#121: A Cure for Feeling Needy or Helpless | Margaret Vasquez

So many people from broken families struggle with feeling helpless or needy. Our efforts to heal or grow might even feel fruitless like tires spinning in mud that never gain traction. We put in effort in learning, but transformation isn’t happening. 

Whether that describes you or someone you know (like a friend, parent, or anyone else), this episode will help you!  In it, you’ll learn: 

• The simple solution to beat neediness and helplessness

• Why struggles are actually good for you

• The most important question you can ask to move beyond grief

Margaret’s Website

Dakota Lane Fitness

Buy Margaret’s Book: Fearless

Buy Margaret’s Book: Fearless

Buy Margaret’s Book: More Than Words

Get Margaret’s Course: Broken to Whole

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

[00:00:00] So many people like us who come from broken families struggle with feeling helpless and even needing, we might even feel like we're too much for the people around us and our efforts toward healing and growth might feel kind of fruitless. Like we're spinning our tires in mud, but we're never really getting anywhere.

Now, maybe that's not you, but maybe you know, someone who struggles in that area, a friend, a parent, a boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever, either way, this episode is going to help you in it. You're going to learn things like the simple solution to beat neediness and helplessness from a trauma therapist. Why struggles are actually good.

For you, what this looks like, if you have a disability, we answer the question, does grieving have a place? And the most important question that you can ask to move beyond grief. Again, if you've struggled with feeling like you're too much, feeling helpless, stuck or needy, or maybe you know someone who struggles in that way, this episode is for you.

It's for you. Stay with us.

 [00:01:00] Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 121. As we often say in the show, we're so happy that this podcast has been helpful and even healing for you.

We've heard so much great feedback. One listener said this. Only God knows where I would be if this ministry didn't exist. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out, eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach. We're going to Who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot in a [00:02:00] gym Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? Three things. One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy ripped dude. He's also a good virtuous man to not just caught up in his body and his looks to, he actually studied to become a priest for a little while.

And from that experience and his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body. We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free.

to love. And the third thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people, you know, get ripped, but to lead them to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this. [00:03:00] Dakota Lane changed my life, and the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have experienced, just go to DakotaLaneFitness. com or click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez. Margaret holds a bachelor's degree in theology and a master's degree in counseling, both from Franciscan University of Steubenville.

She is a licensed professional clinical counselor with supervisory designation, holds numerous trauma certifications, is certified in Myers Briggs, and is the founder and director of Sacred Heart Healing Ministries. For the past 18 years she has treated clients of all ages from all around the world.

She's appeared on numerous episodes of Women of Grace on EWTN as well as many radio shows and podcasts. She's the author of More Than Words, The Freedom to [00:04:00] Thrive After Trauma and Fearless, Abundant Life Through Infinite Love. She hosts the Wholeness and Holiness podcast, a weekly podcast on human and spiritual integration.

She provides healing missions. Uh, retreats, one week, uh, individual healing programs and intensive trauma therapy. Her passion is for all people to come to know the surpassing love of God. And lastly, she is the instructor of our video course at Restored called Broken to Whole Tactics to Heal from Your Parents Divorce.

And so if you're interested in that, I'll tell you more at the end, how you can get that it's free actually right now. It might change in the future, but I'll tell you more at the end of this episode. And by the way, in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that this is not a religious podcast. If you don't believe in God, I would just challenge you to listen with an open mind. Um, even if you're to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit so much from this episode. If you do have kids around, I recommend just maybe putting in some earphones because we do talk about some [00:05:00] mature topics in this episode.

And finally, we do jump back and forth a bit between the mental and emotional aspects of this problem of neediness, helplessness. Um, and so in my mind, those are distinct different things. Uh, but in this conversation, we kind of meld them together. And so when you hear the word mental, you can also think of the word emotional too.

With that, here's my conversation with Margaret. Margaret, welcome back. So good to have you. It's always great to be with you, Joey. I wanted to dive right in. There's, I think this temptation we all face, all of us when it comes to healing and growth, and that is that we consume information, right? We listen to podcasts, we read books, we attend retreats, all really good things to gain knowledge, but we never really take action on what we're learning.

Like we don't transform, we don't apply what we've learned. And it's kind of crass, but I've heard some people say that You know, it's kind of like a mental masturbation where we get this high from learning, but it doesn't really lead to much. And so two questions there, what's happening here and why do we do [00:06:00] that?

Actually, even though it is crass, I like that, that explanation because it doesn't bear fruit and it just creates like a lot of emotion. You know what I mean? So just a lot of emotion. There's a lot of feeling going on, but like there's no fruit the same as masturbation. So, so there is a, to me it, it kind of fits.

So what's going on there. I, I kind of look at it, like come from a number of places. I actually had a person, this person was actually a friend, not a client, but. Um, said to me, now had been through definitely painful growing up, painful childhood, but this person actually said, no, it's not fair for me to have to basically, she was talking about taking care of herself emotionally.

Um, nope, it's not fair. I deserve to have been taken care of by somebody else as a child. And so I'm not going to take care of me now. And I was just like shocked that anybody would actually say, we're, we're not friends anymore. It was not based on that. There was, there's more to it than that. But, but I just was like, wow, how astounding that [00:07:00] somebody would actually be cognizant of that.

And then just deciding like, no, it's not fair. And so I'm not going to do that. I think for some people, I like to think that for people, it, It can maybe even more often not be something that they're consciously aware of and maybe that they feel like they're, um, like they can't take care of themselves.

Like they're, you know, incapable. Maybe it's more of that. I, I like to think that because it's hard for, hard for me to think somebody just decides like to dig their heels in and refuse, you know, so then it leads to outsourcing that care of our emotional selves to other people because my, my My need for emotional self care isn't going to go away.

My own personal growth and responsibility and the need for that isn't going to go anywhere. And if I'm not taking care of it myself, then gonna intentionally or unintentionally kind of be approaching the world with kind of, um, I'd look at it like constantly job posting. Right. Here's my, here's my unpublished classified ad of like, are you my, are you [00:08:00] know, or the, the little kid book, right?

Are you my mommy? Do you remember that book? The little bird, the little bird falls out of his nest and he's walking through and he's asking like this big bulldozer, like, are you my mommy? And he's like walking through like the world. Are you my mommy? We kind of end up walking through the world kind of with this attitude, like, are you my mom?

Are you my dad? Will you take care of me? Sort of thing. If we're not doing it ourselves, because that, I look at it like that need for, for self care, for kind of, for parenting doesn't go away. Just when we hit 18 or move out of our parents homes or whatever, but it becomes incumbent on us to do that ourselves.

Of course, finding the right resources. And, and of course, all of this would be it from my perspective, relying on, on the Lord's help, but then it's kind of taking on the mind of Christ towards that care to be that need for love directed to him first. But then I have to, like, actually change my self talk to line up with his, because if I'm going, like, God make me feel [00:09:00] loved, but then my constant self talk is I'm terrible and everybody's better than me and, you know, God couldn't really love me because if you knew how I'm, all the different, you know, ways I'm terrible, like, you know, you'd understand.

So we just deflect his love, right? So we kind of go to him with this, this big bowl, asking him to fill it, and we have a lid on it. You know, or can kind of look at it like our, our metaphorical love bucket, and we're just poking holes in it. And so, you know, he's pouring Niagara Falls into it, but at the end of the day, it's still empty because of all the holes I've jabbed in it.

So then we still end up feeling empty. And so then we turn to, you know, the person who's right in front of us to get that need met. 100%. And I, I think one thing to add there too is like, you said this so well, there is a real need there. It's just a matter of like, how do you go about filling that need?

We're not like putting that down. We're not saying, you know, you don't need other people in your life. We're just saying the relationships just need to be healthy. Right. And we need to go to God first. And then from there, you know, we can experience the love [00:10:00] of other people and that could be incredibly healing.

Um, but if things are upside down, then it just becomes this, you said before this vicious cycle where there's a lot of. Motion or, you know, we never like gained ground basically, there's a lot of like movement, but never gaining any ground and I think not only is it frustrating for the people in your life around you who might be like trying to help you, but it's also frustrating for you because it's like, man, I just seem like just stuck like I got and I might be moving my feet a lot, but I'm never moving forward.

Yeah, and you know, I remember being in that spot like, you know, before I went through trauma therapy, actually, because I was just in such an emotionally needy spot. And I didn't really understand how these I feel like we don't get taught how these things fit together, you know, but I'm working on a book on that.

But, um, Without understanding how these things work together, um, on a very, uh, just kind of, just even visceral, like, level, like, feeling such a desperate need for love, like, kind of being in that, in that place, like that job posting thing. it ends up leading to rejection [00:11:00] because that, that neediness, right?

And then that becomes, and I think it leads to rejection because others have their hands full taking care of their own emotional selves and their lives, right? And so when we kind of have that feeling like somebody's trying to get from me what I'm, I'm busy over here doing it for myself. Like you do it for yourself too.

And like, it'll be fine. Then we can relate to each other like adults and from a place of peace instead of you're trying to get from me what Only the Lord can do for you. And then you need to really, um, really receive and, and take on and, and kind of do for yourself as well. If we're not doing that, right, if we're outsourcing that to someone else, they're kind of, whether they're cognizant of it or not, it kind of makes us feel like our insides are twisting, you know, and we're like, it's kind of an icky feeling.

And so we just kind of, we inadvertently like, Push that person away. And so then to the, being the person on that end, it's a feeling of rejection. And, and so I think the cycle is then the person becomes [00:12:00] that much more, they don't understand. That dynamic. Right. And so then they really internalize the way their behavior is being responded to as being essential to who they are.

Does that make sense? Like, I'm rejectable. I'm not lovable. I'm like, no, you're fine. Like, just don't do that. Like, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I think it really creates like a vicious cycle. No, I couldn't agree more. And I think the experience and we are like, we're empathizing with people who've been there.

Cause I've been there too, where you just feel this immense amount of need. Like you feel the real need underneath it all and you just take it to the wrong source. Like I've, I've done that, but I think this experience of feeling like you're too much, I've heard people say that a lot. Like, I feel like I'm just too much, like no one can really handle me.

There can then be that, like you said, that regression where it's like, well, this is just the way that I am. And other people aren't strong enough to handle my stuff. Therefore, I'm doomed to this life of loneliness and, you know, self pity and all this, all this stuff. That's really, it's depressing and sad.

And [00:13:00] again, I've been there. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be like that. I think just understanding how it works then is really a game changer because the way I see it is like. We each plug into the Lord first, and I don't mean first, like, okay, first, like, that, that box is checked, now moving on to time to plug into somebody else.

No, it's like, that's a foundational source. And if we do that and staying connected in that way. Now he's going to be able to supply all of those emotional needs like infinitely more than we could ask or imagine and even if we don't feel it in a warm fuzzy way all the time, right? But the more I begin to like align my way of seeing myself with how he sees myself.

he sees me, then like St. Thomas Aquinas says, what's received is received according to the mode of the receiver, right? So if my mode is, I'm not lovable, I can participate in whatever workshops or listen to whatever homilies or talks or teachings or read whatever self help books or whatever. [00:14:00] And I'm never going to come to a different way of seeing myself because my mode is, I'm not lovable.

So I'll just deflect everything else like, well, if you knew my past or if you knew this or if you knew that, or I'm not like other people who are special or whatever, you know, and so then we end up not receiving that stuff. I also, I also think there's a way I remember this myself, like when I was in that, More of that, you know, needy.

I hate that word because I was in that spot for so long. But when I was in that spot, like, I remember it seemed like there was, um, almost like a different species of people that it was just easy for. Do you know what I mean? And like, I wasn't like those people. And so those people needed to take care of people like me, you know, or something.

Right. And then the more you really kind of do this internal work and realize like, okay, kind of, there's a, I think there's a way where in the beginning it's a lot of work, right? But the more you get that in place, then it becomes like having pipes running water into your house, [00:15:00] right? When When the pipes are first being laid, I'm sure that's a lot of work.

I've never done anything like that, but I'm sure it's a lot of digging and, and like, oh my goodness and heavy and, and all the stuff. But once it's going, then, okay, there's a flow to it. And it's not so much work going forward. Right. But, um, but it's not like that, that person who has the flow going is, is in any way inherently different than anybody else.

And. If, you know, somebody that let's say the have like, okay, I'm going to be really nice and go outside of myself and take care of this person in an ongoing way. Not that we, you know, aren't generous and charitable and whatever, but in an ongoing way, the fostering of that dependency does no big picture kind of favor for that person who's in that have not spot.

If anything, it just is going to. Unintentionally, but like reiterate the message that you're not like me, you're not capable and [00:16:00] peace and contentment is contingent on me instead of on, you know, on the Lord and your ability to, um, to really foster that relationship and take on the mind of Christ for yourself and, and that kind of thing.

So good. There's so much that I want to comment on. One of the things I just wanted to say was, I think what goes along with this neediness and relying on people in, you know, unhealthy ways, is that we are almost like afraid of solitude. I think solitude gets kind of a bad rap because it's so important for growth, right?

We have to like sit alone, like with ourselves and like you said with God too, and kind of face ourselves. And I noticed in myself when I was kind of in these ruts of down spiraling into self pity and neediness, I was kind of trying to avoid that. I was trying to avoid facing myself because it was scary, it was intense or whatever.

And I think like when that's your posture of like, no, no, no, I'm going to take this fight, like, where it needs to go. I'm going to face myself. I'm going to work on myself. I'm going to actually transform. At that point, [00:17:00] plugging the right people into your life who can help you accomplish that is beautiful.

Like, I've had mentors come along me, like, spiritual directors, therapists, like, who then helped me achieve that. But I'm not looking to them to do it for me. And, and like the author John Eldredge says, this kind of dynamic can often happen with men and women. Um, where men, if they don't know that they're men, if they haven't like received that strength, that affirmation from other men, then they'll often go to women seeking that strength.

For the woman to like give him that strength. And it's just not positive. It's not how we're made. We can't do that. And so there's just this like, Constant, vicious cycle of like, you know, I need you to be, like you said, my mom and give me strength and affirmation when it's like, no, you need to go to God and other men in your life to receive that strength.

And then you have that strength to offer to the people in your life, especially, you know, like your spouse, which I think is really, really good and beautiful. And so I think that there's a difference in posture when you go to mentors to kind of, you know, fill the need for you versus help you fill the need [00:18:00] yourself.

Yeah, and, and I would even say, like, so here's a feminine perspective on that, but I think you can even see that, um, not so much as the man, um, sometimes, right, but I'm just saying, like, what initially comes to mind when you say that is, like, kind of a, kind of a weak man's kind of like, you know, kind of more wimpy or whatever.

But it, it can be insidious, right? It can also be the man who, who seeks out really weak women always has to be with a damsel in distress, right? I have to find somebody to rescue because that makes me feel strong. And I see that, I see that a lot. I see a lot of times like men are just Men just being attracted to like weakness because, because it makes him feel strong.

But the sad thing in that is like, okay, if she ends up getting help and really becoming the fullness of who God's created her to be, that's going to change up that dance. And is it going to so threaten you and, and, you know, destroy the relationship because you don't want anybody being locked into, you know, we can, a way that's not [00:19:00] who the who God created him to be, right?

We're all called to grow into the full stature of Christ, you know. That's so good. And I think we're hitting the right balance here because we, I want to, for anyone who's stuck in this situation right now, I want you to know, like, we feel you, like we get where you are. We've been there, like, we're not putting you down in any way, but we love you too much to leave you there.

We want to help you. Get to the spot where we know that you're going to be more functional, healthier, and then thrive and experience a lot of joy. Like, there's a lot of joy that comes along with learning how to stand on your own two feet, having the backbone, being able to, you know, relate to others in like healthy ways and not go to them to just, again, be constantly pouring into this kind of endless hole, this bottomless pit.

Right. And the, and the lies, um, that that cycle. Tells you isn't fair to you because they're because they're lies. Like, it's not the truth. There's nothing inherent about you and who you are. Right. And so, so just understanding how these things fit together, I think, can kind of pull the curtain back on that.

I mean, like, what? Like, this isn't who I am. Like, you know, if it [00:20:00] wasn't who you are, and it's not who I am. And like, there must be There must be something to this because we were both in those spots and now, you know, not that there isn't still ongoing, you know, growth, hopefully there is for everybody as long as we're breathing, right?

I think that's good news, though, you know, not bad news. And so just understanding how it fits together and that, you know, if people are relating to you in a way that feels like consistently rejecting, you know, then it's not about who you are, like plug into the Lord first. Honestly, you know, there was a point number of years ago, well, early years of practice, I remember thinking like, okay, the people in my world, because I'm, single and live alone.

The people in my world who need from me are really basically clients. So if I'm walking into the office to see somebody, that's somebody who's, who's in need, which is true, but it came to realize like, no, every time I walk outside of my house, there's people in need, you know? [00:21:00] And so it doesn't become my job to take care of them.

Like I'm, I'm, I'm not the Messiah, of course, still being kind and charitable and just kind of understanding that, that a lot of people are coming from a place of, even if they might seem like the ones that are the haves, right? You know, relational or emotional haves at any given time, every day has.

Troubles enough of its own as scripture says, you know, and there's everybody's fighting a great battle. You know, another famous quote, you know, kind of thing, but just a always kind of, in my mind, I picture it like pipes, right? Like if I, if I keep the end of my pipe, like connected to the Lord, then I look at myself as the desire.

To be like a conduit of grace, but it's his grace. It's not my grace. If I'm supposed to be a source of grace, I'm tapped out before I get out of bed. You know what I mean? Like there's none there. But if we're plugging into the Lord, then anybody, even the people who feel like they're in that have not spot, we [00:22:00] can get to a place of feeling like we're starting with the needle on full instead of on empty.

You know, and I think that's really possible for everybody. No, I totally agree. And I think like, yeah, knowing those healthy limits is so good at both for yourself and in relationship to other people. Um, yeah. And it ends up again, making you healthier, happier. It's so good. And it just opens up. Uh, doors that maybe you don't even think are possible to open.

You don't even know because you haven't been there yet, but I promise it's, it's worth it. But, uh, one final analogy. And then I wanted to share something from kind of the art world, uh, on this topic. So one analogy I like to think of when it comes to this, like, how do you, you know, kind of rely on people in an unhealthy way?

And I think athletics is a great analogy. So if you think about it, you know, I was a baseball player for years, play different sports like football, volleyball, things like that. But it's like, you know, the coaches were there to help me. Yeah. But they weren't going to lift the weights for me, you know, they weren't going to like run the sprints, they weren't going to field the ground balls, they weren't going to spend hours in the batting cage, like, I had to do that.

They were going to be there to like show [00:23:00] me, um, you know, they were going to be there to like support me, to help me, to, to guide me, um, but they weren't going to get in there and do it for me. And I remember hearing this quote from Dave Ramsey too, he said, you know, God feeds the birds, but he doesn't throw the worms in the nest.

Like you got to get after it. And I think, I think there's so much truth to that. And I think that could feel difficult for some people if you're like really in a tough rut. But, um, but it is, I think taking that ownership and being like, okay, maybe you were dealt a tough hand in life, but it's like, you know, I don't have a say necessarily over what happened to me.

But from this moment on, I am taking ownership of the solution of my life. Like, I'm not going to let that. Write my story. Like I want to write my own story. And I think there's a lot of beauty there. And a lot of people I've seen who've like transformed their lives, like they take that perspective. And one of my recent guests, Stacy, she said something like, um, broken is what happened to me, not who I am.

So often we walk through life thinking like, well, I'm just really broken and I'm always going to be like this. And, you know, again, there's a point to grieving. We'll get to that a little bit [00:24:00] later, but at some point we got to like, you know, get after it, move on. Yeah. Yeah. And shame on your coach. If they did do the train, the sprints and the batting cage and everything for you, because it cripples you and they're just getting stronger and stronger and stronger.

So there's a quote, I'm 99 percent sure the, the person this is attributed to is a guy named Frank layman, Frank P layman, not sure who he is, but I just remember coming across it at one point and it says the kids, the world. Almost breaks become the ones most likely to change it. And it's just, it's beautiful.

Isn't it like that having, having been one of those kids, like it's that just like tugs at my heart every time. But I think there's something to that. I think there's a lot of hope in that. If you feel like you're somebody who's in that spot, then that means like. You have a secret insight into the world and pain in a way that God can really use, you know, for you to be a very particular conduit of grace or healing or, you know, whatever it is [00:25:00] in, in the lives of others or, you know, those around you or through your ministry.

No, so good. And that like gave me the chills, that quote, and it fires me up because like, yeah, I want to be that person, right. For other people just to speak vulnerably. And yeah, no, it's beautiful. Uh, switching from sports to art. So I think one of the other aspects to this whole struggle is that there's a lot of, um, comfort.

in the familiarity. Like, like there's this weird thing that we kind of are comfortable in our own misery. Sure. Um, even if it's something that's bad for us, it's not leading us to a better place. And so, um, the, the rapper NF, he's like this clean rapper. He has a song called happy. Are you going to wrap this?

I think you should wrap it, Joey. So it's him, you know, singing actually to God of all people. So he's singing to God and in the song he raps these lines, which I won't make you all suffer through for me, but, but it's, it's really, really good stuff. So he says, he says, I don't know why, but I feel more comfortable living in my agony, watching my self [00:26:00] esteem go up in flames, acting like I don't care.

When anyone else thinks when I know truthfully, That, that's the furthest thing from how I feel, but I'm too proud to open up and ask you to pick me up and pull me out this hole I'm trapped in. The truth is I need help, but I just can't imagine who I'd be if I was happy. Yeah. So, so anyway, there's a few different things going on there.

Like, obviously like the one point of like, it's not bad to ask for help. We're just saying to do it in the right way. So he kind of hits on that. I just wanted to clarify that point. Um, but really that like, man, we're just comfortable. And kind of the status quo, and I think it's really important to break out of that.

So how do we break out of that and take action? I think taking action is breaking, is how we break out of it. I don't, I don't know that there's ever a point when it just becomes easy in the beginning, right? It becomes easier by doing it. It's like lifting, right? Like lifting weights, the weight becomes lighter.

The more you lift it, but if it's something that's going to cause you to grow when you walk up to it, it's heavy initially, right? You have to have to start pumping [00:27:00] it. And anytime we, you know, especially going back to the sports analogy, having played sports as well, we don't have muscle memory of something yet.

Right. Feels really awkward, right? It's like, am I doing this right? Like, you know, I don't know. It just, you're having to concentrate on, you know, batting, right? Your stance, where are my feet? How am I holding my elbows? How am I following through? Like, okay. Oh, watch the ball. That's a thing too. Like trying to put all these things together at the same time and not get beamed in the head, you know, and like, whatever.

But the more you do it, the more natural it becomes. And to the point where it's just, yeah, you don't even have to think about it. You just, you just get up there and you're, you know, it just feels right and flows, you know, and, um, actually becomes relaxing and enjoyable, you know, and then pretty soon you don't even, somebody else has to point it out to you that you're, that you're doing it, you know, and maybe not in terms of batting, but living in a, in a healthy place or from that place of wholeness.

I [00:28:00] think if we wait, if we, Wait to want to do it or wait to feel equipped to do it or comfortable doing it, like, we'll just be, we'll just keep on waiting, you know, I think it's, yeah, it's just beginning to just, yeah, just starting, just starting and you tweak as you go and you grow as you go and learn more, but you got to start, you got to start.

Yeah. And no, that's so good. And I think, um, That's like the scariest thing for people. It's just starting. I could use another analogy like the business world, right? It's a, it's a scary thing to start a business. Um, it's intimidating. There's a complexity to it. There's all these steps that you probably know nothing about.

And a lot of people, they like wait, right? There's risk. Like, yeah, you can lose money. Like you can, you know, maybe put yourself in a really difficult situation economically. Like all these things are so much. That goes into it, but it's, um, you know, a lot of people then have this perspective of like, well, I'm just going to wait till I'm ready.

And the really interesting paradox is like, you're never actually going to be ready. The only way that you'll be quote [00:29:00] unquote ready is by actually like taking action and like learning what you need to know in order to take just like the next step. And then you, then you knock down that barrier and then you go to the next barrier and knock down that barrier.

And then you go to the next one. And that's basically entrepreneurship. It's just like a load of just like knocking things down. And then you're, you know, you look up and you're like, Oh wow, I didn't feel like I was ready. I just did it anyway. And as I did now, I see like, wow, I'm like this far up the mountain and this is great.

And I got a lot further to go. But man, if I was waiting to be, you know, Get maybe, you know, one analogy would be like to get all this like perfect training or have like all the perfect people in your life who could tell you exactly what to do in any given situation. It's like, good luck. You really need to just like, you know, again, not saying that advice and guidance and learning isn't a good thing, but if it's just substituted for action, you're just digging yourself into a hole.

Yeah, I mean, something we've all experienced, whether we're business owners or athletes or not, right, is [00:30:00] like being a baby. And like crawling and then walking, like if a baby just sits here and ponders crawling and, and, you know, mommy plays a lot of YouTube videos about how to crawl properly. Like it's never gonna, they're never going to get across the room until they start doing it, you know, even though, you know, I know you have a little girl, so like, you know, first baby has their butt stuck way up in the air and they're like trying to, they can't manage their body weight, you know, and so they, push themselves forward.

Maybe they bonk their head as they, you know, haven't quite figured out how to move their arms in, you know, synchronicity with their legs and that bilateral kind of motion or what, but it's by doing it that, that we've, that we learned to do it. So you have done it before, like everybody listening to this has done it before, you know.

As long as it's somebody who's already crawled. No, no. So good. And I want to circle back to an important point of like disability at some point. We'll come back to that in a little bit later, but two, two things I wanted to mention on the side of like being the coach or the parent, right. Um, [00:31:00] you actually have to let your kids struggle, which is hard.

Like, there's this real temptation when you're, you see someone you love who's struggling to let them kind of continue going down that path. And it's really important, like, when your kid's learning to crawl or walk, like, they're gonna take some falls. Like, the goal, you know, there, at least as a parent, which is a little bit of a different role, is like, you kind of want to make the environment somewhat safe so that they're not gonna, like, get really hurt.

You know, to the point where that would just be damaged to them. Right. But if they feel some pain, if they feel some hurt, as opposed to like the harm that we're talking about, um, then, then that's not a bad thing and that's something you just have to kind of go through. And so, um, yeah, I think that's, that's a hard lesson on the being on the side of someone who wants to help, which I know we have people like that listening now too.

Um, but the other thing I was going to say is. When it comes to like just starting. So yeah, you're right. Like there's people who will read books about any number of skills, like, you know, playing the violin. If we want to throw another analogy, it's like, great. Like you can read and watch videos and do all that thing, but all that stuff.

But if you just pick up the violin and start playing, you're going to learn way more. And then that actually, [00:32:00] that stuff will actually become useful than if you were to just like, you know, continue just learning, learning, learning. And the other thing I was going to say, I think a lot of people get discouraged to even act because they look around them and they see people who are like so much further ahead and they compare themselves.

And, and the comparison leads them not to motivation where like, Oh, wow. I admire what they've achieved. I want to achieve that too. I'm going to kind of try to learn from them and do it myself. Um, it, it can really lead to like, well, I'm never going to be like that. Or they were so much further ahead. How could I ever catch up?

And, uh, I think, you know, one quote I heard is like, don't compare your behind the scenes with everyone else's highlight reels, because you're seeing someone who's likely putting a lot of effort over a lot of time, or maybe they just had like a different environment growing up, whatever had, maybe they started a little higher in the mountain.

And so we can't just like have that comparison. The comparison should just be used for inspiration. And then it's like, no, now I'm just going to fight my battle. Uh, the only person I'm competing against is myself. And I'm just going to keep trying to get better and better and better slowly. And that's another thing too.

It's like the slow progress, like so [00:33:00] much of. I mean, maybe this is just American culture, but I think that applies around the world. A lot of times it's like, we just want to see results instantly. It's like, okay. I mean, if you go to the gym for a week, like your body's not going to transform. You go for a month.

Your body's not going to really transform. You might get a little stronger. You go for six months. Okay. You're going to transform a bit, but it's not going to be like completely different. You go for a year. Okay. Now, now we're starting to see more results. You go for years. Now we're seeing like an incredible transformation.

But we all want to do like 30 days or like a couple months and see these incredible results. That's just not how it works. Yeah. Talking about the comparison thing, like it makes me think of what you and I were talking about before we started recording and that was my concussions, right? So just that I had had nine concussions, um, all sports and car accidents and didn't realize how much I was affected by those.

But just recently having treated with a functional neurologist. And having, like, amazing results [00:34:00] from that, then, like, what people probably didn't know about me before was, like, I couldn't read. I didn't read going through college. Thank the Lord I'm an auditory learner. But, you know, somebody sees, like, you know, People relate to me sometimes as like, Oh, like you're on a certain sort of pedestal, you know, and you're like these people would say, have you read and that's all they'd have to say to my mind.

I'd be like, Nope, they wouldn't even have to say the name of the book. I'd be like, is it on an audible? You know, I've written a couple of books. I had to write the second one when the pandemic happened because I needed such uninterrupted time because it was. Words made sense coming out of my head, but I couldn't read over them to assess, okay, or pick back up when I left off, like, what was I saying and jump in?

They made no sense going in. So I had to have completely uninterrupted time to like, kind of dump it all out. But then even that going over edits and like, you know, is this a better way to say this or that? I don't know, because I don't know what I was saying to begin with. So, but you know, when, [00:35:00] Not that they're great works of erudition or anything or, or war and peace or something, but, but people see, you know, you've written a couple of books or you're a therapist, you have, you know, you're on podcasts or whatever.

Yeah, I was riding the struggle bus like big time. I couldn't read, you know, my goodness. So yeah, so it's, it's amazing. Like, like exactly like you were saying about like seeing the highlight reels and not what's going on on the backside, like it's really struggling through, but by the same token, the Lord allowed that struggle, right?

Until 54 years old. And he said, when you're talking about parents or coaches, like letting people struggle, that's how God did. I look back at it now, I'm like, wow, I feel like so charged up for like, oh my goodness, like glad that I didn't just kind of sit and be like, oh, well, I can't do it. And because, you know, it's kind of like, right when you get into the, um, when you're on deck as a baseball player.

What's that little ring that you, that you drop on the bat that like adds weight to it. Right. [00:36:00] So, okay. Yeah. Right. So it makes it heavier. Right. So then when you get up and you actually are swinging, like you can like, bring that bat around, like really forcefully because you were trying to do it like where it was like a lot more challenging and now it feels easier.

Right. So, so I kind of look at it like struggle struggle is a good thing, but I think we should normalize. Struggle like struggle should be bad because we're not struggling in some some way like we're not growing, you know No, 100 percent and I I was listening to a podcast recently by like, uh, I think it was a maybe a neurobiologist Anyway, he was talking about a part of our brain that literally doesn't get activated unless we're pushing beyond our limits And that, and that part of our brain, I can't remember the details, I'm sorry, but that part of our brain is connected to like longevity, like how long we live in our life and like our ability to be productive and just be healthy people.

And so like that, that's such a good thing to struggle, like you said, and in the right context. Yeah, I [00:37:00] think the only way to not struggle is complacency. Yeah. Right? Like, cause there's always something to grow in, some area to grow in, you know. And one, one tip here, one tactic is like, if you are stuck in that rut of complacency and apathy and just like, you know, not able to take action, or you feel like you're not able to take action, you always are able to take action.

But you feel like you're not able to take action. I would maybe look at the people you're surrounding yourself with. Like, are they people who are maybe similar in the sense that they're kind of complacent and not taking action too. And then if you kind of slowly try to surround yourself with people, try to learn from people who are maybe doing what you want to do or be Who you want to become, something amazing will happen.

Like you literally will start kind of rising to that level over time. It doesn't happen all at once. Um, but there's even like data on this. I don't have the study in front of me, but you end up making like similar money to like your closest, like five friends, which is like bizarre if you think about it, um, Um, and I think there's something similar, like when it comes to fitness too, like if you're spending time around [00:38:00] people who like drink beer all the time and just like, don't take care of their bodies, you're probably going to end up being like that, as opposed to, you know, someone who spends time with people who like work out regularly and, you know, they eat clean and all that stuff.

So I think that's one kind of practical, cause I want to take this into the practical now too. Um, but before we maybe get further into that, some people might be thinking like, well, what about disabilities? I think this is an important nuance that we add here and I know maybe it's not an easy answer, but there are people who have legitimate disabilities.

Um, like we're not just talking about like maybe learned helplessness or victim mentality, which I know that's kind of in the tone of the conversation, but we're looking more at like, you know, um, I, you know, someone who may be with Down syndrome would be maybe an extreme example. Um, but I think maybe in the middle is a little bit more of a gray area and people might even get a diagnosis about something And then they maybe let that become the label and then know there's like danger and all that too.

So yeah, talk us through all of that. Like, what if, what if someone truly does have some sort of a disability? How do they then take what we're saying and, and act on it? Do you mean [00:39:00] like emotional disability, physical disability? Like what in a particular case? Thing you have in mind? Yeah. I mean, we could go any direction with this, but I guess since we're talking about like the emotional side, let's focus a little bit more on that.

And I don't know if, you know, something like bipolar disease would be something to throw in there, or maybe that's too extreme of an example, but yeah, just something where people can point to something else and kind of maybe say, well, I have this, therefore I can never become that. Yeah. I just look at diagnoses as they're just, um, they're a word that's used to describe a collection of.

Ways a person is struggling, right? I just look at, I look at a diagnosis as like, it's, um, it's a word that describes like how a person's doing. It's not who they are, right? Because you can think about people, even people under like, a disability. arduous circumstances or struggling in really very limiting ways and yet making huge impacts on the people around them by who they are.

And I think that's kind of maybe to take what [00:40:00] we're, what we're talking about, like kind of brings it together is like the, Taking action can sound a lot like about doing, but whatever we've seen is like when we get the being right, the doing flows and, and we as mental health, we are the first people to offend against this because we'll talk about dysfunction and I think dysfunction is, I'm trying to keep it clean, , but it's not accurate.

It's like, it's, it's a faulty place to start, right? Like dysfunction, like we should talk about dis being. Or, or dis essence or something, because that's the problem. When, when we get the being right, the doing flows, right? Like the Lord comes and talks about the Beatitudes. He's, he doesn't have to focus on the Ten Commandments.

He knows if we're living the Beatitudes, like the Ten Commandments are taken care of, you know, or like in therapy. Um, usually the beginning of the week, if I'm working with a child and I ask the parent, like, you know, what's going on, they'll describe the behavior. But the end of the week when I'm like, you know, what's going [00:41:00] on, they'll say, he's just so peaceful.

He's just so loving. I don't have to say like, is he still throwing tantrums and breaking things? And, you know, I mean, it's kind of, they'd look at me like I had three heads. Like, did you not hear me say? He's so peaceful, you know, and I think that if we focus more on our being, then the doing gets taken care of, right?

It'll flow. That makes sense. And so in that sense, like we're not limited, like our being would be how we would approach whatever diagnosis or whatever disability or whatever we have. There's still a you that is immutable in goodness and in the ability to strive towards being more. you know, plugged into the Lord.

I mean, even if a person just focuses on really receiving God's love and lining up their thoughts of, you know, I like to tongue in cheek say, if you disagree with how God sees you, you're probably the one who's in error. Like, probably just going to go out on a limb there, right? So if we even just focus on [00:42:00] that as I'm going to try to align how I see myself, how I relate to myself in terms of my self talk and self care more with how the Lord sees me.

And like, I think that's something that we're all capable of regardless of physical limitations or diagnosis or whatever. Right? And like, the more we're. plugged into that. I mean, God's all powerful and God is love. And the more we're plugged into his love and really receiving it, it's transformative, you know?

So I figure let him do the heavy lifting. Yeah. No, there's, there's a bunch of lessons in that. Um, one is we can prescribe or get our identity from, or describe ourselves, I guess. Based on a condition or an experience alone, like you're saying, and that's really what diagnoses are, right? It's just saying, well, you have these symptoms and therefore this is the condition that goes along with those symptoms.

Like I mentioned, bipolar disease or something like that. But you're right. You can't, you wouldn't like walk around and say, I am a bipolar man. Like maybe some people would say that, but this is kind of a weird thing to say. It's [00:43:00] not accurate in my mind. Can I jump on that? Because people. People do that regularly.

They'll say my bipolar or my anxiety or whatever. And even though that might be a common way to talk, like, it makes me bristle because I feel like that's, it's not who you are. And it's really dangerous to like, to cling to that in such a way that's, um, you know, Like ownership, you know, like, why would you want to own that in some sort?

I'm not saying be in denial about it. Okay. I'm struggling with anxiety, but I think that's, that sounds far different. And I think that even just the, what it kind of affects within the person is far different than saying my anxiety. It's like, are you aware there's a you that's immutable that's still going to remain like when the anxiety is gone or is like how you see yourself so wrapped up with your anxiety that we kind of have to pry it out of your, out of your hands, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I follow you. I think it just begins to form how we see ourselves. And, um, so again, not saying being [00:44:00] in denial about something, but as far as owning it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that's a good exercise where, you know, think through kind of how you would. Maybe describe yourself to something like a friend or someone you're meeting, or even just how you maybe think about yourself.

But I found it easier if there's like some sort of external person, maybe you're talking to and think through like, okay, how would I describe myself and try to differentiate between the things that are true to your identity. For example, you know, I'm a man, I'm American. I come from an Italian bloodline.

I, you know, all these things I could say that are just true to my identity compared to those things that maybe are just things that happened to you. Like I'm a child of divorce. Which, I kind of have a love hate relationship with that term, because it just describes something I've been through. It doesn't slap an identity on me, though it sounds like it does.

So I think differentiating between the two, um, is maybe a good exercise for people to do, if you guys want to. And then the other thing I was going to say, too, I want to nuance, I think, the action and being thing a little bit more for people. Um, I love what you're saying, and I think it's so true. I guess the one thing that I see maybe a little bit differently, [00:45:00] or just again, it's more of a nuance, is that There's often action needed to clarify the being, right?

Because even in the example, and I know you'd agree with this, but even the example of like the young person you were helping who, you know, their parent came in and was describing the dysfunction compared to the being at the end, the action that was between that change, that transformation was actually working with you, right?

And they were doing the work themselves, like the young person. You were just their guide and mentor, right? Um, but I think that's kind of an important distinction. So if someone's gonna just maybe looking in the mirror and being like, okay, like this is who I am, this is who I am. I think you're only going to get so far.

Um, there are certain actions that may be aligned with the identity that you, that that's true to you. Like, you know, I don't want to throw, you know, Too many more analogies around, but you know, thinking of like, there's a difference between being someone who like goes to the gym to someone who's like into fitness.

Like it's kind of becomes after so many actions, it eventually kind of is almost like integrated into your character. It becomes part of your being, so to speak. So I think there is like this interplay between action. And being, and I [00:46:00] think, and yeah, I know you'd agree with that, but I think it's important for everyone listening to think of it like through practically like, okay, how do I exactly change my being like, it sounds like we need to learn the truth about who we are.

That's important. That's knowledge. But then, you know, how do we then kind of make sure that we see ourselves that way and not some other way. Yeah, I think so. A couple things come to mind. One would be like, I think you had mentioned like that solitude can be very challenging. Right? So I would think like, and this is something that's that was a big game changer for me.

And it was like internal stance. So even though it was invisible, and it was about being, but it was actually doing something, it just wasn't like external action. So it was not external action. It was like, If I'm in a place of whether it's really having like good news to celebrate or something difficult that I'm suffering, to like go to the Lord with it first and share it with him first before I looked for, you know, the consolation or the joy of sharing it with somebody else.

Wow. Not that it's bad to do that. I'm [00:47:00] not saying that it's bad to have. human support and relationships, but it's the primacy of that relationship. It begins to build a foundation of his reliable and sense of intimacy by, with him and a sense of being known by him and that kind of thing as really like primary and foundational.

So, so it is more about being, even though it is action, right? You know what I'm saying? And another thing I think is to, if instead of, if there's like the, you know, that tendency to compare myself to people on the outside and somehow find myself lacking, then it would be to like set up incremental goals.

Like the goal doesn't have to be, you know, just being this in this super like great emotional spot. And I look like how I perceive these other people like, no, make the, make the goals like incremental, you know what I mean? Make them where it's just, did I turn to the Lord first? Like, right? Did I, did I turn to him first, right?

It doesn't have to be anything else because I can [00:48:00] control that. I think too often we can look at the outcome or the result that we don't necessarily have control over as opposed to looking at our effort and setting goals having to do with effort. No, I love that. That makes a lot of sense. It's like, okay, if you go back to weightlifting, it'd be like, I want my bicep to be.

This many inches. Well, okay, good luck. Like you don't know what's in your genetics or not, right? So you can contribute with, you know, diet and exercise, but you don't have control over how big your bicep is going to be. Like you don't, you know, but you have control over, am I going to go to work out this many times?

Am I going to eat right? Am I going to, you know, This many times a week or whatever, right? Like, so, um, so set goals by the effort instead of assessing it by the outcome. Okay. No, that's really good. And I'm sure there's so much more we can say, but I want to just kind of circle back to the whole disability thing.

I think one important distinction there is like, even if you're maybe so quote unquote, like handicapped in some way, or you feel handicapped in some way, it's like still do your best still, you know, [00:49:00] still like, again, try to compete against yourself, become better tomorrow than you are today. And I think a great example of this is I know just back up a little bit.

I do. I've heard of people. I don't know them personally who do have like bipolar disease, a disorder, sorry. And they are living like very like good lives. They're like, almost like, I guess you can say they're thriving, like they're able to, I hate the word manage it, but in some ways they're able to like, live with that thing that is maybe holding them back in some way, and I know this is a bigger conversation because I, like, you would probably think that well, if they maybe healed the trauma behind it, maybe that symptom or that condition would like, Wrap up all together.

That's a separate conversation, . So maybe this is a bad, uh, condition to pick, but No, no, that's fine. Yeah. I think there still are people, I mean, yeah, it's the ideology of meaning. Some people can be diagnosed with bipolar and it might not be an accurate diagnosis, but that's not to say the diagnosis doesn't exist at all.

Right? Yeah. But, but you can still live like a really good and beautiful and meaningful life. That's my whole [00:50:00] point. It's like, you sure absolutely don't, don't make that an excuse for not. You know, trying or not living like a good life. You still can. There's people who do. Yeah. In the show Reacher, actually, I don't know if people have seen that, you know, there's maybe some questionable content in it, but it's on Amazon Prime.

The show Reacher, like Tom Cruise did some movies years back about this, like, army investigator who, you know, Becomes a civilian. And anyway, he just like goes on and like solves these like crimes and things, but there's a show now with this actor who's just this enormous guy. And anyway, he's a great actor, but I just learned recently, I was listening to an interview.

Uh, he has bipolar and he is just like, from what I see, at least in some areas of his life, he's like kicking back, like he's doing really well. So it's really cool to like, look at people like that and see, okay. Sure. Even with maybe a little bit of a hand behind your back or something, you can still do really well.

And on that note, I just wanted to just share with people, there's this Navy SEAL. His name is Ryan Jobe. And cause again, people, I think we all can fall into this victim mentality and just think, well, I can't, I can't win. I'm just stuck. I just, you know, might as well just give up. And this [00:51:00] Navy SEAL, Ryan Jobe, he was in Iraq, you know, and they were clearing buildings one day when he got hit in the face with a sniper's bullet.

Okay. Rough situation. I didn't kill him, but in time he learned, like, he was completely blind. He, he wouldn't be able to see again, and he really, at that moment, could have just given up. Like, he truly could have. Like, it would have been, people, we all probably would have given someone of a pass, right?

Because of what he had been through. So he's, he's blind. Um, but he refused. He said, nope. Like, I'm not gonna give up. I'm not gonna let this condition, I'm not gonna let this injury define me. Like, I still want to live a good, beautiful, full life. And so, as a blind man, he did incredible things. He summited Mount Rainier, which is like over 14, 000 feet.

People, a few people, like, die every year climbing this. To give context, as a blind man, he did it. You need specialized gear. There's ice, typically. Like, it's, it's not an easy thing. He climbed the thing. He trained for a triathlon. Um, he earned his bachelor's degree with a 4. 0 GPA. He [00:52:00] successfully hunted an elk, uh, as a, as a blind man.

Uh, he married his girlfriend and, and they had a child. And so like hearing Ryan's story, it's like, well, yeah, his story could have ended very differently. But, but he just said, Nope, I'm not going to be a victim. I'm not, I will. Let me just clarify that he was a victim of, you know, an enemy fighter shooting him, but he said, I will not remain a victim.

I think there's so much power in that. And your favorite part's the elk, right? Yeah. Or the Navy SEAL part. I just love that. So Margaret, I feel there's so much more we can say, I guess, um, in closing up the conversation, just want to touch a little bit on grief. So I know through all of this, we're not saying that.

You know, if you've been through trauma, you can just kind of skip over it and just kind of toughen up and deal with it and move on, you know, uh, does grieving have its place? Yeah. I think anytime there's been a loss, you know, whether it's, uh, you know, realizing coming to grips with kind of like what that person had told me, that's not fair.

I deserve to have been taken care of as a child. Okay. Well, there's a grief there, [00:53:00] but you grieve it. The way to get to the other side of the grief is. That you do something different going forward, you know, and so, yeah, absolutely. It definitely has its place, but well, here we are sitting here, like getting ready to be at Easter.

So there's new life, like on the other side, and that's how you get to the new life is through the grieving. It's part of the process, but then doing something different going forward, right? To me as a person, like. Overcoming trauma and the doing something different going forward was the kind of in in my mind, like the bad guys don't get to win, you know, like my peace and contentment isn't contingent on somebody else.

And I can do what I can do to be able to to write a different story. Like that's not how the story ends kind of thing. No, I love that. And my kind of lay person definition of grief is really like the process of accepting the new reality after the loss. And so it's like getting to that point is going to involve, you know, a lot of the typical things people talk about with grief, there's going to be, you know, sadness, [00:54:00] there's going to be denial.

There's going to be, you know, maybe the whole bargaining thing where you think, well, maybe I could have done this differently and prevented that. It's going to be anger. There's going to, but eventually that acceptance I think is where we want to lead and it's a messy process. Like it's not linear and it does take time.

I don't want to pretend that it doesn't. But. I think if we, you know, look at someone who, you know, had a serious loss in their life, and it's like years and years later, I don't know if we could put an exact timeline on, like, when you should be beyond grief or whatever, but if it's years and years later, and they're still just like anchored on that grief, I think there's a problem there.

Because I think as helpful as all of that is, it's helpful, and I'm talking to myself as much as anyone, it's like, you know, I think it's easy to get caught up in the past and, you know, grieve and then we need to ask the question, like, now what? And I think part of the problem, especially in this topic of divorce, I want to like be very gentle here because so often when your family falls apart, there's a lot of dysfunction.

Your parents get divorced, like there's a separation, like whatever the particular case is for everyone listening. It's often just not even treated as a trauma. It's not even treated as something that you need to grieve. It's not even treated as a loss. And [00:55:00] so a lot of people might be showing up. To this episode or this podcast, just thinking that, well, you know, they're just learning that it was a loss.

Maybe they kind of felt that on some level, but it wasn't conscious. And then now they're like, okay, now I need to grieve that loss. Totally get that. And I just want to give you guys grace there, of course. Um, but we're kind of talking about the situation where the, you know, I think I've fallen to in the past where it's like, I'm just going to grieve perpetually forever, and I'm never going to kind of accept the new reality and move on in life.

And I think that's like really, really dangerous. Again, I think in time, we need to find meaning in the midst of our reality right now, today, learn how to accept it and really live and even thrive in the midst of it. And again, I think it's really important to ask that question, like, now what? And so that's kind of one of the final questions I'd throw to you.

Like, how can someone best answer that question? Now what? How can they best answer the question, now what, of like meaning, like the new reality going forward. I think like, you know, I heard this homily once, this was decades ago. I'm old enough that it was really a number of decades ago, but I loved it because he [00:56:00] said, like, if you want to know, like, what's the Lord really like calling you to be in a particular way to glorify him, you know, for us as Catholics, like be a saint.

It's like, look at what area of your life you've really struggled. Right. I mean, like you were in a divorced family. Like I had a whole lot of trauma. You now minister to people from divorced families and I'm a trauma therapist, right? Um, you know, or he was talking about, you know, St. Peter, who was a sand pile.

It was just, he was crumbling all over the place, sticking his foot in his mouth. And then like the Lord makes him, you know, the rock, right? Or Mary Magdalene, who's so much, you know, impurity in her background. And then like, just renowned for like, just, you know, passionate, like single hearted love for the Lord, you know?

So looking at what area like you're particularly challenged by, and I think that can begin to give you some inkling of the now what, I liked your definition, right? Accepting the new reality going forward, but it's not just about accepting, it's living into that new reality. And I think that can point us into the next chapter.

[00:57:00] Direction of what's the new reality. I love that. And I think another way to ask that question now, what is like, what am I going to do with this? Like this happened, like, what am I going to do with this? Like, yes, take time to grieve, you know, all of that's very important, but it's like, what am I going to do with it?

I'm going to let it define me. Am I going to let it. limit me in life, hold me back like we've been talking about, or am I going to then take that and use that as a catalyst for growth? Because really pain, I think, and suffering and trauma in life can either, you know, just kind of destroy us or we can use it as a catalyst for growth.

And I going back to, I mentioned Dave Ramsey before, I remember him saying like the difference between him and a lot of other people is like he, and really anyone who's like a high performer who's been able to, you know, gain any sort of like success in life is like, You're just standing on top of like the pain and the struggles in your life instead of just being buried under them.

Like, like that can be like your ladder to climb up. And so I think there's a lot of hope in that. And like you said, just maybe looking at people in your life or where you might feel called to then pour into others in a healthy way, um, is a really [00:58:00] beautiful thing as well. It's a good outlet. And I know for me, that was like actually a really healing thing.

To look beyond my own pain and try to find people in my life who maybe were suffering even more than me and see what I could do again to love them in a healthy, like balanced way. And so, uh, any final thoughts on that before we close on? Yeah, just for me, it's, you know, kind of like what you're saying, but like about becoming that person, your, your little kid wish they had back then.

Yeah. And then, you know, taking that and like trying to help people to help themselves. I think that's like so beautiful. Like we were talking about before, where it's like, we need to really grow that ability to kind of lead that little kid inside of us. That, that little, that hurt part of us that maybe wants to freak out, that wants to stay stuck, that wants to grieve forever, that wants to play the victim constantly.

And it's really beautiful to know that like, okay, no, we can be that person who leads us out of that misery, that stuckness into a much better place. Yeah, and then chances are there's other people struggling the same way they're that little emotional part of them struggling in the same way and when you come to [00:59:00] that understanding or way of being able to be that for for that part of you, then you probably have a gift to offer a lot of people.

Who are in that same place, you know? Yeah. And there's, uh, countless stories of people who've, who've done that, who've used that pain and transformed, like you said, transformed other people's lives or helped them transform their lives. So, so good. Um, in closing, I just want to say thank you so much and just really always enjoy talking to you and.

Yes. Yeah. Our partnership has been great. So I appreciate you. And thanks for being here. Um, two final questions, I guess. One, like, tell us about what you offer and how people can find you online. That's one thing. And then the second thing, I just want to throw the final word to you and just any final encouragement, any final advice to everyone listening.

Who's maybe, yeah, just been stuck in this problem of helplessness or victim mentality. Like what's the final encouragement advice. So tell us about your work and then tell us about that final word. Sure. So I'm a trauma therapist and I do intensive outpatient trauma therapy, which typically looks like one week all day, every day for Monday through Friday.

And I [01:00:00] do human and spiritual integration workshops in person for groups or online. Uh, I have a couple of books, more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma. That's specifically about trauma, obviously. And that's available on Amazon as is fearless abundant life through infinite love, which talks a lot more about.

What my final word would be, which is really just directing those needs for connection, for being chosen, being known, being valued, being protected and provided for to the Lord first, and then aligning our thoughts with His, taking on His mind for ourselves, and by way of that, being able to become conduits of grace to others.

So that's available on Amazon as well. But I think that for me, that's the final word. It's really about plugging into the Lord first. I mean, we can talk about his love like it's a nice thing and it's, you know, it's yeah, just kind of a nice thing. It's optional, but it's like, it's, it's really everything.

It's the most powerful force there ever was. And it's [01:01:00] transformative. And I know that personally, and would never have thought that my life could look the way it does, given all the things that I had, you know, had been through. So, um, but it was boiled all down. It was all God's love. So, can't be overstated.

 I wanted to touch on one additional barrier problem that we might face, and that is, if this problem I'm facing has attracted people into my life who want to help me, what happens to those people once this problem is solved, once it goes away, will they just disappear? It is kind of a scary thought and maybe subconsciously can lead us to kind of holding on to becoming attached to whatever problems that we're facing in our life, because it kind of got us the result of getting attention and getting people, you know, to help us.

I can't tell you exactly what would happen if you were to solve that problem, uh, but I can say that if you were to intentionally or subconsciously kind of hold onto that and never outgrow that problem because it brought people into your life and in order to keep them in your life, I can say this, eventually it will [01:02:00] likely drive them away.

And I don't say that to scare you, I don't say that to make you think that everyone's going to abandon you, that's not the case. But, if we're holding on to it again subconsciously, or maybe even intentionally, to keep those people around, something's going to change. Eventually they're going to get wind of this, eventually they're going to kind of understand or have a feeling that, okay, maybe this isn't The healthiest situation because this person might be relying on me in an unhealthy way.

And so just wanted to talk through that. And I say that with a lot of grace, cause again, I've been in these situations before, but if you were to heal and outgrow that problem, then what I would say is you then would have the opportunity to build a much healthier relationship, much healthier friendship.

You'll be able to really just be a better friend to them. And that should. That should make sure that, um, you'll have a better, longer relationship with that person than if you were to just hold on to this problem that's brought them into your life. And whether or not you struggle with that, I wanted to issue a challenge to everyone listening.

And the challenge is this. If you struggle with helplessness or neediness or just never seeing much transformation in your life, Don't just talk about your problems. [01:03:00] Don't just think about your problems. Don't just listen to podcasts and read books. Those are good things, by the way. I'm not putting them down, but don't just do those things.

Take the advice, take the lessons, and put them into action. That's how you see the results. Execution, right? Even if it isn't perfect execution, even if you kind of stumble through it, even if you're not very competent at whatever it is that you're doing, that's okay. It's better to act. Even if you feel like you don't have time, whatever barrier you're facing, just Bulldoze through that barrier and execute, execute, execute, do it, do it, do it.

And I promise in time, you'll see some results. And if you want more from Margaret, I'd recommend checking out her website. That's linked in the description. We also filmed a course with her. It's called broken to whole. tactics to heal from your parents divorce or broken marriage. And by signing up, uh, you're going to learn from Margaret and again, she's an 18 year trauma therapist.

You're going to learn why the trauma of your parents divorce or family dysfunction is so damaging. You're going to learn simple tools and tactics and navigate your emotions and heal [01:04:00] tips to build healthy relationships. And the whole course is actually, Two hours long, it's not super long and it contains about 30 videos.

Most of them are two to five minutes long, so it's very digestible. You can work through it at your own pace. And by going through the course, you're going to really be armed to identify the root of your struggles, which so often is trauma, untreated trauma. You're going to feel validated and less alone in your struggles.

You're going to understand and better navigate your emotions. You'll build healthier relationships and a better life. And you're going to most importantly, avoid passing your brokenness onto the people that you love. The most. And so if you want to, um, get the course right now, it's free. That might change in the future, but right now it's for just click on the link in the show notes.

Again, you can sign up for free at this recording. It is free that again, that might change in the future. Um, and then you could begin watching the videos at your own pace. Again, just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them.

I promise you they will be forever grateful to you for sharing it. with them. I really wish someone would have done that with [01:05:00] me years ago. In closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#120: Freedom You Never Tasted But Always Wanted | Jake Khym, MA

Pending! Stay tuned.

Two years into marriage, Jake found himself enslaved to a sexual addiction. He longed for freedom but felt very stuck. As a result, he lived a double life, hiding his unwanted behavior from his wife.  

But one random day, it all came to light. At that moment, he thought his marriage was over. In this episode, he shares what happened next, plus:

• What kept his marriage from falling apart?

• How a wound of abandonment from his family drove his addiction

• 6 tips to break free from sexual compulsion or addiction

Go to Jake’s Website & Resources

Listen to our series, Healing Sexual Brokenness

Go to Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Two years into marriage, Jake found himself enslaved to a sexual addiction. He wanted to break free, but he felt so stuck. And as a result, he just continued to live a double life, hiding his unwanted behavior from his wife. But that all changed one day when it kind of randomly came to life. And at that moment, he thought his marriage was over.

And so in this episode, he shares about what happened next and much more. We talk about how shame. truly crushed him, but it didn't destroy him. He answers the question, like, what kept your marriage from falling apart? We also discuss how pride is often at the root of lust or sexual compulsions. He touched on how a wound of abandonment from his family was at the root of a lot of his behavior, and he shares six tips to break free from sexual compulsion.

Uh, or addiction. So if you or someone, you know, struggles with a sexual compulsion or addiction, especially within marriage, this episode is for you. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 100. 20. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback. One listener said this, finally, a podcast that helps me understand why my parents divorce when I was five affected me so much.

Joey's guests are articulate and every episode helps me heal. I normally avoid religious content, but this show is so focused on felt experience that it doesn't come across religious at all. Major props for that. Thank you. And I just want to say, you're so welcome. Like we do it for you. Like I know it might sound kind of cheesy, but we do it for you.

We're so happy that the show has been helpful and even healing. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot. In a gym, Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But what makes Dakota different than the insane amount of fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I would say three things. One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped duties, but he's also a good virtuous man. He's not just caught up in his looks. Another thing I'd say is he, he studied to become a priest for a little while.

And from that experience in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustine Institute, he developed this belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting all the rest, like your body. We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free to love.

And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help you get a six pack or get bigger arms or whatever. He really wants to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated. And so if you would desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and even your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this. Dakota Lane changed my life, and the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have achieved, just go to DakotaLaneFitness. com or click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Jake Kim. Jake is a Catholic leader with over 20 years of experience in various ministry settings.

He has a master's degree in counseling psychology and a bachelor of arts in theology with a concentration in catechetics. Jake has worked in adult faith formation, a seminary and in priestly formation, a diocesan evangelization, catechesis, retreat ministry, and had a private counseling practice for over 15 years.

Currently Jake offers Human and pastoral formation for Catholic leaders is a consultant to various churches and ministries across North America. He offers an annual men's retreat in British Columbia, Canada, and accompanies male leaders on their journey of faith. And he co hosts two podcasts, uh, restore the glory is one of them.

And the other one is way of the heart. Plus in this episode, he shares about a new podcast that he and his wife are going to be launching. And with two children at university, Jake currently lives in Abbotsford. Uh, BC, British Columbia up in Canada with his wife, Heather, and one of their three. Now, in this episode, we do talk about God and faith.

If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out or skip the God parts, you're still going to benefit so much from this episode.

A little bit of a trigger warning before we jump in. This obviously is a mature topic talking about sexual compulsions and addictions. And so we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around children. But with that, here's my conversation with Jake. Jake, so good to have you on the show.

I'm honored that you joined us. Thanks so much for having me, Joey. It's great to be with you. I want to get into your story. And if, if you would, I'd love to start with a little bit of background and then take us to that day when you and your wife, Heather, Heather, really difficult conversation about your struggle.

Well, the, the back story is that I, I walked into marriage under a lot of deception. I had convinced Heather that previous issues in my life weren't there anymore and she was convinced and settled and she had entered into marriage, you know, with a lot of bliss and isn't this great and, you know, and. All that you would hope and expect, but what you didn't realize is that I was hiding a lot.

Um, there was a complete double life that was going on for me and I think to make it even worse, uh, at least it feels worse to me is that I, when all of this was happening, I was working at a church and so I was, you know. leading people into the Catholic faith through RCIA. So the duplicity stung particularly because my double life was extra heightened because I was proclaiming something about not living a double life to people.

So I'm working at a parish and, and all this is going on behind the scenes. And it's not like I'm loving it or embracing it all and going, Oh, who cares? I never was. Content with this being the reality, but felt utterly defeated and honestly didn't have much hope. Confession was my close friend and that's kind of the best that I was doing.

So the day where everything, where everything hit the fan, I was in, uh, we were getting ready or we were up in our bedroom and we were just chatting about various things in life. And. It's, it's really ironic because in hindsight, I realized what happened is that I was actually sharing a story, which was very boastful.

It was a story almost patting myself on the back about how wonderful of a helper I was to people. And so I was sharing with Heather about this story, uh, about this guy who came to me for counsel about going to confession for, Sins of impurity and so I was sharing with Heather. Oh, I know and I counseled him so well And I said, oh you got to go see I said to him you got to go see father So and so he's really good at these things but father so and so, you know, he's not so good and boy look at this great counsel I gave and was very full of myself and Heather for some reason it hit her and She said Jake, how would you know which priest would be better at that?

You And that question felt like everything went into slow motion, and I had possibly, you know, the most important decision of my life right in that moment. Because there were other times where Heather had quote unquote caught me or confronted me, and I'd lied my way out of it. But for some reason, this particular day, she asked that question, and I made the decision to cross a threshold that was terrifying to me, and to start being honest with her.

And so, I think my pause, and probably the look on my face, began to communicate to her, Oh, no, we have a lot more that's going on here. And so, I think if I'm, if I recall correctly, it was probably over the course of Two days that I came completely clean about everything that was going on in our marriage and Honestly, it was it was horrible just to be blunt There was there was not a lot of consolation in it the consolation did come for me quicker than for heather for obvious reasons because the burden of a secret and an addiction is Excruciating.

And so when you no longer live under the burden, what often happens is the addict starts to feel a bit of relief. And that can be massively confusing and hurtful to the person you've hurt your spouse or somebody else, because they're watching you almost feel relief and they've just been thrown into, you know, a hornet's nest of pain.

And so that came a bit later, but the first few days were, they were terrible. Because I'm, I'm honestly thinking my marriage is over. That's genuinely what I thought. We had my oldest daughter at the time and I, it was a very real serious consider so much so that I went to work probably, you know, I think I took the first day or two off and said I was sick or whatever, and I went back to work and I.

I had a meeting with my boss, who I was very close with, and I said, I need to talk to you and I need your help. And I said, I need to learn about annulments because I think my marriage is over. And he just obviously was floored and was like, what are you talking about? So it launched into this whole conversation with him.

So that's how the day, the first kind of day went. Um, there's all kinds of nuances I could say, but that's the rough sketch. Wow. No, thank you for sharing so vulnerably and knowing you a bit, how long you've come from that day. I just want to say a little bit of a pause in the conversation. Like I admire you so much.

It's incredible. The transformation in your life. And we're going to get to that. I want to give everyone some hope. Cause I know we're in like a heavy spot right now, but man, obviously I know you'd say it's a lot of God's grace, but you just, you have to be a fighter to be able to come, come back from something like that, which I'm excited to get into one place.

I want to go to is leading up to that. You alluded to the fact that. You know, all of this was unwanted. This is unwanted sexual behavior. What did it feel like in the midst of it all? I think so often it might be easy to like skip over that, how grueling and difficult it is. But I think to people who are in the midst of that right now, it's actually really helpful to talk about that.

So what did it feel like in the midst of it? And then, you After you opened up to Heather, how did you not let the shame crush you? I think any person that has any level of addiction and some addictions are worse than others, you know, like an addiction to cookies doesn't seem to bother as many people as an addiction to pornography.

Right? So it's like, okay, so But when you kind of increase the magnitude of what you're addicted to, alcohol, any kind of pleasure, and then when you bring in sex and all of those kinds of things, I think the reason that the sexual one has greater implication, greater pain, greater sting to yourself and other people is because it taps it into deep, deep dynamics in the human person, which is we're inherently relational.

And especially when you're in a marriage and an addiction of that kind in a marriage is like a direct. Like heresy of sorts. It's like a direct countersign to the very thing you're supposedly living day to day. Alcohol maybe is a little bit less than that because it doesn't have necessarily as blatant a direct correlation, but it does.

I mean, like a person coming home drunk impacts their spouse. I'm not trying to diminish that at all. But, you know, food is a bit less than a bit kind of like for me, the sting of it gets less. And I'm sure other people who struggle in those other areas would argue the opposite. And I'm welcome them arguing that I think that's fair for them.

But when you're in the midst of it and you look at something and you feel the clutches of something around you that you honestly, sincerely believe there's no way out of, It is a horrible experience. I think it's the closest thing I've ever come to knowing what it's like to be in jail. Like, here's the reality.

I can't do anything to get out of here. I am imprisoned by this. Every effort I try, it's like trying to shake the bars of a prison cell open. Doesn't work. And you know, you, you go for a week or whatever, and you even have the slightest ounce of hope that maybe, maybe this one's different. I remember feeling like, Oh my gosh, it's been two weeks since I haven't fallen and feeling this sense of victory only to like the next day have fallen worse than maybe a six months ago.

And that repetitive cycle of defeat and shame and imprisonment is. It, it really can mess with you. And I think what eventually people probably do is they just associate because of that pain, it gets so bad, they just start to check out and they get really numb. And that's usually when the addiction gets worse is because there's this thing in psychology called a tolerance effect where what one beer would do now takes five, what.

One website does, now it takes a worse one, a more intense one. And so you're always looking for the next high and you get used to the current high. And so it increases your tolerance increases. And so the, usually the ugliness of what you do can get worse. And so that's the whole cycle is. It's brutal and it can create a lot of despair.

I know a lot of men and women who I've seen and encountered and they feel utterly defeated. They're like a shell of a person. It's like looking at someone in a concentration camp and they're like, I'm going to die in here. And I have no hope of getting out. It's terrible. Like, it's, ugh, anybody who knows it.

And that's one of the things where I have a lot of compassion on people who struggle in this area, because I know what it's like. I know the pain of these areas, and I don't wish it on anybody. Your second question about the shame, you know, it's funny, I'm not sure I didn't let it crush me, if I'm honest.

I think the shame probably did crush me. The shame even in the addiction was crushing me. The shame of telling Heather, like my stomach, I probably grew 15 ulcers in a four days and I don't, and I never knew about it. I mean the, it was, it was terrible. Like it was brutal. And I say that cause I'm not trying to candy coat this.

Like I, there's a no BS philosophy that I kind of abide by and I don't want anybody to have, you know, Oh, it's rainbows and, and flowers when you go through this thing, it's awful. Like it's, It's brutal, but it is incredibly worth it. So I think the shame actually did crush me. I, I think why it didn't destroy me is maybe how I would rephrase the question.

And honestly, I would say grace. And I would say there are things in my life that God did to me very, very early on. He set up in me, he established in me that were critical to my recovery. And I think that's for everybody. I trust that that's the case for everybody. Everybody has things that God. Has put in their soul and in their personality and in their temperament, et cetera, that is their pathway out.

They probably just don't realize it. And so here's an example of one of those for me is I'm a very competitive person. I've been competitive for since I was little, I had two older brothers and I hated to lose. And so what, what ended up happening is that very early dynamic that just felt like me and my personality.

With some of the right love and mentorship from other people, they tapped into that dynamic in me and it was like a lifeline of don't lose and it, it, it like brought fire, even a spark back into a pouring rain environment internally. And that really mattered. There was one man in particular. He's quite well known.

Christopher West was a dear friend of mine in this journey. And it was Christopher West at the time was just Christopher West. Nobody really knew who he was. He wasn't this big popular guy. He lit fires underneath me all the time. And, and he, I don't know if he could see it or it was just the Holy Spirit, but he could motivate me like, like an athlete in a locker room.

You know, you watch those YouTube things and, and people are like, I would run through a wall now because like he had that capacity and he lit things up in me that massively helped me. And created lifelines for me. I think another one that was a lifeline for me, like I first learned that all of this was wrong when I was 18, um, I went to college and I remember going into the church because honestly I was lonely and I went to university and the girl I was after didn't work out.

And now I'm like, oh crap, I'm all alone. What do I do? And it was this tug of, well, where am I going to go? Where are people going to be nice to me? I'm insecure. I'm alone. And I felt like, go to the church, they kind of have to be nice to me. So I was like, okay, so I, I go to the church and I meet some nice people and they did, they welcomed me.

Then I start going to the talks and stuff like that. And the priest was brilliant. He just started saying the truth. And one of the things he said is masturbation, pornography, sexual addiction is real and it is a mortal sin. And here's what a mortal sin is. And that scared me because he said, hell is real and you don't want to go there.

And if you don't want to go there, you need to be in the state of grace. And so I had a very quick, Oh, Oh no, Oh, this is bad. And, and for some reason, the concept of eternity haunted me like forever, like forever, forever, like jail forever. And it terrified me. And so that in turn motivated me. And he said, there's a very simple way to be in the state of grace, go to confession.

And I was like, Okay. And so at some level, I was like, I don't care. Uh, I kind of had this internal disposition of if you don't let me go to confession, father, somehow that's on you. Cause I tried and God have mercy for you, buddy. So I worked those priests as hard as you can work them, man. Like I went to confession.

A lot. A lot. Numerous times I went twice in one day. They had the Saturday morning one, and the Saturday afternoon one, and I'd hit both of them. Because I would fall that frequently. So, that was another massive motivation for me, was somebody just flat out saying, Hell is real, you don't want to go there, and there's a way out.

You need to be in the state of grace and there's a sacrament you can get, even if you're an addict, you can come to and all you need is a slightest bit of, I don't want this anymore. And the Lord takes that. He cleans it all. And I drank, I gorged on confession. That was huge for me. It's beautiful. Wow.

There's so many lessons and so many great points I'd love to comment on. One of the lessons I'm learning from you is just how essential it is to have people in your life who can love you through this, who see you as you are, not some mask, not some fake version of you, but just like Christopher West was for you.

He's been on this podcast, so people are somewhat aware of him. And, uh, man, that was just like a lifeline, like you said, something that kept you moving. And also, like, you know, I know it was such a big struggle for your wife, Heather. I'm curious, just let's stop here for a second. Like, what made you guys keep going?

Because there's a lot of couples who would just go through something like this and say, Oh, I'm done. This is, this is not what I signed up for sort of thing. What, what kept you going? Ah, this is where my gratitude for my wife is. I, I honestly struggle to express it because I, this isn't a normal expression of love.

Like my wife, Heather is, she's amazing. Like she is amazing. I don't know why. It doesn't make sense for her to stay with me. Like, if you're honest, she shouldn't have. On every natural, normal reason, I've lied through my teeth. I've destroyed her. I've been unfaithful to her. Like, what? Why? Why should you? And, Her response here has been something that I've watched her live for the next, we're coming up on 24 years married, and this happened in year 2.

So year 2, so for 22 years, I've watched her live this wholeheartedly, and that basic point is, Either the gospel is what we say it is, or it isn't. Either Jesus Christ is who he says he is, and it's real, or what in the world are we all doing? And so everything that flows from that, the church's teaching, um, vows in a marriage, fidelity, all of that stuff, either it's real or it's not.

And what she lived was, I believe it's real. And I'm not going to believe another narrative about reality other than the one that Jesus Christ presents. And honestly, I can say, Jo, I do not think I would be here if it wasn't for her. There's no question. She was the catalyst to all of this for me. I actually have thought about it numerous times.

I'm scared. It's a scary thought for me to think about where I would be if it wasn't for her, I'd probably be divorced five times. I'd probably, I mean, I don't even know. It's, it's a scary thought. I definitely wouldn't be doing any of this kind of stuff. Heather was a, I mean, she was, a massive, massive gift and grace in my life.

Like just take this on day two. I think it was day two or day three after I've confessed everything. I'm sleeping in a different room and she's not yelling at me. She's not like mad. She's deeply hurt and she's not hiding it. And day two, day three, she says to me, I want you to know that I forgive you. And, and here's the crazy part.

I don't even remember that because I was so consumed with my inner world and my pain. That's part of the dynamic is you're obsessed with yourself. That's part of the issue. I was so consumed with that. I don't even remember her saying it and she, we've had to retell the story and I, and I vaguely have this memory of it because I remember internally, I'm like, That's impossible, right?

Like you look back on it and go, that's not possible. People don't do that. This isn't real, but it is, but it's the gospel, right? It feels impossible. I was the guy caught in adultery and Heather was the one who's saying, I forgive you, but don't sin anymore. And she offered both of those to me. She said to me, she doesn't remember saying this to me, but I have this vivid memory of her saying it.

Maybe it was the Holy spirit put these words in my heart, but I felt like it came directly from her and they were. I expect you to be a man, and nothing less. That's my expectation of you. I forgive you, but it's time for you to be a man. And, what I say when I share this story with people, I'm a movie guy, and like I said, I'm inspired, I like, Competition that that's the scene for me when the Rocky music turned on in the background and it lit a fire under me because I felt like I had a second chance at life and somebody said to me, not you're the biggest loser I've ever seen.

What the hell's wrong with you? I mean, all the things she could have said, she could have rubbed my face so deep and all of that. And what she said to me is the thing I wanted to be the whole time to begin with. I, that's what I deeply desired was to be a real authentic, strong and good man. And she basically said, put up or shut up time to get in the arena.

And that, that like exploded the fire within me. And now it wasn't easy. Uh, you know, every time you see the montage in a movie where it's like they go through eight months or a year or five years of something in 30 seconds, we all go, yeah. But the friggin five years is hard, and the music stops, and it sucks, and you don't want to do it anymore, and all of that.

But those moments were utter gifts to me, and all of them were from Heather, because she trusted and believed the gospel. So beautiful. And thanks again for sharing so vulnerably. I want to backtrack a little bit because you said something that was really profound about shame and about how, you know, I think there is the scale of intensity when it comes to various addictions or, you know, unwanted behavior.

Like, I agree with you on that. And I think part of the reason that makes the sexual struggles so shameful is that As a culture, I think we look down on them, at least, you know, within like the Christian culture. And so I think, yeah, I can drive you so deep within yourself that you think, man, if I ever were to show anyone this, they would quickly and easily disown me.

And they would, you know, say all the things that, you know, Run in the back of your head, you know that I'm a failure I'm never gonna get over this and so on and I've heard people say to that What when you're in the midst of that not just believing that what you're doing is wrong, but you are wrong You are bad kind of being the definition of shame this dual identity emerges where you to the outside world and to, you know, like you said, at work and church, like you were this one person and then interiorly you were just this broken, struggling person.

And then the gap between those two gets so big, it can feel like they can't be reconciled. Like, and that's such a hopeless, hopeless place to be. Like you, you articulate it so well. I'm curious if Yeah, backtracking a little bit when it came to, what, what held you back? Was it the shame that held you back from telling Heather in the first place?

Because I imagine there were times when you were going through this and you were like, man, I just, I want to open up. I need to open up. Like, what, what was it that held you back and held you, you? To that line of lying and deceiving, it took me getting into my own story and almost understanding myself before I could really appreciate the why.

And I'd say one of the biggest reasons of why I didn't share with Heather is because I was terrified of experiences that happened earlier in my life happening again. So as a very young boy, Abandoned very early by my mom, not her fault. She had mental illness and she had extreme postpartum depression.

She had to go into inpatient mental health care. Um, so she was gone for months, uh, when I was a brand new baby. And that was an incredibly deep wound of abandonment. And then from that, the enemy just thought, Hey, let's just beat the tar out of this guy with this wound of abandonment. So every girlfriend I had, they always broke up with me.

I never broke up with them. So there's always this repeating narrative of the thing you long for the most, feminine care will always leave you. And it, it was to the depth of my being. So the thought of sharing with somebody Something that in my mind guaranteed my biggest fear to happen. I'm like, I can't do that.

So I'm in this terrible, I call it a double bind. If I go left, I'm dead. But if I go right, I'm dead. I don't know what to do. So if I share with Heather, all this, she will abandon me. But if I don't share all of this with Heather, I'm living a complete and utter lie that once she finds out she'll abandon me.

So I'm just stuck. In both places, terribly, that was probably the biggest reason, but I didn't know that that was the biggest reason until after the fact. I think another reason, if I'm just honest, the, the wounds that those dynamics, the impact of those wounds in me made me very, very selfish and self reliant.

I basically, I call it a masturbatory mentality. And this is the language I've learned. People say, Oh, I've struggled with masturbation. I think the bigger issue is that we have a masturbatory mentality, outlook, way of life. Everything becomes masturbatory. It's all about me, what I can get and my pleasure.

And so I think that dynamic goes on. It's rampant. And it was rampant in my life. Selflessness Was a very small category for me It was all about me because I believed I had to make it about me For me to be okay because no one else would take care of me or be there Those are all the lies and vows and beliefs and so I mean it sounds it's a bit crude But I was quote unquote Masturbating all the time because everything was about my pleasure and everybody else's job was to make sure I was okay So that was another reason So, I would look at Heather and justify at times my behavior because she wasn't giving me what I wanted and I was convinced this is what I need and if everybody would just give me that.

You know, the lie becomes, if I could just have pornography in real life, I'd be fine. And I believed that lie deeply. And so in my relationship with Heather, you bring that into the marriage. That's one of the issues with pornography. And then you end up deeply wounding your spouse because you're expressing disappointment in them because they're not living the lie with you.

Just as a footnote, I think that's a very dangerous thing that happens for a lot of couples is their spouses that believe that's the remedy. Give them what they want. And then they begin to compromise their own dignity, and that just creates all kinds of more interesting and troublesome dynamics. So, selfishness is kind of what I'm saying here.

Massive selfishness and terrible fear of abandonment. And then I would say the last one was, I honestly didn't have the kind of relationship with God to where I sincerely trusted he would actually satisfy me. And so I'm living this life with God and going, yeah, God's good. And, you know, I say all the right stuff.

I'm passing all the multiple choice tests, but if I'm honest, Will God actually satisfy me to this depth? No, I don't think he goes there. I mean, you know, you look at all the stuff that we're formed in and all the false formation and prudishness that enters into our, our world and we call it holiness. We call it prudence, but it's actually manichaeism, which means body, bad spirit, good.

You know, we, we adopt some of these heresies without even realizing it. And then we shut out. The very grace of God in our lives. And so I believed God can't satisfy me. So you throw that combo together. That was gnarly. I was like, man, I'm not going there. No, it's so profound. And I love how you tied lust and pride together.

I don't think a lot of people make that connection, but I think it's so potent. I heard that St. Augustine once wrote that lust is the sin of the proud. And, and I think like you said so well, it's so true because at the core of lust of using another person for own pleasure. It's, you know, obviously an extreme amount of selfishness, which is pride.

And so I think one of the antidotes, which I know we're going to get to in a second here, is an incredible amount of humility of, and obviously valuing like the worth, the dignity, the value, you know, of another person, seeing their pain, seeing, you know, their desire to be loved and just understanding how Our behavior of salvageness just destroys them in so many ways.

And so I love how you guys were able to kind of go from that place into just a much healthier, more beautiful place. And so many things you had, I would love to comment on, but I know we don't have forever today. I could talk to you forever, but I'm curious if there was, um, if there was anything else that you would say that that sexual compulsion addiction Uh, was, was filling, like, if there are any other needs, cause you, you outlined it so well how it went back to the abandonment one, but I'm just curious if there's anything else you would say like this need or this thing was filling this need.

Yeah, I, I would say I'm a very, I'm like, you know, like when you talk about the five love languages and those kinds of things, physical touch is very high for me. So I'm a sensual person and I'm, Stereotypically male where I'm highly visual, I'm very sensual. And so what the pornography was doing was just almost like meeting me to a depth that I felt.

And so in some ways it was this perfect assault on me because it's deeply visual, highly erotic. All of these things that I kind of at baseline feel, and I think I'm, I'm, I don't think everybody's that way, or if they are, I don't know that. And so pornography had like this perfect concoction for me and passion, like I'm a passionate guy.

I'm a pretty intense guy when I play a sport like I, I go all in, I'm an all in kind of person. And so what you see. One of the twists of pornography is that it meets you in that space. And the lie that it suggests is you won't find this elsewhere. In other words, when you hear and look at the passion of Jesus Christ, you don't equate that to a satisfaction of Eros.

Most people don't link those. They go, that's the opposite of Eros. And I think one of the dilemmas that we have is that we, we assume making a gift of ourself, which is. The passion of Christ, the cross doesn't satisfy. This to me is one of the crux issues with Christianity and the gospel and Jesus's message is we, we don't believe in when we say, when you lose your life, you'll find it.

I think that's a, that's a line in the sand that few people actually cross over to believe. And so we think we actually have to take care of ourselves. And so they go, where am I going to go? I want it to be really good, highly intent, blah, blah, blah. And it's, this is the brutal thing of pornography. It's affordable.

They call it the three A's. It's affordable, meaning I don't have to pay much to get it. It's anonymous. No one's going to watch me. And it's easily accessible. Affordable, anonymous, and accessible. That is a real tough one. And this is one of the issues with the advent of modern technology is, you know, back in the 70s or 80s, early 90s, to partake of pornography, More guts than it does now.

And so you had to, you had to have a bigger desire. So it had a threshold that a lot of people just wouldn't push through. And in some ways it prevented a lot of issues, affordable, accessible, anonymous, man, that is rampant right now. So, um, anyway, I feel like I'm digressing. No, no, it's so good. And so relevant to what we're talking about.

Cause you're right. It's so, it comes at you so aggressively. And I think not only men, but also women now are struggling in so many different ways when it comes to just lacking self mastery in the realm of sexuality. But also, I think, like you said so well earlier on, there's something about our sexuality that just hits on so many components of the human person.

And so, We're all, you know, I think so many people have been through trauma. They carry broken with brokenness with them through life, especially our audience who's coming from, you know, really broken dysfunctional families that the kind of sexual release is just so attractive because it feels in the moment that it kind of satisfies those needs to satisfy that brokenness for a moment.

At least you feel some level of relief and maybe even wholeness. I don't know if I'd use that word exactly, but when you have, uh, I'm trying to be Veiled with my language when you have a full experience of a sexual act what literally goes on Neurologically for you is an is a very intense bonding cycle And so what it's created to do is one of the most powerful things on the face of the planet It's to take two people and to have this repeated experience where they keep bonding and keep bonding and keep bonding and get closer And deeper and closer and closer and closer because the Lord's saying I want to show you what I want you Us to look like, meaning God and the person.

I want to give you a sign of what that looks like and how deeply bonded I want to be with you. Well, it's like he, you know, this is the joke. Like when God's pouring the chemicals together to make reality that he like slipped and he like poured too long in this domain and we're like, Whoa, why'd you put so much of that one in this one?

And we go like, back off a bit. And so we feel like we got to counteract God's design, but that's just not true. Like he got it right the first time. And what he's desiring is that level of intense bonding intimacy with us. Like this is the four and all these domains is exactly what heaven Is it's the fulfillment of all the desires that we have they're put back into right order and I think that's where people just go no way heaven's full of angels and organ music and ice cream like that's we put all these random categories together and go such a trite definition of it and so C.

S. Lewis has this concept of, there's no desire that God can't satisfy. I think what people struggle with is they go, well, I have desires. He won't satisfy my way. Okay. Yes, that is the issue, but a desire that's unsatisfiable. No. That's hard to believe. Oh, just pick up your cross. That's going to make me happy.

Baloney. I'd rather go do this other thing. And this is where the cross is not easy. This is where GK Chesterton says things like Christianity to be, has not been tried and found wanting. It's been found difficult and left untried. Like it is not for the faint of heart, this call to be a disciple of Jesus.

But what you see over and over and over and over with the people who took it serious, we call those people saints. They were deeply satisfied. I would call them the happiest people that have ever lived. Now you might look at them at face value and go, they look sad. Look at the artwork that shows them.

And I'm going, uh, you might not realize all the depth that's going on. Right? Don't judge a book by its cover. I had somebody recently say, Jake, why don't you smile bigger? And I was like, I thought I was smiling. Like, I'm actually happy when I'm making this face, you know? So, there's a bit of that maybe going on.

But, um, Wow. No, no. Profound and so good. And I think this gets to the root of so many struggles in our relationship with God, where I think father, uh, Michael Galey said that the, I think the core problem is that we don't actually trust God because we don't believe he's good. And we think that, He's holding out on us.

We think that he's putting us through these ridiculous rules and regulations and just trying to stifle us so that we don't experience the joy and the pleasure that we could experience on our own. And so like you articulated so well, and I've experienced this in my life too. We just think, well, I really don't believe that God's going to take care of me, come through for me, satisfy me.

So I'm just going to take care of it myself. And that, you know, can look like any number of. unhealthy behavior, but I think that's where the world is right now. And it's so sad and you're right. Like when you go through that, the cross and you go through just living life as it was meant to be lived, even though it's not pain free, it's not easy.

There's like a deeper level of satisfaction of meaning of, of joy that you receive that it's hard to articulate unless you go through it. Yes. I am eternally grateful to John Paul the second. And Christopher West, because the whole anthropology of the theology of the body, particularly how do I manage desire, was them.

Like I, all of that has been formation from them being able to situate the deepest longings of my heart within a context where does, where satisfaction is real and it's also holy. So for example, the concept of freedom. For me, freedom meant Do what I want, when I want, how I want it, so I get the biggest bang for my buck, the biggest return.

And then another concept of freedom was put in, was offered to me, which was, freedom is not living in jail. It's not, because you can do all the things you want within a jail, but you're still in a jail. You're still locked up, you're not actually free, you don't have the capacity to have your yes be yes and your no be no.

Something else is pulling you around like a puppet. But you have to be brutally honest to admit, man, I can't actually do and say what I want here. I'm in bondage. So getting the permission to do whatever I want is different than the capacity. Do I even have the capacity to love somebody? Do we even have the capacity to say no?

So that spin for me was huge. And then to say, what if you can be free and be satisfied? And I was like, that's impossible, right? And it's just so subtle that these narratives get in there. And basically what they taught me was, now you're looking Jesus Christ right in his face and he's saying to you, I can't.

Will you follow me because I promise you I can, and that is a shattering, rattling reality. An author put it this way that I love. When you encounter Jesus as he truly is, you will either turn away from him because you can't handle what he's offering, or you will shamelessly worship him. And that I love that articulation because it captures my experience and I think the honest experience people have when they encounter Jesus as he actually is with all the, all the garbage drapery that we put around him.

Like when you peel all that stuff away and you look Jesus Christ square in the eyes, his offer is life. And he even says it. To the full life to the full is what I'm offering to you. Wow. Wow. Wow. And I love the point you made about freedom. Cause I think people feel that strongly today. Like they want freedom, right?

They don't want to be tied down. They don't want to be, so to speak. They don't want, you know, shackles, but like you said, so often we're slaves to certain behaviors or whatever attachments that we have in our life that we don't even realize. We just think that, no, I choose this thing. But if we ever tried to stop it, it would be like, no, I couldn't really do it.

And I love that definition you gave. And I, the way I've kind of thought about it too, in the past is. The greatest measure of freedom, in my opinion, is, like you said, your capacity to love. The greater your capacity to love, the more free you are. The less your capacity to love, the less free you are. And I think a lot of even moral issues can be looked at through that lens.

And so that, that shifted things for me, especially when I was younger and struggling with, you know, lust and pornography and masturbation, all that stuff. It was, you know, realizing that it was holding me down. And, and there's, it's almost like you can't. You know, I know Christopher Walsh uses the analogy of like eating junk food from a dumpster.

You know, it's like, you can't really imagine what like, you know, an amazing ribeye would taste like when you're in the midst of that. But once you taste it, you're like, my goodness. Like, this is like a world of a difference that I never even knew because I never experienced it. But once you do, you're like, wow, there's something else on the other side.

And I think that's what I want people to hear. From your whole story, like there's something better on the other side that maybe you can imagine or experience or, um, yeah, there's something burning within me that I want to say to people because I, and I almost want to remind my former self of this. So you, you take me back 30 years and, um, Uh, you're looking at a teenage version of me walking up to a beautiful woman and having the integrity of heart to simply love her and not grasp after her felt impossible.

But I can do that now. And the satisfaction that comes from walking up to a beautiful woman and not having this thing within me, that's trying to fantasize or what if, or if I played my cards right, you know, all that stuff that's twisted and distorted within you, and to be able to say it in freedom and to make that a gift to them and they feel and see that you have no ulterior motive.

Watch what that does. It is amazing. I have, what I love about that is that when you start to taste and see what love is like, and to be a lover in all of the right contexts and ways as a, as a husband, as a father, as a brother. To be able to, with utter congruence to walk up to somebody and bless them and not need anything from them.

The life that goes into that person is like stuff you've never seen before. And what that takes is an integrity of heart. Like that, that's not easily won. You don't cheaply go up there. This is one of the things I love about the feminine soul. Their BS meter is so sensitive. It is such a gift, and it's terrifying all at the same time.

And so they can smell your macho BS from so far away. And so what that demands is an utterly clear minded, solid man. And when you can offer that to them, the life that comes into them is like nothing you've ever seen on any false version of pornography. And it's live. And you get to do that all the time.

Like, I'm not recommending going up to everybody and go, Hey, you're beautiful. Hey, you're beautiful. Cause now that starts to get distorted and probably be about you. But imagine your heart is so conformed unto Christ that you are literally moved by what moves his heart. And so you go up to people and you want to love them and you become a lover.

And the right context, an untwisted version of being a lover of people. It is the most satisfying thing in the world, dude. It is unbelievably wonderful for men to, to love men and women. Well, like it's the best, it really is the best. And then to have that capacity to love in a unique and particular relationship where those words.

Can become flesh and you mean it into your bones and to make that gift of someone to someone and for them to receive that gift from you and to have it all be true and good and beautiful and passionate. There's nothing like that. And so, we, we, we, we settle, C. S. Lewis says it this way, we settle for playing in dirty mud puddles when we're made for the holiday at the sea.

And what I'm trying to emphasize is, I have gone on the holidays, I've tasted the holidays that C. S. Lewis references. They're amazing. Like they are worth it. They're incredibly satisfying and they're not cheap. They require a total and complete. Yes. Of the person who wants to realize that reality, but that's what makes them matter.

Like. The, the stuff that we get these days, because it's cheap, like cheap love, cheap respect, cheap praise, it's so shallow. And then you wonder why people are depressed and have no meaning. It's because everything's lost its value. But when you raise a standard. And you hold that standard. The thing has value again.

Like this is one of the things that like with athletics, I'm being an, I like athletics when they start changing all the rules and all the old people who played the sport are like, you can't do this. Like, come on, like, you don't get to change the thing. Cause that compromises the whole point of it all.

You show up and you either won or you lost. You're either better than them or you're not. And there's no other way to prove it other than getting on the mat and showing It is instant. reality right in front of you. And if you want to get better, it takes a lot of dedication and hard work. It just, it is what it is.

You're either going to embrace it or not. There's no games. I love that. It's not cheap. So good. So good. And I think we need to hear about that more. So I'm so glad you, we spent so much time here because I think people, when they're stuck in an addiction or compulsion, They, yeah, lack the motivation and they don't think what's waiting on the other side is worth it.

It's like, no, I'm more comfortable here. And I remember Jay Stringer in his book, he has like this awesome quote about how you have this kind of maddening fight with freedom in the midst of an addiction or compulsion. And I think this gets to the heart of it, because we actually don't think that's what's waiting on the other side is better.

We think what we're in the midst of is so much better. And so feel free to comment on that. But I wanted to shift gears a little bit in the time we have left to kind of fill the gap. We've kind of contrasted what your life was like then to what it's like now, which is just beautiful. Feel free to add anything there.

But I'm curious what happened in between, if there's any particular steps or principles or lessons that you would like to pass on to everyone listening, especially people who maybe find themselves where you were years ago. Yeah, there's numerous things that were very important, you know, over the years I've tried to categorize them and what's difficult about just labeling with.

You know, Oh, here's the five easy steps to pornography recovery. Like it's never that, that that's cheap. And so I don't mean to cheapen it. Like these are very real and there's a lot of depth to them, but I mentioned one before and that would be the sacraments in particular confession. Confession changes lives.

It's a real encounter with supernatural capacity. In particular, in the areas of healing and forgiveness and the grace to be able to not sin again. You, you can't find that anywhere else. You might not be able to see it, but there are lots of things we can't see that are very, very real. So I would say sacraments are very high on the list and use them a lot, go a lot to them.

You know, confession, I'm not encouraging scrupulosity, but I'm saying if you're in an addiction. Go to confession every week go to confession every three days like what I love about my region is I can find confession like Anywhere the next day, right? So just yesterday I was like it was the I'm gonna timestamp this but We're recording this right after the Feast of St.

Joseph. And so Big feast day for me. And I was like, you know what? I just want to go to confession and I could. So I'm really grateful for the priests out there who offer that because it's a huge thing. So sacraments, I would say another one that was very big for me that you mentioned as well, which is other people.

You cannot get through this alone. And there's different kind of types of people that you need. I needed a Christopher West who was like the trainer at the gym. Who's Got the right dose of, come on, you can do this, as well as helping me analyze my, you know, what I'm doing and not doing. But I also had a lot of people who were exceptionally kind.

The guy who I mentioned, who I shared my story with at work and the annulment thing. The first thing he said to me was, Jake, hold your head high. And, and I was like, what did you just hear what I just said? And he said he was fighting for me right in that moment. The brilliance of that man to begin battling shame on my behalf, like in his third statement, it was utterly brilliant.

Hold your head high. You are now fighting a good fight. Like. Oh, that phrase just rang in my ear. So I needed other people. I needed to go to counseling. I needed healing. And so I went to many versions of counseling and basically I've never stopped. I've been in counseling ever since that whole journey started with me.

I've never stopped because I have perpetual areas that I need to address. This area isn't there anymore, but that doesn't mean there aren't other areas that I need to address. So, I went into healing, lots of it, and I just said, I meant this is my path and I'm not getting off of it, because this is what it means to be a Christian.

This is the gospel message, perpetual healing. My prayer life I had to take very seriously. And I made things practical. I made a bet with a buddy, because money was precious when you're young and you're early married and you got new family, so I made a bet with a friend. If one of us misses, uh, we had, we committed to an hour, a holy hour, you have to pay the other guy a hundred bucks.

And that stung. And so it was like, I'm not missing. And you know what? Heather was like, you're not missing. Get your butt up and pray. Cause we don't have a hundred dollars to spare. And I was like, it's not in the budget. Yeah. It's not in the budget. You being lazy is not on the budget. So I needed that.

Another one was fasting. Fasting was very important to me. I had to strengthen my will muscle. That's Christopher West's brilliance. He said, Jake, you go to the gym for your body, but you're not going to the gym for your soul. And part of the going to the gym for your soul is fasting. And so I committed to a bread and water fast on every Friday.

And it was hard. I did not like it. And it wasn't brutal, like I'd go to Panera Bread and I'd get the nicest stinkin bread that I could find. Cause I was like, I don't know, and I, I even eventually got to the point where butter counted. So, I don't know if that was cheating. The point was, I was strengthening a muscle, which was my will muscle.

And I would say the last thing was just truth. I needed to fill, fill myself with a ton of truth. Not just truth like, oh, the church teaches, yes, that. But also, this is the truth about my identity. This is the truth about why I do what I do. This is the truth about God. And I had to fight for those truths to actually, like, find root within my soul.

For the soil to be turned over to be able to anything to have root. Because, like, my life at that point was like a hurricane and you're trying to plant a garden in a hurricane. Like, you gotta really protect some of those things. for them to actually grow and get strong enough. So that's kind of the rough categories that I would say.

No, it's super helpful. And I love that you highlighted the point, like as helpful as all those principles are and those tactics that healing is deeply personal, that it might look a little bit different in different people's life. But I think so many of those components, um, I know in my story were present when I've experienced the most amount of healing.

And so especially I would just double down on that whole vulnerability point of like having someone in your life who just knows everything about you, who you can just share everything about you and who they're just going to love you in spite of it all. Um, it's, it's beyond healing. It's beyond helpful.

It's something that can transform you. Yeah, there, maybe I can nuance that for a little bit. There, there are two types of people that I find helpful and both are needed. And that, and that was represented by Christopher and Tom. Tom was the guy who said, hold your head high. And so as I've seen that over the years and becoming somebody who's worked with people in these regards, I've found that both kinds of people are necessary.

So. The kind that I will love you no matter what. And I will love you in the midst of the sin and the ugliness, et cetera. And Christopher did that for me. He also was a wonderful version of accountability because he wasn't okay with excuses. And so I think a lot of the problem is that people have an accountability partner and what they give each other permission to do is to just get away with whatever.

And so I, I challenged a group of men I was working with one time. And this is one of the best stories I've ever heard. I challenged a group of men one time to actually do real accountability with each other. And so there was a group of men and they came in and one guy kept coming and saying is falling.

And another guy in the group said, I promised you, I promised you. I would help you. And if you come back next week and you say you've fallen again, I will take care of this problem for you. And the guy was like, what? So we're all like, Whoa, what does this mean? The guy comes back the following week. He says, I fell again.

And the guy who promised him said. I'll take care of it. So I'm like, what is going on? So now it's the next week and there is all kinds of issues between these two guys. Well, here's what the guy did. He knew that the way that this guy fell was through the internet and through buying things on TV, he went over to his house.

And he ripped the cable box off of his house and cut all the cable wires, ripped it off, like holding the head of Medusa in his hands and left it on his porch and drove away. So he had no access to the internet. He couldn't get any access to anything. I think that's illegal, what he did, but the commitment was so amazing.

They were the one guy who had his house. Assault was not happy because then he had to pay the company to come back out and fix it and blah, blah, blah. But I went, that's the kind of thing. I'm not promoting illegal behavior, but that's the kind of thing that the guy was serious. He was like, Either I'm, either I'm whole, I'm loving you or I'm not like, uh, so I love that story.

And so good. Maybe that guy's in jail for doing that for other people. No, so good. No, I think it hits on that whole thing. When we're trying to help someone, we need to go in with both truth and love. We can't just love them and, you know, say, well, You know, what you do doesn't matter. No, it does. We need to hit them with the truth and say, no, no, you're, you're called to more than this and you can beat this.

And yeah, I'm going to be standing right there through it with you, but I'm not going to let you fall prey to mediocrity and just like living this life. That's never going to end because that's just depressing. So, so much good stuff there. I want to, um, just get kind of fire. A few questions that you, when it comes to someone listening right now, Who is in that spot that you were in, maybe in their marriage or leading up to marriage in a dating relationship even.

I know those are two different things. So maybe let's just focus on marriage for the sake of this. So what would you say to that person? Like, where do they go first? And I'm curious, do you always advise sharing your struggle with the spouse? Yeah, good questions. I'll be brief. The first things I would say is you're not going to go anywhere if you're not honest.

And so step one is getting honest with the reality of the situation. Christopher did the same thing to me, and he said, you've got to be honest about do you actually want this? Because he said, you can actually want it, and that looks a particular way. Or you can want it. To want it, or you can like the idea of wanting it, that's not wanting freedom, and you just need to be honest about where you're at.

Do I want it? Do I want to want it? Or do I hope to one day want to want it? You know? You've got to situate yourself there. Cause there you're least honest. You have to be honest at first. Then I would say the next step is what do you believe will happen with regard to a journey of transformation? And you need to look for the lies there.

So for example, it's impossible. I said that. I said that all the time. Obviously I'm sitting here proving that wrong, but I believed it. So I believed a lie. So I have to look at what I believe about a process of change and actually examine it and, and, and examine that for lies. And usually you need to do that with someone else.

Amongst all the other stuff, I would say the last one is something I've learned from The Navy SEALs. And I think the reason I say that is because Navy SEALs are people who do extremely difficult things and you can learn a lot from them. There's a friend of mine who's a Navy SEAL. He's a retired Navy SEAL.

And I've talked to him about all these things. And he said, getting free of pornography addiction is an equivalent to going through hell week. So if you know anything about the Navy SEALs, he said, and he's been through hell week. He's been through hell week. So he has real life experience. And he said, I respect any man who has worked through an addiction, man or woman, but we're talking about men work through an addiction of pornography.

He said, you are like us when you've done this. That was huge motivation for me. But one of the things that they teach there is what's called micro goals. The principle is you will never make it through hell week. When you think about the entire week at the same time, You'll quit because it's overwhelming.

So what you have to do is draw your attention, which isn't easy, but it is possible. Draw your attention back until the next thing you're focusing on is reasonable and achievable. And that might be. All I have to focus on is the next 30 minutes. And if that's the sobriety journey that you're in is all my goal right now is the next 30 minutes.

And I'm working hard because it's not instantly happening. I'm working hard to hold my attention to being holy, being pure, and being free. For the next 30 minutes, I'm breaking down this lifelong journey into a goal. That's reasonable and achievable. It's micro goals. That's how they survive extremely difficult things like hell week.

And they train that and they practice that. And then they embody it. I think that's essential to recovery is micro goals. You have to break this whole thing down into realistic parts. And. That doesn't magically happen. That is intentional. Soon as you think about, I'm going to have to go seven years without ever struggling, you're done.

It's too big. You're done. It'll crush you. You got to think about the next 10 minutes, day, week, whatever is manageable to you. So good. And proof that that work is that works is, um, the lone survivor story of Marcus Luttrell, who's a Navy SEAL, who you guys might know this story. He was, um, essentially just left without a team in the mountains in Afghanistan.

And he actually using that exact tactic that Jake just taught, he actually crawled on his belly with like a broken femur. He, his nose was collapsed into his face. Sorry, this kind of graphic he had. bitten through his tongue. Um, he was on his belly, like running from likely hundreds of enemy fighters. He, he would take a stick and draw a line in the sand in front of him.

And he said, if I can just get past that line, I'm going to live. And he did that again. He did that for seven miles. seven miles. And so it works, it works. And so, so, so good. And I think one of the biggest lies I just want to touch on briefly when it comes to, um, breaking free from sexual compulsion addiction is that I'm going to beat it myself.

I'll figure out a way to be yourself. That's a complete lie. And I know you can, we can do a whole nother show on that. But, um, the, the final thing I just wanted to make sure we touched on was just your ministry. You have so much more to offer here. I mean, this, Episode is a proof of it. So please tell us about it.

What do you guys offer and how can people find you online? Yeah, I'd say that the simplest thing is to go to our website life restoration C A, C A is for Canada, we're in Canada. So Life Restoration Ministries is what we do and in that we do all kinds of various things. The biggest thing that we offer is we want people to encounter Jesus and we want people to experience the maturation and healing of their humanity.

So, human formation, healing, encounter with Jesus, that's what we're all about. So, if you're kind of looking at going, what's the nuance here? Human formation is a big nuance. Encounter with Jesus is a big nuance. Um, but we do that through conferences, podcasts, like, podcasts. Uh, we have a podcast and Joe, you've been on ours, which was a great gift to us.

So Heather has a podcast, my wife, she and I run it together, abiding together. I have a podcast called restore the glory. Heather and I are actually going to be starting our own podcast together. It's one of our ministries and podcasts are a thing we love to do. So they'll, that will be one. We do conferences and talks and formation courses, et cetera.

But if you go to the website, you get a sense of all that. And Joey, I, I'm sorry, I know I'm way over time, but I, you, you had asked a question about. Do you say to your spouse or do you not? And I think I'll answer that very, very simply. I wish there was an easy black or white answer. I don't think there is one, but here is one thing I will say in my experience.

I don't know anyone, and I'm sure they exist, but I don't know anyone who hasn't told their spouse and gotten through it. I say that as a field note from my experience. Now, hundreds of people could write in and say, Hey, I great. I just don't know about them. I have a lot of stories of people who have broken free when their spouse was on the journey with them and their spouse was aware.

That's my story. So. That's one comment I would make. But back to the other thing, life restoration podcast, you know, retreats, et cetera, go to that website. Love that. And one piece of advice on that for everyone listening. I've heard that when you do tell your spouse, you want to make sure there's someone else present there who is some have some level of competence in this, because then your spouse has somewhere to go to, to talk about these things and not just between the two of you.

So I've heard that's a really, really helpful tactic. Yeah, we don't want to be flippant. Like, I mean, It's not about you. That's the thing. Um, I mean, we, yeah, we could do a whole other episode just about that, but there's a lot of differing opinions there, but love them. The point is to love them. It's not to get you out of the doghouse or to get you better.

