#150: Attachment Theory: What It Is and Why It Matters | Kirsty Nolan

What is attachment theory? How does your attachment style impact your relationships? As an expert in attachment theory, Kirsty Nolan joins us to discuss all of that, plus:

• The four attachment styles

• What happens when you have a secure attachment early in childhood, but later experience a rupture because of trauma, like your parents’ divorce

• Tips on resolving conflict, specifically how to repair after a rupture

If you’re curious about attachment styles or just want a healthy relationship, this episode is for you.

Links & Resources
Listen to Kirsty’s podcast, Attachment Theory in Action

It Doesn't Have to be Catastrophic: Dr. Nima Rahmany

Get help from Kirsty’s organization, Chaddock

Get the Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide, The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:00)

What happens when two people with insecure attachments get into a romantic relationship?

Kirsty Nolan (00:05)

Well, there can be good, bad and ugly. What can happen when two people with insecure styles come together is that they are trying to seek something from the other person that the other person cannot give them. There's a lot more people with insecure attachment styles than we do.

Joey (00:21)

So

I'm curious like how that might play out like where you have one parent who's very present and the other one who's not

Kirsty Nolan (00:27)

There is hope for healing. You don't have to end up like your parents if that's what you don't want.

Joey (00:32)

to

do. How do I make sure that I give my child the attention, the love that they need in order to develop this secure attachment?

Kirsty Nolan (00:39)

continue

with unhealthy patterns of behavior because of those attachment styles that we

Joey (00:44)

What would you say are maybe your top tips on kind of healing and moving toward like building a healthy relationship?

Joey Pontarelli (00:54)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle build a better life.

My guest today is Kirstie Nolan. Kirstie is an expert on attachment theory. She's worked with children and families for many years and now serves as a lead trainer at the Knowledge Center.

Kiersey hosts the podcast, Attachment Theory in Action, which has over 2 million downloads. She specializes trauma-informed education, child development, and attachment among other things.

She's trained educators across Illinois and spoken nationally on these topics outside of can find Kirstie spending time with her family or hiking with her dogs.

And if you've ever wondered what is attachment theory, how does your attachment style impact your relationships? You are in the right place.

In this episode, Kirstie breaks down what attachment theory is and how your attachment style impacts your relationships.

We also discussed the four attachment styles, which actually have different names for children and adults.

what happens when you have a secure attachment early in childhood, but then later you experience a of maybe some sort of trauma like your parents' divorce.

Kiersey offers some tips on resolving conflict in relationships, specifically how to after a rupture occurs. she also shares some tips for parents or future parents on how to help their children develop a secure attachment.

If you're curious about attachment styles or maybe you just want a healthy relationship, this episode is for you. With that, here's our conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (02:20)

Kirstie, so good to have you on the show, welcome.

Kirsty Nolan (02:22)

Thank you for having me, I'm very excited to be here.

Joey Pontarelli (02:25)

This has

been a topic we've wanted to cover for a long time. It's a big topic, are the cover know you have a podcast on this and talk a lot about attachment and everything. I think starting out, what some people who maybe aren't familiar with attachment theory might be wondering is like, why is this important? Like, why do we need to know this? So why is it know your attachment style, to know attachment theory?

Kirsty Nolan (02:45)

You know, as I've gone through my career, it has become more more apparent to me how important attachment is. If we really break it down, attachment is about relationships, right? And we are all in relationships of one form or another, whether it be a relationship with ourselves, partner, a spouse.

an intimate relationship with a work colleague, with our parents, somebody that we bump into in the street, right? We're all in some kind of relationship with each other on some attachment

how we form relationships, how we think about relationships, how we show up in relationships. you know, to put it simply, unless you're like completely isolated, you know, I'm thinking of like what Tom Hanks on his little island with the football, like, sorry, that's my British side coming out with a soccer ball, ⁓ you know.

Joey Pontarelli (03:34)

you

Kirsty Nolan (03:41)

Attachment plays a part unless you're living on that island by yourself. Attachment impacts all of us, which is why it's so important that you have a good understanding of your own attachment style and you know, if you're in a close relationship with somebody else that you, you know, prompt them to understand theirs and you understand their attachment style too.

