#149: He Was His Parents’ Therapist Until It Broke Him | Cole
What happens when you become your parents’ emotional confidant—their therapist—during a divorce? At first, it might feel like you’re helping. But eventually, it backfires and might even break you. That’s what happened to Cole.
In this episode, we explore:
How he went through his parents’ separation twice—and how each one affected him differently
How he’s slowly rebuilding family relationships after stepping away to heal
Why even small decisions felt impossible—and how he learned to choose with confidence
If you’ve ever acted as your parents’ therapist—or felt crushed by their divorce or the chaos at home—this episode is for you.
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
Joey (00:00)
What was life like at home in the years and months before your parents
Cole (00:03)
initial separation was a pretty high conflict situation, a lot of fighting, lot of yelling, lot of screaming. It ultimately ended up with the police being called to our house one night.
Joey (00:13)
Any lessons that you pulled from that that maybe would be useful to someone listening who's going through that right now?
Cole (00:17)
Boundaries
are definitely important. I had no idea what a boundary was. I was often kind of both of their confidants about how they felt about the other person.
Joey (00:25)
what led to the separation initially and then the divorce ultimately.
Cole (00:29)
Part of the reason that I felt things were going well is because I was being this mediator and listening ear to both of my parents and I felt like I could, you know, fix
Joey (00:38)
Were there any like lessons or mistakes that you wish maybe you could have done a little bit differently?
Cole (00:44)
I tried
to just logic my way out of things and avoid my feelings. Then I also tried to cover it up with pornography, you know, that was effective in the short term, but also made me miss
Joey (00:53)
Were there any other helpful tools or tactics that helped you heal, helped you transform in a better, stronger you?
Joey Pontarelli (01:02)
Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panrelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships you can break that cycle and build a better life.
My guest today is Cole. Cole is a physicist, husband, father who on developing cutting edge photo sensors for astronomy, medical imaging, and physics research. Since his parents divorced in Cole has worked hard to overcome the emotional pain, the problems stemming from his parents' including using this podcast therapy and many other podcasts and books in order to heal. has a good job, great and a wonderful daughter. Cole lives in Massachusetts.
his wife and daughter. His current favorite activity is letting his baby girl asleep on his chest.
But what happens when you become your parents' emotional confidant, their therapist, during or even before a divorce? At first, it might feel like you're helping, like you're doing something good, but eventually backfires and might even break you, and that's what happened to Cole. And so in this episode, we explore how he went through his parents' separation twice and how each one affected him differently.
how he's slowly rebuilding his family relationships, his relationship with his parents after stepping away for a while in order to heal. We talk about his struggle with emotions, talk about stoicism and the lie that real men don't feel.
We touch on why even small decisions felt impossible for him and how he learned to choose with confidence. And then finally, he shares a really powerful encouragement for feels stuck because of their family's dysfunction.
And so if you've ever acted as your parents' therapist or felt crushed by the divorce or the chaos at home, this episode is for you. And with that, is our conversation.
Joey Pontarelli (02:37)
Cole, welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you.
Cole (02:39)
Great to be here, Joey.
Joey Pontarelli (02:40)
I've been looking forward to this show for a while. Um, I know you were a part of some interviews we were doing, trying to understand our audience a while back. And, um, I was just so impressed the way you articulated story and everything. And so not to put pressure on you to do it perfectly in this conversation, but I, yeah, I remember just immediately being like, Oh my gosh, this guy needs to come on the podcast. I'm sorry. It's taken this long, but it's really have you here. And I want to, as we usually do just dive right Uh, what was life like at home?
in the years and months before your parents split.
Cole (03:07)
so much like you, Joey, my parents' divorce was kind of in two parts they had a actually fairly brief separation when I was in high school, about 15, and then they finally separated for good when I was a senior in college. I was about 22. And then I was, they got divorced right in the middle of COVID. July 2020 was their official divorce date.
And I'll say the initial separation was a pretty, shall we say, high conflict situation. A lot of fighting, lot of yelling, a lot of It ultimately ended up with the police being called to our house one night. my dad packed a bag and stayed with his parents for a month or so. was a long, slow process, making sure felt.
okay with him being back in the home when my parents were able to reconcile at that point. And then when they finally separated and divorced, that was a little bit more low conflict. I mean, I was away at college, so I was shielded from a lot of it. As a matter of fact, they didn't tell me when they separated. They waited until I got back from school to let me know. funny thing about that is I called home every week. I just, like, I didn't even...
I was like, huh, it to be only talking to one or the other of them, whether was like whoever's cell phone I call. And then, was, even still, I was just shocked when I finally learned.
Joey Pontarelli (04:23)
Okay, I that makes so much sense and yeah, like you mentioned, I can definitely relate and we'll probably go into that a little bit deeper, but no, it's so interesting how one was kind of high conflict, one was low conflict. And I've definitely seen that where it of bounces back and forth and we'll get into that a little bit deeper. to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, I'm curious like what led to separation initially and then the divorce ultimately.
Cole (04:44)
Yeah, so the final separation.
a good way to put it.
Yeah, I mean it ultimately came down to unmet expectations. My mom, you know, has very high expectations for herself and others and My dad was basically never able to meet them consistently. you know, he didn't handle that well in a lot of ways. And eventually he kind of just emotionally checked out and...
Eventually my mom just couldn't handle that anymore. So she kind of said, hey, I think we should take, like, we should be separated and see that's good for us, if we're able to, you know, to use that space to fix our marriage. Ultimately they kind of backed themselves into a corner where it felt like divorce was the only that's what they decided.
Joey Pontarelli (05:26)
Okay, that makes sense. And are you an only child?
Cole (05:28)
No, I have a younger sister. She is a year and a half younger, so we're very close in age and very different in temperament. I'd say we both would get in the middle of their arguments, but she would get in the middle to join in, and I would get in the middle to try to defuse the situation. Or I would just run. I used to just run and hide in my room when they started yelling.
Joey Pontarelli (05:30)
Okay, and how many years behind you is she?
Okay.