Remember, it's not about you. The point is, what do they need? How can I love them well? Okay. No. So good. And Jake, thank you so much for coming on the show. I could talk with you forever and just such good content, good advice. I want to give you the last word, like what's one final piece of encouragement that you would give to everyone listening, especially someone who finds himself where you were years ago.

Trust Jesus. It sounds cliche, but when you are with him, when you're facing his direction, even if it feels like you're so far away, you don't lose. You never lose. When you are close to Jesus facing him, trust him, it's worth it. So good. Jake is amazing. And it's really an understatement to say that if you want to really soak in all the wisdom that he has to offer, uh, relistening to that episode is a smart move.

But I wanted to highlight the six tips that he gave to break free from sexual compulsion or addiction. Uh, one is sacraments like confession. He mentioned two, People someone to coach you and really hold you accountable through this whole process of breaking free a three therapy to heal the brokenness that drives that behavior for his prayer to tap into strength.

That's beyond your own five is fasting to grow your self control yourself mastery muscle. And six is truth to bury those lies. How to keep you stuck. And if you want more content like this, I highly recommend checking out Jake's website and the podcast that he hosts. Um, but I'd also humbly recommend our podcast series called healing sexual brokenness.

It's a six part series where we just offer a lot of tactics and resources from experts on how to overcome unwanted sexual behavior. So you can find freedom. And it's so relevant for people like us who come from divorce and broken families, because one expert found that 90 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction actually come from a broken family, pretty mind blowing.

And so if you want to listen to that, there's two ways you can do that. Uh, in your podcast app, you can just, once you've selected our show, you can just search. Healing, sexual brokenness, and you'll see all of those episodes. Um, or you can just click on the link in the show notes of this episode, which will take you to restored ministry.

com slash sexual brokenness again, restored ministry. com slash sexual brokenness, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, if you take like 20 seconds out and message them, I promise you they will be so grateful.

And in closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#119: Broken is What Happened to Me, Not Who I Am | Stacey

After her parents divorced, my guest felt abandoned and badly hoped it was all a dream that she could just wake up from. Dealing with all the brokenness that followed led her down a path of feeling stuck and thinking her brokenness defined her. 

Thankfully, she realized that “‘broken’ is what happened to me, not who I am.” In this episode, we touch on that and more:

• How just having the pain of your parents’ divorce validated is incredibly helpful and often the first step of healing

• The many emotional problems she’s had to battle, including anxiety, depression, anger, self-hate, control, and loneliness

• The tendency in people like us to allow fear to hold us back and cause us to play it safe, but how healing can free us from fear

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

After her parents divorced, Stacey felt abandoned and really hoped it was all just a bad dream that she could wake up from. And dealing with all the brokenness that followed from that led her to feeling really stuck and like her brokenness defined her. But thankfully, she realized that broken is what happened to me, not Who I am.

And so in this episode, we discuss all of that and more like how just having the pain of your parents divorce or your broken family validated by someone else is incredibly helpful. And often the first step of healing. She shares really vulnerably the many emotional problems that she's had to battle with over the years connected to.

The breakdown of her family and her parents, uh, divorce. She shares things like anxiety, depression, anger, loneliness, self hate, and even a tendency toward control. We also touch on how healing hurts, but we need to act in order to heal despite the pain. The pain, we also discussed the tendency in people like us from broken families to allow fear to control us and hold us back.

And really that causes us to play it safe in life, but how healing can free us from that fear. And we also offer some advice like how getting outside of yourself and loving other people can actually be incredibly. Healing. So stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage.

So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 119.

As I often say, we're so happy that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback from you. One listener said this, she said, The podcast has helped me to not feel crazy for feeling certain ways and situations and relationships. It has helped me to realize why I am the way I am and learn about myself through that.

It has helped me face up to certain realities about my past, and it is just nice to hear the nuanced explanations about rare cases when divorce is necessary, like for the family safety that happened in my own family. Thank you again. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthier, perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you. This is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, and 75 year olds and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment. But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I want to mention three things.

One, he's done it himself. He's, he's a very ripped, strong, strong man. Dude, uh, he's also just a good man. He's not just worried about his body and fitness, but about every area of his life. Uh, second thing is they actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And from that experience, uh, in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully.

Human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body, we really need to care for it all. So we can become more virtuous and free to love. And the third thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people get strong or ripped. It's really to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

And so if you desire freedom, if you desire that transformation of your body and even your life, Dakota can help you. One client of his said this, Dakota Lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny.

If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further. Dakota Lane. Is your man to see what Dakota offers and the amazing transformations, uh, that his clients have had. Just go to his website, Dakota lane fitness. com. You can even Google that Dakota lane fitness.

com, or you can click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Stacy. Stacy is a wife of almost 25 years and the mom of three young adult children, one of whom will be married this year. As a child of divorce herself, she has a tender heart for children and teens suffering from the effects of their parents.

divorce. Stacey and her husband, Jamie, spent 19 years on their parish, uh, pre Cana marriage prep team where they gave their testimony and shared the beauty of living out God's plan for marriage and sexuality. Her experience as a latch key kid greatly influenced her decision, uh, to stay home with her children, whom she homeschooled for 10 years.

And when Stacey heard of restored and heard of this podcast, she thought I could have used that as a kid. And so she hopes that sharing her story will help others on their journey toward restoration. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here.

This is not a strictly religious podcast. Anyone who's been listening for a while knows that. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to learn a lot. And this episode is going to help you, I promise.

With that, here's my conversation with Stacy. Stacy, welcome to the show. Hi, Joey. Good to be here. I'm excited to speak with you and really appreciate you. Yeah, sticking your neck out the hair and being willing to, you know, come on and help the younger people to just navigate all the brokenness in their families.

And I know like me, you, you know, come from a broken family as well. And so I'm curious, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced and to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing? What happened? Um, I was 10 when they separated. Um, and it was presented as, you know, we're getting separated, but, you know.

When you hear that as a kid, you're like, uh, that means divorce, you know? Um, initially there was, you know, I could tell there was tension between my parents. There was some fighting going on. Um, at some point my mom kind of like moved into my bedroom and I was moved into my sister's bedroom. And, um, eventually I actually overheard her telling my grandmother.

I was, like, on the stairs near our kitchen, and she was in the kitchen, and I overheard her telling my grandmother that they were getting separated. And then eventually she told me. Um, herself. Um, so yeah, so that's how I found out. And it was pretty traumatic. I can imagine. And was this something that kind of, even though you saw the problems within the marriage, was it kind of out of the blue that they were separate and getting divorced?

Or did you kind of predict that that was coming? You know, I don't recall feeling like that was going to happen. Like I knew that things weren't good, but I. I don't know. I don't know if a little, as a little kid, you like fathom that. And you know, I'm a little older, I think than you're most of the people that you talk to.

So this was back in the early eighties when there aren't weren't as many divorced families, um, as there are now. So I didn't know that many kids. I don't know how, I don't even know if I knew any kids whose parents were divorced. Um, so it just, yeah, probably wasn't as much on my radar than maybe it would be for someone today.

Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. It's definitely become somewhat normalized even though it's still, it's kind of this weird thing where we, yeah, divorce is kind of this normal part of life, but we don't really talk about it in the sense of how it is impactful and harmful for the kids. Yeah. And so, yeah, I totally know what you're saying, but is that that extra like stigma that you had to fight through?

I'm sure it was not an easy thing to go through. Yeah. I mean, I remember feeling so ashamed. Um, like going to school knowing so we had My mom was the one we moved out. Um, so, um, my dad stayed in the house for a little while. We moved out, which meant we had to actually move to a, um, new school. And, um, we were only about 15 minutes from where we were, but it was.

You know, far enough that it was a new school. So I had to go to school and I had to tell people that I was leaving and I was so ashamed to tell them that it was because my parents were getting divorced. And, um, so yeah, there was like this stigma there. And, um, I remember I had this wonderful teacher. I was in fifth grade and I told her and she, she actually, Bought me lunch and like sat with me and, you know, talk to me and stuff.

Um, tried to make me feel better in whatever way she could make me feel better. No, that totally makes sense. And wow, that's impressive that that teacher would do that. I, the response that we've heard a lot of times, there was one young woman who came on the podcast and she said that she told her teachers, she told her friends and everyone kind of knew also, cause it was a little bit of a public separation, she said, and everyone acted like it wasn't a big deal.

Everyone acted like it was kind of like a normal part of life kind of like, okay, you know, whatever move on with it And I remember she said she felt so hurt by that because who she was like wait Why am I struggling so much with this if everyone says this is for the best? This is everyone's gonna be happier and I'm so hurt by it.

Maybe something's wrong with me And I think that's a very common response So it's awesome you had a teacher at least who tried to acknowledge that yeah, man This is a difficult thing to go through. Well, I mean You Generally speaking, she was the anomaly. Like generally speaking, that's. That's how it was for me as well.

It was kind of like, oh, you know, kids are resilient, they'll, they'll be okay. Like there's, there seems to be this unwillingness, um, by the adults to acknowledge that divorce is harmful to children, even people who I can understand that with people who actually get divorced because. You know, they're probably trying to make themselves feel a little bit better about it.

Um, but like people who haven't been through divorce, even in our culture, it just seems to be, yeah, just a lack of acknowledgement of the effects that it can have on, on kids and, and this desire to, to minimize it. And honestly, I, that happened to me all through my teen years, even my young adult years, even into my thirties.

Um, I did have. You know, a couple of people along the way who noticed my brokenness, but there was still this unwillingness until I was probably in my thirties. I had a, a therapist who finally said to me like, Oh no, like that's, that's your big thing. Like that's where everything else comes from. That the divorce of your parents was.

huge in your life. And I felt like validated finally for like the first time in my life because I had like an adult saying to me, yeah, that really messed you up. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. No, that sounds super impactful. And I totally know what you mean. In fact, we've heard a lot of feedback from even this podcast alone about how validating and helpful it is because of that alone.

It's like, just someone's like putting into words in a way, you know, what They went through as like really harmful and damaging. And I, like, I've even had people reach out in like their 60s who say what you just said, and even just to us saying like, I've never heard anyone put language to this problem the way that you and your guests are doing.

And it's very helpful. It's validating like you said. And so, of course, the goal, I know you and I would agree on this, like, the goal is to help us to kind of, you know, learn how to best navigate this and to move on in life. We don't want to stay stuck in the past, but in a sense, like we need to grieve that we need to.

Just, yeah, like you said, like just someone to validate the heaviness of it and the fact that it's like really impactful, um, in order to be able to, to move forward in life. Absolutely. And, you know, I feel like if we can do that, like it's, it's hard, it's going to be hard, but like, if you can have that step one, then you can take step two, you know, like, I feel like if, if people are constantly telling you or ignoring your pain or telling you, you know, It wasn't that big a deal or you're telling yourself because I used to tell myself that too.

Like, you know, I would hear somebody else's story and I would say, Oh, thankfully my parents divorce wasn't that bad, you know, and sort of minimizing it even to myself. Um, and the reality is that everyone is different. Also, we all, Like I was a very sensitive. I'm a very sensitive person. Like, I guess I would be considered a highly sensitive person, but I was like that, you know, from the time I was a child, um, people labeled me sensitive, shy, that kind of thing.

So like, take someone like me who has such a sensitive personality. Heart and soul and have what happened, which was not like there was no abuse. There was no, um, infidelity. There was, it was just a marriage that just. Failed, you know, and so I didn't have all these like extreme trauma situations in that, but it's still really traumatized me because of how I made, you know, and, and what I needed as a kid, I needed that security.

No, that makes so much sense. Thanks for sharing that. The definition of trauma that we learned from a therapist that we partner with is that trauma is anything that overwhelms your natural ability to cope. And so you're right. And some scenarios, maybe people through training or through some sort of, you know, natural ability, have the ability to kind of cope with more difficult things or things that are more challenging.

Another person might not be able to, but honestly, since what I've seen is like divorce is almost always traumatic. I'm tempted to say it is always traumatic from the data I've seen in the Hundreds of stories I've heard if not more, um, but it is, it is in itself traumatic regardless of what led up to it, which can also be traumatic too, right?

I was curious, you know, following the divorce and everything that happened in the family, how did you see that impact you? Well, being sensitive the way that I am, um, and also being shy and kind of like socially anxious just as a kid be prior to all of this, you know, um, um, One of the things that happened is my mom went to work full time and so we were left home alone a lot.

I had an eight year old sister so I was kind of in charge of her after school. I developed a lot of anger at being, having to be so responsible and also a lot of fears of, because I was alone a lot and I felt um, like abandoned. I used to go to bed at night and just pray that I would wake up in the morning and it would all have been a dream.

And I started to cope in very unhealthy ways. A lot of my friendships were very unhealthy. I would gravitated towards people who were broken and they sort of helped break me even more. Uh, I had unhealthy relationships with. Boys and men gravitated towards people who were broken, who broke me even more.

And, you know, just a lot of self destructive kind of behaviors, like as I got older, like the older I got in my teenage years and my, you know, like early, like college years, I would say I got the more self destructive I got. And I did a lot of coping with, alcohol and things like that to try to numb, to try to, you know, with the social anxiety, it was like trying to mitigate that.

But also just the, I think I just developed this like deep self loathing because I just did not feel loved or lovable anymore. And then, you know, the more that you do that self destructive, the worse it gets, the more the self loathing gets because you go, why am I doing these things? Why is this happening?

And then, you know, you have people in your life who are treating you poorly or leading you down these bad pathways to all these other things. So, um, I think that's, you know, that all stems from the, the lack of security, like the destruction of security that I had and the loneliness. I was deeply lonely. I still struggle with loneliness.

In my life just internally, um, even though I'm surrounded by amazing people who, who love me, you know, there's just, you know, it's a wound. It's a wound that still exists that I have to, you know, continue to work on. Sure. Wow. No, thank you for sharing. And, and there's so much I want to say. I, um, Yeah, I can relate with the loneliness, certainly, and feeling abandoned and, you know, wishing it was a dream, like, that's a definitely a moving way to put it.

It makes so much sense, like, what we've seen a lot of times is if we, you know, are traumatized by the breakdown of our family, by our parents of worse, we tend to, you know, like you said, go towards unhealthy people and behaviors. And then, like you said so well, those situations can traumatize us further, and then we go into further.

Unhealthy toward unhealthy people and behaviors and it's just this whole like circle the cycle that repeats itself again and again To where I mean i've talked with people who are just at the point of like giving up They're like I i'm so sick and tired of this. I my life is just miserable. I feel stuck I'm, just in a really rough spot.

And so Definitely hear you there and excited to hear the happier part of the story, but man, how heavy and how difficult and yeah, I'm curious to, you know, in your relationships, how that played out as well. Like, what, what, um, did you see in terms of your dating relationships and even your marriage already touched on the relationships a little bit, but I'm curious further of like, how did the breakdown of your family, your parents, divorce impact your relationships?

Yeah. So I'm sure you experienced like a feeling of powerlessness. Um, and so. The way I coped with that is I became controlling. And so, um, and that is something to this day. I, I really struggle with, I'm a lot better than I used to be. And I, but I'm also very much aware of it. So I ha I work on it. I'm working on it constantly, but you know, so, so there was that, then I also felt voiceless.

So I have a tendency to be Reactionary. So like if something happens and I'm not happy about it, you're going to hear it. You're going to know about it because I'm not going to be. I'm not going to be voiceless, you know, um, so, you know, in my marriage that, that has played out and it's, it's something that we've had to work on.

Um, you know, my husband is an, an amazing man and very, very patient. Um, he's also got his own wounds and, you know, in marriage, your wounds kind of usually butt up against your spouse's wounds and then you have to try to figure out how to, how to work that all out. Um, and. We have worked really hard at that.

So, um, but one of the ways that especially played out in my marriage, that was my, my husband owns a business. And when we got married, it was probably the most intense, intensely difficult time in there. Um, it really was, it was really difficult, um, for me at that time and. Because of the anxiety and, and the depression that I suffered with, I felt like, I feel like I couldn't really love my kids the way that they deserve to be loved.

You know, I, I regret that and I, I still have to try to ask God to heal that part. Um, I mean, I, I did what I, Needed to do I wasn't neglectful but like just there wasn't there was an internal part of me that just couldn't give you know everything that I would have liked to have given to them when they were kids and I also parented kind of out of.

Rather than abundance. So like I was fearful of things happening to them and I was, I didn't, I don't think I was able to give them the freedom that they should have had as kids to really be kids, you know, because I was too afraid all the time that something terrible was going to happen to them. So. Yeah, those are pretty intense ways that it affected me, but there is good news.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you just sharing so vulnerably. And I know I can relate to so much of your story and I know our listeners can too. And yeah, no, I've noticed that in my own life, it seems like. Our, yeah, our brokenness just holds us back in so many ways, like one of the ways in which I know it's held me back is I'm definitely I'm going to avoid an attachment type where I tend to like love at arm's length.

And I try to work through that, but like, yeah, there's times where I'm just really bad. Like, I'll just be honest with everyone. And so like, I need to kind of bring myself back to the point of like, okay, I'm not self sufficient. I need other people and I need to like love them and, you know, put my heart out there and be vulnerable and not just like, you know, try to put a shield around myself and my heart.

But, you know, especially when people hurt you, it can, it's a really easy reaction to, to go towards. But, you know, so that holds you back in the sense of, you know, you're not going to experience the joy, the intimacy, the love, the happiness that I think we're made for. And so, you know, and other things I've heard from people like us who come from divorced, broken families is, you know, there's so much fear, like, I think that's one theme we've seen so clearly among all these interviews we've done is like, there's just so much fear that we grapple with, not to say that other people don't, but it seems like there, there's like a certain intensity or we feel maybe a certain lack of competence or ability to like navigate through that fear.

Or maybe we just, you know, feel it. Like I said, more strongly, and that just holds us back. Like, I know a lot of older people I've talked to come from, you know, uh, broken families, like, especially maybe in there in like sixties or beyond, they have regrets of like, man, I never took that risk. I never started that business.

I never like pursued that, you know, person, that girl, that guy. And, um, and I, we've definitely seen that theme. So yeah, just curious if you have any thoughts on kind of that whole theme of like being held back and fear being having such a strong grip on so many of us. Oh my gosh. Yes. And, and. You know, I think it's because we have this deep sense of what loss feels like.

And so, you know, we don't want to lose anymore. You know, we don't want to have, we don't want to have that feeling of loss. And so we hold on to what we have and we don't take the risks that could cause the losses. And, you know, for some people, for me, it didn't manifest this way, but for some people, it means I'm never getting married.

Because I, because I can't risk that, that I'm going to do the same thing that my parents did or whatever, um, you know, it manifests in different people in different ways. And it absolutely has manifested that way in my life. And I'm, I'm just now getting to the point where I'm starting to take more risks and, and realizing, like, I have to surrender.

I have to surrender this control that I've I It's really an illusion. It's not, you know, you're not, we're not in control of anything. You know, we, we're trying to control things. We're not, we're not in control of anything. So like, what's the point? No, it's so true. I even think of that on like the career side, like when I've, you know, making the shift to doing this full time, I was like really afraid of losing, losing like a stable job and all of that.

And then, you know, as you're married an entrepreneur, some of you guys are immune to this, but, you It's, uh, yeah, no, it was just like, so fearful. And then it was so funny once I made at least the partial shift, I'm actually in the process now of making the full shift. I was like, Oh, that's it. Like, all right, I could do this.

Like I can make it through. So, and I think that's a good part to add here, perhaps it's like that, like you said, those fears can often be just this illusion. And the desire to control can just be the solution. Then when we look at it, it's like, you know, like using the career example, it's like, okay, there are certainly like stable, like jobs and businesses out there that are, you know, can add a level of stability to that.

Maybe going on your own would be really hard to achieve, at least in the short term. But at the end of the day, it's like, I mean, what we saw through COVID and everything, it's like, things can change very quickly. And what you thought was one stable, like becomes Pretty darn unstable. And so I think there's, it kind of forces you to like surrender.

Um, especially like in your relationship with God, it's like, man, I really don't control this stuff. Like you said so well, it's, it really is an illusion. And I think that's where I've personally found a lot of peace in life. It's like, God's going to put things on my plate. He wants me to do well with them, but then beyond like the things that are within my control, even then I have to surrender, you know, everything, including that stuff to Him.

And that That, that's definitely helped me because I struggle. I've struggled with anxiety too. And at times I could get, you know, more intense than others. But, um, yeah, that surrender certainly played a huge role because you're right. It's nothing's fully stable. Sadly, I want to shift to kind of the happier part of the story and just, you know, kind of the transformation.

And so I'm curious, what were some of the things that helped you to, to cope and healthy ways and to heal? I think I would say first, My relationship with my husband, you know, I met him, we were in college and I was pretty broken at that time. He was a little broken himself and God just brought us together at that particular time.

And he was, came from a Catholic family. I came from a family where I was baptized and, and I made my first penance and my first Holy communion. Um, but then my parents split up and we were sort of like, Nominal Catholics anyway, um, so I never made my confirmation and I didn't even know when I met my husband, I didn't even know if I believed in God at that point because I thought, you know, it's all this terrible things have happened to me.

Like, how could there be a God, you know, that's where I was. Um, so anyway, when I met him, he sort of his influence on me. Was really like the starting point of my healing journey, which continues to this day because he Eventually kind of had like a reversion and and really started getting serious about his faith And he kind of brought me along with him and it was sort of like you're either coming along with me or we're breaking up you know like I You know, I love you, but I, I have to be married to someone who's Catholic and I have to be, you know, in the same universe there.

So, um, I am a truth seeker and I always have been. So I just started looking into things and they just started bringing true to me. And so I made my confirmation as a, I was almost 25 when I made my confirmation. So that was, that was like probably the initial thing. But then, um, You know, there was periods of time when I needed therapy and I already spoke of the one therapist, this was a Catholic therapist.

if anyone's, you know, if you're Catholic or Christian, I really recommend a Catholic or Christian therapist who really will speak the same language as you and who, who sees marriage in the same light, you know, cause like for me to go to a secular therapist who maybe would think divorce is okay, that that wasn't going to be helpful for me.

Um, so to have that therapist say, like, Yeah, that was your that's your like your primal wound that also was very healing and it set me on a path of healing. You know, having, having different thoughts about what happened. And then I, more than the therapy, at least having like the life of the church, the life of the church, the sacraments, the community, um, just being in community with people.

We were involved in charismatic prayer for a while. That was extremely healing. Um, because I learned more about. God and his love and what he wanted to do for us. And I developed a community of people in our parish and also through homeschooling. We homeschooled for 10 years and that got me involved in some Bible studies.

And I developed these friendships that were very vulnerable. And that has been one of the biggest ways that I've healed is through these relationships with people who are also willing to be vulnerable about. their stories, people who will pray with me. Um, we pray for each other. And, um, so those, those have been extremely healing.

I've also been blessed to be introduced to deliverance prayer. And for those who don't know, deliverance prayer is really just Identifying where the enemy, the devil has gained access to you through your wounds and whispered lies into your life and over you and, and who has, you know, and where you've kind of agreed with them.

Like, so, for example, like, I'm unlovable is a lie and that comes from, um, My parents must not have loved me enough to stay together. So, like, that's a lie. And then you agree with that lie, and you go, That must be true. And then you start operating out of that lie. Like, I actually am unlovable. Which is false.

So, Deliverance Prayer is really, like, renouncing those lies and saying, You know, in the name of Jesus, I renounced that lie. And, um, that was extremely helpful for me to go through all the lies and the vows and the curses and all the things that have, like, piled on through the years. Yeah, no, so good. I want you to continue, but I, um Just wanted to comment on like that, the intimacy portion.

I mean, all everything you said is so good, but the, the way that I've understood it, like listening to dr. Bob shoots, for example, um, I forget who he quotes when he says this, but he was saying like at the root of every wound is a deprivation or a distortion of love. And so it like naturally follows that to.

To heal those wounds, we need authentic love, you know, in, in various forms, right? You talked about your relationship with God, you talked about your relationship with your husband, other people, like, it makes sense that like authentic love would be so healing and beautiful. And that's one of the principles we preach to is, you know, healing happens in relationship.

Like it can't happen elsewhere. Like we can't really, yeah. Listening to a podcast, reading a book, doing getting the content is good. It's like one of the steps in this whole process. But eventually you have to go beyond that. And so it sounds, you know, like that was extremely helpful and fruitful for you, which is beautiful, but I'm curious.

Yeah. Anything else to add in terms of what helped you to heal? Yeah. I mean, The way to heal feeling unlovable is to allow people to love you. And I have so many people who love me and I feel incredibly blessed because of that. Like, sometimes it brings me just to tears that the, the number of people who God has brought into my life to love me and, and then give me the opportunity to love back.

It is that relationship. Relationship is one of the biggest ways to healing has been for me. So good. No, I love it. And one of the things I just learned from you too, is that like the, the answer to insecurities is evidence in the sense that like, we need to be shown and told and very like concrete ways that like, no, like you said, believe in that lie that I'm unlovable.

We need evidence to say that, no, that's actually not true. Because one of the things I've seen in like the whole self, self help, you know, personal development world is like, they'll tell you to like, talk to a mirror, write down in your journal, like these things that you, you know. believe that are true about you.

But if there's no evidence to back it up, like you can't point to some other person or situation, like God being one of them, or, you know, your relationships, then I think it just is empty. We're saying things that maybe, you know, they might be true in the end, but if we don't have like any evidence to back them up with, and I think it can be tricky and problematic and we end up doubting it.

But when you have that clear evidence, like again, people in your life where you like telling you these things are showing you through their actions, then I think it's way more convincing. Um, you know, we're always at work in progress. We talk about healing as like this infinite goal of like, you know, we're always becoming like better, stronger, more virtuous, more whole, more healthy, healthier.

Um, but I'm curious, kind of the transformation that you've seen from that younger you to where you are now, like contrast that a little bit for us. Like what's different now? Yeah. I mean, I definitely, I feel like healing comes in layers and it comes in seasons and it comes, um, sometimes it comes all at once in a flurry, sometimes it's super slow and I've experienced all those things in my life and I feel like I may, while I still struggle with anxiety, I still struggle with depression, I am much more able to surrender.

And when I'm experiencing those things to go to God and just say, God, I just, I can't do this. I need you to do this for me. One of the things that has helped me a lot is adoration and just really just going in front of the blessed sacrament and just. Just laying it all out, you know, and just saying, God, I, I can't, I can't.

There was a period of time five or six years ago where I was in the Adoration Chapel almost every day because I needed to be there with Jesus. And it helped me tremendously. But I also now can look back and say, that was a very, very healing time because I was so stripped down and I was so vulnerable that he really worked.

A lot. And really it set the stage for where I am today, the certain risks that I'm now taking in certain areas where God is saying like, go here, do this, you know, and I also am able, I feel like I'm much more self aware. I know what my triggers are. I know what my wounds are and I'm, I'm starting to be able to operate outside of my wounds instead of in them all the time, you know, there's a period of time in my life where I was just everything I did was just out of my wounds, you know, like every reaction I had every step I took was all out of my wounds.

And now I feel like. I can sort of step back and, and see the wounds and they're there and I feel them still, but they're not ruling me constantly, you know, and I think I, I've developed a compassion for the younger me, you know, I hated the younger me for the longest time for being so dumb and getting involved in all these things that were hurtful and for being, you know, in my mind, weak and, you know, all these different things that, you know, The self loathing and stuff like now i think i have more compassion for my younger self i think it's why i can have i have a lot of compassion for people who are going through kids who are going through what what i went through and i also feel like i'm growing a lot in trust and surrender and trying to grow in humility i feel like i think when you have these kinds of wounds you're it can be real um, Pitfall for, for pride to like really jump in because you have this sense of justice and this feeling of like, I have to protect myself.

And so like everything becomes about you and what you you're getting out of things and, and how you're not going to get hurt and you're not going to let this happen and all that. And I think that can be, it can cause a lot of pride in our lives. The pride thing is so interesting. I've never heard it said exactly like that, but it makes so much sense that we, yeah.

Cause like, I guess the essence of pride is kind of like continue looking in on yourself, you know, continue looking, being kind of self absorbed self. And sometimes, you know, There is that kind of survival, survival, survivor instinct that we do that when we're wounded, right? We kind of just, if we're in pain, we need to take care of the pain and the wound.

But it is really interesting. And I think that is a, such a pivotal part of healing is kind of going outside of yourself, going beyond yourself. And I found that helpful too. I've mentioned in other podcasts just, yeah, the advice, you know, I've gotten from mentors where it's like, okay, I know you're hurting, I know you're, And you need to heal that.

But one of the things that can be so helpful is just kind of looking beyond your own pain and finding people in your life who you can love and you can help. And again, not as an escape from dealing with their own stuff, because I think it can be used that way, but really as a way of like, okay, there's other people in the world who are suffering too.

And I've, that's just been helpful for me, but yeah, just that whole idea of humility of like not putting yourself down. Like CS Lewis said, I said this not long ago in an episode, it's like, you're not thinking. Less of yourself, just thinking of yourself less. Yes. I totally agree with that. I, yes, I feel like in order to heal, um, you do have to get outside of yourself because we, we tend to go.

Inside, we tend to, you know, think about constantly what happened to us or what went wrong or whatever. And I think in any situation, and I'm just talking about divorce, anything, anytime you have someone who's experienced trauma, I feel like part of the healing is. Getting outside of yourself outside of your own mind and helping other people.

And, you know, at some point I, um, I don't know where if I came across this or if it was given to me just in like revelation, but I got this, um, word that was given to me. You don't need to be healed in order to do you need to do in order to be healed and that has really been beautiful that has been sort of a quote that has played in my mind over and over over the last few years as I've experienced really a much deeper healing period and.

you know, I felt like God has really called me out of myself in the last few years and, and said like, no, you need to start doing like, I know you don't feel totally equipped and I know you don't feel totally ready. And I know that you still have these issues that you deal with, but you need to start doing, and that's where the healing is going to come.

And as I've done things, yes, that is, that has been true. And so then that reinforces to me, like, okay, God's got me. He His word is true. What he's saying to me is true when I pray and I get these. You know words from him like it's it's true and I have to I have to listen Beautiful. Well, I love that and I I was thinking of just like kind of the physical form of what you just said of like You know Don't wait to heal to do like do and then you'll be healed through that and I was thinking of a surgery I got while while back and I remember the doctors telling me like, okay, it's gonna be painful And this is counterintuitive, but you need to like move a lot.

You need to walk a lot in order to get blood flow to the wound in order for it to heal. And it was, it was, it was painful to do that. But as I did it, the wound healed and I got better. And now I have, you know, full function of that part of my body. And so, um, it would have been really easy though, kind of to your point to think, well, I'll start walking and moving when I feel healed, but it's like, no, no, no.

It's like through the walking, the moving, Then you feel healed. So I thought that was really interesting that there's like a physical truth there too. Yeah. I mean, I experienced that similarly last year. I broke my foot and I was on crutches for like eight weeks and in a boot for another eight weeks. And by the time it was all over, it hurt to walk.

And you know, so I had to go to physical therapy and they had to manipulate it and it hurt. And you know, I had to do these exercises, but now it's, you know, it's all better and it is going to hurt. Do I think a lot of people want to just like turtle up and I, I turtled up, you know, for a long time, I just curled up in a ball and didn't do anything.

And I think a lot of people want to let their wounds sit there and just let them, you know, heal, but they're not always going to heal. Sometimes they have to be scraped out, you know, and sometimes. I heard, I listened to this podcast sometimes called the place we find ourselves. And I remember, you know, that, yeah, great podcast.

Um, and he, I remember him talking about the healing of wounds and how, you know, you have to go down into the valley in order to get back up to the mountain top. You know, so and you have to go through it. There's no way around it if you want to get up to the top of that mountain, you have to go through that valley.

You can't go around it. And yeah, it's hard and it's painful, but it's so worth it. And it's so rewarding when you get to the top and you can say, Oh, my gosh, I did it. You know, I made it through that. And then you're you are stronger. You really are. Yeah. Stronger. Everything that I've gone through has made me a stronger person.

I love that. And then you're better able to love. And I think one of the things I've seen too, when it comes to just healing in the people's lives is that like, when you kind of walk through that, you, on the other side of maybe comfort of shut shelling up on the other side of like, you know, the brokenness is freedom, that there's a lot of freedom, but you said, you're right.

Like there's pain in the middle, which I think scares a lot of people. Cause we, we don't like pain obviously, but we don't know. Maybe if it'll, Will be worth it. We don't know if we're going to be able to get to the mountaintop. Um, and so I totally get that there's a lot of like doubts and insecurities there, but, but I've found, yeah, when you kind of work through that, you feel free and you truly find freedom, but it is painful to get there.

And I think too, there's definitely a trend right now. And I'm curious your thoughts on this and our world of just kind of falling into this like perpetual victim mode mentality, right? Where we. Yeah, just kind of blame everything and anyone around us for not being, you know, able to move forward in life.

And I'm not talking about like serious disabilities, things like that, but you know, I haven't even seen this in myself. It can be easy to blame even our parents, you know, and one of the ways that we talk about this, just to clarify anyone who's confused on this is like, we're not saying not to acknowledge the pain that someone caused, or even the fact that they like, they did that, they, they need to take ownership of that.

But the way we talk about it is like, even if you didn't cause the problem, you can take ownership of the solution. You don't need to let that define your life. You don't need to let that someone else write your own story. Like you can write your own story. And we're big believers in that. Um, so, but yeah, it's sad to see, especially, you know, in younger generations, um, you know, Just how like debilitating I think brokenness and wounds can be, like you said, where we just kind of shell up and just be like, well, this is what my life is going to be like now.

Can't really improve it. Get any better. Um, even if there was this kind of long shot, I could, it's not really worth it to go through it. So just curious on your thoughts on the whole victim mentality thing. I mean, I definitely had that mentality for a long time and it's really hard when you're feeling, you know, stuck to get out of that.

Honestly, like I, there were times when I wanted to give up or plenty of times when I wanted to give up, but then I, I looked around me and I thought, like, I would see my kids or I would see my husband and I would say, like, uh, they deserve me to be better. They deserve for me to be more whole and I deserve for me to be more whole.

Like, I don't have to be like this. I don't broken is what happened to me. It's not who I am. You know, like. I'm not Stacy, the broken woman, I'm Stacy, and I have some brokenness because of what happened to me. Like, I can't define myself by that. For so many years, I think I defined myself by my brokenness, by my wounds, by my things that I did that were shameful.

And, you know, I just, at some point, You have to make a decision. Like, this is your life. You only get one. You have to decide. Do you want to live stuck in your wounds and feeling sorry for yourself your whole life? Or do you want to try to climb out of that and live abundantly and joyfully? And does that mean you're not gonna suffer?

No. Like, we're all gonna suffer. I'm gonna suffer a lot more before I die. So are you. So is everybody else. But it doesn't mean that you're not going to have joy in your life and that it's, it's not worth it. It is worth it. It's, it's so worth it. Wow. So good. I have nothing to add. Like you said that so beautifully that thank you and shifting gears a little bit and coming to the close of our conversation.

I'm just curious if you were to sit down with your parents and talk to them about this, or maybe if they were, you know, happened to listen to this, what would you want them to know? Like, I mean, I'm very blessed because my parents. Got to a place where we actually like do holidays together and stuff, you know, and I'm also very blessed because my mom has had the humility to let me talk to her about how I was wounded and, and to sit there and, and listen and be open to that.

And it has been very healing for me, but also very healing for our relationship. And so. You know, I don't I'm not talking about this because I want to blame like you said, like, I don't blame my parents. I don't have animosity toward my parents. I love my parents. They're wonderful people. Um, I forgive them for, you know, the ways that they failed me.

I hope my kids. will forgive me someday for the ways that I failed them. I want to be able to help other people see that this is not the end of the road for them, you know, and that's why I want to talk about these things. And, you know, I feel like you have to talk about them. In order to, to bring them into the light, because you can't heal broken things if you, if they're in the darkness, you know, you have to bring all things to the light and I know people don't like to talk about these things, but you have to, I feel like with anything that's broken, it needs to be talked about in order for it to, to heal.

And also I'm, you know, in terms of my parents, like, everything that I went through. It was just, honestly, the other day I was in adoration and I was sitting there and I was just praying. And I thought, and all of a sudden this flood of like the tapestry of my life came to me and how God worked all the things that happened for good.

And all of the different people who have come into my life and all of the wonderful things that have happened to me and all that. It was, it was just an opening of my eyes to like, it's not all bad. It wasn't all bad and it's not going to be all bad. You know, there's so much good in your life and there's so much joy in your life and there's so much left still for you to do in your life.

And so, you know, I just want to, I want people to have hope that even if they're dealing with brokenness and pain, that they're not always going to be that way. And even if they have periods of Healing where they're feeling better, and then they kind of regress. It's okay, like, you're not gonna stay there.

You're gonna, you're gonna move forward again. Cause, you know, St. Teresa of Avila says, like, um, let nothing disturb you. All things are passing. You know, all things are passing. And God alone suffices. And, if you bring it to God, Then he will, weave it into a beautiful tapestry. No, I love all that. And I think there's even lessons for any parents listening right now, just how your mom was able to listen to you and, you know, perhaps she asked some questions and was able to kind of take ownership of her piece of it.

I think that's really, really big. And, uh, yeah, and then you both are able to, you know, you were able to get to a point of forgiving her, which is really, really beautiful. Um, so good. And I love that reminder too. I mean, there's so much in what you said, but one thing I wanted to point out too, is that when you kind of go on this path of trying to heal from brokenness, then we need to be ready to give ourselves some grace to along the way.

Like we can't expect. You know, like perfection in this process, because it's messy, it's not going to be perfect. And if you do expect that, which I know so many of us who come from broken families do kind of struggle with the control that we talked about before perfectionism. And, uh, if you do expect that, then it's going to be, yeah, just a really difficult process.

Much more difficult process for you. So I think just giving yourself grace, kind of how you might give grace to another person who you saw is like, man, they're going through a hard time. I think is, is really, really good. But then, like you said, also having that hope that like, there's so much good ahead of you that, That if you, you know, work at it and rely on God's grace, like you said, you can experience that.

Like, I firmly believe that. In closing, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on here. I know this is like, um, it's an act of bravery. I don't say that enough when people come on here to share their stories, because it's not an easy thing to do. So thank you. And I just wanted to give you the last word when it comes to, you know, what would you say to the younger you to that?

young woman who's listening right now, who maybe feels stuck in life. They feel broken. They're acting out in all these sorts of ways. Like, what would you want to say to them? I would say like, for me, I wish I had been, I wish I had been able to articulate to the adults in my life that how much I was hurting.

I wish I'd been able to articulate that to the adults in my life, um, how much I was hurting and like, you do have a voice and you can use your voice and you don't have to sit back and say like, I can't say anything because it'll hurt my mom's feelings or my dad will be upset. Or I don't really have a voice because this isn't my thing.

You know, like I just have to go along and not say anything. Like I would say it. And if you feel like you can't talk to your parents. Talk to a trusted person that you, you know, adult, a pastor, a family member, a friend, whoever it is, and, and know that how you're feeling is, is normal. Like, there's nothing abnormal about you.

There's nothing abnormal about how you're reacting to this. There's nothing abnormal about how you're feeling. And there's nothing wrong. You're not wrong. So, just understand that your, your feelings matter. That would be, that would be one thing. And then, another thing would be, if you're, especially if like you're a young adult and you're discerning marriage.

I would say if you can work through some of your divorce pain prior to getting married, whether that be alone or with your, um, future spouse or, you know, then I would highly recommend that because we do bring our baggage into our marriages with us and unaddressed wounds and pain can become real problems in relationships.

And if we don't have the awareness of. You know, our thought patterns and behaviors and stuff like that. It can be, it can be difficult to navigate once you're already married. So that, that would be a suggestion that I have. There's so much I loved about that interview. Stacy has really deep insights into healing and brokenness, and I'm really grateful that she joined us.

And if you'd like to share your story with us, like Stacy did, We'd love to hear it. You can do it in three simple steps. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story in a really active way and sharing that story with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level.

According to a neurobiologist, it actually makes your brain healthier. Writing your story is also healing. There's been numerous studies that show that People who write about emotionally significant events in their life are happier, they're healthier, they're less depressed, less anxious, and so many other great benefits.

And also, sharing your story can be super helpful to someone who's maybe going through what you went through and who can learn some lessons from you. By reading your story. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com slash story. And on that page, you just fill out a form that tells a short version of your story.

And then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com slash story, or just click on the link. And the show notes, if you come from a broken or divorced family, or maybe, you know, someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Our resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of our resources are really designed to help you heal from the trauma you've endured and build virtue. So you can break the cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view these resources for yourself or someone, you know, just go to restored.

mini. com.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them. I promise you, they will be super grateful that you did. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#118: Resolving Conflict is a Skill | Cody & Katherine

If you’re like me, you never saw conflict resolved peacefully in your family. As a result, you might feel a bit lost about how to resolve conflict in your life, especially in your relationships. 

If that’s you, this episode will help. In it, a married couple joins to share tips they’ve learned on resolving conflict, plus:

• Why it’s important to let small things go, but how letting too much go can lead to resentment

• The four levels of learning any skill

• Advice to someone from an intact family who’s dating, engaged, or even married to someone from a broken family

Get FREE Guide: 7 Tips to Build Healthy Relationships & a Divorce-Proof Marriage

Visit Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Watch Cody's previous episode: Episode 111

• Read "Hold me Tight" by Sue Johnson

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're like me, you probably never saw conflict handled very well in your family. And as a result, you might feel kind of unequipped and even lost when it comes to dealing with conflict in your own life, especially in your intimate relationships. And if that describes you, this episode is going to help you.

I'm joined by a married couple that shares some tips that they've learned and used. That helped them navigate conflict. Plus how not to let fear hold you back in relationships. We talk about the unspoken belief that so many of us from broken families believe that conflict leads to permanent separation.

A term that was coined by my friend, Layla Miller. We also hit on why it's so important within marriage to let the small things go. But if you let everything go, that will actually just lead to resentment towards your spouse. We Touch on the four levels or steps to learn any skill, including the skill of conflict resolution.

And finally, they share some advice to someone from an intact family who's maybe dating engaged or married to someone who comes from a broken family. Stay with us.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 100. Eighteen. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard so much great feedback. One listener said this. I recommended your podcast to a friend. A week later, she came back and said, this is my new favorite podcast. Thanks for the work you do. Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness.

If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you. This is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world and in a safe and approachable environment. But what makes Dakota different than the numerous. Fitness and health coaches out there. Three things. One, he's done it himself.

He's a very healthy, ripped dude. He's also a good, virtuous man who doesn't just care about his body, but the rest of his life as well, uh, to, he studied to become for a priest, actually for a little while. And through that experience in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest of The rest, like your body, we need to care for it all.

And so we can become more virtuous and free to love. And number three is the code of mission is all about leading people to the experience, the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way they were made to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you want to transform your body and even your life.

Dakota can help one client said this about Dakota, Dakota lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, Look no further, Dakota Lane is your man.

And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have achieved, just go to Dakota lane, fitness. com, Dakota lane, fitness. com. You can even Google that or just click on the link in the show notes. My guests today are Cody and Catherine. Cody, as you'll hear in the conversation, experienced the divorce of his parents at age 14 in college.

He had a reversion to his Catholic faith where he found the support to untangle the pain he experienced. Cody is a joyful newlywed and expectant father. He works as an engineer and he's a self proclaimed armchair, armchair, a philosopher and theologian. Catherine, his wife, uh, is a mother and a missionary as well as a wife.

And after graduating from the University of Missouri with a degree in journalism, she spent three years working in campus ministry, uh, with Focus, the fellowship of Catholic University students, uh, during which she met her husband, Cody. Uh, she continues to work with Focus as a marketing specialist. In her free time, she reads good books with friends, backpacks around Michigan's upper peninsula and dreams up more effective ways to run her household.

Cody were married in July 2023 and are expecting their first child in April 2024, and they have a passion for just self aware communication, playfulness, and intellectual formation, believing that the theology of our bodies reveals much more about how to know and love one another. Now in this conversation, we do talk a bit about God and faith.

If you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. Anyone who knows this podcast knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is just this, listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode.

And with that, here's our chat. Cody and Catherine, welcome to the show. Good to be here, Joe. Yeah, I'm excited. No, I'm a big fan of you both. And, um, uh, yeah, excited to learn more about your story. I know I've, I've learned a bit here there about it, but yeah, how did you guys meet? Let's just start with a kind of softball question.

Where'd you meet? So I, I worked for a Catholic, uh, campus ministry organization and got sent as part of that organization up to Michigan tech where Cody was a student. Uh, so I was a missionary, uh, serving in that capacity And so I didn't know Cody. Um, I knew his best friend was one of the people who served on my team with me.

I was also on Dating Fast when we first met as part of my service as a missionary. So I think that made me feel very free to hang out with him and see him as a brother figure. No, I like it. Okay. So you guys kind of hit it off that way. I met through other people and uh, kind of built your friendship though.

I'm curious, like, did you guys have this long period of friendship or were you pretty soon interested in each other and wanting to take things to the dating level? I didn't really get to know Catherine very well until probably January, uh, of that like whole academic year. So I was pretty much right or off.

And then it was, uh, She's kind of cute, but unavailable. It's a shame. I'm going to go ask out somebody else. And so I did. So I went on a couple of dates with her and wasn't terribly interested in that. And by then the semester had ended and, uh, Catherine was at the end of her first year on mission, so she was then able to go on dates and, uh, that's right.

One of my friends who was a groomsman later at our wedding pulled me aside. It's like, Hey man, you're going to ask Catherine out? And I said, no, I'm not terribly interested in that. Like, well, you should, she's great. And I know you've said that you would take her out if you could. And then on my end, I had been really interested in discerning religious life.

So looking at other options besides marriage, um, while I was on the dating fast, but I knew that. There were a lot of really awesome men in my life. At that point, I had fellow missionary and teammates, a lot of the male students. I had just built a great friendship with them throughout that first year, um, that I was at Michigan tech.

And so I had told my manager. That, you know, all of the men at Tech, they're really great. If one of them asked me on a date, I would say yes, even Cody Eby. Because I thought he was, he was like the weirdest of all of the weird ones. There is kind of this spectrum of, you know, we've got like the hunters and the outdoorsmen, and then we've got the nerds, because they're most of, The students at Tech are engineers, but I definitely put Cody on the weirder than I would normally date, but I would be open.

Um, and so as the story goes, two hours after the official end of the dating fast, which was marked by a piñata, uh, Cody asked me on a date. Um, yeah, and then we dated for eight months. We were engaged for 16, um, and I've been married now for eight months. Beautiful. Okay. Thanks for sharing. And that makes sense.

Like, yeah, about the dating fast. So anyone who's not familiar, it's just a period of time where you choose not to date because you're, you know, in Catherine's situation, she was a missionary serving college students. So, um, just something that organization has their missionaries do. Well, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, what are your families like?

Like, what are your family's backgrounds? Now, obviously Cody, you've come on the show. We'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. But, um, if you would give us a little bit of a recap and then Catherine as well, I'd love to hear a bit about your family. Yeah. So my parents divorced when I was about.

Um, it was a fairly troubled marriage and then post split, it was just me bouncing between households. Um, and then primarily staying with my mother. So there was a lot of, uh, dysfunction. Yeah. And then I come, um, from an intact family. Um, my parents have been married for 30 years and I have three children.

Three brothers, one older and two younger, and grew up in suburban Minnesota. Um, and just had a very different experience, um, from Cody had a very close knit family and we did a lot of family vacations and family dinners together. Uh, and that was definitely a lens that I brought into the relationship that I think affected my ability just to understand family dynamics that were different from what I had.

So it's not also that you had siblings and I didn't. That is true, but I had all boy siblings. It definitely can give you some advantages for sure. It definitely is helpful. I should say, um, no, thank you guys for going into that and explaining. And that is so interesting. The dynamic between an intact family and a, you know, a broken family.

I want to go into that a bit deeper in a little bit. But I am curious, like through this whole like dating phase for you guys, were there certain qualities and virtues that you were looking for in another person? Or was it more that there was just a personal attraction between like the two of you that you began to explore?

Like you didn't have this whole checklist and you're like, yep, Cody checks this and Catherine checks this. Just curious what that was like for you. What were you looking for in each other? Maybe Catherine first. Yeah, absolutely. That's, it's so funny because I think. At one point in my life, I, for sure, had a checklist of all the things that I was looking for in a future husband.

I think at the point that Cody and I started dating, I hadn't even been thinking about that for, for quite a while. Didn't date really at all in college and just, Yeah, I felt very free to give myself in friendship. Um, and so walking into dating, I, I didn't even really know what I wanted or what I expected.

Um, which I think led both to putting pressure on Cody that didn't necessarily need to be there because I was trying to hold him to this ideal. Even though, um, yeah, I hadn't set down expectations and that was something a mentor. had encouraged me while dating to do is actually sit down and ask yourself for me to ask myself, is he actually like checking the boxes you think you have in your head or are your ideals unrealistic?

And that was also something, um, that, uh, a close priest had said to me as well, uh, is just a really, Really know my own heart and my own mind when it came to that. It's interesting because I remember on our second date there was this whole moment near the end of the date where I just I was going in at that point.

I had decided like oh, this has been fun, but I don't want to go on more dates Uh and started explaining all of that to cody. He just started to stop me and be like What, so what are you actually saying? Um, and I realized in all of that crazy rambling that I was going through, that the thing that I was actually wrestling with is just being afraid of, of something new of a dating relationship and dating at a time when, um, I was stepping into a new leadership role on campus and just a lot of things were changing in my life.

Um, yeah. And just his advice, um, to step into that place of fear. Uh, to do it scared and just really enter into all the uncertainty. That was a huge help in, even later in the process of me sorting through kind of what, what were some of those, those boxes I was looking for. That was the moment I went back to in all the times when I thought, Oh, Cody doesn't check this box.

Um, Oh, specifically in the area of faith, right? I was a missionary who was praying every single day, very involved in evangelizing. Um, and Cody's life as a college student looked very different. His, his personal devotion to God looked very different than mine was. And I think I was looking for someone with the exact, the exact flavor of, uh, faith life that I had.

Um, but in realizing that deeper than any of those faith aspects was actually just realizing that I felt very safe with him. I felt safe to be vulnerable, um, and that wasn't Something that I've had much in my life, just because of my own, my own personal woundedness, um, it involves a lot of fear and fear of, um, people pleasing and just wanting to be perfect for everyone.

And so this fact that even if the things I thought I wanted were Like, this perfect Christian man wasn't there. What I actually needed was someone who, who listened to me, who accepted me, who was willing to work through the hard things. And that was feedback we got from friends during that time, is that we had great interpersonal communication.

Um, actually, the, the person during our marriage prep frequently said, Do you, do you guys ever have conflict? Cause you've clearly figured out how to resolve it very quickly. Uh, I think another person was so concerned that we were so good at the, the, the conflict resolution language. Like, do you have normal conversations?

Like you talk to each other. Like friends, right? Like very concerned that we're too good at voicing opinions. We were apparently like a plus stars of I statements. And yeah, it was good. Yeah. Talk us through a little bit of that. Cause I know this conflict is such a difficult thing for typically for people who come from broken families, especially once you get an intimate relationship, you get married, like it can be a really difficult waters because for so many of us, as you both know.

We didn't see that modeled well, but I'm a big believer that you can learn how to navigate that. And it sounds like you did, Cody, and Catherine, you as well. So I'm just curious, like, what is your mode of operating when it comes to conflict? And maybe what advice would you give to someone who's like, I don't really know what I'm doing?

Yeah, I think for me coming from a very classic passive aggressive midwestern family, we just, we didn't, we had a lot of deep discussions growing up, but not a lot of diving into the conflict or saying the things that were really important or were hurtful to us. Um, and I think the thing that really helped me most was in some of those marriage preparation classes.

They just gave us a language that we could use, um, using I statements, um, and explaining how we felt. Uh, Or I think we, we read a book called Hold Me Tight, which is just a, a psychology book about, um, intimate relationships and some of that language of just learning how to, um, to speak about kind of our, our interior, our feelings, um, the things that we're expressing.

That was really huge for me. I love having a framework. I will read Like psychology books until the cows come home. Um, but being able to know that I had someone who was trained the same way that I was to just be able to say, okay, we're going to stop, um, being able to even now call each other out and say, Like, Oh, it sounds like the way that you're speaking to me.

It sounds like something is going deeper. Can we stop? Can we take a moment to just enter into that space and really talk about what we're feeling? Um, and honestly, learning a list of emotion words, uh, like brainstorming, not just happy, sad, angry, but what are maybe some of those more? Like I'm feeling afraid in this particular way, or I'm feeling discouraged.

Um, Yeah, that was really helpful in just me having to stop and identify what I was feeling and I'm, I'm a very slow processor by personality. So sometimes it would take us, our friends joke that sometimes it would take us hours to go and have one conversation because we just needed all that time to process, which is totally okay.

If you're a fast processor, great. Um, sometimes that makes it easier, but if you're slow or need to step away for a moment, take a five minute breather, figure out what you're feeling and then come back to the conversation. Um, that all of those things were very helpful.

I'm married to Treebeard, who believes that, uh, things aren't worth, uh, saying, unless you're willing to take a long time to say it. Which is funny, because the one thing that we did during that year of friendship was watch Lord of the Rings together. So, gladly, we lived that. Um, no, right? It's like, just, just coming from like my own experience, like conflict, uh, in a relationship being something that's like really, you know, It creates a lot of fear in previous relationships, getting to experience that and like the instability of dating.

Right. I think that's like one of the worst things about it for someone who's grown up from a divorce household. Right. Is right. There's all this courage that it takes simply to ask a woman on a date, right? You risk all this rejection, which, uh, for asking Catherine out, I'm thinking I have no chance at this.

There is. No way. She's going to say yes, but it's like the end of the semester and she might even transfer after the year. So as long as I just shoot my shot, I'll know that it's over and I can go hang out with my friends before we all leave town for the summer. And, uh, yeah, it turned out she said yes, which was, uh, Great.

And I'll be at surprising. And then she's like, well, I'd like to go out on a date with you again before you leave. Shall we go out again? Wow. So that went really well. Right. Like, yeah, there's a brave face to, uh, rejection, which is, uh, yeah, it's real. Projection hurts a lot, but then even once like there is, uh, a yes.

And then even a committed to like, let's exclusively date. Like, Boyfriend girlfriend kind of thing. It's still not like a stable relationship, right? Like you're exclusive, but there's ultimately like a freedom of like, ah, you can voluntarily choose to exit this relationship at any time. And that's terrible, right?

As, as somebody who's experienced divorce for like, ah, your parents just. opted to voluntarily separate the relationship at any time. And we're like going through breakups before my relationship with Catherine was, uh, difficult. Even like housemates, like moving out, like, ah, we've lived together for a year and now you've graduated and you're going off to like your new life, your new job.

Everything's great. Like, oh boy, what I just. Sit and cry over like my non romantic friend because it's just hard to deal with like we've grown in friendship now There's a separation that we just bring all these memories of difficulty and separation about that So right, so there's all that going on and to say what what that has to do with conflict is Anytime that like conflict is broached, you're thinking, Oh, is this the end?

Is this it? Has it, has it come to the final hour of hair? This is the impossible conflict that things cannot get solved and we're going to break up and there's nothing we can do about it. And it's just the divorce process all over again. Mom and dad can't get along. And you're to me, it just felt like my brain was just.

Set in stone that like, ah, there is another argument and it is the end and it is definitively the end and Right. I have to take time to think like, okay, we're gonna be okay. It doesn't have to be as doom and gloom as I think it's going to be and I can relax and I say this and I'm trying to be as true to myself as possible, but it's actually hard to remember.

I've been married for eight months and I've kind of like They're able to kind of flush these things down the toilet for the, for the most part, because I think about it all that often, and it's great. It's a good thing. Yeah, and it still takes a lot. The entering into conflict takes courage, and that, that isn't easy.

Um, and so I, I think. That's been something for both of us that's just been really huge is whether we chose to or not We grew in that ability to just to enter in and to face the fear So good now, I love that and now I think this is such an important topic because could it like you said well A dating breakup can feel like a divorce to people like us.

And we need to learn how to get through that obviously and see that it's actually not the same thing, but it can feel like it. And that's a really difficult thing when you're going through it. Um, so I think, yeah, seeing what conflict can look like in a healthy way is really beautiful. So I do want to stay here a little bit more if it's okay with you guys.

I, yeah, I'm curious, like the, Balance that you guys hit or you maybe you've seen in other marriages between directness and tactfulness. Cause I think sometimes those can be a little bit at odds where like you can be very direct and just kind of say what's on your mind and say what you're feeling. And in some relationships that's great.

Like that will work well. And other relationships like, no, no, no, you need to be a bit more tactful. You need to figure out the right way to say it. So just curious the balance between The, those two, not necessarily extremes, but those two kind of modes of communicating for you guys and what you've seen and maybe what advice you would offer to someone who's navigating that too.

Well, I'm definitely very confrontational. It's not necessarily like you can be confrontational and still be kind, right? So like, what does that mean? Is you, you address the thing that bothers you. And to the way that I do it, and it's not necessarily a guarantee. This is going to be like the thing that works well for you, uh, or that it's going to be received well by your spouse or boy girlfriend.

But again, like the, the EFT, the emotionally focused therapy, when you just speak about the way that you feel or that you receive something, right. That's primarily why you're hurt. You've received something, uh, whether it was meant to be received in that way or not. Received something. So here's the way that like, when you told me to do this task in this way, I felt belittled and explain if it was, um, a choice of language or the way it was spoken and, and, and confronting Catherine with that.

And. Giving her the, the chance to kind of answer for herself, not necessarily in like, um, police interrogation. Where were you and why did you do it? But just giving voice to like the, I feel hurt because of this. And then allowing Catherine to kind of play off that. How would you play off? Yeah. And emotionally focused therapy is the, what that book Hold Me Tight by Dr.

Sue Johnson is all about. You should get a sponsorship, Joanne. We're going to plug that one. Well, we might put some other things. There's, there's a lot that's going on. That's been helpful for us. Um, yeah, I think, um, remind me to come back to the point that you were making about playing off the, the confrontation, the thought that I was originally thinking is I tend to be very emotionally attuned.

Again, sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes that comes from reading a room and trying to make sure that I'm pleasing the people around me. Um, but there were many, many times when we were dating or engaged that I could tell Cody was shutting down. Uh, and I just wanted to keep digging, like, tell me what's wrong.

Explain to me why you're feeling like this. Usually out of a. I just realized that I didn't think about it enough. place of my own fear or insecurity that I needed to correct my behavior so that he would continue to care about me.

his particular mode of operating, um, that he does. Sometimes he just needs five minutes, um, to walk away and to examine his own, his own heart and his own thoughts and figure out what exactly he needs to communicate to me. So yeah, that, that was a big part of just learning that balance between directness and tact is that I didn't, I didn't need to keep asking why things were wrong.

I could trust, um, and I think that's part of it. It was growing in the trust that he would come to me and tell me what was wrong in that. the confrontational style. The direct style. It's not really confrontation. You tell me how you feel and why you feel hurt. Um, I think in responding to that, just the directness, the power of I'm sorry, and I forgive you.

That is something our society, um, Yeah, whether you come from a Christian background or a secular background or anything, how often do people say, I'm sorry? And I, I grew up in the Midwest where you, you say, I'm sorry when you like, you've been there. Yeah. Let me sneak right past you there. Like have actually said that to people as I'm walking through crowds, um, and feeling bad about, you know, they're actually in the way and this is not a me problem, but the power of just Right, whether or not I think I've wronged Cody, um, if he's expressing to me that he's hurt in some way, I need to apologize for that wrong and allow him to say the words, I forgive you.

Again, oftentimes our response to I'm sorry is like, oh, it's okay. No, it's not okay. There has been pain that has been caused and it goes both ways. Um, I, he also hurts me in addition to me hurting him. Um, but yeah, I think just like. Focusing in on that, coming back to a place of connection, that if he expresses, You said this thing in this way, and it hurt me, and this is what I'm experiencing.

Apologizing, returning to a place of connection, and then having a productive conversation of like, Oh, okay, so next time, what do we need to do differently? Was this just a, It's late, and I'm tired, and I'm sorry, and we can just move on? Or is there a pattern here that needs to be, So I can bring an attempt to all of those things.

Good stuff. No, I appreciate you guys going through that. There's so many lessons I just learned from you. Uh, one reminds me of something Layla Miller, the author who's written a lot about, you know, children of divorce and things like that. She said that she identified that people like us from broken families tend to think that conflict leads to permanent separation.

And so the, Logical, I guess, response to that would be to avoid at all costs. And, so, it's really helpful to hear that, no, not only can you actually navigate conflict in a healthy way, which is the goal, for everyone listening, the goal is not to avoid conflict. Usually that's a bad sign in a relationship.

It either means you're saints, or, you know, there's some other big problems underneath the surface that you need to address. Um, but really to make conflict healthy, that's the goal. And so even knowing that like can be mind blowing for people, I guess it's like, wow, conflict can be healthy. Like I never really saw what that looked like that.

That's one lesson. I think the other one too, is that you can get through it and love each other more. Even because of it, I would say, uh, which is kind of wild concept again, like, you know, being married for a bit, you kind of learn these things through trial and error often. Um, but, but yeah, I think for someone, especially who's, who's not at that point yet, it's, this might be pretty mind blowing for them.

So really good stuff. Another thing I wanted to touch on that you guys said was just the importance of trust and all of this. Like if you don't trust someone. It makes conflict really, really challenging. Uh, but if you do, I remember what, uh, the business author Pat Lungione said about trust. He said that, um, trust makes conflict the pursuit of truth.

Trust makes conflict the pursuit of truth, which I found so true. Instead of a battle of egos who are just trying to kind of get the upper hand and win the argument, you're truly debating like what is the best solution and the best course of action. For us as a team, as a couple, as a family, as a marriage.

Um, and so just a few lessons there that I love that you guys went through. Yeah. And I think Joey, you hit on just. That idea that, especially in marriage, it's, it's a little bit different dating and engaged because those are still times when you figure out, is this a person that I want to spend my life with?

But definitely in marriage, it's not about, it's never us versus each other. It's always about, um, I don't know, like, like the marriage itself is this third person and that needs to be preserved above any ego that either Khalid or I have. Um, yeah. And, and maybe defining that as like the love that we have as a married couple needs to be preserved at all costs.

Um, because that, that's more important than what he thinks or I think in any given moment is the fact that we have chosen to commit to each other. I love that. And I remember some, uh, Jordan Peterson said, Cody, you probably remember this of just how, um, when you try to beat your spouse. And if you win, that kind of makes your spouse a loser.

And then it means you're married to a loser. And so it's like, like, you're not really winning in the end. If you like are succeeding at putting your spouse down, which can be difficult to remember in the midst of a conflict, because we get so emotional. I remember our marriage therapist. Um, telling us that when you're angry, when you're emotional, your IQ drops apparently by like 30 points.

And so for those of us with like average IQs, it puts us in the 70 range, which makes us basically like in the range of mental disability. So we're trying to resolve something when we're all like pent up and emotional, especially angry. You're not going to get anywhere with it. And so there's definitely some good tactics that we've learned.

Like one of them, since we're on the conflict topic was calling a time out. And this isn't like a perfect tactic, but we've found it helpful. And for those of you who've never heard of this, basically what you do is prior to any sort of conflict, you just. Agree upon a timeout period, like could be anywhere from 30 minutes to 24 hours.

And then in the midst of a conflict, when things get heated, when you can just say, I need a timeout. And then, you know, the person who calls the timeout would, you know, keep track of the time and then they would resume the conversation as well. And so that's just one little tactic too. But one thing I wanted to mention too, and I'd love to hear any other thoughts you guys have on conflict since we're here.

And I think people find this so valuable is that it's important to remember, like, it's a skill. For some reason, I at least never really thought of it as a skill. I kind of thought of it as like some natural, um, trying to find the right words, like something that's like naturally baked into your character, right?

A natural ability. Maybe, I don't know if that's the right word even, but, um, but basically something you're kind of like born with that you can't really learn. And so knowing that it's a skill, like something you can learn, you can get better at it. Um, I think it is really, really helpful. And on that note, the remembering that there's like different levels of competence.

Um, and the, there's the way I've heard it talked about is there's four levels of competence. There's unconscious competence or unconscious incompetence. I'm sorry. It's the first level. That's like the lowest level. That means like you're not really good at something. You don't really know how bad you are because you don't know what good looks like.

That's unconscious competence. One level up would be. Unconscious incompetence. Sorry. One level up would be, uh, conscious incompetence where like you have a frame of reference now, some sort of anchor, some sort of benchmark. You're like, okay, like I understand that I'm not really good at this, but I'm working to be better at this.

And then when you go one level up, you have, um, Uh, conscious competence, where you've actually gotten good at something, but you have to really focus to be good at it. You have to keep practicing. You have to really like hone that skill. Um, and then from there, you have, uh, unconscious competence, where you don't actually really need to think about it much more, because you've practiced it so much.

That you've gotten to this level, kind of like you mentioned before Cody, where you don't need to think about it. It's just natural. It's kind of baked into your character at that point. Like the virtue has been integrated into who you are. So I found that helpful really with any skill in life, but we can, I guess, apply it to this conflict, uh, skill as well.

No, I mean, I think it's really great way to put it. So the listener doesn't feel discouraged. Right. Um, How do I get from being, like, dating to married and having all this, uh, ability to resolve things and speak clearly to the person that I love? And, uh, I think not just thinking about it as a skill, but thinking about it as, like, another language.

Uh, because first and foremost, like, you can, uh, You can spend all the time you want studying it, but until someone else knows it to speak it with you, you're only playing with, you know, you're missing the other half, right? If the person you're trying to relate to an emulant who doesn't understand the way that you're trying to resolve the conflict or doesn't relate to it.

Have that template either right progress can be made but it's it's slower. It's harder Uh, you're speaking one language and they're trying to point to things and and then dragging around on their end, right? So I think uh, right choosing to read a book together and then we went to marriage counseling before we were married to Kind of help us get through some other Reconcile of both of us having other interior problems that were preventing us from being able to communicate clearly.

Yeah. That's so unique. Go ahead, Joey. And I want to go back into that in a second, but Kathryn, you first, but I love that you guys Even before, you know, you were married. That's so good. But yeah, I think to your point about growing in the competency, um, it was definitely something that we had to grow and we had to learn the same language, but it was also, uh, you're right.

A skill that can be practiced and. If you're not in, in a relationship of some kind, practicing it with roommates or friends, and it can be very small, um, and I think going into those episodes, uh, with, with the benefit of the doubt or assuming that when your roommate doesn't do their dishes, it's not because They were trying to be mean to you and they just really wanted to leave you with a sink full of dirty dishes.

It was maybe they had their own things going on and being able to approach that and say like, Hey roommate, I just noticed that you left your dishes in the sink last night. Just want to check in and make sure everything's okay. Um, make sure you weren't overwhelmed by life. Uh, and just like wanted to, to invite you to do them when you have time or like, if something was going on to do them for them and coming to that place of understanding.

Cause most times When people, uh, yeah, are called out in gentleness, they will respond well. Um, and I, I, I learned that and actually got to practice it a lot, living with three other women. Um, yeah, during my time as a missionary. And so just finding ways in life to practice that skill, whether that's in a dating relationship.

Or just with other people in your life, um, who you have. I, I think it's funny that you, you brought up the thing, um, where there's the saying that you shouldn't, you shouldn't attribute to malice what could be attributed to, uh, incompetence, right? And like, most of the time, people aren't trying to, To really do anything to you, uh, it's, it's a lot of times just out of someone else's own ignorance, right?

Even if they knew something went wrong, they weren't thinking about how it would affect you. Uh, they were too self obsessed. I think one example that just comes to mind recently is we're cleaning out a spare room that we've been using to store all the stuff that we couldn't find a nice new place for in the house.

And, um, this room is like a renovated garage on the side of the house. And we get mice out there. And so as I'm clinging to this box, it's just like full of mouse poop and chewed up stuff. And, uh, so I emptied the box out and I set it aside. Uh, I told my wife, oh, this box is full of mouse poop and stuff. So I'm going to throw out a lot of the.

Uh, fabrics and things that were in there because they're basically ruined now and they all smell and I don't want to wash them. Um, so I put the empty box into the side of the room. And a couple of hours later Kath was like, Ah, there are some loose things in the other room on the other side of the house and they need a box.

And so she goes off to the spare room, grabs the empty box that had all the mouse poop in it, right? Picks it up, takes it to their aunt's house, and puts all, um, I think it was stuff for the baby that's on the way, right? So it's putting all these gifts inside, and I'm like, Catherine, did you just put all of our nice new baby stuff into, like, the rat poop box?

And I got super mad, because I'm like, why would you do that, right? Like, that could have, like, diseases that could be, like, really bad for the baby, and it's just disgusting and gross, and I don't like dealing with all that, because I'm a, I'm not really a germaphobe, but, um Sometimes a little bit. Yeah, it just makes me angry to be sick.

Not that I'm afraid of it. So, whatever the Greek is for germ hater, uh, rather than germ fearful. So, I just get really mad, and it just dawns on me, like, actually, I think if Catherine knew that that was the box, and was in full awareness of that, she wouldn't have chosen to do that. Yeah. So I don't have to be mad at her like she intentionally picked up the poop box and put, you know, nice things inside of it because she just didn't know.

So all I can I should actually stop being mad at her. I should apologize for, for raising my voice like, why did you use this box? And, uh, just kind of move along, okay? Dude, I was mad. I had to go, I had to go, uh, like settle myself. Then I realized, like, I don't know, she just She didn't know what was happening, man.

My wife did not intentionally pick up a poopy box to slight me. Why would she do that? That benefits her in no way whatsoever either. Um, yeah. And perhaps that's something, um, like for someone who might be coming from, Either a broken family or just a family where there was a lot of manipulation, um, that maybe that's a pattern that they saw that there was intentionality behind it.

Um, but just to remember that for the most part, most people are not, trying to manipulate you or harm you in any way. Most people are choosing to live with a desire for your good. Um, especially people who have committed to love you in some way, whether that's friends or family or yeah, someone you're in a relationship with.

So just being attentive to that. No, I love that. Um, I'm curious, like that story, how did you guys resolve that? Or if you don't want to talk about that, any interesting, like recent situation where maybe there was some conflict and you guys were able to resolve it? Well, because I think as much as we're talking principles, it would be cool to kind of tie this together and see, okay, like, what does it look like actually to resolve, you know, a conflict.

So I'm just curious if you have a recent example of something where you maybe butted heads and there is a bit of conflict, but then you guys were able to resolve it. Well, what did that look like? Okay. I mean, with the boxing, of course, right, being the one I just thought of a moment ago, right, it was just like Ah, I realized that it wasn't intentional because why would that be?

Um, and then explaining my wife like I realized that this wasn't intentional because you are Silly enough to do something like that in hell like it was like, yes, I did not intend to do that like I'm so sorry for raising my voice at you and being upset with you. That was unnecessary. Will you please forgive me?

And we're very careful to use it like that. Will you forgive me? I forgive you language, right? Yeah. To roll it back further, you, you raised your voice and were like, and said something along the lines of, Did you use the, you weren't particularly PC about calling it the mouse poop box, but you did ask if I used that box.

And I was like, I didn't realize it was the box. I'll go change it out. And probably I, I did roll my eyes and wander back to the other room to grab a different box and then proceed to bend over and sort it probably being a little upset with you. Um, At, you know, like, this didn't seem like a big issue, but it clearly was, um, and then in that Cody taking, you know, a minute to reflect on his actions, realizing that it wasn't intentional, and therefore was in need of apology.

Um, and after that. Yeah, just like forgiving him and moving on because there are a lot of things, uh, I think that's one of the things I'm realizing about marriage is you could stay upset at your spouse pretty much every minute of every day because there's a lot that they do that's very annoying. Uh, and just realizing that if we choose to live in that place, we become bitter, upset, angry people.

And those aren't necessarily patterns that we want in our life. So choosing to move on. And I think the box has been thrown away. It probably should. Okay. Cool. No, I love that. And, and I think it's good to know that that's kind of a natural part of marriage. That's like, you know, kind of butting heads, rubbing up against each other the wrong way.

Maybe taking a little bit of a breather space, coming back together, resolving things like that. That's beautiful. That's what it can look like. And that's doable, right? As we were talking about, it's a skill, it's a virtue that you can acquire, you can practice, you can learn. You're going to mess up, you're going to go through those different levels of competence.

And then, if you work at it, in the end, you'll be good at it. And so, Yeah. I think this is really, really beautiful and helpful and encouraging, honestly, for, for so many people listening a couple, um, other tactics that come to mind too. I think it's so important within marriage to just learn to let the small things go.

Cause Catherine, like you just said, it's like there, you can nitpick anything and everything. And maybe depending on your personality, some people are so chilled. They like, don't really care. Other people are more, maybe, you know, nitpicky by nature. And so I think like, Remembering that, you know, you don't need to voice your opinion about everything.

That's at least my opinion. You can let the little things go. Like, talk about the important things, talk about what bothers you. And maybe this conflicts a little bit with what you guys learned, but this is just something that I learned from another psychologist. Um, and so for me, that's been really helpful, not just in marriage, but in other relationships too.

And the whole idea that, you know, you can't put out every fire if you do, you're going to be like exhausted. You're going to be like, not able to maintain any sort of like health and like peace in your life. And so the idea of like, sometimes you need to let small fires burn, let small fires burn. That's okay.

So I'm just curious if your opinion on it, if you'd want to disagree, feel free, not offended, um, But yeah, curious about that. And, uh, also curious if you guys like repeat back, uh, like in conflict, if you repeat back kind of what you hear the other person saying, and for that's a tactic too, in order to like, make sure you're really understanding what the, where they're going.

Yeah. Just to hit on what you said, Joey, I think part of it might be a personality thing. I totally agree. Letting the small things go. If we get upset about everything, yeah, we tend to be miserable people. I think also attentiveness, um, to who. We are as individuals. I know my particular pattern is I will let everything go, assume the benefit of the doubt and everything.

And then I never deal with conflict. And instead I'm stewing about the dirty dishes that my roommate has left. Um, yeah, then she's miserable for a while. I'm like, honey, what's wrong? And there's just this great big sigh. And. It's going to be like an hour of conversation that has to happen. Yeah. There was one time really recently that it was something, it was like a whole, I was, I was so upset with Cody for like a whole week or a couple of days.

And we like, it started, we started meeting to talk through it. Cause I was like, I'm just upset with you. I'm frustrated. I can't work. I can't work out what's wrong. Um, and then we sat down and again, I'm a slow processor. So it took me. You know, half an hour, an hour to communicate all of those things to him.

And by the time we got, and he listened to so well, you, you really are a great listener and to your point about using feedback where he'll respond and say, I'm hearing you say this, like, are we making sure, like, I'm still tracking with you? And by the time we got to the end of the discussion, I wasn't upset with him about anything.

It was that I needed to buy this particular baby product, and I just hadn't bought it yet, and that was causing me stress. And so he, the way to resolve that was actually, he made me take off my laptop and just like, hop on, The internet and buy what I needed and it was so funny because it's like I was so upset with him for like, I can't remember if it was days or something.

Yeah. There was this part of me that was like the whole, whole Sunday morning, like pre mass, go to church, come back from mass. And it's just like, why are you mad at me? Conversation goes on for at least an hour and a half and it's like, I need to shop. It's like, no, no, no, what's, what have I done? Like nothing.

You've done nothing. I just need to buy this thing. It's like, well, I'm not against you buying that. Like, have I told you that I don't want you to buy that? No, I just need to get it. The budget's tight. There you go.

So what have I done wrong? It's like nothing. So, anyway, being attentive to who I am, willing to take time to work through those things, right, and, and resolve conflict. Um, but realizing that I, by personality, will let things build up, and I found that that's very unhealthy. Um, so, listener, if, if that's you, where you tend to, um, Lump everything together and all of a sudden you're so frustrated at your spouse or your significant other or just a friend That you explode and then realize at the end of the day that it's actually nothing that they've done You've just let all the small things build up.

I encourage you to to take one small step, encourage, and just address whatever that small conflict is at the beginning. That the thing for me was probably he was driving over the speed limit or did something. I'm a backseat driver. So, so when Cody drives, uh, I clearly have control issues. And so if I had just addressed that right away, would we have gotten to a point?

Um, and, and it was good that we ended up. Getting to a point where I addressed the thing that I was actually stressed out about. Um, but had I addressed maybe moments along the way that could have been avoided good stuff. No, I appreciate you guys going through all that and I think that the what i'm learning from you is know yourself That's like the first principle, right?

Which I think is so important, like you said, Kevin, because yeah, if you are a person who lets like everything go, then you're going to just build up resentment. And resentment, what I've seen, can slowly just like poison your relationship. It's kind of like a, you know, an illness, like slowly silently eating away at your body.

And, and that's horrible. So yeah, that's not a good thing too. So I think there is that balance between knowing yourself and then, you know, being able to let small things go, but then also voicing something so it doesn't just build up and become this huge thing. Because yeah, I think so many marriages end up falling apart probably because, you know, they didn't communicate anything or the way in which they communicated didn't resolve anything.

So it was just this big thing under the surface that was just growing to become this mammoth of a, Problem. And then it's just like, well, where do we go from here? And it can, it can feel hopeless though. There is so much hope there. I've seen even horrible, rough marriages come back. Um, and so there is so much hope there, but guys, we've got to wrap up.

I just was curious to just quick questions for you, Cody. I remember you sharing the motto that Catherine, you alluded to earlier of like, just do it scared. I remember, I think you heard it on the podcast at some point. I'm just curious. Okay, well, I didn't come up with that. It was, it was, uh, Rory Vaden, just to set the record straight, is a business author who I learned that from, and so I'm glad I could pass that to you, but I can't take full credit from, but I'm so glad.

So I'm just curious, like, to someone listening right now who is paralyzed by fear, on that motto of do it scared, what would you say to them, especially if they're like holding back in relationships that are like, They could be really good and beautiful and healthy, but they're just afraid. Hell yeah, I don't really know what else to add beyond that, because it is so important to just face that fear, even though it is pretty paralyzing.

I've just experienced it kind of like, the lock up, the tenseness, right, just that, like anxiety enough to make you sweat. And just the willingness to go through with it and, uh, first and foremost, to see that it's like, really not all that bad. And your brain, right, is working very hard to protect you from the worst possible thing that could happen.

The good news is it's working way too hard. And it's probably not going to be that bad. And even if it is bad, right, you're going to feel so good after having just crossed that boundary. Because one, you can, you can look to yourself and say, Hey, look, I did it. Like it's capable. I can rise above the things that fear I feel.

And again, your brain is really good at trying to protect you from catastrophic things, which if you experience divorce or trauma in your life, Your brain is going to be very, very attuned to protecting you from terrible catastrophe. It just works way too hard. I would also say, from a scientific perspective, that is actually what your amygdala, your fear center, has been trained to do.

And right, that's a, if you encountered a black bear in the woods, your brain would tell you to run away. And that is a good fear response, and you want your brain to continue. Yeah. responding that way when we have a pattern either in our family of origins or in other situations, um, where our response to fear has always been to run away.

We've trained our brains to always run away. And the only way to untrain the brain is actually to go back in to acknowledge where we're feeling fear and then choose to take a step backwards. Um, there's a whole, um, Optimal Work is the business organization that's been doing a lot of taking this research on the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex and then applying it in a work setting.

Like, oh, if you get frustrated by a project or you don't want to have conflict with your manager or an employee or something, they're trying to take that science, um, and apply it, yeah, in a work setting. But it's, it's totally true in conflict, in marriage, in relationships. And I think to that point, my advice would just be learning to name the fear that saying out loud, whether you're a spiritual person and that's in prayer, or if it's just you standing in your room saying, I am afraid of, and working through that most of the time for us, for people, as they get to know themselves, it goes back to like, uh, I am afraid of being unloved or unchosen or unwanted or rejected or, or any of the lies that we can believe about ourselves.

And being able to name that fear is important first for us overcoming it. And then as you're in a relationship with someone, there have been numerous times where we were in conflict. And the thing that I actually need to do is say, I am afraid. That you won't love me or you will be upset with me because of X, Y, and Z.

And, and Cody being able to address that fear directly is then very important. Um, yeah, and so entering into that place of, of doing it scared. One, one really beautiful thing about Katherine's analogy of seeing the black bear and feeling afraid and then wanting to run away is what you're, Not supposed to do when encountering a black bear is run away.

You'll actually trigger their fear response, uh, and they'll chase you and possibly maul you. So you're, uh, if you encounter a black bear, uh, call to it. Signal to it that you're there and it'll probably leave you alone. And if it does decide to charge you, Countercharge yelling, running and screaming. I don't think this is legal or wilderness or black advice.

Uh, you do it instead, but it's, it's a, it really beautifully demonstrates that your brain wants you to do a thing that probably isn't helpful, right? Which is to catastrophize or to try to appease or do all these other things that you will think will get you out of the scenario in an easier, painless way.

When the reality is it needs to be addressed. You have to yell at the bear. You have to charge the bear. You have to deal with the bear, not run away from the bear. It's a good job at having a terrible memory of wilderness survival on really pretty, beautiful. The point being that your amygdala in response to actual dangerous situations will teach you to run away.

And that is a natural inborn trait. Um, maybe, maybe wolves. Wolves in the woods, as opposed to black bears, because Kony is right. There you go. Don't run from bears. Changed the analogy a little bit. Don't run from black bears. Even a grizzly bear can run like 40 miles per hour, like you're not, you can do like three.

Like they're going to be on you. Well, you might, you guys might have just saved a life right now. So thank you for all of that. And no, it's a, it's good stuff. And totally understand what you both are saying and um, men really, really helpful. I love to keep talking, but I know we're at the end of our time and just wanted to give you guys the final word.

Catherine, I'll go to you first and Cody if you want to add any advice, I'm curious, like we have people listening right now who they don't come from broken families, but they are maybe dating or engaged or perhaps even, you know, newly married. to someone who comes from a broken family, maybe married for a little bit while.

Um, just curious. Yeah. What advice or what lessons maybe Catherine, you've learned that you would like to pass along to like the younger you that's listening. So I'll give you guys the final word. And again, Cody, feel free to jump in as well. And thanks so much for coming on the show. I'm just really honored.

Absolutely, Jerry. It's been so fun to, to be here and to share our story, um, and share what, what little we can, uh, as we've learned in the first couple months of marriage and our, yeah, our whole preparation for that. Um, I think just recognizing that I, as someone who came from an intact family and had no close friends who really dealt with divorce, um, To be willing to acknowledge my own naivete or my own, like, lack of understanding what was actually coming, um, and I think that came up a lot in the wedding planning process.

I, I think I always just had this image that I was going to marry a man from a large family and we were just, and I was going to get to be a part of his family because that was something that was very important to me, um, and just the whole idea that there would be parents that were, We're not amiable with each other, even in divorce.

I think I always have this picture of like, oh, we still live in the same town and we talk to each other. Um, cause that had been my one experience of divorce with my cousins. Um, but I was just, I was maybe a little blindsided, um, just by some of the relationships navigating, especially wedding planning.

like inviting both mom and dad and wanting them to be there because it was an important day, but then how do we deal with step parents? What role do they play? What does that impact? And even now preparing for our first kid, like what do we, what do we call grandparents? Do they get special names? How does that work?

Um, and so just, you know, Being, I think reminding my younger self that just being honest with those places that I didn't know what was coming Um, and being willing just to yeah to to listen to you in those places Um, but also to be okay with challenging you Um, yeah, I have I have this vision for our family for all families that they would be a place of love of connection of opportunities for growth for both spouses and children and anyone else who gets to witness that family's life.

Um, and so, yeah, just reminding myself to, to listen to you in the things that you needed, especially wedding planning. I think that was a little stressful to do. Um, just having, planning a wedding twice. Um, yeah, we, we ended up postponing our wedding, um, a month or so before it was actually supposed to go through.

So, yes, which a third great episode could be all about that. Um, but just, yeah, navigating those relationships. And also holding on to the ideal, like never being willing to set aside that there is something different that we want for our family. And, and it's been so good even now to continue to remind Cody and myself of that, that we want to do things differently.

We don't want our marriage to end in divorce. We're willing to work at it. We're willing to invest a lot of time and money. I know counseling is expensive and that was something that we committed to and continue to commit. Um, and so being willing to invest, um, in those things that will help us be, yeah, the best Stosses that we can be.

Again, big thanks to Catherine Cody for coming on the show. I'm really excited for you guys. Congrats on your new baby. And, uh, yeah, I know you guys are going to be great parents. So excited to see you grow into that role. If you guys want more content like this, more practical tips on how to navigate conflict and even build a really healthy, beautiful marriage, either now or in the future, we have a free guide for you.

The problem I think that all of us face is that We all desire love, but if we're honest, when most of us aren't sure how to go about building and to make matters worse, we're often discouraged by the prevalence of divorce. And doing maybe fear that our own marriage will end that way, especially if we saw our parents marriage fall apart growing up.

And so in this practical guide for singles and for couples, we have for a roadmap for love, really simple, practical roadmap for love based on marriage research. Time tested couples and Christianity's wisdom. The guide contains seven practical tips to build a healthy relationship and even a divorce proof future marriage.

And so if you want the guide, just go to restored ministry. com slash marriage, or just click on the link in the show notes again, restored ministry. com slash marriage, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them.

Honestly, feel free to take 30 seconds now and just shoot him a message, uh, if you'd like. And in closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#117: Children & Parents Deserve Better Than Divorce | Jennifer Friesen

So many divorces happen because one spouse follows their desires at the expense of their vows. That happened in the family of my guest today. 

In this episode, we cover:

• How her family’s dysfunction led to struggles with gender and sexuality

• The beautiful transformation she’s experienced and even seen in her parents

• The biggest lie about getting divorced

• A new organization that’s fighting for children’s rights

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Follow Jenn’s Blog, Do Better Theology

Visit Them Before Us

Visit Dakota Lane Fitness

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So many divorces happen because one spouse chooses to follow their desires at the expense of their vows. And what follows in the family is often just devastation, both for the abandoned spouse and for the children. And that's what happened in the family of my guest today. And so we discuss all that.

Plus we talk about how we're Her family's dysfunction actually led to her struggling with her gender identity and sexuality. We touch on the beautiful transformation that she's seen in her own life and even the lives of her parents. We also talk about the biggest lie that people are told about getting divorced.

And finally, she shares about a new organization that's fighting for children's rights. Stay with us.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 117. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard a lot of great feedback.

One listener said this, they said, love your podcast. It's been very timely and helpful to me. Another said this, This is an excellent podcast. Highly recommend again. We're so happy that you found it helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota lane fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthier, maybe you've tried workout plans and meal plans that just didn't work for you.

Then listen up, this is for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach. Who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym Dakota builds, customize fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world and a safe.

An approachable environment, but what else makes Dakota different than the many, many fitness coaches out there? I want to mention just three things. One he's done it himself. He walks the walk. He doesn't just talk the talk. He's a very healthy ripped dude, but he's also a good virtuous man too. He's not just focused on making his body better and stronger, but The rest of his life as well.

Second thing, he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And, uh, from that experience and from his experience studying at Franciscan University of Steubenville, as well as the Augustine Institute, he developed this belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, like your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body, he said, we really do need to care for all of it, uh, so that we can become more virtuous and more free.

to love. And finally, I would say that Dakota's mission is not just to help you get strong, but really to help you experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating your body the way it was meant to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and also your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this Dakota Lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results his clients have achieved. Go to Dakota lane fitness. com or just click on the link in the show notes. Again, Dakota lane fitness. com or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Jennifer Friesen. Jen has worked in the nonprofit world since 2010, first with Youth with Special Needs, and then with the organization Them Before Us.

Currently, Jen works as the director of training and the host of the Them Before Us podcast at the organization Them Before Us. Personally, Jen advocates for the church to equip young people with a healthy and biblical view of sexuality, and she blogs at Do Better Theology on matters of sexuality, culture, and religion.

and politics. And if you couldn't tell already, this conversation does go into faith and talks about God a bit. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast knows that this isn't a strictly religious podcast. Wherever you're at, again, I'm happy you're here.

My challenge to you is this. If you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And with that, here's my conversation with Jen.

Jen, it's so good to have you on the show.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

I'm a big fan of what you guys are doing at, uh, them before us. And I know you do more than just that, but I really want to drill into your story and just hear all about it. Uh, starting out, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? I think I was about 17. So probably later than a lot of.

Folks, but I'm, I'm thankful for that in some ways. I mean, we can kind of get into it, but yeah, we're, my siblings were 16 probably. Okay. So there's a three or four of you. There's three of us. Sorry. So I have an older brother, younger sister. Yeah. Okay. That's good to know for context. Cause I know we have people come from different family sizes and yeah, I mean, we see the whole gamut.

Like we see people who are super young when their parents get divorced or kind of like me where I was like and then, um, other people who, you know, It happens later in life, even while they're in college, stuff like that. So yeah, totally, um, totally depends, but, uh, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing what, what happened?

Yeah. So I would say my parents had a medium conflict marriage. It wasn't a high conflict marriage. It wasn't violent. There was an addiction, things like that. I would say. My dad's life was kind of marked with if he wanted to do something, he was going to kind of go ahead and do it. This was his second marriage, which I didn't know at the time.

And so his life was just kind of characterized by, you know, if I see something new in front of me and I want to go that direction, I'm going to do it. So. He reconnected with someone that he had known from the past, you know, one thing led to the other and he decided to leave the marriage, but they had a decent amount of conflict my whole life, so my picture of male and, like, a dad and a mom, male and female, was kind of that, you know, men are just kind of grumpy, irritated, they get to do whatever they want to do, they're in complete control.

Women just have to do what they're told, do whatever to keep the peace. Um, and there wasn't a lot of affection between my parents. There wasn't a lot of connection in general. My mom was, was really great about taking the three of us kids out on adventures on the weekend or. Doing, she would take us to plays or museums, like find ways to do those things for free or, or cheap to give us a lot of cultural experiences.

And it just adventures around town. I just don't remember my dad being a part of any of that. And it was like, we were all relieved at some level if he wasn't around. But he was also the primary caregiver because he was a truck driver, so he was only gone a few days a week. My mom worked outside the home and then would homeschool us, like, in the evenings.

But so my primary caregiver is the one that I perceive as being highly irritable, doesn't really want us around, kind of aggressive toward us, and my The person I want most in my life is the person who's out of the home. I had a lot of anxiety, like, she's not going to come home. I, I thought, I think as a kid, I thought it was going to be like a car accident or a something like that.

I think as an adult, I can look back on that and say some moms just don't come home. You know, like some dads, it's too difficult. The marriage is too hard. Raising kids is too hard. And they just don't come home. Abandon their family. I think I was really scared. She would walk off and not come back to the situation.

So I had a lot of anxiety. It's been healing as an adult to think back and be like, wow, my mom always came back home and re entered into kind of a difficult situation. But, so that was kind of the dynamic of our, my parents marriage. And then, yeah, so they announced at a family dinner that my dad, because of this reconnection with this, old flame in a sense, um, was deciding to leave the family.

And so my mom made it clear she was willing to, wanted to work on it, figure it out. And he was not so. Okay. Thanks for sharing. And yeah, I'm so sorry for what you went through and it sounds like you were really attuned to kind of what was going on in the home. I know some people that kind of have an idea that something's off, but they don't really know the details cause he has the parents, you know, maybe keep it under wraps or whatever, but it sounds like you were, um, um, Kind of in tune with what was going on.

And, um, when did you find out? I'm curious about the second marriage. Was that something that came later in life or when, how old were you when you found that out? We, it was when my dad's dad was dying. So passing away or he had passed away, but we were all over in that other state and looking through different things at the house.

And so I was probably 13 or 13. So this was a few years before, and he showed us a picture of his, I didn't even recognize him, but it was with my mom, she was also there, and she showed, they showed a picture, and they're like, oh, this is your dad, and it's a wedding picture. And I was like, but that's not mom.

And my first question was like, is my older brother actually ours? But I said it in sort of a hopeful way, because he and I never got along, like my older brother and I always were at odds. So, our first, that was my first recollection that, oh, he'd been married before. I don't remember feeling strongly about it.

They didn't say what had happened. He had done the same thing, in essence, to his first wife. They didn't have any children. So, I didn't get any more details, but it was this very fascinating realization. So, your parents aren't, they're much more than you know them to be, you know. Oh, I hear you. And, uh, that makes sense.

I guess at this point in life, I'm curious, kind of drilling into this whole second marriage thing, um, have your feelings changed over time? Has that been kind of an impactful thing, or maybe not so much? So now my dad's been married and divorced three times, because he married the third woman, basically.

As an adult, I can look back and I see my parents with both More clarity and more grace clarity for things that were negative grace for things that were well grace for things that were negative as well But you know I do see my parents as all people are Dealing with whatever the tools they have in their toolbox from their parents marriage from that from how they were raised from their faith Background, whatever So, you know, someone who's been married and divorced three times, he's looking for something.

He wants something, whether it's thinking the next connection will be better than the one you already have at some level, or just being easily turned, your head being sort of easily turned to temptation, sexual temptation, things like that, whatever those things were. I think for sure it's, it's very impactful.

Um, my mom being the marriage that had children. It's kind of a convoluted story, but there was a, a different woman. There was an abortion. So, so I have like a half sibling that is that passed away, but we're the only children, you know, so that my dad has. So that's an interesting dynamic. So we sort of feel like you're the primary marriage and they were married for like 25 years.

So his longest marriage. And so there's so much investment and so much that I would say in my head, this was very worth keeping and fighting for. He only realizes this in hindsight. He, I would say if he could go back in time, he would a hundred percent change his behavior or have wanted to stay. I think that's one of his biggest regrets in life.

And I want to say too at the onset, I feel like I have a good relationship with my dad. And, um, I'm a Christian and our family, we were raised Christian. That's very important to us. I would say he really does demonstrate. Now more of, you know, what Christians call like fruit of, of someone who is living a Christian life.

It's kind of slow. It's kind of here and there, but it is kind of neat to say I see more of that now than I think I ever saw growing up. So I'm really thankful for that. So I feel like I'm kind of, it's kind of nice to be able to talk about my dad as sort of a past self. And, and, but to say it in the sense of I have forgiveness for him and I think he is trying to live in a way that's more faithful now, even with those mistakes in the past.

Yeah, no, I hear you and the grace and the transformation. Those are two words that come to mind when you share all that I love that you gave your parents grace because I think that's super important I think there is a temptation to fall into being very bitter Very angry holding on to unforgiveness when it comes to you know mistakes that our parents made and so it is helpful to see that Well, they're human and you can love them through that.

And at the same time, as I know you'd say, we can still say, well, the ways in which they hurt me or they neglected me, like that was wrong. That shouldn't have happened. But at the same time, like, no, I love my mom. I love my dad. And, uh, yeah, I wouldn't trade them for anything. Honestly, I wish things were different, but I love them.

And it's cool as well to see the transformation of my parents lives as well. And so that that's beautiful to hear. And I think that's hopeful too, because a lot of times what I've noticed in the young people that we work with is we worry a lot about our parents. Um, yeah. almost like disproportionately.

It's, it's some people from the outside looking in, they kind of see it as this odd thing. It's like, well, you have all these like wounds and problems associated with your family and your parents. Um, yet at the same time, you have this like deep concern and love for them. No, I'm not saying everyone feels this way, but I I've noticed that.

And so, um, we, we want, we want well for them. We want them to, even if there is some hurt, even if there is some unforgiveness, ultimately, I think we, we, we do want the best for them. Um, have you noticed that as well? And maybe people, you know, who come from broken families? Yeah, it does seem to reverse the parent child dynamic in some ways.

A lot of times, it seems like then the parent will choose one of the kids to start confiding in more. I don't think, I think my mom was pretty good about that, not doing that to us. We had a faithful church community that we were always a part of, even when my dad chose to leave. So I think she had people she could turn to that were appropriate to confide in and to share really hard things with.

Um, I've noticed like my dad doesn't have a ton of relationships, not super involved in church. And so it's. It's almost like he tries to talk to me like that in some ways, which is not my favorite thing. It's not, it's not like the role any kid wants to be in. And maybe that's harder if you're older, maybe because you're more the appropriate age where typically You're raised by your parents, and then you become an adult, and it can, it, it changes a little bit into more of a peer relationship.

You have more experiences, now you know what it's like to pay taxes, and you know, all the things your parents might have joked with you of, you know, when you pay taxes, then you can do this or that. It's like, well now I pay taxes, and I drive, and I know how to do all these things. And so it comes more of a like, a little bit more of a peer thing.

But I think that gets either accelerated or jolted in some weird way when there's a divorce because I don't even know how to explain why. I think my parents were pretty good about that though. Um, my, my mom did a good job of encouraging us to go stay connected to my dad. But it wasn't like, tell me everything your dad's doing.

I can't believe your dad did this or that. You know, she was not. Using us as an outlet for pain or her thoughts about him. And he wasn't doing that in reverse. So I am thankful they were both acting, remaining the parents in that situation, even though you feel a tension. And one of our parents was always alone for one of the holidays until my mom got remarried.

So that's very, my younger sister, very, it feels very stressed by that. Well, if we go here for this part of the holiday, this parent's going to be alone. But it's just hard. You feel really sad and bad for them. And some of it's like, this is the natural consequence. Even when we've forgiven each other and we get along great, we're not spending every holiday all together.

That's a consequence of what? Yeah. No. And I, I, every holiday I feel that like pit in my stomach when it comes to like, well, dad's alone now or mom's on this one and it's not an easy thing to go through. I agree. So yeah, no, I think, um, totally makes sense what you're saying about the, uh, I know psychologists call it like triangulation or, um, some people call it like spousification more like that.

Yeah. I think the way I've heard it explained and the way I try to talk about it is, you know, Mom and dad, like they have very real, like emotional needs and they're going through difficult things and they need someone there to confide in and all those things. And so the children often like, we're just there and we want to, we love them, we want to help them.

And so they end up, you know, talking to us, which, like you said, is just not the appropriate thing. Even I would argue as adults, like they need other people in their life who they can talk to the, uh, talk about with those things. So it didn't totally relate there, but, um. Another thing I just wanted to point to was like your mom's example, you know, even though things were imperfect, even though there was a, there was tension, it was a really difficult family marriage situation to live through.

There was something that stuck with you, like you said, of her example of like, showing up, you know, coming back, you know, hopefully working on it and things like that. And I think that, um, The narrative in our culture right now especially is to, yeah, just kind of stay married and be miserable in those situations or get divorced and be happy.

And I think that middle ground of, um, the third option of, you know, you could work on your marriage and heal it and it can be better. I know in every case that doesn't happen. Um, but even if not, you know, absent abuse and extreme things like that, um, It is such a beautiful thing to like stick at it, to keep trying.

'cause so often what we've seen is, and that, I know there's research on this too, that if you stay at it, you know, and you get the help that you need, your marriage can like transform. Mm-Hmm it can become better. Like, it's not just like this downhill slope. Right? Yeah. We definitely would disagree that there's only those two binary options.

You know, stay and be miserable. Leave and be happy. If those things are even completely true, because leaving the marriage, I think there's some stats to say, you know, people might feel an immediate sense of pleasure or it's better now. But like, for example, my dad's third marriage, the one he left my mom for, it lasted two years, which is about as long as, you know, The infatuation kind of new stage can last, you know, according to some people.

So I feel like I've seen this or heard this anecdotally quite a bit is people will leave to start the new thing. Well, a lot of those problems just come with you, but now you're leaving a trail of brokenness behind you, particularly for kids who a lot, you know, when we post, so I've done before us, when we post different.

Articles or quotes about divorce will inevitably get some comments that say my parents got divorced and I'm happier now. Maybe because they're indicating there was a high conflict marriage. My parents fought all the time so now I'm happier. Or they, they don't like one of those parents for their behaviors.

Addictive behaviors or abusive or whatever. And even if that is completely true, that's an outlier. And you could be happier that your parents in a high conflict marriage aren't there fighting all the time. But I always try to present the idea, what if your parents had done the hard work of Going to get counseling, going to get sober, separating for a time, if there's a safety issue or something, separating to make sure there's safety, and that parent getting the help they need, and then coming back and being healthy and happy.

Would that not have been better than your parents getting divorced? Can we at least say, you know, there's a ideal, and adults need to do a bunch of hard things. To, to fix a marriage that's breaking or broken, but we jump, I guess our culture jumps quickly to there's discomfort. This is really hard and it would be better for me.

Don't my kids want to see me happy? And then thinking that's a good excuse to bail on the marriage. And so I have some close people who really walked through some of that considering are we going to separate? Or not, you know, cause like we can't do it anymore. And, um, but the children was the biggest consideration, understanding what that would do to their kids was their biggest consideration to kind of stick it out and really try to find help and support.

And I'm so thankful that in this instance of someone I'm close to, there's been some positive moves. So I just appreciate, I'm like, wow, that person sticking it out. And again, people of faith praying and being hopeful and seeking help has helped their marriage now is going kind of on that upward trajectory versus just leaving.

Wow. Yeah. No, I love that. And you're right. It is presented as like this easy option that will lead to happiness, which isn't true. It's, it's really not, I guess it depends on how you define happiness. If it's a lack of, uh, you know, discomfort, then that's a really dangerous road to go down. Cause I don't think you can do anything meaningful and Have a satisfying life if you're trying to just avoid discomfort.

So yeah, um, man, so much. I want to comment on, but I love the question you asked. And it's so funny. We asked that exact same question as like, would you prefer your parents to have like, wouldn't it have been better if they just worked through things and healed the marriage? And I think for a lot of people that aren't anything, that's great.

possible. Um, but it is like, I've seen it as well. And there's so many stories that I'm aware of, of people who've, who've done even though if I, even if I don't know them personally, so really good stuff there. Yeah. There's some other things I wanted to go back to as well. Like the situation that you were describing in your family, again, like your mom's heroic example, working through things, your dad's kind of tendency to kind of go where his desires led.

And I think that, It hits at the core of what you guys do at Them Before Us of like elevating these adult, adult desires over the rights of children. And so since we're at this point in the conversation, I'm curious if you, um, yeah, I'm curious to hear maybe a little bit more about Them Before Us. I knew I was going to wait for till later, but I think that's so relevant right now with what we're talking about.

So yeah, what is the work that you guys do? And then we'll transition back into your story. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Them Before Us is a nonprofit, international nonprofit. We have a lot of connections all over the world. that wants to reframe all these conversations, all these controversial topics, marriage, family, third party reproduction, which includes things like sperm donation, egg donation, surrogacy, IVF.

We want to frame everything from the perspective of the rights of the child. So, for example, when we want to argue a public policy issue about should surrogacy be legal or not, we want Instead of us arguing along typical, maybe in the United States, um, you know, blue versus red politics or this is about religious freedom or this is about my religion says you shouldn't do it.

We say, let's consider the rights of the child if someone is using a surrogate. Okay, where did the embryo come from? Was it a sperm donor, egg donor? Well, that's a violation of a child's rights. Because if you're being, you know, Quote donated from sperm or egg. There's a good chance. You're never gonna know your mom or dad Creating motherless or fatherless children is a violation of that child's rights We have the right to know the two people we came from that's the best way for a child to thrive is not only to know The mother and father we came from, but be raised by them, married in the same home.

We know that's ideal for children up until two seconds ago, when it became culturally advantageous to not do that, you know, since culture decided, Hey, you know, we're kind of going to say whatever adults want to do is great. And now here's the science that proves what we want it to say. Well, we had decades of social science before that.

That said, fatherlessness is a big deal. It's not ideal if children need adoption. That means you lost something. You know, so anyway, any topic then, so if we talk about divorce, if we talk about what should, how should marriage be defined, we are trying to train people to ask that question first. Does this impact the rights of a child?

And that helps us frame our answers. And we've found a lot of success because it's really helping us stay away from religious disagreements. It's helping us a little bit, stay out of political disagreements, though, unfortunately, really only one side of the political spectrum in the United States. Is even open to conversations like this, which is the more conservative side, but it's, it's been very helpful because we're really trying to like, dig down to these most basic ideas, natural rights, biology.

