#137: You’re Not Doomed to Get Divorced | Samantha

If you come from a divorced family, research says you’re more likely to get divorced. But does that mean you’re doomed to that fate? My guest today says a resounding no. 

She and her husband, also a child of divorce, have built a 24-year-long happy marriage with 3 children. Her message for you? You can do the same. In this episode, we discuss: 

• How she’s overcome her fear of getting divorced and how marriage has actually been healing for her.

• How she felt her father’s absence as a young person and how she ultimately forgave him.

• How to become more confident and resilient or gritty

If you’re afraid of getting divorced, you want to forgive your parents, or you want to become tougher, this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

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Samantha: [00:00:00] My dad, um, he was an alcoholic.

Joey: Do you remember any particular situation or instance where you're like, Oh, wow. All my friends maybe have moms and dads who live together. And I don't.

Samantha: Some knowledge is just too heavy for children to just be able to bear.

Joey: What was most helpful for you when it came to healing and to growing into a better, more virtuous woman?

Samantha: I knew that there was a problem because everything that happened, I always thought was because of me, something that I did. You know, some, some fault that I had when you're in pain and you're suffering, it's not like you're saying, well, I'm going to make this poor choice now. Right? Like you're really just trying to survive something that feels really overwhelming to you.

Joey: I think so many of us feel powerless because we can't fix our families

Samantha: and we would get into a fight and I would just. I'm going to get a divorce. We're just going to get a divorce. And one day he said to me, Sam, I know that you get really angry, but it hurts me so much when you say that, because I never want to get divorced from you.

Like I'm never giving up on you.

Joey: Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a [00:01:00] divorce or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Samantha.

She's a devoted wife, mother, and joyful advocate for God, family, and community with over 20 years in communications and a commitment to volunteer work in religious education and youth ministry. Her healing journey from the unintended wounds of her parents divorce began when she heard a quote that said, The final battle between the Lord and the reign of Satan will be about marriage.

And the family. Recently, she completed coursework in human and spiritual integration and trauma informed care. Currently, she serves in public education where she witnesses firsthand the mental health struggles of students and works to find solutions that address the root cause of those problems, learning how to heal the wounds caused by the breakdown of family systems.

If you come from a divorce family, research says that you're more likely to get divorced, perhaps even two to three times more likely. But does that mean that you're doomed to that fate? My [00:02:00] guest today says no. She and her husband, also a child of divorce, have built a 25 year long happy marriage with three children.

Her message to you? You can do the same. In this episode, we discuss how she's overcome her fear of getting divorced herself, how marriage has actually been healing for her, how she felt her father's absence as a young person, how she ultimately forgave him. Really beautiful story. And then the resolution that all of us from divorced or broken families can experience.

And it doesn't involve fixing your parents marriage or solving all the brokenness in your family. And finally, she offers some tips on becoming more confident and resilient or gritty. And so if you're afraid of maybe repeating your parents mistakes. Painting what you saw in their marriage. You want to forgive your parents and you want to become just tougher, stronger, more confident person.

This episode is for you. And with that, here's the conversation. Samantha, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you here.

Samantha: Thank you so much, Joey. I'm so happy to be here today. Thank you.

Joey: I remember when we initially met, I was just so impressed with you and the wisdom you have and the way that you articulate that.

So I know this is just going to be more of that. So I'm really excited to dive into your story. Starting out. I'm [00:03:00] curious. What was life like at home in the years and months before your parents split?

Samantha: So my parents divorced when I was two. So I don't really, I think all of your memories kind of come alive after that two period.

So what my memory really was of my mom. You know, heading the ship on everything. I did not have siblings. So it really was just kind of me and my mom, my mom was the only child. So my grandmother was very central in our life. And so in so many ways where I feel that the family is really meant to be kind of that, you know, the balance of the mom and the dad, right.

It was kind of in our family, my mom and my grandmother, right. Um, and so I feel blessed that I was able to have those. Influences and that love, but also now, you know, looking at that all these years later, I can see that there was some stability that was missing just from, you know, not having my father around and being able to have that influence in my life.

Joey: Totally makes sense. Since you were so young, it makes sense that you have no memory of [00:04:00] what life was like before it. Have you heard stories or been told of kind of the. I don't know, level of dysfunction and what was going on prior to the separation.

Samantha: So it's really interesting. I don't know how many of your listeners have gone through this type of experience, but my dad, um, he was an alcoholic.

And so my mom, obviously when she married him, did not know that probably like anybody else. You know, he was drinking it, you know, it's a socially acceptable thing to do. But when they had me, um, they were in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, and they moved back to Pennsylvania. And so my dad was a professor at Millersville college here in Pennsylvania and just through kind of different things, I guess there were some maybe red flags that came up.

And so my mom, I don't know if she must've gotten suspicious one day, but she went to his car and she opened up the back of his trunk and there were just. All these empty alcohol bottles there. So the reality of the situation, I think hit her pretty hard. And I will say, I mean, this would have been, I was born in [00:05:00] 1969.

So I still think it was a time where really they didn't know what to do with alcoholism. Right. So what do you do with that in the family? You know, how do you maybe get counseling for that? You know? Um, and so my mom's really first response, she went into kind of that flea mode, um, just to just. Get out of the situation.

My grandfather came to get her. So when you ask what were my experiences like, it really was a lot of my mom trying to share the best of the situation and in time, give me a little bit more of the truth, but I will say my mom was always just so gracious and always giving my dad the opportunity to reach out and to, you know, to connect with me.

But what was so strange is because we had such a, you know, he was. Absent a lot in the very early part of my life that when he would tell me these stories, it was just so hard to connect to it because it's almost like he was reading them out of a book. I didn't feel that they were me. So it was like I was hearing them, but I had no connection to them, especially with being, you know, so young, you just don't really remember those, [00:06:00] but you have your photos, you look back at that and you know, you try to weave together that story.

But I think that's really hard when it happens at that age and you just don't have those common memories to draw from.

Joey: Yeah, no, that is really hard. And I totally get that kind of like almost looking at it as if it were another person that that story hearing that. So I understand that entirely. Um, so you were two when that happened, if you're comfortable sharing, how old are you now?

Samantha: So I'm 55 now. And I did want to just sort of say, just kind of hold that question for a second, because I've had a long time over my life to sort of, you know, kind of look back and look at things. And I think that today, you know, just the message that I really want to get across. To anybody that's listening is I had zero idea of anything when I was in my young adult phase, I didn't know what having a family meant.

I didn't know how to get to having a family. I didn't know anything. And through just, I think the restoration of my life through. The journey that I've [00:07:00] taken, you know, I'm sitting at a place where I've been married for 24 years. We have three children, nothing is perfect, but we are tremendously happy. And somehow some way, even though we had, cause my husband comes from divorce as well.

We had no model to really show us. The love that we had for one another just prevailed above all things, and we figured it out together. And that is really the beautiful message that can be of marriage is that it might not be perfect, but as long as you're committed to loving the other person and elevating them, you will figure it out.

And that's really just what I want to really be able to share with people today is just that hope that I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't come from a perfect background. There's all sorts of, you know, things that happened that were traumatic in my growing up, but you can figure it out.

Joey: Yeah, such a hopeful message and that's such a perfect tone for this interview because we need to hear that I think even so often, you know, we try to go deep into kind of the brokenness to help people understand it, put words to it, which we've heard and found is really healing, [00:08:00] but I think there is a danger of maybe getting stuck just in the darkness.

And so you saying that I think is so good and so hopeful. So I'm really excited to go deeper into that. I'm curious. So since you were two when your parents split, when did you kind of become aware that You know, things were not the way that they maybe ought to be within a family. Do you remember any particular situation or instance where you're like, Oh, wow.

All my friends maybe have moms and dads who live together and I don't.

Samantha: Yes, I do. It was probably in second grade. I went to Catholic school at the time. And so. You know, my mom would drive me up and drop me off to school. And, you know, I would get invited to different people's parties. And I would say, I don't know what year that was.

Cause I'm really bad with sort of the math of it, but let's say that was probably the mid seventies or so there still were a lot of intact families that, you know, um, that may have been when divorce started to kind of creep in and creep up starting at that time. But. You know, in my growing up, a lot of families were intact.

And so I started to look around and realize like, okay, well, so this is different than [00:09:00] what my friends are doing. And I think another pivotal time when I really recognized it, cause you see it at school, but you see it in moments, right? You see it at a party or you see it, you know, mom and dad going to, you know, a football game or something like that, but where it really, where family life really made an impression on me.

And I realized what was. Missing is we had a place that my grandmother, she had a friend that lived in this place. And so across the street, they had a family and I would go over and play with them all the time. And so I would stay over the night there cause they had a daughter that was my age. So, you know, you do the sleepover things and every Sunday they would get up and they would go to mass together and they would cook breakfast together.

And I just. Really saw what having a two parent household would look like. And I have no idea what kind of, you know, family they had because you don't often know that, you know, at that moment, but just that was when I had really that immersion of saying, Oh gosh, you know, this looks really different than what family life at my house looks like.

Joey: Fascinating. And did you then ask your mom questions or was it just [00:10:00] kind of this thing that was there that you didn't really think too much about?

Samantha: I would love to be honest and say that I did ask questions, but I think, and I'm just going to share this because I feel that this was a very real experience for me.

I think that when you're a child, you pick up on things. And I think that you don't necessarily always want to burden your parents with things. Right. So asking her why it looked different or why, you know, my dad wasn't around, wasn't something that I wanted to, even at that very young age, I didn't want to burden her with that.

And I will say just sort of as part of my story, and we'll probably get into this later, but my mom did remarry after that. So, you know, I did have sort of that other experience, but yeah, I don't think I asked her because I just think I didn't really want to burden her with. You know, maybe what I knew would be a hurtful topic to her.

Joey: I think so many people feel the same. And I know I felt that in a lot of ways, especially if there's been a lot of like drama and a lot of tension around the divorce. We so often just like stuff away our own brokenness, our own hurt. Because we just don't want to, like you said, rock the [00:11:00] boat or add more onto it.

And I definitely understand that. I think, especially as we grow older, it can certainly be like a barrier to healing. And so was there, we're going to get into this a little bit later, but I'm just kind of, if you tease it ahead, was there any moment where you kind of came to the realization like, no, I actually need to, maybe not with mom, but I need to talk about this.

I need to address this a little bit.

Samantha: Yes. Many decades later when, um, so there was something that a priest had shared with me. And again, I know, you know, our audience, we have different people in different places, but I thought this was really helpful. And he had quoted, um, one of the early verses from Genesis in the garden when Eve ate the apple.

Right. And so when Eve eats the apple, she's confronted with God saying, what did you do? And I always heard that in a condemning tone. What did you do? And it never occurred to me that a father who should be the image of the child's first image of what God is like, that there could be a compassionate tone to that.

So instead of shaming [00:12:00] the person for what did you do, this is your fault. It could be, Oh my goodness, I love you so much. What did you do? How can I help you? And that was really the first moment where I knew that there was a problem in the way that I was processing and thinking about things, because everything that happened, I always thought was because of me, something that I did.

You know, some, some fault that I had. So, uh, yeah, then I went through a period of time of trying to really unpack that and to relearn hearing that voice in the compassionate way that the father means for all of us, which is really from a point of love and mercy and wanting to just, you know, help us get back to our whole self again.

Joey: Wow. That feeling of kind of responsibility or feeling like it's your fault is a really common thing we hear with the young people that we work with. I remember a dad sharing a story with me. He and his wife were separating. It was actually the day that he was going to leave the home and it was just really difficult for him.

He didn't want the separation, didn't want the divorce. His son, um, was really [00:13:00] broken up by it too. And he remembers before he was leaving the house, um, trying to find his son, his son was hiding in the bathroom. And so he goes into the bathroom. And, um, the Boy looks at him and says, Dad, is this my fault?

And thankfully the dad like just wrapped him in his arms and said, no, no, of course it's not, it's not your fault. Like this is between your mother and I, but there's something so fascinating about that. I think like, especially as children, we, we do shoulder a lot like that. I'm curious if you have any thoughts or insight into that.

Like, why do we go down that path? And is there anything that you think young people listening right now need to know so that they can kind of unburden themselves? From that responsibility. Yeah, that's

Samantha: a good question. I would say being on the other side of the experience of having children and just seeing how my children have reacted to me and to my husband, we were actually just talking about this in our family.

We had the opportunity to go back and revisit some of our childhood friends. My, my children did. And one of the things that really was impressed upon my heart is children have this very limited time of innocence. And I mean, pure innocence where [00:14:00] everything in the world is good. And I think that. They intuitively know when something is off with their family and their love is just so pure and they just really seek to love their parents so much that I think that they pick up on that in some way, shape or form.

And I think that what happens is. They begin to just model that not really understanding that that isn't their burden to carry that is really for the parents to be able to carry whatever it is that they're going through. But so often some of those things, you know, you talk about dysfunction in the family or you talk about, I mean, in my situation, it wasn't really dysfunction.

It was just. Absence. It was total absence. And then it was, you know, two women trying to, you know, my mother, my grandmother trying to, you know, sort of fill in the blanks with everything. And, you know, again, I loved them, right. I wanted to help them. So I think that's where it comes. I think, and I think that's why.

You know, when we go on and we talk about children and any type of abuse of them, or just even [00:15:00] being in this situation, I know that it's not intentionally abusive, but they are so pure and they are so just good in that period of time when they're young, that it's something that just really easily can get exploited.

Joey: Yeah, no, it makes so much sense. And one of the ways I've heard some people talk about it is, you know, imagine like, like there's nothing you could do to make your parents marriage like amazing as a child. Like, like you don't have control over that. So in a similar way, there's really nothing you can do to destroy it.

Another analogy that we've often used, um, is imagine that you're in a place in the country, maybe like Kansas, where there's a lot of tornadoes. And you're building a home. And let's say that the builder, like, knows that there's tornadoes, and they need to make the home stronger to withstand those tornadoes, make it tornado proof.

Um, but they don't really take that into account, build the home not tornado proof. And then the storms come, and they rip up the house, it falls apart. The way we think of it is that the children are the storm and the marriage is the home. And so if the home is poorly built and they knew that maybe these things were coming, is it the [00:16:00] storm's fault or is it the builder's fault?

And not to cast blame on parents, but I think that's been helpful for some of the young people that we lead realizing like, okay, yeah, like, yes, children do bring stress into your life. It's not intentional. It's not something they. Cause, but it's just, it's a lot of responsibility to raise children. I know that now I have two, um, but it's never their fault if I, you know, were to get angry and, you know, say something that I shouldn't say or do something I shouldn't do.

Or, you know, if I allow that, um, stress that comes from, you know, just all the things that come along with being a parent impact our marriage. So I think there's something there that is instructive that our young people have found helpful.

Samantha: Yeah, I want to how I arrived at that thought process. I want to share a quick story with you.

I don't know if you had ever heard of Corey ten balloon, but she was a survivor of the holocaust. And she wrote a book that I can't now remember, but it was basically just about her experience going through the holocaust and you know how horrific that was. And You know, her family, um, they were able to, you know, hide people and help people, but the story that I'm going to give you, isn't that I just wanted to give you context for [00:17:00] it.

So she, she was in the, you know, she was sitting, you know, with all the, the aunts and the, you know, her mom and, you know, just sort of a very female, I wouldn't say this was well during world war two. So she was sitting with all of these women and there was a man that had come in and I can't remember if it was, you know, a relative or something like that, but evidently this man had a lot of facial hair.

And so it was something that she had not. She had not really seen before and I don't really understand the connection of it, but basically she was trying to ask her mom some questions about, you know, him maybe being a man or going through puberty or something like that, basically sort of a topic that was at that time, a little taboo and the mom deflected from it.

And so she immediately knew that there was. Something there, but she didn't really know what the, what was because everybody was kind of evading it. Um, and so she was on a train ride with her father and she, you know, loved her father so much. And she wanted to ask him about this particular thing. And so he said to her, he said, Corey.

I need you to go pick [00:18:00] up my suitcase. You know, they're in the train, they have like the luggage place. So she goes over to pick up the suitcase and she's, and he had all these watchmaking supplies in it. So it was very, very heavy. And she said, but dad, it's too heavy for me to carry. And he said, no, no, Corey, come on.

Just try to bring that suitcase to me. So of course, as any young child would want to do, tries to tug that suitcase over to him. And she said, father, it's just too heavy for me to carry. And he said, Corey. And so too, it is with some knowledge, some knowledge is just too heavy for children to just be able to bear.

And she was content with that answer. He didn't tell her this thing, but he told her that in time. When she was at a time, you know, that she was able to know about that, that he would let her know. And that was enough for her. And I think one of the mistakes we make with children sometimes is we think of them as being little adults and we pour a lot onto them that they just neurologically do not have the ability to be able to understand.

And it's too much for them. So that's where that [00:19:00] knowledge comes from is. And I tell that with my kids, when they were young, they would ask me a question. I would be like, you know, Elizabeth, that's a suitcase. That's too heavy for you right now. We'll talk about that, you know, one day later.

Joey: I love that analogy.

Wow. So good. And I think so appropriate. And I think instructive even for parents listening right now, how I think there is that temptation, especially if someone listening right now is going through a divorce, maybe they just learned about it or they just chose to go down that path. And they might feel like their child deserves to know.

And I think there is something that, yeah, maybe your child deserves to know, but they don't deserve to know maybe right now. And they don't deserve to know All the details, anything you would add to that for a parent listening right now, who's maybe struggling with that balance between like oversharing and not sharing enough.

Samantha: I think it is really okay to let your children know that there, you know, there is information that in time you will let them know, but for now they have to trust you and be satisfied with the I think that one of the mistakes I've made, um, is trying to avoid some of those topics with my, you know, with my kids, when we've had difficult [00:20:00] situations come up and they, they will trust you, they will know that you, you know, when you say the time is right, that they will let you know.

So it's almost as if you're answering the question without giving them that, but they feel that satisfaction that they've been heard because, you know, just in terms of our anthropology as human beings, right, all human beings want to be known. They want to be heard, they want to be seen and they want to be valued.

And so we just have to do that with our children in a way that is appropriate for the information that we're sharing with them.

Joey: I love that. And, um, no, I think that's a really helpful guiding principle that where you can make decisions and you might not get it perfect, but I think it's better to maybe Aaron, the side of caution, because we've heard just so many stories of young people who were burdened with like the details of infidelity and affairs, and just like a list of.

Maybe sexual sins and things like that, that like they were just so young. They didn't need to hear all that. And so I think that can do so much more harm than good. So I love your advice. I, uh, we just looked at the book, uh, the hiding place. Does that sound right? Okay. Yes. Yeah. I'm excited to look into that.

Like what a beautiful lesson I'm [00:21:00] going back to kind of earlier on. I'm curious, um, would you describe your parents divorce as high conflict or low conflict? And I could define those for our audience. If that's helpful. Uh, the high conflict would basically be maybe there's abuse or violence or high degrees of dysfunction and.

The problems were very overt. And from the child's point of view, obviously you wouldn't have been able to make this determination then, but they maybe even expected a divorce or knew that something needed to change. Low conflict, meaning that the problems were more covert, a little more hidden doesn't mean there's not problems there, but they're a little bit more again, hidden.

The children are typically blindsided by a divorce, even if they might have some inkling or idea that mom and dad are struggling. So I'm curious. Yeah. And from what you've been told since you were two. High conflict or low

Samantha: conflict. I think it was low conflict. I think that my mom did, it could have been high if some of the alcoholism and the things that went along with that, you know, were disclosed to me.

And I think even how my mom navigated that, you know, post marriage after divorce of just trying to be the sole provider, you know, for, you know, for her child. [00:22:00] But, um, I never knew that we, you know, it was really only when I got to be a little bit older that I knew that maybe, you know, from a financial standpoint, we didn't have as much as maybe what other kids had, you know, just never even really occurred to me when my dad wasn't around that, you know, this whole idea of how you might have shared custody or visits.

I mean, when I was. Two, they divorced and I did not see him again until I was 12. Um, so it was a really, really long time. So he was very, very absent. So I say that it was no conflict just because he was absent. Um, and again, I have forgiven him. He went through all of his own, you know, alcoholism ran in his family, all sorts of things, but it was just, um, he was very absent.

And I think that my mom did. A really good job of trying to provide the stability of not letting me know things that probably, you know, as a mother now I'm like, Oh my goodness, how did she navigate all of that? You know what I mean? She had to do everything by herself. So I, yeah, so I think it was, I think it was low conflict, but I think it could have been the other, but for whatever reason, you know, he was away and she just was able to kind [00:23:00] of keep the knowledge to me at an age that was, you know, appropriate.

Joey: I'm curious, a little bit of a sidetrack here, were you afraid of maybe becoming alcoholic yourself? Yes. Were you afraid of getting divorced? Like, yeah, talk about that.

Samantha: Yeah. So, um, when I really understood, because when my mom shared that with me, I think I was probably Maybe in my team. So I understood it, but I didn't really understand it.

And then there was sort of, you know, all these confusing messages of, you know, I think I got really scared when I heard about, you know, could it be genetic? And I really, I can't offer any of what the truth is about any of all that. I don't know enough about the study of alcoholism and, you know, kind of what they're seeing with that.

But what I can share is that for my father, I think that there were very real wounds. That he was numbing himself out to. And so for him, it was very much, you know, not based in a genetic disposition for it, but really just, you know, some generational wounds that, that he was dealing with. Um, and so for me, [00:24:00] when I finally felt free of that worry was when I realized that it wasn't just this.

thing that was lurking that could come and get me. Right. Because, you know, I, when I was younger, I drank alcohol. And so it was sort of always like, Oh my gosh, is this, you know, am I going to become an alcoholic? What's going to happen with this? And then, you know, you get to have teenagers, right. And you start to remember what you were doing as a teenager.

And then the fear really hits. Sue, but what I really was able to lift myself to was that for my dad, at least it was definitely very much just a wounding and a way that he had to cope with it. And he did. Um, he was able, I think when he passed away, I want to say he was 30 years sober. So he had, you know, found recovery in all of the ways, and that was a very big part of his story.

And, and he would probably be the first one if he were still with us to say that, you know, that those were definitely. I don't want to say poor choices. They were made because when you're in pain and you're suffering, it's not like you're saying, well, I'm going to make this poor choice now, right? Like you're really [00:25:00] just trying to survive something that feels really overwhelming to you.

Um, and that's really what trauma is, is just, you know, when something. Affects your ability to cope with something normally, that's when that trauma comes in and then the level of trauma and how it can impact you, the severity of it really has to do with how well that trauma is handled. And so I just want to go back to my earlier point about knowledge and what you talk about with your kids and when it's appropriate, you know, just again, being able to share things with them in an age appropriate way, I think is so important because if you are going through that traumatic experience, right, you want to just be able to.

Not ignore the thing that's happening, because if you ignore it, that trauma, even though it exists, it's going to be exacerbated. But if you try to help them walk through it in all the ways that you can, I think that you'll mitigate the, you know, the effects of that trauma.

Joey: I love that. No, that's great advice.

And what you said made me think of an earlier interview we did with Jay Stringer, who's a therapist, and he explained essentially what you explained. He [00:26:00] said that. Whenever we go through trauma, there's this experience of fragmentation where we just, we feel very broken and maybe even at like rock bottom, but emotionally we're in like a very difficult spot.

And that pushes us into numbing. We use some sort of behavior. For some people, it's alcohol. Other people, it's sex. Other people, it's maybe drugs or, you know, shopping or anything. It could be anything under the sun. And then after that, we have this experience of like isolation because we feel so empty. We feel a lot of shame about our behavior that we just kind of, Sit in our loneliness.

We don't bring it to other people. We don't open up about it. And then that puts us in a really difficult spot, which can then lead to more fragmentation, just kind of go around the circle. So that really resonated with me when I heard him say that, teach that. And that seemed to describe my life. And it sounds like in some way that describes, you know, what your dad was going through.

Cause like you said, it's not like you said, you know, wake up one day and be like, today's the day I'm going to do this horrible thing. That's going to impact my life really poorly and hurt everyone I love.

Samantha: I think exactly that's right. I think that shame is overwhelming. And I think that's why he was absent.

I mean, he told me [00:27:00] later in his life that he felt that, you know, and I often wonder, was he saying this is just a rationalization for him being absent, but I do believe that it was true. And that was, you know, I think it was better for me to stay away so that I didn't, because maybe that could have taken us into that high conflict situation, right?

If he had been around and, you know, there was just sort of all this disruption in our relationship, I really didn't have that. So that was, I do think maybe he knew that he was, Staying away from it, but I do think there was a big part of the shame of just not knowing how to, you know, address that or deal with that, um, or anything, but I am so happy to share that we just had such a beautiful forgiveness before he passed away a lot before he passed away.

And he was able to meet my children, um, which was, you know, amazing. So he was their pop pop and they loved him a lot. And it's just, again, it's another one of those things where the story as it. started didn't look so good, but it had a really beautiful, peaceful ending with, you know, with just being able to have that forgiveness and that healing before he passed away.

Joey: So good. And I do [00:28:00] want to shift to that in a second before we get there. A couple more questions. I'm curious. Um, was there a moment, you talked about this a little bit already, but there was there a moment when you maybe realized that the dysfunction, the absence, the divorce, uh, was impacting you negatively?

Like, was there a time where you kind of woke up to the fact that like, Oh, this is like causing me pain or to struggle in this way or that way.

Samantha: So I think definitely going back to that story of Genesis and knowing that I was blaming myself for a lot of things. And then I think a second piece of that actually was within our marriage and not anything that my husband was doing, but I came from a very female centric household.

I didn't know how to let my husband lead. I had never witnessed that before. So there was a lot in our early days of marriage of, you know, me being in the marriage, the way that, you know, what I saw in my family, which was my, my mom and my grandmother. And so really just trying to take the lead on that.

And so just spiritually, and I think just the way that we are made, I mean, men are. [00:29:00] I believe, you know, when they become fathers and when they become husbands, they are really meant to be that protector, you know, of their wives and to cherish them and to adore them. But I, and again, going back to parents being that first image of God, I didn't have that.

So I didn't know what it was like to be cherished, right? I just knew how to survive and how to cope with things. And so it really, I often tell him that I feel that even though I did not have that level of image of God. From my father, when I met my husband and he was able to provide that to me in a more, you know, husband and wife type of relationship, it really was something that began to turn in me just in terms of being able to have that level of trust that somebody was going to be there for me no matter what.

And I will say as a child, when you're growing up in a situation, one of the most important things is that level of protection that parents give to you. And so just having my husband be that protector of me was. was just something that really switched things around. So I [00:30:00] think that was sort of another piece of it.

When I was thought to myself, okay, I have some wrong beliefs on this thing. I don't really know what marriage is. I don't really know what I'm supposed to do in this situation. I only know what I experienced in my family. And he had similar situations with his mom and dad. And so he didn't really know, but I just sort of go back to the most.

Simple definition that was shared with me about love. And that is to will the good of another. And I will say that in our marriage, that was always, even though we got a lot of things wrong, we always willed the good of the other to the point where, you know, if we had an argument about something or we didn't.

Agree on something that we could come to each other because we wanted the best for that other person. So lots of mistakes getting there, but that was kind of the common denominator, which helped us work through it.

Joey: I love that. No, I could relate on that. We definitely have not had a perfect marriage, but it's, it's beautiful to see how you can still love in the midst of the struggle and then even.

You know, begin to kind of level up for lack of a better term and like get to a better spot where there's more peace and you [00:31:00] work together more as a team and it's, it's totally possible. It's beautiful when you get there. And there will always be, I think, difficult seasons within marriage, but the good can far away the bad.

That's, that's been my experience too. Before we get to kind of the healing and the happier part of the story where I really want to go deep with you. Um, I'm curious. Yeah. What maybe emotional problems? Bad habits, relationship struggles, especially in romantic relationships. Did you experience that you would maybe connect with the breakdown of your family?

Samantha: So I think one thing that I really struggled with, and I don't even know that I have an answer for it, but there was a lot of self sabotage for me. Um, and I still don't really know what that was. I don't know. And I still struggle with it. Um, and I think it really comes from Avoidance of things that are difficult.

Um, maybe growing up and things being difficult, maybe one way of coping was avoiding. And so kind of that earlier question that I ever asked my mom, you know, why my dad wasn't there, what happened, you know, that was an avoidance thing. I'm not going to burden her with that. So. Somehow, I think I learned that and the struggle [00:32:00] with the avoidance is, and I've been thinking about this a lot, I don't know where this message comes from, maybe the culture, but kind of alluding to, you know, when you have problems in marriage or problems in anything, it just feels, you know, bad, but.

When you avoid things, it's almost like you're trying to live completely for comfort because you don't want to feel that discomfort. That's why you avoid things, right? And so where in my life did I get a message that life was supposed to be comfortable? Because I mean, I could look at my faith and say, okay, when we look at, you know, what we read about in the Bible, we look at Jesus, certainly not comfortable, but even if I'm not looking at that and we look at the world, right, what is comfortable about the world, I mean, it's an extremely uncomfortable place, right?

So. That avoidance I think is what leads to self sabotage. And it's really not, again, it's not waking up one day and saying, jeez, I wonder how I can self sabotage my life today. It really comes from, I don't want to deal with that thing. That's hard and things should be comfortable. And so I'm just not going to deal with [00:33:00] it.

And then you kind of don't have that long term understanding that. Eventually it's going to come back, right? It's going to come back and it's going to burble up and then you're going to have to deal with like even a harder thing. So I think that when you talk about, you know, sort of emotions and problems that I've experienced, it really has been, and I did this a lot with my friendships early when things would get really hard.

I would kind of just go very inward because I just. Didn't want to deal with it. I just, yeah, I didn't want to. So it's avoidance, which leads to this feeling of, you know, this understanding of thinking that things should be comfortable and then doing everything to sort of, you know, avoid all those things, which is where I think for me, self sabotage came from.

So I don't know if that's something that's ever come up with your listeners before, but I would say that's been a big thing for me to struggle through.

Joey: If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story.

Reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level. It makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown [00:34:00] that people who write about emotionally significant events In their lives are less depressed or less anxious.

They're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the same path that you're on, but a bit far behind you, uh, to just hear your advice and to hear your story, since you're going through things that you've been through. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry.

com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restored ministry. com slash story, or just by clicking the link. In the show notes, I heard the story of one woman who she had been engaged three times and she broke off the engagement three times.

And these are not like bad guys. These were like good men from what she said. And I don't remember the details and each of the engagements. But basically, she was just terrified that they were going to leave her that, you know, It was gonna be a repeat of her parents divorce. And so I think self sabotage, especially in relationships, like you're saying, is something I [00:35:00] think that's so paramount in our audience.

But I wanted to push in maybe a little bit more on a struggle that were that's being articulated by a lot of young people today. And that is like, in order to not avoid, you need a level of grit, you need some grittiness, you need to be able to like, be able, like you said, to push into the discomfort. I'm curious, how did you learn that?

Like, how can someone more importantly listening right now become tougher, like have thicker skin, become more gritty? Because from what I've seen, yeah, like you said, the world is kind of an unforgiving place, and it's really important that we develop that skill or virtue, whatever you want to call it, because otherwise I think we'll feel powerless.

And so I think that's something again that a lot of young people are hungry for today. But how do you develop that? How did you develop that?

Samantha: So I think you have to reframe your thoughts. And that was kind of one thing that I had to do was, you know, so much of it was trying to avoid problems, but really where the growth is, is encountering the problem and working through it, you know, how they have that same only way, the only way through is through or, you know, something to [00:36:00] that end.

And I, I do think that's true, but I think it really comes from an understanding of who we are in our identity. And so this is kind of where I go back to sort of our anthropology for, you know, for what reason do we exist? And so, you know, in the way that I think about it, you know, we exist. To be able to, you know, again, from my faith belief, be that extension of Jesus in the world that we live in.

And so being able to know, love and serve him, but even if you're not particularly religious, just that idea of being able to know other people and be able to hear them and be able to meet them where they are on their journey. There are so many people that I talk with that I just. Just really enjoy hearing their stories and even if their stories are wildly different from mine, but just being able to find that point of connection with each other and being able to kind of work those things through.

So I think, you know, again, knowing why we're created, what purpose it is that we're supposed to serve. Um, and if I would go even deeper than that, you know, knowing why we're created the, the, [00:37:00] the, just the most important aspect of all of that is. You know, the family, because that's where we come from. And so everything stems from the family and we're not, you know, you had given a couple analogies to, you know, just, you know, having a family or, you know, the storms or how you were talking about it with regard to children and parents and knowledge and so forth.

But another really good one that I heard was we do not have any ability of the hand that we're given. If it's a poker analogy, right? We have no control over the cards that we're going to get. But we do have control of how we're going to play those cards. And so that is what I think is kind of, when we go back to what our purpose is, you know, nothing's going to be perfect.

And comparison is the thief of joy. It's so easy to look at this person over here and that person, and they have this and they have that, and everything's easy for them because they had money or whatever, but that's not where we are. We're in our situations and we are all called in a period of time. To serve the way that we can serve and to give what we can give and to live in the way that we can, [00:38:00] because that's the purpose that we're made for.

So we can't look at what others are doing and we can't live in the past, right? We can't live in lament of the things that we didn't have, and we can't live in the future for the things that we're afraid may or may not happen. The only moment that we can live in is this present moment and to be able to just.

Be humans and to flourish in this moment. And again, can't control that hand that we were dealt, but we absolutely. And I think that's where the resilience is, is that knowledge of saying, yeah, I could look at these things. I mean, there are deeper things in my story, other things in my story that are, you know, very harmful that are very sad, but also I can't change that, but I can change who I am today and, you know, how we have a family and how we have a marriage.

And I think that the common denominator to it is. That's seeking, right? You might not get it and you might make a hundred mistakes before you get to the learning, but the learning always comes through the mistakes. And that's how I feel that you are able to develop that resilience is to have that knowledge that even though this is [00:39:00] uncomfortable, the greatest growth is always through the greatest suffering.

Joey: So good. You made me think of, I was kind of asking myself the question, like, how have I become grittier, more resilient, tougher? Not that I'm at any sort of pinnacle by any means, I'm trying to improve on that metric all the time. But, um, I think one of the things has been just like doing hard things intentionally, whether that's like through exercise or any sort of like, Kind of self control, right?

Any sort of mortification I know is a word that was sometimes thrown around of like kind of denying yourself small things. I think that helped a lot. The other thing, um, kind of maybe the opposite side of comparison being like admiration, like looking at people who maybe who have gone through harder things than I've gone through, and then seeing like in spite of that, they still push on.

And they accomplish amazing things and beautiful things in their lives. And so there's something inspiring about that that I think has been motivating for me. But I love what you said too, just about how I think so many of us feel powerless because we can't fix our families. And we almost are tempted to [00:40:00] think that that's the resolution of the problem that we're facing.

And what I hear you saying and what I would also propose is that that's actually not the resolution. That's not our job. It would be really great if we can maybe help and influence that situation, help to grow those relationships and do our part of forgiveness and all the things that we've discussed and we'll discuss.

But I think all we can do is, like you said, play the hand that we've been dealt and figure out how we can then go out and build strong families, healthy families, healthy relationships. And whether we do that directly, You know, in our own marriages and families or indirectly by helping the people around us have like healthy marriages and families to me, that seems to be the resolutions, your thoughts on that,

Samantha: I would completely agree with you.

And I think that, you know, one of the things that I have heard. And I don't know if it's, you know, I mean, I can test it out in my own theory, and that is you can't be simultaneously angry and thankful at the same time. And that's why there's always such a focus on starting with gratitude because those two emotions can exist with each other and where you get [00:41:00] gratitude.

Is not when you go inward, right? That's where the enemy wants us is to be isolated by ourselves, but it's when you go outward and you choose to help that other person, whatever that way is. I mean, for me, I was sharing with somebody yesterday that I'm an assertively friendly person. I genuinely love to meet with people.

I'm encouraging, you know, I will find, you know, something good to say about everybody, just because I genuinely want to be able to connect with that other person. And so whether it's just a kind word, whether it's a. Smile, whether it's, you know, being, you know, more formal and volunteering for something, getting yourself out of your own world and helping somebody and somebody else's world is pivotal because it does build that heart of gratitude and you can't be angry and you can't be a victim.

You can't be any of those things when you are in that state of gratitude. So I totally agree with you with that. And I do want to go back to one thing that you said, which I think is just. Beautiful. Because one thing that I have been learning about that probably is a little bit more of a secular kind of a solution is the ability to reframe our thoughts.

There's a [00:42:00] really good book by the guy that is the author of the Doonesbury Scott Adams, I think it is. Okay. Yeah. Um, and so it's called reframe my brain or something like that. And I've actually shared some of this with my kids, because I think it's a tangible thing for them to be able to understand. And you did a beautiful thing.

You took the concept of comparison and you reframed that to admiration, right? So instead of looking at somebody and saying what I don't have, look at somebody else and seeing what they do have and admiring them. For what it is that they have persevered through, right. And being able to get that from him, it's beautiful.

Just being able to reframe those thoughts. And another one really has to do with comfort, right? You know, why are we thinking that this world is comfortable? Let's get into the thought of, you know, suffering builds through it. Right. And I'm not saying that that's what it is, but just make it okay. That that's.

Suffering, which we don't want to do that. There is goodness that comes from that. And so reframing is a really good technique for being able to do that. And I do highly recommend this book. I think it's a really just a good, a simple thing to be able to do to, you know, look at things that maybe you might be [00:43:00] struggling with and be able to reframe those thoughts.

Joey: Okay. I love that. We'll link to that in the show notes. Thank you for mentioning that. That's super powerful. I've heard good things about his content. And so thank you for mentioning that. Um, you mentioned assertiveness. Um, you seem to be like a very confident woman, a confident person. And so I'm curious, were you always that way?

And if not, how did you develop that confidence?

Samantha: Um, no, I was not. And I still don't think that I am. I think that what I'm more comfortable with is kind of that thing that you said, where I'm going to take steps every day to do that thing that's uncomfortable because it just builds who you are as a person.

But I think that where I came out of that and I got a little bit more of that assertive friendliness is when I was. really young. I was very shy and just really hard to walk into situations. And I don't have like this great theological or philosophical solution to it. I will just tell you that when I was 15 and a half, I lived in Orlando and I went to go work at SeaWorld.

And I only went to go work there versus other theme parks because they hired at the youngest, right? They hired at 15 and a half, whereas most other jobs were 16. And I really wanted to get a job. [00:44:00] But I was exposed to so many different cultures, you know, people coming in, I worked in a little ice cream shop.

And so there were people that were coming in, you know, you had a lot of people that were coming in from Brazil or just different countries. And so it really put me in an environment. And this kind of goes back to what you said about doing the hard things. I don't think if I had not done that, I don't think that I would have learned that skill of being friendly and, you know, putting myself out there with other people, but you have to expose yourself to those things to be able to grow those.

skills. And so I really did it because I wanted a paycheck, there wasn't any virtuous reason for it, but it was a wonderful thing that came through. And, you know, it still is a struggle. I'm not always the most comfortable when I'm in a big group, but I just find that there's always somebody, I think that a common denominator for most everybody is you can just talk about your family and.

You know, not everybody has a great family situation, but somebody is usually proud of something, whether it's a brother, a sister, or even a pet, right? There's always something that even if you have differences, people are generally proud of some aspect of, you know, their [00:45:00] family or their family life or something of that nature.

So that's really how I walked through that is doing exactly what you said, just exposing myself to hard things. I

Joey: love that. It's funny. I've noticed with people who come across as like very confident, which in my opinion, you do, which it's such a beautiful virtue and quality, they often think like, well, I'm not that confident or not.

So there's something like there's humility in it, which I think is really good. And then the other thing you said, I thought, well, that was really good was just how, like, in order to become confident, you kind of need like evidence to back up your confidence. And that's what I hear you saying. When you went through hard things, you kind of put your neck out there.

And I think that's maybe where a lot of people get stuck. I remember. I was, you know, especially in my early teen years, more shy. I remember just being terrified by the idea of getting up in front of a room and, you know, speaking and any of that. And, you know, now it's kind of like laughable. It's such a joke to do that in front of like hundreds of people now and soon like thousands of people.

So, uh, so it's definitely a blessing, but, but I think like you just got to start, you got to kind of do the things that feel a little bit outside of your comfort zone, a little bit out. maybe stretching you a bit. And once you do enough [00:46:00] of those, you have this whole, like, kind of stack of evidence that you can say, Oh, actually I just did this thing and I did that thing.

And now I'm, I'm still standing. I'm here. And I, maybe I could do this next thing. That's a little bit more of a challenge and I can kind of keep, you can keep like leveling up. So I think that's what probably I would say to my younger self if I were to go back and be like, you know, feeling insecure and unconfident, being like, this is how you do it.

This is somewhat of the path. It's not a maybe straight. path up the mountain, but, um, by taking those little steps and having that evidence to fall back on, I think is, is really good. That helped me in sports too, thinking through like even sports psychologists talk about having like a few just memories where maybe you were nervous or there was a big moment, but there was a lot at stake and you came through, you know, it doesn't even need to be like earth shattering, but something that you can kind of like anchor on to so that when you're in a difficult moment or a challenging moment, you can then say, well.

I got through that. I probably get through this too.

Samantha: I would agree with that. And I would say on the other side of it, because again, when you have teenagers for children, you walk through the awkwardness that is high school, right? [00:47:00] It's just that place where you just are like, so first of it is you're trying to figure out what your identity is, right?

So part of it is just who am I? And then the other part of it is just this, you know, extreme self consciousness that everybody is Sort of looking at you and judging you. And you know, the thing that I always tell my kids, which I know probably doesn't resonate with them, but just as much as you're thinking, everybody's looking at you, they're thinking that you're looking at them and to go back to the, you know, the concept of doing things is that I always go, how much is this going to matter to me in a week?

You know. Two months, six months, and generally anything that would prevent me from doing something, if I really look at it, it's probably not going to be anything more than a momentary, you know, discomfort, not something that I will remember really in the longterm. And so that's another thing that helps me push past, you know, that barrier that you might have of, I don't want to do it, but one other, just.

Suggestion I would give to your listeners. Um, one thing that I heard and I practice and I think it's true, but you were talking about doing the hard things like the self discipline, right? The thing that they [00:48:00] say is one of the greatest determinants of being able to push forward in your day and to develop that self discipline.

Is that first heroic moment of your day to get up in the morning, to build that schedule, right? Not to lay there and, Oh gosh, like I'll just get up. I'll scroll on my phone. Like when you say that you want to get up, you get up at that time every day, because at that moment you are conquering from that sleep state, getting into your conscious state, that first.

Right. Feeling of like, ah, I don't want to, you're conquering it the first thing in the day. And it just this kind of builds your momentum throughout the day because you did it and it's hard.

Joey: Oh, it is. But no, I love that. And I, one thing that's been helpful for me in the last, like probably six months is like, yeah, having that first part of the day, like very structured and, you know, obviously like a routine people talk about having more routines, but for me, it's going to the gym and having people that are kind of holding me accountable.

Like if I don't show up, they're going to be like, text me like, where are you? So, so that's been great. It's kind of like that, you know, when people talk about like linchpin habits or like kind of cornerstone habits, habits that are just kind of like [00:49:00] bedrock and upon what you can build other habits.

That's been helpful for me for whatever that's worth for our listeners. But so good. I could talk with you forever. I know we're getting toward the end of our time. So I wanted to. Kind of get into, um, maybe some healing tactics and tools and just like what was most helpful for you when it came to healing and to growing into a better, more virtuous woman?

Um, were there any books, podcasts, any other tactics that you use that really have helped you?

Samantha: So I would say that one of the first things that I did was I didn't. So there are a lot of different ways that you can sort of approach healing through therapy or, you know, what, whatever those paths might look like.

For me, I had heard priests talk about going to spiritual direction. And so it was something that I thought was just only available for religious people. I was like, Oh, spiritual direction. I guess they sort of tell you how to be spiritual or grow in your journey. I didn't know. And so I went up and I was Said, well, you know, what is this?

And he said, he explained to me that it, you know, is basically somebody that has been formed and educated, you know, in spiritual direction, and it [00:50:00] really was different from therapy and that they were trying to help you be able to see where God was God's discernment in your life. So again, this is a little bit more of kind of a faith solution for it.

But I think that regardless of whether it's. Spiritual direction or it's therapy for me. I wanted it to be that cause I am definitely grounded in my faith and wanted to know where God was leading me, but I think it is that developing of that self awareness, right? And so I think both avenues can do that because you can't really address anything until you're aware of it.

And the thing with. You know, living in this world is, there are millions of messages out there and a lot of them are really wrong. Um, and you know, I know even in my marriage, you know, some of that was, you know, just watching, you know, it's so silly. I feel like, you know, this is something that would have been said a long time ago, but you know, it is the messages that you see in movies or that you, you know, you might read in a book and it begins to form what your beliefs are of how things are supposed to be.

So I think that one thing that's really important [00:51:00] is to know that anything that is out in the culture, it is a message, you know, you might not be picking up on it, but it is a message. And so you need to really be evaluating where does this belief that I have come from? And is it true? You know, is it a principle that I want to build my life on?

Um, because I think that, you know, principles are an important. Architecture for building our lives. What are our core principles? And I'm going to give you one that's been an important one for me. Um, and this came from ST thomas. And so, um, I'm going to paraphrase it, but basically, um, the way here, let's see if I have it and maybe I can read it.

The principle is whatever is received is received according to the mode of the receiver. So to put that in a very layman's terms, it's basically me saying, um, I'm responsible for what I say, but Joey, you're responsible for what you hear, right? Because how you hear me, how I come across a lot of that is based on what your belief systems are, right?

And so, so for me in any relationship, [00:52:00] Just trying to get to that place of, you know, I know that I am good intentioned, um, and hopefully in a relationship that person understands that I'm, you know, good intentioned, but at the end of the day, being able to be cognizant that people can hear you through a different way than maybe what you intended because of their beliefs, the way that they are brought up.

So it's kind of like, to me, a secret decoder of how do we get things so wrong? Sometimes it's because. You know, we're all formed differently. And so the way that we're formed can impact the way that we receive information from other people.

Joey: I love that. That's really helpful. And I think like within that, the lesson I'm learning from you is with the people who have kind of proven themselves to you, who love you, like we should assume the best intentions.

Um, it doesn't mean they're always act. From those best intentions, but we should kind of give them the benefit of the doubt in those moments, which I think is so helpful, especially within marriage, because there's so many chances for missing each other and assuming maybe that they're not on your team and they're, they're, [00:53:00] you know, trying to hurt you or something, which is, you know, usually not true.

So I love that. Was there anything else that was really helpful that you would want to impart to everyone listening when it came to like your growth and healing? It sounds like, I did want to ask you, feel free to answer that, but I wanted to also ask you like how marriage has been healing for you, because you've talked about that a little bit.

I would love to hear a little bit more about how has marriage been healing?

Samantha: Yeah. Marriage has been such a gift to my husband and I, because we really have been able to work through things together. And again, with that belief that we are willing the good of the other, when we do have those miscommunications of things, you know, I mean, he's been such a steadfast rock for me when we first got married.

Um, we got married in 2000 and we always joke, cause I can never exactly remember it. 2000. And I should be able to remember that cause it's an even number. Um, but we got married in 2000 and by April of 2001, my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer and she died three months after that. And that, I mean, just hearing a little bit about my story and knowing how much of a matriarch she was to me, I felt like [00:54:00] I had been sucker punched.

And so we had a lot to deal with. I mean, we had not been married a year yet and, you know, this whole person that was the center of my world was, you know, was removed from me. So I don't want to say that he had to prove himself to me because I loved him and he didn't have to, but he really was my anchor of stability during a time that was completely, I just felt like my, my true North had been removed from me.

I just really didn't know where to look. I mean, my mom was everything to me and I got so much from her just in terms of her love and, you know, just advice. She was a living memory of me, right? Like she's a part of me. And so my mom has passed and my dad has passed. And so some of that living memory, because I'm an only child, you know, it gets really diminished, but being in a marriage with my husband has given me the identity of what we're really called to do, which is man and woman are meant to join together as one flesh.

You know, we, we have our families of origin, but really, you know, those are behind us. And this is really where the message of hope is, I think for the [00:55:00] listeners is again, Can't do anything about those families of origin, but we can play that card really well when we're, you know, with our person, with our, in our marriage, our, our spouse.

And so really just being able to come together and another definition of marriage is that we are constantly being like iron sharpening iron. And the purpose of marriage isn't to get a house. It's not to get a dog. It's not to, you know, be able to. You know, put all of your pictures out there it's to sanctify one another.

And if I want to use a less preachy word, it's just to make each other the best versions of ourselves. And there is really no other way to do that other than with somebody that, you know, that you are loved and that you're committed to. And even if by chance you get into a marriage, you know, and it doesn't work out that way, you know, God will make straight every path that you have.

I don't feel that I can make any mistakes because not, not that I don't want to ever try. Like I try to live a virtuous life, but I don't let myself get too hung up on the shame that I heard as the earlier version of myself, because I know that I'm [00:56:00] seeking to become the better version of myself. I'm seeking to that virtue.

And so I know at the end of the day, whatever mistakes I've made, if I am genuinely. You know, humble about them and I'm sorry about them that it will be worked to a greater good. And I have that confidence and that belief that, you know, that that is the plan for me. That is the plan for my husband and for our family.

Joey: Love it. Two other questions. How did you come to forgive your dad? You, you mentioned that before and I wanted to go back into it. That's one part. And the second part is how did you overcome that fear that you had of Divorce and maybe repeating what you saw in your parents marriage.

Samantha: The question about my dad, about how I came to forgive him, it's really ironic in the sense that I came to forgive him in the time where we were probably in the period of one of our greatest fights.

Um, my dad, you know, again, the mode of the receiver, right? And so sometimes the way that he would hear things that I said to him came from his brokenness. And so he would hear something in me that was. Not at all what I intended it to be. And so there'd be this [00:57:00] misunderstanding. And then of course my brokenness would be like, well, how dare you say that?

Like you left, you know, like, sorry. Um, so I don't remember specifically what the fight was, but he had really gotten very angry at me about something. And. I had committed that I was going to go visit him before this fight had happened. Um, and he remarried. And so I had told his wife, you know, I'm going to be here on XYZ day, you know, cause they lived in Colorado.

I should share that. I live in Pennsylvania. They lived in Colorado. So I had to actually go take a flight to go see him. Um, and I committed to being there this day and I said I would do it. And we had this fight and it was terrifying, but gosh, I just knew. That if I did not do this hard thing, remember that thing that we talked about doing this hard thing that by.

Any other reason I would have been right not to go see him right in the world standard, you know, he had hurt me and it would have been forgivable for me to not do that really hard thing to get on a plane by myself, [00:58:00] go get the car, go drive to them, right? Go see them knowing that my father was. Seriously angry with me, but he was dealing with, um, some Alzheimer's and I, I didn't really know, you know, I didn't know, you don't really know what that disease, how long somebody is going to, going to have with you, whether they die physically or whether they just lose their memories of things.

And so I really said, you know, I have to do this. And sort of what I told myself is. At the end of the day, I know I'm doing the right thing and how he receives me is not in my control, but what is in my control is being able to forgive him. And so I went out and I did it. And I actually ended up having a family friend, um, an aunt type person.

She had family that she was going to see in Colorado. So she went with me. And so that was an answered prayer because it would have been terrifying to think about going out there by myself, but I was committed to it. And so I just did it. I did the hard thing and it was beautiful. And I think that. You know, I think my dad was completely surprised to see me come through that door.

I think they both had thought she's not coming and I didn't even let them know I was, I just, I had told them [00:59:00] like weeks before that, like I'll be there on X, Y, Z date, never called to confirm, just showed up. It's like, hi. Um, so the element of surprise maybe worked a little bit because nobody could really think about it because I didn't really tell them that I was for sure going to come, but, um, it's just doing that hard thing.

It really is. You just, and you can't be dissuaded from it because all I can control is what I do. I can't control how other people receive me, but I would have felt bad with myself if I hadn't done it.

Joey: Love that. And there's something about when you do hard things to not think about it too much. You just have to like do it.

Um, which I found is like, is, is helpful. You kind of turn off that part of your brain to some extent. I know that you need to think through certain things, but, um, but wow, super good. And I know we're close to the end of the time here, but I just wanted to ask you this question about, um. Well, two more questions.

One about like, how did you overcome that fear of divorce? Cause I think that's something so many of us just feel so strongly. And we might even like avoid love relationships, marriage altogether because it controls us so strongly. How'd you work through that?

Samantha: I wish I had a better answer for you, but I will just say, um, the way that I was able to overcome it was [01:00:00] really through the strength of my husband, because.

My husband just, he showed up for me in every way before we were married. You know, when we were together, he called when he said he was going to call, you know, we did the things that we said that we were going to do when he said it, all of the inconstancy that I felt with my dad's absence was completely replaced by the steadfastness of my husband.

And so I was able to get past that because. Yeah. He spent a long time building up my trust. You know, he didn't ask me to come to him. He walked, you know, over the bridge to come get me and build that trust. And in building that trust, he was able to, you know, to lead me to him, to lead me to trusting that it was going to be okay.

And early on in our marriage, one thing that I would always do, because again, it was my brokenness and we would get into a fight and I would just. I'm going to get a divorce. We're just going to get a divorce. And one day he said to me, he said, Sam, he said, I know that you get really angry, but it hurts me so much when you say that, because I never want to get divorced from you.

Like I'm never giving [01:01:00] up on you. And it just hit me so much that, you know, that this was a person that had truly earned my trust. And even though we make mistakes, and even though there are times when I misunderstand him and he misunderstands me, like at the end of the day, we were really committed to each other.

So I would just say, you know. It's not easy to find who your person is going to be. I don't believe that that person is the only one person for you. I can't imagine being with anybody other than my husband, but we made a choice to be together and we made a choice to put the other before ourselves and in that choice and in that commitment, I think is how we were able to walk day by day, moment by moment.

To not being afraid of divorce because it was certainly present in the beginning, but again, you just take that one little step and it comes back to, you have to live in the present. You can't live in the future or in the past because the only thing that's there are assumptions and theories and things that are fearful.

And the best acronym I heard for fear is false evidence appearing as real. And that's what [01:02:00] happens when you live in the past and the future, right? It's that false evidence. It seems so real, but it's just your trust.

Joey: I love that. And what I'm learning from your story, I've heard this elsewhere, is like, action is the antidote to fear.

Like you said earlier in the conversation, you just have to push through it, move through it. You can't go around it, under it, over it. You have to like push through that fear, especially if it's something that's worth fighting for. And what I've found in my life, and I know others have found this as well, is like, when you overcome fear, you feel free.

And that opens up so many possibilities to, to love, to grow, to accomplish things, to go after your dreams.

Samantha: It opens up the door for you to keep going and experience the next thing. When you begin to shut the door to those things, you get very limited and your world gets really small. And so we never want our world to get small because when it gets really small, it's hard for us to have an understanding about other people because we're not experiencing other things.

Um, so I would definitely agree with that action. You know, action is the antidote to that. And again, it doesn't have to be a big thing. It can be that [01:03:00] first thing that you do in the morning where you get up at 5 30 because You said you were going to, or you're going to go take that walk. I mean, I think the greatest barrier that I had to my freedom was thinking that they had to be these huge heroic steps, right?

But oftentimes it's really the series of the small steps that you do every day on repeat that help you break through. And that liberation. It just feels like you're light that you just have all of those pressures and those burdens removed from you. And again, you might not get it perfect, but you're just taking that next step and you're taking those next actions and it is the greatest feeling.

Joey: Samantha, I have a hundred more questions for you, but we'll cut it there. You're so wise and so articulate and I just, I've really learned a lot from you. I appreciate you coming on the show. So thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and sharing your story. So openly, so vulnerably, I know we all learned a lot from you.

So thank you. I want to give you the last word. What final encouragement advice would you offer to maybe the younger you who's listening right now?

Samantha: I think the advice that I would give myself would be [01:04:00] really to remember that this life that we have, you know, is this one life and that all the things that we get hung up in our minds about really are inconsequential because when you start to move through them, you realize that that thing that you were worried about, like, you don't remember any of it.

I tell that to my kids all the time. I'm like, I don't remember. I mean, I remember my mom's death. I remember my father's death, but all the other stuff, it's really just. So momentary, and it is a way that can hold you back from things. And so I just say, take that next small step, you know, acknowledge, you know, where you are in life and be okay with that and just keep taking the next.

Small step and just living in that present moment. And if you can do that, I assure you all of the things will work out because our life is meant to be a journey. It's not meant to be perfect from the beginning. It's all a work in progress. We are all learning to become the best version of ourselves. But the only way that we can really do that is through those series of actions that we take each and every day.

So keep taking those steps.

Joey: If you [01:05:00] want to contact Samantha, you could actually do so through the email and the show notes or just click on the show notes in your phone, turn email there. And with that, that wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or follow us on your podcast app, whether that's Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen, not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more.

Subscribers that we have, the more the apps will actually suggest our show to people who are looking for help. And it only takes a few seconds to do that. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. That also helps other listeners find the podcast. And we really appreciate that feedback in closing.

Always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help and keep in mind the words of CS Lewis, who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#136: Relationship Advice for Young People from Broken Families | Jackie & Bobby Angel

The biggest area of struggle for young people from divorced or broken families is in romantic relationships. Why so much struggle? In short, we were poorly trained in how to love, so we feel incompetent at it and fear repeating our parents’ mistakes. 

So, how can you overcome that fear and relearn how to love? My guests answer that question and more: 

• How do you discern whether a lack of peace in a relationship is because of your brokenness or because the relationship isn’t right?

• What topics does a couple need to discuss and agree upon before marriage?

• What’s been the most helpful advice you’ve used in handling conflict?

If you’re from a divorced or dysfunctional family and you want to break that cycle and build a beautiful marriage and family, this episode is for you.

Follow Jackie & Bobby

• Website: JackieandBobby.com

• Instagram: @jackiefrancois

• Instagram: @bobby.angel

• YouTube: Conversations with Jackie & Bobby

• Listen on Apple

• Listen on Spotify

• YouTube: Ascension Presents playlist: Jackie & Bobby
  

Mentorship with Bobby: Schedule a FREE phone consultation with Bobby

If you need it, tell Bobby you heard him here and ask for a discount for your first month!

Get the Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

Get the Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

Pretty Good Catholic: How to find, date, and marry someone who shares your faith

How to Find Your Soulmate Without Losing Your Soul

The Dating Blueprint

Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts: Seven Questions to Ask Before and After You Marry

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

===

Jackie: So just because someone's perfect on paper doesn't mean they're great for you or they're the person that God's calling you to. Should

Joey: you have a checklist of like qualities you're looking for?

Jackie: I see people make these crazy vanity lists of like, Oh, he has to be six feet tall, make six figures, have a six pack.

I'm like, that's ridiculous. So you have to like the person and be free to be yourself with the person, but you also have to be very attracted to them because there's a lot of love making in marriage.

Joey: What conversations, what topics do you advise couples to have before they. You know, even get engaged.

Jackie: People don't talk about like in marriage, like, Oh, I expect that you're going to cook for me. I expect that you're going to take out the trash.

Joey: What's been the most helpful advice or tactic that you guys have used in

Bobby: your own marriage? I'll say as the introvert, your spouse can't read your mind.

Jackie: Oh,

Bobby: so sometimes you have to be assertive.

Joey: Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships. You can [00:01:00] break that cycle and build a better life. My guests today are a married couple, Jackie and Bobby Angel.

Jackie and Bobby are Catholic influencers, speakers, and authors who focus on dating, marriage, theology of the body, and so much more, reaching over a million people online. Jackie's been involved in ministry for over 20 years and now homeschools their children. With over 20 years of ministry experience himself, including a decade as a theology teacher, a time as a seminarian, even a time as a firefighter, Bobby is now a trained mentor and teacher.

From the Catholic Psych Institute. You'll hear more about that in the show and together they share their wisdom through speaking engagements, videos, and their podcasts. Now onto the topic of today, the biggest area of struggle for young people who come from divorce and broken families is in romantic relationships.

A 25 year long study from UC Berkeley found that fact, it was all summarized by the way, in a book called the unexpected legacy of divorce, which we'll link to in the show notes. If you want to check that out, why so much struggle in relationships in short, those of us who come from broken families were poorly trained in how to love.

And so we feel [00:02:00] incompetent, might actually be incompetent at it. And we fear repeating our parents mistakes, and so often end up repeating those mistakes in our own relationships, in our lives. And so the question becomes, how can you overcome that fear and relearn how to love? And my guests answer that question so much more.

What are your top three tips to navigate the dating world right now? It's really messy out there. How do you discern whether a lack of peace in your relationship is because of your own brokenness or maybe because the relationship isn't right? What topics does a couple need to discuss and agree upon before marriage and perhaps even before engagement?

What's been the most helpful advice that you've used in handling conflict? And finally, a really neat way that you can do daily mentorship. with Bobby. And so if you come from a divorce or a dysfunctional family and you want to break that cycle and build a beautiful marriage and family now or someday in the future, this episode is for you.

Now, before we dive in, I just want to let you know that in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm really glad that you're here.

My challenge for you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you're to [00:03:00] skip the God parts, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode. And with that, here's our conversation. Bobby, Jackie, so good to have you guys. Welcome.

Jackie: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Joey: Yeah, great to be here. I'm excited to talk with you guys.

A lot of questions, so we'll, we'll dive in, but before we get to those questions, get your advice on some things, I have to ask you, otherwise all of our female audience members will kill me. How'd you guys meet? What's your love story?

Jackie: The quickest version is we met at the Theology of the Body Institute.

The first time we met, he was in seminary. I was just like, you know, any, you know, normal girl who sees a very good looking man who's in seminary. You're like, Oh Lord, come on, why do you take all the good looking ones? Um, so what was good about that? It just allowed us to be friends. And a year and a half later, we remet at another theology of the body Institute course in Pennsylvania.

Cause I'm from California. He's from Florida. And, um, At this point, he had been praying, um, just really feeling called out of seminary to marriage and [00:04:00] we jokingly, well, he jokingly says that

Bobby: not so jokingly. Mother Teresa said when you pray, be specific. So I prayed for a sign that was loud and blonde

Jackie: that

Bobby: I could not miss.

Yeah,

Jackie: and it was just very apparent. It was just so good. Interesting how like that week was way different than the first week. It just, it was very apparent, like, whoa, there's something here. And so after that week, you know, he went to a spiritual director. He went to his bishop and he kind of he told his bishop, you know, Bishop, I found the girl I think I want to marry.

And his bishop goes, Well, Bob, we all thought you were a crapshoot for the priesthood anyways.

Well, I think Bobby was just so open with he wasn't. Under any, you know, false pretenses or pretending like, like, Oh, this is like, I don't have any sexual desire or like, I don't have any, you know, I think he was just very open and honest with his spiritual director, his bishop. Like, I don't know if I can do this celibacy.

Like, I feel called to be here at this moment. But so they all kind of knew, like, We're not, we're not counting on, [00:05:00]

Bobby: we're not, we're not surprised.

Jackie: We're not shocked, you know? So, uh, that's kind of the short story. And he, he moved to California a few months later and then proposed a few months later and it was pretty, you know, people say, you know, when you know, and when you're single, you hate that when people say that, but it's kind of true, I feel like, especially when you're in your later twenties, you know yourself really well, it was really like, it was strange.

Like when that week we remet, it was like, Whoa, what? Whoa. Like this is the person. It was very, very quick.

Bobby: Yeah. And that was most of, after most of my twenties, hitting my head against the wall, treating God like a magic eight ball, just tell me what you want me to do. And like when I finally got to a point of surrender.

And letting it all go. It was as if God could finally say, finally, we can get to work and things fell into place very quickly. And yeah, moved out to California. I worked at an all boys school for about 10 years. And now we're in Texas. We've got five crazy kids

Jackie: under [00:06:00] the age of 10. We homeschool. We're crazy.

Bobby: And, uh, yeah, we're happy to be here.

Joey: Yeah, no, I love crazy people. This is awesome. I'm glad we're talking. And, uh, I, uh, no, I'm sure there's a lot we could talk about your story, but it's funny. I know a couple couples who have a similar story where one of the guys was in seminary and then, you know, went down a different path and just turned out of that and then ended up building a beautiful marriage.

So. I'm grateful that, uh, God led you down the path. It is so interesting how he leaves a sound like a path sometimes and it says, just kidding. Like go this way. But there's a purpose for that too. Oh

Jackie: yeah. I'm so grateful for the formation that Bobby had in those years. I kind of wish like every Catholic man had to go through, you know, those kinds of years of formation.

Like Bobby had to take a whole semester on, Like active listening. I'm like, that has been very helpful for marriage. Like

Bobby: it was, it was awful.

Jackie: Every husband, every husband should have to take a course called active listening. Um, and, and really like, I just earned being a nun. And in my heart, I was like, Lord, I could be a nun, but I'm not called to be a nun.

Like I need a guy who could be a priest and is not called to be a priest because I knew like, I'm at this [00:07:00] place in my faith. Like, I don't want to drag along. The guy I'm going to marry, like, we need to be on the same page, and, you know, we need to, I want someone who we're going to run the race to heaven together, and I'm not going to be dragging him along, because I didn't want that for my life, you know, so I'm just grateful for the years he had the friends he made and who are a lot of the reprise now and

Bobby: some who baptized our kids

Jackie: somewhere.

The godfathers of our Children. And yeah, I'm just so I'm grateful for those those years.

Joey: Love it. No, nothing is wasted. I love that. I want to transition into talking about dating. Um, so the biggest area of struggle, uh, speaking of dating, the biggest area of struggle, uh, for people from broken families, our audience, uh, is in romantic relationships.

It's been a lot of research to show that as well. Um, basically we were poorly trained in how to love, and so we feel incompetent at it and we fear, you know, repeating our parents mistakes. And so I'm curious, I'll start with an easy question. How can someone overcome that fear and relearn how to love?

Jackie: Yeah. I mean, it makes sense that that fear comes from, again, if your parents are divorced, [00:08:00] there, there's a fear like, is, is it even possible, you know, and my parents are not divorced, but I come from a family that's very messed up. I mean, you know, like I did not have a good witness of a Catholic marriage.

And so I started praying when I had my conversion at 18, I was like, Lord, you need to start bringing some good marriages in my life to know that it is possible. Like, what does it even look like to have And God did. He started bringing mentors into my life of what it looked like. Um, so I think for me, I would say like the first step is our own healing is our own healing and really acknowledging what are those areas that like, where are the fears?

Um, am I afraid of being abandoned? Um, am I afraid of being rejected? And like, even in our marriage, like. There is a fear of being cheated on because that was an example for me, you know, like I, and so even that own insecurity in my heart, I have to work on of, um, making sure that I don't make Bobby an idol.

Like also the two of us meeting at theology of the body, we both knew only God can satisfy every [00:09:00] desire of our hearts. Like another human being can't do that. Um, so that was very freeing. Like Bobby's not God. I'm not God, even though he's the man of my dreams. He's the love of my life. He's my best friend.

He's not God. And it would be very unfair to make him God and to make him have to be perfect because he's not, and I'm not. Um, so I think obviously the first step for anyone, no matter what background you come from is like allowing the Lord, acknowledging the woundedness and allowing the Lord to heal you and how you see relationships.

But yeah, Bobby, what would you, what would you say?

Bobby: Yeah, I think one of the hardest first steps is to acknowledge where you've been hurt and where there have been deficiencies. Where there should have been love like where you needed love in a certain way you needed stability or security and it wasn't there because otherwise we're just constantly reacting and the parts of us get really agitated get really can be really controlling or clingy we don't want to be abandoned we don't want to be out of control and so it's also one of the hardest steps to actually sit [00:10:00] with myself to sit in silence to come to acknowledge okay how have I been hurt and how am I you What am I afraid of reliving because otherwise we are just kind of reacting to life instead of I know I'm operating out of a place of self knowledge and it's a painful journey.

You know, we do everything we can to avoid sitting with ourselves. We run from silence. We just endlessly distract ourselves. We scroll because it's really hard and painful to sit with these ways that we haven't been loved to rightly.

Jackie: Yeah. And then, and I would say like the best thing you can do for your vocation, no matter what your vocation is, whether that's celibacy or marriage, the best thing you can do is to be as healthy and Holy now and healthy in all the ways.

Right. Like healthy, physically, spiritually, emotionally, and. It's just one day at a time, you know, we're all on a journey and just everything one day at a time, but to, to not waste your single years, but to really allow the Lord. Cause when I was single, I was like, Lord, I might die tomorrow. I mean, I guess I'm kind of like memento [00:11:00] mori.

I just thought of death every day. I was like, maybe I'll die tomorrow. So I want to be as healthy and holy as I can today. And, um, yeah. Um, not knowing what tomorrow would bring, not knowing when my spouse would come, if that's what I was called to, you know, because I was fully open to the possibility that I might be called to celibacy or that I might die just for, for me, just like I was, I was like, I want to be as joyful as I can now and allow the Lord to heal me in those places of my heart, the, the wounds that I have for my mom, my dad, my siblings, like, uh, allow the Lord to heal me in those places.

So I can be free and live joyfully and not just be. Um, enslaved by my sin or even enslaved by my insecurities and my my woundedness

Bobby: or enslaved by fear because I know there's also the cases of those trying to avoid relationships at all costs. You know, because I've been so hurt by them. I've been so hurt by this example of marriage.

I want nothing to do with marriage. If I've been abused, I want nothing to do with acknowledging my sexuality. [00:12:00] Even in the Catholic sphere, people that choose celibacy more out of a fear of marriage. Then genuinely feeling called to the priest or called to be a sister. There's a sense of I just am so afraid of marriage.

I would rather hear or hear. I can't be hurt in the same way. I can't or just the fear of divorce repeating the cycle. I'd rather just opt out altogether.

Jackie: I like how he asked. This is an easy question.

Bobby: What once you use an

Jackie: easy question that you guys are going to take 20 minutes to answer.

Bobby: Once you pull the string on Jackie and Bobby, you don't know

Jackie: how long an

Bobby: answer when it's going to stop.

Jackie: It's like a really long worship song. It's going to go 15 minutes.

Joey: Yeah, no, this is so good. And you guys hit on so many great topics, which we'll go into a little bit deeper later. But you mentioned the word reacting, which I think is so true. Like one of the things that we believe here at Restored is that after sin, like sin's the worst thing in the world.

It's the cause of all the unhappiness in the world. But after sin, the thing that holds us back the most from becoming, yeah, the best version of ourselves is our untreated brokenness. And so I love that [00:13:00] focus of like, kind of getting your own house in order before you try to. Um, love because it's going to prevent you from loving.

Well, and I've seen that certainly, uh, in my own life. And so I love, um, Bobby, that you said you kind of need to diagnose your brokenness, you need to put words to it all, which can be deceptively hard. And once you've kind of come to that point, then you're better able to, you know, have that self awareness, move on to kind of self mastery, and then finally like move to the stage of like self love, where you're giving yourself self gift, um, which is, is the goal.

I, in my opinion, that's the meaning of life. So I love that. And then the other word you mentioned, reacting, um, I think, yeah, like you said, a lot of us have this fear of re enacting what we, we saw growing up. And so I think that's really the only way, if you're afraid of that, everyone listening, like working on yourself, growing, like growing in virtue of healing is, is always a good investment.

I would love to spend more time there, but I wanted to ask you guys, The dating world is obviously just so messy right now for everyone. I'm so glad like I'm not in it anymore. I feel for my friends who are. Um, so I'm just curious, like what are your top three tips? What would you say on navigating that dating [00:14:00] world right now?

And any books, resources, podcasts that you recommend?

Jackie: Yeah. Um, yeah, it is a total poop show. Um, but actually the book that we just got, the, um, um, Oh my gosh, I'm blanking. The single Catholic book. I, there was some really good advice in there of your funnel. Like you got to start with a wide funnel. Like you just got to start meeting a lot of people because it used to be, you literally could meet somebody in your town that shared the same values that you had and You were attracted to, and you know, you really had chemistry with it.

It used to be because so many more people had the same values that we did. It was much easier to find some of it now, just the statistic alone of the chances of just someone being a really good, like a good Catholic, or even having the same values as you is going to be pretty slim and then not just same values, but then you're, you have chemistry with them.

You have a friendship with them. You're attracted to them. I mean, right. It's like pretty daunting. So I just think your funnel needs to [00:15:00] be wider. Sometimes, um, I mean, I just, I'm online and I see people make these crazy, just, Vanity lists of like, Oh, he has to be six feet tall, make six figures, have a six pack.

I'm like, that's ridiculous. Like

Bobby: it's too many sixes.

Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Six, six, six. If that doesn't tell you something right there, um, you're, you know, I would say have obviously very high standards. Like I tell women all the time, don't settle, like, don't not, not, not to settle down, but like I say, don't settle for.

Like, don't grasp at, you know, because you're lonely or afraid. Wait on God's timing. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't be proactive and it doesn't mean you can't go on dating sites. So I would say your funnel needs to start being wide and you start meeting people. And I'm always about Catholic match or Catholic sites because Literally, we keep meeting.

I keep having friends who are like, I'm so embarrassed to say this, but we met on Catholic match and I'm like, why are you embarrassed? And like, they're literally getting married and sometimes it's after years of sifting through all the [00:16:00] really awkward people or whatever, but I'm like, Hey, it could be you get on.

And that guy just left seminary. And actually I had a friend that that happened to, he literally just left seminary, got on and she got on and they are married. Um, but this keeps happening to friends. So. Yup. Your funnel needs to be, you just need to meet people, and you can't, I heard this one comedian say, like, women, you need to leave the house unless you want to marry your Uber Eats guy.

Like, you want to get married, but if you don't leave the house, how are you going to meet people? Like, I literally traveled around the world for my ministry. For the first 10 years of my ministry, I traveled around the world. I met thousands upon thousands of Catholic men, and it still took me 10 years to meet Bobby Angel.

And I met amazing Catholic men, good men, holy men, but I was like, they're not Bobby. And so finally when I met Bobby, I was like, ah, there he is, you know? So your funnel needs to be wide. Um, very good Catholic, right? Isn't that what it's called? Very good Catholic.

Bobby: [00:17:00] The book, the book is right out there. Is it really?

The problem is if we go get it, a kid is going to see it and come.

Jackie: Or pretty good Catholic. Pretty good Catholic. That's what it's called. Pretty good Catholic.

Joey: Pretty Catholic. Cool. We'll put the link in the show notes so everyone can check it out. But yeah. Yeah.

Jackie: Cause it's all about being single. And she gives, she has advice from like a Catholic matchmaker and she, it's actually very good.

I highly recommend it. And just to help you when you're dating this, this poop show dating what it is right now. So yeah, Bobby, what would you say?

Bobby: I don't have much advice. What you said at the beginning, like you're just so thankful to be married and be done with it. I said something similar to a college talk we gave a year ago.

Jackie: Yeah.

Bobby: And I just like, ah, I don't know, man. Good luck.

Jackie: Cause I love talking about, I love talking to single people about dating and Bobby's like, I've already arrived. I don't need to stop. And not

Bobby: that I, Not that I don't care. It's just such gratitude to be on this side of the fence. Yeah. Because it is such a new landscape with all the different apps and, [00:18:00] and just, like, it was already a hookup culture 10, 15 years ago, but now it's just all the more we're atomized.

We're just trained to objectify one another to like,

Jackie: Atomized?

Bobby: Yeah. Like we're just kind of Broken apart. Okay. .

Jackie: Wow. I've never heard you say. Okay. Okay.

Bobby: Alright. See, I wanna talk philosophy. Jackie can talk dating all day long. . I can. Yeah. Yeah. We're not trained to like. Engage one another as humans. We're trained to look at each other as body parts to swipe left or right.

And I mean, it's, it's difficult. So even when, even in a time where to be proactive and to be assertive, like I'd like to take you on a date could be perceived as, well, I don't want to be a creeper.

Jackie: Yeah.

Bobby: It's like, Oh, like we're in a tough place in culture right now. And so,

Jackie: but I've always got guys ask girls on dates and girls say yes.

Like, unless you're afraid they're going to murder you, like say yes, practice going on dates. Just it's a good practice. So I had to put my money where my mouth was because I was speaking about this when I was single [00:19:00] and literally God was like, all right, I'm gonna make you practice this. And I'm not even kidding within 24 hours.

And this had never happened in my life. So don't think this happened before. Like four guys asked me on a date. I'm like, did they see my talk or something? But they didn't. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna just do it. I'm just gonna go on a first date. And so I had to practice going on dates. And then I had to practice if I didn't want to see them again, I had to practice which apparently I didn't because I'm married to Bobby.

Um, I had to practice not ghosting them and how to reject in a healthy way and say, you know, if they asked me on another date, My guy friend was like, just say thank you so much, but I won't be going on any further dates with you. Like, that's all you need. It does. And we all are so, man, we're so wounded. We get so sad when we're rejected, but the truth is, it's not.

If we were really healthy, we wouldn't get sad at being rejected. We would just be like, okay, I guess I'm not the person and there is somebody else for them and that's okay. And there's somebody else for me and that's okay.

Bobby: Well, and even with the sting of rejection, at least the gratitude of [00:20:00] there being upfront with you.

Jackie: Yeah,

Bobby: they're not ghosting you. If you're in this case where it's painful, you can acknowledge that

Jackie: they're not dragging you along and leading you on,

Bobby: but also to not throw a hissy fit. Like you see guys that just decide

to like start a verbal barrage and like making the girl to be the enemy when it's like, listen, she's trying to shoot straight with you.

There's no reason to turn into a toddler. But again, there's, there's parts of us that are wounded and hurt and we, we react and lash out if we're not in a place of self control and self mastery or

Jackie: integration. Yeah,

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Joey: I couldn't agree more. So, so basically the takeaway is put out a wide net, marry an ex seminarian and then make sure Yeah, sure.

No, no, but I think it's important. Like we want to find people who are like well formed and virtuous. Like we're talking, which we'll get into in a little bit, but yeah,

Jackie: I think we might talk about this, but kind of the two things that how, you know, somebody is the person you're called to marry. Like I just say like, number one, you have to have a good friendship and a virtuous friendship.

And then number two, you want to, you should want to pounce them. I mean, like if you, cause there's people, there's people are like, I want to pounce but y'all don't have anything to talk about. You don't have. A faith life together, friendship, you don't have a friendship and then there's people you have a friendship with and you're like, I'm not attracted to you, you know?

And so you have to have both because you're going to be married [00:22:00] to, you need to have a virtuous friendship. You're going to be with them 24 seven, right? So you have to like the person and be free to be yourself with the person, but y'all have to be very attracted to them because there's a lot of love making in marriage and uh, that would be very difficult if you were not attracted to the person.

Joey: No, I've heard stories where. There's struggles there. And it's definitely, I think it's a major area where you need to focus on like that attraction and the, yeah, the sexual attraction is like an important part of marriage. So I love that advice. I wanted to, um, go back in time a little bit, Jackie, you, a while ago wrote a great article called the devil wants you to settle in your relationships full of great advice.

One nuance I wanted your advice on for our audience is they struggle a lot with fear and anxiety in relationships so much. So that Bobby mentions before. They might end up giving up on love altogether or even leaving like otherwise good relationships because they're just afraid and they're really wounded.

And so basically means that a lack of peace doesn't automatically mean that the relationship isn't meant to be. It might mean that, but it doesn't automatically mean that, um, but it's not always the route. And so [00:23:00] definitely makes a lot harder to discern, you know, Is this lack of peace, the relationship, this person I'm with, or maybe my past?

So any advice for discerning that? Yeah.

Jackie: Cause I talk about in that article, like having that pit in your stomach and that situational anxiety, like when you're in the wrong job or you're in the wrong relationship, you have that pit in your stomach. Yeah. But for, so the people who maybe just have anxiety all the time, like, what do you do with that?

And I think. Again, it's very helpful kind of going back to the, is there a friendship there with this person kind of just knowing like outside of how you're feeling like, okay, do we have a friendship? Am I free to be myself? Even though maybe I still have anxiety, like is this, this particular person, is there peace with this person that just like I have with my friends of the same sex, like how are you with your girlfriends or your best guy friends?

You can be completely you and you don't have to put up. You know, a fake self, you don't have to put up mask. You can be completely you and they still love you. And that's how it's going to be with your spouse. It's this person's going to see [00:24:00] you completely naked, both physically and emotionally, spiritual, everything, and they're going to still love you.

So is there a friendship there? Just like. you would have with your, your best guy friends or best girlfriends. I think you can tell that even if you have anxiety, there's still going to be an acknowledgement. Like, wow, I can be myself. I can be free in this relationship. Um, and then also, am I attracted to this person?

Is there a romance there? Um, so. Yeah, because I asked Dr. Bataro this question, because I was getting this question a lot. And back in, back in my day, when I was in psychology, I mean, the statistic was that 20 percent of people had generalized general anxiety. And I, I kind of have a feeling that statistic has gone up, you know, so for maybe, 80 percent of people or 70 percent of people, they might have situational anxiety when they're in the wrong relationship, the wrong job.

But those people who have generalized anxiety all the time, and it really affects their day to day life. I asked Bataro, I said, you know, how do those people discern? He's like, well, you would still have a piece about the [00:25:00] person, even though you still have the same thing, there still would still be like, I still have a.

Really deep friendship with this person. I think we make it so complicated. And the problem is we always are trying to make the shoe fit. When we have the wrong person, we're like, I just want to make it fit. And we kind of know inherently like, no, we, I feel like I did that in so many other relationships.

You're like, oh, but there were signs like I, this person's name I saw on the street side. We just try to make the wrong shoe fit. So often, I think that's where it becomes really difficult. And then when we find the person we're. Actually supposed to be with, it's like, Oh, like this, I really do have a friendship with this person.

But Bobby, what would you, what would you say to that and add?

Bobby: Yeah, everything Jackie said, uh, just, just rewind and listen to it again. I mean, I, I think two of, we can have a part of us that Just is tempted to self sabotage and afraid of the [00:26:00] thing that we want the most and what if it what if it falls through because how I've been wounded by divorce or how I've been rejected.

So sometimes there is that in a generalized anxiety sense. That temptation to to self sabotage and maybe it's because a part of us thinks that I don't deserve this I don't deserve this relationship. I don't deserve the love of this person I mean my spiritual director told me when I was tempted I had a moment of like this is too good to be true Like when Jackie and I just really started to click in he's like don't refuse the gift like recognize what God is allowing to happen And what you've been praying for, it's finally happening.

And to know, like, there's a part of you that is really quick to be self critical and think I don't deserve this. This is, you know, don't get my hopes up. And it's like, no, no, no, just receive the gift.

Jackie: And on the opposite spectrum is that when you are with the wrong person. It's good to like talk to your family and your friends because you know, there are moments like I was with the wrong person and my friends like, yeah, we don't like this guy.

And, and, and then when Bobby, like Bobby was engaged [00:27:00] prior to, and the girl that he was with his own family was like, you're not yourself. And his friends were like, you're not Bobby. Like you're not you when you're with this girl. Like you, Are not as fun. You're not as happy. And so it's also good to have our people outside of the relationship help to see maybe some blind spots that we can't see

Bobby: even to risk the friendship because sometimes we've pushed away the voices of accountability in our lives because we don't want to be seen.

We're not proud of what we're doing or the behaviors we're doing or we don't want to be told So I, I had friends put the friendship on the line and be like, you may not want to hear this, but we don't think this girl, like it's, it's, it's right. It's healthy and you know, it's, it's stung. But at the same time, the part of me is like, like craving for like a smack in the face.

Like, you know, we, we know there's a better option here for everyone. And yeah, like sometimes we need the friends. To tear the roof off and lower us to Jesus because we're just so [00:28:00] broken, we're so paralyzed with our own fear or our own addictions, whatever, like we need the help of friends and family to bring us to Jesus to intervene.

So if you're listening and there's someone in your life that you've have felt the nudge to reach out to talk to like that, you know, might be the Holy Spirit.

Jackie: Yeah, please, for the love of God, do it. I've, I've just had women reach out to me who were months away from a marriage and even just them reaching out to me on Instagram and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you are just saying so many red flags.

And they're like, no, but I can't imagine life without this person and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I'm just repeating back to you, what you just said to me. And you know, it might take a while for them to kind of But it's like you wouldn't have reached out to me if you, you know, you didn't kind of know at a deeper level, like this wasn't right.

So yeah, marriage, I'm all about like, but again, better 14 broken engagements than one broken marriage. And again, if this, if you guys know this, you know, this from experience, you know, what a broken marriage can do and how [00:29:00] it affects generations, like how it affects you. And it affects, and so we know. So I, I don't want that to scare you on finding the right person, but I think, listen to what, like what Bobby said, like when you're with the wrong person, That there's, there's a way that it feels and your friends and family can see it.

But when you're with the right person, don't self sabotage. And also there will be people around you who will see like, no, this person's amazing and really good for you. And you can be yourself and you know, you don't need to second guess that you're attracted to them. And there's a beautiful friendship there.

So

Joey: no, I love that. There's so much more we could say. I was just thinking back, uh, one of my relationships, I thankfully, like all my serious relationships with the team. These great girls, like they were awesome women, but didn't always mean they were right for me. And I remember, um, in one situation, one of my buddies, after the girl had broken up with me, he was like, Oh yeah, I saw that.

I was like, I wish she would have said something to me. So the lesson I took away from that is you can't always wait for your friends to come to you with this stuff. You sometimes need to seek it out. In fact, that's what I would [00:30:00] advise is like, Ask your friends. Like you guys are saying, ask your family.

Hey, what do you think about this? Do you see any red flags and yellow flags? Like what's going on here? Um, and I know Jason Everett has a bunch of great stuff that if you guys are wondering, like what you're talking about, seems maybe a little bit elusive in the sense of like, it's not only based on feelings.

That's not what we're saying here. There are objective markers. And I know I've heard you guys preach about this too. And so Jason Everett's book, uh, how to find your soulmate without losing your soul is great for women helping you discern if like the man is right for you. And then his dating blueprint for the guys as well.

We'll link to those in the show notes. They can help. Provide some like, you know, objective framework, not that you shouldn't pay attention to your emotions too. I think the tricky thing with this audience is like, they might have a lot of peace and other areas over the life, but when it comes to love and relationships, because there's just so much baggage and brokenness there, it can be freaky.

Like in my case, um, I remember once I got to like that point in my life where I was started to seriously date, I was terrified. I felt so incompetent. I didn't really know what I was doing. Um, and I almost like. Like Bobby, you said before, I almost just like backed away from it. So I think this advice is, is good [00:31:00] advice.

And what are you guys are saying is really helpful for now. Anything you'd add before we move over to marriage?

Jackie: Well, I like what you said about someone could be great on paper. Oh man. Like there, there was a guy that I was like going on days of like perfect on paper, like literally stellar on paper. And then just there, the French, like, I'm like, I don't want to spend 24 seven with this person.

And like, I think I would. Die if I just, you know, I, it's just, there were things that, again, but on paper, an amazing guy, amazing Catholic. Um, and, and so just cause someone's perfect on paper, it doesn't mean they're great for you or they're the person that God's calling you to. So I think that was a very good distinction.

And sometimes we can be in love with the idea of a person instead of actually the person. And so I definitely know we, we prayer blocked a friend of ours.

Bobby: A few.

Jackie: Our friend, our friend told us they were engaged. And I was like, I had this massive pit in my stomach. I was like, Baba, we need a prayer block this ASAP.

Like, this is not. This is, these two are not meant to be married. And so [00:32:00] we literally prayer block, like we literally just pray. This is how we got to your baby. Jesus, please break this couple up, but it lets your will be done. Wink, wink, but I know what your will like. And literally five months later, they, they broke it off.

Thank God. It just, I just knew this man was in love with the idea of this woman and not in love with her. And I was like, she deserves better. She deserves a guy who actually is in love with her and not just the idea of her. Um, and on paper they looked perfect together. Wow. But again, I kind of knew a little bit more of the inner workings of the relationship and the stuff.

So I kind of knew a little more, but yeah, we probably blocked a couple, a couple of people.

Joey: You guys are good friends and I'm sure they're doing better because of it. Thank God. I,

Jackie: Oh, amen. I think the girl met her husband like six months later and he's amazing. So,

Joey: so good. So good. And that's Chuck. I love the distinction you made.

Like one of the things that is sometimes debated is like, should you have a checklist of like qualities you're looking for? And I think it's a good thing, but I think like you said before, too, it's so important to distinguish between like the non negotiables and the kind of [00:33:00] more preferences, vanity items maybe.

But yeah, but it's so important to remember you don't marry a checklist. Like you marry a person. And, and so I think it's really important, even if, like you said, they line up like, yeah, we believe the same things where, you know, we believe the same things about God, about like parenting and morality and all these things, but there's just something there that's not matching up.

There's not, you're not suited to each other. It's not good chemistry, things like that. The two things I noticed in some of my relationships, um, one, when the relationship wasn't meant to be, there was often like a heaviness around it. That's the best way I can explain it. Like there were like almost like constantly like problems to be solved in it.

Um, that was one item. And the second one, like it kind of lacked like some sort of like smoothness or naturalness. And I know that might sound kind of vague, but like basically it wasn't like you mentioned with like my best friends or, you know, female friends who I get along with really well, there was just kind of this mismatch and constant butting heads.

And obviously relationships are hard. Like we need to learn how to love, but. I think if it's that early on in the dating relationship and you're already having struggles, it's a kind of a scary sign of what's to come. So I know we need to move on to marriage [00:34:00] advice, but any final thoughts on this?

Jackie: For me, it was massively important that I married, like, again, in our, in a friendship.

I love Like someone who has a good sense of humor, like to be able to laugh through life is like massively important to me. Now, my best friend, she's like, I could care less about a sense of humor. He needs to have a job. Like, but for me, I'm like, if he does, if we don't have the same sense of humor, I will die.

Like I will die. So the fact that I was like, okay, he has to like the same stupid humor. Like I like watch the office parks and rec. Like I love. And so when Bobby was so self deprecating could make me laugh, it was like, immediately I love this man. Like just even as a friend, it was. When we were friends, I was like, Oh my gosh, this, I love his humor.

Like that to me is one of the most attractive besides like being holy. The humor is like one of those attractive things to me. So I think again, you have to know yourself and know like, this is a person I want to spend with every day. And Bobby makes me laugh, like even when we're in fights and I want to punch him in the face, there'll be times he makes me laugh.

And I'm like, ah, I'm so mad at you, but you're [00:35:00] so, you know, so you have to have joy in marriage and. Someone who, again, you're on a team, especially when there's kids in the mix, like you're on this team together, you're working together and, um, to have that joy, to really have that joy in marriage is huge.

Joey: I love that.

And on that note, I'm curious, like what conversations, what topics do you advise couples to have before they, you know, even get engaged, but especially before they get married to maybe try to vet if this person is right for them.

Jackie: I've talked a lot. I know I have things, so I want you to,

Bobby: I want you to keep talking.

Jackie: What do you think people need to talk about, Bobby?

Bobby: The stuff that you don't want to talk about, like finances, our approach to kids. And because, again, the, the nature of this particular conversation and forum, like family history, like family of origin stuff. Like what's going on in your family tree, like all that stuff, even if it's a lot of it's in our blind spots where we've worked really hard to shove it into the subconscious.

Like we don't talk about Bruno, but [00:36:00] this is the stuff that is going to come out in one way, shape or form.

Joey: Yeah.

Bobby: So like there's the, the matters of faith. And, and the type of people we want to be. And there's also the nitty gritty of, of, yeah, finances like saving and spending. Communication is, is a thing that makes and breaks relationships.

Like you can't over communicate, you know, this, this is especially our, our relationship around conflict.

Jackie: Yeah,

Bobby: and, and the sense of like, most of us, it's either like loud and we just, it's shouting at each other and, but we're not really resolving anything or we don't fight at all. We just push it under the rug and neither extreme is really helpful.

If we can't have empathy and step into one another's shoes and what are we really. Upset about or talking about what is she trying to communicate to me and vice versa these are the stuff that the more you can iron out ahead of time and it's it's a school of love as Pope John Paul the second said so it's not [00:37:00] overnight you master this stuff where 11 years married.

I mean, we hashed out a lot in

Jackie: engagement. That was probably engagement was our hardest time. Cause we were like, we need to talk about all these things. You need to talk about expectations. What your roles in the house, like, tell me about, like, what do you expect that I'm going to do as a wife? What do you expect?

I'm going to do as a husband, like even like taking the try. It's like, cause we have these, we have these expectations that people don't talk about, like in marriage, like, Oh, I expect that you're going to cook for me. I expect that you're going to take out the trash. I expect you're going to mow the lawn.

So

Bobby: based on the family of origin, it's like, my dad always did this or my mom did this. And so there's. Sometimes a nonverbal expectation.

Jackie: It's

Bobby: like, Oh, that's not how we did it in my family.

Jackie: Right. So you talk about that. You need to talk about your sexual history. Like, does somebody struggle with porn? Is there addiction?

Is there like, what's that? You need to talk about the very difficult thing. Talk about children. Are you on the same page with, you know, the, if you're Catholic, like the teachings of the church, when it comes to contraception, I mean, I literally, I know this is ridiculous, but like on a first date, I'd be like, If I didn't already know that they were very Catholic, I'd be [00:38:00] like, what do you think about NFP?

Like, I'm like, sorry, my time is precious here. I wasted my time. Like, cause I know again, I could be a nun, but I'm not calling you. Um, so you have to talk, I am shocked that certain couples like literally don't talk about things. They get married. One of the most common, I remember in psychology, they were like, the most common years of divorce are year one, year seven and year 20 and year one is like, yeah, cause y'all, y'all didn't talk about stuff and then you, you're married and you're with somebody every day and these things come out.

Like I tell single people all the time, marriage doesn't solve your problems. It exposes them. Right? Like you, you think like, Oh, I marry this person. It's going to solve all my problems. All your ish comes to the light. Okay. And so it's going to come, it's going to come out cause you're with this person all the time.

And so I feel like the more you can talk about stuff in engagement, the better and the beautiful thing is what you said about the heaviness in the wrong relationship with Bobby. Every time we got in an argument when we were [00:39:00] engaged and then we apologized made up. It was like, Okay. Ah, okay. This guy's not going to leave me.

Like he loves me for me. Whereas like in other relationships, there would be an argument and it felt like, uh, like I, you know, it felt like, I don't know if this is the person, like the, the way, the way this person handled it, or like, I feel like they, they might not really love me. Um, but with Bobby was so different.

I was like, man, he actually loves me and he's not going to leave me. And like, we're in this. So. I'm, I'm all for you talk about all that tough stuff. So yeah, children, expectations, finances, your family of origin, your sexual history. I mean, there are definitely books like we had an engagement that was like 101 questions to ask before you get married.

And you know, I, on that whole article, the devil wants you to settle. Like I go through a list of questions to ask yourself, like red flags and then things that are a little less red flags, but like you still need to ask yourself. So

Bobby: also. Let it, you know, let these conversations come organically.

Jackie: Yeah. You don't need to do it [00:40:00] all.

Bobby: Once you know, okay, this is serious.

Jackie: Yeah.

Bobby: We want to be exclusive here and we're not just dating to date. I see a future here. There's a, there's a comfort. There's an, there's an ease. You could start to get into some of this stuff. And, and let it kind of come as trust builds and we can continue to grow in vulnerability with each other.

And we, we love each other more the deeper we go, like that's another great sign of this is the person I want to, I want to be with

Joey: all the type a people just heard, okay, I need to schedule eight hours on a Saturday with my girlfriend.

Jackie: Although we did, we were, I remember we were like at a pond. I don't know if we were engaged or dating at one point, but we literally did go through that book of like 101 questions to ask for your marriage.

So we did. We sat for a day. I know, but we did. We had a couple hour day and we like went through some of these questions just because you just want to, you know, you want to make sure you're on the same page with this stuff. So

[00:41:00]

Joey: no, it's so important. So important. And yeah, I definitely. I've heard Father Mike talk about the [00:42:00] things that you just mentioned, like get on the same page when it comes to parenting, like how many kids you want to have, things like that, like obviously openness to life, of course, but get on the same page when it comes to, you know, faith, Bobby mentioned that, um, when it comes to money, you guys mentioned that, and then when it comes to, um, uh, in laws, like family, Situation too.

That's super important. And I know father Mike kind of adds the intimacy component, which Jackie already said super well. So those five points have always been kind of helpful for me and my wife and I were able to talk through those. I know the focus inventory, like if you're Catholic and getting married through a Catholic parish, Catholic church, um, the focus inventory is an assessment if you're not familiar with it.

It just kind of spurs conversation for you and hopefully your mentor couple or priest to just talk through some of these things too. But I would say it's kind of late in the game if you're just doing it then. So start sooner if you can. So thank you guys for that. Such good advice. And then one book I wanted to recommend too, it's by an evangelical couple, um, how to save your marriage before it starts.

Uh, a lot of good questions in there as well. Doctors, Les and Leslie Parrott, men, women, couple who, uh, write books on relationships and marriage. And I've learned a lot from them as well. Um, so yeah, Thank you guys for that. Um, so many more questions I want to go [00:43:00] through. I know we're running out of time, but I'm curious, Bobby, you mentioned conflict, like how important it is to learn how to handle that.

Well, make it healthy. Uh, what's been the most helpful advice or tactic that you guys have used in your own marriage? Because as you guys know, this is a major struggle for the people that we serve from broken families because so often they just saw conflict handle so poorly.

Bobby: You know, Jackie's always says she's sorry.

Um,

Jackie: I was like, I'm waiting for the joke to come. He's like, just, uh, avoid, avoid, just run.

Bobby: Yeah, if I wait long enough, she'll always apologize. So, um, yeah, I think kind of what I said at the very beginning of the episode, which was acknowledge. How have I seen? Like, what's the first blueprint I was given of conflict?

So how did my parents fight or not fight? Because that's my baseline of. Conflict equals arguing or conflict equals

Jackie: throwing something at or yeah, it's violence, violence. And so

Bobby: like, what am I working with and how might I need to rehabilitate that? [00:44:00] And for me, that was kind of a no conflict model. So any conflict or disagreement was like, This is ending.

This is awful. Like this is, you know, Defcon five. It's like, no, no, no, it's just, we need to communicate. We didn't have a disagreement. And so I, so I don't need to run away. I can turn towards it and recognize what parts of me are in fight or flight right now and realize. She loves me. This relationship is secure.

So even when it comes to attachment styles, there's a lot of literature and resources out there that can inform you of like, oh, I'm, I'm totally that I'm totally anxious or I'm totally avoidant. And I try to, I want to grow in relationship, but I'm also tempted to keep a person at an arm's length because what if they hurt me?

So the more we can grow in self knowledge and what is my norm for communicating and engaging conflict, it's going to help you stretch and realize, okay, I have room to grow here. And just because we're having conflict, it doesn't mean the relationship is over or it's in danger. In fact, the repair is and coming back together is [00:45:00] makes the relationship even stronger than if we never had like a disagreement at all.

Jackie: Yeah. And I, and I think obviously like we have our, I think we have our formula now for when we, you know, one of us does something and it's hurtful. Um, most of the time it's Bob, but we kind of, the two of us kind of not do the silent treatment, but we, we both are, we kind of, we take our time kind of questioning what's really going on here.

So like in my head, I'm like, why is he mad or why am I mad? Yeah. And is it really the thing, or is there something deeper than the thing? So, for instance, there was a time that I was mad at him, and, like, I'm thinking, am I mad at him, or am I actually mad because there's an insecurity in me? And there was that, there was a time that it was like, it was, it was me.

It was like, I was mad about something that he didn't even do. It was just that I was in, my own insecurity was, Run in the ship, you know, and [00:46:00] so I was getting jealous and I was, I was like, this wasn't even his fault. And then there were times, there have been times that you bring something to someone, you say, Hey, I feel like I felt this way.

So this is kind of like I've my friends who did net the national evangelization team. They have their conflict resolution. Like they would say, Hey, I felt this way when you did this. Not be like, ah, you always do this. But like, Hey, I felt this way. Cause they can't, no one can say, Oh, you didn't feel that way.

It's like, no, this is how I felt. I felt angry. I felt sad. I felt rejected when you did this, I didn't feel seen. Like, so there was a time when Bobby mowed the lawn and I made a comment that, you know, and it hurt him. And, and he was like, Hey, I felt this way when you said this. And so for us, we. Talk about it.

And we use the phrase in the future, because you can't change what just happened, but we say in the future, it would really help me if, when, so for instance, in the leaf thing, like in the future, when I mow the lawn, it would be really [00:47:00] helpful if you just said, And then you can criticize the job.

Joey: We missed a whole patch.

Well,

Jackie: like literally Bobby was like, all, I just want you to affirm what I just did for the last hour and then you can give me feedback, but I want to hear, thank you, you know? And so we always kind of say, Hey, or even if we're not in a, an argument, but like, say, I feel like I'm drowning with kids and housework.

I just say to Bobby, Hey, it would really help me. If you did this. It would really help me in the future. If you did this, like we, we want to love each other. We want to help each other. We're on the same team. And so again, you can't change the past. You can't change what you said. And also we don't ever say, I'm sorry.

You felt that way. Cause that's a very narcissistic response, right? That's like, don't ever say, I'm sorry. You feel that way. I say, no, I am sorry. I did that. I mean, personally for me, like. Even if I don't necessarily, like, there have been times, like, in a friendship, I'm like, I don't, you know, sometimes you [00:48:00] don't even think, like, did I do something wrong?

Like, I, I, I, in those cases, if you don't actually feel like you did something wrong, be like, I am so sorry. If I knew that that's how you would have, that you felt, I would have never done that. You know, cause like again, I care for my friend, I care for my spouse and I don't ever want them to feel that way.

And like, even if I didn't think it was that big of a deal, like I would have never done that had I known that it would make you feel like that. Like, I am so sorry.

Bobby: I'll say as the introvert, your spouse can't read your mind. So sometimes you have to be assertive

Jackie: in

Bobby: what you need, which is tough. Like, Especially if you have a part that wants to be a servant to the point of like, I have to be a martyr.

I have to overextend myself, but then you end up kind of frustrated and resentful because no one's checking in. It's like, well, you've got to vocalize. What do you need? Like I could really use help with the kids. I could use an afternoon just out of the house. Like say, don't be afraid to say what you need.

Jackie: Yeah. Your spouse cannot read your mind. You always ask for help. Ask for [00:49:00] Yeah. So that's like our thing. It's like in the future. So like with an argument, it's like in the future, it would be helpful if you responded like that. Like if I did this, this is how I wish it would have gone. This is how it could go better, you know, like when I do this, this is how, whatever.

And then it would really help me if you did this, you know, to help lighten the load of whatever we're, You know, I need, I need a day retreat. I need a silent retreat.

Joey: No, I hear you guys. This is so good. I love how tactical you guys get. This is really helpful. I have another question for you, but I wanted to mention some for our audience, what we've kind of heard, uh, Catholic author Layla Miller put this into words really well.

She said that For children of divorce and people come from broken families, we often have this belief subconsciously that conflict leads to permanent separation. And so like you said before, it's like really important to expose that stuff to light to understand like, okay, this is going to maybe drive my behavior and the way I feel about conflict.

I really need to like, talk about that, bring that to mentorship therapy, wherever. Um, so, so I love that as well. And then the other thing that's been really helpful for [00:50:00] me personally is, um, business author, speaker, Pat Lincione. He talks about how trust makes conflict the pursuit of truth. And I love that line.

Like trust makes conflicted pursuit of truth. So if you can have, you know, a base level trust. Um, then any sort of conflict is just a matter of like, how do we as a team come to the best possible solution in this particular situation? Not like a, just a battle of egos. And so those have been really helpful for me and everything you guys said I'm learning from you.

So I want your advice. My wife and I were kind of butt heads on this a little bit, if I'm honest. Um, I'm the type who, when I apologize, Jackie, like you mentioned, if it was something I did with good intention and then it ended up like hurting her or ended up overlooking something else, I, you know, will sometimes like want to explain like, well, actually, here's what I was trying to do.

And it ended up, you know, hurting you or it wasn't, you weren't happy with it, but she doesn't want to hear that in the moment. And so I'm curious, like if you guys had to navigate that and what's your advice, like, is there a place for an explanation or does that just sound like an excuse to me? It's like an explanation, but to her, it kind of sounds like an excuse.

And so without oversharing or [00:51:00] anything, I think this is something that I've heard other couples struggle with as well. That when's there a place for saying like, actually, like you're just misunderstanding me versus, Hey, I'm just sorry in the future. Like you said, Jackie, I'll do it differently.

Jackie: We had an argument probably within the last year and a half that kind of, we were just kind of.

Missing each other's intentions, I think. And so Bobby came to me with something and I was like, okay, that's, this is, this is what I was doing or saying. And, and we kind of had to hash it out. So I don't mind, I mean, personally, I don't mind if we kind of hash out like. What were you actually thinking? Like, what was I thinking?

Like it was just really, we were missing each other and I think it just depends on your spouse. Like, yeah, I mean, I would say that's hard because if she doesn't in the moment want to hear an explanation, um, yeah, I, I would say maybe on your end, like you're saying, okay, what, instead of me doing this, what would you What would you have hoped that I would have done, or what would you like me to do in the future?

Because I, like, I didn't mean this to hurt you, and I would have [00:52:00] never done it if I knew it was going to hurt you, but what would you, what would you like me to do in the And not do it like, what would you like me to do in

Bobby: the future? Tone matters. Can you write up a Google doc right now? I think

Jackie: so, to ask, yeah, to ask your spouse, like, so in the future, if this happens, like what, how, how would you want me to respond or like, what would be the best way for you, for me to love you?

Like, how can I love you? Better. And so for some couples, like effort, Bobby and I, like, I remember we were sitting in our bathroom, just hashing it out. Like, well, this is what I thought. And I meant, and this is what I thought. And I meant like, okay, in the future, because then we can't change the past. We can't change what just happened, but I'm going to be more attentive to your needs.

And I'm going to make sure I voice my needs, you know? So it's like, so we kind of had to hash it out a little bit, because in my mind, I was like, I didn't do anything wrong. But. So we were kind of hashing it out because I had to understand where he was coming from and I had, you know, so like we had to really work [00:53:00] through like, okay, so in the future, we need to make sure we do this.

We need to make sure we voice our needs and we're attentive to each other's needs and we don't let things slide, you know,

Bobby: well, it's a note to that. Sometimes one of us we want to be right. And the other person just wants to be heard, you know, so you're fighting for clarity. Like what I was doing, I was after a good, I was actually trying to help and serve and wanting that validation and the other just wants to be heard for their perspective and their point of view.

And so to come to a place where, okay, can we step into each other's shoes? And see what we're seeking and then a light might require like for the male, for instance, who often wants to be right to recognize, let me subordinate that to, to realize how is my spouse feeling? How is she doing? What did my actions as good intention as they were?

What is that causing in her and understand that first? And then the hope of circling back. And once that piece is established to say, like, [00:54:00] here's what I was trying to do. I can understand how it led to this. I want to make sure in the future it's handled differently, not, not to the extreme though. It's like, you're just becoming, uh, you're letting yourself be walked over perpetually, you know, cause that, that's not the point either.

It's to honor the other. And John Paul, the second talked a lot about tenderness and being able to be tender with one another is to step into the other shoes and to experience their world, to be able to read his or her body language. I can tell when my wife is exhausted. I can tell when she is, you know, Overwhelmed with the kids and it's like, so what can I do assertively, uh, to serve?

Jackie: Yeah. So like if in that moment your wife just wants to be heard, she doesn't want an explanation necessarily. Yeah. To be like, okay, I see that at this point she just wants some, she just wants to be heard and that's okay. Like,

Joey: yeah,

Jackie: like I'm sorry. And yeah, I, I maybe at a, apart from that to say like, yes, I'm, I'm so sorry.

Like I, my intention was to help and I obviously that didn't. So in the [00:55:00] future, this is how I can help. You know,

Joey: no, I love that. No, I try to be the guinea pig for the audience. That's why I threw that out there. Um, but this is so helpful. And I know, um, what we've kind of landed on, especially in our best moments was just that, that, you know, I can just apologize and kind of eat my pride in the moment.

And then at a later time when the emotions kind of quelled, then we can have that conversation of like, well, actually I was trying to do this and I was trying to help. And I understand that, you know, it didn't come across that way. So I love that advice. Thank you guys. Um, I know we're, we're almost out of time here.

So I want to transition into mentorship. Bobby, um, if people want to continue to gain from your wisdom and, um, work with you potentially to heal and to kind of get guidance through some of the challenges they're dealing with, especially due to all the brokenness from their families. Uh, tell us a little bit about mentorship.

Uh, you're a trained mentor with Catholic Psych who we've had Dr. Pitara on the show. So what, what exactly is mentorship and any cool stories of transformation that you've seen?

Bobby: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Greg invited me to be part of the Guinea pig cohort in training people to do mentorship. As he calls it, [00:56:00] which has one foot in therapy and counseling and the best of psychology and the other foot in authentic Catholic anthropology.

And what do we mean by a flourishing human person? So we're not boxing with like one hand tied behind our back. It's, I have a vision of man and woman is God created them to be. And also the different tools in, in ministry, in psychology to help people get to that healing. And I've been blessed to do it now for a year alongside Jackie and I's speaking and media ministry.

And, uh, there's now a growing army of those of us who've graduated the program, who are hungry to help people. And walk with them and help them process because one of the sayings that we're reminded of frequently is that we're hurt in relationship and we're also healed in relationship. So we're hurt in the situations of childhood where there has been divorce, abuse, abandonment, et cetera, but what it takes.

Is right relationship a corrective [00:57:00] emotional experience, as it's so called, where I can be in a place where I am loved and I am received and I can rewrite that script and God can heal in a moment, you know, there's miracles for sure, like physical healing, psychological healings. But there's usually a process.

It's usually a process of walking with another person. It's not just one podcast episode, one YouTube video. It's there can be real insight and eureka moments, but it's usually walking with another person that I experienced God's love and healing. Uh, so yeah, I've been, I've been blessed to, to walk with many people and you know, stories of just self loathing or, or addiction.

Rocky marriages just had to take it slow and look at what's the underlying hurt. What have you been running away from? What do you refuse to acknowledge? And what you said earlier about trust, like as trust builds and you can reveal a little bit more of yourself and a little bit more of yourself and a little bit more, it's like understand like the parts of you that don't think I'm worthy of love or are so [00:58:00] afraid of repeating the script of my parents that I'm sabotaging everything and to let that click to let, to bring that into the light and let God do the rest.

It's been a real gift to have the ministry that Jackie and I have come out of to grow in this deeper, deeper way. I never thought I would be in mental health, like the mental health field. It kind of found me, but it also just really fits with my youth ministry background.

Jackie: It was beautiful. It's like you're not going to a therapist's office once a week, you know, every couple of weeks or once a month.

It's like a Monday through Friday, every day, like a 15 minute voice memo kind of back and forth. And Bobby responds within 24 hours. Like, so it's like every day you're, you're kind of, because I know for me, like, I forget what happened last week. And so, but if it's daily, I'm like, I know what happened today and how I felt today.

And, you know, it's like two days ago, I was really annoyed by something today. I'm like, I'm totally over it, you know, but it's just like for it to go daily. And then also what I love about mentorship, it can be around the world. So Bobby could [00:59:00] work with someone in the military. Who's literally stationed somewhere who they can't be at a therapist office once a week, you know, and people from.

Different countries, different time zones, and this kind of particular way of doing it is so beautiful because They could be in a halfway around the world and still, yeah, I've gotten, I've

Bobby: gotten to, to work with people in the UK and, and, uh, Australia, uh, Columbia, Costa Rica, and it's just like, praise God, like technology brings about a whole lot of not great stuff, you know, but also the gift of forums like this and new avenues of healing.

And so I'm very, very thankful for what Catholic Psych is doing. And like I said, it's, there's a whole graduated class of us open for business and ready to. To walk with anyone in your audience who needs the listening ear. I just need someone to help them process their stuff with.

Joey: I love that. Thanks for going through it.

And no, I'm, I'm a big fan. Um, for those of you listening, who don't know, we've just begun a partnership with Catholic psych. And so we, um, you know, I've been in conversation a while about this. And so we've [01:00:00] vetted it. We love what you guys are doing. And if you guys want 10 percent off your first month, you can just put in the code restored 24, all caps restored 24, and I'll get you 10 percent off your first month.

Um, and yeah, just super. Happy about just all the ways in which you guys are helping people. And I wanted to say this, I was talking to a software engineer, a woman in her twenties recently who did a year of mentorship and she was, I was wondering like, yeah, what'd you get out of it? Was it a good deal? She was like, yeah, I did the math and compared it to therapy.

Um, I think it's better than therapy, but she compared the math in terms of the price for therapy, the price for. Mentorship and the time you get and she's like, yeah, it actually wasn't even close. I got way more out of mentorship than I did out of therapy because I know that's a big concern for a lot of people.

So if you want to check that out, go to catholic psych dot com slash apply catholic psych dot com slash apply. We'll link to that in the show notes guys and you can do a free console. It's like a thing. It's a 30 minute phone call where you can just ask your questions and learn more and get all the details and.

You're not committed to anything. So definitely check that out. Thank you both so much for being here. Uh, two final questions. One, where can people find you online? How could they follow you? And then two, what [01:01:00] final advice and encouragement do you guys have for everyone listening, maybe is discouraged and struggled in relationships because of, you know, what they've been through in their own family.

Jackie: Um, so first you can find us, I mean, I'm on Instagram probably more than anything else, um, that's at Jackie Francois looks like Franco is, and then at Bobby's at Bobby it's. Dot angel, right? Bobby dot angel. And then we also have a podcast called conversations with Jackie and Bobby, where, because we love again, human formation.

So we also love talking about psychology and just people's testimonies, like miracles, kind of stuff like that. And

Bobby: yeah, our website is Jackie and Bobby dot com where it's got different Links to videos, blogs, and other resources. And then on YouTube, we've worked with Ascension Presents for a long time, which is where maybe people are familiar with us by our videos alongside Father Mike Schmitz and the CFRs and just talked a whole lot about relationships over the last Many years my my final [01:02:00] advice is is be not afraid something John Paul the second said over and over and over again because I think he knew like how easily fear paralyzes us and and those core fears and those fears of repeating the pain of my parents and the family I was I grew up in.

And Christ makes all things new. Be not afraid.

Jackie: My final thing would just be like, be patient with yourself. We're all on the journey. None of us are perfect. Like be, you know, give, give yourself grace and, and just be patient. Like you don't have to be perfect before coming into a relationship. As, as long as you're walking, you're, you're walking towards the goal.

You know, it's, we're just making movements even for me as a, as a mom with five kids, even in my own prayer life, you know, I used to read a ton. And I got it. you know, coffee shops and read theology of the body, like tons of it. And now I am a mom of five kids and I'm like, I have very little time. So my little, I'm like just little by little, right?

Poco a poco, like just little by little, like baby steps and just baby steps in your spiritual life, baby steps and like working [01:03:00] out like babysitting, like just move. A step at a time forward. So be patient with yourself and just make little steps every day.

Joey: Jackie and Bobby are amazing. I definitely encourage you guys to check out their content and especially check out catholicpsych.

com slash Bobby to see if maybe working with Bobby as a mentor is the right fit for you. He actually offers 30 minute free phone consults, and so you can go on his webpage, read about it. Maybe watch some videos. And if you want to talk with him, you can actually sign up to do a free consult to see if it's right for a few.

And he also said that if you tell him you listened to this podcast and you asked for a discount, he'd be willing to work with you for the first month to see if there's a way that he can discount his services. So again, I definitely encourage you guys to take him up on that generous offer and see if that's right for a few.

Again, go to catholicpsych. com slash Bobby, or just click the link in the show notes. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow on your podcast app, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whatever other app you use like YouTube. Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more that the [01:04:00] apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help.

And it only takes a few seconds. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We definitely appreciate it. That feedback and that also helps us to reach more people for other people to find us as well. In closing, always remember, you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction.

You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#135: Holidays with Divorced Parents? 5 Tips to Navigate Them

Whether holidays with your divorced or separated parents are new or you’ve done it numerous times, this episode is for you. In it, you’ll get 5 practical tips to better navigate the holidays in your broken family, so they’re less stressful and more enjoyable.

Get the Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

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Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

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Joey: [00:00:00] After my parents divorce, the holidays changed from joyful and magical to stressful and complicated. Pressure to choose between parents, a misled desire to make everyone happy, especially my parents, often at my expense. My emotions are other people being in control instead of me. Feeling alone and uncertain of how to deal with it all.

Sound familiar? If you can relate, know that you're not alone, especially if the wounds are fresh and tensions are high. Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panerelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

Whether holidays with your divorced or separated parents are new, or you've done it numerous times, this This episode is for you. You'll get five practical tips to better navigate the holidays in your broken family. So they're less stressful and more enjoyable. The content you're about to hear is the audio version of a PDF guide that we created for you.

Instead of making you guys download the PDF to get access [00:01:00] to the content, we just figured, why don't we deliver it to you through this podcast? And if you're the type of person who wants to read it and listen at the same time, you're obviously more than welcome to, to do so, to download the PDF, just go to restored ministry.

com slash holidays. It's totally free. Again, restoredministry. com slash holidays, or click the link in the show notes. But again, you do not have to do that. You're still going to benefit by just listening. The tips you're about to hear, they're really simple. They're really practical. And since they're so simple, it's easy to have a sophistication bias to overlook the importance of simple things.

So remember, it's not enough just to know this stuff. You have to do it to see the result of the holidays being less stressful and more enjoyable. In other words, knowing is not enough. Doing is better than knowing, especially in this case. And with that, here's the audio version of the guide. Five Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family.

Read and authored by Joey Pontarelli. Holiday Challenges in a Broken Family. After my parents divorce, the holidays changed from joyful and magical to stressful and [00:02:00] complicated. Often, I felt more excited about them being over than the holidays themselves. The holidays brought about real challenges. A sad, pit in the stomach reminder of my parents split and my family's brokenness.

Pressure to choose between parents and balance time amid many events. A misled desire to make everyone happy, especially my parents, often at my expense. My emotions or other people being in control instead of me. Feeling alone and uncertain of how to deal with it all. Sound familiar? If you can relate, know that you're not alone, especially if the wounds are fresh and tensions are high.

But it doesn't always have to be this way. In this guide, you'll get five tips to navigate the challenges and hopefully even begin enjoying the holidays again. Based on research, expert advice, and 20 years of experience that's helped thousands of people, the tips below are simple, Using them won't make your holidays look like a Hallmark movie, but they will improve the experience by putting you in the driver's [00:03:00] seat.

How to navigate the challenges. Tip one, stop trying to fix or please everyone. The quickest way to misery is trying to please or fix everyone. It's an impossible task that will always leave you feeling inadequate. It's not your responsibility to please everyone. It's not your job to clean up the mess inside your family.

It's not your job to fix your parents or their marriage. You can't change them or your family. Sure, your influence has its place, but it's not the same as being in control or responsible. Remember, you can love your parents and still acknowledge that they got themselves into this situation. As such, they need to work through it and deal with the consequences.

Around this time of the year especially, your parents or other people might expect you to put on a good face and be happy. That's not right. You should never have to pretend to be happy in the midst of a difficult situation. Again, you can't make everyone happy, nor should you try. When you try to make everyone happy, you'll likely make no one happy, [00:04:00] and yourself miserable.

Again, tip one, stop trying to fix or please everyone. Tip two, prepare for the stress and emotions. Holidays in a broken family can be stressful and emotionally exhausting. Don't let it surprise you. Expect it. Plan for it. If you don't, here's the danger. You might emotionally burn out and do things that you'll later regret in an attempt to fill your needs.

To avoid that, prioritize taking care of yourself. That's not selfish if it's aimed at allowing you to love well, treat others with respect, and be virtuous. Think ahead about the difficult emotions you might feel, perhaps even thinking back to last year if it's comparable. Have one or two quick ways to calm yourself if you feel anxious, or to experience some joy if you feel down and depressed.

For example, in the middle of parties that cause anxiety, don't hesitate to step away for a breather. Whatever you do, allow yourself to feel your feelings, work through them, pay attention to [00:05:00] them, and learn from them. Ignoring them or stuffing them away only makes things worse. The only way to heal and grow is by moving through those negative and messy emotions.

Your body and your emotions are naturally intertwined. As such, care for your body in these simple ways to feel better physically and emotionally. One, sleep. Sleep at least seven to eight hours per night according to sleep experts like Dr. Matthew Walker. Two, water. Drink half your body weight in ounces, such as if you weigh 150 pounds, drink 75 ounces per day according to health experts like Shawn Stevenson.

Typically that results in drinking half to a whole gallon per day, roughly 1. 75 to 3. 75 liters. 3. Exercise. Move your body, whether through walking, running, biking, bodyweight exercises, or sports. The endorphin release will help you feel better. [00:06:00] 4. Eat. Eat healthy, whole, unprocessed foods to feel your best.

Fun fact, according to trauma therapist Margaret Vasquez, eating good quality dark chocolate stimulates the release of endorphins that make you feel better. Similarly, the carbonation in sparkling water stimulates serotonin release, which makes you feel happier or better about yourself. If you're religious, don't forget to pray during this time.

Not only have experts found it calming, but God can give you strength during difficult times if you ask for help. He sees your pain and wants to be there for you. Know that he doesn't want it to be this way either. Trust that he's not finished with you. While divorce or separation is devastating, God can bring good even out of evil.

Perhaps you'll never see that in your family, but you can see it in your own life. Healthy distractions aren't bad. If you're constantly in situations or with people that drain you, you must have ways to revive yourself. [00:07:00] For me, quick ways look like listening to music or audiobooks, Playing sports or board games with friends or my family, watching good movies, having good conversations with my friends, walking outside for fresh air, watching a sunset, cooking meals, especially for family or friends.

While it's good to have alone time, it can be taken to an unhealthy extreme. Make sure you're not isolating yourself. If you've spent the majority of the holidays on your own without meaningful conversations with friends and person on the phone, or even through messaging, you're likely isolating yourself.

If you feel lonely, that's obviously a sign that you're isolated. Instead of waiting for someone to rescue you, take action. Invite a friend over or plan to meet up. Whatever the circumstances, decide to keep your calm. Intense moments, remember to take a breath, pause to think, and detach from the intensity of the emotions before you act.

By doing that, you'll make better decisions about what to do next, and save [00:08:00] yourself from regret. Again, tip two, prepare for the stress and emotions. Tip three, plan ahead and set boundaries with your parents. Think of it this way to stop a fire. You can either fight it as it arises reactively or proactively install sprinklers, smoke detectors, and fire extinguishers.

Time with your parents is no different. Making a plan proactively does require some time and effort, but it's a smart investment that it reduces stress, sets expectations and protects you. A good plan will naturally include when you'll see your parents and for how long. It will also set healthy boundaries with your parents informing them how to treat you.

When it comes to the holidays, it's okay to lay down those rules with your parents. For example, you can tell your dad that you won't talk to him about your mom or vice versa. Boundaries communicated in advance also give people the option to opt out of interacting with you, which prevents drama. By the way, don't feel guilty for [00:09:00] setting boundaries.

If you're not used to this, it might feel mean. That's not true. Boundaries are a sign of a healthy person. Listen to that again. Imagine not having boundaries and letting anyone do whatever they want to you that would be extremely unhealthy and end very badly for you. And them. Boundaries aren't only good for you, but also for your parents.

It'll help you have a healthier relationship with them. If you have kids, make sure to protect them. Don't sacrifice your kids' sanity just to please your relatives or parents. Your immediate family is most important now. For more on boundaries, listen to episode 36 of the Restored podcast@restoredministry.com slash 36.

Don't only set boundaries, but be ready to enforce them. If you tell someone this is the boundary and they break it, there need to be consequences without them, they'll ignore your boundaries next time. As part of your preparation, be ready for the predictable [00:10:00] circumstances that will arise, such as a conflict with a specific relative, your dad or mom bringing their new partner to the party, or whatever else.

Prepare for how you'll avoid those situations, or how you'll handle them, such as, when your dad introduces his new girlfriend, simply say, Hi. I'm Joey. When that overbearing relative starts pelting you with questions, say, I'm sorry, I need to run to the bathroom. When your mom starts bad mouthing your dad, politely excuse yourself to grab food.

It's crucial to remember that spending time with one parent is not a betrayal of the other. Healthy relationships with both are essential. Many people like us benefit from spending separate days with each parent. By spending Christmas Eve with your dad and Christmas Day with your mom, here are the benefits.

1. It allows you to focus on each parent without, hopefully, worrying about the other. 2. It gives each parent assurance that they're going to have uninterrupted time with you. 3. You can avoid burning out. If siblings are part of the [00:11:00] equation, include them in the planning process. Although the approach may vary depending on the nature of those sibling relationships.

Hopefully, you can approach the holidays as a team. To start, create a group chat and start asking good questions to get the discussion going. If things get stuck, make a plan for yourself, share it, and ask them what they think. Although a good plan is helpful, no plan is perfect. Don't plan every minute.

Also, allow some flexibility in your plan in case things change. A back up plan if things go badly is smart too, such as staying with relatives or friends if the time with your family implodes. But what if your relationship with your parents is toxic? If it's to the extent that you can't see your mom or dad That's rough.

I'm so sorry. I hate that you're going through that. In that case, what can you do to experience some sort of community instead of your family? That might look like going to a friend's house or even having friends over to your place. You'd be surprised by how happy it makes other people to host or receive an invitation during the [00:12:00] holidays.

Ideally, choose friends or a family that models what it means to be a true and good family, the kind you want for your future. By the way, if you live at home with one parent, a plan like this is extra difficult. Do what's within your power to set boundaries. You might be able to spend a little extra time with the parent that doesn't live at home.

In that case, speak with your parent who does live at home, setting that expectation and explaining why you'll be spending a little more time with your other parent. To solidify your plan and boundaries, write it down, whether on paper, an app, or a calendar. Feel free to copy this Google Doc schedule template and fill in your details.

You can get that by downloading this PDF. Again, tip three, plan ahead and set boundaries with your parents. Tip four, communicate the plan. By far, this is the most difficult tip. A fair amount of you will not complete it. Why? It's scary and uncomfortable. I get it, I've been there. Perhaps you've never stood up for yourself like this, or you're [00:13:00] unsure how your parents will respond.

Just remember that an action has a cost, too. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten. You deserve better. When communicating, it's best to do it well ahead of time. Already cutting it close? Don't worry. Better late than never. In crafting how you want to communicate, follow the advice of speaker and author Donald Miller.

First, figure out what you want to say, such as the main points and order. Then, figure out how you want to say it, such as the words you'll use in the form of communication. In figuring out what to say, a few tips. Lead with your intentions, such as affirming that you want to see your parents and spend time with them.

Make sure they know they're part of the plan. You have every right to express your feelings to your parents. Be honest and tell them your needs. Brutal honesty and vulnerability might not give them warm, fuzzy feelings, but hopefully they'll respect you for your honesty. And if they don't, at least you know that you spoke [00:14:00] your truth.

Naturally, this assumes you're in a good spot where you have at least a decent relationship with your parents and you can talk to them. Sometimes that isn't the case. In solving how to say it, some things to consider. In person is best, video or phone is next, then voice memo, and finally email or text is last.

At other times a letter is most effective. Start with I'm reaching out to set expectations and make sure we spend time together. Be real saying things like, I love you, but it can be really hard around the holidays to please you both and not offend you. I need you to understand my decisions, my boundaries, and that the tension in our family makes it difficult to enjoy the holidays.

If you can't see both parents, give the reason why. At least in a diplomatic way, focusing more on yourself than them. Such as, I can't afford it. It's too exhausting for me right now. It's too much on me or my [00:15:00] family. Or, I need a break this year. What if your parents get upset? Stay calm. Try to display empathy by placing yourself in their shoes, yet keep your boundaries.

Keep in mind that your parents are learning to navigate the holidays too, so give them some grace. Then, speak the truth by saying what you're thinking and feeling. As part of that conversation, ask good questions. When people make unreasonable requests, FBI negotiator Chris Voss suggests asking the question, How am I supposed to do that?

The intent behind the question is to find an answer. But often, the request made is so difficult or impossible that the person who made it feels stumped by the question. You can also ask questions aimed at understanding and empathy, such as, In your mind, what did you expect this year? Or, If you were in my shoes, what would you do if your mom and dad were asking what you are right now?

Whatever happens, don't allow someone to take control of your plan [00:16:00] and adapt it at your expense. For example, if you get a request from your dad to attend a party or see him during the time you're spending with your mom, you can simply point to the plan and remind him of it. Learn from it all too. Don't feel the need to have the perfect plan or perfectly execute the plan.

Instead, look at it as a sort of experiment to find the right balance between your parents. You can then make changes next year based on what you learn. See it also as an opportunity to become a better, stronger person. Think about the lessons you can use in the future, especially to build your own family.

To help, my team and I have developed copy and paste templates here to communicate with your parents via text, voice memo, email, phone call, video call, or even a letter. You can get those templates by downloading the PDF. Again, tip 4, communicate the plan. Tip 5, enjoy the holidays. Ironically, forgetting to enjoy the holidays is easier than it sounds.

Creating new traditions, especially if you're married or soon will [00:17:00] be, is a great way to reset and redefine the holidays. Serving others, such as the poorer, elderly, and nursing homes, is another way to break the cycle with selflessness. If you're like me, spending time with your friends makes the holidays much more enjoyable, too.

While it's good to spend time with your parents, make sure you block out some time to spend with your friends, too. So often, since spending time with both parents separately can be so time consuming, our other relationships suffer. Do what you can to plan some time with those people that you like to see.

The extra effort will pay off. Keep in mind that you might need to lower your expectations for the holidays, unfortunately. Holiday traditions in your family might die because of the divorce. You might not feel the same joy, safety, and security with your parents anymore. That's hard to swallow. In the midst of that, try to focus on the deeper meaning of the holiday.

For example, Christmas is a time to delve into the mind boggling mystery of God becoming a vulnerable, weak, human baby. Don't let the [00:18:00] stress and challenges in your life Distract you from things like that. Again, tip five, enjoy the holidays. Improve how you handle the holidays in your broken family. If you do what you've always done for the holidays, you'll get what you've always gotten.

As a result, the stress and challenges from your broken family can easily overwhelm you and cause you to do things that you'll later regret. But there is a better way. If you execute the tips in this recording, even though some are uncomfortable, you'll be better equipped to navigate this time of year and benefit in many ways.

Save yourself from trying to please or fix everyone. Avoid burning out from the stress and difficult emotions. Stay in control by planning time with your parents. Setting expectations and boundaries that protect you and your relationships. Experience relief, feel less alone, and perhaps even enjoy the holidays again.

In the end, instead of being controlled by your emotions or the demands of others, you'll be in control. Remember, you're not alone, [00:19:00] and you're not doomed to experience the holidays like this forever. We're here to guide you through the messiness. Know someone who would benefit from this guide? If you want, share it with them.

Here are a few resources to further help you navigate the holidays and the other challenges stemming from your parents divorce or the breakdown of your family. Podcasts. Restored, helping children of divorce. Ranked in the top 20 podcasts on divorce, the Restored podcast exists for teens and young adults from divorce or broken families.

On it, we feature stories and expert advice on how to navigate the challenges in your family and even find healing so you can break the cycle. Listen now at restoredministry. com slash podcast. Community. Restored's online community. If you'd like a private place to talk about the challenges that you face in your broken family, join our private and free online community built for people like us.

It'll help you feel less alone, get advice from people who've been through your experiences, and challenge you to grow into a [00:20:00] better, stronger person. Join at restoredministry. com slash community. Course. Broken to whole, tactics to heal from your parents divorce or broken marriage. In just two hours of short videos, learn 17 years worth of lessons from a trauma therapist who's helped hundreds heal.

By taking the free course, you'll benefit in numerous ways. Identify the root cause of your struggles. Learn why the trauma of your parents divorce or family dysfunction is so damaging. Feel validated and less alone in your struggles. Get simple tools and tactics to heal. understand and better navigate your emotions, build healthy relationships and a better life, avoid passing your brokenness onto the people you love the most.

Sign up for free at restoredministry. com slash broken to whole book. It's Not Your Fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents to force. Nobody shows teens and young adults from broken families how to handle all the [00:21:00] pain and problems that stem from their family's breakdown.

Without guidance, they feel alone and continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping, relationship struggles, and more. It's Not Your Fault features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges they face. After reading it, teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems, healing tactics to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God.

How to make important decisions about their future by the book or get the first chapters for free at restored ministry. com slash books. Guys. I really hope that that helped you. My challenge to you is this take action, schedule a time this week or this weekend to plan out the holidays. 20 to 30 minutes is probably enough, but if you can't do that, do 10 to 15 minutes of planning, it's really going to help and to help [00:22:00] in that process.

You're welcome to download the PDF guide, five tips to navigate the holidays easily. In a broken family, you can do that at restored ministry. com slash holidays, or by clicking the link in the show notes. Again, it's totally free and you already heard the content in this episode, but perhaps you want the digital version.

So you can reference it at a later date, or maybe share it with someone like a friend or a sibling. And by downloading it, you're also going to get. Yes. Um, and you can also use this to get access to some free resources that come along with it, like a worksheet to plan out your time with your parents.

Also a copy and paste template that you can edit to communicate with your parents via message or a call or whatever way. Again, that's all restored ministry. com slash holidays. Those bonuses are within the PDF themself and you can get all that at restored ministry. com such holidays or by clicking the link in the show notes.

Overall, guys, I just hope that the holidays are less stressful and more enjoyable for you. Hang in there, I know this can be a really difficult time of the year. That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever podcast app that you use.

Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future [00:23:00] episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help, and it only takes a few seconds. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We definitely appreciate the feedback and also the feedback.

That helps people find the podcast in closing. Always remember, you're not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we're here to help and keep in mind the words of CS Lewis, who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#134: Holidays After Your Parents’ Divorce: What Nobody Tells You | Danielle

While the rest of the world is filled with holiday cheer, people like us from divorced or broken families usually feel very differently. While you can’t magically make the holidays happy and drama-free, what if there was a way to make them less stressful and more enjoyable? 

That’s what we’ll discuss in this episode, plus:

1. The challenges that come from navigating 3 Christmases

2. Some typical fears and barriers that complicate the holidays and tips to handle them

3. A FREE resource to help you navigate the holidays, so they’re less stressful and more enjoyable

Get the Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

===

Danielle: [00:00:00] The holidays always felt chaotic. That must be just what this time of year is about is just drama and chaos.

Joey: If I go over and choose to spend this Christmas day with dad, then mom's kind of on her own.

Danielle: Maybe I shouldn't go do two Christmases on the same day. Maybe I should space them out and say that is not a good day for me, but if that's a great day for y'all, how about I join in on like a phone call?

I think both of my parents wanted me to have a good time and be happy and celebrate, um, but there was also a little layer of sadness that. They weren't all together.

Joey: Why are we doing this all in the first place? Is it just to like buy like materialistic kind of empty gifts for whatever reason? Or is there something deeper?

Danielle: The chaos that I've felt from this in the past doesn't have to be the way I choose to move forward. And that has actually been really kind of cool.

Joey: Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better [00:01:00] life.

The My guest today is Danielle. Danielle lives in Central Florida and works as an occupational therapist. As a child of divorce, Danielle has found great healing in faith, counseling, and support groups, and she hopes that her story may help others as they continue on in their journey towards healing and wholeness.

Now, while the rest of the world is filled with holiday cheer, people like us who come from divorced or broken families usually feel very differently. Navigating the holidays for us is just really complicated and brings a ton of emotions along with it. And while you can't magically make the holidays happy and drama free, what if there was a way To make them less stressful and more enjoyable.

That's what we discussed in this episode. Plus we talk about the challenges that come from navigating three Christmases or perhaps more in your case, how you're not alone if you feel guilty for spending time with one parent, but not the other on a particular holiday, how feeling sad is actually okay, even though we often run from it.

