#127: How Functional Neurology Helps You Heal | Dr. Paul Link

A doctor of functional neurology joins us to explain a new, cutting edge healing science that’s used to heal dysfunction in our bodies and minds, and help us live and perform at our best. It’s already being used by professional athletes and even Navy SEALs. 

We dive into what it is and how it can help you, plus:

• Why people from divorced families struggle more in relationships from a scientific standpoint

• Why one-size-fits-all doesn’t work with healing - it must be personal and custom

• 3 amazing stories of people who’ve benefited from functional neurology, including a

  boy who was confined to a wheelchair that was able to walk

Email Dr. Paul Link 

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey:[00:00:00] I'm joined today by a doctor of functional neurology. It's a new and cutting edge healing science that's used to heal dysfunction in our bodies and in our minds and really just help us to live and perform at our best. And it's already being used by professional athletes in hockey, football, and basketball, and even by Navy SEALs.

And so in this episode, we dive into what it is and how it can help you. Plus we touch on why people from divorced families struggle more in relationships from a bit of a scientific. Point of view. We also discuss why a one size fits all approach to healing just doesn't work. It really needs to be personalized and customize each person.

And my guest also shares three amazing stories of people who've benefited a ton from functional neurology, including a boy who is actually confined to a wheelchair that was then able to walk. Thanks to the therapy, really good stuff. Stay with us. Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family, so you can break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is Episode [00:01:00] 127.

We're so thrilled that so many of you found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard awesome stories, awesome feedback. One listener said this. I love your podcast. I listened to one of the episodes today and found it very engaging and professional. I sent a link to the podcast to people I know who need it.

Thanks again for the amazing work you are doing. Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Blackstone films and a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of millennials said video is their top content choice. And that's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that?

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But that's where Blackstone [00:02:00] Films can help you. They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel they can create trailers, promo videos and commercials, uh, social media. Videos, documentaries, uh, fundraising videos, and even courses. We actually produced two video courses with them.

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My guest today is Dr. Paul Link. He's a functional [00:03:00] neurologist and director of clinical education at NeuroSync, as well as a staff clinician at St. Joseph's Chiropractic in Steubenville, Ohio, and CERO, S E R O in Canada. He has published over 100 papers and case studies in neurology, ranging from concussion, ADHD, mood disorders, and various genetic conditions.

Uh, he applies an approach of without drugs and surgery to neurology and wellness by using eye movements and other neurologic pathways to assist in brain health and healing. Really fascinating conversation. Here's my conversation with Dr. Paul.

Joey: Dr. Paul, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. I'm really excited for this conversation.

Dr. Paul:when, when you reached out, uh, you know, realizing, uh, doing a lot of work on your background and looking into, I realized this is not only incredible, but it's an incredible opportunity for me to not just spread the word of functional neurology, but, uh, get a chance to learn from, uh, Another patient demographic and population.

I've been working a lot with so I think it's going to be a great from both [00:04:00] ends

Joey: I appreciate that. And now I just heard a little bit about functional neurology. I know I mentioned to you that. A couple of siblings of mine have been through some functional neurology treatment for some injuries, but also just kind of general health. And, I am really intrigued by what they've told me so far, but I really don't know a lot about it.

So I'm going to be learning alongside our audience to this conversation, which I'm excited about. So starting out, you know, we have this audience of people who come from broken families, whether it's just a lot of dysfunction at home or their parents, you know, maybe are divorced. And so I'm curious, like, why should they care about what we're about to talk about

Dr. Paul: When it comes

to when it comes to functional neurology I think one of the best ways to look at it is not just that it applies solely to those who are sick or going through avenues of health abnormalities or anything because you know One of the things that makes functional neurology unique and what it is in general is if you can imagine living in a in the gray zone.

You know, a lot of the most medical community when everything is, it's black or it's white, you know, you pass this test or you didn't and nothing more than that. I mean, there's plenty of [00:05:00] times you go for health screenings. You're doing lab work and everything is showing up. It's either good or it's out of range and nothing in between, you know If you can imagine functional neurology And this sort of triage we've been able to create with our colleagues and and everything in our in our clinics is that we're taking that gray area and Making that applicable to the masses So you don't necessarily have to have had a recent concussion or a patient with autism. I mean, the, the subset of population you could reach is, is honestly infinite. I mean, we've seen people, and I've been fortunate to see people over the years from Olympic athletes. Uh, you named the professional champion. you know, he had this celebrity world preparing for movie roles all the way down to even just, uh, you know, fortune 500 CEOs or average Joe in business who just realizes that There's little finite things that's making their day to day off. And that could cost the company millions of dollars, or that could cost them their contract year and their [00:06:00] final year of play all the way down to this could be a major, driving point from them to go from maybe in a wheelchair to having their own control of their activities, daily living. So there's, there's no, avenue that can't reach to, and it's really just taking those little fine tunings.

And once you understand the neurology and how to apply it. whatever patients in front of you could start clean slate and just kind of direct care as you need be, um, and pulling from a lot of other professions. And that's kind of what makes it unique is that it really is that combination between T. O.

T. Athletic training, classic neurology. It's taking all these avenues and just You know, like a Venn diagram placing the overlap and just pulling the tools that you need.

Joey: So good. I've been thinking more lately about this whole idea of kind of like psychological drag or just drag in life. Meaning, you know, you imagine if you're trying to run fast. You can run fast. you know, in a lot of scenarios, except if you have like an injury or maybe you're running and you have a [00:07:00] parachute on your back and you're trying to run really fast, but you're not really getting anywhere to, to me, it almost seems like in life when we, when there's all this like untreated trauma on the emotional end, or maybe some physiological, you know, problems that we're just overlooking or ignoring.

Um, it creates that drag in our life. So we want to run fast. We want to get up the mountain. We want to, you know, do all these things. And yet we have all these problems that are holding us back. And so I think it's, uh, I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I think healing can't just be one sided too.

It needs to be multidimensional. And that's what I hear that you guys do in your profession, which is amazing. So I know, I'm sure you have so much to say to that. I wanted to, and we'll dive deeper into all of this, but I wanted to just kind of start with the definition, like what is functional neurology and why did you in particular get into it?

Dr. Paul: And so functional neurology Is that application between taking the classic neurology and it's really applying that without drugs and surgery So you're applying neurology by looking at the five to six senses you have, you know Not the sixth sense [00:08:00] like the like one of the very good movies with hailey joel But you're looking at the sixth sense we'll call it the vestibular system, right?

So you're just taking You Your visual system, your hearing, your sensation to touch, smell, right? You're, you're taking these systems and you're understanding how they really enter the brain what the outputs are of them from there. So you're looking at the bedside and you're looking at, you know, one of the things that we utilize the most of is eye movement. Because if you're talking about, the eyes are the window to the soul, you know, the window to the brain. So you're going to get majority of your information that's going to keep you alive. Okay. off your visual information. from there you can utilize, and we're not looking at you, what you'd have from an optometrist or an ophthalmologist, but rather we're looking at those fine motor movements.

What are the fine tunings that make this eye movement in particular intricate. And then every little defect or deficiency in there. Tells us that an area of the brain is not working so well. So you're just taking the [00:09:00] senses and you're taking those classical bedside examinations from, okay, touch my finger, touch your nose. And you're not just saying, okay, yes, they check those boxes, but we're looking at a little bit more fine tune to say, well, did they touch it with the fingertip? Was there a little bit of a tremor? Was it smooth? Did they miss? Was one area a little bit faster or slower? Because every one of those little deficiencies or inadequacies is going to tell you a lot about what's going on in the brain. And then you're just taking those areas and understanding where in the brain it's working well and which areas aren't, now how does that apply to that individual's needs? Are they the hockey player that's trying to get ready for the game? Or are they, you know, Joe the accountant who's having difficulty because all of a sudden he's realizing that he's carrying numbers over in the wrong way? And you can find any little flaw in these areas of the pathways and apply to it as much as, you know, they're, they're so far off that they're trying to get back to work with their life, or they're already that super high functional athlete is trying to do it in [00:10:00] performance enhancement and actually kind of we talked about before, which is, which is funny because it's similar enough, is, you know, I've always described it as like, imagine you're you know, you're gonna run a 40 yard dash and you just be running, you know, your time is whatever, five seconds. Now take the same thing and take those, you know, goggles from the D. A. R. E. program and put them on. You know, you're going every which way, you're off in traffic, you're falling, stumbling. It's the same area. If your brain, because the three main jobs is to take the world in, process it, and respond to it. If there's deficiencies in any one of those, then anything you do It's just a consequence of an area of the brain not working so well. Some of those could be heart arrhythmias, they could be increased or decreased hormone production, issues, any and everything, reading problems. I mean, there is no deficiency. That you can't look at, at least by analyzing the brain and getting a pretty darn good jumpstart to what's going on.

Joey: Fascinating. Uh, I'm so excited to learn more and to get into kind of the nitty gritty practicals of the [00:11:00] day to day and how you'd treat someone. We'll, we'll get to that. Um, but I am curious, you know, when, yeah, I, I'm, I'm excited to, um, to get into all that, but I, I wanted to ask about the, um, difference between maybe traditional neurology, which I think a lot of people will think of when they hear, you know, the word neurology. So how does maybe your training and your experience differ from a traditional neurologist?

Dr. Paul: Yeah, so, and I know one thing, Jack, was where did my background come from? So, if you look at traditional neurology, majority of traditional neurology, and it's certainly not knocked on the system, but majority of traditional neurology is understanding and looking at things through certain imaging, it could be CT, MRI, and trying to find those certain flaws.

But you have to realize in majority of traditional neurology, their job is to make sure that you are going to be alive. As long as you are without traumas and everything is going to be fine from that application, that is pretty darn efficient and sufficient for that time. Functional neurology is really dealing in the finite and getting you back to [00:12:00] your highest health state. And my background from there came similar enough, but honestly by somewhat of a mistake, um, I was in school. I went to college, interestingly, to bowl and golf, but I went there. So my background is, uh, biology and analytical chemistry. Um, and then from there, I was fortunate enough to work on some of the early beginnings of the human genome project and some, some mice studies with different strains with. Um, autism and some of the original BTBR strains and, you know, this one has, uh, some, some corpus callosum difficulties um, and lesions. So I was fortunate to come out of that world, um, and in the beginnings of the human genome project, everyone felt that if we could get an understanding of certain allele structures, and we can get an idea of the code. And we could program out and figure out what areas of this is making a particular protein abnormality that's causing someone to have Parkinson's or if we find the [00:13:00] autism gene, you know, we're going to really be able to turn the world and very early on. They realized that it doesn't work so easily that way.

And it's, it's gonna be much more difficult to get that. And we also realized on, I was fortunate to have some very good guidance in the beginning. And one of the professors had said if you right now you have no financial obligations, you have no reason to be here. You're a junior in college. I think some of the answers are going to be in neurology. There's a course coming up. It was a neuro function. Uh, a uh, neurophysiology of pain. If you like that course, I think maybe neurology would be for you and head the route of med school. So. did it took that course. My background was not whatsoever in, uh, neurology or anatomy. Uh, a nurse, dad's a mortician.

So I was around health from every avenues. And that's kind of where I did majority of my schoolwork and studying was just sitting in a doctor's office. And so I saw it from the big picture, but I'd never been around neurologist or town didn't have one. So to me, that was an un, uh, sort of an unrouted area.

So. All [00:14:00] I did was just take that course and realize this makes a whole lot of sense to me. Uh, applied and was getting ready to go for, uh, you know, an MD PhD. And about a month before school was working at a golf course where I did for about 10 years, mowing fairways and, you know, everything. And, it took a little break in like the early, early days of YouTube back.

And it was just like, you know, cats playing on the piano. And I went on there and found a video that we had watched, um, in school, uh, About this, uh, about this little girl, she was on Oprah, and she had, uh, Aledinia. just thought, well, let me rewatch was really interesting. Let me see if I can just, you know, spend my time reading a little bit here while I'm waiting. I came across a video of Dr. Kerrig when he was doing his, uh, Connie Chung interview and realized, um, you know, whatever whatever he's doing, don't have anything about his background, but whatever he's doing, this is the route I want to go found out, um, he was, uh, a chiropractor and then I thought that's what I need to do.

And about an hour later, I emailed the [00:15:00] school and said, I'm not coming and. a few months off and waited for the next course to come through and went the route to be a chiropractor as a base and then went and took courses for the Kerrigan Institute and realized later on Dr. Kerrig was so much more.

He was, you know, never to step over that. He was the founding father of functional neurology and created everything from the ground up and just an absolute. brilliant mind that gave us all a tremendous foundation to build upon. and I was fortunate later on to go, um, work for him and Dr. Antonucci at Plasticity and have a great background that the first patients I saw, and really the only cases I saw were ones that. Um, had been, you know, 10, 12 different places and, you know, I've been to you name the clinic and didn't get the results they wanted. So it made some of the work a little bit more difficult, but in a way, it gave a lot of avenues that we realized there's so many areas over here that these patients are going through very common diagnoses, or at least different types of diagnostic procedures. But they're missing a [00:16:00] very large picture that's giving a lot of our answers. So we're able to just super specialize into that. And that was I was very fortunate that my first job, um, right out of school, actually, while I was in school, was just being around, you know, some of the most brilliant minds in neurology and allowed me to publish a lot of papers and research.

But that gave me a very, uh, quick education into the application of neurology from the textbook that you don't see. So. That's where my background came out of. It was, it was really more than from genetics, right to neurology and, and then just really seeing the overlap from the cellular level. So, also kind of also demonstrates that there, there is no avenue that you, you can't go into.

Joey: Wow. What a story. And. I'm so grateful for people like you and the doctors you, you know, you studied with, and I saw that you've done a ton of research on this as well. Like you've published so many papers, things like that too. So it's just so fascinating. And, um, what a privilege to, to just be at the forefront of this kind of new, uh, field of [00:17:00] study and, and the way in which you're helping people.

So my goodness, I'm honored to talk with you. I, uh, I wanted to. Maybe paint a little bit of a clearer picture on top of what you've already explained about kind of what parts of the body, function neurology focuses on. You already mentioned the senses and the sixth sense, like you said. Um, take us a little bit deeper there.

Dr. Paul: Yeah, so if you could imagine, we talked about it a little bit, there's, there's no limitations to neurology, but imagine a situation where, let's say an individual is going through, oh, they're about to do some public speaking and, you know, you're about to give that speech or, or, you know, you're about to hit that golf ball, whatever it might be.

And then the heart rate starts going. Nothing in your environment is necessarily abnormal. You could be around people that you're completely comfortable with, but just an interpretation of settings around you allowed for different little intricacies in that autonomic nervous system that now the heart rate's going.

You start to, you know, pupil [00:18:00] sweat. And then performance can lack. Some people will develop certain stutters. Some people will, you know, the golf swing change, all these little intricacies that could occur are motor responses because of a poor interpretation of an environment. Or you can look at also the emotional system, how it plays a role.

Because one of the ways that we look at it is if you can imagine the emotional system being treated just like a motor pathway, no different than if I were to reach out and shake your hand and you would say, okay, well, I'd want to reach my hand out and extend it, you know, grasp and then release and pull back.

You would just look at that and realize the systems that were involved in the frontal lobe and some of the areas in the back part of our brain or cell realm to navigate that and make sure it was nice and smooth and rhythmic. Well, that same type of process is occurring. But in this case, the motor pathway is a limbic response, happiness, sadness.

fear, anxiety. It's, although a little bit different, very, [00:19:00] very similar in terms of its application. So you can have people who, you know, they're getting these different arrhythmias or You look at people who have, um, POTS is a great example, you know, postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome, where their heart rate increases or decreases based upon perception of gravity.

So now you can see the little intricacies where the vestibular system, the areas in your inner ear, how they have a direct influence to postural responses. Because if you were to be laying down, you would imagine that would be a relaxed state and your heart rate would respond as such. But if you were going to sit up and be involved in an activity, you can imagine you'd want to have a blood pressure and heart rate and rhythm that would match that.

Well, if these areas brainstem, are not responding to the environment appropriately, then any output you could have is going to have these aberrancies. And that's why we can look at almost everything, regardless if a person has Parkinson's, concussion, [00:20:00] had, uh, trauma in the past. And we've, you know, um, prior to, to me becoming a functional neurologist long before, and actually then recent, I've been fortunate, um, some of my other current jobs working with, uh, the Navy SEALs and, uh, Uh, the rangers and and a few other components of the military where we can look at these people and not only are they utilizing functional neurology.

for their return to play or their return to battle, but they're also looking at it as how can we get them after they retire after their discharge, how can we get them back into being those, you know, functional members of society because, you know, we hear unfortunate the trauma and the horror stories of, you know, our vets, they go out and represent and serve our country so well, but then they come back and we have these emotional distresses that we can put them in the correct environment.

everything could be and comfort and they're back home. Yet we still have these aberrancies in response. And we realized some of it's not just the environment, but we have to be able to access these [00:21:00] deeper, older parts of our brain that are survival driven. So again, you can realize that there's, there's no, um, areas that you can't serve, but because of that, if we're just looking at those little intricacies, you could see that you can have someone that, That looks like a cardiovascular problem or it mimics, um, changes in, um, you know, you know, we, we've seen changes in, um, pregnancy rates.

We've seen people with changes of different, uh, hormone outputs, increased testosterone or estrogen levels. That are, and certainly not in all cases, but they are, some of them, uh, brain driven responses, and you address these areas of the brain, and the successes are right there, and then when you have, which we're fortunate in, um, in our clinic in Ohio to combine where we say, if we take functional neurology with functional medicine and trauma therapy, and you combine this triad, I mean, you have an incredible response where now you're addressing everything from not only the neurologic, but the [00:22:00] metabolic and a direct input in the, in the limbic system, and I mean, it's just home run time and time again.

Joey: So good. No, I love the holistic approach, and I think so many people would agree that, I hope one day it's everyone would agree, that uh, You know, so much of our medical system is just so like segmented and siloed and we don't look at the human body, the human person like through this holistic lens and that's what I hear you saying, which is like so, so good.

And it's so wise to it makes sense that you're the work that you're doing would be so effective. Because it's not just looking at, you know, an individual symptom and being like, well, it must be this because of this and this, but it's like really saying, well, what else is going on? And, you know, how, yeah.

So I just love the holistic approach.

Dr. Paul: Zach, could you look at, I mean, an example you hear talk about, like in the orthopedic world and PT and OT where they talk like the kinetic change, someone has a knee issue. but it could be coming from the hip or the low back or the ankle. It's really a theory, just neurology's kinetic chain application.

It is those avenues because we could see it time and time again where, uh, you know, I'm a big sports fan and I've [00:23:00] set a game a couple of weeks ago. Won't say which team, but probably easy to find. Um, watched one of my, uh, big MVPs drop down with a knee injury. And was that a knee problem or was that from different areas of the ankle?

You know, big football fan. I'm fortunate to work with some of the leagues and teams, but, um, you know, I've watched some of the players that are on my beloved team, which if you look around close, some of you will find out where they have some soft tissue injuries, and they've been dealing with these for their whole career, and you look and realize, is it a soft tissue issue, which it could be, or if we addressed all these areas in the gym, and we're still having these soft tissue complaints, is it a neurologic response that we Aren't getting the information to the muscles in time and then the output is delayed, you know, no different than we talked about those derogatory before, you know, what if an individual feels as though they're tilted this position and if you were to walk around like this all day, he would certainly have contraction of muscles over here because you'd be trying to pull yourself up all day long.

So if you were going around [00:24:00] because you had a perceived, um, portion of gravity where you felt like you were leaning to the right, as an example. Okay. All of a sudden, you're going to have not only shortened muscles on that right side and elongated ones on the left, but you'd also have a lot of reflexogenic responses all day long trying to pull you left, even though you are up and down, you're perceiving it opposite.

So every response you make would be different, at which point now we're having these, holes and these tears of hamstrings and everything left and right in the league because we're looking at things sometimes solely from a soft tissue response. But if we put someone on these balance plates and we looked at centers of pressure and we combine that with our analysis of eye movements, we can get a better perception as to where does this person feel like they are in space.

and where space is around them, now we can get a better application as to what they should be responding to. And now some of the injury prevention can look a whole lot different. And it's not just, again, in the sports world, that's in everyday life. If you [00:25:00] perceive, um, a new relationship as being, um, you know, tarnished for whatever reason, because it resembles someone you knew before, that's not giving a fresh, clean slate to this new person.

But if we can allow these areas of the brain to have a better interpretation of what's the current environment and be allowed to interpret your settings in a much different way. Some of these responses of PTSD or trauma responses from adoption and everything like that, you know, we can solve these a lot quicker or at least help them along where Um, we're still using traditional therapy responses, but because we're addressing the areas of the brain in conjunction with that or prior to now, these traditional therapies of the talk therapy or the the nutritional therapies and functional medicine because the brain is actually healthy and these tissues are able to respond appropriately.

Now, the successes from those other avenues that the patient tried before that it couldn't quite stick. [00:26:00] Now they're having the success that they didn't have before all because you just addressed the areas of the brain that were really of Concern that weren't looked at because you know, it is taught in school.

Unfortunately, very compartmentalized. Okay. This is the knee This is the temporal this well, how do they work together? Don't worry about that. You just you just prefer them out to somebody else the knee guy will look at that Well, am I ever gonna talk to the knee guy? No, in fact, the patient's not gonna see the knee guy for a year so By the time they go there, they've got other issues.

And you know, now we're lost in the system. But if we're looking at it from a whole, that holistic, and we're looking at it from that connected approach now, now you're addressing things from the source right away. And we're not worried about the knee. We're looking at what the source is and the knee's gonna take care of itself unless there is a knee issue as well.

And now we're dealing with that in the end versus just starting there and hoping and praying we get to the right area. The guesswork's gone. You're making the, uh, you know, invisible visible.

Joey: So good. You made me think of [00:27:00] a switch the U. S. Navy made somewhat recently. I remember hearing that on some of their smaller boats, they would have all these specialists.

on the boats who were just very focused on like one area, like the engineering or, you know, whatever other areas, I don't know, the Navy. and what they, the switch that they made is they made uh, the teams on these boats more generalists. Where they were able to do different things and they weren't maybe so honed in or siloed or compartmentalized, like you said, in one area.

And it's been like a game changer apparently for them. And so some of what I hear you saying is like, certainly you like have such an expertise in this, but in a way, in the right way, you're like more of a generalist. You're looking at the whole system, you're looking at it, um, without, you know, just focusing on one system, not knowing anything about the rest, which is, it makes so much sense to me.

And, uh, You know, it's awesome to hear that you've worked with special operators and with, you know, pro athletes. Cause I just think it speaks to the credibility and how effective this is. Cause what I've seen too, especially in like the medical world or the performance world, the, the best [00:28:00] and most cutting edge things often start there before they get to the general population, because those are the people who like, they want to be at their very best, whether it's Olympians or pro athletes or, you know, people performing at a high level.

And so it's cool to see how it's going to be spread. far and wide, but that you're starting with that group. That's a really good sign for everyone listening. If you want to know something about this, um, so much there. I, uh, I did have a question for you. I was listening to Jordan Peterson the other day, and he was talking about Gottman, uh, Dr.

John Gottman's research. And he was talking about how, you know, Gottman would bring couples to anyone who's not aware that Gottman has studied marriage and especially, Conflict within marriage for over 30 years now and supposedly they can predict with like 94 percent accuracy whether a couple is going to get divorced or not just by observing how they handle conflict and We've gone into this a bit in other episodes, but one of the things that Peterson made me Want to ask you was that they when they're looking at [00:29:00] neurobiological level They're seeing that they're in, in these, um, couples that were conflict is handled poorly, where they follow like the four horsemen of the apocalypse, um, their bodies literally reacting as if there's a predator present, it's what he said.

Could you break that down for us? I'm so fascinated by that.

Dr. Paul: Yeah, without, uh, without naming too many of my exes, well, we can go through that, but it's interesting because you look at some of those areas with, um, with his research, and then there's even some of his other colleagues and people he learned from or looked at it were type A personalities, or this is an alpha versus a beta, maybe, maybe we do need always the pack leader, and thus the next person in the relationship has to, by default, be that, that next personality type or type B, and it's not necessary that way, but And if you could look at it from a few different ways, you know, if you can imagine, and it's not like this in all, in all cases, and it is very individualized, but one of the things that occurs in this was, if you're trying to, if one of the things you're trying to do, and no matter what, and one of the ways that I just do it, it's just easier for [00:30:00] me if I, if I look at it, because, you know, neurology is, is certainly complicated and there's, you know, You know, dozens of books over there about it, but, you know, in the end it is complicated.

There's a lot of, you know, tiny intricate names of these nuclei and it's Latin. This guy's French over here. You know, there's a lot of those areas and you're trying to figure out that compartmentalized system, but if you just imagine and you take almost that, um, like Uh, you're on the island approached by yourself or you're in the middle of the woods and you think, okay, if I was to survive this, what would be the adaptations I would make?

How would I evolve to whatever the surroundings are around me? But if a person in the area, in certain areas of their brain, in some of these back areas of the brain, these higher areas in the brainstem, that give you a good sense of where you are in the world and where the world is around you. And it combines a lot of things.

memories, both short and long term, uh, you know, facial recognition, you know, your posture and balance. Cause again, if you're, you know, if you're like, I, I trust you, but let's say I interpret you as a super [00:31:00] strong individual. I don't mind maybe walking too close to the cliff because he'll save me. But if I'm with someone who's super tiny and I think, man, if I, if I jump here, he can't grab me, you know, all of a sudden your interpretation of the same person, but now exposed in a much different sense.

Maybe it's not so good. Maybe you move to an area where you think, you know, my partner here, they this is good We're compatible Until all of a sudden something brings into the home and now you're having the argument who sleeps closer to the door frame, right? Who's who gets who gets the other side of the bed?

It's, it's, it's just taking the environment and allowing these little intricate changes. But if these areas in the brain are either causing anxiety, where you only analyze the negatives of the situations, then sometimes you only view your partner in, can they only help me in the negatives? But from the other way too, if you only analyze things in the positive sense, You're kind of dumbfounded when things don't go a certain way.

And it's that way in these relationships and these analytics where if these areas of the brain are not working well, that are [00:32:00] giving you a good timestamp to the current present and being able to remove that and say, look, that that unfortunate thing that happened to me 10 years ago, it's always going to be with me.

Cause that is a survival component that you carry over, but that wasn't this person. They still get the clean slate and then we're going to use those things. Cause if we see the comparisons, you know, those red flags, Then we have those conversations. But if everything is automatically, everybody with brown hair is the devil, then those types of things are not going to really carry over going forward.

That's going to give you the success in life. But if you're looking at them, because we can look at these areas of the brain through, through a vast number of uh, diagnostic criteria and everything, You know, now we can get a better picture as to what's going on in this person's brain. What are the responses?

Cause we're not just looking at it from those areas of the brain. But also downstream, we're looking at, we're measuring the autonomics. We're looking at, you know, the blood pressure and heart rate bilaterally. We're putting them in different posture, but we're, we're exposing them to different [00:33:00] environments.

We're not, we don't expose them to 500 people to understand how they respond, but we need to at least tax the system to figure out if we know what's going on in this person's brain, and then they're telling us because they're in front of us now and giving us this idea of how it's affecting them in the, in a negative way.

We can really design a direct game plan for them unique to everything else customized for them that gives them a very, very, um, high success probability that we can solve these things or at least give them much better tools and direction that their life is successful.

Joey: Love that. And I love the customized approach.

That was something I don't think I realized coming into this interview, um, how customized it is. And that makes a lot of sense how it's hard to maybe give, you know, perfect general answers. But once you understand the specifics of someone's situation, you're able to really dig into that and say, this is what you need to do, which I'm really excited to go deeper into that.

Um, if I'm understanding that, right.

Dr. Paul: I can give you an example of that. [00:34:00] There was a, there was a really good, uh, papers done, uh, probably a handful of years ago. My question goes 10 years ago at this point. where it analyzed a group of students who were just having reading difficulties. You know, they were, all they, all they knew was that this individual, they just took 30 kids in a classroom, they said, all right, all we know is these individuals are reading X amount of levels below their grade level.

So then they took a couple of different customized approaches into how they did it. They put one category in where they looked at And they applied no differences in their training. And they said, all right, if we look at eye movement analytics and these saccades, if we're looking at them saying. Or if they're going to jump from word to word to word, if their ocular motor approaches are inaccurate, then they're reading the same line twice.

They're skipping lines. So now they're reading comprehension scores, of course, are going to be poor, because they're not even getting the whole story. So when you're asking, you know, where did Spot run? You're going, who's Spot? You know, if you're looking at it from that way, if you can't read accurately, And [00:35:00] that's going to tank your reading comprehension scores.

So those individuals were given certain eye movement criteria, just generalized ones, and put over here. The other ones who were having the reading comprehension issues, they did other types of classic maneuvers that were more customized to them, and they were put in their category. In the end of the 30, everyone jumped at least three to four grade levels, and all they did was do this for 10 minutes a day for two weeks.

But it's taking that customized approach and realizing the kids sit next to you, they're Maybe their exercises aren't going to work for you. You're both struggling in reading, but for vast different reasons, it's all customizable. Once you understand what that person needs, I mean, sky's the limit.

Joey: So good.

And I love that approach because it's so, like you said, individualized, personalized, customized. Like that's, I think what people need. I think that's like one size fits all. We've seen for so many reasons, just doesn't. Doesn't work well. So, man, I'm loving this. I'm curious if there's any typical neurological, um, dysfunctions that are associated with emotional trauma.

And I know, [00:36:00] you know, we're talking to an audience, obviously, who comes from, you know, broken families, traumatic family situations, whether it's high dysfunction, like I mentioned, or divorce. So I'm curious if there's any kind of typical telltale signs, symptoms that come up neurologically for someone coming from that background.

Dr. Paul: That's a great question. That's where, although it's customizable and similar, there are some patterns that certainly follow. Now there's certainly types that, you know, this one's going to be the anomaly, but a lot of times, and what's interesting is, and I've been fortunate to do a lot of, recent studies with this and see a lot of, recent patients on this in the last few years where patients who have gone through traumas and not just relationship traumas, have very similar mimicking of areas of the brain that aren't working and responding so well as those who were from, uh, who were adopted and a lot of them adopted from, from other countries who either had, um, you know, unfortunate past histories that they may or may not know.

they're in, you know, phenomenal loving families currently, but have [00:37:00] similar areas. And one of the areas that we're noticing a lot of times is not only these back areas of the brain in this posterior parietal cortex, it's, you know, giving these responses or should give these responses into, you know, time space relationship.

I mean, this is where Einstein was very good and, you know, seeing those extra dimensions that you can't see through the naked eye because it gives you an interpretation of self versus world. Well, that would definitely be skewed if, again, you're analyzing a situation with yourself, a relationship, a newly adopted parent that is, you know, you're perceiving as a way from before because your subconscious wasn't working so well.

And some of the others are these almost perseverations or these wind ups in these areas of the frontal lobe. Uh, in the areas of executive function, uh, mainly up front is when the problem is area 11, it's the orbital frontal area. And that's like your gatekeeper to the emotional limbic system. So that would be, you're about to have a emotional response, happiness, sadness, and [00:38:00] it's going to pass through this orbital frontal area as well, uh, to give some of these action commands to these much deeper areas in the brain.

Well, if those areas are overworking or working a little bit slower than they need to, uh, then the response is skewed. And what's interesting is we've seen a lot of patients that, especially from adoptive families that still have their primitive reflexes, which should be attenuated, you know, by two, two and a half, depending on, um, the type of, of the type of relapse.

Some of them are gone by six months. Some of them last two, two and a half years, possibly. We have some patients that I've seen that, you know, 13, 14 years old. that still have these pre motor reflexes because these areas of the brain in the front haven't developed because of these areas of perception that these areas of the frontal lobe are working well, but these areas are super deficient.

All of a sudden you address these and you say, well, of course they can't make an appropriate decision and they have these very odd behaviors or they act immature in these other areas. Then it's because areas in the brain haven't [00:39:00] developed well. And so, like I said, a lot of it's that area that gives you that current time space relationship.

Where am I? Where's the world around me? As you can imagine, that's going to be very critical if you're going to analyze an environment. And these other areas are also heavily involved with not only emotions, but emotional memories is the key one. And those areas, uh, quite often are deficient or lagging behind in the development.

And we could address those, uh, you know, noninvasively, uh, pretty successfully.

Joey: So fascinating. Uh, one of the things in the research that I've seen is that the biggest area of life that's impacted when your parents get divorced in particular is your own future relationships, especially your future marriage.

And I'm curious kind of how you, I have my way of interpreting that as like a lay person and someone who's been through, you know, been through that. I'm curious how you might interpret that, um, neurologically. In addition to what you've already said, why is it such a struggle? Why is it such a struggle for, you know, like one of the ways I articulated it in college was, it was [00:40:00] like, man, it feels like my relationships, my dating relationships in particular are just like so much more difficult, so much harder than my friends, from what I'm hearing, my friends.

Say who come from maybe healthy intact families. And so yeah, it was always baffling to me and marriage and you know, a lot of ways you know has been a challenge and you know, we've worked through things for sure and are in a better spot, but But I we've seen that trend and I think that's why so often you know, it's just cycle that repeats itself like we talked about Before recording is that, you know, we end up coming from these broken families and we don't really know how to build healthy relationships and we build unhealthy relationships, which leads to broken marriages and broken families and this whole thing.

So I'm just curious, like, from your vantage point, um, people have heard me talk about it, but I'm curious from your vantage point, like, why, why do we end up repeating that? And what's going on like below the surface that we don't maybe talk about?

Dr. Paul: Yeah, if you can imagine that, and that's point two. And also some of what we talked about, Cameron, if you look at, you know, the, the rates now, especially of, of divorce, and you look at [00:41:00] the, difficulties in relationships and, and certainly social media doesn't help in their perceptions of they feel, uh, you know, an appropriate relationship is, and, you know, the, the higher numbers of even open relationships, which is, it's, it's, it's a whole nother box of whatever's, but if, if you look at as that becomes normalized, You have to look at some of the other areas too of one that's a massive subset of population.

That's that's definitely going to be needing care But in that interpretation of it, you know, you're at most times not always but you know There is a you know a product of your environment But if you can imagine if you at a young age or whatever age you had relationship difficulties You have to make sense of it because again you have to be able to survive The next avenue, you're still a living organism that has to adapt.

You don't know if it was because of a trauma or you, you stepped on a landmine. The reality is a negative behavior occurred. And thus you have to make sure that you can analyze those things differently. Well, now I know what a landmine looks like versus now. I know what a bad relationship looks like and what signs to [00:42:00] look for.

So these areas have to adapt to it. But if you look at it from there's what we consider plasticity versus negative plasticity, you know, for those who aren't either heard of the terms aren't quite sure, you know, plasticity is that ability of the brain to make, you know, microscopic connections. between other areas of the brain.

You know, when they talk about like muscle memory, the muscles don't remember anything. It's these areas of the brain and the motor cortex that are able to produce much more hardwired pathways to make that type of movement more efficient. Well, there's plasticity, good thing, but you could have negative plasticity where you have, you know, a wind up where all of a sudden you, you see something, all of a sudden you develop a stutter, or you, you know, you see water on the right and all you think of is, well, don't block it right.

And you start pulling them left all the time in golf, you know, whatever those movements are, you have ad adapted avoidant behaviors. So if you're not able to fully address. what the reasons are why you Don't quite have something because maybe [00:43:00] you were exposed to Your parents doing something that you didn't know or all of a sudden you just think are all relationships going to end in divorce I thought my parents loved each other, you know, whatever those things could be if You aren't, not only necessarily, you're going to make sense of it, maybe even you feel like you made sense of it, but these areas in the subconscious, you know, are waving their fingers saying, no, you didn't.

You have these avoidant behaviors and because of that, now you develop these negative plasticity and now your whole world and adaptation is a consequence of just something that happened in the past that may or may not have even directly affected you, but now it has. So, that's some of the things that occur.

But again, when you look at it and being able to make sense of it through combination of, you know, trauma therapy, functional neurology, there's even been great research coming out in the last few years from, you know, Harvard and some of my colleagues up in Canada with psilocybin mushrooms and looking at those areas in psychedelics and being able to hit these Areas in the limbic [00:44:00] system and frontal lobe, you know, all these different avenues that could be addressed You can have an ability to look deeper within and make sense of those things because otherwise you do develop the avoidant behaviors And yeah, your successes and the relationships are probably going to be diminished because of it.

Joey: So good Let me I want to make sure I understand this and i'll just kind of give you a little bit of a readback And what i'm hearing is that We kind of subconsciously and even like neurobiologically pick up patterns in life, patterns of behavior, ways of treating people. So if like our parents are, you know, like one of the things I observed growing up and my parents would be the first one to tell you this is they just didn't handle conflict very well.

And so, you know, they would argue, things would get loud and then one or both of them would just kind of walk away and nothing was really resolved. And so for me going into relationships, I felt like, my goodness, I really have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to conflict. It feels really scary. It's a lot, like you said, easier to just kind of avoid that and tiptoe around and not talk about maybe hard things.

And so, on a brain level, it sounds like that's just kind of what my brain learned to [00:45:00] do. And that it truly can be rewired, but like you're saying, we need to first kind of go to that place of, okay, this is what I learned. And then this is kind of how I'm dealing with it now. And this is what maybe I want to be doing in the future differently.

 and, That muscle memory, like you mentioned, just like with swinging a bat or a golf club or hockey stick, like we can train our brains even in relationships to do things differently too, which I think is super hopeful because what I've seen a lot with this audience too, because me being one of them is, we, I think it feel really hopeless.

We can feel really helpless. We can feel, uh, fall into kind of the whole victim mentality thing of being like, well, I'm kind of screwed. Came from a really messed up family, broken family, never really saw a healthy relationship. I have this maybe slew of unhealthy relationships that I fell into. I don't know if I'm capable of even building a good marriage of, you know, and all that.

And so I think it could lead to this dark space. So this is just very hopeful even.

Dr. Paul: Yeah, no, it's incredibly, you know, you have it not only from personal experience where you go, oh, no, this one didn't work out. All hope is gone. No, it's not. No, it's not. It's not at all. In fact, you probably are going to gain a whole lot [00:46:00] more from it if you have an ability to look at why that one didn't work out.

Now you have an entire, you know, new line of questioning or adaptation to apply to it. I'll be the first that, you know, it didn't always work. I was necessarily, um, for myself and some of my friends and family around me. But now when you can look at it from a different approach and it, you know, maybe as an instant, but if you have those resources around you and not necessarily solely just a functional neurologist, but those friends and family around you that you could bounce the ideas off of.

If you're given a better blueprint as to what to ask and realize that, okay, given this environment, what can I do next? Now you have a much better chance of success than, than not addressing those things. And instantaneously. Um, just bottling it up and go, Oh, that's, that's it for me. It's, it's not, it's not

Joey: beautiful.

I love it. So, so inspiring. And I want to get a little bit more, um, kind of nitty gritty in terms of what, if someone were to come to see you, like imagine someone's listening right now and they want to make an appointment with you and they were to come and see you, like, what would that look like? What [00:47:00] would the first appointment look like?

If they were to tell you like, yeah, You know, even like, especially with this audience, I come from a broken family. These are my struggles. I have emotional problems like anxiety, depression, loneliness. I, you know, maybe have behavior, uh, bad habits in my life. Um, I have, you know, relationship struggles like we were talking about.

Um, yeah. What would the first appointment look like? How would you assess them? I'm curious, kind of the whole nine years.

Dr. Paul: No, that's a, that's a great one because, you know, when you hear functional neurology go, yeah, well, what is it? What do I do? What are you actually doing here? This guy talked about PTOT, balance this, this person's falling off a cliff.

You know, with functional neurology and what the first appointments look like generally, um, I'll do a screening first and, and have a conversation with the person just to make sure I understand what's going on. I don't need a full detailed history and that stuff. I want to first understand is functional neurology going to work for this person?

Because there might be a population where it's, necessarily not and not always the case, but if they are under maybe certain medications that they have to come off of or they're [00:48:00] hospitalized currently in those things, or, you know, we've, I mean, we've been fortunate that we've seen people in comas and locked in syndrome.

So you are not limited by what those are. But we just want to make sure that is this going to work for you? And to be honest with you, the majority of the patients that it works for are ones that it's open for. If you're coming in and you really have no, uh, want or desire to improve, one of the things that makes functional neurology, somewhat limited is the fact that it's also limited by your ability to, you know, get to appointments and work together on those things.

And there's home exercises, but not as complicated. But that first appointment after the screening, we say, okay, Yeah, this is a case I could help. This is something this is working. We could work with these areas. Your first appointment is combination of almost an interview a history of what's going on a lot of question answer back and forth, followed by it's a pretty detailed physical exam.

I mean, it's usually our couple minutes longer or more. I mean, we've had some two hour exams, three hour exams. We've [00:49:00] had some that are, you know, half hour. And what we'll do is we're going to analyze those senses. We're going to look at a few different pieces of technology. We're going to do some bedside exams.

We're going to do the classic finger, nose, finger. We're going to shine the light in the eyes and look at pupil responses, but we're also going to do posturography and balance testing. We're going to look at, um, analysis of eye movements from tracking targets, pursuits, jumping from target to target saccades, um, optic kinetics, vestibular reflexes in all different planes.

Because again, we're looking at for the intricacies. You're telling me maybe you're having relationship difficulties or you're having trouble with balance or back pain or, um, you're having trouble playing your sport or you have a tremor, you know, we're just looking to figure out, okay, where's the breakdown that's causing this output that you don't, that we don't need so much.

And we're looking at those senses specific to you. We might have these general platforms that we're looking at the eye movements, the balance tends to testing the pinwheel sensation. We're looking at [00:50:00] the autonomics. You know, we're, we're looking and listening to the heart rate and different various positions, and we're doing a pretty detailed examination.

Like I said, it's going to take, you know, sometimes an hour to two hours quite often, but that's going to allow us a big picture is to figure out what areas in the brain are working well and which areas need addressing. And what does that have to do with what you're here for? Then we create that customized plan specific for you.

And, um, the way I work and research is, has demonstrated to be the most efficient and, um, also due to some of the schedules that we all have. Um, the way we generally worked with is an intensive model, which means to say, generally, you're going to see me three times a day or three to five days and your first appointment is going to take, you know, that maybe a couple hours, a little bit more into the analytics and figure out what's going on with you.

And then right when you come back in, we're starting that treatment plan. And that's again, that combination of whatever you need. It could be a, catered version of vestibular vision [00:51:00] therapy. Uh, some, some of the balance training, some of the movements and the fine tuning. I mean, some of it is you, I've had PT before.

Oh, teens you have, and we're using that as the blanket terminology, but we're applying it specific to you for what these reasons are. in combination with many other areas. So you're having that next appointment, you know, generally that's, we'll say an hour, a couple more hours off. And then you're coming back that third time and we're just repeating those treatments then for the next few days and making those micro changes based off what we see.

Cause each before and after each exam or our appointment, rather we're looking at, okay, where are we at? Where do we need to make those adaptations? Because if we're doing something, if, if I, you know, move a patient's head and vestibular rehab, I should be able to retest. Some of these areas in the eye movements or the balance and I should be able to see a micro change and if we're seeing Those changes already Instantly, we know we're on the right thing.

If not, then we need to change that exercise right away So before you even leave that first appointment, we have a pretty clear I'd understanding [00:52:00] of where at least we need to start with your exercise. It's not guesswork. It's not oh, you have a concussion Well, this is what we do for concussion. I mean, I've no idea we're gonna do it yet I have no idea what you have.

I have no idea what we're going to do, but we're going to figure out now specific for you. And that's, that's how each appointment works. So generally you're with, me for, you know, three to four hours a day for at least three to five days. Yeah, we've been fortunate with them. We do that pre and post measurements, um, you know, that at about 90 to 95 percent of cases were at or exceeded, um, whatever the goals were for the week.

That's one thing we also do is keep a lot of stats on, um, from sleep performance, which is, which is one that's always been a residual that I've only ever had a handful that have come in for sleep abnormalities. But generally sleep is affected because these areas of the brain not working so, so well. Um, but we're, we're tracking sleep.

We're tracking the heart rate and rhythm. We're looking at sometimes for some people their blood work pre and post. We're looking at all these intricacies and um, now we're able to make some, [00:53:00] some pretty substantial gains in, in a small, small window.

Joey: Yeah, that's incredible. Within three to five days, and I imagine you're kind of like setting the body and the brain up on a path to continue healing itself to, so it doesn't just stop past the, you know, the three to five days and someone comes back for more, but you're really trying to Um, from what I understand, keep the body going forward.

Is that right?

Dr. Paul: A hundred percent. I mean, for no, no reason. Then, uh, when you first told me your name, I still remember it. You know, that was a pathway. I didn't know that was a, that was a stimuli. I didn't know. And all of a sudden, well, now I know this person's name and I can remember that going forward.

It's that same concept. We're just applying it to, well, this person had a tremor. We want to make a little bit smoother. This person has some balance issues. We're trying to improve just by increasing and changing the stimuli in the brain. You're making instantaneous adaptations. But we want the adaptations to be, you know, in the direction where it's more symmetric and more appropriate versus, you know, that negative plasticity and, and they hold, and we still give you exercises to do at home for X [00:54:00] amount of period of time.

Again, that's all, that's all part of the whole, whole process and cater to you. But now, because of that, we're having a plan specific for you, and we know it's going to stick and hold, and in those cases where you have a degenerative condition or a neurodegenerative condition, you know, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, well, if we know the trajectory is going to be downward, if every so often we can recommend you come in for a boost, if you plateau in a condition that the trajectory is downward, that's an improvement the way I'm looking at it.

But for all these other cases, if you're down here We can give you these boosts up and you're not going to come back down because, you know, uh, uh, these other conditions are not, um, you know, necessarily neurodegenerative. They can be, if they're not addressed though. So by addressing them and getting you back on the right path, I mean, we're, we're stopping the probability or minimizing it that we can have a lot more of these other things down the road.

Like we look at, you know, multiple head injuries have a sevenfold increase of causing Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, you know, [00:55:00] but if that's non treated for treating those, you know, we're, we're much more minimizing the risk of that. And that's, that's what we're trying to do is not only help you for now, you know, But how can we continue to success, set you up for success down the road?

Because in plenty of times, you know, we can exceed your goals and now it's okay. Well, what else do you want to work on? We got that. So what else do we need if we need to come back down the road? Cause now you want to, you know, have a new performance goal and we're all for it. But otherwise, you know, what else can we do for you?

Because you're not just limited by, and we want to keep your balance. We want to get your eye movements there. What are some other things that's carrying over your daily living? Or your, your relationship issues or and the other thing is to how else we working in conjunction with your providers back home.

Who else do we need to work within this? If that's the case, you know, we definitely come manage with, you know, I said in our, in our clinic, functional medicine and trauma therapy. But if we need to do additional things. You know, we're always open and always for it. And that's again, it's creating that catered plan for that person

Joey: makes so much sense.

And I love that approach, like [00:56:00] how you can have those touch points in the future if you need them or want to improve or prevent a bad condition from getting worse. Um, but you're not necessarily signing up for life. I had a friend recently tell me that he was having some back problems and, uh, he wanted to go to a chiropractor, but he was like, eh, I don't know.

He kind of felt like he was going to be signing up for like a life of adjustments, like a lifetime of adjustments. But he went to a chiropractor who was, sounds like really competent and the chiropractor was like, no, we'll do two adjustments and you should be good to go. Um, so I love that approach instead of like, you know, They needed to pop a pill for the rest of your life or something like that, which not putting people down who have a condition that needs that.

But, um, but I love this approach better and no, so good. And on that note, I'm just curious if you have any success stories of patients you've worked with who maybe were in this one condition and then they were to work with you and then they're able to improve and be in this better spot in life.

Dr. Paul: And so I've been quite fortunate to work with a lot of different, uh, I said from athletes to Average bank, but I'll, [00:57:00] lemme think.

I, I would say the best one, I'll give a, it was a week that was pretty impactful, uh, uh, for me. And, and I was working in a, in a, clinic and, and, and then I start. In Florida where, um, I generally see two to three patients a week, which is kind of how you do it when you average out, you know, how many patients you're working with.

If you're doing an intensive thing, I mean, you're out with your an hour a day, you know, three patients automatically is, you know, 10 hours, not just your own time, which, which not opposed to work in the long days, but you know, for the patient now someone's coming at 7am and not leaving until four. Right.

So we limit to make sure that it's, it's also comfortable for patients, but in one particular week, I had an individual who was, uh, um, Uh, I'll just say ejected from a car after being hit by a train was found in a, in a tree pretty, pretty far away. And, uh, he was a younger, younger kid, an athlete and, and he was in a wheelchair, had no, couldn't, couldn't walk.

Maybe you would never know talking to him that there were any, abnormalities. So the fact that he was, he's in a wheelchair, had no, uh, vestibular postural tone. [00:58:00] So that was one. I had another patient who was, uh, uh, a fortune 500 CEO. perfectly healthy, perfectly functional, but at a fear that he was going to lose his job because of, you know, if the next kid coming up can do everything in 12 hours and can make faster decisions, the board's going to love him, especially if he's going to do it for a little bit cheaper rate.

And all of a sudden he's worried about, you know, working 18 hour days and burn it out and, you know, his health's tanking. Because he's inefficient in some of his decision making, and you know, we're looking at it from, you check the boxes, you know, no person really in the medical community would, I mean, you're, you could, I mean, you could Google this person, find him in seconds, you go, what, there can't be anything wrong with this person, he's, you know, one of the richest in the world, and there's no reason why there should be abnormalities, what's he here for, and then, on the other end, we had, uh, another person who was, a professional athlete, Um, but out of fear of retirement because they were concerned that in this last year, if they didn't have their performance goals the way they needed to be because [00:59:00] of some recent head injuries, um, that they weren't going to play again.

And unfortunately, we're going through some mental health issues because of that. Um, and also some of their head injuries, we know, unfortunately, can cause a lot of these, mental performance issues. And now they have not only the PTSD, but massive increases of anxiety. So you have three completely different patients that all went through the very same program of what are we here for?

What are your goals? And, um, you know, the, the, the fortune 500 CEO, he, he reached his performance goals and was able to drop his workload. And this is an individual who was drinking four pots of coffee a day. Down to one and, you know, working 18 hours a day back down to 12 to 14 hours, more efficient, you know, stock prices, you know, stockholder value all looks good.

The next individual, the, hockey player, you know, not only was able to get a great contract year. some of the suicidal ideations completely dropped. His relationship was improving because there was a fear of divorce in that one. And also we have now a person who, you know, went on to [01:00:00] have a very successful and probably, no, definitely an all star career, but probably even a Hall of Fame career.

And then this other individual who was, you know, hit by a train. Um, not only was he out of the wheelchair, but he walked out of the clinic on Friday. So, now you have, um, three completely different cases that are all being treated by functional neurology just by being able to look at the brain and analyze and realize if these areas are deficient.

Three completely different systems. Although actually you could argue that, you know, their motor systems or their emotional systems were all taxed, but their treatments look nothing alike. But the approach in the beginning was very similar. It was just start with a clean slate and apply it as need be.

And that was. to be fair, it's kind of a typical week of just, it's, it's those types of success stories I've been fortunate to have, um, because the foundation, um, you know, my colleagues laid out and, and did a lot of groundwork and improvements in diagnostics and everything. And, you know, very fortunate to be not only at the cutting edge, but really on the receiving end of it, that, you know, I wasn't, uh, I was only [01:01:00] involved in the creation of a couple pieces of technology in my career.

But I've been able to, uh, to really stand on the, on the shoulders with a lot of them that have laid a great foundation and education and just fortunately taught me how to apply it in a way that allowed for a lot of this. So kind of also shows that once again, it's clean slate, everything's catered to you, whatever you need, it's, you're, you're, you're not alone, number one.

but you're, you're very unique, but you're not unique to the sense that you can't be helped. You're probably seen it before. And these areas of the brain exist, and if you know how to look at it and understand it. Okay, pretty comfortable environment to where you can use the technologies or everything.

It's so basic pretty quickly.

Joey: Wow. Incredible. Super inspiring stories. Amazing results. And I want to ask you a million and one questions, but a couple of final questions before we close down here for the initial assessment. Like if someone was thinking about doing this therapy tomorrow, I'm just curious on the cost side, you don't have to give maybe your specific cost, but generally if they were to go to a [01:02:00] functional neurologist anywhere in the United States, for example, what would the ballpark cost be for something like that?

And does insurance typically cover it?

Dr. Paul: That's where it gets complicated, but not in the United, in other countries. You know, sometimes we're dealing with some of the socialized medicine, you know, there it could be covered, but the wait times could be long. So it was interesting enough, we, I saw, still to this day, I've probably seen more patients or very similar from other countries than the United States, just because they were generally looking for that holistic approach, but weren't able to access it because of their own government limitations.

In the United States, We can get access to it, but payment gets a little bit limited. Insurance will cover some of these things. A lot of times though, it's, you know, it's very dependent upon the why and everything. So a lot of the diagnostics are not covered by general insurances. They will, but they pay a small portion of them.

And then a lot of the other clinics, especially when you're doing intensives, you know, the way insurance billing works, you can only bill for one type of those services per day. And then you're usually limited by how many [01:03:00] times per week. So with all that being said. A lot of the functional neurologists, uh, and even, that's why a lot of the functional medicine docs in those areas are cash driven and it, and I promise you it's not solely for lucrative value, um, to be, to be candid and transparent, it's just because of the fact that you can give a lot, more to a patient, by charging those, By charging certain rates than you could buy insurance and actually we've done a cost analysis of it where we've looked at You know, what's the average person with concussion?

Because that's a higher population of patients. What does the average concussion cost? um a person and uh You know, we were able to see about 250 260k between your years of lost wages job performance, things of that nature. Um, so when we're looking at paying fractions of that for three to five days with the success rates we know we'll be able to have and somewhat of it, it's, it's almost no brainer, at least when you look at that way, [01:04:00] but it is, it is still a cost.

Um, you know, fluctuate and they're, they're dependent upon, you know, each individual one, but I, I would, I would say probably your, your average intensive treatment, I would say would probably range from. Three to 10, 000 for a week. If I was to be, if I was to put a number on it and just be fair, but I, but everything is, is dependent upon, um, where you go, what the locations are and availability and everything.

But I mean, when you compare it to what the average cost of or some of the other areas and your insurance premium is going up, it's actually is a much cheaper, just that, um, majority of them are, are generally cash based for that.

Joey: Yeah, no, it makes so much sense. And no, the investment side of it as well. I think a lot of people only sometimes will only think of.

Um, what they're giving up, but man, you get so much out of it. Yeah. Like you said, when you do the analysis of like me being able to make more money and being able to just live like a better life, that investment, especially. Looking at the way we use our money now, it's like, well I spend this on that car, [01:05:00] that thing.

And it's like, is that really making your life better? Adding a lot of value to life? And for honest it's not. And so things like this I think are compared to that are are wise investment. So that makes sense. And are you able to do like an initial assessment with someone without committing to the intensive or is it kind of a all or nothing?

Model. Oh,

Dr. Paul: no, absolutely. The way and we were just like this. We talked about before creating a catered program to them based upon their condition. What we see on exam. We still base it upon their schedule as well. Now, generally, I travel and have a few different jobs between the U. S. and Canada. So, so around.

So I have worked, but I also work in an intensive environment just because of the fact that, it's general, it's created a better success rate for patients for that population. however, If we're going through an analysis and, you know, again, everything's very transparent. If we do an exam, whereas I don't think we're going to be able to help you, this would be more appropriate.

Or I know we originally talked about setting aside five days, but maybe two or three would [01:06:00] be more beneficial. Then we're very transparent with that. That's, that's what it is. Or if we're at day three and we think, look, truthfully, we can knock this out of the ballpark two more days. And we have those conversations.

So you're not, um, automatically contracted into just once in just because you picked up the phone and talk to me or anybody or the functional neurologist. They have to see that you're automatically locked into those treatment plans. Everything is very individualized, um, and catered. So it's, it's working by the schedule.

And in the cases where. You know, you do have a schedule where you can't do an intensive model. There's always ways to work around it. Things just might take a couple more weeks or months, but it can always be worked and catered to you.

Joey: No, it's really helpful. Thanks for going through all that. And for anyone who isn't aware of this, I have friends who work in the medical world and work at clinics and things and um, dealing with insurance is like a job in itself.

And so this movement towards like cash payments is really wise in a lot of senses and actually can lead to a higher quality of care. Um, because you're not [01:07:00] dealing with these insurance companies and fitting into this box of like, well, that's not a diagnostic that's like in this, you know, 50 year old manual or whatever it is.

So anyway, it's, uh, it's exciting to see kind of where Um, this field is heading and I'm really interested to learn more and maybe I'll need to do some treatments myself, which is awesome. So I did want to ask you, um, if there are any like maybe common myths or misperceptions, misconceptions of this field, of functional neurology.

Dr. Paul: I think some of them in the beginning, I would say the began something to say it's an instant cure all I'm going to be done in two days because he said he got that person on the wheelchair. That's that's not every single case, although to be fair, it's a good majority, but that's not every case and you should never go home thinking I know this is going to be a guaranteed home run 100%.

Nothing is ever that when if anyone gives you a guarantee, you know, you should you should run pretty quick. But one of the other things that you should look at, I think, which is a misconception of functional neurology is that. You know, I think a lot of them will look at, especially from [01:08:00] the, the medical community and some of the original papers that came out, uh, you know, trying to, uh, bash it as a placebo or things of this nature, you know, uh, one of my, founding, uh, member, Dr.

Carrick said on, uh, Connie Chung, you know, if, uh, if this is placebo, then we're doing a pretty good job at it, but if, uh, if you're looking at it from that sense, Um, you know, one of the things that sometimes are the misconceptions are that, you know, I've been to PT or I've been to OT before and it hasn't worked.

So what's different about your vestibular technique versus this and that? And it's, again, it's not a comparison of one versus the other, but in the sense it's the application of it. When you're catering a program to you specifically, and not just your condition, you're catering or your limitations of insurance, then you have as many, options as you want, whatever you can create.

And we're not short on technology. We're not short on, [01:09:00] um, space and ability to, to do those things. So we can create an environment for you. I mean, we've taken Athletes onto their field of sport and designed therapies around there where, okay, we're maybe we're trying to do these types of eye movements from this direction, left to right.

Okay, well, you don't sit in a desk all day. So we need to create an environment for you. Okay, we're going on the ice. We're going to the football field. We're going to hit baseballs and so on. You know, you can create it for you. So because of that, again, when you're not bound by the limitations of different insurances, environment, or technology, then, then everything for you is different.

So just because you've been to one technique before, you tried talk therapy and it didn't work, you are not alone. You are not bound. You're not stuck. It's not over. I promise you there's plenty more stones to uncover and a whole lot more resources available.

Joey: That's tough. If someone wanted to work with you, how would they get in touch with you or maybe another functional neurologist in their area if you don't serve that [01:10:00] area?

Dr. Paul: Yeah, of course. So, um, for myself, I'm always open. You deal with me. I'm kind of the one man show for that one work for a few different companies in neurology and neurotechnology. And as I mentioned before, even a psilocybin mushroom company up in Canada. But if you want to get ahold of me directly. Um, always open.

You can just email me Dr, uh, Dr. Link, L I N K 1 8 at gmail. com. You know, that's me. Anytime you have a consult or you have any questions about navigating the system or finding a, you know, provider near you, always open for that. Uh, there's two other great resources. I'm sure they won't mind if I share this.

Uh, A-A-C-N-B, American College of A CNB, the American chiropractic neurology board.org and A CFN. Um, those are, there's two different ways to, um, sort of become a functional neurologist. There's the diplomat and the Fellowship Avenue, um, and both of those options will give you a list of doctor locators near you in not only the United States, but.

Um, other countries as well. So you'll be able to [01:11:00] find a functional neurologist near you. there's also the last one, you know, no, um, you know, no financial connection is also that the Kerrigan Institute website is a tremendous source, um, and resource for you to be able to look up and not only learn a little bit more about functional neurology, but not just, and patients.

But also if you're a provider, want to get a little bit more information on courses or what I can do and how can you learn a little bit more about I've movements, you know, they're incredible, but honestly, I mean, 24 seven, if you ever want to reach out to me, emails, uh, some of the easier ways, and I always open to have a conversation about, you know, would you, Um, be an appropriate patient of mine.

can I help you find a neurologist near you? It'd be more than, uh, helpful to be an advocate for that because, I think one of the things is, you know, service back to humankind is, again, as Dr. Kerrig always said, so I think we should always live by that. So if anything is, never stuck or you have a question, need a resource, Always happy to be there.

Joey: Really appreciate it. Uh, Dr. Paul, you're the man. It's been great learning from you and I'm excited to see where your practices, your careers, all the companies you're [01:12:00] involved with goes. And, um, I know there's really amazing things ahead. So I'm glad that you're able to come on and speak to the, our audience and we're better for it.

So thank you so much. I wanted to. Give you the final word. I'm just curious what, uh, final advice or encouragement you give to everyone listening, especially, you know, young people who come from broken families and are maybe feeling broken and stuck in life, what's, what's your final advice?

Dr. Paul: Final advice and I could speak, uh, you know, truthfully on this one is you're not alone, you know, quite a lot of times that you feel as though you're stuck and you know, you're in the, you know, woe is me, it's, it can't, it's always going to be this way.

It's never going to change. Um, you realize a lot of times that the people around you that you thought either didn't care so much or maybe didn't quite know. A lot of times they're great resources, but maybe you can't always find that professional. Maybe you reached out to, um, you know, a therapist, originally a physician didn't work well.

That doesn't mean that it's always that way. And it doesn't always necessarily mean that I'm the right fit for you. I mean, if you don't like to hear things in a, [01:13:00] you know, Canadian accent, I'm probably not the person for you. But if you reach out and you realize that there's a lot of people that are resources, a lot of times they're closer to you than you realize, and they also went through similar things that they don't even share.

And they found resources that they clip close to the vest that once you really get to talking, you realize you have a lot more in common than you realize. And you're going to be able to see those resources come to fruition pretty quickly. So I promise you're not only are you not alone, um, but there's also a lot more hope available rather quickly.

then you realize, you know, from. Uh, not only functional neurology, trauma therapy, functional medicine, and any of the classic avenues, um, honestly, this podcast, you know, looking back, you have, you know, a tremendous resource here that if you look at the divorce rates, the rates of, you know, failed jobs, and, you know, the marriages, the changes in economy, you know, there's, there's a lot of struggles out there.

There's a lot of resources available to you right now. Take full [01:14:00] advantage of them and, um, you know, never be afraid to reach out. that's how I would end it after a truthful thank you for for allowing me to come on. Um, and also more so thank you for all you do in creating this and, you know, starting what was what you thought was going to be sort of one environment and realizing you the outreach that you have as a great example, you're reaching a tremendous vast audience that you thought was going to be this one subset population.

Now you're out doing that. So, you know, thank you for all you do and bringing this together as this resource.

Joey: If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more.

And all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma you've experienced in your family and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. Life. And so if you want to view all the resources [01:15:00] that we offer for yourself, or maybe someone that, you know, you can just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Feel free to even just take 30 seconds now to message them. I promise you, they will be so grateful that you did. In closing, always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#126: Former Porn Actress: Over 90% of People in Porn are from Broken Families | Bree Solstad

Pending! Stay tuned.

Bree Solstad went from being a top-selling porn actress to quitting her job and completely turning her life around. That transformation started because of a trip to Italy. 

In this episode, she tells us about that and answers questions like:

• What led you to pornography in the first place?

• How did your broken family and abandonment from your father play into that?

• What percentage of performers in porn come from divorced or broken families? It’ll shock you

• What has helped you begin to heal your wounds? 

• What would you say to people who believe that porn is harmful and not wrong?

Visit Bree’s Etsy shop, Ave Maria Every Day

Follow Bree on X (former Twitter) and Instagram 

Listen to the Healing Sexual Brokenness series

For Men: Buy the Book: Forged: 33 Days Toward Freedom by Jason Evert and Matt Fradd

For Women: Join a Magdala Ministries group

Watch Sound of Freedom

Visit FightTheNewDrug.org

Visit BlackstoneFilms.co

For help with suicidal thoughts or behaviors, call or text 988, or go here.

Links & Resources

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

  [00:00:00] We normally don't start episodes like this, but I wanted to issue a little bit of a trigger warning because this episode does contain mature content. And so if you're listening around other people, especially kids, uh, we definitely recommend putting in earphones. But with that, my guest today went from being a top selling porn actress to quitting her job and completely turning around her life.

Her amazing transformation started on a trip to Italy. And so in this episode, she tells us all about that and answers questions like, What led you to pornography in the first place? How did your broken family and the abandonment from your father play into that decision? What, what percentage would you say of people in the porn industry come from divorce and broken families?

You're going to be shocked by her answer. Uh, what has helped you to begin to heal yourself? Your wounds heal your brokenness. Do you ever feel tempted to go back into that life? And what advice would you give to a girl who's maybe considering getting into pornography or feel stuck in it? And then finally, what would you say to people who believe that porn is not harmful or wrong?

Such an [00:01:00] inspiring story. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken family. So you can break that cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 126. We're so happy that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard a lot of great feedback. One listener said this, I was brought to tears with your podcast. I agree. There are no resources out there for kids of divorced parents. My parents had no specific reason for their divorce, but now that I'm about 30, I'm looking back and seeing how huge of an impact this has had.

on my life. Love that this leans into Christian principles. Some good came out of my story, too. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's [00:02:00] episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. In a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of Millennials said video is their top content choice.

It's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that? Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know, you need to create video content, but there's so many barriers to doing it. Like you don't know how, you don't know who to hire.

You don't have the time to learn and so on. And can kind of leave you feeling, uh, Overwhelmed to the point where you just kind of give up on the idea and go back to what you know, what's comfortable, but that's where Blackstone Films can help you. They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel.

They can create things like trailers, promo videos and commercials, uh, social media, videos, documentaries, fundraising videos, uh, and even courses. We actually produced two courses with them, two video courses, and we just had an excellent experience. And so whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about helping you not just create video content, [00:03:00] but create a clear win for your business or ministry, such as fundraise for your ministry, sell a course, get leads for your business, get students to sign up for your school, promote your event, and so much more.

Blackstone has reached millions around the globe with their videos, and they can help you too. And so if you want to view their past projects and the services that they offer, just contact them. Uh, go to Blackstonefilms. co, not com. Again, that's Blackstonefilms. co or just click on the link in the show notes.

My guest today is Brie Solstad. After a past full of regrets, she converted to Christianity. She was a former Top selling porn actress and producer who had a radical conversion to Christ that began in the Catholic churches of Italy. After having a profound experience at the tomb of St. Clair of Assisi, Brie's sinful life began to come to an end.

Brie quit all pornography, gave up her income, changed her life, and officially joined the Catholic church at [00:04:00] Easter in 2024. Brie now handcrafts one of a kind, in person, porn. heirloom quality, rosaries, and other Christian jewelry on a humble little Etsy shop called Ave Maria every day. We'll put the link in the show notes for you guys.

Bri is known on Twitter and Instagram as Miss B converted and has been utilizing her rapidly growing social media presence to share her growing faith and convince others to turn away from the plague of pornography. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm really glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this.

this episode and for even Christians listening who, who might object to some of what Brie believes. Again, my challenge is just to listen with an open mind too. And I think, you know, kind of rejoice or revel in the fact that she completely turned her life around. With that, here's my chat [00:05:00] with Brie. Brie, so good to have you.

Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's, uh, just an honor to be here. I'm so excited to just dive into your story because your transformation is just incredible. I'm so inspired by it and I love, you know, hearing more about that from anyone who's had any sort of story like yours. And so I want to get to that.

But before we get there, I'd like to start with your former life. What led you to pornography and sex work? Well, honestly, I've been trying to pinpoint like, what is the linchpin in my life that, you know, put me on this path? And I'm still not really sure exactly what it was. I know a lot of it has to do with the fact that I was raised with a single mother as an only child.

I didn't really have the dynamic of both people in my life, and that really trickled into so much. I think just having these, you know, These thoughts, maybe even in the back of my mind, my [00:06:00] subconscious of like feelings of abandonment that, you know, my father didn't want me. That sort of thing. And then really it was just the priorities in my life.

I never made God my number one priority, but I also never made myself my number one priority. Like I never really considered much of my own self worth. And from there it just spiraled out of control, you know, and I look back and it's almost like I was telling myself, this is how every 20, you know, 20 year old lives, you know, going from meaningless job to meaningless job and then just partying all the time, um, being reckless, being promiscuous.

And really, I think that a great deal of what contributed to my abuse of alcohol, my abuse of my body, my degradation, my feelings of not being worthy, I think really stemmed from when I went away to college. I [00:07:00] suddenly felt this newfound freedom, if you will, and not freedom that you think like, oh, I'm away from home and I get to make my own decisions.

No. My whole life being with a single parent, only child, my whole life was that kind of freedom where I always made my own decisions. I was extremely independent. I had to be. My mother worked all the time. I was alone all the time. I was a latchkey kid. That's why I really like crafts and animals and plants.

Like those are things that you can do by yourself. And then when I went away to school, it was suddenly like, I don't have to be the other adult in the And I didn't even realize any of this until later. You know, it was just ingrained in me and I suddenly was free to make my own decisions, but free in a way where I had this safety net of, you know, I live in a dorm room.

There are other people who are partying, uh, like they're skipping class. It seems like this could be okay for me. And this is lots of fun, you know, just having no boundaries, no [00:08:00] limits. It seemed like, like I was just really, really happy when I truly wasn't. No, it's so good. Thanks for sharing all that. And it's so fascinating.

You know, our audiences, you know, comes from, you know, broken families and there's so many wounds there. But one of the things I learned from Dr. Bob Schutz is that at the root of every wound really is a deprivation of love. And so, And so it's only natural that we would seek some form of love, even if it's not real, to fill that void.

And, you know, I think that the partying, like the seeming acceptance by the group of friends, because I fell into that when I was younger too, it feels good. It's appealing. We feel like we belong. And especially for people like us who maybe didn't feel like we belonged even in our own families because they were so broken, it can be really attractive to kind of go Go into that lifestyle.

And so, yeah, this whole thing of coming from a broken family, it's so interesting how so many of us, you know, kind of look for love in all the wrong places. And then we even, and I know we're going to get more into this, but we even sexualize our pain. We [00:09:00] sexualize what we dealt with. One of the fascinating statistics on this comes from Dr.

Patrick Carnes. I've mentioned this on the show before. He's a expert on sexual addiction, and he found that 87 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction or compulsion come from a broken family. Almost 90%. Which is just like, it's mind blowing, but like you said, it does make sense. So it's not surprising.

Like, I think when I look at my, um, younger self and, you know, when I hear your story, it's like, it makes sense. Like, it makes sense given what you've been through. It's not okay, but it makes sense given what you've been through. And, I mean, like I said, I don't know what the exact linchpin is and, you know, my mother raised me in the best way that she could, but there was definitely something lacking.

So then when this new opportunity came about, I just jumped on it. Like the idea of, you know, working from home and making a bunch of money and, and it just happens to be pornography, but you know, whatever. That was kind of, um, where my morals were at that point in my life. Because you had kind of walked down that path [00:10:00] of you know partying and pleasure seeking And it really kind of led you to a point that it almost was like a Not too big of a jump at that point.

Is that right? Yeah, so it really just Accumulated it began in college and then continued accumulating this addiction or this lifestyle Which actually then ultimately led to an addiction to alcohol or you know The alcohol addiction is always in there somewhere, but it was like the catalyst that then drove me to admitting my alcoholism.

Um, I mean, there's so many things in my life that we could unpack. Like I didn't even, I'm just, you know, throwing this on you now that, Oh yeah, I'm also a recovering alcoholic. Um, but, um, but that doesn't really have much to do with my conversion story. So I haven't really mentioned that. But one thing I want to tell you specifically that I haven't told anybody else when I was in college, I was engaged and participated when I went to class, but partying and especially drinking and sleeping [00:11:00] around.

We're my number one priorities to the point where, even though I loved going to class, I loved learning, I loved studying environmental science was my major partying, just took over everything else so that like I couldn't get up. I was too hungover to go to class. So then, and then I started skipping class and then more and more and more, and it just became more and more acceptable.

And the thing that I'd like to tell you and your listeners is that one thing I'm truly ashamed of is I went to a Lutheran university and I got a scholarship there from my church. These people, this elderly couple, they spent their retirement fund sending me to college and I completely wasted that opportunity and that's one of the things that, you know, I've, I've really struggled with that decision that I made and the, the way that I just completely wasted not only like my time, my energy, [00:12:00] but their money also.

It's a decision that. I would urge others to take seriously. If you're given an opportunity like that, don't waste it. Yeah, no. Thanks for sharing that too, and No, your transformation is so beautiful. We'll get to that shortly, but it makes so much sense again Everything that you went through kind of where you landed and I remember talking to in another interview Jay Stringer Who's this awesome author and therapist?

He was talking about this whole experience of coming from you know, a broken family and enduring trauma like you did and yeah He says the first experience often is one of fragmentation where we just feel really broken. We feel like our life is not cohesive It's not integrated. It's just so broken Broken into pieces and such a mess, really, to put it in simple terms.

And that usually leads us to seek out some form of numbing ourselves because the pain is too much to bear. And so, you know, like you said, in your story, it was alcohol, it was partying, it was sex, all that stuff. And my story was principally, you know, pornography and other sexual sins. Um, it was just like, I needed something to numb the pain.

That was my way of coping. [00:13:00] Precisely. Getting out of this reality here and now. Like there was an easier, it was an escape. It was a way to get away from just the difficulties of facing, you know, my parents splitting apart, just all the drama and sadness that came with that. And, um, and then that leads to, so again, we started with fragmentation, that brokenness, then we led to numbing, which looks different for different people, and then finally you kind of end up in isolation where it's just this intense loneliness where like, man, I regret what I've done, but I'm still feeling the pain.

And I feel like no one's there for me. There's no one there to like, as Jay Singer says, like, catch my tears, to hold my face, to see me like go through this and just love me through it. And so then we get in the cycle, we then feel more broken and fragmented. We then need to know more and then we'd feel a bit more isolated.

And then we just go down into this endless pit. Does that seem to describe your story? Yeah. Definitely in terms of my addictions, in terms of my bad decisions, but also in terms of producing [00:14:00] pornography where like it's, it's not an addiction. Um, it's not something for which like women need a support group, but it can be very isolating.

It can be, You know, intoxicating and you can easily feel trapped. I remember, you know, when I considered giving up this life, this career, I was really scared. I was really nervous about the money, but then I started thinking, okay, well let's consider, you know, you don't have to go on these extravagant trips or buy these.

ridiculously overpriced shoes anymore. That's perfectly fine. I'm willing to give up all that because of, you know, the happiness that I found within myself and the relationship that I have with God now. But let's even, let's take all of that out of the equation and say that, okay, you can get like a, just an average job, you know, like at a garden center or something.

That'd be fun, fruitful, pun intended, but who's going to hire you? Like, what are you going to write on the application? Like, forget about seeming professional and showing up with a resume. Okay. [00:15:00] Like, even if you're just going to pencil in on some application, they've Xeroxed for you. What are you going to say?

There's nothing you can't, you can't even use some flowery euphemism, like, you know, artistic entertainer, or like, that's just going to lead to more questions and you're trapped because you feel like you've done this for so long that you don't know how to do anything else. And then, you know, tragically, a lot of people in this industry also feel like they've done this for so long and it kind of, and it weighs on them and it seeps into their subconscious to the point where then they don't feel like they're worthy of doing anything else.

Like, this is not only all that they can do, but this is all that they can do. They're trapped in so many different ways. And I think that addiction is similar, but both, you know, are about reexamining your priorities, reexamining your life, and asking yourself, like, is this really what I want? Is this really, you know, helpful to me?

And then also being honest with yourself, which is hard to do when you're in the throes of addiction, especially. How many [00:16:00] years did you end up doing pornography for? And I'm curious, like, were there regular intervals where you felt like, man, I don't know if I should be doing this. I need to get out of it.

I was in the industry for just under 10 years and honestly, no, it really wasn't until I started going to church regularly that I even considered leaving the industry. That is something that I think will come in time. I'm still like, Unpacking a lot of things that have gone on in my life and and it's kind of funny It's like almost a timeline of like things that I regret and they come up almost in the same Timeline that they occurred or that I did them and I think I'm not quite to the point where I'm ready to really examine the effects of what I did through pornography because at the time I know that Like, now, I, I regret what I did, but at the time, I didn't consider that it was wrong at all.[00:17:00]

I would use my money for myself, but also, like, I was able to, you know, buy my mom really extravagant Mother's Day gifts, or, you know, send my godmother a bouquet for Mother's Day. The re It's funny, I mention this now, because it was just recently Mother's Day, and I remember, and like, now, I'm like, I don't have enough money to send them these big, huge bouquets anymore.

But that's okay, you know? And my godmother doesn't know. But my mom understands that I'm not making as much money anymore. And it's not like they would expect these things. But it's just, it's also kind of ridiculously humorous to think that I was buying these Mother's Day bouquets for these women in my life with the money that I made from pornography.

And I never considered that it was ridiculous. I never considered that my life was just kind of ridiculous, like, full of sin, full of pride, full of vanity, and full of loneliness, full of hopelessness. [00:18:00] You feel trapped in so many different ways, and this is yet another way. Like, you feel trapped mentally, because your mind is telling you one thing, but also telling you a different thing.

And it's so easy to justify. I know this from my addictions with alcohol, as well as, like, all the detrimental things that I did throughout my career in pornography. It's so easy to justify that this is fine. Or even just, I won't think about it now. I'll think about it tomorrow. And just move on. But I urge, I urge people not to do that.

I urge people, really, to just take an examination of your consciousness. Take an examination of your feelings, also. That's something that I really didn't do enough. And be honest with yourself. Are you actually happy? And I read this in a self help book once, and the book itself wasn't really that good. I don't even remember the title of it, but there's one part that was really good, and it said something like, ask yourself, what would my life look like if I stopped drinking?

If I stopped producing pornography? If I stopped [00:19:00] watching pornography? And then really think about that. And again, it's easy to lie to yourself. But I think that most people would say that their lives look so much better without their addiction, without this overwhelming sin. And we're, we're all sinners continually all the time.

Um, some more than others, but that's not a reason to continue doing it. That's not a justification. You're not alone, but at the same time, like expect more from yourself. You know try to do better. I'm not really sure what the question was. Yeah. No. No, I love that advice. No, that's so good Yeah No I love that advice because I think you're right a lot of people and perhaps this is what you were going through when you're in The midst of this is we kind of get in this autopilot Mode in life or survival mode like we get these opportunities in life We kind of walk through those doors and then our life is the way it is and we kind of have this feeling that it's Always just gonna be this way And we don't think we can really grow or improve and our life can get better.

And so we just kind of continue on that path. Because change [00:20:00] is hard. Transforming is hard. You know, it's not easy to go from being, you know, out of shape to getting into really good shape. It's not easy to, you know, go from, you know, Maybe not having skills that are, can be paid a lot of money to getting those skills to being paid a lot of money.

Not to say that's like, needs to be a goal for everyone, but just giving it as an example. And so, um, it's hard and it's a lot easier, it's a lot more comfortable not to do that. And like, you know, you said before too, there's this question of like, worth. It's like, well, You know, I, even if I maybe could pull that off, which I don't really think I could, you know, I'm really, I'm not worth it.

I'm, I'm not someone who, you know, people would look at and say like, Oh yeah, they're definitely going to be able to do that and make it. And they're definitely, you know, have a lot of confidence and dignity or whatever we want to call it. So I think it makes so much sense. And the thing you said about justifying too, it's a fascinating in, uh, when you build a home.

Um, I guess this is in like, um, architecture and in carpentry when a wall is crooked, like, let's say one of the studs is like, you know, the wall is kind of leaning over the, the action of straightening it [00:21:00] as justifying it. And so in life, like we only feel the need to justify things that aren't like, uh, on the straight and narrow.

