The Divorce Mistakes That Hurt Children Most | Erica Komisar : #180

Divorce is traumatic for children at every age—but parents can either deepen that wound or help their children heal.

In this conversation, licensed clinical social worker and psychoanalyst Erica Komisar explains why a “good divorce” requires parents to stop focusing on what feels fair to them and start prioritizing what their children actually need. She shares practical ways to create stability, reduce emotional damage, and protect children from being pulled into adult conflict.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why frequent transitions between homes can destabilize children

• How to tell children about a divorce without overwhelming them

• Why parents must avoid oversharing, badmouthing, and using children as messengers

• How a parent’s emotional regulation affects a child’s ability to cope

• Why flexibility, sacrifice, and stability matter more than rigid ideas of fairness

If you’re divorced, considering divorce, or trying to help your child adjust to a family breakup, this episode is for you.

Learn more about Erica Komisar, her books, and her work

Get the free guide, “7 Ways to Work Through the Pain of Your Parents’ Divorce”

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:00)

Erica, welcome to the show. So good to have you.

Erica Komisar (00:01)

Thank you for having me.

Joey Pontarelli (00:03)

So many divorced or divorcing parents feel super lost when it comes to how to help their children. And one thing I've noticed too, Erica, is that hearing that divorce is traumatic for children of all ages, it's kind of a hard truth for them to to stomach. And so to the parent listening right now, who might be tempted to maybe even turn off this interview, why might it benefit them to keep listening to what you have to say?

benefit them and their children.

Erica Komisar (00:31)

Divorce is traumatic for all children, and that can't be denied, but there are ways to mitigate the trauma. There are ways to help children to cope with it so they come out of that experience more resilient and capable of having loving relationships. And so so that's really an important and hopeful message that, you know, although it is a challenge for children and not a challenge that we should deny is a challenge.

There are ways to reduce the the negative impact on those children so they come out emotionally healthy.

Joey Pontarelli (01:03)

I couldn't agree more. And and I agree there's I think been somewhat of a trend in the past to maybe not call this a trauma, but I really appreciate your voice on this, saying no, it is a trauma, but there's a lot of hope and that we can, you know, give them the help that they deserve. On that note, I think we do have to har start with the hard truth. Like why is divorce traumatic for children of all ages?

Erica Komisar (01:23)

Well, it's probably one of the biggest losses. First of all, you know, I think the divorce rate is between forty and fifty percent. So that means that at least one in two families face divorce, right? And so what that means is not all those families have children, but of the ones who have children, it means that those children are exposed to one of the greatest losses that they'll ever face in their lives, which is the loss of the nuclear family, the loss of the unit, the loss of the security and safety.

That having a mother and father who love each other and live in the same home provides for children. Children have and need a kind of illusion of permanence. You know, we know that there's no permanence in in the world. Bad things can happen and and there's there's loss that we as adults know is is coming. You know, we don't live forever. And so we know that loss is part of life, but for children, they need

A kind of protection from that as much as possible. So the idea that relationships are permanent and unconditional, and that you have this constancy is really important for children's development. So when parents say we're not gonna live together anymore, we don't love each other anymore, it destroys that.

illusion for children that protects them and helps them to develop in a healthy way. And then they have to reinvent an idea of what security means. So it really interrupts it's a disruptor of children's emotional security.

Joey Pontarelli (02:55)

Couldn't agree more. And having, you know, gone through my parents' divorce and mentored so many young people from divorced families, I I think you said this elsewhere. It truly feels like the death of your family. And I think if we start talking about it there, then we can help them grieve and like you said, move on, move beyond it, close that chapter in their lives. But I think I you're wise to start with, yeah, I I think we have to face that hard truth. But I want to shift gears a little bit. You say that a good divorce is better than a bad divorce.

marriage. So there's obviously a lot to unpack in that statement alone. I wanna start with

Erica Komisar (03:27)

Misinterpreted,

it can be misinterpreted. So, and it often is misinterpreted for that people think that I'm promoting divorce, which I'm not at all. What I'm saying is that the old research, so my book was written because the research had changed about divorce, which is the old research from the eighties, a woman named Judith Wallerstein wrote a sort of a book about how all divorce was damaging to children in ways that meant that you probably shouldn't divorce, you know.

And the newer research talks about how it's actually worse for children to live in a family with intractable conflict, unresolvable con conflict that leads to hostility between parents or even abuse between parents. That children do best when their parents are together and love each other and are affectionate and show their love for one another. That's when children feel the most secure.

With parents who love each other. You know, when little kids go, ew, you kiss mommy, or ew, you hug daddy, that is the best thing in the world for children, right? To see their parents love each other. We know that, but the the the idea that parents then hate each other or are hostile towards one another or are have unresolvable conflict is very damaging for children in a way that two parents living apart

And raising children in a co parenting situation that's more peaceful and civilized is actually found to be better for children than leaving in intractable conflict.

Joey Pontarelli (05:04)

That makes a lot of sense. And I appreciate you saying that you're not just saying ever anyone who wants a divorce, here's a guide you can use and your kids will be okay. That that it's really what you're describing is really the lesser of two really bad options. That's right. That makes so much sense. And so I want to dig in a little bit further if it's okay into this idea of a bad marriage. 'cause I think when people hear that, they might kind of fill in the blanks with, Well, I'm unhappy right now in this my season of my marriage and therefore it's a bad marriage, therefore I should get divorced. What would you say? You defined it already well.

But I'm curious, what would what else would you say are kind of the hallmarks, the signs of a marriage where it might be at the point where a divorce is necessary?

Erica Komisar (05:42)

When you no longer respect one another. You know, the ingredients that help a marriage to have longevity, you know, love is a word that we throw around, but love is it's it's a combination of many other feelings. respect, trust, admiration. I always say that when you stop admiring the person that you're married to, when you stop trusting them, when you stop respecting them, it's very hard to live with the person. And so, yeah, I mean

the word we use love is sort of a a a collage of other f of other feelings. And I would say one of the biggest things that's hard for parents is when they stop respecting and admiring one another.

Joey Pontarelli (06:24)

Okay. And do you think a bad marriage can be rescued?

Erica Komisar (06:28)

You know, the word bad and good, they're childlike terms and they're very binary. I think marriages that are challenging and challenged can be worked on. I do. But, you know, I I think that there is a problem today in that I think as a whole we have a population, maybe three generations of not very resilient people. And I'm gonna say, you know, my generation is responsible for

almost two of those generations now. And, you know, since the sixties, I think the whole family constitution has changed. I think the ability to cope with adversity has diminished because of the way we raise our children. And I've written other books that talk about that. But I think that we're not providing our our very young children with the kind of emotional security they need to cope with difficulty and challenges and adversity and conflict and

We're not around enough to teach them how to deal with conflict effectively. And so I think what ends up happening is a little bit of conflict can tip the balance. Whereas marriage generally has a lot of conflict. There's a lot of conflict. I mean, I use a term which I've used many times before, which is that there is no intimacy without conflict. You can't be intimate with a person unless you can get angry at them safely, unless you can tell them exactly how you feel.

unless they can get angry at you and tell you exactly how they feel because you're not the same person. And you're also, you know, in a traditional marriage, you're not the same gender. So genders are different. And so there is the myth that men and women are exactly the same has harmed marriage because men expect women to be like them and women expect men to be like them.

And there are there are there's a lot of crossover and similarities between men and women, but there's also a great deal of difference in terms of how they nurture what's important to them, how they relate on an intimate level, what they need. And so this kind of gender neutralizing has done a lot of harm to, I think, to marriage, because it's made men and women feel that if the person isn't exactly like them.

And which is a narcissistic fantasy, by the way, that you should marry someone that is a complete and total reflection of you. Of course you want someone who can reflect some who can reflect your differences, who can look at you and say, you know, I see you're sad. That person may not be sad, but they can look at you and say, I see this has made you sad. But today I think there's the expectation that the person is going to be exactly you.

What that's doing is that is condemning a lot of young people to being alone because you're never gonna find somebody exactly like you.

Joey Pontarelli (09:24)

You so good. Yeah. And I do think that's a whole nother topic for another show, but I do think a lot of there's a lot of unrealistic expectations for, like you said, what to look for in a partner. but like I said, another show for another time. One of the things that comes up frequently is this idea, you know, when deciding maybe if you're gonna get divorced or not, is this idea of emotional or psychological abuse. Yeah. it's definitely a tricky thing. I wanted to get your advice on this because with sexual or physical abuse, there's, you know, obviously it's it's a clear there's clear signs. You you can see it pretty clearly.

But how do you discern between abuse and bad behavior when it comes to emotional and psychological?

Erica Komisar (10:00)

That's

good question. I think the word we throw the words trauma and abuse around a lot. And so what I would do is define the difference between big T trauma and little T trauma, and and say that the big T traumas are: is somebody physically hurting you? Is somebody sexually hurting you? And then I think what we call little T traumas, which have never been recognized.

in the divorce court system until recently is emotional abuse. Is someone critical? Does someone undermine you? Does someone demean you or diminish you? And you know, make you small emotionally? And so what we understand is that big T traumas are are more concrete, they're more evident, but little T traumas of emotional abuse are not little at all. They can be more devastating because

The rest of the world may not identify them as trauma and also may not see them because they're done quietly in the privacy of your own home and you don't get a physical bruise from them. And so, you know, I think it's really important to recognize emotional abuse or emotional trauma as important because I think it's probably the main reason that people get divorced, not because of physical or sexual abuse, but because of

emotional abuse. And so yeah, there is a difference, but I think I think the the important thing is to recognize the emotional the criticism, the the demeaning, the diminishing as being important in terms of the destruction of a relationship.

Joey Pontarelli (11:41)

Relationship.

Yeah, absolutely. What I've kind of gathered on this, because I've asked different people their opinion on this, is that it has to do maybe with the seriousness of it, the persistence of it, whether there's any sort of corrective behavior, and also the impact on the person on the receiving end, maybe more of a clear sign. Like if you know one expert said that, you know, if someone's throwing so much criticism at you that you end up

starting to experience signs of depression and different things like that, then that's a pr pretty clear sign that you might be in a situation of emotion.

Erica Komisar (12:15)

But we look for patterns in life. So if in other words, if someone circumstantially is going through a very hard time and they are particularly difficult to live with or they are they, you know, they blow up or they're emotionally dysregulated in a very acute way, you'd say the ability to to to help that person through whatever trauma they're going through is part of marriage. And so the chronicity is a big

factor, looking for patterns, but if the person's character is impaired. And when we say chronicity, we're looking for characterological things. So, you know, people often ask me, what's the difference between therapy and analysis? Because I'm a psychoanalyst and we do both. And I say, well therapy is about dealing with symptoms and dealing with immediate pain. Analysis is about character logical change. It's about, you know, someone who has had

longstanding characterological issues. You know, either they can't regulate their emotions in a in a regular, in a in a constant way, and there's cranicity to it. So yeah, we look for the difference between something that might be symptomatic of a circumstance in that person's life and you wouldn't divorce them if they're they've lost their job and they're they got, you know, circumstantially depressed. And would you leave your spouse? I mean I would hope not. I would hope you would help them through like any illness. But

If they are chronically since when you got together with them or since you married them and there's been a pattern, that's quite a different thing, you know. yeah. I think chronicity has a lot to do with

Joey Pontarelli (13:56)

That's a really helpful distinction and maybe we'll leave it there for now 'cause there's so much else that we can talk about. I wanna shift gears to this idea of like a good divorce. Wha what would you say is a good divorce? A good divor

Erica Komisar (14:07)

Force is one in which two people are the term used to be amicable, but I would say have good open communication, work together, and still have a modicum of respect for one another. You may not be in love with the person anymore, but you still care about them and you still have a modicum of respect for them. And so in that way you can co-parent in a respectful way. Because I think respect is really the word that.

you know, r some respect. If you respected them fully, you might still be married to them. But if you can hold on to a modicum of caring and respect and you go into the co-parenting situation, you know, in a healthier way, and you put your children first, that there's an agreement that no matter what feelings you have towards one another, no matter what has transpired in the marriage, that meant that the marriage didn't work, that these children aren't

divorcing either one of you. They are going to be connected to to both of you forever. And that you want to as a couple, you've made a decision that even divorced, you are going to focus on the health and mental health of these children and put their needs before your own selfish needs.

You know, the concept of fairness should be stricken from your mind when you think of divorce. Because adults go into a divorce situation and into custody situations thinking about what's fair to me as the adult. What's my share? What's my share of the money? What's my share of the children? And they'd end up treating children like inanimate objects or possessions, not like the human beings that they are who have.

developmental needs that have to precede your own sense of fairness. Because the truth is that, you know, what I say to parents is if you can avoid divorcing, this is a Judith Wallerstein moment, if you can avoid divorcing before your youngest is three years of age, I would recommend it highly, unless there is a real physical or sexual abuse situation. If you've had these children together and you cared about each other enough to have them.

Hold on till your youngest is three, because that is a critical period, that zero to three, where tearing that family apart would not be best for anybody and certainly not good for those children. You know, if it's not good for those children to disrupt attachment security, it's not going to be good for you as parents in the long run. So in that case, you put your children first and you wait. You wait till your youngest is three. After that, you have to look at

Who that individual child is, a sensitive child may not be able to be separated from their primary attachment figure, who's usually the mother, not always today, but usually the mother, for long periods of time. And so the idea that you split a baby like a sandwich, like you cut it in half, you get half, and I get half, this whole weird idea of 50-50, which didn't exist, you know, 75 years ago. There was something called the tender years doctrine, which

made it possible for people to divorce, but still the primary attachment figure was considered to be critical to that child, even through the primary school years. So the idea that children need to rest their heads in one home with with one primary guardian, even though both parents should have equal access to them. So let's say it was the mother who the children lived with. The father

could have as much access to the children during the week in a good divorce. So if you want to know what a good divorce is, that the father or whoever is the non-primary attachment figure parent has as much access to that child during the week, picking them, dropping them off at school, picking them up at school, having pretend sleepovers, having dinner with them.

