#117: Children & Parents Deserve Better Than Divorce | Jennifer Friesen
So many divorces happen because one spouse follows their desires at the expense of their vows. That happened in the family of my guest today.
In this episode, we cover:
How her family’s dysfunction led to struggles with gender and sexuality
The beautiful transformation she’s experienced and even seen in her parents
The biggest lie about getting divorced
A new organization that’s fighting for children’s rights
Follow Jenn’s Blog, Do Better Theology
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
So many divorces happen because one spouse chooses to follow their desires at the expense of their vows. And what follows in the family is often just devastation, both for the abandoned spouse and for the children. And that's what happened in the family of my guest today. And so we discuss all that.
Plus we talk about how we're Her family's dysfunction actually led to her struggling with her gender identity and sexuality. We touch on the beautiful transformation that she's seen in her own life and even the lives of her parents. We also talk about the biggest lie that people are told about getting divorced.
And finally, she shares about a new organization that's fighting for children's rights. Stay with us.
Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 117. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard a lot of great feedback.
One listener said this, they said, love your podcast. It's been very timely and helpful to me. Another said this, This is an excellent podcast. Highly recommend again. We're so happy that you found it helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota lane fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthier, maybe you've tried workout plans and meal plans that just didn't work for you.
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to love. And finally, I would say that Dakota's mission is not just to help you get strong, but really to help you experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating your body the way it was meant to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and also your life, Dakota can help you.
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Dakota Lane is your man to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results his clients have achieved. Go to Dakota lane fitness. com or just click on the link in the show notes. Again, Dakota lane fitness. com or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Jennifer Friesen. Jen has worked in the nonprofit world since 2010, first with Youth with Special Needs, and then with the organization Them Before Us.
Currently, Jen works as the director of training and the host of the Them Before Us podcast at the organization Them Before Us. Personally, Jen advocates for the church to equip young people with a healthy and biblical view of sexuality, and she blogs at Do Better Theology on matters of sexuality, culture, and religion.
and politics. And if you couldn't tell already, this conversation does go into faith and talks about God a bit. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast knows that this isn't a strictly religious podcast. Wherever you're at, again, I'm happy you're here.
My challenge to you is this. If you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And with that, here's my conversation with Jen.
Jen, it's so good to have you on the show.
Thanks for having me. I'm excited.
I'm a big fan of what you guys are doing at, uh, them before us. And I know you do more than just that, but I really want to drill into your story and just hear all about it. Uh, starting out, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? I think I was about 17. So probably later than a lot of.
Folks, but I'm, I'm thankful for that in some ways. I mean, we can kind of get into it, but yeah, we're, my siblings were 16 probably. Okay. So there's a three or four of you. There's three of us. Sorry. So I have an older brother, younger sister. Yeah. Okay. That's good to know for context. Cause I know we have people come from different family sizes and yeah, I mean, we see the whole gamut.
Like we see people who are super young when their parents get divorced or kind of like me where I was like and then, um, other people who, you know, It happens later in life, even while they're in college, stuff like that. So yeah, totally, um, totally depends, but, uh, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing what, what happened?
Yeah. So I would say my parents had a medium conflict marriage. It wasn't a high conflict marriage. It wasn't violent. There was an addiction, things like that. I would say. My dad's life was kind of marked with if he wanted to do something, he was going to kind of go ahead and do it. This was his second marriage, which I didn't know at the time.
And so his life was just kind of characterized by, you know, if I see something new in front of me and I want to go that direction, I'm going to do it. So. He reconnected with someone that he had known from the past, you know, one thing led to the other and he decided to leave the marriage, but they had a decent amount of conflict my whole life, so my picture of male and, like, a dad and a mom, male and female, was kind of that, you know, men are just kind of grumpy, irritated, they get to do whatever they want to do, they're in complete control.
Women just have to do what they're told, do whatever to keep the peace. Um, and there wasn't a lot of affection between my parents. There wasn't a lot of connection in general. My mom was, was really great about taking the three of us kids out on adventures on the weekend or. Doing, she would take us to plays or museums, like find ways to do those things for free or, or cheap to give us a lot of cultural experiences.
And it just adventures around town. I just don't remember my dad being a part of any of that. And it was like, we were all relieved at some level if he wasn't around. But he was also the primary caregiver because he was a truck driver, so he was only gone a few days a week. My mom worked outside the home and then would homeschool us, like, in the evenings.
But so my primary caregiver is the one that I perceive as being highly irritable, doesn't really want us around, kind of aggressive toward us, and my The person I want most in my life is the person who's out of the home. I had a lot of anxiety, like, she's not going to come home. I, I thought, I think as a kid, I thought it was going to be like a car accident or a something like that.
I think as an adult, I can look back on that and say some moms just don't come home. You know, like some dads, it's too difficult. The marriage is too hard. Raising kids is too hard. And they just don't come home. Abandon their family. I think I was really scared. She would walk off and not come back to the situation.
So I had a lot of anxiety. It's been healing as an adult to think back and be like, wow, my mom always came back home and re entered into kind of a difficult situation. But, so that was kind of the dynamic of our, my parents marriage. And then, yeah, so they announced at a family dinner that my dad, because of this reconnection with this, old flame in a sense, um, was deciding to leave the family.
And so my mom made it clear she was willing to, wanted to work on it, figure it out. And he was not so. Okay. Thanks for sharing. And yeah, I'm so sorry for what you went through and it sounds like you were really attuned to kind of what was going on in the home. I know some people that kind of have an idea that something's off, but they don't really know the details cause he has the parents, you know, maybe keep it under wraps or whatever, but it sounds like you were, um, um, Kind of in tune with what was going on.
And, um, when did you find out? I'm curious about the second marriage. Was that something that came later in life or when, how old were you when you found that out? We, it was when my dad's dad was dying. So passing away or he had passed away, but we were all over in that other state and looking through different things at the house.