And so, like you were saying, I think that's a good, a little litmus test too, for things. It's like, Do you feel the need to justify the way you're living your life right now? Do you feel the need to, you know, say that it's okay when in reality it might not be? And so I think that there's so many lessons in what you said.

And the final thing I was going to say was, when it comes to the shift out of that industry, my goodness, how scary. Like seriously, I think that that can't be overstated. It's like, this is literally, especially since that was pretty much after college onward, that was what you knew that was your job, that was your skill set.

And so going on to do something out, you're truly just starting from zero in a lot of ways, you know, maybe there's some, Lessons and virtues that you already had baked into you that you can use but my goodness that is scary I've heard it similar with like, you know, like Protestant pastors who convert to Catholicism just as one example You know They literally have been running a church their livelihood comes from that their friendships like their family even [00:22:00] and then they you know convert to Catholicism, let's say.

And then it's like, well, now I don't have a job. I might not even have a family. I don't have a church. Like, it's like devastating. So there are those sorts of careers that I think it'd be really, really difficult to shift out of. So yeah. Any thoughts on that before we continue on? Well, it's especially frustrating for me because in the industry that I was, I wasn't just a performer.

I was a producer. Like my favorite thing was editing videos and doing crazy things with like green screen and special effects and that sort of thing. I took a class at a community college for these things and got really into it and I'm really good at it and it's lots of fun. But that's another frustrating element is like when I was Going through my conversion, I was watching a lot of videos online and I was thinking, well, maybe like for the, for example, like the Catholic hippie, she sometimes plugs rosaries, like, um, promotes them, people who sell them.

So I thought, [00:23:00] And we'll get into that, but I now sell rosaries and um, I thought, okay, maybe we could do an exchange like she could promote my rosary business and I could edit her videos for her. And then I was like, I can't send her any of my work. What am I going to do? Like, just, okay, pretend like I'm wearing like all my clothes and that I'm saying things that are completely different and tell me what you think.

Like, that's not going to work. Can't do that, yeah. I can't expose this woman to what I did. And so that, yeah, that's another frustrating thing is, I mean, I think you do pick up some skills that are like, that could be. beneficial in the real world. But again, you, you can't use them. You can't apply them to anything because of your past.

Yeah. Okay. No, I get that. You, it's hard. You can't show any sort of like track record cause you want to leave that life behind and yeah, totally makes sense. And thanks for sharing all of that. And I want to go back to your family situation. I'm just curious, um, Yeah, just over the years, the struggles and kind of brokenness, [00:24:00] wounds you've, you've dealt with when it comes to just the fact that your dad was absent from your life.

You mentioned abandonment and things like that. Um, yeah, just curious if you had anything to add on top of what we've already talked about when it comes to just how that experience contributed to this life and yeah, how hard that was too. I think that a lot of my story, it's hard for me to say that I completely regret everything because everything led me to where I am now.

And to have such a great appreciation for my mindset, for the love that I feel for myself, for others, It's from adversity that these things came about, but really what I think, what I think about a lot is another person's life, and how great it would be if they could skip all of that. And I think that for me coming, like being, coming from my situation, my home life, there weren't all that many opportunities.

to [00:25:00] better my situation. But I think that being around people who do have, you know, a secure home life, who do have confidence in themselves, who think highly of themselves, who, who have God in their life. I think that that's something that's really beneficial. And also, just not feeling so alone. I know that, I mean, you were, in some cases, abandoned.

Like, in a lot of cases, you know, I think that it's harder sometimes, maybe if you're used to having a father figure or both parents, and then suddenly there's this shift and there's this change, and like, what did I do, what did I, But for me, I never knew my father. So, and he wasn't somebody who my mother respected.

Uh, we actually referred to him as the sperm donor as I was growing up. And it was kind of like a little joke. But I now realize that even that little joke has had an effect on how I view men. How I viewed relationships. How I viewed [00:26:00] intimacy, like all these things have come about because I was raised in a single parent home and I'm not sure that they, that that, I mean, I know that that's not the only factor, but if you're in that sort of situation, like don't be afraid to ask for help.

With your child and, or, you know, or your own life and bringing more faith and more goodness into your life. I think that, that, that always helps. I couldn't agree more. For me, the kind of pivots in my life, the times where I was able to kind of turn a corner, break through, whatever you want to call it, came one when I got new friends.

You know, I've heard your friends are like an elevator. They either take you up or take you down. And the friends I was hanging around with, they were certainly taking me down. They were like my sports buddies and I loved them, you know, and I still look back on them. I don't like hate them by any means. I think that they came from really broken situations too.

And they were just like caught up in this culture that was like, you know, into pornography. They were into like, we were so young too. Like we're like 11. year old [00:27:00] kids, you know, and, and that was my, you know, that was the time I was exposed to pornography. And so 11, 12, 13 year old kids, and just kind of sucked up by this culture.

And for me, for some reason, I always knew that I wanted to be happy. And I knew that that wasn't making me happy. I knew that it was working to numb pain, that it was kind of an escape, like we discussed, but I knew it wasn't ultimately making me happy. And so I met these new friends, and these new friends were like, really happy people, like not fake happy, but like genuinely joyful people.

And I was like, whatever it is you have, like, I just want that. And I noticed like when I spent more time with them, I was happier. And when I spent more time with my sports buddies, I was more miserable. And so I just started spending more time with them. And I was honestly like, I was afraid for them to know kind of like the real me.

So I would just kind of fake it till I made it. And so, you know, I, I certainly just started to adopt their life. And, and that like really, really helped. And those friends were these. Christians, Catholic Christians, who were really, you know, on fire for their faith, and they were, you know, just, just like good people.

And, uh, so anyway, I started to be like them, [00:28:00] to build virtue, to pray, to just learn my faith, seek out God's plan for my life, all that stuff. And, and that really, really helped. But the other thing I was going to say, just to second what you said about, um, maybe speaking to parents or young people who are coming from broken families, um, the mentors in your life can fill the void of a father who abandoned you.

And it's never going to fill it in a perfect way. Like you're never going to be able to go find another man in your life. Who's going to perfectly be your dad. Like you only have one biological father. And when that's person's ripped from your life, for whatever reason, it's hard, you know, it leaves a wound.

Um, but my goodness, have I experienced so much healing through just the men in my life who've kind of taken me under their wing, who mentored me, who've guided me through the challenges that I face, who've really affirmed me, just showing me that, you know, especially when I thought maybe I was worthless or You know, that I thought whatever struggles I was dealing with at the time were kind of, they defined me.

They would come in and say, no, no, no, you're so much more than that. And they would just affirm me, you know, and who I am. So anyway, that, that was like really helpful for me too. So just, I just love the advice you said. And I think it's so important to surround [00:29:00] yourself with good people, both in terms of people beside you, your friends, but also people ahead of you who are mentors, who can kind of show you like, you know, what, How you need to live.

It's so, so valuable, especially if you didn't have that in your family. Yeah, I agree. Definitely. I want to, um, get to your transformation more, but I'm just curious. I wanted your opinion on this. If you had to guess, what percentage of people in sex work and pornography do you think come from divorced and broken families?

Meaning, you know, their parents were divorced or they had a really dysfunctional home life. I'd say probably, like, 95%. At least in the 90s. Yeah, I think that it takes a certain kind of person to set aside what society deems as acceptable and be somebody completely different and I think that a lot of you know It's something I say a lot when like in regards to really horrible people monsters aren't born They're created so and I think that that can be said for for, you know, a lot of [00:30:00] different things that plague us.

They're not something that, that we're born with. They're something that has accumulated because of, you know, something that happened or something that we did. And I think that, you know, most of the women who are in this industry, okay, well, I should speak to what I know. For me and for the friends that I had, We were, like, kind of caring people, and um, nice women, and, I mean, I don't, I don't think I was a bad person, but the work that I did, and without going into too much detail, the meaner I was, the more they liked it, and the more they would pay me.

So then, it's kind of like, um, I can't remember his name, the scientist who rang the bell. Um, and the dog slobbered and Pavlov Pavlov. Yes. Thank you. You know, it's kind of like something that you can't help But then actually start to become this person who they want you to be Because [00:31:00] the more selfish, the more egotistical, the more bratty, the more vain I was, the more, like, offensive I was, or, um, narcissistic, especially, like, throwing other people under the bus for my own gain, the more that I would, you know, Be acclaimed, not just by clients either, but also other women in the industry.

And so you're in that, you know, continuously spinning wheel. You're eventually going to start to feel these ways and you're going to start to think this. And, and I think that's something to be. Cognizant of but also just to know that these sort of things can happen to you that within you know the things that you surround yourself with those sports friends or you know people who are really into Fancy shoes and that's what will form who you are and and I think it's important to remember that really Couldn't agree more.

And thanks for going into that. I think it's important to [00:32:00] mention, I know some people kind of tiptoe around these subjects of like pornography, but I think it's important we talk about it because there's so many lessons in your story and what you were saying. And when it comes to like, just to push into that a little bit, um, when it comes to, The whole, how our sexuality becomes so distorted and perverted, like the deeper we get down that path.

It's so, it's fascinating, it's sad, it's really interesting to kind of think about and study. I know Jay Stringer, who I mentioned, um, in episode 102, if you guys want to check that out, he has so much insight into this. He studied 4, 000 people who struggle with sexual addictions or compulsions, and he just really went deep into it.

And one of the things that he found is like, my goodness, your sexual desires, your fantasies, even he, they even looked at pornography searches, um, in their study. They say so much about the ways in which you were harmed, the trauma you endured, like, it's insane. They're able to look at someone's pornography searches or the, you know, fantasies that they have, and they're able to connect that with specific traumas they'd had in their life.

For example, it's like, oh, your mom was really controlling, and this [00:33:00] correlates with this sort of genre of pornography that you go after. It's so fascinating. So that was, I think it's really important. So one of the things that I learned from him is that there's so much underneath the surface that a lot of people don't think about that maybe you intuitively know that when it comes to anger and power and pornography.

Like, there's so much there that he, you know, he explained it well in the episode, and I'm not going to do nearly as good of a job, but he was basically saying that there's so much anger that we feel as humans for so many reasons, right? And anger is just this response that we feel at a real or perceived injustice.

So there might be something in our life, especially as it relates to the sexes, which is really interesting. So it's like if men Uh, you know, if these important men in your life treated you this way, or these important women in your life, like your mom, or girlfriend, or wife, treated you this way, then you might tend to think of all women that way.

And then therefore, um, you know, like, for example, this is just an example, if you had, you know, a mother who was really controlling and belittling, you might seek pornography or, you know, fantasies [00:34:00] that put you in a position of power over women. Um, because there's a lot of, maybe, untapped anger there that, you know, It gives you, you know, pornography becomes kind of an outlet to reverse that, uh, misery that you're living through.

And so anyway, he does a better job explaining it than I could. And his book is awesome, Unwanted, by the way, um, recommend people look, check that out. We'll, we'll link to it in the show notes, but yeah, so, so everything you're saying makes so much sense to me that, um, you know, kind of the deeper you go into that world of like perversion and twisting what's supposed to be really beautiful, good gift to our sexuality, the, the kind of more ravenous, almost an animal like that we become.

Definitely. And I was taught that, I mean, my mother really impressed upon me that the act of sex was making love. And it was something that you did between a man and a woman that you love and you're committed. And then I think that it just, once, that was when I was really little. And then once I got older, I think it just kind of, it was one of those things that like, Oh yeah, like, You know, that's just a, maybe like an [00:35:00] old wives tale or like something that your mom tells you when you're growing up, but it's not really true.

Um, like look at, you know, just turn on the TV, there's two people having sex. Like, it could be anything. And, uh, it's not, I mean we see it everywhere. And I think that not only the, like the beauty and the sanctity of sex and the act of sex, has completely been erased from our society. But now the pornography and the pornification of sex is just becoming more and more acceptable within our society.

And, um, and it's tricky. Absolutely. No. And I, I, I love that distinction and that comparison of like, you know, it's not that, you know, the world doesn't glorify sex. It really degrades it. It really makes this like, into like subhuman animalistic thing where like you said, it's really meant to be making love.

And it becomes this really, again, degraded thing that I think we all know that we want better [00:36:00] than that, but maybe we think that it's not even possible to have something better than that. And so, no, so many good lessons in there. So thank you for going into all that. I do want to transition into your story and into your, um, transformation.

It's just incredibly beautiful. What was it that, yes, sparked that exit from pornography and ultimately your conversion? Well, it started with a tragedy, um, like all great stories. Something happened about three years ago that ultimately it was just a freak accident and it was a horrible occurrence, but it's something that has plagued me and filled me with guilt and sorrow and depression.

And it's my greatest grief. And I have been in therapy for the past three years because of it. And it's slowly, it was slowly getting a little bit better, but still my own sense of guilt. And again, also self worth and even just desire to live my life [00:37:00] was in question. And after this, I, I was fully committed to killing myself and it wasn't.

It wasn't even a thought. I was like, yep, that's what I'm doing tomorrow morning. I'm going to do this, this, this, and this. And, um, by the grace of God, my husband wouldn't leave me alone and he, he stayed with me for like two weeks pretty much. He took time off work. So, um, but none of these things helped.

This was my fault. It was my doing and, and now my life is over because of this. Then, last spring, I had an opportunity to go to Italy. My mother in law actually paid for tickets for all of us to go. And, I was really excited about that, of course, obviously. Uh, we took like six months to prepare. I got, you know, Italian in 40 minutes a day.

And, but most of the preparation that I did was really about, the things that I wanted to see, the artwork there. And when you're in Italy, um, the hub of the greatest artwork of all of Western [00:38:00] civilization, in my opinion, the greatest art is in the churches, churches, basilicas. We visited dozens, uh, I want to say probably like over 50, but that was like our main focus was going to these churches.

And initially it was just for the artwork, you know, nothing religious, you know, I'm not Catholic, but at the same time I was like, well, I kinda, I want to get into it though. You know, I want to be like when in Rome, you do as the Romans do. So we're visiting these churches, they're Catholic churches. And I know that Catholics wear a veil when they go into a church just as a form of respect.

So. I figure, all right, I gotta, I gotta try this. I'll wear a veil, you know, have fun. I'll be Catholic. Um, so we go and every time outside of a church, even just like a tiny little Basilica, I put on my veil, then I start to, I start to kneel and cross myself when I go in again, just like, look at how funny am I, you know, I'm Catholic.

Um, and just kind of getting a kick out of it. [00:39:00] And then. And, like, the artwork is incredible, it's amazing, it really is. But then, something inside of me started to change a little bit, where instead of just appreciating the artwork for what it was, or instead of veiling and crossing myself just because that's what we did, I started getting into it.

Like, wow, this art is beautiful, but, like, look at the way that, um, Jesus has his arm around Mary, like, in, in this fresco. Or look at the way that this person's, you know. Intimating this sort of reaction and I started really like being moved and touched and Appreciating the artwork for the theology as well as just its beauty and then I started like it was almost like a fake it Till you make it kind of thing where I was crossing myself initially just because that's what they do But and then I started like actually saying the words looking up at the crucifix when I did so acknowledging the crucifix And, but still, at this point, remember, I have this intense tragedy that's weighing on my shoulders, and I, when this [00:40:00] occurred, I had tried praying to God, and I tried, you know, like I had touched on before, I was raised Lutheran, but completely fell away from the church ever since college.

God's been pretty much non existent in my life. But you better believe that as soon as this tragedy occurs, like, He's my number one, you know, concern, and I'm like, Hey. You know, I'm praying now, so you gotta listen to me. Like, I haven't prayed or talked to you or done anything beneficial in the last 20 years, but now I need something, and I need something that I've never needed before in my entire life, and I expect you to do this now.

And I prayed so hard that night that I can still remember, like, my knuckles were white because I was squeezing my fingers so hard, and he didn't do anything, or so I thought. Jesus didn't respond to me at all that evening, and so, I was done with him completely. Like what little amount of relationship that we had was completely over.

So this affected me when I was in Italy, even just going into churches. Initially, like I said, it was, it was for the artwork. So it wasn't that big a deal. But [00:41:00] then when I started crossing myself, when I started really looking at the theology of the pictures, I was like, okay, I I'm in God's house and I, I still don't want to talk to God.

I don't, I don't have anything to say to him. And like, even just thinking about talking to God made me like start to tear up. But in these churches and basilicas in Italy, in addition to the crucifix, you could always find Mary somewhere. And I started going to her, like, physically, literally, I would, you know, kind of walk around.

Because she wasn't always right there, present. Like, sometimes she was in, like, a smaller alcove. Or, in Italy, you probably remember the edicolas. They're the frescoes that are on the street corners and, like, on just, like, random sides of buildings and stuff like that. And it's, it's always Mary illuminated.

And she was just everywhere. And And I started noticing her and I started thinking that, okay, this is kind of weird. Like, why are you, you stalking me basically. Um, [00:42:00] and And then I thought, I thought about her and her life and what she went through, and I thought about how she had this intense tragedy, even greater than my own, where she went through something similar where it was completely out of her hands and her son was put upon a cross, tortured, died a really awful death.

And she went through all of this with grace and with dignity. And, and that was. That's what helped me to be able to be in a house of God, to be able to even consider talking to God, because I was able to talk to Mary. Mary is, she was born without sin, and she is the mother of God, but she's still human.

And she was the one who asked Jesus, kind of, at the wedding of Cana, she was the one who said, Hey, these people don't have any more wine, and I need you to help them. They're really good friends. I really don't want them to be embarrassed. And he said, It's not my time yet. But he did it anyway because [00:43:00] she asked.

And that was, I kind of think of that as like, that's kind of what started the ball rolling that ultimately got him on the cross. He said it wasn't his time, but she said, please. And so in a way, I like to think of that. Mary didn't really know what she was asking. She didn't know that, okay, if you do this, then you're going to be crucified sooner than later.

Um, I'm not saying that, but in a way I think that she. She knew what was going to happen. She knew that she was going to have these swords pierce her heart, and yet she continued forward, and she lived her life with grace and beauty. And she was a huge part of my conversion process, and then, and just my healing, really.

And being able to talk to God again, but it doesn't end there. Um, so from there we went to Assisi, um, because St. Francis is amazing, awesome. And like I've told you [00:44:00] before, I. Animals have always been a big part of my life, and even non Catholics know about St. Francis. I think he's like the gateway drug to Catholicism, or like the gateway saint almost.

Where it's like, even secular people are like, yeah, St. Francis! It's cool, he's in a dog. Um, and that's how I was, I'll admit it. Went to Assisi primarily just for St. Francis, but then knew about St. Clair, his female counterpart, just from, again, I did a bunch of research before going there and so I learned about their story.

Um, but she's like a footnote, you know, in his story. As it turns out, she was really the shining hero of my story. And I remember we, okay, we went to a CC. We went and, and looked at all these amazing things and all these different historical places where history was made. And we visited St. Claire's tomb and not really thinking much about it.

I still remember standing in [00:45:00] line and, um, like telling other people to they were talking loudly and you're not supposed to talk loudly and you're supposed to be respectful. It wasn't like I was expecting anything at all. I was just coming, you know. I had an opportunity to kneel in front of her tomb and so I'm gonna do it.

I kneel in front of her tomb, I close my eyes and I, I had a vision of her. I'm not saying that I'm some sort of mystic or that like she appeared in front of me or anything. Yes, my eyes were closed, but I could see her distinctly right in front of me. She was wearing this cream colored, like, satin gown, which is weird, too.

Um, I've really, like, gone over every detail in my mind because I want to make sure that this is, this is legit. I don't, I don't want to be telling a story where like, actually it's just some sort of, you know, um, something that I've manifested in my head. So I think to myself, you know, why would she be wearing this gown if it was something I just manifested in my head?

Wouldn't she be wearing her like classic hair [00:46:00] shirt? Because, you know, That's what I learned about up until that point that she was like always in this hair shirt. I've learned differently since then like she actually used to wear it in secret because because her her health was really ailing and her Her sisters would they're like no you can't wear that anymore and she'd she'd keep it under her pillow to keep it secret My wild lady.

Um So i'm kneeling at her tomb I have my eyes closed she's appears before me in this satin gown And I can really only kind of see the bottom half of her body and the top half is kind of in this bright light. But she shows me her arms. Um, she says, see how soft my arms are. She shows me her lap. She says to me that that she'll take it.

She said, you can put her here, you can put her here and I'll take care of her. And you don't have to do all this on your own anymore. And you don't have to be the one. To carry all this by yourself, because I'll help you. [00:47:00] And, and, ultimately, I think, also, what she was trying to tell me was that, you know, I can take your suffering, and I'll bring it and give it up to God for you.

Because, at this point, I'm still not ready to talk to God. I don't want to have anything to do with Him. And she was, I didn't even really know what, um, an intercessor does or, um, anything like that as, as far as like Catholic people. Um, but I think now I can say that I think that's what she was offering to me, to be my intercessor, to be my go between when I wasn't ready to talk to God yet.

And she was also just offering me the opportunity to not be alone and not have to carry this. This pain with me all by myself anymore, and I got up from her tomb and I'd like to say that everything changed and now we're all happily ever after. I became Catholic and yadda yadda. Not yadda yadda, but you know what I'm saying, but that's not the case.

I got up from her tomb [00:48:00] still crying. I went into one of the kneelers and prayed for a while. I was able to stop crying, but I didn't really think much of it until several months later until I really decided to jump in with two feet and become Catholic and Then I really started thinking about what was she saying to me because I remember leaving there and like Being able to breathe easier having like this weight lifted off of my chest but not really understanding it and not really thinking it was some sort of supernatural occurrence and now I I think that she came to me.

I think that she chose me to help me. I hope she forgives me for, you know, going to a CC only to see St. Francis, but I think she's good at that. Um, and since then, uh, I chose her to be my confirmation saint. And I just, I really love speaking on, on like her acts and her, her life. I, it's just [00:49:00] phenomenal and really impressive.

And so, yeah, that was a pretty. special experience. So that was really well. What started it and then from there I came home, you know, after an experience like that after not just with Claire but with Mary and even with the crucifix, with Jesus, with everything, I couldn't go back to the way that I was living.

I wasn't sure about going to mass because I was a Christian. you know, Lutheran, but, um, but I, I wanted those feelings that I'd gotten in Italy and I, I'd never felt that in a Lutheran church. And, um, so I started to go to mass, um, you know, semi regularly if for no other reason, just to rekindle those feelings that I had in Italy.

And then I considered actually becoming Catholic, but I wanted to talk to an authority first before I completely made, made up my mind. So I made an appointment with a priest and I went and spoke with him at length and that's [00:50:00] when everything changed. Um, when he told me that God loved me and God wanted me to be happy, it was like a drink of water after a 20 year drought.

And I didn't even realize I was thirsty, but I was so extremely thirsty. And that's kind of like how I was living, you know, ever since my 20s, was I didn't realize how unhappy I was. I just was going day to day, I think like most people maybe, and I didn't realize that there could be something better. And it was that conversation with a priest that illuminated that in my life and in my mind.

And I started crying and I just really haven't stopped since. Uh, it was an amazingly fruitful discussion. And then also, even before I got to speak with the priest, I was speaking with his secretary and those same exact feelings that you talk about, Joy, were, I want what she has. Within, like, I was [00:51:00] there, I got there kind of early and I think it was maybe like five I had told her my whole life story about, even about my recent miscarriages and, like, everything that had happened to me.

And somehow, I don't know, I just completely opened up to this woman. And then she told me about how her son had committed suicide. And I'm thinking to myself, like, man, I thought that I was selfish before, egotistical before. Like, nothing that has happened in my life could be that bad. That your son committed suicide, but look at this woman.

Look at the faith and the beauty and just the friendliness. She was so friendly and so happy and so beautiful and I wanted that. I, I, not even like before I got to the priest I was like, Man, I like this woman, like, I'd like to be friends with her after I talk to the priest. Man, I like this woman. I'd like to be in class with her.

It turned out actually she was the instructor for RCIA. [00:52:00] Um, so it just worked out, like, perfectly. And at that point I jumped in with both feet, wholeheartedly, no looking back. And I'm so much happier for it. What a story. My goodness. So many layers to it. I love how your, yeah, just going to Italy was kind of the spark of this transformation, because I absolutely love Italy.

I come from an Italian family. I've had the opportunity to travel over there and spend time, and I worked over there actually for a little while. And, um, my goodness. I just love it. So, you're getting me excited. I want to go back, but, uh. Oh, it's so amazing there. I mean, you can't, you can't help but be Catholic when you're there also, or at least appreciate the Catholicism and just the spirituality, the faith.

And then, you know, not to mention the food and the climate and, oh my gosh. My goodness. It's just, it's just unreal. So, so good. There's so much I want to talk to you about, but this tragedy that you went through, I'm so sorry for that. I think it's such a normal, like a natural occurrence for those of us who maybe are far from God [00:53:00] to then go to God in those moments of pain.

It makes so much sense. Um, you had that experience of disappointment of being like, God, you didn't come through for me when I needed you. And I'm really curious to kind of press into that. Cause it seems like that he was kind of working in the background behind the scenes. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you tell me.

And then he did come through for you in a way that maybe you didn't expect. But I think it is really important because a lot of people find themselves exactly where you were, that the pain and suffering in their life is this major wedge between them and our relationship with God. I think it's the number one reason that people.

Give up on God in faith in my opinion It's just like the pain and suffering they see in their lives or the lives of people that they love and care about Um, and so yeah So we can treat God as I've heard father Mike Schmidt say is this like divine vending machine or like give me this give me that I want you to just like fix this area of my life.

I don't want a relationship with you Just want you to be like this technician that comes in and just magically fixes this thing. How did, how has your kind of view of God transformed through this experience where maybe you saw [00:54:00] somewhat of that, again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but then now you see that there's, there needs to be a relationship and there needs to be like, he's caring for you, but he might not give you always what you want, but he will give you what you need in time.

It is. It's extremely difficult to go through life without God. And it's extremely difficult to go through tragedy without God. And my answer was to turn my back on God, initially, and that didn't work. But then, I think, one thing I want to say is that it's remarkable, like, my recovery time, if you will, of tragedy, since having God in my life, and prior to having God in my life.

And, like, the recovery time, like, you're still gonna have tragedies, you're still gonna have things that go wrong in your life. But the recovery time for me has been, it's like, you know, night and day, really. And, God, it's hard to hear, and it's hard to believe, but God does answer prayers. [00:55:00] And, for me, what I've realized, and I'm still not there, You know, a hundred percent like, Yay, I'm so glad that this happened to me, and you took this tragedy and you made it into something good.

Good for you. Um, you know, let's not lie or be fake. I still wish this hadn't happened. I'm still kind of mad that he chose You know this sort of thing in order to get me into the Catholic Church But I think that's ultimately what he did and I'm not saying that he chose to put this tragedy in my life for this but I was praying that I could see her again and I think because As he has opened up my mind to the faith and to the church and to this sort of, this way of life and opened up my mind to the detriments of my previous way of life, that means that in some way I'm going to be able to see her again sooner rather than later.

Because I do really believe in purgatory. Not the Lutheran form of purgatory, but a purgatory [00:56:00] where, you know, you have to prepare yourself. God. Um, so think of it like the scene in the wizard of Oz. They go through like a whole afternoon of like, you know, she gets her hair curled, like the tin man gets all shined up and this is just to meet the wizard.

But think of like how much prep you have to go through to meet God. And it's like, Well, you have to shed these certain things that you're still clinging to. And one of the things that I'm still clinging to is my guilt and my sadness over what happened. And I think that he brought Catholicism into my life to help me with this guilt, to help me with this sadness.

And therefore, I'm not going to have to spend as much time in purgatory and I can get to heaven to see my loved one sooner. I also think that maybe he didn't necessarily put this tragedy in my life, but he used this tragedy in order to get me to go back to church ultimately. Um, and then also to join the Catholic church because [00:57:00] I was raised Lutheran.

And when we did go to church, which was, you know, like Easter, Christmas, where some of those people, but also. Like, just every now and then, I would be like, You know, I remember just really liking church when I was young. Why don't we try it? And my husband was like, Okay, I guess. And we'd always go to a Lutheran church, because that's how I was raised.

And then, during my tragedy, my husband kind of reconverted. back into the Catholic faith, got really into the Catholic faith, and then, and at the time I felt, well, I've lost him. Like, he's just doing his own thing, and I'm gonna be stuck here in my tragedy. Um, and he started going to Catholic Mass, so then, after I came out of this funk and was able, after Italy, after I was able to consider that, you know, maybe my life is worth something.

Maybe I can go on. Maybe I can have joy and happiness because remember I told you the day after this occurred I was like, I'm taking the shotgun. I'm going to the [00:58:00] backyard. I Already had my note planned for my husband for my mother all this and so to go from there To entering into the Catholic Church took some time and I didn't want to have anything to do with God Meanwhile, my husband's really into God and I'm kind of offended by that You But then he starts going to mass and then so after Italy even if like I I really wanted to continue going to Mass because of those same feelings that I got in Italy But even if I wanted to go to a Lutheran Church, like it was too late.

My husband was already Catholic So it's not like we're gonna go to two different churches And so, I think, in a way, I mean, I'm never going to understand, no matter how much I ask, um, no matter how much I think about it, I'm never going to understand why God does what He does, and especially in that circumstance.

And I tell myself, you know, you're never going to know the reason why until you get to Heaven, and until, and at that point, you're not going to care anymore. So just stop thinking about it. [00:59:00] And I'm never going to know. But his, you know, path for me in that moment, in that situation. But what I can do is consider that he knows more than me, um, and also just have faith that he knows what's best for me.

And there could be a number of reasons why, you know, what happened did happen. But ultimately, I don't like to think about the negatives necessarily as much as like, look where I am now. And You know, since that tragedy has occurred, like, I've had two miscarriages, my grandmother's died, um, we had to say goodbye to our 15 year old cat recently, you know, there, there are things in my life that are still hard, and they're so much easier.

Wow, thanks for sharing. No, thanks for sharing all that, and again, I'm sorry for your losses. No, I think it's important to, especially for anyone listening who doesn't believe in God, [01:00:00] and maybe this is the reason why, because of pain and tragedy in their life, it's important to know, like, we can intellectually explain how free will and sin and evil work, but to me that never felt very satisfying.

Yeah. It's like, okay, fine, you intellectually have this valid argument that kind of accounts for all these objections, whatever, that's fine. It's important to do, but you know, it's not always so convincing. So for me, I think it is really, really powerful when you see someone like yourself who does suffer.

And does find some like deeper greater meaning in it and sees that God can somehow bring good out of it. That's one point. There's just something different about people who suffer, who like you said have like grace in their life, who have God's life inside of them. And even like just incredibly heroic stories of people who've sacrificed themselves for the good of others to love other people.

Um, I think of the Navy SEAL, Mike Montsour. He um, you know, he was a devout Catholic. He threw himself on a grenade in Iraq to save his Navy SEAL brothers. And, you know, you can say it's like, Oh, that's his [01:01:00] training as a SEAL, as a special operator. That was part of it. But he just, he did have this like selflessness about him.

And so I think, like you said, it's suffering. Doesn't disappear from your life once you choose to follow God and have a relationship with him But you like you said you become better and stronger and more virtuous and better able to navigate and even like you said see that This isn't the end if it was the end life would be very depressing and I would personally see no reason to live like to You know, I think that is It kind of makes sense if, if this was it.

And so, yeah, but, but I think overall, the thing that is the most mind boggling for me when I have wrestled with this whole problem of pain and evil in my life is, you know, I can never say that we have a God who doesn't know what it's like to suffer, like, like you said, in those churches in Italy, it's like the crucifix is always there.

Like, it's just mind boggling that a God who, you know, is all powerful, all good, all knowing could. Come to earth, take on human flesh, become human, and go through all of that. Worse than, you know, any of us could imagine. There's something in that that just, like, it stops you in your [01:02:00] tracks, and I think that's the greatest argument, you know, or the greatest, um, maybe evidence that there's something about, like, human suffering and human pain that, like, God wants to work through.

And, uh, it's not, it's not so clear. I can't explain it. But, um, But it is, uh, it's evident that, yeah, this isn't the end and that he, you know, God is moved by human suffering. It seems, um, it's kind of similar to, I can't remember the name of it, but there's this, the Japanese pottery where you take, um, gold and you fuse the two pieces together.

So then they become stronger than before they were broken and they become almost more beautiful too, because now instead of just pottery, there's, it's lined with gold and. I think that's a really good analogy for life. And yeah, for any of those who need inspiration, even if, you know, you aren't religious, I suggest reading about the saints.

I may be a little biased, but I think St. Clair's. It's just really inspirational. And there's so many of them who have [01:03:00] gone through turmoil or tragedy or even just, you know, were ridiculed for their beliefs, for being outspoken or for just, you know, what they thought was right. And a lot of them end up dying because of it, you know, and a lot of them end up getting killed because of it, I should say.

So I mean, that's pretty inspirational. No, I agree. And I think, yeah, like, kind of like you experienced too, sometimes, especially if you come from a broken family, the idea of like God as a father is like, can turn you off a ton. It's like, my goodness, like, you know, if you had a bad relationship with your dad or he mistreated you, it's like, why would I want any sort of father in my life?

And so like you experienced with, um, with Mary, the saints from what I've seen are these, and by definition, just for everyone who doesn't know this, um, saints are people who, um, um, live lives of heroic virtue, who have, you know, just were incredibly virtuous people. And so, you know, the typical people you think of are, you know, Mother Teresa.

You think of Pope John Paul II. You think of, you [01:04:00] know, any number of people that are kind of these well known quote unquote saints. And so, yeah, looking at them though, they best reflect God on earth. And so like you're saying, Bri, if you, you know, are maybe hesitant to go to God, just look at their lives, just see, see the way they lived and see if that's something that's compelling and maybe better than the life that you're living now.

And, and for me, that's been, it's been so inspirational and really challenging too. It's kind of, it's almost like we were saying before with your friends, if you surround yourself with like saints, it's like, my goodness, like I have a lot to work on and I want a lot, a lot to go through. So anyway, there's so much there.

And, um, and the one final thing I was just going to mention about like pain and suffering Cause I've really struggled with this. Like, I, I've really gone through seasons of my life where it's like, God, when my family was falling apart, when my parents were getting divorced, when, you know, all these bad things were happening, like, where were you?

Because it honestly seemed like he was just, like, absent. It seemed like he had abandoned us. It seemed like he was just, like, sitting on the sidelines, uh, watching, you know, us kind of get beat up. And so it took a lot of time. A lot of prayer, a lot of, um, you know, listening. walking with [01:05:00] mentors spiritual direction for me and To kind of see that he wasn't just standing in the distance He was actually right there in the midst of it working in the background and what I have liked him to make himself more obvious I would yeah, I really would have that would have been nice.

I would I liked some more quick fixes That would be really nice too. But for some reason He works silently in the background, and he, he works especially through other people, and, um, he plays the long game. The really long game sometimes. It's like, my goodness, like, a quick fix would be nice here or there.

So, there's something about that, though, that I think is worth, like, pondering. It's worth, um, wrestling with. So, no, it's so good. I, um, I wanted to just make this point and get your thoughts on it, too. Your story is just so beautiful and inspiring. And there really is this such clear theme of beauty in your story.

Obviously in the past, as you've shared, you've used your physical beauty in a way that you regret in a wrong way. But in Italy, you know, the beauty there sparked this longing in you for something greater. Like you wanted to experience that beauty again. You want to [01:06:00] experience those feelings like you said, and now, you know, you're using your beauty, you're using your story to inspire others and your eye for beauty, even to create this beautiful story.

Uh, and you know, rosaries, like you said, for other people. And so it's, it's really profound as I was thinking about you and your story. I'm like, it's really profound. This like theme of beauty, especially the whole fact that you were won by beauty, like beauty won you any thoughts on that? I think really like.

Conversion is where you find it. Uh, I was lucky enough to have some pretty beautiful women encourage me, you know, both literally physically in front of me and also, um, Mary as well, as well as St. Clair. But the gateway to God is just wherever it appears in front of you. And I have a pretty unique story, and I really like the way that you surmise that with like different elements of beauty.

But whatever it is that makes you truly feel better about yourself, [01:07:00] just go with it. Run with it. And that could be your gateway to God, your gateway to a better life, your gateway to feeling better about yourself. That's probably the first thing that you would hope your gate leads to. And I think that it is really fun how there's been this element of beauty, but it could be anything for anybody.

And like I said, even like St. Francis is like a gateway saint to Catholicism, but it doesn't even have to be full fledged Catholicism. Like take something in your life that you really appreciate or maybe even something that you're really good at. Or, you know, the combination of those two things, and run with it.

See what you can do. I'm amazed and just completely blown away by the success of my new rosary business. I mean, to think a person like me, who's not only Lutheran, recovering alcoholic, but also used to produce porn, and so many people want to [01:08:00] buy rosaries from me, like, what? It's amazing. Blessing isn't even the, a big enough word to describe what happened to me after I decided to make this switch.

And, uh, And ultimately, like, I think a lot of times what we tell people, or especially youth, is like, you want to do this to make God happy, or you're, you're trying to do it, like, it's for somebody else, you know, or like, this is the right thing to do, you're not supposed to make porn. Um, you're not supposed to steal or do other hoodlum type activities.

But instead of thinking about, you Doing what you're supposed to or what somebody tells you to just be selfish like do it for yourself You know find the beauty in your life so that it can outweigh the misery I think that anything that is beneficial to you can blossom into something that is beneficial for others, beneficial for even civilization, and wherever you can [01:09:00] find that in your life, go for it, run towards it, cling to it, do it.

So good. There's this thing I was reading about recently, it was actually in a book on like health and nutrition. And they're talking about this idea of like a helper's high, how when you just like help other people, if you donate your time, if you just help people who are in need, whatever that might look like.

I think the example they were giving it is like, uh, working at like a, a food kitchen where you're serving food to poor people. And um, yeah, they did, they've done studies on people who do that and they end up like living longer, like being happier, like having these better lives. Yeah. So it's fascinating.

So, so I think, you know, your point is, is, is a good one that, um, you know, if you can't find it in you to do it for other people, like do it for yourself. Cause truly like the kind of like your story, like my story, you know, we wanted to be happy. You wanted to experience that joy, that peace, that beauty that you experienced in Italy.

And I wanted to just not be so miserable and be happy. And, um, I think that that is like such a good thing. So yeah, what I would just like second is yeah. Anything that's good in your life, anything that's true, that's beautiful, like, you know, go [01:10:00] towards those things. And in the end, I think you'll end up, um, in a better spot in life and you'll be happier for it.

So, so, so good. I want to shift gears a little bit and I know we're running out of time here, but I'd love to just kind of give you these quick questions. Uh, one being, has there ever been, you know, maybe a temptation for you since your conversion to reject the body and sexuality because of the pain and the problems that it's brought into your life?

Um, to an extent, I think even during my career porn production. Like sex is completely skewed in my mind as to, you know, what it's supposed to be like, what we were talking about, making love, a relationship between a man and a woman, procreation, a beautiful union. Um, sex has never been like that for me. Uh, in college, it was all about, you know, filling the hole inside of me that made me hate myself.

and all throughout my 20s as well. And then I've really struggled sometimes, like, since I've converted [01:11:00] to keeping my thoughts pure and also what intimacy means to me necessarily. Like, because I did it for work for so long that, like, that kind of played out into my intimate life with my husband in a way where it was always like I was still on the job.

And since I quit and then also since converting, I've done a few things to help. Like we, we have a crucifix above our bed now. Um, you know, sometimes I'll pray and we're still trying to have a baby. Um, so it's become, it's easier with the help of God and the help of my, my true friends to be able to really connect with this man in a way that I haven't in many, many years.

And it's something that I didn't really think about until recently. And it's just, you know, another one of those things that I didn't even realize how this [01:12:00] affected this aspect of my life, but it really has. And I wish that somebody would have warned me. Again, thank you for just being so open and vulnerable.

Um, it makes sense. Again, I, I've heard that there's a lot of women, especially women in porn who in their personal life kind of become asexual. They kind of don't want anything to really do with sex. Um, which is kind of ironic cause you know, the, what's being acted out on screen is that, you know, often these women being like ultra sexual.

And, and so it's just very ironic that. That would then end up making them the opposite, asexual, in many ways. And so it is, it is so sad because there's supposed to be so much, like, goodness and beauty that comes from that part of life. And the, part of the reason I wanted to talk to you about this is because I think, especially in American culture, I think the Europeans aren't as susceptible to this, at least the southern, uh, countries.

There's like this real temptation to like reject the body and sexuality to see it as something like that's kind of bad and dirty. And it goes back to [01:13:00] this idea of Gnosticism years ago where they thought that anything spiritual was good and anything material like the body was bad. And so you kind of just put up with the body and then you and and just for all those listeners, I know you know this, but, um, you know, you kind of put up with the body and put up with sex because it's needed to kind of.

have babies and keep our species alive. Um, but there shouldn't be much pleasure derived from it and it shouldn't be this good and like beautiful thing. And, and so it's been, um, some, you know, denominations of Christianity have kind of latched onto that. I think it's gotten so much better over the years, but, um, certainly in American culture, there's this prudishness, there's this puritanism that is really toxic.

It's really bad. And the history of the sexual revolution itself is fascinating because the Hugh Hefner in particular, um, he grew up in a very prudish Christian family. And he rejected that prudishness, which he should have, by the way, but he went way too far in the opposite direction with kind of, quote, unquote, liberating the body and sexuality.

And so it's really just such an interesting thing. And I think an important conversation to have when it comes to, [01:14:00] yeah, kind of putting the body and sexuality in its proper place and seeing the beauty in it and seeing the glory in it and seeing that, um, yeah, it's not perfect. And I don't mean to like, make it sound like, you know, if you have the.

proper view of sexuality and you're kind of healed and your sex life is going to be amazing in your marriage and things are going to be awesome. Like, no, it's, it's messy. We're broken as humans. And so things are always never going to be a utopia. That's not what I'm saying. But I think that, uh, that the root of that has caused a lot of problems and like really truly the pervasiveness of pornography today comes directly from that.

Um, that kind of view on like the bonding sexuality. So yeah, I just wanted to dig into that with you. Any final thoughts before I move on? Um, yeah, I think that to view sex as scandalous and something that's wrong and bad and filthy can be just as detrimental as the flip side. Um, and yeah, I guess like you see it in Hugh Hefner, like you said.

And I think that it's one of those [01:15:00] things that really needs its proper place, and beauty is a big part of it. Beauty, love, acceptance, all those things go into a great relationship. I couldn't agree more. Have you been tempted to kind of hate yourself for your past? And if so, how have you dealt with that?

Certainly. Um, like I said, it's not just about porn production. It's like all of us, we have, you know, we all have pasts, we all have sins, we all have regrets. And I think really one of the best ways that I've dealt with this is, again, while talking to people who have been there, who also made poor decisions and then have rectified, remedied their lives.

You know, we're like, you can read, again, you can read about different saints that, and they're not all spectacular, you know, Mother Teresa. Like a lot of them [01:16:00] come from certain backgrounds and then have changed for the better. You know, a lot of people Mary Magdalene to me and she was a prostitute. And then, you know, she became one of Jesus's most trusted disciples.

Um, but also you can find those people in your life now. I can't stress the importance of, you know, um, talking to other people, especially in your own situations. AA was a huge resource for me. Um, And during that first year, it was really one of the best things that had ever happened to me. It was the greatest thing in my life.

And a lot of that is because, you know, I talked with people who were freely, openly discussing all the horrible things that they did when, you know, they were drinking. And now, okay, so not only was that like completely mind blowing, that you're just like, [01:17:00] Openly talking about how you got fired from your job or how you like you stole your daughter's lunch money like to buy booze you're just saying that like that is inspirational and and once you've told your Rock bottom story to a room full of complete strangers your life will never be the same And so things like that I think are really helpful and they're helpful to understand that you're not alone.

They're helpful to understand that other people have done these things and worse and it's helpful to see people who have done these things worse and now are better because they've stopped doing them. Yeah, I've definitely been tempted. And, you know, several times in my life, too, and I've, I've gone as far as to say that, yeah, there were many, many years that I think that I just completely hated myself, but I, I hated myself more when I was in amongst the detrimental behavior, when I was drinking, when I was doing porn.

Now that I'm out of it, I like the way that you said, it's [01:18:00] tempting to still hate myself, but I have a hard time hating myself these days. I don't know if that sounds like egotistical, but, um, It's a good thing. Yeah. Um, because I just, I mean, the people that I engage with, the people that are in my life, my work is so rewarding.

I have all these incredible people and I have all these incredible resources and all this great love and beauty and just abundance and it's hard to hate myself because everything's just really, really nice. I mean, you know, like there's still tragedy, like I said, but I have, this whole toolbox full of resources that I can go to when I'm, you know, in, when I'm in the dumps or like, even when like something like will trigger a bad emotion or a bad memory.

And, um, and then I can go to this toolbox and I have different people, different things that I can listen to, different things that I can read, different prayers that I can say. [01:19:00] Whereas before when I was an alcoholic or when I did porn. My toolbox was, like, things that are just gonna make me feel worse.

And they're not really helpful at all, you know, like alcohol or sleeping around any of those things. I hear you and yeah I think it's a temptation for all of us in one way or another like to have like that proper love of ourselves like where It's not like you said on one extreme Egotistical we're obsessed with ourselves, but the other end it's a really bad and unhealthy thing to hate yourself to think so lowly of yourself So I love that you're in that like in that good spot now and yeah I, um, I certainly have my own regrets about my past, but I think there's something about God's mercy too that just helps you be merciful to yourself because once you experience like that forgiveness, you can then start to forgive yourself, which I think is probably harder than, than even like asking God for his forgiveness.

So yeah, that's beautiful. You've already talked a lot about different things that have helped you to heal. You know, like you mentioned going to A, you mentioned, you know, just being surrounded with good friends, the saints, like things like that. Has there been [01:20:00] anything else that's been really helpful as of now, um, when it comes to just healing that brokenness, healing the wounds from your past?

I think that therapy is still helpful, but I think it's also a combination of therapy and then my relationship with God. Like therapy itself didn't fill up everything, didn't help with everything. I agree. And, you know, I still have those same issues. Like, all of us who are addicted to something, it's not alcohol that I have a problem with, it's myself.

And I used alcohol in order to, like we discussed, like, get out of this reality and make me feel better about myself. But really, and the problem isn't alcohol, the problem is me. And so giving up alcohol, that's like one, a really great first step. And then, you know, working on yourself, going to therapy.

That's another really great first step. But I really have to say that it's because of God that I have this [01:21:00] complete. And total feeling of healing. And there are times that that complete, total feeling has cracks in it. And I'm kind of like, I think you kind of touched on this, like, you're kind of thinking like, Is this really, you know, for real?

Or, you know, am I just kind of lying to myself again? But, I don't think it's a lie. I know that my life has changed for the better because of those things that we talked about, but especially God. I can't, I can't say enough about that decision and really fully coming into the church and learning about God and learning about, you know, the gifts of the Holy Spirit and learning about all the ways that just increasing your relationship with Him will benefit you.

And Really, just to make you happier, like, uh, a more satisfied person living a more fulfilling life. God's the answer. So good. Do you ever feel tempted to go [01:22:00] back into that life? And if so, what Uh, yeah, how have you handled that? I wouldn't say that I feel tempted to go back to, like, drinking or producing pornography, but I really struggle, if I'm honest, I struggle a lot with going back to that same mentality of I'm not good enough, I'm not, I'm not enough, like, I just want to die.

And it can just be, like, one thing that happens and then another thing happens, and it's not even like a major event has occurred, but just like, I'll hear a song that reminds me of something. And I'm in this complete shame spiral that usually ends with, I feel completely alone and I really hate my life.

I'm tempted quite often to do that. And another, another benefit, another thing that I keep in my toolbox that I kind of trick myself with is, [01:23:00] uh, that I then think, what is your demon saying right now? Now, this sounds maybe kind of weird, but for over 20 years, I've had, These issues of negativity that I believe originated in college.

They stem from the fact that I didn't have a father figure and I never finished college and I'm just not good enough. And I call him the demon. Now that I've converted to Catholicism, like referring to this demon that lives inside of me is isn't really funny anymore. It's like almost kind of, Like I want to call him something else because now it kind of scares me the idea of this actual demon living inside of me.

But for the sake of this podcast, let's just refer to him as the demon as we always did before. And the demon loves it when I start to feel isolated. When I start to feel alone, he loves it. When I start to get nervous. About, you know, speaking out about my story or hosting a prayer [01:24:00] space on social media.

I start to get nervous about these things, like, who am I to do this? I used to be in porn, like, I used to be the scum of the earth. Who am I to host this prayer, this, um, novena? Who am I to go on your podcast, you know? Who am I to do any of these things? And I know that's my demon saying, and he wants to do whatever he can to keep me isolated, to keep me feeling like I hate myself and to keep me from spreading this joy that I have inside of me.

And I still have to watch out for that because I'm really susceptible to feelings of, um, self loathing. And it doesn't take much on some days for him to, to get under my skin. But then, really, when that happens, some days I have to admit that I'm still not good at relying on prayer and God for first thing.

Um, but it is a learning process. And some days when that happens, [01:25:00] I can so easily just let this demon get under my skin and convince me that I'm not good enough, that I shouldn't even be alive. But then most days I'm able to see what's happening. I'm able to recognize the demon for what he is, that he's trying to bring me down.

And I think one of the reasons why this demon loves bringing me down and is always trying to bring me down is because I'm afraid of success. What will that mean if I'm successful? If I'm, you know, and I'm not talking about, like, a successful porn star, like, that's not real success. But, how about if I'm successful in, like, being a, uh, Christian inspiration?

Like, yowza. That's kind of scary, huh? Like, then you're going to have to continue to be this Christian inspiration. You're going to have to continue to be successful. And look at all these people who are going to look up to you now. And then that's when either the demon or the angel can win of like, don't worry about it.

My angel will tell me. My guardian angel. Brie, you're [01:26:00] gonna be great. Brie, you're going to be inspirational and you're doing this for God, for the people who possibly will um, be inspired by you. And you're also doing this because Just imagine how happy that demon of yours is going to be if you don't do this podcast and like how he thinks that he's going to have won.

And then I get really freaked out and I'm like, I am not going to let him win. And I, you know, pull on my boots and, uh, pick myself up by my bootstraps, whatever, and, and I get it done. And I go wholeheartedly in on it because, mainly because I don't want the demon to win. Uh, You're a fighter. So good. Thanks for, again, sharing so vulnerably.

You've been so open, and I know it's so helpful to everyone listening, and yeah, gosh. No, and I speak on behalf of the audience when I say, man, I hope you can see the goodness and the beauty in you and your story. It's, it's incredible. It really is. And so, yeah, yeah. I hope you can continually be [01:27:00] reminded about that, because we need to be reminded as humans more than we need to be taught, I think.

And I remember the story of John Paul II. So, you know, he's this Polish priest who becomes Pope. He goes back to Poland. Um, I, I don't know if he was Pope at that point or just a bishop, but I think he was Pope and he, you know, at this point, after the Nazis left, you know, Poland during World War II, the Soviets took over, the Russians took over.

And in many ways, they were worse than the Nazis, which is hard to believe because they were just, you know, kind of more insidious and they were doing things in the dark and trying to just control the Polish people and to manipulate them and get them to, you know, give up. especially faith and morals and everything like that.

And one of the ways that they did that was trying to redefine their identity as people, as humans, but especially as, as Polish culture, like they wanted to snuff out, you know, Polish culture and different formats, like whatever it was, literature, art, theater, things like that, from my understanding of it.

And so John Paul goes back to Poland and he says, You are not who they say you are. Like, let me [01:28:00] remind you of who you are. You are not who they say you are. Let me remind you of who you are. And I think there's like, it gives me the chills to think about that scene of him, like shouting that to them.

Because I think as humans, we all need to hear that. It's like, we're all told whether it's by like that, you know, like you said that. evil like wolf inside of us, that whole analogy of like you have two wolves inside you, the good and the bad fighting, and the one that will win is the one you feed. Um, we all have that going on at some level, some more intensely than others.

And, um, and I think it's so important that we are reminded, especially by the other people in our life, um, you know, that there is so much goodness, like we have this so much inherent value and worth. and dignity that cannot be erased even by the poor decisions that we make. And we need to just rediscover that, restore that, bring that back to life.

And, uh, and I, yeah, I hope you can continue to do that. Cause, cause I certainly see it and I know our listeners do too. Thank you, of course in closing out. I just love you to speak to your younger self I'm curious what advice you would offer to kind of two parts of your life one Maybe you're considering getting into the porn and only fans [01:29:00] world and I'm so I'm curious kind of what would you say to that young?

Woman now, maybe she's even listening right now Someone out there, uh, what would you say when she's like kind of considering that? That's one question. The second one would be what about once you were in that life and you felt like it was the only way for you to make a living? Like, what advice would you give to that younger self or a girl listening right now who's in that space?

To the first girl, I would say, I know this seems like a great opportunity and it seems like easy money and a lot of fun perks, but you're going to regret this. It's going to change you in ways that you've never even considered. And instead, I'm really hoping that you will just find the beauty within yourself.

You will find something for you that makes you feel important and makes you feel special. And it's not this keep looking, but it's not this. You were made for something more than this. You are made in the image of [01:30:00] God and you're beautiful. You were made in his light and he wants more for you than just this.

And I think to the woman who is where I was, who is now full on into this industry on OnlyFans and I think that maybe you feel trapped and I know that I did when, when I was where you are and you're not trapped. It feels that way and it feels like this is maybe all that you can do. And it feels like maybe this is a really great life, but think about your future, and think about how this is affecting you now.

You don't even realize all the things that are seeping into your subconscious, and you don't even realize how narcissistic you're being, how egotistical you're becoming. Like, just listen to the way that you talk to people. It's not [01:31:00] normal. It's Just, just think about, you know, your income and the way you think about money.

Yeah, it seems really awesome right now, but it's a totally skewed sense of reality. You're not even living in the real world anymore, and it's going to have detrimental effects on you. And I think that for your own best interest, you should stop. Hmm. And there's such a better life ahead of them, like you said, I think.

Yeah, there's so much peace. There's so much joy. There's so much freedom that you can experience outside of that. So thank you for saying all that. Um, I wanted to, yeah. How could people find you online if they want to follow you and how could they, um, get to your Etsy store too? Please tell us about your business.

Oh yeah. Um, so I'm mainly active on X, formerly known as Twitter. And, um, I also have an Instagram account. You can find me in both places just by searching miss B converted. And then my Etsy store, if you'd like to check that out, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm constantly selling out of things, so if there's nothing in stock now, [01:32:00] um, just check back.

Like I said, it's been amazing, just an amazing success. And the address for that is avemariaeveryday. etsy. com. And thank you to everybody who has, uh, supported that business a lot. Absolutely. It's meant so much to me. No, you're offering a lot of valuable things. And so, yeah, make, we'll, we'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes so you guys can make use of that and follow Bri on social.

Bri, it's been such a pleasure talking with you. Um, yeah, so grateful for you and your story. And I know it's going to inspire a lot of people for, for many years to come. And you've already, you're reaching thousands of people through this show alone. So I wanted to give you the final word. Somewhat a similar question, but different.

I'm curious, like, What advice or encouragement would you give to maybe the men and women listening who they don't really see a problem with pornography? That's that's one question And I think a lot of our world is there right now The second one is what you know advice or encouragement would you give to maybe someone who does see the problem with pornography?

But [01:33:00] they feel stuck. They they have these unwanted sexual behaviors in their life They want to be free of them, but they feel stuck. So I'll give you the last word. Thank you for that opportunity. So To those of you that don't really think that Pornography is a big deal. I used to be right there with you.

In fact, I would actually, I mean, obviously what I would, I would encourage pornography because that was what I did. Um, but also even prior to that, I used to think of porn as, you know, it's a place where you can go to explore your fantasies. And this way, like, if your fantasies are kind of taboo, like, you don't have to act them out in the real world and you can just live vicariously this way.

But that's not how our human psyche works. And, like, if you have something that's taboo, you know, maybe you should talk to somebody about it instead of feeding it and engaging in it and some people might even say that watching pornography altogether is pretty taboo and I think that, you know, you can choose the, the wolf who you want [01:34:00] to feed, who is inside of you, who makes good decisions and who will lead you to a better life, or you can feed the wolf who is detrimental and, and you really have to, you know, So what you're putting into your mind, um, is it good or is it detrimental?

And, um, I think also, like, for people who think that porn's really not that big a deal, one thing that most people don't know about, and I, I think, Really love to educate more people about this is the link between pornography and sex trafficking. And for those of you that don't know, sex trafficking is where you steal someone and make them into your sex life or sell them for to be somebody else's sex slave.

I'm not really sure. Um, I'm sure that most people know the definition of that, but I want to be distinctly clear that sex trafficking is a crime. when it's done without the other person's consent. And a lot of pornography is actually just that. It's done [01:35:00] without the other person's consent. Um, I didn't know this when I was doing pornography, certainly not in my industry, but on major site, on major porn sites, a great majority of the people in those videos are doing this.

Against their will. And just by visiting that porn site, you are contributing to this. But not only that, when you get a subscription, even, you know, to places like OnlyFans, have you completely done all of your research as to where that money goes, and who this guy is, and who this company is? Uh, because sex trafficking, is one of the leading problems in this world.

I would say, like, one of the most horrific, disgusting things that has become so very popular. I don't think that people are, are even aware of the amount of people living now as sex slaves. That there are more people living now as a sex slave [01:36:00] than there were slaves in all of Egypt, than there were all the slaves within, you know, prior to the Civil Rights Emancipation.

And you don't see it every day. Uh, you don't, it's not, it's very, very hidden, but watching porn, producing porn, even scanning like free porn sites, all of those things you're doing is to support people who, who are forced to be sex slaves. And like, how gross is that? You don't want to be a part of that. You don't want to support that.

And. Most of you probably haven't even considered that, but look into it, do your research and make sure that you know, you know, everything that you're talking about and make sure that you know that about all the, the hidden facets of this CD world, because it's not beneficial. It's not helpful. It destroys lives.

It destroys marriages, destroys families. And you could have something so much better. And if you yourself are struggling with pornography, with an addiction to [01:37:00] pornography, I'm really sorry for that. And, um, there's a couple of amazing resources out there. There's, um, a website called Covenant Eyes. It's where you can go and sign up to have someone be accountable for what you watch online.

Um, there's strive21. com, which is a resource specifically for men who are addicted to pornography. Uh, it's run by Matt Fradd, who, he does the, um, Pints with Aquinas show. He's really goofy and I like him. Um, and then there's, uh, Magdala Ministries, who is run by a woman who herself, she was addicted to pornography and has since completely turned her life around and offers ministry for women who are in that situation and support groups and um, chat rooms, that sort of thing.

So really, I'm sorry that you're going through this. I'm sorry for the part that I [01:38:00] played even indirectly. But I'm glad that you want help. I'm glad that you want to stop. That's like a really hard decision to make. And I hope that those resources will be great for you. And, um, I also encourage people like if you want to reach out to me, that's okay too.

I've had several people, even former clients of mine who have. converted just based on witnessing like the joy that I feel and just based solely on witnessing my transformation that they wanted that for themselves. And isn't that cool that like the woman that I met at the priest's office, she was that for me.

And now I could be that for someone else. Like, I think that's pretty cool. And, um, and so I'm, you know, in, I'm in no way qualified to be professional help, but I can help, I can listen. And also I can help steer you into the right path.

 If you want to know more about human trafficking and sex slavery like Brie mentioned, I totally recommend checking out the movie [01:39:00] Sound of Freedom. Some of you have probably already seen it, but you can stream it anywhere like Amazon Prime and it's definitely worth the four or five bucks. And if you want to take Brie's advice and learn more about the harms of pornography and how to overcome unwanted sexual behavior, I wanted to mention a few resources in addition to what she recommended.

The first is a book called Forged by Matt Fradd and Jason Everett. It's a 33 day challenge to help men specifically break free from porn and unwanted sexual behavior. The next one is called Fight the New Drug. It's an awesome organization that makes the research on the harms of pornography really easy to understand and it's totally secular, not religious at all.

I'd also humbly recommend listening to our podcast series called Healing Sexual Brokenness. In the series, we just interview a lot of experts and they give really practical tactics and resources that you can use to overcome unwanted sexual behavior, and it's so relevant for people like us from broken families because like I said in the interview, one expert found that almost 90 percent of people with a sexual addiction come from a broken family, and so it's super helpful for people like us.

And if you want to listen to that, there's two ways to do so. On your [01:40:00] podcast app, just make sure to select a podcast. Our show restored helping children of divorce, and you can search healing, sexual brokenness, and you'll see all of those episodes, or you can just click on the link in the show notes, which will bring you to restored ministry.

com slash sexual brokenness, where you'll see all the episodes and you can select the one that you want to listen to. And finally, because the topic of suicide came up, if you or someone you know is thinking about committing suicide, just call or text the number nine, eight, It's just three numbers, 9 8 8.

Uh, again, call or text 9 8 8 or go to their website, 9 8 8 Lifeline. com. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, feel free to take 30 seconds now and send it over to them. If someone would have done that to me as someone who comes from a broken family, I would have been super, super grateful for that friend.

In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, [01:41:00] you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#125: Is Marriage Doomed to Fail? | Michael & Rachel Villanueva

For people like us from divorced and broken families, love and marriage can be extra scary. After my parents separated, I swore, “If this is where marriage leads, I want nothing to do with it.”

But thankfully, love and marriage aren’t doomed to fail. Marriage isn’t easy, but it can be beautiful and joyful. More importantly, it can help you grow into a better, stronger, and more virtuous person. 

Today, we’re joined by a married couple to discuss all of that, plus:

• The struggles they’ve faced within their marriage, especially around unmet expectations and brokenness

• The joy and beauty that they’ve experienced in their marriage and family

• What topics you need to discuss before you get married

Listen to All Things Nueva: Apple, Spotify

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Impossible Marriages Redeemed - Leila Miller

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

 [00:00:00] For people like us who come from broken or divorced families, love and marriage can feel extra scary. I remember when my parents separated, I swore if this is where love and marriage leads, I want nothing to do with it. It terrified me. But thankfully, love and marriage aren't doomed to fail. Marriage isn't easy, but it can be really good and beautiful and joyful.

And more importantly, can help you become this healthier, stronger, more virtuous person. I'm joined today by a married couple to discuss all of that. Plus, we talk about the struggles that they face. Within their marriage, especially around unmet expectations and brokenness, the joy and the beauty that they've experienced in the marriage too.

And don't just talk about the bad and the struggles. We talk about the good too. There's a lot of good that can come from marriage. We also hit on the signs of a healthy marriage and family, how healthy marriages and families differ from broken marriages and families. We touched on how the rupture and repair cycle that often happens within marriage can actually make you stronger.

And finally, talk about what topics you need to discuss with your significant other, your boyfriend, girlfriend, before you get married. Married. And so, if you want love, maybe you feel [00:01:00] afraid or you feel held back in pursuing it, this episode will help you. Stay with us. Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panerelli. This is episode 125. We're so happy that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard lots of great feedback on our content, not just this podcast, but other content as well, like our book and speaking engagements. One young woman said this, she heard us speak at a speaking engagement in Denver.

She said, I went to a friend's house this weekend for a girl's game night. The girl I sat next to just got married within the last seven months. She said she watched your marriage talk three times because she thought it was so helpful. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful. [00:02:00] At the end of this episode, we're actually going to give you the recording of that talk and a free guide that just summarizes the talk, the main points on how to build a really healthy relationship and ultimately marriage.

Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful. Today's episode is sponsored by Blackstone. In a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of Millennials said video is their top content choice. That's not really surprising, but if you run a business or ministry, are you taking advantage of that?

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They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel. They can create trailers, promo videos and commercials, social media videos, documentaries, fundraising [00:03:00] videos, and courses. We actually built Produced two courses with them, had an excellent experience with their team.

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I'm joined today by two guests, Michael and Rachel Villanueva. Michael and Rachel were married in July, 2017, after an adventurous and unexpected journey. Both have a passion for sharing God's incredible plan for marriage, family, and human sexuality, having earned their master's from the John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family in Washington, D.

C. D. C. Their podcast, All Things [00:04:00] Nueva, has proven to be an effective companion to their speaking and teaching ministry and can be found wherever you listen to podcasts. Once, when they were first getting to know each other, Rachel told Michael that they couldn't be friends since he didn't drink coffee.

Michael now drinks coffee. Uh, they currently reside in Phoenix and have five children, one in heaven and four on earth. So if you couldn't tell in this episode, we're going to talk a bit about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast wherever you're at.

I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, I just invite you to listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And with that, here's our conversation. Rachel, Michael, great to have you guys. Thanks for having us. We're super excited to be here.

I'm excited to learn more about your story. I know kind of the last time our friendships left off, we were in college and that was kind of it, um, we caught up a little bit before the recording, but give us, if you would, a quick summary, I guess, of your relationship, how you guys met and how you ended up where you are today.

Well, [00:05:00] it all started one fateful moment at the, at the toaster, actually a toaster in the cafeteria at the college we went to. Yeah. You know, I was just there toasting a bagel and Michael super friendly walked up, said hello. And literally the first thing that went through my mind was, you know, Why is he talking to me?

Like, I just want to eat my bagel and get my coffee. And so, yeah, we just kind of, we knew each other. We had a class together, but from the beginning you could kind of tell we were opposites. I sat in the front of the classroom. He sat in the back. We didn't really talk much after that encounter. Introvert, extrovert.

Yeah. And it wasn't until about a year later that we got to really know each other while we were studying abroad in, in Austria, smaller group of people kind of just drawn to each other. I mean, You're traveling all over, let's be honest, in Europe. It's very easy to fall in love. And that's kind of what happened between us.

But there are some obstacles, some major obstacles right away, um, because Michael was discerning to be a priest. Yes, I was [00:06:00] part of the discernment program at Franciscan and obviously wasn't. planning to fall in love because we had taken a non dating commitment, but the hills were alive with the sound of music.

And, uh, and long story short, like that, that was a semester where, yeah, we were just drawn to each other. We, we fell for each other, but Um, God had different plans or God had a plan for us to kind of go our separate ways after college. Yeah. So we never dated actually, um, we never dated in college. And once we graduated, we kind of cut off all communications and pursued our own paths.

Michael went, um, and became a seminarian for three and a half years here in the Diocese of Phoenix where we're residing now. And I had a couple of different adventures, teaching high school and traveling. And it was really interesting. Because for both of us, it was when we got to a point where we were completely surrendering our lives to God and super excited for what he had in store, that he revealed the other person to us.

And we were kind of brought back together. Kind of [00:07:00] revealed the vocation of marriage in a real way, in terms of our discernment. And we love to reflect back on how. Pursuing God with all of our heart, even in doing so having to sacrifice a lot, you know, and, and even, even each other in a real way that led to a deep freedom and peace.

And from that, the Lord was able to give us, uh, the gift of marriage on each other so that we could, we could really receive it as a gift and not, not, not go into it, grasping for the other person, the other person or for marriage itself as a vocation. So good. Okay. No, beautiful story. And then you guys, um, yeah, I guess reconnected.

How long did you date before engagement? Curious about all that. Well, we reconnected after I discerned out of seminary. Yes, he actually ended up moving to Washington D. C. where I was living without telling me. He moved there. The day he arrived, he called me. He said he was in town, that he wanted to get together.

And in my mind, he's like very close to becoming a deacon in the church. [00:08:00] Um, and so I thought it was something that he needed to rehash from the past. Needless to say, it wasn't. He, you know, God had revealed to him that Um, he was not called to be a priest. And so at first I was very, very shocked and I was very hesitant because there was a lot of hurt and pain from the past.

Um, and so how was I sure that he wasn't going to quote unquote leave again. And so I kind of put a full stop on any type of relationship right away. And I really wanted to be friends for a little while. So we were friends for about three months, hanging out in groups, getting to re know each other. And then we started dating and we dated for three months.

Nine months, we dated for nine months, um, got engaged, we were engaged for seven months and then married in July of two thousand and seventeen. I'm the one that always forgets. So we'll be married seven years. Yeah, this coming year. This year. Beautiful. Okay. Wow, amazing. Thanks for filling us in. And well, we're going to get more into kind [00:09:00] of your marriage and family a little bit later, but I want to start in maybe a less obvious place.

What, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, what sort of problems, I guess, have you guys faced within marriage? What sort of challenges? Whatever you're comfortable sharing, you know, there's no problems once you get married, right? It's all perfect. That's, that's the point that we want to make, right?

Is that, you know, we are honored that you asked us to talk about healthy families. But we wanted to make it clear like we're talking about striving to be a healthy marriage and family rather than a perfect marriage and a family. I know for me, kind of because I think of our story and the time that we were apart, I tended to like idolize Michael and who I thought he was.

He was like this perfect person that I couldn't have. And then. When it became a possibility that we could be in a relationship together, I mean, we're both overjoyed and really excited, but I still have this image of he's so perfect. And then when we got married, I mean, very [00:10:00] quickly, you just see that the person that you love and that you, you know, gave your life to is not perfect.

And so there's this real temptation in our world to say, Oh, like did I marry the right person or you're not who I thought you were. And I think there's a little bit of a truth to that, but I think the real thing that we need to recognize was the problem wasn't with Michael because no person is going to be perfect.

The problem really was with me and my expectations of what I thought marriage would be like, um, the idealized version, the idealized version, because the reality is, you know, I mean, we're all on a journey and what marriage is, is inviting another person to walk with you on that journey, that journey towards wholeness and towards healing.

And so when you come up against. You know issues or problems or struggles and trials. It's not like I'm gonna turn away from you It's asking the person to walk alongside with you to love you in those [00:11:00] places Where maybe you didn't even know that you were weak or that you didn't even know that you struggled And so I know for me that's just been a real challenge during the first couple of years Wow.

You went deep really quick, um, to kind of follow suit on that. I think we have some, some good practice, uh, more, it's all practical, but anyway, another one that came up while she was talking was in relationships in general that have a certain level of intimacy, but then especially in the married relationship, there's so many, because of how intimate the relationship is, you are there with your beloved and a lot of times lifeful in that setting.

Your baggage will arise, which will come up and it should, but it's painful. And so I think one of the big struggles was having the person that you love, that you've given your life to witness all of your baggage, all of your, can I say crap? You know, all of all of that coming out in real [00:12:00] life and having to navigate that.

And it's a risk because you're like, we've given our lives to each other, but. Will you still love me? Is this too much? Is this too much? If I show this part of myself, if you've seen me really like yell at the kids or yell at you, is like, is, are you going to walk away? Is this too much for you? It's, it's two sides of the same coin and, and this speaks to The experience of a healthy marriage and a family is that when that happens, are you able to communicate your fears and how much that hurts to have your struggles on display in front of your beloved and to, in real ways to, to fall short in loving your beloved, but then on the other hand of, on the other side of that coin is this deep glory of receiving love, the love of, of your beloved, even when you feel most unlovable.

That truly has been the experience of, of the love of God through my spouse in those situations. Beautiful. Those are such good points. Um, I want to go [00:13:00] back a little bit and talk about the expectations. Rachel, I'm curious, kind of two questions for you. One, what do you think contributed to your idolization of marriage?

And two, what helped you overcome it or maybe like work through the, what's the word, disillusionment when you were like kind of hit in the face with that? For sure. Well, I think expectation wise in college, I came in contact with some really amazing families and they invited actually both myself and Michael into their life and not that I actually had a really good family growing up.

But I think it was, it was just something that was different about seeing another family, how they live, how they love each other and the faith that really just sparked a desire within myself. Like I want that. And I think that's really good. I think that's really important. But the reality is I would walk into their house.

They would host me. It'd be what, like two hours. I would see some messiness and then I'd walk away. Um, and so. There's a sense of like, oh, they have the most perfect life [00:14:00] together and I like, I want that. And then when you get married and you're living with somebody day in and day out, and difficulties hit you, exhaustion hits you, just the struggle of daily life.

You're like, but there's a temptation to say, this doesn't look like the way I thought it would. I didn't sign up for this sort of thing. Yeah, I didn't sign up for this. I wanted it to be better. I wanted to be better. And, and in some ways, I think that's also good to recognize, like, where are we struggling?

Like, is it just the daily life and the reality of like the struggles that are naturally going to come? Or are there places that we're Being called to grow and to be more honest with each other of I expect more of you. I expect more of myself and so we actually need to work to be the family and to be the married couple that we want to be.

This is just not going to be given to us. Um, we have to put some effort into it and that means we need to be really honest with each other. [00:15:00] Um, in a very loving way, caveat, in a very loving way, um, in a, in a place of like safe space. Um, so we've actually created like a safe place within our marriage to bring up difficulties So we know that every week we'll sit down on Sunday nights and we kind of do just a whether we want to or not, a lot of times we don't want to, um, we do a time of prayer to start off.

We pray with each other and then we ask each other some really you know, deep questions such as like, how have you felt loved by me this in this past week? How have you been annoyed by me in this past week? And how can I improve? Um, how did you really try to intentionally love me this week? Um, and it's just this, this area that we know we can meet on each week.

So if something comes up during the week, it may not be the right time to speak about it, but I know I have Sunday night. And this is a place where it's not. To condemn the other person, it's not to shame them, but it's like, you know, things are not the way that I want them to be. They're not the way that I want them to [00:16:00] be and I want us to be better.

Um, so let's grow. And so it's become our, like our safe place to, to have some really difficult conversations. So that's really helped. I love that tactic and Michael definitely opened anything you would add there too, but one thing I was thinking is that when you idolize marriage, which I certainly fell into too, um, in my situation, I went through kind of a pendulum swing on one end of the spectrum after my parents separated and later divorced, I just had this intense fear of, of marriage, of love.

I was like, why in the world would I want to go through that? You know, if this is where marriage leads, I want no part in it. So it kind of was like, not, not interested. And then once I just saw the beauty in it, I was like, man, I want that. But I wanted so much the opposite of what my parents had that I kind of fell into what you described so well, Rachel, thinking like, oh, well, I'm going to make it perfect.

It's going to be incredible. It's going to be like flawless. And then I realized very quickly, like that is a recipe for disaster. And, you know, it creates marriage into this idol. And I think it was C. S. Lewis who said that idols always [00:17:00] break the heart. And so I think there's something like really profound in that we kind of need to go through that death aspect, which is hard.

And it sounds like you kind of went through that just realizing like, man, this is not what I, you know, thought it would be. But I want to give people hope, especially young people listening who maybe are in that spot of like idolizing marriage or running from it. That it actually, that death can actually open a door.

It could bring like new life, kind of like the seasons of, you know, the year, like the winter season. We'll bring spring like there's something actually that's more real, deeper, more beautiful, more joyful than you could imagine when you were kind of just picturing this fairy tale. Sorry, absolutely, absolutely.

I always like to say that the depth to which we experience sorrow and suffering is the depth. To which we are called to experience love. And so, and then that's the real place that we are called to be is in this place of love and joy. Um, and so it's a temptation when we experience heartache and suffering to, to just kind of write it off and I don't even want to go there, but if you kind of flip it and say, I am [00:18:00] called at a deeper level to experience real love here.

I think it can provide a real place of hope. And you should hope because that's what we want. The deepest desire of our heart is a love that's going to last forever. And that's very real. Yeah. I, what you said, Joey reminded me of the, uh, you know, Jesus's parable of the seed that needs to fall to the ground and die so that it can bear abundant fruit.

And. You know, we, we think about that death a lot, but what maybe goes over our head is just the, the great power embedded in, in the seed already for it to bear abundant fruit. If it gives of itself fully to kind of make it practical, what this conversation is bringing up for me is what my counselor and therapist brought up once that I was really.

Especially during a particular time of life, a few years ago, really struggling with being a young father of young kids and seeing some ugliness that was, was coming up in situations of stress [00:19:00] and exhaustion and just not, not knowing how to deal with them. And there was a sense of hopelessness, um, that I was going in there with just like, man, what, what do I do?

Like, I want to be a great dad. I thought I was really good with kids beforehand. And I had a heart and have a heart for them, but just in these situations, I just, wow, like, I don't want to go there, you know, and so I'm, there's a fear and over and over again, my therapist would, would just say, all right, Michael, let's, let's stop right there.

And I want you to imagine, like, imagine all of that ugliness, all of the shortcomings, all of the fear, imagine the place where that is gone, where that's been healed, where that's been worked through. Thank you. Now imagine what's going to fill that place if in terms of healing, in terms of goodness, in terms of what you were truly made for to be in terms of a husband and a father, like imagine the good that that vacuum opens up.

Now, like, what would that look [00:20:00] like? And I just, I just remember that reshifting my whole perspective of not necessarily forgetting about the struggles, but reorienting them. Like, this, I, this needs to be worked on, but there's so much good that, um, is inside of me. That I meant for, and with God's grace and real help, you know, from counselors, spiritual directors, my wife and effort, you know, hard work, what good can, can be truly in its place.

So that, that gave a real sense of hope. Beautiful. No, I love that. I think, um, one of the things I've noticed in my own life is when we go through those sorts of transformations where we truly like turn a corner, we see some real improvement in our lives, like kind of a measurable improvement. Um, not necessarily with numbers, but things we can like recognize that like, wow, I'm a different person now.

Um, I think we kind of forget them over the years. I think it's kind of like we, you know, just go through life. Like it's a grind at times. It's stressful. There's a lot in our minds. There's a lot to do, never enough time to do it. Um, and I think we [00:21:00] can forget those transformations, important to remember for maybe this reason among others that they kind of prove to us that we can further transform because I know for me so often when I'm facing like a problem in my life where I'm like, okay, you know, I realized like there's some virtue needs to be built in this area or I need to, you know, change this or change that.

It can feel, you can feel stuck. It can feel really debilitating. It can feel like, man, I can't really get past that. Um, but remembering that you have done this in the past, I think is really beautiful. And then of course, you know, as both of us would say, like God's grace is going to play a major role in that as well.

But I think, I think that's really, really important, but I know we could talk forever about all of this. I did want to go back to something else you guys said, which I think is really important. And our audience want to hear more about, and that is just this reality of like vulnerability. baggage, messiness, kind of showing up within marriage.

I think that could be a very sobering experience, especially if it starts to happen in like a dating relationship where, you know, Rachel, like you said, you kind of, this kind of like even idolized version of, of Michael in your mind, you, you knew kind of, um, about him, but maybe didn't know the real [00:22:00] him. Um, or at least in.

Get to those steps at that point. And so I'm just curious when it comes to that, like, is there any advice you'd have for people who are maybe in that stage now, like they're kind of struggling with that, like, man, I thought this person was different. Um, now I'm realizing they're not, and I know this looks different in dating.

Cause if it's like a major thing, maybe you should break up. Like there's, there's nothing wrong with that. Um, in marriage. You know, obviously if you've made that commitment, it needs to be worked through. Maybe there is some serious things that need to happen in order to hopefully heal the marriage. But I'm just curious, maybe hit on both of those, the dating side of it and then the marriage side.

If someone's kind of just woken up to the fact they're not the person I thought, that they would be like, what advice would you give them? Yeah, I think let's just start at dating. That's probably the best. Um, like you said, Joey, I mean, when you're dating and you come across this person, maybe who's acting in a way or you find out parts about them that you didn't expect, there can be real red flags, you know, any type of abuse, right?

That's an absolute red flag. Lying can be like a red, a red flag. [00:23:00] Um, we've actually encountered a lot of couples who there's pornography use in the dating relationship. And we do say that's a red flag. Um, I would say, like, in general, when you have these red flags, it's not as if, okay, I need to cut off this relationship right away, unless I would say there's an abuse.

Unless it's extreme. Yeah. Extreme abuse. And then, and then to that. Yeah. Abuse is pretty extreme. But it, it's, it's more of like, Is this person willing to go through the process of healing? Because that's what marriage is in a lot of ways, as it says, it's an ongoing process of healing, of sanctification, of growing in virtue.

And so if you are dating somebody and you realize that they, um, they use pornography. Are this, is this person willing to give it up? You know, are they willing to go through that process of, of really being restored and healed? And if they are, I would say continue on with that relationship. Maybe hit a pause of like, it's not a good idea to enter into engagement or marriage right now, but let's get [00:24:00] the help that we need so that we can move forward.

