#153: He Grew Up Without a Dad. Here’s What He Learned | Tommy

Pending! Stay tuned.

In many places, we’re facing an epidemic of fatherlessnes. Fatherlessness not only leaves an invisible mark but it also shapes how you view yourself, how you handle your emotions, and how you love in relationships. So are fatherless children doomed?

Not at all. In fact, Tommy shows how to compensate for what you didn’t receive from dad and how healing is within reach. In this episode, we also discuss:

• His dad’s spiral into mental illness, homelessness—and why Tommy hasn’t seen him in over a decade

• The hidden ways father hunger shows up in dating relationships, causing us to seek what we never received from the wrong people

• The lies he carried for years: “I am alone” and “I have to earn love”—and the truth he found to break that grip

If you experienced any sort of fatherlessness, this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:03)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

My guest today is Tommy. Tommy is an unapologetic New Jersey native who grew up without a father, through the presence of father figures this passion he has for mentoring young people in an increasingly fatherless world.

As you probably know, in so many places in our world, we're facing an epidemic of fatherlessness. And fatherlessness not only leaves a wound like an invisible mark, but it also shapes how you view yourself, how you handle your emotions, and how you love in relationships. And so the question is, are fatherless children doomed? Not at all. In fact, Tommy shows how to compensate for what you didn't receive from dad how healing is within reach.

In this episode, we also discuss things like his dad's spiral into mental illness and even homelessness and why Tommy seen him in over a decade. The difficult balance between helping enabling someone who has a mental illness. We talk about the two extremes that we all fall with emotions how Tommy has found the healthier path.

We discuss all the ways that father hunger shows up in dating relationships, causing us to seek we didn't receive from the wrong people. hit on what it's like to feel too messy for your friends and how Tommy stopped believing that. And the lies that he carried for years, thinking I'm all alone and I have to earn love and the truth he found to break that grip. And so if you've experienced any sort of fatherlessness, this episode is for you.

In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. Wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, I would just challenge you to listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip the God parts, still gonna get a lot from this episode. And with that, here's the conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (01:59)

Tommy, great to have you here, man. Welcome to the show.

Tommy (02:01)

Thank you so much for having me, Joey.

Joey Pontarelli (02:02)

know your story is ⁓ quite intense and I'm excited to dive into that and just learn more about everything But I'm just so honored that you would come on the show. as we usually do, I'm curious what you remember or what you were maybe told if you were super young, what was life like before your parents split?

Tommy (02:20)

I'm going off of entirely what I've been told because they split when I was not even a year yet. ⁓ think I was specifically I think it was about six months.

And so, maybe I can get into this a little bit more later, but there's actually kind of a part of my story of just the implications of like there being problems and difficulties before I was even conceived. And the act of faith my mom went through to even be open to the conception of me. And so, in a beautiful way in my life, know is, I very instinctively know my life's a miracle, every life's a miracle. But I think

that's also come with some baggage though of like the feeling of like you have a debt to pay of like making your life worth something or and so forth, you know? ⁓ But yeah, so I don't really know what life was like before. I've been told on good faith that it was good and it is a very holy and happy marriage. But obviously that only lasted so long.

Joey Pontarelli (02:55)

Hmm

Tommy (03:06)

Yeah, I want to make sure I'm not jumping ahead in the right order of questions, I suppose, but my parents' situation is unique in the sense that it wasn't like they were splitting because of fighting or disagreements. was, it kind of goes up the chandelier tree a little bit because my grandfather, unfortunately, was a alcoholic and very abusive. I know physically, I believe, it often comes to the verbal abuse as well. And I think my aunts, because they're daughters, she was more gentle with them.

⁓

in both respects and so I think they obviously have their own level of baggage and trauma they've dealt with but I think the boys unfortunately, my uncles and my dad, had more of brunt to pay so to speak in terms of like kind of the old fashioned 1950s, know, leather belt discipline and so forth. And so with that I think I unpack this a bit more later but it's not like I have this resentment toward my parents or difficulty with that.

It's very understandable and if I look at what happened to my dad's illness as a result of his trauma, it makes sense that they had to split. so they're civilly divorced but they're not annulled. They never saw an annulment. My mom didn't seek an annulment. But essentially my dad's got crippling OCD. It's actually a pretty common thing of obsessive compulsive disorder. And a lot of people do actually have some form of it. much more than simply like feeling like the need to tidy all the time or something like that.

those who are not familiar, OCD essentially is the irrational obsession, a fear, and in order to kind of ease that fear, you have a compulsion, which is like some kind of weird or again compulsive action in order to kind of ease that anxiety. So for my dad, he had issues for a lot of his life, but I guess was able to...

with it or kind of package it up or to know we're trying to find the right phrasing cope with it and obviously get married and and be okay and functional for several years to have four children ⁓ but I think night school and a lot of stress at work and other things kind of broke him and then I guess a lot of old habits and old trauma kind of came back rearing its ugly head and he just developed a lot of very obvious OCD and but to be honest I feel like there's a lot more because it seems like I've never heard of a

Joey Pontarelli (04:46)

Hmm.

Tommy (05:08)

case

of OCD as bad as his. To this think he's still homeless. he's kind of a paradox and a contradiction because on the one hand, he's constantly showering in the skin of germs like a hypochondriac, but on flip side, he's also hoarding because he's trying to recycle. This is a lot of strange habits he's built. And as a result, though, he's often booted as a rent. And so that's rendered him homeless.

Joey Pontarelli (05:10)

Wow.

Tommy (05:30)

Yeah, it's been hard to kind of from a distance know he's struggling and just trying to figure out that relationship, especially as I've become an adult with my own family and my children's relationship to their grandfather. So that's definitely more than what you asked initially. That's kind of some context.

Joey Pontarelli (05:43)

No, no, I love it. Let's go there. So thank you for sharing.

And that's kind what I was alluding to by the intensity of it. I had known some of these details from afar and, ⁓ and that's so hard. And I think you're right. When people hear OCD, they think like, I'm just kind of a perfectionist or something like that. But it's like, you were talking like clinical OCD here where it's like intense. And I've known a couple of people who've had it pretty bad, maybe not to that level you know, they had maybe a huge, obsession with germs. And so they would constantly like wash their hands to the point where it would like,

Tommy (05:50)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (06:10)

get really bad, like raw skin, things like that. So that's another example that I can think of. But curious, with kind of his current state, how much contact do you have with him if you're open to sharing? And then how do you navigate that whole tension between maybe wanting to help versus knowing that if you become like a crutch, then that will do more harm?

Tommy (06:11)

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're asking a question that unfortunately is still very present and still very much asked. And I think because, you know, the past five gotten married, I have two children now, and so it's transitioning from being a child to being a college student to being a young adult to being now kind of an independent husband and father. So yeah, so I think the...

We unfortunately had a very good system growing up and seeing him. It was on a regular basis. I I was much younger. It was like maybe twice a year, Easter and Christmas. Maybe three times would be more rare. It's typically twice a year. And then it kind of dwindled down to once a year. Easter was kind of the see him. And forgetting the reason. I know it was on his end. He just decided like, you know,

He was like, growing up you always say, his illness. We don't know why. He just said that he can't come. And so that was the last time I saw him was the summer I went to college. So it's been over a I've seen him.

Joey Pontarelli (07:24)

Wow.

Tommy (07:25)

I

have had very limited contacts. Like I talked to him over the phone at this point, it'd be almost four years ago. On the phone, I received a letter from him and I've sent him a couple of letters. But of his illness is that like he has no phone, he has no car, because he's also kind of, I don't think he's schizophrenic, he might be, but he's definitely paranoid. And so I did think about him a lot during COVID of

On

the one hand, the fear of germs, but on the flip side, COVID obviously was boxed with lots of conspiracy theories and the government and world takeover and all kinds of crazy stuff. I almost imagine him suffering from both of those, of like the fear of the government and the fear of so I wonder how he dealt with that. But the point being is that it's very difficult to get in touch with him. And so how approach it is

Joey Pontarelli (07:57)

Yeah.