And so I was probably 13 or 13. So this was a few years before, and he showed us a picture of his, I didn't even recognize him, but it was with my mom, she was also there, and she showed, they showed a picture, and they're like, oh, this is your dad, and it's a wedding picture. And I was like, but that's not mom.
And my first question was like, is my older brother actually ours? But I said it in sort of a hopeful way, because he and I never got along, like my older brother and I always were at odds. So, our first, that was my first recollection that, oh, he'd been married before. I don't remember feeling strongly about it.
They didn't say what had happened. He had done the same thing, in essence, to his first wife. They didn't have any children. So, I didn't get any more details, but it was this very fascinating realization. So, your parents aren't, they're much more than you know them to be, you know. Oh, I hear you. And, uh, that makes sense.
I guess at this point in life, I'm curious, kind of drilling into this whole second marriage thing, um, have your feelings changed over time? Has that been kind of an impactful thing, or maybe not so much? So now my dad's been married and divorced three times, because he married the third woman, basically.
As an adult, I can look back and I see my parents with both More clarity and more grace clarity for things that were negative grace for things that were well grace for things that were negative as well But you know I do see my parents as all people are Dealing with whatever the tools they have in their toolbox from their parents marriage from that from how they were raised from their faith Background, whatever So, you know, someone who's been married and divorced three times, he's looking for something.
He wants something, whether it's thinking the next connection will be better than the one you already have at some level, or just being easily turned, your head being sort of easily turned to temptation, sexual temptation, things like that, whatever those things were. I think for sure it's, it's very impactful.
Um, my mom being the marriage that had children. It's kind of a convoluted story, but there was a, a different woman. There was an abortion. So, so I have like a half sibling that is that passed away, but we're the only children, you know, so that my dad has. So that's an interesting dynamic. So we sort of feel like you're the primary marriage and they were married for like 25 years.
So his longest marriage. And so there's so much investment and so much that I would say in my head, this was very worth keeping and fighting for. He only realizes this in hindsight. He, I would say if he could go back in time, he would a hundred percent change his behavior or have wanted to stay. I think that's one of his biggest regrets in life.
And I want to say too at the onset, I feel like I have a good relationship with my dad. And, um, I'm a Christian and our family, we were raised Christian. That's very important to us. I would say he really does demonstrate. Now more of, you know, what Christians call like fruit of, of someone who is living a Christian life.
It's kind of slow. It's kind of here and there, but it is kind of neat to say I see more of that now than I think I ever saw growing up. So I'm really thankful for that. So I feel like I'm kind of, it's kind of nice to be able to talk about my dad as sort of a past self. And, and, but to say it in the sense of I have forgiveness for him and I think he is trying to live in a way that's more faithful now, even with those mistakes in the past.
Yeah, no, I hear you and the grace and the transformation. Those are two words that come to mind when you share all that I love that you gave your parents grace because I think that's super important I think there is a temptation to fall into being very bitter Very angry holding on to unforgiveness when it comes to you know mistakes that our parents made and so it is helpful to see that Well, they're human and you can love them through that.
And at the same time, as I know you'd say, we can still say, well, the ways in which they hurt me or they neglected me, like that was wrong. That shouldn't have happened. But at the same time, like, no, I love my mom. I love my dad. And, uh, yeah, I wouldn't trade them for anything. Honestly, I wish things were different, but I love them.
And it's cool as well to see the transformation of my parents lives as well. And so that that's beautiful to hear. And I think that's hopeful too, because a lot of times what I've noticed in the young people that we work with is we worry a lot about our parents. Um, yeah. almost like disproportionately.
It's, it's some people from the outside looking in, they kind of see it as this odd thing. It's like, well, you have all these like wounds and problems associated with your family and your parents. Um, yet at the same time, you have this like deep concern and love for them. No, I'm not saying everyone feels this way, but I I've noticed that.
And so, um, we, we want, we want well for them. We want them to, even if there is some hurt, even if there is some unforgiveness, ultimately, I think we, we, we do want the best for them. Um, have you noticed that as well? And maybe people, you know, who come from broken families? Yeah, it does seem to reverse the parent child dynamic in some ways.
A lot of times, it seems like then the parent will choose one of the kids to start confiding in more. I don't think, I think my mom was pretty good about that, not doing that to us. We had a faithful church community that we were always a part of, even when my dad chose to leave. So I think she had people she could turn to that were appropriate to confide in and to share really hard things with.
Um, I've noticed like my dad doesn't have a ton of relationships, not super involved in church. And so it's. It's almost like he tries to talk to me like that in some ways, which is not my favorite thing. It's not, it's not like the role any kid wants to be in. And maybe that's harder if you're older, maybe because you're more the appropriate age where typically You're raised by your parents, and then you become an adult, and it can, it, it changes a little bit into more of a peer relationship.
You have more experiences, now you know what it's like to pay taxes, and you know, all the things your parents might have joked with you of, you know, when you pay taxes, then you can do this or that. It's like, well now I pay taxes, and I drive, and I know how to do all these things. And so it comes more of a like, a little bit more of a peer thing.
But I think that gets either accelerated or jolted in some weird way when there's a divorce because I don't even know how to explain why. I think my parents were pretty good about that though. Um, my, my mom did a good job of encouraging us to go stay connected to my dad. But it wasn't like, tell me everything your dad's doing.
I can't believe your dad did this or that. You know, she was not. Using us as an outlet for pain or her thoughts about him. And he wasn't doing that in reverse. So I am thankful they were both acting, remaining the parents in that situation, even though you feel a tension. And one of our parents was always alone for one of the holidays until my mom got remarried.
So that's very, my younger sister, very, it feels very stressed by that. Well, if we go here for this part of the holiday, this parent's going to be alone. But it's just hard. You feel really sad and bad for them. And some of it's like, this is the natural consequence. Even when we've forgiven each other and we get along great, we're not spending every holiday all together.