That's what we're being called to doing. Yeah. I mean, the word that's coming up is accountability to come up with a plan for accountability together. This is a great way to in dating to further discern your call to marriage. Can we work together to help each other grow in these real important ways? The important thing for that is accountability to make this really Pornography, exposure, and then addiction, and then a real long struggle of seeking freedom, you know, is, is, is a huge part of my story maturing as a man.

And, um, even after my conversion in high school, then going through college and seminary and then grad school, and then in the beginnings of our dating, like I said, there was, there was this struggle for freedom. But as we were. Closing in on engagement, just really getting serious about that. I knew that I, one, that I loved her, that I wanted to [00:25:00] love her as much as possible.

And I knew pornography did not fit in that picture at all, even for myself too. But especially with her in this, in this picture. And so I knew, and this came through, you know, prayer advice from trusted people. Advisors, et cetera. I knew that I needed to be honest with her about that struggle in the appropriate ways and very prudent ways, um, in terms of details and things like that.

But and also to tell her of my conviction that. This needed to be rooted out completely. I'm willing to do it, but I need help. Um, and so we, we were able to have that conversation. Thanks be to God. And it wasn't just left at that. At that point, we were able to really work together on an accountability plan.

Every week, every week we committed and a particular time and day. We would, uh, yeah, she committed to being intentional of asking me how I was doing, have I fallen to those [00:26:00] things? And I committed to being completely honest about that. Um, And that was just one facet. I mean, we found necessary then for Michael to have accountability with some really good male friends of his to continue his counseling that it was already ongoing, you know, to seek time to actually pray together.

Um, To pray for his own healing. So all of those things kind of made up our story. And so that's why I say, when you see red flags and dating, it's not, um, it's not automatically, I need to move on. Cause if you're going to do that, you're never going to get married. That's honest. And I'll share the success story too.

I mean, I know this, it could look different, you know, it could be a lifelong struggle even after that accountability, but in our story, thanks be to God, I stand before you. It's virtually for you virtually, uh, eight years, eight years free of pornography. Um, and that, that's in God's grace, accountability of my spouse and.

So, I mean, I [00:27:00] guess then in marriage when, you know, things come up like they always will, it, it really depends on the issue, whether this is just like, are we learning how to parent together, which is a really big deal. Let's be honest. Or is it something like pornography or you're, um, some type of manipulation in, in the marriage where, Hey, this is not okay.

And, and maybe, you know, This is not just, you know, reading some books together and someone works online and having conversations. We need to seek outside help. We need to bring somebody else into this relationship to help us navigate what's going on so that we can truly love and we can truly be loved here.

Well, this happened during engagement, but as to what you said, like, are you comfortable sharing more about, you know, when we got engaged, your journey with anxiety? Sure. I mean, when Michael and I actually started dating, I was not quite sure about him and about She was happy for And about Three hours.

Yeah. And about what, what, what could be because he had kind of said [00:28:00] no in the past. Um, there was a real fear and so I experienced the luxury for the majority of our dating relationship. I was, um, in counseling for anxiety, extreme anxiety because of, no, he was, he was the trigger for something that was deeper within me and that's what I needed to realize and to work through.

Um, yeah. And so I, I pretty much was in counseling the entire time we were in dating and through a little bit of engagement to, to really see what's going on deeper here. Is it, is it Michael himself? Is he the red flag? Is this a no go? Or is there something that has gone wrong in my life in the past? Um, many different times that this is triggering.

Those, those emotions, those feelings, that woundedness that I really need to look into and peer into. Um, and I felt honored being invited into that journey, like as a boyfriend and then fiance, like to be invited into that journey with you in the appropriate ways to pray for you, to [00:29:00] support you, to, I think we even went to a counseling session together, um, work through some of that stuff too.

And that's why with dating advice, especially, it's so tempting to be like, is this person the one? Is this person the one? And then if you come up against struggles or difficulties, like, is this person the one? And my advice is always is like, don't ask that question. Do I want to be with this person today?

Like, do I desire to be with them today? And if I do, then let's keep moving forward. And until I have a very real reason that's not fear based, that I don't want to be with them anymore, then keep going. Like, keep saying yes. Keep, like, keep being vulnerable. Um, Really good stuff. Thanks for breaking down both.

That was a big question, but I love what you guys said. And I think, yeah, I think there, there's a lot of landmines that I think people step on in the dating world and then also within marriage. One of them. Yeah. Like when these things do come to light these struggles that we often maybe just run in the opposite direction.[00:30:00]

And that might not be the right course of action. In some cases it is, in other cases it's not. And so that's where it's so important, like you were just saying, to have people in your life who are speaking in those relationships. And what I always advise young people to do is, like, don't just, like, wait for that to show up.

You know, wait for people to kind of give you feedback. Actively seek it out. And, and ask those hard questions that maybe you don't really want to know the answer to, but asking questions as simple as like, you know, mom or dad, if you can have that conversation, if you can't, you know, your close friends, like, do you see any red flags in this relationship?

And, and those are like really serious things that, um, They're really helpful questions to ask because then you can understand if this person is the right person for you. But I think one of the worst pieces of advice that I had heard was that any Lack of peace in a relationship is a sign that it's not meant to be I think it's like really okay.

It seems like we're on the same page there I think it's really bad advice because especially with um my experience and rachel sounds like your experience but There can be something underneath it all that is causing the [00:31:00] anxiety, the fear, the lack of peace, not necessarily that the person isn't the right one for you.

So definitely, uh, on the same page with you guys there, I feel free to comment on any of that, but I did have one question. I think there is this like delicate line to walk where. It can be easy when one person in the relationship is struggling, whether you're dating or married, but I think it's more prominent in dating to be the savior, to be the one who kind of shows up and just says, well, I'm going to solve all your problems.

I am going to be the source of your healing as opposed to someone who's kind of walking with you, supporting you, loving you through it, but not necessarily the one who is, you know, providing all of that healing. So I'm just curious if you have any quick advice on that. Like, how do you, you already alluded to it a little bit, how there were multiple people involved helping you, but any other advice you'd add in terms of not.

Kind of becoming that savior. I think it, I think in terms of looking ourselves in the mirror and being striving for humility, you know, we, we should try and get to the point where on a daily basis where, yeah, we're, we're not the savior, right. We're not [00:32:00] someone's savior. As a, as her husband, like there have been times where she, you know, we're, we're struggling with something in our marriage or there's something happening that's, that's causing anxiety or fear or sadness or, or hope, but like, we don't know if it's going to be fulfilled that hope and, you know, I'm struggling within myself, but I see my wife struggling and that, that's a whole nother layer and I'm just There are times where I'm like, wow, this is so overwhelming of, you know, I desire, I want to be, I'm made to be her support in this, um, and vice versa.

But, but from my point of view, how can I be a support for her when I have all this turmoil going on myself? And so one that's, that's a, that's a good indication in the midst of the chaos that I can be her savior, but I am in a way her sacrament. And so I need to go to the source of that sacrament. I need to go to Christ and be like, Jesus, I'm on my knees here.

I need you to provide for me, be my stability, be [00:33:00] my pillar, be my strength, so that I can, one, be healthy and whole, but two, turn to my wife and be able to give that strength, provide that strength that you give in our marriage. Yeah, I think it's just in general, it's so important, whether you're in a dating relationship, whether you're married, whether you're single, that you realize you can't fix yourself.

And if you have this idea that I can't fix myself and I need, I need God, I need a relationship with somebody who can come in and love me in the places that I'm struggling to love myself. If I, in my, in that, just that daily life, realize I can't save myself, then when I'm in contact and when I'm in a relationship with another person, I'm not looking to him to save me and I know that I can't save him.

It's, it's always bringing another person into that. And for us, we really believe that that third person is God. And so I can't, that's why when Michael or when Michael fails, I'm not like, Oh, I married the wrong person. It's, Oh God, will you please come into this [00:34:00] place of struggle for us? Will you please come in and will you help heal this marriage?

Um, we need you. I can't heal him. He can't heal himself. We need you. Same thing as when I struggle. Like I know it's, I can't depend solely on him. Like, we need God's grace. Yeah. I'm, I'm getting this, this, the movie that's coming to mind is, it's a, it's a wonderful life and at the beginning, how. Actually, um, his wife, Mary Bailey, but then a bunch of the community, it starts off with them praying for George Bailey.

They can't save him. They're praying to God to help him. And how does he help him? It goes through the story of It's a Wonderful Life. Which you should watch, by the way. Yes. If you haven't. It is a wonderful movie. It is a wonderful movie. No, good, good stuff. And I love, um, I love too how God works through other people, like he's brought amazing mentors into my life who've just helped me grow more than I could ever imagine a dream.

So really, really beautiful. I definitely could talk to you guys forever, but I wanted to, along the lines of, you know, dating and marriage, like what are some of the topics that need to [00:35:00] be discussed before marriage? And feel free to add if you think there are some that definitely need to be discussed even before engagement.

But I'm just curious, like if you'd kind of list off some of the ones, like definitely talk about this, definitely talk about that. Yeah. Sex. Ha ha ha ha ha. Easy. Oh my, maybe not, like, maybe in the beginning of dating. For marriage, right? For marriage, so the engagement, and the enga Keep it deep real quick. I guess I did that kind of tongue, tongue in cheek or like to, but it's, it's true.

Like in, to make the point that you need to talk about the important things, the vulnerable, the things of the heart, things that really take vulnerability. And from our experience of, of accompanying couples, teaching marriage prep, we've seen that. you know, they get up to this day where we talk about the theology of the body.

We talk about, you know, the, the deepest meaning of the relationship between man and woman and God, and then including not all, but including the [00:36:00] sexual relationship and the meaning of it, the divine and human meaning of sexuality, sex itself. And you get to that point and you get to the discussions and in the feedback, they always say, These are topics we've never talked about.

We've never felt comfortable talking about until this point. Uh, yeah, it's amazing. Skirted around the issue. Yeah. It's amazing that people have been at this point in their relationship when they're engaged, um, have not maybe even talked about what their expectations are, where they first learned about sex and how that's kind of formed them.

Um, and it's, It's kind of a taboo topic in some ways, um, but the reality is when you're married, that married life, it's really, it's foundation. It's like definitive expression is this marital sexual love. And if something's wrong in the bedroom, something's wrong in the marriage. I don't, that's very, very true.

Very clear. It's this place where you're called to be completely and totally vulnerable and intimate with your spouse. Um, so I mean, [00:37:00] just going back one second, it's, you know, when you're dating, it's easy to have preliminary discussions about like finances and what our parenting styles will be. But I think a lot of times, even that, There, there are these ideas that we can kind of project in on the future.

What's it going to be like when we have kids, what's it going to be like when we have, you know, this income. But I think it's really important to stay at the level of just this place where you're called to be most intimate with your spouse and say, where are we now with this? Um, what are, yeah, where are we now?

How have we been formed? And yeah, to be able to ask some of those questions that I would say a lot of times engaged couples are really not asking. Yeah. So I mean, I think, okay, this sex is the paradigm. It's the key because why, what, what is it truly? It's a giving of your whole self freely, totally faithfully and fruitfully through your body.

Through the most intimate parts of your body, um, and, and yourself with your [00:38:00] beloved. And, and so that then provides the key to seeing, like, am I called, am I called to marry this person? In terms of, am I called to, am I able, am I comfortable, am I at the point where I can share everything, in the right ways, in the appropriate ways, with her, with my spouse, bank accounts, social media accounts.

My baggage, my woundedness. Yeah. So, say, Dating. Yeah. Maybe you're not talking, you know, specifics about expectations regarding sex yet, taking that paradigm. Like, how can I grow? Am I called to grow? Do I want to grow, uh, you know, invulnerability, sharing myself, the deepest parts, deeper parts of myself with my boyfriend or girlfriend.

Then as you progress along the, the dating engagement, and I mean, it be said, you know, like we do believe that dating. Has an end point. It's as a trajectory you're [00:39:00] discerning. Am I called to give my whole life to this person? And that goes in stages, but yeah, that, that vulnerability, that giving of self, that's what the, that's, that's the paradigm for growing in relationship.

With someone and I call it to grow deeper, more vulnerable with this person and am I at the point where I can receive this other person's vulnerability, their deepest selves and love them in that? Yeah, good stuff. No, I love that. And for those of you who may have never heard of this in the Catholic church, when you're going to get married, you take this thing called the focus inventory.

And it kind of helps to see how much of on the same page you and your potential spouse, future spouses. And I know the topics you guys just hit on are on that inventory. And it's just meant to be a, like a conversation tool where you can kind of delve deeper into those topics. So you guys mentioned sex, you mentioned money, you mentioned parenting.

Um, I know kind of like your family of origin, like your in laws is really important to talk about too. Um, and then communication styles, things like that. Really good. No, all that makes so much sense. And that's, [00:40:00] um, I think there's a lot of beauty in that. And I know with, we were going through marriage prep, we had a mentor, a couple who kind of walked us through it.

So someone who had been married much longer than, you know, we obviously were, and, uh, you know, I think they had like 30 years or something in marriage experience and they were able to kind of guide us through some discussions there and it brought some like, you know, Difficult topics that things that we haven't really discussed one of the thing I would throw in there is I think it is really important to Like you guys modeled so well to be honest about your past I think so often it's easier to not talk about that stuff There is a balance like you mentioned Michael like you don't need to divulge every little graphic detail of maybe, you know Sexual mistakes you made but it is really important So I remember, you know having that conversation with Um, my now wife, when we were just dating before we got engaged, I knew that was important for me to kind of open up to her about those things before, you know, asking her to marry me.

And so that was a really painful day, difficult conversation, but a really good and fruitful one as well. So moving on from there though, because we only have so much time left, I wanted to ask you [00:41:00] guys, um, if you would, to kind of bring us into like the, the joyful, beautiful parts of your marriage. I think, like I mentioned before, So often when we come from broken families, we, you know, run from marriage.

And I think what we need to be shown is that marriage can actually be really beautiful. It can be really joyful. It can be really, really good. And so I think, um, yeah, if you would kind of take us into that, like tell us, share us, take a picture of kind of how the good and the beautiful has existed in your family.

Marriage has helped me to, it's helped me to grow in love of My wife, my children, but also kind of in the healthy way, grow in love of myself to like be able to receive and accept the gift of myself. Why? Because I've seen love in the eyes of the other person looking back at me, even when I feel most unlovable.

Um, but also, I mean, the story that's coming up, it's like I had this. God bless my parents. But I had this kind of deformation of like being able to love myself in, in terms of gift [00:42:00] giving and gift receiving. And, uh, like, I, like, I, I love sports. I love like sports gear and things like that, basketball jerseys and things like that.

And, but I, you know, because of the, the circumstances of life, we, You know, we were forced to live very frugally growing up and that was probably the most prudent thing. But that, that caused this idea of this rebellion against material things. Like, you know, I can't, you know, more of like to the extreme of material things are not important.

It's the spiritual that's important. But these were things that really made me, me like, like, you know, but to get to the point. First year of marriage, you know, my birthday was coming up and I was like, there were things I really like loved and wanted and were excited about it came out with the new NBA basketball jerseys and I was, I was just like, you know, yeah, they were so cool and she could tell, she could tell, like, you know, me looking them up and just researching them and just enjoying them, but when it came to my birthday, she kept asking me like, what do you want?

What do you want? And I was like, ah, [00:43:00] I don't know. I don't know. And I knew, but I was too afraid to ask. I was too afraid to say this, you know, um, it costs too much money or whatever. It's not needed. And she was like, Michael, what about the jerseys you've been looking at? Something like that. And that as small as it may seem was a huge act of like being loved and who I, who I am, my joys.

Receiving healing, interior healing, a shift in vision that I can be delighted in, I can, I can be rejoiced and celebrated in, in a way that I would really receive love. Um, and so, you know, take that and then, I mean, that was already a big thing, but that's kind of an, also an image for, The joyful moments that I've experienced being married to this lady, I would say, I mean, for me, I'm thinking of like the times where I've been so overwhelmed and I'm like, I just need to, I just need like a moment out of the house and sometimes there have been certain times where I'll go out and there's, I get this moment and I'm like, Darn it.[00:44:00]

I want to be back in that craziness. Like I would choose that any day over this moment of loneliness that I'm recording, that I'm experiencing right now. Okay. That doesn't happen all the time sometimes. Um, and I just, it's that idea that I have my people like, and my, like, I'm a part of a family and a family that loves me.

And then it there's a, it's a safe place to fail. It's a place where at the end of the day, Oh gosh, love these little children at the end of the day where it's like, this has been the worst day ever. And I asked the kids like, how was your day? And you're like, it's the best day ever. It just, it put things, it puts everything in perspective to me that, you know, for them, those little, those hiccups that I experienced, those struggles, like the fact that we're just all here together, really trying to love each other for them.

That's, this is the best thing. Um, and it's really helped me kind of. It's, it's really helped me rejoice and this gift, this gift that I've [00:45:00] been given. Yeah. It made me, it made me think of too, like, uh, walking with, with Rachel and like, as her husband, seeing the times where she is struggling with something and then God provides for her in a particular way in terms of friend, I'm thinking in terms of like friendships that, that, that God has kind of just, Provided when she's needed it the most to see her kind of grow through that, that has brought so much joy to my heart.

Um, and then that it's extended to, you know, my kids, our kids, when we, when we see them just growing as people and you see their particular personalities come out. Magdalena, our oldest, she's so caring and she has this, this friend, this great friend, they're, they're thieves, thick as thieves. Um, but I remember this friend, uh, they were, they were young, still really young.

She got upset and I saw right away, she, she started crying and I saw Magdalena's eyes get really big, really concerned. And she ran off trying to find a toy to give to her, to console her. Like those moments where, [00:46:00] Yeah. I'm just inspired by my kids and I can, I'm just led to gratitude and joy. And yeah, those, those are really bright moments of Thanksgiving and gratitude and for the gift of marriage.

Yeah. Life is meant to be shared. That's just no other way around it. You're meant to live, live in communion with others. So good. Thanks for sharing all that. And now I remember, um, the researcher, Brené Brown saying that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering and another way, I guess, to say that it's like, like you said, Rachel, we're made for love, we're made for belonging, like we're made for other people.

And certainly there's challenges that come along with that, but there's so much good and so much beauty. And yeah, just kind of reflecting on how I might answer this question. I was just thinking like, yeah, there's, there's like a lot of challenges within marriage and family life, but there's so much good kids to say the cutest.

Most hilarious thing I remember one morning I was up with my daughter up with Lucy and I was asking her Hey, Lucy, like what do you want for breakfast? And she's like, I want ice cream for breakfast. That's like [00:47:00] I was like that that's a good answer, but it's it's not very common I said to eat eat ice cream for breakfast and she's like she looked at me.

She's like no, it's really common Don't understand. So like, she got me , , um, and like 1,000,001 other cute things. I have like a note on my phone, like Apple note on my phone of just like ridiculously cute things that she said and just like love that, love seeing, you know, her kind of experiencing things for the first time and just how much love like she has for us too is really, really beautiful.

Just like the affection or like you, you guys described with your daughter, she just like, is very empathetic. Like if we go anywhere and a baby's like crying off way in the distance, she's like. She's like, she's like, she's like, baby's sad, baby's sad. Um, so there's a lot of beauty there and it's just really the favorite, my favorite part of the day to spending time with her.

But yeah, when within marriage, I think too, there are a lot of different seasons. I think that's an important thing to mention too, where you're going through like just harder times and there's times where it's like more [00:48:00] joyful and less. challenging and yeah, I think both kind of play on each other. And yeah, I remember just traveling with my wife has been one of the funnest things we haven't been able to do a lot recently, but years ago we, you know, went to Italy and we, um, had like just a beautiful trip there.

And there were certainly some challenges even on the trip. I'm not going to like sugarcoat that, but like those like kind of peaks, the highlight moments were just like. Gosh, this is bliss. This is heavenly. And so I think, um, you know, if you expect your marriage to be like that constantly, you're going to be disappointed.

Um, but there certainly is a lot of that along the way and the harder I think you work at your marriage and making it healthy, uh, the more of those that will, will come about and you can actually kind of engineer them. You can create those two, um, with some creativity. You don't just need to like throw money at things like taking really expensive trips and things like that.

So anyway, a lot of good stuff there, um, that you guys shared. Thank you so much for that. Um, I, uh, man, I want to talk to you guys forever, but I do want to kind of end on this note of just kind of what are some of the signs of a healthy marriage and family? Um, I think this is really important to see because so often in our world we see dysfunctional broken [00:49:00] families and marriages.

And so kind of what would you guys say are some of the signs of a healthy marriage and family? I'm going to start. Can you say, I'm sorry to each other. And that means everybody within the family. And that's something I've learned. I've definitely learned. Michael has modeled that for me to be able to know that you've done something wrong and to ask for forgiveness, um, and to say that, you know, I'm sorry.

And so, um, that's been really important, whether it's between, you know, something that's gone on between Michael and myself or between me and the kids that I've, you know, maybe not handled a situation the way I should have to, to ask for their forgiveness. I think it was sister Miriam James Heidman that said that, you know, in those places of woundedness that the depth or like the woundedness, there's the healing is even more important.

How does that go? Oh, yeah, I know. Like, sometimes we despair in the rupture of relationships, but we can rest assured the repair The repair is even greater. Is always greater than the rupture. Yes. That's a great way to put it. [00:50:00] The repair is always greater than the rupture. And so, yeah, if the reality is that there's going to be struggles, then are you able to, are you able to enter into them?

Are you able to say, I'm sorry? Are you able to ask forgiveness? And so we even have our kids model this, you know, when they do something wrong to be able to admit what they've done wrong and ask, like, do you forgive me? And then for the other child to be saying like, yes, I forgive you, which happens all the time because they're, they're so generous with their love.

Um, and it's just, that's, that's been really helpful for me. Oh my God. I heard a father of the bride say once at a wedding, like, you know, there'll be, there's the three important words, three beautiful words, I love you. But then he's, he talked about in marriage, you know, sometimes the more important words in the moment are other three words, I am sorry, I love you.

And I forgive you. And I think that goes to the fact that the family and marriage is like the whole gift of it is the fact that it's, uh, it's supposed to be the model and the experience of love, [00:51:00] true love, divine love, love that lasts forever. Even when we feel most unlovable, even when we've done things wrong or messed up.

So I, I second that wholeheartedly. Can, can you apologize truly? And can you forgive truly? That's a great sign. Other, other signs I thought of were, we're not talking about, you know, happy go lucky all the time, but there should be a abiding sense of joy that radiates from a healthy, not perfect, healthy family, you know, not, not, All the time, but an abiding sense of joy and gratitude.

And I think that that comes when the family is not turned in on itself, but realizes that they're seeking that source of joy from outside themselves, whether that be, you know, other families or especially ultimately God, like we're all relying on God here, right? We are. And so, um, I think really a joyful family is a faithful family.

Yeah, I mean, let's go there. I mean, because our, our encouragement, [00:52:00] our conviction is that, you know, God is the one who is faithful. I know so many of us have had experiences that have clouded our vision of God, but when those Those vision of those things that have clouded our vision are pulled back even for a second.

We can come to see God as, as the one who loves us, even when we've turned our back from him on him time after time after time. And this is what the cross is. This is, it's not just kind of the, the symbol of Christianity or, or our leader who rose from the dead, defeated death, but someone who went to the end of death, uh, of who went to the end of love and rejection by his own people.

And yet he's still, he never turned his back. He opened himself to them and gave himself to us. Um, and this is the model of love that our marriage is supposed to find its source in and radiate outwards. It's the model. It's the source, which our family is [00:53:00] striving to thrive off on. And bring to others in the messy, imperfect way that, that we're able to.

Love that. And that was one of the things I left out of the focus inventory. It's your relationship with God. It's super important to be on the same page of like what you believe and how you express that belief. So really, really good. And yeah, no, it's such a big question of like, what are the signs of a healthy marriage and family?

So I appreciate you guys like answering it. Some of the things that I even learned from you earlier in the conversation was, um, No, like a healthy marriage, maybe just focusing on that for a second, is able to make conflict healthy. They're able to kind of navigate the difficult waters of conflict and I know there's been a lot of research by the Gottman Institute and everything on that.

If you guys are interested, Dr. John Gottman and his team have been researching this for many, many years. They have a lot of great advice and tools for you to use. Navigate that because that could be a really difficult thing, especially if you come from a broken family, learning how to make that healthy when you've only seen examples of it going horribly wrong.

Other things I, you know, you guys mentioned too, like having a healthy sex life, having like intimacy, having [00:54:00] not something that, you know, is infrequent, but something that, um, is somewhat regular and, and beautiful. Like there's intimacy. There is not something that, you know, is a cause for division or something that's demanded, but it's just like that giving of self.

To each other, you know, going to the finances to just being on the same page, right? Not to say you need to be like millionaires or be have every system figured out. But I think being on the same page, having a budget, things like that is like a really good sign of a healthy marriage and therefore a family.

Um, I know for a lot of reasons, the young people in our audience, they especially need to hear. about boundaries when it comes to family situations. So like in laws and things like that, not done out of spite or done out of, you know, hate or anything, but just making sure it's like, Hey, you know, this is the way that we are going to interact with our family.

Especially if there's a lot of drama and brokenness in one side of the family. What else though? What else would you guys add? And what one, uh, I was thinking of one with the children, like, I think a sign of a healthy family is that the children feel free to fail. Like they're not, they don't feel that they need to have this, like, You know, perfect [00:55:00] track record.

They, they feel truly this freedom that they can try new things that can fail. They have like this level of autonomy. They're not like being, you know, overshadowed by their parent. Who's like punishing them for doing things wrong. And, um, you know, just that, or maybe, you know, coddling them, like there, there's some autonomy, some freedom they're given the kind of room to grow, I think is a really important sign.

So there's so much more we can say, but I'm just curious what else you guys would add. You've done so many good ones. You've met in so many situations, you mentioned being on the same page. And so yeah, that really, that really gets to the communication being on the same page in terms of how we discipline our children in terms of yes, you know, helping them to understand where we're in the boundaries, but something that Rachel's really read about and encouraged me to think about and embraces how is our discipline helping form them as persons, not just control their behavior.

Right. And so, um, and that, that's really the loving approach to discipline, to parenting, but yeah, that, that, that's been [00:56:00] such a place of conflict, then needing to resolve that conflict and get on the same page and then trying, trying to work together. So, yeah, no, I don't, I think you really had something when you said that giving the child a safe place to fail.

I think it really is the family. The family needs to be the safe place where I can fail and where I know I'm going to be loved. That's, I mean, that's huge because if, if I feel like I have to be perfect all the time for my spouse, for my children, and then, you know, minute two of the day that doesn't happen, well, then the whole day is ruined.

Um, and, and so the family, a really sign of a healthy family is like, I know I can fail here and I'm still going to be loved for every member that's involved. And that's the motivation and the source of the strength to then continue to grow. To grow. To grow. To seek help. Yes. And yeah, and I think that to like having a sign of a healthy family is a healthy family is with other healthy families.

Um, in relationship with other healthy [00:57:00] families. It's never good if the family is completely solitary and isolated by themselves. Boundaries. Absolutely. We've been there that needs to be in place. But healthy families gravitate, people gravitate towards healthy families. Yeah. You're talking friendships too, I mean, we've experienced where like a great source of fruitfulness in our marriage is, you know, having friends together, but also, um, having good, He has good male friends, good female friends, and then we're able to, you know, in the timing that works with our marriage, be able to go out for continue to grow as men in relationship with other men, women, etc.

And then we come back energized, able to then kind of report everything that we received and back into the family. And so it isn't, yeah. Like, in some ways, you know, reality is yes, you die to yourself when you enter into marriage, but the reality is you, you're called to die to yourself every day. Um, there, there is something [00:58:00] still within marriage where you're also called to continue to grow as an individual.

Like, I'm not lost because I've married Michael. I'm actually more myself. Because I've married Michael. You shouldn't be coming close to yourself by, I mean. In that marriage, in that family. I'm not lost because I'm a mother. I've had to give up a lot of things, but actually motherhood takes nothing away from who I'm called to be.

And so I think it's being aware of those things and shifting our perspective. Because a lot of times we do think that I have to sacrifice everything if I get married. But that's not the case. I actually become more of who I'm called to be if I get married. And if I enter into being a mother. Those sacrifices, those deaths itself actually lead to a, an emergence of more of who you are.

Love that. And like you said, it makes you more of yourself, which is so beautiful. I, goodness, there's so much I want to say, but I know we're out of time. A couple of final thoughts on this. Um, I think, A healthy [00:59:00] family, one of the signs of a healthy family marriage is that, like, you play together. You pray together and you play together.

I've heard it said, like, the family that prays together and plays together stays together. I think that's so true. Um, I think there is, in the healthiest families, like I've known, there's this sense of, like, peace and joy. Like, yes, there's stress. Yes, it's there's hard times, but it's not like constant.

There's a bit of like surrender and it's like, Hey, you know, we're going to get through whatever comes our way, um, which is I think really, really beautiful. And one of the things I wanted to mention too, if anyone's listening to this and maybe you have a marriage that's not in a healthy place, maybe it is dysfunctional and you're maybe even discouraged by hearing these things.

I just want to say, like, when it comes to our bodies, when we discover any sort of dysfunction, we discover illness or, you know, brokenness within our bodies, it's just a sign that we need help. It's just a sign that we need to go to the doctor. It's a sign that we need to some level of healing, and it's the same in our marriages and our families.

And so just would encourage you all, um, the Alexander house is one of the organizations that we direct marriages to that are struggling. So look them up. The Alexander house. We'll throw the link in the show notes. Um, the [01:00:00] book, impossible marriages redeemed by Layla Miller. Who's been on this show.

Different times. It has really beautiful stories of couples who were struggling, who are in a really rough spot, who were able to, you know, by God's grace and a lot of time, that's an important point. Um, they're able to transform their marriages into something like really beautiful and happy even. And so there's a couple of things I would mention, but just don't be discouraged.

Take courage in the fact that the fact that other people have done it means that you can do it too. But guys, with that, I'm just curious if people want to connect with you, want to follow you online, how could they find you? That's all him. Yeah. The best place is to go to Instagram or Facebook at AllThingsNueva, like our last name, Villanueva.

AllThingsNueva. Yeah. At AllThingsNueva. Yeah. That's the best place. Or AllThingsNueva at gmail. com. There you go. Yeah. If you want to contact us. There you go. Yeah. And I know you guys do speaking engagements and you have your own podcasts and things like that. So if you guys want to reach out to Rachel and Michael, please do.

In closing, I want to give you guys a final word first. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, just. benefit a lot from your wisdom. And [01:01:00] I know our listeners have too. And we'll just, yeah, help thousands and thousands of people for years to come. And so just, yeah, what final encouragement advice would you give to everyone listening to close us down?

You are worthy of being loved. Yeah, I just want everyone to know that you're worthy of being loved. And you're not alone. You're not alone. You have a loving father in heaven. And Whether or not that's where you're at, like I'll be praying for you and we'll be praying for you that, uh, that the love of the father shines through.

 We plan to put on more content like this in the future, especially about what a healthy marriage and family looks like. So we all know what to aim at when we're going about building our own marriages and families. So keep an eye out for that in the future. But in the meantime, if you want more practical tips on how to build healthy relationships and a great marriage, we have a free guide for you.

The truth is that all of us want love, but if we're honest, we're not perfect. really sure how to go about building it, and to make matters worse, we're often [01:02:00] discouraged by the prevalence of divorce and fidelity, all the bad things we see in the marriages around us, and we might even fear that our own marriage will end that way, especially if we saw any of that in our parents marriage.

In this practical guide for singles and couples, we offer a roadmap for love based on marriage research, time tested couples and Christianity's wisdom, the guide gives seven really practical tips that you can use to build healthy relationships and even a divorce proof marriage. And so if you want to get the free guide, and there's a bonus talk that comes along with it that I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, just go to restoredministry.

com slash marriage. RestoredMinistry. com slash marriage or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, they're going to be so grateful that you did it.

I know I would have been grateful if someone had done this for me years ago. And in closing, always remember that you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break that cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, [01:03:00] but you can start where you are and change the ending.

The Foundation of My Life Was Poured on Sand

4 minute read.

This story was written by Emma R. at 24 years old. Her parents divorced before she was 14. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

My father suffers from psychopathic narcissism and my mother ignored the red flags, as she now says she was "blinded by love" or rather the love dumping that narcissists do to keep their victims. Our home was one filled with terror and I was physically, psychologically, and sexually abused, all in the name of discipline and religion. After 15 years of this, my mother kicked him out with the help of our priest. This help came when a priest and family member asked her if she was okay and simultaneously my mother got a call from the man whom my father was sleeping with's wife. He continued to terrorize us and convinced the whole community we were the crazy ones. We were shamed and told we were sinful, and I was made to keep silent because if I talked it was "gossip".

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

I felt worthless. I felt like it was my fault, if I had been a happier child, more helpful, more "enough" then it would not have happened. I also felt horrible like it was my fault because I had prayed for it one night when the abuse was really bad. I felt like my father didn't care and my mother was desperate for safety.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

It has left me with rocky instability. The foundation of my life was poured on sand. I am blessed enough now that the Lord has been laying rock down the whole time and now I live a life of reclaimed joy and victory. I still suffer the full effects of divorce, annulment, and abuse, for I am still a human with a body, mind, and heart, but the Lord has allowed me graces to turn that suffering towards him and sanctify it. I now work in a pro-life center helping women in abuse and am halfway through writing a book to help Catholic victims of domestic violence, hoping to spread the good news of Christ's powerful saving grace.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

You are enough, you are not at fault. You will be okay, in fact, you have the greatest capacity for glory, sanctification, and love. You cannot compare your lives to another, for this is your story and if you claim it, cling to it, and ask the Lord to tend to it, fully trusting He will do marvelous things for you if you knock on the door, He will NOT disappoint you. Allow yourself to grieve, allow yourself to enter this suffering, but don't stop there, make it resurrected.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

There is a stigma that you are going to hell if you get a divorce or annulment, that it would be better if you just "forgive and forget" and that domestic abuse does not happen in religious families. There also is this awkwardness where people don't want to ask the kids about anything for fear of "taking a side" or "gossip and detraction" but instead just kind of point the finger at the kids and say, “oh how terrible they are going to be so messed up." The three saving graces in my life were the principal of my school and my best friend’s parents who silently, without judgment or inappropriate questions that made me feel unsafe, were constantly just there for me in minute ways affirming me and making sure I knew if I needed a place to turn to they would be there unconditionally without judgment. Teens often don't feel like they are allowed to talk about it so they act out, which then makes them get "hateful" feedback, confirming what they felt all along: not enough. They need steady attention and affirmation for a long time, often just off on the sidelines as it were, so they feel as though when they are ready they can reach out for help. And they have to be the one who is ready. Even more importantly, we need books, websites, and podcasts, more like this one so they can get help and comfort from others who have been through it because often they don't want (or don't feel safe) to talk it out with someone. They still need to work through so much independently.

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#124: I Wanted My Divorced Parents Back Together | Ethan

For many of us from divorced families, we unconsciously want our parents to resolve their problems and get back together. Even if that isn’t possible due to abuse or other extreme scenarios, we can’t help but want our family to be whole. 

Today’s guest felt that desire for his parents and family. In this episode, we discuss that and more:

• How anger, overeating, and lots of activities became his coping mechanisms

• How his parents’ divorce has affected him differently in different chapters of his life

• How much should parents tell their kids about the divorce?

• What he’s done to heal and grow, and how his life is better now

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Speaker: [00:00:00] For so many of us who came from divorced families, we can't help but want at some level for our parents to resolve their problems and get back together. Now, this isn't true for everyone, right? Especially in extreme situations where the divorce happened because of abuse or violence, there definitely needed to be some sort of a split.

But even if we know it isn't good for our parents to be together in that condition, we often can't help, but just want our family to be whole. And we might even feel ashamed for that, especially if people led us to believe that the divorce is this good, happy thing. My guest today felt that desire for his parents and his family to be whole, and in this episode, he and I discussed that and more.

Like, how as a boy, he would cry himself asleep because of the pain from his family's breakdown. How anger, overeating, and lots of activities became his coping mechanisms, which thankfully, he's outgrown. He shares how his parents divorce has affected him differently in different stages of his life. And in this episode, he just walks us through those different stages.

We discuss how much should parents tell their kids, divulge to their kids about the divorce. [00:01:00] It's a tricky topic, tricky question to answer. And finally, he opens up about what he's done to heal and grow and how his life is better now. Stay with us. Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family, so you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panerelli. This is episode 124. We're so happy to hear so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard lots of great feedback. One woman said this, I found Restored a couple of months ago, and it's given me the clarity and courage to actually begin to address the unprocessed trauma of my parents divorce.

Thank you for this ministry. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Black Zone of Films. In a recent survey by [00:02:00] Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of Millennials said video is their top content choice. And that's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that?

Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know you need to create video content, but there's just so many barriers to actually doing it. You don't know how to do it. You don't have the time to learn it. Um, you don't know who to hire, who's trustworthy, and it kind of leaves you feeling overwhelmed to the point where you just go back to what you know, to what's comfortable.

But that's where Blackstone films can help you. They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel good. They can create things like trailers, uh, promo videos and commercials, social media videos, documentaries, fundraising videos, uh, and courses. We actually produced two video courses with them.

We had an excellent experience. So, whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about helping you not just create video content, but, uh, produce content. clear win, a clear result for your business or your ministry, such as, you know, fundraising for your [00:03:00] ministry, uh, selling a course, getting leads for your business, getting students to sign up for your school, promoting your event.

And so much more. Blackstone has reached millions of people around the globe, uh, with their videos and they can help you too. And so to view their past projects and the services that they offer, uh, just go to their website, blackstonefilms. co not. com again, blackstonefilms. co or just click on the link in the shout outs.

My guest today is Ethan. Like so many of us, he is a child of divorced parents. His hope for you listening is that you know that there is hope and beauty that can rise from the ashes. He graduated from Lancaster Bible College with a degree in biblical studies and currently lives in Nashville, Tennessee, where he performs as a touring drummer.

His goal in life is to love God and others and to be loved by God and others and to make the world a better place. He loves meeting new people and hearing their stories. Without waiting any longer, here's our chat. Ethan, so good to have you on the show, man.

Speaker 2: Thanks, Joey. I'm really [00:04:00] happy to be here.

Speaker: I'm excited to dive into your story.

And as we usually do, just like go head first into it. How old were you when your parents separated and divorced?

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, when my parents separated, I was about eight years old. I was in third grade. And so they separated then. Um, and I forget when at some point later, they divorced, but I mean, effectively, it felt like they kind of divorced when I was that old.

Speaker: No, it totally makes sense. And, uh, yeah, it is kind of, there's kind of a gray area there, you know, I think often one or the other kind of leaves more of an impact depending on the story. So that totally makes sense to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, uh, what happened, what led up to it? What, what happened when it all went down?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm totally happy to share. And, uh, just as a, uh, I guess a disclaimer to the audience, like I definitely will be talking about some really difficult, um, and hard things, obviously in my story, but I also just want to say that I'm going to talk about a lot of things that have brought me. You know, joy and some peace from this.

So we're going to get to the bottom and we're going to get to the top. So just [00:05:00] uh, hang on for the ride here But uh, yeah, so when my parents separated I remember where we were We all had gathered in the dining room table and mom and dad were like, hey, we need to tell you something or Getting separated and so immediately, like, you know, we all kind of, I ran away out of the room crying and immediately, like, you know, all my siblings and I were sitting upstairs and my first thought was, we have to get them back together.

We have to get them back together. And I just, you know, didn't realize at the time that that's not something you can do as an eight year old. And so, yeah, that was, that was a really pivotal moment in my life. But later that day, I just went over to a friend's house, you know, just cause I think that was my gut reaction was to go be with other people.

So yeah, that's, uh, that's what it looked like when it started.

Speaker: Okay, I know that makes so much sense. And that, man, what I like kind of pure and innocent desire of like, man, I want my family to be whole. I want my parents to kind of work through this. And I think the more people I've talked to, you know, who come from broken families, like even if they see, you know, especially in some [00:06:00] extreme situations, the value of like, okay, there, it was dangerous or there was abuse or whatever we had to, there had to be some sort of a split.

There is always, I think that desire of like, man, wouldn't it be so good if my parents could just work through this stuff and we can have like a whole family. And I remember with my siblings and I don't even know what happened, but it was one night where things were kind of tense at home. This was like, you know, kind of years after the divorce.

And there was some arguing and some like, you know, even crying, I think. And I remember someone just saying like, and all I've really wanted was just like for our family to be whole. And for some reason that just like struck a nerve in me. And I was like, yeah.

Speaker 2: Hmm.

Speaker: Like that's what I want to. So I think that's a desire.

So many of us feel.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker: I am. No, I wanted to go deeper into your story too. I'm curious, you know, in the months and years that followed and everything leading up to how did that all affect you?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. And I feel like there's so many different ways to tackle that because, you know, I'm sure there's, you know, how it affected me in elementary school, middle school, high school, college and beyond.

Yeah, I just, I [00:07:00] mean, some immediate ways I think that it affected me. I'll kind of start there and then go forward a little bit. So when I was in elementary school, you know, what that looked like for me was I had always been relatively carefree. Like I'd never really gone through anything that hard in life up to that point.

And so, you know, crying myself to sleep became just like a very frequent, like very normal thing. Even though it wasn't normal. Um, I started experiencing some bullying at school, you know, just different things like that. Yeah. Um, you know, when frequently like eat a lot of seconds to just kind of like try to mask my feelings and like feel a little bit better as a little kid.

Um, so that's how it affected me in the short term. And then once I got to middle school, really, we kind of hit a moment where I realized that, Hey, you know, something that helps me not feel bad is doing things and just really being involved in a lot of activities. And so. I mean, anything that I could possibly do, I did Boy Scouts, youth groups, sports band instruments was just doing [00:08:00] all of it.

And so that's kind of how it affected me more so in elementary and middle school. And then I think at home things change too, you know, cause obviously you're missing seeing the way we had our schedule was we'd see our dad every other weekend. So, you know, definitely missed seeing him as much. You know, and things were just different to like at my mom's house, where we spent, you know, the school weeks, just there's kind of that lack of, Oh, like, I guess we have all have to do some more tours now.

And there's, you know, more conflict just between siblings and stuff. So, you know, it was something we were all trying to figure out together. And so I think it definitely got more difficult, but those are some of the immediate impacts.

Speaker: No, that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, man, what a difficult thing for a kid to go through.

You know, like looking back, we can like summarize that. Kind of easily effortlessly almost, um, but my goodness, when you're in the midst of it, that is heavy stuff.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And just, I think one of the, the biggest moments that stands out for me. Um, so I really, you know, did have a tough time through like the rest of elementary school and [00:09:00] it kind of came to a head when I was in sixth grade and I, you know, I'd frequently been crying myself to sleep and there was this one night where I was just overwhelmed with tears.

And, uh, for me personally, like I, at that point did believe in God and had that relationship, uh, with him. And so for me, it was on one hand, like I've been raised to believe that God is good and all of this stuff. But on the other hand, my whole world has fallen apart. And so here I am at eight years old, like trying to reconcile these two things.

Like, all right, what's really true. And so at that point in my life, most nights I would just go to bed and I'd pray like, God, just, you know, get my parents back together. Just. Help me out. Like if you're real, just show up. And so, you know, for four years, for three, three years, I didn't hear anything. Like not a word.

It just felt like I was calling somebody on the phone and nobody was answering the other end. And then I had this really, really interesting, like very special moment in my life where I was on my bed one night. In sixth grade, and I was just [00:10:00] crying, like really distraught and unlike any other time in my life, I just felt the presence of God come down on me and he said, Ethan, I have always been here for you, Ethan, I always will be here for you.

And I have a plan for your life. And that was the moment that changed everything for me, because beyond a shadow of a doubt, I knew I was like, all right, like God is real and that's who I'm going to follow and give my life to. And so I know that that's not everybody's story. And, you know, a lot of Christians may not have even had the moment like that.

But the reason I share that is that was just a really big personal turning point for me of, okay, like the worst thing possible could have happened to me did happen. And still somehow, you know, the Lord has showed up and has brought like this beautiful moment out of tragedy.

Speaker: Beautiful. Just sharing that.

And I can totally relate, you know, My story is a little bit different. It was really through meeting friends of mine who were just really like joyful people and I was miserable. Like I was so miserable. I was, you know, hooked on porn and I was just [00:11:00] struggling in a lot of different ways with like emotions, like anger and loneliness, depression, anxiety, like all those things.

And I meet these people who are just like, they're peaceful. They're joyful. Like they're happy people. They're not fake. They're real too. And I was like, like, what in the world? Do you have like whatever that is, like I want it. And so that's really what led me to, to kind of go deeper with faith and build a relationship with God.

But yeah, no, I love hearing that story. And that's like, what a grace, what a gift to like, have that moment.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So that really, you know, that gave me such a strong foundation, I think, cause I, we all know that middle school can be full of ups and downs, but for me, my mom said this thing that I've always thought was really beautiful.

She said, you know, feeling grief. Is like one end of the pendulum and the further that you've swung on that side, the further you can really feel joy on the other side. And I really have seen that ring true in my life. You know, like if I could change the divorce, obviously I would, but, you know, I see that.

Because I've had to deal with such grief at such a young age, like that really has just given me just [00:12:00] an appreciation for the beauty of the things in ordinary moments, you know, like if I'm outside and we're all loading a moving truck, maybe other people would be like, Oh, this, like, I'm tired. This is hot.

This is horrible. And I'm like, guys, The sun is shining like it's 60 degrees. Like this is amazing, you know? And so I just think that's a really great thing, you know, because life is really, really difficult, like excruciating at times, but it also really does have this capacity just to be beautiful. Um, and so I see that as, you know, one of the good things that came out of that experience.

Speaker: 100%. One of the things I've noticed with people like us too is kind of based on that contrast principle that you just articulated so well, um, we, we have like more capacity for empathy I've noticed. And I, I would bet this is true for most people who've been through any sort of trauma, you know, cause I, I see divorce and family falling apart as a trauma.

And that's what the studies say too. And the stories and all that, as you know, but yeah, it seems like it kind of opens a part of your heart that maybe wouldn't have otherwise been open for other people who are also suffering. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. [00:13:00] And I think the last thing I want to say, cause uh, I'm trying to keep, you know, our audience in mind here, people who have also like their parents have gone through divorce.

Um, our situation was a little bit unique just in the sense that we didn't know why our parents got divorced and they, they never told us. So, you know, I'm very, very grateful that they never brought us in the middle of anything. You know, there was never any like shouting or screaming matches that we witnessed.

You know, but there was just kind of this really weird void. So I know that everybody's story is unique, but I just kind of wanted to provide that little context there.

Speaker: Yeah, that's helpful. Let's stay there for a second. What's your advice to a parent listening right now? Like they're going through a divorce and maybe they were divorced and maybe they're not sure how much they should share with their kids.

I'm curious, kind of your opinion on, you know, what, what should they say? Easy question.

Speaker 2: Yeah. If you're, if you're a parent going through that, I just want to let you know. Okay. That as a child of a situation like that, that, you know, my heart goes out to you. And I know that I'm sure there's a [00:14:00] lot of complex factors that have led to, you know, your present circumstances.

And so I think when you're talking with kids, you know, it's totally different ballgame when you're talking with elementary school kids versus somebody in middle school versus somebody in high school. But I think, you know, the best thing you can do, and I feel like the best thing my parents did was they just.

Like individually, you know, they didn't have the husband, wife thing figured out, but the parent thing, like they had that down there, their focus was always, Hey, how can we both be really present and involved in love and listen to our kids through this process? And so, yeah, I think when it comes to the details of the divorce, you know, like that's not something that they need to know at a young age, you know, when they're older, it definitely is important to unpack that.

I think at some point, but yeah, I think it's, you know, when, if you're focusing on really being a great parent and just keeping conflict to a minimum, like that really does have positive dividends for your kids. It really does help them through that process.

Speaker: Good advice. And I would echo what you said. And I kind of go to [00:15:00] the other end of the spectrum too.

I've seen situations where parents overshare and you were alluding to this too. And it really causes a lot of damage, you know, that whether they're at war with each other and they're trying to, you know, whether it's conscious or not, they're trying to maybe put down the other spouse or make them look bad.

So they kind of win the kid to their side, or, you know, it's just like, they feel like the kids deserve to know. I think there is a possibility of oversharing to where it becomes like this big burden that the children then carry around. I've seen that in many situations. And so I think there is a middle ground, you know, I think on one end leaving, not saying anything, you know, it's probably super confusing to a kid.

Cause like. Why in the world is this happening? On the other hand, caring too much can be kind of damaging too. So I think the, your advice on making it kind of age appropriate and not needing to like divulge all the sins and secrets about kind of what went down, I think is, is really good. And I've heard people say, you know, when you're talking to your kids about sex too, like it's kind of similar, like you want to give [00:16:00] them just enough information to kind of satisfy their curiosity, but not more.

And then when they get older and they have more questions and they need to know more information, you give them kind of more. So you're kind of like unveiling, kind of peeling back the layers a little bit of a time. And I think that's really good advice when it comes to, uh, this whole divorce topic as well.

I'm sure there's a lot more we can say there, but I'm curious to kind of keep going through the different chapters of your story. And I love that you broke it down that way. Cause I think it's so true that it, um, the struggles, the trauma, like kind of surfaces comes out in different ways as we kind of progress through life.

So yeah, tell us more.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll just kind of skip ahead on to high school. So, or I guess, yeah, middle school and high school. So I think one thing, and again, you learn a lot, it's just, it's wow. You really do learn so much at different stages because I can look back now at 27 years old on middle school and high school and, College and say, oh, that's when this was happening or that's when I was experiencing that.

But at the time I didn't have language for that. I didn't know what that was. I just kind of knew how I felt. So [00:17:00] a lot of times the way that I felt during that season of my life was that All of my feelings were just wrapped up together just like and I couldn't even name them, you know There was anger in there.

There was depression in there There was sadness and it just felt like this swirling tornado that I could not quell just this storm inside me And so It was really difficult for me to be alone. It was really difficult for me to do anything. Like I remember, you know, even up into high school, like if I, everybody was out of the house and I was just had a day off school or something, like if I was at the home alone, like it would lead me, it would leave me in tears, like inevitably, just cause I could physically not stand like being alone with my emotions.

And so. You know, the way I coped with that was by doing a lot of activities, but really spending a lot of time with friends. I found that, you know, consistently the thing that always helped me feel better was just having like other people I could be around, you know, just to joke around and do fun stuff with, but also on occasion, just really be honest about how I was feeling.

[00:18:00] And that's one thing I'm super proud of that, you know, I was able to do and that I was able to have friends like that. And so I think at any age, you know, if you're older than me or younger than me, like that's always just a really great thing is to just have, you know, you don't need a lot of people, but if you just have a couple of people who you really, really trust, just to spend time with them and to share what's really going on.

And then I think the other biggest thing for me because of that, you know, it just felt like there was never any peace inside, but For whatever reason, I had originally started playing drums as a kid, and I said, Mom, I want to play trumpet. And she said, No, you need to learn rhythm first. And so that's actually like why I'm still a drummer today, which is very funny.

But I remember the first time like I sat behind a drum set, I was just it was electric. It was so much fun. And then I got a drum set for my birthday in seventh grade and set it up in the basement. And I would pop in the Foo Fighters greatest hits, which is That is a great record. And when I would play along to that, I mean, Joey, it just felt like everything in my world was right.

It just felt like all of my [00:19:00] spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical chaos, just like quieted down. And it felt like all of that came together just for like this really beautiful, beautiful piece. And so honestly, like, I think that was the first time in my life where I just really was like, Like I feel okay.

And that was really significant for me, you know, and as an older adult, I can be like, Oh yeah, well, you know, you're physically moving your body and I can like try to explain all this stuff, but just at a very like human instinctual level, like that was just such a beautiful gift that I was able to receive.

And honestly, like. That aside from my faith and my friends and my family, like that has been the biggest influence in my life that has really helped me just make sense of it all. Cause you know, I think we all need something like that. And you know, whether that's a sport, whether that's art, whether that's, you know, insert your passion here, like that space is really sacred.

And I think it's a good thing to have. Um, cause when you can feel okay, you know, or you can feel, I guess, normal, [00:20:00] Wow, that's not the right word I'm looking for. When you can get to a baseline level of like peace, I think that's a really good thing because then you're able to bring that into other spaces in your life and offer that to other people.

Speaker: So good. No, I love all of that. And what I hear you saying too is I've heard, um, some psychologists talk about like our emotions on a scale, like our basic emotions on a scale where you have like hyper arousal and hypo arousal. And the way it was explained to me Was, you know, we're kind of meant to be at, if you think of a scale of one to 10 at the bottom of that scale is called hypoarousal where you're totally depressed, like kind of lifeless.

Um, at the top of the scale is called hyperarousal. That's where you're completely anxious. Like you're feeling terror essentially. And we'll kind of go up and down that scale throughout our life. Um, but we want to be like in the five or six range where we have peace, but we may have a little bit of an excitement, uh, like a healthy stress or, you know, a little bit of like a, You know, pop intercept sort of thing.

And, um, that sounds like that's what you experienced. You were kind of like up and down on that scale. And then finally there was something that kind [00:21:00] of helped you stay in that equilibrium, which makes so much sense. And I had a similar experience to kind of like you were saying when I was surrounding myself with like these other friends who were just living like really happy, healthy lives compared with like the sports buddies who I was hanging around with who just weren't.

There was just something about that that was contagious to me. And I was like, okay, now, you know, I certainly didn't earn or get to like emotional mastery overnight by any means, like it was still messy for me. But in time I noticed myself kind of leveling out and better able to, you know, kind of regulate as I know it's kind of a psych term, but it's like, basically, how do you go from being up or down on that scale to getting back to the middle?

As quickly as you can. And so that's what I hear you saying. Anything you would add to that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a great segue because on the scale of kind of hypo arousal versus hyper arousal. Honestly, I live probably most of my life at like a seven or eight, like the whole way through like high school and college, just.

Flying just doing as much as I could just like, you know, and some of that was really good, [00:22:00] just like beautiful ambitions to like, want to just really make the most of life. But there definitely was also a dynamic of trying to kind of outrun the pain. And I want to be clear that like, that's something that, you know, I still struggle with today.

And like, you know, it was very prevalent in my life, probably right up until about COVID and even after that. But the first time I realized it and became conscious of it, I was working at this summer camp for the second year in a row. And I didn't have time. I only could work there for one week. Um, and I was so excited.

And when I went back, I was just exhausted the whole week. Like I was just tired. It wasn't the same. And I remember one of these camp counselors sharing a story from when they were a kid about like wanting to run away. And my first thought was like, you know, that sounds pretty nice. Like no stress, no responsibilities.

And I was like, Oh my gosh, I was like, man, I need to I need to rest. And in that moment, I became consciously aware as like going into my junior of high school, like, Oh, I'm trying to outrun this thing. Like I'm trying to outrun the pain that I feel. And that was the first time that I really became aware of it.

And so, you know, still [00:23:00] obviously was going a mile a minute, but like tried to like take a couple of things off that I like was over committed to. Um, I think that's a word that accurately describe my life a lot during that time. And so, yeah, I kind of became aware of that then. And then I'm sure there's other stuff in high school that I'm forgetting, but really that kind of followed me into college.

You know, I went to a Bible college, which was a really good experience for me. And then my sophomore year, we took this class called student and family counseling, uh, which is basically, you know, you're trying to learn the basics of how to Help people who are going through tough things. And so the first assignment was right about the toughest thing that you've ever been through.

And I was like, Oh, okay, well, that's easy. I've already worked through that. I'm past that. You know, this is great. And then I wrote about my parents divorce and realized, in fact, I was not past it and I had a lot to work through there. And so. For anybody who's in that, that college space, I think the biggest thing I realized was that for me personally, the way we all process negative emotional differently, but instead of me becoming angry and directing that outwards [00:24:00] at my parents or other people, my default mode was to always turn that inward of like, Oh, what's wrong with me?

Or why do I feel this way? And so it kind of manifested as depression for me a lot growing up. So in college, I realized, Oh, no, like there's actually a lot of anger here. And so I really, for the first time began to look that in the face and like, how do I process, how do I express this, you know, to my parents?

And that led to some pretty, pretty raw moments for me. And so, you know, I want to be honest and say to the people that are struggling in that time of life, that it's okay. Like. I always tell people life after high school, like, you know, it will be worse than you could ever imagine, but it will also be like way better than you could ever imagine.

And there was nights where, you know, I'd be screaming in my car, just God and just praying and just so angry, you know, and then also there would be these moments of, you know, healing and just connection with others. And so I want to be honest with that, that like, you know, there is layers to this thing.

And I know psychologists and therapists will tell you that [00:25:00] it's, you have to kind of reprocess it at each age. Um, but that was certainly my experience in that college, college era. Wow.

Speaker: No, that's deep and really good. I think for anyone, like you said, in that stage of life right now, and I can totally relate to the anger.

I can relate to entering new chapters in life and. Different brokenness in me, like surfacing again, different parts of me kind of coming out that, you know, maybe were somewhat dormant in the past. And, uh, I remember, yeah, similar to you, like being in college. And I remember, uh, the girl I was dating at the time, great girl, you know, I just had this experience of just feeling like super broken.

That was like the best language I could put to it. Like I felt like kind of fragmented, like, yeah. So, you know, some form of depression, I guess, and just overall just feeling, yeah, broken. And, you know, I didn't, I knew I wasn't supposed to like, take it to her. Um, and so eventually similar to what you were describing, I was able to get therapy on campus and that was helpful and try to just make sense of the emotions and what I had been through in the past and not just like what I had been through in the past, but how it was affecting me today.

And, and that's 1 thing I think a [00:26:00] lot of us overlook is we think that the past is like in the past, but sometimes as 1 of my guests said, the past lives in the present. And that's really like the, one of the earmarks, one of the signs of trauma is that we're carrying that stuff with us. Like our brains almost can't differentiate often that what had happened in the past wasn't kind of brought to closure.

And therefore we are living our life as if we're in the midst of it right now. And that's a really difficult thing to carry with you.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think a therapist or somebody said to me one time that you're every age that you've ever been. And I was like, Oh man. You know, because you kind of, there's those parts of you that you still, you know, feel those things and you can depend if you haven't resolved them to process things like that.

And so, you know, while I started that work in college, I just did it for one semester, I kind of just dipped my toes in and didn't really, you know, fully dive in, which was fine, like, Maybe I just wasn't ready at that point. And so after college, I'd moved down to Atlanta, Georgia and was doing a new job, was doing a ton of music stuff, was like going to a new church [00:27:00] and kind of in a lot of the same way, like really lived in that over functioning mentality, but just on a, in a new place on an even bigger capacity and, and, you know, spread even more thin.

And it wasn't really until COVID hit that. It was the week before COVID. I went into a therapist's office because there was somebody that I was making no money my first year out of college. And, uh, they had like a therapist who would meet with you for a discounted rate because they finished all their schooling, but like they're getting their hours to get licensed.

And so I could actually afford it, which was awesome. And I got super blessed, uh, to actually be paired with like one of the best therapists of all time. And I'm very, very grateful for them. And, uh, yeah, I just walked in and I was like, you know, I've had one of the best years of my life. Like I've overcome a lot of challenges by moving to this new city, but something's off.

Like I know that something's off deep inside me and I just can't figure out why. And then, um, that really unlocked a process. And because of COVID and the slow down that I just had this time in my life to actually do the work and really [00:28:00] dig in. And so honestly, yeah, one of the biggest things that has helped me in my journey is therapy.

So I did that for three and a half years and I could, man, I really, I could probably write a whole book on everything that I've learned. But it really does take six to nine months of doing therapy on a weekly or bi weekly basis to really start seeing, um, and understanding some of the lessons that you've learned.

And I think this analogy might help some people who are, if you're weary of therapy, like I totally get it. You know, there's a lot of people who are, um, so I ran track in high school. And not because I wanted to, it's just because we didn't have a baseball team one year. And I was like, Oh, what the heck?

You got to do something. And so the first day of practice, our coach is like, you don't know how to run. And I was like, what are you talking about? I've been running my whole life. Who do you think you are? And then he proceeded to break down the mechanics of running, how, you know, you, in order to have the fastest time, you really have to make sure you're lifting your knee.

Fully extending your leg, like driving through, like kicking your feet. And then I realized, Oh, I was very wrong. There is a right way in a wrong way to run. [00:29:00] And the way I try to explain therapy to people is, you know, you might say, of course, I know how to feel my feelings. Like I've been me my whole life.

But until somebody really breaks it down for you and says, Hey, this is how you can sit with a negative emotion. And this is how you can name it and process it and give it space to be felt. You know, like you just don't know how to do that. And so for me, over a very long period of time, like this was not an overnight thing, slowly week by week, day by day, I learned what it was to find like one little feeling or one little negative thing that I can kind of pull out of that tornado.

And just sit with and like, take the 90 seconds or so to really feel that emotion and then start to process it. And it was just awesome, man. Like, I think for the first time in my life, I was really able to start taking some of those bigger chunks and move things out of this, like, bucket of unawareness, just all this stuff I was struggling with that I didn't even know about.

I moved it into the awareness of like, okay, this maybe is why I'm feeling this way and why I'm having these issues. And then slowly, as I was ready at a much slower pace than I wanted [00:30:00] to, because I was like, come on, why aren't we done with this yet? You know, just bit by bit, I was really able to process those, um, and get to a point where I really started to feel, you know, emotionally healthy.

Um, and I'd say like kind of where I was at the end of that, you know, fully transparent, like you will still have days where you're depressed. You will still have a lot of ordinary days and you'll still have some really good days. But I think I'm at a point now where when I'm healthy, I can really process my emotions in the moment or like day by day.

And so instead of just all of this backlog of feelings continuing to pile up and just kind of overwhelm me all at once, like a tidal wave crashing down, I can kind of take it like smaller wave by smaller wave, which is a much better way to live. And probably one of the biggest concepts I took away from therapy was, you know, the window of tolerance where they talk about, you know, trying to like regulate yourself where, you know, sometimes Like you just have this much energy to be able to feel things.

And so you want to stay inside that zone and you know, you can let negative stuff into the stuff to the degree that you can handle it. And then if you can't handle it, [00:31:00] you know, you just take a step back and be like, Hey, that's not where I'm at today. But I think overall therapy has helped me stay.

Increase my window of tolerance and just stay a little bit more regulated on a day to day basis.

Speaker: No, and that, that's like a transformation in itself, you know, from maybe being controlled by your emotions, or maybe your emotions drive you to act in a certain way that's like harmful to you to them being able to say, Nope, my emotions are not the boss.

Like I'm in control. But I'm not going to disregard them. I'm going to give them the space that they need. There's a reason they're there. They deserve some validation, some acknowledgement, but again, they're not going to be the boss of me. They're not going to control me. So what a good and like healthy way to process it all.

And I, um, that's so fascinating. You mentioned like unawareness to awareness. Cause we, we've noticed this trend in the interviews we've done on this podcast, that a lot of people kind of have that shift. Kind of on a meta like, um, macro level when they're looking at kind of the brokenness in their life that they might like you and I experienced understand that, man, yeah, I'm dealing with all these emotional problems, like anxiety, depression, loneliness.

[00:32:00] I maybe I'm acting out, you know, struggling with this, whatever anger, you know, reacting on anger or looking at porn or whatever other unhealthy behavior. But they so often don't have like a full awareness around it or they don't trace it back to its origin. Like how did this start? Where did this come from?

What's the root of it? Not just like the symptom. And then when they go through that period of moving from like unawareness to awareness, there's like this kind of eye opening this aha moment. Like when people say where it's like, okay, this is making more sense. Like it can connect the dots. I can understand kind of why you know, I do this, why I do that.

Um, but then they need tools kind of like you were saying to be able to deal with it all. And that sounds like what therapy gave you, which is so, so beautiful. And I think at that point, you know, you're able to then kind of move into this final stage of like, okay, so again, you're going from unawareness to awareness, then from the awareness, you kind of understand the things and you need to go into this like processing or healing stage.

And then it seems like the final stage there is like some form of freedom, not perfection, not like utopia that's not real, but some form of like freedom where it's not [00:33:00] controlling you anymore. So you somewhat described that model, which is really interesting. And again, that's not something we made up. It was just like something that popped up at us after doing like dozens of these stories, which I thought was.

Super, super interesting. One last point and then I'd love to hear if you have any thoughts on this is, um, how young, um, the Swiss psychologist, I think it was not endorsing everything he said, but he had this really interesting quote that he said until kind of talking about awareness and unawareness, he said, until you make like the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate.

So I think there is truly this kind of unconscious part of us that's really controlling our behavior and that until we go through the process that you described of like taking it out of the unawareness into the awareness from the subconscious into the conscious, that's when a lot of freedom can be found.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And that certainly is a process because when you're a kid, it's I feel bad. I always feel bad. I want to stop feeling bad. What makes me stop feeling bad? Insert anything that makes you stop feeling bad, whether it's good or a bad habit. [00:34:00] So yeah, and those things that you're unaware of, you know, those can carry on into your early twenties.

And if that's you, or if you're like way older than that, like, Dude, don't feel bad for that for a second. Like I want you to celebrate the fact that you may be for the first time coming aware of, Hey, there's some things weighing me down that maybe I don't even know about. Cause I think the biggest thing is really celebrating those little steps because it's truly not about arriving.

To a place of like, you know, happiness or all of these things. It's just every single day. You really got to celebrate those moments where you gain a little bit of healing in one area or a little bit of perspective in another. Yeah. And I just think everything you said with that quote is so true. Yeah.

Cause the things that we don't know. Do still affect us whether we're aware of them or not, but, you know, even moving those things into your awareness, like that's great. And, you know, if you don't have the ability to like figure all that out today, that's okay. And the second thing that was coming to me there.

[00:35:00] So that's, I think, really where I started, like somewhere near the end of my therapy, we kind of dived into like negative core beliefs. And I really became aware of some of those for the first time, like things that I subconsciously believed about myself. That were really affecting the way that I lived and to even just be able to name those was like, Oh my gosh, you know, sometimes I think for me, like, I'm not going to remember all of them, but like, I think one of the biggest ones was like, I have to do this all by myself or, you know, like it's all up to me.

And, you know, that's such an American thing that we celebrate of, yeah, go get a move to a new city, start a new job, find a band, like, look at you go pick yourself up by your own bootstraps, but that's just not how the world works. And there is some good virtue, you know, to being somebody who's courageous and willing to try and do things.

But I want to be transparent and just say that there's also a really shadow side to that of just believing that it's all up to you. And that if you, you know, don't figure it out, like. Your life [00:36:00] is going to be a waste or it's all going to go wrong. And so that's definitely something that at once I heard that, I was like, Oh my gosh, I could look back over all of my life and say like, yeah, I was just really driven by this, this fear and just this need to kind of, you know, move forward at all costs.

And so, yeah, and. I think towards the end of my therapy journey, you know, I had done a lot of good work. I was one of my biggest dreams. I don't think I mentioned it yet was always to be a touring drummer. That was just this big, like thing I wanted to do. And I had finally gotten a chance to do it. You know, I had toured all these States and I was just like, you know, circumstantially it was on top of the world.

But right after I got back from that, I remember sitting in my therapist's office and just telling her it feels like, um, if there's a Canyon, right. It feels like somebody put three steps on one end of the canyon and said, all right, go jump to the other side. It felt like I had just, or it felt like I had built these steps and I was running as fast as I could and jumping and just could not like overcome, you know, these negative feelings.

And [00:37:00] I really, you know, just hit this moment of kind of hopelessness. And I share that just to be honest that, you know, like, it's not like this super linear thing where you're just going to feel, you know, totally great at the end. And it's like, Hooray. You know, there's, it's truly like to the left, to the right, back, forward, up, down, and you know, that was a real moment that I experienced, but on flip side of that, you know, there's also some other really beautiful moments of just ordinary things.

Like in that year, you know, I had a chance to like go and tour and play drums, uh, which you would have thought, Oh, the best day you spent that year was traveling to this really cool place to play this awesome show. And actually my favorite day that year was getting to go home with my family. Go pick apples at an apple orchard and sit on the couch and just watch some football, you know?

And so I, I want to share that because I think, you know, it's easy in our society to believe that pursuing your dreams and building your best life is the path to healing and wholeness. And I think what's beautiful is [00:38:00] that, you know, the things that can really help give us a meaningful, purposeful, whole life are a lot of the things that are just available to all of us.

And I think that's so beautiful. Things like breathing, things like taking a walk outside, things about just like sharing a meal or a cup of coffee with a friend. You know, we don't need to master ourselves or become like the best in the world at something to be okay And I just I think there's such a beauty in that and so I know that's probably not everybody's default response to you know The things they've gone through but i'm sure that there's somebody out there who you know Just is kind of that that was their response was I have to do everything and so to that person I just want to take a moment to say that you can rest that you're worthy You Of that rest.

And there is a peace and there's a hope available to you and that you don't have to strive to find your worthiness. Your worthiness and value has already been bestowed upon you because of who you are, and there are people who can [00:39:00] celebrate that and really love you and lift you up for who you are, where you are beautiful.

Speaker: And I think you'd find this. What I've learned is that there's so many of us actually who do struggle with what you said of. Kind of this fierce independence and feeling like, man, it's all on our shoulders. And if we alter it all, we're going to, you know, have, it's going to have serious consequences. So that's a freeing and thank you for saying that there's so much more in your story.

I want to get into, um, but I do want to shift to relationships. So I'm curious kind of, yeah. How did you see your parents divorce, everything that happened in your family, affect your relationships, especially your dating relationships?

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. So for me, I had one serious relationship.

So my senior year of high school, I dated a girl I was friends with, and we dated for nine months and just had a really great relationship, you know, and then kind of at the end of high school, I just realized that, you know, I was going on to college and different things. And so I was the one who actually broke up with her.

And I felt horrible about that. I felt devastated, you know, cause it wasn't like [00:40:00] there was anything wrong with her. I just knew that I wasn't ready to get married because I was not trying to get married at 18, 19 or 20. And based off of what I had been taught, you know, that was kind of the purpose of dating was like just to get married.

And so that really wrecked me. And I think, you know, kind of an unconscious agreement. That I made with myself was, well, I'm not going to date anybody until the next person I date is the person I'm going to marry, which is a dumb agreement to make with yourself. But I think that I was just so hurt by that.

And I didn't want to cause that pain to somebody else. You know, that, that was kind of unconsciously what was going on for me. And so when I got to college, you know, I had tons of opportunities, you know, to like, I was just around so many great people and I definitely could have, you know, gone on dates, but I think half jokingly, half serious.

I was like, well, I don't want to get married. I don't want to get married young. You know, I gotta, I gotta play drums in a band. And that was kind of my cop out funny response. But you know, by the time I was 21 and my third year of college, I was like, Oh man, this is a really deep [00:41:00] desire that I have. And so to be honest, like I've gone, you know, on a lot of dates, but I haven't really been in a serious relationship since that time, which, so I'm definitely still working through that.

And I feel like I'm just now kind of getting to a point where I'm ready. To jump into, I guess, kind of that. And so I think that is probably one of the negative ways that I don't know, I guess like the divorce, but also like, you know, I'm sure that has to do with me personally. But like, I think I just one of my regrets is not having been more willing to do that.

Sooner, because I think I let fear kind of have a little bit more control there than it needed to. So that's the honest version.

Speaker: Yeah, no, thanks for the honest version. That's what I love to hear. And yeah, man, the fear held me back so long and so much in my relationships and gosh, I held off from dating for a while because I was just really afraid, if I'm honest.

Maybe I would have said it was something different, but I was just like, I felt kind of clueless and incompetent when it came to love [00:42:00] relationships, dating, like I thought in marriage, you know, I thought like other people knew what they were doing and I just. Did not. And it just brought a lot of anxiety into my life, a lot of fear.

So anyway, I can really relate. And the whole breakup component too, I think they're harder for people like us. Not to say that breakups don't suck whenever you go through them, but yeah, I I've seen what, what I've seen is like, it can almost feel like a mini divorce. And obviously it's not a breakup is actually a good thing in many ways.

Cause it's like, well, I've decided that I'm not going to spend the rest of my life with this person, but it's really. Painful to go through. And so, yeah, I, I've seen that. I think I know I've even felt that too. It was like, if I were to break up with this person, it's like abandoning them. And I just like have such a strong instinct to me to never abandon anyone because of what I went through.

And that could really, that could cause some damage, especially if it's a relationship or a time in your life when, you know, it's not going to work out like you described. So I think, yeah, there's a lot to navigate there when it comes to relationships and breakups.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And again, you know, that's not something that you realize in the moment because in [00:43:00] the moment, it's like, I know this isn't a divorce.

I know this is just a breakup, but I think your body feels like it's a divorce. And it's like, no, but last time it wasn't my fault, but this time it is my fault. And I think that's the subconscious thing. And that's why, you know, it can be so powerful. And so, yeah, I just don't think I was even aware of all that.

But then ironically, recently, uh, Me and that girlfriend connected a couple years ago, just caught up randomly on the phone, just totally platonic, just as friends. And, uh, I was just like, Oh, she's fine. I'm fine. Like, you know, I'm not a bad person. And I was like, I realized in that moment, I was like, I have been carrying this shame for years and I had like no reason to be carrying that, you know?

And so, yeah,

Speaker: No, that's beautiful. I, similar with me, like the girls I dated awesome girls. I'm just didn't work out for some reason, uh, whatever reason. And, uh, now they're doing great. They seem like they're doing great in life and I'm super happy for them. And so anyway, I can totally relate with you. And I think there, there's a lot of peace [00:44:00] that can come from that.

Cause we, yeah, I think it is natural when you love someone to feel a level of responsibility toward them. Like you, you want the best for them. And that's a good thing. And I don't think like, just because you break up with them, it's like automatically stopping as if you can cut out a part of your heart and never feel anything like, like you care deeply for them.

And so you, you want the best for them. So I totally can see the different layers to what you're saying there. So thanks for sharing all that. And, uh, I'm sure there's so much more we could say on the relationship topic. I did want to shift over to, when it comes to healing, you already mentioned a ton of things that have helped you heal.

I'm curious if there's anything else maybe that we haven't talked about so far that was really instrumental in helping you to, to heal and to cope with everything.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think just to, to get really practical, um, to kind of like the up to date. So when I was kind of winding down therapy and was still, you know, feeling depressed and just kind of having some of those thoughts, I think one thing that I decided to do is just to kind of get back To some habits that I had that, you know, really helped me feel good at a different point in my life.

And so for me, [00:45:00] and again, this is not for everybody, but just what I decided to do for a three month time period was like, all right, I'm going to cut out coffee. I'm going to cut out drinking and kind of, I started running again, which was something that I had done very frequently in high school. Cause you know, I did soccer and track, but after that it was just always very sporadic.

And then, you know, actually ended up training for a longer race that I ran with my brother. And I think just having that was, you know, something good because I really think when it comes to the healing thing, like I think physical movement and exercise has so much more to offer us than we're even aware of.

And, you know, that was just so beneficial for me. So to anybody who is feeling stuck, like. You know, if that is within your power to take a 10 minute walk or a 15 minute walk, just start there. You know, like even when I was working a job that was crazy hours, that was super difficult, like way over the top, I would make time to just do pushups once a day with all my buddies in the office.

And like, you know, little things like that can make [00:46:00] a big difference. So that's something practical. That's kind of just like more recent in my life. Yeah, I'm just thinking other healing. Can I jump

Speaker: in there for a second? I was just thinking how useful that tip you just said is, and just wanted to add my take on it.

So often for me, when I was going through like really tough, broken parts of my life, and I was really struggling, I often found that I would just like get stuck in my head. I know, or I would like hyper focus on my emotions. And like you just described, it was just really freeing to kind of get out of my mind and like into my body.

And so, like you said, like working out doing, you know, just enjoying like a beautiful sunset, going on a walk, swimming, like whatever form that took, just some sort of like movement and kind of some sort of sensory experience, healthy sensory experience, like. Yeah, that was healing. That was helpful. It helped calm me down, especially if I was anxious or gave me a little bit of life if I was like down and depressed.

So yeah, all of that I think is super, super useful and very practical for someone who maybe is in the midst of it right now.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And then a different avenue that's been, I think, just really beautiful for me [00:47:00] personally. I know that not everybody has more of an artistic bend, but for me, like, I'm not a great painter, but like what does come naturally To me is writing.

So I really just enjoy writing, you know, just about my feelings. And that's something that I was encouraged to do kind of starting in high school, but just, you know, writing journaling has been really, really powerful for me. And then I think just kind of the acts of little beautiful things. So I'm a drummer and I can't actually like write songs because I don't understand melody, but I've learned enough to be able to, you know, write these little attempts at songs.

And. It's just so joy filling and life bringing for me to be able to take this thing that I feel and, you know, communicate it and put it into these melody and these lyrics. And then to be able to, you know, hopefully one day share that with other people. And again, like full transparency, this is not on Spotify.

I am not good at this. This is just something that I do purely because I love it. And so, you know, whatever your thing is Don't assume that you have to be a master at any [00:48:00] artistic endeavor for it to have value in your life. Like art just has this beautiful healing capacity that's available to all people.

You know, everybody has a voice. Everybody can sing, even if it's out of tune, you know, most people, I shouldn't say that caveat most people, but you know, like we all have opportunities to just really explore those little artistic creative things. So whatever that is for you, like, I would just encourage you to throw yourself into that.

With the confidence of a little kid just, you know, so excited to try something because it's kind of like the backdoor to healing, you know, in the same way I was talking about how drumming was just super good for me. I think those, there's something really special about art and creativity and just those things that bring us pleasure that there's no expectations tied to, you know, that can just really be a beautiful avenue to kind of take you out of all the negative and just kind of give you this backdoor into.

Yeah, just a positive frame of mind.

Speaker: So good. And it's so interesting what I've learned from like listening to trauma therapists and even interviewing someone here is being artistic accesses the part of your [00:49:00] brain where trauma typically stored. Um, it's like the emotional part of your brain. So you have.

One brain theory, this is just one, is like you divide your brain into two, there's like the logical part, which is more associated with like math, solving problems, you know, logic, things like that. Then there's the emotional side of your brain, which is more associated with, yeah, just being artistic, like kind of feeling feelings and then, you know, responding in like emergency situations.

It's not as much thoughtful, so to say, but just more reactive. And when we do When we're artistic, it actually accesses that part of our brain. And what can often happen with trauma is that when we go through something traumatic, that emotional part of our brain takes over because we get in this like fight or flight mode.

And so that part of the brain actually like commandeers everything else. And so it can be really difficult, like you described earlier in your story, can be really difficult to put into words those experiences that we've been through, the struggles that we're having because they're so deeply like ingrained in that emotional side of the brain.

And so one of the ways that therapists like activate that or access that is through art. And so, [00:50:00] like you said, super, super helpful in healing. And you don't necessarily need a therapist to like do art, but they use it in their therapy to, to help kind of bring healing. And so one thing too, about that, that I've learned, I mentioned this in other episodes, but.

Um, that emotional side of your brain doesn't have a sense of time. And so, like we were saying before, if you haven't kind of brought closure to some trauma from your past, some really difficult experience that you had that really left an impact on you and you weren't able to really cope with well, then yeah, it can like still be affecting you to this day to where you can be walking around like you're.

You know, 25, 30 year old man, but if it's triggered in the right way, you can then act like a 10 year old. And, and this happens a lot, right? And so one of the ways to, to heal that is to, you know, kind of access that part of your brain and be able to tell, you know, that younger you, Hey, this is over. It's in the past.

We're like a better, stronger person now to handle it. Like that was a really difficult thing to go through. Not. Minimizing it at all. But now we can like move on with our life. It's not, doesn't need to control us. So anyway, [00:51:00] not to go on that too much of a tangent there, but I thought it's really powerful.

And I think just validates the whole thing of like, yeah, art is a good thing. And whatever form that takes for you, I think it can be really, really healing.

Speaker 2: And I think one last thing that I would be remiss if I didn't share, um, I remember after I'd had that sixth grade moment, I was going on like this kind of church retreat and, you know, I just always felt like at school, you know, I was made fun of or put down and just, you know, kids in the neighborhood, like whatever it just, there was never really a space where I knew that I could fully be myself and just be accepted.