Okay, fair enough. I get both reactions. our interactions that we've had you come across as like very much to like a diplomat, like someone who tries to keep the peace and negotiate all that, such a great quality. But yeah, it definitely is tricky a young person and your parents are fighting don't want them to be fighting and it might seem ridiculous, but they feel very
and pent up and the emotions are running high and you just don't really know what to do. Were there any anything you learned that was maybe the most constructive? Like you mentioned two things there, right? of running away and shielding yourself or you maybe trying to be someone of like negotiator. Any lessons that you pulled from that that maybe would be useful to someone listening who's going through that right now?
Cole (06:30)
I mean, it's hard, right? Especially, I think about this a lot. When my parents finally divorced, I was out of college. I was able move out of the house and get some separation from it I don't know what I would have done if I was still in high school, still dependent, with no way to go. guess I would say it definitely gets better. I'm sorry. If you're going through that right now, I'm really sorry.
Yeah, would... The best I can say keep your head up and try to get through it day by day.
Yeah, I mean, as a Christian, would say pray about I guess what was helpful for me at the time is I had a good group of friends around didn't really share what I was going through at home, but even still, just having the laugh and joke and have safe people to hang out with and not worry about. I mean, we had normal high school fights about whatever.
not worried that the temperature in the room is going to drop 10 degrees because someone's in a foul mood. Yeah, just find people like that wherever you can.
Joey Pontarelli (07:26)
That's good. No, I like that. there's a lot of wisdom in finding like healthy distractions when you're in that situation. I know that was like helpful for me. Now, some of my distractions were not healthy and that's another story. And so I think we like, we want to avoid that as much as possible. But yeah, I think those healthy distractions are really good. And one of the things I was talking with a college student recently and just the situation that she's dealing with is definitely a tricky one with her dad being in.
of this really like, I don't use the word narcissism lightly. I know that that word's kind of thrown around a lot, but like this situation, I would say like fits the bill pretty well. And so one of the things that we were talking about was sometimes I think when you're in the midst of and you're dependent on your parents,
You kind of need under the radar to an extent. Like you kind of just like you said, like you kind of need to get by, get through. And you're on your own, like you had then there's more ability to some.
more appropriate boundaries, even if you already implemented some to avoid anything like serious or inappropriate, whatever. So yeah, anyway, you know, and there's obviously a lot we could say about this, but I think there's something to that lesson. And I kind of felt that way. And I've known a lot of like, teenagers, high school students who kind of are in that spot, you kind of just need to put your head your head up while putting it down to some degree and, know, getting by until on your own.
Cole (08:42)
Yeah, really wish I had a better answer. I boundaries are definitely important. I had no idea what a boundary was. I remember I read the book Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud after my parents got divorced and I read the whole thing and I was like, yeah this doesn't really apply to me. doing great and then I very quickly realized that I just didn't recognize when I didn't have boundaries.
and that it really did apply to me and I had a long way to go. mean boundaries are definitely the best thing that you can do if you're in high school and you're starting to recognize that your family's dysfunction isn't, shall we say, variety and it's a little bit more serious. Yeah, try to implement boundaries to keep yourself sane, whatever looks like.
Joey Pontarelli (09:25)
no, that's good advice. And honestly, I don't know if there's much more that could be said, which kind of sucks. It's like, what the heck, like why isn't there a better solution to all this? yeah, I'm with you right there. It's a really rough thing to go through. So you'd mentioned that the initial separation was in high school for you and final separation and divorce was in college. Do you remember how old you were at both instances?
Cole (09:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, actually I looked through my journals in preparation for and yeah, was 15 my parents first separated and then I just shy of 22 when they separated ended up being for good.
Joey Pontarelli (09:59)
Okay, thanks for sharing. Do you remember how they broke the news to you in both of situations?
Cole (10:04)
well the first time the police were called so was pretty and i was i was home i witnessed the incident ⁓ so yeah so it wasn't ⁓
Joey Pontarelli (10:07)
You mentioned that,
wow. Okay.
Cole (10:14)
Yeah, that one was very, very clear. been fighting a lot, was clear that something had to
The second time though, I was college, I was in a different state, it was a little harder to keep track of what was going on at home.
there wasn't, you know, like I knew they had problems and one of the other parts of my story is that I was often kind of both of their confidants about how they felt about the other person. And some of that, like, some of that was trying to be constructive, like, how do you think I could say that in a way that your parent, your other parent would understand, you know, and they were trying to be helpful and make their marriage function. some of it was, you not very healthy.
Joey Pontarelli (10:46)
Hmm.
Cole (10:53)
But so I knew they had problems. But I really didn't expect that they were going to separate and that I really didn't expect they were ultimately going to divorce.
Joey Pontarelli (11:02)
No, that makes a lot of sense. you get home from college and you had mentioned they sat you down. Was it both of them together or was it separate conversations?
Cole (11:10)
No,
was just my mom because she stayed home and then my dad.
Yeah, my dad was staying elsewhere for a long time. my mom sat me down and talked me through it. I remember just being really depressed. had about two weeks of spring break, I just had one these long walks in the woods. Just kind of like, kind of process it you know, a lot of ways, I kind of sleptwalked my way through the last couple months of senior year of college. know, there were a lot of good moments even in that.
It was really weighing me down.
Yeah, and eventually, like I did eventually see my dad after that. We kind of talked through his side. You know, that that was, I mean, it was just hard, right? Like, I'm glad that we had that experience, but not like you're like, yeah, my parents are separated. This is so good.