And we talk about some typical fears and barriers that complicate the holidays and some tips to handle them as well. And so if you dread the holidays or you just want to make [00:02:00] them less stressful and more enjoyable. This episode is for you. Before we dive into the conversation, you'll hear Danielle and me talk about our holiday guide.

Our holiday guide is a beautifully designed PDF that contains five tips, really practical tips, to help you better navigate the holidays in a broken family. It's totally free and you get, again, really practical advice you're not going to hear anywhere else. A worksheet to plan out your time with your parents, a copy and paste template that you can edit for communicating with your parents, whether that's through a phone call or Or a message.

And then most of all, the guide will just help you feel less alone and more in control when the holidays hit. And so if you want to get that guide, go to restored ministry. com slash holidays, or just click the link in the show notes, I'll remind you guys at the end as well. And with that,

Microphone (2- ATR USB microphone) & UT-VID 00K0519341: here's our conversation.

Joey: Daniel. So good to have you on the show.

Thanks for being here.

Danielle: You're welcome. Thanks for having me. I feel grateful to get to be here and just get to chat with you.

Joey: Yeah, no, when we've had previous chats, I was, yeah, just really impressed with you and I wanted to bring you on because I know you've had to [00:03:00] navigate the holidays. You are no stranger to this.

So I thought it was good to kind of bring you on. chat about it and hopefully offer some guidance to anyone out there who's just really struggling with this whole holiday season, the upcoming holiday season, wherever we're at when they're listening to it. And, uh, so I wanted to start with a little bit of maybe context setting.

So obviously we're going to get into kind of the challenges with the holidays, some solutions that we've maybe both have found helpful and then all that. But before we get there, I'm curious, yeah, set the scene a little bit to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, like What type of kind of family gatherings you guys have and how many parents are you navigating?

Set parents, all of that.

Danielle: Yeah. So, um, growing up I had a relationship with my dad's grandparents, so they were like a separate home and then my mom was one and then my mom's side of the family. So. A typical Christmas looked like at least three Christmases. Um, and then typical Thanksgiving looked like whoever, whenever, however, it was, um, kind of, that one was a [00:04:00] little bit more of the, like, I don't want to say like the lesser holiday, but that was the one that as a family, we didn't put a ton of emphasis on, but Christmas definitely looked like.

Each weekend, there was something going on. There were different groups of people to buy gifts for. Later in my life, um, I had the opportunity to reconnect with my dad. And so then that was another Christmas on top of that other one. So it ended up being a round four. I had a season as well where my dad and my stepmom, that was a Christmas together.

Um, and so that was newer to navigate as well on some of those expectations. So it. Had for me some overwhelming and also a little bit of excitement that you had all this extra time and other people to get to see, but at the same time, I would say overwhelming was the feeling of it. Whenever Christmas would come around, there was, I felt like there was a lot of places to go and not enough of me to go around to everyone.

Joey: Totally. I love the way you said that, like overwhelming, not enough here to go around. Um, someone said it recently, like, um, too much [00:05:00] bread, not enough, like jam or something.

Danielle: Yeah. That'd be so real. Exactly.

Joey: Yeah. And no, no. And part of the reason I wanted to have the conversation with you is because you've had so many different dynamics of, you know, like myself, I actually haven't had to navigate the step family dynamic.

I've had close friends of mine. I've walked with people who have, but, but you certainly have. So this is great that we're as hard as that is, this is great that we're able to offer. You know, you're able to offer some wisdom to everyone listening. So man, that's a lot of Christmases. And then one of the points that we talk about when this comes up, the holidays and everything is that because it feels so overwhelming, it's easy to not like think about it, to just put it off.

And then when we don't think about it, when we don't put like a plan in place and communicate that plan, which is relatively simple, but it can be hard, then it can get even more overwhelming and more stressful. Did you experience that?

Danielle: One hundred percent, I think it's. I feel like I thought about a lot of the conversations I wanted to have, um, when I was, I would say when I was younger, so my, my step parents [00:06:00] didn't come in until like the, my last year of high school, um, or my step mom and my dad.

Um, so for me, I didn't know that I could say something. I just felt honored to get invited. So I didn't speak up a ton if that makes any sense on what would work for me or what wouldn't work. Um, it just kind of was something like I should make it happen. And then a little bit more. In my 20s, I didn't feel again.

I didn't know that I could voice a little bit more of what I needed and what those holidays needed to look like

Joey: totally. And it's a great point that you make that I think it does change. Like, when you're in high school, you're kind of in one mode. Um, you're often just going along with parents and you, yeah, certainly want to set healthy boundaries, but there's a little bit of like a limit, especially depending on how like your parents react to those boundaries.

When you get to college is a little bit more autonomy, a little bit more freedom distance between you and your parents. Um, Um, but even then, you know, we're kind of along for the ride, but then once you kind of move it on your own, maybe that's more of a distinguishing factor than just being a young adult after college.

But, um, yeah, I think that can certainly be the case [00:07:00] here. Not, not everyone goes to college, of course, but, uh, but yeah, being out on your own, I think can be like a new level of challenge. So I think there's like unique challenges in each of those, what was of those kind of three scenarios, which was the most challenging for you, would you say high school, college, or kind of the young adult?

Phase or did they all have their own kind of

Danielle: young adult, the young adults in the hardest. I don't like, I don't know about you, but like, this is going to sound a little like at least in high school, I was like, okay, I know the groove. And then in college there were built in breaks. Um, but young adult felt a little more challenging because it was the first time I felt like I had to decide what was right for me.

I don't want to say present that but then bring that into my family situation. Yeah. And that's like hard. I feel like on two levels, right? Because there's the one of like, okay, well, I'm like changing the way things have been if I do something different. Um, but then on like a little bit of a deeper side, it was kind of stopping and saying, okay, what do I want Christmas to look like?

Like, what do I want Thanksgiving to look like? And that can feel Really [00:08:00] big. And, um, I'm learning to be a little bit more of a dreamer and give myself space where I can like. You know, what could that look like? And I don't know if other people like us have a little bit of a struggle with that, where you're like, there's endless possibilities.

So what do I want this season to look like? And how do I want to communicate that to my family? I would, I would say is a huge

Joey: piece. I can totally relate with that. And I, um, yeah, it's like, what I hear you saying is when you're a young adult, there's instead of like, just going along for the ride sort of thing.

Now you are the one making the decisions and kind of somewhat of like imposing your will on the situation. And if. Especially maybe your wish, desire, dream, whatever isn't what a parent wants or your family wants. And then it introduces conflict, which is never fun. Um, especially when things are like when the conflict isn't healthy.

And so I totally get that. So I'm curious, like maybe talk a little bit more about that. What were some of the challenges and Maybe the emotions that went along with those challenges, um, in addition to what you've shared so far when it came to navigating the holidays as a [00:09:00] young adult or any other point.

Danielle: Yeah, I would, I would say the, the frustration that I felt with the holidays, and I think you kind of talk about it a little bit is emotional exhaustion. So I would feel like, I don't know if you remember, there is a cartoon character, the Tasmanian devil, and he would like, it would be this really. Pretty seen.

And then you'd see him just come like spinning in and things would get like all torn up and then he would stop and he would kind of look like, Oh wait, what happened? And then he would like spin off again. Um, and I wouldn't say that's exactly how I felt, but it would feel more like a tornado. It would feel like I would kind of get caught up in the holiday season.

It would feel very chaotic and it would feel like I didn't really know what other people were expecting from me. I didn't know if I could be in all those places, but let me just go along for the ride and make myself kind of. Experience. It was a lot of the, I would say probably that like beginning of young adult ages.

Cause that was just kind of the norm. Like the holidays always felt chaotic. So why would that feel any different? That must be just what this time of year is about is just [00:10:00] drama and chaos. And maybe you're just feeling a little stressed and that's just a part of it. And then I didn't realize that I could kind of pivot out of that and turn into something where I got to kind of, how were you talking about, like having a little bit more autonomy that I could say, Hey, maybe that's too much for me to do in one day.

You know, maybe I shouldn't go do two Christmases on the same day. Maybe we should like, maybe I should space them out and say that is not a good day for me, but if that's a great day for y'all, how about I join in on like a phone call or like a FaceTime call to say, Hey, for a minute, instead of physically being in that same room.

Joey: I like that.

Danielle: So I would say it was a shift from like, what felt like chaos into a little bit more calm and a little bit more peace for that time of the year.

Joey: I love that. And I want to go deeper into that. I, um, one of the things I wanted to add for anyone, maybe newly married and has maybe a baby or a couple of kids too, that adds like a new layer to it as well.

Cause I remember with me, you kind of realize how, like in a new way, how exhausting it can be to do two [00:11:00] Christmases, three Christmases, like whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. And then you bring kids along and it's like, my goodness, this is exhausting for them as well. And so that's, that was a little bit more of a wake up call, I think for me too.

Cause I was like you too. I just kind of put my head down, just got through it. And then thankfully before kids, but, um, especially with kids, it was like, wow, okay. I can't like, Do this to other people, I need to set some healthy boundaries even more so than I had in the past. And so totally tracking with you there.

I'm curious, maybe I know we're talking about like our experiences through this, but what did you see in the people around you? What kind of negative impact did all these like challenges and drama and like all these events going on, whatever else we want to add, have maybe on other people around you, whether that's your siblings or your parents.

I'm just curious what you observed there.

Danielle: Yeah, I think a little bit for my parents, it would be maybe like some comparison of like, well, how was that experience with them? And I, it could have been like the ones that I was seeing it through, but sometimes there might be comments that I would take as hurtful of like, Oh, it sounds like [00:12:00] you had a really good time with them with a little bit of a negative undertone.

And again, I think both of my parents wanted me to have a good time and be happy and celebrate. Um, but there was also a little layer of sadness that. They weren't all together. I know I felt a little layer of that sadness when we were coming together. To be quite honest, I was the one who was bouncing between all of the places.

So I, in chatting with just some like siblings in that sense, they, they would kind of express when we would have two Christmases, that would be like, Oh yeah, we have, you know, it's, it's a lot. The holidays are crazy. Um, and even now as adults, when we'll kind of talk about it, there's, I would say a little bit of like an unspoken thing.

Yeah. Of like, Hey, the holidays are just going to be crazy. How about we catch up in like January or we catch up in like do something beforehand is just kind of understood. Cause they, they also have other sets of sibling, like other sets of parents and it's branched a little bit more. So I would say their experience has been, I haven't gotten to talk directly about them with it.

So that would actually be a really great thing to get to do. Um, if that [00:13:00] door, when that door opens. I would say just kind of this rollercoaster that we're on a little bit together of like, okay, it was nice to see you. Like, great to see you too. We've, we've got like a few others that we got to go see as well.

So maybe not quite like a receiving line at a wedding, but something where you're just kind of moving through the process a little quickly.

Joey: Totally. No, I totally get that. There's not as much depth. It's more like width or breadth. And yeah, I'm, I'm with you there. You made me think of something that I think a lot of parents experience, um, which is almost like a rivalry between the families or between children.

You know, this parent and that parent, like thinking like, Oh, well, if I give the kids more gifts, then they'll want to come to this side of the family or, you know, whatever it might be. And then, you know, one parent might have more resources and money to do that. Another one might not. So it makes them feel like they're not able to give as great of an experience.

So definitely a lot of tricky dynamics, you know, just want to acknowledge for the parents too. But, um, but for us, I think I know in some ways, like. Yeah, I felt guilty. It's like, [00:14:00] okay, if I go over and choose to spend this Christmas day or Christmas Eve with dad, then mom's kind of on her own or, you know, vice versa.

And it's just like, you can never really please everyone. And there's always someone kind of missing out. So that certainly, um, that heaviness that you mentioned, I can relate to. And I think it, it is unfortunate. And, and that's where I think, you know, some planning ahead and setting expectations and having like somewhat of a plan to just, Connect with each parent if you can in some way, even if it's simple and you know, assuming you're on like good terms, then I think it can bring like a lot of peace that it's like, okay, I'm not neglecting them.

It's just, this isn't their time right now. Their time will be the next day or coming up soon.

Danielle: Yeah. And I think you bring up a great point with that too, Joey, when you were talking about like. It's their time and there can be a little bit of rivalry. And if I spend one, I would sometimes feel that way.

Like if I spend this time at my dad's grandparent's house and not with my mom on this Christmas holiday, then I would internally put this pressure of like, well, then the time I'm with her has to be extra great, you know? Cause she'll feel bad. So I need to [00:15:00] make that like a really special time, which no one put that pressure on me.

It was just a lie and internal pressure that I was building up. For myself, you know, like, okay, I need to bring my a game or, you know, help make it great to help cover up this gap that it's so sad that we're not all together instead of just enjoying the time that I have with them. And this is going to sound like let the sadness be there.

It doesn't have to be the whole piece, but. It's, it's okay if someone feels uncomfortable, it's okay if I feel slightly uncomfortable, it's okay if there's a little bit of sadness that not everyone's together because that is a consequence of divorce, right? It's a death of the love my parents shared together and our parent, like, it's Anyone who is sick has experienced divorce.

That's a piece that's present. And just like you would grieve a family member who's not there on Christmas and you feel sad. I think it's okay to to touch that place. I don't think it's okay to live there the whole season. I don't think it's okay to avoid that whole season, but it's I think that was something I ran from a lot, was just [00:16:00] that, like, okay, well, we can't feel sad about this instead of kind of just acknowledging it for a minute and then, or acknowledging it in a, in a healthy, appropriate way, and then moving on and enjoying what Christmas is today, or what Thanksgiving is today, or what the holidays are today.

Joey: That's so true. Like, especially, yeah, in our culture today, we tend to look at like the quote unquote negative emotions, like the things that feel ucky and uncomfortable. And we try to just like, get out of them, run from them. But there's something about like, kind of just letting it happen, sitting in the midst of it.

That's so powerful. I love that you brought that up. My daughter tonight, it was so funny. Lucy, she, um, she's three now. And, um, my son John Paul is four months old and, um, he was crying and I was like just about to get him out of the car. And so, but Lucy was next to him when he was crying and she was like, had a, I think her hand on his head.

And she was saying, it's okay to feel sad, buddy. Like so profound. I'm like, wow, something like, thank God. Like this, she knows that. Like, um, and I think it, you know, it applies here too. Like it's, it's okay [00:17:00] to like feel sad. It's okay. You don't need to like try to extinguish that or run from it. Like you said so well, you can kind of just be in the midst of it.

And in the business world, one of the concepts that's kind of helped me that relates here is like you're in any career, really, there's always like so many problems to solve and things to like deal with. And. Just like we're talking about, it can be overwhelming. And so this whole idea of like, you know, in, in business or in any sort of like leadership, you're kind of faced with like putting out fires, right?

You're like the fireman, firewoman. And, um, this whole idea that like, well, sometimes some fires have to burn. And one of the things I learned early on was like, um, yeah, sometimes like the small fires especially have to burn. Like we just have to let those burn, like we don't need to put them on and solve every situation, which for, uh, for people like us who are more type A that's hard, but, uh, but I think there is a bit of surrender like in that, that can bring a lot of peace too.

So it is an interesting like dichotomy though, kind of what we're all saying here, what we're saying here is like, between like kind of taking charge and control and having a plan and communicating that plan. But at the same time, like having like the flexibility and the openness and the [00:18:00] surrender of like, well, Everything might not go according to my plan.

And if it doesn't, like, am I going to be destroyed or can I be adaptable and just be like, you know, that's okay. Like there's something good that can come out of even this situation. So it's interesting dynamic between like flexibility and having like some boundaries in a plan. Any thoughts on any of that?

Danielle: Yes. Cause it's, um, I think of it, I think there's a phrase that's like. Essentially, you're creating a plan and you're holding it very loosely, if that makes any sense. So there is something in place, but if that alters and changes, it's, it's okay to let it pivot to a degree is at least kind of what I'm learning to experience instead of holding so tight to every tradition that needs to be kept a certain way or on the flip side, not caring about anything and not voicing any of the things that I would like to see happen during the holidays, for sure.

Sure. This is going to sound really silly, but one year I did, um, and probably a little type a, so if, uh, if anyone is not this way, like I respect you and I totally feel Billy on that. Um, but there was one [00:19:00] year I actually did like an itinerary cause I was coming home for a week and I just needed it. So I felt organized with like how things were going to be, but it actually was super helpful.

Um, For my mom and extended family members that I was going to see, I just kind of like shot it out with a little email on it that said, like, it's okay if these plans change, but this was just some of the things that we talked about wanting to do. And so I started putting them on different spaces in the calendar.

It's okay if they shift, but I just wanted you to know that I, I heard you and I care about spending time with you and I'm looking forward to it. So I just wanted to put those things that we talked about that were important on a calendar. Please feel free to adjust it. How you need to, um, and so that at least for me was really helpful, but that's kind of what I mean by the idea of like, make a plan, but hold it loosely.

It's kind of like, like something that you can kind of piecemeal and move around a little bit if you need to. But you have the, like the blocks in place and you have the foundation in place a little bit.

Joey: Okay. Yeah. Almost like a Lego, like build.

Danielle: Thank you. Legos. Yes. Thank you. [00:20:00] Like you're building the Legos and it's okay if the details change up a little bit, but you've got the idea.

Yeah.

Joey: Yeah. Wow. No, I can relate. And I think as much as you and I are like type A, so I'm sorry for like turning some people off to this, but I think there, there is so much of a benefit to kind of bringing out maybe that part of your personality that you don't use often of like being more of a planner.

Cause it does bring a lot of, a lot of peace and structure and helps set expectations. Cause I think that part of the reason I've seen the holidays can be so tricky is like everyone has their own idea of what's going to happen. And then when the expectations aren't met. Naturally, disappointment follows.

And then if disappointment like broods for long enough, resentment starts to seep in and that can be really devastating for any sort of relationship, especially relationships with our parents. And so I think it's, yeah, setting those expectations, like we have been talking about, it's like really, really huge.

And, and that's actually, you know, in the guide that we're going to talk about in a second, um, that's the. Kind of itinerary planning is something we definitely recommend. And I remember after we built the guide, I just like used the [00:21:00] tips and the resources in it to plan out the holiday for myself. And it was great.

It was like really helpful. I was like, this is awesome. And not, it wasn't just me who built it. It was our team too. I, my face is on it so that if anyone's head gets chopped off, it's my head, but it's, but, uh, but it was certainly a team effort and definitely pulled on wisdom from a lot of different people.

But anyway, uh, I think whether you're a planner or not being a planner for this thing, this season, I think is going to only benefit you.

Danielle: Absolutely. Yeah. And if you're not a planner too, like for me, it's a lot harder to just sit and be still in some of those moments. So I'd say like, if someone who's listening is not a planner, like, Lean into that non planning part of you, because there may be some really beautiful spontaneous moments that someone else in your family who is a planner, like, helped create space for, and you can call your family into attention for that.

We have a family member who is really good at kind of just creating some fun moments that I could not because I just don't work that way. When [00:22:00] they, when they do, they just bring such light and such levity and some jovialness. So if that's you, lean into that strength. If you're just feeling in that moment, like, this is a time we need to turn on a movie and watch it, or we need to sing, or going and looking at Christmas lights sounds really fun right now.

Let's go get in the car and go do that. That's okay to also bring that out. In this time as well,

Joey: I love that. And what I hear you saying too, is it's okay to have, like, if you're not a planner, a simple plan, like just the main pieces, the main like components of the building that you're trying to build.

You don't need to have like every detail in the furniture, like figured out. It's like, okay. Go do that a little bit. That that's no. That that's really helpful. And even if, if you are a type A, just make sure you put in like some flex time in your schedule, like spontaneous time,

Danielle: 100 percent write it in there.

It's really good. It's super helpful. We get to keep practicing. It's very, I

Joey: love it. I love it. So I'm curious, uh, Danielle, how did you find out about the, the holiday guide?

Danielle: I think, so I had read it in your book, it's not your fault. [00:23:00] And then I think I listened to a podcast similar to like this one where you would have the tip guide.

And I was like, I need to apply this this year. Like I've heard it. Let me just apply it. Let me see how it actually, how it actually works. And that's, that's how I found out about it.

Joey: I love it. That's awesome. And I think that's it. Like it's really, it's simple. It's not super complicated, but, um, it can be hard to execute on because there's just a lot of like emotional resistance.

So I'm curious, like what sort of resistance did you maybe face before and doing some of this stuff? You know, it's not like we invented this stuff. We're just kind of saying like, here are the things that you need to do that will make the holidays more enjoyable, less stressful, less overwhelming. So I'm just curious if there was any resistance, even with like using the guide or kind of putting the tips into action.

Danielle: Absolutely. I. I would say my biggest resistance was probably a little bit of pride in there of like, okay, well, I know how to work this, so I, I've got it figured out. I don't need to jump into it. Some of it was, well, it's too simple. Could it really work? You know, so a little bit of doubt in there. [00:24:00] And then I would say, I think the other one, and I've heard someone say this before, a little bit of the unknown, right?

Like if I, if I step in and I try something different, how much am I going to rock the boat? I know what this discomfort is like, and it's consistent. This other thing is so unknown. What is that jump going to look like? So a little bit of fear in there too. I would say were some emotions I was journaling through and just, I think finally just came to a head of like, I should just try at least a couple of these things.

They seem like good ideas. Yeah.

Joey: Cool. No, I love it. And I get all of those, like, yeah, I'm pretty good at pride. So I can relate to that. And, and the whole, um, I forget the term for this, but like, when we think less of things that are simple or sophistication bias, sophistication bias, where it's like, Oh, you know, It's so simple.

I couldn't really be effective and helpful. And yeah, I think like when I've been challenged in those situations and I do the thing, I'm like, wow, okay, this is great. Even like we talked previously, I think about atomic habits, the Jim Clare book. Yeah. And like the whole [00:25:00] idea in that book is that the 1 percent improvement, which is like, really?

Like 1%? I want like 80 percent or a hundred percent. I'm actually really smart and I can do that.

Danielle: Exactly. Change myself overnight. It's going to be great. Like, yeah.

Joey: I get it all planned out in my head. It's perfect. And then it doesn't happen. But no, I think that sophistication bias is super real. So I'm glad you brought that up.

And then the unknown too. Yeah, it is scary, especially some people have a little bit of a track record with like putting boundaries in place with their family. Others don't. And so I think it's definitely scarier for people who are just starting. That for the first time, if there's a little bit of a track record and they speak up, then there's a little bit of, Oh, okay.

The parents saw this come in siblings, family, relatives, because relatives who I know we haven't really talked about them as much, but that can be like another like aunts and uncles and people who, who love you, who want to see you, who it's like a lot of the time, it's just Good desires. I know there can be some drama in there, maybe some twisted desires at times, but yeah, I think like a lot of it is at the core is a good desire.

They just want to be [00:26:00] with you. So just want to acknowledge that for a second, but, um, yeah, no, that's, that's really good. Um, any other resistance or barriers that you hit on those super well? You know, the pride, the kind of simplicity, so sophistication, bias, the unknown, and um, I forget what the other one was, but that was a good point too.

Danielle: No worries. I think those are all the ones I've got, I've got for right now, but if I think of any others, I'll, I'll let you know.

Joey: No, I love it. And um, what about the guide itself was most helpful, would you say, for, for you in particular?

Danielle: I would say for me, like the, the big highlight one that I came up with, um, I am an evangelical Christian.

And I know not everyone listening is, but. I would get so caught up in Christmas and starting to like, I wouldn't necessarily say dread it, but not embracing it. And there's a piece in the guide where you talk about coming to God and praying to God, but also like recognizing it as a time for celebration.

And that is such a great gift, right? Like I get, this is a time where in my faith belief, the God of the universe chose to wrap himself in flesh and walk among us [00:27:00] so that he would He would suffer in the way I would, he would feel what I did so that in those moments when I'm walking around years and years later, I can know that the God I'm talking to has felt with me, has walked with me and has experienced what I'm experiencing right now on a deeper level than I am.

And that is just such a gift. And that is something that has given hope and peace and joy, not at this time of the year, but throughout the year. So it's such a beautiful way to end our church, like end the church calendar and the year calendar, and then kick off into the new year that. Getting to stop and realize that, for me, just really anchored and gave a why.

Like, why are we even gathering this season? Why am I choosing to stop and celebrate and be around my family and give a lot more time to gathering with friends this year? This, this is why, this is the reason for this moment and for this season. So that one, I think, just really anchored me a lot. Because when I go into those family gatherings, It feels a lot less pressure of it has to be something that I've seen on TV or this imagery [00:28:00] that I've made up in my head.

It's all coming from the grace of God that I get to walk into these spaces and have these relationships. And these are the parents that He has chosen for me. And even if you're not a believer in Christ or a Christian, I would even say just finding a reason to celebrate at the end of the year. It is a time of joy and of hope.

And kind of having that why when you're entering into it for me has been really helpful because all the rest of it can be distracting and can be really kind of chaotic and get caught up in people pleasing or in keeping a boundary or not keeping a boundary or trying to squeeze one more thing into an already packed schedule instead of just saying why, like, what is the whole reason for doing this?

Why am I doing this? At this time. So I know it's like a, a bigger one, but that, that big Y kind of helped put more of the practical pieces that were really helpful to me into place.

Joey: I love that. No, you're so articulate. And I definitely can relate on some of my levels with that. Yeah. It's so important.

Cause I think what. What I hear you saying is it gives like a reason and purpose [00:29:00] behind like some meaning behind like the effort that you're about to go through with this whole season, which is for people like us can be certainly extra challenging. I know, um, we'll get into this in a little bit, but even now, you know, thinking ahead to the holidays this year, Thanksgiving with my side.

So I'm married. If anyone doesn't know, and we spend, try to spend like either Christmas with my family and then like Thanksgiving with my wife's family or vice versa. Um, but on my side, of course, it's split in two. I know some families, you know, have three or four splits, which is super challenging. So it's tricky to kind of figure out, you know, who are we spending the holiday with?

I, um, I'm such a nerd. I have, uh, I just created it somewhat recently in my phone. Like I have an Apple note. That just like has tracked the last like five or more years of like, who I spent each holiday with, because I kind of forget to be honest with you. And so that's like one extra tip for anyone watching.

And it's like listening, it could be helpful. And you know, your future self will be thankful if you do that, because you can look back and now I'm just going to keep adding to that, especially now with kids, like things can just be a lot and you [00:30:00] forget like, what did we do that year? And so it would just save you a little bit of time and hassle if you kind of keep track of it.

But, um, on that note, I don't think it's, um, Maybe a good healthy thing to feel like you like, Oh, your family or your parents to always be with them for a particular holiday. I think it's more of like a gift that you can give to them. Um, and hopefully they can receive and you can like, it's a beautiful thing.

Um, but I think there can be an unhealthy dynamic if there's like a lot of pressure. So, so we never, we try to avoid like language, like it's your holiday. No, it's Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever anyone's and, um, and we are choosing to be with you. We want to be with you. And I've even tried to use that language with my parents.

It's like, no, it's like, dad, I want to see you. We want to see you, mom. We want to be with you. We want to see you. We want to visit you all that. So I found that helpful as well, but you're right. Like, it's so important to like get that foundational stuff of like, why are we doing this all in the first place?

Is it just to like buy like materialistic kind of. Empty gifts for whatever reason, or is there something deeper going on here? [00:31:00]

Danielle: Yeah. And I found like having that depth makes the practicals feel a little more grounded, if that makes any sense. So in some of those simple things, a couple other things you talked about in your guide was having, um, Like a little bit of a support system if it's a little more challenging and in years past, I would find that I would end up calling my friends during the holidays with like some kind of drama blow up for like, I just need to vent.

Um, so the year I found your guide, I was more proactive with it and it was just great to, I have four friends that I feel very close with where I can just share my heart and share my thoughts and share my feelings as they're happening. And so. I want to say it was like after Halloween. I think I texted them and I was just like, Hey, the holidays are coming.

This is a time where I tend to get really stressed and I feel overwhelmed. Is it okay if I send you text to just tell you what my plans are? Is it okay if I text you before I go to these plans and possibly text event? And can you be praying for me during this time? And in [00:32:00] years past, I'd always, you know, you just felt like it was a burden or like, Oh, well, they're busy with their family.

But honestly, it brought us a lot closer. Um, and I think a lot of my friends, some of them come from intact families and some of them don't, um, and the ones that don't, I have just felt like such a, like, deeper closeness with them from having just had that one moment of practically being open and starting that conversation early of like, Hey, this time is sometimes hard for me and I'll shut down or I'll shy away from it.

Um, so that one was just. I think really helpful for me to set that up. And then I know we've talked a lot about the itinerary, but making a plan and clearly communicating with family has been like such a gift. And we do growing up. My mom was really big on like, I, I grew up in Orlando. So we have theme parks close by.

So the thing was always, if we went to a theme park, it was like, what's the one ride you want to do today? So you don't feel disappointed. Um, and then whoever we were with, like you would, those were the first few rides you would do. So we've kind of carried that on into the holidays a little bit. So I like a rebirth that a [00:33:00] couple of years ago of like, all right, what's the one thing this Christmas that you want to do together that if that season passed, you would feel sad if we, if we didn't do.

And it's actually been really helpful because I think sometimes I have all these pictures of what Christmas would look like. But I don't remember what my mom's was last year, but mine last year was like, I just, it sounds so simple, but I wanted to sit on the couch with her and watch the Christmas movie elf and eat like popcorn and red and green M& M's like, that was it.

I was like, that just sounds so fun to me. I want to do it. And we did. And it was really just such a nice expectation setting with her. And so I've found that really helpful to just practically ask, you know, what is something. That you would like to do this Christmas and I can offer if I can do it or not, um, kind of jumping.

I know we've talked a lot about itinerary and practice, but just asking your parents what they're expecting for this Christmas. Um, and just being clear if you can or can't do it in a very loving and gracious way, I would say it's just kind of been helpful again, coming all [00:34:00] from that place of like love and joy.

That's, that's the whole reason we're getting together this season is for love and hope and joy and celebration.

Joey: So good. There's so many things you touched on, um, that I want to hit on. I love the whole like asking permission from your friends. I think there's something like so good about that that's like very respectful.

Um, not that it's like bad to reach out to friends when you're in a tough moment in Venn. I think good friends will be there for you during those moments. But I think there's something about like the proactiveness that you Brought out, which is awesome. And then getting their permission there. Yes. And then they're even like buy in of like, yeah, no, I want to help.

But it's not just like, I'm allowing you to do this thing. No, I like actually want to be there for you. And, and often it's not, you know, something that's super time intensive. It's just being there for a touch point. And that's kind of all we need, which I think is so, so good. And I love that you're kind of like, we're focusing on kind of maybe one big thing with each person or even that big thing, but like main thing with each person.

And I think that's so good. And, um, and then, yeah, when it comes to the expectations, I heard this recently, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts. And I think what I'd like to add, that [00:35:00] a happiness is, or equals happiness, equals expectations minus reality.

Danielle: Yes. So it's happiness, happiness equals expectations minus reality.

Joey: Yeah.

Danielle: That feels so right. Yeah.

Joey: I can't, it was some business guy said it, but, um, And the funny thing is like, we can't control reality. So there's one variable there that you can control and that's your expectation. So I think like setting simple expectations, that is what I learned from you there. I think that's really wise.

Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. And I know there's like a couple people out there who will say like, there's a whole dichotomy out there of like, well, don't have too low of expectations. Like you should have some high, but I think in, at least in my journey of being an adult child Some of this ground still feels really new.

Um, and so I think for me, if you're further along in this process and you're like, Hey, I can ask like a little bit more and like up the expectations, absolutely go for it. If that is like built and that is there, but I think staying [00:36:00] realistic, at least for me is healthy with expectations. And then. Kind of going back to that idea of, like, having a dream session about what the holidays is gonna look like, like, if there's space to be honest with yourself and journal, like, what do I expect this Christmas to look like?

Or this Thanksgiving or this holiday season to look like? And just be honest, like, With yourself and then looking at it and seeing like, Hey, is that like, is that going to be reality this year? Or am I like, am I shooting a little too low? Am I shooting a little too high just to put it on paper and out of your head?

And I think has been helpful. Yeah. It's just really helpful. So it's not rattling around in there.

Joey: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. And the other thing. That I found helpful. And I know others have too, is just throwing that, um, off of someone to just being like, Hey, here's my plan. What do you think? Is this a good plan?

Um, it's nice that, you know, um, you could do that with a significant other, like a best friend, siblings, perhaps of being like, Hey, what do you guys think? And I, I've done that with my siblings too, especially if we're all going to be together, you know, I'll be the nerd who writes up the itinerary and be like, what do you guys think?

And, and the [00:37:00] nerd, like, this is, you

Danielle: know what? Someone needs the nerds, like someone needs it to put a little structure in there and that's okay.

Joey: Yeah, no, no, it's helpful, but it's been great. And then we kind of make adjustments on the fly or even beforehand. And then it's like, okay, this is great. Like, we're kind of talking about expectations or tweaking the expectations where, you know, like you said, I think it's a good point.

Like, we don't want to have them so low. It's like, well, the holiday is just going to be horrible. I'm just going to skip out this year, which can be tempting at times, but, um, Yeah, I think, you know, talking it through with someone, it just, I know we're kind of going on about this, but guys, it doesn't need to be complicated.

Like literally whip out your iPhone or your, whatever phone you have. If you don't have a phone, like a paper or whatever, something you can draw on and, uh, and then, you know, just like come up with a simple plan. That's it. And one of the things that. Like you said before, um, in addition to the kind of prioritizing maybe experiences, um, you could also prioritize people, um, which might sound kind of mean, [00:38:00] but it's like, no, I mean, not everyone in your life, um, can have top priority.

So it's like, okay. You know, when, for example, I go back to the Chicago land area, there's so many people there that I love. There's so many people I want to see, there's friends I want to see, there's family I want to see, there's, you know, Obviously my immediate family is relatives and I like often am not there for super long, maybe three days or five days, seven days at most, I would say.

And it's just so tricky now, especially with kids to see everyone. And I feel horrible, but it's like, okay, no, I have to have like a priority list of like, okay, this is my, for lack of a better term, like my A list. This is, these are the main people I'm going to see, you know, mom. Dad, you know, now it's my mom's in a different place, but, um, I'm going to see dad.

I'm going to see, you know, my brother, Anthony, my sister Mia, and then some, like, these close friends for this reason or that reason. Um, and then maybe like some aunts and uncles and that's like as much as I could do, unfortunately. And there was a recent trip that we took to that area. And I, um, again, just really wanted to reach out to all these friends and plan all this stuff.

Like I really, if any of them are listening right now, like I wanted to see you all really badly, but I knew there was a [00:39:00] particular reason that we were out there. And so we kind of, Anchored onto that reason, um, there's a baptism actually that we were going out for. We anchored onto that reason and then like everything was kind of built upon that.

And then, um, anything that didn't fit just didn't fit, unfortunately. Um, and it's an unfortunate thing, but that was like really freeing and helpful. So having that kind of, not just list of experiences, which I think is really wise, I love that you have that, but also a priority of kind of the people that you're going to see and spend time with.

Danielle: Yeah. You said that so well, Joey, and I love how you said as well, like it's not to be mean, it's. It's just a set of expectations, realistically, and that's something that time is finite, right? We don't have, if you're there for a week, like, seven days is all you got, like, there's only so much you can do, because you still need to sleep, you still need to make sure, like, you're eating, you still need to make sure, like, you're drinking water, you still, like, all of the things to keep ourselves up, like, you still need to be doing during that time as well, right?

And I, I think that's something we forget when the holidays happen, that we forget. December only has 31 days in it. It doesn't get like a [00:40:00] bonus day. Um, and Thanksgiving is a great idea

Joey: though.

Danielle: Right. It would be so great to throw that in there. Um, but it is still finite. So it's okay to just tell people proactively, like.

I am so sorry. I'm not going to be able to see you like this season. Like, is there another time I could see you and just share your heart of like what feeling disappointed that you can't be there to see them or just be, I would say, just be honest and clear. Like clarity is kindness. Instead of trying to, I'm going to use the word contort yourself or feel like you have to please someone, or you have to get yourself into a bunch of different places at once.

It's okay to say that is something I cannot do this year. I still love you. I still care about you. And I'm still wishing you the best for the holidays. What can we do to stay connected during this season?

Joey: I love that. That's such a good template of like, I love like the kind of heartfelt apology affirming that they're important to you that you wish you could.

And then planning, like you had said earlier in the conversation to planning something separately that you can. Do to invest in the [00:41:00] friendship relationship. So that's awesome. I think all of those things are really, really good. And, and the, the thing, the only thing I'd add, cause it's just so common these days, it's just like, you know, avoiding the temptation to ghost people too.

Danielle: Yeah.

Joey: Yeah. Don't do that. It's just so rare. Like, and, and the only, I think the only motivation a lot of us need is like, think of how that feels when you're ghosted, it's horrible, you don't like that. And. I don't like that. And so it's like someone else wouldn't like that either. And so it's, um, it hurts far less to, like you said, be clear.

And maybe it stings a little bit of like, oh man, I really wanted to see that person as opposed to this like drawn out kind of painful, I don't know, mucky ghosting. That just is not a fun thing to go through. And, um, I'm curious kind of what were the results or the outcomes of, you know, using the guide you already alluded to some of them, but I'm curious, like, did it make things better?

Like. How did it help you when you were actually going through it? Not just like the before and the putting the tips into action. Like what came of it?

Danielle: Yeah. Um, what came of it for me is like one. I had clarity for [00:42:00] me when I was going into the holidays. So I, I knew what to expect, which is such a gift. And then, For me, whenever there is some clarity and a little bit of structure, it actually gave me space to really be present and just kind of have fun.

And I know that sounds so odd and a handful of people might be like, that, shouldn't you have fun all the time? But it's hard. It's hard during the holiday season sometimes when In my head, I'm planning the next place I'm going to. So when it was just all laid out, I felt like I got to be present with the family that I was with and with the friends that I was with.

And that was just such a gift. And from that, I felt more connected one with my family when I got to see them. And. To like with those friends that I was texting with and it was actually really fun to celebrate with them. So like when they would text and say like, Hey, how did that go? I'd be like, Oh, I'm really well.

And to get like a heart emoji or like a hands up emoji, you know, they're like, that's so great. I'm so happy for you. Like. That was so cool, you know, to realize like, wow, I got to, I got to celebrate and really just enjoy [00:43:00] and relish this season a lot more than I had in the past. And I'd even say too, Joey, it gave a little more, I know we've been talking like a lot about like autonomy versus surrender, like autonomy.

And then we were talking about structure versus surrender a little bit, but it. It gave some space to realize that like the chaos that I've felt from this in the past doesn't have to be the way I choose to move forward and that has actually been really kind of cool, you know, it's it's carried over into some other areas and so I would say it made it better for me for sure.

It's been a little bit of a play, so I don't want to say it like it was perfect, like right off the get go, but it's been really fun to kind of play with and have more conversations, um, with family and just, I think even for myself, learn how to be a little clearer and learn how to say it kindly and how to say it respectfully, but also at the same time, learn how to stand my ground when I need to stand my ground.

Which has been kind of cool.

Joey: No, that's good. I was going to say, we can certainly give you your money back cause we actually guarantee that the holidays will be flawless once you go through. No. And for the [00:44:00] record, it's completely free. It's completely free. So you will certainly get your money back. But, um, no, we've heard a lot of great things just, yeah, again, putting it into action is the key.

And that, that would be kind of the challenge as we get to the end of this conversation here is, um, yeah, it's. One thing to know these things, they're not complicated. It's not a thing to do them like we've talked about before. So that'll be the challenge. But before we get kind of the very end, I'm curious, you talked about kind of the benefits for you.

Did you see any benefits for maybe your parents or siblings or the other people around you? Because We're a little bit more proactive and went through this whole kind of system or process. You called it a system when we talked before. And I was like, that's true. It's a little bit of like a system to make the holidays less stressful, more enjoyable.

Danielle: Yeah, it worked really well. I would say, um, at least for my mom, it gave her a lot of structure, which was really nice. And it opened the door to have some conversations, um, about the holidays earlier. So that's been kind of fun to get to know her a little bit more as an adult of some of the, you know, things that she values during the holiday time.

And then I would say for [00:45:00] some of my siblings, it actually opened the door for us to kind of communicate a little more clearly on what does work during the holidays and what doesn't. So that's been, I would say, a really cool gift to kind of carve out time to just be siblings together and doesn't have to always be around like a family holiday.

So that's been kind of fun to enter into in an adult season. Yeah. And then I would even say too, for the. Some of the extended family that has been kind of also navigated, um, it's taken some pressure off for them to, when I, I wouldn't say I take the lead, but even just communicating or starting that conversation as something as simple as like, Hey, I'd love to see you guys.

Like they'll shoot back a text of, Oh my gosh, we'd love to see you too. When would work? Like, we know you're busy, what works best for you? And so that's actually been a really cool thing. I didn't realize they were waiting. Sometimes someone's just waiting for an invitation. Yeah, it opened the door to have some time together and that was a real gift.

Joey: I bet they really appreciate that. That's amazing. And just going back quickly to the thing you said about presence, I think that's so good. And I've experienced both sides of that where in [00:46:00] situations where, yeah, your mind's like in a million places cause you're trying to maybe please everyone or you're thinking about like, man, we have so much on the schedule to do, so many people to see, so many parties to go to or whatever.

And yeah, it can be so overwhelming that you just skip the present moment. You just are not there. Like literally like I don't really hear what people are saying and you're not like, present in the conversations. But on the flip side, like you said, if you kind of simplify things and put a little bit of a plan and set those expectations, communicate those expectations, that plan, and then, um, you could actually just live the moment and there's no need to Yeah.

Be in a million places. So I, I love that point. I, um, was curious, what would you tell someone maybe who's watching, listening right now and they're unsure about maybe getting the guide and starting to use. The tips, like put them into action. What would you say if they're a little bit, there's some hesitation there.

Danielle: Oh, great one. First I would say, take a deep breath. And I would, I would ask you to be a little curious about that hesitation. You know, if you're feeling a little, a little uncertain or a little bit of trepidation about [00:47:00] getting the guide. Just kind of ask yourself what, what is kind of blocking you from that.

I wouldn't stay there too long, but regardless, I would get it. The information is great. And if that's something that you still kind of work through in your head and your heart, that's okay. But I would really say, you know, be curious about what's holding you back from that. And if you have a friend that you can chat through with it, A journal's been a really great place for me to, again, let my thoughts come out of my head and onto paper and become concrete.

I would kind of process that a little bit because it may be holding you back where it may be something very real that you need to work through, but that's, that's what I would recommend. Be a little curious on it. Regardless, I would still, I would still grab it. It's good. It's good information. So if now's not the right time, you have it for when you need it.

And I'm, I'm hoping the time is right for you because it is, it is such a gift. And if you're feeling even the tiniest little nudge that you should, or like curiosity about it, grab it. It's, it's very helpful. And I feel really confident that something from it is going to bless you as you enter into the soliday season.

Joey: I love that. Even if it's just one [00:48:00] thing I would throw out there to everyone listening, it's like we have like five main tips and then some additional like resources that you can use to kind of put those tips into action. But even if you were to use like one tip and not any of the resources or maybe one of the resources and not really any of the tips, like that's okay, that it's there to serve you.

And so, you know, if you don't, you don't have to use it as like we built it, you can use it however is going to help you. So we just want to help you. We want to be there to support you guys. So yeah, I hope it's a blessing. Hope it's helpful. And, um, just wanted to give you the last word to first, thank you so much for coming on the show.

It's, uh, really great to talk with you. You're so articulate. Um, yeah, you're just a good woman. Thank you for being an advisor to resort as well. I'm really grateful to have you behind the scenes kind of help steer the ship and, um, you know, give your advice in certain scenarios. And so anyway, take care.

Really grateful for you, for everything, all the wisdom that you shared today and your vulnerability and, um, yeah, just grateful. So thank you. Um, but yeah, in closing, please. Yeah. Good.

Danielle: Yeah. I was going to say my pleasure. Thank you all. My [00:49:00] pleasure.

Joey: Amazing. And, um, yeah, just final word to you, any, any final advice or encouragement to anyone listening right now who maybe feels the weight of the holidays coming up, or maybe they're listening in the midst of them, um, yeah, any final encouragement or advice for all that.

Danielle: Um, enjoy the season it is, it is designed to be enjoyed and it's okay to have a little bit of fun with it as well. And just, again, remember there is hope, there is joy and there is peace in this season. Um, and if you don't have any of that, you can, um, borrow some from me. You can borrow some from others in your life as well.

Um, but that is something to lean into during the season, um, regardless of what your circumstances are.

Joey: Again, if you want the guide five tips to navigate the holidays in a broken family, just go to restored ministry. com slash holidays, or click the link in the show notes again, that's restored ministry.

com slash holidays, or click the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or [00:50:00] follow us on apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or. Wherever you're listening to this podcast, not only is it the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers that we have, the more the apps will actually suggest our show to people who are looking for help.

And it only takes a few seconds, but if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback. And that also helps people find the podcast. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we're here to help.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#133: Digital Addiction: Why It Hurts You & How to Beat It

Technology certainly has benefits, but there are dangers as well. Sadly, our misuse of technology is causing us to be more depressed, more anxious, less happy, and less healthy than ever before. 

Perhaps worst of all, it destroys our ability to heal, grow, and build healthy relationships. In this episode, we dive into that with my guest, Andrew Laubacher, plus:

• Alarming data on how misusing tech is hurting us, especially young people

• How to build an intentional relationship with technology

• A novel yet simple solution to help you find freedom from digital addiction

Visit Humanality.org

Support Humanality

Coming Soon: 30-Day Tech Detox Challenge via Hallow

Get the Mini-Course: Why You Feel Broken

Get the Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

===

Joey: [00:00:00] How big is this problem?

Andrew: There was a study that just came out actually that surveyed teenagers and around 75 percent of them shared that they wish TOK never existed. I don't know anyone so far I've spoken to that's like, Hey, I want to be spending more time on my phone. Founders of Google and Instagram, Facebook, they don't give these products to their children.

Joey: What would you say to someone like that? Who's like, man, like I can't even consider giving up my smartphone. Like I live on the thing and I get, I'm so productive on it.

Andrew: When we talk about. Being moderate with our devices. It's like nurses going to high schools, telling students to moderate ecstasy. It's just, it's just not possible.

Joey: Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle. And build a better life. My guest today is Andrew Laubacher. Andrew is the executive director of Humanality, a movement, helping people overcome digital addiction and reclaim their humanity with degrees in theology and philosophy and a decade of experience as a [00:01:00] touring musician, he offers a unique global perspective on human connection as a national board certified health and wellness coach and personal trainer.

Andrew blends his expertise and wellbeing with Humanality's mission for humanity. Promoting balance technology use his innovative approach, empowers people to reconnect with authentic human experiences in the digital age. I'm really excited to have Andrew on the show. As you guys know, technology certainly has benefits, but there are dangers as well.

Sadly, our misuse of technology is causing us to be more depressed, more anxious. Less happy, less healthy than ever before. And perhaps worst of all, it's really destroying our ability to heal, grow, and build healthy relationships. And so in this episode, Andrew and I dive into that. Uh, he, we talk about the alarming data on how misusing tech is hurting us, especially young people, how tech addiction is perhaps the biggest barrier to achieving great hard things.

How to build an intentional relationship with technology is some awesome advice on that. And finally, he offers a novel yet simple solution to help you find freedom from. Digital [00:02:00] addiction. So if you have a smartphone or you watch screens, maybe more than you'd like, this episode is for you. Quick note. I apologize for the background noise due to a canceled flight.

Andrew actually had to speak with us from the Denver airport in the Delta airlines lounge. But I'm really glad that he did. Here's our chat. Welcome to show, man. So good to have you here.

Andrew: Hey, honored to be here. Thanks so much.

Joey: I'm going to talk about your apostolate, the work that you're doing. I, you know, it was checking out your website, obviously, and definitely impressed by what you're doing and just how well researched it is.

And just how, um, big of a problem this is. It's such a huge issue that we're all facing. And so I'm really excited to dive into the conversation where people aren't aware. Um, what problem are you guys trying to solve exactly?

Andrew: Yeah. So humanality exists to help people discover freedom through an intentional relationship with technology.

So. We are really helping people be more fully human and especially in regards to our phones and devices and TVs and tablets and, you know, the addiction regarding our phones and social media and gaming and, you know, pornography. We're, we're [00:03:00] addressing that problem, which is like the elephant in the room, you know, but the elephant's really in our pockets.

And it's affecting all of us in many different ways, but at this point in our society, we're really helping people get their lives back and get their time back.

Joey: So good. It's amazing. I know we'll get into this a little bit, but I've heard stories of people when they actually take a break from technology, they, yeah, like what comes of it.

So we'll get into that in a little bit. But I wanted to ask you the kind of maybe obvious question of why do you care about this? Like, you're a talented guy. You could be doing a lot of things. Like, why this?

Andrew: Yeah. At least in my own experience, I am a millennial, so I had half of my life, you know, without a phone and then kind of half my life with the phone and all the social media platforms.

And yeah, I got a, I got a smartphone in college 2010 and got on every, you know, social media platform. I mean, I was on my space and AOL and some messaging and, you know, all the early kind of things like that. You know, I had the razor dude and I thought it was like the coolest. Kid ever, but you know, as all these different platforms came out, I began to experience the addiction to all of [00:04:00] myself.

So just the comparison, the waste of time, the lust, and that just began to get just progressively worse in my life. I've been a musician pretty much most of my life. That's been my career the last 10 years. So playing music at, you know, conferences and retreats and had a band that traveled around the world playing music.

I was playing the game, you know, sharing all the. Places and people and flights and cool trips and I just noticed my own addiction to feeling good Getting more likes and yeah by 2018. I say I was addicted to all the platforms snapchat Instagram Facebook Twitter YouTube and I personally was just getting tired of the struggle with lust and Comparison and waste of time and just feeling lesser like I should be in this different place Place at this stage of my life, you know or all my friends getting married off, you know and finding their person and I'm not so anyway 2018 I decided to delete all my social media and go to a flip phone and my record label and Management at the time was like that's a [00:05:00] horrible idea You know, like how are you gonna get gigs and events and I was like, dude, this stuff just is not making me happy And I deleted all of it, and that year, God took me all over the world, North America, all over Canada, South America, Europe, Jerusalem, all without social media, all with a flip phone, and it was just this moment of real freedom, like my relationships improved, I got my time back, my purity improved.

I was beginning to experience like surprises about things, you know, like about stuff happening in friends lives. They're like, Oh my gosh, I found out they had a baby, you know, and I didn't know. And, uh, we'll get to do this thing called like catching up with people, you know, like in person, you know? So, so anyway, that's, that's kind of where this all started for me.

Um, and I just noticed even while I was on the road, playing music, you know. In front of all these people, I saw the mental health epidemic unfolding before my eyes, and I began to be very passionate about healing. I've always been fascinated with [00:06:00] healing, pretty much since I was 21. Um, so for me, I wanted to help people.

And I just felt like music wasn't enough. Like when I was on stage playing, like I wanted more. And so I started studying nutrition and health and wellness and longevity and mental health and started to find You know, and this intersection with technology, I just began to see more and more. We're getting sicker and sicker as a society, almost, you know, on every on every front.

And I wanted to help people heal. And I noticed that technology was really affecting us in many different ways. So there's a lot more to the story, but that's kind of how I got interested in these topics. And to me, it really comes down to healing. How can I help, you know, people heal? I

Joey: love that. One of the things I love about your mission is that It gets to the root of so many other problems.

And I think that for so long in our culture, we've just been treating symptoms. And now you're, especially with this, like that's what we try to do here as well. You're going to the root. Talk about that.

Andrew: Yeah. Let me hit you first with just a little bit of the data. I'm kind of a [00:07:00] nerd. Um, so I'm going to hit you with the slew of stuff.

This is going to be a little overwhelming, but it's going to get to, this is obviously describing maybe the symptomology and then I can kind of share some Um, you know, changes we're looking to present to the world. Uh, children aged eight to 12 in the United States spend an average of four to six hours a day watching or using screens while teens spend up to nine hours a day on screens.

This is common sense media. That was 2019. So that number is actually even higher. Um, excessive screen time is associated with a 30 percent higher risk of anxiety, depression in adults. A study of 4, 520 adolescents found that those who spent more than seven hours a day on screens were twice as likely to be diagnosed with depression and anxiety as those who use screens for an hour a day.

A 2021 study found that 210 million people worldwide suffer from social media addiction. Research shows that limiting social media to 30 minutes a day can lead to significant improvement in well being. I mean, there's an incredible amount of [00:08:00] information on, on gaming. Right now, in regards to pornography, 28, 258 users are watching pornography every second.

A study found that 64 percent of young adults aged 13 to 24 actively seek out pornography weekly or more. Um, and here's kind of a synthesis analysis. A study of 2, 587 adults found that problematic internet use, including social media, gaming, and pornography was associated with poor mental health, increased suicidal ideation, and decreased physical activity.

So, that's just some of the data. Obviously, this book by Jonathan Haidt called The Anxious Generation has really been blowing up lately. You know, since the last 10 years, anxiety and depression have skyrocketed amongst teen girls and boys. 10 to 14 year old girls have experienced a quadrupling in, uh, self harm, directly correlating to this moment when the smartphone came out and the front facing screen.

So these are a lot of different problems, right? I don't think the technology piece is the answer to all of them. I'd say it's a [00:09:00] huge contributing factor, and all the data is pointing to that the more you're on these things, the worse mental health outcomes you experience. So our idea is, Hey, how can we help people get more human interaction, more face to face in person interaction, get outside, get sunlight, get moving and actually do this thing together, right?

Here's the bread and butter of humanality. This is a movement. So it's people doing this together right now. We're at, you know, six universities, over 300 students that are essentially giving up their smartphones and taking on dumb phones to be a part of this movement. And when you realize there's people that want to do this together, that's the game changer.

Um, there was a study that just came out and actually that surveyed teenagers and around 75 percent of them shared that they wish Instagram and tech talk never existed. So we're actually giving young people the opportunity to opt out of this social contagion of. This need to belong via social media platforms and allowing them to reintegrate their friendships, their purity, [00:10:00] get their time back.

And it's already been incredible. We're only in our second year as an organization, but the testimonies coming in are just amazing.

Joey: Wow, man. So good. And how big is this problem? Would you say like, obviously all those. Stats show the seriousness of it and mind blowing, honestly. We'll, we'll make sure to link all that in the show notes, but my goodness.

Um, how big is this problem?

Andrew: I mean, it's definitely universal. So there's 2 billion people on the planet that have smartphones. I don't know anyone so far. I've spoken to that's like, Hey, I want to be spending more time on my phone. I also have never heard anyone after they scroll Instagram for like four hours, be like, wow, my life is incredible.

Everything is so great in the world. And I'm just so looking forward to this day. You know, I mean, I just, those aren't the things that people experience. And we have to understand that these different tech You know, gurus, different founders of Google and Instagram, Facebook, they don't give these products to their children.

So Steve jobs was interviewed in a 2010 interview. I was asked, how are your kids enjoying the new iPad? [00:11:00] He said, we don't give it to them. We limit their technology. And here's the also funny part. All these guys are Schmidt from Google. Mark Zuckerberg, Kevin Tok, all these guys went to Waldorf schools, which are zero to low technology schools.

So, and that's where they send their kids as well. So, you kind of know something's off when the guys creating these products aren't giving it to their children. And they themselves created these products from a place of growing up without them. So, we're really helping people. One, understand that these platforms are addictive.

It's actually behavioral addiction. Um, and we don't use that word flippantly, right? It's actually, uh, dopaminergic neurological wiring that's happening. And they've essentially exploited the human brain in such a way that we constantly feel that pull, right? The average American is checking their device, just looking about 352 times a day, that's almost every two minutes and 45 seconds.

Uh, some other numbers are even worse. Um, so [00:12:00] there's a reason you can't stop checking, right? Two major mechanisms they're using social approval and intermittent positive feedback. So a lot of these companies went to the slot machines of Las Vegas and actually, you know, looked at how they utilized intermittent positive feedback to create You know, greater dopamine responses to keep you coming back for more.

So that's your Instagram, your Facebook, your, you know, Snapchat, Tik TOK, but then even just the idea of communication, I mean, pretty much everyone constantly is checking email, text, phone calls. I mean, there's never a point where it disconnected. So. Once we help create boundaries once we help educate people on how these technologies are addictive and actually this is their attention you kind of build up this rebellious anger of like you know what when i don't like being used.

And i don't like my time being monetized for money i mean really your engagement and attention into these platforms is what's being monetized are not free at they're not free actually [00:13:00] cost you a lot. If your screen time here's, here's my thing. My screen time was average five hours and 30 minutes with no social media.

I was just looking at the weather channel app, you know what I mean? Just to distract myself, you know what I mean? And my Delta app, just see how many points I had five and a half hours times, seven days a week, you know, times 365 days a year times the next 20 years. It came up to, you know, over four and a half years of my life are going to be spent on the screen.

Now, if your average American is on a screen seven to nine hours a day, I mean, we're talking over ten years of your life, you're going to look back, and it's going to be spent on the screen. And I remember looking at that number, and just not wanting to entertain that reality. I wanted to choose a different path.

And That's really what we're inviting people into a new way of living while utilizing the good of technology. So we're not anti smartphone, we're not anti technology, I'm speaking to you on a computer in the Delta Club in Wi Fi, you know. But we have to understand that this didn't just happen, like this, this [00:14:00] wasn't just by chance, this is, this is by design.

And, um, there's many different physiological, social, emotional, spiritual implications that, um, humanality is really addressing as a whole.

Joey: So good. So much I want to comment on, but one of the things you made me think of is in one of our past episodes we had Dr. John Bishop on and he, um, was talking about how there's really three, um, somewhat recent revolutions that have really, in some ways, damaged the human person.

There's been some good things that have come out of them, but they've damaged the human person. They've hurt our ability to love and hurt like families and. And he talked about obviously industrial revolution, how that kind of took, you know, men and some women away from their families and away from like a farming lifestyle.

Then from there came the sexual revolution, of course, which had so many devastating effects on love, on marriage, you know, relationships, all that. And then finally, the one he pointed to, which I don't think is talked about enough. That's why I like the work that you're doing is the digital revolution. How that's like just upended so much of our culture and cause so many problems.

And so I love that you guys are talking about this. [00:15:00] I also, I was thinking about how you said that, you know, all these guys who've created these platforms and who are very successful businessmen are not, you know, doing the things that they're trying to get us to do. It's fascinating. I remember hearing from James Clear, the author of atomic habits.

He was in one of his like emails. I get this, he was talking about how, you know, a lot of people have their best ideas in the shower. And he's like, for a lot of people, that's the only time they're away from their screen. So it's like, it's amazing what your brain can do and how like productive you can be when you're away from it.

And the final thing I was going to say is I remember, um, studying in Austria, you know, going to Franciscan university, going over to Austria. And for anyone who's not familiar, we have this awesome study abroad program. where we go for like, you know, semester three, four months. And we're literally there on this, like in the foothills of the Alps and at this old Carthusian monastery that's been converted into a hotel.

And it's just like 180 of us. And, um, now it's a little bit different, but back in the day, we didn't have any smartphones. And it was like, you maybe had it done for maybe, and that was it. And so obviously we're using our laptops and computers to get schoolwork done. But then when we would [00:16:00] travel, we had nothing.

And it was so, so freeing. Like some of the most peaceful, happiest times in my life were there. And then my time in Italy. And so, yeah, I, I've tasted it and it's so good. And I think like so many people feel that, uh, this is just the way our culture is. And we can't really overcome it. What would you say to someone like that?

Who's like, man, like I can't even consider giving up my smartphone. Like I live on the thing and I get, I'm so productive on it. Like, what would you say to that objection?

Andrew: Yeah, so many things. But, um, I was just thinking briefly, Cal Newport in his book, digital minimalism says that we weren't wired to be constantly wired.

Like there's just not how we were designed. Um, and just, To your point about the shower, like we don't really have any space away from these platforms, uh, and it is affecting our capacity to think, to reflect, to be creative. Actually, boredom is one of the most incredible places that you can begin to be creative.

And I think there's a creativity crisis in our culture right now. [00:17:00] So yeah, to the people that are so addicted, most people are willing to admit they're totally addicted. So I've haven't met anyone. That's like, you know what? My smartphone is so amazing. It's doing everything. I don't actually struggle with being on it at all.

I have perfect control of it. I mean, I actually haven't spoken to one person that's ever said that. If that is the case, and, you know, maybe they're, you know, convinced that, uh, this is the only way forward, I would just say, you know, really ask the question, like, is this the best way you could, you know, spend your time because while there is incredible, like apps like Lyft, like a random person can come pick you up and take it, like, that's an incredible technology.

Um, I know most people aren't just using, you know, the phones for these incredible tools. Uh, they're also getting caught up, you know, scrolling on. On YouTube and Instagram and Facebook and Snapchat and Twitter. So again, it's very difficult because the, the tool, the phone has been so mixed with incredible tools.

Most of our society now doesn't even have menus at a restaurant, [00:18:00] right? You have to use a QR code where we're actually, it's getting very difficult to live without these platforms. So here's the only difference. It's very difficult to talk about the moderation conversation again, because this tool is largely addictive.

So. Abigail Schreier says, you know, and speaking of this moderation thing, this is what I just, I hear a lot of like, well, just be moderate with your technology, you know, she says that when we talk about being moderate with our devices, it's like nurses going to high schools, telling students to moderate ecstasy.

It's just, it's just not possible. You know, you'd never give an alcoholic a beer and tell them to moderate it. The issue is. Is that we have these addictive things in our pockets in our hands at all times. It's literally an appendage now That we can't live without so it's not like you can really fully detox from the thing because you just need it at all times so yeah for most people I think the answer to the You know, productivity.

I don't, I don't think I can get off this thing. I mean, I would one just say, yes, it is incredibly productive. Um, but [00:19:00] maybe are there places with your relationship with your device and social media that you're finding are unhealthy or toxic? And I guarantee you, every person is going to say yes. So we're here to help.

How do we help get those toxic places with our relationship with our devices out and kind of get back to a more healthy place? And to be honest, I don't know. At this point with how toxic social media platforms are, if there is a healthy place. Now that's a hot take.

Joey: If you feel broken, understanding why is the first step to healing.

Our free mini course called Why You Feel Broken features five short videos by a trauma therapist answering key questions such as, what is trauma? How does it affect your body, your mind, your emotions, and your relationships? It'll help you diagnose what's wrong so you can begin to heal and build. a better life.

Get the free mini course at restored ministry. com slash broken, or just click the link in the show notes. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I remember when we were in Indianapolis, when I met you for the first time, you showed me your dumb phone. I was the wise [00:20:00] phone or light phone. And, um, and it was kind of impressive actually how like, New looking they are, they're not the phones from the nineties or early 2000.

So I was impressed with that. But the few things I would throw out there, in addition to everything you just said, would be, you know, doubling down on what you said, if someone said, you know, saying that their phone makes them so productive and their life so easy and everything like that, which I think there's a lot of truth to it.

Um, but at what costs you said that really well, then the other thing is, is it the only way, like you said, you can do a lot of this stuff on your computer. And then what if, you know, you could actually be more productive. Without your phone, which I think, you know, you, you quoted, uh, Cal Newport and I forget the name of his new book, but it's, I think it's slow, slow productivity.

It's like that, that idea that, you know, anything great that you can produce in your life is going to come through a lot of like focused, deliberate work that, you know, doesn't involve distractions, maybe some healthy breaks,

Andrew: but

Joey: it's like, good luck. If your attention span is worse than a goldfish, like you're not going to be able to build anything great in your life.

And it's going to, there's going to be a [00:21:00] lot of other struggles that come from that.

Andrew: Yeah, no, I mean, it's kind of the whole funny thing I've been discovering that even when I deleted all my social media, I mean, I really actually felt withdrawal symptoms that first week and two weeks, like actually anxious, feeling left out the FOMO, the whole, the whole thing, you know, which again, they know, this is how we feel.

This is why young people can't get out of this. Um, they feel stuck, you know, cause all their friends are on it and when they get off of it alone or their parents are forcing them. Yeah, they feel very alone. Um, but yeah, county reports book is incredible because he goes through a list of, uh, you know, inventors, creators, businessmen, I mean, really anything worth building just takes like 20 plus years, you know, and right now this is what I'm calling the instification of everything.

So I think again, our habits and our day to day. Um, decisions really do impact our thinking and behavior. So in regards to our Instagram and Facebook and Tik TOK, like watching influencers and watching them share [00:22:00] every meal and everything they think and everything they do and every time they go to the bathroom and whatever, like.

This is warping our view of reality. Um, So the idea is, okay, I can get rich and famous instantly and go viral. Uh, this is what, like the number one thing young people want to be is an influencer. Like, that's very alarming to me. Um, because that isn't real life and it's mostly people projecting false illusions, you know, and this is like the part of the difficulty is like a lot of people are, you know, desiring to do so many good things.

You know, via the internet, via these different, you know, websites. Um, I think it's just missing the mark in so far as that you have to become obsessed with how many people are following you, you know, everything's about a reaction video to what this person said, we're, we're losing actually authentic friendships.

We're losing actually real in person communication. Uh, Dr. Cardoris talks about this in his book, digital madness. And Nicholas Carr talks about in his book, um, the shallows, how we're actually [00:23:00] losing our capacity for what's called spectrum or critical thinking. So these platforms are actually making us dumber, like our IQ is going down, but actually one of the main indicators of success.

In many different realms is actually creativity, and I would say our creativity is actually going along down along with that with our IQ. So my point being to really do anything fulfilling, uh, we're in a meaning crisis. We're in a loneliness epidemic. Uh, the surgeon general has shared. We're in a loneliness epidemic.

The surgeon general has shared that, you know, we need to have warning labels on our social media platforms.

Joey: Wow.

Andrew: Um, because this stuff is making us. Sick and really anything worth doing in life, I believe takes a really long time and it's slow and it's painful. Like even just building this organization, you know, it's like, this is an incredible undertaking that is not instant.

And it's probably going to take the next 40 years to really unpack for the world. What I want to unpack for the world. Um, And along with that, um, I think it's pretty [00:24:00] clear that at this point in time, the experiments gone horribly wrong. So, you know, 10 years ago, we didn't have this data, right? But now we do.

And it's like, well, what do we do moving forward? I don't think the influencer model, you know, creating a culture of consumption and obsession with self is healthy. And we're really interested in helping humans flourish. I'd say humanity is more of a wellness movement. Yeah. We actually don't even call ourselves a ministry.

We're actually just a movement for humans. So it doesn't matter if you're religious or where you land on the political spectrum, everyone is asking the question, how do I be more human? 90 percent of our time is now spent indoors with 10 percent of that time being outside. A hundred years ago, that was completely the opposite.

You know, we're not getting enough sunlight. We're not getting enough movement. Uh, we're eating highly ultra processed food. 60 percent of the American diet is ultra processed food. Almost 70 percent of our society is, you know, overweight or obese. These are a multiplicity of issues coming together that within our calling them villages at our universities, because [00:25:00] it's this idea of how do you get back to your local village?

Again, we were talking about that omnipresence idea. I can't really do much about all the wars around the world, but I can go help that person down the street that just like needs someone to say hello and maybe needs food. Or I can call that friend, you know, that I know is struggling and instead of just liking their picture, I actually, I think I could call them and actually check in and see how they're doing, you know.

There's people like literal neighbors next door. That need a hello, that need a hi. Like I've lived in a lot of different places and I'm sad to say I've barely known my neighbors. So with globalization, with all of its benefits and amazing attributes, again, it's making us lonelier than ever and unhappier than ever before.

And so really the things we're proposing in the club, which we can get into maybe our, uh, solutions that we're proposing are actually to help people heal physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. I mean, it's the whole person and it's, and it's literally applicable to every human. Um, so that's, what's so exciting about.[00:26:00]

Um, our work and i'm also a national board certified health and wellness coach. So i'm very passionate about behavior change. I love you quoted the, uh, atomic habits. Um, but i'm very interested in virtue and i'm very interested in those questions, you know, like what does it mean to be happy? What does it mean to live a life worth living?

So anyway, those are some of the things I'm, I'm interested in.

Joey: So good, man. I love that. Yeah. Let's get into the solution. Um, for you, I'm just curious if you'd add anything about like young people who come from broken families in particular. I know we've talked a lot about kind of where technology leads us when it comes to like anxiety, depression, tension, span, all those different things that we talked about.

What do you think is driving at least for these young people from broken families, their use of technology as an escape?

Andrew: Yes, there is a 20 percent increase in low income communities on all platforms and all gaming platforms. So yeah, single mom, three kids. I mean, the, you know, the phone and tech is, is a pacifier, you know, and it's hard to blame these.

You know, families that are having to, you know, [00:27:00] to do this, but man, I mean, I pretty much lived my life in airports and it is wild when you walk around how many young, young kids are just glued to a screen, you know, and there's an incredible amount of data showing that this is affecting their, their hardware, right?

Their, their brains, their communication skills, their emotional recognition skills. So it definitely is affecting younger populations, especially low income families. Uh, More and it's a problem. I mean, it's actually creating these bigger disparities because the more wasted time they experience on these devices, the less they're engaging reality, the less they're building skill sets, the less they're, you know, able to engage in their schoolwork and actually finish, you know, homework and projects.

So it's a real issue. And the whole idea that, you know, every kid needs technology in a phone or iPad, you know, to be successful in this day and age, it's a complete lie. I mean, Jonathan Hyde's been talking about this. Yeah, again, Dr. Cardares, Anna Lemke, her book, Dopamination. I mean, there's a slew of PhDs, MDs, [00:28:00] um, that are sounding the alarm that, you know, the idea that every kid needs to have an iPad with full access to the internet is going to help them succeed.

It's actually the complete opposite.

Joey: No, it's a real problem. And that's why the work you're doing is so important. Uh, what are you guys offering? What's the solution to this whole mess we're in?

Andrew: Yes, this is the good news part. So I'm excited about this because it gets, it's dark, dude. I mean, it's even worse than what we just talked about sadly with, you know, how children are getting exploited, you know, the sex trafficking, pornography.

Um, it's really, really bad. And so our solution is pretty radical. And I think Jonathan Heights book is great, but I don't think it goes far enough. And, um, I think he's just a little too soft. To be honest, so our, you know, proposition right now to college students, which we realize we're late, right? We realize that at that point, you know, we need to go further upstream to really help, you know, young people heal.

But at the university level, these kids can make the decision. They get to decide. To give it their smartphone, take on a dumb phone. And we've just found that, you know, students are doing this together, are [00:29:00] so excited to opt out of the matrix, you know? So, uh, you join a humanity village at one of our six locations, you can get a light phone or a wise phone.

You go through a 30 day detox that we have together. Um, which again is going diving into all the data, little challenges throughout. And then during, during the year, every month we have, you know, a meeting where we've synthesized multidisciplinary fields on technology and mental health, spiritual health, physical health.

Um, so we're unpacking all the data of what is doing to us, our attention spans, our social connections, our dating life, our, you know, everything. Right. So once a month they meet, they dive into the data and then we're giving them like phone free experiences. So they're going on phone free hikes and having phone free bonfire nights.

And creating new games just without their phones. Like, uh, one of our groups at Aave just had a cookout night and they just literally went and cooked food and grilled meat without their phones. It sounds hilarious how simple this is, but it's like, uh, [00:30:00] there was one group I was talking to, you know, that was sharing like some young guys, you know, they're going through this detox and they're like, we literally don't know what to do.

So. Young people actually don't know what to do when they aren't engaging in some of these technologies. So we have a slew of challenges that students take on and they get to choose their mode. Okay, so this is like the humanality modes. You join the club, you can be in human mode. Rebel mode or savage mode so human mode you go grayscale you keep your smartphone you take off all addictive apps you just have maybe podcast maps banking very basic.

Rebel mode you go to a light phone or a wise phone you can still have some of your social media platforms on your computer. But again, just that little bit of friction from it not being in your pocket is just going to decrease your chances to just endlessly scroll on it. Um, then you've got super rebel mode, which is just a light phone, wise phone, no social media accounts, um, and everything is done on your computer.

And then savage mode is [00:31:00] just choosing one device. I mean, we had some students that did this, they went no cell phone and just used a computer laptop, you know, which sounds so wild now, but it's funny. Like that's how most people lived for millions of years. Yeah, like this is actually more human and these students are thriving.

So you pick a mode and then you have a monthly phone challenge and a monthly wellness challenge with the community. So for example, monthly phone challenge, no phone at meals. Say you look at the phone three hours at each of those meals, right? You add that up by the end of the year, it's close to 70 something days.

So if you just don't look at your phone at three meals every day, you get 71 days of your life back. So last year, just with all the, you know, the events that students did in their clubs, they got about an average of 144 hours back from their lives, just. And so, yeah, at the end of the year, you know, we bring in a speaker each semester as well to speak on the topic.

And then at the end of the year, the Humanality Club throws a concert for the whole [00:32:00] school with the cost of admission being your phone. So you just act to experience music without a screen. So students are, I mean, they're literally having like transformative experiences. Experiences so you have to realize like this generation now grew up on the smartphone.

So they're learning how to interact. They're learning how to flirt and go on a date. And I mean literally like learning how to ask people out in person. You know, they're learning how to do new things. Like there's a guy in our club that was addicted to YouTube got off YouTube and he realized and I want to emphasize this point in a moment.

He realized that he had the desire to learn to sing and play guitar. And now he's like playing events and learn how to sing. And like, that's exactly what I love. I really believe humanity is going to help people get their time back. Their lives back. We're going to have the newest, best artists, authors, physicians, lawyers, teachers.

They're going to come out of these clubs, um, looking very different from their generation. Because [00:33:00] they're going to be more human and being more fully human, they're going to be happier. And we also have some fun like sauna challenges and cold plunge challenges and circadian challenges where you have to watch the sunrise and sunset and not let the screen be the first thing your eyes see, but actual morning sunlight.

So we're incorporating a lot of wellness principles too. And yeah, right now we're, you know, in six universities, we have a waiting list of high schools and we're just kind of about to take off. We're just kind of in this process of Preparation, you know, kind of period here, gathering all the data and getting ready to, to blast out the world.

The funny thing is you probably don't know this is happening because we're not on any social media platforms. So that's part of the gift of podcast and I actually love podcasts. Long form podcasts are amazing. Um, I myself was addicted to podcasts as well. So I had to actually find that balance as well of like I was listening to too much good information.

I would say i'm a recovering addict of information. So in my car rides, it was filled with [00:34:00] podcast and my workouts is filled with podcasts and my flights is filled with pocket. I'd say even good things, all good things. Um, so I've even had to found my own new methods moving forward to not be constantly consuming information.

And miss out on information and that's been extremely healing for myself. But anyway, that's a little bit of what is happening in the clubs. Um, and students are responding in an incredible way.

Joey: So good. I'm sure there's so many benefits. Um, what are kind of the biggest benefits you've seen? And if someone wants to jump into this, what's the first step?

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Most of all, the guide helps you feel less alone and more in control when the holidays hit. You can get the free guide@restoredministry.com slash holidays or just click the link in the show notes.

Andrew: Yeah, so if you're at one of our six schools, if you're at, um, Christendom Ave, Maria Franciscan University, university of Dallas, Benedictine, or tac, you can join a club there if you want.

Start a club at your university. You can be totally secular this again. This is not a religious political thing Anyone can start a humanality village at your university So if you want to do that just reach out to us from our website Humanality org and we'll help you start a club, but really If you just find a few people that want to do this together, that's, that's really all it takes you would be amazed.

I mean, average year one of humanity villages starting was 40 plus students. Like we're all in, you know, um, we've had as much as 60 students in one of our villages around the country. So really, if you're at one of those universities, Join, [00:36:00] and if you want to start one at your own university, there's nothing stopping you.

There's no startup fees. You essentially create the club and you fundraise. Each club fundraise for what they want to experience, whether they want to fund the phones, Humanity merch, the speaker, the concert at the end of the year, other phone free activities. You got, you know, they get to fundraise and they create the experiences they want.

So that's a great place to start. And then I'd say for the general population, um, we're going to have some resources for them as well, probably in the next couple of months. But the best thing you can do right now is probably go through our 30 day digital detox with HALO. Uh, which everyone always is like, Oh, that's an app.

What do you do it? You know, and my answer again is we are not opposed to technology. HALO is not trying to addict you through social approval and intermittent positive feedback. We are happy with our partnership with them and in the coming weeks, we're going to have a 30 day digital detox, uh, you can go through with hallow.

So I'd point people there and that's going to walk you through all the data, [00:37:00] all the hacks, all the ways to move forward. And I, and I mean, I know people say this about a lot of other things, but this is so particularly true to this movement. I literally believe this is going to change your life because your life comes down to time and attention.

And right now our time and attention is being sucked into the abyss. When you get your time and attention back, it's going to change your life, you know, and here's the thing, my life hasn't gotten any easier once I've gotten off of these technologies. My life is still difficult in many ways, but I think my capacity to be resilient and have incredible friendships, have a prayer life, exercise, sleep, the average American is losing 30 minutes of sleep per night.

That's largely due to the invention of the light bulb, but also social media and our devices. I mean, life doesn't just get easier all of a sudden because I got off of Instagram, but it does actually become incredibly more fulfilling. So I just want to invite people. I know this is scary. This is terrifying for most humans to think about not being on these platforms.[00:38:00]

And even if you get amazing information, because there are incredible pieces of information, all these platforms. The detriment along with it, I think outweighs the good. And even if you just take a break, maybe this isn't what you have to do the rest of your life. Go on a 30 day detox. Maybe go to a light phone for a year.

Like what's one year of your life going to look like if you just went to life and like do a scientific experiment and just see what happens if you want to go back to your smartphone later and go back to all your social media platforms, do it, but just give it a chance. Like, don't look at the news, which I know is really difficult during this time in our society, but imagine just not going on the news for 30 days.

Here's what I found that was super interesting when I didn't go on the news for 30 days. The world kept happening, like reality didn't like just explode into oblivion, you know, like life kept happening, you know, and I knew what was happening in my environment and my village and I was happier for it. So, um, I hope that [00:39:00] encourages people.

There's a huge fear aspect to this of missing out, not having real connections, being lonelier. I've experienced the complete opposite and most people will too. You really have to take that leap of faith, but find someone to deal with. And two major predictors of actually long term sustained behavior change is your environment and accountability and the humanity club.

You get both your environment is now a group of people. That are opting out of this norm of being on these platforms and you have accountability. So maybe go through this 30 day detox with hollow, you know, with your family, with your coworkers, with your friends, we're also going to have stuff available for anyone soon, but yeah, that would be my encouragement moving forward is.

Take a leap of faith, like just do a scientific experiment and see what happens.

Joey: So good, man. Thank you so much for being here. I, I just love the work you're doing and I'm excited to promote it to our audience. I, um, yes, when you were speaking, just all I could think of is like, this is such a barrier to doing, building marriage, building, like, Date, like whatever this stands is such a huge barrier.

So I love the work [00:40:00] you're doing. I love how simple it is. And I love how yeah, novel too. I think it's simple and novel at the same time, which is a hard thing to pull off. So well done, man, really appreciate you and the work you're doing, your wealth of information too. This has been awesome. Again, everyone, I invite you to check out humanality.

org. We'll link to that in the show notes and yeah, just want to give you final last word, like what final encouragement or advice would you offer to everyone listening, especially if they feel maybe a bit. Heavy or the weight of what we've spoken about and even discourage any just kind of spoke to that but any final words of wisdom

Andrew: yeah i'd say don't be afraid to heal and i really think what these technologies have done to us we have to be willing to enter into a healing process and that's painful and i'll never forget i was playing an event with my band in west point.

This navy seal ranger dude, whatever, you know, eight kids been to war three times was driving me my band at the airport and he just said something I'll never forget. He said, if you seek comfort, you will deprive yourself of self knowledge. So I'd say one of the things that these devices have done to us, which is really sad, is that we're, we're escaping [00:41:00] our embodied reality and self to see someone else's.

And I would just encourage people that you're worth getting to know. Like get to know yourself in a place of solitude and discover what silence does to you. It's incredibly difficult to get to know yourself and love yourself and your neighbor and God. But I would encourage you to go on that healing journey.

And instead of escaping our emotions and our difficulties, um, to face them. And it's easier said than done. But, uh, the healing process is so worth it. And Dr. Bob Schuetz says that, you know, hurt people hurt people. Heal people heal people and i want to be part of seeing humanity heal i think we need a healing movement i think humanity is it so i just want to encourage people to not be afraid to heal and make some difficult decisions with our relationship with tech.

And you're going to experience healing, and it's going to be amazing.

Joey: That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or [00:42:00] wherever you listen to podcasts. Not only is that the best way to not miss future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will show our show to people who are looking for help, and it only takes a few seconds.

If you've already done that, feel free to review or rate the show. That also helps us reach other people, and we appreciate that feedback. And in closing, always remember, you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life, and we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#132: Why Your Wounds & Subconscious Are Ruling Your Life | Dr. Gregory Bottaro

Carl Jung once said, “Unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate.” 

In this episode, Dr. Greg Bottaro explains why our untreated wounds and our subconscious rule our lives, often without us knowing it. We also discuss:

• How his parents’ divorce impacted him and how he found tremendous healing

• Dr. Bottaro answers your questions, such as:

• How do you heal?

• How do I overcome my extreme fear of marriage and intimacy?

• How can you reconcile and build a strong relationship with parents who’ve been blind for years to the harm their divorce caused for me and my siblings?

• And many more questions related to healing, relationships, your parents, helping others, and even your relationship with God.

• What exactly are abuse and narcissism?

• A NEW resource that’s an alternative to therapy

Register for the CatholicPsych Open House

Schedule a FREE mentorship consultation. (Get 10% off your first month of mentorship with the code: RESTORED24)

Listen to Dr. Bottaro’s podcast, Being Human

Listen to 9 Ways to Pay for Counseling

Submit your question for the show

View Restored’s Resources

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

132_Final

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Joey: [00:00:00] How do you heal, especially from the trauma of your parents divorce?

Dr. Bottaro: We're healed in relationship. So we need relationships. No, no process of healing can happen outside of relationship. And ultimately, it's the relationship with God, which is the foundation for all healing.

Joey: How do I overcome my extreme fear of marriage and intimacy?

Dr. Bottaro: I was so afraid of it that I thought I had a vocation to religious life, and I became a Franciscan friar for three and a half years. Well, what, I mean, nothing in our culture is teaching people that. It's good to stick with things that you want to quit. It's like literally every other part of culture is telling you, like, if you don't want to do something, don't do it.

Joey: How do you differentiate between like abuse and maybe just misbehavior?

Dr. Bottaro: Not having boundaries becomes the opposite of love.

Joey: Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panrello. If you come from a divorce or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that [00:01:00] cycle and build a better life. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Dr.

Greg Bataro. He's a Catholic psychologist, founder of the Catholic Psych Institute and creator of the Catholic Psych Model of Applied Personalism as a mentorship program that you're going to hear about in this show, he's passionate about integrating Catholic philosophy and theology. with relevant psychology currently lives in Connecticut with his wife, Barbara and their seven children.

Carl Jung once said that unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate. In this episode, Dr. Pitaro explains why are untreated wounds. And our subconscious rule our lives often without us even knowing it. We also discuss how his parents divorce really impacted him and how he found tremendous healing.

We discussed the three factors present in all healing. Dr. Pitaro answers your questions. Questions you guys have submitted, such as how do I heal? How do I overcome my extreme fear? of marriage and intimacy. How can, you know, I reconcile and build a strong relationship with my parents who've been blind for years [00:02:00] to the harm that their divorce caused me and my siblings and many more questions related to healing, relationships, your parents, helping others and even your relationship with God.

We also discuss what exactly are abuse and narcissism and he mentions a new resource that's an alternative to therapy. Now, in this conversation, we do talk about God and faith, and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Everyone knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast, and so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here.

But if you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you're to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode. With that, here's our conversation. Dr. Pitar, so good to have you on the show. Welcome. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

It's always a pleasure to speak with a fellow Italian as well. And I know this, um, this topic itself is really near and dear to your heart. If I remember right, you were 17 years old when your parents divorced. To whatever degree you're comfortable sharing what happened and how did that experience impact you?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah. I mean, I was, uh, raised in a, an Italian family. We were [00:03:00] Catholic, you know, in name and in some practice. But, you know, that Italian dimension of family was really like driven home so deeply. And, you know, it was like dinner at Nana's on Sunday was, was definitely like a priority, a place of prevalence of priority over like, I mean, we went to mass, but if the two were ever in conflict, like there's a clear winner, which would win.

So. You know, I was without really realizing it, I had built a foundation on family and there is obviously that's a good thing, but it's not eternal and it's not the same kind of thing as the faith and then it's also subject to the imperfections of this world. And when my parents got divorced. It really cracked the whole foundation on which my family and identity and sense of self was built.

And so, I mean, I'm sure on some level that's gonna be the case for everybody, uh, you know, in some way. But in a very particular way for me, it felt like a real ground shaking, [00:04:00] earth shattering, foundation cracking kind of moment. And, you know, they, they fought for, my parents were trying to work it out for like probably eight years, I think they say.

Um, all through high school, I know they were in therapy, they were trying to figure stuff out, but then, you know, my senior year of high school, I was getting ready to leave for college and that's when they basically said, you know, that's that's we're done with it. We're not trying anymore. Um, you know, so I went off to college and in a lot of ways, when people are trying to find out who they are.

You know, in that new, a new environment, new world, like I was doing that on a whole different level, um, because I was also figuring out how to make sense of the foundation on everything I had, what it meant for that to be cracked. And so I think for me, the real grace, and this was the year 2000 and it was, you know, the Jubilee year.

John Paul II had, had called it the Jubilee year and, and, uh, there was, I just think a significant grace for me to recognize the truth of what the church [00:05:00] teaches above and beyond what my experience of it had been. So, in other words, you know, I think a lot of people. have bad experiences of the church or church teaching or, you know, traumas and wounds and imperfections.

And certainly there's plenty of examples of representatives of the church misrepresenting the church. Uh, and then people have wrong ideas or bad ideas and bad tastes in their mouth about what, what faith is, what religion is for, for whatever reason. I just had this grace to realize it was, it was because my family was not following The principles of the faith that I was suffering so much, and it was through reading this book by John Paul to love and responsibility.

And I read the beautiful articulation of what Catholic marriage is supposed to be. And it made sense of all the pain that I was feeling. Because it's not what my parents were living. It's not what they were promoting. It's not what we were being raised with. And it wasn't what we were being taught. So there was that clear juxtaposition [00:06:00] of this really beautiful ideal and beautiful vision of what to live for and why marriage can make sense.

That it sort of corrected my direction and it actually healed the pain that I was suffering. Wow.

Joey: Incredible. I, um, I can relate so much to your story. And one question I had, did the divorce come as a surprise to you? Like when they broke the news to you, were you pretty shocked or did you see it coming?

Dr. Bottaro: I mean, it's kind of both, like on one hand, cause I, cause I said that they were fighting so much.

They had spent some time, like we had a, a summer place that was at the shore. And, you know, my mom would spend a lot more time there in the summer. And then, you know, my dad would come down on weekends and stuff, but it was like, there's, they're taking some time being apart. Um, and so then when they finally sat us down to tell us what was happening, part of it was not surprising part of it though.

It's like, I don't know, that conversation is a splash of water in the face. That's like, I don't know that, I actually anticipated that happening.

Joey: Okay, no, it makes sense. And, uh, I [00:07:00] know different people react differently to that, but there's some research I've seen that says, um, situations where it's a surprise, like a low conflict marriage, divorce, are actually the most traumatic.

So that's kind of why I was wondering. But you mentioned love and responsibility, the book Love and Responsibility. Um, I've heard you say that that was, yeah, a healing medicine after your parents divorce, like you just said. Aside from just the vision of marriage, the beautiful ideal that you mentioned, were there any other like main takeaways or main points that were the most helpful in healing for you?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, I think in general, it gave me the sense that like a Catholic philosophical approach could make sense of a lot of things that humans experience. It was, it was this real eyeopening recalibration of like, okay, there is actually a book. You know, and people are like, Oh, nobody wrote a book about it or whatever, like parenting or whatever.

It's like, Oh no, there's actually a book, like you can read stuff that makes sense and makes sense of what you're trying to figure out or struggling through. And just having that hope, having that clarity, it's like, when you [00:08:00] realize that everything you've been taught is a lie, but then in the same, Six months somebody hands you the book with all the answers.

It's this incredible salve that is just yeah It was that healing for me that I was like, okay, I'm gonna be okay Like I'll be able to figure this out still

Joey: so good What would you say aside from that book was was most healing for you and the years following the divorce?

Dr. Bottaro: Friendship. I had a really good friend who was part of my youth group.

And then was at, he was at St. John's seminary in Boston. I was at Boston college. Uh, so my friend Colin was, um, we hung out all the time, you know, we'd talk. It's very philosophical. We'd have very deep philosophical conversation. He ended up leaving the seminary. I transferred to Steubenville and then he, he also transferred to Steubenville.

Um, and then at Steubenville, I had a, you know, a lot of flourishing of friendship. That was really life giving. Um, also really good mentorship. I had Peter Kreeft at Boston College. And um, I took [00:09:00] three classes with him. As soon as I knew I was transferring, I just ditched my advisor. And I ditched the course pack.

And I was like, I'm just taking as much as Peter Kreeft has available with us a year while I'm here before I transfer to Steubenville. And I just got to know him. Um, he gave me a lot of really good mentorship and direction. As I was a budding reversion and then getting to Steubenville, obviously a lot of good, you know, good professors.

They're really solid mentorship there. Uh, so yeah, I would say friendship and mentorship and, and then, yeah, just God's grace leading me and, you know, had certain retreat experiences, prayer experiences, just all of it attributed to his grace that he was leading me through all of that at that time.

Joey: Beautiful. I love it. That's so interesting. Like we see this theme throughout, like when we're exposed to good content, you know, like love and responsibility. Dr. Kreef's courses, um, when we're surrounded with good people coaching us in our life, mentors, you know, spiritual doctor, therapists, perhaps. Um, and we have community, like friendships, people who, you know, we're loving on and they're loving us.

Um, that's really such a [00:10:00] good recipe for flourishing. Would you anything else?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, I don't know. I was just going to validate that. Like what we've built into everything we do at Catholic psych is like coaching content in community. That's the three C's are like, well, we try to build everything on. So it's, it's really a recipe for success.

Joey: I love it on that note, we're going to go to audience questions and I'm excited to, yeah, just get your wisdom with these. And some of them are not the easiest, but, uh, but we'll take a jab at them. So the first one comes from Isabel. She's 22 years old and she says, how do you heal, especially from the trauma of your parents divorce?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, that's a, that's a big question. But, um, you know, I think self awareness is really important. And so, you know, people have different ways of coming to deeper self awareness, but that's where mentorship, accompaniment from people who've been there, who know how to handle relationships well. It could be a therapist, it could be a spiritual director, it could be a mentor of sorts, but the model that we use is that we're made in relationship, we're made out of the image of [00:11:00] God, and out of God himself, so in community, so we're made out of relationship, we're formed in relationship, in the family, that's also where we're wounded, so we're healed, and we're healed in relationship.

So, we need relationships. No, no process of healing can happen outside of relationship and ultimately it's a relationship with God, which is the foundation for all healing, but it manifests in the real world through real relationships and so finding people to help you really see yourself better. Like, it's the kind of people that, it's the kind of relationships that are like mirrors, so that when you look into the relationship and the relationship reflects back to you, something deeper about yourself than you previously understood or realized.

So you grow in that self awareness, and then you bring the kinds of stuff that are buried in our unconscious. Into our conscious minds. And when you let the material from the unconscious pass through that threshold into consciousness, we then have capacity to act as [00:12:00] humans with freedom and self determination.

And so that's, that's the healing process. It means becoming more self aware so that we can become more self determined so that we can become a greater self gift.

Joey: I love that and I love your emphasis on kind of uncovering like what's in the subconscious. We had another psychologist on recently and we discussed like, not endorsing all of his work, but we discussed a quote from Carl Jung or something he said of how basically your subconscious like rules your life.

He, he said, I forget the exact quote, but it was something like, you, you will often just like call it fate. But your subconscious is controlling you, and it's so important to like put into words like what's happening below the surface, um, and that's part of the healing process, and that's what I hear you saying.

So, so good. Um, you also reminded me of Jay Stringer came on the podcast in episode 102, and he gave this model. He said what often happens in situations of trauma and brokenness, you have like these three steps. You have fragmentation in your life. You have this brokenness that enters, and then that usually leads to some sort of numbing.

So, you know, we feel so much pain, we need to numb it, and then finally that leads to isolation, where [00:13:00] we feel so ashamed, we just push people away. And so what I hear you saying is like, we need people, we need people in our lives in order to heal. And that could be like a heroic thing. I've learned to even just reach out to someone to ask for help, um, whether it's a mentor in your program, which we'll talk about at the end here, um, or someone else in your life.

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, and it could be the opposite too, because it takes different forms, but sometimes the pushing away can actually be a clinging to. You know, it could be, it could be a dependency also, you know, sometimes there's two reactions to, to trauma relationships and it's, you know, one is that sort of super independence and pushing away and anxious avoidance.

And then the other is this kind of dependent clinging neediness. And it's almost a sense of never being validated. So you're just always hungry for it and always looking for it. But, but, you know, either way, there's just two sides of the same coin because either way, ultimately there's a wound that's, there's a fragmentation.

There's a wound that's not, that hasn't been processed. And it's typically because it's still buried in the unconscious. Like you're not even aware of it. And that is the process. So [00:14:00] it's, by the way, it's also something John Paul too, really kind of already nailed it with a blueprint of the human person psychologically.

And a lot of people don't really appreciate this about JP too, but I think he's the greatest psychologist that ever lived. And he wrote about the unconscious and he talked about the need to. Bring to light the content that's caught in our unconscious into the light of conscious awareness. Wow. And that's the only way to be fully free and to have free human action.

So it's, I mean, it's not, it's not wrong to quote Jung, obviously it's, Jung is amazing. I love, I love Jung, but. I, I always like to just point out how we as Catholics could do a lot more to promote the full work of John Paul too and, and how much he actually contributed to our understanding.

Joey: Uh, I agree a hundred percent and no, I, I'm with you.

And the quote I couldn't think of was he said, uh, unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you'll call it fate. Um, but I agree there's definitely some better sources out there than, than young.

Dr. Bottaro: No, I love that. That's perfect. Perfectly [00:15:00] complimentary to, uh, John Paul II. He talked about it in person, in act, in terms of freedom.

And he said that it's a task of, it's one of the important tasks of morality and education to help people move material from their unconscious to their conscious mind. Wow,

Joey: I did not know that, and I'm sure we could do a whole show on that. Um, moving to the next question, I'll kind of rapid fire at you.

Uh, this is from a woman who's 33 years old. She said, How should I respond to my mother and family members who disagree with my boundaries toward my abusive and unempathetic father who refuses to change? They tolerate him for money, for financial gain, and expect me to do the same.

Dr. Bottaro: Well, again, another loaded question in that there's a lot of nuance.

And, and part of the, I guess, just the disclaimer, the, the, the psychologist disclaimers, you know, you can never speak to a generalized topic like that, or an individual topic in a generalized way and do it justice. So this is not direct psychological advice or direction here, but speaking about boundaries in general, you know, it's, there's, there's multiple layers of [00:16:00] boundaries.

And so the question is asking about, you know, how to support a boundary with that abusive father. But then there's also the boundary of the opinion of the mother or the other family members. So it's, it's really a matter of boundaries all around, you know, and it's, it's looking at each relationship and then figuring out what are the appropriate responsibilities that I own?

And then what are the responsibilities that I don't own? So making mom happy is not a responsibility of the child any more than succumbing to dad's. You know, violent behavior or negative behavior. And so it's like we can't do just one and not the other. We have to sort of look at all the boundaries in the whole system and recognize the path is going to be forward through that.

Joey: That makes so much sense. And I think so many of the audience members that we Walk with the young people we walk with, like they really struggle with this boundary idea. I think there's this idea that if you really love someone boundaries aren't necessary, they're not a part of the relationship or, you know, the enforcement of boundaries is a way that you're [00:17:00] hurting someone and therefore again, not loving them.

That's not true though. Right?

Dr. Bottaro: No, of course not. In fact, people, you know, people don't really appreciate enough how like holding boundaries is the most loving thing you can do. And sadly, not having boundaries becomes the opposite of love. And this is a really hard concept and it's a really hard thing to walk with people about because it's, this is not with judgment, but when you've been the recipient of abuse or trauma or traumatic situations, you kind of build a whole defense system around it and you have, you know, patterns of, you know, Survival, which is like, all right, well, you know, if I'm getting a bunch of garbage from one person, like I'm going to look for validation from the other person.

Like that's how I get by, you know, or if I, if I keep this person happy, I don't have to deal with yet another person who's mad at me, but at the end of the day, we have to sort of come around to it. Like, okay, maybe there's a psychological reason why that's understandable and we should enter into [00:18:00] it as a psychological issue.

But don't try to make a spiritual justification for it, because if you really go down the spiritual path, you're going to realize you're actually being really selfish. You're defending yourself. You're thinking about how you feel when somebody else is mad at you, for instance, which I wouldn't take that approach.

You know, that's that's not exactly how you're going to help somebody change the pattern. But if they insist. On that sort of spiritualization of it, you can say like, all right, well, if you want to talk about it in that sense, let's really look at it then turns out this is actually the opposite of loving.

And when you set the boundary, you give the other person the best chance possible to maybe have to deal with whatever they've got going on.

Joey: So good. I remember the book that, um, Dr. I think James Dobson wrote. It was titled, I think, Love Must Be Tough. And I had a conversation recently with a young person who was in a situation where she had to kind of use tough love.

And so we talked a little bit about, I think, I learned it from Dr. Henry Cloud about just the difference between hurt and harm. Right. I think that's, that's been really [00:19:00] helpful for me of like, you know, we never want to harm anyone. We never want to degrade them as a person, cause them, you know, irreparable damage, something that's going to like put them down and just do violence to their dignity.

But we might need to hurt them in the sense that we inflict some level of pain because of something that we said that's true. Or, you know, the typical example of like, if you have a tooth that's falling out or has a cavity, you know, you got to get that worked on. If you need a surgery, it's going to hurt.

But it, And ultimately it's going to bring some good, some benefit. And so I think, I think that's so important to remember for all of us. And it's been personally helpful for me when I've needed to put boundaries in place.

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, definitely. That makes a lot of sense.

Microphone (2- ATR USB microphone) & UT-VID 00K0519341-5: If you come from a divorce or broken family, or maybe, you know, someone who does, we are for more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book for video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and built virtue.

So you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that, you know, just go to restored ministry.com/resources or click on the link in the show [00:20:00] notes.

Joey: Next question. A woman 32 years old says, how can you reconcile and build a strong relationship with parents who believe their divorce was harmless and a good thing when it's been the main source of trauma for me and my siblings for the past 20 years?

Dr. Bottaro: That's a good question. I think. You know, you want to think about what, what reconciliation really means, like, what are the expectations there? And I think it's important to acknowledge the desire of a child to be validated perfectly by a parent. We are made in the image of God. With a sense that we should be validated as such.

And it's like, we're born and we know, like we have this innate sense, maybe it's, it's unconscious, it's deeper than what we are aware of, but it's like, we know how good we are and we expect to be validated at that level. And then we're not, ever. And every single person, divorced parents or not, perfect parents or not, saint parents or not, we're gonna be [00:21:00] harmed in some way by the imperfection of our parents, unless you're Jesus.

That's why we need Jesus. And that's why Jesus formation in the Holy Family is so important, because he had Mary and Joseph forming him. He had a perfect humanity that was formed in the perfect home by the perfect family. No one else has that. And so, Our expectation, though, is for that, and so where are we going to get that?

If we're expecting reconciliation with parents to provide the perfection of what we're looking for, it's never going to happen. So we have to first go to the source of our perfect validation, which is through Jesus. Into the heart of the Holy Family, and really take on Joseph as a father and Mary as a mother.

In the way that Jesus humanity was formed in the Holy Family in that way. Our, our hearts can be reformed into Jesus, in union with Jesus in that same way. If that deepest need is satisfied, then we can go to our parents, and we can not have This like infinite insatiable [00:22:00] longing for perfection and we can accept whatever it is that they have to offer and then we can appropriately engage with boundaries according to whatever is the context, whatever is possible in that particular relationship at that particular time, because relationships change, people change all the time, but if we don't go with this infinite need.

Then we can, we can sort of accept the finite circumstances and we can, we can deal with whatever is actually being offered at the time. I think that's a pretty huge spectrum with, you know, more or less healthy dynamics possible. So that's, that's where I like to cover first before getting into like, what does reconciliation look like?

Joey: That's so important. And do you typically recommend, I know the context matters a lot with all these questions, of course, so we're taking a jab at them, but, um, do you typically recommend, like, someone who's in that attempt of building a better relationship with their parents, they're at a level where they at least can have conversations, do you recommend that they go to the parent and express how difficult, how painful it was For them, for the [00:23:00] young person to go through their parents divorce, or is it better not to even broach the topic?

Or does it just depend?

Dr. Bottaro: I mean, it kind of depends. I think that's usually something I recommend somebody has help with, like accompaniment of some sort, mentorship of some sort, but I would say, as a rule of thumb, If somebody's never brought it up, they probably could stand to. If somebody's brought it up a lot, they could probably stand to let it go.

You know, it's kind of like, how many times do you need to bring it up? And finding a balance there, it's like, one time maybe is necessary just for your own sake, like, to know that you tried to bring it up. But if it goes nowhere, if it's met with defensiveness, if it's met with blindness, if it's met with a lack of self awareness on the part of a parent, it's like, what more are you trying to get out of this by pushing this?

And that's where we come back to those unmet needs. And you can't really see the reality, which is that you're probably not going to get that need met here in this relationship. So then you have to decide to, you know, to sort of accept it for what it is.

Joey: It's great advice. It's hard advice for people who, you know, the parent, maybe [00:24:00] even they open up to the parent and the parent just doesn't respond well or even dismisses them.

Or like you said, just goes right over their head and they don't see the harm. But I think that's, that's such good advice. Next question. Angela says 29 years old. Um, how do I overcome my extreme fear of marriage and intimacy? This is obviously a trend we've seen a lot. The research we've seen says that this is the biggest area of struggle for those of us who come from divorce families.

So what would you say to her?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, this is where more of my story. Story is applicable where I, I was so afraid of it that I thought I had a vocation to religious life and I became a Franciscan friar for three and a half years. So I, I understand that fear for sure. And I was so blocked to recognizing that in myself that I didn't realize that's what I was doing.

It actually felt like I was called to religious life and I was really happy about it. I was really joyful and I was joyful for like two years. And it wasn't until like the third year that I started to really feel something missing in religious life. And then that grew into a kind of misery. [00:25:00] And then I felt really stuck.

But I was also, uh, working frequently with Father Benedict Rochelle, who is a priest, psychologist. Founder of the CFR Franciscans and praying a lot, you know, it was like five hours of prayer day, uh, intense mentorship with somebody who knew what he was doing. And I really started to break open where I was hiding from myself and I could see, okay, I'm afraid, I'm afraid to, you know, put children through the pain that I've suffered in the future.

Like if a marriage fails, I'm afraid to go through what my parents went through. And I found a great Holy spiritual way to avoid it. But then, you know, then it didn't work anymore. So I had to like, really come around to the healing. It was through the self awareness, like the healing, you can't just force the healing until you really dredge up from the unconscious, all the things that you're actually thinking and feeling, and then you bring up your actual interior experience into the light of truth.

And then, the readings, the [00:26:00] prayer, the retreats, the counsel, like now it starts to connect. Because you're applying the medicine to the wound as it's opened up. You know, if you put ointment on a band aid that's covering the wound, it's not really gonna touch the wound. So you gotta go through that process.

First, you need to open up the band aid and open up the wound, and then also have the ointment. And it's both together that will work to actually do the healing.

Joey: That makes a lot of

Dr. Bottaro: sense.

Joey: I've Gotten this question from other people as well, related to like, discerning their vocation in life, um, where they might feel called, and I know this is only a part of our audience, but I want to focus on this for a second.

They might feel called to religious life, but they're kind of double guessing that because they think maybe I'm just running for marriage because of what I saw growing up. Any tips on how to decipher between the two of those?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, I think you got to trust God more than yourself and trust the process of discernment.

I can say this, I, you know, I described my vocational discernment where I always tell people, what is the deepest [00:27:00] desire of your heart? Find, you have to spend time in prayer and silence and meditation and counsel and mentorship and, you know, putting yourself in that process to get to that interior. And at the same time recognize that you won't necessarily know if you're looking at the deepest part of your heart.

When I joined the Friars, I looked inside myself and I thought I had this image of looking into my heart, like looking down into my chest as if I was looking into a cave. At the bottom of this cave, I could see a treasure chest. And you know, the treasure chest opened and it was the vocation to the Franciscans.

I was like, if I look inside my heart, I see the deepest desire of my heart is to become a Franciscan. So a long story short, I Jo, I joined in three and a half years later. My image was that the floor of the cave. Cracked open and I, I actually saw light shining up from underneath the floor of the cave through the cracks.

And eventually all the cracks dissipated and the treasure chest fell through the floor to the real deepest. And the [00:28:00] inside of my heart, the deepest part of my heart was actually all light. And when the treasure chest hit the bottom bottom, like the actual bottom, it opened up again. And that was the vocation of marriage.

So. It's really important that I went to the friars. It's really important that I followed the desires of my heart. And I, and I'll never say that it was a mistake, or I had the wrong vocation, or it was misdirected, or that I, because I had to go. God's plan was for me to heal and learn what my vocation was by following where my heart was directing me in 2000.

And that, that's how I got there. So it's part of my story. And it was, it was by following the interior. So you, you just gotta, you gotta be where you are today. You have to follow your heart, what your heart is telling you today with the best that you can and trust that God is going to be with you tomorrow and he's going to help you see new things tomorrow.

And it might be a redirection. It might be something totally different, but within the confines of his will, as it's expressed through [00:29:00] various. context. In other words, now I have a vow of a marriage. Like, it's not like if all of a sudden tomorrow, you know, it's like, Oh, well, the deepest desire of my heart now is to, you know, leave my family and go become a hermit in the mountains.

It's like, no, that's not coming from God because the context matters, but in following faithfully, whatever the context and your relationship with God and your interior life is today, that will be the best next step.

Joey: And it wasn't like some mistake that you went to the friars and went through all that like you, you know, weren't listening to God.

It was through that that he worked and got you to the place where you need to be. So good. Next question from Katie, 22 years old. She says, how can I keep a potential future marriage free from brokenness?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, I, I think the truth is that that's not possible.

Joey: I

Dr. Bottaro: like

Joey: the question though.

Dr. Bottaro: It's an understandable and it's a beautiful and valid question.

It's a valiant question, but I, you know, [00:30:00] I tell young people I work with and I, I do work with young people and coaching them and dating and discernment. And, you know, it's like, yeah, the more you grow in self awareness on the front end, before you get married, the less you're going to be bringing into the marriage.

Yeah. in terms of baggage. So it's worth it. It's worth spending the time now. It's worth growing in intimacy with God and, and really focusing on your prayer life and your intimacy in your spiritual life. Because through intimacy in your spiritual life, God is going to reveal to you the brokenness of your heart that he wants to heal right now.

And even if you don't have your future spouse with you right now, you have God who is your ultimate future spouse with you right now. And you can stop avoiding intimacy with him and let him show you what he wants you to see.

Joey: What would you say to someone who maybe has been working on themselves a while, they have found a lot of healing, um, but maybe they for one reason or another feel the need to kind of continue working on themselves before they're ready, quote unquote, for [00:31:00] marriage?

Because obviously there's some sort of a line there, right? And I think some people maybe don't prepare enough. Like they, you know, just aren't in a good spot health wise, um, as a person, but on the other end, there might be people who are like pushing it off for one reason or another under the guise of like, I just need to kind of work on myself more.

What would you say?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, I think it's kind of implicit, like the answer is implicit in the way the person's reasoning through it. So in other words, if a person's mature, you know, I don't think that there's like a compartmentalized area of like emotional brokenness. And then it's just like reservoir off the side.

And that is, you know, maybe they're thinking they're like, I could get married, but I got to do this extra work. The traumas and the wounds make you think for of reasons why you're not actually, you don't actually want to commit. Like you don't want to take the leap. You don't want to make that sacrifice.

You don't trust, you don't have security, you're not grounded enough in, in your relationship with God. And that manifests in a lot of [00:32:00] objections to moving forward in a relationship, that as you grow and heal, those objections will decrease. So I don't know that it's like this independent variable of, Consideration, I think for the most part, I try to encourage people who are faithful, who understand the commitment of marriage to expect marriage to express and, and, and sort of manifest deeper wounds and different brokenness that they never knew they had to still work on and expect it and be ready for it and then be and say yes to it before they even get married.

And when I, when I married my wife, when I, before I proposed to her, her parents are divorced, my parents are divorced, and we were talking about the future. And I said, you know, if we ever do get married, I am going to want to divorce you. And she was like, wait, this is not a romantic date kind of conversation.

It's like, is this how you propose or something? Yeah, that was like, I'd get down on one knee, [00:33:00] but it was, I was saying, you know, we've both learned that language. And I know for sure that we are going to have difficulties as all people will in marriage. That's part of what we're signing up for. And the way that you and I will translate difficulty will be in the form of our brains coming up with this idea that, okay, now it's time to divorce.

So the commitment we need to make to each other right now. Is that even if that's what we're thinking, that will never be the option on the table and that we're going into this eyes wide open and we've talked about it. And now we know that that's not what's possible. If I ask you that question and you say yes, now there's a, an expectation of what that means.

So I, you know, you got to know that's, what's going to happen. And you have to say yes to sticking with it and committing to it regardless and then stuff comes up and the thought has crossed my mind and the idea has come up and it's like, I didn't sign up for this or I didn't realize this was going to be part of the story or all these things happen and you're like, what the heck?

[00:34:00] But we're going to keep saying yes, no matter what. And we do. And then deeper healing happens and more holiness happens and closeness to God happens. And that's why this is a vocation to holiness and why that's is the primordial sacrament.

Joey: No, it's so good that there's a vow because I've never really known a marriage.

Maybe there's a few out there who were, they didn't feel the temptation to quit. It's just, it comes with the territory. And I think it's so important. I love that you're saying this because it's so important for young people. To hear that, that like, Hey, at some point it's going to get really hard. You're going to be tempted to quit.

People are going to tell you, you should quit. You should be happier. Go find someone else.

Dr. Bottaro: Well, what I mean, nothing in our culture is teaching people that it's good to stick with things that you want to quit education, jobs, like where you live, family, like all this stuff. So if it's toxic, get out of it.

If you can quiet, quit your job, you can quit your job, like whatever. It's like literally every other part of culture is telling you, like, if you don't want to do something, don't do it. So we need to know, getting into marriage, that this is, this is an entirely different thing. But it's worth it. [00:35:00] More worth it than all those other things.

Joey: Yeah, in my experience, like, there's, we've certainly gone through seasons of struggle, but the good far outweighs the bad. And you, like you were saying, I remember Fulton Sheen talking about this, you go through that season of suffering, of struggle, and then if you stay with it, you will end up getting to like a new level.

A new place where there's peace and there's joy and, you know, and even if, again, there's suffering there and, um, even if, you know, I know there's certain people listening right now where maybe their spouse doesn't come around and they leave with another person or they abandon them. And even in that suffering, I think there's like meaning and peace that can be found that yeah, really is confusing to, I think the rest of the world.

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, that's, that's not at all being, uh, naive or, uh, numb to the suffering that happens in real life. It's just always the right answer to stay faithful, stay faithful to God above all, and whatever circumstance God has allowed to be a part of your story. He's planned it for a reason for you to grow closer to him.

Joey: It's great advice. It's hard to swallow, but great advice. And [00:36:00] yeah, and I know we've talked a lot about in the show about situations of abuse where maybe one spouse would need to get to safety and that's what we preach and I know the church teaches that too. But um, but always stay, stay faithful to the vows that you make.

That's a great message.

Dr. Bottaro: And that's the case where with mentorship, especially if you need it, but you might need to see that being faithful in that circumstance is separating. That's the, that's the loving thing. Going back to where we started with boundaries, setting boundaries is actually the most loving thing to do in that case, that is the manifestation of fidelity to the vow

Joey: question on that.

How do you differentiate between like abuse and maybe just misbehavior? Cause I think there's this tendency I've seen two kind of camps, two extremes. On one hand, maybe. People who call, um, nothing abuse. They kind of tolerate everything to like a really unhealthy extent. On the other end of the spectrum, you have people who call everything abuse.

Like any sort of misbehavior is classified as abuse. Where's that line? Like, what does it look like? Especially if someone's in a situation where they're maybe not sure if something is abused or not.

Dr. Bottaro: This is very nuanced, it's very individual. [00:37:00] And so it has to do with, you know, I think, I think of it as two different levers or spectrums.

And there's the spectrum of the behavior. And then there's the spectrum of the individual, I don't want to say tolerance, that's not the right word, but a kind of individual threshold. Of resilience and that is in no way shape or form meant to come across like a judgment on the quote unquote victim or the non perpetrator but studies show and research shows and reality shows that some people have different thresholds of resilience than others and a lot of that has to do with family of origin and background and and other life experiences other traumas so there are stories of the saints where you know a spouse was physically emotionally sexually abusive.

Transcribed But a spouse sort of just accepts it, you know, in a way of sort of, you know, offering up the suffering, praying for the spouse, you know, trying to be that example. And this is not in any kind of way of like a dependency or, uh, you know, an [00:38:00] enabling, but it's like kind of taking the higher road sort of thing and maybe creating space or boundaries or separation where necessary.

But the interior disposition of that person Is almost unflappable in the face of this other person's bad behavior. And so that's how we can see two different thresholds and spectrums that are happening here. And so we have to kind of evaluate both. If somebody doesn't have the resilience and somebody is crumbling.

And their life is falling apart and they're overrun with depression, anxiety. They're thinking about suicide. They're thinking about like on and on. That's nothing that's wrong with that person that somehow they're weak, but that's part of the discernment process of like, all right, this has gone too far for me.

And I like, that's where my threshold maybe is different than another person's threshold. And that's where, you know, it's like, think about it just in terms of like weather. I mean, people have different thresholds for. You know, stomaching cold weather, you know, and some people might be like, I just can't, I have like my constitution.

[00:39:00] I'm like, so sensitive to cold. Like I'm like this, actually, I can't stand the cold weather. So, so people want to go skiing or they want to go into these circumstances, these environmental circumstances that I consider abusive. And I'm like, I'm not going there. I'm going to set a boundary. And then other people are like, yeah, it's not that bad.

And like, I'm getting something out of it. That's better than what the cold is that I'm suffering. Okay. That's fine for you. So there is. A nuanced individual take on this, and I think, you know, in every circumstance, whatever your reaction is, whatever your response is, you can put it in context of an act of gift of self, an act of love, and this is the right way to look at it every time.

This is the holy way, the virtuous way, the Catholic way, whatever you're suffering, you can say, do I need to set a boundary out of love? Do I need to leave this person out of love? Do I need to call this out out of love? You know, do I need to forgive this person and reconcile [00:40:00] out of love? Like taking into consideration where I'm at, and then where the other person is at, and then discerning what is, The contextualized act of love for me here now.

Joey: And that just reinforces your point of having mentors walking with you, people who can speak into your life, who are like really wise and help you discern like these nuance situations. Cause super nuanced. Yeah. Context totally matters. And that's where it's so tricky when we hear a lot of people talk about divorce.

A lot of times it's just so broad and brand it's like too bland. Like you need to get into the. And it's not just black and white. You need to get into the color of the details. And so I love what you said. I think, you know, separating like this idea that, you know, if there's abuse happening, stop that from happening.

Do your best to stop that for happening. Put boundaries in place. If you need to even separate, get to safe. That's what the church says. Um, but, but at the same time, and so I love that you made that point at the same time, like you were saying, like that behavior of the spouse is a separate question. of like the validity of the marriage, right?

Like we always, like you said, stay true to the wedding vows. And so [00:41:00] I think like, so often in our culture, we see love and marriage, especially as conditional. It's like, I'll only be true to my spouse. If they're true to me, I'll only be, you know, faithful. If they're faithful, they're not faithful. I'm not going to be faithful.

And, um, man, what a disaster that's been the last, you know, 30, 40, 50 years.

Dr. Bottaro: A real, just weakening of our sense of, of what it means to be committed to love. Really. I mean, it's really like losing a sense of being a gift of self. It's all about what I'm going to take, what I'm going to get, not what I'm giving

Joey: a hundred percent.

And we won't get into the topic of annulments here and the question of the validity of the marriage. Cause I know that's a topic that's probably coming to some people's minds right now. We'll do that at a different time. Um, but one of the things I wanted to get your thoughts on what we've seen when it comes to kind of discerning the difference between abuse and kind of Bad behavior is like the type one.

So it was like, is it physical, sexual, or is it just verbal? Not that that's not serious, but those are very different. How severe is it? You know, the severity of it, the frequency as well would be another factor. Did this happen just like once [00:42:00] or is it happening, you know, continually and then finally the impact, like you said, on the person, is there anything you would add or change to those different variables?

Dr. Bottaro: No, I think those are all really important considerations. You know, I think just again, looking at like your individual threshold, your interior threshold. Is important. And that also is sort of different variables to it. So it's your own spiritual development, your own emotional development, your own support community.

You know, if you have, if you have good friendships, if you have good family relationships that sort of support you in this situation versus somebody who's kind of all alone, this is, there's are totally different contexts for being able to deal with some of these situations. So yeah, it's, it's pretty complex.

Joey: Yeah, no, I would agree with them.

Dr. Bottaro: I mean, at the end of the day, all of this speaks to the fact that we're not supposed to be doing this stuff alone. Like God never built us to be walking this walk alone and we need each other. And this is a great articulation of why, like, this is one example where it becomes really clear, like, Oh yeah, we're built for accompaniment and support from each other.

Yeah,

Joey: no. And it's, it's so sad to see some [00:43:00] people trying to navigate this all alone. Like what, what a recipe for disaster. So I couldn't agree with you more,

Microphone (2- ATR USB microphone) & UT-VID 00K0519341: We're now accepting questions on the show. That's right. You can submit your question for the restored podcast and we'll answer them on the show. My guests will answer them or I'll answer them. some of the benefits of asking a question, you can ask anything that you want, you know, maybe you feel stuck or unsure how to handle the pain or the challenges from your parents.

Break up. Maybe you're unsure how to begin or even continue healing. Maybe someone, you know, someone you love or you lead is going through their parents' divorce or separation, or maybe just a lot of dysfunction at home. And you need to know how to help them, whatever your question we'll give you specific and practical answers right here on the show.

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Joey: uh, two mentorship program, which is perfect timing with what we're talking about. Um, [00:44:00] Sandra, 57 years old says. If other family members who are children of divorce don't recognize the effects of divorce on their lives, should I try to inform them or let them be?

Dr. Bottaro: It's kind of a loaded question, but you know, in general, I would say like, when you say like family members, dot, dot, dot, it's probably not your job to inform them of anything that you're seeing, you know, for the most part. People, people feel so compelled to want their family to be better, to be healed, to be holier, to be, you know, better, whatever.

But literally, in Jesus Christ's own family, he had the least effect. We are built For whatever reason, by God's design, to have the least impact on the people we are closest to. And if we can accept that and move on, we'll be a lot better for it.

Joey: I would agree with that. There was a friend recently was telling my wife that they were deciding what to do with their kids for school.

And um, the wife came up with this like idea, I think it was like homeschooling. And the husband was [00:45:00] kind of resistant to it. And then he was listening to one of his business podcasts and the guys on the podcast mentioned how they were homeschooling their kids. And he was like, Oh, I'm sold. That's

Dr. Bottaro: exactly, it happens all the time,

Joey: all the time, all the time.

Um, no, I think that's, that's good. And I, um, yeah, it brings in this bigger question, which I don't know, we don't have time to go deep into this, but some people who kind of have this perspective that if things are going well in your life, there's no use to like, No, there's no use in digging up like past trauma and brokenness.

That's like one school of thought I've heard. And the other end, um, people think that, no, there is a lot of value in that because while you might be okay now, if there's stuff under the surface, it can grow, and then you might be facing that in a few years, do you side with one of those schools of thoughts or neither altogether?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, I could totally understand why people don't want to look at that stuff and why people would get jaded about the value of digging stuff up and all that. Yeah. But I mean, this is directly from John Paul too, that we become more human, the more we become aware of the things that are [00:46:00] buried in our unconscious.

And the more that we dredge out the material of our unconscious, that's actually motivating and influencing us. Like Carl Jung also said. Well, we're always going to be sort of enslaved to unconscious motivations. And so to become fully free, to become fully human, to become fully agents of our own self determination, we have a responsibility to bring out the things from our unconscious and to put them into the light of conscious awareness so that we can see clearly why we're doing what we're doing and constantly move more towards a full ownership over self and ownership of the decisions that we're making.

And if we just let the past be the past and never really look at it, it's ignoring a fundamental part of our anthropology of how God built us. Our past is influencing the way that we are acting in the present. So we, we owe it to God and to ourselves to, to look at it.

Joey: I think it's so important too to kind of define like what going well, What life going well means for people [00:47:00] because it's for different people.

It's like, yeah, no, things seem to be going well. Like I have a successful job and making money, but then maybe secretly they're struggling with like an addiction to alcohol or porn or something like that. And so I think it's really important, like you said, that we have this proper anthropology that we understand, like what the human person is meant to be.

So we have some proper to compare it to, because if we just compare it to people who like, You know, they're doing drugs and living on the street. It's like, well, yeah, your life comparatively probably seems to be going well, but that's where I think it's important to, you know, compare it to people who are better than us.

And then the other thing too, I think that often people might miss this. You can kind of think in the terms of physical health. If you think, well, yeah, my physical health is good, you know, I seem to be doing well. But maybe they're not doing anything to grow in health, you know, grow, visit, become more physically fit, for example, and they might be heading slowly down this path of kind of degrading or, um, you know, they're leaving a lot of potential on the table.

Dr. Bottaro: A hundred percent. And also people don't give enough credit to their ability to, to survive their defenses. And so [00:48:00] maybe somebody has bad knees. And they can't go up and down stairs. And so they, they buy a house that's a ranch that only has one level. And then they're like, yeah, things are going great. And more specifically, like in the psychological mental health world, like it doesn't even have to be as clear of a manifestation as like an addiction.

It could be something like somebody with some like narcissistic parts of them. Narcissism naturally attracts other people who are dependent. So you can have somebody that has built a defense pattern and a personality pattern around being narcissistic, but they've also insulated themself by surrounding themselves with people who are dependent and they're never going to get challenged in their narcissism.

And it seems like everything's going fine. I'm great. Everything's fine. What's the problem? What do I need to look at? But it's because you have people around you that will just do whatever you say without really questioning you. will swallow their own discomfort and never, you know, never really bring something up.

So it seems like everything's fine, but the reality is that we [00:49:00] create these worlds around us out of our own defensiveness as a survival instinct. Wow.

Joey: You brought up the topic of narcissism. I have to go there for a second. It seems like today, everyone's calling everyone a narcissist. Is everyone a narcissist or is there a definition, like a clinical definition of narcissism?

I know I personally, I think like we're all narcissists in one way or another. Um, but what's the difference between like a true narcissist and someone who's just prideful?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, there's, there's a number of different personality disorders and dependent is the other one that I mentioned. Uh, there's also something called histrionic.

It's where you're always the center of attention and you're sort of loud and obnoxious most of the time and, um, there's borderline personality disorder. What this means when we designate something as a personality disorder is that the symptoms have crossed a certain threshold and that there is a certain cementedness in these behavioral patterns.

The fact of the matter is we all have a little touch of all of the personality disorders. They just don't all cross the [00:50:00] threshold. And so, yes, you're right. We all have a little bit of narcissism in us. We all have a little dependency in us. We all have a little histrionics in us. We all have a little borderline in us, but how much are we going to actually stick with those patterns when push comes to shove, or when we start to see that there are really negative consequences, it's like, maybe you have a pride That you want things to go your way, but how much do you stick to your guns when you see that you're bulldozing your spouse or that your kids are like crying in a corner because, you know, it's like, all right, well, some people actually won't even register that there's a consequence.

Whereas other people will be like, Whoa, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'll back off now. Like there's a, there's a flexibility. in that pattern. So that's the difference between a full blown disorder. This is something that we teach in our certification program, and one of the sort of interesting exercises, because we teach the different personality disorders, but then we have homework assignments.

Where you have to write [00:51:00] about your own parts that are that personality disorder. So in other words, the week that you learn about narcissism, it's like your reflection paper is like now describe your own narcissism and it's like, there's a mind blowing thing for people to go through. They're like, and it's like, you see it coming, like it's on the syllabus, you know, like borderline is coming up, but then it's like, you, you don't put two and two together until you're like, wait a minute, I have borderline parts.

I have to write about it. I have to reveal it to somebody else. It's like mind blowing, but it actually is true, which is, which is why we can connect with other people when we learn how to do that, we can really accompany people because we all, we're all kind of in the same boat together and we can understand somebody's narcissism because you're relating it also to your own.

It's like nonjudgmental and it's like, Hey, we're in this together, but let me help you. And it comes through with more love than anything else.

Joey: Thanks for making that distinction. That's helpful. The final question before we get into the [00:52:00] mentorship program, a woman's 43 years old says, knowing and feeling are very different things.

Knowing God loves me and feeling his love can sometimes feel like a canyon. How do I bridge that gap?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, great question. And this is true because we have these intellectual faculties, the intellectual part of us, and it's not the same as the deepest subjectivity of our experience, which is, which is why John Paul II is so profound in it as a philosopher and psychologist for our time, because this is where he went, whereas sometimes the sort of Thomistic traditional approach is like, all right, do you understand the truth of this, like the intellectual faculty, but we have these experiences all the time, like.

We can probably teach a course on the mercy of God. Does it mean that we feel it and we're free because of it? Those are light years apart. So in order to enter into experientially the love of God, this is why, again, we have to dredge out the blocks that are hidden in our unconscious. Your intellectual faculty is in your [00:53:00] conscious mind.

Your memory is in your unconscious until you dredge it out into the intellectual part of your conscious mind. So the fact is what's happened to us informs our thoughts and feelings and our will, but that's buried in the unconscious. So we have to do the work of dredging out the handicaps, the hurdles, the wounds, the miseducation.

That's buried in the unconscious.

Joey: So good on that note. Let's talk about the mentorship program. What is it? How does it work and any stories of success like transformation that you can share?

Dr. Bottaro: Oh gosh, we have so many I mean, we've built a model to accompany people. So we primarily have two services now We offer through Catholic psych one is to provide services of accompaniment.

We call it mentorship Where we walk with individuals who are struggling from whatever. And essentially that's what we're doing. We're walking with them to dredge up from their unconscious. All the things that they're not aware is actually motivating their thoughts and feelings and actions, but we're also training other people how to do that.[00:54:00]

And so coming up, I think. I think shortly after this episode airs, we're going to have an open house where we're going to fully open up the doors and show the inside of our certification training program. People could sign up at, at, um, catholicpsych. com slash open house. And that's the registration, free registration to, to come to our open house to see what our program is all about.

And essentially we're teaching people how to integrate faith, reason, and science. To understand yourself and to be able to understand others so that you can accompany them and help them flourish. There's, you know, all sorts of people in all different walks of life. We've had priests, other therapists that want a deeper Catholic integration and foundation of what they're doing.

Teachers, parents. Young students who are coming out of school who want to go to grad school, but maybe for whatever reason, don't want to go get a license. We're not, we're not teaching people how to become licensed therapists. We're teaching people how to do a really Catholic authentic form of accompaniment and mentorship.

We've also had people who are like [00:55:00] retired or sort of in their midlife state where they're trying to figure out how to give back more. So there's a lot of different ways that we can help train people to help others. But we, I mean, we really work with people who. are, you know, suffering from divorce, uh, whether it's their own parents, whether it's their own divorce, whether it's their own marriage, maybe they don't want to get divorced and we mentor marriages so that they can figure out through healthy communication and a deeper sacramental understanding of Catholic marriage, how to find healing.

Instead of succumbing to where most couples end up with now. Um, so that's, you know, by, by applying these principles, we've been able to find a great, great effect, great outcomes that we're starting the studies now putting together the data, but it's really profound how effective this model is. We actually talk with people every day.

Which is very different from like a therapeutic model of, you know, a session once a week or every other week. And so we really go all in with people. We really, we accompany them [00:56:00] every day, we meet them where they're at, and we stick with it. If you're, if you really want to change something, if you really want to work on something, we're there to go all in with the people that we're walking with so that we give them that best chance possible.

Joey: I love that. I love that. And, uh, any top stories? I'm really excited to see the data when it comes out. And I'd love to have you back to talk about that. Cause I think that people would be really interested in how it could help them. Any like top stories come to mind about, man, this person was struggling with this.

They went through mentorship and now they're, they've grown in this way.

Dr. Bottaro: I mean, I've got a hundred. So, I mean, I think really quickly, I mean, addictions, uh, work with a number of, of young men and a couple of women, uh, in the last year who were struggling with. Pornography, addiction, um, internet, you know, just can't get away from social media.

They were feeling depressed, suicidal, and just mired in this world of fantasy and this world of self loathing, self gratification in that sense and freedom. Able to figure out how to get out of that and feel [00:57:00] validated and loved to the extent that they were satisfied where else. Otherwise, that's what they were looking for.

Um, number of people worked, worked through marriage difficulties. Like I was saying before, a lot of people I just find are just not, they don't even know to hope for something better. And unlocking hope so that people have something to strive for. All of a sudden they're able to strive for it, but they don't even realize how much unconscious despair they've already accepted.

And they're living with this sort of sense that like, that's not really going to ever work anyway, not consciously, but buried in the unconscious. Scrupulosity is a big one. We work with a lot of people through scrupulosity. And just getting out of the ruminations and the self doubt, self blame, the fear, deep fear of judgment and wrath of God, the personality disorders.

It's been amazing to see a lot of therapists are trained to avoid personality disorders. Wow. In grad school, it's kind of like the un, unwritten sort of thing. [00:58:00] Like, well, you know, if somebody comes in with borderline or narcissism or whatever, just refer them out. Fine. You know, it just takes a lot out of you to work through some of that stuff as a therapist, but our model is perfect for it.

And it, it just works really well. So we challenge people. We love people, but we, we, it's a kind of a no BS model. And if people really want to work on stuff, we, we put it out there and then, you know, if it's, if it works, it works. So it's not always, sometimes it doesn't, but we don't hold that responsibility of, it's not up to us.

You know, it's, we're providing what we can, but God is the real agent of change and his grace is ultimately what's doing the work. So when you sort of get out of the way, you see all sorts of things happen that, you know, I think most people don't expect to be as easy to, to actually heal.

Joey: Yeah, no, so good.

And you guys have been doing this for years now. And how many people have you helped as mentees?

Dr. Bottaro: You know, I don't know that I've done a full count. I started myself in 2019 before I told anybody what I was doing with this new model of daily accompaniment, and then. After about a year of, of success, I told the [00:59:00] rest of our team that we're doing it.

And then I trained them. And so at this point now we're up to like 250, almost 300 people a month that are going through mentorship with our team. And now we're training new people. So we have lower costs. Uh, mentorship available to work with one of our students and the students get our supervision. So it's kind of like a model of apprenticeship and then when students graduate, some of them become partners and then they're doing the mentorship as well.

So we have their clients. So it's, it's growing pretty quickly. We're serving the church. We have priests coming through the program. They're applying this model to spiritual direction, because it's really a kind of a mix of spiritual direction and therapy. And so they're using it for spiritual direction.

And yeah, it's growing.

Joey: So good. And is it still the model where people sign up for like a month at a time and you do a lot of voice memos? Or is that different?

Dr. Bottaro: No, that's, that's essentially the methodology. So we use an app, and then we go back and forth with voice messages every day. It's like you have this private walkie talkie channel set up with your your mentor.

And then you're, you're having this daily conversation, so you're not really, by [01:00:00] the time you're in it, after a few days, you're, you're sort of just in the dialogue. You're just always having this dialogue, and it's not separated out of your life. So things happen in 24 hours that you bring into the dialogue, but you don't feel like you're starting and stopping an appointment.

You kind of feel like this is the ongoing dialogue that we're having right now.

Joey: Now, I remember that going through therapy myself, like, you know, You get to a point where you're just spending so much time giving context and updating the therapist on like what's going on and it's like half your session's done and it's yeah, so I love this model.

I think it's so wise and a couple questions because I know people are thinking this, um, how much roughly does it cost and how long do people typically stay in the program?

Dr. Bottaro: Um, to receive mentorship itself, we have a sliding scale. So it depends on who you're working with and if, you know, the person has more experience or not, but it could be anywhere from, you know, like a couple of hundred bucks a month for that date, but this is a daily interaction.

So whereas like four sessions during a month might cost like 600, you [01:01:00] know, we do have like our more established mentors are available for the daily interaction for closer to probably a thousand dollars a month. Depending on the training of the person, you know, I get, you know, a partner mentor or somebody else who's less than that.

And then, you know, we, like I said, we have our students available for, you know, three, four, 500 a month as well.

Joey: Love it.

Dr. Bottaro: And then people will stay in the program. Everybody's very different. It's tough. But I, as a general rule of thumb, I tell people to play in on three months to kind of A good handle on pretty much anything that they can bring up.

A lot of times people will work through their initial things so quickly or so deeply that they're like, Oh, I have all these other things I want to work on. And then they just kind of keep benefiting from it. But yeah, it takes a good month to, to really dig into some things. And then. Uh, there's not much that people are suffering from that gets resolved in a month.

So I usually say like, at least give it three months.

Joey: That's so good. And for the whole pricing objection and pricing might change guys, just know that if this is years in the future when you're listening to it, but, um, just one thing I was going to mention is like looking at the lifetime costs of [01:02:00] therapy.

I think it's really important. Cause if you just look at like, oh, well, compared to this other model, I wouldn't be paying as much. It's like, well. If you go to therapy for a year and you're, you know, paying 600 a month, and you know, it's over 6, 000 that you're spending. And, you know, if you do that for years and years, and you're not making much progress, then you're going to be spending a lot of money and you're, you know, suffering continues, or, you know, you're not able to handle it as well.

And, you know, it's just, there's all sorts of frustration and other costs too, in your life. And so what I see is like, it, I think you need to look at it as an investment, whereas if you were to invest in that time, whether it's three months or six months and you get to like a better, healthier place where you no longer maybe need that intensive of a model, that intensive help that can prevent so much additional future, you know, mentorship or need.

And it's similar to our bodies, right? If we take care of our bodies, we get in like a healthier spot. We're not going to be needing to go to the hospital and the doctor all the time.

Dr. Bottaro: A hundred percent. And that's, you know, that's kind of like one of the unjust things about the current model with therapy because You compare [01:03:00] based on a weekly fee.

And yeah, to your point, it's like, Oh, you know, I could do therapy for 60 a week, or I could do therapy for 150 a week, or I could do therapy for 300 a week. And when I was doing therapy, I was charging 300 a week and it was out of pocket self pay. I didn't even work with insurance companies, but I know people were wrapping up their issues faster with me than if you went to some like insurance covered, you know, not to put them down, but.

From what I've worked with in terms of like Catholic charities or some of these other, like institutional organizations, they just don't have the training to be as effective and, you know, you go to somebody with a doctorate who worked for six, seven years before, you know, they, they could have their own license versus somebody with a master's who worked for two years, you know, two years of schooling, and then they hang their shingle.