And for me, I found that space for the first time at the youth group at our church. And I just remember, you know, Feeling love for who I was and that, you know, I could really be accepted as I am. And again, you know, I know that there's many people from many different faith and belief backgrounds. Um, and so, you know, whatever that looks like for you, I just truly, I think that's the thing that's made the biggest difference for me was just having, you know, a couple older adults outside my immediate family, really believe in me and [00:52:00] pour into me and really having a community of people, just a safe space where I could just belong.

And just be totally weird and totally, you know, goofy and just be accepted and be celebrated for that. And so I just realized I was like, wow I've spent this whole time talking about everything else except, you know Probably the thing that has had the biggest impact And you know that could be hard to find like especially if you're kind of out of the school college environment Like that's difficult to find but man it is worth fighting for and it is worth Putting yourself out there to find those spaces because, you know, at the end of the day, we're social beings, social creatures that are sometimes rational.

You know, we're not rational creatures that are sometimes social. So yeah, we really do need other people. And, uh, I hope that if you don't have people like that, that you can find them. And, you know, I'm certainly, I think there's A lot of people who would want to connect with you like that

Speaker: really good stuff.

I love how practical all of your advice has been. You've done this throughout the conversation, but if you would kind of quickly summarize, how's your life different now? Like you've gone through [00:53:00] this healing process, this transformation, obviously we're always still a work in progress. It's not something that's necessarily one and done.

And like you said before, healing isn't linear. It kind of, you know, jumps around. It's personal. It's the way we talk about it. So I'm just curious. Yeah. Contrast, um, for us quickly, how life is now to compared to how it was.

Speaker 2: Man, you get me excited, Joey. This is good stuff, man. So, I mean, honestly, you know, like full transparency, I was crying in my car yesterday, like the ups and the downs are still there, but man, I.

Genuinely for all the struggle and all the pain and the deep grief that I feel like I've walked through, I feel like through strength outside of my own, that I have really come to experience a hope that is deep and that's lasting. And I really, you know, believe that God wants that for everybody and that that's available to everybody.

And I just, you know, whether you believe in that or not, like God loves you, he does have a plan for your life. He's always been there for you. He always will be there for you. And [00:54:00] I just really, you know, if you are, if you don't believe that right now for yourself, just know that I'm believing that for you.

And yeah, man, like it's funny because if 27 year old me sat down with. Eight year old me, 10, 15, 20 year old me and said, there's hope I might laugh in his face and try to fight him, you know, but truly just in the most compassionate way I can say it, dude, there is hope in your darkest night. There is hope in the midst and the thickness of the struggle.

You know, you might not be able to see that, but I promise you that there is a morning. The morning does come. And I just want you to hold on to that, man. Like whoever's listening to this, like, just get some fire in your chest and just like, know that, you know, it's not all ever going to be okay, but like, it's meaningful and there is purpose.

And so I just hope that you feel empowered that no matter who you are, no matter where you've come from, no matter what your circumstances are, like there is a plan for your life and it is meaningful and it is purposeful. You're loved. And you're valuable and you're needed so

Speaker: [00:55:00] good, man. Thank you for all that.

And if someone wanted to get in touch with you or maybe even check out some of your music, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So I haven't, uh, released any of my music, but I'm happy to like, share with you my little garage band demos, which is just me and an acoustic guitar, like do it a little bit.

But yeah, I'm definitely happy to like reach out to people via email. Um, you know, we can just connect there and then, uh, can go from there. And I think, uh, you'll have that available for people too.

Speaker: Yeah. Thank you. We'll throw that in the show notes and no, I'm excited to, uh, once. Yeah. You know, whenever. You do put stuff on Spotify.

We'll be ready to listen. So it was awesome. Thank you so much. And man, what you just said was like kind of the last word, but I just want to throw it back to you maybe one more time and just see if there's any final pieces of encouragement or advice that you would give to the younger, you listening right now, like to close this out, what would you say?

And again, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2: Yeah, man, thank you so much for having me. It's a, it's an absolute joy just to be able to [00:56:00] share, you know, The real depths of the hardness to be able to share the real, the real heights of the hope what I would say to my younger self. Oh, man, that's a deep one. Um, I feel like for, for me personally, you know, it's hard not to give a faith based answer for this one.

Um, so I think for me, it would just be that. God's promises are true. And I think at the end of the day, it's hard to believe sometimes that he is always there for us and that he loves us and he has a plan, but enduringly through the worst, the best, and the most like crazy moments of my life, I have really witnessed those to be true.

And I'm grateful that I get to testify of that today.

Speaker: If you'd like to share your story with us like Ethan did, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three simple steps. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story. Reflecting on your story and sharing your story with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level.

It makes your brain healthier, according to [00:57:00] neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives, they're healthier, they're happier, they're less depressed. less anxious, uh, and so on. And finally, it can just be super helpful for someone to read your story.

Who's maybe a few steps behind you, they're going through things that you went through. They can get a lot of encouragement and advice by reading. Your story. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored. Ministry dot com slash story on that page. You'll Tell your story, uh, following the forms, just a short version of your story.

And then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. Again, you can share your story now at restored ministry. com slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal [00:58:00] from the trauma you've endured and build virtue, too. So you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone, you know, you can go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents, divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them honestly. Feel free to take 30 seconds now to just text them and just say, Hey, I heard this episode thought of you, thought it might be helpful.

I promise you as someone who comes from a broken family, if someone would have done that to me, it would have been super, super helpful. In closing, always remember you're not alone. We're to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending. [00:59:00]

#123: What I Wish Never Happened, I Am The Most Grateful For | Jack Beers

Pending! Stay tuned.

At a young age, Jack learned he had an incurable disease. That naturally brought lots of physical and emotional pain into his life. But through that suffering, the lessons he learned and the transformation he experienced led him to say, “The thing I wish most never happened, I am most grateful for.” 

In this episode, we discuss what led to that transformation and more:

• The bitterness and loneliness he felt and how his life looks now

• Our tendency to “replay” the trauma we’ve endured and what to do if you feel stuck

• Why we need mentors in our lives to guide and challenge us, but also to help us see our blindspots

JackBeers.com

TheCatholicMentor.com

Schedule a FREE call with Jack

View Restored’s Resources

DakotaLaneFitness.com

Book: “Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing” - Jay Stringer

Links & Resources

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: [00:00:00] At a young age, Jack was diagnosed with an incurable disease, and as you can imagine, it brought a lot of physical and emotional pain into his life. But, uh, through that suffering, through that experience, the lessons he learned, and the transformation that he experienced, led him to say this. The thing I wish most never happened, I am most grateful.

Four in this episode, we dive into that, but especially we talk about like what led up to that transformation and so much more like the bitterness and the loneliness that he felt going through all of that, uh, in the moment that transformed his disease from a description to a dare. Uh, we also hit on the lessons that he learned from his pain and how his life looks different.

Now, uh, he answers the question, how do we actually transform some, how do we transform in a way that actually lasts, that actually changes us into a better version of ourselves. We talked about our tendency to. We're going to re play the trauma that we've endured and what to do if you feel stuck. And finally, why we need mentors in our lives to guide us, to challenge us, but also to kind of point out our [00:01:00] blind spots.

So, if you or someone you know has struggled navigating, you know, pain and suffering in your life, You're not going to want to miss this episode. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation, or broken marriage. So you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 123.

We're so happy that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard numerous stories of people who've just been really helped by the podcast. One listener said this, I'm so thankful for finding this community. Your podcast couldn't have come at a better time. I literally found it only days after your first episode and it was so therapeutic and helpful.

It feels so good and sad, of course, to know that the feelings you have growing up in such an [00:02:00] environment are something others also can relate to. Earlier, I have been made to believe that my feelings are over the top and have been told, especially by my mom, that all people have problems and that the world still has to go on.

Now, I know that it is allowed to have unfinished emotions and that you can't just brush problems under a rug. I'd like that you encourage us to take steps to try to heal and deal with the wrongs from our past. Thank you for that. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out or eating healthier, perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans. It just didn't work for you. Then this is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds [00:03:00] Customize fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment. But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I want to mention three things.

One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped. Dude, he's also a good virtuous man, too. He's not just, you know, obsessed with the way that he looks. Uh, second thing is he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And through that experience and studying at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest of your, yourself, like your body.

Uh, we really need to care for it all so that we can become more virtuous and more free. Uh, to love. And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people, you know, look good on the beach or something like that. His mission is to really lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

And so if you desire freedom, if you desire [00:04:00] transforming your body and your life, Dakota can help you. One client said this Dakota lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing transformations that his clients have achieved, just go to dakotalanefitness. com, dakotalanefitness. com, or just click on the link in the show notes. Uh, by the way, this is the last time that you'll hear about Dakota Lane Fitness.

So if you're on the fence, you know, maybe you've heard this before and like, man, I would like to check that out. I recommend just doing three really simple things. A one, just go to his website, click on the show notes, go to dakotalanefitness. com, just, just go to the website. Once you're on there, he has a transformations page at this recording as his transformation.

And you'll see kind of a mix of before and after pictures as well as testimonials from, from his clients just to see how Dakota has helped other [00:05:00] people. And then finally, if you want to take another step in that direction, you can schedule a free console. Just click on the, the contact button on his website and you can fill out a form to just schedule a free consult with him and you can just get a little bit more information about what it might look like, the pricing and everything, uh, of working with Dakota.

And again, You have nothing to lose, uh, just a little bit of time and effort, but, um, I'm sure it will, I'm sure it will help you. And so I definitely recommend checking him out again, go ahead and click on the link in the show notes or go to Dakota lane fitness. com, uh, to make use of all that. My guest today is Jack Beers.

Jack is the founder and leader of the Catholic Mentor. On top of over a decade in ministry as a speaker and leader, Jack is a certified mentor through the Catholic Psych Institute. He is trained to accompany individuals Through the storms of life by an integration, sound, uh, psychology and authentic Catholic anthropology.

It's kind of big words, but we'll break into those in this episode. Um, the certification was developed and led by Dr. Gregory Bataro. Uh, Jack lives in [00:06:00] Cincinnati with his wife and their two children. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Jack. Jack, so good to have you. Welcome.

Jack: Great to be here with you, Joey.

Thanks for having me.

Joey: Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you. Um, I have to ask kind of the obvious question, given your last name, do you like beer? Do you drink beer?

Jack: Yeah. So I usually, when people ask me, oh, your name is Jack Beers, you know, like, uh, that's awesome. What a great name. I'll usually be like, you know, my middle name is Daniels.

With an S, you know, I'm very Irish, you know, I have Irish parents, you know, it's not, you know, but if people get really pumped by it, I mean, I literally have a memory of being 10 and having being in a baseball field and having high schoolers come to you be like, wow, one day you're going to have some great parties, man.

Could be awesome. And, uh, and I'm an irony. I can't drink beer. So I, it's just a walking irony. Look at people. I want to drink beer with this guy. Well, like, I can't if you want to [00:07:00] Jameson on the rocks, you know, we could do that together, but you know, I'm not, I'm not going to fulfill your lifelong fantasy of, of watching someone with the last name of beers, you know, drain a beer or whatever.

Joey: I love the Jack Daniels joke. That's what's legend good stuff, man. Well, yeah,

Jack: yeah.

Joey: Shift into more serious items. I, um, I know, you know, a lot of people listening right now have endured a lot of pain, a lot of suffering because of their parents divorce, the breakdown of their family and everything that comes along with that.

And so while that might not be specifically part of your story, I know you have suffered. How's about that?

Jack: That's quite the transition. Um, yeah, I, I'm so grateful to be able to go deep here with you. Um, suffering has been a huge part of my life and it's been, uh, I think Tolkien said this. He's like the thing for which I wish most never happened.

I am most grateful for. He said and I, I very much come to a place of that. Where the things that I wish most never happened to me are the things in which [00:08:00] I'm most grateful for at the same time. And it took a long time to get there. It took a lot of work to get there. But I, I do like to frame the idea of suffering.

Like, I know that people have suffered more than me. And I know that the suffering that, that I have is, um, you know, relatively speaking is what it is. But, but it is still real. And it is still. Difficult and challenging. Anyway, so to the details of it, uh, when I was 11, I've always been like this. I've always been like tall and lanky and like a strong breeze could blow me over.

So I've never been, you know, I've never been necessarily robust physically. And when I was 11, I lost 15 pounds in 10 days. And I had a shortcut, and, you know, I looked like I was dying. I looked like I was a cancer patient. You could see my ribs and all this stuff. And it turned out that I had something called Crohn's disease, which is a, which is a chronic illness.

And, and this is like 2001. There's no [00:09:00] gluten free anything anywhere that's not like celiac. It's just known by people. It's like no one in my circle had ever heard of Crohn's disease, unless they're part of the medical community. And so we, my parents and I, like, we had. I have no idea what's happening.

It's like you lose, you know, 15 pounds in 10 days. And now you have this thing, it's called Crohn. And I remember I was, I'm 11, I have a fever and Crohn's can manifest itself in all different kinds of ways. And, and for me, I had like an exterior abscess and I, and I, so like it was painful, like I couldn't walk from 15 feet from my room to the bathroom.

I couldn't physically do it. It would just, it was too painful. So. For me to do just like hurt too much, uh, to move. So I'm like sitting in this doctor's office, I'm 11 and I have a fever. It's like one Oh two, one Oh three. And it's just constant. Like I can't move. I'm in a lot of pain. I just found out I have Crohn's disease.

And this doctor's like, okay, you're in a great spot. You know, I'm the best [00:10:00] doctor in the East coast for this. I have access to the best medication in the world. And I can get you down to three hospital stays a year, every year for the rest of your life. And my parents were just like, what? Yeah. Three hospital stays a year every year for the rest of his life.

Like, what is, what does that mean? What is his life going to look like? And this doctor straight up just went, you're going to have, you're not going to be taller than five foot two. You're not going to be able to hold down a job. You won't be able to go away to college. Like you, you need to understand something.

Like your son is now disabled. That's what it is. And I was like, I mean, I'm 11, but you're, even at 11, right? Like, you're conscious of what's happening. I'm aware of what this guy is saying. And I remember my mom looking at me and being like, that will not be your life. Like, whatever that man said, like, throw it out of your mind.

Like, that will not be your life. But I You know, I kind of believe the doctors, more of a, I believe my mom there. And so through the first four years of me having Crohn's disease, I missed over 250 days of school. I barely grew. I mean, [00:11:00] everything but the number of hospital stays was kind of coming through, coming to fruition from, from what the doctor shared over the course of the first four years.

And it was, yeah, it was awful. It was awful.

Joey: No, I can't imagine just being in your shoes and, you know, up to that point, it sounded like life was more or less normal. You know, you were, Growing and yeah, just things in life kind of looked like you'd expect for someone at that age. And then all of a sudden it just completely turns on its head, like how difficult.

And one of the questions just in preparing for this interview that I was thinking through, it's like the lessons that were, you know, kind of baked into that experience. And so I'd love to tend to tease that out because I really am a firm believer that like you said, with the token quote, there's All these like really difficult, painful things we go through in life, but my goodness, it can like warm us.

It can transform us. It can like teach us so, so much. So yeah, what lessons did you learn through this whole experience?

Jack: Yeah, well, you know, I'd probably go on for a long time on this one, but yeah, so I, like I said, the first four years were really, you know, they were brutal. I remember watching the Red [00:12:00] Sox come back and beat the Yankees and I'm a huge New York Mets fan, so I was happily rooting for that.

And just. It was when that happened, when Big Poppy was, you know, breaking his bat and hitting a base hit over second to win the game in extras, or hitting his home run to win the game in extras, or Johnny Damon's hitting a grand slam to just, Absolutely wrecked the Yanks in game seven. Like that was, that was probably the peak worst period for me.

Like I was watching that semi and I mean, it was, and by worse, I mean, like pain wise, like I was literally, it felt like my body was on fire. Like I could remember watching that game and just. Being on fire. And so I really feel like there were three levels of pain for me over the course of those first four years and the first two I was really cognizant of because they were obvious.

The first one was the physical pain, right? Like it just You're just suffering like I'm just sitting there suffering like can't play baseball. I'm extracted from social life It's just [00:13:00] physically difficult to get around and be around and move. So there's the physical pain The next one is is the emotional pain and the emotional suffering.

So when I first got sick, I got all this attention Letters and notes and gifts and presents and everything along those lines and then pretty much out of sight out of mind Everybody else abandoned me. It was sort of isolated I had my parents and I had my twin sister who and my grandmother who really cared everybody else aunts and uncles other Grandparents people I thought were friends It's like I didn't exist and I sort of been wiped off the face of the planet and it was very lonely You And I got bitter as all getup.

I was, um, I don't know if you've ever seen It's a Wonderful Life, but there's this, uh, there's this famous moment where sort of the evil character is like, you once called me a warped, frustrated old man. What are you but a warped, frustrated young man? And that's, that was me. I'm like 14 [00:14:00] years old, warped, frustrated.

Bitter, resentful of being abandoned, resentful of having to suffer, resentful of, you know, just very frustrated and angry over, you know, in being imprisoned by this physical limitation. But the thing was, is like, I didn't, I didn't necessarily have to be. My parents had found a different doctor and this really intense food regimen.

It's called a specific carbohydrate diet and we found a way for it to work for me, but it was like I could have like 12 items of food that includes like spices. Wow. So, I mean, I counted once it was like 12 or 17. I don't remember what one. So, like, I would go when I go to school, right? And it would be like, you know, you're in 6th grade and it's an ice cream party, like looking at kids eating a Sunday and I'm eating an overly ripe banana.

You know, it's like. Yeah. That sucks. You know, you go to the Super Bowl party and everybody's eating pizza and I'm eating dry, lightly salted chicken and lettuce with no salad dressing. You know, it's like, that sucks. [00:15:00] But it had the potential to work. Like, we'd seen flashes and it worked, uh, at different, at different periods.

I would go through two or three months where I would be super healthy. And then, and then it would be back down. Anyway, so there was, I, I had this physical pain and this emotional pain and this emotional bitterness, but I also had this tool, this, this food regimen that was at my disposal that could help me get healthy.

And when I was 14, I was sitting in my room and my mom came into my room and she had two presents for me. And at that time, I was, it was shortly after the Red Sox had won the World Series and I had to be homeschooled the whole year because it physically, it was, it was that bad. And so I was, I was pretty down, pretty emotionally frustrated and all that stuff.

And my mom, she just comes into my room and she's got two gifts for me. And the first gift is a, a wall sized poster of Muhammad Ali. And at that time, Adidas was running this ad campaign that said impossible is nothing. And so it was Muhammad Ali standing over Sonny [00:16:00] Liston, yelling at him to get up and fight him like a real man, about to become heavyweight champion of the world.

And then on the bottom, it says impossible is nothing. And my mom, she just absolutely calls me out. And, and she's like, I've been trying to will you to health. I've been trying to will you to put your mind and your heart and your everything into getting healthy, but you're sitting on the sidelines, you're not engaged, you're going through the motions, and the truth is, you can take incurable as a declaration, or you could take it as a dare, a dare to rise to the occasion of your life.

So she shows me the poster, and she's like, Muhammad Ali said, impossible is just a made up word. Impossible is nothing. Impossible is a dare. And she, so she goes through this whole quote of, of Muhammad Ali. She's like, apply that to incurable. Incurable is just a word. It's nothing. It's a dare. It's not a declaration.

It's a dare. And it's life daring you to rise to the occasion of it, to grow from it, to embrace it. So she hands me the second gift [00:17:00] and it's, um, it's a dog tag. And on the dog tag, it says, Incurable is not a declaration. It's a dare. And, and she's like, I'll continue to do everything I can to help you get healthy, but you never will until you, until you get in the game.

So get in the game and, uh, yeah, so she absolutely called me out and one of the most inspiring moments of my entire life and I decided to, to take her up on it. I decided to take to the dare. I decided to, um, as, uh, Robert Downey jr would say, uh, hug the cactus. I decided to confront the inner self and turn toward the inner storm, and nothing changed about my exterior life, man.

Like, nothing changed. The diet didn't change. My school didn't change. My family didn't change. Nothing about my external life changed. Nothing about my external environment changed. First four years, I missed 250 days of school. The next eight years through college, um, I missed less than 10. I grew to [00:18:00] be six feet tall.

I went away to school. I was, for all intents and purposes, you couldn't tell that I had a chronic illness and what made the difference was doing the inner work and the original question is a really long answer to it. But the original question is like, what's one of the life lessons that you learned? And so I just, I go to the, I go to the biggest one, which is you got to confront the dragon within.

All the crap that was happening inside of me, that I was bottling up, that I was pushing down, that I was ignoring, that I refused to confront, the anger, the bitterness, the frustration, the the sense that this was unfair, I have three sister I have two sisters, like, why did I get it? One of them's a twin, why did I get it?

Everybody else gets to live a normal life, why do I have to sit over here and eat this disgusting food and in order to just be normal and then confront a lot of the bitterness and the pain of other people and being abandoned and not walking around so angry all of the time at everyone. That was the lesson.

Like I got to turn toward the storm. I can't [00:19:00] run away from it. I have to turn toward it. I have to embrace it more than anything.

Joey: Wow. What a story. I so much. I want to say one of the things that you just brought to mind was this whole battle with ourselves, right? I think that so often I know in my life, it's myself has been like the scariest person to face.

And, and it's just fascinating. So I love your insight on that. Like, why is that such a scary thing? Why do, and why do we avoid it so much? Like, why do we run in the opposite direction? It seems like we'd almost, you know, be more willing to face like these Insurmountable like enemies on the outside than just look interiorly and face ourselves.

Jack: It's a great question. I think one of one of the reasons is that every spiritual master, every master of the inner life has essentially said, if you want to dive deep and look at yourself, you have to do it. with someone else. Like, you cannot do it alone. It's not like a David and Goliath situation where you're out, and you're looking at this big Goliath, and you're like, okay, well, [00:20:00] what weapons do I have?

You know, like, I'll just, I'll just fight, or I'll learn, I'll be trained how to fight, and then I'll just, like, go fight. Like, the inner world, because of the natural inclination of the emotional life and the inner life to protect ourselves and to deceive ourselves, it can be so hard to unravel. And really understand it, and you actually need someone else to reflect you back to you, to really be able to understand you.

So part of it is just practical, like, you can't really do it alone. And, and none of the, the masters of the inner world, and we could be talking about Buddha, we could be talking about St. Francis de Sales, we could be talking about modern mindfulness practitioners, you know, like, Everybody talks about having a guide to help you enter into the inner life, make sense of what's going on.

One of the things that that has really become true and, and that we've developed a deeper understanding about from a psychological perspective is that, is that we're, we're made up [00:21:00] of a bunch of inner parts and multiple personality disorder is a disorder of something that is actually natural and good within us, which is when something happens, like we win the lottery.

Multiple parts of us react to the same thing. One of the simplest examples of it, it would be like, not the lottery, but like, if you're gonna go play a game, and part of you is excited, but part of you is nervous, right, like you feel both emotions at the same time. It's because there's literally a part of you that feels the nerves, and a part of you that is excited.

Like, I love baseball, I would always be nervous, because I was afraid, there's a part of me that was always afraid of failing. And then I would also be really excited because there's a part of me that loves baseball, that loves to play the game, right? So you go to get married, and there's a part of you that loves your spouse.

But there's another part of you that has, comes from a broken home, and it's that arrested development part. It's that 10 year old sitting in your parents living room, like, hearing that your parents are getting divorced. That is [00:22:00] also reacting to this idea of getting married. That's like marriage is a sham.

You know, you're only going to hurt people. It's not real. Like that part of you is until that part of you is healed. Like you can't, you can't contain that part of you from reacting and for you to make sense of all of those different parts and how they interact with one another is not something for someone to do by themself.

Like you need to be able to do it with with the help of somebody else.

Joey: So good. One of the principles that we operate on is that healing happens in relationships.

Jack: Yeah.

Joey: Healing happens in, in relationship and it's exactly for the reason you said. And yeah, no, so good. And I think the other thing that comes to mind when you say all that is the idea of blind spots.

I think you articulated that really well that there's literally things that you can't see or access or, you know, Work through on your own and there's different, you know, parts of this, like, since we're using the sports analogy, it's like, you know, I was a baseball player as well through the years and play with some incredible guys.

I was never like at the D one level, but I play with guys who [00:23:00] D one got drafted, all that stuff. And, uh, you know, whether it was them or me, someone, you know, not as skilled, there were certain parts of my swing or, you know, feeling or whatever that maybe I was doing wrong that I couldn't. Yeah. See or know until a coach came up to me and said, Hey, the way you're fielding that ball, like try this, you know, try picking it or funneling it this way, try, you know, the way you're swinging, like loosen your hands a little bit more, drop your elbow, all of that.

And I went through coaching like that and it's amazing, like the transformation you could see, but I could have, honestly, Jack, I could have spent like a year trying to like critique my own swing and I probably would have missed a lot of that.

Jack: Yeah. So I

Joey: think it's, it's so profound. Like you have a coach, a guide, um, in your life who's able to kind of point out those blind spots and then give you a bit of a plan to work through that.

Jack: Yes. I, one of the most amazing things is actually, it's not the most masculine thing in the world, but it's art. Art is some of the best. It contains some of some of the best tools to elicit sort of hidden exiles within you. Um, I was working with [00:24:00] with one of my clients and I know we'll talk about what I do at some point, but it's working with one of them.

And really discovered that he was having some trouble in his marriage and that one of his main pain points that he couldn't get past was actually something that happened to him when he was pre verbal, so like he couldn't communicate. So he couldn't share with me what was really happening or what was really driving, um, this behavior that was causing a lot of conflict in his marriage.

And so I, I asked him to draw himself in conflict with his wife. Just draw your image of what's happening. And what he drew unlocked so much of what was happening, because the content almost didn't matter, like, what happened to him didn't matter. What happened was how he felt in that context, and how it keeps getting duplicated over and over and over again in different contexts, right?

He keeps having the same emotional reaction regardless of the content, because there's a part of him that keeps emerging. So he could never [00:25:00] see that part, understand that part, speak to that part. Until I was sort of able to help draw that out of him through the art of drawing, which is an amazing thing, but you know, you're never going to think of that on your own, right?

You're never going to come to that on your own. It's like, how am I going to break this pattern in my life? How am I going to trust people again? How am I going to do, how can I possibly believe that love is worth it or that setting myself up to be hurt again is worth it? It's like, well, you have to talk to that part of you that thinks it's not worth it and you have to understand it.

And and understand the role it's playing in your life and know that that part of you is good. It just doesn't want you to get hurt. It's not helping you right now, but it's still good. It doesn't. It desires your good. So how do we how do we engage with that part of you and understand it? And it's you cannot do that alone.

Joey: You can't. No, it's so good. And I love men. What a great example on how helpful. Sit to that, you know, client of yours, my goodness. I'm sure you know this, but that's like what therapists will do. I know you're not a therapist and you weren't trying to give [00:26:00] therapy, but that's what therapists will do in trauma therapy.

I've been through it myself. And like the use of art therapy is so important because my understanding of it, one theory of like the brain is that we have One side of our brain is more emotional, and the other side of our brain is more logical. And the logical side of our brain is the part of our brain that controls language, and, you know, math, and things like that.

The emotional side of our brain is more controlling, you know, reaction, and like, if we're in danger, then it will, you know, kind of take control. And literally, when you go through something traumatic, The logical part of your brain actually constricts, it chemically constricts, it gets smaller, the emotional side gets bigger so that you can react and save your life, right?

Think of, you know, extreme examples of a tiger chasing you or other examples, like, you know, we're talking about your parents getting divorced. And so. So the pre verbal thing that happened with that client is so interesting to me because that is similar even with people who are post verbal, who can, you know, speak and things, they might not even be able to articulate what they had been through because the place where the trauma is encoded is in that emotional side of their brain.

And so the [00:27:00] art therapy side of it can help people go beyond the language. And one other thing that I think is just so fascinating that I loved learning, I want to share with everyone listening is. Um, there's a part of our brain, I think it's called Broca's area, if I'm getting that right. And, uh, and that part of our brain, um, does play a role in like controlling language, helping us put things to words.

And that part of our brain will actually go offline when we've endured a trauma, or maybe more contextual to that sort of trauma when things are triggered. Um, which is so fascinating. So no, I just love, I couldn't help but share that because I think it's so helpful. And especially if people are, you know, experiencing this right now, maybe they've been through some traumatic, their family falling apart, their parents getting divorced, whatever.

And, you know, they are like struggling to like put it into words. It's like, well, there you go. There's some of the science of it. Maybe not perfectly articulated, but, um, it's certainly, certainly helpful.

Jack: Yeah, and and the other thing is because you can't this is one of the things that I learned about myself as well It's like because you can't articulate it because you're not exactly sure what's happening You will actually try and replay [00:28:00] your trauma in other Contexts across time in an attempt to try and win right like our brain categorizes it as a loss Something happened and we got hurt And we want to replay the circumstances again across time and across other relationships so that we can win and avoid that hurt.

So like for me, right, like I, I get sick and I perceive people all over the place as abandoning me. So in my mind, I'm not conscious of this, but in my mind, like when you get close to people who don't have to love you, like mom and dad, like they will burn you. So, what did I start doing? I started burning those relationships before they had a chance to burn me.

So, it keeps happening over and over again, where relationships end prematurely, or I make sure I'm the one who breaks up with the girl, whether or not I have a good reason. Um, it's like, what's happening there? Why is that pattern repeating itself? Well, it's because I don't want to have the same thing happen again.

[00:29:00] I don't want to get so vulnerable to the, I don't want to go vulnerable past the point of knowing that I'm going to get hurt to a similar degree as this other circumstance, so I'm going to cut this relationship off, so that doesn't happen, so I don't have to trust you, so I don't have to be vulnerable with you, so I don't have to be in a relationship with you, and so I just had really superficial relationships for a really long period of time, and it was, And it was specifically because I was replaying that trauma.

I'm going to end this before you have a chance to end it with me. So good.

Joey: I love that language that you put to that, like how we're replaying the trauma. I've heard people talk about it in other ways, but that, like, for some reason really sticks well with me, how we're attempting to turn a loss into a win.

Super good. I think the other side of that coin too, that people have heard, maybe I'll talk about in the show is this idea of like repetition compulsion, how we might end up repeating behavior that harmed us or we despise. Yes. And it was just so, so interesting, fascinating and such a big pain point, by the way, Jack, for people like us, [00:30:00] who like me, who come from broken families, because we saw something that was very broken and painful.

And we went through that ourselves with our parents marriage falling apart or whatever dysfunction at home. And we're like terrified of repeating that in our own lives, especially if there were extreme things like infidelity or whatever. Um, and so that that's like a major concern. So this whole idea of repetition, compulsion, and trying to avoid that is just like such a big, Concern, even if it's something that's not like this conscious, it's somewhere, you know, in our subconscious often pulling at us.

So I'm curious to your like insights or advice on that side of the coin of kind of this fear of going down this path that we really don't want to go on.

Jack: Yeah, well, so there's so many different things that could happen. So my dad, my dad's parents got divorced, um, my grandfather was, was unfaithful, and it was just an absolute abject mess of a home, right?

So my dad decided he was gonna be the exact opposite of his dad, right? Like, that was his, that was his reaction, that was his play. And he was gonna go to the, the [00:31:00] extreme other side. So you can do that. Other people don't want to hurt anybody else, so they'll, so they'll isolate, or they'll, Depending on when divorce happens, you know, if it happens in the preteen years, let's say 13, 14, one of the most natural things to do is to sexualize your pain because you have a sexual awakening.

And so you start sexualizing your pain, whether that be creating fantasies or scenarios in which you're in complete control. So like porn is a big, can be a big challenge for people coming out of divorce because One of the, one of the things that porn does for a person is it puts you entirely in control of your whole scenario and of your entire environment and people who come from broken families, it's like, you're not in control of your dad, you're not in control of your mom, you're not in control of where you live, you're not in control of whose house maybe you're going to be in, you're not in control of how you're spoken to, whether dad keeps crapping on mom or mom keeps crapping on dad, like you're not in control of it.

Anything. And so you're looking to have some form of control. So [00:32:00] you turn to something that you can control or, you know, you want to numb, right? So what's one of the biggest things that can happen for people who deal with a lot of pain is that they don't want to feel what they're feeling anymore. So they'll, they'll drink excessively or they'll, or they'll smoke weed and get high.

It's like when things get too difficult, you know, you smoke weed and you can get high or you become a self fulfilling prophecy. Right? You start, you start doing the things that you hate were done to you. And that part is like, this happens all the time with parents. So you become a parent, and all of a sudden you're like, Oh my gosh, that was my dad speaking.

Right? That wasn't me. And they have this realization. They're like, Oh crap, I'm turning into my mom. And it's like, you're not turning into your mom. You're not turning into your dad. It's literally the only context you have for parenthood. Right? So it's like, I want to go into a relationship. Okay, what's your only context for romance?

You have a tendency to then duplicate that over time, [00:33:00] because it's like, I don't know what to do. When a woman comes to me, let's say I'm a man, and my parents got divorced, and a woman comes to me, and she's emotionally needy. And I only ever saw my dad say to my mom, like, shut up and get me a beer, or like, Shut up and make dinner and now I have a girlfriend who's crying excessively and it doesn't make any sense to my male Logical emotional brain and my only context is shut up and deal with it and serve me It's like what are you gonna do in that moment?

For a number of people, the response is, I'm going to do some form of what I saw, because I'm just, I'm just reacting. I'm not thinking about it. And so I, I do it, especially, especially if you idolize that parent in particular, and part of the divorce was, was a shattering of the character, of the person who you really loved.

Then it's even more complicated because you're wanting to imitate someone, and there's a part of you that always wanted to imitate this person that [00:34:00] you idealized, and now the idealization is shattered, and you're, you're not sure what to do with that. Anyway, all of that, across all of these contexts, the content almost doesn't matter, and the reaction almost doesn't matter, anywhere near as much as What is the function driving your behavior?

A lot of popular way to look at this is like, what's the story you're telling yourself, you know, is the story you're telling yourself, which is like, my grandfather was a piece of crap. My father is a piece of crap. I'm a piece of crap. And this is what we do. This is what the men in our family do. Well, where does that come from?

Why is a part of you feel that way? Why are you responding like that? Or, I have to drink because I can't confront this pain. Well, why? Because I can't handle it. Okay, well, let's figure out what that came from. Because the drive to drink, the drive to porn, like, those are not, those drives are not bad, right?

Like, it's literally your body trying to help you get through the day. And what needs to happen is healing needs to happen. Freedom needs to [00:35:00] emerge from that healing so that you can then turn to that part of you and it's like I know what you're doing. I know why you're doing it. Thank you. But I don't need you anymore.

I don't need you to do that for me anymore. I can do hard things or I'm going to break the pattern. I'm going to learn how to love. That was, again, a long winded answer, but So good. It's a complex question.

Joey: It is, you know, it's, I mean, we could do a whole episode on it. There's so much you said there. I love the acknowledgement that that behavior served some sort of a purpose.

Not to say it was good behavior, not justifying it, but it's like, Hey, you know, if porn was your way or alcohol or drugs or whatever was your way of dealing with the pain, it served some purpose. And so, but then saying, okay, I want to move beyond that. I no longer need that. I want to outgrow it. Cause I really think that's like, so key to dealing with any sort of pain and problems in our lives is like, we need to just outgrow that pain and that those problems in our lives.

And obviously heal as well. And so, so much good stuff. And I do think that's possible. And I [00:36:00] want to get into like kind of reprogramming. Um, but two other things, I'd love to hear your thoughts before we move on. One is just this whole idea that we are, each of us are living out a story. You know, you said kind of, you know, you know, what story are you essentially telling with your life?

And it's true, like each of us is living out a story. And I think when we think of Any movie or novel we've read, it's like the hero usually starts in some broken way or they're facing some big problem, right? That debilitates them or prevents them from getting what they want. Um, but then they go through a period of transformation and every story I've seen always happens with a form of a guide, like we've already talked about.

So I think there's something to be said there as well. Like what, what story are you living out now? And what story do you want to be living out? And then what's the transformation needs to occur in order for you to do that. And then the final thing on the sexualized pain, I was just going to comment on Jay Stringer has been on this podcast.

He wrote an awesome book called unwanted. I definitely recommend you guys check it out. If this is an area of interest talking about, you know, unwanted sexual behavior and things like that. Uh, he quotes Dr. Patrick Carnes. He's a leading expert on sexual [00:37:00] addiction. He said that 87 percent of people who struggle with the sexual addiction come from a broken family, which is profound.

Um, and so I love that you kind of hit on that point too, because I think this, this audience, people like me are dealing with these sorts of things or have dealt with it in the past. So I'd love to hear your comments and then switch over to how do we reprogram this? How do we transform?

Jack: Yeah, well, porn, addiction, alcohol.

Like, they're extremely destructive. I think the nuance that, that I was, the line that I'm trying to walk is like, the part of you that drove you to those outlets is not bad. Them as outlets is destructive. It's the, it's the whole, it's the old adage of like, hate the sin, love the sinner, right? It's like, hate the porn, love the part of you that wants to protect you.

When I work with clients in particular who are addicted to porn, sometimes you have to do, you know, who, who don't want to be addicted to porn, like, you have to do some temporary measures or some coping mechanisms to, to sort of break the cycle and break the habit. But in the long haul, when you heal the relationship, [00:38:00] the original relationship, the part where the pain emerged from, when you heal that dynamic, the great majority of the drive to porn is gone.

And it's really understanding that not all, but so much. of addiction can be, can be significantly healed if you heal the relationship or if you heal from the experience that really drove you to cope with the pain through this mechanism. So I, I definitely want to add that clarification. Essentially what you were saying was decide who to be and go be it and wanting to, wanting to break the cycle and the story that you tell yourself.

One of the biggest things for, for me personally, And, and one of the aspects of my work and, and as a parent, one of the things that I really strive because it's been so important for me to, to share with my kids is reclaiming what freedom you do have and reclaiming your responsibility for your own life.

I know we have a mutual love for Viktor Frankl, the founder of Logotherapy, and in his book, Man's Search for [00:39:00] Meaning, which is a, which is just top five favorite book of mine of all time, he talks about the last of human freedoms and this idea that regardless of anything else, What can never be taken from a human being is the ability to choose their attitude in a given circumstance.

The exception to that is, like, when you lose your mental faculties. So, so provided you have your mental faculties, you're not struggling from dementia or Alzheimer's or, let's say, multiple personality disorder. But if you're, if you have your mental faculties, there's literally no power on earth Not even God himself has given himself the power to force you to respond in a particular way and to claim that freedom that you do have.

Like people who've gone through significant trauma or significant suffering, it's like the first step is to acknowledge the pain and to acknowledge the storm that you're in or that you've gone through and to acknowledge its impact on you. But the second step, and arguably the most important one, is What are [00:40:00] you going to do about it?

You have the freedom to choose how you respond. Your attitude, your outlook, how you look at it. You know, the first four years of me being sick, like, I had a terrible attitude. Victim, impossibility. Bitterness, resentment, anger, you know, when things turned around, it was an attitude of possibility. Like, what can I control?

One of the great images of this is Jesus hugging his cross. You know, like when I didn't grow up with any particular faith, and I remember the first time I heard the story of Jesus hugging his cross and him willing to The suffering that was imposed upon him. It was like, that, that's it. That's it. That's what I want to do.

Like, that is the most noble thing a person can do, is regardless of their circumstances, regardless of what's being imposed on them, to choose to embrace it. Walk toward the storm and to extract as much meaning as they can from the experience so that they can go turn around and be something and [00:41:00] someone extraordinary for other people, right?

Like the story of Jesus from just a pure human perspective is I'm going to hug this cross. I'm going to brace it with everything that I have so that I can turn around and give abundant life to every other person on the planet, right? It's like, okay, you have the actual ability to transform your suffering.

Into something that blesses every other person that you meet for the rest of your life. Like, no one can decide whether or not that happens but you. And, and claiming that is, I think, that changed my life. And, and I think it changes anyone's life who's going through a particular struggle.

Joey: I think there's, there's such power in kind of looking beyond your own pain.

And there's this idea too, um, of like the helper's high. I, I'm learning about it recently, so I don't know a lot about it. But just how, like, there's research behind the fact that when you Look beyond your own pain and you help other people and the example I was reading was in like the context of like volunteering for some organization.

Let's say there's like literally documentable outcomes, benefits that come from [00:42:00] that. And so it takes this whole idea that like love is healing to like a whole new level because it literally is healing. And so I love that. That's beautiful. And I think that's like the right question to ask. Like, what now?

Like, what am I going to do with this hand? I've been dealt. What am I going to do with it? Because like you said, so many of us have been through you. Pain and trauma, you know, can fall into that victim mentality and just kind of stay stuck there. And what I've seen too in the people that I've walked with, as well as in my own life, is that so often I think our efforts at healing and growth can be become kind of fruitless.

Because of that, maybe hidden underneath the surface, like we're spinning our tires and mud and never really getting anywhere. And so we might be doing good things, like listening to podcasts, reading books, going on retreats, whatever. Because we want that transformation that we're talking about, we want to become that person.

But for some reason that gap is just not being closed as I'm curious, you know, you already mentioned a couple of things that I think are really helpful when it comes to that, but like, how do we actually transform, like what's worked in your life and what [00:43:00] advice do you give in terms of how do you actually transform and become that person that you want to be?

Jack: Yeah, we could do a whole podcast just on this exact question. Uh, yeah. And I'll talk about it from a, from a personal example, and maybe even just some, some work with some clients. Sure. I remember When I tried to start turning things around in my life, I was still in a lot of pain. And it was, you know, it was just, it was rough.

It was still in that rough period. And I remember my mom had a rough day and she, she left the house for whatever reason. She had to go run an errand or something. And I knew that she loved to end her day with tea and she was coming back late. And so I made her a cup of tea without her asking. And it was like, I don't know.

It's like she was four and realizing what Christmas is for the first time, you know, like it was that level of joy and appreciation like to this day, she will talk about that cup of tea that I made her and how and how impactful it was because she knew how much I was suffering that I thought of her, which she never really understood was how impactful that was for [00:44:00] me.

It's like I can do something good for someone else. I don't have to live in this cesspool that is my inner life and my inner thoughts and my own pain. I don't have to steep in this misery every second of every single day. I can actually do something small to bless someone. And so any proper answer on, on types of deep critical questions like the one you just asked has a both and component to it.

So it's like if you're in a rut. And you're feeling like crap and you are just miserable and you can't get out of bed in the morning, like, do something for somebody else, get on your feet, and that's enormously helpful, it's like I'm still a useful human being, you know, like I still have something to offer the world, that's a really useful thing to know, especially when you're in the dark part, then at the same time, Find a guide who is going to walk with you into the depths of the darkness of your own subconscious and your own inner life.

Find someone [00:45:00] who you trust who can help you. And go confront the inner demons. Like go do the inner work and not for you not because you know You're worth it and you're all these things even though you are but so that you can go out and actually bless other people One of the problems with modern therapy is it's like we'll just sit and talk about your feelings and sit in your own inner life And only talk about your inner life and never do anything with it.

It's like the purpose It's to become a self gift. Now, you might be sitting there being like, okay, I want to become a self gift. I want to do the inner work. I don't have anybody that I can go to. It's like, what do I do then? Well, there is something that you can do. If you look at the people who have achieved it.

Greatness in their life and they're all names. You're like, yeah, I've, yeah, I know that they've achieved greatness. Like you go mother Teresa, you go Gandhi, Alexander souls, a niche in like Abraham Lincoln. It's like you, you go to these people and you look at their life. They had a compelling vision of who they were trying to become.

So [00:46:00] let's just look at Gandhi. Gandhi's vision was to become like unto God. I want to become a man who made the invisible God visible. That's what Gandhi was trying to do. It's like, that's my objective. I have a compelling vision for my own personal character and the type of person that I want to be. I want to be God's hand and feet on earth.

That's my goal. That's my objective. And then he coupled to get that together with, I think there are the 11 vows of Gandhi. So I, I call this the moral code of being so it developed a moral code of being for him to be accountable to and for him to look every night and be like, okay, I'm trying to become this person.

These rules are actually capable of bringing out this vision to life. How am I doing on these rules? Right? Like system strive behavior. It's like those 11 vows were there. Gandhi's system that drove the behavior that led to the outcome, you know, if you're a business mind, you know, you're, you're thriving on this, right?

That led to the outcome that you're desiring, right? You start all the way, all the way [00:47:00] at the beginning. Now, you may sit in there and be like, becoming like unto God. That's really lofty. Well, look at someone like Alexander Solzhenitsyn. If you don't know Solzhenitsyn, he is credited with doing the majority of the work of taking down the Soviet Union from within the Soviet Union.

So Solzhenitsyn He was a political prisoner. He spent, I think he spent a decade in the gulags of Soviet Russia, which is hard labor in Siberia. And when he was in the prisons, in the gulag, suffering some of the worst suffering you can conceive of in humanity, it's top three, is the Soviet gulags, which still exists, by the way.

He's in this prison camp, eating this watered down soup and bread and doing hard labor in the frigid temperatures of Siberia. What he realizes is He has to own part of the blame for ending up where he ended up because he participated in the lies that led to communist Russia that allowed a system to be created for people like him to be imprisoned [00:48:00] without due process.

So he made a decision and this is really simple. He's like, I am going to become a man of truth. There will not be a single lie that will ever pass through me ever again. It's like a lack of truth. Created massive amounts of pain for me and everybody I'm in present with. So I'm going to become a man of truth.

So like, let's say you had a really, really mean dad, and the criticism that you feel, and just, the incapacity to do anything because you're just crippled by that constant criticism. It's like, okay, become the kindest person you possibly can. Don't let criticism flow out of your mouth. And then, that's the vision of who you want to be.

It's like, I want to be an incredibly kind person. Or, Jordan Peterson will say this, I want to be the kind of person everybody can rely on at my dad's funeral. Like, okay, that's a really noble vision. What's going to lead me there? And you don't have to pick the ultimate vision, you don't have to pick the ultimate thing.

Like, it's just start walking in the direction of a noble vision of who you could be, [00:49:00] and oftentimes that's enough to elevate your life.

Joey: It's still good. I love all of that. I love the vision component, finding a guide. And I love the idea that you just threw out that the guide doesn't need to be someone who is even alive right now.

If you're not ready for that, I think ultimately it is good to have someone who's mentoring you, is walking with you, who's able to like have real insight into your life. But yeah, we can learn, we can be guided through books, through podcasts, through whatever, um, just like you mentioned. And then, yeah, going back to Frankel, I just love that idea of, you know, Do something for someone else, do something for someone else.

Like, you know, as I know you would say, you know, Frankel essentially found that the thing that we want most as humans is, is meaning. And he defined meaning as like basically a deep reason to live that's bigger than yourself. And that's what I hear you saying. And his local therapy, which is essentially bringing people into, and feel free to add or correct anything I'm saying, but.

His logotherapy, which was essentially bringing people through that process of finding that compelling vision for the life and just finding a deep reason [00:50:00] to live that was bigger than themselves, was very effective. More effective than modern therapy, like you're saying. And, you know, he ran a clinic in Vienna.

Um, I know we've talked about this, Jack, but he ran a clinic in Vienna for, um, patients who were struggling with suicide. They wanted to kill themselves and it said that, you know, through local therapy, it was so effective that he never lost a single patient, which is so fascinating. And so, um, I think there is such power and, you know, while not neglecting yourself and your suffering, like we do need to heal, there is so much power and healing in that act of doing something for someone else and, and going beyond our own pain.

Jack: Yeah, I mean, I was one of the clients that I was working with who was sexually abused by a sibling and the client hadn't talked about it for 40 years and decided to talk about it. And a big reason why this individual didn't want to talk about it is because, like, I don't want to wallow in it. I just don't want to wallow in it.

I don't want to, I don't want to have to talk about it and all this stuff. But it was inhibiting this person's [00:51:00] ability to love, right? It was inhibiting their capacity to love. And so I, and be loved by other people. And I remember how much of an unburdening experience it was for this individual for me to be like, we're going to explore and enter deep into that experience of trauma so that you can draw meaning from it and that that meaning can can bring you to a place in your life in which you are better capable of To not only handle life, but be able to bring tremendous good to the rest of the world.

Like, there was this one woman that I knew near where I lived, I only met her twice. She went through incredibly difficult times. In the course of one year, she lost a child, she lost her husband, she lost both of her parents. And she had to take over the family farm. And she went through a process, internally, to draw so much meaning from it, that in the last 20 years of her life, she served at her local parish as the person that everyone would call, or not call, she would just show up.

in the [00:52:00] darkest moments of their life. So when a child died unexpectedly in the community, this woman, her Anita, Anita was her name, she would show up with pie. And oftentimes she was the only person who could sit in a room and help grieving parents make it through the day. She was oftentimes the only person who could walk into a room of someone who just lost a parent and help them feel understood and not alone in the world.

And so when she died, I mean, she was farm girl. Indiana, she did all the hidden things you do in a church, like clean the toilets and pick up the flyers on the floor and all the hidden stuff, turn the lights on, everything, nobody, you know, there's nothing visible about her. When she died, the entire county came out for a funeral.

Because at some point or another, they went through something difficult, and she showed up with Pi, and the kind of understanding that only comes from someone who drew meaning from their suffering. And it's like, the thing that she most wished never happened, has become her greatest gift to love people.

And that's [00:53:00] possible for literally anyone. Everyone, like literally everybody listening to this podcast right now, no matter the scale of the difficult thing that you've been through, it can become your superpower to love other people and to uplift other people. And the only person who gets to determine whether or not that's the case, like, is you.

It is you. 100%. It's you.

Joey: So good. I love it. And I, I think that that's a great place to end on. But before we do, I just want to ask about, um, yeah, I know you offer mentorship. So please tell us a bit about that. Like what it is that you offer and how people can find you online.

Jack: Yeah, absolutely. So you can, you can find me, you can find me in two places.

You can find me at Jack beers dot com or you can find me at the catholic mentor dot com. Jack beers dot com is a place for one on one, a group coaching. Uh, it's really meant for me to walk with you in, in a short season of your life, usually about six weeks. Uh, and I run people through a program called Rise, and it's really a system of self awareness and, and deepening your self awareness.

The [00:54:00] phrase I usually say is, um, know thyself so you can give thyself. So it's, it's sort of a six weeks program. six week boot camp with one on one coaching mixed into it, and you can find that in both sites in both places. If you're looking for specifically Catholic accompaniment, that's why you go to thecatholicmentor.

com, and that's a, that's a form of daily accompaniment, really an elevation of Catholic psychology. Spirituality and anthropology to help you kind of face the storms in your life and draw meaning from them

Joey: so good to truly be that guide. And man, I've learned a lot from you, even in this interview. So I can only imagine how helpful that mentorship would be.

And so I definitely encourage you guys to it. At least check that out, um, you'll learn more about it, get some information about what it would look like to, to work with Jack. Um, but Jack, just want to say, thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing your wisdom and your story with us. Um, I know we're all better for it.

And just in closing, just want to give you the final word, what final advice, encouragement would you leave to everyone [00:55:00] listening right now before we sign off?

Jack: Well, thank you, Joey. Uh, we've only gotten to know each other a little bit and I feel so blessed by you already. So I look forward to, to our relationship to deepen as well.

Joey: Likewise.

Jack: Last word is, uh, you can do hard things. You were made to do hard things, and you will become a shadow of who you could be if you don't.

Joey: There's so much that we discussed in this episode that it can be pretty easy to feel kind of overwhelmed by it all. And so my challenge to you is this, what's just one thing that really resonated with you in this conversation?

Just take action on that one thing today or this week. Make a simple plan to just act on that, whatever that looks like. Um, that's it. That's all you have to do. And so if you want to relisten to maybe figure out what the one thing is, feel free. But if you know it, just make a plan, take action on that one thing.

And I promise you, if you stay with it, you're going to get some results in your life. And if you come from a divorce or broken family, or, you know, someone who maybe does come from a divorce or broken family, We offer more [00:56:00] resources at Restore than just this podcast. Uh, those resources include things like a book, uh, free video courses.

They're free now. We might change that in the future. Um, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and built virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better. life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself, or maybe someone that, you know, just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken marriage, uh, feel free to share this podcast with them. Feel free to even text them now, uh, to say, Hey, you know, I listened to this.

I thought of you thought it might be helpful. I promise you, even if they don't maybe say it, they're going to be very grateful for you sharing it with them. I wish someone had done that for me years ago. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can [00:57:00] start where you are and change the ending. Joey: [00:00:00] At a young age, Jack was diagnosed with an incurable disease, and as you can imagine, it brought a lot of physical and emotional pain into his life. But, uh, through that suffering, through that experience, the lessons he learned, and the transformation that he experienced, led him to say this. The thing I wish most never happened, I am most grateful.

Four in this episode, we dive into that, but especially we talk about like what led up to that transformation and so much more like the bitterness and the loneliness that he felt going through all of that, uh, in the moment that transformed his disease from a description to a dare. Uh, we also hit on the lessons that he learned from his pain and how his life looks different.

Now, uh, he answers the question, how do we actually transform some, how do we transform in a way that actually lasts, that actually changes us into a better version of ourselves. We talked about our tendency to. We're going to re play the trauma that we've endured and what to do if you feel stuck. And finally, why we need mentors in our lives to guide us, to challenge us, but also to kind of point out our [00:01:00] blind spots.

So, if you or someone you know has struggled navigating, you know, pain and suffering in your life, You're not going to want to miss this episode. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation, or broken marriage. So you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 123.

We're so happy that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard numerous stories of people who've just been really helped by the podcast. One listener said this, I'm so thankful for finding this community. Your podcast couldn't have come at a better time. I literally found it only days after your first episode and it was so therapeutic and helpful.

It feels so good and sad, of course, to know that the feelings you have growing up in such an [00:02:00] environment are something others also can relate to. Earlier, I have been made to believe that my feelings are over the top and have been told, especially by my mom, that all people have problems and that the world still has to go on.

Now, I know that it is allowed to have unfinished emotions and that you can't just brush problems under a rug. I'd like that you encourage us to take steps to try to heal and deal with the wrongs from our past. Thank you for that. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out or eating healthier, perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans. It just didn't work for you. Then this is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds [00:03:00] Customize fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment. But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I want to mention three things.

One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped. Dude, he's also a good virtuous man, too. He's not just, you know, obsessed with the way that he looks. Uh, second thing is he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And through that experience and studying at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest of your, yourself, like your body.

Uh, we really need to care for it all so that we can become more virtuous and more free. Uh, to love. And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people, you know, look good on the beach or something like that. His mission is to really lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

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Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing transformations that his clients have achieved, just go to dakotalanefitness. com, dakotalanefitness. com, or just click on the link in the show notes. Uh, by the way, this is the last time that you'll hear about Dakota Lane Fitness.

So if you're on the fence, you know, maybe you've heard this before and like, man, I would like to check that out. I recommend just doing three really simple things. A one, just go to his website, click on the show notes, go to dakotalanefitness. com, just, just go to the website. Once you're on there, he has a transformations page at this recording as his transformation.

And you'll see kind of a mix of before and after pictures as well as testimonials from, from his clients just to see how Dakota has helped other [00:05:00] people. And then finally, if you want to take another step in that direction, you can schedule a free console. Just click on the, the contact button on his website and you can fill out a form to just schedule a free consult with him and you can just get a little bit more information about what it might look like, the pricing and everything, uh, of working with Dakota.

And again, You have nothing to lose, uh, just a little bit of time and effort, but, um, I'm sure it will, I'm sure it will help you. And so I definitely recommend checking him out again, go ahead and click on the link in the show notes or go to Dakota lane fitness. com, uh, to make use of all that. My guest today is Jack Beers.

Jack is the founder and leader of the Catholic Mentor. On top of over a decade in ministry as a speaker and leader, Jack is a certified mentor through the Catholic Psych Institute. He is trained to accompany individuals Through the storms of life by an integration, sound, uh, psychology and authentic Catholic anthropology.

It's kind of big words, but we'll break into those in this episode. Um, the certification was developed and led by Dr. Gregory Bataro. Uh, Jack lives in [00:06:00] Cincinnati with his wife and their two children. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Jack. Jack, so good to have you. Welcome.

Jack: Great to be here with you, Joey.

Thanks for having me.

Joey: Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you. Um, I have to ask kind of the obvious question, given your last name, do you like beer? Do you drink beer?

Jack: Yeah. So I usually, when people ask me, oh, your name is Jack Beers, you know, like, uh, that's awesome. What a great name. I'll usually be like, you know, my middle name is Daniels.

With an S, you know, I'm very Irish, you know, I have Irish parents, you know, it's not, you know, but if people get really pumped by it, I mean, I literally have a memory of being 10 and having being in a baseball field and having high schoolers come to you be like, wow, one day you're going to have some great parties, man.

Could be awesome. And, uh, and I'm an irony. I can't drink beer. So I, it's just a walking irony. Look at people. I want to drink beer with this guy. Well, like, I can't if you want to [00:07:00] Jameson on the rocks, you know, we could do that together, but you know, I'm not, I'm not going to fulfill your lifelong fantasy of, of watching someone with the last name of beers, you know, drain a beer or whatever.

Joey: I love the Jack Daniels joke. That's what's legend good stuff, man. Well, yeah,

Jack: yeah.

Joey: Shift into more serious items. I, um, I know, you know, a lot of people listening right now have endured a lot of pain, a lot of suffering because of their parents divorce, the breakdown of their family and everything that comes along with that.

And so while that might not be specifically part of your story, I know you have suffered. How's about that?

Jack: That's quite the transition. Um, yeah, I, I'm so grateful to be able to go deep here with you. Um, suffering has been a huge part of my life and it's been, uh, I think Tolkien said this. He's like the thing for which I wish most never happened.

I am most grateful for. He said and I, I very much come to a place of that. Where the things that I wish most never happened to me are the things in which [00:08:00] I'm most grateful for at the same time. And it took a long time to get there. It took a lot of work to get there. But I, I do like to frame the idea of suffering.

Like, I know that people have suffered more than me. And I know that the suffering that, that I have is, um, you know, relatively speaking is what it is. But, but it is still real. And it is still. Difficult and challenging. Anyway, so to the details of it, uh, when I was 11, I've always been like this. I've always been like tall and lanky and like a strong breeze could blow me over.

So I've never been, you know, I've never been necessarily robust physically. And when I was 11, I lost 15 pounds in 10 days. And I had a shortcut, and, you know, I looked like I was dying. I looked like I was a cancer patient. You could see my ribs and all this stuff. And it turned out that I had something called Crohn's disease, which is a, which is a chronic illness.

And, and this is like 2001. There's no [00:09:00] gluten free anything anywhere that's not like celiac. It's just known by people. It's like no one in my circle had ever heard of Crohn's disease, unless they're part of the medical community. And so we, my parents and I, like, we had. I have no idea what's happening.

It's like you lose, you know, 15 pounds in 10 days. And now you have this thing, it's called Crohn. And I remember I was, I'm 11, I have a fever and Crohn's can manifest itself in all different kinds of ways. And, and for me, I had like an exterior abscess and I, and I, so like it was painful, like I couldn't walk from 15 feet from my room to the bathroom.

I couldn't physically do it. It would just, it was too painful. So. For me to do just like hurt too much, uh, to move. So I'm like sitting in this doctor's office, I'm 11 and I have a fever. It's like one Oh two, one Oh three. And it's just constant. Like I can't move. I'm in a lot of pain. I just found out I have Crohn's disease.

And this doctor's like, okay, you're in a great spot. You know, I'm the best [00:10:00] doctor in the East coast for this. I have access to the best medication in the world. And I can get you down to three hospital stays a year, every year for the rest of your life. And my parents were just like, what? Yeah. Three hospital stays a year every year for the rest of his life.

Like, what is, what does that mean? What is his life going to look like? And this doctor straight up just went, you're going to have, you're not going to be taller than five foot two. You're not going to be able to hold down a job. You won't be able to go away to college. Like you, you need to understand something.

Like your son is now disabled. That's what it is. And I was like, I mean, I'm 11, but you're, even at 11, right? Like, you're conscious of what's happening. I'm aware of what this guy is saying. And I remember my mom looking at me and being like, that will not be your life. Like, whatever that man said, like, throw it out of your mind.

Like, that will not be your life. But I You know, I kind of believe the doctors, more of a, I believe my mom there. And so through the first four years of me having Crohn's disease, I missed over 250 days of school. I barely grew. I mean, [00:11:00] everything but the number of hospital stays was kind of coming through, coming to fruition from, from what the doctor shared over the course of the first four years.

And it was, yeah, it was awful. It was awful.

Joey: No, I can't imagine just being in your shoes and, you know, up to that point, it sounded like life was more or less normal. You know, you were, Growing and yeah, just things in life kind of looked like you'd expect for someone at that age. And then all of a sudden it just completely turns on its head, like how difficult.

And one of the questions just in preparing for this interview that I was thinking through, it's like the lessons that were, you know, kind of baked into that experience. And so I'd love to tend to tease that out because I really am a firm believer that like you said, with the token quote, there's All these like really difficult, painful things we go through in life, but my goodness, it can like warm us.

It can transform us. It can like teach us so, so much. So yeah, what lessons did you learn through this whole experience?

Jack: Yeah, well, you know, I'd probably go on for a long time on this one, but yeah, so I, like I said, the first four years were really, you know, they were brutal. I remember watching the Red [00:12:00] Sox come back and beat the Yankees and I'm a huge New York Mets fan, so I was happily rooting for that.

And just. It was when that happened, when Big Poppy was, you know, breaking his bat and hitting a base hit over second to win the game in extras, or hitting his home run to win the game in extras, or Johnny Damon's hitting a grand slam to just, Absolutely wrecked the Yanks in game seven. Like that was, that was probably the peak worst period for me.

Like I was watching that semi and I mean, it was, and by worse, I mean, like pain wise, like I was literally, it felt like my body was on fire. Like I could remember watching that game and just. Being on fire. And so I really feel like there were three levels of pain for me over the course of those first four years and the first two I was really cognizant of because they were obvious.

The first one was the physical pain, right? Like it just You're just suffering like I'm just sitting there suffering like can't play baseball. I'm extracted from social life It's just [00:13:00] physically difficult to get around and be around and move. So there's the physical pain The next one is is the emotional pain and the emotional suffering.

So when I first got sick, I got all this attention Letters and notes and gifts and presents and everything along those lines and then pretty much out of sight out of mind Everybody else abandoned me. It was sort of isolated I had my parents and I had my twin sister who and my grandmother who really cared everybody else aunts and uncles other Grandparents people I thought were friends It's like I didn't exist and I sort of been wiped off the face of the planet and it was very lonely You And I got bitter as all getup.

I was, um, I don't know if you've ever seen It's a Wonderful Life, but there's this, uh, there's this famous moment where sort of the evil character is like, you once called me a warped, frustrated old man. What are you but a warped, frustrated young man? And that's, that was me. I'm like 14 [00:14:00] years old, warped, frustrated.

Bitter, resentful of being abandoned, resentful of having to suffer, resentful of, you know, just very frustrated and angry over, you know, in being imprisoned by this physical limitation. But the thing was, is like, I didn't, I didn't necessarily have to be. My parents had found a different doctor and this really intense food regimen.

It's called a specific carbohydrate diet and we found a way for it to work for me, but it was like I could have like 12 items of food that includes like spices. Wow. So, I mean, I counted once it was like 12 or 17. I don't remember what one. So, like, I would go when I go to school, right? And it would be like, you know, you're in 6th grade and it's an ice cream party, like looking at kids eating a Sunday and I'm eating an overly ripe banana.

You know, it's like. Yeah. That sucks. You know, you go to the Super Bowl party and everybody's eating pizza and I'm eating dry, lightly salted chicken and lettuce with no salad dressing. You know, it's like, that sucks. [00:15:00] But it had the potential to work. Like, we'd seen flashes and it worked, uh, at different, at different periods.

I would go through two or three months where I would be super healthy. And then, and then it would be back down. Anyway, so there was, I, I had this physical pain and this emotional pain and this emotional bitterness, but I also had this tool, this, this food regimen that was at my disposal that could help me get healthy.

And when I was 14, I was sitting in my room and my mom came into my room and she had two presents for me. And at that time, I was, it was shortly after the Red Sox had won the World Series and I had to be homeschooled the whole year because it physically, it was, it was that bad. And so I was, I was pretty down, pretty emotionally frustrated and all that stuff.

And my mom, she just comes into my room and she's got two gifts for me. And the first gift is a, a wall sized poster of Muhammad Ali. And at that time, Adidas was running this ad campaign that said impossible is nothing. And so it was Muhammad Ali standing over Sonny [00:16:00] Liston, yelling at him to get up and fight him like a real man, about to become heavyweight champion of the world.

And then on the bottom, it says impossible is nothing. And my mom, she just absolutely calls me out. And, and she's like, I've been trying to will you to health. I've been trying to will you to put your mind and your heart and your everything into getting healthy, but you're sitting on the sidelines, you're not engaged, you're going through the motions, and the truth is, you can take incurable as a declaration, or you could take it as a dare, a dare to rise to the occasion of your life.

So she shows me the poster, and she's like, Muhammad Ali said, impossible is just a made up word. Impossible is nothing. Impossible is a dare. And she, so she goes through this whole quote of, of Muhammad Ali. She's like, apply that to incurable. Incurable is just a word. It's nothing. It's a dare. It's not a declaration.

It's a dare. And it's life daring you to rise to the occasion of it, to grow from it, to embrace it. So she hands me the second gift [00:17:00] and it's, um, it's a dog tag. And on the dog tag, it says, Incurable is not a declaration. It's a dare. And, and she's like, I'll continue to do everything I can to help you get healthy, but you never will until you, until you get in the game.

So get in the game and, uh, yeah, so she absolutely called me out and one of the most inspiring moments of my entire life and I decided to, to take her up on it. I decided to take to the dare. I decided to, um, as, uh, Robert Downey jr would say, uh, hug the cactus. I decided to confront the inner self and turn toward the inner storm, and nothing changed about my exterior life, man.

Like, nothing changed. The diet didn't change. My school didn't change. My family didn't change. Nothing about my external life changed. Nothing about my external environment changed. First four years, I missed 250 days of school. The next eight years through college, um, I missed less than 10. I grew to [00:18:00] be six feet tall.

I went away to school. I was, for all intents and purposes, you couldn't tell that I had a chronic illness and what made the difference was doing the inner work and the original question is a really long answer to it. But the original question is like, what's one of the life lessons that you learned? And so I just, I go to the, I go to the biggest one, which is you got to confront the dragon within.

All the crap that was happening inside of me, that I was bottling up, that I was pushing down, that I was ignoring, that I refused to confront, the anger, the bitterness, the frustration, the the sense that this was unfair, I have three sister I have two sisters, like, why did I get it? One of them's a twin, why did I get it?

Everybody else gets to live a normal life, why do I have to sit over here and eat this disgusting food and in order to just be normal and then confront a lot of the bitterness and the pain of other people and being abandoned and not walking around so angry all of the time at everyone. That was the lesson.

Like I got to turn toward the storm. I can't [00:19:00] run away from it. I have to turn toward it. I have to embrace it more than anything.

Joey: Wow. What a story. I so much. I want to say one of the things that you just brought to mind was this whole battle with ourselves, right? I think that so often I know in my life, it's myself has been like the scariest person to face.

And, and it's just fascinating. So I love your insight on that. Like, why is that such a scary thing? Why do, and why do we avoid it so much? Like, why do we run in the opposite direction? It seems like we'd almost, you know, be more willing to face like these Insurmountable like enemies on the outside than just look interiorly and face ourselves.

Jack: It's a great question. I think one of one of the reasons is that every spiritual master, every master of the inner life has essentially said, if you want to dive deep and look at yourself, you have to do it. with someone else. Like, you cannot do it alone. It's not like a David and Goliath situation where you're out, and you're looking at this big Goliath, and you're like, okay, well, [00:20:00] what weapons do I have?

You know, like, I'll just, I'll just fight, or I'll learn, I'll be trained how to fight, and then I'll just, like, go fight. Like, the inner world, because of the natural inclination of the emotional life and the inner life to protect ourselves and to deceive ourselves, it can be so hard to unravel. And really understand it, and you actually need someone else to reflect you back to you, to really be able to understand you.

So part of it is just practical, like, you can't really do it alone. And, and none of the, the masters of the inner world, and we could be talking about Buddha, we could be talking about St. Francis de Sales, we could be talking about modern mindfulness practitioners, you know, like, Everybody talks about having a guide to help you enter into the inner life, make sense of what's going on.

One of the things that that has really become true and, and that we've developed a deeper understanding about from a psychological perspective is that, is that we're, we're made up [00:21:00] of a bunch of inner parts and multiple personality disorder is a disorder of something that is actually natural and good within us, which is when something happens, like we win the lottery.

Multiple parts of us react to the same thing. One of the simplest examples of it, it would be like, not the lottery, but like, if you're gonna go play a game, and part of you is excited, but part of you is nervous, right, like you feel both emotions at the same time. It's because there's literally a part of you that feels the nerves, and a part of you that is excited.

Like, I love baseball, I would always be nervous, because I was afraid, there's a part of me that was always afraid of failing. And then I would also be really excited because there's a part of me that loves baseball, that loves to play the game, right? So you go to get married, and there's a part of you that loves your spouse.

But there's another part of you that has, comes from a broken home, and it's that arrested development part. It's that 10 year old sitting in your parents living room, like, hearing that your parents are getting divorced. That is [00:22:00] also reacting to this idea of getting married. That's like marriage is a sham.

You know, you're only going to hurt people. It's not real. Like that part of you is until that part of you is healed. Like you can't, you can't contain that part of you from reacting and for you to make sense of all of those different parts and how they interact with one another is not something for someone to do by themself.

Like you need to be able to do it with with the help of somebody else.

Joey: So good. One of the principles that we operate on is that healing happens in relationships.

Jack: Yeah.

Joey: Healing happens in, in relationship and it's exactly for the reason you said. And yeah, no, so good. And I think the other thing that comes to mind when you say all that is the idea of blind spots.

I think you articulated that really well that there's literally things that you can't see or access or, you know, Work through on your own and there's different, you know, parts of this, like, since we're using the sports analogy, it's like, you know, I was a baseball player as well through the years and play with some incredible guys.

I was never like at the D one level, but I play with guys who [00:23:00] D one got drafted, all that stuff. And, uh, you know, whether it was them or me, someone, you know, not as skilled, there were certain parts of my swing or, you know, feeling or whatever that maybe I was doing wrong that I couldn't. Yeah. See or know until a coach came up to me and said, Hey, the way you're fielding that ball, like try this, you know, try picking it or funneling it this way, try, you know, the way you're swinging, like loosen your hands a little bit more, drop your elbow, all of that.

And I went through coaching like that and it's amazing, like the transformation you could see, but I could have, honestly, Jack, I could have spent like a year trying to like critique my own swing and I probably would have missed a lot of that.

Jack: Yeah. So I

Joey: think it's, it's so profound. Like you have a coach, a guide, um, in your life who's able to kind of point out those blind spots and then give you a bit of a plan to work through that.

Jack: Yes. I, one of the most amazing things is actually, it's not the most masculine thing in the world, but it's art. Art is some of the best. It contains some of some of the best tools to elicit sort of hidden exiles within you. Um, I was working with [00:24:00] with one of my clients and I know we'll talk about what I do at some point, but it's working with one of them.

And really discovered that he was having some trouble in his marriage and that one of his main pain points that he couldn't get past was actually something that happened to him when he was pre verbal, so like he couldn't communicate. So he couldn't share with me what was really happening or what was really driving, um, this behavior that was causing a lot of conflict in his marriage.

And so I, I asked him to draw himself in conflict with his wife. Just draw your image of what's happening. And what he drew unlocked so much of what was happening, because the content almost didn't matter, like, what happened to him didn't matter. What happened was how he felt in that context, and how it keeps getting duplicated over and over and over again in different contexts, right?

He keeps having the same emotional reaction regardless of the content, because there's a part of him that keeps emerging. So he could never [00:25:00] see that part, understand that part, speak to that part. Until I was sort of able to help draw that out of him through the art of drawing, which is an amazing thing, but you know, you're never going to think of that on your own, right?

You're never going to come to that on your own. It's like, how am I going to break this pattern in my life? How am I going to trust people again? How am I going to do, how can I possibly believe that love is worth it or that setting myself up to be hurt again is worth it? It's like, well, you have to talk to that part of you that thinks it's not worth it and you have to understand it.

And and understand the role it's playing in your life and know that that part of you is good. It just doesn't want you to get hurt. It's not helping you right now, but it's still good. It doesn't. It desires your good. So how do we how do we engage with that part of you and understand it? And it's you cannot do that alone.

Joey: You can't. No, it's so good. And I love men. What a great example on how helpful. Sit to that, you know, client of yours, my goodness. I'm sure you know this, but that's like what therapists will do. I know you're not a therapist and you weren't trying to give [00:26:00] therapy, but that's what therapists will do in trauma therapy.

I've been through it myself. And like the use of art therapy is so important because my understanding of it, one theory of like the brain is that we have One side of our brain is more emotional, and the other side of our brain is more logical. And the logical side of our brain is the part of our brain that controls language, and, you know, math, and things like that.

The emotional side of our brain is more controlling, you know, reaction, and like, if we're in danger, then it will, you know, kind of take control. And literally, when you go through something traumatic, The logical part of your brain actually constricts, it chemically constricts, it gets smaller, the emotional side gets bigger so that you can react and save your life, right?

Think of, you know, extreme examples of a tiger chasing you or other examples, like, you know, we're talking about your parents getting divorced. And so. So the pre verbal thing that happened with that client is so interesting to me because that is similar even with people who are post verbal, who can, you know, speak and things, they might not even be able to articulate what they had been through because the place where the trauma is encoded is in that emotional side of their brain.

And so the [00:27:00] art therapy side of it can help people go beyond the language. And one other thing that I think is just so fascinating that I loved learning, I want to share with everyone listening is. Um, there's a part of our brain, I think it's called Broca's area, if I'm getting that right. And, uh, and that part of our brain, um, does play a role in like controlling language, helping us put things to words.

And that part of our brain will actually go offline when we've endured a trauma, or maybe more contextual to that sort of trauma when things are triggered. Um, which is so fascinating. So no, I just love, I couldn't help but share that because I think it's so helpful. And especially if people are, you know, experiencing this right now, maybe they've been through some traumatic, their family falling apart, their parents getting divorced, whatever.

And, you know, they are like struggling to like put it into words. It's like, well, there you go. There's some of the science of it. Maybe not perfectly articulated, but, um, it's certainly, certainly helpful.

Jack: Yeah, and and the other thing is because you can't this is one of the things that I learned about myself as well It's like because you can't articulate it because you're not exactly sure what's happening You will actually try and replay [00:28:00] your trauma in other Contexts across time in an attempt to try and win right like our brain categorizes it as a loss Something happened and we got hurt And we want to replay the circumstances again across time and across other relationships so that we can win and avoid that hurt.

So like for me, right, like I, I get sick and I perceive people all over the place as abandoning me. So in my mind, I'm not conscious of this, but in my mind, like when you get close to people who don't have to love you, like mom and dad, like they will burn you. So, what did I start doing? I started burning those relationships before they had a chance to burn me.

So, it keeps happening over and over again, where relationships end prematurely, or I make sure I'm the one who breaks up with the girl, whether or not I have a good reason. Um, it's like, what's happening there? Why is that pattern repeating itself? Well, it's because I don't want to have the same thing happen again.

[00:29:00] I don't want to get so vulnerable to the, I don't want to go vulnerable past the point of knowing that I'm going to get hurt to a similar degree as this other circumstance, so I'm going to cut this relationship off, so that doesn't happen, so I don't have to trust you, so I don't have to be vulnerable with you, so I don't have to be in a relationship with you, and so I just had really superficial relationships for a really long period of time, and it was, And it was specifically because I was replaying that trauma.

I'm going to end this before you have a chance to end it with me. So good.

Joey: I love that language that you put to that, like how we're replaying the trauma. I've heard people talk about it in other ways, but that, like, for some reason really sticks well with me, how we're attempting to turn a loss into a win.

Super good. I think the other side of that coin too, that people have heard, maybe I'll talk about in the show is this idea of like repetition compulsion, how we might end up repeating behavior that harmed us or we despise. Yes. And it was just so, so interesting, fascinating and such a big pain point, by the way, Jack, for people like us, [00:30:00] who like me, who come from broken families, because we saw something that was very broken and painful.

And we went through that ourselves with our parents marriage falling apart or whatever dysfunction at home. And we're like terrified of repeating that in our own lives, especially if there were extreme things like infidelity or whatever. Um, and so that that's like a major concern. So this whole idea of repetition, compulsion, and trying to avoid that is just like such a big, Concern, even if it's something that's not like this conscious, it's somewhere, you know, in our subconscious often pulling at us.

So I'm curious to your like insights or advice on that side of the coin of kind of this fear of going down this path that we really don't want to go on.

Jack: Yeah, well, so there's so many different things that could happen. So my dad, my dad's parents got divorced, um, my grandfather was, was unfaithful, and it was just an absolute abject mess of a home, right?

So my dad decided he was gonna be the exact opposite of his dad, right? Like, that was his, that was his reaction, that was his play. And he was gonna go to the, the [00:31:00] extreme other side. So you can do that. Other people don't want to hurt anybody else, so they'll, so they'll isolate, or they'll, Depending on when divorce happens, you know, if it happens in the preteen years, let's say 13, 14, one of the most natural things to do is to sexualize your pain because you have a sexual awakening.

And so you start sexualizing your pain, whether that be creating fantasies or scenarios in which you're in complete control. So like porn is a big, can be a big challenge for people coming out of divorce because One of the, one of the things that porn does for a person is it puts you entirely in control of your whole scenario and of your entire environment and people who come from broken families, it's like, you're not in control of your dad, you're not in control of your mom, you're not in control of where you live, you're not in control of whose house maybe you're going to be in, you're not in control of how you're spoken to, whether dad keeps crapping on mom or mom keeps crapping on dad, like you're not in control of it.

Anything. And so you're looking to have some form of control. So [00:32:00] you turn to something that you can control or, you know, you want to numb, right? So what's one of the biggest things that can happen for people who deal with a lot of pain is that they don't want to feel what they're feeling anymore. So they'll, they'll drink excessively or they'll, or they'll smoke weed and get high.

It's like when things get too difficult, you know, you smoke weed and you can get high or you become a self fulfilling prophecy. Right? You start, you start doing the things that you hate were done to you. And that part is like, this happens all the time with parents. So you become a parent, and all of a sudden you're like, Oh my gosh, that was my dad speaking.

Right? That wasn't me. And they have this realization. They're like, Oh crap, I'm turning into my mom. And it's like, you're not turning into your mom. You're not turning into your dad. It's literally the only context you have for parenthood. Right? So it's like, I want to go into a relationship. Okay, what's your only context for romance?

You have a tendency to then duplicate that over time, [00:33:00] because it's like, I don't know what to do. When a woman comes to me, let's say I'm a man, and my parents got divorced, and a woman comes to me, and she's emotionally needy. And I only ever saw my dad say to my mom, like, shut up and get me a beer, or like, Shut up and make dinner and now I have a girlfriend who's crying excessively and it doesn't make any sense to my male Logical emotional brain and my only context is shut up and deal with it and serve me It's like what are you gonna do in that moment?

For a number of people, the response is, I'm going to do some form of what I saw, because I'm just, I'm just reacting. I'm not thinking about it. And so I, I do it, especially, especially if you idolize that parent in particular, and part of the divorce was, was a shattering of the character, of the person who you really loved.

Then it's even more complicated because you're wanting to imitate someone, and there's a part of you that always wanted to imitate this person that [00:34:00] you idealized, and now the idealization is shattered, and you're, you're not sure what to do with that. Anyway, all of that, across all of these contexts, the content almost doesn't matter, and the reaction almost doesn't matter, anywhere near as much as What is the function driving your behavior?