This should inform our public policy and our law. And it's been very helpful because it really is, is undercutting a lot of the arguments about. You're a bigot or this is just about religion because we're saying, no, it's not. I'm just talking about the biology that this child has a mom and a dad and has rights.

Beautiful. I love that. And I know you guys do, um, work on public policy. You do a lot of different interviews and things like that. What else specifically do you guys offer? We're just finishing right now a small group curriculum for churches. So if you have a church community group, that kind of thing, we're going to have a workbook and seven sessions that people can walk through.

It'll go through each of our chapters. In our book, we'll talk about surrogacy. Here's what the data says. Here's the them before us argument, and then we'll connect it to scripture and the Christian ethic. So that's really exciting. We have a documentary that's being worked on. If you saw the, this is a woman or what is a woman documentary, um, it'll be similar in style, just in the sense of we're trying to boil it down again.

What is a child? Is it, is it a, just, it has rights. It's kind of a thing that can become a person one day and it'll eventually have rights when we say so. Or is it a human being with unique value and that has rights. And so we're going to have a lot of different interviews with experts and talk about what is a child.

We are developing a human resources package or basically a way to go to. an organization and say, here's how you should frame a child friendly human rights package. Or sorry, healthcare. What is HR stand for? Human resources package. Sorry, not human rights. HR. Nice. That's good. That's like a, um, It's kind of like both, right?

But so for example, these big companies are giving you money to go get an abortion out of state. We would say to a company, do not offer that. Offer an adoption credit. You know, offer, offer counsel. Offer if someone has an unexpected pregnancy. Offer, um, Different things they can do to, to write off the need for diapers or, you know, things that if they need marriage counseling, you should offer a credit for marriage counseling to your employees.

And I don't even know all the details of what's inside there because I'm not within the HR sphere, but it's basically the idea to present companies. Here's these alternatives. We're not helping people do. IVF and surrogacy and, and redefining infertility just to mean whoever, whenever. Because, you know, California has a bill that's redefining it.

So I'm a single woman under California's new bill. I can be considered infertile and get state benefits to go get a sperm donor, et cetera. So, or, you know, same sex couples can be redefined to be infertile. And this project would help companies not use those kinds of benefits that violate the rights of children, but frame benefits that are helping promote family marriages, And if you are truly infertile and cannot have children, here's the ways that you can go about helping a child, adopting, and things like that.

So good. Thanks for kind of breaking that down. And I know some people listening right now might feel like an objection to some of that. And I would just offer two things. One, Don't children deserve to be protected? Don't children deserve to be protected? I think so. And, um, if they do, like how so? And I think that's where the second question comes in of like, um, if you disagree with this stuff, why don't you hear them out?

Hear out them before us, listen to their podcast, check out their book, their resources and see, you might agree with, you know, 80 to 90 percent of it. Um, and then on those maybe 10 to 20 percent you don't agree, um, look into it. Like, I think it's intellectually honest to. Go into those areas where there is some disagreement, because I know these are hot topics.

I want to acknowledge that from the outset. And, uh, so, but I appreciate you going through all that and kind of transitioning from there back into your story, this whole theme of adults putting like their desires, their quote unquote, happiness over the rights of children, um, is something that happens all the time in various areas.

But of course, in this conversation, we're focusing on the area of like divorce and, you know, separation and broken families. Bye. One thing that, um, you made me think of before too, was, uh, John Eldridge, the author, he, um, talks about this, uh, phenomenon. I was just thinking of your dad's kind of tendency towards, you know, these flings and stuff.

Um, this phenomenon John Eldridge talks about of the woman with the golden hair, where, you know, you have someone, he just explained this experience where he would see these like blonde haired women, and he would feel like this pull on his heart of like, Oh, they're going to solve all my problems. They're going to take away all my pain.

They're going to bring me the, you know, the happiness that I deeply long for. Um, and he just goes into saying how it can be such a lie. And we're, I think so many of us, even if we're not at that level of like, Hey, I'm just going to leave my family and go run off for this woman. Um, we experienced that whether male or female, we experienced this like, Oh gosh, I think this thing will, will offer me all the happiness that I long for.

And you touched on this before. Well, but, um, I, that image has always. With Eldridge. And on that note, I'd love to hear if you have anything to add to that, but I also want to hear, um, just, yeah. How else the breakdown of your parents, marriage, your family, their ultimate divorce affected you. Yeah, I think.

Actually, that kind of idea, so seeking after, looking for something that will satisfy you, is ultimately why I was able to have so much forgiveness for my dad. So, part of growing up for me, I think a lot to do with the dynamic I saw of male and female. I had a lot of gender Confusion. I wouldn't say dysphoria because it wasn't like a diagnosable thing.

I just thought, I was a Christian as long as I could remember, as early as I could remember, but I had a thought, God made me wrong. Like there's a switch somewhere up in heaven, on off, girl boy, whoops, he did the wrong one. I'm in a girl's body for some reason. I just think, in a child's mind, You feel discomfort, or you feel a sense of here's the interests I like, or I prefer to wear this kind of clothing, I like to wear pants versus dresses, and still do, but you start to, you see these things very, it's very binary, well, my brother likes doing these things, and wears these kind of clothes I prefer, and he's a boy, and my sister wears these kind of, she was a lot more girly, and like dolls and all this stuff, And I prefer this way.

So I must have been made wrong and was probably supposed to be a boy. Well, what am I going to do with that? Nothing. I could really articulate as a kid. I think because of my parents, I mean, my mom's working 40 hours a week and homeschooling, and I'm sure my parents are stressed about money and they're figuring stuff out.

You think all of these things as an adult looking back, right? Adults. I have so many things there trying to figure out why my kid is throwing a fit because she doesn't want to wear the dress or the church shoes. I don't think was a thing in there that like, this is a deeper thing we should talk to her about.

There just wasn't a lot of those tools or those conversations that I know of. In the eighties and nineties, you know, versus now, I think there's a lot of pretty good resources for Christian parents or more conservative parents. If your kids are saying or experiencing some of these gender things, there's a little more tools to deal with.

I don't think my parents really had those tools or the time to, to, to know, to like go into it anyway. So I experienced some of that. I experienced. Felt same sex attraction. So toward my peers again, my perception of male is scary and control and You know kind of I want to avoid and then my perception of women makes sense to me What's that which makes sense to me like if that was all you knew about men Like why would you want to go that route right and my perception of women is I love my mom and I do not get enough time with her and I'm terrified she's going to leave or something's going to happen to her.

So a longing mother hunger. And so it kind of makes sense as you go through and then feeling the gender dysphoria kind of thing. Then you go through puberty and of course those broken misaligned, whatever thoughts start becoming sexualized. Right? So, okay. So that's stuff I'm dealing with without really talking to anyone in the nineties or early two thousands.

And then. Fast forward and I won't get too detailed, but I, I had a relationship with a woman that really just started out as an unhealthy friendship and then kind of progresses, but this is why I had so much grace for my dad. I did not wake up one day and think, you know what I'm going to do? Get into this relationship that's like secret, and I feel shame, and it's, it's It's not healthy in any way.

It's not healthy even if you thought being two women in a relationship was great. It still wasn't healthy for a lot of other reasons that a lot of relationships wouldn't be healthy. I didn't wake up one day and think I'm gonna wreck my life and do all this stuff, you know? It was a million little decisions.

Like you're saying that, that the golden hair, the appeal of something, I want this kind of love. I want feminine love and affection. And instead of going about it in appropriate ways and seeking appropriate mentorship and love and care, I'm going to go about it in a illegitimate way, I would say from the Christian perspective.

And when I sort of woke up to that and it's like, well, I don't want to be doing this anymore, but how do I get out of it? You know? And then it was a very difficult. hurtful process of getting out of that, confessing, kind of living openly with people. I was able to look back at my dad and say, he didn't wake up and think I'm going to wreck my 25 year marriage, ruin my kids lives, abandon everything I've, you know, we've done.

I'm, it was, it was decisions he made over time, little decisions. the golden haired person you turn your head and you start versus catching it in that moment and like in the christian perspective i've been hearing this a lot more and thinking about it like mortifying your sin the idea of like catching thoughts errant thoughts and different things that are not truthful um crucifying those thoughts and and repenting of and whatever before they get to these further stages, right?

Because by the time you're already, you've already done the thing, you're already in the relationship, and then you wake up, well now there's this trail, yeah, behind you of ruin. And that's why God, I think, tells us, you know, guard your heart, guard your mind, guard your thoughts, fill it up with the good things, fill it up with the truth, because we really are likely to just continue along down the path we're not supposed to go without even recognizing it, it feels like.

So my own sin and brokenness. And being, and doing what I did not want to do, a relationship that I should not have been in, gave me a lot of grace for my dad. And realizing, yeah, we get here because a million little mistakes and lack of repentance were sin. Not, you know, you wake up and I'm going to ruin everything today.

Yeah. Yeah. No one dreams of that. No one's like, okay, I'm going to, you know, build this marriage and this family, have kids. And then I'm like, you said, gonna leave it all. That's my dream. That's what I want in life. It's like, no, no one dreams of that. So no, it's really well put. And Yeah, I, um, no, your struggles make sense to me.

It makes sense that it led there. It makes sense that, um, yeah, everything, everything that you said. And I love the point about like mortification you said, um, which is if anyone's not familiar, it's like a Latin word, which means like basically to die to yourself, um, like to kill things, like you said, and, um, it's so powerful.

Like it leads to self mastery. It leads to you being more in control of yourself, which is. One of the steps of leading like a really meaningful life, uh, and, and even a really joyful, like happy life too. And so, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's been super helpful for me as well. Thank you for sharing so openly and thank you for talking through that.

And one, two resources I want to mention, and if anyone isn't, you know, maybe resonating with you and wants to know like, Oh man, I need some help in this area of like maybe gender dysphoria, um, or, you know, same sex attraction, whatever it might be, uh, Jason Everett is one of my mentors. He runs, um, An organization and he has a great book called male, female, other, um, and that's like basically a Christian guide on, um, wrestling with all these gender issues.

So it goes into a lot of the claims of gender theory and just kind of talks to those logically. And then it also, um, just has a lot of compassion and some guidance for people who do struggle with gender dysphoria. And then he has some other resources on his website, which we'll link to and the show notes, uh, related to, you know, navigating same sex attraction and things like that.

And then the other thing I was going to mention is. When it comes to the sexual, um, you know, temptations and things like that, like struggling with unwanted sexual behavior, we did a whole series on this topic called healing sexual brokenness. And so we'll link to that in the show notes, but I think if you go to our website, restored ministry.

com slash, um, I think it's sexual brokenness. We'll, we'll put this in the show notes, then you'll see all the episodes. We did a whole series with these awesome experts and different resources that will help you navigate through those. So just want to make sure you guys have all the help that you, you deserve.

Um, but Jen, I'm just curious, kind of, if there's anything else you wanted to add about different struggles you had that stemmed from the breakdown of your family before we transition into kind of the hopeful part of your story. Oh yeah. Yeah. I would just say. Yeah. I agree. We just need, that's why I think I'm passionate about wanting the church to have more of these resources, and again, I think you mentioned a bunch of great ones, but there's been so many things written in even the last five years.

years resources that didn't exist. Or I didn't, granted we didn't have the same access to the internet and ability to find, you know, youtube videos and stuff. We're just starting out when I was more of a preteen, so it wasn't that I could go Google different things, but I think parents being the first ones to talk to their children, about, Sexuality and what does it mean to be male?

And what does it mean to be female? And correcting a lot of those childish thoughts that we think, well, I like wearing pants, so God must've made me a girl on accident. It's like, no. And what's cool is I feel. I'm in my mid thirties now. I feel the most me I've ever felt the most comfortable in, in my body and who I am as a woman now.

So I would not go back to being 13 for anything in the world because, you know, every, but everyone experiences those changes during puberty and those feelings and the hormones and all these things. Right. And whatever the family and friend dynamics are, everyone is experiencing those. It's just that when you have.

confusion about gender and then sexuality i think it then can just get really mixed up where if someone is able to say someone a feeling comfortable to share it at all it feels dark and shameful when at least at the very very beginning a little kid thinking oh god made me a girl on accident it's not like sinful thinking it's just childish thinking because we don't understand who god is and that he doesn't make a mistake you're a male or female for good you Righteous reason both are made in God's image from the Christian perspective, but an adult to say, Oh, no, that's, that's not true.

You can like this interest, that interest, you can dress, you can dress in this color, that color, but God made you a girl on purpose. It's a good thing. Here's all the reasons that's so good. He made your brother a boy on purpose. Here's all the reasons that's so good. We need both. And then continually help correct thinking that is off.

In a way that's very cheerful, it's not scary, it's not shameful, but little kids need to understand. Oh, okay, yeah, I thought this weird thing about God, but my mom, or dad, told me. But God's actually like this. So now I know that's not true. God made me a girl on purpose. It's okay if I like playing sports.

And I, we don't, we, some of us don't have that from when we're little, we have it now, or at some level, you're responsible for doing it for yourself now, because we're an adult, like Paul in the Bible says, When I was a child, I thought and reasoned like a child, but now you're an adult. So you need to think and reason like an adult, right?

So I don't even know if that answers the question. No, no, no. So good. And that's super helpful. And one of the things you made me think of too, that I learned from Jason Everett, who wrote that book, Male, Female, Other, as he says that, uh, in our culture, we, Claim that a woman, for example, is like someone with a female personality and any body when the opposite is actually true.

It's a woman is someone with a female body and any personality, which can run the gamut, right? You know, people who are maybe a little bit more like traditional masculine traits or more, more of a leader, more like, you know, physically fit, like things like that, that you'd normally associate with a man.

Like a woman can totally, you know. Have those characteristics, have those qualities and still be like fully woman, fully feminine. And so, yeah, it's, uh, it's, there's so much confusion out there. So I'm glad you're shedding light. The work you guys are doing is awesome. And so glad we can, you know, give people some resources as well.

But I'm curious, um, just honing in a little bit more in relationships, whether it's dating relationships or friendships, how did, um, your, Yeah. Everything that happened in your family impact those. Uh, I, I was remembering this this morning. My mom made counseling available to us, like offered to pay for it and help us get there and things like that.

When, when the divorce happened, I think I was the only one who did it. My brother and sister just processed it in different ways. But so I went to counseling I personally have really benefited from Christian counseling. It was also something I could do for free at the college I went to, you know, cause there's like students, psychology students that are counseling you.

And, but I think beyond that, so counseling was very helpful. I think just to process and, and talk things out. And just like I said to you, okay, if my dad, if my experience, my dad this way and my mom this way, and then I feel these things. A counselor for me was the person who said that makes sense, which I had never sort of drawn lines and thought, I'm not crazy, I'm not some psycho broken person that feels this way, it would make sense that someone experiencing some of these things might feel a certain way, and Christian counseling doesn't leave you at all.

Okay, it makes sense that you feel that way, because Christian counseling, and especially myself, because I am a Christian, still wanted to know, well, is the way I feel and want to act righteous, unrighteous, healthy, or not healthy? And then I think that's what the Christian ethic helps you do. Okay, well, it makes sense that you feel this way, but then we need healing, repentance, and healing.

New patterns of thinking, etc. So we can move from unhealthy to healthy, right? It's not just saying, oh, you feel that way. Great. That's who you are. So that's very helpful. And then I'm so thankful not only for just women who mentored me. I've had a number of women, like women have been my bosses in the jobs I've worked at.

I've done Christian and non profit work for most of my career, but I've had mentors, close friends, people I really did feel I could share deep things with and you feel like it's very dark and shameful until you share them out loud to other people who feel Experience something similar or they can really understand how you feel and offer you prayer and biblical wisdom and just it's kind of the light thing.

Right? So things I feel dark and shameful and I don't tell anyone can fester and grow and it's like, you know, cancer inside of you versus when you are able to share things and shine light into dark places. You start feeling like you're not alone. You start feeling like you're not out of control. And so I'm really thankful for that.

I'm also really thankful for a lot of great marriages I've seen. So like one of my mentors, um, in a job I worked previously, her and her husband, We're just fun to be around. They weren't not traditional in the sense of her sort of deferring to his leadership on something or saying, Okay, well, I'm gonna go check with him to see about this or that scheduling or whatever.

Okay, there was definitely a notion that they were checking in on each other and they were going to be in agreement about something. It wasn't It wasn't like she was just doing whatever she wanted and he would go along with it, but it also wasn't what I perceived growing up, where they, the guy just gets to decide whatever he wants, doesn't care what the woman has to say at all.

I started being around people, men and women who are married, and having a very different picture of marriage than what I grew up with, a very positive picture, like genuine love, affection, caring for each other, serving each other. You know, men who are after a party where everybody's hanging out at the house where the bunch of the guys are the ones all doing the dishes and laughing and having fun and women are just hanging out on the couch and chatting, not even a thing where it's like talked about or the woman saying, can you please do the dishes?

That the husband deciding to do it and the guy friends just standing up and doing it. Things like that, that really start shaping your view of marriage away from just what you experienced growing up. I think is so important and I'm really thankful for. Beautiful. Yeah, so mentorship, close friends, and obviously a lot of my friends got married as well.

So then you're with your good friend. And their husband and their kids. And so that's a fun, cool picture too. You see the good and the bad you, I had one counselor that said, just because someone's marriage might be bad or having a hard time, doesn't mean the institution of marriage is bad. And I thought that was really good because yeah, everyone has difficulties or difficult seasons, but I still can honor and, you know, I still advocate for this institution as a good institution.

God honoring good for society kind of thing, even though I'm not married. So no, so good. Thanks for sharing all that. And everything you said sounds super helpful. And I've found so many of those things helpful in my own life. And I've heard that, uh, you know, from a lot of people who've who've been down through the experiences that you and I have been through.

I am curious when it comes to, yeah, just the transformation you experienced, you explained a little bit about this, but you know, you were kind of in this dark rough spot and now you're in a different spot. Uh, contrast that a little bit for us. I know your life isn't maybe perfect now, not no one's is, but, um, how is it different now than it was before?

How is it better? Yeah, I think growing up and, and feeling these feelings of gender stuff, same sex attraction, and not feeling like I had any place to go with it other than keeping it inside my mind. And I think a lot of building up, well, if I could just have this relationship with a woman, Then I probably would feel happy or maybe that is what I'm supposed to be doing or made for or whatever.

While my Christian ethic did, I would not say that or think that was true. In essence, I was wondering if that was true in my mind. Because it's all just kind of dark and locked up in there, which I think gave ground, you know, fertile ground for sin and desire, et cetera, to grow into a relationship. Then I find myself in with that woman that was not healthy and not good.

Okay, so all that getting Smashed apart and then confessing things to a bunch of people. Okay. So you thought this was just this friendship. Here's actually what was going on Here's all these ways I lied to you and was not being truthful. Here's all these things I think and feel I think it took a lot of the power away from it to be honest I definitely have never felt like it's this big thing.

It's like who I am I've never used any of the LGBT ways to like label myself. Like none of that has been meaningful to me. Rosaria Butterfield, if any of your listeners have heard of her or want to look her up, has been very influential in my thinking around sexuality, really great, uh, thinker and, uh, Author, and it's just been helpful because it, it makes it not as big of a thing.

Um, but at the same time, there is a sense of having to be on guard. Like you said, it's the, the golden hair lady. I think the, the problem is God really has to help heal the mother and the father wounds. For anybody, whatever combination that is, whatever it leads you to. Um, or we're going to get caught in those same patterns over and over again.

So for me now, it just means I'm a lot more upfront with people. And there's definitely a handful of people that know everything about me, where I can call them on the phone and say, can you pray for me? I feel this or I'm thinking this and that's really helpful, but and really necessary. Um, yeah, yeah, because if you don't have people that know you or check in on you, like I've had to give people permission to ask, will you ask me this question?

Will you ask me this question? Cause otherwise I don't want to answer that question. And most people won't think to ask it or it's uncomfortable to ask it because it feels nosy or like you're going to try to judge you or think you're doing something wrong. So there's been trusted people. I've said, here's all these ways I want you to check in on me.

And then. I, I blogged about some of these things and processed a lot at Do Better Theology. So it was interesting, it was kind of in response to this other group that was attacking my former business, my former non profit, because they were saying, this Christian business doesn't like LGBT people, won't let them be volunteers, won't let them be on staff, and they just did.

A few hundred posts condemning my, where I used to work. And so when I no longer worked there, I was like, okay, well, I'm going to respond to all these accusations, particularly about the work. But then I started sharing my own, you know, this is how I feel. This was my experience when I worked there. Here's the people I got to talk to.

And it's very powerful in a sense, because in our culture, your lived experience. Or whatever is very powerful. Like that's a powerful weapon culturally and even things working within them before us, we will get people who are very irritated with us because. Well, you're, you have no compassion for people who are infertile, you know, if you're saying there's ethical questions about these different things.

And it's like, I can respond and say, I don't know if I'm going to have children. It's different because I'm not married and trying and not able to have children. I haven't had miscarriages. I understand those things would be very painful and hard, but you're talking to someone who also doesn't know if she'll ever be able to have children.

So there is a different level, I think, of being able to talk to people because a lot of the maybe more manipulative tools. Are not there when it comes to arguing about sexuality and things like that. Yeah, i'm trembling now, but yeah, so I just feel like god has done a lot in this is good building up What does it mean to be a woman a typical woman a book by abigail dodds?

Highly recommend if anybody Listening has has felt any of these things particularly about what does it mean to be a woman? And it's like your point. She's you know, people will say well, how how am I a woman and a business owner? How am I a woman and a mechanic like what would what should I do? And she's like, you just are.

If you're a woman, that's how a woman fixes cars. It doesn't matter if you're, you know, I'm really aggressive as a businesswoman, or I'm really meek as a businesswoman, so should I act more like a man or more like a woman? She's like, you can't. You're a woman. And if you own a business, that's how a woman owns a business, you know, so it's, it's like you're saying, it's, you put the body and the biology first, and there's ways, of course, there's a few things in the Bible that says women should do or men should do specifically, but just because it says women You know, it might say women should be gentle over here.

Then it also says like elders are supposed to be gentle and not quarrelsome and different things. So just because it specifically says women should, there's the fruit of the spirit and all these kinds of things. It doesn't mean men also shouldn't do those things in a sense. Abigail Dodd says all of the Bible is for all of women, just like all of the Bible is for all of men.

And then there's some specific things that are great to take as well when it comes to being married. Women, wives should do this. Husbands should do this. Great. Good stuff. Thank you for going into all that and just sharing your, your story. And before we close here, I'm curious, um, If you were to talk to your parents, if they were maybe even listening right now, what would you want them to know?

What would you say? I would tell my parents. I love and appreciate them for the ways they did sacrifice for us growing up. I'm thankful they were married as long as they were. We had a lot of stability that if they had gotten divorced sooner, we would not have had. I can imagine boyfriends and girlfriends coming in and out.

Which house are we going to? Even just financially, the fact that they stayed together made it so we didn't, we never missed food on the table. We had family dinner every night. I, I can just see these positives and the stability that my parents gave particularly my mom, because she was willing to continue coming home.

And I have said this and would say that I forgive them for things they didn't do right, and that I understand and can have grace because of that. I also now know, even better, the older you get, the more of a sinner you know you are, and I can have compassion, like, we're only doing, we only, yeah, we have the tools that we have, and it's by God's grace that I'm as functional as I am, you know, I can't look back and say, I did all this, like, I'm great and fairly healthy and all these things, because I just figured it out, and you guys didn't figure it out, it's like, no, thankfully, I'm healthy.

My mom's influence in particular with, with faith, our church, people who mentored me, youth leaders, coaches, that's all God's grace to me. And so I can look back and just have compassion. My dad did not have all those same tools, but still he worked his job. He came home. He struggled a lot with mood and temperament and things like that.

But for the most part, we were safe and That's still adult sacrificing for you, you know, and so yeah, I'd want them to know I appreciate them for all the good things that I can see now, I forgive them for the things that were not ideal, and I think too, as an adult, I just want to make sure I'm taking responsibility for my own health and faithfulness, so as someone who's a Christian, I can't I can't say, well, I struggle with XYZ because you guys did this to me the rest of my life.

You know, at some level, I just need to say, well, what can I do to grow, to be healthier, to be more faithful? And so that's kind of where I've landed, I think, in my, you know, 30s. I spend a lot of the 20s going to counseling and trying to think through. What did you guys do to me? And then really you have to take responsibility.

And I've heard some people say you kind of have to parent yourself, but I would say from the Christian perspective, it's like allowing God, a perfect father, to help fill in those places that we're missing. And, and with Christian community and with the friends and families that you can surround yourself with.

Ask God to help fill in those missing spots and build, build you up in the ways that you feel like you're lacking. Yeah. No, I love it. Really good stuff. I, uh, Jen, thanks so much for sharing your story and for being so vulnerable again and, um, offering resources and things like that. If people want to follow you and find you online and, and then before us, how do they do that?

Yeah. So you can type in do better theology and I have a sub stack and an Instagram and then then before us. Really, you can type Them Before Us into any of the big social medias or into Google and you can find us. ThemBeforeUs. com is a great place to find kids stories. A lot of the, a lot of the difference with Them Before Us is we're highlighting the stories of the kids that have experienced these things because it's about them and their rights.

So I was from a surrogate, here's my story. So you can find all of that on ThemBeforeUs. com. You can follow Katie, who is our founder and president, who speaks on a lot of these topics. You'll find her. Um, what would you say to someone listening right now who feels stuck, who feels really broken because of, you know, everything they've been through and their family, their parents, marriage being a disaster, falling apart, maybe getting divorced?

Like what encouragement, what advice would you give to them in closing my biggest advice would be, um, To find someone to talk to so maybe I know Joey you guys have a lot of different resources for that for people to be able to connect with others, whether that's a faith community, whether that's, you know, Maybe someone in your family that's trusted to you, an aunt, an uncle, a grandparent, an older sibling, a good friend.

I would say find people to connect to and talk to about these things. We cannot process and do this alone. That's my primary thing. I think counseling is great, Christian counseling, but yeah, faith community and friendships that you can actually talk about hard things with people and And get a sense of compassion, not just get over it, but people who can talk through and listen to different things and encourage you, I think is number one.

Super grateful for Jen and all the good work that they're doing at Them Before Us. Go ahead and check them out. If you'd like, just search Them Before Us or you can find the link in the show notes. If you'd like to share your story with us, kind of like Jen did, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do it, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story Reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiological level.

It makes your brain healthier. Writing your story is actually healing as well. There has been so many studies that have found that people who write about these emotionally difficult events that they go through in their life end up being healthier, happier, less depressed, less anxious, and so on. Also sharing your story, not just writing it, not just thinking about it in a sharing your story with someone else who can receive it with empathy is also healing on a neurobiological level.

And then finally, if you were to share your story, because we're going to share it with thousands of people online, it's going to be able to help someone who's maybe going through something that you were going through and were able to overcome. And so if you want to share your story, the first step is just go to Restored Ministry.

And then the forum on that page will just guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and actually turn it into an anonymous blog article. And so if you want to do that, just go to restored ministry. com. Slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe, you know, someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. And all our resources are designed to help you heal. from the trauma you've endured and build virtues so you can break the cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone you know, just go to restoredministry.

com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, take like 30 seconds to just message them and say, Hey, I just listened to this podcast.

I thought you'd resonate with it given everything that you've been through. I hope it helps. Like honestly, you will be surprised. How much they'll be grateful for you just doing that simple act. So feel free to do that now if you'd like. In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#116: Divorce (on Restore the Glory Podcast)

Today we’re sharing a podcast where I was interviewed by two therapists, Dr. Bob Schuchts and Jake Khym, on their podcast, Restore the Glory. Joey especially opens up about his struggles in his relationship with God, plus they discuss:

• When we don’t face our wounds, we typically try to outrun them. 

• Since divorce is a wound of broken love, the antidote is authentic love.

• Why it’s so helpful to spend time with a couple who has a healthy marriage. 

Donate to Restored

Meet with Joey for Restored’s Donor Pitch

Visit Dakota Lane Fitness

Listen to the Restore the Glory podcast

Visit JPII Healing Center

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Adam Young’s Podcast: The Place We Find Ourselves

• Jay Stringer's Website

• Jason Evert's Website

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Today we're sharing with you guys a podcast episode in which I was interviewed by two therapists, Dr. Bob Schutz and Jake Kim on their awesome podcast called Restore the Glory. And in that conversation we especially talk about my struggles in my relationship with God. I open up a bit more than I usually do on this podcast in this interview that you're about to hear.

We also talk about things like when we don't face our wounds, we typically try to outrun them. Since divorce is a wound of broken love, naturally The antidote is authentic love. We also touch on how consuming great content about healing and trauma is really helpful and even healing in itself. Why it's so helpful to spend time with a couple that has a great marriage, a healthy marriage, especially if you didn't see that growing up.

And finally, we hit on how it's so tempting within marriage, whether you're married now or not, once you are married, it's so tempting within marriage to just close off your heart, to harden your heart, and obviously we talk about the antidote to that. So, lots of great stuff ahead. Stay with us.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host Joey Pontarelli, and this is episode 116. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota lane fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out, by eating healthy, or perhaps you've even tried to work out programs or meal plans that just didn't work for you.

Then listen up. This is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and even people who've never stepped foot in a gym at all. Dakota. builds these customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But what else makes Dakota different than the insane amount of fitness and health coaches out there? Three things. He's done it himself. He's a really healthy dude. He's absolutely ripped, and he's a good virtuous man, too. He doesn't just invest in his body, but in every area of his life, too, like his marriage and as a father.

And through studying to become a priest for a little while a few years ago, and his time at Franciscan University of Steubenville and the Augustine Institute, he developed The belief that to be fully human, to live a fully human life, really involves not just growing in one area of your life, such as your spiritual life, and neglecting the rest, like your body.

He says that we really need to care for our bodies and restore that body soul relationship so that each of us can have, uh, you know, more virtue, can build more virtue and be more free to love. And finally, Dakota's mission is really to lead people to experience the highest quality of life. through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

And so if you desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and even your life, Dakota can help you. One client said this, Dakota Lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better.

Look, no further. Dakota Lane is your man. If you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results his clients have achieved, just go to Dakota lane, fitness. com. You could even Google that Dakota lane fitness, or just click on the link in the show notes. With that, here is my interview on Restore the Glory podcast.

Welcome to Restore the Glory Podcast. My name is Jake Kim. Bob Schuetz And I'm Bob Schuetz. Jake Kim We're two Catholic therapists sharing what we've learned personally and professionally to help you on the journey of restoration.

Hey, Bob, good to see you once again. We just finished up our series on adoption. And now we're diving into another series that has impacted, I think, a lot of people. And we have a special guest with us. Bob, why don't you introduce our guest and if you want to say anything else about our topic, and then we'll get into it.

Yeah, I think there's a real connection between adoption and divorce in the sense that I think they both mirror the fall. Interesting. You know, it's like we're adopted children of the father, but we had a broken relationship, and same thing with divorce. It's like there's a covenant. It's shattered, and everybody's heart on the human side is shattered with it.

The person we have on today is somebody who's dedicated his life and career to helping people who have gone through divorce, particularly children of divorce, and I get to know, it's Joey Pontarelli, and, uh, Italian pronunciation of that is probably Pontarelli, huh? Something like that. I met Joey because he invited me to be on his podcast as a child of divorce.

I actually have been on a couple times. And just have always felt a kinship. Not only because of going through the same experience, but because of his heart for Jesus and just the way that he's just offered his, his own suffering and everything that he's gone through as a gift to the church. So, Joey, welcome and, uh, maybe you can add a few things about yourself, family life right now and all that.

Yeah, so honored to be here with you both and love the work that you do as, as you know, we've sent a lot of people your way through my ministry. I can't really top that introduction, especially the Italian. I love it. But I, yeah, no, I'm a Catholic man, husband, father, author, speaker, ministry leader, business leader.

I have a baby in heaven, a two year old daughter, and my wife and I are expecting another baby as well, which is super exciting. So we have to have many children. And in addition to that though, I went to Franciscan University, I know Jake and I share that in common, which I, I loved. And through there, I really got to see how beautiful and how effective different ministries can be at just helping people transform their lives and become saints.

And so that's what, you know, we'll get into later, but we're trying to help young people from broken families to, to do as well. Yeah. And your ministry name is similar to our podcast name, right? It's restored. Yep. Yeah, restored. The website is restored ministry.com. And uh, yeah, we help teenagers and young adults who come from divorce or broken families to, to heal and build virtues.

They can break that cycle in their own lives. Hmm. What an interesting ministry. Like, I used to work at a parish in Denver, Colorado, Littleton, to be technical, of St. Francis Cabrini. So, hey, any listeners that are there, shout out to St. Francis Cabrini in Littleton. And I remember doing the RCA, then now called OCI process, for people who are becoming Catholic.

And the dynamic of divorce, the reality of divorce, Came up a lot because it brought up this thing about divorce and remarriage and then people and annulments and all of that But beyond that something that I noticed it just moved me I remember one gentleman who was on our core team who was divorced talk about his experience and the Isolation he felt in our parish community, which was pretty well known for being good at doing community It's always struck me how he said, I wish there was ministry to those of us who are single now after being divorced and even annulled.

And it's just, it was like, he felt like he wore this scarlet letter. And walked around. He's like, I know this shouldn't have happened. I know, you know, it was like, and I just, man, I had a lot of compassion for him, but I didn't, I didn't know what to do. Right. This was way before being a therapist and even being a therapist, you know, in the community.

So I'm just grateful for the ministry that you do just to begin to start with, like, What are things that you notice, you know, statistically, we could go into all that stuff, but I think maybe in your story or in your ministry, how does divorce impact people? And then maybe we can get into how do we experience healing with it?

Yeah, no, great question. I'll start with the story of a woman who reached out to me not long ago. I call her Mary, she said that when she was a little girl, she would watch her parents fight all the time. Their marriage was a mess, and they really needed help, they needed healing, but they never got the help that they needed, and so the dysfunction just continued on for years.

Fast forward to when Mary was in high school, her mom approached her and she said, I want to divorce your dad. Mary didn't really know what to say to that, so she told her, I just want the fighting to stop. So her mom goes through with the divorce, which honestly, it seemed like a solution to a really bad, messy situation, but it just made things worse for Mary.

It was just one trauma on top of another, just added more pain into her life. And she told me that at that point, like, she didn't really act out. Up to that point, she didn't really act out. She held her pain inside, but that all changed when she went to college. She got into the party scene, she started drinking heavily, that led to dating the wrong guys.

She ended up marrying one of those guys who was a drug addict and an alcoholic, and their marriage was obviously a mess as well. Before long, they get pregnant. And because Mary was terrified that her baby was going to grow up in that dysfunction, that hell, she got an abortion, which obviously brought a ton more pain into her life.

And following that, she divorced her husband, repeating that cycle started by her parents, which is super common. Some studies say like two to three times more common if you come from a divorced family to get divorced yourself. And once the dust settled, she fell into a deep depression, still wrestles with some emotional issues today.

And whenever, you know, I think of her story, which I do think encapsulates this problem, I can't help but think like, what if, what if someone was there to just help her, to walk with her, to get her professional help, to teach her how to deal with her pain in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways, to show her what to look for in a spouse and how to build a healthy relationship.

I'm super convinced, I know that she would agree with me, that if she had that help, her life would not have become the tragedy that it did. And so, pretty dramatic story, but that really encapsulates the problem that we're trying to solve and the person that we're trying to help. But what I see again and again is that young people who come from broken families, from divorced families, separated families, or families with just a lot of dysfunction, They, you know, carry all these wounds, and in response to those wounds, they, you know, often develop bad habits and all these other problems, emotional problems, relationships, struggles, all these things.

And because they don't get the help that they deserve, because resources just are so few and far between, they just continue to perpetuate this pattern in their own lives. And then it just continues for generations. And so I think that at the root of the mess in our culture today, I mean, John Paul II said, you know, as the family goes, so goes the nation and so goes the whole world in which we live.

At the root of all of our problems, I'm convinced. is brokenness within our families. And so the idea is if we can begin to solve that, we can begin to solve all these other problems as well. So I'm happy to get into my story, but I'd love to hear if either of you have anything to add to that. What prompted my thinking after you said that was the second part of your ministry, which is you, you now work also with young people with sexual brokenness because you've seen such a correlation.

And, you know, I know you both, you and I have experienced that in our upbringing, you know, just what a mess my family was in after that, when you take Parent out of there, and there's just a open field for sexual brokenness as well that then perpetuates itself. You want to share some about that? Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Patrick Carnes is an expert on sexual compulsion and addiction, and he says that about 90 percent of people with a sexual addiction come from a broken family, essentially. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but that, when I heard that statistic through Jay Stringer, who's been on my podcast, love the guy, like so, so good.

When I heard that, I was like, my goodness, there's a clear connection here. And so a little bit about my story, which I'll tie into what you said, Dr. Bob. When I was about 11 years old, my parents separated and later divorced, and it just shattered my world. It brought a bunch of pain and problems into my life.

And I remember the day that my mom broke the news that dad would no longer be living with us. In fact, they were getting divorced. As an 11 year old kid, I didn't know what to do with that news, and so I just hid in the closet and, and cried, and sitting there in the closet, I couldn't have put it into words then, but I felt abandoned, I felt unwanted, I felt like I just wasn't good enough, and in the months and years that followed, I dealt with all sorts of pain and problems, I dealt with emotional problems, like I You know, anxiety, depression, loneliness, a lot of anger for me as a boy, I dealt with relationship struggles.

If someone would have told me all the ways in which my parents separation and divorce would impact my future relationships, everything from friendships to dating relationships and even my own marriage now, I probably would not have believed them. But it's so true. I remember, you know, I know you guys talk about kind of the vows we make, um, as a result of the, the wounds that we are inflicted upon us.

One of them for me was You know, I said I will never get married like if this is where if this is where marriage leads Why in the world would I want to put myself through that? and so that was my you know stands for the longest time and just a huge fear of love and Relationships and just feeling truly lost like I didn't know what a healthy marriage looked like I didn't know how to go about building that and so just a lot of struggles when it came to relationships and finally bad habits So get to your point.

Dr. Bob around the time when my parents split Buddy of mine, Schwarz, buddy of mine, introduced me to pornography. And, and that really became my, my drug of choice. And it snowballed into other sexual sins as well, which just brought a lot of shame and, and struggle into my life. And so it was, uh, in that brokenness, that messiness, that emptiness that would result, you know, in the moment it felt good, but afterwards I felt so miserable and empty.

And as a boy, I knew I wanted to be happy and porn wasn't making me happy. And so I needed to change. And two things really helped. One was. I heard Jason Everett speak. If you're not familiar to all the listeners, he's a chastity speaker and author who is just incredible at what he does and just super inspirational.

I took his advice, consumed his content, got porn out of my life, started living a pure life that helped a ton. Aside from that, I got new friends. The sports buddies I was hanging around with weren't good for me. These new friends were really joyful, happy people. And again, I wanted to be happy. And so whatever it is that they had, I wanted.

And it came to light that it was their Catholic faith. And so I started to just be like that. And I certainly faked it for a while. But I started to pray to build virtue, to learn my faith, and just seek out God's plan for my life. And that helped a ton too. But going into high school and into college too, I still felt broken.

And so I realize this principle that I think is true for all of us and that is, after sin, the thing that holds us back most from becoming the best version of ourselves is our untreated brokenness. And so I knew I needed heal, but I looked around for, for help, you know, and I was just shocked to find that there was really nothing practical and specific for a young person like me who came from a broken family.

And the reason it shocked me was because I looked at my siblings. I saw how they were struggling. I looked at close friends of mine who were going through their parents divorce, and I saw how they were struggling a lot of times in serious ways. And in the years that followed, I just started reading the research and just understanding this is a huge problem, but for some reason, no one's really doing anything about it.

And as a result, this group of people is being hugely neglected. And like I said before, they end up just repeating that pattern of, you know, trauma and brokenness then into vice. And then that traumatizes them more and then back into, you know, more brokenness. And I mean, you guys know this better than I do.

And so, yeah, the sexual component, I totally see a strong connection there. And it really was for me, just this way of numbing my pain, numbing my pain. And, um, there was some other components to it as well, but that was such a big thing for me. And I definitely see it in a lot of the, the young people that we work with.

And again, that, that statistic, like 90 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction come from a broken family is, is mind boggling. Joey, as you're talking, my mind's going all over the place and I want to, Roll with me here, Bob and Joey, I want to see if we can do a simple little task that I think would, for me, I think it would bless the audience.

I think this will work. So you guys are describing things. And as I'm hearing it, I'm going, you're labeling the anatomy of a wound, wounds, beliefs, and vows. And I'm wondering if we could just for a moment tag team here and just kind of throw on the table. What happens with divorce? This is the category we're in, and I just keep hearing the anatomy of a wound over and over, and yet I imagine it's nuanced for, you know, when you mentioned Mary and Joe yourself, Bob, I know your story, let me kick it off, and then maybe we can just label it so people can go, Oh, wow, I see the larger picture, because I feel like we're going to be touching on these elements throughout the conversation today.

So, If you would indulge me. So we have wound beliefs and vows and Bob, we talk about the seven deadly wounds and all those kinds of things. So I already heard separation and abandonment. Maybe those would be the same, but I'm thinking, of course, of course, that's part of the wound of divorce, Joey, you mentioned a vow and you labeled it really well.

I will never get married. And I just thought, yep. Wow. That is a strong dynamic. But when you link the idea that you just did of what JP2 says about the family and your vow, wildly, that simple vow seems to be going like to the heart of all of existence in a way. I will never get married says something cosmically, not just in your little world.

It's almost like saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't trust relationship. I don't think love works. It'll be let down, you know, I don't know what we would nuance there, but holy smokes, it starts to make a lot of sense about the impact of divorce. So let me throw it over to you guys. What do you guys see in the anatomy of a wound, wounds, beliefs, and vows with divorce, like maybe in your experience or in your ministry?

So Bob, how about we'll go you, then Joey, we'll go you, if that works. I was listening to you, Joey, and I could identify, I heard powerlessness. Yes. Can't do anything about this. And I heard rejection, what's wrong with me, that my dad wouldn't want to be here, or that my parents don't want to be married, which then becomes shame.

You know, so it's, I don't feel loved, and I, I take it in as shame. There's an element of hopelessness. I'll never have what I want. There's fear because I can't trust, you know, I can't trust love. So there's a wound of fear there. There's confusion. I don't understand. This doesn't make any sense to me. I think they're all there.

The beliefs become connected to that. I'm alone. I'm not loved. I can't do anything about it. And it's up to me to make it all better, which is where the vows come from. And it's interesting, Joey, your vow was the very opposite of mine, which is I will never get divorced, like my parents. Wow, yeah. I was going to get married, but I wasn't going to get divorced.

And I didn't, but my vow almost Kept me in fear about that for a long time until that was healed just to interject really quick with Joey before we go to you I think this was the point I was hoping for is because I've heard this a lot Oh, you know and my and you know, my parents got divorced when I was a kid, but you know that happens It's really common and then that and people just hop over this experience because it's common It's like You know, in our world, this is going to sound weird, but you know, everybody has their left leg amputated, you know, it's just normal.

It's just what happens. And so we all hop around in one leg. And so you go, oh, right, this is, but what, what if we were always supposed to have two legs, you know, and what's the impact of that? It's a silly example, but I'm like, holy smokes. And then. Do you guys had the exact opposite vow, but had the same experience?

That's fascinating to me. And I think this is my point to, to draw people in to go, man, okay, maybe I wasn't, didn't experience divorce, but whoa, you can have these experiences. I love what you said, Joy. After sin, untreated brokenness is the most important dynamic in life. And I'm going a important thing to address, man, is that ever.

True. We would argue, Bob, your sin and your brokenness are connected, which I'm sure Joey, you would have seen that as well. So Joey, jump in here with us. Like, what do you notice in the anatomy of a wound dynamics here? No, there's so much I want to say. Uh, first to touch on the vow that I made a little bit, Jake, you gave me insight here.

I didn't think of this before, but it's almost like I was saying, I will never love, or I will never be vulnerable. Yeah. You know, marriage was maybe the vehicle or the thing I was like attaching it to. But. I certainly saw that play out and especially in my teen years and even into being a young adult, you know, just kind of keeping people at arm's length.

I remember my first serious relationship, just get a little bit more tactile with how this played out. I remember just being terrified of letting her in, just like I remember going through a lot of anxiety around the time that we were dating and I just, I didn't even have the language first. to talk about.

I didn't even realize I think I was dealing with crippling anxieties, and that's maybe another topic for another time, how important it is to put our brokenness into words. But man, I just kept her at arm's length. I remember at one point we were like, maybe talking like once a week. It was really bad. And to me, that felt like all they could do.

I couldn't truly let people in because the fear underneath it all, and this goes back to like that. I don't know if it's a wound or a belief. Of just being unwanted like feeling unwanted like so much of my struggle with pornography was like I just wanted to feel wanted Yeah, but these other sexual sins too It's like I just had this feeling of even though it's fake and I kind of I knew it was fake I at least felt like I was wanted and so Underneath a lot of that or maybe the result of a lot of that was that I felt like a gift that wasn't worth giving In a lot of ways I was able to maybe like package the gift make the bow look pretty the wrapping paper But once someone got inside of it, I was like, they're not going to want to stay.

That they're going to see that there's not much here that's worth fighting for that's worth staying. And I would see that as like a direct extension of my parents separation and divorce. And so there's a lot there. I want to touch on the point, too, of kind of walking around with these undiagnosed wounds.

I think this problem of brokenness within our families is the biggest undiagnosed problem in our culture right now. And that might sound like I'm overstating it, but the U. S. Census says that every year there's over a million American children who go through their parents divorce. Wow. If you just take the 90s alone, that 10 year span, That's, you know, over 10 million children.

That's more people than the size of New York City than are populated in New York City. This is a massive, massive problem. And I think for a lot of us, it's so massive that we just kind of like turn a blind eye to it. We don't want to really talk about it. And so for young people or anyone who comes from, you know, a divorced family, so often they go through a few things.

One, the experience is so tumultuous and dramatic that they don't want to add more to the problem that they don't want to rock the boat. And so they just kind of deal with it themselves. They bury their wounds, they develop these unhealthy ways of coping and to them, it almost seems like, well, I'm just helping my parents in a sense.

Cause I'm not bringing up more problems. Another thing too, is like, you know, if you wear your sunglasses on your head for long enough. You're going to kind of forget that they're there. If you carry around a backpack for long enough, you kind of just feel like it's a part of you. It's similar with this.

It's like, yeah, my family is super broken, but it's always kind of been this way. And so I don't really even notice that it's there. And so those are a couple reasons. But I think the biggest overall is that as a culture, we don't see divorce as a problem. We see it as just like, like you guys said, this normal part of life.

And some people try to sugarcoat it, too, saying, well, your family hasn't ended, it's just changed, and now you have, you know, twice as many homes, and, you know, twice as many Christmas presents in two homes. And, I mean, we can talk about how damaging that is, but, as a culture, we've really made light of this problem, and as a result, We are even, the young people who go through this, we're even tempted to think, well, oh, it actually isn't a problem, my parents are happier, so I should be happier, even though I do feel hurt by it, and it was really difficult to go through, and I'm, you know, struggling with all these different things.

So, I know that's kind of a mouthful, but just a few things I felt like sharing, and we can go deeper into the anatomy of a woman, because you're right, there's so much there. Wow. Gosh, okay, I don't want to derail the conversation. So here's what I'm imagining. I'm imagining a person right now driving in their car, they come from a divorced family.

And they're going, what, what, you guys just pulled off the bandage that I've, like you said, a backpack, you know, I've been so used to this. I can imagine somebody being their mouths on the floor. Another person's just like, guys, stop, stop it. Like, stop over embellished. Like you make so much about whatever.

It's not that big of a deal. I think some other people are going, don't go there. Don't like, don't go there. How rude of you. Why I spell out those various dynamics is I'm inviting all of us to notice how we react to the various things that have impacted us. Usually, a strong reaction means there's a strong dynamic that's being touched on.

And it's indicative of this, like, oh gosh, this really mattered. So the point of all of this that we're saying is not to go, ha ha, you are broken. The point of it is to go, the The brokenness is real. How about let's be honest about it because we're, we're going to go here in a few minutes is, and what do we do about this?

How, how does one heal and recover and restore? Cause it's doom and gloom if we just label, yeah, it's awful. Should have never happened. You're pretty messed up because of it. Good, good. Go have a good life. Hope it all works out for you. Right. That's just like hopeless, you know, and obviously both of you having that's been your experience.

There's healing that can occur and fruit and God can do amazing things. I like that we're pressing in. Because it's honest. And this dynamic, take away divorce and put anything in there, the biggest temptation, again, you know, like you were saying, Joey, after sin, untreated brokenness are the things that, you know, are most important to address.

I don't know about you guys, but my sin and my brokenness are the two most common things I like to avoid, and I don't want to address, because they just expose stuff. They expose all kinds, like, Is God going to actually do anything? Do I actually believe that God is good? Is the cross effective? It just, it can get big, messy, quick.

So we cope, right? The potato chips and cookies go a long way to making somebody feel better, but they just, but they don't, you know, they leave you empty. As I'm trying to cushion some of this is to, I'm trying to be sensitive to the person out there who's going, uh, I didn't expect this when I flipped on a podcast about divorce because, oh yeah, my parents are divorced.

I wonder what these guys are going to say. I want to be sensitive to that, that it does impact and it's potentially impacting us more than we realize. And there's hope. Is there any more comments you guys want to make about the impact? And then I'd love us to shift over and start talking about how does, how does healing and the journey go?

And we can get into Joey, maybe what your ministry does and what you've seen. So Bob, any thoughts there about the impact before we go into the healing? Definitely. I think one of the things that happens when a wound is this big and this deep is denial. And I think that's part of what you're addressing.

And I was in pretty much denial for 20 years. in terms of the impact of my parents divorce on me. I was in my early 30s before it all came to a head, probably my late 20s before I started having an inkling. And, you know, I was not dysfunctional in a public sense. I was married, Had children, had a career, helping other people, didn't have any serious addictions or compulsions.

You know, I was functioning well, and so I thought I was fine. And yet, everything that Joey's saying was my experience too. It's just, I wasn't in touch with my experience. Maybe because I'm part German and Irish, and you were Italian, Joey, you had to start there. The denial of that was strong because the pain of that is strong, you know.

I started having anxiety later, and that anxiety was that surfacing, and it was the anxiety that led me to start to deal with it, because I thought I was fine, and I thought I was just there to help everybody else. Joey, turn it to you on that. Yeah, so good. I've never heard it said like that. Dr. Bob, that's, that's really insightful.

And a couple of things I would say, one, do you want to be well, you know, do you want to be whole? Like the question that Jesus asks, like echoes through centuries, right? And if you do, there's no way around dealing with the messy, ugly, dirty parts of ourselves, right? We have to go there. It's not easy. It's painful.

It's something that doesn't resolve itself immediately. It takes time, but there is freedom. There is a joy and a peace that are better than anything you've experienced waiting on the other side. And to me, that's worth fighting for. Is it hard? Is it difficult to hear? Absolutely. Do a lot of us deny it?

100%. But if you had cancer silently growing in your body, would you want to know that? I would. And then I want to do everything within my power and hopefully even things out of my power with God's grace. To heal that cancer and to, you know, restore health and wholeness. And so that would really be my challenge is like for anyone listening who's kind of thinking, well, yeah, my parents were divorced.

I saw some effects, but I'm good now. And maybe you are, maybe you're in a good spot and that's awesome. But I would challenge you there a little bit. Like, are there things that are hidden in your life that are, you know, really holding you back and keeping you from becoming the person that God wants you to be?

Because I've seen it left and right, like so many of us who come from broken families, and this is true for other ones as well, but so many of us, like, just play it safe in life. Like, we truly play it safe. And I've seen this with a lot, you know, I've done dozens of interviews in our podcast talking with young people from broken families.

And I see this trend, like, like we don't feel safe making risks, taking risks because we don't have the safety net to fall back on that people who come from functional, healthy families have. And so we go through life just like scratching the surface of our potential. And to me, that, that is a tragedy.

That is a tragedy. I, I forget who said the quote, um, maybe it was Thoreau who said, you know, most men, you know, go to their grave with their song still unsung. It's like, and maybe I'm butchering that quote. It's so sad that that's tragedy to me. And so, yes, if you want to put the past in the past, I get that.

But what about the present and the future? And I would challenge people and say that the key to unlocking like the joy, the happiness, the freedom that you long for. Lies in in the healing and building that virtue. And so I hope that's helpful. But yeah, I certainly can relate to some level of denial. And I think so much of healing comes down to connecting the dots.

You know, Dr Bobby, I've heard you through your books and podcasts and take you to just talk about this, like going back into our childhood. Some people may think it's just like this unhelpful thing that we shouldn't really ever talk about. But it really is. There's a purpose to it. It's not to get stuck in the past.

Yes. But once we connect those dots and say, wow, this addiction I'm struggling with, this compulsion, this unhealthy way I have of relating to people, this anger that just takes control of me in these situations, it's intimately connected to the breakdown in my family, to that trauma that I endured as a child.

And so if we want to, you know, resolve those things, we need to go back into the past. But it isn't easy. It's not. Hmm. Joey, something that I have started saying because I think it clicked for me and I think it clicked for other people is everybody's life actually makes a lot of sense. I have the utmost confidence to walk up to anyone and go, you make total sense.

Even in the most craziness of what they feel or experience, Oh, it makes sense if you're willing to connect the dots. If you're unwilling to connect the dots, it's craziness. But if you, if you're willing, Oh, it makes complete sense. And I think another thing that Joe, you're alluding to, which I just want to make explicit.

If there's no hope of transformation, I don't have much else other than denial or avoidance or addiction. Wow. That's the best option. And so, I think there's this hidden message that goes on in so many of our hearts and in the culture and in the world, which is, I actually don't think things actually change.

And because I believe that, I can't really say that out loud. Am I allowed to say that out loud? Or it's just assumed that isn't that the case? Cause look, the world doesn't change. It's just going to hell in a handbasket faster, faster every day. So if there's no transformation, porn makes sense. The remedy makes sense because I'm in so much pain.

I want to be loved and wanted. How can I do that? And trying to relate to. Someone else to be in an intimate relationship where maybe our sexual life is actually fulfilling and expressive of something good, true, and beautiful, that's too damn hard. I don't know how to do that. I don't want to do that. I don't know if I've said it like this, but Joey, what you're saying is inspiring me to just say, you know.

If we don't believe transformation's real, all of these idols make sense. They don't work, if we're willing to be honest, but they make sense. And so, I think something we're doing right now is we're at the threshold of transformation and healing. I'm hearing us say a couple things and then maybe we can keep walking into this space of what healing looks like.

Number one is, am I willing to be honest? About the reality of what's going on. And that sometimes is very hard because if I have no hope, I'm just setting myself up for more disappointment. That's silly. So step one, am I willing to be honest about my experience and what happened to me and how it impacted me?

And if that's okay, yes, I'm willing to be honest then. Now some people, uh, understandably go, Don't leave me here long, cause this is stinking hard and painful. Somebody come in and tell me what to do. How do I make this stuff get better and go away? So maybe we can take that next step with them. What happens next if I go, Okay.

I am broken. My parents divorce really rocked me. What now? Let me ask you, Joey, to make it personal, and just by identifying what Jake said. So, that attitude that you conveyed, Jake, was hopelessness. That's the wound of hopelessness, right? Things will never change. And so I'll just go to my addictions, right?

For you, Joey going to porn. But what happens is that becomes hopeless, more hopeless, right? I'm now not just bound up here in this pain, but I'm bound up in this addiction. So now I've increased the hopelessness and added a greater degree of my shame a hundred percent. I couldn't have said it better. So my solution has really become a deepening of the woundedness.

Hmm. And hopelessness that anything can change. So I'm going to give that to you, Joey, and talk about that in relation to Jake's question, which is, how does that shift? Where does the hope come from? Where does the freedom come from in your own life, you know, as you were in that place? Yeah, no, 100%. One thing I wanted to say first was, I think so often what happens is we've dug such a deep hole of vice because of our brokenness that we feel like it's hopeless to get out of that hole.

Yeah. And that's what, you know, we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Which I totally get, and I've certainly have felt that, you know, at different points in my life because I think when we go into new chapters in life are broken to surface in new ways, and I've heard Dr. Bobby talk about that a lot, and so I totally have felt that experience, whether it was, you know, as a 11 year old, 12 year old, 13 year old boy, Who is turning to lust as some sort of a, you know, pacifier for everything I was going through, a painkiller for everything I was going through.

And it just left me feeling completely miserable, even to the point, I don't talk about this as much, but even to the point where just like, I just wanted to die. Like I never was at a point where I was like, can I kill myself or anything like that? But I certainly did not want to live life the way it was going.

And so. Transitioning into kind of what you were saying, it truly was seeing people who were joyful, happy people that gave me hope that moved me from being hopeless that man, if life is going to feel like this all the time, why in the world do I even want to live like this is if relationships fall apart, even if they're good for a time, if I can't trust the people that I thought I could trust the most, then is life worth living?

And I know Fulton Sheen, like that, that was the title of his show, right? Life is worth living, which is beautiful. And so I think more than ever in our culture, we need to hear those and hear those stories of like hope. But before we get to that a little bit, I just wanted to say one thing. There's this powerful analogy.

I heard a woman. use when it came to outrunning her brokenness. I think it's a fascinating idea. She basically said that, you know, she would just really struggle to kind of face herself. I think that's the hardest person to face in our lives is ourselves and our past. And so she said what she would do is, it was almost like it was in water, imagine a, a lap pool, you know, your swimming laps and her brokenness was like her hair just kind of trailing behind her.

And as long as she didn't stop, it wouldn't catch up to her. If she kept moving, it would just be trailing behind her. But when she stopped, all that yuck, all the messiness, all the brokenness would just be, you know, surrounding her and her face. And I think that's so true for so many people. And Jake, to go back to the point that you were talking about with kind of people's reaction, I think that's part of the reason why we don't want to face this stuff, is we've figured out some way to kind of outrun it.

Um, but eventually one, it will catch up to you. I've seen that in my own life. And two, uh, you're made for more than that. Like there's a better life that's waiting for you. And so when it comes to transformation, the hope and healing, like it's so, there's so much hope. And I think one of the things that have been, has been the most hopeful for me, and then I want to hear what you guys have to say is.

Just my relationship with Jesus and it's come in different forms and there's been different seasons of it and certainly a lot of struggles I won't sugarcoat it at all Jake what you said like I've really had that conviction in my relationship with Jesus that He gets me like he understands why I sin in this way or that or why I've struggled with this or that It's not a surprise.

It doesn't scandalize him at all. When that came to me in prayer once, I was like, wow, okay. I feel like something about that made me feel so much more loved and gave me a lot of freedom to even walk away from things that I was struggling with. Cause it's like, okay, this isn't random. Like it makes sense.

Everyone makes sense. Like you said Jake. And so I think, um, for me, that was one of the pivotal points that God, God loves you where you're at. He loves you in all of your brokenness. In fact, you know, like, I think it was St. Faustina who said, like, basically, he loves you because of your brokenness. He loves you more.

He wants to come to you more and to rescue you. And so, that was really, that was one of the key things for me among a lot of other things which I know we're going to get into. One thing that comes up for me, this is a silly analogy, but I say this, uh, in various settings, which is how many people Have fallen in love with the McDonald's drive thru person.

And there's a point to the story, which is when we just want what we want, we go to places where we can just get what we want. And the giver of those things usually is transactional as opposed to a long term loving relationship. And so we often treat healing like a McDonald's drive thru. Maybe if we shift the analogy to a mechanic.

If I go to the mechanic and the mechanic's like, Yeah, I'm the best mechanic there ever was and I know exactly how to fix your car. Would you like to come in? Do you want to talk? Do you want to hang out? We're like, No, I just want you to fix it because I got stuff to do. Okay, yeah, okay. Then there becomes a tension.

Because if the mechanic wants relationship and we just want to drive away, now we have a dilemma. And I think something that is actually ironic is we think fixing the car is the ultimate solution instead of the relationship being the ultimate healing. And Bob, this is something that you say a lot, we say it a lot.

Love is actually what heals. And so one of the, I think, dilemmas that we can, we have to be careful about when we talk about healing is to go do these six steps. And then you're healed and that can be really misleading because it can lead to a transactional relationship with God and that will slow down the healing process because what he's ultimately after is us.

If you really, really like someone and you want to spend time with them, you're kind of like, man, if I do this, then they're just going to leave. And I know, one, that's not best with them, and two, I don't, that's not what I really want. Like, I, I want to be with you. Like, I like you. And so, as we get into healing, I know for me that's a big deal.

I struggle repeatedly with, just give me the steps, Jesus, stop playing the I love you game. I'm like, oh right, that's the point. What am I going to do in heaven? Am I going to like it there? Because, you know, it's only hanging out or whatever, you know, I'm undermining the theology of heaven for a moment. But I think the point I'm trying to get at is how we approach healing is a significant influence on the healing that might or might not occur.

And God is masterful. He's masterful where he knows maybe the tire is leaking air and yeah, he'll fix the windshield wiper so you can see, but he might not heal the tire at that moment. Because he knows you're going to circle back around and go, Well, my tire's broken. Yep, I, cause I wanted you to keep coming back.

You know, that's the point, is the bond, is the relationship. I would agree with you, wholeheartedly Joey, that relationship is the primary healing element and agent. If we lose sight of that, healing starts being diminished. I think it's the efficaciousness of these things that we do go down. It says it explicitly, I think, in James, like, what will you do if God answers your prayer?

I'm butchering the quote, like we will spend it on our passions and desires, James, he pushes right into that dynamic. And then he goes, and so God therefore doesn't do what you ask him to, because he knows you have ulterior motives and he's trying to purify the motive as well as heal the dynamic simultaneously.

And now we're like, whoa, you're doing way more than I signed up for. You actually. really want my transformation, not just my surface level feeling better. There are strategies and the three of us could list a ton of things. You need to do this, you know, dress this wound. You got to renounce this. You got to do that.

You need to go do some of that and this and that and all the techniques, but if it ultimately isn't at the service of relationship and love, there's going to be a big slowdown and kind of dynamic that I think Jesus would work with. But. It'll affect it. Bob, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, the wound is a wound of broken love.

So the healing can only come when the medicine reaches the wound. And so just what you were describing, Joey, and all of that, is here is a person who's not going to leave me, Jesus. That's confronting my fear. When I believe that he's going to be there, my heart still doesn't believe it yet. And so now I've got somebody to test it out with.

That's going to be stable to allow me to be afraid and not trust that he's going to really be there, and I can press that with him. Here is somebody who's going to look at me without shame. He's going to look at me without condemnation. But I have so much self condemnation. And so much shame inside of myself that I've got to bring that place of my heart to him constantly to have that result.

Here's somebody who's promising me redemption and hope and change and healing. This place in my heart doesn't believe that it's for me, that there is any hope. Look at all my history and look at all the things I've struggled with for so long. And so it's that collision, if you will, between true, powerful, Generous, merciful love and all these places of my heart that don't believe and don't trust and don't believe that I'm able to receive that are capable of it.

Wow. So good. I love how you put that. And one of the things, um, just tagging onto this whole conversation and the analogies we're using with kind of like wanting to stay where we're at and not really go deeper, there is comfort Stringer's awesome book, Unwanted, he says. One of the most maddening dimensions of your life when you're struggling with a sexual compulsion or addiction is your fight with freedom.

Truly you fight against freedom because there's comfort, there's pleasure in your misery. And I think like so many, all of us need to address that in our lives. It's like, yeah, we need to push through that. And I think like you're saying, we can't do that alone. We need Jesus. And so Father Mike Schmitz had this awesome, awesome quote that has stuck with me.

He said that, Sometimes, God's only response to our pain is His presence. Sometimes, God's only response to our pain is His presence. And if we're honest, for so many of us, like, yeah, that's not good enough. Yeah. Yeah, great, you know, take a look at what you're saying, Dr. Bob. Like, this is not enough. I wish you would just kind of come in, do the repair, and then just head out, and I'll be good.

And then I'll call you again if I need you to come back and do another repair, but otherwise, I'm good. But like he said, and be healed, Dr. Bob. I forget what expert you were quoting, but something along the lines of, um, you know, at the root of everyone, almost everyone maybe we should say is a deprivation or distortion of love.

And so the antidote, like you said, is love, is authentic love and starting first with God. And so that's always been something I've loved chewing on in prayer is like, sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. And the question, the follow up question is like, why isn't that enough for us?

Yeah, man. Wow. Can we for a moment for, I'm, I'm thinking maybe now of myself who's like, okay, okay, please just give me one practical. Can you please just give me one? Okay. So yes, we will, Jesus does this too. He's very kind. So the practical that we're saying right now to make it explicit is consistent time I call it the, the red phone to heaven.

Everybody uses that analogy, the red phone to heaven. My, my silly analogy is actually do you know who runs that service is AT& T. And here's what the AT& T stand for, attention, time and trust. What you're doing when you're going to be in prayer is you're giving God your attention. You're giving him quality time, and you're doing your best to trust him.

That's what we mean by being with God. So, chunk of time, attention, time, and trust, that's the red phone. There's the connection spot. And it might not be super, like, fireworks or whatever, but that's where the trust kicks in. And you're not distracted on your phone. You're giving him attention. And it's not for a second.

There's a little, there's some time that's there. All those things come together to make a nice connection. So. Beyond that, maybe we can circle around now and talk about what are some things that can help in the healing journey in addition and supplement to this primary relationship. And I'll share one for me that's been huge and then we can maybe go around and maybe we'll land the plane after that.

I would say for me, and Joey, maybe I'm stealing your thunder here, but I would say other people Other people have been a huge part of my healing journey because I can really struggle to see the face of God clearly. I'm excellent at seeing a distortion of him. And so I need people to help me see him clearly and help remind me of him to help purify my sight.

So in my own struggles in recovery, like I can just go through people who were the face of God for me at a particular time. Paul even says, I'm an ambassador for Christ. And if you understand what an ambassador is, it's I'm representing the authority of the country I come from and I bring his face and authority to this country.

So that's exactly what an ambassador is. And in some ways, we're all called to be ambassadors for Christ. And there are some people who have done that exceptionally well for me, and they were a huge part of my healing journey, and I put all those people together, and I call it my mosaic. Put all these little pictures, you know, of these people together and look at it with faith and trust, and I, there's the face of God.

Ah, they showed me his patience. Ah, they showed me his mercy. Wow, they showed me his humor. They showed me, there we go. Now, those interactions can be very healing in my, in my. distortions of God can be restored. Now my prayer makes more sense because, yeah, I'd spend 20 minutes with so and so. I love being in their presence.

Well, they're actually just a little glimmer of Jesus. So keep going there. Keep moving there. Bob, what would you say, like, if you were forced to kind of give a practical? B. Yeah, well, I met a couple of those people when I was in Denver. R. You did. B. And we took a picture for you. Those were your spiritual parents when you were living in Denver.

Right when I was going through all of my sexual addiction, they were a huge part of that. Yeah. I would say something that I'm not particularly good at, uh, it's taken me a long time to cultivate this, it's just being emotionally honest. And I think part of that is with security. You know, it's like when you come from a divorced family, there's a loss of security.

There's a loss of attention to your needs. So you're talking about the AT& T. There was nobody there to give attention. There's nobody there to give time. And there's nobody there that you could trust. And so in the absence of that, the emotions go underground. At least they did for me. And so being emotionally honest.

which is, this really hurts, or I feel alone, or I'm angry about this, you know, and bringing that both in my relationship with Jesus, but also in my relationship with other trusted people. And, you know, having prayer that isn't just formal prayer, but prayer that's coming from that place of my heart. It's still an ongoing struggle.

Can you go one step further? What would that look like, to pray with emotional honesty? I think it's in light of what we said. It's, Jesus, this place of my heart doesn't trust you. This part of me that was shattered. and left without any attention. I just want to be in control here. I just want to take care of myself here.

I don't, I don't want to open this up. I don't want to hurt like I hurt in that place of my heart. I don't want to trust you here, because if I trust you here, you're going to bring me into more suffering, and I don't want to suffer anymore, because I've suffered so much already. So it's easier just to trust myself rather than to trust you.

Even though I know you're good, doesn't feel very good to me to suffer more by opening my heart here. Let me ask you the question, Joey. I can imagine somebody going, that's not allowed. You're not allowed to be that honest with God. You're not allowed to say that stuff to Him. So, Joey, are we allowed to say that?

And then secondarily, what would your practical be? Not only are we allowed, I think that's what God wants us to say. It sounds blasphemous, right? It sounds like we're being disrespectful or something. But what I always come back to is Jesus knows our hearts. He knows what we're thinking. So we're not telling him something he doesn't know.

Father Mike Schmitz, again, said something like this. We're giving him something he doesn't have, which is our hearts. And so, yeah, I think we not only are allowed to, we should be honest with him because you both know so well that the foundation of any sort of intimacy is vulnerability. So we need to be vulnerable with Jesus.

And again, because he's God, he already knows it. So you're not really telling him anything new. So yeah, absolutely. I know it gets a little bit muddy when we maybe start casting blame on God, like theologically, that's maybe not intellectually correct, but I think he can handle that. That's what I always tell the young people that I mentor.

It's like, yeah, God can handle your anger. He can handle you maybe casting blame on him. He can handle all of that and just like bring him all of that. Cause what I say with young people is like, There's so many of them who will reach out to, you know, me and my ministry who just like want nothing to do with God because they see that, well, he didn't really do anything to help my family.

And that's something I had to wrestle with too, just picking up on what you said, Dr. Poblick. I had to really ask this question for years through a lot of prayer, a lot of spiritual instruction, a lot of adoration of like, God, where were you when my family was falling apart? Where were you? The answer did not come at once.

I wish it did. That would have been nice. I wish I could tell you guys this like really neat story, but it didn't. It was really over time where I heard him say, like, I was not just on the sidelines because what I felt was I felt like he was on the sidelines, just watching me get my teeth kicked in on the field.

And I was like, where in the world were you? And so what I heard is that, you know, I wasn't just sitting on the sidelines watching, like, You know, apathetically, I was right there in the midst of it with you. I was with that 11 year old Joey sitting in the closet, crying to saying like, I hate that this is happening.

It's not supposed to be this way. And so that's where, you know, like we said before, sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. That's what I've learned. And so. In those moments when we're tempted to push him away, we need to really hold on to him tight as opposed to just trying to be self sufficient, which is something that, in the young people that we work with, that fierce independence, Dr.

Bob, like you said, is something that I think all of us from broken families struggle with, because we've learned this lesson that I'm on my own. I have no one I can trust to fall back on. But when it comes to the practical, to tie this up, so um, It's kind of funny that you asked this question because my whole ministry is built around like making healing really tactical and practical.

There's three things that have really helped me. I'll try to like tie them up quickly. One is just like consuming great content when it comes to learning about trauma and healing, you guys being one of those sources. And so that, that's been really, really helpful. Like I've learned way more about myself and about my wounds and been able to heal and move forward in life because of that.

One of the tips that I learned from Adam Young, who runs the awesome podcast, The Place We Find Ourselves, he said, like, each of us have a story, right? Our lives are a story like a novel or a movie. And one of the things that you can do is just actively reflect on your story. And, you know, to think back to all the ways in which, you know, the people in your life, the ways in which you were harmed, especially what your relationship with your parents were like.

And he says that By actively reflecting on it, by, like, doing that act, whether it's writing it out or just thinking back, um, it's actually healing for your brain. Neurobiologists have found that, you know, if you look at your brain as, like, a big web, the act of reflecting on your story makes, increases neural connectivity, which makes your brain healthier, and thereby you.

healthier. And so that's one of the things that has always been really, really helpful for me. But yeah, consuming great content, um, is huge. The next one I would say is coaching. So this is by far, whether it's through a therapist who's trained to do that, a spiritual director who can help you navigate your spiritual life, or just a mentor, like probably mentors in my life have been the most helpful.

Um, I think of one who just loved me where I was at. An older man who, you know, married, has a family, and I was able to open up to him about so much of that I've been through, and he was able to just like, not be scandalized, not, you know, look down on me, but really just love me in the midst of it, and so that, that I would say, and so my challenge, I guess, for everyone out here is like, if you have no one like that who You can open up to seek them out, ask God for that too.

And it's possible they're already in your life. You just need to take that leap of saying like, Hey, I've always looked up to you. I'm going through some stuff in life right now. I'd love your advice. Would it be okay if I like grabbed coffee with you or something like that? Taking that little risk I think can, can go a long way.

And it has really, really paid me back in so many ways by being more forward and just doing it in a respectful, healthy with boundaries way, but, but kind of seeking that, that coaching. And so. Aside from that, um, we already touched on like relationships and community, but in relationships where people have been through what you've gone through, there's something just so helpful and healing about that.

When no one can relate to you, when no one really knows what you're going through, it's very isolating. Even if the people are great, they're not doing it. to hurt you. It's nothing they're doing wrong. It's just, they don't know what it's like to go through what you've been through. And so I would say that is, uh, that's been incredibly helpful for me as like the community.

Um, and especially my deep friendships have been so healing. So again, the content, consuming great content, coaching. So like mentors, spiritual director, therapist, and then also a community, just deep friendships that. That's what I would say. And I would say to everyone listening to if, um, you haven't really seen an example of what a healthy marriage and family look like, one of the clear patterns we've seen in our ministry is like, if you can just spend time in the presence of a healthy marriage and family, that will be so healing for you.

That has been for me. So very practical and tactical. Um, and I'm happy to go into that further if you want to. So hopefully that that helps. That's really good. Could you, just a little twist on that, can you describe both how your marriage has helped heal you and how your marriage has also brought out your woundedness at a deeper level?

Yeah, great question. I could talk about this for hours, but the quick version would be, my wife would say something early on that was really helpful. She would say, I'm not going anywhere. To me, that was almost like foreign, like, really? Like, are you sure? Because again, Dr. Robert, like we were talking before, so many of us just kind of have this belief that yeah, maybe love can be good for a season, but eventually it will crash and burn because that's what we saw with our parents.

And so I think just hearing that and knowing that and seeing evidence, proof again and again that that's not going to happen, um, you know, has, has been healing. When it comes to the struggles, oh my goodness, like there's so much there. But I think John Paul II said that the number one thing missing in marriages is tenderness and I have found that to be so true.

There's such a temptation in any intimate relationship, but especially within marriage, to harden your heart, to close yourself off from the other person, to not be vulnerable, to not show them your brokenness because you hurt each other. And that thing that you share May come up in an emotional argument and be used as a knife against you.

And so that's, I think, part of the reason why we kind of have these protection mechanisms. And so that, that's, I think some of the, um, struggles I've faced have been related to that, but overall, sometimes I felt like a bit handicapped when it comes to intimacy. I haven't studied this a lot, but there's this idea of intimacy aversion.

I guess it would go along with like an avoidant attachment style, which is what I have. And so I have to really, truly kind of work through that. And so that's been some of the main challenges. Those have been some of the main challenges for me when it comes to marriage, but there's, there's others as well.

And then how has marriage helped heal those places? I think, you know, seeing the consistency of my wife and seeing not just our love in itself can be this perfectly healing thing, but it actually can be a vehicle into going deeper in our relationship with God as well. Because I think, I think married love is, like you said, is actually like really beautifully healing.

And like I mentioned before, just hearing from my wife that she's not going anywhere that has been really healing. Seeing the consistency of like, okay, she keeps showing up. That has been really healing. And then, yeah, kind of how that can be a vehicle to bring those things to God. So, you know, just the feeling of like, this may be going a little bit of a different direction, but one of the things that have surfaced for me is that there were these wounds that I didn't even realize I had related to femininity.

And that has forced me to start addressing them. It's forced me to see, like, okay, are all women controlling? Are all women, you know, I did experience that with women in my life who were very controlling and overbearing and always nagging and things like that. Is that, you know, true for every woman?

Because in some sort of knee jerk reaction, I've gone through life thinking that that's the case. And so therefore reacted and built relationships with women with that in mind. And so, um, challenging that I think has, that's been a really healing part of marriage. Cause I, I don't think I would have fully realized that if I didn't, you know, have the marriage that I'm in now.

And so that's been, you know, kind of taking that deeper in my relationship with God, talking with my spiritual director and mentors. It is a beautiful thing. It's a painful thing, but I think it can lead us to, um, you know, a lot of, a lot of beautiful realizations, but not just realizations, like truly closing chapters in our lives and moving on.

And I think Jason Everett said that, you know, marriage and especially parenting, having kids can be like the sandpaper of sanctity. You can just like, it will, it hurts at times, but when you look back, it's, it's worth it. Yeah, that was one final question, was how have becoming a parent brought healing to you?

I'm gonna answer this in a way that might sound blasphemous, but it actually really challenged me at the start, because I, um, man, becoming a father, I thought I would, like, have this intimate, like, connection with God the Father, thinking, like, oh yeah, like, You know, now I get it. It actually brought a lot of anger and like disappointment for me because I was like, I don't actually think it's too hard to be, you know, a good father.

Like you absolutely have to put in the time and the attention. But it brought me to this place of this question of like, God, why don't you make your love for me more obvious? Because when I want my daughter to feel loved, I will do that in a number of ways. I'll spend time with her. I'll play with her.

I'll tell her that I love her. I'll tell her that she's beautiful. You know, I'll give her gifts, like all the love languages. And with God so often, it seems like it's so cryptic. And, and so I had to wrestle with that. Sister Miriam and I actually talked about this on an interview I did with her on my podcast.

And the, the ending of the story is basically that so often I was pushing God away and I wasn't allowing him to make his love obvious for me. And I had this like kind of crazy story where I was just really wrestling with this. I was in Denver. We were living in Denver at the time. I was on a walk with my daughter.

Uh, she was sleeping. I was listening to something on my phone and I'm a tech guy. I'm like in business and my phone just like oddly like malfunctioned and put on this song that I hadn't heard in years. Like it was like, again, I know tech, like this shouldn't happen. I was like, where in the world did this come from?

And, uh, it was like exactly what I needed to hear in that moment. It was almost like God was like speaking to me through this song. And so that was like really, really beautiful of him, you know, kind of being a little bold from what I understood of like saying, no, no, I'm here. I want to make my love more obvious for me, but you put up so many darn barriers that I can't really do that.

And so that's been one of the things, but to go beyond that. It's just been really, really beautiful to see that what was once super broken, my sexuality can become so beautiful and life giving and my daughter and our future children and our baby in heaven as well. It's like, wow, this is like, there's just, I can't even put it into words how beautiful it is to be like a dad and to just the amount of joy that she brings us.

Like it's, it's unbelievable. And so I think, um, That's been one of the things that's been so healing for me. And then also most of all, which are my whole ministry is geared towards this, is that we want to break that cycle of dysfunction and divorce in our lives. And so it's cool to be able to be on that path of, you know, I'm never, we'll stand up and say, I've made it.

Um, I'm certainly on that path, but, um, it's been cool to be able to see, like, I don't have to pass on the brokenness that was given to me. I can write a new story and I can see it in her eyes, like the light in her eyes, like just the joy in her eyes, like I've seen just being in like a healthy, functional family.

When we're operating in that place, it's just so, it's so beautiful and rewarding. So that's what keeps me going with this whole ministry is like trying to help young people to, to break that cycle and to build healthy relationships, strong marriages and holy families, and that's what's gonna transform our culture.

That's awesome. Joy, tell us where can people find you? Like websites and any social media that you have. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the opportunity. So, uh, restored ministry.com. Ministry is singular restored ministry.com is where you can find everything. We're on Instagram, TikTok, you know, YouTube at Restored Help on social so you can find us there.

But we have a number of resources. I'll just mention them briefly. And if you want more, go into the website to find them. We have a podcast called Restored Helping Children of Divorce. We bring experts on, you know, like yourselves to just talk about different pain points, problems that people like us face and offer solutions, really practical solutions to those.

We also bring people on to share their stories about, you know, what they've been through in their broken family, how that affected them and then what they did to deal with it and heal from it and move on in life as well. So that the podcast is our most popular resource. Aside from that, I have a book.

It's called, uh, It's Not Your Fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and the problems from your parents divorce. And so it's just 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges that we've identified through research and talking with a lot of young people that, that they face, young people from broken families face.

That book's on our website too. It's like, at this time, it's like 10 bucks on Amazon. We try to make it super affordable so people can. You know, give it to young people or use it themselves. We have some free courses on our website too. There are two hour courses. One is with a trauma therapist who's been treating trauma for 17 years.

And so we just talk about like, what is trauma? How does it affect you, your body, your mind, your relationships? Um, and what can you do to heal from it? I did a course as well for anyone listening who, um, you know, wants to help someone who comes from a broken family. We did a course on, uh, essentially it's a guide, there's like 10 main tips about what you can do, what you can say and do, and what you can, should not say and not do in order to help someone who comes from a broken family.

So any parents listening especially, I know I didn't make this shout out, it can be really heavy listening to everything that we've said, and you can feel kind of hopeless. But I just want to encourage you and say, you play a key pivotal role. Your children need you. Even if you've made mistakes, maybe the divorce shouldn't have happened.

Maybe it should have. I don't know your particular situation, but you've seen the devastation in your children's lives. Like, have hope. There was a study they did in Turkey on high school students, and they found that the kids who came from broken families, parents divorced, they were much more likely to experience loneliness, anxiety, depression.

If they had a good relationship with one or both parents, they were much less likely to experience loneliness, depression, and anxiety. And so you play a pivotal role. And so that course will be really, really helpful in knowing what to do and what to say. And so those are a few of our resources right now since, you know, we're recording around the holidays.

We have a guide, a free guide. It's um, on navigating the holidays. It's titled, Five tips to navigate, uh, the holidays in a broken family. And so it just gives some really practical advice on like what you can do around this time of the year to make the holidays less stressful and challenging. Cause they're just, it's difficult, it's complicated.

And so we give some pointers there as well. So yeah, those are the main items. We have some new stuff coming out in the new year, but I'll save that for later. So hopefully that's helpful. Oh, super helpful. Joey, you are a fantastic example of what the Lord can do with pain and woundedness. And it's almost like, I know this was your story, the Lord saying, and I'm going to work and love you through it so you can go back and love people right in the same places that you were hurt.

It just feels like a theme that the Lord does. So just, I want to affirm you for all the Stuff that you've worked through and gone through to bless a lot of people in this area. So that's awesome. We're super happy to have you on and we'll have links to all the stuff that we've been mentioning in the show notes from Jay Stringer and all the, you know, Jason Everett's work and Joey, all your stuff as well.

So thank you so much again for being with us and listeners. We hope this blessed you and we will talk to you all again soon. Always a pleasure to collaborate with Dr. Bob and Jake. Make sure to check out their awesome podcast, Restore the Glory and even the JPII Healing Center by clicking on the links in the show notes. And if you want to help this podcast, the restored podcast to grow, to, to build better resources and to reach more young people, help more young people who come from divorce and broken families.

My team and I would love to partner with you. A donor actually came to us recently and offered a 50, 000 matching gift. The deadline is March 15th. Again that's March 15th. It was a bit earlier, uh, but people actually asked if we can extend it and the donor approved that he said that was okay. So if you feel called.

Click on the link in the show notes so you can either meet with me or just make a donation yourself if this podcast has blessed you and you want to help us to reach again more young people from divorced and broken families so they can break the cycle. So donate today or schedule a meeting with me where I'd love to tell you more about the future plans that we have.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Honestly, take like 30 seconds now if you want to message them and say, hey, I had listened to this podcast. It really helped me. I thought it might help you too. In closing, always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And always remember the words of C. S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#115: The Antidote to a Life of Emptiness | Dr. Andrew & Sarah Swafford

It’s said that Henry David Thoreau once wrote, “Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.” Doesn’t that describe our culture? A culture that’s hooked on comfort and so void of meaning. 

But thankfully, Dr. Andrew and Sarah Swafford have a solution to that problem. In this episode, we discuss:

• What holds us back from lives and relationships full of meaning?

• What’s needed to live a life of meaning and happiness?

• How do we navigate the dating scene today?

• How can you heal your brokenness?

If you’ve ever felt that ache of wanting more from life, don’t miss this episode.

Buy the Book: Gift & Grit: How Heroic Virtue Can Change Your Life and Relationships

Donate to Restored

Meet with Joey for Restored’s Donor Pitch

Visit Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• The Swafford’s Website

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

There's a quote that's attributed to Henry David Thoreau that goes like this, Most men, most humans, live lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still inside them. Again, most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still inside them. Do you think that describes our culture?

I certainly do. I think it describes a culture that's so busy, so glued to our phones, so hooked on comfort and on things that really don't matter and so void of meaning. But thankfully, my guests today, Dr. Andrew and Sarah Swafford, Have a solution to that problem. We hit on questions in this episode, like what holds us back from living lives and relationships full of meaning what's needed to live a life and relationships that are full of meaning and happiness.

How do we navigate the dating scene today? They have a lot of great insight and advice there. How can you heal? Your brokenness. And then we also talk about the experience that so many of us feel of feeling like we're a gift that's not really worth giving or not worth keeping. We talked a little bit about what you can do about that.

And so if you've ever felt that ache of just wanting more in life, wanting better relationships and more meaningful life, make sure you don't miss this episode. Stay with us.

Welcome podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation, or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 115. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback.

One person left this review on Apple Podcasts. They said, five stars must listen. I'm not religious. So some ideas discussed here are new to me, yet I've gotten so much out of this podcast. I breathe easier. Listening to Joey discuss a lot of the common feelings, adult, children of divorce experience. Again, we're so happy that you found this podcast helpful and even healing.

We do it for you. And if you've found it, this podcast helpful, and if you want to help us to reach more young people who come from broken families, I wanted to tell you about this really exciting opportunity that we have a donor. generously offered a 50, 000 matching gift. You heard that right? A 50, 000 matching gift to help us grow this podcast and help us to grow the nonprofit behind this podcast.

And so the deadline for this is February 29. And so if you want to help us to again, grow the podcast, to build better resources for teenagers and adults who come from divorced and broken families, and just to help us get those resources into their hands. We'd be honored to partner with you. I'll tell you more at the end of this episode, but you can just click on the link in the show notes.

If you want to meet with me, I'd love to personally meet with you, uh, to tell you more about our plans and the resources that we have already built and plan to build in the future and how they've helped people. Um, or if you don't have time for that and you'd like to contribute, you can just click the link to donate as well.

Again, we'd be so honored to have you as a partner in this and just please know that we take your investment super seriously. And we will put it to the best possible use in helping young people from broken families to break the cycle. Today I'm joined by two amazing guests, Dr. Andrew and Sarah Swafford.

They're international speakers on dating, marriage, the moral and spiritual life, uh, St. John Paul II, and sacred scripture. They're the co hosts. of what we believe the beauty of the Catholic faith from Ascension. Sarah is also the author of the book Emotional Virtue, a guide to drama free relationships, and she's a contributor to Ascension's chosen program.

Andrew, Dr. Saufert, is a professor of theology at Benedictine College and a general editor of the Great Adventure Catholic Bible. He's also the co host of Ascension's Bible studies on Romans and Hebrews, and the author of several books, uh, both Andrew and Sarah live in Atchison, Kansas with their six children.

So, if you couldn't tell, like, obviously there's some talk in this episode about God and about faith, uh, if you don't believe in God. I'm so glad you're here. This podcast, this episode is not just for people who believe in God, it's for anyone. And so if you don't believe in God, my challenge for you would just be to listen with an open mind.

Even if you were to take out the God parts or skip them, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode. Before we get into the interview, I wanted to thank today's sponsor. This episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated. By working out, by eating healthy, or maybe you've tried a bunch of workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including all types of people. Moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot. In a gym, uh, what Dakota does, what he offers is he builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountabilities to make sure you actually do it.

And one on one coaching for people again, anywhere on the world. And he really offers a safe and approachable environment. I know it can be kind of intimidating if you're not in that whole fitness world to get started, but he's the man for the job. What else makes Dakota different than the insane amount of fitness and health coaches out there?

I want to highlight three things. One is that he's done it himself. He's ripped. He's very fit. He's very healthy. But he's not just like, you know, this buff guy. He's a good, virtuous man too. I know him personally. And he doesn't just invest in his body. in every area of his life, in his spiritual life, in his marriage, as a father, and so much more.

Another thing that makes him unique is he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. He didn't end up becoming a priest, but after he left seminary, he went on to Franciscan University of Steubenville. He went to the Augustine Institute. And while there, he developed this belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, like your spiritual life, and neglecting the rest, like your body.

He says that we really do need to care for it all. We need to care for our bodies and restore that body soul relationship so that each of us can become more free, more virtuous, and more free to love. And so Dakota's mission That the final thing I think that sets him apart from others is to really lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intense intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

And so if you desire that freedom, if you want that transformation, not just physically, but in every area of your life, Dakota can help you. One client of his said this Dakota Lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota.

This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further. Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what it is that Dakota offers and see the amazing transformations that his clients have achieved, just go to Dakota Lane Fitness.

Dakota Lane Fitness, or just click on the link in the show notes. With that, we're going to jump into our conversation, but Dr. and Sarah Swafford wanted me to say this before we get in there. They wanted me to say that everything that we talk about in a conversation, it might sound like it's really easy to do.

It's not. It's hard. It takes grit. It takes time. It's not something that you can like snap your fingers, uh, and get done. It's something that takes hard work and takes time, like I said. And so just please go into this conversation with that preface that, uh, it does take hard work. We're not trying to say that it's easy, even if we make it seem simple.

So with that, here's my conversation with this amazing couple.

Swoffords, welcome to the show. Hey, it's so great to be with you again. We're such fans of this podcast. Thank you for having us. Hey, we feel mutual. Like it's, it's the same love, the work you guys do and love you both. You guys are amazing. And thank you also for just the beautiful example of a marriage and a family that are healthy and functional and not perfect, I'm sure, but, uh, but it's really a beautiful example that I know.

We always say, don't look too close. And that's always our job, you know, it's like, Hey, we bad about eight for 10, but we hope the other 20 percent isn't in public when our kids lose their mind or things like that. Hey, eight for 10 is good. If a four for 10 in the MLB is a hall of famer. So that's pretty, pretty darn good.

There you go. Well, it's so good to have you. It's so good to talk about this new book that you guys put out. Um, I just hope everyone here can value from your wisdom and the content. And I wanted to start with. Why'd you write this book? I know writing a book is a labor of love. It's not an easy thing to do.

So what was the motivation behind it? Well, writing a book is a labor of love and writing it with your another person, you have to really like that person. No, I'm just kidding. We, we keep joking. We wrote a book and we're still married, so that, that has to be something, right? No, uh, no, no, no, no. We, um, we had a blast writing this book and it was actually.

I don't want to say that it was easy because it was not easy. The devil hated it. Um, but it was definitely one of those books where we have been talking about this stuff and we have been praying through this stuff and we have been sharing the stuff that's in this book for years. And so it was almost like it.

Kind of like emotional virtue with my other book. It was kind of at a point where it was like this needs to go somewhere so that people can access it instead of just sitting around our, our, you know, island in our kitchen talking about these things. So it was more a process of how do we want to, you know, organize this thought?

How do we want to bottle something that is. so important to us and so many themes that we kept seeing come up, especially after the C word after COVID. Um, so it was very much a book that we felt like it was time to put all of this somewhere. So it was hard to write. Um, but it was also easy to write if that makes any sense.

I think we had eight different versions that we passed back and forth to each other. Um, so it, it morphed and changed and moved and was really a breathing, living document, if you will. And, uh, so we had a blast and it's been really fun for people to read it. Sometimes, uh, it's funny, our kids, we are, we have some high school boys, um, and they're like, They would write in the car, like in the column, you know, like, or in the margin, like mom said that dad said that.

And then we had a lot of people were like, I couldn't tell who said what. And so it was neat. I think the more, you know, as you, the more, if you know us pretty well, you're like, Oh yeah, I hear Dr. Swafford. I hear Sarah. I hear, I hear these people coming through. Beautiful. And I know a lot of it was based on your experience in Italy.

Would you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. I mean, it, it, it was fun to write. It kind of came out of us. It had been welling up for a long time. And, uh, so in 2018, um, I taught in our Florence program in spring of 2018 and we had 48 college students over there. And, you know, it was kind of, I mean, I, I've taught, this is, I think my 16th year.

I mean, so a long time, but you get to know them in the classroom and students, we got to know us in the classroom, but to live with them for three months, every meal together, traveling. Long bus trips got to really kind of get to know them at a deeper, deeper level. And, uh, it kind of, uh, it confirmed a lot of things we'd already kind of intuited and seen in our culture, especially you said post COVID that our culture often is like, we don't have a story, you know, we're searching for meaning and purpose and you know, who am I and all these great questions.

And. Uh, so the book, it's about relationships and we did a lot of relationship counseling while we were there, but it's, it's at a deeper level. It's also about meaning and purpose and kind of where is my life going and, and kind of, it, again, it had been brewing for a long time, but living life with these students.

And we had three marriages, for example, come out of that semester. None of those students were dating at the time. In fact, one was in a serious relationship with somebody else and like kind of a bad situation. I mean, so it was like, just like living life together. Um, and it's, so it's, the book kind of touches on a lot of things, uh, but I'd say the red thread again, it's, it's relationships, it's friendships, it's dating, it's, it's marriage, it's our walk with the Lord, it's putting that all in the context of like, what is our life about?

And I think for so many, life's a story with no plot, you give your life meaning. And part of what we long for is meaning that's received, right? And we're all looking for that. And, and, and believers or non believers alike, like we're looking for, you know, what is my life about? That's not something of my own making.

It's not hollow. Uh, it's, it's stable. It's objective. It's real. Uh, and I can kind of stake my life on it. Cause if you don't have that, your relationships really. They're not going to, you know, they're not going to go anywhere. They're not going to be the, I mean, when you're looking for your everything, you're, you know, for someone else to be your savior for someone, when you put all of your worth in what others think of you, or you, you know, everything you do is because someone told you, you should do it, or you feel like you have to do, you know, something like pick this vocation or pick this job or whatever.

Um, one of the things we say a lot is, you know, you, you really want to be cast in a divine play. Like you want, like you want to be given this like great role and you want to, and you want to do that well. And, you know, swath is summons a vocation. Like I'm here for a purpose that's bigger than me. It's a gift, you know?

And, and so I think that that, when people were really latching onto that, you know, like any main meaning that is self made is no meaning at all is something that swath says all the time. And I watch people's eyes get really big. Like. Oh shoot. Because I am, I, Sarah's Wobbard am a recovering perfectionist.

I'm a people pleaser. I'm a firstborn shout out to everybody out there. Who's the control freak and recovering. Um, but I, I really wanted to like manipulate my life. And one of the words that I have been loving, um, in counseling and through spiritual direction and just in my life is, you know, watching for those times when we're grasping and that we're grasping or that word manipulating or that word, you know.

I'll be happy if and when filling in those blanks where you're always feeling like you have to perform. I mean, we can do a whole podcast on just how love, especially from, from our Lord, but also love and a relationship, um, in a friendship or whatever, you know, when you know, and feel like it's a performance based love.

And you have to earn it or you have to deserve it or you have to like bend over backwards to keep it and you can't have any weaknesses and you can't have any failures and you have to be perfect. Like I'm exhausted talking about it. You know what I mean? Like it's just, but, but how many people live like that?

And so we really wanted to hit. In this book, we wanted to drill really down deep because you know, Swafford's we love talking about relationships. We love talking about dating marriage. We love talking about all the things, but if you take two people and put them in a relationship, if you don't get that, what is my life about?

What am I living for? What is my definition of love? If you don't get those core questions, if you're not asking those questions and you don't have definitions for those questions, um, then that's really, really, the word is it really isn't the big enough word. It will severely affect your relationships.

And I think we've all felt that, um, in a positive and a negative way in our lives. And so we really wanted to get at the heart of that question. Beautiful. Yeah. No, it's, it's shaky ground to stand on. If you don't have that deep reason to live, that's bigger than yourselves. And, and that's kind of the definition of meaning that I.

Again, from Viktor Frankl, um, And I found that super helpful. And so I'd love to talk with you more about that, but I do want to start with the problem. You guys already touched on this a little bit, but I'm curious, what are you seeing in the lives of the young people that you're leading? What barriers are holding them back from living lives and relationships that are full of meaning and joy?

Fear, I think is a big driver. I think people are. Um, they're afraid of letting go of certain things that might be familiar to them or patterns that are familiar or ways of coping that they've, they've developed over the years, but also like these images they have of themselves. They live in the shadows, right?

I mean, this is, this is who this group expects me to be. And so that group expects me to be, it's how my parents expect me to be. And some of that can be good, but some of it can be really debilitating. It's like, and there's a really, there's a, there's a need to take off the shackles of to be who we were made to be.

Um, and that deep kind of resonance that's authentic, it's, it's coming up from the groundswell, um, and to stop living in the shadows of all this fear of all these things on the outside. And then we we've seen myself, Sarah, I mean, and students that. Man, it's so liberating, but like, it's like so many things you have to, you know, a door's got to close before a new one opens and that's terrifying.

It's scary. So, you know, we, we, you know, I, I think like a sloth is like my favorite. Ah, that was exactly the word I was like, Oh yeah. Well, I think it's the vice for age. It's not just laziness. It's, it's a sadness at the difficulty of the good. It's like, I want to be great, but that looks too hard. And so I'm sad and you can't just like sit in that sadness.

So you've got to find outlets. Right. And so. It could be comfort food, it might be food, it might be pornography, drugs, sex, alcohol, something to kind of numb the pain or, or just kind of an entertainment, right? It might be the 24 hour news cycle, it might be kind of mindless scrolling on the phone, just something to kind of like sports news to kind of like numb the pain cause I don't want to be alone with my thoughts.

So I think part of it is I'm taking students through Augustus Confessions right now and at one point he's like, I finally, the Lord got me to look at myself. Like I wouldn't look at myself, my life, cause you know, I don't want to see myself. And a lot of people when they're not doing well, like they don't want to be alone with their thoughts.

They don't want to, they don't want to, you know, and part of it's like, come face to face with yourself, come face to face with who you really want to be and ask yourself like, are the decisions we're making, the people we're surrounding ourselves with, is that taking me toward or away from that? Uh, and it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's a long journey, but it's the same old stuff.

It's, I mean, things change. COVID changes things. But, you know, it's, it's the same things that have snared humanity throughout history. Yeah. You look for love in all the wrong places. You want to be seen, known, and heard. And we're thirsty for it, um, but it's easy to kind of fill up, um, you know, in, in dregs of, um, poison that won't fill us up.

But, We go back again and again and again. Well, one of the things that with sloth as he was speaking, I was like, it's a lot like a lot of people don't even Know that word or they think it means like laziness And I love when when swath explains it to the college students or you know We're like giving a talk or something.

He always says It's also, it's not laziness because it could be like the, I want to distract myself. I want to just like, it's hard. So I'm just going to roll over and die. And like, it's like New Year's resolutions. You're like, this sounds great. And then it's like January 6th. And you're like, just kidding.

You know what I mean? It's like, no, it's too hard. Um, but he always talks about how it's also, you could, you could be living in sloth and be like a workaholic. Like you're, you're just trying to mask. I see this in a lot of people's lives. Adult, young adult. I mean, almost kids too. Busy that drowns out that.

So that silence, you know, you might work in a, you know, a hard, you know, eight hour work week, but you're still struggling with sloth. Cause you're trying to distract yourself or even like, you know, you might not, it might not be work. It might be like worshiping at the altar, the mirror, you know, it's like, if I could just look a certain way, then I'll find my, you know, it's all the ifs and whens, you know?

So it's like, you know, just, and that's not just working out. It can be just like, again, the way I look, the way I present myself, I need to have all of these. You know, you know, check in all these boxes and I think social media has, I mean, this is like a whole nother conversation, but I think what used to be maybe 50 years ago, you know, you're walking down the, you know, you're walking down the hall in your school and you're like, man, my hair looks good today.

And like, man, I got a cute book bag or whatever. And whoever's in the hallway is like, you look so cute. Oh my gosh. I love it. Whatever, you know. Um, but now it's like this. Stage is so big and it's the world and it's, it's everyone in the world. And then on top of that. Um, I've been so intrigued with this whole, like, uh, Instagram, you know, people who aren't real people.

They're just AI generated people that, that have like, like that one chick with like the cute tennis skirt, you know, I can't remember what her name is, but it's like, she's flawless. She's beautiful. She has this great life and probably. 75 percent of people on Instagram don't know that she's a computer generated.

She's not real. And so these girls or guys or whatever, I mean, moms out there, those, you know, 40, 50 year old moms out there are trying to look really cute. And it's like, don't compete with what's not real. She is, she doesn't have pores. She doesn't have cellulite. Like these are, she is not human, you know, like, so I think it's just really good for everyone to take a step back and be like, okay, sloth, like.

I, you know, I'm, I can't be alone with my thoughts, but also like, what am I grasping for? What am I trying to achieve here that isn't really achievable? Do you know what I mean? There's just a lot of just like fake world stuff. That's difficult. People are truly comfortable in their own skin. Yeah. Wow. Truly at peace and rejoice in that.

Yeah, so good. We would all like to, right? And what a freedom. What a freedom when you even flirt with it. Amen. Like when you're even getting, I mean, when you're even like. Gosh, I feel comfortable with this person. What a win. What a victory. Just even if it's just one person Yeah, I think everyone listening can understand and know like you maybe only have a few people in your life That you can be your non manipulated self with And some people have zero and that's okay.

But I think, I think we were made for more. I think we were made for that kind of relationship. And the question is, what do we need to do to get that to, and that's what this book is about. Absolutely. This is a book about that. So good. No. And I think that the fakeness or the presentation of what we think will make us wanted, make us love, make us seen as you guys talk so clearly about in the book.

It leads to nowhere. It leads to the opposite. It leads to more emptiness. It leads to more misery. It leads to more grasping, like you're saying. And so I think it's such a refreshing message that the opposite, like being real, among other things, is like the antidote, like the solution, which I'm excited to get into.

But one of the things that I've noticed, I'd love to get your thoughts on this too, at the root of really all the problems in my life, and I've seen a lot in the young people that we're working with who come from broken families, is sin and brokenness. Sin and brokenness. Like fear comes at a point, like you guys said, you know, the comparison, like all that other stuff.

But I've seen at the root, root, root, sin, brokenness. the things I believe that after sin, the thing that holds us back the most from becoming the best version of ourselves is our untreated brokenness. I think that just leads to so many problems. And Dr. Bob Schutz and I were talking on his podcast recently, um, about this like really powerful analogy I heard on another podcast where this woman just had been through a lot of trauma in her life.

And she shared this Idea of like her in a swimming pool. She said like the brokenness was like her hair, you know Kind of carried behind her as she swam and if she could just outrun it if she could just keep moving It would never catch up with her. She would never feel it and man. How powerful is that?

I've felt that in my own life It's like we just try to outrun we try to add more noise. We try to add more distractions We try to add more comfort like you said, Dr. Schaffer Just outrun our brokenness because we're afraid that if we stop, then all that muck, all that dirt, all that brokenness will just envelop us and overwhelm us.

And so we just try to outrun it. That's beautiful. Afraid to see ourselves as we are. And we're afraid that someone else might see me as I am. Yeah. Yeah. And then being able to show the right people. You know, that is, is suffering and I've experienced that in my own life, especially with my mentors, you know, my spiritual director and, um, yeah, and friends and my spouse and all that stuff as well.

But man, how, how beautiful that can be. And, um, yeah, I think, you know, the scariest person to face is yourself. So with that, let's transition to the solution. What is the solution? What, what's needed to live that life of, of meaning and relationships filled with joy. Oh, it's so good. Oh, yeah. I, you know, I had a student ask me, uh, just recently, uh, it kind of came out of nowhere after class.

It's like, can prayer ever become selfish? And I, I still don't know exactly where this question was coming from, but I'm like, well, are you thinking in terms of like healing? Like is it too self centered? I mean, I think number one, like entering into the deep work of healing of going, because in prayer you get to know God better, but you get to know yourself better.