There's a difference. And if you're not calculating those costs to your point, it's not a fair comparison. Yeah. And so, yeah, you're going to be working on that issue for three years. So calculate 60 a week out for three years. And [01:04:00] also the, the value of three years worth of having not moved forward on the issue, it's like, what is three years of battling through marital difficulties?

Compared to one year of battling through marital difficulties. What do you do with those two extra years where you had a resolution of your, of your marital difficulties? What's that worth as well? So there's a lot that goes into the value of things that people don't necessarily think about. And when it comes to marketing and everything else, it's like, yeah, sure.

It's easy to position something like, Oh, it's only 60 bucks versus whatever. But. There's a lot more to that story.

Joey: No, and that's why I wanted to stay on this topic for a while. And we'll throw in the show notes, guys. We have an episode to kind of give you some creative ways to pay for therapy, because I think that's often a barrier for a lot of people.

So we'll throw that in for you guys. Definitely recommend listening to that. We've gotten a lot of good feedback on that episode, in case you're in a spot where you think maybe you couldn't afford it, or you couldn't figure it out right away. But there's a lot of creative ways. But one of the things I was going to mention, Dr.

DePardot, is um, when I got to college, I played baseball a little bit in college and, uh, I was like shocked at like the quality of [01:05:00] coaching. I was like, you know, through high school, I played travel ball, I, you know, played with like really good guys who ended up, you know, I wasn't at this level, but they ended up going D one or pro.

But when I, you know, the coaches just weren't at that level, but we get to college and we're like being coached by pros that were being coached by these guys who have just so much experience coaching or playing, and it's just like night and day. And I can't imagine what like an actual like pro coach or an Olympian coach compared to like a high school coach.

That's the difference that we're talking about here. So just to tie that together for everyone, if someone wants to do mentorship, um, as you know, a mentee, uh, what's the first step? What can they do today after they're listening to this?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, sure. You go to Catholic psych. com. Um, you can go, you know, I think it's mentorship.

There's a button right there that tells you that says basically like I'm looking for help. And then there's a, a consultation. We'll give you a free consultation. So you just pick a time on our calendar and just have a conversation. And so we'll help you figure out if it's a good fit, if we have a better idea, if you think that there's a safety issue or something else that's there or, um, you know, or who would think [01:06:00] you could sign up with and get started.

So you have a consultation. And then if you think it's a good fit, And then, you know, we have a whole team of people ready with different areas of expertise and specialties in training. And so it could get started right away. Okay. And I imagine you kind of tailor people, you pair them up. Is that right? Or do no, we pair people up.

So yeah, we kind of have a sense of what, you know, based on an application form, there's an intake form that they fill out and people can share sort of what's going on, what they think they need help with, what their history looks like. And then based on that, we have a whole intake team that. Kind of discerns where the right fit is with the right mentor.

Joey: One final question on, on this whole mentorship program. If someone is listening and they're like, I want to be a mentor, you mentioned a little bit of the process, but overall, what does that look like? And how do they get started on that?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot, so definitely come to our open house, October 1st.

catholicpsych. com slash open house, but it's a one to two year program. We pay a quarterly as you work through these four levels. And the first quarter is really a lot of just kind of working on yourself. [01:07:00] You, you get the mentorship that we provide. So every student actually has. Our top tier mentors giving them accompaniment.

And so at every student, you start off, you start taking courses, you have a small group, you have the reading, but there's a lot you're processing in terms of what you're learning and how you're going to start thinking about how you would give this to other people. And you know, in the old days of therapy, everybody, every student had to have a therapist, you know, Freudian analysis, every, every analyst has to be in analysis first.

Well, that practice has kind of gone away, you know, in, in secular therapy, but we think that it's essential because we, you know, you can't give what you don't have. And so we want to make sure that people are shored up and, and have the sort of bandwidth to bear others burdens. Um, so you get it first and then you work through some stuff and you process and you figure out where you're at, but then you move into level two and that's when you'll get a client and we have a practicum and so, you know, we, we give you supervision.

And, you know, through, through that [01:08:00] experience, you're putting together a lot more of the pieces of what you're learning and it becomes a very practical experience.

Joey: Love it. Appreciate that. And definitely recommend you guys check that out as well. Both the mentor program. And then if you were interested in becoming a mentor, uh, go to that open house or just go to that link, uh, at a later date, I assume you guys will have a recording or something on there.

Dr. Bottaro: Yep. There'll be, there'll be another replay on there after. Love it. Love it.

Joey: What other resources do you offer? I know you've written books and things like that. And how can people find you online? And I assume catholicpsych. com is the best place, but what other resources

Dr. Bottaro: Yep. We have, we're on social media at Catholic Psych is our handle everywhere.

LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube. We have a bunch of stuff on YouTube. Um, I wrote a book called The Mindful Catholic, and that's about the integration of mindfulness with abandonment to divine providence, um, as a very psychological and scientific approach to mindfulness. Not some of the new age sort of Buddhist stuff, but the, the more medically proven model of it.

Um, but it's, it fits really nicely with abandonment to divine providence. So that's where I wrote that book about, um, on the website, we have a digital [01:09:00] resources section. So we have something called a virtual retreat, which is an introduction to the way that we do integration and, uh, and some, some other courses and things there.

There's, there's actually a course called Built to Last, which is about marriage, uh, some of the stuff we were talking about today, healing some wounds, learning how to communicate, understanding Catholic sacramentality and what that can do for, for wounds and marriages and trouble. So there's, there's a lot there.

Joey: So good. I appreciate all that. And again, I encourage everyone to check out the, all the links that Dr. Pitaro mentioned. And, um, we'll throw that on the show notes to make it easy for you guys, but Dr. Pitaro, thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, you're so wise. This is so enlightening. I learned a lot and, uh, definitely

Dr. Bottaro: praise God.

Joey: Thank you. Have you back at some point and thank you for helping this audience. Like I know it's near and dear to your heart as well. I want to give you the final word. Uh, what encouragement, what advice would you offer to the you who's perhaps listening right now?

Dr. Bottaro: So, you know, pray the prayer of St.

Augustine, you know, to, to ask God for the grace to know yourself better so that, [01:10:00] and to know him better, uh, to, to just continue down that road, that continual life goal of, of growing in self awareness, self knowledge and knowledge of God.

Joey: If you want more content from Dr. Pitaro, check out his podcast called Being Human.

Lots of solid content on there. We'll link to that in the show notes. And if you're curious about the Mentorship Program, go to catholicsych. com slash apply. They'll answer a lot of your questions. And when you're ready, you can schedule a free 30 minute phone consult. Just click schedule free consultation on that page and pick a time that works for you.

They make it really easy. And they offer pricing for various budgets, and you can actually get 10 percent off your first month with the code restored. 24 again, restored 24. It has to be all caps restored 24 again, go to catholic psych. com slash apply or click the link in the show notes. And that wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or follow on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your podcast app.

Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show [01:11:00] to people who are looking for help. And it only takes a few seconds. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We definitely appreciate that feedback.

And that also helps us reach other people too. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#131: Family Felt Stressful, Tense, & Unstable | Jordana

After 24 years of marriage, Jordana’s parents divorced. Overall, her experience of family felt tense, stressful, and unstable. Once she learned of her parents’ divorce, she went into problem-solver mode, taking on the role of mother for her siblings. 

In this episode, you’ll hear us discuss all of that, plus: 

• How filling a parent role isn’t ideal, but sometimes necessary for a season, and how to handle the guilt about moving forward in your life.

• Her struggles with communicating in relationships and with anxiety overall

• Why it’s so helpful to put your feelings into words, even though it seems too simple to help

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Searching for and Maintaining Peace: A Small Treatise on Peace of Heart

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

131_Final

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Joey: [00:00:00] What was life like for you at home in the years and the months before your parents split?

Jordana: The word that usually comes to mind when I think about that part of my life was tension. It was very high stress for everyone involved. I think I noticed it the most though when I started dating and was in relationships.

Joey: How about emotional problems.

Jordana: The anxiety was probably the biggest one. Hypervigilance was a big one as well. You know, trying to be aware of or anticipating needs in a not healthy way, right? Where I'm like expecting the worst all the time.

Uh, I would hold myself back a lot in, in friendships and relationships. I wouldn't allow myself to kind of like be fully myself. Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

Joey: My guest today is Jordana. Jordana graduated from Rowan University with a bachelor's in psychology. She's passionate about [00:01:00] walking with young people, especially through youth ministry. She joined our team at Restored recently, actually, and we're really happy to have her. I know we're both overjoyed at the opportunity just to work together and to help the young people that we serve.

She's the oldest of five siblings, and, uh, she enjoys singing, playing guitar, and she's happiest out in nature and at the beach. After 24 years of marriage, Jordan and his parents divorced, and before, during, and even after the divorce, Tension, stress, and instability really described her experience of family life.

And once she learned that her parents were getting divorced, she went into problem solving mode, which included taking on the role of being kind of a mother to her siblings. And in this episode, you'll hear us discuss all of that, plus how filling that parent role really isn't ideal, but sometimes it's necessary for a season.

We talk about how to handle the guilt about moving forward in your life and maybe leaving your family and even your siblings. We talk about her Struggles in relationships, especially with communicating and her struggles with her emotions, especially anxiety. We talk about why it's so helpful to put your feelings into words, even though it [00:02:00] might seem too simple to actually help.

And she shares a simple tip to help a sibling or a friend who's struggling. So if you can relate to any of that, this episode is for you. Here's my conversation with Jordana. Jordana, welcome to the show. So good to have you here.

Jordana: Thanks so much, Joey. I'm so excited to be here.

Joey: We're thrilled to not only have you in this episode, but um, as a team member at Resort, just love working with you.

So I'm excited to hear more of your story through this episode. I wanted to start kind of going back in time. What was life like for you at home in the years and the months before your parents split?

Jordana: Sure. Yeah. It's interesting thinking back on it because it was such a mix of obviously good times and bad times.

Stressful times as well. So, you know, there was obviously dysfunction at the root of our family life, but, um, I think everyone kind of tried to ignore it. They tried to, you know, everyone was just trying their best, right? Everyone's doing the best with the tools that they have, especially my parents. And so they were trying to make it seem [00:03:00] like it was okay.

And, uh, but it just created this, um, uneasy tension. You know, the feeling of maybe walking on eggshells or not really quite knowing when someone was going to be upset or something that you would say, you know, as a child, maybe setting one of your parents off the word that usually comes to mind when I think about that part of my life was tension.

Joey: It's a good word. I'm sorry you had to go through all that, but it makes so much sense. And in one of the recent interviews, um, we were talking about how that like security, like as a person feeling secure is kind of like this felt sense of safety. And so often for those of us in broken families, like that's removed from us.

Like, I remember a time in my life where I felt that as a kid, like, I remember like very much. So like, it's this vivid memory I have of like being in the car. With my family, dad, driving mom in the passenger seat and just feeling like nothing in the world could hurt me sort of thing. And there's probably a little bit of delusion because like, there's certainly many things that can hurt you in the world.

But, um, but I think that's like really good and [00:04:00] important. And like that sort of security leads to our ability to like love and flourish. And so when that's kind of like violated and taken away from us, it leads to a lot of problems, which I know we're going to get into.

Jordana: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Joey: So. Next, I'm curious to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, you know, what led your parents to seek, you know, separation of divorce?

Jordana: I guess it's kind of a long story, but to make it short, you know, I'm very, I try to be very conscious of where my parents were coming from, because obviously their stories very much influence what is now my story and my sibling stories, you know, um, So they both came from very difficult childhoods, difficult upbringings, and they themselves really didn't have the support from their parents that they needed growing up.

And so again, you know, this theme of doing the best with the tools that they have, but they didn't really have a lot of tools. And so it just, it built up for those 24 years that they were married and, you know, things got more and more tense, more and more difficult. And I think it just finally became the last straw.

My mom was the one who decided to, you know, [00:05:00] to initiate the divorce. And, uh, yeah, it just kind of all happened after that.

Joey: Okay. No, that makes sense. Um, how long were they married? Do you know that?

Jordana: Uh, 24 years.

Joey: 24 years. Okay. That's fascinating. I've heard a lot of, I know people close to me who like, have similar stories in terms of their parents being married that long.

Cause I know, I think on average, according to the U. S. census, like it's, if you're in a first marriage, it's like seven years typically on average from when you get separated and then one more year. So eight years in total before you get divorced. So it's definitely outside the norm to go that, to be married that long.

Um, but I wonder if that's typical in like faith based marriages, like Christian or Catholic marriages, any thoughts on that?

Jordana: Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that a hundred percent, uh, especially to the degree that we were involved, uh, in the faith, you know, we're, you know, going every Sunday, very involved in our parish, very, very traditional, you know, I don't even know how to, how to phrase it, very traditional lifestyle of Catholicism, uh, and so that I think a hundred percent [00:06:00] impacted it.

Yeah, that and just a lack of support for the alternative, you know, I think maybe it would have happened sooner if one of my parents felt like they would have been able to support themselves being divorced, but didn't really seem like an option.

Joey: Yeah, that, that makes sense. It's not this, and I'm not saying this about your parents, but in general, like, it's not always necessarily that they're like opposed to divorce, but it's just like divorce isn't like a good option for them.

Maybe economically, financially, that makes sense. Yeah,

Jordana: exactly. Exactly. Absolutely.

Joey: Super interesting. Did your parents reach out for help amidst the struggles, if you're comfortable sharing that?

Jordana: Yeah. Yeah, they did. They, um, you know, marriage, retreats, counseling. I, I know that they, they did seek help.

Joey: Okay.

Got it. And maybe, did you see it work in some instances and not in others? Or was it just like kind of short lived?

Jordana: Yeah, I think it was more short lived. Again, when you're living in, you know, You know, if you're living out of the lens of your own brokenness, like my parents were, it just makes it really hard to attempt healing.

I think at least that's what I saw in [00:07:00] my experience of them. And that's, you know, that's what they continued doing. They weren't really, you know, getting to the root, the root root of things to, to get that healing that they needed.

Joey: Totally makes sense. I like the way you talk about it too, about, you know, kind of doing the best that they can with the tools they have.

I think one of the things that I look at my own parents with, it's like, man, I've been given so much more in so many ways, in large part, thanks to them, at least indirectly, than they were really given, like they had to do more with like less. And so I definitely feel grateful to them and to, you know, everyone else in my life who's like kind of helped me, but yeah, it is, it is a really difficult thing, but I, um, one final question on this.

And again, only to the degree you're comfortable sharing. I'm curious, like, did you see those attempts to the best of your memory of like, Going to retreats and therapy and whatever else were they typically like done over like long periods of time like with an intense commitment or was it more like we'll try this and then no we're not going to do it like kind of flaking out.

Jordana: It's an interesting question because I was so Young and a lot of, I actually don't [00:08:00] remember a lot of details sometimes from my childhood, cause I was, I felt very stressed frequently. And the other thing too, was they tried not to show that to the kids. I could definitely give them credit there. You know, they tried not to show us that they were fighting.

They tried not to show that there were problems. And of course that leads to, you know, its own set of problems. But, um, so whenever they, they would go on retreats or they, if they were going to counseling, we didn't really know about it. Um, so it was kind of more like under the table. So,

Joey: okay. Those are too hard to answer that.

Cause one of the things that I've seen in marriages that end up falling apart often, it's because they don't even ask for help. Like there's this kind of this attitude of like, we'll figure it out. I don't know how, but we'll somehow figure it out. Or we'll just like, kind of like muscle our way through it.

That's one attitude that I think Definitely leads to like lots and lots of problems. The other attitude would be like, um, marriages where they kind of tip their toes in like healing and getting help. And it's like, Oh yeah, let's go to therapy. But they go to therapy for like two sessions or four sessions or even like six months, [00:09:00] maybe once a month or whatever.

But it's like in the large scheme of things, the effort that necessary to deal with the. Severity of the brokenness, there's a mismatch. Like they need to do way more effort in order to like, to deal with the brokenness, that's what I've typically seen. And so like, yeah, whereas people are kind of reaching out for help and doing some activity to get help.

Um, and I'm not saying this about your parents, but it's just what I've seen. Um, they might not be doing it at the level that's necessary as if you had a physical illness. It's like, oh, I have cancer. Well I'm just gonna, you know, walk once a week and like try and not one day of the week. I'm not gonna eat sugar.

And then maybe I'll see the doctor like every six months. It's like, well it's not gonna help you get rid of your cancer.

Jordana: Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I think that relates a lot to my parents as well. And it's just the other fact that seeking help. One, itself is hard and two, sticking with it is even harder, especially when, you know, I, I say that as a 26 year old, you know, but it's even harder the older you get and the longer your brokenness has, you know, kind of set into your bones in a way, but yeah, [00:10:00] that, that makes sense.

Joey: That's so wise. No, I love it. You said like, seeking help is hard. Sticking with it is harder. So, so true. Boom. Quote. I love it. So, so moving on, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced and how old are you now?

Jordana: Yeah. So I was actually 20 when they divorced. I was a senior in college and I am 26 years old now.

Joey: Okay. So you've been living with this a little bit. And how long did the divorce last for them? Was it pretty immediate or did it drag on?

Jordana: So the actual divorce process was about six months. Okay. And then I would say, you know, figuring out how to proceed as a divorced couple probably took even longer. It definitely took longer, you know, a few years at least and obviously still dealing with, you know, the fallout of all of that.

But yeah, so six months for the actual divorce, but several years for actually living that out.

Joey: Fair. Yeah. And I can understand that. How did you learn about the separation, about the divorce and what was your reaction to it?

Jordana: Yeah. I definitely remember that moment. Um, my, I remember my mom [00:11:00] coming to tell me it was just kind of like late at night and I was, I had my own room at the time and she came in and told me that she was going to divorce my dad and it was a very obviously, you know, as to be expected, a great mix of feelings.

I felt not necessarily surprised because I knew that their relationship was broken. Maybe more just, you know, there was certainly still an element of shock, uh, just because of the suddenness of it. And then there was just kind of like a great, great sadness. I just, you know, she, after she left the room, I remember sobbing and just feeling like the floor was like pulled out from underneath me.

You know, kind of just like a sense of like, well, what am I, what am I do now with this information? What do I do going forward? And I kind of immediately went into fix it mode and solution mode and thinking about my siblings. I have five younger siblings and, uh, yeah, just, you know, feeling like any kind of support that I felt like I had.

I felt like at the time I couldn't lean on my parents at all going forward from [00:12:00] that.

Joey: So you felt like you were on your own.

Jordana: Yeah. Mm hmm.

Joey: How did your relationship with your siblings change after you got that news? You mentioned you were worried about them. So I'm curious kind of what shifted.

Jordana: Yeah, that's a good question.

I don't even know if there was necessarily a shift. My siblings and I were always very close, very tight knit, and we still are that way. But I think I just took on, you know, I put a responsibility on myself in that moment of, you know, I need to be there for my siblings. I can put my own feelings and needs aside for them.

because we're in crisis mode right now. And so, you know, I kind of assumed the role of a second mother to, to them and felt like they needed at least somebody to look to who was stable in taking step forward, steps forward, uh, through that process.

Joey: Okay. No, I can relate so much cause I'm number two in my family of six, big family as well.

And, um, and I certainly felt that responsibility and, you know, stepped into that role, especially for certain seasons. Maybe when my like older [00:13:00] brother wasn't around when he was away at college, for example, and just feeling like, yeah, they, in some ways, you know, they lost a parent almost to death and it's like, well, man, these kids need a father in my case, or in your case, they need a mother, they need someone to mother them at least, you know, so I totally see that.

And I, um, I definitely have seen like the negative effects of that in my life. Um, but I've seen a lot of good coming from it, from like, kind of being in that role for them. Like, I think they needed it, even though if it kind of negatively affects people like us in different ways. But I think like sometimes it's unavoidable and for a season of our lives, we kind of have to fill that role as, as unideal as it, as it is.

Jordana: Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that. And it gives you a certain, at least it gave me a certain tenacity and a grit, you know, for, okay, we're dealing with this, with this crisis right now. And I liked that you phrased it as seasons. You know, I certainly wasn't looking at, at it like that at the time, but looking back now and certainly how I view life now is, you know, okay, for this season, this is the role that I think I need to fill, but you're right.

You know, it's, it's, [00:14:00] even if it's unjust or not ideal, it's, it's necessary sometimes.

Joey: Yeah, totally. That's it. I like how you put it. And I, um, What I've seen too is like I felt a lot of guilt kind of moving beyond those roles that I was filling, even going to like college. So I went to junior college for a year.

I did some like AP CLEP exam stuff. So I had some credit college credits as well. So I did junior college for a year and then, um, went off to university to college. And, you know, that was like really hard. And I remember pulling away from like the house and, um, the thing that like, Cut like the pain, like I felt in my chest and that made me tear up was leaving my little siblings.

That was the hardest

Jordana: part. Yeah.

Joey: Yeah. So it was like, I kind of felt guilty. I felt sad. There was a lot of emotion at play there, but something in me knew that me like kind of pursuing the path I felt called to in life would in some way benefit them. Right. So, so that was like something that I kind of had to wrestle with and just make a decision like, okay, I'm going to move forward.

I'm going to kind of seek out, you know, where I'm called and go down that path. And And I've seen that play out, [00:15:00] you know, not, not that it's been perfect in any means and not that it's been like a pure blessing, but it, there's been some struggles, what I'm saying, but by and large, um, for them, I think they've seen, and now being married and having kids and like having my siblings around those kids, like.

That's where I've kind of seen it come a little bit full circle where it's like, okay, this is why I wasn't really supposed to just like stay at home for years and years and years and be like the dad they, you know, hopefully in some level, I'm definitely not a perfect father, husband, but in some level are inspired by that.

And hopefully would, you know, pursue that if that's like the path that they're called to in life. So I think there's something about that, that we often forget about when we're in the midst of it, or maybe feeling like some guilt about moving forward in our own life. Did you feel that guilt as well?

Jordana: Oh my gosh.

Yeah. I was relating very, very much to what you said. Um, so I commuted for college. I didn't go away, which is interesting because that's all I wanted to do was go away for college, wound up staying because it financially wouldn't work out. But you know, you see the Lord's plan. I was meant to stay home. Um, but certainly every time I was going to go out [00:16:00] for an event, or if I was going to go out with my friends, it was a struggle every time.

You know, I wanted to go out and do something for myself when I felt like I needed to stay home with my siblings. Yeah, that was definitely a similar guilt that I struggled with.

Joey: It's a tough spot to be in. And so I think for everyone listening, who maybe feels that too, like give yourself some permission to step out of that role.

Like obviously if there's any really dire situation and you're needed for a season, then we get that. We both had to do that to some extent. Um, but I think in time, kind of like we're, describing, um, it can actually benefit your siblings more if you kind of move forward in life and try to show them what like thriving and living a healthy, like functional life looks like.

Um, that's at least what I've learned. Anything you would add to that?

Jordana: Yeah. No, just that I would fully agree with that. And it's not even that we're, we need to hold ourselves to a standard to be a perfect example for them because like you said, you know, obviously we're never going to be perfect. We're still going to struggle.

But I think. When they see us striving for a healthy life, they see us making an effort to invite peace into our lives, invite peace into our homes and to [00:17:00] create joy and security, especially, you know, when you had such a lack of security, I just think that, you know, them seeing you striving is what's important.

But, um, yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to feel like that as well when you're like, well, I'm not a perfect example either. But yeah, I just think that them, them seeing you strive for being healthy is what's so important.

Joey: I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so often, like, if you think of just everyday life, it's like the habit of like having good habits, whether it's like going to the gym or praying or eating healthy food or working hard, like whatever it is, um, those are the two things that I Point and to some extent, that's like the point is like to build those good habits in your life and hopefully those can be an example to other people, not to be like the perfectly like fit person or eat healthy a hundred percent of the time, or, you know, never make mistakes or never, you know, be the most productive at work.

Like all those things are good things to strive for, but it's not like you're, you're, we're saying you're not going to be like succeeding, quote unquote, every single time at like a. Perfect. Like a plus like a hundred percent of the [00:18:00] time, right. But I think it is like that example of like, okay, no, I'm going after the right things and it does set a good example.

And I've always thought of that, um, saying about how so much more is, uh, caught than taught in our families, especially. And so if you see someone and you surround yourself with people who are like trying to live a healthy life and doing like. Good things with their lives. Like you're going to typically be like drawn to that and pulled in that direction.

Um, the same is true of the opposite. If you're surrounding yourself with people who aren't good for you and kind of pull you down and they have like bad habits in their lives, then you're going to be tempted to do that stuff as well. So, um, so I think it's very true for our siblings as well. If we can be somewhat of an example, I always call myself like more of like a guinea pig, like, uh, you can kind of learn from some of the good and learn from the bad as well, because I've certainly made mistakes, but

Jordana: yeah.

Yep. I agree completely.

Joey: Awesome. What was life like for you during the separation and the divorce? You already touched on kind of the role you had to play with your siblings and anything else you'd add though.

Jordana: Yeah. I mean, it was just, it was very high stress for everyone [00:19:00] involved. I mean, I was in my senior year of college, I was working a couple of jobs.

I. You know, wasn't sleeping, um, like no college student does. Um, yeah, it was just, it was just high stress and it was surviving and just, you know, hoping that the next season was coming as quickly as possible.

Joey: You want to put it behind you and that, and that makes a lot of sense. And I'd imagine my parents divorce, unfortunately, spanned out like three years.

So it was like more of like a marathon. Um, and I imagine with a shorter divorce, there's like a, an extent of like whiplash. I remember talking with, um, a coworker in the past who was sharing with me, um, just about how her parents divorce had been like really fast. It was during COVID and when they were doing like stuff online and things actually got more efficient and we're moving pretty fast.

And I think it was like a matter of like a week or something like that. I can't remember the exact timeline. So I think she had kind of experienced in her siblings experience, like a. Bit of whiplash. Did you feel that too or maybe not?

Jordana: That's a great question. [00:20:00] Looking back on it, it didn't feel like whiplash to me.

Yeah, I don't, I don't think so. I think it just felt like, the whole time just felt like scrambling. So maybe it was a little bit of whiplash. You know, it just felt like I was, we were scrambling to put pieces back together and somehow create some kind of stability again as soon as possible.

Joey: That makes so much sense.

And that that word stability is a good one because I think that's like one of the primary things that's removed from the lives of like children regardless of their age when the parents divorce it's it really is and not that it was perfectly stable before but you know it's like there's a broken foundation and then there's like no foundation so to speak and I think it's um it's definitely a really really difficult thing to to go through.

When did you realize that the dysfunction and the divorce were affecting you? Negatively. Like, was it something you woke up and like, Oh gosh, this is affecting me. I didn't realize it. Or were you always kind of aware of it or was it more gradual? What do you think?

Jordana: Yeah, I suppose it was more gradual. I was always very inclined to [00:21:00] people's behavior, which was why I studied psychology in college and very much enjoyed it.

And so there was definitely a level of self awareness for myself. And so it was, but it was more removed. There was a bit of a disconnect. I was like, okay, I know that divorce will affect people in X, Y, and Z. And so I would kind of be on the lookout for that for myself, but you can only be an objective perspective of yourself for so long.

Uh, it's not very sustainable. So I think I noticed it the most, though, when I started dating and was in relationships, I think that was the biggest area that it definitely impacted me. Um, you know, I started noticing, wow, I'm really anxious all of the time. I'm always on edge. I always feel tension. I am so fixated on what other people are thinking of me and am I doing something wrong?

I always felt like I was doing something wrong and communication was terrible. So all of those, all of those ways, I think that started, I started to realize that when I was getting into [00:22:00] relationships and dating.

Joey: If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed for you. to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes. No, makes so much sense. And thanks for sharing all that. Um, how about emotional problems? What emotional problems have you experienced?

Jordana: Yeah. Well, I mean, I would say the anxiety was probably the biggest one. Um, I had the most difficult time keeping that in check.

Yeah. Cause it would just, it would just spill over into all of my interactions with people. Like I was impacting every relationship, you know, not just romantic relationships. Yeah. And I think, I think that was just the biggest thing, like fixating on what other people were thinking. And so I was just, fearful and anxious all of the time.[00:23:00]

Joey: Okay. And was that the primary like source of the anxiety kind of like other people's opinion of your perception of you, or was there kind of other things that played out in relationships that caused you to feel anxious?

Jordana: Yeah, I think that was the pri the primary thing that would drive it. And so I would, Be very focused on things that I was saying or things that I was doing, but there was just also a lot of fear, you know, having seen my parents example, having lived their example, that was always a driving fear behind that as well.

You know, I don't want that to happen to me. And again, being aware of, I know that this will affect me in this way and that repeating the cycle is so likely that fear definitely drove it a lot.

Joey: Okay. No, I can relate a lot with that. I think a lot of everyone in this thing can too. Um, who comes from a broken family.

It's like, we want better. We went different. What about bad habits? What bad habits did you fall into to whatever you're comfortable sharing?

Jordana: Sure. Yeah. I think mine were, they were really more emotional, bad habits. Um, maybe that's a way to categorize it, but, uh, I would hold myself [00:24:00] back a lot in, in friendships and relationships.

I wouldn't allow myself to kind of like be fully myself. I wouldn't communicate my needs or my wants. And I would consider that a habit because it just became so second nature for me to not acknowledge anything that I wanted or needed from other people, you know, to the point where I was just making myself miserable because I wasn't, you know, I wasn't either asking for help or I wasn't allowing myself to receive love or help from other people.

That's been a really hard habit to break.

Joey: Yeah. Kind of what I hear you saying is like that fierce independence that. And, and you also mentioned that, um, just kind of like being the chameleon, like changing to kind of be and do what people want instead of maybe just like being yourself and kind of having the attitude of like, you can take it or leave it.

This is me.

Jordana: Yeah. Yeah. I certainly was not like that at all. Yeah. No,

Joey: I, I definitely hear you. And I've seen, we've seen that a lot with like people from broken families, like we're really good at like [00:25:00] reading a crowd and like, you know, not everyone, but like on average, like we're good at reading a crowd and just kind of understanding like what people kind of expect us to be and trying to like fit into that mold.

And yeah. And I think, you know, as you probably can imagine, like, um, so much of it just comes from, you know, Maybe different expectations of our parents and needing to kind of switch roles, whether it's like going over to dad's house or mom's house, or even things at home, like dealing with one or the other, it can be, can be tricky.

And definitely like we seem to have that experience of kind of switching faces, mass roles.

Jordana: Yeah. Yeah.

Joey: I was also wondering just if you would elaborate a little bit more how. You know, you've struggled in relationships, um, especially romantic relationships. Like, have you seen the brokenness from your family come out there?

Jordana: Sure. Yeah. In several ways, um, communication, like I mentioned, was probably the biggest one again, you know, not expressing what I really needed or, or wanted, you know, something as, as small as asking if my significant other wanted to go do something, you know, that like, [00:26:00] even that small request would give me anxiety The anticipation or the fear of rejection of even something as small as that was pretty detrimental to me.

So that just, I mean, that just like micromanages your every interaction with your significant other. So I think that was the biggest area. Um, and then of course that just kind of led to a constant anxiety and a hypervigilance. Hypervigilance was a big one as well. You know, trying to be aware of or anticipating needs in a not healthy way, right?

Where I'm like expecting the worst. All the time or I'm expecting some kind of negative reaction to anything. So just constantly being on edge in, in romantic relationships.

Joey: Okay. Now I hear you. And again, so many of us listening to you can, can relate. Given all of that, when did you decide to ask for help and what's the, what's been the most helpful thing when it comes to helping you heal and transform into, you know, better, stronger you?

Jordana: I was open to asking for help. I think gradually, you know, it's, it started slowly. I got more [00:27:00] and more comfortable being vulnerable. Um, when I was in college, I was very involved with my Newman center. Um, and so like that sense of community was, was huge for me and started to help me become more vulnerable after my parents divorced.

And, um, so I would say that I was like the start of it, kind of like planting seeds, but just as I was, as I was dating more, as I was, You know, learning more about myself and how I interact with other people. I just kind of start to realize you're like, okay, I can't, this isn't sustainable. I can't continue interacting with others in this unhealthy way.

And I need to do something about it. I need to, you know, if I don't want to repeat the cycle, I have to do something about it. Um, You know, and being, it's funny that, you know, I studied psychology, I was, I'm always been super into it. And I'm always, I was always suggesting that other people got therapy. Um, but I would always put it on the back burner for myself, not because I didn't think that I needed it.

I knew that I would benefit from it and probably needed it, but I just didn't feel like it. I did not physically have the energy to, you know, Pour that time into myself. I think that also came from, you know, [00:28:00] putting my needs aside for for that season. Uh, that just kind of like continued, but I did, you know, finally start going to therapy.

And, uh, so that was a big help. Just helping me to talk about. Uh, how I was feeling, how to put, like, what I was feeling internally into words, because that felt very difficult for me, especially when I was talking to other people, because I was just always thinking about what their reaction was going to be.

And so it didn't give me the freedom to take my time putting things into words. Um, so therapy very much helped me do that. And at the same time, I was just filling myself with all kinds of content, listening to podcasts, watching YouTube videos. You know, um, and listening to other people's stories as well made, made a huge impact on, you know, the journey for healing for me.

Joey: Beautiful. Why do you think it's so helpful to put what you're feeling into words to learn the language you need to articulate your story? It's kind of a fascinating thing and it seems like a really simple kind of almost like something you can skip over. But [00:29:00] it's really not. What are your thoughts on that?

Jordana: Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on that. Um, I just think, you know, your, your interior life, the way that you experience experiences, um, the way you internalize experiences, perhaps being able to have language for that and have another person receive what you specifically are going through, I think is very healing because Then you're not experiencing that rejection, right?

So like this fear of rejection that I kept talking about. And I think maybe a lot of, you know, people from broken families can relate with because maybe their parents didn't always know how or didn't receive them well when they tried to express their feelings, right? And so having, being able to like have the confidence to put language to that and have another person be like, Oh, that makes sense.

You know, maybe they can't relate to what you're going through, but they can understand because of the language that you were using, you know, like, okay, that makes sense that you would feel that way then, or it makes sense that you're internalizing this experience in this way. And it just makes you feel, it makes me feel, you know, understood.

And it's like, okay, I'm not crazy. [00:30:00] Um, I think it, it really lessens the isolating feeling and, you know, the lack of support or a lack of security that that creates.

Joey: That's really good. And that makes a lot of sense. And. I think we've talked about this separately of that, uh, quote, I've heard it from Brené Brown.

She was quoting someone else who said like, the limits of your language are the limits of your world. The limits of your language are the limits of your world. And I think there's so much truth to that. Like if we can't describe our experiences and the things we're feeling, then it really does stifle us.

It like really holds us back in life. Um, and so there's something like really freeing and powerful. And that's a. That's the feedback we've heard the most probably about this podcast is that it frees, it gives people the ability to describe, to put into words their experiences. Um, sometimes, and this always kind of breaks my heart, but sometimes after many, many years of going through their family falling apart, their parents getting divorced, like, you know, I've heard from people in like their 50s, 60s, even heard stories of people in like their 70s.

I'm like, man, I never heard anyone talk about this the way that you guys are. And it's [00:31:00] sad. It's really sad to me that all those years, um, they kind of went through, like you said, isolated, alone, like, kind of maybe dismissing the pain and dismissing like what they had been through. Um, so I think there is something, yeah, so freeing about that.

And I think it also gives you the ability to move beyond it. Cause like, that's the whole goal of everything we're doing here. I know. You know, we're like in the midst of doing this work and we're kind of like living and breathing this every day, but we don't want people to like stay stuck and broken. We want to like move them from that place to a place of like freedom to move on with their life, to kind of close that chapter in the past.

There will always be challenges that come up, but we want them to be like strong and virtuous so they're better able to navigate and handle those challenges, um, and build those healthy relationships. But we don't want anyone to like stay in the past. And I think one of the ways is actually kind of starting with like Hey, this is what happened to me.

Sort of thing. And, um, it's somewhat reminds me of like how in the 12 step programs, like the first step is like kind of admitting that you have a problem. And, uh, and I think one part of admitting you have a problem is like putting language to it.

Jordana: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that because I also, when [00:32:00] you don't have the language, you know, it's just kind of like stored in your body and you're like, I know I'm feeling a certain way, but I don't really know how to explain it.

And, you know, maybe Even I don't even know where it's coming from or what's causing me to feel this way. And so the other element that I would add to that is having the language, being able to move past it because you are able to get to the root, you know, you're like, you're able to put it into words now.

And it's like, okay, well, I, you know, why, why then do I react this way? Why do I feel that way? And, you know, instead of it just being this kind of indescribable. You know, feeling in my chest, feeling in my stomach and in my whole body. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely helps you move past it because you can figure out why.

Joey: Totally. And you make me think in the medical world, right? When you're dealing with some sort of health problem that is nameless, that you don't have a diagnosis for that you can't really figure out, the doctors can't figure out, um, it's really debilitating and there is a, Huge amount of freedom to like putting a name on it, like you have this condition, this is what you're dealing with, you know, hoping that it's like a proper diagnosis of course.

[00:33:00] And, and I think there's like a ton of, yeah, there's definitely a ton of freedom in being able to like put a name on it. Cause then at that point, like if you think in the medical world, then opens up the options of treating it. Because otherwise, you're just kind of like shooting in the dark, like being like, I think this will help.

I don't know if it will help entirely because we don't really know the problem. But once you understand maybe like the problem, then the solutions kind of present themselves. And it makes me think of in the, I forget who said this, but, um, a problem, you know, well defined is a problem half solved. And so if you can get like really clear and Einstein even said something similar.

Um, and I know it's funny, we're relating Einstein to like healing, but I think it applies. Um, he said like talking about kind of his brilliance, he said, it's, it's not that I'm so much smarter. It's just that I stick with the problem longer and, and I don't know if that perfectly translates to healing, but I think there's an important principle in that, like, yeah, if we like really understand our stories and like what we've been through and like how it, We've been affected that gives us the freedom to go seek the help that we need, then leading us to hopefully put that in our past, close that chapter, move on and just thrive in life.

And then the other thing I was thinking of [00:34:00] was how the first time, um, I, you know, really experienced kind of intense, like anxiety, I didn't actually know what I was experiencing. It was, it was just like you said, it was like something I felt in my chest, but I couldn't put. a name to it. Like I knew I was like worried or I knew that I was just didn't feel like at peace, but I didn't know like, Oh wow, you're going through like really intense anxiety right now.

So having the language now gives me a bit of like power over it and like freedom of like, okay, if I experienced that again, then I know what I'm experiencing. So I can then do things or get help. They'll help me kind of counteract that.

Jordana: Yeah. The power in the self mastery, I think is another. big element of that because if you, if it's nameless, you don't know what it is.

It's like, okay, well, how am I, how am I going to harness this? How am I going to move forward? It's just kind of something that feels out of my control and it's just going to keep happening because I can't, you know, put a name to it. I can't, I don't know what solutions are there if there's no name for it.

So I think that actually the medical analogy was, was very, was very apt for that.

Joey: Good. I'm glad that's always been helpful for me because I think when we talk about like emotional healing, [00:35:00] it can be kind of elusive and abstract and I think it's helpfully compared to something that a lot of us like understand better.

Good stuff. I was curious to if there were any particular books, podcasts or other content that have helped you the most.

Jordana: Yeah. Well, certainly your podcast. Um, I remember finding your podcast, uh, very early, uh, this year actually. And, um, I think, you know, actually same for me. It gave me a lot of language also made me feel not alone because I'm hearing other people's stories of similar things that I've been through and it just helps so much, you know, again, with the language and people understanding you, it helps you to feel not so isolated.

And, uh, I was really, really very grateful to the abiding together podcast with sister Mary and James and the restore the glory podcast with Dr. Bob shoots and Dr. Those were just very formational in. My healing journey, especially as of late, I would say in the past couple of years. Um, you know, listening to them talk about how to live healthy, listening to them and their honesty with their [00:36:00] struggles as well, you know, just keeping it very, very real.

And, but at the same time, you know, acknowledging how difficult it is to just, you know, live in general. Um, so yeah, I would say that those. Those certainly. And, um, also by Father Jacques Philippe. Um, I already forgot the, the title of the book. We just talked about it right before recording. Um, but it's about surrender, surrendering to the Lord.

I think that that was like, that was just very eye opening, like maintaining peace and surrender. It just, it shifted my entire spiritual life. It shifted a lot about my mindset and how I approach, uh, you know, difficult things that kind of life throws at you

Joey: and there's plenty of those things. Um, and I think that, you know, Book's name is searching for maintaining peace or peace of heart, something like that.

We'll, we'll link to it in the show notes so you guys can pick it up. And I, I was just saying, um, before we were recording, we were talking about that book and how influential it's been on me and I've read it multiple times and just cause I've needed a different periods in life. It's really been helpful when I've kind of been going through [00:37:00] seasons of like uncertainty or anxiety, like worry that just has brought a lot of peace.

So, and I know you can relate to that. So beautiful and love those podcasts, like great suggestions and definitely recommend everyone listening. Um, check those out if you're looking for more content on healing. Um, what about people? I'm curious what people like for their friends, mentors, whoever have helped you the most?

Jordana: Oh, man, there's actually there's so many I couldn't even bring them all up but Yeah, there's been so many people in all of the different seasons that i've gone through in the past six years people from my newman center, you know, whether it was campus ministers or Uh, you know the priests that were there Priesthood in my parish and just very good.

I thank the Lord every day, man. Like he's really blessed me with the people that he's put in my life, you know, just friends who are also growth oriented, friends who are able to have vulnerable conversations and are passionate about, you know, in the same way as me about, you know, just being better and, you know, living a virtuous life.

You know, I have very, two very close friends that come to mind right now where I'm able to [00:38:00] have those conversations with them. And one of those friends is about 10 years older than me. And, you know, we have conversations like this all the time and she's able to lend me some of her wisdom, you know, being a little bit older than I am and it's just, it's beautiful.

So God is, God is really, really good in that area.

Joey: I love that. And, um, no, I think that's probably been the most influential thing, like the content. has been helpful. Therapy has been helpful, but I think like my relationships with my mentors, like you said, has probably been the most like transformative and healing thing for me too.

So I love that you mentioned that. Did you go to therapy? And if so, what was therapy like for you?

Jordana: Yeah, so I've been in therapy for a couple of years. It was, you know, the actual going to therapy wasn't a struggle for me. Well, after I got over the hurdle of, you know, kind of not feeling like doing it. But the actual like talking about what was bothering me and talking about, you know, where I was struggling, thankfully it was not a challenge for me because I just wanted a solution so bad.

You know, I was like, okay, what do we need to do? You know, what are, where do I need to work on these things to, you know, be better? And so [00:39:00] that was like a really good experience. Like I said, it helped me to communicate and express, you know, what I was actually feeling and, you know, made me, you know, a lot more well spoken, which was, which was really nice.

And it was good to just have a space. I'm sure anyone who's gone to therapy can relate to this, you know, hopefully it was good therapy, you know, having just a space to be able to talk about all of those things, because I didn't feel like I had that, you know, growing up. And, you know, I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that as well.

Just a lot of people don't know how to receive vulnerable things well, right? And so having that space in therapy to be able to talk about that and just, you know, You know, let them, the person on the other side just let me be and exist, you know, is, is healing in itself. So, and I think those are probably the biggest ways that therapy's impacted.

Joey: If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level and makes your brain [00:40:00] healthier, according to neurobiologists.

Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally. Significant events in their lives or less depressed, they're less anxious, they're healthier, and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the same path that you're on, but a bit far behind you, uh, to just hear your advice and to hear your story since they're going through things that you've been through.

And so if you wanna share your story, just go to restored ministry.com. Uh, you can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous. if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restored ministry.

com slash story, or just by clicking the link in the show notes. I like that. I was listening to another podcast. Um, it was actually, it was, um, a pastor of all things at a hospital talking about how like their presence is meant to be like a nonjudgmental comforting presence. And I think that's like kind of describes a therapist for me in a lot of ways.

It's just like, they're there to like kind of walk with you, you know, not judge you. And hopefully even challenge you to grow. [00:41:00] I, that's, I guess the one thing I would add is like the best therapists I've had are ones that not just like are mirrors and are, they reflect everything back to you, but it's more like they see what you're saying.

They see like your struggles and then they challenge you to be better, to do the things that are necessary to move from like where you are to where you want to be in life and whatever arena. Do you remember the type of therapy you've done? I don't mean to get too technical with that, but I'm just curious if you remember.

Jordana: Yeah, no, not at all. I think that's actually very important. So I was doing just regular talk therapy. Um, at first I think it was, you know, very cognitive behavioral therapy focused, you know, where you acknowledge the negative thoughts and then you try to replace them with positive thoughts. more healthy, positive, uh, thoughts.

So it's kind of like a thought rewiring process. Um, and interestingly enough for me, that only helps for so long because you can only battle with your thoughts for a long enough time where it's like, okay, this doesn't really work anymore. Um, and then, you know, most recently I have kind of delved into EMDR therapy, uh, mixed with some IFS.

So that's eye movement therapy. Desensitization, [00:42:00] reprocessing therapy and internal family systems. And it just kind of gets like more practical, at least that's how it felt for me, you know, it was just kind of getting to, okay, you're having these thoughts where we were in the cognitive behavioral realm, but it's like, why are they, why do they keep occurring, you know, and where exactly are they coming from and why are they still coming up, you know, after this, all this time of you trying to replace them with these other thoughts.

Um, and so that has been, that was really, really helpful. Very eye opening. And yeah, it's just, it's like deep work, you know, you're kind of like, instead of just like trimming the grass on top, you're like digging with a shovel underneath and you're like, Oh, these roots are here. That's why these weeds keep growing.

Um, yeah, that's kind of how it felt.

Joey: Wow. No, that's fascinating. And, um, no, we need to, we talked recently about, um, internal family systems, but the EMDR, I'd love to know more about that. I've heard bits and pieces, but I really don't know much about it at all. Um, What are the therapy sessions like with that?

Jordana: Sure. Yeah. So. I did only a couple. She was mostly [00:43:00] IFS focused, but, um, so EMDR is very memory focused, at least in the experiences that I had. Um, so I'm certainly going to not explain this as well because I'm not a psychologist or a scientist, but the science behind it is when your eyes are moving in a bilateral direction left to right.

Um, Your brain is more able to access long term memories. Uh, and so what happens is, uh, we were doing this virtually. So she had a dot on the screen and it was moving left to right. And she was like, okay, we were talking about a specific memory. And she said, think about that memory. And I want you to watch the dot.

So you just kind of like sit there for like 30 seconds. You're watching the dial. You're thinking about the memory and then she stops it. And she asks, okay, you know what, what was coming up for you? While you were doing that. And, you know, maybe some more specific details about the memory will come up or feelings that you were feeling in that moment.

Um, and then so she does like a couple more times where you're thinking about the memory and she adds like another layer to it. The second time she said, okay, now picture yourself in that memory. Like you, your present self now picture yourself in that memory [00:44:00] and we're going to watch the dot again. Right.

And so that kind of like makes it a little bit more intense. Like, you know, what would, what are you feeling, you know, watching yourself in that specific memory. And then the last, you know, One was kind of like, you know, what would you say, how would you offer your help to yourself in that memory or what would you have done in that situation if you now were in that memory, if that makes sense?

Joey: Yeah.

Jordana: So it's very, it's very interesting. And, you know, by the end you kind of, I felt, you know, a little bit of a weight lifted off and I felt it kind of, it creates this compassion for yourself, you know, it's a kind of encouragement to give yourself some grace.

Joey: Yeah, and it sounds like it's based in like brain science and neurobiology, which is fascinating, something to do with like memories and maybe trauma and things like that, like kind of making it so they don't affect your day to day life as much, because that was one of the things we were talking with Dr.

Peter Malinowski in a previous episode about how your subconscious is. Really rules your life in so many ways. And what we see below the surface, like what we perceive of each other is really the tip of the iceberg, like 90 percent of who we are [00:45:00] and like why we do what we do is like below the surface and often like unconscious.

And so, um, that's, it sounds like that's like what it's getting after is trying to kind of correct. Some of that like unconscious is, is that right? Or is that off base?

Jordana: Yeah, that's absolutely the thought behind it. Yeah. It's getting out the shovel and, you know, digging underneath and getting to the, to the roots of the weeds.

Joey: Cool. Okay. That, that makes sense. Huh? Yeah. Thanks for explaining it. What again, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, what kind of ongoing or recent family challenges have you faced?

Jordana: That's a good question. Actually, I feel like in this season that I'm currently in, uh, my family's kind of the most, you know, everybody's doing pretty well.

Um, you know, it's kind of the most stable that we, I think, have all been since the divorce, which is just a, an enormous blessing and I'm so grateful for that. I think that, you know, the most recent challenge was really helping out a couple of my siblings through, uh, mental health challenges, you know, trying to figure out how to be there for them, you know, and, and of course, it was, Some, some elements were because of childhood things [00:46:00] or because of the divorce, but, uh, also just the problems that the divorce created, you know, leading to certain behaviors, if that makes sense.

Um, so I think that, that was probably like the most recent challenge was kind of helping them through that, you know, like, how do I be there for them through that, you know, I'm at this stage in my healing personally, and, you know, how do I get to where they are and support them through that without, you know, Pressuring them without making them feel like I'm not, you know, understanding what they're going through.

Joey: What did you learn through that process? Like another way to say it is yeah What did you learn and what advice would you offer to maybe someone listening right now who? Is going through something similar like they have a family member or even a friend who is going through some struggles Maybe related directly or indirectly to the breakdown of their family their parents divorce Um, yeah, i'm curious like what did you learn and what wisdom would you pass on?

To help them help that person.

Jordana: Sure. Yeah. I don't know. I actually know if I have a very good answer to that because I still feel like I struggle in that area. You know, it's, it's, it's common. It's like, you know, somebody who's going through so much distress and you want to [00:47:00] help, you want to offer a solution, but you know, a solution is not necessarily what they need.

I think my biggest piece of advice really would. Be to just, and this may sound cliche, but just be there for them, you know, make them, make them really know that you are not going anywhere, you know, that you, if they want to talk about anything at all, like you're going to be there for them and you're available and have the capacity to listen to them and, uh, support them through what they're going through.

Joey: I love that. And that's not bad advice at all. I think that's a beautiful principle that we often forget, especially men. Like I'm the worst at it. Cause it's like, Oh, we're so, and in some

Jordana: men,

Joey: I feel like men were more. Yeah. I can certainly be

Jordana: that way. I know that.

Joey: Yeah. Yeah. No, like we, we, we, Probably like the problem solver personality of like, Hey, I know what we need to do to fix this.

And like, yeah, but it's not about fixing the thing. It's more about, yeah, just like being with the person. And this one, uh, psychotherapist, Megan Devine, she talks about how when people are going through difficult times, like when they're grieving, a lot of times we're tempted to [00:48:00] try to like cheer them up and to try to like help them to see the bright side of it or to kind of like move past it maybe faster than they should.

And, um, she says that like the most powerful healing, helpful thing you can do is just like kind of enter into the mess with them and just be with them, just like you said, and that alone is going to help them way more than coming up with the perfect solution, which is so counterintuitive and something that I know is frustrating for me sometimes to do.

But, but that's what people need in that moment. They need the empathy and the empathy, just kind of being, I remember Brene Brown talking about that. Like the difference between sympathy and empathy is like, If your friend falls in the water, like off of a boat, sympathy is like throwing them, like, you know, uh, a life like vest or something.

It's like, Hey, sorry, you fell in like, good luck. Empathy is like jumping in the water with them, just being there in the midst of it and the messiness. And I think there's something like so powerful with that. And, um, not, not to say you can't offer solutions or that you can't, you know, try to help them like out of the mess or.

move forward, get the help that they need a hundred percent. But there's [00:49:00] something about like, even while they're going through that, being the presence in their life, that is just kind of that rock that found, you know, that, um, not necessarily the foundation, cause they need to learn to stand on their own two feet.

But, um, but at least there is like a stable presence and helping them kind of get back on their feet and walk. Walk by themselves, if that's making sense. Anything you'd add to that?

Jordana: Yeah, I think it's kind of a moment to moment thing, kind of like you're looking at your life through seasons. You can kind of look at that situation through moments, right?

There's a moment where they just need support. There's also a moment where, you know, you kind of need to help them pick themselves back up. And cause we never, like you said, we never want people to stay stuck, but, uh, you know, it's just kind of like having prudence to assess what moment needs, what, uh, remedy, I suppose.

Joey: I like that. That's really wise, the moment. So I think that makes sense. Cause yeah, and I think there is a point even in like the grieving process where, I know I've faced this in different situations where we might be tempted to just stay there forever. And even if we've like gone through grieving, we might just feel tempted to like stick in that kind of victim mentality space.

And we, and those moments, in my opinion, we need to [00:50:00] be challenged. So we need to kind of be shaken a little bit and be like, okay, like now what, now what are you going to do? This, this really difficult thing happened and not in like a harsh way, but I think we all need to hear that at some point in grieving.

I don't know the exact like timeline or what, how that looks, but, um, hope to have more answers for you guys on that. But yeah, I think there's something to that. So I love that idea of like seasons or moments of like, they need this now and they'll need this later.

Jordana: Yeah. Yep.

Joey: Really good stuff. Though we are always.

a work in progress. Um, how are, are you in your life better now that you've, you know, put some effort into healing and growth?

Jordana: Yeah, that's a great question. I think that, I mean, my biggest area of struggle was always communication. And I think that's the biggest area that I've improved in. Thanks be to God.

Um, you know, I'm able to kind of take a pause if I need to, you know, express something. I'm able to have language to, uh, talk about things and it's just like such a, it's such a barrier removed, especially in relationships. You know, where I was kind of putting up a wall for vulnerability and intimacy and, [00:51:00] and now it's a lot more removed.

And it certainly wouldn't be that way. I don't think if I hadn't sought out, you know, all of the, the help and, and received that help that I have.

Joey: I love that. And, um, have there been tactics too and things you've learned about better handling anxiety or is that, yeah, I'm just kind of curious of the growth there.

Cause you seem to have grown a lot there as well. If, if I'm not judging that wrong.

Jordana: Yeah, no, you're certainly right about that, because, you know, like I said, I was just constantly living in this like bodily and mental tension all of the time that really just, it was a combination of a lot of things, a combination of time.

It was a combination of, you know, practicing just basic skills, like deep breathing, uh, creating times of rest for myself, you know, taking hold of my thoughts and definitely like prayer. I certainly can't leave that, um, out of this. Uh, you know, like I said, the book about peace and surrender by father Jean Philippe.

That, like, type of spirituality completely shifted how anxious I was feeling. It was, it was pretty incredible. Um, but yeah, all, all of those factors really went into that. And I'm, [00:52:00] again, so grateful to God for that because it's such a miserable way to live. It really is.

Joey: No, it is. I think, yeah, it's even hard to see clearly when you're in the midst of it, like we were talking about before.

So I'm really happy for you to, you know, have a more self mastery over that. That's like really beautiful. And in terms of the communication, you're an awesome communicator. Like this has been a great interview and I, um, even working with you for as long as we have been now, basing it off of what you described and struggling in communication, you've been awesome.

So I can attest to that. I appreciate that

Jordana: very much. I'm glad that you can see the fruits. That's all I could hope for.

Joey: Yeah, no, it's a really good thing. Like even, you know, just good questions you've asked or the way you phrase things, it's never rude, but it's always like, Hey, you know, I need some clarity here, like, Hey, what do I do in this situation?

Or, you know, how can I like help this person or whatever? So I think it's, yeah, you definitely, it's cool to see the growth there. And I know that you're still in that trajectory to grow even more, which is beautiful and we're here cheering you on, of course, if you could, um, speak to your parents, shifting gears a little bit, if you could speak to them honestly about, you know, everything that's happened, what would you want them to know?

What would you say?

Jordana: [00:53:00] Yeah, well, it's certainly a loaded question. Um, I don't know, I think I would just want them to know that. You know, how, how much I consider all the things that they've been through, and maybe they don't realize how much, you know, their, the experiences of their lives have shaped them into who they were and who they, you know, still are now.

And, um, I guess I would, I would just want to like emphasize the importance of that, the importance of taking a look at yourself and the things that you have been through and try to like connect the dots and see, you know, where, where is that impacting you in your life now? Cause I, you know, I think that's just at the root of our whole, all of our stories, you know, in my whole family.

I

Joey: appreciate that honesty. And I just want to thank you for your overall honesty and vulnerability in this conversation. I've learned a lot from you and I know everyone listening has too. So thank you for being here. Thanks for going through this. I am. Just encourage everyone to check out the resources that Jordana mentioned.

We'll link to all that in the show notes so you guys can check them out. And, uh, Jordana, in closing, thanks [00:54:00] again. Uh, just want to give you the final word. And that question is, you know, what advice or encouragement would you offer to the younger you who's perhaps listening right now?

Jordana: Keep going. I think the hope is, you know, hope is the anchor, right?

Like, that's what kept me moving forward. Just the, the optimism, you know, just kind of like a realistic optimism, right? Where, you know, I know things might not be great right now and they might not get better soon, even, even if I wanted to, but, you know, it will be. better. And I can certainly say that from my own life.

Um, yeah, just, you know, keep, keep trudging through, keep walking through, you know, with your rain boots in the mud. Essentially, that's how I feel sometimes. But yeah, just keep the hope, keep trudging through, like it does get better.

Joey: That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your podcast app.

Not only is it the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more apps we'll [00:55:00] suggest our show to people who are looking for help, and it only takes a few seconds. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show that also helps other listeners to find the podcast.

In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. We're here to help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#130: An Exercise to Heal | Dr. Peter Malinoski

If you’re like me, you’ve experienced trauma or brokenness in your life which has led you to seek healing. One method of healing used in therapy is Internal Family Systems. But what exactly is it? And how can it help you?

My guest today, a psychologist and expert in Internal Family Systems, answers those questions, plus:

• A healing exercise that you can do alongside me during this episode

• The result of the exercise for me and both of our thoughts on it

• Why your subconscious is ruling your life

Listen to The Interior Integration for Catholics Podcast

Visit Dr. Peter’s Souls and Hearts

View Restored’s Resources

More Resources from Dr. Peter

Find out more about IFS (Internal Family Systems) with Dr. Peter here

Is IFS really Catholic? Find out from Dr. Peter here

How can IFS help overcome porn use? Dr. Peter’s workshop titled “Working with Part Who Want Porn is here

Check out episodes 49-71 of the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast for a whole series on sexuality and Catholic marriage

Catholics desiring greater interior integration and personal formation – especially human formation – can check out our Resilient Catholics Community within Souls and Hearts

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

130_Final

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[00:00:00] Why is divorce so impactful? So often traumatizing for young people. I like to think about this in terms of a poker analogy, but in terms of your parents and the environment that you were brought up and so forth, that's like the hand that you were dealt, right? You're not going to be judged on the hand you were dealt.

You're going to be judged of the way you played that hand. I think it's really underappreciated how much we need to really be human first so that we can flourish so that we can live lives of joy and peace. What is internal family systems and how might it help someone? What I love about internal family systems and parts of systems approaches is that it helps us to make sense of the chaos inside.

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Dr. Peter Malinowski. He's been a clinical psychologist for the past 20 years.

In Indianapolis and the co founder and president [00:01:00] of Souls and Hearts, where he leads a community for therapists and for Catholics and creates content for their podcast. Dr. Peter is passionate about bridging the psychological and spiritual realms. Uh, he's an expert in helping people uncover the unconscious barriers that really hinder their ability, their capacity to love God and each other, as well as receive love from God and other people.

He's been married for 27 years to his wife, Pam, and they have seven. Children. I'm really excited for you guys to hear this interview. If you're like me, you've experienced trauma, you've experienced brokenness in your life, which has led you to seek healing in some form. And one method of healing that's used in therapy is internal family systems.

It's helped a lot of people and it's becoming even more popular. You've probably heard of it, but what exactly is it and how can it help? You in particular, Dr. Peter, who happens to be an expert in internal family systems, answers those questions in this episode. Plus he leads a healing exercise that you can actually do alongside me in this episode.

We discussed the results of that exercise for me. I got a bit vulnerable. I'm going to share a lot [00:02:00] with you guys in the hope of being really helpful and kind of a Guinea pig. We talk about why your subconscious is ruling your life and why knowledge really isn't enough for healing. And finally, he offers an amazing resource that you can use to help you heal.

and grow. But before we dive into the interview, a few quick things. One, there's some mature content in this episode, so you might want to listen with earphones and if there are kids around. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith, and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this show for a while knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast.

And so wherever you're at, glad you're here. My challenge to you would be this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And lastly, if you're not in a place to do the exercise that Dr. Peter leads, um, maybe you're driving, working out, or doing chores, uh, one suggestion is this, you can actually listen through kind of as an observer, and then set a reminder on your to do list or on your calendar to go back and do the exercise yourself.

But with that, here's the interview. Dr. Peter, so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. [00:03:00] It is amazing to be here, Joey. I so enjoyed meeting you in person at the NEC, at the National Eucharistic Congress. And for us to be able to connect here is just a pleasure and an honor. Right back at you.

And, uh, yeah, it's always cool to meet people in person. I wish we could have done this interview in person as well, but I'm glad we're doing it here now. And I remember telling you, yeah, go ahead. And you did an interview with, with Dr. Jerry for us. So episode 146, like I'm super excited for that to be coming out or maybe it's already out by the time this goes up.

So. Yeah, yeah, we'll link to that, um, I think it'll be around the same time. We'll make sure to link to that episode where I went on your, your show basically with Dr. J. So, um, yeah, but I was just going to say, I read one article from you one night. I was just researching a topic, I forget even what it was, but, um, an article came up and I read the article.

I don't often read articles, especially not all the way through. And I was like, Oh, this is like really, really good. And I kept reading. I was like, this is really good. I'm like, who is this guy? And how have I not heard of him? So, so then I, so then I immediately like. You know, started looking into the [00:04:00] work you guys are doing, which is amazing, which we'll talk a little bit about later.

And then, um, you know, realizing we had mutual friends and connecting there. So anyway, I'm just thrilled to be here with you. And I wanted to start out just talking about why in the world are you doing this work? There's probably a lot of things you could be doing. What, why do you care about helping people to heal and to thrive in life?

Well, you know, early as a very young psychologist, I realized that so many spiritual problems. We're really spiritual consequences of human formation issues. In other words, you know, when my kids had trouble with algebra, sometimes it was because they didn't get the arithmetic right, you know, and so we're really, I'm really about shoring up the natural foundation for the spiritual life and that natural foundation, that's human formation.

I mean, that's straight out of St. Thomas Aquinas, right? Grace perfects nature. It has to have nature to perfect. And so as a Catholic psychologist, that's what my career is all about. And that's the way that I help out in this little corner of human formation in the great big vineyard. You know, this is [00:05:00] where I'm working to kind of in, in the mission of the church.

And that's what really floats my boat. Cause I think it's really underappreciated, you know, how much we need to really be human first so that, you know, we can, we can, Flourish so that we can live lives of joy and peace and love and to draw other people to Christ. We have to be fully human and that requires us to do some, you know, fully human work even before we start getting into all the intellectual formation and the spiritual formation and the pastoral formation.

Good stuff. No, I love that. And that we take a similar approach, at least in thought about how, you know, just, we can't discount the human. It's so important. We can't just like focus on, you know, only the spiritual or the intellectual, like you said, it's so, so important. So to someone listening though, who's like human formation, what, what is that?

And maybe what is it, how does it differ a little bit from personal development, which is maybe a little bit more in like the secular world? You know, I think there's a lot of confusion about that. When I think about human formation, I'm not talking about. You know, personal [00:06:00] development or professional development per se, or, you know, or the kinds of things that you might think about, like, Oh, I'm going to take a course in this.

I'm talking about the raw humanity. I'm talking about like the intensity of emotions. I'm talking about, you know, thoughts, beliefs, attitudes, desires, impulses. I'm talking about the unconscious. The stuff that we don't allow into conscious awareness because it's pretty threatening. So I am about going deep into these things, resolving and healing from wounds that, you know, we sustained when we were little and, and when we were older too, and doing that in a way, obviously I have a therapy practice.

So I do that, you know, with my clients, but I'm also about bringing the best of those resources, like secular resources included into a form, into a way that I can. Other people can access them without actually having to be in therapy or without having to, you know, be in counseling or coaching or something like that.

I love that. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I could see how that would, you know, it's kind of a totally different thing than any sort of active work that you're doing on yourself and like the quote unquote personal development space. So obviously [00:07:00] there's a part of, you know, human formation, human development that would include that, but you're looking at maybe the raw material, the things that right in the past and then how they impact your present and will impact your future.

Did I hear that right? Yeah, exactly. And so, so when we think about human formation, we're talking about like the, the sum total of what's going on and the natural realm within the person. And that crosses so many different domains. That's really good. I remember hearing, um, and you correct me if this is wrong, but Carl Jung.

He has this quote as at least attributed to him that said, unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate. That's right. He said this, he said something like something, I think that's pretty close to exact quote and it's true. It's true. You know, I mean, if you think about an iceberg, you know, and the part of the iceberg that's above the water is what's in conscious awareness.

Well, there's a lot that's below the water and it's, what's below the water that sinks ships. So it's below the water that sinks ships. And so I'm all about elevating those, those icebergs, getting them up out of the water more and more because, you know, [00:08:00] we can go right back to Socrates, right? Know thyself, you know, or to our Lord, right?

Remove the beam from your own eye. And if we are not integrated, if we are fragmented inside, which is an effect of sin, the original sin, the sins of others, our own personal sins. In fact, the word, you know, devil Diablo means scatterer. It means fragmentor. And so we are now understanding within sort of the cutting edge of trauma research and, and theory within psychotherapy, uh, research that One of the hallmarks that's getting a lot of attention now of mental health is integration.

How integrated is the person? And you know what? St. Thomas Aquinas was writing about that in the 12th century. He talks about it in terms of inner unity. Some translators will translate him as saying, it's talking about interior integration, but he's saying that if you don't have that interior integration, if you don't have that inner unity, you're not going to be able to form a union with anyone else.

Wow. Very well. And so the degree to which you [00:09:00] have that inner unity is the limit to which you can form a union with somebody else, including God. And so for those of you in the audience that really want to overcome, you know, this, this, the fragmenting effects of your own, of your own trauma and of your own experience, we really want to have that integration so that we can break these cycles, you know, that are such a focus of, The beautiful work you do on this podcast.

Yeah, no. And likewise, right back at you. You guys are doing it at even a deeper level, which I love. One of the things you made me think of was how so often in our culture, we put such an emphasis on like the cognitive, the intellectual, like knowing like how to, and so for example, it's like, okay, it's great.

If I know a lot about marriage, it's great. If I know a lot about what it takes to have a good marriage, it's very different than like, Acting on that, putting that, implementing it, putting it into action. And that's where I see in my own life and in the lives of the people that we walk with, the young people we walk with, that's the disconnect, the behavior change and whatever other changes in their lives, like don't come [00:10:00] about often because what you're saying, this unconscious, the subconscious, um, these barriers that hold us back.

And so that's where I'm so excited to kind of hear about internal family systems and talk with you more about that. But before I move on, any comments on that? Yeah, absolutely. Like you had this great quote in episode 146 of interior integration for Catholics when you were being interviewed with Jerry Crete and you said, we need to know this in our bones.

And I just love that language. I actually use that language as well. It's not just head knowledge. It's what's going on right in the heart and the heart. We want this integrated throughout all of us so that it doesn't remain simply in the realm of the abstract or the conceptual. Because it's going to have a very limited impact there.

It's not a bad start, but it can't be where we end up. I love that. And that's what hit me right away when I was reading, um, your content. It's so practical. It's so down to earth, which is so good. Cause it's often people in this space are often a little bit elusive, which I think is a struggle for people.

We don't get as much value from it. So I think it's great that you're so practical. Uh, on that note, I know we're going to be talking about internal family systems, but a lot of people listening right now, [00:11:00] including myself have very limited knowledge of that. So what is internal family systems and how might it help someone So internal family systems will originated as a form of therapy and by Richard Schwartz, you know, back in the late 1980s, early 1990s, and he was a family therapist.

And so he was very interested in systems like, how did this, how does the system of a family work? And he found that when he was doing. Family therapy and things were changing in the family and positive ways that that change was not being internalized right away. In other words, there was a pretty significant leg and that there's actually an internal family.

In other words, the father of the family is represented, you know, within the daughter, you know, and the mother of the family is represented in some way within the son. And people are reacting to those internal images or those internal representations more than they're. Reacting to what's actually going on in real time with the real relationships.

And so sort of this idea as a family therapist that, wait a [00:12:00] minute, we have these parts, you know, his clients were starting to talk to him in terms of parts. And so my colleague, uh, Jerry Crete, the co founder of souls and hearts actually wrote a whole book on, on this called, um, let me say the heart where he goes back and traces things historically though, all the way back.

And so there's a whole history within our Catholic church about how we are both a unity and a multiplicity. And that's really one of the central, the central ideas within internal family systems or parts and systems work is that yes, we are one, but we're also many kind of like an orchestra is one, but it's also got these component parts to it.

Right. And so what I think is really helpful is to, is to understand how different parts react to different experiences. So let's just take the case of a divorce. I think there is many reactions to parents divorcing as there are parts within us. And these parts are, are often at fighting about that.

They're polarized about this one part, you know, is really wanting to connect with mom and dad and make peace in the [00:13:00] family. Another part's really angry at mom and dad and wants to be able to express Brass that as a need to sort of get that out and to make them here. Right. And another part is really afraid of what would happen if, if we were real.

So there's this internal civil war going on with all these different factions, aligning and polarizing. And what I love about internal family systems and parts of systems approaches is that it helps us to make sense of the chaos inside, and it helps us to be able to communicate that and to share it and to get it out and to understand it.

And it ultimately, it helps us to love ourselves, to love our neighbors and ultimately to love God, to carry out the two great commandments, which is what really floats my boat about this is that it helps us to carry out the two great commandments upon which the entirety of the law and prophets hang.

And that's the summary of our Catholic faith. Beautiful. I mean, it adds so much meaning to your life too, when you, when you love, when you go beyond yourself. And so I've certainly seen that in my own life, when I'm the most selfish, I'm the most empty and [00:14:00] miserable. When I love the most in a healthy way, I have the most meaning.

I have the most, even like energy and passion for life. And so I think that focus of like love being the meaning of life, we're here to love and to be loved is so key. And then the question becomes, well, what's preventing us from doing that? Well, and that's where I think this framework is. So, Appropriate and so helpful because we can remove those barriers.

Well, and you know, one of the things that we can easily assume, but it's not true. It's one of the great lies is that the obstacles to loving and being loved are always vices, you know, are always, you know, selfishness or something like that. And I would argue that there are, there's a lot in the natural realm that can keep us from, uh, from being loved, uh, that contributes to that, or that, um, keeps us from loving others.

Just natural level developmental work, human formation work that should have been done when we were 18 months old or 14. Four years old. This is before we even reached the age of reason. So we're not responsible for [00:15:00] it. And, and yet if we don't do that work, it's going to, it's going to get in the way of us being able to love.

So again, that's our little corner of the vineyard at souls and hearts, uh, which is all about like that human formation work, that really basic work. I'll give you an example. This is how it all started. Like when I was a psychologist, I realized that when I worked through father issues with my clients, like toxic relational stuff with dad, their relationship with God, the father got so much better.

And I wasn't doing any spiritual work with them. I wasn't doing spiritual direction, nothing in the spiritual realm, but because they got over that human formation issue with dad, dad and father images as toxic, they now were freed up to be able to engage with God as father in a much deeper way, you know, and, and get over some of the issues that they had, you know, in terms of the way they understood God or, you know, experienced God phenomenologically, which was distorted.

These God images were distorted. And so parts, parts, thinking about things in terms of parts and systems really facilitates that. I've looked at, I've looked [00:16:00] at a lot of different models of change over the years, over the decades, over the three decades I've been working in this area. And this, this is really what I'm finding most helpful for people, both in the natural realm and then the ripple effects as they, as they bring this into their spiritual lives as well.

So. Fascinating. I want to shift gears and through that lens, talk about divorce itself and the trauma of divorce. And so I'm curious in your professional opinion, what you've seen in your practice, as well as the research you've seen, like why is divorce so impactful? So often traumatizing for young people who, who go through it, you know, witnessing their parents marriage, maybe having a lot of dysfunction, like extreme dysfunction or a separation or a divorce.

Why is that so impactful? Well, the first primary condition of secure attachment, according to Brown and Elliot, their book, 2016, they reviewed all the attachment literature. Their book is called attachment disturbances in adults. The first primary condition of secure attachment is a felt sense of safety and protection, a [00:17:00] felt sense of safety and protection.

It's not just actually being safe, objectively safe, but it's feeling safe. And the original place that we get that is from our parents, or at least where we should get it. And one of the things about these parts that we were talking about is that we have parts that are very young phenomenologically, like might be two years old, five years old, and parts get stuck at different points when there is experiences that are overwhelming.

One of the definitions of trauma, for example, is. As an experience, that's so overwhelming that it can't be processed using, you know, what we have as our, in our resource, in our resources at the time. So it gets sort of encapsulated. Right. And so when children are young and parents split, there's huge impact on the felt sense of safety and protection, and there's a huge impact on feeling seen, heard, known, and understood, which is the second condition of secure attachment.

And feeling reassured, calmed and soothed the third condition of secure attachment and feeling delighted in [00:18:00] right. And little kids are going to believe that they have some way to control this. They have to have some way that they feel that they can control the events in their lives. And when they look at parents struggling in conflict, the potential for divorce, splitting up separation, that is an existential crisis for kids.

They don't know whether they're going to live through that because their experiences. I need both a mommy and a daddy and they don't have a broader frame of reference to understand like that. There might be other ways to survive this. So they're gonna, they're going to do everything they can to try to keep, try to keep mom and dad together.

And they're going to help. Own it. They're going to feel responsible for it because if they're responsible for it, that means they have the control. If they have the responsibility, then they have the control. There's a fantasy and illusion that by leveraging their position as a little child or an older child in a family, that if they just do the right things, if they say the right things, if they look the right way, if they get good enough grades in school, if they succeed enough in athletics or [00:19:00] whatever it is that they hope would bring mom and dad back together.

They're going to try that. And parents often, whether they're in contentious relationships or not, they have relatively little understanding of how much this impacts kids. The same dynamics go on in, in healthier families too. It's not, it's not unique. So, so yeah, we don't, we don't appreciate often as parents, the impact of the intensity of these things on kids.

Wow. And so parts get stuck holding different parts of this. Right. You know, like I was talking about the rage and the, and the desire and the fear and the yearning, you know, um, and, uh, and so kids are often left to their own devices in these families because there's a lack of attunement to what the internal experience of the child is.

They've got to figure it out on their own, which leads to things being walled off, separated stuff down in the unconscious, the bottom of the iceberg starts getting bigger and bigger. And, um, There's going to be work to do to kind of work through that later in life. Then the same kinds of things happen when, when folks are older though, to like divorce.

A lot of times you will see divorces happen after marriages are 20 to [00:20:00] 30 years along. And the idea behind that is while the kids are grown, they're all at least in high school or they're in college or they're adults, they've launched whatever. So this is the time where we can divorce. We stayed together for the kids.

It has a much. Underappreciated, a very underappreciated impact and intensity of impact because it activates all kinds of things within young adults as well. And I think that is an area that we're only starting to be able to, as a field within traumatology, to be able to understand more deeply.

Everything you said rings so true. It makes me think of just like the common phrase we often use of like, you know, you're acting like a child, you know? And so like what I hear you saying is. Yeah, you actually, that child within you or that part of you that is kind of stuck at that three year old or 10 year old or whatever is actually running the show in that moment because it was triggered in this way or that way.

Am I hearing that right? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I mean, in some ways this is supposed to be the case, right? You know, our Lord said, let the little children come to me and do not hinder them [00:21:00] for the kingdom of God is made up of such as these. If you look at the Latin and the Vulgate, uh, for that verse, the word that's used for little child is parvolo.

And that's a diminutive of the word parvo. Parvo in Latin means little child. So when you make it a diminutive, it's like saying it's a little, little child. Like we're talking like toddlers here. And so, you know, in, in the gospel reading from a few days before we recorded this, you know, our Lord said he put a little child in front of them.

Cause they were arguing about who's going to be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven takes a little child. Whoever does not become like this little child shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Right. And a little child again. And so we need these parts of us that are small, that are young deaf, To help us with those childlike qualities that allow us to connect in right relationship with God, our father, as a beloved little son or a beloved little daughter of God, our father, and also, and also a beloved little son or a beloved little daughter of Mary.

Those are our primary parents. Our primary parents are our spiritual [00:22:00] parents. So one of the beautiful things about this as a psychologist is that I don't have to rely on finding like substitute parents, you know, I mean, if my clients could connect with God as father and Mary as mother, they can take care of any father wound, any mother wound that you could possibly have.

And that's, that's how God works in his providential grace. I think his providential care for us is that any, any problem that he knew was going to happen, any problem in your family, he knew was going to happen before time began. Before time began, he knew every injury you would sustain in being a member of this family and every wound that you would inflict in your own children.

You were a grownup and he had a plan for all of that. And part of that plan is for us to embrace him as our father and for us to embrace Mary as our mother. The perfect parents for us. So as a psychologist, it's amazing when people can connect with that. Yeah. No, it's so freeing and avoids all sorts of traps and pitfalls.

I'm sure some of the pitfalls I've witnessed people fall into when they kind of start doing this work of healing and is one they [00:23:00] might genuinely struggle to love, like the broken parts of themselves or the parts of themselves that they're not as proud about it and don't know the right way to talk about it.

But there's a part of them that they just kind of despise. They even make hate. And, and they think that maybe the goal is to stuff down, get rid of, like minimize, like move beyond that part. But I hear you saying the opposite. Actually, there's something that needs to happen there. All of these parts of us, which were part of the original plan, by the way, it's not like we've fractured into parts.

Like we added a single homogenous personality and we, you know, we got exposed to original sin or we got expelled to the sins of others, our own processes. We fractured into these pieces that we now have to deal with. This was part of the original plan. Remember we're made in the image and like Of God and God is both a multiplicity and a unity.

He is a multiplicity in that is Father, son and Holy Spirit, the Trinitarian God. But he's also a unity. That multiplicity aspect of God allows him to love himself. And that's unique in the history of understanding God. I mean, that is like. Totally different than [00:24:00] even other monotheistic religions, you know, which would understand God as a single entity, kind of homogenous, uh, without this multiplicity aspect.

And so, and we have a command to love ourselves, right? The second great commandment, love your neighbor as yourself, which means that we are somehow supposed to have a relationship with ourselves. You can't have love of oneself commanded by our Lord himself. And this is in the second great commandment.

This is not some little obscure passage in numbers or, you know, or Leviticus or something. This is like the second upon which, you know, the entirety of the law and the prophets hang. So we need to understand what it means to love ourselves in a really ordered way. And, uh, and this parts and systems thinking really helps us to be able to do that.

But I'm wondering like we, and we talked about this a little bit, I'm wondering if, if I can show you a little bit about what this is, would that be okay? I love that. And I had one question before we move on, but I'm, and I'm totally game to do that. I think one of the, um, confusions you already hit on this a little bit, but I really want to spell it out for our audience, sometimes another pitfall I see.

The young people were leading fall into is that they [00:25:00] might think that this healing stuff or all the brokenness is someone else's job to fix, right? And in a sense, it might be right. It's like we should be bringing that to God or to the right people, maybe to a therapist. But sometimes I see. You know, I've, I've even fallen into this in my past where we kind of peg this onto another person in our life, thinking that they are going to be the savior.

They're going to come through and fix and solve anything. And I see a lot of people falling into that pitfall and I'm getting really hurt through it and ending up like not moving forward in their life. They just stay stuck. So would you speak to that? If anyone's struggling with that at the moment? Sure.

So I like to think about this in terms of a poker analogy. So, you know, in terms of your parents and the environment that you were brought up and so forth, that's like the hand that you were dealt, right? You're not going to be judged on the hand you were dealt. You're going to be judged of the way you played that hand.

And as Kenny Rogers said in the song, the gambler, every hand's a winner and every hand's a loser. Right? You can play it in a way where you were, you know, it works out in God's providential plan or even that [00:26:00] even the most advantageous of circumstances can turn sour. If you know, if we're not seeking to love the Lord, our God, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

So I would say that I would also say that a lot of the efforts in the ways that we get into trouble is when we want to delegate our human formation work to somebody else. You know, when we want to sort of have somebody else take that over, especially as well as as adults and the bishops of the American Catholic church, the USCCB are really clear about this in the program for PC formation, sixth edition.

This is the document that governs seminary, the formation of seminarians. And they say that the seminarian is the primary person responsible for his own formation. And that's actually the case for all of us. That doesn't mean we can do everything by ourselves, but we need to be taking an active participatory role in this.

And so there are things, for example, that we are going to require the help of others and the help of God for, but we have to bring ourselves to that help. So I would definitely say that it's a, it's a both and there rather than a sort of either, [00:27:00] or either I just pull myself up by my bootsteps by myself or somebody else takes care of this for me.

Now, when you're, when you're three months old, obviously you're not going to do it on your own, you know, or if you're, if you're five years old, you know, you're limited in what you can do along those lines, but you reach the age of reason and you can begin making choices about this. So, so good. Let's dive into this exercise.

I'm really excited to go through this with you and to see what comes with it. So this is an experiential exercise. I do a lot of these on my podcast, interior integration for Catholics. So we do a lot of these in the resilient Catholics community. Uh, we, cause, cause we want to again, get to the heart, right?

We don't want to just stay in the head. We want to get to the heart. And so this is for you, you out in the audience. Um, and a couple of cautions about this, uh, first one is. That we really want to do this in a space where you have the time and the conditions to really enter into your own internal experience.

So this isn't something you should do when you're driving or when you're working out, or if you're making dinner, or if you're engaged in some other activity, this is something that's gonna, gonna [00:28:00] require your whole attention. Second thing I would say is let's do this in a way that is helpful to you. All right.

So if I offer you something in this experiential exercise or this meditation, that isn't helpful to you, you can let it go. You can let it go. You don't have to follow it. It's not, this isn't something to be, uh, that's mandated in any way. It is really, really rare, but still there's a possibility that for some people, this could be triggering or it could be a difficult.

So if you find that you are leaving your window of tolerance, kind of going to a fight or flight response, you're dropping into a dorsal vagal shut down freeze response, going to recommend that you stop, you know, you get regrounded. And that you, um, that you understand that again, we want to make sure that this is something that's helpful to you at the right time in the right place.

Right? So, uh, so no need to press on with that. Let's pay attention to what's going on there. We really want to make sure that we maintain that first primary condition of secure attachment, which is a felt sense of safety and protection kind of across different parts. So those are some some ideas along those lines.

It can [00:29:00] be helpful. To, uh, to have some pens and paper pencils and paper in case, you know, there's, you might want to write some things down as you come into contact with, with different experiences inside or different parts inside. And, uh, and yeah, this is really sort of a sample and I'm going to keep it fairly simple, right?

The sort of sample of what some internal family systems of informed approaches or parts and systems. Informed approaches to going inside look like, and so if you find that you're doing some really wonderful work too, and you're watching this as a recording, just go ahead and hit pause. You know, can it continue that beautiful work?

You can resume it when the time seems right. So you have that option as well. Yeah. So do you have any questions, any questions, joy, anything that comes to mind in response to kind of getting ready for something like this? I love the point you made about, like, this is heart work, not just head work. Um, I think that's so, so important because again, like we talked about before, I've even seen this trend in myself where we kind of fall into procrastinal learning or what some people call like mental masturbation, where it's like, we just want to consume our content and [00:30:00] hear about healing and we never actually want to do the work in ourselves.

Um, which is a big trap and we're not going to see, I think, like growth and movement in our life until we do something like this where we're sitting down and actually digging deep. So that's what I'm going to try to do. And I, that's what I encourage everyone to try to do as well. Don't just think about this stuff, but kind of connect your heart to the feeling side of it.

And, um, any guys out there, I think they're too macho for this. Like do it anyway, you're going to benefit from it. Well, and I would, I would again say, if you're seeing some concerns, red flakes coming up, you know, if you're, you know, I would say, don't, don't power through that. Let's listen to that. Cause some, some people need to.

Need to have some accompaniment with this. That's more individual and one on one, you know, they initially need their own person with them, but a lot of people could really benefit from this. So, uh, even in this kind of format, in fact, I do the, I've done hundreds of these kinds of experiential exercises.

So, so something that's kind of uniquely tuned, uh, to the audience here of restored, I've been thinking about this. So, and it's so great to have you Joey and for you to be game about doing this too. And, and so, yeah. Um, we'll go ahead and kind of get started with it. So, [00:31:00] and this will go for somewhere between somewhere around 12, 12 to 14 minutes, you know, just so in case people are wondering like how much time, so yeah, about 12 to 14 minutes.

So, um, so I'm just going to invite you. To notice and what's just happening in inside right now, and just kind of, we're not trying to change anything. We're not trying to make anything happen. We're just trying to be aware of what our internal experience is in this moment. And if it's helpful to you to shut your eyes, that's great.

If you want to keep them open, that's fine. So much freedom with this.

But to just notice what's happening inside and to acknowledge the reality of whatever's happening inside. That doesn't mean we endorse every thought or we [00:32:00] give approval to every impulse or, but we just note that it's there. It doesn't mean we have to engage with it or go with it, but just to notice what's already there and to see if we can have a big open heart toward ourselves.

If we can

have an appreciation that even in our wounds, we are still fearfully and wonderfully made.

And would it be okay to just kind of accept that? Or is there something getting in the way?

Every part of us

is fearfully and wonderfully made too. [00:33:00] And that parts are different than the burdens they carry. Shame, rage, fear. Those are all burdens. Those are all experiences. Those are not the parts themselves. They're the burdens that parts can carry. And parts are not their roles. Controlling, criticizing, hiding, those are all roles that parts can play, but they're not the parts themselves.

And so, would it be possible for us to look at [00:34:00] ourselves the way God looks at us, a little bit more like God looks at us, fearfully and wonderfully made, and he saw that it was very good.

And can we notice what gets in the way of that? Cause something might be getting in the way of that right now for you, what might be the objections, the concerns, the arguments that come up inside.

Those are parts of us too.

And can we have an [00:35:00] open heart toward those parts of us that might hate other parts of us, parts of us that might hate our weakness or might hate our shame or might hate our scrupulosity or might hate our, whatever it is inside. are fear.

There are reasons for all these experiences. There are reasons for all these beliefs, assumptions, impulses, desires. Parts, each in their own way, are seeking a good for us. St. Thomas Aquinas says that we always seek a perceived good. These parts are seeking goods for us. But often in ways that are really maladaptive, problematic, sometimes morally wrong.[00:36:00]

Can we appreciate that different parts of us are trying to help us?

Can we be open to that idea? Can

we be open to this idea that we have an innermost self,

deep within us, that

has the qualities it needs to lead and guide our systems? To lead and guide our parts, to be a conduit of graces, to help us connect[00:37:00]

an innermost self that's a bridge to connecting with God in a healthy and good way.

And you might be able to sense these parts. Some people can see their parts. They have a visual representation. Others can hear their parts. Others can see the images that parts are offering, memories. Some parts [00:38:00] communicate through body sensations.

My parts will often play songs, like an internal jukebox, that communicate something they want me to know.

There's a lot of different ways that parts can communicate.

And this may sound really hard to believe, for some parts, [00:39:00] okay? But it is possible for parts to come into much greater harmony.

To be able to come together,

to collaborate, to cooperate

under the right conditions, conditions where there's a sense of leadership and a sense of being loved and cared for. A lot of these parts may be really young,

looking for guidance within. Sometimes parts will Take on the role of leading and guiding your system, but they're not really suited to that takes them out of their naturally adaptive roles.[00:40:00]

It's just going to invite you to notice what parts might be up for you

and what might your parts want you, you as your innermost self to know about their experience. What might they want you to know? We're going to ask parts not to overwhelm you, not to [00:41:00] take you over and not to flood you with the intensity of their experience, but to look at you, you as your innermost self, and to see if there's a space here for you as your innermost self to come to see, hear, know, and understand your parts more deeply and what their experiences were and how they understood their experiences.

What it was like for them,

because often, especially in really difficult circumstances, one part stood in the breach and took it [00:42:00] when times were really hard, when things were overwhelming,

and those parts were heroes. Because it kept that overwhelming experience from flooding into everything and taking us totally out of the capacity to live daily life.

And yet, sometimes those parts get condemned because of the burdens that they care, because of the burdens that they carry because of that.

Can we have a big open heart to those parts that stepped it up and took the heat when things were hard? Not that we're going to unpack all of that. That's not what this is about right now, but to just have an [00:43:00] appreciation for,

for how they've walled off. What is too much for the rest of us to handle, at least at that time.

And if you can't get into that and no, that's okay. Maybe parts are just not at the point where they feel safe enough to be able to engage in that kind of work. We want to be careful about not unpacking too much at once. We want to make sure that we're working in a way that feels safe to those parts of us that protect us and kind of handle our day to day operations.

Really a lot of respect for the ways that things currently work in your system, [00:44:00] but some openness here to some ideas about how things could get better.

And with that, a lot of appreciation for your parts, the ways that they're trying to help you, a lot of appreciation for the good intentions they have for you. Even if they use means that are really problematic in a variety of ways, they, they create impulses

that might be really problematic. There's still a good intention there for the ways that they try to get deep needs met

and an appreciation for any collaboration, cooperation that parts we're able to, to offer in this. [00:45:00] And this work,

a lot of times it's surprising for parts to experience gratitude.

And with that, we'll draw this experiential exercise to a close. If it's helpful to take some time and write a few things down to give parts of voice in writing, and that can be really, really helpful, makes things seem like really real to some parts, or even to draw it out. If they gave you an image to kind of keep that in a parts journal or a parts map.

Yeah. Just want to. Be able to like offer that. So, so yeah, that brings this, this, this to a close and, and uh, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm curious, obviously, Joey, if, you know, whatever you might want to share from that, you know, kind of as a part of a [00:46:00] debrief here. So, yeah, no, it's so much, so much there. I Yeah, I don't know how much I should share because I wrote down a lot.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot this there's not one right way to do this Just like whatever moves you some people won't write at all Others that might write up write a ton because there's so much to like connect with and and so it's all good Yeah, so I'll try to give you a summary without going maybe too into the weeds And if there's anything else anything you want me to explore I'm happy to do that So I have four post it notes filled with different Notes based on the prompts that you gave the, the first thing I kind of struggle with, and maybe this is unique to the format we're doing.

It was like taking off the host hat and then just like kind of tune in. Cause like when you were saying to kind of just notice the sensations in your body, I'm like, I'm kind of in like game on mode, like we're doing an interview here, you know? So I had to kind of step back from that for a second, but.

Once I did, one of those kind of sensations I've been feeling a lot lately is just being very spread thin, just like overcommitted, like lots going on, both in [00:47:00] this, you know, postulate that I'm running and then other areas of my life too. And so that's one of the things. And lately it kind of hit me too. I remember the kind of experience I had the other night where I think sometimes like our busyness can be somewhat of a mask that we had behind and especially had our maybe loneliness behind.

And so I noticed that in me too. Yeah, there's so much more, um, trying to think, there were kind of two, I read this book recently by Mike Foster, if you're familiar with him, but he wrote it, it's called Primal Question and he kind of tied together some of this, um, attachment theory and a little bit of internal family systems and just recognize that for a lot of people, there's like a kind of driving question that they carry with them through life and, uh, for me, I've always struggled to know, and I won't go through all seven, we're going to have Mike on the show in the future, but one of the things that I recognize in me is like just this Part of me just like has such a need and a desire to feel safe.

And that's like, that seems to govern so much of what I do. And then another part of me just has this desire to just feel wanted. And that like has governed a lot of what, [00:48:00] um, I do. And so both of those have been like big blessings and helpful in life. And they've also caused a lot of problems. So those are some of the parts or some of the pieces of this for me, I think, uh, there was a question, which maybe people listening, um, Had this too as like, am I doing this right?

Like I didn't really know, especially since it's the first time I'm doing something like this, I was kind of doubtful. Like, am I doing this right? Am I, you know, I don't know if I'm experiencing it in the way that I should, but that's a part, you know, many of us have a part that is like kind of looking at performance, you know, wanting to do it right.

Wanting to make sure that, you know, and usually that's a part and it's, it's okay. You know, like I'm fond of, of saying that, you know, we're gonna find something out no matter what happens. And, um, so yeah, I'm, I'm not particularly, uh, I don't have a particular script or pattern for something that's, you know, kind of good.

Or not. I mean, there's certain things we don't want to be overwhelmed. We talked about that. Um, but as long as we are making an inquiry, like we're [00:49:00] genuinely interested, we want to connect with our parts. It's one of those things where our Lord tells us seeking, you shall find the real reason why a lot of people do not know themselves is because they don't want to look, they don't want to engage.

They're too afraid of what's in the unconscious. And it makes sense because what's in the unconscious was at the time it happened. Too overwhelming to be tolerated in our, in our awareness. No, but it's not, you know, 1985 all over again, or 1973 or 1992 or 2014, you know, like we're in a different place now.

And so, but parts are caught back in time. Parts are often like stuck at the moment that the difficulties happened, you know, that whatever, you know, so we want to, and that's something that we recognize in, in, in trauma, right? That's why people have flashbacks, for example, when they have, you know, PTSD that's diagnosable or, you know, things like that.

They don't know, they don't, they don't know there's a difference between the past, the present and the future. It all just seems like one great big now. And that's what happens [00:50:00] when a part takes over that blends, which is caught in back in some kind of traumatic event. That makes so much sense. Another thing that came to mind when we were going through the exercise was just like how strong an aversion I have to people who are controlling it's like, and I know, I think everyone feels this at some level, but I know for me in particular, like my goodness, like when I get any sort of a whiff of people trying to like control me, I'm like, I'm either out of here or I'm going to be very like tactful and making sure that you do not control me.

So, um, Yeah. And that's definitely, you know, there's been some good parts or good outcomes that have come from that. Absolutely. Yes. It's protected me. It's definitely, you know, been good. And, uh, my career and, you know, different relationships, maybe that, or the person wasn't respectful of boundaries and things like that.

But then another area is like my marriage. It's been a big, uh, Bad thing because sometimes I think I over interpret and someone's kind of trying to help or speaking, maybe truth, um, or their, you know, their perspective that I think like, Oh, you're just trying to control [00:51:00] me. So a little, maybe overactive at times there.

So that was kind of the first post it notes. I don't know. How did you, well, you know, so here's, here's what I would say. First of all, we have these six attachment needs that I talk about, and then the six integrity needs, it's not just about attachment. It's also about maintaining our integrity. And one of those integrity needs is the need for autonomy, right?

So these are all needs that parts are going to be really focused on, um, and different parts are going to be focusing on different needs. And they have very limited vision when they're not in right relationship with your innermost self. They have a very limited vision. So, you know, I can imagine like I use this example, like a ship is sinking, right.

And you've got two people in a lifeboat, two guys in a lifeboat, and those are like the parts. Right. And one guy is busy trying to load in all the water and the supplies and the food into the lifeboat. And the other guy is busy dumping the water and the supplies overboard. And why? Because they had two different experiences in a lifeboat before the first guy suffered hunger and thirst and starvation in a [00:52:00] lifeboat because they didn't have enough supplies and the second guy experienced a lifeboat capsizing because there was too much water and supplies in the boat, right?

So they're both trying to help. They both have the same goal, right? But they have very different experiences, very different ways to make sense of their experiences, and they're working across purposes to each other. Okay. No, it's so fascinating. I, um, and it makes so much sense and I could see how the context is so important.

Like you're saying, right. And our past experiences, one of the things that hit me hard was, um, when you talked about kind of parts of ourselves that we might hate, um, it took me a second and it took me a little bit on that one to kind of identify it. But I think like even parts that I like kind of value, I maybe have like somewhat of a, you know, I don't know if that's the right word.

Um, I look down upon, um, demise in some way, maybe. So, like in my past, when I was struggling with, you know, sexual compulsions like pornography and things like that, I certainly looked down on my lust, but I also kind of, in turn, looked down on sexuality as a whole. Like any part of like [00:53:00] me that was sexual.

And I think that that has impacted me to this day. I could certainly see like a trend of, you know, yeah, I have to unpack that maybe a little bit more, but you know, I think that, uh, past mistakes in that realm have maybe somewhat twisted and kept me from like the goodness that is meant to be experienced there within marriage.

So that's another thing. And then the two other parts that I identified, um, even that desire to feel wanted, like I mentioned. Part of me is like, looks down on that because it's a form of weakness in a way. It kind of, it's, there's a lot of vulnerability there. And then the other thing too, is that kind of strong need that I have to feel safe, um, has cost me in some ways of, you know, whether I was too nervous to try something or not confident enough.

And it was. You know, doing its job in some sense, but maybe it was just a little dialed up too much to where it prevented me actually from having really good things. I know, especially a lot of people from, you know, divorced and broken families. We deal with, you know, just a lot of struggles in relationships.

[00:54:00] And I remember hearing stories of people who they would just like break off engagements or wouldn't even start dating to begin with because they had like this such strong fear of repeating the pattern that they saw in their parents marriage. And I certainly saw that in my own life. And so I trust that God's brought me where he needs me to be, but it's sad to look back on some, you know, really good and beautiful.

didn't go anywhere because of some of these, you know, some of this brokenness that I was dealing with. So that's just the parts that I think I struggle with maybe loving. Well, would you be interested in, I'm just gonna invite you to take a little minute here and go back inside and just see if it would be okay.

To kind of connect with both the part of you that wants to be wanted wants to be in relationship seeks that and the part of you that really wants you to be safe like if those two parts might be interested in getting to know each other a little better or if that seems like that's not something that that seems you know.

Like a good time to do or a good format to do, because yes, I mean, there is an awareness. This is a podcast episode and so forth. [00:55:00] So, but I'm just curious if you're noticing kind of an openness in your system across parts to that, or if any parts objecting, if any parts objects to that, we don't do it.

Because there's a reason for the objection and we would want to make sure that all parts would be on board so that we don't steamroll apart or we don't, um, just, just sort of bulldoze apart because it's standing in the way of some sort of, you know, agenda that other parts have. If this is good, if anything is good for one part of you, it's actually going to be good for all parts of you.

It's not going to leave one part to twist in the wind. There's a harmony about what's best for a person system. Oh, that's good. I would say, I guess what I'm sensing, what I'm experiencing is it's not so much the venue. Like I'm, I'm open with our audience here and I'm happy. I hope they can learn something from me.

I think it's more like those two parts seem diametrically opposed. Right. They seem like foes. Like they seem like they. Oh yeah, absolutely. Aren't supposed to be talking to each other. Um, so, so I don't know if there's so [00:56:00] much an objection, but I guess, I guess that's a form of an objection where it feels like those two things.

Go together. They are kind of working on different things. So I love that. That's a great challenge. That's why I picked them. Right. Yeah. But, but the first and first of all, this is only an idea. We don't do it. So this is really an important thing where we kind of negotiate these things. Right. We want to kind of explore.

And I, I want to make sure that in doing this, I'm really free of like an agenda on my end. So I'm totally good with not doing this or doing it or whatever. We can do something different. Um, we don't have to do anything at all. The demo, but, but this is where like an amazing thing can happen. If parts begin to see each other as they actually are not as just the enemy, because that's a very, that's a very narrow, you know, kind of very limited, very inaccurate perception of another part.

No, I want to go deeper here. So, and one thing to clarify there, it was just kind of. Communicate when I was experiencing, I was in no way a critique of you. And no, no, no, no, no, I didn't experience it that [00:57:00] well. And if parts are critical of me, I'm all about that. That's an amazing thing. Let's let's, you know, totally good with that because, you know, uh, cause a lot of this is kind of like parts might not even understand, like if, um, you know, like when little kids go to, um, they've got a medical problem, they'd have to have some sort of procedure done, you know, they have to have a piece of glass removed from their, their arm.

Cause they fell, you know, and whatever road riding their bike. They're not going to understand if they're little, that the physician is helping them, you know, like we have to appreciate that they may totally misinterpret what's going on here. And they can be like, mommy, it's hurting, you know, and, and, and not appreciate it in the moment.

And like I said, these parts are phenomenologically really little. So, so it might mean that there's gotta be a little more trust there, but I'm also, you know, let those parts know that I'm also here. You know, with my innermost self and my parts, you know, which are, which resonate with your parts. Like I have parts that are all about autonomy and I have other parts that are all about connection and I have other parts that are all about safety, you [00:58:00] know, and so gets get that these parts of me resonate with you.

It's not just my innermost self, but it's also my parts that are in right relationship with my innermost self. That makes so much sense. Yeah. And that's, that's more complete. That's more about loving wholeheartedly. The kind of next thought or place that I. Kind of being led is just a question, actually, which I somewhat thinking questions.

You asked that question about kind of what comes to mind. I think memories for me, um, sometimes like body sensations or emotions, uh, realizations for some reason, like things that kind of snap and click together. That's kind of different things that I was experiencing there. But, um, one of them, the question that came to mind was like, what if the safety and the part that like just wants to be wanted, like are in a post.

What if they're actually, what if they're not, what if they're actually working towards a similar goal of helping me like thrive and live like a really healthy, meaningful life. And yeah, that's something like I feel strongly pulled towards considering. Yeah. Just like the two guys in the lifeboat, right?

Both wanting [00:59:00] to help, right? But they have very different ways of going about that. So, yeah, I already sensed that in you. I already sensed that these two parts actually could be at some point, great friends. You know, like that's totally makes sense to me. We're not, I'm not going to try to impose that or anything.

I mean, we have to let things develop, but, but yeah, but for this, that's, that's more than we're seeking. What we're seeking potentially in this is just that they come to look at each other and in a different way, maybe, you know, that this polarization, this conflict between the two of them might be able to soften for a little bit.

And they might be able to understand each other a little better in the presence of you as Joey, you as your innermost self. And does that seem interesting and desirable to parts or are there objections or concerns that we would need to address before that would feel safe enough, especially for the part of you that, you know, has concerned about concerns about safety and protection?

Yeah, I, I know to some people, this might sound strange, but I almost [01:00:00] feel like this bodily sensation of like harmony. I don't know how to explain that better than that, but almost like whether it felt like there was maybe like tension, even on like a physical level, there now seems to be a bit of like relaxation and peace.

Cause it's like, wow, what if those two things are again, not mutually, uh, opposed exclusive, but actually working towards like a similar end. So it's almost like I can, okay. There's not as much of a need to like control or stress or, you know, fight. Yeah, beautiful. And so for those of you in the audience kind of observing this, just going to invite you, if you'd like to, if it feels safe, it feels good in your own systems to, to kind of come along with us on this.

You know, and to notice what may be resonating within your own system. You might notice that there's a part of you that really craves, really craves this, the sense of, of being wanted, of being needed, of being desirable, of being, you know, uh, connected. And another part of you that really has concerns about safety and protection and are really, it's really focused on that [01:01:00] because this is kind of like tuning forks.

And if you take a tuning fork, that's tuned to like a particular note, like C and you ring it, you, you, you strike it and you hold it up to another tuning fork. That's also tuned to see the other tuning folk will begin to vibrate. And this is how I know. A lot about this is how I think about loving other people is I'm looking at which of my, which of my parts are resonating, you know, and I've got parts that are very much resonating with both of these parts and have a sense.

Yeah, that this is something that could be, um, but there could be a lot more understanding, you know, kind of connection. So I'm resonating with your experience of, you know, hopefulness of possibility that things might actually be different internally between these two parts of you. And my mind even goes to like externally to like, you know, relationships, interactions with other people like my wife or yeah, just even tendencies I have or things like that.

Cause I think this, yeah, I think this, um, I can feel this and like my sense is that this goes beyond just like this kind of cool mental emotional exercise, [01:02:00] but it actually can result in, and that's not a critique of anything we're doing. I think it's great, but it can result in, you know, some real transformation.

Not just something that I know some people might be turned off the idea of just like kind of thinking and processing or whatever, but like, no, it can have actually have some measurable like outcomes, quote unquote, measurable outcomes like you can see change in your life. Yeah, absolutely. Because these two parts will also polarize with parts in your wife.

Hmm. You know, the part of you that really seeks safety and protection might polarize with the part of your wife that really wants to be wanted, you know, and so the same kinds of parts that these parts will polarize inside, they're going to polarize when they find those parts in other people. And so that's where a lot of the conflict comes from is between parts of me.

And parts of the other person, you know, and if we can be more wholehearted in relationship under the leadership and guidance of our innermost self, we get a harmony collaboration among parts. I mean, it leads us to be able to love and to be loved so much easier in relationship and marriages, especially.

So yeah, [01:03:00] this isn't just about some sort of navel gazing, you know, self absorbed, you know, kind of effort to self love. Ultimately, this is also about us loving God and being loved by God and loving our neighbor and being able to receive love from whoever God sends our way to, to love us. That's good. I, um, there's so much more I could say, so feel free to stop me at any point.

But one of the memories that came back was, um, with our first pregnancy, we had a miscarriage. I know not everyone can relate to this example, so bear with me here. But, um, I remember like having such a strong emotional reaction to that, um, cause we, we didn't know for sure, but we think we were having a boy.

And there was something inside me that like, even to this day, like during the exercise, I got pretty emotional. over it. And, um, yeah, just like, because safety is so prime, not just in my own life, but I like to provide that for other people too, um, both on a physical level, like with, you know, self defense and different things like that, but also on an emotional level.

And, um, I almost felt like I just like failed to protect my [01:04:00] son. When the miscarriage occurred, like I thinking, you know, going through the typical kind of grief stages of like thinking, man, like there's something I should have done differently that would have prevented his life from ending. And, um, that was like really intense for me.

I remember, um, you know, driving the car after it was like the day we found out I was going to pick up some food. Um, and just like really, really. Um, struggling, like really even like crying and just feeling like I just, I didn't provide that safety and I failed, I failed in a very real way. So I've seen that kind of muscle come out in different ways as well and, and even connected to my parents divorce, but that was a particular, particularly like strong situation where that came up.

Does that make sense to you? You as your innermost self, Joey, that that part has such a deep desire to protect not only yourself, but others. Does that make sense to you? It does, and I think the way I can verbalize it is that when, it does go back to when my parents split. And I remember, you know, we were all in the bedroom, my dad was out of the [01:05:00] house.

My mom sat me and my siblings down and explained what was going on and that dad would no longer be living with us. In fact, they were getting divorced. And especially because I looked up to my dad so much and found a great deal of safety in his presence. I, that immediately was like, my goodness, like that's crazy.

Gone. And then I also felt a lot of anger towards my mom, um, even though she, you know, to this day, looking back at that situation, like I knew she was doing the right thing in that particular context. Well, let that part know that wants safety for yourself and for others. Let that part know that you get it.

Just see if you can notice that part, sense that part, see that part, and let that part know, yes, I get it. I get that you want me to be safe. I get that you want others to be safe, and that's a good and wholesome desire. Let that part know that it's really important, and that you as Joey, you as your innermost self, get it.

Let's see how that lands. Yeah, I don't feel any resistance to that. I think I've [01:06:00] always seen it as like a strength of mine. Great. At least to keep other people safe. I think when it's gotten in the way of me, you know, doing things that I should be doing because I just want to feel safe. I think that's where there's more tension.

Um, but no, that's helpful. And, um, yeah, to close the loop on that story that I was just thinking that, um, no, I remember like just, Not really knowing what to do with all of the news that my mom had shared and just the reality of like my family falling apart and just hiding in the closet and crying. And I couldn't have put it into words then, but a lot of these things that we're talking about came to kind of the surface.

I felt abandoned. I felt unwanted. I felt like I wasn't, you know, enough. I wasn't good enough. No, it didn't feel safe, obviously. So I could certainly see like a clear trend line from that experience to these different experiences, whether it's the miscarriage that we experienced or different struggles and by relationships, um, as well.

So it, it makes sense. Like, it's very understandable. Yeah, totally makes sense to me too. And, and I think we can say that that, that was unbelievably hard for parts. I think we can just speak that to say that was [01:07:00] the word that comes to mind for me is impossibly hard for parts and more than parts at that age could, could be expected to manage.

And I think that's where, um, the instinct in me to protect others comes from, in part. Like, I think before that, I'd always still had that instinct to protect others, but after that, the kind of driving force, even behind what I do with this apostolate, is like, I never want anyone to experience what I went through.

And if they have to, for some reason, I don't want them to go through it alone because I felt like I was going through it alone. There was just no one there to kind of walk with me through it. And so I think that's like one of the driving forces behind those parts. Yeah. To make sure it never happens again.

Yeah. So that part, you know, I I'm sensing I could be wrong about this. You can tell me, but that part maybe has some appreciation for what it's like to not feel wanted or to not feel enough. You know, like there's an appreciation there, you know, it may not be in the same way that the other part that bears that burden, you know, [01:08:00] experiences it, but it's like also trying to help that other part or parts of other people to never be in that position.

Of feeling unwanted, of feeling not enough. Yeah, there's like some value to it, some good that's come from it. I could totally see that. Two final things that, um, I know we're running out of time here, but one, um, when you mentioned like how different parts of you can kind of take the brunt of trauma or take the brunt of challenges that have come into your life, I think, you know, around that time when I was, you know, about 11 years old and I, I think, I don't know if there's like a sexual part of all of us or if that would be a technical like term, but, um, I know for me, it seems like that kind of sexual part of me as a human person ended up taking a lot of the burden of trying to help me feel safe, trying to help me feel wanted.

And, you know, for me, it came out and, you know, You know, pornography and other sexual sins. And, um, just kind of recognize that when you were going through the exercise, that, wow, that part of me has like carried so much, especially at that period of my life, you know, a lot of, a lot of [01:09:00] pornography use for men is really about parts that are in a really maladaptive way, trying to feel seen, heard, known, and understood, trying to feel safe, trying to feel protected, trying to feel delighted in valued, you know, and so forth.

And, and so there's a counterfeit of that. In in porn use for a lot of in the experience of a lot of parts of us, you know, which is one of those reasons why I can kind of come back, even though it's a dead end, even though it's there's an emptiness there, it doesn't actually fulfill the need. Our hearts are still restless.

It can still feel like that might be possible. And so. You know, one of the real, yeah, I think benefits of parts and systems thinking is to help us with sexual compulsions because yeah, parts will often sexualize things, especially if, you know, trauma isn't resolved before we hit puberty because now we've got a whole bodily element to this, a whole endocrine system element to this that can complicate stuff.

And it's true for women as well as men. It's not just men, you know, this becomes very, very embodied in [01:10:00] various ways. And so, so yeah, I mean, that makes. Perfect sense to me. Thank you. And, uh, the final thing I was just going to say to close this out, I, yeah, I definitely have an appreciation for the parts of me that have kept me safe and have kind of helped me to find love and feel wanted and connection, all that.

Um, but yeah, just that, that need to feel safe, I think is something I'll continue to kind of, um, Kind of look at and walk with because I know sometimes, uh, for me, even the sounds so silly, but I, uh, I'm very like careful about my family's safety. So there's like cameras like outside the house and the doors are locked and there's like ways, uh, I won't go too into those ways that I would have ready to protect them.

And, um, we, yeah, it just, Just very careful about like my, my daughter and my wife and my son and myself and we, so in our bedroom, um, we would typically keep the door shut. Right. And, um, lately it would just get a little too stuffy in there. And, you know, we're recording this in the summer, it's humid in here where I'm at and we would keep the [01:11:00] door open.

And like, I kid you not Dr. Peter, sometimes I just like, can't go to sleep. I'm like, just like looking at the door, like waiting for someone to like, come through it. I, uh, so I kind of recognize that part of me that's just like, you know, wants to keep me safe. And then the only other thing I was just going to say along with that was I, um, just got over a sickness recently and my wife was certainly super gracious with like helping me and taking care of the kids and everything.

She was great. But, uh, I caught myself saying something towards the tail end of like, I didn't mean this like rudely, but I kind of just said it in like as a knee jerk reaction. Um, I was like, I could take care of myself. I could take care of myself. I just kind of felt that like, no, no, I can take care of myself.

And um, I think that fierce independence is something that this audience especially, uh, can relate to about, you know, so often we feel like we're on our own when mom and dad are maybe warring with each other or kind of starting restarting their lives going this way, that way. Um, we're kind of left to deal with our own brokenness.

And so we just kind of learned to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps and just kind of keep [01:12:00] going. And, um, certainly have seen that. Uh, hurt my relationships in some ways. So that's, uh, that's how the exercise went for me. So sorry if that was oversharing in any way, but I wanted to be a guinea pig for, that's what I always try to do for this audience.

And so I, uh, I really appreciate you walking through that and open any final things you want to talk about as well. Well, you know, I'm so excited to have been able to connect. Uh, I have a special spot in my heart for family life and, you know, Deep appreciation for even in, in families where, you know, there's not, not divorce because divorce is kind of a low bar, you know, like, yes, we want to not be divorced, you know, but it's not everything, right?

Like people can be struggling, you know, in families where marriages are stressed for decades. And so none of us are going to escape family life. You know, with no trauma, with no injuries, no relational wounds, no attachment injuries, we're all going to experience the slings and arrows of living in our fallen human condition in a fallen world.

So, um, so yeah, just to appreciate that, if these kinds of experiential [01:13:00] exercises resonate with you, you know, like the, and if this kind of like demo, um, resonated with you, you know, this is what we do over at souls and hearts, uh, this is what. The kind of thing that we do on interior integration for Catholics.

Um, so you can check that out on YouTube, um, or on our, uh, wherever you listen to podcasts, interior integration for Catholics. And then we also have like communities where we have people that are working on their own human formation from a parts and systems perspective. Grounded in an authentic Catholic understanding of the human person.

And that's the resilient Catholics community. And then we also have the formation for formators community. Cause I have a special spot in my heart for the human formation of formators. These are therapists and coaches and spiritual directors and priests and seminary formators, and those that have, you know, a responsibility for the formation of others, because I think one of the big things that gets in the way of that.

effective formation of others is a lack of formation in the formator himself or herself. So, cause you can't give what you don't have. So those are a couple of the communities that we have going on at, at souls and [01:14:00] hearts. So yeah, if this is new to you, if you want to find out more about internal family systems, check out episode 71 of interior integration for Catholics, where I lay it out and I talk about 10 of my own parts, um, in, in some detail.

Um, so, so yeah, and there's a lot of the resources. at our website, soulsandhearts. com. So soulsandhearts. com. And I definitely recommend you guys check it out. And so we're impressed with the work you guys are doing. And so I know it will be really helpful for you and you guys, this journey of healing and just growing into a better, stronger person, more virtuous person.

Um, Dr. Peter, before we close down, there's one question I had that I think might be helpful for everyone. Um, do. Each of these parts have like names and is there like a definition of parts? I know we talked a little bit about that, but when I was going through the exercise, that question came up. So I wanted to ask you if there's specific names and if there's like some sort of a definition of a part itself.

Sure. So a definition of a part is like a constellation of emotions. Desires, impulses, attitudes, beliefs, memories, experiences, and making [01:15:00] sense of experiences. So it's not just like a passing mood state. It's like, it's like a, it's own little personality within you. Okay. It's like its own, its own. And it also.

Endures over time. It's just, they don't like appear and disappear. They can come into consciousness and then leave consciousness and it can feel like they appear and disappear, but that's not what actually is going on. They endure over time. And so, so that's, that's how I think about parts, right? This multiplicity within.

And as far as names go, um, sometimes parts will have ways that they identify themselves. Um, sometimes there'll be labeled by other parts, you know, as the bad part or the, the porn using part, you know, which is kind of pejorative. And so, uh, I work when I work with parts, either my own parts or when I'm working with others with their parts, I mean, the naming thing is something we kind of negotiate with the part, you know?

And if the, if the part wants to call herself, uh, you know, a good for nothing low life, it'd be like, well, maybe we can reframe that a little bit, you know, but I'm hesitant to impose a name on a part. You know, without like, kind [01:16:00] of, kind of talking with the part about that, if they're open to it, really helpful.

Thank you for going through that. And I want to give you the final word first off, again, thank you so much for being here for the great work that you're doing. Um, uh, yeah, just really blessed to call you friend now. And I'm looking, I look forward to hopefully future collaborations as well. Um, but yeah, what, what final encouragement or advice would you give to everyone listening, especially someone listening who does feel Kind of stuck and broken in life because of the, the trauma and the dysfunction they experienced at home.

So I'm a big believer. My favorite scripture versus Romans 8 28, you know, all things work together for good for those who love the Lord, who are called according to his decree. And to just trust that. Actually, each of us are beloved little sons and daughters of God. That's our identity. That's our fundamental identity.

And nothing in the fall, nothing in the sins of others, original sin, our own sins, takes that away. The only way that it can be taken away is if we repudiate it, you know, if we walk away from it. And so, so your primary parents. God, the father, Mary, our mother, I really believe that. And then [01:17:00] the differences between the people that I've accompanied who really take off and flourish and those that don't is this question of, can we embrace the love of God?

And can we embrace our identity as being little beloved sons and daughters? And our Lord tells us, you know, in scripture, I loved you first. We don't have to earn it. We don't have to make ourselves worthy of it. You know, can we come as we are? Can we come and receive as a unmerited gift, the love and grace and light and warmth and kindness of God.

Next time Dr. Peter comes on, I love to ask him to break down the Pixar movie inside out. We love that movie and my family, but in the meantime, make sure to check out his website and his podcast will link to the resources he mentioned to in the show notes. I'm very impressed with him and his content. And so I definitely recommend you guys check it out.

That wraps up this episode. If you found this podcast valuable, I invite you to subscribe. So you can not only be notified when new episodes go live, but you can help us actually reach more people. The more subscribers we have, the more the podcast apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for the kind of help that we offer.

[01:18:00] Again, we love serving you. And if you found it helpful and you'd maybe like to thank us subscribing or following on whatever app you use is really an easy way to do so. And only takes a few seconds. In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#129: What Does It Mean to Be Healthy & Whole? | Matthew Rudolph

We talk a lot about being healthy and whole, but what exactly does it mean to be healthy and whole?

We dive into that topic in this episode with a man who’s been accomplished as a CEO but has also worked hard on himself as a husband and father, plus:

• Why honesty and vulnerability are essential for healing and growth, and how forgiveness has been very healing for him

• The 4 stages of growth required to love well

• A resource for leaders, pastors, and seminarians

Visit ChrismPriest.com

Email Matt: matt@chrismpriest.com

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Visit BlackStoneFilms.co

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: [00:00:00] We talk a lot about being healthy and whole, but what exactly does it mean to be healthy and whole? It's important we get this right because if we don't, we might end up aiming for a target that isn't even possible to hit. And so in this episode, we dive into that topic with a man who's been an accomplished CEO, but who's also worked hard on himself as a husband and a father.

We discuss things like what honesty and vulnerability are essential for healing and growth. My guest shares how forgiveness has been one of the most healing things for him. We discuss. How to best measure how healthy you are, not just physically healthy, but your health overall as a person. We get into big topics like what's the point of life, and we talk about the four stages of growth that are required to love well.

And finally, my guest offers a resource for leaders, pastors, priests, and seminarians. Stay with us. [00:01:00] Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family, so you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 129.

We're so happy that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard a ton of great feedback. One listener said this, I have found your podcast episodes very healing, and I've passed on to friends and even seminarians and newly ordained priests. God continues to heal me of my broken childhood, and your podcast has been a big and safe place to go to receive it.

Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. In a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of millennials said that video is their top content choice. And that's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that?

Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know, you need to create video content, but you don't know where to start. And it can honestly leave you feeling kind of overwhelmed to the point where [00:02:00] you just give up. On it altogether. And you just go back to what you know, to what's comfortable, even if that's not what's best for your business or your ministry, that's where Blackstone films can help you.

They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel they can create things like trailers, promo videos, and commercials, social media videos. Documentaries, um, fundraising videos and courses. We actually filmed two video courses with them, which we're still giving away for free.

Um, and we had an excellent experience with them and their team, and you can see the value, you can see the quality for yourself on our website if you'd like. And so whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about. Helping you not just create video content, but create a clear win for your business or your ministry, such as fundraising for your ministry, selling a course, getting leads for your business, getting students to sign up for your school, promoting your event, and so much more.

Blackstone has reached millions of people around the globe with their videos, and they can help you too. And so if you want to view past projects, view the services that they offer, or maybe even schedule a free console, initial consult with them, just go to blackstonefilms. [00:03:00] co. Nat. com, Blackstonefilms. co, or just click on the link in the show notes.

My guest today is Matthew Rudolph. Matt is a husband and father of four children in 2015. He joined the founders of Amazing Parish, Pat Lencioni, a famous business author, consultant, and John Martin, and spent the next eight years leading coaching and content efforts for nearly a thousand priests and bishops.

across the country. He most recently served as the executive director of Amazing Parish and recently stepped down for helping priests integrate human formation, leadership, and healing. In co founding Chrism, which he'll tell you more about in the show, he hopes to equip even more clergy with practical skills and confidence so they can become the leaders and spiritual fathers that they are called to be.

One disclaimer, we do talk about God and faith in this episode. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, you're totally welcome here. I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is just listen with an open mind.

Even if you skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this [00:04:00] episode. And with that, here's our chat. Matt, welcome to the show. So good to have you, man.

Matt: Thanks, Joey. Great to be here.

Joey: I'm excited to talk about this topic because as we both know, we live in a very broken world. We live in a world that One way to put it would be this.

It's very unhealthy. There's a lot of like unhealthiness in our world on so many levels. And like me, you've had your own journey with brokenness and just kind of going through seasons of unhealthiness. Are there any particular moments in your life where you felt maybe the most broken or the most unhealthy?

Matt: Joey, that is a loaded question because the more that I learn about myself, the more I'm like, oh man, I have so much more work to do. But, uh, the two moments that really come to mind are really my first year of marriage. You know, I had studied theology and philosophy and scripture and I knew a lot of things about, Marriage and, and the beauty of marriage and how to live it out.

I knew it in my head and I even think I knew it in my heart, but I didn't actually practically [00:05:00] know how to do it and how to give a gift of myself. I didn't perhaps have enough self possession and self awareness to be able to do that well. And so my first year of marriage, I was in marriage counseling. I was counseling and counseling for myself and, and I needed help.

I really needed help. And so my wife helped me realize my own brokenness. She didn't do anything wrong. It just in being married, I realized that I didn't have things together in the ways that I thought that I did. And so, yeah, if anyone's listening and they're a year into marriage and like, man, did I fail?

You did not fail. We just need help. And I needed help my first year of marriage. And the second time was, was really, and this is hard to admit and hard to say, but I was probably five years into being a father before I, before I was honest with myself. And could admit that I really didn't enjoy being a father and it was a lot of my own brokenness and my lack of health and my lack of selflessness [00:06:00] and I wasn't able to give to my children in the ways that I wanted to, and it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks, like the father that I wanted to be and dreamt about being in the, you know, the, the wounds that I wanted to heal, like generationally and like how I could give to my kids, I wasn't that father, that wasn't who I was.

Thanks. That's not how I was behaving. I didn't have the patience, the virtue, the love, the care for my children. I had a lot of the things, other things going on in my heart and mind that were distracting me. So, you know, I mean, and it sounds like, wow, what a failure, Matt, you're called to be married and to be a father.

And those are the two things that I realized my brokenness and my, you know, my lack of health and my lack of kind of integration were really those two big, big areas of my life.

Joey: Thank you for sharing so openly, so vulnerably, and man, I can't relate on so many levels. I've totally seen that in my own life.

Like, the areas I think where we're most called to greatness are often the areas where we struggle the most, where we kind of realize our lack. And when I think of, you know, [00:07:00] movies or any sort of story, right? That's the heroic journey of, like, realizing, like, hey, I want this thing. Like you said, I want to be this great father and husband.

I want to, like, break the cycle of brokenness and wounds from the past. But I can't do it. Like I really can't do it on my own. And especially when you come to that realization where it's like, no, like I, I thought I could do it on my own, but I actually really can't do it on my own. Yeah. It's actually a really good and beautiful moment.

And I think, um, that's where we reach out for help. We get those guides, those mentors in our life who help us to kind of win the day and give us the plan we need and, you know, challenge us and all that. Good stuff. And so no, I think it's like, it's such a beautiful moment, but when you're in the midst of it, it's like, this is not beautiful.

This is not fun. It's, it's really grueling. And, uh, and especially on the marriage front, I, yeah, I think, um, one of the things we see through the data about children of divorce is that that's the area of your life that's most impacted by your parents divorce. That's the area of your life that you're typically going to struggle the most in is in your own marriage and your own romantic relationships.

And so, um, [00:08:00] man, I felt that. I felt that, you know, at a deep level in my dating relationships, um, even in my friendships to an extent, um, but especially in marriage, it's like I almost feel, you know, a bit incompetent. I felt a bit incompetent, certainly have gained virtue and grown in those areas, but man, it's, it's grueling, it's hard.

And so I think it's, um, really freeing and helpful. And one of the lessons I've learned from you over the years too, I've, I've known you over the years, I've gotten to know you more lately, um, but I've been observing you from afar. And lately I've Get more of a glimpse into how awesome you are. Um, and I think like that power of just admitting like, yeah, I'm struggling here.

I'm not where I want to be is so, so powerful. Talk about that for a second. Like even just that acknowledgement, like, why is that so powerful? Why is it so helpful?

Matt: You know, Joey, in my life, I don't know all the factors that played into this, but Growing up and even, you know, in high school and college was kind of a break from this.

And then I kind of went back to it after college in many ways, but gosh, I guess the concise way of saying it is admitting your weaknesses to [00:09:00] me was a sign of failure. It was a sign of, I didn't plan well enough. I wasn't disciplined enough. I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't virtuous enough. I wasn't holy enough, fill in the blank.

I wasn't blank enough. And admitting my weaknesses and brokenness meant that I wasn't. And I think that's, that's a lie. That's a lie that I've been really working in my life to overcome and address and allow the Lord to speak truth over those lies. But those are lies that I believe for a very long time.

And so admitting weakness for me showed. Great vulnerability to be hurt and to be, yeah, to be weak, I think, and that's what I associated, you know, admitting that with, you know, I associated admitting my weaknesses with being weak, not good enough, not whatever enough, and Joey, it really is allowing the Lord into that brokenness, and there's actually so much more freedom now to not say I need to hide this and cover it, but to say, let me show you that I'm not fully [00:10:00] together.

And friends and family and wife, Danielle's my wife, like this is broken and I need your help. And, you know, our, our path, our, our vocation is to get each other to heaven. And I need my wife. I need her to become the man that I'm called to be and to be the saint that I'm called to be. And so I think for a long time, I just was in self preservation mode.

And I was too afraid to admit my weaknesses and the areas that I needed help in. And there's been a great freedom in more recent seasons of my life to name those things and to invite others into those areas of brokenness and weakness.

Joey: No, I love that. And I always admired people who are not, you know, kind of addicted to secrecy or to controlling their own image, or at least they get to that point where they're able to be more vulnerable and open.

I remember there was a couple recently who I spoke pretty openly about different struggles they've had and even mistakes they've made as a couple in the past, like individually as a couple too. And um, I remember just like having so much admiration for them and thinking like, wow, you can be so [00:11:00] honest and so open about like what you're going through and where you've messed up.

There's something really great and beautiful. And I think that does lead to transformation. And on that note of transformation, I'm curious, like what transformation or transformations occurred in your life? I know some are ongoing and that's really beautiful, um, that have kind of led you from maybe that.

Yeah. place of struggle to a better spot to where you are today.

Matt: Gosh, I'm a work in progress, Joey. So the other side of transformation, I wouldn't say I'm there, but I think the Lord is transforming parts of my heart and parts of who I am. And, you know, going to counseling was really helpful for me. And what it did is it allowed me to start seeing things as they were.

And to no longer have my blinders up or my perceptions of things or even my self preservation up, like it allowed me to start being honest and vulnerable and seeing things as they were. So that was a huge step of transformation. Instead of seeing myself as completely weak or not good enough or not whatever enough, I started to see, gosh, [00:12:00] there's actually Patterns in my life.

There's people in my life. There's memories in my life that are affecting me and my behavior. And no wonder it's hard for me to, you know, journeying uphill and climbing a mountain without, um, any breaks. And so I think just that counseling allowed me to see things a little more for what they were. It doesn't take away my part.

It doesn't take away You know, my culpability in things, but it did allow me to see things more fully. So that allowed me to actually start working on things and working at the root of things. And so I really was able to start seeing my brokenness, not just through Matthew, the failure, but through like a fuller story and a fuller picture of my context.

And I started to see gaps in my formation. I even started to see gaps in my formation, upbringing as a child and could understand, Oh, this is connected to that. That makes a lot of sense. And I, that was really transformative for me. It allowed me to start forgiving myself. It allowed me to start forgiving [00:13:00] others.

And I think forgiveness has honestly been the biggest power of transformation in my life. I've needed a ton of forgiveness from others. And. You know, just recently, you know, I was at the National Eucharistic Congress and, you know, was, was praying that the Friday reflection, the theme was all about, um, mercy and repentance, right?

And that evening, it just hit me like a ton of bricks, like my, my relationship with Jesus was hindered because I've not forgiven someone in my life. And there were actually multiple people that came to mind that I needed to forgive and ask forgiveness from as well. And so I think that's been a huge.

Transformation in my life is not being so proud and being able to admit that I've, I failed and I've hurt others in my life and that I need their forgiveness and then to be very liberal about my forgiveness to those who have hurt me and that has brought about just a change interiorly for me, a receptivity and openness, just a greater capacity to love and it goes both ways.

I've needed to be [00:14:00] forgiven and I've needed to forgive others. So it's gone both ways and it's increased this capacity. So that's been the biggest transformation in my life. But I would also say just awareness of my wounds and the things in my life. Um, you know, um, Bob shoots will talk about type a trauma and type B trauma.

One is, you know, something terrible has been done to you and the other is something was missing. And I think for me, as I reflect on my own life and you know, I think People listening to this Joey certainly can identify with trauma in their life. You look back and when you, when you see the full picture of your life and the things that have happened to you or the things that haven't happened to you, it allows you to see a fuller narrative and a fuller picture.

And. For me, it allows me to have more mercy and compassion towards myself and mercy and compassion towards others. And so that's been a huge, that self awareness and just allowing the, the Lord has been able to move in those places because I've just had more room after that self reflection and that, that greater [00:15:00] awareness.

Joey: So good. And it sounds like it's increased your capacity to just love overall, like you're, you're more free to love, which we'll get to a little bit later, which I think is just so, so good and beautiful. I definitely in my life has seen that, you know, seeking God's forgiveness is hard. Seeking other people's forgiveness is hard, but the hardest by far is like forgiving yourself.

And there's something about that that I think we just want to hold on to. And I think on a lot of levels, I know And my own story, especially going back to the, you know, different mistakes I've made, you know, I think there's part of myself that kind of hates the other part of myself, where it's like, like, you idiot, like, why did you, you know, do that stuff?

Like, now I can see more clearly, of course, but in the moment I was in so much pain and just, you know, obviously acting in a way that's not, you know, Um, that's not good. And so I think, yeah, it's really important that we, you know, have that, take that compassionate, that, um, merciful approach to ourselves, not just to other people and not just like going to God asking for forgiveness.

So it sounds so, so helpful. I wanted to ask you though, when it comes to forgiveness, um, for some people can be kind of this elusive thing. Is there some sort of process or [00:16:00] thought or points that you kind of anchor on to when it comes to both giving forgiveness to people who've hurt you and also seeking forgiveness from people maybe that you've hurt?

Matt: I've been really moved just by Jesus and how he commands us to forgive. And in this journey of learning how to forgive more and more, I'm becoming more and more aware of just how this theme is constant in his message. Every time we pray the Our Father, for example, do we realize that we are asking him to forgive us?

I'm asking to be forgiven in the same way that I forgive others. That's literally what I'm praying. Give us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. So every time we pray the, our father, which is at every mass, multiple times, if we say the rosary multiple times, if we said the divine mercy chapel, like any, like the prayers of our, you know, Catholic life or for non Catholics, we say the, our father as well, you know, as Protestants.

So, you know, this is a prayer. given to us by Jesus. And, you know, we are [00:17:00] commanded to forgive. And we are asking in that prayer that we be forgiven the same way that we forgive others. I've been very moved by that and very challenged by that, right? To even look at my heart and say, do I want to forgive certain things and not other things, other things that I want to still hold on to, um, or other things that I'm holding on to and not allowing the Lord to really speak, uh, the truth of forgiveness over those things in my own life.

And so, um, yeah, I think just really praying through that, that line in the, our father has been really powerful for me. Um, in addition, there's another scripture that really convicts me of this. And Jesus talks about, you know, forgiveness and with the measure you use to forgive, you'll be forgiven. Right.

And I keep thinking about that measure and I don't, I don't know about you, but. I have been one to calculate the cost. Oftentimes, like to forgive someone means that I'm actually releasing them of the debt or of what's actually just what's even maybe [00:18:00] even owed to me. I'm like releasing that. I'm forgiving them.

Like that is, that's what mercy is, is to, to receive something you don't deserve. And right when we show mercy and forgiveness to someone, we're releasing them of that debt. And like the measure with which I Forgive is the same measure with which. I will be forgiven like, man, that get that convicts me to want to forgive more and more holy and more completely and not even hold on to the things that, you know, I think I could quickly quickly say, Oh yeah, I forgive you.

Or, you know, sometimes I'll just quickly say, Oh, I'm sorry. It's like, no, if I have wronged someone, I need to take ownership for that and truly ask for forgiveness. And when someone asks for forgiveness from me, I need to truly offer that in the same way that I hope that. Our Lord forgives me of my sins on my judgment day.

Joey: Beautiful. That's a really strong point that it's not enough to just say the words, like obviously the words are part of it. You know, meaning the words is, is more important though, and really like putting your heart behind it. And I know it's kind of, you know, [00:19:00] depending on how someone hurt you and how serious it was, it can be this ongoing thing.

It's not just like a one and done thing as well. So I think all those are like really important points that you hit on. And I, yeah, we, we had father John Burns on in an episode. We'll link to that. I can't remember the exact episode. Number, but, um, we'll link to it. So if you guys want to hear more about forgiveness and like his whole process of forgiveness, um, that episode is awesome.

And one of the things I learned from him and I'm hearing you say too, is there's this important component of forgiveness to be just like moved by the misery of the other or ourselves. Right. And so. There's this important component, especially when we're like challenged to forgive that we need to be moved by their misery and to see them in their humanity, not just in the way that they harmed us.

And I know for a lot of people listening right now, especially who've gone through their parents divorce or the family, you know, just, just really dysfunctional. They might harbor a lot of anger, a lot of even hate towards their parents. And like the idea of forgiving them is just like almost impossible.

What would you say to them in that situation? Um, if, if they do feel kind of convicted by this, but they feel a little bit stuck.

Matt: Yeah, it helps me. [00:20:00] I was talking with a friend recently, and he reminded me of the stages of forgiveness. And so when you've been hurt and wronged, right, you lose trust, right?

There's a relation, there's a broken part of your relationship. And forgiveness is not forgetting, right? And we were just talking about how, gosh, where are you at in your stage of forgiveness with the circumstance of this person? And, you know, he was sharing with me that forgiveness is stage one. Stage two is, Rebuilding, it's reconciliation, like to reconcile and stage three is to begin trusting again that I don't know whose model that is.

I can't claim that. And I don't think my friend can either. I think it's someone else's model. But that really resonated with me. There's a freedom. I could be more liberal with my forgiveness if I'm not saying let's pretend it's all better. Now we're reconciled and back at square one and pretending like nothing happened.

That's not what forgiveness is right. But forgiveness is is truly like a release of the, the burden of, of that sin of that pain that someone [00:21:00] caused you. And I'm, I'm forgiving you. I'm choosing to forgive you just as Jesus forgave on the cross. That doesn't mean that like when he forgave that, like his wounds were immediately transformed, he was still in pain and he was still bleeding on the cross.