Joey Pontarelli (04:00)

I love that. no, I love the British accent too, by the way. So you can bring in all the British references. We might not fully understand them as Americans, but we have people listening all over the world. So I'm sure they'll appreciate that. But no, this is so good. Because what I hear you saying is that we all bond with people throughout our day on many different levels. Sometimes it's an intimate bond. Sometimes it's more of a shallow passing bond. And knowing how we show up to that bonding process is really helpful.

Kirsty Nolan (04:02)

you

Joey Pontarelli (04:26)

And so I think, especially with our more intimate relationships, which I know our audience is particularly interested in, because I think, yeah, as we'll get into, there can be a lot of problems that come up with that bonding, in that bonding process. So I'm very much an amateur on this. I'm really excited to learn from you alongside my audience, but you kind of mentioned this already a little bit, but if you would, for anyone new to the topic, like how would you explain attachment in a simple way? You already alluded to it, but is there anything else you would add?

Kirsty Nolan (04:52)

Well, first of all, I want to say, like, you know, you had sent over an outline of what we were going to chat about and when I saw, can you explain attachment theory in a simple way, I thought, yeah, no, you can't really do that. It was quite hard. And, you know, I'll say personally,

I've been thinking about attachment probably for close to 15 years in the work that I do and it took me a long time to really wrap my head around this. It's a concept, you know,

It's really hard for somebody who doesn't work in the field to understand it fully and that's okay. You don't necessarily have to understand it at its most complex level, although it is fascinating. You know, really in its simplest terms, attachment is about our relationships, as I've said before. And attachment theory about

understanding how our early relationships, particularly with caregivers, which is typically parents, but how those early relationships shape how we view ourselves, how we view others, how we view the world around us as we grow and progress through life. So it really is, it's foundational to all of our social experiences throughout the rest of our life.

Joey Pontarelli (06:08)

Okay, no, that makes so much sense. And makes sense that there's kind of an elementary understanding of it, but you can go much, much deeper. we'll be somewhere in between the two. I'm excited to learn from you. But I was curious, like on a personal note, is this something that you care about? Why do you, obviously you've put so much time and work into this. Why do you care?

Kirsty Nolan (06:24)

You know, it's funny that you ask that because that's something that I ask people on my podcast is, know, really what got you into the field are you interested in it? And, you know, some people have these like light bulb moments and I'm going to say that wasn't me. I didn't have this sudden like, wow moment. This is what I need to be doing, always been, I've always loved working with kids. I've always.

Joey Pontarelli (06:28)

honest.

Kirsty Nolan (06:48)

being interested how children develop. as I into my late teenage years, I started studying psychology at and became interested in some children will grow up and behave one way and some children will grow up and behave another. I was looking at some pretty...

unpleasant things, you know, looking how some children will turn to crime or violent behaviors and others don't. And so that then started my like, how do we end up here? do we turn into who we end up being? And that just kind of progressed into a deeper love of psychology. And then when I moved to the States and began working for Chadoc, who I work for now.

specialize in attachment and developmental trauma, that was when I kind of was like, okay, now here's the name for it. Like I've been learning about all of this, but here's the name for do we get from early life to where we are now in our relationships. And yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (07:49)

So fascinating, I'm again excited to learn from you. Diving into it a little bit deeper then, can you walk us through the different attachment styles and maybe how each of them show up in a romantic relationship in particular?

Kirsty Nolan (08:01)

Yeah, four different adult attachment styles. and just to provide a little for the listeners, and if they about attachment theory, there's actually a name for the four attachment styles as they appear in children. And there's a name for them as they appear in adults. So it can get a little bit confusing. Sometimes you might hear them, called by the wrong label as such, but

most people will fall into a secure attachment style people who have experienced caregiving that's been predictable for the most part had emotionally responsive caregivers

know, they have learned that adults can be safe and trusted. They will, as they progress through life and become adults, their adult attachment style will remain secure. And

they show up in relationships very much in the same way. They are able to trust their partner, trust that their needs will be met. They're able to communicate in ⁓ mostly healthy way. know, none of us are perfect and we all have our moments, they're able to kind of navigate those relational challenges in a healthy resolution.