Joey Pontarelli (11:52)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, for sure. I know in some there can be like a level of relief, especially like you said before, if it was high conflict, especially in the low conflict situations, it's like, yeah, gosh, what punch in the stomach. those conversations are think one of the things about my family that's been tricky, at least my parents, who I deeply love and
always striving to have a better relationship with that we don't often talk about the hard, hard things. We'll talk about difficult things. We'll have conversations, it's like those really core difficult things like the divorce, things that happened in the past that I won't go into. I've often found that those things just aren't really talked about. That was kind of a lesson that I observed growing up. so that's something obviously I'm trying to do differently in my life, but.
yeah, it's tricky, but those conversations are not easy. So I definitely get your reaction. It makes a ton of sense to me. I would have reacted the same way and in so many ways I did. But yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing all that. And curious to go back to high school just for a second here, because I think there's people who can relate to that situation with the police. I actually had a similar situation my parents. It was a little bit different, but the police were involved at multiple occasions.
was definitely, of brings us to a new level. So I'm curious, like as a high school kid, like you obviously know your parents are fighting, things are tense at home, high conflict, the police show kind of were you feeling and thinking immediately after that?
Cole (13:17)
Yeah, I mean it was I don't remember exactly when, but sometime in that period I was like, you know, I actually prefer to be at school right now. Like at school I don't have to think about what's at home. can distract myself, feel like yeah, I'm at school, I'm supposed to be focusing on school things. that's what I really remember. And then,
The one thing I was relieved about was that I didn't think my parents were going to get divorced and I kind of, felt like we'd hit rock bottom and things could only get better from here. And for a while they did and that was actually really nice. was like a real sense of relief. The downside to that is that part of, know, maybe a small part of the of the reason that
I felt things were going well is because I was being this mediator and listening ear to both of my parents. And I felt like I could, you know, fix them, right? And like I could manage things so that the house would be peaceful and be the middle man and whatnot. know, at the time that felt like a superpower.
wow, if you just love people enough, can control how they'll act and they'll act rightly and so on and so forth. And my parents ultimately did divorce, I just hit this wall where I realized, no, I don't have this power. I'm not superhuman. I can't control other people. ultimately, they're going to make their own But in fact, it's unhealthy to try to manage everybody.
to the extent that I was doing that.
That was a really bitter pill to swallow. I'm very grateful that I learned that at 22 and not at 52 like so many other people do.
Joey Pontarelli (14:50)
Yeah, man, what a hard lesson. get that and I get that desire to help. My goodness, I felt that too. And I know my siblings, especially certain ones, certainly filled more of that role of the confidant, especially for one parent compared to another. it seems so, don't know if natural is the word, but it's just kind of an obvious thing that you would try to do. And I'm curious, so you had that kind of aha moment of like, you know what, this isn't,
working, it's not healthy. How did you change that? I'm curious, maybe it kind of naturally changed due to distance. That's one question. And two, I'm curious like the maybe impact you acting as that confidant, as that maybe like emotional spouse that some people would talk has affected your relationship with your parents over the long haul, to date now. yeah, I'm curious kind of how you ended that and then how that's affected your relationship with them over the long haul.
Joey Pontarelli (15:40)
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Cole (16:19)
well, I guess, like I said, I kind of hit a wall. And so the final thing was that in the summer of COVID, I mean, I'll say COVID was actually in many ways gift to me in the sense that my inner world was such in turmoil with my parents' divorce that with the whole outer world being in turmoil because of COVID.
It actually felt like there was resonance with the world, that my inner and outer worlds were in harmony. You know, there was no more cognitive dissonance that I'm so miserable, but the world's doing so well. So that was kind of nice, actually. But ⁓ yeah, but I spent the summer of COVID helping my dad move his stuff out of our And he had a lot of stuff, Joey. It took the whole summer. Every weekend, he and I would load up a truck and then he'd drive it back to his new house.
Joey Pontarelli (16:49)
Yeah. Yeah.
Get that?
Man.
Cole (17:06)
⁓
And once that was done, just, I was done. I kind of, whatever muscle that I was using, I had exhausted it. And so knew that I couldn't, I just had no more to give. And so like I had to, out of self-preservation, take a step back and stop fulfilling that mediator and confidant role, both of my parents and my sister.
And that was really hard because they were really struggling in a dark place and then they kind of felt like one of their sources of goodness in their life, me, not to sound too bragg-ocious here, but that I was cutting that off too. all three of them in different ways had a really hard time with that. And I would say just in the last year or so have we managed to...
Joey Pontarelli (17:48)
Hmm.
Cole (17:52)
you know, have they gotten to a place of healing, I got into a place of healing that we can attempt to, you know, apologize for our parts and what and rebuild our relationship on a more sturdy foundation. But it was really, I mean, long, drawn-out process. We're talking at least four, if not five years, and, you know, some of those relationships are still not where I hope they'll be.
Joey Pontarelli (18:16)
Sure, work in progress. I get that. I like the language you use, like rebuilding. I think there's like a really, there's a really powerful lesson in everything you just said. I think that we often need to take that approach to unhealthy relationships. Some unhealthy relationships just need to be ended. With family, obviously it's like tricky because they're to some level always in our life and unless it's like truly like toxic and dangerous for us, then hopefully there's a way of, you like you said rebuilding.
restoring, like saving the relationship, but it takes time. I think that's something that a lot of us forget. I know I forget it. We watch movies, we read stories, and we see like the resolution happen like But the reality of the story might be, you know, it took months or years to bring that about.
And so I think there's some good, like I've heard people talk about like the Rocky movies, like if people have seen those, you know, you have like Rocky, like the training montage of like him doing pushups and sit ups and running and, you know, hitting and it's like, it's cool. It's like, wow, that's like, that's awesome. Like I want to do that. But it's like, you want to do that for like a year every freaking day. Like.
It's exhausting. And I think it's similar with these relationships. It's like, this does not happen And if you expect it to happen overnight, I think that's where a lot of like discouragement and like frustration comes is cause like our expectations are so off. But if we look at it more, like you said, it's like, like a home. Like the home is dilapidated. Like it's, there's like diseases. It's like not livable. We need to, we need to tear it down.
and we need to rebuild the foundation, make sure that's strong, and then we can slowly put up the walls wire the electrical, you know, the whole thing. So I think there's something powerful in that.
Cole (19:47)
yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. yeah, think a house is illustration for that, because you're right. There's so many little details that go into it. It's not going to be fixed quickly. think that in my own story for sure, not recognizing that this was going to be a years-long process was a huge stumbling block for all of us.
