#157: The Lie Every Child of Divorce Secretly Believes | Jim Havens
What if your parents’ divorce didn’t just split your family—but left you quietly carrying the blame?
Most people think the hardest part of divorce is the day it happens. But often it’s the confusion, the pressure to act like everything’s fine, and the haunting thought: “Was it my fault?”
In this episode, Jim Havens shares his journey of growing up in a broken family, spiraling into destructive choices, and the night everything changed. That turning point led him to healing, faith, freedom, and eventually to becoming a husband, father of six, and Catholic radio host.
We talk about:
Why “just move on” might be the most damaging advice you can get
The moment Jim realized he wasn’t as “fine” as he thought
What one lonely night revealed—and how it changed everything
If you’ve ever asked yourself, “Was it my fault my parents split up?” or wondered if you can truly build the marriage you long for, this conversation is for you.
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
Joey (00:46)
Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. What if your parents' divorce didn't just your family but left you quietly carrying the blame? Most people think that the hardest part of a divorce is the day that it happens, but honestly, it's the confusion, it's the pain, it's the pressure to act like everything's fine.
and lingering thought was it somehow my fault. In today's episode we unpack all of that, especially the unspoken guilt and anger that kids from broken homes often carry for years. My guest is Jim Havens. He was 14 when his parents split and he told himself he'd be fine. He told himself, you know, I know this isn't my fault, but that wasn't the whole story. Over time he spiraled, he made mistakes and tried to fill that hole in his heart until one lonely night.
everything changed. That night led him to freedom. That night led him to healing freedom from his addiction and eventually becoming a husband, father of six and a radio host. And so if you've ever asked yourself, was it somehow my fault that my parents split or can I really build a healthy marriage after seeing my parents marriage collapse? This conversation is for you. Now in this episode, we do talk a lot about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this show for a while knows
This is not a strictly religious podcast. so wherever you're at, I'm really glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you would be this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God parts, you're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. And with that, here's the conversation.
Jim, so good to have you on the show. Welcome. I'm excited to dive into your story. I usually start as, you know, what led to your parents' separation and divorce?
Jim (02:30)
Thank you, Joey, great to be here.
So, yeah, I was about 14 when my parents separated and sat me down and talked to me about that. And then I think I was 15 when they were officially divorced. And so what led to it, hard to know still, but from my perspective as a child, I just remember there was quite a bit of fighting. You know, I remember
falling asleep at night and hearing yelling and name calling and things like that. And so, you know, as a young person, you don't know what's normal, what's not normal. Just kind of seemed like, okay, you know, don't, this is going on. I remember though, a sadness, you know, I remember crying myself to sleep some nights as that was going on. So I don't know, you know, I don't know a lot about what it was all about or what the conflicts were all over. But, but yeah, I know that
It was by the time they sat me down and said, hey, we're gonna be separated. I think there was already some sort of a separation that had occurred for some period before that that I don't really recall. But I think from hearing kind of the story back, there was a period of that. But there was a time, yeah, when they sat me down at this one particular time, the final separation, I guess. And I remember at that point, the sense of good. I mean, I'm 14 at that point, I gotta have a...
You know, I'm carrying some baggage, some anger chip on the shoulder, not knowing where to go with a lot of things, but sort of ⁓ a defiant good. It'll be better, you know, thinking, you know, I'll see you later to my dad and good, the fighting will stop and that will be over. And then also thinking this isn't going to affect me. This isn't going to be a difficult thing for me. I remember at the time seeing various talk shows and there'd be children of divorce on talk shows back then, daytime talk shows.
Seems the culture was kind of dealing with it to some degree. And I remember seeing some of those things as a kid and a lot of it would be the children crying at the big point and saying, you know, them being told it's not your fault, you know, the title, the title of your book, which is so important and is such a big part of my story actually. But at that point, I remember thinking that's weakness. I've seen that I'm not going to be that of course it's not my fault. And this will probably be a good thing.
And that's what I recall. of course, it was not a good thing as things unfolded from there. And I wasn't as strong as I thought or had the ability to handle it like I thought I would. And all that would unfold.
Joey (05:12)
No, thank you for sharing so openly and I'm tracking right with you can relate on so many levels and I think that's one of the particular challenges with divorce and separation is that as children, you know, we don't always know why or on the other end of the spectrum.
we know way too much information about, you know, what led up to the separation and the divorce. And, you know, maybe we're kind of pelted with all sorts of details that just aren't for kids to know that we don't need to know. So I think that's something really, really interesting. And your response is unique, but it makes sense in so many ways, especially kind of given what you had seen around you. I'm curious for context to set the scene a little bit more. How many siblings do you have and what number are you?
Jim (05:52)
two siblings, so an older sister, about a year and a half older than me, and then a younger brother, about eight years younger than me. And so I'm, right in the
Joey (06:01)
That sense. And you said, you know, 14 years old is a separation, 15 years, 15 year old divorce. And how old are you now for everyone? Okay. Nice. And I'm curious too, you mentioned there was fighting. You mentioned there was, you know, it sounded like things got pretty dysfunctional. Would you categorize it as high conflict? Like was there abuse and hitting going on between your parents or like, obviously they were arguing and that's like, you know, could qualify as high conflict. But I'm curious if it was more of something like.
Jim (06:08)
47
Joey (06:30)
Growing up you knew that yeah they fight but everything else is fine or if you knew like no no this is like a bad situation a dangerous situation something needs to change.
Jim (06:37)
Nothing like that. mean there was no physical abuse at all that I'm aware of. It was verbal and it was I think you know it was both sides but there was I would say in particular at that time a lot of anger seemed like my dad was carrying and and they you know they got married when they were young they were 19 and then I think I was probably born you know their early 20s maybe 22 23 something like that so yeah I mean I think they there was a lot
that they were carrying. Again, I didn't realize any of that at the time. Just trying to make sense of what is this life, what is going on here? And so, yeah, I didn't really know what to make of it, but I knew, yeah, that something was wrong. And my dad, he also wasn't, I would say he wasn't around a lot as I was growing up. And so that was also an aspect of it. And then my mom worked.
quite a bit as well and into the overnight as a x-ray technician. So they were kind of like ships passing in the night, I think in a lot of ways. And then we were just kind of in the middle and going to public school and just, parents weren't really around very much. And I guess maybe that was out of perceived necessity financially. I don't know, there was a lot going on there, but yeah, I just knew.
I think looking back that it was very clear. get a real sense of human nature and that look, we were made for love. We want to be loved. And of course in our families, that's where we're supposed to learn all about that, to be loved well and to learn how to love. And when that's dysfunctional and that's not really taking place as it ought to be, then of course there's going to be a lot of problems.