That's a consequence of what? Yeah. No. And I, I, every holiday I feel that like pit in my stomach when it comes to like, well, dad's alone now or mom's on this one and it's not an easy thing to go through. I agree. So yeah, no, I think, um, totally makes sense what you're saying about the, uh, I know psychologists call it like triangulation or, um, some people call it like spousification more like that.
Yeah. I think the way I've heard it explained and the way I try to talk about it is, you know, Mom and dad, like they have very real, like emotional needs and they're going through difficult things and they need someone there to confide in and all those things. And so the children often like, we're just there and we want to, we love them, we want to help them.
And so they end up, you know, talking to us, which, like you said, is just not the appropriate thing. Even I would argue as adults, like they need other people in their life who they can talk to the, uh, talk about with those things. So it didn't totally relate there, but, um. Another thing I just wanted to point to was like your mom's example, you know, even though things were imperfect, even though there was a, there was tension, it was a really difficult family marriage situation to live through.
There was something that stuck with you, like you said, of her example of like, showing up, you know, coming back, you know, hopefully working on it and things like that. And I think that, um, The narrative in our culture right now especially is to, yeah, just kind of stay married and be miserable in those situations or get divorced and be happy.
And I think that middle ground of, um, the third option of, you know, you could work on your marriage and heal it and it can be better. I know in every case that doesn't happen. Um, but even if not, you know, absent abuse and extreme things like that, um, It is such a beautiful thing to like stick at it, to keep trying.
'cause so often what we've seen is, and that, I know there's research on this too, that if you stay at it, you know, and you get the help that you need, your marriage can like transform. Mm-Hmm it can become better. Like, it's not just like this downhill slope. Right? Yeah. We definitely would disagree that there's only those two binary options.
You know, stay and be miserable. Leave and be happy. If those things are even completely true, because leaving the marriage, I think there's some stats to say, you know, people might feel an immediate sense of pleasure or it's better now. But like, for example, my dad's third marriage, the one he left my mom for, it lasted two years, which is about as long as, you know, The infatuation kind of new stage can last, you know, according to some people.
So I feel like I've seen this or heard this anecdotally quite a bit is people will leave to start the new thing. Well, a lot of those problems just come with you, but now you're leaving a trail of brokenness behind you, particularly for kids who a lot, you know, when we post, so I've done before us, when we post different.
Articles or quotes about divorce will inevitably get some comments that say my parents got divorced and I'm happier now. Maybe because they're indicating there was a high conflict marriage. My parents fought all the time so now I'm happier. Or they, they don't like one of those parents for their behaviors.
Addictive behaviors or abusive or whatever. And even if that is completely true, that's an outlier. And you could be happier that your parents in a high conflict marriage aren't there fighting all the time. But I always try to present the idea, what if your parents had done the hard work of Going to get counseling, going to get sober, separating for a time, if there's a safety issue or something, separating to make sure there's safety, and that parent getting the help they need, and then coming back and being healthy and happy.
Would that not have been better than your parents getting divorced? Can we at least say, you know, there's a ideal, and adults need to do a bunch of hard things. To, to fix a marriage that's breaking or broken, but we jump, I guess our culture jumps quickly to there's discomfort. This is really hard and it would be better for me.
Don't my kids want to see me happy? And then thinking that's a good excuse to bail on the marriage. And so I have some close people who really walked through some of that considering are we going to separate? Or not, you know, cause like we can't do it anymore. And, um, but the children was the biggest consideration, understanding what that would do to their kids was their biggest consideration to kind of stick it out and really try to find help and support.
And I'm so thankful that in this instance of someone I'm close to, there's been some positive moves. So I just appreciate, I'm like, wow, that person sticking it out. And again, people of faith praying and being hopeful and seeking help has helped their marriage now is going kind of on that upward trajectory versus just leaving.
Wow. Yeah. No, I love that. And you're right. It is presented as like this easy option that will lead to happiness, which isn't true. It's, it's really not, I guess it depends on how you define happiness. If it's a lack of, uh, you know, discomfort, then that's a really dangerous road to go down. Cause I don't think you can do anything meaningful and Have a satisfying life if you're trying to just avoid discomfort.
So yeah, um, man, so much. I want to comment on, but I love the question you asked. And it's so funny. We asked that exact same question as like, would you prefer your parents to have like, wouldn't it have been better if they just worked through things and healed the marriage? And I think for a lot of people that aren't anything, that's great.
possible. Um, but it is like, I've seen it as well. And there's so many stories that I'm aware of, of people who've, who've done even though if I, even if I don't know them personally, so really good stuff there. Yeah. There's some other things I wanted to go back to as well. Like the situation that you were describing in your family, again, like your mom's heroic example, working through things, your dad's kind of tendency to kind of go where his desires led.
And I think that, It hits at the core of what you guys do at Them Before Us of like elevating these adult, adult desires over the rights of children. And so since we're at this point in the conversation, I'm curious if you, um, yeah, I'm curious to hear maybe a little bit more about Them Before Us. I knew I was going to wait for till later, but I think that's so relevant right now with what we're talking about.
So yeah, what is the work that you guys do? And then we'll transition back into your story. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Them Before Us is a nonprofit, international nonprofit. We have a lot of connections all over the world. that wants to reframe all these conversations, all these controversial topics, marriage, family, third party reproduction, which includes things like sperm donation, egg donation, surrogacy, IVF.
We want to frame everything from the perspective of the rights of the child. So, for example, when we want to argue a public policy issue about should surrogacy be legal or not, we want Instead of us arguing along typical, maybe in the United States, um, you know, blue versus red politics or this is about religious freedom or this is about my religion says you shouldn't do it.