But that when they when it came to overnights, they rested their head on the same pillow during the week, particularly when they were in school. So it didn't disrupt constancy. And then when the weekend came, the father or the non-primary attachment figure took the children, and the children who were older at that point were were doing sleepovers on the weekends with their father. That is still the best way. It's still the best way. Now, when children hit adolescence, it can shift.

So children say, and even in primary school years, you know, a little boy may need his father more and say, I want to live with daddy. And that shouldn't be necessarily fought by the mother. And maybe the idea is maybe it is best that the primary guardianship is daddy and then you get the little boy on weekends. So

the concept and particularly in adolescence that happens a lot where teenagers will say, I want to live with the non-primary attachment parent. Now I want to see what that feels like. And you say, that's fine. You know, w you you need us both and you you haven't lived with your dad during the week in a long time. So let's switch. Now you live with your dad during the week and I get you on weekends. It's it's removing the tension with about fairness from divorce and looking at what children actually need, not what you need.

And that's a really hard thing to do because there's so much pain that disrupts your good judgment. that disrupts your ability to sacrifice and do what's best for your children because you're so focused on your own pain. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (19:31)

Which I understand, you know, if you've ever had a toothache or stubbed your toe really bad, it's like all you can think about is that thing. And so I've definitely seen parents where, you know, in other contexts they're great, you know, people, but they're just so hurt and there's so much emotion that they're almost blind to the damage they're doing to their children. Absolutely.

Erica Komisar (19:50)

We call it defensive aggression. I mean th this concept of two two three, which is the most common divorce custody arrangement in in America, is so very damaging to children. It is so s whoever is listening to this, it is so very damaging to children.

Children who grow up and then have reported back to me as patients, as adult patients, say that was one of the things that damaged them the most. That they were thrown around like a sack of potatoes from home to home and never had a sense of constancy and didn't feel stable. So I don't know if anybody who's listening has ever had the experience of like traveling, where you're traveling out of a suitcase and you're going from place to place two days and two days and three days.

I used to call it traveling through Europe on the tour, you know, one night in Amsterdam, two nights in London, you know, three days in Paris. And by the end, you're just like, I want to be home. I want to be home. And so it's this weird idea. So parents could never adjust to that, which is interesting. If you can't adjust to the idea of two days in one place, like a rock star, two days in one place, two days in another, three days, and then two days and two days and three.

Why would you expect your children to be comfortable? Children are more vulnerable, they're more sensitive. And so if you take that paradigm off the table, which the lawyers and the judges love to throw because it's it it it splits the baby in half like a sandwich, and say, actually that's a terrible custody arrangement for children. Absolutely terrible.

Joey Pontarelli (21:25)

No, I couldn't agree more. And on that note, what is nesting and does it have benefits to the children? So you just found out that your parents are getting divorced, or maybe the pain from their split has started to resurface. Either way, you feel alone and you might even be experiencing emotional problems like anxiety, falling into habits that you're not proud of just to numb the pain, and struggling in or feeling afraid of romantic relationships. I've been there, I totally get it.

But worst of all, perhaps you fear that one day you might repeat your parents' story. If you can relate, I wrote a free digital guide for you. It's called Seven Ways to Work Through the Pain of Your Parents' Divorce. Inside, I share practical steps that you can take to grieve the loss of your family, healthy ways to deal with your pain, and expert tips to heal those wounds. It's what I wish someone would have told me years ago, seasoned by 20 years of experience navigating my parents' split.

Listening to hundreds of young people from broken families one on one and helping tens of thousands of us heal and grow. You are not alone and you're not doomed to repeat your parents' story. Download your free guide at restored ministry dot com slash seven ways or click the link in the show notes.

Erica Komisar (22:33)

For young children and when you first divorce, yes. So even if you don't have young children and you are just divorcing for the first year, I like the idea of nesting because it helps with the transition. Nesting basically means that the children stay in the primary home and the parents go to a secondary home. So let's say you buy a pied de terre an apartment that's separate. So, you know, maybe them the mother would stay in the home.

In that way you might be able to do two, two, three, you know, if the children were in the primary home. The children don't move. The problem with that is that it doesn't work past about a year. And the reason I say this is because parents end up having a need for stability. So this is so interesting. Parents go, I can't live out of a suitcase. I can't do this two, two, three thing anymore. And I'm like,

That's the point. So why would you expect your children to do it? yeah. And then what happens is parents also start to have relationships, adult romantic relationships after about a year, if not sooner. And then it becomes very complicated because where do you bring your girlfriend or your boyfriend back to? To the same apartment, and now you're sleeping in a bed that is

the same bed that your ex-husband is sleeping in with his girlfriend, or you're sleeping in the same bed as your ex-wife is sleeping with her boyfriend. So it doesn't really, it's not really practical for very long, but it does work for the first year while everybody's in shock and there's a sense of sort of shock and awe and you need to adjust sort of in transition. But long term it doesn't work. No. Okay. Best

Joey Pontarelli (24:16)

No.

Erica Komisar (24:17)

is for parents to live

Close to each other, nearby in the same town. you know, even walking distance if possible for school age and adolescent children. where they can walk back and forth to each other's homes. And and again, not the two two three arrangement, you know, the idea of either four and three or

five and two, it works much better for children. And again, it can alternate. So maybe when children are older, they switch and they live, you know, and maybe certain children have more sensitivity and you might have two or three children, not just one child. And children don't all have the same need of their of their primary attachment figure. Some have more of a need for their mother or their father than others. And so you have to respect that.

And so if you have three children and one of them just can't do an overnight at your house, don't make a big deal of it. Do pretend overnights. Do a day full of activities and love and spending time together. And when it comes to sleep time, bring them home to the bed that they need to be in and the parent they need to be close to. Again, if you prioritize your child and their needs and their sense of security, you can't go wrong.

Joey Pontarelli (25:34)

No, that's so good. Yeah, just kind of zooming out from this conversation, I'm thinking, My goodness, this is just so complicated and thinking back to, you know, when I had to do a lot of this as a, you know, teenager, young young adult.

Erica Komisar (25:46)

Are afraid

their children they'll lose their children's love. The truth of the matter is they're more likely to be loved by their children when they make sacrifices than when they don't. When they're selfish and self-oriented and narcissistic, their children, whether they are children or adult children, will always have hostility and resentment for those parents. Children know when their parents are being selfish. They have radar for their parents' selfishness. And so

When you can put aside your narcissism, as I say, lend your narcissism to your children. You get it back later. You don't lose it. You're not giving it permanently, you're lending it. Lend them your narcissism and let them be the focus and not you be the focus. Your children love you when you put them first. They don't love you when they get older, when you've put yourself first. And they know it.

Joey Pontarelli (26:42)

Yeah, no, they do for sure. And I wanna go back to this idea though of like the kind of less bad ages to get a divorce. So you mentioned the worst time would probably would be the zero to three. Is there another bad phase in a child's life where a divorce related sandwich?

Erica Komisar (26:58)

So in adolescence it's the second critical period of brain development, but you can say to parents they can't divorce throughout adolescence because adolescence is nine to twenty-five, but there are sensitive periods even in adolescence that make it harder for children. What we call in America middle school years are probably the hardest years for children other than zero to three, because there's so much going on emotionally, physically, they're going through puberty.

There's social drama, what I call the shifting the of tectonic plates socially, you know. they don't feel stable in their identity either, their sexual identity, sometimes their gender identity today, certainly in terms of friendships and who they are and their place in the world. They just don't know where they stand. So everything is moving. So you don't want to take away whatever little stability they have in those middle school years. And middle school is about fifth.

grade till about they go into high school till ninth grade. So you know we say that's middle school years. And then you don't want to divorce just when your children are going to college. Now why is that? Because and that's something that's was very common in the past that parents would say, particularly based on Judith Wallerstein's book, let's stay together. We're gonna stay together till they go to college and then we're gonna divorce the moment they're freshmen and they're out of the house. Yeah. And what that does is it takes away the tether

For them that tethers them to something stable. They need to know as they're traveling out in the world, they're travelers for the first time, exploring themselves out in the world as individuals, separate from their parents. They're trying to individuate, they're trying to figure out who they are. That is the worst time, other than zero to three, to take their stability away. So, what often happens is parents do that, children go to college or leave home and then they break down.

Right away in that freshman year, they break down. And so if you've held it as long as eighteen years, hold it a little longer. Hold it for another couple of years till they're more stable, till they have good friends at college, till they start to get a sense of themselves in the world. and waiting those couple of years will make a huge difference to that child. Still gonna be devastating to them, but not nearly as devastating as the moment they leave for school. You know, because there's also the implication that

not only they don't have a stable home, but that they that in a way their presence out of the home has caused the break. And so that what that does to children is it makes them feel guilty and it makes them drop out of school to come home with the fantasy that they'll bring the parents together again, that their sickness will bring the parents together. So that's another really bad time. So what are the good times, maybe you'd want to ask me. So what are the good times, Eric?

Four four till about ten, that's a little more stable. Freud used to call those the latency years. It meant not that they're latent, but that they are a little more emotionally stable. It's still important to be sensitive and empathic as you're going through this divorce process, but a little more stable. And then in adolescence from about fifteen to seventeen, make sure you leave at least a year between getting divorced and them going to college, you know, a year to a year and a half so they can get used to the idea. So yeah, those are the

the better times. And then, you know, the best time is when your children are over twenty five and and and they've established themselves out in the world and they have their own homes and their own jobs and their own significant others and they're on the verge of getting married and having their own families. That's probably a more stable time.

Joey Pontarelli (30:42)

One of the challenges a lot of parents face is not knowing how to break the news to their children. And so what's the least damaging way to break the news?

Erica Komisar (30:52)

Don't do it on a holiday or a birthday. don't do it on any anniversary that could be remember it matters when you do it. Don't do it before a big exam. Don't do it before a big soccer game. Yeah. Don't do it in a way because they're gonna remember that date forever. You know, there's lots of parents who do it like, you know, on a holiday. They do it right around Christmas holiday, and that Christmas Christmas is ruined for that child like forever, you know. So do it at a time when you're not gonna

when you have time to process it, like a vacation potentially, where you have a whole week to process it, or maybe in a summer break where there's a lot of time to process it because children aren't running off and going to school and lots of time to go and spend time with them and take long walks and talk with them and and make sure if you can do it together. And when you tell them, make sure that you tell them in such a way that they understand that although you are no longer in love with one another, you care about one another.

And you will never fall out of love with them, that although parents, adults, there's an illusion of unconditional love. The truth is adults can fall out of love with one another, but parents never ever ever fall out of love with their children. Because the assumption in children, particularly young children, is that if you can fall out of love with each other, well then you can fall out of love with them because love is no longer permanent. So make sure that you distinguish the difference between romantic love and love for your children. And then, you know.

Do it in a way where you're asking questions of them and meaning, do you have questions of me? So give them some information. We always say when you're giving children information, give just enough information that it's truthful and honest and sensitive, but not too much, don't overwhelm them with information, but ask for questions. You know, do you have questions about that or where you're gonna live or you know, how it's gonna work, or so.

you know, sort of explore with them if they have any questions and say it's okay if you don't right now if you need to think about it and you can come back and ask us any questions that you have. We may have the answers right now and we may not, but if we don't have the answers, we'll tell you and then we'll come back and give you those answers when we have those answers.

Joey Pontarelli (33:07)

I like the advice you gave too in your book that's if you have older kids and younger kids you might need to talk to them separately or have maybe a more detailed conversation with the older kids. On that note, when you know, a lot of the young people that come to us, their parents split because there was an affair, there was infidelity. How much do you share? How much do you not share? Yeah.

Erica Komisar (33:24)

You don't overshare. I mean, that's another, you know, so I have the top, the hit list of things that parents do wrong and and the ones that they do right. one of the things is oversharing. Don't overshare. don't share your pain with them. There are plenty of good places for you to take your pain, and you need to have buckets to put that pain in. You need to have a therapist, you need to have good friends that you can trust, you need to have extended family, you need to have places you can go.

And to talk and communicate and express your feelings and get support and comfort, but that is not coming from your children. So don't overshare with your children. Containment is the word. As parents going through a divorce, it's very important that you can contain your pain and bring it to the proper place, but not leak all over you.

Joey Pontarelli (34:12)

Children. That's really helpful. There's one situation, Eric, I'm thinking of where unfortunately dad is an addict and he's greatly impacting how I think that's a 13 year old daughter views mom. And so one of the questions that came up from mom and the family is like, how much do we counter that? Like obviously it's not wise in that situation to fight fire with fire.

Erica Komisar (34:37)

No it isn't.

Joey Pontarelli (34:37)

But like, what do you what do you do in that situation when maybe one parent's, you know, just spewing

Hate and

Erica Komisar (34:43)

Alien it's

called alienation. It's not only oversharing, it's a little bit of alienation. Alienation isn't just physical alienation, it's emotional alienation. So when you bad talk the other parent, what you're doing is you're you're alienating that child from one of the parents. Remember that child needs both parents and needs to be able to love both parents and needs to be able to make their own decisions about so can you control the other parent? No, but you can you can be your best self.