Tommy (08:10)

I would love a relationship with him and for him to know my children, his grandchildren. I know from a distance it gives him lot of pride and joy from what we've done with our lives and now his grandchildren. my two children and actually my brothers, you they're expecting someone more on the way. But I there has to be boundaries and I think the big part of his illness is sort of trying to like violating boundaries. so have to very firm lines in the sand. And insofar as he can't do it or is not willing to

that then unfortunately have to take a step back.

But I think in an ideal world, and hopefully this can be a reality sooner than later, can be sort of negotiations if you will. I hate to use such a business term, but that's kind of how it's been in order to cultivate a relationship that's healthy but non-invasive because he would easily sort of overstep boundaries, unfortunately. And therefore, have my primary duties to my to make sure that, you know, grandpa is not just randomly showing up and expecting to kind of just crash in our house for months or

Joey Pontarelli (08:46)

Yeah.

Tommy (09:04)

who knows? mean there's been incidents of him having kind of a reality check of what's possible and what's not.

Joey Pontarelli (09:06)

Yeah.

No, thanks for going into all that and sharing. I think one of the things I notice in you, just even in the way you talk about your dad is, have a lot of compassion for him, which I know some people aren't there yet. Some people are just like still feeling maybe a lot of anger a parent who neglected them or, you know, walked away whatever the case was. I'm sure there's those emotions there for you too. But that's like, I think a really beautiful lesson for all of us is saying that.

Tommy (09:33)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (09:38)

I think there is a way almost always, if not always, to develop some sort of compassion. Like I heard a quote recently that said, it's like, it's hard hate close up. Like if you really get to know people and like learn their stories and realize like, wow, they had a really difficult life and they had trauma of their own had this mental illness. And like, that was similar with my dad, like a lot of up. He, you know, has bipolar disease

Tommy (09:42)

Mm.

Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (10:01)

been really hard on and I cannot imagine, like, I don't know what I would do personally if I had that disease. And so I think there's something really, I think, and beautiful about that and obviously that can lead to forgiveness and a lot of things. But at the same time, I hear you saying, you know, that doesn't mean that anything goes. Like you have to have proper boundaries, not just for you and your family, but also for his good, because it wouldn't be good for him to be able to, you know, maybe get away with things or do things that would ultimately, you know, harm him.

Tommy (10:03)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, was definitely,

I think, again, I can speak more about this later, but my mom handled it by and large incredibly honorably and I admire her so much for her strength and her witness, even just to her faithfulness, fidelity, and having such a hard life herself as a single mother. It's it's unbelievable. there was like, yeah, it's difficult where it felt like opening a dad box was like a huge, you know, Pandora's box of emotions. And so it felt like the routine was sort of like, you know, on the once or twice a year visit where we

Joey Pontarelli (10:51)

Yeah.

Tommy (10:55)

saw dad on the way back home from Pennsylvania, back to New Jersey, we'd have our dad conversation that was like, you know, the box is opened and it was like exhausting, you know, and then close the box. And so there wasn't really open conversation about reality. And I think there's, you know, different personality temperaments in my family, why that would perhaps be the case, or guess preferences of, you know, not needlessly constantly stirring up emotions, which is completely makes sense. but I think I...

Joey Pontarelli (11:04)

Gosh. Hmm.

Tommy (11:20)

I've always been told my dad's a very good man, but he's a sick man. And so that's kind of the narrative I've always recognized and believed in. And I still believe that, and I know that. there's also a healthy balance to not paint him as a, I've also had to kind of almost go backward in my process of.

recognizing what's happened in my own childhood to recognize, know, is there no fault in my dad? Is it all trauma or is there some level of capability? And that's a hard line and I don't even know how to draw that line because I don't know, know, what is his own free will versus his illness? And that's kind of one those situations with my story, but every story is different, so.

Joey Pontarelli (11:43)

Yeah.

Yeah, no, that's a big question. And I think it's harder and harder to like draw that line the more intangible the like disability is. Cause I think like with things, I don't know if someone like lost their legs, it's like, well, obviously they can't walk. And there's some like, like literal physical limitation that you're going to get hit in the face with, or they have cancer so they never have much energy. So they can't really like play with their kids. Like, so it's kind of a tangible, at least visible,

Tommy (12:01)

Yeah.

Yeah. Right.

Joey Pontarelli (12:19)

way of explaining their behavior, but with mental illness

especially, I've seen it's like, my goodness, everything on the outside can appear fine. It can appear like you're like anyone else, but you are just as sick as that person with cancer.

Tommy (12:25)

It's so great. Yeah.

Yeah, no, that's a great way of putting it. It's felt great. I think actually in my process of accepting it in a deeper level, think in a weird way, I grew up a healthy but at times unhealthy level of...

Ownership like yeah, I think sometimes we overstep the line of like we're the family that has a really hard story But we own our cross we embrace our cross and we're mature and we're happy and we're in Sometimes I think I I want to be tread lightly here to not sound like I'm disparaging any of my family, but

But yeah, I think that sometimes I with that ownership, there came like a lack of permission to kind of struggle sometimes or to feel like a little anger or frustration or deal with those messy emotions. And it's like, nope, this is our cross and we accept it and it can sometimes turn into a kind of stoicism. the point I guess I'm trying to make is that with mental illness, it is very gray.

and it's hard to draw lines and I think sometimes the narrative, especially for me because I was the was very black and white. Like he's good, but he's sick. And it's like, okay. And I think that's a great narrative to tell a two-year-old, a four-year-old, even a six, seven, whatever. But I think that narrative kind of stayed. And as I'm in college or then even as a young adult, it's like, well, is that, it's that black and white.

Joey Pontarelli (13:23)

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tommy (13:42)

I think there's a beauty of simplicity to that and to have a simple faith of just, you know, believe not to be the case. But then there's also been instances that have occurred where I see some gray area to process that. And think for that has to be a level don't want to say wiggle room, but just an acceptance that.

ultimately is merciful and compassionate but also allows for the messiness of emotions and let that iron itself out as opposed to sort of like well, it's across if that's is and then we start to kind of bury things or the They'll still be there to process maybe the decade later, but there there's unprocessed emotions will still be there

Joey Pontarelli (14:14)

Wow. No, you're bringing up so many great points. I'm taking tons of notes here. So a few things. I want to talk about how your mom handled things in a second to just kind of like finish painting the picture of life was like for you. And then we'll kind of go fast forward in the story. But before getting to that, one point I heard from a psychologist was, just this tendency that we have between maybe brooding over like emotions and difficulties in life much, right? We get caught in them. We are constantly thinking about them, talking about them. That sounds like that was not the problem.

Tommy (14:25)

Mm.

Hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (14:41)

in your family, in your life. On the other hand, we have people who, yeah, yeah, like on the other hand, we have people bottle things up and never talk about things. It's like, yep, that thing happened years ago and we never even mentioned it. So brooding and bottling, neither great and healthy, but yeah, when it comes to stoicism, I wanna touch on that a little bit. in your childhood or even over the years.

Tommy (14:41)

Mm. Mm-mm. Yeah. Talk stoicism.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Joey Pontarelli (15:03)

Yeah, what's been your relationship with, I don't know, difficult emotions and things? You alluded to this already, but I'm curious if stoicism looked at something like good and virtuous, which maybe there is virtue in it, or did you handle all these difficult emotions, especially since maybe you didn't see that modeled super well?

Tommy (15:06)

No, No.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean joke now, know, it's like I grew up in a...

Irish family which is kind of like a perfect mix of bottling things up or you know, like there's actually Laughed but it was like a conversation I have my uncle I was like in high school at this point I maybe eighth grade I think I was in high school and he's like, yeah and your uncle Kevin and he's gay and and I was like really? He's like you didn't know that I was like no not disparaging that but at all certain big family things. I just never was told, you know, just I

Joey Pontarelli (15:25)

Yeah.

you

Yeah.

It's like kind

of huge and you're like, I'm just learning about this right now.

Tommy (15:49)

Yeah, yeah.

I can laugh about it now, of course. actually article about this a magazine one time, and I think that writing that article itself was a bit of a process for me, which was good.

And I think the theme of the article that I actually hit on was this very question of this relationship between sort toxic stoicism that sort of says, well, it is what it is, deal with it, move on. And then the flip side of a brooding and bottling, like that dichotomy. I think I called it a, what did say? We're just the victim of a mentality.