A lot of popular way to look at this is like, what's the story you're telling yourself, you know, is the story you're telling yourself, which is like, my grandfather was a piece of crap. My father is a piece of crap. I'm a piece of crap. And this is what we do. This is what the men in our family do. Well, where does that come from?

Why is a part of you feel that way? Why are you responding like that? Or, I have to drink because I can't confront this pain. Well, why? Because I can't handle it. Okay, well, let's figure out what that came from. Because the drive to drink, the drive to porn, like, those are not, those drives are not bad, right?

Like, it's literally your body trying to help you get through the day. And what needs to happen is healing needs to happen. Freedom needs to [00:35:00] emerge from that healing so that you can then turn to that part of you and it's like I know what you're doing. I know why you're doing it. Thank you. But I don't need you anymore.

I don't need you to do that for me anymore. I can do hard things or I'm going to break the pattern. I'm going to learn how to love. That was, again, a long winded answer, but So good. It's a complex question.

Joey: It is, you know, it's, I mean, we could do a whole episode on it. There's so much you said there. I love the acknowledgement that that behavior served some sort of a purpose.

Not to say it was good behavior, not justifying it, but it's like, Hey, you know, if porn was your way or alcohol or drugs or whatever was your way of dealing with the pain, it served some purpose. And so, but then saying, okay, I want to move beyond that. I no longer need that. I want to outgrow it. Cause I really think that's like, so key to dealing with any sort of pain and problems in our lives is like, we need to just outgrow that pain and that those problems in our lives.

And obviously heal as well. And so, so much good stuff. And I do think that's possible. And I [00:36:00] want to get into like kind of reprogramming. Um, but two other things, I'd love to hear your thoughts before we move on. One is just this whole idea that we are, each of us are living out a story. You know, you said kind of, you know, you know, what story are you essentially telling with your life?

And it's true, like each of us is living out a story. And I think when we think of Any movie or novel we've read, it's like the hero usually starts in some broken way or they're facing some big problem, right? That debilitates them or prevents them from getting what they want. Um, but then they go through a period of transformation and every story I've seen always happens with a form of a guide, like we've already talked about.

So I think there's something to be said there as well. Like what, what story are you living out now? And what story do you want to be living out? And then what's the transformation needs to occur in order for you to do that. And then the final thing on the sexualized pain, I was just going to comment on Jay Stringer has been on this podcast.

He wrote an awesome book called unwanted. I definitely recommend you guys check it out. If this is an area of interest talking about, you know, unwanted sexual behavior and things like that. Uh, he quotes Dr. Patrick Carnes. He's a leading expert on sexual [00:37:00] addiction. He said that 87 percent of people who struggle with the sexual addiction come from a broken family, which is profound.

Um, and so I love that you kind of hit on that point too, because I think this, this audience, people like me are dealing with these sorts of things or have dealt with it in the past. So I'd love to hear your comments and then switch over to how do we reprogram this? How do we transform?

Jack: Yeah, well, porn, addiction, alcohol.

Like, they're extremely destructive. I think the nuance that, that I was, the line that I'm trying to walk is like, the part of you that drove you to those outlets is not bad. Them as outlets is destructive. It's the, it's the whole, it's the old adage of like, hate the sin, love the sinner, right? It's like, hate the porn, love the part of you that wants to protect you.

When I work with clients in particular who are addicted to porn, sometimes you have to do, you know, who, who don't want to be addicted to porn, like, you have to do some temporary measures or some coping mechanisms to, to sort of break the cycle and break the habit. But in the long haul, when you heal the relationship, [00:38:00] the original relationship, the part where the pain emerged from, when you heal that dynamic, the great majority of the drive to porn is gone.

And it's really understanding that not all, but so much. of addiction can be, can be significantly healed if you heal the relationship or if you heal from the experience that really drove you to cope with the pain through this mechanism. So I, I definitely want to add that clarification. Essentially what you were saying was decide who to be and go be it and wanting to, wanting to break the cycle and the story that you tell yourself.

One of the biggest things for, for me personally, And, and one of the aspects of my work and, and as a parent, one of the things that I really strive because it's been so important for me to, to share with my kids is reclaiming what freedom you do have and reclaiming your responsibility for your own life.

I know we have a mutual love for Viktor Frankl, the founder of Logotherapy, and in his book, Man's Search for [00:39:00] Meaning, which is a, which is just top five favorite book of mine of all time, he talks about the last of human freedoms and this idea that regardless of anything else, What can never be taken from a human being is the ability to choose their attitude in a given circumstance.

The exception to that is, like, when you lose your mental faculties. So, so provided you have your mental faculties, you're not struggling from dementia or Alzheimer's or, let's say, multiple personality disorder. But if you're, if you have your mental faculties, there's literally no power on earth Not even God himself has given himself the power to force you to respond in a particular way and to claim that freedom that you do have.

Like people who've gone through significant trauma or significant suffering, it's like the first step is to acknowledge the pain and to acknowledge the storm that you're in or that you've gone through and to acknowledge its impact on you. But the second step, and arguably the most important one, is What are [00:40:00] you going to do about it?

You have the freedom to choose how you respond. Your attitude, your outlook, how you look at it. You know, the first four years of me being sick, like, I had a terrible attitude. Victim, impossibility. Bitterness, resentment, anger, you know, when things turned around, it was an attitude of possibility. Like, what can I control?

One of the great images of this is Jesus hugging his cross. You know, like when I didn't grow up with any particular faith, and I remember the first time I heard the story of Jesus hugging his cross and him willing to The suffering that was imposed upon him. It was like, that, that's it. That's it. That's what I want to do.

Like, that is the most noble thing a person can do, is regardless of their circumstances, regardless of what's being imposed on them, to choose to embrace it. Walk toward the storm and to extract as much meaning as they can from the experience so that they can go turn around and be something and [00:41:00] someone extraordinary for other people, right?

Like the story of Jesus from just a pure human perspective is I'm going to hug this cross. I'm going to brace it with everything that I have so that I can turn around and give abundant life to every other person on the planet, right? It's like, okay, you have the actual ability to transform your suffering.

Into something that blesses every other person that you meet for the rest of your life. Like, no one can decide whether or not that happens but you. And, and claiming that is, I think, that changed my life. And, and I think it changes anyone's life who's going through a particular struggle.

Joey: I think there's, there's such power in kind of looking beyond your own pain.

And there's this idea too, um, of like the helper's high. I, I'm learning about it recently, so I don't know a lot about it. But just how, like, there's research behind the fact that when you Look beyond your own pain and you help other people and the example I was reading was in like the context of like volunteering for some organization.

Let's say there's like literally documentable outcomes, benefits that come from [00:42:00] that. And so it takes this whole idea that like love is healing to like a whole new level because it literally is healing. And so I love that. That's beautiful. And I think that's like the right question to ask. Like, what now?

Like, what am I going to do with this hand? I've been dealt. What am I going to do with it? Because like you said, so many of us have been through you. Pain and trauma, you know, can fall into that victim mentality and just kind of stay stuck there. And what I've seen too in the people that I've walked with, as well as in my own life, is that so often I think our efforts at healing and growth can be become kind of fruitless.

Because of that, maybe hidden underneath the surface, like we're spinning our tires and mud and never really getting anywhere. And so we might be doing good things, like listening to podcasts, reading books, going on retreats, whatever. Because we want that transformation that we're talking about, we want to become that person.

But for some reason that gap is just not being closed as I'm curious, you know, you already mentioned a couple of things that I think are really helpful when it comes to that, but like, how do we actually transform, like what's worked in your life and what [00:43:00] advice do you give in terms of how do you actually transform and become that person that you want to be?

Jack: Yeah, we could do a whole podcast just on this exact question. Uh, yeah. And I'll talk about it from a, from a personal example, and maybe even just some, some work with some clients. Sure. I remember When I tried to start turning things around in my life, I was still in a lot of pain. And it was, you know, it was just, it was rough.

It was still in that rough period. And I remember my mom had a rough day and she, she left the house for whatever reason. She had to go run an errand or something. And I knew that she loved to end her day with tea and she was coming back late. And so I made her a cup of tea without her asking. And it was like, I don't know.

It's like she was four and realizing what Christmas is for the first time, you know, like it was that level of joy and appreciation like to this day, she will talk about that cup of tea that I made her and how and how impactful it was because she knew how much I was suffering that I thought of her, which she never really understood was how impactful that was for [00:44:00] me.

It's like I can do something good for someone else. I don't have to live in this cesspool that is my inner life and my inner thoughts and my own pain. I don't have to steep in this misery every second of every single day. I can actually do something small to bless someone. And so any proper answer on, on types of deep critical questions like the one you just asked has a both and component to it.

So it's like if you're in a rut. And you're feeling like crap and you are just miserable and you can't get out of bed in the morning, like, do something for somebody else, get on your feet, and that's enormously helpful, it's like I'm still a useful human being, you know, like I still have something to offer the world, that's a really useful thing to know, especially when you're in the dark part, then at the same time, Find a guide who is going to walk with you into the depths of the darkness of your own subconscious and your own inner life.

Find someone [00:45:00] who you trust who can help you. And go confront the inner demons. Like go do the inner work and not for you not because you know You're worth it and you're all these things even though you are but so that you can go out and actually bless other people One of the problems with modern therapy is it's like we'll just sit and talk about your feelings and sit in your own inner life And only talk about your inner life and never do anything with it.

It's like the purpose It's to become a self gift. Now, you might be sitting there being like, okay, I want to become a self gift. I want to do the inner work. I don't have anybody that I can go to. It's like, what do I do then? Well, there is something that you can do. If you look at the people who have achieved it.

Greatness in their life and they're all names. You're like, yeah, I've, yeah, I know that they've achieved greatness. Like you go mother Teresa, you go Gandhi, Alexander souls, a niche in like Abraham Lincoln. It's like you, you go to these people and you look at their life. They had a compelling vision of who they were trying to become.

So [00:46:00] let's just look at Gandhi. Gandhi's vision was to become like unto God. I want to become a man who made the invisible God visible. That's what Gandhi was trying to do. It's like, that's my objective. I have a compelling vision for my own personal character and the type of person that I want to be. I want to be God's hand and feet on earth.

That's my goal. That's my objective. And then he coupled to get that together with, I think there are the 11 vows of Gandhi. So I, I call this the moral code of being so it developed a moral code of being for him to be accountable to and for him to look every night and be like, okay, I'm trying to become this person.

These rules are actually capable of bringing out this vision to life. How am I doing on these rules? Right? Like system strive behavior. It's like those 11 vows were there. Gandhi's system that drove the behavior that led to the outcome, you know, if you're a business mind, you know, you're, you're thriving on this, right?

That led to the outcome that you're desiring, right? You start all the way, all the way [00:47:00] at the beginning. Now, you may sit in there and be like, becoming like unto God. That's really lofty. Well, look at someone like Alexander Solzhenitsyn. If you don't know Solzhenitsyn, he is credited with doing the majority of the work of taking down the Soviet Union from within the Soviet Union.

So Solzhenitsyn He was a political prisoner. He spent, I think he spent a decade in the gulags of Soviet Russia, which is hard labor in Siberia. And when he was in the prisons, in the gulag, suffering some of the worst suffering you can conceive of in humanity, it's top three, is the Soviet gulags, which still exists, by the way.

He's in this prison camp, eating this watered down soup and bread and doing hard labor in the frigid temperatures of Siberia. What he realizes is He has to own part of the blame for ending up where he ended up because he participated in the lies that led to communist Russia that allowed a system to be created for people like him to be imprisoned [00:48:00] without due process.

So he made a decision and this is really simple. He's like, I am going to become a man of truth. There will not be a single lie that will ever pass through me ever again. It's like a lack of truth. Created massive amounts of pain for me and everybody I'm in present with. So I'm going to become a man of truth.

So like, let's say you had a really, really mean dad, and the criticism that you feel, and just, the incapacity to do anything because you're just crippled by that constant criticism. It's like, okay, become the kindest person you possibly can. Don't let criticism flow out of your mouth. And then, that's the vision of who you want to be.

It's like, I want to be an incredibly kind person. Or, Jordan Peterson will say this, I want to be the kind of person everybody can rely on at my dad's funeral. Like, okay, that's a really noble vision. What's going to lead me there? And you don't have to pick the ultimate vision, you don't have to pick the ultimate thing.

Like, it's just start walking in the direction of a noble vision of who you could be, [00:49:00] and oftentimes that's enough to elevate your life.

Joey: It's still good. I love all of that. I love the vision component, finding a guide. And I love the idea that you just threw out that the guide doesn't need to be someone who is even alive right now.

If you're not ready for that, I think ultimately it is good to have someone who's mentoring you, is walking with you, who's able to like have real insight into your life. But yeah, we can learn, we can be guided through books, through podcasts, through whatever, um, just like you mentioned. And then, yeah, going back to Frankel, I just love that idea of, you know, Do something for someone else, do something for someone else.

Like, you know, as I know you would say, you know, Frankel essentially found that the thing that we want most as humans is, is meaning. And he defined meaning as like basically a deep reason to live that's bigger than yourself. And that's what I hear you saying. And his local therapy, which is essentially bringing people into, and feel free to add or correct anything I'm saying, but.

His logotherapy, which was essentially bringing people through that process of finding that compelling vision for the life and just finding a deep reason [00:50:00] to live that was bigger than themselves, was very effective. More effective than modern therapy, like you're saying. And, you know, he ran a clinic in Vienna.

Um, I know we've talked about this, Jack, but he ran a clinic in Vienna for, um, patients who were struggling with suicide. They wanted to kill themselves and it said that, you know, through local therapy, it was so effective that he never lost a single patient, which is so fascinating. And so, um, I think there is such power and, you know, while not neglecting yourself and your suffering, like we do need to heal, there is so much power and healing in that act of doing something for someone else and, and going beyond our own pain.

Jack: Yeah, I mean, I was one of the clients that I was working with who was sexually abused by a sibling and the client hadn't talked about it for 40 years and decided to talk about it. And a big reason why this individual didn't want to talk about it is because, like, I don't want to wallow in it. I just don't want to wallow in it.

I don't want to, I don't want to have to talk about it and all this stuff. But it was inhibiting this person's [00:51:00] ability to love, right? It was inhibiting their capacity to love. And so I, and be loved by other people. And I remember how much of an unburdening experience it was for this individual for me to be like, we're going to explore and enter deep into that experience of trauma so that you can draw meaning from it and that that meaning can can bring you to a place in your life in which you are better capable of To not only handle life, but be able to bring tremendous good to the rest of the world.

Like, there was this one woman that I knew near where I lived, I only met her twice. She went through incredibly difficult times. In the course of one year, she lost a child, she lost her husband, she lost both of her parents. And she had to take over the family farm. And she went through a process, internally, to draw so much meaning from it, that in the last 20 years of her life, she served at her local parish as the person that everyone would call, or not call, she would just show up.

in the [00:52:00] darkest moments of their life. So when a child died unexpectedly in the community, this woman, her Anita, Anita was her name, she would show up with pie. And oftentimes she was the only person who could sit in a room and help grieving parents make it through the day. She was oftentimes the only person who could walk into a room of someone who just lost a parent and help them feel understood and not alone in the world.

And so when she died, I mean, she was farm girl. Indiana, she did all the hidden things you do in a church, like clean the toilets and pick up the flyers on the floor and all the hidden stuff, turn the lights on, everything, nobody, you know, there's nothing visible about her. When she died, the entire county came out for a funeral.

Because at some point or another, they went through something difficult, and she showed up with Pi, and the kind of understanding that only comes from someone who drew meaning from their suffering. And it's like, the thing that she most wished never happened, has become her greatest gift to love people.

And that's [00:53:00] possible for literally anyone. Everyone, like literally everybody listening to this podcast right now, no matter the scale of the difficult thing that you've been through, it can become your superpower to love other people and to uplift other people. And the only person who gets to determine whether or not that's the case, like, is you.

It is you. 100%. It's you.

Joey: So good. I love it. And I, I think that that's a great place to end on. But before we do, I just want to ask about, um, yeah, I know you offer mentorship. So please tell us a bit about that. Like what it is that you offer and how people can find you online.

Jack: Yeah, absolutely. So you can, you can find me, you can find me in two places.

You can find me at Jack beers dot com or you can find me at the catholic mentor dot com. Jack beers dot com is a place for one on one, a group coaching. Uh, it's really meant for me to walk with you in, in a short season of your life, usually about six weeks. Uh, and I run people through a program called Rise, and it's really a system of self awareness and, and deepening your self awareness.

The [00:54:00] phrase I usually say is, um, know thyself so you can give thyself. So it's, it's sort of a six weeks program. six week boot camp with one on one coaching mixed into it, and you can find that in both sites in both places. If you're looking for specifically Catholic accompaniment, that's why you go to thecatholicmentor.

com, and that's a, that's a form of daily accompaniment, really an elevation of Catholic psychology. Spirituality and anthropology to help you kind of face the storms in your life and draw meaning from them

Joey: so good to truly be that guide. And man, I've learned a lot from you, even in this interview. So I can only imagine how helpful that mentorship would be.

And so I definitely encourage you guys to it. At least check that out, um, you'll learn more about it, get some information about what it would look like to, to work with Jack. Um, but Jack, just want to say, thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing your wisdom and your story with us. Um, I know we're all better for it.

And just in closing, just want to give you the final word, what final advice, encouragement would you leave to everyone [00:55:00] listening right now before we sign off?

Jack: Well, thank you, Joey. Uh, we've only gotten to know each other a little bit and I feel so blessed by you already. So I look forward to, to our relationship to deepen as well.

Joey: Likewise.

Jack: Last word is, uh, you can do hard things. You were made to do hard things, and you will become a shadow of who you could be if you don't.

Joey: There's so much that we discussed in this episode that it can be pretty easy to feel kind of overwhelmed by it all. And so my challenge to you is this, what's just one thing that really resonated with you in this conversation?

Just take action on that one thing today or this week. Make a simple plan to just act on that, whatever that looks like. Um, that's it. That's all you have to do. And so if you want to relisten to maybe figure out what the one thing is, feel free. But if you know it, just make a plan, take action on that one thing.

And I promise you, if you stay with it, you're going to get some results in your life. And if you come from a divorce or broken family, or, you know, someone who maybe does come from a divorce or broken family, We offer more [00:56:00] resources at Restore than just this podcast. Uh, those resources include things like a book, uh, free video courses.

They're free now. We might change that in the future. Um, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and built virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better. life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself, or maybe someone that, you know, just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken marriage, uh, feel free to share this podcast with them. Feel free to even text them now, uh, to say, Hey, you know, I listened to this.

I thought of you thought it might be helpful. I promise you, even if they don't maybe say it, they're going to be very grateful for you sharing it with them. I wish someone had done that for me years ago. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can [00:57:00] start where you are and change the ending.

#122: What Caused So Many Broken Marriages & Families? | Dr. John Bishop, PhD

With so many marriages and families falling apart, the natural question is: What has caused all these broken marriages and families?

In this episode, Dr. John Bishop unveils the surprising root cause, plus:

• The crisis of masculinity facing our world right now

• The proper place of happiness within marriage

• An awesome digital hack to protect yourself and your relationships

MyForge.org

DakotaLaneFitness.com

Fight the new drug

View Restored’s Resources

Buy Jason Evert’s booklet, Pure Intimacy

Buy Jason Evert’s talk, Green Sex

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

[00:00:00] With so many marriages and families falling apart, the natural question to ask is, what caused all of this? What caused all of these broken marriages and families? And that's what we discuss in this episode. I'm joined by Dr. John Bishop, who unveils the really surprising truth about what caused all these problems.

Plus, we discuss things like the crisis of masculinity facing our world right now, the proper place of happiness, where within marriage, an awesome digital hack that he offers to protect yourself and your family and your relationships. And finally, a new resource for married men. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can break free.

The Cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 122. We're so [00:01:00] thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard a lot of great feedback. One listener said this, I just finished listening to episode 33 where you discussed in depth that meta analysis study on children of divorce.

You did a great job explaining the contents of that study. I'm looking forward to listening to the other episodes as well. Again, we're super happy to hear that the podcast has been not only helpful, but even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out or eating healthy or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, Then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, a 75 year olds and people who've never even set foot in a gym. Before Dakota builds a customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But [00:02:00] what makes Dakota unique? There's so many fitness and nutrition coaches out there. What makes Dakota unique? I want to mention three things. One, He's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped dude, uh, but he's also a good, virtuous man who's not just obsessed with his looks. Second thing I'd say is he, he studied actually to become a priest for a little while, and through that experience and his time at Franciscan University of Steubenville and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that, uh, to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life, and neglecting the rest, like your body.

We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free. And Dakota's mission really is to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way they were made to be treated, not just to get ripped and to look good on the beach or something like that.

And so, um, if you desire freedom, if you desire transforming your body and your life, Dakota can help you. One client said this, Dakota Lane changed my life. Then the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth [00:03:00] every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so to, to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have experienced, just go to dakota lane fitness.com. Dakota lane fitness.com, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Dr. John Bishop. I'm really excited for you guys to hear from him.

John started his professional career working at the Fellowship of Catholic University Students called FOCUS. During his tenure with FOCUS, John served as a campus missionary, and he compiled and wrote a variety of resources and even taught On a variety of topics as well. He oversaw several departments at focuses, uh, international headquarters, but is best known for co founding and scaling the focus summer projects and intensive collegiate summer formation program.

And while working at focus, John earned his doctorate from the Catholic university of America, writing his dissertation on the nature of masculine virtue. Super interesting. Uh, and inspired by the thought of John [00:04:00] Paul, the second John is now fighting for men and for the family as the founder and executive director of forge, which.

which you'll hear about in this episode. John lives in Des Moines, Iowa, with his wife, Caitlin, and their three children. Before jumping in, I just want to say that we do talk about God and faith in this episode. And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. This is not a strictly religious podcast.

Anyone who's been listening to this for a while knows that. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. I just want to issue a challenge to you. If you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you're to take out or skip the God part, you're still going to benefit from this The other thing I wanted to say is if you happen to have kids around, um, this might be a good episode to put earphones in because we do talk about some mature topics.

But with that, here's my conversation with Dr. John. John, so good to have you on the show. Welcome. I'm so excited to hear about the work that you're doing and what you offer to help marriages and men and families and all that. But I wanted to start with the problem. And so I'm curious, what are the main problems that married couples are facing today?

Yeah. So, [00:05:00] I think that a lot of the problems facing married couples facing families today can be encapsulated as what you might call the difficulties brought about by the revolutions, I say. So if we were to consider the industrial revolution, the sexual revolution, and now what you might call the digital revolution, we've got a whole host of problems that have been brought to the doorstep of the family, to the doorstep of every marriage.

That is existing in the 21st century, particularly in developed countries, and I think the collective effect of those revolutions is to take a whole picture of marriage and family that was that was previously very united, a way of being that was steeped in tradition that was interconnected across generations, um, that had a certain integrity to it, especially when it comes to sexuality.

That whole image was kind of torn apart, um, over the course of, of a couple of generations. And so the industrial revolution takes, you know, various generations of families, and you've got then grandfathers living in one part [00:06:00] of the country, children living in another part of the country, you know, grandchildren still living in a third, commutes coming in and, and, and people spending large portions of their days, you know, at, uh, in different places, um, you got to the sexual revolution and the ecosystem.

That we related to one another in sexually that constituted the foundation of many people's, uh, way of being when it comes to, um, to culture and to society at large. All that's rent us under. And now the latest thing just in the last couple of decades is what you might call the digital revolution. Okay.

So you've got, uh, the distraction, just to name one example of phones, the, the whole digital way of living that whether in professional context or a personal context, people relate in. All of these things together, industrial revolution, digital revolution, sexual revolution, taking that fabric of the family and tearing it apart.

And so if I was to say concisely, what are the problems facing the family today, I would say it's the [00:07:00] problem of the revolutions. Now I think that that set of problems has a particularly catastrophic effect on men, particularly on a man's ability to be a committed husband and father, and it's to that set of problems that that forge the organization I run, um, responds most especially.

Love that. No, so good. And I love how you edit the digital revolution. I haven't really heard people talk much about that. Of course, we hear about the industrial and the sexual revolutions, but that's fascinating. One of the things, just kind of a side note I love about you, I remember when we were texting recently to kind of set up this interview, you mentioned like, Hey, I'm shutting my phone down for the night.

And I was like, that's amazing. Talk about that for a second. What's that habit that you guys have? Well, like, Perhaps many of our listeners today, I am hopelessly addicted to the nicotine that is pumping out of my iPhone. And I, uh, I've not made the jump and, you know, gone to a dumb phone, although I applaud the people who do.

Props to you. I've, I've not taken the [00:08:00] leap myself, but my wife and I have made the decision at different points in our marriage and with a renewed fervor in the last six months to have portions of our day that are basically technology free and the, and the biggest. Kind of threat I take when it comes to technology is is the threat of an iPhone and my wife has an eyewatch.

But what we'll do it's a pretty simple system. We have an old shoe box that sits in a coat closet right by our front door. Okay. And sits on the top shelf. There's no lock on it or anything like that. It's a cardboard box so you can, you can. grab whatever's in it pretty easily, but you do have to go through the intentional act of getting whatever's inside it.

And from 515, which is about the time when I'm, I'm wrapping up work every day through to when our toddlers go down to bed. So about seven 30, we'll just go no, no technology whatsoever in our home. Now we do a similar thing on Sundays as well, so that there is some time where. Our family is interacting with one another.

That's sacred space, which is [00:09:00] our vocations. Um, that the center, uh, gosh, just the most intimate part of our lives is not kind of impinged upon by the, by the trillion dollar industry, you know, which is contemporary technology. I mean, if you think about it, anytime that you, you have an iPhone or, or any other device of that nature in your sphere, there is literally a billion trillion dollar industry that is bent on getting in contact with you.

So you shouldn't be surprised when that trillion dollar industry threatens. Your ability to have a good conversation with your wife, your ability to have a meaningful interaction with your child. And I think that, um, you know, it's really just something that everyone should consider, you know, just having periods of time set aside where you've got, you've got no technology, at least in the modern sense.

Now, somebody might ask when you hear about these policies, what, what if somebody absolutely has to get ahold of you? Well, I've got another tip for that. So something my wife and I have also done. Get a landline. So it's, it's been one of the most freeing things for us is, uh, take a, [00:10:00] you know, a time warp, you know, go, go back to the days of the Neanderthals, um, get a landline and we have, uh, you know, maybe, maybe a dozen people in our lives, some, some close friends and my parents, um, back before I founded my own ministry that, uh, my direct supervisors at work, they all had the numbers for those landlines.

Uh, so that if, if you absolutely need to get ahold of me, There's still the option there, right? But you got to call that number, you know, it's got to be a pretty intentional thing. And so I think in, in a couple of years of having that landline, there was like three calls, you know, over the course of that whole time that actually got through.

So anyway, that's how we approach it. So a lot, a lot of different and wonderful ways to approach technology. No, I love it. And I'm sure there's a lot of barriers that people. We'll think of, you know, when it comes to like doing some sort of routine like that, which I love, I want to talk to my wife about doing it because recently after texting you and you saying that I realized like, my goodness, there's so many moments, even though we're pretty good with it, there's so many moments where like, you know, you're on your phone and you know, my daughter's like standing right there.

It's like, uh, I don't want to be doing that. And [00:11:00] so no, I love that. And one of the things too, like for me, my brain always puts up different barriers. Like I mentioned that my people might be thinking of, and like one of them is like, I'm like, I have such a restless mind. Like I'm always having new ideas and thoughts and things that I need to like, get into some system, otherwise I'll just forget them.

And so the, one of the things I realized early on is like pen and paper, it's like, you can just like have that next to your bed, couch or wherever and write that down and then later you put that into, you know, your phone or your task system or whatever. And so I think there are like a lot of great solutions, you know, at the alarm solution too.

It's like, well, Buy an alarm clock. I mean, not really rolling the clock back that far, but just rolling it back 20, 30 years, uh, really ups your game in terms of your freedom to focus on the relationships that are in your presence at any given moment. And so little step that we've decided to take, and it's been generally a good thing.

We practice it very imperfectly. Yeah, no, I mean, even doing it imperfectly. And I've even seen like the most disciplined people that I know they might only succeed at their. discipline like 80 to 90 percent of [00:12:00] the time, but that's still a win. You know, if you hit a baseball 80 to 90 percent of the time, you're like unheard of.

So I think it's a, it's an incredible thing. No, so good. And so much more, I'm sure we can say about that, but I appreciate like your example and just wanted to applaud that. Going back to this whole, you know, discussion of like the problems that are facing marriages today. I think one of them is that there's so many lies when it comes to lies about love.

And so I'm just curious, kind of, what are some of the poisons, or what are some of the lies that are poisoning marriages when it comes to love? Yeah, Joey, when I think about lies poisoning marriage today, I think, gosh, what comes to mind for me is the notion of the language of the body. All right. So some of our listeners may have heard of this, some of them may have not heard of it, but the idea of the language of the body is that the body is designed in a certain way so as to speak a language.

Okay. So for example, you can't do something with your body and have it mean just anything, you know, now some things you can. So like, for example, the language, which is [00:13:00] sign languages. Entirely contrived and we could make a new symbol that would mean whatever. Well, we want it to mean, okay? But there are some things when they're done with the body that that means something very specific and it would it would be difficult To change the meaning of those things at least drastically across time and place, right?

So like for example, if I was to you know, reach through the cybersphere right now, you know and punch you in the nose Joey, it would be very difficult for me to convince you that that means I love you Right. And, you know, in the same way, the things that we do with our bodies sexually express a certain thing, you know, and so, for example, you know, the sexual act expresses a certain degree of commitment, right?

Because after all, in the natural, I keep using the word ecosystem today. It must be the word of the day in the natural ecosystem of sexuality. There is at least some relation between sexuality and children, right? So to engage in sexuality in an entirely casual switching partners all of the time type of fashion can cause a kind of confusing effect on the body because, well, after all, our psychology isn't [00:14:00] developed so as to interact with one another in that way, all right?

Now, When people ask me, and I, I'm going to give a little bit of a, an old take here, but simultaneously a hot take when people ask me, what are some of the most difficult effects that are facing marriages today? If I had to pick one, I would pick contraception. I would say that In the sexual ecosystem, running with this analogy a little bit more, if there's any core thing that is brought about a destabilization of our sexual culture at large, and also of our individual relationships with one another, I think it's the effect of contraception.

You know, and I've, it's interesting, I've actually found religious or non religious, more millennials and Gen Z folks who are entirely amenable to this position. So like, for example, I was in a production studio four or five months ago with a couple of artists who were basically running the tech and the sound in the studio, entirely non religious people.

And, One of these men had decided to throw contraception out of [00:15:00] his marriage because he felt as though he was basically introducing something that was unnatural into this very intimate relationship that he had with his wife. So his, he and his wife had, had started using Natural methods of either pursuing or avoiding pregnancy in their relationship and he spoke about what a wonderful effect it had had on his specific relationship with his wife as if everything had become to some extent more authentic, you know, so thinking of this idea of the language of the body that the way in which he spoke to his wife sort of spoke to her physically had been greatly enhanced by doing things in a more natural way.

I've heard people use the term green sex before, so that's individual relationships, but then society at large, when I think of the sexual revolution and the destabilization of marriage and family that's happened over the course of the last two, three generations, that destabilization was largely brought about, or at least fanned into flame by the advent of the pill of contraception.

And I, I don't think we [00:16:00] would have many of the problems that we have in the family today were it not for contraception. I totally agree with you. I, you know, contraception led to an increase in abortion, obviously. And then it led to the problem that we honestly are facing in my apostle, which is divorce, right?

Broken families, just how You know, along with the contraceptive mentality kind of elevated the feelings and the happiness quote unquote of the adults over anything else, really. And so if I was happier running off with this other woman, even though I made a commitment to my spouse, if that was what was going to make me happy, then I should just go ahead and do that, even if it left so much damage in my wake.

And I think that kind of contraceptive mentality has just plagued our society in so many ways. I think that's right. Yeah, it's taken a very intimate part of our beings as humans, that is the sexual dimension of our beings, um, a dimension that is ultimately oriented towards making a gift of oneself, and which involves a kind of submission to the natural order, you know, that, that God imbued in the universe, and kind of [00:17:00] flips it on its head, right, where, where sex becomes not gift, but take, and where the orientation that we bring into sexuality, or our approach to it, maybe to use a better term, um, doesn't assent to the natural, but rather sets itself up against nature, you know?

And I just think that has all kinds of primary, secondary, tertiary negative effects across human psychology, that, uh, we really work destruction on ourselves, on our own ability to be sexually satisfied even. when we introduce that kind of toxin, that kind of unnatural elements into a very delicate ecosystem.

So good. I couldn't agree more. I remember seeing a secular headline saying like, talking about pornography, it was saying like, porn is ruining sex for everyone. You know, we're facing like so many problems now with people, you know, with erectile dysfunction, like all sorts of issues that, you know, stem from, again, this kind of, like you're saying, this warped.

version of sexuality that we sometimes think of as liberty, but in the end, it's not really making us more free. It's actually enslaving us to something [00:18:00] that we never really wanted or desired in the first place. Yeah, pornography is a great example. And you know, I was talking to somebody who runs pornography recovery groups earlier this morning.

And, uh, I'm preparing in a few weeks now for my own apostolate to launch similar groups. You know, porn might be kind of the, if contraception is at the root of the stream, like pornography might be where the stream of our sexual dysfunction kind of bottoms out, where, uh, you have another instance of inauthenticity.

Sexual inauthenticity being consumed on a regular basis and rendering people less able to be sexually authentic, right? I mean, is there any greater contradiction to this idea of the language of the body than relating to the pixels on a computer screen? Right? Or on an iPhone screen that pornography warps us so easily.

And I want to point out something there, you know, the word warp, I think is exactly correct that our sexual preferences, our ability to sexually relate to an actual real human being are deeply warped by [00:19:00] pornography. I had an intimate series of conversations with a number of people who, uh, were more or less struggling with same sex attraction who had no difficulties with same sex attraction whatsoever.

prior to starting to use pornography. And the allure of heterosexual porn couldn't really satisfy them, so to speak, anymore. So then they kind of just kept moving to, you know, another form of novelty, you know, down the line of the pornographic train and found themselves with a very, an even more distorted view of sexuality than when they began.

And I can't help but think that pornography is sort of the bridge, the gateway drug to so many sexual manipulations. You know, in so many people, both of their own psychology, you know, the sexual abuse that comes about as a result of pornography and so many other disheartening things. So yeah, fight the new drug.

If you haven't been to the website go, um, and fight the new drug. org and wake up to the fact that, yeah, it's, It'll be difficult to get off pornography if you're in any way connected to it, but it's a fight worth fighting. [00:20:00] The best way I've heard it said from fight the new drug and people like Jason Everett and Matt Fradd is that, you know, porn porn just destroys your ability to love because it just teaches you to use people.

And there's no way you can build an authentic relationship built on real love. If all you're looking is to just use someone for your own gratification. And so. That's a big topic. I'm sure we could go much deeper there, but I'm just curious if there are any other, um, maybe lies around marriage that you've seen really destroy marriages.

And I wanted to offer one, um, if that's okay, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. And that is, yeah, just believing that like the purpose of marriage is happiness. Because I think so often in our culture, we see it as like this vehicle, this tool, this way of becoming like happier. And what I've seen, you know, what I've learned is like the purpose of marriage is not happiness.

The purpose of marriage is holiness. You know, there's nothing in the marriage vows that actually, the traditional marriage vows that promise happiness. And I know that sounds super unromantic, but I think it's so important because what I've seen, especially in doing this work, is like, you know, Underneath almost every divorce is [00:21:00] this, you know, belief, conscious or not, that, you know, we expect our spouse to make us perfectly happy.

And if they don't, then we might think, man, maybe I've married the wrong spouse, or maybe I even like, you know, pick the wrong vocation or whatever. And we might even be tempted to leave. And many people do. Um, and so I think that's one thing that I think we need to get back to is that it's not just, meant to be this like walk in the park, this easy thing, it's meant to be something that is going to make us the best version of ourselves, so to speak, is meant to make us, um, holy.

And it's meant to help us to, you know, uproot the vices that we have and to replace those with virtues and so many other things. But I think, um, it's really freeing actually to hear that because then, you know, okay, my marriage is not just subject to the whims of my feelings or, you know, my quote unquote happiness.

It's really, there's this greater purpose and this greater goal in all of it. Yeah, I love what you said. I'm going to play with that for a little bit and tell me what you think of this. So on the one hand, you might say that it would be a mistake to enter a marriage if your idea of marriage is just to make you more happy in some shallow sense of [00:22:00] happiness, you know?

So like, for example, I will enter into this marriage because I, I really enjoy going on trips with this person, you know, or I love the way that our tastes compliment one another, you know, or, or whatever it is that understanding of happiness, which is, I think, unfortunately, the view of happiness that a lot of millennials, Gen Z's, even baby boomers before us took into marriage is, is the attitude that brought about so many broken families.

Now, ultimately, I do think that marriage serves a purpose of making people more happy. But I want to say this, and this is really just kind of what I'd love for you to try and precise, um, the purpose of marriage is not happiness. The purpose of marriage is to explode your idea of happiness. All right. So it's like, look, I am convicted that anybody who enters into marriage and is married for longer than 20 minutes will suffer to a degree that they could not have possibly anticipated.

So it's like, no matter how experienced you are, when it comes to your understanding of marriage, if you've got [00:23:00] a doctorate in psychology and another doctorate in theology, and you love John Paul II and you're just all about marriage and you've, you know, you've dated the person well and whatever, I don't care.

Marriage is going to break you. That's how that's going to go. Almost no matter what that is, that you will hit points in your marriage that will bring you to your knees. It will be so hard, but that difficulty will open up your interiority, open up your spirit to entire vistas of happiness that were previously unavailable to you.

So, it's like, I think one of the things that makes marriage so brilliant is that it takes place till death do you part. That is when couples sign up to get married, they could not possibly have an idea ultimately of what their marriage is going to look like 20 years later. Nevertheless, you're committed to somebody and something psychologically happens for people when you, you start, you know, I've only been married for five years, so not a very long period of time in relation to a lot of people [00:24:00] who.

have much more business talking about this topic than either of us do. Um, but something kind of settles into like the way that you love somebody when the years keep passing by. And there's a way in which the suffering gets more heavy. I guess you could say, I don't really, I don't know that I like that term, but the suffering gets at least more real, but simultaneously your vanities die.

Um, your ability to Actually understand a person and accept them for all of the different facets of their being is heightened beyond measure in a way that it could never be heightened if there was even the smallest bit of openness, openness to ending the relationship, you know, it's like when people say that they, you know, yeah, we've been married for seven years, but you know, we're open to it ending someday.

What I want to say to them is, well, actually, you haven't been married for even a single minute. Because you haven't been married at all until you've been married till death do you part. Because there's, there's, there's a, there's a threshold that you cross over when you enter into that kind of commitment that actually sets you free to love a [00:25:00] person in the way that only their spouse can love them.

That is only the way that somebody who's committed until death to you apart, no matter what can love them. And so sure, like, I suppose people shouldn't enter marriage to quote, be happy. That is if they have a false shallow understanding of happiness, but if they want to have. A much deeper understanding of happiness that is if you want your vision of happiness to be exploded into something so much better than it actually is now, then get married because you don't know what marriage is going to be.

There's no way to perfectly prepare, but your vision of happiness will be exploded and deepened. So good. No, I love that. And I love that distinction between like the shallow sense of happiness and this, you know, deeper sense of happiness because I totally agree with you when I talk about happiness when I give talks on this topic or, you know, talk about the lie that we're often fed that, you know, the purpose of marriage is happiness.

I am thinking more of like that shallow sense of kind of gratification or comfort or pleasure or something that again is more fleeting. And, you know, it's just kind of meant to give us some sort of a high. Okay. [00:26:00] Um, and, and we certainly would say, you know, that's not the purpose of marriage, but I love that you're refocusing in this, that, you know, there is such a deeper sense of joy, fulfillment, satisfaction.

I don't know what other words you would use, um, that can result from this continual process, like you said, of, you know, suffering. And then growing suffering and growing and it's really analogous to working out. Um, I don't, you know, I hope this analogy is okay for people, but you know, the process of working out of making your body stronger is literally you need to suffer to break, like literally, you know, on the muscular level, your muscles are like, being pulled apart, like destroyed, so to speak.

I'm not a scientist, but this is why it didn't explain to me. And then afterward, the recovery is actually what makes you stronger. And so I think when it comes to marriage, totally, like I know, you know, for us, there's been really difficult seasons already in our marriage. We've been married about six years, you know, Basically it may as long as you guys and um, there's been some difficult trying times, but then at the end of that tunnel, if we work through it and stick with it, which gets to your [00:27:00] point of like being, having that commitment to stick with it, there's something that is much more beautiful at the end of it.

And I think a lot of people call it quits before they get to experience that. I think that's right. I think a lot of people call it quits before they experience the real goodness of marriage. You know, the high, the honeymoon high is so fleeting, but the real good of it is much better than the honeymoon.

And it only comes with a little bit of time. In my experience, I'm looking forward to, I have the grace. My parents have been married for coming up on 40 years now, and I had Thanksgiving dinner with my mom and dad. We hosted this year. They and my siblings all came over for Thanksgiving dinner, and at Thanksgiving dinner, we did the typical thing.

We went around the table and said what we were thankful for. Okay, and we got to my parents, my mom and my dad, who've had difficulties in their marriage of many different sorts. But they looked at one another and they both started bawling their eyes out and just kind of at just out of the blue saying what they were thankful for.

And my dad looking at my mom, this is, this is not exaggerated even a little bit. My dad looking at my mom said, [00:28:00] I can't tell you how happy I am to be married to you. And, you know, in front of all of his children and grandchildren and everything, and my mom looked right back at him and said the same thing.

And then my dad said, I feel like in the last three years of our marriage, we've become more happy than we've ever been before. And if you think about that, like that would mean, so they've been married like 39 years now. That would mean that around marriage, you know, year number 36, they started to descend into this whole nother, they had a happy marriage before that already, but a great marriage pretty much all the way through with some really notable difficulties.

But around year 36, they hit this spot of like a whole new level of depth as if the bottom had fallen out to a level of meaning that they hadn't previously had access to. That's the kind of happiness that marriage can bring you, but it's very different than the kind of happiness that you were rightly shining a light on before.

Wow. No, so beautiful. And I'd love to go deeper a little bit into that because the people listening right now, So often haven't seen that example of what a beautiful, healthy marriage looks like, not a perfect one. And so talk me through a [00:29:00] little bit of that. Like maybe what were some of like the lessons or takeaways that you have witnessing your parents marriage over the years?

Gosh, I look forward someday to speaking with you about this for seven hours. So let me try and say some concise things now. Here are a few things. My dad never stopped pursuing my mom. I don't think he ever did. I think he was always after her. Even though he'd already won her heart, you know, they're sleeping together every night.

They're, they're married. They're got a bunch of kids, whatever, but they were always doing things for one another that were sort of romantic, you know, just going after it. Like I remember there were a few years where my dad's business kind of fell apart. And so money was really tight in the house. And I remember there was this anniversary.

And my mom kind of got us kids together, and the older ones of us knew this, though she didn't say it, that they didn't have money to go out to eat. And so what my mom did is, uh, she had all of us, some [00:30:00] of us young boys, we dressed up in suits. So we had, we had suits and ties on, and we set the, the dinner table just kind of like in a nicer way and put candles out and everything.

And mom made this like really nice dinner for dad. And then by the time he got home, most of the kids were upstairs like watching a movie, but me and one of my brothers, we were downstairs and our job was to kind of like, you know, in a sort of showy way, like bring the food out and put it down there wearing suits for mom and dad.

And so they did stuff like that for one another. Um, In the midst of the difficulty. I mean, I think that story is particularly good because, you know, I think the deepening of married love oftentimes involves a simultaneous mix of bliss and excruciating suffering. And it's the cocktail of those two things that makes for real happiness.

So you've got something particularly bad going on, like you're broke or whatever your thing is, and you, you sprinkle in the midst of that a little bit of good cheap romance, you know, the kind that you can come up with, you know, uh, on a Costco bottle of wine and [00:31:00] about, you know, box of mac and cheese or something like that, you know, like you, you have those two things together.

And I think that makes for something really good, you know, as the years go on. So that's just one thought. you know, that comes to mind. Uh, men, there's so much we've covered and so much I want to cover with you, but I was just curious if there's anything else you would add when we're talking about this problem that, uh, you know, problems that are facing marriages today, uh, specifically when it comes to men, you know, we've already talked a bit about pornography and some of the other things like contraception, but just curious if there's anything you'd add when it comes to the problems men in marriage are facing.

Yeah. So the issues that have faced humanity when it comes to the sexual revolution in particular have had the effect of. Crippling marriages in general, but crippling men in particular. All right. So if you examine particularly the last two generations of men when it comes to interest in marriage and interest in family, there has been a sharp precipitous decline in the number of men who want to be married that far outstrips their feminine counterparts.[00:32:00]

All right, so the number of particularly religious women who find themselves climbing the ladder of their twenties, thirties and forties and completely unable to find a man who's willing to be their partner is very high in this day and age, and I appreciate it. You know, I read a great sociologist on this.

Um, he wrote a book called The Decline of Males. Um, he's got kind of an unfortunate name. His name is Lionel, L I N E L, Tiger. Uh, he's an evolutionary sociologist at Rutgers University. Anyway, Dr. Tiger, who wrote this book, Decline of Males, again, a non religious person himself, said that the chief cause contributing to the decline of men in our society is the advent of contraception.

Because what it, what it effectively did to men was, um, take an already kind of tenuous connection that men felt with their children. I mean, throughout the whole course of human history, it's been more difficult to get men to commit to their children than it is to get women to commit to their children.

I mean, think about it. Women, you know, after conceiving a child, they bear the child [00:33:00] in their room for nine months. They oftentimes then feed the child at their breasts. And so there's a connection that is forged there. Universally for women, that is not the same for men. And so the great kind of task oftentimes of culture is getting men to be more than mere reproducers, but to be husbands and to be fathers.

That is to be committed to their families, right? And the way in which contraception has made sex so readily available, both in contraceptive sex period, but then in all of the things that contraception has brought forth, not least of which is pornography. Has made men relatively less interested in sexuality.

There are a lot of other deeper things at play too. When you think, for example, of, you know, in a society that is marked by largely licentious sexual practices, the ability of a man even to know, you know, if a child is his or not, you know, prior to modern paternity tests, drastically declines. And so that already weak link between a father and a child is gone.

So this one author, for example, says that in the, in the modern culture, in the modern [00:34:00] state. The holy trinity of time gone by, that is the holy trinity of a husband, a wife, and a child has now in the contemporary sexual culture been replaced by a new trinity, which is a mother, a child, and ordinarily a bureaucrat, you know, or a, or a welfare handout or any of the modern day kind of stand ins for the father.

And so. Forge, the organization that I run, leans in a particular way in giving men guidance to become great husbands and fathers, and that emphasis on men is not chauvinism. It's actually recognizing a kind of weakness that men, particularly contemporary men, have. And the need for guidance, you know, I, I think in the midst of that too, when you throw in the fact that a lot of the, the cultural things which traditionally guided young boys to become great men, those things have been replaced by, for example, the idea of toxic masculinity has had the effect of leaving boys pretty lost.

You know, whereas previous cultures gave young men a guide for what it looked [00:35:00] like to walk the path towards authentic masculinity of taking boys to men, that guide has been replaced with a question mark that we've given young boys really just confusion now about what it means to be male, about what it means to be masculine.

And they want answers. If they don't find answers from good, wholesome sources like educational systems or like churches, then young boys will look for answers about masculinity in other places like YouTube or, or God forbid, like the streets, which is why I think, for example, you see like an influx in gangs.

You see an influx in what I take to be some toxic male personalities like Andrew Tate. Because young boys are not getting wholesome masculinity, positive masculinity from the places that previously gave it, they're, they're kind of being forced to look for it in the gutters. And so you have the, the crisis of men, the crisis of masculinity brought about by something which was supposed to make us more free, the sexual revolution, but which indeed.

Introduce a kind of chaos and a new, more sinister kind of slavery. No, I couldn't agree with you more. And especially looking [00:36:00] at boys, like, I think anyone could recognize how much of a problem we're facing there. And what I've seen too, is that, you know, as a boy, like when you're growing up, you know, early teen years, especially, um, you're trying to develop your strength, right?

You're hopefully looking to become this like strong man. And that's even gone amiss in so many ways. Like we're not even looking to develop boys into strong men. Um, or boys might not even see that as some sort of a goal, but of course that is the goal. It's like to develop a strength so that then we can offer, and that's the other side of the coin that I've seen.

And so you're right, if we, you know, don't have someone who's helping us develop that strength, not just the physical strength, but the moral strength, the interior strength, it's becoming more virtuous, all those things, and we don't have a clear outlet, a place to offer our strength, then yeah, it's just going to turn into just disastrous, um, just lead us down disastrous routes.

And it's so interesting to see how You mentioned the streets, uh, it's kind of fascinating to think how gang leaders, uh, you could probably throw in cartel leaders, terrorist leaders, whoever, are often some of the most, like, effective leaders, especially when [00:37:00] it comes to men, because they, they breathe, like, this purpose into their existence, they help them to channel that strength into something, whether it's good or bad, And for men, it's like, yeah, you're speaking my language.

Like I need, I need to do something with my strength. And so, yeah, you hit the nail on the head so well. And I'm sure there's so much more you could say before we move on. I just want to give you a chance to come. Yeah. I think what you said about gang leaders is, is particularly appropriate. Young boys have male raw material across time and place, every society, except for the last couple of generations of Western societies, they've had actual things like initiation rights and now granted some of those initiation rights were bad.

All right, but let's set that aside for a moment across all times and places. There were channels that took that male energy, if you will, and did that just that channeled it into masculinity. All right, we don't have those today, but boys still want to be channeled. You know, no matter how loud the culture preaches to young boys that there's no such thing as masculinity, that's that it's a fiction or whatever it is.

That [00:38:00] doesn't change the fact that boys still want to be men. Whether you're willing to give them an image of masculinity or not, they still want to be men. And so when a gang leader, um, or a YouTube personality or a, some sort of public figure gives them an image of masculinity that they can latch onto, and even more so if they give them a kind of club, if you will, that affirms them in their masculinity, I mean, a literal gang to use your example, then, then they feel masculine all the more.

All right. And I, it's, it's this particular thing, not to, to kind of tout my own products here, if you will, that. That led the organization that I lead, we, we just recently released a course, you can find it on the homepage of our website, it's called Fathers and Sons, and uh, so if you go to myforge. org, M Y F O R G E.

org, you can see this course, and what it is, is it's a six part series that instructs fathers on the healthy sexual formation of their sons. Okay, so what does it look like, for example, in the absence of a father? Of, uh, you know, an initiation right of 1752, you know, time gone by, you know, but [00:39:00] to do the good thing that initiation rights previously did and give your son an image of masculinity that he can aspire towards, right?

What does it look like to talk to your son about sexuality before the world manipulates him? What does it look like to introduce your son into a community of men much better than you? Uh, the community of a gang that will at the same time affirm him in his masculinity so that he doesn't go look for that same affirmation elsewhere.

What does that look like? So my, my organization got together with groups of psychologists around the country to put a curriculum together. We just call it fathers and sons. Um, it's a six part series to help men transform their boys into. great husbands and fathers for the next generation. I love the focus on like, you know, making men strong so that they then can offer their strength to their wives, to their children, to society as a whole.

Because it's so interesting to me looking at like stories, for example, how, you know, often the difference between the hero and the villain is that the hero uses his strength for good. The villain uses his strength for bad. It's kind of a simplistic way of explaining it, but that's the [00:40:00] way that I see it.

Yeah. And so I think it's like, so good if we can, you know, help boys become men and, you know, step into those roles. So I want to hear a little bit more about your organization, if you would, in closing, like what solutions do you guys offer to all of these problems that we have talked about today? In addition to the course that you mentioned?

Yeah. So we're an organization that's fundamentally devoted to the family, but in our efforts to build up the family, we have a strategic emphasis on men. In our first two years of operations, so we're just four months old in our first two years of operations, we're focusing exclusively on men as we continue forward.

We'll also develop materials for women. What we do, we say we champion the good of the family, and then we evangelize by virtue of that flourishing. So we, uh, we do things like develop great resources, uh, facilitate empowering interpersonal mentorship. Um, so as to bring great families into the contemporary world, despite.

The revolutions like we said at the at the start of this episode the industrial [00:41:00] digital sexual revolutions all of which kind of tear at the fabric of the family we aim to reverse that trend okay so we're we're fundamentally an organization that seeks to inspire a movement of families that are fully alive we do a lot of our on the ground stuff virtually all of it at this point in Des Moines Iowa.

So we've got a lot of small groups of husbands and fathers going in Des Moines, future husbands and fathers going here in Des Moines, um, large events, you know, that we put together, uh, soon here we'll start sexual accountability groups, uh, we do mentorship between, we call it intergenerational mentorship, so between husbands and fathers of one generation in their 50s, mentoring men who are in their 20s, We do a lot of stuff like that.

Um, but we do have a growing national platform. So for example, if you go to our website, I think at present we have people doing our first course in over 30 cities. Uh, that is small groups of men, um, who have gotten online, bought our first course, say, Hey, I want to know what it looks like to develop a son who [00:42:00] is flourishing.

in the sexual dimension of his being. And I'd like to, you know, with another group of men, talk about what it looks like to raise that kind of son. So we say, and, and, and this is a lot of this is brought out. I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the crisis of men and masculinity in the church and in the culture.

And one of the things that I became deeply convicted about over the course of writing that dissertation was that the best of men are oftentimes not raised by a single man that is by a single father, if you will. Um, the best of men are raised by groups of men. So one of the best things that you can do to raise a great family, particularly to raise great sons, is to intentionally involve yourself in a group of like minded men who will be a voice for you.

In saying things that your son won't hear from your voice, okay, that he needs to hear from the voice of your friends, right? So, we developed the materials that we developed for the men's small group for that reason. Um, that we, we really don't think that individuals, marriages, or [00:43:00] families are meant to do the family, the marriage, the human flourishing thing on an island.

But are indeed meant to do it in the context of community. And so that's why, why we develop the resources in the way that we do. So hop on the website, my forge. org. Um, if you go to go to courses and content, um, we also have free materials, articles, podcasts, things of that nature as well, but you can also see the courses that we put out there.

Um, particularly our first course that is on the topic of raising sexually healthy sons, we will release two more courses in September. One of those courses is on the domestic church. So what does it mean to pass the faith from one generation to the next? And then finally, a course called Patriarchs, um, which is on the role of, of grandfathers in contemporary society.

Love that. And I, I think it's so, so inspiring. I know we probably don't have a lot of these type of people listening right now, but people who, older men, men who maybe feel like their time is kind of done. You know, they maybe built a business or they, you know, served in the military or did whatever with their life.

And then they reached this kind of like sage stage in masculinity. And they kind of think, well, kind of finished, you know, I'm not as [00:44:00] useful as I used to be, but I love what you're saying, especially on that last course about how no, this is actually the time in your life when you can have the greatest impact where it can be like the most fruitful.

And I just love that. I think that's so inspiring for so many reasons. So, so good. And John, I always love talking with you, man. And. You're always welcome back and we'll have to do another show, but, uh, yeah, just really appreciate you and everything that you're doing and appreciate you coming on the show.

And, uh, with that, I wanted to just give you the final word, like what final encouragement advice would you offer to everyone listening, especially our audience who, you know, comes from broken families, uh, when it comes to this topic of love of marriage of fatherhood and everything we've discussed. Just that Joey, I think you're right on the money and what you're doing and, and the people who are engaging your resources.

I think they're doing exactly the right thing. Um, there's an old Latin saying, and that translates to basically you can't give what you don't have. And I think that. You know, a lot of the work that I do when it comes to building up men, [00:45:00] marriages and families, we don't have a particular eye towards divorce or any of the things that you lean into specifically.

So many of the issues in parenting style can be fixed. By healing your own brokenness so much of what I think what my organization does is encourage people to take their own healing seriously so that that brokenness doesn't just keep going down the generations and so obviously the pain of divorce can wreak havoc.

That is so painful. I mean, obviously you speak quite a bit about that Joey and, um, could not highlight the value of your organization anymore. So for all the listeners, I was not paid to say that, but I, I think that, that this is such critically important work. So thank you for what you're doing. If you like that, if you want more from Dr.

John, I definitely recommend checking out his organization called the forge. Again, you can learn more about them at their website, my [00:46:00] forge. org again, my forge. org, or just click on the link in the show notes. If you want to learn more about natural family planning, the method John kind of mentioned in passing to achieve or avoid a pregnancy, two resources I would recommend from speaker and author Jason Everett.

The first is an audio talk called Green Sex. And if you're an audio person, this is a great way to learn more about this whole thing of natural family planning. If you're more of a reader, you can pick up his book. called pure intimacy. It's actually a booklet. It's a really short read. And so that's pure intimacy.

Um, especially if you're a reader, that's a good one for you. Again, you can get all that by clicking the links in the show notes to get the, the talk green sex or the booklet pure intimacy. Again, just click on the show notes if you want one of those. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include things like a book, video courses, speaking engagements, uh, free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help [00:47:00] you heal, from the trauma you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, you can go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents, divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. I promise you they will be very grateful. Feel free to even take 30 seconds now, if you want to share it with them.

In closing, always remember that you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending. [00:48:00]

Diez Consejos Para Ayudar a Alguien Cuyos Padres Se Están Separando o Divorciando

7 minute read

For the English version, go here.

Recientemente una amiga me envió un mensaje de texto con unas noticias tristes: su tía y tío se están divorciando. Naturalmente, ella esta preocupada por los cinco niños — sus primos. Ella me preguntó: ¿Qué puedo hacer para ayudarlos? Esta fue mi respuesta, siendo un niño de divorciados que ha escuchado a personas como yo y leído los estudios sobre el tema durante años.

1. No hagas como si no pasa nada

Para consolarnos, personas con buenas intenciones a veces dicen:“Tu familia no se esta terminando sino cambiando” o “¡Ahora tienes dos casas y el doble de regalos!” La verdad es que decir esto hace daño.

¿Por qué? Porque el divorcio nos duele – independientemente de nuestra edad y el motivo del mismo. Cuando alguien lo toma a la ligera, sentimos que no deberiamos sentirnos mal. Incluso, tal vez pensamos que algo esta mal con nosotros por sentirnos de esta manera. Además, tendemos a no confiar en alguien que hace como si no pasara nada porque es claro que no entiende lo dificil que es observar el matrimonio de tus padres destrozarse.

En vez de endulzar, llama al divorcio lo que es: una tragedia. Algo muy dificil de soportar. Una injusticia para los niños, incluso en los casos extremos cuando el divorcio es necesario. Porque cada niño merece una familia saludable con dos padres que eligen amarse y seguir juntos.

2. Escucha como se sienten

Tristemente, muchas veces ni siquiera preguntan como nos sentimos sobre el tema. El enfoque suele estar en los padres. En consecuencia, nos guardamos las cosas por dentro. Incluso si estamos sufriendo, no hablamos sobre el tema. Y como nosotros no lo hacemos, la gente asume que estamos bien.

Entonces, pregunta como se sienten sobre el divorcio. Dales la oportunidad de expresar sus emociones. Si no pueden articularlo, ayudalos. Estudios muestran que cuanto más específicamente puedan describir sus sentimientos, mejor será para ellos. Si no hablan de cómo se sienten, es posible que expresen su ira de otras formas poco saludables en vez de afrontar la situación.

Y, naturalmente, realmente escuchalos. No escuches para responder con la respuesta “correcta”, escucha para realmente entenderlos.

3. Valida su dolor

Recientemente, un amigo me dijo la historia de una niña pequeña que le dijo a su maestra que sus padres se estaban divorciando. La maestra dijo: “Lo siento mucho.” La niña respondio: “Está bien.” Menos mal que la maestra continuó la conversación. Ella le dijo: “No está bien. Esto no debería se así.” La niña empezó a llorar y finalmente admitió lo difícil que era para ella.

Desafortunadamente, es raro que alguien valide nuestro dolor. Entonces les puedes decir: está bien no estar bien. Está bien sentir emociones incómodas. Si se sienten frustrados, enojados, abandonados, que no son suficientamente buenos, o rechazados, eso es normal en esta situación. En lugar de reprimir esos sentimientos, necesitan darse permiso para sentirlo todo.

Dile algo como: “No debería ser así,” “Lo siento mucho, esto tiene que ser muy dificil,” o “Yo me sentiría así también.”

4. Diles que no es su culpa

Después de dar una charla a unos estudiantes universitarios, un estudiante me dijo que su padre aún la culpa por su divorcio que pasó hace 10 años. Es difícil de creer, lo se.

Ahora, yo dudo que la mayoría de los padres culpen a sus hijos por su divorcio. Pero los niños pueden ser tentados a hecharse la culpa por el divorcio. O podrian pensar que lo pudieran haber prevenido.

Entonces hay que decir: el divorcio no fue to culpa. Tu no lo causaste. No hay nada que pudieras haber hecho para evitarlo.

5. Apóyalos

Cuando algo malo pasa en la vida, naturalmente queremos arreglarlo y minimizar el sufrimiento. Pero con frequencia la mejor respuesta al sufrimiento de otros es simplemente tu presencia. Solo tienes que estar con ellos durante su sufrimiento, como dice la psicoterapeuta Megan Devine en este video.

Por lo tanto, asegúrese de que sepan que tú estás ahí para ayudarlos. Diles que no están solos y que pueden hablar contigo cuando lo necesiten.

Y de cualquier manera que sea apropiada, asegúrate de que sepan que son amados. Porque lo más probable es que en este momento no se sientan amados.

6. Anímalos a escribir un diario

Anímalos a escribir sobre lo que está sucediendo y cómo se sienten al respecto. En su libro, Emotional Agility, la psicóloga de Harvard, Dra. Susan David, explica los beneficios de escribir sobre eventos emocionalmente significativos en nuestras vidas.

En resumen, los estudios muestran que quienes escriben sobre eventos emocionalmente significativos experimentaron un aumento en el bienestar físico y mental, fueron más felices, menos deprimidos y menos ansiosos. Miles de estudios han confirmado estos y otros beneficios.

Así que anímalos a escribir. Si lo necesitan, cómprales un diario.

7. Deja que descancen

Ellos probablemente necesitan un respiro de lo que está sucediendo en casa si las cosas estan muy intensas. Es posible que deban quedarse contigo, un familiar o un amigo de confianza de la familia. Podría ser por un fin de semana, una semana, un mes o incluso por un tiempo prolongado.

8. Diles que Dios no quiere esto

Si son religiosos, probablemente les cueste entender por qué Dios permitiría que esto sucediera.

Es importante que sepan que Dios no quiere que esto suceda. Odia que esto esté sucediendo. De hecho, la Biblia dice que odia el divorcio (Malaquías 2:16). Incluso si es necesario y la elección correcta en una situación particular, no es el ideal que Él desea. Pero Él está ahí con ellos en medio del dolor.

9. Ayúdalos a establecer límites saludables

Necesitan saber que está bien establecer y hacer cumplir límites con mamá y papá. Por ejemplo, si papá dice cosas malas sobre mamá, ellos pueden y deben decir: "Papá, me duele cuando dices esas cosas sobre mamá. ¿Podrías por favor no hablar de mamá cuando estoy cerca?".

Además, asegúrate de que sepan que, siendo niños, no deben ser el apoyo emocional de sus padres. En mi experiencia he visto lo perjudicial que esto puede ser para los niños.

Entonces, se necesitan límites. Anímalos a decir cosas como: "Mamá, sé que esto es muy difícil para ti. Pero es muy difícil escuchar todo esto. ¿Podrías hablar con un amigo o con alguien más sobre todo esto? Quiero amarte. Pero necesito hacerlo de otra manera."

10. Muéstrales buenos matrimonios

Ver el matrimonio de nuestros padres desmoronarse generalmente nos hace creer que el amor y el matrimonio no duran. Y entonces, podemos huir de ello. Incluso si superamos ese miedo y tratamos de construir un amor duradero, nuestro concepto del amor y del matrimonio se hecha a perder. En pocas palabras, no tenemos un mapa para entender el amor.

Esto no se puede solucionar de la noche a la mañana. Y puede que ahora no sea el momento adecuado para abordar este problema. Pero una forma de sanar nuestro concepto equivocado del amor y el matrimonio es mostrarnos cómo se supone que debe ser un buen matrimonio. No en teoría, sino en la realidad.

Y así, si tienes un buen matrimonio (no perfecto, sino bueno) invítalos a pasar tiempo contigo y tu familia. Si no, haz arreglos para que pasen tiempo con una buena pareja y su familia.

Este consejo no es suficiente

Aunque el consejo anterior es útil, no es suficiente. Ellos necesitan más ayuda. Por eso es que Restored existe: para ayudar los niños de divorciados. Ofrecemos la orientación práctica y el apoyo que necesitan para sanar y crecer del trauma de la separación o el divorcio de sus padres, para que puedan sentirse completos nuevamente y ser felices. Así que invítalos a escuchar nuestro podcast o envíales los capítulos gratuitos de nuestro nuevo libro, No Es Tu Culpa.

Creemos que no deberían tener que afrontar esto solos. Estamos aquí para brindarles la ayuda que merecen.

PD: el consejo anterior supone que existe confianza entre tú y la persona cuyos padres se están separando o divorciando.Si no es el caso, empieza por construir una relación para que confíen en ti. Puedes ser vulnerable con ellos, para que se sientan cómodos abriéndose a usted.

---

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#121: A Cure for Feeling Needy or Helpless | Margaret Vasquez

So many people from broken families struggle with feeling helpless or needy. Our efforts to heal or grow might even feel fruitless like tires spinning in mud that never gain traction. We put in effort in learning, but transformation isn’t happening. 

Whether that describes you or someone you know (like a friend, parent, or anyone else), this episode will help you!  In it, you’ll learn: 

• The simple solution to beat neediness and helplessness

• Why struggles are actually good for you

• The most important question you can ask to move beyond grief

Margaret’s Website

Dakota Lane Fitness

Buy Margaret’s Book: Fearless

Buy Margaret’s Book: Fearless

Buy Margaret’s Book: More Than Words

Get Margaret’s Course: Broken to Whole

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

[00:00:00] So many people like us who come from broken families struggle with feeling helpless and even needing, we might even feel like we're too much for the people around us and our efforts toward healing and growth might feel kind of fruitless. Like we're spinning our tires in mud, but we're never really getting anywhere.

Now, maybe that's not you, but maybe you know, someone who struggles in that area, a friend, a parent, a boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever, either way, this episode is going to help you in it. You're going to learn things like the simple solution to beat neediness and helplessness from a trauma therapist. Why struggles are actually good.

For you, what this looks like, if you have a disability, we answer the question, does grieving have a place? And the most important question that you can ask to move beyond grief. Again, if you've struggled with feeling like you're too much, feeling helpless, stuck or needy, or maybe you know someone who struggles in that way, this episode is for you.

It's for you. Stay with us.

 [00:01:00] Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 121. As we often say in the show, we're so happy that this podcast has been helpful and even healing for you.

We've heard so much great feedback. One listener said this. Only God knows where I would be if this ministry didn't exist. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out, eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach. We're going to Who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot in a [00:02:00] gym Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? Three things. One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy ripped dude. He's also a good virtuous man to not just caught up in his body and his looks to, he actually studied to become a priest for a little while.

And from that experience and his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body. We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free.

to love. And the third thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people, you know, get ripped, but to lead them to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this. [00:03:00] Dakota Lane changed my life, and the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have experienced, just go to DakotaLaneFitness. com or click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez. Margaret holds a bachelor's degree in theology and a master's degree in counseling, both from Franciscan University of Steubenville.

She is a licensed professional clinical counselor with supervisory designation, holds numerous trauma certifications, is certified in Myers Briggs, and is the founder and director of Sacred Heart Healing Ministries. For the past 18 years she has treated clients of all ages from all around the world.

She's appeared on numerous episodes of Women of Grace on EWTN as well as many radio shows and podcasts. She's the author of More Than Words, The Freedom to [00:04:00] Thrive After Trauma and Fearless, Abundant Life Through Infinite Love. She hosts the Wholeness and Holiness podcast, a weekly podcast on human and spiritual integration.

She provides healing missions. Uh, retreats, one week, uh, individual healing programs and intensive trauma therapy. Her passion is for all people to come to know the surpassing love of God. And lastly, she is the instructor of our video course at Restored called Broken to Whole Tactics to Heal from Your Parents Divorce.

And so if you're interested in that, I'll tell you more at the end, how you can get that it's free actually right now. It might change in the future, but I'll tell you more at the end of this episode. And by the way, in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that this is not a religious podcast. If you don't believe in God, I would just challenge you to listen with an open mind. Um, even if you're to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit so much from this episode. If you do have kids around, I recommend just maybe putting in some earphones because we do talk about some [00:05:00] mature topics in this episode.

And finally, we do jump back and forth a bit between the mental and emotional aspects of this problem of neediness, helplessness. Um, and so in my mind, those are distinct different things. Uh, but in this conversation, we kind of meld them together. And so when you hear the word mental, you can also think of the word emotional too.

With that, here's my conversation with Margaret. Margaret, welcome back. So good to have you. It's always great to be with you, Joey. I wanted to dive right in. There's, I think this temptation we all face, all of us when it comes to healing and growth, and that is that we consume information, right? We listen to podcasts, we read books, we attend retreats, all really good things to gain knowledge, but we never really take action on what we're learning.

Like we don't transform, we don't apply what we've learned. And it's kind of crass, but I've heard some people say that You know, it's kind of like a mental masturbation where we get this high from learning, but it doesn't really lead to much. And so two questions there, what's happening here and why do we do [00:06:00] that?

Actually, even though it is crass, I like that, that explanation because it doesn't bear fruit and it just creates like a lot of emotion. You know what I mean? So just a lot of emotion. There's a lot of feeling going on, but like there's no fruit the same as masturbation. So, so there is a, to me it, it kind of fits.

So what's going on there. I, I kind of look at it, like come from a number of places. I actually had a person, this person was actually a friend, not a client, but. Um, said to me, now had been through definitely painful growing up, painful childhood, but this person actually said, no, it's not fair for me to have to basically, she was talking about taking care of herself emotionally.

Um, nope, it's not fair. I deserve to have been taken care of by somebody else as a child. And so I'm not going to take care of me now. And I was just like shocked that anybody would actually say, we're, we're not friends anymore. It was not based on that. There was, there's more to it than that. But, but I just was like, wow, how astounding that [00:07:00] somebody would actually be cognizant of that.

And then just deciding like, no, it's not fair. And so I'm not going to do that. I think for some people, I like to think that for people, it, It can maybe even more often not be something that they're consciously aware of and maybe that they feel like they're, um, like they can't take care of themselves.

Like they're, you know, incapable. Maybe it's more of that. I, I like to think that because it's hard for, hard for me to think somebody just decides like to dig their heels in and refuse, you know, so then it leads to outsourcing that care of our emotional selves to other people because my, my My need for emotional self care isn't going to go away.

My own personal growth and responsibility and the need for that isn't going to go anywhere. And if I'm not taking care of it myself, then gonna intentionally or unintentionally kind of be approaching the world with kind of, um, I'd look at it like constantly job posting. Right. Here's my, here's my unpublished classified ad of like, are you my, are you [00:08:00] know, or the, the little kid book, right?

Are you my mommy? Do you remember that book? The little bird, the little bird falls out of his nest and he's walking through and he's asking like this big bulldozer, like, are you my mommy? And he's like walking through like the world. Are you my mommy? We kind of end up walking through the world kind of with this attitude, like, are you my mom?

Are you my dad? Will you take care of me? Sort of thing. If we're not doing it ourselves, because that, I look at it like that need for, for self care, for kind of, for parenting doesn't go away. Just when we hit 18 or move out of our parents homes or whatever, but it becomes incumbent on us to do that ourselves.

Of course, finding the right resources. And, and of course, all of this would be it from my perspective, relying on, on the Lord's help, but then it's kind of taking on the mind of Christ towards that care to be that need for love directed to him first. But then I have to, like, actually change my self talk to line up with his, because if I'm going, like, God make me feel [00:09:00] loved, but then my constant self talk is I'm terrible and everybody's better than me and, you know, God couldn't really love me because if you knew how I'm, all the different, you know, ways I'm terrible, like, you know, you'd understand.

So we just deflect his love, right? So we kind of go to him with this, this big bowl, asking him to fill it, and we have a lid on it. You know, or can kind of look at it like our, our metaphorical love bucket, and we're just poking holes in it. And so, you know, he's pouring Niagara Falls into it, but at the end of the day, it's still empty because of all the holes I've jabbed in it.

So then we still end up feeling empty. And so then we turn to, you know, the person who's right in front of us to get that need met. 100%. And I, I think one thing to add there too is like, you said this so well, there is a real need there. It's just a matter of like, how do you go about filling that need?

We're not like putting that down. We're not saying, you know, you don't need other people in your life. We're just saying the relationships just need to be healthy. Right. And we need to go to God first. And then from there, you know, we can experience the love [00:10:00] of other people and that could be incredibly healing.

Um, but if things are upside down, then it just becomes this, you said before this vicious cycle where there's a lot of. Motion or, you know, we never like gained ground basically, there's a lot of like movement, but never gaining any ground and I think not only is it frustrating for the people in your life around you who might be like trying to help you, but it's also frustrating for you because it's like, man, I just seem like just stuck like I got and I might be moving my feet a lot, but I'm never moving forward.

Yeah, and you know, I remember being in that spot like, you know, before I went through trauma therapy, actually, because I was just in such an emotionally needy spot. And I didn't really understand how these I feel like we don't get taught how these things fit together, you know, but I'm working on a book on that.

But, um, Without understanding how these things work together, um, on a very, uh, just kind of, just even visceral, like, level, like, feeling such a desperate need for love, like, kind of being in that, in that place, like that job posting thing. it ends up leading to rejection [00:11:00] because that, that neediness, right?

And then that becomes, and I think it leads to rejection because others have their hands full taking care of their own emotional selves and their lives, right? And so when we kind of have that feeling like somebody's trying to get from me what I'm, I'm busy over here doing it for myself. Like you do it for yourself too.

And like, it'll be fine. Then we can relate to each other like adults and from a place of peace instead of you're trying to get from me what Only the Lord can do for you. And then you need to really, um, really receive and, and take on and, and kind of do for yourself as well. If we're not doing that, right, if we're outsourcing that to someone else, they're kind of, whether they're cognizant of it or not, it kind of makes us feel like our insides are twisting, you know, and we're like, it's kind of an icky feeling.

And so we just kind of, we inadvertently like, Push that person away. And so then to the, being the person on that end, it's a feeling of rejection. And, and so I think the cycle is then the person becomes [00:12:00] that much more, they don't understand. That dynamic. Right. And so then they really internalize the way their behavior is being responded to as being essential to who they are.

Does that make sense? Like, I'm rejectable. I'm not lovable. I'm like, no, you're fine. Like, just don't do that. Like, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I think it really creates like a vicious cycle. No, I couldn't agree more. And I think the experience and we are like, we're empathizing with people who've been there.

Cause I've been there too, where you just feel this immense amount of need. Like you feel the real need underneath it all and you just take it to the wrong source. Like I've, I've done that, but I think this experience of feeling like you're too much, I've heard people say that a lot. Like, I feel like I'm just too much, like no one can really handle me.

There can then be that, like you said, that regression where it's like, well, this is just the way that I am. And other people aren't strong enough to handle my stuff. Therefore, I'm doomed to this life of loneliness and, you know, self pity and all this, all this stuff. That's really, it's depressing and sad.

And [00:13:00] again, I've been there. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be like that. I think just understanding how it works then is really a game changer because the way I see it is like. We each plug into the Lord first, and I don't mean first, like, okay, first, like, that, that box is checked, now moving on to time to plug into somebody else.

No, it's like, that's a foundational source. And if we do that and staying connected in that way. Now he's going to be able to supply all of those emotional needs like infinitely more than we could ask or imagine and even if we don't feel it in a warm fuzzy way all the time, right? But the more I begin to like align my way of seeing myself with how he sees myself.

he sees me, then like St. Thomas Aquinas says, what's received is received according to the mode of the receiver, right? So if my mode is, I'm not lovable, I can participate in whatever workshops or listen to whatever homilies or talks or teachings or read whatever self help books or whatever. [00:14:00] And I'm never going to come to a different way of seeing myself because my mode is, I'm not lovable.

So I'll just deflect everything else like, well, if you knew my past or if you knew this or if you knew that, or I'm not like other people who are special or whatever, you know, and so then we end up not receiving that stuff. I also, I also think there's a way I remember this myself, like when I was in that, More of that, you know, needy.

I hate that word because I was in that spot for so long. But when I was in that spot, like, I remember it seemed like there was, um, almost like a different species of people that it was just easy for. Do you know what I mean? And like, I wasn't like those people. And so those people needed to take care of people like me, you know, or something.

Right. And then the more you really kind of do this internal work and realize like, okay, kind of, there's a, I think there's a way where in the beginning it's a lot of work, right? But the more you get that in place, then it becomes like having pipes running water into your house, [00:15:00] right? When When the pipes are first being laid, I'm sure that's a lot of work.

I've never done anything like that, but I'm sure it's a lot of digging and, and like, oh my goodness and heavy and, and all the stuff. But once it's going, then, okay, there's a flow to it. And it's not so much work going forward. Right. But, um, but it's not like that, that person who has the flow going is, is in any way inherently different than anybody else.

And. If, you know, somebody that let's say the have like, okay, I'm going to be really nice and go outside of myself and take care of this person in an ongoing way. Not that we, you know, aren't generous and charitable and whatever, but in an ongoing way, the fostering of that dependency does no big picture kind of favor for that person who's in that have not spot.

If anything, it just is going to. Unintentionally, but like reiterate the message that you're not like me, you're not capable and [00:16:00] peace and contentment is contingent on me instead of on, you know, on the Lord and your ability to, um, to really foster that relationship and take on the mind of Christ for yourself and, and that kind of thing.

So good. There's so much that I want to comment on. One of the things I just wanted to say was, I think what goes along with this neediness and relying on people in, you know, unhealthy ways, is that we are almost like afraid of solitude. I think solitude gets kind of a bad rap because it's so important for growth, right?

We have to like sit alone, like with ourselves and like you said with God too, and kind of face ourselves. And I noticed in myself when I was kind of in these ruts of down spiraling into self pity and neediness, I was kind of trying to avoid that. I was trying to avoid facing myself because it was scary, it was intense or whatever.

And I think like when that's your posture of like, no, no, no, I'm going to take this fight, like, where it needs to go. I'm going to face myself. I'm going to work on myself. I'm going to actually transform. At that point, [00:17:00] plugging the right people into your life who can help you accomplish that is beautiful.

Like, I've had mentors come along me, like, spiritual directors, therapists, like, who then helped me achieve that. But I'm not looking to them to do it for me. And, and like the author John Eldredge says, this kind of dynamic can often happen with men and women. Um, where men, if they don't know that they're men, if they haven't like received that strength, that affirmation from other men, then they'll often go to women seeking that strength.

For the woman to like give him that strength. And it's just not positive. It's not how we're made. We can't do that. And so there's just this like, Constant, vicious cycle of like, you know, I need you to be, like you said, my mom and give me strength and affirmation when it's like, no, you need to go to God and other men in your life to receive that strength.

And then you have that strength to offer to the people in your life, especially, you know, like your spouse, which I think is really, really good and beautiful. And so I think that there's a difference in posture when you go to mentors to kind of, you know, fill the need for you versus help you fill the need [00:18:00] yourself.

Yeah, and, and I would even say, like, so here's a feminine perspective on that, but I think you can even see that, um, not so much as the man, um, sometimes, right, but I'm just saying, like, what initially comes to mind when you say that is, like, kind of a, kind of a weak man's kind of like, you know, kind of more wimpy or whatever.

But it, it can be insidious, right? It can also be the man who, who seeks out really weak women always has to be with a damsel in distress, right? I have to find somebody to rescue because that makes me feel strong. And I see that, I see that a lot. I see a lot of times like men are just Men just being attracted to like weakness because, because it makes him feel strong.