Joey Pontarelli (20:06)
Hmm.
Cole (20:06)
that we really kind of rushed into things too quickly thinking, well, it's going to be fast, so let's jump back into it. It's been a month. That's got to be long enough, And just immediately hitting exactly the same pain points that caused us to take the month in the first place.
Joey Pontarelli (20:17)
Yeah.
No, totally couldn't agree more. I love what you said just everything you're saying now. It made me think the business world, I remember hearing America, we're very like short-term thinking. And we think in terms of, you know, quarters and years. Whereas Chinese and other Asian countries their business, like philosophies, is more to think in like decades and centuries, which is so interesting.
And so I think like, you know, the lesson in that is like we're saying is we need to adjust our expectations. That's going to take time. You don't build something like overnight. You don't build a strong relationship overnight. So I think that's kind of freeing. know it has been for me when take that mindset. the other lesson I wanted to, mention in your story was just this like reality of being like a crutch to people, something that like kind of holds them up. I remember that happening with a.
multiple friends, to be honest with you, I was always the type, especially in high to just like when I saw my friends struggling, I wanted to help. I just wanted to help. to a degree where I got like overly involved and it got unhealthy to where they relied on me for their stability and you you can finish the story. So I remember situations where yes, I was able to prop them up like an actual physical crutch.
But in time I realized, wow, this is not healthy, this can't go on. And then when I stepped away, they often felt harder than they even would've if I was ever there to begin with. And so it was really like kind of hit you in the face lesson. so then, like you experienced too, I had to learn more about this thing called boundaries and why that's important. And if people haven't read the book, we have an episode that we actually summarize the book instead of taking like the four to six hours to read it.
We tried to summarize the main concepts in like 45 to 60 minutes. If you guys want to listen to that, we'll throw that in the show notes, but I couldn't agree more. think that's like one of the main lessons, skills, virtues, whatever you want to call we need to anyway, I wanted to mention that about the crutch because that was a very real experience for me.
Cole (22:14)
Oh yeah, no I totally relate to great when you're the crutch. For a while it works and you see the fruit in this person's life and then eventually you realize that you can't be their crutch forever they have to learn how to stand without you. If someone broke their leg and they never got off crutches again, that wouldn't be any good.
Joey Pontarelli (22:35)
Yeah, no, totally, totally. Like you don't rebuild those muscles and regain the youth. That's a great analogy too. I'm curious before we move on from this, there any like lessons or mistakes that you wish maybe you could have done a little bit differently? Like obviously if we went back, you probably would say, wish I would kind of kept healthier boundaries from the beginning and not been that emotional confidant. But I'm curious if like, I wish I would have said this or had this conversation or done this, anything like that can maybe help someone who's in that situation now.
Cole (23:03)
yeah, so when I first kind of pulled away from my family, moved out of the house, got my own place.
About six months later on, my mom noticed that I was pulling away and she was really hurt by that. But she was like, should we just take it like, should we just take a year where we don't see each other and like, you know, maybe text and catch up a little bit and leave it at that? And like, I should have said yes. That probably honestly would have shortened the difficulties we had by about a year in the end. But you know, at the time,
I couldn't say yes. couldn't. It felt so selfish and so impossible to agree to. I just said, don't know. But I wish, going back, that I just said yes and owned that and taken the space that I really needed rather than try and try and try again to pretend things were normal and be hurt when they weren't.
Yeah, I wish I really wish that I had just said yes at that point and you know learning the skill to say like to set boundaries and take space and advocate for myself in that way that was the lesson you know I wasn't ready then I'm a lot better at it now but yeah that's what I would say to someone going through it if someone someone says that to you just be honest
Be honest with yourself, if not with the other person. Yeah, I do actually need that.
Joey Pontarelli (24:23)
No, that's such a good lesson. And what I'm hearing you say basically, don't feel ashamed, don't feel guilty. Sometimes you take a step back, you need to retreat in order to move forward properly and rebuild like we were saying. So I think that's really powerful. just to be clear, like some people have misunderstood me.
and in some of our messaging, we're not saying to abandon your parents, we're not saying to just run from your family, we're not saying never talk to them again. Certainly there's situations that warrant that because things are so dangerous and toxic.
But by and large, the majority of cases, like we advocate for solely and appropriately with boundaries, rebuilding those relationships so you can have a great relationship. Like it's a whole thing. That's what I want with my parents. I know that's what you want with your parents. Like I think we all want And so, so yeah, I think that's an important distinction just for anyone who maybe has misunderstood that in the past, but moving on from there, curious. we'll kind of focus on the, maybe the rough and the bad for a second, and then we'll go further into the good and kind of how.
just grown and healed, curious, yeah, if you had a moment to, I mean, you've mentioned multiple things where you kind of realized like everything that you were going through, the dysfunction, the separations, the divorce, where it was like affecting you negatively. It sounds like you're a very self-aware person. Some people kind of have this like light bulb moment, like, wow, I didn't think it was affecting me. It's affecting me now. But I'm curious, like if you had a moment where you realized, wow, this is really weighing on me.
Cole (25:45)
my parents did to a certain extent advocate for therapy for like certainly with their dysfunction and with my own and so when they decided in October of 2019 that they were gonna get divorced I kinda thought yeah I really should find a therapist and I was kind of
Yeah, I was basically kind of being slow about it. And then in December of broke up with my girlfriend and one of my best friend's mom died. And...
Then I immediately got into another relationship, which was definitely a sort of rebound kind of thing. I realized, like, wow, this is a lot of stuff to be going on in my life on top of my parents divorcing, and I really need help. And so that was kind of a wake-up call, was able, thankfully, because it can be hard to find a therapist, I was able to.
Joey Pontarelli (26:19)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Cole (26:40)
find one and start in January of 2020. So I actually got to see her in person before COVID shut everything down.