Like that, that forgiveness didn't fix everything, but he still chose to forgive. And I think that's like to live in that is okay. You can still choose to forgive even if the pain is raw, and that doesn't mean that you've moved into reconciliation or fully trusting and beginning again with someone, but, um, Jesus forgave on the cross when his pain was real, and it was, it was present.

It wasn't in the past. And he still never gave

Joey: the beautiful and inspiring. And I love the stages idea, especially if there's maybe a person who it would be very bad idea to have some sort of reconciliation. Like there's obviously that component of it too, if they would be like unsafe or, you know, very toxic, unhealthy to level where you can't be in that situation.

So yeah, that, that's really, really helpful. I love it.

Matt: Joey, I might say this too. Just one more thought came to mind. [00:22:00] I think we're all called to forgive. Like in person and with our words. But if you can begin, if you're really struggling, there's a painful relationship or you've been really hurt in your life, you can start by desiring to forgive and beginning that in your own heart.

Like, Lord, I want to forgive this person. Lord, I want to get up, get to a place of forgiveness. And that forgiveness can begin just in the silence of your heart and that wrestling and asking the Lord to move. you know, if you're not ready to actually go to that person and, um, offer forgiveness. So I think there's a, there's a process.

And if that's where you're at, just pray for the desire to want to forgive and, and wrestle with the Lord in that.

Joey: So good. And the benefits are there. Like if you've never experienced it, once you really go through that process of forgiving someone who's hurt you, you literally won't realize like, like, wow, I did not realize I was carrying around this like Boulder on my back that's just been weighing me down on so many levels and when you forgive them It's like, you know, there's so much freedom there There can't be at least if it's genuine and you know, I [00:23:00] I've experienced that myself, which is yeah I hope everyone listening can can go through that.

I know it's not easy. But like Matt I hear you saying just take the small steps take the small steps

Matt: Yeah

Joey: And um, you know challenge yourself to to kind of go outside your comfort zone when the time is right But anything else you dad before you move on?

Matt: You mentioned the word freedom, and I think that's very true when we, when we forgive others, but also if we have harmed others, there's tremendous freedom in being forgiven.

And I'll share this, Joey, I have asked for forgiveness from people before that I still felt like there was a debt owed, if you will, like there was Unresolved things there. It was just for me to still feel the way that I did in a circumstance, but me admitting my part and asking forgiveness and expressing sorrow for my part in that circumstance.

And it was not conditional on the other person apologizing to me. Right? So often I want if I'm going to apologize and I'm owed an [00:24:00] apology as well. I want for that. the other person to do that. And I've been really praying to be free from whatever the other side is, whatever the outcome is, that I still am going to own my part.

I'm going to apologize. I'm going to ask for forgiveness. And I've been so much freer as a result, even if that person didn't apologize to me and own up to their part. That hurt me. And so I just wanna encourage you, like, there's, there's freedom, such a freedom in forgiveness and it, the, the context doesn't have to be like, oh yeah, we're totally on the same page about how this is gonna look.

Like. You can still offer that to someone else or ask for it of yourself even before that other person is ready to take their step forward. So

Joey: such an. Yeah, that's such an important point. No, please keep going. I just, I didn't mean to jump in there. I can't emphasize enough because from what we're hearing from a lot of the young people that we're walking with is, you know, they maybe like one or both of their parents are in that spot where they've like made some decisions or done some things that have really hurt their kids and they might be [00:25:00] oblivious to it.

Or just like lack such awareness that it's like, wow, like this hurt me so bad and mom or dad don't even realize it.

Matt: They have no clue.

Joey: Yeah, or if they do, they're just like, for one reason or another, they haven't done anything about it and, and that could be like such a heavy burden. So, I like this idea that it can be this one way thing, which I think ultimately, You know, if there's could be reconciliation, that's the goal, but at least starting with yourself because that's the only person you could control.

Matt: Yeah. And Joey, I think just going back to Jesus, right. He says on the cross, father, forgive them for they know not what they do. Right. Maybe they did like what a generous and unmerited request of the father. Like, they know that they're killing him, and they're torturing him, and he's bleeding and dying on the cross, right?

Suffocating, yeah. Yes, like, they can see that this man is suffering to a great degree, and he still says, Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. And I do think that, gosh, what a challenge it is to show [00:26:00] that kind of mercy to people. And what I'm not saying is that people don't need to take responsibility for the pain that they've caused others.

But, That may not always come before you express forgiveness. The order doesn't have to be that way. So anyways, I'm inspired by Jesus and, um, want to be more like him in the way he forgave even when he was in the pain on the cross.

Joey: Truly heroic. And on that note, I think it's so important we talk a lot about health and wholeness and all these terms that, you know, people are familiar with.

Um, but I don't think we slow down to really define our terms. And so I'd love to kind of go there now with you. And again, thank you so much for sharing so much. And your insights are always just so brilliant. Um, that's why I wanted to talk with you about this. So I'm curious, let's dive into this. Let's throw this around a bit.

Like, what's the first thing that comes in mind when you think of a healthy or whole person?

Matt: Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind, ironically, is what it's not, because I think for so long, [00:27:00] I've been striving for something that's not whole or healthy. And so, you know, I think about something that is whole is something that is not divided.

It's not separated. It's united. It's, it's one. It's as it was intended to be. And I think about, you know, for the human person, being whole is looking at everything, all the aspects that God has created you with, right? I have a body. He's given me a body. He's given me a mind. He's given me a soul. He's given me a heart, right?

And it's when those things are connected and in harmony with one another, that's what it is to be whole. And I think so much of life because of original sin, right? Adam and Eve before the first sin were whole, right? Their, their bodies, their minds, their hearts, their desires matched what they did. Like there was not a disintegration of these things.

And it wasn't until that sin and that lie from the enemy that they started to believe that disintegration started to happen. [00:28:00] They were no longer whole, they were broken. There was brokenness in their desires and their relationships and their bodies in the world, right? There was pain, there was suffering, there was work, right?

So I think wholeness is the unity and the harmony of those aspects with which God has created us. Body, mind, soul, like all of those things Being in harmony with one another.

Joey: It's so good. It's almost like the parts aren't at war with each other. They're all working together, moving in one direction. And that's what I hear you saying about, you know, going to the biblical story of Adam and Eve.

Like they, it's not like their desires were telling them to do one thing and their mind was telling them, no, that's not good. Do this other thing. It was like, no, their desires wanted the good thing. And their mind was like, yeah, do the good thing. Yeah. It'd be nice to experience. Yeah.

Matt: Well, it's like, Joe, we've talked about like working on virtues, like, and as men, we're called to work on virtues.

What if like, It wasn't work to be virtuous, right? I think that's Adam and Eve just their desires so fully [00:29:00] like integrated with what was good for them. They didn't have to think about, I need to do the virtuous thing right now. It just, that was in alignment, right? And, and like, gosh, what would that be like?

But I think that's what the journey of the lifeline journey towards wholeness is. It looks like it's, and for us, it takes like virtue building, it takes flexing muscles. It takes prayer and emptying ourselves to, to really make space for like that virtue to happen. But I think it's getting to that original place, right?

That's what heaven will be like where our bodies, our mind, everything is, is restored. Everything is made new and as it, as it should be.

Joey: That's so good. So yeah, the, I guess disintegration, like you said, would be kind of the division of the parts kind of warring against each other, wanting different things.

Um, maybe some parts of you wanting good things, other parts of you wanting bad things, like your intellect typically wanting the good and then there may be desires wanting the bad. Um, and then in integration would be the opposite of what we're saying, which is like everything's kind of in alignment. So just trying to make sure I understand everything on that front.

And I [00:30:00] think, yeah. Yeah. Anything else to add before we move on?

Matt: No, Joey, I appreciate this about you. I've been, I've really appreciated our, our growing friendship as well. Joey is a man that is very good at being concise and getting to the point and I am not. So I appreciate you driving the point home, uh, to really make a clear point.

I really, really love that about you.

Joey: Oh, thank you. No, I think we make a good team for sure. Um, I think there was something about like looking at what it's not, you know, to, to, in order to define like health and wholeness. Cause I think we look around us and we definitely see many examples of, of what it's not.

And I want to go into that in a moment, but another question I guess is like, can health and wholeness be obtained or is it more of an infinite goal that we're kind of always like working on?

Matt: I don't know the answer to that, but here's, here are my thoughts. I don't, I think, I don't think we will be whole, completely whole until we're one with God in heaven.

I don't think that that's possible. And maybe it is possible if you. If you [00:31:00] die a living Saint and you've totally like been cleansed of the disintegration in your life. Right. So maybe, maybe I would go back on that if there's like, okay, a living Saint, like was mother Teresa whole? I mean, I want to believe she was pretty darn close to it if not there, but I think what my response would be, Joey, I think it's more like the same question of holiness.

So, Joey, are you holy? Right? I hope that you would say yes. I would say yes. But are you done becoming holy? Yeah. Are you done with your, your path of holiness and your journey towards holiness? Absolutely not. Like, so for me, am I, am I holy? Gosh, I hope so. Am I as holy as I need to be? No. But so similarly, I think.

Am I whole? You know, I'm a lot more whole than I was a year ago or 10 years ago, but I'm not done becoming whole, if that makes sense. So, I think it's more of a journey. It's a, you know, a spectrum kind of sounds like a weird word to use, but in many ways, I think it is. I've, [00:32:00] I'm, I'm far more healthy and holy, um, and Whole, not holy as in, um, you know, close to God, but whole, W H O L E.

I'm more whole than I was a decade ago, and I'm really grateful for that. Um, so, I don't know. Does that make sense?

Joey: Yeah. No, I'm tracking with you. It's, it's bringing up a lot of, um, kind of thoughts and questions. One idea, I know we're talking about like wholeness, holiness, and health. I kind of thrown these terms around.

I almost think of like holiness as like, it's not like we're all mirrors. And the more clear the reflection of Jesus is, that's like the level of your holiness. I like to think of it that way. And then I guess health would be maybe a little bit, certainly tied in with all that, but maybe a little bit more removed in that, like the, maybe there's this like ideal of the human person and, you know, Christians, Catholics would say that's Jesus, right?

Uh, we would say that. Um, but that's kind of like what we're striving towards. Like how, how, how accurately do we reflect what it means to be human, like at the deepest level. And [00:33:00] so it brings up the question of like, well, you know, it's a big question. Like why are we here? Like, what's the whole point of all this?

Because if we just measure like health and wholeness on like a secular materialistic level, we would probably look at people's looks. You know, we'd look at their fitness. We'd look at their like physical health. We wouldn't really go below the surface and think of this whole like kind of spiritual realm as well.

Um, so I think our definition, like you, like you said, well, before it needs to be very holistic and he's include all the aspects of the human person. You mentioned the soul, the body, the heart, you know, the mind, um, which I love. So I think there's something to all of that. I know I'm kind of, um, going down different rabbit holes here, but I think that there's something to, to that.

And so to me, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. I think the whole purpose of life is to love. And so I think the, really the best measure of maybe health and wholeness is like your capacity to love, like the greater your capacity to love, um, the more free you are, the more healthy, the more whole you are.

If there's any inhibitions, if there's any barriers that are holding you back, that's just one way, in my opinion, to [00:34:00] measure, um, your, you know, health and wholeness. Health and wholeness. And I guess another way to measure freedom too. So any thoughts on any of that?

Matt: Gosh, I love both of those words. You just named like two of my favorite words, freedom and love.

Um, and then you put those together, freedom to love. Um, so I can't help but think of john paul the second who talks about freedom, right? Freedom is not I can do whatever I want. It's the freedom to do what I ought, right? Um, right. Freedom to love that really reflects the freedom to love because we were made to love.

So I can't help it. Reference JP too, because I think he got this so well. I think he lived integration so well, right? You look at body, mind, soul. Like this man was living it all, right? He's skiing and glorifying God with his body, but he's also going deep with the Lord intellectually and writing deep truths of our faith.

And he had this huge heart, this great capacity to love, um, right? Anyone. I just remember being a kid in his presence. I [00:35:00] felt loved by him. Right. I just felt loved by the man. He had such a capacity to love. And so I think you're really onto something that, you know, the measure is your capacity to love your freedom to give of yourself and love.

But something you mentioned earlier just is a similar temptation that I have to measure these things more on the externals. I think we're more comfortable with. with externals, right? Um, what's a healthy person look like? Well, they'd be in good shape and they would, um, be well put together and all of those things.

But I think too often today and in society we focus on those exteriors far too much than we do on the interior health, right? The, the health of the wholeness of the heart and the mind, the soul and right. Think about just social media. How often, Joey, do we just post the good things that exteriorly, right?

We appear this way. And, you know, I, I've some, some of the most fit people that I've ever known are some of the most broken when you actually get [00:36:00] to know them. But, but there's almost this like, gosh, I feel a sense of control or I feel like a sense of accomplishment or I'm getting somewhere. If I've mastered this one part of, you know, my life, but it's just that one part, right?

It's the, the physical body. Uh, and you know, that's only one part of the whole person, right? So I think it can be really, um, yeah, it's, it's disintegrated if we only focus on that. Um, and I think Jesus even talks about this with the Pharisees and the Sadducees and he talks about, you know, the cup. Right.

And the, the cleansing, you know, if we only cleanse the exterior, what people see, um, he's far more interested on the interior. And so I think that's actually a really tough thing. What I'm not saying is like, let's dismiss the body because I think the body really does matter. Um, but I think it's easier for us to only focus on that and not focus on the interior things.

And Jesus really warns against that. It's really good. Yeah. And I think to integration. I thought a lot about [00:37:00] this recently. They're kind of, these are going to be like unfiltered thoughts and words, but just how integration is rooted in the word integrity, right? Even in preparation for this podcast, Joey, I was like, how, how would you simply define integrity?

Because I could use a lot of words. What, what is integrity? So it's the state of being whole and undivided is one definition that I saw. So the state of being whole and undivided, and what is it to have an undivided heart and mind and will and desires, right? Like when those things are aligned, like, gosh, that's, that's integrity versus, you know, even Paul talks about this and I find so much support from Paul.

Like he was a Saint, you know, transformed his life, but still after following the Lord. struggled with sins of the flesh and struggled. Like, why do I do the things I don't want to do? Why is my, you know, my greatest desires not aligning with my like earthly and like worldly and carnal desires. Right. It's because, [00:38:00] um, he's not yet whole.

Right. And I think that's if St. Paul could struggle with that. And he was much closer to Jesus than I was like, I find a lot of consolation and saying, okay, you know, why do I do the things I don't want to do? And why do I not do the things that I want to do? Well, because I'm not whole yet. I'm not fully integrated.

And that's what I need more healing in my life to get there. So, um, but I think going back to what you said, Joey, like that freedom to love. I really do think if there's a measurement, if there's a KPI to all of this, that's it. Like, am I free to give up myself? And I also think we have to be careful though.

Some people can get busy being. Martha's and right doing I'm giving of myself almost to cover up the things that, um, I don't like or that the areas that do need healing. So it truly is a freedom to love and fully give of yourself, not just to be doing things to contribute to make other people's lives better to show love and care for others.

But it's to love is like freedom to love, like holy, [00:39:00] like entirely, not just out of, uh, yeah. Gosh, um, I really ought to be doing something out of love for someone else. Right. I think that's an important distinction. Like, um, Martha and Mary, that's a tension in me sometimes is the doer or the beer. And I think, you know, Mary was able to just be at the foot of Jesus at the feet of Jesus.

And that was loving just as much as Martha's doing. And so both are really important.

Joey: Yeah, no, I felt either. Um, so many good things. One point you made about kind of our culture is really interesting to look around and see like what we value like what we almost Like you might be able to say like worship and it really is things like wealth, you know Fitness quote unquote success in the form of like, you know popularity or business or something like that We worship celebrities on some level too and we worship youth and in our culture in particular And so it's, it's really interesting to see like that's kind of what we would maybe define as a secular culture as like health and [00:40:00] wholeness or like the goal, but, uh, but it's very different than what we're saying.

Not to say those things aren't a component of it. Sure. But it's not like to the level that, you know, I think our culture overemphasizes and probably overemphasizes because there's like not much depth, um, below it. Like, there's not that, like you said, the interior part, like the, the spiritual component and the deep, like focus on love and, and doing good and all that.

So I think that that's really important to highlight that we're very much so diverting from that in our definition. And the other thing I thought of too, is I think love is like the pinnacle of all the virtues, right? And so it's the greatest of all the virtues. Um, so I guess another way we could say what we're saying is like the greatest measure of health is virtue.

And so that's, I think, a really important thing to maybe get into a little bit. And some of the time we have left, like to someone who's maybe hearing that word and thinking like, yeah, I kind of know what that is, but couldn't really define it. Um, yeah, well, let's talk about that. Like, what is a definition of virtue?

And yeah, let's dive in there.

Matt: Gosh, [00:41:00] these definitions. I'm not good at this Joey. This, this requires like a concise answer. Yeah. And

Joey: in Matt's way, like how would you define like virtue? If someone came up to him, like what's virtue?

Matt: Yeah. I think some, I've been doing a lot of work with priests and seminarians around just integration.

And, you know, there's a lot of spiritual realities for priests and seminarians, specifically a priest, right? You're a spiritual father, but you're also. Right? You're not just called to give sacramentally to people. You're called to give of your whole self, right? It's very, it's not that different, actually, from you and I and our fatherhood, right?

We pour ourselves out and we give of ourselves and right? We get woken up in the middle of the night. And this morning my son, you know, was crying and my wife was like, he's awake. I was like, Oh, he sure is, isn't he? Um, and Right. The, the part of me that desires to love and to give of myself after the second [00:42:00] time got up and got him so that my wife could sleep in.

But I guess, um, you know, I guess virtue. It's so easy for me to describe what virtue isn't. It's harder for me to describe what virtue is like virtue. I think is like this. It gives you this like self possession so that you can give of yourself, right? And, um, virtue, there's so many virtues. Jesus was the most virtuous man.

So it really points back to how did Jesus live and how did these virtues connect and integrate? Because, you know, I could, I could say, well, the virtue of prudence is this, but sometimes a moment calls for the virtue of courage, right? And it's actually, these things are not an opposition, they're integrated, right?

So similarly, like, I think we're talking a lot about integration, how these things are connected. I could out of, you know, prudence say, well, gosh, I didn't get much sleep last night. So my wife should get up with the baby so that I can be well rested and do well at work and, uh, give my full self there. But what about [00:43:00] charity?

Right? What about love? The greatest of these is love. And so, so I need to get up and out of, out of love, be motivated to show my wife that. So I guess what I'm trying to say, Joey, is that Lack of virtue, I think, is a person who is just very of the world, you're, you're formed by the world, you value the things of the world, and virtue allows me to not be that worldly person, it allows me to look at where I'm going and to choose the good over my own desires, to choose something greater than my own desires, so a lack of virtue is I just I do whatever I want.

And I'm actually not happy at the end of that, right? If it's choosing sin or pleasure or eating or drinking or whatever it is, that lack of virtue doesn't actually make me happy and whole. It's virtue that makes me happy and whole. It's the orienting of myself towards higher goods towards the greatest goods.[00:44:00]

Um, and that's what I think virtue is all about.

Joey: I love that. And I, it makes so much sense. And that, you know, what I hear you describing as vice is what, you know, Catholic Christian culture would call sin. And in many ways, and yeah, I agree. Like promises a lot, you know, it seems like being selfish would be like a better way to live.

In some ways it's like only worrying about yourself and having whatever you want. It's like, that sounds kind of great. And then you live it and you do it. And it's like, wow, this is miserable and very empty. And like, this is not, You know, it doesn't deliver what it promises. I think that's like an earmark of vice.

It's like, it's always, it tricks you, it tricks you. Whereas virtue on the other hand, often it's just hard. And especially at the beginning, it's just difficult. And then once you attain a virtue or integrated into your character, um, there's just like this middle of mastery and freedom. And you actually experience the satisfaction, the joy, and the peace that you long for.

Not to add like this level of utopia or euphoria, but, but at a level that's like, wow, okay, this is like what I was made for, this [00:45:00] is the life that I want to live. And so one of the things I was thinking back to is like the, the way the Greeks thought about virtue. I'm going to butcher this, but, um, was it Arete where they said it's like virtue is essentially like human excellence, where it's like, it's like take a human and everything a human should be.

And if they're full, like if they have virtue, then they're like, Thriving in human excellence, not just excellent at some function, like they're great at golf or they're great at math or something like that, or great at business, it's like, no, they actually are like a great, they're great at being human.

And there's something about that that's just so good. And so I remember too, the Greeks defined virtue as the right, the habitual disposition to do the good, if I'm remembering that right, habitual disposition to do the good. And so in that, there's kind of like two components that I've always thought of.

One is. There's obviously the habit part. It's like good habits, you know, um, those are virtues. Um, and then that kind of inclination, that disposition, that almost like leaning towards like what is good is another component of it. So it's like it has to do with your heart, not just your actions too. And so I think those [00:46:00] things, um, for me have always been helpful in addition to everything you said, which I think was so well said.

And, you know, ultimately they, yeah, just bring about this, like, again, mastery in life that lead to lead to freedom. And on that note, and then I love to hear what you have to say. I remember you and I talking a bit about that whole, if love is the point of life, if the greatest of the virtues is love, and that's like what we're trying to orient our life around that there's so much like joy and freedom and happiness to be found in giving yourself away and, you know, in a healthy way, then.

We, you know, we really need to work up to that point, but what precedes that point, you know, that self gift is really self possession. Like we need to have that mastery over ourselves as we've talked about. So that's like one, you know, level below it. And then another level below that is we need self awareness, right?

We need to kind of learn about ourselves and be able to kind of know how we operate in different situations with different people, like when we're, our wounds and triggers and different things like that, or maybe just blind spots and deficiencies and all that. And then one level below that would be just self [00:47:00] knowledge.

So I'll kind of explain that again. So self knowledge is the starting point. And that's what you talked about. Um, that's, I heard you saying earlier when you talked about going to therapy, just like learn more about yourself, almost as if you were getting to know another person, it's like, Oh, I'm learning parts of myself, parts about myself that I didn't really know before.

I didn't fully understand. I'm getting insight into maybe blind spots, things like that. So that's self knowledge. Then leads to self awareness. Now I can take that knowledge, I can go out into the world, I can be in a relationship with other people, and I know like, oh, in this situation I might tend towards anger.

Or I might tend towards, you know, self pity or pride or arrogance, whatever. Any of the vices. And so I know I can course correct. I can act in a way that's maybe different than my inclination, because, like you said, we live in this broken world and we want to do things that maybe aren't good for us. And so then that self awareness leads us to, like, Once we get good at that, we have the self possession and then from self possession, we are able to make a gift of ourself, like we're, we're free.

And so, um, not to kind of circle around that too much, but I think that's, it's been so helpful for me and something obviously I'm still working on, but I think that model is, is really a freeing and helpful. And I think that, [00:48:00] I think we're getting at the heart of like what it means to be healthy and whole.

Matt: Yeah. Joe, I think it's so important to just understand why we do the things that we do and even to be curious about why. You know, I think that's, that's also been a really helpful piece for me is any of my weaknesses I associated with poor character or lack of virtue. And some of that's probably true, but some of it is also that I've been given a certain personality and I grew up in a certain home and I have my own experiences of life, good and bad, uh, pain that I've experienced and how I've responded to that as, you know, even as early as a child.

And I think that. If we want to make a self gift of ourselves, which I know that everyone desires that ultimately we all desire that it's impossible to do that unless we've worked backwards to understand what is actually going on inside of us. Right. And that's, it's so important that we go in that order.

It's, it's not even, it's not a neat order every time for me, at least it's, you [00:49:00] know, gosh, I want to be more generous. I want to love better. I want to give myself more. And it's like, well, I just can't right now. Okay. Why? Like what's going on? And if I work backwards, it's like, yeah, I'm still, I'm still selfish.

There's a, uh, there's a, you know, part of, there's a childhood Matt that is still wanting to be whole and, and is still broken. And, you know, unless the Lord can just totally supply the grace, which he can, he can, even if we haven't gone through this whole process of becoming whole and, and, and healing, he can provide grace so that we can skip those other steps and give a gift of ourselves.

So I do think that's the beauty of this. We need to do the work. We need to grow in our self awareness and self mastery so that we can give a gift of ourselves. But sometimes we do just need to pray for the grace and the virtue, the supernatural virtue to do heroic things, even when our human limitations get in the way.

I think that grace could provide, it can cover a lot of our weaknesses.

Joey: No, I love that. That's great advice. [00:50:00] And I was thinking too, when you were speaking how, you know what you're saying that we, at least in my life, and I've seen this in a lot of my friends lives, the people that I lead, we, when we're the most broken, I think that's when we're most susceptible to or most tempted to or most vulnerable to vice.

Right? Because we're seeking, usually we're in pain when we're broken, when we don't feel whole, when we're in an unhealthy spot. And then we go towards vice because it promises something that it doesn't deliver. It's a drug in a sense that it helps us to numb that pain. And then that, you know, in ways injures us more, it does more harm, it wounds us more.

And then we kind of go back to, you know, that, Oh, I'm really broken. And then there's this, this vicious cycle between brokenness and vice, brokenness and vice, brokenness and vice. I see it. all the time. And so I think in order to, you know, stop the vice, some people just kind of say, well, you just need to like be strong and be virtuous and just like kind of put them on a good front and just kind of like power through it.

And, and there's maybe some level of [00:51:00] merit to that. Like we do need to have strength and we can't, you know, just expect that if we think long and hard enough about our past, that everything's going to be perfect. And we're going to be able to, you know, Finally love people and be virtuous. There's some to taking action.

I'm not diminishing that But what I've seen so often is people just neglect the whole like brokenness and untreated trauma component of it I know you see this a lot in your work, too And so yeah I love any thoughts or comments on this whole like vicious cycle between brokenness and sin brokenness and vice that you're observing in your own life and then the

Matt: Yeah.

I mean, Joey, it's so prevalent in my own life and you know, the, the desire for virtue and then the lack of virtue and the lack of, you know what I mean? It's like, uh, Paul, I totally relate to you St. Paul. Um, but I, I think for so many years of my life, I relied on my own strength. And I relied on self sufficiency, uh, because of my woundedness, because of pain I've experienced in my life, [00:52:00] that it was a lot easier for me to say, well, gosh, to avoid that pain altogether, I'm going to be independent, I'm going to be self sufficient, I'm not going to rely on other people, I'm not going to be vulnerable, I'm not going to invent my weaknesses, right?

That caused me more pain. At least I thought it did. And it's been so freeing to understand it. My own woundedness. And, and, you know, another conversation, Joey could be about just, you know, the wounds that Bob shoots will talk about. And, you know, there's 7, 7 wounds that are very prevalent. And there's, there's more wounds than that.

But, you know, 7 common wounds and just naming those and understanding that those exist. And then, you know, And then knowing that when we've experienced pain in our lives, wounds are, I would say are synonymous with pain in many ways, right? Like if I've experienced a pain in my life, I'm wounded by that.

And if that wound doesn't get healed quickly, um, I start to believe things. about that pain, right? If I continue to feel that pain, you know, the devil totally sees our vulnerability [00:53:00] and start speaking lies to us. And we start believing, um, things that are not true about ourselves, about the world, about others, about the person that causes that pain about, you know, whatever.

And then over time we, we build vows, false vows that, you know, I will never be vulnerable again. I will never allow myself to be hurt in this way. I will never, whatever, fill in the gap with whatever you need to, to, to do. vows so that you're not hurt again. And for me, Joey, quite honestly, I've had so much more freedom in my journey and being able to name those wounds and accept that I'm wounded and that I'm in pain or have been in pain in my life, which sounds weak and vulnerable to say, uh, but it's true.

Um, even if the pain is still present and, and, and naming that wound, it, it has allowed me so much more quickly to build virtue and to invite like the Lord's healing into it versus. I need to heal myself. I need to self preserve. I need to be [00:54:00] independent. I don't want to need others. I don't even want to need God, you know, in this area of my life.

And so in the recognition of and naming certain wounds has just brought in so much more like grace and like growth and virtue has just been Much faster than me building virtue on my own love that

Joey: speaking of growth and virtue I know you work with a lot of business owners leaders priests bishops Even people in ministry wherever to do you coach them you have extensive experience as a CEO and you offer that sort of executive coaching And and more so if you would tell us about the work that you do what you offer and how people can find you online

Matt: Yeah, so Joey I Um, I've been formed a lot by Pat Lynchoni and, uh, his leadership principles and organizational health principles.

And I offer that to for profit leaders, um, as well as nonprofit leaders and particularly to priests and bishops and seminarians. So, I have one, one business that does work in pouring into leaders, help [00:55:00] building up their confidence in who they are as a leader, a lot of that self awareness, self mastery.

Like it's a lot of the things we've been talking about today and then how that affects an organization when you lead a team and when you lead an organization in a culture. So that's, that's one, one of the projects I'm working on. And then the second is, is called chrism and it's a project specifically for.

for priests, bishops, and seminarians to provide an integrated approach to ongoing formation. And what I've learned, Joey, is that leadership is just one piece of the puzzle. And for a lot of my life, you know, the last, you know, six or eight years, I was like, yeah, leadership is the key. Leadership is the key.

And it's definitely a gap in the formation for priests. I definitely still see it as a gap, but. What I found is that so many priests, if they're not growing in leadership and the principle is true and, and even they're convicted of that principle, but they're not actually able to embrace it and own it and implement it, it's because there's something else going on under the surface.

And so a lot of the work that I'm doing now is very integrated. It's, it's recognizing our woundedness or our [00:56:00] spiritual needs and how that affects us humanly and how that affects us as leaders. And so, um, it's been really beautiful to just look at the whole man. And if God is calling you to the priesthood, if you're already an ordained priest, or if you're a seminarian or even a bishop, you know, God, God wants to make, make them whole or shepherds whole.

And so a lot of the things that we've been talking about today, that's really the starting point for a lot of the work that we build on and can really help a man become the leader he's called to be. When we start looking at other aspects that, you know, That tend to be below the surface sometimes.

Joey: So good.

Love that. And, um, how can people find it online? Do you have two separate websites for both businesses?

Matt: Yeah, I'd probably highlight the, the priest one, uh, chrismpriest. com. Um, that's a more robust site that really explains those different offerings, but you can email me at Matt at chrismpriest. com if you want to know more.

And I'd be happy to share about the work I do with for profit leaders and business leaders as well.

Joey: Hey, super thankful to [00:57:00] know you and love the time we've had together as friends. And I look forward to growing even more together and to getting to know you better. Thank you so much for being here and for, yeah, just sharing all your brilliance and wisdom.

Um, in closing out, I want to give you the last word. I'm just curious, like what final advice or encouragement you offered everyone listening? Um, especially maybe people who. Maybe thinking like, why is this worth it? You know, is it worth it to struggle and to go all this? Like, why don't I just kind of live that selfish life that we talked about?

Matt: Yeah, Joey, I guess all I can speak to is my own experience and I'm on the journey towards wholeness. I'm not done. Um, but I, I can taste it. I can feel it. And I feel more free than I did six months ago, a year ago. It's taken a lot of work. It's taken a lot of self awareness, painful self awareness, and inviting other people in to help me grow in those areas, which is painful.

It's really painful to recognize your own woundedness and brokenness, but [00:58:00] it's also so much more free than trying to hide it. And I guess I would just encourage anyone that's struggling. It's like, if you're struggling to believe this, give it a try. And I think you'll find that there's so much more on the other side than just white knuckling it and trying to, trying to do it all on your own and pretend that it's okay on the outside.

And God made us to need each other. He made us to need each other. We literally need each other. I think he describes the body of Christ, right? Joey, you can't be the head and the heart and the foot and the arm and the ear and the nose and the eye. You can't be at all. Right. And for a lot of my life, that's how I tried to be.

Um, okay. I'm not an, I'm not an, I, but if I work hard enough, I can become an eye. It's like, no, maybe I'm just supposed to be, you know, a mouth or an ear. And that's what, and God need made me to need those other parts. And so I think, um, just maybe to, to close it, I think that's kind of what wholeness is. It actually looks like this oneness in Christ.

And [00:59:00] we get to experience that, um, through his body, the church, right? When the body of Christ is thriving and doing well, I've had moments in my life and seasons in my life that gosh, things are so edifying and I'm so full by being in the presence of other people and they're speaking into my life and I'm, I'm coming to know myself and coming to the Lord more fully.

And I guess I would just encourage anyone that's wondering if it's worth it or wondering if this is possible, just take the first step, take the first step by maybe inviting someone into. your woundedness, your brokenness or your fears, you know, maybe just take the first step in saying, you know what, maybe I'm not supposed to do this on my own.

And You know, start shedding some of that self reliance and allow yourself to be broken, allowing yourself to be received and allowing yourself to be loved. So that would be my encouragement. We're all on the journey. So brothers and sisters, I'm with you in it. And uh, I need these reminders myself. So Joey, hold me accountable to that because I need that in my own life.

Joey: [01:00:00] If you're a leader in a business, nonprofit, or even the church, and you're tired of leading alone, or maybe you feel like your overall health as a person is just lacking, I definitely recommend at least reaching out to Matt to see how he can help you, especially for any priests listening right now. Or maybe, you know, a priest who could use this.

Matt's told me about the great work that he's doing with priests, seminarians, even bishops. And it's incredible. It could honestly be the thing that you need to level up your leadership. And more importantly, just to become a healthier and more whole person leader. Again, go check out chrismpriest. com or reach out to Matt with the email that we'll put in the show notes for you guys.

If you come from a divorced or broken family, maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, so much more. And all of our content, all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured.

and build virtue so you can break the cycle and build a better [01:01:00] life. And so if you want to view the resources that we offer for yourself, or maybe someone that you know, just go to restored ministry. com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents, divorce or broken family, share this podcast with them.

Feel free to even do it now. Honestly, I promise you that they will be so grateful even if they don't tell you right away. And in closing, always remember you're not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#128: Abuse Led to My Parents’ Divorce | Emma

Pending! Stay tuned.

Emma was 14 years old when her parents divorced, but the dysfunction at home had been happening for years. In this episode, she shares how the dysfunction, divorce, and abuse have affected her. We also discuss:

• How she overcame victim mentality

• How abuse differs from bad behavior

• What helped her heal and how her life is better now as a wife and mother

Share Your Story with Restored

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Email Emma: injoyfulpraise@gmail.com

Domestic Violence Hotline

Visit BlackstoneFilms.co

Start Talking to Your Kids about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: [00:00:00] Emma was only 14 years old when her parents divorced. But the dysfunction at home had been happening for years. And in this episode she shares how that dysfunction, how the divorce and even the abuse. She endured has affected her. We also discuss. How she overcame victim mentality, how she felt tempted to that, but it was able to overcome it. Uh, we also talk about how abuse differs from just bad behavior.

Uh, she also shares why abusers do what they do, and also why it's hard to put emotions like anxiety and depression into words, especially when you're in the midst of it. And then also what what's helped her heal and how her life is now better. So she has a wife and a mother, really beautiful transformation.

Stay with us.

Welcome to the restorative podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken family. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Parnelli. This is episode 128.

We're so thrilled, the hair that so many of you have found the podcast and even our other resources, like our book, a helpful, and even healing for lots of great feedback. Uh, one reader of our book said this. I'm currently reading your book. It's not your fault and absolutely [00:01:00] loving it. It's been such an answered prayer and as such a gift, thank you for your hard work. Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing.

We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Blackstone films and a recent survey by Adobe 98% of gen Z and 91% of millennials said video as their top content choice. Uh, it's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that are using video content, especially in your marketing.

If you're like most of us, you know, you need to do that. You know, you need to create video content, but maybe you don't know where to start. You don't know. who to hire. You know, you don't know who to work with, how to do it yourself. And all of that can leave you kind of feeling overwhelmed to the point where you just go back to what, you know, what's the most comfortable, even if that isn't what's best for your situation, but that's where Blackstone films can help you.

There are Catholic film and video production company. Uh, that creates films that make you feel they can create things like trailers, promo videos, and commercials, social media videos, documentaries. fundraising videos and [00:02:00] even courses, we actually produce two video courses with them and had an excellent experience.

Whatever you need. Blackstone is obsessed. About helping you not just create video content, but create a clear win. For your business or your ministry such as fundraising for your event, selling a course, getting leads for your business, getting students to sign up for your school. Uh, promoting your event and so much more Blackstone has reached millions around the globe with their videos and they can help you. Too.

And so to view their past projects and the services that they offer are just contact them, go to their website, Blackstone films, dot co not.com, Blackstone films that CEO, or just click on the link in the show notes.

I guess it is Emma. She's a child of divorce and a survivor of domestic abuse. Uh, she was a cradle Catholic, but found a deeper relationship with God. In the midst of her parents lengthy. Divorce. She will soon publish her book on discovering identity and Christ and moving through victim hood to a life of victorious joy, and the strength of God.

She received her [00:03:00] BSN. From Franciscan university of Steubenville and is now using her degree. And, uh, pro-life centers, helping women, especially in the situations of abuse and a crisis pregnancies, things like that. Um, above all else, she is living her dream of marriage and motherhood. I just want to say that there is some mature content in this episode.

And so if you're listening with kids around, you might want to throw in some earphones. Also, we do talk about God and faith in this episode. And if you don't believe in God, You're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while, knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast.

And so wherever you're at. I'm really glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge too would be this. Just listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit a lot from this conversation.

With that. Here's my conversation with that, man.

 Emma, welcome to the show.

It's so good to have

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: is so good to be here. Thank you so much.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: When I read your story. Yeah, absolutely. When I read your story on our blog, I knew immediately I wanted to interview you. So I'm really happy that you're here. I know you have a heavy story. There's a lot to go through. And so I wanted to kind of go back in time to before your parents divorce. I'm curious what was like, what was life like at home and the years [00:04:00] and months before your parents

split?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: that's such a question because there are so many layers to it. I think the biggest layer is that, this was the family that I grew up in. And so I didn't know anything else. So I kind of tell people that your parents are the gold standard when you're a child, right? Like, you don't expect anything different.

And so when your house is a abusive household and everyone's walking on eggshells and discipline, quote discipline, is really like physical abuse, you expect it's like that for everybody. And so,

Yeah, I, I think another other layer to it was that, everybody really, really respected my family. Um, My mom comes from a very well known Catholic family who's highly respected.

my dad came from kind of a questionable background. We didn't, we actually still don't know much about his life. At least we're not sure what was true, what was not true. Um, but my [00:05:00] dad, kind of became like a very well liked person and everyone was Loved being around him. He was the life of the party.

I kind of noticed like he's a little bit of a different person around our family barbecues. Like we, as a family are happy when we're around other people. So growing up, I just kind of thought like, okay, you know, everyone has their struggles at home, like we all talk about. Um, but struggles for us were so vastly different than struggles for other people.

So I just assumed, you know, this is life. Like, you know. Um, sometimes you are abused, which the word abuse, we can talk more about this later. Um, I think as a child you expect that abuse is like someone's holding a gunpoint to your head. Someone is burning you with cigarettes. Like you expect these dramatic things to be happening every day and that's not always the case.

You know, there's things like gaslighting and manipulating and verbal abuse, which is usually very, very, hard on children, but they don't have the words. [00:06:00] to tell anyone else what they are feeling or going through because they expect, okay, it was my fault. Um, and so, you know, I, I really am not enough. so that's kind of the, the umbrella story of like what it's like at home.

Um, it's mostly just the fact that You don't know any different and you don't understand that what you're living in, even though you're going to church every Sunday, you're very well respected family, that it might actually still be abusive.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think there's a lot of, um, or there, there are families. I don't know the number, but there are certainly families in that situation where they put on like this good facade. I think maybe every family to some extent does it. But like you said, there's some where it's so vastly different to life at home and the life the public eye or at least in like your community is like very, very different.

I remember you and I were talking separately about the saying that the Germans have, it's, I forget the exact German, but it translates to an angel on the street and a devil

at home where you have like people or parents [00:07:00] who can give this great impression, can be really nice and well liked, like you said, and then at home, they can be totally different person, very, very dark and

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I think another point to that is that, when someone is a very like charismatic, outgoing, kind person out on the streets, you're more likely to sweep things under the rug that you might notice as like a yellow flag, like in the way that they talk to their children or discipline them in public.

it's not something that you're, you know, willing to think, I should think more about that. Um, about what I saw because you like them and they have the same views as you, the same values, the same like political leanings, like the way that you say that you're raising your children is the same that they say they're raising their children.

So when you see something, instead of saying something, you kind of doubt yourself, but that's kind of what an abuser wants you to do is they deceive and all they're wanting is love in all of their actions, which is, I've come so far in the ability to actually say that because when someone is being [00:08:00] abusive, all they're looking for is respect and admiration from what they probably didn't get from their parents.

And so

They try and hide the parts of themselves that they can't even bear to look at so that everyone else around them can give them the feelings of respect, admiration, and love.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Wow, I want to go deeper into that a little

bit later because that's amazing that you're what you've given what you've been through able to say that now it shows like a lot of growth and transformation, which is really beautiful

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: all grace.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Because I imagine Yeah I imagine you know years ago would have been really really difficult to even admit that an abuser is just looking for love and It almost seems like they're trying to like squeeze love out of these situations by forcing people to maybe do what they want and having control on whatever else, as opposed to as a healthy person would do, it's just receiving love that people give to them.

So we'll get deeper into that, but I wanted to kind of continue on the story. So what led your parents to separate and divorce?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. So out of respect for my mom, I'm not going to share everything, but, [00:09:00] um, clearly abuse was probably the biggest thing. And I think for a long time, probably, it took them 15 years of marriage to, to reach a point of separation. But, um, for my mom, I think most of that time she was in denial of the fact that it was abuse and she always thought it was her fault.

so obviously the abuse was probably the biggest thing, but then also, she hasn't told me everything, but, um, she has told me that, um, there was a certain point in time and a couple of things all happened at the same time where, um, a priest asked her to come, see her after confession.

And he asked her about her safety. A family member asked her like, what's going on. You look. You look sick, um, was what they had said. And then my mom got a phone call from someone to tell her about something that they had found out about my dad. So, um, and this someone was like, not part of the community.

It was just, you know, I'll just leave it at that. So, um, those three things, um, as far as I know, I'm sure there's more kind of led to, my mom realizing like, okay, my children are at risk. I'm at risk. And she [00:10:00] thought maybe I'm sure maybe she thought she could continue living on, but the fact that she had children changed it.

So I think the divorce and separation was really about protecting the family.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And that makes sense. And that's the situation where, I know there's like such a nuance conversation that we try to have on this podcast about it, but that's a situation where something needs to happen. There needs to be a split to, for the safety of the spouse and the children.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, it's, unfortunately sometimes healthier for a split than to stay. and there's a really, really great, um, I think it's an article written by the USCCB and it's probably 15 years old now, but it's called when love means leaving. And I think if you're in this kind of situation, you should absolutely read all of it.

or even if you're not, it's, it's very helpful just to kind of know. And, They really lay down the foundation of, why it is, so detrimental to you as a person to keep working with someone who's not working with you, you know, to put it [00:11:00] super lightly. and, um, there are some people that are just as, as much as you want to do all of the work for them, they're just going to be on a different road.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. And I think the severity of the situation is like the most important thing in my mind because it's like, you know, kids are being abused and you're being abused. Like you need I need to get to safety. And I know the church, like the Catholic Church teaches that the goal ultimately would be to heal the family, bring the marriage back

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: we don't live in a utopia, like sometimes that's not possible. Sometimes the person, one of the people are unwilling to change and and all that stuff. but that's always a goal, but it's not always possible. And so that, that in itself kind of presents a really difficult burden for everyone involved. And the way we talk about it too, is like, yes, the separation and the divorce are still difficult and perhaps even traumatic for the children and the parents in that situation. Um, But so is living in the midst of that severe, you know, abuse and everything like that. And so it's kind of, in some [00:12:00] ways I don't really like talking about like this, but it's like the lesser of two evils, so to

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Um, and it becomes like just a necessity. And so in that situation, it's really just a legal maneuver for protection and, and it's the appropriate thing to do. And for everyone's context, uh, researchers say that a little less than 30 percent of divorces fall into this category of what they call high conflict, where there's abuse, there's violence, there's maybe a threat of death, things like that. Um, so it is substantial. There's a lot of divorces like this. The other 70, just in case everyone isn't aware is, um, what's called low conflict where there could be real problems at home in the marriage, but the children aren't in danger necessarily. Um, doesn't mean that things are good at home, but to the children, things seem fine and more or less they are safe.

Even if they're not being given the love and. the attention that they deserve. Um, but we're talking about that 30 percent today, which is really important. We don't talk about it a lot on this podcast, um, to dedicate a whole episode to it.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Yeah. I think not like it's really not talked about, very much at all. Um, like in my research in certain [00:13:00] years in the past few years, um, of just trying to find Catholic resources for people who, are living in abuse, especially for children who have been in abuse, like there's almost nothing out there.

so it can be really hard, which is, When you just have to go to other things, um, such as like one of the things that gave me the most amount of hope was theology of the body. like, yeah, it's, it is about, you know, marriage and sex, but also it's about the human person. And I think that was kind of like the defining moment for me of, I think I'm being abused because like, In the beginning, he's talking about identity and personhood and like, I'm not, I'm not being treated like that.

Oh, and then it kind of created like a deeper dive into theology. and although I already had the foundation of Catholicism, throughout childhood, it just created this like spiral upwards effect almost of like trying to reach, okay, where, where is this light coming from? If that makes sense.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: absolutely. No, that's beautiful. I want to go deeper into that a little bit later, but just for everyone who maybe isn't aware, theology of the body was a series of [00:14:00] lectures basically that Pope John Paul II gave years back in It was basically a study of God through the body. And it's really just a study of like, it's looking at, um, what we're made for, um, looking at our bodies and what that tells us about kind of love and sexuality and how we ought to act and love others.

And so one of the kind of founding philosophical principles is called the personalistic norm. And I forget if he expounded on it in Theology of the Body or elsewhere, I think it was maybe more of like a love and responsibility thing that John Paul II wrote as a priest in Poland. And he said that The only adequate response to the human person is love. Another way to say that it's like we're all made for love and we deserve to be loved and What I hear you saying Emma is like you realize you weren't being loved. In fact, the it was very much so the opposite of love

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. And what's so interesting is when you dive even deeper into that statement itself is, my dad wasn't being loved because we were enabling him to abuse us. And that's not love. That's what they talk about in, um, love means leaving is how enabling completely inappropriate or abusive [00:15:00] behavior is the opposite of love because you were allowing them to fall darker and darker and into what farther from God ultimately.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: No, I couldn't agree more. And I think like, I'm curious to get your opinion on this. Why do people shy away from this? Especially in religious circles so much, because I think, and my guess would be, and I'll just throw this out there and I would love to hear if you think differently, it's totally fine. my guess is that people, yeah, maybe they. Are afraid of, I don't know, everyone calling every situation abuse and therefore like will become even more rampant. I don't know. I don't know what the motivation is, but it seems like they try to treat divorce as like this label or this experience that's the same in every situation and there's no like nuance to it.

And there certainly is nuance. That's what I've learned doing this work for years now. Like I mentioned with the broad definition of like the low conflict versus high conflict, like we can't pretend the high conflict doesn't exist. It does exist. so I don't know, I'm curious why, why do people often turn a blind eye to this?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I think. In religious settings, there's a few [00:16:00] different things. I think the biggest one is that we don't want to judge people. You know, we're not supposed to judge wrongly, um, but there is a right type of judgment. And so I think you have to find that balance. Um, I think another thing is you don't want to ruin someone's reputation.

That's like the, the sin of detraction, which keeps a lot of victims silent. Like it kept me silent for a very long time. because you know, don't, talk about. What they did to you. That's, that's their sin, but you're not pointing the finger saying like, look at their sin. You're saying, look at how I was abused.

You know, if that makes sense. and so I think we are really scared to point out other people's sins. Even if it ultimately would create safety, or for the abuser, maybe they would have a better conversion. Um, sometimes, you know, they do have to face the consequences, but it's, it's so hard because it's, it's embarrassing if you're wrong and it's, um, shameful for everyone involved.

And so it's something that's so delicate, but ultimately, [00:17:00] you know, If Christ were walking by, he would point his finger right at it and say, no, like this is wrong. You know, just like he does with the

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: No, that's a great point. And I think it's um, it's such a false like, like you said well before it's like such a false form of like love and respect and whatever else, whatever other word we throw with it to allow someone to continue doing something that's harming others. Like we need to stop them,

you know, and a lot of times, um, Like you said, there's like the whole bystander effect where we maybe expect someone else to do something or say something. Um, we, you know, so we kind of give ourselves a pass. there's a famous case in New York years ago where there were a bunch of people, if you guys aren't familiar, there's a bunch of people, um, who essentially witnessed a murder, a woman, I think being stabbed and no one did anything about it. No one yelled, no one called the police.

No one really Did I think, cause they all expected, if I'm getting the story right, someone else to do something. And so it really does. I think there's that component of it too, that, it's really uncomfortable. Like it would be really [00:18:00] uncomfortable to see, you know, maybe you're at a restaurant and someone like, you know, hit their kid and not just like. Appropriate discipline way, which I don't think you hit your kid at all, but you know what I'm saying? Like, and that may be speaking sternly to them. So they would like sit down and stop acting out or whatever, but like actually hurting them. And I don't know that. I think people kind of shy away from that because it takes sticking out your neck and kind of becoming a different type of person who just speaks up and stops bad things from

happening.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: And I think it also, you know, goes back to what I was saying earlier with like the deceit where you aren't sure if what you're seeing is actually what you're seeing. Um, especially since it's never, as bad at home as it is in public, if that makes sense. So like, You know, at home, like physical assaults were, were not common, you know, every few months maybe.

And they were, like I said, like I thought gunpoints, cigarette burns, that kind of thing. Like that's not what we were having at home, but we were still having abuse. So in public,

Even though, um, like [00:19:00] the way we were being talked to and the tone and the aggressive, uh, of disciplining that could just be like, Oh, maybe, maybe he's just having a bad day.

You know, maybe it's just maybe this is the 15th time that that kid has like, you know, asked for whatever. and so I, I think when you do see something, It's, you know, maybe you don't have to speak up right away, but I think, you know, just keeping a close eye and seeing like, what are the patterns that I'm seeing here?

Because, you know, you don't have to jump at things, but you do have to kind of pray about it and recognize like, okay, where's the pattern? What am I seeing? Are there yellow flags or red flags? You know?

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. Yeah. No, fair enough. And I think the people closest closer to the situation often can, you know, better keep a good eye on it. Like family, friends or relatives or things like that, as opposed to, I know the example I gave wasn't a very good one of being at a restaurant and observing like just one instance of it.

Cause I think you're right. The, the, the patterns are important. Right. The, the patterns are important. And I, let's go deeper into that if it's okay. Okay. [00:20:00] So. Again, I mentioned these kind of two camps that I've observed when it comes to like family dysfunction, and the one is calling Nothing Abuse, and the opposite one is calling Everything Abuse. So I'm curious, like what you've learned over the years, like how do you decipher between the two? Like what, what's just bad behavior compared to abuse? Like how, how do we draw? Is there a line to draw? How could we draw that

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: It's a tricky

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: That's such a hard question. But, um, I think anything that this is a quote that's I'm, that I'm paraphrasing from Pope John Paul II. It's anything that does violence to the essence of the human being. So, for example, like, I'm not going to share that much detail, but I will share this because this was probably one of the biggest turning moments for me was my dad, just for this example, um, you know, I didn't set the table the way he wanted me to and it escalated into this fight where he told me that I'm going to die alone and that I'm not enough.

And so, um, That is violence to the essence of [00:21:00] my person, right? so, you know, I think a lot of people don't recognize that, um, they don't recognize verbal abuse. I think that's, that's the biggest one. Physical abuse, obviously, you know, when someone is like aggressively grabbing you or maybe like disciplining you where it's, you know, I like to say kind of like spanking and hitting are not that far apart.

And in the eyes of a child, you can't differentiate between the two. And so, like, I think you do know in your gut, though, so, physical abuse you usually know in your gut, but it's the verbal, psychological abuse that's more, like, hard to draw a line in because, you know, you can tell someone, like, I don't like the way you did that, or, like, you need to be better in this, but when you're telling someone, like, You, as a whole, are just completely not enough, or completely wrong in the way that you're existing.

That, you know, that is abusive. Um, and so, um, maybe that's not the best definition. I haven't really thought about defining it. But, um, [00:22:00] yeah, I, I like clinging on to John Paul II's words there.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. Okay. No, thank you. And I think that's, this is some, maybe we all could, um, yeah, come to some sort of consensus on it or find a good solution to this. I think it's some sort of a definition. Cause like you said, um, it's really, it's a difficult question. I've wrestled with this for a long

time. Cause you know, obviously these situations are coming up from time to time that, you know, speak with parents or young people or, you know, young adults. and, um, yeah. Yeah, it's definitely tricky. One of the things I would add that when I was like researching this a little bit, I think it's important to look at the severity of the action. Um, I think it's important to look at the frequency of it as well. And then I think it's important to look at like the impact it's having on the person.

That's kind of what I've come to. It's not a fully formed like framework, but

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: No, I really like that though. That's, that's really good, um, that's really good insight.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: okay. Yeah. I, I be curious because I know, um, What you mentioned in your article for the website was like, you've experienced kind of all levels of abuse, right? are you comfortable talking, we don't have to give specific examples. Are you comfortable talking about the [00:23:00] Um, kind of the physical and the sexual component of, or is that something you don't want to really touch on

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, I mean,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: don't need to go into any details because the, the reason I'm bringing this up is because I think it's important for people to know that we're not just talking about like one instance of, you know, your dad saying that to you at the table, which is horrible and I'm so

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: it's okay.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Um, but this, this is deeply rooted.

So if you're not comfortable with it, totally fine. Um, I just wanted to really paint a picture for people who might still be listening to us and saying like, nah, I don't really buy this whole

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I don't want to share too much detail just in case any of my siblings or anything come across this, but, um, one thing, yeah, finding, finding the, right words for describing abuse while being gentle is hard. but, um, with the physical abuse, um, You know, it could be something like, um, happening every few months, really not that often you'd think, but, um, just stinking or whipping with a belt that would be so aggressive that like, you couldn't sit down for a few days, um, but you are [00:24:00] disciplined, like you think it's your fault.

So, yeah, I think that's where it gets hard is it's discipline, but it's not properly ordered. It's coming from a place of anger and hatred. And it's so aggressive that it's, it's not just, making the child recognize, Oh, okay. I did something wrong. It's recognizing, or it's, it's the child making them think that it's okay to, to treat me like this.

so yeah, sorry. That's not a very good definition, but

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: No, no, no, no. That's helpful. And I don't mean to put you on the spot. The

reason I'm kind of pushing there a little bit is because I think it's like helpful for people, especially if someone finds himself in that specific situation they'd be able to kind of draw the line between like, Oh, I'm a saying this and I'm experiencing this.

Maybe that's the

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I guess what I would say then is if there is someone out there who is experiencing, um, physical aggressiveness at home, Are you feeling like, you know, if you're being like spanked, for example, I mean, obviously whoever's listening to this probably is way too old to be being spanked. So if you are, that's, you know, [00:25:00] that's a sign right there.

Um, but you know, it's, I personally don't believe in spanking because of my past, but I think If it's coming from a place of like, they are just knee jerking their reaction, and they are like, maybe stripping you down naked while they do that, like, that's, that's another sign of abuse. Um, if, you know, it's so aggressive that it's like, physically hurting for a long time, that's, that's another sign.

Um, so like, these things, like these

 Physical assaults might not leave any marks, but they're still brutal. And like, it also can be, the fear of like, maybe they'll change their stance and you know, they can hit me if they want to. Um, that's another thing is like, it's a control thing.

So, you know, it's like, they'll do one thing just once. And forever, you know, that can happen again.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay. Yeah. Great. I know it's kind of menacing and that makes a lot of sense. Okay. Well, thank you. And again, I know, um, both of us want to kind of get to put [00:26:00] language to this for people. So I'm excited to hear your future work and the book you're going to come out with, because I think it's really needed back a bit to your story. how old were you or how old are you now? And how old were you when your parents separated

and divorced?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: so I'm 24 now. I was 14 when they initially separated.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay. Yeah. And, um, definitely tender years, difficult years, and it sounds like everything your earliest memories. Do you remember things ever being kind of stable and good at home? Or was it always kind of this really tumultuous

time for you

guys?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: it was always hard. but I think that's also, you know, the fact that there were some good times makes you think that, okay, maybe we're not living in abuse because we're also having good days and like, You know, while laughing with each other.

But, um, there was always like a holding of the breath, if that makes sense, um, you know, my mom has spoken of how every family outing at the end of it, someone's in the back of the car crying cause they know they're about to get, uh, in trouble when they get home. Um, my [00:27:00] grandma once told me that, um, she came over for dinner and one of the kids made a joke and nobody laughed.

And we all kind of like looked at each other, held our breath. And then my dad laughed and then we kind of took a breath and all laughed at the same time. It was like, we all needed permission to laugh. so even though, it wasn't all of the time and there were good times and we all had, we have some family memories and traditions and stuff like that.

It was all with a sense of control.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay, yeah. The couple signs that You taught me there was like, there's seemed to be a lack of freedom. And then also kind of this feeling of like walking on eggshells, like needing to tiptoe and be very, very careful to not, you know, offend your dad and kind of disrupt the some level of peace that you guys had at home.

So that, that makes sense. I'm curious, how, how did you learn about the separation, the divorce yourself? And what was your reaction to it?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, so, they did something kind of interesting, at least it's interesting to me now, So our parish priest who helped my mom through this whole situation, God bless him, [00:28:00] um, he came over and we all sat down in the living room and he told us, you know, your parents love you very much, but they have decided to separate and your dad is going to move out for a few months.

We're going to see how it goes and then maybe he'll move back. Maybe they, and. At the time, I know my brother and I have talked about this at length, um, you know, we found it really damaging. Like, why is it someone else that's telling us this? Now, we realize that was for safety purposes, because You know, if my mom had started to talk, my dad probably would have talked over her, or it could have ended up being an abusive situation, or my dad could have lied and manipulated what she did outside of the home and kind of told lies to the whole community, including, you know, us kids.

And so that priest was there ultimately to kind of buffer the situation. Um, so that's, that's kind of all how it went down. And then, um, they separated, and the day of, I knew like, no, they're, they're not going to get back together. Uh, this is going [00:29:00] to be forever. Um, and I had actually started praying that they would separate because I felt so not at ease.

Um,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Because yeah, it was, it was not very good. So, um, they separated and then eventually it ended up being a lengthy, lengthy, lengthy divorce and then an annulment.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay. All right. And Thank you for sharing all that. I just want to make a side note, I'm glad that you and your brother have talked about this stuff. I think a lot of siblings and families don't talk about it after the fact, which is really beautiful. I know we're going to get into

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: of been helpful in healing for you, but um, it sounds like that's been really good. And then the other thing I think it can often, maybe not always, but it can often be a sign of like a high conflict, family, marriage, divorce, the children are like, praying and asking for the divorce to

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Um, that that's kind of what I've noticed in these situations that I'm aware of. I'm like, okay, if the kids are like, can be like rare situations where maybe the kids like have friends who got divorced and they maybe have some sort of an influence where they're kind of [00:30:00] taking that and kind of projecting on to their family, even though it's not an appropriate response for that situation.

Again, I'm talking like low conflict where this abuse and stuff isn't happening. by and large, I've seen that if a kid's like praying and desiring and thinking about it a lot, um, it seems to me that it is a sign often that it's a high conflict

situation. Have you

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah, definitely. Um, I mean, and I didn't know anyone that had been divorced. And in fact, like I remember the night that I started praying that like I was horrified at myself for praying that, but I was also just so scared. and you know, I knew like, wow, we're gonna, we're going to be really judged and like, we're going to be, outcasts if this happens, but like, I'll feel safer.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, definitely the case.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Wow. Man, I'm so sorry. You went through so much. Um, what was life like for you The separation, the divorce. So like during, you know, from that day on till the legal proceedings stopped. And I know you mentioned the annulment too, which we can get into, but yeah, I'm curious, [00:31:00] what did life look

like for you?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Um, I think the first

 six months or so, I was just so depressed. you know, I had no energy. I couldn't, I could hardly do anything at all. and then about six months in on the feast of St. Teresa of Lisieux, um, my little tiny Catholic school, um, had a relic of hers and we had like a little mass and procession and I just reached out to God and I asked him for a sign.

Um, and he, He came through, I asked for a sign. Um, I, I'll, I'll just share the whole story. So, um, I was, you know, really struggling with the idea of marriage. And I kind of was thinking like, it's not real, like it never is going to work out for anybody. and I kind of remember looking up at the statue of St.

Jerez and St. And the Blessed Virgin right next to each other with this tiny little relic below them. And I just prayed, God, if I can just grow up and have a Wonderful and beautiful marriage. Please send me roses today. And, I'm gonna cry, uh, later that day, my [00:32:00] mom gave me like two dozen roses, so. Yeah, so, um,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: What a story.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, really fun story there.

And, you know, I'm really careful with signs. That's the only time I've ever asked for a sign in my life. Um, but I think it came from that childlike place in my heart that was just begging for life. so, after that I, um, immediately went downstairs and grabbed all the books on marriage I could find, which is how I found Theology of the Body, because I just kind of went through the searching period of like, okay, what is marriage?

I started observing all of the families at church, like, okay, they clearly are in love and they have like a thousand children. How are they making that work? Like, yeah. So I just kind of took a deep dive. And, I. You know, was still being abused and still extremely depressed and anxious, struggling with eating problems.

but I clung to God and I just, I placed myself at the foot of the cross and I would use my imagination to, [00:33:00] just see all of these wounds that I had on my body, all these thorns and I'd pluck a thorn in my imagination and place it at the foot of the cross and it would sprout into a flower. And that's just those little childlike prayers.

brought me through. And so, I got to be very close friends with, um, these two sisters who have an amazing family. And I spent a lot of time with my friends, um, just kind of enjoying life as a teenager, but also, um, kind of escaping my own home. Escaping the abuse, escaping my own feelings and observing how a good Catholic family, lives.

So that's kind of what life looked like for me. I was just kind of mostly avoiding all of my pain, you know, watching a lot of movies. You know, wasn't praying often. Like I wasn't up in my room, like scrolling through a Bible all the time. But, um, you know, I covered my, I did cover my walls with chalk and wrote a bunch of Bible verses that would help me through my day and, um, I would just.

You know, trying to escape through either the Word of [00:34:00] God, love of Mary, love of God the Father, which I discovered, and, um, also, you know, some volleyball or movies and just little things. And, um, it did end up, you know, not serving me super well since I was avoiding quite a bit. and I ended up, you know, going into therapy probably about seven years later, um, which was so good.

I definitely wish I had done that sooner. But, yeah, I just kind of hid behind the bubbly personality that I have, trying to escape, but also finding Christ in the darkness.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay. You went through a lot that during that time. I'm curious. about a freshman in high school when you like devoured all these books on

marriage or at least like

started looking into that. That's

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, I was. Yeah. I think some of those books were a little bit too over my head at the time, but, um, yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Some of them are still

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, it kept me searching.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Fair, fair. No, beautiful. Well, I love it. It's a good desire because I felt the same. Like when my parents split and everything came to life for us, it was [00:35:00] like, my goodness, I will never get married.

It's like, this is where love and marriage leads. Like I want nothing to do

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Exactly.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And, thankfully I learned that it doesn't always lead there.

It could actually lead to a very different, better place. So I know we're going to get into that too, but thanks for sharing all that. I'm curious. I think I know the answer to this, but I want to hear you, what you'd have to say, like, when did you realize that the dysfunction and the divorce were affecting you negatively? Because for context, some people, it takes

years, really, like truly years, years, years. It seems like you were on top of that right away. Or did

I read that wrong?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yes and no. I think, it was definitely pretty immediate, but I think I didn't recognize the full severity of everything until, probably my senior year of high school when, um, I was officially. Like out of custody with my dad. Um, so yeah, I think it took me a while. And even today I'm still discovering things about myself, like just the dark places where there's so much hurt where I'm like, Oh, Oh goodness.

I have to dive deeper into that. you know, I think you [00:36:00] have so many wounds that you don't even recognize until you're in another, either a similar situation or just like life changes and you're just kind of like, Oh, That's, that's hurting. Where's that coming from? You know? Um, so, yeah, I recognized it right away, but certainly not completely.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: No, I, I think it, you said that well, that brokenness can surface in your life in different ways. And as you get into new chapters, like you said, it's like, whether you're beginning to date and get into like serious relationships, or maybe you're engaged or you're married or you're a parent for the first time, like all those different like transitions in life, I've realized like can bring up new stuff.

And you're like, wow, I thought that was way in

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And you're like,

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: not so much. So we have to kind of revisit and deal with it. And I think there's, um, Kind of a physical analogy to it as well. I know you're a nurse and, you know, different injuries can like represent themselves if you're like doing a certain movement or a new exercise or starting to climb mountains.

And you hadn't done that before. I remember, um, I played hockey growing up and, uh, I remember after like not skating for a while, getting back in [00:37:00] the ice and like skating, I'm like, I did not even realize I had muscles in those

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: and they're like super sore and hurt. So I think, uh, a lot of times that could happen when we, you know, that brokenness resurfaces because of, you know, the new triggers, a new environment in our

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been thinking a lot about Original Sin recently and it's just, it's always with us. It doesn't leave.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. It's super

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, it is.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Um, you already mentioned depression and some kind of struggles with eating. Um, I'm curious. Yeah. What other emotional problems have you experienced and what about bad habits? Who may bail through those two

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh, yeah. Um, well, I think, one of the biggest bad habits that I actually didn't recognize at the time was the eating problem, um, where I would be starving myself and then just binge eating, usually not good food for, not good foods for me. I, yeah, I didn't recognize that until I was, like, out of it.

and

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: things was a big one. Just, like, trying to numb the pain with, like, a TV show that was just corny and stupid. [00:38:00] yeah, I, um, I think one of the big things was just the fear of abandonment that came to, um, like, I've recognized this, at least I recognized it in college drastically when I realized, like, I'll perceive someone to be in a bad mood.

I'll assume it's about me and then. I'm like, okay, I guess, I guess our friendship is over, but like, they just fail the test or something. Like, and then, you know, I'll give myself some space from them. And then they're kind of like, where have you been? I'm like, I thought we weren't friends anymore. You know, like, um, it's definitely, like a part of my character that I have to work through.

Um, and. Yeah, I think that's, I wouldn't call that a habit, but you know, it's, you know, it's um, a wound that's there. I think a lot of us children of divorce have that fear of abandonment for sure.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to dig a little bit deeper into that, into like relationships, struggles. Um, but yeah, I'm curious if there, was there any, anything else on like the emotional end that you

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah. Yeah. A lot of anxiety and depression, which I, you know, that wasn't actually diagnosed cause I was never with a therapist, but, um, it [00:39:00] was, you know, just this fog over me that was so like, I couldn't see through anything. And I just had this. overwhelming sadness, um, that, you know, it helped me cling to Christ, but it was very powerful.

And I think that another part of it was that I didn't really talk about it to anybody. And no one really asked me about how I was doing because I did have this, like, I do have this personality that I'm very outgoing and bubbly, but I was kind of hiding behind that. And so people assumed I was okay. And so I allowed myself to internally just keep getting more and more depressed and so anxious about everything.

And, Self image became a huge, huge problem for me, not just because of the divorce, but because of things that my dad was saying to me. And, it was, you know, probably, those were probably the biggest emotional problems.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: No, that makes so much sense. Thanks for sharing so, so openly, so vulnerably. One of the experiences we've kind of heard a lot about is When you begin feeling anxiety or depression, um, it can be hard to put words to it. You don't really know exactly what you're going

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: [00:40:00] Yes.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And I experienced that.

I was talking with a friend recently. We were actually, we worked together with Eversword and she was saying the same thing, uh, with, with her too. She was like experienced it for months and just didn't really know like what was going on. And it was the same for me like months. And I just, Yeah, I don't even know what I thought, but it was like pretty debilitating. so, so I think that could be a common experience. So if anyone listening right now is experiencing that, you know, maybe try to research a little bit more. Like, what are the symptoms? What are the signs? Like, what does it look like to feel depressed or anxious? So you can hopefully put some language to it.

Cause that is an immensely

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, it is. It, that's so accurate though, that it is almost impossible to describe when you're in it because like, You're almost so tired that you can't even find words, you know, I think recognizing it early on in your life will help you find it when it resurfaces, too.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: So good. Yeah. And I agree. It's been a lot easier, like you said, to recognize it now, um, for me. So another thing I just want to say, I, I use sports and like movie stories, um, to cope

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: That's interesting. I just couldn't relate [00:41:00] with you on that. Um, I, we, my siblings and I played different sports growing up, but it was definitely a kind of a helpful outlet.

And I think in some ways, I think I just want to touch on this because I think You know, I think there's some misunderstanding around this. I think that, um, those are used as a constant way to escape and never deal with your brokenness, I think that's unhealthy and wrong. Um, but if they're used as like a temporary breather, a temporary way to like kind of have a break to kind of keep your sanity, um, I think it's actually a really good and helpful thing.

Like it's better than sleeping around doing drugs. been drinking, like all that stuff. So, so I think there's something to be said about that. So I wouldn't look back at your story and be like, Oh, you played too much volleyball. And I know you're not saying I love, um, but, uh, but I think, I think there's something like that's actually good and healthy that you were able to kind of have an outlet in that.

But, um, but yeah, I'm curious if you have anything to add to that and if there was any other bad habits that kind of became a

crutch.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: you know, I'm thinking back on it, like, I feel like I didn't have any, like, truly bad habits other than, like, the eating. I think that was probably, like, a habit, [00:42:00] and, I honestly, like, I dove into painting, I would paint all the time. or I would be scrolling on Pinterest and designing my future house, like, just kind of

escaping mentally.

So, um, yeah, luckily I never fell into anything, you know, truly detrimental, to my soul, which I'm so grateful for. And I think it's partly because, um, I ended up We ended up moving into my grandma's house and she's someone who I genuinely liken to Mother Teresa. So imagine living with Mother Teresa when you're going through your biggest pains, like you can't go to bad habits.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love it. Their holiness just like spills over.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: It

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: good. Awesome. well, no, I'm glad that's such a grace and such. Like you were spared a lot,

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: beautiful. And I think it does speak to your character as well. Um, about relationship struggles? How have you struggled in relationships, especially romantic relationships?

You mentioned a little bit about kind of fearing abandonment and maybe Bailing out is maybe the word that we use of like kind of sabotaging and being like, Oh no, I'm out. I'm, this isn't going to work, but yeah. How have you struggled in [00:43:00] relationships?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: So I think the biggest one is just the, the fear of abandonment, which like, you know, I'm still working with my therapist through this where like, logically I know we're still friends. I know that they're not leaving, but internally I have this, like, I keep describing it as like a firework that's been lit and it's not going to go off.

Um, and so I'm constantly in fear of abandonment. Okay, like I didn't do XYZ. I was in a bad mood at this time. Like, okay, maybe this time will be the time where they're gonna leave. and so that's something that I've had to work through. Um, still am. It's still, you know, a problem. But, it's

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, I started going to therapy because, um, that one story with in college with my friend was kind of like an eye opener of like, Oh, Oh dear. Um, but then also just like with my now husband, when we were dating, I remember like we would get into like, you know, a normal boyfriend, girlfriend argument of whatever kind.

And I would just be so like timid and scared the whole [00:44:00] time and kind of thought like every fight was always about me. Every fight was going to And the relationship, which I think kind of goes back to when we were told about the divorce, we weren't given a reason at all. it was kind of like, you guys probably know why, um, but there was no reason given.

And so that kind of, at least in me, I don't know about my five siblings, but at least in me, it's made me think, okay, every fight could end in a divorce. Which, you know, that's not true. That's not how it goes. Everybody has fights. so, you know, when I was dating my husband, that's kind of when I realized like, Oh, okay.

I'm like not processing these things well. And I would also kind of like try and force the fight to end well in that moment. I'm like, all right, no, we got to fix this right now or else like, you know, you're going to think, you know, you're going to change your mind about me when you're by yourself processing.

That kind of thing. So, that was definitely a big problem.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: The conflict stuff is really hard for people. I

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I've struggled with it and gotten better over the years and, [00:45:00] but at times it's all kind of gone through seasons of like not handling it as well. but yeah, no, it's, it's really, it's really hard. Cause I remember Layla Miller, the author who wrote, uh, the primal loss book or edited it with, where it features a bunch of stories of children of divorce. She put words to it. She said that there's this like kind of belief that we carry around that conflict leads to permanent separation.

Conflict leads to permanent saturation. And so like, and you just said it really well in your own words. yeah. And I think like, if we think that, then, you know, like you said, we'd want to run from any sort of conflict or, you know, control it or whatever.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Especially if you're in a relationship with someone who likes to process things internally, like my husband's very logical, which I absolutely adore about him, but like at first it was so hard for me to recognize. And sometimes it still is that like, okay, even though they're thinking thoughts to themselves, like they, You know, they're not thinking like, Oh, I got to get out of here, you know?

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. Yeah. No. I remember reading, um, research where, it was, uh, the book from, uh, UC Berkeley, the [00:46:00] unexpected legacy of divorce. And she was telling a story Judith Wallerstein who studied children of torture 25 years. She's telling a story about a woman who, Um, she had a really like pleasant relationship with her boyfriend.

They ended up getting engaged, getting married. And within marriage, I don't know how long, definitely within the first year, they had like their first big fight. Like they maybe had some spats here or there, but this is like the first big fight. And her husband like needed to cool off. So he left and, um, kind of went for a walk or did something.

And so she was just left at home kind of sitting there and just being like, man, I should call a lawyer.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: this is it. Like maybe we're going to divorce. And then, you know, her husband who I think had come from an intact family, like healthy family, you know, eventually came home once kind of. The temperature had cooled and he was, you know, she told him something to that level and he's like, what? Like, no, I was not thinking that at all. I was, you know, just, I needed some space. I needed to cool off. I wanted to resolve this with you and get to the bottom of it. But it's, it's wild. That could be like such a strong knee jerk reaction that we feel so strongly that we think everyone else is thinking it

too.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, It's so great that you have this podcast for us to talk about it [00:47:00] too, because like, it's so common for kids of divorce to just assume like every fight is just, that's it. and I think, yeah, that's,

that's such a good story. Cause it's so accurate.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, you know, and it can feel so lethal to like when going into conflict. I remember for the longest time I would just like run from it and

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: and just try to be so diplomatic. And, and I kind of became known for that among my friends of being like kind of the diplomat among us wanting to like make things right and make sure everyone was like good and there wasn't any. Problems between us. but then like in romantic relationships, it's like, I can't really avoid this conflict stuff. , it's like, it, it's not really possible. Like eventually, like we're gonna disagree

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And so that became like, that was a huge source of anxiety for me and I didn't really know how to handle it.

I handled it really

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Mm hmm.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: especially within marriage. And gosh. Yeah, I just didn't know what I was doing, so we got some therapy and it was really helpful to kind of learn some tactics to deal with that, which we've done separate episodes on, um, but also just trying to like make sure that the [00:48:00] foundation is strong, that things are healthy so that, um, the majority of conflicts are reduced or at least the temperature isn't as high when, when they do

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. And I think that that's a really good point that like, you know, you, it's definitely a good thing to get marriage counseling for, um, just, just to talk about how to have an appropriate conversation when there's just even a small disagreement. just because, you know, we do, at least the children of divorce do have such a high tendency to make everything go all the way up here when really it's just right down here.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. That's a good way to say, you know, we think it's at a 10 when it's really like a four or something for, for everyone else. Yeah, totally been there. Um, Thanks for sharing so vulnerably. I could talk with you forever. I want to keep moving.

That's okay. I was curious. Um, when did you, you, you touched on this a little bit, but when did you decide to ask for help and what's been maybe the most helpful and healing and transformative, thing that has helped you become a better, a stronger you?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. So I think, um, the first,

I'm going to describe the first time as the time I reached out to God. That was probably the biggest [00:49:00] thing. Um, even though that wasn't towards a person, I think that was internally the biggest thing for me was to just put my hand out to God and say, okay, where are you? Um, and then after that, it was in small doses with my mom, just kind of telling her like what was happening over at dad's house and, she brought me to our parish priest who was So good.

I can't even just describe how kind he was to me. so that was kind of like the biggest point where I was saying I need help. But I think what was so great about it was that, in small doses with my mom, who I'm comfortable with, she brought help to me through the priest. and, um, I didn't really ask for a lot of help in specific ways, which today I really regret.

I should have told more people what was going on. but it was more so like asking my aunt, like, Hey, can we go on a walk with your dog this afternoon? And like, that became a habit. so I kind of had like a nice, healthy relationship with someone and it was, that was what I needed at the time. I think, even [00:50:00] though I still kind of regret I should have I should have at least told more people, but, at least I was finding healthy relationships and asking, you know, other friends, like, can I just stay over for dinner?

so, you know, asking for help isn't always saying I need help. Sometimes it's just like, can we hang out for a little bit? And, you know, I don't need to say anything. Can we just hang out? Walk up the hill together in quiet. And then that kind of builds a foundation of trust and, also, a place where if something were to get really, really bad, you can go to, um, and then I think the next time was probably when I started going to therapy in college.

Um, when I realized like, okay, I thought I had healed these wounds by the power of God. Not I had healed them, but the power of God, you know, had healed. And I had so much, love for, the sacrifices that I've given him. I thought that had healed me, but really I, I needed so much more work done. So that was the next big thing was going to therapy, you know, about, um, you know, About seven years post divorce.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: So you would have been

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I was,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: the early

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: [00:51:00] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. It's not, no, it sounds like those are super, have been super helpful for you, which is amazing. Were there any books or podcasts or any other type of content that were really help you helpful for you?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Uh, I have a whole list. at the time I was mostly into books. I didn't really like listen to any podcasts. I wasn't in that area yet, but, um,

I think the first one that I ever read was theology of his and her body by, Jason Everett. That was a big one.

how to find your.

Soulmate Without Losing Your Soul, also Jason Everett, um, anything by Christopher West. And, um, I actually, this is kind of a fun one. So I don't know how I came across this book, but it's called Arms of Love. And it's kind of just like a Christian, like romance novel, which sounds awful. It's so cringey, but it's, it's this really sweet, tender story.

Um, and it kind of like makes you fall in love with, like the idea of dating in a Christian atmosphere. Um, and I read that when I was probably about 13 or 14. [00:52:00] and that one actually like really helped. honestly, all of the encyclicals, I think if you're going through divorce right now, I think all of the encyclicals, especially, um, familiaris consortio and humanae vitae.

So good. because you can really see the definition of marriage and it just shines so much light everywhere. podcasts, you know, I don't, yeah, I don't think I have any podcast recommendations, but I do think that, um, something that can be also really healing is just going out into nature and listening to good music.

not depressing, sad, love story, breakup music. Like, you know, honestly, like turn on Mozart and go take a walk.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Love it. That's great. That was actually like really helpful for me too. I'm

glad you mentioned that when, uh, I remember listening not just to some classical music, but just like it, like, like you said, wholesome music that it can calm you. It can really calm you. I remember watching sunsets was like one of my kind of favorite ways to, To kind of

calm myself and

all that.

So there's a lot of good things in nature. Like you said, um, even I've noticed that with being a dad now, [00:53:00] babies, like change when they're outside. Like they could be like really upset

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yes.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: and then you take them outside and they're like,

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh my god.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: what, what is going on there? So there's something built into us.

I think that it's good to be

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: It is. Yeah, it lifts the soul. It's just you're surrounded by, you know, creation it really is, uplifting. And just, I think just there's something so powerful about fresh air, which I think we take for granted. and probably, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to get all like tree hugger on you, but like, I think honestly, just like, hearing the wind and like, I think it probably regulates your body a little bit.

So just, you know, not to be so granola, but, um, it, it really is so good for you. And like, we are made to be in creation. So do get outside.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, no, I agree. I think Catholics are kind of

hippies in some extent, to some extent, because we love nature. We love all this stuff. So good deal. Um, you already mentioned some of this, but I just want to close the loop on this too. Uh, what, what people helped you

the most?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I think biggest one, [00:54:00] my grandma, you know, living with Mother Teresa over there. my grandma was so good because she was so affirming, um, all the time. And then, there were, a few people, there was a teacher at my school who was also just like very, strong and he, without like out, like reaching out to me and asking if I was okay, just kind of made it known that, like, He was a support system if I ever needed it.

So he was really great. And then, um, my two best friends who I won't name and their whole family who just kind of took me in. Um, I was basically at their house 24 seven. Yeah, those were the best people. And then my godparents as well, who also, um, for a few of the years lived like right down the street from us.

And so, and they still do, they're, they're still within walking distance of my, my grandma's house. So, it was really. Really good to be surrounded by such good people who weren't pressing me to talk about my feelings. Um, and who were just there to support me.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love that. That's an important last point. Um, for everyone listening, who's [00:55:00] maybe trying to help someone from a broken family, what I'm just said, like make a note of that. It's really helpful. Like the principal did to know that someone's there for you when, and if you want to talk, but then it's equally important not to like press someone to like spill their emotions out to you.

So really, really good. Awesome. Powerful lessons. Anything you'd add to that?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, it is important that, you know, you can talk about things, but before you get someone to maybe talk about like if there's a suspect of abuse to just lay the foundation of a solid friendship. or, you know, if you're an authority figure, just solid foundation of, quiet, affirming care, and eventually they will come to you with their problems.

Um, whether or not they actually tell you everything that's happened to them, they will at least feel loved and known. And eventually, like I said earlier, like if things do really get bad, they will come to you. so I think just being a quiet, affirming person is the best.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love that. And [00:56:00] to me, what you just said, like you need, they need to

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yes.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: you

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yes.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And then, and what we've seen when it comes to trust is like, built through. Consistency kind of continually showing up and being there and letting them know that you're like a stable force

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Mm hmm.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Um, and then it's built also through vulnerability.

We've seen, you tend to trust people who are also open with you in an inappropriate way, right? We want it to be appropriate, not like sharing every little detail about our lives, obviously. So those two things, if you're trying to help someone, I think are really, really key to building the trust. So then the, we'll open up to you more.

So yeah, great advice. I love that and helpful for anyone who's trying to help someone from broken family, just kind of backtrack something I said before. Um, the question I was asking for everyone's context was more related to like kind of after the

fact, um, and someone maybe a young person went through their parents divorce, but in the, You know, situation of abuse.

I know we treat that a little bit differently and we'd want to be a little bit more, maybe aggressive with like rushing in and helping as opposed to just being like, Hey, I'm here if you need me. And I'm not going to force you to talk. It's like different [00:57:00] approach,

different scenario.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. I think it's definitely, um, something that, you have to use the right words because, especially young children, they're, they're not going to say the word abuse. I think the word abuse probably didn't even come to my mind until I was, like, in college.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: well,

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: so I think that's a really important note.

It was more of words like uncomfortable, scared, and like uneasy, like gentle words that are describing huge things. Because, you know, like I said, children don't always have these words for like abuse, especially like, You know, if they're, being like sexually abused, you know, just kind of trigger warning, like, you know, they aren't, if they don't have the words for even like body parts or anything like that.

And like, luckily I like, I was not actually like sexually abused physically. It was more in separate ways, which I'm not going to get into the details of, but, um,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: that's fine. Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, like if, if someone doesn't have the words to describe their own body parts or anything, like they're not going to talk to you about it because they don't have the [00:58:00] words to talk to themself about it.

So, you know, if you are going to ask a child or, um, someone if they might be abused, don't really use the word abuse because that's not their definition usually, especially because we don't always like to call ourselves abusers. Victim. and here's another note is that, um, usually if someone's actively calling themselves a victim.

Kind of like loud and proud, almost like that's, that's the abuser. that's a really important note is that, most often abusers are claiming themselves to be the ones that are, that are harmed. so use words like uncomfortable, scared, those are probably the two that I would use, because that kind of opens up the door.

So like, like what makes you uncomfortable? Like, why are you scared?

And then they can kind of describe situations or sometimes if they're really young, drawing out a picture, that kind of thing. So,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. That's good advice. Well, one of my friends, Dr. Julia Sadowski recently read a book, um, on talking to your kids about sex and I haven't read it yet, but I, my wife was telling me a little bit about, an interview that [00:59:00] she had done the Jackie Francois angels podcast. And they were talking about the importance of using like proper body parts.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah. I actually listened to that.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Good. Okay. Yeah. I was like, that's amazing. You guys like are saying the same thing. Yeah. No, it's so good. Cause um, cause I guess she, I forget, you would probably remember better, but she was saying that that can cut down on the likelihood of sexual abuse happening to children if they're able to kind of like tell their parents.

Yeah. They were, you know, touching me in this way and this body part and they know the actual language to use. Is

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think, um, maybe I have like a, um, more out there approach, but I also think that kids should probably know like curse words or bad words at a certain age. Not, you know, not super young,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Sure.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: an abuser, um, isn't going to use bad words. body part language, probably. They're probably going to say like slang.

So I think like you should probably in a very safe and controlled context. Teach your words certain slang, and just say like, if you hear this,

you come tell me and we will be so proud of you, but you need to like walk away or [01:00:00] run away and that's completely up to you and your spouse, obviously, to decide.

But I do think that recognizing that if kids don't have that language, they may not understand that it is bad language.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, okay. That's really good. I hadn't thought of that. That makes a lot of sense, though. Another tactic I've heard is for really difficult and uncomfortable topics. I forget where I heard this from, but, some parents will do this thing where they, like, write, have their kids write down what they're, want to tell them, but they're

afraid to, and then they hand, they hand it to them or write it in a book.

Book or journal or something, they give it to them. And so they have like a conversation through like writing like that. So there's never like this awkwardness of maybe needing to talk about something that was like embarrassing or

shameful, quote unquote, shameful, which hopefully, you know, you can get to a point where you could have those conversations, but especially when the kids younger, it's like, and obviously they would need to be at the point where they could like write and articulate things that way, but it could, uh, it could be really helpful. To I think, um, have some sort of a buffer. I've also heard people say, like, talk about those things when you're on a walk. So you're not facing each other. Cause it could be very intense. Look someone in the [01:01:00] eye and talk about those really like sensitive topics. Um, and the car is similar to, so cause your eyes are facing outward.

You're not looking at each

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, yeah. I think that's important is, because sometimes your emotions are bigger than you when you're a kid. And so, like, Even though you as the adult or the authority figure who is loving and caring might want the child to look at you or you want to look at them, but like, they can't handle that.

and so that was, it was similar with me and my mom. Like, um, I think a lot of the times when I was kind of just like talking with her about what I was going through, it was always like at a Panda Express, like. Outside where no one was really around and, you know, I could just look at my orange chicken, really not talk to her and take a breath in between each bite, you know?

So, little things like that makes such a big difference,

 in, The ability to open up if you feel safe.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: So true. What about therapy? You mentioned you went to therapy. What type of therapy did you go to? And, um, [01:02:00] is there someone you'd recommend like a therapist that you'd say, yeah, they're

awesome. Go to them.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Um, so I, my first therapist was, it was actually like during COVID. And so it was on the phone and they were not actually in the part of the country. I was into, so it was just kind of interesting. I honestly didn't have a super great experience, but it opened up the door. So think it's been.

behavioral therapy, I think, but I'm not entirely sure.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Like more like talk

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, it's been, that's been good. yeah, and then I recently, I, I quit that, uh, right before I got married. And then after I got married I started up again with a different person, in person and that's been so good. And I'm really glad I'm in it now, but I'm sad I didn't start when I was 14.

I probably should have started back then, um, would've saved me probably a lot of trouble. But, Yeah, so, I mean, I'm trying to remain somewhat anonymous, so I won't give a name of a therapist, but I will say that, like, if you can find, like, a Catholic group, um, usually there's a lot of gold nuggets in that group of Catholic therapists, [01:03:00] that, like, all work together in, like, one building.

That's, that's usually what I've found good luck with.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. And thanks for, saying that and totally respect the privacy. Thanks for, uh, walking carefully there. But, um, yeah, no, that makes sense. And yeah, I, I think it's true. Like not all therapists are created

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: not to bash any, but just to recognize that some are a better fit for you and maybe more competent in what they do, just like any

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: So I appreciate you saying that and speaking out about it. Um, did your parents remarry? And if so, I'm curious how that has impacted you.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. So, um, my dad has remarried here. Married first. I think he started dating like before my parents were an old, which was another problem. but, um, I honestly, I've never met her. I don't really know the situation. I've been removed from my dad for about seven years. So, not entirely familiar with that situation.

but my mom just got remarried two weeks ago. So, um, at the time of recording. So, um, she just got remarried and they're, I mean, genuinely perfect for each other. So, um, it's a [01:04:00] blessing. You could just see the hand of God there. And, um, yeah, I'm so grateful.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay. So that's been a

positive experience for you. I know it's not for everyone, um, even if

you're okay. Good to

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm living in a different state and I'm, you know, a mom and married now, but I don't have, I'm not physically close with them. So that is definitely kind of sad, but, um, overall, like, um, it's been so good to watch my family just kind of grow closer to God and find real happiness in life, which has been good.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Beautiful. No, I love it. I love seeing you thriving. It's, it's so good, especially knowing what you've been through. So amazing. Um, the annulment, just want to touch on that briefly. What was that experience like for you? Like, what were the thoughts and emotions that you kind of experienced when that began, when it was going, when it ended all that?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, um, I think the first thought that I had, was, am I not valid? I think that was the biggest thing, and I think, like, what's weird about that is that I had [01:05:00] that thought when the annulment was finalized after, like, two years, so I had known that it was going on, But I didn't really think much of it.

I was so overwhelmed with other things that were going on in life that I was kind of just like, okay, great. Like there, there will eventually be a great enough divide. We can be completely safe eventually. Um, which, you know, with custody battles in the court system, really not, seeing the full picture.

It's, you know, been a problem, but the enormous, at least could create a, A better life for my mom, which I had prayed for. So there was that feeling, but then as soon as the interlude was finalized. It was just kind of like this overwhelming feeling of guilt. Like I had done something wrong. Like our family had been living in a weird sin, which is, you know, a weird, like Catholic guilt thing.

Um, and I think maybe, at first, probably no one really like taught me enough about it. And then eventually, like, I kind of was talking with my grandma and my mom and my aunt, and they kind of like explained everything well enough. But I did [01:06:00] wrestle with that for probably a few weeks, a Feeling like, like maybe I'm completely invalid since my parents marriage was invalid. but you know, if for anyone listening, like if, if your parents, Do get an annulment. That just means that there is a barrier between them that they didn't fully see past or was not, something was not exposed. And, maybe both parties were not aware of it, which is, you know, a problem with people who might be mentally ill.

Like they don't think that they're mentally ill sometimes. so it, it doesn't mean anything is invalid about them or you. It just means that the marriage covenant wasn't taken seriously enough, or that there was a serious barrier cognitively.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Totally. No, and I appreciate you going to that because I know there's other people out there who feel the same. And, yeah, my parents, so they were granted the annulment as well. And it's actually, um, it was appealed, my dad appealed it. And so it's in Rome right now. So it's kind of like this weird

middle ground. Yeah. Interesting. [01:07:00] Yeah. Interesting.

so, you know, the Chicago archdiocese said they were, the marriage wasn't valid, that mean they were never married, I guess, but then it's appealed. So if the, if Rome says that it was valid or I don't, you know, there's different ways that Rome could go about. then they're married again, like, or it was valid. Like it's, it's really a confusing thing. So we're going to put out some content in the future around annulments. And I know this is a specifically Catholic kind of thing. Um, so I know we have people listening who aren't religious or maybe you're evangelical Christian.

So this is kind of a foreign topic for you, but for the Catholic listening, this can be like a weird, foggy. area, um, for those of us, you know, especially the children going through it. And I remember, um, kind of thinking similar things about like legitimacy, like you said, or validness, like, am I illegitimate as a child?

And we, we did some research into this and it's really interesting. Um, there's like the civil side of it and then there's the church side of it. So church law, um, which is called canon law for everyone not familiar. And then there's like civil law. so legitimacy seems to be [01:08:00] more of like a concern on the civil side.

So if you think years back when, Maybe there was a family who had multiple children and maybe the children were born of different mothers and maybe one of them was born out of wedlock and then it comes time for the children to receive like their inheritance, like whether it was land or money or something that we think we haven't been able to trace this to its source, but we think that that was more of like the reason why they were labeling children legitimate and illegitimate because an illegitimate child in that situation wouldn't receive any of that, that wealth. Whereas on the other end, a legitimate child, you know, civilly legitimate child would receive that, um, inheritance. That's what we've inferred so far. So we don't have hard data on that yet, but we do want to look into it deeper. So that's the civil side. That's what seems that where it came about. And then on the church law side, so we consulted different canon lawyers on this.

And, um, maybe, maybe I'll link to the chapter in my book that talks about this, but essentially what it comes down to is like, not much if, if through, um, the process of annulment, it comes to [01:09:00] light that, you know, your parents marriage wasn't valid. Um, it doesn't automatically make you an illegitimate child.

And even if you are quote unquote labeled illegitimate in the eyes of the church, it doesn't really mean anything. Um, it's like, Oh, actually you're, you know, you can't go to like church, you can't go to mass. You can't go to heaven. Like you're doomed. Like, no, of course not. It's like, of course there's, there's no difference when it comes to dignity or worth or value as a person.

None of that is in the eyes of God, in the eyes of the church, you are just as valuable. You're just as loved. You're just as wanted all that stuff. So I think that's important to mention. Um, Another kind of nuance to this too, that even if you, you know, were to quote unquote, be illegitimate, the way the church sees it as like, if your parents like didn't have a valid marriage and that was like clear, then you would quote unquote, be illegitimate.

But, which I hate talking about, but that's just kind of the way that the church talks about it. Um, but if you were in a marriage where it appeared that your parents had a legitimate marriage, it's called a Putative marriage, that they had a [01:10:00] parents actually makes you legitimate because to everyone else, it appeared that it was legitimate, which was certainly

be in your case. Um, and in my case too, it seemed like my parents are married for like 20 something years before they got divorced. And so it was, um, Definitely a case where, um, it was, it appeared legitimate. And so the kid, the children are legitimate. So I know I kind of, um, maybe it's not super clear, but we can link to the chapter, at least an article on this topic for you guys to get you some more answers in case you're wondering about it.

So we'll make a note of that in the show notes. If you guys want to read that chapter from the book, we'll make it free. We'll put it on the blog. Uh, so you guys can get more answers about that. So yeah, kind of a niche Catholic topic, but I wanted to touch on that a little bit. Um, any questions or thoughts

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: No, I think that's good. That was a really good explanation. And it is kind of a really hard and interesting topic to talk about, especially one like you've lived through it. But yeah, I think just reminding people that like, you're never invalid as a human being, like God created you in his image and likeness and that doesn't ever change.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Amen. Yeah. And there's no practical consequences to that. Again, it's like, It's [01:11:00] like, okay, great. Like maybe there's this like label that's thrown around, but like, what, how does that make your life different? It really doesn't. It's more of, I mean, maybe it's just something that you might wrestle with, which I totally get.

And there's a place for that too. So anyway, not to go down that rabbit hole too far, but we haven't really talked a ton about that on the show. So I thought it might be necessary. So thank you for bringing that up. I'm curious. Um, toward the end here now, but I'm curious, what sort of like ongoing or recent challenges have you faced related to, know, navigating your broken family to whatever degree you're comfortable

sharing?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I think, one of the biggest things is the fact that, um, with something like abuse, especially with someone who can act so normal in public, um, there's a level of denial, which can be really hard to deal with. Um, even like some of my own siblings, I think, Part of the problem is that, you know, if my father wanted something or like he wanted a custody change, he would treat them differently.

And then he would kind of attack my mom in court with this custody change. So like in the eyes of them, they're seeing like, Oh, like everything's great. [01:12:00] We're so happy. We're going to Disneyland all the time, but like, really it's. being used and whether or not my dad's actually like thinking that whole process through it is happening that like he's, you know, abusing my mom and bring her back to court every six months and just draining her all the time.

So I think that's a hard part is that not all the kids see it the same way because they're being treated different ways. And so as soon as you, um, the myself on the oldest and then the one directly underneath me, my brother, uh, he and I both recognize that, like, as soon as you recognize. Like the hypocrisy and like the verbal abuse particularly and start standing up for yourself.

That's when things get bad for you. So I think that's probably the biggest piece is that some of my younger siblings still like they, they know that there are problems and they don't like what's happening. And like the youngest particularly I know has stated he's, he's been scared and uncomfortable, but I think that's the hardest part is knowing like there's so much denial, but also like Most of what's [01:13:00] happening is not illegal.

And so the court system doesn't care. and so I think that's been the biggest challenge is just not calling abuse abuse.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Gosh. Breaks my heart. I remember my siblings, like after I kind of aged out of visitation, I remember my siblings going through that and just like painful thing to watch, especially if the parent they're with isn't healthy and there's like, it's toxic and

all that.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: And there are like phases too, where it's like, we can't handle this. We know what's going on. And then like, they'll be treated a really, really nice way. And it's like, Oh, it's all good. It's fine. You know, so it's, it's watching the siblings being flip flopped, probably the hardest part.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: That's the hardest part. Okay. Thanks for sharing. I'm so sorry. the we're always a work in progress. I'm curious how your life is different now you've alluded to different things like you're a mom, you're a wife. That's so beautiful. So yeah, I'm just curious, like contrast for me how life is different and better

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, well, I mean, I think the biggest thing is, you know, I'm not living in abuse, which is, you know, it sounds so, like, crazy to [01:14:00] say that, that that's like a good thing, that should just be happening for everybody, but, like, honestly, I'm just so grateful that God saved me from that. And yeah, I, I went to, um, Franciscan university and got my nursing degree there.

So I'm working as a nurse in the pro life movement, which is really, really great. Um, I'm a wife to an amazing man who I just love. He's my best friend. Um, could go on and on about him. And then I just, um, I have a, a young toddler who is just beautiful and I love her so much and she's just. Absolutely the happiest person you'll ever meet.

and so I'm just, yeah. you know, I don't go every day without having some depression or anxiety. Like, you know, I go through phases like we talked about earlier, like every life changed. It's, there are always going to be these underlying things because these are like the crosses that I've been asked to carry to heaven.

But like, they're not my identity, which is probably the biggest thing. And that's, kind of why I'm writing a book now. Um, it's because we don't want to make our victimhood, our identity, you know, we're [01:15:00] victorious in Christ. And so that's, that's what I'm going to be writing about. Um, hopefully publishing we'll see where it goes, but, um, yeah, no, I'm just

 trying to live the best life that God has for me and discovering him more every day, it's really, really beautiful.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love it. No, it's a beautiful transformation. Like a lot of people, I think it's humbling to remember. And I'm not sure how often you think about this, but I think about it for myself pretty often like the different trajectories that I could have gone on in life. And it's really humbling to think like, Oh my gosh, like I could have been in a really, really bad spot.

It's like such really grateful that I'm not, you know, there. And so it's beautiful that you are where you are. And I know I'm sure there's, like you said, there's hard days and hard times. And I experienced that too. But man, it's a really, I feel so blessed in life now and even with pain and suffering from time to time, it's like, yeah, I have it really good.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, I think we are so blessed and there's something, to speak of there where like it gives us so much compassion for people who went in a path of life that we easily could see ourselves going into, You know, like [01:16:00] just anyone, the father wound is so common and like, you know, we see it so often, especially just with a lot of, young women nowadays, I think, like I know the whatever podcast is really popular right now.

And like, honestly, like

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I have so much compassion for everyone on that show, because I know if I didn't have God in my life, I would be on that podcast. So instead of this one, which is great, you know, like praise,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: We're a

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, praise God. But, um, yeah, I think it allows us to have insane compassion for people who suffer.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Amen. And Going back to what you said earlier, you said, you know, and abusers just want

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yes.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Would you elaborate on that a little bit more? Like what that's first, like, again, I'm just, my mind's kind of blown that you going through what you've been through are able to say that today.

That's like a clear sign, like I said

before, like transformation and growth and healing, which is beautiful. But yeah, elaborate

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. I could, I could say so much. but it's. It's so simple. [01:17:00] we are all people made in the image and likeness of God. And so as a reflection of God, we want to reflect love back to him and we want to receive his love. And so that's designed in us, that is what it means to be a person. And so abusers, and I'm going to use that umbrella term of abusers because oftentimes, you know, we've got like all the personality disorders, which we can get, you know, like cluster B is something that, um, Christopher Rufo talks about right now.

So I'll just talk, I'll mention that. So cluster B is, um, histrionic, borderline, narcissistic, and antisocial combined. So that's, um, Christopher Rufo talks about us being in a cluster B society right now. And, that's kind of like the biggest thing we see. We see it a lot in like politics, for example, like gaslighting, manipulating that kind of thing.

So, what happens, and I've looked somewhat deeply into this is that usually there's a deprivation of Love early on in childhood, like before the age of reason. And Jordan Peterson talks about this a ton too. Like [01:18:00] he talks about narcissism a lot. and, you know, ultimately like we are all narcissists or we are all abusers in the sense that like we do sin, we might, you know, snap at somebody.

We might be rude, that kind of thing. But someone who's abusive. They were deprived of so much love that they can't imagine being loved or loving themself. And so they just, they can't bear to look at themself. And so what they do is they try and make other people love them the way they wanted to be loved.

and they try and force that out of you. And so like, if you don't, conform to the idea that they have of what you should be, They're going to grasp at it and take it away from you. That feeling only comes from the desire to be loved, known, and heard. And what's so tragic about that is that it makes it impossible to know, love, and hear them.

Because you're unsafe if you are near them and so you have to create boundaries for your own [01:19:00] safety and you know, obviously we all want to be able to reconcile with an abuser, or with anybody really, but, unfortunately, enabling someone to grasp at you and to take from you. isn't loving them.

It's not giving them what they really deserve. And so you just have to create a boundary and hope that God will, you know, through his grace, heal them enough so that you can work together on finding a way to love them. unfortunately for me and my dad, that's, you know, For the foreseeable future, not possible.

I have been praying that I'll be at his deathbed and hopefully maybe that's when we can reconcile. But, um, all an abuser wants is to be known and loved. And it's always just a good thing that's not rightly ordered.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Thanks for going into that and I can tell it's emotional and I appreciate you just sharing so much and we'll definitely be praying for you and your dad and

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Thank you.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: happening in your family. Yeah. And I like what [01:20:00] you said and just how, like, if there's a way to reconcile with them, that's safe.

That's a good

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: But if not, then you can't. And then I know you'd say that and what I hear you saying. And I think that's wise. And when it comes to like narcissistic tendencies, I, the way I think about it too, is that there's kind of a, there's a spectrum.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: to have to be like a full blown narcissist is like a very

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: That's like, um, very, um, clear signs. Um, there's, it's a very intense experience for the person, for everyone around them. Um, but all of us, like you said, kind of fall somewhere on the spectrum of being narcissistic because we're all prideful. We have

pride, right? We, and so I think, I think that's,

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: We're all sinful, yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. So I think it's important to kind of talk about that, but obviously we're differentiating between the two, like a full blown case and maybe some tendencies here or there. And then the same thing with like being an abuser, like obviously, um, And I hear you saying that, you know, we all kind of have the abusive tendencies cause we don't treat people well.

We might hurt or harm them in some ways, but obviously it's, Categorically different than someone [01:21:00] who's, you know, doing this in a very severe frequent way, that's really impacting someone like we talked about before. So I appreciate you kind of drawing this out for us. Uh, it's tricky to talk about, and I think that's kind of maybe why it's not getting a lot of attention because it's somewhat elusive.

It's like, you can't really put your hands totally around it. I remember, um, forget, forget which judge it was on the Supreme court. There was a case about pornography. Um, years back, you might have heard this and, um, they, there was like this discussion about somehow hardcore pornography came up and the judge had this really famous line that said, I can't really define it, but I know it when I see it.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And so I wonder if there's something similar here with, with abuse. And so we're going to hopefully keep, uh, talking about this and figure out. You know, the right language to use. So I appreciate you, your work. I appreciate you working on the book when it comes out. If you would send us the link and we'll put it in the show notes here.

So people listening in the future, we'll be able to get access to it. There's so much more I want to talk to you about. Um, guess there's a couple of questions I can't

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: this is going along, but I just want to ask, [01:22:00] one. really common these days. I've fallen into this too.

For those of us who've been through, know, trauma or abuse to fall into like a victim hood, victim mentality. Um, how have you avoided that? Cause it seems like you're in a really good free place. Um, that even the way you talk about what you've been through very different than someone who maybe is like stuck in victim or victim mentality.

So how have you, Not falling into that

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: That is such a good question. Because we live in the victim Olympics. Like, I would be the queen over here. If I were playing that game. But, um,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I'd be a silver medal

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah. Yeah. I, I think, I mean, ultimately the grace of God. but, I think it's just, part of like my innate personality of like, not wanting to be put down.

And like, I'm not gonna, it came from this feeling of, I'm not gonna let this define my whole life. because it came You know, in, in the searching of my identity as a human person in the image and likeness of [01:23:00] God, which is not a victim, right? You are not a victim if you are, made in the image and likeness of God.

That's not your identity. Like, you can be a victim in the sense that someone is abusing you, but that's not who God made you to be, because Christ was also a victim of abuse. all these different things. You know, he was ultimately murdered. but that's not his identity. He rose again and he resurrected death.

And so that's like, victimhood is not where the story ends. And so I think like my, um, I guess desire to not live as a victim comes from reading the passion of Christ all the way to the end of the resurrection. you know, I was made for so much more than living this the rest of my life. And so, I think people can avoid this victim mentality by finding their identity, which is, you know, why I'm trying to write this book.

And, you know, if anyone out there wants to talk about it, I'll definitely very much appreciate any help figuring out publishing that, cause I think it'd be helpful, but, yeah, walking through the passion of Christ and [01:24:00] recognizing that he never called himself a victim ever. Like it's all sacrifice and it's not who he is.

identifies himself as the son of God. And so we need to emulate that. so if you currently feel like you're in a situation where you are truly, you know, Being abused, go deeper, find out what your real identity is, and it will just explode light from you.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love that. I remember hearing Dave Ramsey the financial guru

guys say that

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Wow.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: true. So, and like you said, it's a description of an experience, not an identity. And I think it's important for us all to remember.

And, um, and yeah, joking aside with like the whole victim mentality Olympics, it is a real struggle and I think a lot of us fall into it, but I think there's a lot of, um, progress you can make. I love the advice you gave. Um, one of the things I've seen work too is just like, like you said, like you have to have this like fighter mentality of like, no, no, no, I'm not going to this control my life.

I'm not going to sit here and just feel sorry for myself. Like there's a place for [01:25:00] grieving. I'm not glossing over that. That's important. But at the end of the day, eventually, eventually we have to ask the question now, what And, and the response to that I think is, is what helps us to transform from maybe a victim into what you call like a victor, someone who's like pursuing life, the life that they're meant to live and truly fighting for that, which is worth fighting for.

It's, it's a good and beautiful thing. So, yeah, so much good stuff there. Um, we'll definitely put out future content on that cause it's a big, big struggle. And there's some really, one of the other things I found helpful when it comes to victim mentality is like, look at people maybe in worse situations than you that have done like.

Really beautiful things with their lives and you will be like inspired. Like I can never slack off. Like there's these, there's like a Navy seal. I think of that I wrote about in my book that he got, sorry, kind of graphic, but he got shot in the face with a bullet in the middle East and bullet.

And anyway, he went blind. Um, he, yeah, just had to go undergo all these surgeries and it would have been really easy for him, um, to just give up. And his name is Ryan Jobe and, uh, [01:26:00] Ryan, uh, just refused. And so he began living life to the fullest as he could, um, in that scenario. And I think that's so much, that speaks so much to like being healthy and whole.

given your situation, right? You might, he might never begin his, eyesight, but he was able to live like a full whole life. And so he did amazing things. He got a 4. um, getting a business degree as a blind man. He, um, Married and, his girlfriend and they conceived a baby together. Um, he mounted a, he summited Mount Rainier, which is like a really difficult climb for anyone that's in the Seattle area and people like a couple of people die every year doing that.

He did as a blind man, you need technical gear to get to the top. There's, it's usually really treacherous with weather and things like that, really difficult climb. And he did as a blind man, um, he hunted an elk as a blind man, if you can believe that. So it's like, you hear stories like that and you're like, okay, like I need to, um, yes, grieve what I've lost and heal and everything.

But then like, I need to fight for something and, and just build the life that I want to live. And I see you doing that, which is [01:27:00] really, really beautiful. The last question I had for you was, uh, around, um, your relationship with God. I think it's really common for people like us to actually push God away. And, uh, I'm sure you've had struggles here or there, but it seems like you haven't fallen into that. How did you not?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Just his grace. I, you know, that's, that's all I can say is I, I don't know. It's miraculous. Truly. I, I definitely, um, at the very beginning of like the divorce specifically, like. You know, really was kind of screaming at him. Like, why, why is this happening? So, um, yeah, that's, it's not uncommon to feel that way.

Um, and I still go through periods where I'm, you know, not, as diligent with my relationship with him and giving him the attention and love he deserves to, you know, I'm certainly no saint, but, um, I think just discovering his passion and how every single piece of his passion relates to every single piece of my life and your life too.

You know, you, the listener, there's not a single part in your life that was, um, engulfed by suffering that did not happen in the passion. [01:28:00] and that might take a while for you to kind of Let it soak in if you spend lots of time with it, and you reread it over and over again It you know, it's not identical obviously because Christ isn't living our life He lived his but he wanted you to be able to come to him with every single hurt You ever could have and he could say me too.

That's the beauty of it

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love it. And holding onto him in the midst of that suffering is kind of the key to not just driving him away, which makes so much sense. And yeah, I definitely asked a lot of those questions too, but I'm not sure I think it's so good. We need to be honest, but, um, yeah, that you're wise to kind of go to like, yeah, we have a God who suffered. We can never say he didn't know what it's like. So so much sense. Thank you for that. If your parents, or well, let me say it this way. If you could, speak honestly to your parents about everything, which it sounds like you have with your mom. Um, what would

you say?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: well, I think that that's so tricky because, you know, my dad was abusive. But if I [01:29:00] could say anything, like just a final parting word, it would just be that Christ loves you and that's it. That's what life is about. And so if you try and put him in the center, everything will be okay. And you will reach heaven through your suffering.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Love that. people want to contact you, what's the best way for

them to

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: so I'm trying to remain somewhat, you know, not expose my full identity just because I do talk about abuse, but I made an email last night. Let me look it up. Okay. It's called in joyful praise at gmail. com and it's just You know, regular spelling in joyful praise at gmail. com. And I would love to hear from anybody, um, how the podcast affected you or, you know, how abuse affected you.

And I would just love to talk about it. like I said, I'm also writing a book. So if anyone's interested in maybe getting to know about that, that would be also great because I have no idea what I'm doing, writing a book, but, um, yeah, please do reach out. I would love to email you.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Love it. Thank you so [01:30:00] much. I really appreciate it. I, uh, just wanted to tie up the conversation by saying how grateful I am for you. How, yeah, just, built a beautiful life. You're a beautiful person. It's amazing to see like the transformation, like I said before, and I love especially how you are helping women as part of your job in abusive situations.

Like how beautiful is that? So I think there's so much to be said about, taking like the brokenness, the mess in our lives and like turning it into something good for other people, which is exactly what you've done and what you're doing in your marriage. And as a mother too, that's somewhat of the resolution to this whole problem, all of us face coming from broken families.

So really beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on the show. And you kind of gave a last word, but I want to throw it to you to one more chance. Like what advice or encouragement would you offer to the

younger you? Who's perhaps

listening right now?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I would just say that, entrust everything to God and He will blow your mind. Honestly, that is just the best advice is just learn how to trust Paul and you know, when you get punched down and you've got the wind knocked out of you, try and take a nice big deep breath in and then say, okay, [01:31:00] God, it's all yours.

Just do with it what you will. And He will literally blow your mind.

If you'd like to share your story with us, like Emma did, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three simple steps. At first, I want to talk through some of the benefits of sharing your story. The first one is reflecting on your story and sharing your story with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neuro biological level.

It makes your brain healthier. According to neuro biologists, also writing your story is healing as well. There's been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events. In their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious. They're healthier. And they're happier too. Another benefit though, is that it can help other people.

It can be super helpful to someone who's maybe going through what you were going through. and maybe not sure what to do, and, or haven't really been able to talk with someone who has been through what they've been through as well. And so it can be really helpful in offering them some guidance. And so if you want to share your story, You can just go to restored ministry. Dot com slash story.

You can fill out the form that it just guides you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll turn it [01:32:00] into an anonymous, a blog article. Again, you can share your story now@restoredministry.com slash story. Or just click on the link in the show notes. If you come from a divorce or broken family, or maybe, you know, someone who does we offer more resources than just this podcast, those resources include things like a book. Uh, free video courses, speaking engagements. A free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of those resources, all of our resources are designed to help you heal. From the trauma that you've endured and build the virtue.

So you can break that cycle and build. A better life. And so if you want to check out and view our resources, you can just go to restored ministry.com/resources. Again, whether that's for you or maybe someone, you know, just go to restored ministry.com/resources, or just click on the link in the show notes.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who is struggling from their parents' divorce or their broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. I promise you, they will be very grateful that you did and including. I was, remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole [01:33:00] again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce and your own life.

And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis, who said you can't go back and change the beginning. But you can start where you are. And change the ending.

#127: How Functional Neurology Helps You Heal | Dr. Paul Link

A doctor of functional neurology joins us to explain a new, cutting edge healing science that’s used to heal dysfunction in our bodies and minds, and help us live and perform at our best. It’s already being used by professional athletes and even Navy SEALs. 

We dive into what it is and how it can help you, plus:

• Why people from divorced families struggle more in relationships from a scientific standpoint

• Why one-size-fits-all doesn’t work with healing - it must be personal and custom

• 3 amazing stories of people who’ve benefited from functional neurology, including a

  boy who was confined to a wheelchair that was able to walk

Email Dr. Paul Link 

View Restored’s Resources

Visit BlackstoneFilms.co

American Chiropractic Neurology Board

American College Functional Neurology

Links & Resources

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey:[00:00:00] I'm joined today by a doctor of functional neurology. It's a new and cutting edge healing science that's used to heal dysfunction in our bodies and in our minds and really just help us to live and perform at our best. And it's already being used by professional athletes in hockey, football, and basketball, and even by Navy SEALs.

And so in this episode, we dive into what it is and how it can help you. Plus we touch on why people from divorced families struggle more in relationships from a bit of a scientific. Point of view. We also discuss why a one size fits all approach to healing just doesn't work. It really needs to be personalized and customize each person.

And my guest also shares three amazing stories of people who've benefited a ton from functional neurology, including a boy who is actually confined to a wheelchair that was then able to walk. Thanks to the therapy, really good stuff. Stay with us. Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family, so you can break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is Episode [00:01:00] 127.

We're so thrilled that so many of you found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard awesome stories, awesome feedback. One listener said this. I love your podcast. I listened to one of the episodes today and found it very engaging and professional. I sent a link to the podcast to people I know who need it.

Thanks again for the amazing work you are doing. Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Blackstone films and a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of millennials said video is their top content choice. And that's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that?

Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know, you need to create video content, but you don't really know where to start. And it can leave you feeling kind of overwhelmed to the point where you just Give up on video and you just go back to what you know what with what's comfortable, even though it might not be best for your business or your ministry.

But that's where Blackstone [00:02:00] Films can help you. They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel they can create trailers, promo videos and commercials, uh, social media. Videos, documentaries, uh, fundraising videos, and even courses. We actually produced two video courses with them.

We had an awesome experience. And so whatever it is that you need, Blackstone is obsessed about not just helping you create the video content itself, but create a clear win for you and for your business or your ministry, such as fundraising for your ministry. Selling a course, getting leads for your business, getting students to sign up for your school, promoting your event, and so much more.

And Blackstone has literally reached millions of people around the globe with their videos and they can help you too. And so if you want to view past projects and the services that they offer, or maybe just contact them, go to blackstonefilms. co not. com again, blackstonefilms. com. or just click the link in the show notes.

My guest today is Dr. Paul Link. He's a functional [00:03:00] neurologist and director of clinical education at NeuroSync, as well as a staff clinician at St. Joseph's Chiropractic in Steubenville, Ohio, and CERO, S E R O in Canada. He has published over 100 papers and case studies in neurology, ranging from concussion, ADHD, mood disorders, and various genetic conditions.

Uh, he applies an approach of without drugs and surgery to neurology and wellness by using eye movements and other neurologic pathways to assist in brain health and healing. Really fascinating conversation. Here's my conversation with Dr. Paul.

Joey: Dr. Paul, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. I'm really excited for this conversation.

Dr. Paul:when, when you reached out, uh, you know, realizing, uh, doing a lot of work on your background and looking into, I realized this is not only incredible, but it's an incredible opportunity for me to not just spread the word of functional neurology, but, uh, get a chance to learn from, uh, Another patient demographic and population.

I've been working a lot with so I think it's going to be a great from both [00:04:00] ends

Joey: I appreciate that. And now I just heard a little bit about functional neurology. I know I mentioned to you that. A couple of siblings of mine have been through some functional neurology treatment for some injuries, but also just kind of general health. And, I am really intrigued by what they've told me so far, but I really don't know a lot about it.

So I'm going to be learning alongside our audience to this conversation, which I'm excited about. So starting out, you know, we have this audience of people who come from broken families, whether it's just a lot of dysfunction at home or their parents, you know, maybe are divorced. And so I'm curious, like, why should they care about what we're about to talk about

Dr. Paul: When it comes

to when it comes to functional neurology I think one of the best ways to look at it is not just that it applies solely to those who are sick or going through avenues of health abnormalities or anything because you know One of the things that makes functional neurology unique and what it is in general is if you can imagine living in a in the gray zone.

You know, a lot of the most medical community when everything is, it's black or it's white, you know, you pass this test or you didn't and nothing more than that. I mean, there's plenty of [00:05:00] times you go for health screenings. You're doing lab work and everything is showing up. It's either good or it's out of range and nothing in between, you know If you can imagine functional neurology And this sort of triage we've been able to create with our colleagues and and everything in our in our clinics is that we're taking that gray area and Making that applicable to the masses So you don't necessarily have to have had a recent concussion or a patient with autism. I mean, the, the subset of population you could reach is, is honestly infinite. I mean, we've seen people, and I've been fortunate to see people over the years from Olympic athletes. Uh, you named the professional champion. you know, he had this celebrity world preparing for movie roles all the way down to even just, uh, you know, fortune 500 CEOs or average Joe in business who just realizes that There's little finite things that's making their day to day off. And that could cost the company millions of dollars, or that could cost them their contract year and their [00:06:00] final year of play all the way down to this could be a major, driving point from them to go from maybe in a wheelchair to having their own control of their activities, daily living. So there's, there's no, avenue that can't reach to, and it's really just taking those little fine tunings.

And once you understand the neurology and how to apply it. whatever patients in front of you could start clean slate and just kind of direct care as you need be, um, and pulling from a lot of other professions. And that's kind of what makes it unique is that it really is that combination between T. O.

T. Athletic training, classic neurology. It's taking all these avenues and just You know, like a Venn diagram placing the overlap and just pulling the tools that you need.

Joey: So good. I've been thinking more lately about this whole idea of kind of like psychological drag or just drag in life. Meaning, you know, you imagine if you're trying to run fast. You can run fast. you know, in a lot of scenarios, except if you have like an injury or maybe you're running and you have a [00:07:00] parachute on your back and you're trying to run really fast, but you're not really getting anywhere to, to me, it almost seems like in life when we, when there's all this like untreated trauma on the emotional end, or maybe some physiological, you know, problems that we're just overlooking or ignoring.

Um, it creates that drag in our life. So we want to run fast. We want to get up the mountain. We want to, you know, do all these things. And yet we have all these problems that are holding us back. And so I think it's, uh, I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I think healing can't just be one sided too.

It needs to be multidimensional. And that's what I hear that you guys do in your profession, which is amazing. So I know, I'm sure you have so much to say to that. I wanted to, and we'll dive deeper into all of this, but I wanted to just kind of start with the definition, like what is functional neurology and why did you in particular get into it?

Dr. Paul: And so functional neurology Is that application between taking the classic neurology and it's really applying that without drugs and surgery So you're applying neurology by looking at the five to six senses you have, you know Not the sixth sense [00:08:00] like the like one of the very good movies with hailey joel But you're looking at the sixth sense we'll call it the vestibular system, right?

So you're just taking You Your visual system, your hearing, your sensation to touch, smell, right? You're, you're taking these systems and you're understanding how they really enter the brain what the outputs are of them from there. So you're looking at the bedside and you're looking at, you know, one of the things that we utilize the most of is eye movement. Because if you're talking about, the eyes are the window to the soul, you know, the window to the brain. So you're going to get majority of your information that's going to keep you alive. Okay. off your visual information. from there you can utilize, and we're not looking at you, what you'd have from an optometrist or an ophthalmologist, but rather we're looking at those fine motor movements.

What are the fine tunings that make this eye movement in particular intricate. And then every little defect or deficiency in there. Tells us that an area of the brain is not working so well. So you're just taking the [00:09:00] senses and you're taking those classical bedside examinations from, okay, touch my finger, touch your nose. And you're not just saying, okay, yes, they check those boxes, but we're looking at a little bit more fine tune to say, well, did they touch it with the fingertip? Was there a little bit of a tremor? Was it smooth? Did they miss? Was one area a little bit faster or slower? Because every one of those little deficiencies or inadequacies is going to tell you a lot about what's going on in the brain. And then you're just taking those areas and understanding where in the brain it's working well and which areas aren't, now how does that apply to that individual's needs? Are they the hockey player that's trying to get ready for the game? Or are they, you know, Joe the accountant who's having difficulty because all of a sudden he's realizing that he's carrying numbers over in the wrong way? And you can find any little flaw in these areas of the pathways and apply to it as much as, you know, they're, they're so far off that they're trying to get back to work with their life, or they're already that super high functional athlete is trying to do it in [00:10:00] performance enhancement and actually kind of we talked about before, which is, which is funny because it's similar enough, is, you know, I've always described it as like, imagine you're you know, you're gonna run a 40 yard dash and you just be running, you know, your time is whatever, five seconds. Now take the same thing and take those, you know, goggles from the D. A. R. E. program and put them on. You know, you're going every which way, you're off in traffic, you're falling, stumbling. It's the same area. If your brain, because the three main jobs is to take the world in, process it, and respond to it. If there's deficiencies in any one of those, then anything you do It's just a consequence of an area of the brain not working so well. Some of those could be heart arrhythmias, they could be increased or decreased hormone production, issues, any and everything, reading problems. I mean, there is no deficiency. That you can't look at, at least by analyzing the brain and getting a pretty darn good jumpstart to what's going on.

Joey: Fascinating. Uh, I'm so excited to learn more and to get into kind of the nitty gritty practicals of the [00:11:00] day to day and how you'd treat someone. We'll, we'll get to that. Um, but I am curious, you know, when, yeah, I, I'm, I'm excited to, um, to get into all that, but I, I wanted to ask about the, um, difference between maybe traditional neurology, which I think a lot of people will think of when they hear, you know, the word neurology. So how does maybe your training and your experience differ from a traditional neurologist?

Dr. Paul: Yeah, so, and I know one thing, Jack, was where did my background come from? So, if you look at traditional neurology, majority of traditional neurology, and it's certainly not knocked on the system, but majority of traditional neurology is understanding and looking at things through certain imaging, it could be CT, MRI, and trying to find those certain flaws.

But you have to realize in majority of traditional neurology, their job is to make sure that you are going to be alive. As long as you are without traumas and everything is going to be fine from that application, that is pretty darn efficient and sufficient for that time. Functional neurology is really dealing in the finite and getting you back to [00:12:00] your highest health state. And my background from there came similar enough, but honestly by somewhat of a mistake, um, I was in school. I went to college, interestingly, to bowl and golf, but I went there. So my background is, uh, biology and analytical chemistry. Um, and then from there, I was fortunate enough to work on some of the early beginnings of the human genome project and some, some mice studies with different strains with. Um, autism and some of the original BTBR strains and, you know, this one has, uh, some, some corpus callosum difficulties um, and lesions. So I was fortunate to come out of that world, um, and in the beginnings of the human genome project, everyone felt that if we could get an understanding of certain allele structures, and we can get an idea of the code. And we could program out and figure out what areas of this is making a particular protein abnormality that's causing someone to have Parkinson's or if we find the [00:13:00] autism gene, you know, we're going to really be able to turn the world and very early on. They realized that it doesn't work so easily that way.

And it's, it's gonna be much more difficult to get that. And we also realized on, I was fortunate to have some very good guidance in the beginning. And one of the professors had said if you right now you have no financial obligations, you have no reason to be here. You're a junior in college. I think some of the answers are going to be in neurology. There's a course coming up. It was a neuro function. Uh, a uh, neurophysiology of pain. If you like that course, I think maybe neurology would be for you and head the route of med school. So. did it took that course. My background was not whatsoever in, uh, neurology or anatomy. Uh, a nurse, dad's a mortician.

So I was around health from every avenues. And that's kind of where I did majority of my schoolwork and studying was just sitting in a doctor's office. And so I saw it from the big picture, but I'd never been around neurologist or town didn't have one. So to me, that was an un, uh, sort of an unrouted area.

So. All [00:14:00] I did was just take that course and realize this makes a whole lot of sense to me. Uh, applied and was getting ready to go for, uh, you know, an MD PhD. And about a month before school was working at a golf course where I did for about 10 years, mowing fairways and, you know, everything. And, it took a little break in like the early, early days of YouTube back.

And it was just like, you know, cats playing on the piano. And I went on there and found a video that we had watched, um, in school, uh, About this, uh, about this little girl, she was on Oprah, and she had, uh, Aledinia. just thought, well, let me rewatch was really interesting. Let me see if I can just, you know, spend my time reading a little bit here while I'm waiting. I came across a video of Dr. Kerrig when he was doing his, uh, Connie Chung interview and realized, um, you know, whatever whatever he's doing, don't have anything about his background, but whatever he's doing, this is the route I want to go found out, um, he was, uh, a chiropractor and then I thought that's what I need to do.

And about an hour later, I emailed the [00:15:00] school and said, I'm not coming and. a few months off and waited for the next course to come through and went the route to be a chiropractor as a base and then went and took courses for the Kerrigan Institute and realized later on Dr. Kerrig was so much more.

He was, you know, never to step over that. He was the founding father of functional neurology and created everything from the ground up and just an absolute. brilliant mind that gave us all a tremendous foundation to build upon. and I was fortunate later on to go, um, work for him and Dr. Antonucci at Plasticity and have a great background that the first patients I saw, and really the only cases I saw were ones that. Um, had been, you know, 10, 12 different places and, you know, I've been to you name the clinic and didn't get the results they wanted. So it made some of the work a little bit more difficult, but in a way, it gave a lot of avenues that we realized there's so many areas over here that these patients are going through very common diagnoses, or at least different types of diagnostic procedures. But they're missing a [00:16:00] very large picture that's giving a lot of our answers. So we're able to just super specialize into that. And that was I was very fortunate that my first job, um, right out of school, actually, while I was in school, was just being around, you know, some of the most brilliant minds in neurology and allowed me to publish a lot of papers and research.

But that gave me a very, uh, quick education into the application of neurology from the textbook that you don't see. So. That's where my background came out of. It was, it was really more than from genetics, right to neurology and, and then just really seeing the overlap from the cellular level. So, also kind of also demonstrates that there, there is no avenue that you, you can't go into.

Joey: Wow. What a story. And. I'm so grateful for people like you and the doctors you, you know, you studied with, and I saw that you've done a ton of research on this as well. Like you've published so many papers, things like that too. So it's just so fascinating. And, um, what a privilege to, to just be at the forefront of this kind of new, uh, field of [00:17:00] study and, and the way in which you're helping people.

So my goodness, I'm honored to talk with you. I, uh, I wanted to. Maybe paint a little bit of a clearer picture on top of what you've already explained about kind of what parts of the body, function neurology focuses on. You already mentioned the senses and the sixth sense, like you said. Um, take us a little bit deeper there.

Dr. Paul: Yeah, so if you could imagine, we talked about it a little bit, there's, there's no limitations to neurology, but imagine a situation where, let's say an individual is going through, oh, they're about to do some public speaking and, you know, you're about to give that speech or, or, you know, you're about to hit that golf ball, whatever it might be.

And then the heart rate starts going. Nothing in your environment is necessarily abnormal. You could be around people that you're completely comfortable with, but just an interpretation of settings around you allowed for different little intricacies in that autonomic nervous system that now the heart rate's going.

You start to, you know, pupil [00:18:00] sweat. And then performance can lack. Some people will develop certain stutters. Some people will, you know, the golf swing change, all these little intricacies that could occur are motor responses because of a poor interpretation of an environment. Or you can look at also the emotional system, how it plays a role.

Because one of the ways that we look at it is if you can imagine the emotional system being treated just like a motor pathway, no different than if I were to reach out and shake your hand and you would say, okay, well, I'd want to reach my hand out and extend it, you know, grasp and then release and pull back.

You would just look at that and realize the systems that were involved in the frontal lobe and some of the areas in the back part of our brain or cell realm to navigate that and make sure it was nice and smooth and rhythmic. Well, that same type of process is occurring. But in this case, the motor pathway is a limbic response, happiness, sadness.

fear, anxiety. It's, although a little bit different, very, [00:19:00] very similar in terms of its application. So you can have people who, you know, they're getting these different arrhythmias or You look at people who have, um, POTS is a great example, you know, postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome, where their heart rate increases or decreases based upon perception of gravity.

So now you can see the little intricacies where the vestibular system, the areas in your inner ear, how they have a direct influence to postural responses. Because if you were to be laying down, you would imagine that would be a relaxed state and your heart rate would respond as such. But if you were going to sit up and be involved in an activity, you can imagine you'd want to have a blood pressure and heart rate and rhythm that would match that.

Well, if these areas brainstem, are not responding to the environment appropriately, then any output you could have is going to have these aberrancies. And that's why we can look at almost everything, regardless if a person has Parkinson's, concussion, [00:20:00] had, uh, trauma in the past. And we've, you know, um, prior to, to me becoming a functional neurologist long before, and actually then recent, I've been fortunate, um, some of my other current jobs working with, uh, the Navy SEALs and, uh, Uh, the rangers and and a few other components of the military where we can look at these people and not only are they utilizing functional neurology.

for their return to play or their return to battle, but they're also looking at it as how can we get them after they retire after their discharge, how can we get them back into being those, you know, functional members of society because, you know, we hear unfortunate the trauma and the horror stories of, you know, our vets, they go out and represent and serve our country so well, but then they come back and we have these emotional distresses that we can put them in the correct environment.

everything could be and comfort and they're back home. Yet we still have these aberrancies in response. And we realized some of it's not just the environment, but we have to be able to access these [00:21:00] deeper, older parts of our brain that are survival driven. So again, you can realize that there's, there's no, um, areas that you can't serve, but because of that, if we're just looking at those little intricacies, you could see that you can have someone that, That looks like a cardiovascular problem or it mimics, um, changes in, um, you know, you know, we, we've seen changes in, um, pregnancy rates.

We've seen people with changes of different, uh, hormone outputs, increased testosterone or estrogen levels. That are, and certainly not in all cases, but they are, some of them, uh, brain driven responses, and you address these areas of the brain, and the successes are right there, and then when you have, which we're fortunate in, um, in our clinic in Ohio to combine where we say, if we take functional neurology with functional medicine and trauma therapy, and you combine this triad, I mean, you have an incredible response where now you're addressing everything from not only the neurologic, but the [00:22:00] metabolic and a direct input in the, in the limbic system, and I mean, it's just home run time and time again.

Joey: So good. No, I love the holistic approach, and I think so many people would agree that, I hope one day it's everyone would agree, that uh, You know, so much of our medical system is just so like segmented and siloed and we don't look at the human body, the human person like through this holistic lens and that's what I hear you saying, which is like so, so good.

And it's so wise to it makes sense that you're the work that you're doing would be so effective. Because it's not just looking at, you know, an individual symptom and being like, well, it must be this because of this and this, but it's like really saying, well, what else is going on? And, you know, how, yeah.

So I just love the holistic approach.

Dr. Paul: Zach, could you look at, I mean, an example you hear talk about, like in the orthopedic world and PT and OT where they talk like the kinetic change, someone has a knee issue. but it could be coming from the hip or the low back or the ankle. It's really a theory, just neurology's kinetic chain application.

It is those avenues because we could see it time and time again where, uh, you know, I'm a big sports fan and I've [00:23:00] set a game a couple of weeks ago. Won't say which team, but probably easy to find. Um, watched one of my, uh, big MVPs drop down with a knee injury. And was that a knee problem or was that from different areas of the ankle?

You know, big football fan. I'm fortunate to work with some of the leagues and teams, but, um, you know, I've watched some of the players that are on my beloved team, which if you look around close, some of you will find out where they have some soft tissue injuries, and they've been dealing with these for their whole career, and you look and realize, is it a soft tissue issue, which it could be, or if we addressed all these areas in the gym, and we're still having these soft tissue complaints, is it a neurologic response that we Aren't getting the information to the muscles in time and then the output is delayed, you know, no different than we talked about those derogatory before, you know, what if an individual feels as though they're tilted this position and if you were to walk around like this all day, he would certainly have contraction of muscles over here because you'd be trying to pull yourself up all day long.

So if you were going around [00:24:00] because you had a perceived, um, portion of gravity where you felt like you were leaning to the right, as an example. Okay. All of a sudden, you're going to have not only shortened muscles on that right side and elongated ones on the left, but you'd also have a lot of reflexogenic responses all day long trying to pull you left, even though you are up and down, you're perceiving it opposite.

So every response you make would be different, at which point now we're having these, holes and these tears of hamstrings and everything left and right in the league because we're looking at things sometimes solely from a soft tissue response. But if we put someone on these balance plates and we looked at centers of pressure and we combine that with our analysis of eye movements, we can get a better perception as to where does this person feel like they are in space.

and where space is around them, now we can get a better application as to what they should be responding to. And now some of the injury prevention can look a whole lot different. And it's not just, again, in the sports world, that's in everyday life. If you [00:25:00] perceive, um, a new relationship as being, um, you know, tarnished for whatever reason, because it resembles someone you knew before, that's not giving a fresh, clean slate to this new person.

But if we can allow these areas of the brain to have a better interpretation of what's the current environment and be allowed to interpret your settings in a much different way. Some of these responses of PTSD or trauma responses from adoption and everything like that, you know, we can solve these a lot quicker or at least help them along where Um, we're still using traditional therapy responses, but because we're addressing the areas of the brain in conjunction with that or prior to now, these traditional therapies of the talk therapy or the the nutritional therapies and functional medicine because the brain is actually healthy and these tissues are able to respond appropriately.

Now, the successes from those other avenues that the patient tried before that it couldn't quite stick. [00:26:00] Now they're having the success that they didn't have before all because you just addressed the areas of the brain that were really of Concern that weren't looked at because you know, it is taught in school.

Unfortunately, very compartmentalized. Okay. This is the knee This is the temporal this well, how do they work together? Don't worry about that. You just you just prefer them out to somebody else the knee guy will look at that Well, am I ever gonna talk to the knee guy? No, in fact, the patient's not gonna see the knee guy for a year so By the time they go there, they've got other issues.

And you know, now we're lost in the system. But if we're looking at it from a whole, that holistic, and we're looking at it from that connected approach now, now you're addressing things from the source right away. And we're not worried about the knee. We're looking at what the source is and the knee's gonna take care of itself unless there is a knee issue as well.