But the sad thing in that is like, okay, if she ends up getting help and really becoming the fullness of who God's created her to be, that's going to change up that dance. And is it going to so threaten you and, and, you know, destroy the relationship because you don't want anybody being locked into, you know, we can, a way that's not [00:19:00] who the who God created him to be, right?

We're all called to grow into the full stature of Christ, you know. That's so good. And I think we're hitting the right balance here because we, I want to, for anyone who's stuck in this situation right now, I want you to know, like, we feel you, like we get where you are. We've been there, like, we're not putting you down in any way, but we love you too much to leave you there.

We want to help you. Get to the spot where we know that you're going to be more functional, healthier, and then thrive and experience a lot of joy. Like, there's a lot of joy that comes along with learning how to stand on your own two feet, having the backbone, being able to, you know, relate to others in like healthy ways and not go to them to just, again, be constantly pouring into this kind of endless hole, this bottomless pit.

Right. And the, and the lies, um, that that cycle. Tells you isn't fair to you because they're because they're lies. Like, it's not the truth. There's nothing inherent about you and who you are. Right. And so, so just understanding how these things fit together, I think, can kind of pull the curtain back on that.

I mean, like, what? Like, this isn't who I am. Like, you know, if it [00:20:00] wasn't who you are, and it's not who I am. And like, there must be There must be something to this because we were both in those spots and now, you know, not that there isn't still ongoing, you know, growth, hopefully there is for everybody as long as we're breathing, right?

I think that's good news, though, you know, not bad news. And so just understanding how it fits together and that, you know, if people are relating to you in a way that feels like consistently rejecting, you know, then it's not about who you are, like plug into the Lord first. Honestly, you know, there was a point number of years ago, well, early years of practice, I remember thinking like, okay, the people in my world, because I'm, single and live alone.

The people in my world who need from me are really basically clients. So if I'm walking into the office to see somebody, that's somebody who's, who's in need, which is true, but it came to realize like, no, every time I walk outside of my house, there's people in need, you know? [00:21:00] And so it doesn't become my job to take care of them.

Like I'm, I'm, I'm not the Messiah, of course, still being kind and charitable and just kind of understanding that, that a lot of people are coming from a place of, even if they might seem like the ones that are the haves, right? You know, relational or emotional haves at any given time, every day has.

Troubles enough of its own as scripture says, you know, and there's everybody's fighting a great battle. You know, another famous quote, you know, kind of thing, but just a always kind of, in my mind, I picture it like pipes, right? Like if I, if I keep the end of my pipe, like connected to the Lord, then I look at myself as the desire.

To be like a conduit of grace, but it's his grace. It's not my grace. If I'm supposed to be a source of grace, I'm tapped out before I get out of bed. You know what I mean? Like there's none there. But if we're plugging into the Lord, then anybody, even the people who feel like they're in that have not spot, we [00:22:00] can get to a place of feeling like we're starting with the needle on full instead of on empty.

You know, and I think that's really possible for everybody. No, I totally agree. And I think like, yeah, knowing those healthy limits is so good at both for yourself and in relationship to other people. Um, yeah. And it ends up again, making you healthier, happier. It's so good. And it just opens up. Uh, doors that maybe you don't even think are possible to open.

You don't even know because you haven't been there yet, but I promise it's, it's worth it. But, uh, one final analogy. And then I wanted to share something from kind of the art world, uh, on this topic. So one analogy I like to think of when it comes to this, like, how do you, you know, kind of rely on people in an unhealthy way?

And I think athletics is a great analogy. So if you think about it, you know, I was a baseball player for years, play different sports like football, volleyball, things like that. But it's like, you know, the coaches were there to help me. Yeah. But they weren't going to lift the weights for me, you know, they weren't going to like run the sprints, they weren't going to field the ground balls, they weren't going to spend hours in the batting cage, like, I had to do that.

They were going to be there to like show [00:23:00] me, um, you know, they were going to be there to like support me, to help me, to, to guide me, um, but they weren't going to get in there and do it for me. And I remember hearing this quote from Dave Ramsey too, he said, you know, God feeds the birds, but he doesn't throw the worms in the nest.

Like you got to get after it. And I think, I think there's so much truth to that. And I think that could feel difficult for some people if you're like really in a tough rut. But, um, but it is, I think taking that ownership and being like, okay, maybe you were dealt a tough hand in life, but it's like, you know, I don't have a say necessarily over what happened to me.

But from this moment on, I am taking ownership of the solution of my life. Like, I'm not going to let that. Write my story. Like I want to write my own story. And I think there's a lot of beauty there. And a lot of people I've seen who've like transformed their lives, like they take that perspective. And one of my recent guests, Stacy, she said something like, um, broken is what happened to me, not who I am.

So often we walk through life thinking like, well, I'm just really broken and I'm always going to be like this. And, you know, again, there's a point to grieving. We'll get to that a little bit [00:24:00] later, but at some point we got to like, you know, get after it, move on. Yeah. Yeah. And shame on your coach. If they did do the train, the sprints and the batting cage and everything for you, because it cripples you and they're just getting stronger and stronger and stronger.

So there's a quote, I'm 99 percent sure the, the person this is attributed to is a guy named Frank layman, Frank P layman, not sure who he is, but I just remember coming across it at one point and it says the kids, the world. Almost breaks become the ones most likely to change it. And it's just, it's beautiful.

Isn't it like that having, having been one of those kids, like it's that just like tugs at my heart every time. But I think there's something to that. I think there's a lot of hope in that. If you feel like you're somebody who's in that spot, then that means like. You have a secret insight into the world and pain in a way that God can really use, you know, for you to be a very particular conduit of grace or healing or, you know, whatever it is [00:25:00] in, in the lives of others or, you know, those around you or through your ministry.

No, so good. And that like gave me the chills, that quote, and it fires me up because like, yeah, I want to be that person, right. For other people just to speak vulnerably. And yeah, no, it's beautiful. Uh, switching from sports to art. So I think one of the other aspects to this whole struggle is that there's a lot of, um, comfort.

in the familiarity. Like, like there's this weird thing that we kind of are comfortable in our own misery. Sure. Um, even if it's something that's bad for us, it's not leading us to a better place. And so, um, the, the rapper NF, he's like this clean rapper. He has a song called happy. Are you going to wrap this?

I think you should wrap it, Joey. So it's him, you know, singing actually to God of all people. So he's singing to God and in the song he raps these lines, which I won't make you all suffer through for me, but, but it's, it's really, really good stuff. So he says, he says, I don't know why, but I feel more comfortable living in my agony, watching my self [00:26:00] esteem go up in flames, acting like I don't care.

When anyone else thinks when I know truthfully, That, that's the furthest thing from how I feel, but I'm too proud to open up and ask you to pick me up and pull me out this hole I'm trapped in. The truth is I need help, but I just can't imagine who I'd be if I was happy. Yeah. So, so anyway, there's a few different things going on there.

Like, obviously like the one point of like, it's not bad to ask for help. We're just saying to do it in the right way. So he kind of hits on that. I just wanted to clarify that point. Um, but really that like, man, we're just comfortable. And kind of the status quo, and I think it's really important to break out of that.

So how do we break out of that and take action? I think taking action is breaking, is how we break out of it. I don't, I don't know that there's ever a point when it just becomes easy in the beginning, right? It becomes easier by doing it. It's like lifting, right? Like lifting weights, the weight becomes lighter.

The more you lift it, but if it's something that's going to cause you to grow when you walk up to it, it's heavy initially, right? You have to have to start pumping [00:27:00] it. And anytime we, you know, especially going back to the sports analogy, having played sports as well, we don't have muscle memory of something yet.

Right. Feels really awkward, right? It's like, am I doing this right? Like, you know, I don't know. It just, you're having to concentrate on, you know, batting, right? Your stance, where are my feet? How am I holding my elbows? How am I following through? Like, okay. Oh, watch the ball. That's a thing too. Like trying to put all these things together at the same time and not get beamed in the head, you know, and like, whatever.

But the more you do it, the more natural it becomes. And to the point where it's just, yeah, you don't even have to think about it. You just, you just get up there and you're, you know, it just feels right and flows, you know, and, um, actually becomes relaxing and enjoyable, you know, and then pretty soon you don't even, somebody else has to point it out to you that you're, that you're doing it, you know, and maybe not in terms of batting, but living in a, in a healthy place or from that place of wholeness.

I [00:28:00] think if we wait, if we, Wait to want to do it or wait to feel equipped to do it or comfortable doing it, like, we'll just be, we'll just keep on waiting, you know, I think it's, yeah, it's just beginning to just, yeah, just starting, just starting and you tweak as you go and you grow as you go and learn more, but you got to start, you got to start.

Yeah. And no, that's so good. And I think, um, That's like the scariest thing for people. It's just starting. I could use another analogy like the business world, right? It's a, it's a scary thing to start a business. Um, it's intimidating. There's a complexity to it. There's all these steps that you probably know nothing about.

And a lot of people, they like wait, right? There's risk. Like, yeah, you can lose money. Like you can, you know, maybe put yourself in a really difficult situation economically. Like all these things are so much. That goes into it, but it's, um, you know, a lot of people then have this perspective of like, well, I'm just going to wait till I'm ready.

And the really interesting paradox is like, you're never actually going to be ready. The only way that you'll be quote [00:29:00] unquote ready is by actually like taking action and like learning what you need to know in order to take just like the next step. And then you, then you knock down that barrier and then you go to the next barrier and knock down that barrier.

And then you go to the next one. And that's basically entrepreneurship. It's just like a load of just like knocking things down. And then you're, you know, you look up and you're like, Oh wow, I didn't feel like I was ready. I just did it anyway. And as I did now, I see like, wow, I'm like this far up the mountain and this is great.

And I got a lot further to go. But man, if I was waiting to be, you know, Get maybe, you know, one analogy would be like to get all this like perfect training or have like all the perfect people in your life who could tell you exactly what to do in any given situation. It's like, good luck. You really need to just like, you know, again, not saying that advice and guidance and learning isn't a good thing, but if it's just substituted for action, you're just digging yourself into a hole.

Yeah, I mean, something we've all experienced, whether we're business owners or athletes or not, right, is [00:30:00] like being a baby. And like crawling and then walking, like if a baby just sits here and ponders crawling and, and, you know, mommy plays a lot of YouTube videos about how to crawl properly. Like it's never gonna, they're never going to get across the room until they start doing it, you know, even though, you know, I know you have a little girl, so like, you know, first baby has their butt stuck way up in the air and they're like trying to, they can't manage their body weight, you know, and so they, push themselves forward.

Maybe they bonk their head as they, you know, haven't quite figured out how to move their arms in, you know, synchronicity with their legs and that bilateral kind of motion or what, but it's by doing it that, that we've, that we learned to do it. So you have done it before, like everybody listening to this has done it before, you know.

As long as it's somebody who's already crawled. No, no. So good. And I want to circle back to an important point of like disability at some point. We'll come back to that in a little bit later, but two, two things I wanted to mention on the side of like being the coach or the parent, right. Um, [00:31:00] you actually have to let your kids struggle, which is hard.

Like, there's this real temptation when you're, you see someone you love who's struggling to let them kind of continue going down that path. And it's really important, like, when your kid's learning to crawl or walk, like, they're gonna take some falls. Like, the goal, you know, there, at least as a parent, which is a little bit of a different role, is like, you kind of want to make the environment somewhat safe so that they're not gonna, like, get really hurt.

You know, to the point where that would just be damaged to them. Right. But if they feel some pain, if they feel some hurt, as opposed to like the harm that we're talking about, um, then, then that's not a bad thing and that's something you just have to kind of go through. And so, um, yeah, I think that's, that's a hard lesson on the being on the side of someone who wants to help, which I know we have people like that listening now too.

Um, but the other thing I was going to say is. When it comes to like just starting. So yeah, you're right. Like there's people who will read books about any number of skills, like, you know, playing the violin. If we want to throw another analogy, it's like, great. Like you can read and watch videos and do all that thing, but all that stuff.

But if you just pick up the violin and start playing, you're going to learn way more. And then that actually, [00:32:00] that stuff will actually become useful than if you were to just like, you know, continue just learning, learning, learning. And the other thing I was going to say, I think a lot of people get discouraged to even act because they look around them and they see people who are like so much further ahead and they compare themselves.

And, and the comparison leads them not to motivation where like, Oh, wow. I admire what they've achieved. I want to achieve that too. I'm going to kind of try to learn from them and do it myself. Um, it, it can really lead to like, well, I'm never going to be like that. Or they were so much further ahead. How could I ever catch up?

And, uh, I think, you know, one quote I heard is like, don't compare your behind the scenes with everyone else's highlight reels, because you're seeing someone who's likely putting a lot of effort over a lot of time, or maybe they just had like a different environment growing up, whatever had, maybe they started a little higher in the mountain.

And so we can't just like have that comparison. The comparison should just be used for inspiration. And then it's like, no, now I'm just going to fight my battle. Uh, the only person I'm competing against is myself. And I'm just going to keep trying to get better and better and better slowly. And that's another thing too.

It's like the slow progress, like so [00:33:00] much of. I mean, maybe this is just American culture, but I think that applies around the world. A lot of times it's like, we just want to see results instantly. It's like, okay. I mean, if you go to the gym for a week, like your body's not going to transform. You go for a month.

Your body's not going to really transform. You might get a little stronger. You go for six months. Okay. You're going to transform a bit, but it's not going to be like completely different. You go for a year. Okay. Now, now we're starting to see more results. You go for years. Now we're seeing like an incredible transformation.

But we all want to do like 30 days or like a couple months and see these incredible results. That's just not how it works. Yeah. Talking about the comparison thing, like it makes me think of what you and I were talking about before we started recording and that was my concussions, right? So just that I had had nine concussions, um, all sports and car accidents and didn't realize how much I was affected by those.

But just recently having treated with a functional neurologist. And having, like, amazing results [00:34:00] from that, then, like, what people probably didn't know about me before was, like, I couldn't read. I didn't read going through college. Thank the Lord I'm an auditory learner. But, you know, somebody sees, like, you know, People relate to me sometimes as like, Oh, like you're on a certain sort of pedestal, you know, and you're like these people would say, have you read and that's all they'd have to say to my mind.

I'd be like, Nope, they wouldn't even have to say the name of the book. I'd be like, is it on an audible? You know, I've written a couple of books. I had to write the second one when the pandemic happened because I needed such uninterrupted time because it was. Words made sense coming out of my head, but I couldn't read over them to assess, okay, or pick back up when I left off, like, what was I saying and jump in?

They made no sense going in. So I had to have completely uninterrupted time to like, kind of dump it all out. But then even that going over edits and like, you know, is this a better way to say this or that? I don't know, because I don't know what I was saying to begin with. So, but you know, when, [00:35:00] Not that they're great works of erudition or anything or, or war and peace or something, but, but people see, you know, you've written a couple of books or you're a therapist, you have, you know, you're on podcasts or whatever.

Yeah, I was riding the struggle bus like big time. I couldn't read, you know, my goodness. So yeah, so it's, it's amazing. Like, like exactly like you were saying about like seeing the highlight reels and not what's going on on the backside, like it's really struggling through, but by the same token, the Lord allowed that struggle, right?

Until 54 years old. And he said, when you're talking about parents or coaches, like letting people struggle, that's how God did. I look back at it now, I'm like, wow, I feel like so charged up for like, oh my goodness, like glad that I didn't just kind of sit and be like, oh, well, I can't do it. And because, you know, it's kind of like, right when you get into the, um, when you're on deck as a baseball player.

What's that little ring that you, that you drop on the bat that like adds weight to it. Right. [00:36:00] So, okay. Yeah. Right. So it makes it heavier. Right. So then when you get up and you actually are swinging, like you can like, bring that bat around, like really forcefully because you were trying to do it like where it was like a lot more challenging and now it feels easier.

Right. So, so I kind of look at it like struggle struggle is a good thing, but I think we should normalize. Struggle like struggle should be bad because we're not struggling in some some way like we're not growing, you know No, 100 percent and I I was listening to a podcast recently by like, uh, I think it was a maybe a neurobiologist Anyway, he was talking about a part of our brain that literally doesn't get activated unless we're pushing beyond our limits And that, and that part of our brain, I can't remember the details, I'm sorry, but that part of our brain is connected to like longevity, like how long we live in our life and like our ability to be productive and just be healthy people.

And so like that, that's such a good thing to struggle, like you said, and in the right context. Yeah, I [00:37:00] think the only way to not struggle is complacency. Yeah. Right? Like, cause there's always something to grow in, some area to grow in, you know. And one, one tip here, one tactic is like, if you are stuck in that rut of complacency and apathy and just like, you know, not able to take action, or you feel like you're not able to take action, you always are able to take action.

But you feel like you're not able to take action. I would maybe look at the people you're surrounding yourself with. Like, are they people who are maybe similar in the sense that they're kind of complacent and not taking action too. And then if you kind of slowly try to surround yourself with people, try to learn from people who are maybe doing what you want to do or be Who you want to become, something amazing will happen.

Like you literally will start kind of rising to that level over time. It doesn't happen all at once. Um, but there's even like data on this. I don't have the study in front of me, but you end up making like similar money to like your closest, like five friends, which is like bizarre if you think about it, um, Um, and I think there's something similar, like when it comes to fitness too, like if you're spending time around [00:38:00] people who like drink beer all the time and just like, don't take care of their bodies, you're probably going to end up being like that, as opposed to, you know, someone who spends time with people who like work out regularly and, you know, they eat clean and all that stuff.

So I think that's one kind of practical, cause I want to take this into the practical now too. Um, but before we maybe get further into that, some people might be thinking like, well, what about disabilities? I think this is an important nuance that we add here and I know maybe it's not an easy answer, but there are people who have legitimate disabilities.

Um, like we're not just talking about like maybe learned helplessness or victim mentality, which I know that's kind of in the tone of the conversation, but we're looking more at like, you know, um, I, you know, someone who may be with Down syndrome would be maybe an extreme example. Um, but I think maybe in the middle is a little bit more of a gray area and people might even get a diagnosis about something And then they maybe let that become the label and then know there's like danger and all that too.

So yeah, talk us through all of that. Like, what if, what if someone truly does have some sort of a disability? How do they then take what we're saying and, and act on it? Do you mean [00:39:00] like emotional disability, physical disability? Like what in a particular case? Thing you have in mind? Yeah. I mean, we could go any direction with this, but I guess since we're talking about like the emotional side, let's focus a little bit more on that.

And I don't know if, you know, something like bipolar disease would be something to throw in there, or maybe that's too extreme of an example, but yeah, just something where people can point to something else and kind of maybe say, well, I have this, therefore I can never become that. Yeah. I just look at diagnoses as they're just, um, they're a word that's used to describe a collection of.

Ways a person is struggling, right? I just look at, I look at a diagnosis as like, it's, um, it's a word that describes like how a person's doing. It's not who they are, right? Because you can think about people, even people under like, a disability. arduous circumstances or struggling in really very limiting ways and yet making huge impacts on the people around them by who they are.

And I think that's kind of maybe to take what [00:40:00] we're, what we're talking about, like kind of brings it together is like the, Taking action can sound a lot like about doing, but whatever we've seen is like when we get the being right, the doing flows and, and we as mental health, we are the first people to offend against this because we'll talk about dysfunction and I think dysfunction is, I'm trying to keep it clean, , but it's not accurate.

It's like, it's, it's a faulty place to start, right? Like dysfunction, like we should talk about dis being. Or, or dis essence or something, because that's the problem. When, when we get the being right, the doing flows, right? Like the Lord comes and talks about the Beatitudes. He's, he doesn't have to focus on the Ten Commandments.

He knows if we're living the Beatitudes, like the Ten Commandments are taken care of, you know, or like in therapy. Um, usually the beginning of the week, if I'm working with a child and I ask the parent, like, you know, what's going on, they'll describe the behavior. But the end of the week when I'm like, you know, what's going [00:41:00] on, they'll say, he's just so peaceful.

He's just so loving. I don't have to say like, is he still throwing tantrums and breaking things? And, you know, I mean, it's kind of, they'd look at me like I had three heads. Like, did you not hear me say? He's so peaceful, you know, and I think that if we focus more on our being, then the doing gets taken care of, right?

It'll flow. That makes sense. And so in that sense, like we're not limited, like our being would be how we would approach whatever diagnosis or whatever disability or whatever we have. There's still a you that is immutable in goodness and in the ability to strive towards being more. you know, plugged into the Lord.

I mean, even if a person just focuses on really receiving God's love and lining up their thoughts of, you know, I like to tongue in cheek say, if you disagree with how God sees you, you're probably the one who's in error. Like, probably just going to go out on a limb there, right? So if we even just focus on [00:42:00] that as I'm going to try to align how I see myself, how I relate to myself in terms of my self talk and self care more with how the Lord sees me.

And like, I think that's something that we're all capable of regardless of physical limitations or diagnosis or whatever. Right? And like, the more we're. plugged into that. I mean, God's all powerful and God is love. And the more we're plugged into his love and really receiving it, it's transformative, you know?

So I figure let him do the heavy lifting. Yeah. No, there's, there's a bunch of lessons in that. Um, one is we can prescribe or get our identity from, or describe ourselves, I guess. Based on a condition or an experience alone, like you're saying, and that's really what diagnoses are, right? It's just saying, well, you have these symptoms and therefore this is the condition that goes along with those symptoms.

Like I mentioned, bipolar disease or something like that. But you're right. You can't, you wouldn't like walk around and say, I am a bipolar man. Like maybe some people would say that, but this is kind of a weird thing to say. It's [00:43:00] not accurate in my mind. Can I jump on that? Because people. People do that regularly.

They'll say my bipolar or my anxiety or whatever. And even though that might be a common way to talk, like, it makes me bristle because I feel like that's, it's not who you are. And it's really dangerous to like, to cling to that in such a way that's, um, you know, Like ownership, you know, like, why would you want to own that in some sort?

I'm not saying be in denial about it. Okay. I'm struggling with anxiety, but I think that's, that sounds far different. And I think that even just the, what it kind of affects within the person is far different than saying my anxiety. It's like, are you aware there's a you that's immutable that's still going to remain like when the anxiety is gone or is like how you see yourself so wrapped up with your anxiety that we kind of have to pry it out of your, out of your hands, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I follow you. I think it just begins to form how we see ourselves. And, um, so again, not saying being [00:44:00] in denial about something, but as far as owning it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that's a good exercise where, you know, think through kind of how you would. Maybe describe yourself to something like a friend or someone you're meeting, or even just how you maybe think about yourself.

But I found it easier if there's like some sort of external person, maybe you're talking to and think through like, okay, how would I describe myself and try to differentiate between the things that are true to your identity. For example, you know, I'm a man, I'm American. I come from an Italian bloodline.

I, you know, all these things I could say that are just true to my identity compared to those things that maybe are just things that happened to you. Like I'm a child of divorce. Which, I kind of have a love hate relationship with that term, because it just describes something I've been through. It doesn't slap an identity on me, though it sounds like it does.

So I think differentiating between the two, um, is maybe a good exercise for people to do, if you guys want to. And then the other thing I was going to say, too, I want to nuance, I think, the action and being thing a little bit more for people. Um, I love what you're saying, and I think it's so true. I guess the one thing that I see maybe a little bit differently, [00:45:00] or just again, it's more of a nuance, is that There's often action needed to clarify the being, right?

Because even in the example, and I know you'd agree with this, but even the example of like the young person you were helping who, you know, their parent came in and was describing the dysfunction compared to the being at the end, the action that was between that change, that transformation was actually working with you, right?

And they were doing the work themselves, like the young person. You were just their guide and mentor, right? Um, but I think that's kind of an important distinction. So if someone's gonna just maybe looking in the mirror and being like, okay, like this is who I am, this is who I am. I think you're only going to get so far.

Um, there are certain actions that may be aligned with the identity that you, that that's true to you. Like, you know, I don't want to throw, you know, Too many more analogies around, but you know, thinking of like, there's a difference between being someone who like goes to the gym to someone who's like into fitness.

Like it's kind of becomes after so many actions, it eventually kind of is almost like integrated into your character. It becomes part of your being, so to speak. So I think there is like this interplay between action. And being, and I [00:46:00] think, and yeah, I know you'd agree with that, but I think it's important for everyone listening to think of it like through practically like, okay, how do I exactly change my being like, it sounds like we need to learn the truth about who we are.

That's important. That's knowledge. But then, you know, how do we then kind of make sure that we see ourselves that way and not some other way. Yeah, I think so. A couple things come to mind. One would be like, I think you had mentioned like that solitude can be very challenging. Right? So I would think like, and this is something that's that was a big game changer for me.

And it was like internal stance. So even though it was invisible, and it was about being, but it was actually doing something, it just wasn't like external action. So it was not external action. It was like, If I'm in a place of whether it's really having like good news to celebrate or something difficult that I'm suffering, to like go to the Lord with it first and share it with him first before I looked for, you know, the consolation or the joy of sharing it with somebody else.

Wow. Not that it's bad to do that. I'm [00:47:00] not saying that it's bad to have. human support and relationships, but it's the primacy of that relationship. It begins to build a foundation of his reliable and sense of intimacy by, with him and a sense of being known by him and that kind of thing as really like primary and foundational.

So, so it is more about being, even though it is action, right? You know what I'm saying? And another thing I think is to, if instead of, if there's like the, you know, that tendency to compare myself to people on the outside and somehow find myself lacking, then it would be to like set up incremental goals.

Like the goal doesn't have to be, you know, just being this in this super like great emotional spot. And I look like how I perceive these other people like, no, make the, make the goals like incremental, you know what I mean? Make them where it's just, did I turn to the Lord first? Like, right? Did I, did I turn to him first, right?

It doesn't have to be anything else because I can [00:48:00] control that. I think too often we can look at the outcome or the result that we don't necessarily have control over as opposed to looking at our effort and setting goals having to do with effort. No, I love that. That makes a lot of sense. It's like, okay, if you go back to weightlifting, it'd be like, I want my bicep to be.

This many inches. Well, okay, good luck. Like you don't know what's in your genetics or not, right? So you can contribute with, you know, diet and exercise, but you don't have control over how big your bicep is going to be. Like you don't, you know, but you have control over, am I going to go to work out this many times?

Am I going to eat right? Am I going to, you know, This many times a week or whatever, right? Like, so, um, so set goals by the effort instead of assessing it by the outcome. Okay. No, that's really good. And I'm sure there's so much more we can say, but I want to just kind of circle back to the whole disability thing.

I think one important distinction there is like, even if you're maybe so quote unquote, like handicapped in some way, or you feel handicapped in some way, it's like still do your best still, you know, [00:49:00] still like, again, try to compete against yourself, become better tomorrow than you are today. And I think a great example of this is I know just back up a little bit.

I do. I've heard of people. I don't know them personally who do have like bipolar disease, a disorder, sorry. And they are living like very like good lives. They're like, almost like, I guess you can say they're thriving, like they're able to, I hate the word manage it, but in some ways they're able to like, live with that thing that is maybe holding them back in some way, and I know this is a bigger conversation because I, like, you would probably think that well, if they maybe healed the trauma behind it, maybe that symptom or that condition would like, Wrap up all together.

That's a separate conversation, . So maybe this is a bad, uh, condition to pick, but No, no, that's fine. Yeah. I think there still are people, I mean, yeah, it's the ideology of meaning. Some people can be diagnosed with bipolar and it might not be an accurate diagnosis, but that's not to say the diagnosis doesn't exist at all.

Right? Yeah. But, but you can still live like a really good and beautiful and meaningful life. That's my whole [00:50:00] point. It's like, you sure absolutely don't, don't make that an excuse for not. You know, trying or not living like a good life. You still can. There's people who do. Yeah. In the show Reacher, actually, I don't know if people have seen that, you know, there's maybe some questionable content in it, but it's on Amazon Prime.

The show Reacher, like Tom Cruise did some movies years back about this, like, army investigator who, you know, Becomes a civilian. And anyway, he just like goes on and like solves these like crimes and things, but there's a show now with this actor who's just this enormous guy. And anyway, he's a great actor, but I just learned recently, I was listening to an interview.

Uh, he has bipolar and he is just like, from what I see, at least in some areas of his life, he's like kicking back, like he's doing really well. So it's really cool to like, look at people like that and see, okay. Sure. Even with maybe a little bit of a hand behind your back or something, you can still do really well.

And on that note, I just wanted to just share with people, there's this Navy SEAL. His name is Ryan Jobe. And cause again, people, I think we all can fall into this victim mentality and just think, well, I can't, I can't win. I'm just stuck. I just, you know, might as well just give up. And this [00:51:00] Navy SEAL, Ryan Jobe, he was in Iraq, you know, and they were clearing buildings one day when he got hit in the face with a sniper's bullet.

Okay. Rough situation. I didn't kill him, but in time he learned, like, he was completely blind. He, he wouldn't be able to see again, and he really, at that moment, could have just given up. Like, he truly could have. Like, it would have been, people, we all probably would have given someone of a pass, right?

Because of what he had been through. So he's, he's blind. Um, but he refused. He said, nope. Like, I'm not gonna give up. I'm not gonna let this condition, I'm not gonna let this injury define me. Like, I still want to live a good, beautiful, full life. And so, as a blind man, he did incredible things. He summited Mount Rainier, which is like over 14, 000 feet.

People, a few people, like, die every year climbing this. To give context, as a blind man, he did it. You need specialized gear. There's ice, typically. Like, it's, it's not an easy thing. He climbed the thing. He trained for a triathlon. Um, he earned his bachelor's degree with a 4. 0 GPA. He [00:52:00] successfully hunted an elk, uh, as a, as a blind man.

Uh, he married his girlfriend and, and they had a child. And so like hearing Ryan's story, it's like, well, yeah, his story could have ended very differently. But, but he just said, Nope, I'm not going to be a victim. I'm not, I will. Let me just clarify that he was a victim of, you know, an enemy fighter shooting him, but he said, I will not remain a victim.

I think there's so much power in that. And your favorite part's the elk, right? Yeah. Or the Navy SEAL part. I just love that. So Margaret, I feel there's so much more we can say, I guess, um, in closing up the conversation, just want to touch a little bit on grief. So I know through all of this, we're not saying that.

You know, if you've been through trauma, you can just kind of skip over it and just kind of toughen up and deal with it and move on, you know, uh, does grieving have its place? Yeah. I think anytime there's been a loss, you know, whether it's, uh, you know, realizing coming to grips with kind of like what that person had told me, that's not fair.

I deserve to have been taken care of as a child. Okay. Well, there's a grief there, [00:53:00] but you grieve it. The way to get to the other side of the grief is. That you do something different going forward, you know, and so, yeah, absolutely. It definitely has its place, but well, here we are sitting here, like getting ready to be at Easter.

So there's new life, like on the other side, and that's how you get to the new life is through the grieving. It's part of the process, but then doing something different going forward, right? To me as a person, like. Overcoming trauma and the doing something different going forward was the kind of in in my mind, like the bad guys don't get to win, you know, like my peace and contentment isn't contingent on somebody else.

And I can do what I can do to be able to to write a different story. Like that's not how the story ends kind of thing. No, I love that. And my kind of lay person definition of grief is really like the process of accepting the new reality after the loss. And so it's like getting to that point is going to involve, you know, a lot of the typical things people talk about with grief, there's going to be, you know, sadness, [00:54:00] there's going to be denial.

There's going to be, you know, maybe the whole bargaining thing where you think, well, maybe I could have done this differently and prevented that. It's going to be anger. There's going to, but eventually that acceptance I think is where we want to lead and it's a messy process. Like it's not linear and it does take time.

I don't want to pretend that it doesn't. But. I think if we, you know, look at someone who, you know, had a serious loss in their life, and it's like years and years later, I don't know if we could put an exact timeline on, like, when you should be beyond grief or whatever, but if it's years and years later, and they're still just like anchored on that grief, I think there's a problem there.

Because I think as helpful as all of that is, it's helpful, and I'm talking to myself as much as anyone, it's like, you know, I think it's easy to get caught up in the past and, you know, grieve and then we need to ask the question, like, now what? And I think part of the problem, especially in this topic of divorce, I want to like be very gentle here because so often when your family falls apart, there's a lot of dysfunction.

Your parents get divorced, like there's a separation, like whatever the particular case is for everyone listening. It's often just not even treated as a trauma. It's not even treated as something that you need to grieve. It's not even treated as a loss. And [00:55:00] so a lot of people might be showing up. To this episode or this podcast, just thinking that, well, you know, they're just learning that it was a loss.

Maybe they kind of felt that on some level, but it wasn't conscious. And then now they're like, okay, now I need to grieve that loss. Totally get that. And I just want to give you guys grace there, of course. Um, but we're kind of talking about the situation where the, you know, I think I've fallen to in the past where it's like, I'm just going to grieve perpetually forever, and I'm never going to kind of accept the new reality and move on in life.

And I think that's like really, really dangerous. Again, I think in time, we need to find meaning in the midst of our reality right now, today, learn how to accept it and really live and even thrive in the midst of it. And again, I think it's really important to ask that question, like, now what? And so that's kind of one of the final questions I'd throw to you.

Like, how can someone best answer that question? Now what? How can they best answer the question, now what, of like meaning, like the new reality going forward. I think like, you know, I heard this homily once, this was decades ago. I'm old enough that it was really a number of decades ago, but I loved it because he [00:56:00] said, like, if you want to know, like, what's the Lord really like calling you to be in a particular way to glorify him, you know, for us as Catholics, like be a saint.

It's like, look at what area of your life you've really struggled. Right. I mean, like you were in a divorced family. Like I had a whole lot of trauma. You now minister to people from divorced families and I'm a trauma therapist, right? Um, you know, or he was talking about, you know, St. Peter, who was a sand pile.

It was just, he was crumbling all over the place, sticking his foot in his mouth. And then like the Lord makes him, you know, the rock, right? Or Mary Magdalene, who's so much, you know, impurity in her background. And then like, just renowned for like, just, you know, passionate, like single hearted love for the Lord, you know?

So looking at what area like you're particularly challenged by, and I think that can begin to give you some inkling of the now what, I liked your definition, right? Accepting the new reality going forward, but it's not just about accepting, it's living into that new reality. And I think that can point us into the next chapter.

[00:57:00] Direction of what's the new reality. I love that. And I think another way to ask that question now, what is like, what am I going to do with this? Like this happened, like, what am I going to do with this? Like, yes, take time to grieve, you know, all of that's very important, but it's like, what am I going to do with it?

I'm going to let it define me. Am I going to let it. limit me in life, hold me back like we've been talking about, or am I going to then take that and use that as a catalyst for growth? Because really pain, I think, and suffering and trauma in life can either, you know, just kind of destroy us or we can use it as a catalyst for growth.

And I going back to, I mentioned Dave Ramsey before, I remember him saying like the difference between him and a lot of other people is like he, and really anyone who's like a high performer who's been able to, you know, gain any sort of like success in life is like, You're just standing on top of like the pain and the struggles in your life instead of just being buried under them.

Like, like that can be like your ladder to climb up. And so I think there's a lot of hope in that. And like you said, just maybe looking at people in your life or where you might feel called to then pour into others in a healthy way, um, is a really [00:58:00] beautiful thing as well. It's a good outlet. And I know for me, that was like actually a really healing thing.

To look beyond my own pain and try to find people in my life who maybe were suffering even more than me and see what I could do again to love them in a healthy, like balanced way. And so, uh, any final thoughts on that before we close on? Yeah, just for me, it's, you know, kind of like what you're saying, but like about becoming that person, your, your little kid wish they had back then.

Yeah. And then, you know, taking that and like trying to help people to help themselves. I think that's like so beautiful. Like we were talking about before, where it's like, we need to really grow that ability to kind of lead that little kid inside of us. That, that little, that hurt part of us that maybe wants to freak out, that wants to stay stuck, that wants to grieve forever, that wants to play the victim constantly.

And it's really beautiful to know that like, okay, no, we can be that person who leads us out of that misery, that stuckness into a much better place. Yeah, and then chances are there's other people struggling the same way they're that little emotional part of them struggling in the same way and when you come to [00:59:00] that understanding or way of being able to be that for for that part of you, then you probably have a gift to offer a lot of people.

Who are in that same place, you know? Yeah. And there's, uh, countless stories of people who've, who've done that, who've used that pain and transformed, like you said, transformed other people's lives or helped them transform their lives. So, so good. Um, in closing, I just want to say thank you so much and just really always enjoy talking to you and.

Yes. Yeah. Our partnership has been great. So I appreciate you. And thanks for being here. Um, two final questions, I guess. One, like, tell us about what you offer and how people can find you online. That's one thing. And then the second thing, I just want to throw the final word to you and just any final encouragement, any final advice to everyone listening.

Who's maybe, yeah, just been stuck in this problem of helplessness or victim mentality. Like what's the final encouragement advice. So tell us about your work and then tell us about that final word. Sure. So I'm a trauma therapist and I do intensive outpatient trauma therapy, which typically looks like one week all day, every day for Monday through Friday.

And I [01:00:00] do human and spiritual integration workshops in person for groups or online. Uh, I have a couple of books, more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma. That's specifically about trauma, obviously. And that's available on Amazon as is fearless abundant life through infinite love, which talks a lot more about.

What my final word would be, which is really just directing those needs for connection, for being chosen, being known, being valued, being protected and provided for to the Lord first, and then aligning our thoughts with His, taking on His mind for ourselves, and by way of that, being able to become conduits of grace to others.

So that's available on Amazon as well. But I think that for me, that's the final word. It's really about plugging into the Lord first. I mean, we can talk about his love like it's a nice thing and it's, you know, it's yeah, just kind of a nice thing. It's optional, but it's like, it's, it's really everything.

It's the most powerful force there ever was. And it's [01:01:00] transformative. And I know that personally, and would never have thought that my life could look the way it does, given all the things that I had, you know, had been through. So, um, but it was boiled all down. It was all God's love. So, can't be overstated.

 I wanted to touch on one additional barrier problem that we might face, and that is, if this problem I'm facing has attracted people into my life who want to help me, what happens to those people once this problem is solved, once it goes away, will they just disappear? It is kind of a scary thought and maybe subconsciously can lead us to kind of holding on to becoming attached to whatever problems that we're facing in our life, because it kind of got us the result of getting attention and getting people, you know, to help us.

I can't tell you exactly what would happen if you were to solve that problem, uh, but I can say that if you were to intentionally or subconsciously kind of hold onto that and never outgrow that problem because it brought people into your life and in order to keep them in your life, I can say this, eventually it will [01:02:00] likely drive them away.

And I don't say that to scare you, I don't say that to make you think that everyone's going to abandon you, that's not the case. But, if we're holding on to it again subconsciously, or maybe even intentionally, to keep those people around, something's going to change. Eventually they're going to get wind of this, eventually they're going to kind of understand or have a feeling that, okay, maybe this isn't The healthiest situation because this person might be relying on me in an unhealthy way.

And so just wanted to talk through that. And I say that with a lot of grace, cause again, I've been in these situations before, but if you were to heal and outgrow that problem, then what I would say is you then would have the opportunity to build a much healthier relationship, much healthier friendship.

You'll be able to really just be a better friend to them. And that should. That should make sure that, um, you'll have a better, longer relationship with that person than if you were to just hold on to this problem that's brought them into your life. And whether or not you struggle with that, I wanted to issue a challenge to everyone listening.

And the challenge is this. If you struggle with helplessness or neediness or just never seeing much transformation in your life, Don't just talk about your problems. [01:03:00] Don't just think about your problems. Don't just listen to podcasts and read books. Those are good things, by the way. I'm not putting them down, but don't just do those things.

Take the advice, take the lessons, and put them into action. That's how you see the results. Execution, right? Even if it isn't perfect execution, even if you kind of stumble through it, even if you're not very competent at whatever it is that you're doing, that's okay. It's better to act. Even if you feel like you don't have time, whatever barrier you're facing, just Bulldoze through that barrier and execute, execute, execute, do it, do it, do it.

And I promise in time, you'll see some results. And if you want more from Margaret, I'd recommend checking out her website. That's linked in the description. We also filmed a course with her. It's called broken to whole. tactics to heal from your parents divorce or broken marriage. And by signing up, uh, you're going to learn from Margaret and again, she's an 18 year trauma therapist.

You're going to learn why the trauma of your parents divorce or family dysfunction is so damaging. You're going to learn simple tools and tactics and navigate your emotions and heal [01:04:00] tips to build healthy relationships. And the whole course is actually, Two hours long, it's not super long and it contains about 30 videos.

Most of them are two to five minutes long, so it's very digestible. You can work through it at your own pace. And by going through the course, you're going to really be armed to identify the root of your struggles, which so often is trauma, untreated trauma. You're going to feel validated and less alone in your struggles.

You're going to understand and better navigate your emotions. You'll build healthier relationships and a better life. And you're going to most importantly, avoid passing your brokenness onto the people that you love. The most. And so if you want to, um, get the course right now, it's free. That might change in the future, but right now it's for just click on the link in the show notes.

Again, you can sign up for free at this recording. It is free that again, that might change in the future. Um, and then you could begin watching the videos at your own pace. Again, just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them.

I promise you they will be forever grateful to you for sharing it. with them. I really wish someone would have done that with [01:05:00] me years ago. In closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#120: Freedom You Never Tasted But Always Wanted | Jake Khym, MA

Pending! Stay tuned.

Two years into marriage, Jake found himself enslaved to a sexual addiction. He longed for freedom but felt very stuck. As a result, he lived a double life, hiding his unwanted behavior from his wife.  

But one random day, it all came to light. At that moment, he thought his marriage was over. In this episode, he shares what happened next, plus:

• What kept his marriage from falling apart?

• How a wound of abandonment from his family drove his addiction

• 6 tips to break free from sexual compulsion or addiction

Go to Jake’s Website & Resources

Listen to our series, Healing Sexual Brokenness

Go to Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Two years into marriage, Jake found himself enslaved to a sexual addiction. He wanted to break free, but he felt so stuck. And as a result, he just continued to live a double life, hiding his unwanted behavior from his wife. But that all changed one day when it kind of randomly came to life. And at that moment, he thought his marriage was over.

And so in this episode, he shares about what happened next and much more. We talk about how shame. truly crushed him, but it didn't destroy him. He answers the question, like, what kept your marriage from falling apart? We also discuss how pride is often at the root of lust or sexual compulsions. He touched on how a wound of abandonment from his family was at the root of a lot of his behavior, and he shares six tips to break free from sexual compulsion.

Uh, or addiction. So if you or someone, you know, struggles with a sexual compulsion or addiction, especially within marriage, this episode is for you. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 100. 20. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback. One listener said this, finally, a podcast that helps me understand why my parents divorce when I was five affected me so much.

Joey's guests are articulate and every episode helps me heal. I normally avoid religious content, but this show is so focused on felt experience that it doesn't come across religious at all. Major props for that. Thank you. And I just want to say, you're so welcome. Like we do it for you. Like I know it might sound kind of cheesy, but we do it for you.

We're so happy that the show has been helpful and even healing. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot. In a gym, Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But what makes Dakota different than the insane amount of fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I would say three things. One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped duties, but he's also a good virtuous man. He's not just caught up in his looks. Another thing I'd say is he, he studied to become a priest for a little while.

And from that experience in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustine Institute, he developed this belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting all the rest, like your body. We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free to love.

And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help you get a six pack or get bigger arms or whatever. He really wants to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated. And so if you would desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and even your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this. Dakota Lane changed my life, and the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have achieved, just go to DakotaLaneFitness. com or click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Jake Kim. Jake is a Catholic leader with over 20 years of experience in various ministry settings.

He has a master's degree in counseling psychology and a bachelor of arts in theology with a concentration in catechetics. Jake has worked in adult faith formation, a seminary and in priestly formation, a diocesan evangelization, catechesis, retreat ministry, and had a private counseling practice for over 15 years.

Currently Jake offers Human and pastoral formation for Catholic leaders is a consultant to various churches and ministries across North America. He offers an annual men's retreat in British Columbia, Canada, and accompanies male leaders on their journey of faith. And he co hosts two podcasts, uh, restore the glory is one of them.

And the other one is way of the heart. Plus in this episode, he shares about a new podcast that he and his wife are going to be launching. And with two children at university, Jake currently lives in Abbotsford. Uh, BC, British Columbia up in Canada with his wife, Heather, and one of their three. Now, in this episode, we do talk about God and faith.

If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out or skip the God parts, you're still going to benefit so much from this episode.

A little bit of a trigger warning before we jump in. This obviously is a mature topic talking about sexual compulsions and addictions. And so we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around children. But with that, here's my conversation with Jake. Jake, so good to have you on the show.

I'm honored that you joined us. Thanks so much for having me, Joey. It's great to be with you. I want to get into your story. And if, if you would, I'd love to start with a little bit of background and then take us to that day when you and your wife, Heather, Heather, really difficult conversation about your struggle.

Well, the, the back story is that I, I walked into marriage under a lot of deception. I had convinced Heather that previous issues in my life weren't there anymore and she was convinced and settled and she had entered into marriage, you know, with a lot of bliss and isn't this great and, you know, and. All that you would hope and expect, but what you didn't realize is that I was hiding a lot.

Um, there was a complete double life that was going on for me and I think to make it even worse, uh, at least it feels worse to me is that I, when all of this was happening, I was working at a church and so I was, you know. leading people into the Catholic faith through RCIA. So the duplicity stung particularly because my double life was extra heightened because I was proclaiming something about not living a double life to people.

So I'm working at a parish and, and all this is going on behind the scenes. And it's not like I'm loving it or embracing it all and going, Oh, who cares? I never was. Content with this being the reality, but felt utterly defeated and honestly didn't have much hope. Confession was my close friend and that's kind of the best that I was doing.

So the day where everything, where everything hit the fan, I was in, uh, we were getting ready or we were up in our bedroom and we were just chatting about various things in life. And. It's, it's really ironic because in hindsight, I realized what happened is that I was actually sharing a story, which was very boastful.

It was a story almost patting myself on the back about how wonderful of a helper I was to people. And so I was sharing with Heather about this story, uh, about this guy who came to me for counsel about going to confession for, Sins of impurity and so I was sharing with Heather. Oh, I know and I counseled him so well And I said, oh you got to go see I said to him you got to go see father So and so he's really good at these things but father so and so, you know, he's not so good and boy look at this great counsel I gave and was very full of myself and Heather for some reason it hit her and She said Jake, how would you know which priest would be better at that?

You And that question felt like everything went into slow motion, and I had possibly, you know, the most important decision of my life right in that moment. Because there were other times where Heather had quote unquote caught me or confronted me, and I'd lied my way out of it. But for some reason, this particular day, she asked that question, and I made the decision to cross a threshold that was terrifying to me, and to start being honest with her.

And so, I think my pause, and probably the look on my face, began to communicate to her, Oh, no, we have a lot more that's going on here. And so, I think if I'm, if I recall correctly, it was probably over the course of Two days that I came completely clean about everything that was going on in our marriage and Honestly, it was it was horrible just to be blunt There was there was not a lot of consolation in it the consolation did come for me quicker than for heather for obvious reasons because the burden of a secret and an addiction is Excruciating.

And so when you no longer live under the burden, what often happens is the addict starts to feel a bit of relief. And that can be massively confusing and hurtful to the person you've hurt your spouse or somebody else, because they're watching you almost feel relief and they've just been thrown into, you know, a hornet's nest of pain.

And so that came a bit later, but the first few days were, they were terrible. Because I'm, I'm honestly thinking my marriage is over. That's genuinely what I thought. We had my oldest daughter at the time and I, it was a very real serious consider so much so that I went to work probably, you know, I think I took the first day or two off and said I was sick or whatever, and I went back to work and I.

I had a meeting with my boss, who I was very close with, and I said, I need to talk to you and I need your help. And I said, I need to learn about annulments because I think my marriage is over. And he just obviously was floored and was like, what are you talking about? So it launched into this whole conversation with him.

So that's how the day, the first kind of day went. Um, there's all kinds of nuances I could say, but that's the rough sketch. Wow. No, thank you for sharing so vulnerably and knowing you a bit, how long you've come from that day. I just want to say a little bit of a pause in the conversation. Like I admire you so much.

It's incredible. The transformation in your life. And we're going to get to that. I want to give everyone some hope. Cause I know we're in like a heavy spot right now, but man, obviously I know you'd say it's a lot of God's grace, but you just, you have to be a fighter to be able to come, come back from something like that, which I'm excited to get into one place.

I want to go to is leading up to that. You alluded to the fact that. You know, all of this was unwanted. This is unwanted sexual behavior. What did it feel like in the midst of it all? I think so often it might be easy to like skip over that, how grueling and difficult it is. But I think to people who are in the midst of that right now, it's actually really helpful to talk about that.

So what did it feel like in the midst of it? And then, you After you opened up to Heather, how did you not let the shame crush you? I think any person that has any level of addiction and some addictions are worse than others, you know, like an addiction to cookies doesn't seem to bother as many people as an addiction to pornography.

Right? So it's like, okay, so But when you kind of increase the magnitude of what you're addicted to, alcohol, any kind of pleasure, and then when you bring in sex and all of those kinds of things, I think the reason that the sexual one has greater implication, greater pain, greater sting to yourself and other people is because it taps it into deep, deep dynamics in the human person, which is we're inherently relational.

And especially when you're in a marriage and an addiction of that kind in a marriage is like a direct. Like heresy of sorts. It's like a direct countersign to the very thing you're supposedly living day to day. Alcohol maybe is a little bit less than that because it doesn't have necessarily as blatant a direct correlation, but it does.

I mean, like a person coming home drunk impacts their spouse. I'm not trying to diminish that at all. But, you know, food is a bit less than a bit kind of like for me, the sting of it gets less. And I'm sure other people who struggle in those other areas would argue the opposite. And I'm welcome them arguing that I think that's fair for them.

But when you're in the midst of it and you look at something and you feel the clutches of something around you that you honestly, sincerely believe there's no way out of, It is a horrible experience. I think it's the closest thing I've ever come to knowing what it's like to be in jail. Like, here's the reality.

I can't do anything to get out of here. I am imprisoned by this. Every effort I try, it's like trying to shake the bars of a prison cell open. Doesn't work. And you know, you, you go for a week or whatever, and you even have the slightest ounce of hope that maybe, maybe this one's different. I remember feeling like, Oh my gosh, it's been two weeks since I haven't fallen and feeling this sense of victory only to like the next day have fallen worse than maybe a six months ago.

And that repetitive cycle of defeat and shame and imprisonment is. It, it really can mess with you. And I think what eventually people probably do is they just associate because of that pain, it gets so bad, they just start to check out and they get really numb. And that's usually when the addiction gets worse is because there's this thing in psychology called a tolerance effect where what one beer would do now takes five, what.

One website does, now it takes a worse one, a more intense one. And so you're always looking for the next high and you get used to the current high. And so it increases your tolerance increases. And so the, usually the ugliness of what you do can get worse. And so that's the whole cycle is. It's brutal and it can create a lot of despair.

I know a lot of men and women who I've seen and encountered and they feel utterly defeated. They're like a shell of a person. It's like looking at someone in a concentration camp and they're like, I'm going to die in here. And I have no hope of getting out. It's terrible. Like, it's, ugh, anybody who knows it.

And that's one of the things where I have a lot of compassion on people who struggle in this area, because I know what it's like. I know the pain of these areas, and I don't wish it on anybody. Your second question about the shame, you know, it's funny, I'm not sure I didn't let it crush me, if I'm honest.

I think the shame probably did crush me. The shame even in the addiction was crushing me. The shame of telling Heather, like my stomach, I probably grew 15 ulcers in a four days and I don't, and I never knew about it. I mean the, it was, it was terrible. Like it was brutal. And I say that cause I'm not trying to candy coat this.

Like I, there's a no BS philosophy that I kind of abide by and I don't want anybody to have, you know, Oh, it's rainbows and, and flowers when you go through this thing, it's awful. Like it's, It's brutal, but it is incredibly worth it. So I think the shame actually did crush me. I, I think why it didn't destroy me is maybe how I would rephrase the question.

And honestly, I would say grace. And I would say there are things in my life that God did to me very, very early on. He set up in me, he established in me that were critical to my recovery. And I think that's for everybody. I trust that that's the case for everybody. Everybody has things that God. Has put in their soul and in their personality and in their temperament, et cetera, that is their pathway out.

They probably just don't realize it. And so here's an example of one of those for me is I'm a very competitive person. I've been competitive for since I was little, I had two older brothers and I hated to lose. And so what, what ended up happening is that very early dynamic that just felt like me and my personality.

With some of the right love and mentorship from other people, they tapped into that dynamic in me and it was like a lifeline of don't lose and it, it, it like brought fire, even a spark back into a pouring rain environment internally. And that really mattered. There was one man in particular. He's quite well known.

Christopher West was a dear friend of mine in this journey. And it was Christopher West at the time was just Christopher West. Nobody really knew who he was. He wasn't this big popular guy. He lit fires underneath me all the time. And, and he, I don't know if he could see it or it was just the Holy Spirit, but he could motivate me like, like an athlete in a locker room.

You know, you watch those YouTube things and, and people are like, I would run through a wall now because like he had that capacity and he lit things up in me that massively helped me. And created lifelines for me. I think another one that was a lifeline for me, like I first learned that all of this was wrong when I was 18, um, I went to college and I remember going into the church because honestly I was lonely and I went to university and the girl I was after didn't work out.

And now I'm like, oh crap, I'm all alone. What do I do? And it was this tug of, well, where am I going to go? Where are people going to be nice to me? I'm insecure. I'm alone. And I felt like, go to the church, they kind of have to be nice to me. So I was like, okay, so I, I go to the church and I meet some nice people and they did, they welcomed me.

Then I start going to the talks and stuff like that. And the priest was brilliant. He just started saying the truth. And one of the things he said is masturbation, pornography, sexual addiction is real and it is a mortal sin. And here's what a mortal sin is. And that scared me because he said, hell is real and you don't want to go there.

And if you don't want to go there, you need to be in the state of grace. And so I had a very quick, Oh, Oh no, Oh, this is bad. And, and for some reason, the concept of eternity haunted me like forever, like forever, forever, like jail forever. And it terrified me. And so that in turn motivated me. And he said, there's a very simple way to be in the state of grace, go to confession.

And I was like, Okay. And so at some level, I was like, I don't care. Uh, I kind of had this internal disposition of if you don't let me go to confession, father, somehow that's on you. Cause I tried and God have mercy for you, buddy. So I worked those priests as hard as you can work them, man. Like I went to confession.

A lot. A lot. Numerous times I went twice in one day. They had the Saturday morning one, and the Saturday afternoon one, and I'd hit both of them. Because I would fall that frequently. So, that was another massive motivation for me, was somebody just flat out saying, Hell is real, you don't want to go there, and there's a way out.

You need to be in the state of grace and there's a sacrament you can get, even if you're an addict, you can come to and all you need is a slightest bit of, I don't want this anymore. And the Lord takes that. He cleans it all. And I drank, I gorged on confession. That was huge for me. It's beautiful. Wow.

There's so many lessons and so many great points I'd love to comment on. One of the lessons I'm learning from you is just how essential it is to have people in your life who can love you through this, who see you as you are, not some mask, not some fake version of you, but just like Christopher West was for you.

He's been on this podcast, so people are somewhat aware of him. And, uh, man, that was just like a lifeline, like you said, something that kept you moving. And also, like, you know, I know it was such a big struggle for your wife, Heather. I'm curious, just let's stop here for a second. Like, what made you guys keep going?

Because there's a lot of couples who would just go through something like this and say, Oh, I'm done. This is, this is not what I signed up for sort of thing. What, what kept you going? Ah, this is where my gratitude for my wife is. I, I honestly struggle to express it because I, this isn't a normal expression of love.

Like my wife, Heather is, she's amazing. Like she is amazing. I don't know why. It doesn't make sense for her to stay with me. Like, if you're honest, she shouldn't have. On every natural, normal reason, I've lied through my teeth. I've destroyed her. I've been unfaithful to her. Like, what? Why? Why should you? And, Her response here has been something that I've watched her live for the next, we're coming up on 24 years married, and this happened in year 2.

So year 2, so for 22 years, I've watched her live this wholeheartedly, and that basic point is, Either the gospel is what we say it is, or it isn't. Either Jesus Christ is who he says he is, and it's real, or what in the world are we all doing? And so everything that flows from that, the church's teaching, um, vows in a marriage, fidelity, all of that stuff, either it's real or it's not.

And what she lived was, I believe it's real. And I'm not going to believe another narrative about reality other than the one that Jesus Christ presents. And honestly, I can say, Jo, I do not think I would be here if it wasn't for her. There's no question. She was the catalyst to all of this for me. I actually have thought about it numerous times.

I'm scared. It's a scary thought for me to think about where I would be if it wasn't for her, I'd probably be divorced five times. I'd probably, I mean, I don't even know. It's, it's a scary thought. I definitely wouldn't be doing any of this kind of stuff. Heather was a, I mean, she was, a massive, massive gift and grace in my life.

Like just take this on day two. I think it was day two or day three after I've confessed everything. I'm sleeping in a different room and she's not yelling at me. She's not like mad. She's deeply hurt and she's not hiding it. And day two, day three, she says to me, I want you to know that I forgive you. And, and here's the crazy part.

I don't even remember that because I was so consumed with my inner world and my pain. That's part of the dynamic is you're obsessed with yourself. That's part of the issue. I was so consumed with that. I don't even remember her saying it and she, we've had to retell the story and I, and I vaguely have this memory of it because I remember internally, I'm like, That's impossible, right?

Like you look back on it and go, that's not possible. People don't do that. This isn't real, but it is, but it's the gospel, right? It feels impossible. I was the guy caught in adultery and Heather was the one who's saying, I forgive you, but don't sin anymore. And she offered both of those to me. She said to me, she doesn't remember saying this to me, but I have this vivid memory of her saying it.

Maybe it was the Holy spirit put these words in my heart, but I felt like it came directly from her and they were. I expect you to be a man, and nothing less. That's my expectation of you. I forgive you, but it's time for you to be a man. And, what I say when I share this story with people, I'm a movie guy, and like I said, I'm inspired, I like, Competition that that's the scene for me when the Rocky music turned on in the background and it lit a fire under me because I felt like I had a second chance at life and somebody said to me, not you're the biggest loser I've ever seen.

What the hell's wrong with you? I mean, all the things she could have said, she could have rubbed my face so deep and all of that. And what she said to me is the thing I wanted to be the whole time to begin with. I, that's what I deeply desired was to be a real authentic, strong and good man. And she basically said, put up or shut up time to get in the arena.

And that, that like exploded the fire within me. And now it wasn't easy. Uh, you know, every time you see the montage in a movie where it's like they go through eight months or a year or five years of something in 30 seconds, we all go, yeah. But the friggin five years is hard, and the music stops, and it sucks, and you don't want to do it anymore, and all of that.

But those moments were utter gifts to me, and all of them were from Heather, because she trusted and believed the gospel. So beautiful. And thanks again for sharing so vulnerably. I want to backtrack a little bit because you said something that was really profound about shame and about how, you know, I think there is the scale of intensity when it comes to various addictions or, you know, unwanted behavior.

Like, I agree with you on that. And I think part of the reason that makes the sexual struggles so shameful is that As a culture, I think we look down on them, at least, you know, within like the Christian culture. And so I think, yeah, I can drive you so deep within yourself that you think, man, if I ever were to show anyone this, they would quickly and easily disown me.

And they would, you know, say all the things that, you know, Run in the back of your head, you know that I'm a failure I'm never gonna get over this and so on and I've heard people say to that What when you're in the midst of that not just believing that what you're doing is wrong, but you are wrong You are bad kind of being the definition of shame this dual identity emerges where you to the outside world and to, you know, like you said, at work and church, like you were this one person and then interiorly you were just this broken, struggling person.

And then the gap between those two gets so big, it can feel like they can't be reconciled. Like, and that's such a hopeless, hopeless place to be. Like you, you articulate it so well. I'm curious if Yeah, backtracking a little bit when it came to, what, what held you back? Was it the shame that held you back from telling Heather in the first place?

Because I imagine there were times when you were going through this and you were like, man, I just, I want to open up. I need to open up. Like, what, what was it that held you back and held you, you? To that line of lying and deceiving, it took me getting into my own story and almost understanding myself before I could really appreciate the why.

And I'd say one of the biggest reasons of why I didn't share with Heather is because I was terrified of experiences that happened earlier in my life happening again. So as a very young boy, Abandoned very early by my mom, not her fault. She had mental illness and she had extreme postpartum depression.

She had to go into inpatient mental health care. Um, so she was gone for months, uh, when I was a brand new baby. And that was an incredibly deep wound of abandonment. And then from that, the enemy just thought, Hey, let's just beat the tar out of this guy with this wound of abandonment. So every girlfriend I had, they always broke up with me.

I never broke up with them. So there's always this repeating narrative of the thing you long for the most, feminine care will always leave you. And it, it was to the depth of my being. So the thought of sharing with somebody Something that in my mind guaranteed my biggest fear to happen. I'm like, I can't do that.

So I'm in this terrible, I call it a double bind. If I go left, I'm dead. But if I go right, I'm dead. I don't know what to do. So if I share with Heather, all this, she will abandon me. But if I don't share all of this with Heather, I'm living a complete and utter lie that once she finds out she'll abandon me.

So I'm just stuck. In both places, terribly, that was probably the biggest reason, but I didn't know that that was the biggest reason until after the fact. I think another reason, if I'm just honest, the, the wounds that those dynamics, the impact of those wounds in me made me very, very selfish and self reliant.

I basically, I call it a masturbatory mentality. And this is the language I've learned. People say, Oh, I've struggled with masturbation. I think the bigger issue is that we have a masturbatory mentality, outlook, way of life. Everything becomes masturbatory. It's all about me, what I can get and my pleasure.

And so I think that dynamic goes on. It's rampant. And it was rampant in my life. Selflessness Was a very small category for me It was all about me because I believed I had to make it about me For me to be okay because no one else would take care of me or be there Those are all the lies and vows and beliefs and so I mean it sounds it's a bit crude But I was quote unquote Masturbating all the time because everything was about my pleasure and everybody else's job was to make sure I was okay So that was another reason So, I would look at Heather and justify at times my behavior because she wasn't giving me what I wanted and I was convinced this is what I need and if everybody would just give me that.

You know, the lie becomes, if I could just have pornography in real life, I'd be fine. And I believed that lie deeply. And so in my relationship with Heather, you bring that into the marriage. That's one of the issues with pornography. And then you end up deeply wounding your spouse because you're expressing disappointment in them because they're not living the lie with you.

Just as a footnote, I think that's a very dangerous thing that happens for a lot of couples is their spouses that believe that's the remedy. Give them what they want. And then they begin to compromise their own dignity, and that just creates all kinds of more interesting and troublesome dynamics. So, selfishness is kind of what I'm saying here.

Massive selfishness and terrible fear of abandonment. And then I would say the last one was, I honestly didn't have the kind of relationship with God to where I sincerely trusted he would actually satisfy me. And so I'm living this life with God and going, yeah, God's good. And, you know, I say all the right stuff.

I'm passing all the multiple choice tests, but if I'm honest, Will God actually satisfy me to this depth? No, I don't think he goes there. I mean, you know, you look at all the stuff that we're formed in and all the false formation and prudishness that enters into our, our world and we call it holiness. We call it prudence, but it's actually manichaeism, which means body, bad spirit, good.

You know, we, we adopt some of these heresies without even realizing it. And then we shut out. The very grace of God in our lives. And so I believed God can't satisfy me. So you throw that combo together. That was gnarly. I was like, man, I'm not going there. No, it's so profound. And I love how you tied lust and pride together.

I don't think a lot of people make that connection, but I think it's so potent. I heard that St. Augustine once wrote that lust is the sin of the proud. And, and I think like you said so well, it's so true because at the core of lust of using another person for own pleasure. It's, you know, obviously an extreme amount of selfishness, which is pride.

And so I think one of the antidotes, which I know we're going to get to in a second here, is an incredible amount of humility of, and obviously valuing like the worth, the dignity, the value, you know, of another person, seeing their pain, seeing, you know, their desire to be loved and just understanding how Our behavior of salvageness just destroys them in so many ways.

And so I love how you guys were able to kind of go from that place into just a much healthier, more beautiful place. And so many things you had, I would love to comment on, but I know we don't have forever today. I could talk to you forever, but I'm curious if there was, um, if there was anything else that you would say that that sexual compulsion addiction Uh, was, was filling, like, if there are any other needs, cause you, you outlined it so well how it went back to the abandonment one, but I'm just curious if there's anything else you would say like this need or this thing was filling this need.

Yeah, I, I would say I'm a very, I'm like, you know, like when you talk about the five love languages and those kinds of things, physical touch is very high for me. So I'm a sensual person and I'm, Stereotypically male where I'm highly visual, I'm very sensual. And so what the pornography was doing was just almost like meeting me to a depth that I felt.

And so in some ways it was this perfect assault on me because it's deeply visual, highly erotic. All of these things that I kind of at baseline feel, and I think I'm, I'm, I don't think everybody's that way, or if they are, I don't know that. And so pornography had like this perfect concoction for me and passion, like I'm a passionate guy.

I'm a pretty intense guy when I play a sport like I, I go all in, I'm an all in kind of person. And so what you see. One of the twists of pornography is that it meets you in that space. And the lie that it suggests is you won't find this elsewhere. In other words, when you hear and look at the passion of Jesus Christ, you don't equate that to a satisfaction of Eros.

Most people don't link those. They go, that's the opposite of Eros. And I think one of the dilemmas that we have is that we, we assume making a gift of ourself, which is. The passion of Christ, the cross doesn't satisfy. This to me is one of the crux issues with Christianity and the gospel and Jesus's message is we, we don't believe in when we say, when you lose your life, you'll find it.

I think that's a, that's a line in the sand that few people actually cross over to believe. And so we think we actually have to take care of ourselves. And so they go, where am I going to go? I want it to be really good, highly intent, blah, blah, blah. And it's, this is the brutal thing of pornography. It's affordable.

They call it the three A's. It's affordable, meaning I don't have to pay much to get it. It's anonymous. No one's going to watch me. And it's easily accessible. Affordable, anonymous, and accessible. That is a real tough one. And this is one of the issues with the advent of modern technology is, you know, back in the 70s or 80s, early 90s, to partake of pornography, More guts than it does now.

And so you had to, you had to have a bigger desire. So it had a threshold that a lot of people just wouldn't push through. And in some ways it prevented a lot of issues, affordable, accessible, anonymous, man, that is rampant right now. So, um, anyway, I feel like I'm digressing. No, no, it's so good. And so relevant to what we're talking about.

Cause you're right. It's so, it comes at you so aggressively. And I think not only men, but also women now are struggling in so many different ways when it comes to just lacking self mastery in the realm of sexuality. But also, I think, like you said so well earlier on, there's something about our sexuality that just hits on so many components of the human person.

And so, We're all, you know, I think so many people have been through trauma. They carry broken with brokenness with them through life, especially our audience who's coming from, you know, really broken dysfunctional families that the kind of sexual release is just so attractive because it feels in the moment that it kind of satisfies those needs to satisfy that brokenness for a moment.

At least you feel some level of relief and maybe even wholeness. I don't know if I'd use that word exactly, but when you have, uh, I'm trying to be Veiled with my language when you have a full experience of a sexual act what literally goes on Neurologically for you is an is a very intense bonding cycle And so what it's created to do is one of the most powerful things on the face of the planet It's to take two people and to have this repeated experience where they keep bonding and keep bonding and keep bonding and get closer And deeper and closer and closer and closer because the Lord's saying I want to show you what I want you Us to look like, meaning God and the person.

I want to give you a sign of what that looks like and how deeply bonded I want to be with you. Well, it's like he, you know, this is the joke. Like when God's pouring the chemicals together to make reality that he like slipped and he like poured too long in this domain and we're like, Whoa, why'd you put so much of that one in this one?

And we go like, back off a bit. And so we feel like we got to counteract God's design, but that's just not true. Like he got it right the first time. And what he's desiring is that level of intense bonding intimacy with us. Like this is the four and all these domains is exactly what heaven Is it's the fulfillment of all the desires that we have they're put back into right order and I think that's where people just go no way heaven's full of angels and organ music and ice cream like that's we put all these random categories together and go such a trite definition of it and so C.

S. Lewis has this concept of, there's no desire that God can't satisfy. I think what people struggle with is they go, well, I have desires. He won't satisfy my way. Okay. Yes, that is the issue, but a desire that's unsatisfiable. No. That's hard to believe. Oh, just pick up your cross. That's going to make me happy.

Baloney. I'd rather go do this other thing. And this is where the cross is not easy. This is where GK Chesterton says things like Christianity to be, has not been tried and found wanting. It's been found difficult and left untried. Like it is not for the faint of heart, this call to be a disciple of Jesus.

But what you see over and over and over and over with the people who took it serious, we call those people saints. They were deeply satisfied. I would call them the happiest people that have ever lived. Now you might look at them at face value and go, they look sad. Look at the artwork that shows them.

And I'm going, uh, you might not realize all the depth that's going on. Right? Don't judge a book by its cover. I had somebody recently say, Jake, why don't you smile bigger? And I was like, I thought I was smiling. Like, I'm actually happy when I'm making this face, you know? So, there's a bit of that maybe going on.

But, um, Wow. No, no. Profound and so good. And I think this gets to the root of so many struggles in our relationship with God, where I think father, uh, Michael Galey said that the, I think the core problem is that we don't actually trust God because we don't believe he's good. And we think that, He's holding out on us.

We think that he's putting us through these ridiculous rules and regulations and just trying to stifle us so that we don't experience the joy and the pleasure that we could experience on our own. And so like you articulated so well, and I've experienced this in my life too. We just think, well, I really don't believe that God's going to take care of me, come through for me, satisfy me.

So I'm just going to take care of it myself. And that, you know, can look like any number of. unhealthy behavior, but I think that's where the world is right now. And it's so sad and you're right. Like when you go through that, the cross and you go through just living life as it was meant to be lived, even though it's not pain free, it's not easy.

There's like a deeper level of satisfaction of meaning of, of joy that you receive that it's hard to articulate unless you go through it. Yes. I am eternally grateful to John Paul the second. And Christopher West, because the whole anthropology of the theology of the body, particularly how do I manage desire, was them.

Like I, all of that has been formation from them being able to situate the deepest longings of my heart within a context where does, where satisfaction is real and it's also holy. So for example, the concept of freedom. For me, freedom meant Do what I want, when I want, how I want it, so I get the biggest bang for my buck, the biggest return.

And then another concept of freedom was put in, was offered to me, which was, freedom is not living in jail. It's not, because you can do all the things you want within a jail, but you're still in a jail. You're still locked up, you're not actually free, you don't have the capacity to have your yes be yes and your no be no.

Something else is pulling you around like a puppet. But you have to be brutally honest to admit, man, I can't actually do and say what I want here. I'm in bondage. So getting the permission to do whatever I want is different than the capacity. Do I even have the capacity to love somebody? Do we even have the capacity to say no?

So that spin for me was huge. And then to say, what if you can be free and be satisfied? And I was like, that's impossible, right? And it's just so subtle that these narratives get in there. And basically what they taught me was, now you're looking Jesus Christ right in his face and he's saying to you, I can't.

Will you follow me because I promise you I can, and that is a shattering, rattling reality. An author put it this way that I love. When you encounter Jesus as he truly is, you will either turn away from him because you can't handle what he's offering, or you will shamelessly worship him. And that I love that articulation because it captures my experience and I think the honest experience people have when they encounter Jesus as he actually is with all the, all the garbage drapery that we put around him.

Like when you peel all that stuff away and you look Jesus Christ square in the eyes, his offer is life. And he even says it. To the full life to the full is what I'm offering to you. Wow. Wow. Wow. And I love the point you made about freedom. Cause I think people feel that strongly today. Like they want freedom, right?

They don't want to be tied down. They don't want to be, so to speak. They don't want, you know, shackles, but like you said, so often we're slaves to certain behaviors or whatever attachments that we have in our life that we don't even realize. We just think that, no, I choose this thing. But if we ever tried to stop it, it would be like, no, I couldn't really do it.

And I love that definition you gave. And I, the way I've kind of thought about it too, in the past is. The greatest measure of freedom, in my opinion, is, like you said, your capacity to love. The greater your capacity to love, the more free you are. The less your capacity to love, the less free you are. And I think a lot of even moral issues can be looked at through that lens.

And so that, that shifted things for me, especially when I was younger and struggling with, you know, lust and pornography and masturbation, all that stuff. It was, you know, realizing that it was holding me down. And, and there's, it's almost like you can't. You know, I know Christopher Walsh uses the analogy of like eating junk food from a dumpster.

You know, it's like, you can't really imagine what like, you know, an amazing ribeye would taste like when you're in the midst of that. But once you taste it, you're like, my goodness. Like, this is like a world of a difference that I never even knew because I never experienced it. But once you do, you're like, wow, there's something else on the other side.

And I think that's what I want people to hear. From your whole story, like there's something better on the other side that maybe you can imagine or experience or, um, yeah, there's something burning within me that I want to say to people because I, and I almost want to remind my former self of this. So you, you take me back 30 years and, um, Uh, you're looking at a teenage version of me walking up to a beautiful woman and having the integrity of heart to simply love her and not grasp after her felt impossible.

But I can do that now. And the satisfaction that comes from walking up to a beautiful woman and not having this thing within me, that's trying to fantasize or what if, or if I played my cards right, you know, all that stuff that's twisted and distorted within you, and to be able to say it in freedom and to make that a gift to them and they feel and see that you have no ulterior motive.

Watch what that does. It is amazing. I have, what I love about that is that when you start to taste and see what love is like, and to be a lover in all of the right contexts and ways as a, as a husband, as a father, as a brother. To be able to, with utter congruence to walk up to somebody and bless them and not need anything from them.

The life that goes into that person is like stuff you've never seen before. And what that takes is an integrity of heart. Like that, that's not easily won. You don't cheaply go up there. This is one of the things I love about the feminine soul. Their BS meter is so sensitive. It is such a gift, and it's terrifying all at the same time.

And so they can smell your macho BS from so far away. And so what that demands is an utterly clear minded, solid man. And when you can offer that to them, the life that comes into them is like nothing you've ever seen on any false version of pornography. And it's live. And you get to do that all the time.

Like, I'm not recommending going up to everybody and go, Hey, you're beautiful. Hey, you're beautiful. Cause now that starts to get distorted and probably be about you. But imagine your heart is so conformed unto Christ that you are literally moved by what moves his heart. And so you go up to people and you want to love them and you become a lover.

And the right context, an untwisted version of being a lover of people. It is the most satisfying thing in the world, dude. It is unbelievably wonderful for men to, to love men and women. Well, like it's the best, it really is the best. And then to have that capacity to love in a unique and particular relationship where those words.

Can become flesh and you mean it into your bones and to make that gift of someone to someone and for them to receive that gift from you and to have it all be true and good and beautiful and passionate. There's nothing like that. And so, we, we, we, we settle, C. S. Lewis says it this way, we settle for playing in dirty mud puddles when we're made for the holiday at the sea.

And what I'm trying to emphasize is, I have gone on the holidays, I've tasted the holidays that C. S. Lewis references. They're amazing. Like they are worth it. They're incredibly satisfying and they're not cheap. They require a total and complete. Yes. Of the person who wants to realize that reality, but that's what makes them matter.

Like. The, the stuff that we get these days, because it's cheap, like cheap love, cheap respect, cheap praise, it's so shallow. And then you wonder why people are depressed and have no meaning. It's because everything's lost its value. But when you raise a standard. And you hold that standard. The thing has value again.

Like this is one of the things that like with athletics, I'm being an, I like athletics when they start changing all the rules and all the old people who played the sport are like, you can't do this. Like, come on, like, you don't get to change the thing. Cause that compromises the whole point of it all.

You show up and you either won or you lost. You're either better than them or you're not. And there's no other way to prove it other than getting on the mat and showing It is instant. reality right in front of you. And if you want to get better, it takes a lot of dedication and hard work. It just, it is what it is.

You're either going to embrace it or not. There's no games. I love that. It's not cheap. So good. So good. And I think we need to hear about that more. So I'm so glad you, we spent so much time here because I think people, when they're stuck in an addiction or compulsion, They, yeah, lack the motivation and they don't think what's waiting on the other side is worth it.

It's like, no, I'm more comfortable here. And I remember Jay Stringer in his book, he has like this awesome quote about how you have this kind of maddening fight with freedom in the midst of an addiction or compulsion. And I think this gets to the heart of it, because we actually don't think that's what's waiting on the other side is better.

We think what we're in the midst of is so much better. And so feel free to comment on that. But I wanted to shift gears a little bit in the time we have left to kind of fill the gap. We've kind of contrasted what your life was like then to what it's like now, which is just beautiful. Feel free to add anything there.

But I'm curious what happened in between, if there's any particular steps or principles or lessons that you would like to pass on to everyone listening, especially people who maybe find themselves where you were years ago. Yeah, there's numerous things that were very important, you know, over the years I've tried to categorize them and what's difficult about just labeling with.

You know, Oh, here's the five easy steps to pornography recovery. Like it's never that, that that's cheap. And so I don't mean to cheapen it. Like these are very real and there's a lot of depth to them, but I mentioned one before and that would be the sacraments in particular confession. Confession changes lives.

It's a real encounter with supernatural capacity. In particular, in the areas of healing and forgiveness and the grace to be able to not sin again. You, you can't find that anywhere else. You might not be able to see it, but there are lots of things we can't see that are very, very real. So I would say sacraments are very high on the list and use them a lot, go a lot to them.

You know, confession, I'm not encouraging scrupulosity, but I'm saying if you're in an addiction. Go to confession every week go to confession every three days like what I love about my region is I can find confession like Anywhere the next day, right? So just yesterday I was like it was the I'm gonna timestamp this but We're recording this right after the Feast of St.

Joseph. And so Big feast day for me. And I was like, you know what? I just want to go to confession and I could. So I'm really grateful for the priests out there who offer that because it's a huge thing. So sacraments, I would say another one that was very big for me that you mentioned as well, which is other people.

You cannot get through this alone. And there's different kind of types of people that you need. I needed a Christopher West who was like the trainer at the gym. Who's Got the right dose of, come on, you can do this, as well as helping me analyze my, you know, what I'm doing and not doing. But I also had a lot of people who were exceptionally kind.

The guy who I mentioned, who I shared my story with at work and the annulment thing. The first thing he said to me was, Jake, hold your head high. And, and I was like, what did you just hear what I just said? And he said he was fighting for me right in that moment. The brilliance of that man to begin battling shame on my behalf, like in his third statement, it was utterly brilliant.

Hold your head high. You are now fighting a good fight. Like. Oh, that phrase just rang in my ear. So I needed other people. I needed to go to counseling. I needed healing. And so I went to many versions of counseling and basically I've never stopped. I've been in counseling ever since that whole journey started with me.

I've never stopped because I have perpetual areas that I need to address. This area isn't there anymore, but that doesn't mean there aren't other areas that I need to address. So, I went into healing, lots of it, and I just said, I meant this is my path and I'm not getting off of it, because this is what it means to be a Christian.

This is the gospel message, perpetual healing. My prayer life I had to take very seriously. And I made things practical. I made a bet with a buddy, because money was precious when you're young and you're early married and you got new family, so I made a bet with a friend. If one of us misses, uh, we had, we committed to an hour, a holy hour, you have to pay the other guy a hundred bucks.

And that stung. And so it was like, I'm not missing. And you know what? Heather was like, you're not missing. Get your butt up and pray. Cause we don't have a hundred dollars to spare. And I was like, it's not in the budget. Yeah. It's not in the budget. You being lazy is not on the budget. So I needed that.

Another one was fasting. Fasting was very important to me. I had to strengthen my will muscle. That's Christopher West's brilliance. He said, Jake, you go to the gym for your body, but you're not going to the gym for your soul. And part of the going to the gym for your soul is fasting. And so I committed to a bread and water fast on every Friday.