Joey Pontarelli (26:47)
that makes sense. Okay, so there was like a level of like maybe denial or thinking like I'm okay, like things around me aren't good, but I'm good. Okay, that makes sense. And then yeah, man, I can't imagine going through that like triple, that trio of like trauma, tragedy, whatever you wanna call it. Dang, that's rough. I'm curious, like to whatever degree you wanna touch on this, like emotional problems you've struggled with.
bad habits that kind of became a coping mechanism for you, and then relationship struggles. So there's a lot there, but those are like the three categories, like emotional problems, bad habits, and relationship struggles, anything you want to share there.
Cole (27:19)
yeah, was definitely... Emotional problems for sure.
I remember, where did I read it? I'm a huge history buff, military history in particular. And I remember reading this about French soldiers at Verdun that maybe in this months long battle, this constant artillery fire, hundreds of thousands of people dying, and that eyes would go dull. author described it as like,
They thought that their feelings were also like vermin, like the fleas that needed to be picked off and squeezed away. That that was the only way they could cope. And to be honest, there were parts in high school, like around my parents' first separation, was a time where I was like, yeah, that's the thing. Like if I want to be like a real man, like that's what I need to do. I need to take my bad emotions and squash them like bugs and not feel and just like...
Joey Pontarelli (27:50)
Hmm.
Cole (28:09)
you know, perfectly logical so I can keep functioning at this high level and so on and so forth. Now I'm like, you poor, boy. You poor little foolish little boy. Right? And so I tried to just logic my way out of things and avoid my feelings. And then I also tried to cover it up with pornography. know, and that was effective in the short term, but also made me miserable.
And then, yeah, so I definitely fell on the idol side of relationships. Like, I really made, like,
Who's the guy who wrote Wild at Heart? John Eldridge. Yeah, John Eldridge. He talks about the myth of the golden-haired lass. There's the woman who's going to solve all of my problems. As Christians, we know that only God can do that. But I was like, I wasn't cool in high school. needed to work up the courage to actually ask a girl out. But when I finally did get in a relationship, I was like,
Joey Pontarelli (28:41)
John Eldredge.
Yeah.
Cole (29:03)
This is it, she's the one, like we're getting married. That didn't work out. Next girl. That's it, she's the one, we're getting married. And I did that four or five times before I finally, finally a girl broke my heart and it was COVID, my parents were getting divorced. And I was like, I need to slow down and just be single and grow in maturity and figure out my life.
Joey Pontarelli (29:28)
Yeah.
Cole (29:29)
And only then did God grant me the ability to meet the woman who became my wife. I really think those two were pretty tightly connected. Like, God was like, you're not ready for this girl yet.
Joey Pontarelli (29:40)
So good.
No, there's everything you mentioned I can relate to and have struggled in very similar ways. the stoicism piece, the kind of like solution to bad or messy emotions, quote unquote, bad or messy emotions. Um, I felt a similar pull on high school too. I remember just like, I don't really know what to do with all these emotions. Cause like, you know, broken
family and messy situation there. I really thought that like you, the goal was like to avoid the highs and the lows and just try to like stay somewhere in the middle. And it's interesting today to see you know, what I'm observing at least is like stoicism seems to be on the rise and there's certainly I think some virtue.
Cole (30:08)
Mm-hmm.
Joey Pontarelli (30:15)
in learning to master your emotions, not letting them control your behavior, certainly some good stuff in that. But yeah, I think the result for me, and I'm curious to hear what it was for you, that I kind of became, like a machine, someone who was very skeptical of emotion overall. didn't think that they were useful. didn't think that they were important. And life honestly became pretty dull for me when I...
tried to be emotionless. But yeah, I'm curious if there's anything else you would add to what you already said.
Cole (30:43)
Yeah, I agree need emotions. They are what give life its flavor, what give you your drive. And part of that like, you know, not knowing what I wanted. Like people would ask, like, what do you want for dinner? I'd be like, I don't know, you pick, man. Like, I don't want to deal with that kind of hassle. You know, and that's hard because especially as a teenager, like, everyone's asking you, what are you doing with your life? What are your hopes and dreams?
I don't know, get through this year at high school so I can go on to the next year, you know? and like, it's really been a struggle to just like let go of that and recognize like, I don't have to be afraid to figure out what I want. Like that's a good thing.
Joey Pontarelli (31:10)
Yeah.
Cole (31:22)
because that was definitely wants just lead to conflict and conflict leads to separation. I just want nothing, then I can live in harmony. not only is that boring, but that leaves you stuck because you have to want in order to change.
Joey Pontarelli (31:28)
Hmm.
So good. I love what you said. Want leads to conflict, conflict leads to separation. And that could like, yeah, scare you away from like really desiring things. So good. I found that with a lot of people like us from, you know, dysfunctional divorce families is that we often like don't know what we want or we really struggle with decisions. And I think there's two parts to it. The part of like not knowing what we want. I'm curious to hear your perspective on this. Is I think in part that we were
spent so much time not focusing on ourselves. We focus on our family, our siblings, our parents, like trying to like keep the peace, trying to help, So that's like.
You know, we can just not know what we want because we've never taken like the time to reflect and think like, what, you what are my desires? What are the things that brings me joy? What are the things that, you know, how would I want to have an impact on the world? Like, what do I feel like is my mission in life? What do I want to accomplish all those And then on the other end, I think there is with kind of like the indecisiveness, which obviously goes hand in hand, there can be this desire in us for maybe we didn't experience at home. And there can be a desire in us for surety, for certainty, which, again, maybe we didn't experience
at home because things were often ambiguous and we didn't know if like I'm I'm my dad gonna stay together, get divorced, or like what's gonna happen depending on the situation.
And so I've definitely seen both of those things play out and I experienced it myself. And so I think what you were describing too, of like finally having like some time to be like, no, I need to kind of like grow into my own person, my own identity, become a man, find my mission in life, find what I love, what I, brings me alive, what I feel like called to do with my life. That was like helpful for me. And then with the decisions, honestly, it was like more of a science of like, or maybe a science isn't the right word, but it was kind of like a skill development of like looking at people, especially mentors in my life.
who really good at making I think I've learned a lot from Jaco Willink. If people are familiar with Jaco, he wrote Extreme Ownership, he was a Navy SEAL And that's one of the things great about special operators I look up to those guys a lot. blessed to know a couple of They're just really good at making decisions.