would be our secure attachment style. Then we have dismissive attachment style so that would be adult attachment in a child as and so dismissive attachment style really comes from caregiving that wasn't present and so as a child you really learn to

take care of your own needs, to suppress emotions, they don't get your needs met. So, you know, a baby cries, right, when they have a need. Well, if that need doesn't get met through that crying, that baby learns to be quiet and kind of suppress those big emotions that they're Avoiding the relationship, that relational piece, right? Does that make sense? And so as an adult, we become

We're dismissive. We're still avoidant. It's just, it's called dismissive. so we're dismissive of that relationship. would tend to of push away, maybe even avoid relationships entirely, shut down and not be able to express our emotions in a healthy way kind of struggle with trust issues with regards having needs met

Joey Pontarelli (10:17)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (10:23)

understanding that the person is going to be there for them. So they would really struggle with that. Then we have our anxious or preoccupied attachment style. So anxious is what it's called in childhood and in adulthood it's preoccupied.

And this attachment style really comes from experiences of caregiving that are very inconsistent. So some days my up and they are emotionally responsive. They take care of my We have fun. And then other days not responsive. They're not they're angry or they're You know,

I would almost say perhaps, you know, when there's substance use issues or mental health issues whereby a person's kind of demeanor is very inconsistent. You know, some days we have a good day and we can be there and show up and other days we're having a bad day and we can't show up. so caregiving becomes inconsistent and unpredictable.

Joey Pontarelli (11:14)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (11:17)

And so what happens is then the child becomes very anxious about the relationship. you know, who are you today? Are good mom or sad mom? You know, how are you showing up? And they always have to check in, you know, this is like our clingy child that's checking in or doing things that's saying, hey, do you see me? And so as an adult,

you know, they become preoccupied with the relationship. And might be seeing somebody who's very insecure as we from the attachment field, we would talk about, you know, oh, they're insecure in that relationship. They're, they're very needy. they're in like, are we okay? Did I do something wrong? and find it very hard to trust the other aspect of, you know, is our

relationship good right now? Like are you are you seeing somebody else behind my back? Are you talking to somebody behind my back? So they have difficulty trusting in that that respect. then we have our disorganized attachment style

Joey Pontarelli (12:06)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (12:18)

in adults is now known as unresolved and a disorganized attachment style really comes from of caregiving that are often scary, know, typically there may be abuse or neglect happening.

And the individual gets caught in this, you know, they, can't rely on the caregiver to meet their needs, but they also can't rely on themselves because they are in really in their fight, flight, freeze mode, but you know, they're just in survival and so behavior becomes, as the name implies, very disorganized, like just very

Joey Pontarelli (12:51)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (12:52)

behavior out of children with a disorganized attachment style and so unresolved as an adult kind of shows up in the same way you know real struggle with even forming or maintaining relationships potentially staying in harmful relationships

just constant kind of go between of anxious and avoidant, anxious and avoidant. I need a relationship, but I have to avoid a relationship. And then that just all comes out in these problematic But I do wanna say disorganized or unresolved attachment style rare. It's not as common. You know, we hear a lot of...

You know, one of that you had brought up, which I'm going to touch on is, is like myths about attachment and attachment styles. And, know, in our clinical world, we hear the diagnosis of reactive attachment know, kind of.

thrown around a nowadays. kind of become a buzzword and I think that that's very unfair because a diagnosis of that and having a disorganized attachment style is not very common at all. It's more so that

People, I think, are showing up more in those anxious, avoidant, preoccupied, dismissive styles. we like putting labels on things nowadays, don't we?

Joey Pontarelli (14:10)

yes, yes. No,

this is so helpful. Was there anything else you were gonna add? Yeah, definitely.

