#156: Her Husband Was Addicted to Porn—Here’s What She Did | Heather Khym
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Heather thought her family life was normal. But over time, she uncovered two buried traumas that quietly shaped her childhood—and required deep healing.
Years later, as a newlywed, another wound came to light: her husband’s secret porn addiction. It shattered her—but it also became the turning point for restoration. Heather now calls it both the worst day and the best day of her life.
In this episode, we dive into:
Why she didn’t leave, and the non-negotiable conditions she set to even consider staying
Her advice for women facing the same gut-wrenching discovery, and for young people who just found out about a parent's addiction or affair
Her biggest lesson for anyone from a dysfunctional family—and the practical steps she recommends to start healing
If you’ve ever found yourself wounded or betrayed, wondering if healing and restoration is possible, this episode is for you.
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
Joey (00:51)
Welcome to the Resort Podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Heather Kim. She is the co-host of the internationally popular Abiding Together podcast. She and her husband Jake are the co-founders of Life Restoration Ministries in British Columbia, Canada.
She has more than 25 years of experience as a speaker and retreat leader, offering workshops and conferences in the United States and Canada. Heather attended Franciscan University of Steubenville, my alma mater, and she lives with her husband and three teenage children in British Columbia, Canada. Growing up, Heather thought that her family was normal, as all of us do. But over time, she uncovered two buried traumas that quietly shaped her childhood and required deep healing. Years later, as a newlywed, another wound.
to light her husband's secret porn addiction and absolutely shattered their marriage. It shattered her world, but it became a turning point for restoration. Heather now calls it both the worst day of her life and the best day of her life. In this episode, we dive into how she responded to her husband's betrayal and the emotions no one saw coming, why she didn't leave and the non-negotiable conditions that she sat to even consider staying. Her advice for women who are facing the same gut-wrenching discovery
and for young people who maybe just found out that a parent is dealing with an addiction or maybe even an affair. She also shares her biggest lesson for anyone who comes from a dysfunctional family and some practical steps that you can use to start healing. And so if you've ever found yourself wounded or betrayed, wondering if healing and restoration is even possible, this episode is for you. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who has been listening to this show knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast wherever you're at. I'm glad that you're here.
If you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip the God part, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode. And with that, here's our conversation.
Heather, so good to have you in the show.
talk about this a little bit later, but I know we were recently together at Dr. Greg Bataro's conference and summit. And I have to say the talk that you gave and Jay gave was the best talk I've ever heard on healing. And I've heard a few, so I just wanted to compliment you on that. And we'll talk about that a little bit later. But like you, you had mentioned in your talk that you just kind of get right at it. We do the same on this podcast. So I want to go kind of back in time and just talk a little bit about life growing up. what was life growing up like and more specifically, what sort of trauma did you sustain growing up?
Heather (03:22)
Yeah, well, I grew up in a faith-filled family. My parents are devout Catholics, and so church and stuff like that was a regular part of our family. ⁓ And from the outside, I think probably we looked like an ideal family, but we're just like any other family. You know, there's a lot of things underneath the surface and not that they were being specifically hidden somewhere, but some was just, you know, life happens. And I find it interesting that often
Even with some friends of mine, I was reflecting recently, I was like, I don't know if I've ever heard their whole story, you know? Like the whole thing, like just in one shot. Like you get snippets here, you're sort of like over the years piecing it together. But there is something about hearing someone's whole story, which I'm not going to tell you my whole story right now. The listeners are like, boy, I'm going to pack a snack here for this one. But I think there is something powerful about hearing someone's whole story because usually there is so much more under the surface than we would ever know. And so, yeah, so for us, there was
a lot of traumatic events that had happened. began when I was three months old. had an older brother who was seven who passed away. And it was a tragic accident that occurred at my dad's work. And because I was three months old, for the longest part of my life, I just thought that affected everybody else in the family but me, you know? And in no way do I want to be like, I'm a victim, you know, and all the things. there is a reality that I think I would often approach things in my story as like, that's not a big deal.
people have it worse than me, you know, and I would almost use that to dismiss any impact, any negative impact that had happened in the story. And over time I realized, you know, it wasn't just the rest of the family that was impacted by that. When you come into a family that is grieving, you know, there is an impact, especially on a baby that's looking to, you know, bond and, you know, all of that stuff. And I was very loved, very well loved by my mom and dad. So it's not that.
But I think just from the very beginning, there wasn't a lot of extra emotional resources available for me. So I grew up just sort of learning very quickly that I need to kind of keep it together. I need to take care of certain things myself because there's only a certain amount of bandwidth. That's not to blame my parents or my siblings. That's just a reality, you know, of what they, the trauma that they were going through. They didn't have extra, you know, to give. And so that was kind of the family I grew up in. was loved.