The the thing about divorce is you can't necessarily control the other partner, but you can be your best self. So what would it mean to be your best self in that situation? It would mean that you ask your child what it's like for them to have their, in this case, their dad speak badly about mom. How is that? That must be so hard. You know, it's you know, divorces are really hard and people are in a lot of pain. And sometimes when they're in pain, they'll share their pain with their children. So

I I wonder what it's like for you to hear your dad talk like that about me. And you just you become a good listener. You know, we we say God gave you two ears and one mouth. You're supposed to listen twice as much as you talk. So the I idea is to be able to listen to to their pain and be empathic and say, that must be hard. I hear you. You know, is there anything I can do? But you do not know, you do not fight fire with fire. Absolutely not.

Joey Pontarelli (36:04)

Yeah. No, that that's helpful 'cause I think it's a real temptation to try to v assign blame and it seems to be a very fruitless thing.

Erica Komisar (36:10)

Contain

think containment. Contain when you have a bad situation, you wanna contain it. You don't want to throw gasoline on the phone.

Joey Pontarelli (36:19)

Yeah. And I think what I've seen over the years is eventually the children kind of become very good at recognizing, okay, this parent's like kind of off the rocker. This one's been very stable and secure. And you do tend toward that parent who's You do. Yeah.

Erica Komisar (36:34)

You do and they do.

Joey Pontarelli (36:36)

So maybe just a waiting game into some respects. So you mentioned that

Erica Komisar (36:40)

Faith and it's not just faith in God, it's faith that your love for your children and your emotional health and security will win out. And it's not a winning and losing, but in this case what you're winning is you're winning your children's love and respect. That's what you're winning.

Joey Pontarelli (36:56)

If you know someone whose parents are separated or divorced, or maybe they're in the middle of the process right now, you probably want to help, but you're not quite sure what to do or say in order to help them. And if so, you're not alone. It's a really common struggle. That's why we created our free guide: 10 tips to help someone whose parents are separating or divorcing. It offers really practical, tactical things that you can do or say to help them, and especially to help them feel less alone, the top things to avoid saying or doing that might cause harm, and then what they need the most from you.

during this time. But most of all, the guide helps you feel competent and confident in offering help. And so get the free guide at restoredministry.com slash ten tips, restored ministry dot com slash ten tips, either the number or the letters, or just click on the link in the show notes. You mentioned that there's kind of a a checklist of items that parents need to avoid. And so I'm curious what were some of the other things we can't go too deep into them, but what are some of the other things that you advise parents to avoid?

Erica Komisar (37:48)

Using your children as a messenger, that's a very common thing. You know, when parents don't communicate well, they tend to use their children as messengers. And you don't want to do that. You don't want to overshare, as I said, pain, but also sexual information, anything. You don't want to share information about affairs or, you know, you want to be your best adult self. And again, the word containment comes to mind.

Yeah, I mean I would say those are the big ones, sort of not splitting the baby, not alienating, being very careful about how you talk about that other parent. That I think the expression was if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all. And so I don't know why we've lost that, other than the golden rule, which is treat others as you would hope to be treated. The most important golden rule is that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.

And be a good listener with your children. The most important thing is when your children come back from the other parent, they can often be dysregulated and the transition is very hard. Don't react hysterically to that because parents get into hysterical states and they'll call me and say, my God, my child is and I say it's normal for children to have an emotional reaction, particularly if there's too much transition. Children don't like transition.

They don't like it. This is why two, two, three should be thrown out of courts. And any parent is listening to this who has the ear of their ex say, let's figure out a solution that doesn't, that isn't a disruptor to our children's emotional health. This too many transitions back and forth and back and forth and back. It's too much for children. And so you're more likely going to get a child who is dysregulated and develops symptoms because of that.

And so the better situation is to have a stable custodial home while still having 50-50 decision making, 50-50 access. So again, giving your spouse access to come walk your children to school and pick them up from school and take them to dinner and take them back to their apartment or house for for dinner or doing their homework or but then bringing them home if they want to come home. Now sometimes children will find I want to stay at daddy's and that's okay too.

The idea of flexibility, you know, we say that parents that are inflexible cause children a great deal of damage. Although structure is very important to divorces, if you are inflexible, it's very, very painful for children. And an example of that is, you know, if a parent has a schedule that they're supposed to keep to, but the child says, but

You know, I I wanna stay at daddy's tonight or I would like to stay at mommy's tonight. I'm really tired. For that parent to say, you know what, that's okay. I understand you had a hard day. I'll come get you tomorrow. Instead of saying, This is my day, you're coming to my house, getting on the phone with the ex spouse and saying, This is my time, mine. This is this damages children. you know, we say

A hardwood tree, we just had a big storm up here in Connecticut, a hardwood tree in a big storm is more likely to break than a softwood tree, because softwood bends, right? So we say an ego that is flexible is a healthier ego than a rigid ego. And so the ability to be flexible and do what's best for your children, even flexibility in in arrangements of custody, if your spouse, ex spouse says, I gotta go on a business trip.

For you to say, you know what, I'll take It's okay. Don't worry about it. And maybe when I have to go away, you'll take them when it's not your time. The flexibility and the working teamwork, working relationship. That's what's best for children. When parents get rigid, when they get sort of possessive, these are really bad for these are bad things for children.

Joey Pontarelli (41:43)

Yeah, I couldn't couldn't agree more. You mentioned the idea of emotional regulation. How do you teach young children or even teenagers emotional regulation? Wait, what's maybe like one tip, the best tip that parents can use?

Erica Komisar (41:55)

Be regulated yourself. That's the best tip I I can use is if you can regulate your own emotions. If you don't leak, if you are contained with your emotions, then you can help your child by being calm, by being empathic, by being sensitive, by listening. that's the best way to help your child to regulate their emotions. Usually dysregulated children are children of dysregulated parents.

Joey Pontarelli (42:21)

So good. No, I appreciate that. And just anecdotally, what I've seen with the young people we work with is that probably the most damaging situation, aside from abuse in those extreme situations, is when a parent turns a child into an emotional confidant, the whole spacification idea. So just to double down on what you said, it's just so damaging and it feels good in the moment. The child even feels like they're being helpful, but over the long run we just see it wrecks the relationship.

Erica Komisar (42:46)

Yeah, when children are parentified, you know, it what what often happens too is I'll add another thing, which is the the asymmetry can affect children if one parent moves on emotionally and romantically and the other doesn't. The asymmetry affects children, so that's something to watch out for too. Children feel guilty when their parents are left alone, when they're going to a parent in a step parent's house and

And so it's very important that you disavow them of that and you express that you're okay and that you, you know, you have a full life and you have friends and you are dating and and they don't have to worry about you because children tend to feel guilty and worry about the parent that they're not with.

Joey Pontarelli (43:29)

Especially on holidays, I've noticed with myself or with the young people we serve, it's like you feel so guilty leaving alone or leaving dad alone going to the other side. And so I I really appreciate you you saying that. to a young person listening right now who might want to share this episode, Erica, with their mom or their dad, but might not know how to go about doing that, what would you say? How how might they get that in their into their hands and encourage them to listen?

Erica Komisar (43:52)

I would say to say that it's helped you and that you're hoping it helps them, that this that listening to this podcast has helped you a lot and that you're hoping that it improves the relationship with them and helps them too. And it would mean a lot to you to have them listen to.

Joey Pontarelli (44:06)

Erica, how can people follow you online, get your book and what else do you offer? So

Erica Komisar (44:11)

You

can reach me at www.comisar K O I S A R dot com and you can see all the things I've written and all the podcasts I've been on and and you can also buy my books. There's a a place that you can also get in contact with me if you want to make an appointment. and I'm on Instagram and I'm on, you know, on Twitter and so I guess X. And so yeah, you can also follow me on social media.

Joey Pontarelli (44:37)

Amazing.

It's been so good talking with you. Thank you for the good work that you're doing. And I want to give you the the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you offer to divorce or divorcing parents?

Erica Komisar (44:48)

You know, I would say being your best adult self and even if your partner isn't, that in the long run by just being your best self because you can only control yourself, you can't control another person, and putting your children first, sacrifice goes a long way in terms of emotional health and what can feel painful to you in the short run may be better for your children in the long run.

Joey Pontarelli (45:18)

That wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you. Feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And in closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Catholic Annulments: Questions Children of Divorce Are Afraid to Ask: Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez, JCL #179

If your parents are divorced and seeking a Catholic annulment, it can feel confusing — and even scary. What is an annulment? Is it just “Catholic divorce”? Does it erase your parents’ marriage? And the question many children of divorce are afraid to ask: Does this mean I’m illegitimate?

In this episode, I’m joined by Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez, JCL, Director of the Metropolitan Tribunal of Denver, to explain what annulments are, how the process works, and what they do — and do not — mean for the children of divorced parents.

In this episode, we discuss:

• What a Catholic annulment actually is

• Why an annulment is not the same thing as divorce

• Whether an annulment makes children “illegitimate”

• How the annulment process works

• How to cling to Christ when your family story feels confusing or painful

If you’re a child of divorce who has ever wondered what your parents’ annulment means about your family, your identity, or your worth — this episode is for you.

Free guide: 7 Ways to Work Through the Pain of Your Parents’ Divorce

Book: It’s Not Your Fault

Restored resources

Book Anthony recommended: When Is Marriage Null? by Paolo Bianchi

Chapter 4 on Annulments (It’s Not Your Fault)

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:00)

Anthony, welcome to the show. So good to have you here. This is such an important topic for, you know, for Catholics. And so I'm excited to dive in. What I've kind of observed anecdotally when it comes to young people whose parents are divorced, maybe seeking an annulment, is that there's a lot of confusion around this annulment process, around what an annulment is, what it's not. And so I'm hopeful that we can kind of shed light on it to answer, you know, some questions. Because some people some young people will wonder, it's like, man, if my parents get an annulment, does that like make me illegitimate? Does it mean my family

is kind of erased, as my parents, you know, marriage essentially cease to exist. Like the lot lots of questions, lots of confusion. So I'm I'm really excited to dive into that. Before we get to those questions, just for everyone listening, you are an expert in this area. You have a lot of expertise here. And so if you would tell us a little bit about your job as the judge and director of the tribunal in Denver. Yes.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (00:49)

Thank you. I'm the director of the Metropolitan Tribunal of Denver. Before this, I was in Colorado Springs. I worked in the tribunal as an auditor and a judge. I began working in 2007 for the church for the tribunal. Yeah, what is it, 18 years of experience, something like that now? So I have a bachelor's degree in philosophy, I have a master's in theology, and then a license in canon law. So I've held several different positions in the church and the tribunal throughout the years, from auditor to advocate to notary.

assessor and now judge and now in Denver as the director of the tribunal.

Joey (01:25)

Okay, very good. And to anyone listening who's like, What's a tribunal? Maybe could we talk a little bit about like church law and tribunals? Yeah, yeah.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (01:32)

Yeah,

the tribunal is the kind of judicial branch of the church. If you think of the church as sort of like the government, you have the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch. Now in the United States, those are separate powers, right? Not one person holds all these, but they're separated between various groups. In the church, however, it's the bishop who holds all three powers. So the bishop is the executive power, the bishop is the legislative power.

And the bishop is the judicial power. the judicial system exists to resolve disputes. You know, Saint Paul gets on the Corinthians case 'cause they're taking their ⁓ disputes within the church and they're going to civil courts and civil judges. And Saint Paul gets on their case and says, you know, why are you doing this? Why are you taking your cases to the unbaptized when you should bring them to the church?

So there was a very early tradition in the church of court of the bishop holding court and hearing cases. One of the primary ways that that's done today is through annulments. So the would be Catholics or anyone who's interested in maybe marrying a Catholic and they want to dispute their marriage.

You know, it looks like a marriage on the surface, but now they bring a petition to the tribunal, the Catholic tribunal, and say what appeared to be a marriage, really was not a marriage for some concrete reason. Okay.

Joey (02:54)

And thank you for for clarifying that and that that's fascinating about kind of the structure of the church being under the bishop. Makes a lot of sense. So you kinda went into it already, but I'm curious, like to anyone wondering again, like what is an annulment exactly? Would do you mind explaining that?

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (03:09)

You know, w we think of marriage as a relationship, right? But it's it's deeper than just a relationship. It's it's built on a relation. Now, what is a relation? A relation is an ontological kind of category. You have a relation between your father and your mother, right?

So father-son, there's a relation there. Mother-son or mother-daughter, there's a relation there. And then on the basis of that relation of father-son, you can build a relationship. Okay? And so I think we see this with father and son. It's very clear that there's a a level that's the relationship level, and then there's a level that's the relation level. Even if your relationship with your father completely falls apart and you profess you hate each other and you never talk to each other again, the relationship may have died, but the relationship

is still there. You're still the son of your father. Your father is still your father, right?

No matter what the relationship, what happens to the relationship. The same is true with marriage. So when you show up to church and you pronounce the vows, you give your consent for marriage, that establishes this relation of now husband and wife. And hopefully on that is built a relationship, hopefully a very good, you know, loving relationship. But the church teaches is even if that relationship goes south and and dies and they hate each other and don't want to talk to each other anymore, there's still that relation, they're still related as husband and wife.

And that ultimately comes from scripture. Jesus taught this. He said multiple times in the Gospels that if you marry and then divorce and remarry, you're committing adultery. And so the church has over the centuries reflected upon that and said, okay, well that means that when you get married, there's this ontological relation that happens. And no matter what happens in the relationship, you're still gonna be husband and wife, even if the relationship dies. So what is an annulment?

An annulment is kind of looping around after the fact, after the relationship has died, and examining that relation, that husband-wife relation, and asking, was there anything that interfered with that at the time of the wedding? Is there anything that got in the way so that this relation between husband and wife really never came to fruition? That these were just two people that lived together, that had a relationship together, that built a life together, and then that relationship died. So that's what the annulment process.

process is about is again going back and looking at that more ontological level, the the level of the relation of husband and wife.