What's going on in my heart? What's brought me to this place? Like, That's not narcissistic. That's not selfish because the greatest act of charity you may ever, I mean, one of the greatest acts of charity you can do is enter into that healing work. Because as we all know, like if we don't, it's going to come out in other forms of dysfunction.

It's going to transfer to all of our other relationships. It's going to, it's going to inhibit our ability to really love and be present to others around us. So to me, the answer is relationship. It's with God. It's, it's going into those places that we're afraid to look. It's, it's being patient with ourselves.

We want this to be a quick fix, but it's often not. We didn't get there overnight. We're not gonna get out overnight, but then also simultaneously relationships with other people. We can have that love of God mediated to us. We can be seen and known and loved and understood and Affirm for who we are as we are as wonderful and great But also a work in project, uh, in progress and not perfect overnight.

And, uh, so to me that, that healing, it's not selfish. It's going to be one of the greatest acts of charity. Any one of us ever do. And our, our family tree, whether biological or spiritual, like. The people that cross our paths moving forward, that tree, that trajectory will be altered by whether or not we actually go deep with our own stuff and our own junk and actually enter that healing.

And if we don't, it'll be altered in a different way. So you can kind of, we're all like been thrown into this life. We've all had these like scars, good and bad, all these things. And we can just kind of keep passing that forward or we can like buck the trend. Like I know Joey, you know, you and I have talked about this and, uh, you know, we, we, we really want to raise our families in a way that's, I mean, we're grateful for what was given to us, but we also want to do some things we want to want to be some of what we didn't receive.

And I think of that as like, you're never divorced from your past, but. You can buck that. You can start a new line and it's not a brand new line, but like with Christ, he makes all things new and it's, it's, it's a new point. There's a before and after. And so the healing is not selfish. It will transform all those that cross your path moving forward.

Yeah. And I, I mean, as he's talking, he like, I just get excited. Cause I'm like, who doesn't want that? And who, I mean, and who doesn't have a. Bag over their shoulder of things that I mean, I don't care if you come from like a really great family And you get along with your family. You do not come out of that unscathed Like I have I come from a great family still wounded.

Um, I was bullied in seventh grade I had to switch schools So I was bullied from one school to another school in seventh grade and that wasn't necessarily my family My dad battled cancer at the same time. So like that was all hard, but it wasn't again. I come from a I come from a family of humans, which means I come from a tough family.

You know what I mean? Like, so I guess like, I just, I want everyone out there listening. Like this isn't just for all those people who have broken families or, Oh, these people, like it's kind of for everyone. And I think that's what we're seeing with the feedback from the book is. Oh, my gosh, I didn't even realize how much of of my past and the way I view myself and the way I'm, you know, struggling is affecting my current and my present.

I think that was just really big. I I've loved the feedback. And the reason a lot of people will be like. Wait, gift and grit, like why, why the title? And we, and we went back and forth and back and forth about what this should be called. And, and I said, I want something that we can explain quickly. And whenever I tell people what the book's about, I always say, here's the deal.

Like you are a gift, like you, your life is a gift. Like, I mean, everything you've been given, there's just the fact that you're here is such a gift. And the whole purpose of your life, the meaning of your life is to give your life away as a gift. But do you have the grit to do it? Because it is freaking gritty to give your life away.

And it is one of the grittiest things you'll ever do is to believe that you are a gift and to have the confidence to be able to say, I'm a gift. With all my mess, with all my trials, with all my mistakes, with all my past, with all my brokenness, I still know that I'm a gift. Because I think 75 percent of the world doesn't believe that, and that's where a lot of brokenness comes from, right?

I mean like, let's be honest, 98 percent of the world doesn't believe they're a gift, and they believe they have nothing to offer. And so it's like, okay, well, I'm just kind of like, you know, over here and I got nothing to give and I'm not, you know, and then what happens is and where I think a lot of people are getting this is the trend right now is very self help.

It's very, um, which again, like we're pro social media. We're pro self help. We're pro all those things. But I think what people are starting to feel is like, Man, I spend a lot of time worried about myself, worried about what I look like, worried about what I'm doing, worried about, you know, one of my favorite memes right now is, you know, our ancestors came across the country in a covered wagon and I, I write things on my planner, like drink water, like it's hilarious.

You know what I mean? Like, so I just, I think it's so fun to see the world try to like, they're trying, like the world is trying to find meaning. They're trying to be like everything they want to be. But the question is. For who? Because so much of the world is about, so many people are about catering to themselves and it's all about me It's all about me.

It's all about me and everybody's in my way and everybody's competition and everybody's all the seven It's like you are totally missing it like the whole point, you know to find someone, you know I love to pull out as an example religious Consecrated women. Okay. So even if there is people out there who are not Catholic, not Christian, not, don't believe in God.

If you've ever met a nun, a religious sister, they, they literally glow. They, they like, I mean, it's like a video game and they're the ones with like the magical powers that like, you know, they're happy. They're content. They're lovely. They, I mean, they're just, they're so happy and literally people look at them like they're this like foreign species.

Cause it's like, how can you be so happy? And I will tell you the secret sauce of being a religious woman. They know they're a gift and they know their whole life is about giving it away and they're gritty. They're really gritty. And so, and what do I mean by that? They pray, they love, they get, they'd live in service and they're magnets.

People just want to be with them because they're just so awesome. And again, if you've never met a religious woman, like try it out, go try to make a friend. They will, I promise you they will be your friend. Um, and so, but what I'm trying to make that point of is like the world is searching for this secret sauce.

And when people start to realize the secret sauce is all about having confidence that like your life matters. Like, you are a gift, like you are loved, and when you start to believe that, you live differently. And if you don't believe that, you live differently. And then when you start to realize that the whole purpose and meaning of your life and the freedom and the joy, your greatest joy is found in giving your life away, you live differently.

I mean, I think one of the most attractive things about a human being is selflessness. It's really hard to find, but who doesn't want a selfless spouse and who doesn't want a selfless mom and who doesn't want a selfless dad and who doesn't want a selfless friend? Even if they're just striving for it, because no one's perfect.

Like, what if we're just striving to not have my whole life be about me? And I think that that's what, but it's grit. It's not like, can I get up and work out in the morning? No. Can you be virtuous? Can you be loving? Can you be patient? Can you be kind? Can you be thoughtful? Um, can you be not all about you?

It's really, really hard. It's gritty. That's what the book is about. And that's why we wanted gift and grit in the title. Cause it was like, we kept going back to this as a couple, as parents, as ministers, as people who, you know, hang out with friends. It's like, this is what I want. For my family, it's what I want for myself, and I think it's what we're, a lot of the world's missing.

Beautiful. So good. Man, so much I want to comment on. You guys made me think of the C. S. Lewis quote when he said, Humility is not thinking, you know, less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. How freeing is that? You know, when, in times in my life where I've lived that well, which is like, Maybe like a week here.

There. It's so freeing. It's so freeing. It's so freeing to live a life. That's not just focused on you. Like you said, it's so much what I hear you both go ahead, please. That's when you're comfortable in your own skin. I mean, otherwise it's about self aggrandizement. Like, how can I make my, you know, find this social ladder?

And then it's wallowing in self pity and resentment. And it's like, so you're a hundred percent, right. I mean, Lewis Lewis nailed that. The humility is not just, I'm so bad. I'm so bad because if that's what you're thinking about, what are you thinking about me right now, it's like, take your eyes off yourself, enjoy the world, enjoy reality, enjoy the people around you and actually enter their world.

Beautiful. Yeah. I remember getting that advice from Jason over years ago, I think it was in high school at the time and just, you know, going through a lot of my own brokenness, especially after my family fell apart. And one of the things he told me was like, find someone in your life who is worse off than you and just like love on them.

And he wasn't encouraged me to like, ignore my brokenness and just like run from it, but truly like take that pain. And make something beautiful with it, which I think is, is so powerful. And so again, I'm not encouraging people to run away, working on it, working on it. God chooses the rustiest of instruments.

I questioned him on his, uh, at times, but we're here and we're doing it. Yeah. Yeah. But so much of what I hear you guys saying is about like identity and identity can be kind of elusive when we talk about it. It's not, it can be not very practical, but I hear you guys making it so practical in this conversation in this book.

And I love thinking back to, um, you guys probably know the story better than me. So correct me if I'm off here, but jump hold a second when he was in Poland, I forget if he was just a Bishop or. Pope at that point, but he, you know, the communists were trying to redefine the identity of the Polish people so that they can control them and get them to do what they wanted to.

And I remember that really powerful quote. He said something like, like, you are not who they say you are. Let me remind you. Who you are how beautiful and that and that I think there's this lesson that we receive our identity from others I think we can't define it ourselves. I think it's actually impossible and first and foremost We need to receive it from God But then also the people in our lives who love us who can speak into like no no, this is who you are You're not what you you're not as bad as you think you are And maybe you're not as good as you think you are in some ways like Like, we can see you as you are, and we love that, and that's good and beautiful, and um, and along those lines, I think, like you guys are saying, there is this tendency for us to hide the bad parts of our lives, but I've noticed in myself, even the good things, like even those gifts that we have, we might not step into them fully.

We might want some form of like secrecy or, and usually what I've seen in my own life, it's like based out of a fear that, you know, if we try our best, if we Do go all out at it. People are going to think it's not enough. People are going to, you know, put it down. I remember talking to one young woman who was just very like competent, talented.

And she said, basically, if I never give it my all, then I don't have to face the rejection and failure of knowing, well, I gave it my all and it didn't succeed. So if I always play it safe and just kind of go for like, The B level, then I won't ever have to face that. And I think that's so true for some of us.

So there's a lot there, but that's what I hear you guys saying. That's what I think this book, why it's so valuable and so needed in our time right now. But before we move on to relationships and things, I'd love to get your comment on any of that. The word that came to me when you were talking about that girl is like, um, just this, I feel like there's so much pressure on people.

I don't care how old you are. I don't care what role you're on in life. I just feel like there's a lot of pressure and that whole kind of aspect of Just not wanting to disappoint anyone, especially yourself. And you know, father Mike actually was talking about this. We were, I was up with his father, Mike Schmitz, the bulldogs up in Duluth.

And he was talking about the fact that what he was seeing post COVID with a lot of young adults was. Not really wanting to invest or get excited about things because it was probably just going to be canceled anyway, or it just probably wasn't going to happen anyway, like almost like the, yeah, just that whole idea of why am I going to invest myself or try, because it's probably not going to be enough for anyone.

And I'm, it's probably not even going to happen or just. Um, and so many people saw relationships that they had invested in. And then after COVID, it was like, they just dropped them or, you know, like, I don't, they don't call anymore. We don't date anymore. I don't know. Just, it was kind of just this like abrupt, you know, tear or drip or rift.

And it wasn't just COVID's fault. I think this is just human. You know, it, there's like a human desire. Um, and almost like a fear that exactly what this girl is saying of, you know, the greatest thing that I can do is not try because then I don't, I'm not disappointed and I can just kind of float. I think we see this with a lot, we, we personally have heard this from a lot of young adult men and men in general, um, where they're just like, it's too much.

I know I can't do it. I don't even, I just, I'm fine to be single my whole life because I am so intimidated by that and I don't even want to risk. No risk. No, thank you. We talk a lot about risk in the book. Just that idea of, um, what does it mean to put yourself out there? That's so hard. Even in a friendship, even in just trying to find friends.

Like it's, I think for a lot of people, it's scary. Um, and so I, I guess that one thing that I was just thinking about is something that I learned in counseling, um, just recently that I have been loving was from father Boniface Hicks. Um, if he, if, if you're, he's just a phenomenal, uh, Benedictine, um, but he's, he's great.

And I guess he, my counselor was telling me that he was making the point that a lot of times in the world, the, like the world's formula is you try something, you succeed and you arrive. And he said for the Christian, for the, you know, for the Catholic, sometimes the formula is actually try, fail, and surrender.

And the thing that happens is like, I think for me, I connected to this a lot and probably some of your listeners will too, because I try something and if I don't succeed and I don't arrive, then I think it was a total failure. So I live some of my life where I'm like waiting and working really hard and thinking that I'm going to like, but I never fully arrive.

You know, like, let's just say I want to be the world's best mom that's ever happened, you know, just the best mom ever. Well, when do you know that you've really succeeded as a mom? When do you know that you've really succeeded in your marriage? When do you know that you've arrived in your marriage? It's like, I mean, it's always But what I, what I took from that was, I think a lot of people feel that burn of, I am not succeeding, I'm not arriving, I'm, this is not going well.

So they stop trying and they're so afraid to fail that they just stop trying. And I have seen this in a lot of people's lives where it's like, it's not worth the risk. I'm just not gonna, I'm just not even going to try anymore. And that's where you get into that sloth and you get into that just self seeking and that bitterness and that, and that resentment, um, when really it's about trying and then, you know, you're probably going to fail and we're not perfect.

It's okay. Like you're, I mean, but, but when you do surrender it, That's where you usually start seeing this like quote unquote success because you're like whoa This is this is actually moving. This is actually going somewhere and I actually kind of suck at it, but I'm still going at I'm still trying and I'm still putting something into it, but it's not about arrival and it's not about success and it's not about achieving It's not about checking boxes or you know I just think the world is really caught up in with what defines How we define success.

And I think to the Christian, to the, you know, to the person who's trying not to live a selfish life, you got to redefine success. Friends. The part of what I hear about the surrender is it depends on what context we're talking about, but you surrender the outcome. Like I can't control the outcome all the time, but I can keep hacking at that tree.

I can keep doing what I'm supposed to do and just, just keep. Keep on going because you just, you don't know if it's the 21st hack or the 51st or that a tree's gonna fall. So don't let that hope die. I think I came across this quote super damning, but I'm like, Oh man, that's piercing because I think meaning and commitment are going to go hand in hand that you're not going to find me in your life until you're willing to throw yourself in and commit.

And this quote went like this, said a younger generation is going to die alone without the spouse. They never married without the kids. They never had. And without the God, they never knew. And again, I, it's not my quote. I I'm like, Oh my gosh. But it's a younger generation, probably because they've been burned.

They've been burned so many times. They're afraid to trust. Right. But a younger generation is going to die alone without the spouse that never married the kids that never had without the God they never knew. And I think modern man, I think is. More afraid of believing something false is true, like more afraid of being hoodwinked than they are missing out on a truth they miss out on.

They're afraid to take that risk and they'd rather play it safe and not get burned. But the thing is, not to decide is to decide because life will pass you by. We see this again and again and again and that's, we're not here to play defense. We're here to play offense and throw yourself into life. And there's going to be some bumps, right?

Yeah. You're not going to get it right all the time. Surrender the outcome. Yeah. But play the game, man. Yeah. Amen. So good. No, I love that. And I think another definition for grittiness could be just like your willingness to do hard things. And even suck at that. I've realized that I've realized that being such a good skill in life in general, but especially like in business, for example, of like, if you're willing to, like, work hard at learning something and go through the discomfort of being bad at it while you get good at it, you are going to be unstoppable, like truly.

Yes, well, and I, I could spend Joey, we could spend probably hours, I'll just fly out there and we can have like a five hour conversation. I call them glory stories. Cause like I could just, we could sit for hours. We've been doing ministry for over 20 years and it's like, I, when we talk about these kinds of things, we're not just talking about these abstract ideas.

I, in my head have pictures and flashes of people and I can't tell you how many, especially guys. Who have heard us or heard, you know, read the books or whatever and are just like, okay I'm gonna try that and all of a sudden they're like putting themselves out there and trying to like make female friends and try I'm Just laughing at the whole dating part of this where these guys were just paralyzed And then all of a sudden we're like well, okay XYZ these are like take these ten tips and run and I can't tell you how many guys have come back and been like Oh my gosh.

Like I, I would have never risked like this girl, like shutting me down or whatever, you know? And then it's like, yeah, by like the sixth date that I went on, I was like, they come to me and they're like, I'm getting better at this. I'm like, I know you are like, you just have to like keep going. And, but a lot of people don't ever want to try.

And these guys are married with kids and like, I mean they've, they've, what do you call it? They've arrived. If that's what we're really looking for. You know what I mean? But they, it was all about just like, I'm going to risk it. I'm going to put myself out there. I'm going to try to make guy friends and then I'm going to try to make female friends.

I'm going to try to make friends in general. I'm going to try to find people. It's not comfortable. It's not easy. I don't like throwing myself out there, but as I did it, I got better at it. And now I enjoy it. And now I, and now I have this like, Big group of friends that I never knew was possible. And I'm so glad I took that leap.

And I think that's what people need to hear is like, take the leap and in so many areas of your eye of your life, take that jump, you know, we know in other areas, I mean, I'll talk Europe, but like we, you know, what a musical instrument, foreign language. For me, it's been jujitsu. Like you have to, like you said, you have to be okay with sucking for a while.

That's why you get good. And like, it's not a linear line. Like it's going to take some time and then you hit these thresholds, but like, don't forget those things that we know are so true in every other walk of life. They're true in friendship, the true relationship between the spiritual life, that they translate readily.

If we just remember those, those basic principles that like stay the course and there's a new freedom around the corner. Hmm. So good. And I love the focus on just doing the small things, doing the small things, which I know we could talk a ton about. Um, but one of the things I just wanted to mention before we switched to dating, cause I know people want to hear your advice on that is that I think so often, um, underneath a lot of our fear, like you guys said so well, Is that, yeah we fear we're not enough in so many ways.

I remember in high school, uh, really struggling in my friendships because I felt like I had nothing to bring to the table. The way that I put into words was, I felt like a gift that wasn't worth giving or a gift that wasn't worth keeping. Like on the surface I could do like kind of the temporary, short, kind of flashy.

be like the wrapping paper, but I feared that once people open the gift, there's like no substance to it. And so that took a lot of time for me to wrestle with, but I think a lot of people find themselves there, even if they have this inkling, this belief that, yeah, I know I'm a gift intellectually, but I don't really feel that I don't really see evidence of it in my life.

And, uh, and that's something you do have to wrestle with. But I think in time, like you said, through relationships, especially your relationship with God and mentors, those. Being the two primary ones in my life, you're able to then not just believe in an intellectual level, but like in your bones at the level of your heart, like, no, you are a gift.

You have something so valuable to offer to the world, not just what you can do, but just who you are. Um, so I want to get to dating, but I know there's so much to say there too. Oh, no, I mean, I can't improve upon Joey, but I think part of it, though, part of the paradox is, and it's funny, I've had conversations with my high school boys about this, like, you see different groups, different contexts, where everybody's like trying to be like everybody else.

It's like, well, that's when you become a boring gift. Like the paradox is like you will actually only be a real gift and an exciting gift and an interesting gift when you just be yourself, right? Like be true to who you really are and stop playing this fake charade. Yeah, so good. Let's get to dating quickly.

So it's a mess out there, right? It's a hot mess. The dating scene right now. We all know this. Um, what are your quick tips on, you know, navigating that and finding that right person? There are no quick tips. That's that's a sad thing. That's the hard thing. Um, well, that was, that was one of the things that, um, when we first started doing ministry was when social media came out, we will be married.

We've been married 18 years. Um, and. You know, we, I, when we were dating, we were long distance and we didn't have zoom FaceTime texting. Um, I mean, we're not dinosaurs, but like we did, all we had was like the razor flip phone. You know what I mean? It's just like, wow. And I think that one of the things that I really want your listeners to hear is, and I say this too, like anytime I'm giving a talk, I usually start the talk with this, which is.

If you feel like this is the hardest, craziest, unknown territory, I'm not doing this right. I must be the only one that can't figure this out. This is so ridiculously hard. If you're feeling all those things, just know that you're not alone. And guess what? You are the first group in human history that has ever had to play with this particular set of cards.

Like this deck that we're all holding of cards that we're supposed to be playing with has never seen In the history of man, some of the cards that we're seeing, I mean, social media loans. I mean, when you start looking at even just like post pandemic world, just like having technology in a post pandemic during a pandemic kind of thing that never before online dating never been a thing before.

Um, I mean, we could go video games, like just having to introduce all of these things is AI, like we are sitting in a time in history where you should, I mean, there's no reason for you to feel like, you know what you're doing. So I think everyone needs to take a really deep breath in, like inhale, exhale, and just kind of have a little bit of, honestly, just a little bit of love for each other and a little bit of patience with each other and a little bit of understanding that.

No one exactly knows how to navigate this and no one knows how to parent this and no one knows how I mean It's kind of just a it's a really interesting time. And so I I really cut Uh, I cut people a ton of slack because I just feel like, you know, we, dating is so messy and I don't think that it's just one of those things where people can be like, just figure it out.

Like get over, like get over, what's so hard about it. I want to like slap people like, I don't know how many grandmas or hairdressers or people have said things to young, young adults like, Oh, why are you dating anyone? Oh, like, Oh, like you should cut your hair and just get prettier. You should like, what?

You're not a man enough to go ask people out. I'm like, shut up, like shut up. You know what I mean? Like, why are you putting more pressure on these people? Do they not know how difficult this is? Like, I mean, so I just, I really want people to hear in my voice how much love and just respect I have for your fight.

And for the fact that you are just trying to navigate this and don't feel like you suck at this because it's like, everyone does kind of, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's just very new to everyone. So, so there is no, I mean, there's no quick fix. I, I'm, I'm so sorry. To everyone out there who's navigating the dating scene, like you have been dealt a really tough deck of cards.

Okay. All that said, it's good advice. Yeah. There is a way to do this, right? Like there, I mean, so, so all that said, look at me, get all excited and be like, but we've got thoughts, you know what I mean? So, um, so we wrote this book. I mean, there is an entire chapter in this book on can men and women be friends.

Because that is probably one of the questions, uh, that we get a lot because even in secular dating, it's so like the norm to just pass somebody your number at a bar or, you know, it's very much like, um, kind of the dog and pony show of like, this is who I am. And you just have this, like 1 date where you're just like the greatest person has ever existed.

And you know what I mean? And you can feed people lines and you can lie and you can lie on social media. You can lie on a dating app. You can lie in person. And I think it's really hard to trust. Um, so the greatest thing you can do if anybody out there who's trying to navigate the dating scene, I mean, the greatest thing you can do is invest in friendships.

Because nine times out of 10, you are going to find someone who is worthy of dating in a group of friends that you already trust because you don't know, you don't have to just trust this one person and the dog and pony show. You can trust that group of friends to help you navigate that together, which is really beautiful.

Um, you also can see, you learn a lot more. When you're in a big group of friends than you ever would on one blind date, like how do they interact with other men? How do they interact with other women? How do they treat other men? How do they treat other women? Um, there's just so many things. And this is where I know we don't have a ton of time, but this is where it's really interesting to dive into the.

How hard it is to date without social, like in person cues. I mean, things that you pick up on that you could never pick up on over text or over online, you know, there's so many things like, does someone like you, or are you interested in someone? It's really hard to do when you're not actually physically with that person.

So it's so interesting. Just those, you know, just all those cues that I would say a hundred years ago they had, and we, we don't always have, you know, it's, it's just like, wow. So how do we navigate knowing? That these things aren't at the ready as much as they used to be. Um, but how do we navigate that?

Like we love online. We always say we love online dating, um, because it's about online meeting and in person dating. Like online meeting is our online dating is a great way to quickly find people in your, You know, even if they're far away, just like trying to find people that you actually would want to, you know, meet and date, you know what I mean?

It's really hard to date completely online and to know everything you need to know about their family, their friends, how they act around other people, how they act around you. Like you, there's so much that it's hard to pick up on, but we're huge. I mean, we're huge fans of gosh, meet, meet, meet. You've got to meet people.

And it's really hard. to meet people, even if you're, if you're from like a small town or you're, you work a lot or whatever. It's like, okay, you have a lot of things, but investing in good friends is going to be life changing for you. Um, and then also the healing piece. I mean, yeah, there's nothing better that you can do for your dating life than to listen to this podcast that all the things we just said and just say, you know, suffering that's not transformed is transmitted.

And so to really have your heart, you know, sister Miriam, you know, if you to really have your heart and you, no one's ever going to be perfect. You're never going to be perfectly healed. You're never going to be able to wrap a bow around your neck and be like, done, done. Like there's no such thing as that.

And I wish there was dang, do I ever, but that's kind of where it's at is it's like, man, I am growing, I am moving, I am pursuing, you know, it's just, there's so many good words. Um, and then you see who runs alongside you in that, um, that's where a lot of really great dating relationships come from. Um, but yeah, brokenness, when you, when you're just trying to find someone to mask your brokenness or to fill, fill you up or to fill an insecurity or to affirm you or to make, make them your God and make them your savior and make them your everything.

Like you will crush that person under the weight of it and you will always be disappointed. Like they cannot be that for you. So I mean, that's my greatest dating advice is I, I played that game for years. Um, and it wasn't until, you know, I really found the Lord and found my friends, my good girlfriends that I could trust and found good guy friends that I could trust, that I actually thought about the fact that I was using men, um, to really try to pacify in me and try to build my worth and try to find my worth and what they thought of me.

But that all changed when I started really putting my life together and, and again, knowing I'm a gift. Starting to give my life away as a gift and having grit and having virtue and having love for others and not just myself That all of a sudden my good guy friend group What one guy just started kept sticking out kept sticking out kept sticking out after years of friendship And it was like, shoot, dang, I think we should date.

Um, so, so I think that that's my best advice is, you know, it's all in the book and it's all an emotional virtue. Cause I mean, you gotta put it somewhere in writing because we talk too fast, but I just think that it's one of those things that, you know, it's not always about finding the perfect person.

It's about this whole idea of gift and grit. Maybe I echo everything she said. You gotta know who you are and know where you're running and find people that are running with you. And get to know lots of people. So in terms of like going on a date or getting to know people, yes, yes, yes. But as you enter into a relationship, Especially when you're getting a good idea of who this person is, their character, their faith, etc.

Where are they running? You know, what's life all about for them? Don't stay in that relationship if you could not see yourself marrying that person, right? You date to find out if it's that person. Like, you don't know that. Are they the kind of person that she would want to end up with? Uh, if you can't say yes to that, then you're just dating heartache.

It's not going to, it's not going to go anywhere. Good. And you're better off just not wasting your time or theirs or theirs. So I mean, date with a purpose. And also, like, you don't know who else is around, I mean, who else is around the corner or who, I mean, it just, it's, life is too short to kind of play games and to just date for merely like my own, for fun, my own excitement, my own emotional gratification, what have you.

I mean, like, like there's, that's, that's a part of it. But like, as you enter into a relationship, a committed relationship, are they the kind of person that you want to run with and are they the kind of person that you want to raise your kids? Um, that's really, it's easy to neglect that question. You have to think about that.

And when it's just the two of you, it's like, Oh, we get along. But okay. Imagine them forming your kids. Like, is that, is that what you want? We always kind of one of the nail in the coffin questions that we've had, cause we've counseled, you know, couples for years, especially like dating and engaged couples or, you know, people who are like, ah, something's off or whatever, you know, like they're, they're bringing us something, you know, about a relationship.

One of the things that we say to them is, okay, you're married. You guys get married. You're married 10 years. You have three little kids. You die. Are you okay with yours? Are you okay with this person raising your kids? Like, do you think that that would, they would be able to do what you guys want to do?

Because I think a lot of people walk into relationships like, Oh, well, I'll change them. It's fine. Or, oh, I'll just, I'll carry the relationship. It's fine. You know, like, they're good enough. I will just fill in all those gaps. Like, it's fine. Like, I will, I will just take care of all of that. And I think when you kind of ask that question of like, I'm really trusting this person not, not only with my life, but with the life of my children.

Is this the kind of person that we, that I want to have raised my kids even if I wasn't there? Um, I think that's kind of one of those, like, whaa kay, I'm gonna go take that and think about that and pray about that for a minute, cause you see it in their eyes, you know, and, and last thing, cause I know we got, I know we're up against the time, but like, okay.

Everybody out there problems that you have in dating and engagement do not go away when you get married. They are magnified And so it's really good if you're in a relationship right now, and you're like man, like I just don't know and nobody's perfect So everybody take that, you know and set that aside Everybody has wounds.

Everyone has baggage. Everyone has you know, things that they're not good at no one is completely selfless You know, you're gonna have your moments But it's a really, really, really dangerous thing to say things like, I'll just change them. It's fine. I can work with this. It's not going to be a problem later.

Let's not bring it up. Let's not rock the boat. Let's not, you know, I have 500 invitations and address in my closet, so we're just going to move forward with this because in our world, it's a lot easier, a lot easier to get divorced than it is to call off a wedding. And there's so much pressure on, on our people that are dating to be like, Oh my gosh, I got this right.

And there's no one else is ever going to date me. I can't break up with them. I can't start over. And they, they, they, a lot of people we've counseled, they saw warning signs. They knew that they should have said something. They, they wanted to bring it up, but they didn't. And it just. Followed them into their marriage and it doesn't get, it does not go away.

And so that's just our word of love out there for everybody who's in a relationship, like no relationships. Perfect. But do not be afraid to bring up tough stuff and don't be afraid to bring up your past or your baggage or your wounds, you know, to someone that you're engaged to. Or, you know, if you're seriously dating, I think a lot of people are like, I just don't want them to know.

And it's like, well, they're going to find out eventually, you know? And so to really be able to have. If you trust them, if you're in a safe spot, if you've been dating, you know, I'm not, I'm not rushing anyone into those conversations, but promise me you have them before you get married. You know what I mean?

Like I think that's so important and the world doesn't talk about that. The world just says, put on a great face, make it look good. You know what I mean? And that's. It's just not, that's not the formula for, for success in your marriage. Yeah. As long as you have a good Instagram, you go on nice vacations and that you have a successful marriage and family and whatever, but no, it's nothing to be afraid from the truth.

I, uh, the, uh, shoe company Zappos, one of the things that they do when they hire people is they actually incentivize them to quit. They, they literally put money on the table and say like, you can walk away with thousands of dollars if you quit. Because they're looking for the people who are really dedicated.

I wonder if we should start monetizing, incentivizing, like breaking off like marriages so that, yeah, this whole divorce option doesn't seem so attractive. Because I think so often, yeah, we lose. The game in the draft, and we need to turn that around. And so I know it's probably discouraging for some people listening because it's so hard to find like a decent person, let alone like a good heroic person.

Um, but they are out there and we meet them all the time, right? And they're just not connecting and we need to connect them. So I know we're all working on that, but I could spend forever with you to your, your gems. I just love speaking with you. If people want to pick up the book, I say like, I know how discouraging what we are saying sounds because I think that, um, I think a lot of people have lost hope, and I think what I just want them to hear both of us say, and you say, is Please do not despair.

Please do not give up hope. Please do not settle. Um, I mean, like we want you to be happy. We want you to be fully alive. We want you all those things. Um, but I, I don't want, I don't want people to think that we're saying, Oh, it's so easy, you know, like, Oh, it's so, it's so easy. Just do it. No, like everything we are saying is so hard, but it's worth it.

And I think that that's, I think that's what I really want people to hear is, you know, we're not saying that, no, this is just magically going to happen. What's wrong with you. That's the farthest thing from the truth. It's actually, this is one of the hardest things you'll ever do, but it's actually one of the things that's going to bring you the most happiness and freedom.

Um, and it's, yeah, it's hard, but like we're cheering you on and to find friends that will walk this with you is it's just priceless. And I'd say, what's the alternative. Like, do you really want the alternative or do you want to just give us fair shake and go after it and see what happens? Amen. Yeah. And the book, yeah, gift and grit.

We have a website, the Swaffords. com, um, and you can find the book and some other, you know, other books that we've written there. And we love signing books for people and like putting their name on it, writing them a note. Um, I always get like in the note sections, like my name is Brittany. Give me all the encouragement, you know, it's like Brittany, you know, so I don't know whoever it, I love it when you guys tell us who you are and so we can sign your name and be like, You've got this like you can do this and so we love that and so that's where you can find us and We're just praying for everyone and we're so proud of everyone.

Please hear us say that we're so proud of you Just for all all that you're doing just being a human is hard And so know how proud of you are where they're cheering and we're definitely cheering for you beautiful. So good Thank you both for coming on this show since Yeah, I just want to give you like 30 final seconds to give us the final word, final encouragement advice.

And if you could, I know in the book you have a whole chapter on like healing. And uh, so many people listening right now are just struggling with healing. They don't know where to begin. I know you guys talk about that more deeply in the book, but if you were on an elevator with someone for 30 seconds, what's like one thing you would tell them to close out the show?

Gosh, I don't know if it's elevator or not, but you mentioned sin and woundedness, and I think that's, that's exactly right. So our, our sin brings us to our own chains and enslaves us, but then on that it's compounded with shame. It's like I can't go back. I, I, you know, and so just that's a lie from the devil.

Um, be patient with yourself, be patient with your life. Um, just start taking small steps. And you'll just, amazing things will happen over time, but be patient. Be patient with yourself, your own advice, your own words. It's okay. We're all, we're all seasick and we're all on the same journey. So God bless you all.

And, uh, as Sarah said, super proud of you all for fighting the fight. That's what it's about. It's about fighting the fight. Surrender the outcome, but fight the fight.

such good content, love talking with the swafford. And if you want more from them, if you wanna get their book for example, uh, you can just click on the link in the show notes. And I think if I understood it right, if you order through the link in the show notes, uh, you'll get a personalized note from them with the book.

I don't know if that applies if you order from Amazon, for example, but just go ahead and click the link in the show notes if you want their book. And like I mentioned at the top of the show, if you want to help us grow this podcast to build better resources and help more young people from divorced and broken families to break the cycle, my team and I would love to partner with you.

We have a donor who has offered generously a 50, 000 matching gift. And so we're working to, to match that gift. And so if you feel called, just click on the links and the show notes, you could either schedule a time with me to hear more about our plans for the future and what you'd be investing in, or if you don't have time for that, but you still have benefited from the show and you want to help us.

Go out even further. Uh, feel free to just donate through the links in the show notes. I'm honored to have you partner with us, and I'd love to share more with you in the future. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's from a broken family, maybe they're really struggling because of their parents divorce, share this podcast with them.

I promise you, they will be super grateful. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction, divorce, and your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis, who said. You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#114: You Were Not Made to Be Without a Father and Mother | Nicole Rodriguez

When your parents divorce, you almost always lose one or both parents physically or emotionally. But as our guest today says, we’re not meant to go through life without the mentorship of a father and a mother. 

In this episode, Nicole Rodriguez shares the immense healing she’s experienced through parents who were not her own. We also discuss:

• How her parents’ divorce started with infidelity and led her to feeling abandoned and lonely

• The emotional numbness and skepticism toward emotion that she experienced

• How she felt doomed to repeat the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, but thankfully overcame that

Buy the Book: Undone: Freeing Your Feminine Heart from the Knots of Fear and Shame

Attend the Undone  Women’s Conference

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When your parents divorce, you truly lose one or both parents, either emotionally or physically. And that was the experience of my guest today. But as she says, we're not meant to go through life without the mentorship of a father and a mother. And in this episode, Nicole Rodriguez joins us to share the immense healing that she's experienced through parents who are not her own.

We also discuss how her parents divorce started with infidelity and led to her feeling abandoned. and lonely. She shares the emotional numbness that she experienced and even the skepticism toward emotion itself. We also discuss perfectionism and control that she's wrestled with in an attempt to build the life and even the marriage that was the opposite of her parents.

We also touch on how she felt doomed to repeat the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in her own life. But thankfully how she overcame that and then finally how she's struggled in relationships and marriage and what she's done, the solutions she's found, um, to that. So much good stuff ahead. Lots of wisdom.

Stay with us. Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 114. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard tons of great feedback. Sandy said this, she said, this podcast is so healing from the insights gained to Joey's sincere acknowledgement of the pain we feel from our parents divorce. He's one of the few people who has given me permission to grieve my parents divorce, even though it happened decades ago.

And to make me feel like I'm not crazy for needing to do so. To be able to put words and understanding to my pain has been huge. It's so encouraging to know that it's not just me and that I'm not alone. Thank you. Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been so helpful for you. We do it for you. My guest today is Nicole Rodriguez.

Nicole is a presenter for the Undone Women's Conference and has been associated with the John Paul II healing center since its earliest days. She's a contributor to the book Undone, freeing the feminine heart from the knot of fear and shame. She and her husband of 29 years are parents to three biological sons who are now powerful intercessors in heaven.

Both she and her husband have really fully embraced the call that they feel to be spiritual parents and have been blessed to share their hearts with over 30. spiritual children and Nicole has actually studied at the Theology of the Body Institute and is a certified spiritual director. And as you can probably tell, we obviously talked about God and faith in this episode and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone who's been listening to this podcast knows that it's not a strictly religious podcast by any means. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is this, if you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip the God parts, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode.

And so with that Here's my conversation with Nicole. Nicole, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you here. Thank you. This is a, it's an honor really to be here. And the gift is to share some of my story with you and, and to just see where the Lord takes us today. I'm excited to hear more of your story.

And I already admired you and the work that you've done and you guys do at the JP2 Healing Center. So excited to go deeper into your story. To start, I'm curious, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? Yeah, I was 11 years old. Um, for me, that's a very pivotal time in life for any child really.

Uh, so it was, it was a crushing blow to my heart, honestly. Um, yeah, at that young age, so such a sense of my world and my foundation just kind of being torn out from under me at that age, um, from going from a place of feeling safe and secure to such a place of feeling, uh, where do I belong? Like where is home?

Um, no longer having that sense of security, um, in my own life at that point in time. So it was, it was a real source of sadness for me, um, and a source of loneliness for many, many years. Thank you for sharing all that. And I can totally relate. And, um, funny enough, or coincidentally, I should say I was 11 as well when my parents, uh, separate and later got divorced.

So definitely can relate to that, the tenderness of that age and just feeling the way I often talk about is it truly just shattered my world. I just brought a ton of pain and problems into my life, which I know we're going to get into kind of what that more specifically looked like for you, but to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, uh, what what happened.

Uh, well for my parents, um, their divorce was basically, um, a point with my mom and my dad of just not being able to reconcile some differences. Um, basically there was a lot of infidelity, if you will, in the marriage and just to be honest. And so for my mom at that point in time, my parents, um, really were of no faith background.

And I just mentioned that just because I think, uh, for them. It gave way to not having a particular foundation in their life of why they even came together to begin with. They were very young, 17 and 19, so they were children in my eyes in so many ways. So, there's so much there in the background that led them to, to their divorce.

Okay. No, that makes sense. And thanks for sharing all that and lacking that kind of common purpose. And I've heard researchers, uh, say that if you can get on the same page when it comes to what you believe in God, um, kind of your parent parenting techniques, like how you want to parent, how many kids you want to have, um, on the same page about, um, in laws, like how to handle, um, you know, relationships and boundaries there, and then also how to handle money.

If you can get on the same page with those four things, Your chance of having a successful marriage, a stable marriage is much higher. And so like you're saying, that relationship with God, if that's missing and there's no like consensus there, it's going to be a lot more challenging to build something that's stable and to again, go through life, especially the challenges, um, and endure and make it to the other side.

So that totally makes sense and love for you. Feel free to comment on any of that, but I am curious about kind of how the breakdown of your parents marriage and the divorce affected you. Yeah, absolutely. Um, It had a profound effect on me, really, uh, in the area of being a daughter. My identity as a daughter.

Um, that particular heartbreak, it's just, I didn't know who or whose I was after this divorce. Uh, I felt so abandoned. And from that place of abandonment really came these lies that became the lens through which I saw life. Um, really the, the lie that I am alone. Uh, no one understands me and i'll always be alone in my suffering.

And so these wounds, if you will, the abandonment wound and these lies, lies that surrounded this whole area has really hindered my ability to mature and just in my identity as a sister, growing, right, and maturing, um, becoming a bride later on and becoming a mother. So it just impacted me in all these places of my life.

Um, and in particular as a sister after my parents divorce, I remember My older siblings just the intensity of the pain and anger that they were experiencing That their emotions felt so overwhelming to me being the youngest of three When I would go to share my own thoughts my own feelings. I just felt incredibly paralyzed, if you will, and I felt overwhelmed and not welcomed to express myself.

So I learned very quickly at that age and at that young age to really, um, to recognize that I am powerless in these places and I felt really weak, um, because I couldn't make the situation change. I couldn't change the situation with my parents. I couldn't change what I was experiencing with my sister and my brother.

Um, and so with that, it's just the reality that I didn't have anyone to process my pain with. Which is a terrible suffering to experience, to not have anyone to really go to, I'm in a process at. So I believed, I began to believe really it's not safe to feel my emotions. Um, and if I do, I'm going to get stuck and my needs and my emotions are just too much.

So that's what I carried really into my marriage, my identity as a bride, if you will, I came into marriage with this lens of, uh, two things I like to say really perfectionism, um, abandonment and fear holding it together. And what I mean by perfectionism is I thought that, um, If I pray enough novenas, if I pray enough rosaries, if I checkbox all these lists off correctly, then I will not likely experience what my parents experienced.

Um, that if I do everything perfect, I won't be anything like my family. And so I had no idea at the time when I came into marriage that really, that I came into marriage with all of the, this baggage, if you will. Um, the lies that started to affect me as I was married was just a sense of hopelessness that somehow.

I'm going to be just like my family, and I'm never going to change. So, there is no hope. And that's what I was wrestling with, um, and I was dealing with all this pain at that point, and I didn't know how to express it or bring it to my husband. And so if you can imagine, simultaneously, I'm experiencing this pain, if you will.

At the same time, I'm discovering John Paul II's writings on the theology of the body, his integrated vision of the human person, human love, and just this understanding of family life, and the beauty and the goodness of what we are made and created for. So as I'm reading this incredible vision that's being laid out, Of what we're ultimately made for and created for in family, as a woman, as a man.

It was speaking to the deepest places of my heart. It was like breaking open everything that I ached and longed for so profoundly. And it gave me an understanding like, oh my gosh, like this, this is what I'm made for. I'm made for this goodness. I'm, I'm made for family life. That I'm good, my body is good, that marriage is sacred and holy.

And so at the same time I'm reading this vision and at the same time all these wounds and these lies are starting to erupt. And I'm starting to see, oh my gosh, how do I get there? How do I live into that vision when my experience, my life experiences, do not match up to what this vision is that's being laid out for me?

And not recognize I was bound by all of these, these lies that I began to believe as a teenager that I grew into that I believe from my family life growing up. And so that reality hit. I understood I needed to journey deeper into my heart because my understanding as a daughter, as a sister, bride, and mother needed to be redeemed.

It needed to be restored. Um, all these areas of my heart, because when the foundation of being a daughter is so deeply affected, it affects everything. every other part of my heart. It affects my capacity to be a sister to others, to love well, to be in healthy relationships, right? It affects my ability to, to love freely as a bride, to be receptive and open, and to give of myself fully.

And it affects the capacity to be a mother, um, because I remember early on in marriage I was like, I was a little fearful, um, just because of my own witness of what I, what I saw around me. And yet, the Lord redeemed a lot of that, for sure. So that's kind of the starting point of, of how things started to become.

Just the seal was broken, if you will. Wow. So good. And thank you for sharing so vulnerably and I'm sorry for what you've been through. And yeah, I'm just impressed with you too. Just the pain you went through, the ways in which maybe you reacted to that, that were unhealthy and then the person you are today and the healing you found.

It's really inspiring and beautiful and something I know that all of us You know, uh, want. And so, gosh, I can relate to so much of what you said. I know our listeners can too, especially just that sense of kind of being doomed to repeat the cycle of dysfunctional divorce in your own marriage and relationships.

I know that's a big fear. Of the young people that we work with, like we want better, but we don't really know how to go about that. We don't know how to go about building a healthy relationship. And again, we feel like, man, am I just destined to repeat this cycle? And statistically it's scary to see. And I know, you know, this data, but like we do.

statistically are more likely at least to end up repeating that pattern. And so it really is a big question and an important one of like, how do we avoid that? How do we not go down that path? And I know your life, um, you know, is just a beautiful roadmap, a beautiful, um, testimony, beautiful story that we can learn from and, um, act on, on those lessons.

So I'm so grateful that you're here. I, um, yeah. Just the abandonment. I can relate to that a lot too. And remember the sense of feeling, you know, I was just on my own, like the two people that I trusted the most, my parents, once they split and, you know, that all came to light. I was just, just like you said, just this profound sense of abandonment.

Of isolation, of loneliness, no one really there to, you know, catch my tears and to, to be with me, to walk with me through all of that. And, uh, you know, that being impactful in and of itself, and I remember this one trauma therapist that we partner with, we work with, she says that what makes a trauma a trauma is really how it's handled after the fact.

If someone's there to like love you and walk with you through it, the negative effects can be mitigated in large part. Maybe not entirely, but in large part. But if we're alone, if we're isolated, if we feel that abandonment, then we're going to go through life limping on and doing the best we can in many ways.

Um, but that's not like what we're meant for ultimately. So anyway, your story is just really moving and beautiful. And I, um. No, it can relate to so much of it. I am curious, uh, just for everyone listening, how many siblings do you have? Um, I have an older sister who has since passed away, actually, and an older brother.

I'm sorry. And then I also have a younger half brother. My father is remarried and I have a brother that's in college. Okay, beautiful. Um, thanks for sharing that too. And yeah, I mean, I'd love to go deeper into your story. Um, yeah, feel free to expound on anything I just said, but also I like to hone in a little bit more on that, you know, the relationships in your life, whether those are friendships, but especially romantic relationships and your own marriage.

Like, how did you see it? You already mentioned a little bit of it, but I'm curious to go deeper of how you saw your parents divorce, the breakdown of your family impact your relationships, especially your marriage. Yeah. Most specifically, um, well in high school, it definitely impacted my, my, uh, inability to be close to anybody really, um, very protective walls around my heart.

Um, and when I met Lance, my husband, it's honestly, uh, when I first met him, It was a time in my life where I was so focused on my education and school and it was kind of a back burner idea to get involved in a relationship. But as we did grow in friendship and grow in, in relationship with each other and entering into marriage, yeah, that my family's divorce had a profound impact.

And I thought. I thought because I was doing all the quote unquote right things, if you will, as far as, um, in my life, going to mass, um, going to church, right? Praying these particular things which are very good, yet, yet the human formation and the emotional pieces that need restoration, healing are so profoundly important.

And so it's so difficult then. I found really it was like the seven year mark in our marriage that things kind of started coming up and realized like, wow, there's a lot here. Um, I was struggling with depression. I was struggling with just Gosh, is this what marriage really is? Is this all there is? Like questioning these things in the back of my mind?

Um, and like I said, coming across Theology of the Body and a lot of writings that I started diving into on the dignity and vocation of women and just all these different beautiful letters and writings within the church itself. So all that started to give me a framework for what I was made for, but yet I couldn't get past the ache and the pain of the unresolved grief that I did not.

Get to experience fully and enter into the sorrow, the pain that was really deeply locked and buried away inside of my heart. And I had the safety in my marriage to begin to actually experience it and feel it. Because I've, I've really have learned that in order to enter into the pain or to grieve the sorrow or to feel all of the emotions, the anger, whatever it was that I, I needed to experience, there needed to be a safe space to know.

That I would be loved where I'm at and what I feel before I could enter the pain. And marriage naturally gives you that space. My marriage did anyways. Began to give me that space to feel these things. Um, and yet at the same time it wasn't for my husband to carry everything. It was for him to come alongside of me and walk through it with me.

And at that point we realized I needed and we needed others to come in and help us on the journey. So it was hard. It was difficult because I felt when I would look at my husband, it was just this, this Desire to love him more fully, you know, and experience that place of like, why can't I, why can't I love more deeply?

Why can't I give more fully? Well, understandably so. I understand why now very clearly because of those places of my heart, those parts of my heart, the child teenager that were still experiencing the trauma and the pain of the loss. But having nowhere to go with it. Hmm. Profound. And, yeah, I, I know everyone listening can relate to you, who comes from broken families.

There's so much in your story that I, I just want to highlight for everyone. One of the things, if I'm hearing you right, please correct me if I'm not, that just the numbness you experienced too, of kind of like shutting off your emotions because they were so overwhelming. Or like you said, your siblings couldn't like really receive them or their.

Kind of heavy emotions overshadowed your own and I, um, certainly experienced the numbness thing through high school because, you know, like I said, my parents separated when I was 11. Once it got to the point of high school, I almost had this like distrust of emotion. I almost thought it was like a bad thing because so many of my emotions.

At least in the years prior, we're just like these quote, unquote, negative emotions of just anxiety and pain and loneliness and sadness, depression, like all the, those things. So I thought the point of life in many ways would just to kind of feel nothing, be kind of stoic. And, uh, and I adopted that for a while, but after a while, and I'm curious if kind of where you went with this too, um, I realized that.

There's just such an emptiness to that and that life is meant to be more than just, you know, getting by or trying to feel nothing, um, but truly embracing the good and the bad, like truly, um, giving it the attention. Maybe it deserves. It's a better way to say it. Um, so yeah, I think that that numbness, I know it's a kind of a typical trauma response, but it's something certainly that I wrestled with for a while.

And it actually, it didn't change for me until like later in high school when my brother was actually studying over in Austria. Yeah. Um, and I was able to visit him, um, based on like my, you know, just kind of school schedule and everything. I had some time to go visit him. And, um, it was really through that that, um, I felt like God was inviting me to kind of open my heart a lot more and just be able to experience like all the goodness of life, all the different, you know, colors, so to speak.

And, uh, man, that certainly was a pivotal point in my life where, um, I saw that I was meant to. You know, emotions aren't obviously the, um, only thing in life that only input only a bit of information, but they're part of like, we're not meant to just live from our heads. We're meant to live from our hearts as well.

And so that was kind of instructing for me. So I haven't talked about this in a while, but you just brought it out and I thought, uh, yeah, it meant really beautiful. Um, and I'm curious, kind of your, um, experience with like battling the numbness and kind of opening yourself. And then you already touched on it a bit, but I'd love to hear more.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, just to bounce back a little bit, in high school, I definitely, um, I would say because of my experience with family life, um, I definitely started dabbling into areas I shouldn't have gone into, really, because my desire To be seen, known, and loved so deeply. Um, so, you know, starting to enter into relationships that weren't the healthiest.

Uh, entering into, um, drinking wasn't the healthiest thing to be doing. So, all these things to numb the pain, if you will, right? Um, and then, later in life, Within marriage, I think the beauty of what the Lord started doing in orchestrating through my marriage and then orchestrating through pivotal people that he brought into our life and into my life, uh, where the healing really began, um, but ahead of getting to those places it was just, I, I completely can relate to the experience of having so much shame around my emotions.

So much shame for feeling anger, so much shame for feeling sorrow, so much shame for like literally having any kind of, um, emotional experience. Because when I felt anger, it was just like, it was anger explosive. It wasn't this medium, you know, and that's because I was never taught. How to regulate and navigate my own emotions.

Um, and so, so much shame would come in with feeling the anger. So just such a spiral would happen over and over, right? Of this cycle. around emotions. Um, and it wasn't really until it's so beautiful and amazing just like in my marriage of pregnancy actually and experiencing the gift of being pregnant and then actually um, experience the loss of our one son Thomas and I say this In such a delicate way that in that profound experience, the Lord was speaking so strongly to me about the importance of experiencing my emotions, the grieving of the loss.

And as I was grieving the loss of my son Thomas, memories were coming back of my childhood of the abandonment and the loss I felt. So at the same time I was grieving the loss of my son, but grieving also the loss as a child feeling my heart as a little girl, this vulnerable place of experiencing this loss.

Of the many times I'd cry myself to sleep at night, those memories that started coming in. And the Lord was just so, saying clearly to me, this is what it means to be fully alive. It's to feel all of your emotions. And it just started breaking things open further and further for me, of entering into my emotions, of entering into these experiences, and not running away from them and not being afraid.

Uh, because that would've been a moment in my life when it comes to losing a child, uh, within the womb, to run from those experiences, to run from the pain. But as I embraced it, I actually ended up embracing these other parts of my heart, that's just the beauty of God, right? Of experiencing another area that needed restoration and healing.

And the Lord is so good in His economy to use one experience that's so present in the present moment, yet to attach it to, other moments of my life, if that makes sense, to bring about restoration healing. Wow. I'm so sorry for what you went through with the miscarriages. We had a miscarriage early on, my wife and I, and definitely, um, very difficult, impactful, and even traumatic thing to go through.

So I'm, I'm sorry you went through that and, and your story, but yeah, I. I love what you said about just experiencing like the full range of human emotions and how that's part of what it means to be fully alive, which is so true. And I think those of us, again, who've gone through trauma and kind of been flooded, um, truly flooded with an overwhelm of emotion, um, again, I think we can, like, we're both expressing like we can have this like distrust of emotion, but, you know, slowly with the right people guiding you through your life.

Um, if you're in that spot of kind of feeling numb and not trusting them, you can get to a spot where you're, you're feeling the healthy anchor, you're feeling, you know, um, even healthy loneliness in a way that signals to you that, okay, something needs to change here. Like I, you know, I need to do something, um, to fill my life with relationship with maybe mentors or with friendships and things like that.

So love, love all of that. And man, we can do a whole episode on, on that. I'm sure. There was something else you said too that I've, uh, we've recognized in the young people that we worked with, have worked with as well as in our own lives as a team here. And that is just that desire for perfectionism and control.

And, um, Oh man. Yeah. My so much of my life. And even now it's something I have to, you know, battle, but so much of my life was just like that. Desire to control so that nothing could go wrong like you said, so well before and I've noticed, um, kind of two extremes when it comes to marriage and relationships to for people like us on one end, we might just give up on love and relationships like we want nothing to do with them or if we do, we love at arm's length like you expressed and we don't really let people in.

But it's kind of like this abandonment of what a true relationship would look like, because we just like, don't trust it, we don't think it's going to work out, eventually it's going to fall apart. So that's the kind of one end of the extreme, just like, kind of giving up on loving relationships and likely settling for the counterfeit.

On the opposite end though, and I experienced both of these, we have this desire for this almost utopia, this perfect relationship that's so the opposite of what our parents had, um, that, You know, we, we just want that with all of our hearts that we start to, again, like we're saying, try to control and manipulate and even kind of manage it to the point where it becomes an idol and it becomes something that we, you know, can't realistically hold up even if we can create some sort of facade for it.

Sooner or later, our humanity and our spouse's humanity is going to come out and we'll realize like, no, no, no, it's marriage is not going to be this. Perfect. Flawless thing. That's totally the opposite of what our parents had. It might actually kind of resemble what they had, but with God's grace and you know, the right human formation and virtues, like we're saying, you can get through those things and you can end up being in a better spot than you are now, which has kind of been mind blowing for me as someone who comes from a broken family that like your struggles within marriage don't need to lead.

To like a separation and abandonment and divorce, but actually can lead to like a stronger bond, like really blew my mind. So yeah, I love your wisdom there. Absolutely. Um, and I just want to add to the reality of when you're just touching on with, um, healing and just the reality of, for me, I think what's, what people need to really hear and understand, because this is what transformed my life.

And it was when really pivotal players came into my life, which I call spiritual parents. Um, a profound bishop came into our life, uh, a founder of a, of a religious order came into our life who really mirrored the father's love and the mother's love to us, a reflection of that love in our life, and a married couple, Jim and Lois.

And um, and I think 18 years did I have with Jim and Lois before they passed away. So that's 18 years of formation, 18 years that I did not receive. Within my biological family, but what the Lord brought through these individuals was a safe place to be who I was made to be, a safe place to be loved. In my weaknesses, a safe place to be told that, um, you're going to make it through this.

It's going to be okay. You have what it takes. Always pointing me back to the truth. If I would not have had these particular people in my life, I wouldn't be who I am today. I wouldn't be where I am today because I needed a mother's love. I needed a father's love. Um, I couldn't, we're not made to be without a mother or a father's affection and love.

So even if it's not our biological parents. It's, it's somebody, right? The Lord brings people into our life to help journey with us into these places of our hearts and I needed that. I needed someone to journey with me into this place in my heart. I remember my spiritual mother said to me, Nicole, when you walked through that door, you came through as a little girl.

I was in my early thirties. You came in as a little girl, she said, but now I see you as a young woman. I literally had to mature and grow in all of those places in my heart. All the things I missed. Growing up, you know all those marker points that we need and if it honestly they believed in me They loved me really well and to be seen and known and delighted in and to and to feel like someone rejoices in your presence Like that's family life and not that family life is going to be perfect, but we all need to have that experience Because that kind of love is what heals and if it wasn't for that kind of love in my life I wouldn't be able to still be married.

I wouldn't be able to love the way I love. I wouldn't be free as to where I am now without these individuals loving me through these moments where I just needed compassion and tenderness and kindness so that I could have compassion and tenderness and kindness towards myself so I could begin to grow in my own emotional life and understand what my emotions actually mean.

So that was like, that was in combination with good counseling. That was solid, solid counseling that I had in my life. Um, that gave a language to what I was experiencing that started putting things into context and helping me realize like, no, actually, Nicole, that was a valid emotion as a child. Your anger, your sadness, you're crying yourself to sleep at night, you're longing for your mom and dad.

That was healthy and that was normal and that was good. I lived for years thinking that wasn't healthy, normal, and good. I don't know why. But that was in my mind, that somehow it was shameful to have a need for my mom and dad. It was shameful to, to have these emotions, the sadness, the sorrow, the grief, the anger, the hate, you know.

No, it was all healthy, normal responses to what I was experiencing. And to come into a place of embracing that and knowing that, that unlocks freedom. It unlocks the heart to be free. And like that's just been, that's been my experience and that's been part of my healing journey to be where I am now. I wouldn't be who I am without the individuals that came into my life, to mother and father me in these places specifically.

Um, and to share life with them, to share meals, to share conversations, to share the deep places in my heart, to have them pray with me into some of these areas with healing prayer, like just encountering love and those memories that I thought were dismal and dark. So it's like we, we all have these places.

And, um, and it's, it's a lifelong journey. Like it, it hasn't ended for me. There's so much more life and joy in my life now than I would have ever had 20 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago. Just gets better and better and better. It's like a fine wine. I tell everyone, it's like you get better with age.

It really, you really do. I love it. That's so hopeful. And I think we all need to hear that. And so thank you for, for sharing all that and how beautiful that you had people in your life to mentor you and to love you and to. In a very real way. Like you're saying, fill the gaps that were left by, you know, your parents, not to shame or put them down in any way, but it's truly what happened.

Like you didn't get that formation love that you needed. And so, yeah, it's beautiful that these are the people came into your life and were able to kind of compensate for that, which is, which is really amazing so much. I want to say that I want to get deeper into your healing journey though. Before I do something you said before, I just want to say this for everyone listening, especially if maybe you're married and you're struggling in your marriage or.

Maybe you will be one day. Um, the seven year mark, according to, um, data from like the U S census is actually the typical mark for separation. And then typically statistically for first marriages, I'm talking about the, um, uh, one year later at the eight year mark is when most couples get divorced. Uh, some people call it like the seven year itch.

So a lot of struggles can come up though. I don't understand why totally. Um, but it's interesting that in your story. That was, um, kind of the trend there as well. So if you are married and you're facing those struggles, or, you know, maybe you do in the future, um, understand that that is a pretty common occurrence and there's so much hope and help out there for you.

And we've had episodes on different resources like the Alexander house and different, you know, um, resources to help you through difficult times in marriage. But I just wanted to mention that cause I thought that was a really interesting correlation between the data, but I'd like to go deeper into your healing story.

So you already mentioned some things that were really helpful. helpful in healing for you. What else would you add in terms of kind of the biggest things that really helped you to heal from the brokenness from the wounds that you endured from your family's breakdown? Yeah. Um, most definitely, like I mentioned, counseling was a huge help.

Um, I even found, um, people can look this up, I'm, I'm not going to be willing to give a great explanation for this, but EMDR therapy, um, uh, with an incredible group out of Wyoming. Uh, that I worked with and was profoundly healing in the area when it came to these memories from my childhood around my parents divorce and the effects after that, I found to be incredibly helpful, um, for myself and also just, I think is so, so needed is just.

I'm gonna say it over and over again is spiritual families, spiritual parents, um, to love. And that was incredibly huge in my life, um, also for myself. Healing prayer was, um, something, and people might be asking, like, what is that? What does that mean? It's, it's just really a, um, a place of inviting Jesus into these moments, these memories of our life, and asking where he was in that situation, or how he saw me, or, or, um, just to experience, like, what was the truth in that moment?

Uh, when I was believing a profound lie that I was alone and that nobody was there to care for me and experiencing truth, the truth of where he was in that moment and how he saw me and who, and who I was in that moment, um, and experiencing that with my spiritual parents actually at times praying with me.

Um, so those were, these are really big areas. And for myself too, the sacramental life has been profound, uh, for me within the Catholic Church. It's just. Yeah. the gift of the Eucharist, the gift of, um, yeah, the anointing of the sick, just the gift of confession, having incredible priests who have a Father's heart and know how to see the truth in my own heart and call it out and call it forth.

Um, that has been incredible. Um, again, they're just You know, it's just, we're made for communion and intimacy. We can't heal by ourselves, we can't heal, I can't heal on my own. It's just not, it's not possible, we're not made for that. We're made for intimacy, and healing comes through authentic love, and it comes in a place of safety, and it comes in a place of belonging, um, and just knowing that, yeah, that you're good, and that you're seen, that you're known, and you're loved.

It's encountering that and I know when I first started encountering that, actually authentic love, I, I would walk away and feel desperate inside of like, how do I cling to this? How do I grasp to this? Like, because I was so thirsty for, for it, you know, even the good authentic love. I was so hungry for it.

It's at, at first responses, Oh my gosh, will I ever get this again? And learning, having to learn that no, this is steady. This isn't going anywhere. This is lasting. And because of coming from a divorce household, I didn't know that. I didn't know that, oh yeah, love can last. These people aren't going to leave me.

They're going to stay with me. Something's not going to happen and go wrong. Like always living with that in the back of my mind, not necessarily as conscious of it. The fear that someone is going to leave, something's going to happen, and yet it's steadfast love that, that is unchanging and when it's unchanging and our hearts begin to really Receive it and know it, it starts to transform.

It started transforming me from the inside out. So, you know, those are the things that have been profound in In my life, and it's been seasons, seasons of counseling, right? Yeah. As you enter new chapters of life, I've noticed in my own life, you know, brokenness from your past might surface again and you kind of need to go back into it.

It's not something that's like a one and done. Um, we like to talk about it here as like an infinite goal, kind of like fitness or health or physical health. It's like, it's not something you just like stop one day, like, Oh, I've reached the pinnacle of fitness. I'm now able to no longer work out and no longer eat healthy.

It's like, no, you need to stay on top of that. And I think it's similar, um, just with, you know, healing, um, emotional wounds as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I, I just, when I say one thing, I think I really learned from my. My spiritual father was 97 when he passed away, um, and I can remember in his 90s, and he came from a family that, um, that was secure and stable, that wasn't divorced, but he would share with me, he would wake up and say, there's just other areas of my heart that, that still need a little work, that the Lord's showing me that it needs a little bit of restoration.

He was in his 90s, and I thought, like it gave me such a beautiful example of like, this is normal. Like this is what normal actually is and this is what healthy actually looks like and that it's there's nothing there's there's no shame There's like no shame in the fact that there are other areas of our heart that will still need to be tended to like That it's okay, and it's good, and there, that's very freeing to come to a place of realizing this ache I feel, oh it's okay that it's there.

It's gonna be okay. This isn't going to, I'm not going to shatter because of it. Um, so to have visual representations of that in one's life, we, we need people in our life that are reflecting this truth to us. Because it, it literally starts to rewire all those places of our thinking and our way of seeing things to rewire it to the truth, right, to what is good and true and beautiful within our brains, within our minds, within our hearts.

So we're truly living life based on the truth, not some lie that we told ourselves when we were kids or that came from the wounds that we experienced. Beautiful. No, I, I love that. And I was curious for everyone listening, um, the EMDR therapy with a group in Wyoming, what was the name of the practice and if they have a website that you remember, I'd love to give that.

Yeah. It's Veritas Splendor in Cody, Wyoming. Okay. Sounds great. We'll link to that in the show notes, guys, in case you want to check that out as well. Nicole, I know we're close to the end of our time together here and I wanted to, uh, just if you would contrast a little bit your life, kind of how it was in the past and how it is now.

I know you'd say that like we're just talking about right now, we're always kind of a work in progress. There's always more work to do, more growth to, um, be done, but I'm curious kind of, yeah, now that you've gone through this healing journey for. You know, um, years now, what does your life look like now compared to how it was then?

Well, My life was defined by my parents, I, um, divorce. So my identity was defined by their divorce for many, many years. And now, my identity is defined by being a daughter, um, and knowing who I am as a daughter. So the difference now is that divorce no longer defines my identity. At all. What defines my identity, you know, is, is being a daughter and what defines my identity and understanding is now that I am able to, instead of being afraid of my emotions and feelings, I can now enter my emotions and feelings without fear that I can experience them, that I know what it means to actually regulate the emotions and return to joy.

Um, I know what it means to experience it. Freedom in my marriage and being able to love, I'm not perfect at any of it, but being able to embrace what's imperfect with, with just joy, with being okay, with knowing like, I'm okay. This is, I'm actually, this is actually normal, you know, to like have that healthy outlook on life.

Um, I'd also say just being able to be receptive and open and loving. the person I am now versus the person I was, right? High school has voted most likely never to get married. The contrast is very vast now, very different. It's not that I no longer am that individual. I am who I am. Um, but it's, it's the lies, it's the wounds that do not paralyze me and hold me in bondage anymore.

There's freedom. And I, in life, really, I'm learning over and over again that we're always coming into greater freedom, we're always coming into, into a greater understanding of ourselves, into, um, you know, the greater glory of our marriages, a greater, greater, like, restoration, if you will. Um, we go from femininity to femininity as, as a woman, right?

As a man, from masculinity to deeper masculinity. It's like, we're always going deeper into who we're made to be. So, that, to me, brings comfort in my life now, where, as before, I wanted the perfect picture of how life was supposed to be. The utopia, right? And, um, and, and within my own faith, the utopia is the perfection of theology of the body, if you will.

It's a journey there. It's a journey there. It's a lifelong journey. Um, and we get tastes of it on this side of heaven. So it's just, um, yeah, there's just more of a sense of being grounded. And knowing who I am now, your story is so inspiring. Thank you for all of that. And I wanted to ask you to kind of a difficult question.

If your parents were listening right now, what is it that you would want them to know? Oh, well, I would want them to know. I can so freely say this with, with the freedom of my heart of how much gratitude I have for their, for their lives and for the gift of their union, that I am a product of their union.

Um, and just how much I deeply love them. And I, I really, I really feel the love that I have for my parents now is, is really due to the love that I've received through spiritual parents, the healing I've received. So now I, I see them with so much love and compassion and mercy, um, and I don't have a quote unquote need.

For them to fulfill something in my heart that they're not capable of doing. Um, it's just more of a freedom to love them for who they are or where they are at. Um, yeah, so with my father in particular, I'd say great grace and my mother, you know, passed away several years ago. And, um, and, you know, with that said, if I can share just a moment of, uh, A beautiful story that happened at the end of my mother's life.

I always like to say that the Lord wrote the end of my parents story with, uh, His final word of like mercy and compassion and restoration. Just in the last Week of my mother's life, um, we had the gift to be with her and my father came every single day just to be present and, uh, during the last couple days we realized my mom was waiting for my dad to let her know it was okay to go home and so we let him know that.

And he came over. And he started to have this conversation with her, and I realized this was an incredibly profound sacred moment happening in front of my eyes. And as I, as I saw my father letting her know, like, it was okay to go home, um, and that he was giving her the okay. And within several hours she started to transition from this life to the next.

And my dad was there at the end and he said to her, it was my brother, my sister, we were all surrounding her bed. He said to my mom, he said, you know, you're surrounded by love. He said, you're surrounded by your family and we love you. He goes, and you're going home to the father's house. He goes, and it's okay to go home.

And uh, she breathes her last two breaths. And I would have never imagined my entire lifetime that my parent's story would be written by like restoration, mercy, and love. Um, it was, it was incredible, just incredible. And um, that forever deeply transformed. My heart and I am forever grateful for that moment.

And I say that I say that as a word of encouragement To everyone who's listening whether that happens with your parents isn't the point but what the point is is is that you're so deeply loved by the father and he desires to bring a restoration to every part of your heart and every every point of your life and It can look different.

It doesn't have to look like it looked like for me in the moment in that moment But it's no less as beautiful and as good, you know, in the way that he wants to bring love and life and restoration to your heart. So it's like, he wants that for you, is my point. As much as he wanted it for me, he wants it for everyone who listens as well.

Nicole, wow. What a beautiful ending. And man, definitely brought tears to my eyes hearing that about your parents. Yeah. Wow. No words. Really, really beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Before we close here, I just want to make sure if people want to reach out to you or make use of what you offer, um, first, what is it that you offer and how can people find you online?

I wanted you to, if you would give a little pitch for your book as well, um, the book you contributed to. Oh yeah. Undone, um, Freedom for the Feminine Heart. So The book basically is, um, it's a beautiful book. It's written by Carrie Daunt, um, and basically she put together a compilation of stories of women and healing from the areas of their identity as daughter, sister, bride, and mother.

And in mine, stories particularly in the area of motherhood and my own healing. So a little bit more of my story is in that chapter within her book. Um, so you're welcome to, to look it up actually. John Paul II Healing Center, uh, they'll have it online there as well. Um, if you want to check it out. And, uh, And also Undone, the women's conferences.

They have so many beautiful conferences that I would recommend. If you're on your healing journey, healing the whole person is beautiful. Restoring the glory, uh, for women there's Undone. Um, and yeah, there's just Yeah, a plethora of things available out there just to let you know that's there too. Um, as far as myself, yeah, I'm through John Paul II Healing Center.

I'm online. I'm on Instagram if you want to follow me on Instagram and see the, the life I live and the beauty of all the spiritual children, my husband and I have together. And, um, yeah, just, you can find me there. Awesome. Thank you so much. And we'll make sure to link to your Instagram account there as well and to the conferences.

I know you lead those conferences as well, and you're one of the speakers, which is really amazing. So guys, definitely couldn't encourage and endorse, um, the JP2 Healing Center enough and Nicole's work as well alongside Dr. Babchut. So, Nicole, thank you so much for, for being here, for sharing so vulnerably, for, yeah, just everything you've been through, um, now is, it's amazing.

It's a blessing. I don't know if you could have imagined that when you were going through it then, but all the pain and all the problems that you faced are now just like a huge blessing. You're able to truly guide, mentor, and even parents. Um, those of us like maybe behind the path. Um, so thank you. Thank you so much again for being here.

And I wanted to give you the final word. I'm just curious what final advice or encouragement would you give to everyone listening, especially people listening who maybe feel super broken and stuck in life because of the breakdown in their family. And their parents divorce. Yeah, I honestly want to say to you that, um, just like in my own life, divorce is not, uh, the final word in your life.

Um, it's not your identity. It's not who you are. That brokenness is not who you are. It's not your identity and it's not the final word in your story and that there's more being written with your life. Um, there's more to the story of your life and there's more to come. So just the reality of, of standing in that truth.

I know it's really hard when you're feeling the intensity of the pain. Internally, um, But just to, just to let you know that there is hope and there's healing and there's restoration and I'm going to be praying that your hearts will receive the goodness and the beauty and truth of who you are and that, that will come through the people who are currently in your life and maybe those that the Lord wants to bring into your life.

But be not afraid is the greatest words I have to say. Be not afraid of what you're experiencing. And to know there is life on the other side of it. I love talking with Nicole. She has so much wisdom. She's obviously reflected on this a lot. And it was really good to hear her story. If you want to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story. Reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neural basis.

Biological level makes your brain healthier by actively and constructively reflecting on your story. Writing your story is also helpful as well. There's been studies that have found that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are actually less depressed, less anxious, they're healthier and they're happier.

Uh, sharing your story with someone else. It's again, is really helpful in healing on a neurobiological level. And also you can give some guidance to someone who's maybe in a similar spot that you were in. Um, but maybe there are a few steps back on the path. So if you want to share your story, it's really simple.

Just go to restored ministry. com slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes. On that page, you'll be guided through telling a short version of your story, just filling out a form. And then we'll take that and we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article. So if you want to share your story, go to restoredministry.com/story, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parent's divorce or their parent's broken marriage, uh, share this podcast with them. You'll never know how grateful and how helpful it will be to them unless you actually do it.

And honestly, feel free to take like 30 seconds out and just shoot them a quick. text message to say, Hey, I was listening to this podcast, you know, it's been helpful for me and I just thought it'd be helpful for you given everything you've been through. No pressure to listen, but I know it will benefit you.

Something like that. You will be shocked at how grateful that person will be. Even if they don't say it now, I wish someone would have done that for me. In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#113: A New Therapy to Heal Trauma | Dr. Christopher Genn, DPT

Trauma, such as your parents’ divorce or extreme family dysfunction, doesn’t only affect your emotions. It affects your body too. It quite literally has physical effects. 

In this episode, Dr. Christopher Genn, a physical therapist and expert in applied kinesiology, explains how our bodies respond to trauma and how we can heal. Plus, we discuss:

• A new therapy to treat pain, trauma, and even rewire bad habits

• The story of a girl enduring her parents’ divorce who became physically debilitated 

• How we often lie to ourselves about our families, parents, and past - and why that’s a barrier to healing

Schedule a Consult with Dr. Genn

Get the Course: Broken to Whole

Visit Dr. Genn’s Website

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• The Emotion Code: How to Release Your Trapped Emotions for Abundant Health, Love, and Happiness | Dr. Bradley Nelson

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When you endure a trauma such as your parent's divorce or extreme family dysfunction, it doesn't just affect your emotions, it affects your body, too. It literally has physical effects, and in this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Chris Fergen, a physical therapist and expert in applied kinesiology, where He's able to explain how our bodies respond to trauma and what we can do to heal.

We also talk about things like a new therapy to treat pain, trauma, and even to rewire bad habits. He also tells a story about a girl who went through her parents divorce and how it literally had physical effects on her. We talk about the balance and healing between accepting where you are today, but at the same time striving for a better life and a healthier future.

You and finally we hit on how we often lie to ourselves about our families about our past and even about our parents And how that's super unhelpful how it's such a barrier to healing. So a lot of great stuff ahead. Stay with us Welcome to the restored podcast helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce Separation or broken family so you can break the cycle.

I'm your host Joey Pontarelli, this is episode 113. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback. One person left this review. They said, The community that's needed. I feel so grateful for this podcast. After my parents divorce, I was left with a lot of unanswered questions and feelings, leaving me confused and isolated.

My friends and family did their best to be present for me, and counseling helped. But this community of others who have walked the same road and chosen a different path, one of love, peace, and forgiveness, continues to encourage me years later, wonderful, practical hope giving. Again, we're so happy that it's been so helpful for you.

We do it for you. Again, my guest today is Dr. Christopher Gann. As a child, he experienced these extreme headaches and vomiting, which actually led to five brain surgeries, if you can believe that. And that sparked a passion in him to really better understand the human body pain and healing. And he graduated from Mercy College with his bachelor's in health science and a certified strength and conditioning specialist.

certification. He then completed various clinical rotations working in orthopedic, acute care, and pediatric, and doctor again became certified in something called functional movement systems, and he worked alongside this physical therapist who was trained by the American Academy of Manipulative Therapy, and that led him to learn these advanced manual therapy skills, including spinal and joint manipulation.

techniques. Eventually, he launched his own practice. It's called Be Not Afraid Physical Therapy. He launched it to better serve his clients, where he became fully certified in new therapy called QNRT and applied kinesiology, which you're going to hear a lot about in this episode. And in this episode, we do talk about God and faith.

And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows that We're not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, I just challenge you to listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode.

And with that, here's my conversation with Dr. Christopher Genn.

Dr. Genn, so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. so much for having me. I'm very excited. I'm super impressed with you. I mean, we've known each other for a while and just looking through all the work you've done. I'm again, very impressed and how you've really taken your own pain and transformed it into something to help other people.

And I was thinking about this before the show, a lot of times people who get in your line of work, they often do it for practical reasons because maybe they were really good. at it, or they have a passion for it, or it's just a way to pay the bills. But, and while some of that might be true for you, there's a much deeper reason.

You didn't learn about suffering. You didn't learn about pain and healing in a book. You've really lived it. And so I'd love to know your story. Sure. I mean, my story really started at a very young age, uh, before my memory started. And. In my first year of life, even, so, uh, I've been told that every month or so I'd have at least three or four days worth where I'd have 105 plus degree fevers and sweats and everything that goes along with fevers and, uh, the doctors and everybody that couldn't explain it and it was untreated and went as such for at least a year, a little bit more than a year, I think, and, uh, that subsided and Uh, then after that, uh, around five, uh, I started having real severe headaches and they were so bad.

I, they were accompanied by vomiting, profuse vomiting for, uh, days sometimes. And, uh, they'd come and go and they gradually got worse and we tried to have them evaluated and, um, my mom's a nurse and so she kept kind of pursuing it. The doctors at that time said, you know, they're just childhood migraines.

Take some, take some Tylenol and, you know, go rest. So, as it continued, uh, for months and months, and, uh, I'd be vomiting in the office, in the waiting room in the office and everywhere, uh, with a pounding headache. And they finally put me in for an MRI. And when they did that, they found a huge cyst the size of a plum in my five year old brain.

And, uh, that was causing many of those, those symptoms. So Uh, I was put into emergency surgery, but, uh, not quite emergency because they had to calm down the inflammation because it was so high. So, uh, after a couple of days, they put me into surgery and I ended up having five surgeries before the nervous surgeon was able to regulate the pressure within my head.

And, uh, I was blessed. Um, I was spared from having any seizure disorder at that time, which the neurosurgeon was very surprised. But through that suffering, uh, I really learned the, the gift. I was taught the gift actually by my parents. Um, and I learned it very much hand up firsthand to offer up the suffering, to offer it up for other people, to offer it up for people I loved and to really give it over to God at that time.

Cause I was not in control of it. I couldn't do anything about it myself. You know, there's nothing I could do to control the pain and the suffering. So, uh, I learned that there was a way out in a way, a way to make the pain meaningful to me. And that was through offering it up. And, uh, when I learned that, it really did help.

Um, and I have many, many blessings, many stories. Where I was very much accompanied, um, by Mary. At that time I, I learned that Mary was, you know, the mother of God in, in our Catholic faith. And as I learned that, uh, she was somebody I turned to. And she, she was always there for me. Could always turn as a as somebody who comforted me as a young child.

Um, and so that was, that was really the, the, the big suffering and it continued over the years, even after the surgeries. Every time I'd play sports, do something that I absolutely loved, I would be up the majority of that night with splitting headaches and vomiting. Even after the surgeries, but, uh, but I never stopped doing what I loved, but I would have to suffer afterwards.

And, uh, you know, they eventually did subside. Probably, I don't remember exactly the time frame, but by the time I was probably nine or ten, they more or less subsided. Anyway, jumpstart forward a bunch of years, you know, um, at the end of grad school. And, uh, we had our, I was married, end of grad school, we had our first child, Gianna.

And, uh, I started experiencing, I was training for a marathon, I was in great shape, etc. And, I started getting those same headaches. I hadn't had that intense of a headache since I remember when I was like, you know, a young child and I said, man, anyway, I kept pushing it off. They're just allergies, you know, it was allergy season.

I had allergies before and, uh, I went to the doc and he said, well, you could treat it as allergies if you want to see how it goes. Anyway, it only got worse. It didn't help at all. So I'm out at my in laws and they see a chiropractor. So I. I was never raised with like natural medicine, but my, my wife, she was very much raised that way.

So I was out and my in laws visiting for Easter, I believe it was, and I was getting my headaches. I couldn't do anything about it. Nothing touched them. And I was vomiting all night that night. I said, and my in laws were like, you got to go see. Uh, you know, Dr. Kathy, who they had seen and they said she'll be able to help at least figure out what's going on.

I was like, okay, you know, I'll take anything. So she's a chiropractor who does muscle testing. And that was my first introduction. So, uh, she was, she took me in as a friend of theirs. So she didn't even do like a full evaluation. She just took me in and said, let me just see what's going on. And she did her evaluation and she knew nothing about, about my history.

And she said, uh, is there a reason that your cerebral spinal fluid, uh, which by the way, my cyst when I was a kid was filled with cerebral spinal fluid. That's the type of cyst it was. And she said, your levels are off the charts. There's something wrong, and I was like, How did you just figure that out?

He's like, you know nothing about me. Yeah, wow. And she just did muscle testing, and I was like, Yeah, there's a reason. You know, I have a, I have a shunt, and it drains the cyst. You need to get that checked out. So I was like, all right, I need to, you know, I went back to my neurosurgeon, and, uh, Sure enough, um, the tubing had corroded, and it was no longer functioning.

So I had a flare up, so. At that point, I had never experienced that. I was at the end of grad school, as I said, physical therapy. I was led to physical therapy, and I loved what I was doing. And then this stopped, kind of stopped me in my tracks and said, Whatever she just did, I have no idea what she just did.

Whatever she just did was meaningful because, like, that gets to more than just, Oh, these are your symptoms, let's cover it up. It was like, no, she could tell what was the most important thing. By just muscle testing and evaluating my entire system as a whole and so that was a start and I said at that point I was I graduated and then I said, you know, I'm gonna hand this over to God I'm I'm gonna say, you know lead me to learn something like that that I can really help people and Do it in your time and I kept looking for opportunities to learn Any type of muscle testing.

And, uh, And all the doors kept closing for me. And I was like, alright, I'll put it on the back burner for now. And I kept looking into it again. And, nope, not this time. So Looking back, I have many ideas as to why I didn't learn it quite right away. I had, I had some many, many things to learn about prior to that, but, but eventually a couple of years ago, uh, it was the right time.

And I launched pretty much as my, as my wife told everybody, pretty much back into like graduate school almost. And I launched full steam ahead into a hundred hour course in applied kinesiology. And. That's really what allowed me to see what she did and even further than that allowed me to realize the impact of what I went through back then and how it's actually interconnected with what my family was going through at the time and the pain and suffering that was there and how that had impacted my suffering.

Uh, on a physical level and, and ways that, for instance, when I was at one of the seminars, again, these guys don't know anything about us or whatever, you know, and we're testing each other. And, uh, you know, he isolates a spot here. Um, on my head where the cyst, where the, where the cyst happened to be, um, he didn't know that, but he said, you know, um, and he narrowed in some, some, uh, some emotions, some things that, you know, were, were affecting that region.

And he said, you need to address what's going on there. And I was like, you know, in my head, like all these thoughts, I'm like, what, whoa, like, are you kidding me? Like, and I told him, I was like. I have a, I have a VP shunt in my head that drains a cyst that I've been told is pretty much where you're pointing and he's like, that's not surprising and he had been doing this kind of work for years and I was like, that's not surprising.

I was like, yeah, it is. Are you kidding? I mean, that brings a whole new light to like everything I've ever experienced, like And he's, and, uh, and that was the opening of my door personally, uh, to actually experience what I had been starting to learn and, uh, have now been graced to continue to experience personally the healing, uh, of that type of work because the physical stress that I was under was a, uh, just a presentation.

Of what I was kind of experiencing around me at the time and my body trapped in and, uh, and has affected me in many, many ways since then, uh, that I've come to learn through some of the work that I've experienced. Incredible. Thank you for sharing so vulnerably and I, man, I want to go deeper into a couple of things.

Uh, one point I just wanted to make is it's beautiful how your pain didn't crush you, but you allowed it to transform you. Um, sadly, you know, you could look around the world today and see people where their pain crushes them. It truly does hold them down. Um, but it's beautiful how you didn't let that happen.

And you, by God's grace, as you'd say, we're able to transform that. And then now even use that as a way to help other people because you understand pain on a deep level. You know, again, some people understand it kind of intellectually, but they've never suffered much. You've suffered a lot, which I think would totally change if, you know, a patient comes You're helping them through some problem they're facing, whether it's physical or emotional.

You get that on a deep level, so that's really beautiful. I also admire the balance you had. And I know when you were younger, this is maybe more of your parents kind of instilling it in you, but how you had somewhat of an acceptance of where you were. It's like, okay, I'm going through all this pain, like I'm throwing up.

I'm, you know, have these horrible headaches, like all this stuff that you were dealing with. Um, but at the same time you were striving to find a solution. And I think that that that's a tricky balance because I think on one end we can just give into resignation thinking, well, my life is just always going to be this way.

All I can do, and I know we're going to get into this, but all I could do is really manage it. Um, or, you know, kind of even just having this ultra focus on finding some sort of utopia. A solution that will make, you know, life perfect, neither of those are healthy, obviously. And so it's cool to see kind of how you had the balance between the two.

But what I want to focus on and feel free to comment on any of that is just the pain in your family. Um, that, uh, stood out to me, especially given our audience who comes from broken families. So I'm just curious, like, what was that that impacted you not only emotionally, but also physically whatever was going on in your family?

First of all, I want to touch on the acceptance. You know, because, uh, I mean, anybody knows that if you stub your toe, you know, and if you're in the middle of something really important, you can put that aside and focus on what's really important in front of you. If you're alone and you're doing something, you stub your toe.

That's like the end of the world. You're like, oh my gosh, that hurts so bad. But if you're like, you know, in an interview for instance, and you stub your toe on something, you can kind of, you know, push down your reaction a little bit and accept the fact that, you know what, it hurts, but I'm okay. And, uh, you know, that's, that's a hard place to be except pain and except suffering and realize that that's actually not the end of the story.

It's actually the launching pad, right? Pain and suffering in our life allows us to grow. Anybody who exercises, right? When you exercise, what do you have to do? You have to stress the muscle. You have to strain the body. You have to push. Past the limit that you think you can handle, but what do you get out of that?

You get the awareness that you can actually do more than you thought you could an hour ago. You get the, you get the increased growth of muscle. You get the increased ability of your body to do more, to go further, and to experience greater heights of enjoyment. But if you just think, I'm stuck here and I can't endure any more suffering.

Then there's no more growth. And so yes, your point of accepting that pain and suffering, whatever it is, whether or not it's a physical pain of suffering or whether or not it's purely emotional and you're just having total anxiety or deep depression. Um, you know, accepting the fact of where you are is a huge first step.

Uh, and, and that always. And I had a quick scenario. I had a quick, I had a gentleman in, and uh, first time working with him. And he, he, we evaluate what's going on, etc, etc. And I, and I ask him, and I go, You know what was going on between three and five years old? And he goes, I don't have much memory at all of my childhood, but uh, And then he thinks, no.

He comes out, he's like, Oh, but my, you know, my dad was an alcoholic and, and he died when I was six, but you know, he was a good father. And through my testing, I'm like, yeah, but your system doesn't believe he was a good father. So I go, so, so could you just say that again for me? And he goes, my dad was a good father and I muscle test him, which is testing whether or not that statement is congruent with his entire being because our system responds to statements like that.

And so consciously, he's told himself, because it's important for us to have a good father, he told himself that my dad was a good father. He doesn't have many memories of it, but he was an alcoholic and there was tension there. So I said, say that again, and his arm goes weak, he goes, wait a second, does that mean That my subconscious, my entire being doesn't actually agree with that statement.

I said, that's exactly what that means. And that was the root of it. Um, that he didn't accept the fact that, oh, my father actually was not a good father. And if we don't accept what reality is, we can't then address it. We can't allow healing if we don't actually look at it and see what, for what it is. So I didn't know what was going on in my family back then.

I had no idea. I had no conscious awareness at all, really. Uh, looking back, I mean I thought I had a great family life. I thought it was peachy, um, sort of speak. But, uh, but after having worked with my parents and, and, and the work that I do as well, and work, having work done on myself, I realized so many things are linked back to that time frame and linked back to difficulties within my parents marriage, infidelities linked in my parents marriage.

Uh, and generational sins and difficulties and patterns of impurities and infidelities within marriages in my parents, my father's line, and how that actually has impacted my genetics, you know, things that get passed down genetically, right? It's they actually can be patterns of sin or patterns of bad decisions, and they can get passed on and they get trapped in our tissues.

And so, you know, looking back, you know, there, there were those patterns in my, in my parents, um, relationship at the time. And I was kind of, I was kind of like the, uh, the scapegoat, so to speak. Or I had to be the person to, to regulate. And when stuff was going on and I couldn't regulate I had severe headaches, severe symptoms, or later on I had, you know, I had the high fevers early on in my first year of life, you know, these things were probably related or actually definitely were related to some of the things that were going on in my parents, uh, marriage in their, in their experience.

And so, you know, learning that now it links a whole lot together for me. Um, and it allows me to, to, to actually address things that I wasn't fully even conscious of because again, I didn't have memories at one years old. I don't even have members at three, four years old when I started the other symptoms.

So you know, families that are broken, there's many more repercussions. And so often we don't allow ourselves. To accept them or allow ourselves to say, you know what, my family situation is not good. And as a five year old, I can't really do anything about that. And it's not my role. You know, I took on, and I very much even consciously took on, from a young age, the responsibility to kind of manage the family.

to balance the family. And I was always extremely aware of, um, my mom's mood, or my mom's situation, or I always had to kind of watch out there, or, um, even amongst my siblings, I would try to kind of be the peacemaker. Um, or I was never really a part of the discord. I felt like it was my role to accept it, and then kind of My body couldn't take it anymore and it would erupt.

So that's a little bit about, you know, makes so much sense. No, it's so fascinating. And gosh, so many lessons I'm learning from you. A couple of things I wanted to mention one, just this fact that we lie to ourselves, like that patient that you had fascinating, right? And I'm just thinking in my own life, man, how often have I just lied to myself or what's coming out of my mouth just isn't, doesn't align with reality.

It doesn't reflect reality. It's just not actually true. That's one thing. Um, the other thing too, is just. Please. Yeah. And the other thing I was just going to mention is this whole field of epigenetics, just to make sure everyone, because I think sometimes what people, when they hear some of the things we're talking about, they may think that, well, that's kind of like phony.

It's not real science. It's like, no, no, this is real science. Like this whole field of epigenetics, from my understanding of it, I'm not, you know, like you clinical, medical, medical, Signs trained, but my understanding of it is it's looking at the ways our genes express themselves Based on our environment and an example that was kind of given to me is you might in your genetics You might have a predisposition to be an alcoholic but if your environment never kind of triggers that in you you could go through your life and not struggle with alcoholism or you can Be in a really difficult situation and then start becoming an alcoholic in order to cope with the pain in your life Exactly so Right, so in this field of epigenetics, from what I understand, it's like, it's, we're still discovering so much right now, and so, feel free to speak to any of that, but yeah, lying to ourselves, it's super real, I didn't realize it until you just said it.

Think about a lie detection test, right? Everybody has a basic understanding, generally, of a lie detection test, you know, you're hooked up and, and you, They look on a graph and see whether or not there's a physiological change when somebody's telling the truth or when somebody's telling a lie. And they start with something basic, which is actually how I start explaining it with people too.

My name is Chris, and that's a truth. And my subconscious, my entire being, should respond to that as a truth. And so, if I said, my name is Josh, my name's clearly not Josh, and so that would be a lie for me. And not only is it a lie, it actually has a physiological effect on me, so it changes my heart rate and you can see that it changes my ability of my nervous system to function.

And so that's how the muscle test then works. It inhibits the nervous system to respond normally, and which is why lying is not good for us. But physiologically, it brings us down. And, you know, you said you stated that fact of the epigenetics so perfectly because Some, some people argue whether or not, you know, these things are real and things, but it's the expression of, you, you may have a predisposition to, uh, cancer or predisposition to different types of cancer or predisposition to any number of things, um, including then the emotional side of things, depression that runs in families, people know things like this runs in family, you have a predisposition to it, but if you live a healthy lifestyle, have a of well functioning, stable environment, and, uh, you're not triggered, you may never fall into that, but you are more readily triggered, um, by certain things, and then It's when those thing gets triggered a time and time and time again that then it creates real issues and you see the body and the person breaking down because it can't because the same triggers are there people are rejected and then so and so a boyfriend rejects them later in life and then you know and then you end up having somebody who just gets rejected a time and time again the boyfriend keeps cheating on them you have a different boyfriend he cheats on you have a different boyfriend he cheats you Wow, and then you get married and then that guy leaves and cheats on you again and people are like, why is this always happening to me?

And part of it is, is actually the suffering that they almost bring it on because they've never addressed the fact that they're okay having a faithful partner because their system is patterned to respond to, I actually want rejection. And that's like, when people come to the realization that their entire being, except for their conscious brain, is asking for rejection, it's like, so backwards.

But our nervous system can get so screwed up, because it's been hurt so badly, that it can be patterned to want the opposite of what our conscious brain thinks. We want We want to get rid of that stuff, the total rejection, and we want somebody who's going to be faithful. And the work that I do with the QNRT, the Quantum Neurological Reset Therapy, is doing exactly that.

It's saying, listen, consciously, you are seeking after a faithful relationship. But subconsciously, your system is saying, nope, I'm not letting go of that rejection. I'm not accepting that rejection that I had when my father left me or left our family. I'm not accepting that. I'm not letting go of it. I'm not forgiving it.

And I no longer, and I'm not even saying I'm okay moving on or moving forward. And when your subconscious is trapped there, you want to be ready to say, no, consciously I do want to let go of that. I do want to forgive that. I'm, I'm actually at that point where I'm ready to do that and as long as we have that conscious acceptance of that, then we can do the work that I do and we can say, okay, let's do the training of the brain in a couple minutes and let's help to repattern that part of the system that says, okay, I'm going to let go of that.

I'm going to forgive him and I'm going to be okay with having a faithful partner. Okay. And it's so powerful, the nervous system. If somebody is not consciously ready to forgive that person, and I do the reset, helping them to actually be okay with forgiving them, but they're not actually willing to forgive, they could be sick for days or weeks because it creates such a non congruency.

Their will, their desire is not there. Which is why I always have to say, as soon as we come up with what's bothering the body, are you willing to say, I forgive my father for leaving us? Are you willing? If they're not, we wait. And you have to come to the time where, and we can do other things to assist.

But if they're not ready, the system is so powerful and has so much So much there that it'll create real discord and they can be, they can be, you can get suffer tremendously after that. So it's testament to the power of our nervous system. Wow. So fascinating. What I hear you talking about, we've talked about a little bit on the show is like repetition, compulsion, how we end up repeating behavior that harmed us.

Um, in our own lives, you know, and you gave the example of infidelity, rejection. Another example, kind of going back to alcoholism is if you grew up with an alcoholic father, you know, you swear, I will never be like that and don't want that in my life. And then years later in your life, you end up. becoming alcoholic and like we talked about, there's obviously the biological component, the predisposition, but there's so much more going on there.

And, uh, so it's, it's really, really fascinating. And one of the interesting statistics that have all has always blown my mind is how people who come from broken, especially divorced families, we're less likely to get married. We're more likely to get divorced. Um, I've even seen some data, I don't have a lot on this, but I've seen some data that says if you were.

You know, in a family where mom or dad cheated on the other, you're more likely to have an affair yourself, um, which obviously is so scary for people who want, you know, a beautiful, faithful marriage. And so it's um, it's just fascinating to see that these things that we go through in our lives are programmed into us, even perhaps down to our DNA.

And unless we kind of course correct, unless we reprogram, which I believe is totally possible, uh, we'll end up going down those similar paths that we truly fear that we're doomed to go down. Even though we don't want that. So I hear you talking about all these things that are super relevant to, to, um, to people like us, right?

And that's the ACE study. It's a very, you know, well known, you can look it up, study on adverse childhood events and what that actually does to our health. Yes, our patterns like you just mentioned, but also just our health. People who experience one or more than one, obviously as the number increases with the number of adverse childhood experiences, the rate at which their health declines is more intense the more you experience adverse events.

Because There are more trauma that our body cannot normalize from. And so that study shows, yeah, that they'll have more Again, remember exactly the, the diseases or illnesses that it states, but, um, they'll have more, uh, you know, sleep disturbances and some common one and asthma and, uh, chronic illnesses and headaches and, you know, migraines and, and various different things.

Um, the, the percentage will be higher in the people who have broken families or any type of adverse childhood experience. Um, so yeah, it increases our rate of patterning. Um, To speak to that too for, for my personal, right? Yeah. I'm getting married and all I want is a, is a, I want to be a faithful, you know, uh, husband and, and I don't want to, uh, you know, do any harm to, to my wife or to my, to my kids or repeat any patterns of, and, uh.

And of course, I didn't even know at that point when I'm getting married really of, of some of the, um, some of the infidelities and different things in my, my family history. But, uh, you know, I had a real struggle personally, uh, to be open and honest with everybody, you know, with pornography for years. And, uh, and it was a real hard struggle and battle.

Um, and it really affected all parts of my life. And. When I get, you know, when I'm getting married, I'm like, you know, I'm, I had been, you know, clean for a while. And I'm like, I'm never doing this again. I'm so done. And I'm over that. Right. And I'm thinking, you know, it's all smooth sailing and, you know, and, uh, sure enough, it creeps back into my marriage and, uh, it creates real, you know, I can see the immediate effects on particularly my wife.

Um, and, uh, You know, the patterns and actually a perfect example of how our body traps things. So this was actually just last night, uh, my wife, we're sitting at the dinner table. She's, uh, doing totally fine. Uh, and then all of a sudden she's like, I have this severe pain in my neck and it's like killing me.

And it stayed there for, uh, you know, a couple of hours and she's like, I can't do anything right now. So I evaluated her quickly. I said, you know what, uh, you need to do a, there's a technique Callahan, a psychologist, uh, came up with a technique of helping using tapping techniques to activate different parts of the system to clear traumatic events and clear trauma from the body.

And it's a wonderful technique anyway. I said, you know what, you need to do a trauma release from that time. Uh, when. I, that you found out and we talked about and, uh, it came to the, came to light that I was struggling with pornography again in our marriage. And she goes, wow, that's, that's crazy. And she goes ahead and we do the technique, which takes all of a few minutes.

And, uh,

she's like, I mean, I've experienced this a number of times, but that's crazy. It's entirely gone. And it was 100 percent I was gone for a few hours and she was like, it's totally gone. And she knows how much sense that makes, but she goes, wow, because we've been working through the repercussions of, and that's an unfaithfulness on my part to our marriage.

And I learned that that was. You know, in my, in my past, my, my grandfather and other issues going back and, um, and man, yeah. And, and there was no part of me that wanted to do any of that, uh, but it was a weakness and, uh, sure enough, it showed up again. And you know, I always want to be like. You know, I got this.

I can do this. It's no big deal. Uh, you know, I won't do it again. As I said before, say, mm, yeah, we can do that for only so much period of time before somehow we break down, uh, whether or not it's emotionally, whether or not it's physically, um, or we get really sick. Um, and so, uh, so yeah, that, that was just a powerful example of.

Of how really hurtful things that we go through can, can present with physical symptoms and then They can actually go away almost instantaneously. And I see that every day in my practice, which is pretty wild. That is so wild. Well, man, thank you so much for sharing so vulnerably about, you know, those past juggles and wow, like I'm blown away and So fascinated by your practice and how you're helping people.

And I have a million and one questions, but, um, it's clear, you know, you anticipate some of the questions so well, just this connection between our bodies and our emotions. Like there's clearly the connection there when, you know, we go through trauma in life that doesn't have a physical component in the immediate, but it certainly affects our bodies.

And you gave numerous examples there, which is, is amazing. Um, You've already spoken to this, but I want to give you a chance to mention it further, just if, you know, outside of your own story, how you've seen people who come from broken families, you know, struggle with physical, even pain or physical symptoms.

Again, you've spoken to this already, you mentioned the ACE research as well, but I'm just curious if you've seen anything in your own practice of what drove me. Even further to, uh, and I think that's why I needed to wait to, I needed to be a physical therapist who honed his skills with his hands and honed his techniques with how to address physical side of symptoms.

And I worked extremely hard on that. Um, and I was gifted. I worked under somebody who was really skilled with his hands for a good number of years, and I learned a ton and through that work. Because, not to boast, but I, I was told, and, and I saw good results. So I knew that I had some skill there, but there were plenty of people I couldn't make any change with whatsoever.

And they would come in every week with the same exact pain. Might get better for a couple of hours, maybe a few days eventually, but they're racked with it at time and time again. And I said, You know, I went into physical therapy to help people. I love the human body. I love learning about it. And I love it even more now that I'm learning even deeper.

The more I learn, the more I love it. It's amazing. And when I started seeing these people, I'm like And I take my work as ministry. As, you know, God sends me my clients. for me to assist in their life. And I had these people that would come time and time, I couldn't do anything to help them. And I said, there's got to be more.

And I started my practice. And then I finally started learning applied kinesiology. And I started having people with the techniques that I was learning refer to me because they would come in and they would say, I'd say, alright, you know, tell me a little bit about your story, what's going on. And I said, well, I don't really have anything physically wrong with me that I know of, really, but I have a lot of trauma in my past, and I, I just can't really function.

I can't get a job, I, I, I just can't function. And I'm like, I can realize I'm a physical therapist, right? And I'm like, Lord, I guess, I guess maybe they missed the physical component of the therapist. Well, you're obviously referred to by so and so because I helped them with similar things. I was like, all right, well, let's go.

And, and, and I learned through those people coming to me that yes, doing work through the physical, you can actually help. And, uh, so to back up just a little bit before I really started getting into that, there was, um, there was this one girl, uh, that stands out in my mind very much. And, uh, she came in, I did not work with her initially.

I didn't do the initial evaluation. One of my coworkers did. And, uh, I saw her, I think the second or third time and, uh, she would have. She wouldn't be able to walk. She could barely stand on her own two legs. She went from a very very active, functioning girl, to, I can't move. She would, uh, you know, lie down on the table, and you would muscle test the legs and stuff, and, you know, like, you have strength.

You know, you have strength. You go up and stand, and she'd like collapse. And you'd have to support her. And some days, uh, you'd have to have two people holding her, and she'd be trembling. Her legs would total tremble. And, uh, it was just like heartbreak. And it could, uh, in that setting where I was, I really couldn't, I really couldn't do that much.

Well. Uh, there was one evening where I was all alone with, with that, uh, in the, in the clinic. So it was quieter. So she could kind of focus. And uh, I had just started learning some of the applied kinesiology stuff and I was doing my business part time. And so I was there and uh, I said, you know, do you mind if we do some, some muscle testing?

And she was like, yeah, whatever, whatever works, you know, that's, and uh, yeah, anyway, I came up with a few things and I said. I said, you know, what's going, what's going on at home, you know, you know, what's, what's, what's bothering you so much at home, what's, what's the struggle there, uh, and she started, she, you know, started really breaking down and her parents were in the middle of a divorce and it came out of nowhere, I guess.

And uh, And they were in the middle of the hardship of a divorce. And I was like, oh. It's like my heart just, you know, totally went out to her. Um, and at that time, there was really nothing at that time that I knew to be able to do to actually help her in that case. I just knew like, man, you know, we can do X, Y, Z, any number of things, and I did everything we could.

Some improvement. Um, and then she'd come back in again, totally just, and then she started getting a little bit better and, uh, and he started seeing the direct connection with her environmental stability that she would report and how she could actually use her legs again. And then she might come in with a huge flare and there was again, you know, some kind of discord there.

So it was, and it was incredible. My first, probably my first. Extreme case that was like night and day between what was going on fully functioning, totally fine, and then something hit her. Bam. Can't use my legs. It was a really sad case, but she did eventually kind of get through it. Um, and you know, you know, at the end of the day, did she get through it for now?

Yeah, but chances are, uh, she still has a lot of that hurt in there. Uh, she's learned how to navigate it, which is an important survival tactic. Um, deep, true healing is what we, what we probably want more because it allows us actually freedom from that and, and to be free from the bondage of, of that, of that hurt, that wound, uh, and allow that to, to, to heal.

So that was one, that was one really big thing for me. And then I wrote down another one. What was the other one? Oh yeah, so early on too, I was like, I had this client who, like every October, so three years in a row, she would come in from October to like the end of November, come in for like six weeks treatments.

And by the third year, it was the same exact thing. And I was looking, looking at her chart, I'm like, it's like the same time of year. So this was before I got into any of this. This was just, I was, you know, a regular physical therapist. I turned and looked at her and I was like, Did anything happen this time of year a couple years ago?