Kirsty Nolan (14:14)

No, I,

like I said at the start, like there's really no quick way of describing it. This is, it is in depth. once you start getting a feel for it, I guess one of the things I like to tell people

and this might help them think about those different styles is that view attachment in like a quadrant with our four different styles and secure is where we would like to be, where we have low anxiety about relationships, we have low avoidant, meaning that we are happy to into relationships. And then we have our anxious, which is our high anxiety.

low avoidance so we desperately want it or anxious about it. We have our avoidant where we have any anxiety about it and we highly avoid it so we don't want to be around people and then we have our disorganized which is high in both areas so just another way of looking at

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Joey Pontarelli (15:47)

That's

helpful, that's helpful to see. So basically the two axes are how anxious are you and then how avoidant are you? High, low, okay, that's really helpful. So many questions, which I know we're going to divert, but so one of the things was when you say child versus adult, are we using typical ages or is there some sort of a cutoff where like this age would be considered a child and this age would be considered an adult?

Kirsty Nolan (15:55)

I'm

Honestly don't know the answer to that.

I'm not too proud to say that. I don't know and it would have to be something I would look up. I'm guessing that there probably is somewhere in the research there is an age cutoff. ⁓ My guess would be 18, but it might be later than that. I suppose with more brain research that comes out and as we see the brain is kind of fully matured by late 20s now, it might be later than that.

But yeah, that's interesting. That's a good question.

Joey Pontarelli (16:39)

Yeah, and thanks for your honesty. I'm just curious about that. The other thing I was thinking was kind of relating to my own story and I'll use myself as like a guinea pig a bit throughout this interview to help people learn. So my mom was super attentive growing up, like very much so like put us children like first and better for us, she was like just a super mom and know, always like taking care of us and just providing the best for us. Dad was a little bit more.

you know, removed, just a very hardworking man. Like I admire him so much for that, but not as much, you know, emotionally in touch as maybe a lot of men were back And I know that's a big generalization, but I think that's what he would say and other men I've talked to at that time. So I'm curious like how that might play out, like where you have one parent who's very present and the other one who's not. And then also the second question would be ⁓ if you maybe had a great experience early on and then.

you know, for me, I was like 10, 11 years old when my parents split and it was pretty dramatic and they eventually got divorced. How that might play out, even though I had this early experience of like a, what I could tell like a really good secure attachment, but that was like kind of fractured a little bit later. So I'm curious how, yeah, both those play out.

Kirsty Nolan (17:45)

it's interesting that you give that example of your own because I had a very similar situation growing up and I would almost exactly describe it how you just described yours that you know my dad was out to work 8 to 6 every day very hard working I knew that he loved me loved my brother but as you said like most men gonna guess you and I are somewhat similar in age so

their generation, being a man wasn't about being emotionally there for your kids so much. That was the mother's role and you went out to work and that's just kind of how things were. And you know, we, as part of my job at Chaddock, I had to complete an adult attachment interview to give me my attachment style, my adult attachment style, we know how important it is for

the work that we do that we have staff who have secure attachment styles. And my result told me that I was secure dismissive, so I think I would have to look back at my full results, but I'm mostly secure, but I have this tendency to move into a dismissive style. me,

that sums up what we just described with our parents that, you know, for the most part we can turn up and be secure in a relationship. sometimes we may suppress some of our emotions because of that lack of responsiveness from our dads. And I'm generalizing to you, but that would be my experience. ⁓ And to me, that made perfect sense, you know? ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (19:16)

Sure. Same, yeah.

Kirsty Nolan (19:22)

just because of my own upbringing. And so think to then speak to your second question, it kind of links to what we're talking Because, so my parents also divorced when I was around 15, 16. It's kind of blurry. It wasn't very fun for anybody, right? And...

Joey Pontarelli (19:39)

No, that's what hurt.

Kirsty Nolan (19:41)

When I was thinking about this question earlier today, way I can answer it complicated. There are a lot of different variables that come into play. Now, if you go into any literature research, it will tell you that one of the most powerful...

know, protective factors is having stable, safe relationship that you can turn to during times of distress, right? So I was able to turn to my mom. I was also able to turn to my dad somewhat during that time. And so I was able to navigate that.

stressful situation somewhat, somewhat successfully. Would I say relationships in life have been perfect? No. And could I, if I really dug down deep and was honest, could I say that some of that stuff shows up? Absolutely. for the most part, I was able to move healthily on. Now.