Joey (05:35)

Okay, that makes sense. And for anyone maybe unfamiliar with the term ontological, what what's the rough definition of that? It has to do with being

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (05:41)

With being

kind of a way of being. So this is more than just a job, right? You could be a plumber and and that's just your job, your j your function. But I'm talking about a deeper kind of level of being, where it's like I'm a husband kind of before anything else. So that's kind of the deepest aspect of of my being is as a husband, as a son, things like that. And then you can build on top of that relationships and

Joey (06:08)

Okay, that makes sense. So it's kind of that layer of identity and especially the deepest identities that we hold and ways of being. That makes a lot of sense. So from what I hear you saying, the annulment process, which we're gonna get into in a second here, is not a Catholic divorce. Sometimes there's confusion around that.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (06:22)

Yep. Yeah, so the church has a long history of opposing civil divorce. Again, going right back to the words of Jesus. You know, Jesus said if you're married and then you divorce and then you remarry, you're committing adultery. The logic there is that divorce really doesn't do anything. Divorce is essentially meaningless. Divorce does not affect that relation of husband and wife. What divorce does is says that the relationship has come to an end.

that for whatever reason we can't live together under the same roof, we can't make this relationship work. And so we're gonna put an end to this relationship. We're gonna stop living together. We're gonna maybe stop sharing finances or or whatnot. But the church has always taught that that does not do anything to affect that relation of husband and wife. So even though the state

Proclaims that it dissolves a marriage with a divorce, that you're no longer husband and wife. The church says that's essentially a fiction. The state has no power to dissolve a marriage, to make a husband and a wife no longer be a husband and a wife. So the annulment process is looking at that deeper level. It's it's looping back around after that divorce, after the relationship has come to an end, and really asking those questions about what happened at the church, what happened when we were giving our

Consent. Were we capable of that? Were we thinking the right things? You know, that kind of thing.

Joey (07:42)

Okay. No, that makes sense. And it's so fascinating what you said about the church's history and kind of opposing civil divorce. I'd like to talk about that a little bit more. So it is fascinating when you read the gospel that Jesus was very stern. I don't know if maybe there's a better word to say about this, you know, saying that in the beginning, you know, this thing, divorce, what it was not so

And Moses basically allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts, you I'm paraphrasing. But talk about that a little bit. Like so this is something like Jesus I remember hearing Doctor Scott Hahn say, like, yeah, the church has kind of tried to soften in some ways what Jesus said, but has had a hard time doing that. So yeah, talk to me about this history.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (08:23)

Yeah.

I mean it it's a bit of a hard teaching. But it's a hard teaching, I guess, in light of our own weaknesses, right? The original plan was that a man and a woman they find each other and they become one. And that becoming one, you know, no one can undo that. And that's the reality of of marriage and what marriage is. But because of our own hardness of our hearts, because of our own sinfulness, because of our own, you know, bad behaviors and and whatnot, many times it's difficult, if not impossible, to maintain

That that kind of relationship. So the church has really struggled with this, I have to admit. I mean that the Jews were struggling with this, you know. Jesus pointed out that in the beginning it was man and woman for life, you know, one union that no one can separate, but because of the hardness of their hearts, you know, divorce became a reality. It it's not the ideal reality, right? But it is the reality even of our own world. I mean, divorce is kind of everywhere. Nevertheless, the church holds marriage as a sacrament. Marriage truly

Truly is a reflection of the relationship between Jesus Christ and the church. And just as God became man, he took on human flesh, he wedded himself to humanity in an irreversible way. You know, God is never gonna wake up tomorrow and say, Well, I'm just done with the human race, I can't take it anymore, right? Let's file for divorce.

Joey (09:44)

Yeah, I hope not.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (09:46)

He probably wants to sometimes, but But God is faithful. God is true, right? And so He's despite our own sinfulness, despite our own weaknesses, He's never gonna leave us. He's never ever gonna abandon us. And so marriage is supposed to be that sign and symbol of this relationship that we have with God, with Jesus Christ. This indissolvable relationship that no matter what we do, you know, God is gonna be faithful to that. And that's what marriage

should be a reflection of. You know, marriage doesn't mean there's gonna be no hard times. There may be hard times. There may be adultery, you know, there may be infidelity within marriage. And these are extremely difficult things to deal with. But if you think, well what would Jesus do?

I mean Jesus did do this. He wedded himself to us, to humanity, and we decided we hated him for that and we nailed him to a cross. And even though we did these horrible things to him, he still loves us and still remains faithful to us. So there's a beautiful calling there. Spouses are called to be that faithful example of Jesus Christ. So if if your spouse falls into adultery,

I mean again this is extremely difficult to deal with and there's probably lots of therapy and and things that need to happen, but the Christian is called to be like Jesus and to forgive and to find a way to reconcile that. So that that's the ideal. That's what scripture holds out as that's what marriage is.

Joey (11:16)

Yeah, no, and I I love people are probably thinking, Well, what about this case and that case? And we can get into all that 'cause I think there's so much wisdom in h how the church does you know, holds the standard high and doesn't falter on the principle. But of course there needs to be prudence given particular situations. So like the case of infidelity that you said, it's like, Well, if the fidelity's ongoing and unrepented, that's one situation. But it's a different situation if the if infidelity was like repented and

ceases. Yeah. That's kind of another situation. So so I know I know there's kind of like all these fine details and even reading a little the very little canon law that I have read, there's even very specific instructions for like what to do in different situations, even though it does require like human interpretation. Yeah.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (12:01)

Yeah, yeah. And you know, like you said, there's so many different situations. You could be in a situation of abuse where you know one spouse is being abusive towards the other. And in those situations, I think it's for the safety of the one being abused to separate themselves from that situation. you know, you have to take care of yourself both physically, mentally, and spiritually, and you can't allow someone to abuse you or beat you up or or whatever. So there's times that it's necessary to separate yourself, to to seek a separation or or possibly a divorce. Anytime it

Catholic though gets a divorce, you have to have the churches thinking about divorce. Divorce doesn't really mean anything other than a separation. It's we're still husband and wife, we still have those obligations, even if we're not living under the same roof, even if we can't communicate in a healthy way together. So Catholics, you know, can get a divorce, but they need to be thinking about it in the in the right way. The divorce is not the end of a relationship, it's maybe the changing of a relationship. But it ultimately we're still husband and wife.

Joey (13:00)

That makes so much sense. It is fascinating to read the catechism and to see how it seems to talk about divorce in like two senses. Like you said, in one sense it could be used as this legal maneuver in order to protect a spouse and her children. Right. In another sense, when used in correctly, a divorce can be used as kind of like a an exit plan to go seek my own quote unquote happiness. Right. Am I right in understanding it in that way? Yeah.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (13:29)

I think

so. I mean Catholics just you you have to be careful that you don't fall into that secular mentality of well, marriage is just too hard for me, I'm giving up on it, I'm gonna go find my happiness somewhere else. I mean to some degree that's legitimate, but you just always have to remember if if you married this person you're still married to them, even if you're not living under the same roof, even if you're separated, even if you're divorced.

Joey (13:52)

No makes sense. And that being said, there is a reason for the annulment process. Like there are legitimate cases, even even if our culture and like our secular way of thinking maybe veer so far from what God originally intended, there is a purpose to it. And so I'm wondering at a high level, yeah, how does the process work? Like if someone, you know, is like I think my marriage wasn't valid, or we can get into all that, what are the steps at a high level?

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (14:16)

Yeah,

at a high level I think the first step is always meet with your parish priest. Your pastor can help direct you, figure out, you know Usually there's someone called an advocate who helps someone who's in need of a declaration of nullity, helps them kind of maneuver the process, fill out all the paperwork, but most importantly make an argument. Really that's what we need.

someone to do is to make an argument that my marriage wasn't valid for these reasons. And most people this is kind of beyond them a little bit. So ⁓ we have advocates who can help people do this. Some t it depends, every diocese is different. You know, sometimes the pastor is the advocate.

Sometimes it's the associate pastor or the deacon who's the advocate. Sometimes there's a layperson who's an advocate. Depending on the diocese, maybe they don't even use advocates, but maybe you need to contact the tribunal and and talk to someone there to get the ball rolling. So it d depending on what diocese you're in, what parish, where you're at in the country, that can look different. The initial stage of reaching out to someone in the tribunal can look very different. But I would say it's always a good idea, just go talk to your pastor. Your pastor will have good advice for

you on on where to go and how to get this thing started. But essentially it's contacting the tribunal and getting a bunch of paperwork and filling out a bunch of paperwork and then submitting it to the tribunal. But beyond the paperwork and the bureaucracy, it's you're approaching the church, you're approaching really the bishop, this is the bishop's judicial power to decide these cases, and you're you're asking for a judgment. You're asking that what appears to be a marriage, what appeared to be a marriage to everyone

That the church overturned that presumption.

And declare that the marriage, even though it looked like a marriage on the surface, really was not a marriage at all. And that always requires some sort of evidence or proof. So you have to both articulate a specific reason in canon law and then prove that or provide evidence for that. Evidence is always are usually gonna be witnesses. You could have documents that could be proof, like if there was some sort of maybe psychological disorder, maybe someone was diagnosed

as bipolar or something if if you have those records, the medical records, those that could be evidence. If you entered into the marriage with a prenuptial agreement, you know that entering into the marriage with with a prenuptial agreement itself is highly problematic. It seems like you are likely excluding the indissolubility of marriage because you're planning for an eventual divorce. So that prenuptial agreement could be a document that you submit to the tribunal as part of the proof. But most often proof is going to be witnesses.

So when you're looking for an annulment you need to be asking yourself who could be a witness for me? Witnesses the best witnesses tend to be people who really know you and your former spouse and

know why you wanted to get married and problems within the marriage, all that kind of information. People who work best as witnesses are parents, siblings, close friends, people that you have shared intimate details about your life with. So it's it's necessary to kind of bring these elements forward ⁓ with you when you petition the

Joey (17:23)

church.

Okay. So then you petition the church and and then from there and I I know we're kind of maybe speaking more to the parents at this point or maybe someone who would go through, but I think it's helpful for all the children who are listening to this knowing like, okay, this is what mom or dad would go through if they did go through this route. My mom and dad are actually going through this process right now for for context for everyone. And so then after that, yeah, I'm curious what happens next at a high level. Yes.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (17:45)

Well,

you submit a petition to the tribunal. The tribunal would then look at everything and accept the case if it seems like it has merit to it. So you would probably submit written statements, kind of the story of your marriage in writing, kind of a narrative of that. The tribunal may wish to also interview you, but to ask other questions, to elicit information. They will always reach out to your ex, so and there's a reason for this. ⁓ this is a marriage between the two of you.

You know, if you're arguing that the marriage was invalid, your ex at least has the right to be informed of this, if not to fully participate and and tell his side of the story or her side of the story. So we always need a a good address to send paperwork to your ex. Now they don't have to agree or be cooperative at all. There's a lot of fear sometimes that once I submit all of this, can my ex just derail the process or

Or make it so that I don't get my declaration of nullity? And the answer there is no, they can't really do anything to stop the process, but they can participate in the process. And we always want to hear both sides of the story. If we're only hearing from one party, we understand that we're hearing kind of a lopsided story at that point. So it's always, always beneficial to hear two sides of the story. So w we will always reach out to the ex and elicit their participation. Again, it it really varies.

Sometimes they never respond to us, sometimes they call and yell at us for hours, you know. Sometimes they throw it in the trash. Sometimes they want to be very involved and name their own witnesses and provide their own testimony. So the options are open.

Joey (19:23)

Yeah. Yeah, no, I bet you see a lot and I'm excited to keep going through this. But I'm curious, some young people have told me that maybe there's been times where especially I'm thinking of a situation where

The I think it was a daughter, you know, young adult who was a devout Catholic. The parents I think weren't so much, but there was some reason they still wanted to seek the annulment. And if I remember right, she was kind of concerned that they were going about it for the wrong reasons. And so I know it's a big question, but I'm curious like what's maybe the proper like attitude or approach when it comes to seeking an annulment so that we don't again fall into the secular mindset of like, this is kind of my escape hatch. So you just found out that your parents are getting divorced, or maybe the pain from their sponsor.

Has started to resurface. Either way, you feel alone and you might even be experiencing emotional problems like anxiety, falling into habits that you're not proud of just to numb the pain, and struggling in or feeling afraid of romantic relationships. I've been there, I totally get it. But worst of all, perhaps you fear that one day you might repeat your parents' story. If you can relate, I wrote a free digital guide for you. It's called Seven Ways to Work Through the Pain of Your Parents' Divorce. Inside, I share practical steps that you can take.

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Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (21:00)

Right, right. And unfortunately many Catholics approach it like that. Like, well, this is just the thing I need to do so that I can get remarried in the church. But the best mindset to approach this with is discernment of, you know, I don't know for sure, but I think my marriage is invalid. Here's my argument, and I'm submitting to the judgment of the church. I really want to hear what the church has to say about my marriage, because that will determine what's possible for me. So many people come to the tribunal with a second marriage already planned.

Or many times it's already happened civilly, and now they want to just get married in the church. Or they already have someone, a fiance in the wings, and they want to get married, you know, as soon as possible. You know, and that's just the reality, that people approach the tribunal. But again, the best mentality though would be to approach the tribunal even before you have someone in mind. Really it should be, can I even be allowed to date? Because right now I'm married, right?