Joey (08:29)
Yeah, you had mentioned how your approach was to kind of muscle your way through it to be tough to be strong You know, thankfully knew it wasn't your fault, which was definitely a good thing But it hit you harder than you had expected Was there a moment when you realized how much it was weighing on you?
Jim (08:44)
Yeah, I guess there definitely was a very big moment for me. Anyhow, a lot of it is all tied up with learning what it is to be a man and your dad not really being there. And then, you you kind of lose all authority structure. So to me, it was kind of just being thrown to the world was the sense of it and finding community with my friends at the time that I think all had various levels of dysfunction.
in their own families that they were trying to deal with and not really knowing how none of us really being strongly centered on Christ, even though I was in a Catholic family, it was mostly going through the motions and not a sense that this was real, not even in the parish life that I was seeing when I would go to Mass on Sundays. So it was almost like an anti-witness. It's like the adults are all telling you, know, kind of playing this game, almost like Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, something that they tell kids and then you grow up and you realize nobody actually believes this.
So that was kind of the sense I had and just being like, okay, well, I'm on my own to sort of figure this out. And what are the images of manhood I see around like professional wrestling and athletes and stuff like that. And then trying to, you know, just figure out life with my friends. But then after high school, was, I was in a situation where, yeah, things, things weren't going real well for me. The fruits weren't real good in my life. A lot of
struggles based on going the way of the world and falling into various things that the world says is pretty normal, but that I would come to know serious sins, you know, and so ⁓ not in a good spot and and a lot of that then, you know, even cracks where this is not even acceptable in a worldly way where at one point, you know, I got I was 19 years old and I was, you know, driving had a little too much to drink and I was driving and I was speeding and I got a DUI.
over the legal limit. so that was happening, things like that. And so there were cracks where it wasn't even I could hide it in a worldly way anymore that things were, that there were problems. So I ended up in North Carolina with my cousin actually, where he was down there a few years older than me. And that allowed me to get away. I just, I was loading trucks for like $10 an hour, not knowing where I was going, what was going on. And then I
prayed sincerely one night for the first time in a long time and what had happened was I just had a quiet, lonely moment, lonely night, which I hadn't had a lot of. Mostly I was going out with friends and stuff every second I had when I was back home. So to be separated from all that was a great blessing. And then to have this quiet, lonely evening where I'm by myself in the bedroom there and I just start writing out my thoughts.
and they focused around my parents divorce. And I never did that before, just had a sense to start doing that. And as I did that, I came to realize some stuff that I wasn't really very aware of. And one of those things that I came to realize is that this, yeah, this was really troubling me deep down. And so came to that sense and started shedding some tears and realizing
Yeah, that I was deeply deeply hurt by all this and there was something more going on here and so Then I just had this sense to turn to God and just say look if you are real I want to know Jesus if you're real I want to know and I'll follow you if you're real But you got to let me know and I did have this overwhelming sense of his presence that was just unexplainable that was just very different and very clear and so for whatever reason I turned in the next moment and and said Mary if you're real
I want to know. And again, had this overwhelming sense of her presence and both in such a way that they were always there. They've always been there with me, just waiting for me to turn to them and they were arms wide open to receive me. So that was a big, a big night for me. And it answered some questions, but it started me down a journey of a lot of other questions.
that I needed to figure out and it's not like I came back to the Catholic Church right after that, I wasn't really sure. And so it led me down a certain path that ultimately though, three years later I did come back to the sacramental life of the Catholic Church and went to confession and received the Eucharist in a state of grace for the first time since I was a little kid. And that's where I did experience a very miraculous experience of the sacramental life and the reality of Jesus and the Catholic Church.
And then that just propelled me from there. But there was nothing easy about any of it. It was an uphill, a very difficult uphill climb out of the mess that I had made of my life. But Jesus is real and he made himself very clearly present to me. I just know without his help, without the fact that he is real, there's no possible way I could have ever changed the areas of my life.
that actually ended up changing in such ways that things that were the biggest weaknesses in my life over time with him became areas of great strength and immense freedom. I would never think that was possible. So that's one of the things of hope that I just want to make sure to always share with everybody that it is real and that you, things that you think are impossible.
for you to get out of. You can, by God's grace, just keep, don't give up, keep going with Him. And there is freedom that is unbelievable that you would not believe is real, but it is real. So just wanna encourage people.
Joey (14:35)
Beautiful. Thank you. That's so good. I, yeah, I'm so happy you had that transformation in your life. You know, some people go years and years and years without any sort of transformation. So it's so beautiful that you had that, you know, relatively soon after everything broke apart with your family. One interesting point that I love your thoughts on. One thing we noticed in the young people we're working with is so often because of the fracture,
at home, the parents getting divorced, separating, or maybe just things being so messy that the parents act divorce, even though they stay married. One of the biggest things I think that is missing or that's taken from us kids in those situations is that we lack like the mentorship and the guidance that we're meant to receive from our parents. And from what I hear in your story, your friends kind of filled that role for better, for worse. And that was the same with me. You know, after my parents split, I didn't trust dad, didn't trust mom, ended up spending a lot of time with my sports buddies who weren't good for me. That led me to, you know,
pornography and other sins and bad habits. But they kind of became my mentor of sorts. And then over the years, my mom definitely stepped into certain roles to her credit for sure. then I thankfully was able to find other men in my life who were able to step into that role of kind of a father figure and helped me immensely. Gosh, I can't say enough good about that. But I'm curious, your thoughts on this whole missing mentorship that we're meant to receive from our parents.
Jim (15:53)
Yeah, it is a very difficult thing to try to, ⁓ I think, make up for. Yeah. Because it's so essential to us that we need our parents. There's a reason that it's designed the way it is for good reason. it would and it does work really well when it's working, when everything is working properly. It's so beautiful. The image of family life that is meant to be. But yeah, there's a lot of.
ways that can go wrong, a lot of dysfunction. I guess, again, I want to say to a big part that was helpful to me was really reflecting on my parents' lives and thinking, realizing that so much that they weren't able to hand on to me, they had not really properly received or understood. And in some ways, even I think of my dad in particular, he never knew his dad growing up. And so in some ways, at least his
presence to some degree, he was able to give me more than what he had. he, I just think, how do you know how to be a father without having a father? It's very difficult. So that's not something I don't think that your friends can make up. Your peers can make up in those relationships, even if they're very good relationships. And mine weren't that, you know, they were good in some ways, but I mean, we genuinely cared about each other for sure. But at the same time, we didn't know.
We didn't know what was good, but we weren't, wasn't friendship based on virtue. ⁓ It was based on having fun and whatever form that takes. so, yeah, it's difficult. If you can have some virtuous male mentors in your life, of course, that's gonna be helpful to some degree. For me, I do wanna make sure that I mention this, because to me, this was probably the most difficult aspect of it all. And that was, and this is not normal, I don't hear this talked about much.