And also, that set the tone for a lot of other things. had another, I have a brother and a sister, and I had another brother. He was the one that passed away. So the brother and the sister that were alive, they obviously had experienced that as a very traumatic event, which impacted them. so specifically with my older brother, he's five years older than me, that event caused my family to move around a lot. My dad had to find another job because this accident had happened at his job. So my siblings being older, they were moving from school to school and, you know,
was a lot of bullying that happened with my brother and all of that. So he's being impacted and I think we've all heard, you know, the phrase hurt people will hurt people. my brother was hurting and I was the younger sister who ended up catching the brunt of a lot of that, which this became a very quiet but intense experience within the family. So no one else really knew the extent of what was going on, but I was experiencing it. in his
attempt to find control and, you know, to, I think when you experience something that's so far out of your control, but also dealing with his hurt and his anger towards God and, you know, all of those things, like he, got involved in the occult, so just like dark, you know, practices. And whether you believe in that or not, you know, I think there's just something to be said about that sort of mindset when you're focusing on evil and powerful things and just grasping after control and power and how that can
impact other people around you, especially someone who is vulnerable, which was me. And so as a result of that, you know, I ended up living several years just in fear, you know, and that was a tactic that he used for control. And I don't know if he really even knew exactly what he was doing, but it just was what happened. And so he would tell me, you know, just horrible things that were going on, things that would scare me. But then he would also say, you know, if you don't keep this quiet or if you tell anybody.
like I'm going to end your life. And it sounds very dramatic to say that even for me saying that now. I think there was a lot of disconnect for me that happened as a result of all that, cause it's so intense. You know, you're like, what kid has to hear that as a part of their daily life, you know, like growing up. And so I just lived in a lot of fear. I spent a lot of time awake at night, just fearing the dark and what was hiding in the dark, you know, and just all the stories and the things that I was seeing and
amount of rage and anger that he had that I just felt like could be unleashed on me or my family, you know, at any time. And in a sense, you know, me staying quiet was partly protecting myself. Like, I don't want him to get angry. I don't want this, you know, to escalate so I'm going to stay very quiet, not just with my words, but I couldn't give anyone a sign that I was struggling. And I think within a lot of families,
You know, secrets are very powerful things and they're under the surface. And there's a lot of suffering that goes on just because of secrets. And because of the secrets, no one could help me. But I also felt like I was protecting myself and somehow everybody else in the family. And that was a role that I ended up taking on because of all that was I need to be vigilant and watching out for anything bad that might happen. there was two impacts. One, I'm growing up thinking,
I have to be quiet. All my emotions got quiet. became very, just like my inside, my outside was not matched up. ⁓ Struggling, no one knew. then at the same time, I feel like it's my job to protect everybody from the bad things, you know, that are all around me. So I would say those two stories, my brother passing away, which impacted everybody, including me, the not having emotional resource available, learning, you know, just
I got to figure this out and I'm on my own. Those things just took a deep, deep root in my heart and impacted then the choices I made and how I lived after that.
Joey (09:42)
Wow, no, so impactful and thank you for sharing so much and I definitely haven't been through that exactly but I definitely can relate with secrets and with ⁓
you know, being impacted at a young age. There was a story I heard recently from a trauma therapist that we work with that we refer people to, Margaret Vasquez. We were talking a bit about this whole idea of explicit versus implicit memory. So for everyone listening who's maybe not familiar with that lingo, our bodies essentially have memory, even if we can't cognitively recall like a picture or a specific instance of it. so she, Margaret, I think was working with a patient with a client in trauma therapy. And this particular client kept saying that she was having this nightmare, this odd nightmare where
she felt like she was just like in a hole kind of grasping for air, trying to like get out of the hole. Didn't make any sense to her. So Margaret asked her like, you know, when you were a baby or when you were younger before maybe you had like this explicit memory, did anything happen to you? It was no or the, and she was like, no, like honestly, there's nothing that happened to me. So Margaret went back and said, well, there's only family members you can maybe talk to to see if something happened. So her parents weren't around or she wasn't on good speaking terms with them, but she had an aunt.
who she was able to call and so she called the aunt and she's like, hey, did anything ever happen to me that maybe would replicate this sort of dream I'm having? And her aunt was like, well, to be honest with you, we never told you this, but when you were like three months old, this kind of freak accident happened. And she might've been a little bit older than that, but essentially what ended up happening is she actually fell into a well, like a water well, and was stuck at the bottom of this well, like literally in a hole.
kind of grasping to get out and one is unable to get out. And they eventually got her out. ⁓ but again, it was before any sort of explicit memory. So I think all the, powerful lesson that I hear from you and from this story is that like what happened then matters even if we think it didn't. And so I think that's where like, especially this whole journey of healing, ⁓ has to eventually take us is to those places of even the implicit memory.
Heather (11:38)
Yeah. And I think just one practical way of people are like, well, what does that look like as you get older? Like, how does a wound like that, like just your brother passing away, feeling like you need to do it on your own or, whatever, what does that look like? And part of it is, I think it's like, I don't want to burden anybody ever, ever, you know, so I will take care of so many details, so many things that might potentially impact someone else because I just, somewhere deep within, there's this belief that they probably won't be able to handle that.
I don't want to be too much for them. I don't want to put any more burden on them than they might be able to handle. And that's a consistent lens that I still recognize as being healed over time, but I still recognize that's sort of a default that I have to work against and go, no, there is space for me to also have needs and to bring those into certain relationships, especially marriage and family and people who are actually wanting to come alongside and take care of me as well.
Joey (12:36)
Yeah, no, it's such a point. I've even seen when people fall into addictions or just really bad behaviors, bad habits. Sometimes as odd as it might sound, that becomes like a way of protecting others from the mess that's inside of them. It's like instead of taking my messiness out on my family or my friends or my spouse or whatever, I'm going to in some ways take it out of myself. I'm going to damage myself. I'm going to hurt myself even not doing it physically necessarily in this example, but there certainly can be a case of just.
I don't know. Yeah. Like a protection that is virtuous in some ways, but it's the outlets bad, right? The outlets not healthy. And so I love what you said about there being a proper way of doing that. Any thoughts on that before we move on?