And so there's a lot to learn from them too. And there's other people obviously in the business world that I've benefited yeah, I think those were kind of some of the antidotes to solutions to both of those struggles for me. my temperament to some degree helped as well, but I've walked with people or have people close to me maybe are a little bit more like not the...
you know, maybe type A were like, I love making decisions. And so anyway, those are some things that helped me kind of work ⁓ you know, what I wanted and learning how to make decisions better. yeah, I'm curious, does any of that resonate and any other like lessons or things that you would add to anyone listening who needs to hear it?
Cole (34:05)
Yeah, absolutely. this is an embarrassing story. So when I was like 15, we were on vacation my mom was like, all right, cool, we're going to let you pick what we do tonight. We're either going to go bowling or we're going to go mini And I just couldn't handle it. hit the wall, like, know, like I'll go for a walk. make the decision. I went for a walk. They were like, ah, that's been long enough. They went looking for me. I ran away from them.
no I can't can't and eventually my grandpa had to take me and sit me on his lap and I was you know I was felt like I was too big for that at that age but he had like this was really helpful he sat me on his lap and he said there's gonna be so many decisions in life sometimes it'll be you'll make the good choice sometimes you make the bad choice most of the time it just matters that you choose
Joey Pontarelli (34:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cole (34:52)
Yeah, it was a lot of hard work, know, like the first thousand times I did it, I hated it. But just like, you gotta make this, just make the next decision. Just do the next hard one, like, just pick a ch- like, honestly, like, roll the dice, flip a coin, whatever helps you, just make one, like, pick an option, and just do that enough times until you're comfortable with it. And I think that's, I think there's a lot of things in life, like-
You just have to find the thing that you can do that you're like, I did it. I made this decision, whatever it is, and see where you can build from there.
Joey Pontarelli (35:26)
See you again.
Joey Pontarelli (35:28)
If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level and makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, they're less anxious, they're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the same path that you're on, but
a bit far behind you to just hear your advice and to hear your story since you're going through things that you've been through. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restoredministry.com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restoredministry.com slash story, or just by clicking the link in the show notes.
Joey Pontarelli (36:20)
I love it. I love it. Starting small, like, you know, what food you want to eat or restaurant or, know, whatever is small for that person. I love that. That's a great lesson. and one of the things that was helpful for me when it came to decisions to just picking up where you ⁓ just went was talking about how not every decision deserves the same degree of like deliberation, just thinking through it. You know, some, some decisions you can just make shooting from the hip. And like you you're that, love it. Your grandpa said,
maybe you make the wrong decision. It's like, maybe you order the food at the restaurant that you didn't really want or that wasn't like the best option on the menu. It's like, you know what? You're going to survive. You're at a restaurant, you're eating, you know, food and blessed to be there at all. so, so yeah, I think that that's been helpful for me as well. Cause I think I certainly can have the, I'm such a detailed person, so I can be in this situation where like, no, I want to make every decision like perfectly or do that well. And it's like, not every deserves that level of attention.
Cole (37:14)
there's actually something to be said that if you take that long for every decision that you're not doing it well you're wasting time that you could spend on something way more beneficial.
Joey Pontarelli (37:22)
I couldn't agree more. We'll link to this in the show notes as well. I won't go into it too much, but there's a really helpful exercise if you're making like a bigger life decision from Tim Ferriss, he's an author which you might be familiar with from The Business World. And one of the things that he says is that so often our decisions are because we afraid. We're just afraid.
And so said, instead of kind of like shying away from that and maybe like focusing on something else, he's like, no, actually push into that fear. And when you push into that fear, you could actually like address it and work through it. And so the quick version of this is he says you need to like go through essentially like three mini exercises. The first exercise is thinking through, okay, if this thing were to go terribly wrong, like the worst it could go, what would it look like?
And then you just like describe that. know, some people do like a sheet of paper, you do like three columns and you say in the first column, like what's worst case scenario? What could this look like if it goes Write down the bullet points of like, okay, well, you know, I could get hurt or this might happen, my heart might break, whatever the scenario really clear on that. Cause it's like, that's what you fear. Spell it out. What does it look like? Second column is, what could you do to prevent it from happening?
Like certainly situations, there's things you can do to like prevent the bad thing from happening. And so write those out. Well, I could do this. I could do that. know, whatever, you know, like if you're afraid of getting sick, it's like, I can maybe sleep more and take vitamins or whatever work out. Then the final column is where you say, okay, like this is the worst case scenario. I, I said what I'm going do to prevent it. But if I
can't prevent it. The final thing is I'm going to talk about how am going to recover and how long will it take? What is it going to require? know, sometimes that might be a monetary value if it's like a career option or you're buying something. Other times it might be more of like an emotional thing or a health thing. So that's it. That's his exercise. So basically summarize the video for you guys. Sorry to go so deep into this, but I hope it's helpful to everyone listening. And we'll link to like the video where he is in a Ted talk that he went through that whole exercise, but that's again, know, the three kind
of lists, the one less of worst case scenario, second less of what can you do to prevent it and third less of, you know, what can you do to recover and how long will that take? And he said, once you go through that, and I've done this myself, offered it to other people who found it really helpful. Once you go through that, you kind of have a clear vision of like, okay, this isn't as scary as I thought it was. And I now have a decent idea of like, you decision like is worth the risk. It's worth risking that worst case scenario and I'm gonna do the things to prevent it. And then if it happens, then I'll be okay.
Cole (39:44)
Yeah, now that's really brings to mind for me is freshman year college, remember friends were really stressed out about the first test in college. This is the rubber meets the road, first test of my abilities, how am going to do it? I was like, worst case scenario is test, you fail the class, you drop out of school, and you'll live in your parents' basement, right? Anything above that is a win.