And now we're dealing with that in the end versus just starting there and hoping and praying we get to the right area. The guesswork's gone. You're making the, uh, you know, invisible visible.

Joey: So good. You made me think of [00:27:00] a switch the U. S. Navy made somewhat recently. I remember hearing that on some of their smaller boats, they would have all these specialists.

on the boats who were just very focused on like one area, like the engineering or, you know, whatever other areas, I don't know, the Navy. and what they, the switch that they made is they made uh, the teams on these boats more generalists. Where they were able to do different things and they weren't maybe so honed in or siloed or compartmentalized, like you said, in one area.

And it's been like a game changer apparently for them. And so some of what I hear you saying is like, certainly you like have such an expertise in this, but in a way, in the right way, you're like more of a generalist. You're looking at the whole system, you're looking at it, um, without, you know, just focusing on one system, not knowing anything about the rest, which is, it makes so much sense to me.

And, uh, You know, it's awesome to hear that you've worked with special operators and with, you know, pro athletes. Cause I just think it speaks to the credibility and how effective this is. Cause what I've seen too, especially in like the medical world or the performance world, the, the best [00:28:00] and most cutting edge things often start there before they get to the general population, because those are the people who like, they want to be at their very best, whether it's Olympians or pro athletes or, you know, people performing at a high level.

And so it's cool to see how it's going to be spread. far and wide, but that you're starting with that group. That's a really good sign for everyone listening. If you want to know something about this, um, so much there. I, uh, I did have a question for you. I was listening to Jordan Peterson the other day, and he was talking about Gottman, uh, Dr.

John Gottman's research. And he was talking about how, you know, Gottman would bring couples to anyone who's not aware that Gottman has studied marriage and especially, Conflict within marriage for over 30 years now and supposedly they can predict with like 94 percent accuracy whether a couple is going to get divorced or not just by observing how they handle conflict and We've gone into this a bit in other episodes, but one of the things that Peterson made me Want to ask you was that they when they're looking at [00:29:00] neurobiological level They're seeing that they're in, in these, um, couples that were conflict is handled poorly, where they follow like the four horsemen of the apocalypse, um, their bodies literally reacting as if there's a predator present, it's what he said.

Could you break that down for us? I'm so fascinated by that.

Dr. Paul: Yeah, without, uh, without naming too many of my exes, well, we can go through that, but it's interesting because you look at some of those areas with, um, with his research, and then there's even some of his other colleagues and people he learned from or looked at it were type A personalities, or this is an alpha versus a beta, maybe, maybe we do need always the pack leader, and thus the next person in the relationship has to, by default, be that, that next personality type or type B, and it's not necessary that way, but And if you could look at it from a few different ways, you know, if you can imagine, and it's not like this in all, in all cases, and it is very individualized, but one of the things that occurs in this was, if you're trying to, if one of the things you're trying to do, and no matter what, and one of the ways that I just do it, it's just easier for [00:30:00] me if I, if I look at it, because, you know, neurology is, is certainly complicated and there's, you know, You know, dozens of books over there about it, but, you know, in the end it is complicated.

There's a lot of, you know, tiny intricate names of these nuclei and it's Latin. This guy's French over here. You know, there's a lot of those areas and you're trying to figure out that compartmentalized system, but if you just imagine and you take almost that, um, like Uh, you're on the island approached by yourself or you're in the middle of the woods and you think, okay, if I was to survive this, what would be the adaptations I would make?

How would I evolve to whatever the surroundings are around me? But if a person in the area, in certain areas of their brain, in some of these back areas of the brain, these higher areas in the brainstem, that give you a good sense of where you are in the world and where the world is around you. And it combines a lot of things.

memories, both short and long term, uh, you know, facial recognition, you know, your posture and balance. Cause again, if you're, you know, if you're like, I, I trust you, but let's say I interpret you as a super [00:31:00] strong individual. I don't mind maybe walking too close to the cliff because he'll save me. But if I'm with someone who's super tiny and I think, man, if I, if I jump here, he can't grab me, you know, all of a sudden your interpretation of the same person, but now exposed in a much different sense.

Maybe it's not so good. Maybe you move to an area where you think, you know, my partner here, they this is good We're compatible Until all of a sudden something brings into the home and now you're having the argument who sleeps closer to the door frame, right? Who's who gets who gets the other side of the bed?

It's, it's, it's just taking the environment and allowing these little intricate changes. But if these areas in the brain are either causing anxiety, where you only analyze the negatives of the situations, then sometimes you only view your partner in, can they only help me in the negatives? But from the other way too, if you only analyze things in the positive sense, You're kind of dumbfounded when things don't go a certain way.

And it's that way in these relationships and these analytics where if these areas of the brain are not working well, that are [00:32:00] giving you a good timestamp to the current present and being able to remove that and say, look, that that unfortunate thing that happened to me 10 years ago, it's always going to be with me.

Cause that is a survival component that you carry over, but that wasn't this person. They still get the clean slate and then we're going to use those things. Cause if we see the comparisons, you know, those red flags, Then we have those conversations. But if everything is automatically, everybody with brown hair is the devil, then those types of things are not going to really carry over going forward.

That's going to give you the success in life. But if you're looking at them, because we can look at these areas of the brain through, through a vast number of uh, diagnostic criteria and everything, You know, now we can get a better picture as to what's going on in this person's brain. What are the responses?

Cause we're not just looking at it from those areas of the brain. But also downstream, we're looking at, we're measuring the autonomics. We're looking at, you know, the blood pressure and heart rate bilaterally. We're putting them in different posture, but we're, we're exposing them to different [00:33:00] environments.

We're not, we don't expose them to 500 people to understand how they respond, but we need to at least tax the system to figure out if we know what's going on in this person's brain, and then they're telling us because they're in front of us now and giving us this idea of how it's affecting them in the, in a negative way.

We can really design a direct game plan for them unique to everything else customized for them that gives them a very, very, um, high success probability that we can solve these things or at least give them much better tools and direction that their life is successful.

Joey: Love that. And I love the customized approach.

That was something I don't think I realized coming into this interview, um, how customized it is. And that makes a lot of sense how it's hard to maybe give, you know, perfect general answers. But once you understand the specifics of someone's situation, you're able to really dig into that and say, this is what you need to do, which I'm really excited to go deeper into that.

Um, if I'm understanding that, right.

Dr. Paul: I can give you an example of that. [00:34:00] There was a, there was a really good, uh, papers done, uh, probably a handful of years ago. My question goes 10 years ago at this point. where it analyzed a group of students who were just having reading difficulties. You know, they were, all they, all they knew was that this individual, they just took 30 kids in a classroom, they said, all right, all we know is these individuals are reading X amount of levels below their grade level.

So then they took a couple of different customized approaches into how they did it. They put one category in where they looked at And they applied no differences in their training. And they said, all right, if we look at eye movement analytics and these saccades, if we're looking at them saying. Or if they're going to jump from word to word to word, if their ocular motor approaches are inaccurate, then they're reading the same line twice.

They're skipping lines. So now they're reading comprehension scores, of course, are going to be poor, because they're not even getting the whole story. So when you're asking, you know, where did Spot run? You're going, who's Spot? You know, if you're looking at it from that way, if you can't read accurately, And [00:35:00] that's going to tank your reading comprehension scores.

So those individuals were given certain eye movement criteria, just generalized ones, and put over here. The other ones who were having the reading comprehension issues, they did other types of classic maneuvers that were more customized to them, and they were put in their category. In the end of the 30, everyone jumped at least three to four grade levels, and all they did was do this for 10 minutes a day for two weeks.

But it's taking that customized approach and realizing the kids sit next to you, they're Maybe their exercises aren't going to work for you. You're both struggling in reading, but for vast different reasons, it's all customizable. Once you understand what that person needs, I mean, sky's the limit.

Joey: So good.

And I love that approach because it's so, like you said, individualized, personalized, customized. Like that's, I think what people need. I think that's like one size fits all. We've seen for so many reasons, just doesn't. Doesn't work well. So, man, I'm loving this. I'm curious if there's any typical neurological, um, dysfunctions that are associated with emotional trauma.

And I know, [00:36:00] you know, we're talking to an audience, obviously, who comes from, you know, broken families, traumatic family situations, whether it's high dysfunction, like I mentioned, or divorce. So I'm curious if there's any kind of typical telltale signs, symptoms that come up neurologically for someone coming from that background.

Dr. Paul: That's a great question. That's where, although it's customizable and similar, there are some patterns that certainly follow. Now there's certainly types that, you know, this one's going to be the anomaly, but a lot of times, and what's interesting is, and I've been fortunate to do a lot of, recent studies with this and see a lot of, recent patients on this in the last few years where patients who have gone through traumas and not just relationship traumas, have very similar mimicking of areas of the brain that aren't working and responding so well as those who were from, uh, who were adopted and a lot of them adopted from, from other countries who either had, um, you know, unfortunate past histories that they may or may not know.

they're in, you know, phenomenal loving families currently, but have [00:37:00] similar areas. And one of the areas that we're noticing a lot of times is not only these back areas of the brain in this posterior parietal cortex, it's, you know, giving these responses or should give these responses into, you know, time space relationship.

I mean, this is where Einstein was very good and, you know, seeing those extra dimensions that you can't see through the naked eye because it gives you an interpretation of self versus world. Well, that would definitely be skewed if, again, you're analyzing a situation with yourself, a relationship, a newly adopted parent that is, you know, you're perceiving as a way from before because your subconscious wasn't working so well.

And some of the others are these almost perseverations or these wind ups in these areas of the frontal lobe. Uh, in the areas of executive function, uh, mainly up front is when the problem is area 11, it's the orbital frontal area. And that's like your gatekeeper to the emotional limbic system. So that would be, you're about to have a emotional response, happiness, sadness, and [00:38:00] it's going to pass through this orbital frontal area as well, uh, to give some of these action commands to these much deeper areas in the brain.

Well, if those areas are overworking or working a little bit slower than they need to, uh, then the response is skewed. And what's interesting is we've seen a lot of patients that, especially from adoptive families that still have their primitive reflexes, which should be attenuated, you know, by two, two and a half, depending on, um, the type of, of the type of relapse.

Some of them are gone by six months. Some of them last two, two and a half years, possibly. We have some patients that I've seen that, you know, 13, 14 years old. that still have these pre motor reflexes because these areas of the brain in the front haven't developed because of these areas of perception that these areas of the frontal lobe are working well, but these areas are super deficient.

All of a sudden you address these and you say, well, of course they can't make an appropriate decision and they have these very odd behaviors or they act immature in these other areas. Then it's because areas in the brain haven't [00:39:00] developed well. And so, like I said, a lot of it's that area that gives you that current time space relationship.

Where am I? Where's the world around me? As you can imagine, that's going to be very critical if you're going to analyze an environment. And these other areas are also heavily involved with not only emotions, but emotional memories is the key one. And those areas, uh, quite often are deficient or lagging behind in the development.

And we could address those, uh, you know, noninvasively, uh, pretty successfully.

Joey: So fascinating. Uh, one of the things in the research that I've seen is that the biggest area of life that's impacted when your parents get divorced in particular is your own future relationships, especially your future marriage.

And I'm curious kind of how you, I have my way of interpreting that as like a lay person and someone who's been through, you know, been through that. I'm curious how you might interpret that, um, neurologically. In addition to what you've already said, why is it such a struggle? Why is it such a struggle for, you know, like one of the ways I articulated it in college was, it was [00:40:00] like, man, it feels like my relationships, my dating relationships in particular are just like so much more difficult, so much harder than my friends, from what I'm hearing, my friends.

Say who come from maybe healthy intact families. And so yeah, it was always baffling to me and marriage and you know, a lot of ways you know has been a challenge and you know, we've worked through things for sure and are in a better spot, but But I we've seen that trend and I think that's why so often you know, it's just cycle that repeats itself like we talked about Before recording is that, you know, we end up coming from these broken families and we don't really know how to build healthy relationships and we build unhealthy relationships, which leads to broken marriages and broken families and this whole thing.

So I'm just curious, like, from your vantage point, um, people have heard me talk about it, but I'm curious from your vantage point, like, why, why do we end up repeating that? And what's going on like below the surface that we don't maybe talk about?

Dr. Paul: Yeah, if you can imagine that, and that's point two. And also some of what we talked about, Cameron, if you look at, you know, the, the rates now, especially of, of divorce, and you look at [00:41:00] the, difficulties in relationships and, and certainly social media doesn't help in their perceptions of they feel, uh, you know, an appropriate relationship is, and, you know, the, the higher numbers of even open relationships, which is, it's, it's, it's a whole nother box of whatever's, but if, if you look at as that becomes normalized, You have to look at some of the other areas too of one that's a massive subset of population.

That's that's definitely going to be needing care But in that interpretation of it, you know, you're at most times not always but you know There is a you know a product of your environment But if you can imagine if you at a young age or whatever age you had relationship difficulties You have to make sense of it because again you have to be able to survive The next avenue, you're still a living organism that has to adapt.

You don't know if it was because of a trauma or you, you stepped on a landmine. The reality is a negative behavior occurred. And thus you have to make sure that you can analyze those things differently. Well, now I know what a landmine looks like versus now. I know what a bad relationship looks like and what signs to [00:42:00] look for.

So these areas have to adapt to it. But if you look at it from there's what we consider plasticity versus negative plasticity, you know, for those who aren't either heard of the terms aren't quite sure, you know, plasticity is that ability of the brain to make, you know, microscopic connections. between other areas of the brain.

You know, when they talk about like muscle memory, the muscles don't remember anything. It's these areas of the brain and the motor cortex that are able to produce much more hardwired pathways to make that type of movement more efficient. Well, there's plasticity, good thing, but you could have negative plasticity where you have, you know, a wind up where all of a sudden you, you see something, all of a sudden you develop a stutter, or you, you know, you see water on the right and all you think of is, well, don't block it right.

And you start pulling them left all the time in golf, you know, whatever those movements are, you have ad adapted avoidant behaviors. So if you're not able to fully address. what the reasons are why you Don't quite have something because maybe [00:43:00] you were exposed to Your parents doing something that you didn't know or all of a sudden you just think are all relationships going to end in divorce I thought my parents loved each other, you know, whatever those things could be if You aren't, not only necessarily, you're going to make sense of it, maybe even you feel like you made sense of it, but these areas in the subconscious, you know, are waving their fingers saying, no, you didn't.

You have these avoidant behaviors and because of that, now you develop these negative plasticity and now your whole world and adaptation is a consequence of just something that happened in the past that may or may not have even directly affected you, but now it has. So, that's some of the things that occur.

But again, when you look at it and being able to make sense of it through combination of, you know, trauma therapy, functional neurology, there's even been great research coming out in the last few years from, you know, Harvard and some of my colleagues up in Canada with psilocybin mushrooms and looking at those areas in psychedelics and being able to hit these Areas in the limbic [00:44:00] system and frontal lobe, you know, all these different avenues that could be addressed You can have an ability to look deeper within and make sense of those things because otherwise you do develop the avoidant behaviors And yeah, your successes and the relationships are probably going to be diminished because of it.

Joey: So good Let me I want to make sure I understand this and i'll just kind of give you a little bit of a readback And what i'm hearing is that We kind of subconsciously and even like neurobiologically pick up patterns in life, patterns of behavior, ways of treating people. So if like our parents are, you know, like one of the things I observed growing up and my parents would be the first one to tell you this is they just didn't handle conflict very well.

And so, you know, they would argue, things would get loud and then one or both of them would just kind of walk away and nothing was really resolved. And so for me going into relationships, I felt like, my goodness, I really have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to conflict. It feels really scary. It's a lot, like you said, easier to just kind of avoid that and tiptoe around and not talk about maybe hard things.

And so, on a brain level, it sounds like that's just kind of what my brain learned to [00:45:00] do. And that it truly can be rewired, but like you're saying, we need to first kind of go to that place of, okay, this is what I learned. And then this is kind of how I'm dealing with it now. And this is what maybe I want to be doing in the future differently.

 and, That muscle memory, like you mentioned, just like with swinging a bat or a golf club or hockey stick, like we can train our brains even in relationships to do things differently too, which I think is super hopeful because what I've seen a lot with this audience too, because me being one of them is, we, I think it feel really hopeless.

We can feel really helpless. We can feel, uh, fall into kind of the whole victim mentality thing of being like, well, I'm kind of screwed. Came from a really messed up family, broken family, never really saw a healthy relationship. I have this maybe slew of unhealthy relationships that I fell into. I don't know if I'm capable of even building a good marriage of, you know, and all that.

And so I think it could lead to this dark space. So this is just very hopeful even.

Dr. Paul: Yeah, no, it's incredibly, you know, you have it not only from personal experience where you go, oh, no, this one didn't work out. All hope is gone. No, it's not. No, it's not. It's not at all. In fact, you probably are going to gain a whole lot [00:46:00] more from it if you have an ability to look at why that one didn't work out.

Now you have an entire, you know, new line of questioning or adaptation to apply to it. I'll be the first that, you know, it didn't always work. I was necessarily, um, for myself and some of my friends and family around me. But now when you can look at it from a different approach and it, you know, maybe as an instant, but if you have those resources around you and not necessarily solely just a functional neurologist, but those friends and family around you that you could bounce the ideas off of.

If you're given a better blueprint as to what to ask and realize that, okay, given this environment, what can I do next? Now you have a much better chance of success than, than not addressing those things. And instantaneously. Um, just bottling it up and go, Oh, that's, that's it for me. It's, it's not, it's not

Joey: beautiful.

I love it. So, so inspiring. And I want to get a little bit more, um, kind of nitty gritty in terms of what, if someone were to come to see you, like imagine someone's listening right now and they want to make an appointment with you and they were to come and see you, like, what would that look like? What [00:47:00] would the first appointment look like?

If they were to tell you like, yeah, You know, even like, especially with this audience, I come from a broken family. These are my struggles. I have emotional problems like anxiety, depression, loneliness. I, you know, maybe have behavior, uh, bad habits in my life. Um, I have, you know, relationship struggles like we were talking about.

Um, yeah. What would the first appointment look like? How would you assess them? I'm curious, kind of the whole nine years.

Dr. Paul: No, that's a, that's a great one because, you know, when you hear functional neurology go, yeah, well, what is it? What do I do? What are you actually doing here? This guy talked about PTOT, balance this, this person's falling off a cliff.

You know, with functional neurology and what the first appointments look like generally, um, I'll do a screening first and, and have a conversation with the person just to make sure I understand what's going on. I don't need a full detailed history and that stuff. I want to first understand is functional neurology going to work for this person?

Because there might be a population where it's, necessarily not and not always the case, but if they are under maybe certain medications that they have to come off of or they're [00:48:00] hospitalized currently in those things, or, you know, we've, I mean, we've been fortunate that we've seen people in comas and locked in syndrome.

So you are not limited by what those are. But we just want to make sure that is this going to work for you? And to be honest with you, the majority of the patients that it works for are ones that it's open for. If you're coming in and you really have no, uh, want or desire to improve, one of the things that makes functional neurology, somewhat limited is the fact that it's also limited by your ability to, you know, get to appointments and work together on those things.

And there's home exercises, but not as complicated. But that first appointment after the screening, we say, okay, Yeah, this is a case I could help. This is something this is working. We could work with these areas. Your first appointment is combination of almost an interview a history of what's going on a lot of question answer back and forth, followed by it's a pretty detailed physical exam.

I mean, it's usually our couple minutes longer or more. I mean, we've had some two hour exams, three hour exams. We've [00:49:00] had some that are, you know, half hour. And what we'll do is we're going to analyze those senses. We're going to look at a few different pieces of technology. We're going to do some bedside exams.

We're going to do the classic finger, nose, finger. We're going to shine the light in the eyes and look at pupil responses, but we're also going to do posturography and balance testing. We're going to look at, um, analysis of eye movements from tracking targets, pursuits, jumping from target to target saccades, um, optic kinetics, vestibular reflexes in all different planes.

Because again, we're looking at for the intricacies. You're telling me maybe you're having relationship difficulties or you're having trouble with balance or back pain or, um, you're having trouble playing your sport or you have a tremor, you know, we're just looking to figure out, okay, where's the breakdown that's causing this output that you don't, that we don't need so much.

And we're looking at those senses specific to you. We might have these general platforms that we're looking at the eye movements, the balance tends to testing the pinwheel sensation. We're looking at [00:50:00] the autonomics. You know, we're, we're looking and listening to the heart rate and different various positions, and we're doing a pretty detailed examination.

Like I said, it's going to take, you know, sometimes an hour to two hours quite often, but that's going to allow us a big picture is to figure out what areas in the brain are working well and which areas need addressing. And what does that have to do with what you're here for? Then we create that customized plan specific for you.

And, um, the way I work and research is, has demonstrated to be the most efficient and, um, also due to some of the schedules that we all have. Um, the way we generally worked with is an intensive model, which means to say, generally, you're going to see me three times a day or three to five days and your first appointment is going to take, you know, that maybe a couple hours, a little bit more into the analytics and figure out what's going on with you.

And then right when you come back in, we're starting that treatment plan. And that's again, that combination of whatever you need. It could be a, catered version of vestibular vision [00:51:00] therapy. Uh, some, some of the balance training, some of the movements and the fine tuning. I mean, some of it is you, I've had PT before.

Oh, teens you have, and we're using that as the blanket terminology, but we're applying it specific to you for what these reasons are. in combination with many other areas. So you're having that next appointment, you know, generally that's, we'll say an hour, a couple more hours off. And then you're coming back that third time and we're just repeating those treatments then for the next few days and making those micro changes based off what we see.

Cause each before and after each exam or our appointment, rather we're looking at, okay, where are we at? Where do we need to make those adaptations? Because if we're doing something, if, if I, you know, move a patient's head and vestibular rehab, I should be able to retest. Some of these areas in the eye movements or the balance and I should be able to see a micro change and if we're seeing Those changes already Instantly, we know we're on the right thing.

If not, then we need to change that exercise right away So before you even leave that first appointment, we have a pretty clear I'd understanding [00:52:00] of where at least we need to start with your exercise. It's not guesswork. It's not oh, you have a concussion Well, this is what we do for concussion. I mean, I've no idea we're gonna do it yet I have no idea what you have.

I have no idea what we're going to do, but we're going to figure out now specific for you. And that's, that's how each appointment works. So generally you're with, me for, you know, three to four hours a day for at least three to five days. Yeah, we've been fortunate with them. We do that pre and post measurements, um, you know, that at about 90 to 95 percent of cases were at or exceeded, um, whatever the goals were for the week.

That's one thing we also do is keep a lot of stats on, um, from sleep performance, which is, which is one that's always been a residual that I've only ever had a handful that have come in for sleep abnormalities. But generally sleep is affected because these areas of the brain not working so, so well. Um, but we're, we're tracking sleep.

We're tracking the heart rate and rhythm. We're looking at sometimes for some people their blood work pre and post. We're looking at all these intricacies and um, now we're able to make some, [00:53:00] some pretty substantial gains in, in a small, small window.

Joey: Yeah, that's incredible. Within three to five days, and I imagine you're kind of like setting the body and the brain up on a path to continue healing itself to, so it doesn't just stop past the, you know, the three to five days and someone comes back for more, but you're really trying to Um, from what I understand, keep the body going forward.

Is that right?

Dr. Paul: A hundred percent. I mean, for no, no reason. Then, uh, when you first told me your name, I still remember it. You know, that was a pathway. I didn't know that was a, that was a stimuli. I didn't know. And all of a sudden, well, now I know this person's name and I can remember that going forward.

It's that same concept. We're just applying it to, well, this person had a tremor. We want to make a little bit smoother. This person has some balance issues. We're trying to improve just by increasing and changing the stimuli in the brain. You're making instantaneous adaptations. But we want the adaptations to be, you know, in the direction where it's more symmetric and more appropriate versus, you know, that negative plasticity and, and they hold, and we still give you exercises to do at home for X [00:54:00] amount of period of time.

Again, that's all, that's all part of the whole, whole process and cater to you. But now, because of that, we're having a plan specific for you, and we know it's going to stick and hold, and in those cases where you have a degenerative condition or a neurodegenerative condition, you know, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, well, if we know the trajectory is going to be downward, if every so often we can recommend you come in for a boost, if you plateau in a condition that the trajectory is downward, that's an improvement the way I'm looking at it.

But for all these other cases, if you're down here We can give you these boosts up and you're not going to come back down because, you know, uh, uh, these other conditions are not, um, you know, necessarily neurodegenerative. They can be, if they're not addressed though. So by addressing them and getting you back on the right path, I mean, we're, we're stopping the probability or minimizing it that we can have a lot more of these other things down the road.

Like we look at, you know, multiple head injuries have a sevenfold increase of causing Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, you know, [00:55:00] but if that's non treated for treating those, you know, we're, we're much more minimizing the risk of that. And that's, that's what we're trying to do is not only help you for now, you know, But how can we continue to success, set you up for success down the road?

Because in plenty of times, you know, we can exceed your goals and now it's okay. Well, what else do you want to work on? We got that. So what else do we need if we need to come back down the road? Cause now you want to, you know, have a new performance goal and we're all for it. But otherwise, you know, what else can we do for you?

Because you're not just limited by, and we want to keep your balance. We want to get your eye movements there. What are some other things that's carrying over your daily living? Or your, your relationship issues or and the other thing is to how else we working in conjunction with your providers back home.

Who else do we need to work within this? If that's the case, you know, we definitely come manage with, you know, I said in our, in our clinic, functional medicine and trauma therapy. But if we need to do additional things. You know, we're always open and always for it. And that's again, it's creating that catered plan for that person

Joey: makes so much sense.

And I love that approach, like [00:56:00] how you can have those touch points in the future if you need them or want to improve or prevent a bad condition from getting worse. Um, but you're not necessarily signing up for life. I had a friend recently tell me that he was having some back problems and, uh, he wanted to go to a chiropractor, but he was like, eh, I don't know.

He kind of felt like he was going to be signing up for like a life of adjustments, like a lifetime of adjustments. But he went to a chiropractor who was, sounds like really competent and the chiropractor was like, no, we'll do two adjustments and you should be good to go. Um, so I love that approach instead of like, you know, They needed to pop a pill for the rest of your life or something like that, which not putting people down who have a condition that needs that.

But, um, but I love this approach better and no, so good. And on that note, I'm just curious if you have any success stories of patients you've worked with who maybe were in this one condition and then they were to work with you and then they're able to improve and be in this better spot in life.

Dr. Paul: And so I've been quite fortunate to work with a lot of different, uh, I said from athletes to Average bank, but I'll, [00:57:00] lemme think.

I, I would say the best one, I'll give a, it was a week that was pretty impactful, uh, uh, for me. And, and I was working in a, in a, clinic and, and, and then I start. In Florida where, um, I generally see two to three patients a week, which is kind of how you do it when you average out, you know, how many patients you're working with.

If you're doing an intensive thing, I mean, you're out with your an hour a day, you know, three patients automatically is, you know, 10 hours, not just your own time, which, which not opposed to work in the long days, but you know, for the patient now someone's coming at 7am and not leaving until four. Right.

So we limit to make sure that it's, it's also comfortable for patients, but in one particular week, I had an individual who was, uh, um, Uh, I'll just say ejected from a car after being hit by a train was found in a, in a tree pretty, pretty far away. And, uh, he was a younger, younger kid, an athlete and, and he was in a wheelchair, had no, couldn't, couldn't walk.

Maybe you would never know talking to him that there were any, abnormalities. So the fact that he was, he's in a wheelchair, had no, uh, vestibular postural tone. [00:58:00] So that was one. I had another patient who was, uh, uh, a fortune 500 CEO. perfectly healthy, perfectly functional, but at a fear that he was going to lose his job because of, you know, if the next kid coming up can do everything in 12 hours and can make faster decisions, the board's going to love him, especially if he's going to do it for a little bit cheaper rate.

And all of a sudden he's worried about, you know, working 18 hour days and burn it out and, you know, his health's tanking. Because he's inefficient in some of his decision making, and you know, we're looking at it from, you check the boxes, you know, no person really in the medical community would, I mean, you're, you could, I mean, you could Google this person, find him in seconds, you go, what, there can't be anything wrong with this person, he's, you know, one of the richest in the world, and there's no reason why there should be abnormalities, what's he here for, and then, on the other end, we had, uh, another person who was, a professional athlete, Um, but out of fear of retirement because they were concerned that in this last year, if they didn't have their performance goals the way they needed to be because [00:59:00] of some recent head injuries, um, that they weren't going to play again.

And unfortunately, we're going through some mental health issues because of that. Um, and also some of their head injuries, we know, unfortunately, can cause a lot of these, mental performance issues. And now they have not only the PTSD, but massive increases of anxiety. So you have three completely different patients that all went through the very same program of what are we here for?

What are your goals? And, um, you know, the, the, the fortune 500 CEO, he, he reached his performance goals and was able to drop his workload. And this is an individual who was drinking four pots of coffee a day. Down to one and, you know, working 18 hours a day back down to 12 to 14 hours, more efficient, you know, stock prices, you know, stockholder value all looks good.

The next individual, the, hockey player, you know, not only was able to get a great contract year. some of the suicidal ideations completely dropped. His relationship was improving because there was a fear of divorce in that one. And also we have now a person who, you know, went on to [01:00:00] have a very successful and probably, no, definitely an all star career, but probably even a Hall of Fame career.

And then this other individual who was, you know, hit by a train. Um, not only was he out of the wheelchair, but he walked out of the clinic on Friday. So, now you have, um, three completely different cases that are all being treated by functional neurology just by being able to look at the brain and analyze and realize if these areas are deficient.

Three completely different systems. Although actually you could argue that, you know, their motor systems or their emotional systems were all taxed, but their treatments look nothing alike. But the approach in the beginning was very similar. It was just start with a clean slate and apply it as need be.

And that was. to be fair, it's kind of a typical week of just, it's, it's those types of success stories I've been fortunate to have, um, because the foundation, um, you know, my colleagues laid out and, and did a lot of groundwork and improvements in diagnostics and everything. And, you know, very fortunate to be not only at the cutting edge, but really on the receiving end of it, that, you know, I wasn't, uh, I was only [01:01:00] involved in the creation of a couple pieces of technology in my career.

But I've been able to, uh, to really stand on the, on the shoulders with a lot of them that have laid a great foundation and education and just fortunately taught me how to apply it in a way that allowed for a lot of this. So kind of also shows that once again, it's clean slate, everything's catered to you, whatever you need, it's, you're, you're, you're not alone, number one.

but you're, you're very unique, but you're not unique to the sense that you can't be helped. You're probably seen it before. And these areas of the brain exist, and if you know how to look at it and understand it. Okay, pretty comfortable environment to where you can use the technologies or everything.

It's so basic pretty quickly.

Joey: Wow. Incredible. Super inspiring stories. Amazing results. And I want to ask you a million and one questions, but a couple of final questions before we close down here for the initial assessment. Like if someone was thinking about doing this therapy tomorrow, I'm just curious on the cost side, you don't have to give maybe your specific cost, but generally if they were to go to a [01:02:00] functional neurologist anywhere in the United States, for example, what would the ballpark cost be for something like that?

And does insurance typically cover it?

Dr. Paul: That's where it gets complicated, but not in the United, in other countries. You know, sometimes we're dealing with some of the socialized medicine, you know, there it could be covered, but the wait times could be long. So it was interesting enough, we, I saw, still to this day, I've probably seen more patients or very similar from other countries than the United States, just because they were generally looking for that holistic approach, but weren't able to access it because of their own government limitations.

In the United States, We can get access to it, but payment gets a little bit limited. Insurance will cover some of these things. A lot of times though, it's, you know, it's very dependent upon the why and everything. So a lot of the diagnostics are not covered by general insurances. They will, but they pay a small portion of them.

And then a lot of the other clinics, especially when you're doing intensives, you know, the way insurance billing works, you can only bill for one type of those services per day. And then you're usually limited by how many [01:03:00] times per week. So with all that being said. A lot of the functional neurologists, uh, and even, that's why a lot of the functional medicine docs in those areas are cash driven and it, and I promise you it's not solely for lucrative value, um, to be, to be candid and transparent, it's just because of the fact that you can give a lot, more to a patient, by charging those, By charging certain rates than you could buy insurance and actually we've done a cost analysis of it where we've looked at You know, what's the average person with concussion?

Because that's a higher population of patients. What does the average concussion cost? um a person and uh You know, we were able to see about 250 260k between your years of lost wages job performance, things of that nature. Um, so when we're looking at paying fractions of that for three to five days with the success rates we know we'll be able to have and somewhat of it, it's, it's almost no brainer, at least when you look at that way, [01:04:00] but it is, it is still a cost.

Um, you know, fluctuate and they're, they're dependent upon, you know, each individual one, but I, I would, I would say probably your, your average intensive treatment, I would say would probably range from. Three to 10, 000 for a week. If I was to be, if I was to put a number on it and just be fair, but I, but everything is, is dependent upon, um, where you go, what the locations are and availability and everything.

But I mean, when you compare it to what the average cost of or some of the other areas and your insurance premium is going up, it's actually is a much cheaper, just that, um, majority of them are, are generally cash based for that.

Joey: Yeah, no, it makes so much sense. And no, the investment side of it as well. I think a lot of people only sometimes will only think of.

Um, what they're giving up, but man, you get so much out of it. Yeah. Like you said, when you do the analysis of like me being able to make more money and being able to just live like a better life, that investment, especially. Looking at the way we use our money now, it's like, well I spend this on that car, [01:05:00] that thing.

And it's like, is that really making your life better? Adding a lot of value to life? And for honest it's not. And so things like this I think are compared to that are are wise investment. So that makes sense. And are you able to do like an initial assessment with someone without committing to the intensive or is it kind of a all or nothing?

Model. Oh,

Dr. Paul: no, absolutely. The way and we were just like this. We talked about before creating a catered program to them based upon their condition. What we see on exam. We still base it upon their schedule as well. Now, generally, I travel and have a few different jobs between the U. S. and Canada. So, so around.

So I have worked, but I also work in an intensive environment just because of the fact that, it's general, it's created a better success rate for patients for that population. however, If we're going through an analysis and, you know, again, everything's very transparent. If we do an exam, whereas I don't think we're going to be able to help you, this would be more appropriate.

Or I know we originally talked about setting aside five days, but maybe two or three would [01:06:00] be more beneficial. Then we're very transparent with that. That's, that's what it is. Or if we're at day three and we think, look, truthfully, we can knock this out of the ballpark two more days. And we have those conversations.

So you're not, um, automatically contracted into just once in just because you picked up the phone and talk to me or anybody or the functional neurologist. They have to see that you're automatically locked into those treatment plans. Everything is very individualized, um, and catered. So it's, it's working by the schedule.

And in the cases where. You know, you do have a schedule where you can't do an intensive model. There's always ways to work around it. Things just might take a couple more weeks or months, but it can always be worked and catered to you.

Joey: No, it's really helpful. Thanks for going through all that. And for anyone who isn't aware of this, I have friends who work in the medical world and work at clinics and things and um, dealing with insurance is like a job in itself.

And so this movement towards like cash payments is really wise in a lot of senses and actually can lead to a higher quality of care. Um, because you're not [01:07:00] dealing with these insurance companies and fitting into this box of like, well, that's not a diagnostic that's like in this, you know, 50 year old manual or whatever it is.

So anyway, it's, uh, it's exciting to see kind of where Um, this field is heading and I'm really interested to learn more and maybe I'll need to do some treatments myself, which is awesome. So I did want to ask you, um, if there are any like maybe common myths or misperceptions, misconceptions of this field, of functional neurology.

Dr. Paul: I think some of them in the beginning, I would say the began something to say it's an instant cure all I'm going to be done in two days because he said he got that person on the wheelchair. That's that's not every single case, although to be fair, it's a good majority, but that's not every case and you should never go home thinking I know this is going to be a guaranteed home run 100%.

Nothing is ever that when if anyone gives you a guarantee, you know, you should you should run pretty quick. But one of the other things that you should look at, I think, which is a misconception of functional neurology is that. You know, I think a lot of them will look at, especially from [01:08:00] the, the medical community and some of the original papers that came out, uh, you know, trying to, uh, bash it as a placebo or things of this nature, you know, uh, one of my, founding, uh, member, Dr.

Carrick said on, uh, Connie Chung, you know, if, uh, if this is placebo, then we're doing a pretty good job at it, but if, uh, if you're looking at it from that sense, Um, you know, one of the things that sometimes are the misconceptions are that, you know, I've been to PT or I've been to OT before and it hasn't worked.

So what's different about your vestibular technique versus this and that? And it's, again, it's not a comparison of one versus the other, but in the sense it's the application of it. When you're catering a program to you specifically, and not just your condition, you're catering or your limitations of insurance, then you have as many, options as you want, whatever you can create.

And we're not short on technology. We're not short on, [01:09:00] um, space and ability to, to do those things. So we can create an environment for you. I mean, we've taken Athletes onto their field of sport and designed therapies around there where, okay, we're maybe we're trying to do these types of eye movements from this direction, left to right.

Okay, well, you don't sit in a desk all day. So we need to create an environment for you. Okay, we're going on the ice. We're going to the football field. We're going to hit baseballs and so on. You know, you can create it for you. So because of that, again, when you're not bound by the limitations of different insurances, environment, or technology, then, then everything for you is different.

So just because you've been to one technique before, you tried talk therapy and it didn't work, you are not alone. You are not bound. You're not stuck. It's not over. I promise you there's plenty more stones to uncover and a whole lot more resources available.

Joey: That's tough. If someone wanted to work with you, how would they get in touch with you or maybe another functional neurologist in their area if you don't serve that [01:10:00] area?

Dr. Paul: Yeah, of course. So, um, for myself, I'm always open. You deal with me. I'm kind of the one man show for that one work for a few different companies in neurology and neurotechnology. And as I mentioned before, even a psilocybin mushroom company up in Canada. But if you want to get ahold of me directly. Um, always open.

You can just email me Dr, uh, Dr. Link, L I N K 1 8 at gmail. com. You know, that's me. Anytime you have a consult or you have any questions about navigating the system or finding a, you know, provider near you, always open for that. Uh, there's two other great resources. I'm sure they won't mind if I share this.

Uh, A-A-C-N-B, American College of A CNB, the American chiropractic neurology board.org and A CFN. Um, those are, there's two different ways to, um, sort of become a functional neurologist. There's the diplomat and the Fellowship Avenue, um, and both of those options will give you a list of doctor locators near you in not only the United States, but.

Um, other countries as well. So you'll be able to [01:11:00] find a functional neurologist near you. there's also the last one, you know, no, um, you know, no financial connection is also that the Kerrigan Institute website is a tremendous source, um, and resource for you to be able to look up and not only learn a little bit more about functional neurology, but not just, and patients.

But also if you're a provider, want to get a little bit more information on courses or what I can do and how can you learn a little bit more about I've movements, you know, they're incredible, but honestly, I mean, 24 seven, if you ever want to reach out to me, emails, uh, some of the easier ways, and I always open to have a conversation about, you know, would you, Um, be an appropriate patient of mine.

can I help you find a neurologist near you? It'd be more than, uh, helpful to be an advocate for that because, I think one of the things is, you know, service back to humankind is, again, as Dr. Kerrig always said, so I think we should always live by that. So if anything is, never stuck or you have a question, need a resource, Always happy to be there.

Joey: Really appreciate it. Uh, Dr. Paul, you're the man. It's been great learning from you and I'm excited to see where your practices, your careers, all the companies you're [01:12:00] involved with goes. And, um, I know there's really amazing things ahead. So I'm glad that you're able to come on and speak to the, our audience and we're better for it.

So thank you so much. I wanted to. Give you the final word. I'm just curious what, uh, final advice or encouragement you give to everyone listening, especially, you know, young people who come from broken families and are maybe feeling broken and stuck in life, what's, what's your final advice?

Dr. Paul: Final advice and I could speak, uh, you know, truthfully on this one is you're not alone, you know, quite a lot of times that you feel as though you're stuck and you know, you're in the, you know, woe is me, it's, it can't, it's always going to be this way.

It's never going to change. Um, you realize a lot of times that the people around you that you thought either didn't care so much or maybe didn't quite know. A lot of times they're great resources, but maybe you can't always find that professional. Maybe you reached out to, um, you know, a therapist, originally a physician didn't work well.

That doesn't mean that it's always that way. And it doesn't always necessarily mean that I'm the right fit for you. I mean, if you don't like to hear things in a, [01:13:00] you know, Canadian accent, I'm probably not the person for you. But if you reach out and you realize that there's a lot of people that are resources, a lot of times they're closer to you than you realize, and they also went through similar things that they don't even share.

And they found resources that they clip close to the vest that once you really get to talking, you realize you have a lot more in common than you realize. And you're going to be able to see those resources come to fruition pretty quickly. So I promise you're not only are you not alone, um, but there's also a lot more hope available rather quickly.

then you realize, you know, from. Uh, not only functional neurology, trauma therapy, functional medicine, and any of the classic avenues, um, honestly, this podcast, you know, looking back, you have, you know, a tremendous resource here that if you look at the divorce rates, the rates of, you know, failed jobs, and, you know, the marriages, the changes in economy, you know, there's, there's a lot of struggles out there.

There's a lot of resources available to you right now. Take full [01:14:00] advantage of them and, um, you know, never be afraid to reach out. that's how I would end it after a truthful thank you for for allowing me to come on. Um, and also more so thank you for all you do in creating this and, you know, starting what was what you thought was going to be sort of one environment and realizing you the outreach that you have as a great example, you're reaching a tremendous vast audience that you thought was going to be this one subset population.

Now you're out doing that. So, you know, thank you for all you do and bringing this together as this resource.

Joey: If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more.

And all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma you've experienced in your family and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. Life. And so if you want to view all the resources [01:15:00] that we offer for yourself, or maybe someone that, you know, you can just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Feel free to even just take 30 seconds now to message them. I promise you, they will be so grateful that you did. In closing, always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#126: Former Porn Actress: Over 90% of People in Porn are from Broken Families | Bree Solstad

Pending! Stay tuned.

Bree Solstad went from being a top-selling porn actress to quitting her job and completely turning her life around. That transformation started because of a trip to Italy. 

In this episode, she tells us about that and answers questions like:

• What led you to pornography in the first place?

• How did your broken family and abandonment from your father play into that?

• What percentage of performers in porn come from divorced or broken families? It’ll shock you

• What has helped you begin to heal your wounds? 

• What would you say to people who believe that porn is harmful and not wrong?

Visit Bree’s Etsy shop, Ave Maria Every Day

Follow Bree on X (former Twitter) and Instagram 

Listen to the Healing Sexual Brokenness series

For Men: Buy the Book: Forged: 33 Days Toward Freedom by Jason Evert and Matt Fradd

For Women: Join a Magdala Ministries group

Watch Sound of Freedom

Visit FightTheNewDrug.org

Visit BlackstoneFilms.co

For help with suicidal thoughts or behaviors, call or text 988, or go here.

Links & Resources

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

  [00:00:00] We normally don't start episodes like this, but I wanted to issue a little bit of a trigger warning because this episode does contain mature content. And so if you're listening around other people, especially kids, uh, we definitely recommend putting in earphones. But with that, my guest today went from being a top selling porn actress to quitting her job and completely turning around her life.

Her amazing transformation started on a trip to Italy. And so in this episode, she tells us all about that and answers questions like, What led you to pornography in the first place? How did your broken family and the abandonment from your father play into that decision? What, what percentage would you say of people in the porn industry come from divorce and broken families?

You're going to be shocked by her answer. Uh, what has helped you to begin to heal yourself? Your wounds heal your brokenness. Do you ever feel tempted to go back into that life? And what advice would you give to a girl who's maybe considering getting into pornography or feel stuck in it? And then finally, what would you say to people who believe that porn is not harmful or wrong?

Such an [00:01:00] inspiring story. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken family. So you can break that cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 126. We're so happy that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard a lot of great feedback. One listener said this, I was brought to tears with your podcast. I agree. There are no resources out there for kids of divorced parents. My parents had no specific reason for their divorce, but now that I'm about 30, I'm looking back and seeing how huge of an impact this has had.

on my life. Love that this leans into Christian principles. Some good came out of my story, too. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's [00:02:00] episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. In a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of Millennials said video is their top content choice.

It's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that? Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know, you need to create video content, but there's so many barriers to doing it. Like you don't know how, you don't know who to hire.

You don't have the time to learn and so on. And can kind of leave you feeling, uh, Overwhelmed to the point where you just kind of give up on the idea and go back to what you know, what's comfortable, but that's where Blackstone Films can help you. They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel.

They can create things like trailers, promo videos and commercials, uh, social media, videos, documentaries, fundraising videos, uh, and even courses. We actually produced two courses with them, two video courses, and we just had an excellent experience. And so whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about helping you not just create video content, [00:03:00] but create a clear win for your business or ministry, such as fundraise for your ministry, sell a course, get leads for your business, get students to sign up for your school, promote your event, and so much more.

Blackstone has reached millions around the globe with their videos, and they can help you too. And so if you want to view their past projects and the services that they offer, just contact them. Uh, go to Blackstonefilms. co, not com. Again, that's Blackstonefilms. co or just click on the link in the show notes.

My guest today is Brie Solstad. After a past full of regrets, she converted to Christianity. She was a former Top selling porn actress and producer who had a radical conversion to Christ that began in the Catholic churches of Italy. After having a profound experience at the tomb of St. Clair of Assisi, Brie's sinful life began to come to an end.

Brie quit all pornography, gave up her income, changed her life, and officially joined the Catholic church at [00:04:00] Easter in 2024. Brie now handcrafts one of a kind, in person, porn. heirloom quality, rosaries, and other Christian jewelry on a humble little Etsy shop called Ave Maria every day. We'll put the link in the show notes for you guys.

Bri is known on Twitter and Instagram as Miss B converted and has been utilizing her rapidly growing social media presence to share her growing faith and convince others to turn away from the plague of pornography. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm really glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this.

this episode and for even Christians listening who, who might object to some of what Brie believes. Again, my challenge is just to listen with an open mind too. And I think, you know, kind of rejoice or revel in the fact that she completely turned her life around. With that, here's my chat [00:05:00] with Brie. Brie, so good to have you.

Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's, uh, just an honor to be here. I'm so excited to just dive into your story because your transformation is just incredible. I'm so inspired by it and I love, you know, hearing more about that from anyone who's had any sort of story like yours. And so I want to get to that.

But before we get there, I'd like to start with your former life. What led you to pornography and sex work? Well, honestly, I've been trying to pinpoint like, what is the linchpin in my life that, you know, put me on this path? And I'm still not really sure exactly what it was. I know a lot of it has to do with the fact that I was raised with a single mother as an only child.

I didn't really have the dynamic of both people in my life, and that really trickled into so much. I think just having these, you know, These thoughts, maybe even in the back of my mind, my [00:06:00] subconscious of like feelings of abandonment that, you know, my father didn't want me. That sort of thing. And then really it was just the priorities in my life.

I never made God my number one priority, but I also never made myself my number one priority. Like I never really considered much of my own self worth. And from there it just spiraled out of control, you know, and I look back and it's almost like I was telling myself, this is how every 20, you know, 20 year old lives, you know, going from meaningless job to meaningless job and then just partying all the time, um, being reckless, being promiscuous.

And really, I think that a great deal of what contributed to my abuse of alcohol, my abuse of my body, my degradation, my feelings of not being worthy, I think really stemmed from when I went away to college. I [00:07:00] suddenly felt this newfound freedom, if you will, and not freedom that you think like, oh, I'm away from home and I get to make my own decisions.

No. My whole life being with a single parent, only child, my whole life was that kind of freedom where I always made my own decisions. I was extremely independent. I had to be. My mother worked all the time. I was alone all the time. I was a latchkey kid. That's why I really like crafts and animals and plants.

Like those are things that you can do by yourself. And then when I went away to school, it was suddenly like, I don't have to be the other adult in the And I didn't even realize any of this until later. You know, it was just ingrained in me and I suddenly was free to make my own decisions, but free in a way where I had this safety net of, you know, I live in a dorm room.

There are other people who are partying, uh, like they're skipping class. It seems like this could be okay for me. And this is lots of fun, you know, just having no boundaries, no [00:08:00] limits. It seemed like, like I was just really, really happy when I truly wasn't. No, it's so good. Thanks for sharing all that. And it's so fascinating.

You know, our audiences, you know, comes from, you know, broken families and there's so many wounds there. But one of the things I learned from Dr. Bob Schutz is that at the root of every wound really is a deprivation of love. And so, And so it's only natural that we would seek some form of love, even if it's not real, to fill that void.

And, you know, I think that the partying, like the seeming acceptance by the group of friends, because I fell into that when I was younger too, it feels good. It's appealing. We feel like we belong. And especially for people like us who maybe didn't feel like we belonged even in our own families because they were so broken, it can be really attractive to kind of go Go into that lifestyle.

And so, yeah, this whole thing of coming from a broken family, it's so interesting how so many of us, you know, kind of look for love in all the wrong places. And then we even, and I know we're going to get more into this, but we even sexualize our pain. We [00:09:00] sexualize what we dealt with. One of the fascinating statistics on this comes from Dr.

Patrick Carnes. I've mentioned this on the show before. He's a expert on sexual addiction, and he found that 87 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction or compulsion come from a broken family. Almost 90%. Which is just like, it's mind blowing, but like you said, it does make sense. So it's not surprising.

Like, I think when I look at my, um, younger self and, you know, when I hear your story, it's like, it makes sense. Like, it makes sense given what you've been through. It's not okay, but it makes sense given what you've been through. And, I mean, like I said, I don't know what the exact linchpin is and, you know, my mother raised me in the best way that she could, but there was definitely something lacking.

So then when this new opportunity came about, I just jumped on it. Like the idea of, you know, working from home and making a bunch of money and, and it just happens to be pornography, but you know, whatever. That was kind of, um, where my morals were at that point in my life. Because you had kind of walked down that path [00:10:00] of you know partying and pleasure seeking And it really kind of led you to a point that it almost was like a Not too big of a jump at that point.

Is that right? Yeah, so it really just Accumulated it began in college and then continued accumulating this addiction or this lifestyle Which actually then ultimately led to an addiction to alcohol or you know The alcohol addiction is always in there somewhere, but it was like the catalyst that then drove me to admitting my alcoholism.

Um, I mean, there's so many things in my life that we could unpack. Like I didn't even, I'm just, you know, throwing this on you now that, Oh yeah, I'm also a recovering alcoholic. Um, but, um, but that doesn't really have much to do with my conversion story. So I haven't really mentioned that. But one thing I want to tell you specifically that I haven't told anybody else when I was in college, I was engaged and participated when I went to class, but partying and especially drinking and sleeping [00:11:00] around.

We're my number one priorities to the point where, even though I loved going to class, I loved learning, I loved studying environmental science was my major partying, just took over everything else so that like I couldn't get up. I was too hungover to go to class. So then, and then I started skipping class and then more and more and more, and it just became more and more acceptable.

And the thing that I'd like to tell you and your listeners is that one thing I'm truly ashamed of is I went to a Lutheran university and I got a scholarship there from my church. These people, this elderly couple, they spent their retirement fund sending me to college and I completely wasted that opportunity and that's one of the things that, you know, I've, I've really struggled with that decision that I made and the, the way that I just completely wasted not only like my time, my energy, [00:12:00] but their money also.

It's a decision that. I would urge others to take seriously. If you're given an opportunity like that, don't waste it. Yeah, no. Thanks for sharing that too, and No, your transformation is so beautiful. We'll get to that shortly, but it makes so much sense again Everything that you went through kind of where you landed and I remember talking to in another interview Jay Stringer Who's this awesome author and therapist?

He was talking about this whole experience of coming from you know, a broken family and enduring trauma like you did and yeah He says the first experience often is one of fragmentation where we just feel really broken. We feel like our life is not cohesive It's not integrated. It's just so broken Broken into pieces and such a mess, really, to put it in simple terms.

And that usually leads us to seek out some form of numbing ourselves because the pain is too much to bear. And so, you know, like you said, in your story, it was alcohol, it was partying, it was sex, all that stuff. And my story was principally, you know, pornography and other sexual sins. Um, it was just like, I needed something to numb the pain.

That was my way of coping. [00:13:00] Precisely. Getting out of this reality here and now. Like there was an easier, it was an escape. It was a way to get away from just the difficulties of facing, you know, my parents splitting apart, just all the drama and sadness that came with that. And, um, and then that leads to, so again, we started with fragmentation, that brokenness, then we led to numbing, which looks different for different people, and then finally you kind of end up in isolation where it's just this intense loneliness where like, man, I regret what I've done, but I'm still feeling the pain.

And I feel like no one's there for me. There's no one there to like, as Jay Singer says, like, catch my tears, to hold my face, to see me like go through this and just love me through it. And so then we get in the cycle, we then feel more broken and fragmented. We then need to know more and then we'd feel a bit more isolated.

And then we just go down into this endless pit. Does that seem to describe your story? Yeah. Definitely in terms of my addictions, in terms of my bad decisions, but also in terms of producing [00:14:00] pornography where like it's, it's not an addiction. Um, it's not something for which like women need a support group, but it can be very isolating.

It can be, You know, intoxicating and you can easily feel trapped. I remember, you know, when I considered giving up this life, this career, I was really scared. I was really nervous about the money, but then I started thinking, okay, well let's consider, you know, you don't have to go on these extravagant trips or buy these.

ridiculously overpriced shoes anymore. That's perfectly fine. I'm willing to give up all that because of, you know, the happiness that I found within myself and the relationship that I have with God now. But let's even, let's take all of that out of the equation and say that, okay, you can get like a, just an average job, you know, like at a garden center or something.

That'd be fun, fruitful, pun intended, but who's going to hire you? Like, what are you going to write on the application? Like, forget about seeming professional and showing up with a resume. Okay. [00:15:00] Like, even if you're just going to pencil in on some application, they've Xeroxed for you. What are you going to say?

There's nothing you can't, you can't even use some flowery euphemism, like, you know, artistic entertainer, or like, that's just going to lead to more questions and you're trapped because you feel like you've done this for so long that you don't know how to do anything else. And then, you know, tragically, a lot of people in this industry also feel like they've done this for so long and it kind of, and it weighs on them and it seeps into their subconscious to the point where then they don't feel like they're worthy of doing anything else.

Like, this is not only all that they can do, but this is all that they can do. They're trapped in so many different ways. And I think that addiction is similar, but both, you know, are about reexamining your priorities, reexamining your life, and asking yourself, like, is this really what I want? Is this really, you know, helpful to me?

And then also being honest with yourself, which is hard to do when you're in the throes of addiction, especially. How many [00:16:00] years did you end up doing pornography for? And I'm curious, like, were there regular intervals where you felt like, man, I don't know if I should be doing this. I need to get out of it.

I was in the industry for just under 10 years and honestly, no, it really wasn't until I started going to church regularly that I even considered leaving the industry. That is something that I think will come in time. I'm still like, Unpacking a lot of things that have gone on in my life and and it's kind of funny It's like almost a timeline of like things that I regret and they come up almost in the same Timeline that they occurred or that I did them and I think I'm not quite to the point where I'm ready to really examine the effects of what I did through pornography because at the time I know that Like, now, I, I regret what I did, but at the time, I didn't consider that it was wrong at all.[00:17:00]

I would use my money for myself, but also, like, I was able to, you know, buy my mom really extravagant Mother's Day gifts, or, you know, send my godmother a bouquet for Mother's Day. The re It's funny, I mention this now, because it was just recently Mother's Day, and I remember, and like, now, I'm like, I don't have enough money to send them these big, huge bouquets anymore.

But that's okay, you know? And my godmother doesn't know. But my mom understands that I'm not making as much money anymore. And it's not like they would expect these things. But it's just, it's also kind of ridiculously humorous to think that I was buying these Mother's Day bouquets for these women in my life with the money that I made from pornography.

And I never considered that it was ridiculous. I never considered that my life was just kind of ridiculous, like, full of sin, full of pride, full of vanity, and full of loneliness, full of hopelessness. [00:18:00] You feel trapped in so many different ways, and this is yet another way. Like, you feel trapped mentally, because your mind is telling you one thing, but also telling you a different thing.

And it's so easy to justify. I know this from my addictions with alcohol, as well as, like, all the detrimental things that I did throughout my career in pornography. It's so easy to justify that this is fine. Or even just, I won't think about it now. I'll think about it tomorrow. And just move on. But I urge, I urge people not to do that.

I urge people, really, to just take an examination of your consciousness. Take an examination of your feelings, also. That's something that I really didn't do enough. And be honest with yourself. Are you actually happy? And I read this in a self help book once, and the book itself wasn't really that good. I don't even remember the title of it, but there's one part that was really good, and it said something like, ask yourself, what would my life look like if I stopped drinking?

If I stopped producing pornography? If I stopped [00:19:00] watching pornography? And then really think about that. And again, it's easy to lie to yourself. But I think that most people would say that their lives look so much better without their addiction, without this overwhelming sin. And we're, we're all sinners continually all the time.

Um, some more than others, but that's not a reason to continue doing it. That's not a justification. You're not alone, but at the same time, like expect more from yourself. You know try to do better. I'm not really sure what the question was. Yeah. No. No, I love that advice. No, that's so good Yeah No I love that advice because I think you're right a lot of people and perhaps this is what you were going through when you're in The midst of this is we kind of get in this autopilot Mode in life or survival mode like we get these opportunities in life We kind of walk through those doors and then our life is the way it is and we kind of have this feeling that it's Always just gonna be this way And we don't think we can really grow or improve and our life can get better.

And so we just kind of continue on that path. Because change [00:20:00] is hard. Transforming is hard. You know, it's not easy to go from being, you know, out of shape to getting into really good shape. It's not easy to, you know, go from, you know, Maybe not having skills that are, can be paid a lot of money to getting those skills to being paid a lot of money.

Not to say that's like, needs to be a goal for everyone, but just giving it as an example. And so, um, it's hard and it's a lot easier, it's a lot more comfortable not to do that. And like, you know, you said before too, there's this question of like, worth. It's like, well, You know, I, even if I maybe could pull that off, which I don't really think I could, you know, I'm really, I'm not worth it.

I'm, I'm not someone who, you know, people would look at and say like, Oh yeah, they're definitely going to be able to do that and make it. And they're definitely, you know, have a lot of confidence and dignity or whatever we want to call it. So I think it makes so much sense. And the thing you said about justifying too, it's a fascinating in, uh, when you build a home.

Um, I guess this is in like, um, architecture and in carpentry when a wall is crooked, like, let's say one of the studs is like, you know, the wall is kind of leaning over the, the action of straightening it [00:21:00] as justifying it. And so in life, like we only feel the need to justify things that aren't like, uh, on the straight and narrow.

And so, like you were saying, I think that's a good, a little litmus test too, for things. It's like, Do you feel the need to justify the way you're living your life right now? Do you feel the need to, you know, say that it's okay when in reality it might not be? And so I think that there's so many lessons in what you said.

And the final thing I was going to say was, when it comes to the shift out of that industry, my goodness, how scary. Like seriously, I think that that can't be overstated. It's like, this is literally, especially since that was pretty much after college onward, that was what you knew that was your job, that was your skill set.

And so going on to do something out, you're truly just starting from zero in a lot of ways, you know, maybe there's some, Lessons and virtues that you already had baked into you that you can use but my goodness that is scary I've heard it similar with like, you know, like Protestant pastors who convert to Catholicism just as one example You know They literally have been running a church their livelihood comes from that their friendships like their family even [00:22:00] and then they you know convert to Catholicism, let's say.

And then it's like, well, now I don't have a job. I might not even have a family. I don't have a church. Like, it's like devastating. So there are those sorts of careers that I think it'd be really, really difficult to shift out of. So yeah. Any thoughts on that before we continue on? Well, it's especially frustrating for me because in the industry that I was, I wasn't just a performer.

I was a producer. Like my favorite thing was editing videos and doing crazy things with like green screen and special effects and that sort of thing. I took a class at a community college for these things and got really into it and I'm really good at it and it's lots of fun. But that's another frustrating element is like when I was Going through my conversion, I was watching a lot of videos online and I was thinking, well, maybe like for the, for example, like the Catholic hippie, she sometimes plugs rosaries, like, um, promotes them, people who sell them.

So I thought, [00:23:00] And we'll get into that, but I now sell rosaries and um, I thought, okay, maybe we could do an exchange like she could promote my rosary business and I could edit her videos for her. And then I was like, I can't send her any of my work. What am I going to do? Like, just, okay, pretend like I'm wearing like all my clothes and that I'm saying things that are completely different and tell me what you think.

Like, that's not going to work. Can't do that, yeah. I can't expose this woman to what I did. And so that, yeah, that's another frustrating thing is, I mean, I think you do pick up some skills that are like, that could be. beneficial in the real world. But again, you, you can't use them. You can't apply them to anything because of your past.

Yeah. Okay. No, I get that. You, it's hard. You can't show any sort of like track record cause you want to leave that life behind and yeah, totally makes sense. And thanks for sharing all of that. And I want to go back to your family situation. I'm just curious, um, Yeah, just over the years, the struggles and kind of brokenness, [00:24:00] wounds you've, you've dealt with when it comes to just the fact that your dad was absent from your life.

You mentioned abandonment and things like that. Um, yeah, just curious if you had anything to add on top of what we've already talked about when it comes to just how that experience contributed to this life and yeah, how hard that was too. I think that a lot of my story, it's hard for me to say that I completely regret everything because everything led me to where I am now.

And to have such a great appreciation for my mindset, for the love that I feel for myself, for others, It's from adversity that these things came about, but really what I think, what I think about a lot is another person's life, and how great it would be if they could skip all of that. And I think that for me coming, like being, coming from my situation, my home life, there weren't all that many opportunities.

to [00:25:00] better my situation. But I think that being around people who do have, you know, a secure home life, who do have confidence in themselves, who think highly of themselves, who, who have God in their life. I think that that's something that's really beneficial. And also, just not feeling so alone. I know that, I mean, you were, in some cases, abandoned.

Like, in a lot of cases, you know, I think that it's harder sometimes, maybe if you're used to having a father figure or both parents, and then suddenly there's this shift and there's this change, and like, what did I do, what did I, But for me, I never knew my father. So, and he wasn't somebody who my mother respected.

Uh, we actually referred to him as the sperm donor as I was growing up. And it was kind of like a little joke. But I now realize that even that little joke has had an effect on how I view men. How I viewed relationships. How I viewed [00:26:00] intimacy, like all these things have come about because I was raised in a single parent home and I'm not sure that they, that that, I mean, I know that that's not the only factor, but if you're in that sort of situation, like don't be afraid to ask for help.

With your child and, or, you know, or your own life and bringing more faith and more goodness into your life. I think that, that, that always helps. I couldn't agree more. For me, the kind of pivots in my life, the times where I was able to kind of turn a corner, break through, whatever you want to call it, came one when I got new friends.

You know, I've heard your friends are like an elevator. They either take you up or take you down. And the friends I was hanging around with, they were certainly taking me down. They were like my sports buddies and I loved them, you know, and I still look back on them. I don't like hate them by any means. I think that they came from really broken situations too.

And they were just like caught up in this culture that was like, you know, into pornography. They were into like, we were so young too. Like we're like 11. year old [00:27:00] kids, you know, and, and that was my, you know, that was the time I was exposed to pornography. And so 11, 12, 13 year old kids, and just kind of sucked up by this culture.

And for me, for some reason, I always knew that I wanted to be happy. And I knew that that wasn't making me happy. I knew that it was working to numb pain, that it was kind of an escape, like we discussed, but I knew it wasn't ultimately making me happy. And so I met these new friends, and these new friends were like, really happy people, like not fake happy, but like genuinely joyful people.

And I was like, whatever it is you have, like, I just want that. And I noticed like when I spent more time with them, I was happier. And when I spent more time with my sports buddies, I was more miserable. And so I just started spending more time with them. And I was honestly like, I was afraid for them to know kind of like the real me.

So I would just kind of fake it till I made it. And so, you know, I, I certainly just started to adopt their life. And, and that like really, really helped. And those friends were these. Christians, Catholic Christians, who were really, you know, on fire for their faith, and they were, you know, just, just like good people.

And, uh, so anyway, I started to be like them, [00:28:00] to build virtue, to pray, to just learn my faith, seek out God's plan for my life, all that stuff. And, and that really, really helped. But the other thing I was going to say, just to second what you said about, um, maybe speaking to parents or young people who are coming from broken families, um, the mentors in your life can fill the void of a father who abandoned you.

And it's never going to fill it in a perfect way. Like you're never going to be able to go find another man in your life. Who's going to perfectly be your dad. Like you only have one biological father. And when that's person's ripped from your life, for whatever reason, it's hard, you know, it leaves a wound.

Um, but my goodness, have I experienced so much healing through just the men in my life who've kind of taken me under their wing, who mentored me, who've guided me through the challenges that I face, who've really affirmed me, just showing me that, you know, especially when I thought maybe I was worthless or You know, that I thought whatever struggles I was dealing with at the time were kind of, they defined me.

They would come in and say, no, no, no, you're so much more than that. And they would just affirm me, you know, and who I am. So anyway, that, that was like really helpful for me too. So just, I just love the advice you said. And I think it's so important to surround [00:29:00] yourself with good people, both in terms of people beside you, your friends, but also people ahead of you who are mentors, who can kind of show you like, you know, what, How you need to live.

It's so, so valuable, especially if you didn't have that in your family. Yeah, I agree. Definitely. I want to, um, get to your transformation more, but I'm just curious. I wanted your opinion on this. If you had to guess, what percentage of people in sex work and pornography do you think come from divorced and broken families?

Meaning, you know, their parents were divorced or they had a really dysfunctional home life. I'd say probably, like, 95%. At least in the 90s. Yeah, I think that it takes a certain kind of person to set aside what society deems as acceptable and be somebody completely different and I think that a lot of you know It's something I say a lot when like in regards to really horrible people monsters aren't born They're created so and I think that that can be said for for, you know, a lot of [00:30:00] different things that plague us.

They're not something that, that we're born with. They're something that has accumulated because of, you know, something that happened or something that we did. And I think that, you know, most of the women who are in this industry, okay, well, I should speak to what I know. For me and for the friends that I had, We were, like, kind of caring people, and um, nice women, and, I mean, I don't, I don't think I was a bad person, but the work that I did, and without going into too much detail, the meaner I was, the more they liked it, and the more they would pay me.

So then, it's kind of like, um, I can't remember his name, the scientist who rang the bell. Um, and the dog slobbered and Pavlov Pavlov. Yes. Thank you. You know, it's kind of like something that you can't help But then actually start to become this person who they want you to be Because [00:31:00] the more selfish, the more egotistical, the more bratty, the more vain I was, the more, like, offensive I was, or, um, narcissistic, especially, like, throwing other people under the bus for my own gain, the more that I would, you know, Be acclaimed, not just by clients either, but also other women in the industry.

And so you're in that, you know, continuously spinning wheel. You're eventually going to start to feel these ways and you're going to start to think this. And, and I think that's something to be. Cognizant of but also just to know that these sort of things can happen to you that within you know the things that you surround yourself with those sports friends or you know people who are really into Fancy shoes and that's what will form who you are and and I think it's important to remember that really Couldn't agree more.

And thanks for going into that. I think it's important to [00:32:00] mention, I know some people kind of tiptoe around these subjects of like pornography, but I think it's important we talk about it because there's so many lessons in your story and what you were saying. And when it comes to like, just to push into that a little bit, um, when it comes to, The whole, how our sexuality becomes so distorted and perverted, like the deeper we get down that path.

It's so, it's fascinating, it's sad, it's really interesting to kind of think about and study. I know Jay Stringer, who I mentioned, um, in episode 102, if you guys want to check that out, he has so much insight into this. He studied 4, 000 people who struggle with sexual addictions or compulsions, and he just really went deep into it.

And one of the things that he found is like, my goodness, your sexual desires, your fantasies, even he, they even looked at pornography searches, um, in their study. They say so much about the ways in which you were harmed, the trauma you endured, like, it's insane. They're able to look at someone's pornography searches or the, you know, fantasies that they have, and they're able to connect that with specific traumas they'd had in their life.

For example, it's like, oh, your mom was really controlling, and this [00:33:00] correlates with this sort of genre of pornography that you go after. It's so fascinating. So that was, I think it's really important. So one of the things that I learned from him is that there's so much underneath the surface that a lot of people don't think about that maybe you intuitively know that when it comes to anger and power and pornography.

Like, there's so much there that he, you know, he explained it well in the episode, and I'm not going to do nearly as good of a job, but he was basically saying that there's so much anger that we feel as humans for so many reasons, right? And anger is just this response that we feel at a real or perceived injustice.

So there might be something in our life, especially as it relates to the sexes, which is really interesting. So it's like if men Uh, you know, if these important men in your life treated you this way, or these important women in your life, like your mom, or girlfriend, or wife, treated you this way, then you might tend to think of all women that way.

And then therefore, um, you know, like, for example, this is just an example, if you had, you know, a mother who was really controlling and belittling, you might seek pornography or, you know, fantasies [00:34:00] that put you in a position of power over women. Um, because there's a lot of, maybe, untapped anger there that, you know, It gives you, you know, pornography becomes kind of an outlet to reverse that, uh, misery that you're living through.

And so anyway, he does a better job explaining it than I could. And his book is awesome, Unwanted, by the way, um, recommend people look, check that out. We'll, we'll link to it in the show notes, but yeah, so, so everything you're saying makes so much sense to me that, um, you know, kind of the deeper you go into that world of like perversion and twisting what's supposed to be really beautiful, good gift to our sexuality, the, the kind of more ravenous, almost an animal like that we become.

Definitely. And I was taught that, I mean, my mother really impressed upon me that the act of sex was making love. And it was something that you did between a man and a woman that you love and you're committed. And then I think that it just, once, that was when I was really little. And then once I got older, I think it just kind of, it was one of those things that like, Oh yeah, like, You know, that's just a, maybe like an [00:35:00] old wives tale or like something that your mom tells you when you're growing up, but it's not really true.

Um, like look at, you know, just turn on the TV, there's two people having sex. Like, it could be anything. And, uh, it's not, I mean we see it everywhere. And I think that not only the, like the beauty and the sanctity of sex and the act of sex, has completely been erased from our society. But now the pornography and the pornification of sex is just becoming more and more acceptable within our society.

And, um, and it's tricky. Absolutely. No. And I, I, I love that distinction and that comparison of like, you know, it's not that, you know, the world doesn't glorify sex. It really degrades it. It really makes this like, into like subhuman animalistic thing where like you said, it's really meant to be making love.

And it becomes this really, again, degraded thing that I think we all know that we want better [00:36:00] than that, but maybe we think that it's not even possible to have something better than that. And so, no, so many good lessons in there. So thank you for going into all that. I do want to transition into your story and into your, um, transformation.

It's just incredibly beautiful. What was it that, yes, sparked that exit from pornography and ultimately your conversion? Well, it started with a tragedy, um, like all great stories. Something happened about three years ago that ultimately it was just a freak accident and it was a horrible occurrence, but it's something that has plagued me and filled me with guilt and sorrow and depression.

And it's my greatest grief. And I have been in therapy for the past three years because of it. And it's slowly, it was slowly getting a little bit better, but still my own sense of guilt. And again, also self worth and even just desire to live my life [00:37:00] was in question. And after this, I, I was fully committed to killing myself and it wasn't.

It wasn't even a thought. I was like, yep, that's what I'm doing tomorrow morning. I'm going to do this, this, this, and this. And, um, by the grace of God, my husband wouldn't leave me alone and he, he stayed with me for like two weeks pretty much. He took time off work. So, um, but none of these things helped.

This was my fault. It was my doing and, and now my life is over because of this. Then, last spring, I had an opportunity to go to Italy. My mother in law actually paid for tickets for all of us to go. And, I was really excited about that, of course, obviously. Uh, we took like six months to prepare. I got, you know, Italian in 40 minutes a day.

And, but most of the preparation that I did was really about, the things that I wanted to see, the artwork there. And when you're in Italy, um, the hub of the greatest artwork of all of Western [00:38:00] civilization, in my opinion, the greatest art is in the churches, churches, basilicas. We visited dozens, uh, I want to say probably like over 50, but that was like our main focus was going to these churches.

And initially it was just for the artwork, you know, nothing religious, you know, I'm not Catholic, but at the same time I was like, well, I kinda, I want to get into it though. You know, I want to be like when in Rome, you do as the Romans do. So we're visiting these churches, they're Catholic churches. And I know that Catholics wear a veil when they go into a church just as a form of respect.

So. I figure, all right, I gotta, I gotta try this. I'll wear a veil, you know, have fun. I'll be Catholic. Um, so we go and every time outside of a church, even just like a tiny little Basilica, I put on my veil, then I start to, I start to kneel and cross myself when I go in again, just like, look at how funny am I, you know, I'm Catholic.

Um, and just kind of getting a kick out of it. [00:39:00] And then. And, like, the artwork is incredible, it's amazing, it really is. But then, something inside of me started to change a little bit, where instead of just appreciating the artwork for what it was, or instead of veiling and crossing myself just because that's what we did, I started getting into it.

Like, wow, this art is beautiful, but, like, look at the way that, um, Jesus has his arm around Mary, like, in, in this fresco. Or look at the way that this person's, you know. Intimating this sort of reaction and I started really like being moved and touched and Appreciating the artwork for the theology as well as just its beauty and then I started like it was almost like a fake it Till you make it kind of thing where I was crossing myself initially just because that's what they do But and then I started like actually saying the words looking up at the crucifix when I did so acknowledging the crucifix And, but still, at this point, remember, I have this intense tragedy that's weighing on my shoulders, and I, when this [00:40:00] occurred, I had tried praying to God, and I tried, you know, like I had touched on before, I was raised Lutheran, but completely fell away from the church ever since college.

God's been pretty much non existent in my life. But you better believe that as soon as this tragedy occurs, like, He's my number one, you know, concern, and I'm like, Hey. You know, I'm praying now, so you gotta listen to me. Like, I haven't prayed or talked to you or done anything beneficial in the last 20 years, but now I need something, and I need something that I've never needed before in my entire life, and I expect you to do this now.

And I prayed so hard that night that I can still remember, like, my knuckles were white because I was squeezing my fingers so hard, and he didn't do anything, or so I thought. Jesus didn't respond to me at all that evening, and so, I was done with him completely. Like what little amount of relationship that we had was completely over.

So this affected me when I was in Italy, even just going into churches. Initially, like I said, it was, it was for the artwork. So it wasn't that big a deal. But [00:41:00] then when I started crossing myself, when I started really looking at the theology of the pictures, I was like, okay, I I'm in God's house and I, I still don't want to talk to God.

I don't, I don't have anything to say to him. And like, even just thinking about talking to God made me like start to tear up. But in these churches and basilicas in Italy, in addition to the crucifix, you could always find Mary somewhere. And I started going to her, like, physically, literally, I would, you know, kind of walk around.

Because she wasn't always right there, present. Like, sometimes she was in, like, a smaller alcove. Or, in Italy, you probably remember the edicolas. They're the frescoes that are on the street corners and, like, on just, like, random sides of buildings and stuff like that. And it's, it's always Mary illuminated.

And she was just everywhere. And And I started noticing her and I started thinking that, okay, this is kind of weird. Like, why are you, you stalking me basically. Um, [00:42:00] and And then I thought, I thought about her and her life and what she went through, and I thought about how she had this intense tragedy, even greater than my own, where she went through something similar where it was completely out of her hands and her son was put upon a cross, tortured, died a really awful death.

And she went through all of this with grace and with dignity. And, and that was. That's what helped me to be able to be in a house of God, to be able to even consider talking to God, because I was able to talk to Mary. Mary is, she was born without sin, and she is the mother of God, but she's still human.

And she was the one who asked Jesus, kind of, at the wedding of Cana, she was the one who said, Hey, these people don't have any more wine, and I need you to help them. They're really good friends. I really don't want them to be embarrassed. And he said, It's not my time yet. But he did it anyway because [00:43:00] she asked.

And that was, I kind of think of that as like, that's kind of what started the ball rolling that ultimately got him on the cross. He said it wasn't his time, but she said, please. And so in a way, I like to think of that. Mary didn't really know what she was asking. She didn't know that, okay, if you do this, then you're going to be crucified sooner than later.

Um, I'm not saying that, but in a way I think that she. She knew what was going to happen. She knew that she was going to have these swords pierce her heart, and yet she continued forward, and she lived her life with grace and beauty. And she was a huge part of my conversion process, and then, and just my healing, really.

And being able to talk to God again, but it doesn't end there. Um, so from there we went to Assisi, um, because St. Francis is amazing, awesome. And like I've told you [00:44:00] before, I. Animals have always been a big part of my life, and even non Catholics know about St. Francis. I think he's like the gateway drug to Catholicism, or like the gateway saint almost.

Where it's like, even secular people are like, yeah, St. Francis! It's cool, he's in a dog. Um, and that's how I was, I'll admit it. Went to Assisi primarily just for St. Francis, but then knew about St. Clair, his female counterpart, just from, again, I did a bunch of research before going there and so I learned about their story.

Um, but she's like a footnote, you know, in his story. As it turns out, she was really the shining hero of my story. And I remember we, okay, we went to a CC. We went and, and looked at all these amazing things and all these different historical places where history was made. And we visited St. Claire's tomb and not really thinking much about it.

I still remember standing in [00:45:00] line and, um, like telling other people to they were talking loudly and you're not supposed to talk loudly and you're supposed to be respectful. It wasn't like I was expecting anything at all. I was just coming, you know. I had an opportunity to kneel in front of her tomb and so I'm gonna do it.

I kneel in front of her tomb, I close my eyes and I, I had a vision of her. I'm not saying that I'm some sort of mystic or that like she appeared in front of me or anything. Yes, my eyes were closed, but I could see her distinctly right in front of me. She was wearing this cream colored, like, satin gown, which is weird, too.

Um, I've really, like, gone over every detail in my mind because I want to make sure that this is, this is legit. I don't, I don't want to be telling a story where like, actually it's just some sort of, you know, um, something that I've manifested in my head. So I think to myself, you know, why would she be wearing this gown if it was something I just manifested in my head?

Wouldn't she be wearing her like classic hair [00:46:00] shirt? Because, you know, That's what I learned about up until that point that she was like always in this hair shirt. I've learned differently since then like she actually used to wear it in secret because because her her health was really ailing and her Her sisters would they're like no you can't wear that anymore and she'd she'd keep it under her pillow to keep it secret My wild lady.

Um So i'm kneeling at her tomb I have my eyes closed she's appears before me in this satin gown And I can really only kind of see the bottom half of her body and the top half is kind of in this bright light. But she shows me her arms. Um, she says, see how soft my arms are. She shows me her lap. She says to me that that she'll take it.

She said, you can put her here, you can put her here and I'll take care of her. And you don't have to do all this on your own anymore. And you don't have to be the one. To carry all this by yourself, because I'll help you. [00:47:00] And, and, ultimately, I think, also, what she was trying to tell me was that, you know, I can take your suffering, and I'll bring it and give it up to God for you.

Because, at this point, I'm still not ready to talk to God. I don't want to have anything to do with Him. And she was, I didn't even really know what, um, an intercessor does or, um, anything like that as, as far as like Catholic people. Um, but I think now I can say that I think that's what she was offering to me, to be my intercessor, to be my go between when I wasn't ready to talk to God yet.

And she was also just offering me the opportunity to not be alone and not have to carry this. This pain with me all by myself anymore, and I got up from her tomb and I'd like to say that everything changed and now we're all happily ever after. I became Catholic and yadda yadda. Not yadda yadda, but you know what I'm saying, but that's not the case.

I got up from her tomb [00:48:00] still crying. I went into one of the kneelers and prayed for a while. I was able to stop crying, but I didn't really think much of it until several months later until I really decided to jump in with two feet and become Catholic and Then I really started thinking about what was she saying to me because I remember leaving there and like Being able to breathe easier having like this weight lifted off of my chest but not really understanding it and not really thinking it was some sort of supernatural occurrence and now I I think that she came to me.

I think that she chose me to help me. I hope she forgives me for, you know, going to a CC only to see St. Francis, but I think she's good at that. Um, and since then, uh, I chose her to be my confirmation saint. And I just, I really love speaking on, on like her acts and her, her life. I, it's just [00:49:00] phenomenal and really impressive.

And so, yeah, that was a pretty. special experience. So that was really well. What started it and then from there I came home, you know, after an experience like that after not just with Claire but with Mary and even with the crucifix, with Jesus, with everything, I couldn't go back to the way that I was living.

I wasn't sure about going to mass because I was a Christian. you know, Lutheran, but, um, but I, I wanted those feelings that I'd gotten in Italy and I, I'd never felt that in a Lutheran church. And, um, so I started to go to mass, um, you know, semi regularly if for no other reason, just to rekindle those feelings that I had in Italy.

And then I considered actually becoming Catholic, but I wanted to talk to an authority first before I completely made, made up my mind. So I made an appointment with a priest and I went and spoke with him at length and that's [00:50:00] when everything changed. Um, when he told me that God loved me and God wanted me to be happy, it was like a drink of water after a 20 year drought.

And I didn't even realize I was thirsty, but I was so extremely thirsty. And that's kind of like how I was living, you know, ever since my 20s, was I didn't realize how unhappy I was. I just was going day to day, I think like most people maybe, and I didn't realize that there could be something better. And it was that conversation with a priest that illuminated that in my life and in my mind.

And I started crying and I just really haven't stopped since. Uh, it was an amazingly fruitful discussion. And then also, even before I got to speak with the priest, I was speaking with his secretary and those same exact feelings that you talk about, Joy, were, I want what she has. Within, like, I was [00:51:00] there, I got there kind of early and I think it was maybe like five I had told her my whole life story about, even about my recent miscarriages and, like, everything that had happened to me.

And somehow, I don't know, I just completely opened up to this woman. And then she told me about how her son had committed suicide. And I'm thinking to myself, like, man, I thought that I was selfish before, egotistical before. Like, nothing that has happened in my life could be that bad. That your son committed suicide, but look at this woman.

Look at the faith and the beauty and just the friendliness. She was so friendly and so happy and so beautiful and I wanted that. I, I, not even like before I got to the priest I was like, Man, I like this woman, like, I'd like to be friends with her after I talk to the priest. Man, I like this woman. I'd like to be in class with her.

It turned out actually she was the instructor for RCIA. [00:52:00] Um, so it just worked out, like, perfectly. And at that point I jumped in with both feet, wholeheartedly, no looking back. And I'm so much happier for it. What a story. My goodness. So many layers to it. I love how your, yeah, just going to Italy was kind of the spark of this transformation, because I absolutely love Italy.

I come from an Italian family. I've had the opportunity to travel over there and spend time, and I worked over there actually for a little while. And, um, my goodness. I just love it. So, you're getting me excited. I want to go back, but, uh. Oh, it's so amazing there. I mean, you can't, you can't help but be Catholic when you're there also, or at least appreciate the Catholicism and just the spirituality, the faith.

And then, you know, not to mention the food and the climate and, oh my gosh. My goodness. It's just, it's just unreal. So, so good. There's so much I want to talk to you about, but this tragedy that you went through, I'm so sorry for that. I think it's such a normal, like a natural occurrence for those of us who maybe are far from God [00:53:00] to then go to God in those moments of pain.

It makes so much sense. Um, you had that experience of disappointment of being like, God, you didn't come through for me when I needed you. And I'm really curious to kind of press into that. Cause it seems like that he was kind of working in the background behind the scenes. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you tell me.

And then he did come through for you in a way that maybe you didn't expect. But I think it is really important because a lot of people find themselves exactly where you were, that the pain and suffering in their life is this major wedge between them and our relationship with God. I think it's the number one reason that people.

Give up on God in faith in my opinion It's just like the pain and suffering they see in their lives or the lives of people that they love and care about Um, and so yeah So we can treat God as I've heard father Mike Schmidt say is this like divine vending machine or like give me this give me that I want you to just like fix this area of my life.

I don't want a relationship with you Just want you to be like this technician that comes in and just magically fixes this thing. How did, how has your kind of view of God transformed through this experience where maybe you saw [00:54:00] somewhat of that, again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but then now you see that there's, there needs to be a relationship and there needs to be like, he's caring for you, but he might not give you always what you want, but he will give you what you need in time.

It is. It's extremely difficult to go through life without God. And it's extremely difficult to go through tragedy without God. And my answer was to turn my back on God, initially, and that didn't work. But then, I think, one thing I want to say is that it's remarkable, like, my recovery time, if you will, of tragedy, since having God in my life, and prior to having God in my life.

And, like, the recovery time, like, you're still gonna have tragedies, you're still gonna have things that go wrong in your life. But the recovery time for me has been, it's like, you know, night and day, really. And, God, it's hard to hear, and it's hard to believe, but God does answer prayers. [00:55:00] And, for me, what I've realized, and I'm still not there, You know, a hundred percent like, Yay, I'm so glad that this happened to me, and you took this tragedy and you made it into something good.

Good for you. Um, you know, let's not lie or be fake. I still wish this hadn't happened. I'm still kind of mad that he chose You know this sort of thing in order to get me into the Catholic Church But I think that's ultimately what he did and I'm not saying that he chose to put this tragedy in my life for this but I was praying that I could see her again and I think because As he has opened up my mind to the faith and to the church and to this sort of, this way of life and opened up my mind to the detriments of my previous way of life, that means that in some way I'm going to be able to see her again sooner rather than later.

Because I do really believe in purgatory. Not the Lutheran form of purgatory, but a purgatory [00:56:00] where, you know, you have to prepare yourself. God. Um, so think of it like the scene in the wizard of Oz. They go through like a whole afternoon of like, you know, she gets her hair curled, like the tin man gets all shined up and this is just to meet the wizard.

But think of like how much prep you have to go through to meet God. And it's like, Well, you have to shed these certain things that you're still clinging to. And one of the things that I'm still clinging to is my guilt and my sadness over what happened. And I think that he brought Catholicism into my life to help me with this guilt, to help me with this sadness.

And therefore, I'm not going to have to spend as much time in purgatory and I can get to heaven to see my loved one sooner. I also think that maybe he didn't necessarily put this tragedy in my life, but he used this tragedy in order to get me to go back to church ultimately. Um, and then also to join the Catholic church because [00:57:00] I was raised Lutheran.

And when we did go to church, which was, you know, like Easter, Christmas, where some of those people, but also. Like, just every now and then, I would be like, You know, I remember just really liking church when I was young. Why don't we try it? And my husband was like, Okay, I guess. And we'd always go to a Lutheran church, because that's how I was raised.

And then, during my tragedy, my husband kind of reconverted. back into the Catholic faith, got really into the Catholic faith, and then, and at the time I felt, well, I've lost him. Like, he's just doing his own thing, and I'm gonna be stuck here in my tragedy. Um, and he started going to Catholic Mass, so then, after I came out of this funk and was able, after Italy, after I was able to consider that, you know, maybe my life is worth something.

Maybe I can go on. Maybe I can have joy and happiness because remember I told you the day after this occurred I was like, I'm taking the shotgun. I'm going to the [00:58:00] backyard. I Already had my note planned for my husband for my mother all this and so to go from there To entering into the Catholic Church took some time and I didn't want to have anything to do with God Meanwhile, my husband's really into God and I'm kind of offended by that You But then he starts going to mass and then so after Italy even if like I I really wanted to continue going to Mass because of those same feelings that I got in Italy But even if I wanted to go to a Lutheran Church, like it was too late.

My husband was already Catholic So it's not like we're gonna go to two different churches And so, I think, in a way, I mean, I'm never going to understand, no matter how much I ask, um, no matter how much I think about it, I'm never going to understand why God does what He does, and especially in that circumstance.

And I tell myself, you know, you're never going to know the reason why until you get to Heaven, and until, and at that point, you're not going to care anymore. So just stop thinking about it. [00:59:00] And I'm never going to know. But his, you know, path for me in that moment, in that situation. But what I can do is consider that he knows more than me, um, and also just have faith that he knows what's best for me.

And there could be a number of reasons why, you know, what happened did happen. But ultimately, I don't like to think about the negatives necessarily as much as like, look where I am now. And You know, since that tragedy has occurred, like, I've had two miscarriages, my grandmother's died, um, we had to say goodbye to our 15 year old cat recently, you know, there, there are things in my life that are still hard, and they're so much easier.

Wow, thanks for sharing. No, thanks for sharing all that, and again, I'm sorry for your losses. No, I think it's important to, especially for anyone listening who doesn't believe in God, [01:00:00] and maybe this is the reason why, because of pain and tragedy in their life, it's important to know, like, we can intellectually explain how free will and sin and evil work, but to me that never felt very satisfying.

Yeah. It's like, okay, fine, you intellectually have this valid argument that kind of accounts for all these objections, whatever, that's fine. It's important to do, but you know, it's not always so convincing. So for me, I think it is really, really powerful when you see someone like yourself who does suffer.

And does find some like deeper greater meaning in it and sees that God can somehow bring good out of it. That's one point. There's just something different about people who suffer, who like you said have like grace in their life, who have God's life inside of them. And even like just incredibly heroic stories of people who've sacrificed themselves for the good of others to love other people.

Um, I think of the Navy SEAL, Mike Montsour. He um, you know, he was a devout Catholic. He threw himself on a grenade in Iraq to save his Navy SEAL brothers. And, you know, you can say it's like, Oh, that's his [01:01:00] training as a SEAL, as a special operator. That was part of it. But he just, he did have this like selflessness about him.

And so I think, like you said, it's suffering. Doesn't disappear from your life once you choose to follow God and have a relationship with him But you like you said you become better and stronger and more virtuous and better able to navigate and even like you said see that This isn't the end if it was the end life would be very depressing and I would personally see no reason to live like to You know, I think that is It kind of makes sense if, if this was it.

And so, yeah, but, but I think overall, the thing that is the most mind boggling for me when I have wrestled with this whole problem of pain and evil in my life is, you know, I can never say that we have a God who doesn't know what it's like to suffer, like, like you said, in those churches in Italy, it's like the crucifix is always there.

Like, it's just mind boggling that a God who, you know, is all powerful, all good, all knowing could. Come to earth, take on human flesh, become human, and go through all of that. Worse than, you know, any of us could imagine. There's something in that that just, like, it stops you in your [01:02:00] tracks, and I think that's the greatest argument, you know, or the greatest, um, maybe evidence that there's something about, like, human suffering and human pain that, like, God wants to work through.

And, uh, it's not, it's not so clear. I can't explain it. But, um, But it is, uh, it's evident that, yeah, this isn't the end and that he, you know, God is moved by human suffering. It seems, um, it's kind of similar to, I can't remember the name of it, but there's this, the Japanese pottery where you take, um, gold and you fuse the two pieces together.

So then they become stronger than before they were broken and they become almost more beautiful too, because now instead of just pottery, there's, it's lined with gold and. I think that's a really good analogy for life. And yeah, for any of those who need inspiration, even if, you know, you aren't religious, I suggest reading about the saints.

I may be a little biased, but I think St. Clair's. It's just really inspirational. And there's so many of them who have [01:03:00] gone through turmoil or tragedy or even just, you know, were ridiculed for their beliefs, for being outspoken or for just, you know, what they thought was right. And a lot of them end up dying because of it, you know, and a lot of them end up getting killed because of it, I should say.

So I mean, that's pretty inspirational. No, I agree. And I think, yeah, like, kind of like you experienced too, sometimes, especially if you come from a broken family, the idea of like God as a father is like, can turn you off a ton. It's like, my goodness, like, you know, if you had a bad relationship with your dad or he mistreated you, it's like, why would I want any sort of father in my life?

And so like you experienced with, um, with Mary, the saints from what I've seen are these, and by definition, just for everyone who doesn't know this, um, saints are people who, um, um, live lives of heroic virtue, who have, you know, just were incredibly virtuous people. And so, you know, the typical people you think of are, you know, Mother Teresa.

You think of Pope John Paul II. You think of, you [01:04:00] know, any number of people that are kind of these well known quote unquote saints. And so, yeah, looking at them though, they best reflect God on earth. And so like you're saying, Bri, if you, you know, are maybe hesitant to go to God, just look at their lives, just see, see the way they lived and see if that's something that's compelling and maybe better than the life that you're living now.

And, and for me, that's been, it's been so inspirational and really challenging too. It's kind of, it's almost like we were saying before with your friends, if you surround yourself with like saints, it's like, my goodness, like I have a lot to work on and I want a lot, a lot to go through. So anyway, there's so much there.

And, um, and the one final thing I was just going to mention about like pain and suffering Cause I've really struggled with this. Like, I, I've really gone through seasons of my life where it's like, God, when my family was falling apart, when my parents were getting divorced, when, you know, all these bad things were happening, like, where were you?

Because it honestly seemed like he was just, like, absent. It seemed like he had abandoned us. It seemed like he was just, like, sitting on the sidelines, uh, watching, you know, us kind of get beat up. And so it took a lot of time. A lot of prayer, a lot of, um, you know, listening. walking with [01:05:00] mentors spiritual direction for me and To kind of see that he wasn't just standing in the distance He was actually right there in the midst of it working in the background and what I have liked him to make himself more obvious I would yeah, I really would have that would have been nice.

I would I liked some more quick fixes That would be really nice too. But for some reason He works silently in the background, and he, he works especially through other people, and, um, he plays the long game. The really long game sometimes. It's like, my goodness, like, a quick fix would be nice here or there.

So, there's something about that, though, that I think is worth, like, pondering. It's worth, um, wrestling with. So, no, it's so good. I, um, I wanted to just make this point and get your thoughts on it, too. Your story is just so beautiful and inspiring. And there really is this such clear theme of beauty in your story.

Obviously in the past, as you've shared, you've used your physical beauty in a way that you regret in a wrong way. But in Italy, you know, the beauty there sparked this longing in you for something greater. Like you wanted to experience that beauty again. You want to [01:06:00] experience those feelings like you said, and now, you know, you're using your beauty, you're using your story to inspire others and your eye for beauty, even to create this beautiful story.

Uh, and you know, rosaries, like you said, for other people. And so it's, it's really profound as I was thinking about you and your story. I'm like, it's really profound. This like theme of beauty, especially the whole fact that you were won by beauty, like beauty won you any thoughts on that? I think really like.

Conversion is where you find it. Uh, I was lucky enough to have some pretty beautiful women encourage me, you know, both literally physically in front of me and also, um, Mary as well, as well as St. Clair. But the gateway to God is just wherever it appears in front of you. And I have a pretty unique story, and I really like the way that you surmise that with like different elements of beauty.

But whatever it is that makes you truly feel better about yourself, [01:07:00] just go with it. Run with it. And that could be your gateway to God, your gateway to a better life, your gateway to feeling better about yourself. That's probably the first thing that you would hope your gate leads to. And I think that it is really fun how there's been this element of beauty, but it could be anything for anybody.

And like I said, even like St. Francis is like a gateway saint to Catholicism, but it doesn't even have to be full fledged Catholicism. Like take something in your life that you really appreciate or maybe even something that you're really good at. Or, you know, the combination of those two things, and run with it.

See what you can do. I'm amazed and just completely blown away by the success of my new rosary business. I mean, to think a person like me, who's not only Lutheran, recovering alcoholic, but also used to produce porn, and so many people want to [01:08:00] buy rosaries from me, like, what? It's amazing. Blessing isn't even the, a big enough word to describe what happened to me after I decided to make this switch.

And, uh, And ultimately, like, I think a lot of times what we tell people, or especially youth, is like, you want to do this to make God happy, or you're, you're trying to do it, like, it's for somebody else, you know, or like, this is the right thing to do, you're not supposed to make porn. Um, you're not supposed to steal or do other hoodlum type activities.

But instead of thinking about, you Doing what you're supposed to or what somebody tells you to just be selfish like do it for yourself You know find the beauty in your life so that it can outweigh the misery I think that anything that is beneficial to you can blossom into something that is beneficial for others, beneficial for even civilization, and wherever you can [01:09:00] find that in your life, go for it, run towards it, cling to it, do it.

So good. There's this thing I was reading about recently, it was actually in a book on like health and nutrition. And they're talking about this idea of like a helper's high, how when you just like help other people, if you donate your time, if you just help people who are in need, whatever that might look like.

I think the example they were giving it is like, uh, working at like a, a food kitchen where you're serving food to poor people. And um, yeah, they did, they've done studies on people who do that and they end up like living longer, like being happier, like having these better lives. Yeah. So it's fascinating.

So, so I think, you know, your point is, is, is a good one that, um, you know, if you can't find it in you to do it for other people, like do it for yourself. Cause truly like the kind of like your story, like my story, you know, we wanted to be happy. You wanted to experience that joy, that peace, that beauty that you experienced in Italy.

And I wanted to just not be so miserable and be happy. And, um, I think that that is like such a good thing. So yeah, what I would just like second is yeah. Anything that's good in your life, anything that's true, that's beautiful, like, you know, go [01:10:00] towards those things. And in the end, I think you'll end up, um, in a better spot in life and you'll be happier for it.

So, so, so good. I want to shift gears a little bit and I know we're running out of time here, but I'd love to just kind of give you these quick questions. Uh, one being, has there ever been, you know, maybe a temptation for you since your conversion to reject the body and sexuality because of the pain and the problems that it's brought into your life?

Um, to an extent, I think even during my career porn production. Like sex is completely skewed in my mind as to, you know, what it's supposed to be like, what we were talking about, making love, a relationship between a man and a woman, procreation, a beautiful union. Um, sex has never been like that for me. Uh, in college, it was all about, you know, filling the hole inside of me that made me hate myself.

and all throughout my 20s as well. And then I've really struggled sometimes, like, since I've converted [01:11:00] to keeping my thoughts pure and also what intimacy means to me necessarily. Like, because I did it for work for so long that, like, that kind of played out into my intimate life with my husband in a way where it was always like I was still on the job.

And since I quit and then also since converting, I've done a few things to help. Like we, we have a crucifix above our bed now. Um, you know, sometimes I'll pray and we're still trying to have a baby. Um, so it's become, it's easier with the help of God and the help of my, my true friends to be able to really connect with this man in a way that I haven't in many, many years.

And it's something that I didn't really think about until recently. And it's just, you know, another one of those things that I didn't even realize how this [01:12:00] affected this aspect of my life, but it really has. And I wish that somebody would have warned me. Again, thank you for just being so open and vulnerable.

Um, it makes sense. Again, I, I've heard that there's a lot of women, especially women in porn who in their personal life kind of become asexual. They kind of don't want anything to really do with sex. Um, which is kind of ironic cause you know, the, what's being acted out on screen is that, you know, often these women being like ultra sexual.

And, and so it's just very ironic that. That would then end up making them the opposite, asexual, in many ways. And so it is, it is so sad because there's supposed to be so much, like, goodness and beauty that comes from that part of life. And the, part of the reason I wanted to talk to you about this is because I think, especially in American culture, I think the Europeans aren't as susceptible to this, at least the southern, uh, countries.

There's like this real temptation to like reject the body and sexuality to see it as something like that's kind of bad and dirty. And it goes back to [01:13:00] this idea of Gnosticism years ago where they thought that anything spiritual was good and anything material like the body was bad. And so you kind of just put up with the body and then you and and just for all those listeners, I know you know this, but, um, you know, you kind of put up with the body and put up with sex because it's needed to kind of.

have babies and keep our species alive. Um, but there shouldn't be much pleasure derived from it and it shouldn't be this good and like beautiful thing. And, and so it's been, um, some, you know, denominations of Christianity have kind of latched onto that. I think it's gotten so much better over the years, but, um, certainly in American culture, there's this prudishness, there's this puritanism that is really toxic.

It's really bad. And the history of the sexual revolution itself is fascinating because the Hugh Hefner in particular, um, he grew up in a very prudish Christian family. And he rejected that prudishness, which he should have, by the way, but he went way too far in the opposite direction with kind of, quote, unquote, liberating the body and sexuality.

And so it's really just such an interesting thing. And I think an important conversation to have when it comes to, [01:14:00] yeah, kind of putting the body and sexuality in its proper place and seeing the beauty in it and seeing the glory in it and seeing that, um, yeah, it's not perfect. And I don't mean to like, make it sound like, you know, if you have the.

proper view of sexuality and you're kind of healed and your sex life is going to be amazing in your marriage and things are going to be awesome. Like, no, it's, it's messy. We're broken as humans. And so things are always never going to be a utopia. That's not what I'm saying. But I think that, uh, that the root of that has caused a lot of problems and like really truly the pervasiveness of pornography today comes directly from that.

Um, that kind of view on like the bonding sexuality. So yeah, I just wanted to dig into that with you. Any final thoughts before I move on? Um, yeah, I think that to view sex as scandalous and something that's wrong and bad and filthy can be just as detrimental as the flip side. Um, and yeah, I guess like you see it in Hugh Hefner, like you said.

And I think that it's one of those [01:15:00] things that really needs its proper place, and beauty is a big part of it. Beauty, love, acceptance, all those things go into a great relationship. I couldn't agree more. Have you been tempted to kind of hate yourself for your past? And if so, how have you dealt with that?

Certainly. Um, like I said, it's not just about porn production. It's like all of us, we have, you know, we all have pasts, we all have sins, we all have regrets. And I think really one of the best ways that I've dealt with this is, again, while talking to people who have been there, who also made poor decisions and then have rectified, remedied their lives.

You know, we're like, you can read, again, you can read about different saints that, and they're not all spectacular, you know, Mother Teresa. Like a lot of them [01:16:00] come from certain backgrounds and then have changed for the better. You know, a lot of people Mary Magdalene to me and she was a prostitute. And then, you know, she became one of Jesus's most trusted disciples.

Um, but also you can find those people in your life now. I can't stress the importance of, you know, um, talking to other people, especially in your own situations. AA was a huge resource for me. Um, And during that first year, it was really one of the best things that had ever happened to me. It was the greatest thing in my life.

And a lot of that is because, you know, I talked with people who were freely, openly discussing all the horrible things that they did when, you know, they were drinking. And now, okay, so not only was that like completely mind blowing, that you're just like, [01:17:00] Openly talking about how you got fired from your job or how you like you stole your daughter's lunch money like to buy booze you're just saying that like that is inspirational and and once you've told your Rock bottom story to a room full of complete strangers your life will never be the same And so things like that I think are really helpful and they're helpful to understand that you're not alone.

They're helpful to understand that other people have done these things and worse and it's helpful to see people who have done these things worse and now are better because they've stopped doing them. Yeah, I've definitely been tempted. And, you know, several times in my life, too, and I've, I've gone as far as to say that, yeah, there were many, many years that I think that I just completely hated myself, but I, I hated myself more when I was in amongst the detrimental behavior, when I was drinking, when I was doing porn.

Now that I'm out of it, I like the way that you said, it's [01:18:00] tempting to still hate myself, but I have a hard time hating myself these days. I don't know if that sounds like egotistical, but, um, It's a good thing. Yeah. Um, because I just, I mean, the people that I engage with, the people that are in my life, my work is so rewarding.

I have all these incredible people and I have all these incredible resources and all this great love and beauty and just abundance and it's hard to hate myself because everything's just really, really nice. I mean, you know, like there's still tragedy, like I said, but I have, this whole toolbox full of resources that I can go to when I'm, you know, in, when I'm in the dumps or like, even when like something like will trigger a bad emotion or a bad memory.

And, um, and then I can go to this toolbox and I have different people, different things that I can listen to, different things that I can read, different prayers that I can say. [01:19:00] Whereas before when I was an alcoholic or when I did porn. My toolbox was, like, things that are just gonna make me feel worse.

And they're not really helpful at all, you know, like alcohol or sleeping around any of those things. I hear you and yeah I think it's a temptation for all of us in one way or another like to have like that proper love of ourselves like where It's not like you said on one extreme Egotistical we're obsessed with ourselves, but the other end it's a really bad and unhealthy thing to hate yourself to think so lowly of yourself So I love that you're in that like in that good spot now and yeah I, um, I certainly have my own regrets about my past, but I think there's something about God's mercy too that just helps you be merciful to yourself because once you experience like that forgiveness, you can then start to forgive yourself, which I think is probably harder than, than even like asking God for his forgiveness.

So yeah, that's beautiful. You've already talked a lot about different things that have helped you to heal. You know, like you mentioned going to A, you mentioned, you know, just being surrounded with good friends, the saints, like things like that. Has there been [01:20:00] anything else that's been really helpful as of now, um, when it comes to just healing that brokenness, healing the wounds from your past?

I think that therapy is still helpful, but I think it's also a combination of therapy and then my relationship with God. Like therapy itself didn't fill up everything, didn't help with everything. I agree. And, you know, I still have those same issues. Like, all of us who are addicted to something, it's not alcohol that I have a problem with, it's myself.

And I used alcohol in order to, like we discussed, like, get out of this reality and make me feel better about myself. But really, and the problem isn't alcohol, the problem is me. And so giving up alcohol, that's like one, a really great first step. And then, you know, working on yourself, going to therapy.

That's another really great first step. But I really have to say that it's because of God that I have this [01:21:00] complete. And total feeling of healing. And there are times that that complete, total feeling has cracks in it. And I'm kind of like, I think you kind of touched on this, like, you're kind of thinking like, Is this really, you know, for real?

Or, you know, am I just kind of lying to myself again? But, I don't think it's a lie. I know that my life has changed for the better because of those things that we talked about, but especially God. I can't, I can't say enough about that decision and really fully coming into the church and learning about God and learning about, you know, the gifts of the Holy Spirit and learning about all the ways that just increasing your relationship with Him will benefit you.

And Really, just to make you happier, like, uh, a more satisfied person living a more fulfilling life. God's the answer. So good. Do you ever feel tempted to go [01:22:00] back into that life? And if so, what Uh, yeah, how have you handled that? I wouldn't say that I feel tempted to go back to, like, drinking or producing pornography, but I really struggle, if I'm honest, I struggle a lot with going back to that same mentality of I'm not good enough, I'm not, I'm not enough, like, I just want to die.

And it can just be, like, one thing that happens and then another thing happens, and it's not even like a major event has occurred, but just like, I'll hear a song that reminds me of something. And I'm in this complete shame spiral that usually ends with, I feel completely alone and I really hate my life.

I'm tempted quite often to do that. And another, another benefit, another thing that I keep in my toolbox that I kind of trick myself with is, [01:23:00] uh, that I then think, what is your demon saying right now? Now, this sounds maybe kind of weird, but for over 20 years, I've had, These issues of negativity that I believe originated in college.

They stem from the fact that I didn't have a father figure and I never finished college and I'm just not good enough. And I call him the demon. Now that I've converted to Catholicism, like referring to this demon that lives inside of me is isn't really funny anymore. It's like almost kind of, Like I want to call him something else because now it kind of scares me the idea of this actual demon living inside of me.

But for the sake of this podcast, let's just refer to him as the demon as we always did before. And the demon loves it when I start to feel isolated. When I start to feel alone, he loves it. When I start to get nervous. About, you know, speaking out about my story or hosting a prayer [01:24:00] space on social media.

I start to get nervous about these things, like, who am I to do this? I used to be in porn, like, I used to be the scum of the earth. Who am I to host this prayer, this, um, novena? Who am I to go on your podcast, you know? Who am I to do any of these things? And I know that's my demon saying, and he wants to do whatever he can to keep me isolated, to keep me feeling like I hate myself and to keep me from spreading this joy that I have inside of me.

And I still have to watch out for that because I'm really susceptible to feelings of, um, self loathing. And it doesn't take much on some days for him to, to get under my skin. But then, really, when that happens, some days I have to admit that I'm still not good at relying on prayer and God for first thing.

Um, but it is a learning process. And some days when that happens, [01:25:00] I can so easily just let this demon get under my skin and convince me that I'm not good enough, that I shouldn't even be alive. But then most days I'm able to see what's happening. I'm able to recognize the demon for what he is, that he's trying to bring me down.

And I think one of the reasons why this demon loves bringing me down and is always trying to bring me down is because I'm afraid of success. What will that mean if I'm successful? If I'm, you know, and I'm not talking about, like, a successful porn star, like, that's not real success. But, how about if I'm successful in, like, being a, uh, Christian inspiration?

Like, yowza. That's kind of scary, huh? Like, then you're going to have to continue to be this Christian inspiration. You're going to have to continue to be successful. And look at all these people who are going to look up to you now. And then that's when either the demon or the angel can win of like, don't worry about it.

My angel will tell me. My guardian angel. Brie, you're [01:26:00] gonna be great. Brie, you're going to be inspirational and you're doing this for God, for the people who possibly will um, be inspired by you. And you're also doing this because Just imagine how happy that demon of yours is going to be if you don't do this podcast and like how he thinks that he's going to have won.

And then I get really freaked out and I'm like, I am not going to let him win. And I, you know, pull on my boots and, uh, pick myself up by my bootstraps, whatever, and, and I get it done. And I go wholeheartedly in on it because, mainly because I don't want the demon to win. Uh, You're a fighter. So good. Thanks for, again, sharing so vulnerably.

You've been so open, and I know it's so helpful to everyone listening, and yeah, gosh. No, and I speak on behalf of the audience when I say, man, I hope you can see the goodness and the beauty in you and your story. It's, it's incredible. It really is. And so, yeah, yeah. I hope you can continually be [01:27:00] reminded about that, because we need to be reminded as humans more than we need to be taught, I think.

And I remember the story of John Paul II. So, you know, he's this Polish priest who becomes Pope. He goes back to Poland. Um, I, I don't know if he was Pope at that point or just a bishop, but I think he was Pope and he, you know, at this point, after the Nazis left, you know, Poland during World War II, the Soviets took over, the Russians took over.

And in many ways, they were worse than the Nazis, which is hard to believe because they were just, you know, kind of more insidious and they were doing things in the dark and trying to just control the Polish people and to manipulate them and get them to, you know, give up. especially faith and morals and everything like that.

And one of the ways that they did that was trying to redefine their identity as people, as humans, but especially as, as Polish culture, like they wanted to snuff out, you know, Polish culture and different formats, like whatever it was, literature, art, theater, things like that, from my understanding of it.

And so John Paul goes back to Poland and he says, You are not who they say you are. Like, let me [01:28:00] remind you of who you are. You are not who they say you are. Let me remind you of who you are. And I think there's like, it gives me the chills to think about that scene of him, like shouting that to them.

Because I think as humans, we all need to hear that. It's like, we're all told whether it's by like that, you know, like you said that. evil like wolf inside of us, that whole analogy of like you have two wolves inside you, the good and the bad fighting, and the one that will win is the one you feed. Um, we all have that going on at some level, some more intensely than others.

And, um, and I think it's so important that we are reminded, especially by the other people in our life, um, you know, that there is so much goodness, like we have this so much inherent value and worth. and dignity that cannot be erased even by the poor decisions that we make. And we need to just rediscover that, restore that, bring that back to life.

And, uh, and I, yeah, I hope you can continue to do that. Cause, cause I certainly see it and I know our listeners do too. Thank you, of course in closing out. I just love you to speak to your younger self I'm curious what advice you would offer to kind of two parts of your life one Maybe you're considering getting into the porn and only fans [01:29:00] world and I'm so I'm curious kind of what would you say to that young?

Woman now, maybe she's even listening right now Someone out there, uh, what would you say when she's like kind of considering that? That's one question. The second one would be what about once you were in that life and you felt like it was the only way for you to make a living? Like, what advice would you give to that younger self or a girl listening right now who's in that space?

To the first girl, I would say, I know this seems like a great opportunity and it seems like easy money and a lot of fun perks, but you're going to regret this. It's going to change you in ways that you've never even considered. And instead, I'm really hoping that you will just find the beauty within yourself.

You will find something for you that makes you feel important and makes you feel special. And it's not this keep looking, but it's not this. You were made for something more than this. You are made in the image of [01:30:00] God and you're beautiful. You were made in his light and he wants more for you than just this.

And I think to the woman who is where I was, who is now full on into this industry on OnlyFans and I think that maybe you feel trapped and I know that I did when, when I was where you are and you're not trapped. It feels that way and it feels like this is maybe all that you can do. And it feels like maybe this is a really great life, but think about your future, and think about how this is affecting you now.

You don't even realize all the things that are seeping into your subconscious, and you don't even realize how narcissistic you're being, how egotistical you're becoming. Like, just listen to the way that you talk to people. It's not [01:31:00] normal. It's Just, just think about, you know, your income and the way you think about money.

Yeah, it seems really awesome right now, but it's a totally skewed sense of reality. You're not even living in the real world anymore, and it's going to have detrimental effects on you. And I think that for your own best interest, you should stop. Hmm. And there's such a better life ahead of them, like you said, I think.

Yeah, there's so much peace. There's so much joy. There's so much freedom that you can experience outside of that. So thank you for saying all that. Um, I wanted to, yeah. How could people find you online if they want to follow you and how could they, um, get to your Etsy store too? Please tell us about your business.

Oh yeah. Um, so I'm mainly active on X, formerly known as Twitter. And, um, I also have an Instagram account. You can find me in both places just by searching miss B converted. And then my Etsy store, if you'd like to check that out, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm constantly selling out of things, so if there's nothing in stock now, [01:32:00] um, just check back.

Like I said, it's been amazing, just an amazing success. And the address for that is avemariaeveryday. etsy. com. And thank you to everybody who has, uh, supported that business a lot. Absolutely. It's meant so much to me. No, you're offering a lot of valuable things. And so, yeah, make, we'll, we'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes so you guys can make use of that and follow Bri on social.

Bri, it's been such a pleasure talking with you. Um, yeah, so grateful for you and your story. And I know it's going to inspire a lot of people for, for many years to come. And you've already, you're reaching thousands of people through this show alone. So I wanted to give you the final word. Somewhat a similar question, but different.

I'm curious, like, What advice or encouragement would you give to maybe the men and women listening who they don't really see a problem with pornography? That's that's one question And I think a lot of our world is there right now The second one is what you know advice or encouragement would you give to maybe someone who does see the problem with pornography?

But [01:33:00] they feel stuck. They they have these unwanted sexual behaviors in their life They want to be free of them, but they feel stuck. So I'll give you the last word. Thank you for that opportunity. So To those of you that don't really think that Pornography is a big deal. I used to be right there with you.

In fact, I would actually, I mean, obviously what I would, I would encourage pornography because that was what I did. Um, but also even prior to that, I used to think of porn as, you know, it's a place where you can go to explore your fantasies. And this way, like, if your fantasies are kind of taboo, like, you don't have to act them out in the real world and you can just live vicariously this way.

But that's not how our human psyche works. And, like, if you have something that's taboo, you know, maybe you should talk to somebody about it instead of feeding it and engaging in it and some people might even say that watching pornography altogether is pretty taboo and I think that, you know, you can choose the, the wolf who you want [01:34:00] to feed, who is inside of you, who makes good decisions and who will lead you to a better life, or you can feed the wolf who is detrimental and, and you really have to, you know, So what you're putting into your mind, um, is it good or is it detrimental?

And, um, I think also, like, for people who think that porn's really not that big a deal, one thing that most people don't know about, and I, I think, Really love to educate more people about this is the link between pornography and sex trafficking. And for those of you that don't know, sex trafficking is where you steal someone and make them into your sex life or sell them for to be somebody else's sex slave.

I'm not really sure. Um, I'm sure that most people know the definition of that, but I want to be distinctly clear that sex trafficking is a crime. when it's done without the other person's consent. And a lot of pornography is actually just that. It's done [01:35:00] without the other person's consent. Um, I didn't know this when I was doing pornography, certainly not in my industry, but on major site, on major porn sites, a great majority of the people in those videos are doing this.

Against their will. And just by visiting that porn site, you are contributing to this. But not only that, when you get a subscription, even, you know, to places like OnlyFans, have you completely done all of your research as to where that money goes, and who this guy is, and who this company is? Uh, because sex trafficking, is one of the leading problems in this world.

I would say, like, one of the most horrific, disgusting things that has become so very popular. I don't think that people are, are even aware of the amount of people living now as sex slaves. That there are more people living now as a sex slave [01:36:00] than there were slaves in all of Egypt, than there were all the slaves within, you know, prior to the Civil Rights Emancipation.

And you don't see it every day. Uh, you don't, it's not, it's very, very hidden, but watching porn, producing porn, even scanning like free porn sites, all of those things you're doing is to support people who, who are forced to be sex slaves. And like, how gross is that? You don't want to be a part of that. You don't want to support that.

And. Most of you probably haven't even considered that, but look into it, do your research and make sure that you know, you know, everything that you're talking about and make sure that you know that about all the, the hidden facets of this CD world, because it's not beneficial. It's not helpful. It destroys lives.

It destroys marriages, destroys families. And you could have something so much better. And if you yourself are struggling with pornography, with an addiction to [01:37:00] pornography, I'm really sorry for that. And, um, there's a couple of amazing resources out there. There's, um, a website called Covenant Eyes. It's where you can go and sign up to have someone be accountable for what you watch online.

Um, there's strive21. com, which is a resource specifically for men who are addicted to pornography. Uh, it's run by Matt Fradd, who, he does the, um, Pints with Aquinas show. He's really goofy and I like him. Um, and then there's, uh, Magdala Ministries, who is run by a woman who herself, she was addicted to pornography and has since completely turned her life around and offers ministry for women who are in that situation and support groups and um, chat rooms, that sort of thing.

So really, I'm sorry that you're going through this. I'm sorry for the part that I [01:38:00] played even indirectly. But I'm glad that you want help. I'm glad that you want to stop. That's like a really hard decision to make. And I hope that those resources will be great for you. And, um, I also encourage people like if you want to reach out to me, that's okay too.

I've had several people, even former clients of mine who have. converted just based on witnessing like the joy that I feel and just based solely on witnessing my transformation that they wanted that for themselves. And isn't that cool that like the woman that I met at the priest's office, she was that for me.

And now I could be that for someone else. Like, I think that's pretty cool. And, um, and so I'm, you know, in, I'm in no way qualified to be professional help, but I can help, I can listen. And also I can help steer you into the right path.

 If you want to know more about human trafficking and sex slavery like Brie mentioned, I totally recommend checking out the movie [01:39:00] Sound of Freedom. Some of you have probably already seen it, but you can stream it anywhere like Amazon Prime and it's definitely worth the four or five bucks. And if you want to take Brie's advice and learn more about the harms of pornography and how to overcome unwanted sexual behavior, I wanted to mention a few resources in addition to what she recommended.

The first is a book called Forged by Matt Fradd and Jason Everett. It's a 33 day challenge to help men specifically break free from porn and unwanted sexual behavior. The next one is called Fight the New Drug. It's an awesome organization that makes the research on the harms of pornography really easy to understand and it's totally secular, not religious at all.

I'd also humbly recommend listening to our podcast series called Healing Sexual Brokenness. In the series, we just interview a lot of experts and they give really practical tactics and resources that you can use to overcome unwanted sexual behavior, and it's so relevant for people like us from broken families because like I said in the interview, one expert found that almost 90 percent of people with a sexual addiction come from a broken family, and so it's super helpful for people like us.

And if you want to listen to that, there's two ways to do so. On your [01:40:00] podcast app, just make sure to select a podcast. Our show restored helping children of divorce, and you can search healing, sexual brokenness, and you'll see all of those episodes, or you can just click on the link in the show notes, which will bring you to restored ministry.

com slash sexual brokenness, where you'll see all the episodes and you can select the one that you want to listen to. And finally, because the topic of suicide came up, if you or someone you know is thinking about committing suicide, just call or text the number nine, eight, It's just three numbers, 9 8 8.

Uh, again, call or text 9 8 8 or go to their website, 9 8 8 Lifeline. com. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, feel free to take 30 seconds now and send it over to them. If someone would have done that to me as someone who comes from a broken family, I would have been super, super grateful for that friend.

In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, [01:41:00] you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#125: Is Marriage Doomed to Fail? | Michael & Rachel Villanueva

For people like us from divorced and broken families, love and marriage can be extra scary. After my parents separated, I swore, “If this is where marriage leads, I want nothing to do with it.”

But thankfully, love and marriage aren’t doomed to fail. Marriage isn’t easy, but it can be beautiful and joyful. More importantly, it can help you grow into a better, stronger, and more virtuous person. 

Today, we’re joined by a married couple to discuss all of that, plus:

• The struggles they’ve faced within their marriage, especially around unmet expectations and brokenness

• The joy and beauty that they’ve experienced in their marriage and family

• What topics you need to discuss before you get married

Listen to All Things Nueva: Apple, Spotify

Follow Michael & Rachel: Instagram, Facebook, Instagram

Get the Free Guide: 7 Tips to Build Healthy Relationships and a Divorce-Proof Marriage

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Impossible Marriages Redeemed - Leila Miller

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

 [00:00:00] For people like us who come from broken or divorced families, love and marriage can feel extra scary. I remember when my parents separated, I swore if this is where love and marriage leads, I want nothing to do with it. It terrified me. But thankfully, love and marriage aren't doomed to fail. Marriage isn't easy, but it can be really good and beautiful and joyful.

And more importantly, can help you become this healthier, stronger, more virtuous person. I'm joined today by a married couple to discuss all of that. Plus, we talk about the struggles that they face. Within their marriage, especially around unmet expectations and brokenness, the joy and the beauty that they've experienced in the marriage too.

And don't just talk about the bad and the struggles. We talk about the good too. There's a lot of good that can come from marriage. We also hit on the signs of a healthy marriage and family, how healthy marriages and families differ from broken marriages and families. We touched on how the rupture and repair cycle that often happens within marriage can actually make you stronger.

And finally, talk about what topics you need to discuss with your significant other, your boyfriend, girlfriend, before you get married. Married. And so, if you want love, maybe you feel [00:01:00] afraid or you feel held back in pursuing it, this episode will help you. Stay with us. Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panerelli. This is episode 125. We're so happy that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard lots of great feedback on our content, not just this podcast, but other content as well, like our book and speaking engagements. One young woman said this, she heard us speak at a speaking engagement in Denver.

She said, I went to a friend's house this weekend for a girl's game night. The girl I sat next to just got married within the last seven months. She said she watched your marriage talk three times because she thought it was so helpful. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful. [00:02:00] At the end of this episode, we're actually going to give you the recording of that talk and a free guide that just summarizes the talk, the main points on how to build a really healthy relationship and ultimately marriage.

Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful. Today's episode is sponsored by Blackstone. In a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of Millennials said video is their top content choice. That's not really surprising, but if you run a business or ministry, are you taking advantage of that?

Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know, you need to create video content, but there's just so many barriers to actually doing it. You don't know how to do it. You don't have the time to learn how to do it. You don't know who to hire, who's trustworthy, who will do an excellent job, and it can kind of leave you feeling overwhelmed to the point where you just give up on it and you Go back to what you know, what's comfortable, but that's where Blackstone Films can help you.

They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel. They can create trailers, promo videos and commercials, social media videos, documentaries, fundraising [00:03:00] videos, and courses. We actually built Produced two courses with them, had an excellent experience with their team.

Whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about helping you not just create video content, but get a clear win for your business or your ministry, such as fundraise for your ministry, sell a course, get leads for your business, get students to sign up for your school, promote your event and more.

Blackstone has reached millions around the globe with their videos and they can help you too. So if you want to view their past projects and the services that they offer or schedule, you know, a call, send them an email, you can go to blackstonefilms. com.

I'm joined today by two guests, Michael and Rachel Villanueva. Michael and Rachel were married in July, 2017, after an adventurous and unexpected journey. Both have a passion for sharing God's incredible plan for marriage, family, and human sexuality, having earned their master's from the John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family in Washington, D.

C. D. C. Their podcast, All Things [00:04:00] Nueva, has proven to be an effective companion to their speaking and teaching ministry and can be found wherever you listen to podcasts. Once, when they were first getting to know each other, Rachel told Michael that they couldn't be friends since he didn't drink coffee.

Michael now drinks coffee. Uh, they currently reside in Phoenix and have five children, one in heaven and four on earth. So if you couldn't tell in this episode, we're going to talk a bit about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast wherever you're at.

I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, I just invite you to listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And with that, here's our conversation. Rachel, Michael, great to have you guys. Thanks for having us. We're super excited to be here.

I'm excited to learn more about your story. I know kind of the last time our friendships left off, we were in college and that was kind of it, um, we caught up a little bit before the recording, but give us, if you would, a quick summary, I guess, of your relationship, how you guys met and how you ended up where you are today.

Well, [00:05:00] it all started one fateful moment at the, at the toaster, actually a toaster in the cafeteria at the college we went to. Yeah. You know, I was just there toasting a bagel and Michael super friendly walked up, said hello. And literally the first thing that went through my mind was, you know, Why is he talking to me?

Like, I just want to eat my bagel and get my coffee. And so, yeah, we just kind of, we knew each other. We had a class together, but from the beginning you could kind of tell we were opposites. I sat in the front of the classroom. He sat in the back. We didn't really talk much after that encounter. Introvert, extrovert.

Yeah. And it wasn't until about a year later that we got to really know each other while we were studying abroad in, in Austria, smaller group of people kind of just drawn to each other. I mean, You're traveling all over, let's be honest, in Europe. It's very easy to fall in love. And that's kind of what happened between us.

But there are some obstacles, some major obstacles right away, um, because Michael was discerning to be a priest. Yes, I was [00:06:00] part of the discernment program at Franciscan and obviously wasn't. planning to fall in love because we had taken a non dating commitment, but the hills were alive with the sound of music.

And, uh, and long story short, like that, that was a semester where, yeah, we were just drawn to each other. We, we fell for each other, but Um, God had different plans or God had a plan for us to kind of go our separate ways after college. Yeah. So we never dated actually, um, we never dated in college. And once we graduated, we kind of cut off all communications and pursued our own paths.

Michael went, um, and became a seminarian for three and a half years here in the Diocese of Phoenix where we're residing now. And I had a couple of different adventures, teaching high school and traveling. And it was really interesting. Because for both of us, it was when we got to a point where we were completely surrendering our lives to God and super excited for what he had in store, that he revealed the other person to us.

And we were kind of brought back together. Kind of [00:07:00] revealed the vocation of marriage in a real way, in terms of our discernment. And we love to reflect back on how. Pursuing God with all of our heart, even in doing so having to sacrifice a lot, you know, and, and even, even each other in a real way that led to a deep freedom and peace.

And from that, the Lord was able to give us, uh, the gift of marriage on each other so that we could, we could really receive it as a gift and not, not, not go into it, grasping for the other person, the other person or for marriage itself as a vocation. So good. Okay. No, beautiful story. And then you guys, um, yeah, I guess reconnected.

How long did you date before engagement? Curious about all that. Well, we reconnected after I discerned out of seminary. Yes, he actually ended up moving to Washington D. C. where I was living without telling me. He moved there. The day he arrived, he called me. He said he was in town, that he wanted to get together.

And in my mind, he's like very close to becoming a deacon in the church. [00:08:00] Um, and so I thought it was something that he needed to rehash from the past. Needless to say, it wasn't. He, you know, God had revealed to him that Um, he was not called to be a priest. And so at first I was very, very shocked and I was very hesitant because there was a lot of hurt and pain from the past.

Um, and so how was I sure that he wasn't going to quote unquote leave again. And so I kind of put a full stop on any type of relationship right away. And I really wanted to be friends for a little while. So we were friends for about three months, hanging out in groups, getting to re know each other. And then we started dating and we dated for three months.

Nine months, we dated for nine months, um, got engaged, we were engaged for seven months and then married in July of two thousand and seventeen. I'm the one that always forgets. So we'll be married seven years. Yeah, this coming year. This year. Beautiful. Okay. Wow, amazing. Thanks for filling us in. And well, we're going to get more into kind [00:09:00] of your marriage and family a little bit later, but I want to start in maybe a less obvious place.

What, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, what sort of problems, I guess, have you guys faced within marriage? What sort of challenges? Whatever you're comfortable sharing, you know, there's no problems once you get married, right? It's all perfect. That's, that's the point that we want to make, right?

Is that, you know, we are honored that you asked us to talk about healthy families. But we wanted to make it clear like we're talking about striving to be a healthy marriage and family rather than a perfect marriage and a family. I know for me, kind of because I think of our story and the time that we were apart, I tended to like idolize Michael and who I thought he was.

He was like this perfect person that I couldn't have. And then. When it became a possibility that we could be in a relationship together, I mean, we're both overjoyed and really excited, but I still have this image of he's so perfect. And then when we got married, I mean, very [00:10:00] quickly, you just see that the person that you love and that you, you know, gave your life to is not perfect.

And so there's this real temptation in our world to say, Oh, like did I marry the right person or you're not who I thought you were. And I think there's a little bit of a truth to that, but I think the real thing that we need to recognize was the problem wasn't with Michael because no person is going to be perfect.

The problem really was with me and my expectations of what I thought marriage would be like, um, the idealized version, the idealized version, because the reality is, you know, I mean, we're all on a journey and what marriage is, is inviting another person to walk with you on that journey, that journey towards wholeness and towards healing.

And so when you come up against. You know issues or problems or struggles and trials. It's not like I'm gonna turn away from you It's asking the person to walk alongside with you to love you in those [00:11:00] places Where maybe you didn't even know that you were weak or that you didn't even know that you struggled And so I know for me that's just been a real challenge during the first couple of years Wow.

You went deep really quick, um, to kind of follow suit on that. I think we have some, some good practice, uh, more, it's all practical, but anyway, another one that came up while she was talking was in relationships in general that have a certain level of intimacy, but then especially in the married relationship, there's so many, because of how intimate the relationship is, you are there with your beloved and a lot of times lifeful in that setting.

Your baggage will arise, which will come up and it should, but it's painful. And so I think one of the big struggles was having the person that you love, that you've given your life to witness all of your baggage, all of your, can I say crap? You know, all of all of that coming out in real [00:12:00] life and having to navigate that.

And it's a risk because you're like, we've given our lives to each other, but. Will you still love me? Is this too much? Is this too much? If I show this part of myself, if you've seen me really like yell at the kids or yell at you, is like, is, are you going to walk away? Is this too much for you? It's, it's two sides of the same coin and, and this speaks to The experience of a healthy marriage and a family is that when that happens, are you able to communicate your fears and how much that hurts to have your struggles on display in front of your beloved and to, in real ways to, to fall short in loving your beloved, but then on the other hand of, on the other side of that coin is this deep glory of receiving love, the love of, of your beloved, even when you feel most unlovable.

That truly has been the experience of, of the love of God through my spouse in those situations. Beautiful. Those are such good points. Um, I want to go [00:13:00] back a little bit and talk about the expectations. Rachel, I'm curious, kind of two questions for you. One, what do you think contributed to your idolization of marriage?

And two, what helped you overcome it or maybe like work through the, what's the word, disillusionment when you were like kind of hit in the face with that? For sure. Well, I think expectation wise in college, I came in contact with some really amazing families and they invited actually both myself and Michael into their life and not that I actually had a really good family growing up.

But I think it was, it was just something that was different about seeing another family, how they live, how they love each other and the faith that really just sparked a desire within myself. Like I want that. And I think that's really good. I think that's really important. But the reality is I would walk into their house.

They would host me. It'd be what, like two hours. I would see some messiness and then I'd walk away. Um, and so. There's a sense of like, oh, they have the most perfect life [00:14:00] together and I like, I want that. And then when you get married and you're living with somebody day in and day out, and difficulties hit you, exhaustion hits you, just the struggle of daily life.

You're like, but there's a temptation to say, this doesn't look like the way I thought it would. I didn't sign up for this sort of thing. Yeah, I didn't sign up for this. I wanted it to be better. I wanted to be better. And, and in some ways, I think that's also good to recognize, like, where are we struggling?

Like, is it just the daily life and the reality of like the struggles that are naturally going to come? Or are there places that we're Being called to grow and to be more honest with each other of I expect more of you. I expect more of myself and so we actually need to work to be the family and to be the married couple that we want to be.

This is just not going to be given to us. Um, we have to put some effort into it and that means we need to be really honest with each other. [00:15:00] Um, in a very loving way, caveat, in a very loving way, um, in a, in a place of like safe space. Um, so we've actually created like a safe place within our marriage to bring up difficulties So we know that every week we'll sit down on Sunday nights and we kind of do just a whether we want to or not, a lot of times we don't want to, um, we do a time of prayer to start off.

We pray with each other and then we ask each other some really you know, deep questions such as like, how have you felt loved by me this in this past week? How have you been annoyed by me in this past week? And how can I improve? Um, how did you really try to intentionally love me this week? Um, and it's just this, this area that we know we can meet on each week.

So if something comes up during the week, it may not be the right time to speak about it, but I know I have Sunday night. And this is a place where it's not. To condemn the other person, it's not to shame them, but it's like, you know, things are not the way that I want them to be. They're not the way that I want them to [00:16:00] be and I want us to be better.

Um, so let's grow. And so it's become our, like our safe place to, to have some really difficult conversations. So that's really helped. I love that tactic and Michael definitely opened anything you would add there too, but one thing I was thinking is that when you idolize marriage, which I certainly fell into too, um, in my situation, I went through kind of a pendulum swing on one end of the spectrum after my parents separated and later divorced, I just had this intense fear of, of marriage, of love.

I was like, why in the world would I want to go through that? You know, if this is where marriage leads, I want no part in it. So it kind of was like, not, not interested. And then once I just saw the beauty in it, I was like, man, I want that. But I wanted so much the opposite of what my parents had that I kind of fell into what you described so well, Rachel, thinking like, oh, well, I'm going to make it perfect.

It's going to be incredible. It's going to be like flawless. And then I realized very quickly, like that is a recipe for disaster. And, you know, it creates marriage into this idol. And I think it was C. S. Lewis who said that idols always [00:17:00] break the heart. And so I think there's something like really profound in that we kind of need to go through that death aspect, which is hard.

And it sounds like you kind of went through that just realizing like, man, this is not what I, you know, thought it would be. But I want to give people hope, especially young people listening who maybe are in that spot of like idolizing marriage or running from it. That it actually, that death can actually open a door.

It could bring like new life, kind of like the seasons of, you know, the year, like the winter season. We'll bring spring like there's something actually that's more real, deeper, more beautiful, more joyful than you could imagine when you were kind of just picturing this fairy tale. Sorry, absolutely, absolutely.

I always like to say that the depth to which we experience sorrow and suffering is the depth. To which we are called to experience love. And so, and then that's the real place that we are called to be is in this place of love and joy. Um, and so it's a temptation when we experience heartache and suffering to, to just kind of write it off and I don't even want to go there, but if you kind of flip it and say, I am [00:18:00] called at a deeper level to experience real love here.

I think it can provide a real place of hope. And you should hope because that's what we want. The deepest desire of our heart is a love that's going to last forever. And that's very real. Yeah. I, what you said, Joey reminded me of the, uh, you know, Jesus's parable of the seed that needs to fall to the ground and die so that it can bear abundant fruit.

And. You know, we, we think about that death a lot, but what maybe goes over our head is just the, the great power embedded in, in the seed already for it to bear abundant fruit. If it gives of itself fully to kind of make it practical, what this conversation is bringing up for me is what my counselor and therapist brought up once that I was really.

Especially during a particular time of life, a few years ago, really struggling with being a young father of young kids and seeing some ugliness that was, was coming up in situations of stress [00:19:00] and exhaustion and just not, not knowing how to deal with them. And there was a sense of hopelessness, um, that I was going in there with just like, man, what, what do I do?

Like, I want to be a great dad. I thought I was really good with kids beforehand. And I had a heart and have a heart for them, but just in these situations, I just, wow, like, I don't want to go there, you know, and so I'm, there's a fear and over and over again, my therapist would, would just say, all right, Michael, let's, let's stop right there.

And I want you to imagine, like, imagine all of that ugliness, all of the shortcomings, all of the fear, imagine the place where that is gone, where that's been healed, where that's been worked through. Thank you. Now imagine what's going to fill that place if in terms of healing, in terms of goodness, in terms of what you were truly made for to be in terms of a husband and a father, like imagine the good that that vacuum opens up.