Heather (13:15)
No, I just think that's very, true. I think that when we have pain, I think what I used to tell myself was, you know, I'm taking care of it. I don't need to look at that. And somehow if I wasn't looking at it, it wasn't going to impact anybody, including me. And the reality is, that's just not true. It doesn't just go away. We don't just put a lid on it and shove it down and then it's not impacting anybody, whether we see it or don't see it. It is going to come out in some way, or form.
And so, I do believe that people can experience freedom and healing on a very, very deep level. have a ton of hope in that area. so, ⁓ as difficult as it can be to go under the surface or to take the lid off something, when you have the right people accompanying you through it, I do believe that there is real freedom to be found.
Joey (14:00)
I love that. That was one of the things I learned from Dr. Batara when he came on the show. We were just talking a little bit about the subconscious and how, you know, he was quoting, I think jump all the second. He said that all these experiences we go through in life kind of get lodged in our subconscious and then our subconscious more or less, you know, dictates the way that we think, act and feel. And so if you're walking through life and I've been there many times and you're really like, I don't know why I think or feel or act this way. Chances are, like you said, there's some work to be done.
going underneath, going into the subconscious and healing the twins, which is, we're gonna talk about that. One of the things I wanted to talk about was the point you made a little bit ago about like hearing the whole story. I think it's just such a fascinating idea even like with ourselves because so often, you we see ourselves in like these kind of fragmented ways. We think of like the highlights or maybe the...
the low lights, like the horrible parts of us, but we really are like all of that. And that was something that your talk did so well. You and Jake's talk, this one I saw you guys recently did so well, just talked about how, like you're all of that, and you can be loved and you can live a healthy life even though all of those things happen to you. Recently, just to tie this up, I've been thinking more about forgiveness and how I've heard a quote recently that said, it's hard to hate up close. It's hard to hate up close.
So like, if you really feel a lot of anger towards someone, if you actually get to know them and start to have compassion on them, it can be really transformative because it's hard to hate up close. It's hard, know, often, especially in this like social media world, online world, we feel so much anger towards other people, towards other views. But if we actually got to know them, you're like, wow, we're actually not totally different. We see things differently, but we're, we're both human. I think we need to do that with ourselves too.
I think it's, you know, we can even like hate ourselves in so many ways. so kind of, again, going into the subconscious and getting to know ourselves, like that whole self-knowledge, I think is so helpful and important. And so I love that whole point that you said that, you know, kind of knowing our whole story, just like another person is one of the keys to beginning to heal.
Heather (15:55)
Yeah, and getting to know those parts with hope, the hope is that we can approach those parts of our story with compassion and curiosity. I think when we experience deep traumatic events, it is a common thing to dissociate from them. So to just sort of like separate, like you said, fragment it, like put it into a category and almost like tuck it away. Like that was some other part. I don't know. Like maybe we can't make sense of it for me. I know it almost felt like a movie.
almost felt like a movie of somebody else's life that I had this distant recollection of. And I don't know how to describe it other than I went through the majority of my life saying for a lot of years, no, I had a great family. They're the best. Like, they're the best. know, and that was the story. And it wasn't until later I was like, holy smokes, I have to
look at this and you know, interestingly, what really triggered the deep work of that was when I had my own kids and I was looking at my, just happened to glance over, was sitting on the couch in our living room and I glanced over at my daughter who was 12 standing in the kitchen and that's how old I was when a lot of this happened with my brother. It was over the course of a few years, but I was at that age and I looked at her and it just struck me so hard. It was like the lights went on and I thought, my gosh, that's how old I was.
And then I thought, what if that happened to her? I just began, like tears just started to well up in my eyes, just imagining if that happened to her because she was so little, like so innocent, so sweet, you know, she would be terrified. Like I just suddenly could see my own story through a lens that I had never been able to see it before. And it was actually really beautifully helpful.
Joey (17:33)
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So good. I want to get deeper into like your own personal healing, but, ⁓ I want to maybe shift a little bit for a second toward marriage and kind of what happened with you guys. Jake's been on the show. Jake was on the show and episode one 20, for anyone who's not familiar, Jake is, has husband and he told the story about what happened. But for anyone who hasn't heard that episode, what happened a couple of years into marriage for you guys?
Heather (18:32)
Yeah, so we had met at university and I think because we both, I think we've always just been kind of deep people. And there was a certain amount of vulnerability that was always, always there. And I would say to the degree that we knew and understood our own stories, which maybe wasn't a lot, you know, at that point compared to now. And so when we were preparing to be married, I knew that Jake
I knew some of the traumas that he'd experienced when he was young, but to be honest, not a lot of them. And I think it's because he hadn't really uncovered those things himself, what it actually meant. Some things seemed normal to him. And it wasn't until later that he got a language around it was like, wow, that's not normal. You know, what happened to me and my family. And so one of the things that he was struggling with or had historically struggled with was pornography. And so I knew that when we were dating, but it was sort of like, yeah, but I'm not struggling anymore.