But the divorce was one thing. It was the way everybody handled the divorce which made things much, much worse for me. And that is that acting like, trying to make it seem like it's nothing to see here. Time to just kind of move on and shake it off. And so part of that ended up being with my mom remarrying very quickly and not even... ⁓
you this is important for those who are Catholic will understand that, maybe those who aren't, maybe not so much, but an understanding of the nature of marriage and how even if, you know, you get civilly divorced, if you are married validly in the church, if you have a Christian marriage, then you're still married, it's indissoluble. So there would need to be an annulment of some kind, which is a very process that basically ⁓
would take place to say that there was some sort of an impediment so that the marriage never actually validly existed in the first place. But not that there is Catholic divorce that can make something that is indissoluble, dissolvable. You can't. So there wasn't an annulment that took place, but yet my mom was then dating a guy and then very quickly she's marrying him. And my Catholic family on that side of the family that was definitely the more Catholic
part of the family that had handed on Catholicism to her, they all went along with it. That this was real and good and don't you want your mom to be happy. And I didn't know what the church taught and what was really going on at the time, but I knew something was wrong. Something seemed very wrong about the whole thing. And the pressure of, you know, don't you want your mom to be happy? Can't you just say that this is good? And it's like,
I was at war within myself. Of course I want my mom to be happy. Of course I love my mom. At the same time, something about this is not making me happy. Something about this seems wrong to me. And there was no one with whom I could voice that to or talk about that with or anything like that. It was just this pressure. And so, ⁓ you know, that all went down. Eventually there wasn't an element that would come maybe a year or so later.
I mean, guess then they, you know, you make it right by having the marriage brought into the church, but it was all really based on a lie and a farce that I was being pushed and forced to go along with. And so, ⁓ I think that did, that did some damage and then, you know, that relationship was very difficult with the man she married coming into the home. And, and so I'll share this one story because it is a big aspect of it. And that is that,
Yeah, you know, and again, nothing, I don't want to say anything against him. I also, you I don't know what he's carrying and what he grew up with and all of that. you know, trying to build, I'm still trying to work on building the best relationship I can with my mom and my dad and my mom's husband now and all of that. But I think this is important because maybe somebody has dealt with something similar. And that is, again, I remember the time when my parents sat me down, they were specifically saying, it's not your fault.
And I'm thinking to myself, yeah, I know that. Of course it's not my fault. You know, like why are they even saying that to me? But something seemed weird that they kept stressing it. It's almost like, yeah, somebody told them to say that or whatever. And then when this new man that my mom had married is in the home, there was a tension, just that you're living with this tension every day. And ⁓ just, you not good. And then one day, I guess he decides, you know, he's gonna assert himself. And so he comes into the room and he says,
get out of that chair and give me that remote control. And I was just sitting in the chair watching TV at the time. And I'm thinking to myself, what's going on? There's no way this guy is gonna talk to me like this and I'm not giving him the remote control. So he did try to physically push me out of the chair and take the remote control from me. And at that time, I'm probably 15, 16 years old. I'm developing into a young man physically and
And I've got some anger in me at that point as well. And it's like, there's no way this guy is getting the remote control. And I remember thinking, ⁓ you know, if this guy is going to take a swing, I'm going to win, I'm going to win this fight. And I think that's just what would have happened. But he, what he did instead, and this is what I wrote down actually in that journaling. When I had that time apart, I started writing about this experience and I still have it to this day. I just read it actually before, ⁓
Just to kind of refresh myself. I hadn't read it in a long time. And so I read that again and I wrote in there Yeah about if you would have taken a swing I would have won that fight, but he didn't take a swing instead. He ripped my heart out and he did that by saying What do you want to what do you want to ruin another marriage? Just like you did the last one and that was about as Bad as you could as you could cut me to the heart and so that brought up
It was like, whoa, what did he just say? And what does that mean? so after I had some time to reflect on that, it's like, where, obviously my mom, you know, expressed that to him at some point. And so really, then that did start to, I did start to carry that for a few years until I started journaling that one night that, yeah, maybe I did have something to do with this, you know?
And maybe this is my fault. And again, not being maybe totally conscious of all of that, but that was stirring in me from that point on. And then when I had time to really sit down and think about it again, I laid it out and when I looked at it all, it's like, ⁓ and kind of reflecting on all the reflection that sort of the times that had sort of come up and I thought about it, I realized, you know, there are things that they would fight about that I would hear them fight about a lot of times that were about me, you know?
the day that my report card would come home, not a good day in the family. That might be the night that there's a lot of yelling going on. And so that was maybe sparked by something about me, right? So it's not that I didn't have a role in them fighting about things at times. And it's certain that as a young person, various things that I would have done that would not have been helpful, I'm sure, to...
to the family life. And so, ⁓ yes, were there things that were imperfections and errors and faults of my own? Of course, but does that make it my fault that my parents weren't able to handle things in a healthy manner and be able to communicate well and solve problems and move on together? No, right? So,
Yes, there were things that were problems about me, but no, that doesn't make it my fault that my parents got divorced. And so, and they might, you and I brought that to both of them and the reactions were interesting that I, you know, maybe they do think that, you know, maybe they actually, I mean, of course they're not going to tell, tell me that when I come to them, but maybe my parents to some degree do think that I had a big role to play in them getting divorced. Maybe they don't, I don't know, but even if they do think that,
it doesn't make it true, right? And so that's kind of where I landed on it. And then, and then yeah, you know, a lot of taking responsibility for my own action. So just because that's not my fault doesn't mean there aren't a lot of things that are my fault that took place afterwards that yes, things were harder and more difficult than they would have been if I had an intact, healthy, loving family that had it all together. But at the same time, I made choices that were bad choices.
that also weren't choices that I had to make. So I have to take responsibility for those things. That's why the Sacrament of Confession was super powerful for me when I was able, finally ready to go there and just lay it all out and say, yeah, I'm guilty. I'm sorry for everything. I'm sorry for all that I've ever done. And to just lay it out and to receive the mercy of Christ, that was a first step in some major healing in my heart. And what I needed was a lot of healing.
The guy who thought he could keep it all together and wouldn't be hurt by this, no problem. Man, I was deeply hurting. So you can shove it down and you can try to pretend it's not there and try to ignore it, but it's in there. And I needed to pull it out and open it up and bring it to the divine physician and say, help me. And he was more than willing to pour in graces and blessing. And again, doesn't make it all easy and isn't a snap of the fingers. It's a process over time, but yeah, it's.