We say, let's consider the rights of the child if someone is using a surrogate. Okay, where did the embryo come from? Was it a sperm donor, egg donor? Well, that's a violation of a child's rights. Because if you're being, you know, Quote donated from sperm or egg. There's a good chance. You're never gonna know your mom or dad Creating motherless or fatherless children is a violation of that child's rights We have the right to know the two people we came from that's the best way for a child to thrive is not only to know The mother and father we came from, but be raised by them, married in the same home.
We know that's ideal for children up until two seconds ago, when it became culturally advantageous to not do that, you know, since culture decided, Hey, you know, we're kind of going to say whatever adults want to do is great. And now here's the science that proves what we want it to say. Well, we had decades of social science before that.
That said, fatherlessness is a big deal. It's not ideal if children need adoption. That means you lost something. You know, so anyway, any topic then, so if we talk about divorce, if we talk about what should, how should marriage be defined, we are trying to train people to ask that question first. Does this impact the rights of a child?
And that helps us frame our answers. And we've found a lot of success because it's really helping us stay away from religious disagreements. It's helping us a little bit, stay out of political disagreements, though, unfortunately, really only one side of the political spectrum in the United States. Is even open to conversations like this, which is the more conservative side, but it's, it's been very helpful because we're really trying to like, dig down to these most basic ideas, natural rights, biology.
This should inform our public policy and our law. And it's been very helpful because it really is, is undercutting a lot of the arguments about. You're a bigot or this is just about religion because we're saying, no, it's not. I'm just talking about the biology that this child has a mom and a dad and has rights.
Beautiful. I love that. And I know you guys do, um, work on public policy. You do a lot of different interviews and things like that. What else specifically do you guys offer? We're just finishing right now a small group curriculum for churches. So if you have a church community group, that kind of thing, we're going to have a workbook and seven sessions that people can walk through.
It'll go through each of our chapters. In our book, we'll talk about surrogacy. Here's what the data says. Here's the them before us argument, and then we'll connect it to scripture and the Christian ethic. So that's really exciting. We have a documentary that's being worked on. If you saw the, this is a woman or what is a woman documentary, um, it'll be similar in style, just in the sense of we're trying to boil it down again.
What is a child? Is it, is it a, just, it has rights. It's kind of a thing that can become a person one day and it'll eventually have rights when we say so. Or is it a human being with unique value and that has rights. And so we're going to have a lot of different interviews with experts and talk about what is a child.
We are developing a human resources package or basically a way to go to. an organization and say, here's how you should frame a child friendly human rights package. Or sorry, healthcare. What is HR stand for? Human resources package. Sorry, not human rights. HR. Nice. That's good. That's like a, um, It's kind of like both, right?
But so for example, these big companies are giving you money to go get an abortion out of state. We would say to a company, do not offer that. Offer an adoption credit. You know, offer, offer counsel. Offer if someone has an unexpected pregnancy. Offer, um, Different things they can do to, to write off the need for diapers or, you know, things that if they need marriage counseling, you should offer a credit for marriage counseling to your employees.
And I don't even know all the details of what's inside there because I'm not within the HR sphere, but it's basically the idea to present companies. Here's these alternatives. We're not helping people do. IVF and surrogacy and, and redefining infertility just to mean whoever, whenever. Because, you know, California has a bill that's redefining it.
So I'm a single woman under California's new bill. I can be considered infertile and get state benefits to go get a sperm donor, et cetera. So, or, you know, same sex couples can be redefined to be infertile. And this project would help companies not use those kinds of benefits that violate the rights of children, but frame benefits that are helping promote family marriages, And if you are truly infertile and cannot have children, here's the ways that you can go about helping a child, adopting, and things like that.
So good. Thanks for kind of breaking that down. And I know some people listening right now might feel like an objection to some of that. And I would just offer two things. One, Don't children deserve to be protected? Don't children deserve to be protected? I think so. And, um, if they do, like how so? And I think that's where the second question comes in of like, um, if you disagree with this stuff, why don't you hear them out?
Hear out them before us, listen to their podcast, check out their book, their resources and see, you might agree with, you know, 80 to 90 percent of it. Um, and then on those maybe 10 to 20 percent you don't agree, um, look into it. Like, I think it's intellectually honest to. Go into those areas where there is some disagreement, because I know these are hot topics.
I want to acknowledge that from the outset. And, uh, so, but I appreciate you going through all that and kind of transitioning from there back into your story, this whole theme of adults putting like their desires, their quote unquote, happiness over the rights of children, um, is something that happens all the time in various areas.
But of course, in this conversation, we're focusing on the area of like divorce and, you know, separation and broken families. Bye. One thing that, um, you made me think of before too, was, uh, John Eldridge, the author, he, um, talks about this, uh, phenomenon. I was just thinking of your dad's kind of tendency towards, you know, these flings and stuff.
Um, this phenomenon John Eldridge talks about of the woman with the golden hair, where, you know, you have someone, he just explained this experience where he would see these like blonde haired women, and he would feel like this pull on his heart of like, Oh, they're going to solve all my problems. They're going to take away all my pain.
They're going to bring me the, you know, the happiness that I deeply long for. Um, and he just goes into saying how it can be such a lie. And we're, I think so many of us, even if we're not at that level of like, Hey, I'm just going to leave my family and go run off for this woman. Um, we experienced that whether male or female, we experienced this like, Oh gosh, I think this thing will, will offer me all the happiness that I long for.
And you touched on this before. Well, but, um, I, that image has always. With Eldridge. And on that note, I'd love to hear if you have anything to add to that, but I also want to hear, um, just, yeah. How else the breakdown of your parents, marriage, your family, their ultimate divorce affected you. Yeah, I think.
Actually, that kind of idea, so seeking after, looking for something that will satisfy you, is ultimately why I was able to have so much forgiveness for my dad. So, part of growing up for me, I think a lot to do with the dynamic I saw of male and female. I had a lot of gender Confusion. I wouldn't say dysphoria because it wasn't like a diagnosable thing.