some time, occasionally, you know, it's an issue. And I have to also say, like, that was the time when the internet was just starting to be available to everybody was when we were engaged and kind of that, you know, beginning part of our marriage. It was just like a couple of, it seemed like, I don't know, a few years old or something like that. So it wasn't super familiar as it would be now. And so my even understanding of that was like, okay, I'm just going to believe what you're saying. Like, it's not really that big of an issue. I remember saying to him at the time,
know, it's important to me before we get married, before we have kids and all of that, that we really try to heal from things, not bring certain things into this relationship and into our family. And he was like, yeah, totally, like totally on board. You know, I just felt like, gosh, this is so awesome. Like we're just on the same page about everything. And you feel like you've talked about everything and you get married. You're like, wow, like this is amazing. And I remember saying to him one day, ⁓
like a couple years in, said, do you think we're still in the honeymoon phase? You know, people say that. And I remember we were on our way to a movie and I was like, I don't think we are. Like, I feel like we talk about everything. Like there's so much, honestly, like what else could we talk about? So naive, so young. So I was like, my goodness. And it was shortly after that, that ⁓ we were having a conversation in our room and he was talking about how he was helping another guy through
a marriage issue that he was having that kind of revolved around pornography. And he said, yeah, I told him, you know, that he should go talk to this priest because as I mentioned, you know, we're Catholic people, so priests can be kind of like a guide or like ⁓ sometimes even like a counselor in some ways as you go and confess things that are going on to them. And he said, yeah, I told him to go talk to this priest because he's really good with that particular issue. And there was something in me, there was things along the way, I would say, that were like,
I was questioning and sometimes I would ask him and he would just say, it's not an issue. Why are you even saying this to me? He would get kind of defensive. But that day I said, how would you know that? How would you know that? And he just looked at me and there was this extra long pause and I was like, no, I could just feel myself like brace yourself. Like here it comes. And, and that day, ⁓ he just confessed that it was a, still a massive issue, that it was an addiction, that he had been struggling with the entire time. And
And I can say now in hindsight, that was the worst day and that was the best day also, because at least it was real. And it being real is really important to me. Like of all the things that probably are hardest for me, lying would be right at the top of the list. Like I just need honest and I need real. And the news was devastating for a lot of reasons. And I just want to comment on, think in today's world, it's so common.
that to be a struggle for people. It's so incredibly common. I think just because we have, you know, phones in our pocket, it's accessible to us at all times. There's no limits. There's no boundaries. There's anonymity. There's hidden, you know, all of the factors are right there for this to be an issue for people across the board, men, women, you know, across the board. I get that. And then it wasn't the same kind of like, it didn't have the same
Yeah, you know, that's just typically what people struggle with, you know? And the comment that I want to make about that is not that it was more challenging than I think that maybe we've, we just become desensitized to actually how painful of a dynamic that that is and how hard that is on a marriage. Because the reality is it is infidelity. It is a form of infidelity, you know, even though it may not be like a physical thing that's happening.
it is, there is things happening. You know, there is unfaithfulness to the vows, I promise to be true to you, I promise to be faithful to you, you know, I will forsake all others. Like all of those things, whether you're a believer in the faith or not, like those are vows that people make when they get married. that was ultra clear to me at that moment. I was like, this is a break in our vows. And that's what was so shattering about it. I'd been lied to.
deceived on multiple occasions, being looked in the eye and told one thing and something else was going on. I felt duped. And yeah, I think most of all, I just felt betrayed, like just as anyone would if there was any kind of infidelity in a marriage. so yeah, I remember saying something within the first day. I remember saying something like I was choosing to say this because I was so angry and hurt, so angry and hurt. But I remember saying, I just need you to know.
I love you, but this is not the kind of marriage we're going to have. And I wasn't ⁓ threatening, you know, it wasn't like that. It was just, this is the truth. This is not the kind of marriage that we are going to have. This is not what I signed up for. yeah. And then the impact of that, you know, there's a thousand things we could talk about as an impact of that.
Joey (24:30)
Wow, no thanks for sharing and I know, gosh, I can't imagine how difficult a time that had been for you, for both of you. I'm curious, perhaps a lot of people listening are thinking of this question. A lot of women perhaps in that situation would have reacted differently. The world, especially today, even if you've made those vows and you've promised your life to the other person, a lot of people would say, just leave, just go start over, find someone else, not worth it. Why did you stay?
Heather (24:57)
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, one of the clearest reasons from the gets not the only reason and it's not even necessarily the primary reason, but we had a daughter, she was, I think, three months old at that time or two months old, something like that. And there was a part of me initially that just thought if I had only known before she was here, this would be different. I'd be out the door, you know, but I don't even know if that's true. That was just the thought that I had, you know, at the time, like, this child is gonna make me fight for this.
because I care so deeply about her now. Which was a weird thing for me, actually, because I wasn't a babysitter, I didn't have younger siblings, I had zero experience with kids. I wasn't the type of person that was dreaming of all of these things. I didn't know what that was like, so I didn't even know how to dream about it. But when she arrived, I was wrecked in the best way for her. I just loved her so much, instantly. It took me by surprise how much I loved her.
was the initial thought was like, she deserves for us to fight for this. And so we're that that's what we're going to do, you know, at least that was my decision that that's what I'm going to do. And I was hoping that Jake was up for it. And that was really the second reason why I stayed is because he was, we both were committed to a process. He did not want this to be in his life. like, what a beautiful thing, you know, that he was like, very honest about
Like I remember in the following days just how many tears I cried, but I also remember how many tears he cried. Like hurt people, hurt people. I'm going to say it again. I know that that phrase can sometimes be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's, just so true, you know? And when we understand someone's story, it can give us compassion and give us some understanding. It doesn't mean that, you know, then it excuses all behavior because now there's this reason, you know, as to why it happens.