Now, like, what would that look [00:20:00] like? And I just, I just remember that reshifting my whole perspective of not necessarily forgetting about the struggles, but reorienting them. Like, this, I, this needs to be worked on, but there's so much good that, um, is inside of me. That I meant for, and with God's grace and real help, you know, from counselors, spiritual directors, my wife and effort, you know, hard work, what good can, can be truly in its place.

So that, that gave a real sense of hope. Beautiful. No, I love that. I think, um, one of the things I've noticed in my own life is when we go through those sorts of transformations where we truly like turn a corner, we see some real improvement in our lives, like kind of a measurable improvement. Um, not necessarily with numbers, but things we can like recognize that like, wow, I'm a different person now.

Um, I think we kind of forget them over the years. I think it's kind of like we, you know, just go through life. Like it's a grind at times. It's stressful. There's a lot in our minds. There's a lot to do, never enough time to do it. Um, and I think we [00:21:00] can forget those transformations, important to remember for maybe this reason among others that they kind of prove to us that we can further transform because I know for me so often when I'm facing like a problem in my life where I'm like, okay, you know, I realized like there's some virtue needs to be built in this area or I need to, you know, change this or change that.

It can feel, you can feel stuck. It can feel really debilitating. It can feel like, man, I can't really get past that. Um, but remembering that you have done this in the past, I think is really beautiful. And then of course, you know, as both of us would say, like God's grace is going to play a major role in that as well.

But I think, I think that's really, really important, but I know we could talk forever about all of this. I did want to go back to something else you guys said, which I think is really important. And our audience want to hear more about, and that is just this reality of like vulnerability. baggage, messiness, kind of showing up within marriage.

I think that could be a very sobering experience, especially if it starts to happen in like a dating relationship where, you know, Rachel, like you said, you kind of, this kind of like even idolized version of, of Michael in your mind, you, you knew kind of, um, about him, but maybe didn't know the real [00:22:00] him. Um, or at least in.

Get to those steps at that point. And so I'm just curious when it comes to that, like, is there any advice you'd have for people who are maybe in that stage now, like they're kind of struggling with that, like, man, I thought this person was different. Um, now I'm realizing they're not, and I know this looks different in dating.

Cause if it's like a major thing, maybe you should break up. Like there's, there's nothing wrong with that. Um, in marriage. You know, obviously if you've made that commitment, it needs to be worked through. Maybe there is some serious things that need to happen in order to hopefully heal the marriage. But I'm just curious, maybe hit on both of those, the dating side of it and then the marriage side.

If someone's kind of just woken up to the fact they're not the person I thought, that they would be like, what advice would you give them? Yeah, I think let's just start at dating. That's probably the best. Um, like you said, Joey, I mean, when you're dating and you come across this person, maybe who's acting in a way or you find out parts about them that you didn't expect, there can be real red flags, you know, any type of abuse, right?

That's an absolute red flag. Lying can be like a red, a red flag. [00:23:00] Um, we've actually encountered a lot of couples who there's pornography use in the dating relationship. And we do say that's a red flag. Um, I would say, like, in general, when you have these red flags, it's not as if, okay, I need to cut off this relationship right away, unless I would say there's an abuse.

Unless it's extreme. Yeah. Extreme abuse. And then, and then to that. Yeah. Abuse is pretty extreme. But it, it's, it's more of like, Is this person willing to go through the process of healing? Because that's what marriage is in a lot of ways, as it says, it's an ongoing process of healing, of sanctification, of growing in virtue.

And so if you are dating somebody and you realize that they, um, they use pornography. Are this, is this person willing to give it up? You know, are they willing to go through that process of, of really being restored and healed? And if they are, I would say continue on with that relationship. Maybe hit a pause of like, it's not a good idea to enter into engagement or marriage right now, but let's get [00:24:00] the help that we need so that we can move forward.

That's what we're being called to doing. Yeah. I mean, the word that's coming up is accountability to come up with a plan for accountability together. This is a great way to in dating to further discern your call to marriage. Can we work together to help each other grow in these real important ways? The important thing for that is accountability to make this really Pornography, exposure, and then addiction, and then a real long struggle of seeking freedom, you know, is, is, is a huge part of my story maturing as a man.

And, um, even after my conversion in high school, then going through college and seminary and then grad school, and then in the beginnings of our dating, like I said, there was, there was this struggle for freedom. But as we were. Closing in on engagement, just really getting serious about that. I knew that I, one, that I loved her, that I wanted to [00:25:00] love her as much as possible.

And I knew pornography did not fit in that picture at all, even for myself too. But especially with her in this, in this picture. And so I knew, and this came through, you know, prayer advice from trusted people. Advisors, et cetera. I knew that I needed to be honest with her about that struggle in the appropriate ways and very prudent ways, um, in terms of details and things like that.

But and also to tell her of my conviction that. This needed to be rooted out completely. I'm willing to do it, but I need help. Um, and so we, we were able to have that conversation. Thanks be to God. And it wasn't just left at that. At that point, we were able to really work together on an accountability plan.

Every week, every week we committed and a particular time and day. We would, uh, yeah, she committed to being intentional of asking me how I was doing, have I fallen to those [00:26:00] things? And I committed to being completely honest about that. Um, And that was just one facet. I mean, we found necessary then for Michael to have accountability with some really good male friends of his to continue his counseling that it was already ongoing, you know, to seek time to actually pray together.

Um, To pray for his own healing. So all of those things kind of made up our story. And so that's why I say, when you see red flags and dating, it's not, um, it's not automatically, I need to move on. Cause if you're going to do that, you're never going to get married. That's honest. And I'll share the success story too.

I mean, I know this, it could look different, you know, it could be a lifelong struggle even after that accountability, but in our story, thanks be to God, I stand before you. It's virtually for you virtually, uh, eight years, eight years free of pornography. Um, and that, that's in God's grace, accountability of my spouse and.

So, I mean, I [00:27:00] guess then in marriage when, you know, things come up like they always will, it, it really depends on the issue, whether this is just like, are we learning how to parent together, which is a really big deal. Let's be honest. Or is it something like pornography or you're, um, some type of manipulation in, in the marriage where, Hey, this is not okay.

And, and maybe, you know, This is not just, you know, reading some books together and someone works online and having conversations. We need to seek outside help. We need to bring somebody else into this relationship to help us navigate what's going on so that we can truly love and we can truly be loved here.

Well, this happened during engagement, but as to what you said, like, are you comfortable sharing more about, you know, when we got engaged, your journey with anxiety? Sure. I mean, when Michael and I actually started dating, I was not quite sure about him and about She was happy for And about Three hours.

Yeah. And about what, what, what could be because he had kind of said [00:28:00] no in the past. Um, there was a real fear and so I experienced the luxury for the majority of our dating relationship. I was, um, in counseling for anxiety, extreme anxiety because of, no, he was, he was the trigger for something that was deeper within me and that's what I needed to realize and to work through.

Um, yeah. And so I, I pretty much was in counseling the entire time we were in dating and through a little bit of engagement to, to really see what's going on deeper here. Is it, is it Michael himself? Is he the red flag? Is this a no go? Or is there something that has gone wrong in my life in the past? Um, many different times that this is triggering.

Those, those emotions, those feelings, that woundedness that I really need to look into and peer into. Um, and I felt honored being invited into that journey, like as a boyfriend and then fiance, like to be invited into that journey with you in the appropriate ways to pray for you, to [00:29:00] support you, to, I think we even went to a counseling session together, um, work through some of that stuff too.

And that's why with dating advice, especially, it's so tempting to be like, is this person the one? Is this person the one? And then if you come up against struggles or difficulties, like, is this person the one? And my advice is always is like, don't ask that question. Do I want to be with this person today?

Like, do I desire to be with them today? And if I do, then let's keep moving forward. And until I have a very real reason that's not fear based, that I don't want to be with them anymore, then keep going. Like, keep saying yes. Keep, like, keep being vulnerable. Um, Really good stuff. Thanks for breaking down both.

That was a big question, but I love what you guys said. And I think, yeah, I think there, there's a lot of landmines that I think people step on in the dating world and then also within marriage. One of them. Yeah. Like when these things do come to light these struggles that we often maybe just run in the opposite direction.[00:30:00]

And that might not be the right course of action. In some cases it is, in other cases it's not. And so that's where it's so important, like you were just saying, to have people in your life who are speaking in those relationships. And what I always advise young people to do is, like, don't just, like, wait for that to show up.

You know, wait for people to kind of give you feedback. Actively seek it out. And, and ask those hard questions that maybe you don't really want to know the answer to, but asking questions as simple as like, you know, mom or dad, if you can have that conversation, if you can't, you know, your close friends, like, do you see any red flags in this relationship?

And, and those are like really serious things that, um, They're really helpful questions to ask because then you can understand if this person is the right person for you. But I think one of the worst pieces of advice that I had heard was that any Lack of peace in a relationship is a sign that it's not meant to be I think it's like really okay.

It seems like we're on the same page there I think it's really bad advice because especially with um my experience and rachel sounds like your experience but There can be something underneath it all that is causing the [00:31:00] anxiety, the fear, the lack of peace, not necessarily that the person isn't the right one for you.

So definitely, uh, on the same page with you guys there, I feel free to comment on any of that, but I did have one question. I think there is this like delicate line to walk where. It can be easy when one person in the relationship is struggling, whether you're dating or married, but I think it's more prominent in dating to be the savior, to be the one who kind of shows up and just says, well, I'm going to solve all your problems.

I am going to be the source of your healing as opposed to someone who's kind of walking with you, supporting you, loving you through it, but not necessarily the one who is, you know, providing all of that healing. So I'm just curious if you have any quick advice on that. Like, how do you, you already alluded to it a little bit, how there were multiple people involved helping you, but any other advice you'd add in terms of not.

Kind of becoming that savior. I think it, I think in terms of looking ourselves in the mirror and being striving for humility, you know, we, we should try and get to the point where on a daily basis where, yeah, we're, we're not the savior, right. We're not [00:32:00] someone's savior. As a, as her husband, like there have been times where she, you know, we're, we're struggling with something in our marriage or there's something happening that's, that's causing anxiety or fear or sadness or, or hope, but like, we don't know if it's going to be fulfilled that hope and, you know, I'm struggling within myself, but I see my wife struggling and that, that's a whole nother layer and I'm just There are times where I'm like, wow, this is so overwhelming of, you know, I desire, I want to be, I'm made to be her support in this, um, and vice versa.

But, but from my point of view, how can I be a support for her when I have all this turmoil going on myself? And so one that's, that's a, that's a good indication in the midst of the chaos that I can be her savior, but I am in a way her sacrament. And so I need to go to the source of that sacrament. I need to go to Christ and be like, Jesus, I'm on my knees here.

I need you to provide for me, be my stability, be [00:33:00] my pillar, be my strength, so that I can, one, be healthy and whole, but two, turn to my wife and be able to give that strength, provide that strength that you give in our marriage. Yeah, I think it's just in general, it's so important, whether you're in a dating relationship, whether you're married, whether you're single, that you realize you can't fix yourself.

And if you have this idea that I can't fix myself and I need, I need God, I need a relationship with somebody who can come in and love me in the places that I'm struggling to love myself. If I, in my, in that, just that daily life, realize I can't save myself, then when I'm in contact and when I'm in a relationship with another person, I'm not looking to him to save me and I know that I can't save him.

It's, it's always bringing another person into that. And for us, we really believe that that third person is God. And so I can't, that's why when Michael or when Michael fails, I'm not like, Oh, I married the wrong person. It's, Oh God, will you please come into this [00:34:00] place of struggle for us? Will you please come in and will you help heal this marriage?

Um, we need you. I can't heal him. He can't heal himself. We need you. Same thing as when I struggle. Like I know it's, I can't depend solely on him. Like, we need God's grace. Yeah. I'm, I'm getting this, this, the movie that's coming to mind is, it's a, it's a wonderful life and at the beginning, how. Actually, um, his wife, Mary Bailey, but then a bunch of the community, it starts off with them praying for George Bailey.

They can't save him. They're praying to God to help him. And how does he help him? It goes through the story of It's a Wonderful Life. Which you should watch, by the way. Yes. If you haven't. It is a wonderful movie. It is a wonderful movie. No, good, good stuff. And I love, um, I love too how God works through other people, like he's brought amazing mentors into my life who've just helped me grow more than I could ever imagine a dream.

So really, really beautiful. I definitely could talk to you guys forever, but I wanted to, along the lines of, you know, dating and marriage, like what are some of the topics that need to [00:35:00] be discussed before marriage? And feel free to add if you think there are some that definitely need to be discussed even before engagement.

But I'm just curious, like if you'd kind of list off some of the ones, like definitely talk about this, definitely talk about that. Yeah. Sex. Ha ha ha ha ha. Easy. Oh my, maybe not, like, maybe in the beginning of dating. For marriage, right? For marriage, so the engagement, and the enga Keep it deep real quick. I guess I did that kind of tongue, tongue in cheek or like to, but it's, it's true.

Like in, to make the point that you need to talk about the important things, the vulnerable, the things of the heart, things that really take vulnerability. And from our experience of, of accompanying couples, teaching marriage prep, we've seen that. you know, they get up to this day where we talk about the theology of the body.

We talk about, you know, the, the deepest meaning of the relationship between man and woman and God, and then including not all, but including the [00:36:00] sexual relationship and the meaning of it, the divine and human meaning of sexuality, sex itself. And you get to that point and you get to the discussions and in the feedback, they always say, These are topics we've never talked about.

We've never felt comfortable talking about until this point. Uh, yeah, it's amazing. Skirted around the issue. Yeah. It's amazing that people have been at this point in their relationship when they're engaged, um, have not maybe even talked about what their expectations are, where they first learned about sex and how that's kind of formed them.

Um, and it's, It's kind of a taboo topic in some ways, um, but the reality is when you're married, that married life, it's really, it's foundation. It's like definitive expression is this marital sexual love. And if something's wrong in the bedroom, something's wrong in the marriage. I don't, that's very, very true.

Very clear. It's this place where you're called to be completely and totally vulnerable and intimate with your spouse. Um, so I mean, [00:37:00] just going back one second, it's, you know, when you're dating, it's easy to have preliminary discussions about like finances and what our parenting styles will be. But I think a lot of times, even that, There, there are these ideas that we can kind of project in on the future.

What's it going to be like when we have kids, what's it going to be like when we have, you know, this income. But I think it's really important to stay at the level of just this place where you're called to be most intimate with your spouse and say, where are we now with this? Um, what are, yeah, where are we now?

How have we been formed? And yeah, to be able to ask some of those questions that I would say a lot of times engaged couples are really not asking. Yeah. So I mean, I think, okay, this sex is the paradigm. It's the key because why, what, what is it truly? It's a giving of your whole self freely, totally faithfully and fruitfully through your body.

Through the most intimate parts of your body, um, and, and yourself with your [00:38:00] beloved. And, and so that then provides the key to seeing, like, am I called, am I called to marry this person? In terms of, am I called to, am I able, am I comfortable, am I at the point where I can share everything, in the right ways, in the appropriate ways, with her, with my spouse, bank accounts, social media accounts.

My baggage, my woundedness. Yeah. So, say, Dating. Yeah. Maybe you're not talking, you know, specifics about expectations regarding sex yet, taking that paradigm. Like, how can I grow? Am I called to grow? Do I want to grow, uh, you know, invulnerability, sharing myself, the deepest parts, deeper parts of myself with my boyfriend or girlfriend.

Then as you progress along the, the dating engagement, and I mean, it be said, you know, like we do believe that dating. Has an end point. It's as a trajectory you're [00:39:00] discerning. Am I called to give my whole life to this person? And that goes in stages, but yeah, that, that vulnerability, that giving of self, that's what the, that's, that's the paradigm for growing in relationship.

With someone and I call it to grow deeper, more vulnerable with this person and am I at the point where I can receive this other person's vulnerability, their deepest selves and love them in that? Yeah, good stuff. No, I love that. And for those of you who may have never heard of this in the Catholic church, when you're going to get married, you take this thing called the focus inventory.

And it kind of helps to see how much of on the same page you and your potential spouse, future spouses. And I know the topics you guys just hit on are on that inventory. And it's just meant to be a, like a conversation tool where you can kind of delve deeper into those topics. So you guys mentioned sex, you mentioned money, you mentioned parenting.

Um, I know kind of like your family of origin, like your in laws is really important to talk about too. Um, and then communication styles, things like that. Really good. No, all that makes so much sense. And that's, [00:40:00] um, I think there's a lot of beauty in that. And I know with, we were going through marriage prep, we had a mentor, a couple who kind of walked us through it.

So someone who had been married much longer than, you know, we obviously were, and, uh, you know, I think they had like 30 years or something in marriage experience and they were able to kind of guide us through some discussions there and it brought some like, you know, Difficult topics that things that we haven't really discussed one of the thing I would throw in there is I think it is really important to Like you guys modeled so well to be honest about your past I think so often it's easier to not talk about that stuff There is a balance like you mentioned Michael like you don't need to divulge every little graphic detail of maybe, you know Sexual mistakes you made but it is really important So I remember, you know having that conversation with Um, my now wife, when we were just dating before we got engaged, I knew that was important for me to kind of open up to her about those things before, you know, asking her to marry me.

And so that was a really painful day, difficult conversation, but a really good and fruitful one as well. So moving on from there though, because we only have so much time left, I wanted to ask you [00:41:00] guys, um, if you would, to kind of bring us into like the, the joyful, beautiful parts of your marriage. I think, like I mentioned before, So often when we come from broken families, we, you know, run from marriage.

And I think what we need to be shown is that marriage can actually be really beautiful. It can be really joyful. It can be really, really good. And so I think, um, yeah, if you would kind of take us into that, like tell us, share us, take a picture of kind of how the good and the beautiful has existed in your family.

Marriage has helped me to, it's helped me to grow in love of My wife, my children, but also kind of in the healthy way, grow in love of myself to like be able to receive and accept the gift of myself. Why? Because I've seen love in the eyes of the other person looking back at me, even when I feel most unlovable.

Um, but also, I mean, the story that's coming up, it's like I had this. God bless my parents. But I had this kind of deformation of like being able to love myself in, in terms of gift [00:42:00] giving and gift receiving. And, uh, like, I, like, I, I love sports. I love like sports gear and things like that, basketball jerseys and things like that.

And, but I, you know, because of the, the circumstances of life, we, You know, we were forced to live very frugally growing up and that was probably the most prudent thing. But that, that caused this idea of this rebellion against material things. Like, you know, I can't, you know, more of like to the extreme of material things are not important.

It's the spiritual that's important. But these were things that really made me, me like, like, you know, but to get to the point. First year of marriage, you know, my birthday was coming up and I was like, there were things I really like loved and wanted and were excited about it came out with the new NBA basketball jerseys and I was, I was just like, you know, yeah, they were so cool and she could tell, she could tell, like, you know, me looking them up and just researching them and just enjoying them, but when it came to my birthday, she kept asking me like, what do you want?

What do you want? And I was like, ah, [00:43:00] I don't know. I don't know. And I knew, but I was too afraid to ask. I was too afraid to say this, you know, um, it costs too much money or whatever. It's not needed. And she was like, Michael, what about the jerseys you've been looking at? Something like that. And that as small as it may seem was a huge act of like being loved and who I, who I am, my joys.

Receiving healing, interior healing, a shift in vision that I can be delighted in, I can, I can be rejoiced and celebrated in, in a way that I would really receive love. Um, and so, you know, take that and then, I mean, that was already a big thing, but that's kind of an, also an image for, The joyful moments that I've experienced being married to this lady, I would say, I mean, for me, I'm thinking of like the times where I've been so overwhelmed and I'm like, I just need to, I just need like a moment out of the house and sometimes there have been certain times where I'll go out and there's, I get this moment and I'm like, Darn it.[00:44:00]

I want to be back in that craziness. Like I would choose that any day over this moment of loneliness that I'm recording, that I'm experiencing right now. Okay. That doesn't happen all the time sometimes. Um, and I just, it's that idea that I have my people like, and my, like, I'm a part of a family and a family that loves me.

And then it there's a, it's a safe place to fail. It's a place where at the end of the day, Oh gosh, love these little children at the end of the day where it's like, this has been the worst day ever. And I asked the kids like, how was your day? And you're like, it's the best day ever. It just, it put things, it puts everything in perspective to me that, you know, for them, those little, those hiccups that I experienced, those struggles, like the fact that we're just all here together, really trying to love each other for them.

That's, this is the best thing. Um, and it's really helped me kind of. It's, it's really helped me rejoice and this gift, this gift that I've [00:45:00] been given. Yeah. It made me, it made me think of too, like, uh, walking with, with Rachel and like, as her husband, seeing the times where she is struggling with something and then God provides for her in a particular way in terms of friend, I'm thinking in terms of like friendships that, that, that God has kind of just, Provided when she's needed it the most to see her kind of grow through that, that has brought so much joy to my heart.

Um, and then that it's extended to, you know, my kids, our kids, when we, when we see them just growing as people and you see their particular personalities come out. Magdalena, our oldest, she's so caring and she has this, this friend, this great friend, they're, they're thieves, thick as thieves. Um, but I remember this friend, uh, they were, they were young, still really young.

She got upset and I saw right away, she, she started crying and I saw Magdalena's eyes get really big, really concerned. And she ran off trying to find a toy to give to her, to console her. Like those moments where, [00:46:00] Yeah. I'm just inspired by my kids and I can, I'm just led to gratitude and joy. And yeah, those, those are really bright moments of Thanksgiving and gratitude and for the gift of marriage.

Yeah. Life is meant to be shared. That's just no other way around it. You're meant to live, live in communion with others. So good. Thanks for sharing all that. And now I remember, um, the researcher, Brené Brown saying that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering and another way, I guess, to say that it's like, like you said, Rachel, we're made for love, we're made for belonging, like we're made for other people.

And certainly there's challenges that come along with that, but there's so much good and so much beauty. And yeah, just kind of reflecting on how I might answer this question. I was just thinking like, yeah, there's, there's like a lot of challenges within marriage and family life, but there's so much good kids to say the cutest.

Most hilarious thing I remember one morning I was up with my daughter up with Lucy and I was asking her Hey, Lucy, like what do you want for breakfast? And she's like, I want ice cream for breakfast. That's like [00:47:00] I was like that that's a good answer, but it's it's not very common I said to eat eat ice cream for breakfast and she's like she looked at me.

She's like no, it's really common Don't understand. So like, she got me , , um, and like 1,000,001 other cute things. I have like a note on my phone, like Apple note on my phone of just like ridiculously cute things that she said and just like love that, love seeing, you know, her kind of experiencing things for the first time and just how much love like she has for us too is really, really beautiful.

Just like the affection or like you, you guys described with your daughter, she just like, is very empathetic. Like if we go anywhere and a baby's like crying off way in the distance, she's like. She's like, she's like, she's like, baby's sad, baby's sad. Um, so there's a lot of beauty there and it's just really the favorite, my favorite part of the day to spending time with her.

But yeah, when within marriage, I think too, there are a lot of different seasons. I think that's an important thing to mention too, where you're going through like just harder times and there's times where it's like more [00:48:00] joyful and less. challenging and yeah, I think both kind of play on each other. And yeah, I remember just traveling with my wife has been one of the funnest things we haven't been able to do a lot recently, but years ago we, you know, went to Italy and we, um, had like just a beautiful trip there.

And there were certainly some challenges even on the trip. I'm not going to like sugarcoat that, but like those like kind of peaks, the highlight moments were just like. Gosh, this is bliss. This is heavenly. And so I think, um, you know, if you expect your marriage to be like that constantly, you're going to be disappointed.

Um, but there certainly is a lot of that along the way and the harder I think you work at your marriage and making it healthy, uh, the more of those that will, will come about and you can actually kind of engineer them. You can create those two, um, with some creativity. You don't just need to like throw money at things like taking really expensive trips and things like that.

So anyway, a lot of good stuff there, um, that you guys shared. Thank you so much for that. Um, I, uh, man, I want to talk to you guys forever, but I do want to kind of end on this note of just kind of what are some of the signs of a healthy marriage and family? Um, I think this is really important to see because so often in our world we see dysfunctional broken [00:49:00] families and marriages.

And so kind of what would you guys say are some of the signs of a healthy marriage and family? I'm going to start. Can you say, I'm sorry to each other. And that means everybody within the family. And that's something I've learned. I've definitely learned. Michael has modeled that for me to be able to know that you've done something wrong and to ask for forgiveness, um, and to say that, you know, I'm sorry.

And so, um, that's been really important, whether it's between, you know, something that's gone on between Michael and myself or between me and the kids that I've, you know, maybe not handled a situation the way I should have to, to ask for their forgiveness. I think it was sister Miriam James Heidman that said that, you know, in those places of woundedness that the depth or like the woundedness, there's the healing is even more important.

How does that go? Oh, yeah, I know. Like, sometimes we despair in the rupture of relationships, but we can rest assured the repair The repair is even greater. Is always greater than the rupture. Yes. That's a great way to put it. [00:50:00] The repair is always greater than the rupture. And so, yeah, if the reality is that there's going to be struggles, then are you able to, are you able to enter into them?

Are you able to say, I'm sorry? Are you able to ask forgiveness? And so we even have our kids model this, you know, when they do something wrong to be able to admit what they've done wrong and ask, like, do you forgive me? And then for the other child to be saying like, yes, I forgive you, which happens all the time because they're, they're so generous with their love.

Um, and it's just, that's, that's been really helpful for me. Oh my God. I heard a father of the bride say once at a wedding, like, you know, there'll be, there's the three important words, three beautiful words, I love you. But then he's, he talked about in marriage, you know, sometimes the more important words in the moment are other three words, I am sorry, I love you.

And I forgive you. And I think that goes to the fact that the family and marriage is like the whole gift of it is the fact that it's, uh, it's supposed to be the model and the experience of love, [00:51:00] true love, divine love, love that lasts forever. Even when we feel most unlovable, even when we've done things wrong or messed up.

So I, I second that wholeheartedly. Can, can you apologize truly? And can you forgive truly? That's a great sign. Other, other signs I thought of were, we're not talking about, you know, happy go lucky all the time, but there should be a abiding sense of joy that radiates from a healthy, not perfect, healthy family, you know, not, not, All the time, but an abiding sense of joy and gratitude.

And I think that that comes when the family is not turned in on itself, but realizes that they're seeking that source of joy from outside themselves, whether that be, you know, other families or especially ultimately God, like we're all relying on God here, right? We are. And so, um, I think really a joyful family is a faithful family.

Yeah, I mean, let's go there. I mean, because our, our encouragement, [00:52:00] our conviction is that, you know, God is the one who is faithful. I know so many of us have had experiences that have clouded our vision of God, but when those Those vision of those things that have clouded our vision are pulled back even for a second.

We can come to see God as, as the one who loves us, even when we've turned our back from him on him time after time after time. And this is what the cross is. This is, it's not just kind of the, the symbol of Christianity or, or our leader who rose from the dead, defeated death, but someone who went to the end of death, uh, of who went to the end of love and rejection by his own people.

And yet he's still, he never turned his back. He opened himself to them and gave himself to us. Um, and this is the model of love that our marriage is supposed to find its source in and radiate outwards. It's the model. It's the source, which our family is [00:53:00] striving to thrive off on. And bring to others in the messy, imperfect way that, that we're able to.

Love that. And that was one of the things I left out of the focus inventory. It's your relationship with God. It's super important to be on the same page of like what you believe and how you express that belief. So really, really good. And yeah, no, it's such a big question of like, what are the signs of a healthy marriage and family?

So I appreciate you guys like answering it. Some of the things that I even learned from you earlier in the conversation was, um, No, like a healthy marriage, maybe just focusing on that for a second, is able to make conflict healthy. They're able to kind of navigate the difficult waters of conflict and I know there's been a lot of research by the Gottman Institute and everything on that.

If you guys are interested, Dr. John Gottman and his team have been researching this for many, many years. They have a lot of great advice and tools for you to use. Navigate that because that could be a really difficult thing, especially if you come from a broken family, learning how to make that healthy when you've only seen examples of it going horribly wrong.

Other things I, you know, you guys mentioned too, like having a healthy sex life, having like intimacy, having [00:54:00] not something that, you know, is infrequent, but something that, um, is somewhat regular and, and beautiful. Like there's intimacy. There is not something that, you know, is a cause for division or something that's demanded, but it's just like that giving of self.

To each other, you know, going to the finances to just being on the same page, right? Not to say you need to be like millionaires or be have every system figured out. But I think being on the same page, having a budget, things like that is like a really good sign of a healthy marriage and therefore a family.

Um, I know for a lot of reasons, the young people in our audience, they especially need to hear. about boundaries when it comes to family situations. So like in laws and things like that, not done out of spite or done out of, you know, hate or anything, but just making sure it's like, Hey, you know, this is the way that we are going to interact with our family.

Especially if there's a lot of drama and brokenness in one side of the family. What else though? What else would you guys add? And what one, uh, I was thinking of one with the children, like, I think a sign of a healthy family is that the children feel free to fail. Like they're not, they don't feel that they need to have this, like, You know, perfect [00:55:00] track record.

They, they feel truly this freedom that they can try new things that can fail. They have like this level of autonomy. They're not like being, you know, overshadowed by their parent. Who's like punishing them for doing things wrong. And, um, you know, just that, or maybe, you know, coddling them, like there, there's some autonomy, some freedom they're given the kind of room to grow, I think is a really important sign.

So there's so much more we can say, but I'm just curious what else you guys would add. You've done so many good ones. You've met in so many situations, you mentioned being on the same page. And so yeah, that really, that really gets to the communication being on the same page in terms of how we discipline our children in terms of yes, you know, helping them to understand where we're in the boundaries, but something that Rachel's really read about and encouraged me to think about and embraces how is our discipline helping form them as persons, not just control their behavior.

Right. And so, um, and that, that's really the loving approach to discipline, to parenting, but yeah, that, that, that's been [00:56:00] such a place of conflict, then needing to resolve that conflict and get on the same page and then trying, trying to work together. So, yeah, no, I don't, I think you really had something when you said that giving the child a safe place to fail.

I think it really is the family. The family needs to be the safe place where I can fail and where I know I'm going to be loved. That's, I mean, that's huge because if, if I feel like I have to be perfect all the time for my spouse, for my children, and then, you know, minute two of the day that doesn't happen, well, then the whole day is ruined.

Um, and, and so the family, a really sign of a healthy family is like, I know I can fail here and I'm still going to be loved for every member that's involved. And that's the motivation and the source of the strength to then continue to grow. To grow. To grow. To seek help. Yes. And yeah, and I think that to like having a sign of a healthy family is a healthy family is with other healthy families.

Um, in relationship with other healthy [00:57:00] families. It's never good if the family is completely solitary and isolated by themselves. Boundaries. Absolutely. We've been there that needs to be in place. But healthy families gravitate, people gravitate towards healthy families. Yeah. You're talking friendships too, I mean, we've experienced where like a great source of fruitfulness in our marriage is, you know, having friends together, but also, um, having good, He has good male friends, good female friends, and then we're able to, you know, in the timing that works with our marriage, be able to go out for continue to grow as men in relationship with other men, women, etc.

And then we come back energized, able to then kind of report everything that we received and back into the family. And so it isn't, yeah. Like, in some ways, you know, reality is yes, you die to yourself when you enter into marriage, but the reality is you, you're called to die to yourself every day. Um, there, there is something [00:58:00] still within marriage where you're also called to continue to grow as an individual.

Like, I'm not lost because I've married Michael. I'm actually more myself. Because I've married Michael. You shouldn't be coming close to yourself by, I mean. In that marriage, in that family. I'm not lost because I'm a mother. I've had to give up a lot of things, but actually motherhood takes nothing away from who I'm called to be.

And so I think it's being aware of those things and shifting our perspective. Because a lot of times we do think that I have to sacrifice everything if I get married. But that's not the case. I actually become more of who I'm called to be if I get married. And if I enter into being a mother. Those sacrifices, those deaths itself actually lead to a, an emergence of more of who you are.

Love that. And like you said, it makes you more of yourself, which is so beautiful. I, goodness, there's so much I want to say, but I know we're out of time. A couple of final thoughts on this. Um, I think, A healthy [00:59:00] family, one of the signs of a healthy family marriage is that, like, you play together. You pray together and you play together.

I've heard it said, like, the family that prays together and plays together stays together. I think that's so true. Um, I think there is, in the healthiest families, like I've known, there's this sense of, like, peace and joy. Like, yes, there's stress. Yes, it's there's hard times, but it's not like constant.

There's a bit of like surrender and it's like, Hey, you know, we're going to get through whatever comes our way, um, which is I think really, really beautiful. And one of the things I wanted to mention too, if anyone's listening to this and maybe you have a marriage that's not in a healthy place, maybe it is dysfunctional and you're maybe even discouraged by hearing these things.

I just want to say, like, when it comes to our bodies, when we discover any sort of dysfunction, we discover illness or, you know, brokenness within our bodies, it's just a sign that we need help. It's just a sign that we need to go to the doctor. It's a sign that we need to some level of healing, and it's the same in our marriages and our families.

And so just would encourage you all, um, the Alexander house is one of the organizations that we direct marriages to that are struggling. So look them up. The Alexander house. We'll throw the link in the show notes. Um, the [01:00:00] book, impossible marriages redeemed by Layla Miller. Who's been on this show.

Different times. It has really beautiful stories of couples who were struggling, who are in a really rough spot, who were able to, you know, by God's grace and a lot of time, that's an important point. Um, they're able to transform their marriages into something like really beautiful and happy even. And so there's a couple of things I would mention, but just don't be discouraged.

Take courage in the fact that the fact that other people have done it means that you can do it too. But guys, with that, I'm just curious if people want to connect with you, want to follow you online, how could they find you? That's all him. Yeah. The best place is to go to Instagram or Facebook at AllThingsNueva, like our last name, Villanueva.

AllThingsNueva. Yeah. At AllThingsNueva. Yeah. That's the best place. Or AllThingsNueva at gmail. com. There you go. Yeah. If you want to contact us. There you go. Yeah. And I know you guys do speaking engagements and you have your own podcasts and things like that. So if you guys want to reach out to Rachel and Michael, please do.

In closing, I want to give you guys a final word first. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, just. benefit a lot from your wisdom. And [01:01:00] I know our listeners have too. And we'll just, yeah, help thousands and thousands of people for years to come. And so just, yeah, what final encouragement advice would you give to everyone listening to close us down?

You are worthy of being loved. Yeah, I just want everyone to know that you're worthy of being loved. And you're not alone. You're not alone. You have a loving father in heaven. And Whether or not that's where you're at, like I'll be praying for you and we'll be praying for you that, uh, that the love of the father shines through.

 We plan to put on more content like this in the future, especially about what a healthy marriage and family looks like. So we all know what to aim at when we're going about building our own marriages and families. So keep an eye out for that in the future. But in the meantime, if you want more practical tips on how to build healthy relationships and a great marriage, we have a free guide for you.

The truth is that all of us want love, but if we're honest, we're not perfect. really sure how to go about building it, and to make matters worse, we're often [01:02:00] discouraged by the prevalence of divorce and fidelity, all the bad things we see in the marriages around us, and we might even fear that our own marriage will end that way, especially if we saw any of that in our parents marriage.

In this practical guide for singles and couples, we offer a roadmap for love based on marriage research, time tested couples and Christianity's wisdom, the guide gives seven really practical tips that you can use to build healthy relationships and even a divorce proof marriage. And so if you want to get the free guide, and there's a bonus talk that comes along with it that I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, just go to restoredministry.

com slash marriage. RestoredMinistry. com slash marriage or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, they're going to be so grateful that you did it.

I know I would have been grateful if someone had done this for me years ago. And in closing, always remember that you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break that cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, [01:03:00] but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#124: I Wanted My Divorced Parents Back Together | Ethan

For many of us from divorced families, we unconsciously want our parents to resolve their problems and get back together. Even if that isn’t possible due to abuse or other extreme scenarios, we can’t help but want our family to be whole. 

Today’s guest felt that desire for his parents and family. In this episode, we discuss that and more:

• How anger, overeating, and lots of activities became his coping mechanisms

• How his parents’ divorce has affected him differently in different chapters of his life

• How much should parents tell their kids about the divorce?

• What he’s done to heal and grow, and how his life is better now

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Speaker: [00:00:00] For so many of us who came from divorced families, we can't help but want at some level for our parents to resolve their problems and get back together. Now, this isn't true for everyone, right? Especially in extreme situations where the divorce happened because of abuse or violence, there definitely needed to be some sort of a split.

But even if we know it isn't good for our parents to be together in that condition, we often can't help, but just want our family to be whole. And we might even feel ashamed for that, especially if people led us to believe that the divorce is this good, happy thing. My guest today felt that desire for his parents and his family to be whole, and in this episode, he and I discussed that and more.

Like, how as a boy, he would cry himself asleep because of the pain from his family's breakdown. How anger, overeating, and lots of activities became his coping mechanisms, which thankfully, he's outgrown. He shares how his parents divorce has affected him differently in different stages of his life. And in this episode, he just walks us through those different stages.

We discuss how much should parents tell their kids, divulge to their kids about the divorce. [00:01:00] It's a tricky topic, tricky question to answer. And finally, he opens up about what he's done to heal and grow and how his life is better now. Stay with us. Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family, so you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panerelli. This is episode 124. We're so happy to hear so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard lots of great feedback. One woman said this, I found Restored a couple of months ago, and it's given me the clarity and courage to actually begin to address the unprocessed trauma of my parents divorce.

Thank you for this ministry. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Black Zone of Films. In a recent survey by [00:02:00] Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of Millennials said video is their top content choice. And that's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that?

Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know you need to create video content, but there's just so many barriers to actually doing it. You don't know how to do it. You don't have the time to learn it. Um, you don't know who to hire, who's trustworthy, and it kind of leaves you feeling overwhelmed to the point where you just go back to what you know, to what's comfortable.

But that's where Blackstone films can help you. They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel good. They can create things like trailers, uh, promo videos and commercials, social media videos, documentaries, fundraising videos, uh, and courses. We actually produced two video courses with them.

We had an excellent experience. So, whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about helping you not just create video content, but, uh, produce content. clear win, a clear result for your business or your ministry, such as, you know, fundraising for your [00:03:00] ministry, uh, selling a course, getting leads for your business, getting students to sign up for your school, promoting your event.

And so much more. Blackstone has reached millions of people around the globe, uh, with their videos and they can help you too. And so to view their past projects and the services that they offer, uh, just go to their website, blackstonefilms. co not. com again, blackstonefilms. co or just click on the link in the shout outs.

My guest today is Ethan. Like so many of us, he is a child of divorced parents. His hope for you listening is that you know that there is hope and beauty that can rise from the ashes. He graduated from Lancaster Bible College with a degree in biblical studies and currently lives in Nashville, Tennessee, where he performs as a touring drummer.

His goal in life is to love God and others and to be loved by God and others and to make the world a better place. He loves meeting new people and hearing their stories. Without waiting any longer, here's our chat. Ethan, so good to have you on the show, man.

Speaker 2: Thanks, Joey. I'm really [00:04:00] happy to be here.

Speaker: I'm excited to dive into your story.

And as we usually do, just like go head first into it. How old were you when your parents separated and divorced?

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, when my parents separated, I was about eight years old. I was in third grade. And so they separated then. Um, and I forget when at some point later, they divorced, but I mean, effectively, it felt like they kind of divorced when I was that old.

Speaker: No, it totally makes sense. And, uh, yeah, it is kind of, there's kind of a gray area there, you know, I think often one or the other kind of leaves more of an impact depending on the story. So that totally makes sense to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, uh, what happened, what led up to it? What, what happened when it all went down?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm totally happy to share. And, uh, just as a, uh, I guess a disclaimer to the audience, like I definitely will be talking about some really difficult, um, and hard things, obviously in my story, but I also just want to say that I'm going to talk about a lot of things that have brought me. You know, joy and some peace from this.

So we're going to get to the bottom and we're going to get to the top. So just [00:05:00] uh, hang on for the ride here But uh, yeah, so when my parents separated I remember where we were We all had gathered in the dining room table and mom and dad were like, hey, we need to tell you something or Getting separated and so immediately, like, you know, we all kind of, I ran away out of the room crying and immediately, like, you know, all my siblings and I were sitting upstairs and my first thought was, we have to get them back together.

We have to get them back together. And I just, you know, didn't realize at the time that that's not something you can do as an eight year old. And so, yeah, that was, that was a really pivotal moment in my life. But later that day, I just went over to a friend's house, you know, just cause I think that was my gut reaction was to go be with other people.

So yeah, that's, uh, that's what it looked like when it started.

Speaker: Okay, I know that makes so much sense. And that, man, what I like kind of pure and innocent desire of like, man, I want my family to be whole. I want my parents to kind of work through this. And I think the more people I've talked to, you know, who come from broken families, like even if they see, you know, especially in some [00:06:00] extreme situations, the value of like, okay, there, it was dangerous or there was abuse or whatever we had to, there had to be some sort of a split.

There is always, I think that desire of like, man, wouldn't it be so good if my parents could just work through this stuff and we can have like a whole family. And I remember with my siblings and I don't even know what happened, but it was one night where things were kind of tense at home. This was like, you know, kind of years after the divorce.

And there was some arguing and some like, you know, even crying, I think. And I remember someone just saying like, and all I've really wanted was just like for our family to be whole. And for some reason that just like struck a nerve in me. And I was like, yeah.

Speaker 2: Hmm.

Speaker: Like that's what I want to. So I think that's a desire.

So many of us feel.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker: I am. No, I wanted to go deeper into your story too. I'm curious, you know, in the months and years that followed and everything leading up to how did that all affect you?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. And I feel like there's so many different ways to tackle that because, you know, I'm sure there's, you know, how it affected me in elementary school, middle school, high school, college and beyond.

Yeah, I just, I [00:07:00] mean, some immediate ways I think that it affected me. I'll kind of start there and then go forward a little bit. So when I was in elementary school, you know, what that looked like for me was I had always been relatively carefree. Like I'd never really gone through anything that hard in life up to that point.

And so, you know, crying myself to sleep became just like a very frequent, like very normal thing. Even though it wasn't normal. Um, I started experiencing some bullying at school, you know, just different things like that. Yeah. Um, you know, when frequently like eat a lot of seconds to just kind of like try to mask my feelings and like feel a little bit better as a little kid.

Um, so that's how it affected me in the short term. And then once I got to middle school, really, we kind of hit a moment where I realized that, Hey, you know, something that helps me not feel bad is doing things and just really being involved in a lot of activities. And so. I mean, anything that I could possibly do, I did Boy Scouts, youth groups, sports band instruments was just doing [00:08:00] all of it.

And so that's kind of how it affected me more so in elementary and middle school. And then I think at home things change too, you know, cause obviously you're missing seeing the way we had our schedule was we'd see our dad every other weekend. So, you know, definitely missed seeing him as much. You know, and things were just different to like at my mom's house, where we spent, you know, the school weeks, just there's kind of that lack of, Oh, like, I guess we have all have to do some more tours now.

And there's, you know, more conflict just between siblings and stuff. So, you know, it was something we were all trying to figure out together. And so I think it definitely got more difficult, but those are some of the immediate impacts.

Speaker: No, that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, man, what a difficult thing for a kid to go through.

You know, like looking back, we can like summarize that. Kind of easily effortlessly almost, um, but my goodness, when you're in the midst of it, that is heavy stuff.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And just, I think one of the, the biggest moments that stands out for me. Um, so I really, you know, did have a tough time through like the rest of elementary school and [00:09:00] it kind of came to a head when I was in sixth grade and I, you know, I'd frequently been crying myself to sleep and there was this one night where I was just overwhelmed with tears.

And, uh, for me personally, like I, at that point did believe in God and had that relationship, uh, with him. And so for me, it was on one hand, like I've been raised to believe that God is good and all of this stuff. But on the other hand, my whole world has fallen apart. And so here I am at eight years old, like trying to reconcile these two things.

Like, all right, what's really true. And so at that point in my life, most nights I would just go to bed and I'd pray like, God, just, you know, get my parents back together. Just. Help me out. Like if you're real, just show up. And so, you know, for four years, for three, three years, I didn't hear anything. Like not a word.

It just felt like I was calling somebody on the phone and nobody was answering the other end. And then I had this really, really interesting, like very special moment in my life where I was on my bed one night. In sixth grade, and I was just [00:10:00] crying, like really distraught and unlike any other time in my life, I just felt the presence of God come down on me and he said, Ethan, I have always been here for you, Ethan, I always will be here for you.

And I have a plan for your life. And that was the moment that changed everything for me, because beyond a shadow of a doubt, I knew I was like, all right, like God is real and that's who I'm going to follow and give my life to. And so I know that that's not everybody's story. And, you know, a lot of Christians may not have even had the moment like that.

But the reason I share that is that was just a really big personal turning point for me of, okay, like the worst thing possible could have happened to me did happen. And still somehow, you know, the Lord has showed up and has brought like this beautiful moment out of tragedy.

Speaker: Beautiful. Just sharing that.

And I can totally relate, you know, My story is a little bit different. It was really through meeting friends of mine who were just really like joyful people and I was miserable. Like I was so miserable. I was, you know, hooked on porn and I was just [00:11:00] struggling in a lot of different ways with like emotions, like anger and loneliness, depression, anxiety, like all those things.

And I meet these people who are just like, they're peaceful. They're joyful. Like they're happy people. They're not fake. They're real too. And I was like, like, what in the world? Do you have like whatever that is, like I want it. And so that's really what led me to, to kind of go deeper with faith and build a relationship with God.

But yeah, no, I love hearing that story. And that's like, what a grace, what a gift to like, have that moment.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So that really, you know, that gave me such a strong foundation, I think, cause I, we all know that middle school can be full of ups and downs, but for me, my mom said this thing that I've always thought was really beautiful.

She said, you know, feeling grief. Is like one end of the pendulum and the further that you've swung on that side, the further you can really feel joy on the other side. And I really have seen that ring true in my life. You know, like if I could change the divorce, obviously I would, but, you know, I see that.

Because I've had to deal with such grief at such a young age, like that really has just given me just [00:12:00] an appreciation for the beauty of the things in ordinary moments, you know, like if I'm outside and we're all loading a moving truck, maybe other people would be like, Oh, this, like, I'm tired. This is hot.

This is horrible. And I'm like, guys, The sun is shining like it's 60 degrees. Like this is amazing, you know? And so I just think that's a really great thing, you know, because life is really, really difficult, like excruciating at times, but it also really does have this capacity just to be beautiful. Um, and so I see that as, you know, one of the good things that came out of that experience.

Speaker: 100%. One of the things I've noticed with people like us too is kind of based on that contrast principle that you just articulated so well, um, we, we have like more capacity for empathy I've noticed. And I, I would bet this is true for most people who've been through any sort of trauma, you know, cause I, I see divorce and family falling apart as a trauma.

And that's what the studies say too. And the stories and all that, as you know, but yeah, it seems like it kind of opens a part of your heart that maybe wouldn't have otherwise been open for other people who are also suffering. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. [00:13:00] And I think the last thing I want to say, cause uh, I'm trying to keep, you know, our audience in mind here, people who have also like their parents have gone through divorce.

Um, our situation was a little bit unique just in the sense that we didn't know why our parents got divorced and they, they never told us. So, you know, I'm very, very grateful that they never brought us in the middle of anything. You know, there was never any like shouting or screaming matches that we witnessed.

You know, but there was just kind of this really weird void. So I know that everybody's story is unique, but I just kind of wanted to provide that little context there.

Speaker: Yeah, that's helpful. Let's stay there for a second. What's your advice to a parent listening right now? Like they're going through a divorce and maybe they were divorced and maybe they're not sure how much they should share with their kids.

I'm curious, kind of your opinion on, you know, what, what should they say? Easy question.

Speaker 2: Yeah. If you're, if you're a parent going through that, I just want to let you know. Okay. That as a child of a situation like that, that, you know, my heart goes out to you. And I know that I'm sure there's a [00:14:00] lot of complex factors that have led to, you know, your present circumstances.

And so I think when you're talking with kids, you know, it's totally different ballgame when you're talking with elementary school kids versus somebody in middle school versus somebody in high school. But I think, you know, the best thing you can do, and I feel like the best thing my parents did was they just.

Like individually, you know, they didn't have the husband, wife thing figured out, but the parent thing, like they had that down there, their focus was always, Hey, how can we both be really present and involved in love and listen to our kids through this process? And so, yeah, I think when it comes to the details of the divorce, you know, like that's not something that they need to know at a young age, you know, when they're older, it definitely is important to unpack that.

I think at some point, but yeah, I think it's, you know, when, if you're focusing on really being a great parent and just keeping conflict to a minimum, like that really does have positive dividends for your kids. It really does help them through that process.

Speaker: Good advice. And I would echo what you said. And I kind of go to [00:15:00] the other end of the spectrum too.

I've seen situations where parents overshare and you were alluding to this too. And it really causes a lot of damage, you know, that whether they're at war with each other and they're trying to, you know, whether it's conscious or not, they're trying to maybe put down the other spouse or make them look bad.

So they kind of win the kid to their side, or, you know, it's just like, they feel like the kids deserve to know. I think there is a possibility of oversharing to where it becomes like this big burden that the children then carry around. I've seen that in many situations. And so I think there is a middle ground, you know, I think on one end leaving, not saying anything, you know, it's probably super confusing to a kid.

Cause like. Why in the world is this happening? On the other hand, caring too much can be kind of damaging too. So I think the, your advice on making it kind of age appropriate and not needing to like divulge all the sins and secrets about kind of what went down, I think is, is really good. And I've heard people say, you know, when you're talking to your kids about sex too, like it's kind of similar, like you want to give [00:16:00] them just enough information to kind of satisfy their curiosity, but not more.

And then when they get older and they have more questions and they need to know more information, you give them kind of more. So you're kind of like unveiling, kind of peeling back the layers a little bit of a time. And I think that's really good advice when it comes to, uh, this whole divorce topic as well.

I'm sure there's a lot more we can say there, but I'm curious to kind of keep going through the different chapters of your story. And I love that you broke it down that way. Cause I think it's so true that it, um, the struggles, the trauma, like kind of surfaces comes out in different ways as we kind of progress through life.

So yeah, tell us more.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll just kind of skip ahead on to high school. So, or I guess, yeah, middle school and high school. So I think one thing, and again, you learn a lot, it's just, it's wow. You really do learn so much at different stages because I can look back now at 27 years old on middle school and high school and, College and say, oh, that's when this was happening or that's when I was experiencing that.

But at the time I didn't have language for that. I didn't know what that was. I just kind of knew how I felt. So [00:17:00] a lot of times the way that I felt during that season of my life was that All of my feelings were just wrapped up together just like and I couldn't even name them, you know There was anger in there.

There was depression in there There was sadness and it just felt like this swirling tornado that I could not quell just this storm inside me And so It was really difficult for me to be alone. It was really difficult for me to do anything. Like I remember, you know, even up into high school, like if I, everybody was out of the house and I was just had a day off school or something, like if I was at the home alone, like it would lead me, it would leave me in tears, like inevitably, just cause I could physically not stand like being alone with my emotions.

And so. You know, the way I coped with that was by doing a lot of activities, but really spending a lot of time with friends. I found that, you know, consistently the thing that always helped me feel better was just having like other people I could be around, you know, just to joke around and do fun stuff with, but also on occasion, just really be honest about how I was feeling.

[00:18:00] And that's one thing I'm super proud of that, you know, I was able to do and that I was able to have friends like that. And so I think at any age, you know, if you're older than me or younger than me, like that's always just a really great thing is to just have, you know, you don't need a lot of people, but if you just have a couple of people who you really, really trust, just to spend time with them and to share what's really going on.

And then I think the other biggest thing for me because of that, you know, it just felt like there was never any peace inside, but For whatever reason, I had originally started playing drums as a kid, and I said, Mom, I want to play trumpet. And she said, No, you need to learn rhythm first. And so that's actually like why I'm still a drummer today, which is very funny.

But I remember the first time like I sat behind a drum set, I was just it was electric. It was so much fun. And then I got a drum set for my birthday in seventh grade and set it up in the basement. And I would pop in the Foo Fighters greatest hits, which is That is a great record. And when I would play along to that, I mean, Joey, it just felt like everything in my world was right.

It just felt like all of my [00:19:00] spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical chaos, just like quieted down. And it felt like all of that came together just for like this really beautiful, beautiful piece. And so honestly, like, I think that was the first time in my life where I just really was like, Like I feel okay.

And that was really significant for me, you know, and as an older adult, I can be like, Oh yeah, well, you know, you're physically moving your body and I can like try to explain all this stuff, but just at a very like human instinctual level, like that was just such a beautiful gift that I was able to receive.

And honestly, like. That aside from my faith and my friends and my family, like that has been the biggest influence in my life that has really helped me just make sense of it all. Cause you know, I think we all need something like that. And you know, whether that's a sport, whether that's art, whether that's, you know, insert your passion here, like that space is really sacred.

And I think it's a good thing to have. Um, cause when you can feel okay, you know, or you can feel, I guess, normal, [00:20:00] Wow, that's not the right word I'm looking for. When you can get to a baseline level of like peace, I think that's a really good thing because then you're able to bring that into other spaces in your life and offer that to other people.

Speaker: So good. No, I love all of that. And what I hear you saying too is I've heard, um, some psychologists talk about like our emotions on a scale, like our basic emotions on a scale where you have like hyper arousal and hypo arousal. And the way it was explained to me Was, you know, we're kind of meant to be at, if you think of a scale of one to 10 at the bottom of that scale is called hypoarousal where you're totally depressed, like kind of lifeless.

Um, at the top of the scale is called hyperarousal. That's where you're completely anxious. Like you're feeling terror essentially. And we'll kind of go up and down that scale throughout our life. Um, but we want to be like in the five or six range where we have peace, but we may have a little bit of an excitement, uh, like a healthy stress or, you know, a little bit of like a, You know, pop intercept sort of thing.

And, um, that sounds like that's what you experienced. You were kind of like up and down on that scale. And then finally there was something that kind [00:21:00] of helped you stay in that equilibrium, which makes so much sense. And I had a similar experience to kind of like you were saying when I was surrounding myself with like these other friends who were just living like really happy, healthy lives compared with like the sports buddies who I was hanging around with who just weren't.

There was just something about that that was contagious to me. And I was like, okay, now, you know, I certainly didn't earn or get to like emotional mastery overnight by any means, like it was still messy for me. But in time I noticed myself kind of leveling out and better able to, you know, kind of regulate as I know it's kind of a psych term, but it's like, basically, how do you go from being up or down on that scale to getting back to the middle?

As quickly as you can. And so that's what I hear you saying. Anything you would add to that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a great segue because on the scale of kind of hypo arousal versus hyper arousal. Honestly, I live probably most of my life at like a seven or eight, like the whole way through like high school and college, just.

Flying just doing as much as I could just like, you know, and some of that was really good, [00:22:00] just like beautiful ambitions to like, want to just really make the most of life. But there definitely was also a dynamic of trying to kind of outrun the pain. And I want to be clear that like, that's something that, you know, I still struggle with today.

And like, you know, it was very prevalent in my life, probably right up until about COVID and even after that. But the first time I realized it and became conscious of it, I was working at this summer camp for the second year in a row. And I didn't have time. I only could work there for one week. Um, and I was so excited.

And when I went back, I was just exhausted the whole week. Like I was just tired. It wasn't the same. And I remember one of these camp counselors sharing a story from when they were a kid about like wanting to run away. And my first thought was like, you know, that sounds pretty nice. Like no stress, no responsibilities.

And I was like, Oh my gosh, I was like, man, I need to I need to rest. And in that moment, I became consciously aware as like going into my junior of high school, like, Oh, I'm trying to outrun this thing. Like I'm trying to outrun the pain that I feel. And that was the first time that I really became aware of it.

And so, you know, still [00:23:00] obviously was going a mile a minute, but like tried to like take a couple of things off that I like was over committed to. Um, I think that's a word that accurately describe my life a lot during that time. And so, yeah, I kind of became aware of that then. And then I'm sure there's other stuff in high school that I'm forgetting, but really that kind of followed me into college.

You know, I went to a Bible college, which was a really good experience for me. And then my sophomore year, we took this class called student and family counseling, uh, which is basically, you know, you're trying to learn the basics of how to Help people who are going through tough things. And so the first assignment was right about the toughest thing that you've ever been through.

And I was like, Oh, okay, well, that's easy. I've already worked through that. I'm past that. You know, this is great. And then I wrote about my parents divorce and realized, in fact, I was not past it and I had a lot to work through there. And so. For anybody who's in that, that college space, I think the biggest thing I realized was that for me personally, the way we all process negative emotional differently, but instead of me becoming angry and directing that outwards [00:24:00] at my parents or other people, my default mode was to always turn that inward of like, Oh, what's wrong with me?

Or why do I feel this way? And so it kind of manifested as depression for me a lot growing up. So in college, I realized, Oh, no, like there's actually a lot of anger here. And so I really, for the first time began to look that in the face and like, how do I process, how do I express this, you know, to my parents?

And that led to some pretty, pretty raw moments for me. And so, you know, I want to be honest and say to the people that are struggling in that time of life, that it's okay. Like. I always tell people life after high school, like, you know, it will be worse than you could ever imagine, but it will also be like way better than you could ever imagine.

And there was nights where, you know, I'd be screaming in my car, just God and just praying and just so angry, you know, and then also there would be these moments of, you know, healing and just connection with others. And so I want to be honest with that, that like, you know, there is layers to this thing.

And I know psychologists and therapists will tell you that [00:25:00] it's, you have to kind of reprocess it at each age. Um, but that was certainly my experience in that college, college era. Wow.

Speaker: No, that's deep and really good. I think for anyone, like you said, in that stage of life right now, and I can totally relate to the anger.

I can relate to entering new chapters in life and. Different brokenness in me, like surfacing again, different parts of me kind of coming out that, you know, maybe were somewhat dormant in the past. And, uh, I remember, yeah, similar to you, like being in college. And I remember, uh, the girl I was dating at the time, great girl, you know, I just had this experience of just feeling like super broken.

That was like the best language I could put to it. Like I felt like kind of fragmented, like, yeah. So, you know, some form of depression, I guess, and just overall just feeling, yeah, broken. And, you know, I didn't, I knew I wasn't supposed to like, take it to her. Um, and so eventually similar to what you were describing, I was able to get therapy on campus and that was helpful and try to just make sense of the emotions and what I had been through in the past and not just like what I had been through in the past, but how it was affecting me today.

And, and that's 1 thing I think a [00:26:00] lot of us overlook is we think that the past is like in the past, but sometimes as 1 of my guests said, the past lives in the present. And that's really like the, one of the earmarks, one of the signs of trauma is that we're carrying that stuff with us. Like our brains almost can't differentiate often that what had happened in the past wasn't kind of brought to closure.

And therefore we are living our life as if we're in the midst of it right now. And that's a really difficult thing to carry with you.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think a therapist or somebody said to me one time that you're every age that you've ever been. And I was like, Oh man. You know, because you kind of, there's those parts of you that you still, you know, feel those things and you can depend if you haven't resolved them to process things like that.

And so, you know, while I started that work in college, I just did it for one semester, I kind of just dipped my toes in and didn't really, you know, fully dive in, which was fine, like, Maybe I just wasn't ready at that point. And so after college, I'd moved down to Atlanta, Georgia and was doing a new job, was doing a ton of music stuff, was like going to a new church [00:27:00] and kind of in a lot of the same way, like really lived in that over functioning mentality, but just on a, in a new place on an even bigger capacity and, and, you know, spread even more thin.

And it wasn't really until COVID hit that. It was the week before COVID. I went into a therapist's office because there was somebody that I was making no money my first year out of college. And, uh, they had like a therapist who would meet with you for a discounted rate because they finished all their schooling, but like they're getting their hours to get licensed.

And so I could actually afford it, which was awesome. And I got super blessed, uh, to actually be paired with like one of the best therapists of all time. And I'm very, very grateful for them. And, uh, yeah, I just walked in and I was like, you know, I've had one of the best years of my life. Like I've overcome a lot of challenges by moving to this new city, but something's off.

Like I know that something's off deep inside me and I just can't figure out why. And then, um, that really unlocked a process. And because of COVID and the slow down that I just had this time in my life to actually do the work and really [00:28:00] dig in. And so honestly, yeah, one of the biggest things that has helped me in my journey is therapy.

So I did that for three and a half years and I could, man, I really, I could probably write a whole book on everything that I've learned. But it really does take six to nine months of doing therapy on a weekly or bi weekly basis to really start seeing, um, and understanding some of the lessons that you've learned.

And I think this analogy might help some people who are, if you're weary of therapy, like I totally get it. You know, there's a lot of people who are, um, so I ran track in high school. And not because I wanted to, it's just because we didn't have a baseball team one year. And I was like, Oh, what the heck?

You got to do something. And so the first day of practice, our coach is like, you don't know how to run. And I was like, what are you talking about? I've been running my whole life. Who do you think you are? And then he proceeded to break down the mechanics of running, how, you know, you, in order to have the fastest time, you really have to make sure you're lifting your knee.

Fully extending your leg, like driving through, like kicking your feet. And then I realized, Oh, I was very wrong. There is a right way in a wrong way to run. [00:29:00] And the way I try to explain therapy to people is, you know, you might say, of course, I know how to feel my feelings. Like I've been me my whole life.

But until somebody really breaks it down for you and says, Hey, this is how you can sit with a negative emotion. And this is how you can name it and process it and give it space to be felt. You know, like you just don't know how to do that. And so for me, over a very long period of time, like this was not an overnight thing, slowly week by week, day by day, I learned what it was to find like one little feeling or one little negative thing that I can kind of pull out of that tornado.

And just sit with and like, take the 90 seconds or so to really feel that emotion and then start to process it. And it was just awesome, man. Like, I think for the first time in my life, I was really able to start taking some of those bigger chunks and move things out of this, like, bucket of unawareness, just all this stuff I was struggling with that I didn't even know about.

I moved it into the awareness of like, okay, this maybe is why I'm feeling this way and why I'm having these issues. And then slowly, as I was ready at a much slower pace than I wanted [00:30:00] to, because I was like, come on, why aren't we done with this yet? You know, just bit by bit, I was really able to process those, um, and get to a point where I really started to feel, you know, emotionally healthy.

Um, and I'd say like kind of where I was at the end of that, you know, fully transparent, like you will still have days where you're depressed. You will still have a lot of ordinary days and you'll still have some really good days. But I think I'm at a point now where when I'm healthy, I can really process my emotions in the moment or like day by day.

And so instead of just all of this backlog of feelings continuing to pile up and just kind of overwhelm me all at once, like a tidal wave crashing down, I can kind of take it like smaller wave by smaller wave, which is a much better way to live. And probably one of the biggest concepts I took away from therapy was, you know, the window of tolerance where they talk about, you know, trying to like regulate yourself where, you know, sometimes Like you just have this much energy to be able to feel things.

And so you want to stay inside that zone and you know, you can let negative stuff into the stuff to the degree that you can handle it. And then if you can't handle it, [00:31:00] you know, you just take a step back and be like, Hey, that's not where I'm at today. But I think overall therapy has helped me stay.

Increase my window of tolerance and just stay a little bit more regulated on a day to day basis.

Speaker: No, and that, that's like a transformation in itself, you know, from maybe being controlled by your emotions, or maybe your emotions drive you to act in a certain way that's like harmful to you to them being able to say, Nope, my emotions are not the boss.

Like I'm in control. But I'm not going to disregard them. I'm going to give them the space that they need. There's a reason they're there. They deserve some validation, some acknowledgement, but again, they're not going to be the boss of me. They're not going to control me. So what a good and like healthy way to process it all.

And I, um, that's so fascinating. You mentioned like unawareness to awareness. Cause we, we've noticed this trend in the interviews we've done on this podcast, that a lot of people kind of have that shift. Kind of on a meta like, um, macro level when they're looking at kind of the brokenness in their life that they might like you and I experienced understand that, man, yeah, I'm dealing with all these emotional problems, like anxiety, depression, loneliness.

[00:32:00] I maybe I'm acting out, you know, struggling with this, whatever anger, you know, reacting on anger or looking at porn or whatever other unhealthy behavior. But they so often don't have like a full awareness around it or they don't trace it back to its origin. Like how did this start? Where did this come from?

What's the root of it? Not just like the symptom. And then when they go through that period of moving from like unawareness to awareness, there's like this kind of eye opening this aha moment. Like when people say where it's like, okay, this is making more sense. Like it can connect the dots. I can understand kind of why you know, I do this, why I do that.

Um, but then they need tools kind of like you were saying to be able to deal with it all. And that sounds like what therapy gave you, which is so, so beautiful. And I think at that point, you know, you're able to then kind of move into this final stage of like, okay, so again, you're going from unawareness to awareness, then from the awareness, you kind of understand the things and you need to go into this like processing or healing stage.

And then it seems like the final stage there is like some form of freedom, not perfection, not like utopia that's not real, but some form of like freedom where it's not [00:33:00] controlling you anymore. So you somewhat described that model, which is really interesting. And again, that's not something we made up. It was just like something that popped up at us after doing like dozens of these stories, which I thought was.

Super, super interesting. One last point and then I'd love to hear if you have any thoughts on this is, um, how young, um, the Swiss psychologist, I think it was not endorsing everything he said, but he had this really interesting quote that he said until kind of talking about awareness and unawareness, he said, until you make like the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate.

So I think there is truly this kind of unconscious part of us that's really controlling our behavior and that until we go through the process that you described of like taking it out of the unawareness into the awareness from the subconscious into the conscious, that's when a lot of freedom can be found.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And that certainly is a process because when you're a kid, it's I feel bad. I always feel bad. I want to stop feeling bad. What makes me stop feeling bad? Insert anything that makes you stop feeling bad, whether it's good or a bad habit. [00:34:00] So yeah, and those things that you're unaware of, you know, those can carry on into your early twenties.

And if that's you, or if you're like way older than that, like, Dude, don't feel bad for that for a second. Like I want you to celebrate the fact that you may be for the first time coming aware of, Hey, there's some things weighing me down that maybe I don't even know about. Cause I think the biggest thing is really celebrating those little steps because it's truly not about arriving.

To a place of like, you know, happiness or all of these things. It's just every single day. You really got to celebrate those moments where you gain a little bit of healing in one area or a little bit of perspective in another. Yeah. And I just think everything you said with that quote is so true. Yeah.

Cause the things that we don't know. Do still affect us whether we're aware of them or not, but, you know, even moving those things into your awareness, like that's great. And, you know, if you don't have the ability to like figure all that out today, that's okay. And the second thing that was coming to me there.

[00:35:00] So that's, I think, really where I started, like somewhere near the end of my therapy, we kind of dived into like negative core beliefs. And I really became aware of some of those for the first time, like things that I subconsciously believed about myself. That were really affecting the way that I lived and to even just be able to name those was like, Oh my gosh, you know, sometimes I think for me, like, I'm not going to remember all of them, but like, I think one of the biggest ones was like, I have to do this all by myself or, you know, like it's all up to me.

And, you know, that's such an American thing that we celebrate of, yeah, go get a move to a new city, start a new job, find a band, like, look at you go pick yourself up by your own bootstraps, but that's just not how the world works. And there is some good virtue, you know, to being somebody who's courageous and willing to try and do things.

But I want to be transparent and just say that there's also a really shadow side to that of just believing that it's all up to you. And that if you, you know, don't figure it out, like. Your life [00:36:00] is going to be a waste or it's all going to go wrong. And so that's definitely something that at once I heard that, I was like, Oh my gosh, I could look back over all of my life and say like, yeah, I was just really driven by this, this fear and just this need to kind of, you know, move forward at all costs.

And so, yeah, and. I think towards the end of my therapy journey, you know, I had done a lot of good work. I was one of my biggest dreams. I don't think I mentioned it yet was always to be a touring drummer. That was just this big, like thing I wanted to do. And I had finally gotten a chance to do it. You know, I had toured all these States and I was just like, you know, circumstantially it was on top of the world.

But right after I got back from that, I remember sitting in my therapist's office and just telling her it feels like, um, if there's a Canyon, right. It feels like somebody put three steps on one end of the canyon and said, all right, go jump to the other side. It felt like I had just, or it felt like I had built these steps and I was running as fast as I could and jumping and just could not like overcome, you know, these negative feelings.

And [00:37:00] I really, you know, just hit this moment of kind of hopelessness. And I share that just to be honest that, you know, like, it's not like this super linear thing where you're just going to feel, you know, totally great at the end. And it's like, Hooray. You know, there's, it's truly like to the left, to the right, back, forward, up, down, and you know, that was a real moment that I experienced, but on flip side of that, you know, there's also some other really beautiful moments of just ordinary things.

Like in that year, you know, I had a chance to like go and tour and play drums, uh, which you would have thought, Oh, the best day you spent that year was traveling to this really cool place to play this awesome show. And actually my favorite day that year was getting to go home with my family. Go pick apples at an apple orchard and sit on the couch and just watch some football, you know?

And so I, I want to share that because I think, you know, it's easy in our society to believe that pursuing your dreams and building your best life is the path to healing and wholeness. And I think what's beautiful is [00:38:00] that, you know, the things that can really help give us a meaningful, purposeful, whole life are a lot of the things that are just available to all of us.

And I think that's so beautiful. Things like breathing, things like taking a walk outside, things about just like sharing a meal or a cup of coffee with a friend. You know, we don't need to master ourselves or become like the best in the world at something to be okay And I just I think there's such a beauty in that and so I know that's probably not everybody's default response to you know The things they've gone through but i'm sure that there's somebody out there who you know Just is kind of that that was their response was I have to do everything and so to that person I just want to take a moment to say that you can rest that you're worthy You Of that rest.

And there is a peace and there's a hope available to you and that you don't have to strive to find your worthiness. Your worthiness and value has already been bestowed upon you because of who you are, and there are people who can [00:39:00] celebrate that and really love you and lift you up for who you are, where you are beautiful.

Speaker: And I think you'd find this. What I've learned is that there's so many of us actually who do struggle with what you said of. Kind of this fierce independence and feeling like, man, it's all on our shoulders. And if we alter it all, we're going to, you know, have, it's going to have serious consequences. So that's a freeing and thank you for saying that there's so much more in your story.

I want to get into, um, but I do want to shift to relationships. So I'm curious kind of, yeah. How did you see your parents divorce, everything that happened in your family, affect your relationships, especially your dating relationships?

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. So for me, I had one serious relationship.

So my senior year of high school, I dated a girl I was friends with, and we dated for nine months and just had a really great relationship, you know, and then kind of at the end of high school, I just realized that, you know, I was going on to college and different things. And so I was the one who actually broke up with her.

And I felt horrible about that. I felt devastated, you know, cause it wasn't like [00:40:00] there was anything wrong with her. I just knew that I wasn't ready to get married because I was not trying to get married at 18, 19 or 20. And based off of what I had been taught, you know, that was kind of the purpose of dating was like just to get married.

And so that really wrecked me. And I think, you know, kind of an unconscious agreement. That I made with myself was, well, I'm not going to date anybody until the next person I date is the person I'm going to marry, which is a dumb agreement to make with yourself. But I think that I was just so hurt by that.

And I didn't want to cause that pain to somebody else. You know, that, that was kind of unconsciously what was going on for me. And so when I got to college, you know, I had tons of opportunities, you know, to like, I was just around so many great people and I definitely could have, you know, gone on dates, but I think half jokingly, half serious.

I was like, well, I don't want to get married. I don't want to get married young. You know, I gotta, I gotta play drums in a band. And that was kind of my cop out funny response. But you know, by the time I was 21 and my third year of college, I was like, Oh man, this is a really deep [00:41:00] desire that I have. And so to be honest, like I've gone, you know, on a lot of dates, but I haven't really been in a serious relationship since that time, which, so I'm definitely still working through that.

And I feel like I'm just now kind of getting to a point where I'm ready. To jump into, I guess, kind of that. And so I think that is probably one of the negative ways that I don't know, I guess like the divorce, but also like, you know, I'm sure that has to do with me personally. But like, I think I just one of my regrets is not having been more willing to do that.

Sooner, because I think I let fear kind of have a little bit more control there than it needed to. So that's the honest version.

Speaker: Yeah, no, thanks for the honest version. That's what I love to hear. And yeah, man, the fear held me back so long and so much in my relationships and gosh, I held off from dating for a while because I was just really afraid, if I'm honest.

Maybe I would have said it was something different, but I was just like, I felt kind of clueless and incompetent when it came to love [00:42:00] relationships, dating, like I thought in marriage, you know, I thought like other people knew what they were doing and I just. Did not. And it just brought a lot of anxiety into my life, a lot of fear.

So anyway, I can really relate. And the whole breakup component too, I think they're harder for people like us. Not to say that breakups don't suck whenever you go through them, but yeah, I I've seen what, what I've seen is like, it can almost feel like a mini divorce. And obviously it's not a breakup is actually a good thing in many ways.

Cause it's like, well, I've decided that I'm not going to spend the rest of my life with this person, but it's really. Painful to go through. And so, yeah, I, I've seen that. I think I know I've even felt that too. It was like, if I were to break up with this person, it's like abandoning them. And I just like have such a strong instinct to me to never abandon anyone because of what I went through.

And that could really, that could cause some damage, especially if it's a relationship or a time in your life when, you know, it's not going to work out like you described. So I think, yeah, there's a lot to navigate there when it comes to relationships and breakups.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And again, you know, that's not something that you realize in the moment because in [00:43:00] the moment, it's like, I know this isn't a divorce.

I know this is just a breakup, but I think your body feels like it's a divorce. And it's like, no, but last time it wasn't my fault, but this time it is my fault. And I think that's the subconscious thing. And that's why, you know, it can be so powerful. And so, yeah, I just don't think I was even aware of all that.

But then ironically, recently, uh, Me and that girlfriend connected a couple years ago, just caught up randomly on the phone, just totally platonic, just as friends. And, uh, I was just like, Oh, she's fine. I'm fine. Like, you know, I'm not a bad person. And I was like, I realized in that moment, I was like, I have been carrying this shame for years and I had like no reason to be carrying that, you know?

And so, yeah,

Speaker: No, that's beautiful. I, similar with me, like the girls I dated awesome girls. I'm just didn't work out for some reason, uh, whatever reason. And, uh, now they're doing great. They seem like they're doing great in life and I'm super happy for them. And so anyway, I can totally relate with you. And I think there, there's a lot of peace [00:44:00] that can come from that.

Cause we, yeah, I think it is natural when you love someone to feel a level of responsibility toward them. Like you, you want the best for them. And that's a good thing. And I don't think like, just because you break up with them, it's like automatically stopping as if you can cut out a part of your heart and never feel anything like, like you care deeply for them.

And so you, you want the best for them. So I totally can see the different layers to what you're saying there. So thanks for sharing all that. And, uh, I'm sure there's so much more we could say on the relationship topic. I did want to shift over to, when it comes to healing, you already mentioned a ton of things that have helped you heal.

I'm curious if there's anything else maybe that we haven't talked about so far that was really instrumental in helping you to, to heal and to cope with everything.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think just to, to get really practical, um, to kind of like the up to date. So when I was kind of winding down therapy and was still, you know, feeling depressed and just kind of having some of those thoughts, I think one thing that I decided to do is just to kind of get back To some habits that I had that, you know, really helped me feel good at a different point in my life.

And so for me, [00:45:00] and again, this is not for everybody, but just what I decided to do for a three month time period was like, all right, I'm going to cut out coffee. I'm going to cut out drinking and kind of, I started running again, which was something that I had done very frequently in high school. Cause you know, I did soccer and track, but after that it was just always very sporadic.

And then, you know, actually ended up training for a longer race that I ran with my brother. And I think just having that was, you know, something good because I really think when it comes to the healing thing, like I think physical movement and exercise has so much more to offer us than we're even aware of.

And, you know, that was just so beneficial for me. So to anybody who is feeling stuck, like. You know, if that is within your power to take a 10 minute walk or a 15 minute walk, just start there. You know, like even when I was working a job that was crazy hours, that was super difficult, like way over the top, I would make time to just do pushups once a day with all my buddies in the office.

And like, you know, little things like that can make [00:46:00] a big difference. So that's something practical. That's kind of just like more recent in my life. Yeah, I'm just thinking other healing. Can I jump

Speaker: in there for a second? I was just thinking how useful that tip you just said is, and just wanted to add my take on it.

So often for me, when I was going through like really tough, broken parts of my life, and I was really struggling, I often found that I would just like get stuck in my head. I know, or I would like hyper focus on my emotions. And like you just described, it was just really freeing to kind of get out of my mind and like into my body.

And so, like you said, like working out doing, you know, just enjoying like a beautiful sunset, going on a walk, swimming, like whatever form that took, just some sort of like movement and kind of some sort of sensory experience, healthy sensory experience, like. Yeah, that was healing. That was helpful. It helped calm me down, especially if I was anxious or gave me a little bit of life if I was like down and depressed.

So yeah, all of that I think is super, super useful and very practical for someone who maybe is in the midst of it right now.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And then a different avenue that's been, I think, just really beautiful for me [00:47:00] personally. I know that not everybody has more of an artistic bend, but for me, like, I'm not a great painter, but like what does come naturally To me is writing.

So I really just enjoy writing, you know, just about my feelings. And that's something that I was encouraged to do kind of starting in high school, but just, you know, writing journaling has been really, really powerful for me. And then I think just kind of the acts of little beautiful things. So I'm a drummer and I can't actually like write songs because I don't understand melody, but I've learned enough to be able to, you know, write these little attempts at songs.

And. It's just so joy filling and life bringing for me to be able to take this thing that I feel and, you know, communicate it and put it into these melody and these lyrics. And then to be able to, you know, hopefully one day share that with other people. And again, like full transparency, this is not on Spotify.

I am not good at this. This is just something that I do purely because I love it. And so, you know, whatever your thing is Don't assume that you have to be a master at any [00:48:00] artistic endeavor for it to have value in your life. Like art just has this beautiful healing capacity that's available to all people.

You know, everybody has a voice. Everybody can sing, even if it's out of tune, you know, most people, I shouldn't say that caveat most people, but you know, like we all have opportunities to just really explore those little artistic creative things. So whatever that is for you, like, I would just encourage you to throw yourself into that.

With the confidence of a little kid just, you know, so excited to try something because it's kind of like the backdoor to healing, you know, in the same way I was talking about how drumming was just super good for me. I think those, there's something really special about art and creativity and just those things that bring us pleasure that there's no expectations tied to, you know, that can just really be a beautiful avenue to kind of take you out of all the negative and just kind of give you this backdoor into.

Yeah, just a positive frame of mind.

Speaker: So good. And it's so interesting what I've learned from like listening to trauma therapists and even interviewing someone here is being artistic accesses the part of your [00:49:00] brain where trauma typically stored. Um, it's like the emotional part of your brain. So you have.

One brain theory, this is just one, is like you divide your brain into two, there's like the logical part, which is more associated with like math, solving problems, you know, logic, things like that. Then there's the emotional side of your brain, which is more associated with, yeah, just being artistic, like kind of feeling feelings and then, you know, responding in like emergency situations.

It's not as much thoughtful, so to say, but just more reactive. And when we do When we're artistic, it actually accesses that part of our brain. And what can often happen with trauma is that when we go through something traumatic, that emotional part of our brain takes over because we get in this like fight or flight mode.

And so that part of the brain actually like commandeers everything else. And so it can be really difficult, like you described earlier in your story, can be really difficult to put into words those experiences that we've been through, the struggles that we're having because they're so deeply like ingrained in that emotional side of the brain.

And so one of the ways that therapists like activate that or access that is through art. And so, [00:50:00] like you said, super, super helpful in healing. And you don't necessarily need a therapist to like do art, but they use it in their therapy to, to help kind of bring healing. And so one thing too, about that, that I've learned, I mentioned this in other episodes, but.

Um, that emotional side of your brain doesn't have a sense of time. And so, like we were saying before, if you haven't kind of brought closure to some trauma from your past, some really difficult experience that you had that really left an impact on you and you weren't able to really cope with well, then yeah, it can like still be affecting you to this day to where you can be walking around like you're.

You know, 25, 30 year old man, but if it's triggered in the right way, you can then act like a 10 year old. And, and this happens a lot, right? And so one of the ways to, to heal that is to, you know, kind of access that part of your brain and be able to tell, you know, that younger you, Hey, this is over. It's in the past.

We're like a better, stronger person now to handle it. Like that was a really difficult thing to go through. Not. Minimizing it at all. But now we can like move on with our life. It's not, doesn't need to control us. So anyway, [00:51:00] not to go on that too much of a tangent there, but I thought it's really powerful.

And I think just validates the whole thing of like, yeah, art is a good thing. And whatever form that takes for you, I think it can be really, really healing.

Speaker 2: And I think one last thing that I would be remiss if I didn't share, um, I remember after I'd had that sixth grade moment, I was going on like this kind of church retreat and, you know, I just always felt like at school, you know, I was made fun of or put down and just, you know, kids in the neighborhood, like whatever it just, there was never really a space where I knew that I could fully be myself and just be accepted.

And for me, I found that space for the first time at the youth group at our church. And I just remember, you know, Feeling love for who I was and that, you know, I could really be accepted as I am. And again, you know, I know that there's many people from many different faith and belief backgrounds. Um, and so, you know, whatever that looks like for you, I just truly, I think that's the thing that's made the biggest difference for me was just having, you know, a couple older adults outside my immediate family, really believe in me and [00:52:00] pour into me and really having a community of people, just a safe space where I could just belong.

And just be totally weird and totally, you know, goofy and just be accepted and be celebrated for that. And so I just realized I was like, wow I've spent this whole time talking about everything else except, you know Probably the thing that has had the biggest impact And you know that could be hard to find like especially if you're kind of out of the school college environment Like that's difficult to find but man it is worth fighting for and it is worth Putting yourself out there to find those spaces because, you know, at the end of the day, we're social beings, social creatures that are sometimes rational.

You know, we're not rational creatures that are sometimes social. So yeah, we really do need other people. And, uh, I hope that if you don't have people like that, that you can find them. And, you know, I'm certainly, I think there's A lot of people who would want to connect with you like that

Speaker: really good stuff.

I love how practical all of your advice has been. You've done this throughout the conversation, but if you would kind of quickly summarize, how's your life different now? Like you've gone through [00:53:00] this healing process, this transformation, obviously we're always still a work in progress. It's not something that's necessarily one and done.

And like you said before, healing isn't linear. It kind of, you know, jumps around. It's personal. It's the way we talk about it. So I'm just curious. Yeah. Contrast, um, for us quickly, how life is now to compared to how it was.

Speaker 2: Man, you get me excited, Joey. This is good stuff, man. So, I mean, honestly, you know, like full transparency, I was crying in my car yesterday, like the ups and the downs are still there, but man, I.

Genuinely for all the struggle and all the pain and the deep grief that I feel like I've walked through, I feel like through strength outside of my own, that I have really come to experience a hope that is deep and that's lasting. And I really, you know, believe that God wants that for everybody and that that's available to everybody.

And I just, you know, whether you believe in that or not, like God loves you, he does have a plan for your life. He's always been there for you. He always will be there for you. And [00:54:00] I just really, you know, if you are, if you don't believe that right now for yourself, just know that I'm believing that for you.

And yeah, man, like it's funny because if 27 year old me sat down with. Eight year old me, 10, 15, 20 year old me and said, there's hope I might laugh in his face and try to fight him, you know, but truly just in the most compassionate way I can say it, dude, there is hope in your darkest night. There is hope in the midst and the thickness of the struggle.

You know, you might not be able to see that, but I promise you that there is a morning. The morning does come. And I just want you to hold on to that, man. Like whoever's listening to this, like, just get some fire in your chest and just like, know that, you know, it's not all ever going to be okay, but like, it's meaningful and there is purpose.

And so I just hope that you feel empowered that no matter who you are, no matter where you've come from, no matter what your circumstances are, like there is a plan for your life and it is meaningful and it is purposeful. You're loved. And you're valuable and you're needed so

Speaker: [00:55:00] good, man. Thank you for all that.

And if someone wanted to get in touch with you or maybe even check out some of your music, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So I haven't, uh, released any of my music, but I'm happy to like, share with you my little garage band demos, which is just me and an acoustic guitar, like do it a little bit.

But yeah, I'm definitely happy to like reach out to people via email. Um, you know, we can just connect there and then, uh, can go from there. And I think, uh, you'll have that available for people too.

Speaker: Yeah. Thank you. We'll throw that in the show notes and no, I'm excited to, uh, once. Yeah. You know, whenever. You do put stuff on Spotify.

We'll be ready to listen. So it was awesome. Thank you so much. And man, what you just said was like kind of the last word, but I just want to throw it back to you maybe one more time and just see if there's any final pieces of encouragement or advice that you would give to the younger, you listening right now, like to close this out, what would you say?

And again, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2: Yeah, man, thank you so much for having me. It's a, it's an absolute joy just to be able to [00:56:00] share, you know, The real depths of the hardness to be able to share the real, the real heights of the hope what I would say to my younger self. Oh, man, that's a deep one. Um, I feel like for, for me personally, you know, it's hard not to give a faith based answer for this one.

Um, so I think for me, it would just be that. God's promises are true. And I think at the end of the day, it's hard to believe sometimes that he is always there for us and that he loves us and he has a plan, but enduringly through the worst, the best, and the most like crazy moments of my life, I have really witnessed those to be true.

And I'm grateful that I get to testify of that today.

Speaker: If you'd like to share your story with us like Ethan did, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three simple steps. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story. Reflecting on your story and sharing your story with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level.

It makes your brain healthier, according to [00:57:00] neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives, they're healthier, they're happier, they're less depressed. less anxious, uh, and so on. And finally, it can just be super helpful for someone to read your story.

Who's maybe a few steps behind you, they're going through things that you went through. They can get a lot of encouragement and advice by reading. Your story. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored. Ministry dot com slash story on that page. You'll Tell your story, uh, following the forms, just a short version of your story.

And then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. Again, you can share your story now at restored ministry. com slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal [00:58:00] from the trauma you've endured and build virtue, too. So you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone, you know, you can go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents, divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them honestly. Feel free to take 30 seconds now to just text them and just say, Hey, I heard this episode thought of you, thought it might be helpful.

I promise you as someone who comes from a broken family, if someone would have done that to me, it would have been super, super helpful. In closing, always remember you're not alone. We're to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending. [00:59:00]

#123: What I Wish Never Happened, I Am The Most Grateful For | Jack Beers

Pending! Stay tuned.

At a young age, Jack learned he had an incurable disease. That naturally brought lots of physical and emotional pain into his life. But through that suffering, the lessons he learned and the transformation he experienced led him to say, “The thing I wish most never happened, I am most grateful for.” 

In this episode, we discuss what led to that transformation and more:

• The bitterness and loneliness he felt and how his life looks now

• Our tendency to “replay” the trauma we’ve endured and what to do if you feel stuck

• Why we need mentors in our lives to guide and challenge us, but also to help us see our blindspots

JackBeers.com

TheCatholicMentor.com

Schedule a FREE call with Jack

View Restored’s Resources

DakotaLaneFitness.com

Book: “Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing” - Jay Stringer

Links & Resources

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: [00:00:00] At a young age, Jack was diagnosed with an incurable disease, and as you can imagine, it brought a lot of physical and emotional pain into his life. But, uh, through that suffering, through that experience, the lessons he learned, and the transformation that he experienced, led him to say this. The thing I wish most never happened, I am most grateful.

Four in this episode, we dive into that, but especially we talk about like what led up to that transformation and so much more like the bitterness and the loneliness that he felt going through all of that, uh, in the moment that transformed his disease from a description to a dare. Uh, we also hit on the lessons that he learned from his pain and how his life looks different.

Now, uh, he answers the question, how do we actually transform some, how do we transform in a way that actually lasts, that actually changes us into a better version of ourselves. We talked about our tendency to. We're going to re play the trauma that we've endured and what to do if you feel stuck. And finally, why we need mentors in our lives to guide us, to challenge us, but also to kind of point out our [00:01:00] blind spots.

So, if you or someone you know has struggled navigating, you know, pain and suffering in your life, You're not going to want to miss this episode. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation, or broken marriage. So you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 123.

We're so happy that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard numerous stories of people who've just been really helped by the podcast. One listener said this, I'm so thankful for finding this community. Your podcast couldn't have come at a better time. I literally found it only days after your first episode and it was so therapeutic and helpful.

It feels so good and sad, of course, to know that the feelings you have growing up in such an [00:02:00] environment are something others also can relate to. Earlier, I have been made to believe that my feelings are over the top and have been told, especially by my mom, that all people have problems and that the world still has to go on.

Now, I know that it is allowed to have unfinished emotions and that you can't just brush problems under a rug. I'd like that you encourage us to take steps to try to heal and deal with the wrongs from our past. Thank you for that. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out or eating healthier, perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans. It just didn't work for you. Then this is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds [00:03:00] Customize fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment. But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I want to mention three things.

One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped. Dude, he's also a good virtuous man, too. He's not just, you know, obsessed with the way that he looks. Uh, second thing is he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And through that experience and studying at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest of your, yourself, like your body.

Uh, we really need to care for it all so that we can become more virtuous and more free. Uh, to love. And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people, you know, look good on the beach or something like that. His mission is to really lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

And so if you desire freedom, if you desire [00:04:00] transforming your body and your life, Dakota can help you. One client said this Dakota lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing transformations that his clients have achieved, just go to dakotalanefitness. com, dakotalanefitness. com, or just click on the link in the show notes. Uh, by the way, this is the last time that you'll hear about Dakota Lane Fitness.

So if you're on the fence, you know, maybe you've heard this before and like, man, I would like to check that out. I recommend just doing three really simple things. A one, just go to his website, click on the show notes, go to dakotalanefitness. com, just, just go to the website. Once you're on there, he has a transformations page at this recording as his transformation.

And you'll see kind of a mix of before and after pictures as well as testimonials from, from his clients just to see how Dakota has helped other [00:05:00] people. And then finally, if you want to take another step in that direction, you can schedule a free console. Just click on the, the contact button on his website and you can fill out a form to just schedule a free consult with him and you can just get a little bit more information about what it might look like, the pricing and everything, uh, of working with Dakota.

And again, You have nothing to lose, uh, just a little bit of time and effort, but, um, I'm sure it will, I'm sure it will help you. And so I definitely recommend checking him out again, go ahead and click on the link in the show notes or go to Dakota lane fitness. com, uh, to make use of all that. My guest today is Jack Beers.

Jack is the founder and leader of the Catholic Mentor. On top of over a decade in ministry as a speaker and leader, Jack is a certified mentor through the Catholic Psych Institute. He is trained to accompany individuals Through the storms of life by an integration, sound, uh, psychology and authentic Catholic anthropology.

It's kind of big words, but we'll break into those in this episode. Um, the certification was developed and led by Dr. Gregory Bataro. Uh, Jack lives in [00:06:00] Cincinnati with his wife and their two children. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Jack. Jack, so good to have you. Welcome.

Jack: Great to be here with you, Joey.

Thanks for having me.

Joey: Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you. Um, I have to ask kind of the obvious question, given your last name, do you like beer? Do you drink beer?

Jack: Yeah. So I usually, when people ask me, oh, your name is Jack Beers, you know, like, uh, that's awesome. What a great name. I'll usually be like, you know, my middle name is Daniels.

With an S, you know, I'm very Irish, you know, I have Irish parents, you know, it's not, you know, but if people get really pumped by it, I mean, I literally have a memory of being 10 and having being in a baseball field and having high schoolers come to you be like, wow, one day you're going to have some great parties, man.

Could be awesome. And, uh, and I'm an irony. I can't drink beer. So I, it's just a walking irony. Look at people. I want to drink beer with this guy. Well, like, I can't if you want to [00:07:00] Jameson on the rocks, you know, we could do that together, but you know, I'm not, I'm not going to fulfill your lifelong fantasy of, of watching someone with the last name of beers, you know, drain a beer or whatever.

Joey: I love the Jack Daniels joke. That's what's legend good stuff, man. Well, yeah,

Jack: yeah.

Joey: Shift into more serious items. I, um, I know, you know, a lot of people listening right now have endured a lot of pain, a lot of suffering because of their parents divorce, the breakdown of their family and everything that comes along with that.

And so while that might not be specifically part of your story, I know you have suffered. How's about that?

Jack: That's quite the transition. Um, yeah, I, I'm so grateful to be able to go deep here with you. Um, suffering has been a huge part of my life and it's been, uh, I think Tolkien said this. He's like the thing for which I wish most never happened.

I am most grateful for. He said and I, I very much come to a place of that. Where the things that I wish most never happened to me are the things in which [00:08:00] I'm most grateful for at the same time. And it took a long time to get there. It took a lot of work to get there. But I, I do like to frame the idea of suffering.

Like, I know that people have suffered more than me. And I know that the suffering that, that I have is, um, you know, relatively speaking is what it is. But, but it is still real. And it is still. Difficult and challenging. Anyway, so to the details of it, uh, when I was 11, I've always been like this. I've always been like tall and lanky and like a strong breeze could blow me over.

So I've never been, you know, I've never been necessarily robust physically. And when I was 11, I lost 15 pounds in 10 days. And I had a shortcut, and, you know, I looked like I was dying. I looked like I was a cancer patient. You could see my ribs and all this stuff. And it turned out that I had something called Crohn's disease, which is a, which is a chronic illness.

And, and this is like 2001. There's no [00:09:00] gluten free anything anywhere that's not like celiac. It's just known by people. It's like no one in my circle had ever heard of Crohn's disease, unless they're part of the medical community. And so we, my parents and I, like, we had. I have no idea what's happening.

It's like you lose, you know, 15 pounds in 10 days. And now you have this thing, it's called Crohn. And I remember I was, I'm 11, I have a fever and Crohn's can manifest itself in all different kinds of ways. And, and for me, I had like an exterior abscess and I, and I, so like it was painful, like I couldn't walk from 15 feet from my room to the bathroom.

I couldn't physically do it. It would just, it was too painful. So. For me to do just like hurt too much, uh, to move. So I'm like sitting in this doctor's office, I'm 11 and I have a fever. It's like one Oh two, one Oh three. And it's just constant. Like I can't move. I'm in a lot of pain. I just found out I have Crohn's disease.

And this doctor's like, okay, you're in a great spot. You know, I'm the best [00:10:00] doctor in the East coast for this. I have access to the best medication in the world. And I can get you down to three hospital stays a year, every year for the rest of your life. And my parents were just like, what? Yeah. Three hospital stays a year every year for the rest of his life.

Like, what is, what does that mean? What is his life going to look like? And this doctor straight up just went, you're going to have, you're not going to be taller than five foot two. You're not going to be able to hold down a job. You won't be able to go away to college. Like you, you need to understand something.

Like your son is now disabled. That's what it is. And I was like, I mean, I'm 11, but you're, even at 11, right? Like, you're conscious of what's happening. I'm aware of what this guy is saying. And I remember my mom looking at me and being like, that will not be your life. Like, whatever that man said, like, throw it out of your mind.

Like, that will not be your life. But I You know, I kind of believe the doctors, more of a, I believe my mom there. And so through the first four years of me having Crohn's disease, I missed over 250 days of school. I barely grew. I mean, [00:11:00] everything but the number of hospital stays was kind of coming through, coming to fruition from, from what the doctor shared over the course of the first four years.

And it was, yeah, it was awful. It was awful.

Joey: No, I can't imagine just being in your shoes and, you know, up to that point, it sounded like life was more or less normal. You know, you were, Growing and yeah, just things in life kind of looked like you'd expect for someone at that age. And then all of a sudden it just completely turns on its head, like how difficult.

And one of the questions just in preparing for this interview that I was thinking through, it's like the lessons that were, you know, kind of baked into that experience. And so I'd love to tend to tease that out because I really am a firm believer that like you said, with the token quote, there's All these like really difficult, painful things we go through in life, but my goodness, it can like warm us.

It can transform us. It can like teach us so, so much. So yeah, what lessons did you learn through this whole experience?

Jack: Yeah, well, you know, I'd probably go on for a long time on this one, but yeah, so I, like I said, the first four years were really, you know, they were brutal. I remember watching the Red [00:12:00] Sox come back and beat the Yankees and I'm a huge New York Mets fan, so I was happily rooting for that.

And just. It was when that happened, when Big Poppy was, you know, breaking his bat and hitting a base hit over second to win the game in extras, or hitting his home run to win the game in extras, or Johnny Damon's hitting a grand slam to just, Absolutely wrecked the Yanks in game seven. Like that was, that was probably the peak worst period for me.

Like I was watching that semi and I mean, it was, and by worse, I mean, like pain wise, like I was literally, it felt like my body was on fire. Like I could remember watching that game and just. Being on fire. And so I really feel like there were three levels of pain for me over the course of those first four years and the first two I was really cognizant of because they were obvious.

The first one was the physical pain, right? Like it just You're just suffering like I'm just sitting there suffering like can't play baseball. I'm extracted from social life It's just [00:13:00] physically difficult to get around and be around and move. So there's the physical pain The next one is is the emotional pain and the emotional suffering.

So when I first got sick, I got all this attention Letters and notes and gifts and presents and everything along those lines and then pretty much out of sight out of mind Everybody else abandoned me. It was sort of isolated I had my parents and I had my twin sister who and my grandmother who really cared everybody else aunts and uncles other Grandparents people I thought were friends It's like I didn't exist and I sort of been wiped off the face of the planet and it was very lonely You And I got bitter as all getup.

I was, um, I don't know if you've ever seen It's a Wonderful Life, but there's this, uh, there's this famous moment where sort of the evil character is like, you once called me a warped, frustrated old man. What are you but a warped, frustrated young man? And that's, that was me. I'm like 14 [00:14:00] years old, warped, frustrated.

Bitter, resentful of being abandoned, resentful of having to suffer, resentful of, you know, just very frustrated and angry over, you know, in being imprisoned by this physical limitation. But the thing was, is like, I didn't, I didn't necessarily have to be. My parents had found a different doctor and this really intense food regimen.

It's called a specific carbohydrate diet and we found a way for it to work for me, but it was like I could have like 12 items of food that includes like spices. Wow. So, I mean, I counted once it was like 12 or 17. I don't remember what one. So, like, I would go when I go to school, right? And it would be like, you know, you're in 6th grade and it's an ice cream party, like looking at kids eating a Sunday and I'm eating an overly ripe banana.

You know, it's like. Yeah. That sucks. You know, you go to the Super Bowl party and everybody's eating pizza and I'm eating dry, lightly salted chicken and lettuce with no salad dressing. You know, it's like, that sucks. [00:15:00] But it had the potential to work. Like, we'd seen flashes and it worked, uh, at different, at different periods.

I would go through two or three months where I would be super healthy. And then, and then it would be back down. Anyway, so there was, I, I had this physical pain and this emotional pain and this emotional bitterness, but I also had this tool, this, this food regimen that was at my disposal that could help me get healthy.

And when I was 14, I was sitting in my room and my mom came into my room and she had two presents for me. And at that time, I was, it was shortly after the Red Sox had won the World Series and I had to be homeschooled the whole year because it physically, it was, it was that bad. And so I was, I was pretty down, pretty emotionally frustrated and all that stuff.

And my mom, she just comes into my room and she's got two gifts for me. And the first gift is a, a wall sized poster of Muhammad Ali. And at that time, Adidas was running this ad campaign that said impossible is nothing. And so it was Muhammad Ali standing over Sonny [00:16:00] Liston, yelling at him to get up and fight him like a real man, about to become heavyweight champion of the world.

And then on the bottom, it says impossible is nothing. And my mom, she just absolutely calls me out. And, and she's like, I've been trying to will you to health. I've been trying to will you to put your mind and your heart and your everything into getting healthy, but you're sitting on the sidelines, you're not engaged, you're going through the motions, and the truth is, you can take incurable as a declaration, or you could take it as a dare, a dare to rise to the occasion of your life.

So she shows me the poster, and she's like, Muhammad Ali said, impossible is just a made up word. Impossible is nothing. Impossible is a dare. And she, so she goes through this whole quote of, of Muhammad Ali. She's like, apply that to incurable. Incurable is just a word. It's nothing. It's a dare. It's not a declaration.

It's a dare. And it's life daring you to rise to the occasion of it, to grow from it, to embrace it. So she hands me the second gift [00:17:00] and it's, um, it's a dog tag. And on the dog tag, it says, Incurable is not a declaration. It's a dare. And, and she's like, I'll continue to do everything I can to help you get healthy, but you never will until you, until you get in the game.

So get in the game and, uh, yeah, so she absolutely called me out and one of the most inspiring moments of my entire life and I decided to, to take her up on it. I decided to take to the dare. I decided to, um, as, uh, Robert Downey jr would say, uh, hug the cactus. I decided to confront the inner self and turn toward the inner storm, and nothing changed about my exterior life, man.

Like, nothing changed. The diet didn't change. My school didn't change. My family didn't change. Nothing about my external life changed. Nothing about my external environment changed. First four years, I missed 250 days of school. The next eight years through college, um, I missed less than 10. I grew to [00:18:00] be six feet tall.

I went away to school. I was, for all intents and purposes, you couldn't tell that I had a chronic illness and what made the difference was doing the inner work and the original question is a really long answer to it. But the original question is like, what's one of the life lessons that you learned? And so I just, I go to the, I go to the biggest one, which is you got to confront the dragon within.

All the crap that was happening inside of me, that I was bottling up, that I was pushing down, that I was ignoring, that I refused to confront, the anger, the bitterness, the frustration, the the sense that this was unfair, I have three sister I have two sisters, like, why did I get it? One of them's a twin, why did I get it?

Everybody else gets to live a normal life, why do I have to sit over here and eat this disgusting food and in order to just be normal and then confront a lot of the bitterness and the pain of other people and being abandoned and not walking around so angry all of the time at everyone. That was the lesson.

Like I got to turn toward the storm. I can't [00:19:00] run away from it. I have to turn toward it. I have to embrace it more than anything.

Joey: Wow. What a story. I so much. I want to say one of the things that you just brought to mind was this whole battle with ourselves, right? I think that so often I know in my life, it's myself has been like the scariest person to face.

And, and it's just fascinating. So I love your insight on that. Like, why is that such a scary thing? Why do, and why do we avoid it so much? Like, why do we run in the opposite direction? It seems like we'd almost, you know, be more willing to face like these Insurmountable like enemies on the outside than just look interiorly and face ourselves.

Jack: It's a great question. I think one of one of the reasons is that every spiritual master, every master of the inner life has essentially said, if you want to dive deep and look at yourself, you have to do it. with someone else. Like, you cannot do it alone. It's not like a David and Goliath situation where you're out, and you're looking at this big Goliath, and you're like, okay, well, [00:20:00] what weapons do I have?

You know, like, I'll just, I'll just fight, or I'll learn, I'll be trained how to fight, and then I'll just, like, go fight. Like, the inner world, because of the natural inclination of the emotional life and the inner life to protect ourselves and to deceive ourselves, it can be so hard to unravel. And really understand it, and you actually need someone else to reflect you back to you, to really be able to understand you.

So part of it is just practical, like, you can't really do it alone. And, and none of the, the masters of the inner world, and we could be talking about Buddha, we could be talking about St. Francis de Sales, we could be talking about modern mindfulness practitioners, you know, like, Everybody talks about having a guide to help you enter into the inner life, make sense of what's going on.

One of the things that that has really become true and, and that we've developed a deeper understanding about from a psychological perspective is that, is that we're, we're made up [00:21:00] of a bunch of inner parts and multiple personality disorder is a disorder of something that is actually natural and good within us, which is when something happens, like we win the lottery.

Multiple parts of us react to the same thing. One of the simplest examples of it, it would be like, not the lottery, but like, if you're gonna go play a game, and part of you is excited, but part of you is nervous, right, like you feel both emotions at the same time. It's because there's literally a part of you that feels the nerves, and a part of you that is excited.

Like, I love baseball, I would always be nervous, because I was afraid, there's a part of me that was always afraid of failing. And then I would also be really excited because there's a part of me that loves baseball, that loves to play the game, right? So you go to get married, and there's a part of you that loves your spouse.

But there's another part of you that has, comes from a broken home, and it's that arrested development part. It's that 10 year old sitting in your parents living room, like, hearing that your parents are getting divorced. That is [00:22:00] also reacting to this idea of getting married. That's like marriage is a sham.

You know, you're only going to hurt people. It's not real. Like that part of you is until that part of you is healed. Like you can't, you can't contain that part of you from reacting and for you to make sense of all of those different parts and how they interact with one another is not something for someone to do by themself.

Like you need to be able to do it with with the help of somebody else.

Joey: So good. One of the principles that we operate on is that healing happens in relationships.

Jack: Yeah.

Joey: Healing happens in, in relationship and it's exactly for the reason you said. And yeah, no, so good. And I think the other thing that comes to mind when you say all that is the idea of blind spots.

I think you articulated that really well that there's literally things that you can't see or access or, you know, Work through on your own and there's different, you know, parts of this, like, since we're using the sports analogy, it's like, you know, I was a baseball player as well through the years and play with some incredible guys.

I was never like at the D one level, but I play with guys who [00:23:00] D one got drafted, all that stuff. And, uh, you know, whether it was them or me, someone, you know, not as skilled, there were certain parts of my swing or, you know, feeling or whatever that maybe I was doing wrong that I couldn't. Yeah. See or know until a coach came up to me and said, Hey, the way you're fielding that ball, like try this, you know, try picking it or funneling it this way, try, you know, the way you're swinging, like loosen your hands a little bit more, drop your elbow, all of that.

And I went through coaching like that and it's amazing, like the transformation you could see, but I could have, honestly, Jack, I could have spent like a year trying to like critique my own swing and I probably would have missed a lot of that.

Jack: Yeah. So I

Joey: think it's, it's so profound. Like you have a coach, a guide, um, in your life who's able to kind of point out those blind spots and then give you a bit of a plan to work through that.

Jack: Yes. I, one of the most amazing things is actually, it's not the most masculine thing in the world, but it's art. Art is some of the best. It contains some of some of the best tools to elicit sort of hidden exiles within you. Um, I was working with [00:24:00] with one of my clients and I know we'll talk about what I do at some point, but it's working with one of them.

And really discovered that he was having some trouble in his marriage and that one of his main pain points that he couldn't get past was actually something that happened to him when he was pre verbal, so like he couldn't communicate. So he couldn't share with me what was really happening or what was really driving, um, this behavior that was causing a lot of conflict in his marriage.

And so I, I asked him to draw himself in conflict with his wife. Just draw your image of what's happening. And what he drew unlocked so much of what was happening, because the content almost didn't matter, like, what happened to him didn't matter. What happened was how he felt in that context, and how it keeps getting duplicated over and over and over again in different contexts, right?

He keeps having the same emotional reaction regardless of the content, because there's a part of him that keeps emerging. So he could never [00:25:00] see that part, understand that part, speak to that part. Until I was sort of able to help draw that out of him through the art of drawing, which is an amazing thing, but you know, you're never going to think of that on your own, right?

You're never going to come to that on your own. It's like, how am I going to break this pattern in my life? How am I going to trust people again? How am I going to do, how can I possibly believe that love is worth it or that setting myself up to be hurt again is worth it? It's like, well, you have to talk to that part of you that thinks it's not worth it and you have to understand it.

And and understand the role it's playing in your life and know that that part of you is good. It just doesn't want you to get hurt. It's not helping you right now, but it's still good. It doesn't. It desires your good. So how do we how do we engage with that part of you and understand it? And it's you cannot do that alone.

Joey: You can't. No, it's so good. And I love men. What a great example on how helpful. Sit to that, you know, client of yours, my goodness. I'm sure you know this, but that's like what therapists will do. I know you're not a therapist and you weren't trying to give [00:26:00] therapy, but that's what therapists will do in trauma therapy.

I've been through it myself. And like the use of art therapy is so important because my understanding of it, one theory of like the brain is that we have One side of our brain is more emotional, and the other side of our brain is more logical. And the logical side of our brain is the part of our brain that controls language, and, you know, math, and things like that.

The emotional side of our brain is more controlling, you know, reaction, and like, if we're in danger, then it will, you know, kind of take control. And literally, when you go through something traumatic, The logical part of your brain actually constricts, it chemically constricts, it gets smaller, the emotional side gets bigger so that you can react and save your life, right?

Think of, you know, extreme examples of a tiger chasing you or other examples, like, you know, we're talking about your parents getting divorced. And so. So the pre verbal thing that happened with that client is so interesting to me because that is similar even with people who are post verbal, who can, you know, speak and things, they might not even be able to articulate what they had been through because the place where the trauma is encoded is in that emotional side of their brain.

And so the [00:27:00] art therapy side of it can help people go beyond the language. And one other thing that I think is just so fascinating that I loved learning, I want to share with everyone listening is. Um, there's a part of our brain, I think it's called Broca's area, if I'm getting that right. And, uh, and that part of our brain, um, does play a role in like controlling language, helping us put things to words.

And that part of our brain will actually go offline when we've endured a trauma, or maybe more contextual to that sort of trauma when things are triggered. Um, which is so fascinating. So no, I just love, I couldn't help but share that because I think it's so helpful. And especially if people are, you know, experiencing this right now, maybe they've been through some traumatic, their family falling apart, their parents getting divorced, whatever.

And, you know, they are like struggling to like put it into words. It's like, well, there you go. There's some of the science of it. Maybe not perfectly articulated, but, um, it's certainly, certainly helpful.

Jack: Yeah, and and the other thing is because you can't this is one of the things that I learned about myself as well It's like because you can't articulate it because you're not exactly sure what's happening You will actually try and replay [00:28:00] your trauma in other Contexts across time in an attempt to try and win right like our brain categorizes it as a loss Something happened and we got hurt And we want to replay the circumstances again across time and across other relationships so that we can win and avoid that hurt.

So like for me, right, like I, I get sick and I perceive people all over the place as abandoning me. So in my mind, I'm not conscious of this, but in my mind, like when you get close to people who don't have to love you, like mom and dad, like they will burn you. So, what did I start doing? I started burning those relationships before they had a chance to burn me.

So, it keeps happening over and over again, where relationships end prematurely, or I make sure I'm the one who breaks up with the girl, whether or not I have a good reason. Um, it's like, what's happening there? Why is that pattern repeating itself? Well, it's because I don't want to have the same thing happen again.

[00:29:00] I don't want to get so vulnerable to the, I don't want to go vulnerable past the point of knowing that I'm going to get hurt to a similar degree as this other circumstance, so I'm going to cut this relationship off, so that doesn't happen, so I don't have to trust you, so I don't have to be vulnerable with you, so I don't have to be in a relationship with you, and so I just had really superficial relationships for a really long period of time, and it was, And it was specifically because I was replaying that trauma.

I'm going to end this before you have a chance to end it with me. So good.

Joey: I love that language that you put to that, like how we're replaying the trauma. I've heard people talk about it in other ways, but that, like, for some reason really sticks well with me, how we're attempting to turn a loss into a win.

Super good. I think the other side of that coin too, that people have heard, maybe I'll talk about in the show is this idea of like repetition compulsion, how we might end up repeating behavior that harmed us or we despise. Yes. And it was just so, so interesting, fascinating and such a big pain point, by the way, Jack, for people like us, [00:30:00] who like me, who come from broken families, because we saw something that was very broken and painful.

And we went through that ourselves with our parents marriage falling apart or whatever dysfunction at home. And we're like terrified of repeating that in our own lives, especially if there were extreme things like infidelity or whatever. Um, and so that that's like a major concern. So this whole idea of repetition, compulsion, and trying to avoid that is just like such a big, Concern, even if it's something that's not like this conscious, it's somewhere, you know, in our subconscious often pulling at us.

So I'm curious to your like insights or advice on that side of the coin of kind of this fear of going down this path that we really don't want to go on.

Jack: Yeah, well, so there's so many different things that could happen. So my dad, my dad's parents got divorced, um, my grandfather was, was unfaithful, and it was just an absolute abject mess of a home, right?

So my dad decided he was gonna be the exact opposite of his dad, right? Like, that was his, that was his reaction, that was his play. And he was gonna go to the, the [00:31:00] extreme other side. So you can do that. Other people don't want to hurt anybody else, so they'll, so they'll isolate, or they'll, Depending on when divorce happens, you know, if it happens in the preteen years, let's say 13, 14, one of the most natural things to do is to sexualize your pain because you have a sexual awakening.

And so you start sexualizing your pain, whether that be creating fantasies or scenarios in which you're in complete control. So like porn is a big, can be a big challenge for people coming out of divorce because One of the, one of the things that porn does for a person is it puts you entirely in control of your whole scenario and of your entire environment and people who come from broken families, it's like, you're not in control of your dad, you're not in control of your mom, you're not in control of where you live, you're not in control of whose house maybe you're going to be in, you're not in control of how you're spoken to, whether dad keeps crapping on mom or mom keeps crapping on dad, like you're not in control of it.

Anything. And so you're looking to have some form of control. So [00:32:00] you turn to something that you can control or, you know, you want to numb, right? So what's one of the biggest things that can happen for people who deal with a lot of pain is that they don't want to feel what they're feeling anymore. So they'll, they'll drink excessively or they'll, or they'll smoke weed and get high.

It's like when things get too difficult, you know, you smoke weed and you can get high or you become a self fulfilling prophecy. Right? You start, you start doing the things that you hate were done to you. And that part is like, this happens all the time with parents. So you become a parent, and all of a sudden you're like, Oh my gosh, that was my dad speaking.

Right? That wasn't me. And they have this realization. They're like, Oh crap, I'm turning into my mom. And it's like, you're not turning into your mom. You're not turning into your dad. It's literally the only context you have for parenthood. Right? So it's like, I want to go into a relationship. Okay, what's your only context for romance?

You have a tendency to then duplicate that over time, [00:33:00] because it's like, I don't know what to do. When a woman comes to me, let's say I'm a man, and my parents got divorced, and a woman comes to me, and she's emotionally needy. And I only ever saw my dad say to my mom, like, shut up and get me a beer, or like, Shut up and make dinner and now I have a girlfriend who's crying excessively and it doesn't make any sense to my male Logical emotional brain and my only context is shut up and deal with it and serve me It's like what are you gonna do in that moment?

For a number of people, the response is, I'm going to do some form of what I saw, because I'm just, I'm just reacting. I'm not thinking about it. And so I, I do it, especially, especially if you idolize that parent in particular, and part of the divorce was, was a shattering of the character, of the person who you really loved.

Then it's even more complicated because you're wanting to imitate someone, and there's a part of you that always wanted to imitate this person that [00:34:00] you idealized, and now the idealization is shattered, and you're, you're not sure what to do with that. Anyway, all of that, across all of these contexts, the content almost doesn't matter, and the reaction almost doesn't matter, anywhere near as much as What is the function driving your behavior?

A lot of popular way to look at this is like, what's the story you're telling yourself, you know, is the story you're telling yourself, which is like, my grandfather was a piece of crap. My father is a piece of crap. I'm a piece of crap. And this is what we do. This is what the men in our family do. Well, where does that come from?

Why is a part of you feel that way? Why are you responding like that? Or, I have to drink because I can't confront this pain. Well, why? Because I can't handle it. Okay, well, let's figure out what that came from. Because the drive to drink, the drive to porn, like, those are not, those drives are not bad, right?

Like, it's literally your body trying to help you get through the day. And what needs to happen is healing needs to happen. Freedom needs to [00:35:00] emerge from that healing so that you can then turn to that part of you and it's like I know what you're doing. I know why you're doing it. Thank you. But I don't need you anymore.

I don't need you to do that for me anymore. I can do hard things or I'm going to break the pattern. I'm going to learn how to love. That was, again, a long winded answer, but So good. It's a complex question.

Joey: It is, you know, it's, I mean, we could do a whole episode on it. There's so much you said there. I love the acknowledgement that that behavior served some sort of a purpose.

Not to say it was good behavior, not justifying it, but it's like, Hey, you know, if porn was your way or alcohol or drugs or whatever was your way of dealing with the pain, it served some purpose. And so, but then saying, okay, I want to move beyond that. I no longer need that. I want to outgrow it. Cause I really think that's like, so key to dealing with any sort of pain and problems in our lives is like, we need to just outgrow that pain and that those problems in our lives.

And obviously heal as well. And so, so much good stuff. And I do think that's possible. And I [00:36:00] want to get into like kind of reprogramming. Um, but two other things, I'd love to hear your thoughts before we move on. One is just this whole idea that we are, each of us are living out a story. You know, you said kind of, you know, you know, what story are you essentially telling with your life?

And it's true, like each of us is living out a story. And I think when we think of Any movie or novel we've read, it's like the hero usually starts in some broken way or they're facing some big problem, right? That debilitates them or prevents them from getting what they want. Um, but then they go through a period of transformation and every story I've seen always happens with a form of a guide, like we've already talked about.

So I think there's something to be said there as well. Like what, what story are you living out now? And what story do you want to be living out? And then what's the transformation needs to occur in order for you to do that. And then the final thing on the sexualized pain, I was just going to comment on Jay Stringer has been on this podcast.

He wrote an awesome book called unwanted. I definitely recommend you guys check it out. If this is an area of interest talking about, you know, unwanted sexual behavior and things like that. Uh, he quotes Dr. Patrick Carnes. He's a leading expert on sexual [00:37:00] addiction. He said that 87 percent of people who struggle with the sexual addiction come from a broken family, which is profound.

Um, and so I love that you kind of hit on that point too, because I think this, this audience, people like me are dealing with these sorts of things or have dealt with it in the past. So I'd love to hear your comments and then switch over to how do we reprogram this? How do we transform?

Jack: Yeah, well, porn, addiction, alcohol.

Like, they're extremely destructive. I think the nuance that, that I was, the line that I'm trying to walk is like, the part of you that drove you to those outlets is not bad. Them as outlets is destructive. It's the, it's the whole, it's the old adage of like, hate the sin, love the sinner, right? It's like, hate the porn, love the part of you that wants to protect you.

When I work with clients in particular who are addicted to porn, sometimes you have to do, you know, who, who don't want to be addicted to porn, like, you have to do some temporary measures or some coping mechanisms to, to sort of break the cycle and break the habit. But in the long haul, when you heal the relationship, [00:38:00] the original relationship, the part where the pain emerged from, when you heal that dynamic, the great majority of the drive to porn is gone.

And it's really understanding that not all, but so much. of addiction can be, can be significantly healed if you heal the relationship or if you heal from the experience that really drove you to cope with the pain through this mechanism. So I, I definitely want to add that clarification. Essentially what you were saying was decide who to be and go be it and wanting to, wanting to break the cycle and the story that you tell yourself.

One of the biggest things for, for me personally, And, and one of the aspects of my work and, and as a parent, one of the things that I really strive because it's been so important for me to, to share with my kids is reclaiming what freedom you do have and reclaiming your responsibility for your own life.

I know we have a mutual love for Viktor Frankl, the founder of Logotherapy, and in his book, Man's Search for [00:39:00] Meaning, which is a, which is just top five favorite book of mine of all time, he talks about the last of human freedoms and this idea that regardless of anything else, What can never be taken from a human being is the ability to choose their attitude in a given circumstance.

The exception to that is, like, when you lose your mental faculties. So, so provided you have your mental faculties, you're not struggling from dementia or Alzheimer's or, let's say, multiple personality disorder. But if you're, if you have your mental faculties, there's literally no power on earth Not even God himself has given himself the power to force you to respond in a particular way and to claim that freedom that you do have.

Like people who've gone through significant trauma or significant suffering, it's like the first step is to acknowledge the pain and to acknowledge the storm that you're in or that you've gone through and to acknowledge its impact on you. But the second step, and arguably the most important one, is What are [00:40:00] you going to do about it?

You have the freedom to choose how you respond. Your attitude, your outlook, how you look at it. You know, the first four years of me being sick, like, I had a terrible attitude. Victim, impossibility. Bitterness, resentment, anger, you know, when things turned around, it was an attitude of possibility. Like, what can I control?

One of the great images of this is Jesus hugging his cross. You know, like when I didn't grow up with any particular faith, and I remember the first time I heard the story of Jesus hugging his cross and him willing to The suffering that was imposed upon him. It was like, that, that's it. That's it. That's what I want to do.

Like, that is the most noble thing a person can do, is regardless of their circumstances, regardless of what's being imposed on them, to choose to embrace it. Walk toward the storm and to extract as much meaning as they can from the experience so that they can go turn around and be something and [00:41:00] someone extraordinary for other people, right?

Like the story of Jesus from just a pure human perspective is I'm going to hug this cross. I'm going to brace it with everything that I have so that I can turn around and give abundant life to every other person on the planet, right? It's like, okay, you have the actual ability to transform your suffering.

Into something that blesses every other person that you meet for the rest of your life. Like, no one can decide whether or not that happens but you. And, and claiming that is, I think, that changed my life. And, and I think it changes anyone's life who's going through a particular struggle.

Joey: I think there's, there's such power in kind of looking beyond your own pain.

And there's this idea too, um, of like the helper's high. I, I'm learning about it recently, so I don't know a lot about it. But just how, like, there's research behind the fact that when you Look beyond your own pain and you help other people and the example I was reading was in like the context of like volunteering for some organization.

Let's say there's like literally documentable outcomes, benefits that come from [00:42:00] that. And so it takes this whole idea that like love is healing to like a whole new level because it literally is healing. And so I love that. That's beautiful. And I think that's like the right question to ask. Like, what now?

Like, what am I going to do with this hand? I've been dealt. What am I going to do with it? Because like you said, so many of us have been through you. Pain and trauma, you know, can fall into that victim mentality and just kind of stay stuck there. And what I've seen too in the people that I've walked with, as well as in my own life, is that so often I think our efforts at healing and growth can be become kind of fruitless.

Because of that, maybe hidden underneath the surface, like we're spinning our tires and mud and never really getting anywhere. And so we might be doing good things, like listening to podcasts, reading books, going on retreats, whatever. Because we want that transformation that we're talking about, we want to become that person.

But for some reason that gap is just not being closed as I'm curious, you know, you already mentioned a couple of things that I think are really helpful when it comes to that, but like, how do we actually transform, like what's worked in your life and what [00:43:00] advice do you give in terms of how do you actually transform and become that person that you want to be?

Jack: Yeah, we could do a whole podcast just on this exact question. Uh, yeah. And I'll talk about it from a, from a personal example, and maybe even just some, some work with some clients. Sure. I remember When I tried to start turning things around in my life, I was still in a lot of pain. And it was, you know, it was just, it was rough.

It was still in that rough period. And I remember my mom had a rough day and she, she left the house for whatever reason. She had to go run an errand or something. And I knew that she loved to end her day with tea and she was coming back late. And so I made her a cup of tea without her asking. And it was like, I don't know.

It's like she was four and realizing what Christmas is for the first time, you know, like it was that level of joy and appreciation like to this day, she will talk about that cup of tea that I made her and how and how impactful it was because she knew how much I was suffering that I thought of her, which she never really understood was how impactful that was for [00:44:00] me.

It's like I can do something good for someone else. I don't have to live in this cesspool that is my inner life and my inner thoughts and my own pain. I don't have to steep in this misery every second of every single day. I can actually do something small to bless someone. And so any proper answer on, on types of deep critical questions like the one you just asked has a both and component to it.

So it's like if you're in a rut. And you're feeling like crap and you are just miserable and you can't get out of bed in the morning, like, do something for somebody else, get on your feet, and that's enormously helpful, it's like I'm still a useful human being, you know, like I still have something to offer the world, that's a really useful thing to know, especially when you're in the dark part, then at the same time, Find a guide who is going to walk with you into the depths of the darkness of your own subconscious and your own inner life.

Find someone [00:45:00] who you trust who can help you. And go confront the inner demons. Like go do the inner work and not for you not because you know You're worth it and you're all these things even though you are but so that you can go out and actually bless other people One of the problems with modern therapy is it's like we'll just sit and talk about your feelings and sit in your own inner life And only talk about your inner life and never do anything with it.

It's like the purpose It's to become a self gift. Now, you might be sitting there being like, okay, I want to become a self gift. I want to do the inner work. I don't have anybody that I can go to. It's like, what do I do then? Well, there is something that you can do. If you look at the people who have achieved it.

Greatness in their life and they're all names. You're like, yeah, I've, yeah, I know that they've achieved greatness. Like you go mother Teresa, you go Gandhi, Alexander souls, a niche in like Abraham Lincoln. It's like you, you go to these people and you look at their life. They had a compelling vision of who they were trying to become.

So [00:46:00] let's just look at Gandhi. Gandhi's vision was to become like unto God. I want to become a man who made the invisible God visible. That's what Gandhi was trying to do. It's like, that's my objective. I have a compelling vision for my own personal character and the type of person that I want to be. I want to be God's hand and feet on earth.

That's my goal. That's my objective. And then he coupled to get that together with, I think there are the 11 vows of Gandhi. So I, I call this the moral code of being so it developed a moral code of being for him to be accountable to and for him to look every night and be like, okay, I'm trying to become this person.

These rules are actually capable of bringing out this vision to life. How am I doing on these rules? Right? Like system strive behavior. It's like those 11 vows were there. Gandhi's system that drove the behavior that led to the outcome, you know, if you're a business mind, you know, you're, you're thriving on this, right?

That led to the outcome that you're desiring, right? You start all the way, all the way [00:47:00] at the beginning. Now, you may sit in there and be like, becoming like unto God. That's really lofty. Well, look at someone like Alexander Solzhenitsyn. If you don't know Solzhenitsyn, he is credited with doing the majority of the work of taking down the Soviet Union from within the Soviet Union.

So Solzhenitsyn He was a political prisoner. He spent, I think he spent a decade in the gulags of Soviet Russia, which is hard labor in Siberia. And when he was in the prisons, in the gulag, suffering some of the worst suffering you can conceive of in humanity, it's top three, is the Soviet gulags, which still exists, by the way.

He's in this prison camp, eating this watered down soup and bread and doing hard labor in the frigid temperatures of Siberia. What he realizes is He has to own part of the blame for ending up where he ended up because he participated in the lies that led to communist Russia that allowed a system to be created for people like him to be imprisoned [00:48:00] without due process.

So he made a decision and this is really simple. He's like, I am going to become a man of truth. There will not be a single lie that will ever pass through me ever again. It's like a lack of truth. Created massive amounts of pain for me and everybody I'm in present with. So I'm going to become a man of truth.

So like, let's say you had a really, really mean dad, and the criticism that you feel, and just, the incapacity to do anything because you're just crippled by that constant criticism. It's like, okay, become the kindest person you possibly can. Don't let criticism flow out of your mouth. And then, that's the vision of who you want to be.

It's like, I want to be an incredibly kind person. Or, Jordan Peterson will say this, I want to be the kind of person everybody can rely on at my dad's funeral. Like, okay, that's a really noble vision. What's going to lead me there? And you don't have to pick the ultimate vision, you don't have to pick the ultimate thing.

Like, it's just start walking in the direction of a noble vision of who you could be, [00:49:00] and oftentimes that's enough to elevate your life.

Joey: It's still good. I love all of that. I love the vision component, finding a guide. And I love the idea that you just threw out that the guide doesn't need to be someone who is even alive right now.

If you're not ready for that, I think ultimately it is good to have someone who's mentoring you, is walking with you, who's able to like have real insight into your life. But yeah, we can learn, we can be guided through books, through podcasts, through whatever, um, just like you mentioned. And then, yeah, going back to Frankel, I just love that idea of, you know, Do something for someone else, do something for someone else.

Like, you know, as I know you would say, you know, Frankel essentially found that the thing that we want most as humans is, is meaning. And he defined meaning as like basically a deep reason to live that's bigger than yourself. And that's what I hear you saying. And his local therapy, which is essentially bringing people into, and feel free to add or correct anything I'm saying, but.

His logotherapy, which was essentially bringing people through that process of finding that compelling vision for the life and just finding a deep reason [00:50:00] to live that was bigger than themselves, was very effective. More effective than modern therapy, like you're saying. And, you know, he ran a clinic in Vienna.

Um, I know we've talked about this, Jack, but he ran a clinic in Vienna for, um, patients who were struggling with suicide. They wanted to kill themselves and it said that, you know, through local therapy, it was so effective that he never lost a single patient, which is so fascinating. And so, um, I think there is such power and, you know, while not neglecting yourself and your suffering, like we do need to heal, there is so much power and healing in that act of doing something for someone else and, and going beyond our own pain.

Jack: Yeah, I mean, I was one of the clients that I was working with who was sexually abused by a sibling and the client hadn't talked about it for 40 years and decided to talk about it. And a big reason why this individual didn't want to talk about it is because, like, I don't want to wallow in it. I just don't want to wallow in it.

I don't want to, I don't want to have to talk about it and all this stuff. But it was inhibiting this person's [00:51:00] ability to love, right? It was inhibiting their capacity to love. And so I, and be loved by other people. And I remember how much of an unburdening experience it was for this individual for me to be like, we're going to explore and enter deep into that experience of trauma so that you can draw meaning from it and that that meaning can can bring you to a place in your life in which you are better capable of To not only handle life, but be able to bring tremendous good to the rest of the world.

Like, there was this one woman that I knew near where I lived, I only met her twice. She went through incredibly difficult times. In the course of one year, she lost a child, she lost her husband, she lost both of her parents. And she had to take over the family farm. And she went through a process, internally, to draw so much meaning from it, that in the last 20 years of her life, she served at her local parish as the person that everyone would call, or not call, she would just show up.

in the [00:52:00] darkest moments of their life. So when a child died unexpectedly in the community, this woman, her Anita, Anita was her name, she would show up with pie. And oftentimes she was the only person who could sit in a room and help grieving parents make it through the day. She was oftentimes the only person who could walk into a room of someone who just lost a parent and help them feel understood and not alone in the world.

And so when she died, I mean, she was farm girl. Indiana, she did all the hidden things you do in a church, like clean the toilets and pick up the flyers on the floor and all the hidden stuff, turn the lights on, everything, nobody, you know, there's nothing visible about her. When she died, the entire county came out for a funeral.

Because at some point or another, they went through something difficult, and she showed up with Pi, and the kind of understanding that only comes from someone who drew meaning from their suffering. And it's like, the thing that she most wished never happened, has become her greatest gift to love people.

And that's [00:53:00] possible for literally anyone. Everyone, like literally everybody listening to this podcast right now, no matter the scale of the difficult thing that you've been through, it can become your superpower to love other people and to uplift other people. And the only person who gets to determine whether or not that's the case, like, is you.

It is you. 100%. It's you.

Joey: So good. I love it. And I, I think that that's a great place to end on. But before we do, I just want to ask about, um, yeah, I know you offer mentorship. So please tell us a bit about that. Like what it is that you offer and how people can find you online.

Jack: Yeah, absolutely. So you can, you can find me, you can find me in two places.

You can find me at Jack beers dot com or you can find me at the catholic mentor dot com. Jack beers dot com is a place for one on one, a group coaching. Uh, it's really meant for me to walk with you in, in a short season of your life, usually about six weeks. Uh, and I run people through a program called Rise, and it's really a system of self awareness and, and deepening your self awareness.

The [00:54:00] phrase I usually say is, um, know thyself so you can give thyself. So it's, it's sort of a six weeks program. six week boot camp with one on one coaching mixed into it, and you can find that in both sites in both places. If you're looking for specifically Catholic accompaniment, that's why you go to thecatholicmentor.

com, and that's a, that's a form of daily accompaniment, really an elevation of Catholic psychology. Spirituality and anthropology to help you kind of face the storms in your life and draw meaning from them

Joey: so good to truly be that guide. And man, I've learned a lot from you, even in this interview. So I can only imagine how helpful that mentorship would be.

And so I definitely encourage you guys to it. At least check that out, um, you'll learn more about it, get some information about what it would look like to, to work with Jack. Um, but Jack, just want to say, thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing your wisdom and your story with us. Um, I know we're all better for it.

And just in closing, just want to give you the final word, what final advice, encouragement would you leave to everyone [00:55:00] listening right now before we sign off?

Jack: Well, thank you, Joey. Uh, we've only gotten to know each other a little bit and I feel so blessed by you already. So I look forward to, to our relationship to deepen as well.

Joey: Likewise.

Jack: Last word is, uh, you can do hard things. You were made to do hard things, and you will become a shadow of who you could be if you don't.

Joey: There's so much that we discussed in this episode that it can be pretty easy to feel kind of overwhelmed by it all. And so my challenge to you is this, what's just one thing that really resonated with you in this conversation?

Just take action on that one thing today or this week. Make a simple plan to just act on that, whatever that looks like. Um, that's it. That's all you have to do. And so if you want to relisten to maybe figure out what the one thing is, feel free. But if you know it, just make a plan, take action on that one thing.

And I promise you, if you stay with it, you're going to get some results in your life. And if you come from a divorce or broken family, or, you know, someone who maybe does come from a divorce or broken family, We offer more [00:56:00] resources at Restore than just this podcast. Uh, those resources include things like a book, uh, free video courses.

They're free now. We might change that in the future. Um, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and built virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better. life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself, or maybe someone that, you know, just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken marriage, uh, feel free to share this podcast with them. Feel free to even text them now, uh, to say, Hey, you know, I listened to this.

I thought of you thought it might be helpful. I promise you, even if they don't maybe say it, they're going to be very grateful for you sharing it with them. I wish someone had done that for me years ago. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can [00:57:00] start where you are and change the ending. Joey: [00:00:00] At a young age, Jack was diagnosed with an incurable disease, and as you can imagine, it brought a lot of physical and emotional pain into his life. But, uh, through that suffering, through that experience, the lessons he learned, and the transformation that he experienced, led him to say this. The thing I wish most never happened, I am most grateful.

Four in this episode, we dive into that, but especially we talk about like what led up to that transformation and so much more like the bitterness and the loneliness that he felt going through all of that, uh, in the moment that transformed his disease from a description to a dare. Uh, we also hit on the lessons that he learned from his pain and how his life looks different.

Now, uh, he answers the question, how do we actually transform some, how do we transform in a way that actually lasts, that actually changes us into a better version of ourselves. We talked about our tendency to. We're going to re play the trauma that we've endured and what to do if you feel stuck. And finally, why we need mentors in our lives to guide us, to challenge us, but also to kind of point out our [00:01:00] blind spots.

So, if you or someone you know has struggled navigating, you know, pain and suffering in your life, You're not going to want to miss this episode. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation, or broken marriage. So you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 123.

We're so happy that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard numerous stories of people who've just been really helped by the podcast. One listener said this, I'm so thankful for finding this community. Your podcast couldn't have come at a better time. I literally found it only days after your first episode and it was so therapeutic and helpful.

It feels so good and sad, of course, to know that the feelings you have growing up in such an [00:02:00] environment are something others also can relate to. Earlier, I have been made to believe that my feelings are over the top and have been told, especially by my mom, that all people have problems and that the world still has to go on.

Now, I know that it is allowed to have unfinished emotions and that you can't just brush problems under a rug. I'd like that you encourage us to take steps to try to heal and deal with the wrongs from our past. Thank you for that. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out or eating healthier, perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans. It just didn't work for you. Then this is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds [00:03:00] Customize fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment. But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I want to mention three things.

One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped. Dude, he's also a good virtuous man, too. He's not just, you know, obsessed with the way that he looks. Uh, second thing is he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And through that experience and studying at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest of your, yourself, like your body.

Uh, we really need to care for it all so that we can become more virtuous and more free. Uh, to love. And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people, you know, look good on the beach or something like that. His mission is to really lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

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Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing transformations that his clients have achieved, just go to dakotalanefitness. com, dakotalanefitness. com, or just click on the link in the show notes. Uh, by the way, this is the last time that you'll hear about Dakota Lane Fitness.

So if you're on the fence, you know, maybe you've heard this before and like, man, I would like to check that out. I recommend just doing three really simple things. A one, just go to his website, click on the show notes, go to dakotalanefitness. com, just, just go to the website. Once you're on there, he has a transformations page at this recording as his transformation.