Amazing process. So yeah, praise God
Joey (26:48)
This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 430 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that.
horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado, and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary.
or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Black Zone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it. Yeah, no, thank you for sharing all that. I even just the psychological benefits of confession are wild. I think Jordan Peterson was talking about it recently. Essentially he's like, yeah, the Catholic Church has been doing like psychotherapy for 2000 years in the confessional. So it's wild even if you just look at like the human component of like, you know, kind of unburdening yourself of these like...
bad things in your life. So I think there's so much to be said there, but I want to focus on this whole struggle of feeling like your parents' support was your fault. And because I think, like you said, there's a lot of people who feel this right now. And even, you know, I've seen there's different like degrees of this, you know, on one end of the spectrum, maybe you have people who feel like, no, like, I feel totally like it was my fault. I caused it sort of thing. If I wasn't around, it wouldn't have happened. There was a young woman, I gave a talk to some college students and this young woman came up after college students. said, Joey, she's like,
To this day, my dad still blames me for the divorce that happened 10 years prior, saying things like, you kids never were in my life, if it was just me and your mom, then this never would have happened. And then there's other degrees of it where you maybe just feel like, you know, some level of responsibility or like, man, I maybe could have done something differently, like behaved more or said something or maybe stepped in and helped in some way.
And so it kind of runs the spectrum, but I think to some degree we all feel it at some level, even if it was just like, yeah, I just wish I could have done more to help. But one of the analogies has been helpful for me. You live in Florida, so this is kind of appropriate. If you imagine, you you can build a home or a building that's hurricane proof and not everyone does. You can though, it's more expensive. It takes more work, more resources, but you can. But you know, when a hurricane comes and destroys a home or building that's not hurricane proof,
We, know, in some sense we could say it's the hurricane's fault. But in other sense we could say, well, the people who built the home could have made it hurricane proof, but they chose not to because of whatever reason. And the analogy is that the marriage is the building or the home and the hurricane is the children. Because the truth is that children do add stress to family life and marriage. You know, is it worth fighting through that? Of course. Is it, you know, is there so much joy to be found there? I found it there. I love being a dad. It's amazing.
So I think ⁓ that's been helpful for me to realize like, okay, there were things that your parents could have done to make them more resilient to any sort of behavior that you would have brought about and to the point where we can never say, the kid made it happen. Because that just kind of, like you came to realize that takes all sort of responsibility maybe off of them and puts it on the child, which no one would think that's like an appropriate thing to do, even if you had a horribly behaving child. So that's one thought. The other thought I hear, and I love your thoughts on this, another...
Analogy is that a lot of people say that my parents did the best they could and I think that's true in a lot of senses like they did the best they could with maybe what they were given or what their capacity was but the analogy I've been playing with I haven't really flushed this all out is like imagine that someone who maybe isn't the most physically strong was asked to pick up a weight maybe it's like a hundred pounds of weight not a light weight and they weren't able to do it or maybe they could do it for like a second and then dropped it down in that instance they did the best that they could they lifted the weight
to the capacity that they could. However, if they were to train and become stronger, they would be able to do more, their capacity would increase. And so in some cases, I think parents are saying, well, I did the best I could. And on a scale of one to 10, maybe it's true, they did the best they could, they got to the three or the five or the six. But if they had better formation and more maybe grace in their life and mentorship and whatever else we'd say, more growth, healing, then ideally they'd be at a nine or a 10 in terms of capacity and then the best that they could would have been so much better than what they offered.
Does that make any sense?
Jim (31:30)
Yeah, does. Yeah, I mean the way I look at it too is just thinking about it in terms of we all need to face reality and understand reality, be honest about reality and take responsibility for what's in our control. And ⁓ I just think that that's a struggle for all of us to some degree to say to be conscious of what's really going on, to really want to see.
the truth of what's really going on and deal with it versus wanting to not see certain things or hide certain things or do whatever we can to avoid the reality of certain things because it's uncomfortable to us because it's too painful for us to deal with. And then we make up like kind of like these false stories to make ourselves feel better. I think that's what my mom's family was doing. I don't think they had any bad intent.
I think what they thought they were doing was, yeah, let's just try to make the best of this, you know? So, okay, everybody's going to move on and yeah, it's going to be all right and now she's going to be happy and you know, and then they're trying to get me to go along with this narrative, but it doesn't fit to the experience of reality that I'm having. So, yeah, I just think that it's a lot about getting honest about what's really going on. And so I think
That's the other thing about, you know, growing up after divorce, if everybody doesn't face the reality and deal with it as it really is and try to deal with that in a good and healthy way, then it's sort of just, it's sort of an ongoing thing where bad choices continue to get made going forward, you know, in little ways to whatever degree, but certain ways where it's never a full acceptance of what has really happened and
what the state of things really are now and how to really move forward. So then I think what happens and what I saw a lot in my life was a lot of, you know, receiving a lot of gaslighting, right? Like, okay, that version of reality that you're seeing, that's not real, right? It's what we're seeing. It's what we're telling you and ⁓ just sort of being dismissed. And that's very difficult when...
You naturally want to love your parents even after divorce and build relationships with them and you want to make things better. But if there's never any agreement around the reality of the thing, even if it's a, I'm sorry about that. And, but now let's move on and now let's pretend it never happened basically, or what I mean, it's just, ⁓ there's an ongoing aspect to it.
that if it doesn't get settled in a good and healthy way, it's almost very difficult to try to move on and to really grow in relationship with one another. And so that's a struggle I continue to have. I wanna always improve my relationships with my parents. And I think I have a decent relationships, but I hope for more. I do pray for more and I try to do more, but at the same time, it's like trying to see what is actually possible with respect to how far
You know, they're willing to go, I guess in the relationship, which I don't know if I fully understand it off myself, but trying to make sense of it and figure it out. just know it is difficult.
Joey (34:54)
It's like a never ending chapter in a lot of ways. And what I hear you saying is that if you have those honest conversations and kind of are fully aligned with immersed in facing reality, then you could actually close that chapter and move on. And it's interesting, we see this with other traumas in life, whether it was like abuse or assault or even sexual assault, things that are horrific. There can be, that can haunt you for years and it's very traumatic, but there can be a closure because that thing happened in the past.
It didn't continue. It was ended. It's over. You know, maybe our brains don't fully understand that until we go through something like trauma therapy. But once we do, we can close that chapter, set it aside. When it comes to like broken families and divorce in particular, like you said, it's, can be this never ending thing. So I'm curious kind of what variables, what factors do you kind of weigh when it comes to how to approach your parents, what to say to them? Cause I'll be honest with you too. This is an area where I can grow as well. My parents,
My relationship with my parents is better than it has been in the past, but there's certainly room for growth as well. And I think one of the things that everyone listening probably struggles with is like, will it do any good if I talk to them about how difficult this was for me, how damaging it was for me? Or maybe I tried talking to them about it and I got shut down because maybe it's too painful for them, whatever. I'm curious if you have any guidance for everyone listening on maybe how to approach those conversations, how to judge if they're worth having and you know what.