And it was hard. I did not like it. And it wasn't brutal, like I'd go to Panera Bread and I'd get the nicest stinkin bread that I could find. Cause I was like, I don't know, and I, I even eventually got to the point where butter counted. So, I don't know if that was cheating. The point was, I was strengthening a muscle, which was my will muscle.

And I would say the last thing was just truth. I needed to fill, fill myself with a ton of truth. Not just truth like, oh, the church teaches, yes, that. But also, this is the truth about my identity. This is the truth about why I do what I do. This is the truth about God. And I had to fight for those truths to actually, like, find root within my soul.

For the soil to be turned over to be able to anything to have root. Because, like, my life at that point was like a hurricane and you're trying to plant a garden in a hurricane. Like, you gotta really protect some of those things. for them to actually grow and get strong enough. So that's kind of the rough categories that I would say.

No, it's super helpful. And I love that you highlighted the point, like as helpful as all those principles are and those tactics that healing is deeply personal, that it might look a little bit different in different people's life. But I think so many of those components, um, I know in my story were present when I've experienced the most amount of healing.

And so especially I would just double down on that whole vulnerability point of like having someone in your life who just knows everything about you, who you can just share everything about you and who they're just going to love you in spite of it all. Um, it's, it's beyond healing. It's beyond helpful.

It's something that can transform you. Yeah, there, maybe I can nuance that for a little bit. There, there are two types of people that I find helpful and both are needed. And that, and that was represented by Christopher and Tom. Tom was the guy who said, hold your head high. And so as I've seen that over the years and becoming somebody who's worked with people in these regards, I've found that both kinds of people are necessary.

So. The kind that I will love you no matter what. And I will love you in the midst of the sin and the ugliness, et cetera. And Christopher did that for me. He also was a wonderful version of accountability because he wasn't okay with excuses. And so I think a lot of the problem is that people have an accountability partner and what they give each other permission to do is to just get away with whatever.

And so I, I challenged a group of men I was working with one time. And this is one of the best stories I've ever heard. I challenged a group of men one time to actually do real accountability with each other. And so there was a group of men and they came in and one guy kept coming and saying is falling.

And another guy in the group said, I promised you, I promised you. I would help you. And if you come back next week and you say you've fallen again, I will take care of this problem for you. And the guy was like, what? So we're all like, Whoa, what does this mean? The guy comes back the following week. He says, I fell again.

And the guy who promised him said. I'll take care of it. So I'm like, what is going on? So now it's the next week and there is all kinds of issues between these two guys. Well, here's what the guy did. He knew that the way that this guy fell was through the internet and through buying things on TV, he went over to his house.

And he ripped the cable box off of his house and cut all the cable wires, ripped it off, like holding the head of Medusa in his hands and left it on his porch and drove away. So he had no access to the internet. He couldn't get any access to anything. I think that's illegal, what he did, but the commitment was so amazing.

They were the one guy who had his house. Assault was not happy because then he had to pay the company to come back out and fix it and blah, blah, blah. But I went, that's the kind of thing. I'm not promoting illegal behavior, but that's the kind of thing that the guy was serious. He was like, Either I'm, either I'm whole, I'm loving you or I'm not like, uh, so I love that story.

And so good. Maybe that guy's in jail for doing that for other people. No, so good. No, I think it hits on that whole thing. When we're trying to help someone, we need to go in with both truth and love. We can't just love them and, you know, say, well, You know, what you do doesn't matter. No, it does. We need to hit them with the truth and say, no, no, you're, you're called to more than this and you can beat this.

And yeah, I'm going to be standing right there through it with you, but I'm not going to let you fall prey to mediocrity and just like living this life. That's never going to end because that's just depressing. So, so much good stuff there. I want to, um, just get kind of fire. A few questions that you, when it comes to someone listening right now, Who is in that spot that you were in, maybe in their marriage or leading up to marriage in a dating relationship even.

I know those are two different things. So maybe let's just focus on marriage for the sake of this. So what would you say to that person? Like, where do they go first? And I'm curious, do you always advise sharing your struggle with the spouse? Yeah, good questions. I'll be brief. The first things I would say is you're not going to go anywhere if you're not honest.

And so step one is getting honest with the reality of the situation. Christopher did the same thing to me, and he said, you've got to be honest about do you actually want this? Because he said, you can actually want it, and that looks a particular way. Or you can want it. To want it, or you can like the idea of wanting it, that's not wanting freedom, and you just need to be honest about where you're at.

Do I want it? Do I want to want it? Or do I hope to one day want to want it? You know? You've got to situate yourself there. Cause there you're least honest. You have to be honest at first. Then I would say the next step is what do you believe will happen with regard to a journey of transformation? And you need to look for the lies there.

So for example, it's impossible. I said that. I said that all the time. Obviously I'm sitting here proving that wrong, but I believed it. So I believed a lie. So I have to look at what I believe about a process of change and actually examine it and, and, and examine that for lies. And usually you need to do that with someone else.

Amongst all the other stuff, I would say the last one is something I've learned from The Navy SEALs. And I think the reason I say that is because Navy SEALs are people who do extremely difficult things and you can learn a lot from them. There's a friend of mine who's a Navy SEAL. He's a retired Navy SEAL.

And I've talked to him about all these things. And he said, getting free of pornography addiction is an equivalent to going through hell week. So if you know anything about the Navy SEALs, he said, and he's been through hell week. He's been through hell week. So he has real life experience. And he said, I respect any man who has worked through an addiction, man or woman, but we're talking about men work through an addiction of pornography.

He said, you are like us when you've done this. That was huge motivation for me. But one of the things that they teach there is what's called micro goals. The principle is you will never make it through hell week. When you think about the entire week at the same time, You'll quit because it's overwhelming.

So what you have to do is draw your attention, which isn't easy, but it is possible. Draw your attention back until the next thing you're focusing on is reasonable and achievable. And that might be. All I have to focus on is the next 30 minutes. And if that's the sobriety journey that you're in is all my goal right now is the next 30 minutes.

And I'm working hard because it's not instantly happening. I'm working hard to hold my attention to being holy, being pure, and being free. For the next 30 minutes, I'm breaking down this lifelong journey into a goal. That's reasonable and achievable. It's micro goals. That's how they survive extremely difficult things like hell week.

And they train that and they practice that. And then they embody it. I think that's essential to recovery is micro goals. You have to break this whole thing down into realistic parts. And. That doesn't magically happen. That is intentional. Soon as you think about, I'm going to have to go seven years without ever struggling, you're done.

It's too big. You're done. It'll crush you. You got to think about the next 10 minutes, day, week, whatever is manageable to you. So good. And proof that that work is that works is, um, the lone survivor story of Marcus Luttrell, who's a Navy SEAL, who you guys might know this story. He was, um, essentially just left without a team in the mountains in Afghanistan.

And he actually using that exact tactic that Jake just taught, he actually crawled on his belly with like a broken femur. He, his nose was collapsed into his face. Sorry, this kind of graphic he had. bitten through his tongue. Um, he was on his belly, like running from likely hundreds of enemy fighters. He, he would take a stick and draw a line in the sand in front of him.

And he said, if I can just get past that line, I'm going to live. And he did that again. He did that for seven miles. seven miles. And so it works, it works. And so, so, so good. And I think one of the biggest lies I just want to touch on briefly when it comes to, um, breaking free from sexual compulsion addiction is that I'm going to beat it myself.

I'll figure out a way to be yourself. That's a complete lie. And I know you can, we can do a whole nother show on that. But, um, the, the final thing I just wanted to make sure we touched on was just your ministry. You have so much more to offer here. I mean, this, Episode is a proof of it. So please tell us about it.

What do you guys offer and how can people find you online? Yeah, I'd say that the simplest thing is to go to our website life restoration C A, C A is for Canada, we're in Canada. So Life Restoration Ministries is what we do and in that we do all kinds of various things. The biggest thing that we offer is we want people to encounter Jesus and we want people to experience the maturation and healing of their humanity.

So, human formation, healing, encounter with Jesus, that's what we're all about. So, if you're kind of looking at going, what's the nuance here? Human formation is a big nuance. Encounter with Jesus is a big nuance. Um, but we do that through conferences, podcasts, like, podcasts. Uh, we have a podcast and Joe, you've been on ours, which was a great gift to us.

So Heather has a podcast, my wife, she and I run it together, abiding together. I have a podcast called restore the glory. Heather and I are actually going to be starting our own podcast together. It's one of our ministries and podcasts are a thing we love to do. So they'll, that will be one. We do conferences and talks and formation courses, et cetera.

But if you go to the website, you get a sense of all that. And Joey, I, I'm sorry, I know I'm way over time, but I, you, you had asked a question about. Do you say to your spouse or do you not? And I think I'll answer that very, very simply. I wish there was an easy black or white answer. I don't think there is one, but here is one thing I will say in my experience.

I don't know anyone, and I'm sure they exist, but I don't know anyone who hasn't told their spouse and gotten through it. I say that as a field note from my experience. Now, hundreds of people could write in and say, Hey, I great. I just don't know about them. I have a lot of stories of people who have broken free when their spouse was on the journey with them and their spouse was aware.

That's my story. So. That's one comment I would make. But back to the other thing, life restoration podcast, you know, retreats, et cetera, go to that website. Love that. And one piece of advice on that for everyone listening. I've heard that when you do tell your spouse, you want to make sure there's someone else present there who is some have some level of competence in this, because then your spouse has somewhere to go to, to talk about these things and not just between the two of you.

So I've heard that's a really, really helpful tactic. Yeah, we don't want to be flippant. Like, I mean, It's not about you. That's the thing. Um, I mean, we, yeah, we could do a whole other episode just about that, but there's a lot of differing opinions there, but love them. The point is to love them. It's not to get you out of the doghouse or to get you better.

Remember, it's not about you. The point is, what do they need? How can I love them well? Okay. No. So good. And Jake, thank you so much for coming on the show. I could talk with you forever and just such good content, good advice. I want to give you the last word, like what's one final piece of encouragement that you would give to everyone listening, especially someone who finds himself where you were years ago.

Trust Jesus. It sounds cliche, but when you are with him, when you're facing his direction, even if it feels like you're so far away, you don't lose. You never lose. When you are close to Jesus facing him, trust him, it's worth it. So good. Jake is amazing. And it's really an understatement to say that if you want to really soak in all the wisdom that he has to offer, uh, relistening to that episode is a smart move.

But I wanted to highlight the six tips that he gave to break free from sexual compulsion or addiction. Uh, one is sacraments like confession. He mentioned two, People someone to coach you and really hold you accountable through this whole process of breaking free a three therapy to heal the brokenness that drives that behavior for his prayer to tap into strength.

That's beyond your own five is fasting to grow your self control yourself mastery muscle. And six is truth to bury those lies. How to keep you stuck. And if you want more content like this, I highly recommend checking out Jake's website and the podcast that he hosts. Um, but I'd also humbly recommend our podcast series called healing sexual brokenness.

It's a six part series where we just offer a lot of tactics and resources from experts on how to overcome unwanted sexual behavior. So you can find freedom. And it's so relevant for people like us who come from divorce and broken families, because one expert found that 90 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction actually come from a broken family, pretty mind blowing.

And so if you want to listen to that, there's two ways you can do that. Uh, in your podcast app, you can just, once you've selected our show, you can just search. Healing, sexual brokenness, and you'll see all of those episodes. Um, or you can just click on the link in the show notes of this episode, which will take you to restored ministry.

com slash sexual brokenness again, restored ministry. com slash sexual brokenness, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, if you take like 20 seconds out and message them, I promise you they will be so grateful.

And in closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

You Are Not Your Broken Family

4 minute read.

This story was written by Anonymous at 26 years old. Her parents divorced before she was 20. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

Both my mom and my dad came from very broken families. The two of them being together was a perfect storm in many ways. They both desired to be better than the families they came from (especially my mom), but they really didn't have the tools to do so. My dad is a functioning alcoholic and had an awful temper growing up. My mom had depression and anxiety/paranoia. They fought often and the household atmosphere was very tense. It was almost like my parents were already emotionally divorced my whole life.

I was 20 and about to enter my senior year of college when my mom came into my room one night to tell me she was going to divorce my dad. My memory is extremely foggy (I'm sure because I was so stressed), but after that, I remember both of my parents sitting down with me and my five younger siblings to officially tell all of us that they were divorcing. At first, they decided to keep all of us in our house and rotate which parent would be with us. After a couple years of that, my sister, brother, and I moved out, so my parents sold that house and my three remaining siblings went back and forth between my dad's new house and my mom's apartment.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

I remember breaking down after my mom left my room that night. I sobbed and immediately prayed to the Blessed Mother. I remember feeling a heavy burden on my heart and on my shoulders. I felt abandoned and alone. I knew I was going to be the sole comforter and emotional support for my younger siblings as our parents went through with the divorce. Growing up I had already created a habit of taking on family’s problems that weren't mine to bear. That (with many other maladaptive behaviors/thought patterns) majorly intensified after the divorce. I was extremely stressed all the time and I was grasping at the people in my life for the support I needed.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

It's impacted me in countless ways. When I listen to your podcast episodes, there are so so many things I relate to. I would say that fear has been the biggest factor in affecting my daily life. I was already an anxious person, and then the divorce was just the cherry on top. My brain would constantly race, thinking about my siblings and my parents, worrying that something awful was going to happen to someone. I would catastrophize and then imagine how to prepare for each theoretical, terrible situation. I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. Friendships and relationships felt overwhelming because my family was a heavy weight. Now as a little bit older adult, I still struggle with those things. Praise God, this past year is kind of the first in my life where my family is relatively stable and it's not necessary for me to be their first line of defense in any given emergency, so to speak. I've been in therapy and able to focus on rewiring these defense mechanisms I don't need. But it is very difficult and very exhausting work.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

First and foremost, you are not your broken family. Instead of operating out of a false identity or no identity at all, live from the truth that you are still a beloved daughter or beloved son. That is how we break the cycle of our parents' divorce and unhealthy family dynamics. I know I felt torn and broken, but the truth is you are still whole and you will be okay. You have the ability to choose what your present and future will look like. You can absolutely do these hard things even when you feel worn down and tired. Lastly, find good, solid people and surround yourself with them. Fill your life with people you aspire to imitate, especially happily married couples.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

Support, support, support. We need mentors more than anything, I think. Someone to listen to us and who knows what it's like to be where we've been. We need healthy relationships with people who can show us how to live good lives and how to build holy families. Just like anything else, early intervention is key. We need those mentors as soon as possible after we experience divorce and separation. I think the longer we live with that gaping hole in our hearts without examples of love and support, the more damage is done and the longer it takes to heal.

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Querido Divorcio

3 minute read

The article below was written by Miranda Rodriguez (pictured above). She gave permission for the article to be shared on Restored’s blog. It originally appeared on her blog, Miranda Kate.co. For the English version, go here.

Querido divorcio,

Gracias a ti, aprendí que nada en el mundo dura lo que debería.

Querido divorcio,

Difundes la mentira terrible que la ‘fecilidad’ llega cuando te vas , que esa es la única solución.

Los convenciste de que ‘los niños son resilientes;’ y que al final todo lo que queremos es que ‘sean felices’.

Querido divorcio,

Me enseñaste que no puedo confiar en nadie, ni siquiera en las personas que dicen ‘te amo’, ni siquiera en mi misma.

Querido divorcio,

Me mostraste que mi mundo puede desmoronarse en cualquier momento – así que no puedo ponerme comoda.

Querido divorcio,

Hiciste que las noches fueran una tortura lenta mientras intentaba controlar el dolor sola en la oscuridad.

Deja de llorar

Deja de lorrar

Deja de llorar.

Querido divorcio,

Me enseñaste que tengo que aislarme, mantener mi distancia, quedarme desapegada , y tener miedo en vez de amor.

Querido divorcio,

Me hiciste buscar desesperadamente algo de atención pero desconfiar en el cariño.

Me convenciste de aferrarme en vez de confiar, porque se van a ir.

Se irán.

Querido divorcio,

Causaste que la culpa me siguiera cada día de mi vida. Culpa que me envuelve, aun que no fue mi culpa.

No fue mi culpa

No fue mi culpa

No fue mi culpa.

Querido divorcio,

Hiciste que la cercanía se sintiera inalcanzable, el amor imposible

Querido divorcio,

Me hiciste sentir poco amada – por que no soy digna y nunca voy a ser suficientemente buena.

Me dijiste que hay algo mal conmigo – lo tiene que haber

Querido divorcio,

Me llenaste de furia sin manera de expresarla. Me dijiste que tenía que enterrar la rabia en un lugar muy profundo.

Estoy enojada

Estoy enojada

Querido divorcio,

Me dejaste con el corazón de una niña rota, un corazón demasiado débil para amar, demasiado herido para ser sostenido.

Duele.

Querido divorcio,

Me quitaste mi refugio, mi consuelo, mi seguridad. Te lo robaste.

Bastardo.

Querido divorcio,

Nunca sabrás cómo hacer una promesa a alguien y cumplirla.

Nunca envejecerás con la persona que prometiste ‘hasta que la muerte nos separe.’

Nunca vas a experimentar el amor incondicional de una persona día tras día.

Nunca sabrás lo que es regresar a una casa con las mismas personas, la misma persona, año tras año.

Querido divorcio,

Nunca sabrás lo que significan: las palabras ‘amor’ y ‘famila’ y ‘quedarse’.

Querido divorcio,

Vas a faltar a momentos innumerables. Abrazos, besos, lágrimas y avances, peleas y tristeza, el perdón y la reconciliación, primeros y últimos momentos. Nunca los recuperarás.

Los fantasmas de los recuerdos te perseguirán hasta tu muerte solitaria.

Lo que pudiera haber sido.

Nunca sabrás lo que pudiera haber sido, lo que había al otro lado de quedarse – el perdón, la gracia, el amor.

Te compadezco.

Querido divorcio,

Pensaste que me tenías. Creíste que compraría tus mentiras traicioneras. Pero no lo haré.

Has desviado a muchos otros, los atrajiste con tu llamada de sirena, pero a mi no.

Nunca seré tuyo – he visto demasiado.

El encanto de la ‘libertad’ es nada más que la soledad. La felicidad que prometes es vacía – un agujero negro de deseos egoístas.

Conozco el sufrimiento. Conozco las consecuencias. Conozco el dolor. Lo sé todo.

Nunca te elegiré – nunca en mi vida.

Tu eres oscuro, triste y solo.

Te compadezco.

Querido divorcio,

Gracias a ti, se que nunca seré tuya.

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

I Knew That Not One Bit Of It Was My Fault

5 minute read.

This story was written by Autumn M. at 24 years old. Her parents divorced before she was 14. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

My father started his first of three affairs when my younger brother was a baby. He would put on his bedazzled jeans, whiten his teeth, and go out on "business meetings" Thursday nights with his secretary. Later, he would spend a large portion of his weekends anywhere but home, usually playing this sport or doing a bike ride, all the while meeting (and doing other things besides) with a fellow married triathlete woman.

My mother and father both came from broken families. My father's father was an adulterer himself, even leaving the family for a few years to sow his wild oats. While he eventually came back to the family, I'm sure it was painful for my dad, especially because his mother had "spouse-ified" him due to his emotional tenderness. My father's mother had her father walk out on her shortly after she graduated high school. This pain and suffering led to my grandmother falling into a borderline Christian cult just so some things seemed more certain in her life.

As for my mother, her father was a sexual abuser and her mother did not prevent it. In fact, her mom was in some ways the worse abuser of the two, at least physically and emotionally. My mom's mom had an alcoholic and sexually abusive father. Not surprisingly, her parents' marriage ended in divorce. The vow she made to herself was "I will never get divorced." Then, because of her husband's proclivities, she had to do just that.

My parents told me that Dad was leaving the house when I was 14. I was the only one of my siblings who really understood all of the ramifications – in fact, I had known this was coming. Kids see a lot more than their parents think they do. The music my mom was listening to and the sleeping in separate bedrooms did not go unnoticed by me.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

The rupture was awful. After going back and forth on weekends for a few weeks, I chose my mother, forever. I was old enough to just barely escape the court system's clutches and I never went back to my father's house. My mom quickly became destitute because of the monetary costs of divorce, but she still always paid for my dance classes.

Meanwhile, I had just started high school. During that year, I quickly got sick and developed an immune condition I am still dealing with today. My mother friend-ified me; I unwittingly became her close confidant as she wept and wept over her rage at my father. I knew what my father did was heinous, but it hurt to hear her treat him this way even so.

My brothers continued going back and forth. I wrestled with knowing that I could not protect them from the women my dad would introduce them to. I struggled with the feeling that I was the only one who could stand up to my dad's BS, and I wasn't there. But I knew that if I was there, I would be one step closer to suicide. And I had to stay alive for my brothers. Only recently has my younger brother understood my choice. My older brother still does not.

I felt anxious, betrayed, angry at God, angry at my mom, and angry at my dad. Angry at the world. Unlike other children of divorce, I knew that not one bit of it was my fault. And that made me angrier. It made me angry that my mom treated me as her therapist and if I protested her emotional trauma-dumping, she would say that it made me a bad daughter. I was mad we were poor, I was doubly mad that my dad made off way better in the divorce, despite the myth that the system favors the wife. I couldn't trust, I couldn't believe God loved me. If He had, why did He let this happen to me, I would think.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

Aside from developing depression and two other physical conditions, the divorce sent my faith (what little of it there was) into a death spiral. I became a nervous, sad, unvulnerable person. I struggled with receiving any sort of love and affection. I was hopelessly addicted to pornography, and as a woman, the shame the sin carried was even greater.

The first boyfriend I had had many of the neuroses of my father. Freud would have been proud. Anytime we had a fight, I would think that the relationship was over, a feeling I still struggle with today. I was a walking doormat, a people pleaser, and I could not voice when his behavior made me uncomfortable. Thankfully, through the grace of God and through wonderful friends and mentors, I found God, dumped the boyfriend, and began my healing process that I am still on today. Soon, I would like to meet my father again and forgive him in person.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

When your mom or dad speaks negatively about the other parent, just know that they are speaking out of hurt. They still love you and love the parts of you that are your father's or mother's. They were in love when you were made.

Second, please do not try to hide your pain or struggles so that Mom or Dad will be okay. You have needs and your parents' divorce does not mean that you put them on the back burner.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

I think everyone from a broken family should be given conflict resolution tools. We all struggle with feeling that we are unlovable, so any argument feels like "the other person hates me." This is not true, but we could all use some communication tools to be better able to communicate our feelings in heated moments like these.

---

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Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#119: Broken is What Happened to Me, Not Who I Am | Stacey

After her parents divorced, my guest felt abandoned and badly hoped it was all a dream that she could just wake up from. Dealing with all the brokenness that followed led her down a path of feeling stuck and thinking her brokenness defined her. 

Thankfully, she realized that “‘broken’ is what happened to me, not who I am.” In this episode, we touch on that and more:

• How just having the pain of your parents’ divorce validated is incredibly helpful and often the first step of healing

• The many emotional problems she’s had to battle, including anxiety, depression, anger, self-hate, control, and loneliness

• The tendency in people like us to allow fear to hold us back and cause us to play it safe, but how healing can free us from fear

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

After her parents divorced, Stacey felt abandoned and really hoped it was all just a bad dream that she could wake up from. And dealing with all the brokenness that followed from that led her to feeling really stuck and like her brokenness defined her. But thankfully, she realized that broken is what happened to me, not Who I am.

And so in this episode, we discuss all of that and more like how just having the pain of your parents divorce or your broken family validated by someone else is incredibly helpful. And often the first step of healing. She shares really vulnerably the many emotional problems that she's had to battle with over the years connected to.

The breakdown of her family and her parents, uh, divorce. She shares things like anxiety, depression, anger, loneliness, self hate, and even a tendency toward control. We also touch on how healing hurts, but we need to act in order to heal despite the pain. The pain, we also discussed the tendency in people like us from broken families to allow fear to control us and hold us back.

And really that causes us to play it safe in life, but how healing can free us from that fear. And we also offer some advice like how getting outside of yourself and loving other people can actually be incredibly. Healing. So stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage.

So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 119.

As I often say, we're so happy that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback from you. One listener said this, she said, The podcast has helped me to not feel crazy for feeling certain ways and situations and relationships. It has helped me to realize why I am the way I am and learn about myself through that.

It has helped me face up to certain realities about my past, and it is just nice to hear the nuanced explanations about rare cases when divorce is necessary, like for the family safety that happened in my own family. Thank you again. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthier, perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you. This is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, and 75 year olds and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment. But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I want to mention three things.

One, he's done it himself. He's, he's a very ripped, strong, strong man. Dude, uh, he's also just a good man. He's not just worried about his body and fitness, but about every area of his life. Uh, second thing is they actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And from that experience, uh, in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully.

Human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body, we really need to care for it all. So we can become more virtuous and free to love. And the third thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people get strong or ripped. It's really to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

And so if you desire freedom, if you desire that transformation of your body and even your life, Dakota can help you. One client of his said this, Dakota Lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny.

If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further. Dakota Lane. Is your man to see what Dakota offers and the amazing transformations, uh, that his clients have had. Just go to his website, Dakota lane fitness. com. You can even Google that Dakota lane fitness.

com, or you can click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Stacy. Stacy is a wife of almost 25 years and the mom of three young adult children, one of whom will be married this year. As a child of divorce herself, she has a tender heart for children and teens suffering from the effects of their parents.

divorce. Stacey and her husband, Jamie, spent 19 years on their parish, uh, pre Cana marriage prep team where they gave their testimony and shared the beauty of living out God's plan for marriage and sexuality. Her experience as a latch key kid greatly influenced her decision, uh, to stay home with her children, whom she homeschooled for 10 years.

And when Stacey heard of restored and heard of this podcast, she thought I could have used that as a kid. And so she hopes that sharing her story will help others on their journey toward restoration. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here.

This is not a strictly religious podcast. Anyone who's been listening for a while knows that. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to learn a lot. And this episode is going to help you, I promise.

With that, here's my conversation with Stacy. Stacy, welcome to the show. Hi, Joey. Good to be here. I'm excited to speak with you and really appreciate you. Yeah, sticking your neck out the hair and being willing to, you know, come on and help the younger people to just navigate all the brokenness in their families.

And I know like me, you, you know, come from a broken family as well. And so I'm curious, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced and to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing? What happened? Um, I was 10 when they separated. Um, and it was presented as, you know, we're getting separated, but, you know.

When you hear that as a kid, you're like, uh, that means divorce, you know? Um, initially there was, you know, I could tell there was tension between my parents. There was some fighting going on. Um, at some point my mom kind of like moved into my bedroom and I was moved into my sister's bedroom. And, um, eventually I actually overheard her telling my grandmother.

I was, like, on the stairs near our kitchen, and she was in the kitchen, and I overheard her telling my grandmother that they were getting separated. And then eventually she told me. Um, herself. Um, so yeah, so that's how I found out. And it was pretty traumatic. I can imagine. And was this something that kind of, even though you saw the problems within the marriage, was it kind of out of the blue that they were separate and getting divorced?

Or did you kind of predict that that was coming? You know, I don't recall feeling like that was going to happen. Like I knew that things weren't good, but I. I don't know. I don't know if a little, as a little kid, you like fathom that. And you know, I'm a little older, I think than you're most of the people that you talk to.

So this was back in the early eighties when there aren't weren't as many divorced families, um, as there are now. So I didn't know that many kids. I don't know how, I don't even know if I knew any kids whose parents were divorced. Um, so it just, yeah, probably wasn't as much on my radar than maybe it would be for someone today.

Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. It's definitely become somewhat normalized even though it's still, it's kind of this weird thing where we, yeah, divorce is kind of this normal part of life, but we don't really talk about it in the sense of how it is impactful and harmful for the kids. Yeah. And so, yeah, I totally know what you're saying, but is that that extra like stigma that you had to fight through?

I'm sure it was not an easy thing to go through. Yeah. I mean, I remember feeling so ashamed. Um, like going to school knowing so we had My mom was the one we moved out. Um, so, um, my dad stayed in the house for a little while. We moved out, which meant we had to actually move to a, um, new school. And, um, we were only about 15 minutes from where we were, but it was.

You know, far enough that it was a new school. So I had to go to school and I had to tell people that I was leaving and I was so ashamed to tell them that it was because my parents were getting divorced. And, um, so yeah, there was like this stigma there. And, um, I remember I had this wonderful teacher. I was in fifth grade and I told her and she, she actually, Bought me lunch and like sat with me and, you know, talk to me and stuff.

Um, tried to make me feel better in whatever way she could make me feel better. No, that totally makes sense. And wow, that's impressive that that teacher would do that. I, the response that we've heard a lot of times, there was one young woman who came on the podcast and she said that she told her teachers, she told her friends and everyone kind of knew also, cause it was a little bit of a public separation, she said, and everyone acted like it wasn't a big deal.

Everyone acted like it was kind of like a normal part of life kind of like, okay, you know, whatever move on with it And I remember she said she felt so hurt by that because who she was like wait Why am I struggling so much with this if everyone says this is for the best? This is everyone's gonna be happier and I'm so hurt by it.

Maybe something's wrong with me And I think that's a very common response So it's awesome you had a teacher at least who tried to acknowledge that yeah, man This is a difficult thing to go through. Well, I mean You Generally speaking, she was the anomaly. Like generally speaking, that's. That's how it was for me as well.

It was kind of like, oh, you know, kids are resilient, they'll, they'll be okay. Like there's, there seems to be this unwillingness, um, by the adults to acknowledge that divorce is harmful to children, even people who I can understand that with people who actually get divorced because. You know, they're probably trying to make themselves feel a little bit better about it.

Um, but like people who haven't been through divorce, even in our culture, it just seems to be, yeah, just a lack of acknowledgement of the effects that it can have on, on kids and, and this desire to, to minimize it. And honestly, I, that happened to me all through my teen years, even my young adult years, even into my thirties.

Um, I did have. You know, a couple of people along the way who noticed my brokenness, but there was still this unwillingness until I was probably in my thirties. I had a, a therapist who finally said to me like, Oh no, like that's, that's your big thing. Like that's where everything else comes from. That the divorce of your parents was.

huge in your life. And I felt like validated finally for like the first time in my life because I had like an adult saying to me, yeah, that really messed you up. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. No, that sounds super impactful. And I totally know what you mean. In fact, we've heard a lot of feedback from even this podcast alone about how validating and helpful it is because of that alone.

It's like, just someone's like putting into words in a way, you know, what They went through as like really harmful and damaging. And I, like, I've even had people reach out in like their 60s who say what you just said, and even just to us saying like, I've never heard anyone put language to this problem the way that you and your guests are doing.

And it's very helpful. It's validating like you said. And so, of course, the goal, I know you and I would agree on this, like, the goal is to help us to kind of, you know, learn how to best navigate this and to move on in life. We don't want to stay stuck in the past, but in a sense, like we need to grieve that we need to.

Just, yeah, like you said, like just someone to validate the heaviness of it and the fact that it's like really impactful, um, in order to be able to, to move forward in life. Absolutely. And, you know, I feel like if we can do that, like it's, it's hard, it's going to be hard, but like, if you can have that step one, then you can take step two, you know, like, I feel like if, if people are constantly telling you or ignoring your pain or telling you, you know, It wasn't that big a deal or you're telling yourself because I used to tell myself that too.

Like, you know, I would hear somebody else's story and I would say, Oh, thankfully my parents divorce wasn't that bad, you know, and sort of minimizing it even to myself. Um, and the reality is that everyone is different. Also, we all, Like I was a very sensitive. I'm a very sensitive person. Like, I guess I would be considered a highly sensitive person, but I was like that, you know, from the time I was a child, um, people labeled me sensitive, shy, that kind of thing.

So like, take someone like me who has such a sensitive personality. Heart and soul and have what happened, which was not like there was no abuse. There was no, um, infidelity. There was, it was just a marriage that just. Failed, you know, and so I didn't have all these like extreme trauma situations in that, but it's still really traumatized me because of how I made, you know, and, and what I needed as a kid, I needed that security.

No, that makes so much sense. Thanks for sharing that. The definition of trauma that we learned from a therapist that we partner with is that trauma is anything that overwhelms your natural ability to cope. And so you're right. And some scenarios, maybe people through training or through some sort of, you know, natural ability, have the ability to kind of cope with more difficult things or things that are more challenging.

Another person might not be able to, but honestly, since what I've seen is like divorce is almost always traumatic. I'm tempted to say it is always traumatic from the data I've seen in the Hundreds of stories I've heard if not more, um, but it is, it is in itself traumatic regardless of what led up to it, which can also be traumatic too, right?

I was curious, you know, following the divorce and everything that happened in the family, how did you see that impact you? Well, being sensitive the way that I am, um, and also being shy and kind of like socially anxious just as a kid be prior to all of this, you know, um, um, One of the things that happened is my mom went to work full time and so we were left home alone a lot.

I had an eight year old sister so I was kind of in charge of her after school. I developed a lot of anger at being, having to be so responsible and also a lot of fears of, because I was alone a lot and I felt um, like abandoned. I used to go to bed at night and just pray that I would wake up in the morning and it would all have been a dream.

And I started to cope in very unhealthy ways. A lot of my friendships were very unhealthy. I would gravitated towards people who were broken and they sort of helped break me even more. Uh, I had unhealthy relationships with. Boys and men gravitated towards people who were broken, who broke me even more.

And, you know, just a lot of self destructive kind of behaviors, like as I got older, like the older I got in my teenage years and my, you know, like early, like college years, I would say I got the more self destructive I got. And I did a lot of coping with, alcohol and things like that to try to numb, to try to, you know, with the social anxiety, it was like trying to mitigate that.

But also just the, I think I just developed this like deep self loathing because I just did not feel loved or lovable anymore. And then, you know, the more that you do that self destructive, the worse it gets, the more the self loathing gets because you go, why am I doing these things? Why is this happening?

And then, you know, you have people in your life who are treating you poorly or leading you down these bad pathways to all these other things. So, um, I think that's, you know, that all stems from the, the lack of security, like the destruction of security that I had and the loneliness. I was deeply lonely. I still struggle with loneliness.

In my life just internally, um, even though I'm surrounded by amazing people who, who love me, you know, there's just, you know, it's a wound. It's a wound that still exists that I have to, you know, continue to work on. Sure. Wow. No, thank you for sharing. And, and there's so much I want to say. I, um, Yeah, I can relate with the loneliness, certainly, and feeling abandoned and, you know, wishing it was a dream, like, that's a definitely a moving way to put it.

It makes so much sense, like, what we've seen a lot of times is if we, you know, are traumatized by the breakdown of our family, by our parents of worse, we tend to, you know, like you said, go towards unhealthy people and behaviors. And then, like you said so well, those situations can traumatize us further, and then we go into further.

Unhealthy toward unhealthy people and behaviors and it's just this whole like circle the cycle that repeats itself again and again To where I mean i've talked with people who are just at the point of like giving up They're like I i'm so sick and tired of this. I my life is just miserable. I feel stuck I'm, just in a really rough spot.

And so Definitely hear you there and excited to hear the happier part of the story, but man, how heavy and how difficult and yeah, I'm curious to, you know, in your relationships, how that played out as well. Like, what, what, um, did you see in terms of your dating relationships and even your marriage already touched on the relationships a little bit, but I'm curious further of like, how did the breakdown of your family, your parents, divorce impact your relationships?

Yeah. So I'm sure you experienced like a feeling of powerlessness. Um, and so. The way I coped with that is I became controlling. And so, um, and that is something to this day. I, I really struggle with, I'm a lot better than I used to be. And I, but I'm also very much aware of it. So I ha I work on it. I'm working on it constantly, but you know, so, so there was that, then I also felt voiceless.

So I have a tendency to be Reactionary. So like if something happens and I'm not happy about it, you're going to hear it. You're going to know about it because I'm not going to be. I'm not going to be voiceless, you know, um, so, you know, in my marriage that, that has played out and it's, it's something that we've had to work on.

Um, you know, my husband is an, an amazing man and very, very patient. Um, he's also got his own wounds and, you know, in marriage, your wounds kind of usually butt up against your spouse's wounds and then you have to try to figure out how to, how to work that all out. Um, and. We have worked really hard at that.

So, um, but one of the ways that especially played out in my marriage, that was my, my husband owns a business. And when we got married, it was probably the most intense, intensely difficult time in there. Um, it really was, it was really difficult, um, for me at that time and. Because of the anxiety and, and the depression that I suffered with, I felt like, I feel like I couldn't really love my kids the way that they deserve to be loved.

You know, I, I regret that and I, I still have to try to ask God to heal that part. Um, I mean, I, I did what I, Needed to do I wasn't neglectful but like just there wasn't there was an internal part of me that just couldn't give you know everything that I would have liked to have given to them when they were kids and I also parented kind of out of.

Rather than abundance. So like I was fearful of things happening to them and I was, I didn't, I don't think I was able to give them the freedom that they should have had as kids to really be kids, you know, because I was too afraid all the time that something terrible was going to happen to them. So. Yeah, those are pretty intense ways that it affected me, but there is good news.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you just sharing so vulnerably. And I know I can relate to so much of your story and I know our listeners can too. And yeah, no, I've noticed that in my own life, it seems like. Our, yeah, our brokenness just holds us back in so many ways, like one of the ways in which I know it's held me back is I'm definitely I'm going to avoid an attachment type where I tend to like love at arm's length.

And I try to work through that, but like, yeah, there's times where I'm just really bad. Like, I'll just be honest with everyone. And so like, I need to kind of bring myself back to the point of like, okay, I'm not self sufficient. I need other people and I need to like love them and, you know, put my heart out there and be vulnerable and not just like, you know, try to put a shield around myself and my heart.

But, you know, especially when people hurt you, it can, it's a really easy reaction to, to go towards. But, you know, so that holds you back in the sense of, you know, you're not going to experience the joy, the intimacy, the love, the happiness that I think we're made for. And so, you know, and other things I've heard from people like us who come from divorced, broken families is, you know, there's so much fear, like, I think that's one theme we've seen so clearly among all these interviews we've done is like, there's just so much fear that we grapple with, not to say that other people don't, but it seems like there, there's like a certain intensity or we feel maybe a certain lack of competence or ability to like navigate through that fear.

Or maybe we just, you know, feel it. Like I said, more strongly, and that just holds us back. Like, I know a lot of older people I've talked to come from, you know, uh, broken families, like, especially maybe in there in like sixties or beyond, they have regrets of like, man, I never took that risk. I never started that business.

I never like pursued that, you know, person, that girl, that guy. And, um, and I, we've definitely seen that theme. So yeah, just curious if you have any thoughts on kind of that whole theme of like being held back and fear being having such a strong grip on so many of us. Oh my gosh. Yes. And, and. You know, I think it's because we have this deep sense of what loss feels like.

And so, you know, we don't want to lose anymore. You know, we don't want to have, we don't want to have that feeling of loss. And so we hold on to what we have and we don't take the risks that could cause the losses. And, you know, for some people, for me, it didn't manifest this way, but for some people, it means I'm never getting married.

Because I, because I can't risk that, that I'm going to do the same thing that my parents did or whatever, um, you know, it manifests in different people in different ways. And it absolutely has manifested that way in my life. And I'm, I'm just now getting to the point where I'm starting to take more risks and, and realizing, like, I have to surrender.

I have to surrender this control that I've I It's really an illusion. It's not, you know, you're not, we're not in control of anything. You know, we, we're trying to control things. We're not, we're not in control of anything. So like, what's the point? No, it's so true. I even think of that on like the career side, like when I've, you know, making the shift to doing this full time, I was like really afraid of losing, losing like a stable job and all of that.

And then, you know, as you're married an entrepreneur, some of you guys are immune to this, but, you It's, uh, yeah, no, it was just like, so fearful. And then it was so funny once I made at least the partial shift, I'm actually in the process now of making the full shift. I was like, Oh, that's it. Like, all right, I could do this.

Like I can make it through. So, and I think that's a good part to add here, perhaps it's like that, like you said, those fears can often be just this illusion. And the desire to control can just be the solution. Then when we look at it, it's like, you know, like using the career example, it's like, okay, there are certainly like stable, like jobs and businesses out there that are, you know, can add a level of stability to that.

Maybe going on your own would be really hard to achieve, at least in the short term. But at the end of the day, it's like, I mean, what we saw through COVID and everything, it's like, things can change very quickly. And what you thought was one stable, like becomes Pretty darn unstable. And so I think there's, it kind of forces you to like surrender.

Um, especially like in your relationship with God, it's like, man, I really don't control this stuff. Like you said so well, it's, it really is an illusion. And I think that's where I've personally found a lot of peace in life. It's like, God's going to put things on my plate. He wants me to do well with them, but then beyond like the things that are within my control, even then I have to surrender, you know, everything, including that stuff to Him.

And that That, that's definitely helped me because I struggle. I've struggled with anxiety too. And at times I could get, you know, more intense than others. But, um, yeah, that surrender certainly played a huge role because you're right. It's nothing's fully stable. Sadly, I want to shift to kind of the happier part of the story and just, you know, kind of the transformation.

And so I'm curious, what were some of the things that helped you to, to cope and healthy ways and to heal? I think I would say first, My relationship with my husband, you know, I met him, we were in college and I was pretty broken at that time. He was a little broken himself and God just brought us together at that particular time.

And he was, came from a Catholic family. I came from a family where I was baptized and, and I made my first penance and my first Holy communion. Um, but then my parents split up and we were sort of like, Nominal Catholics anyway, um, so I never made my confirmation and I didn't even know when I met my husband, I didn't even know if I believed in God at that point because I thought, you know, it's all this terrible things have happened to me.

Like, how could there be a God, you know, that's where I was. Um, so anyway, when I met him, he sort of his influence on me. Was really like the starting point of my healing journey, which continues to this day because he Eventually kind of had like a reversion and and really started getting serious about his faith And he kind of brought me along with him and it was sort of like you're either coming along with me or we're breaking up you know like I You know, I love you, but I, I have to be married to someone who's Catholic and I have to be, you know, in the same universe there.

So, um, I am a truth seeker and I always have been. So I just started looking into things and they just started bringing true to me. And so I made my confirmation as a, I was almost 25 when I made my confirmation. So that was, that was like probably the initial thing. But then, um, You know, there was periods of time when I needed therapy and I already spoke of the one therapist, this was a Catholic therapist.

if anyone's, you know, if you're Catholic or Christian, I really recommend a Catholic or Christian therapist who really will speak the same language as you and who, who sees marriage in the same light, you know, cause like for me to go to a secular therapist who maybe would think divorce is okay, that that wasn't going to be helpful for me.

Um, so to have that therapist say, like, Yeah, that was your that's your like your primal wound that also was very healing and it set me on a path of healing. You know, having, having different thoughts about what happened. And then I, more than the therapy, at least having like the life of the church, the life of the church, the sacraments, the community, um, just being in community with people.

We were involved in charismatic prayer for a while. That was extremely healing. Um, because I learned more about. God and his love and what he wanted to do for us. And I developed a community of people in our parish and also through homeschooling. We homeschooled for 10 years and that got me involved in some Bible studies.

And I developed these friendships that were very vulnerable. And that has been one of the biggest ways that I've healed is through these relationships with people who are also willing to be vulnerable about. their stories, people who will pray with me. Um, we pray for each other. And, um, so those, those have been extremely healing.

I've also been blessed to be introduced to deliverance prayer. And for those who don't know, deliverance prayer is really just Identifying where the enemy, the devil has gained access to you through your wounds and whispered lies into your life and over you and, and who has, you know, and where you've kind of agreed with them.

Like, so, for example, like, I'm unlovable is a lie and that comes from, um, My parents must not have loved me enough to stay together. So, like, that's a lie. And then you agree with that lie, and you go, That must be true. And then you start operating out of that lie. Like, I actually am unlovable. Which is false.

So, Deliverance Prayer is really, like, renouncing those lies and saying, You know, in the name of Jesus, I renounced that lie. And, um, that was extremely helpful for me to go through all the lies and the vows and the curses and all the things that have, like, piled on through the years. Yeah, no, so good. I want you to continue, but I, um Just wanted to comment on like that, the intimacy portion.

I mean, all everything you said is so good, but the, the way that I've understood it, like listening to dr. Bob shoots, for example, um, I forget who he quotes when he says this, but he was saying like at the root of every wound is a deprivation or a distortion of love. And so it like naturally follows that to.

To heal those wounds, we need authentic love, you know, in, in various forms, right? You talked about your relationship with God, you talked about your relationship with your husband, other people, like, it makes sense that like authentic love would be so healing and beautiful. And that's one of the principles we preach to is, you know, healing happens in relationship.

Like it can't happen elsewhere. Like we can't really, yeah. Listening to a podcast, reading a book, doing getting the content is good. It's like one of the steps in this whole process. But eventually you have to go beyond that. And so it sounds, you know, like that was extremely helpful and fruitful for you, which is beautiful, but I'm curious.

Yeah. Anything else to add in terms of what helped you to heal? Yeah. I mean, The way to heal feeling unlovable is to allow people to love you. And I have so many people who love me and I feel incredibly blessed because of that. Like, sometimes it brings me just to tears that the, the number of people who God has brought into my life to love me and, and then give me the opportunity to love back.

It is that relationship. Relationship is one of the biggest ways to healing has been for me. So good. No, I love it. And one of the things I just learned from you too, is that like the, the answer to insecurities is evidence in the sense that like, we need to be shown and told and very like concrete ways that like, no, like you said, believe in that lie that I'm unlovable.

We need evidence to say that, no, that's actually not true. Because one of the things I've seen in like the whole self, self help, you know, personal development world is like, they'll tell you to like, talk to a mirror, write down in your journal, like these things that you, you know. believe that are true about you.

But if there's no evidence to back it up, like you can't point to some other person or situation, like God being one of them, or, you know, your relationships, then I think it just is empty. We're saying things that maybe, you know, they might be true in the end, but if we don't have like any evidence to back them up with, and I think it can be tricky and problematic and we end up doubting it.

But when you have that clear evidence, like again, people in your life where you like telling you these things are showing you through their actions, then I think it's way more convincing. Um, you know, we're always at work in progress. We talk about healing as like this infinite goal of like, you know, we're always becoming like better, stronger, more virtuous, more whole, more healthy, healthier.

Um, but I'm curious, kind of the transformation that you've seen from that younger you to where you are now, like contrast that a little bit for us. Like what's different now? Yeah. I mean, I definitely, I feel like healing comes in layers and it comes in seasons and it comes, um, sometimes it comes all at once in a flurry, sometimes it's super slow and I've experienced all those things in my life and I feel like I may, while I still struggle with anxiety, I still struggle with depression, I am much more able to surrender.

And when I'm experiencing those things to go to God and just say, God, I just, I can't do this. I need you to do this for me. One of the things that has helped me a lot is adoration and just really just going in front of the blessed sacrament and just. Just laying it all out, you know, and just saying, God, I, I can't, I can't.

There was a period of time five or six years ago where I was in the Adoration Chapel almost every day because I needed to be there with Jesus. And it helped me tremendously. But I also now can look back and say, that was a very, very healing time because I was so stripped down and I was so vulnerable that he really worked.

A lot. And really it set the stage for where I am today, the certain risks that I'm now taking in certain areas where God is saying like, go here, do this, you know, and I also am able, I feel like I'm much more self aware. I know what my triggers are. I know what my wounds are and I'm, I'm starting to be able to operate outside of my wounds instead of in them all the time, you know, there's a period of time in my life where I was just everything I did was just out of my wounds, you know, like every reaction I had every step I took was all out of my wounds.

And now I feel like. I can sort of step back and, and see the wounds and they're there and I feel them still, but they're not ruling me constantly, you know, and I think I, I've developed a compassion for the younger me, you know, I hated the younger me for the longest time for being so dumb and getting involved in all these things that were hurtful and for being, you know, in my mind, weak and, you know, all these different things that, you know, The self loathing and stuff like now i think i have more compassion for my younger self i think it's why i can have i have a lot of compassion for people who are going through kids who are going through what what i went through and i also feel like i'm growing a lot in trust and surrender and trying to grow in humility i feel like i think when you have these kinds of wounds you're it can be real um, Pitfall for, for pride to like really jump in because you have this sense of justice and this feeling of like, I have to protect myself.

And so like everything becomes about you and what you you're getting out of things and, and how you're not going to get hurt and you're not going to let this happen and all that. And I think that can be, it can cause a lot of pride in our lives. The pride thing is so interesting. I've never heard it said exactly like that, but it makes so much sense that we, yeah.

Cause like, I guess the essence of pride is kind of like continue looking in on yourself, you know, continue looking, being kind of self absorbed self. And sometimes, you know, There is that kind of survival, survival, survivor instinct that we do that when we're wounded, right? We kind of just, if we're in pain, we need to take care of the pain and the wound.

But it is really interesting. And I think that is a, such a pivotal part of healing is kind of going outside of yourself, going beyond yourself. And I found that helpful too. I've mentioned in other podcasts just, yeah, the advice, you know, I've gotten from mentors where it's like, okay, I know you're hurting, I know you're, And you need to heal that.

But one of the things that can be so helpful is just kind of looking beyond your own pain and finding people in your life who you can love and you can help. And again, not as an escape from dealing with their own stuff, because I think it can be used that way, but really as a way of like, okay, there's other people in the world who are suffering too.

And I've, that's just been helpful for me, but yeah, just that whole idea of humility of like not putting yourself down. Like CS Lewis said, I said this not long ago in an episode, it's like, you're not thinking. Less of yourself, just thinking of yourself less. Yes. I totally agree with that. I, yes, I feel like in order to heal, um, you do have to get outside of yourself because we, we tend to go.

Inside, we tend to, you know, think about constantly what happened to us or what went wrong or whatever. And I think in any situation, and I'm just talking about divorce, anything, anytime you have someone who's experienced trauma, I feel like part of the healing is. Getting outside of yourself outside of your own mind and helping other people.

And, you know, at some point I, um, I don't know where if I came across this or if it was given to me just in like revelation, but I got this, um, word that was given to me. You don't need to be healed in order to do you need to do in order to be healed and that has really been beautiful that has been sort of a quote that has played in my mind over and over over the last few years as I've experienced really a much deeper healing period and.

you know, I felt like God has really called me out of myself in the last few years and, and said like, no, you need to start doing like, I know you don't feel totally equipped and I know you don't feel totally ready. And I know that you still have these issues that you deal with, but you need to start doing, and that's where the healing is going to come.

And as I've done things, yes, that is, that has been true. And so then that reinforces to me, like, okay, God's got me. He His word is true. What he's saying to me is true when I pray and I get these. You know words from him like it's it's true and I have to I have to listen Beautiful. Well, I love that and I I was thinking of just like kind of the physical form of what you just said of like You know Don't wait to heal to do like do and then you'll be healed through that and I was thinking of a surgery I got while while back and I remember the doctors telling me like, okay, it's gonna be painful And this is counterintuitive, but you need to like move a lot.

You need to walk a lot in order to get blood flow to the wound in order for it to heal. And it was, it was, it was painful to do that. But as I did it, the wound healed and I got better. And now I have, you know, full function of that part of my body. And so, um, it would have been really easy though, kind of to your point to think, well, I'll start walking and moving when I feel healed, but it's like, no, no, no.

It's like through the walking, the moving, Then you feel healed. So I thought that was really interesting that there's like a physical truth there too. Yeah. I mean, I experienced that similarly last year. I broke my foot and I was on crutches for like eight weeks and in a boot for another eight weeks. And by the time it was all over, it hurt to walk.

And you know, so I had to go to physical therapy and they had to manipulate it and it hurt. And you know, I had to do these exercises, but now it's, you know, it's all better and it is going to hurt. Do I think a lot of people want to just like turtle up and I, I turtled up, you know, for a long time, I just curled up in a ball and didn't do anything.

And I think a lot of people want to let their wounds sit there and just let them, you know, heal, but they're not always going to heal. Sometimes they have to be scraped out, you know, and sometimes. I heard, I listened to this podcast sometimes called the place we find ourselves. And I remember, you know, that, yeah, great podcast.

Um, and he, I remember him talking about the healing of wounds and how, you know, you have to go down into the valley in order to get back up to the mountain top. You know, so and you have to go through it. There's no way around it if you want to get up to the top of that mountain, you have to go through that valley.

You can't go around it. And yeah, it's hard and it's painful, but it's so worth it. And it's so rewarding when you get to the top and you can say, Oh, my gosh, I did it. You know, I made it through that. And then you're you are stronger. You really are. Yeah. Stronger. Everything that I've gone through has made me a stronger person.

I love that. And then you're better able to love. And I think one of the things I've seen too, when it comes to just healing in the people's lives is that like, when you kind of walk through that, you, on the other side of maybe comfort of shut shelling up on the other side of like, you know, the brokenness is freedom, that there's a lot of freedom, but you said, you're right.

Like there's pain in the middle, which I think scares a lot of people. Cause we, we don't like pain obviously, but we don't know. Maybe if it'll, Will be worth it. We don't know if we're going to be able to get to the mountaintop. Um, and so I totally get that there's a lot of like doubts and insecurities there, but, but I've found, yeah, when you kind of work through that, you feel free and you truly find freedom, but it is painful to get there.

And I think too, there's definitely a trend right now. And I'm curious your thoughts on this and our world of just kind of falling into this like perpetual victim mode mentality, right? Where we. Yeah, just kind of blame everything and anyone around us for not being, you know, able to move forward in life.

And I'm not talking about like serious disabilities, things like that, but you know, I haven't even seen this in myself. It can be easy to blame even our parents, you know, and one of the ways that we talk about this, just to clarify anyone who's confused on this is like, we're not saying not to acknowledge the pain that someone caused, or even the fact that they like, they did that, they, they need to take ownership of that.

But the way we talk about it is like, even if you didn't cause the problem, you can take ownership of the solution. You don't need to let that define your life. You don't need to let that someone else write your own story. Like you can write your own story. And we're big believers in that. Um, so, but yeah, it's sad to see, especially, you know, in younger generations, um, you know, Just how like debilitating I think brokenness and wounds can be, like you said, where we just kind of shell up and just be like, well, this is what my life is going to be like now.

Can't really improve it. Get any better. Um, even if there was this kind of long shot, I could, it's not really worth it to go through it. So just curious on your thoughts on the whole victim mentality thing. I mean, I definitely had that mentality for a long time and it's really hard when you're feeling, you know, stuck to get out of that.

Honestly, like I, there were times when I wanted to give up or plenty of times when I wanted to give up, but then I, I looked around me and I thought, like, I would see my kids or I would see my husband and I would say, like, uh, they deserve me to be better. They deserve for me to be more whole and I deserve for me to be more whole.

Like, I don't have to be like this. I don't broken is what happened to me. It's not who I am. You know, like. I'm not Stacy, the broken woman, I'm Stacy, and I have some brokenness because of what happened to me. Like, I can't define myself by that. For so many years, I think I defined myself by my brokenness, by my wounds, by my things that I did that were shameful.

And, you know, I just, at some point, You have to make a decision. Like, this is your life. You only get one. You have to decide. Do you want to live stuck in your wounds and feeling sorry for yourself your whole life? Or do you want to try to climb out of that and live abundantly and joyfully? And does that mean you're not gonna suffer?

No. Like, we're all gonna suffer. I'm gonna suffer a lot more before I die. So are you. So is everybody else. But it doesn't mean that you're not going to have joy in your life and that it's, it's not worth it. It is worth it. It's, it's so worth it. Wow. So good. I have nothing to add. Like you said that so beautifully that thank you and shifting gears a little bit and coming to the close of our conversation.

I'm just curious if you were to sit down with your parents and talk to them about this, or maybe if they were, you know, happened to listen to this, what would you want them to know? Like, I mean, I'm very blessed because my parents. Got to a place where we actually like do holidays together and stuff, you know, and I'm also very blessed because my mom has had the humility to let me talk to her about how I was wounded and, and to sit there and, and listen and be open to that.

And it has been very healing for me, but also very healing for our relationship. And so. You know, I don't I'm not talking about this because I want to blame like you said, like, I don't blame my parents. I don't have animosity toward my parents. I love my parents. They're wonderful people. Um, I forgive them for, you know, the ways that they failed me.

I hope my kids. will forgive me someday for the ways that I failed them. I want to be able to help other people see that this is not the end of the road for them, you know, and that's why I want to talk about these things. And, you know, I feel like you have to talk about them. In order to, to bring them into the light, because you can't heal broken things if you, if they're in the darkness, you know, you have to bring all things to the light and I know people don't like to talk about these things, but you have to, I feel like with anything that's broken, it needs to be talked about in order for it to, to heal.

And also I'm, you know, in terms of my parents, like, everything that I went through. It was just, honestly, the other day I was in adoration and I was sitting there and I was just praying. And I thought, and all of a sudden this flood of like the tapestry of my life came to me and how God worked all the things that happened for good.

And all of the different people who have come into my life and all of the wonderful things that have happened to me and all that. It was, it was just an opening of my eyes to like, it's not all bad. It wasn't all bad and it's not going to be all bad. You know, there's so much good in your life and there's so much joy in your life and there's so much left still for you to do in your life.

And so, you know, I just want to, I want people to have hope that even if they're dealing with brokenness and pain, that they're not always going to be that way. And even if they have periods of Healing where they're feeling better, and then they kind of regress. It's okay, like, you're not gonna stay there.

You're gonna, you're gonna move forward again. Cause, you know, St. Teresa of Avila says, like, um, let nothing disturb you. All things are passing. You know, all things are passing. And God alone suffices. And, if you bring it to God, Then he will, weave it into a beautiful tapestry. No, I love all that. And I think there's even lessons for any parents listening right now, just how your mom was able to listen to you and, you know, perhaps she asked some questions and was able to kind of take ownership of her piece of it.

I think that's really, really big. And, uh, yeah, and then you both are able to, you know, you were able to get to a point of forgiving her, which is really, really beautiful. Um, so good. And I love that reminder too. I mean, there's so much in what you said, but one thing I wanted to point out too, is that when you kind of go on this path of trying to heal from brokenness, then we need to be ready to give ourselves some grace to along the way.

Like we can't expect. You know, like perfection in this process, because it's messy, it's not going to be perfect. And if you do expect that, which I know so many of us who come from broken families do kind of struggle with the control that we talked about before perfectionism. And, uh, if you do expect that, then it's going to be, yeah, just a really difficult process.

Much more difficult process for you. So I think just giving yourself grace, kind of how you might give grace to another person who you saw is like, man, they're going through a hard time. I think is, is really, really good. But then, like you said, also having that hope that like, there's so much good ahead of you that, That if you, you know, work at it and rely on God's grace, like you said, you can experience that.

Like, I firmly believe that. In closing, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on here. I know this is like, um, it's an act of bravery. I don't say that enough when people come on here to share their stories, because it's not an easy thing to do. So thank you. And I just wanted to give you the last word when it comes to, you know, what would you say to the younger you to that?

young woman who's listening right now, who maybe feels stuck in life. They feel broken. They're acting out in all these sorts of ways. Like, what would you want to say to them? I would say like, for me, I wish I had been, I wish I had been able to articulate to the adults in my life that how much I was hurting.

I wish I'd been able to articulate that to the adults in my life, um, how much I was hurting and like, you do have a voice and you can use your voice and you don't have to sit back and say like, I can't say anything because it'll hurt my mom's feelings or my dad will be upset. Or I don't really have a voice because this isn't my thing.

You know, like I just have to go along and not say anything. Like I would say it. And if you feel like you can't talk to your parents. Talk to a trusted person that you, you know, adult, a pastor, a family member, a friend, whoever it is, and, and know that how you're feeling is, is normal. Like, there's nothing abnormal about you.

There's nothing abnormal about how you're reacting to this. There's nothing abnormal about how you're feeling. And there's nothing wrong. You're not wrong. So, just understand that your, your feelings matter. That would be, that would be one thing. And then, another thing would be, if you're, especially if like you're a young adult and you're discerning marriage.

I would say if you can work through some of your divorce pain prior to getting married, whether that be alone or with your, um, future spouse or, you know, then I would highly recommend that because we do bring our baggage into our marriages with us and unaddressed wounds and pain can become real problems in relationships.

And if we don't have the awareness of. You know, our thought patterns and behaviors and stuff like that. It can be, it can be difficult to navigate once you're already married. So that, that would be a suggestion that I have. There's so much I loved about that interview. Stacy has really deep insights into healing and brokenness, and I'm really grateful that she joined us.

And if you'd like to share your story with us, like Stacy did, We'd love to hear it. You can do it in three simple steps. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story in a really active way and sharing that story with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level.

According to a neurobiologist, it actually makes your brain healthier. Writing your story is also healing. There's been numerous studies that show that People who write about emotionally significant events in their life are happier, they're healthier, they're less depressed, less anxious, and so many other great benefits.

And also, sharing your story can be super helpful to someone who's maybe going through what you went through and who can learn some lessons from you. By reading your story. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com slash story. And on that page, you just fill out a form that tells a short version of your story.

And then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com slash story, or just click on the link. And the show notes, if you come from a broken or divorced family, or maybe, you know, someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Our resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of our resources are really designed to help you heal from the trauma you've endured and build virtue. So you can break the cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view these resources for yourself or someone, you know, just go to restored.

mini. com.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them. I promise you, they will be super grateful that you did. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

They Both Make Me Feel Trapped.

2 minute read.

This story was written by Alexandria Boness at 16 years old. Her parents divorced before she was born. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

My parents were separated before I was born and I've mostly lived with my dad. My mother isn't a very stable person, she has drinking problems, smokes a lot, and has a hard time holding a job. She was in abusive romantic relationships and would bring them around when I would visit her house. As I got older, I remember visiting her and her getting super drunk at 1 am and then having me in a car as she flew through intersections. I felt horrible about her drinking problem and I wanted to help her, but she is very manipulative and makes me feel bad when I can't be with her and no longer living with her. My dad isn't helpful mentally, however, and they both make me feel trapped.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

It made me feel like I had to choose a parent I liked better and they constantly would talk bad about the other parent. It was a lot for me to listen to and deal with as I got older.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

It has not impacted me well and I feel anxious and depressed. I want to leave my family more to be able to breathe and figure out my family for myself without the opinions of others. I don't think I have a good relationship with my parents now.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

It doesn't define you and you can still have a relationship with both of your parents. You should never feel like you are the problem or the divider because it's not your fault. If your parents don't get along well, don't let one parent's opinions and statements dictate how you feel about the other parent. If it's a toxic household, try to find time to breathe.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

I think there needs to be therapy for this specific area so that kids are understood. Support sources are also super helpful and check-ins can help someone get through a divorce or separation

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

It Affects Everything…

2 minute read.

This story was written by Steven Thomas at 61 years old. His parents divorced when he was 15. He gave permission for his story to be shared.

HIS STORY

It goes back many generations. If we just focus on my grandparents, the dysfunction is already present. My father's father left the family when he was just a young kid. There is some speculation around if he left, or was kicked out by my grandma, who I am told had her personal issues...I will call them "twisted," for the sake of discussion and to not cause scandal. On my mom's side, her father was a sexual abuser, so they had to move her away from the family at an early age. So both parents had a very fragile foundation. My father, who has passed away was an alcoholic; as well as unfaithfulness in his marriage. My mother did the best she could to try to make things work until everything came to a head. My father was always working and never went to any games, so there was never the sense of support a kid would want or expect. They were very dark times growing up.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HIM FEEL

I always say, when a kid goes through a divorce, there is a fracture or fissure in the center of one's soul, and it never really heals. There was a real sense of aloneness, low self-esteem, and feeling very much abandoned and insecure.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HIM

It affects everything...my marriage, my ability to be a good father, my whole sense of what it means to be a man. It is a slow grind to find healing and to fight to become the person God has meant me to become. The sense of my personal identity was something that took many years to truly begin to discover and understand.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

Turn to God who is the perfect Father, turn to His Son who is the perfect brother, turn to the Mother of God who is the perfect Mother! Take the darkness that always enters in and give it to Jesus on the cross. Offer it for the redemption of many souls. I remember the turning point in my life was reading about the story of Fatima, and how these young little children offered all of the sufferings for souls, who they were given a vision of, who were falling into hell. All of us victims of divorce, the massive wounded army that we are can make a difference. We can transform our suffering into a prayer. And forgiveness really is the most powerful thing we will ever do.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

Take them out of their isolation, so they know they are not alone.

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

You Have Experienced Both a Significant Trauma and a Genuine Injustice

2 minute read.

This story was written by Lincoln Brown at 28 years old. His parents divorced when he was 11. He gave permission for his story to be shared.

HIS STORY

Simply put, my mother picked my brother and I up from school one day and took us to a new house, just near my childhood home/father’s house. My father didn’t know this was going to happen, or where my mother was moving to. They had always had a turbulent relationship, but this was a dramatic escalation that I did not anticipate. I was stunned but I helped my mother unpack boxes, which I suppose was because I thought that if I was helpful and maybe I could potentially calm her down and improve the situation. I remember asking my mother whether we would be back home by Christmas and she said that she didn’t know, which is when I started crying. The next day, my father found me as school was ending and made me take him to my mother, which of course ruined her plans of keeping her whereabouts secret, and they had a big fight. That describes the event of the separation itself.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HIM FEEL

I was unable to trust my parents after this happened. I felt a great sense of loss and grief, and I was confused about whether it had been my fault, and whether they would get back together.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HIM

I became a very angry teenager. I felt unable to share my true emotions with family members. I felt ashamed of my desire for an intact family and told myself to toughen up and get over it for many years.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

Give yourself permission to be honest about how you feel. You have experienced both a significant trauma and a genuine injustice.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

I think that spaces where divorce is acknowledged as a trauma and where children of divorce can share their stories, find good role models, and support one another would be transformative.

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

I'm Still Trying to Grow Up and Give My Kids What I Didn't Have

5 minute read.

This story was written by Angela Miller at 29 years old. Her parents divorced when she was 11. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

It is an extremely long story, and I'm still living it, so I'll try to be as detailed for a summary as I can be. Everything was perfect. Husband, wife, 4 kids. They finally bought a house for their family in 2002 and moved into it in January 2003- I remember when they bought the house. A year later my dad’s parents moved in and everything just started getting more hostile between my parents. When I was in 5th grade they separated. They went to a marriage counselor and after that night, two weeks later my mom left. She left my dad in the middle of the day during June, I was in school when I got a call to come down to the principal’s office, and they made us go with her, so she uprooted our lives and made us go to her parent’s house. My mom claims it was only an "overnight bag that was packed" but had clothes for us packed for almost a week. My dad called about 7 pm that night to my grandparent’s house (my mom’s parents) and he promised, which has since been broken, that he would "never drink or never do drugs". My mom has since tried making the claims that he left her and recants it then says, “Well he kicked her out,” which also didn't exactly happen the way she said it did. She started seeing a woman the same summer that she moved us. August that summer we were moved into this woman's house. So mom came out as a "bi-sexual." My dad didn’t visit us for months into the separation. In 2007 my dad threatened to kill my mom, so she got a restraining order against him for a year. After that year was over, he was court-mandated to see us every Saturday for 5 weeks, 5 hours each time which he did. He even called my mom and asked for a longer Saturday on the last visit. She claims now that he cut it short but that's false. After that, it was 3 years until we saw him again. I was 13 when this happened. I was then 16 when I saw him again. My older twin sisters were 18 and my younger sister was 14. My younger sister and I went to my dad's every other weekend until he did drugs in front of us and my dad also tried getting me at 16 years old to date his 25 year old drug dealer. I came back and told my mom and she just laughed at me. After that, he looked me in the face on his couch and told me that my younger sister and I could not come around anymore because he and his drug dealer had to smoke pot. My older sisters were out of my mom's house. One sister was in college and the other was living with her boyfriend from a teen pregnancy. I also at 19 got pregnant (long story). My other sister has been the only one of us to graduate college. I was in culinary school but my younger sister got into drugs and started selling on school premises so my mom asked me to come home because she couldn't raise my younger sister alone. I got super depressed and failed out. I came back, enrolled in college closer to home and I would get phone calls almost daily that my younger sister left school and I needed to go get her and bring her home. I was neglecting my adult education because my mom couldn't do it so instead of raising her child I had my own. There's so much and I could go on but basically, I'm married now almost 8 years and have 6 beautiful children and even became a Catholic convert! I have attempted suicide that I never told anyone about except my husband, I still deal with pain and anger but I'm trying.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

It was a rollercoaster. I still cry. My family was my family. They were the "inseparable couple." They had a huge church community, I had a great school and friends and my mom ripped all of it away from us so she could be a lesbian. It was "her life" and we need to stay out of her way. We were an inconvenience and "outside influences" that made her relationship with this female hostile. I felt like if it wasn't for me telling my dad I would live with Mom this wouldn't have happened. I hold a lot of responsibility still.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

It absolutely impacts me as an adult. My dad is still not around and my mom still tries to tell me my dad hates me and never wanted me. It's a lot and I wish we could talk! But yes, as an adult I'm still trying to grow up and give my kids what I didn't have. I don't trust people. I have the hardest time trusting my husband because I'm so scared he's going to leave.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

Ignore the spiteful things that your parents say to you. They hurt you because they can't hurt each other. Suicide is not the answer, you can write your own story and rely on God because without him I would have crumbled.

It is not your fault.

It is not your fault.

It is not your fault.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

They need someone to talk to. I had no one. I was very alone and in a dark place. People need to realize the signs of depression because it can be so bad that the person will kill themselves and "oh my how." If they're young enough, a judge needs to talk to the teen about home life without the parents present. Living with my mom was so bad and she thinks she was great. Living with my dad would have been just as bad but my grandma- mom's mom asked her if I could live with her. Something needs to be done about parents’ power trips as well.

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#118: Resolving Conflict is a Skill | Cody & Katherine

If you’re like me, you never saw conflict resolved peacefully in your family. As a result, you might feel a bit lost about how to resolve conflict in your life, especially in your relationships. 

If that’s you, this episode will help. In it, a married couple joins to share tips they’ve learned on resolving conflict, plus:

• Why it’s important to let small things go, but how letting too much go can lead to resentment

• The four levels of learning any skill

• Advice to someone from an intact family who’s dating, engaged, or even married to someone from a broken family

Get FREE Guide: 7 Tips to Build Healthy Relationships & a Divorce-Proof Marriage

Visit Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Watch Cody's previous episode: Episode 111

• Read "Hold me Tight" by Sue Johnson

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're like me, you probably never saw conflict handled very well in your family. And as a result, you might feel kind of unequipped and even lost when it comes to dealing with conflict in your own life, especially in your intimate relationships. And if that describes you, this episode is going to help you.

I'm joined by a married couple that shares some tips that they've learned and used. That helped them navigate conflict. Plus how not to let fear hold you back in relationships. We talk about the unspoken belief that so many of us from broken families believe that conflict leads to permanent separation.

A term that was coined by my friend, Layla Miller. We also hit on why it's so important within marriage to let the small things go. But if you let everything go, that will actually just lead to resentment towards your spouse. We Touch on the four levels or steps to learn any skill, including the skill of conflict resolution.

And finally, they share some advice to someone from an intact family who's maybe dating engaged or married to someone who comes from a broken family. Stay with us.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 100. Eighteen. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard so much great feedback. One listener said this. I recommended your podcast to a friend. A week later, she came back and said, this is my new favorite podcast. Thanks for the work you do. Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness.

If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you. This is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world and in a safe and approachable environment. But what makes Dakota different than the numerous. Fitness and health coaches out there. Three things. One, he's done it himself.

He's a very healthy, ripped dude. He's also a good, virtuous man who doesn't just care about his body, but the rest of his life as well, uh, to, he studied to become for a priest, actually for a little while. And through that experience in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest of The rest, like your body, we need to care for it all.

And so we can become more virtuous and free to love. And number three is the code of mission is all about leading people to the experience, the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way they were made to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you want to transform your body and even your life.

Dakota can help one client said this about Dakota, Dakota lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, Look no further, Dakota Lane is your man.

And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have achieved, just go to Dakota lane, fitness. com, Dakota lane, fitness. com. You can even Google that or just click on the link in the show notes. My guests today are Cody and Catherine. Cody, as you'll hear in the conversation, experienced the divorce of his parents at age 14 in college.

He had a reversion to his Catholic faith where he found the support to untangle the pain he experienced. Cody is a joyful newlywed and expectant father. He works as an engineer and he's a self proclaimed armchair, armchair, a philosopher and theologian. Catherine, his wife, uh, is a mother and a missionary as well as a wife.

And after graduating from the University of Missouri with a degree in journalism, she spent three years working in campus ministry, uh, with Focus, the fellowship of Catholic University students, uh, during which she met her husband, Cody. Uh, she continues to work with Focus as a marketing specialist. In her free time, she reads good books with friends, backpacks around Michigan's upper peninsula and dreams up more effective ways to run her household.

Cody were married in July 2023 and are expecting their first child in April 2024, and they have a passion for just self aware communication, playfulness, and intellectual formation, believing that the theology of our bodies reveals much more about how to know and love one another. Now in this conversation, we do talk a bit about God and faith.

If you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. Anyone who knows this podcast knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is just this, listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode.

And with that, here's our chat. Cody and Catherine, welcome to the show. Good to be here, Joe. Yeah, I'm excited. No, I'm a big fan of you both. And, um, uh, yeah, excited to learn more about your story. I know I've, I've learned a bit here there about it, but yeah, how did you guys meet? Let's just start with a kind of softball question.

Where'd you meet? So I, I worked for a Catholic, uh, campus ministry organization and got sent as part of that organization up to Michigan tech where Cody was a student. Uh, so I was a missionary, uh, serving in that capacity And so I didn't know Cody. Um, I knew his best friend was one of the people who served on my team with me.

I was also on Dating Fast when we first met as part of my service as a missionary. So I think that made me feel very free to hang out with him and see him as a brother figure. No, I like it. Okay. So you guys kind of hit it off that way. I met through other people and uh, kind of built your friendship though.

I'm curious, like, did you guys have this long period of friendship or were you pretty soon interested in each other and wanting to take things to the dating level? I didn't really get to know Catherine very well until probably January, uh, of that like whole academic year. So I was pretty much right or off.

And then it was, uh, She's kind of cute, but unavailable. It's a shame. I'm going to go ask out somebody else. And so I did. So I went on a couple of dates with her and wasn't terribly interested in that. And by then the semester had ended and, uh, Catherine was at the end of her first year on mission, so she was then able to go on dates and, uh, that's right.

One of my friends who was a groomsman later at our wedding pulled me aside. It's like, Hey man, you're going to ask Catherine out? And I said, no, I'm not terribly interested in that. Like, well, you should, she's great. And I know you've said that you would take her out if you could. And then on my end, I had been really interested in discerning religious life.

So looking at other options besides marriage, um, while I was on the dating fast, but I knew that. There were a lot of really awesome men in my life. At that point, I had fellow missionary and teammates, a lot of the male students. I had just built a great friendship with them throughout that first year, um, that I was at Michigan tech.

And so I had told my manager. That, you know, all of the men at Tech, they're really great. If one of them asked me on a date, I would say yes, even Cody Eby. Because I thought he was, he was like the weirdest of all of the weird ones. There is kind of this spectrum of, you know, we've got like the hunters and the outdoorsmen, and then we've got the nerds, because they're most of, The students at Tech are engineers, but I definitely put Cody on the weirder than I would normally date, but I would be open.

Um, and so as the story goes, two hours after the official end of the dating fast, which was marked by a piñata, uh, Cody asked me on a date. Um, yeah, and then we dated for eight months. We were engaged for 16, um, and I've been married now for eight months. Beautiful. Okay. Thanks for sharing. And that makes sense.

Like, yeah, about the dating fast. So anyone who's not familiar, it's just a period of time where you choose not to date because you're, you know, in Catherine's situation, she was a missionary serving college students. So, um, just something that organization has their missionaries do. Well, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, what are your families like?

Like, what are your family's backgrounds? Now, obviously Cody, you've come on the show. We'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. But, um, if you would give us a little bit of a recap and then Catherine as well, I'd love to hear a bit about your family. Yeah. So my parents divorced when I was about.

Um, it was a fairly troubled marriage and then post split, it was just me bouncing between households. Um, and then primarily staying with my mother. So there was a lot of, uh, dysfunction. Yeah. And then I come, um, from an intact family. Um, my parents have been married for 30 years and I have three children.

Three brothers, one older and two younger, and grew up in suburban Minnesota. Um, and just had a very different experience, um, from Cody had a very close knit family and we did a lot of family vacations and family dinners together. Uh, and that was definitely a lens that I brought into the relationship that I think affected my ability just to understand family dynamics that were different from what I had.

So it's not also that you had siblings and I didn't. That is true, but I had all boy siblings. It definitely can give you some advantages for sure. It definitely is helpful. I should say, um, no, thank you guys for going into that and explaining. And that is so interesting. The dynamic between an intact family and a, you know, a broken family.

I want to go into that a bit deeper in a little bit. But I am curious, like through this whole like dating phase for you guys, were there certain qualities and virtues that you were looking for in another person? Or was it more that there was just a personal attraction between like the two of you that you began to explore?

Like you didn't have this whole checklist and you're like, yep, Cody checks this and Catherine checks this. Just curious what that was like for you. What were you looking for in each other? Maybe Catherine first. Yeah, absolutely. That's, it's so funny because I think. At one point in my life, I, for sure, had a checklist of all the things that I was looking for in a future husband.

I think at the point that Cody and I started dating, I hadn't even been thinking about that for, for quite a while. Didn't date really at all in college and just, Yeah, I felt very free to give myself in friendship. Um, and so walking into dating, I, I didn't even really know what I wanted or what I expected.

Um, which I think led both to putting pressure on Cody that didn't necessarily need to be there because I was trying to hold him to this ideal. Even though, um, yeah, I hadn't set down expectations and that was something a mentor. had encouraged me while dating to do is actually sit down and ask yourself for me to ask myself, is he actually like checking the boxes you think you have in your head or are your ideals unrealistic?

And that was also something, um, that, uh, a close priest had said to me as well, uh, is just a really, Really know my own heart and my own mind when it came to that. It's interesting because I remember on our second date there was this whole moment near the end of the date where I just I was going in at that point.

I had decided like oh, this has been fun, but I don't want to go on more dates Uh and started explaining all of that to cody. He just started to stop me and be like What, so what are you actually saying? Um, and I realized in all of that crazy rambling that I was going through, that the thing that I was actually wrestling with is just being afraid of, of something new of a dating relationship and dating at a time when, um, I was stepping into a new leadership role on campus and just a lot of things were changing in my life.

Um, yeah. And just his advice, um, to step into that place of fear. Uh, to do it scared and just really enter into all the uncertainty. That was a huge help in, even later in the process of me sorting through kind of what, what were some of those, those boxes I was looking for. That was the moment I went back to in all the times when I thought, Oh, Cody doesn't check this box.

Um, Oh, specifically in the area of faith, right? I was a missionary who was praying every single day, very involved in evangelizing. Um, and Cody's life as a college student looked very different. His, his personal devotion to God looked very different than mine was. And I think I was looking for someone with the exact, the exact flavor of, uh, faith life that I had.

Um, but in realizing that deeper than any of those faith aspects was actually just realizing that I felt very safe with him. I felt safe to be vulnerable, um, and that wasn't Something that I've had much in my life, just because of my own, my own personal woundedness, um, it involves a lot of fear and fear of, um, people pleasing and just wanting to be perfect for everyone.

And so this fact that even if the things I thought I wanted were Like, this perfect Christian man wasn't there. What I actually needed was someone who, who listened to me, who accepted me, who was willing to work through the hard things. And that was feedback we got from friends during that time, is that we had great interpersonal communication.

Um, actually, the, the person during our marriage prep frequently said, Do you, do you guys ever have conflict? Cause you've clearly figured out how to resolve it very quickly. Uh, I think another person was so concerned that we were so good at the, the, the conflict resolution language. Like, do you have normal conversations?

Like you talk to each other. Like friends, right? Like very concerned that we're too good at voicing opinions. We were apparently like a plus stars of I statements. And yeah, it was good. Yeah. Talk us through a little bit of that. Cause I know this conflict is such a difficult thing for typically for people who come from broken families, especially once you get an intimate relationship, you get married, like it can be a really difficult waters because for so many of us, as you both know.

We didn't see that modeled well, but I'm a big believer that you can learn how to navigate that. And it sounds like you did, Cody, and Catherine, you as well. So I'm just curious, like, what is your mode of operating when it comes to conflict? And maybe what advice would you give to someone who's like, I don't really know what I'm doing?