Joey Pontarelli (40:06)
Yeah, there you go. So good, man. I love it. I was curious. So we're almost at the end of our time now, but I wanted to ask a little bit you mentioned you went to therapy and you found that helpful.
Were there any other helpful tools or tactics that helped you heal, helped you transform in a better, stronger you?
Cole (40:24)
Yeah, well, I this podcast was definitely one of them. I found this in the fall of 2020. healing to take this issue seriously, Joey. Just say, you deserve to have your parents be together, that anything less than that is a tragedy. And that was so freeing to There's so many different voices.
Especially when you see the marriage falling apart, you're like, yeah, mean, were so many problems. hard to be upset about that. But just to know, to have the freedom to say, yeah, this was wrong, and it's sad, and we don't have to stay there, but we can recognize that this shouldn't have happened. that was really freeing. And then on top of that, yeah, I mean,
So Boundaries by John Townsend and Henry Kraut is very helpful. I read basically their whole series. My particular favorite is one called How People Grow, which is just like, I mean, they're Christians, so it's like a Christian and psychology mix of just like how to grow as a person. Like just really, really, really good. And then yeah, I mean, listened to a lot of other podcasts. I joined a men's group.
And was actually, the nice thing was they were all people about my parents' And so I was able to, you know, they complained about their kids, I complained about my parents. We got to kind of see both sides of the issue. That was really helpful as well. And, just to be honest, you know, I was really looking for that sort of father figure in my
you know, because I had to take a step back from my own dad at that time. And that was, it was nice to have some, like, multiple men that age, just recognize that, you know, my life doesn't have to end up like my dad's. can end up all these different other ways.
Yeah, and I had a great pastor friend at that time who called me every week during COVID. And when we couldn't meet in person, he would call and then we could meet in person and just having like being able to talk to him and just open up about what was going on in my
just have extra listening ear that's just always so valuable, especially when you're in the middle of something and not looking at it with the benefit of hindsight.
Joey Pontarelli (42:26)
So good. I love all of that. And man, I'm so happy that we were able to serve you in that way and be, you know, one of the voices that we're consoling and helpful. And yeah, I'm really glad, you know, it's yeah, you're why we do this. So I appreciate it. Appreciate you saying that. You mentioned that, you know, people were really helpful. You mentioned friends before the pastor, you know, having all those people. I'm curious if you have any advice for people who
are in a situation where they feel like they don't have anyone to turn to. Like they, know, maybe feel, maybe it's not even true completely in their life, but they feel like, I don't know who to go to. I need to talk to someone, but I don't really know where to start. Yeah, any advice for someone in that situation?
Cole (43:06)
Yeah, I mean that is, it's a real thing. It's really hard, especially, you know, when so much of our lives are online now. You know, you can have like faux friendships online, and even real ones, but you know, there's something about meeting in person and, you know, knowing someone's name and face and not just their avatar. That's so, so helpful. So yeah, I mean, like what I would say like,
I wish I had a secular answer, but even if you're secular, there's thousands of churches across America. full of people, mostly over 50, who really want to see a young person in their midst. Someone at that church would love to into you and to listen to you and work with you. I know it can be intimidating to walk into a church that you've never been to. I certainly felt that way.
in college and stuff when I was trying to find a local church. mean, church groups. One that was helpful for me was...
I forget what it's called.
But anyway, there's gonna be ministries at different churches, know, set up around just being able to go in every week and share the misery in your life.
The first time you do that it can be really hard and intimidating, but the second time it's going to get easier. Anything you can do to go out and find... Actually, here's a good secular answer. Go on Facebook, they've got all these meetup Find something that interests you. It could be a sport, could be a hobby. Go to your local game shop. They've got Magic the Gathering nights at my local game shop.
Go there and meet friends, meet people, and next step for that you actually will do, try that. You've got to go out in the real world and meet some people. My hope and prayer for you is that you'll find safe people that you can really pour into. Take it slow. Don't spill your guts on the first day unless it's a 12-step program.
Joey Pontarelli (44:38)
Yeah.
Cole (44:57)
I'm sure that you'll eventually find people who are safe.
who you can share and open up with. that, unfortunately, you gotta get out there, but it's so worth
Joey Pontarelli (45:06)
yeah, I love that. And I think another thing too is kind of things that I learned in my experience. One was you could be mentored and helped by people who maybe aren't immediately in your life, which like I agree, like it's way better to be like in person if you can have that. But if you can't, like people who write books, people who have podcasts, people who, you know, even create content online.
and can source of like mentorship and help. But I think ultimately, like I totally agree that we wanna the in-person thing. It's gonna go much deeper and be much then also the other thing that I kinda had to challenge myself around sometimes, I'm not saying this is everyone's case, but sometimes we can kind of complain and think like, oh, I'm all alone and there's no one here to help me. And that could be true. I'm not putting people down in that situation.
But a lot of times, like if you look around, it's like, no, actually there's people in my life who, if I put some effort in, like we can build a friendship. If I put some effort in, you know, they could maybe mentor me. Like if I ask them to coffee and ask them for some advice or whatever, I've found that it's often just like more of the discomfort of doing it that's the barrier, not like the fact that there's no option absolutely on the table anywhere in your life. So I've had to challenge myself, be like, nope.
make the phone call, send the text message, invite them, follow up if they give them an out too. If they don't wanna do it, that's totally fine. But invest, and my mom would always say, be a friend. And I think there's so much truth to that too, that you don't just wanna just go into friendships and even mentorship relationships. Maybe they're a little bit different, but looking for like.
I want to receive, receive, receive, but hopefully there's some way of like reciprocating and giving back. And I found when you do that, like people, people will want to spend time around you. Not everyone, but you'll get your group of people. And so anyway, those are just kind of two challenges I had to issue to myself growing up.
Cole (46:47)
Yeah, I totally To be honest, the fear of trying is going to be the hardest part almost all the time. mean, yeah, you'll find someone, especially if you've got a shared interest. You know how many people play golf with other people just to hang out?
There's all sorts of activities. Just find one and you'll find people who will want to do it alongside you and who will like you for you and eventually hopefully will be able to listen to your story.