Maybe a successful resolution might look like in this case. Chris, any thoughts?
Jim (36:21)
I mean, I think the hope would be that you can share your heart and that it can be heard and received and that they can open their hearts and share their hearts and that you can receive that. And you can try to both honestly try to grapple with reality as it really is and really talk about it and see, try to resolve whatever.
Conflicts are there and really work on that together That is an ideal that I was I guess I was hoping for in talking to my parents about these things growing up Yeah, I mean I think mostly I was being gaslit and again I don't want to say any bad intent on their part I think they believe the false narrative that they believe and they think that they're right and that I'm making too big a deal of it or whatever when I'm just I'm just sharing my experience with you, you know, but
My older sister is one who, you know, she made it seem like to this day, that didn't really affect me. I know you had a lot of difficulty with it, Jim, but not me. So she can't relate to any of that. But again, I think it's mostly she's where I was when I was 24, and it's all stuffed in, buried in, not willing to want to look at it. My younger brother, eight years younger than me,
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. think he's dealt with it to some degree. I've talked to him a little bit about it. But yeah, I don't know. It's a relationship I should maybe reopen that discussion with him a little bit more. I think he is willing to be pretty honest about things. So yeah, it'd be interesting to see where he's at with things these days. But yeah, I think where I've ended up landing with my parents off of various attempts and conversations and different things, I guess where I've landed is I want to have
as much of a relationship as I can possibly have with them. But I also have to notice where that line is to what they're kind of capable of, what kind of relationship they're capable of having, you know? And so there's a lot of factors in that. I believe that everybody loves each other and all of that, but that's not really enough for everyone to just say, I love you and I love you. It's more...
Can you really open your heart and talk to somebody on that level? And I just think it's something that was handed on generationally on both sides in my family that opening the heart and really like, you know, getting to the truth of things and trying to take responsibility and really try to talk at that level and look at the truth together on a deep level, not something that was handed on. And so,
I just think that for me, a lot of things have been coming and this is again, I had big conversion when I'm 24 and so it's been quite a process. Now I'm 47 walking with the Lord in this and without him, I can't even imagine, you know, where I would be. But with him, it's like at this point, you know, it's been a process of realizing, all right, I got to break these cycles, you know, Lord, you've got to redeem this family line and
Can you use me to do that? And then coming together with my wife and having these conversations at this level and seeing what does that look like? A family redeem, you know? If we could start over in the Lord and do it the right way by God's grace. And so that's what we've been striving to do before we even got married. Really looking at it in that way and trying to go about it that way is certainly imperfect, but that's been the vision. And by God's grace, I am very, very happy that
very grateful that one of those, yeah, one of those grave sins, you know, that, that I was carrying was masturbation, you know? And so I say that instead of pornography, just because it was more the sin of masturbation, even than like going to like some, you know, pornographic stuff, really, it's just, you know, using the imagination or whatever, but just, you know, an improper sense of, of what my sexuality is and what it's for. And
turning it in on myself and teaching myself, in my mind, be using women. And that was very harmful. And so that, to be the grace of confession, receiving the Eucharist in a state of grace, again, that was an area that I'm like, I was always brought up with my friends like, this is normal. Like if you're not doing this, there's something wrong with you. Even my dad, who pulled me over one day, ⁓ probably when I was around,
maybe 14, 15 years old on the way to a hockey game, and it was like, he's gonna give me the sex talk now. He pulls me over and he says, make sure you wear a condom if you're gonna have sex. And that was pretty much the extent of it. And again, he probably got nothing as a kid. So he thought he was probably giving me something there. But again, nobody's stepping in and telling me anything about the way this works and what's right and what's wrong. And so I was just kinda thrown into the world, like this is how it works.
And it's terrible, it's very harmful. And so by God's grace, I never thought, it seemed like this is an area that I would never be free from because it just seemed like this is such a part of life. And that's the way it's kind of sold by the world. This is healthy. And to not do this is unhealthy. And so to think...
Once I learned what the church's teachings were, and when I opened up the catechism on sexuality, that's the first place I went once I got a catechism in my hands. In my early 20s, I went right to the section on human sexuality. And when I read that section, it leapt off the page into my heart, like I've always known this is true. I just never had the words to say it. And I knew it was true. And I had gone down the wrong road. And it's like, this is what's true. Why? Here it is. You know? Yes, I want to live this. So confession.
the Eucharist and state of grace just relying on that, what I thought I could never be free of within, you know, it was a battle. remember tears in the confessional with the priest saying, look, I don't want to do this anymore. And when I leave here, I know that I'm going to, and I don't want to. And he would tell me, just, just come on back, come on back. And that's what I did. And I relied upon God's grace as I knew that this was real and over time, greater and greater strengthening, greater and greater freedom to the degree that about a year later,
I'm going to Franciscan University then to study theology and I'm like, I'm not bringing this with me. I'm not bringing this with me. And the freedom that God gave, it was almost like he needed that extra conviction to participate with his grace. And then it's been freedom and it's been freedom to a degree that has grown from then and to a point where it is such an area of strength. I would not even consider committing that sin ever. if ever a temptation were to come,
It is, it would be so, it's so easy, like a, like the temptation as a snowball on the top of the hill to see it right away, stick your finger on that little ball and just squash it, not letting that thing roll down the hill and get bigger and bigger until it's an unstoppable thing that is going to roll over you. Right? It's so easy to see and defeat. And that's by God's grace. And so that's why I know it's all real.
for sure, but also, yeah, to know that I didn't bring that sin then, I had, you know, six, seven years before I met my wife where I was able to be formed in so many ways by God ⁓ and strengthened to really be prepared to enter into marriage. So that when I was entering into marriage, again, with all the imperfections still though, in a place of strength and in a place of knowing the purpose and knowing the vision. And thanks be to God for saying,
John Paul II, thanks be to God for Jason Everett and Christopher West and these people that I found early on as I was figuring this out that were able to help me understand even more and bring me along even more in these ways. And man, the world is so upside down on it. And if we...
If we can get this right and if we can get the vision of family life right, the vision of marriage right, the fruits, I just think like it's a renewal of the face of the earth that we pray for when we ask the Holy Spirit to come and renew the face of the earth. Like this is it. But we've got to break those cycles. We've got to allow the Lord to come in and renew these things and really give our effort to participate with that grace, to do it His way. And just one last thing to say on that is
It was actually helpful, I think, in some ways for me to see the example of what not to do. I didn't have, I think maybe I had some degree of trepidation or whatever in the early years after the divorce and relationships and things, wondering what I think is common. I know it's part of your story as well of, am I gonna be able to do this? Am I gonna be able to have healthy relationships and have a successful marriage and all of that?