Yeah, I think for me coming from a very classic passive aggressive midwestern family, we just, we didn't, we had a lot of deep discussions growing up, but not a lot of diving into the conflict or saying the things that were really important or were hurtful to us. Um, and I think the thing that really helped me most was in some of those marriage preparation classes.

They just gave us a language that we could use, um, using I statements, um, and explaining how we felt. Uh, Or I think we, we read a book called Hold Me Tight, which is just a, a psychology book about, um, intimate relationships and some of that language of just learning how to, um, to speak about kind of our, our interior, our feelings, um, the things that we're expressing.

That was really huge for me. I love having a framework. I will read Like psychology books until the cows come home. Um, but being able to know that I had someone who was trained the same way that I was to just be able to say, okay, we're going to stop, um, being able to even now call each other out and say, Like, Oh, it sounds like the way that you're speaking to me.

It sounds like something is going deeper. Can we stop? Can we take a moment to just enter into that space and really talk about what we're feeling? Um, and honestly, learning a list of emotion words, uh, like brainstorming, not just happy, sad, angry, but what are maybe some of those more? Like I'm feeling afraid in this particular way, or I'm feeling discouraged.

Um, Yeah, that was really helpful in just me having to stop and identify what I was feeling and I'm, I'm a very slow processor by personality. So sometimes it would take us, our friends joke that sometimes it would take us hours to go and have one conversation because we just needed all that time to process, which is totally okay.

If you're a fast processor, great. Um, sometimes that makes it easier, but if you're slow or need to step away for a moment, take a five minute breather, figure out what you're feeling and then come back to the conversation. Um, that all of those things were very helpful.

I'm married to Treebeard, who believes that, uh, things aren't worth, uh, saying, unless you're willing to take a long time to say it. Which is funny, because the one thing that we did during that year of friendship was watch Lord of the Rings together. So, gladly, we lived that. Um, no, right? It's like, just, just coming from like my own experience, like conflict, uh, in a relationship being something that's like really, you know, It creates a lot of fear in previous relationships, getting to experience that and like the instability of dating.

Right. I think that's like one of the worst things about it for someone who's grown up from a divorce household. Right. Is right. There's all this courage that it takes simply to ask a woman on a date, right? You risk all this rejection, which, uh, for asking Catherine out, I'm thinking I have no chance at this.

There is. No way. She's going to say yes, but it's like the end of the semester and she might even transfer after the year. So as long as I just shoot my shot, I'll know that it's over and I can go hang out with my friends before we all leave town for the summer. And, uh, yeah, it turned out she said yes, which was, uh, Great.

And I'll be at surprising. And then she's like, well, I'd like to go out on a date with you again before you leave. Shall we go out again? Wow. So that went really well. Right. Like, yeah, there's a brave face to, uh, rejection, which is, uh, yeah, it's real. Projection hurts a lot, but then even once like there is, uh, a yes.

And then even a committed to like, let's exclusively date. Like, Boyfriend girlfriend kind of thing. It's still not like a stable relationship, right? Like you're exclusive, but there's ultimately like a freedom of like, ah, you can voluntarily choose to exit this relationship at any time. And that's terrible, right?

As, as somebody who's experienced divorce for like, ah, your parents just. opted to voluntarily separate the relationship at any time. And we're like going through breakups before my relationship with Catherine was, uh, difficult. Even like housemates, like moving out, like, ah, we've lived together for a year and now you've graduated and you're going off to like your new life, your new job.

Everything's great. Like, oh boy, what I just. Sit and cry over like my non romantic friend because it's just hard to deal with like we've grown in friendship now There's a separation that we just bring all these memories of difficulty and separation about that So right, so there's all that going on and to say what what that has to do with conflict is Anytime that like conflict is broached, you're thinking, Oh, is this the end?

Is this it? Has it, has it come to the final hour of hair? This is the impossible conflict that things cannot get solved and we're going to break up and there's nothing we can do about it. And it's just the divorce process all over again. Mom and dad can't get along. And you're to me, it just felt like my brain was just.

Set in stone that like, ah, there is another argument and it is the end and it is definitively the end and Right. I have to take time to think like, okay, we're gonna be okay. It doesn't have to be as doom and gloom as I think it's going to be and I can relax and I say this and I'm trying to be as true to myself as possible, but it's actually hard to remember.

I've been married for eight months and I've kind of like They're able to kind of flush these things down the toilet for the, for the most part, because I think about it all that often, and it's great. It's a good thing. Yeah, and it still takes a lot. The entering into conflict takes courage, and that, that isn't easy.

Um, and so I, I think. That's been something for both of us that's just been really huge is whether we chose to or not We grew in that ability to just to enter in and to face the fear So good now, I love that and now I think this is such an important topic because could it like you said well A dating breakup can feel like a divorce to people like us.

And we need to learn how to get through that obviously and see that it's actually not the same thing, but it can feel like it. And that's a really difficult thing when you're going through it. Um, so I think, yeah, seeing what conflict can look like in a healthy way is really beautiful. So I do want to stay here a little bit more if it's okay with you guys.

I, yeah, I'm curious, like the, Balance that you guys hit or you maybe you've seen in other marriages between directness and tactfulness. Cause I think sometimes those can be a little bit at odds where like you can be very direct and just kind of say what's on your mind and say what you're feeling. And in some relationships that's great.

Like that will work well. And other relationships like, no, no, no, you need to be a bit more tactful. You need to figure out the right way to say it. So just curious the balance between The, those two, not necessarily extremes, but those two kind of modes of communicating for you guys and what you've seen and maybe what advice you would offer to someone who's navigating that too.

Well, I'm definitely very confrontational. It's not necessarily like you can be confrontational and still be kind, right? So like, what does that mean? Is you, you address the thing that bothers you. And to the way that I do it, and it's not necessarily a guarantee. This is going to be like the thing that works well for you, uh, or that it's going to be received well by your spouse or boy girlfriend.

But again, like the, the EFT, the emotionally focused therapy, when you just speak about the way that you feel or that you receive something, right. That's primarily why you're hurt. You've received something, uh, whether it was meant to be received in that way or not. Received something. So here's the way that like, when you told me to do this task in this way, I felt belittled and explain if it was, um, a choice of language or the way it was spoken and, and, and confronting Catherine with that.

And. Giving her the, the chance to kind of answer for herself, not necessarily in like, um, police interrogation. Where were you and why did you do it? But just giving voice to like the, I feel hurt because of this. And then allowing Catherine to kind of play off that. How would you play off? Yeah. And emotionally focused therapy is the, what that book Hold Me Tight by Dr.

Sue Johnson is all about. You should get a sponsorship, Joanne. We're going to plug that one. Well, we might put some other things. There's, there's a lot that's going on. That's been helpful for us. Um, yeah, I think, um, remind me to come back to the point that you were making about playing off the, the confrontation, the thought that I was originally thinking is I tend to be very emotionally attuned.

Again, sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes that comes from reading a room and trying to make sure that I'm pleasing the people around me. Um, but there were many, many times when we were dating or engaged that I could tell Cody was shutting down. Uh, and I just wanted to keep digging, like, tell me what's wrong.

Explain to me why you're feeling like this. Usually out of a. I just realized that I didn't think about it enough. place of my own fear or insecurity that I needed to correct my behavior so that he would continue to care about me.

his particular mode of operating, um, that he does. Sometimes he just needs five minutes, um, to walk away and to examine his own, his own heart and his own thoughts and figure out what exactly he needs to communicate to me. So yeah, that, that was a big part of just learning that balance between directness and tact is that I didn't, I didn't need to keep asking why things were wrong.

I could trust, um, and I think that's part of it. It was growing in the trust that he would come to me and tell me what was wrong in that. the confrontational style. The direct style. It's not really confrontation. You tell me how you feel and why you feel hurt. Um, I think in responding to that, just the directness, the power of I'm sorry, and I forgive you.

That is something our society, um, Yeah, whether you come from a Christian background or a secular background or anything, how often do people say, I'm sorry? And I, I grew up in the Midwest where you, you say, I'm sorry when you like, you've been there. Yeah. Let me sneak right past you there. Like have actually said that to people as I'm walking through crowds, um, and feeling bad about, you know, they're actually in the way and this is not a me problem, but the power of just Right, whether or not I think I've wronged Cody, um, if he's expressing to me that he's hurt in some way, I need to apologize for that wrong and allow him to say the words, I forgive you.

Again, oftentimes our response to I'm sorry is like, oh, it's okay. No, it's not okay. There has been pain that has been caused and it goes both ways. Um, I, he also hurts me in addition to me hurting him. Um, but yeah, I think just like. Focusing in on that, coming back to a place of connection, that if he expresses, You said this thing in this way, and it hurt me, and this is what I'm experiencing.

Apologizing, returning to a place of connection, and then having a productive conversation of like, Oh, okay, so next time, what do we need to do differently? Was this just a, It's late, and I'm tired, and I'm sorry, and we can just move on? Or is there a pattern here that needs to be, So I can bring an attempt to all of those things.

Good stuff. No, I appreciate you guys going through that. There's so many lessons I just learned from you. Uh, one reminds me of something Layla Miller, the author who's written a lot about, you know, children of divorce and things like that. She said that she identified that people like us from broken families tend to think that conflict leads to permanent separation.

And so the, Logical, I guess, response to that would be to avoid at all costs. And, so, it's really helpful to hear that, no, not only can you actually navigate conflict in a healthy way, which is the goal, for everyone listening, the goal is not to avoid conflict. Usually that's a bad sign in a relationship.

It either means you're saints, or, you know, there's some other big problems underneath the surface that you need to address. Um, but really to make conflict healthy, that's the goal. And so even knowing that like can be mind blowing for people, I guess it's like, wow, conflict can be healthy. Like I never really saw what that looked like that.

That's one lesson. I think the other one too, is that you can get through it and love each other more. Even because of it, I would say, uh, which is kind of wild concept again, like, you know, being married for a bit, you kind of learn these things through trial and error often. Um, but, but yeah, I think for someone, especially who's, who's not at that point yet, it's, this might be pretty mind blowing for them.

So really good stuff. Another thing I wanted to touch on that you guys said was just the importance of trust and all of this. Like if you don't trust someone. It makes conflict really, really challenging. Uh, but if you do, I remember what, uh, the business author Pat Lungione said about trust. He said that, um, trust makes conflict the pursuit of truth.

Trust makes conflict the pursuit of truth, which I found so true. Instead of a battle of egos who are just trying to kind of get the upper hand and win the argument, you're truly debating like what is the best solution and the best course of action. For us as a team, as a couple, as a family, as a marriage.

Um, and so just a few lessons there that I love that you guys went through. Yeah. And I think Joey, you hit on just. That idea that, especially in marriage, it's, it's a little bit different dating and engaged because those are still times when you figure out, is this a person that I want to spend my life with?

But definitely in marriage, it's not about, it's never us versus each other. It's always about, um, I don't know, like, like the marriage itself is this third person and that needs to be preserved above any ego that either Khalid or I have. Um, yeah. And, and maybe defining that as like the love that we have as a married couple needs to be preserved at all costs.

Um, because that, that's more important than what he thinks or I think in any given moment is the fact that we have chosen to commit to each other. I love that. And I remember some, uh, Jordan Peterson said, Cody, you probably remember this of just how, um, when you try to beat your spouse. And if you win, that kind of makes your spouse a loser.

And then it means you're married to a loser. And so it's like, like, you're not really winning in the end. If you like are succeeding at putting your spouse down, which can be difficult to remember in the midst of a conflict, because we get so emotional. I remember our marriage therapist. Um, telling us that when you're angry, when you're emotional, your IQ drops apparently by like 30 points.

And so for those of us with like average IQs, it puts us in the 70 range, which makes us basically like in the range of mental disability. So we're trying to resolve something when we're all like pent up and emotional, especially angry. You're not going to get anywhere with it. And so there's definitely some good tactics that we've learned.

Like one of them, since we're on the conflict topic was calling a time out. And this isn't like a perfect tactic, but we've found it helpful. And for those of you who've never heard of this, basically what you do is prior to any sort of conflict, you just. Agree upon a timeout period, like could be anywhere from 30 minutes to 24 hours.

And then in the midst of a conflict, when things get heated, when you can just say, I need a timeout. And then, you know, the person who calls the timeout would, you know, keep track of the time and then they would resume the conversation as well. And so that's just one little tactic too. But one thing I wanted to mention too, and I'd love to hear any other thoughts you guys have on conflict since we're here.

And I think people find this so valuable is that it's important to remember, like, it's a skill. For some reason, I at least never really thought of it as a skill. I kind of thought of it as like some natural, um, trying to find the right words, like something that's like naturally baked into your character, right?

A natural ability. Maybe, I don't know if that's the right word even, but, um, but basically something you're kind of like born with that you can't really learn. And so knowing that it's a skill, like something you can learn, you can get better at it. Um, I think it is really, really helpful. And on that note, the remembering that there's like different levels of competence.

Um, and the, there's the way I've heard it talked about is there's four levels of competence. There's unconscious competence or unconscious incompetence. I'm sorry. It's the first level. That's like the lowest level. That means like you're not really good at something. You don't really know how bad you are because you don't know what good looks like.

That's unconscious competence. One level up would be. Unconscious incompetence. Sorry. One level up would be, uh, conscious incompetence where like you have a frame of reference now, some sort of anchor, some sort of benchmark. You're like, okay, like I understand that I'm not really good at this, but I'm working to be better at this.

And then when you go one level up, you have, um, Uh, conscious competence, where you've actually gotten good at something, but you have to really focus to be good at it. You have to keep practicing. You have to really like hone that skill. Um, and then from there, you have, uh, unconscious competence, where you don't actually really need to think about it much more, because you've practiced it so much.

That you've gotten to this level, kind of like you mentioned before Cody, where you don't need to think about it. It's just natural. It's kind of baked into your character at that point. Like the virtue has been integrated into who you are. So I found that helpful really with any skill in life, but we can, I guess, apply it to this conflict, uh, skill as well.

No, I mean, I think it's really great way to put it. So the listener doesn't feel discouraged. Right. Um, How do I get from being, like, dating to married and having all this, uh, ability to resolve things and speak clearly to the person that I love? And, uh, I think not just thinking about it as a skill, but thinking about it as, like, another language.

Uh, because first and foremost, like, you can, uh, You can spend all the time you want studying it, but until someone else knows it to speak it with you, you're only playing with, you know, you're missing the other half, right? If the person you're trying to relate to an emulant who doesn't understand the way that you're trying to resolve the conflict or doesn't relate to it.

Have that template either right progress can be made but it's it's slower. It's harder Uh, you're speaking one language and they're trying to point to things and and then dragging around on their end, right? So I think uh, right choosing to read a book together and then we went to marriage counseling before we were married to Kind of help us get through some other Reconcile of both of us having other interior problems that were preventing us from being able to communicate clearly.

Yeah. That's so unique. Go ahead, Joey. And I want to go back into that in a second, but Kathryn, you first, but I love that you guys Even before, you know, you were married. That's so good. But yeah, I think to your point about growing in the competency, um, it was definitely something that we had to grow and we had to learn the same language, but it was also, uh, you're right.

A skill that can be practiced and. If you're not in, in a relationship of some kind, practicing it with roommates or friends, and it can be very small, um, and I think going into those episodes, uh, with, with the benefit of the doubt or assuming that when your roommate doesn't do their dishes, it's not because They were trying to be mean to you and they just really wanted to leave you with a sink full of dirty dishes.

It was maybe they had their own things going on and being able to approach that and say like, Hey roommate, I just noticed that you left your dishes in the sink last night. Just want to check in and make sure everything's okay. Um, make sure you weren't overwhelmed by life. Uh, and just like wanted to, to invite you to do them when you have time or like, if something was going on to do them for them and coming to that place of understanding.

Cause most times When people, uh, yeah, are called out in gentleness, they will respond well. Um, and I, I, I learned that and actually got to practice it a lot, living with three other women. Um, yeah, during my time as a missionary. And so just finding ways in life to practice that skill, whether that's in a dating relationship.

Or just with other people in your life, um, who you have. I, I think it's funny that you, you brought up the thing, um, where there's the saying that you shouldn't, you shouldn't attribute to malice what could be attributed to, uh, incompetence, right? And like, most of the time, people aren't trying to, To really do anything to you, uh, it's, it's a lot of times just out of someone else's own ignorance, right?

Even if they knew something went wrong, they weren't thinking about how it would affect you. Uh, they were too self obsessed. I think one example that just comes to mind recently is we're cleaning out a spare room that we've been using to store all the stuff that we couldn't find a nice new place for in the house.

And, um, this room is like a renovated garage on the side of the house. And we get mice out there. And so as I'm clinging to this box, it's just like full of mouse poop and chewed up stuff. And, uh, so I emptied the box out and I set it aside. Uh, I told my wife, oh, this box is full of mouse poop and stuff. So I'm going to throw out a lot of the.

Uh, fabrics and things that were in there because they're basically ruined now and they all smell and I don't want to wash them. Um, so I put the empty box into the side of the room. And a couple of hours later Kath was like, Ah, there are some loose things in the other room on the other side of the house and they need a box.

And so she goes off to the spare room, grabs the empty box that had all the mouse poop in it, right? Picks it up, takes it to their aunt's house, and puts all, um, I think it was stuff for the baby that's on the way, right? So it's putting all these gifts inside, and I'm like, Catherine, did you just put all of our nice new baby stuff into, like, the rat poop box?

And I got super mad, because I'm like, why would you do that, right? Like, that could have, like, diseases that could be, like, really bad for the baby, and it's just disgusting and gross, and I don't like dealing with all that, because I'm a, I'm not really a germaphobe, but, um Sometimes a little bit. Yeah, it just makes me angry to be sick.

Not that I'm afraid of it. So, whatever the Greek is for germ hater, uh, rather than germ fearful. So, I just get really mad, and it just dawns on me, like, actually, I think if Catherine knew that that was the box, and was in full awareness of that, she wouldn't have chosen to do that. Yeah. So I don't have to be mad at her like she intentionally picked up the poop box and put, you know, nice things inside of it because she just didn't know.

So all I can I should actually stop being mad at her. I should apologize for, for raising my voice like, why did you use this box? And, uh, just kind of move along, okay? Dude, I was mad. I had to go, I had to go, uh, like settle myself. Then I realized, like, I don't know, she just She didn't know what was happening, man.

My wife did not intentionally pick up a poopy box to slight me. Why would she do that? That benefits her in no way whatsoever either. Um, yeah. And perhaps that's something, um, like for someone who might be coming from, Either a broken family or just a family where there was a lot of manipulation, um, that maybe that's a pattern that they saw that there was intentionality behind it.

Um, but just to remember that for the most part, most people are not, trying to manipulate you or harm you in any way. Most people are choosing to live with a desire for your good. Um, especially people who have committed to love you in some way, whether that's friends or family or yeah, someone you're in a relationship with.

So just being attentive to that. No, I love that. Um, I'm curious, like that story, how did you guys resolve that? Or if you don't want to talk about that, any interesting, like recent situation where maybe there was some conflict and you guys were able to resolve it? Well, because I think as much as we're talking principles, it would be cool to kind of tie this together and see, okay, like, what does it look like actually to resolve, you know, a conflict.

So I'm just curious if you have a recent example of something where you maybe butted heads and there is a bit of conflict, but then you guys were able to resolve it. Well, what did that look like? Okay. I mean, with the boxing, of course, right, being the one I just thought of a moment ago, right, it was just like Ah, I realized that it wasn't intentional because why would that be?

Um, and then explaining my wife like I realized that this wasn't intentional because you are Silly enough to do something like that in hell like it was like, yes, I did not intend to do that like I'm so sorry for raising my voice at you and being upset with you. That was unnecessary. Will you please forgive me?

And we're very careful to use it like that. Will you forgive me? I forgive you language, right? Yeah. To roll it back further, you, you raised your voice and were like, and said something along the lines of, Did you use the, you weren't particularly PC about calling it the mouse poop box, but you did ask if I used that box.

And I was like, I didn't realize it was the box. I'll go change it out. And probably I, I did roll my eyes and wander back to the other room to grab a different box and then proceed to bend over and sort it probably being a little upset with you. Um, At, you know, like, this didn't seem like a big issue, but it clearly was, um, and then in that Cody taking, you know, a minute to reflect on his actions, realizing that it wasn't intentional, and therefore was in need of apology.

Um, and after that. Yeah, just like forgiving him and moving on because there are a lot of things, uh, I think that's one of the things I'm realizing about marriage is you could stay upset at your spouse pretty much every minute of every day because there's a lot that they do that's very annoying. Uh, and just realizing that if we choose to live in that place, we become bitter, upset, angry people.

And those aren't necessarily patterns that we want in our life. So choosing to move on. And I think the box has been thrown away. It probably should. Okay. Cool. No, I love that. And, and I think it's good to know that that's kind of a natural part of marriage. That's like, you know, kind of butting heads, rubbing up against each other the wrong way.

Maybe taking a little bit of a breather space, coming back together, resolving things like that. That's beautiful. That's what it can look like. And that's doable, right? As we were talking about, it's a skill, it's a virtue that you can acquire, you can practice, you can learn. You're going to mess up, you're going to go through those different levels of competence.

And then, if you work at it, in the end, you'll be good at it. And so, Yeah. I think this is really, really beautiful and helpful and encouraging, honestly, for, for so many people listening a couple, um, other tactics that come to mind too. I think it's so important within marriage to just learn to let the small things go.

Cause Catherine, like you just said, it's like there, you can nitpick anything and everything. And maybe depending on your personality, some people are so chilled. They like, don't really care. Other people are more, maybe, you know, nitpicky by nature. And so I think like, Remembering that, you know, you don't need to voice your opinion about everything.

That's at least my opinion. You can let the little things go. Like, talk about the important things, talk about what bothers you. And maybe this conflicts a little bit with what you guys learned, but this is just something that I learned from another psychologist. Um, and so for me, that's been really helpful, not just in marriage, but in other relationships too.

And the whole idea that, you know, you can't put out every fire if you do, you're going to be like exhausted. You're going to be like, not able to maintain any sort of like health and like peace in your life. And so the idea of like, sometimes you need to let small fires burn, let small fires burn. That's okay.

So I'm just curious if your opinion on it, if you'd want to disagree, feel free, not offended, um, But yeah, curious about that. And, uh, also curious if you guys like repeat back, uh, like in conflict, if you repeat back kind of what you hear the other person saying, and for that's a tactic too, in order to like, make sure you're really understanding what the, where they're going.

Yeah. Just to hit on what you said, Joey, I think part of it might be a personality thing. I totally agree. Letting the small things go. If we get upset about everything, yeah, we tend to be miserable people. I think also attentiveness, um, to who. We are as individuals. I know my particular pattern is I will let everything go, assume the benefit of the doubt and everything.

And then I never deal with conflict. And instead I'm stewing about the dirty dishes that my roommate has left. Um, yeah, then she's miserable for a while. I'm like, honey, what's wrong? And there's just this great big sigh. And. It's going to be like an hour of conversation that has to happen. Yeah. There was one time really recently that it was something, it was like a whole, I was, I was so upset with Cody for like a whole week or a couple of days.

And we like, it started, we started meeting to talk through it. Cause I was like, I'm just upset with you. I'm frustrated. I can't work. I can't work out what's wrong. Um, and then we sat down and again, I'm a slow processor. So it took me. You know, half an hour, an hour to communicate all of those things to him.

And by the time we got, and he listened to so well, you, you really are a great listener and to your point about using feedback where he'll respond and say, I'm hearing you say this, like, are we making sure, like, I'm still tracking with you? And by the time we got to the end of the discussion, I wasn't upset with him about anything.

It was that I needed to buy this particular baby product, and I just hadn't bought it yet, and that was causing me stress. And so he, the way to resolve that was actually, he made me take off my laptop and just like, hop on, The internet and buy what I needed and it was so funny because it's like I was so upset with him for like, I can't remember if it was days or something.

Yeah. There was this part of me that was like the whole, whole Sunday morning, like pre mass, go to church, come back from mass. And it's just like, why are you mad at me? Conversation goes on for at least an hour and a half and it's like, I need to shop. It's like, no, no, no, what's, what have I done? Like nothing.

You've done nothing. I just need to buy this thing. It's like, well, I'm not against you buying that. Like, have I told you that I don't want you to buy that? No, I just need to get it. The budget's tight. There you go.

So what have I done wrong? It's like nothing. So, anyway, being attentive to who I am, willing to take time to work through those things, right, and, and resolve conflict. Um, but realizing that I, by personality, will let things build up, and I found that that's very unhealthy. Um, so, listener, if, if that's you, where you tend to, um, Lump everything together and all of a sudden you're so frustrated at your spouse or your significant other or just a friend That you explode and then realize at the end of the day that it's actually nothing that they've done You've just let all the small things build up.

I encourage you to to take one small step, encourage, and just address whatever that small conflict is at the beginning. That the thing for me was probably he was driving over the speed limit or did something. I'm a backseat driver. So, so when Cody drives, uh, I clearly have control issues. And so if I had just addressed that right away, would we have gotten to a point?

Um, and, and it was good that we ended up. Getting to a point where I addressed the thing that I was actually stressed out about. Um, but had I addressed maybe moments along the way that could have been avoided good stuff. No, I appreciate you guys going through all that and I think that the what i'm learning from you is know yourself That's like the first principle, right?

Which I think is so important, like you said, Kevin, because yeah, if you are a person who lets like everything go, then you're going to just build up resentment. And resentment, what I've seen, can slowly just like poison your relationship. It's kind of like a, you know, an illness, like slowly silently eating away at your body.

And, and that's horrible. So yeah, that's not a good thing too. So I think there is that balance between knowing yourself and then, you know, being able to let small things go, but then also voicing something so it doesn't just build up and become this huge thing. Because yeah, I think so many marriages end up falling apart probably because, you know, they didn't communicate anything or the way in which they communicated didn't resolve anything.

So it was just this big thing under the surface that was just growing to become this mammoth of a, Problem. And then it's just like, well, where do we go from here? And it can, it can feel hopeless though. There is so much hope there. I've seen even horrible, rough marriages come back. Um, and so there is so much hope there, but guys, we've got to wrap up.

I just was curious to just quick questions for you, Cody. I remember you sharing the motto that Catherine, you alluded to earlier of like, just do it scared. I remember, I think you heard it on the podcast at some point. I'm just curious. Okay, well, I didn't come up with that. It was, it was, uh, Rory Vaden, just to set the record straight, is a business author who I learned that from, and so I'm glad I could pass that to you, but I can't take full credit from, but I'm so glad.

So I'm just curious, like, to someone listening right now who is paralyzed by fear, on that motto of do it scared, what would you say to them, especially if they're like holding back in relationships that are like, They could be really good and beautiful and healthy, but they're just afraid. Hell yeah, I don't really know what else to add beyond that, because it is so important to just face that fear, even though it is pretty paralyzing.

I've just experienced it kind of like, the lock up, the tenseness, right, just that, like anxiety enough to make you sweat. And just the willingness to go through with it and, uh, first and foremost, to see that it's like, really not all that bad. And your brain, right, is working very hard to protect you from the worst possible thing that could happen.

The good news is it's working way too hard. And it's probably not going to be that bad. And even if it is bad, right, you're going to feel so good after having just crossed that boundary. Because one, you can, you can look to yourself and say, Hey, look, I did it. Like it's capable. I can rise above the things that fear I feel.

And again, your brain is really good at trying to protect you from catastrophic things, which if you experience divorce or trauma in your life, Your brain is going to be very, very attuned to protecting you from terrible catastrophe. It just works way too hard. I would also say, from a scientific perspective, that is actually what your amygdala, your fear center, has been trained to do.

And right, that's a, if you encountered a black bear in the woods, your brain would tell you to run away. And that is a good fear response, and you want your brain to continue. Yeah. responding that way when we have a pattern either in our family of origins or in other situations, um, where our response to fear has always been to run away.

We've trained our brains to always run away. And the only way to untrain the brain is actually to go back in to acknowledge where we're feeling fear and then choose to take a step backwards. Um, there's a whole, um, Optimal Work is the business organization that's been doing a lot of taking this research on the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex and then applying it in a work setting.

Like, oh, if you get frustrated by a project or you don't want to have conflict with your manager or an employee or something, they're trying to take that science, um, and apply it, yeah, in a work setting. But it's, it's totally true in conflict, in marriage, in relationships. And I think to that point, my advice would just be learning to name the fear that saying out loud, whether you're a spiritual person and that's in prayer, or if it's just you standing in your room saying, I am afraid of, and working through that most of the time for us, for people, as they get to know themselves, it goes back to like, uh, I am afraid of being unloved or unchosen or unwanted or rejected or, or any of the lies that we can believe about ourselves.

And being able to name that fear is important first for us overcoming it. And then as you're in a relationship with someone, there have been numerous times where we were in conflict. And the thing that I actually need to do is say, I am afraid. That you won't love me or you will be upset with me because of X, Y, and Z.

And, and Cody being able to address that fear directly is then very important. Um, yeah, and so entering into that place of, of doing it scared. One, one really beautiful thing about Katherine's analogy of seeing the black bear and feeling afraid and then wanting to run away is what you're, Not supposed to do when encountering a black bear is run away.

You'll actually trigger their fear response, uh, and they'll chase you and possibly maul you. So you're, uh, if you encounter a black bear, uh, call to it. Signal to it that you're there and it'll probably leave you alone. And if it does decide to charge you, Countercharge yelling, running and screaming. I don't think this is legal or wilderness or black advice.

Uh, you do it instead, but it's, it's a, it really beautifully demonstrates that your brain wants you to do a thing that probably isn't helpful, right? Which is to catastrophize or to try to appease or do all these other things that you will think will get you out of the scenario in an easier, painless way.

When the reality is it needs to be addressed. You have to yell at the bear. You have to charge the bear. You have to deal with the bear, not run away from the bear. It's a good job at having a terrible memory of wilderness survival on really pretty, beautiful. The point being that your amygdala in response to actual dangerous situations will teach you to run away.

And that is a natural inborn trait. Um, maybe, maybe wolves. Wolves in the woods, as opposed to black bears, because Kony is right. There you go. Don't run from bears. Changed the analogy a little bit. Don't run from black bears. Even a grizzly bear can run like 40 miles per hour, like you're not, you can do like three.

Like they're going to be on you. Well, you might, you guys might have just saved a life right now. So thank you for all of that. And no, it's a, it's good stuff. And totally understand what you both are saying and um, men really, really helpful. I love to keep talking, but I know we're at the end of our time and just wanted to give you guys the final word.

Catherine, I'll go to you first and Cody if you want to add any advice, I'm curious, like we have people listening right now who they don't come from broken families, but they are maybe dating or engaged or perhaps even, you know, newly married. to someone who comes from a broken family, maybe married for a little bit while.

Um, just curious. Yeah. What advice or what lessons maybe Catherine, you've learned that you would like to pass along to like the younger you that's listening. So I'll give you guys the final word. And again, Cody, feel free to jump in as well. And thanks so much for coming on the show. I'm just really honored.

Absolutely, Jerry. It's been so fun to, to be here and to share our story, um, and share what, what little we can, uh, as we've learned in the first couple months of marriage and our, yeah, our whole preparation for that. Um, I think just recognizing that I, as someone who came from an intact family and had no close friends who really dealt with divorce, um, To be willing to acknowledge my own naivete or my own, like, lack of understanding what was actually coming, um, and I think that came up a lot in the wedding planning process.

I, I think I always just had this image that I was going to marry a man from a large family and we were just, and I was going to get to be a part of his family because that was something that was very important to me, um, and just the whole idea that there would be parents that were, We're not amiable with each other, even in divorce.

I think I always have this picture of like, oh, we still live in the same town and we talk to each other. Um, cause that had been my one experience of divorce with my cousins. Um, but I was just, I was maybe a little blindsided, um, just by some of the relationships navigating, especially wedding planning.

like inviting both mom and dad and wanting them to be there because it was an important day, but then how do we deal with step parents? What role do they play? What does that impact? And even now preparing for our first kid, like what do we, what do we call grandparents? Do they get special names? How does that work?

Um, and so just, you know, Being, I think reminding my younger self that just being honest with those places that I didn't know what was coming Um, and being willing just to yeah to to listen to you in those places Um, but also to be okay with challenging you Um, yeah, I have I have this vision for our family for all families that they would be a place of love of connection of opportunities for growth for both spouses and children and anyone else who gets to witness that family's life.

Um, and so, yeah, just reminding myself to, to listen to you in the things that you needed, especially wedding planning. I think that was a little stressful to do. Um, just having, planning a wedding twice. Um, yeah, we, we ended up postponing our wedding, um, a month or so before it was actually supposed to go through.

So, yes, which a third great episode could be all about that. Um, but just, yeah, navigating those relationships. And also holding on to the ideal, like never being willing to set aside that there is something different that we want for our family. And, and it's been so good even now to continue to remind Cody and myself of that, that we want to do things differently.

We don't want our marriage to end in divorce. We're willing to work at it. We're willing to invest a lot of time and money. I know counseling is expensive and that was something that we committed to and continue to commit. Um, and so being willing to invest, um, in those things that will help us be, yeah, the best Stosses that we can be.

Again, big thanks to Catherine Cody for coming on the show. I'm really excited for you guys. Congrats on your new baby. And, uh, yeah, I know you guys are going to be great parents. So excited to see you grow into that role. If you guys want more content like this, more practical tips on how to navigate conflict and even build a really healthy, beautiful marriage, either now or in the future, we have a free guide for you.

The problem I think that all of us face is that We all desire love, but if we're honest, when most of us aren't sure how to go about building and to make matters worse, we're often discouraged by the prevalence of divorce. And doing maybe fear that our own marriage will end that way, especially if we saw our parents marriage fall apart growing up.

And so in this practical guide for singles and for couples, we have for a roadmap for love, really simple, practical roadmap for love based on marriage research. Time tested couples and Christianity's wisdom. The guide contains seven practical tips to build a healthy relationship and even a divorce proof future marriage.

And so if you want the guide, just go to restored ministry. com slash marriage, or just click on the link in the show notes again, restored ministry. com slash marriage, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them.

Honestly, feel free to take 30 seconds now and just shoot him a message, uh, if you'd like. And in closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#117: Children & Parents Deserve Better Than Divorce | Jennifer Friesen

So many divorces happen because one spouse follows their desires at the expense of their vows. That happened in the family of my guest today. 

In this episode, we cover:

• How her family’s dysfunction led to struggles with gender and sexuality

• The beautiful transformation she’s experienced and even seen in her parents

• The biggest lie about getting divorced

• A new organization that’s fighting for children’s rights

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Visit Them Before Us

Visit Dakota Lane Fitness

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So many divorces happen because one spouse chooses to follow their desires at the expense of their vows. And what follows in the family is often just devastation, both for the abandoned spouse and for the children. And that's what happened in the family of my guest today. And so we discuss all that.

Plus we talk about how we're Her family's dysfunction actually led to her struggling with her gender identity and sexuality. We touch on the beautiful transformation that she's seen in her own life and even the lives of her parents. We also talk about the biggest lie that people are told about getting divorced.

And finally, she shares about a new organization that's fighting for children's rights. Stay with us.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 117. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard a lot of great feedback.

One listener said this, they said, love your podcast. It's been very timely and helpful to me. Another said this, This is an excellent podcast. Highly recommend again. We're so happy that you found it helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota lane fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthier, maybe you've tried workout plans and meal plans that just didn't work for you.

Then listen up, this is for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach. Who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym Dakota builds, customize fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world and a safe.

An approachable environment, but what else makes Dakota different than the many, many fitness coaches out there? I want to mention just three things. One he's done it himself. He walks the walk. He doesn't just talk the talk. He's a very healthy ripped dude, but he's also a good virtuous man too. He's not just focused on making his body better and stronger, but The rest of his life as well.

Second thing, he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And, uh, from that experience and from his experience studying at Franciscan University of Steubenville, as well as the Augustine Institute, he developed this belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, like your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body, he said, we really do need to care for all of it, uh, so that we can become more virtuous and more free.

to love. And finally, I would say that Dakota's mission is not just to help you get strong, but really to help you experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating your body the way it was meant to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and also your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this Dakota Lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results his clients have achieved. Go to Dakota lane fitness. com or just click on the link in the show notes. Again, Dakota lane fitness. com or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Jennifer Friesen. Jen has worked in the nonprofit world since 2010, first with Youth with Special Needs, and then with the organization Them Before Us.

Currently, Jen works as the director of training and the host of the Them Before Us podcast at the organization Them Before Us. Personally, Jen advocates for the church to equip young people with a healthy and biblical view of sexuality, and she blogs at Do Better Theology on matters of sexuality, culture, and religion.

and politics. And if you couldn't tell already, this conversation does go into faith and talks about God a bit. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast knows that this isn't a strictly religious podcast. Wherever you're at, again, I'm happy you're here.

My challenge to you is this. If you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And with that, here's my conversation with Jen.

Jen, it's so good to have you on the show.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

I'm a big fan of what you guys are doing at, uh, them before us. And I know you do more than just that, but I really want to drill into your story and just hear all about it. Uh, starting out, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? I think I was about 17. So probably later than a lot of.

Folks, but I'm, I'm thankful for that in some ways. I mean, we can kind of get into it, but yeah, we're, my siblings were 16 probably. Okay. So there's a three or four of you. There's three of us. Sorry. So I have an older brother, younger sister. Yeah. Okay. That's good to know for context. Cause I know we have people come from different family sizes and yeah, I mean, we see the whole gamut.

Like we see people who are super young when their parents get divorced or kind of like me where I was like and then, um, other people who, you know, It happens later in life, even while they're in college, stuff like that. So yeah, totally, um, totally depends, but, uh, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing what, what happened?

Yeah. So I would say my parents had a medium conflict marriage. It wasn't a high conflict marriage. It wasn't violent. There was an addiction, things like that. I would say. My dad's life was kind of marked with if he wanted to do something, he was going to kind of go ahead and do it. This was his second marriage, which I didn't know at the time.

And so his life was just kind of characterized by, you know, if I see something new in front of me and I want to go that direction, I'm going to do it. So. He reconnected with someone that he had known from the past, you know, one thing led to the other and he decided to leave the marriage, but they had a decent amount of conflict my whole life, so my picture of male and, like, a dad and a mom, male and female, was kind of that, you know, men are just kind of grumpy, irritated, they get to do whatever they want to do, they're in complete control.

Women just have to do what they're told, do whatever to keep the peace. Um, and there wasn't a lot of affection between my parents. There wasn't a lot of connection in general. My mom was, was really great about taking the three of us kids out on adventures on the weekend or. Doing, she would take us to plays or museums, like find ways to do those things for free or, or cheap to give us a lot of cultural experiences.

And it just adventures around town. I just don't remember my dad being a part of any of that. And it was like, we were all relieved at some level if he wasn't around. But he was also the primary caregiver because he was a truck driver, so he was only gone a few days a week. My mom worked outside the home and then would homeschool us, like, in the evenings.

But so my primary caregiver is the one that I perceive as being highly irritable, doesn't really want us around, kind of aggressive toward us, and my The person I want most in my life is the person who's out of the home. I had a lot of anxiety, like, she's not going to come home. I, I thought, I think as a kid, I thought it was going to be like a car accident or a something like that.

I think as an adult, I can look back on that and say some moms just don't come home. You know, like some dads, it's too difficult. The marriage is too hard. Raising kids is too hard. And they just don't come home. Abandon their family. I think I was really scared. She would walk off and not come back to the situation.

So I had a lot of anxiety. It's been healing as an adult to think back and be like, wow, my mom always came back home and re entered into kind of a difficult situation. But, so that was kind of the dynamic of our, my parents marriage. And then, yeah, so they announced at a family dinner that my dad, because of this reconnection with this, old flame in a sense, um, was deciding to leave the family.

And so my mom made it clear she was willing to, wanted to work on it, figure it out. And he was not so. Okay. Thanks for sharing. And yeah, I'm so sorry for what you went through and it sounds like you were really attuned to kind of what was going on in the home. I know some people that kind of have an idea that something's off, but they don't really know the details cause he has the parents, you know, maybe keep it under wraps or whatever, but it sounds like you were, um, um, Kind of in tune with what was going on.

And, um, when did you find out? I'm curious about the second marriage. Was that something that came later in life or when, how old were you when you found that out? We, it was when my dad's dad was dying. So passing away or he had passed away, but we were all over in that other state and looking through different things at the house.

And so I was probably 13 or 13. So this was a few years before, and he showed us a picture of his, I didn't even recognize him, but it was with my mom, she was also there, and she showed, they showed a picture, and they're like, oh, this is your dad, and it's a wedding picture. And I was like, but that's not mom.

And my first question was like, is my older brother actually ours? But I said it in sort of a hopeful way, because he and I never got along, like my older brother and I always were at odds. So, our first, that was my first recollection that, oh, he'd been married before. I don't remember feeling strongly about it.

They didn't say what had happened. He had done the same thing, in essence, to his first wife. They didn't have any children. So, I didn't get any more details, but it was this very fascinating realization. So, your parents aren't, they're much more than you know them to be, you know. Oh, I hear you. And, uh, that makes sense.

I guess at this point in life, I'm curious, kind of drilling into this whole second marriage thing, um, have your feelings changed over time? Has that been kind of an impactful thing, or maybe not so much? So now my dad's been married and divorced three times, because he married the third woman, basically.

As an adult, I can look back and I see my parents with both More clarity and more grace clarity for things that were negative grace for things that were well grace for things that were negative as well But you know I do see my parents as all people are Dealing with whatever the tools they have in their toolbox from their parents marriage from that from how they were raised from their faith Background, whatever So, you know, someone who's been married and divorced three times, he's looking for something.

He wants something, whether it's thinking the next connection will be better than the one you already have at some level, or just being easily turned, your head being sort of easily turned to temptation, sexual temptation, things like that, whatever those things were. I think for sure it's, it's very impactful.

Um, my mom being the marriage that had children. It's kind of a convoluted story, but there was a, a different woman. There was an abortion. So, so I have like a half sibling that is that passed away, but we're the only children, you know, so that my dad has. So that's an interesting dynamic. So we sort of feel like you're the primary marriage and they were married for like 25 years.

So his longest marriage. And so there's so much investment and so much that I would say in my head, this was very worth keeping and fighting for. He only realizes this in hindsight. He, I would say if he could go back in time, he would a hundred percent change his behavior or have wanted to stay. I think that's one of his biggest regrets in life.

And I want to say too at the onset, I feel like I have a good relationship with my dad. And, um, I'm a Christian and our family, we were raised Christian. That's very important to us. I would say he really does demonstrate. Now more of, you know, what Christians call like fruit of, of someone who is living a Christian life.

It's kind of slow. It's kind of here and there, but it is kind of neat to say I see more of that now than I think I ever saw growing up. So I'm really thankful for that. So I feel like I'm kind of, it's kind of nice to be able to talk about my dad as sort of a past self. And, and, but to say it in the sense of I have forgiveness for him and I think he is trying to live in a way that's more faithful now, even with those mistakes in the past.

Yeah, no, I hear you and the grace and the transformation. Those are two words that come to mind when you share all that I love that you gave your parents grace because I think that's super important I think there is a temptation to fall into being very bitter Very angry holding on to unforgiveness when it comes to you know mistakes that our parents made and so it is helpful to see that Well, they're human and you can love them through that.

And at the same time, as I know you'd say, we can still say, well, the ways in which they hurt me or they neglected me, like that was wrong. That shouldn't have happened. But at the same time, like, no, I love my mom. I love my dad. And, uh, yeah, I wouldn't trade them for anything. Honestly, I wish things were different, but I love them.

And it's cool as well to see the transformation of my parents lives as well. And so that that's beautiful to hear. And I think that's hopeful too, because a lot of times what I've noticed in the young people that we work with is we worry a lot about our parents. Um, yeah. almost like disproportionately.

It's, it's some people from the outside looking in, they kind of see it as this odd thing. It's like, well, you have all these like wounds and problems associated with your family and your parents. Um, yet at the same time, you have this like deep concern and love for them. No, I'm not saying everyone feels this way, but I I've noticed that.

And so, um, we, we want, we want well for them. We want them to, even if there is some hurt, even if there is some unforgiveness, ultimately, I think we, we, we do want the best for them. Um, have you noticed that as well? And maybe people, you know, who come from broken families? Yeah, it does seem to reverse the parent child dynamic in some ways.

A lot of times, it seems like then the parent will choose one of the kids to start confiding in more. I don't think, I think my mom was pretty good about that, not doing that to us. We had a faithful church community that we were always a part of, even when my dad chose to leave. So I think she had people she could turn to that were appropriate to confide in and to share really hard things with.

Um, I've noticed like my dad doesn't have a ton of relationships, not super involved in church. And so it's. It's almost like he tries to talk to me like that in some ways, which is not my favorite thing. It's not, it's not like the role any kid wants to be in. And maybe that's harder if you're older, maybe because you're more the appropriate age where typically You're raised by your parents, and then you become an adult, and it can, it, it changes a little bit into more of a peer relationship.

You have more experiences, now you know what it's like to pay taxes, and you know, all the things your parents might have joked with you of, you know, when you pay taxes, then you can do this or that. It's like, well now I pay taxes, and I drive, and I know how to do all these things. And so it comes more of a like, a little bit more of a peer thing.

But I think that gets either accelerated or jolted in some weird way when there's a divorce because I don't even know how to explain why. I think my parents were pretty good about that though. Um, my, my mom did a good job of encouraging us to go stay connected to my dad. But it wasn't like, tell me everything your dad's doing.

I can't believe your dad did this or that. You know, she was not. Using us as an outlet for pain or her thoughts about him. And he wasn't doing that in reverse. So I am thankful they were both acting, remaining the parents in that situation, even though you feel a tension. And one of our parents was always alone for one of the holidays until my mom got remarried.

So that's very, my younger sister, very, it feels very stressed by that. Well, if we go here for this part of the holiday, this parent's going to be alone. But it's just hard. You feel really sad and bad for them. And some of it's like, this is the natural consequence. Even when we've forgiven each other and we get along great, we're not spending every holiday all together.

That's a consequence of what? Yeah. No. And I, I, every holiday I feel that like pit in my stomach when it comes to like, well, dad's alone now or mom's on this one and it's not an easy thing to go through. I agree. So yeah, no, I think, um, totally makes sense what you're saying about the, uh, I know psychologists call it like triangulation or, um, some people call it like spousification more like that.

Yeah. I think the way I've heard it explained and the way I try to talk about it is, you know, Mom and dad, like they have very real, like emotional needs and they're going through difficult things and they need someone there to confide in and all those things. And so the children often like, we're just there and we want to, we love them, we want to help them.

And so they end up, you know, talking to us, which, like you said, is just not the appropriate thing. Even I would argue as adults, like they need other people in their life who they can talk to the, uh, talk about with those things. So it didn't totally relate there, but, um. Another thing I just wanted to point to was like your mom's example, you know, even though things were imperfect, even though there was a, there was tension, it was a really difficult family marriage situation to live through.

There was something that stuck with you, like you said, of her example of like, showing up, you know, coming back, you know, hopefully working on it and things like that. And I think that, um, The narrative in our culture right now especially is to, yeah, just kind of stay married and be miserable in those situations or get divorced and be happy.

And I think that middle ground of, um, the third option of, you know, you could work on your marriage and heal it and it can be better. I know in every case that doesn't happen. Um, but even if not, you know, absent abuse and extreme things like that, um, It is such a beautiful thing to like stick at it, to keep trying.

'cause so often what we've seen is, and that, I know there's research on this too, that if you stay at it, you know, and you get the help that you need, your marriage can like transform. Mm-Hmm it can become better. Like, it's not just like this downhill slope. Right? Yeah. We definitely would disagree that there's only those two binary options.

You know, stay and be miserable. Leave and be happy. If those things are even completely true, because leaving the marriage, I think there's some stats to say, you know, people might feel an immediate sense of pleasure or it's better now. But like, for example, my dad's third marriage, the one he left my mom for, it lasted two years, which is about as long as, you know, The infatuation kind of new stage can last, you know, according to some people.

So I feel like I've seen this or heard this anecdotally quite a bit is people will leave to start the new thing. Well, a lot of those problems just come with you, but now you're leaving a trail of brokenness behind you, particularly for kids who a lot, you know, when we post, so I've done before us, when we post different.

Articles or quotes about divorce will inevitably get some comments that say my parents got divorced and I'm happier now. Maybe because they're indicating there was a high conflict marriage. My parents fought all the time so now I'm happier. Or they, they don't like one of those parents for their behaviors.

Addictive behaviors or abusive or whatever. And even if that is completely true, that's an outlier. And you could be happier that your parents in a high conflict marriage aren't there fighting all the time. But I always try to present the idea, what if your parents had done the hard work of Going to get counseling, going to get sober, separating for a time, if there's a safety issue or something, separating to make sure there's safety, and that parent getting the help they need, and then coming back and being healthy and happy.

Would that not have been better than your parents getting divorced? Can we at least say, you know, there's a ideal, and adults need to do a bunch of hard things. To, to fix a marriage that's breaking or broken, but we jump, I guess our culture jumps quickly to there's discomfort. This is really hard and it would be better for me.

Don't my kids want to see me happy? And then thinking that's a good excuse to bail on the marriage. And so I have some close people who really walked through some of that considering are we going to separate? Or not, you know, cause like we can't do it anymore. And, um, but the children was the biggest consideration, understanding what that would do to their kids was their biggest consideration to kind of stick it out and really try to find help and support.

And I'm so thankful that in this instance of someone I'm close to, there's been some positive moves. So I just appreciate, I'm like, wow, that person sticking it out. And again, people of faith praying and being hopeful and seeking help has helped their marriage now is going kind of on that upward trajectory versus just leaving.

Wow. Yeah. No, I love that. And you're right. It is presented as like this easy option that will lead to happiness, which isn't true. It's, it's really not, I guess it depends on how you define happiness. If it's a lack of, uh, you know, discomfort, then that's a really dangerous road to go down. Cause I don't think you can do anything meaningful and Have a satisfying life if you're trying to just avoid discomfort.

So yeah, um, man, so much. I want to comment on, but I love the question you asked. And it's so funny. We asked that exact same question as like, would you prefer your parents to have like, wouldn't it have been better if they just worked through things and healed the marriage? And I think for a lot of people that aren't anything, that's great.

possible. Um, but it is like, I've seen it as well. And there's so many stories that I'm aware of, of people who've, who've done even though if I, even if I don't know them personally, so really good stuff there. Yeah. There's some other things I wanted to go back to as well. Like the situation that you were describing in your family, again, like your mom's heroic example, working through things, your dad's kind of tendency to kind of go where his desires led.

And I think that, It hits at the core of what you guys do at Them Before Us of like elevating these adult, adult desires over the rights of children. And so since we're at this point in the conversation, I'm curious if you, um, yeah, I'm curious to hear maybe a little bit more about Them Before Us. I knew I was going to wait for till later, but I think that's so relevant right now with what we're talking about.

So yeah, what is the work that you guys do? And then we'll transition back into your story. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Them Before Us is a nonprofit, international nonprofit. We have a lot of connections all over the world. that wants to reframe all these conversations, all these controversial topics, marriage, family, third party reproduction, which includes things like sperm donation, egg donation, surrogacy, IVF.

We want to frame everything from the perspective of the rights of the child. So, for example, when we want to argue a public policy issue about should surrogacy be legal or not, we want Instead of us arguing along typical, maybe in the United States, um, you know, blue versus red politics or this is about religious freedom or this is about my religion says you shouldn't do it.

We say, let's consider the rights of the child if someone is using a surrogate. Okay, where did the embryo come from? Was it a sperm donor, egg donor? Well, that's a violation of a child's rights. Because if you're being, you know, Quote donated from sperm or egg. There's a good chance. You're never gonna know your mom or dad Creating motherless or fatherless children is a violation of that child's rights We have the right to know the two people we came from that's the best way for a child to thrive is not only to know The mother and father we came from, but be raised by them, married in the same home.

We know that's ideal for children up until two seconds ago, when it became culturally advantageous to not do that, you know, since culture decided, Hey, you know, we're kind of going to say whatever adults want to do is great. And now here's the science that proves what we want it to say. Well, we had decades of social science before that.

That said, fatherlessness is a big deal. It's not ideal if children need adoption. That means you lost something. You know, so anyway, any topic then, so if we talk about divorce, if we talk about what should, how should marriage be defined, we are trying to train people to ask that question first. Does this impact the rights of a child?

And that helps us frame our answers. And we've found a lot of success because it's really helping us stay away from religious disagreements. It's helping us a little bit, stay out of political disagreements, though, unfortunately, really only one side of the political spectrum in the United States. Is even open to conversations like this, which is the more conservative side, but it's, it's been very helpful because we're really trying to like, dig down to these most basic ideas, natural rights, biology.

This should inform our public policy and our law. And it's been very helpful because it really is, is undercutting a lot of the arguments about. You're a bigot or this is just about religion because we're saying, no, it's not. I'm just talking about the biology that this child has a mom and a dad and has rights.

Beautiful. I love that. And I know you guys do, um, work on public policy. You do a lot of different interviews and things like that. What else specifically do you guys offer? We're just finishing right now a small group curriculum for churches. So if you have a church community group, that kind of thing, we're going to have a workbook and seven sessions that people can walk through.

It'll go through each of our chapters. In our book, we'll talk about surrogacy. Here's what the data says. Here's the them before us argument, and then we'll connect it to scripture and the Christian ethic. So that's really exciting. We have a documentary that's being worked on. If you saw the, this is a woman or what is a woman documentary, um, it'll be similar in style, just in the sense of we're trying to boil it down again.

What is a child? Is it, is it a, just, it has rights. It's kind of a thing that can become a person one day and it'll eventually have rights when we say so. Or is it a human being with unique value and that has rights. And so we're going to have a lot of different interviews with experts and talk about what is a child.

We are developing a human resources package or basically a way to go to. an organization and say, here's how you should frame a child friendly human rights package. Or sorry, healthcare. What is HR stand for? Human resources package. Sorry, not human rights. HR. Nice. That's good. That's like a, um, It's kind of like both, right?

But so for example, these big companies are giving you money to go get an abortion out of state. We would say to a company, do not offer that. Offer an adoption credit. You know, offer, offer counsel. Offer if someone has an unexpected pregnancy. Offer, um, Different things they can do to, to write off the need for diapers or, you know, things that if they need marriage counseling, you should offer a credit for marriage counseling to your employees.

And I don't even know all the details of what's inside there because I'm not within the HR sphere, but it's basically the idea to present companies. Here's these alternatives. We're not helping people do. IVF and surrogacy and, and redefining infertility just to mean whoever, whenever. Because, you know, California has a bill that's redefining it.

So I'm a single woman under California's new bill. I can be considered infertile and get state benefits to go get a sperm donor, et cetera. So, or, you know, same sex couples can be redefined to be infertile. And this project would help companies not use those kinds of benefits that violate the rights of children, but frame benefits that are helping promote family marriages, And if you are truly infertile and cannot have children, here's the ways that you can go about helping a child, adopting, and things like that.

So good. Thanks for kind of breaking that down. And I know some people listening right now might feel like an objection to some of that. And I would just offer two things. One, Don't children deserve to be protected? Don't children deserve to be protected? I think so. And, um, if they do, like how so? And I think that's where the second question comes in of like, um, if you disagree with this stuff, why don't you hear them out?

Hear out them before us, listen to their podcast, check out their book, their resources and see, you might agree with, you know, 80 to 90 percent of it. Um, and then on those maybe 10 to 20 percent you don't agree, um, look into it. Like, I think it's intellectually honest to. Go into those areas where there is some disagreement, because I know these are hot topics.

I want to acknowledge that from the outset. And, uh, so, but I appreciate you going through all that and kind of transitioning from there back into your story, this whole theme of adults putting like their desires, their quote unquote, happiness over the rights of children, um, is something that happens all the time in various areas.

But of course, in this conversation, we're focusing on the area of like divorce and, you know, separation and broken families. Bye. One thing that, um, you made me think of before too, was, uh, John Eldridge, the author, he, um, talks about this, uh, phenomenon. I was just thinking of your dad's kind of tendency towards, you know, these flings and stuff.

Um, this phenomenon John Eldridge talks about of the woman with the golden hair, where, you know, you have someone, he just explained this experience where he would see these like blonde haired women, and he would feel like this pull on his heart of like, Oh, they're going to solve all my problems. They're going to take away all my pain.

They're going to bring me the, you know, the happiness that I deeply long for. Um, and he just goes into saying how it can be such a lie. And we're, I think so many of us, even if we're not at that level of like, Hey, I'm just going to leave my family and go run off for this woman. Um, we experienced that whether male or female, we experienced this like, Oh gosh, I think this thing will, will offer me all the happiness that I long for.

And you touched on this before. Well, but, um, I, that image has always. With Eldridge. And on that note, I'd love to hear if you have anything to add to that, but I also want to hear, um, just, yeah. How else the breakdown of your parents, marriage, your family, their ultimate divorce affected you. Yeah, I think.

Actually, that kind of idea, so seeking after, looking for something that will satisfy you, is ultimately why I was able to have so much forgiveness for my dad. So, part of growing up for me, I think a lot to do with the dynamic I saw of male and female. I had a lot of gender Confusion. I wouldn't say dysphoria because it wasn't like a diagnosable thing.

I just thought, I was a Christian as long as I could remember, as early as I could remember, but I had a thought, God made me wrong. Like there's a switch somewhere up in heaven, on off, girl boy, whoops, he did the wrong one. I'm in a girl's body for some reason. I just think, in a child's mind, You feel discomfort, or you feel a sense of here's the interests I like, or I prefer to wear this kind of clothing, I like to wear pants versus dresses, and still do, but you start to, you see these things very, it's very binary, well, my brother likes doing these things, and wears these kind of clothes I prefer, and he's a boy, and my sister wears these kind of, she was a lot more girly, and like dolls and all this stuff, And I prefer this way.

So I must have been made wrong and was probably supposed to be a boy. Well, what am I going to do with that? Nothing. I could really articulate as a kid. I think because of my parents, I mean, my mom's working 40 hours a week and homeschooling, and I'm sure my parents are stressed about money and they're figuring stuff out.

You think all of these things as an adult looking back, right? Adults. I have so many things there trying to figure out why my kid is throwing a fit because she doesn't want to wear the dress or the church shoes. I don't think was a thing in there that like, this is a deeper thing we should talk to her about.

There just wasn't a lot of those tools or those conversations that I know of. In the eighties and nineties, you know, versus now, I think there's a lot of pretty good resources for Christian parents or more conservative parents. If your kids are saying or experiencing some of these gender things, there's a little more tools to deal with.

I don't think my parents really had those tools or the time to, to, to know, to like go into it anyway. So I experienced some of that. I experienced. Felt same sex attraction. So toward my peers again, my perception of male is scary and control and You know kind of I want to avoid and then my perception of women makes sense to me What's that which makes sense to me like if that was all you knew about men Like why would you want to go that route right and my perception of women is I love my mom and I do not get enough time with her and I'm terrified she's going to leave or something's going to happen to her.

So a longing mother hunger. And so it kind of makes sense as you go through and then feeling the gender dysphoria kind of thing. Then you go through puberty and of course those broken misaligned, whatever thoughts start becoming sexualized. Right? So, okay. So that's stuff I'm dealing with without really talking to anyone in the nineties or early two thousands.

And then. Fast forward and I won't get too detailed, but I, I had a relationship with a woman that really just started out as an unhealthy friendship and then kind of progresses, but this is why I had so much grace for my dad. I did not wake up one day and think, you know what I'm going to do? Get into this relationship that's like secret, and I feel shame, and it's, it's It's not healthy in any way.

It's not healthy even if you thought being two women in a relationship was great. It still wasn't healthy for a lot of other reasons that a lot of relationships wouldn't be healthy. I didn't wake up one day and think I'm gonna wreck my life and do all this stuff, you know? It was a million little decisions.

Like you're saying that, that the golden hair, the appeal of something, I want this kind of love. I want feminine love and affection. And instead of going about it in appropriate ways and seeking appropriate mentorship and love and care, I'm going to go about it in a illegitimate way, I would say from the Christian perspective.

And when I sort of woke up to that and it's like, well, I don't want to be doing this anymore, but how do I get out of it? You know? And then it was a very difficult. hurtful process of getting out of that, confessing, kind of living openly with people. I was able to look back at my dad and say, he didn't wake up and think I'm going to wreck my 25 year marriage, ruin my kids lives, abandon everything I've, you know, we've done.

I'm, it was, it was decisions he made over time, little decisions. the golden haired person you turn your head and you start versus catching it in that moment and like in the christian perspective i've been hearing this a lot more and thinking about it like mortifying your sin the idea of like catching thoughts errant thoughts and different things that are not truthful um crucifying those thoughts and and repenting of and whatever before they get to these further stages, right?

Because by the time you're already, you've already done the thing, you're already in the relationship, and then you wake up, well now there's this trail, yeah, behind you of ruin. And that's why God, I think, tells us, you know, guard your heart, guard your mind, guard your thoughts, fill it up with the good things, fill it up with the truth, because we really are likely to just continue along down the path we're not supposed to go without even recognizing it, it feels like.

So my own sin and brokenness. And being, and doing what I did not want to do, a relationship that I should not have been in, gave me a lot of grace for my dad. And realizing, yeah, we get here because a million little mistakes and lack of repentance were sin. Not, you know, you wake up and I'm going to ruin everything today.

Yeah. Yeah. No one dreams of that. No one's like, okay, I'm going to, you know, build this marriage and this family, have kids. And then I'm like, you said, gonna leave it all. That's my dream. That's what I want in life. It's like, no, no one dreams of that. So no, it's really well put. And Yeah, I, um, no, your struggles make sense to me.

It makes sense that it led there. It makes sense that, um, yeah, everything, everything that you said. And I love the point about like mortification you said, um, which is if anyone's not familiar, it's like a Latin word, which means like basically to die to yourself, um, like to kill things, like you said, and, um, it's so powerful.

Like it leads to self mastery. It leads to you being more in control of yourself, which is. One of the steps of leading like a really meaningful life, uh, and, and even a really joyful, like happy life too. And so, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's been super helpful for me as well. Thank you for sharing so openly and thank you for talking through that.

And one, two resources I want to mention, and if anyone isn't, you know, maybe resonating with you and wants to know like, Oh man, I need some help in this area of like maybe gender dysphoria, um, or, you know, same sex attraction, whatever it might be, uh, Jason Everett is one of my mentors. He runs, um, An organization and he has a great book called male, female, other, um, and that's like basically a Christian guide on, um, wrestling with all these gender issues.

So it goes into a lot of the claims of gender theory and just kind of talks to those logically. And then it also, um, just has a lot of compassion and some guidance for people who do struggle with gender dysphoria. And then he has some other resources on his website, which we'll link to and the show notes, uh, related to, you know, navigating same sex attraction and things like that.

And then the other thing I was going to mention is. When it comes to the sexual, um, you know, temptations and things like that, like struggling with unwanted sexual behavior, we did a whole series on this topic called healing sexual brokenness. And so we'll link to that in the show notes, but I think if you go to our website, restored ministry.

com slash, um, I think it's sexual brokenness. We'll, we'll put this in the show notes, then you'll see all the episodes. We did a whole series with these awesome experts and different resources that will help you navigate through those. So just want to make sure you guys have all the help that you, you deserve.

Um, but Jen, I'm just curious, kind of, if there's anything else you wanted to add about different struggles you had that stemmed from the breakdown of your family before we transition into kind of the hopeful part of your story. Oh yeah. Yeah. I would just say. Yeah. I agree. We just need, that's why I think I'm passionate about wanting the church to have more of these resources, and again, I think you mentioned a bunch of great ones, but there's been so many things written in even the last five years.

years resources that didn't exist. Or I didn't, granted we didn't have the same access to the internet and ability to find, you know, youtube videos and stuff. We're just starting out when I was more of a preteen, so it wasn't that I could go Google different things, but I think parents being the first ones to talk to their children, about, Sexuality and what does it mean to be male?

And what does it mean to be female? And correcting a lot of those childish thoughts that we think, well, I like wearing pants, so God must've made me a girl on accident. It's like, no. And what's cool is I feel. I'm in my mid thirties now. I feel the most me I've ever felt the most comfortable in, in my body and who I am as a woman now.

So I would not go back to being 13 for anything in the world because, you know, every, but everyone experiences those changes during puberty and those feelings and the hormones and all these things. Right. And whatever the family and friend dynamics are, everyone is experiencing those. It's just that when you have.

confusion about gender and then sexuality i think it then can just get really mixed up where if someone is able to say someone a feeling comfortable to share it at all it feels dark and shameful when at least at the very very beginning a little kid thinking oh god made me a girl on accident it's not like sinful thinking it's just childish thinking because we don't understand who god is and that he doesn't make a mistake you're a male or female for good you Righteous reason both are made in God's image from the Christian perspective, but an adult to say, Oh, no, that's, that's not true.

You can like this interest, that interest, you can dress, you can dress in this color, that color, but God made you a girl on purpose. It's a good thing. Here's all the reasons that's so good. He made your brother a boy on purpose. Here's all the reasons that's so good. We need both. And then continually help correct thinking that is off.

In a way that's very cheerful, it's not scary, it's not shameful, but little kids need to understand. Oh, okay, yeah, I thought this weird thing about God, but my mom, or dad, told me. But God's actually like this. So now I know that's not true. God made me a girl on purpose. It's okay if I like playing sports.

And I, we don't, we, some of us don't have that from when we're little, we have it now, or at some level, you're responsible for doing it for yourself now, because we're an adult, like Paul in the Bible says, When I was a child, I thought and reasoned like a child, but now you're an adult. So you need to think and reason like an adult, right?

So I don't even know if that answers the question. No, no, no. So good. And that's super helpful. And one of the things you made me think of too, that I learned from Jason Everett, who wrote that book, Male, Female, Other, as he says that, uh, in our culture, we, Claim that a woman, for example, is like someone with a female personality and any body when the opposite is actually true.

It's a woman is someone with a female body and any personality, which can run the gamut, right? You know, people who are maybe a little bit more like traditional masculine traits or more, more of a leader, more like, you know, physically fit, like things like that, that you'd normally associate with a man.

Like a woman can totally, you know. Have those characteristics, have those qualities and still be like fully woman, fully feminine. And so, yeah, it's, uh, it's, there's so much confusion out there. So I'm glad you're shedding light. The work you guys are doing is awesome. And so glad we can, you know, give people some resources as well.

But I'm curious, um, just honing in a little bit more in relationships, whether it's dating relationships or friendships, how did, um, your, Yeah. Everything that happened in your family impact those. Uh, I, I was remembering this this morning. My mom made counseling available to us, like offered to pay for it and help us get there and things like that.

When, when the divorce happened, I think I was the only one who did it. My brother and sister just processed it in different ways. But so I went to counseling I personally have really benefited from Christian counseling. It was also something I could do for free at the college I went to, you know, cause there's like students, psychology students that are counseling you.

And, but I think beyond that, so counseling was very helpful. I think just to process and, and talk things out. And just like I said to you, okay, if my dad, if my experience, my dad this way and my mom this way, and then I feel these things. A counselor for me was the person who said that makes sense, which I had never sort of drawn lines and thought, I'm not crazy, I'm not some psycho broken person that feels this way, it would make sense that someone experiencing some of these things might feel a certain way, and Christian counseling doesn't leave you at all.

Okay, it makes sense that you feel that way, because Christian counseling, and especially myself, because I am a Christian, still wanted to know, well, is the way I feel and want to act righteous, unrighteous, healthy, or not healthy? And then I think that's what the Christian ethic helps you do. Okay, well, it makes sense that you feel this way, but then we need healing, repentance, and healing.

New patterns of thinking, etc. So we can move from unhealthy to healthy, right? It's not just saying, oh, you feel that way. Great. That's who you are. So that's very helpful. And then I'm so thankful not only for just women who mentored me. I've had a number of women, like women have been my bosses in the jobs I've worked at.

I've done Christian and non profit work for most of my career, but I've had mentors, close friends, people I really did feel I could share deep things with and you feel like it's very dark and shameful until you share them out loud to other people who feel Experience something similar or they can really understand how you feel and offer you prayer and biblical wisdom and just it's kind of the light thing.

Right? So things I feel dark and shameful and I don't tell anyone can fester and grow and it's like, you know, cancer inside of you versus when you are able to share things and shine light into dark places. You start feeling like you're not alone. You start feeling like you're not out of control. And so I'm really thankful for that.

I'm also really thankful for a lot of great marriages I've seen. So like one of my mentors, um, in a job I worked previously, her and her husband, We're just fun to be around. They weren't not traditional in the sense of her sort of deferring to his leadership on something or saying, Okay, well, I'm gonna go check with him to see about this or that scheduling or whatever.

Okay, there was definitely a notion that they were checking in on each other and they were going to be in agreement about something. It wasn't It wasn't like she was just doing whatever she wanted and he would go along with it, but it also wasn't what I perceived growing up, where they, the guy just gets to decide whatever he wants, doesn't care what the woman has to say at all.

I started being around people, men and women who are married, and having a very different picture of marriage than what I grew up with, a very positive picture, like genuine love, affection, caring for each other, serving each other. You know, men who are after a party where everybody's hanging out at the house where the bunch of the guys are the ones all doing the dishes and laughing and having fun and women are just hanging out on the couch and chatting, not even a thing where it's like talked about or the woman saying, can you please do the dishes?

That the husband deciding to do it and the guy friends just standing up and doing it. Things like that, that really start shaping your view of marriage away from just what you experienced growing up. I think is so important and I'm really thankful for. Beautiful. Yeah, so mentorship, close friends, and obviously a lot of my friends got married as well.

So then you're with your good friend. And their husband and their kids. And so that's a fun, cool picture too. You see the good and the bad you, I had one counselor that said, just because someone's marriage might be bad or having a hard time, doesn't mean the institution of marriage is bad. And I thought that was really good because yeah, everyone has difficulties or difficult seasons, but I still can honor and, you know, I still advocate for this institution as a good institution.

God honoring good for society kind of thing, even though I'm not married. So no, so good. Thanks for sharing all that. And everything you said sounds super helpful. And I've found so many of those things helpful in my own life. And I've heard that, uh, you know, from a lot of people who've who've been down through the experiences that you and I have been through.

I am curious when it comes to, yeah, just the transformation you experienced, you explained a little bit about this, but you know, you were kind of in this dark rough spot and now you're in a different spot. Uh, contrast that a little bit for us. I know your life isn't maybe perfect now, not no one's is, but, um, how is it different now than it was before?

How is it better? Yeah, I think growing up and, and feeling these feelings of gender stuff, same sex attraction, and not feeling like I had any place to go with it other than keeping it inside my mind. And I think a lot of building up, well, if I could just have this relationship with a woman, Then I probably would feel happy or maybe that is what I'm supposed to be doing or made for or whatever.

While my Christian ethic did, I would not say that or think that was true. In essence, I was wondering if that was true in my mind. Because it's all just kind of dark and locked up in there, which I think gave ground, you know, fertile ground for sin and desire, et cetera, to grow into a relationship. Then I find myself in with that woman that was not healthy and not good.

Okay, so all that getting Smashed apart and then confessing things to a bunch of people. Okay. So you thought this was just this friendship. Here's actually what was going on Here's all these ways I lied to you and was not being truthful. Here's all these things I think and feel I think it took a lot of the power away from it to be honest I definitely have never felt like it's this big thing.

It's like who I am I've never used any of the LGBT ways to like label myself. Like none of that has been meaningful to me. Rosaria Butterfield, if any of your listeners have heard of her or want to look her up, has been very influential in my thinking around sexuality, really great, uh, thinker and, uh, Author, and it's just been helpful because it, it makes it not as big of a thing.

Um, but at the same time, there is a sense of having to be on guard. Like you said, it's the, the golden hair lady. I think the, the problem is God really has to help heal the mother and the father wounds. For anybody, whatever combination that is, whatever it leads you to. Um, or we're going to get caught in those same patterns over and over again.

So for me now, it just means I'm a lot more upfront with people. And there's definitely a handful of people that know everything about me, where I can call them on the phone and say, can you pray for me? I feel this or I'm thinking this and that's really helpful, but and really necessary. Um, yeah, yeah, because if you don't have people that know you or check in on you, like I've had to give people permission to ask, will you ask me this question?

Will you ask me this question? Cause otherwise I don't want to answer that question. And most people won't think to ask it or it's uncomfortable to ask it because it feels nosy or like you're going to try to judge you or think you're doing something wrong. So there's been trusted people. I've said, here's all these ways I want you to check in on me.

And then. I, I blogged about some of these things and processed a lot at Do Better Theology. So it was interesting, it was kind of in response to this other group that was attacking my former business, my former non profit, because they were saying, this Christian business doesn't like LGBT people, won't let them be volunteers, won't let them be on staff, and they just did.

A few hundred posts condemning my, where I used to work. And so when I no longer worked there, I was like, okay, well, I'm going to respond to all these accusations, particularly about the work. But then I started sharing my own, you know, this is how I feel. This was my experience when I worked there. Here's the people I got to talk to.

And it's very powerful in a sense, because in our culture, your lived experience. Or whatever is very powerful. Like that's a powerful weapon culturally and even things working within them before us, we will get people who are very irritated with us because. Well, you're, you have no compassion for people who are infertile, you know, if you're saying there's ethical questions about these different things.

And it's like, I can respond and say, I don't know if I'm going to have children. It's different because I'm not married and trying and not able to have children. I haven't had miscarriages. I understand those things would be very painful and hard, but you're talking to someone who also doesn't know if she'll ever be able to have children.

So there is a different level, I think, of being able to talk to people because a lot of the maybe more manipulative tools. Are not there when it comes to arguing about sexuality and things like that. Yeah, i'm trembling now, but yeah, so I just feel like god has done a lot in this is good building up What does it mean to be a woman a typical woman a book by abigail dodds?

Highly recommend if anybody Listening has has felt any of these things particularly about what does it mean to be a woman? And it's like your point. She's you know, people will say well, how how am I a woman and a business owner? How am I a woman and a mechanic like what would what should I do? And she's like, you just are.

If you're a woman, that's how a woman fixes cars. It doesn't matter if you're, you know, I'm really aggressive as a businesswoman, or I'm really meek as a businesswoman, so should I act more like a man or more like a woman? She's like, you can't. You're a woman. And if you own a business, that's how a woman owns a business, you know, so it's, it's like you're saying, it's, you put the body and the biology first, and there's ways, of course, there's a few things in the Bible that says women should do or men should do specifically, but just because it says women You know, it might say women should be gentle over here.

Then it also says like elders are supposed to be gentle and not quarrelsome and different things. So just because it specifically says women should, there's the fruit of the spirit and all these kinds of things. It doesn't mean men also shouldn't do those things in a sense. Abigail Dodd says all of the Bible is for all of women, just like all of the Bible is for all of men.

And then there's some specific things that are great to take as well when it comes to being married. Women, wives should do this. Husbands should do this. Great. Good stuff. Thank you for going into all that and just sharing your, your story. And before we close here, I'm curious, um, If you were to talk to your parents, if they were maybe even listening right now, what would you want them to know?

What would you say? I would tell my parents. I love and appreciate them for the ways they did sacrifice for us growing up. I'm thankful they were married as long as they were. We had a lot of stability that if they had gotten divorced sooner, we would not have had. I can imagine boyfriends and girlfriends coming in and out.

Which house are we going to? Even just financially, the fact that they stayed together made it so we didn't, we never missed food on the table. We had family dinner every night. I, I can just see these positives and the stability that my parents gave particularly my mom, because she was willing to continue coming home.

And I have said this and would say that I forgive them for things they didn't do right, and that I understand and can have grace because of that. I also now know, even better, the older you get, the more of a sinner you know you are, and I can have compassion, like, we're only doing, we only, yeah, we have the tools that we have, and it's by God's grace that I'm as functional as I am, you know, I can't look back and say, I did all this, like, I'm great and fairly healthy and all these things, because I just figured it out, and you guys didn't figure it out, it's like, no, thankfully, I'm healthy.

My mom's influence in particular with, with faith, our church, people who mentored me, youth leaders, coaches, that's all God's grace to me. And so I can look back and just have compassion. My dad did not have all those same tools, but still he worked his job. He came home. He struggled a lot with mood and temperament and things like that.

But for the most part, we were safe and That's still adult sacrificing for you, you know, and so yeah, I'd want them to know I appreciate them for all the good things that I can see now, I forgive them for the things that were not ideal, and I think too, as an adult, I just want to make sure I'm taking responsibility for my own health and faithfulness, so as someone who's a Christian, I can't I can't say, well, I struggle with XYZ because you guys did this to me the rest of my life.

You know, at some level, I just need to say, well, what can I do to grow, to be healthier, to be more faithful? And so that's kind of where I've landed, I think, in my, you know, 30s. I spend a lot of the 20s going to counseling and trying to think through. What did you guys do to me? And then really you have to take responsibility.

And I've heard some people say you kind of have to parent yourself, but I would say from the Christian perspective, it's like allowing God, a perfect father, to help fill in those places that we're missing. And, and with Christian community and with the friends and families that you can surround yourself with.

Ask God to help fill in those missing spots and build, build you up in the ways that you feel like you're lacking. Yeah. No, I love it. Really good stuff. I, uh, Jen, thanks so much for sharing your story and for being so vulnerable again and, um, offering resources and things like that. If people want to follow you and find you online and, and then before us, how do they do that?

Yeah. So you can type in do better theology and I have a sub stack and an Instagram and then then before us. Really, you can type Them Before Us into any of the big social medias or into Google and you can find us. ThemBeforeUs. com is a great place to find kids stories. A lot of the, a lot of the difference with Them Before Us is we're highlighting the stories of the kids that have experienced these things because it's about them and their rights.

So I was from a surrogate, here's my story. So you can find all of that on ThemBeforeUs. com. You can follow Katie, who is our founder and president, who speaks on a lot of these topics. You'll find her. Um, what would you say to someone listening right now who feels stuck, who feels really broken because of, you know, everything they've been through and their family, their parents, marriage being a disaster, falling apart, maybe getting divorced?

Like what encouragement, what advice would you give to them in closing my biggest advice would be, um, To find someone to talk to so maybe I know Joey you guys have a lot of different resources for that for people to be able to connect with others, whether that's a faith community, whether that's, you know, Maybe someone in your family that's trusted to you, an aunt, an uncle, a grandparent, an older sibling, a good friend.

I would say find people to connect to and talk to about these things. We cannot process and do this alone. That's my primary thing. I think counseling is great, Christian counseling, but yeah, faith community and friendships that you can actually talk about hard things with people and And get a sense of compassion, not just get over it, but people who can talk through and listen to different things and encourage you, I think is number one.

Super grateful for Jen and all the good work that they're doing at Them Before Us. Go ahead and check them out. If you'd like, just search Them Before Us or you can find the link in the show notes. If you'd like to share your story with us, kind of like Jen did, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do it, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story Reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiological level.

It makes your brain healthier. Writing your story is actually healing as well. There has been so many studies that have found that people who write about these emotionally difficult events that they go through in their life end up being healthier, happier, less depressed, less anxious, and so on. Also sharing your story, not just writing it, not just thinking about it in a sharing your story with someone else who can receive it with empathy is also healing on a neurobiological level.

And then finally, if you were to share your story, because we're going to share it with thousands of people online, it's going to be able to help someone who's maybe going through something that you were going through and were able to overcome. And so if you want to share your story, the first step is just go to Restored Ministry.

And then the forum on that page will just guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and actually turn it into an anonymous blog article. And so if you want to do that, just go to restored ministry. com. Slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe, you know, someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. And all our resources are designed to help you heal. from the trauma you've endured and build virtues so you can break the cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone you know, just go to restoredministry.

com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, take like 30 seconds to just message them and say, Hey, I just listened to this podcast.

I thought you'd resonate with it given everything that you've been through. I hope it helps. Like honestly, you will be surprised. How much they'll be grateful for you just doing that simple act. So feel free to do that now if you'd like. In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.