I'm separated and divorced from my spouse, but I'm still still married to that person. I still have to be faithful to that person. Sex outside of marriage is still a mortal sin. So in discerning how God might be calling you to move forward in your life, part of that discernment is the annulment process. Submit to the judgment of the church, you know, put forward your best argument, put forward your best evidence, but then just wait to hear back from the church whether they declare your marriage invalid or not.

If if they declare your marriage invalid, that means you were never really married and now you would be free to marry. Or you were never really married and now you would be free to join the seminary or join religious life. Whereas if they say no, if they give a negative decision and and the church says we can't declare your marriage invalid

Well then that determines what's possible for me in my life moving forward. If if that's the case, if I'm validly married to my spouse, I just can't live with her or him, you know, we can't be in the same room together without fighting. Well, you need to learn to live that way then. You need to live faithful to your marriage vows. That means, you know, no romantic partners other than your spouse who you're divorced from, you know, no going on dates, no living with someone else. But there's a real path to holiness.

There. You know, you can be like Jesus on the cross, being faithful to the commitment that you've made, even if your spouse is not faithful anymore. And there's beautiful holiness in that.

Joey (23:27)

Heroism even. I remember yeah. It's like it's so heroic to see a spouse who, yeah, maybe their spouse abandoned them and they're staying true to the vow they made because they take that promise so seriously, which I admire the heck out of. Not an easy path. And I know like everything we're talking about, Anthony's so countercultural, so unpopular, such a like punch in the gut. It's like, My goodness, this is like so difficult. But but I think yeah, there's obviously a reason

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (23:39)

Yeah, me too.

Joey (23:54)

Going back like you said, to to what Jesus said. So in the case of that young woman, I think like the answer it sounds like it would be you gave such a good answer, the church has kind of checks in place to make sure that people aren't doing it for the wrong reason. Is that kind of the gist of it? I don't

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (24:08)

Know, it's more of a hope that people would do this for the right reasons. But the reality is the majority of people who come approaching the church for a declaration of nullity are doing so because they are either remarried and want to get remarried in the church or they have a marriage planned. You know, I don't want to criticize anyone for why they approach the tribunal. I just I'm trying to suggest that there's the best way to approach the tribunal, which is in the spirit of discernment of trying to discern how best to move forward in my life and what God might be calling me.

Yeah.

Joey (24:38)

Makes

a lot of sense. I wanna go back to something that we talked about before, which is a really difficult topic, a a hard question to answer, so forgive me. But we have this idea of abuse that we talk about in our culture and we throw that word around a lot. And what I've seen, you know, in in cases of physical or sexual abuse, typically it's like very clear cut. That's what I've observed and on you know.

walking with young adults, for example, who maybe had that in their past when they were at home. When it comes to things like emotional or verbal abuse, it definitely seems to get a little bit trickier. And I've seen kind of two camps. One camp who calls everything abuse. Even any sort of bad behavior counts as abuse, it seems. And then the other end of the spectrum, which is another camp which isn't kind of unwilling to call anything abuse. And obviously I I think neither are helpful until

Where's that line in the middle and kinda what does the church do to decipher these cases of like maybe emotional, verbal or like mental abuse? Yeah.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (25:29)

Certainly

it it calls for discernment. Many times the church is really relying on on the person. You know, the church isn't gonna send out a priest to your house to investigate like what's going on in terms of abuse. It's it's relying on your self reporting and your s your self ⁓ evaluation of that. You know, is this just my husband mouthing off and not treating me kindly? Or is this abuse that I need to separate myself from? Yeah, i i it can be very difficult to kind of discern where you're at.

Because I I would say if it is truly abuse, you I mean,

You're a human being with dignity and you're not you're not expected to just put up with abuse, right? So you can legitimately separate yourself. You don't have to put up with abuse. At the same time, I think your point is well taken that we can't be overly sensitive in calling just anything abuse. Any unkind words or or anything, you know? Because living together that you're you're gonna rub up against each other, you're going to ⁓ irritate one another, there's gonna be short tempers, there's gonna be maybe words spoken in anger.

Right? And this is just normal stuff. You know, this I would say that's not abuse. This is just normal daily living. But if it is constant, if it's berating, if it is really having an effect on you spiritually, emotionally, right? If it's leading to depression, if it's leading to thoughts of self-harm, things like that, I mean that's a different category in my

Joey (26:54)

In my book.

Yeah, totally. And I remember a Catholic psychologist explaining to me there's this idea, like you said, of a personal threshold too, which is where it it's a little difficult to kind of draw a line in the sand as like this is abuse and this is not abuse when it comes to like the emotional, verbal, mental. So definitely tricky, but but that makes sense and that needs to be taken into consideration and account. But yeah, it it's definitely it's a topic I've struggled to kind of wrap my head around and it makes sense that it's a little elusive because it might differ a bit in every situation. But I agree with you and I

I think to be clear to everyone listening, it's like bad behavior needs to be corrected. Boundaries are necessary for a relationship to be healthy, especially when it's a case of, you know, ongoing severe abuse. Like it needs to be sometimes, like you said, a separation might be necessary for the protection of the spouse. And so yeah, so I hope no one's hearing us wrong and saying, like, yeah, just put up with it and you know, deal with it. Like that's not what we're saying. But at the same time we need to be careful that we don't call, you know, everything abuse 'cause I think in one way it does actually a great disservice to people who actually fully

like are being abused. So it's a it's a big topic I'm sure we could get into deeper. But I do wanna maybe go back to the process a little bit further. So I'm just curious, up to this point, we've talked about submitting the petition, we've talked about kind of the church going through ⁓ reviewing that. And then yeah, what kind of ⁓ lead us to the finish line, if you would, of how that all works.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (28:15)

Yeah, so there's some important people in the tribunal we need to talk about. And the first is called the defender of the bond. This is a position within the tribunal where whoever fills that position, whoever is named as defender of the bond, their duty and role is to bring forward anything that can be said for the marriage, that this was in fact a valid marriage. If you think of this in terms of like a court situation, you know, typically you have two different desks, right? You have the like the prosecutor ⁓ and the defense attorney.

This isn't a perfect analogy, but if you think of the defender of the bond as sitting at one of those desks. And it's not the desk that you're sitting at, if you're the one asking for the annulments, right? You're sitting at one of the desks trying to argue with your advocate that what appeared to be a marriage really wasn't a marriage.

And then the opposite argument is coming from the defender of the bond that in fact this was a valid marriage, you know, for X, Y, and Z. So these are the two arguments that are proposed. It's the defender of the bond is arguing for the validity of the marriage, and then the party with their advocate is arguing for the invalidity of the marriage. And then it goes before the judges. So in marriage cases, there have to be three judges. There always has to be a priest involved, and then there can be two lay judges. So in the Archdiocese of Denver, it's Father Giovanni Cappucci as

The judicial vicar, and then we have ⁓ myself and then two other lay judges. So on any given case, three of us, always the priest, and then two lay people, will be on that case to resolve the dispute. And the dispute is: you know, was this a valid marriage or not? So we listen to what the defender of the bond has to say, we listen to what the party and their advocate has to say, and then we have to evaluate all the evidence. And the tribunal has to come to moral certitude. Now

Moral certitude is not absolute certitude, not like scientific certitude, but it's very similar to what you would have in a courtroom, like beyond a reasonable doubt. So we we kind of need to get to that level of beyond a reasonable doubt, that we are sure beyond a reasonable doubt that this marriage was invalid. I said that there's three judges, so it's a vote at the end of the day. ⁓ as long as two judges agree, then

That that holds sway. And so if the two judges, two or three judges determine that the marriage was invalid, then we proclaim that in a a decree or a sentence that ⁓ really lays out the logic and the reasoning and everything behind why we're declaring the marriage invalid.

Or ⁓ on the other hand, if we can't declare the marriage invalid, if there's insufficient evidence, whatever the case may be, then we again issue a decision, but it's a negative decision. It'll again outline all of the different reasons why the tribunal can't declare the marriage invalid. And then we notify the parties and then if anyone's unhappy with that, they can appeal. So there's an appellate level. Any tribunal in the country has an appellate court that they can

Joey (31:11)

And does that immediately go to Rome or is there something else?

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (31:14)

It's one of the options, but it's not necessary. So in Denver, if we ⁓ declare a marriage invalid in Denver, but then say the other spouse is unhappy with that, they can appeal to Philadelphia or to Rome. There's two options there. There's a whole like levels of appeal thing. It starts at the trial level, and then there's an appellate level, and then there's an up an appeal of the appeal. If you ever go to that third level, it has to be Rome.

That second level can be Rome but doesn't have to be.

Joey (31:45)

Makes sense. A few kind of questions about numbers. I'm curious. Denver maybe in particular, or the rest of the country, whatever you think, what's the average number of annulments that maybe are started in a year?

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (31:56)

So that's that's

a difficult thing to answer. Because there's so many different types of annulments. What I've been talking about is what we call the formal case or the ordinary contentious process. But many people have what we call a lack of form. And so the idea here is if you're a Catholic, if you were either baptized Catholic or received into the Catholic Church in a formal way, then you are bound by canon law. And canon law says that if when you get married, you have to get married before a priest or a deacon, essentially. And if you don't do that, then the church doesn't consider.

Your marriage valid at all. That's what we call a lack of form annulment. So if you were baptized Catholic and you ran off and you got married civilly, you know, however, then the church

really just doesn't see your marriage as valid at all. There's a lot of Catholics who fall into this category and so this is called a lack of form. In Denver, I don't really have the numbers off the top of my head, but I think we do a hundred and fifty to two hundred lack of forms every year. Similar, you know, dioceses that are similar size would probably be similar in numbers. And then ⁓ formal cases, we do upwards of two hundred formal cases a year. And then there's all kinds of other things also that we do and other types of cases, but so I mean if I had to just

Rough estimate in Denver, I would say probably upwards of five hundred annulments a year given. That's lackoform, that's documentary cases, that's the ordinary contentious process. And then we can talk about other dissolution cases that are not annulments, it's kind of a different category.

Joey (33:25)

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So okay, that makes sense. So not dozens but hundreds and but not thousands. So somewhere in that category. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. And how long, you know, for a young person maybe who's learning about this whole annulment thing for the first time, they're probably wondering, like, how long will mom and dad be going through this? 'Cause I know on the civil side, I know typically what I see is, you know, it could be months or maybe a year that's typical for a divorce. Two years seems to be long. Three years is kind of insane.

And so so that's kinda we s what we see on the civil side, but I'm curious on the church tribunal side. Like not that not that an annulment is a divorce, but the closest thing I can compare their experience to.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (34:03)

Exactly. ⁓ it depends. If if you're looking at a lack of form annulment, it we're talking weeks. If you're talking about the full ordinary contentious process, I would say at least a year. Canon law says it should be about a year in first instance, that's the trial level. And then if it does get appealed, it should be about another six months there. So that's a year and a half if it gets appealed. To be honest, that's a little optimistic in my opinion these days. Cases just because of the volume and the lack of

workers in the tribunal and whatnot. ⁓ it seems like the ordinary contentious process is taking a year to a year and a half on its own. And then if you appeal that, I mean it c it can be a mess. I've seen cases that are just a train wreck where it takes maybe a year and a half the first time around and then it gets appealed to the appellate court and it takes another maybe year there. And then it gets appealed again to Rome and it in Rome it could take three or four or five years. So

I mean this can get really drug out for years and years and years, which is extremely unfortunate and not an ideal situation.

Joey (35:08)

Yeah, no, I'd agree with that. But okay, that's fascinating. And so thank you for laying everything out so clearly. You're such a good communicator. I'm curious there's so many myths, you know, we've tackled maybe some of them so far when it comes to annulments, but I'm curious yeah, what are some of maybe the most popular misconceptions or myths about annulments?

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (35:26)

I would say there's two that come up all the time. And one is if I'm Catholic and I get a divorce, then I'm excommunicated. So let's talk about that. That's really not the case. If you are a Catholic and you get a divorce, you're not automatically excommunicated. There is this pervading like idea though, that if you're divorced, you're not, I don't know, some people feel marginal.

When they're Catholic and then they get a divorce. And that's in my opinion, that's unfortunate that that continues to be a part of Catholic culture. I don't know what that is, but but no, that's a myth. If if you're Catholic and you get a divorce, you're not automatically excommunicated. What you know could lead to you not being able to receive communion. That's not the same as excommunication, but

you could find yourself in a position where you're not able to receive communion, but that's because you've chosen to get remarried. So if you're a Catholic and you get divorced and then you get remarried, now you're in an in an objectively sinful situation and you would need to resolve that before you can come to communion. So some people kind of think of that as excommunication, although technically speaking it's not excommunication.

Joey (36:33)

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Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (37:36)

So that's one of the big myths that if you're a Catholic and you get divorced, you're excommunicated. The other big one is if you get an annulment, your children become illegitimate. And again, that's just a big myth. It's very clear in canon law that if you were born of a valid or even a putative marriage, a marriage where we weren't sure, we thought it was a valid marriage, but then we looked later after the fact and we determined it was in fact invalid from the very beginning. That's what a putative marriage is.

So if you're born to a putative marriage, you're legitimate in canon law. You could be illegitimate if your parents just weren't married at all and got married or just had you outside of marriage. Then according to canon law, you would be illegitimate. Now, that doesn't really have any bearing anymore. It used to. In the 1917 code, there was an impediment to holy orders. If you were an illegitimate child, that was an impediment to holy orders. So you couldn't become a

Priest, let's say, if you were an illegitimate child. But that was under the nineteen seventeen code and that has now been changed. So even though you can be illegitimate under canon law, there's really no effects anymore. It doesn't really ⁓ matter in any practical sense. So people get all worried about, you know, my children will be illegitimate. Well, no, they won't. If it's just a declaration of nullity, that's not gonna render your children illegitimate.