But I think after the conversion and then moving forward with the Lord, it became for me like a conviction like there's no way I'm doing that, right? I've seen the wrong way. I know the wrong way and there's no way I'm doing that. mean, when I entered into marriage, I entered with the conviction that no matter what happens, I'm not going anywhere. I'm in. So I think in some ways, the Lord always wants to pour some
pull some good out of the bad, right? And so even those of us that come from ⁓ difficult backgrounds, broken backgrounds like this, I think some of the good we can pull out is seeing and knowing the example of what not to do and then going the other way.
Joey (46:10)
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I, you know, as we've talked, I definitely struggled out with a bunch of unwanted sexual behavior, sexual sin, and masturbation was one of them porn, you know, other acting out. And it didn't make me happy. And, you know, I heard Jason Everett speak as we've discussed separately. so we'll link to an article to anyone who's kind of scratching their head thinking like, wait a minute, everyone always told me that masturbation was good and fine and healthy. We'll link to an article that maybe we'll offer another perspective.
if this is something you're hearing for the first time. yeah, if you're open-minded, definitely check that out. And what you were saying though about like your parents, I think I see it the same as you that the ultimate resolution to our broken families is not to fix our parents or to fix our family of origin. We don't have that power. We can't do that. Yes, we want to have as much resolution with our parents. We want to heal that relationship, make it even stronger if we can. But sometimes maybe through no fault of our own, there can't be a perfect resolution with our parents.
because they're just not open to it or there's brokenness or maybe they died like things like that. We hear from young people like that all the time. So like you said so well, I think the resolution is that we go on and we break the cycle. We build the beautiful marriages and families that we didn't get to see growing up that we really longed for that would have really benefited us that the lack of really was detrimental and wounded us. I think that's the direct resolution. And for anyone thinking, what about people who maybe aren't called to get married? I think then you can indirectly
help by building up the marriages and the families around you. Like if you're a priest, know, building up the marriages and the families within your community or parish. If you're someone who doesn't end up getting married for one reason or another, you know, being that support to struggling couples or to, you know, just your friends, like building them up, helping them build this culture of just strong marriages, especially when they struggle. And, you know, like you said, there's definitely been times in my marriage, even where there's been difficult seasons, there's been struggles, but just like you, never once has the thought come into my mind like, time to get divorced.
And for some young people or for some children of divorce it does and that's okay if that comes to mind. But you we have to fight through that and we have to, you like you said, just have the conviction to just make this work and you know, assuming there's nothing violent or dangerous to hurt you or your kids. But yeah, I couldn't agree more with everything you said. So that seems to be to me the resolution that you spoke on so well.
Jim (49:09)
Yeah, it is ⁓ a wound still though, in a way that I'm aware of that is a tough one, right? I mean, I, I just long for more, more resolution, not even about the divorce or anything, just a union of hearts, you know? It just seems like still there's something fundamental that we're not quite on the same page on that is affecting a lot.
You know, and again, I've tried to dig in there some, but yeah, I think certainly we love one another by praying for each other. I think being open, think it's, you know, one thing that was really helpful in my healing process was coming across pretty early on after conversion was Dr. Conrad Bars and a book that he had written called Born Only Once.
I believe it's called and it's all about how you can't make it happen, but we all need this sort of human affirmation where somebody in real life, a person that you can grab ahold of is affirming the goodness of your being, right? And this, so, just, you know that they are affirming you because you are good and it might just be exuded in their presence, but you get this sense of it.
And you can't make that happen. You can't make another person come into your life and have that happen. But we can pray, we can be open, we can put ourselves in situations where we're gonna be around good people. But yeah, I mean, this life is, it's something. We are in a broken world. it's fallen yet redeemed by our Lord, but there's still that fallen aspect. so, yeah, with all these relationships, I think, to be aware of ⁓
the limitations and the hope for as much as is possible, but at the same time, yeah, just being open, I guess that, and I do still struggle quite a bit. I think one area that I'm reflecting on that, yeah, what's still maybe in there that I need to take another look at, and that is, you know, I have trouble trusting people. I just do. And there's a lot of reasons why I think a lot of it though is from being gaslit a lot. And then you see that in the culture.
I do a lot of pro-life work and you just look around and like the world's so upside down. It's good to murder a baby, to kill a baby, an innocent child. This is good. And if you don't think this, then you're the extremist, know, that type of stuff. And so I just think we're being gaslit a lot all the time. And to be able to see that and to realize that and then, how do you have relationships with people when they're believing that narrative? you know, so there's a lot of challenges.
I think in it all, yeah, all by God's grace for sure, but I do hope that I can figure out how to be better myself in terms of loving others in a disinterested way, in a way that just affirms the goodness of the other's being and to be, yeah, be authentically who I am in the face of it, not trying to change myself or say things just to please somebody, but to really bring the weight of who I am
but in a genuinely good way for the people I'm coming into contact with. Yeah, I need a lot of help in that area, but yeah, it's a continual process for all of us.
Joey (52:35)
No, I'm right there with you and touching on kind of what you had mentioned, we're talking about struggles in our relationship with our parents. I think a lot of people can relate. I know I can where the relationship isn't quite where you want it to be or there hasn't quite been, maybe there's been some discussions, but not like full discussions and are not vulnerability. Like you said, like a tendency to maybe stay on the surface. I noticed that in my family at times and not really get to the heart of things, not go to the root. And that needs to happen in order for there to be, you know, genuine peace and deep relationships that are life-giving and
you enjoy being around them, it's tricky. That is a big problem in our culture. And the way I think about it too, this is just what's been helpful for me with my parents is you said it before super well, we need to really dive into their story and have compassion for them. That's the thing that will lead to forgiveness. If we just look at them as an adversary, as an enemy.
we're never going to want to forgive them and it's going to be really difficult to forgive them. And so I love what you said that earlier in the interview that, you know, the compassion for your parents is so huge and that's been certainly the case for me. The one thing I've learned from different psychologists is that, you know, we go through all these experiences in life, we are wounded in different ways and those things get lodged into our subconscious. And so often we never really pay attention to that. We never kind of examine what's in there. And when it comes to our relationship with our parents, there might be like wounds that we sustain from them as we've been discussing.
that impact the way that we think, act toward them. And if we never really like uncover that, we might just think, feel, and act toward them in like really bizarre ways. And so I think that one of the first steps is obviously just naming like, hey, things are not really where they need to be, where I want them to be. Even if it's common or it's been that way for a long time, it doesn't mean it's healthy and like quote unquote normal. And so I think like naming that is really good and then trying to dig down, whether it's with the help of a mentor or a therapist or perhaps even on your own through writing if you're, you know.