I just thought, I was a Christian as long as I could remember, as early as I could remember, but I had a thought, God made me wrong. Like there's a switch somewhere up in heaven, on off, girl boy, whoops, he did the wrong one. I'm in a girl's body for some reason. I just think, in a child's mind, You feel discomfort, or you feel a sense of here's the interests I like, or I prefer to wear this kind of clothing, I like to wear pants versus dresses, and still do, but you start to, you see these things very, it's very binary, well, my brother likes doing these things, and wears these kind of clothes I prefer, and he's a boy, and my sister wears these kind of, she was a lot more girly, and like dolls and all this stuff, And I prefer this way.
So I must have been made wrong and was probably supposed to be a boy. Well, what am I going to do with that? Nothing. I could really articulate as a kid. I think because of my parents, I mean, my mom's working 40 hours a week and homeschooling, and I'm sure my parents are stressed about money and they're figuring stuff out.
You think all of these things as an adult looking back, right? Adults. I have so many things there trying to figure out why my kid is throwing a fit because she doesn't want to wear the dress or the church shoes. I don't think was a thing in there that like, this is a deeper thing we should talk to her about.
There just wasn't a lot of those tools or those conversations that I know of. In the eighties and nineties, you know, versus now, I think there's a lot of pretty good resources for Christian parents or more conservative parents. If your kids are saying or experiencing some of these gender things, there's a little more tools to deal with.
I don't think my parents really had those tools or the time to, to, to know, to like go into it anyway. So I experienced some of that. I experienced. Felt same sex attraction. So toward my peers again, my perception of male is scary and control and You know kind of I want to avoid and then my perception of women makes sense to me What's that which makes sense to me like if that was all you knew about men Like why would you want to go that route right and my perception of women is I love my mom and I do not get enough time with her and I'm terrified she's going to leave or something's going to happen to her.
So a longing mother hunger. And so it kind of makes sense as you go through and then feeling the gender dysphoria kind of thing. Then you go through puberty and of course those broken misaligned, whatever thoughts start becoming sexualized. Right? So, okay. So that's stuff I'm dealing with without really talking to anyone in the nineties or early two thousands.
And then. Fast forward and I won't get too detailed, but I, I had a relationship with a woman that really just started out as an unhealthy friendship and then kind of progresses, but this is why I had so much grace for my dad. I did not wake up one day and think, you know what I'm going to do? Get into this relationship that's like secret, and I feel shame, and it's, it's It's not healthy in any way.
It's not healthy even if you thought being two women in a relationship was great. It still wasn't healthy for a lot of other reasons that a lot of relationships wouldn't be healthy. I didn't wake up one day and think I'm gonna wreck my life and do all this stuff, you know? It was a million little decisions.
Like you're saying that, that the golden hair, the appeal of something, I want this kind of love. I want feminine love and affection. And instead of going about it in appropriate ways and seeking appropriate mentorship and love and care, I'm going to go about it in a illegitimate way, I would say from the Christian perspective.
And when I sort of woke up to that and it's like, well, I don't want to be doing this anymore, but how do I get out of it? You know? And then it was a very difficult. hurtful process of getting out of that, confessing, kind of living openly with people. I was able to look back at my dad and say, he didn't wake up and think I'm going to wreck my 25 year marriage, ruin my kids lives, abandon everything I've, you know, we've done.
I'm, it was, it was decisions he made over time, little decisions. the golden haired person you turn your head and you start versus catching it in that moment and like in the christian perspective i've been hearing this a lot more and thinking about it like mortifying your sin the idea of like catching thoughts errant thoughts and different things that are not truthful um crucifying those thoughts and and repenting of and whatever before they get to these further stages, right?
Because by the time you're already, you've already done the thing, you're already in the relationship, and then you wake up, well now there's this trail, yeah, behind you of ruin. And that's why God, I think, tells us, you know, guard your heart, guard your mind, guard your thoughts, fill it up with the good things, fill it up with the truth, because we really are likely to just continue along down the path we're not supposed to go without even recognizing it, it feels like.
So my own sin and brokenness. And being, and doing what I did not want to do, a relationship that I should not have been in, gave me a lot of grace for my dad. And realizing, yeah, we get here because a million little mistakes and lack of repentance were sin. Not, you know, you wake up and I'm going to ruin everything today.
Yeah. Yeah. No one dreams of that. No one's like, okay, I'm going to, you know, build this marriage and this family, have kids. And then I'm like, you said, gonna leave it all. That's my dream. That's what I want in life. It's like, no, no one dreams of that. So no, it's really well put. And Yeah, I, um, no, your struggles make sense to me.
It makes sense that it led there. It makes sense that, um, yeah, everything, everything that you said. And I love the point about like mortification you said, um, which is if anyone's not familiar, it's like a Latin word, which means like basically to die to yourself, um, like to kill things, like you said, and, um, it's so powerful.
Like it leads to self mastery. It leads to you being more in control of yourself, which is. One of the steps of leading like a really meaningful life, uh, and, and even a really joyful, like happy life too. And so, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's been super helpful for me as well. Thank you for sharing so openly and thank you for talking through that.
And one, two resources I want to mention, and if anyone isn't, you know, maybe resonating with you and wants to know like, Oh man, I need some help in this area of like maybe gender dysphoria, um, or, you know, same sex attraction, whatever it might be, uh, Jason Everett is one of my mentors. He runs, um, An organization and he has a great book called male, female, other, um, and that's like basically a Christian guide on, um, wrestling with all these gender issues.
So it goes into a lot of the claims of gender theory and just kind of talks to those logically. And then it also, um, just has a lot of compassion and some guidance for people who do struggle with gender dysphoria. And then he has some other resources on his website, which we'll link to and the show notes, uh, related to, you know, navigating same sex attraction and things like that.