If you take another situation where, okay, parents are divorcing, but perhaps there's domestic violence in the home as well. That's Perhaps one of the parents is using drugs or alcohol. Perhaps there's infidelity in the home. Perhaps they are also going through a crisis and they don't know if they're gonna have food in the next you start adding in all of those pieces on top of...

a somewhat fragile attachment bond, then it becomes harder for us to progress and move through those stressful situations and come out healthy on the other side. Does that make sense?

Joey Pontarelli (21:10)

100%. I remember, I've quoted this before in the show, but I remember reading a study from Turkey where they looked at high school students who, you and as a, as you kind of expect, the high school students who came from divorced families were more likely to struggle with anxiety, depression, and loneliness. But if those students had a good relationship with one or most both parents, they were far less likely to struggle with those things. so, yeah, I totally agree. Like it makes so much sense. And the trauma therapists that we've had on have said exactly what you said that

⁓ what makes trauma trauma, ⁓ one of our trauma therapists that we send people to, she says what makes trauma trauma is really how it's taken care of and after the fact. And so that makes so much sense how that would play out and attachment as well.

Kirsty Nolan (21:49)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And to me, it also speaks volumes to how important other people are. I had a wonderful teacher in my high school who, you know, just...

held space for me and said, if you need me and I'm available, I'm here. If you need a space, you don't need to see me, but here's a space for you. It was that reminder that just because things are chaotic elsewhere, here there's stability and there's predictability, which is what attachment is rooted in, that consistency and predictability and knowledge that if something happens, I've got somebody to turn to.

Joey Pontarelli (22:27)

Beautiful, no, that's so good. And I know we have people listening who maybe have someone in their life who's going through hard time or they've injured trauma and they wanna help them. So that's really helpful to hear that you can just be that person, which I know you guys have more resources of on this whole topic as well. But moving forward, I was curious, do we have general statistics on like many people fall into each of the styles?

Kirsty Nolan (22:46)

There is, I probably should've looked that up too. I know one thing I can say is that, if I'm correct in remembering, is that there are...

Joey Pontarelli (22:48)

Bye.

Kirsty Nolan (22:56)

a lot less people with secure attachment styles than we once thought. So actually there's a lot more people with insecure attachment styles than we thought. so speaks to why it's so important. You know, think particularly in...

like the child welfare system and in the foster care system as to why we need to be identifying people who do have secure attachment styles or predominantly falling into that secure quadrant who are able to then provide that stability for the kids in their care.

Joey Pontarelli (23:29)

I love that. That's so important. That's a big conversation for another time, that ⁓ no, that makes so much sense. And I'm curious, and maybe this is a quick question, like how common is it in your professional experience, if you have incident into this, for maybe young people who come from these families where they've had these adverse experiences of maybe divorce or high conflict at home to develop these ⁓ insecure attachments, is that a pretty common thing?

Kirsty Nolan (23:32)

Yes.

Again, I so individualized. Like it's very hard to make a comment on that as I said, there's so many different variables that come into play. And you know, didn't even mention like our individual differences and like our temperament style and how navigate experiences can all come into play.

I'm sure that there are statistics out there, but I think that...

think that it can be a little bit like fear mongering to label those things because we lose hope then, right? And I think there's this fear that I keep having this saying in my head, this you know, am I gonna turn out like my parents, so many young people are afraid of

one of your points was about you know healing or you know moving towards healing and is hope for healing. It takes some understanding and some some knowledge and self-reflection you don't have to end up like your parents if that's what you don't want to do.

Joey Pontarelli (24:52)

Yeah,

I love that. No, think like victim mentality is a huge problem in our culture. And I understand like why people fall into it. can like our wounds can feel like so powerful. Our emotions can feel so powerful, like they control us. But I love what you're saying here that no, we actually have power these things, even if in the moment it feels like we don't. So we'll maybe go into that a little bit further. But I wanted to hit on quickly the myths and maybe misunderstandings about attachment there. You mentioned one What else would you add?