And on the flip side, stoicism that's gone too far. think, I won't say stoicism, but a serenity is good. Obviously, Lord give me the, you know, the serenity prayer, Lord give me the, how's it go? The strength to change the things that I can, patience to accept the things that I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference. You know, I'm paraphrasing more or less what it

there's also a sense of accepting the things that you can't. think with stoicism, of problem is that it's correct.

there are many things in life you can't change. But the problem though is that it then, it doesn't have like a more of an interpersonal recognition of your own emotions and the validity of those. And so just because your emotions and your rationality are distinct not mean emotions rationally is not needed, you know?

Joey Pontarelli (17:01)

Mm-hmm.

Tommy (17:01)

I think just legitimate, but a necessary process in understanding our emotions and their allowing reason to of comb through But then, goal has to be projected towards something, has to have a trajectory a line, which acceptance.

and allowing that wound, that cross heal you, to transform you, to be part of your story. I think for my it's a little too, what's the word? Yeah, think tended toward like, yep, it's part of our story, we're stronger for it, we're better for that's definitely true. And I was thinking from the youngest sibling you was the back end of that, where perhaps I was kind of lumped in with everyone's story

emotions hadn't yet fully processed perhaps. I think that's the one extreme. On the flip side though, of course you have this brooding, this sort victim mentality. And the biggest problem with victimhood is that requires a villain. And you mentioned before, what if you get cancer leg's chopped off or it's amputated or you get into a car accident. a whole number of things that can happen that are tragic, that are not moral evils, but are natural evils. lose sight in whatever, lose sight in one eye.

Joey Pontarelli (17:46)

Yeah

Tommy (18:02)

to blame, really you just either blame nature or you blame God. There's no one really to blame. And so if you don't have a villain, the victim can't really go anywhere. And so ultimately they say in forgiveness and in acceptance, the person who has the most liberation is the victim, forgiver, not the forgiven. And so I think in that sense,

Joey Pontarelli (18:17)

Hmm.

Tommy (18:20)

You have to have that tension proper of recognizing the validity of your emotions, not allowing those emotions to tie you down forever. And the flip side acceptance or stoicism, it's to move on to recognize these are real things and I can't change them, but not to make that marching order to not think about it and to kind of bury them, because burying things doesn't actually do anyone any good.

Joey Pontarelli (18:39)

Mm.

Yeah, no, so good.

made me think of the psychologist I mentioned before who kind mentioned the brooding and the bottling, Dr. Susan David. She's a Harvard psychologist and she wrote a book called Emotional Agility. And she of outlines emotional agility. It's been really helpful for as kind of like the ideal. says it's not, she kind of shies away from the term emotional intelligence because it sounds fixed. Like you how to better master and navigate your emotions.

But she basically says emotional agility is your ability to face and feel your emotions. Like we're not running from them. We're not hiding from them. We're not stuffing them away. but then choosing your response in a way that aligns with your deepest held beliefs, which we'd essentially call virtue. And so like her definition though, cause I think there's something in that it's like, okay, no, we're not just like brushing them away. We're facing them. feeling them. because I think what the problem with so is that I see.

like when you were talking, it became more is that it doesn't like allow any sort of like grieving as one component to it. It's like, no, you gotta just keep moving, keep moving, keep moving. think that's a problem. And I think that actually these people are more stuck in the long yeah, I think focus on emotional agility and kind of the two components being feeling it then still using your will, your intellect to choose like what's good, what.

Tommy (19:37)

Yeah.

does.

Joey Pontarelli (19:54)

the good next action, next step, even in the miswell-bit.

Joey Pontarelli (19:57)

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Tommy (20:35)

I think also, you know, I'm a Catholic and part of the Christian, the Christian narrative, if you will, is, ethos is probably a better word to use, is to allow suffering, suffering is inevitable. When Christ came, He didn't take away suffering, and that kind of shocked a lot of people at the time of like, I thought the Savior was going to take everything away, and didn't take away suffering, He just transformed suffering into meaning, and gave it meaning, it shows how to suffer, so to speak.

Joey Pontarelli (20:50)

Hmm.

Tommy (20:55)

you know, he also, throughout the Gospels, Christ is healing people, but first through sin, by forgiving their sins, and then like, can you make me not paralyze anymore? I can fix your natural evil, but the moral evil and forgiveness is the more important thing to heal. And I the victim, the...

Suffering becomes a debt to pay off like someone needs to pay this debt. That's not mine and that's legitimate a lot of suffer when it's not our fault like why am did I grow up without a father my whole life and many people why my parents have an ugly divorce when I was in high school or whatever And that's a legitimate question then like who is gonna like pay that debt so to speak and you can get stuck in that and not allowing a suffering kind of form the flip side with a stoic or I should say toxic stoicism It takes that suffering and kind of cast

decide is irrelevant. then, but neither actually embracing the suffering and allowing that suffering to mean something and then to grieve it, but then also to allow it to transform you. think, know, ⁓ Avi Crook spes unica, hail the cross, or only hope, is a sentence in which, you know, Christ suffered the most, but also showed us the meaning of and allows us to look to the cross, not in a kind of a depressing or...

Yeah, glorifying of suffering way, but in a way of recognizing that we are still in a veil of tears, but there is hope, and that hope is in heaven, and suffering can transform us to actually make us even stronger pilgrims as we make our way on our journey. And we won't be on skates, but are

what's the word, yeah, crosses or something like that, scars that actually, if properly embraced in a healthy way can actually strengthen us and not actually hinder us at all.

Joey Pontarelli (22:26)

Wow, so good. And thought of that, you know, Jesus could have just taken away is, kind of wild. Like at least he, you know, has like the power to do that, but he chose not to. So there must be some wisdom, some in it, which is kind of wild to think about or some good that can be brought out of it, I should say. Yeah, no, it's, it's wild. I think the more I think about, you I don't know, just life in general, it's like, we're not really here for very long on earth one.

Tommy (22:37)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (22:51)

in the grand scheme of things and two, we're pretty much guaranteed to suffer. Like I even think of it now, like with life, you know, I have a wife, I have two kids, another baby on the way at this point and thank you. Yeah. And, it's awesome. And I love it. And you know, when things are going well, like we're in like a good season, like kind of on an up spiral, it's like, this is great. It would be nice if it was like this way forever. And then there's kind of the sobering reality. It's like, well, there might be a call one day.

Tommy (22:55)

Yeah.

Congrats, wow.

Yes.

Joey Pontarelli (23:17)

that something really bad happened. There might don't know, who knows, something that I might not even be able to stomach at some point. I don't go there often, but it's kind of this reality that like, no, no, life is hard and suffering is inevitable. what you just mentioned, I think, is the only reason there's any sort of hope. Otherwise, it's like everything's meaningless.

Tommy (23:36)

Yeah,

I mean that's have to give Nietzsche credit, you know where he was consistent at least philosophically where he You know says God is dead But then the conclusion is meaninglessness or to kind of like will to power kind of like tread through the chaos Together and try to blaze your own trail It's at least philosophically consistent, but it is depressing some people

are saying there's no greater narrative to life, there's no greater meaning to life, just kind of postmodernism in a nutshell.

But then don't want to accept the fact that life is But then they're also prescribing there's not really a greater arching meaning to, or arc to history itself, or life itself, or existence itself. and so yeah, this is where I think there's the accusation that religion is kind of just a medication to kind of make sense out of things. Or you can believe that there's also some truth there, that it's not just a band-aid or an Advil pill or something, but it's in fact a recognition that there's something, a greater horizon beyond your immanent

and present suffering and therefore that can actually have a transformative and a relevance to this chapter in your book of life and that this chapter will end and then a new chapter will begin and there'll be a reason and relevance and transformation from that chapter.

Joey Pontarelli (24:41)

Love that. Yeah, you make me think of Victor Frankel to who I've mentioned a lot in this show But I love his stuff and how you know, he just contradicted Freud Freud who said that all the only thing we want is humans as pleasure Because you know life is fleeting and we just want to fill ourselves with the most pleasure we can But Freud, know came out very strongly contradicting him saying no That's not what we want more than I think the thing we want more than I think is meaning as a you know Deep reason to live that's bigger than ourselves. And I mean he said that when our lives are

Tommy (24:44)

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (25:08)

avoidive meaning that's where we're most tempted to this like mindless pleasure. think it's so true. And yeah, and I love what you're saying about all of free to interject any final thoughts there, but I had one further thought about stoicism and I remember through kind of my family's breakdown. I remember kind of being suspicious and skeptical of like emotion

Tommy (25:21)

Yeah.

Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (25:30)

not to get too deep into Catholic theology here, kinda misinterpreted St. Ignatius on like, when he was just talking about like consolation and desolation, did anyone mention, listening, know, obviously we all go through periods in life where things are good. And you know, we're, and I'm simplifying this a ton, but when, you know, we're kind of in a good state, we're in a good emotional state, and then we also go through stages in life when things are like really dry and desolate and hard. And so more or less, I thought the goal was to be like somewhere in the middle, kinda like, know, like a stoic.

Tommy (25:38)

Mm.

Hmm. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (25:56)

And I remember just feeling like really empty and not really, ⁓ life was very bland. Cause when I was trying to kind of not avoid the highs, but also avoid the And then I remember visiting my brother who was studying in Austria and just experiencing like the beauty of creation and like having a great time with other people and like traveling and experiencing other cultures, like good food, all that stuff. And I was actually like in the end of high school. It was kind of a crazy situation. I was able to go visit him, but

Tommy (26:02)

Hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (26:21)

Anyway, long story short, I just realized was no way for me to live and that there's actually a lot of depth and beauty to life and a lot of meaning that can be found. And that's kind of the way I've been trying to live my life ever since. But it was a big transformation for me and maybe I'm not articulating it super well, but it almost like reality got color added to it when it was kind of black and white, or at least I thought that was the idea.

Tommy (26:35)

Yeah.

No, it sense.

Yeah.

Well, I think I heard this analogy for prayer, but I think it applies to life at large. And for prayer, you know, some people say, well, do you, are you in love with the Lord or are you in love with the feeling that you think you get from the Lord? Or it's a very common thing from.

churchgoers or Catholics especially, like I don't get anything out of the mass or don't get anything out of going to church, of indicates a sense that you're going the expectation that I need to receive something and if I don't feel then it's not worth my so there's like a dichotomy there of like, okay, do we just need to kind of trudge through and just, you know, do the things we need to do and that's it. And that kind of gets back to the kind of talk stoicism of just sort of like, your due diligence and that's it and feelings that have complete irrelevance or do do you chase the sentimentality?

and

the feeling and so forth. And that's also a problem. this is an analogy for prayer, but I it applies to life where need to have form and fire. Like form meaning discipline and getting up and going your feelings with the wind. The wind blows in your favor or it blows against you. But either way, you stick to your disciplines and what you know you ought to you make those moments, as Ignatius does say, I work at Judicial High School, so I've done some Ignatian formation,

Joey Pontarelli (27:47)

Nice.

Tommy (27:49)

You want to make good decisions in consolation when you feel clear headed. And when you're in a bad state and you're worried or you're anxious, you should not make big decisions because that's when you're like, quick, change things. then, yeah, so when you stick to your disciplines, especially when it gets difficult, but then it doesn't stop you from recognizing the goal that you still want to feel and you still want to consoled, is probably a better word to use, from prayer. And the goal of prayer ultimately is intimacy with the Lord. And so for life, I think there's the same thing.

Joey Pontarelli (27:59)

Hmm.

Tommy (28:17)

of a happy life that looks like Instagram perfect and so forth, but we all know that's not realistic. And so do you just like, just say, screw it all and I'm just gonna live life and pay my bills and death and taxes are the only two inevitable things and that's the narrative of life? Or do you recognize your duties and trudge through those difficult moments and chapters of life?

Joey Pontarelli (28:20)

Yeah.

Tommy (28:33)

but still never stop trying to make sure that you experiencing, you know, everyone lives, what's the cheesy phrase? but not everyone lives or something. But it's the same idea of how you know, stick to your disciplines then still cynical and sort of like accept a sort subtle despair of like, it's how it goes, how life is. But still never stop living life to the fullest. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (28:41)

Yeah, something like that, yeah.

Love that.

No, it's really good. I mean, I see that in you and knowing a little bit about, you know, your family and I definitely am trying to live that out and my family too. So I do think it's possible. see people do it and I think there's a lot of like joy and beauty there for sure. Yeah. And I've heard, I think it was Dr. Ted Suri who kind of similarly talked about like loving your spouse, about how you're not always going to feel it. You need to like will it.

But it's also true that hopefully there's a motion that comes along with it as well. So I like that balance.

Tommy (29:23)

Right, that's a

really good parallel there. that like, yes, philosophically speaking, love is located in the will and not in the passions and not in the emotions. But then people take that too far. It's like, true love is in the will. It's just like, will you marry me? And it's like, well, that's not very romantic. You still wish and hope that there's a parallel, if you will, between the will.

Joey Pontarelli (29:36)

Yeah

Tommy (29:47)

and the passions, right? So like the passion should be a reflection as opposed to a driver.

Joey Pontarelli (29:52)

I like that.

Tommy (29:52)

And so, know,

love should be a sentiment that accompanies what is technically primary, which is what you choose. You what you choose ultimately is the measure of your love. So sometimes you choose the difficult but the higher good when you don't feel it. you shouldn't just be like living life just like begrudgingly doing everything that apparently is good without a sense of seeking harmony among your whole human faculties of intellect, passions, and will.

Joey Pontarelli (30:01)

Hmm.

I love that. Yeah, hopefully you get alignment there and ⁓ yeah, I found like your lot of times your like emotions your passions like can follow your will to so it's like if you You know if I'm not like feeling crazy in love with my wife if I act You know as a man who loves and who is in love then those things what will follow I could talk to you forever about this stuff. anything else you'd add about like I guess childhood or growing up in terms of Yeah, just what that was like just to finish that picture of your

Tommy (30:19)

Hmm.

Yeah

Joey Pontarelli (30:43)

you know, kind of child rearing.

Tommy (30:44)

Yeah, I I think I would just reiterate that I'm deeply grateful for the, I think, mostly totally accurate picture that my a good man, but he's a sick man. I think that that narrative was at times too simplistic and therefore as a result led to a feeling of...

a lack of permission if you will to process the mess or like well, know and to and I think I think anger as a soul of responses is not correct having seasons of anger questioning or confusion is totally healthy to be

I think that's, I'm kind of speaking to the more of a stoic mentality of like, this is what it is and it's good we move forward. And I was by and large the best way to kind of grow up and to recognize and love my dad from a distance.

But of course there were questions that popped up as I got older of even just holes and not knowing lot of big details of my dad and so so I think everyone's story is different, everyone's process for processing is different. so I think there just needs to be permission and that goes back to the same thing we've been talking about of...

having a sort of a mercy or acceptance of an ugly, or not ugly, but a messy process, while still recognizing the ultimate goal is acceptance and moving forward and being transformed by those things. But not allowing that to be premature yeah, there's a book, The Body Keeps a Score, which talks about the physicality of things, but there's a sense of emotions are needing to be processed whether you like it or not, and you can pretend like you're not emotional or you're fine, but then that's just like just putting a timeline in the bottle and eventually it'll

Joey Pontarelli (32:08)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Tommy (32:17)

out later.

⁓ So it's just better to recognize the need to process those things in due time.

Joey Pontarelli (32:23)

That's good. How have you processed things, would you say? I know we've maybe touched on it a little bit, but I'm curious. Yeah, what's been helpful, I guess, for you in terms dealing with all that stuff and especially the emotions.

Tommy (32:33)

I think there were incidents in my life manifested that were, I guess, want to say strange, but were revelatory. And I realized, like, hmm, like what's, or it wasn't me, it was actually in one case a spiritual director who kind of helped me see a greater narrative going on.