And then the other thing I was going to mention is. When it comes to the sexual, um, you know, temptations and things like that, like struggling with unwanted sexual behavior, we did a whole series on this topic called healing sexual brokenness. And so we'll link to that in the show notes, but I think if you go to our website, restored ministry.
com slash, um, I think it's sexual brokenness. We'll, we'll put this in the show notes, then you'll see all the episodes. We did a whole series with these awesome experts and different resources that will help you navigate through those. So just want to make sure you guys have all the help that you, you deserve.
Um, but Jen, I'm just curious, kind of, if there's anything else you wanted to add about different struggles you had that stemmed from the breakdown of your family before we transition into kind of the hopeful part of your story. Oh yeah. Yeah. I would just say. Yeah. I agree. We just need, that's why I think I'm passionate about wanting the church to have more of these resources, and again, I think you mentioned a bunch of great ones, but there's been so many things written in even the last five years.
years resources that didn't exist. Or I didn't, granted we didn't have the same access to the internet and ability to find, you know, youtube videos and stuff. We're just starting out when I was more of a preteen, so it wasn't that I could go Google different things, but I think parents being the first ones to talk to their children, about, Sexuality and what does it mean to be male?
And what does it mean to be female? And correcting a lot of those childish thoughts that we think, well, I like wearing pants, so God must've made me a girl on accident. It's like, no. And what's cool is I feel. I'm in my mid thirties now. I feel the most me I've ever felt the most comfortable in, in my body and who I am as a woman now.
So I would not go back to being 13 for anything in the world because, you know, every, but everyone experiences those changes during puberty and those feelings and the hormones and all these things. Right. And whatever the family and friend dynamics are, everyone is experiencing those. It's just that when you have.
confusion about gender and then sexuality i think it then can just get really mixed up where if someone is able to say someone a feeling comfortable to share it at all it feels dark and shameful when at least at the very very beginning a little kid thinking oh god made me a girl on accident it's not like sinful thinking it's just childish thinking because we don't understand who god is and that he doesn't make a mistake you're a male or female for good you Righteous reason both are made in God's image from the Christian perspective, but an adult to say, Oh, no, that's, that's not true.
You can like this interest, that interest, you can dress, you can dress in this color, that color, but God made you a girl on purpose. It's a good thing. Here's all the reasons that's so good. He made your brother a boy on purpose. Here's all the reasons that's so good. We need both. And then continually help correct thinking that is off.
In a way that's very cheerful, it's not scary, it's not shameful, but little kids need to understand. Oh, okay, yeah, I thought this weird thing about God, but my mom, or dad, told me. But God's actually like this. So now I know that's not true. God made me a girl on purpose. It's okay if I like playing sports.
And I, we don't, we, some of us don't have that from when we're little, we have it now, or at some level, you're responsible for doing it for yourself now, because we're an adult, like Paul in the Bible says, When I was a child, I thought and reasoned like a child, but now you're an adult. So you need to think and reason like an adult, right?
So I don't even know if that answers the question. No, no, no. So good. And that's super helpful. And one of the things you made me think of too, that I learned from Jason Everett, who wrote that book, Male, Female, Other, as he says that, uh, in our culture, we, Claim that a woman, for example, is like someone with a female personality and any body when the opposite is actually true.
It's a woman is someone with a female body and any personality, which can run the gamut, right? You know, people who are maybe a little bit more like traditional masculine traits or more, more of a leader, more like, you know, physically fit, like things like that, that you'd normally associate with a man.
Like a woman can totally, you know. Have those characteristics, have those qualities and still be like fully woman, fully feminine. And so, yeah, it's, uh, it's, there's so much confusion out there. So I'm glad you're shedding light. The work you guys are doing is awesome. And so glad we can, you know, give people some resources as well.
But I'm curious, um, just honing in a little bit more in relationships, whether it's dating relationships or friendships, how did, um, your, Yeah. Everything that happened in your family impact those. Uh, I, I was remembering this this morning. My mom made counseling available to us, like offered to pay for it and help us get there and things like that.
When, when the divorce happened, I think I was the only one who did it. My brother and sister just processed it in different ways. But so I went to counseling I personally have really benefited from Christian counseling. It was also something I could do for free at the college I went to, you know, cause there's like students, psychology students that are counseling you.
And, but I think beyond that, so counseling was very helpful. I think just to process and, and talk things out. And just like I said to you, okay, if my dad, if my experience, my dad this way and my mom this way, and then I feel these things. A counselor for me was the person who said that makes sense, which I had never sort of drawn lines and thought, I'm not crazy, I'm not some psycho broken person that feels this way, it would make sense that someone experiencing some of these things might feel a certain way, and Christian counseling doesn't leave you at all.
Okay, it makes sense that you feel that way, because Christian counseling, and especially myself, because I am a Christian, still wanted to know, well, is the way I feel and want to act righteous, unrighteous, healthy, or not healthy? And then I think that's what the Christian ethic helps you do. Okay, well, it makes sense that you feel this way, but then we need healing, repentance, and healing.
New patterns of thinking, etc. So we can move from unhealthy to healthy, right? It's not just saying, oh, you feel that way. Great. That's who you are. So that's very helpful. And then I'm so thankful not only for just women who mentored me. I've had a number of women, like women have been my bosses in the jobs I've worked at.
I've done Christian and non profit work for most of my career, but I've had mentors, close friends, people I really did feel I could share deep things with and you feel like it's very dark and shameful until you share them out loud to other people who feel Experience something similar or they can really understand how you feel and offer you prayer and biblical wisdom and just it's kind of the light thing.
Right? So things I feel dark and shameful and I don't tell anyone can fester and grow and it's like, you know, cancer inside of you versus when you are able to share things and shine light into dark places. You start feeling like you're not alone. You start feeling like you're not out of control. And so I'm really thankful for that.
I'm also really thankful for a lot of great marriages I've seen. So like one of my mentors, um, in a job I worked previously, her and her husband, We're just fun to be around. They weren't not traditional in the sense of her sort of deferring to his leadership on something or saying, Okay, well, I'm gonna go check with him to see about this or that scheduling or whatever.