Joey (39:01)

No, that's helpful to hear, especially to the ⁓ young people listening right now. It's ⁓ yeah, and it says nothing. I remember when we were working on the Impermoter, which for anyone listening, it's like the approval of the church for my book. We talked about this quite a bit and you were so helpful. Thank you again. And and I think I remember you encouraging me saying it's very important that we emphasize that it has

Like you said, no practical consequence, but more importantly, it it says nothing about the dignity of the person, their value, their worth. Exactly. If they have this title of like illegitimacy, which in my opinion, and this is what we ended up communicating through the book, it's like it says way more about your parents than it does about you as a child. What what would you add to that to maybe a young person who's kinda like wrestling with this? Like, I don't want to be illegitimate, that sounds bad.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (39:45)

Just exactly what you said. Like it it just doesn't really ⁓ matter much. I mean, I don't know. It it does. It speaks more to what your parents were doing at the time that you were conceived than says anything about you. It it says nothing about you, it says nothing about your quality as a human being, it says nothing about your dignity as a human being. It's essentially meaningless.

Joey (40:05)

I agree. No, it's helpful to hear. And ⁓ it is a scary term though when you hear it, you're like, gosh, I'm illegitimate what the heck. So okay. That that's helpful. And I'm I'm curious, one question that's kind of come up from parents I've talked to and young people too, is like I've heard this and you correct me if this is wrong, that in order to seek an annulment, it's required that you have a civil divorce. Is that true, first of all? And if so, why is that?

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (40:32)

Yeah, that's not technically true. In canon law it says for a tribunal to accept a case, there has to be some assurance that there's no hope of reconciliation. Okay, so the tribunal needs to judge that this isn't just a couple that's having marital difficulties, but that they've gotten to the end of the road and that there's really no hope of restoring a a good married life.

And so how do you judge that? As the tribunal, how do we judge that? What we've done just as a very practical step is we've said a divorce is that signal to us that if they've gotten a civil divorce, that means that this relationship is irretrievably broken. Okay. That there's really no hope of reconciliation.

If there's no divorce, then I think we we have hope, right? If they're just separated and they're maybe trying to work it out, well let's keep keep that up. Let's keep trying to work it out. Let's keep going to marriage counseling. Let's keep doing the work we need to do to see if we can bring this back together and effect some sort of a reconciliation here. So we use civil divorce just as a very practical measuring stick. If you've gotten a divorce, then for the tribunal we say that there's no hope of reconciliation. If there hasn't been that divorce yet, then we're

Joey (41:48)

Okay. I see. So it's not all it's not a requirement per se, but it you you need some sort of measuring stick to say there's no hope. Yep. Which is a tricky man, what a conundrum because like we believe deeply in hope. Like we believe in redemption. Like I've heard so many stories of marriages that were in like horrible cases and horrible situations and over a lot of time. Like I think that's the important thing to emphasize. It's like this did not happen overnight. they found a lot of h help and healing and they were able to slowly rebuild and bring

the marriage and the family back together. But in some cases there was abuse, there was infidelity, there were like long periods of separation. And then over time, you know, through God's grace especially, they were able to come back together, which is so beautiful. So man, what a tricky thing to do is say like, that's at the end of the road. Whereas no, we believe we're very hopeful people.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (42:36)

Yep, yep. And I've even seen a case where they got divorced and then they got their annulments and then years later they got back together and got remarried.

Joey (42:45)

So wow. Okay. Yeah, who knows? Yeah. But it's beautiful. And I think there's something, ⁓ obviously, you know, looking again through the lens of the children like we're talking here, there can be deep wounds through that whole process itself. Yeah. But there is something I think beautiful that you can take away when that happens that wow, even though there were hard times, like they my mom and dad endured and they were able to make it work. Not that that's applicable in every situation, because I know personally now there's families I'm walking with who

are truly in situations where it would be bad. It would be dangerous and not good for mom and dad to be together, unfortunately. Yeah. And so so anyway, so I know it it runs the gamut, but but that's that's helpful there.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (43:24)

Th we gotta bring the kids into this equation too. Sometimes mom and dad's relationship is so toxic to the children that it's it's not fair for the children to be living in this emotion.

Joey (43:34)

Yeah, no, totally. And I I think that's where the secular research is really interesting where and I've talked about this a lot in the show, so I won't dive w go into a ton, but the quick version is that like in cases of high conflict, there is like a very like children seem to do better when there is some sort of protection via a separation. ⁓ again, as that protective measure. And as a church, we would always say the goal

is to heal the marriage, bring the family back together. And I think, you know, you and I I'm sure would agree on this. Like we've been too infiltrated, maybe that's the wrong word. We've been too influenced is a better word, by the culture to think that there's no hope. And yeah, even when there's maybe struggles, like maybe it's better just throw the towel in where it's like, no, this is you know, in absent extreme cases

Marriage has a lot of ups and downs. Like I've you know, experienced some of them myself and it's like, no, you need to be prepared for those hard times and love each other through them and get the help that you need. So so yeah, it's it's a tough thing to hold in b balance, isn't it?

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (44:35)

And going back to your

your earlier question about is a divorce necessary. If if we didn't h hold that standard and we just said anyone who has any questions about their marriage, they can come and submit a case to us. That would not be good because you would have these marriages where people are struggling and maybe they're thinking in their minds, is this even a valid marriage? Like maybe it's not a valid marriage. If there is an immediate path to the church to get that resolved, I what I'm saying is that's maybe not what they need. They need to not have that path available right now. They need to be forced to really try to

reconcile without resolving the question of was this a valid marriage or not?

Joey (45:11)

I agree, especially in the cases where there's children involved, like women talking and you know, hopefully even without that, that would still be true. But especially at least from, you know, my perspective, that just does so much harm and damage to the children. So yeah, and and you know, high conflict situations do harm to the children and low conflict situations where mom and dad just decide to part because you know, whatever the reason they might give, that they do

so much damage the children. So one question on that note of like the divorce, so was there a change in canon law or the church, ⁓ in America in particular after the introduction of no fault divorce? And to anyone listening who doesn't know what that means, in the past there was ⁓ I think it was in California it was passed in what, nineteen sixty nine or around seventy, this idea of like no fault divorce where you didn't have to prove wrongdoing and you have to correct me if I'm wrong here at all, in order to get a divorce.

Yeah. th there needed to be some sort of proof of like adultery or abuse or addiction or some sort of you know, misbehavior in order to get a divorce. The introduction of no fault divorce, which ironically happened under Ronald Reagan in California, eventually overtook the entire country, every state adopted it, and now we're in a state where either spouse, no matter the reason, can file for a divorce. And so I'm curious, feel free to correct any of that if it's wrong. And then second thing is did the church change anything in America at least after

the introduction of no fault divorce because it would it would make sense based on what you're saying that that's actually a pretty good measuring stick to like let them hopefully heal the marriage and if there's truly no recourse then the civil court has a way to kind of vet that and then we can maybe trust that a little bit more. So I'm just curious if anything changed after no fault divorce became more popular. If you come from a divorce or broken family or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book.

free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restored ministry.com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (47:18)

You know, there's a long complicated history here. I mean it it starts back in the Roman Empire, when there was essentially no fault divorce in the Roman Empire. You you didn't have to have any cause or reason for divorce. So that's what the church was a initially kind of born into, is that sort of no fault divorce environment. But then because of historical circumstances, ⁓ you know, divorce became very rare and regulated by the church. You know, separations

you know, the church did separations for a very long time. Where, you know, if you're having troubles, if you're in an abusive situation and you feel like you need to separate, you wouldn't have gone to the civil courts, you would have come to the church. And the church would have worked out the terms of that separation. You know, i the church would never call it a divorce because that's it's not what the church is doing. It's not dissolving that bond of marriage. It's sim simply separating the the parties for a while

Hopefully they can work it out, right? So for a while the church was kind of doing that. And there became a some tension between the civil civil society and the church and whose jurisdiction is marriage? Right? This was historically a big question and the church declared very firmly that marriage is the church's area, right? Civil courts get out of it, like marriage is our our territory. That was the church's position, you know, for a very long time, but the civil courts have fought back and

you know, the civil courts have ⁓ taken over some jurisdiction on marriage and and divorce themselves. And so there was a bit of a fight. And so this was late eighteen hundreds in the United States there was a plenary council of Baltimore. You may have heard of like the Baltimore Catechism, have you ever

Yeah. The Baltimore Catechism came out of this council of Baltimore. Where back in the eighteen hundreds, late eighteen hundreds, all the bishops in the US gathered for this council and you know, they did several things, one of which was produced as the Baltimore Catechism. Another thing that they did is they made some legislation along merit for marriage. And they said if you're a Catholic and you get divorced and then you get remarried, you're excommunicated. So there wa this is kinda where this idea comes from and that's still pres present today.

Of if you're Catholic and you get divorced, you're excommunicated. But it was connected to divorce and remarriage, then there was an excommunication. Catholics who simply went and approached the civil courts for divorce, they made that a crime and said that the bishop can impose penalties. So the idea was in the late 1800s in the US that the Catholic Church was trying to get Catholics to come to the church rather than to the civil courts for a divorce. But unfortunately, they didn't have much success in that.

And I think bishops learned that they didn't really like adjudicating these separation cases. And over time they were happy to to let the civil courts do that. There's some practical reasons for that. The Catholic Church doesn't have an enforcement mechanism, right? If if you're married to an abusive alcoholic guy who keeps coming around and abusing you and the children, you know, the Catholic Church could make a decree maybe and say you're not allowed to come to the house. But how would she enforce that? Right?

Whereas if you go to the civil court and they p give a restraining order, I mean now this has teeth and you can now call the police and you so there's a an enforcement mechanism. You know, if you're trying to separate finances, the church could decree how that should be done, but the church has no authority to to do anything. Whereas the civil courts do, the civil courts can make orders that, you know, banks have to follow and whatnot and separation of of assets. So the civil authorities have, you know,

Teeth in a s in a way that the church doesn't. And so even today, if a Catholic wanted to come to the church for a separation, I think most bishops would say no because it's sort of meaningless. Like, go to the civil courts. They're they're set up for this. They they can effectuate a separation with legal effects that have

It has teeth to it, right? Yeah, an enforcement mechanism. If the church were to do a separation, we would have to instruct them to go to the civil courts and then reproduce all of this, you know, so that it could have civil effects. And so because of that, just over time the church has kind of gotten out of that business of ⁓ doing separation cases.

Joey (51:35)

Okay. So it sounds like t so maybe let me go back. So it sounds like the introduction of No Fault Divorce didn't really change much in the church in America. Is is that

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (51:48)

It probably accelerated

the trend that was already happening of Catholics approaching the civil authorities for divorce.

Joey (51:56)

Okay. Got it. Okay. It's but it's not like any updates are made to canon law or anything like that. Okay. Got it, got it. Okay. No, that makes sense. You brought up this idea of like the church overseeing a separation. I somewhat recently heard of this idea of canonical separation and I I really haven't heard anyone talk about it much at all. What what is a canonical separation and like how does that work briefly? I I know it's probably a big topic we can get into. Yeah.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (52:19)

I

mean it it's basically just what I was talking about, where parties who can't live together for whatever reason would come to the church, to the bishop, for ⁓ a separation rather than going to the civil courts for a divorce or a separation. Again, bishops in my opinion don't really like doing this ⁓ and I think they see that it's it needs to be reproduced by the civil courts if it's gonna have any effect. So even though it's still on the books, you can still apply for a ecclesiastical separation.

Joey (52:47)

Yeah.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (52:49)

But in my experience most bishops will simply direct people to the civil court.

Joey (52:54)

Okay. I I heard of it in a case where ⁓ it was like from what I remember a very devout Catholic family and they were really struggling to figure out what to do given the struggles within the marriage. And they, you know, saw both paths ahead of them as like continuing to work through things or get a divorce as like not great options and they heard of this option and so they pursued that. And so I think that was ⁓ you know, a little bit of backstory 'cause they wanted the wisdom of the church

to help them know whether they should pursue this any further or not. So is there some sort of guidance you can get through that process or is that pretty much the bishop will say, kinda hands off?

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (53:33)

It depends on the individual bishop I would say. But I would argue that there is a legitimate space for ecclesiastical separations. Maybe a case like you were just describing. Where it's more the couple maybe wants to submit to the church to discern are there r causes for separation? Because the church doesn't have a a no fault separation system. You you have to find fault. There has to either be adultery or abuse or

you know, unhealthy living circumstances for spouses or children or you know, something like that. Whereas the civil courts they don't really care. As long as one person's asking for it, you know, they'll give the separation or the divorce. So I could imagine a situation where faithful Catholics want to submit their will to the church in discernment of are there even reasons for separation here.

Joey (54:23)

Yeah. So it'll depend on the bishop. That's that's good to know. Thank you for clarifying that. Toward the end of our time I had a few final questions. So one, there's been some people, again, oftentimes these are like young people who are maybe in their twenties or thirties who are like devout Catholics and they just have maybe some concerns about what their parents are going through who have conveyed to me that

There's concern about like the annulment process overall in America. And without going too deep into this, I don't that's not the purpose of this podcast. I apparently there's been maybe insiders at various tribunals, not Denver, to be clear, who have said that maybe certain dioceses in America have like a hundred percent approval rating for like annulments where it's they'll kind of find a way to rush it through. So obviously that's a huge topic to get into. I'm curious, like, what's your take on this? Like, is this happening? And if you can't say, that's okay. But I'm curious.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (55:13)

I think it happens in some places. I don't know how common it is, but certainly there's that impression that in the United States there are many tribunals that make it very easy to get a declaration of nullity. I I guess I would contextualize this within kind of the framework that we've been talking about, going all the way back to Jesus and his comments about, you know, Moses allowed divorce for the hardness of your hearts, or because of the hardness of your hearts. And I sometimes wonder, do we grant so many annulments in the church because of

Of the hardness of people's hearts. Is this a some way a concession for human sinfulness?