And you'll see kind of a mix of before and after pictures as well as testimonials from, from his clients just to see how Dakota has helped other [00:05:00] people. And then finally, if you want to take another step in that direction, you can schedule a free console. Just click on the, the contact button on his website and you can fill out a form to just schedule a free consult with him and you can just get a little bit more information about what it might look like, the pricing and everything, uh, of working with Dakota.

And again, You have nothing to lose, uh, just a little bit of time and effort, but, um, I'm sure it will, I'm sure it will help you. And so I definitely recommend checking him out again, go ahead and click on the link in the show notes or go to Dakota lane fitness. com, uh, to make use of all that. My guest today is Jack Beers.

Jack is the founder and leader of the Catholic Mentor. On top of over a decade in ministry as a speaker and leader, Jack is a certified mentor through the Catholic Psych Institute. He is trained to accompany individuals Through the storms of life by an integration, sound, uh, psychology and authentic Catholic anthropology.

It's kind of big words, but we'll break into those in this episode. Um, the certification was developed and led by Dr. Gregory Bataro. Uh, Jack lives in [00:06:00] Cincinnati with his wife and their two children. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Jack. Jack, so good to have you. Welcome.

Jack: Great to be here with you, Joey.

Thanks for having me.

Joey: Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you. Um, I have to ask kind of the obvious question, given your last name, do you like beer? Do you drink beer?

Jack: Yeah. So I usually, when people ask me, oh, your name is Jack Beers, you know, like, uh, that's awesome. What a great name. I'll usually be like, you know, my middle name is Daniels.

With an S, you know, I'm very Irish, you know, I have Irish parents, you know, it's not, you know, but if people get really pumped by it, I mean, I literally have a memory of being 10 and having being in a baseball field and having high schoolers come to you be like, wow, one day you're going to have some great parties, man.

Could be awesome. And, uh, and I'm an irony. I can't drink beer. So I, it's just a walking irony. Look at people. I want to drink beer with this guy. Well, like, I can't if you want to [00:07:00] Jameson on the rocks, you know, we could do that together, but you know, I'm not, I'm not going to fulfill your lifelong fantasy of, of watching someone with the last name of beers, you know, drain a beer or whatever.

Joey: I love the Jack Daniels joke. That's what's legend good stuff, man. Well, yeah,

Jack: yeah.

Joey: Shift into more serious items. I, um, I know, you know, a lot of people listening right now have endured a lot of pain, a lot of suffering because of their parents divorce, the breakdown of their family and everything that comes along with that.

And so while that might not be specifically part of your story, I know you have suffered. How's about that?

Jack: That's quite the transition. Um, yeah, I, I'm so grateful to be able to go deep here with you. Um, suffering has been a huge part of my life and it's been, uh, I think Tolkien said this. He's like the thing for which I wish most never happened.

I am most grateful for. He said and I, I very much come to a place of that. Where the things that I wish most never happened to me are the things in which [00:08:00] I'm most grateful for at the same time. And it took a long time to get there. It took a lot of work to get there. But I, I do like to frame the idea of suffering.

Like, I know that people have suffered more than me. And I know that the suffering that, that I have is, um, you know, relatively speaking is what it is. But, but it is still real. And it is still. Difficult and challenging. Anyway, so to the details of it, uh, when I was 11, I've always been like this. I've always been like tall and lanky and like a strong breeze could blow me over.

So I've never been, you know, I've never been necessarily robust physically. And when I was 11, I lost 15 pounds in 10 days. And I had a shortcut, and, you know, I looked like I was dying. I looked like I was a cancer patient. You could see my ribs and all this stuff. And it turned out that I had something called Crohn's disease, which is a, which is a chronic illness.

And, and this is like 2001. There's no [00:09:00] gluten free anything anywhere that's not like celiac. It's just known by people. It's like no one in my circle had ever heard of Crohn's disease, unless they're part of the medical community. And so we, my parents and I, like, we had. I have no idea what's happening.

It's like you lose, you know, 15 pounds in 10 days. And now you have this thing, it's called Crohn. And I remember I was, I'm 11, I have a fever and Crohn's can manifest itself in all different kinds of ways. And, and for me, I had like an exterior abscess and I, and I, so like it was painful, like I couldn't walk from 15 feet from my room to the bathroom.

I couldn't physically do it. It would just, it was too painful. So. For me to do just like hurt too much, uh, to move. So I'm like sitting in this doctor's office, I'm 11 and I have a fever. It's like one Oh two, one Oh three. And it's just constant. Like I can't move. I'm in a lot of pain. I just found out I have Crohn's disease.

And this doctor's like, okay, you're in a great spot. You know, I'm the best [00:10:00] doctor in the East coast for this. I have access to the best medication in the world. And I can get you down to three hospital stays a year, every year for the rest of your life. And my parents were just like, what? Yeah. Three hospital stays a year every year for the rest of his life.

Like, what is, what does that mean? What is his life going to look like? And this doctor straight up just went, you're going to have, you're not going to be taller than five foot two. You're not going to be able to hold down a job. You won't be able to go away to college. Like you, you need to understand something.

Like your son is now disabled. That's what it is. And I was like, I mean, I'm 11, but you're, even at 11, right? Like, you're conscious of what's happening. I'm aware of what this guy is saying. And I remember my mom looking at me and being like, that will not be your life. Like, whatever that man said, like, throw it out of your mind.

Like, that will not be your life. But I You know, I kind of believe the doctors, more of a, I believe my mom there. And so through the first four years of me having Crohn's disease, I missed over 250 days of school. I barely grew. I mean, [00:11:00] everything but the number of hospital stays was kind of coming through, coming to fruition from, from what the doctor shared over the course of the first four years.

And it was, yeah, it was awful. It was awful.

Joey: No, I can't imagine just being in your shoes and, you know, up to that point, it sounded like life was more or less normal. You know, you were, Growing and yeah, just things in life kind of looked like you'd expect for someone at that age. And then all of a sudden it just completely turns on its head, like how difficult.

And one of the questions just in preparing for this interview that I was thinking through, it's like the lessons that were, you know, kind of baked into that experience. And so I'd love to tend to tease that out because I really am a firm believer that like you said, with the token quote, there's All these like really difficult, painful things we go through in life, but my goodness, it can like warm us.

It can transform us. It can like teach us so, so much. So yeah, what lessons did you learn through this whole experience?

Jack: Yeah, well, you know, I'd probably go on for a long time on this one, but yeah, so I, like I said, the first four years were really, you know, they were brutal. I remember watching the Red [00:12:00] Sox come back and beat the Yankees and I'm a huge New York Mets fan, so I was happily rooting for that.

And just. It was when that happened, when Big Poppy was, you know, breaking his bat and hitting a base hit over second to win the game in extras, or hitting his home run to win the game in extras, or Johnny Damon's hitting a grand slam to just, Absolutely wrecked the Yanks in game seven. Like that was, that was probably the peak worst period for me.

Like I was watching that semi and I mean, it was, and by worse, I mean, like pain wise, like I was literally, it felt like my body was on fire. Like I could remember watching that game and just. Being on fire. And so I really feel like there were three levels of pain for me over the course of those first four years and the first two I was really cognizant of because they were obvious.

The first one was the physical pain, right? Like it just You're just suffering like I'm just sitting there suffering like can't play baseball. I'm extracted from social life It's just [00:13:00] physically difficult to get around and be around and move. So there's the physical pain The next one is is the emotional pain and the emotional suffering.

So when I first got sick, I got all this attention Letters and notes and gifts and presents and everything along those lines and then pretty much out of sight out of mind Everybody else abandoned me. It was sort of isolated I had my parents and I had my twin sister who and my grandmother who really cared everybody else aunts and uncles other Grandparents people I thought were friends It's like I didn't exist and I sort of been wiped off the face of the planet and it was very lonely You And I got bitter as all getup.

I was, um, I don't know if you've ever seen It's a Wonderful Life, but there's this, uh, there's this famous moment where sort of the evil character is like, you once called me a warped, frustrated old man. What are you but a warped, frustrated young man? And that's, that was me. I'm like 14 [00:14:00] years old, warped, frustrated.

Bitter, resentful of being abandoned, resentful of having to suffer, resentful of, you know, just very frustrated and angry over, you know, in being imprisoned by this physical limitation. But the thing was, is like, I didn't, I didn't necessarily have to be. My parents had found a different doctor and this really intense food regimen.

It's called a specific carbohydrate diet and we found a way for it to work for me, but it was like I could have like 12 items of food that includes like spices. Wow. So, I mean, I counted once it was like 12 or 17. I don't remember what one. So, like, I would go when I go to school, right? And it would be like, you know, you're in 6th grade and it's an ice cream party, like looking at kids eating a Sunday and I'm eating an overly ripe banana.

You know, it's like. Yeah. That sucks. You know, you go to the Super Bowl party and everybody's eating pizza and I'm eating dry, lightly salted chicken and lettuce with no salad dressing. You know, it's like, that sucks. [00:15:00] But it had the potential to work. Like, we'd seen flashes and it worked, uh, at different, at different periods.

I would go through two or three months where I would be super healthy. And then, and then it would be back down. Anyway, so there was, I, I had this physical pain and this emotional pain and this emotional bitterness, but I also had this tool, this, this food regimen that was at my disposal that could help me get healthy.

And when I was 14, I was sitting in my room and my mom came into my room and she had two presents for me. And at that time, I was, it was shortly after the Red Sox had won the World Series and I had to be homeschooled the whole year because it physically, it was, it was that bad. And so I was, I was pretty down, pretty emotionally frustrated and all that stuff.

And my mom, she just comes into my room and she's got two gifts for me. And the first gift is a, a wall sized poster of Muhammad Ali. And at that time, Adidas was running this ad campaign that said impossible is nothing. And so it was Muhammad Ali standing over Sonny [00:16:00] Liston, yelling at him to get up and fight him like a real man, about to become heavyweight champion of the world.

And then on the bottom, it says impossible is nothing. And my mom, she just absolutely calls me out. And, and she's like, I've been trying to will you to health. I've been trying to will you to put your mind and your heart and your everything into getting healthy, but you're sitting on the sidelines, you're not engaged, you're going through the motions, and the truth is, you can take incurable as a declaration, or you could take it as a dare, a dare to rise to the occasion of your life.

So she shows me the poster, and she's like, Muhammad Ali said, impossible is just a made up word. Impossible is nothing. Impossible is a dare. And she, so she goes through this whole quote of, of Muhammad Ali. She's like, apply that to incurable. Incurable is just a word. It's nothing. It's a dare. It's not a declaration.

It's a dare. And it's life daring you to rise to the occasion of it, to grow from it, to embrace it. So she hands me the second gift [00:17:00] and it's, um, it's a dog tag. And on the dog tag, it says, Incurable is not a declaration. It's a dare. And, and she's like, I'll continue to do everything I can to help you get healthy, but you never will until you, until you get in the game.

So get in the game and, uh, yeah, so she absolutely called me out and one of the most inspiring moments of my entire life and I decided to, to take her up on it. I decided to take to the dare. I decided to, um, as, uh, Robert Downey jr would say, uh, hug the cactus. I decided to confront the inner self and turn toward the inner storm, and nothing changed about my exterior life, man.

Like, nothing changed. The diet didn't change. My school didn't change. My family didn't change. Nothing about my external life changed. Nothing about my external environment changed. First four years, I missed 250 days of school. The next eight years through college, um, I missed less than 10. I grew to [00:18:00] be six feet tall.

I went away to school. I was, for all intents and purposes, you couldn't tell that I had a chronic illness and what made the difference was doing the inner work and the original question is a really long answer to it. But the original question is like, what's one of the life lessons that you learned? And so I just, I go to the, I go to the biggest one, which is you got to confront the dragon within.

All the crap that was happening inside of me, that I was bottling up, that I was pushing down, that I was ignoring, that I refused to confront, the anger, the bitterness, the frustration, the the sense that this was unfair, I have three sister I have two sisters, like, why did I get it? One of them's a twin, why did I get it?

Everybody else gets to live a normal life, why do I have to sit over here and eat this disgusting food and in order to just be normal and then confront a lot of the bitterness and the pain of other people and being abandoned and not walking around so angry all of the time at everyone. That was the lesson.

Like I got to turn toward the storm. I can't [00:19:00] run away from it. I have to turn toward it. I have to embrace it more than anything.

Joey: Wow. What a story. I so much. I want to say one of the things that you just brought to mind was this whole battle with ourselves, right? I think that so often I know in my life, it's myself has been like the scariest person to face.

And, and it's just fascinating. So I love your insight on that. Like, why is that such a scary thing? Why do, and why do we avoid it so much? Like, why do we run in the opposite direction? It seems like we'd almost, you know, be more willing to face like these Insurmountable like enemies on the outside than just look interiorly and face ourselves.

Jack: It's a great question. I think one of one of the reasons is that every spiritual master, every master of the inner life has essentially said, if you want to dive deep and look at yourself, you have to do it. with someone else. Like, you cannot do it alone. It's not like a David and Goliath situation where you're out, and you're looking at this big Goliath, and you're like, okay, well, [00:20:00] what weapons do I have?

You know, like, I'll just, I'll just fight, or I'll learn, I'll be trained how to fight, and then I'll just, like, go fight. Like, the inner world, because of the natural inclination of the emotional life and the inner life to protect ourselves and to deceive ourselves, it can be so hard to unravel. And really understand it, and you actually need someone else to reflect you back to you, to really be able to understand you.

So part of it is just practical, like, you can't really do it alone. And, and none of the, the masters of the inner world, and we could be talking about Buddha, we could be talking about St. Francis de Sales, we could be talking about modern mindfulness practitioners, you know, like, Everybody talks about having a guide to help you enter into the inner life, make sense of what's going on.

One of the things that that has really become true and, and that we've developed a deeper understanding about from a psychological perspective is that, is that we're, we're made up [00:21:00] of a bunch of inner parts and multiple personality disorder is a disorder of something that is actually natural and good within us, which is when something happens, like we win the lottery.

Multiple parts of us react to the same thing. One of the simplest examples of it, it would be like, not the lottery, but like, if you're gonna go play a game, and part of you is excited, but part of you is nervous, right, like you feel both emotions at the same time. It's because there's literally a part of you that feels the nerves, and a part of you that is excited.

Like, I love baseball, I would always be nervous, because I was afraid, there's a part of me that was always afraid of failing. And then I would also be really excited because there's a part of me that loves baseball, that loves to play the game, right? So you go to get married, and there's a part of you that loves your spouse.

But there's another part of you that has, comes from a broken home, and it's that arrested development part. It's that 10 year old sitting in your parents living room, like, hearing that your parents are getting divorced. That is [00:22:00] also reacting to this idea of getting married. That's like marriage is a sham.

You know, you're only going to hurt people. It's not real. Like that part of you is until that part of you is healed. Like you can't, you can't contain that part of you from reacting and for you to make sense of all of those different parts and how they interact with one another is not something for someone to do by themself.

Like you need to be able to do it with with the help of somebody else.

Joey: So good. One of the principles that we operate on is that healing happens in relationships.

Jack: Yeah.

Joey: Healing happens in, in relationship and it's exactly for the reason you said. And yeah, no, so good. And I think the other thing that comes to mind when you say all that is the idea of blind spots.

I think you articulated that really well that there's literally things that you can't see or access or, you know, Work through on your own and there's different, you know, parts of this, like, since we're using the sports analogy, it's like, you know, I was a baseball player as well through the years and play with some incredible guys.

I was never like at the D one level, but I play with guys who [00:23:00] D one got drafted, all that stuff. And, uh, you know, whether it was them or me, someone, you know, not as skilled, there were certain parts of my swing or, you know, feeling or whatever that maybe I was doing wrong that I couldn't. Yeah. See or know until a coach came up to me and said, Hey, the way you're fielding that ball, like try this, you know, try picking it or funneling it this way, try, you know, the way you're swinging, like loosen your hands a little bit more, drop your elbow, all of that.

And I went through coaching like that and it's amazing, like the transformation you could see, but I could have, honestly, Jack, I could have spent like a year trying to like critique my own swing and I probably would have missed a lot of that.

Jack: Yeah. So I

Joey: think it's, it's so profound. Like you have a coach, a guide, um, in your life who's able to kind of point out those blind spots and then give you a bit of a plan to work through that.

Jack: Yes. I, one of the most amazing things is actually, it's not the most masculine thing in the world, but it's art. Art is some of the best. It contains some of some of the best tools to elicit sort of hidden exiles within you. Um, I was working with [00:24:00] with one of my clients and I know we'll talk about what I do at some point, but it's working with one of them.

And really discovered that he was having some trouble in his marriage and that one of his main pain points that he couldn't get past was actually something that happened to him when he was pre verbal, so like he couldn't communicate. So he couldn't share with me what was really happening or what was really driving, um, this behavior that was causing a lot of conflict in his marriage.

And so I, I asked him to draw himself in conflict with his wife. Just draw your image of what's happening. And what he drew unlocked so much of what was happening, because the content almost didn't matter, like, what happened to him didn't matter. What happened was how he felt in that context, and how it keeps getting duplicated over and over and over again in different contexts, right?

He keeps having the same emotional reaction regardless of the content, because there's a part of him that keeps emerging. So he could never [00:25:00] see that part, understand that part, speak to that part. Until I was sort of able to help draw that out of him through the art of drawing, which is an amazing thing, but you know, you're never going to think of that on your own, right?

You're never going to come to that on your own. It's like, how am I going to break this pattern in my life? How am I going to trust people again? How am I going to do, how can I possibly believe that love is worth it or that setting myself up to be hurt again is worth it? It's like, well, you have to talk to that part of you that thinks it's not worth it and you have to understand it.

And and understand the role it's playing in your life and know that that part of you is good. It just doesn't want you to get hurt. It's not helping you right now, but it's still good. It doesn't. It desires your good. So how do we how do we engage with that part of you and understand it? And it's you cannot do that alone.

Joey: You can't. No, it's so good. And I love men. What a great example on how helpful. Sit to that, you know, client of yours, my goodness. I'm sure you know this, but that's like what therapists will do. I know you're not a therapist and you weren't trying to give [00:26:00] therapy, but that's what therapists will do in trauma therapy.

I've been through it myself. And like the use of art therapy is so important because my understanding of it, one theory of like the brain is that we have One side of our brain is more emotional, and the other side of our brain is more logical. And the logical side of our brain is the part of our brain that controls language, and, you know, math, and things like that.

The emotional side of our brain is more controlling, you know, reaction, and like, if we're in danger, then it will, you know, kind of take control. And literally, when you go through something traumatic, The logical part of your brain actually constricts, it chemically constricts, it gets smaller, the emotional side gets bigger so that you can react and save your life, right?

Think of, you know, extreme examples of a tiger chasing you or other examples, like, you know, we're talking about your parents getting divorced. And so. So the pre verbal thing that happened with that client is so interesting to me because that is similar even with people who are post verbal, who can, you know, speak and things, they might not even be able to articulate what they had been through because the place where the trauma is encoded is in that emotional side of their brain.

And so the [00:27:00] art therapy side of it can help people go beyond the language. And one other thing that I think is just so fascinating that I loved learning, I want to share with everyone listening is. Um, there's a part of our brain, I think it's called Broca's area, if I'm getting that right. And, uh, and that part of our brain, um, does play a role in like controlling language, helping us put things to words.

And that part of our brain will actually go offline when we've endured a trauma, or maybe more contextual to that sort of trauma when things are triggered. Um, which is so fascinating. So no, I just love, I couldn't help but share that because I think it's so helpful. And especially if people are, you know, experiencing this right now, maybe they've been through some traumatic, their family falling apart, their parents getting divorced, whatever.

And, you know, they are like struggling to like put it into words. It's like, well, there you go. There's some of the science of it. Maybe not perfectly articulated, but, um, it's certainly, certainly helpful.

Jack: Yeah, and and the other thing is because you can't this is one of the things that I learned about myself as well It's like because you can't articulate it because you're not exactly sure what's happening You will actually try and replay [00:28:00] your trauma in other Contexts across time in an attempt to try and win right like our brain categorizes it as a loss Something happened and we got hurt And we want to replay the circumstances again across time and across other relationships so that we can win and avoid that hurt.

So like for me, right, like I, I get sick and I perceive people all over the place as abandoning me. So in my mind, I'm not conscious of this, but in my mind, like when you get close to people who don't have to love you, like mom and dad, like they will burn you. So, what did I start doing? I started burning those relationships before they had a chance to burn me.

So, it keeps happening over and over again, where relationships end prematurely, or I make sure I'm the one who breaks up with the girl, whether or not I have a good reason. Um, it's like, what's happening there? Why is that pattern repeating itself? Well, it's because I don't want to have the same thing happen again.

[00:29:00] I don't want to get so vulnerable to the, I don't want to go vulnerable past the point of knowing that I'm going to get hurt to a similar degree as this other circumstance, so I'm going to cut this relationship off, so that doesn't happen, so I don't have to trust you, so I don't have to be vulnerable with you, so I don't have to be in a relationship with you, and so I just had really superficial relationships for a really long period of time, and it was, And it was specifically because I was replaying that trauma.

I'm going to end this before you have a chance to end it with me. So good.

Joey: I love that language that you put to that, like how we're replaying the trauma. I've heard people talk about it in other ways, but that, like, for some reason really sticks well with me, how we're attempting to turn a loss into a win.

Super good. I think the other side of that coin too, that people have heard, maybe I'll talk about in the show is this idea of like repetition compulsion, how we might end up repeating behavior that harmed us or we despise. Yes. And it was just so, so interesting, fascinating and such a big pain point, by the way, Jack, for people like us, [00:30:00] who like me, who come from broken families, because we saw something that was very broken and painful.

And we went through that ourselves with our parents marriage falling apart or whatever dysfunction at home. And we're like terrified of repeating that in our own lives, especially if there were extreme things like infidelity or whatever. Um, and so that that's like a major concern. So this whole idea of repetition, compulsion, and trying to avoid that is just like such a big, Concern, even if it's something that's not like this conscious, it's somewhere, you know, in our subconscious often pulling at us.

So I'm curious to your like insights or advice on that side of the coin of kind of this fear of going down this path that we really don't want to go on.

Jack: Yeah, well, so there's so many different things that could happen. So my dad, my dad's parents got divorced, um, my grandfather was, was unfaithful, and it was just an absolute abject mess of a home, right?

So my dad decided he was gonna be the exact opposite of his dad, right? Like, that was his, that was his reaction, that was his play. And he was gonna go to the, the [00:31:00] extreme other side. So you can do that. Other people don't want to hurt anybody else, so they'll, so they'll isolate, or they'll, Depending on when divorce happens, you know, if it happens in the preteen years, let's say 13, 14, one of the most natural things to do is to sexualize your pain because you have a sexual awakening.

And so you start sexualizing your pain, whether that be creating fantasies or scenarios in which you're in complete control. So like porn is a big, can be a big challenge for people coming out of divorce because One of the, one of the things that porn does for a person is it puts you entirely in control of your whole scenario and of your entire environment and people who come from broken families, it's like, you're not in control of your dad, you're not in control of your mom, you're not in control of where you live, you're not in control of whose house maybe you're going to be in, you're not in control of how you're spoken to, whether dad keeps crapping on mom or mom keeps crapping on dad, like you're not in control of it.

Anything. And so you're looking to have some form of control. So [00:32:00] you turn to something that you can control or, you know, you want to numb, right? So what's one of the biggest things that can happen for people who deal with a lot of pain is that they don't want to feel what they're feeling anymore. So they'll, they'll drink excessively or they'll, or they'll smoke weed and get high.

It's like when things get too difficult, you know, you smoke weed and you can get high or you become a self fulfilling prophecy. Right? You start, you start doing the things that you hate were done to you. And that part is like, this happens all the time with parents. So you become a parent, and all of a sudden you're like, Oh my gosh, that was my dad speaking.

Right? That wasn't me. And they have this realization. They're like, Oh crap, I'm turning into my mom. And it's like, you're not turning into your mom. You're not turning into your dad. It's literally the only context you have for parenthood. Right? So it's like, I want to go into a relationship. Okay, what's your only context for romance?

You have a tendency to then duplicate that over time, [00:33:00] because it's like, I don't know what to do. When a woman comes to me, let's say I'm a man, and my parents got divorced, and a woman comes to me, and she's emotionally needy. And I only ever saw my dad say to my mom, like, shut up and get me a beer, or like, Shut up and make dinner and now I have a girlfriend who's crying excessively and it doesn't make any sense to my male Logical emotional brain and my only context is shut up and deal with it and serve me It's like what are you gonna do in that moment?

For a number of people, the response is, I'm going to do some form of what I saw, because I'm just, I'm just reacting. I'm not thinking about it. And so I, I do it, especially, especially if you idolize that parent in particular, and part of the divorce was, was a shattering of the character, of the person who you really loved.

Then it's even more complicated because you're wanting to imitate someone, and there's a part of you that always wanted to imitate this person that [00:34:00] you idealized, and now the idealization is shattered, and you're, you're not sure what to do with that. Anyway, all of that, across all of these contexts, the content almost doesn't matter, and the reaction almost doesn't matter, anywhere near as much as What is the function driving your behavior?

A lot of popular way to look at this is like, what's the story you're telling yourself, you know, is the story you're telling yourself, which is like, my grandfather was a piece of crap. My father is a piece of crap. I'm a piece of crap. And this is what we do. This is what the men in our family do. Well, where does that come from?

Why is a part of you feel that way? Why are you responding like that? Or, I have to drink because I can't confront this pain. Well, why? Because I can't handle it. Okay, well, let's figure out what that came from. Because the drive to drink, the drive to porn, like, those are not, those drives are not bad, right?

Like, it's literally your body trying to help you get through the day. And what needs to happen is healing needs to happen. Freedom needs to [00:35:00] emerge from that healing so that you can then turn to that part of you and it's like I know what you're doing. I know why you're doing it. Thank you. But I don't need you anymore.

I don't need you to do that for me anymore. I can do hard things or I'm going to break the pattern. I'm going to learn how to love. That was, again, a long winded answer, but So good. It's a complex question.

Joey: It is, you know, it's, I mean, we could do a whole episode on it. There's so much you said there. I love the acknowledgement that that behavior served some sort of a purpose.

Not to say it was good behavior, not justifying it, but it's like, Hey, you know, if porn was your way or alcohol or drugs or whatever was your way of dealing with the pain, it served some purpose. And so, but then saying, okay, I want to move beyond that. I no longer need that. I want to outgrow it. Cause I really think that's like, so key to dealing with any sort of pain and problems in our lives is like, we need to just outgrow that pain and that those problems in our lives.

And obviously heal as well. And so, so much good stuff. And I do think that's possible. And I [00:36:00] want to get into like kind of reprogramming. Um, but two other things, I'd love to hear your thoughts before we move on. One is just this whole idea that we are, each of us are living out a story. You know, you said kind of, you know, you know, what story are you essentially telling with your life?

And it's true, like each of us is living out a story. And I think when we think of Any movie or novel we've read, it's like the hero usually starts in some broken way or they're facing some big problem, right? That debilitates them or prevents them from getting what they want. Um, but then they go through a period of transformation and every story I've seen always happens with a form of a guide, like we've already talked about.

So I think there's something to be said there as well. Like what, what story are you living out now? And what story do you want to be living out? And then what's the transformation needs to occur in order for you to do that. And then the final thing on the sexualized pain, I was just going to comment on Jay Stringer has been on this podcast.

He wrote an awesome book called unwanted. I definitely recommend you guys check it out. If this is an area of interest talking about, you know, unwanted sexual behavior and things like that. Uh, he quotes Dr. Patrick Carnes. He's a leading expert on sexual [00:37:00] addiction. He said that 87 percent of people who struggle with the sexual addiction come from a broken family, which is profound.

Um, and so I love that you kind of hit on that point too, because I think this, this audience, people like me are dealing with these sorts of things or have dealt with it in the past. So I'd love to hear your comments and then switch over to how do we reprogram this? How do we transform?

Jack: Yeah, well, porn, addiction, alcohol.

Like, they're extremely destructive. I think the nuance that, that I was, the line that I'm trying to walk is like, the part of you that drove you to those outlets is not bad. Them as outlets is destructive. It's the, it's the whole, it's the old adage of like, hate the sin, love the sinner, right? It's like, hate the porn, love the part of you that wants to protect you.

When I work with clients in particular who are addicted to porn, sometimes you have to do, you know, who, who don't want to be addicted to porn, like, you have to do some temporary measures or some coping mechanisms to, to sort of break the cycle and break the habit. But in the long haul, when you heal the relationship, [00:38:00] the original relationship, the part where the pain emerged from, when you heal that dynamic, the great majority of the drive to porn is gone.

And it's really understanding that not all, but so much. of addiction can be, can be significantly healed if you heal the relationship or if you heal from the experience that really drove you to cope with the pain through this mechanism. So I, I definitely want to add that clarification. Essentially what you were saying was decide who to be and go be it and wanting to, wanting to break the cycle and the story that you tell yourself.

One of the biggest things for, for me personally, And, and one of the aspects of my work and, and as a parent, one of the things that I really strive because it's been so important for me to, to share with my kids is reclaiming what freedom you do have and reclaiming your responsibility for your own life.

I know we have a mutual love for Viktor Frankl, the founder of Logotherapy, and in his book, Man's Search for [00:39:00] Meaning, which is a, which is just top five favorite book of mine of all time, he talks about the last of human freedoms and this idea that regardless of anything else, What can never be taken from a human being is the ability to choose their attitude in a given circumstance.

The exception to that is, like, when you lose your mental faculties. So, so provided you have your mental faculties, you're not struggling from dementia or Alzheimer's or, let's say, multiple personality disorder. But if you're, if you have your mental faculties, there's literally no power on earth Not even God himself has given himself the power to force you to respond in a particular way and to claim that freedom that you do have.

Like people who've gone through significant trauma or significant suffering, it's like the first step is to acknowledge the pain and to acknowledge the storm that you're in or that you've gone through and to acknowledge its impact on you. But the second step, and arguably the most important one, is What are [00:40:00] you going to do about it?

You have the freedom to choose how you respond. Your attitude, your outlook, how you look at it. You know, the first four years of me being sick, like, I had a terrible attitude. Victim, impossibility. Bitterness, resentment, anger, you know, when things turned around, it was an attitude of possibility. Like, what can I control?

One of the great images of this is Jesus hugging his cross. You know, like when I didn't grow up with any particular faith, and I remember the first time I heard the story of Jesus hugging his cross and him willing to The suffering that was imposed upon him. It was like, that, that's it. That's it. That's what I want to do.

Like, that is the most noble thing a person can do, is regardless of their circumstances, regardless of what's being imposed on them, to choose to embrace it. Walk toward the storm and to extract as much meaning as they can from the experience so that they can go turn around and be something and [00:41:00] someone extraordinary for other people, right?

Like the story of Jesus from just a pure human perspective is I'm going to hug this cross. I'm going to brace it with everything that I have so that I can turn around and give abundant life to every other person on the planet, right? It's like, okay, you have the actual ability to transform your suffering.

Into something that blesses every other person that you meet for the rest of your life. Like, no one can decide whether or not that happens but you. And, and claiming that is, I think, that changed my life. And, and I think it changes anyone's life who's going through a particular struggle.

Joey: I think there's, there's such power in kind of looking beyond your own pain.

And there's this idea too, um, of like the helper's high. I, I'm learning about it recently, so I don't know a lot about it. But just how, like, there's research behind the fact that when you Look beyond your own pain and you help other people and the example I was reading was in like the context of like volunteering for some organization.

Let's say there's like literally documentable outcomes, benefits that come from [00:42:00] that. And so it takes this whole idea that like love is healing to like a whole new level because it literally is healing. And so I love that. That's beautiful. And I think that's like the right question to ask. Like, what now?

Like, what am I going to do with this hand? I've been dealt. What am I going to do with it? Because like you said, so many of us have been through you. Pain and trauma, you know, can fall into that victim mentality and just kind of stay stuck there. And what I've seen too in the people that I've walked with, as well as in my own life, is that so often I think our efforts at healing and growth can be become kind of fruitless.

Because of that, maybe hidden underneath the surface, like we're spinning our tires and mud and never really getting anywhere. And so we might be doing good things, like listening to podcasts, reading books, going on retreats, whatever. Because we want that transformation that we're talking about, we want to become that person.

But for some reason that gap is just not being closed as I'm curious, you know, you already mentioned a couple of things that I think are really helpful when it comes to that, but like, how do we actually transform, like what's worked in your life and what [00:43:00] advice do you give in terms of how do you actually transform and become that person that you want to be?

Jack: Yeah, we could do a whole podcast just on this exact question. Uh, yeah. And I'll talk about it from a, from a personal example, and maybe even just some, some work with some clients. Sure. I remember When I tried to start turning things around in my life, I was still in a lot of pain. And it was, you know, it was just, it was rough.

It was still in that rough period. And I remember my mom had a rough day and she, she left the house for whatever reason. She had to go run an errand or something. And I knew that she loved to end her day with tea and she was coming back late. And so I made her a cup of tea without her asking. And it was like, I don't know.

It's like she was four and realizing what Christmas is for the first time, you know, like it was that level of joy and appreciation like to this day, she will talk about that cup of tea that I made her and how and how impactful it was because she knew how much I was suffering that I thought of her, which she never really understood was how impactful that was for [00:44:00] me.

It's like I can do something good for someone else. I don't have to live in this cesspool that is my inner life and my inner thoughts and my own pain. I don't have to steep in this misery every second of every single day. I can actually do something small to bless someone. And so any proper answer on, on types of deep critical questions like the one you just asked has a both and component to it.

So it's like if you're in a rut. And you're feeling like crap and you are just miserable and you can't get out of bed in the morning, like, do something for somebody else, get on your feet, and that's enormously helpful, it's like I'm still a useful human being, you know, like I still have something to offer the world, that's a really useful thing to know, especially when you're in the dark part, then at the same time, Find a guide who is going to walk with you into the depths of the darkness of your own subconscious and your own inner life.

Find someone [00:45:00] who you trust who can help you. And go confront the inner demons. Like go do the inner work and not for you not because you know You're worth it and you're all these things even though you are but so that you can go out and actually bless other people One of the problems with modern therapy is it's like we'll just sit and talk about your feelings and sit in your own inner life And only talk about your inner life and never do anything with it.

It's like the purpose It's to become a self gift. Now, you might be sitting there being like, okay, I want to become a self gift. I want to do the inner work. I don't have anybody that I can go to. It's like, what do I do then? Well, there is something that you can do. If you look at the people who have achieved it.

Greatness in their life and they're all names. You're like, yeah, I've, yeah, I know that they've achieved greatness. Like you go mother Teresa, you go Gandhi, Alexander souls, a niche in like Abraham Lincoln. It's like you, you go to these people and you look at their life. They had a compelling vision of who they were trying to become.

So [00:46:00] let's just look at Gandhi. Gandhi's vision was to become like unto God. I want to become a man who made the invisible God visible. That's what Gandhi was trying to do. It's like, that's my objective. I have a compelling vision for my own personal character and the type of person that I want to be. I want to be God's hand and feet on earth.

That's my goal. That's my objective. And then he coupled to get that together with, I think there are the 11 vows of Gandhi. So I, I call this the moral code of being so it developed a moral code of being for him to be accountable to and for him to look every night and be like, okay, I'm trying to become this person.

These rules are actually capable of bringing out this vision to life. How am I doing on these rules? Right? Like system strive behavior. It's like those 11 vows were there. Gandhi's system that drove the behavior that led to the outcome, you know, if you're a business mind, you know, you're, you're thriving on this, right?

That led to the outcome that you're desiring, right? You start all the way, all the way [00:47:00] at the beginning. Now, you may sit in there and be like, becoming like unto God. That's really lofty. Well, look at someone like Alexander Solzhenitsyn. If you don't know Solzhenitsyn, he is credited with doing the majority of the work of taking down the Soviet Union from within the Soviet Union.

So Solzhenitsyn He was a political prisoner. He spent, I think he spent a decade in the gulags of Soviet Russia, which is hard labor in Siberia. And when he was in the prisons, in the gulag, suffering some of the worst suffering you can conceive of in humanity, it's top three, is the Soviet gulags, which still exists, by the way.

He's in this prison camp, eating this watered down soup and bread and doing hard labor in the frigid temperatures of Siberia. What he realizes is He has to own part of the blame for ending up where he ended up because he participated in the lies that led to communist Russia that allowed a system to be created for people like him to be imprisoned [00:48:00] without due process.

So he made a decision and this is really simple. He's like, I am going to become a man of truth. There will not be a single lie that will ever pass through me ever again. It's like a lack of truth. Created massive amounts of pain for me and everybody I'm in present with. So I'm going to become a man of truth.

So like, let's say you had a really, really mean dad, and the criticism that you feel, and just, the incapacity to do anything because you're just crippled by that constant criticism. It's like, okay, become the kindest person you possibly can. Don't let criticism flow out of your mouth. And then, that's the vision of who you want to be.

It's like, I want to be an incredibly kind person. Or, Jordan Peterson will say this, I want to be the kind of person everybody can rely on at my dad's funeral. Like, okay, that's a really noble vision. What's going to lead me there? And you don't have to pick the ultimate vision, you don't have to pick the ultimate thing.

Like, it's just start walking in the direction of a noble vision of who you could be, [00:49:00] and oftentimes that's enough to elevate your life.

Joey: It's still good. I love all of that. I love the vision component, finding a guide. And I love the idea that you just threw out that the guide doesn't need to be someone who is even alive right now.

If you're not ready for that, I think ultimately it is good to have someone who's mentoring you, is walking with you, who's able to like have real insight into your life. But yeah, we can learn, we can be guided through books, through podcasts, through whatever, um, just like you mentioned. And then, yeah, going back to Frankel, I just love that idea of, you know, Do something for someone else, do something for someone else.

Like, you know, as I know you would say, you know, Frankel essentially found that the thing that we want most as humans is, is meaning. And he defined meaning as like basically a deep reason to live that's bigger than yourself. And that's what I hear you saying. And his local therapy, which is essentially bringing people into, and feel free to add or correct anything I'm saying, but.

His logotherapy, which was essentially bringing people through that process of finding that compelling vision for the life and just finding a deep reason [00:50:00] to live that was bigger than themselves, was very effective. More effective than modern therapy, like you're saying. And, you know, he ran a clinic in Vienna.

Um, I know we've talked about this, Jack, but he ran a clinic in Vienna for, um, patients who were struggling with suicide. They wanted to kill themselves and it said that, you know, through local therapy, it was so effective that he never lost a single patient, which is so fascinating. And so, um, I think there is such power and, you know, while not neglecting yourself and your suffering, like we do need to heal, there is so much power and healing in that act of doing something for someone else and, and going beyond our own pain.

Jack: Yeah, I mean, I was one of the clients that I was working with who was sexually abused by a sibling and the client hadn't talked about it for 40 years and decided to talk about it. And a big reason why this individual didn't want to talk about it is because, like, I don't want to wallow in it. I just don't want to wallow in it.

I don't want to, I don't want to have to talk about it and all this stuff. But it was inhibiting this person's [00:51:00] ability to love, right? It was inhibiting their capacity to love. And so I, and be loved by other people. And I remember how much of an unburdening experience it was for this individual for me to be like, we're going to explore and enter deep into that experience of trauma so that you can draw meaning from it and that that meaning can can bring you to a place in your life in which you are better capable of To not only handle life, but be able to bring tremendous good to the rest of the world.

Like, there was this one woman that I knew near where I lived, I only met her twice. She went through incredibly difficult times. In the course of one year, she lost a child, she lost her husband, she lost both of her parents. And she had to take over the family farm. And she went through a process, internally, to draw so much meaning from it, that in the last 20 years of her life, she served at her local parish as the person that everyone would call, or not call, she would just show up.

in the [00:52:00] darkest moments of their life. So when a child died unexpectedly in the community, this woman, her Anita, Anita was her name, she would show up with pie. And oftentimes she was the only person who could sit in a room and help grieving parents make it through the day. She was oftentimes the only person who could walk into a room of someone who just lost a parent and help them feel understood and not alone in the world.

And so when she died, I mean, she was farm girl. Indiana, she did all the hidden things you do in a church, like clean the toilets and pick up the flyers on the floor and all the hidden stuff, turn the lights on, everything, nobody, you know, there's nothing visible about her. When she died, the entire county came out for a funeral.

Because at some point or another, they went through something difficult, and she showed up with Pi, and the kind of understanding that only comes from someone who drew meaning from their suffering. And it's like, the thing that she most wished never happened, has become her greatest gift to love people.

And that's [00:53:00] possible for literally anyone. Everyone, like literally everybody listening to this podcast right now, no matter the scale of the difficult thing that you've been through, it can become your superpower to love other people and to uplift other people. And the only person who gets to determine whether or not that's the case, like, is you.

It is you. 100%. It's you.

Joey: So good. I love it. And I, I think that that's a great place to end on. But before we do, I just want to ask about, um, yeah, I know you offer mentorship. So please tell us a bit about that. Like what it is that you offer and how people can find you online.

Jack: Yeah, absolutely. So you can, you can find me, you can find me in two places.

You can find me at Jack beers dot com or you can find me at the catholic mentor dot com. Jack beers dot com is a place for one on one, a group coaching. Uh, it's really meant for me to walk with you in, in a short season of your life, usually about six weeks. Uh, and I run people through a program called Rise, and it's really a system of self awareness and, and deepening your self awareness.

The [00:54:00] phrase I usually say is, um, know thyself so you can give thyself. So it's, it's sort of a six weeks program. six week boot camp with one on one coaching mixed into it, and you can find that in both sites in both places. If you're looking for specifically Catholic accompaniment, that's why you go to thecatholicmentor.

com, and that's a, that's a form of daily accompaniment, really an elevation of Catholic psychology. Spirituality and anthropology to help you kind of face the storms in your life and draw meaning from them

Joey: so good to truly be that guide. And man, I've learned a lot from you, even in this interview. So I can only imagine how helpful that mentorship would be.

And so I definitely encourage you guys to it. At least check that out, um, you'll learn more about it, get some information about what it would look like to, to work with Jack. Um, but Jack, just want to say, thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing your wisdom and your story with us. Um, I know we're all better for it.

And just in closing, just want to give you the final word, what final advice, encouragement would you leave to everyone [00:55:00] listening right now before we sign off?

Jack: Well, thank you, Joey. Uh, we've only gotten to know each other a little bit and I feel so blessed by you already. So I look forward to, to our relationship to deepen as well.

Joey: Likewise.

Jack: Last word is, uh, you can do hard things. You were made to do hard things, and you will become a shadow of who you could be if you don't.

Joey: There's so much that we discussed in this episode that it can be pretty easy to feel kind of overwhelmed by it all. And so my challenge to you is this, what's just one thing that really resonated with you in this conversation?

Just take action on that one thing today or this week. Make a simple plan to just act on that, whatever that looks like. Um, that's it. That's all you have to do. And so if you want to relisten to maybe figure out what the one thing is, feel free. But if you know it, just make a plan, take action on that one thing.

And I promise you, if you stay with it, you're going to get some results in your life. And if you come from a divorce or broken family, or, you know, someone who maybe does come from a divorce or broken family, We offer more [00:56:00] resources at Restore than just this podcast. Uh, those resources include things like a book, uh, free video courses.

They're free now. We might change that in the future. Um, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and built virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better. life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself, or maybe someone that, you know, just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken marriage, uh, feel free to share this podcast with them. Feel free to even text them now, uh, to say, Hey, you know, I listened to this.

I thought of you thought it might be helpful. I promise you, even if they don't maybe say it, they're going to be very grateful for you sharing it with them. I wish someone had done that for me years ago. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can [00:57:00] start where you are and change the ending.

#122: What Caused So Many Broken Marriages & Families? | Dr. John Bishop, PhD

With so many marriages and families falling apart, the natural question is: What has caused all these broken marriages and families?

In this episode, Dr. John Bishop unveils the surprising root cause, plus:

• The crisis of masculinity facing our world right now

• The proper place of happiness within marriage

• An awesome digital hack to protect yourself and your relationships

MyForge.org

DakotaLaneFitness.com

Fight the new drug

View Restored’s Resources

Buy Jason Evert’s booklet, Pure Intimacy

Buy Jason Evert’s talk, Green Sex

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

[00:00:00] With so many marriages and families falling apart, the natural question to ask is, what caused all of this? What caused all of these broken marriages and families? And that's what we discuss in this episode. I'm joined by Dr. John Bishop, who unveils the really surprising truth about what caused all these problems.

Plus, we discuss things like the crisis of masculinity facing our world right now, the proper place of happiness, where within marriage, an awesome digital hack that he offers to protect yourself and your family and your relationships. And finally, a new resource for married men. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can break free.

The Cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 122. We're so [00:01:00] thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard a lot of great feedback. One listener said this, I just finished listening to episode 33 where you discussed in depth that meta analysis study on children of divorce.

You did a great job explaining the contents of that study. I'm looking forward to listening to the other episodes as well. Again, we're super happy to hear that the podcast has been not only helpful, but even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out or eating healthy or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, Then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, a 75 year olds and people who've never even set foot in a gym. Before Dakota builds a customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But [00:02:00] what makes Dakota unique? There's so many fitness and nutrition coaches out there. What makes Dakota unique? I want to mention three things. One, He's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped dude, uh, but he's also a good, virtuous man who's not just obsessed with his looks. Second thing I'd say is he, he studied actually to become a priest for a little while, and through that experience and his time at Franciscan University of Steubenville and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that, uh, to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life, and neglecting the rest, like your body.

We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free. And Dakota's mission really is to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way they were made to be treated, not just to get ripped and to look good on the beach or something like that.

And so, um, if you desire freedom, if you desire transforming your body and your life, Dakota can help you. One client said this, Dakota Lane changed my life. Then the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth [00:03:00] every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so to, to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have experienced, just go to dakota lane fitness.com. Dakota lane fitness.com, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Dr. John Bishop. I'm really excited for you guys to hear from him.

John started his professional career working at the Fellowship of Catholic University Students called FOCUS. During his tenure with FOCUS, John served as a campus missionary, and he compiled and wrote a variety of resources and even taught On a variety of topics as well. He oversaw several departments at focuses, uh, international headquarters, but is best known for co founding and scaling the focus summer projects and intensive collegiate summer formation program.

And while working at focus, John earned his doctorate from the Catholic university of America, writing his dissertation on the nature of masculine virtue. Super interesting. Uh, and inspired by the thought of John [00:04:00] Paul, the second John is now fighting for men and for the family as the founder and executive director of forge, which.

which you'll hear about in this episode. John lives in Des Moines, Iowa, with his wife, Caitlin, and their three children. Before jumping in, I just want to say that we do talk about God and faith in this episode. And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. This is not a strictly religious podcast.

Anyone who's been listening to this for a while knows that. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. I just want to issue a challenge to you. If you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you're to take out or skip the God part, you're still going to benefit from this The other thing I wanted to say is if you happen to have kids around, um, this might be a good episode to put earphones in because we do talk about some mature topics.

But with that, here's my conversation with Dr. John. John, so good to have you on the show. Welcome. I'm so excited to hear about the work that you're doing and what you offer to help marriages and men and families and all that. But I wanted to start with the problem. And so I'm curious, what are the main problems that married couples are facing today?

Yeah. So, [00:05:00] I think that a lot of the problems facing married couples facing families today can be encapsulated as what you might call the difficulties brought about by the revolutions, I say. So if we were to consider the industrial revolution, the sexual revolution, and now what you might call the digital revolution, we've got a whole host of problems that have been brought to the doorstep of the family, to the doorstep of every marriage.

That is existing in the 21st century, particularly in developed countries, and I think the collective effect of those revolutions is to take a whole picture of marriage and family that was that was previously very united, a way of being that was steeped in tradition that was interconnected across generations, um, that had a certain integrity to it, especially when it comes to sexuality.

That whole image was kind of torn apart, um, over the course of, of a couple of generations. And so the industrial revolution takes, you know, various generations of families, and you've got then grandfathers living in one part [00:06:00] of the country, children living in another part of the country, you know, grandchildren still living in a third, commutes coming in and, and, and people spending large portions of their days, you know, at, uh, in different places, um, you got to the sexual revolution and the ecosystem.

That we related to one another in sexually that constituted the foundation of many people's, uh, way of being when it comes to, um, to culture and to society at large. All that's rent us under. And now the latest thing just in the last couple of decades is what you might call the digital revolution. Okay.

So you've got, uh, the distraction, just to name one example of phones, the, the whole digital way of living that whether in professional context or a personal context, people relate in. All of these things together, industrial revolution, digital revolution, sexual revolution, taking that fabric of the family and tearing it apart.

And so if I was to say concisely, what are the problems facing the family today, I would say it's the [00:07:00] problem of the revolutions. Now I think that that set of problems has a particularly catastrophic effect on men, particularly on a man's ability to be a committed husband and father, and it's to that set of problems that that forge the organization I run, um, responds most especially.

Love that. No, so good. And I love how you edit the digital revolution. I haven't really heard people talk much about that. Of course, we hear about the industrial and the sexual revolutions, but that's fascinating. One of the things, just kind of a side note I love about you, I remember when we were texting recently to kind of set up this interview, you mentioned like, Hey, I'm shutting my phone down for the night.

And I was like, that's amazing. Talk about that for a second. What's that habit that you guys have? Well, like, Perhaps many of our listeners today, I am hopelessly addicted to the nicotine that is pumping out of my iPhone. And I, uh, I've not made the jump and, you know, gone to a dumb phone, although I applaud the people who do.

Props to you. I've, I've not taken the [00:08:00] leap myself, but my wife and I have made the decision at different points in our marriage and with a renewed fervor in the last six months to have portions of our day that are basically technology free and the, and the biggest. Kind of threat I take when it comes to technology is is the threat of an iPhone and my wife has an eyewatch.

But what we'll do it's a pretty simple system. We have an old shoe box that sits in a coat closet right by our front door. Okay. And sits on the top shelf. There's no lock on it or anything like that. It's a cardboard box so you can, you can. grab whatever's in it pretty easily, but you do have to go through the intentional act of getting whatever's inside it.

And from 515, which is about the time when I'm, I'm wrapping up work every day through to when our toddlers go down to bed. So about seven 30, we'll just go no, no technology whatsoever in our home. Now we do a similar thing on Sundays as well, so that there is some time where. Our family is interacting with one another.

That's sacred space, which is [00:09:00] our vocations. Um, that the center, uh, gosh, just the most intimate part of our lives is not kind of impinged upon by the, by the trillion dollar industry, you know, which is contemporary technology. I mean, if you think about it, anytime that you, you have an iPhone or, or any other device of that nature in your sphere, there is literally a billion trillion dollar industry that is bent on getting in contact with you.

So you shouldn't be surprised when that trillion dollar industry threatens. Your ability to have a good conversation with your wife, your ability to have a meaningful interaction with your child. And I think that, um, you know, it's really just something that everyone should consider, you know, just having periods of time set aside where you've got, you've got no technology, at least in the modern sense.

Now, somebody might ask when you hear about these policies, what, what if somebody absolutely has to get ahold of you? Well, I've got another tip for that. So something my wife and I have also done. Get a landline. So it's, it's been one of the most freeing things for us is, uh, take a, [00:10:00] you know, a time warp, you know, go, go back to the days of the Neanderthals, um, get a landline and we have, uh, you know, maybe, maybe a dozen people in our lives, some, some close friends and my parents, um, back before I founded my own ministry that, uh, my direct supervisors at work, they all had the numbers for those landlines.

Uh, so that if, if you absolutely need to get ahold of me, There's still the option there, right? But you got to call that number, you know, it's got to be a pretty intentional thing. And so I think in, in a couple of years of having that landline, there was like three calls, you know, over the course of that whole time that actually got through.

So anyway, that's how we approach it. So a lot, a lot of different and wonderful ways to approach technology. No, I love it. And I'm sure there's a lot of barriers that people. We'll think of, you know, when it comes to like doing some sort of routine like that, which I love, I want to talk to my wife about doing it because recently after texting you and you saying that I realized like, my goodness, there's so many moments, even though we're pretty good with it, there's so many moments where like, you know, you're on your phone and you know, my daughter's like standing right there.

It's like, uh, I don't want to be doing that. And [00:11:00] so no, I love that. And one of the things too, like for me, my brain always puts up different barriers. Like I mentioned that my people might be thinking of, and like one of them is like, I'm like, I have such a restless mind. Like I'm always having new ideas and thoughts and things that I need to like, get into some system, otherwise I'll just forget them.

And so the, one of the things I realized early on is like pen and paper, it's like, you can just like have that next to your bed, couch or wherever and write that down and then later you put that into, you know, your phone or your task system or whatever. And so I think there are like a lot of great solutions, you know, at the alarm solution too.

It's like, well, Buy an alarm clock. I mean, not really rolling the clock back that far, but just rolling it back 20, 30 years, uh, really ups your game in terms of your freedom to focus on the relationships that are in your presence at any given moment. And so little step that we've decided to take, and it's been generally a good thing.

We practice it very imperfectly. Yeah, no, I mean, even doing it imperfectly. And I've even seen like the most disciplined people that I know they might only succeed at their. discipline like 80 to 90 percent of [00:12:00] the time, but that's still a win. You know, if you hit a baseball 80 to 90 percent of the time, you're like unheard of.

So I think it's a, it's an incredible thing. No, so good. And so much more, I'm sure we can say about that, but I appreciate like your example and just wanted to applaud that. Going back to this whole, you know, discussion of like the problems that are facing marriages today. I think one of them is that there's so many lies when it comes to lies about love.

And so I'm just curious, kind of, what are some of the poisons, or what are some of the lies that are poisoning marriages when it comes to love? Yeah, Joey, when I think about lies poisoning marriage today, I think, gosh, what comes to mind for me is the notion of the language of the body. All right. So some of our listeners may have heard of this, some of them may have not heard of it, but the idea of the language of the body is that the body is designed in a certain way so as to speak a language.

Okay. So for example, you can't do something with your body and have it mean just anything, you know, now some things you can. So like, for example, the language, which is [00:13:00] sign languages. Entirely contrived and we could make a new symbol that would mean whatever. Well, we want it to mean, okay? But there are some things when they're done with the body that that means something very specific and it would it would be difficult To change the meaning of those things at least drastically across time and place, right?

So like for example, if I was to you know, reach through the cybersphere right now, you know and punch you in the nose Joey, it would be very difficult for me to convince you that that means I love you Right. And, you know, in the same way, the things that we do with our bodies sexually express a certain thing, you know, and so, for example, you know, the sexual act expresses a certain degree of commitment, right?

Because after all, in the natural, I keep using the word ecosystem today. It must be the word of the day in the natural ecosystem of sexuality. There is at least some relation between sexuality and children, right? So to engage in sexuality in an entirely casual switching partners all of the time type of fashion can cause a kind of confusing effect on the body because, well, after all, our psychology isn't [00:14:00] developed so as to interact with one another in that way, all right?

Now, When people ask me, and I, I'm going to give a little bit of a, an old take here, but simultaneously a hot take when people ask me, what are some of the most difficult effects that are facing marriages today? If I had to pick one, I would pick contraception. I would say that In the sexual ecosystem, running with this analogy a little bit more, if there's any core thing that is brought about a destabilization of our sexual culture at large, and also of our individual relationships with one another, I think it's the effect of contraception.

You know, and I've, it's interesting, I've actually found religious or non religious, more millennials and Gen Z folks who are entirely amenable to this position. So like, for example, I was in a production studio four or five months ago with a couple of artists who were basically running the tech and the sound in the studio, entirely non religious people.

And, One of these men had decided to throw contraception out of [00:15:00] his marriage because he felt as though he was basically introducing something that was unnatural into this very intimate relationship that he had with his wife. So his, he and his wife had, had started using Natural methods of either pursuing or avoiding pregnancy in their relationship and he spoke about what a wonderful effect it had had on his specific relationship with his wife as if everything had become to some extent more authentic, you know, so thinking of this idea of the language of the body that the way in which he spoke to his wife sort of spoke to her physically had been greatly enhanced by doing things in a more natural way.

I've heard people use the term green sex before, so that's individual relationships, but then society at large, when I think of the sexual revolution and the destabilization of marriage and family that's happened over the course of the last two, three generations, that destabilization was largely brought about, or at least fanned into flame by the advent of the pill of contraception.

And I, I don't think we [00:16:00] would have many of the problems that we have in the family today were it not for contraception. I totally agree with you. I, you know, contraception led to an increase in abortion, obviously. And then it led to the problem that we honestly are facing in my apostle, which is divorce, right?

Broken families, just how You know, along with the contraceptive mentality kind of elevated the feelings and the happiness quote unquote of the adults over anything else, really. And so if I was happier running off with this other woman, even though I made a commitment to my spouse, if that was what was going to make me happy, then I should just go ahead and do that, even if it left so much damage in my wake.

And I think that kind of contraceptive mentality has just plagued our society in so many ways. I think that's right. Yeah, it's taken a very intimate part of our beings as humans, that is the sexual dimension of our beings, um, a dimension that is ultimately oriented towards making a gift of oneself, and which involves a kind of submission to the natural order, you know, that, that God imbued in the universe, and kind of [00:17:00] flips it on its head, right, where, where sex becomes not gift, but take, and where the orientation that we bring into sexuality, or our approach to it, maybe to use a better term, um, doesn't assent to the natural, but rather sets itself up against nature, you know?

And I just think that has all kinds of primary, secondary, tertiary negative effects across human psychology, that, uh, we really work destruction on ourselves, on our own ability to be sexually satisfied even. when we introduce that kind of toxin, that kind of unnatural elements into a very delicate ecosystem.

So good. I couldn't agree more. I remember seeing a secular headline saying like, talking about pornography, it was saying like, porn is ruining sex for everyone. You know, we're facing like so many problems now with people, you know, with erectile dysfunction, like all sorts of issues that, you know, stem from, again, this kind of, like you're saying, this warped.

version of sexuality that we sometimes think of as liberty, but in the end, it's not really making us more free. It's actually enslaving us to something [00:18:00] that we never really wanted or desired in the first place. Yeah, pornography is a great example. And you know, I was talking to somebody who runs pornography recovery groups earlier this morning.

And, uh, I'm preparing in a few weeks now for my own apostolate to launch similar groups. You know, porn might be kind of the, if contraception is at the root of the stream, like pornography might be where the stream of our sexual dysfunction kind of bottoms out, where, uh, you have another instance of inauthenticity.

Sexual inauthenticity being consumed on a regular basis and rendering people less able to be sexually authentic, right? I mean, is there any greater contradiction to this idea of the language of the body than relating to the pixels on a computer screen? Right? Or on an iPhone screen that pornography warps us so easily.

And I want to point out something there, you know, the word warp, I think is exactly correct that our sexual preferences, our ability to sexually relate to an actual real human being are deeply warped by [00:19:00] pornography. I had an intimate series of conversations with a number of people who, uh, were more or less struggling with same sex attraction who had no difficulties with same sex attraction whatsoever.

prior to starting to use pornography. And the allure of heterosexual porn couldn't really satisfy them, so to speak, anymore. So then they kind of just kept moving to, you know, another form of novelty, you know, down the line of the pornographic train and found themselves with a very, an even more distorted view of sexuality than when they began.

And I can't help but think that pornography is sort of the bridge, the gateway drug to so many sexual manipulations. You know, in so many people, both of their own psychology, you know, the sexual abuse that comes about as a result of pornography and so many other disheartening things. So yeah, fight the new drug.

If you haven't been to the website go, um, and fight the new drug. org and wake up to the fact that, yeah, it's, It'll be difficult to get off pornography if you're in any way connected to it, but it's a fight worth fighting. [00:20:00] The best way I've heard it said from fight the new drug and people like Jason Everett and Matt Fradd is that, you know, porn porn just destroys your ability to love because it just teaches you to use people.

And there's no way you can build an authentic relationship built on real love. If all you're looking is to just use someone for your own gratification. And so. That's a big topic. I'm sure we could go much deeper there, but I'm just curious if there are any other, um, maybe lies around marriage that you've seen really destroy marriages.

And I wanted to offer one, um, if that's okay, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. And that is, yeah, just believing that like the purpose of marriage is happiness. Because I think so often in our culture, we see it as like this vehicle, this tool, this way of becoming like happier. And what I've seen, you know, what I've learned is like the purpose of marriage is not happiness.

The purpose of marriage is holiness. You know, there's nothing in the marriage vows that actually, the traditional marriage vows that promise happiness. And I know that sounds super unromantic, but I think it's so important because what I've seen, especially in doing this work, is like, you know, Underneath almost every divorce is [00:21:00] this, you know, belief, conscious or not, that, you know, we expect our spouse to make us perfectly happy.

And if they don't, then we might think, man, maybe I've married the wrong spouse, or maybe I even like, you know, pick the wrong vocation or whatever. And we might even be tempted to leave. And many people do. Um, and so I think that's one thing that I think we need to get back to is that it's not just, meant to be this like walk in the park, this easy thing, it's meant to be something that is going to make us the best version of ourselves, so to speak, is meant to make us, um, holy.

And it's meant to help us to, you know, uproot the vices that we have and to replace those with virtues and so many other things. But I think, um, it's really freeing actually to hear that because then, you know, okay, my marriage is not just subject to the whims of my feelings or, you know, my quote unquote happiness.

It's really, there's this greater purpose and this greater goal in all of it. Yeah, I love what you said. I'm going to play with that for a little bit and tell me what you think of this. So on the one hand, you might say that it would be a mistake to enter a marriage if your idea of marriage is just to make you more happy in some shallow sense of [00:22:00] happiness, you know?

So like, for example, I will enter into this marriage because I, I really enjoy going on trips with this person, you know, or I love the way that our tastes compliment one another, you know, or, or whatever it is that understanding of happiness, which is, I think, unfortunately, the view of happiness that a lot of millennials, Gen Z's, even baby boomers before us took into marriage is, is the attitude that brought about so many broken families.

Now, ultimately, I do think that marriage serves a purpose of making people more happy. But I want to say this, and this is really just kind of what I'd love for you to try and precise, um, the purpose of marriage is not happiness. The purpose of marriage is to explode your idea of happiness. All right. So it's like, look, I am convicted that anybody who enters into marriage and is married for longer than 20 minutes will suffer to a degree that they could not have possibly anticipated.

So it's like, no matter how experienced you are, when it comes to your understanding of marriage, if you've got [00:23:00] a doctorate in psychology and another doctorate in theology, and you love John Paul II and you're just all about marriage and you've, you know, you've dated the person well and whatever, I don't care.

Marriage is going to break you. That's how that's going to go. Almost no matter what that is, that you will hit points in your marriage that will bring you to your knees. It will be so hard, but that difficulty will open up your interiority, open up your spirit to entire vistas of happiness that were previously unavailable to you.

So, it's like, I think one of the things that makes marriage so brilliant is that it takes place till death do you part. That is when couples sign up to get married, they could not possibly have an idea ultimately of what their marriage is going to look like 20 years later. Nevertheless, you're committed to somebody and something psychologically happens for people when you, you start, you know, I've only been married for five years, so not a very long period of time in relation to a lot of people [00:24:00] who.

have much more business talking about this topic than either of us do. Um, but something kind of settles into like the way that you love somebody when the years keep passing by. And there's a way in which the suffering gets more heavy. I guess you could say, I don't really, I don't know that I like that term, but the suffering gets at least more real, but simultaneously your vanities die.

Um, your ability to Actually understand a person and accept them for all of the different facets of their being is heightened beyond measure in a way that it could never be heightened if there was even the smallest bit of openness, openness to ending the relationship, you know, it's like when people say that they, you know, yeah, we've been married for seven years, but you know, we're open to it ending someday.

What I want to say to them is, well, actually, you haven't been married for even a single minute. Because you haven't been married at all until you've been married till death do you part. Because there's, there's, there's a, there's a threshold that you cross over when you enter into that kind of commitment that actually sets you free to love a [00:25:00] person in the way that only their spouse can love them.

That is only the way that somebody who's committed until death to you apart, no matter what can love them. And so sure, like, I suppose people shouldn't enter marriage to quote, be happy. That is if they have a false shallow understanding of happiness, but if they want to have. A much deeper understanding of happiness that is if you want your vision of happiness to be exploded into something so much better than it actually is now, then get married because you don't know what marriage is going to be.

There's no way to perfectly prepare, but your vision of happiness will be exploded and deepened. So good. No, I love that. And I love that distinction between like the shallow sense of happiness and this, you know, deeper sense of happiness because I totally agree with you when I talk about happiness when I give talks on this topic or, you know, talk about the lie that we're often fed that, you know, the purpose of marriage is happiness.

I am thinking more of like that shallow sense of kind of gratification or comfort or pleasure or something that again is more fleeting. And, you know, it's just kind of meant to give us some sort of a high. Okay. [00:26:00] Um, and, and we certainly would say, you know, that's not the purpose of marriage, but I love that you're refocusing in this, that, you know, there is such a deeper sense of joy, fulfillment, satisfaction.

I don't know what other words you would use, um, that can result from this continual process, like you said, of, you know, suffering. And then growing suffering and growing and it's really analogous to working out. Um, I don't, you know, I hope this analogy is okay for people, but you know, the process of working out of making your body stronger is literally you need to suffer to break, like literally, you know, on the muscular level, your muscles are like, being pulled apart, like destroyed, so to speak.

I'm not a scientist, but this is why it didn't explain to me. And then afterward, the recovery is actually what makes you stronger. And so I think when it comes to marriage, totally, like I know, you know, for us, there's been really difficult seasons already in our marriage. We've been married about six years, you know, Basically it may as long as you guys and um, there's been some difficult trying times, but then at the end of that tunnel, if we work through it and stick with it, which gets to your [00:27:00] point of like being, having that commitment to stick with it, there's something that is much more beautiful at the end of it.

And I think a lot of people call it quits before they get to experience that. I think that's right. I think a lot of people call it quits before they experience the real goodness of marriage. You know, the high, the honeymoon high is so fleeting, but the real good of it is much better than the honeymoon.

And it only comes with a little bit of time. In my experience, I'm looking forward to, I have the grace. My parents have been married for coming up on 40 years now, and I had Thanksgiving dinner with my mom and dad. We hosted this year. They and my siblings all came over for Thanksgiving dinner, and at Thanksgiving dinner, we did the typical thing.

We went around the table and said what we were thankful for. Okay, and we got to my parents, my mom and my dad, who've had difficulties in their marriage of many different sorts. But they looked at one another and they both started bawling their eyes out and just kind of at just out of the blue saying what they were thankful for.

And my dad looking at my mom, this is, this is not exaggerated even a little bit. My dad looking at my mom said, [00:28:00] I can't tell you how happy I am to be married to you. And, you know, in front of all of his children and grandchildren and everything, and my mom looked right back at him and said the same thing.

And then my dad said, I feel like in the last three years of our marriage, we've become more happy than we've ever been before. And if you think about that, like that would mean, so they've been married like 39 years now. That would mean that around marriage, you know, year number 36, they started to descend into this whole nother, they had a happy marriage before that already, but a great marriage pretty much all the way through with some really notable difficulties.

But around year 36, they hit this spot of like a whole new level of depth as if the bottom had fallen out to a level of meaning that they hadn't previously had access to. That's the kind of happiness that marriage can bring you, but it's very different than the kind of happiness that you were rightly shining a light on before.

Wow. No, so beautiful. And I'd love to go deeper a little bit into that because the people listening right now, So often haven't seen that example of what a beautiful, healthy marriage looks like, not a perfect one. And so talk me through a [00:29:00] little bit of that. Like maybe what were some of like the lessons or takeaways that you have witnessing your parents marriage over the years?

Gosh, I look forward someday to speaking with you about this for seven hours. So let me try and say some concise things now. Here are a few things. My dad never stopped pursuing my mom. I don't think he ever did. I think he was always after her. Even though he'd already won her heart, you know, they're sleeping together every night.

They're, they're married. They're got a bunch of kids, whatever, but they were always doing things for one another that were sort of romantic, you know, just going after it. Like I remember there were a few years where my dad's business kind of fell apart. And so money was really tight in the house. And I remember there was this anniversary.

And my mom kind of got us kids together, and the older ones of us knew this, though she didn't say it, that they didn't have money to go out to eat. And so what my mom did is, uh, she had all of us, some [00:30:00] of us young boys, we dressed up in suits. So we had, we had suits and ties on, and we set the, the dinner table just kind of like in a nicer way and put candles out and everything.

And mom made this like really nice dinner for dad. And then by the time he got home, most of the kids were upstairs like watching a movie, but me and one of my brothers, we were downstairs and our job was to kind of like, you know, in a sort of showy way, like bring the food out and put it down there wearing suits for mom and dad.

And so they did stuff like that for one another. Um, In the midst of the difficulty. I mean, I think that story is particularly good because, you know, I think the deepening of married love oftentimes involves a simultaneous mix of bliss and excruciating suffering. And it's the cocktail of those two things that makes for real happiness.

So you've got something particularly bad going on, like you're broke or whatever your thing is, and you, you sprinkle in the midst of that a little bit of good cheap romance, you know, the kind that you can come up with, you know, uh, on a Costco bottle of wine and [00:31:00] about, you know, box of mac and cheese or something like that, you know, like you, you have those two things together.

And I think that makes for something really good, you know, as the years go on. So that's just one thought. you know, that comes to mind. Uh, men, there's so much we've covered and so much I want to cover with you, but I was just curious if there's anything else you would add when we're talking about this problem that, uh, you know, problems that are facing marriages today, uh, specifically when it comes to men, you know, we've already talked a bit about pornography and some of the other things like contraception, but just curious if there's anything you'd add when it comes to the problems men in marriage are facing.

Yeah. So the issues that have faced humanity when it comes to the sexual revolution in particular have had the effect of. Crippling marriages in general, but crippling men in particular. All right. So if you examine particularly the last two generations of men when it comes to interest in marriage and interest in family, there has been a sharp precipitous decline in the number of men who want to be married that far outstrips their feminine counterparts.[00:32:00]

All right, so the number of particularly religious women who find themselves climbing the ladder of their twenties, thirties and forties and completely unable to find a man who's willing to be their partner is very high in this day and age, and I appreciate it. You know, I read a great sociologist on this.

Um, he wrote a book called The Decline of Males. Um, he's got kind of an unfortunate name. His name is Lionel, L I N E L, Tiger. Uh, he's an evolutionary sociologist at Rutgers University. Anyway, Dr. Tiger, who wrote this book, Decline of Males, again, a non religious person himself, said that the chief cause contributing to the decline of men in our society is the advent of contraception.

Because what it, what it effectively did to men was, um, take an already kind of tenuous connection that men felt with their children. I mean, throughout the whole course of human history, it's been more difficult to get men to commit to their children than it is to get women to commit to their children.

I mean, think about it. Women, you know, after conceiving a child, they bear the child [00:33:00] in their room for nine months. They oftentimes then feed the child at their breasts. And so there's a connection that is forged there. Universally for women, that is not the same for men. And so the great kind of task oftentimes of culture is getting men to be more than mere reproducers, but to be husbands and to be fathers.

That is to be committed to their families, right? And the way in which contraception has made sex so readily available, both in contraceptive sex period, but then in all of the things that contraception has brought forth, not least of which is pornography. Has made men relatively less interested in sexuality.

There are a lot of other deeper things at play too. When you think, for example, of, you know, in a society that is marked by largely licentious sexual practices, the ability of a man even to know, you know, if a child is his or not, you know, prior to modern paternity tests, drastically declines. And so that already weak link between a father and a child is gone.

So this one author, for example, says that in the, in the modern culture, in the modern [00:34:00] state. The holy trinity of time gone by, that is the holy trinity of a husband, a wife, and a child has now in the contemporary sexual culture been replaced by a new trinity, which is a mother, a child, and ordinarily a bureaucrat, you know, or a, or a welfare handout or any of the modern day kind of stand ins for the father.

And so. Forge, the organization that I run, leans in a particular way in giving men guidance to become great husbands and fathers, and that emphasis on men is not chauvinism. It's actually recognizing a kind of weakness that men, particularly contemporary men, have. And the need for guidance, you know, I, I think in the midst of that too, when you throw in the fact that a lot of the, the cultural things which traditionally guided young boys to become great men, those things have been replaced by, for example, the idea of toxic masculinity has had the effect of leaving boys pretty lost.

You know, whereas previous cultures gave young men a guide for what it looked [00:35:00] like to walk the path towards authentic masculinity of taking boys to men, that guide has been replaced with a question mark that we've given young boys really just confusion now about what it means to be male, about what it means to be masculine.

And they want answers. If they don't find answers from good, wholesome sources like educational systems or like churches, then young boys will look for answers about masculinity in other places like YouTube or, or God forbid, like the streets, which is why I think, for example, you see like an influx in gangs.

You see an influx in what I take to be some toxic male personalities like Andrew Tate. Because young boys are not getting wholesome masculinity, positive masculinity from the places that previously gave it, they're, they're kind of being forced to look for it in the gutters. And so you have the, the crisis of men, the crisis of masculinity brought about by something which was supposed to make us more free, the sexual revolution, but which indeed.

Introduce a kind of chaos and a new, more sinister kind of slavery. No, I couldn't agree with you more. And especially looking [00:36:00] at boys, like, I think anyone could recognize how much of a problem we're facing there. And what I've seen too, is that, you know, as a boy, like when you're growing up, you know, early teen years, especially, um, you're trying to develop your strength, right?

You're hopefully looking to become this like strong man. And that's even gone amiss in so many ways. Like we're not even looking to develop boys into strong men. Um, or boys might not even see that as some sort of a goal, but of course that is the goal. It's like to develop a strength so that then we can offer, and that's the other side of the coin that I've seen.

And so you're right, if we, you know, don't have someone who's helping us develop that strength, not just the physical strength, but the moral strength, the interior strength, it's becoming more virtuous, all those things, and we don't have a clear outlet, a place to offer our strength, then yeah, it's just going to turn into just disastrous, um, just lead us down disastrous routes.

And it's so interesting to see how You mentioned the streets, uh, it's kind of fascinating to think how gang leaders, uh, you could probably throw in cartel leaders, terrorist leaders, whoever, are often some of the most, like, effective leaders, especially when [00:37:00] it comes to men, because they, they breathe, like, this purpose into their existence, they help them to channel that strength into something, whether it's good or bad, And for men, it's like, yeah, you're speaking my language.

Like I need, I need to do something with my strength. And so, yeah, you hit the nail on the head so well. And I'm sure there's so much more you could say before we move on. I just want to give you a chance to come. Yeah. I think what you said about gang leaders is, is particularly appropriate. Young boys have male raw material across time and place, every society, except for the last couple of generations of Western societies, they've had actual things like initiation rights and now granted some of those initiation rights were bad.

All right, but let's set that aside for a moment across all times and places. There were channels that took that male energy, if you will, and did that just that channeled it into masculinity. All right, we don't have those today, but boys still want to be channeled. You know, no matter how loud the culture preaches to young boys that there's no such thing as masculinity, that's that it's a fiction or whatever it is.

That [00:38:00] doesn't change the fact that boys still want to be men. Whether you're willing to give them an image of masculinity or not, they still want to be men. And so when a gang leader, um, or a YouTube personality or a, some sort of public figure gives them an image of masculinity that they can latch onto, and even more so if they give them a kind of club, if you will, that affirms them in their masculinity, I mean, a literal gang to use your example, then, then they feel masculine all the more.

All right. And I, it's, it's this particular thing, not to, to kind of tout my own products here, if you will, that. That led the organization that I lead, we, we just recently released a course, you can find it on the homepage of our website, it's called Fathers and Sons, and uh, so if you go to myforge. org, M Y F O R G E.

org, you can see this course, and what it is, is it's a six part series that instructs fathers on the healthy sexual formation of their sons. Okay, so what does it look like, for example, in the absence of a father? Of, uh, you know, an initiation right of 1752, you know, time gone by, you know, but [00:39:00] to do the good thing that initiation rights previously did and give your son an image of masculinity that he can aspire towards, right?

What does it look like to talk to your son about sexuality before the world manipulates him? What does it look like to introduce your son into a community of men much better than you? Uh, the community of a gang that will at the same time affirm him in his masculinity so that he doesn't go look for that same affirmation elsewhere.

What does that look like? So my, my organization got together with groups of psychologists around the country to put a curriculum together. We just call it fathers and sons. Um, it's a six part series to help men transform their boys into. great husbands and fathers for the next generation. I love the focus on like, you know, making men strong so that they then can offer their strength to their wives, to their children, to society as a whole.

Because it's so interesting to me looking at like stories, for example, how, you know, often the difference between the hero and the villain is that the hero uses his strength for good. The villain uses his strength for bad. It's kind of a simplistic way of explaining it, but that's the [00:40:00] way that I see it.

Yeah. And so I think it's like, so good if we can, you know, help boys become men and, you know, step into those roles. So I want to hear a little bit more about your organization, if you would, in closing, like what solutions do you guys offer to all of these problems that we have talked about today? In addition to the course that you mentioned?

Yeah. So we're an organization that's fundamentally devoted to the family, but in our efforts to build up the family, we have a strategic emphasis on men. In our first two years of operations, so we're just four months old in our first two years of operations, we're focusing exclusively on men as we continue forward.

We'll also develop materials for women. What we do, we say we champion the good of the family, and then we evangelize by virtue of that flourishing. So we, uh, we do things like develop great resources, uh, facilitate empowering interpersonal mentorship. Um, so as to bring great families into the contemporary world, despite.

The revolutions like we said at the at the start of this episode the industrial [00:41:00] digital sexual revolutions all of which kind of tear at the fabric of the family we aim to reverse that trend okay so we're we're fundamentally an organization that seeks to inspire a movement of families that are fully alive we do a lot of our on the ground stuff virtually all of it at this point in Des Moines Iowa.

So we've got a lot of small groups of husbands and fathers going in Des Moines, future husbands and fathers going here in Des Moines, um, large events, you know, that we put together, uh, soon here we'll start sexual accountability groups, uh, we do mentorship between, we call it intergenerational mentorship, so between husbands and fathers of one generation in their 50s, mentoring men who are in their 20s, We do a lot of stuff like that.

Um, but we do have a growing national platform. So for example, if you go to our website, I think at present we have people doing our first course in over 30 cities. Uh, that is small groups of men, um, who have gotten online, bought our first course, say, Hey, I want to know what it looks like to develop a son who [00:42:00] is flourishing.

in the sexual dimension of his being. And I'd like to, you know, with another group of men, talk about what it looks like to raise that kind of son. So we say, and, and, and this is a lot of this is brought out. I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the crisis of men and masculinity in the church and in the culture.

And one of the things that I became deeply convicted about over the course of writing that dissertation was that the best of men are oftentimes not raised by a single man that is by a single father, if you will. Um, the best of men are raised by groups of men. So one of the best things that you can do to raise a great family, particularly to raise great sons, is to intentionally involve yourself in a group of like minded men who will be a voice for you.

In saying things that your son won't hear from your voice, okay, that he needs to hear from the voice of your friends, right? So, we developed the materials that we developed for the men's small group for that reason. Um, that we, we really don't think that individuals, marriages, or [00:43:00] families are meant to do the family, the marriage, the human flourishing thing on an island.

But are indeed meant to do it in the context of community. And so that's why, why we develop the resources in the way that we do. So hop on the website, my forge. org. Um, if you go to go to courses and content, um, we also have free materials, articles, podcasts, things of that nature as well, but you can also see the courses that we put out there.

Um, particularly our first course that is on the topic of raising sexually healthy sons, we will release two more courses in September. One of those courses is on the domestic church. So what does it mean to pass the faith from one generation to the next? And then finally, a course called Patriarchs, um, which is on the role of, of grandfathers in contemporary society.

Love that. And I, I think it's so, so inspiring. I know we probably don't have a lot of these type of people listening right now, but people who, older men, men who maybe feel like their time is kind of done. You know, they maybe built a business or they, you know, served in the military or did whatever with their life.

And then they reached this kind of like sage stage in masculinity. And they kind of think, well, kind of finished, you know, I'm not as [00:44:00] useful as I used to be, but I love what you're saying, especially on that last course about how no, this is actually the time in your life when you can have the greatest impact where it can be like the most fruitful.

And I just love that. I think that's so inspiring for so many reasons. So, so good. And John, I always love talking with you, man. And. You're always welcome back and we'll have to do another show, but, uh, yeah, just really appreciate you and everything that you're doing and appreciate you coming on the show.

And, uh, with that, I wanted to just give you the final word, like what final encouragement advice would you offer to everyone listening, especially our audience who, you know, comes from broken families, uh, when it comes to this topic of love of marriage of fatherhood and everything we've discussed. Just that Joey, I think you're right on the money and what you're doing and, and the people who are engaging your resources.

I think they're doing exactly the right thing. Um, there's an old Latin saying, and that translates to basically you can't give what you don't have. And I think that. You know, a lot of the work that I do when it comes to building up men, [00:45:00] marriages and families, we don't have a particular eye towards divorce or any of the things that you lean into specifically.

So many of the issues in parenting style can be fixed. By healing your own brokenness so much of what I think what my organization does is encourage people to take their own healing seriously so that that brokenness doesn't just keep going down the generations and so obviously the pain of divorce can wreak havoc.

That is so painful. I mean, obviously you speak quite a bit about that Joey and, um, could not highlight the value of your organization anymore. So for all the listeners, I was not paid to say that, but I, I think that, that this is such critically important work. So thank you for what you're doing. If you like that, if you want more from Dr.

John, I definitely recommend checking out his organization called the forge. Again, you can learn more about them at their website, my [00:46:00] forge. org again, my forge. org, or just click on the link in the show notes. If you want to learn more about natural family planning, the method John kind of mentioned in passing to achieve or avoid a pregnancy, two resources I would recommend from speaker and author Jason Everett.

The first is an audio talk called Green Sex. And if you're an audio person, this is a great way to learn more about this whole thing of natural family planning. If you're more of a reader, you can pick up his book. called pure intimacy. It's actually a booklet. It's a really short read. And so that's pure intimacy.

Um, especially if you're a reader, that's a good one for you. Again, you can get all that by clicking the links in the show notes to get the, the talk green sex or the booklet pure intimacy. Again, just click on the show notes if you want one of those. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include things like a book, video courses, speaking engagements, uh, free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help [00:47:00] you heal, from the trauma you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, you can go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents, divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. I promise you they will be very grateful. Feel free to even take 30 seconds now, if you want to share it with them.

In closing, always remember that you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending. [00:48:00]

#121: A Cure for Feeling Needy or Helpless | Margaret Vasquez

So many people from broken families struggle with feeling helpless or needy. Our efforts to heal or grow might even feel fruitless like tires spinning in mud that never gain traction. We put in effort in learning, but transformation isn’t happening. 

Whether that describes you or someone you know (like a friend, parent, or anyone else), this episode will help you!  In it, you’ll learn: 

• The simple solution to beat neediness and helplessness

• Why struggles are actually good for you

• The most important question you can ask to move beyond grief

Margaret’s Website

Dakota Lane Fitness

Buy Margaret’s Book: Fearless

Buy Margaret’s Book: Fearless

Buy Margaret’s Book: More Than Words

Get Margaret’s Course: Broken to Whole

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

[00:00:00] So many people like us who come from broken families struggle with feeling helpless and even needing, we might even feel like we're too much for the people around us and our efforts toward healing and growth might feel kind of fruitless. Like we're spinning our tires in mud, but we're never really getting anywhere.

Now, maybe that's not you, but maybe you know, someone who struggles in that area, a friend, a parent, a boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever, either way, this episode is going to help you in it. You're going to learn things like the simple solution to beat neediness and helplessness from a trauma therapist. Why struggles are actually good.

For you, what this looks like, if you have a disability, we answer the question, does grieving have a place? And the most important question that you can ask to move beyond grief. Again, if you've struggled with feeling like you're too much, feeling helpless, stuck or needy, or maybe you know someone who struggles in that way, this episode is for you.

It's for you. Stay with us.

 [00:01:00] Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 121. As we often say in the show, we're so happy that this podcast has been helpful and even healing for you.

We've heard so much great feedback. One listener said this. Only God knows where I would be if this ministry didn't exist. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out, eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach. We're going to Who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot in a [00:02:00] gym Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? Three things. One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy ripped dude. He's also a good virtuous man to not just caught up in his body and his looks to, he actually studied to become a priest for a little while.

And from that experience and his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body. We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free.

to love. And the third thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people, you know, get ripped, but to lead them to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this. [00:03:00] Dakota Lane changed my life, and the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have experienced, just go to DakotaLaneFitness. com or click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez. Margaret holds a bachelor's degree in theology and a master's degree in counseling, both from Franciscan University of Steubenville.

She is a licensed professional clinical counselor with supervisory designation, holds numerous trauma certifications, is certified in Myers Briggs, and is the founder and director of Sacred Heart Healing Ministries. For the past 18 years she has treated clients of all ages from all around the world.

She's appeared on numerous episodes of Women of Grace on EWTN as well as many radio shows and podcasts. She's the author of More Than Words, The Freedom to [00:04:00] Thrive After Trauma and Fearless, Abundant Life Through Infinite Love. She hosts the Wholeness and Holiness podcast, a weekly podcast on human and spiritual integration.

She provides healing missions. Uh, retreats, one week, uh, individual healing programs and intensive trauma therapy. Her passion is for all people to come to know the surpassing love of God. And lastly, she is the instructor of our video course at Restored called Broken to Whole Tactics to Heal from Your Parents Divorce.

And so if you're interested in that, I'll tell you more at the end, how you can get that it's free actually right now. It might change in the future, but I'll tell you more at the end of this episode. And by the way, in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that this is not a religious podcast. If you don't believe in God, I would just challenge you to listen with an open mind. Um, even if you're to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit so much from this episode. If you do have kids around, I recommend just maybe putting in some earphones because we do talk about some [00:05:00] mature topics in this episode.

And finally, we do jump back and forth a bit between the mental and emotional aspects of this problem of neediness, helplessness. Um, and so in my mind, those are distinct different things. Uh, but in this conversation, we kind of meld them together. And so when you hear the word mental, you can also think of the word emotional too.

With that, here's my conversation with Margaret. Margaret, welcome back. So good to have you. It's always great to be with you, Joey. I wanted to dive right in. There's, I think this temptation we all face, all of us when it comes to healing and growth, and that is that we consume information, right? We listen to podcasts, we read books, we attend retreats, all really good things to gain knowledge, but we never really take action on what we're learning.

Like we don't transform, we don't apply what we've learned. And it's kind of crass, but I've heard some people say that You know, it's kind of like a mental masturbation where we get this high from learning, but it doesn't really lead to much. And so two questions there, what's happening here and why do we do [00:06:00] that?

Actually, even though it is crass, I like that, that explanation because it doesn't bear fruit and it just creates like a lot of emotion. You know what I mean? So just a lot of emotion. There's a lot of feeling going on, but like there's no fruit the same as masturbation. So, so there is a, to me it, it kind of fits.

So what's going on there. I, I kind of look at it, like come from a number of places. I actually had a person, this person was actually a friend, not a client, but. Um, said to me, now had been through definitely painful growing up, painful childhood, but this person actually said, no, it's not fair for me to have to basically, she was talking about taking care of herself emotionally.

Um, nope, it's not fair. I deserve to have been taken care of by somebody else as a child. And so I'm not going to take care of me now. And I was just like shocked that anybody would actually say, we're, we're not friends anymore. It was not based on that. There was, there's more to it than that. But, but I just was like, wow, how astounding that [00:07:00] somebody would actually be cognizant of that.

And then just deciding like, no, it's not fair. And so I'm not going to do that. I think for some people, I like to think that for people, it, It can maybe even more often not be something that they're consciously aware of and maybe that they feel like they're, um, like they can't take care of themselves.

Like they're, you know, incapable. Maybe it's more of that. I, I like to think that because it's hard for, hard for me to think somebody just decides like to dig their heels in and refuse, you know, so then it leads to outsourcing that care of our emotional selves to other people because my, my My need for emotional self care isn't going to go away.

My own personal growth and responsibility and the need for that isn't going to go anywhere. And if I'm not taking care of it myself, then gonna intentionally or unintentionally kind of be approaching the world with kind of, um, I'd look at it like constantly job posting. Right. Here's my, here's my unpublished classified ad of like, are you my, are you [00:08:00] know, or the, the little kid book, right?

Are you my mommy? Do you remember that book? The little bird, the little bird falls out of his nest and he's walking through and he's asking like this big bulldozer, like, are you my mommy? And he's like walking through like the world. Are you my mommy? We kind of end up walking through the world kind of with this attitude, like, are you my mom?

Are you my dad? Will you take care of me? Sort of thing. If we're not doing it ourselves, because that, I look at it like that need for, for self care, for kind of, for parenting doesn't go away. Just when we hit 18 or move out of our parents homes or whatever, but it becomes incumbent on us to do that ourselves.

Of course, finding the right resources. And, and of course, all of this would be it from my perspective, relying on, on the Lord's help, but then it's kind of taking on the mind of Christ towards that care to be that need for love directed to him first. But then I have to, like, actually change my self talk to line up with his, because if I'm going, like, God make me feel [00:09:00] loved, but then my constant self talk is I'm terrible and everybody's better than me and, you know, God couldn't really love me because if you knew how I'm, all the different, you know, ways I'm terrible, like, you know, you'd understand.

So we just deflect his love, right? So we kind of go to him with this, this big bowl, asking him to fill it, and we have a lid on it. You know, or can kind of look at it like our, our metaphorical love bucket, and we're just poking holes in it. And so, you know, he's pouring Niagara Falls into it, but at the end of the day, it's still empty because of all the holes I've jabbed in it.

So then we still end up feeling empty. And so then we turn to, you know, the person who's right in front of us to get that need met. 100%. And I, I think one thing to add there too is like, you said this so well, there is a real need there. It's just a matter of like, how do you go about filling that need?

We're not like putting that down. We're not saying, you know, you don't need other people in your life. We're just saying the relationships just need to be healthy. Right. And we need to go to God first. And then from there, you know, we can experience the love [00:10:00] of other people and that could be incredibly healing.

Um, but if things are upside down, then it just becomes this, you said before this vicious cycle where there's a lot of. Motion or, you know, we never like gained ground basically, there's a lot of like movement, but never gaining any ground and I think not only is it frustrating for the people in your life around you who might be like trying to help you, but it's also frustrating for you because it's like, man, I just seem like just stuck like I got and I might be moving my feet a lot, but I'm never moving forward.

Yeah, and you know, I remember being in that spot like, you know, before I went through trauma therapy, actually, because I was just in such an emotionally needy spot. And I didn't really understand how these I feel like we don't get taught how these things fit together, you know, but I'm working on a book on that.

But, um, Without understanding how these things work together, um, on a very, uh, just kind of, just even visceral, like, level, like, feeling such a desperate need for love, like, kind of being in that, in that place, like that job posting thing. it ends up leading to rejection [00:11:00] because that, that neediness, right?

And then that becomes, and I think it leads to rejection because others have their hands full taking care of their own emotional selves and their lives, right? And so when we kind of have that feeling like somebody's trying to get from me what I'm, I'm busy over here doing it for myself. Like you do it for yourself too.

And like, it'll be fine. Then we can relate to each other like adults and from a place of peace instead of you're trying to get from me what Only the Lord can do for you. And then you need to really, um, really receive and, and take on and, and kind of do for yourself as well. If we're not doing that, right, if we're outsourcing that to someone else, they're kind of, whether they're cognizant of it or not, it kind of makes us feel like our insides are twisting, you know, and we're like, it's kind of an icky feeling.

And so we just kind of, we inadvertently like, Push that person away. And so then to the, being the person on that end, it's a feeling of rejection. And, and so I think the cycle is then the person becomes [00:12:00] that much more, they don't understand. That dynamic. Right. And so then they really internalize the way their behavior is being responded to as being essential to who they are.

Does that make sense? Like, I'm rejectable. I'm not lovable. I'm like, no, you're fine. Like, just don't do that. Like, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I think it really creates like a vicious cycle. No, I couldn't agree more. And I think the experience and we are like, we're empathizing with people who've been there.

Cause I've been there too, where you just feel this immense amount of need. Like you feel the real need underneath it all and you just take it to the wrong source. Like I've, I've done that, but I think this experience of feeling like you're too much, I've heard people say that a lot. Like, I feel like I'm just too much, like no one can really handle me.

There can then be that, like you said, that regression where it's like, well, this is just the way that I am. And other people aren't strong enough to handle my stuff. Therefore, I'm doomed to this life of loneliness and, you know, self pity and all this, all this stuff. That's really, it's depressing and sad.

And [00:13:00] again, I've been there. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be like that. I think just understanding how it works then is really a game changer because the way I see it is like. We each plug into the Lord first, and I don't mean first, like, okay, first, like, that, that box is checked, now moving on to time to plug into somebody else.

No, it's like, that's a foundational source. And if we do that and staying connected in that way. Now he's going to be able to supply all of those emotional needs like infinitely more than we could ask or imagine and even if we don't feel it in a warm fuzzy way all the time, right? But the more I begin to like align my way of seeing myself with how he sees myself.

he sees me, then like St. Thomas Aquinas says, what's received is received according to the mode of the receiver, right? So if my mode is, I'm not lovable, I can participate in whatever workshops or listen to whatever homilies or talks or teachings or read whatever self help books or whatever. [00:14:00] And I'm never going to come to a different way of seeing myself because my mode is, I'm not lovable.

So I'll just deflect everything else like, well, if you knew my past or if you knew this or if you knew that, or I'm not like other people who are special or whatever, you know, and so then we end up not receiving that stuff. I also, I also think there's a way I remember this myself, like when I was in that, More of that, you know, needy.

I hate that word because I was in that spot for so long. But when I was in that spot, like, I remember it seemed like there was, um, almost like a different species of people that it was just easy for. Do you know what I mean? And like, I wasn't like those people. And so those people needed to take care of people like me, you know, or something.

Right. And then the more you really kind of do this internal work and realize like, okay, kind of, there's a, I think there's a way where in the beginning it's a lot of work, right? But the more you get that in place, then it becomes like having pipes running water into your house, [00:15:00] right? When When the pipes are first being laid, I'm sure that's a lot of work.

I've never done anything like that, but I'm sure it's a lot of digging and, and like, oh my goodness and heavy and, and all the stuff. But once it's going, then, okay, there's a flow to it. And it's not so much work going forward. Right. But, um, but it's not like that, that person who has the flow going is, is in any way inherently different than anybody else.

And. If, you know, somebody that let's say the have like, okay, I'm going to be really nice and go outside of myself and take care of this person in an ongoing way. Not that we, you know, aren't generous and charitable and whatever, but in an ongoing way, the fostering of that dependency does no big picture kind of favor for that person who's in that have not spot.

If anything, it just is going to. Unintentionally, but like reiterate the message that you're not like me, you're not capable and [00:16:00] peace and contentment is contingent on me instead of on, you know, on the Lord and your ability to, um, to really foster that relationship and take on the mind of Christ for yourself and, and that kind of thing.

So good. There's so much that I want to comment on. One of the things I just wanted to say was, I think what goes along with this neediness and relying on people in, you know, unhealthy ways, is that we are almost like afraid of solitude. I think solitude gets kind of a bad rap because it's so important for growth, right?

We have to like sit alone, like with ourselves and like you said with God too, and kind of face ourselves. And I noticed in myself when I was kind of in these ruts of down spiraling into self pity and neediness, I was kind of trying to avoid that. I was trying to avoid facing myself because it was scary, it was intense or whatever.

And I think like when that's your posture of like, no, no, no, I'm going to take this fight, like, where it needs to go. I'm going to face myself. I'm going to work on myself. I'm going to actually transform. At that point, [00:17:00] plugging the right people into your life who can help you accomplish that is beautiful.

Like, I've had mentors come along me, like, spiritual directors, therapists, like, who then helped me achieve that. But I'm not looking to them to do it for me. And, and like the author John Eldredge says, this kind of dynamic can often happen with men and women. Um, where men, if they don't know that they're men, if they haven't like received that strength, that affirmation from other men, then they'll often go to women seeking that strength.

For the woman to like give him that strength. And it's just not positive. It's not how we're made. We can't do that. And so there's just this like, Constant, vicious cycle of like, you know, I need you to be, like you said, my mom and give me strength and affirmation when it's like, no, you need to go to God and other men in your life to receive that strength.

And then you have that strength to offer to the people in your life, especially, you know, like your spouse, which I think is really, really good and beautiful. And so I think that there's a difference in posture when you go to mentors to kind of, you know, fill the need for you versus help you fill the need [00:18:00] yourself.

Yeah, and, and I would even say, like, so here's a feminine perspective on that, but I think you can even see that, um, not so much as the man, um, sometimes, right, but I'm just saying, like, what initially comes to mind when you say that is, like, kind of a, kind of a weak man's kind of like, you know, kind of more wimpy or whatever.

But it, it can be insidious, right? It can also be the man who, who seeks out really weak women always has to be with a damsel in distress, right? I have to find somebody to rescue because that makes me feel strong. And I see that, I see that a lot. I see a lot of times like men are just Men just being attracted to like weakness because, because it makes him feel strong.

But the sad thing in that is like, okay, if she ends up getting help and really becoming the fullness of who God's created her to be, that's going to change up that dance. And is it going to so threaten you and, and, you know, destroy the relationship because you don't want anybody being locked into, you know, we can, a way that's not [00:19:00] who the who God created him to be, right?

We're all called to grow into the full stature of Christ, you know. That's so good. And I think we're hitting the right balance here because we, I want to, for anyone who's stuck in this situation right now, I want you to know, like, we feel you, like we get where you are. We've been there, like, we're not putting you down in any way, but we love you too much to leave you there.

We want to help you. Get to the spot where we know that you're going to be more functional, healthier, and then thrive and experience a lot of joy. Like, there's a lot of joy that comes along with learning how to stand on your own two feet, having the backbone, being able to, you know, relate to others in like healthy ways and not go to them to just, again, be constantly pouring into this kind of endless hole, this bottomless pit.

Right. And the, and the lies, um, that that cycle. Tells you isn't fair to you because they're because they're lies. Like, it's not the truth. There's nothing inherent about you and who you are. Right. And so, so just understanding how these things fit together, I think, can kind of pull the curtain back on that.

I mean, like, what? Like, this isn't who I am. Like, you know, if it [00:20:00] wasn't who you are, and it's not who I am. And like, there must be There must be something to this because we were both in those spots and now, you know, not that there isn't still ongoing, you know, growth, hopefully there is for everybody as long as we're breathing, right?

I think that's good news, though, you know, not bad news. And so just understanding how it fits together and that, you know, if people are relating to you in a way that feels like consistently rejecting, you know, then it's not about who you are, like plug into the Lord first. Honestly, you know, there was a point number of years ago, well, early years of practice, I remember thinking like, okay, the people in my world, because I'm, single and live alone.

The people in my world who need from me are really basically clients. So if I'm walking into the office to see somebody, that's somebody who's, who's in need, which is true, but it came to realize like, no, every time I walk outside of my house, there's people in need, you know? [00:21:00] And so it doesn't become my job to take care of them.

Like I'm, I'm, I'm not the Messiah, of course, still being kind and charitable and just kind of understanding that, that a lot of people are coming from a place of, even if they might seem like the ones that are the haves, right? You know, relational or emotional haves at any given time, every day has.

Troubles enough of its own as scripture says, you know, and there's everybody's fighting a great battle. You know, another famous quote, you know, kind of thing, but just a always kind of, in my mind, I picture it like pipes, right? Like if I, if I keep the end of my pipe, like connected to the Lord, then I look at myself as the desire.

To be like a conduit of grace, but it's his grace. It's not my grace. If I'm supposed to be a source of grace, I'm tapped out before I get out of bed. You know what I mean? Like there's none there. But if we're plugging into the Lord, then anybody, even the people who feel like they're in that have not spot, we [00:22:00] can get to a place of feeling like we're starting with the needle on full instead of on empty.

You know, and I think that's really possible for everybody. No, I totally agree. And I think like, yeah, knowing those healthy limits is so good at both for yourself and in relationship to other people. Um, yeah. And it ends up again, making you healthier, happier. It's so good. And it just opens up. Uh, doors that maybe you don't even think are possible to open.

You don't even know because you haven't been there yet, but I promise it's, it's worth it. But, uh, one final analogy. And then I wanted to share something from kind of the art world, uh, on this topic. So one analogy I like to think of when it comes to this, like, how do you, you know, kind of rely on people in an unhealthy way?

And I think athletics is a great analogy. So if you think about it, you know, I was a baseball player for years, play different sports like football, volleyball, things like that. But it's like, you know, the coaches were there to help me. Yeah. But they weren't going to lift the weights for me, you know, they weren't going to like run the sprints, they weren't going to field the ground balls, they weren't going to spend hours in the batting cage, like, I had to do that.

They were going to be there to like show [00:23:00] me, um, you know, they were going to be there to like support me, to help me, to, to guide me, um, but they weren't going to get in there and do it for me. And I remember hearing this quote from Dave Ramsey too, he said, you know, God feeds the birds, but he doesn't throw the worms in the nest.

Like you got to get after it. And I think, I think there's so much truth to that. And I think that could feel difficult for some people if you're like really in a tough rut. But, um, but it is, I think taking that ownership and being like, okay, maybe you were dealt a tough hand in life, but it's like, you know, I don't have a say necessarily over what happened to me.

But from this moment on, I am taking ownership of the solution of my life. Like, I'm not going to let that. Write my story. Like I want to write my own story. And I think there's a lot of beauty there. And a lot of people I've seen who've like transformed their lives, like they take that perspective. And one of my recent guests, Stacy, she said something like, um, broken is what happened to me, not who I am.

So often we walk through life thinking like, well, I'm just really broken and I'm always going to be like this. And, you know, again, there's a point to grieving. We'll get to that a little bit [00:24:00] later, but at some point we got to like, you know, get after it, move on. Yeah. Yeah. And shame on your coach. If they did do the train, the sprints and the batting cage and everything for you, because it cripples you and they're just getting stronger and stronger and stronger.

So there's a quote, I'm 99 percent sure the, the person this is attributed to is a guy named Frank layman, Frank P layman, not sure who he is, but I just remember coming across it at one point and it says the kids, the world. Almost breaks become the ones most likely to change it. And it's just, it's beautiful.

Isn't it like that having, having been one of those kids, like it's that just like tugs at my heart every time. But I think there's something to that. I think there's a lot of hope in that. If you feel like you're somebody who's in that spot, then that means like. You have a secret insight into the world and pain in a way that God can really use, you know, for you to be a very particular conduit of grace or healing or, you know, whatever it is [00:25:00] in, in the lives of others or, you know, those around you or through your ministry.

No, so good. And that like gave me the chills, that quote, and it fires me up because like, yeah, I want to be that person, right. For other people just to speak vulnerably. And yeah, no, it's beautiful. Uh, switching from sports to art. So I think one of the other aspects to this whole struggle is that there's a lot of, um, comfort.

in the familiarity. Like, like there's this weird thing that we kind of are comfortable in our own misery. Sure. Um, even if it's something that's bad for us, it's not leading us to a better place. And so, um, the, the rapper NF, he's like this clean rapper. He has a song called happy. Are you going to wrap this?

I think you should wrap it, Joey. So it's him, you know, singing actually to God of all people. So he's singing to God and in the song he raps these lines, which I won't make you all suffer through for me, but, but it's, it's really, really good stuff. So he says, he says, I don't know why, but I feel more comfortable living in my agony, watching my self [00:26:00] esteem go up in flames, acting like I don't care.

When anyone else thinks when I know truthfully, That, that's the furthest thing from how I feel, but I'm too proud to open up and ask you to pick me up and pull me out this hole I'm trapped in. The truth is I need help, but I just can't imagine who I'd be if I was happy. Yeah. So, so anyway, there's a few different things going on there.

Like, obviously like the one point of like, it's not bad to ask for help. We're just saying to do it in the right way. So he kind of hits on that. I just wanted to clarify that point. Um, but really that like, man, we're just comfortable. And kind of the status quo, and I think it's really important to break out of that.

So how do we break out of that and take action? I think taking action is breaking, is how we break out of it. I don't, I don't know that there's ever a point when it just becomes easy in the beginning, right? It becomes easier by doing it. It's like lifting, right? Like lifting weights, the weight becomes lighter.

The more you lift it, but if it's something that's going to cause you to grow when you walk up to it, it's heavy initially, right? You have to have to start pumping [00:27:00] it. And anytime we, you know, especially going back to the sports analogy, having played sports as well, we don't have muscle memory of something yet.

Right. Feels really awkward, right? It's like, am I doing this right? Like, you know, I don't know. It just, you're having to concentrate on, you know, batting, right? Your stance, where are my feet? How am I holding my elbows? How am I following through? Like, okay. Oh, watch the ball. That's a thing too. Like trying to put all these things together at the same time and not get beamed in the head, you know, and like, whatever.

But the more you do it, the more natural it becomes. And to the point where it's just, yeah, you don't even have to think about it. You just, you just get up there and you're, you know, it just feels right and flows, you know, and, um, actually becomes relaxing and enjoyable, you know, and then pretty soon you don't even, somebody else has to point it out to you that you're, that you're doing it, you know, and maybe not in terms of batting, but living in a, in a healthy place or from that place of wholeness.

I [00:28:00] think if we wait, if we, Wait to want to do it or wait to feel equipped to do it or comfortable doing it, like, we'll just be, we'll just keep on waiting, you know, I think it's, yeah, it's just beginning to just, yeah, just starting, just starting and you tweak as you go and you grow as you go and learn more, but you got to start, you got to start.

Yeah. And no, that's so good. And I think, um, That's like the scariest thing for people. It's just starting. I could use another analogy like the business world, right? It's a, it's a scary thing to start a business. Um, it's intimidating. There's a complexity to it. There's all these steps that you probably know nothing about.

And a lot of people, they like wait, right? There's risk. Like, yeah, you can lose money. Like you can, you know, maybe put yourself in a really difficult situation economically. Like all these things are so much. That goes into it, but it's, um, you know, a lot of people then have this perspective of like, well, I'm just going to wait till I'm ready.

And the really interesting paradox is like, you're never actually going to be ready. The only way that you'll be quote [00:29:00] unquote ready is by actually like taking action and like learning what you need to know in order to take just like the next step. And then you, then you knock down that barrier and then you go to the next barrier and knock down that barrier.

And then you go to the next one. And that's basically entrepreneurship. It's just like a load of just like knocking things down. And then you're, you know, you look up and you're like, Oh wow, I didn't feel like I was ready. I just did it anyway. And as I did now, I see like, wow, I'm like this far up the mountain and this is great.

And I got a lot further to go. But man, if I was waiting to be, you know, Get maybe, you know, one analogy would be like to get all this like perfect training or have like all the perfect people in your life who could tell you exactly what to do in any given situation. It's like, good luck. You really need to just like, you know, again, not saying that advice and guidance and learning isn't a good thing, but if it's just substituted for action, you're just digging yourself into a hole.

Yeah, I mean, something we've all experienced, whether we're business owners or athletes or not, right, is [00:30:00] like being a baby. And like crawling and then walking, like if a baby just sits here and ponders crawling and, and, you know, mommy plays a lot of YouTube videos about how to crawl properly. Like it's never gonna, they're never going to get across the room until they start doing it, you know, even though, you know, I know you have a little girl, so like, you know, first baby has their butt stuck way up in the air and they're like trying to, they can't manage their body weight, you know, and so they, push themselves forward.

Maybe they bonk their head as they, you know, haven't quite figured out how to move their arms in, you know, synchronicity with their legs and that bilateral kind of motion or what, but it's by doing it that, that we've, that we learned to do it. So you have done it before, like everybody listening to this has done it before, you know.

As long as it's somebody who's already crawled. No, no. So good. And I want to circle back to an important point of like disability at some point. We'll come back to that in a little bit later, but two, two things I wanted to mention on the side of like being the coach or the parent, right. Um, [00:31:00] you actually have to let your kids struggle, which is hard.

Like, there's this real temptation when you're, you see someone you love who's struggling to let them kind of continue going down that path. And it's really important, like, when your kid's learning to crawl or walk, like, they're gonna take some falls. Like, the goal, you know, there, at least as a parent, which is a little bit of a different role, is like, you kind of want to make the environment somewhat safe so that they're not gonna, like, get really hurt.

You know, to the point where that would just be damaged to them. Right. But if they feel some pain, if they feel some hurt, as opposed to like the harm that we're talking about, um, then, then that's not a bad thing and that's something you just have to kind of go through. And so, um, yeah, I think that's, that's a hard lesson on the being on the side of someone who wants to help, which I know we have people like that listening now too.

Um, but the other thing I was going to say is. When it comes to like just starting. So yeah, you're right. Like there's people who will read books about any number of skills, like, you know, playing the violin. If we want to throw another analogy, it's like, great. Like you can read and watch videos and do all that thing, but all that stuff.

But if you just pick up the violin and start playing, you're going to learn way more. And then that actually, [00:32:00] that stuff will actually become useful than if you were to just like, you know, continue just learning, learning, learning. And the other thing I was going to say, I think a lot of people get discouraged to even act because they look around them and they see people who are like so much further ahead and they compare themselves.

And, and the comparison leads them not to motivation where like, Oh, wow. I admire what they've achieved. I want to achieve that too. I'm going to kind of try to learn from them and do it myself. Um, it, it can really lead to like, well, I'm never going to be like that. Or they were so much further ahead. How could I ever catch up?

And, uh, I think, you know, one quote I heard is like, don't compare your behind the scenes with everyone else's highlight reels, because you're seeing someone who's likely putting a lot of effort over a lot of time, or maybe they just had like a different environment growing up, whatever had, maybe they started a little higher in the mountain.

And so we can't just like have that comparison. The comparison should just be used for inspiration. And then it's like, no, now I'm just going to fight my battle. Uh, the only person I'm competing against is myself. And I'm just going to keep trying to get better and better and better slowly. And that's another thing too.

It's like the slow progress, like so [00:33:00] much of. I mean, maybe this is just American culture, but I think that applies around the world. A lot of times it's like, we just want to see results instantly. It's like, okay. I mean, if you go to the gym for a week, like your body's not going to transform. You go for a month.

Your body's not going to really transform. You might get a little stronger. You go for six months. Okay. You're going to transform a bit, but it's not going to be like completely different. You go for a year. Okay. Now, now we're starting to see more results. You go for years. Now we're seeing like an incredible transformation.

But we all want to do like 30 days or like a couple months and see these incredible results. That's just not how it works. Yeah. Talking about the comparison thing, like it makes me think of what you and I were talking about before we started recording and that was my concussions, right? So just that I had had nine concussions, um, all sports and car accidents and didn't realize how much I was affected by those.

But just recently having treated with a functional neurologist. And having, like, amazing results [00:34:00] from that, then, like, what people probably didn't know about me before was, like, I couldn't read. I didn't read going through college. Thank the Lord I'm an auditory learner. But, you know, somebody sees, like, you know, People relate to me sometimes as like, Oh, like you're on a certain sort of pedestal, you know, and you're like these people would say, have you read and that's all they'd have to say to my mind.

I'd be like, Nope, they wouldn't even have to say the name of the book. I'd be like, is it on an audible? You know, I've written a couple of books. I had to write the second one when the pandemic happened because I needed such uninterrupted time because it was. Words made sense coming out of my head, but I couldn't read over them to assess, okay, or pick back up when I left off, like, what was I saying and jump in?

They made no sense going in. So I had to have completely uninterrupted time to like, kind of dump it all out. But then even that going over edits and like, you know, is this a better way to say this or that? I don't know, because I don't know what I was saying to begin with. So, but you know, when, [00:35:00] Not that they're great works of erudition or anything or, or war and peace or something, but, but people see, you know, you've written a couple of books or you're a therapist, you have, you know, you're on podcasts or whatever.

Yeah, I was riding the struggle bus like big time. I couldn't read, you know, my goodness. So yeah, so it's, it's amazing. Like, like exactly like you were saying about like seeing the highlight reels and not what's going on on the backside, like it's really struggling through, but by the same token, the Lord allowed that struggle, right?

Until 54 years old. And he said, when you're talking about parents or coaches, like letting people struggle, that's how God did. I look back at it now, I'm like, wow, I feel like so charged up for like, oh my goodness, like glad that I didn't just kind of sit and be like, oh, well, I can't do it. And because, you know, it's kind of like, right when you get into the, um, when you're on deck as a baseball player.

What's that little ring that you, that you drop on the bat that like adds weight to it. Right. [00:36:00] So, okay. Yeah. Right. So it makes it heavier. Right. So then when you get up and you actually are swinging, like you can like, bring that bat around, like really forcefully because you were trying to do it like where it was like a lot more challenging and now it feels easier.

Right. So, so I kind of look at it like struggle struggle is a good thing, but I think we should normalize. Struggle like struggle should be bad because we're not struggling in some some way like we're not growing, you know No, 100 percent and I I was listening to a podcast recently by like, uh, I think it was a maybe a neurobiologist Anyway, he was talking about a part of our brain that literally doesn't get activated unless we're pushing beyond our limits And that, and that part of our brain, I can't remember the details, I'm sorry, but that part of our brain is connected to like longevity, like how long we live in our life and like our ability to be productive and just be healthy people.

And so like that, that's such a good thing to struggle, like you said, and in the right context. Yeah, I [00:37:00] think the only way to not struggle is complacency. Yeah. Right? Like, cause there's always something to grow in, some area to grow in, you know. And one, one tip here, one tactic is like, if you are stuck in that rut of complacency and apathy and just like, you know, not able to take action, or you feel like you're not able to take action, you always are able to take action.

But you feel like you're not able to take action. I would maybe look at the people you're surrounding yourself with. Like, are they people who are maybe similar in the sense that they're kind of complacent and not taking action too. And then if you kind of slowly try to surround yourself with people, try to learn from people who are maybe doing what you want to do or be Who you want to become, something amazing will happen.

Like you literally will start kind of rising to that level over time. It doesn't happen all at once. Um, but there's even like data on this. I don't have the study in front of me, but you end up making like similar money to like your closest, like five friends, which is like bizarre if you think about it, um, Um, and I think there's something similar, like when it comes to fitness too, like if you're spending time around [00:38:00] people who like drink beer all the time and just like, don't take care of their bodies, you're probably going to end up being like that, as opposed to, you know, someone who spends time with people who like work out regularly and, you know, they eat clean and all that stuff.

So I think that's one kind of practical, cause I want to take this into the practical now too. Um, but before we maybe get further into that, some people might be thinking like, well, what about disabilities? I think this is an important nuance that we add here and I know maybe it's not an easy answer, but there are people who have legitimate disabilities.

Um, like we're not just talking about like maybe learned helplessness or victim mentality, which I know that's kind of in the tone of the conversation, but we're looking more at like, you know, um, I, you know, someone who may be with Down syndrome would be maybe an extreme example. Um, but I think maybe in the middle is a little bit more of a gray area and people might even get a diagnosis about something And then they maybe let that become the label and then know there's like danger and all that too.

So yeah, talk us through all of that. Like, what if, what if someone truly does have some sort of a disability? How do they then take what we're saying and, and act on it? Do you mean [00:39:00] like emotional disability, physical disability? Like what in a particular case? Thing you have in mind? Yeah. I mean, we could go any direction with this, but I guess since we're talking about like the emotional side, let's focus a little bit more on that.

And I don't know if, you know, something like bipolar disease would be something to throw in there, or maybe that's too extreme of an example, but yeah, just something where people can point to something else and kind of maybe say, well, I have this, therefore I can never become that. Yeah. I just look at diagnoses as they're just, um, they're a word that's used to describe a collection of.

Ways a person is struggling, right? I just look at, I look at a diagnosis as like, it's, um, it's a word that describes like how a person's doing. It's not who they are, right? Because you can think about people, even people under like, a disability. arduous circumstances or struggling in really very limiting ways and yet making huge impacts on the people around them by who they are.

And I think that's kind of maybe to take what [00:40:00] we're, what we're talking about, like kind of brings it together is like the, Taking action can sound a lot like about doing, but whatever we've seen is like when we get the being right, the doing flows and, and we as mental health, we are the first people to offend against this because we'll talk about dysfunction and I think dysfunction is, I'm trying to keep it clean, , but it's not accurate.

It's like, it's, it's a faulty place to start, right? Like dysfunction, like we should talk about dis being. Or, or dis essence or something, because that's the problem. When, when we get the being right, the doing flows, right? Like the Lord comes and talks about the Beatitudes. He's, he doesn't have to focus on the Ten Commandments.

He knows if we're living the Beatitudes, like the Ten Commandments are taken care of, you know, or like in therapy. Um, usually the beginning of the week, if I'm working with a child and I ask the parent, like, you know, what's going on, they'll describe the behavior. But the end of the week when I'm like, you know, what's going [00:41:00] on, they'll say, he's just so peaceful.

He's just so loving. I don't have to say like, is he still throwing tantrums and breaking things? And, you know, I mean, it's kind of, they'd look at me like I had three heads. Like, did you not hear me say? He's so peaceful, you know, and I think that if we focus more on our being, then the doing gets taken care of, right?

It'll flow. That makes sense. And so in that sense, like we're not limited, like our being would be how we would approach whatever diagnosis or whatever disability or whatever we have. There's still a you that is immutable in goodness and in the ability to strive towards being more. you know, plugged into the Lord.

I mean, even if a person just focuses on really receiving God's love and lining up their thoughts of, you know, I like to tongue in cheek say, if you disagree with how God sees you, you're probably the one who's in error. Like, probably just going to go out on a limb there, right? So if we even just focus on [00:42:00] that as I'm going to try to align how I see myself, how I relate to myself in terms of my self talk and self care more with how the Lord sees me.

And like, I think that's something that we're all capable of regardless of physical limitations or diagnosis or whatever. Right? And like, the more we're. plugged into that. I mean, God's all powerful and God is love. And the more we're plugged into his love and really receiving it, it's transformative, you know?

So I figure let him do the heavy lifting. Yeah. No, there's, there's a bunch of lessons in that. Um, one is we can prescribe or get our identity from, or describe ourselves, I guess. Based on a condition or an experience alone, like you're saying, and that's really what diagnoses are, right? It's just saying, well, you have these symptoms and therefore this is the condition that goes along with those symptoms.

Like I mentioned, bipolar disease or something like that. But you're right. You can't, you wouldn't like walk around and say, I am a bipolar man. Like maybe some people would say that, but this is kind of a weird thing to say. It's [00:43:00] not accurate in my mind. Can I jump on that? Because people. People do that regularly.

They'll say my bipolar or my anxiety or whatever. And even though that might be a common way to talk, like, it makes me bristle because I feel like that's, it's not who you are. And it's really dangerous to like, to cling to that in such a way that's, um, you know, Like ownership, you know, like, why would you want to own that in some sort?

I'm not saying be in denial about it. Okay. I'm struggling with anxiety, but I think that's, that sounds far different. And I think that even just the, what it kind of affects within the person is far different than saying my anxiety. It's like, are you aware there's a you that's immutable that's still going to remain like when the anxiety is gone or is like how you see yourself so wrapped up with your anxiety that we kind of have to pry it out of your, out of your hands, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I follow you. I think it just begins to form how we see ourselves. And, um, so again, not saying being [00:44:00] in denial about something, but as far as owning it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that's a good exercise where, you know, think through kind of how you would. Maybe describe yourself to something like a friend or someone you're meeting, or even just how you maybe think about yourself.

But I found it easier if there's like some sort of external person, maybe you're talking to and think through like, okay, how would I describe myself and try to differentiate between the things that are true to your identity. For example, you know, I'm a man, I'm American. I come from an Italian bloodline.

I, you know, all these things I could say that are just true to my identity compared to those things that maybe are just things that happened to you. Like I'm a child of divorce. Which, I kind of have a love hate relationship with that term, because it just describes something I've been through. It doesn't slap an identity on me, though it sounds like it does.

So I think differentiating between the two, um, is maybe a good exercise for people to do, if you guys want to. And then the other thing I was going to say, too, I want to nuance, I think, the action and being thing a little bit more for people. Um, I love what you're saying, and I think it's so true. I guess the one thing that I see maybe a little bit differently, [00:45:00] or just again, it's more of a nuance, is that There's often action needed to clarify the being, right?

Because even in the example, and I know you'd agree with this, but even the example of like the young person you were helping who, you know, their parent came in and was describing the dysfunction compared to the being at the end, the action that was between that change, that transformation was actually working with you, right?

And they were doing the work themselves, like the young person. You were just their guide and mentor, right? Um, but I think that's kind of an important distinction. So if someone's gonna just maybe looking in the mirror and being like, okay, like this is who I am, this is who I am. I think you're only going to get so far.

Um, there are certain actions that may be aligned with the identity that you, that that's true to you. Like, you know, I don't want to throw, you know, Too many more analogies around, but you know, thinking of like, there's a difference between being someone who like goes to the gym to someone who's like into fitness.

Like it's kind of becomes after so many actions, it eventually kind of is almost like integrated into your character. It becomes part of your being, so to speak. So I think there is like this interplay between action. And being, and I [00:46:00] think, and yeah, I know you'd agree with that, but I think it's important for everyone listening to think of it like through practically like, okay, how do I exactly change my being like, it sounds like we need to learn the truth about who we are.

That's important. That's knowledge. But then, you know, how do we then kind of make sure that we see ourselves that way and not some other way. Yeah, I think so. A couple things come to mind. One would be like, I think you had mentioned like that solitude can be very challenging. Right? So I would think like, and this is something that's that was a big game changer for me.

And it was like internal stance. So even though it was invisible, and it was about being, but it was actually doing something, it just wasn't like external action. So it was not external action. It was like, If I'm in a place of whether it's really having like good news to celebrate or something difficult that I'm suffering, to like go to the Lord with it first and share it with him first before I looked for, you know, the consolation or the joy of sharing it with somebody else.

Wow. Not that it's bad to do that. I'm [00:47:00] not saying that it's bad to have. human support and relationships, but it's the primacy of that relationship. It begins to build a foundation of his reliable and sense of intimacy by, with him and a sense of being known by him and that kind of thing as really like primary and foundational.

So, so it is more about being, even though it is action, right? You know what I'm saying? And another thing I think is to, if instead of, if there's like the, you know, that tendency to compare myself to people on the outside and somehow find myself lacking, then it would be to like set up incremental goals.

Like the goal doesn't have to be, you know, just being this in this super like great emotional spot. And I look like how I perceive these other people like, no, make the, make the goals like incremental, you know what I mean? Make them where it's just, did I turn to the Lord first? Like, right? Did I, did I turn to him first, right?

It doesn't have to be anything else because I can [00:48:00] control that. I think too often we can look at the outcome or the result that we don't necessarily have control over as opposed to looking at our effort and setting goals having to do with effort. No, I love that. That makes a lot of sense. It's like, okay, if you go back to weightlifting, it'd be like, I want my bicep to be.

This many inches. Well, okay, good luck. Like you don't know what's in your genetics or not, right? So you can contribute with, you know, diet and exercise, but you don't have control over how big your bicep is going to be. Like you don't, you know, but you have control over, am I going to go to work out this many times?

Am I going to eat right? Am I going to, you know, This many times a week or whatever, right? Like, so, um, so set goals by the effort instead of assessing it by the outcome. Okay. No, that's really good. And I'm sure there's so much more we can say, but I want to just kind of circle back to the whole disability thing.

I think one important distinction there is like, even if you're maybe so quote unquote, like handicapped in some way, or you feel handicapped in some way, it's like still do your best still, you know, [00:49:00] still like, again, try to compete against yourself, become better tomorrow than you are today. And I think a great example of this is I know just back up a little bit.

I do. I've heard of people. I don't know them personally who do have like bipolar disease, a disorder, sorry. And they are living like very like good lives. They're like, almost like, I guess you can say they're thriving, like they're able to, I hate the word manage it, but in some ways they're able to like, live with that thing that is maybe holding them back in some way, and I know this is a bigger conversation because I, like, you would probably think that well, if they maybe healed the trauma behind it, maybe that symptom or that condition would like, Wrap up all together.

That's a separate conversation, . So maybe this is a bad, uh, condition to pick, but No, no, that's fine. Yeah. I think there still are people, I mean, yeah, it's the ideology of meaning. Some people can be diagnosed with bipolar and it might not be an accurate diagnosis, but that's not to say the diagnosis doesn't exist at all.

Right? Yeah. But, but you can still live like a really good and beautiful and meaningful life. That's my whole [00:50:00] point. It's like, you sure absolutely don't, don't make that an excuse for not. You know, trying or not living like a good life. You still can. There's people who do. Yeah. In the show Reacher, actually, I don't know if people have seen that, you know, there's maybe some questionable content in it, but it's on Amazon Prime.

The show Reacher, like Tom Cruise did some movies years back about this, like, army investigator who, you know, Becomes a civilian. And anyway, he just like goes on and like solves these like crimes and things, but there's a show now with this actor who's just this enormous guy. And anyway, he's a great actor, but I just learned recently, I was listening to an interview.

Uh, he has bipolar and he is just like, from what I see, at least in some areas of his life, he's like kicking back, like he's doing really well. So it's really cool to like, look at people like that and see, okay. Sure. Even with maybe a little bit of a hand behind your back or something, you can still do really well.

And on that note, I just wanted to just share with people, there's this Navy SEAL. His name is Ryan Jobe. And cause again, people, I think we all can fall into this victim mentality and just think, well, I can't, I can't win. I'm just stuck. I just, you know, might as well just give up. And this [00:51:00] Navy SEAL, Ryan Jobe, he was in Iraq, you know, and they were clearing buildings one day when he got hit in the face with a sniper's bullet.

Okay. Rough situation. I didn't kill him, but in time he learned, like, he was completely blind. He, he wouldn't be able to see again, and he really, at that moment, could have just given up. Like, he truly could have. Like, it would have been, people, we all probably would have given someone of a pass, right?

Because of what he had been through. So he's, he's blind. Um, but he refused. He said, nope. Like, I'm not gonna give up. I'm not gonna let this condition, I'm not gonna let this injury define me. Like, I still want to live a good, beautiful, full life. And so, as a blind man, he did incredible things. He summited Mount Rainier, which is like over 14, 000 feet.

People, a few people, like, die every year climbing this. To give context, as a blind man, he did it. You need specialized gear. There's ice, typically. Like, it's, it's not an easy thing. He climbed the thing. He trained for a triathlon. Um, he earned his bachelor's degree with a 4. 0 GPA. He [00:52:00] successfully hunted an elk, uh, as a, as a blind man.

Uh, he married his girlfriend and, and they had a child. And so like hearing Ryan's story, it's like, well, yeah, his story could have ended very differently. But, but he just said, Nope, I'm not going to be a victim. I'm not, I will. Let me just clarify that he was a victim of, you know, an enemy fighter shooting him, but he said, I will not remain a victim.

I think there's so much power in that. And your favorite part's the elk, right? Yeah. Or the Navy SEAL part. I just love that. So Margaret, I feel there's so much more we can say, I guess, um, in closing up the conversation, just want to touch a little bit on grief. So I know through all of this, we're not saying that.

You know, if you've been through trauma, you can just kind of skip over it and just kind of toughen up and deal with it and move on, you know, uh, does grieving have its place? Yeah. I think anytime there's been a loss, you know, whether it's, uh, you know, realizing coming to grips with kind of like what that person had told me, that's not fair.

I deserve to have been taken care of as a child. Okay. Well, there's a grief there, [00:53:00] but you grieve it. The way to get to the other side of the grief is. That you do something different going forward, you know, and so, yeah, absolutely. It definitely has its place, but well, here we are sitting here, like getting ready to be at Easter.

So there's new life, like on the other side, and that's how you get to the new life is through the grieving. It's part of the process, but then doing something different going forward, right? To me as a person, like. Overcoming trauma and the doing something different going forward was the kind of in in my mind, like the bad guys don't get to win, you know, like my peace and contentment isn't contingent on somebody else.

And I can do what I can do to be able to to write a different story. Like that's not how the story ends kind of thing. No, I love that. And my kind of lay person definition of grief is really like the process of accepting the new reality after the loss. And so it's like getting to that point is going to involve, you know, a lot of the typical things people talk about with grief, there's going to be, you know, sadness, [00:54:00] there's going to be denial.

There's going to be, you know, maybe the whole bargaining thing where you think, well, maybe I could have done this differently and prevented that. It's going to be anger. There's going to, but eventually that acceptance I think is where we want to lead and it's a messy process. Like it's not linear and it does take time.

I don't want to pretend that it doesn't. But. I think if we, you know, look at someone who, you know, had a serious loss in their life, and it's like years and years later, I don't know if we could put an exact timeline on, like, when you should be beyond grief or whatever, but if it's years and years later, and they're still just like anchored on that grief, I think there's a problem there.

Because I think as helpful as all of that is, it's helpful, and I'm talking to myself as much as anyone, it's like, you know, I think it's easy to get caught up in the past and, you know, grieve and then we need to ask the question, like, now what? And I think part of the problem, especially in this topic of divorce, I want to like be very gentle here because so often when your family falls apart, there's a lot of dysfunction.

Your parents get divorced, like there's a separation, like whatever the particular case is for everyone listening. It's often just not even treated as a trauma. It's not even treated as something that you need to grieve. It's not even treated as a loss. And [00:55:00] so a lot of people might be showing up. To this episode or this podcast, just thinking that, well, you know, they're just learning that it was a loss.

Maybe they kind of felt that on some level, but it wasn't conscious. And then now they're like, okay, now I need to grieve that loss. Totally get that. And I just want to give you guys grace there, of course. Um, but we're kind of talking about the situation where the, you know, I think I've fallen to in the past where it's like, I'm just going to grieve perpetually forever, and I'm never going to kind of accept the new reality and move on in life.

And I think that's like really, really dangerous. Again, I think in time, we need to find meaning in the midst of our reality right now, today, learn how to accept it and really live and even thrive in the midst of it. And again, I think it's really important to ask that question, like, now what? And so that's kind of one of the final questions I'd throw to you.

Like, how can someone best answer that question? Now what? How can they best answer the question, now what, of like meaning, like the new reality going forward. I think like, you know, I heard this homily once, this was decades ago. I'm old enough that it was really a number of decades ago, but I loved it because he [00:56:00] said, like, if you want to know, like, what's the Lord really like calling you to be in a particular way to glorify him, you know, for us as Catholics, like be a saint.

It's like, look at what area of your life you've really struggled. Right. I mean, like you were in a divorced family. Like I had a whole lot of trauma. You now minister to people from divorced families and I'm a trauma therapist, right? Um, you know, or he was talking about, you know, St. Peter, who was a sand pile.

It was just, he was crumbling all over the place, sticking his foot in his mouth. And then like the Lord makes him, you know, the rock, right? Or Mary Magdalene, who's so much, you know, impurity in her background. And then like, just renowned for like, just, you know, passionate, like single hearted love for the Lord, you know?

So looking at what area like you're particularly challenged by, and I think that can begin to give you some inkling of the now what, I liked your definition, right? Accepting the new reality going forward, but it's not just about accepting, it's living into that new reality. And I think that can point us into the next chapter.

[00:57:00] Direction of what's the new reality. I love that. And I think another way to ask that question now, what is like, what am I going to do with this? Like this happened, like, what am I going to do with this? Like, yes, take time to grieve, you know, all of that's very important, but it's like, what am I going to do with it?

I'm going to let it define me. Am I going to let it. limit me in life, hold me back like we've been talking about, or am I going to then take that and use that as a catalyst for growth? Because really pain, I think, and suffering and trauma in life can either, you know, just kind of destroy us or we can use it as a catalyst for growth.

And I going back to, I mentioned Dave Ramsey before, I remember him saying like the difference between him and a lot of other people is like he, and really anyone who's like a high performer who's been able to, you know, gain any sort of like success in life is like, You're just standing on top of like the pain and the struggles in your life instead of just being buried under them.

Like, like that can be like your ladder to climb up. And so I think there's a lot of hope in that. And like you said, just maybe looking at people in your life or where you might feel called to then pour into others in a healthy way, um, is a really [00:58:00] beautiful thing as well. It's a good outlet. And I know for me, that was like actually a really healing thing.

To look beyond my own pain and try to find people in my life who maybe were suffering even more than me and see what I could do again to love them in a healthy, like balanced way. And so, uh, any final thoughts on that before we close on? Yeah, just for me, it's, you know, kind of like what you're saying, but like about becoming that person, your, your little kid wish they had back then.

Yeah. And then, you know, taking that and like trying to help people to help themselves. I think that's like so beautiful. Like we were talking about before, where it's like, we need to really grow that ability to kind of lead that little kid inside of us. That, that little, that hurt part of us that maybe wants to freak out, that wants to stay stuck, that wants to grieve forever, that wants to play the victim constantly.

And it's really beautiful to know that like, okay, no, we can be that person who leads us out of that misery, that stuckness into a much better place. Yeah, and then chances are there's other people struggling the same way they're that little emotional part of them struggling in the same way and when you come to [00:59:00] that understanding or way of being able to be that for for that part of you, then you probably have a gift to offer a lot of people.

Who are in that same place, you know? Yeah. And there's, uh, countless stories of people who've, who've done that, who've used that pain and transformed, like you said, transformed other people's lives or helped them transform their lives. So, so good. Um, in closing, I just want to say thank you so much and just really always enjoy talking to you and.

Yes. Yeah. Our partnership has been great. So I appreciate you. And thanks for being here. Um, two final questions, I guess. One, like, tell us about what you offer and how people can find you online. That's one thing. And then the second thing, I just want to throw the final word to you and just any final encouragement, any final advice to everyone listening.

Who's maybe, yeah, just been stuck in this problem of helplessness or victim mentality. Like what's the final encouragement advice. So tell us about your work and then tell us about that final word. Sure. So I'm a trauma therapist and I do intensive outpatient trauma therapy, which typically looks like one week all day, every day for Monday through Friday.

And I [01:00:00] do human and spiritual integration workshops in person for groups or online. Uh, I have a couple of books, more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma. That's specifically about trauma, obviously. And that's available on Amazon as is fearless abundant life through infinite love, which talks a lot more about.

What my final word would be, which is really just directing those needs for connection, for being chosen, being known, being valued, being protected and provided for to the Lord first, and then aligning our thoughts with His, taking on His mind for ourselves, and by way of that, being able to become conduits of grace to others.

So that's available on Amazon as well. But I think that for me, that's the final word. It's really about plugging into the Lord first. I mean, we can talk about his love like it's a nice thing and it's, you know, it's yeah, just kind of a nice thing. It's optional, but it's like, it's, it's really everything.

It's the most powerful force there ever was. And it's [01:01:00] transformative. And I know that personally, and would never have thought that my life could look the way it does, given all the things that I had, you know, had been through. So, um, but it was boiled all down. It was all God's love. So, can't be overstated.

 I wanted to touch on one additional barrier problem that we might face, and that is, if this problem I'm facing has attracted people into my life who want to help me, what happens to those people once this problem is solved, once it goes away, will they just disappear? It is kind of a scary thought and maybe subconsciously can lead us to kind of holding on to becoming attached to whatever problems that we're facing in our life, because it kind of got us the result of getting attention and getting people, you know, to help us.

I can't tell you exactly what would happen if you were to solve that problem, uh, but I can say that if you were to intentionally or subconsciously kind of hold onto that and never outgrow that problem because it brought people into your life and in order to keep them in your life, I can say this, eventually it will [01:02:00] likely drive them away.

And I don't say that to scare you, I don't say that to make you think that everyone's going to abandon you, that's not the case. But, if we're holding on to it again subconsciously, or maybe even intentionally, to keep those people around, something's going to change. Eventually they're going to get wind of this, eventually they're going to kind of understand or have a feeling that, okay, maybe this isn't The healthiest situation because this person might be relying on me in an unhealthy way.

And so just wanted to talk through that. And I say that with a lot of grace, cause again, I've been in these situations before, but if you were to heal and outgrow that problem, then what I would say is you then would have the opportunity to build a much healthier relationship, much healthier friendship.