You know, I started seeing you three years ago and you came last year for the same thing about the same time and you're coming back this year. You know, just wondering, did anything happen? Because you could have seasonal triggers. You know, in the autumn time of year, the leaves change, everything changes in the air.

That was her trigger. And again, she broke down at that time and said, yeah, she got her husband left her. And I was like, wow. And that was three years prior to me even getting into any of this and I was like, and you know, she let it out. And the thing about that was that the therapy manual therapy technique that I was doing with her actually helped her to release some of that.

She wept, she cried, she spoke it out. And I was doing just normal manual therapy, uh, release of certain nerves and muscles and. cranial bones and different things I was doing. Uh, and she really processed. Anyway, I was there at that clinic for three years after that. And I didn't see her again. So, um, it was just neat to see that too.

It's like, yeah.

Unbelievable. Like I think some people listening right now are maybe having a hard time believing, honestly, believing this. And it's . You can't actually fully, and I believe you believe it, and, and I a hundred percent, I'm like really? Um, understanding of people who are like, dude, you're nuts. I, that's crazy.

Talk. And I'm totally understanding that because it is, it sounds nuts until you experience it. And, you know, as soon as somebody experiences it and says, My pain is entirely gone after you just did that and you didn't touch my arm. It's not until that time that they come back and they say, You know what, I haven't thought about what happened, what came up and um There was actually a whole lot more to that time frame that I didn't even realize that that day I didn't allow myself to get to, but there's actually a whole lot more.

And I was like, great, you don't even need to tell me, but that's great. You know, but, and, and, and not only that, now that I am in it, you know, I see, uh, One of the other women that I had treated for multiple years and, uh, another case that I was just, I felt totally Useless almost. I could be, you know, she loved me as a therapist.

She said, you're amazing. And in the back of my head I'm like, I, I am so thankful that you think I'm doing you such good and I'm here for you. But I know I could, somebody or something or some other thing could do you so much better. Because, uh, and, uh, she was just stuck in a pattern and she had a lot of hurt and IBS, colon issues, and all of these digestive things, they're so commonly linked.

to indigestible situations. We talk about stuff like, oh yeah, our digestion's off. Um, but like if you have a real bad disease in the digestive tract, it's normally linked to some type of indigestible something that happened in your life. You can't digest a particular event or a whole situation in your life.

I can't comprehend that. That's just too bad for me to even put a. Um, and anyway, so yeah, there's, there's examples just left and right that, that just are incredible. Yeah, no, we need to tell you the camera, I think it's fascinating. It's so good. And my goodness. And I think one resource I would recommend for people who want to learn more about a lot of this, I know maybe not specifically your field, but just overall how trauma affects our bodies and emotional wounds is the body keeps the score by Bessel van der Kolk.

Like that will kind of give you the scientific proof, a much deeper explanation than we can do. Expand your thought process of how these things actually affect us. I think everyone listening, you know, unless your life has been like pain free, which there's very few people like that, uh, can probably point to something in our life that resonates with one of the stories that you told, you know, just like physical ailments or pain that connects to some sort of emotional trauma or, yeah, and in a lot of cases we haven't been freed from that, unfortunately.

And I, I wanted to talk to you a bit about just this whole, um, tension when it comes to healing. So on one end. There's maybe this unrealistic goal that some of us have that we want, like, our life to be this utopia, to be this perfection, to have all the pain ridden from us and just be able to function perfectly.

Like, obviously that's not realistic, but we somewhat have a desire for that, right? But on the other end, there's plenty, probably more people who just give in to resignation. Just think like, well, my life is always going to be this way, like we said before. And all I can really do is just survive. All I can really do is just get by.

I'm curious, um, what's like that realistic goal or expectation between those two extremes? Like, how can we, you know, on one hand not despair and give in to like, well, this is hopeless, but on the other hand not, maybe hope that all of our problems in life and our pain will be, um, resolved, though there is a possibility, I firmly believe that there is a possibility that a lot of it can be.

So I'm just curious, like, what's the right goal, expectation? It can be a fine line in a way or, and it's very personal too, um, depending on, you know, what you're suffering with, um, you know, some chronic diseases and stuff. Yes, you're not, you might not get back to like 100 percent where you have a super strong immune system, let's say, or you have a super robust um, uh, system that helps keep you from anxiety or you have a super robust system that, that you're never depressed ever again.

Um, yeah, there is a expectation or a realization that, you know, life is not without any hardship. And as I briefly mentioned before, I think a lot of our society at this point, it's so geared towards comfort, towards convenience, towards no pain, that we actually, we tell ourselves and we begin to believe that That's actually possible and I think some of us are starting to realize that if everything is entirely convenient and 100 percent done for us, we become like, you know, dwindling, you know, Can't barely function and do anything for ourselves anymore.

We don't know how to do anything because everything's done for us. Um so II think it's important in the healing process to remember that it takes work. It's actually a never ending process of of living right. So, living is experiencing. We're we're the center of our beings is our heart Right. Our heart is is the center of it all.

We're we're made for love Right. We're we're made for relationship We're made for connection We're made for unity And you know as a as a catholic too, you know, we're made to unite back to our heavenly creator Who created us out of love? and Uh, which is also why when we experience hurt from a loved one or from a relationship where there should be love, those hurts hurt a whole lot deeper because they hit us at our core.

Yeah, our heart suffers greatly, not by those people who we don't really care about or don't care much about us. Those don't really hurt us all that much. We can just kind of shrug 'em off and it's not really a big deal actually. But when those hurts come from the ones that we've loved or should love us, our parents, or our loved ones of any other nature, those are deep wounds.

I also deeply believe, because of the way I see people come in and out of my practice, those who know that we cannot really rely on man, because we'll always be disappointed. We are all Imperfect human beings And if we seek for full connection and full satisfaction out of somebody else any other human One it's not fair to that other human Because they can't possibly provide everything that you need And two it's not fair to yourself because you'll always be disappointed So there's You A whole, a spot, a center of our heart that really only somebody outside of our fallen human being can fill something, somebody greater than us, who, who, at the end of the day, you know, loves us into being to experience.

Yes, there's hardships, but to experience the growth that can come from that. Um, so there's that expectation of. It will never be perfect. If we're thinking that, oh, it'll be everything will be totally fine. I'll get through this Point in my life and then boom, you know, it'll be great. Yes. That's an unrealistic expectation there will always be hardships, but What we want to be able to do is to be able to tolerate the hardships to be able to respond to the hardships not necessarily with so much anger and reactionary Ness But maybe with, okay, I really don't like the fact that, you know, that for whatever reason my, um, sibling, uh, is going behind my back and talking terrible things about me.

No, I don't like that. But I don't need to respond like what I used to respond to. I can take that suffering and I can actually be okay with it. Not just tell myself I'm okay with it. My entire body can be like, okay. I'm okay that they're talking bad about me. I'm okay that other people don't think I'm great.

I'm okay with people thinking that I'm really not a good guy. It's like, but if you're doing the best you can, you're doing the best you can. So there's like that expectation of, yes, it takes hard work, but what you're doing is you can change your reaction to what's in front of you. There is a possibility, there is an openness to changing your reaction, which then changes your life.

It's first an outlook, an acceptance of where you're at, and then having a realistic outlook, saying, Okay, and honestly, if you have a realistic outlook, the level of improvement is actually normally even greater than what your realistic outlook is. If you're open to that healing, and I think that's the next step is, is openness and accepting reality, then being willing to do something about it and to change your situation.

Um, and then to be open to the healing, whatever that might mean for you. So good. Yeah. And I love the whole idea of, you know, post traumatic growth. you know, being stuck in the past and always being like handicapped in a sense. And even if, you know, let's say physical ailments can't be perfectly cured, there is a way to kind of move through them and live with them.

That is truly healing where you can become a more whole functional person, even if the, you know, that particular, uh, ailment, illness, trauma, whatever, isn't totally gone. Or maybe a better way to say it is you still have the scars from it because we can't remove the scars. We can't remove, you know, fully.

Maybe all the negative effects, but you can grow some mastery around it. You can heal the root cause to where it's not really affecting you as much anymore. And I've seen that in my life and the lives of other people who've, you know, worked with people like you've been through trauma therapy, you know, maybe one minute they're depressed, they're cutting, they're like suicidal.

And then they work on healing those root. Wounds next minute. They're, they're good. And that, you know, they're not tempted to cut. They're not tempted to suicide. They're not constantly depressed. Like, yes, maybe there's some seasonal component of depression that they have to kind of learn to manage. But overall, they're in like a much healthier spot.

And so I think, you know, like you're saying, the goal is to be healthier, more whole, more functional, not to be like living in this, like we said, utopia where nothing can go wrong. And, you know, our life is so comfortable that There's no pain. It's like that. That's a joke. Like we can't have that exactly.

And one book that I haven't read yet, maybe you have, and I've heard a lot of people rave about is the whole comfort crisis book. So comfort crisis, just talking about how, yeah, it's apparently it's a great book. Just saying how, you know, our, the comforts in our lives have honestly ruined us as a culture in many ways.

Like we don't know how to do hard things anymore. And, uh, we really need to get away from that. And so there's, yeah, a lot going on there. Um, definitely a lot to dissect and I'm sure, um, we could have, man, a whole another conversation about a lot of this. I want to give you a chance to respond, but I do also want to hear about your therapy, about, um, QNRT and how that's helped people.

Yeah. Where do, where do I even start? So yeah, quantum neurological reset therapy was an answer to prayer for me. Uh, as I briefly mentioned before, I had people more than. More than a few people coming to me for, I have had this trauma and it's having this effect on me and could you help? Uh, and I started getting more that I said, God, if you want me to work with these people, um, I believe there's more that I could possibly do for them.

And if that's the case, could you help me learn it or help show me where I can learn this? So I was at a seminar, uh, and I heard QNRT as an acronym, and he only mentioned it briefly, and when the lecturer mentioned it, I felt like a lightning bolt hit me, and I was like, oh, that's what I'm studying next!

And I had no idea what it was. So I wrote it down in my notebook and I was like, That's what I'm studying next. My wife loves to tell people that. Yeah, he called me at lunch and was like, Hey honey! She's like, how's your seminar? I was like, it's great. I was like, yeah, but I know what I'm studying next. I'm so excited.

She goes, uh, that's awesome. How's the course? And I was, it's great. But this anyway, she's like, what is it? And I said, it's Q and R T. She goes, what's that? I was like, I don't know. What's it stand for? I don't know, but I know it's going to be great. She said, you're crazy. Anyway, I went home and we looked it up together.

I didn't look it up until I got home. Uh, and it was an answer to prayer because it addresses adverse Events that we go through and how it impacts our nervous system directly and how those experiences what we go through sometimes get trapped in our nervous system and create patterns of response and those responses can create imbalances in our nervous system.

It takes foundationally, it takes, you know, quick question for you, joy, you know, what is it? And don't overthink it. That coordinates every cell in your entire body. I guess it would be, yeah, your nervous system, your brain. Exactly. Your nervous system and your brain. They coordinate 30 trillion cells. And do you know how your body's digesting your food right now?

Do you know where it's sending the proteins? Where it's sending all the carbohydrates and how it's doing all that? No. Thank God. Thank God, no. It happens out of habit. So millions of things are happening every minute in our body. In our nervous system that communicates trillions of cells together and tons of messages are being sent at lightning speeds through our body to keep us alive and to allow us to function.

And that amazing nervous system that coordinates all these things. It can't differentiate between a physical stress. stress, an emotional stress, or a chemical stress, because the process in which they communicate are the same neurotransmitters, the same chemicals in our body, the same hormones, all those things are the same, they just communicated as stress.

So because of that, QNRT takes an evaluation of the brain and nervous system, and you can, see patterns of where different stresses, Affect our nervous system and, you know, you can even dial down as to timeframe period. Um, you know, when was this an issue in your nervous system? Okay. It was also related to a viral reaction in your body.

Oh yeah, I had Lyme's really bad when I was five. Okay, yeah, it was linked to that Lyme's. And, oh yeah, that was the same time frame that I experienced this other thing. Um, and it, so it helps us to tie together the nervous system and how different things have affected it. Um, and then finally, it responds to, as I mentioned, the lie detection test.

It responds to lies or truth. And So if we want to let go of something, but our nervous system is like, no, not ready to let go. And you said, no, I'd like to let go of that. We say, all right, let's go. So your brainstem, let's say, right? So we live so much of our life in the limbic system. Limbic system is our reactionary survival mechanism.

Right? And fight or flight, right? Everybody knows sympathetic response, fight or flight. So much of us are in a sympathetic overload in today's society, more than ever, I think, for many more reasons than one. But sympathetic overload, if we're meant to function, let's just pick a random number at 10, a level of 10 stress, okay, is right here.

And we're functioning here, we're doing okay, right? As soon as something blows us over our threshold. Our body can't regulate back down and that inability to regulate back down is trauma to the body. That trauma can get lodged into our nervous system. And if you live up here for too long, you get totally wiped out.

You get drained and you start failing in many more ways than one. And that nervous system just can't take it anymore. And you're more reactive, uh, you, you can't focus, you know, different, there are different ways of different ways of reacting. Some of it is sleeplessness. It all depends on exactly where in your system it has affected you and it would tells you then how it affects us.

And it's because there are patterns in the nervous system. You know, when you hear a sudden sound, that's triggered through a particular part of the brain. Um, when you smell something, that's triggered through a different part of the brain. And all of those are normal neurological pathways that our brain functions, our body functions.

So we take all those things for granted, but when you start realizing that, when you smell something, you're like, Oh, that instantaneously brings me back to my grandmother's room when I was a kid. That, that was, that must have been, I don't know. Uh, a perfume that she used or something in, in her room that, that, that makes me think of my grandma.

You know, we've all had instances like that where you smell bacon cookies and you're like, Oh, those were the cookies that, uh, that grandpa always made for Christmas after, you know, Christmas dinner or dessert. And you know, all of these things, we have things that can trigger us back or the other way around.

You know, people smell something and they're like, Oh. My ex husband used to wear that, I hate that smell, or something like that. You know, people say these things all the time, but we don't realize that, well that's partially because it's triggering that part of the brain, and that part of the brain is still holding on to that hurt.

If you can clear that trigger out, which is how we use cranial nerves, which are the closest thing to the brain. Um, and we use the, the eyes, which are so powerful for our, for our nervous system. The first thing to, to grow from the brain in utero. And we use all these things to activate. And reprogram, that's what we end up doing, is reprogramming your response, as you just mentioned a moment ago, your response to certain triggers.

So let's say, no, it's not all things that are in the past. Let's say somebody's going through something right now in their life. They're going through something right now and they can't escape that relationship. They're a child who lives in the family's house and there's actually no place for them to go right now.

Okay, so that's not something that we're dealing with in the past. All these things are not just past. It can be very much present. So no, we're not going to change, you can't change that relationship. You can't change that situation that you're stuck in. So sometimes the issues at home, they have symptoms when they're at home.

They're really anxious at home. They can't sleep at home or something like that. And then all of a sudden they go maybe someone else's house and all of a sudden they get a great night's sleep and the kids like. Well, that was weird. Well, all of a sudden, every time they go to school, their headache kind of gets a little bit better.

Or vice versa. Sometimes the stress is at school. They're being bullied at school. They're not telling anybody or something. Or you have a teacher who's really mean to you, a different kind of bullying, something like that. And they're not telling anybody. But every time they go to school, they get a headache.

They end up calling the nurse every week, pretty much, and they get taken home. And then you find out later, okay, they're dealing with bullying. So there are certain situations that we can't necessarily avoid currently, but what we can do, and that's what that's what Q and R T has been able to do is change the nervous system's response to it.

And that's powerful. So no, the bullying may not stop or the situation between your parents at home and the moment might not stop or, uh, any number of situations you can actually change. Maybe you. In your time right now, but what you can do is say I'm accepting of this right now, and I'm not allowing it to Not allow me to move forward Or I'm I'm no longer holding on to that and keeping it from allowing me to do XYZ So so your response and And the fun thing is too, sometimes the spouses of people come in and they're like, What do you do to my wife?

Like, she's totally different. Or, man, my husband, he hasn't done that in years. Or like, he's just happy. Oh, one other instance. So I had this, had this kid and Apparently he screamed bloody murder every time they gave him a bath. He was like two years old or something, a year and a half or two years old. I mean, his whole life, gave him a bath, screamed bloody murder.

I didn't know this. I was treating him for something totally different. And I was like, Hey, he needs to take a bath in some essential oils. I love essential oils also. And, uh, and the parents like, Hmm, yeah, he screams bloody murder. I was like, okay, let's see if we can do something that might help this out or whatever.

So we did some treatment and, uh, And then the next day she sends me a picture of him playing as happy as can be in the bathtub the next day. And she was like, this is a miracle. And I was, you know, it's another experience of the situation didn't change. He's still taking a bath. Nothing else changed in that situation.

That's a simple benign situation of a bath, right? Uh, but even benign things can trigger us somehow that trigger was linked to something else that was more. hurtful than just the bath. And that trigger was what his body was going into fight or flight. It was going into, ah, I don't know. I got to survive.

I'm freaking out. And the child's response is to scream. Sometimes. Adult responses to screen too. And, you know, sometimes we're in total protective freak out mode. We all know our nervous system's response to stress, right? If we're about to give a talk or, you know, public speaking, and we get a little nervous in our stomach or, you know, we get a little raised heartbeat or we start sweating a little bit more.

You know, all these things are normal responses we experience every day, right? But sometimes we don't realize that triggers that shouldn't. Make that happen are making us happen. And that's what anxiety and anticipatory anxiety, all those things are is that, well, the situation right now is actually okay, but you're interpreting it as not.

Okay, you're interpreting it as I'm going to die and I need to do something about this. And so you're freaking out and that's where you're just changing our response to the same exact situation that that yellow car just drove up the driveway and. It's okay. It's, you know, it's not a taxi cab who's delivering the guy who came in and raped you.

You're, you are now okay with the fact that a yellow car can drive up the driveway and you don't have to respond with a pattern of, oh, that means bad stuff's going to happen. Not every yellow car driving up means that. And so that's where you're actually changing your response to the same exact trigger.

Um, and allowing your body to let go of those patterns. Because, uh, we're trained. Nervous system learns our name. It learns many more things than we even give it credit for. It learns to react in certain ways. Like, for instance, we know, you know, when we're walking down the street. And we get a little kind of creepy feeling.

And you don't quite realize why maybe yet, but then you kind of see somebody in the corner of your eye, you're like, it's a little off putting. I'm not sure what's going on there, but I'm not going to stay to find out what's going on. I'm just going to kind of go this way. Yeah. Um, you don't know why, you don't need to know why, but for whatever reason, your system was aware of something not so good going on down there.

Um. And, you know, those are things that our nervous system knows and it tells us by activating our sympathetic nervous system. But when that gets awry, normal things activate our survival mechanism that you might not want to happen because that can really debilitate our life. Um, and we want to actually accept what's happened in the past or in the present and You know, no longer react in the same way, but change our reactions and heal from them.

So I don't really know where that just went, but no, it's super helpful. No, in those false alarms that sometimes, you know, set us off, you know, being able to disarm them and move through them. That makes so much sense. So wow. You truly, Dr. Gunn, you have a PhD in this stuff. You truly do, um, on many levels and, uh, well, thank you for explaining it and going through it.

I'm sure we could talk so much more about all of this, but I want to make sure if someone's interested in working with you, uh, what do you offer and how do they get that? My PhD is an in person. Only, um, technique, uh, and so I offer that I'm in New York, in Pauling, New York, and I have a practice right out of my house, and, uh, I'm here full time now, and I do offer some virtual treatments generally, not for QNRT, but other work.

Um, another book, um, which is The Emotion Code. Second to, and that's also a great book. Um, Dr. Nelson wrote that book and it goes into some treatment of, uh, how the emotions affect the body and that type of work I do virtually. I do mostly in person just because it's a real connection and a real, uh, a different level of treatment because we can do, because I'm a physical therapist.

So there's a lot of hands on, a lot of cranial. A lot of, a lot of implementation of hands on work with the, uh, with the emotional work. Because again, the body doesn't differentiate the two. So they kind of go hand in hand. And, uh, 98 percent of my clientele I do QNRT with now as, as part of the treatment and then help facilitate healing through other avenues that I've been gifted to learn to.

So those are really in person. And then I do, uh, Um, the virtual work that I do, I keep minimal for the most part, uh, but there can be hugely helpful things. Um, and there, there are examples of how that works as well, but, um, I don't, I don't really have much of a presence on social media or anything like that.

My website is pretty minimal, uh, but the best way to probably contact me is, is by email. Uh, chris at be not afraid pt. com, which I'm sure you'll also put in the link and all that. And, and also my, my business number, um, I'm reasonably good at getting voicemails back or, uh, I don't answer generally, but I'll return voicemails.

And uh, so, uh, calling the business number there is another great way to get in touch with me if there are any questions or curiosities on, on treatment, anything like that. Love it. No, so good. Thanks for mentioning all that. And we'll definitely link to be not afraid pt. com. Is that right? And then, uh, we'll yeah, put all the, the number in the show notes and everything like that.

So thank you so much Dr. Gannon. One thing I wanted to mention to people, if you're intrigued by this, you know, setting up a call, you know, doing some sort of a consult, I know you offer that too. Could be a good next step. Um, I know people will travel. To, you know, different therapists or physical therapists in order to get the benefits that they offer because there's not many people doing this stuff.

And so that is certainly a possibility, especially if you're, you know, in that area of the country or you can, you know, get there, um, to do some sort of treatment. So I know there's a lot of possibilities there. So I just encourage people like think outside the box if it's something where you're thinking like, wow, I could really benefit from this.

But oh, it's. far away, or, you know, maybe I couldn't afford it right now. I would just challenge you to think creatively and figure out a way that maybe you could, um, potentially work with Dr. again in the future, they end up just, there's nowhere else to turn for them. And they've, they've tried many things.

Yeah. And, and so I have many clients that travel many, several hours, uh, to come in and I'm. In the near future, we'll be setting up a better situation where I can, uh, to accommodate more people, um, so that we can have longer periods of time. So Dr. Turner, who was the founder of QNRT, he has a place down in Roswell, Georgia.

And he is, um, he is set up so that he can have people stay in a hotel nearby and do intensives. So he does three, four, five day intensives where you get a lot of work done in a short, you know, in a several days back to back. And that's something that I'm, I'm working towards as well. Um, but yes, traveling sometimes, you know, I only need several sessions sometimes to make huge progress.

Love that. No, I, yeah. And if it works, man, it works. And it's better than spending years in an office with, you know, someone who may have good intentions, but they're just the, that method of therapy, that method of trying to help them. It just isn't one tidbit for people to, if you don't see some improvement with what you're doing with somebody, um, you know, we can be generous and say three, two, three months.

If you're not seeing any change, maybe. Explore other options. There you go. Second opinion about, at the very least, schedule, consult, phone call, something. Same thing for years. If it's just not making much of a change, there's, there's better things out. Yeah. It's waste of time, waste of money. Individually.

There is healing, there is growth. And don't allow that to say, well, I've already tried. There's more. Never. Stop seeking for, for healing. Never Stop seeking love and truth. Hmm. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much again for your time and your expertise. You're really beautiful and, um, and we all need healing in our lives.

Uh, so Of course, couldn't agree more. I want to give you the last word. What final advice or encouragement would you give to everyone listening, especially people who feel just stuck in life? They're going through pain, especially because of maybe dysfunction at home, or their parents getting divorced.

What final advice or encouragement would you give to them? You know, it would be hard for me to say anything other than the words of a dying man, a client, who said to his family, uh, embrace the cross. Embrace your suffering and when you are not feeling loved and you don't believe you're loved by anyone, know that you are loved and that you are cherished.

Can't get better than that. So, uh, never stop seeking it. For love you will find if you seek.

Again, if you're interested in learning more about how Dr. Gen can help you, I just encourage you to schedule a consult with him, send him an email, give him a call, whatever it takes to just learn more about how he can help you. Now, if you're not ready for that, I wanted to let you know that we have a free video course on trauma that you can go through right now if you wanted to.

It's called Broken to Whole, Tactics to Heal from Your Parents Divorce or Broken Marriage. In just two hours, you're going to learn from a trauma therapist who has over 17 years of experience. experience treating trauma. You're going to learn things like why the trauma of your parents divorce or family dysfunction is so damaging.

Uh, you're going to be able to identify the root of your struggles, which is often trauma as you'll learn in the course, you're going to feel validated and less alone in your struggles. You'll understand and better be able to navigate your emotions. You're also going to build healthier relationships and a better life.

And perhaps most of all, you're going to avoid passing your brokenness onto the people that you love the most. And so if you want to get, Access to that free course. Again, it's free. Just go to restored ministry.com/broken to whole. Again, restored ministry.com/broken to whole, or just click on the link in the show notes.

You can sign up for free on that page, and then just start watching the videos again, restored ministry.com/broken to whole, or just click on the link in the show. That wraps up this show. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken family, share this podcast with them.

Seriously, if you want to, take like 30 seconds right now to just shoot them a text message with this episode or another. And you can just say something like, hey, I listened to this podcast. Made me think of you and everything you have been through with your family. Just wanted to share. No pressure to, you know, actually listen.

Um, but just wanted to send it your way. Something like that will go a long way. And I promise you, they will be grateful even if they don't say much. right now. It is going to help them. I wish someone would have done that with me years ago. In closing, always remember, you're not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And always remember the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#112: The Best of 2023: Restored Podcast Highlights

In this episode, you'll hear highlight clips from the podcast in 2023. This episode, and the entire podcast, will help you heal from the trauma of your parents’ divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can break the cycle. 

If you’re new to the podcast, this is the perfect way to sample our content and learn how it will help you. If you’re a longtime listener, this is the perfect episode to share with someone you know who needs to hear it.

Restored’s Website

Featured Episodes

#102: Healing Sexual Brokenness: Your Sexual Brokenness Isn’t Random | Jay Stringer

#101: Healing Sexual Brokenness: Freedom from Porn | Matt Fradd & Jason Evert

#092: Is Divorce Good or Bad for Children? | Katy Faust

#104: Healing Sexual Brokenness: Why is Our Culture So Sexually Broken? | Christopher West

#105: Healing Sexual Brokenness: A Resource for Women Struggling | Rachael Killackey

#087: A Special Operations Tactic to Stay Calm and Function under Stress | Tyler Morris

#099: Healing Sexual Brokenness: The Cure to Unwanted Sexual Behavior | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD

#089: How to Become Fit and Healthy | Dakota Lane

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

 Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm Joey Panarelli, I'm your host, and this is episode 112. To close out the year, my team and I wanted to share clips from The Restored Podcast this year.

Yeah. And so you're about to hear short clips with highlights from our podcasts. And if you're a new listener, welcome are so glad that you're here. This is the perfect way to sample our content. If you're a long time listener, we're so honored to serve you. This is the perfect episode to share with someone, you know, who can really benefit from this content.

By the way, if after hearing a clip you want to listen to that episode in its entirety, we're going to tell you the podcast episode, and we'll even link to it in the show notes. And so I'll mention it at the end of each clip, and then you can go to restoredministry. com slash 112 if you want to check those out.

And we'll also include those links in the show notes so you can listen to the whole podcast episode if one really resonated with you based on the clip. A little bit of a trigger warning because we did this whole series this year on healing sexual brokenness. I recommend just listening with earphones in if there's children around and I'll explain that a little bit further.

But first up, we have episode 102 with Jay Stringer. If you haven't heard of Jay Stringer, he's an amazing man. therapist who helps people heal and break free from sexual compulsions or addictions. He wrote a great book called unwanted on the topic. And in this episode, and even this clip, we dive into that content.

I'm fascinated, especially given that we're serving, you know, teenagers and young adults who come from what we call broken families where there's divorce, separation, or just a lot of dysfunction. Yeah. We're fascinated by this idea of repetition compulsion. We don't talk about that a lot in the show, but this idea of how you might repeat.

Behavior that you even despise, that's my understanding of it, at least. And so an example that I often give is like a girl who maybe grew up with an abusive father who ends up marrying an abusive husband, even though she swore she would never do that. And so more particularly for my audience, so many of us come from families where mom or dad cheated on the other, and now they're terrified of repeating that in their own relationship.

Yeah. So two questions on this. Why does that happen? Like, why do we repeat these behaviors, especially in this sexual context? And perhaps more importantly, how do we avoid that? Let me address, like, how do we avoid it first and then let's go back. So there's this great quote from a guy named Richard Rohr who says, the pain that we do not transform, we transmit.

Always someone else has to suffer because I don't know how to. So, uh, that's what's happening intergenerationally is that we have all this pain, uh, that a lot of us have not always been able to transform. And if we don't transform that pain, we are going to transmit it onto the next generation. And so how do we transform pain?

I would say it's a matter of finding grief and finding anger. So grief is that sense of. When you're staring down the brokenness of many generations, like, you know, the story that I shared about my grandmother, when I'm dealing with my own compulsion for secrecy and shame, you know, I can either choose to try and hide that, or I can try and will my way through it, or I can begin to allow tears to fall with regard to this has been a deeply broken sexual story in my family for generations.

Right? And so the only I think real appropriate response to that is a level of grief, but also the other side to that is a level of anger of I don't want trauma to win in my life or my kid's life. And so if we can kind of hold that razor's edge of sometimes we need grief for some of the tragedies and heartaches that we have known, but also we need a level of anger and defiance to say like.

No more. This is not going to continue in my family. So any of my clients that I see that are able to hold that paradox of grief and anger end up transforming their lives. So that's how we get out of it. Why does that happen? We are learning more and more and more. Every day about why this happens. So one of the fascinating studies that's been not just studies, but field of studies would be epigenetics.

And that's the study of gene expression. And so they have done studies with something like water fleas. So water fleas that are exposed to a predator, they will give birth to other water fleas that are born with a helmeted or horned head. And that will remain. on the water fleas for subsequent generations until the threat is removed from the water.

So that's just microscopic water fleas, right? Wow. Born with helmeted heads because of the trauma in the water. So if that's happening with water fleas, how much more is that happening with family systems? How much more is that happening with your sexual story? So epigenetics, I think, begins to answer some of that.

Some of the other things that we know, uh, and this would just be an adage in psychology would be, uh, we go to people that are familiar to us because they are familial. And so that sense of if you are used to a particular man or woman or archetype in your family that might be compulsive or, uh, Using substances or having a secretive life that gets coded in your neuro system, neurobiology is like, this is just a normal person to be around.

And so the people that you feel comfortable with later on in life will probably end up resembling. What your body has known. And so just that sense of that's part of the repetition. But the other thing I would say, and then I'll pause to see if there's any clarification would be, you know, all of us that are growing up in these types of home have endured some level of trauma and trauma, according to people like.

Gabor Mate and Peter Levine would say that trauma is not just something that happens to us. Trauma is also what happens inside of us in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so just that sense of when the divorce occurred, when the alcoholism occurred, when there was some level of brokenness, it wasn't just that that event occurred.

The bigger question is, who held your tears, who held your rage, uh, who held your face in the midst of a family system breaking down? And if you didn't have someone that offered a face that was able to bear witness to what you went through, you have unaddressed trauma in your life. And what's the impact of unaddressed trauma?

Uh, three things. We have fragmentation. Number one, number two would be a sense of the need to numb. And then the third would be isolation. So fragmentation numbing and isolation. So fragmentation is just that sense of, uh, when the story is broken, when the family is broken, there's not solid ground to stand on.

There is difficulty, we don't know where to go, we don't know what tomorrow looks like, we don't know what five years looks like. And so there's just a sense of how is a nine year old girl supposed to hold the reality of a family imploding or blowing up due to some particular issue? Well, you can't. So you go from this sense of profound fragmentation of life into the need to numb.

And why do we numb? Well, because the pain of what we are experiencing is far too much. And so that could be finding porn is a great numbing agent. Promiscuity, uh, hooking up with people could be a great numbing agent. Uh, alcoholism, just a lot of substances or screen time can all help us numb and dissociate.

From the pain that we're experiencing, but then after fragmentation, after you've found kind of the go to numbing device, uh, you will inevitably end up in some level of isolation from what you're experiencing. So the shame of what numbing you chose. Or just the reality that you don't have a lot of people in your life that are able to bear witness to what you went through, you end up highly isolated in life.

And that's the story that gets repeated over and over again, is that we feel fragmented in our adult life. It's too painful to deal with our own family or our own career. So then we find things to numb out with, and then we eventually feel isolated. And then we're like, dang it. Uh, I'm right back to where my family was.

Why am I so screwed up? What's wrong with me? My whole family is messed up. I'm messed up. And then that's really where that sense of shame solidifies in our life. Wow. I know that's a lot. No, it's amazing generational trauma, but that's, that's how we heal, but also that's why it keeps happening.

I've personally listened to that clip and that episode like numerous times. I've just found it so helpful So value packed and feel free to if you want to rewind and listen to it again because there's so much in there or just go Ahead and listen to the whole episode which again is episode 102 In episode 101, I was joined by Matt Fradd and Jason Everett, who are both authors and speakers and awesome men, to talk about how to break free from pornography.

By the way, if you're asking like, what in the world are you talking so much about lust and pornography and all that stuff, the reason is very simple. Dr. Patrick Carnes, a leading expert on sexual addiction, found that 87 percent of people with a sexual addiction come from a broken family. You heard that right.

Almost 90 percent of people with a sexual addiction come from a broken family. And as a podcast and a nonprofit that's serving young people who come from broken or divorced families, we knew we had to tackle this topic. And so we did this whole podcast series this year on this topic of healing sexual brokenness.

And so in this episode where we're sharing clips, you're going to hear a lot of those clips from that series. And so if you want to find out more about that series or even listen to those episodes, we'll link to the link and. the show notes and that's, uh, restored ministry. com slash sexual brokenness, restored ministry.

com slash sexual brokenness, or just click on the link in the show notes. And so the episode you're about to hear, uh, tackles that topic by focusing a little bit more on pornography in particular. And so there's two parts of this interview with Matt and Jason one. really answered the question, uh, is pornography wrong and harmful?

Because there's some people who don't know the answer to that question, is it wrong and harmful, and it really deserves to be discussed and to be answered. And then the second part is, okay, let's assume you believe it's wrong and harmful. But you're stuck on it. How do you break free and that's what we dive into again those two parts in this episode But here's a little clip from that show.

Yeah. No People say well porn doesn't really hurt anybody. I don't know that you could get a statement more factually untrue than that one I mean the user his capacity to love as As you said is diminished the person behind the camera the person filming at the person in the scene I just think that porn only exists because it shows So little of the person, because if it actually showed the full woman or the full porn star what's actually going on in her life, how she was sexually abused when she was eight years old by her uncle, that she was raped on a date when she was 18.

Uh, then when she was 21, she entered into this. I remember one woman who had, had, she decided to quit after being in the porn industry after her fourth abortion, she said, I just couldn't take it anymore. But could you imagine? If you saw this full picture, uh, like I had known of one woman, she said that after the, the filming of the scene, it only took three minutes for the whole finished thing to be done, but the filming of it took hours and hours and hours, and she was just brutalized during it.

And she said it was so bad that when it was done, I had to go to the hospital. Uh, and, but the, the porn producer was such a jerk. He didn't even drive her there. He called an Uber to take her to the ER after the filming. But imagine if the viewer, you saw this, okay, this scene that I'm seeing right here, uh, a child that is conceived during this scene is going to be aborted six weeks later, and this woman had to go to the ER afterwards, and this and that, like, how could you possibly get gratification out of staring at something like that?

If you saw the full picture, you saw the full woman, porn would go out of business overnight. That's why it has to reduce the woman only to her sexual value. And show nothing else. And so, yeah, the viewer's capacity to love is harmed. Kids are harmed. The porn, I mean, everybody's harmed. And so we got to ditch that, you know, objection right away.

Just such good content from such excellent men, excellent authors and speakers. And that again is in episode 100. One next step. We have Katie Faust joined us in episode 92. Katie is, is amazing. She runs the organization them before us where she's advocating for children's rights. What does that mean?

Basically so often in these discussions that we have about families, about marriage, about every, all the hot topics in our culture today, we forget about. Uh, a very important group of people and then as the children, like what's best for the children and all these debates often they're just forgotten.

And so as a child of divorce herself, Katie really understands these problems, including the topic of divorce very well. And she's become this really fearless spokeswoman for children's rights. Listen here.

Saw that as a kid, I see it now in the lives of. Kids around me who are in a situation of divorce and it is an absolute cruelty It's such a cruelty and the fact that we have allowed this to go on Virtually unchallenged and unchecked for decades that we have wrecked A generation of kids over this and we never talk about it.

It just, I'm, I'm generally a very nice person, but you talk about these kinds of things and it enrages me because the harm to children is so strong and so long lasting.

As you can tell, Kitty does not mince words at all, but if you want to hear more of the context and the full interview, just go listen to episode 92. Episode 104 is next. Christopher West, who's a very popular speaker and author, joined us in that episode to really answer the question, How did our culture become so sexually broken?

It doesn't take much to look around and see how much of a problem we have with pornography, with sexual addictions, compulsions, with infidelity. Like, the list goes on and on. But how did we get here? And so that's the question that he answers in this episode.

God himself is not sexual, but God himself is an eternal exchange of life giving love. Right? A communion of three persons, and in the normal course of events, the union of the two, man and woman, leads to a third. And so we have, we have an image here, a bodily re presentation, or representation, of the life giving exchange of beauty itself, of the divine.

And that's why the enemy hates this painting. And his goal from the beginning was this. And this is exactly what has happened to this mystery of human sexuality in a fallen world, it gets all twisted up. And, and this is what, this is the classic mistake of spiritual people. And, and all of this is an answer to your question, Joey.

But all of this has to be laid out to understand how we got in this mess. Yeah. Right? The typical response of spiritual people, and I put that in quotes because This is false spirituality. A false spirituality thinks you have to live a spiritual life ruptured from the body. And this is not authentic spirituality.

It is certainly not Christian spirituality. But falsely spiritual people look at this crumpled up painting And what does it appear to be? It looks like trash, right? So spiritual people will say, that's bad, throw it away. And this is what you would call a puritanical approach to human sexuality. Spirit good, body bad.

Well, I find this fascinating. In, in 1953, Hugh Hefner starts Playboy magazine, and this is what he said in 1953. He said, I started Playboy magazine as my personal response to the hurt and hypocrisy of Puritanism in my strict Christian upbringing. Wow. Yeah. So Hugh Hefner in 1953 pulls this crumpled painting out of the trash.

And says to the modern world, Hey, people, you shouldn't throw this away. And guess what? Hugh Hefner was right on this point. He was right that we shouldn't throw this away. But where did he get it wrong? And wrong with horrific consequences, all of which you named and we're living through, and we still are reaping the horrors.

of Hugh Hefner's mistake. Now, we can't pin it all on Hugh Hefner, but I turned to him as kind of one of the main architects of the, of the sexual revolution. And, and more aptly, it's a pornographic revolution, right? I don't want to surrender the word, surrender the word sexual to the enemy. Sexual, sexuality is a good word.

Remember, the enemy doesn't have his own clay. God created sexuality. He created us male and female, and he called the two to be fruitful and multiply. Sexuality is a holy, sacred reality. It's gotten all twisted up. Hugh Hefner's mistake was that he left the paper, the painting, in its crumpled up form. And he started reveling in the crumpled up version of the story.

And he started saying to the modern world, Don't you want to look at this? Don't you want some of this? And because most of the culture was puritanical in its approach to sexuality, when Hugh Hefner started saying, Hey, you can have this, We jumped in. We, we dove head first into this crumpled up version of the story.

Totally mind blowing about what Hugh Hefner, the founder of Playboy, had to say about like why he did what he did. And one of the things I learned from Christopher is that sexuality is meant to be so much better, so much more beautiful than what we've degraded it to become as a culture today. And so if you want to hear more about that, listen to episode 104.

Before we get to the next clip, I just wanted to say, if you're new to this podcast, if you're new to restored the nonprofit behind the podcast, I just want to take the chance to introduce ourselves. We are again, a nonprofit who helps teenagers and young adults from divorced or broken families to heal and build virtue so they could break that cycle.

In their own lives. And we do that primarily by producing content and resources that make healing simple, such as this podcast, we have a book and we're producing future books. Uh, we also do speaking engagements. We have free video courses and so many more resources. And our vision is not only to break.

The cycle of dysfunction and divorce, but truly to reverse it. Cause we believe if you're someone who's been through the trauma of your family falling apart, uh, it's likely that you have these like really bad habits in your life, these vices that are holding you back and you're going to go on typically and build these unhealthy relationships, weak marriages and really broken families.

And I think that's why we're in the mess we are in our culture, because that's happened on such a large scale, but on the flip side, if we can help. People who've been through their parents for us, who come from a broken family to heal from that trauma and to build virtue, those good habits in their lives, then they're going to be able to go on and build healthy relationships, strong marriages, and just thriving families.

And that I'm convinced is going to transform our culture more than anything else. Now, in addition to serving young people who come from broken families, we also serve anyone who loves or leads them. Maybe you're a parent, a relative, a significant other. Um, maybe you're a leader, like a pastor, a youth minister, a coach, a teacher, anyone who has people in their life who come from broken families.

Maybe you don't know exactly how to help them. We want to help you to help them. And so we're building resources for you guys as well. And so definitely podcast, join our email list as well at restored ministry. com to hear more. So we're going to talk a little bit about the resources that we have for you.

Again, we want to help you to help them. Again, all of that can be found at our website at restoredministry. com. You can view all of our resources on there and reach out to us if you have any questions. Next up is episode 105. In that episode, we talk about the fact that so often sexual problems, like problems with lust or pornography, are often talked about as if they were only a guy problem, a male problem.

But the truth is, they're not just a guy problem. They're a human problem. It's a women's struggle. too. And so in this episode, we talk about, um, that whole struggle, the female side of this struggle with sexual compulsion and addiction with my awesome guests, Rachel Kalacki. She's doing great work with her ministry called Magdala Ministries, but take a listen here.

Absolutely. Cause I think a lot of the narratives that I heard. Whether from like secular or even church spaces, it's just, uh, there's just a lot of influence of purity culture. It seems like we almost would prefer that women were asexual and we spend a lot of time, uh, talking to men about their sexuality, talking, there, there's permission for men to struggle, but there was never like, never once did I hear this addressed towards women from either a secular or a church standpoint.

A lot of our, you know, any talk I heard or any sort of, like, youth event, it addressed, like, emotions. It was all about emotions. It was all about modesty, like, kind of just the hallmark topics for women, which aren't bad topics, but statistically, uh, you know, when. We hear that one in at least one in three porn addicts are women.

Like it, you know, that kind of begs the question, why are we not addressing this early on? So, and I think there's another study that I saw that said it's like 60 percent of girls in high school are watching porn regularly. So clearly it's a, it's a demographic that's in a lot of And a lot of need and I was a part of that demographic, but yeah, there just wasn't, there was not any acknowledgement.

And so you do kind of start to have this identity crisis of, I love that you said like you're, you're fully woman. It's like, yeah, but when you're in the midst of it, you're questioning, like I'm struggling with a quote unquote male struggle. So what does that say about my femininity? And that's a whole nother level of the healing.

It's just kind of reintegrating your femininity, re kind of reestablishing it. Owning it and being confident in it takes a lot of work.

Rachel and Magdala Ministries are doing incredible work. Make sure to check them out. And if you want to listen to the whole episode, that's episode 105, where Rachel just shares very vulnerably about what she's been through and then the resources they've built for women in these particular struggles.

And so feel free to reach out to Magdala as well if you want to join one of their support groups. Again, that's episode 105. Next up is episode 87. So when you face a stressful situation, uh, people like firefighters, paramedics, Navy SEALs, and professional athletes have learned that breathing techniques can actually help you to stay calm, to stay focused and to operate smoothly.

even under a lot of stress and pressure. And so in this episode, we talk about that with a firefighter and paramedic, who is a friend of mine. He shares some tactics that they use in the field to help themselves again, stay calm and operate under pressure. Okay.

So there's a bunch of different ways that I've seen it used and used it myself. Uh, as a, as a paramedic, I think my first experience with it was actually, uh, very simple use. There was, um, a patient we had who is having problems with anxiety. I think we were in the middle of a pretty crowded triage room in a hospital ER and this patient started to have another anxiety attack right in the middle of the triage room.

We hadn't been able to. get a nurse yet. We didn't have, um, so we were still in charge of this patient basically. Um, and this paramedic that I was with essentially started coaching this patient through box breathing, which I'll get into right now. You take a deep breath in for four seconds. You count in your head one, two, three, four, then you hold it for four seconds.

Then you let it go for four seconds. And then at the bottom, you hold for four seconds, then you inhale for four seconds. So it's a four second box, basically, is why it's called box breathing, or some people call it, I think, square breathing or something like that. But it's a conscious way to slow yourself down.

And that's maybe the most common version. Inhaling four seconds, holding four seconds, exhaling four seconds. Holding for seconds anyway, as soon as he started coaching this patient through this, the anxiety attack kind of subsided because the focus was on the breathing, the nervous system shifted and. The Anxiety Attack past that was the first useful experience that I had seen with it.

There's other things like Grounding which I think Julia has probably talked about before we use the five senses. It's a very similar approach But even free to go into that if you want to I mean not everyone probably has heard those episodes So yeah, and that one Basically, and I don't remember the order, but you, you pick like five different things you can see, four different things you can hear, three different things, you know, it's like using all five senses, you go to five, four, three, two, one, and then you, you know, maybe you have ice cream at the end.

It's one thing you can taste. It's a way to kind of keep you in the moment, in the situation where you are, and it takes you away from that, like whatever you're, focused on, um, and kind of obsessed over it, that, that, that you're struggling with. It helps you get out of your head. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It keeps you grounded is essentially what you're calling it.

And it's using the senses to do that. And I've used that on calls. Um, I've used that like when my wife was in childbirth, for example, um, it worked, uh, but she was, you know, it's, it's just a distraction kind of, um, but it's effective. A good distraction. Yeah, exactly. The person might not know why it's working, or they might not even know why they're doing it.

They might even be frustrated that they're doing it. But Almost every time it works, but even I think like in myself, um, you, everyone has this fight or flight response. So the anxiety or the, um, like feeling of being amped up can be combated by using this, these different techniques.

Honestly, those Breathing techniques seem too simple to be effective. I admit that, but once you use them, you learn like, holy cow, these can be really, really helpful again to keep you calm and give you the ability to operate even under a lot of pressure. And if you come from a broken family, chances are you're facing a lot of stress and pressure in your family.

And so these simple breathing techniques can be really, really helpful. And so if you want to learn how to do that properly, go to episode 87. Dr. Bob Schutz joined us in episode 99. He's an author, a speaker, a really popular guy at this point, and he's written books and given talks and workshops and retreats on healing, and specifically, in some cases, on healing from sexual brokenness.

Yeah, healing is often in stages, and so there can be freedom from a compulsion. For a period of time, I tell in my book, Be Healed, about the story of John, where he had gotten free for three years and then fallen back after I had been in contact with him. And where it led him was into a deeper healing of really deep wounds of abandonment and young childhood.

And so always, if there's another fall, there's, you know, There's always the reality of sin and the weakness to sin, but there's usually a deeper area of woundedness that the fall is exposing. And that was the case with this particular man and the wife, but it's almost always there that behind our sexual compulsions are psychosexual wounds, are wounds of a rejection or abandonment, and we're trying to medicate them, and we're trying to find fulfillment in a way that can never be fulfilled there.

And so, you know, one of the things that I often say when we teach courses is behind every disordered desire, which every sexual compulsion is a disordered desire. Is a holy desire. That is, what's really the longing in the heart of that person. It's for something good. And that's one of the ways through the shame.

What's the good that you're looking for there? Not that you whitewash the distortion, but you're, you're Identifying in your heart what you're really looking for, beyond every sort of desires. A holy desire, an unmet need, an unhealed wound, and a hidden pattern of sin. As underneath it. Wow. Yeah. And so, when we're doing this work, you just can't stop with changing the behavior.

That's why the healing is so important. The healing has to get down to those good desires. The unmet needs of those desires, the unhealed wounds that keep those desires from being met and the hidden pattern of sin. Things like unresolved anger, envy, resentment, bitterness, unforgiveness, those kinds of things.

At another point in that episode, Dr. Bob talked about how often at the root of sexual compulsion or addiction is a broken attachment, a broken relationship basically between you and your parents. And so if that's helpful for you, if that resonates with you, definitely listen to episode. Next up is episode 89, Dakota Lane is a fitness and health coach who's just achieved amazing results in his own life in terms of fitness as well as in the lives of his clients.

He's helped so many people and he actually comes from a broken family, divorced family himself. Self. And so he really understands this problem that those of us from broken families face. Um, but he's also been able to take a lot of the pain and the problems that he's faced in his life and redirect those into fitness.

And he's again, been able to do that instead of falling into a lot of the bad habits that so many of us often fall into. So, tick, listen to this clip.

And how about sleep? I didn't plan to really talk about this much, but I'm just curious if there's any quick tips there, like how much should you get and any best practices. Yeah, well, just to mention like everybody knows again, sleep is important and I can't stress enough like how important if you just like, look at some of the research people who get like five hours or less of sleep, like typical BMI for people's bodies can be way more dramatic as far as like the obese category than people who get 78 hours, the stress that it causes in your body and the way that it is.

Manipulates your hormones, particularly cortisol, almost make it impossible to lose weight. So you can have your nutrition, you can have your exercise, you can have everything like in check. If your sleep is out of whack, it can totally undermine everything that you're doing. So highly recommend prioritizing that.

Obviously nowadays, it's a pretty big topic with like blue light with people's phones, like trying to minimize the amount of blue light you're getting like an hour before bed. Um, it's going to really help your body to get into like deeper REM, um, cycles and deeper sleep. And then, yeah, just like trying to prioritize to make sure you're getting a solid amount, but yeah, super, super important sleep.

It's like the only time really that our body has to do so much of like the maintenance and healing. It just doesn't happen when we're awake. Like it's amazing, even like our brain, the way that our body Kind of like heals and just so it does maintenance on our brain like it's well And that's why if you're like lacking sleep Um, like in the seals when they have hell week and they don't sleep like you start hallucinating like you just will not work right No, it makes so much sense.

Is there a particular, like, hour count? Like, is six hours an hour? I mean, seven to eight is still going to be the typical recommended. You know, different people, it's going to work differently. Our bodies can, they can be trained differently. So you can kind of train your body to work off less. But yeah, I would say strive for at least seven.

Episode 89 is just full of really practical guidelines when it comes to health and fitness, such as how much water should you drink? How much sleep should you get? Like you just heard, uh, as well as is nutrition or exercise more important? So much more. So again, episode 89 has a lot of good content for you.

If you're interested in becoming healthier and more fit, that brings us to the end of this episode. Again, if you want to listen to any of those episodes in their entirety, just go to restored ministry. com slash one. So again, 112, uh, or just click on the link in the show notes to be able to access the full episodes that you heard in this episode.

If you found our content helpful, I want to invite you to do a few things, zero pressure to do these things, but I just want to extend the invitation. One is feel free to subscribe or follow on your podcast app so you can hear about when our new episodes go live. We can notify you immediately. Also just check out our resources on our website at restored ministry.

Again, restored ministry, ministry of singular dot com, or just click on the link in the show notes. And then finally, just wanted to say, especially if you've been listening to us for a while, you trust us, I would say, share this episode with someone in your life who you know comes from a broken family, divorced family who really needs to hear it.

Like I promise you, they're going to be really grateful and you could even text them now. You could even say, Hey, I was just listening to this podcast episode. I thought of you with everything that you've been through. I figured this might be helpful. No pressure. Just wanted to pass it along. Something like that can go really, really far because chances are they feel super alone and they haven't really gotten the help that they need.

And so you can be the person to change that for them. And I know going back in my life when my parents separated in divorce, it would have been really helpful if someone would have done that for me. And so be brave. Take a second to text them now. From our team here at Resort, I just want to say we're honored to serve you and we really just wish you the best in the new year.

And always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own lives. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are. And change the ending.

#111: The #1 Lie About How Divorce Affects the Children | Cody

There’s an extremely popular lie about how divorce affects the children. In this episode, we discuss that lie with my guest who is an only child from a divorced family, plus:

• The loneliness, addiction, and social problems that stemmed from his family’s breakdown

• The anger and even hatred he felt toward his parents and how he feels now

• A unique thing he and his wife did before they were married to strengthen their relationship

Get the Book or First Chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

Get the FREE Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• #012: Counseling: How It Works and Why It Helps | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

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Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

#110: 10 Ways to Make Therapy Fail or Succeed for You | Clare Eckard

If there were 10 things you can do to make therapy succeed (or fail), would you want to know them? I know I would. 

In this episode, a therapist joins us to share those tips, plus: 

• The goal of therapy and the temptation to idealize healing

• A tool for dealing with troubling thoughts

• The struggle to put words to your own emotions and experiences of brokenness

If you’ve ever been to therapy and it hasn’t gone well or you’re considering therapy but you’re unsure how to make it successful, this episode is for you.

Schedule a Free Consult at St. Raphael Counseling

Find a Restored Coach

How Restored Has Helped You?

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

There are 10 things that you can do or not do in order to make therapy succeed or fail. And in this episode, we're going to break those down with my guest who is a therapist. Plus we talk about the goal of therapy and our tendency to idolize healing. We also talk about a simple tool that you can use.

My guest shares a simple tool that you can use to deal with troubling thoughts. We also talk about how all of us experienced that struggle of. Putting into words, our emotions and our wounds. You're also just gonna get some really awesome quotes from this episode. And we also talk about what to do if you're dealing with a situation where you're not happy with your current therapist.

And so if you've ever been to therapy and it didn't go very well, or maybe you're considering going to therapy and you wanna make the most of it, this episode is for you. You're really gonna benefit from the content in it. And so stay with us.

Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli, and this is episode 110. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found this podcast helpful, and even healing, for tons of feedback. Graciela said this, she said, Just listen to the podcast, man, it's great. I hope many young people will listen. I wish I would have had resources like this.

When I was growing up, Karen said this, she said, what an excellent podcast. I've listened to three episodes so far, and I can relate to so much of this. There's so much isolation with being a child of divorce. And I feel I've found a community with this podcast. Again, we're so happy that we've been able to guide you to help you in your journey.

And if you want to tell us how we've been able to help you, we'd love to hear it. Just go to restored ministry. Again, restored ministry. com slash testimony, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Claire Eckerd. Claire is a psychotherapist with a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling from Franciscan University of Steubenville with two concentrations, crisis and trauma counseling and Christian counseling.

She works at St. Raphael Counseling with teens and adults presenting with various mental health questions. struggles. Uh, the team of therapists at St. Raphael Counseling serves individuals ages four and up, as well as couples, families across the front range area of Colorado with telehealth and in person options.

Uh, St. Raphael Counseling also provides testing for students who may have a learning attention or autism spectrum disorder. And so in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows.

That this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, again, if you were to take out the God parts, if you're going to take out the faith parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And so my challenge to you would be just listen with an open mind.

And again, I know you're going to benefit from it. And so with that, here's my chat with Claire.

Claire, it's so good to have you on the show. Welcome. Thank you so much. It's an honor, honor to be here. Likewise, honored to have you. I want to go into your backstory a little bit, but starting out, I'm just curious. Why did you become a therapist? Mm, million dollar question. Um, yeah, so it really was a calling, which like, In faith terms is like, yeah, that movement in my heart for, um, God, just wanting to use my talents in this way and that passion to serve others in this way.

And it really took a few years to take the leap to go to grad school. Cause I was honestly kind of intimidated by it. Um, and just the ideas in my head of what I thought it would be like, but the doors just kept opening. So here I am, and I'm really happy. Beautiful. I love it. And tell me a little bit about your training and maybe the type of therapy that you do now.

So you went to my alma mater, Franciscan University for grad school. Is that right? Yeah. And yeah, it's a clinical mental health counseling program is what it's called. Um, so we're accredited by the state. Um, and then we're also a Catholic university. It's actually Kind of the only in person Catholic, like, authentically Catholic university that has this kind of program.

Um, which is why I chose it. Um, and they also had a concentration in crisis and trauma and Christian counseling, which was really neat as well. Beautiful. Okay. I love that. And in your work now, is there a particular therapy model that you follow? Or how does that work? I'm not a therapist. You're talking to a lay person here, but I'm just curious.

Um, yeah, kind of what you're doing today. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I mostly use cognitive behavioral therapy, which I'm sure you've heard of. Um, most people that have taken a psychology class or gone to therapy have heard of it because it's one of the most popular, um, theories used and it's been around. Um, about the longest and just has a lot of research backing it.

Um, and I really love to use it. Cause a lot of it is like getting to the heart of the issue and unpacking what's true and what might feel true, but not actually be true. And, and I also just find it really compatible for people that, um, yeah, are living a Christian faith or Catholic faith and want to make sure that the, whatever theory we're using is compatible with their faith.

And since so much of it is unpacking the truth, it's, it's really compatible. Very cool. And, uh, I know some people just think of, uh, cognitive behavioral therapy as just like talk therapy, but it sounds like there's more to it than just that. And. There is a difference, I think, between like our worldview and our experience of the world.

I've, I heard, um, Bessel van der Kirk, who wrote the book, The Body Keeps the Score, talk about this recently in a podcast episode. He was basically saying that, you know, it's a good thing to have a worldview, like what you believe is true about the world. Like, you know, being a Christian or if you're Jewish, whatever, like you have a worldview, even, you know, atheists have worldviews.

But he said more important to that is how you respond to the world. And so much of how you respond to the world comes down to really the brokenness, the trauma that you've experienced and the virtues that you've developed. And so, um, I thought that was really profound and interesting. And so I love how you're able to kind of help people align their worldview with their kind of response to the world.

Yeah. Wow. I love that. I might use that. Please do. I wish I could say I came up with it, but I didn't, but I, um, I wanted to go into your story as well. So I'm just curious, what's been your experience with, with trauma, with brokenness and healing? Yeah, no, also a great question. Um, and totally has a lot of layers, but basically, Long story short is, um, yeah, I had an eating disorder starting end of middle school into high school, a little bit into college, and didn't really know that therapy was an option for me, um, just didn't.

have the knowledge, like, that it was a resource, um, and know if it was a trusted resource. So I was very skeptical of it, um, for different reasons. Um, but, uh, praise God, a priest directed me to go to a counselor that happened to be free at school at Ave Maria's where I did my undergrad. And yeah, it was super life changing and, and actually my first therapist wasn't the most impactful, but it was finally a space where I felt like I could be understood, which was new because I didn't really understand what was going on.

Why I couldn't stop when I wanted to stop some behaviors. Um, but it was actually my second therapist who really, really changed my life. Um, and was able to just speak into my story and help me understand myself and how I could make steps towards change and freedom and healing. Um, Yeah, I remember at the time thinking like this kind of little small voice like maybe I could do this someday, but probably not So yeah, Wow, beautiful.

Okay, so you had this Transformational experience that eventually led to you wanting to help other people have those same transformations, which is really really beautiful before we go deeper there I am curious about kind of that experience of waking up to the fact that you had this problem this Disorder I I'm curious, like, did you have language to put to that disorder out of the gate?

Did you realize, like, oh, I'm struggling with an eating disorder, this is what it's called, sort of thing. And the reason I ask that question is, I remember, you know, when my parents split when I was really young, and then later, or not really young, I was, you know, 11, around 11 years old, and then in the years that followed, especially in the high school, having experiences of, um, anxiety and even depression.

And I didn't have the language to put to those things, so I didn't actually know what I was experiencing. Um, I don't even know how I thought about it, but I just knew I just didn't feel right. That was kind of the way that I would talk about it. And so, um, eventually got the language and was able to recognize, Wow, okay, I'm dealing with kind of intense anxiety, or maybe a little bit of OCD here, and some depression, and all those different things.

So I'm just curious if you were able to kind of pinpoint the language, and if not, when that occurred. Yeah, totally. I have a lot of thoughts from what you said, but I'll start with I think that experience is what most people come to therapy with, like, I know something's wrong. And I know whatever I've tried is not working.

And I just need help from someone who might understand more. And I think that's probably mostly how I came to therapy. I did. I do remember like in middle school, we learned about eating disorders in my like guidance And I remember asking a friend, like, I wonder, like, do I have this? And she's like, no, no, no.

Like you would know if you had it. And then I was like, okay. But I think a lot of maybe, yeah. What was going on inside me emotionally. Like I didn't know how to vocalize how it was feeling. So I think a lot of what I learned was. I have emotions and they're neither good nor bad. They just are. And, um, it's okay to have them.

And I have emotional needs and I can like in your book, you talk about like, how do we choose healthy coping? And I really had to learn what that meant and that. I was just choosing really unhealthy coping. Yeah, no, it's easy to do and I can relate to with a lot of what you said. I love that you said that about kind of people entering into therapy often with that sense of like, something's not right, but I don't totally know how to talk about it.

And I think there is so much freedom in working with a therapist like yourself who can help you. You know, first kind of grow this awareness, recognize what you're dealing with in a sense, diagnose the problem. And then once you've done that, then you can, like you said, do all some coping strategies and then hopefully also work on healing maybe the root cause of it so that it either disappears the problem or becomes a much more manageable thing to, to go through.

So I love that you said all of that and man, there's so much we can talk about there. Any further thoughts before we move on? Um, yeah, I mean, there's so much more we can talk about, I think. I just like that you use the word manage, because I think often people come in like wanting to fix the problem or wanting to get rid of anxiety, but anxiety, like, everyone has it even, like, The perfect mother of God was anxious when she couldn't find her son and it's really more about how can I manage this better and learn more about myself so that I can do that.

Yeah, no, and I think those, um, those tactics are so important. And I do think, I do think there is hope that in some scenarios, I don't think every wound can be healed to like a hundred percent. But I've seen evidence that there are, there is the possibility of even going beyond the management. Um, but what often I think needs to happen, like you're saying is like, we need to at least get some sort of like, you know, handle on the situation, some sort of, like you said, coping mechanisms to like make it through.

Um, and then hopefully we can go from that just like surviving or, um, kind of getting by to then. You know, thriving. And so maybe, um, yeah, would you talk about that a little bit? I'm just curious kind of what you've seen in your life too. Can wounds be completely healed or is that kind of a pipe dream?

Maybe that is too wishful. Oh, I like this. Um, uh, this is a very interesting question. I think The way I usually conceptualize it based on my own journey and just people I work with is like, there's still a scab usually, but I mean, we also have in our body. There's ones that don't have scabs. So I think maybe some things like do really become a part of your past that you, yeah, there's no scab.

It just is something you worked through. But I think, The way I usually think about it, especially with mental health struggles is like, there usually is a scab because even like, um, like compulsive behaviors such as eating disorder. Like if you have struggled and learned how to use it as an unhealthy coping, it is still something that you might be tempted to do again.

And you just have to kind of be aware. I have that scab. It's been healed. But if I find myself needing to cope emotionally, I need to be vigilant of like, what is healthy coping? And if I slip up, what supports do I have? What do I need to do to get back on track? That's good. And that makes a lot of sense.

And I do think different wounds can be treated differently. And I do think You've probably seen this too. Some therapists or therapy models are more effective at treating certain things than others. And I like to use the analogy of the medical world or our physical bodies when we're trying to heal them.

So, you know, there are situations where if you were to break your wrists or your arm, that can be completely healed. Now there is, there's going to be the tissue that builds up. I don't know why I can't think of the name, the um, the fractured like bone or the tissue essentially that, you know, develops in response to the broken bone, which actually can make it right, stronger if I'm getting that right.

I'm not a doctor or a therapist, um, as you can tell. But yeah, I think, I think there's something to be said for that. But the way that I like to think about healing is in the Google definition of healing, which is like the process of becoming like healthy and whole. And I think that does look different in different situations.

So I do think in certain situations, Maybe a wound can be healed to the point where you don't even recognize it was there in the, at all, to begin with. Whereas others, like you said, there is maybe a continual, like, scar or scab. Um, whereas others, there might be a continual limp because it's something we just haven't figured out yet how to heal.

And that's where maybe I'm a little, um, idealistic in my thinking about healing. Because I think, There conceptually potentially is a way to heal all these things, but maybe we just haven't figured it out yet, or I don't know, you know, what you think about that, but I think there is the potential in the future, maybe that we, for example, come up with better models, and I've seen some of them to heal trauma and that work better than things we've done in the past and almost maybe eliminate or make it, like you said, way more manageable to deal with that trauma.

So I don't know if that's making sense, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Curious what you think about that. Yeah. I, it's actually funny. You bring up like the kind of idealism appealing. Cause I remember in my internship, which I did at Francis skin for students, um, I used to write in my treatment plans, like the goal is to like reduce the anxiety or reduce.

And my supervisor was like, That's what he was like. No, it's not. It's to manage, um, because, um, to reduce like it kind of creates this sometimes impossible standard. And I'm trying to think of like, it's hard to talk in general, generalities, because I'm trying to think of some specifics, but like, especially related to emotions, because a lot of mental health stuff is all related to like our thoughts, emotions and behaviors.

And it's like, we're just never gonna get rid of. Even negative emotions like they're always going to be part of the human experience. I totally agree with that. Yeah. And that makes sense about, you know, especially very common experiences. I think, um, kind of what I've seen and I love that we're kind of, you know, Going around this topic, um, and kind of poking at it because it's an important one and I like that you said kind of the Idolism of you know healing because I think it we can fall into that But I think there is it is really interesting to see kind of some things seem to be able to be healed more than others And others maybe not as much and I think of like, you know stage four cancer It's obviously Maybe it's so far progressed that it would be really, really difficult.

Maybe in the future, we'll come up with a way to heal that, perhaps. I don't know. Um, but right now that would be maybe not possible to heal. Whereas, you know, breaking your, like I said before, you know, breaking your ankle or something. Um, we could get to a point where that's healed to almost as if it didn't occur to begin with.

But at the same time, I like what you're saying. When you have these experiences, these emotions that are just like a normal part of human life, we can't like chop those out, nor would we want to. And so I think that's, um, that's an important point that you made. And I'm glad that you made it as well. I, um, I also just wanted to touch on a little bit about, um, just the importance going back to what we were talking before of.

Being able to put your emotions and experiences into words, um, that seems to be so much of the point of therapy, like we were saying before, and I remember reading Dr. Susan David's book, Emotional Agility, um, really benefited from that book, and one of the things that she talks about is just how important it is to put your emotions into words, and she even talks about alexithymia, Which for anyone listening who doesn't know, it's like the inability to distinguish between and put into words your own emotions.

And that inability greatly handicaps you. It greatly holds you back from being able to manage or, you know, cope with things and even maybe to move beyond them to close that chapter in your life. And so. I think there's a lot of beauty to that. And so I do want to transition into kind of talking about therapy.

Like, how do you make therapy, um, effective? How do you make it productive? How do you make it fruitful? Um, or whatever word you would use to, you know, talk about it. So I'm curious there. Um, let's start with the negatives. Like, how do you guarantee that therapy like won't work? Yeah. I think the only time it won't work is if you don't show up, if you schedule an appointment and don't go.

And sometimes it might take scheduling a few times before you get the courage to go, because, I mean, you and me both have been in therapy, and it can be, like, not something you want to do. And I think... Showing up sometimes is all you can do and sometimes maybe you show up for a while and that's all you can do.

And then maybe eventually, hopefully you can start to open up and get comfortable and realize this like is worth investing in. This is worth being vulnerable for, um, and. It's worth trying to understand myself better so that I can move more towards healing. That's really good. Yeah. And so that's a great way to guarantee that therapy won't work if you don't show up.

Um, and I guess, I don't know if we want to go through these and do just the flip side of it, but I guess we're going through like what would contribute to making it helpful and healing. So we could, I guess, do both at the same time. So showing up, that's the first one. Um, what else would you say is an ingredient or factor in making therapy successful?

Successful? Yeah, um, I think, like, being honest and humble, like, just having the space where you can even just be honest, like, I don't know what's going on, or I don't know if this makes sense, but this is my best guess, like, something we'll say as therapists is like, Just give me your best guess. Like, try your best to describe this and maybe I can fill in some gaps based off of other people with similar experiences in my education.

Yeah, but I think Oh, another point on that is one of my favorite professors from grad school. Um, he said, and, um, he's not Catholic or anything. Um, but like awesome professor, he said, like, there's such humility that comes with therapy. Like it's a great act of humility, which is a virtue. It's the crown of all virtues.

So I think knowing that just the act of therapy, um, It's helping you grow in virtue and honesty, humility, and many others. Courage can help encourage you on the way. Um, yeah, I like that. Okay. So we have, so far we have just showing up. We have being honest. So telling the truth, um, we have being humble. So not being like egotistical or prideful, and then we have being courageous is another one that I wrote down.

Um, so to flip them on their head, if you don't show up, if you lie and you're not honest, if you are super prideful and arrogant and don't want to admit, you know. To a weakness or a wound and if you kind of shy back from going into the hard things, meaning you're not being courageous, you're being cowardly.

It won't work. So, um, but, but if you do those things, it will work. Another one I was thinking of, which you alluded to, um, and even said, I think is just the vulnerability component. And that goes along with every, the other ones that you said, but just like this willingness to kind of be open and to spill out your heart, just being like, yeah, Hey, this is where I'm at.

And I found such freedom there in my life, especially when it comes to therapy, but also with just mentors of mine who are able to, you know, kind of walk with me through really difficult things. I think we all fear being completely vulnerable with someone, um, because we think that if they saw how broken we were, they wouldn't love us.

They wouldn't want us. They wouldn't, you know, give us any sort of time and attention or love. And what I've found is if you Pick the right people to be vulnerable with. It actually makes them love and respect you more because it takes an incredible amount of courage, like you said, to be able to open up that much.

So, yeah, I'm curious what you've seen in your own life going to therapy, but also being a therapist when it comes to vulnerability. How important is that? Yeah, I love the topic of vulnerability and learned a lot from Brene Brown's book, Daring Greatly, um, on vulnerability. Um, I don't agree with everything she says, but I think she does a good job of like explaining it and explaining like how to do it well.

And I think like. What you described as like it being scary or fearful to share with someone. Um, I think a lot of that comes from like real experiences when you try and maybe what you're sharing is too uncomfortable for someone they don't understand or they haven't. Had experiences with that themselves, so they just really don't have the words or maybe there's judgment or things that might make you feel, feel really fearful to do that again, because it might have been painful therapy.

Hopefully, I mean, not every therapist is perfect. It's also. Humans doing it, but hopefully it can be that space where you can know that this professional is someone I can trust and someone who's not going to judge me and someone who is going to validate my experience and help me understand it further.

Um, and hopefully they're, I mean, they're usually an empathetic person. Otherwise they shouldn't have made it to grad school. So good. No, um. So much to say there, but I do want to touch on something where I think everyone kind of leaned in when you said it is that, um, therapists are human too, and not all therapists are created equal.

You said that before as well, and, you know, the first therapist you had was helpful, but it wasn't as impactful. And so I'm curious about that. Like, what do you do if you're in the, in the seat of being the one going to therapy, and maybe you're with a therapist who doesn't seem to be. Kind of working out for you, or you're not really, maybe they're not treating in the way that you would hope.

What would you advise for someone in that situation to do? Yeah, great question. Um, And I'll start with, I think, coming to therapy with an open mind is, is really important. Cause I, I've seen... Some people, and I kind of was this myself, like coming with an agenda or like being skeptical of therapy. And so quickly judging like, Oh, the service isn't for me or counseling can't work because I can't find the right therapist.

And I just encourage you to. Persevere and have an open mind and try a therapist and be willing to admit, like, if you feel like, do I feel comfortable sharing anything with this person and it might take a little bit of time to build trust because even though they are professional, yeah, they still are a human and it takes time to build trust, just like in any relationship, but usually a little quicker in this professional relationship.

So I think. Thank you. Being open minded and tuning into like your experience and if it's, if you're feeling like, okay, this isn't helpful anymore, um, that's a good time to be like, um, is it because I may be feeling more confident and don't need therapy right now or is it because I want to try another therapist, um, which is so real because sometimes it's even just the personality you don't jive well with and that might prohibit you from getting the therapy you need.

Yeah, I love that. There's so much freedom there. And I think that's good. And so in that situation, what's something maybe someone could say to that therapist that they're working with, um, instead of maybe just like ghosting them and never showing up again? Um, I'm curious, cause I think there's probably a right way to do that and a wrong way to do to kind of break the relationship or say like, Hey, this isn't really working for me.

So what would work well in that situation? If someone may be listening right now is finding themselves in a situation where they want to try a different therapist. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if there's necessarily a right or wrong way. Like often people do just ghost. I mean, not often, but sometimes. And, and like, we understand as therapists, but I think what might be courteous, um, cause it's still a relationship and like, as a therapist, like I care about all my clients.

Um, so like, if someone says like, Hey, like I'm, Okay. I don't need to schedule another appointment or like I'm going to cancel it. I'm not interested in continuing therapy at this time. Like that's, that's enough. And if you want to share more, feel free. And I think, yeah, I mean, if anyone ever says like kind things to me that it does, it means a lot, you know, cause I care about that person.

So yeah, I know that your words. Um, can mean a lot to a therapist. Um, but also if you feel like this wasn't a good experience and I just want it to be done, um, like just being direct and short and clear is enough. I'd say, okay, that's good advice. Yeah. I like that. And I've had therapists in the past where just, yeah, there was something off, like we weren't clicking.

Um, so had to move on, uh, at the same time. There was a therapist. I remember when I was at Franciscan, I was working with him there. And yeah, it took me maybe like nine months to like a year. I did a year and a half of therapy when I was at Franciscan. Um, and in college for anyone doesn't know Franciscan University, but basically I, um, yeah, it took me probably like a year or so to really get to like the deep stuff, which probably prideful.

But, uh, But it took me that long. So I think sometimes, like you were saying before, it could just mean you haven't progressed to that point yet, or you're not maybe willing to take that risk and kind of open up and be, be more vulnerable than maybe you have been in the past, um, because you're scared. And I totally get being scared.

I mean, I know you get that too. Yeah. And I think part of it totally could be that, but it could also just be like therapy can kind of be this. Almost new language of like talking about my feelings and maybe I've never done that before Maybe I haven't even tuned into what I am feeling like sometimes we go through life.

Just thinking okay I get angry sad and happy and I don't even have words for other emotions and there's so many so like a lot of A lot of where people start that I've seen is like just tuning into emotions and thoughts and getting comfortable with that habit so that I can then know how to meet my needs and know what I need to do and, um, know if I'm engaging in unhelpful or true thoughts and become more aware of that.

And also like. This is kind of back to a point you had earlier, um, but when we're able to develop that language to describe ourself to, it then gives us the language to tell those people we know and love and trust and, and to the more you know someone, the more you can love them. So it really gives people the opportunity to love you better when you're able to articulate what's going on better.

No, I love that. That's such an excellent point. Going back to the, um, yeah, this whole idea of like, how do you make therapy successful or sabotage it on the flip side is, um, the homework, like often therapy sessions will end with something you need to do or think about, right? And so I think it's obviously very important to, to do that homework, but I'm curious if you'd talk a little bit more about that and if there's any other things you think that make therapy fruitful, successful or not.

Yeah, I like just the two terms of like implement and invest. So I think checking like your level of investment, like am I making time not just for my hour long or 50 minute therapy session? Like, am I also making time to process and learn healthy coping and have space if I need it to deal with what I'm dealing with?

Um, and then, and am I making that a priority? So am I invested one? And then two, am I implementing it? Cause like, you're not going to get much out of it if you're just like listening in the therapy session, but not implementing what you're talking about. Like you might be in a therapy a long time before it gets effective.

So I think, um, and implementing doesn't have to take a lot of time. It's just for, yeah. Like that tuning into my emotions and thoughts and. Those needs and, um, other there's a whole I could go off on on all of that. Um, I think that and then, yeah, something else I just wanted to mention was, um, support. So whether that's from friends, like, I think the more you can.

Like, it's so great that you're opening up to someone, like your therapist, but it's even better if you could start also opening up more to friends and, and maybe support groups, like, depending on what you're struggling with, those might be good. Um, yeah, because for different struggles, sometimes your friends don't really understand and you might need a support group of other people who do understand what you're going through to really not feel alone.

And it's Crazy how, if people have support, how much more efficient therapy is, like how much more quickly the healing process goes. Talk about that a little bit more. That's fascinating. I love everything that you said. I totally agree with that. But yeah, um, about it being quicker and I don't know if easier would be a word we'd throw in there.

Maybe not. But, um, quicker. Yeah. I'm really curious about that. Yeah, and. This is kind of my own theory, so take it with a grain of salt, but, um, This isn't a PhD dissertation. No, no, no. Um, but I think, like, the goal of therapy is to teach you skills for your own life, so you don't need a therapist. And, not that you won't never need it again, but, like, it's a tool.

Like, the point isn't that you're in therapy the rest of your life, but, like, I really see it as, Something you need, and then you learn and then you don't need. Um, and I think a huge part of that is being able to communicate your emotional needs with friends and family and other supports. And once you're able to do that, like.

Your need for a therapist, depending on what you're struggling with, could decrease and, and then, like, if you're having a bad day, like, you have that healthy coping of, like, I can call this friend and they can speak truth into maybe my thought spiral or my overthinking and it, it really gives, yeah, just that opportunity for love and truth to be spoken and for you to know you're not alone, like, even that, knowing you're not alone can alleviate so much Weight of mental health struggles.

Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, there's so many bad things that happen when we're isolated as humans. I mean, it's people, a lot of people have talked about this, but it's so interesting that one of the worst punishments that you can enter if you're in prison is solitary confinement because there's.

Basically, a misery may be no greater than that. And I know all the introverts are like, maybe that wouldn't be so bad. It's like, no, that would be miserable, even if you're an introvert. Um, but wow, so many good things, Claire. Um, just to kind of summarize the last few points that we talked about is like, be open minded going into therapy of maybe trying different things.

Um, if you want to guarantee it won't work, be close minded, be, you know, hardheaded. Um, also. Yeah, implement, uh, like you said, and invest, and the way I threw it out there was like do, do the homework, do the work that comes with the therapy, not just the therapy itself, um, and if you don't do that, if you just go and talk and never put it into action, you can be guaranteed that it won't work.

And then you said, uh, also just, That that support as is huge. So if you don't have a support system, if you don't have friends, if you don't have maybe family members who can walk with your mentors as well, then you can guarantee that it won't work. But if you do, it's going to, like you said, the healing is going to happen faster.

Uh, which is really beautiful and really encouraging as well. The other one I would just add here, picking up on something you said is kind of building in some, you talked about prioritizing and I think in order to prioritize, you need to build some cushion into your life, which I'm the worst at. So I'm talking to myself and you guys all get to listen.

But, um, but it can be so easy to, especially if you're kind of like this type A, like overachiever type to just like, kind of pack your day and your life with like, I'm going from this thing to this thing to this thing and doing this task and working on this project. And it's like, cool, you know, you're going to wake up at the end of life and you're going to be like, man, I kind of.

Destroyed myself. That's not the purpose of life is just to be productive. And so I think if we want to become, um, more human, become more virtuous, become, um, more loving and live like richer, happier lives, it's really important not to have, um, ours. schedules, like constantly booked, like we need some of that cushion or margin, um, to give us the ability to, you know, do the homework from therapy or just to enjoy like beautiful experiences and do those things that really give us life.

And I think we, especially as Americans, maybe everyone else listening, who's not in the States, like is better at this. I know Europeans listening, like you guys are way better at this than we are. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I've, I've noticed that that's necessary as well. Awesome. Yeah. And I just have a few thoughts about what you said.

One is, I, this is just like a little thing and also from my supervisor at Franciscan, but he didn't like to use the word homework. Um, and I've kind of adopted that from him instead. I'll use challenge and I like it. Yeah. I like it because Like, I always tell people, I'm not grading you. If you don't want to do something, you don't find that you do it, let's try something else because we really want it to be something you can implement and use in your life, like not just now, but like long term.

So like, like something I often use is a common cognitive behavioral therapy tool called thought records. Super simple, but super helpful. I can Talk all about that. But, um, sometimes people don't do it and don't like it. And I'm like, great, like, just be honest and we'll try something else. Cause there are other strategies, but I like the word challenge because really what we're trying to do is just grow into more, into more wholeness, into more of who God made you to be into more of freedom and peace.

Um, so challenges is what helps us grow. Beautiful. No, I like that. And that's a way better way to say it, especially with, when you have the grading aspect, that's not, not super helpful. So I, I totally agree. Thanks for clarifying that. I really appreciate it. Um, the thought record thing, would you explain that a little bit?

Oh yeah, sure. Oh man, I could talk a whole podcast about this. Um, so it's basically a short structured journal entry. Um, And like the one I, if you googled it, you'd find a bunch of different templates because it really is a very common tool in cognitive behavioral therapy. Um, but the one I like is just simple, like from therapistaid.

com or org or whatever. And it just has... Um, you write down the situation, thought, emotion, behavior, and then an alternative thought. And I tell people like a good time to do a thought record is if you notice like I'm overthinking or I'm caught in a thought spiral or, or I feel a big emotion, like I feel super anxious.

Maybe like I even feel it in my body. Like my, my chest is tight. My stomach's churning. Um, Like those are kind of red flags of like, this is a good time to do a thought record and kind of, and there's so many benefits. Like I really could talk a lot about it, but just to be brief, like one is it can stop like the thought spiral and be that space to just reflect before you go down that rabbit hole, which can.

Which in cognitive behavioral therapy, like through evidence based research, they've concluded that our thoughts and emotions are congruent. So that means that, um, if I can stop unhelpful or untrue thoughts, that impacts my emotion and my mood. So I can change my mood by becoming more aware of my thoughts and not engaging as much in unhelpful or untrue thoughts.

And a thought record is a tool to do that. Um, and, and then. Just one final note on that is, um, doing it also can be really good content to bring to therapy because sometimes for some people it's harder to like remember what thoughts or remember or even articulate like I had a really hard day and I don't even know I don't have the language but actually I wrote it down and sometimes for internal processors it's actually really helpful and I've seen it like help not only you know Moment thoughts like we call them automatic thoughts.

So those are like the first layer of thoughts and cognitive behavioral therapy and then there's beneath. Those are like irrational beliefs, which are is exactly what it sounds like. It's irrational. Not true, but I really believe it sounds so good. Like, and that's usually. Like under that is core belief.

So it's basically irrational beliefs. I've had my whole life, usually from wounds and because we, and we all have them because we live in an imperfect world. Um, so thought records can help you change automatic thoughts that you, so that you can then change emotions. And behaviors related to it, but it can also help you detect irrational beliefs.

So that you can bring that to your therapy session and further unpack what's under this, like what layers of wounds do I have that make me believe this thing that I know isn't true? So good. No, I really like that. Both, um, the thought record and. You know what you just mentioned to the different layers of thoughts and beliefs.

That's super helpful. Super good. And it's crazy how if you, there's a lot of people that talk about beliefs that I think it kind of becomes this thing that people tone out to a bit. Um, but I think it is, it's so, so important because if you bust just like one of those untrue beliefs, it can totally change the way that you approach life.

Um, to the point where I've seen people, I remember talking with a friend who, It's a physical therapist and he, you know, broke into running his own business, like, which is not an easy thing to do being an entrepreneur. And, um, there were certain beliefs that he had, which sounds kind of against that kind of superficial hokey, but it's not when you see it in action that once he kind of addressed those and be like, man, I, you know, always thought this way about like me and running a business.

And once he was able to break through that, his business started like growing and he started. To be able to succeed in the whole entrepreneurial thing, which is really, really beautiful. So there are concrete examples. It's not just some of this, you know, again, like vague thing that you just swirl your head around all the time.

And I'm not saying you're saying that, but I think a lot of times when people hear us talking about this, they think that that's it. No, it's like, it can be very concrete in your own life if you bust those, you know, kind of untrue beliefs. Absolutely. And we could talk a lot more about that too. Um, yeah, I just, I love cognitive behavioral therapy and it's, it's what helped me and what I really just find to be so impactful with my clients.

I like that. Yeah. And I think sometimes it gets a bad rap. Um, people maybe reduce it to just like thought. Uh, talk therapy, um, but I think it, yeah, from what you're sharing now, there's so much more to it as well. And I have benefited from it too. I've benefited from other therapy models as well, but um, I have benefited from, uh, CBT.

So thank you, um, for, for going through all of that. Any final items that you wanted to touch on when it comes to how to make, uh, therapy fruitful? Uh, back to when you were summarizing it, um, you had summarized like support helps. Um, yeah, just expedite the process. Um, and I just wanted to add that, like, if you don't have support, that's okay.

Like, you can work with your therapist on how can I get creative and build my support. And sometimes that's a great place to start. Um, and you've already come to therapy, so you have that support. And, and building it can make a huge. different. So that's a lot of what we do often in therapy, too, is if people don't have good supports or if they're not opening up to their good supports and don't feel comfortable sharing, it's like, how can we work to get there?

Really good. And I think a lot of people. might be afraid to that they would maybe develop some unhealthy dependency on people in their lives. But that's the beauty of what you just said. It's like, you can actually learn how to have like an appropriate, like interdependent relationship. That's not over relying on that person on the other end.

And it can be really life giving on both ends, which is really beautiful. And I've seen that and I've lived that and it's, it's, it can be so good. So I love that you said that. And the only other thing that came to related to the first point of just showing up is starting. I think maybe of showing up as like the ongoing effort, whereas I think starting is like turning the key to, you know, get the engine going.

And that I think is probably the hardest part, in my opinion, Claire, like there's so many barriers that we have in our minds when it comes to therapy, where there's so many things that we maybe even just like barriers that we create ourselves because for one reason or another, we don't want to go there.

Um, but man, if you could just get started, if you can just like. Experiment. Um, I think that is really, really helpful and that's one of the ways I trick myself into doing things often is, uh, and I'm curious if you have any tips for this too, but I'll, I'll just trick myself into thinking like, oh, you know what, um, I'm just gonna kind of put on this like experimenters hat or.

lab coat and just be like, you know, I'm just gonna try it. I'm going to do one time and see how that goes. And then I'll go from there. Um, and, and I've noticed that that will get me moving way more than if I think of the totality of it because it feels too heavy and too big. Um, but I can, you know, hone in on the one little piece that just very next step and not really think about the overall effort.

At least that's been helpful for me. So curious about, uh, for you, like what. tips or hacks you have about just getting started. Yeah. I mean, I love what you just said. And actually that's the language my supervisor now uses. He's like, let's try an experiment. And I think too, like we talk a lot about overwhelm, like I feel overwhelmed and like, what do I do with that?

Cause it feels like I don't know what to do with that. And the, the really. I think the way to combat it is one step at a time, because if it's super overwhelming, if I start taking steps, just start, start experimenting pretty soon, it's going to be less overwhelming, but it's that like, okay, it feels overwhelming.

Maybe there's anxiety. So I avoid it. That's going to make it grow because you're not doing the things you need to do to make it decrease. Um, and I also think on your point that it's just, it's such a good. Outlook to like be, um, willing to not be great at things like to just experiment and try new things.

Like how much more full can your life be if you're willing to get out of your comfort zone? Boom. So good. And I, um, I don't know if this is true, but I call that like willingness to suck, like just being really willing to be like, Hey, you know, I'm going to look. Ridiculous. And this kind of maybe fits under the point of humility, but I'm going to look ridiculous.

I'm going to sound ridiculous. People might even make fun of me or judge me, but I'm just willing to be bad at this to start. And if you're willing to go through that discomfort, what I've realized in life, whether it's in like, Business or fitness or anything, managing your money, um, you're going to get further than the people who are criticizing you.

Not that it's a competition. I'm not like saying you want to beat everyone down or anything like that, but those opinions are often the things that I think hold us back. And so I think if you grow that muscle of just, Hey, I'm not going to be good at this right away. I'm not going to be a pro. How, how would I be a pro at this?

I'm starting out fresh. Like who can expect that? And I think if you take that, um, mindset, I guess, into, into it, I think you can get way, way further faster than if you kind of think about it forever and never actually. Take the first step. Absolutely. And I love what you're saying. Cause I have that same similar mindset and have to remind myself to have that mindset.

Like I have a Rocky Balboa quote of like, you ain't gonna have a life until you start believing in yourself. Um, and then another good quote, um, actually from Bernays Brown. Brené Brown's book, Daring Greatly, is Theodore Roosevelt's quote, and it's kind of longer, but it's about the man in the arena, and it's like, the one in it, like, getting bloody, like, doing it, like, there's so much more respect for him, even if he fails, than someone who doesn't try.

Love that. I absolutely love that quote and yeah, so good. So maybe we'll attach this to this episode somehow. We'll have to, might even have to figure that out. But Claire, I know we're almost out of time here. Any final thoughts or anything you'd add about making therapy fruitful? Yeah, maybe I'll just end with some Bible verses that kind of I bring up a lot in therapy.

Um, so even if you're not, um, religious, like just, I would just encourage you to have an open mind. But, um, yeah, kind of the top three ones that I bring up a lot are 1 John 11, which is God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. And I think I love this because it's just like, there's so much.

Beauty that comes when you bring things to the light, and that's where the healing begins. Like you can't, a doctor can't heal anything, heal something that he can't see or that you're not showing him, you're not presenting him. So I think similar with like mental health, like just bringing it to the light, like, Ooh, that's a huge first step.

Um, and then the next one is Romans 8, 28 in. In all things, God works for the good of those who love him, which I think just, oh, I love this because Like, it just validates that no matter what you've done, um, he can make it good. And like, like my story, like, he's transfigured it for beauty, and your story, like, look at what you're doing with your story, and, and anyone listening, like, he wants to bring whatever you've done.

And always like, if you come back to him, if you come back to truth, um, it can be used for good. And like the, the saying healed people, heal people. Um, so there's just so much hope in that, I think. And then the last one is 2 just my powers made perfect in weakness and that's God's power. So just it's in our brokenness that he can work the most.

So like our brokenness.

Um, but yeah, those are, uh, kind of my top three Bible verses I'd say. Beautiful. Well, thanks for sharing all that and yeah, definitely moving. And I love that quote, you know, heal people, heal people. That's super, super good. Um, man, Claire, thank you so much for coming on the show. Um, if people want to do therapy with you, I know you're in Colorado, um, how do they find you online?

How do they start that process? Yes, so you can call our main office at St. Raphael's and request me. That'd be great. I have openings. Love, would love to work with you. Um, find it such a joy. Um, and then we also have, um, our website, um, Which I'm not going to remember, but maybe we can put in the show notes.

I think it's like straphaelcounseling. com. Um, and you can look up all our therapists. We have really a really solid team of therapists. So if I'm not like the right personality for you, I, I'm pretty sure there could be someone on our team that is beautiful. I love that. And then I'd love for you just in closing to speak to.

All of our listeners who come from broken families, what maybe final piece of encouragement or advice would you give to them, especially if they just feel stuck and so broken because of all the trauma and the brokenness in their families? Yeah. Wow. I mean, I really love your book. And I think like them just having the resources you've provided can really validate a lot of probably the experiences they have.

Um, I know I actually have a few. Clients reading your book and they've expressed that and I think just yeah, like the title of your book It's not your fault and and starting there like I think you really got to the heart of the issue because it allows them allow someone to Yeah, really delve into like, okay, this did affect me and this really maybe deeply affected me because Yeah, for so many reasons that we could go into but um, yeah, I think just knowing there's hope there's healing And and taking advantage of the resources out there that like you have provided and therapy And knowing that that there's there's just so much hope.

Yeah

Again, if you're in Colorado, you can find Claire and the other therapists at her practice by going to strafeelcounseling. com or just clicking the link in the show notes. On that page, actually, if you click appointments, you can actually get a free, I think it's a 50 minute consult for free, which is awesome.

And so my apologies if in the future that changes after this recording, but for now you can get a free consult if you go to that page. And to recap this episode, I just want to go through those 10 tips again. Uh, the first is to just show up, right? Just show up to put in the work. If you don't show up, you don't put in the work, you're guaranteed to fail.

The next thing is to be honest and vulnerable. If you're closed off, if you're not honest, if you lie, if you deceive, you're not going to get much out of therapy. It's not going to work for you. Number three is be humble. Be humble. If you're arrogant and prideful and egotistical, therapy is not going to work for you.

You need to go and be honest that, you know, life isn't the way you want it to be. You feel broken and you need help. Number four is be courageous. Like therapy is hard. It takes courage, but I love this quote. It, you know, courage is not the absence of fear. It's acting in spite of your fear. And so be courageous.

It's not a place to be cowardly. Uh, if you want to, you know, Shrink back from challenges. Therapy is not for you, but if you're ready to step up, uh, and to go at it and know that you'll have the support of the therapist, you're not, you don't have to like, you know, grow all this bravery on your own, but if you go at it, be courageous, put in the hard work, you're going to see benefits from it.

So that's number four. Five is to be open minded. You might be challenged in ways that you never thought you might be challenged to, you know, address parts of your past or your woundedness in a way that you never thought you might. Need to or be able to but be open minded and you'd be surprised at how much you're capable of.

That's number five. Six is implement and invest in the challenges. So remember we said we're not gonna call it homework, but we're gonna call it challenges. Those challenges are really the key to making therapy effective. Number seven is build cushion into your life. Like we need some cushion in our lives, which I'm horrible at but I'm gonna work on to be able to to grow, to grow personally, to build virtue, to heal.

Our woundedness, our brokenness, um, be able to move on in life because if our schedules are packed and our to do lists are super long and we're always focused on that, we're not going to do that hard work that often takes a lot of energy, a lot of emotional focus in order to heal. And so number eight is, uh, build support around you.

Build support around it. You can't do it alone. Like if you want to guarantee failure, you know, do it alone. Um, number nine is start as an experiment, start as an experiment. It can be so intimidating to do everything at once. And so don't do that. Just start as an experiment, do a little bit at once, you know, go to one session.

Do the free consult. See how it goes. Maybe it doesn't work for you. I don't know. Um, but then, you know, every time just think of it as a little bit of an experiment, a little bit of a bet and go from there. Number 10 is be willing to suck or be bad at it. That's so important with anything in life. You're not going to attain any sort of a skill unless you're willing to not be great at the skill when you start, like who is exceptional.

Very few people are really great and I'm any skill when they just start. And so again, show up is number one, two is be honest and vulnerable. Three is be humble. Four, be courageous, five, be open minded, six, uh, implement and invest in the challenges, seven, build cushion into your life, eight, um, build support around you, don't do it alone, uh, nine, start as an experiment, and ten, be willing to suck or be bad.

At it also, I absolutely love the quote that Claire mentioned from Teddy Roosevelt, uh, the man in the arena, and I wanted to share that in a second. But first, if you're not in Colorado and you still want a counselor, a spiritual director, a coach, a mentor, uh, we can help. We know how difficult and time consuming that can be, but thankfully here at Restored, we're building a resource for you.

We're building a network of counselors.

It's just going to save you time and you're going to have confidence that, you know, you're finding someone who's competent, who's professional. And so how do you get on the wait list? Just go to restored ministry. com slash coaching and restored ministry. com slash coaching, or just click on the link in the show notes, fill out the form on that page.

And then once we find someone for you, then we'll connect you with them again, go to restored ministry. com slash coaching, or just click on the link in the show notes. And here's the quote from Teddy Roosevelt, titled The Man in the Arena. It goes like this. It is not the critic who counts. Not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or the doer of deeds could have done them better.

The credit belongs to the man who counts. Who is actually in the arena. Whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood. Who strives valiantly. Who errs. Who comes short again and again. Because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. But who does actually Strive to do the deeds who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows in the end, the triumph of high achievement and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring.

Greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat So good with that that wraps up this episode if you know someone who's struggling Because of their parents divorce or their broken family share this episode with them seriously feel free to take like 30 seconds now To message them if you want and in closing always remember you are not alone We're here to help you feel whole again and break that cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life, and keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#109: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

If you’re from a broken family, the holidays often bring more stress and challenges than joy. After my parents separated, I faced these challenges:

• A sad, pit-in-the-stomach reminder of my parents’ split and my family’s brokenness

• Pressure to choose between parents and balance time amid many events

• A misled desire to make everyone happy, especially my parents, often at my expense

• My emotions or other people being in control instead of me

• Feeling alone and uncertain of how to deal with it all

If that sounds familiar, this episode is for you. In it, you’ll get 5 tips to navigate the challenges and hopefully, even begin enjoying the holidays again. Using them won’t make your holidays look like a Hallmark movie, but they will improve the experience by putting you in the driver’s seat.

Get the FREE Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

After my parents separated. I remember the holidays changing. Quite a bit, then went from being joyful and even magical to them being stressful and complicated. And I remember often being more excited for them to be over than I'd felt about the holidays themselves. And if you can relate this episode is for you, you know, that people like us who come from broken families face all sorts of challenges around. This time of the year and some of the challenges I faced.

So I remember just feeling this sad pit in the stomach sort of feeling that my parents were no longer together and my family was broken. I remember feeling pressure to pick sides between my parents. Like who was I going to spend? This holiday with, I remember wrestling with this misled desire to please everyone to make everyone happy.

Especially my parents often at my own expense. And it often felt like my emotions or other people were in charge instead of me. And that left me feeling alone and just uncertain of how to deal with it all if that sounds familiar, if you can relate. This episode is for you. The first thing I want you to know is you're not alone.

There's so many people like us out there, and more importantly, it doesn't have to always be this way. .

In this episode, we're going to give you five tips that you can use to better navigate the holidays in your broken family, and perhaps even enjoy them. Again. This content is based on research. It's based on expert advice in 20 years of experience. Doing the stuff in this content has helped thousands of people.

But if you take the tips, if you execute on these steps, I can't promise you that your life, that your holidays are going to look like a hallmark movie, but I can say. That it will improve the experience and put you in the driver's seat. And so keep listening and watching. .

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents. Divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. And this is episode 109.

We're so thrilled that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard so much feedback. One man said this, he said, the holidays have always been an incredibly challenging and often painful time for me as a child of divorce. This might be even worse as an adult. Where I have to make more decisions myself about enforcing boundaries and pleasing others and their expectations.

Someone shared restored. And their podcasts with me recently, and I've really found it helpful in confirming of my experiences. This episode has some great tips for navigating the coming days and weeks, and I definitely need to work at practicing them. one woman said this about the podcast. She said a few nights ago I was struggling to fall asleep.

Anxiety has been worse lately. And it occurred to me to listen to your episode with the therapist and it helped a ton. Thank you for that. Again, we're so happy that you guys have found this podcast helpful and even healing.

Like I said before, if you come from a broken family, you don't need me to tell you how challenging and stressful this time of the year. Can be into better help you navigate those holidays. We're going to give you those five tips that I mentioned, but before we get into that content, I wanted to introduce myself in case you're new here.

Like I said, my name is Joey. And when I was 11 years old, my parents separated and later got divorced and it just brought a ton of pain and problems into my life. I remember just dealing with emotional problems, relationship struggles, and bad habits, and a lot of other things as well. And it just absolutely shattered my world.

And so over the years after seeking out solutions to these challenges and healing for my brokenness. I wanted to help other people find healing as well. And so I started this podcast and this nonprofit called Restored and we help teenagers and young adults from broken families to heal and build virtue so they can feel whole again and break that cycle.

And the main way we would do that is by producing content like this episode. In addition to hosting the show, I'm a speaker and an author, but enough about me, let's get into the tips to better navigate the holidays. The first tip is to stop trying to fix, or please everyone. So many of us from broken families have this instinct that maybe there's been so much drama and tension and problems in our families that we kind of just want to fly below the radar.

We don't want to rock. The boat. And so the quickest way will say to misery. Is truly to try to please and fix everyone. It's an impossible task that will always leave you feeling inadequate. Like I promise you, it's not your job. To clean up the mess in your family. It's not your job to fix your parents or their marriage as tempting as that can be sure your influence has its place. But it's not the same as you being in charge or responsible.

And so around this time of the year, especially your parents or other people might have these expectations of you to maybe put on a good face and to be happy. I don't think that's right. I don't think you should be forced to feel happy in a really difficult situation. I think that's actually wrong. And so you shouldn't have to pretend to be happy during this difficult season.

And just remember when you try to make everyone happy, you'll likely end up making nobody happy and yourself miserable. And so tip number one, stop trying to fix, or please everyone. Tip number two, prepare for the stress and the emotion. So not only are the holidays stressful, they also can be emotionally. Exhausting for those of us from broken film is, and so don't let it surprise you expected. Plan for it. If you don't, here's the danger, you might emotionally burnout. And do things that you wouldn't normally do in an attempt to fill your needs.

And so you're going to have a lot of regrets. And so to avoid that, just prioritize, taking care of yourself. That's not a selfish thing to do by the way. To take care of yourself in order to be virtuous and to love well and respect other people. And so think ahead, think ahead to the difficult emotions you might face. During this time of the year, if you can think back to next year, what it was like for you to, that might be helpful as well.

And then just having your back pocket one or two ways to help calm yourself. If you feel anxious or to kind of give yourself life, if you feel kind of down. And depressed, for example, in the middle of a party, if it you're getting really anxious because you're around relatives and there's a lot of tension in the air and then it's making you really anxious. One tactic can be just like stepping outside, going for a quick walk, getting a breath of fresh air, something as simple as that and your body and your emotions are obviously interconnected, intimately. So one thing you can do to take care of how you feel is just to take care of your body. And there's some really simple ways that you can do this. At the end of this show, I'm going to give you a PDF guide that you can use that we put together for you guys, which has more detailed than we're going to be able to cover in this podcast episode.

But it also is a written form. Of what we're talking about, again, that goes a bit deeper. So you need to do basically four things to take care of your body. The first is sleep. Just get enough quality sleep. Again, we go deeper into this in the PDF guide. Drink enough water. We talk about kind of how much water you should drink in there. Um, by the way that usually ends up being like half a gallon, two gallon a day. Exercise, just moving your body.

We talk about some of the benefits of that, how it can literally make you feel better and then eating healthy whole foods. And in the guide, we even talked about how chocolate and drinking sparkling water can be really helpful according to a trauma therapist.

and if you're religious, just, don't forget to be praying during this time of the year. Not only have experts found that it can calm you, it can literally make you more calm. But God can give you the grace. He can give you the strength. To endure this difficult time, especially if it's extra stressful for you.

And so ask for his help, he sees your pain and he wants to come through for you.

Also healthy distractions. Aren't a bad thing. If you're constantly in situations or with people that drain you, you need to do things that give you life that revive you. And so there's a list of ideas in the guide that I mentioned, uh, that you can use as well.

And while it's important to have alone time during the holidays at different points, again, catch your breath. And especially if you're an introvert, that's super important, but just make sure you're not isolating yourself. It can be really easy to do. And just kind of cut yourself off from your friends and maybe your siblings or other people. That really care about you and normally would give you life and intense moments.

Remember to take a breath. And to step back to pause, to think, and then to act in the way that aligns with your deepest held beliefs. It's really important to kind of step away. From those emotions. And by doing that, you'll be able to make better decisions about what to do next. And save yourself from regret.

And so tip number two, just prepare yourself for the stress and the emotions.

Tip number three, plan ahead and set boundaries with your parents. Now a good plan will naturally include when you'll see your parents and for how long it'll also set healthy boundaries. With your parents and forming them kind of how to treat you. And when it comes to the holidays, it's okay to lay down some rules with your parents.

For example, you can tell your dad or your mom, Hey, I don't really want to talk to you about. The other parent, that's an okay thing to do. It's a healthy thing to do. And, um, boundaries obviously communicated in advance. Um, as is a really good idea. Why is that? Because it's going to give people who don't agree with those boundaries or who are bothered by them to opt out of spending time with you, which is going to reduce drama for you.

And By the way, don't feel guilty about setting boundaries. Boundaries are the sign of a healthy person. So if you're new to this, I might feel like you're being mean, but that's actually not the case. You can be incredibly kind. When setting boundaries again, they're the sign of a healthy. Person boundaries.