Yeah, and I I I don't know. But the annulment process is not just ministry to say divorced people, you know, people who who have been divorced. This is a a ministry of truth. And w we need to keep that in our focus, I think. You know, Jesus says the truth will set you free. There's there's freedom in the truth, right? So you submit yourself to the church to her judgment for that true judgment, not just because this is what I want, you know, give it to me.

But there's great value in in seeking the truth and being open then to to either way. It it might not end in my favor, it might be contrary to what I want, but it's true or it's more true, right?

Joey (56:30)

That makes a lot of sense and I like

That seems to be, like you said before too, the the right attitude. And I think there's been some I've heard some say that there's been too much of a trend, at least in America, toward looking at annulment as like you said, anything but a seeking of the truth, where it's maybe seen as some sort of like therapeutic healing modality almost where that's not really what it was intended. It maybe can have that effect on at the end of the process, but but that's not the primary purpose and that's not something that we should really

I've had

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (57:03)

I've heard so

many people say, you know, go through the annulment process 'cause it's healing, right? And I don't want to discount anyone's experience. Some people

Joey (57:10)

Sure,

sure.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (57:11)

really do have experiences of healing and and growth and understanding through the annulment process. But other people just don't. It's just it's kinda like the divorce again. And it's they don't maybe find healing, they find a judicial process that's maybe kind of cold and inf formal and you know, at the end of the day they get this judicial decision. And so s some people walk away this this wasn't healing at all. This was just like a legal process in the church.

You know, i if I'm looking for healing, I don't go to the judge, I go to a therapist. Right. So a lot of different a lot of different feedback and opinions on on what this process is.

Joey (57:48)

Like Yeah, no, and that makes sense. And I could totally see like how, you know, knowing people who've been through this, there could be a dishealing aspect. So I don't want to discount that, especially if there's some sort of like closure. Either way, especially like I've known of cases where, you know

maybe it was denied, like the declaration of nullity. So it's like, nope, your marriage is valid and then at least like there's it can be healing in the a aspect like you said before, where it's like, okay, I have clarity of how I need to live my life now. So so I could totally see that. But I think, you know, therapizing in the sense of like, you know, once you get your annulment like approved, you get the declaration of nullity, then you can move on and heal. And, you know, that's I think a a false dichotomy. So

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (58:25)

Yeah.

Prefer to flip that. You know, you go through a divorce, that's traumatic. Like you need to go through some healing there. You you may need some therapy, some counseling. You may just need some time to heal yourself, to heal your heart, whatever. Go through that healing process first. And then if you feel that God is calling you to a new marriage, then start looking at the annulment process. I think we get it so backward sometimes. We come out of this messy divorce, this traumatic and painful, and instead of really looking for healing.

And then it's from that relationship into marriage and then you know. We never ask the question about healing. We need to.

Joey (59:07)

No, absolutely. That's so good. Well gosh, I could talk with you forever and I know we didn't even get into kind of what makes a marriage valid. Maybe let's it can you give us like the quick version of that before we hop off here? Not necessarily a quick answer and then w we can maybe ⁓ let people know where they can go to learn more 'cause there's obviously way more if people are interested where they can

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (59:29)

Yeah, exactly. High overview. There's impediments. There's a whole bunch of legal impediments. So if you're impeded, then your marriage would be invalid. ⁓ most people though, they're not impediments that they're worried about. The other big category is consent. So defects of consent. This w runs a whole gamut from like psychological issues through you know what you intended for marriage. If if you like excluded children or you excluded fidelity or you excluded indissolubility.

You know, these would all be issues with consent to to issues of freedom. You know, if you were if you got pregnant and then your dad gets the shotgun out and says you have to get married, you know, that's a a defect of freedom. So there's a big gamut there.

Joey (1:00:12)

Okay. So basically the three kind of high level reasons are lack of form, like you covered before.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (1:00:18)

Lack of form, impediments, and then defects of consent, which is a broad spectrum.

Joey (1:00:23)

Yeah, okay. There's a lot there. Okay. Sounds good. And I think what we'll do is the the chapter in my book that covers this gives a good overview of those kind of more detailed questions if you guys wanna learn more about that. So we'll make that available. You guys can read that for free. So click the link in the show notes if you wanna get that and they'll again walk you through what makes a marriage invalid and what makes it valid if if you guys want more info on that. So Anthony, any final comments on that before we

A couple of final quick questions. maybe with the question being any other resources you would recommend if people want to learn more? A good resource

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (1:00:56)

The

resource that I've found for kind of an overview of annulments is called When Is Marriage Null. This is by Paolo Bianchi. I think you can find it on Amazon. I found that to be a very helpful.

Joey (1:01:09)

resource. Okay, we'll link to that in the show notes. And would you say that would be helpful for the children too, or is it more geared towards the more

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (1:01:15)

Geared towards someone looking for the anulment.

Joey (1:01:17)

Got yet. Whereas my chapter might be more geared to if you're a young person and you're kind of wondering like what your parents are going through and what this might look like, that might be a good option. So that's good. We have one for both. Yeah, I guess let's just close it down now. Thank you so much for being here. ⁓ I've learned a lot and I am gonna have to re-listen to this too, because it's just there's so much density to it, and you're such an expert. So I appreciate how well you communicated and these are not easy things to talk about too. And yeah, just I wanna iterate again to any

you know, parents listening up to this point that ⁓ you know, we obviously both have a heart for suffering, for people going through difficult times. And, you know, I think you can you can do that, have that heart, have that love while also holding to the truth that we see as ⁓ you know, coming straight from God. So definitely a a big deal. So so yeah, I guess ⁓ thank you. And I want to give you the final word, Anthony. So what final encouragement or advice would you offer to everyone listening, maybe especially to that young person who

Yeah, maybe is a little bit jarred or confused, feeling like maybe they're going through a second divorce with mom or dad doing this annulment process.

Anthony St. Louis-Sanchez (1:02:21)

Well, Joey, thank you so much for having me on. It's really been a pleasure and I love talking about these things. My final final advice would be cling to Christ, you know, cling to Jesus. He knows very well suffering. And so when we suffer in our own lives, we we just need to cling to Jesus to to find that comfort. Even in the suffering of a divorce, right? Jesus is the one who really knows what it's like to commit yourself to someone, to the human race, and then to have them absolutely turn their back on you.

So I think Jesus is our companion in this journey.

Joey (1:02:58)

That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And in closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

If God Loves Me, Why Did He Allow This Pain? | Dr. Daniel Meola: #178

Pending! Stay tuned.

When your parents’ divorce or separation hurts deeply, it can raise painful questions about God: Where was He when my family fell apart? Why didn’t He stop it? And if faith matters so much, why didn’t it save my family?

In this episode, Joey talks with Dr. Daniel Meola, co-founder of Life-Giving Wounds, about suffering, anger, grief, spiritual bypassing, and the struggle many adult children of divorce face in their relationship with God.

They discuss:

• Why divorce can feel like abandonment by God

• What to do when faith was used to minimize your pain

• Why anger and grief aren’t signs of weak faith

• How to avoid getting stuck in victimhood or spiritual bypassing

• Why acknowledging your pain may be the first step toward healing

• How God can transform wounds into strength, love, and purpose

If you’re an adult child of divorce or separation who has ever asked, “God, where were You when my family fell apart?” this episode is for you.

Learn more about Life-Giving Wounds

Get the book Life-Giving Wounds: A Catholic Guide to Healing for Adult Children of Divorce or Separation

Get Joey’s free guide, 7 Ways to Work Through the Pain of Your Parents’ Divorce

Get Joey’s book, It’s Not Your Fault

Get the Book: Searching for and Maintaining Peace: A Small Treatise on Peace of Heart

Get the Book: Interior Freedom

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:00)

Doctor Mayola, good to have you back.

Dan Meola (00:01)

Great to be here, Joey. Thanks for all your great work I restore.

Joey (00:04)

Yeah, right back at you. And I I think this is the third time you've been on, which may be the most anyone's been on the show. So it's great to have to have you.

Dan Meola (00:10)

man. All

the pressure of a repeat guest. Hopefully I won't repeat myself, but you can edit it out if I do.

Joey (00:18)

It's

okay. It's okay. We need to be reminded more than we need to be taught. So I think it's ⁓ it's really good. So you've obviously worked extensively with adult children of divorce, and one of the things I know you know so well is that there's often a lot of struggle when it comes to faith, relationship with God. And so I'm curious, based on, you know, all your experience, what are some of the most common struggles that adult children of divorce face in their spiritual life?

Dan Meola (00:43)

Yeah, I mean, there's so many different ways to approach this question. And just yeah, thank you because yeah, I think, you know, for me, I'm a Catholic, a Christian, you know, I consider faith kind of the deepest level of healing. You know, we need good psychological formation, we need good human formation, but you know, we need faith, but so many of us struggle, struggle deeply. And and some of those struggles or maybe the lion's share of those struggles are from the wounds of our parents growing up. And maybe to introduce this topic

Maybe I'll start with a story that just kind of came to mind. ⁓ I remember me and this woman, we run retreats who came in a retreat in Denver and we're doing a one-on-one kind of walking in the foothills of the Rockies. I guess they're not foothills, the mountains of the Rockies. And she just had a ton of anger. And she chiefly was like, I don't know why I'm talking to you. My parents both were believing Christians, went to mass, they were Catholics. Every Sunday

And what difference did the faith make? Their marriage didn't have major problems, and yet they still got divorced. I don't see the point in the faith, and I just find that so hypocritical. Me and all my siblings have fallen away from the Catholic faith. She, this woman, is dabbling in a bunch of different faiths. And she's like, I just don't I don't see the point. Like what difference did the faith make? And I just kind of sighed and I said, Yeah, you know, sometimes when our parents

divorce and separate, it can feel not just like a rejection and abandonment from them, but God too. Like where where are you, God? Especially in the supposedly lives of these two faithful believers. And so I think a lot of us can struggle with feeling abandonment by God. For different reasons. For her, it was what she thought was the hypocrisy of her parents. But also just this question, yeah, what difference does did the faith make? I didn't see it.

Growing up, so sometimes it's just like they just didn't see people dis just didn't experience the difference that faith make or it was a negative thing, you know. Sometimes the faith was used against us. I hear this a lot too. Sometimes the minimize our pain. I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of spiritual bypassing. Do do you know

Joey (02:59)

Yeah, a little bit, but please explain, yeah.

Dan Meola (03:01)

Yeah, it's basically when somebody uses the truths of the faith to bypass your pain. So, you know, Joey, you're be like talking about your parents' divorce and somebody would just say, you know what, you just need to offer it up. Well remember the resurrection, right? And you just feel so minimized and so invisible in the name of the faith. So that that's very common. So again, there can be different reasons for feeling abandoned by God.

But I think a lot of it has to do with being abandoned by the church or Christians and and sometimes even our parents ⁓ and how they approach the faith. And when I shared that with Jess, just acknowledging her feelings of abandonment, she felt for the first time really seen. Really seen. And she just started weeping. And she's like, I wanna believe. I just I don't know where to start. And I think a lot of us too, for whatever reason, if you've fallen away from the faith or have difficulties of faith.

There is still this curiosity, the faith, and there's kind of this like push and pull. And so Jess kind of represents all of us if we're being honest, based on our wounds, the questions we might have. It's kind of this, I want to draw close, but I just don't know how. I didn't see it modeled. I don't know how. So that that can play a factor into it as well. And you know, there's a lot of different remedies, but those are the type of things that I hear very frequently. Yeah, this abandonment.

hypocrisy, what difference did the faith make? There's questions, you know, there's a lot of familial language in scripture, right? Wasn't mean to call God father, my father left me. Wasn't mean to describe that God's like a mother, my mother didn't care for me. So there can be challenges with that. ⁓ church communities and then also the big the big one. What is the meaning with the suffering? Right? I I think that every question of suffering is a question directed at God.

God, where were you? Where were you? I think that's valid. I think that's important. It's important to name that, to ask that question. Where were you, God? So all these different things and and again there, you know, I think in our book we listed like seven or eight, a few of them I'm not even discussing here, cause a lot of difficulties in one's relationship with God. Like even I was talking recently to somebody in our programs, like even the experience of like silence, which as you know is so important for prayer.

can feel very alienating if silence was a negative experience growing up. So like like just like even the building br blocks of ⁓ prayer can feel very threatening and unsafe. So I mean there there's all these different reasons why people may struggle with

Joey (05:38)

That makes so much sense. And it sounds like it's kind of this tangled mess that in order to remedy we need to kind of untangle. And I think w the thing you're doing now, which like putting language to it, is really h helpful as like a starting point. For some reason, for a while I kinda overestimated how important that was. I didn't th or sorry, I underestimated how important that was. I didn't think it was that important, but I think it is really key. And one of the things I wanna highlight that you said is like the hypocrisy piece. I definitely have heard from you know a lot of people and experience with some myself where you have ⁓

You know, parents like you said, who maybe go to church on Sunday and at church they act as angels and then afterward something else. And and we're all capable of that. I'm not pointing fingers at parents alone. But ⁓ but it there's this I remember hearing there's this like saying in German where it's like it goes like ⁓ angel like on the street, demon at home. And so I think like yeah, like you I remember without divulging too much, just conversations even within my family of like if you're not gonna change your behavior.