capable of that to figure out like, what's at the root of all this? Like, why am I so angry at dad or why do I struggle to trust mom or whatever, the particulars might be in your case and then figure out maybe what the next step might be. Does it involve having a conversation with mom or dad? One of the recent guests we had on had a great idea when it came to like kind of overcoming those like estranged relationships, she said that you can kind of send out like little beacons or signals to kind of test the waters to see, whether it's an email or
you know, a kind of a lighter conversation that's a little bit more on the surface, but slightly underneath to see how they might respond. And if you get good signals back, like, okay, I think they're actually open to this. go a little bit deeper and then maybe you can get to the root of it. Maybe not all in one conversation, maybe not right away. Maybe it's going to take months or even years, but ideally you can get to that point. And that's been something I've been thinking a lot about lately, even for myself. It's like, okay, I need to do this, this and this. Like here's kind of some of the struggles I'm having with this parent or that parent. And I really want to work through this. I don't want this to be a thing that
persist for years and years and then they die and I carry it for the rest of my life. And I know it's kind of ⁓ a staunch point to make, but I think it's important because I think so often we can go through life and not even attempt to resolve things. But again, you know, for everyone listening, you might get to a point where they're not open and then it's like on us to kind of find some resolution to maybe kind of just lift it up into God's hands and be like, Hey, I did my part. I've tried. I'll keep trying maybe in different ways, but they've closed the door.
and I can't, there's nothing I can do right now unfortunately with this. So maybe another door will open in the future, but for now, this is, I have to make peace with it. have to just put it down. And so those are a few things that have been helpful for me and stuff that's been top of mind. Before we kind of get to the end of our show, anything you'd add to that, and then I am curious if you can briefly talk about what is that vision for marriage and family that so many of us never even get a glimpse of growing up?
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Jim (57:15)
Yeah, the only thing I guess I would add to what you're saying and yeah, it's an area that I need. I'd love to learn a lot more about, but for me, where I am today on it is with my parents, I consider it a victory of sorts just to maintain the relationships and largely, yeah, their surface relationships. And I know kind of the topics we can talk about when I talk to them. And so that's kind of where we go and we've got a certain way of doing that. But
But yeah, I like the idea of trying to ⁓ overcome the fear of maybe not giving up, of continuing to try to press in, see where there's an opening and try to press in some. And I like that idea of not just saying, well, I guess this is just how it's gonna be, surface relationship for the rest of our lives. So yeah, that's good. then yeah, the vision, I guess, I don't know, one thing I would say is that it just makes sense that
we're meant to, it's meant to be a vision. The family is meant to build up children that are, and again, I know that there are some people listening that might not even be Christian, but for me, that's central because I know it's real. Jesus and his Catholic Church, I've come to know it through my experience and it all checks out in the past.
you know, 23 years or so of striving to live it faithfully. So the sense of, you know, building up the children, I guess, even if we, if we don't talk about putting Christ at the center, it's, it's going upward, right? So we want to have it as such so that we raise children that are, they're going to be better than us, right? They're going to, they're going to grow stronger than us. We're going to give them the best we've got. Hopefully they can take from the best and leave the bad and they'll
They'll be a notch up and then as a parent, I don't feel bad about that. I don't think, ⁓ my son or my daughter is trying to outdo me or something. I better pull them back down. No, it's like, this is great. This is how it's supposed to be. Then if they're called a marriage, then they build up children that are gonna be even holier, more virtuous than they are, so on and so forth. It makes sense that the trajectory would be upward versus when you look back on your...
family line, oftentimes you look back and you can see, I'm not sure this trajectory is not looking like it's going in the upward fashion, you know, like you can kind of trace it and it seems like, you know, it's a lot of floundering maybe or whatever it is, but it doesn't seem to be what it's meant to be. Even if you just look at it from a natural virtue standpoint. But to me, what Jesus has revealed to us is very, very helpful in understanding who we're called to be and what the family's called to be.
in the sense of Him revealing the Father to us and revealing the Holy Spirit, pouring out the Holy Spirit on us, on Pentecost. so understanding the Holy Trinity and how it's this eternal exchange of persons in this one God that each is fully open to give and to receive and that it's fruitful, right? And all creation overflows from this. We are created out of God's love for us. Creation is good.
and created out of love. We are good and created out of love. And that that's, we're all meant to be created out of the love of a man and a woman who are fruitful and multiply naturally as it works, right? And so you can see where all of the world gets these things wrong and perverts it all. But it's like, if we just stuck to the vision and if it was the marital act, was the marital act, right? Only within marriage and.
in a loving embrace, the man and the woman, the husband and wife, their love overflows and a third person is created and then this child comes and then the vision is the love of the husband and wife overflows then to the love of the child and the child is open to receive the love as a child naturally is and the child gives themselves back in love. The problem early on is never the child. It's always the parents who obstruct that in some way, but we don't need to.
by God's grace, right? To be free to love one another, to love the child, to invite the child into this relationship of love. And then from there, being fruitful as a family and being able to, you know, be virtuous in society and do good for others and all of that. And then again, that child goes on perhaps to marriage or, you know, another vocation. And that's again, living.
this idea of loving, of giving oneself and receiving and being fruitful. It makes a whole lot of sense. It's very simple, but it's very deep and profound at the same time. And it really explains so much about who we are and how we're called to live. So to me, again, it all, it all checks out. makes a lot of sense. And then, diving into the life.
of the ⁓ striving to live the teachings, the authoritative teachings of the Catholic Church, which are a gift. The moral teachings are such a gift to protect us from the confusion of the world if we really understand them for what they are. It's part of that aspect of God pouring out His love for us to teach us, like, go this way, don't go this way. Like, it's not about, hey, here are some rules to ruin your time out there so you're not happy. No, it's actually the opposite. It's to free you from all this nonsense.
So you can be free to actually have a wonderful life as you're called to. And then, yeah, we need help doing that. So it's diving into the sacramental life where we can actually share the very life of God. So it's not just me trying to do it on my own effort every day. It's being filled with God's life and participating with that in my efforts to try to be the man he's calling me to be. So to me, it's a beautiful vision and it's a vision that comes down to us through the centuries.
And ⁓ again, if you look into it, I just think it all checks out. And then when you step into it and strive to actually live it faithfully on its own terms, it really checks out because all of a sudden, like you start to experience the goodness and the fruitfulness and it's all real. So ⁓ we've got great opportunities before us. We've got everything handed to us, given to us, ⁓ maybe not necessarily handed on by our biological family or the family we grew up with.
to varying degrees, but we do have it handed on ⁓ by God who created us out of His love and His church that He died to give us out of His love. And so even if it doesn't seem like maybe a lot was provided for us in our family, if you look at the bigger family that we're called into, everything has been provided to us.