Aren't only good for you. They're not like the selfish thing. They're also good for other people. Like your parents it'll help you to have a healthier relationship. With them, if you have boundaries and you respect. Those boundaries and they respect those boundaries as well. And it's crucial, crucial to remember also that spending time with one parent at some point, and the other parent at the other point is not betraying each of those parents.

It's not betraying your other parent, your mom. To spend time with your dad. One-on-one that? That's an okay thing to do. Healthy relationships with both parents is super important. It's necessary. You know, if you can have that. And so many people like us, what we've learned through this nonprofit is that we really benefit from spending separate days around the holidays with our parents.

So maybe you celebrate Christmas Eve with mom and Christmas day with dad or. You know, if you're in the U S Thanksgiving day with dad and, you know, black Friday or, you know, the day after with, um, with mom. And so it's okay to separate those days and not try to do everything together. if siblings are part of the equation to make sure to include them in the planning, um, although the approach might depend on, you know, how old they are and your level of relationship with them.

And although a good plan is almost always helpful. Um, no plan is perfect. And so just make sure you have some flexibility in there. And maybe have someone have a backup plan too, especially if things with your family kind of, uh, implode. but what if your relationship with your parents is toxic where you can't spend time with them at all?

First? I just want to say if that's the case, that is rough. I'm so sorry. That you're going through that it shouldn't be that way. What I'd propose in that cases. What can you do to experience some sort of family outside of your family? Like maybe there's a family that, you know, there'll be happy to welcome you in. To their holiday celebration.

And so go ahead and do that. Or if you don't have that, maybe make some sort of a celebration for you and your friends and your own. Home or do something and stat because it's really important to find that community, find those people that you can spend the holidays with. And by the way, If you live at home. With one of your parents having a plan and putting boundaries in place. Uh, it can be extra challenging.

So do what's possible do it's within your power to set those boundaries, but you might be able to spend maybe a little bit of extra time with that parent. That doesn't live at home. And in doing that, just to make sure to set those clear expectations with the parent who does live at home, you can communicate and say, you know, I don't really get to spend time with dad. And so around the holidays, I'm going to spend a little bit more time with him.

not because I don't love you or anything, but I just want to make sure that I'm giving him some time as well. And so just to make sure to communicate that, and so. To solidify your plan and solidify those boundaries. Write it down. That's that simple. Just write it down, whether that's in a document, a note on your phone, on paper, an app calendar, whatever.

And to help you guys in the PDF guide that I'll tell you about. At the end, we actually have a template that you can copy and just fill in the blanks. Uh, to schedule out, to plan out your time, um, to make a little bit easier on you. Literally just copy that, fill in the details and you're done. So that's step number three, plan ahead, and set boundaries with your parents.

Tip number four, communicate the plan.

And by far, this is the most difficult tip. Most people listening to this, won't do this, or maybe not most, a lot of you guys won't do this. Why it's scary, it's uncomfortable. And I get that. Like, I totally get that. I've been there. Uh, and perhaps you've never stood up for yourself in this way, or you're unsure how your parents are going to respond if you do this.

And so just remember I say this gently, just remember that inaction has a cost. As well, if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten. And I believe that you deserve better. And so in crafting how you're going to communicate to your parents, follow the advice of author and speaker Donald Miller.

Who's a mentor of mine. First, he says, figure out what you want to say. And then next you can figure out how you want to say it. So when figuring out what you want to say, we're talking about like the main points in the order of what you want to say, and then figuring out how you're going to say it is the word you're going to use in the method of communicating, like on the phone or through an email, something like that. And so if you can't see both parents make sure to give them a reason why too.

I know sometimes that's the reality. We're in. Maybe need to take a breather. You need to take a year off. Um, just make sure to communicate. Why like in a diplomatic way and focus more on yourself than on them. For example, you can say such things like I can't afford it, or it's just too exhausting for me right now with everything that I have going on or. Um, it's too much for me and my family.

And again, I need a break. This year. And so when it comes to the, by the way, Planning out what you want to say and how you want to say it. In that PDF guide. I mentioned we have some additional tips, um, that Donald Miller and other people recommend when it comes to communication, um, as well. And what if your parents got upset?

That might be a question that's coming to mind as well. I would say, stay calm. Right? Stay calm. Try to display empathy. By just placing yourself in their shoes. I understand that Mr. Shifts, this is new for your parents. They might be just learning how to navigate the holidays. Uh, as well. And so go ahead and have some empathy for them, but also keep your boundaries.

Like you don't need to take down your boundaries just because, you know, they're feeling hurt. And so keep in mind that, um, you're there to, you know, again, love them and be empathetic, but also to speak your truth and just let them know like, Hey, this is where I'm coming from. This is what I'm thinking.

This is what I'm feeling. And so again, to help my team and I have developed, but just copy and paste template to help you communicate with your parents. Obviously you're not going to read it off verbatim or send a verbatim text message, but it can be a starting point, especially. Especially if you're stuck and you don't know what to say. Uh, in a text message and a voice memo and a phone call, video call, whatever way you want to communicate, we give you this template that you can then adapt to your situation.

So that's step number four, communicate the plan. Tip number five, enjoy the holidays.

Now, ironically, it can be easier than it sounds to forget, to enjoy the holidays, especially for people like us. And so creating new traditions, especially if you have your own family or maybe you're surrounded by friends this year. Uh, is a great way to reset and redefine the holidays, especially if they've been really stressful and difficult in years pass.

And one great tip is just. Um, try to serve others, try to be selfless and try to break that cycle that way, whether that means, you know, serving the poor on a holiday or maybe, you know, visiting a nursing home where people are just super alone as well. And so try to break that cycle in a really selfless, loving way and keep in mind that you might need to just lower your expectations for the holidays, especially if you're spending them with your family.

Um, you might not feel the same joy, the same safety, the same security with your parents anymore. Unfortunately, I hate to say that I really. We do. but that's the truth. And again, that's hard to swallow and in the midst of that, um, just try to focus on the deeper meaning of the holiday. That could be something that kind of fills in that void a bit, try to really delve in.

So for example, if you're a Christian, you can just try to delve into dive into. The mystery of Christmas, just this fact that. You know, God became a baby, became a little weak human baby. Like it's mind boggling if you really think about, and I get some of you guys aren't religious and that's totally fine.

I'm glad you're here. And you can skip this part of the. The episode, but for those of you who are, cause I know a lot of you listen. Um, just allow that to kind of capture your attention. Especially in spite of this kind of void. that your family. Uh, may have left, unfortunately. And so don't let the stress and the challenges, um, distract you from the deeper meaning of the heart.

And so that's sit number five. enjoy the holidays. And in closing guys. If you do remember if you do what you've always done for the holidays, you'll get what you've always gotten. And as a result, The stress and the challenges from your broken family can really easily overwhelm you and cause you to do things that later. You'll regret, but there is a better way.

There is a better way. And if you execute the tips that I mentioned in this show, even though some of them are uncomfortable, they truly are. You'll be better equipped to navigate this time of the year and benefit and a lot of different ways. Like you're going to save yourself from trying to please or fix everyone.

You're going to avoid burning out from the stress and difficult emotions. Uh, you'll stay in control by planning time with your parents, which is really good and healthy thing. And you'll be setting clear expectations and boundaries that protect you and your relationships. And finally, you'll experience some relief.

You'll feel less alone and perhaps even enjoy. The holidays again. And so in the end, instead of being controlled by our emotions or the demands of maybe others, Uh, you'll be in control and remember you're not alone. And you're not doomed to experience this forever. Um, we're, we're here to guide you and to walk with you guys through the messiness.

And so if you want that PDF guide that I mentioned. Um, it's totally free and it goes deeper into these points. You can download it at restored ministry.com/holidays. Again, restorative ministry and ministry, singular.com/holidays. Or just click on the link in the description. Or the show notes and it's titled that PDF is titled five tips to navigate the holidays. In a broken family.

And by downloading that guide, you're going to get, again, all the tips that you heard in this episode, just a written down and really accessible format, but we go in further depth as well. you're also going to get those worksheets that I mentioned too, to plan out your time with your parents. Just a simple schedule, just writing everything down.

It can be super quick. Can take, you know, five, 10 minutes to do, but it will really help you, um, with setting up a plan and then communicating that plan. You also get the template for communicating. Uh, with your family, with your parents. That, you know, copy and paste for a text message and email letter, phone call, whatever you want to communicate.

And then you'll get some additional resources as well to help you navigate the holidays, but also just navigate the challenges that come along with coming from a broken family. And so, again, Just go to restored ministry.com/holidays to download that, or just click on the link in the description or the show notes. That wraps up this episode, if you know someone who is struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken family. Share this podcast with them. If you want even take 30 seconds right now to message them. And I always remember, you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep him on the words of CS Lewis, who said you can't go back and change at the beginning, but you can start where you are. And change the ending.

#108: It’s Not Your Job to Parent Your Parents | Ashton

If you’re from a broken family and you’ve struggled with OCD, relationships, overthinking, and filling a parent role for your siblings or parents, this episode is for you.

In it, Ashton shares how her parents’ divorce has affected her and her relationships. She also talks about what’s helped her heal and even offers some advice for you. 

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family and you've struggled with things like OCD, overthinking, relationships, or maybe even filling a parent role for your siblings or your parents, this episode is for you. In it, my guest Ashton shares how her parents divorce affected her and especially her relationship. She also shares what's helped her, what's helped her to heal and to move on in life and shares what can help you too.

So keep watching or listening.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panerelli. This is episode 108. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard tons of great feedback. Emily said this, she said, Truly healing five stars. This ministry has helped me through a lot. We all feel alone, yet we desire to find a community that understands the pain of being children of divorce. It doesn't define us, yet it is a part of our story. I cannot recommend this podcast enough.

Another listener said this, she said, I posted a single episode on Facebook today, and about two hours later, a lady posted that she listened to the podcast and finally, after 20 years since her parents divorce, just made an appointment for counseling. Bam. Again, we're so happy that you guys have found this podcast helpful and even healing.

To help us in return, if you've ever had an idea, a guess, a topic, or any other advice to make this podcast better, we'd love to hear from you. You can give us that advice by just filling out our podcast survey. In the survey, we ask questions like, how would you rate the podcast? You know, why do you listen?

Is this podcast too long, too short, or just right? Should we add video? Should we change the format of the show? And a lot of other questions that will guide you in giving your advice. And unlike The production of these podcasts episodes, it doesn't take five to 10 hours to answer the survey. It actually just takes five to 10 minutes to complete it.

And if you've benefited from the podcast, again, it's a great way to help us in return. And it'll also benefit you in two ways. The first way is it'll help us make the show even better for you. But also, if you fill out the survey by November 15th, you're going to be entered to win a 100 Amazon gift card.

To offer your advice, it's really easy. Just go to restoredministry. com slash survey, again, restoredministry, ministry of singular com slash survey. Just answer the questions on there, submit the form, and again, if you do that by the 15th, you'll be entered to win a 100 Amazon gift card. Again, go to restoredministry.

com slash survey, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Ashton. Ashton is a Catholic Christian woman who resides in Dallas, Fort Worth, Texas. She's passionate about how all things in life integrate with one another. She's worked as an intern for the Theology of the Body Institute and as a missionary for the Christian Renewal Center.

She wants to work in ministry and hopes to one day become a Theology of the Body coach, helping women to know the goodness of their bodies. She also has a heart for those of us who have divorced as part of our stories, and she hopes to accompany those who share. This wound, she's also very passionate about the mission of restored and wants to help many others have healthy relationships.

She also hopes one day to build a healthy marriage and family herself. Now, obviously in this episode, if you can tell we talk about God and faith, and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast.

And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. You're totally welcome. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this. Just listen with an open mind. I know that even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you'll still benefit a lot from this episode. And so with that, here's my conversation with Ashton.

Ashton, welcome on the show. It's so good to have you here.

you so much, Joey. I'm so grateful to be here. Thank you.

I've been looking forward to this, and we'll just dive right in as we usually do. How old were you when your parents separated and later got divorced?

Yeah, so I was, I wanna say nine, 10, maybe. I just remember being in the third grade, so somewhere around nine to 10 years old.

And was it kind of a one and done for you or did it drag out over years? I know that different people have different stories.

Yeah, I would say it was more of like a one and done type of divorce. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Totally makes sense. And to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, uh, what happened?

Yeah. So, um, a lot of the details are kind of vague, just 'cause I was so young, but I still do remember quite a bit. I, I just remember Um, yeah, my mom left my dad and, uh, it just was really chaotic from that point. She was like, I'm leaving you. And then just so much, yeah. Like kind of chaos and messiness and hard, um, unfolded from that just 'cause of Yeah, my dad being so surprised and hurt and, uh, so yeah.

Okay, that makes sense. And do you remember being in shock? Do you remember being surprised as well?

Yeah, I was just like confused on how to make sense of it all. Um, just being so young, just not really totally understanding what is divorce like. Yeah. Very,

very much in shock, like

No, that totally makes sense and I think that's, uh, such a common experience and, and that's actually a trauma response, as you probably will. Well know

that when something, you know, that overwhelms our ability to to cope, um, comes into our life, then yeah, we do kind of go through that trauma response.

One of the steps being . You know, being overwhelmed, being kind of in shock, kind of having the deer in the headlights, uh, look in our eyes even on, on a bodily level. So I'm curious how, you know, all of that, your, your parents, uh, divorce, everything that led up to it, but also everything that came from it.

How did that affect you over the years?

yeah, it definitely looked like a lot of us having to kind of step up and take on roles that, you know, weren't, aren't expected of Yeah. Children to take on. Um, For me, um, it definitely looked like, as looked like as the years kind of progressed with my parents' divorce and that unfolding, um, yeah, me taking on a very mature role, kind of playing mom, um, taking care of my siblings and yeah, just all of us kind of stepping up and kind of raising ourselves in ways just because

yeah, like that's unfortunately the reality of divorce is, you know, like with my dad, just having to like really s. Like, provide and take care of things financially, it was looked like. Yeah. Just him being gone a lot. And then with my mom not seeing us as much, so it just, it looked like us. Yeah. Really stepping up and taking on, very mature roles from a young age. I mean, at least for myself. Can't speak for all my siblings, but, but that's what it looked like for me. Um,

how many siblings again, and where do you fall in line?

Mm-hmm. . So I'm the third oldest. I have six sisters and one brother.

Okay. Nice. Okay. So big family. And

that makes sense if you're towards the top or towards the front that you would take on more of the parental,

uh, responsibility as well. And, and I experienced that too. Um, especially being number two in my family of six. We, um, yeah. Definitely we're thrown into that role of kind of raising our little siblings and, uh, you know, filling other roles that we really shouldn't have had to

fill as well.

So it is, it's a tough, it's a

difficult situation and you kind of feel like stuck in between two like really hard places where it's like, well, if you do kind of step into that role, it's not the healthiest thing. It's not really what it's meant to be. But if you don't, what happens to your siblings? Did you wrestle with that?

Oh, definitely, definitely. I was like, I, I mean, I have to take on this role, like my siblings need me. Like I had a lot of, I have a lot of younger siblings, so I was like, it, it just felt. You know, expected of me to take on that role, it only felt right, um, just given the circumstances. Um, yeah, and I, I know just to share too with like my parents' divorce, like it felt very much like I was playing monkey in the middle a lot with like the way that my parents' marriage broke down and just the messiness of it all. And so I'll say that was a challenge for me of like constantly having mom say one thing about dad, constantly having dad say things about mom. And so that was definitely tough and I'm sure others can relate to that and how difficult that really can be.

100% and no, there's so many difficult things you have to navigate that no one would ever think of. . Parents usually don't think of when they're considering a divorce.

Mm-hmm.

We wouldn't, as children can think that they would become a reality and then later in life we're just like, hit with them and we don't even often talk about them, but, but they're very real.

And one of the things I just wanna say to everyone listening who's maybe facing that same situation where you're kind of thrown into a role that you weren't meant to play, um, when it comes to your siblings in particular, um, I think there is . Something to be said in, in certain situations where you kind of do need to step into that role.

Um, but I would say if there's no other alternative, again, it shouldn't be you, but if there's no other alternative, keep in mind that it is a temporary thing. It's a season in your life. And that's what I had to remember too, because I think where it can become really unhealthy again, it's better the parents fill that role, that's what they're meant to do.

But if we need to at a dire necessity, . It's really unhealthy if we then continue for years and years and years and don't move forward in our own lives because we feel this perpetual obligation to our siblings. And what I've come to kind of wrestling this with, with this myself, is that moving on.

Again, assuming that you're not like putting your siblings in like on, on the street or something like that, that's not what I'm talking about. Like they need to be in a stable position. But you moving on, you growing, you hopefully thriving in life. You, um, going to where you know you're meant to be. I. Is gonna be a better example and actually be better for not only you but your siblings, uh, in the long run because they're gonna see you hopefully go on and build healthy relationships.

They're gonna see you hopefully build a good, beautiful marriage. And that probably in itself too, um, is gonna be one of the most inspiring and helpful things for them because as you know, Ashton, one of the things that people like us struggle with the most is our own romantic relationships. Like it's a real

struggle to even believe that love can last, that marriage can last because we saw it break apart and the marriage that we know best our parents.

And so when it's our turn, we're filled with all sorts of anxiety and fear, and we just feel lost. Like we don't know how to go about building. A marriage. And so if we can be that example to our siblings about how to move on, move forward in life in a healthy way, I think that's gonna do far more good than if you were constantly by their side, you know, raising them as as their parent.

Would you agree with that?

Oh. Mm-hmm. . Hundred percent agreed.

it's a tricky thing to go through though. And, uh, there, you know, I wish there were, that's just the principle that we have found, uh, helpful. But obviously that's not as like black and white in some situations. So that's where it's so helpful to have like mentors and guides in your life who can walk with you and help you apply the principles and make those decisions, um, in, in the unique kind of nuanced situations that, that you find yourself in.

So anything else I guess you would add about how you know your parents' divorce affected you?

so I would say that some of the ways that I coped that were I guess that, yeah, the ways that my parents divorce affected me, and I guess to an unhealthy extent, is that, yeah. With taking on that That very mature role at a young age, and kind of playing mom it, yeah, like it kind of affected, um, my relationship with my siblings a little bit 'cause I was constantly like frustrated about things needing to be clean.

And I would say that's probably falls into one of the unhealthy ways that I coped. And I mean, thankfully, I guess I could have coped in a lot unhealthier ways and not to shame anyone that has fallen into un, like there's a lot of unhealthy ways to cope, like drugs, alcohol, all that. Um, thankfully I didn't get into that, but. I guess an unhealthy way I coped was, I guess through cleaning and like,

if everything is clean, like everything's gonna be okay. And it kind of became this like obsession. And um, I would say that that was, you know, one could say, well, that's kind of a healthy way to cope, but to the extent that I went about it, it wasn't healthy.

It became so controlling of like, I can't just relax and be a kid because I have to make sure everything's clean and everything will be okay if everything's clean and I stay healthy. And so I would say that that was one of the. the. negative impacts of my parents' divorce on me is yeah, just developing this like extreme around like cleanliness and, I mean, thankfully it's gotten so much better as I've gotten older, um, and really entered into that healing journey.

But that was something that was super challenging of just, yeah, not being able to be like other kids and not be afraid of germs and just constantly feeling like everything has to be clean for everyone to be okay.

No, that totally makes sense. There's a few things going on there, I think, and I, 'cause I experienced some of that myself, like falling into O C D and I have, we've seen a trend a bit for people like us from broken families falling into that. I don't know if there's any official research, we haven't reviewed that yet, but,

um, it almost seems like we could be more likely to

Become obsessive compulsive.

And so, um, yeah, I think there, there's a few different things there. One, I know for me it was almost like a way of Yeah. Exerting control in a very chaotic, uncontrollable situation.

And so, yeah. You know, for me it was not necessarily like cleanliness, but more organization, just things being in there like.

Right place as opposed to like, you know, spraying everything down, making sure there weren't germs. And so, but I know other people who, yeah, they were really, really debilitated by like a fear of germs and things like that, um, that kind of attached itself to, you know, whatever they had been through before that in their family.

And to the point where, you know, these things get extreme. They can get really unhealthy where, you know, you're . Skin becomes raw or you know, it, it just gets to this really un unhealthy extent. So yeah, I can totally relate there. And, uh, yeah, there, there's so much more to say there, but, um, but that makes sense.

And, uh, when it came to your relationships, I'm curious, you know, uh, especially dating relationships and maybe relationships with men, like how did that all play out? How did you know what you came from in your family, the effects of your parents' divorce impact your relationships?

Mm-hmm. So I would say like when I was younger, um, like going into high school, it definitely looked like wanting to try to, um, fit in and like, you know, attract attention, um, through like the clothing that I wore and just like, yeah, just I think seeking attention in the wrong ways. And, um, so that was, I think, yeah, maybe a negative thing. Um, but when it came to dating, I, I really think there was a great fear around it. 'cause I've done very little dating, um, to this point. Um, but I would say that one of the struggles has been just, yeah, this fear of like, I, like how could, yeah, I just am so broken. Like how could I enter into a relationship and like, yeah, just be accepted in all of my, my mess.

And I mean, thanks, thank the Lord for restored. Um, because that's helped me so much to realize that yeah, like I can build like a healthy marriage one day and like I can have healthy relationships and just like really learning those practical tools and, um, skills and stuff to like grow in virtue and to, to really show up in a, and have a healthy relationship.

And, um, So, yeah, I'd say that there's just been, like in the dating that I've done just a lot of fear and overthinking and, uh, just, yeah, just not like, um, like it's just been a lot more challenging, and just, yeah, like a fear of even entering into it at all. Um, but yeah, on the flip side of that, I would say one of the positives has been, um, it's really over the years actually, uh, just Allowed me to, or I've just grown in this like desire to really understand like what is love. And so, my years of being single and not really dating, um, I. I've kind of, I would say like it's been this like research project, mission, whatever you wanna call it, of like really trying to understand what is love.

Like if I get married one day, like what am I actually saying yes to?

And um, and so it's been this beautiful journey Yeah. Of just really trying to understand how to love, what is love and um, I think that, um, yeah, that's probably one of the blessings of my parents' divorce is it's put me on this mission to really understand what love is and what is authentic love and how can I really love and, um, especially like showing up in a dating relationship.

How can I show up? Well, and um, actually just wanna share for any of the ladies that happen to listen to this, I went through a course called, Intentional summer, uh, intentional singer, single the intentional single, sorry, I'm stumbling over my words here. This previous summer. And, um, that was an incredible course, uh, for single, even dating women to really understand Yeah.

Like how to process your emotions, like how to, um, yeah, just how to show up well in dating and, uh, that was just a great, um, resource for me, a great course to go through.

Love that. Yeah, no, I, I can relate to so much what you said, not about being a single woman, but I can relate to a lot of the other stuff. So, um, yeah, just the fear that, you know, uh, just not believing that love and marriage actually lasted. I, I wrestled with all that same stuff and it was, um, it, it's a real struggle.

Like now looking back, it's like, okay, I was able to work through it, overcome it, and now, you know, be married for over five years and. Have, you know, to, uh, a baby. And so it's, yeah, it, it's amazing you can get there. Um, not that I've like made some summit, but like you can work through the fear, work through kind of the lack of like knowledge and lack of like, I don't know how to build a healthy relationship and get to what you ultimately desire, which is love.

Whatever form, you know, that might look like in, in your particular life. But it's, um, yeah, no, it's really beautiful that you were kind of set on that quest to figure out what is love. And interestingly, for everyone listening. That's what marriage researchers have actually found as a, an essential ingredient for a great marriage is just having what they call a realistic concept of love.

Uh, which in other words means like the knowing, the truth about love, knowing what it's not, and knowing what it is. Um, and if you do that, I. You're gonna have a much greater likelihood of having a really healthy, thriving, happy marriage. So it's beautiful. You've been on, on that quest. And when it comes to, um, overthinking, let's touch on that a little bit,

if you're willing to go deeper there, because I think so many of us deal with this.

I know I did, especially in my earliest relationships. It was just like, man, I, I remember Ashton, it was like constantly . Questioning, like, is this the right thing? Is this the right thing? Should I be with this girl? Should I, you know, um, am I meant to be with this girl? And then also every little maybe disagreement or anything that I perceived as being like, out of sync in the relationship, I would focus on so hard to the point where all our conversations became very heavy.

Like the con the whole relationship became very heavy. It wasn't very life-giving. It was kind of like this constant thing. Are we okay? Are we okay? And um, .

Again, thankfully been able, was able to like, work through that and get to a better spot. But it was like in the moment, man, that was, that was really a, a tough thing to go through and not, not healthy.

So just curious, kind of your, um, experience going through the, the whole questioning

like you mentioned.

Yeah. Thank you Joey, for sharing that. I definitely can relate. I feel like the overthinking and even making decisions has just felt so debilitating of like, why can I not just make a decision? Why do I have to overthink this so much? And it's definitely been, yeah, it definitely was a struggle and can still be at times.

And it, it's, it's very frustrating and I, I feel like, I feel like it I wonder if it's like, because there's not, we didn't have, maybe I, for me, maybe didn't have that like secure attachment developed fully with like my parents and the breakdown of their marriage and not having them to like model some things to me. Um, I don't wanna honor them, but like, I just, just being honest, like I feel like some things that. Yeah, I, I lacked from the divorce. Um, and so I wonder if that has anything to do with like, why can't I not make a decision and why am I overthinking so much? It's 'cause like, I, I don't have that security almost.

I, I feel like that's something I've struggled with is insecurity too. Like, just not being able to be confident in, in myself. Like that's actually something that, and I'm so thankful for mentors in my life, have really helped me. But making decisions has been something that has been challenging. And they've really affirmed that in on my journey of like, Hey, you're making decisions. Like this is huge. And I'm like, oh wow. This is huge. Like, I've always struggled with that. So

Good, good for you. I'm, I'm so glad to see that growth, and I think it's so hopeful that every, anyone listening right now who, who feels the same struggle, where they feel like they can't make decisions

or they overthink everything, so that, that's beautiful. That you, you can make ground, you can get to a better spot.

And, uh, no, I, I love what you're saying about security. I think it's so key. One of the things I've noticed in people who come from intact families, especially children, like when you're younger, I think it's even more apparent when we get older, we're better at hiding things, but.

Mm-hmm.

they almost feel like this freedom to fail.

They feel this freedom to like risk, they feel this freedom to try things and not work out.

And I think it's because they have this safety net of their family, uh, not in an unhealthy way necessarily, where they can do like any unhealthy thing and they'll be fine, but like ticking again, good risks, good challenges, and so,

O one way to think about, it's like rock climbing. It's like who's gonna be the more fearless climber? Typically the one who has a harness who is, you know, attached to a rope who if they do fall, it might hurt, but they're gonna be caught. Or someone who's like, Nope, no harness. You just have to go up this rock face.

by yourself , like, of course we're gonna be timid. Of course we're gonna be extra, extra careful. Of course we're gonna overthink things and not move as quickly. And so I think that's the reality. I think that's what happens with so many of us. And like you said, thankfully you can move beyond that. You can figure out how to, um, hopefully build a bit of a safety net around you

through relationships, through mentors.

Um, but then also, yeah, just learn, um, how to move in spite of where you are.

Yeah, absolutely.

Anything you'd add to, to any of that or any, any lessons you've learned, I guess, in terms of kind of getting unstuck, not overthinking as much and making good decisions, any principles that you're using to, to do that?

I think just really just having people that can, that believe in you, that like are rooting for you, like that has helped me so much. and being able to like kind of build that trust with myself and also my faith, like just, in my life really affirming me and. Guiding me and giving me tools, leading me to resources.

No, I love that. And what I hear you saying is that, and please correct me if I'm wrong, It built confidence. Having those mentors, having those people affirm you, give you resource, give you tools, resources and tools to use, built your confidence to where you were better able to kind of stand in your own feet and make those decisions yourselves.

Is, is that

right?

Mm-hmm.

And that's totally been the experience, uh, for me as well. So I think lots of good, good lessons there, but this is such a struggle for people like us who, who come from, uh, broken families. when it comes to, to coping and healing, you know, uh, . What, what has, what's helped you? What are maybe two or three things that have helped you cope in healthy ways and helped you, uh, to heal the most? 

so when I was younger, I was in, throughout middle school and high school. I was a part of a, a sport cross country and track, and I would say that that was Huge, um, helping me to really have just this outlet and like teammates to really like lean on, um, and just get through all of the, the hard things with, um, so that was very much a way that I coped was through my sport and just pouring myself into that. friendships. Um, we, people need people. We really need people and that has been so healing for me in a way that, yeah, I guess I've Coped is through just having people who can receive my heart. Um, and mentors, like I've said a couple times, just that accompaniment. Like we need people like we really do, and that's helped me cope so much. and music, I think music

and podcast have been tremendously helpful for me on the journey. Um, worship music in particular, I've, I've, yeah, it's really helped me through a lot of low times, just being able to put on a song where I can really. Let the tears flow and like just let myself feel, um, whatever needs to come up.

And I think that's huge. I think sometimes we have this temptation to like hold it all in. Um, or maybe that's just how we cope is to just not express it. But I think I've heard, I think Sister Mary May have said this, um, healing is feeling and so it's just so huge to like really let yourself feel. And that's where I've actually, I think I really experienced a lot of healing is in those moments where I can just cry out and just let myself be angry, let myself be sad. And um, yeah, that's just been something that's been very helpful for me is to just let yourself feel all of the emotions. I think that's something I kind of struggled with was like, oh, I shouldn't feel this way.

Like I need to quickly go back to being positive, but like, Just letting yourself feel whatever you need to feel. Um, of course, not trying to stay in the negative emotions for too long, but like you can hold both. Like you can be grateful for the blessings in your life, but also be, you know, just sad. I think just something I would love to share, um, is a story actually.

So whenever I came back from, I, I was a missionary for a year and when I came back I I decided not to go back to live with my dad, who I lived with all of my life. Um, and I decided to stay with my mom, but I remember feeling really frustrated because I knew that that was gonna cause some like tension and like just, I don't know, I was just like really frustrated and angry.

I'm like, why can I just have one house to come home to? Like, I'm so, like, I was, that was probably when I actually. I really let myself just grieve the divorce in a way that I hadn't for so many years of just like being so angry, crying out to God of like, why? Like why can't I just have one family with two parents like to embrace me when I come back from being gone for a whole year?

And um, so yeah, I just share that to just express that it's so important to just let yourself feel. Um, and I know, yeah, that was helpful for me. So just wanted to share that.

I love that. No, that's great advice. And I know, again, I can relate I, those like negative emotions were ones that I like, avoided, tried to avoid like the plague and, uh, in time. Yeah, I, I was able to, to grow when I just embraced him, like he said. And so for anyone out there who, . Maybe you're in that spot right now where you try to avoid feeling sadness.

You try to avoid feeling maybe anxiety or anger or whatever is negative in your mind, and maybe you're thinking that that's the goal, to, to feel some sort of like numbness or always to feel happy. Um, that's not the goal. That's not human actually. We have all the emotions for a reason. And, uh, , I have kind of a, an odd assignment for you if, if you're in that spot, We are struggling to kind of, you know, understand your emotions, especially dealing with those negative ones.

I'd actually invite you to watch the movie Inside Out, the Pixar movie Inside

Out. It's a great, it's a great movie. It's like that. There's so many, um, awesome lessons in there about kind of the purpose of our emotions, especially those quote unquote negative emotions. And so that's the assignment. I know it's on like Disney Plus and

If you can get it, I'm sure, uh, anywhere else, uh, for a few bucks. But I would, uh, yeah, I would challenge you to watch that and see kind of where that leads you. On that. I'm curious, um, you've mentioned to me separately, and you alluded to this earlier, that resort has been really helpful for you and I'm so honored, um, that we've had the chance to just guide you and to play a role.

Uh, you are the hero, you're the one who's making it happen. Uh, but we're, we're happy to, to be with them. One of those mentors that you mentioned. And so I'm curious, uh, how have we helped you? What, what has helped you from restore? 

Oh, Joey, I am so grateful for Restored I'm, I'm smiling ear to ear over here. 'cause Restored has been, Such a blessing in my life. I'm just so grateful that I came across restored. Like I, I feel like a walking billboard for it. I'm just like restored. It's just so great. Um, but yeah, it's, it's seriously helped me tremendously.

I actually came across it when I was a missionary and I, I was just like on a search to find another podcast, and then I came across this one and I was like, Wow. Like I felt so seen in listening to like each episode, like I just wanted to keep listening. I was like, oh my gosh, like this is actually being acknowledged, like this pain that I felt, this like loneliness, this just like all the struggles that come with like being like a child of divorce, like. It, it just felt like a, yeah, just I finally came across just something that actually gave language to what I was feeling. And, and it was, yeah, just Joey, like I, I felt so reverenced in each episode for like, the pain, um, that I experienced and, um, yeah, just so thankful for, for Restored, and I've also just learned a lot.

It's helped me so much to heal. Um, Because I learned a lot of practical things through the episode of like how to grow in virtue, how to have healthy relationships, which I so desire want to learn. And so there's just been so much learning and healing through restored and then also finding out about, um, life-giving wounds through one of the episodes, which really helped me to enter more on the healing journey.

And so I just, my heart is, goes out to restore it in your team. Like I am just so, so grateful for coming across this beautiful ministry. And I, yeah, just Could scream it from the rooftops. I'm so thankful for Restore It's helped me so much and will continue to, and I know it'll continue to help a lot of people, so,

No, we're honored. Thanks for the kind words, and,

um, thank, I'm so glad. It's been helpful. We do it for you and, um, yeah, no, it's beautiful to hear. So yeah,

thank you for saying all that. And,

of course.

no, you're, you're the ones who's making it happen though. You, you're the hero and. So well done there. Um, you already mentioned a bunch of this, so this might be a little redundant, but I'm just curious, um, yeah, if there have been any, like changes you've seen or made, um, in particular because you've been consuming the content or using our other resources.

You already mentioned a couple things, but I'm curious if there's anything else I.

definitely. I feel like it's given me actually like a lot of hope, um, that I can actually, you know, enter into the dating scene, for instance, like I I've, and, and also that like marriage can last, like I found myself really believing that more. cause I think that's, yeah, definitely a common struggle for us is like, can this last, like, do I even wanna get married?

And I know for me it's, it's been a desire on my heart for so long. And even with my parents' marriage breaking down, I'm like, I've always believed that, yeah, it's possible. But restored has really given me that confidence of like, yeah, this actually is possible. So it's given me A lot of hope, I would say is the big thing. Um, yeah. Just so many Yeah. Tools and,

Love that.

No, thank you for, for all that and kind of zooming out from your story too. I'm curious, you know, I know you would say you're still a work in progress. I know. I am too.

Hundred

percent.

Yeah. But like how is your life different generally, not just because of Restore, but in general that you've kind of embarked on this journey of like healing and growth and building virtue.

How have you seen your life change from maybe before to where you are now?

Yeah, absolutely. The healing journey is an ongoing journey. It's, it's lifelong, it's it's, yeah, it's an ongoing journey and I'm, it's, I'm here for it. It's worth it. It is so painful at times, but it's. it's. yeah, painful, messy, but beautiful and so glorious and so worth it. Um, and I would say that, yeah, just upon entering on the healing journey, um, I've noticed that I'm more free. I, I live a life of more freedom, um, and confidence. and yeah, just a, I just see differently than I did before. Um, and it's, it's, it's very beautiful. Um, Yeah. It's not to say it's all easy in rainbows and sun sunshines all the time, but entering on the healing journey has really allowed me to experience, yeah, freedom and just a lot of, yeah, just like compassion and, um, yeah, just there's so much I could say there, but those are some things that come to mind.

It's just, I feel a lot more free and hopeful.

Love

that. Beautiful. And, and you deserve that. You're worth it. And everyone listening is too. So

that's, uh, so good. And if your parents were listening right now, um, what would you want them to know? Like what, what would you say to them if they were listening?

Yeah. I would want them to know that they are so loved and I'm so thankful that God, um, gave me them as parents, um, wouldn't want any other parents and that, God, that God just forgives them and loves them and I forgive them and they are just, yeah, just gifts. My parents are such gifts and all of the. Brokenness. Um, from the divorce, there's still a lot of beautiful, like God makes the broken, beautiful, and, um, can take all of the broken pieces and create just this beautiful mosaic. And, They're g they're gifts and very grateful for everything, even the messiness of it all. That's why I am who I am today and, um, yeah.

I could tell you really love them, and I think that's always something that . people listening to this, especially parents who maybe are divorced, there's this fear that maybe we would be encouraging the children to rebel against their parents, to hate them, to

just feel this anger always perpetually.

Um, and, and that's not the case. In the end, we, you know, there might be some anger involved. There might be some boundaries that need to be in place. There might be some really difficult conversations. Um, but in the end, what we're working toward . Is having that good, healthy relationship with each other, because that is one of the keys to being happy, is having those good family relationships.

And so that's what we are trying to, to do here, but that can't be on, that can't be built on like a faulty foundation of just like kind of not talking about the painful and difficult things, or not acknowledging that there's been hurt, that there's been harm. No, you have to go there if you want, you know, a really strong, strong relationship.

Right. Yeah, I've heard it once of like, it's honor and honesty, right? We wanna be honest with our experience, but obviously honor them as well. Honor it, so,

Ashton, thank you so much for coming on the show. If people wanna reach out to you, uh, what's the best way to do that? I know that, um, you're in the restored community so they can

perhaps join that to, to contact you, but if there's any other way, um, feel free to mention that.

Yeah. Um, so I've not really been on social media too much as of late, but, um, my Instagram handle is Ashton dot Feld and Joey can put that in the show notes. If you wanna gimme a follow on there and maybe send me a message on there or, yeah, like Joey said, the, the, a great way to reach me really right now is through the, uh, community, um, restored community.

Love it. Thanks again for your time for coming on here. I want to give you the last word. What encouragement, what advice would you give to someone listening right now who, who feels broken? Who feels

stuck in life? Uh, largely because of the breakdown of their family and their parents' divorce? What encouragement advice would you give to them?

Hmm. Yeah. I just wanna reverence that, that pain and that, yeah. Just the place that you're in right now, that you find yourself. Um, 'cause that's real and it's hard and it's painful, um, sometimes. Um, and just, yeah, I wanna encourage you in whatever place you find yourself, I just want you to know that you're loved there, that you're seen, that you're known. And, uh, I want you to really hold onto hope, even if it feels like it's super far away. I get that. Um, but I, I want you to know that there is hope, That redemption is so real that Yeah. Like the Lord redeems and, um, the story doesn't end here. Um, there's just a beautiful Yeah. Life ahead of you, and I just want you to keep holding onto hope and, know that Yeah.

Just the Lord will Yeah. Redeem every single place. Um, where there's been wounds, where there's wounds, um, where there's been deprivation of love like the Lord. Does not intend to leave you deprived of love. Like he's gonna come in and just Yeah. Like redeem. Yeah, just, I just want you to know that redemption is so real and that you are just most loved and there is hope and healing takes time. Um, but it, it's so worth it. So keep going and know that I'm rooting for you. I'm here for you.

People like Ashton honestly inspire me. When you think of everything she's been through, all the dysfunction, all the trauma, it would have been a lot easier for her to just lay down and say like, no, you know, I'm done. Like I can't heal. I can't grow. I'm kind of stuck. She could have chosen to remain a victim, but she refused.

She said, no, no, I'm going to work on myself. I'm going to heal. I'm going to grow. I'm going to pursue the life and the relationships that are really long for. And I admire that so much. And I'm so glad that restored. was able to play a role as a guide and helping her on that journey. Now, if Restored has helped you, like I mentioned before, there's a way that you can help us in return.

Now, I'm not asking you to donate hundreds or thousands of dollars, and I'm not even asking you to donate hours and hours of your time, uh, as a volunteer. I'm just asking you to take five to 10 minutes to fill out our podcast survey. And through that survey, you can offer your advice on how you would make this podcast better.

And to do that, it's really simple. Just go to Restored Ministry. So, again, go to restoredministry. com slash survey, or you can just click on the link in the show notes. Just fill out the survey there, answer the questions, submit it, and then if you do that by the 15th of November, you'll automatically be entered to win a 100 Amazon gift card.

And so, again, go to restoredministry. com slash survey. Or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Seriously, if you want to, take 30 seconds now to just text them this episode or another episode.

And always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break that cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#107: Forgiving Someone Who’s Hurt You | John O’Brien

When trauma occurs, it causes you to ask big questions. That’s where my guest found himself after being brutally attacked, almost to the point of death, by people he was trying to help. 

In this episode, you’ll hear the story of the attack, plus he answers:

• Has forgiveness been difficult for you?

• Why forgive? What are the benefits? What happens if we don’t forgive?

• How do you forgive someone who has hurt you?

Take the podcast survey

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• John O’Brein

  • Aquinas Forum

  • john@aquinasforum.org

• #058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When trauma happens, whether it's someone dying or your family falling apart or any other type, it causes you to ask big questions. And that's where my guest found himself after being brutally attacked almost to the point of death by people that he was trying to help. In this episode, you'll hear him share that story of the attack.

Plus he answers questions like, how has the attack affected you over the years? Has forgiveness been difficult for you? Why forgive? What are the benefits? What happens if we don't forgive? And how do you forgive someone who has hurt you? Intense story, but good content. Keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parent's divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. This is episode 107. We're thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast so helpful and even healing.

We've heard lots of feedback. One listener said, amazing five stars been looking for a podcast like this, finally found one that has helped me more. Then you'll ever know. Thank you. Another said, Surprisingly helpful, not what I expected. Five stars. They went on to say, I've always said that I'm okay. That what happened couldn't have changed who I was.

Of course it changed me. I still run away from many topics related to divorce, but listening to this podcast isn't like hearing from a bunch of psychologists tell me all the ways I'm really okay. It's much more helpful to hear that this is not okay, and it will never be okay. Lots more reviews like that that we don't have time to share right now, but we will in the future.

Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been so helpful. We do it for you. If you've ever had an idea, guest, topic, or any other advice to make this podcast better, we'd love to hear from you. To offer your advice, you can just take our podcast survey. On it, we ask questions like, how would you rate the podcast?

Of the options listed, why do you listen? Is the podcast length too long, too short, or just right? Should we add video? Should we change the format of the show? And other questions that'll guide you in giving your advice, which we really value. It does take five to ten minutes to complete it. But if you've benefited from this podcast, think of it as a way to help us in return.

It'll also come back to benefit you in two ways. One, it'll make the show even better for you. And two, if you fill it out by November 15th, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card. And so to offer your advice, it's really easy. Just go to restoredministry. com. Again, restored ministry, ministry is singular dot com slash survey.

Okay. Just answer the questions there, submit the form again, go to restored ministry.

My guest today is John O'Brien. John is the founder and executive director of the Aquinas Forum, a nonprofit organization based in Denver, Colorado, for faith formation and Catholic studies. He holds a bachelor's degree and master's degree in theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville and has taught faith formation to every age level.

Beginning as a high school theology and humanities teacher, he later became the director of faith formation for a flourishing parish in Denver, Colorado. During his tenure as a parish director of formation, part of his role included directing over 240 young adults in 25 small groups. He also started a monthly candlelight mass that continues nine years later and was a starting point for over 50 marriages, if you can believe that.

Uh, to help people grow in faith and develop a Catholic vision of life is the hallmark of all of his work. So obviously in this episode we talk about God, we talk about faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while knows that this podcast is not a strictly religious show.

And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit from this episode. With that, here's my conversation with John.

John, welcome to the show. So good to have you, man. Great to be here, Joey. I've been looking forward to this and let's dive right in. So, years ago you went through a very traumatic event. Yep. And I, I don't want to tell the story. I want you to tell the story. What happened there? Well, there's a lot to be said, but I just completed graduate school and got the master's in theology and wanted to begin a career in teaching at some point, but For the, for the present time.

I wanted to, uh, experience this opportunity that was presented to me. A few of my college friends were going out to a ranch in northwest Wyoming. It sounded really cool. I'd been, you know, just in the classroom forever. I was age 24. Lots of paper, lots of pens, computers, like, oh man, you spent some time in the west.

That sounds good. Mm-hmm. , the thing is, it was delinquent youth ranch and so that, that was a bit of a twist, but that sounded cool too 'cause I just wanted to go and help be a counselor. You know, just be with the kids, take care of them. Yeah, that's heroic. That's well, you know, it felt right, felt right for the time and kind of grow up experiencing maturity.

And when I got out there, though, I'm going to have to kind of keep this simple, I think, for the sake of our timing for the podcast, but you'll get the important elements. I'd only been there for two weeks. Again, it was a delinquent youth ranch. So the kids that were there were used to kind of relatively small crime.

Um, But, but some bigger, some, uh, some violence, some just kind of overdrinking, problematic child, terrible relationship with the parents. So the parents at some point, because the children are out of control, they'd have to, uh, force them to pack up and go to the ranch. Wow. Okay. So the kids didn't want to be there and one night, just two weeks into the, to my time at the ranch, they caught wind.

I was going to be the only counselor there that night. There were nine boys, middle teens, and the manager approved it. I didn't know what was going on cause I'd only been there for two weeks, but the manager approved it. I was the only guy there. Treat everything as a normal day. Uh, say a rosary before the campfire about 10 PM, put them down to sleep in their tent, all under the Wyoming high desert.

Wow. Beautiful area. So I put him in the tent, I get him in my sleeping bag, bed roll, not in the tent, just like under the stars, see the Milky Way, it's gorgeous, I was in a great mood, like I was looking forward to being out there for a year. One week later I wake up in the hospital, the intensive care unit.

Billings, Montana, and what happened was they waited until I fell asleep about 10 PM and then about 1130 They said we're gonna go through with the with with what we had planned So they had three options. The first one was to tie me up with a rope and their object is very simple I had a duffel bag next to me.

The truck keys were in the bag. So but I was in I was in the way So they're like, well, let's think of a way to get to take care of. Mr. Obi is what they called me Rob Ryan. And they said, well, let's think of a way we can take care of Mr. Obi and then take the keys of the truck and go. Wow. First option was tying me up with a rope, but they said, well, he's, he's, he's bigger than us.

And so if, if we get into trouble, that's not going to be good. Yeah. You're, you're for everyone who doesn't know what John looks like. He's a tall, strong dude. So yeah. Can't think of a joke. So I have to just kind of a lame guy But and so that was the first option just tie me up. They said that that there could be problems The second option was they could stab me, but they said well, that's too violent Then the third option they said and I had argued this is just as violent but take garden shovels try to knock me out Wow, so that's what they did They snuck out of the truck, or excuse me, they snuck out of the tent about 1130.

They picked up garden shovels that were nearby, um, we were doing some work earlier in the afternoon. We used the shovels for it. They pick up the shovels, they count to three, they've surrounded me, I'm asleep. And they pound my head and for eight to 10 hits, because there were five other boys right there during the, this whole scene, we have witness testimony, like minute to minute, you know?

And so one of the boys said, I think I heard eight to 10 hits. He told the detective and it sounded like, uh, it sounded like aluminum, an aluminum bat hitting rocks. And so that was me. Did you wake up through that? I did wake up, but I don't have any memory of it, so I didn't lose any consciousness during this experience, but I was knocked into shock, so I don't remember it.

Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. Seriously. Wow. So anyways, I'm on the sleeping bag, uh, kind of left for dead. One of the boys, uh, goes back to the other boys that were in the tent and said, you know, get out of here. Let's go hop in the truck. And they're all scared for the life, of course. So they do it. One boy not involved in the assault puts on his cowboy boots.

And runs like hell to the staff house. He saved my life. Wow. If it wasn't for him, if he would have thought more about his own safety than me, I would be in the great beyond. Wow. As you call it, Joey. The great beyond. So he runs, he gets help, but before they take off, this, this episode really haunted me in the first few years.

I was struggling with things. Um, he comes back from the truck just to kind of make sure, I don't know, I'm, uh, not dangerous for their plot. And I'm kind of sitting up in my sleeping bag. Yeah, bloodied and just just a wreck because the the assault immediately caused a skull fracture hand fracture a Subdural hematoma or a blood clot started forming on the brain and so I was out of it Well, he kneels down because I'm sitting on my bedroll just kind of dazed The other boy said and he he bends down kind of looks at my face looks my eyes And then takes a step back and just kicks me.

Bad scene. It's interesting. I've never gotten emotional about that scene. I have a little bit of a PhD, Joey, in disassociation. Fair enough. So, so that happens. And of course I'm, I'm out. They hop in the truck, they take off. They're caught later that night, right? By the Wyoming highway patrol. I'll talk very, very soon here about kind of their, what happened to them, but.

So I'm in the sleeping bag, about a half an hour later, uh, staff comes and gets help, uh, uh, rather. A half an hour later, staff comes, loads me up in a truck because they said the ambulance was not going to know where it is. Probably true. They take me by ambulance to a huge road in front of the ranch. An ambulance comes.

Then I'm airlifted to Billings, Montana. They call my mom. I'm airlifted to Billings, Montana, where there was a neurosurgeon in charge and just trying to gauge how I'm going to do. He calls my mom and dad and, uh, you know, they say, of course, talk to whatever you need to do. When he operates, he takes a three by three inch piece of skull out.

He puts it in the freezer to where it was going to be left for five months just to keep it safe as my, as my brain, right? Wow. As my brain swells down and as my brain tries to heal. And so they put me under a medical coma. I wake up five days later. Definitely brain injury. If, if for anyone who's experienced brain injury, they know, well, there's all sorts of stuff that can happen.

But one of the things is. You're, you really kind of start over at a young age. So just, I don't know if you're going to want to call it. Lack of focus, just, just, you're super, super young and on medicine. And so it was a time as a ramp up. I recovered for one year. I went home after two weeks and not in the hospital.

Wow. Um, I go home, started speech therapy, started physical therapy, had to walk on, uh, you know, the treadmills and take care of everything. And I was brain injured. So there's a little bit like. You're drunk. And so I'd say all sorts of inappropriate things, acute nurses and such, hopefully made him at least laugh.

And so recovered for a year and that, that was the physical part. And then the psychological part was much longer, but that's the basics. Uh, the boys were, they went to jail for a couple of years and uh, you know, got out and I know some of, some of them have had trouble, uh, who, you know, participate in the assault.

Those four boys, some of them continue to have trouble with the law. Uh, I'm hoping. A couple others are doing better. That's so good of you to say that. I know that must have taken a while for you to just want the best for them or maybe not. Maybe you're more heroic and virtuous than I am, but my goodness, man, that is, uh, that is intense.

Yeah. So many questions. Uh, I guess kind of fast forwarding a little bit more to what were the effects that followed you through that? You said there were a lot of psychological, I know the physical and sure mental and all that stuff. So just if you would outline it for us, how that affected you in the years that followed.

Yeah, well, you could think of it just as a, this is a way you should talk about it just as a tornado of problems because you had two things going on. You had, uh, the trauma, yes, right. How crazy that story was and how difficult and kind of the mystery of good and evil, which is very often accompanies trauma and that was a difficult thing.

But then on the other hand, I had the, the neuro. Psychological effects, or perhaps for the podcast, I should say, I had the physiological effects of the brain injury, which were very difficult. You're concretely irritability, sleep conditions, depression, kind of a OCD, kind of an obsessive mind about all sorts of things.

It felt like kind of my poor brain, if you will, is just like on fire. Whereas before it just kind of felt more healthy functioning and active, right? But now it's on fire. So any little thing, and for people who have experienced this, they know exactly what I'm talking about. So I had that. And then let's just throw in some disassociation depersonalization where you literally feel, it's kind of like you feel dizzy, but you're living in your daily life, but you, you feel like you're not real.

Or you feel like life's not real or you feel like every day is episodic. So I, I experienced about 10 years, my friend, just to, just to mention this in particular, I experienced 10, 10 years at least of, uh, cause it's been 18 years now experienced 18 years of deep, strong depersonalization. Of the gosh, I know I'm real, but it kind of doesn't even feel like that or the outside world.

And it kind of feels like you're like a, but 10, 000 miles above your head. It's very odd. Like an out of body experience. That's right. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

And that's just to mention the physiological. That's not the psychological, uh, well specifically that's not a whole lot of the psychological of trauma. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Forgiveness. Hope. Meaning all those things 100 percent and I know we're gonna hone in on that because there's so many ways we could take this conversation, but Oh on the OCD bet.

Yeah, that is such a Understated problem that a lot of people deal with I know I've went through my bouts of dealing with it and no people Who, uh, who deal with it. It's so debilitating. So that alone is enough. But one of the things that strikes me is your, from your story is that there's just so much, like you said, a tornado or an avalanche is another way to say it.

It's just like, it's just over overwhelming. So it's just amazing that you're standing here today. Like there's so many people I think would be tempted to just give up. Mm-hmm. . And so it's, it's beautiful that you're here and you've pushed through all that and yeah. You've become like an inspiration for so many people too.

So I wanna shift to forgiveness. Yes. Everyone listening here, you know, has been hurt in some way, and they might see some value in forgiveness. They might wanna forgive, but they struggle. They struggle to forgive for any number of reasons. Has forgiveness been difficult for you? Uh, yes and no. I think yes, in the sense that, you know, I, I knew Joey when I went out there for, to be a counselor at the ranch.

I knew they were. Delinquent youth, they, they were in a bad place in life and likely they were in a bad place of life because of decisions that at least to some degree were based on unjust things that happened to them to both hand, right? All of this is contextualized by both hand. If you're looking for an extreme or just a simple answer in any of this, uh, perhaps, you know, well, I don't want to talk to you.

Because reality, one famous Jesuit said, reality is like a strong red wine. It's not for children. There's a lot to it. So, it's nuanced. It's not the black and white that is so often made out to be, especially in like our media. Um, or anywhere in the world really. It's like, it's not, it's colorful. It's like detailed.

It's nuanced. So yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Absolutely. And so the forgiveness of the boys, believe it or not, was much easier than other aspects of forgiveness because I knew, you know, I knew they're in a bad place. I didn't know they were going to do that of course, but they simply wanted to be free.

They were used to a drug problem. Um, I think two of them, it came out, we're, we're pining for drugs at the time and In, in the mystery of what can only be called evil. This is what happens that when, you know, there's something in between me and my addictive, uh, object or whatever that might be. It's like, it's not personal, bro.

I have to take you out cause I need this. The object of my addiction, uh, the object of my vice, whatever that might be. And so I was just taken out. And so I did pray, but, and I think there's perhaps a grace in this, but I, um, I did, I did forgive them, completely forgive them. And I do still. The issue of forgiveness that I had, actually, I had more of an issue when it comes to forgiveness with people who were deeply faith based, like I was going out there Catholic.

And yet after this assault, especially people associated with the ranch who knew this could mean bad stuff legally, it's like they kind of took off their faith hat and put on their I want to protect my money hat and you talk about getting fired up for being an anger and resentment, forgiveness. Really struggled with big time and, and that, that took years that took years because I, I didn't know what to do with that here.

I was suffering so much, honestly, because of the brain injury and then the trauma and you know, I was a mess and yet I did start full time work less than a year after full time campus minister, full time teacher, prep school out in Southern California and for a brain injury victim like that to start full time work less than a year after.

And it was difficult when I thought about how the people at the ranch associated with the ranch responded to my situation, protecting their money more than Being there for me supporting me even even kind of as a person that was difficult I understand again both and I understand you're gonna have to protect your place or your your your job Legally, but also to support a person who's gone through something very difficult.

I think is important They didn't so that took a while. I'm glad to say that has been reconciled to but that that took a while Yeah, I bet and it makes sense It sounds like the kids would be even easier to forgive because you kind of had that expectation of them being rough around the edges and struggling in a lot of ways, coming from really rough backgrounds, having that dependence on substances and stuff like that.

Whereas with the, you know, people who are leading you or in management, whatever, you had somewhat of an expectation of like safety and caring for you. So it makes sense why that would be the case. I had expectations of a perhaps appropriate response from that situation and In my opinion, the way I received it, I was like, what the hell is going on here?

Interestingly, the person I struggled with most after that assault, and I have no problem sharing this, is God himself. You know, when he almost died, it was an 80 percent mortality rate. In today's day and age, people don't often in the, in the United States of America, in these days, they, they don't often experience physical pain as a result of being on mission.

I did. And so I couldn't relate to Jesuits or missionaries to the new world with the, with the native Americans who did not understand why they were there and they experienced martyrdom. Some of them, uh, as well as the old Jesuits in different countries. in Europe and in Asia. I couldn't relate to those guys.

I know they died because of their faith, but I was in a different situation. I was helping out on a ranch a yes, because of my faith. I wanted to help the boys, but also because I was in the U. S. And that doesn't happen. So I had a little conversation with God. One time I said, I'm going to have to know all of these things are real, what I believe in beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Right now I'm struggling so bad that I'm wondering, how can you let this happen? How can you let this happen? I had a master's in theology, so I kind of knew the theological answers, at least to a degree, but it was kind of the personal existential things of this is just not making sense. And also the witness of some of these people, the Catholics.

And because of my understanding of how they had responded to the situation, I was, I was pissed and I was thinking, well, this doesn't feel real. If they believe in what they believe, how are they responding this way? And it was more than just a couple of people. And so I said to God very directly, what's going on?

I'm going to have to search. I was reading in a journal just the other day written that same year of recovery. I said to God, this is dangerous because you're putting them in the dock. This time I was, I said, I will not believe if there is a very, doubt that started a long journey of how to deal with this.

And, and God, I remember showing my high schoolers in class for theology that scene out of Forrest Gump where Lieutenant Dan is up, you know, up on high in the ship and Forrest Gump is worried about him cause there's a huge storm. But Lieutenant Dan had some things to say to God. He said, you can't hurt me.

Something to the effect of you can't hurt me. What I do remember is you son of a. And I think that prayer looking back was just fine. I think that's a good prayer. In fact, and I shared with my high school students sometimes in life, that's the prayer you should pray if you really want to know God and his will.

It's certain times that's a prayer because it's so real. It's so like, this is what I'm going through and not meant to be like, you know, if you're a person of faith, like disrespectful to God, it's more like, Hey, I'm struggling here. Like this is what I'm actually going through. I could put on a mask and pretend I'm not.

That's right. It's a lot of people do. I can be like super pious and everything on the exterior looks good. But interiorly, I'm just like so broken and struggling. That's exactly right. And I had to hold two principles. I had to hold the principle of fake it until you make it. To a degree, that's like the most practical advice we can hear in life.

And that is not being fake. That is putting one foot in front of the other to live a relatively productive life in the midst of going through difficulty. And then the other thing is holding this tension of God and daily life. By no means a simple thing, especially with the psychological struggles I was having, cause it took about five years after that assault just to simmer down that brain to, to, I would call still a, a high octane level, but it didn't feel as much like it was on fire.

And everyone who has had a brain injury can relate to this. Or if you've been the family member of a brain injured person. Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. Yeah. I think of like Navy SEALs who have TBI or like go through the traumatic brain injury, like that stuff. It's like, it's real. It's man, it's a whole world that I don't understand fully, but through your experience, it's um, super instructive and wow, that's a, it's a heavy cross.

And one thought on that is there were many years, right? Cause this is a many year journey recovery. It will be a, just a journey of one of a difficult thing I experienced in my life for the rest of my life. But there were many years of acute years of difficulty. Many times I kind of wish that I could have at least been part of a kind of banner.

Brothers, uh, seals certainly can have made it as a seal. Me neither, uh, but Air Force. I could have done Air Force , uh, or a different branch because at least then I would've had some kind of fellowship with people who had gone through it, or professionals who were there for like this huge group. I just felt very alone.

Because, you know, I did solicit help for the brain in psychology and they were helpful, but I was still walking that path alone. Wow. That was hard. Yeah. That's so isolating and so hopeless at times, honestly. Yes. So tempted to despair. I'm sure I've been there. Oh yeah. About 5 PM every day after my first year of teaching, I'd think, okay, this is a suboptimal situation recovering from this injury.

So experiencing effects in this job is a lot to deal with. So, brother in law. Where's the scotch? Yeah. I hear you. And I'm living with them. Yeah. Yeah. It um, it makes sense that we cope with pain in the ways that we do, even if they're not healthy. Like it's not something we want to continue doing, but I totally like, I get why people do that.

I get why I've done that struggle with vices in the past where it's like, yep, they, they serve a purpose. They're not good for us, but they serve a purpose and hopefully we can break free and find a healthier alternative. But uh, but yeah, I totally get why. Why we go down that path. That's right. And I like how you said that, that it makes sense.

And I would say actually it's natural as a Thomas Aquinas man, uh, started a nonprofit called the Aquinas Forum. I'm, I'm obsessed with Thomas Aquinas because more than anyone, a Dominican friar from the 1200s. Help my how my life get into that later if you want, but yeah, he's all about faith and reason and he's gonna say that if someone is deeply struggling, they are consciously aware that they want to feel healthier, right?

But then the question becomes what good am I seeking for that health? And he makes a distinction between real and apparent goods. So in that situation, uh, a scotch, uh, hanging out with my brother in law, a scotch, it's effects on the brain. It tastes good. It calms you down. Uh, good times of the brother in law.

That seems like a great good. And perhaps one day it is. That's awesome. The meaning of, of alcohol Aquinas says is festivity. So that's good. That's a purpose. That's good. Fine. But as it relates to a brain injury, it's not a true good. It's not a real good at all. It's going to be an apparent good. Wow. And that's kind of the drama of the moral life is, am I choosing real goods or apparent goods?

And it took me a while to get back on the train of real goods. Rather than just kind of quick fixes are going to make me feel better. But for people who are going through addiction or battling vices, it's a healthy psychological principle. I believe to realize there's a reason you're doing this loneliness, brain injury, hurt.

depression, uh, stress from job, whatever the vice is, it's, it's almost always going to be an apparent good to help you. And so the realization is you're, you're not weird for wanting health and trying to find something or, or experiencing something that does help you makes you think it's helping. But the reality of it is we want to be moving more towards those real goods.

Yeah, and things that are going to help in the long run, not just in the short term, not be like a quick fix. And yeah, I know for me as a teenager, it was pornography. That was my drug of choice. And, uh, it did, it helped me in the moment. It almost sounds scandalous to say that, but it's true. It served a purpose, but it was making me miserable.

And so I knew I needed to get that out of my life and I did thankfully, but yeah, I recognize now looking back, it's like, yeah, it did. It served a purpose and I wish I didn't fall into that, but. But yeah, I was in a very rough spot. There's a reason why you did it. Loneliness, what have you, you, and then you experience this and it draws you in to another world.

It would be actually a false ecstasy. And then when this takes over you, there's a, like, this is what I experienced. You think, what kind of person am I with all these vices must be some kind of a monster. Yeah. Because. So to speak of us takes over you. It literally does, but it feels like almost like another power.

And like you said, say, well, this was just the wrong decision. It, an Irish priest wants to find sin to me as it seemed like a good idea at the time. You know, everyone can relate to that. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I love where you're pointing people. It's like there's a, maybe, maybe one way to say it is like there's a little bit of a monster inside of us.

that like acts out at times, but we're both the good and the bad in the sense that, you know, if we choose to do bad, like that doesn't fully define us. Like there's a reason that we're doing that. We should stop doing that and do the good. Um, but there's a reason we go in that direction. And if you shame yourself thinking like that, I just don't just do bad.

I am bad. Then the chance of you like coming back from that is like. Greatly diminished. But if you can see yourself as like, I'm both the vices and the virtues that I hold, I'm both. And I want to reduce the vices and increase the virtues. But if I want to pretend I'm just the virtues or say like I'm limited to just these vices, then I'm going to be debilitated and probably give up and just live a horrible life.

Yep. That's right. Let's go back to forgiveness. Let's do it. Someone say it's easier not to forget. It's too much hard work. It's too difficult. So the question really is to someone, especially in this position right now, like they're, they've been hurt. They kind of feel like they should forgive or they've heard they should forgive, but they're not really compelled to do that because it's so painful.

Why forgive? What are some of the benefits that you've experienced or you've thought of, or you've learned from Aquinas about forgiveness? Well, first of all, you know, there's a sense in which there's a, there's a great dignity that should be given to someone who's gone through something very, very difficult.

You know, Pope John Paul II, one of my heroes, he writes this about suffering, that suffering is uniquely your own. Right. Hopefully that does not turn us into narcissists who kind of use that as a, is like a victim mentality and have a, like a flag over your head of look at me. No one understands me.

Although that is a feeling. Yeah. But I would say to that person, okay, fair enough. That's what you feel like is going to be a lot of work and sounds like you're an intense chapter in your journey. But, but let me ask you this question. Is it worth it? Is it worth the work? If you have a thousand pound stone on your back that we call resentment and hurt and you have a bridge that you can walk over.

That is a bridge such that that thousand pound rock will take off you does that sound appealing to you? Yeah, compared to just walking around in this valley with a thousand pound brick because I think the effect of unforgiveness and and hurt resentment bitterness makes it worth it to pursue a kind of alleviation of that rock.

So it was very practical. You know, I, I like to be a reality guy more than anything in the world. Please God. Very practically speaking, if you're struggling with unforgiveness about something big, you have a huge rock in your shoulder. And it helps when someone comes up to you who has a 500 pound rock or a thousand, perhaps a 10, 000 pound rock.

And I've met a couple of those people. And at one point they had that rock in their shoulders, but they don't anymore. And here I was at the thousand pound rock. It said, can we have a chat? Wow. So very practically I would say, I love that. And I want to continue on that road for a second. Yep. Yeah, just playing out like that resentment, like we don't really often think about like, well, what happens if you don't forgive?

How is that holding you back in life? Because that might feel like the default position. And so aside from resentment, and feel free to go deeper into that, what else do you think happens if we don't forgive? How does that damage us? Because we kind of think of it as not forgiving damages the person who hurt me.

But I've heard it said that not forgiving someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah, I think that's right. And again, the person I needed to forgive was God. That sounds so presumptuous. It's crazy. But you know what? That was real for me. Yeah. I'm a bit of a black and white guy at times of, okay, either this faith or my faith is true all of it, uh, or perhaps none of it.

Either God is control of everything. Because he's God so presumably he would be or or it's not it's the opposite So, you know if he isn't there if he isn't control of if he is not there He is not in control of everything. And so it's a total shit show It's total chaos and that's a trauma feels like that's what unforgiveness Can feel like because of the hurt that you're that your experience has caused And so with forgiveness and unforgiveness, again, that, that's a question that is, that follows a terrible experience, a bad experience.

What I want to focus on, uh, in my life and, and back then is the experience itself. It's kind of like, how do I process this experience? And then that dictates is forgiveness reasonable, is it not? If, if I would propose if God is not real, if he's not in control of all of this, including moral laws. A bad experience may be unfortunate for you, you feel pain, but it's not violating some ultimate moral law and everything is absolute chaos and contradiction.

That's a suboptimal place to be in life, feeling that. It's a heavy place to be, but, um, but if on the other hand that there, there's been an experience of reality in your life that is causing such a pain and this gets your question now. It's, it's a, it's a thousand pound rock you're carrying. It's a disease.

It's, it's, it feels like another person. You're another person right now. And so who the hell cares about forgiveness right now? You're conscientious and I was conscientious of this is not good. This is not a good feeling to have. This is not a good place to be. It feels like life itself is a prison. And so forgiveness is a possibility to help out with that situation.

And it did me. It did me, I'll, I'll tell you why, because, because forgiveness is a way out of that to some degree. But, but I want, I want to stop there because that answers your question. Yeah. I would not say it's unforgiveness. That is the, the main issue. The main issue is going to be the experience you had, 100 percent and the pain that led to and forgiveness is, is a healthy way out.

I hear you. Not the only bit. Hey. Yeah. No, I hear you. And I think some people hear about forgiveness and they actually think that they need to jump to that prematurely. Yup. It's actually something that happens like later in the healing process, if we want to call it that. That's not something that happens right away.

And I want to get into like the steps of healing, which I know they're not totally linear, but But I think there are some good principles that we can crack into, but it's like the word you just said a few minutes ago, it's nuanced. It's not other levels. Yeah, totally. But I think it's actually harmful to try to forgive too soon.

And, uh, one of the steps that are the principles that I've heard about forgiveness is truly understanding like the cost, like what it's, the ways in which you were damaged, uh, not to remain a victim forever. I love that you brought up the victim mentality thing, because I think we all could be tempted to that, but to, uh, to truly move beyond it, to close that chapter in your life and to move on, not that it will never come up again, but that you're, you know, in a better, stronger spot, you're able to move forward.

So if someone came up to you now and said. John, there's someone who really harmed me. I want to forgive them. I just have no clue how to go about that. What would you say? What advice would you give them? It's interesting, you know, it's been 18 years I get a, get a little emotional about that question because it's a powerful one.

The first thing I'd say to that one is if a person came up to me and asked me that first step is Let's grab a cup of coffee. I want to hear about your story. I call it swapping stories. Because it's a light way in. If someone's gone through something very difficult, I don't like to get into solution mode, solutionize them.

I like to say, dude, let's get together. Let's swap some stories. Um, within the context of that story, I think it would unfold itself, the pain, the difficulty, the hurt, and then that how forgiveness might be one of their main hangups to prevent freedom because unforgiveness, it's a grasping. It's kind of a false grasping in my experience.

Kind of a false control. You think, well, I've been hurt and I'm not going to be hurt again by whatever you, the other person thinks and intends or what have you. It can be even a kind of paranoia. So within that context, I try to find out where, where they're at and then perhaps skipping ahead, perhaps not, but I would try to share from my own experience and then ultimately pointing to reality that.

As difficult as the things are that we can experience, life is greater than that. Life is much greater than that. And I think forgiveness is typically associated with zooming in on something that seems to be all encompassing. And yet, if we can take a step back, and this is the importance of story and sharing your story, feeling like someone else freaking cares.

You can see kind of a bigger Vista, if you will, a bigger landscape and that that's hope. So Unforgiveness, I think is very much tied to hope like screw this screw that it's resentment mode. It's bitterness mode Whereas if you see a greater landscape of okay, this is a difficult thing I have to deal with and and the resentment unforgiveness I have But now at least I can see a greater reality that, that, that life may offer me an experience of joy and happiness that I could not experience if I keep zoned in on this terrible thing.

Okay, that makes so much sense. And I love that idea too, that you allude to, of when people hurt you, you rightly feel that they owe you some sort of a debt. I think that's right. Yeah, and so Unforgiveness, I guess, would look like demanding that debt in some way and I want to be careful here. In some situations, it's very important that person does pay the debt.

It's important that those, in my opinion, that those kids went to prison. Yes. Like they needed to. But... Um, that's not up to you to impose that punishment. It's up to a third party law enforcement to impose that so that you're free then to release them of any further debt that they might owe you. And so that's the act of forgiveness, but it's not easy and it's not linear and it's messy.

And I, yeah, I've been there. There can be things that you really hold on tightly. You want to forgive, but it's like, I just can't let this go at this point in my life. And if I, if you're there listening right now, I would say that's okay. Yep. Like, don't, don't force it. Like, you can keep working towards that, but it's not something that maybe you're ready to do right now.

Maybe there's some initial, like John's advising you on, like, maybe there's some initial steps that you need to be taking, like going deeper into your story. Having someone who's there just listening to you, walking with you, which will then free you to get rid of that resentment, to forgive and free that person of that debt that they owe you.

Anything to add? I, I think that's right. I think there's a lot, there's a lot there. I think everything you said is true. I also think that the biggest kind of principle for me going through all this was one thing. What is really real? What the F is real here? Because if I know it's real, then I can understand.

My terrible experience, I can understand people's responses. I can understand even my own, uh, interior world kind of according to that. If things are real, if, if you will, if things are stable and then if I can kind of seek to live a life in communion with ultimately what's real rather than get caught up in what I call kind of the, um, the, the spider web.

Above my brain of trying to connect all the pieces. And I did that for five years, if you will. I got a master's degree in that. And, uh, I said that master's degree sucks because it does not work. You're just chasing everything up in the spider web compared to asking that more fundamental, admittedly abstract question.

What is really real real? Because I think there's an answer. And when you, when someone knows what's really real and they live according to that. They, they know or they think that there is a pattern of reality, there are signposts. Within which we can contextual our contextualize our lives and everything we do and there's at least a sense of Okay, things are okay at root, but one of the worst things about trauma I think the worst is that it changes your understanding of everything whereas you feel like the cosmos itself It's spinning whereas if you ask that question, what is really real you take A slow journey to your point of understanding that then everything becomes contextualized unforgiveness.

Um, resentment, spite, bitterness, even depression. You can say, okay, this is an issue. This is very difficult in my life, but it's not what is most really real. And so I at least have a little bit of time and there's a sense of like, okay, I'm okay for now. I have a journey, there's lots ahead, but I'm okay. You know, I'm at least two degrees safe because I know that reality is safe.

Well, that's, that was a worse for me. It felt like reality itself wasn't safe. Yeah. Can I imagine like watching your back constantly? That's right. Even to this day, uh, every week, once or twice a week, I will, for some reason, it's a gas stations when I'm. Filling up my car or at the, at the counter buying a, a soda, I will feel like, like if someone's behind me just automatically not, not conscientiously or uncon it's, it's unconscious, but I will feel like someone's going to come over me and hit me on the head and kind of, kind of the, the, the feeling of shutters, you know, in the body.

And that, I mean, that's been going on Joey for 18 years and. It's not about a control experience. I still in control to this point. I think, okay, well, there it is again. Just experienced like 0. 5 seconds of terror. My goodness, but it was 0. 5 seconds, you know, and it's not real. Yeah, right.

Yeah. I think lots of people can relate to that kind of an experience. Yeah, man, that's intense. And thank you for sharing so vulnerably throughout this whole interview. Um, you are very real and what are some maybe myths or misunderstandings about forgiveness that you've observed that are like really, really unhelpful that you want to warn people against?

Yeah. I would say the first one and the most annoying is perhaps the cheesy cheesy. Or cliche, Christian one, including all forms of Christian. I happen to be Catholic. And so, you know, I'm Christian. And so, so a response of like, if someone says, do you forgive them? Say, absolutely. With a certain kind of tone of voice and kind of whisper.

And you say, really, man, and I want to punch these people. Um, But really, I don't because you know what they're trying to do? They're trying to do the best they can on their own journey. Yeah. It's more about them than about you at that point. It is. And, um, you know, okay, that's how they're dealing with. But the issue is, again, you just mentioned that word real and it's not real, you know, the act of the will.

Of forgiving and I like to get into that kind of, we need to define forgiveness. Please. That office is not defined and it's terrible. Great. Because if you're trying to do something that you don't know what the hell it is, that's not good. Cause you won't do it. Cause you don't know what it is. How would you?

Yeah. It's like. Well, I need to get healthier, but I have no idea what healthy is. And so I'm obsessing all day long about being healthy, but I don't know what it is. So I have to lean on my man, Thomas Aquinas, and I'm going to paraphrase him. If there are any expert Thomas out there, please forgive me, uh, for paraphrasing this.

But I read at one point is lightning bolt of clarity for me that he said, forgiveness has to do with. Seeing the other person as more than the harm that they've inflicted and seeking to love the wholeness of who that person truly is, rather than that experience of them inflicting harm. So good. Right.

And that comes from, uh, 800 years ago because the real is really real. It doesn't change folks, people in ancient Greece. Now it's the same humanity. Human nature is constant, doesn't change. And so forgiveness has always been possible since the dawn of human history. And so step one is understanding, okay, this is what that is.

Now the next thing becomes, am I going to buy an act of the will alone is the important principle here. Am I going to lean into that? And it indeed is a lien. I am a big fan of forgiveness as a journey. It truly is. It is not a journey of emotions. In fact, essentially, emotions has nothing to do with it.

It's an act of the will. A good principle in that, I was just thinking, if you're waiting for your emotions, if you're waiting to feel like you want to forgive the person, in a sense, like, you're going to be waiting forever. That's right. You'll be waiting forever. Yeah, that, that doesn't work. And we are in a hyper emotional culture, hyper emotional.

Now I'm a passionate guy. I've got Irish, uh, got Irish blood. John Slattery O'Brien, fairly Irish name. And so boy, I got that. That is difficult blood to have when you're going through these experiences. But I would say silver lining of my entire experience has been I have learned the relationship between emotion and will, emotion and intellect and will or, or decision, right?

And the re, the relation of all that to happiness. And, and I've learned that you can be living an objectively happy day and kind of good day. An order day and still feel like a wreck and that, you know what, that's actually pretty cool because at least there's peace because peace is a coin that says is the tranquility of order.

Peace is not some emotion, essentially, it's a tranquility of order and we feel that, right? And so, as it relates to forgiveness, if we make this decision to forgive and to grow in that forgiveness, we are choosing to see that person as more than just their, their harm, their evil. And because that's true, we can have the experience of a little bit more order in our souls, in our minds and wills, according to what's really real, right?

Rather than, okay, I'm going to focus in on the harm, the inflicted, and it's going to be the only thing I see. And it's going to make me just, just a bitter, unpleasant person. Well, a, that's. That sucks. B, it's actually not accordance with reality as much as seeing the person for who they are as a whole. And so, that's where it begins.

If people don't know the definition... Like abstractly, we still know what it is kind of enough, uh, but it does help to get into what it is per se. So we begin that journey with the will. And then all of a sudden, you know, we do is I think, you know, is what I experienced. We become a little bit more integrated because we're seeing the whole, you know, think of just the most bad military person you've ever met or firefighter or doctor or cop.

They have seen everything. And you know what? You go up and talk to them about it like, man, what have you experienced that you've seen? And it's just been a nightmare. And they're like the chillest people on earth. They see reality more than more than they would if they're just zoned in on that one particular experience.

I want to be very clear. Again, there's a both hand, both hand. Yeah. It's not some simple answer that clears everything up. The good news is, is that. The real is really real and we can seek to live in accordance with that with reality and then we Become in time. It's journey of integration a better scenario a better kind of place to be on the journey I would say then sitting in your home obsessing about how much you hate this person.

Yeah. There's so much freedom there and kind of leaving that behind is, you know, when I share these things become a, because I'm a pretty philosophical guy. I am concerned that it's a little bit over the top abstract. What's, what's your sense of that right now? No, no, I think it's helpful and I think maybe being a little bit more general is helpful because then people can fill in the blanks, you know.

I think that's right. Uh, I like general. I think that's a good word because general again relates to that sense of reality, like reality is bigger than we make it. And the important thing is to gather principles for this and to, and. We're not alone and there are principles and reality is big and then there's hope.

Yeah. So you don't need to be a philosophy just nerd like I am to, to, to want to go on these things. They think the important thing is in some sense, even better is to just have a kind of on the ground understanding of these principles. So good, man, this has been so enlightening. I've learned a lot from you in this interview and I appreciate your time And just if people want to go deeper and learn more about Aquinas about what you offer.

Tell us about your nonprofit What do you guys actually offer and how does it benefit people? That's right So I have a nonprofit called the Aquinas forum started three and a half years ago, and it's very simple It's an independent nonprofit that helps people grow in faith and, uh, develop a Catholic worldview.

Uh, it's all about faith and reason, the relationship between faith and reason, which is constitute a lot of our chat here, because it's easy to live based on only faith, we call that fideism. Not paying enough attention to the here and the now the order of nature of reality or to live only off of reason which is going to be rationalism and Because there's a relatively because there's a clear limit to our reason that is not going to give nearly as much kind of hope and Greater view of the landscape of reality or even what it could be if you don't have Faith and so both of these alone, I would say Are not ideal.

Whereas if you integrate these things, that boy, that's a, that's a beautiful life. Again, my hero, Pope John Paul, the second said, faith and reason are like two wings upon which the human soul ascends to the mystery of God. You know, that's good. Yeah. And it's real. And so I started this nonprofit to help people grow on that.

I worked at a parish for a number of years. I felt like I learned some of the skills to do this. So, so to speak, I had a product to offer, started this nonprofit. We do different things locally conferences, books, studies, classes, but then I've also opened up this wing through my website. That we offer people free resources for small groups.

Nice. The how to guide for leaders or hosts, as well as the studies themselves written by some great authors. And it's, it's actually helping people to what, to grow on what's really real scripture, little bit of philosophy. Uh, we have Bible studies up now and it's good stuff and the hope is, well, the hope is hope in a sense, wherever you are on the journey, that the real is really real and that there is hope ahead.

There are good things ahead, and they're actually good things right now for your life. Love it. Yeah. And so whether someone's maybe been on some sort of spiritual journey for a while, they can join, or if someone's in the beginning of it and just like questioning things, they're welcome as well. Is that right?

That's right. So locally we have things where people can come and they can come from any faith background or none. Uh, because Thomas Aquinas, it's the Aquinas Forum, he is all about. He was all about one question and that's this what is God and so Through reason and faith he explored that and so we have lots of people that come that are just kind of seekers Yeah, you know, what is this?

Is there anything to this? And that's good. And in time, we're starting to open up other Aquinas forums throughout the country. We have two that are about to open and that's why I named it forum. It's a forum where people of any faith or the Catholic faith or no faith can come and explore the deeper questions of life.

And then also the small group, the small group initiative we have through the website that helps people do that in what I call their own corners of the world. So living room. Thank you. A tavern, whatever. Love it. Yeah. I love that. You're facilitating that and guiding it. That sounds amazing. Uh, how can people find you online?

Uh, Aquinasforum. org. Just go and check us out. You can find the email there, uh, the info email that will come to us or, uh, your, your, I can give my email now, my Aquinas Forum. Yeah. Are you open to people contacting you? Absolutely. No. I love to chat with people on the journey because, uh, candidly, that's what I was looking for for years.

Again, kind of a unique experience, faith experience I had on the ranch, trauma, but then also brain injury that that's, that's quite the intersection of things to go together. And I just wanted someone to chat with and swap stories. Eventually found one or two is great. So I'm, I love to do that now with, with other people.

And you know what I like to say, and I've found this is a great principle of freedom for other people as it has for me is this, uh, there's no red bow if, if we go through something terrible in this life. There, there, it's okay that there's not necessarily going to be a big red bow you put on top of it of like, this is why it happened and this is what it means in a holistic sense.

Trauma, it's intuitively bigger than that. That's why we have to ask the question, is there an afterlife? Because as Plato said, injustice will not be corrected in this world. I mean, Hitler killed how many millions of people, right? That's, that per se cannot be corrected in this world. But in the afterlife, through justice, and through how God deals with all of this, and including the victims of what they've gone through, we have great hope, for different reasons, that this can be reconciled.

And so, just want to help people with that. Try to offer some initiatives that can slowly, uh, including me meeting up with people. We won't talk about a red bow But we will talk about some principles. I think that can lead to greater freedom Happiness really? Yeah. No, that's so good. We all want to be happy and No, I love what you said and I love that you're so open and so generous with your time.

I appreciate you offering that. Yeah, I'm happy to. This has been a great treat. Yeah, and everyone listening right now, if you're just wrestling with those big questions or maybe you've never thought about those, um, I would say you are worth seeking answers to those questions. Like you deserve that. You deserve asking those big questions and finding answers and this is one resource that you can use.

to do that. So how can people contact you if they, yeah, so again, it's Aquinas forum. org is going to be my website. And then my personal email through the forum is John J J O H N at Aquinas forum. org. A Q U I N a S isn't Sam forum. org. Love to hear from you. Beautiful. And we'll throw that in the show notes.

So you guys can just copy and paste that as well. Want to give you the final word here. What final advice? Encouragement challenges would you offer to everyone listening, especially those listening right now who feel very stuck because of the trauma they've endured in their lives. Like what would you leave them with?

Keep moving forward. Keep moving forward. For 10 years of my life, I felt like such a wreck and I would consider man. You know, in a sense, what, what would be the greatest encouragement I could hear right now because there are so many questions and thoughts and feelings floating around that, you know what I wanted?

I wanted someone to say, John, uh, the most valiant thing you can do right now is keep keep moving forward. Put one foot in front of the other on this road to greater health. Because there are answers and I felt like that was the greatest thing I could do and wherever you are, whatever you're going through, if you are putting one foot in front of the other and you're moving forward, even if that's so slow.

You want to take bigger steps, but you can only take a small step. That's what you have control of, and that's where you can find heroism.

If you want more content, more guidance on the topic of forgiveness, I highly recommend episode 58 of the show. I spoke with an expert who did his PhD dissertation actually on forgiveness, lots of great advice in that episode. Again, that's episode 58, or you can just click on the link in the show notes.

Quick reminder that if you'd like to offer your advice on how to make the podcast even better, just go to restoredministry. com slash survey, answer the questions there and submit the form. Again, restoredministry. com slash survey, or just click on the link in the show notes. And if you do that by November 15th, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Honestly, once it's over, just take 30 seconds to share this episode. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#106: Healing Sexual Brokenness: A Resource for Men Struggling | Steven Motyl

When you’re struggling with unwanted sexual behavior, asking for help is terrifying. The struggle feels so shameful and admitting your weakness feels humiliating. As a result, most men stay stuck for years and years. 

Thankfully, there’s a way out. Asking for help from the right people is the key to overcoming shame, humiliation, and unwanted behavior. Today, a coach specializing in helping men break free from unwanted sexual behavior joins the show to discuss: 

• Is freedom even possible? 

• Why do men deserve that freedom?

• A valuable for you or men you know struggling

• Stories of transformation in the lives of the men he’s coached

• Advice and encouragement for any man struggling right now

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

[00:00:00] When you're struggling with unwanted sexual behavior, asking for help is terrifying. The struggle feels so shameful, and admitting your weakness feels so humiliating. And as a result, most men stay stuck for years and years. But thankfully, there's a way out. Asking for help from the right people is the key to overcoming shame, humiliation, and the unwanted behavior itself.

Today, a coach specializing in helping men break free from unwanted sexual behavior joins the show to discuss, is freedom even possible? Why do men deserve that freedom? We also talk about a valuable resource for you or the men you know who are struggling. He also shares some stories of transformation in the lives of the men that he's coached.

And then finally, he offers some advice and encouragement to any man struggling right now. So keep listening.[00:01:00]

Welcome to the Resort Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents'. Divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 106. This episode is also part seven of our series called Healing Sexual Brokenness.

On this show, you know that we feature stories and expert interviews about how to heal from the trauma of your parents divorce and broken family, or how to navigate the pain and the problems that stem from it. One of the biggest problems that often stems from your family's breakdown is unwanted sexual behavior like pornography, masturbation, hookup culture, paying for sex, infidelity, and so much more.

In fact, one expert found that almost 90 percent of those who struggle with sexual addiction come from a broken family. In this series, you'll get tactics and resources to overcome unwanted sexual behavior. So you can find freedom and a little trigger warning. This is obviously a mature topic. So we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around children.

And by the [00:02:00] way, if you want to view the other episodes in this series, just go to restored ministry, restored ministry, ministry, singular. com slash sexual brokenness, or just click on the link in the show notes again, brokenness, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Steve Motel. As a certified professional life coach and with fatherly encouragement, authentic compassion, and honest prayer, Steve helps his clients get beyond mere coping to real freedom.

He firmly believes that freedom coaching is the answer many have been looking for because he's seen it transform his clients and their marriages. His genuine love of personal freedom and sincere heart for others, combined with his tremendous personal experience of over 12 years mentoring single and married young adults, six plus years preparing thousands of couples for marriage, uh, 15 years as a youth minister, as well as his rich personal experience losing his dad at a young age, uh, 30 plus years of marriage and almost 30 years of parenting makes him a seasoned [00:03:00] coach to guide you through this incredible program to freedom that you long for.

Steve currently lives in the countryside of Southeast Pennsylvania with his wife, children, dog, barn cats, and chickens. And he wants to know if you're ready to claim your freedom. In this episode, we talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to the show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast.

So wherever you're at, I'm so glad you're here. And if you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip the God parts, you'd still benefit from this episode. But let's jump in. Here's my conversation with Steve.

Steve, so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here, Joey. Thanks so much, man. It's great to be with you. There are so many men listening right now who are struggling with sexual compulsion or addiction, just unwanted sexual behavior, basically like pornography use. And they want freedom. They really long for that.

But their compulsion, it feels so strong. It feels like it [00:04:00] controls them, like they'll never be able to overcome it. And they might even be tempted to think that Freedom isn't possible. And of course, there's women listening right now too, but I know it will gear the conversation a little bit more towards men, though this all applies to them as well.

So I'm just curious, like, is healing and freedom possible? Yes. Next, next question. No, um, yeah, absolutely. And it's a great question. Um, because you're absolutely right. I think a lot of times we get sort of stuck. In a, in a negative thought pattern or negative behavior pattern. And, and we sometimes wonder if I'm just going to be this way forever.

And if we start to think, am I just going to be this way forever, that could lead to some of that, that shame that makes me feel like, man, what's wrong with me? Like there must be something wrong with me. And then, and then we hide that because I, if there's something wrong with me. I can't share that with Joey, I can't share that with my wife or my friend or my pastor or my, my, my mom, because, you know, they're gonna think something less of me, they're gonna [00:05:00] think, you know, that, um, they might, they might love me less, they might value me less, whatever that might be, and so we hide that, we hide the compulsion, we hide the bad behavior.

That we have to we have to untwist all that and start to speak hope into all of that, right? Because of course it's possible and any anyone who falls into any sort of Unhealthy behavior and there's there's so many and you're right to when you're mentioning today Obviously is is is so is so prevalent right now anyone who falls into that there is always always hope We can get into whatever you want to get into here, but i'll just give you like a little a little uh, Spoiler alert here the I the work that I do Is, is exactly this.

I'm working one on one with men all day, every day who had some point in their life, thought that. They were always gonna have this issue. They were always gonna be struggling with this and by, by, by their hard work, by the grace of God, you know, by the love and support of other friends and family, they have, they have not just found freedom, [00:06:00] but they're living in freedom.

And so, yeah, it's absolutely possible. It's held out to all of us. And, um, and it's real and it's, it's, it's real. I love that. That's so hopeful. And especially the stories, I think when you hear someone who's been through it. Has been able to break free, find freedom and we'll, we'll definitely get to that.

Cause I, again, I think that's so hopeful, but aside from that feeling of maybe feeling stuck or hopeless, what are some other emotions that men face when they're struggling in this way? Yeah, well, I think, um, I think the, what they struggle with when they're, when they're in a compulsion is, is not that unlike what we men struggle with in general.

Like there's universal struggles and very personal, particular struggles in which the way they're played out. I mean, You know, in general, men tend to struggle with, you know, am I man enough? You know, am I, am I adequate enough? Am I going to measure up? Am I going to, to be successful? Whatever that might look like to them.

And I think when you start to get into a, a [00:07:00] negative pattern, like porn compulsion, That will, that fear puts like fuel on the fire of that. Like, okay, no, I'm never going to live up. I'm always going to be inadequate. I'm never going to give in enough because it neuters a lot in a lot of ways, your ability to be able to, to grow.

It certainly affects the way in which you see yourself in a negative light. You start to see yourself through the eyes of what you perceive to be your failures, your shortcomings, your weaknesses. And when you start to perceive yourself that way, you start to, you start to diminish your own self worth.

Now, you can't diminish your own self worth in reality because you are infinitely valuable to the one who has created you and nothing will ever change that. But we, we change the perception of our value. And then we transfer or project that onto him or onto others. And if I feel this way about myself, well, my wife must feel this way.

My boss must feel this way. You know, God must feel this way. And now it's [00:08:00] only a matter of time before the jig is up and I'm found out to be the fraud that I know that I really am. And now we've just bought into the biggest lie that, you know, that man has ever bought into. And I think on some level, I've never met a man who hasn't bought into that.

In some way, shape or form, but when you throw a compulsion in there again, it's, it's really fueled to that fire because you start to have, you think you now have evidence. Of why all those lies you believe about yourself actually are true. And so it's, it's to be able to break those and speak into that is, is a real privilege of the work that I get to do.

I bet. And I love that you take this deeper approach because I think there's this temptation to say on the surface to say, well, men are just always going to struggle with porn and lust in general, and that's just the way it is. And, you know, I think there is maybe some biological truth to that. Like we.

We do have, you know, often men usually have like a very strong sex drive and that's like a good and beautiful thing. But yeah, I agree that like there's deeper issues here that often aren't addressed in this attempt to just kind [00:09:00] of reduce this issue to just, well, you're just really, you know, we have lack self control, but there's often a lot below the surface, which I love.

Uh, what you're saying. I remember hearing a quote of like, you're never, um, maybe as bad as you think you are or as good as you think you are. You're somewhere in the middle. All true. All true. All true. Or one of my, I'm going to butcher it, but one of my favorite quotes of my, my, uh, you know, my favorite saying, poke, jump all the second.

I think he said it at a world youth day in Toronto, you're not the sum of your failures and weaknesses, but the, but the sum of the father's love for you. And there's more to the quote, I forget what it is, but that is just so profoundly true for all of us, regardless of what our faith is, regardless of what we believe, this reality is innate in us, that we are not the sum of our failures and our weaknesses.

We, we, we are, we are, we were created for greatness. We're destined for greatness. And we are great. We not, we might not be behaving great, but that doesn't mean we're no longer great. We're still great. We we've just, we've just covered up our greatness [00:10:00] with, with actions. We've numbed it for whether it's porn, alcohol, gambling, the excesses that we can do to numb, whatever pains that we're experiencing.

And then, and then that, and then we can forget in the numbness, we can forget how great we really are. So as we begin to get sober, whatever, whatever it is that you're numbing yourself with, we can start to again, breathe a little fresh air and start to see clearly that's why it's so important that when you are.

Again, in a negative thought or behavior pattern like a porn compulsion, you start to, you want to start to get an understanding of like, what's that rooted in? Like, where's that coming from? So, so my clients, most of them are Christian. Most of them are Catholic. And I'll tell them, you know, God's interested in far more than just you stopping to look at porn.

Like, I think, like he wants so much more than that. And in fact, and I have to tell them too, you know, there's nothing uniquely wrong with you. We're all falling, we're all broken, you know, because when we buy the live, [00:11:00] I'm uniquely, somehow there's something wrong with me. Everyone else is okay, it's just me.

We buy that lie. We forget the reality of the fact that, you know, I am seen by God exactly as He created me. Like, my actions, my behavior does not and cannot change the way He sees me. I mean, if it did, then that would make Him a conditional God, a conditional Father, a conditional Lover. And we know that's not true.

He's unconditional. But this is how we project that onto Him. So He wants to say, okay, look, and this is part of the work that we'll do. Let's start to get a sense of where maybe some of this all, you know, is coming from, like what, what took you there in the first place and what keeps you going back?

Because there's, there's, there likely would be an escape mechanism. It's a coping mechanism. It's a numbing mechanism. But if you can get underneath the hood. And start to figure out where it's coming from. Again, my brother, you won't just stop looking at [00:12:00] porn. You'll be, you'll be living in freedom. And that's a whole different thing.

And that's what God wants. Like he's not, he doesn't come to condemn. He's not here to condemn. He's here to set us free. You know, so this is all an invitation to, to freedom, ultimately. Love that. So good. And yeah. And in terms of coping mechanisms, I remember just with my own past struggle with pornography, when my parents separated and later got divorced, it just brought so much pain and so many problems into my life.

And my drug of choice was pornography. By and large, and so yeah, it served a purpose. It was effective in the short term, but of course was just horrible for me as a person. I was damaging, you know, my relationships was damaging my soul, like all these negative effects. But, but I think it is good. Like you said, acknowledge that it does serve somewhat of a purpose, even if it's horrible for us, but if you can figure out what the purpose is, then you can start, you can start getting that, that whatever that is, if it's a wound and efficiency, whatever it might be.

Thank you. You can actually get that heal instead [00:13:00] of just continuing to numb it with the counterfeit. Love that. Love that. Why do men deserve better? Well, first of all, we've been created for better. Absolutely been created for better. I mean, we have a, we have a real purpose to be a gift, to be a masculine gift to everyone we encounter.

And what does that mean? Well, it means, it means that, that whoever's in front of me, you know, I have, I have a mission to, to love and serve. And work for the good of that person in whatever in, in, in the context of the relationship and the context of the setting. So whether it's the barista handing me my coffee, you know, there's a, there's a smile.

There's a thank you. There's some kind word, you know, that's been offered whether it's holding the door open for somebody as I'm walking into into a store to the office. Order the shoulder to cry on the words of wisdom the sense that that that that we are willing and ready to protect that we have this reality of strength under control which is my favorite definition of of meekness like we want our [00:14:00] wives to know that even though in our children so even though we could we could bring physical harm to them we would never do that because we're in control of our emotions however because we have that physical ability we will fight to the death for them.

You know, and, and this is, and this is what we've been created for. Now, if, to get, to get theological for a second, we would, I would believe as, as, as a Catholic that my, that my role and your role, Joey, is to, you know, simply put to image, image the Father, God the Father, and, and to whomever we encounter.

Like, like that's, that's a daily prayer of mine. God, you know, let whoever encounters me today encounter you. That's what I want. I want to image the father from my wife, my kids, whoever, whoever's in front of me. That's the masculine gift. And that's why we deserve better because everything that we do that is unhealthy, it won't cancel that out.

But it will certainly neuter it to some, some [00:15:00] degree. And this is why the guys start feeling such self loathing, such self disgust because they know they're harming their masculinity. They're harming, they're neutering their masculine gift. They're hurting their wives or children because they're removing themselves.

They're taking what's good and true and beautiful about themselves that's meant to be a gift to their wives and children and, and, and diminishing that. And this is why, though, as they begin to become free, I tell them all, everything that's been affected negatively by your porneas, as we, as we begin to get you free, will now start to become positively impacted.

And so to that point, I will tell you one of the greatest things I've ever heard from any client's wife. love it. I get chills every time I think about this. Thank you. She said, I got my husband back, you know, and, and what I love about that is I don't have a new man. I don't have the man I always dreamt of.

I have the man I fell in love with. He was gone for a while. But he's back, the real man, real self, you know, be [00:16:00] who you are. Don't be somebody else. Be who you actually are. So good. I love that. And I love the point about we're needed. And if we don't use our strength in a way that serves and protects and gives life to others, then.

There's going to be a void in not only our lives, but in their lives too, and you maybe think of Viktor Frankl, the Austrian psychiatrist who wrote the great book, Man's Search for Meaning, who I talk about a lot on this podcast, but he ran a clinic in Vienna for suicidal patients, and what he would do is in that clinic, he Um, use therapy called logo therapy.

It was something that he invented where he would, um, help these patients find meaning in their life, which is basically another way of saying a deep purpose that was bigger than themselves to live for. And it said that he never lost a single patient, which is unreal. And so I think we all long for that deeper mission.

I think, you know, men and women alike are made for that to be a part of something bigger than themselves. But I think men in a special way, like we need that focus. We need that mission. We need something that we can fight for. Something that we can move [00:17:00] towards. And so, um, yeah, it, it works. It's effective.

And I love that you're helping men enjoy. I'm sorry for your, uh, you know, for the, the pain you went through with the divorce. Yeah. No. So how, how old were you, you said when your parents divorced? About 11, I was 17 when my dad died. And so, you know, similar things. So you, you and I can answer the question from a different way.

You know, why do men deserve more? Because we, we know, we know the void. The unfillable void that's been left and in our lives. And so, so that has caused me to say something kind of, kind of, you know, cheesy and whatnot. But, but I've said about my own fatherhood. I said, look, even if I'm just a mediocre average dad, you know, I, I know the impact that it would have if I was suddenly removed from, from the, from the lives of my kids.

And so that motivates me to, to, to strive to be that what they need me to be. You know because I I'm painfully aware and of course the work that I do now I'm even more painfully aware [00:18:00] just like the work you do of of how Much that father wound can really affect us now. He doesn't have to be gone He could be in the home and it could still be a tremendous father wound Um, but we all have one on some level there's family boards and stuff and you you do this work, too But um, but we know we know how you and I and others who have had their dad removed from the home one way or another Um, by choice or, or by death, um, we know, we know the void and we're like, we can, we can answer.

That's, that's why, that's why the man's so important. That's why that's important. Because all this, all this pain happens, you know, when he's not there. I love that. No, it's so true. And if that's the problem, I want to shift to the solution. So. What is freedom coaching and how does it work? Awesome question.

Thank you for asking. So, um, so freedom coaching is, uh, has been around for probably like 12, 13 years started by a Franciscan grad, Steve McCorney, um, great guy, and, uh, he, he himself [00:19:00] struggled for, for a good 10 years or so. Also deep, you know, deep father wounds his father. This is all public knowledge. It's in his book um, his dad tried to to commit suicide by uh, asphyxiating himself with the car in the garage and it wasn't successful and then he ended up in a nursing home and And so steve says I it's like I lost my father twice You know because I lost him that day because he was no longer the same man after that because of the brain damage and then lost him again for good the second time he died, but um, you know and and and again It's really important to know and we don't blame anybody for our stuff.

This is never about blame. I mean, I tell all my, my, my clients that we, you know, we, we, at some point in our adult life, we have to stop at some point and say, okay, look, I am, I'm going to choose to believe, even if it's not true, I'm going to choose to believe that my parents did the best they knew how to do.

And, and I'm going [00:20:00] to forgive them. I'm not going to blame them anymore for anything. That said, I'm going to be also very honest about what wounds or deficiencies I, I've experienced as a result of my family of origin, not so I can blame them anymore, but so that I can, I can get those things healed and move forward.

So Freedom Coaching, um, was born out of Steve's own struggles, um, and his own discovery of John Paul II's theology of the body and his own deep faith. Thank And so it led him on a journey. Like he, he, he didn't know how to get free either and he couldn't find anything. And so God inspired him to develop this, this program.

And, and it's, it's, it's, there's four stages to it. We, we do, um, we work through the men's background. We do talk through family boards and stuff. We do, we do give them an opportunity to process past events that have never been processed before, because when, when, when a trauma. Or a highly emotionally charged experience has happened in our past and we haven't [00:21:00] processed it that the neuroscience shows us that gets lodged in the right part of the brain where the feelings and emotions are and it locks out the left part of the brain, which is the logic.

And so, so every once in a while, if we, if we, if we don't, if we encounter something similar, Um, Later in life, you know, Joey experiences something when he's seven and, and, and he, and, and he's never processed that when he's 27, 57, 87, and he encounters something, a similar experience, he can respond the same way he did when he was seven and he has no idea why.

So this is part of why we'll revert right back to, you know, sort of like the, the, the child that got stuck. Or revert right back to some of those bad behaviors. So in a process, we give the left brain a chance to process and then calm those emotions down. We, we pray through those, we surrender all those, you know, to, to the Lord and we work and allow him into those memories.

God normally does not wipe a memory clean. That's not the business that he's in, [00:22:00] but the business that he is in is redemption. And so he'll redeem and heal and set free. The memories because all of us are dragging stuff through life that we're much of it. We're not even aware of and they're like chains around the ankles.

They just hold us back from becoming the greatness that we are. And so the more we can get released, the better I teach them the neuroscience. We teach them the neuroscience at freedom coaching. Oh, by the way, it's a one on one coaching experience. Just like we're having, you know, one on one conversation over over video.

Teach them the neuroscience because their brain was literally rewired by the pornies. And this is not magic, it's science. Our brains are wiring and rewiring themselves all the time. Sometimes we do it on purpose, and sometimes we don't. I like to ask my guys. So I'll ask you, Joey, do you play? Have you ever, have you ever played basketball?

I have not very good at basketball in particular, but if you were to do a layup, would it be a left handed or a right handed right handed? So Joey, you go to your coach one day and say, coach, I [00:23:00] want to learn how to do a left handed layup. And he's like, Joey, get your butt in the gym every day for two weeks.

I want you to do a hundred left handed layups. And then all of a sudden, one day Joey's in a game. He does a left handed layup without even thinking about it. So that muscle memory that's rewiring your brain, you learn a new language, new skillset, we're doing this all the time. So, but your brain and, and, and we didn't intend for this to happen.

We never gave our brain permission. No one looks at porn and says, Hey, let's rewire our brain. So it takes me there. But it happens. We build up neural pathways. The neural pathway says, gets trained and says, Hey, so, so Joey, you're, you're, um, you're stressed. Let's let's let's because the brain's designed to protect you.