Kirsty Nolan (25:18)

One of the things I encounter a lot is firstly is like the misuse of the word attached. You know, work with a lot of educators and is particularly with younger children, but it could, I mean, it could also be applied to adolescents and teenagers, but you know, I'll, I'll hear somebody say, ⁓ they're really attached to me. And when we're talking about attachment,

know, if I ask, you what does attachment mean to you? And they'll say, well, yeah, I have this kid who's really attached to me. And as we mentioned before, with the attachment styles, overly dependent on someone and overly...

anxious about that relationship isn't always healthy. And so I try to veer people away from using that terminology keeping the word attached out of what we're talking about and instead, know, I have a child or a student always needs my attention, is always right by my side and those kinds of things when we're describing it. So that would be one of the kind of misunderstandings is that attached

means good because it doesn't always mean good and healthy in the attachment Another one, and I had written this down earlier, is that attachment styles are set in stone and that we can't change. And you kind of mentioned this earlier, you know, think everything that I've learned and read about has taught me that

Joey Pontarelli (26:36)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (26:43)

have a tendency towards one attachment I have a tendency towards secure attachment, but sometimes during times of distress or times when there's relational challenges, I move into that dismissive style. And so the same can be said for someone who

Joey Pontarelli (26:54)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (27:01)

maybe they have the preoccupied or anxious style, right? They're predominantly, or they have this tendency to fall into that quadrant. doesn't mean that they can't take steps to move towards being more secure in their relationships. It takes awareness. it's, again, everything that I've read and when I've talked to people about this, it's you can't fully change it.

Joey Pontarelli (27:15)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (27:25)

but you can be aware of it and that means that you can show up differently.

Joey Pontarelli (27:28)

That's really helpful. And I don't know if this was a perfect analogy. I don't think they're like a one-to-one comparison, a perfect comparison, but it sounds almost like your personality in some ways where it's like, I might have a tendency to be, you know, caloric where I'm just like very hard charging type A, like get things done, like all that. it doesn't mean I have to bulldoze people. Like I can learn to be a little bit more reflective and thoughtful and all of that. Would that be similar?

Kirsty Nolan (27:50)

Yeah,

I think that's a great example. I'm glad you thought of it because I was trying to think of one in my head.

Joey Pontarelli (27:55)

No, you're

good, you're good. You're bringing all the value. I'm here to help facilitate, so I love happens when two people attachments into a romantic relationship?

Kirsty Nolan (27:58)

Boom.

Well, there can be good, bad and ugly, you know, as with most relationships. I think that unfortunately what can happen when two people with insecure styles come together is they trying to seek something from the other person that the other person cannot give them. And happens then

they then start acting in ways.

again, to keep trying to get what they need and it's not getting met. And so the behaviors continue to escalate. And so we end up in this conflict where neither one can meet the needs of the other one. Yet we also can't stop the behaviors that we're doing. know, the thing about attachment styles and insecure attachment styles particularly is that we continue with unhealthy patterns of behavior of those attachment styles that we have.

And so, you know, let me give you an example. Let's say we have an avoidant person and an anxious person in a relationship together. Our anxious person going to be constantly like checking in, you know, hey, did I do something wrong? Did I say something wrong? Should I have done that? Hey, where are you going? Like, why didn't you answer my text message? And the avoidant person who has learned to get their needs met, I have to suppress my emotions and not do that is going to pull away.

Joey Pontarelli (29:23)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (29:24)

they're then causing the anxious person to feel even more insecure, right? And so we're like butting heads with each other and nobody's getting their needs met.

Joey Pontarelli (29:29)

sort of there. Wow.

Wow,

no, no, no, that's fascinating. And so much sense. I remember reading, I forget the book I read on attachment, but it was talking about how there's even like an attraction between anxious or dismissive and what's the right term? Anxious or preoccupied, if an adult's preoccupied. And yeah, why is that? I'm curious, why is there that attraction?

Kirsty Nolan (29:46)

Yes.