Jake was hurting too. There was reasons why, you know, and he probably talked about it in the podcast with you or there's other podcasts he's shared about it, like there was things that happened in his childhood, things, you know, he was exposed to pornography at a very young age before he would even know that it was wrong, that that got its hooks in him at a very young age and just like any addiction, you know, if you think about if you were a little kid and you started drinking alcohol, like that's crazy, you know, but somehow for this one,
just sort of like, well, you know, it seems to be so common, so familiar, ⁓ but it's horrible. And it was destroying him interiorly. He hated living a double life. He hated that. Like, it was tearing him up. And it was like, either this is coming out now. And I think that really was the decision that he was sitting with in that moment when I said, how would you know? He said, have a, he goes interiorly, I was like, okay, I have a choice. Either I hide this forever or
it's going to come out right now and we're going to see like if this can like, if I could get out of this, like if I could ever be free from this. so thank God that that was what he really wanted. And so he was willing to do the work. He was willing to expose the depth of what he was going through to some people that could help accompany him. And to be honest, it wasn't me. I did not want to hear all of that. I couldn't hear all of that. I couldn't hear
details. I didn't want to know because I knew there was a lot I would never forget. I was like, there were some things I needed to know for safety reasons, you know, for like our child and like, I'm like, okay, what are we talking about here? But at a certain point, I was like, I can't be the one because, and even in the decisions that get made, was like, Jake, you have to tell me, like, and tell the people that are accompanying you through this, what you can and cannot do.
right now, like to safely get yourself out of this addiction, you know, to start doing the work for it. So it's like, can you have internet in your home? Like, don't, don't make me be the police officer to put restrictions on you to tell you what you can and cannot do. Like you have to be honest and you have to choose it. And thank God he did, you know? So I would say that's probably the biggest factor. If Jake had said, you know, sorry, this is just who I am. Like you're going to have to deal with it. Then no, I would not have stayed.
And that's a painful thing to say. I think when I was younger, I probably would have been more ⁓ naive about dynamics in marriage, you know, and I would say, no, you just got to choose to stay when you make vows, you know, they're for good. Like, there's just not an option, you know, it's not an option. And I do believe that in many circumstances. I believe that vows matter a lot and they're forever. ⁓ But I also think sometimes the decision is made for you.
by circumstances. You know, not everybody is meant to stay in a relationship that is going to be perpetually painful or abusive or, you know, infidelity is happening. So I have a lot more compassion, I think, in all of that now for people.
Joey (29:53)
No. I, you know, and like you said, well, there's definitely a difference between maybe staying in a really like bad, unhealthy, even dangerous situation and staying true to your vows. can still say true to your vows and kind of exit a dangerous, difficult situation. That's not good for me, your kids. So yeah, we've talked about that a bit on the show, but I appreciate you sharing all that. And, ⁓ yeah, definitely so impressed by you, Heather, especially your ability to like look beyond your own pain. Like I'm sure you'd say it was like God's grace, but, that's yeah, that's profound. And, ⁓ yeah, Jake is.
blessed to have you. I'm curious, what's your advice for maybe a woman who finds herself in that situation? I know you touch on some really good principles and lessons, but I'm sure you've had women come to you who say like, this is my situation, this is what's going on. What do you typically
Heather (30:36)
them. mean, it's complicated in that every story is unique and every story is different. Everybody is coming with different beliefs, you know, like I know a typical belief that a lot of women have in that circumstance is, I'm not enough, it's my fault. That wasn't my belief or my experience. But if that is your belief and your experience, well, then I would say, ⁓ yes, so heartbreaking, you know, that somehow you believe you're to blame.
it's not your fault. Your husband's choices, that's not your fault, you know? No matter what. If you make vows, good times and bad, you keep them, no matter what. Now there might be unhealthy behaviors that you both have to work on, but yeah, that's a tragic thing. So I would say, know, then there, yeah, I would say, yeah, please go to counseling. Like, please, you know, seek out someone that can help you uncover what is in your story that has led you to believe.
that it's your fault, that when people don't love you well, that somehow it's your fault, you know? ⁓ So that would be one thing. I think that there are things under the surface, or there's a lot of women also who are ⁓ terribly afraid. I hear this all the time. I feel like I have to stay and I have to keep engaging in sexual activity with my
husband, even though I feel betrayed, because I'm scared he's going to leave. But they also, in a sense, are betraying themselves. Because how do you give yourself fully to a person when you feel like they have, you know, discarded you in a way? Like that all has to be healed and worked through, because it isn't just an action. It isn't just something that's like, ⁓ we have a drive and you just got to satisfy this thing. There's whether you believe in your in a soul or not, like there, there is an exchange of
persons that is happening in that act. And that requires trust. And when you don't trust and trust is shattered, then it becomes like you're saying something with your body that your heart doesn't believe and your mind doesn't believe and your emotions don't believe. And when that occurs, when you're giving something away that is an incongruent with your inner experience, that can actually be very traumatic also. And so it's almost like more trauma.
gets experienced when we're, yeah, I don't want to say deceiving, but in a sense, it's like we're putting something out there that's not real. I think those things have to be dealt with. We went on quite a journey of a lot of different things. You know, it takes time. It's not a quick fix. It's not like, okay, I'll just choose then not to ever do that again. You know, if it was that easy, Jake would have done that a long time before that, you know. So like, what was going to really stick now? And part of it was absolute honesty, total honesty.
Like I said, not necessarily with me. Honesty with me about the most important things, about the big things. About the details, that was somebody else. We both started going to counseling and he entered into some very specific things. For him also, part of the recovery process was fasting. And so I know that your question was around what do you tell women to do, but I just want to say this quickly because...
There is like a process that you both enter into. His willingness or your willingness, they both have to align like to a certain degree, you know? And it's like, well, we're entering into something and we're actually healing and restoring a relationship. So what we had before is no longer. Now we're back at maybe square one or square two, and we have to be very honest about that. And then there's a courtship and there's, you know, other things that start occurring again, like as trust is being built.