So it wants to normally escape. It's a fight or flight mechanism. So let's get out of this uncomfortable situation and let's go self medicate by looking at porn and masturbating because through the use of that, you've trained your brain to know. It's going to get a really high hit of the good chemicals.[00:24:00]

We get, science has shown us, we get a, it's ridiculously high. It's way too much. It's unhealthy amount. Dopamine, norepinephrine, oxytocin, all this stuff. Very high hit when we look at porn and masturbate. So the brain gets trained. Give me more of that. Give me more. Give me more. Give me more. And that starts the cycle and the compulsion.

So. We have to start literally doing some brain exercises, not magic. It's science to retrain the brain when you get. So we start identifying what are, what are your triggers? Is it when you're stressed? Is it when you're lonely board? What, what typically triggers you into that flight into the porn? And then we start looking for healthy replacements.

It takes a little while, a few weeks, maybe longer, but over time, the brain starts to retrain itself to go. Oh, I can get the good chemicals I need from going for a bike ride, listening to a podcast, checking in with Mike, whatever, you know, instead of, instead of going to the porn. So that's, that's kind of what we do.

So then we teach them a lot of, you know, a [00:25:00] lot of prayer. We teach them a lot of other activities and things, but it's one on one. So we're checking in. I serve as a bit of an accountability partner, you know, but more, more just entering in. And journey with them as far as that road will take us until they reach their ultimate goal of freedom when they're married.

Of course, by extension, this beautifully ends up having an impact on on their marriages too. So I get to watch them transform and by extension their marriages. So it's it's really incredible. So it's 1 on 1 weekly every other week, whatever. We don't usually, but, um, It's it's it's somewhat flexible on that, but we like to keep the momentum going.

So every week or every other week, that makes sense. And how long is typical? I know it probably varies quite a bit, but how long is typical for a man to like be in a program like that before he could then say, I'm able to stand on my two feet. Of course, I'm You know, maybe he builds a local community with other men that can kind of help him or something like that.

But how long would someone typically be in a program like that? That's the best question that I never know how to answer. Um, yeah, no, I just, just history. I can tell you it, [00:26:00] yes, it's so lame to say it depends, but it depends. And here's why, because. One guy might have so much stuff in his background. He might have so much stuff that he wants to talk through.

And it could take months just to get through that. I've had guys who didn't have a whole lot and we got through it in a couple of sessions. You know, some guys, some guys need to talk. Some guys, I'm the only person they talk to all week. It's a slight exaggeration, but it comes pretty close for some of these guys.

So they just, they need to talk and I'm there to serve them and love them as best that I can. So I keep them on track, but I gotta give them that space. Some guys just wanna get right down to, okay, what do we got today, Steve? Let's go. You know, it just depends. So it, some guys will show up and their marriage is such a wreck that, that they're, they're, they, they're not in no place to talk about our work.

They just wanna talk about their marriage. So that, that's why it, it, it sounds lame. But it's very legitimate to say. It depends. But I will give [00:27:00] you, I will give you on average six months to a year. And again, also depends how frequent you meet as well and how, how serious you are about the homework and how serious you are about working at this.

Actually, do you mind, I, I, you said, you said something in your, in your opening that I wanted, I wanted to come back to and it's appropriate. Please do that. You, you said the, the phrase, um, you know, want to quit something like that. This is really critically important because when you get into a compulsive pattern, a compulsive behavior, sometimes you don't really want to quit and sometimes you want to quit a little bit, but not a lot of it.

You know, we get comfortable with our vices. We are comfortable with our bad behavior. And, and, and so I have to challenge it occasionally from time to time. Okay. So like on a scale of one to 10, Hmm. How bad do you really want to quit? Maybe it's a six. Okay, start good Acknowledge it, you know and and maybe ask for the grace if you're a praying man ask for the grace to get to a seven you know because We we want to hold on these things.

So what we tell them is [00:28:00] Clearly, there's so much more going on that we can't just simply quit with an act of the will. Like we can't, very few people can say, I just quit and really quit cold turkey. But likewise, and just as important, you can't quit without your will. Like, you know, no one's going to take it away from you, including God.

God is not going to take it from you. You have, you have to want it, you have to ask for it and you want to be able to surrender. So sometimes. Motivation is important as well. How bad we really want that. So, um, I hope that answers the question on how long. It's a tough one to answer because there's a lot of a lot of variables, but that's, that's the general sort of scope of things.

Yeah, no, that's a good range. In terms of like an investment of, of time, like that is a great investment. I mean, if this usually I bet for men who are talking with you, it's been a struggle for years and years and years before they're even willing. To look or ask for help. Yes. And so it's like so much lost time, like probably hundreds of hours of lost time and [00:29:00] years of their life that has just been wasted, you know, on this vice.

And then looking forward, it's like, okay, you don't have to do this coaching. You don't have to do anything like this. You don't have to even get porn out of your life. If you want to continue, do you have free will? You can choose that. But. You know, I'm not being facetious here. I know like there's this, like you said, this maddening like dimension of our struggles in this area where it's like we find comfort in the misery.

It's really fascinating. But you know, again, like looking at it in terms of like, okay, are you how serious are you about getting this out of your life? Thinking to the future? It's like, is a six months or a year or maybe even longer in this program? Yeah. Worth transforming your life entirely and bringing it to a point where you, you know, don't struggle.

I mean, maybe it's a temptation always, but you don't struggle seriously with this. And maybe the temptation becomes almost like non threatening, um, for the next 50 years of your life, 30 years of your life. It's like that is an incredible investment. It's like almost in the business world. If [00:30:00] you, you know, were to ask someone, Hey, if I gave you this training that lasted six months or a year, What And you can go on and you can save, you know, a hundred hours a year, or, you know, a thousand hours a year.

And then you can make, you know, an extra hundred thousand dollars in a year, every year for the rest of your life. I mean, you would jump right on it when you think about it. Yeah, exactly. And I think in a similar way, It, it, all this is connected. Like you could live such a better life. You could probably excel even more in your career, have better relationships, you know, just feel more emotional peace.

Like if you were to invest in something like that, so I totally get the resistance that we all feel there and doing a program like this, but I just wanted to touch on that because I think it is a very real problem that people face when they're thinking like, maybe I'll do it, maybe I won't know. It's not the time.

That's a lot of effort. So yeah, any thoughts on that? Beautifully said. Beautifully said. I, you know, the, the, yeah, the last thing you said about, um, having positive impacts on other areas of your life. Yeah. You know, I think, you know, I, I like to quote the, the one scripture when the sun sets you free, you're free indeed.

[00:31:00] What happens is when you, when you're enslaved in any particular area of your life, it's affecting all areas of your life. So it only stands to reason that when that area gets freed up, it's going to have a positive impact. So absolutely. Cause I, I'm, I'm watching. Like a lot of, a lot of, um, a lot of men who are, who will, you know, when they first sign on, we go through this whole intake form and, and, and I hear, I see over and over, over again, struggle with, um, with confidence, you know, struggle with social anxiety, like those are two things right there that I see quick improvement on as, as, as people get free and again, the science makes sense because you've been, you're forming yourself You're forming your brain, your vision in a fantasy world.

So then when you come out of that fantasy world, No wonder it's so awkward to connect with reality. You're cause you're, you're so formed in the fantasy world. So it affects all that. So you get free from all that. It starts to free up your confidence and your self esteem and your ability to communicate with people in real life.

And that's a big deal. I mean, [00:32:00] especially like a lot of the guys who are younger and they, they'd like to date. They like to find somebody. They just, they're just, they're just so, they just feel so inept. They feel so emasculated by all of this stuff, you know, because to some degree they are, but that's not who they are.

So as they become free, they sort of discover who they really are, and that really boosts their confidence. So yeah, definitely see a lot of that. Now again, especially, especially if you are, you know, if, if a guy is, is someone who, um, is Catholic. And he wants to understand the fullness of his faith and not just be free from pornography, but also grow in the fullness of what it means to be a Catholic Christian man, then it's even a better investment because that's so much of what we do here because we have to not just again, we say it's not just freedom from its freedom for so we're getting free.

From the porn so we can be free for a life that god's called us to like again John paul ii says freedom doesn't exist for freedom's sake it exists for for love. That's our mission So love in the masculine way in a masculine [00:33:00] gift. And so yeah, totally a great investment and I completely see Their whole lives transform not it's not like their life is the same They're not looking at porn anymore.

Now that's just the tip of the iceberg of what the positive effects here. Um, now, of course, if anybody's concerned, there are no contracts, you know, people drop guys, drop out. I've had guys drop out for a while and then come back, you know, so there's no stress, there's no pressure. I'm here for you. We're here for you.

The organization is here for you, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever your needs are. So, um, so there's no. There's no sense of like, Oh my gosh, I'm signing up for, for six months to a year. No, you're taking it one step at a time. In fact, that's a big thing too. We, we start teaching them what it means to live one day at a time, you know, really in the present moment and not worry about, about tomorrow.

Just know you're going someplace good. God's bringing you someplace good. So good. And I love that, that idea of like a rising tide raises all ships. So if you kind of. Work on one area of your life, it [00:34:00] will bring up other areas of your life too. And on that note, I'm just curious if you have any like quick tip, like what's maybe one tip that you'd offer to men listening right now that are struggling?

And again, they can use it today. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is breathe, you know, breathe. Go easy on yourself. First of all, breathing is, is spiritual, but also very scientific. When we, when we feel tempted and you said something before, you may not live a temptation to free life.

No one, of course, is guaranteed that that's not what this is about. What I want to teach you though, is that is to, is to what it means to be in the world, but not of it. That means you can navigate whatever the world throws out at you. You know, if you really can't have your smartphone, if you really can't have Netflix, fine, get rid of it.

But I want to take you beyond that because in my, in my definition, that's not the fullness of freedom yet. Those are still coping mechanisms and they serve a place and a purpose for a time. But I want to get you to a place where you can have full access to anything and everything. [00:35:00] Because you're totally free to know how to navigate it.

You can go right to the good stuff on Netflix or right to the good stuff on your phone and avoid everything you shouldn't. And if something comes at you that you weren't expecting, you know, how to just flick it away. It's it, you know, it's not going to haunt you. It's not going to get his hooks in you anymore because you're going to become not just free, but inoculated from all of this stuff.

So again, I don't want you just to be free. I want you to live in freedom. And so. So sometimes when we get caught by the temptation, it literally will catch, take our breath away. And once our breath is taken away, our brain start, our eyes are trapped. And our brain starts to wander, so breathe, literally breathe that because the science shows us that that when we, when something shocking hits us, or there's a break between the left and the right hemispheres of our brain, but breathing reintegrates them.

So, it logic comes back. It's a load. See, what are you doing? Don't come on, man. You know, so breathe. I like to say, breathe, break your environment. So again, if you're [00:36:00] on the computer and something shows up, breathe, get up, go do something else, but go do something else. It's important that you, cause your brain in that moment is saying to you.

I need a chemical hit. So give it one, but make sure you, but go for a walk, go for a bike ride, you know, go do something that's healthy. Go do 20 pushups, something that you enjoy doing, where you'll get, you're going to get the chemicals, but it's going to be healthy. So breathe, break the environment, go do something else.

And please, my brothers and sisters, go easy on yourself. This is a journey. You know, we, you are not, you're not going to ever, the most dangerous thing a Christian can say. There are no trophies, no, no gold stars or ribbons were always going to be in the process of becoming perfected, you know, because whatever it might be, we might overcome this.

Then there's going to be something else. We're going to want to work on. So we're always in the process of becoming perfected. And so, so just enjoy the journey. [00:37:00] Don't put that stress on yourself to feel like I got to get this figured out now. Why haven't, why am I not further along than I thought I would be by now?

Why am I still dealing with this? That's, that's the way this is, you know, and that's the journey. So. Get it in the light, you know, if you have it, that's another thing too, is get it in the light. Talk to somebody, you know, have, find somebody that you feel will receive you in a safe way and be vulnerable about this.

There's a 99 percent chance that he will say the two most powerful words in the English language. Yeah, me too, me too. And, and then you will feel, oh my goodness, I'm not the only one. Okay. And then, and then if you really, and if you want, you go, you know, if you're, if you're Catholic, go to confession, reach out to your pastor, reach out to us, you know, um, but, uh, but if you're alone in that moment, breathe, break the environment and go do something else.

Thanks so much. And Steve, you clearly have a heart for. These men, and I'm curious, it's kind of two questions, which you touched on a little bit before, but let's go deeper. Why do you care [00:38:00] one, about these men so much? And two, uh, what transformations have you seen in the men that you've coached? Yeah, beautiful question.

Um, so it's, it's, um, it's difficult to answer the first question. I, I'm not 100 percent sure. I feel like the Lord over the many years of just living, The Lord has shaped my heart, um, to just have the heart of the father or a father. I mean, I literally just love being dad. I love, I love speaking truth and love and mercy and compassion and empathy into, into people that I meet.

Um, you know, it's, um, it's just, I think something the Lord has formed me in over the decades. I certainly, again, with the wounds of my own. You know father fatherlessness and other things. I certainly know what it's like to to to give my my my emotions over Surrender that and lose control. I certainly know what that feels like to be [00:39:00] enslaved But I also but I also have tasted so much the beauty Of what it means to to live a free life or a freer life because we're always growing in that right?

and so The opportunity to, to speak this into men, to, to, to, to remind them of their greatness, as you mentioned before, to, to encourage them, you know, we call ourselves a coach, but I more feel like a cheerleader most of the time, you know, because I like, I just want to, I want to encourage, you know, and call men on and to remind them of who they are.

So, um, and of course, the more I do this, the more I see. The fruits and that just encourages me even more to keep going with this. It also it's you know, it's it's you know I've gotten the point now where i'll just start talking about porn at a dinner party or a you know, whatever I mean, you know, obviously i'm being a little facetious But but but i'm not shy about it anymore because I know this is like, you know This is this is not something in the back alleys anymore.

This is in the pews. [00:40:00] This is in our families. It's affecting Us or somebody we know, you know, the listener or someone they know for sure. Everyone's been exposed. I have never met a person in my life who's not been exposed or that they weren't exposed until they were an adult with a fully formed brain.

So you get exposed. Your brain's not fully formed yet. You don't know how to process it. You don't know what to do with it, but you're curious. It's intriguing. It's intoxicating. You go back to it again and again, before you know it, your brain's been wired. The guys have to know that they are complicit on some level for continuing to go there, but on another real level, much of this is not really their fault.

You know, there's a lot of factors at play here. So I want, I also like, I want guys to take it seriously. But stop beating yourself up. Go easy on yourself. As far as the transformation, it's been just incredible. I have guys who, who, um, who have a real success real quick. Others who [00:41:00] takes longer, but when it starts to click in and you can see that the neural pathways in their brain have actually started to, to rebuild.

Um, and because now the struggle is getting easier, you know, we're going to, they're going to be in this battle, but the battle is not going to have to be as hard as it seems right now, because until your brain's rewired, your brain is literally working against you. It's trying to take you someplace. You don't really want to be going.

So you got to get your brain working for you. And so once we see that, then I see the beautiful transformation. Then, then to your earlier point, the transformation happens because it starts to open up other areas of their life. I started hearing about, you know, new and. Unexpected, beautiful connections with their wife or with their children with her fiance or girlfriend or coworker, you know, beautiful encounters.

I start to hear experiences they're having where, where, where they would have been tempted to lust in the past. Now they were just loving that person, you know, beautiful stories about how they [00:42:00] entered into intercessory prayer for a woman they saw at the airport or whatever it might have been before they would have just been gawking.

You know, and, and they, and, and that self realization of like, they're starting to realize what you said before. Wow. I, I, I'm made for more than what I thought I was, you know, and they start to taste that and the more you taste it, the more you want that. So you put the counterfeit behind you and you start going after the real thing.

And that's where transformation really happens. Beautiful. And I know I imagine like relationships and marriages have been saved. Divorces have been avoided. You know, like you said before, anxiety and depression had been largely cured money probably has been saved, you know, careers perhaps have been saved, like their bodies transformed.

I'm sure because of that kind of linchpin effect where they get control of this area of their lives and then they get control of their other, the other areas of life too. So I imagine there's so much there and thanks for mentioning that. And I wanted to touch on one thing you said earlier, and you just mentioned again about how, yeah, we need to take ownership and there is this balance between.[00:43:00]

You know, kind of not going hard on ourselves and still like taking ownership and, and in terms of our parents too, I just want to touch on that because, you know, the people listening right now are coming from really broken families, divorce, separation, often infidelity, like a lot of messy stuff. So the way I usually talk about it is like, there's a purpose for grieving all of that.

And I know you would agree with us. There's a purpose for grieving all that we need to grieve that loss. That's a serious thing. It's something that shouldn't be taken lightly. Um, but you're right. At some point, we have to ask the question, like you said, now what? Now what? Like, what am I going to do with this?

How am I going to move forward in life? How am I going to not allow this to have the last word, to not control me? And so the way I usually talk about it is that, you know, the grieving can't last forever. Uh, it needs to be there. It can't last forever. And we have to ask that question now. And so even if the problem wasn't our, you know, our cause, like we didn't cause it.

We can take ownership of the solution, right? And that's what I hear you talking about. So I love. And so, so I, and then in that solution, I think it is wise to like, give yourself grace. When you fall so you can get back [00:44:00] up. So you're not discouraged because discouragement will keep you stuck. Um, but at the same time, you know, take ownership and call yourself onto something greater because you can, you can get over this, you can move beyond.

It doesn't have to be your life story. Amen. Amen. And I think what you're speaking about beautifully is the difference between, between, um, between blaming and reasons. Like, you know, we, we can't blame anyone for our bad behavior. We can't blame anyone for, you know, I, I, I joke. And again, as a Catholic, obviously we go to.

I joke and I tell my guys, okay, so this is the litmus test. Go, go to confession and say, Hey, father, you know, I, I, I, I sinned. I was in, I was in church and I was lusting after this woman. It wasn't my fault. You should have seen the way she was dressed, you know, and, and, and I'm like, father would get a good chuckle just like you're doing now.

And he'd say, my son, that's, that's, I understand, but that's not a good confession because. You can't blame another person for your sin. You know, you can't blame another person. So even though we think we want to blame whoever, our wife, our [00:45:00] parents, we can't blame. But that said, there are reasons. There might be reasons why I slipped into X, Y, or Z.

So we want, we want to look at the reasons. So we, we don't let ourselves off the hook, but we also don't want to beat ourselves up. So we look at the reasons and we start to see, okay, so, um, what, what are the reasons again, that led us to that. And keep us there, you know, and, and, and is that, is that reason?

What is that reason? Is it a wound? A deficiency? Is it real? Is it perceived? What is it? Let's address it. Let's get it in the light. Let's get it healed. So you can be, you can be set free from that. And if it's, if it's a, if it's a, if it's a different sort of thing, like I work with, um, let's say I work with guys who, and, and, and these, these guys, God bless them really, really have a tough, tough go at this.

They, they, they live alone. And they work from home. So, so isolation is always knocking at their door. This is, they're, they're always on at the risk of slipping into isolation. And so we have to work hard. [00:46:00] Okay, so, so you're, it's, it's, it's, so we'll talk about, so your current reason might be loneliness, for example.

So we got to find, we got to find, Ways to adjust. We're not making excuses. We're not saying, oh, if I could just get married, if I could just find a job where it was, no, those are excuses. The reasons I'm going is because I'm feeling the ache of loneliness. Okay. Well, let's address the reason now, you know, let's not go find you a wife.

That's not going to solve this problem. You know, let's not go change your job. That's not going to probably solve the problem. That's not going to get to the root of it because the root for you, you discover now. You know, not, not you personally, but, but that client is, is the loneliest. So let's get to that now and see how we can start addressing that one.

And of course we invite, we invite the Lord into that and we start to find ways in which we can actually address the root cause of it. The real reason. Appreciate that. And if there's a man listening right now who's thinking, you know, I might not feel like doing this, but I know I need this. What's the next step that they could take?

How do they sign up and start? Yeah, no. And that's a great [00:47:00] question, because I want everybody to know that, you know, the first session All of this and so much more gets explained and we start doing work in the first session, but there's no obligation to do a session to, you know what I mean? Um, and or that, but, but if you go to freedom dash coaching dot net, you can read all about it.

You can see me. You can peruse the other coaches. You can fill out the application if you want to and we're, we're doing, um, you know, freedom coaching is, is, um, is offering actually the first session for free to anyone who mentions, uh, mentions you, you know, when they, when they sign on. So there's no obligation all then for any of your listeners, so they can fill it or they can mention us, they can pick a coach and.

And you're welcome. You're welcome. One word about the coaches. The whole team is fabulous. You can, you can select a coach. We encourage selecting two coaches because your first we will do our absolute best to assign your first choice, but it's not always possible. It's a [00:48:00] prayerful decision. It might not.

We might not feel it's even the right match. Um, but we'll, we'll, we'll do our best to match with their first and if not, you know, your second. So, but you're welcome to select a coach and if you don't select a coach, then we'll just, we'll just prayerfully, you know, match, match you with one. But first session, first session is free and no obligation for, you know, a second one.

And I really appreciate you offering that to our listeners, and I know it'll be a great value. And so you really have nothing to lose. You know, maybe you might be embarrassed or shy or something, but at some point, this needs to come into the light. And if you want to heal it and overcome it, so I would just encourage you take that step.

And so, in addition to the website, is there any other places online that people can find you or contact you? No, that would be the place. Thank you for asking. But I want to respond to something you just said. Embarrassed, all that. Listen. There is no, there is no embarrassment here. There is no, there is no condemnation.

No judgment. Um, this is, this is a place to find, you know, a [00:49:00] brother, whether it's me or the coach to understands the issue and, and, and just cares about you and your freedom. And the longer we stay embarrassed or ashamed. The longer it's going to take to get to our freedom, because we, we have to make that step.

We have to want it just enough to at least, okay, I'm going to take one step and see what happens. So, um, you know, if you, if you're on the fence, come on, check it out. And, uh, and again, like you said, there's really nothing to lose for that one hour of your time, because, uh, you're not going to have to pay for the first session, but you'll walk away from the first session with, with already with some tools, you know, to, to get you going.

Love that. And comfort is a slow death. So avoid that. Often discomfort is a sign that you're growing and that's what we all want. So Steve, thank you so much for being here. Really honored by you and the work that you do. I'm definitely supportive of it. And so I hope many people come to you through this episode and you can help them find freedom.

I want to give you the final word though. What final advice or encouragement do [00:50:00] you the men who are struggling with unwanted sexual behavior? Yeah. You're not alone. You are not. Alone if you if you if you're sitting in a pew at church If you're sitting at the office, I you know, I I'm you are not alone This this is every man is fighting this on somewhat or has fought it on some level.

You're not alone So all that's needed is a little bit of honesty and humility the honest to say, okay I have this struggle Um, and I no longer want it and the humility to say I could use a little bit of help And you will be on your way. You'll be on your way.

Here's my challenge If you're struggling with unwanted sexual behavior. Take a risk and schedule the first session for free. Again, make sure to add to the form that you heard Steve on the restored podcast. So you can get that first session for free. And if you're tempted to deal with this on your own, I get that, but consider this.

It [00:51:00] might be possible for you to overcome unwanted sexual behavior on your own, but it's extremely unlikely. Like, if you were making a bet, it would be a stupid bet to bet on overcoming this on your own. Like, in my opinion, we're talking about, like, a 1 5 percent chance. So, we're talking 95 99 percent likely that you'll just keep struggling.

And not because you don't mean well, it's just because it's not effective to do it on your own. So, it's truly an option. You could keep trying on your own and continue struggling and perhaps struggle for the next 15 years. And I don't say that facetiously, I say it with a lot of love. Or, you can stick out your neck, feel embarrassed about asking for help, but then actually get porn or other unwanted sexual behaviors out of your life for good.

And like Steve said, on average they see that it takes about 6 to 12 months, it varies a little bit, but maybe 6 to 12 months, uh, in this program. And so the question is this. Is that huge potential win that could change your life? Like imagine all the ways it can change your life, not just this [00:52:00] area of your life, but the spillover effect it would have in other areas is that huge potential win worth.

a little embarrassment. Only you can answer that. But if you'd like to take that next step and act in spite of your fear, right? Do it scared. Just click on the link in the show notes. If you'd like to fill out the application and then schedule an appointment with the freedom coaches and perhaps you'll get Steve as a coach as well.

So go ahead. My challenge for you is to do that today. Another resource that I wanted to mention is that so often at the root of sexual compulsion or brokenness is trauma, but before you can heal it, you have to understand it. Our free mini course on trauma titled why you feel broken consists of five short videos by a trauma therapist that answers the questions.

What is trauma? What impact does it have on your body? How does it affect your emotions? What does it do to your mind and how does it impact your relationships again? Once you understand what trauma is and how it's affecting you today Then you can begin to heal [00:53:00] and build the life that you long for again to get the free course It's really easy.

Just go to restored ministry Dot com slash broken just sign up for free and then you can begin watching the course again. That's restored ministry Dot com slash broken or just click on the link in the show notes That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them.

Seriously, take 30 seconds now or less to just message them that, Hey, I heard this episode. Thought it might resonate with you given what you've been through and just wanted to share. That's it. That's all I need to do. And in closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are. And change the ending.[00:54:00]

#105: Healing Sexual Brokenness: A Resource for Women Struggling | Rachael Killackey

If you’re a woman that struggles with unwanted sexual behavior, you are not alone. The myth of porn, or even lust, being a male problem is just that - a myth. More importantly, healing and freedom are within reach for you. 

In this episode, brave author and speaker Rachael Killackey shares her struggles with unwanted sexual behavior and a valuable resource for women struggling, plus:

• The emotions that sexual struggles brought into her life

• How she found freedom and helps other women now, too

• How you should respond if you have a relapse

Buy Rachael’s Book: Love in Recovery: One Woman's Story of Breaking Free from Shame and Healing from Pornography Addiction

Join a Magdala group

Listen to the Magdala Podcast

Get FREE Mini-Course: Why You Feel Broken

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Books

  • Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence | Dr. Anna Lembke

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Episode 105

[00:00:00] If you're a woman who struggles with unwanted sexual behavior, you are not alone. The myth of porn or even lust being just a male problem is just that, a myth. And more importantly, healing and freedom are within reach for you, even if you don't feel like it. In this episode, brave author and speaker, Rachel Kalacki, shares her struggles with unwanted sexual behavior and a valuable resource for women struggling too.

Plus, we talk about the emotions that sexual struggles brought into her life. She shares how she found freedom and helps other women now. Two, we touch on what freedom from unwanted sexual behavior actually looks like. She offers advice on how you should respond if you have a relapse. And finally, she gives encouragement for any women struggling that feel hopeless.

Such a beautiful and refreshing conversation. So keep listening.[00:01:00]

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents'. Divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. This is episode 1 0 5. This episode is also part six of our series called Healing Sexual Brokenness.

On this show, we feature stories and expert interviews about how to heal from the trauma of your parents divorce and broken family, or how to navigate the pain and the problems that stem from it. One of the biggest problems that often stems from your family's breakdown. is unwanted sexual behavior like pornography, masturbation, hookup culture, paying for sex, infidelity, and so much more.

In fact, one expert found that almost 90 percent of those who struggle with sexual addiction come from a broken family. In this series, you'll get tactics and resources to overcome unwanted sexual behavior so you can find freedom. [00:02:00] And a little trigger warning, this is obviously a mature topic, so we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around children.

With that, my guest today is Rachel Kolacki. Rachel is a Colorado native, depending on your definition of native, who earned her bachelor's and master's degree in theology from Ave Maria University. After beginning to share her testimony in college, Rachel has had the privilege of hearing dozens of beautiful stories of healing from sexual addiction and is pursuing certification in sexual addiction therapy.

Rachel married her husband Tommy in 2021, and they now live in Tampa, Florida with their daughter, where she enjoys the beach almost as much as she enjoys the mountains. Her book, Love and Recovery, is available through Ave Maria Press. Pumped for you to hear this conversation, but first just wanted to say They, in this episode, we do talk about God and faith, and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone listening for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast, so wherever you're at, I'm so glad that you're here. And if you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this. Just [00:03:00] listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God parts, you'll still benefit from this episode.

And lastly, before we jump in the conversation, funny story, during our interview, I completely lost power in our studio for hours. And so we had to reschedule the interview to finish on another day. And so you'll hear both parts in this episode, but just a warning if we mentioned that, or maybe the audio sounds a little bit different at parts.

Either way, it's a great, super helpful conversation with Rachel.

Rachel, it's such an honor to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me, Joey. I wanted to start with kind of the obvious question, like, why in the world do you care so much about women who struggle with lust or unwanted sexual behavior, however you want to talk about it? Yeah, I, well, I love that this is your first question, because usually right out of the gate, people ask me for stats of like, Why, why or just that I have to prove that women struggle.

So why do I care? I think because I experienced personally the isolation [00:04:00] and just the heaps upon heaps of shame that are associated with women struggling with sexual addiction in my own story. And then. When I would reach out for help, there was just nothing. So I, I think I just wanted to create what I would have needed at the time.

And yeah, that's why I move forward. That's beautiful. You felt that you've been through it and I want to go deeper there. I'm curious as much as you're comfortable sharing, what's your story? What's your struggle been like with this? Yeah. So I was exposed to porn when I was 13, which statistically is a little bit late.

I think the average age for girls is 11 and boys is nine, but it kind of, Answered a lot of, uh, questions I had a lot of discomfort I had with myself because of early kind of violations of my sexuality that I experienced as a child. So I was headed into middle school with a lot of discomfort and yeah, just already a lot of bodily shame.

And so pornography kind of came into my life in in that. That season and felt just kind of like [00:05:00] medicine to those insecurities and those experiences and I ended up struggling for about five years after that. So I didn't enter recovery until I was a sophomore in college, but yeah, I was, it was five years of kind of this on and off battle with the content itself, but also just with whether or not I was actually struggling.

I went through a lot of narratives in my head of, you know, women don't watch porn, so that can't be what I'm watching or. I'm the only one who struggles with this and so I can't tell anyone or just lots of back and forth and it kind of felt like. Because the church was not giving me a framework for women struggling, that meant that God did not have a framework for me struggling.

So it was something that went largely unaddressed in my personal prayer life, um, in my friendships, I just, it was really my secret. And I started to slowly come to terms with what I was doing late in high school. And... I ended up telling my closest friend later on in high school as well. And [00:06:00] then in college was when I really came to grips with, like, what it could do to my life if I didn't get it under control.

I had tried a couple different tactics. Like, I had gotten rid of my smartphone for a while. I, you know, I tried accountability. I tried a couple different things, but it took kind of a combination of a bunch of things eventually, but and just a lot of, a lot of prayer as well. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't have the...

The ability to enter recovery until sophomore year, when I finally those 2 narratives kind of came together of like, yes, I am a woman. I am struggling with this and yes, God does want to help me. There's a higher power that can help me. And once those 2 things came together, I was able to enter some healing beautiful.

And thanks for sharing. So, vulnerably, like you, I was 11 and that became my drug of choice, especially In the wake of my parents separation and later divorce. And so I totally got, you know, it's such an addictive thing, but it really serves such a basic need of calming ourselves when we feel anxious or whatever other need that we're [00:07:00] feeling by going to it.

So, um, so totally hear you there. And I love that, you know, in this. And what you just said is just this idea that you can be a woman and be fully woman and still struggle with this stuff. Like there's nothing that makes you less female, less women, less feminine, um, in struggling with this. Like, obviously we want to break free and leave that behind, but that doesn't make you any less of a woman.

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think a lot of the narratives that I heard. Whether from like secular or even church spaces, it's just, uh, there's just a lot of influence of purity culture of, it seems like we almost would prefer that women were asexual and we spend a lot of time, uh, talking to men about their sexuality, talking, there, there's permission for men to struggle, but there was never like, never once did I hear this addressed towards women from either a secular or a church standpoint, right.

Hmm. A lot of our, you know, any talk I heard or any sort of, like, youth event, it addressed, like, emotions. It was all about [00:08:00] emotions. It was all about modesty, like, kind of just the hallmark topics for women, which aren't bad topics, but statistically, uh, you know, when. We hear that one in at least one in three porn addicts are women like it, you know, that kind of begs the question.

Why are we not addressing this early on? So, and I think there's another study that I saw that said it's like 60 percent of girls in high school are watching porn regularly. So clearly it's a, it's a demographic that's in a lot of. And a lot of need and I was a part of that demographic, but yeah, there just wasn't, there was not any acknowledgement.

And so you do kind of start to have this identity crisis of, I love that you said like you're, you're fully woman. It's like, yeah, but when you're in the midst of it, you're questioning, like I'm struggling with a quote unquote male struggle. So what does that say about my femininity? And that's a whole nother level of the healing.

It's just kind of reintegrating your femininity, re kind of reestablishing it, owning it. And and being confident in it takes a lot of work. Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And I love that point about like the asexualness. I never put it in [00:09:00] that word like that makes so much sense. And I think a lot of the struggles I've heard from married couples to almost results in that where the woman almost in many ways becomes asexual.

And I wonder what component like this whole, like you said, purity culture plays and making that a reality within marriage. Any thoughts on that? I know it's kind of a side. No, that's that's hot button. I think you're getting. Something right on the nose there because I encounter a lot of the same thing with sort of our married women is, I think there's just been a lot of ignorance of women's desire, women's experience sexually, whether in marriage or outside of it.

A lot of the ways we teach young people about sex does not reflect the female experience. It reflects the male experience. So we're not acknowledging that. Especially starting out, it can be painful. It can be like very emotional and strange. There can just be a lot of mixed feelings heading into it.

There can be a lot of trauma that both men and women experience that affect the relationship. So I think in marriage, oftentimes, I know in kind of the more religious sphere, we [00:10:00] get sort of this prosperity gospel mindset about it. And just like if we follow this set of ethical rules beforehand, then in marriage, we'll just experience pure bliss.

And you're two broken people bringing... Very broken stories together to form one beautiful but broken story and so I think when I'm what at least on my end when I'm talking with with women who are dealing with sexual addiction and perhaps, um, some stuff within their marriages. Oftentimes they're struggling with sexually addictive behaviors because there's an ignorance or a disregard of their experience happening within their marriage.

There's an ignorance of their desire. They're seen as like, uh, just kind of. I don't want to say subordinate, but but just kind of sexually second, like their, their experience matters less than the male experience. So, um, I don't know if that answers the question, but those are kind of some off the top observations that I have totally.

And I think we, let's stay here for a second because I think this is super, super relevant to anyone. We're scandalizing with this topic. Pope John Paul, the second wrote about this [00:11:00] stuff and love and responsibility. And so just crack that open and you'll, I'm sure we scandalize, but it's so good. I say that like, and just because you.

This is such an important topic because I agree. I've talked with like plenty of couples now married who, yeah, they were kind of sold this idea. Like you really well said that if you, you know, save sex for marriage, sex within marriage is going to be pure bliss, like you said, and that is just not always the case.

And so it's, in fact, I don't know many cases where that is the case right off the bat. It takes time to. Learn how to love essentially. And so, uh, so yeah, I think it's, it's really important that any young people listening right now, especially anyone who's dating or engaged, like when you're approaching, you know, your wedding night, you know, it's not going to be a pure bliss and, you know, Rachel, you already threw out like it, it could hurt and probably will.

And it's not something that is going to be like mind blowing and amazing right away, but in time. Wait, if you work at it and love each other and, you know, communicate well, and it could be really, really beautiful. I remember talking to Chris Stefanik at one point. Um, [00:12:00] he was giving me some advice and he was saying, he's like, Oh yeah, sex in your thirties is like way better than your twenties.

I was like, really dive into that. Yeah, I know. I know. It's like, wow. Okay. Yeah. Cause I, you know, I think, um, I know for me after, you know, struggling with pornography and other unwanted sexual behavior, um, Trying to live a pure life and make that making my life so much better. I did have this like goal of marriage of being like, okay, I'm saving everything for marriage.

And then I think like within marriage, like, like you so well said, there's like this, the expectations, you know, don't match the reality. And then that leads us into this thing of like, man, I just spent so many years of my life kind of preparing for this. Waiting for this, hoping this would be like everything that I imagined and it's not, it's different.

Um, and maybe that's the point it's different. And so I think that's where I found it so helpful. And I try to be that man for other guys is like, if you're someone who's approaching marriage, like talk to. Ideally the same sex partner in a [00:13:00] good marriage that you admire that can give you some like realistic ideas of like what it will be like, I mean, I've done it for all my friends and some of my friends were able to do that for me a little bit, but I wish there was one more there as well.

So I threw out a lot there, but I'm just curious if you have any other advice or thoughts for any young person listening right now, again, who's in the dating scene, who's maybe engaged moving towards marriage and we want to help them avoid maybe what the people we know have been through and perhaps we've been through as well.

Yeah, that's no, I think what you said is so beautiful too. I'm just seeking out the wisdom and community and just, yeah. Cause I think we feel like we can do that in things like conflict or prayer together or something like, you know, I feel like, yeah, when I was engaged, I could reach out to some wives who are maybe 10, 20 years ahead of me and ask for advice.

But when it comes to the topic of sex, we're like hands off, like we don't want to talk about it, which just perpetuates the problem. It's, but it is. It's a place of growth and communication in marriage, just like everything else is, and it's just, yeah, nothing is [00:14:00] 100 percent perfect from day one, I think. I think what I would say is just, like, expect healing.

Like, expect healing. That, like, we're all damaged by an over sexualized, porn saturated culture, and that even if we have been trying our best to live within sexual integrity, like, we're going to be affected by that. So, whatever struggles you're bringing from the past and like, however much healing you've received, just expect more.

And that's a beautiful thing to experience together. It's not something scary. It just deepens the emotional, physical, spiritual union that you entered into in the first place. But, but yeah, just venturing into the conversation doesn't mean scary. It doesn't mean you're going to get hurt. It doesn't mean you're not going to understand each other.

And this is going to be just an awkward, terrible place. It just means there's going to be lots of healing. And don't be afraid of that. I think that's what marriage is for. That's beautiful. And like you said, I think porn and especially movies too, in a lot of ways, which can certainly be pornographic, have just like, so warped our expectations of what sex will actually look like.

We think it's going [00:15:00] to be this like crazy, like explosive thing that takes no effort. It's just like, especially like you were saying for women, like so much porn, not all porn, but so much porn is made for men. And so it's like, we've The men have been conditioned to think, well, all women are like this. And so if I do this, then therefore my wife will be pleased.

It's like, no, no, no, no, that's not how it works. So male centric. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much more. I'm sure we can, can say there any final thoughts before we move on? No, I think what you, yeah, what you just said begs, begs a lot, but we can, yeah, we can move wherever you want. Let's go back in time to when, um, yeah, you were just like really, really wrestling with this.

What were the feelings or emotions that you were going through? Because I think so often when we have these conversations about like freedom and transformation, we skip over this stuff. So like, what was like in your chest? Like, what were you wrestling with in terms of the feelings and the emotions? Yeah.

Thanks for asking. I know for me, again, kind of the, the things that porn kind of [00:16:00] soothed in me were Just feelings of deep awkwardness or shame or discomfort in regards to my, my femininity and my female body because of lines that have been crossed and so ironically, you get some relief from consumption, or I would get some relief from consumption for just a moment.

And then it would end up feeding that feeling even more. It also created just a lot of isolation. And kind of a pattern of dishonesty and a Lemke wrote a great book called dopamine nation. I don't know if you've ever read it, but she talks about how addiction eventually has to be covered in dishonesty because you're so used to covering your tracks with everyone, including yourself about your unwanted behaviors, that it becomes this lying habit where you just kind of end up spiraling.

So I kind of, I surrounded myself with kind of a lot of like lies, a lot of dishonesty for a time. I could just very easily make up a version of the truth that served my needs in the moment, which created a lot of dissociation between like myself and reality. [00:17:00] A lot of the times. So, yeah, it just. I think all of those things, yeah, just kind of created this perfect storm of just keeping me further and further away from God, myself, other people, and yeah, just deep, deep isolation.

No, that totally makes sense. And thanks again for sharing so vulnerably. I know these are like sensitive topics, so I appreciate that. And no, I love what you said. I'll have to check out that book. I think, yeah, just this whole, like... Secrecy this theme of secrecy in our lives when we're struggling with the stuff is just so common and that I think even in itself can be like addictive where we just get so used to the maybe the excitement or the intrigue or whatever we want to say about secrecy.

And so I think that in and of itself can be can be a real a real struggle. But on that note, and feel free to add anything you'd like. I'm just curious what helped you find freedom. Yeah, there's a few different things. I think it was my senior year of high school that I started to kind of finally put the pieces together, admit to myself what I was doing, kind of started to desire some [00:18:00] freedom.

So one day without much Explanation. I just woke up and decided to get rid of my smartphone. I remember going to the Verizon store and standing behind this older woman who was with her daughter looking for a phone. And the older woman said, like, I just want something with buttons and a small screen. I can press the buttons.

And then the guy asked me what I wanted. I was like, whatever she's having, like, I'll just be fine for her is what I want. But that, that put some distance between me and, and just the availability of porn in my life. So, you know, Yeah, just not having a smartphone in my back pocket all the time served me really well.

So that created some longer gaps of sobriety. But there was still all the internal stuff brewing and then I got to college and it was actually a, a guy who began pursuing me that it, it kind of his purity and kind of his intentionality about that process and the process of getting to know him and wanting to enter into a relationship with him [00:19:00] that really convicted me and brought my shame to the surface of just like, I.

I can't have the relationship I want if I'm doing this on the side. And that relationship didn't end up lasting very long, but I'm still so grateful that kind of just his virtue led me to a different place, at least for a time, because I, it wasn't perfect after that either. I, I definitely still fell quite a lot, but I was able to enter like long term recovery a few months after we broke up, which was, um, which was huge for me.

So yeah, just kind of being motivated by this desire for, for a relationship that wasn't consumed by lust or use and, or dishonesty and just one that could be transparent and honest and virtuous and good and uplifting. And then, yeah, personally, it was also things like. Exercise, getting the right amount of sleep, filling my cup with like service of other people with good relationships and friendships and opportunities that [00:20:00] excited me and used my gifts.

And I definitely had to learn how to, how to just express my creativity, express my desire in healthy ways. And that took time, but that was huge for me as well. Beautiful. Yeah. So it's not like a, One and done thing. I think that's important to say, because a lot of people maybe have that perspective when they hear people who kind of had these miraculous recoveries where it's like, Oh, yeah, I just stopped and never looked again.

And it's like, that is very, very rare. If ever, maybe that might even be true, but very rare. And then also, yeah, just this. Reality that we can't just remove it from our life. Like you said before, we need to replace it. We need to find other outlets, other things in our lives that give us life, that give us that dopamine that we're craving or whatever other chemicals we're craving.

So that makes so much sense. And I love that holistic approach. And I think. It's important, and you can talk about this way more than I could, but it's important to have not just the defensive strategies, but also the offensive strategies, because I think so often we kind [00:21:00] of stop with the defensive, like we get an accountability partner, we put, you know, software in our phones or even get rid of the phone.

I mean, those are great. Like, those are good and necessary, but they're not sufficient. Like, they don't end up. And that's what I heard you say. Like, they don't end up bringing you the freedom that you really long for, even if they just work in the short term. Yeah, well said. An instructor I had. once said that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's intimacy.

And I kind of looking at my own story, I can see how that's incredibly true and also in my work. Now I can see how that's incredibly true. I think we, we can get addicted to, like, finding the answer, right? Like, finding a silver bullet that will take our addiction away that can become an addicting feeling in and of itself.

Just like this will finally be the thing that gets rid of it. Yeah. And yeah, I've never seen no two stories are alike. And even in the work I do now and in the recovery group system that we've kind of created, we have to create a system that welcomes so many different individual stories [00:22:00] and can be supplemented by so many different things or act as a supplement to so many different things.

You just have to make space for people and their stories and you have to make space for yourself and what you need. And there's just no, there's no one thing. I wish there was when that was so easy. But yeah, I, looking back at my own story, I don't give the best advice on like how I recovered because it took so many different things and there were so many different layers and years of, of work and still years of work on covering what happened and, and why.

And I think. Maybe one of the best things you can do is accept that healing is going to be an ongoing process and to welcome that and see it as an adventure rather than a threat. That's kind of a big mindset shift, but just that there's going to be layers to this and there's going to be different avenues you take to reveal those layers.

Yeah, no, that's so good. I think it was John Eldredge who wrote that. Healing, like you said, it's not like a silver bullet. There's not like five steps that everyone can complete. There are some healing principles that we [00:23:00] can follow, of course, but it looks different for everyone. Like the particular application can look different.

And so the way he said it, I remember is like, it's personal. It's like individual to the person and I found that to be so true and another thing too about like kind of reflecting back on your own experience and then giving advice based on that is timing. It's so big. Like I've seen that in my life too.

It's like literally someone could have said the exact same thing to me or offered this solution, you know, five years ago and I would have been like, Nope, I'm not going to do that. I want that. And then, you know, five years later, it's like, I'm totally on board. Like, why would I ever say no? Yeah. So, so I think that's something when we have these conversations, it's important to kind of take that into account.

I know, um, I know that's been the case for me. Yeah, absolutely. I think I had one of the big parts of my kind of entry into recovery was a really big experience of prayer and Eucharistic adoration. And I know that I couldn't have had that experience except like at that very moment, like, [00:24:00] that was the time to surrender to God.

It was like this, this was the moment. I don't know if I could have had it as authentically before or after, and I think trust, like this is another thing that a lot of women ask me is like, what if I don't want to recover and it's like, well, just use St. Augustine's prayer, you know, pray for the, the want to want the desire to want to recover, because if you don't have that desire right now, like the trust that God can create it in you, you know, and that's your first step, but don't be ashamed that that's your first step.

Like he doesn't want, He doesn't want your journey to be inauthentic. He wants it to be incredibly real and there's just no, there's no forcing it and I, I think white knuckling recovery only sends you back into the spiral. It's, it's a form of control. So you have to be patient with yourself. Love that.

Love that. And how honest is that? I love that. Some of them would say that, like, I don't know if I want to quit. That's beautiful all the time. I hear it all the time. [00:25:00] Yeah, that's good. Honesty is like totally inspiring to me because I think, you know, it also shows us that there is something in whatever, you know, addiction or compulsion we have that is providing for some need that we have.

And so when we, you know, think of cutting it off, we probably think of having that need go unmet. And of course we wouldn't want that. Why would anyone want that? And so we do need to find a way to meet that need. And I think people just think that's not possible. And so we're going to get into all of that, um, with the ministry that you run, the awesome ministry that you run.

But before we get there, I'm just curious, like, contrast your life for us. Like, what was it like When you were in the midst of this versus now, and I know it's always a work in progress. We're always growing and healing and all that. But, um, I'm just curious kind of what's life like now compared to then.

Yeah. It's interesting because a few things come to mind. Number one, I mean, you can hear one of the greatest effects of my life in the background right now, my daughter's talking. So that's very different being a mom, being a wife. Yeah, I, it's funny because I talk about this all the time [00:26:00] for work, I have to face my own story daily for work, but at the same time it feels just kind of like a drop of a drop in the ocean of who I am, it doesn't feel like the predominant part of my story.

And so I think that's just, that is really interesting is that like, I, I just feel more myself, I think, than I did when I was addicted. I felt, I felt distant from myself, distant from the Lord and his plan for me. But I still felt like myself. I think it just felt like a shell. So, at times. So I think now it's just like, I just feel more real, which is, is huge.

You know, it's like in, it's like in C. S. Lewis The Great Divorce, how when, you know, the ghosts are treading closer and closer to heaven, the grass beneath their feet becomes Like more real, more dense, more hard. And so they're kind of ghost like feet can't tread upon it without getting hurt. They have to become more [00:27:00] real in response.

So I think part of healing for me has just been like my life becoming more and more real, you know, more and more tangible right in front of me and I have to respond by becoming somebody who can walk in that life. So looking back at. Kind of my season of addiction. Yeah. It just, I can see just a more ghost like version of Rachel, you know, that wasn't quite as real, but she was there.

She was good. She was beautiful. She was loved, but just not quite as real yet. And so I hope, I hope I'm just on more and more of a journey of just becoming more myself. And at the end of my life that that will be, I will be more fully myself, more fully God. Yeah, no, that makes sense. And yeah. I know, um, what, what I see from what you've shared with me is that you've kind of built this structure in your life that, you know, not perfect, but you built a structure in your life that makes the need for pornography in particular, go away and, and, or maybe not go away, but the lessons, the temptation, at least, and I, and I think that's [00:28:00] beautiful.

I think there's a big lesson in that. And I know you help a lot of women. To do exactly that as well. And so I wanted to go there. If you would tell us about Magdala, what do you offer and how does it help women? Yeah, and I like what you said because I I definitely have felt the the need largely disappear It's off.

I mean all of us are neurological like biological beings. So if if porn were presented to me again I don't know what my response would be but I have no desire to seek it out, which is a gift I think yeah magdala I don't know if we talked about this earlier on Because it's been a couple of days, but yeah, um, I took the small group model that we use on our college campus and our recovery group and launched it to kind of a more virtual platform.

So we offer virtual groups for adult women of all ages. We're serving women in 37 countries right now, which is awesome. So we have hundreds and hundreds of participants. It's such a gift. We average 12 inquiries a week for a [00:29:00] group. So 12 women on average come to us each week asking for help, which we are so honored by.

And these are women from all walks of life. We have single women, women who are dating married mothers. We have religious sisters in our community. Like, we have so many beautiful women, uh, just engaging, engaging with us. So, in kind of a closed, confidential, small group, women journey through a 17 session curriculum that we developed just kind of.

Based on our own, the team's experiences of recovery, we had it reviewed by a team of psychologists and clergy and people who were active kind of in addiction and rehab work to kind of ensure that we were theologically accurate, because we're a pastoral resource, but also to ensure that. We're psychologically informed and actually helping women build a strong foundation for recovery.

So in that curriculum and in their small groups, women cover topics like body image dissatisfaction. They cover woundedness, especially from family of origin and [00:30:00] childhood. They cover. Uh, their triggers, lies about their identity that come from addiction and the shame that kind of ensues. Uh, they talk about spiritual warfare, they talk about sexual integrity in their relationships.

There's all sorts of topics that are covered, but just really robust, really fruitful discussions come from it. And each group is led by a woman who is in recovery herself. So women who have received kind of a certain level of stability, so they can then kind of give that out. Uh, to the women in their groups, and we are always, always looking for small group leaders.

So if a woman listening to this is interested, please reach out to us through our website, because we're always looking and we, I think we have two or 200 or so women on our wait list right now to get into a group. So huge need out there. Yeah. And then we produce content to kind of bring women in through just starting the conversation in the public sphere.

So we speak at retreats and events and all sorts of stuff. We're just. Getting the message out there and trying to kind of reverse the course of how we've spoken about [00:31:00] women in this topic. Love that. So good. And yeah, we have a lot of leaders listening as well. And so, yeah, check out Magda, check out, uh, Rachel's talks and bring her in to speak, bring the team in to speak, and maybe you Yeah, no, yeah, seriously, this is so so needed.

And so I just want to encourage everyone if that wasn't clear to like, take action on this and reach out and at least learn more about it. The I'm curious a little bit more about the groups because I can hear some people maybe asking one to ask more questions. So it's like, in terms of how they work, are they always virtual?

Or can they be in person? https: otter. ai What does that look like? And how long is a typical session? It sounds like you meet weekly. Is that right? They meet at least twice a month. So some leaders prefer to do twice a month. Some of our leaders do weekly. The curriculum in total takes about 10 months to journey through as a group.

And each session is about an hour or two. We tell leaders to set aside 90 minutes. So that's kind of our advice. But Yeah, they pray together. They enter into discussion together. [00:32:00] We are Catholic in founding and kind of Catholic in ethics, but we have women from all religious traditions joining us, which is awesome.

Uh, some women with no religious tradition at all, uh, but just are focused on, on freedom and what sexual integrity can bring to their lives. They're not always virtual. We have. Chiefly virtual resources so that we can continue that international outreach, but we do partner with college campuses to help them facilitate groups in person.

I think we have 12 college campuses heading into the school year because we just launched that last year. And then we also partner with, with churches to help them facilitate groups as well. So we'll onboard and train the leaders and mentor them on campuses and parishes. And yeah, and just kind of walk alongside them as they, as they lead.

So good. Love that. And if someone listening right now is like, okay, I'm not going to listen to the rest of the interview. I just want to go sign up. How do they do that? Do they, I assume just go to the website, but I'm curious of the process from like, start to finish. If someone's like afraid, especially like, I don't know what this is [00:33:00] going to be like.

Yeah, so you go to magdalenministries. org and then at the top of our website there's a little tab that says join. There's many, many buttons that say join a group all over the website, so if you can't see it you will run into one if you poke around the website. And under the join tab you just kind of select which one you're interested in.

Are you interested in a virtual group? Are you interested in bringing Magdalen to your campus or parish or your church? And you just kind of click on the tab, you send in a little bit of info to us. If you're scared, please tell us because we hear that all the time. Many women just send in messages saying, like, I don't know if I'm ready.

I need to know. No, I need to know more before I join. We send out tons of information to you. Um, so that you know what you're getting yourself into before you sign up for a group. You have plenty of time to decide. There's no rush and all of your submissions stay confidential to just our our leadership team of four.

So nobody will see your story and what you submit but us. And we take that whole list to, to prayer. So every woman who submits to us is in our prayers. And even if that's all you [00:34:00] need right now, we would love to be praying for you. So feel free to submit. And then if you're interested in being a group leader.

You go to the join a virtual group tab as well and then can submit that you're interested in being a leader. It's a little box you can check. Thanks for making it so clear. And yeah, there's so much fear that holds people back from doing this stuff. So I think that's really helpful to see how simple it is.

And, um, yeah, and just the fact, I mean, hopefully by this point in the conversation, everyone knows like how just compassionate, empathetic you are. Like it, it just bleeds off of you, by the way, which is beautiful. That honors me a lot. Yeah. And so I think like, that's going to be your experience of Magdala.

You're not going to go to Magdala and you're not going to go to Magdala and be judged or shamed for your struggle. It's like, no, no, no. They just want to love you through it. And it'd be there in the midst of the mess with you. So love that. I am curious about, you know, stories of transformation, um, of the women do that.

So yeah. What, what kind of successes have you seen? Uh, what successes have the women in your groups experience? Thanks for asking. Yeah. These are. These are the things that kind of keep [00:35:00] us going. One of the biggest. Kind of victories that we've been seeing lately because we started in 2021 and spring of 2021.

So about two and a half years old is in the past year. We've seen this turnover of women who are group participants entering recovery and then becoming small group leaders. So we're really starting to see traction there of women who receive from our community and then want to give back, which wasn't a part of it at, you know, in the first year, it was largely recruited small group moderators.

And we still do some recruitment, some women who have recovered through other means and, and want to give. But a lot of our leaders are our past participants, which is huge for us. So there's a couple that, you know, are just absolute rock stars. One, one moderator is really good about sending us kind of glory stories.

She calls them every few months. She'll just, she'll send us the leadership team an email with some stories. And she said two girls in her group recently were. They were both dating and, uh, [00:36:00] we're both struggling with, I think both pornography and masturbation and had put off their engagements until they entered a stable recovery for about six months.

And she emailed saying both of them got engaged this summer and were able to enter into kind of preparing for their vocation, which was awesome. So that was huge. Another kind of angle that we've gotten into recently, that's Kind of a story of transformation is we have women who are trying to leave the porn production industry.

So they reach out to us for help as well. Those are some of my favorite conversations to have with women. I just think, I think these women are beautiful and I just love talking to them and their courage just absolutely stuns me. I'm just in awe of their, their courage to reach out and to leave. An industry that's made them very comfortable and provided for them.

And sometimes the only type of work they've ever known. And so they're just incredible women. So we get to have those conversations as well, which has been huge, but yeah, there's like endless stories. We just, we, uh, we love our community. I think. We're just [00:37:00] surrounded by incredibly stunning women inside and out.

So I feel very blessed. Love it. I love all those stories. And especially that you guys are, you know, helping those women who are stuck in the porn industry. And like you said, making maybe a lot of money off of it. And it's such a scary thing to take that jump. So that that's so beautiful. In the remaining time we had left, I just want to get your advice on a few things for all of us listening.

One is, I'm curious, like, what does freedom from sexual brokenness, from unwanted sexual behavior in particular, actually look like? Because I know we kind of throw that around a lot. And we touched on this a little bit before, like, it's not a silver bullet, not a one and done thing. But I'm curious, like, let's define that a bit.

Like, what does freedom actually look like? This is a conversation that we have internally as well. Because I talk to a lot of women who perhaps are sober or, you know, even a few years in, and they just ask, like, will it ever, will it ever be easy? Like, will I ever not have this constant tension and difficulty with myself and difficulty with temptation?

I think the [00:38:00] answers are resounding yes. I don't think temptation is ever going to go away because we're simple people and living in a fallen world. And so I think that the temptation, even if it changes, it's still going to exist. But I think there's an absolute resounding yes to you can be free from this tension you feel between this old answer that you used to give yourself to this new life of, like, kind of just looking on your sexuality as a whole with blessing.

I'd say that's kind of where the past few years have taken me is. With the help of some mentors and also just a really incredible therapist, I was able to dive into my story and look at those, those experiences that led me to pornography in the first place and just love that little girl, bless her and carry her forward.

Just be like, you, you're good, but you're not, you're not driving the car anymore. Now adult Rachel is, and, and here's what she's learned. So [00:39:00] I think sometimes a little kid in us is still. Raging a little bit, and that can cause the tension and inhibit our freedom. And so you kind of have to dive into some really hard parts of your story that you feel may not be related to your current struggle, but usually they are.

And yeah, so I think, I think the people that I talked to who. Are still feeling a little afraid that they're never going to find freedom. Maybe there's just a part of your heart that you're ignoring that just wants to be met where it is, whether that's something from your childhood, something from your adolescence, or just a place of neglect in your life right now.

I think there's just. You have to engage with your whole heart in order to be free. And it's not just freedom from, it's also freedom for as Fulton sheen put it. So, um, focusing on what are you free to do now, not just what are you free from and kind of cast your gaze forward rather than backward. That helps too.

Love that. So good. And yeah, I think there's probably so many different measures of freedom in, in someone's life, whether it's men or women. I know we're talking about women in particular here, but yeah, [00:40:00] there's obviously the self-mastery component where it's like, if faced with that temptation. You wouldn't say yes, you would say no, that's beautiful.

But that's not the only measure. You know, I think like you've experienced, even the temptation leaving itself is really a beautiful measure of freedom. But also, like you said, like the offensive or the proactive component of like, yeah, you have these different needs. There's different parts of yourself that need to be attended to, whether they're broken or just something that Like you said, physiological, like you need to be working out, like you need your body needs to feel like the endorphins, like all that good stuff.

So I think there's like so many angles to this and it can't be simplified necessarily. So that I think that's really important. But no, I just love that. Uh, that that message again and again. I hope everyone has heard that theme that this is possible. It is possible to break free. And yes, I think we're like you said as humans, we're always going to feel like we're sexual beings.

We're always going to be able to at any point. To feel a temptation to do something wrong [00:41:00] sexually, but we can grow as people and kind of put that into rear view mirror as well. And so I think that's such a hopeful message. Yeah. I hope so. I think also like making sure that your recovery is your own, you know, I think we can have models of inspiration and of hope, but even those models are still in recovery and still healing, you know, it's a lifelong thing.

So I think just. Yeah, maybe sitting intentionally with yourself, with God, asking the right questions of, you know, what do you want for me and, and who am I and letting that be what drives you forward, not this picture that you have of somebody else in the life they're living now. Like, I have a lot of people mistakenly credit the fact that I'm recovered with my marriage and saying those.

You know, that I'm, oh, you're fine now because you got married and it's like, well, no, you don't, you didn't see like the three, four years of really intense work before I even met my husband and that that was the foundation of [00:42:00] my long term recovery was long before I even met him. So I think sometimes we can idolize a state in life.

We can idolize a person can idolize a life experience, whatever it may be, and be like, and set that up kind of as this. this ideal and I think real freedom comes when you recover as only you can and when you heal as only you can and for everybody that's going to look different, you know, yeah, no, I love that.

That's so good. And yeah, I love that lesson too of what you just said that, you know, marriage is not like the fulfillment of porn or, you know, something like that. That's such a faulty idea that I think is really popular that, Oh, well, once I have that, I won't need the porn. I won't need the masturbation.

It's like, no, no, no, it's that's. It's actually going to infect your marriage and cause a lot of issues there as well. So I, I'm really grateful for that. And I think, uh, one of the things I remember one of my professors, uh, at Franciscan talking about is that, you know, you know, you've integrated a virtue into your character.

If you can. Do that virtue, perform that habit, whatever, with ease, promptness [00:43:00] and joy, ease, promptness and joy. And so, um, if you're not there yet, to everyone listening, that's okay. Like that's the work. That's what we need to do. But once you get to that point, um, and again, that's just one component. Like there's maybe the sexual struggle.

We want to have mastery over that, but there's something so much deeper, like you're saying of like the healing of the whole person and being able to thrive in life, not just say no to porn. That's just a small part of it. So, but I love that framework of ease, promptness and joy. It's kind of a. A measurement of how we're doing with maybe that particular virtue that there is so much more to say there.

Yeah. I love that. Wow. I haven't heard it simplified that much, but yeah. I mean, I think it's Aristotle who talks about like virtuous. Yeah. Virtue is when it's It's done with ease and not when you have to wrestle with sort of the enemy in yourself or the outside enemy in order to be virtuous. It's when it's done with ease.

So I like the ease, promptness and joy though. That's, that's a, that's a good cap. No, for sure. I wish I could take credit for that, but I can't smart professor. Along these [00:44:00] lines, I think it's so common, right, to be on this path of recovery and then have a relapse. And so if someone has a relapse, how would you advise that they respond to that?

Well, I think relapse is a normal part of recovery too, which I think people wish it wasn't, but a relapse was absolutely a part of my story. I think respond with curiosity, which is a weird answer, but instead of immediately condemning yourself. Respond with, you know, why did that happen? Like, it's a moment to examine your triggers and examine your places of growth and what you've learned, but then also places where you clearly need to be putting in more effort.

I think it was Henry now and who. Wrote this great kind of passage about how he was talking about, he may have been talking about relapse in addiction, but he's also talking about just when you fall into a habitual sin that you thought you had gotten out of. But, um, when you're driving a car on a road, he was like, when you run off the road, you don't get back on at the beginning of the road.

You get back on where you, where you [00:45:00] drove off and it's kind of the same with relapse of, um, you're not at the beginning of the road again. The shame is going to tell you that you are, the shame is going to feel like you are. But you get back on where you left off everything you've gained you've you've gained and that hasn't left you so take those tools that you have now enter into curiosity about why you relapse repent, you know, go through, um, what you need to go through to to make yourself right with with God and yourself and other people.

Absolutely. But but be curious about what led you there and it can be relapses. Devastating but can be a an incredible learning experience that bolsters your your growth and your recovery long term love that I think that yeah, like you're saying there's so much to be learned in the relapse I a priest once told me that Augustine said that less is the sin of the proud Less is the son of the proud which I think is so true for so many reasons maybe more that we can even get into in this show, but [00:46:00] one of I think the Antidotes to lust is not just purity, but humility.

And what is more humbling than relapsing? Yeah, so true. So it's like, there's, I think there's a bigger lesson to be learned than just like, okay, I slipped up there, or maybe even, you really slipped up, you like, you made big mistakes, it's like, okay, get back on the track, get back on the track, get back on the track, like, the temptation in that moment is to become very discouraged and just to walk away.

And to be like, I'm done. I'm done. And, and at that point, the winning is staying in the game. Winning is staying in the game. And, uh, and I think like we need to hear that all of us again and again, again, in multiple areas of our life, but especially in this area. Yeah, absolutely. It's like, um, what is it? You hear all the fitness instructors talking about how, like, if you miss a workout, just get back in the gym the next day, even if it's for 10 minutes.

Like, it doesn't matter. Like, just get back in because it's about consistency over performance. And it's the same with, with recovery. I think consistency over performance, you know, a B plus day or a B minus day is better than one a plus day every once in a while, [00:47:00] you know? So no, I love that. I, I know, um, uh, the gym that I've been going to recently, one of the things that they say along those notes is like, just keep moving, just keep moving.

It's like, you don't need to be lifting a crazy amount of weight. You don't need to do like a crazy amount of reps, but like, keep moving. And, uh, and for me, that's been kind of like, okay, I don't need to be the best. I don't need to be like shocking everyone with how fit I am. I just need to keep moving and stay humble.

And, and that like there's. Yeah, show up and then that like you if you keep doing that you will get to where you want to go eventually It might take longer than you think there might be a few extra detours along the way But in my experience like you will get to where you need to be. Absolutely To to the woman listening right now who feels just stuck who's thinking like I know I need help But I just don't want to deal with this right now.

What would you say? Mmm, I see you first of all, I feel you second That's exactly why, like, I show up to [00:48:00] work every day. That's why my team shows up to work is to create community for you. You know, you are the woman that we have in our mind that we're, we're striving to welcome. So you're the reason I show up to my desk every day.

So just don't leave me hanging, you know, like come join us. Yeah, just that we've truly seen and heard it all, and so has God, so even, yeah, even if you feel stuck or just don't want to deal with it, if you just show up, if you just take one step, that's enough. You give him an inch, he'll go a mile, so give an inch.

And also, like, I know I can speak for myself and my entire team. Like, Your story is the source of our joy at work, hearing, hearing stories of like incredible, devastating darkness transformed into glory. That's that is our joy. So we'd be honored if you give us the chance to see that happen in your life to together.

feeling stuck is one of the , one of the worst. But again, just step one is, uh, step one's, all it takes. [00:49:00] And, uh, and you're not committing to like a life sentence or anything, . No. By doing that, it's like there, you know, for some reason you need to take a breather, a break, uh, you know, that's always an option.

And so I think that's a good thing, um, to, to have in the back of your mind to kind of combat that fear. Absolutely. Yeah, that before we close down here, I'm curious about your book. Tell us about it, like what's in it and where can we buy it? Yeah. So it's called love and recovery, uh, through Ave Maria press.

They reached out to me a couple of years ago, just asking if I wanted to kind of write my story down and maybe the things I was learning is our, you know, the leader of our organization and just about women's stories. So that's what I did. I tried to compile. Kind of using my own story to craft the narrative, but I tried to compile all of the, the best things that we've been learning about what a woman's journey through sexual addiction recovery looks like.

So yeah, I, I think I put an interesting spin on a couple of things. Uh, there's lots of quoting of C. S. Lewis. So if you don't like him, you probably won't like me. Uh, but. Yeah. [00:50:00] So, um, it can be found through Ave Maria Press or, uh, just kind of any major book retailer. But I wrote specifically for women, obviously, but also to serve psychologists, men who are trying to understand the women in their lives, trying to put something in there for everyone.

So good. Love that. Thanks so much for, for writing that. And again, your vulnerability is admirable. And again, it's going to help so many people, as I know you've already seen, but again, uh, Rachel, how can people find you and Magdala online? Yeah, so I don't have any social media accounts, so you can't find me too much, except through uh, Magdala, and then I have a subset called the Contrarian, uh, so you can follow some of my writing if you want to keep up there.

But Magdala is where you're going to find all of the resources that you could be looking for, and that's magdalaministries. org. Blog is on there. Our podcast is on there. It's also on Apple and Spotify and YouTube. And yeah, and then the opportunities to join a group are also there. And then anybody who's interested in supporting us through group leadership, through financial support, you can also find the links on there.

Sweet. Love that. Since this [00:51:00] is a podcast audience quickly, I just wanted to ask what's your podcast like focus around? I imagine it's maybe stories of recovery and advice or what do you guys cover on there? Oh gosh. Um, kind of whatever I'm feeling like. I don't know if you relate to that, but I just, yeah, I kind of wing it.

Yeah, we've covered, uh, everything we have. One of our most popular episodes is on relapse, actually, uh, relapse to spiritual warfare to just kind of prayer and recovery, kind of the Catholic angle of like confession. We talk about that a lot. We talk about fertility cycles and, and health, um, women's health in relation to addiction.

I had a great episode with, um, Jay Stringer talking about sexual brokenness and healing. He's amazing. Yeah, she's kind of all over the place, but. It's just so many different elements of what a woman's recovery looks like. We had a series that my husband and I did on, uh, technology and media and its role in recovery and kind of making sure that technology's presence in your life is fruitful and meaningful and not destructive.

So yeah, kind of everything under the sun. Yeah. [00:52:00] Love it. No, all super relevant to, to this audience. And so thank you so much for being here again, Rachel. Um, we'll put all those links in the show notes guys, so you don't need to remember. Um, but Rachel, I want to give you the final word in closing out. What encouragement would you give to every woman listening right now who's struggling with unwanted sexual behavior?

I would say, I can't wait to see what God does with your passion. Cause that's, what's at the bottom of this. And I've just, I've never heard a woman's story where. Lust is attacking somebody apathetic or boring. It's always attacking the ones who are going to do great things. So yeah, whenever a woman tells me that this is part of her story, I just...

I get excited for what God's going to do. I get excited for what he's, he's going to do with that desire. Once lost has been killed, as C. S. Lewis would put it.

Such a great conversation. I'm such a big fan of Rachel's and of her team at Magdala. And so make sure to make use [00:53:00] of their resources. See the show notes for her book and for other resources that we mentioned as well. And if you or a woman struggling in your life are dealing with unwanted sexual behavior, share this episode with them.

There's so much hope. And so if you're that person who needs help. Please reach out. They're waiting to help you. They want to help you. Act now. As you likely know, so often at the root of sexual compulsion or brokenness is trauma. But before you can heal it, you have to first understand it. Our free mini course on trauma titled, Why You Feel Broken, consists of five short videos by a trauma therapist that answers the questions, What is trauma?

What impact does it have on your body? How does it affect your emotions? What does it do to your mind? And how does it affect your relationships? Again, once you understand what trauma is and how it's affecting you today, then you can begin to heal and build the life that you long for. To get the free course, it's super easy.

Just go to restoredministry. com slash broken, sign up for free and begin watching the mini [00:54:00] course. Again, that's restoredministry. com slash broken, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them.

Seriously, just take 30 seconds right now to message them. And in closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#104: Healing Sexual Brokenness: Why is Our Culture So Sexually Broken? | Christopher West

Our world is very sexually broken. The examples are endless: Pornography use, sexual compulsions, addictions, hookup culture, paying for sex, infidelity, sex trafficking, and much more.

But how did our world become so sexually broken? 

That’s the topic we tackle today with famous author and speaker Christopher West. If you’ve wrestled with sexual brokenness or noticed an ache inside that you that nothing seems to fill, this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

It's no secret that a world is very sexually broken. I mean, we can think of pornography, sexual compulsions, addictions, hook up culture, paying for sex, infidelity, sex trafficking so much more. But how did we get here? How did our world become so sexually broken? That's a topic we tackle today with famous author and speaker Christopher West. And so if you've wrestled with sexual Brokenness or wondered how our culture became so sexually broken. Keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast. Helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again, I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 104. This episode is also part five of our series called Healing Sexual Brokenness. So, on this show, we feature stories and expert interviews about how to heal from the trauma of your parents', divorce and broken family or how to navigate the pain and the problems that stem from it. And one of the biggest problems that often stems from your family breakdown is unwanted sexual behavior. Like the things I mentioned at the start of the show, pornography, masturbation, hookup culture, paying for sex infidelity and so much more. In fact, one expert found that almost 90% of those who struggle with sexual addiction come from a broken family. And so in this series, you'll get tactics and resources to overcome unwanted sexual behavior so you can find freedom and trigger warning. This is obviously a mature topic. So we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around Children with that. My guest today is Christopher West West is the author of more than a dozen books, including Word Made Flesh, Theology of the Body Explained Theology of the Body for beginners and good news about sex and marriage. His work has been featured in the New York Times on ABC news, MS NBC and Fox News and on countless Catholic and evangelical media platforms. His global lecturing best selling books, multiple audio and video programs and popular podcasts. Co-hosted by his wife Wendy have made him into one of the world's most recognized teachers of Saint John Paul, the second theology of the Body. He is the president of the theology of the Body Institute, but of all his titles and roles. He is most proud to call himself a devoted husband and father. Now, in this episode, we talk about God and faith and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. And if you don't believe in God. My challenge for you. Is this just listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. Also, if you're listening on audio and you want to see the images that Christopher references, just go ahead and click on the links in the show notes. And now here's my conversation with Christopher West Christopher. Welcome to the show. It's so great to have you here. Thank you, Joe. It's a pleasure to be with you and your audience. We're honored. There's so much sexual Brokenness in our world. I think everyone listening would agree. I mean, the examples are endless. We have pornography, sexual compulsion, addiction, hookup, culture, paying for sex, infidelity, sex trafficking, and so much more. I think we all desire better, but so many people feel stuck, they feel alone and they feel hopeless. But before we get to the remedy, I think it's helpful to go back in time. How in the world did we get here? We got here by misdirected desire. I think one of the most fundamental and important principles of a proper theological understanding of the world is, is this that the devil doesn't have his own clay? Uh What does that mean? It means the only clay that exists is God's clay, right? And God looked at the clay that he created and said, behold, it is very good. I I do this visual often with my, my audience is I'll take a piece of paper which hang on a sec. Uh Here I actually have, I'll take a piece of paper like this. And I'll say, I, I want you to imagine this is the most beautiful painting you've ever seen in your life. And I say, what is it? What's the most beautiful thing that, that there is? And I say this is man and woman just as God created us to be naked without shame. There's nothing more beautiful in the universe than this painting. Male and female. He created them. He blessed them and he said, be fruitful and multiply. They were naked without shame. That whole mystery of human sexuality and the call of the two to become one flesh so that life might come into the world. This is the most beautiful painting there is uh but there's an enemy who hates this painting and he hates this painting because this painting reveals the heavenly mystery of who God is. God himself is not sexual, but God himself is an eternal exchange of life, giving love, right? Uh A communion of three persons. And in the normal course of events, the union of the two man and woman leads to a third. And so we have a, we have an image here, a bodily representation or representation of the life-giving exchange of beauty itself, of, of the divine. And that's why the enemy hates this painting and his goal from the beginning was this. And this is exactly what has happened to this mystery of human sexuality in a fallen world. It gets all twisted up and, and this is what this is the classic mistake of spiritual people. And, and all of this is an answer to your question, Joey. But all of this has to be laid out to understand how we got in this mess, right? The typical response of spiritual people. And I put that in quotes because this is false spirituality, a false spirituality thinks you have to live a spiritual life ruptured from the body. And it's just not authentic spirituality. It is certainly not Christian spirituality but falsely spiritual people look at this crumpled up painting and, and what does it appear to be? It, it looks like trash, right? So spiritual people will say that's bad, throw it away and, and this is what you would call a puritanical approach to human sexuality. Spirit, good body, bad. Well, I find this fascinating in, in 1953 Hugh Hefner starts Playboy Magazine and this is what he said in 1953 he said I started Playboy Magazine as my personal response to the hurt and hypocrisy of puritanism in my strict Christian upbringing. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So Hugh Hefner in 1953 pulls this crumpled painting out of the trash and says to the modern world, hey, people, you shouldn't throw this away and guess what Hugh Hefner was right on this point. He was right that we shouldn't throw this away. But where did he get it wrong and wrong with horrific consequences, all of which you named and were living through and we still are reaping the horrors of Hugh Hefner's mistake. Now we can't pin it all on Hugh Hefner. But I turned to him as, as kind of one of the main architects of the, of the sexual revolution and and more aptly, it's a pornographic revolution, right? I don't want to surrender the word, surrender the word sexual to the enemy. Sexual sexuality is a good word. Remember the enemy doesn't have his own clay, right? God created sexuality. He created us male and female. And he called the two to be fruitful and multiply. Sexuality is a wholly sacred reality. It's gotten all twisted up. Hugh Hefner's mistake was that, that he left the paper, the painting in its crumpled up form and he started reveling in the crumpled up version of the story, right? And he started saying to the modern world, don't you want to look at this? Don't you want some of this? And because most of the culture was puritanical in its approach to sexuality, when Hugh Hefner started saying, hey, you can have this. We jumped in, we we dove head first into this crumpled up version of the story. Here's another metaphor I use, right? We all have this hunger. We all have this yearning, this, this, this desire for love, for union, for affirmation, for beauty, for goodness and the proper name for that longing. The church herself uses this language borrowed from the Greeks. The proper name for that longing is, is eros. We all have this erotic longing for, for, for love, for union, for beauty. But here's the problem. Most of us grow up when it comes to that fundamental hunger. And I, I count myself on this list. Uh Most of us grow up with what I call the starvation diet Gospel, which is basically your hunger is bad. You need to repress all that. But follow all these rules and you'll be a good upstanding Christian citizen. Again, that's a puritanical approach, right? This is not authentic Christianity, authentic Christianity. I learned uh in my twenties, I'm now in my fifties. So this was 30 years ago, I learned from Saint John Paul. The second that Christianity is not a starvation diet. Christianity is an invitation to a wedding feast, a banquet of life giving love. But if you don't know about that, if you think Christianity calls you to starve erotic longing, then you're gonna become a quick convert. As I did in my teenage years, I became a quick convert to what I call the fast food gospel. And the fast food Gospel is the secular culture's promise of immediate gratification for that hunger. And that's what this crumpled up painting is. This is the fast food approach. Hugh Hefner started saying to the modern world, don't you want some of this? Look at these greasy chicken nuggets, you know you're hungry. Come over here, I'll give you what you want. And yeah, don't lie to me. The chicken nuggets taste good going down, especially when you've lived that starvation approach to things. But if that becomes your steady diet, fast food, eventually the grease and the sodium is going to catch up with you, right? And that's a picture of me in my college years, the grease and the sodium caught up with me, so to speak. And I was sick inside and it put me on my knees saying God in heaven, if you exist, you better show me why you gave me all these desires because they're getting me and everybody I know into a hell of a lot of trouble. Do you have a plan? What is your plan for sexual desire? And long story short that put me on a journey that led me to discover Pope John Paul, the second's theology of the body and, and Joey, I find this fascinating. This is all looping around to answer your question, how we got in this mess we got in this mess because we thought the only two choices were starvation or fast food. That's how we got in this mess. And if those are the only two choices, the chicken nuggets are much more appealing than the starvation approach. But here's what I discovered from John Paul the second, as I've already said, Christianity is an invitation to a wedding feast. And I find this absolutely fascinating. Right. At the same time, Hugh Hefner pulled this out of the trash can, this crumpled up paper painting and, and started saying to the modern world, hey, don't you want some of this? This is what you're looking for. Right. At the same time, a young Polish priest named Carol Voila who would many years later become Pope John Paul the second, who would many years after that become Saint John Paul the second. At the very same time, Hugh Hefner pulled this out of the trash can. He also did, he was responding to the puritanical error in the modern world and he pulled this out of the trash can and said to the modern world, you mustn't throw this away. But he did something Hugh Hefner didn't do by reflecting on God's original plan when they were naked without shame. And by reflecting on how the paper got crumpled up in the first place. And more importantly, how Christ came into the world. A a male born of a female, precisely to redeem masculinity and femininity. This young Polish Saints started un crumpling the painting for us so that we could rediscover the original beautiful, wonderful plan of God for making us male and female naked without shame. This is the true sexual revolution. It's the un crumpling of the painting. It's not reveling in the crumpled up version of things like the pornographic revolution, the true revolution, we could call a redemption of the body, a redemption of sexuality. That's the path of Christianity, not repression, redemption. How did we get in this mess? Because we confuse the fast food for the banquet, right? We are hungry. God created us with this hunger and starvation is not gonna cut it. There must be something else. There must be another way, there must be another place to take the hunger. And Christ says, come to me, all you who are hungry, come to me, all you who are thirsty. I will redirect your arrows towards the wedding feast. That's the true path to sexual wholeness. That's the true path to sexual fulfillment. That's the true path to human fulfillment. But when we don't know that true path we fall for when we don't know the banquet, we fall for the fast food. And that's why we're in the mess we're in. Wow, beautiful, incredible. And I think it's so helpful to have that historical foundation. And I remember just at different points in my life when struggling with, you know, pornography and just feeling that emptiness that you described that just getting so sick, feeling like can any good come out of sexuality? Like I truly wrestled with that question because I looked around and saw I'm like, man, this is just so broken and that's the danger, right? There when we indulge in this twisted crumpled up version of the story and we start to feel sick because we've done. So the danger is once again, what do we think this is evil in itself? And we think how can any good come from this? And we throw it away? And that's why I go back. I said the fundamental principle in all of this is the devil doesn't have his own clay. There's nothing that is evil in itself, right? Evil is always the twisting, the distortion of something good and true spirituality. True faith is, is never to throw the evil away. It's to let God come into that evil, to redeem it, to untwist it to restore us redemption. The very word redemption means AAA restoration, right? A restoration of an original good. And when we don't understand, there is a redemption to be had we see the good twisted up and we just think it's evil and we, we toss it away. That's how we got in the mess we're in. Wow. Wow. Wow. And when you say the word restoration, I think of maybe an old piece of furniture that's so valuable that's lost. Maybe some of it's flare its beauty. But if in the right hands of a wood smith like that can be restored, it can be brought back amen to its original beauty. Maybe not exactly as it was, but there can be so much beauty and we can also think of a church being restored right? When it's all the paints chipping, the marble looks horrible. We can take that away and resort back to its original beauty, I think. And I think this is apt uh I think of the Sistine chapel and, and over 500 years, all of the soot from the incense and the candles just caked this dark layer like a a cloud over the original pristine colors of Michael Michelangelo's human figures. And and John Paul, the second ordered this restoration project where these layers and layers of soot and grime were removed. And even art historians were in disbelief at the vividness of the colors because for, for however many hundreds of years, we just saw it covered in soot and we thought Michelangelo was kind of dim and dark in his portrayal. Oh no, no rightness, vividness and, and even more so to just make an apt connection. Uh John Paul the second, also in the restoration project of the Sistine Chapel, ordered the removal of many of the loin cloths that previous Popes had ordered to be painted over Michelangelo's original nudes. John Paul the second said, take them off, why take them off in the name of Christian purity? And then he said in the in when he dedicated the restored Sistine Chapel, he said, Michelangelo allowed himself to be guided by those evocative words of Genesis that the man and his wife were both naked and felt no shame. And then he dedicated the restored Sistine chapel with all these vivid colors in these original nudes. He he dedicated it as the sanctuary of the theology of the human body. Our bodies are not pornographic. Our bodies are the, they reveal the mystery of God. Our bodies are theological. They tell a divine story. They tell the story that God himself is an eternal exchange of life, giving love and we are destined to participate bodily in that exchange of life-giving love. And that's why the enemy hates that beautiful painting. And that's why he wants to twist it up so that we no longer see our bodies as the graphic uh uh uh an image of God. We rather see them as pornographic, an image of, of, of something twisted and distorted and base, incredible, so beautiful. And I remember Jason Everett in his book on John Paul the second talking about something Michelangelo said. I can't remember the exact quote, but please uh jump in if you remember it where I think some of the cardinals and bishops at the time were scandalized by the way, he was depicting the human body just in all its glory without any lo cloth. And I, do you remember the line? He said to them, I, I can, I can recall it but it was something, it was something to the extent of like the body isn't bad and dirty. The world has made it and it's just something bad. And yes, it's, it's the point he was making is that the body itself is not impure, but we are projecting our own impurity onto it. There you go. Right. And Saint Paul says it this way to the pure, all things are pure but to the impure, nothing is pure. And what does that mean to the pure? They're seeing the world as God created it to be. And God looked at everything he made and said, behold, it is very good, right? The only clay that exists is God's clay. All that impurity does. It takes God's clay and twists it up. So when we're coming to put it this way in this crumpled up painting those who are pure can see even in what is impure, this crumpled up version of things what's still in there, Joey, what's still in there? The original pure beautiful plan of God is still within this crumpled paper and those who are pure can see it and tease it out, right? But even for the impure, even when the painting is un crumpled, they're still projecting their own impurity onto it, right? That's what Saint Paul means. When he says to the pure, all things are pure but to the impure. Nothing is pure because they bring the impurity is in the way we see the world. It's not in the things of the world, it's in the way we see it. Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see the mystery of God revealed through the human body, through a tree, through a waterfall, through a sunset, through all of God's creation. We come to see the mystery of God revealed and the pinnacle of God's creation is male and female. He created them and he blessed them and he called the two to become one flesh to be fruitful and multiply. They were naked without shame because in the beginning, they saw the world purely because their erotic longing had not yet been crumpled up and God gave us erotic longing. God gave us arrows to be the very power to love as he loves. In the beginning. Eros, we could put it this way in the beginning before sin, Aros expressed agape. What's agape? Agape is sacrificial divine love. Eros is meant to be the human expression of agape. But with original sin, eros ran out of agape. Aros got cut off from agape and when Eros is cut off from agape, Aros becomes inverted becomes a selfish thing and and the male is now looking at the female and vice versa as an object for my own selfish pleasure. Right? Shame enters the world right here, right? Shame enters the world. When Eros becomes inverted. When Aros gets cut off from agape, shame enters the world and shame is not saying the body is bad. In fact, shame is the recognition that the body is good, but you're looking at it as if it's a thing you're treating me not as a person made in the image of God. You're looking at me as an object for your selfish pleasure and Eve covers herself, not because her body is bad. She covers herself because her body is so good and she knows because of the goodness of her body, she's not meant to be treated as an object for Adam's kicks. Adam covers himself also because the the shame goes both ways. Eve is also looking at Adam now with a a manipulative distorted arrows. But here's the good news of the gospel. Where does Jesus perform his first miracle, Joey at a wedding? And what does he do? Changes water and so on? Why? Ok, we got, we gotta press into this. If we want to find the real cure or what ails us. We gotta press into the first miracle. Running out of wine is a symbol. John Paul the second tells us of of the original sin. What what is wine a symbol of in the Bible? It's a symbol of divine love and divine life poured out for us, right? Running out of wine is a symbol that eros has been cut off from agape. So what does Jesus do? He restores the wine in super abundance? In other words, he restores agape to arrows in super abundance, right? What is the goal of the Christian life? From this perspective? It's to get totally plastered. It's to get totally intoxicated on God's wine, right? Nothing of Christianity will make sense unless we understand it as this invitation uh for arrows to be intoxicated by agape, the commandments will make no sense unless Aros is intoxicated by agape. Nothing. The church teaches about sexuality will make sense unless Aros is intoxicated by agape. This is the first miracle because this is the first result of original sin. The first result of original sin is Aros gets cut off from agape. Aros runs out of wine. So the first miracle has to be the correction of the first consequence of original sin. And that's why the first miracle is the restoration of agape to eros. In other words, the first miracle is the un crumpling of this painting. This is our faith. This is Christianity. Wow, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And I think if people really knew that it's so it's so attractive. And so we really knew this. We wouldn't take our hunger to the fast food. So this brings us back to your original question. How did we get in this mess? And I said we got in this mess because of misdirected desire. We, we thought that the fast food was the answer to our hunger. Well, put it this way, if the content is between starvation and fast food, well, who wins? The fast food will always win. But if the contest is between a banquet and fast food, which one's gonna win the banquet, the bank. Because that's what we're made for. What does Jesus say? Go out into the main streets and invite everyone to starve to death. No, that's not what he says. Go out into the main streets. What does that mean to real human life? Where people feel this hunger? Go out to the hungry people and invite them to a banquet. Invite them to the feast. My brother, you know, and I know that taking our hunger and our thirst to pornography, it's like drinking salt water, right? There's a semblance of OK. My tongue was stuck to the roof of my mouth. I was so parched. I was so thirsty and and there's water in my mouth now and, and now my tongue is loosened from the roof of my mouth. It feels like I'm quenching my thirst, but there's so much salt in that sea water that it's going to, it's going to increase my thirst in such a way that I drink more and more saltwater. And then I kill myself from the levels of sodium in my blood, right? So it's the semblance of satisfaction of my thirst, but I'm actually killing myself, right? You can, you can die from starvation, but you can also die from food poisoning, right? You can die from thirst and you can also die from drinking something that will kill you. We have to take our hunger and our thirst to that, which truly satisfies. And this is why the gospel is good news come all of you who are hungry, come all of you who are thirsty. I will give you bread from heaven. I will give you living water. So good, so good. And I think it's, it's so free too. Just to hear that the desire is not the problem. The twisting of the desire is the problem. And I think it's so interesting to look out in our world, you know, years back. And even to this day, there's this phenomenon of like 50 shades of gray and this whole kind of perversion of sexuality. But I think even underneath that, there's something so good and so beautiful, right? Not in itself all that 50 shades of great stuff. But underneath that, it's like this desire to be loved, to be wanted to be, you know, cared for, to be seen like all that good stuff. It's there, that desire is there. And like you're saying, behind every twisted crumpled up desire, there's something good that got twisted up and crumpled up. And this means there are three choices we have with erotic longing. We think there's only two. We tend to think there's only two indulge it or repress it, right? And if those are the only two options, which one looks more. Holy repress, right? We think repression is the answer to our indulgent. No, no, no, no. There are three choices. Don't indulge, don't repress open to redemption. And here's, here's a visual of what I mean, this is repression. We hold it all in, this is indulgence. We aim that longing at the pleasures of this world, right? And this is redemption where we learn to open those longings to the infinite at its root. Erotic longing is a desire for infinite truth, infinite goodness and infinite beauty, right? That means Aeros as Pope Benedict the 16th tells us eros is man's longing for God, only God is infinite, only God is infinite truth, goodness and beauty, right? And as John Paul, the second says the gospel does not invite us to repress Aeros. The gospel invites us to the fullness of Aeros, which implies the upward impulse, the upward impulse of the human spirit towards the true, the good and the beautiful. So that what is erotic says, John Paul the second also becomes true, good and beautiful. This is the path. Another name for this journey is prayer because prayer is nothing other than holy, the holy expression of arrows. Prayer is nothing other than becoming a longing for God. I like to put it this way. It's an analogy I often use, I like to say God gave us erotic longing to be like the fuel of a rocket that has the power to launch us to the stars, to infinity and beyond, right? But there's an enemy who doesn't want us to reach those stars. And his goal is to invert those rocket engines. That's why so many of us go out into the world. We're, we're looking for love and happiness. But when we launch with inverted rocket engines, it all backfires on us. Christ came into the world not to condemn those with inverted rocket engines. He came into the world to redirect our rocket engines to the stars. Beautiful and so inspiring and so hopeful and shifting gears a little bit. I think when it comes to this idea of like men and women, masculine and femininity. So often the Brokenness that we carry, whether it's sexual or not. But so often the sexual Brokenness we carry is rooted in a broken experience of the masculine or the feminine of men or women. For example, maybe a girl who was abused by her father might throw herself into the arms of men in a, you know, casual hook up just to feel that comfort that being wanted. She might also throw herself into the arms of women because she's scared to death of men and men. Yeah. Absolutely. Which I would totally understand or, or maybe it's understandable. All of our distortions are understandable when we have a sense of what happened to the human heart when we ran out of wine. And you're exactly right, Joey. It goes back to an identity crisis of masculinity and femininity. What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? The original blueprint is Genesis, right? In the beginning, they were naked without shame. And, and here John Paul, the second begins his entire theology of the body with the discussion of the, the the saying of Jesus where Jesus is talking to the Pharisees and the Pharisees say, is it OK for a man to divorce his wife, Moses allowed us to divorce. What do you say, Jesus? And Jesus says, Moses allowed you to divorce your wives because of your hardness of heart. And then he adds, but from the beginning, it was not. So Jesus points us back to the beginning as the blueprint of what it means to be male and female. If we don't go back to the beginning, then our starting point is going to be the crumpled paper. Yeah. Good. Exactly. And you know what? We're gonna conclude, we're gonna conclude that masculinity is toxic in itself. We're gonna conclude that femininity is toxic in itself, right? And we're gonna throw away the painting because we haven't gone back to the beginning. Fall in masculinity and fall in femininity are toxic, twisted, masculinity, twisted femininity are toxic. But we must remember those words of Jesus in the beginning. It was not so. And the good news of the gospel is that Christ came into the world to restore creation to the purity of its origins. This is our hope, this is our hope. And what do we learn about masculinity and femininity in the beginning here, I want to point out two Hebrew words that are used in the book of Genesis that shine a bright light on the authentic meaning of masculinity and femininity. We lose this entirely in the English. But in Genesis chapter one, when it says male and female, he created them, the Hebrew words are Zakar and Neva Zakar and Neva Zakar is Hebrew for male and neeva neqebah, but the B is pronounced with a V sound, Neva Zakar and Neva, he created them Zakar and Niva mean in Hebrew they have a, there's a happy homonym kind of a play on, on the word and Zakar means male, but it also means to remember the deepest identity of the male according to the pattern of genesis is for the male to remember divine love to the female. That is the identity of the male, that is the mission of the male to remember divine love to the female, right? Saint Paul will say this when he says husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church, you must remember divine love. That's your identity. Neva means female in Hebrew. But the happy homonym is that Neva also means to open. Now, notice, look at the male and the female body, the male body has the member that allows him to remember divine love. Uh This is shocking to many people and I'm I'm I'm not trying to be crass at all. I'm trying to reveal the holiness of the original blueprint, right? Do you know where we get the word testicles, Joey, I do not, I can't say I do. The word testicle shares the same root as words like testify, testimony, testament. What is the purpose of the male body? Right? Females don't have testicles, they have ovaries, right? What is the distinctive purpose of the male body? It is to testify to the eternal love of the father. It is to give testament and testimony. It is to remember the love of the Father Zakar. Look at the anatomy of a, a woman's body. She is literally designed by God to open, to receive divine love, to conceive divine love and to bear it forth to the world, right? So the body of the man is designed to remember divine love. The body of the female is designed to open to receive divine love. We see this ultimately fulfilled in Jesus and Mary. What did Jesus say at the last supper to restore masculinity? There were 12 men gathered around him and he said to each and every one of them do this in remembrance, remembrance of me. Do what? Love the bride as I love the bride by saying this is my body given up for you. Well, there is no more mad arrows. Pope Benedict the 16th tells us than the arrows that led Jesus to the marriage bed of the cross. Have you ever seen this depiction of the crucifixion from you? Yes. Yes. So what happened at the cross was the consummation of a marriage Christ is saying to his bride symbolized by the woman at the foot of the cross, right? It's absolutely critical that there's a male on the cross and a female at the foot of the cross. This is the absolute definitive revel revelation of what it means to be male and female. What's he doing? He's remembering the love of the father. What's she doing? She's opening to receive that love. And what happens? She becomes the mother of all the living. What does Jesus say the real man to the real woman? When he remembers the love of the father to her? He testifies to the love of the father. And he says, woman behold your son in reference to the beloved disciple, right? The beloved disciple is the mystical offspring of the mystical marriage happening through the union of the hearts of the New Adam and the New Eve at the marriage bed of the cross. And people think, OK, that's a little weird. Isn't that his mother at the foot of the cross? Yes, in the flesh, she's always his mother. But in the spirit, she symbolizes the church, she symbolizes the bride. It's right in the catechisms of the Catholic church that Mary symbolizes the bride of Christ, right? So this also Zakar and Neva to remember and to open, that's our deepest identity. But sin itself is a direct attack against male and female identity. If the mission of the man is to remember divine love. What's the antithesis of his mission? What's, what's his sin going to be? What, what's the opposite of remembering? Forgetting? He's going to forget who he is. He's gonna forget divine love and he's not gonna be able to give authentic testimony. This is what happens when the man runs out of wine. He forgets divine love. And now that initiation of divine love becomes domination and control of the woman. And if the man forgets, what's the woman gonna do? Her true identity is to open? But if he forgets, what's she gonna do? Close up? And she, if the man forgets, she has to close to protect her own dignity. That's what this crumpled paper is. The crumpled up painting is a car and Neva having forgotten and closed to divine love. Fascinating. So good. Yeah. What's the restoration? How do we hear men must remember? Right? Do this in remembrance of me and how, what enables Mary to be the open one? What enables Mary? The woman, the quintessential woman, the New Eve? What enables her to be forever open? What if she was saying her, her in her magnificat, the Lord has remembered his mercy. It's the fact that God that Christ has remembered that the Lord has remembered that enables her to remain ever open. Even though that takes her right here to the foot of the cross, she still stays open. This is the path for us. This is the redemption of masculinity and femininity. We must all because in a very real sense, we're all first feminine in relation to God because we're creatures, right? We're all the bride in this sense, right? And sometimes that wigs out men. They're like, ah, I don't like that imagery of being the bride. Ok. Choose something else that still puts you in the receptive posture and I'll say Jesus is the quarterback and you guys, you're the wide receiver, right? And what does the wide receiver have to do? He has to get himself open, right? So whatever image works for you just get yourself receptive and open. If we're gonna use the bodily image, that means we're all bride, right? We have to open to receive divine love in order to give it men, we cannot be men, the giving of that divine love, the remembering of the divine love. We can't give it if we haven't first received it. And here Jesus himself is the ultimate model of masculinity. How was he able to remember divine love? Because from eternity, he was open to receiving the love of the father. And so he was able to give it right? We as men, if we are to remember it, we have to open and this means Joey, we have to expose to Jesus all of our twisted up, broken, mucked up pornographic diseased humanity, right? We have the temptation to just bury this like I'm not gonna look at that. I'm not gonna look at it. It's dirty, it's evil. It has to come out into the light. We have to open this to God's mercy so that he can come into it so that it can get un crumpled. Jesus says it this way. He says, make sure these are the words of Christ. Make sure that no part of your body remains in the darkness, bring your whole body. He says into the light and make sure no part of it remains in darkness. This is Luke chapter 11. Uh It might. Yeah, Luke chapter 11, I'm pretty sure bring your whole body into the light and make sure no part of it remains in darkness. And then he says your whole body, your whole body will illuminate you like a burning lamp with its brightness. The problem is we prefer the darkness to the light, right? The only way to healing here is to bring what is dark in you into the light. He will not shame you. He will not scold you, he will not condemn you. He will come into all that is crumpled in you with his healing mercy and you will open up and you will be restored and the grime and the soot and the loin cloths, the fig leaves will come off those paintings and you'll be restored in your splendor. Now, it's not an overnight thing. It's take up your cross daily and follow me in this life. There's always gonna be some amount of leftover grime, right? It's not gonna be pristine in this life, but we gotta take up our cross every day and follow him and we will become more and more the men and women. We are created to be beautiful Chris. Thank you so much. I could talk to you forever. I know we're at the end of our time now, but I just want to make sure if people want to go deeper into all of this. Tell us about your books, your courses, your resources, how can people get those and how can people follow you online? Yes, I am the president of the Theology of the Body Institute and we're based in Pennsylvania, but we are a global mission and our mission is really to lead people on this path of sexual healing and redemption so that they can live a restored life uh so that they can live a redeemed life. Not that we are perfectly redeemed in this life, but we can journey on this path in a much deeper way than most of us realize. So that's why we exist. And we offer courses both online and in a five day in person format. Uh We, we have a very active youtube channel. You can learn about us there. My wife and I have a, an active podcast. It's called The Ask Christopher West show, hosted by Wendy West. And uh we've answered more than 600 questions on that. Podcast over the course of about over 200 episodes. So you can look in the back catalog there and plug in, you can go wherever you listen to podcasts. Uh Just go to theology of the body dot com. That'll take you to our main website. You can learn more about who we are and what we do there. Uh That's the main place to go. Yeah, we'll make sure to link all of that in the show notes too to make it easy for you guys to, to find those resources, Christopher. I wanna give you the last word. What final advice or encouragement would you give to anyone listening right now? Who's really struggling with sexual Brokenness? You are loved as you are, you are loved where you are. You need not be afraid to open up the darkness as it is and as you experience it to the light, but you are loved so much as you are and where you are that the Lord doesn't want to leave you as you are and where you are, he wants to lead you into the banquet and the journey of conversion from the fast food and the starvation approach to the banquet is long. It is arduous. Uh It's not a straight uphill climb. There are setbacks and we fall but you are loved thoroughly in and through it off. Do not be afraid to take all of your desires as you experience them to the one who loves you as you are and where you are and let that love lead you to where you are meant to be. That's the journey knowing we are loved as we are and that, that love will take us where we're meant to be. Wow, that was profound, so much to learn. I love his main point that at the core of our twisted sexual desires are good, true and beautiful desires. And if you want to learn more from Christopher, go ahead and pick up his books at the Theology of the Body Institute or TOB Institute dot org or just click on the links in the show notes. Now, speaking of sexual Brokenness so often at the root of sexual compulsion is trauma, but before you can heal it, you have to stand in our free mini course on trauma titled Why You Feel Broken consists of five short videos by a trauma therapist that answers the questions. What is trauma? What impact does it have on your body? How does it affect your emotions? What does it do to your mind and how does it impact your relationships again? Once you understand what trauma is and how it affects you today, then you can begin to heal and build the life that you long for and so to get the course for free again, it's free. It's really easy. Just go to restored ministry dot com slash broken again. Restored ministry ministry is singular dot com. Slash broken. Sign up for free and begin watching the mini course again. Go to restored ministry dot com slash broken or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them seriously, take like 30 seconds right now to message them this episode and then closing. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And remember the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#103: How Does Your Body and Brain React to Trauma? | Patricia Scott, LPC, PhD Candidate

What happens inside your brain and your body when you endure trauma?

Surprisingly, there’s actually a predictable way that your body and mind responds to trauma. In this episode, we break down each response with a trauma therapist. We also discuss:

• How her parents’ divorce impacted her

• Is healing trauma even possible? If so, what does it take to heal?