Okay, there was definitely a notion that they were checking in on each other and they were going to be in agreement about something. It wasn't It wasn't like she was just doing whatever she wanted and he would go along with it, but it also wasn't what I perceived growing up, where they, the guy just gets to decide whatever he wants, doesn't care what the woman has to say at all.
I started being around people, men and women who are married, and having a very different picture of marriage than what I grew up with, a very positive picture, like genuine love, affection, caring for each other, serving each other. You know, men who are after a party where everybody's hanging out at the house where the bunch of the guys are the ones all doing the dishes and laughing and having fun and women are just hanging out on the couch and chatting, not even a thing where it's like talked about or the woman saying, can you please do the dishes?
That the husband deciding to do it and the guy friends just standing up and doing it. Things like that, that really start shaping your view of marriage away from just what you experienced growing up. I think is so important and I'm really thankful for. Beautiful. Yeah, so mentorship, close friends, and obviously a lot of my friends got married as well.
So then you're with your good friend. And their husband and their kids. And so that's a fun, cool picture too. You see the good and the bad you, I had one counselor that said, just because someone's marriage might be bad or having a hard time, doesn't mean the institution of marriage is bad. And I thought that was really good because yeah, everyone has difficulties or difficult seasons, but I still can honor and, you know, I still advocate for this institution as a good institution.
God honoring good for society kind of thing, even though I'm not married. So no, so good. Thanks for sharing all that. And everything you said sounds super helpful. And I've found so many of those things helpful in my own life. And I've heard that, uh, you know, from a lot of people who've who've been down through the experiences that you and I have been through.
I am curious when it comes to, yeah, just the transformation you experienced, you explained a little bit about this, but you know, you were kind of in this dark rough spot and now you're in a different spot. Uh, contrast that a little bit for us. I know your life isn't maybe perfect now, not no one's is, but, um, how is it different now than it was before?
How is it better? Yeah, I think growing up and, and feeling these feelings of gender stuff, same sex attraction, and not feeling like I had any place to go with it other than keeping it inside my mind. And I think a lot of building up, well, if I could just have this relationship with a woman, Then I probably would feel happy or maybe that is what I'm supposed to be doing or made for or whatever.
While my Christian ethic did, I would not say that or think that was true. In essence, I was wondering if that was true in my mind. Because it's all just kind of dark and locked up in there, which I think gave ground, you know, fertile ground for sin and desire, et cetera, to grow into a relationship. Then I find myself in with that woman that was not healthy and not good.
Okay, so all that getting Smashed apart and then confessing things to a bunch of people. Okay. So you thought this was just this friendship. Here's actually what was going on Here's all these ways I lied to you and was not being truthful. Here's all these things I think and feel I think it took a lot of the power away from it to be honest I definitely have never felt like it's this big thing.
It's like who I am I've never used any of the LGBT ways to like label myself. Like none of that has been meaningful to me. Rosaria Butterfield, if any of your listeners have heard of her or want to look her up, has been very influential in my thinking around sexuality, really great, uh, thinker and, uh, Author, and it's just been helpful because it, it makes it not as big of a thing.
Um, but at the same time, there is a sense of having to be on guard. Like you said, it's the, the golden hair lady. I think the, the problem is God really has to help heal the mother and the father wounds. For anybody, whatever combination that is, whatever it leads you to. Um, or we're going to get caught in those same patterns over and over again.
So for me now, it just means I'm a lot more upfront with people. And there's definitely a handful of people that know everything about me, where I can call them on the phone and say, can you pray for me? I feel this or I'm thinking this and that's really helpful, but and really necessary. Um, yeah, yeah, because if you don't have people that know you or check in on you, like I've had to give people permission to ask, will you ask me this question?
Will you ask me this question? Cause otherwise I don't want to answer that question. And most people won't think to ask it or it's uncomfortable to ask it because it feels nosy or like you're going to try to judge you or think you're doing something wrong. So there's been trusted people. I've said, here's all these ways I want you to check in on me.
And then. I, I blogged about some of these things and processed a lot at Do Better Theology. So it was interesting, it was kind of in response to this other group that was attacking my former business, my former non profit, because they were saying, this Christian business doesn't like LGBT people, won't let them be volunteers, won't let them be on staff, and they just did.
A few hundred posts condemning my, where I used to work. And so when I no longer worked there, I was like, okay, well, I'm going to respond to all these accusations, particularly about the work. But then I started sharing my own, you know, this is how I feel. This was my experience when I worked there. Here's the people I got to talk to.
And it's very powerful in a sense, because in our culture, your lived experience. Or whatever is very powerful. Like that's a powerful weapon culturally and even things working within them before us, we will get people who are very irritated with us because. Well, you're, you have no compassion for people who are infertile, you know, if you're saying there's ethical questions about these different things.
And it's like, I can respond and say, I don't know if I'm going to have children. It's different because I'm not married and trying and not able to have children. I haven't had miscarriages. I understand those things would be very painful and hard, but you're talking to someone who also doesn't know if she'll ever be able to have children.
So there is a different level, I think, of being able to talk to people because a lot of the maybe more manipulative tools. Are not there when it comes to arguing about sexuality and things like that. Yeah, i'm trembling now, but yeah, so I just feel like god has done a lot in this is good building up What does it mean to be a woman a typical woman a book by abigail dodds?
Highly recommend if anybody Listening has has felt any of these things particularly about what does it mean to be a woman? And it's like your point. She's you know, people will say well, how how am I a woman and a business owner? How am I a woman and a mechanic like what would what should I do? And she's like, you just are.
If you're a woman, that's how a woman fixes cars. It doesn't matter if you're, you know, I'm really aggressive as a businesswoman, or I'm really meek as a businesswoman, so should I act more like a man or more like a woman? She's like, you can't. You're a woman. And if you own a business, that's how a woman owns a business, you know, so it's, it's like you're saying, it's, you put the body and the biology first, and there's ways, of course, there's a few things in the Bible that says women should do or men should do specifically, but just because it says women You know, it might say women should be gentle over here.