But biggest reality was, Jake, the reality is I don't trust you, nor are you worthy of my trust at this point. So that had to be rebuilt in a lot of ways. My job was to stay open, and that was very hard because what I wanted to do was completely shut down. So for women, I would say if your husband is willing to do the work, then you also have to be willing to grow in receptivity again to him, your openness to him.
Because when we're hurt, we just tend to shut down that's anybody, but women in particular, because of how we've been made, our hearts are receptive in a way in a very particular and beautiful way. I think that's a major area for women that needs to be healed in a situation like this. they have to press into. Like it took effort. It took a lot of different things for me to stay open. Choices, watching where my mind was, watching that I wasn't going to manipulate Jake, hold things over him.
rub his face in it, shame him, diminish him. One thing that someone told us early on, which is just so good, he just said, Heather, Jake is not his sin. This isn't who he is. This is something he's struggling with, but he is good. He has dignity, you know, he's a son of God, like that's part of our beliefs, but yeah, he is not his sin. And I was like, that is something that I have to choose to believe and hold with the utmost respect for him.
even though he didn't deserve it in some ways, you know, it wasn't deserved, it was a choice I needed to make and that ended up being very fruitful.
Joey (35:31)
No, nothing short of heroic. It's beautiful and I'm sure there's maybe men listening right now who are on the other side of this too, who there was a guy who reached out to me recently. His wife was sneaking around behind his back with another man and thankfully they cut it off and
confronted and they're in therapy themselves, but it's a difficult thing to go through and it can go either way for anyone who may be listening, thinking of that. But I love the balance you had here. I won't spend too much time on this, but just between like holding boundaries, holding a standard in place and yet having so much compassion and empathy. think sometimes, like you said, there may be our spouses, women, especially who find themselves in this situation, like you had said, where it's like, I'm just afraid of maybe confronting him or kind of calling it out as like, this is wrong. Like we shouldn't have this in our marriage. We shouldn't have this in our relationship. So, so I love that. And I think
that the guidance you gave of like, if there is ongoing infidelity that's unrepented and that is not, there's no desire to change and something needs to change within the relationship. Hopefully as a step toward ultimate healing, toward bringing the marriage and the family back together, but it will be a long road. I can almost guarantee that. So I love that kind of balance between the two because I think sometimes maybe we go too far in either the direction of compassion or kind of having boundaries and calling people onto like a higher standard.
Heather (36:43)
I do think one of our roles as spouses in a marriage is to pursue being the best version of ourselves. That sounds kind of cheesy, but I think there's a truth there, but also to want that for each other. I really believed even in that moment, you know, of all that could just come in crashing down. just thought, no, this isn't who Jake is. No, this is not.
who he is meant to be. This cannot be where this part of this story ends. He's just going to be addicted to this his whole life. I wanted to fight for him in that as well, as well as myself. ⁓ So I think that that's very, important. And thankfully, it was what Jake wanted. It was what he also believed. remember saying something like, Jake, I married a man and I expect nothing less of that. And in that, I was trying to call out who he really is.
That is who he is.
Joey (37:38)
I love that. When it comes to your marriage now, I'm curious, like give us a little bit of a contrast. What's it like now? And you know, what else did you guys do? You mentioned a few things. What else did you do to kind of get to this point in terms of healing and growing and yeah, kind of rebuilding the relationship, as you said. If you've struggled with unwanted sexual behavior like pornography, I highly recommend listening to our podcast series called Healing Sexual Brokenness. In this series, you'll get tactics and resources from experts to overcome that unwanted sexual behavior so you can find freedom.
It's so relevant for people like us who come from broken families and here's why. One expert found that 87 % of people with a sex addiction come from a broken family, almost nine out of 10. And so if you wanna listen, there's two ways to do so. One, on your podcast app, once you've selected our show, just go ahead and search Healing Sexual Brokenness, Healing Sexual Brokenness, and you'll see the episodes from that series. Or you can just click the link in the show notes, which will bring you to restoredministry.com slash sexualbrokenness and you'll see all the episodes in that series as well.
So again, click the link in the show notes or just search healing sexual brokenness in your podcast app.
Heather (38:42)
Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll zoom out a little further than getting into the specifics of just dealing with that issue. I would say that that what happened there, I mean, Jake really was, I mean, just to wrap it up for people, he experienced like a really profound healing in that in that particular area. So the pornography stopped, you know, he struggling with that addiction stopped like over time. I mean, he stopped looking at it like the day he told me that was it. That was the last, know, and I'm like, how could
People are like, how can you believe that? He lied to y'all. How can you believe that that's true? You know, I know it's true. I know it is because I saw the transformation that occurred, but that wasn't really the issue. It was a symptom of other hurt and things that were going on for him. Like why pornography? Well, there's a whole story under that, as I kind of referred to before. Like he has a whole story of reasons why he was looking to that to fulfill deep longings in him.
wasn't about just like, well, this is so exciting, you know, or whatever. There was very deep longings from when he was a young boy that weren't fulfilled, you know, with bonding and attachment and parents and, you know, just all of that stuff. that really has been the bigger journey that both of us have been on, not just for him, but for me also, like I said, like I said at the beginning, you know, like I was starting to uncover my story. We started to have a language for one,
what healthy living looked like. Sometimes all we know is what we know, and there's a lot of dysfunction potentially in there. It's like, have to learn a new way that, wow, no, it isn't normal to live like this, and there is a new way that we can learn. So that's part of it. Then understanding our own stories, and a lot of that came through consistent counseling, like consistent counseling throughout. Also having good friends who also held this as important for them too. It's not like every single person.
were hanging out with was into this, but a few people close to us who are also doing the hard work of trying to become great people and trying to have great marriages and not settling for mediocre. ⁓ I was like, I want to live. I want to live the full life. I want to experience joy. And yeah, there's going to be a ton more sorrow that comes because life is really hard. Like, I really want to live it to the full. And so that's going to take some work. That's going to take, you know, continual growing.