You'll be able to really just be a better friend to them. And that should. That should make sure that, um, you'll have a better, longer relationship with that person than if you were to just hold on to this problem that's brought them into your life. And whether or not you struggle with that, I wanted to issue a challenge to everyone listening.

And the challenge is this. If you struggle with helplessness or neediness or just never seeing much transformation in your life, Don't just talk about your problems. [01:03:00] Don't just think about your problems. Don't just listen to podcasts and read books. Those are good things, by the way. I'm not putting them down, but don't just do those things.

Take the advice, take the lessons, and put them into action. That's how you see the results. Execution, right? Even if it isn't perfect execution, even if you kind of stumble through it, even if you're not very competent at whatever it is that you're doing, that's okay. It's better to act. Even if you feel like you don't have time, whatever barrier you're facing, just Bulldoze through that barrier and execute, execute, execute, do it, do it, do it.

And I promise in time, you'll see some results. And if you want more from Margaret, I'd recommend checking out her website. That's linked in the description. We also filmed a course with her. It's called broken to whole. tactics to heal from your parents divorce or broken marriage. And by signing up, uh, you're going to learn from Margaret and again, she's an 18 year trauma therapist.

You're going to learn why the trauma of your parents divorce or family dysfunction is so damaging. You're going to learn simple tools and tactics and navigate your emotions and heal [01:04:00] tips to build healthy relationships. And the whole course is actually, Two hours long, it's not super long and it contains about 30 videos.

Most of them are two to five minutes long, so it's very digestible. You can work through it at your own pace. And by going through the course, you're going to really be armed to identify the root of your struggles, which so often is trauma, untreated trauma. You're going to feel validated and less alone in your struggles.

You're going to understand and better navigate your emotions. You'll build healthier relationships and a better life. And you're going to most importantly, avoid passing your brokenness onto the people that you love. The most. And so if you want to, um, get the course right now, it's free. That might change in the future, but right now it's for just click on the link in the show notes.

Again, you can sign up for free at this recording. It is free that again, that might change in the future. Um, and then you could begin watching the videos at your own pace. Again, just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them.

I promise you they will be forever grateful to you for sharing it. with them. I really wish someone would have done that with [01:05:00] me years ago. In closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#120: Freedom You Never Tasted But Always Wanted | Jake Khym, MA

Pending! Stay tuned.

Two years into marriage, Jake found himself enslaved to a sexual addiction. He longed for freedom but felt very stuck. As a result, he lived a double life, hiding his unwanted behavior from his wife.  

But one random day, it all came to light. At that moment, he thought his marriage was over. In this episode, he shares what happened next, plus:

• What kept his marriage from falling apart?

• How a wound of abandonment from his family drove his addiction

• 6 tips to break free from sexual compulsion or addiction

Go to Jake’s Website & Resources

Listen to our series, Healing Sexual Brokenness

Go to Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Two years into marriage, Jake found himself enslaved to a sexual addiction. He wanted to break free, but he felt so stuck. And as a result, he just continued to live a double life, hiding his unwanted behavior from his wife. But that all changed one day when it kind of randomly came to life. And at that moment, he thought his marriage was over.

And so in this episode, he shares about what happened next and much more. We talk about how shame. truly crushed him, but it didn't destroy him. He answers the question, like, what kept your marriage from falling apart? We also discuss how pride is often at the root of lust or sexual compulsions. He touched on how a wound of abandonment from his family was at the root of a lot of his behavior, and he shares six tips to break free from sexual compulsion.

Uh, or addiction. So if you or someone, you know, struggles with a sexual compulsion or addiction, especially within marriage, this episode is for you. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 100. 20. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback. One listener said this, finally, a podcast that helps me understand why my parents divorce when I was five affected me so much.

Joey's guests are articulate and every episode helps me heal. I normally avoid religious content, but this show is so focused on felt experience that it doesn't come across religious at all. Major props for that. Thank you. And I just want to say, you're so welcome. Like we do it for you. Like I know it might sound kind of cheesy, but we do it for you.

We're so happy that the show has been helpful and even healing. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot. In a gym, Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But what makes Dakota different than the insane amount of fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I would say three things. One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped duties, but he's also a good virtuous man. He's not just caught up in his looks. Another thing I'd say is he, he studied to become a priest for a little while.

And from that experience in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustine Institute, he developed this belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting all the rest, like your body. We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free to love.

And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help you get a six pack or get bigger arms or whatever. He really wants to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated. And so if you would desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and even your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this. Dakota Lane changed my life, and the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have achieved, just go to DakotaLaneFitness. com or click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Jake Kim. Jake is a Catholic leader with over 20 years of experience in various ministry settings.

He has a master's degree in counseling psychology and a bachelor of arts in theology with a concentration in catechetics. Jake has worked in adult faith formation, a seminary and in priestly formation, a diocesan evangelization, catechesis, retreat ministry, and had a private counseling practice for over 15 years.

Currently Jake offers Human and pastoral formation for Catholic leaders is a consultant to various churches and ministries across North America. He offers an annual men's retreat in British Columbia, Canada, and accompanies male leaders on their journey of faith. And he co hosts two podcasts, uh, restore the glory is one of them.

And the other one is way of the heart. Plus in this episode, he shares about a new podcast that he and his wife are going to be launching. And with two children at university, Jake currently lives in Abbotsford. Uh, BC, British Columbia up in Canada with his wife, Heather, and one of their three. Now, in this episode, we do talk about God and faith.

If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out or skip the God parts, you're still going to benefit so much from this episode.

A little bit of a trigger warning before we jump in. This obviously is a mature topic talking about sexual compulsions and addictions. And so we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around children. But with that, here's my conversation with Jake. Jake, so good to have you on the show.

I'm honored that you joined us. Thanks so much for having me, Joey. It's great to be with you. I want to get into your story. And if, if you would, I'd love to start with a little bit of background and then take us to that day when you and your wife, Heather, Heather, really difficult conversation about your struggle.

Well, the, the back story is that I, I walked into marriage under a lot of deception. I had convinced Heather that previous issues in my life weren't there anymore and she was convinced and settled and she had entered into marriage, you know, with a lot of bliss and isn't this great and, you know, and. All that you would hope and expect, but what you didn't realize is that I was hiding a lot.

Um, there was a complete double life that was going on for me and I think to make it even worse, uh, at least it feels worse to me is that I, when all of this was happening, I was working at a church and so I was, you know. leading people into the Catholic faith through RCIA. So the duplicity stung particularly because my double life was extra heightened because I was proclaiming something about not living a double life to people.

So I'm working at a parish and, and all this is going on behind the scenes. And it's not like I'm loving it or embracing it all and going, Oh, who cares? I never was. Content with this being the reality, but felt utterly defeated and honestly didn't have much hope. Confession was my close friend and that's kind of the best that I was doing.

So the day where everything, where everything hit the fan, I was in, uh, we were getting ready or we were up in our bedroom and we were just chatting about various things in life. And. It's, it's really ironic because in hindsight, I realized what happened is that I was actually sharing a story, which was very boastful.

It was a story almost patting myself on the back about how wonderful of a helper I was to people. And so I was sharing with Heather about this story, uh, about this guy who came to me for counsel about going to confession for, Sins of impurity and so I was sharing with Heather. Oh, I know and I counseled him so well And I said, oh you got to go see I said to him you got to go see father So and so he's really good at these things but father so and so, you know, he's not so good and boy look at this great counsel I gave and was very full of myself and Heather for some reason it hit her and She said Jake, how would you know which priest would be better at that?

You And that question felt like everything went into slow motion, and I had possibly, you know, the most important decision of my life right in that moment. Because there were other times where Heather had quote unquote caught me or confronted me, and I'd lied my way out of it. But for some reason, this particular day, she asked that question, and I made the decision to cross a threshold that was terrifying to me, and to start being honest with her.

And so, I think my pause, and probably the look on my face, began to communicate to her, Oh, no, we have a lot more that's going on here. And so, I think if I'm, if I recall correctly, it was probably over the course of Two days that I came completely clean about everything that was going on in our marriage and Honestly, it was it was horrible just to be blunt There was there was not a lot of consolation in it the consolation did come for me quicker than for heather for obvious reasons because the burden of a secret and an addiction is Excruciating.

And so when you no longer live under the burden, what often happens is the addict starts to feel a bit of relief. And that can be massively confusing and hurtful to the person you've hurt your spouse or somebody else, because they're watching you almost feel relief and they've just been thrown into, you know, a hornet's nest of pain.

And so that came a bit later, but the first few days were, they were terrible. Because I'm, I'm honestly thinking my marriage is over. That's genuinely what I thought. We had my oldest daughter at the time and I, it was a very real serious consider so much so that I went to work probably, you know, I think I took the first day or two off and said I was sick or whatever, and I went back to work and I.

I had a meeting with my boss, who I was very close with, and I said, I need to talk to you and I need your help. And I said, I need to learn about annulments because I think my marriage is over. And he just obviously was floored and was like, what are you talking about? So it launched into this whole conversation with him.

So that's how the day, the first kind of day went. Um, there's all kinds of nuances I could say, but that's the rough sketch. Wow. No, thank you for sharing so vulnerably and knowing you a bit, how long you've come from that day. I just want to say a little bit of a pause in the conversation. Like I admire you so much.

It's incredible. The transformation in your life. And we're going to get to that. I want to give everyone some hope. Cause I know we're in like a heavy spot right now, but man, obviously I know you'd say it's a lot of God's grace, but you just, you have to be a fighter to be able to come, come back from something like that, which I'm excited to get into one place.

I want to go to is leading up to that. You alluded to the fact that. You know, all of this was unwanted. This is unwanted sexual behavior. What did it feel like in the midst of it all? I think so often it might be easy to like skip over that, how grueling and difficult it is. But I think to people who are in the midst of that right now, it's actually really helpful to talk about that.

So what did it feel like in the midst of it? And then, you After you opened up to Heather, how did you not let the shame crush you? I think any person that has any level of addiction and some addictions are worse than others, you know, like an addiction to cookies doesn't seem to bother as many people as an addiction to pornography.

Right? So it's like, okay, so But when you kind of increase the magnitude of what you're addicted to, alcohol, any kind of pleasure, and then when you bring in sex and all of those kinds of things, I think the reason that the sexual one has greater implication, greater pain, greater sting to yourself and other people is because it taps it into deep, deep dynamics in the human person, which is we're inherently relational.

And especially when you're in a marriage and an addiction of that kind in a marriage is like a direct. Like heresy of sorts. It's like a direct countersign to the very thing you're supposedly living day to day. Alcohol maybe is a little bit less than that because it doesn't have necessarily as blatant a direct correlation, but it does.

I mean, like a person coming home drunk impacts their spouse. I'm not trying to diminish that at all. But, you know, food is a bit less than a bit kind of like for me, the sting of it gets less. And I'm sure other people who struggle in those other areas would argue the opposite. And I'm welcome them arguing that I think that's fair for them.

But when you're in the midst of it and you look at something and you feel the clutches of something around you that you honestly, sincerely believe there's no way out of, It is a horrible experience. I think it's the closest thing I've ever come to knowing what it's like to be in jail. Like, here's the reality.

I can't do anything to get out of here. I am imprisoned by this. Every effort I try, it's like trying to shake the bars of a prison cell open. Doesn't work. And you know, you, you go for a week or whatever, and you even have the slightest ounce of hope that maybe, maybe this one's different. I remember feeling like, Oh my gosh, it's been two weeks since I haven't fallen and feeling this sense of victory only to like the next day have fallen worse than maybe a six months ago.

And that repetitive cycle of defeat and shame and imprisonment is. It, it really can mess with you. And I think what eventually people probably do is they just associate because of that pain, it gets so bad, they just start to check out and they get really numb. And that's usually when the addiction gets worse is because there's this thing in psychology called a tolerance effect where what one beer would do now takes five, what.

One website does, now it takes a worse one, a more intense one. And so you're always looking for the next high and you get used to the current high. And so it increases your tolerance increases. And so the, usually the ugliness of what you do can get worse. And so that's the whole cycle is. It's brutal and it can create a lot of despair.

I know a lot of men and women who I've seen and encountered and they feel utterly defeated. They're like a shell of a person. It's like looking at someone in a concentration camp and they're like, I'm going to die in here. And I have no hope of getting out. It's terrible. Like, it's, ugh, anybody who knows it.

And that's one of the things where I have a lot of compassion on people who struggle in this area, because I know what it's like. I know the pain of these areas, and I don't wish it on anybody. Your second question about the shame, you know, it's funny, I'm not sure I didn't let it crush me, if I'm honest.

I think the shame probably did crush me. The shame even in the addiction was crushing me. The shame of telling Heather, like my stomach, I probably grew 15 ulcers in a four days and I don't, and I never knew about it. I mean the, it was, it was terrible. Like it was brutal. And I say that cause I'm not trying to candy coat this.

Like I, there's a no BS philosophy that I kind of abide by and I don't want anybody to have, you know, Oh, it's rainbows and, and flowers when you go through this thing, it's awful. Like it's, It's brutal, but it is incredibly worth it. So I think the shame actually did crush me. I, I think why it didn't destroy me is maybe how I would rephrase the question.

And honestly, I would say grace. And I would say there are things in my life that God did to me very, very early on. He set up in me, he established in me that were critical to my recovery. And I think that's for everybody. I trust that that's the case for everybody. Everybody has things that God. Has put in their soul and in their personality and in their temperament, et cetera, that is their pathway out.

They probably just don't realize it. And so here's an example of one of those for me is I'm a very competitive person. I've been competitive for since I was little, I had two older brothers and I hated to lose. And so what, what ended up happening is that very early dynamic that just felt like me and my personality.

With some of the right love and mentorship from other people, they tapped into that dynamic in me and it was like a lifeline of don't lose and it, it, it like brought fire, even a spark back into a pouring rain environment internally. And that really mattered. There was one man in particular. He's quite well known.

Christopher West was a dear friend of mine in this journey. And it was Christopher West at the time was just Christopher West. Nobody really knew who he was. He wasn't this big popular guy. He lit fires underneath me all the time. And, and he, I don't know if he could see it or it was just the Holy Spirit, but he could motivate me like, like an athlete in a locker room.

You know, you watch those YouTube things and, and people are like, I would run through a wall now because like he had that capacity and he lit things up in me that massively helped me. And created lifelines for me. I think another one that was a lifeline for me, like I first learned that all of this was wrong when I was 18, um, I went to college and I remember going into the church because honestly I was lonely and I went to university and the girl I was after didn't work out.

And now I'm like, oh crap, I'm all alone. What do I do? And it was this tug of, well, where am I going to go? Where are people going to be nice to me? I'm insecure. I'm alone. And I felt like, go to the church, they kind of have to be nice to me. So I was like, okay, so I, I go to the church and I meet some nice people and they did, they welcomed me.

Then I start going to the talks and stuff like that. And the priest was brilliant. He just started saying the truth. And one of the things he said is masturbation, pornography, sexual addiction is real and it is a mortal sin. And here's what a mortal sin is. And that scared me because he said, hell is real and you don't want to go there.

And if you don't want to go there, you need to be in the state of grace. And so I had a very quick, Oh, Oh no, Oh, this is bad. And, and for some reason, the concept of eternity haunted me like forever, like forever, forever, like jail forever. And it terrified me. And so that in turn motivated me. And he said, there's a very simple way to be in the state of grace, go to confession.

And I was like, Okay. And so at some level, I was like, I don't care. Uh, I kind of had this internal disposition of if you don't let me go to confession, father, somehow that's on you. Cause I tried and God have mercy for you, buddy. So I worked those priests as hard as you can work them, man. Like I went to confession.

A lot. A lot. Numerous times I went twice in one day. They had the Saturday morning one, and the Saturday afternoon one, and I'd hit both of them. Because I would fall that frequently. So, that was another massive motivation for me, was somebody just flat out saying, Hell is real, you don't want to go there, and there's a way out.

You need to be in the state of grace and there's a sacrament you can get, even if you're an addict, you can come to and all you need is a slightest bit of, I don't want this anymore. And the Lord takes that. He cleans it all. And I drank, I gorged on confession. That was huge for me. It's beautiful. Wow.

There's so many lessons and so many great points I'd love to comment on. One of the lessons I'm learning from you is just how essential it is to have people in your life who can love you through this, who see you as you are, not some mask, not some fake version of you, but just like Christopher West was for you.

He's been on this podcast, so people are somewhat aware of him. And, uh, man, that was just like a lifeline, like you said, something that kept you moving. And also, like, you know, I know it was such a big struggle for your wife, Heather. I'm curious, just let's stop here for a second. Like, what made you guys keep going?

Because there's a lot of couples who would just go through something like this and say, Oh, I'm done. This is, this is not what I signed up for sort of thing. What, what kept you going? Ah, this is where my gratitude for my wife is. I, I honestly struggle to express it because I, this isn't a normal expression of love.

Like my wife, Heather is, she's amazing. Like she is amazing. I don't know why. It doesn't make sense for her to stay with me. Like, if you're honest, she shouldn't have. On every natural, normal reason, I've lied through my teeth. I've destroyed her. I've been unfaithful to her. Like, what? Why? Why should you? And, Her response here has been something that I've watched her live for the next, we're coming up on 24 years married, and this happened in year 2.

So year 2, so for 22 years, I've watched her live this wholeheartedly, and that basic point is, Either the gospel is what we say it is, or it isn't. Either Jesus Christ is who he says he is, and it's real, or what in the world are we all doing? And so everything that flows from that, the church's teaching, um, vows in a marriage, fidelity, all of that stuff, either it's real or it's not.

And what she lived was, I believe it's real. And I'm not going to believe another narrative about reality other than the one that Jesus Christ presents. And honestly, I can say, Jo, I do not think I would be here if it wasn't for her. There's no question. She was the catalyst to all of this for me. I actually have thought about it numerous times.

I'm scared. It's a scary thought for me to think about where I would be if it wasn't for her, I'd probably be divorced five times. I'd probably, I mean, I don't even know. It's, it's a scary thought. I definitely wouldn't be doing any of this kind of stuff. Heather was a, I mean, she was, a massive, massive gift and grace in my life.

Like just take this on day two. I think it was day two or day three after I've confessed everything. I'm sleeping in a different room and she's not yelling at me. She's not like mad. She's deeply hurt and she's not hiding it. And day two, day three, she says to me, I want you to know that I forgive you. And, and here's the crazy part.

I don't even remember that because I was so consumed with my inner world and my pain. That's part of the dynamic is you're obsessed with yourself. That's part of the issue. I was so consumed with that. I don't even remember her saying it and she, we've had to retell the story and I, and I vaguely have this memory of it because I remember internally, I'm like, That's impossible, right?

Like you look back on it and go, that's not possible. People don't do that. This isn't real, but it is, but it's the gospel, right? It feels impossible. I was the guy caught in adultery and Heather was the one who's saying, I forgive you, but don't sin anymore. And she offered both of those to me. She said to me, she doesn't remember saying this to me, but I have this vivid memory of her saying it.

Maybe it was the Holy spirit put these words in my heart, but I felt like it came directly from her and they were. I expect you to be a man, and nothing less. That's my expectation of you. I forgive you, but it's time for you to be a man. And, what I say when I share this story with people, I'm a movie guy, and like I said, I'm inspired, I like, Competition that that's the scene for me when the Rocky music turned on in the background and it lit a fire under me because I felt like I had a second chance at life and somebody said to me, not you're the biggest loser I've ever seen.

What the hell's wrong with you? I mean, all the things she could have said, she could have rubbed my face so deep and all of that. And what she said to me is the thing I wanted to be the whole time to begin with. I, that's what I deeply desired was to be a real authentic, strong and good man. And she basically said, put up or shut up time to get in the arena.

And that, that like exploded the fire within me. And now it wasn't easy. Uh, you know, every time you see the montage in a movie where it's like they go through eight months or a year or five years of something in 30 seconds, we all go, yeah. But the friggin five years is hard, and the music stops, and it sucks, and you don't want to do it anymore, and all of that.

But those moments were utter gifts to me, and all of them were from Heather, because she trusted and believed the gospel. So beautiful. And thanks again for sharing so vulnerably. I want to backtrack a little bit because you said something that was really profound about shame and about how, you know, I think there is the scale of intensity when it comes to various addictions or, you know, unwanted behavior.

Like, I agree with you on that. And I think part of the reason that makes the sexual struggles so shameful is that As a culture, I think we look down on them, at least, you know, within like the Christian culture. And so I think, yeah, I can drive you so deep within yourself that you think, man, if I ever were to show anyone this, they would quickly and easily disown me.

And they would, you know, say all the things that, you know, Run in the back of your head, you know that I'm a failure I'm never gonna get over this and so on and I've heard people say to that What when you're in the midst of that not just believing that what you're doing is wrong, but you are wrong You are bad kind of being the definition of shame this dual identity emerges where you to the outside world and to, you know, like you said, at work and church, like you were this one person and then interiorly you were just this broken, struggling person.

And then the gap between those two gets so big, it can feel like they can't be reconciled. Like, and that's such a hopeless, hopeless place to be. Like you, you articulate it so well. I'm curious if Yeah, backtracking a little bit when it came to, what, what held you back? Was it the shame that held you back from telling Heather in the first place?

Because I imagine there were times when you were going through this and you were like, man, I just, I want to open up. I need to open up. Like, what, what was it that held you back and held you, you? To that line of lying and deceiving, it took me getting into my own story and almost understanding myself before I could really appreciate the why.

And I'd say one of the biggest reasons of why I didn't share with Heather is because I was terrified of experiences that happened earlier in my life happening again. So as a very young boy, Abandoned very early by my mom, not her fault. She had mental illness and she had extreme postpartum depression.

She had to go into inpatient mental health care. Um, so she was gone for months, uh, when I was a brand new baby. And that was an incredibly deep wound of abandonment. And then from that, the enemy just thought, Hey, let's just beat the tar out of this guy with this wound of abandonment. So every girlfriend I had, they always broke up with me.

I never broke up with them. So there's always this repeating narrative of the thing you long for the most, feminine care will always leave you. And it, it was to the depth of my being. So the thought of sharing with somebody Something that in my mind guaranteed my biggest fear to happen. I'm like, I can't do that.

So I'm in this terrible, I call it a double bind. If I go left, I'm dead. But if I go right, I'm dead. I don't know what to do. So if I share with Heather, all this, she will abandon me. But if I don't share all of this with Heather, I'm living a complete and utter lie that once she finds out she'll abandon me.

So I'm just stuck. In both places, terribly, that was probably the biggest reason, but I didn't know that that was the biggest reason until after the fact. I think another reason, if I'm just honest, the, the wounds that those dynamics, the impact of those wounds in me made me very, very selfish and self reliant.

I basically, I call it a masturbatory mentality. And this is the language I've learned. People say, Oh, I've struggled with masturbation. I think the bigger issue is that we have a masturbatory mentality, outlook, way of life. Everything becomes masturbatory. It's all about me, what I can get and my pleasure.

And so I think that dynamic goes on. It's rampant. And it was rampant in my life. Selflessness Was a very small category for me It was all about me because I believed I had to make it about me For me to be okay because no one else would take care of me or be there Those are all the lies and vows and beliefs and so I mean it sounds it's a bit crude But I was quote unquote Masturbating all the time because everything was about my pleasure and everybody else's job was to make sure I was okay So that was another reason So, I would look at Heather and justify at times my behavior because she wasn't giving me what I wanted and I was convinced this is what I need and if everybody would just give me that.

You know, the lie becomes, if I could just have pornography in real life, I'd be fine. And I believed that lie deeply. And so in my relationship with Heather, you bring that into the marriage. That's one of the issues with pornography. And then you end up deeply wounding your spouse because you're expressing disappointment in them because they're not living the lie with you.

Just as a footnote, I think that's a very dangerous thing that happens for a lot of couples is their spouses that believe that's the remedy. Give them what they want. And then they begin to compromise their own dignity, and that just creates all kinds of more interesting and troublesome dynamics. So, selfishness is kind of what I'm saying here.

Massive selfishness and terrible fear of abandonment. And then I would say the last one was, I honestly didn't have the kind of relationship with God to where I sincerely trusted he would actually satisfy me. And so I'm living this life with God and going, yeah, God's good. And, you know, I say all the right stuff.

I'm passing all the multiple choice tests, but if I'm honest, Will God actually satisfy me to this depth? No, I don't think he goes there. I mean, you know, you look at all the stuff that we're formed in and all the false formation and prudishness that enters into our, our world and we call it holiness. We call it prudence, but it's actually manichaeism, which means body, bad spirit, good.

You know, we, we adopt some of these heresies without even realizing it. And then we shut out. The very grace of God in our lives. And so I believed God can't satisfy me. So you throw that combo together. That was gnarly. I was like, man, I'm not going there. No, it's so profound. And I love how you tied lust and pride together.

I don't think a lot of people make that connection, but I think it's so potent. I heard that St. Augustine once wrote that lust is the sin of the proud. And, and I think like you said so well, it's so true because at the core of lust of using another person for own pleasure. It's, you know, obviously an extreme amount of selfishness, which is pride.

And so I think one of the antidotes, which I know we're going to get to in a second here, is an incredible amount of humility of, and obviously valuing like the worth, the dignity, the value, you know, of another person, seeing their pain, seeing, you know, their desire to be loved and just understanding how Our behavior of salvageness just destroys them in so many ways.

And so I love how you guys were able to kind of go from that place into just a much healthier, more beautiful place. And so many things you had, I would love to comment on, but I know we don't have forever today. I could talk to you forever, but I'm curious if there was, um, if there was anything else that you would say that that sexual compulsion addiction Uh, was, was filling, like, if there are any other needs, cause you, you outlined it so well how it went back to the abandonment one, but I'm just curious if there's anything else you would say like this need or this thing was filling this need.

Yeah, I, I would say I'm a very, I'm like, you know, like when you talk about the five love languages and those kinds of things, physical touch is very high for me. So I'm a sensual person and I'm, Stereotypically male where I'm highly visual, I'm very sensual. And so what the pornography was doing was just almost like meeting me to a depth that I felt.

And so in some ways it was this perfect assault on me because it's deeply visual, highly erotic. All of these things that I kind of at baseline feel, and I think I'm, I'm, I don't think everybody's that way, or if they are, I don't know that. And so pornography had like this perfect concoction for me and passion, like I'm a passionate guy.

I'm a pretty intense guy when I play a sport like I, I go all in, I'm an all in kind of person. And so what you see. One of the twists of pornography is that it meets you in that space. And the lie that it suggests is you won't find this elsewhere. In other words, when you hear and look at the passion of Jesus Christ, you don't equate that to a satisfaction of Eros.

Most people don't link those. They go, that's the opposite of Eros. And I think one of the dilemmas that we have is that we, we assume making a gift of ourself, which is. The passion of Christ, the cross doesn't satisfy. This to me is one of the crux issues with Christianity and the gospel and Jesus's message is we, we don't believe in when we say, when you lose your life, you'll find it.

I think that's a, that's a line in the sand that few people actually cross over to believe. And so we think we actually have to take care of ourselves. And so they go, where am I going to go? I want it to be really good, highly intent, blah, blah, blah. And it's, this is the brutal thing of pornography. It's affordable.

They call it the three A's. It's affordable, meaning I don't have to pay much to get it. It's anonymous. No one's going to watch me. And it's easily accessible. Affordable, anonymous, and accessible. That is a real tough one. And this is one of the issues with the advent of modern technology is, you know, back in the 70s or 80s, early 90s, to partake of pornography, More guts than it does now.

And so you had to, you had to have a bigger desire. So it had a threshold that a lot of people just wouldn't push through. And in some ways it prevented a lot of issues, affordable, accessible, anonymous, man, that is rampant right now. So, um, anyway, I feel like I'm digressing. No, no, it's so good. And so relevant to what we're talking about.

Cause you're right. It's so, it comes at you so aggressively. And I think not only men, but also women now are struggling in so many different ways when it comes to just lacking self mastery in the realm of sexuality. But also, I think, like you said so well earlier on, there's something about our sexuality that just hits on so many components of the human person.

And so, We're all, you know, I think so many people have been through trauma. They carry broken with brokenness with them through life, especially our audience who's coming from, you know, really broken dysfunctional families that the kind of sexual release is just so attractive because it feels in the moment that it kind of satisfies those needs to satisfy that brokenness for a moment.

At least you feel some level of relief and maybe even wholeness. I don't know if I'd use that word exactly, but when you have, uh, I'm trying to be Veiled with my language when you have a full experience of a sexual act what literally goes on Neurologically for you is an is a very intense bonding cycle And so what it's created to do is one of the most powerful things on the face of the planet It's to take two people and to have this repeated experience where they keep bonding and keep bonding and keep bonding and get closer And deeper and closer and closer and closer because the Lord's saying I want to show you what I want you Us to look like, meaning God and the person.

I want to give you a sign of what that looks like and how deeply bonded I want to be with you. Well, it's like he, you know, this is the joke. Like when God's pouring the chemicals together to make reality that he like slipped and he like poured too long in this domain and we're like, Whoa, why'd you put so much of that one in this one?

And we go like, back off a bit. And so we feel like we got to counteract God's design, but that's just not true. Like he got it right the first time. And what he's desiring is that level of intense bonding intimacy with us. Like this is the four and all these domains is exactly what heaven Is it's the fulfillment of all the desires that we have they're put back into right order and I think that's where people just go no way heaven's full of angels and organ music and ice cream like that's we put all these random categories together and go such a trite definition of it and so C.

S. Lewis has this concept of, there's no desire that God can't satisfy. I think what people struggle with is they go, well, I have desires. He won't satisfy my way. Okay. Yes, that is the issue, but a desire that's unsatisfiable. No. That's hard to believe. Oh, just pick up your cross. That's going to make me happy.

Baloney. I'd rather go do this other thing. And this is where the cross is not easy. This is where GK Chesterton says things like Christianity to be, has not been tried and found wanting. It's been found difficult and left untried. Like it is not for the faint of heart, this call to be a disciple of Jesus.

But what you see over and over and over and over with the people who took it serious, we call those people saints. They were deeply satisfied. I would call them the happiest people that have ever lived. Now you might look at them at face value and go, they look sad. Look at the artwork that shows them.

And I'm going, uh, you might not realize all the depth that's going on. Right? Don't judge a book by its cover. I had somebody recently say, Jake, why don't you smile bigger? And I was like, I thought I was smiling. Like, I'm actually happy when I'm making this face, you know? So, there's a bit of that maybe going on.

But, um, Wow. No, no. Profound and so good. And I think this gets to the root of so many struggles in our relationship with God, where I think father, uh, Michael Galey said that the, I think the core problem is that we don't actually trust God because we don't believe he's good. And we think that, He's holding out on us.

We think that he's putting us through these ridiculous rules and regulations and just trying to stifle us so that we don't experience the joy and the pleasure that we could experience on our own. And so like you articulated so well, and I've experienced this in my life too. We just think, well, I really don't believe that God's going to take care of me, come through for me, satisfy me.

So I'm just going to take care of it myself. And that, you know, can look like any number of. unhealthy behavior, but I think that's where the world is right now. And it's so sad and you're right. Like when you go through that, the cross and you go through just living life as it was meant to be lived, even though it's not pain free, it's not easy.

There's like a deeper level of satisfaction of meaning of, of joy that you receive that it's hard to articulate unless you go through it. Yes. I am eternally grateful to John Paul the second. And Christopher West, because the whole anthropology of the theology of the body, particularly how do I manage desire, was them.

Like I, all of that has been formation from them being able to situate the deepest longings of my heart within a context where does, where satisfaction is real and it's also holy. So for example, the concept of freedom. For me, freedom meant Do what I want, when I want, how I want it, so I get the biggest bang for my buck, the biggest return.

And then another concept of freedom was put in, was offered to me, which was, freedom is not living in jail. It's not, because you can do all the things you want within a jail, but you're still in a jail. You're still locked up, you're not actually free, you don't have the capacity to have your yes be yes and your no be no.

Something else is pulling you around like a puppet. But you have to be brutally honest to admit, man, I can't actually do and say what I want here. I'm in bondage. So getting the permission to do whatever I want is different than the capacity. Do I even have the capacity to love somebody? Do we even have the capacity to say no?

So that spin for me was huge. And then to say, what if you can be free and be satisfied? And I was like, that's impossible, right? And it's just so subtle that these narratives get in there. And basically what they taught me was, now you're looking Jesus Christ right in his face and he's saying to you, I can't.

Will you follow me because I promise you I can, and that is a shattering, rattling reality. An author put it this way that I love. When you encounter Jesus as he truly is, you will either turn away from him because you can't handle what he's offering, or you will shamelessly worship him. And that I love that articulation because it captures my experience and I think the honest experience people have when they encounter Jesus as he actually is with all the, all the garbage drapery that we put around him.

Like when you peel all that stuff away and you look Jesus Christ square in the eyes, his offer is life. And he even says it. To the full life to the full is what I'm offering to you. Wow. Wow. Wow. And I love the point you made about freedom. Cause I think people feel that strongly today. Like they want freedom, right?

They don't want to be tied down. They don't want to be, so to speak. They don't want, you know, shackles, but like you said, so often we're slaves to certain behaviors or whatever attachments that we have in our life that we don't even realize. We just think that, no, I choose this thing. But if we ever tried to stop it, it would be like, no, I couldn't really do it.

And I love that definition you gave. And I, the way I've kind of thought about it too, in the past is. The greatest measure of freedom, in my opinion, is, like you said, your capacity to love. The greater your capacity to love, the more free you are. The less your capacity to love, the less free you are. And I think a lot of even moral issues can be looked at through that lens.

And so that, that shifted things for me, especially when I was younger and struggling with, you know, lust and pornography and masturbation, all that stuff. It was, you know, realizing that it was holding me down. And, and there's, it's almost like you can't. You know, I know Christopher Walsh uses the analogy of like eating junk food from a dumpster.

You know, it's like, you can't really imagine what like, you know, an amazing ribeye would taste like when you're in the midst of that. But once you taste it, you're like, my goodness. Like, this is like a world of a difference that I never even knew because I never experienced it. But once you do, you're like, wow, there's something else on the other side.

And I think that's what I want people to hear. From your whole story, like there's something better on the other side that maybe you can imagine or experience or, um, yeah, there's something burning within me that I want to say to people because I, and I almost want to remind my former self of this. So you, you take me back 30 years and, um, Uh, you're looking at a teenage version of me walking up to a beautiful woman and having the integrity of heart to simply love her and not grasp after her felt impossible.

But I can do that now. And the satisfaction that comes from walking up to a beautiful woman and not having this thing within me, that's trying to fantasize or what if, or if I played my cards right, you know, all that stuff that's twisted and distorted within you, and to be able to say it in freedom and to make that a gift to them and they feel and see that you have no ulterior motive.

Watch what that does. It is amazing. I have, what I love about that is that when you start to taste and see what love is like, and to be a lover in all of the right contexts and ways as a, as a husband, as a father, as a brother. To be able to, with utter congruence to walk up to somebody and bless them and not need anything from them.

The life that goes into that person is like stuff you've never seen before. And what that takes is an integrity of heart. Like that, that's not easily won. You don't cheaply go up there. This is one of the things I love about the feminine soul. Their BS meter is so sensitive. It is such a gift, and it's terrifying all at the same time.

And so they can smell your macho BS from so far away. And so what that demands is an utterly clear minded, solid man. And when you can offer that to them, the life that comes into them is like nothing you've ever seen on any false version of pornography. And it's live. And you get to do that all the time.

Like, I'm not recommending going up to everybody and go, Hey, you're beautiful. Hey, you're beautiful. Cause now that starts to get distorted and probably be about you. But imagine your heart is so conformed unto Christ that you are literally moved by what moves his heart. And so you go up to people and you want to love them and you become a lover.

And the right context, an untwisted version of being a lover of people. It is the most satisfying thing in the world, dude. It is unbelievably wonderful for men to, to love men and women. Well, like it's the best, it really is the best. And then to have that capacity to love in a unique and particular relationship where those words.

Can become flesh and you mean it into your bones and to make that gift of someone to someone and for them to receive that gift from you and to have it all be true and good and beautiful and passionate. There's nothing like that. And so, we, we, we, we settle, C. S. Lewis says it this way, we settle for playing in dirty mud puddles when we're made for the holiday at the sea.

And what I'm trying to emphasize is, I have gone on the holidays, I've tasted the holidays that C. S. Lewis references. They're amazing. Like they are worth it. They're incredibly satisfying and they're not cheap. They require a total and complete. Yes. Of the person who wants to realize that reality, but that's what makes them matter.

Like. The, the stuff that we get these days, because it's cheap, like cheap love, cheap respect, cheap praise, it's so shallow. And then you wonder why people are depressed and have no meaning. It's because everything's lost its value. But when you raise a standard. And you hold that standard. The thing has value again.

Like this is one of the things that like with athletics, I'm being an, I like athletics when they start changing all the rules and all the old people who played the sport are like, you can't do this. Like, come on, like, you don't get to change the thing. Cause that compromises the whole point of it all.

You show up and you either won or you lost. You're either better than them or you're not. And there's no other way to prove it other than getting on the mat and showing It is instant. reality right in front of you. And if you want to get better, it takes a lot of dedication and hard work. It just, it is what it is.

You're either going to embrace it or not. There's no games. I love that. It's not cheap. So good. So good. And I think we need to hear about that more. So I'm so glad you, we spent so much time here because I think people, when they're stuck in an addiction or compulsion, They, yeah, lack the motivation and they don't think what's waiting on the other side is worth it.

It's like, no, I'm more comfortable here. And I remember Jay Stringer in his book, he has like this awesome quote about how you have this kind of maddening fight with freedom in the midst of an addiction or compulsion. And I think this gets to the heart of it, because we actually don't think that's what's waiting on the other side is better.

We think what we're in the midst of is so much better. And so feel free to comment on that. But I wanted to shift gears a little bit in the time we have left to kind of fill the gap. We've kind of contrasted what your life was like then to what it's like now, which is just beautiful. Feel free to add anything there.

But I'm curious what happened in between, if there's any particular steps or principles or lessons that you would like to pass on to everyone listening, especially people who maybe find themselves where you were years ago. Yeah, there's numerous things that were very important, you know, over the years I've tried to categorize them and what's difficult about just labeling with.

You know, Oh, here's the five easy steps to pornography recovery. Like it's never that, that that's cheap. And so I don't mean to cheapen it. Like these are very real and there's a lot of depth to them, but I mentioned one before and that would be the sacraments in particular confession. Confession changes lives.

It's a real encounter with supernatural capacity. In particular, in the areas of healing and forgiveness and the grace to be able to not sin again. You, you can't find that anywhere else. You might not be able to see it, but there are lots of things we can't see that are very, very real. So I would say sacraments are very high on the list and use them a lot, go a lot to them.

You know, confession, I'm not encouraging scrupulosity, but I'm saying if you're in an addiction. Go to confession every week go to confession every three days like what I love about my region is I can find confession like Anywhere the next day, right? So just yesterday I was like it was the I'm gonna timestamp this but We're recording this right after the Feast of St.

Joseph. And so Big feast day for me. And I was like, you know what? I just want to go to confession and I could. So I'm really grateful for the priests out there who offer that because it's a huge thing. So sacraments, I would say another one that was very big for me that you mentioned as well, which is other people.

You cannot get through this alone. And there's different kind of types of people that you need. I needed a Christopher West who was like the trainer at the gym. Who's Got the right dose of, come on, you can do this, as well as helping me analyze my, you know, what I'm doing and not doing. But I also had a lot of people who were exceptionally kind.

The guy who I mentioned, who I shared my story with at work and the annulment thing. The first thing he said to me was, Jake, hold your head high. And, and I was like, what did you just hear what I just said? And he said he was fighting for me right in that moment. The brilliance of that man to begin battling shame on my behalf, like in his third statement, it was utterly brilliant.

Hold your head high. You are now fighting a good fight. Like. Oh, that phrase just rang in my ear. So I needed other people. I needed to go to counseling. I needed healing. And so I went to many versions of counseling and basically I've never stopped. I've been in counseling ever since that whole journey started with me.

I've never stopped because I have perpetual areas that I need to address. This area isn't there anymore, but that doesn't mean there aren't other areas that I need to address. So, I went into healing, lots of it, and I just said, I meant this is my path and I'm not getting off of it, because this is what it means to be a Christian.

This is the gospel message, perpetual healing. My prayer life I had to take very seriously. And I made things practical. I made a bet with a buddy, because money was precious when you're young and you're early married and you got new family, so I made a bet with a friend. If one of us misses, uh, we had, we committed to an hour, a holy hour, you have to pay the other guy a hundred bucks.

And that stung. And so it was like, I'm not missing. And you know what? Heather was like, you're not missing. Get your butt up and pray. Cause we don't have a hundred dollars to spare. And I was like, it's not in the budget. Yeah. It's not in the budget. You being lazy is not on the budget. So I needed that.

Another one was fasting. Fasting was very important to me. I had to strengthen my will muscle. That's Christopher West's brilliance. He said, Jake, you go to the gym for your body, but you're not going to the gym for your soul. And part of the going to the gym for your soul is fasting. And so I committed to a bread and water fast on every Friday.

And it was hard. I did not like it. And it wasn't brutal, like I'd go to Panera Bread and I'd get the nicest stinkin bread that I could find. Cause I was like, I don't know, and I, I even eventually got to the point where butter counted. So, I don't know if that was cheating. The point was, I was strengthening a muscle, which was my will muscle.

And I would say the last thing was just truth. I needed to fill, fill myself with a ton of truth. Not just truth like, oh, the church teaches, yes, that. But also, this is the truth about my identity. This is the truth about why I do what I do. This is the truth about God. And I had to fight for those truths to actually, like, find root within my soul.

For the soil to be turned over to be able to anything to have root. Because, like, my life at that point was like a hurricane and you're trying to plant a garden in a hurricane. Like, you gotta really protect some of those things. for them to actually grow and get strong enough. So that's kind of the rough categories that I would say.

No, it's super helpful. And I love that you highlighted the point, like as helpful as all those principles are and those tactics that healing is deeply personal, that it might look a little bit different in different people's life. But I think so many of those components, um, I know in my story were present when I've experienced the most amount of healing.

And so especially I would just double down on that whole vulnerability point of like having someone in your life who just knows everything about you, who you can just share everything about you and who they're just going to love you in spite of it all. Um, it's, it's beyond healing. It's beyond helpful.

It's something that can transform you. Yeah, there, maybe I can nuance that for a little bit. There, there are two types of people that I find helpful and both are needed. And that, and that was represented by Christopher and Tom. Tom was the guy who said, hold your head high. And so as I've seen that over the years and becoming somebody who's worked with people in these regards, I've found that both kinds of people are necessary.

So. The kind that I will love you no matter what. And I will love you in the midst of the sin and the ugliness, et cetera. And Christopher did that for me. He also was a wonderful version of accountability because he wasn't okay with excuses. And so I think a lot of the problem is that people have an accountability partner and what they give each other permission to do is to just get away with whatever.

And so I, I challenged a group of men I was working with one time. And this is one of the best stories I've ever heard. I challenged a group of men one time to actually do real accountability with each other. And so there was a group of men and they came in and one guy kept coming and saying is falling.

And another guy in the group said, I promised you, I promised you. I would help you. And if you come back next week and you say you've fallen again, I will take care of this problem for you. And the guy was like, what? So we're all like, Whoa, what does this mean? The guy comes back the following week. He says, I fell again.

And the guy who promised him said. I'll take care of it. So I'm like, what is going on? So now it's the next week and there is all kinds of issues between these two guys. Well, here's what the guy did. He knew that the way that this guy fell was through the internet and through buying things on TV, he went over to his house.

And he ripped the cable box off of his house and cut all the cable wires, ripped it off, like holding the head of Medusa in his hands and left it on his porch and drove away. So he had no access to the internet. He couldn't get any access to anything. I think that's illegal, what he did, but the commitment was so amazing.

They were the one guy who had his house. Assault was not happy because then he had to pay the company to come back out and fix it and blah, blah, blah. But I went, that's the kind of thing. I'm not promoting illegal behavior, but that's the kind of thing that the guy was serious. He was like, Either I'm, either I'm whole, I'm loving you or I'm not like, uh, so I love that story.

And so good. Maybe that guy's in jail for doing that for other people. No, so good. No, I think it hits on that whole thing. When we're trying to help someone, we need to go in with both truth and love. We can't just love them and, you know, say, well, You know, what you do doesn't matter. No, it does. We need to hit them with the truth and say, no, no, you're, you're called to more than this and you can beat this.

And yeah, I'm going to be standing right there through it with you, but I'm not going to let you fall prey to mediocrity and just like living this life. That's never going to end because that's just depressing. So, so much good stuff there. I want to, um, just get kind of fire. A few questions that you, when it comes to someone listening right now, Who is in that spot that you were in, maybe in their marriage or leading up to marriage in a dating relationship even.

I know those are two different things. So maybe let's just focus on marriage for the sake of this. So what would you say to that person? Like, where do they go first? And I'm curious, do you always advise sharing your struggle with the spouse? Yeah, good questions. I'll be brief. The first things I would say is you're not going to go anywhere if you're not honest.

And so step one is getting honest with the reality of the situation. Christopher did the same thing to me, and he said, you've got to be honest about do you actually want this? Because he said, you can actually want it, and that looks a particular way. Or you can want it. To want it, or you can like the idea of wanting it, that's not wanting freedom, and you just need to be honest about where you're at.

Do I want it? Do I want to want it? Or do I hope to one day want to want it? You know? You've got to situate yourself there. Cause there you're least honest. You have to be honest at first. Then I would say the next step is what do you believe will happen with regard to a journey of transformation? And you need to look for the lies there.

So for example, it's impossible. I said that. I said that all the time. Obviously I'm sitting here proving that wrong, but I believed it. So I believed a lie. So I have to look at what I believe about a process of change and actually examine it and, and, and examine that for lies. And usually you need to do that with someone else.

Amongst all the other stuff, I would say the last one is something I've learned from The Navy SEALs. And I think the reason I say that is because Navy SEALs are people who do extremely difficult things and you can learn a lot from them. There's a friend of mine who's a Navy SEAL. He's a retired Navy SEAL.

And I've talked to him about all these things. And he said, getting free of pornography addiction is an equivalent to going through hell week. So if you know anything about the Navy SEALs, he said, and he's been through hell week. He's been through hell week. So he has real life experience. And he said, I respect any man who has worked through an addiction, man or woman, but we're talking about men work through an addiction of pornography.

He said, you are like us when you've done this. That was huge motivation for me. But one of the things that they teach there is what's called micro goals. The principle is you will never make it through hell week. When you think about the entire week at the same time, You'll quit because it's overwhelming.

So what you have to do is draw your attention, which isn't easy, but it is possible. Draw your attention back until the next thing you're focusing on is reasonable and achievable. And that might be. All I have to focus on is the next 30 minutes. And if that's the sobriety journey that you're in is all my goal right now is the next 30 minutes.

And I'm working hard because it's not instantly happening. I'm working hard to hold my attention to being holy, being pure, and being free. For the next 30 minutes, I'm breaking down this lifelong journey into a goal. That's reasonable and achievable. It's micro goals. That's how they survive extremely difficult things like hell week.

And they train that and they practice that. And then they embody it. I think that's essential to recovery is micro goals. You have to break this whole thing down into realistic parts. And. That doesn't magically happen. That is intentional. Soon as you think about, I'm going to have to go seven years without ever struggling, you're done.

It's too big. You're done. It'll crush you. You got to think about the next 10 minutes, day, week, whatever is manageable to you. So good. And proof that that work is that works is, um, the lone survivor story of Marcus Luttrell, who's a Navy SEAL, who you guys might know this story. He was, um, essentially just left without a team in the mountains in Afghanistan.

And he actually using that exact tactic that Jake just taught, he actually crawled on his belly with like a broken femur. He, his nose was collapsed into his face. Sorry, this kind of graphic he had. bitten through his tongue. Um, he was on his belly, like running from likely hundreds of enemy fighters. He, he would take a stick and draw a line in the sand in front of him.

And he said, if I can just get past that line, I'm going to live. And he did that again. He did that for seven miles. seven miles. And so it works, it works. And so, so, so good. And I think one of the biggest lies I just want to touch on briefly when it comes to, um, breaking free from sexual compulsion addiction is that I'm going to beat it myself.

I'll figure out a way to be yourself. That's a complete lie. And I know you can, we can do a whole nother show on that. But, um, the, the final thing I just wanted to make sure we touched on was just your ministry. You have so much more to offer here. I mean, this, Episode is a proof of it. So please tell us about it.

What do you guys offer and how can people find you online? Yeah, I'd say that the simplest thing is to go to our website life restoration C A, C A is for Canada, we're in Canada. So Life Restoration Ministries is what we do and in that we do all kinds of various things. The biggest thing that we offer is we want people to encounter Jesus and we want people to experience the maturation and healing of their humanity.

So, human formation, healing, encounter with Jesus, that's what we're all about. So, if you're kind of looking at going, what's the nuance here? Human formation is a big nuance. Encounter with Jesus is a big nuance. Um, but we do that through conferences, podcasts, like, podcasts. Uh, we have a podcast and Joe, you've been on ours, which was a great gift to us.

So Heather has a podcast, my wife, she and I run it together, abiding together. I have a podcast called restore the glory. Heather and I are actually going to be starting our own podcast together. It's one of our ministries and podcasts are a thing we love to do. So they'll, that will be one. We do conferences and talks and formation courses, et cetera.

But if you go to the website, you get a sense of all that. And Joey, I, I'm sorry, I know I'm way over time, but I, you, you had asked a question about. Do you say to your spouse or do you not? And I think I'll answer that very, very simply. I wish there was an easy black or white answer. I don't think there is one, but here is one thing I will say in my experience.

I don't know anyone, and I'm sure they exist, but I don't know anyone who hasn't told their spouse and gotten through it. I say that as a field note from my experience. Now, hundreds of people could write in and say, Hey, I great. I just don't know about them. I have a lot of stories of people who have broken free when their spouse was on the journey with them and their spouse was aware.

That's my story. So. That's one comment I would make. But back to the other thing, life restoration podcast, you know, retreats, et cetera, go to that website. Love that. And one piece of advice on that for everyone listening. I've heard that when you do tell your spouse, you want to make sure there's someone else present there who is some have some level of competence in this, because then your spouse has somewhere to go to, to talk about these things and not just between the two of you.

So I've heard that's a really, really helpful tactic. Yeah, we don't want to be flippant. Like, I mean, It's not about you. That's the thing. Um, I mean, we, yeah, we could do a whole other episode just about that, but there's a lot of differing opinions there, but love them. The point is to love them. It's not to get you out of the doghouse or to get you better.

Remember, it's not about you. The point is, what do they need? How can I love them well? Okay. No. So good. And Jake, thank you so much for coming on the show. I could talk with you forever and just such good content, good advice. I want to give you the last word, like what's one final piece of encouragement that you would give to everyone listening, especially someone who finds himself where you were years ago.

Trust Jesus. It sounds cliche, but when you are with him, when you're facing his direction, even if it feels like you're so far away, you don't lose. You never lose. When you are close to Jesus facing him, trust him, it's worth it. So good. Jake is amazing. And it's really an understatement to say that if you want to really soak in all the wisdom that he has to offer, uh, relistening to that episode is a smart move.

But I wanted to highlight the six tips that he gave to break free from sexual compulsion or addiction. Uh, one is sacraments like confession. He mentioned two, People someone to coach you and really hold you accountable through this whole process of breaking free a three therapy to heal the brokenness that drives that behavior for his prayer to tap into strength.

That's beyond your own five is fasting to grow your self control yourself mastery muscle. And six is truth to bury those lies. How to keep you stuck. And if you want more content like this, I highly recommend checking out Jake's website and the podcast that he hosts. Um, but I'd also humbly recommend our podcast series called healing sexual brokenness.

It's a six part series where we just offer a lot of tactics and resources from experts on how to overcome unwanted sexual behavior. So you can find freedom. And it's so relevant for people like us who come from divorce and broken families, because one expert found that 90 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction actually come from a broken family, pretty mind blowing.

And so if you want to listen to that, there's two ways you can do that. Uh, in your podcast app, you can just, once you've selected our show, you can just search. Healing, sexual brokenness, and you'll see all of those episodes. Um, or you can just click on the link in the show notes of this episode, which will take you to restored ministry.

com slash sexual brokenness again, restored ministry. com slash sexual brokenness, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, if you take like 20 seconds out and message them, I promise you they will be so grateful.

And in closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#119: Broken is What Happened to Me, Not Who I Am | Stacey

After her parents divorced, my guest felt abandoned and badly hoped it was all a dream that she could just wake up from. Dealing with all the brokenness that followed led her down a path of feeling stuck and thinking her brokenness defined her. 

Thankfully, she realized that “‘broken’ is what happened to me, not who I am.” In this episode, we touch on that and more:

• How just having the pain of your parents’ divorce validated is incredibly helpful and often the first step of healing

• The many emotional problems she’s had to battle, including anxiety, depression, anger, self-hate, control, and loneliness

• The tendency in people like us to allow fear to hold us back and cause us to play it safe, but how healing can free us from fear

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

After her parents divorced, Stacey felt abandoned and really hoped it was all just a bad dream that she could wake up from. And dealing with all the brokenness that followed from that led her to feeling really stuck and like her brokenness defined her. But thankfully, she realized that broken is what happened to me, not Who I am.

And so in this episode, we discuss all of that and more like how just having the pain of your parents divorce or your broken family validated by someone else is incredibly helpful. And often the first step of healing. She shares really vulnerably the many emotional problems that she's had to battle with over the years connected to.

The breakdown of her family and her parents, uh, divorce. She shares things like anxiety, depression, anger, loneliness, self hate, and even a tendency toward control. We also touch on how healing hurts, but we need to act in order to heal despite the pain. The pain, we also discussed the tendency in people like us from broken families to allow fear to control us and hold us back.

And really that causes us to play it safe in life, but how healing can free us from that fear. And we also offer some advice like how getting outside of yourself and loving other people can actually be incredibly. Healing. So stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage.

So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 119.

As I often say, we're so happy that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback from you. One listener said this, she said, The podcast has helped me to not feel crazy for feeling certain ways and situations and relationships. It has helped me to realize why I am the way I am and learn about myself through that.

It has helped me face up to certain realities about my past, and it is just nice to hear the nuanced explanations about rare cases when divorce is necessary, like for the family safety that happened in my own family. Thank you again. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthier, perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you. This is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, and 75 year olds and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment. But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I want to mention three things.

One, he's done it himself. He's, he's a very ripped, strong, strong man. Dude, uh, he's also just a good man. He's not just worried about his body and fitness, but about every area of his life. Uh, second thing is they actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And from that experience, uh, in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully.

Human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body, we really need to care for it all. So we can become more virtuous and free to love. And the third thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people get strong or ripped. It's really to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

And so if you desire freedom, if you desire that transformation of your body and even your life, Dakota can help you. One client of his said this, Dakota Lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny.

If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further. Dakota Lane. Is your man to see what Dakota offers and the amazing transformations, uh, that his clients have had. Just go to his website, Dakota lane fitness. com. You can even Google that Dakota lane fitness.

com, or you can click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Stacy. Stacy is a wife of almost 25 years and the mom of three young adult children, one of whom will be married this year. As a child of divorce herself, she has a tender heart for children and teens suffering from the effects of their parents.

divorce. Stacey and her husband, Jamie, spent 19 years on their parish, uh, pre Cana marriage prep team where they gave their testimony and shared the beauty of living out God's plan for marriage and sexuality. Her experience as a latch key kid greatly influenced her decision, uh, to stay home with her children, whom she homeschooled for 10 years.

And when Stacey heard of restored and heard of this podcast, she thought I could have used that as a kid. And so she hopes that sharing her story will help others on their journey toward restoration. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here.

This is not a strictly religious podcast. Anyone who's been listening for a while knows that. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to learn a lot. And this episode is going to help you, I promise.

With that, here's my conversation with Stacy. Stacy, welcome to the show. Hi, Joey. Good to be here. I'm excited to speak with you and really appreciate you. Yeah, sticking your neck out the hair and being willing to, you know, come on and help the younger people to just navigate all the brokenness in their families.

And I know like me, you, you know, come from a broken family as well. And so I'm curious, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced and to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing? What happened? Um, I was 10 when they separated. Um, and it was presented as, you know, we're getting separated, but, you know.

When you hear that as a kid, you're like, uh, that means divorce, you know? Um, initially there was, you know, I could tell there was tension between my parents. There was some fighting going on. Um, at some point my mom kind of like moved into my bedroom and I was moved into my sister's bedroom. And, um, eventually I actually overheard her telling my grandmother.

I was, like, on the stairs near our kitchen, and she was in the kitchen, and I overheard her telling my grandmother that they were getting separated. And then eventually she told me. Um, herself. Um, so yeah, so that's how I found out. And it was pretty traumatic. I can imagine. And was this something that kind of, even though you saw the problems within the marriage, was it kind of out of the blue that they were separate and getting divorced?

Or did you kind of predict that that was coming? You know, I don't recall feeling like that was going to happen. Like I knew that things weren't good, but I. I don't know. I don't know if a little, as a little kid, you like fathom that. And you know, I'm a little older, I think than you're most of the people that you talk to.

So this was back in the early eighties when there aren't weren't as many divorced families, um, as there are now. So I didn't know that many kids. I don't know how, I don't even know if I knew any kids whose parents were divorced. Um, so it just, yeah, probably wasn't as much on my radar than maybe it would be for someone today.

Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. It's definitely become somewhat normalized even though it's still, it's kind of this weird thing where we, yeah, divorce is kind of this normal part of life, but we don't really talk about it in the sense of how it is impactful and harmful for the kids. Yeah. And so, yeah, I totally know what you're saying, but is that that extra like stigma that you had to fight through?

I'm sure it was not an easy thing to go through. Yeah. I mean, I remember feeling so ashamed. Um, like going to school knowing so we had My mom was the one we moved out. Um, so, um, my dad stayed in the house for a little while. We moved out, which meant we had to actually move to a, um, new school. And, um, we were only about 15 minutes from where we were, but it was.

You know, far enough that it was a new school. So I had to go to school and I had to tell people that I was leaving and I was so ashamed to tell them that it was because my parents were getting divorced. And, um, so yeah, there was like this stigma there. And, um, I remember I had this wonderful teacher. I was in fifth grade and I told her and she, she actually, Bought me lunch and like sat with me and, you know, talk to me and stuff.

Um, tried to make me feel better in whatever way she could make me feel better. No, that totally makes sense. And wow, that's impressive that that teacher would do that. I, the response that we've heard a lot of times, there was one young woman who came on the podcast and she said that she told her teachers, she told her friends and everyone kind of knew also, cause it was a little bit of a public separation, she said, and everyone acted like it wasn't a big deal.

Everyone acted like it was kind of like a normal part of life kind of like, okay, you know, whatever move on with it And I remember she said she felt so hurt by that because who she was like wait Why am I struggling so much with this if everyone says this is for the best? This is everyone's gonna be happier and I'm so hurt by it.

Maybe something's wrong with me And I think that's a very common response So it's awesome you had a teacher at least who tried to acknowledge that yeah, man This is a difficult thing to go through. Well, I mean You Generally speaking, she was the anomaly. Like generally speaking, that's. That's how it was for me as well.

It was kind of like, oh, you know, kids are resilient, they'll, they'll be okay. Like there's, there seems to be this unwillingness, um, by the adults to acknowledge that divorce is harmful to children, even people who I can understand that with people who actually get divorced because. You know, they're probably trying to make themselves feel a little bit better about it.

Um, but like people who haven't been through divorce, even in our culture, it just seems to be, yeah, just a lack of acknowledgement of the effects that it can have on, on kids and, and this desire to, to minimize it. And honestly, I, that happened to me all through my teen years, even my young adult years, even into my thirties.

Um, I did have. You know, a couple of people along the way who noticed my brokenness, but there was still this unwillingness until I was probably in my thirties. I had a, a therapist who finally said to me like, Oh no, like that's, that's your big thing. Like that's where everything else comes from. That the divorce of your parents was.

huge in your life. And I felt like validated finally for like the first time in my life because I had like an adult saying to me, yeah, that really messed you up. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. No, that sounds super impactful. And I totally know what you mean. In fact, we've heard a lot of feedback from even this podcast alone about how validating and helpful it is because of that alone.

It's like, just someone's like putting into words in a way, you know, what They went through as like really harmful and damaging. And I, like, I've even had people reach out in like their 60s who say what you just said, and even just to us saying like, I've never heard anyone put language to this problem the way that you and your guests are doing.

And it's very helpful. It's validating like you said. And so, of course, the goal, I know you and I would agree on this, like, the goal is to help us to kind of, you know, learn how to best navigate this and to move on in life. We don't want to stay stuck in the past, but in a sense, like we need to grieve that we need to.

Just, yeah, like you said, like just someone to validate the heaviness of it and the fact that it's like really impactful, um, in order to be able to, to move forward in life. Absolutely. And, you know, I feel like if we can do that, like it's, it's hard, it's going to be hard, but like, if you can have that step one, then you can take step two, you know, like, I feel like if, if people are constantly telling you or ignoring your pain or telling you, you know, It wasn't that big a deal or you're telling yourself because I used to tell myself that too.

Like, you know, I would hear somebody else's story and I would say, Oh, thankfully my parents divorce wasn't that bad, you know, and sort of minimizing it even to myself. Um, and the reality is that everyone is different. Also, we all, Like I was a very sensitive. I'm a very sensitive person. Like, I guess I would be considered a highly sensitive person, but I was like that, you know, from the time I was a child, um, people labeled me sensitive, shy, that kind of thing.

So like, take someone like me who has such a sensitive personality. Heart and soul and have what happened, which was not like there was no abuse. There was no, um, infidelity. There was, it was just a marriage that just. Failed, you know, and so I didn't have all these like extreme trauma situations in that, but it's still really traumatized me because of how I made, you know, and, and what I needed as a kid, I needed that security.

No, that makes so much sense. Thanks for sharing that. The definition of trauma that we learned from a therapist that we partner with is that trauma is anything that overwhelms your natural ability to cope. And so you're right. And some scenarios, maybe people through training or through some sort of, you know, natural ability, have the ability to kind of cope with more difficult things or things that are more challenging.

Another person might not be able to, but honestly, since what I've seen is like divorce is almost always traumatic. I'm tempted to say it is always traumatic from the data I've seen in the Hundreds of stories I've heard if not more, um, but it is, it is in itself traumatic regardless of what led up to it, which can also be traumatic too, right?

I was curious, you know, following the divorce and everything that happened in the family, how did you see that impact you? Well, being sensitive the way that I am, um, and also being shy and kind of like socially anxious just as a kid be prior to all of this, you know, um, um, One of the things that happened is my mom went to work full time and so we were left home alone a lot.

I had an eight year old sister so I was kind of in charge of her after school. I developed a lot of anger at being, having to be so responsible and also a lot of fears of, because I was alone a lot and I felt um, like abandoned. I used to go to bed at night and just pray that I would wake up in the morning and it would all have been a dream.

And I started to cope in very unhealthy ways. A lot of my friendships were very unhealthy. I would gravitated towards people who were broken and they sort of helped break me even more. Uh, I had unhealthy relationships with. Boys and men gravitated towards people who were broken, who broke me even more.

And, you know, just a lot of self destructive kind of behaviors, like as I got older, like the older I got in my teenage years and my, you know, like early, like college years, I would say I got the more self destructive I got. And I did a lot of coping with, alcohol and things like that to try to numb, to try to, you know, with the social anxiety, it was like trying to mitigate that.

But also just the, I think I just developed this like deep self loathing because I just did not feel loved or lovable anymore. And then, you know, the more that you do that self destructive, the worse it gets, the more the self loathing gets because you go, why am I doing these things? Why is this happening?

And then, you know, you have people in your life who are treating you poorly or leading you down these bad pathways to all these other things. So, um, I think that's, you know, that all stems from the, the lack of security, like the destruction of security that I had and the loneliness. I was deeply lonely. I still struggle with loneliness.

In my life just internally, um, even though I'm surrounded by amazing people who, who love me, you know, there's just, you know, it's a wound. It's a wound that still exists that I have to, you know, continue to work on. Sure. Wow. No, thank you for sharing. And, and there's so much I want to say. I, um, Yeah, I can relate with the loneliness, certainly, and feeling abandoned and, you know, wishing it was a dream, like, that's a definitely a moving way to put it.

It makes so much sense, like, what we've seen a lot of times is if we, you know, are traumatized by the breakdown of our family, by our parents of worse, we tend to, you know, like you said, go towards unhealthy people and behaviors. And then, like you said so well, those situations can traumatize us further, and then we go into further.

Unhealthy toward unhealthy people and behaviors and it's just this whole like circle the cycle that repeats itself again and again To where I mean i've talked with people who are just at the point of like giving up They're like I i'm so sick and tired of this. I my life is just miserable. I feel stuck I'm, just in a really rough spot.

And so Definitely hear you there and excited to hear the happier part of the story, but man, how heavy and how difficult and yeah, I'm curious to, you know, in your relationships, how that played out as well. Like, what, what, um, did you see in terms of your dating relationships and even your marriage already touched on the relationships a little bit, but I'm curious further of like, how did the breakdown of your family, your parents, divorce impact your relationships?

Yeah. So I'm sure you experienced like a feeling of powerlessness. Um, and so. The way I coped with that is I became controlling. And so, um, and that is something to this day. I, I really struggle with, I'm a lot better than I used to be. And I, but I'm also very much aware of it. So I ha I work on it. I'm working on it constantly, but you know, so, so there was that, then I also felt voiceless.

So I have a tendency to be Reactionary. So like if something happens and I'm not happy about it, you're going to hear it. You're going to know about it because I'm not going to be. I'm not going to be voiceless, you know, um, so, you know, in my marriage that, that has played out and it's, it's something that we've had to work on.

Um, you know, my husband is an, an amazing man and very, very patient. Um, he's also got his own wounds and, you know, in marriage, your wounds kind of usually butt up against your spouse's wounds and then you have to try to figure out how to, how to work that all out. Um, and. We have worked really hard at that.

So, um, but one of the ways that especially played out in my marriage, that was my, my husband owns a business. And when we got married, it was probably the most intense, intensely difficult time in there. Um, it really was, it was really difficult, um, for me at that time and. Because of the anxiety and, and the depression that I suffered with, I felt like, I feel like I couldn't really love my kids the way that they deserve to be loved.

You know, I, I regret that and I, I still have to try to ask God to heal that part. Um, I mean, I, I did what I, Needed to do I wasn't neglectful but like just there wasn't there was an internal part of me that just couldn't give you know everything that I would have liked to have given to them when they were kids and I also parented kind of out of.

Rather than abundance. So like I was fearful of things happening to them and I was, I didn't, I don't think I was able to give them the freedom that they should have had as kids to really be kids, you know, because I was too afraid all the time that something terrible was going to happen to them. So. Yeah, those are pretty intense ways that it affected me, but there is good news.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you just sharing so vulnerably. And I know I can relate to so much of your story and I know our listeners can too. And yeah, no, I've noticed that in my own life, it seems like. Our, yeah, our brokenness just holds us back in so many ways, like one of the ways in which I know it's held me back is I'm definitely I'm going to avoid an attachment type where I tend to like love at arm's length.

And I try to work through that, but like, yeah, there's times where I'm just really bad. Like, I'll just be honest with everyone. And so like, I need to kind of bring myself back to the point of like, okay, I'm not self sufficient. I need other people and I need to like love them and, you know, put my heart out there and be vulnerable and not just like, you know, try to put a shield around myself and my heart.

But, you know, especially when people hurt you, it can, it's a really easy reaction to, to go towards. But, you know, so that holds you back in the sense of, you know, you're not going to experience the joy, the intimacy, the love, the happiness that I think we're made for. And so, you know, and other things I've heard from people like us who come from divorced, broken families is, you know, there's so much fear, like, I think that's one theme we've seen so clearly among all these interviews we've done is like, there's just so much fear that we grapple with, not to say that other people don't, but it seems like there, there's like a certain intensity or we feel maybe a certain lack of competence or ability to like navigate through that fear.

Or maybe we just, you know, feel it. Like I said, more strongly, and that just holds us back. Like, I know a lot of older people I've talked to come from, you know, uh, broken families, like, especially maybe in there in like sixties or beyond, they have regrets of like, man, I never took that risk. I never started that business.

I never like pursued that, you know, person, that girl, that guy. And, um, and I, we've definitely seen that theme. So yeah, just curious if you have any thoughts on kind of that whole theme of like being held back and fear being having such a strong grip on so many of us. Oh my gosh. Yes. And, and. You know, I think it's because we have this deep sense of what loss feels like.

And so, you know, we don't want to lose anymore. You know, we don't want to have, we don't want to have that feeling of loss. And so we hold on to what we have and we don't take the risks that could cause the losses. And, you know, for some people, for me, it didn't manifest this way, but for some people, it means I'm never getting married.

Because I, because I can't risk that, that I'm going to do the same thing that my parents did or whatever, um, you know, it manifests in different people in different ways. And it absolutely has manifested that way in my life. And I'm, I'm just now getting to the point where I'm starting to take more risks and, and realizing, like, I have to surrender.

I have to surrender this control that I've I It's really an illusion. It's not, you know, you're not, we're not in control of anything. You know, we, we're trying to control things. We're not, we're not in control of anything. So like, what's the point? No, it's so true. I even think of that on like the career side, like when I've, you know, making the shift to doing this full time, I was like really afraid of losing, losing like a stable job and all of that.

And then, you know, as you're married an entrepreneur, some of you guys are immune to this, but, you It's, uh, yeah, no, it was just like, so fearful. And then it was so funny once I made at least the partial shift, I'm actually in the process now of making the full shift. I was like, Oh, that's it. Like, all right, I could do this.

Like I can make it through. So, and I think that's a good part to add here, perhaps it's like that, like you said, those fears can often be just this illusion. And the desire to control can just be the solution. Then when we look at it, it's like, you know, like using the career example, it's like, okay, there are certainly like stable, like jobs and businesses out there that are, you know, can add a level of stability to that.

Maybe going on your own would be really hard to achieve, at least in the short term. But at the end of the day, it's like, I mean, what we saw through COVID and everything, it's like, things can change very quickly. And what you thought was one stable, like becomes Pretty darn unstable. And so I think there's, it kind of forces you to like surrender.

Um, especially like in your relationship with God, it's like, man, I really don't control this stuff. Like you said so well, it's, it really is an illusion. And I think that's where I've personally found a lot of peace in life. It's like, God's going to put things on my plate. He wants me to do well with them, but then beyond like the things that are within my control, even then I have to surrender, you know, everything, including that stuff to Him.

And that That, that's definitely helped me because I struggle. I've struggled with anxiety too. And at times I could get, you know, more intense than others. But, um, yeah, that surrender certainly played a huge role because you're right. It's nothing's fully stable. Sadly, I want to shift to kind of the happier part of the story and just, you know, kind of the transformation.

And so I'm curious, what were some of the things that helped you to, to cope and healthy ways and to heal? I think I would say first, My relationship with my husband, you know, I met him, we were in college and I was pretty broken at that time. He was a little broken himself and God just brought us together at that particular time.

And he was, came from a Catholic family. I came from a family where I was baptized and, and I made my first penance and my first Holy communion. Um, but then my parents split up and we were sort of like, Nominal Catholics anyway, um, so I never made my confirmation and I didn't even know when I met my husband, I didn't even know if I believed in God at that point because I thought, you know, it's all this terrible things have happened to me.

Like, how could there be a God, you know, that's where I was. Um, so anyway, when I met him, he sort of his influence on me. Was really like the starting point of my healing journey, which continues to this day because he Eventually kind of had like a reversion and and really started getting serious about his faith And he kind of brought me along with him and it was sort of like you're either coming along with me or we're breaking up you know like I You know, I love you, but I, I have to be married to someone who's Catholic and I have to be, you know, in the same universe there.

So, um, I am a truth seeker and I always have been. So I just started looking into things and they just started bringing true to me. And so I made my confirmation as a, I was almost 25 when I made my confirmation. So that was, that was like probably the initial thing. But then, um, You know, there was periods of time when I needed therapy and I already spoke of the one therapist, this was a Catholic therapist.

if anyone's, you know, if you're Catholic or Christian, I really recommend a Catholic or Christian therapist who really will speak the same language as you and who, who sees marriage in the same light, you know, cause like for me to go to a secular therapist who maybe would think divorce is okay, that that wasn't going to be helpful for me.

Um, so to have that therapist say, like, Yeah, that was your that's your like your primal wound that also was very healing and it set me on a path of healing. You know, having, having different thoughts about what happened. And then I, more than the therapy, at least having like the life of the church, the life of the church, the sacraments, the community, um, just being in community with people.

We were involved in charismatic prayer for a while. That was extremely healing. Um, because I learned more about. God and his love and what he wanted to do for us. And I developed a community of people in our parish and also through homeschooling. We homeschooled for 10 years and that got me involved in some Bible studies.

And I developed these friendships that were very vulnerable. And that has been one of the biggest ways that I've healed is through these relationships with people who are also willing to be vulnerable about. their stories, people who will pray with me. Um, we pray for each other. And, um, so those, those have been extremely healing.

I've also been blessed to be introduced to deliverance prayer. And for those who don't know, deliverance prayer is really just Identifying where the enemy, the devil has gained access to you through your wounds and whispered lies into your life and over you and, and who has, you know, and where you've kind of agreed with them.

Like, so, for example, like, I'm unlovable is a lie and that comes from, um, My parents must not have loved me enough to stay together. So, like, that's a lie. And then you agree with that lie, and you go, That must be true. And then you start operating out of that lie. Like, I actually am unlovable. Which is false.

So, Deliverance Prayer is really, like, renouncing those lies and saying, You know, in the name of Jesus, I renounced that lie. And, um, that was extremely helpful for me to go through all the lies and the vows and the curses and all the things that have, like, piled on through the years. Yeah, no, so good. I want you to continue, but I, um Just wanted to comment on like that, the intimacy portion.

I mean, all everything you said is so good, but the, the way that I've understood it, like listening to dr. Bob shoots, for example, um, I forget who he quotes when he says this, but he was saying like at the root of every wound is a deprivation or a distortion of love. And so it like naturally follows that to.

To heal those wounds, we need authentic love, you know, in, in various forms, right? You talked about your relationship with God, you talked about your relationship with your husband, other people, like, it makes sense that like authentic love would be so healing and beautiful. And that's one of the principles we preach to is, you know, healing happens in relationship.

Like it can't happen elsewhere. Like we can't really, yeah. Listening to a podcast, reading a book, doing getting the content is good. It's like one of the steps in this whole process. But eventually you have to go beyond that. And so it sounds, you know, like that was extremely helpful and fruitful for you, which is beautiful, but I'm curious.

Yeah. Anything else to add in terms of what helped you to heal? Yeah. I mean, The way to heal feeling unlovable is to allow people to love you. And I have so many people who love me and I feel incredibly blessed because of that. Like, sometimes it brings me just to tears that the, the number of people who God has brought into my life to love me and, and then give me the opportunity to love back.

It is that relationship. Relationship is one of the biggest ways to healing has been for me. So good. No, I love it. And one of the things I just learned from you too, is that like the, the answer to insecurities is evidence in the sense that like, we need to be shown and told and very like concrete ways that like, no, like you said, believe in that lie that I'm unlovable.

We need evidence to say that, no, that's actually not true. Because one of the things I've seen in like the whole self, self help, you know, personal development world is like, they'll tell you to like, talk to a mirror, write down in your journal, like these things that you, you know. believe that are true about you.

But if there's no evidence to back it up, like you can't point to some other person or situation, like God being one of them, or, you know, your relationships, then I think it just is empty. We're saying things that maybe, you know, they might be true in the end, but if we don't have like any evidence to back them up with, and I think it can be tricky and problematic and we end up doubting it.

But when you have that clear evidence, like again, people in your life where you like telling you these things are showing you through their actions, then I think it's way more convincing. Um, you know, we're always at work in progress. We talk about healing as like this infinite goal of like, you know, we're always becoming like better, stronger, more virtuous, more whole, more healthy, healthier.

Um, but I'm curious, kind of the transformation that you've seen from that younger you to where you are now, like contrast that a little bit for us. Like what's different now? Yeah. I mean, I definitely, I feel like healing comes in layers and it comes in seasons and it comes, um, sometimes it comes all at once in a flurry, sometimes it's super slow and I've experienced all those things in my life and I feel like I may, while I still struggle with anxiety, I still struggle with depression, I am much more able to surrender.

And when I'm experiencing those things to go to God and just say, God, I just, I can't do this. I need you to do this for me. One of the things that has helped me a lot is adoration and just really just going in front of the blessed sacrament and just. Just laying it all out, you know, and just saying, God, I, I can't, I can't.

There was a period of time five or six years ago where I was in the Adoration Chapel almost every day because I needed to be there with Jesus. And it helped me tremendously. But I also now can look back and say, that was a very, very healing time because I was so stripped down and I was so vulnerable that he really worked.

A lot. And really it set the stage for where I am today, the certain risks that I'm now taking in certain areas where God is saying like, go here, do this, you know, and I also am able, I feel like I'm much more self aware. I know what my triggers are. I know what my wounds are and I'm, I'm starting to be able to operate outside of my wounds instead of in them all the time, you know, there's a period of time in my life where I was just everything I did was just out of my wounds, you know, like every reaction I had every step I took was all out of my wounds.

And now I feel like. I can sort of step back and, and see the wounds and they're there and I feel them still, but they're not ruling me constantly, you know, and I think I, I've developed a compassion for the younger me, you know, I hated the younger me for the longest time for being so dumb and getting involved in all these things that were hurtful and for being, you know, in my mind, weak and, you know, all these different things that, you know, The self loathing and stuff like now i think i have more compassion for my younger self i think it's why i can have i have a lot of compassion for people who are going through kids who are going through what what i went through and i also feel like i'm growing a lot in trust and surrender and trying to grow in humility i feel like i think when you have these kinds of wounds you're it can be real um, Pitfall for, for pride to like really jump in because you have this sense of justice and this feeling of like, I have to protect myself.

And so like everything becomes about you and what you you're getting out of things and, and how you're not going to get hurt and you're not going to let this happen and all that. And I think that can be, it can cause a lot of pride in our lives. The pride thing is so interesting. I've never heard it said exactly like that, but it makes so much sense that we, yeah.

Cause like, I guess the essence of pride is kind of like continue looking in on yourself, you know, continue looking, being kind of self absorbed self. And sometimes, you know, There is that kind of survival, survival, survivor instinct that we do that when we're wounded, right? We kind of just, if we're in pain, we need to take care of the pain and the wound.

But it is really interesting. And I think that is a, such a pivotal part of healing is kind of going outside of yourself, going beyond yourself. And I found that helpful too. I've mentioned in other podcasts just, yeah, the advice, you know, I've gotten from mentors where it's like, okay, I know you're hurting, I know you're, And you need to heal that.

But one of the things that can be so helpful is just kind of looking beyond your own pain and finding people in your life who you can love and you can help. And again, not as an escape from dealing with their own stuff, because I think it can be used that way, but really as a way of like, okay, there's other people in the world who are suffering too.

And I've, that's just been helpful for me, but yeah, just that whole idea of humility of like not putting yourself down. Like CS Lewis said, I said this not long ago in an episode, it's like, you're not thinking. Less of yourself, just thinking of yourself less. Yes. I totally agree with that. I, yes, I feel like in order to heal, um, you do have to get outside of yourself because we, we tend to go.

Inside, we tend to, you know, think about constantly what happened to us or what went wrong or whatever. And I think in any situation, and I'm just talking about divorce, anything, anytime you have someone who's experienced trauma, I feel like part of the healing is. Getting outside of yourself outside of your own mind and helping other people.

And, you know, at some point I, um, I don't know where if I came across this or if it was given to me just in like revelation, but I got this, um, word that was given to me. You don't need to be healed in order to do you need to do in order to be healed and that has really been beautiful that has been sort of a quote that has played in my mind over and over over the last few years as I've experienced really a much deeper healing period and.

you know, I felt like God has really called me out of myself in the last few years and, and said like, no, you need to start doing like, I know you don't feel totally equipped and I know you don't feel totally ready. And I know that you still have these issues that you deal with, but you need to start doing, and that's where the healing is going to come.

And as I've done things, yes, that is, that has been true. And so then that reinforces to me, like, okay, God's got me. He His word is true. What he's saying to me is true when I pray and I get these. You know words from him like it's it's true and I have to I have to listen Beautiful. Well, I love that and I I was thinking of just like kind of the physical form of what you just said of like You know Don't wait to heal to do like do and then you'll be healed through that and I was thinking of a surgery I got while while back and I remember the doctors telling me like, okay, it's gonna be painful And this is counterintuitive, but you need to like move a lot.

You need to walk a lot in order to get blood flow to the wound in order for it to heal. And it was, it was, it was painful to do that. But as I did it, the wound healed and I got better. And now I have, you know, full function of that part of my body. And so, um, it would have been really easy though, kind of to your point to think, well, I'll start walking and moving when I feel healed, but it's like, no, no, no.

It's like through the walking, the moving, Then you feel healed. So I thought that was really interesting that there's like a physical truth there too. Yeah. I mean, I experienced that similarly last year. I broke my foot and I was on crutches for like eight weeks and in a boot for another eight weeks. And by the time it was all over, it hurt to walk.

And you know, so I had to go to physical therapy and they had to manipulate it and it hurt. And you know, I had to do these exercises, but now it's, you know, it's all better and it is going to hurt. Do I think a lot of people want to just like turtle up and I, I turtled up, you know, for a long time, I just curled up in a ball and didn't do anything.

And I think a lot of people want to let their wounds sit there and just let them, you know, heal, but they're not always going to heal. Sometimes they have to be scraped out, you know, and sometimes. I heard, I listened to this podcast sometimes called the place we find ourselves. And I remember, you know, that, yeah, great podcast.

Um, and he, I remember him talking about the healing of wounds and how, you know, you have to go down into the valley in order to get back up to the mountain top. You know, so and you have to go through it. There's no way around it if you want to get up to the top of that mountain, you have to go through that valley.

You can't go around it. And yeah, it's hard and it's painful, but it's so worth it. And it's so rewarding when you get to the top and you can say, Oh, my gosh, I did it. You know, I made it through that. And then you're you are stronger. You really are. Yeah. Stronger. Everything that I've gone through has made me a stronger person.

I love that. And then you're better able to love. And I think one of the things I've seen too, when it comes to just healing in the people's lives is that like, when you kind of walk through that, you, on the other side of maybe comfort of shut shelling up on the other side of like, you know, the brokenness is freedom, that there's a lot of freedom, but you said, you're right.

Like there's pain in the middle, which I think scares a lot of people. Cause we, we don't like pain obviously, but we don't know. Maybe if it'll, Will be worth it. We don't know if we're going to be able to get to the mountaintop. Um, and so I totally get that there's a lot of like doubts and insecurities there, but, but I've found, yeah, when you kind of work through that, you feel free and you truly find freedom, but it is painful to get there.

And I think too, there's definitely a trend right now. And I'm curious your thoughts on this and our world of just kind of falling into this like perpetual victim mode mentality, right? Where we. Yeah, just kind of blame everything and anyone around us for not being, you know, able to move forward in life.

And I'm not talking about like serious disabilities, things like that, but you know, I haven't even seen this in myself. It can be easy to blame even our parents, you know, and one of the ways that we talk about this, just to clarify anyone who's confused on this is like, we're not saying not to acknowledge the pain that someone caused, or even the fact that they like, they did that, they, they need to take ownership of that.

But the way we talk about it is like, even if you didn't cause the problem, you can take ownership of the solution. You don't need to let that define your life. You don't need to let that someone else write your own story. Like you can write your own story. And we're big believers in that. Um, so, but yeah, it's sad to see, especially, you know, in younger generations, um, you know, Just how like debilitating I think brokenness and wounds can be, like you said, where we just kind of shell up and just be like, well, this is what my life is going to be like now.

Can't really improve it. Get any better. Um, even if there was this kind of long shot, I could, it's not really worth it to go through it. So just curious on your thoughts on the whole victim mentality thing. I mean, I definitely had that mentality for a long time and it's really hard when you're feeling, you know, stuck to get out of that.

Honestly, like I, there were times when I wanted to give up or plenty of times when I wanted to give up, but then I, I looked around me and I thought, like, I would see my kids or I would see my husband and I would say, like, uh, they deserve me to be better. They deserve for me to be more whole and I deserve for me to be more whole.

Like, I don't have to be like this. I don't broken is what happened to me. It's not who I am. You know, like. I'm not Stacy, the broken woman, I'm Stacy, and I have some brokenness because of what happened to me. Like, I can't define myself by that. For so many years, I think I defined myself by my brokenness, by my wounds, by my things that I did that were shameful.

And, you know, I just, at some point, You have to make a decision. Like, this is your life. You only get one. You have to decide. Do you want to live stuck in your wounds and feeling sorry for yourself your whole life? Or do you want to try to climb out of that and live abundantly and joyfully? And does that mean you're not gonna suffer?

No. Like, we're all gonna suffer. I'm gonna suffer a lot more before I die. So are you. So is everybody else. But it doesn't mean that you're not going to have joy in your life and that it's, it's not worth it. It is worth it. It's, it's so worth it. Wow. So good. I have nothing to add. Like you said that so beautifully that thank you and shifting gears a little bit and coming to the close of our conversation.

I'm just curious if you were to sit down with your parents and talk to them about this, or maybe if they were, you know, happened to listen to this, what would you want them to know? Like, I mean, I'm very blessed because my parents. Got to a place where we actually like do holidays together and stuff, you know, and I'm also very blessed because my mom has had the humility to let me talk to her about how I was wounded and, and to sit there and, and listen and be open to that.

And it has been very healing for me, but also very healing for our relationship. And so. You know, I don't I'm not talking about this because I want to blame like you said, like, I don't blame my parents. I don't have animosity toward my parents. I love my parents. They're wonderful people. Um, I forgive them for, you know, the ways that they failed me.

I hope my kids. will forgive me someday for the ways that I failed them. I want to be able to help other people see that this is not the end of the road for them, you know, and that's why I want to talk about these things. And, you know, I feel like you have to talk about them. In order to, to bring them into the light, because you can't heal broken things if you, if they're in the darkness, you know, you have to bring all things to the light and I know people don't like to talk about these things, but you have to, I feel like with anything that's broken, it needs to be talked about in order for it to, to heal.

And also I'm, you know, in terms of my parents, like, everything that I went through. It was just, honestly, the other day I was in adoration and I was sitting there and I was just praying. And I thought, and all of a sudden this flood of like the tapestry of my life came to me and how God worked all the things that happened for good.

And all of the different people who have come into my life and all of the wonderful things that have happened to me and all that. It was, it was just an opening of my eyes to like, it's not all bad. It wasn't all bad and it's not going to be all bad. You know, there's so much good in your life and there's so much joy in your life and there's so much left still for you to do in your life.

And so, you know, I just want to, I want people to have hope that even if they're dealing with brokenness and pain, that they're not always going to be that way. And even if they have periods of Healing where they're feeling better, and then they kind of regress. It's okay, like, you're not gonna stay there.

You're gonna, you're gonna move forward again. Cause, you know, St. Teresa of Avila says, like, um, let nothing disturb you. All things are passing. You know, all things are passing. And God alone suffices. And, if you bring it to God, Then he will, weave it into a beautiful tapestry. No, I love all that. And I think there's even lessons for any parents listening right now, just how your mom was able to listen to you and, you know, perhaps she asked some questions and was able to kind of take ownership of her piece of it.

I think that's really, really big. And, uh, yeah, and then you both are able to, you know, you were able to get to a point of forgiving her, which is really, really beautiful. Um, so good. And I love that reminder too. I mean, there's so much in what you said, but one thing I wanted to point out too, is that when you kind of go on this path of trying to heal from brokenness, then we need to be ready to give ourselves some grace to along the way.

Like we can't expect. You know, like perfection in this process, because it's messy, it's not going to be perfect. And if you do expect that, which I know so many of us who come from broken families do kind of struggle with the control that we talked about before perfectionism. And, uh, if you do expect that, then it's going to be, yeah, just a really difficult process.

Much more difficult process for you. So I think just giving yourself grace, kind of how you might give grace to another person who you saw is like, man, they're going through a hard time. I think is, is really, really good. But then, like you said, also having that hope that like, there's so much good ahead of you that, That if you, you know, work at it and rely on God's grace, like you said, you can experience that.

Like, I firmly believe that. In closing, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on here. I know this is like, um, it's an act of bravery. I don't say that enough when people come on here to share their stories, because it's not an easy thing to do. So thank you. And I just wanted to give you the last word when it comes to, you know, what would you say to the younger you to that?

young woman who's listening right now, who maybe feels stuck in life. They feel broken. They're acting out in all these sorts of ways. Like, what would you want to say to them? I would say like, for me, I wish I had been, I wish I had been able to articulate to the adults in my life that how much I was hurting.

I wish I'd been able to articulate that to the adults in my life, um, how much I was hurting and like, you do have a voice and you can use your voice and you don't have to sit back and say like, I can't say anything because it'll hurt my mom's feelings or my dad will be upset. Or I don't really have a voice because this isn't my thing.

You know, like I just have to go along and not say anything. Like I would say it. And if you feel like you can't talk to your parents. Talk to a trusted person that you, you know, adult, a pastor, a family member, a friend, whoever it is, and, and know that how you're feeling is, is normal. Like, there's nothing abnormal about you.

There's nothing abnormal about how you're reacting to this. There's nothing abnormal about how you're feeling. And there's nothing wrong. You're not wrong. So, just understand that your, your feelings matter. That would be, that would be one thing. And then, another thing would be, if you're, especially if like you're a young adult and you're discerning marriage.

I would say if you can work through some of your divorce pain prior to getting married, whether that be alone or with your, um, future spouse or, you know, then I would highly recommend that because we do bring our baggage into our marriages with us and unaddressed wounds and pain can become real problems in relationships.

And if we don't have the awareness of. You know, our thought patterns and behaviors and stuff like that. It can be, it can be difficult to navigate once you're already married. So that, that would be a suggestion that I have. There's so much I loved about that interview. Stacy has really deep insights into healing and brokenness, and I'm really grateful that she joined us.

And if you'd like to share your story with us, like Stacy did, We'd love to hear it. You can do it in three simple steps. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story in a really active way and sharing that story with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level.

According to a neurobiologist, it actually makes your brain healthier. Writing your story is also healing. There's been numerous studies that show that People who write about emotionally significant events in their life are happier, they're healthier, they're less depressed, less anxious, and so many other great benefits.

And also, sharing your story can be super helpful to someone who's maybe going through what you went through and who can learn some lessons from you. By reading your story. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com slash story. And on that page, you just fill out a form that tells a short version of your story.

And then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com slash story, or just click on the link. And the show notes, if you come from a broken or divorced family, or maybe, you know, someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Our resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of our resources are really designed to help you heal from the trauma you've endured and build virtue. So you can break the cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view these resources for yourself or someone, you know, just go to restored.

mini. com.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them. I promise you, they will be super grateful that you did. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#118: Resolving Conflict is a Skill | Cody & Katherine

If you’re like me, you never saw conflict resolved peacefully in your family. As a result, you might feel a bit lost about how to resolve conflict in your life, especially in your relationships. 

If that’s you, this episode will help. In it, a married couple joins to share tips they’ve learned on resolving conflict, plus:

• Why it’s important to let small things go, but how letting too much go can lead to resentment

• The four levels of learning any skill

• Advice to someone from an intact family who’s dating, engaged, or even married to someone from a broken family

Get FREE Guide: 7 Tips to Build Healthy Relationships & a Divorce-Proof Marriage

Visit Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Watch Cody's previous episode: Episode 111

• Read "Hold me Tight" by Sue Johnson

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're like me, you probably never saw conflict handled very well in your family. And as a result, you might feel kind of unequipped and even lost when it comes to dealing with conflict in your own life, especially in your intimate relationships. And if that describes you, this episode is going to help you.

I'm joined by a married couple that shares some tips that they've learned and used. That helped them navigate conflict. Plus how not to let fear hold you back in relationships. We talk about the unspoken belief that so many of us from broken families believe that conflict leads to permanent separation.

A term that was coined by my friend, Layla Miller. We also hit on why it's so important within marriage to let the small things go. But if you let everything go, that will actually just lead to resentment towards your spouse. We Touch on the four levels or steps to learn any skill, including the skill of conflict resolution.

And finally, they share some advice to someone from an intact family who's maybe dating engaged or married to someone who comes from a broken family. Stay with us.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 100. Eighteen. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard so much great feedback. One listener said this. I recommended your podcast to a friend. A week later, she came back and said, this is my new favorite podcast. Thanks for the work you do. Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness.

If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you. This is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world and in a safe and approachable environment. But what makes Dakota different than the numerous. Fitness and health coaches out there. Three things. One, he's done it himself.

He's a very healthy, ripped dude. He's also a good, virtuous man who doesn't just care about his body, but the rest of his life as well, uh, to, he studied to become for a priest, actually for a little while. And through that experience in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest of The rest, like your body, we need to care for it all.

And so we can become more virtuous and free to love. And number three is the code of mission is all about leading people to the experience, the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way they were made to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you want to transform your body and even your life.

Dakota can help one client said this about Dakota, Dakota lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, Look no further, Dakota Lane is your man.

And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have achieved, just go to Dakota lane, fitness. com, Dakota lane, fitness. com. You can even Google that or just click on the link in the show notes. My guests today are Cody and Catherine. Cody, as you'll hear in the conversation, experienced the divorce of his parents at age 14 in college.

He had a reversion to his Catholic faith where he found the support to untangle the pain he experienced. Cody is a joyful newlywed and expectant father. He works as an engineer and he's a self proclaimed armchair, armchair, a philosopher and theologian. Catherine, his wife, uh, is a mother and a missionary as well as a wife.

And after graduating from the University of Missouri with a degree in journalism, she spent three years working in campus ministry, uh, with Focus, the fellowship of Catholic University students, uh, during which she met her husband, Cody. Uh, she continues to work with Focus as a marketing specialist. In her free time, she reads good books with friends, backpacks around Michigan's upper peninsula and dreams up more effective ways to run her household.

Cody were married in July 2023 and are expecting their first child in April 2024, and they have a passion for just self aware communication, playfulness, and intellectual formation, believing that the theology of our bodies reveals much more about how to know and love one another. Now in this conversation, we do talk a bit about God and faith.

If you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. Anyone who knows this podcast knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is just this, listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode.

And with that, here's our chat. Cody and Catherine, welcome to the show. Good to be here, Joe. Yeah, I'm excited. No, I'm a big fan of you both. And, um, uh, yeah, excited to learn more about your story. I know I've, I've learned a bit here there about it, but yeah, how did you guys meet? Let's just start with a kind of softball question.

Where'd you meet? So I, I worked for a Catholic, uh, campus ministry organization and got sent as part of that organization up to Michigan tech where Cody was a student. Uh, so I was a missionary, uh, serving in that capacity And so I didn't know Cody. Um, I knew his best friend was one of the people who served on my team with me.

I was also on Dating Fast when we first met as part of my service as a missionary. So I think that made me feel very free to hang out with him and see him as a brother figure. No, I like it. Okay. So you guys kind of hit it off that way. I met through other people and uh, kind of built your friendship though.

I'm curious, like, did you guys have this long period of friendship or were you pretty soon interested in each other and wanting to take things to the dating level? I didn't really get to know Catherine very well until probably January, uh, of that like whole academic year. So I was pretty much right or off.

And then it was, uh, She's kind of cute, but unavailable. It's a shame. I'm going to go ask out somebody else. And so I did. So I went on a couple of dates with her and wasn't terribly interested in that. And by then the semester had ended and, uh, Catherine was at the end of her first year on mission, so she was then able to go on dates and, uh, that's right.

One of my friends who was a groomsman later at our wedding pulled me aside. It's like, Hey man, you're going to ask Catherine out? And I said, no, I'm not terribly interested in that. Like, well, you should, she's great. And I know you've said that you would take her out if you could. And then on my end, I had been really interested in discerning religious life.

So looking at other options besides marriage, um, while I was on the dating fast, but I knew that. There were a lot of really awesome men in my life. At that point, I had fellow missionary and teammates, a lot of the male students. I had just built a great friendship with them throughout that first year, um, that I was at Michigan tech.

And so I had told my manager. That, you know, all of the men at Tech, they're really great. If one of them asked me on a date, I would say yes, even Cody Eby. Because I thought he was, he was like the weirdest of all of the weird ones. There is kind of this spectrum of, you know, we've got like the hunters and the outdoorsmen, and then we've got the nerds, because they're most of, The students at Tech are engineers, but I definitely put Cody on the weirder than I would normally date, but I would be open.

Um, and so as the story goes, two hours after the official end of the dating fast, which was marked by a piñata, uh, Cody asked me on a date. Um, yeah, and then we dated for eight months. We were engaged for 16, um, and I've been married now for eight months. Beautiful. Okay. Thanks for sharing. And that makes sense.

Like, yeah, about the dating fast. So anyone who's not familiar, it's just a period of time where you choose not to date because you're, you know, in Catherine's situation, she was a missionary serving college students. So, um, just something that organization has their missionaries do. Well, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, what are your families like?

Like, what are your family's backgrounds? Now, obviously Cody, you've come on the show. We'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. But, um, if you would give us a little bit of a recap and then Catherine as well, I'd love to hear a bit about your family. Yeah. So my parents divorced when I was about.

Um, it was a fairly troubled marriage and then post split, it was just me bouncing between households. Um, and then primarily staying with my mother. So there was a lot of, uh, dysfunction. Yeah. And then I come, um, from an intact family. Um, my parents have been married for 30 years and I have three children.

Three brothers, one older and two younger, and grew up in suburban Minnesota. Um, and just had a very different experience, um, from Cody had a very close knit family and we did a lot of family vacations and family dinners together. Uh, and that was definitely a lens that I brought into the relationship that I think affected my ability just to understand family dynamics that were different from what I had.

So it's not also that you had siblings and I didn't. That is true, but I had all boy siblings. It definitely can give you some advantages for sure. It definitely is helpful. I should say, um, no, thank you guys for going into that and explaining. And that is so interesting. The dynamic between an intact family and a, you know, a broken family.

I want to go into that a bit deeper in a little bit. But I am curious, like through this whole like dating phase for you guys, were there certain qualities and virtues that you were looking for in another person? Or was it more that there was just a personal attraction between like the two of you that you began to explore?

Like you didn't have this whole checklist and you're like, yep, Cody checks this and Catherine checks this. Just curious what that was like for you. What were you looking for in each other? Maybe Catherine first. Yeah, absolutely. That's, it's so funny because I think. At one point in my life, I, for sure, had a checklist of all the things that I was looking for in a future husband.

I think at the point that Cody and I started dating, I hadn't even been thinking about that for, for quite a while. Didn't date really at all in college and just, Yeah, I felt very free to give myself in friendship. Um, and so walking into dating, I, I didn't even really know what I wanted or what I expected.

Um, which I think led both to putting pressure on Cody that didn't necessarily need to be there because I was trying to hold him to this ideal. Even though, um, yeah, I hadn't set down expectations and that was something a mentor. had encouraged me while dating to do is actually sit down and ask yourself for me to ask myself, is he actually like checking the boxes you think you have in your head or are your ideals unrealistic?

And that was also something, um, that, uh, a close priest had said to me as well, uh, is just a really, Really know my own heart and my own mind when it came to that. It's interesting because I remember on our second date there was this whole moment near the end of the date where I just I was going in at that point.

I had decided like oh, this has been fun, but I don't want to go on more dates Uh and started explaining all of that to cody. He just started to stop me and be like What, so what are you actually saying? Um, and I realized in all of that crazy rambling that I was going through, that the thing that I was actually wrestling with is just being afraid of, of something new of a dating relationship and dating at a time when, um, I was stepping into a new leadership role on campus and just a lot of things were changing in my life.

Um, yeah. And just his advice, um, to step into that place of fear. Uh, to do it scared and just really enter into all the uncertainty. That was a huge help in, even later in the process of me sorting through kind of what, what were some of those, those boxes I was looking for. That was the moment I went back to in all the times when I thought, Oh, Cody doesn't check this box.

Um, Oh, specifically in the area of faith, right? I was a missionary who was praying every single day, very involved in evangelizing. Um, and Cody's life as a college student looked very different. His, his personal devotion to God looked very different than mine was. And I think I was looking for someone with the exact, the exact flavor of, uh, faith life that I had.

Um, but in realizing that deeper than any of those faith aspects was actually just realizing that I felt very safe with him. I felt safe to be vulnerable, um, and that wasn't Something that I've had much in my life, just because of my own, my own personal woundedness, um, it involves a lot of fear and fear of, um, people pleasing and just wanting to be perfect for everyone.

And so this fact that even if the things I thought I wanted were Like, this perfect Christian man wasn't there. What I actually needed was someone who, who listened to me, who accepted me, who was willing to work through the hard things. And that was feedback we got from friends during that time, is that we had great interpersonal communication.

Um, actually, the, the person during our marriage prep frequently said, Do you, do you guys ever have conflict? Cause you've clearly figured out how to resolve it very quickly. Uh, I think another person was so concerned that we were so good at the, the, the conflict resolution language. Like, do you have normal conversations?

Like you talk to each other. Like friends, right? Like very concerned that we're too good at voicing opinions. We were apparently like a plus stars of I statements. And yeah, it was good. Yeah. Talk us through a little bit of that. Cause I know this conflict is such a difficult thing for typically for people who come from broken families, especially once you get an intimate relationship, you get married, like it can be a really difficult waters because for so many of us, as you both know.

We didn't see that modeled well, but I'm a big believer that you can learn how to navigate that. And it sounds like you did, Cody, and Catherine, you as well. So I'm just curious, like, what is your mode of operating when it comes to conflict? And maybe what advice would you give to someone who's like, I don't really know what I'm doing?

Yeah, I think for me coming from a very classic passive aggressive midwestern family, we just, we didn't, we had a lot of deep discussions growing up, but not a lot of diving into the conflict or saying the things that were really important or were hurtful to us. Um, and I think the thing that really helped me most was in some of those marriage preparation classes.

They just gave us a language that we could use, um, using I statements, um, and explaining how we felt. Uh, Or I think we, we read a book called Hold Me Tight, which is just a, a psychology book about, um, intimate relationships and some of that language of just learning how to, um, to speak about kind of our, our interior, our feelings, um, the things that we're expressing.

That was really huge for me. I love having a framework. I will read Like psychology books until the cows come home. Um, but being able to know that I had someone who was trained the same way that I was to just be able to say, okay, we're going to stop, um, being able to even now call each other out and say, Like, Oh, it sounds like the way that you're speaking to me.

It sounds like something is going deeper. Can we stop? Can we take a moment to just enter into that space and really talk about what we're feeling? Um, and honestly, learning a list of emotion words, uh, like brainstorming, not just happy, sad, angry, but what are maybe some of those more? Like I'm feeling afraid in this particular way, or I'm feeling discouraged.

Um, Yeah, that was really helpful in just me having to stop and identify what I was feeling and I'm, I'm a very slow processor by personality. So sometimes it would take us, our friends joke that sometimes it would take us hours to go and have one conversation because we just needed all that time to process, which is totally okay.

If you're a fast processor, great. Um, sometimes that makes it easier, but if you're slow or need to step away for a moment, take a five minute breather, figure out what you're feeling and then come back to the conversation. Um, that all of those things were very helpful.

I'm married to Treebeard, who believes that, uh, things aren't worth, uh, saying, unless you're willing to take a long time to say it. Which is funny, because the one thing that we did during that year of friendship was watch Lord of the Rings together. So, gladly, we lived that. Um, no, right? It's like, just, just coming from like my own experience, like conflict, uh, in a relationship being something that's like really, you know, It creates a lot of fear in previous relationships, getting to experience that and like the instability of dating.

Right. I think that's like one of the worst things about it for someone who's grown up from a divorce household. Right. Is right. There's all this courage that it takes simply to ask a woman on a date, right? You risk all this rejection, which, uh, for asking Catherine out, I'm thinking I have no chance at this.

There is. No way. She's going to say yes, but it's like the end of the semester and she might even transfer after the year. So as long as I just shoot my shot, I'll know that it's over and I can go hang out with my friends before we all leave town for the summer. And, uh, yeah, it turned out she said yes, which was, uh, Great.

And I'll be at surprising. And then she's like, well, I'd like to go out on a date with you again before you leave. Shall we go out again? Wow. So that went really well. Right. Like, yeah, there's a brave face to, uh, rejection, which is, uh, yeah, it's real. Projection hurts a lot, but then even once like there is, uh, a yes.

And then even a committed to like, let's exclusively date. Like, Boyfriend girlfriend kind of thing. It's still not like a stable relationship, right? Like you're exclusive, but there's ultimately like a freedom of like, ah, you can voluntarily choose to exit this relationship at any time. And that's terrible, right?

As, as somebody who's experienced divorce for like, ah, your parents just. opted to voluntarily separate the relationship at any time. And we're like going through breakups before my relationship with Catherine was, uh, difficult. Even like housemates, like moving out, like, ah, we've lived together for a year and now you've graduated and you're going off to like your new life, your new job.

Everything's great. Like, oh boy, what I just. Sit and cry over like my non romantic friend because it's just hard to deal with like we've grown in friendship now There's a separation that we just bring all these memories of difficulty and separation about that So right, so there's all that going on and to say what what that has to do with conflict is Anytime that like conflict is broached, you're thinking, Oh, is this the end?

Is this it? Has it, has it come to the final hour of hair? This is the impossible conflict that things cannot get solved and we're going to break up and there's nothing we can do about it. And it's just the divorce process all over again. Mom and dad can't get along. And you're to me, it just felt like my brain was just.

Set in stone that like, ah, there is another argument and it is the end and it is definitively the end and Right. I have to take time to think like, okay, we're gonna be okay. It doesn't have to be as doom and gloom as I think it's going to be and I can relax and I say this and I'm trying to be as true to myself as possible, but it's actually hard to remember.

I've been married for eight months and I've kind of like They're able to kind of flush these things down the toilet for the, for the most part, because I think about it all that often, and it's great. It's a good thing. Yeah, and it still takes a lot. The entering into conflict takes courage, and that, that isn't easy.

Um, and so I, I think. That's been something for both of us that's just been really huge is whether we chose to or not We grew in that ability to just to enter in and to face the fear So good now, I love that and now I think this is such an important topic because could it like you said well A dating breakup can feel like a divorce to people like us.

And we need to learn how to get through that obviously and see that it's actually not the same thing, but it can feel like it. And that's a really difficult thing when you're going through it. Um, so I think, yeah, seeing what conflict can look like in a healthy way is really beautiful. So I do want to stay here a little bit more if it's okay with you guys.

I, yeah, I'm curious, like the, Balance that you guys hit or you maybe you've seen in other marriages between directness and tactfulness. Cause I think sometimes those can be a little bit at odds where like you can be very direct and just kind of say what's on your mind and say what you're feeling. And in some relationships that's great.

Like that will work well. And other relationships like, no, no, no, you need to be a bit more tactful. You need to figure out the right way to say it. So just curious the balance between The, those two, not necessarily extremes, but those two kind of modes of communicating for you guys and what you've seen and maybe what advice you would offer to someone who's navigating that too.

Well, I'm definitely very confrontational. It's not necessarily like you can be confrontational and still be kind, right? So like, what does that mean? Is you, you address the thing that bothers you. And to the way that I do it, and it's not necessarily a guarantee. This is going to be like the thing that works well for you, uh, or that it's going to be received well by your spouse or boy girlfriend.

But again, like the, the EFT, the emotionally focused therapy, when you just speak about the way that you feel or that you receive something, right. That's primarily why you're hurt. You've received something, uh, whether it was meant to be received in that way or not. Received something. So here's the way that like, when you told me to do this task in this way, I felt belittled and explain if it was, um, a choice of language or the way it was spoken and, and, and confronting Catherine with that.

And. Giving her the, the chance to kind of answer for herself, not necessarily in like, um, police interrogation. Where were you and why did you do it? But just giving voice to like the, I feel hurt because of this. And then allowing Catherine to kind of play off that. How would you play off? Yeah. And emotionally focused therapy is the, what that book Hold Me Tight by Dr.

Sue Johnson is all about. You should get a sponsorship, Joanne. We're going to plug that one. Well, we might put some other things. There's, there's a lot that's going on. That's been helpful for us. Um, yeah, I think, um, remind me to come back to the point that you were making about playing off the, the confrontation, the thought that I was originally thinking is I tend to be very emotionally attuned.

Again, sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes that comes from reading a room and trying to make sure that I'm pleasing the people around me. Um, but there were many, many times when we were dating or engaged that I could tell Cody was shutting down. Uh, and I just wanted to keep digging, like, tell me what's wrong.

Explain to me why you're feeling like this. Usually out of a. I just realized that I didn't think about it enough. place of my own fear or insecurity that I needed to correct my behavior so that he would continue to care about me.

his particular mode of operating, um, that he does. Sometimes he just needs five minutes, um, to walk away and to examine his own, his own heart and his own thoughts and figure out what exactly he needs to communicate to me. So yeah, that, that was a big part of just learning that balance between directness and tact is that I didn't, I didn't need to keep asking why things were wrong.

I could trust, um, and I think that's part of it. It was growing in the trust that he would come to me and tell me what was wrong in that. the confrontational style. The direct style. It's not really confrontation. You tell me how you feel and why you feel hurt. Um, I think in responding to that, just the directness, the power of I'm sorry, and I forgive you.

That is something our society, um, Yeah, whether you come from a Christian background or a secular background or anything, how often do people say, I'm sorry? And I, I grew up in the Midwest where you, you say, I'm sorry when you like, you've been there. Yeah. Let me sneak right past you there. Like have actually said that to people as I'm walking through crowds, um, and feeling bad about, you know, they're actually in the way and this is not a me problem, but the power of just Right, whether or not I think I've wronged Cody, um, if he's expressing to me that he's hurt in some way, I need to apologize for that wrong and allow him to say the words, I forgive you.

Again, oftentimes our response to I'm sorry is like, oh, it's okay. No, it's not okay. There has been pain that has been caused and it goes both ways. Um, I, he also hurts me in addition to me hurting him. Um, but yeah, I think just like. Focusing in on that, coming back to a place of connection, that if he expresses, You said this thing in this way, and it hurt me, and this is what I'm experiencing.

Apologizing, returning to a place of connection, and then having a productive conversation of like, Oh, okay, so next time, what do we need to do differently? Was this just a, It's late, and I'm tired, and I'm sorry, and we can just move on? Or is there a pattern here that needs to be, So I can bring an attempt to all of those things.

Good stuff. No, I appreciate you guys going through that. There's so many lessons I just learned from you. Uh, one reminds me of something Layla Miller, the author who's written a lot about, you know, children of divorce and things like that. She said that she identified that people like us from broken families tend to think that conflict leads to permanent separation.

And so the, Logical, I guess, response to that would be to avoid at all costs. And, so, it's really helpful to hear that, no, not only can you actually navigate conflict in a healthy way, which is the goal, for everyone listening, the goal is not to avoid conflict. Usually that's a bad sign in a relationship.

It either means you're saints, or, you know, there's some other big problems underneath the surface that you need to address. Um, but really to make conflict healthy, that's the goal. And so even knowing that like can be mind blowing for people, I guess it's like, wow, conflict can be healthy. Like I never really saw what that looked like that.

That's one lesson. I think the other one too, is that you can get through it and love each other more. Even because of it, I would say, uh, which is kind of wild concept again, like, you know, being married for a bit, you kind of learn these things through trial and error often. Um, but, but yeah, I think for someone, especially who's, who's not at that point yet, it's, this might be pretty mind blowing for them.

So really good stuff. Another thing I wanted to touch on that you guys said was just the importance of trust and all of this. Like if you don't trust someone. It makes conflict really, really challenging. Uh, but if you do, I remember what, uh, the business author Pat Lungione said about trust. He said that, um, trust makes conflict the pursuit of truth.

Trust makes conflict the pursuit of truth, which I found so true. Instead of a battle of egos who are just trying to kind of get the upper hand and win the argument, you're truly debating like what is the best solution and the best course of action. For us as a team, as a couple, as a family, as a marriage.

Um, and so just a few lessons there that I love that you guys went through. Yeah. And I think Joey, you hit on just. That idea that, especially in marriage, it's, it's a little bit different dating and engaged because those are still times when you figure out, is this a person that I want to spend my life with?

But definitely in marriage, it's not about, it's never us versus each other. It's always about, um, I don't know, like, like the marriage itself is this third person and that needs to be preserved above any ego that either Khalid or I have. Um, yeah. And, and maybe defining that as like the love that we have as a married couple needs to be preserved at all costs.

Um, because that, that's more important than what he thinks or I think in any given moment is the fact that we have chosen to commit to each other. I love that. And I remember some, uh, Jordan Peterson said, Cody, you probably remember this of just how, um, when you try to beat your spouse. And if you win, that kind of makes your spouse a loser.

And then it means you're married to a loser. And so it's like, like, you're not really winning in the end. If you like are succeeding at putting your spouse down, which can be difficult to remember in the midst of a conflict, because we get so emotional. I remember our marriage therapist. Um, telling us that when you're angry, when you're emotional, your IQ drops apparently by like 30 points.

And so for those of us with like average IQs, it puts us in the 70 range, which makes us basically like in the range of mental disability. So we're trying to resolve something when we're all like pent up and emotional, especially angry. You're not going to get anywhere with it. And so there's definitely some good tactics that we've learned.

Like one of them, since we're on the conflict topic was calling a time out. And this isn't like a perfect tactic, but we've found it helpful. And for those of you who've never heard of this, basically what you do is prior to any sort of conflict, you just. Agree upon a timeout period, like could be anywhere from 30 minutes to 24 hours.

And then in the midst of a conflict, when things get heated, when you can just say, I need a timeout. And then, you know, the person who calls the timeout would, you know, keep track of the time and then they would resume the conversation as well. And so that's just one little tactic too. But one thing I wanted to mention too, and I'd love to hear any other thoughts you guys have on conflict since we're here.

And I think people find this so valuable is that it's important to remember, like, it's a skill. For some reason, I at least never really thought of it as a skill. I kind of thought of it as like some natural, um, trying to find the right words, like something that's like naturally baked into your character, right?

A natural ability. Maybe, I don't know if that's the right word even, but, um, but basically something you're kind of like born with that you can't really learn. And so knowing that it's a skill, like something you can learn, you can get better at it. Um, I think it is really, really helpful. And on that note, the remembering that there's like different levels of competence.

Um, and the, there's the way I've heard it talked about is there's four levels of competence. There's unconscious competence or unconscious incompetence. I'm sorry. It's the first level. That's like the lowest level. That means like you're not really good at something. You don't really know how bad you are because you don't know what good looks like.

That's unconscious competence. One level up would be. Unconscious incompetence. Sorry. One level up would be, uh, conscious incompetence where like you have a frame of reference now, some sort of anchor, some sort of benchmark. You're like, okay, like I understand that I'm not really good at this, but I'm working to be better at this.

And then when you go one level up, you have, um, Uh, conscious competence, where you've actually gotten good at something, but you have to really focus to be good at it. You have to keep practicing. You have to really like hone that skill. Um, and then from there, you have, uh, unconscious competence, where you don't actually really need to think about it much more, because you've practiced it so much.

That you've gotten to this level, kind of like you mentioned before Cody, where you don't need to think about it. It's just natural. It's kind of baked into your character at that point. Like the virtue has been integrated into who you are. So I found that helpful really with any skill in life, but we can, I guess, apply it to this conflict, uh, skill as well.

No, I mean, I think it's really great way to put it. So the listener doesn't feel discouraged. Right. Um, How do I get from being, like, dating to married and having all this, uh, ability to resolve things and speak clearly to the person that I love? And, uh, I think not just thinking about it as a skill, but thinking about it as, like, another language.

Uh, because first and foremost, like, you can, uh, You can spend all the time you want studying it, but until someone else knows it to speak it with you, you're only playing with, you know, you're missing the other half, right? If the person you're trying to relate to an emulant who doesn't understand the way that you're trying to resolve the conflict or doesn't relate to it.

Have that template either right progress can be made but it's it's slower. It's harder Uh, you're speaking one language and they're trying to point to things and and then dragging around on their end, right? So I think uh, right choosing to read a book together and then we went to marriage counseling before we were married to Kind of help us get through some other Reconcile of both of us having other interior problems that were preventing us from being able to communicate clearly.

Yeah. That's so unique. Go ahead, Joey. And I want to go back into that in a second, but Kathryn, you first, but I love that you guys Even before, you know, you were married. That's so good. But yeah, I think to your point about growing in the competency, um, it was definitely something that we had to grow and we had to learn the same language, but it was also, uh, you're right.

A skill that can be practiced and. If you're not in, in a relationship of some kind, practicing it with roommates or friends, and it can be very small, um, and I think going into those episodes, uh, with, with the benefit of the doubt or assuming that when your roommate doesn't do their dishes, it's not because They were trying to be mean to you and they just really wanted to leave you with a sink full of dirty dishes.

It was maybe they had their own things going on and being able to approach that and say like, Hey roommate, I just noticed that you left your dishes in the sink last night. Just want to check in and make sure everything's okay. Um, make sure you weren't overwhelmed by life. Uh, and just like wanted to, to invite you to do them when you have time or like, if something was going on to do them for them and coming to that place of understanding.

Cause most times When people, uh, yeah, are called out in gentleness, they will respond well. Um, and I, I, I learned that and actually got to practice it a lot, living with three other women. Um, yeah, during my time as a missionary. And so just finding ways in life to practice that skill, whether that's in a dating relationship.

Or just with other people in your life, um, who you have. I, I think it's funny that you, you brought up the thing, um, where there's the saying that you shouldn't, you shouldn't attribute to malice what could be attributed to, uh, incompetence, right? And like, most of the time, people aren't trying to, To really do anything to you, uh, it's, it's a lot of times just out of someone else's own ignorance, right?

Even if they knew something went wrong, they weren't thinking about how it would affect you. Uh, they were too self obsessed. I think one example that just comes to mind recently is we're cleaning out a spare room that we've been using to store all the stuff that we couldn't find a nice new place for in the house.

And, um, this room is like a renovated garage on the side of the house. And we get mice out there. And so as I'm clinging to this box, it's just like full of mouse poop and chewed up stuff. And, uh, so I emptied the box out and I set it aside. Uh, I told my wife, oh, this box is full of mouse poop and stuff. So I'm going to throw out a lot of the.

Uh, fabrics and things that were in there because they're basically ruined now and they all smell and I don't want to wash them. Um, so I put the empty box into the side of the room. And a couple of hours later Kath was like, Ah, there are some loose things in the other room on the other side of the house and they need a box.

And so she goes off to the spare room, grabs the empty box that had all the mouse poop in it, right? Picks it up, takes it to their aunt's house, and puts all, um, I think it was stuff for the baby that's on the way, right? So it's putting all these gifts inside, and I'm like, Catherine, did you just put all of our nice new baby stuff into, like, the rat poop box?

And I got super mad, because I'm like, why would you do that, right? Like, that could have, like, diseases that could be, like, really bad for the baby, and it's just disgusting and gross, and I don't like dealing with all that, because I'm a, I'm not really a germaphobe, but, um Sometimes a little bit. Yeah, it just makes me angry to be sick.

Not that I'm afraid of it. So, whatever the Greek is for germ hater, uh, rather than germ fearful. So, I just get really mad, and it just dawns on me, like, actually, I think if Catherine knew that that was the box, and was in full awareness of that, she wouldn't have chosen to do that. Yeah. So I don't have to be mad at her like she intentionally picked up the poop box and put, you know, nice things inside of it because she just didn't know.

So all I can I should actually stop being mad at her. I should apologize for, for raising my voice like, why did you use this box? And, uh, just kind of move along, okay? Dude, I was mad. I had to go, I had to go, uh, like settle myself. Then I realized, like, I don't know, she just She didn't know what was happening, man.

My wife did not intentionally pick up a poopy box to slight me. Why would she do that? That benefits her in no way whatsoever either. Um, yeah. And perhaps that's something, um, like for someone who might be coming from, Either a broken family or just a family where there was a lot of manipulation, um, that maybe that's a pattern that they saw that there was intentionality behind it.

Um, but just to remember that for the most part, most people are not, trying to manipulate you or harm you in any way. Most people are choosing to live with a desire for your good. Um, especially people who have committed to love you in some way, whether that's friends or family or yeah, someone you're in a relationship with.

So just being attentive to that. No, I love that. Um, I'm curious, like that story, how did you guys resolve that? Or if you don't want to talk about that, any interesting, like recent situation where maybe there was some conflict and you guys were able to resolve it? Well, because I think as much as we're talking principles, it would be cool to kind of tie this together and see, okay, like, what does it look like actually to resolve, you know, a conflict.

So I'm just curious if you have a recent example of something where you maybe butted heads and there is a bit of conflict, but then you guys were able to resolve it. Well, what did that look like? Okay. I mean, with the boxing, of course, right, being the one I just thought of a moment ago, right, it was just like Ah, I realized that it wasn't intentional because why would that be?

Um, and then explaining my wife like I realized that this wasn't intentional because you are Silly enough to do something like that in hell like it was like, yes, I did not intend to do that like I'm so sorry for raising my voice at you and being upset with you. That was unnecessary. Will you please forgive me?

And we're very careful to use it like that. Will you forgive me? I forgive you language, right? Yeah. To roll it back further, you, you raised your voice and were like, and said something along the lines of, Did you use the, you weren't particularly PC about calling it the mouse poop box, but you did ask if I used that box.

And I was like, I didn't realize it was the box. I'll go change it out. And probably I, I did roll my eyes and wander back to the other room to grab a different box and then proceed to bend over and sort it probably being a little upset with you. Um, At, you know, like, this didn't seem like a big issue, but it clearly was, um, and then in that Cody taking, you know, a minute to reflect on his actions, realizing that it wasn't intentional, and therefore was in need of apology.

Um, and after that. Yeah, just like forgiving him and moving on because there are a lot of things, uh, I think that's one of the things I'm realizing about marriage is you could stay upset at your spouse pretty much every minute of every day because there's a lot that they do that's very annoying. Uh, and just realizing that if we choose to live in that place, we become bitter, upset, angry people.

And those aren't necessarily patterns that we want in our life. So choosing to move on. And I think the box has been thrown away. It probably should. Okay. Cool. No, I love that. And, and I think it's good to know that that's kind of a natural part of marriage. That's like, you know, kind of butting heads, rubbing up against each other the wrong way.

Maybe taking a little bit of a breather space, coming back together, resolving things like that. That's beautiful. That's what it can look like. And that's doable, right? As we were talking about, it's a skill, it's a virtue that you can acquire, you can practice, you can learn. You're going to mess up, you're going to go through those different levels of competence.

And then, if you work at it, in the end, you'll be good at it. And so, Yeah. I think this is really, really beautiful and helpful and encouraging, honestly, for, for so many people listening a couple, um, other tactics that come to mind too. I think it's so important within marriage to just learn to let the small things go.

Cause Catherine, like you just said, it's like there, you can nitpick anything and everything. And maybe depending on your personality, some people are so chilled. They like, don't really care. Other people are more, maybe, you know, nitpicky by nature. And so I think like, Remembering that, you know, you don't need to voice your opinion about everything.

That's at least my opinion. You can let the little things go. Like, talk about the important things, talk about what bothers you. And maybe this conflicts a little bit with what you guys learned, but this is just something that I learned from another psychologist. Um, and so for me, that's been really helpful, not just in marriage, but in other relationships too.

And the whole idea that, you know, you can't put out every fire if you do, you're going to be like exhausted. You're going to be like, not able to maintain any sort of like health and like peace in your life. And so the idea of like, sometimes you need to let small fires burn, let small fires burn. That's okay.

So I'm just curious if your opinion on it, if you'd want to disagree, feel free, not offended, um, But yeah, curious about that. And, uh, also curious if you guys like repeat back, uh, like in conflict, if you repeat back kind of what you hear the other person saying, and for that's a tactic too, in order to like, make sure you're really understanding what the, where they're going.

Yeah. Just to hit on what you said, Joey, I think part of it might be a personality thing. I totally agree. Letting the small things go. If we get upset about everything, yeah, we tend to be miserable people. I think also attentiveness, um, to who. We are as individuals. I know my particular pattern is I will let everything go, assume the benefit of the doubt and everything.

And then I never deal with conflict. And instead I'm stewing about the dirty dishes that my roommate has left. Um, yeah, then she's miserable for a while. I'm like, honey, what's wrong? And there's just this great big sigh. And. It's going to be like an hour of conversation that has to happen. Yeah. There was one time really recently that it was something, it was like a whole, I was, I was so upset with Cody for like a whole week or a couple of days.

And we like, it started, we started meeting to talk through it. Cause I was like, I'm just upset with you. I'm frustrated. I can't work. I can't work out what's wrong. Um, and then we sat down and again, I'm a slow processor. So it took me. You know, half an hour, an hour to communicate all of those things to him.

And by the time we got, and he listened to so well, you, you really are a great listener and to your point about using feedback where he'll respond and say, I'm hearing you say this, like, are we making sure, like, I'm still tracking with you? And by the time we got to the end of the discussion, I wasn't upset with him about anything.

It was that I needed to buy this particular baby product, and I just hadn't bought it yet, and that was causing me stress. And so he, the way to resolve that was actually, he made me take off my laptop and just like, hop on, The internet and buy what I needed and it was so funny because it's like I was so upset with him for like, I can't remember if it was days or something.

Yeah. There was this part of me that was like the whole, whole Sunday morning, like pre mass, go to church, come back from mass. And it's just like, why are you mad at me? Conversation goes on for at least an hour and a half and it's like, I need to shop. It's like, no, no, no, what's, what have I done? Like nothing.

You've done nothing. I just need to buy this thing. It's like, well, I'm not against you buying that. Like, have I told you that I don't want you to buy that? No, I just need to get it. The budget's tight. There you go.

So what have I done wrong? It's like nothing. So, anyway, being attentive to who I am, willing to take time to work through those things, right, and, and resolve conflict. Um, but realizing that I, by personality, will let things build up, and I found that that's very unhealthy. Um, so, listener, if, if that's you, where you tend to, um, Lump everything together and all of a sudden you're so frustrated at your spouse or your significant other or just a friend That you explode and then realize at the end of the day that it's actually nothing that they've done You've just let all the small things build up.

I encourage you to to take one small step, encourage, and just address whatever that small conflict is at the beginning. That the thing for me was probably he was driving over the speed limit or did something. I'm a backseat driver. So, so when Cody drives, uh, I clearly have control issues. And so if I had just addressed that right away, would we have gotten to a point?

Um, and, and it was good that we ended up. Getting to a point where I addressed the thing that I was actually stressed out about. Um, but had I addressed maybe moments along the way that could have been avoided good stuff. No, I appreciate you guys going through all that and I think that the what i'm learning from you is know yourself That's like the first principle, right?

Which I think is so important, like you said, Kevin, because yeah, if you are a person who lets like everything go, then you're going to just build up resentment. And resentment, what I've seen, can slowly just like poison your relationship. It's kind of like a, you know, an illness, like slowly silently eating away at your body.

And, and that's horrible. So yeah, that's not a good thing too. So I think there is that balance between knowing yourself and then, you know, being able to let small things go, but then also voicing something so it doesn't just build up and become this huge thing. Because yeah, I think so many marriages end up falling apart probably because, you know, they didn't communicate anything or the way in which they communicated didn't resolve anything.

So it was just this big thing under the surface that was just growing to become this mammoth of a, Problem. And then it's just like, well, where do we go from here? And it can, it can feel hopeless though. There is so much hope there. I've seen even horrible, rough marriages come back. Um, and so there is so much hope there, but guys, we've got to wrap up.

I just was curious to just quick questions for you, Cody. I remember you sharing the motto that Catherine, you alluded to earlier of like, just do it scared. I remember, I think you heard it on the podcast at some point. I'm just curious. Okay, well, I didn't come up with that. It was, it was, uh, Rory Vaden, just to set the record straight, is a business author who I learned that from, and so I'm glad I could pass that to you, but I can't take full credit from, but I'm so glad.

So I'm just curious, like, to someone listening right now who is paralyzed by fear, on that motto of do it scared, what would you say to them, especially if they're like holding back in relationships that are like, They could be really good and beautiful and healthy, but they're just afraid. Hell yeah, I don't really know what else to add beyond that, because it is so important to just face that fear, even though it is pretty paralyzing.

I've just experienced it kind of like, the lock up, the tenseness, right, just that, like anxiety enough to make you sweat. And just the willingness to go through with it and, uh, first and foremost, to see that it's like, really not all that bad. And your brain, right, is working very hard to protect you from the worst possible thing that could happen.

The good news is it's working way too hard. And it's probably not going to be that bad. And even if it is bad, right, you're going to feel so good after having just crossed that boundary. Because one, you can, you can look to yourself and say, Hey, look, I did it. Like it's capable. I can rise above the things that fear I feel.

And again, your brain is really good at trying to protect you from catastrophic things, which if you experience divorce or trauma in your life, Your brain is going to be very, very attuned to protecting you from terrible catastrophe. It just works way too hard. I would also say, from a scientific perspective, that is actually what your amygdala, your fear center, has been trained to do.

And right, that's a, if you encountered a black bear in the woods, your brain would tell you to run away. And that is a good fear response, and you want your brain to continue. Yeah. responding that way when we have a pattern either in our family of origins or in other situations, um, where our response to fear has always been to run away.

We've trained our brains to always run away. And the only way to untrain the brain is actually to go back in to acknowledge where we're feeling fear and then choose to take a step backwards. Um, there's a whole, um, Optimal Work is the business organization that's been doing a lot of taking this research on the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex and then applying it in a work setting.

Like, oh, if you get frustrated by a project or you don't want to have conflict with your manager or an employee or something, they're trying to take that science, um, and apply it, yeah, in a work setting. But it's, it's totally true in conflict, in marriage, in relationships. And I think to that point, my advice would just be learning to name the fear that saying out loud, whether you're a spiritual person and that's in prayer, or if it's just you standing in your room saying, I am afraid of, and working through that most of the time for us, for people, as they get to know themselves, it goes back to like, uh, I am afraid of being unloved or unchosen or unwanted or rejected or, or any of the lies that we can believe about ourselves.

And being able to name that fear is important first for us overcoming it. And then as you're in a relationship with someone, there have been numerous times where we were in conflict. And the thing that I actually need to do is say, I am afraid. That you won't love me or you will be upset with me because of X, Y, and Z.

And, and Cody being able to address that fear directly is then very important. Um, yeah, and so entering into that place of, of doing it scared. One, one really beautiful thing about Katherine's analogy of seeing the black bear and feeling afraid and then wanting to run away is what you're, Not supposed to do when encountering a black bear is run away.

You'll actually trigger their fear response, uh, and they'll chase you and possibly maul you. So you're, uh, if you encounter a black bear, uh, call to it. Signal to it that you're there and it'll probably leave you alone. And if it does decide to charge you, Countercharge yelling, running and screaming. I don't think this is legal or wilderness or black advice.

Uh, you do it instead, but it's, it's a, it really beautifully demonstrates that your brain wants you to do a thing that probably isn't helpful, right? Which is to catastrophize or to try to appease or do all these other things that you will think will get you out of the scenario in an easier, painless way.

When the reality is it needs to be addressed. You have to yell at the bear. You have to charge the bear. You have to deal with the bear, not run away from the bear. It's a good job at having a terrible memory of wilderness survival on really pretty, beautiful. The point being that your amygdala in response to actual dangerous situations will teach you to run away.

And that is a natural inborn trait. Um, maybe, maybe wolves. Wolves in the woods, as opposed to black bears, because Kony is right. There you go. Don't run from bears. Changed the analogy a little bit. Don't run from black bears. Even a grizzly bear can run like 40 miles per hour, like you're not, you can do like three.

Like they're going to be on you. Well, you might, you guys might have just saved a life right now. So thank you for all of that. And no, it's a, it's good stuff. And totally understand what you both are saying and um, men really, really helpful. I love to keep talking, but I know we're at the end of our time and just wanted to give you guys the final word.

Catherine, I'll go to you first and Cody if you want to add any advice, I'm curious, like we have people listening right now who they don't come from broken families, but they are maybe dating or engaged or perhaps even, you know, newly married. to someone who comes from a broken family, maybe married for a little bit while.

Um, just curious. Yeah. What advice or what lessons maybe Catherine, you've learned that you would like to pass along to like the younger you that's listening. So I'll give you guys the final word. And again, Cody, feel free to jump in as well. And thanks so much for coming on the show. I'm just really honored.

Absolutely, Jerry. It's been so fun to, to be here and to share our story, um, and share what, what little we can, uh, as we've learned in the first couple months of marriage and our, yeah, our whole preparation for that. Um, I think just recognizing that I, as someone who came from an intact family and had no close friends who really dealt with divorce, um, To be willing to acknowledge my own naivete or my own, like, lack of understanding what was actually coming, um, and I think that came up a lot in the wedding planning process.

I, I think I always just had this image that I was going to marry a man from a large family and we were just, and I was going to get to be a part of his family because that was something that was very important to me, um, and just the whole idea that there would be parents that were, We're not amiable with each other, even in divorce.

I think I always have this picture of like, oh, we still live in the same town and we talk to each other. Um, cause that had been my one experience of divorce with my cousins. Um, but I was just, I was maybe a little blindsided, um, just by some of the relationships navigating, especially wedding planning.

like inviting both mom and dad and wanting them to be there because it was an important day, but then how do we deal with step parents? What role do they play? What does that impact? And even now preparing for our first kid, like what do we, what do we call grandparents? Do they get special names? How does that work?

Um, and so just, you know, Being, I think reminding my younger self that just being honest with those places that I didn't know what was coming Um, and being willing just to yeah to to listen to you in those places Um, but also to be okay with challenging you Um, yeah, I have I have this vision for our family for all families that they would be a place of love of connection of opportunities for growth for both spouses and children and anyone else who gets to witness that family's life.

Um, and so, yeah, just reminding myself to, to listen to you in the things that you needed, especially wedding planning. I think that was a little stressful to do. Um, just having, planning a wedding twice. Um, yeah, we, we ended up postponing our wedding, um, a month or so before it was actually supposed to go through.

So, yes, which a third great episode could be all about that. Um, but just, yeah, navigating those relationships. And also holding on to the ideal, like never being willing to set aside that there is something different that we want for our family. And, and it's been so good even now to continue to remind Cody and myself of that, that we want to do things differently.

We don't want our marriage to end in divorce. We're willing to work at it. We're willing to invest a lot of time and money. I know counseling is expensive and that was something that we committed to and continue to commit. Um, and so being willing to invest, um, in those things that will help us be, yeah, the best Stosses that we can be.

Again, big thanks to Catherine Cody for coming on the show. I'm really excited for you guys. Congrats on your new baby. And, uh, yeah, I know you guys are going to be great parents. So excited to see you grow into that role. If you guys want more content like this, more practical tips on how to navigate conflict and even build a really healthy, beautiful marriage, either now or in the future, we have a free guide for you.

The problem I think that all of us face is that We all desire love, but if we're honest, when most of us aren't sure how to go about building and to make matters worse, we're often discouraged by the prevalence of divorce. And doing maybe fear that our own marriage will end that way, especially if we saw our parents marriage fall apart growing up.

And so in this practical guide for singles and for couples, we have for a roadmap for love, really simple, practical roadmap for love based on marriage research. Time tested couples and Christianity's wisdom. The guide contains seven practical tips to build a healthy relationship and even a divorce proof future marriage.

And so if you want the guide, just go to restored ministry. com slash marriage, or just click on the link in the show notes again, restored ministry. com slash marriage, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them.

Honestly, feel free to take 30 seconds now and just shoot him a message, uh, if you'd like. And in closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.