Well, you know, it's funny that you bring that up because one of your questions was about recommending podcasts and I did an episode on our podcast, our attachment theory and action podcast Dr. Nima he describes his experience of

this like almost this epiphany of his own childhood and and so on and and how he was showing up in relationships and

was anxious and so was seeking out someone in a relationship who would constantly to that need to be seen, to be heard and so on. And so there was an attraction for him to that particular attachment style. I can't speak for the other person, but he described in our episode, know, unhealthy, it becomes unhealthy.

to me it's fascinating. Like in my world, attachment theory comes up when we work with children and families, right? But as we mentioned at the start, attachment plays this part in all of our lives, all through our adulthood and how we're showing up in our most intimate relationships. there's so much complexity to it. Like you said, it's not just about pushing each other away, but there's this attraction piece and yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (31:03)

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Joey Pontarelli (32:06)

Yeah,

no, there's so much complexity. There's so many layers. That's why, you know, we're only gonna be able to go so deep on this podcast, but I definitely recommend people check out yours and we'll link to that episode that you mentioned as well. No, this is so fascinating. It sounds to me like so much of this is happening on an unconscious level. Like we're kind of acting out of style and any wounds that we have and our personality obviously comes to play all these different things that are upbringing. And so it makes sense that these kind of...

dramas would play out in our relationships and unless there's like awareness and kind of self mastery that's brought to it, can get pretty ugly. what you're saying too about like there's hope you can like learn to love and going back to what you said about that episode that you recorded was, it just makes me think of like this idea of repetition compulsion where we kind of recreate, you know, the familiar experiences that we had in the past. So it almost sounds like he had fallen into that,

I think there's probably parents listening and I'm sorry for jumping around here, who maybe are thinking, know, how do I make sure that I give the attention, the love that need in order to this secure attachment? So can we briefly touch on that? Like any like top tips that you would give to parents listening who are like, just do these things.

Kirsty Nolan (33:14)

Yeah, well of all I want to so use the word which is like a buzzword for me and use the word attention and whenever I talk with parent, a caregiver, a teacher who's working with kids is that

Joey Pontarelli (33:23)

Okay,

Kirsty Nolan (33:28)

The word attention is very tricky because often we fall into the trap of saying, they just want attention. And often we even do this, oh, they just want attention. Like we almost pushed them away. And the saying has flown around the psychology field and relational field for ages, but replacing that word attention with connection is really helpful. so,

You know, when parents, I'm a fairly new parent, she's almost two, and you know what? It's hard. It's so very hard and it's tiring. And you can't always give a child your full attention, right? So my first tip is to parents is give yourself grace. This isn't, our attachment style comes from...

numerous repeated experiences, okay? And you know, if the baby cries for a little bit longer and you can't quite get there right away, it's okay. You know, if your toddler and you can't get there right away, it's okay. What matters most is that you're consistent and predictable in how you show up, okay?

Joey Pontarelli (34:32)

Hmm.

Kirsty Nolan (34:33)

making sure that you're present. when, you know, my toddler is having a hard time, I get down on her level, we pick her up and we, we soothe her and we talk to her in gentle tones. we do that constantly over and over. And so we're, we're emotionally responsive.

So being present, being emotionally responsive, which can also be hard. Being emotionally responsive means accepting that good, bad and ugly. So can handle it when you're happy, I can handle it when you're sad, I can handle it when you're screaming. It's hard, but that's what's gonna create this secure attachment style is being present. And if you can't be present,

allow somebody to step in and be present for you for a minute. You know, it's okay to tap out. It's okay to say, whoa, I need to walk away for a minute so that they get that same consistent response. Does that make sense?

Joey Pontarelli (35:19)

Mm-hmm.

100%.

That's really helpful, thank you. Because I know we have some parents listening and we have people who maybe want to be parents one day, I think it's helpful. what I hear you saying is you don't have to have a perfect grade. You don't have to have this perfect performance as a parent. As long as you of put in the reps and try to do the best you can. But not just do the best you can, you're, like you said, using the word connection, you're connecting with your child in these different struggles, in these different moments. You're there fill their needs in inappropriate ways.

I love that and gosh, there's so much more I could talk to you about.

Kirsty Nolan (35:55)

just wanna say that can be applied to our adult relationships too. You and I began this conversation thinking about how do we support maybe older teens who have gone through hard experiences with their parents. And again, attachment applies to all of us. it's not, you're right, it's not about being perfect or getting a perfect grade in parenting or as a spouse, as a boyfriend, girlfriend.

Joey Pontarelli (35:57)

Sure.