• How to apologize the right way

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What happens inside your brain and your body. When you endure trauma, it might surprise you. But there's actually a really predictable way that your body and your mind responds. And in this episode, we'll break that down. We'll break down each reaction with a trauma therapist. We also discuss how her parents' divorce impacted her. We asked the question is healing trauma even possible. And if so what does it take to heal it? We touched on some really interesting facts about human development too. It's really important stuff to know if you want to heal and grow and thrive in life. We even discussed parenting and this stuff is relevant even if you're not a parent or you won't be for the next 10 years and how to apologize the right way and finally share for some encouragement and advice to anyone who feels broken and stuck in life. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host Joey Panelli and this is episode 103. My guest today is Patricia Scott. She is a licensed professional counselor certified in trauma therapy and a phd candidate at Ducane University in counselor education and supervision. She graduated from Franciscan University of Steubenville with her master's degree in Clinical mental Health Counseling and from Argos University with a master's degree in sport and exercise, psychology. Prior to that, she completed her bachelor's degree in psychology, philosophy and theology at Franciscan University. You heard that right? A triple major. She served as an adjunct professor of psychology and social work at Franciscan University and adjunct faculty member at Ducane University. After treating clients as a therapist, she now works on the management side of a counseling practice as the director of data management and analytics. Petty loves to play volleyball, spend time with her family and close friends and most of all play with her nieces. Uh she lives in Boulder Colorado with her dog, Mr Darcy. So Patty is brilliant if you can tell and that's a good friend of mine. I'm just so excited for you to learn from her. Uh In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And so if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this podcast for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, glad you're here. And if you don't believe in God, my challenge to you, is this just listen with an open mind even if you skip or take out the God parts. You're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. And since we recorded this in person too, you might hear her dog in the background. So just be aware of that. Here's our chat, Patricia. Welcome to the show. Thank you or Patty. I might refer to you as Patty. It's really good to have you. I wanted to have you on the show for a while and as we usually do on the show, let's just dive right in. How old were you when your parents separated and divorced? I was a junior in college when it officially happened. And I say officially, I found out my sophomore year of college, my mom had told me that her intention was to wait until my younger brother went to college to divorce my dad. So I knew a whole year ahead of time. So it officially happened once my younger brother was a freshman. So that would be my junior year of college. Was that kind of a burden? It was, it was, um, I was thinking about, I was reflecting on that today and just thinking, you know, what are the reasons I felt like I could have said something. I should have said something and really it comes down to just a few scenarios. Either I tell this important information and things get worse because he didn't know or I tell him he makes an effort or they both make an effort. Things get better or I tell him and I see that he makes no effort and it's heartbreaking. Um But either way I felt like being told that before it happened, put a lot of pressure to build an alliance to my mom because it was this big thing that I was told not to say anything. So having to hold on to that, I think it, it did burden me and pressured me into an alliance that I didn't want to have any alliance. I mean, they're my parents. I love them equally and that's not my information to hold. It's not my information to know. So no, that's difficult. And you know, I could see from your mom's perspective, too kind of want to prepare you. But at the same time, it's yeah, there is a burden to carry around both and the aspect of wanting to inform your dad. But also probably your brother too, knowing that kind of they were waiting for him to kind of move out and that's a lot to carry. So, ok, and I got the impression that I was the only one who was told, I'm not sure. So I'm not sure if I was being told to prepare me for it or if I was being told because she wanted to tell somebody and your child is just not the appropriate person to tell. So true. I'm glad you said that because I think there are a lot of parents listening to who are going through a lot of messiness in their marriages and trying to figure out what to do next. And I think it's important to remember that Children are not meant to be emotional confidants or not meant to kind of fill the role of a spouse or even to become a parent. And it's so easy to do. Like I get why it's done, but it's so damaging, especially when you play that out over years, like ruins, the relationship creates a really unhealthy dynamic and it becomes really sad. I've seen situations where the kids just don't want to talk to the parents at all years later. And it's how sad. It's almost as if every conversation is approached with a new hesitancy because you don't know if this is going to become a conversation about you and dad or you and mom, you just don't know. So it feels like every conversation is all of a sudden unsafe to have because it's so easy because you, you shared a life with these people. This is your family and the simplest of things is not doing the dishes or not doing the preferred way or not cleaning your room. You just never know what can lead to a conversation. Oh, I remember your mom or your dad let you do this and everything can turn so quickly. Yeah. No, I hear you. And we must develop these multiple personalities in the sense that we need to be one person around, like dad, one person around mom, one person around like maybe certain relatives or friends. And it can be really challenging to juggle all that. I know, man, there's so many heartbreaking stories of kids who literally had to juggle their lives between two homes and then everything else that comes along with that like bringing different bags to school and all that good stuff. So it's not good stuff. it's heavy stuff and uh yeah, it's, it's tragic, but I'm glad you said you love your parents because I know, um there's sometimes people get the impression that if you speak honestly about what you've been through that somehow you're putting them down or condemning them or saying that you don't love them. But I, I usually kind of cheekily ask, you know, do you hate your parents? And you already answered the question? And that's, yeah, it's, you know, we love our parents. Um, but in order to, I think to, to heal and grow, we need to be honest about what we've been through and we can do that in a way that still honors them. I am, I think the love I have for them has deepened in a sense because I've seen them, they've become more human and as I've grown older, I understand what it means more to be human and to be fallen. So I think being able to reflect on that each year, not that I make an active effort to reflect on each year but each year, like, you know. Yeah, exactly. There's, you know, it always comes up in some way it comes up or I think about it or a conversation happens and it just, that gets brought up. So, seeing more of their humanness and growing up and understanding nobody is perfect. So still it doesn't invalidate the good things they did. As a parent it doesn't take away or make worse the negative things that happened. It just makes it more human and making it more human is really humbling to see myself progress as a fallen human. So it's almost as if I understand them a little bit better and I not that I sympathize or I have compassion for it. I don't think I ever would and I don't think, I think it's ok to not just seeing it, their humanness helps me grow in love for them. No, that's beautiful and no, I could say, you know, being married and having a baby girl and you know, being a parent, it definitely opens your eyes more to you definitely can understand what your parents were going through. But at the same time, you can still kind of hold that standard up and say like no, what happened was damaging. It was difficult, it was in some cases even wrong. Yeah, you can say both of those things at the same time. So I'm curious how did all that affect you, we talked a little bit about it. But how did that play out in, you know, the years that followed? Honestly, I think there was some of God's grace at work in the timing of it, even though I found out as a sophomore and I didn't want to know that initially, it did make me more angry and anytime I would come home during that year and I was, I was more anxious because I was just waiting to find out that papers had been presented or there have been discussions with lawyers finding things out, just waiting to have this burden lifted from me. I do think there was graces in it though. I think waiting until the last kid was out of the house and in college was a smart choice. So even though you're going to do this monumental, you know, damaging thing, having an appropriate sense of timing or respect for the development of your Children and you know, with the timing of it, I think makes a difference. And so we were out of the house, we didn't have to see what happened. So I didn't, I don't know what happened on a day to day basis. None of us did because even though they were living in the same house and they were going through this divorce, none of the kids were there in the house. Now we all saw what led up to it. So when we heard the divorce, you know, I was like, oh, well, that makes sense. Like finally kind of thing. So I do think there were some graces. I, I can see that I was definitely angry and anxious. I, I think that was more leading up from a sophomore year when I found out it was going to happen to when it actually did happen and then when it did happen, I felt a big sense of relief just not because it was happening, but because I didn't have to hold that information anymore. So after that, I think I more felt a sense of relief and I was curious to know how things would happen. Whose house would I be coming home to for Christmas or Thanksgiving? You know, I didn't know that information yet and it wasn't, it wasn't figured out. So I think having it where I was away at college, it did help and I think that minimized it. I think there was a lot of safety nets there because I had a community. I had my faith. I had things to fall back on. I had school as a significant distraction and that was my vocation at the time. So I would have to really, really think and see like what were the immediate effects of it during that time when it was going on? I mean, the divorce officially, all the paperwork in courts going back and forth just ended this year over a decade later. Oh, my goodness. I didn't know that. Ok. And we're good friends for everyone listening. Yeah, I didn't, I mean, there was, I thought a lot of the stuff was over. So, I mean, the divorce itself was done but then the battles for, am I getting paid enough? You know, like going into those things, you only have so many years. So obviously it's half of the marriage in years. And so that finally is over and that, so all I would hear about is the court battles, blah, blah, blah. So now that's done and I don't have to hear that anymore. So there's a lot of relief in that I'm sure for everyone involved. But I could see especially for you and yeah, no, that sense of relief I think makes a ton of sense. And I've heard that from other people too because I remember one young woman saying, you know, her mom approached her and told her that she wanted to divorce her dad and kind of put her in a weird spot. She didn't know what to say to that. But one thing she knew was she just want the fighting to stop. And so I totally get that sense of relief immediately, especially. Was there anything else that you can kind of tie back to? Yeah, just the breakdown of your family and the divorce and everything that maybe played out years later. I mean, there's some major things I would say that play out later. But they played out in the time they played out during their marriage. So from a younger age, I obviously had a love for our faith. I had a love for theology. I had a love for church teaching. So when I first learned what marriage was learned this, this is great Sacrament. And I remember talking to it about my, with my siblings and my parents. When I say siblings, I don't mean all of them. I mean one sibling in particular just to clarify. So I would talk to about to my older sibling uh because she was also very active in our youth group at the same parish. And so I remember bringing it up to her. I'm like, oh, I just learned about this and she was like, oh yeah, our uh some of this was my mom's second marriage. Her first marriage was Sacramental. It was never an nulled because she felt at that time she was so young. She didn't have a full understanding of it that if it was to be annulled, it would be as if she didn't exist. And so that was her conception of that at the time. Obviously, that's not the case, that's a very harmful thinking and that really should be addressed and it just wasn't addressed in a healthy way. So my parents' marriage was a civil marriage. So as soon as I heard that all I could think was man, I don't want either one of my parents to be in mortal sin. I want them to divorce and knowing that I had, I think I had that thought probably around sixth or seventh grade was the first time I thought that but they should not be married. Like it's not even a sacrament. It's a valid marriage but it's not sacramental. My mom has been living in mortal sin in this and my dad's participating in it as the sin of scandal. I want this to be over and thinking, you know, it doesn't take away any of our identities as kids in a family. It doesn't take away any of that. I just wanted it to be done because I didn't want either one of them to be hurting their soul in that way. And it was very difficult to the only person I tried to articulate that to was my youth minister and my older sister, I never said that to parents. But I do remember feeling that sense of like, oh like, ok. And I remember after that would be like mom, you want to go to confession with me, but you never know if someone's going to realize that level or degree of sin and actually bring that to confession or want to, you know, have that, that cleansing from it. So knowing that it definitely put a different filter on relationships, it put a different filter on what I see marriage being and the intention behind it and having it being sacramental and the value of that as I was growing up more in high school years, not seeing what I would consider a healthy marriage, seeing more fights. I was very hesitant to get into any kind of relationship with people because I thought that's all it was. This is just someone that you fight with regularly and they just can't go anywhere like they have to come back. You know, that's kind of what my conception was of it a little bit like, ok, this is someone you have kids with, you get to fight with them all the time. But I realize as an adult, all I saw was the fighting. I didn't see the resolution. And that's something as an adult, as a therapist. Whenever I talk to people, I said the most important thing in my opinion that you can do as a parent is resolve conflict in front of your kids because so frequently we all learn how to fight. We all learn how to fight fair, we learn how to fight unfair, you know, I mean, we learn how to backstab but we don't learn how to resolve. And that is the most difficult thing. Like we rarely, probably rarely hear how to even properly apologize to someone. And now that's such a big emphasis in my life. Like when I apologize to someone, I have like a specific formula that I follow for even making an apology because it was something I had to really learn to dive into because I never saw that example through my parents. And that was hard, like realizing that like first time in the inkling England 6th, 7th grade, going into high school, seeing it more and then have developing, you know, more deep relationships with friends, seeing the importance of it and then going to their houses and seeing that their parents had such great relationships and they were playful, you know, things like what like what was in their water today, like what is going on here? So seeing that is a big gap in the knowing that something is missing in my life and something is missing in their marriage and it's not healthy, like there's something unhealthy here. So I had to do a lot of observation of other families and other married couples to learn what it is. And through God's Providence when I went back to school at Francisca, and I lived with a family, the most amazing family who they really taught me what it is to be a Catholic family and have a sacramental marriage. I mean, they're, they're beautiful. So I think they kind of were like the positive influence that kind of took away a lot of the negative effects. I mean, it influenced every single influence relationships I had from friendships to romantic interests. It affected everything of not knowing and thinking, ok, this person is just going to fight with me and leave me you know, how long do I have with this person? Because they're probably just going to leave me whether it was a friend or not. And that was, that was a definitely a hard thing to have to think of. Like, how would you enter any sort of relationship? I know I felt the same way. I remember as like a 12, 13, 14 year old, like in the years that followed my parents' separation and later divorce. I was like, I will never get married. Like just like you felt, I was like, if this is where it leads, why in the world would I want to put myself through this? Because it was super painful for me even from the outside. And then I, you know, was able to think through like, well, it must be really painful for them. I don't know what it's like, but it must be really painful. So why would I want to put myself through that? So, yeah, and I love what you said about observing, you know, healthier relationships and how that, you know, it sounds like it gave you hope and it also kind of taught you well, this is what it looks like, this is what it should look like. And I know that was super helpful for me and we've heard that trend a ton on the show and the interviews we've done. So it's really, really beautiful. I want to go back to the apology formula. You got me really intrigued. I know everyone's like ears lit up when you said that. So what is your formula if you're willing to share? Yeah. So and this is not, I don't have the book references. It's upstairs in my library somewhere. So when you are apologizing to someone, you need to acknowledge what it is, you did and you need to name it specifically. So it's not just saying, I'm sorry that you feel bad. I'm sorry that upsets you. Well, what is the that of that statement apologizing for their feelings? And you can't do that? Your feeling, your feelings are your own. I can't control how you, I mean, I can influence and anticipate what your feelings might be through my actions. And so that is part of my responsibility, however, I don't have full responsibility over your emotional reaction. That's yours. So when we apologize to someone, you're like, I'm sorry that made you upset. Ok, great. That's not an apology. The apology is discussing what that is. So when I apologize to someone, I want to make sure that I go over the exact action that I believe I was wrong in doing or was unjust because it's not always something that you're actively doing wrong. I think it sometimes can also be when you're not being just towards another person which could be that you neglected to act or you acted in a way that could potentially be harmful or you're just wrong with something, you know, you could say something that wasn't factual in the heat of a moment and it was inappropriate to say so that I think owning up to the specifics of what it is, you are acknowledging you did wrong then recognizing how either you anticipate or you think not anticipate again, that would be worse. But how you see it affected them. Whether or not your reflection on their reaction to it is accurate or not. That's not the really important thing. It's acknowledging that you, it's a way of seeing them of understanding. Yes, this is, I have been acknowledging what it is. I did wrong. This is how it affected you. At least I could see this is how it affected you. And this is why I really don't want to do that again. You know, you saying something I suppose not say I really, I couldn't stand your shirt and I made a terrible comment about it. Is this an actual statement? Right? I just kidding. No, that's a lovely color. So I might say, you know, Joey, I'm really sorry. I made that comment about your shirt. It was really inappropriate and disrespectful for me to say. And I can imagine how disrespected you may have felt and I don't want you feeling that way because I do respect you and I do care about this relationship and I wouldn't want to have you think that I don't care about you. So I'm really, I'm really sorry that in the heat of the moment I disrespected you in that way and that was wrong and I will do my best to try and not, you know, make a comment like that. So adding a little bit of um and not just saying, I'm sorry, like everyone can say, I'm sorry, not everyone can apologize. An apology is really what repairs a relationship and that's something when I go back to what I said, I heard my parents say, I'm sorry. Tons of times. I don't think I ever heard them apologize. Oh, ok. And so that's something, that's something I had to learn over time. And when I actually started practicing it, it is tough. I don't want anyone listening to this thinking that following the formula that I just did is easy. It is so incredibly difficult. Like I'm getting goose bumps, just think about how difficult it is to do. And there have been many times where it brings me to tears just because you feel the weight of it. It's almost kind of a pseudo confession to someone who's not a priest. You're really acknowledging what it is and taking responsibility and giving that action a name. And when we give something a name, we can take ownership of it and we can do something about it. It gives us a new found power over it. So that's really good. Yeah. It's very difficult to apologize. It's easy to say. I'm sorry. It's difficult to apologize. Yeah. No, that's so good. And, yeah, I think one of the things that I struggle with when it comes to apologies is there's situations where, like I was genuinely trying to do the right thing or I thought I was doing, you know, what would help that person and then there's like, either a misunderstanding or it's seen in like, a bad light and that gets really frustrating. It's like, I don't want to apologize in that moment. Like, no, no, I was actually trying to do the right thing. So that could be tricky. So any advice there for people listening who are, you know, they literally feel like no, no, like I was literally trying to help and I did something that was then perceived as harmful or whatever the thing I think with that it's, we do need to be careful of what we say, the reason you're a what it is you're apologizing for because if you genuinely did not commit an offense, you did not do something wrong. You did not do something unjust, then really what you're doing is is making a comment or having a conversation to repair that relationship because I, I don't think we should start apologizing for things when we didn't do something wrong or when we weren't unjust. So if your action, whether it was because you think you were doing the right thing, if you were genuinely doing something that was correct. And right. And just to do, you don't apologize for doing something. Right. And just, we apologize for doing something that was wrong. So I think having that distinction is really important and that's how we would approach it because it's a different type of conversation. If it's the conversation where you did do something, just, it just didn't turn out the way you wanted and it had a negative impact on them or negative influence on, on the person. That's a conversation of repair and bringing up the intention of this is why I thought this was correct. I can see perhaps I didn't go about it in a way that was going to be positive. And so I can see how maybe I did, I could have approached it differently. And the reason I'm even bringing this up is because I do care so much about you. I wanted to do right by you. I wanted to help you. And so in my perspective, I thought I was doing that. I can see that perhaps I was incorrect. I was wrong in thinking that but again, you're not apologizing for what you did. If you didn't do something unjust, then we don't, we shouldn't apologize for doing something that was correct to do. We can apologize for how we approached it. Perhaps it could have been something that you actually talked to the person about first before you did it or maybe it could have been something that you acted on it out of, you didn't use proper prudence or temperance and you acted too quickly and you didn't reflect on the situation enough. So, in that sense, you can bring that up. I just, I don't personally, I don't think, and that's tough. It's really tough on the receiving end because you want to hear that someone say like I was wrong. But when they think about it too, if you didn't do something unjust and you were not wrong, you should not be apologizing for it because you didn't. There's nothing to apologize for so that it's more a conversation to repair. Yeah. No, that's good. And I think, um yeah, I think that's freeing because, you know, I, I think at times as humans were falling, we can be malicious, we can be nasty. But a lot of times I think there's frustration in relationships where it's like there's just misalignment like you thought the person wanted this, but they actually wanted that and they were kind of put off by you trying to do the first option, you know. So I've definitely seen that play out. I love what you said about the resolution though. And that's something you taught me actually. And that I've tried to live out not perfectly um bridge and I try to do that with Lucy, especially if she sees us, like having some sort of conflict and, you know, beyond just maybe a little bit of a dialogue, like if it's something that, you know, becomes more of a conflict, we want her to know like, hey, we're fine. Like mom and daddy, love each other. We're not, nothing's changing. We're just, you know, we just had a disagreement. We had a little bit of a conflict and trying to explain it and then saying, like, we love each other and being so young right now, uh we try to show that in some sort of a physical way like with a hug or a kiss or something. Yeah. Again, we don't do that 100% of the time. We're not perfect. I don't want to give people an impression. But uh it's definitely been very, very helpful and we've seen that also with her like she lights up when she knows that like everything is ok, like there's peace in the home because it's crazy how little kids like they become very perceptive to those things. And uh and so it's, it's really helpful for so parents listening, it's a great tip. It's something that like you see an immediate effect with. And so it's something you can implement right away. And I think to add on something to another layer, having a resolution or presenting one, it also needs to be developmentally appropriate to the child because if it's not, then it's going to go way over their head and they might not realize that was actually resold. That makes sense, you know, so in the way you display it. I mean, because you can show that to Lucy at, at a young age that she is, you know, you can role play things like even sharing basic things. You wanted a toy, she ripped it from your hands. You guys fight about it and then you have a resolution. You can physically embody that and that's something that will stick because then they will pick up on that. That's the correct behavior. Even if this is something I want and I rip this out. That's not OK. Here's how we resolve that. Whether it is that that gets removed from me and hand it back to whoever or I learn to share better, whatever the case may be, it's not always my dog is snoring in the back. Yeah. So having, having something that's developmentally appropriate as a resolution, I mean, obviously as kids get older, letting them hear those discussions to the point that's appropriate for them and again, to the degree that is appropriate for them just because someone has the capacity to understand the argument and all the, you know, the words that are being said does not mean they should get all the information. So even having resolution be presented because you can, you can go fight in your room, you can have the resolution be done in your room. In private, there needs to be an additional public display that's appropriate for your Children to hear because that's what you're teaching them if they saw the original discriminated. And I think that's, I think that's what's so powerful is that you don't have to do it perfect every time. That's why you don't need to do it in front of them every time you can go resolve it in private. But then when you're ready to come back out, you need to show that there's power in having a public display of a resolution. And I love what you said before too. You just never saw that side of it growing up and then you were exposed in other relationships and you learned it, which is beautiful and that's such a hopeful message to anyone listening right now, especially maybe you're going through your parents' divorce like in the moment and you're just in a like dark tough spot. There's a lot of hope at the end of the road, there's a lot of hope ahead. So keep your head up. Um Even if it is really, really painful and hard right now. So, yeah, I love that so much good stuff there. And like I said, it works. It's, it's really, really helpful and the more you practice, the better you get at it. I mean, even if you're doing it in private and you come out and you do a role play, you will only get better at resolving things and doing it publicly. I mean, there's no downfall to it. Yeah. No, 100% and it is, um, you need humility, kind of going back to that apology. And that's, I think that's the challenging part for me. I know that's pride is easy to, uh, it influences your behavior, actions and if you're not humble then, yeah, it can be just horrible for your relationship and I've certainly struggle with that. But, um, when you are humble it's beautiful and it ends up making the relationship and it's, it's a good reminder to your kids that you're on the same team. Like the team is your family. And even, even greater than that is the priority of the marriage that you two are on the same team as a married couple as parents. And then your whole family is on the same team. So, when we don't have that, I mean, that's something I didn't have. I didn't feel like our family was a team. I didn't feel like my parents were a team. I could play off of them like a fiddle. Not that I don't play the fiddle. Who knows? Maybe I could have. I tried, but I would get a yes from this one and a no from the other. And I would play that all day easily and I knew exactly which scenarios to go to which parent for, to get the answer I wanted because I knew they were not a team. And so that's just, that was definitely a hard thing to learn. And that was something that I could see influence my relationships, even friendships if I had a disagreement. Stonewall. No, it was so much easier just to cut someone out and not try and resolve it because I didn't know how to resolve anything. Yeah. How would you? You never, I mean, some things, I mean, I don't know. I wouldn't call it a supernatural gift. Although, and I don't mean supernatural in like a hero sense. I mean, supernatural is a grace that was given to me. I felt very, very protective of friends. And so even if someone got bullied, I would go and confront the bully and say, hey, that was not ok. What you did, I want you to come apologize. And so I would, I would do that. I started doing that in like fourth grade when bullying became like, you know, more prominent when we get to fourth grade. And so I just hated bullies. And I mean, I certainly, I know there was comments I said that I can think of to this day. I'm like, man, that was really rude. So if I ever came across that person, I probably would apologize for the things, some things I said, oh, even now, but it was just, I learned that it was so much easier to cut someone off instead of doing the hard work and no one wants to know that they're wrong. No one wants to think they're wrong. No one wants to hear they're wrong. We all are very prideful and having a sense of pride is a good thing, but it, obviously it can go too far, too quickly when you're not willing to submit yourself. I mean, especially this is your spouse, you're on the same team, not having the willingness to submit for the sake of your family, for the sake of your marriage, for the sake of Christ. Like for, there's so many things that go into it just for the sake of goodness, you know, for the sake of growing and becoming a better person. I think it's extremely, that's probably one of the most difficult things to actually live out. Yeah. No, I, I can agree with that. Let's stay here for a second because we have some parents or people who will be parents, future parents and they may be wondering, I know, I kind of wonder this. Now you're making me think, what do you do as a parent when kids try to, like, pit you against each other? Because they're so good at it because they're so good. I remember doing that as well as a kid. And so, yeah, what do you do in this situation? Have a game plan going into it? We all know kids are going to do this. Even if, even if you're a great example of a marriage, kids are going to do that because they're not going to be satisfied with a no answer, no kid wants to hear it. Can I have a dessert? No, if you said that I was going to go to mom or dad and I'm going to figure out who's going to say yes. And then I'm going to go to that person to get the answer I want next time. So having a game plan ahead of time and just having the default statement of saying I need to talk to mom about it. I need to talk to dad about it and just doing that and knowing that if that becomes your go to phrase, they will stop asking you, they will stop asking you because they know they can't play that game with you. And even if your kids are doing it now where they're pitting you against each other, you can start doing it. Now, it's going to be an uphill battle. It, it absolutely will, it will get worse before it gets better. And it could be that your spouse gives in more because it is tough. It is tough to maintain a new behavior, especially when you know that behavior is going to be a painful growth. You're gonna have some significant growing pains for your kid, but it will get, it will get better if all of a sudden they realize, ok, every time I have come to you with this, you said I need to talk to mom or I need to talk to dad first and not even giving them an answer. And that's, that's the important thing is not giving them even your preliminary answer. Cut it out completely and say no, I need to go talk to the other parent and then we'll give you an answer. So please don't ask me about it again until I have a chance to talk to mom or dad. That's so important because if you give them a preliminary example or the preliminary answer, they think that that's going to be the final answer. And so they might become even more upset if that's not the final answer. So it's better just to leave that out completely and say nope, I need to talk to mom or dad about it first. So like a scenario I know with Lucy, she's so funny. She has this like motion that she does when she wants ice cream. Like we try not to give her too much ice cream but she like imagine licking ice cream. She does that she goes and that means like I want ice cream. And so one of the mistakes I'm realizing I've made is I say, well, it's ok with me. If it's ok with mom, it would be better to say because then all the pressure is on her and then she'll be actually disappointed, but it's better to say like let's talk. I need to talk to mom. I don't know yet if you can not talk to mom. So OK, let's get him learning. Thank you even saying that, that little piece. He said, I don't know if you can yet because even that statement signals to the kid, it's up to mom. I see because you have just acknowledged that you don't have the answer and that you have to ask mom because mom holds all the power. Ok. Yeah, because then you're basically putting all the power and pressure because then because the kid is going to question, well, why don't, you know, I'm asking you, you're my parent, you know, so obviously depends on the cognitive ability of the kid. But that is something that they will catch on to. I mean, if I'm able to catch on to it in a second now, kids, kids get that so much quicker. I mean, they will believe your behaviors so much faster than they believe your words. I mean, they will just read that for days. So it, it even though it as difficult of a suggestion as it is just not giving any kind of answer and saying I need to talk with mom about it first, then I'll let you know, please don't ask me about it again till then. That's it. I mean, something different in the dynamic of I have my nieces spend the night with me usually once a week and I have done that since I moved here in 2020 which has been amazing. I love being able to give their parents a date night because I think it's so important for spouses to have a designated date night and have it be as routinely as possible. So they have it usually once a week, at least during the school year, it's always once a week and when they're at my house, because I have seen at their house that dessert is such a problem whether they haven't eaten enough to get dessert or they don't get the dessert of the choice or they misbehave. And so dessert is taken away. I mean, it is, I mean, it's just a nightmare. It's like a nuclear bomb just went off in the house. And so in seeing that I was like, nope, that does not fly in my house. I will not put up with it. So we do not do dessert in my house, period at all. They never and so it took a little bit for them to because initially we did and it started off with they would never finish it. So they would insist on having their own. We would get like a little mug cake. So it's like an individual cake. You put the mix in your cup and then you put in the microwave and you just eat a little cake out of your own little personal size mug, but they would never finish it. So I was like, ok, well, I'm not going to try and get you to finish your dessert just for the sake of finishing it. I'm just going to take it away because if you really, all you had was one bite. So you two can either decide to share or we just won't have it. They didn't want to share. So I said, ok, we're just not going to have desserts anymore, then that's fine. So they stopped expecting it and it's never a problem. So now if I give them a dessert, it's like this huge surprise. And so now you can ask my sister this, I think it was two weeks ago when I brought them home, she just sat at the other end of the counter and she goes, so I'm just curious, is there anything that mom and dad can do differently to help you listen to us better because you seem to listen to Peter so, so much better. There's never a problem. You don't throw temper chances for her. What is it? And it was her Aunt Leila's answer was very interesting. She said, well, Peter Rat doesn't give us warnings. She says sometimes when you give us a warning, I get anxious and I think I'm going to make a mistake. And so I get more emotional. If I do make a mistake, this is coming from a seven year old. This is pretty profound stuff for a seven year old to be saying in Lucy, you know, she chimes and she goes, yeah, parent doesn't give us warnings. She just tells us what happened or if we did something wrong we resolve it and we move on like there is no warning, there is a correction and that's it. So, I mean, it is the case when I thought I was like, man, do I ever really good warnings? Like no, actually I, I really don't. And so we don't have issues and so having different set of expectations and being prepared for those, like not simply not having dessert, period. There's no expectation for it. So there's no temper tantrum. There's no emotions around dessert. If you get it, it is a genuine treat. So it's never about you have to finish your food. You don't, you can't merit it at my house. And that seems to help. The master is a little tiny. I know dessert is very, very small, but for little kids, it can be really big deal when you're trying to get them to go to bed. So it's just an easy thing to do. I mean, it's not really easy because obviously if they're so used to it, it, it takes a long time to get out of that habit. But it is possible. I don't even remember where that tangent started. This is good. No, I appreciate you going into this and I'm learning and I know everyone listening is learning too and just to be clear to everyone listening, I do not have Children. I have nieces and nephews and I adore them. So I love being the thing that they get to come hang out with. Yeah. But now you have all your background and studying human development and helping people in that way too. So that's certainly helpful. And no, this is really good stuff. Going back to your story a bit. We were talking about just how your upbringing and what you experienced at home impacted you personally and we got into your relationships. Was there anything else you add about your relationships? Whether it's your friendships, dating relationships that you saw, like, were affected by the, there was this little thing I didn't realize how big of a deal it was until I started dating someone in a very serious way. And I can see a serious future with holding hands. And the, and the reason was I never saw, I think I can count on one hand, the number of times I saw my parents hold hands. Yeah, exactly. And when I think about it, I'm like, man, that's when all the other functions are gone. When you can't be physically intimate with your partner. If you or your spouse, you can't have a conversation with them because maybe you're mentally, not there or you're sick and you can't kiss them. What's the one thing you can still do is hold hands and so never seeing that really growing up, I realized how, I mean, I'm also a physical touch person that's really important to me. So, seeing that that wasn't done and it's such a simple thing. And then when you see like old people holding hands, you're like, oh my gosh, they are just the cutest thing ever. Like you have to ask yourself, what is the reason I'm having that reaction to seeing some strangers hold hands or why do I find it so annoying? When I see a couple at a table who are just like following each other's hands, you're like, ok, guys eat your dinner, you know, but there's something really, I think there's something so powerful about that because I mean, our hands are very, very sensitive and we use them to speak, we use them to do day to day action. So we use, they're so profound. I mean, we wouldn't really be humans without our hands, you know, like obviously there's much more to that statement. This is just a very simple thing, but I didn't realize how important holding hands was until I met someone that I really, really want to spend a future with and thinking man, my favorite thing like when I and don't get to be around you, the one thing that I want to do is hold your hand and it's because I never saw it. And so I, I explained to him, you know, I really think the most important thing to me is to make sure that if we, if we're still together, if we get married, we have kids that we better hold hands, whether you are upset with me or not. If I reach for your hand and you deny holding my hand, like there will be hell fire running down. But I just think there's such importance in holding hands. Like because even if, even if kids are not comfortable hugging or they're not comfortable sitting next to you or they're not comfortable with any kind of physical touch. Generally, they might be ok with holding your hand. Like because it could be a safety thing like crossing the street. So they get used to holding your hand for some reason. So there's so much about holding hands that I think goes understated. Yeah. And I didn't realize that until I was an adult and then when I realized why it was, I realized I didn't see my parents hold hands. Yeah. OK. Now that makes so much sense. It's such a primal thing to I forget if this was in a talk or something. But when we're meeting someone for the first time too, you might have even taught me this. The, the act of like shaking a hand or showing your hands is actually on a subconscious level. Like we did have this conversation many, many years ago. It's like a signal of safety. It's like, oh, they don't have like a weapon again. It's like a primal thing, but they don't have a weapon in their hand. They're not trying to hurt me. They're giving their hand as like an extension of vulnerability and trust And so that makes sense. Why that would be that important to you? That's cool. Anything else that you would add about, kind of the impact on your relationships? I would say the intentionality of approaching relationships. So I'm just now entering into a relationship where I'm like, ok, I'm on my end. I'm like, 1000% positive. This is the person I want to marry and then having that hesitancy of, well, I've met lots of people who were wrong, who may have had that same thought. So how could this be different or how can I better prepare myself? Because, I mean, the last thing I want to do is think of what kind of letter would I write in an annulment to try like annulment process to say that I didn't know or that I wasn't prepared and I don't want to ever be in that position, you know, I mean, it's just, it's interesting because I, I mean, I didn't really know the annulment process until I met someone who had gone through it. And they had to have, they had to write their own witness statement, but they also had to have friends, either the person like the best man or someone at the wedding party or just someone who knew them intimately, they have to write in a statement as well to support that. Let's explain that a little bit for people who don't know what we're talking about. So, I annulment is saying that valid marriage was never, is it valid or sacramental marriage? Sacramental marriage was never created or I don't know what the right term there is. It never, it never take place. And so there was like an appearance, but there was some substance was missing, something was lacking essentially. And that's a longer conversation of like, well, what are the different property or what are the different things that need to be present? That's a separate conversation. But in this context, we're talking about, yeah, when you go through that process, you're essentially trying to explain why you think there were those things that were lacking that did not allow you to enter into a sacramental marriage. So that's what you're talking about when you're writing that statement. Yes. And I can't remember if it was in a movie or if I heard a story about some kind of mobster or gangster or something. I, I remember a story though that each time this person had gotten married that he would write a letter explaining that he really had no intention of being faithful, didn't want to marry this person, but wanted the appearance of it to be a sacramental. So they wrote a letter prior to the sacrament taking place so that when they wanted to get a divorce, they could because they had written this letter beforehand. And so I think that's kind of where I can't remember where this came from. But when I heard of that. I was like, man, it's that easy. It really is the intentionality of it. So I don't ever want to put myself into a position where I have to think back on a time that was positive because I don't think anyone really looks back at their, their wedding in that time of marriage prep thinking I should not get married. I mean, I think there are people and if that's the case, then there is grounds for annulment because obviously that is indicative of some kind of pressure or there was something withholding and not allowing them to express their full free will in that. And obviously, that's a condition for it. But thinking how, how best can I prepare myself for this to know that this is a good decision and not just a good decision, but a real decision, one that has firm grounding like I'm not just standing on sand. And so now like I'm going through a book that says, you know, 100 and one questions before you get engaged. And it's really because you've mentioned how helpful it's been. We've only gone through eight questions and we this has been weeks and the conversations end up being more than an hour multiple times. I've cried just because some of them are really difficult to have to think of because you have to, you're explaining things that you don't want to shed light on. But if you're going to be spending your life with someone. There's a lot of things you need to shed light on and to make sure that, you know, that you are entering in this with a full and free knowledge of someone and that's so difficult and, and I'm not sure that my parents had that at all. And so I think that's something that from seeing an unhealthy example of a marriage thinking how can I prevent that or guard, not prevent it, but guard myself against that. And I think a really good step to guard yourself against that is to do the really hard work before you initially say yes, I'll marry you. I love that. And it's really tough. Like we've only gone through eight questions and it's been like nine hours of us talking and like I said, I mean, it's, it's emotionally really good, but afterwards I feel so much better, like it's just, it's not a weight off my shoulders. It's not as if I'm withholding anything. It's just being intentional about the reason we're asking these questions is because we are discerning if we should get married or not. And so I think it's so important. So what are some examples of the questions just for anyone who's thinking like, yeah, I could really use that in my relationship. Like maybe they're in a dating relationship or maybe they even are engaged and they're trying to, you know, further decide discern is this really the right person for me because that really is what engagement is. It's a time of like further sermon. So I'm just curious. Yeah, what that book is like and what some of the questions are? Yeah, I'll just go through the first question was great because obviously it opens up a space for the further questions. The first question is what makes it easy for you to be vulnerable and open and what makes it difficult? Obviously, that's very intentional is the first question because you want to create a space where you are willing to be vulnerable and open. Because if you're not, then you shouldn't go through this book. Like if you can't create that or they can't provide that or they're not willing to work on providing that, then you've got a problem. Yeah. So if you can't make it through question one, you have got a problem like that's a big red flag right there. If you, if your answer is I'm not willing to be vulnerable in front of you, do not proceed until you, you address that. Um One that was very difficult for me. Uh Was the question, how do you maintain healthy interdependence? So I've been on my own for so long. I can move myself from house to house, all by myself. I can do fixing things around my house all by myself. I can do a budget all by myself. There's so many things that I'm completely capable as a human being to do all by myself and you just have the temperament to just being a very independent person like me, I, I've always, I've always had that. Like, if I see something that needs done, I'm just going to do it and even if I think someone else could help me with it, if I think it's going to take them longer to do it, I'd rather be more efficient and do it myself. So it's very tough to say, ok, how am I going to actually allow this person to enter into my world and me give up something and allow them to do something for me. Even, even like how I put groceries away in the refrigerator, the simple thing, you know, it's something simple or how I fold a towel. I'm so used to doing it the exact way I have done it for so many years. And now I'm going to not only give up that desire for how I've always done it, I'm going to allow someone else to do it for me or they're going to allow me to do something for them. Like the, the humbling aspect of that. I mean, it's even just ironing someone's shirt for them, you know, like everyone's capable, not everyone, I guess, I don't know that for a fact, but many people are capable of ironing their own things but allowing someone else to serve you in that way. And that's something that I think is very profound. I've always wanted and I have a very strong desire to serve others and act like act of service. I think it cannot be understood. I think it's a great thing and it's something we should all practice. Not because it's our love language just because we should do that. We should sacrifice that because it's, it's saying that you're worth my time, you're worth this effort. I think it's extremely important. So this question, I think we, I think we talked about this one question for two hours and I was bawling because I was like, I like, that's one thing I'm so petrified of is that I'm not going to know how to give something up even though I want to, I desperately want your help. I want you to be able to do these things for me because I want to be able to receive that love from you in that way. And it would be great. I'm just afraid that I'm not going to be willing to actually give it up to allow you to do that whether that's my pride or just anxiety popping up because it's something different and I have to get used to it. That was a really tough question. Yeah. No. That makes so much sense that I could see the, this book being a great conversation starter and it gets to the root of, you know, so many of those foundational things that you want to be on the same page. On when it comes to at least to know kind of what to expect moving forward. So, wow, I love that and I could see how that would be super, super helpful. So, anything else before? Yeah, I would say there's one more question, that's a beginning question that was really profound and I didn't limit it. I, when I read this, you'll know that there's a one specific sense of this statement, but I took it in a different direction. Obviously, that's just if there's one direction, I'm always going to go a different one. So what have you learned from previous relationships that will make you a better spouse uh for someone at this time? And so when we hear the word relationship, we're thinking romantic relationships, I didn't take it that way. I thought of how, what's my relationship as being a daughter? What's my relationship as being a sibling? What's my relationship as being a friend? What's my relationship as being, you know, beloved daughter of God? What have I learned from those relationships that make me a better person to make me a better spouse? And that was, I mean, that was tough, like just actually thinking and reflecting on that because I mean, like, yeah, I think it was so great. Yeah, I do, I do think I'm great. I think I'm a wonderful person. I think I'm a worthwhile person. But what has helped me to get there? And it is a very humbling experience to actually reflect on the ways you haven't been a great friend or you have missed opportunities to serve others. And so thinking of that and thinking, how has this made me a better person now, or how is it going to make me a better person in the future as someone's spouse? A tough question? That is a tough question. So good though. I'm glad you brought that up and I think it's an excellent resource for everyone listening, especially people who are entering or in a relationship to help, you know, further discern if this is something that could turn into marriage that could go down that road before we transitioned into talking about trauma. I'm curious, what were a few things, the two or three things that helped you cope with the pain that you were dealing with and also to heal? Like, what were some things that helped you cope and heal? I think first and foremost, not being in the environment. And I can't even say how it helped me because I have no idea what it was like because I wasn't there. But I can anticipate what it might have been like because I can reflect on what our family like was like when I was there. You know, the all the arguments and things like that and unhealthy behaviors and patterns not to say that there weren't some healthy ones too. Of course, there were. But I mean, we're kind of primarily looking at the ones that are more unhealthy. So I think the most powerful thing that was helpful was the fact that I was not physically there. And then I, where I was at college, I had, I had my faith community. I had my friends, I had sports, I had my classes, I had positive things that were actively engaging me instead. So I only had to really think about going home for the major holidays or for break and I imagine things probably would have turned out very, very differently if I had been there, if you were in the midst of it. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Um, and that's something that we recommend from time to time. If things are so intense and toxic at home, it's good to have a breather. It's good to have some space. It can, it can be very, very helpful in terms of, yeah, just helping you not be as emotionally distressed and maybe acting out in different ways trying to deal with the pain that you're experiencing. So I'm right there with you and I think even beyond that, uh, now that I think about it more, but if you really care about your Children, the way that you imagine yourself to care about your Children, if you're going through a divorce and there is no way for them to be physically somewhere else like they're not off to college, they are there making sure that they do have the positive relationships and positive outlets and that you encourage them to maintain their level of participation if not increase it. I think that's something to really think about. Obviously, I, I can't say one way or the other. Um, but I do think that would, I mean, it would only serve to help, you know, to make sure that you're encouraging and not, not limiting it because you're fighting or you're having a bad day. So you're just going to cancel a play date or cancel that sport or cancel that practice. You know, I think encouraging it more and making the effort more to ensure that they have all these, what we call protective factors in their life. Um So maintaining those, if not increasing them for your Children, that makes sense. Was there anything else that was healing for you? It was a long road of healing, you know. Yeah, there's, I would say it all comes for me personally, it all comes back to prayer. And I, during that time, I felt most at peace when I would be able to go to daily mass. I mean, we were very fortunate that the Franciscan University to be able to have three different masses to choose from. Now, it's four, I think masses to choose from on campus. So being able to just offer, I would go first thing in the morning. Um And I did that, I think the majority of the time I would I would go to usually would always for sure. It would always be lent. I would always make sure. Ok. No, this is, I have to go on them but then I would just continue it and it would just kind of just stuck. So then when I got back I'd be like, oh, I would just go anyways. Um, so at that time I hadn't always gone to adoration routinely, but I always went to mass. And so just having that, having that way to start my day and pray the rosary. I mean, I don't, there's no way we can understate that. I mean, it's the source and sum of our, our faith. So allowing yourself to be drawn in and, and knowing that you're not always going to feel good when you go, just the action of choosing to go, even when you feel like a wretch, even when you feel like there's no way that you could even force a smile from your face. Like the greatest effort you're making is getting yourself to get out of bed. You have to remember you by doing that. You're telling yourself more than you think, by choosing to get out of bed, by choosing to maintain your commitments, by choosing to engage in mass to, by choosing to engage in prayer. You are in a very real way telling yourself just how much you are worth it. And so when you had people in your life that maybe weren't telling you you were worth it or that's your perception of it, doing those little things for yourself or you might not be actively telling yourself you're worth it. But you really are in a behavior sense. Ok. Now, that makes sense. And that almost goes further than words for a lot of people at least, which I, which I like, I want to transition into trauma. I don't know, we don't have too much time left, but I'd love to know we've talked about trauma a bit on the show. But I'm curious, uh what's the definition of trauma that you uh for me, the definition of trauma is having something that stresses your resources beyond their capacity. So it could be because trauma can happen. I mean, usually we think of it in a negative sense like post traumatic stress disorder, we think of that, but in a, a lighter sense, it could happen when something really good happens. Like anything that really stresses all of your resources to the point where you do not have the mental, physical emotional resources to continue on at the, you know, maintaining the same level of behavior that you were the same level of competence that you were to me in that sense, it is a trauma. So it could come even from the birth up a new child, that's something that is so gloriously wonderful. But for that short period of time, it can also be very traumatic on us because it is pushing through every single resource you have. And if you don't have additional people to make up for the resources that you're now stressing like family or friends or community, then it can become a problem very quickly. But when you do have those and you're not stretching out every single resource you have till it's bare minimum or its absence, then you're just going to remember that time as, yeah, it was stress when it was hard but it, it was wonderful and I want to have another one. But when you don't have that, your idea is no, like having another one that, that becomes the most difficult thing that you don't want, you want to do. But at the same time, you don't because you know, the stress and the trauma that is going to bring you because your resources are just going to be blood dry again. Ok. That's super interesting. I've never heard anyone that it get a totally different, totally different one, but I think it becomes more applicable to many more things. I wouldn't, I would say my definition. There's definitely some capital t traumas that we would say. But I would say it really acknowledges a lot more of the lower case t traumas that we can experience throughout just day to day life. I'm not saying that it's gonna have a lasting impact, but I would say that I would qualify it as it was one, it does affect you. No, that makes sense. I want to go deep here. What happens inside our bodies, inside our brains when a traumatic event occurs. And I know it's a big conversation. But yeah, let's chip away at it. So, I mean, there's lots of different theories. I mean, essentially we engage in our fight or flight response. And so usually initially, we are startled by something that's the shock of what took place, the event itself and then we can go into our fight or flight and how someone's going to respond to that, it's everyone can be different. And many times we can be shocked, I think by how we react because we can say, you know, well, I always think I, you know, I would be someone who reacts this way if I was given that situation, that might not be the case. You know, it might take you actually being in that scenario to realize how you would respond and it could be completely different than your personality. I found that out the hard way when I had to go through my own trauma, I think, knowing, realizing that I'm a person who's probably going to freeze when everything about my personality, if you met me would tell you that I'm fighting 100%. And so, I mean, that was really even that in itself realizing that and reflecting and I was like, wow, that was in itself very traumatic and very hurtful. Like thinking, I actually for a period of time, thought less of myself because I was like, man, you rose, you didn't fight the way you thought you'd always fight and maybe because you, maybe you weren't capable, who knows? Like I don't, I can't completely say everything to that state, but all I know is that I, I totally froze and that was not, that's not who I am. That in day to day life, that's not who anyone would think I am. And so you learn a lot about yourself. So then after that, the fight or flight, then we have, you know, we, we can go into a freeze and then we have what we consider an altered state of consciousness. So that could be where they, you know, we could think of it as you're in shock or you have an out of body experience as if you are, you know, detached from yourself, watching it happen like you're a witness to it now, um that's a very common thing for people to report happening. And then after that, we, we kind of start to return. And during that also that altered state of consciousness or that out of body experience, you're really not aware or you may not be aware of the physical bodily sensations that are going on. Like you might not feel it like some people who don't realize that their limb was just cut off and they don't feel anything until they actually look at it and then it clicks with their mind that your arm is missing. You should feel extraordinary pain right now and they don't feel it until they actually look and acknowledge it because they're in such an altered state of consciousness that it takes them coming back down. And when they actually are in a place that self repair is the, is the very, what we consider the very end of it. When they start getting into that, they can act. That's when they'll start all the body sensations and thoughts come back and you could be capable of feeling. So between the out of body or the altered state of consciousness and repair, we can go into what we consider just an obedience state. And this, you see a lot with first responders, someone comes to rescue you, they give you directions and you're just going to blindly follow them. But this can be something that is for better or for worse. Uh because it could be someone who is harming you that you're now obedient to because you're just in that you're not fully capable of your own free will in a sense because you're just, you're not in your right mind and that's just a response from it. And until you're in a space where you can be safe, whether that's emotionally or mentally or physically, you're not gonna really get out of that, you're just gonna be listening to the directives that are given to you and God willing, it's going to be through someone who has your best interest and is there to protect you, like someone, you know, officials out of the police or fire department or, um, an EMT. And once you're able to do that, then you can kind of go into the, the self repair. But even the self repair doesn't always mean that it's gonna be positive. It can be something that, and I don't even really want to say negative. It could be something that is life impairing might be a better way of saying it. I mean, we could become more obsessive compulsive with things. I'd say that's probably a very common one. I, I saw that in my own life. That was definitely the path that my trauma took. I mean, it could be with how we eat, it could be with how we exercise. It could be with different addictions. I mean, usually it's very behavioral. That's, that is the one theme of the self is that if it's going to become an issue in how you live your life, it's going to usually come out in the behavior of some kind. And for me, it was definitely the obsessive compulsive of needing everything to be within my control because I wasn't in control and I had a sense of obeying someone that I did not want to because I froze because I wasn't able to fight or fight. And some of that and some of that, when you, when we say fight or flight, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm physically fighting you or that I'm physically, you know, it could be that you're stuck and you freeze because you are physically not able to fight. I mean, and that's a very real thing that people need to acknowledge that sometimes we physically cannot fight and we physically cannot flee. And so our body just start, we just go into a freeze kind of state. So when we come out of it, our self repair could be that we are now in need of absolute control over every single piece of our life. And for me that could have, that came down to how I clean. It came down to how I organize things. It came down to how I put away silverware, it came down to how I fold things, how I organize my closet, everything had to be absolutely perfect. And if it wasn't, then I would get extremely frustrated and I would be easily become angry. Yeah. Um And I usually wouldn't be angry at myself like it would show up in some other relationship, like I would get set off by something little. But it's really because I couldn't keep this, this one thing to be exactly the way I wanted it to. It makes so much sense. And now I like how you said, the self repair is really just a way to kind of feel some level of normalcy back in your life or to get yourself out of a maybe super anxious or super depressive state, like an emotional equilibrium, which makes sense. And there's some really unhealthy behavior that actually does that. And so that's what you're saying, that it serves a purpose. We don't want to continue down that road, but it's there for a reason. And that's often what kind of brings us back to that. And you might not even recognize it. Like a lot of people with mine didn't recognize the obsessive and compulsive behaviors that I was doing. They just thought I was super organized and super on top of my life, like, like type a personality and really, no, my personality is, yes, I'm a very organized person. I prefer to have my life organized. I prefer to anticipate my day to day. Like, I prefer to anticipate three months from now, to be honest. But I can allow to have dishes pile up. I mean, usually not very much because I don't, I have a routine and a habit that I generally don't let that happen or I could go a day where I don't make my bed even though generally I usually do every morning. So it could be things that we see as good behaviors or good traits or things, you know, sense of perfection that we want. But it, it's, it's unhealthy because it was impairing my life that it was affecting how I saw the world. It was affecting how I was able to interact with other people because I couldn't do it. And that's, that's the thing to watch out for, for people. OK. That's good. All right. I want to explain and kind of this whole model one more time and we can use me as a guinea pig. OK. So, so I remember when my mom uh I talk about this sometimes on the show. So forgive me if this is repetitive for some of you listening. But I remember when my mom broke the news that they were, my parents were getting divorced, I was 11 and it was so shocking, like it literally shattered my world. It was really difficult to hear and all. Yeah, I remember that that sensation of like being startled, like kind of looking in disbelief at my mom. Like is this real, is this like actually happening? And then having the reaction of just like crying and, and feeling really angry kind of simultaneously? And so all I could do in that moment was flee. Actually, I remember, yeah, just going hiding in the closet to where like no one could find me. And I was just like kind of suddenly sobbing and just like really, really, really angry. Yeah, kind of like that. Maybe I don't know if that at that point, I was having the psychotic body experience, but I can see how these stages play out. So with that example, if you would kind of explain the model again to make it a little bit more concrete. Yeah. So in, in, in just hearing what you said, so obviously, the startle is very obvious when you hear the news and your fight or flight was very obvious when you said you went into a closet and you started crying with it. Um So the altered state of consciousness would come in or how we would in within this model describe based on the details, solely the details that you gave me. The question is this real that going through your mind and having that doubt and that would be considered for this model and altered state of consciousness that in in this therapeutic approach, we would address that would be what we used for the alternate of conscious. Is that just sense of gosh, how could this be real? How could this be my real life like that is alter state of conscious? Doesn't mean you have to be like hallucinating, you know, it doesn't have to mean anything like that. It could just be that, that sense of doubting the reality of the situation in a very simple way that makes sense. Now, for the sense of automatic obedience and the self repair, based on the details of the story provided, I wouldn't be able to say that this was, you know what that was what was going on. I imagine though that some of the body sensations or the attempt to self repair for you. If you were putting yourself in a closet away from other people crying, you probably, or may have very well had your arms wrapped around your knees rocking yourself as a way of attempting to comfort yourself within the tears. Yeah, that's what it was for sure. That's, that's something that we in an attempt. If you always grew up knowing that was a pattern of comfort for something that brought you comfort, then that very well could have been the self repair that you were attempting to self soothe. It may not have been what actually brought the repair and usually it isn't because it's, it can happen in a very all these things can happen in the span of five minutes or they could happen in the span of five years. We just never, you never know like someone could be um like there's people who are all of a sudden in a clinical sense they have are presenting with schizophrenia when really that's just an altered state of consciousness. And once the trauma is resolved, the schizophrenia may very well go away or diminish to a significant degree where it's no longer clinical, like clinically impairing their life. And schizophrenia again, just for this thing where you're going to be having disorganized thoughts, you might not even be able to string a sentence together in a way that's cognizant to other people. You probably will have either audio visual hallucinations, you may smell things that aren't there. You may have delusions, either of gran or you may think you're Jesus Christ, you may think that everyone is out to get you different things. So it's definitely you are out of touch with reality. I see kind of a break from reality. That makes sense, right? Which is why that would fall in some people who are just in an altered state of consciousness from a significant trauma may present with schizophrenia. Hm. Wow. Ok. I didn't know that that's profound and yeah, and that makes sense with the example I gave how maybe not all the stages are in there. But if I were to continue telling this story, I know for me, one of the things that I fell into which I've shared openly in this show was, um, yeah, pornography became kind of a self repair because it was a distraction. It was something that was brought relief. It brought pleasure, obviously, it brought, yeah, just kind of a way to like emotionally regulate. And so I can, I totally see that as an attempt to self repair as well. But yeah, I don't, I guess the obedience thing I didn't see as much or I'm having a hard time like putting my head around that one. It might not be that every single one of these the phases might not be present in every trauma, right? Or you might not even be able to identify them. You simply we don't always know. That makes sense. I can say I had kind of some weird situations where I've pulled up on like car accidents for some reason, like a good amount of them and try to help the people, like hop out and help. And in those moments you can tell, like people are like kind of during the headlights sort of look that startle and then yeah, they'll do anything you tell them at that point, like if you tell them to like, stop, if you tell them to get out, like whatever, it's, it is profound. So you can clearly see that like anyone who's ever been in that situation or maybe you've seen it on TV or something, you can see how, yeah, that obedience kicks in and hopefully it's with a person, like you said, who's trustworthy because then that's a really good thing. I doubt you could talk to any firefighter EMT or police officer that has not experienced that during, you know, approaching, um, some traumatic experience that someone is going through. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. Anything else you doubt about the motto in terms of the phase, the phase in itself? No, it is a very, I would say it's a difficult model to go through. Uh So part of the premise is that it's not just discussing these different phases. So what we would have someone do is draw them out and that can be extremely difficult. I mean, not that it can be, it will be, it will be very difficult to do this. However, I have seen people who I had a client who every single minute of every single day was scheduled because she presented, she had sexual trauma for when she was less than two years old and she presented with significant O CD. And so to the point where she wouldn't even allow herself to go to the bathroom until it was time on her schedule for her to go to the bathroom. And so her day was so rigid because she lacked so much control in her life. And that's just how it presented. So it was extremely difficult. And I worked with her for a couple of years and we went through and by the grace of God, she was willing to give this a try no matter how difficult it was. And we went through and she drew out these different stages for different traumas. Then we put them up on a board and I retell the story back to them, but we tell it in a way that usually you put something over their eyes so that they can focus with just one eye. And so that that will help them see it in a different it, it changes your perspective. So it alters the way our brain takes in that information by kind of providing almost like a tunnel vision of it. And so it also provides detachment because when you look through a telescope, things can look, they look far away. They're not, they're not completely present to you. So it's you're telling the story back so that I'm an audience to my own story now. And by doing that, it allows us to close the story because generally what we're seeing is that these different mental health disorders are presenting because that story was not resolved. So when we're, when we're able to start a story and end the story or the trauma, we're able to resolve it mentally and they can file that away and put it away and not have to bring it back out unless they willingly want to and then they can move on with their life. And so this was, this was someone who from every minute being scheduled to not having to schedule anything and living her life freely being able to engage in relationships. I mean, it was a significant transformation but it was extremely hard. I mean, there were some days where even I didn't want to go through working through the therapy with her because it was, I could see it was such a struggle for her. But I also I didn't want to see it's not pleasant content, you know, asking someone to draw out some of the most disgusting things about human behavior and human corruption. It's tough. I mean, it's excruciating. Yeah, but knowing that it's also extremely humbling that this person trusted me so much to help them change their own life and to share their story. I mean, it's, it's, I think I'm one of the most humbling things to be a trauma therapist, I bet. Yeah. Wow. Profound. And that was my next question. Actually, some people I think, feel that healing isn't even possible that the hand they've been dealt in life is just what they have to deal with. They have to carry, carry on. They have to do the best they can that there's no way to really improve. It's just kind of get through survive and, and I get that, I get that feeling. But yeah, is it possible? I mean, you just said it is absolutely, it's not easy. It's possible. It is not easy for some, it will be easier than others. I think as long as you are seeing yourself as a victim and only a victim and you're putting yourself in that box or you're putting yourself in a box of just simply being a survivor when you make it too simple. But it's on the more negative side, you will struggle more significantly to improve or to get healthy again if you remove that and you allow yourself to see that. Yes, this happened to me. It does not define me. It is not happening again to me right now. And so I have today to make different choices and to make a different life for myself when you start that process. And you're open to it and you're willing to add a different adjective to your character or your identity that's not victim. And that's not simply Survivor. You open yourself to such a wide range of choices. And I think people, and it's scary. It's also, I mean, because in a sense you're shedding that, that old identity and that can be very scary for people to do because that's all you've known. That's all you in that sense of survival. That's all you've had to cling to, to just make it from day to day. But when we're willing and I'm not saying this is an overnight process or it's like a statement you make one minute and you're like at 12 o'clock, I'm no longer a survivor. 12 01. I'm moving forward with my life. This is something that happens over a year. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, there's no, there's no magic timeline and that, I think that is something that's most difficult for people to know that. And some people can do this on their own. I mean, I did not, I've been trained as a therapist. I did not go through therapy myself. And so in that sense, it took me many, many more years than it could have and I completely acknowledge that. But it was really my pride that was not willing to, I was not willing to humble myself. And so now that's what makes it so much more profound when people are willing to humble themselves to me because I'm like, wow, these people are superheroes like they are doing something that I was not even willing to do or that I could not bring myself to do. That's amazing. Yeah. So I think, I think healing is possible, moving forward is possible. It's extremely difficult work and it has to start with a decision to put 1 ft in front of the other and having a willingness to walk away from a past identity and find and forge a new one. Honestly, you have to forge a new one and realize that. I mean, I think you're a great person. I think you're a wonderful man and I would tell everyone. Oh, yeah, he's one of the best men I know. Like you guys really get to know Joey. Like he's so great. Like, but if I was to learn something about you at this point in time about your past that I didn't know it could be something that you did. That was terrible. It could be something that was terrible that happened to you. It could be something that was great. All I'm doing is learning new information about you. It doesn't change who you are, doesn't change what I think of you. I'm simply learning new information that I didn't have, but that goes into who you are today, but it's not you. It's something about you, but it's not you. And that's an extremely difficult thing to move forward from and, and, and I'm saying that from experience is that for a long time, I mean, I thought of myself as you know, I'm going to be in this box. I'm not, there's nothing I can do about it. And then I realized that I'm focusing on the wrong thing. Like, yes, this something happened to me, it was difficult, but there's so many other things in the world that I could do. I could choose, choose to go bowling to take bowling lessons and become a better bowler like something so simple, but it would help me improve myself and it would give me hope that I can get better. Like it doesn't have to start out with, with your emotional or psychological health. It could start off with something as simple as trying a new skill and just seeing yourself get better and seeing yourself dedicate that time. You're again, you're telling yourself that you're worth it. You're telling yourself that you can improve. You're telling yourself there is hope for something to get better and that you can take a pile of nothing or a pile of not so great things for not wanting to use other terms. But you're telling yourself that you, you can make yourself clean again, you can and if not, and if not clean again, you can tie dye yourself to be different and present. You know, you become renewed in that sense. And so in that sense, you are still cleaning for a bit. So, but it is tough. I won't lie. It is extremely difficult and it takes time and I think that's why most people don't do it. It's like those barriers that prevent them from doing it. But no, I've been through the therapy actually. And it is very helpful and I had worked through a lot of it on my own or with different therapists, not using that model. but going through it is very, very helpful. It opened my eyes to things that I never even saw that were there the whole time. And I was like, wow, that's like affecting me on a daily basis. But yeah, it's crazy how we kind of continue living out those stories even though they are years in the past. But like they feel in the moment like they're present, it's wild and so super, super helpful. I, I love how you mentioned like the whole victim mentality because that's something that's such a hot topic right now. And I think there's an important distinction that I just wanted to mention for everyone. There are like real victims. And I know you would agree with this victims of, you know, circumstances like they're in a situation and they're victimized and that's horrible and they deserve help. And there's a reason that they feel victimized. There's a reason that they are a victim and you know, you need to move through that and you need to grieve you need to do all that stuff, but you're not meant to remain a victim. And that's what I think is so toxic and so harmful in our culture right now. Is that so many people? I think all of us in one degree or another fall into this choose to remain victims. We choose to put ourselves in that box and then therefore we feel stuck, we can't heal, we can't grow or we feel we can't heal. We feel we can't grow and we're like unable to everything. We feel powerless. We maybe point at other people for our problems. And by definition, then if we're pointing at them for our problems, they must have the solution or so we think therefore, I can't do anything myself. And so one of the things I challenge the young people I mentor is OK, you might not have caused the problem, but you can take ownership of the solution and you can implement that in your life and you can grow beyond this. And so that whole idea of post traumatic growth is so real. And I've seen it like I'm preparing to talk right now on this topic and it's not fully ready. So I won't give you guys it. But there's insane stories of people. There's this one marine who um learned his story and he, I think Rob Jones is his name. If I'm getting that right. He fought in Afghanistan and Iraq and he was an expert at spotting roadside bombs, IE Ds and while he was sweeping for bombs at one point so his teams could like move through. Um he stepped on a bomb and it went off and he lost both his legs like he had to get him amputated above his knees. And for most people, like, you know, rightly so that is traumatizing. He is very much so a victim, but he just refused to remain a victim. And so what he did is he got into like the Paralympic Games and got like a bronze medal on the world stage. He was the first double amputee to ride across the country on a bike. He went through if I'm getting the numbers, right. He ran 31 marathons in 31 days in 31 different cities. Like it's profound. So I think people like that. It's incredible to look at and see, wow, maybe you don't need to go run 31 marathons without any legs. It's amazing. But certainly you can, you know, do other things that are going to help you to heal and to grow and to kind of push through that. So it's, it's amazing to see that, you know, we don't have to remain victims and maybe we were victims, but we don't have to remain victims. I would add one more thing to that. So when I also say victim, being a victim can be a state of fact, right? Maintaining a victim mentality is what is so harmful. If we think of Max Milling Colby, he was a victim. He certainly did not have a victim mentality. He maintained his ability to serve others and not despair. He could have chosen differently, but he didn't, but he was a victim. But he did not maintain the victim mentality. And the victim mentality is when you combine the two of them, that is what becomes so harmful. That makes sense. And the story we're talking about Max Mill and Kobe, the quick version is he was a Polish priest who was locked up in a Nazi concentration camp in Auschwitz. And one night, some prisoners escaped. And the Nazis being who they were chose to I think kill 10 men if I'm remembering the story right, randomly as a punishment for those men escaping. And there was one man uh French France, Francis guy, I think his name. And anyway, he had a family, he had a wife, he had Children and he was just like broke down crying that he was going to be killed. And so Maxim and Kobe, this priest who again, very much so a victim by circumstance, he actually stepped out of line, which in itself was just like incredibly brave thing to do because they could have just killed him on the spot. He stepped out of line to offer his life in exchange. And the Nazi officers were so shocked by this that they actually honored his wish they didn't kill the guy who they could have, they could have just said, oh, you want to die? Ok, great. We're gonna do 11 instead of 10. Um They actually allowed that other man to not be killed and he actually got out of the concentration camp years later and was able to reunite with his family on some level. And um and then Max Million was killed. And so it's a profound story of like going rising above that, you know, victim circumstance and escaping and overcoming the victim mentality. So it's a beautiful story as well. Patty, thank you so much for coming on the show. I want to do this. Yeah. And it's been a long time coming and I want to give you the final word. What words of encouragement would you give to someone who, who feels broken, who feels stuck in life because of everything they've been through, especially if their parents got divorced or there's slaughter dysfunction at home, what encouragement would you give them? And the task is not knowing what to say. It's annoying. Which one you know to go go to. I would say you, you are worth it. So the boundaries that you want to set up for yourself, your healthy boundaries with your parents, with your family, they are worth it and they do need to be protected. And in the sense that I say that I very early on told my parents that I was not to be a go between that I was not going to say, oh, tell them this or tell them they owe me this or bring them this paperwork. Shutting that down. You are worth that as difficult as it is to tell that to a parent, you are worth it and you will be better for doing it, not allowing your parent to or both of them could be one could be both to not talk negatively about the other one in your presence, whether it's directly to you or to one of their friends or to a stranger, putting your foot down for those things because you don't want that to happen. You are worth it. So those healthy, healthy boundaries for you to have put your foot down as strong as you can and, and voice, you don't even have to voice your concern. You just say no, you need to stop doing this because it's not OK. I will not allow it. You are worth it. So many great lessons from Patty's expertise in her story. And if you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neural biological level. It makes your brain healthier and writing your story also is healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier. And also it gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling too. So how do you do? It? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash story. There's a form on that page that guide you in telling a short version of your story and then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. And so go ahead and share your story now at restored ministry dot com slash story, as discussed in the interview, one tactic to heal is actually find someone who can guide you. That's where a counselor coach or spiritual director can come in. But often it's difficult and time consuming to find someone like that. Thankfully, at Restored, we're building a network of counselors and coaches and spiritual directors that we vet that we trust that we recommend. And by using our network, it's just going to save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor coach or spiritual director. You also find a competent professional that we, again, we've vetted, we trust and recommend. And so how do you make use of that? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. Fill out the form. It should take about 60 seconds and then we'll contact you once we find a counselor coach or spiritual director, uh, that we recommend at the moment we're still building this list. Uh So if you want to jump on the waitlist, I invite you to go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. But you might be listening to this at a later date and so it might be fully ready at that point again, go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them seriously, It takes about 30 seconds to just message them this episode or another episode that you think would be helpful for them. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#102: Healing Sexual Brokenness: Your Sexual Brokenness Isn’t Random | Jay Stringer

What if I told you that your sexual struggles could be predicted by your untreated trauma?

Today, we’re joined by author Jay Stringer who studied ~4,000 men and women who struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction, such porn, masturbation, affairs, buying sex, and much more. 

In this episode, we breakdown his NEW study and more:

• How the sexual fantasies and porn searches of the study participants could be predicted by their untreated trauma

• Why we often repeat behavior that harmed us, such as sexual abuse or affairs, and how to avoid that

• How anger actually drives unwanted sexual behavior

• Why people from rigid or disengaged families are much more likely to struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction

• How in order to break free, you have to listen to your lust and understand why you struggle in the particular ways that you do

• Why typical lust management strategies like accountability software are not enough

Whether you struggle with sexual brokenness or know someone who does, this episode will help anyone find healing and lasting freedom from sexual brokenness.

Buy Jay’s Book: Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing

Get FREE Unwanted Chapters

Get FREE Mini-Course: Why You Feel Broken

Links & Resources

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• Jay Stringer

  • Website

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• Books

  • The Body Keeps the Score | Bessel van der Kolk M.D.

  • The Myth of Normal | Gabor Maté MD

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What if I told you that your sexual struggles could actually be predicted by the untreated trauma that you've endured in your life. Would you want to know more about that? If so this episode is for you, that insight actually comes from the book, unwanted. How sexual Brokenness reveals our way to healing in which the author says this. He says, I'm asking you to consider the possibility that your sexual struggle is not random. Today, I speak to that author, Jay Stringer who studied almost 4000 men and women who struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction such as porn, masturbation affairs, buying sex. And more in this episode, we break down that new study and more like I mentioned, we talk about how the sexual fantasies and porn searches of the study participants could actually be predicted by the untreated trauma they endured. Why we often repeat behavior that harmed us such as sexual abuse or affairs and how you can avoid that. How anger actually drives unwanted sexual behavior. Really, really interesting stuff. Why people from rigid or disengaged families are much more likely to struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction. How in order to break free. You have to listen to your lust and understand why you struggle in the particular ways that you do. And finally why typical lust management strategies like accountability software are actually not enough, whether you struggle with sexual Brokenness or you know, someone who does this episode will help anyone find healing and lasting freedom from sexual Brokenness. So keep listening, welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 102. This episode is actually part four of our series called Healing Sexual Brokenness on the show. You know that we feature stories and expert interviews about how to heal from the trauma of your parents', divorce and broken family or how to navigate the pain and the problems that stem from it. One of the biggest problems that often stems from your family's breakdown is unwanted sexual behavior like pornography, masturbation, hookup, culture, paying for sex and fidelity and so much more. In fact, one expert found that almost 90% of those who struggle with sexual addiction come from a broken family. In this series, you'll get tactics and resources to overcome unwanted sexual behavior so you can find freedom, little trigger warning. This is obviously a mature topic. So we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around Children with that. My guest today is Jay Stringer. Stringer is best known for helping both men and women find freedom from sexual Brokenness and pursue the life. They truly desire a licensed mental health counselor, an ordained minister and an acclaimed international speaker. Jay provides a safe and supportive environment for individuals seeking to address unwanted sexual behavior. Now, based in New York City, Jay has spent more than a decade at the forefront of combating the demand for sexual exploitation and porn geography. Through his clinical work, he offers a comprehensive understanding of the origins of sexual Brokenness, shedding light on the factors that sustain these struggles. Jay's award winning book, Unwanted is the culmination of an extensive research project that delves into the stories of 3800 men and women. That book has sold more than 100,000 copies and has widely been embraced by counselors, churches and small groups globally affirming its impact and relevance. I'm so excited for you to learn from Jay. So here's our conversation, Jay. Welcome to the show, Joe. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here starting out. I just want to say you are the freaking man. I just love everything you're doing. I have so much respect and admiration for you. I found your content so helpful. So thank you so much. I look up to you a lot. I'm honored to have you here. Thank you for reading the book and sharing it with others. So I have so many questions for you and uh so we'll just go, go at them. But uh starting out, I'm just curious, what do you care about, about this so much? Why do you care about this problem? Why do you care about people who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior? You know, one of the first stories that comes to mind is, uh I went through graduate school, got my master's in counseling psychology when I was probably in my mid twenties. And my grandfather whose name was Elmer died when I was about 25 26 years old. And I went to his funeral in sort of the North Florida area. And I remember being in his funeral and not sure if you've ever had this sense, but like the sadness that I felt was not so much that he had passed away, but far more the reality that I never knew this man in his life. Like we knew some of the cover stories, some of the big stories of his life, the headline stories, but we never really, I never really knew uh the man. And so I remember flying back across the country from Florida, back to Seattle where I was in grad school at the time and just having this kind of inner defiance rise up within me of, I need to understand my, my story, I need to understand who these major characters are and I need to get to know my grandmother. So the first one up on that docket was my grandmother, Dorothy, who was my dad's mom. And uh you know, long story I could share about her, but I always referred to her as just like a cold steel door of emotion. Like I have a memory of being eight years old. And she had called our house middle of January. And she had said, uh, you know, are your parents there? I said no. And I said, can I take a message for them? And she said, yeah, if you could just let your parents know that I was quite disappointed by what your family gave me for Christmas this year. I don't know, she's probably in her mid seventies or something at that point. And I'm like, I'm not even allowed to say that. Um And so that was the challenge with Dorothy. But I took her out to a cafe on her 90th birthday, went and got the skeleton keys that I wanted to represent the era of her birth year. So they were keys from like 1916, 17, 18, somewhere in that range, took her out to a cafe. I gave her these keys and I said, grandma, these three keys symbolize three lunches that I wanna take you out to, to learn more about your life. And you know, most grandmothers would be deeply touched by an expression like that. But my grandmother was horrified and five seconds passes, 10 seconds passes she says nothing. Uh eventually she looks back up at me and passes the box back across the table and says, Jay, there are some doors you just don't open. There are some stories you just don't tell. And that was probably what sealed the deal for me to become a psychotherapist is, you know, there are stories that so many of us have that we are too ashamed to tell and then you get closer to those stories and that's where shame defensiveness, blame really begin to rise. And so I think that was really the beginning of i it's not just me that has a story of secrecy and silence and judgment, not just my father, probably not just my grandmother, but many generations. And so part of what we found out about my grandmother was she was likely sexually assaulted by a family member sometime in her mid teens. And that was a story that she was never able to share with any of her friends with any of the religious communities that she was part of. And I've wondered so much since that day, you know, how her life, how my father's life, how my life would have been different if she had had a context to share some of the sexual stories that she was part of in life. And so I think, you know, I have my own history with pornography use and struggles. Uh But I think far more than that, it's a sense of like this is the story that shame narrates in our life has an impact over many, many generations. And again, just that inner sense of defiance of, I don't want sexual shame and stigma to have the last word in an individual's life. Much less many generations from now. So that was kind of the impetus to write. The book is as a therapist, seeing a lot of people struggling with infidelity pornography use and yet most of the resources that were out there were kind of like lust or symptom management of kind of bounce your eyes, put some internet monitoring on your computer or try and just militantly fight it or on the other side would just be like this is just a common issue that everybody faces. So don't try too hard to fight it because it's completely normal. And so I think just that sense of either lust management or just shame management. Those are the two primary ways that I, I see society trying to address these problems. And so that was the decision that I had to do some research of like, what could we find out about the key drivers that are influencing people to use these behaviors and pursue these choices rather than just stigmatizing or normalizing them. So good. And thanks for sharing. So vulnerably. Yeah, I I'm so excited to get into the study. So you studied a little under four 1000 men and women who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior. He also did a bunch of robust data analysis on those findings if you would break down that study and how it was done. Uh So we, we designed a research instrument that basically looked at, you know, we looked at attachment theory like what was people's attachment like to their mothers and fathers? Were their family systems very rigid, disengaged or very emotionally enmeshed. And then we looked at what are called adverse childhood experiences. And those are the kind of the big tea and little tea traumas that we all go through anything from bullying to sexual abuse to kind of uh issues of abandonment and neglect. And then we looked at what were people dealing with in the present? From depression anxiety, uh a lack of purpose in their life and all of that has kind of been researched before. But the really fascinating and slightly maybe even intrusive thing that we did was we asked people to share, not just do they look, get porn, but what are the things that they go to the internet for? Like, what are the search terms? And so several of the major porn sites would publish, you know, the top 10, top 20 search board terms on the internet in terms of porn. So we took, I believe it was like 10 or 15 of the number, the top 15 searches that were out on the internet. And we just were like, what if we put that in the instrument as well. And we had a team at New York University handle some of the analytics with it because I don't have my background or phd and analytics, not smart enough or have the patience for that level of TDO and boredom and expertise. But uh that's what we did. We put all that together like family story, uh role that you played in your family, current problems that you're facing and what's known as the arousal template, which is kind of a constellation of thoughts, images, sensations, fantasies that bring sexual arousal to someone. And we were just really curious what we would find and that was what the data came back is if I were to say like the thesis of my work in that book, unwanted would be that, you know, sexual problems are not a life sentence to sexual shame or stigma. They're a road map to healing and growth. And so we found that sexual fantasies that people were troubled by or wanted to outgrow uh were not random at all. Uh They were actually a direct reflection of the unaddressed issues of their life. And so that's the premise of the work that I do with people is, you know, let's put the problem in the foreground. Let's get really curious about where it comes from, why it might be manifesting in this way and begin to break those things down so that we can understand what driving it. And so we can learn how to heal and then also how to outgrow it so good. And I've read a good amount on this topic, especially just in my past, having struggled with pornography and other un monos behavior and your book is just so revolutionary. There's nothing like it. And, and so that's why I wanted to talk to you. And that's why I, I love the book and I recommend it wherever I go. On. That last note that you mentioned about, um, you know, studying the specifics of people's struggle. I was really blown away about how the sexual fantasies and how the even the porn searches of the individuals in the study, like you said, could actually be predicted by their past untreated trauma. Would you go deeper into that? So, yeah, so a couple, you know, these would be more softball tosses, but I think they're good to be able to understand and break down a little bit. So we looked at, ok, let's say that you were a man and you were drawn towards kind of themes of college or teen porn or maybe you wanted to see someone that was, had a more petite body type or a race that suggested to you some level of subservience. Uh We wanted to see what was driving that and we found that the three primary drivers of that were a very rigid father growing up, a lack of purpose in their life and high levels of shame. So if we were to just play armchair psychologists, just for a moment, if you're growing up with a father who tends to be very authoritarian, very rigid part of what you experience in life is a level of powerlessness, right? So he has all the power, he makes the rules, he has the regulations and he might rule with an iron fist or it just might be like a look that can really shame you into compliance. So when you're growing up in that family, you're gonna feel powerlessness, but also probably some level of humiliation under his reign. So we have that unaddressed story, which how do you talk to your dad about that? You can't, how do you talk to friends about that? You usually don't, but that that issue has to go somewhere. So then this person grows up into someone who's trying to get their career started, but has all this unaddressed family of origin stuff that they've never addressed. And so then they feel a lack of purpose in their life. And one of the things we found in the research was that if the man is struggling with the lack of purpose, meaning he looked back over the course of his life and saw a lot of failure. He felt just a sense of being stymied or stuck with making any movement in his career. He was seven times more likely to increase his involvement in porn compared to those who had, uh, a really solid sense of purpose in their life. So we have this story that begins in childhood where you're, you have no power and then you grow up into a man and you feel like you don't have any power in your life. Well, that's one of the primary allures to pornography is not just lust or fantasy. It's a level of power that for, you know, nine minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes you can get exactly what you want, see exactly what you want to see and you feel like you have power and autonomy over your life. And that's a rare experience for someone like that. So as you can see if you're only trying to fight to stop using porn, but you're not fighting to discover purpose or you're not fighting to heal some of those wounds that your father afflicted you with your struggle with porn is going to remain. And so I think that's the key insight is instead of just trying to fight and unwanted behavior, go back to fight to discover the meaning embedded within it. And if we can heal that and outgrow it, then we have a really solid chance of not just like being free from porn, but far more making movement and finding flourishing in life and living a life of meaning. Precisely. There's so much more there than just, yeah, like the absence of pornography. I hope people don't misconstrue this whole series that we're doing on healing sexual Brokenness, like there's something so good on the other side. And so I love that you're, you're mentioning this. I, on a similar note, I'm fascinated, especially given that we're serving, you know, teenagers and young adults who come from what we call broken families where there's divorce, separation or just a lot of dysfunction. We're fascinated by this idea of repetition, compulsion. We don't talk about that a lot in the show. But this idea of how you might repeat behavior that you even despise. That's my understanding of it at least. And so an example that I often give is like a girl who maybe grew up with an abusive father who ends up marrying an abusive husband, even though she swore she would never do that. And so more particularly for my audience, so many of us come from families where mom or dad cheated on the other and now they're terrified of repeating that in their own relationship. Yeah. So two questions on this. Why has that happened? Like, why do we repeat these behaviors, especially in this sexual context? And perhaps more importantly, how do we avoid that? Let me address like, how do we avoid it first? And then let's go back. So there's this great quote from a guy named Richard Rohr who says the pain that we do not transform, we transmit always someone else has to suffer because I don't know how to. So uh that's what's happening intergenerational is that we have all this pain uh that a lot of us have not always been able to transform. And if we don't transform that pain, we are going to transmit it onto the next generation. And so how do we transform pain? I would say it's a matter of finding grief and finding anger. So grief is that sense of it when you're staring down the Brokenness of many generations, like, you know, the story that I shared about my grandmother when I'm dealing with my own compulsion for secrecy and shame, you know, I can either choose to try and hide that or I can try and will my way through it or I can begin to allow tears to fall with regard to. This has been a deeply broken sexual story in my family for generations, right? And so the only I think real appropriate response to that is a level of grief, but also the other side to that is a level of anger of I don't want trauma to win in my life or my kid's life. And so if we can kind of hold that razor's edge of, sometimes we need grief for some of the tragedies and heartaches that we have known. But also we need a level of anger and defiance to say like no more. Uh this is not going to continue in my family. So any of my clients that I see that are able to hold that paradox of grief and anger end up transforming their lives. So that's how we get out of it. Why does that happen? Uh We are learning more and more and more every day about why this happens. So, one of the fascinating studies uh that's been not just studies but field of studies would be epigenetics and that's the study of gene expression. And so they have done studies with uh something like water fleas. So water fleas that are exposed to a predator, they will give birth to other water fleas that are born with a helmeted or horned head. And that will remain on the water fleas for subsequent generations until the threat is removed from the water. So that's just microscopic water fleas right born with helmeted heads because of the trauma in the water. So if that's happening with water fleas, how much more is that happening with family systems? How much more is that happening with your sexual story? So, epigenetics, I think begins to answer some of that, some of the other things that we know. Uh and this would just be an adage in psychology would be uh we go to people that are familiar to us because they are familial. And so that sense of if you are used to a particular man or woman or archetype in your family, that might be compulsive or uh using substances or having a secretive life that gets coded in your neuros systems, neurobiology is like, this is just a normal person to be around. And so the people that you feel comfortable with later on in life will probably end up resembling what your body has known. And so just that sense of that's part of the repetition. Uh but the other thing I would say, and then I'll pause to see if there's any clarification would be it. You know, all of us that are growing up in these types of home have endured some level of trauma and trauma according to people like Gabor mate and Peter Levine would say that trauma is not just something that happens to us. Trauma is also what happens inside of us in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so just that sense of when the divorce occurred, when the alcoholism occurred, when there was some level of Brokenness, it wasn't just that that event occurred. The bigger question is who held your tears? Who held your rage? Uh who held your face in the midst of a family system breaking down? And if you didn't have someone that offered a face that was able to bear witness to what you went through, you have unaddressed trauma in your life and what's the impact of unaddressed trauma? Uh Three things we have fragmentation. Number one, number two would be a sense of the need to numb. And then the third would be isolation. So, fragmentation, numbing and isolation. So, fragmentation is just that sense of uh when the story is broken. When the family is broken, there's not solid ground to stand on. There is difficulty. We don't know where to go. We don't know what tomorrow looks like. We don't know what five years looks like. And so there's just a sense of how is a nine year old girl supposed to hold the reality of a family imploding or blowing up due to some particular issue where you can't. So you go from this sense of profound fragmentation of life into the need to numb and why do we numb? Well, because the pain of what we are experiencing is far too much. And so that could be finding porn is a great numbing agent, promiscuity. Uh Hooking up with people could be a great numbing agent. Uh Alcoholism, just a lot of substances or screen time can all help us numb and dissociate from the pain that we're experiencing. But then after fragmentation, after you've found kind of the go to numbing device, uh you will inevitably end up in some level of isolation from what you're experiencing. So the shame of what numbing you chose or just the reality that you don't have a lot of people in your life that are able to bear with to what you went through. You end up highly isolated in life. And that's the story that gets repeated over and over again is that we feel fragmented in our adult life. It's too painful to deal with our own family or our own career. So then we find things to numb out with and then we eventually feel isolated and then we're like, dang it. Uh I'm right back to where my family was. Why am I so screwed up? What's wrong with me? My whole family is messed up. I'm messed up. And then that's really where that sense of shame solidifies in our life. Wow. I know that's a lot. No, it's amazing. Generational trauma. But that's, that's how we heal. But also that's why it keeps happening. No, this is so relevant to our audience. And I'd invite everyone listening to actually rewind and listen to that section again because there's so much there. It's so dense. It's so rich. It's so good and there's so much I want to say, but I can relate on such a deep level to everything that you said. So I was 11 when my parents separated and that just shattered my world. Uh They later got divorced and it was just really difficult. And one of the ways that I numbed was pornography. A friend of mine introduced me to it and, um, fell into that habit. Thankfully, I was able to get it out of my life, but it was, um, certainly some an escape, a distraction from the pain in my life. That was just too much to deal with that sense of feeling just broken or fragmented like you said, I, I felt that palpably Jay, like it was palpable through high school into college. It was like, man, I just, I feel so broken. I know I need to heal and I just had no idea how to go about that, which is actually why this ministry exists because I don't want other young people going through the same thing like they deserve better. Um Another thing that you mentioned was just like going to what's familiar. So I've seen this a lot and the young people that I work with, especially when it comes to relationships. It's like, yeah, we, we end up kind of back with people who treat it as similar as our family. Like you said, even to the point that we've noticed that even to the point that healthy relationships feel boring, like they literally feel like uninteresting because we're looking for drama, we're looking for dysfunction and the lack of it seems like this might be isn't the right thing and, and that is just mind blowing as well, so, so much to say there. But thank you for going through it and just want to give you a chance to comment on any of that. Yeah, it's heartbreaking to see these patterns be repeated. But I think that that there's yeah, there's so much in there for healing and growth and I think that's, I mean, that's what we talking about is like there are so many things in our present life that do need to be addressed, that we do need to heal, that we do need to outgrow. But if you are engaging that issue with a level of contempt, like how could I be so stupid or what's wrong with me? Uh You're not going to heal or grow and so growth and healing require a level of curiosity and kindness. And that's what we're getting at is, can you at least be curious about why you might be drawn to the partner that you're drawn to? Can you be kind to the reality that you have an unaddressed sexual struggle uh that you don't know what to do with and most of your efforts to change that uh have actually, you know, thickened the plot. And, and I think again, if we can hold that razor's edge between, how can I be curious, how can I be kind? But also I have a lot of integrity with regard to, I don't want this to, to ruin my relationships. And I don't want this to rob my experience of joy in life. That's really where change will begin to unfold. Makes so much sense. I, I think one of the struggles for this audience in particular coming from these divorced families especially is that so often um because divorce is so common, it becomes so normalized, it's not even called the trauma. So that point that you mentioned about isolation people, I can't tell you today, like how many people we've heard who reach out and say, like I just feel so validated, listening to interviews like this, hearing the experts, like you on the show talk about this stuff because it's just so freeing. And um one other thing I wanted to mention on repetition, compulsion was, um I've noticed and I've heard this from other psychologists as well that you so sometimes kind of go down that path of that unhealthy behavior that you observed growing up almost in an attempt to rewrite the ending of the story. It's like, well, you know, dad or mom cheated on the other. If I maybe start going down that path, I can end it in a way that I wanted them to do that. But uh any final thoughts on that before we move on. Yeah, I mean, there's so much there. Uh one thing that I was thinking about when you were talking uh would just be like we have to think about this in terms of attachment as well. So like when you know, when you, when there's a divorce that happens, your attachments are severed. And so that you found porn at a point where your attachments were severed, that's the work that we want people to be doing is, you know, how have these broken attachments with a mom or a dad actually? Like where is that playing itself out? And for a lot of people, they begin to kind of get a sense of I would never felt attached to my mom or my dad. But that first time that they experience porn or that first time that they uh took a substance, it was like a warm hug that they had never had before. And so that, I mean, I think just even that language would be just really important to understand your attachment. So the point that you were making with regard to people feeling validated and listening to your podcast, um a a little bit bit of kind of neuroscience on that and brain neuroscience, I guess as well would be we have something in the left uh prefrontal lobe called Broca's area. And Broca's area is what's responsible for speech. And so any time that there is a trauma, Broca's area goes offline and so you may have even had that experience in your adolescence or childhood where you know, the divorce happened or something rocked your family and then people are like, how are you? And it's just an aggravating awful question because you're like, I don't know what to say to this. It's like I have no freaking words for what I have been through. I don't know how I talk about any of this kind of stuff. Well, why is that? It's not because you're dumb. It's not because you're stupid and just can't articulate something. It is a form of trauma where Broca's area goes offline. And so again, back to the empathetic witness, but also Brene Brown talks about this in her newest book, she quotes a German philosopher who says that the limits of my language are the limits of my world. And so that's part of what this podcast is doing and what you're doing is you're expanding people's language, which is expanding their world, which is helping them make sense of what they have been through. And so that's where, you know, having an empathetic witness, but also a podcast or just any language that helps people name what they've never been able to name before. Uh group therapy, really important for people coming out of these types of family systems as well because you get to hear other people's experience and you're like, yeah, I had that experience as well like, yeah, moving schools or the shame in my community or you know, how do I deal with the relief of it was really good to get that narcissistic man or what and out of the house. Uh So grateful I can kind of date my life before my mom left and then after she left because it got so much better for me. So we just never quite know in sharing our stories with one another. Uh what's gonna resonate and then what's going to help us develop and cultivate our language for what we've lived through? Wow, so good. And I appreciate all that. If people want to learn more about the neurobiology, neuroscience, are there any books that you recommend starting with because I could tell this is so relevant to our audience. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the, I I would say the body keeps the score by Bessel Van Der Kolk is a great um initial read. If people haven't read it, it's just, I think it breaks down pretty complex uh neuroscience and just the understanding of a lot of what we're talking about, of how does how does the body keep the score from what we have been through? So I would say go there first and then Gabor Mate, uh the myth of normal dives into some of that as well. So there's a lot more neuroscience coming out around all this. But I would say start with Bessel Van Der Kolk or Gara mate. Thanks for that. And I know everyone will, will love hearing that if you were to add anything. Like let's say you were to sit down with a young person. You already said so much. I think that applies to this. But let's say if you're going to sit down with the young person to have that difficult conversation with them about, yeah, just them wrestling with, dealing with their mom and their dad cheating on the other. Would you add anything to what you've already said if you were to again sit across from them and just help them wrestle with that? Mhm. Well, I think it's like the, what's the meaning that they made out of the affair. Right. So, um that's just really important to get a sense of, you know, were there details that they were privy to that, you know, sometimes it was a sense of, it wasn't just the detail of the affair, but they had some sense that their mom or their dad lacked integrity in other areas of their life as well. So, were they brought in, you know, there's just, there's so many different ways that this could play out within a family. So some families, it could be, I, you know, my dad was always traveling and on business and so it, it was never a surprise that he had something of a hidden life or it could be that some parents bring their Children into some of the drama and some of the love affair of what they are developing. So there's this sense of, you know, what did your parent ask you to hold? Was it more emotionally and mesh leading up to that affair? Or was there just more neglect and abandonment? And then that usually has implications from there of kind of what I would follow. So those issue, those questions that you're asking are so good Joey, but it's also, it's so contextual to, yeah, what's the family system like? And you know, all of us have, even though my dad's name is John and my mom's name is Beth. I have a different relationship to my mom than any of my siblings. Uh they have a different relationship to my mom than any of us. So even though we have the same mom, each of us have different mothers. We have different fathers. And so uh that's usually the work of therapy is to kind of get a sense of who was your mother father to you, but also who were they to you as well? Love that. And I think it's an important reminder that there's not just like this one size fits all five step plan to heal anything in your life. Like it is so contextual, like you said, it is so personal and I think it is that way for a reason because like you said, healing happens in relationships. And so, well, that's a relationship with a therapist, a friend, a mentor. We really need people to go into that depth, into the darkness, into the Brokenness with us. In order to come out the other side, we really can't do it alone. And for someone like me who's just like, I've noticed this a lot with our audience too. Like we developed this sort of fierce independence because we felt like, well, you know, I can't really rely on mom and dad, like they're so busy, boring with each other that I kind of have to learn how to stand on my own 2 ft. And then we carry this Brokenness with us through life and these unwanted behaviors. And it's like, man, I really want to get these out of my life. But I have this tendency to just rely on no one just to rely on myself to have this first independence and it puts you in a really tough spot. Yeah. So two things there, part of what we're talking about is the role that each person developed within their family system and you've got to understand your role. So for some people there is that approach of, I can't rely on anyone from here on out. And then yes, you develop a life of a lot of secretive behaviors because you're trying to make your life work outside of the context of relationship. And so that's, you know, the work of healing is to be able to say, I bless that boy, that girl that figured out a way to get through life through being fiercely independent. But then usually at some point in your thirties or forties, there's usually going to be a crisis of the person that you became in response to your trauma is now causing new problems. And so that's always the paradox of this work is let's bless that adolescent, that young adult that learned a way of life to help them survive. But anything that we begin to lean on in the aftermath of trauma will inevitably create problems for us later on in life. And we've got to address that. So that's one role, another role might be, you know, it's the, the son or the daughter who their mother or father never got the therapy or the friendship that they needed in the aftermath of the trauma. And so that child feels like I can't really go off to live my own independent life because I need to kind of tend to my mother or to my father because if I don't, I am something of their lifeline. And so it's that sense of the umbilical cord is still connected to your mother because you feel that sense of if I go off and live my own life, she's gonna be alone. And so I will sacrifice some of my desires and some of my independence. Uh so that she doesn't have to face some of this loneliness. And so then you try and get married, maybe you do get married and then there's this fierce loyalty of like, you know, my spouse wants me to be doing this, but then I really need to go on vacation or at least make a family visit to my grandmother or, or to my mom or to my dad. And again, what is that exposing? It's exposing the role that you learned how to play in a very broken system. And so, you know, don't think that just because you're fiercely independent, you have escape trauma, but also don't think because like you're still very enmeshed with your family system that that event from 20 years ago is still not affecting your life today. So in the words of kind of the writer Faulkner, the, the past is not dead. It's not even past meaning it's playing out right now. One of my guests said that sometimes the past lives in the present. I thought that that's exactly what you're saying. It's, it's so true. And I think that's the work of feeling that we can put the past in the past and live fully in the present, which is beautiful man. There's so much I want to ask you, but let's switch gears a little bit. I was so fascinated by the connection you made in the book between Lust and Anger. Just mind blowing. You said this. You said, I believe male anger to be at the heart of much of the sexual Brokenness and violation in our world want to find out why you're so compelled to pursue unwanted sexual behavior. Figure out what makes you so angry, what's happening here? Why does anger drive those behaviors? Yeah. So we need to think about kind of these behaviors, unwanted sexual behaviors as a river. And so the comparison that I make would be like, think about your unwanted sexual behavior as like a river no different than the Mississippi. And so why is the Mississippi river so powerful? Well, it's because it's fed by so many other tributaries. So the Missouri, the Arkansas, Tennessee Red, I forget how many tributaries the Mississippi has, but it's a lot. And so that sense of what we're dealing with is not just one issue. Uh There are several tributaries that flow into it. And so uh in a lot of kind of faith based communities, they always address, they always try to address the issue of lust. And so what they do is they try and put a dam on that river and they put internet monitoring there. They try and get people into invasive voyeuristic accountability groups. Uh They try to get people to kind of just will themselves to kind of dam it up so that it doesn't flow. And then they find out that it, you know, maybe might work for a little bit, but then it, it inevitably fails. Well, they, they've only looked at one tributary which would be some level of lust, but they haven't looked at other things like unaddressed trauma. They haven't looked at family of origin issues. They haven't looked at the issue of anger. And so anger would just be that sense of, you know, that the man that I was describing earlier with regard to lack of purpose in his life. And also, you know, some level of a rigid father, well, that anger has to go somewhere and for a lot of people, if you don't have a and most of us don't have a context in our world today to talk about the anger of a broken family, to talk about the anger uh that we have towards our moms towards our dads or towards just really anything, uh, any presidential candidate, like we are a people that have so much unaddressed anger in our lives and it's being lived out always. And so that's one of the appeals to porn. You know, let's say that you're in a marriage and someone doesn't like sex as much as you do and you feel like there's some desire discrepancy. Well, if you don't tend to that with honor and delight for one another, there is going to be a sense of I'm angry at you. So I'm gonna go behind your back and feel really justified doing what I want to do because you don't desire sex as much as I do. So therefore, I'm gonna take my anger to this world of porn. Uh Or maybe, maybe you didn't get the promotion that you wanted at work and you feel like that person that so undeserving got it. Well, what are you gonna do with that? Anger? And a lot of times people will begin to find that porn or an affair really begins to kind of help soothe them and calm them down after they're really angry or upset about something. So again, there's just so many different key drivers and don't think that you can just address it through trying to combat lust. It's just, it's not an effective approach. It's a losing battle for sure. Elsewhere in the book, you say this, you say the first key childhood driver of unwanted sexual behavior is having a family system that was characterized as rigid and or disengaged. You mentioned that earlier in the show, Dr Patrick Cars, one of the leading researchers on sexual compulsivity found that 77% of those who struggle with sexual addiction report coming from a rigid family and 87% percent report coming from a disengaged family. I know we can't go too deep into this. But what are the characteristics of those family, families and anything else to add on why they play such a big role? Sure. So, I mean, a rigid family really comes down to this issue of kind of discipline. So discipline for some families might be, yeah, like a, a paddle, corporal punishment. But it could also be something more subtle where you just knew that like you needed to get straight A's or you were gonna be interrogated by a mother or a father. Uh It's usually some sense of like we need conformity in this family because conformity gives us some level of stable ground to lean on. But then if you don't conform in some way, there's usually some discipline that you have to undergo. Well, what's the root word of discipline? Uh It is a disciple which means to teach. And so that's the really key question is, was the disc was the discipline in your home? Did it help you to understand your emotions and why you did the things that you did or was it really trying to use control based methods against you? Um And that's usually, uh you know, a big part of those rigid families is it's gonna create a lot of powerlessness, a lot of humiliation. And so you have to take that somewhere. So what I say in my book is that a rigid family creates fertile soil for anger to emerge, what we were just talking about disengaged family systems would be, you know, much more abandonment and neglect. It's just the sense that care is overlooked in your life. Um And so just from that attachment standpoint that we grow up looking for someone looking for us. And this never ever stops. As long as we are alive and conscious is that we're looking for the delight. We're looking for the faces of people in our world to love us, affirm us, be there for us. And if we are looking out into our family system and there is no loving, compassionate, a deeply delighting face that is given back to us, we are going to scan the horizon looking for someone to look at us. And a lot of times that's what will happen where I will hear people that come from disengaged family systems. And it's like, yeah, the first time that I saw porn, what I was drawn to were the eyes of someone in the porn film because it felt like they were looking into my soul. And I had never had that experience of someone just kind of looking deeply and wanting me. Well, that's an attachment womb that's being sexualized into porn. And so what I say in my book is that disengaged family systems, create fertile soil for lust to emerge. And so I think that's the work is we've got to not just fight against a sexual problem. We've got to go back to the core stories with our parents, with our families. Uh where there is unaddressed, anger and unaddressed grief in our life. Absolutely. No. So good. And, and you're hitting on stuff that this audience deals with so much. So, thank you for, for going into this so well, I've heard you also speak about this tension in families between honor and honesty. Again, we can't go into it too deeply. But what does that look like? And how do you hit that proper balance? Because so many of the young people that I walk with, they really struggle with that, you know, there's like this protection they have of their parents even though they harm them in a lot of ways. Um But they still love them and you know, we want to honor that. So, so how do you hit that balance between the two? So yes, I think we have to hold the tension between honor and honesty. And I would say most people had believed the lie that if I am honest about my mother or father or faith community that I could not truly honor them or the other realm would be if I honored my mother or father or faith community, I could not actually be honest about what I experienced. And I just to point out like that is not the way it is supposed to be. So I think of some of the, you know, ancient. So something like the story of Abraham uh that is held by many different faiths. We know that Abraham in kind of Genesis 12 left everything that he was supposed to leave to go into this land that God had called him to. Uh he is the father of many faiths. And at the same time, we also know that he tried to traffic his wife at least twice. And so it's this sense of like it, the, you know, the Bible is an ancient near east document, which means it's much more of like an Eastern context than anything we would know about it in the western world. So in the western world, we might tend to bend a bit more towards just trying to be honest, uh and unbridled honesty in our day age, but we don't always have honor. But in an, in an Eastern context, I mean, it's all family honor. So just that sense of like we're able to hold, you know, the paradox of this person is full of faith, but they're also a profound coward. And that's the work is, you know, when I've had to address my own family system, I've had to understand that, you know, my dad was consistently reading psychology and theological text together. And so when I think back to my origins of how did I learn how to integrate kind of faith and psychology and being naturally curious about why things work the eyes in the heart and the brain that I have were formed by many conversations with my dad throughout my childhood. So I can honor him for that. But I also have to be honest, that much of the debris in my life and difficulty with attaching and feeling my emotions and having the ability to kind of know what to do with some of the heartache and trauma in my life and his abandonment of my family. And in very significant moments is something that I've had to grow increasingly honest about. And so I think that's the work is uh I, I deeply love my dad and honor him for who he is. And he's a deeply broken man that created a lot of debris in our family. And that Brokenness is not grounds for separation or blame. But I think it's that sense of the grief in our family and in the midst of honoring and being honest about our grief. I think that allows for a new family life to emerge where it's not trying to keep up the appearance of what the stringer family name was supposed to represent. But it's also not trying to kind of just be cruel and angry with one another. But it's a sense of the honesty creates a new foundation of intimacy and that's what we're after. Beautiful and that's healing in itself. We're almost out of time here. But in order to break free, you know, you say that you need to listen to your lust, you mentioned that before. I love, love your analogy of imagining your sexual life as a house. Would you explain that? Yeah. So it probably should have addressed this early on in case people are like, why would I think about my sexual fantasies or porn searches? But uh the basic premise here would be I encourage people to think about their sexual life as a house. So just imagine it's late in the evening and they feel that familiar knock of lust or desire come to their door and just that sense of what are you gonna do in that moment? And some people will, you know, put a force field around their house, they will try and just say no, they might call a friend and say I'm really struggling or other times you just resign to like it's worse to fight this thing. So I'm just gonna let it in and let it ransack various rooms of my house. So as you can see most of the approaches that we take, either try to stiff arm these issues or they just kind of like, let them in. And so the approach that I take in my book and some of the online courses that I have is what would it mean for you to go out onto the front porch of your life and begin to ask your sexual life questions? Like, I wonder why this form of pornography has been appealing to me since I was the age of 15? Or? I wonder why I, I tend to be most seduced into an affair or to porn on a Sunday evening instead of the other days of the week. I wonder what's happening there. Uh So I want people to just develop a sense of curiosity about their life. So get out onto the front porch, ask your sexual life questions. Why am I drawn to this? Why do I love this? I wonder what the meaning is within this particular fantasy or I wonder why I can't reach orgasm without thinking about this particular person or this archetype or this fantasy. And I think that's the, that's the work of healing. It's a bit odd and counterintuitive at first. But I think curiosity can really take us so much further than just a desire to militantly fight something or uh even just praying over and over again to find healing. Uh I just, I think that those, that repetition just doesn't, it's not very generative for us. Yeah. No, so good. I love this approach. So much better than kind of what's typically thrown out there, like less management mastery in some way, like you say. So. Good Jay, you're the man. Thank you so much for your time. I don't want to keep you any longer if people want to get the book and the course in order to kind of be guided through everything that we talked about. How do they do that and how do they find you online as well? Probably the best would be just Instagram uh A Y underscore Stringer underscore the reason for all the underscores is I think there's another British crime fiction that is also J Stringer. So which is actually he was first to market it. Yes, those are your secret identity, right? Yes, exactly. So uh you can find me there website is jay dash stringer dot com and there are assessments that people can take uh if you want to learn this approach and learn the key drivers, there's what's called the sexual behavior self assessment that you can take. Uh the journey course is a faith based course for people that are looking for a new paradigm to address this. Uh unwanted is my book. And then we do a lot of individual intensives uh with my team. And then we also have a training program for leaders. So if you are a therapist, if you are a coach, a clergy of any kind, uh if you're in any type of leadership position, helping people to outgrow these problems we have what's called the unwanted guide program. And that's a 13 week training for professionals to help them understand their own story so that they are more effective in, in teaching others. So good Jay. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for everything you've done. I want to give you the, the last word quickly. Any final words of encouragement or advice for everyone listening, especially those who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior. I just keep going back to curiosity versus contempt. And most of us the way that we tend to engage our own life, our own relational life, our own sexual life is principally out of self contempt or other centered contempt and contempt, especially for us who have known trauma feels really powerful. Why? Because within fragmentation in our current life, fragmentation from our past, we need a sense of sure footing and contempt provides us with a sense of certainty in the midst of uncertainty. So if you can resist the temptation to choose contempt for yourself or to someone else, and you can begin to get curious about your life or someone else's life, it will be so much more beautiful, so much more transformative than anything else that you could choose. So give curiosity a try. Wow, Jay is amazing. His content in his book is just so so helpful. And the main takeaway from this episode, as you can tell is your sexual Brokenness is not random. It's not random. The key to healing. It is actually understanding why you struggle in the particular ways that you do. And Jay's book will help you do that again. It's titled Unwanted. How Sexual Brokenness Reveals our way to healing. Just click on the link in the show notes. If you want to buy that, I highly highly recommend it. And if you're not ready to buy the book, you can get the first chapter for free by going to J dash stringer dot com slash book or just clicking on the link in the show notes. So often as you can tell from this episode at the root of sexual compulsion or Brokenness is trauma. But before you can heal it, you have to understand it. Our free mini on trauma titled Why You Feel Broken consists of five short videos by a trauma therapist that answer the questions. What is trauma? What impact does it have on your body? How does it affect your emotions? What does it do to your mind and how does it impact your relationships again? Once you understand what trauma is and how it's affecting you today, then you can begin to heal and build a life that you long for to get the free mini course. It's really easy to just go to restored ministry dot com slash broken again. Restored ministry ministry is singular dot com slash broken to sign them for free and begin watching the mini course again. Go to restored ministry dot com slash broken or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.