So for instance, like when I went to college, I dated a girl my freshman year, which was by and large a really good relationship. I think there even to my own knowledge,

and a lack of awareness of some deeper things I was seeking actually in a father that I was actually trying to seek wrongly obviously in a girlfriend. that's not, I'm not paying the entire picture, but there is these kind of undertones. so when she broke up with me and I was still struggling and processing it way, way later, like even like a year, especially was like, whoa, okay, that's definitely not this girl. Like it's hard to be broken up with obviously.

but it's definitely something else going on. we kind of unpacked that it actually was still stuff for my dad. actually the fact that my grandfather, who was basically the closest I had to a father in my life, passed away before I went to college. And I had kind of like a family habit, just buried it, didn't really process it. I felt like I mourned it, but didn't actually really mourn his passing and realizing how huge that was to lose him. And to lose him at a crucial time in my life when I would have began asking him those deeper questions of life, of what it means to man and so forth. My older brother had that opportunity

and I'm obviously not envious, I'm very grateful he had that, but there's definitely like undertones of little jealousy of desiring the same for myself that he got this whole summer of just hearing my grandpa's wisdom poured into him, I didn't get that. you know, so losing him at that time was really pivotal for me.

And so that's one example out of a couple of recognizing this, okay, there's still stuff I have to process here. so in this particular relationship in college, think there was, you know, one thing I would highlight is that she was definitely not apt to give compliments that she didn't mean, you know, in this sense, there was a sense of a parallel of, know, the father figure, know, when he makes a sense of compliment, he means it. I'm not, you know, saying she was like masculine, but I am saying that there was this,

Joey Pontarelli (34:34)

Yeah.

Tommy (34:34)

⁓

That was an attractive quality of sort of like, she means what she says. also meant when we broke up, when she said certain hurtful things, those carried a lot of weight. Just the same with compliments carried a lot of weight. So yeah, so obviously I would...

Joey Pontarelli (34:43)

Hmm.

Tommy (34:46)

highlights a lot of good things from when I came out of that, but I also am very grateful actually for that experience by which I uncovered unfinished work and my own masculine heart. and also I think that's also where my prayer life really soared because I felt like I was just totally naked and had nothing left. I also realized how bad I was in making male friendships at college. So that really, I cleaned up my act there I poured way too much into this relationship my freshman year. I think that was...

Joey Pontarelli (35:07)

awesome.

Tommy (35:10)

I can highlight a few things, that's the one big thing I want to highlight is like a pivotal moment from my life of recognizing, okay, wow, there's a lot of, like father wounds that are not wounds of abuse, thanks be to God, or wounds of other things, but wounds of absence. And I've had powerful moments in prayer the Lord actually didn't even speak to me, he was sort of present to me, and recognizing him speaking, yeah, kind of an answer to prayer of presence.

as opposed to some kind of you know, lie that I needed to be healed from or so forth. So yeah, there's more to say obviously, but that's think one that is pivotal for me that I highlight.

Joey Pontarelli (35:39)

That's

Yeah, I know that's really helpful love how you mentioned mentors and just how important they were. We'll get to that in a little I think that's just so, so important. That's been so helpful and healing for me But it's so interesting you bring up this idea of like kind of going to the woman something you never got from dad. And I've been there and I know, you know, I'm sure you've read John Eldridge and wow that hard and

Tommy (35:59)

Yeah, all the heart and

Father by God.

Joey Pontarelli (36:03)

Father by,

Father by, yep, totally. Like great books, anyone who hasn't read them and who just wants to, even like women listening, if you want to understand men, John Eldridge has good hand on the pulse. And for men, it's just, it will just give you a lot of insight into yourself. But I just remember him talking about like how, I might butcher this, but know, the man goes to the woman to like offer his strength, not to find it.

Tommy (36:24)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (36:24)

And

man, have I found myself going to the woman to find strength, to find affirmation, just find again those things, the affirmation, the love, the whatever that I didn't get from mom or dad growing up. so I think we need to find it somewhere. And that's the thing I think where some people maybe stop. They just say, go to the woman for that. And then they never really give you the other option. So it sounds like your relationship with God has been really big. prayer life really big. You mentioned your spiritual director. What other mentors kind of...

Tommy (36:28)

Yeah.

Mm. Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (36:50)

walked alongside you and just challenged you to grow.

Tommy (36:51)

Yeah.

Yeah, so is kind of like the key for my process was just how to handle my own emotions, which where I had a little... Because I am, you know, I admit it in broad daylight now, I am a sensitive person. we think of sensitive as an inherently negative thing, meaning like you're touchy or like, whoa, like your emotions are ⁓ overly active. But we noticed the root word there is the same as sense.

Joey Pontarelli (37:09)

Yeah

Tommy (37:16)

as sensible. Like, he's a sensible person. That's like a very high compliment. He's sensible. He's got a- a handle on things. And yet sensitive. in any case, I think I've had my own grappling with like thinking about what does it mean to have yeah, I guess very operative passions. We'll put it that way.

I have a daughter who's very, she has very operative passions. And so it's at times with temper tantrums, it's ugly and it's intense and messy. And at times when she's very affectionate and very thoughtful, it's just deeply beautiful. And so you just kind of see her little two-year-old heart. And so I think I had a process of coming to accept that about myself where I had unfortunately a lot of cases of self-loathing for that character trait or that ⁓ also heard a homey one time by priest talking about

this notion of masculine and femininity and we tend to think of like a spectrum. These are the masculine virtues, these are the feminine virtues, and if you possess a lot of these feminine virtues, like for instance I can paint pretty well, can do certain things, I feel like I've been good at listening, understanding what people tell me and trying to have insight or whatever. Certain things that seem like And then that seems like I must be pushing a line toward the feminine side, therefore I must be less masculine inherently.

And the point he was saying is like actually you need to recognize this more like buckets that Christ possessed all virtues. And he was the ultimate man, but also we should be aspiring toward all virtues as opposed to like the spectrum of like the tinge between male and female. ⁓ So I think...

Joey Pontarelli (38:31)

you

Tommy (38:39)

The breakup was very pivotal for me because the fact I felt raw and was at war with myself. ⁓ And I didn't feel anger at God or even her. I just felt anger toward myself. anger toward my own personality traits, in some ways, immaturity that I felt manifesting as I couldn't handle my emotions and I felt like a mess. I felt my friends were leaving me because I was too messy to deal with or was too much of a Debbie Downer. And that was a really hard time of feeling very lonely.

that's also the time that I had a lot of mentors come out of the woodwork and really see me and kind of in some ways put that hand on my shoulder saying I wasn't too much and that's yeah maybe I was a mess but I was a mess that's worth cleaning up. I will never forget a conversation I had with a mentor. Now he's Brother Maximilian, he's a Benedictine monk, but at the time he was a senior.

Joey Pontarelli (39:20)

I love that.

Tommy (39:27)

He talked about Lazarus and he's like, what did Christ do? And I was like, I knew the answer, I was kinda like, I don't know. And just like, and says like, I don't wanna forget, he's effing bald. Maybe it's scandalous that he was the efferent, he's a monk now. Wasn't it yet. But he was just trying to really make that point to me, that Christ had very intense emotions and they were ordered.

Joey Pontarelli (39:37)

Yeah.

Tommy (39:47)

And there's different moments where he had to go to pray or he was with people or so forth, but he was a man for all seasons. then emotion inherently is not an evil thing or a bad thing. he was trying to heal my own idyllic...

Yeah, idolization of like the machismo stoic who has no emotions, complete control. And that to me was like the man I was trying to achieve and I felt totally unable to. And my own grandfather actually was also very, yeah, very, I wouldn't call him like emotional, but very the more sensitive spectrum, if you will. ⁓ Like deeply artistic, but also an engineer and very mathematical too. And so he possessed a sense of, but he was the like, my grandfather was the one to say, stop and smell the roses, stop and listen to the music and like soak it in.

So think those are the moments that I really kind of accepted my own, this can be part of my masculinity in a tangible and good way. And so I think it was that student now, Brother Maximilian, another senior at the time, his name is also Tommy.

Joey Pontarelli (40:33)

Hmm.

this.

Tommy (40:39)

He

also had his own kind of struggles. ⁓ So there's a sense of camaraderie, but also mentorship, because he's older than me. And I would go to the porch and talk to him every Saturday. It was incredible. And ⁓ a professor at the college that, when I studied abroad, really kind of...

Yeah, I guess it really affirmed me in the sense of my own mind and intellect, which is also something that wasn't really affirmed before. ⁓ I come from a pretty smart family and I always felt like I was a dumb ox. so that was a healing moment as well, a feeling like the sense that my intellect is also good and wanted to talk to me in dialogue and so forth. So I'll stop there. I don't want to talk too much, but I think the point though is that mentors...