So part of it is looking to people who you can be inspired by, people who have gone through really difficult things, who can give you a framework for like, what does it look like to struggle and to suffer and why do we do it? And what is the hope that we have? why, you know, like having reasons why we can keep pressing forward. So I think that that was a lot of it too, but.
But the deeper work has been like layer after layer over years, like just uncovering new things and not that this is an obsession for us. We're living life and enjoying things and having kids and going out for dinner and doing all the things that people do. But this was a priority for us was to keep working, keep healing and to begin to understand the language of our own heart and a language around healing.
and why things are the way they are. We became very curious about each other's stories. We made space. Like me finally hearing Jake's whole story one day, like I referred to at the beginning, that was so powerful. It really was. Even though I had heard the bits and pieces, there was one day we were in a counseling session and he said, just, yeah, Jake, I just want to invite you just to share with Heather, like from the beginning, what was happening in your story and in your life.
there's something even for the one telling it when you have space to share your whole story things will strike you in a way that maybe they haven't before and i remember him being moved to tears i sat there just yes just so many tears listening to the pain of his story imagining him as a little boy and what a little boy would
desire and want and long for. And it just gave me like a ton of love and compassion for him and same, then he did that for me as well. And to be able to receive that from the other person is healing in and of itself. ⁓ So yeah, think we now, we have a very deep understanding of each other now at this point.
we're still doing the work. Sorry to tell people, you know, they might be like, is it over yet? How many years have you been married? 25 almost, like in a couple of weeks, we'll be 25 years married. And we still have been doing some intense marriage counseling as it goes deeper and we realize how much we still protect ourselves in belief that the other person might hurt us and these are old wounds beyond each other, you know, they just keep popping up. And so, the work for us now is can we learn to not see each other as a threat?
when we're in a vulnerable position, ⁓ in a vulnerable state in our heart. And that's been very, very good, very fruitful.
Joey (43:30)
Beautiful. No, I love it. I like to think of healing as similar to like fitness, physical health. It's something that's ongoing. It's not like you ever wake up and say, all right, did my last workout today. No longer need to eat a healthy meal. Like I'm good. So it's beautiful to hear even you guys who've done a lot of intense work you're staying at, you're continuing with. And I think it's a good lesson for all of us. A few final questions here. I am curious.
Your thoughts, your advice for maybe a young person listening right now, because our audience is young people who come from divorced or dysfunctional families. Maybe they learned, this is a really common one for our audience, that mom or dad was having an affair or has an addiction to porn or whatever else. I'm curious what you say in particular to that young person who maybe just found that out, who's really like struggling with that.
Heather (44:16)
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the most important things is ⁓ you got to find someone to talk to. Like someone who can respectfully hold that space and that heavy weight with you. So sometimes we'll just tell a friend and that's good. Like you can do that too. But I think it is important to find someone who knows how to help you navigate your way through it. That's been so incredibly powerful for me. And it's like a relief.
when you're sitting in the room with a good counselor or someone that you feel like they can bear the weight of this with you. Like that is so powerful so that it doesn't just become a secret that festers, you know? I think when we keep things in the dark, boy, they get so much bigger than they need to. That it's powerful to be able to say it out loud to someone. It's powerful to, I think in the work that, you know, Jake and I do with people to be people who will sit there and hold it with someone. I remember even my therapist saying to me three years ago, she said, Heather,
I am going to hold this for you. Like even when you leave this office, I am holding this with you. You know, you're not in this alone anymore. And that knowledge alone was like life changing for me. So I think that that is really, really important just to bring some wise people into it. And I also just, if you're willing, obviously I'm a believer in God, you know, but, and God is love. So however we can open ourselves up to a love that is bigger than us, a love that
far exceeds any human failure. That is the most healing thing that I've experienced in my life, and that is available to anyone and everyone. There is a love that is faithful and true and good and kind and gentle and respectful, who honors, who will never betray. And for me, that has absolutely changed my entire life. Because then also Jake's failures or even my parents' failures
or whatever, like they don't have the same bearing weight, they can still hurt me, but that's not the only love that is available to me. Love that fails isn't the only love that's available to all of us.
Joey (46:24)
So good. I did want to share on that note some of a couple quotes from the talk that you gave recently when we were at the conference together. You said this, said, we can read self-help books, we can write self-help books, but nothing will heal truly like the presence of Jesus. This is the most transformative thing I've experienced in my life, sitting in the abyss, being loved by Him.
Heather (46:48)
Well said. I'm like, wow, I said that I believe that, you know, I was like, whoever said that I believe that. No, I could. It's moving me to tears right now. It's true. It's a hundred percent true. And it's not a manufactured story that I'm telling myself to feel better because I've experienced it. It's not just a thought in my mind or a belief that I have. I've experienced the safety, the love, the peace, the comfort of him.
of his presence, and, like I'm saying there, in the abyss. So it's like in the midst of the darkness and the pain. Sometimes we think to experience relief, all of that has to be gone. And the reality is, in certain parts of our life, it's not going to stop. You know, there is always going to be things. It might be this particular thing will stop, or this particular thing, you know, gets healed, but there's always going to be circumstances that are painful where we suffer here on this earth.
is the reality in which we live. There's always a sickness, you know, a break in a relationship, some area of unforgiveness or something that will cause us distress. So it's like that relationship with God, having Him be stable for me in the midst of it all, yeah, it is the most transformative thing.