Then it also says like elders are supposed to be gentle and not quarrelsome and different things. So just because it specifically says women should, there's the fruit of the spirit and all these kinds of things. It doesn't mean men also shouldn't do those things in a sense. Abigail Dodd says all of the Bible is for all of women, just like all of the Bible is for all of men.
And then there's some specific things that are great to take as well when it comes to being married. Women, wives should do this. Husbands should do this. Great. Good stuff. Thank you for going into all that and just sharing your, your story. And before we close here, I'm curious, um, If you were to talk to your parents, if they were maybe even listening right now, what would you want them to know?
What would you say? I would tell my parents. I love and appreciate them for the ways they did sacrifice for us growing up. I'm thankful they were married as long as they were. We had a lot of stability that if they had gotten divorced sooner, we would not have had. I can imagine boyfriends and girlfriends coming in and out.
Which house are we going to? Even just financially, the fact that they stayed together made it so we didn't, we never missed food on the table. We had family dinner every night. I, I can just see these positives and the stability that my parents gave particularly my mom, because she was willing to continue coming home.
And I have said this and would say that I forgive them for things they didn't do right, and that I understand and can have grace because of that. I also now know, even better, the older you get, the more of a sinner you know you are, and I can have compassion, like, we're only doing, we only, yeah, we have the tools that we have, and it's by God's grace that I'm as functional as I am, you know, I can't look back and say, I did all this, like, I'm great and fairly healthy and all these things, because I just figured it out, and you guys didn't figure it out, it's like, no, thankfully, I'm healthy.
My mom's influence in particular with, with faith, our church, people who mentored me, youth leaders, coaches, that's all God's grace to me. And so I can look back and just have compassion. My dad did not have all those same tools, but still he worked his job. He came home. He struggled a lot with mood and temperament and things like that.
But for the most part, we were safe and That's still adult sacrificing for you, you know, and so yeah, I'd want them to know I appreciate them for all the good things that I can see now, I forgive them for the things that were not ideal, and I think too, as an adult, I just want to make sure I'm taking responsibility for my own health and faithfulness, so as someone who's a Christian, I can't I can't say, well, I struggle with XYZ because you guys did this to me the rest of my life.
You know, at some level, I just need to say, well, what can I do to grow, to be healthier, to be more faithful? And so that's kind of where I've landed, I think, in my, you know, 30s. I spend a lot of the 20s going to counseling and trying to think through. What did you guys do to me? And then really you have to take responsibility.
And I've heard some people say you kind of have to parent yourself, but I would say from the Christian perspective, it's like allowing God, a perfect father, to help fill in those places that we're missing. And, and with Christian community and with the friends and families that you can surround yourself with.
Ask God to help fill in those missing spots and build, build you up in the ways that you feel like you're lacking. Yeah. No, I love it. Really good stuff. I, uh, Jen, thanks so much for sharing your story and for being so vulnerable again and, um, offering resources and things like that. If people want to follow you and find you online and, and then before us, how do they do that?
Yeah. So you can type in do better theology and I have a sub stack and an Instagram and then then before us. Really, you can type Them Before Us into any of the big social medias or into Google and you can find us. ThemBeforeUs. com is a great place to find kids stories. A lot of the, a lot of the difference with Them Before Us is we're highlighting the stories of the kids that have experienced these things because it's about them and their rights.
So I was from a surrogate, here's my story. So you can find all of that on ThemBeforeUs. com. You can follow Katie, who is our founder and president, who speaks on a lot of these topics. You'll find her. Um, what would you say to someone listening right now who feels stuck, who feels really broken because of, you know, everything they've been through and their family, their parents, marriage being a disaster, falling apart, maybe getting divorced?
Like what encouragement, what advice would you give to them in closing my biggest advice would be, um, To find someone to talk to so maybe I know Joey you guys have a lot of different resources for that for people to be able to connect with others, whether that's a faith community, whether that's, you know, Maybe someone in your family that's trusted to you, an aunt, an uncle, a grandparent, an older sibling, a good friend.
I would say find people to connect to and talk to about these things. We cannot process and do this alone. That's my primary thing. I think counseling is great, Christian counseling, but yeah, faith community and friendships that you can actually talk about hard things with people and And get a sense of compassion, not just get over it, but people who can talk through and listen to different things and encourage you, I think is number one.
Super grateful for Jen and all the good work that they're doing at Them Before Us. Go ahead and check them out. If you'd like, just search Them Before Us or you can find the link in the show notes. If you'd like to share your story with us, kind of like Jen did, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do it, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story Reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiological level.
It makes your brain healthier. Writing your story is actually healing as well. There has been so many studies that have found that people who write about these emotionally difficult events that they go through in their life end up being healthier, happier, less depressed, less anxious, and so on. Also sharing your story, not just writing it, not just thinking about it in a sharing your story with someone else who can receive it with empathy is also healing on a neurobiological level.
And then finally, if you were to share your story, because we're going to share it with thousands of people online, it's going to be able to help someone who's maybe going through something that you were going through and were able to overcome. And so if you want to share your story, the first step is just go to Restored Ministry.
And then the forum on that page will just guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and actually turn it into an anonymous blog article. And so if you want to do that, just go to restored ministry. com. Slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe, you know, someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.
Those resources include a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. And all our resources are designed to help you heal. from the trauma you've endured and build virtues so you can break the cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone you know, just go to restoredministry.
com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, take like 30 seconds to just message them and say, Hey, I just listened to this podcast.
I thought you'd resonate with it given everything that you've been through. I hope it helps. Like honestly, you will be surprised. How much they'll be grateful for you just doing that simple act. So feel free to do that now if you'd like. In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.
And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