Joey Pontarelli (41:20)

Great.

Tommy (41:22)

when I recognized I needed to recognize that vacancy then have them kind of be invited into mentors like helping me and recognize they wanted to when I felt like otherwise my life was always a rental I had to kind rent mentors you know it's like okay I'll tell you my problems and I'll tell you quick so you can give me an answer quick and I'll be on my way because I know you know I'm not your son and I don't belong to anyone so that was something adults work through

Joey Pontarelli (41:44)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (41:47)

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Joey Pontarelli (42:50)

Wow, so much there. No, thanks for going through all that. I, see this trend in my story as well as yours of just like the affirmation we received from like, you know, typically older, wiser men, whether they're like much older than us or like you said, just like a few years ahead of us. something really powerful in that. And I don't know if I totally understand it fully, but like we crave that we need that. Like that's how we become men. That's how we kind of grow in our masculinity. And I love

Tommy (43:11)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (43:15)

what you mentioned too about how masculinity doesn't just look one way. Like have to like hunting and drink beer and like do all these like, know, things that you'd think maybe a typical guy would do. But there's like this possibility of like, yeah, this depth that you can have, which I think is amazing. I think of ⁓ Pope Saint John Paul II, just how he was, you know, such a deep intellectual, but he played sports, he hiked,

Tommy (43:39)

Correct.

Joey Pontarelli (43:40)

wrote poetry, acted, like all these things that maybe you would think of someone who's more like sensitive or the feminine virtues like you He was probably the most masculine person I can think of. I've met people who like Jocko Willink, if you guys are familiar with Jocko Willink, the Navy Seal. I've spent a little bit of time with him doing some training and yeah, he's just as like scary and manly as you'd think.

Tommy (43:54)

⁓ Yeah.

Excuse

Joey Pontarelli (44:01)

And he's,

Tommy (44:02)

me.

Joey Pontarelli (44:02)

but at the same time, the guy like plays music and he actually would write like poetry, studied English. So anyway, there's like this kind of dual component, not to go too far into that, but I think that like idea like for me, it was a spiritual director, a mentor, really he's a spiritual also he was, he's a married guy who just had training in spiritualism, he wasn't like a priest. So he was able to like kind of affirm me and guide me, mentor me in a way that maybe someone who didn't have the background wouldn't be able to.

Tommy (44:10)

⁓ Yeah.

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (44:29)

And man, I just experienced so much healing from, and so much like, ⁓ I felt like so much more of a man after like with him, working with him, getting his advice. And I think at the core of it was that affirmation.

Tommy (44:31)

Yeah.

Yeah, there was another person in Nashville that I, when I after college I went to Nashville and he actually now is a therapist and I was talking to on the phone when he was in training so I feel like I kind of stole probably thousands of dollars of free therapy just by talking to the phone with this was also figure in my life of just walking me through things and I when life gets very difficult and challenging.

Those are the moments you see the whole of not having a father. And I think for those who have divorced parents or separate parents, maybe they're close with mom and not dad or vice versa. Obviously in my case, it's dad. And so those are the moments you feel the lack of one pick up the phone and talk to him and not feel like it's a burden because he's your dad. And you know he wants to help you. But in those moments when you have a pivotal moment in your life and you don't know who to call, it's difficult.

But I think one final note to say on just mentors is same spiritual director I talked about before, called me one time to kind of do kind of a quasi phone spiritual direction and talk to me. But I was telling him what I was up to in college and I was, you know, being truly honest, I was seeking to brag, I was just telling him what I was up to, which was a lot. Like it was an absurd amount, like I was like around the clock. know, I'm managing this, I'm taking these classes, da da da, and.

He's like listening, like, that's all great Tommy. He's like, are still trying to prove yourself to your dad that's not there to see all this? And it was just like one of those moments of just like straight to the heart of the matter. I felt like almost like the phone reached out with a hand and punched me in the stomach. Because it was just like such a, he just, he saw right through the BS. Not that what I was doing was BS, but he saw the motivation of my excessive seeking of accomplishments.

Joey Pontarelli (46:07)

How, yeah.

Yeah.

Tommy (46:19)

I've done a lot of things in my life that I'm proud of, that's great, but there's definitely been an undertone of like, prove yourself. Like again, back to my earlier podcast, like in this podcast saying, I know my life's a miracle, like I shouldn't have been conceived. Like my dad was already showing signs of being unhealthy before I was even conceived. So my life's a miracle, so make it worth something. just the sense dad's there and my, you love me? Do you really love me? It's a sense of.

this ache of the heart to hear a father's voice to affirm. And when it feels like it's not there, then you find yourself with a consciously or subconsciously chasing an affirmation via accomplishments. So what was healing for me is just like trying to tone that down, but also to receive affirmation from men. And then that's also with our girlfriend that, you know, it can be great to receive compliments, but a girlfriend can never give you what you're seeking from a father, obviously.

Joey Pontarelli (46:56)

Wow.

Yeah.

Tommy (47:07)

And so when

I actually had mentors who were older than me, who were actual sages, compliment me or to affirm me in ways that were palpable, those are deeply healing. And actually I could feel different chaps in my life have kind of like slowing down a little bit I don't need to hustle so hard just to prove my lovability. And a lot of us find ourselves chasing this unknown destination just to feel loved by a parent or a wound, you're trying to heal. And it's important to diagnose that.

Joey Pontarelli (47:23)

Bye.

Hmm.

Yeah, no, so and harder than it seems. Now, like looking back, know, so you're so articulate about it, but I bet it was a journey to like even get to that point of figuring it out. So I'm totally with you there. I want to touch on quickly something you said about this idea of being like needy or messy or whatever language we'd throw around it. I think there's a lot of people who find themselves in this position, especially if you've gone through trauma and you have like

Tommy (47:36)

Yeah.

Hmm. Anyways.

Yes.

you

Joey Pontarelli (47:59)

Yeah, your emotions may be all over the place. You're struggling with maybe bad habits or your relationship seems not to be working out. And you could feel like this mess, this problem that maybe no one wants to deal with. If someone finds himself in that situation, I'm curious to your advice, like what should they do? Cause obviously on one of the spectrum, we don't want to like bring all of our problems to like one person and like dump it on them. Cause then they'll probably not be able to handle, especially if it's like the friend or a peer, so not really equipped to do that.

Tommy (48:20)

.

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (48:27)

the other end of the spectrum, it'd be really dangerous. Like we were talking about before to be like, no, I'm going to like do it solo. I'm going to go alone figure this out and, you know, put on a good face. So yeah, what's your advice to someone who maybe finds himself quote unquote needy or kind of kind of a helpless.

Tommy (48:41)

Yeah,

mean one obvious answer would be like therapy is I think it's there's been a lot of good movement and the stigma surrounding therapy that people are recognizing truthfully and properly that you know we need doctors for physical health why don't we need doctors for mental health and I think unfortunately the trajectory is that we're mentally very unhealthy more and more in the modern age and so we need a lot of doctors for our minds to help us kind of ⁓ so I think there are certain things that

are spiritual in nature that you need a priest for or a spiritual direction to pray. But there's also certain things that you can't just like pray away. There's like just legitimate psychological things you should consider a work through. I definitely know my dad can pray away his OCD or the abuse that happened to him or his previous history of anorexia. so I think that's one more obvious thing. But I think, but even that can be difficult because I've been to therapy.

a couple times, first two men I saw were, unfortunately, were very unhelpful. They were actually just kind of, let's figure out the problem, solve it, and just felt like talking at me. And I actually felt almost more of a burden, like I was taking too long to process, or they feel like my story's being absorbed so that they can kind of have actual insight into my story. And so I just felt like we fixed the problem and move I think that as a gift that, you

Joey Pontarelli (49:48)

I get that.

Tommy (49:52)

generally speaking when they bring to this world of not being utilitarian and how they approach life. so I would say that should be a viable option, but also that can cost a lot of money I think ideally it's community of recognizing true mentors and good friends. And I think there's a, I don't know, I guess the more intense the issue or the sensitivity of it, there's a more of a tendency to

offloaded to one person so it's kind of neat and tidy and then I can box I think there's some health something healthy who know you and have the right amounts of knowledge of you based on their knowledge of you. What's that? How do I phrase this? It's like you know a lot of people know that I grew up without a dad but then a lot of my cleanesses may know that and that's it and then that can stay that way unless our friendship would deepen.