Kirsty Nolan (36:19)

It's just about being real and it's okay to say, I messed up.

what can we do differently? Or I don't know how to respond right now. just, can we sit for a minute and see if we can figure this out together? even I'm really upset right now and I need a few minutes, but then I'm gonna come back to you. And following through with that, that's the biggest piece is that follow through too. We call it in the attachment field, we call it rupture and repair. And so ruptures happen all the time in every situation. It's how we then repair it afterwards.

what's important.

Joey Pontarelli (36:54)

Any tips on that? Because a lot of the people listening right now, if they came from a family where there was a high degrees of dysfunction, they, especially like in the marriage, they probably didn't see that handled super well. So any quick tips on the repair side of it?

Kirsty Nolan (37:06)

yourself time, one of the first things we all need to do is calm down and so when a rupture happens it's okay to say need a minute or I need 20 minutes or I need half a day I need some time to regulate myself and yourself you know what do really want from the situation?

What is your ultimate goal? our kids it's always, to teach them or punish them? so asking yourself again, whether you're with your child or with your spouse, like what is your goal in this situation? what do you need in this situation in order for the repair to happen? And then being ready to listen to the other person's perspective as well.

Joey Pontarelli (37:46)

Which often, yeah, which obviously requires empathy, but often a lot of humility because the ego can like wanna just win you know, prove your point. So I definitely have, you know, wrestled with that in my own relationship, especially in my marriage, because it's like, man, it is, yeah, it's easy to make the other the enemy when they're not. It's just the problem's the enemy or whatever.

Kirsty Nolan (38:05)

Absolutely and and recognizing that Just because you showed up one way in one moment doesn't mean that that is who you are or who you have to be but it does take like you and vulnerability to go there reflect on those pieces and how do we

how do we recognize them, acknowledge them, how do we embrace use them as a way to guide us to show a different way.

Joey Pontarelli (38:31)

So good. On that note, you mentioned before that even if two people who have an insecure attachment are in a relationship together, they're able to build something healthy. What would you say are, I don't know, maybe your top tips on kind of healing and moving toward like building a healthy relationship, even if maybe you didn't see that growing up or you have an insecure attachment.

Kirsty Nolan (38:51)

Well, I think firstly, I will always recommend individual therapy. So not couples therapy initially, individual therapy with somebody who knows about attachment theory and being able to work through your own stuff first so that you know how you are showing up in the and then moving towards some kind of couples therapy.

I mean, if you really want to address it, that is what I would recommend. Some people are able their own research, do their own learning, and that's okay too. sometimes it takes someone outside of yourself, outside of the relationship, to help navigate those to almost be your base.

to go to and someone who can say, yeah, I see what you're going through. I see that you're working through some hard stuff. here for you. Like that's kind of how they're acting in that space. individual couples therapy and then learning, you know, how to be more self reflective. Those would be my tips.

Joey Pontarelli (39:53)

Beautiful, no I love that. Well we're at the end of our time together, but I want to make sure people know about everything that you guys are offering. So yeah, please tell us a bit about what you offer how people can follow you.

Kirsty Nolan (40:02)

Yeah, absolutely. So I actually host the podcast Attachment Theory in Action. And you can find us at AttachmentTheoryinAction.com. And I work for an organization called Chadoc, and we support children and families who have been impacted by developmental trauma and attachment disruptions. so if your listeners know anyone that needs support in those areas, they can find us at Chadoc.com. And

They can also find me on Facebook in the Attachment Theory and Action Network group if they would like to join.

Joey Pontarelli (40:34)

Beautiful. Thank you so much. want to give you the last word. What final maybe encouragement or advice would you offer to everyone listening, know, those teenagers and young adults who come from divorced or dysfunctional families who've really struggled because of that. final word would you give them?

Kirsty Nolan (40:47)

say is What you're going through right now is very hard. If you can find the space be a little vulnerable and embrace some self-reflection and kind of truths yourself, about...

family life and about where you want to be and where you see yourself, definitely hope for healing in the future.

Joey Pontarelli (41:12)

That wraps up this episode of This Podcast Has Helped You. Feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people that way. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We really appreciate that that also helps people the podcasts.

closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that build a better life and we are here to help.

And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who can't go back change the beginning, you can start where you are change ending.