Joey (1:03:57)
Beautiful. I could talk with you forever, but, but I wanted to give people a little bit of a glimpse of kind of your life now, a little bit of a contrast compared to, you know, all the pain you were going through. And so you, you're married, you have kids, you've, talked a little about that, but yeah, tell me a little bit about your life now, just again, to give people a contrast to where maybe it was, and perhaps even some hope that, Oh, Jim did it. Maybe I can too.
Jim (1:04:20)
Sure, yeah, just I guess, you my life now, I don't know what to share other than I very much love being a husband and a father. And yes, it's very difficult. It's like, there's a lot of adversity and challenge and it's hard and it's wonderful. And it shapes you into who you're made to be more than anything else I could ever imagine. And that's because it's a vocation that I'm called to, which again, I prayerfully
discerned and you know, God has led me into this and he's been there with me in this and you know, it's more beautiful than I could ever imagine. And in many ways, yes, more difficult than I could ever imagine. But I remember a time when I was a young person after, you know, my parents divorced when I was quite lost, looking in the mirror and just having a hard time believing not, couldn't see a vision of me being a man. I couldn't see a vision.
of me being a husband and a father with six kids. We've got 15 down to one and a half who were fostering and hoping to adopt soon. yeah, we have lost a few children to miscarriage as well. I would never be able to see the vision of who I am today. And it bothered me. I had no sense of it. And I had hoped that God would show me. And those were tough years without having that sense, but just not giving up.
Keep going, keep going, keep doing that, ⁓ keep doing the best you can with what's right in front of you and never give up. And again, by God's grace to be here and now to see the vision fulfilled that I could never see then, that yeah, I can be a man, yeah, I can be a husband, I can be a father, and here I am in like the full flowering of it. And yeah, I'm in the heat of it right now with the children all still here. I don't know what happens next. Just like.
I don't, you know, I always was excited after my conversion. I would think about it one year in, you know, after coming back to the church and the adventure of the whole thing, it was, you know, very, very difficult, you know, trying to not commit these sins that were so entrenched in my life and all of this. And then, you know, the combat of all of that and thinking, what does this look like in 10 years if you don't give up? What does this look like in 20 years, in 30 years? And I can just say that it is wonderful.
The further you go with our Lord in this, He's got so much for you. And to me, I'm on like the slow track in a certain sense because I feel that, Lord, I think it takes me a long time sometimes to learn what you're trying to show me and to, you know, to step in what you're inviting me into or whatever, at least, you know, that's how I perceive it sometimes. But to think like, I can't wait.
to see by God's grace if he gives me more time in my earthly life, what does it look like when you're 30, 40 years in? I don't know, but I can only imagine it gets richer and more beautiful and more wonderful in the midst of the terrible difficulties that we have to face each and every day. Our Lord tells us for a reason, pick up your cross each day, come follow me, because it is hard. There's a lot of responsibility in being a husband and a father.
A lot of children in the home and all of that a lot of responsibility and we cannot shirk that responsibility We've got to face it. We've got to own it. We've got to say lord I don't know how I'm gonna do this, but you got to help me let's go and and keep keep moving forward in it and it really is difficult but so amazingly beautiful and so I would just ask though that anybody who might find this say a little prayer for me if you wouldn't mind I you know
can use all the help and the body of Christ, ⁓ really appreciate the prayers. And yeah, if you're watching this, I'm going to pray for you when I get off of this, anybody that is watching this. And if I can ever be of any help or service to anybody at any time, just reach out. ⁓ yeah, it's a beautiful life even amidst the many trials, but we've got to help each other in it too. And I think that's kind of a lost art in our world today, people who really seem to care about each other and help each other and all of that.
Joey (1:08:33)
But this podcast is a good start and I definitely appreciate you sharing all that you shared and yeah, ditto. I can definitely relate with it being hard and beautiful. There's something about that. Like, yeah, your life gets harder, but it gets better. So I'm right there with you. Tell us a little bit about how people can find you online and what you offer. know you have your hands in different things. So tell us a little bit about everything you're working on.
Jim (1:08:56)
Sure, yeah, right now I do a radio show on Catholic Radio, the station of the cross. iCatholic Radio is the mobile app. So that's every Monday through Friday, four to five p.m. So I various things. Joey came on, shared his testimony for an hour with us recently, so you can find that. ⁓ Also, he's coming back tomorrow. Actually, he's gonna be live at four p.m. Eastern, and we're gonna talk, and he's gonna answer some questions, so that's gonna be great.
⁓ But yeah, you can also find me on YouTube Jim Havens various videos again the the show that I do but also videos related to the men's march Which is something that I co-founded the national men's march to abolish abortion rally for personhood So you can check that out also at the men's march calm and then Catholic family men calm something I did some years ago now Probably at least ten years ago I would say but that was really helpful formative for me to do a study of the Saints who are the Saints that our husbands and fathers
Can I identify them? Can I learn about their lives? Can I find a little example from their lives that maybe I can apply to mine? And if I'm doing this for me, can I put it out there as a resource for others? So that's out there if you might find benefit from that, catholicfamilymen.com. And then jimhavens.com is just ⁓ a place where you can find me and my emails there or a way to reach out to me ⁓ if I can ever be of service.
Joey (1:10:17)
But also mulling to that, all that in the show notes and Jim, thank you for being here. Thank you for, yeah, sharing so openly, so vulnerably. I know I found it helpful and I'm sure our audience says too. I just want to give you the last word. What final advice or encouragement would you offer to everyone listening? Maybe especially to the younger you who's listening right now, maybe the young man who, yeah, it hasn't quite developed into like that full version of like the masculine man that they're meant to be. What final advice or encouragement would you give them?
Jim (1:10:44)
Yeah, I think it's almost the same thing that I would give to myself now in a certain way and to everybody and that is, yeah, to face things, try to really see things as they really are and be honest about that and to see it head on and then to not stuff it down or turn away from it or anything like that, but to really invite Jesus into it and ask the help of the best intercessor that we have, Our Lady, who is so
so powerful and so helpful in loving us and helping us to draw closer to Jesus and helping our hearts to open to Him. So I would just say to ⁓ open up the heart and to allow Him in, to open up the mess and allow Him in and to not be turning away in the pain and going further from Him or turning away from Him, but just turn to Him, keep turning to Him. Never give up on that process of continuing to turn to Him.
in the difficulty, the pain, whatever it is, in the joy, share life with them. Open the heart and let them in. And that vision of the Holy Trinity with God, right? He's pouring out His heart to you and He's asking you to open up and receive and to give yourself back. And so to persevere in that and just keep going.
Joey (1:12:04)
That wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