Joey Pontarelli (50:20)

Hmm.

sure.

Tommy (50:37)

And

then there's like mentors and then deeper friends who know more of a story. And I think it's appropriate because there's a sense of an onion or a layers to people's knowledge of you and your story. that you're not like, it's one person has all this mess and everyone else thinks my picture perfect life. And that's like to live in communities. You don't want to be, you know, back to the, you know, bottle versus a brood. You don't want to be like walking around the problems to everybody, but you also don't want to pretend like you're this perfect person to everyone you meet as well.

Joey Pontarelli (51:00)

Yeah.

Tommy (51:04)

So I think those who feel messy, think yeah, seek mentors and don't apologize for it. at least I'm gonna give them asking perspective here. I'm not a woman, but I know going to a man and saying, hey, can I've done this to men. I've gotten bolder as I've gotten older. I'm like, need advice in this particular area. I actually just grew up without a father. And sometimes there's certain questions I don't know who to ask and I need a mentor. And older men.

Joey Pontarelli (51:26)

Awesome.

Tommy (51:28)

respond very well typically to that question. I think there's a deep desire for older men to impart their wisdom, which is also being lost in our modern culture, where the idea of older people are considered more outdated and actually less knowledgeable, and younger people are more knowledgeable because we have the internet and they're more tech savvy. When the old way of looking at life was that the older people are ahead of you in life, have lived more life, and have more to offer you, more wisdom, and they're our sages.

Joey Pontarelli (51:31)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Tommy (51:52)

And so I think we need to reclaim that, of recognizing the wisdom of older and that they can have something to offer Even a marriage, a couple have lived and been through a long marriage, like I know this is tough, but you'll be through this and it's gonna be okay. And they're not bothered by what you're telling them. And that's deeply consoling. I'm giving just a hypothetical here, same can apply to talking to a mentor or a sage story of your parent's separation and how to cope with that.

Joey Pontarelli (52:03)

Yeah.

No, so good. And what I've learned there before we move on, there's like this kind of gentle balance between going to other people for help and wisdom and guidance and everything, which is like, totally agree with you. That's super necessary. And in some people's situation, making sure you're acting on it. Cause I think there can be this tendency I've seen in some people where we kind of can become addicted to the knowledge or the advice.

Tommy (52:34)

Hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (52:43)

or even the relationship itself, almost as if, well, this problem or this struggle that I have gets the attention of these people that I want their attention. And therefore I'm never really motivated to solve it because it keeps getting their attention. ⁓ And so I think like it's important that we're, you know, actually, you know, taking what they say and putting in an action because I think there can, you can cut in this loop as well. Anything you'd add there before we move on?

Tommy (52:43)

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, I would just say, think particularly for friends, good friends obviously are not there you just vent for venting sake, but to help you. And so a real friend would also can tell a difference between a need to kind of unload something off your chest or to take it to something versus like, okay, you're just venting now. Didn't you talk to me about this two weeks ago? Have you done anything about that? Like, didn't we talk about you doing this or this or this? Have you done any of those things? Like, and a mentor can do that too, but I sometimes friends in that peer level. I would add that...

Joey Pontarelli (53:30)

Yeah.

Tommy (53:34)

This is where community is helpful, is that you're in community, you're with people, and you're accompanying one another. You're carrying each other's burdens. That's true communion of the good, the bad, and the ugly. don't want to stay in the ugly or the bad, but you also want to celebrate the good, but then you recognize the dynasm of life. And if you're doing phone calls to a friend across the country, ⁓ they're not with you, they're not seeing you, they're not seeing improvements, and there's something very beautiful about the incarnate experience of being with people.

and can hold you accountable to continue to strive toward healing.

Joey Pontarelli (54:06)

I love that. That's great advice. Just before we close down here, I'm curious if there are any other ⁓ maybe big problems, whether it was bad habits or I know we talked quite a bit about emotions, but emotional problems or kind of relationship struggles that you saw kind of stem from everything that happened within the family.

Tommy (54:10)

Yeah.

Mm.

could go in to talk about habits, but I think the bigger thing I would articulate is lies that I believed that I had to heal from. And they still crop up. It's not like I'm a totally healed person or something. But the first one is I would say is I am alone. That is a huge lie. mean, again.

speak from my Catholic perspective, the devil, the learning means to separate, to cast apart, God's whole movement is communion, bringing together, integrity meaning the integers are one, to remember, to bring back the members into one. And the devil is all about isolation and making you feel like you're alone, because once you feel like you're alone, you can't ask for anyone to help you, then he's got you, and he can do whatever he wants with you, because then he's your master.

Loneliness is a very big epidemic right now, but also the lie of I am alone because that's an existential thing. I think I felt that very potently when I had that breakup or other moments in my life. We're feeling misunderstood and then feeling like the accusations like, you feel misunderstood because you're so sensitive and get over it. And then that kind of like deepening and then that deepening self-loathing and so forth and that being a very unhealthy cycle. And so I've had to do a lot of work on trusting that I am.

Joey Pontarelli (55:26)

Hmm.

Tommy (55:36)

I am not alone. prayed through the gospels of the baptism in River Jordan and this is my beloved son with whom I'm well pleased. ⁓ And Father by God actually was a pivotal book for me to kind of recognize and know that I'm ultimately never alone. I think ⁓ another one is just regarding, I already mentioned, it's the I still do it, but I catch myself when I'm doing it. The ways that I'm being performative for the sake of proving my worth.

like I, you know, thanks be to God, I finished a master's degree. and I know at the culmination of it, it was all good intentions, but there's even in the midst of it, I'm like, okay, am I doing this just to catch up with my siblings? Or am I doing this just to feel at par with others or to prove myself that I can do it or that I'm lovable, you know? And those are things you have to ask yourself when you're trying to aspire to some great accomplishment or good, or even how busy you are.

Joey Pontarelli (56:04)

Congrats.

Tommy (56:24)

For whatever reason, we feel guilty for leisure in America especially. It's like, how are you doing? Busy. it's like like, we hail it as a wonderful thing. When it's not going to be busy. It's actually very bad to be busy. It's a sin to overwork. There's a commandment, know, the Sabbath day. It's sin to be lazy, that's true. But it's also sin to overwork. And so I've had to think about that one of like my busy-bodiness. I've prayed a lot through Mary and Martha in the gospels of Martha just running around.

Joey Pontarelli (56:38)

Hmm.

Tommy (56:48)

And because ultimately she also wants to be at her Lord's feet and be loved. But she's unable to because of the interior problem as opposed to Mary who's got the capacity to just receive. So that's a big one. Yeah, and think would say a simpler thing is just like my life's a miracle, which is true, but to accept that as a good thing and not to feel like that's also a diagnosis or an imperative make my life worthwhile or look impressive or something.

and just to live my life and to know that God has found the present moment and to live my God's will in each day without sort of like trying to aspire to these great things for the sake of saying, it was worth it. I'm a great accomplished person and my life was actually worth living. And that sounds almost suicidal. I don't mean to imply that sort of thing, but that's the other Yeah, so I think, I would say lies are the ones that I had to battle with the most of these kind of subliminal things.

Joey Pontarelli (57:29)

Hmm. No, no.

Good.

Tommy (57:38)

that then manifest in certain actions, similar to my dad, there's an obsession and there's a compulsion. And I think in the same way for me, there's been lies that I've believed because of an absence of a father a insecurity, meaning like this lack of a secure knowledge of being beloved, of being a son and so forth, and that manifesting then as a compulsion in a sense of my own way, my own way of proving myself because I'm really looking for an answer to a question should be found elsewhere.

Joey Pontarelli (58:05)

Wow, so good. And I love like that I've never really heard anyone articulate that whole idea that like I shouldn't really be here and so therefore I have to make my life worth something. I think maybe people feel it in a different way, but I love that idea. Like what I heard you saying was like your life is a not a competition. Like there's not something you need to like win or perform at here, which I think is really beautiful for all of us here. So good. I love all that man. And

What else, in addition to anything you've mentioned, would you recommend to people when it comes to healing? You mentioned mentorship, spiritual direction, anything else you would say? I know you mentioned a book here, there too, a few books.