Joey Pontarelli (47:02)
Yeah.
Love it. Yeah. your parents didn't remarry, did they?
Cole (47:16)
Actually, yes. I just found out, yeah, so my, they both eloped last year. So my mom eloped, yeah, last Valentine's Day and I just found out that my dad and his new wife eloped right after Christmas this past year. So, yeah. Really fresh.
Joey Pontarelli (47:17)
They did, okay.
Wow.
Wow, okay, so this is pretty fresh for you. ⁓ How's that,
yeah, yeah, how, to whatever again you're comfortable sharing, how's that experience been for you? Because if I'm honest, I know people, I people close to me who have gone through the whole and kind of step family thing, but I haven't personally, so I'm curious, what's that been like for you? What are you thinking or feeling?
Cole (47:52)
It was really hard, especially at first, to even wrap myself around that idea. Like, my parents with somebody else, my parents dating, my married to somebody else. I have a stepmom, I have step It's a lot to get your head around. Just give it time.
I will say especially at first I was hyper paranoid. was like, yep, nope, there's the same problems that were in their first marriage are gonna come up and they're just gonna like this marriage is gonna crash and burn and I'm gonna sit there and say I told you so and it's gonna be terrible yeah, I would say you know, those thoughts might be justified, they might not, but they're not gonna make you happy. They're gonna bring you nothing but misery.
It's not your job to make sure that your parents' second marriage is working. For me, please don't try. and to be honest, like, it has actually opened some new beauty into my life. To see my parents, to see them happy again and see them...
see the ways that this new relationship, see the good in this new relationship, even if I'm, even if it's hard, recognizing that there still can be some good and some beauty that comes out of it. if you open yourself up to it, you'll get to experience it. And if you close yourself off from it and bury your head in the sand and say, won't be happy until my parents get back together.
Well, I felt that and I'm sorry that you're in that position and unfortunately that path only leads to misery. I'm sorry that that's the reality.
Joey Pontarelli (49:24)
Yeah.
speaking the truth, man, appreciate that and thanks for being so honest about it. And that makes sense, kind of the mixed emotion coming along with like that, that reality. And I've heard some of the things from friends and things. But speaking of kind of beauty coming out of brokenness, I'm curious toward the end of our conversation.
Yeah, what has the transformation been like for you? So we talked about maybe some of the things you did to heal and grow, but bring me up to speed on like, what's good in your life now? How have you grown and stronger because of everything that you've been through? I know you got a lot of good, beautiful things happening.
Cole (49:55)
Yeah, I mean the main thing is that I got married. I've got a six-year-old daughter. She's amazing. are amazing. ⁓ And that's really been healing too, just like getting to see family members care for this little baby girl and just see them go to pieces and light up in new ways. Babies are magical. They make even the most gruff and...
closed off, people open up just a little bit. And that's amazing. Yeah, and being able to rebuild to whatever level. My relationship with my family members, it's been just practically helpful in a sense because like it or not, your parents are your main source of financial support and advice and so on and so forth. as a parent, childcare. I mean, that's huge too.
And so a lot of beauty from being able to get some forgiveness and healing with my family and for myself just honestly having a deeper relationship with God, going through this sort of thing and recognizing that God was with me every step of the way was priceless. all the skills and skills I had to learn and the maturity that I had to grow into.
to deal with the mess that I was in. Yeah, I mean, just so valuable. it's a work in progress, and hopefully I'm slowly getting better at it as time goes on. Yeah, just recognizing that even making decisions that at one time were so impossible that I couldn't make the most trivial decision. Actually doing that and being comfortable with making, you know, sometimes...
very impactful decisions at work or whatever. just, yeah, just being comfortable with that and accepting that they won't always go my way, but if I make no decisions, then they'll never go my
Yeah, healing and growth is possible and you can really build a beautiful life.
Joey Pontarelli (51:47)
I love it. love it. And I love just the fact that you've taken action. Like you didn't stay stuck even if you felt stuck. You moved and you're trying to build something beautiful along the way. And I think that's like the most that anyone can do who has been through trauma and endured a lot of dysfunction. It's like, just keep moving. Just, you know, go like seek the healing, do the work.
to be better, stronger, be virtuous and then attempt to live that life that you're called to live and along the way you will figure it out, especially with God's help. So, love that. Couple of final questions. One, you could speak honestly to your parents and let's say you're having a conversation with them, I'm curious, what would you want them to know if you're comfortable sharing?
Cole (52:29)
Yeah, but I love them and that.
I realized that they were over their head and that I don't blame them for anything.
glad that I took the space that I needed and I'm glad that our relationship is better now.
Yeah, that's what I'd say.
Joey Pontarelli (52:43)
Beautiful. you've been amazing. I wanted to ask if people wanted to reach out to you, wanted to get in touch with you, maybe ask you a question, get some advice, what's the best way for them to contact you?
Cole (52:54)
Yeah, probably best way would be via email. My email is healthcjh, that's the word, health, and then cjh at gmail.com. You'd think that I made that for this show, but I made that for ninth grade health class thinking I'd never use it again, and here we are.
Joey Pontarelli (53:10)
I love it. Oh, you should have seen some of my emails back in the day.
Cole (53:15)
yeah. Everyone's got that first email address they regret. At least mine's not too cringe.
Joey Pontarelli (53:21)
100 % Mine pretty much is but maybe we'll save that for another time Alright man, you're amazing bro. So good to talk with you. Thank you. Thank you And I just wanted to give you the final word as we usually do what this final encouragement and advice Would you leave with everyone listening, especially maybe the younger you out there who's listening right now?
Cole (53:25)
you
Yeah, I'd just say, I'm sorry you're going through what you're going through, but it does get better. you goal in life and you can achieve that goal. If that's what you want, just keep working at it and you'll see yourself getting closer building the character that you need to achieve that goal. That's what I would say.
Joey Pontarelli (54:06)
That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever app you use. You will avoid missing future episodes and that helps us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We definitely appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find the podcast.
In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