Joey (48:07)
Yeah, no, I love it. I mean, there's so much we can say here. And over close to end of our time, but I think just this whole lesson that we feel like you said that we need to get our act together that we need to kind of come to God polished and in our tuxedos and our best stress and
you know, I think it'd be further from the truth. And yeah, I loved like the lessons from you and other speakers this weekend, just talking about like, no, actually God just wants to like, not just go to those messy dark places. He wants like rush into that. Like I got the image of like a firefighter running into a burning building or, you know, a special operator who's like kicking in a door, going to like the most dangerous places you can imagine, the places where you really wouldn't want to go. That's what God wants to do. And I know there's people listening right now who may be resistant to a relationship with God, but
Um, yeah, I think, like you said, the human level of healing, it's helpful. It's there for a reason. I think it's, it's a beautiful thing. Like you said, talking to people, even if there's no experience of grace or God, like that, that can be helpful and that's a good thing, but you're going to hit a ceiling eventually. And so that's where I love this invitation to, you know, let the ultimate healer into those.
Heather (49:12)
Yeah, and you know, that's been probably the thing that I've encouraged for even my own children a lot. Like, I love my kids with all my heart. I would never want to hurt them. But I know I do. And I have. And I will. You know, it's not intentional, you know, for me, but I just know that I will fail. I will miss things. I won't see it. I won't be as tender with their heart as they need me to be in certain moments because I'm just missing it. I'm distracted. I'm, you know, focused on other things. And so
know, like I've said to them, obviously, I want to be able to repair, like hopefully they can come to me and tell me those things. also, I want them to know a God who does see them when I don't, who can restore all the things in their heart that have been broken, whether it be from me or Jake or anybody else in there.
Joey (49:54)
Love that. Heather, could talk forever. Maybe we'll have you back at another point, but in closing, I'm just curious ⁓ what maybe healing resources you typically recommend. know you have a podcast if you tell us about that and how people can just view all the resources that you offer and any other you'd recommend.
Heather (50:09)
I have a podcast called Abiding Together. It's with ⁓ my two best friends, Michelle Bensinger and sister Miriam James-Hydland. And sister Miriam, in particular, a lot of people might know her. She has a great book on healing called Loved As I Am, just her personal story of healing. so we end up talking about it, and Michelle, you know, she's, I've been friends with Michelle for many, many years, and we all are just deeply committed to the healing work. So it just comes up a lot, like in our talk, in our conversations, it's very vulnerable.
And we really are sharing a lot from the heart. And I think that's helpful sometimes to just hear other people who are journeying what that looks like and we're very different from each other, which I think is good. Jake also has a podcast called Restore the Glory. That's really helpful in just even understanding what healing is. They have a great little series on, it's called The Anatomy of a Wound. And that's like, it's like, does a wound occur? What is a wound? How does that, you know, turn into other things in our life?
I think that's just great in growing and like, ⁓ I'm starting to understand how this works and then also how healing works. So they cover a lot of topics. And then I would just say, you know, there's obviously in a saturated time of the world right now, there's so much. So I would say instead of choosing a million things, just choose one or two things that are that are helpful and be really sit with them. Let them get deep into you and just begin the work, you know.
And if you don't have anyone to help you, I would just say, if you're a praying person, pray that God would provide. But there is a lot to receive, even if it's not, you know, like the perfect counselor or whatever, it might be a number of different people who can offer you pieces, different parts that will then, you know, turn into your own journey of healing and restoration.
Joey (51:53)
Yeah. And you might be surprised who is in your life right now. Who might be able to help you. That's what it has always kind of been the case with me. ⁓ and even, know, when I haven't been able to find maybe a, ⁓ in my past, like a good therapist, there are mentors who are able to kind of step into that role and really guide me. So totally second that. And I love the idea of focusing. We're out of time. ⁓ I want to give you the final word and thank you again for coming on the show. It's been ⁓ great having you here and yeah, always love listening to you and hearing your wisdom and your realness. Like you said, even rawness, it's so, it's so
good and valuable, especially in kind of the fake world that we live in. What final encouragement, what final advice would you offer to everyone listening, especially if they maybe feel broken, they want to heal, but they feel stuck?
Heather (52:32)
I guess just a word of hope. Now, obviously, we've already talked about situations that might be dangerous that people need to get out of, so I'm not talking about that. But I think just in the journey of healing and the struggles of life, I really do believe it will get better. You never know when breakthrough is right around the corner. It is like in the movies sometimes. think movies speak to the bigger story that is real. They're just like echoes in our heart. That's why they move us so deeply, because they're saying something that we know is true.
Like, so many stories look darkest before the dawn. You know, it's those types of things that we've heard over and over again, but there are so many people's lives, real people, that also speak that truth. It will get better. Not everything is going to crush you completely, you know? It is amazing, the spirit of people that is so resilient, and then what God can do in the midst, I think, we have no idea what God can do with broken things. I'm a big believer in that.
that is the kind of God we have. He is at his best when things are broken, when they're dead, when they're shattered. He is the one who can bring life to all of that.
Joey (53:43)
Like I mentioned, I recently got to see Heather and Jake at a conference and just absolutely love them both. They're amazing people and I definitely encourage you to just learn more from them. Listen to their podcasts. You can check out all the links in the show notes to get access to that. They're amazing people and they have a lot to say when it comes to healing and growth. That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find.
In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