Tommy (58:41)

Yeah,

I actually want to read your book. I was actually unaware of it until recently, so I'm excited to. Life Healing Wounds is another one that I've actually unpacked a little bit. I still haven't finished that book. More explicitly talking about divorce, separation, and so forth. But yeah, mean, think books have been helpful. But I think overall, think it is owning your story.

Joey Pontarelli (58:50)

Nice.

Tommy (58:59)

And in a way that goes back to same thing we've talking about a lot of stoicism versus victimhood or bottle versus brood is to process the emotions and to have knowledge to process, like to have knowledge of what happened and to process it. That's more of my story because I have data because I was so young I didn't even remember it. So my story is different even than my brother's because he saw a lot of it happen when he was like seven or Whereas for me, I had no memory.

different kind of, know, in some ways easier, in some ways maybe more difficult, I don't know, it doesn't really matter. It's different. but ultimately I think what's what's helped me the most is sort of like I just said an ownership of this is my story and so I...

I don't want to live by it in the sense of, oh yeah, I'm the guy without a father, because that can be helpful. So for instance, I work at a high school and I've taught, and there's moments where in class I can see this question and I tell a piece of my story that would be very relevant and helpful. But I don't walk into places just revealing it for the sake of, oh, look at this guy who suffered. Because I also think that sometimes suffering is weaponized, where it's like I've suffered more, and that's also the victimhood complex of who's

greater victim. And this also breaks my heart about divorce and separation in general is that it's so common.

think a lot of people don't feel like they have permission to suffer or permission to feel hurt or sadness because like, well, it's half of America, so get over just because something is common does not make it any less intense. And I guess my story seems a bit more exotic or, well, you know, there is mental illness, there's abuse and family history and, you know, I grew up without a father and I have a heroic mother. That's all true. But it doesn't mean that normal story of parents have disagreements, they divorced and now you have two best

Joey Pontarelli (1:00:14)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Tommy (1:00:39)

bedrooms is any less, in fact it could be in lot of ways, in many ways, much harder than I did not experience. I didn't have two bedrooms. I wasn't splitting time. ⁓ So I think it's just a path of ownership and acceptance live life. So not ignoring, but not identifying with. that takes many forms of friends, of mentors, of books, of prayer.

Joey Pontarelli (1:00:44)

Hmm.

them.

Tommy (1:00:58)

⁓ So I wouldn't give it like one diagnosis. I think that's the goal. But there's many different paths that help build that up. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:06)

Yeah, I I love that advice. I remember Alex Hormozzi, business influencer guy. He says there's no silver bullets, only like hundred golden BBs. There's like a lot of little things you need to do. And I think it's just so true in life. There's like, man, if there was like one thing you could do to be healthy and whole, we would all probably do it, but there's not, there's a lot of little things you need to do. So I love that advice. It's good. And ⁓ yeah, man, I work.

Tommy (1:01:23)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:28)

Pretty much out of time now. I wish we could talk more about like relationships and marriage, but maybe we'll save that for a future episode. I guess in closing, if you could, you know, speak to parents and maybe say anything that, you know, you would want to just be honest about everything, like what would you say?

Tommy (1:01:30)

Okay.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, I have articulated, but I feel like I can never tie or articulate my admiration for my mother and how she handled everything ⁓ and how she was, yeah, just, she sacrificed so much for us. So directly to her, there was not much I would want to say directly to my mother you know.

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:48)

Easy question.

Tommy (1:02:06)

But I think perhaps to my siblings, it's a feeling that like if I've said something that's been difficult with my mother or challenge that my siblings come to our defense and say that I feel my own sense of immediately come to my mom's defense because we know how much she suffered, how much she's done for us. But that comes with it again, this inability to say anything. And that's been challenging because we need to have freedom to process without being accused of being ungrateful. And that's a challenging thing. And I would really emphasize that, that a lot of people feel like if I criticize or process or say something that's difficult, therefore I must

Joey Pontarelli (1:02:28)

Hmm.

Tommy (1:02:36)

be ungrateful to. It's like, look how much my mom suffered, my dad suffered, and they get to point to those and it's like, that's all true. I'm not disregarding those by saying, this has been difficult for me. Or you misunderstand someone saying something and know what you meant, but I'm just trying to process what I've understood or perceived it. mean, to my dad, I think, you know, I wish I could...

tell him I love him and I do when I have had those opportunities and given those big life updates of his granddaughter, his first grandchild, and that was getting married and those letters that I wrote him.

But yeah, I do have more honest, raw questions of like, okay, how much could you have done? know, financially speaking, he didn't support us whatsoever. Like it was rough. ⁓ We grew up externally looking very middle class, but the reality is we grew up very poor. I'm grateful for certain things, but, ⁓ and that was a huge hardship. so I really believe in providence. know God will provide, know, with very little means. But, you know, that's one more raw thing I would, you know,

Joey Pontarelli (1:03:24)

Hmm.

Tommy (1:03:36)

I wouldn't say say to my dad, I don't want to have this revengeful, the one-liner mic drop. ⁓ But in a conversation, yeah, there's always more I'd love to understand and to forgive because you can't really forgive if you don't know. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (1:03:40)

Yeah, that's it.

Tommy (1:03:51)

and this is actually still current for me of like unpacking certain things that happened or and understanding what was truly his illness versus what was more willed and kind of yeah kind of like a negligence on his part of what he could have done because it all began when my mom gave an ultimatum of saying Either you continue going to this therapy this this program to heal or I have to leave you and unfortunately his he stopped going and he's like i'll be fine ⁓ and so my mom left with all of us thinking it would be maybe a day and that became

days, weeks, months, years. So I think there's always a desire to have conversation, but you know wouldn't be like a one-line mic drop.

Joey Pontarelli (1:04:26)

Yeah, I know that, mean, there's a lifetime of things to say, I'm sure. So I definitely appreciate you sharing all that. And I know I just appreciate your attention between like acknowledging the good, but also the hard things. And yeah, I think there is that temptation sometimes in all of us to think that those things are mutually exclusive when they're not. can say both. Yeah, which I definitely am.

Tommy (1:04:29)

Yeah. ⁓

course.

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (1:04:47)

think is appropriate and necessary. But Tommy, so good to you man. Thank you. You have so much wisdom. I hope you know that. I'm so impressed to learn a lot from you through this interview. So appreciate you sharing that with all of us. And I know better for it. So thank you for being on the show. I want to give you the final word. What final advice, encouragement would you offer to everyone listening, especially maybe that younger you who's out there right now listening, what would you say to them?

Tommy (1:05:08)

What

I say to my younger self? That's a hard one. I mean, I know this is maybe corny, but yeah, mean, just say it's not your fault. ⁓ But that's a loaded question or a loaded statement. You know, of course, we can think of good will hunting and that scene of Matt Damon breaking down. It's not your fault with Robin Williams. But there's a sense of owning. This happened to you. This is not good.

And it's not your fault. So I don't know to me that that statement implies You know this this did happen. So accept that

but also forgive them, forgive yourself in a sense for any kind of false accusation that may have occurred in you. To me, would be like stop being so performative, like you can relax and not try to like do every last thing and feel anxious that you're not doing enough, your resume's not packed enough and all this other kinds of nonsense. Yeah, so I would say that's the, there's been a lot of like seeking approval, seeking love. And I that's probably the biggest thing

is you're loved infinitely, your life is infinite dignity and value it's okay to feel these things but also to not just to sit in them and so I guess I keep going back to that same theme of acceptance means recognizing but not sulking. That's hard to do and it's a long process to have patience with yourself that is the journey and we're all in a journey and tend to have this utopian idea of like okay I'll be better on the other side. It's like well I mean there is enough

the

side but not fully like we're always going to be in a pilgrimage in the veil of tears there's always gonna be suffering and difficulty and so it's about acceptance and allowing those things to transform you but the new sufferings will occur to embrace them yeah so it's not your

Joey Pontarelli (1:06:54)

That wraps up this episode. By the way, if you want to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. If you want, we could even post your story as an anonymous blog article on our website. Go to restoredministry.com slash just click the link in the show notes to share your story.

free to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And if you've already done free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find the podcasts.

In closing, always remember, you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CSU who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.