You know, why go to church? So I think there's some aspect of that too. So yeah, but maybe let's speak to that to someone who's like feeling that. It's like, Yeah, my parents were super hypocritical and because of that, I want nothing to do with faith or God. ⁓ what would you say to someone who maybe feels that way?

Dan Meola (06:51)

One just acknowledge the pain, just how hurtful that is. Yeah. To be treated poorly by somebody who professes a religion that should be one of love, that is one of love. So just one acknowledge the hurt, the pain, and then the confusion. Like it also introduces this confusion about what is really Christianity, right? And and so first just naming that utter and horrible pain and hurt that can be

that can happen in the name of religion and how confusing and unsettling that is. So I I always kinda wanna start there and and you know, if it was somebody calling on the show, just listen to their story in and to grief and to understand where they're coming from. And then yeah, I mean from there to offer them like yeah, I mean the church is full of sinners to acknowledge that like Christ came to heal sinners. And so there's there's a lot of sin in the church.

There's a lot of sin in the church. So also to acknowledge that. But to gently ⁓ introduce them to a more integrated way of the faith, right? Like Christ does call us to incarnate these teachings in our personal lives, right? Like the reason that was so hurtful is like that was sinful. Like what like no no bones and questions asked about it. Like calling evil for what evil is. Even though, you know, also the church teaches, and we have to be careful here, like

We distinguish between the person and his or her acts. You know, like it's important to remember even our parents who have greatly offended and hurt us, like they always retain a dignity in their personhood. But their acts, like we can call those acts evil, sinful, hurtful, unhealthy, you know, w we can name it. So naming that the that truth can set you free. Like that that was a perversion of Christianity and what the teaching was. I'm sorry about that. So naming that, naming that evil. So understanding their story, naming that as an evil.

And to say like, yeah, Christianity is called to be lived. It is called to be practiced in the home in the bedroom, you know? Like unlike the liberal society, right, is always saying, like, well, keep faith out of the bedroom. Well, here's a great example of like, well, what happens when it's not in the bedroom or the home? There's a ton of pain, right? And and so Christianity does teach this integration and kind of so you kind of just sitting with them in that truth and what that means.

What that might mean for their life if they're open to recovering a more integrated way of Christianity that doesn't separate the home life from the public life. That's good. I'd begin there, but every person's different in how to integrate it in what questions are coming up in their heart. I'd begin there. How would you begin?

Joey (09:34)

No, no, that's great. What one thing that comes to mind too is I've heard some people use the analogy of like if you think of, you know, there's been a lot of scandals and abuses when it comes to like school teachers, right? So some some school teachers have done horrible things. Like they don't really live up to the ideal that we think of that we want a school teacher to live up to, someone who guides children, who forms them, who educates them. And so it's little bit more of an intellectual argument, but I think it's important to understand that you wouldn't

then say, well, all teachers are like this bad teacher. All teachers like this teacher who misbehaved. Another analogy you could think of is or you can say is like, imagine you have someone in the Marine Corps who is in at you know, away at war in a foreign country and they do horrible things. They murder, they rape, they do things that like we do not approve of. And that doesn't actually live up to the ideal of like the our Marine Corps, right? We wouldn't then say, well, therefore all Marines are the same and

We should like look down on them. So I understand like I I don't want to skip over the emotional kind of hurt part, but I thought you handled that really well. But I think there's something to be said for that. It's like actually the problem that you have with maybe Christians or Catholics is that your parents actually didn't live up to what they were supposed to live up to. Right. And not saying that in a demeaning or judgmental way, but just in kind of matter-of-factly way, it's like that you've actually experienced something that's less than the ideal. And so with that in mind, I think the other thing I would throw out would be something like.

What if we look to the people who actually lived it out most perfectly? And so for us as Catholics, obviously that's like the Saints. Like, okay, maybe maybe there's a little bit of a contrast there and you can get to know what their lives would be like. But what would you add?

Dan Meola (11:07)

Yeah, no, th that's a great point. And and to find a community ideally that is living it out within the church. Like there there's always pockets of people, even now, not just the saints, sometimes the saints can seem far away in a different generation, but like right now that that are living this out differently in their marriages, in their home, in their church communities. And yeah, to give church ⁓ another chance to be that that home, that place of sanctuary, that it should be spilled out into private life. You know, that

That's a really great point. And and that's also too why, you know, when she approached me, this this woman Jess, about, okay, what do I do? felt this hypocrisy, y you know, I said two things just to start. One, I encourage her to meditate on Christ's passion, just to acknowledge her pain again that Christ too felt abandonment. I didn't say it in that words, I said just, you know, meditate on Christ's passion, see what the Lord speaks to you, is particularly at the moment of ⁓ where he says, My God, my God.

Why have you abandoned me? Because I I think it's really beautiful that moment where Christ feels abandonment in his human nature by God the Father, but a radical prayer. He's always in relationship to God, right? That was the depth of his feelings, his human nature, but his divine nature always knew God loved him, right? There was no doubt. So it's a beautiful moment to to pray about if you're feeling abandoned by God. And then second I said to return to the sacraments and seek out people.

In the church community that you do admire that you think is living this well and get to know them, have a meal with them, go you know, experience their home if you have doubts, right? I i if it's a safe and prudent, you know, after forming a relationship kind of deal. ⁓ and she did that. And that that really that changed her life. She first got to experience that on a retreat. She said I f I felt for the first time I had a place to belong when I was with a lot of peers, and that's another good place to start with peers who have similar wounds.

that are in the church, in your church communities, that that friendship. So like maybe yeah, maybe it seems too much to to approach a priest or even a married couple you don't know. But if you you know, there's a peer, a peer friendship can be a great safe place to to start. Cause we need community. Like God made us for relationship.

That's the other piece. Like like why it's so damaging with the parents too is like w God did make us for relationships and when that relationship is damaged, that redounds not just on the image of God, but just also how we think of ourselves too. And a lot of times we need to recover our own identity, not just God's identity, through concrete embodiment of relationships and friendships in the church and the faith. So that is a good place to start.

Joey (13:53)

as well. I like that. And I like your advice that, you know, even if it's a little intimidating for someone to maybe jump into like a a group of people, the idea of like finding maybe one person you know who's practicing f you know, Christianity Catholicism and

Deepen that friendship, spend more time together, do fun things together, have good conversations, ask questions, like those sort of things I think are maybe a good simple first step. So I love what you were mentioning there. I want to shift gears. There's so much we could cover here. So I want to shift gears a little bit to this idea of struggling with the idea of like God as a father. So you you articulated super well about how, you know, if your experience of a father was really poor, it can be really difficult to relate to God in that way. And so what have you seen helps kind of work through that, overcome that barrier?

Dan Meola (14:38)

Yeah, I mean I mean there's two things well, three things really. One, there's the intellectual truth, the truth will set you free, right? You know, the church has really beautiful ex like teachings, like if you go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church about who God is. It's a really beautiful ⁓ section, but some of the basic truths that while God is imminent and he uses this familial language to describe his nature, he's also transcendent to all of that.

like every image, every metaphor while speaking a truth about God, like he is more. He is more. And so just to remember like God is transcendent even as like, yeah, he's trying to reveal something important to you through this familiar language. Because he is imminent. He is close with you. So just to remember that. And then with the familiar language, I always like to say, yeah, as painful as it can be, perhaps part of the reason God uses it so much in scripture, or matter of fact, I would say this is

Core reason why he used this familiar language so much in scripture is because he knew how much marriages would break down and there'd be pain in families. So rather than like something painful, he had you in mind using this language because he knew there'd be so much hurt and that this needed to be purified. Like our concept of love, marriage, and family, like he knew how important it was because he made us would always be in need of purification because of the woundedness that can follow from it. So it kind of kind of flips the script of like.

This is a painful thing versus this is part of the reason why God chose this language for you. But that's still the intellectual side, right? Faith, we believe, is union with God. And we can accept those truths in our intellect, but not kind of accept them in the heart. And that's where like prayer really matters. And we have to kind of examine the struggles we might have in prayer due to our wounds. I mentioned one about silence, like just acknowledging that.

Silence might be shameful and uncomfortable from our wounds to work through that. That there there is a silence that is safe, that is comforting, that is different than the shame face silence that you maybe had growing up. To also acknowledge that yeah, prayer is gonna be really hard initially when you didn't have that model. And on top of that, prayer is a dialogue with God, the vulnerability that's needed for prayer for somebody who is very guarded because they have been hurt.

the the vulnerability gonna be very hard. It's gonna be very hard in prayer at first. So just like to acknowledge like these are difficulties that you may encounter because of your wounds, but just to persevere, work through them, talk to somebody who has had similar difficulties in prayer, who can kind of be a mentor. A lot of children divorce like being spiritual directors, a priest, a layperson, a nun to help them to be a guide. Cause prayer is a grace, but it there's also work, like a great

prayer life doesn't happen overnight. Like you do have to be intentional and cultivated and learn from the masters, but it's important to see how our wounds can impede that. So maybe if you've had difficulties in praying, it's not necessarily that God doesn't care or you can't do it, but this is another layer to examine gently with the Lord that there might be some wounds here to to overcome and work through. And if you do that and you do eventually develop a consistent daily prayer life.

You will experience all those truths that we talked about earlier as something really in your heart. And it's gonna make life so much more bearable in the suffering and joyful in the good times and give you kind of a whole different lens. That's how I kind of like to describe the healing that the faith offers. Like growing up, we tend to see love and life through the lens of how those who raised us treated us. And that there's good and bad things.

Right in that lens. Faith gives us a new lens that can heal that. And a new presence that helps us understand that in our hearts we are loved, that we are beloved, that we can disappoint the Lord and sin and make mistakes but still be loved. There's so much there.

Joey (18:38)

Yeah,

no, I love that. And you made me think of something I heard Father Mike Schmidt say at one point, he said, In order to be healed, you have to revisit the place of your ruin. Mm-hmm. That was like super good. So it's kinda that's that's what I hear you encouraging people to do. You gotta kinda go into those s it's like, yeah, if the silence is a tricky thing or a difficult thing. And on that note, I think this whole question that you asked just cut so deep for me and

Dan Meola (18:52)

Yes, a hundred percent.

Joey (19:04)

'Cause it's something I asked a lot, especially as like a teenager and I know a lot of people listening and the people you walk with ask it a lot of like, you know, God, where were you? Like if God is good and loving and all powerful, like, why would he let my family fall apart? And so I know it's a big, big question and something we could talk about for hours, but I guess I'm you know, imagine someone's sharing that with you and they just feel like that abandonment. I know you already addressed it to some extent, but I'm curious what else you know you would add to someone kind of struggling with that idea.

So you just found out that your parents are getting divorced or maybe the pain from their split has started to resurface. Either way, you feel alone and you might even be experiencing emotional problems like anxiety, falling into habits that you're not proud of just to numb the pain, and struggling in or feeling afraid of romantic relationships. I've been there, I totally get it.

But worst of all, perhaps you fear that one day you might repeat your parents' story. If you can relate, I wrote a free digital guide for you. It's called Seven Ways to Work Through the Pain of Your Parents' Divorce. Inside, I share practical steps that you can take to grieve the loss of your family, healthy ways to deal with your pain, and expert tips to heal those wounds. It's what I wish someone would have told me years ago, seasoned by 20 years of experience navigating my parents' split.

Listening to hundreds of young people from broken families one on one and helping tens of thousands of us heal and grow. You are not alone and you're not doomed to repeat your parents' story. Download your free guide at restored ministry dot com slash seven ways or click the link in the show notes.

Dan Meola (20:33)

Yeah, it's a huge one. The mystery, you know, the church calls it the mystery of evil. The mysterium iniquitatis. It's interesting. Why do they say that? Because the church gives answers to the suffering, but at the bottom of it, like evil just doesn't make sense. At the bottom of it. And so like there is a mystery, a non-answer to this, because it just doesn't make sense why people would hurt an innocent little child.

Right. Like at the end of the day, like it doesn't make any sense or just hurt another human being made in the image of God. So there's a mysterium iniquitatis to just acknowledge that humbly. But the church and the saints and Christ certainly has said a lot about suffering. And one of the gifts of the faith that we reflect a lot on and why our ministry is named life-giving wounds is that it does give us this

beautiful new understanding of suffering as redemptive suffering, which is part of the answer. Again, there's a mysterium iniquitatis that is just will not be revealed until heaven. But you know, God it's it's a basic teaching of this of the church that God does not will suffering evil. He doesn't will it. Like it comes from our sin, it comes from the the flaws of creatures. Like he doesn't will it. It's not he is love. So then you say well why does this exist?

Well the classic answer is like, well, out of his loving heart, he has allowed it so that we can have free will to love him back. Because we to have freedom say yes could also have the freedom to say no. But it doesn't stop there. So if you stop there with the answer, it can seem God's very passive. Okay, intellectually, I get it. So that we can have free will and love. That's what is called God's passive will vis-a-vis suffering. But he also has an active will. If he

Allows it to be. It is only because He also wills and much more deeply to transform it, all suffering into love in His presence. And we get glimpses of that in our life. When the wounds through all the different healing things that we can do through grieving, through community, through forgiveness, through acceptance, when the wound can become a resource for love for yourself, for others, for your family, for your faith.

And so we get glimpses of how the Lord is doing that transformative work. And and so a lot of people need to understand that's the fullness of the redemptive suffering teaching. Like he doesn't let evil and suffering have the last word. And it's not a one-to-one, like, okay, you hurt him, I'm gonna love you. Like it's not a one-to-one ratio. Like, no, he wants to so thoroughly transform it, not just scabbing over the old pain, but to make it fruitful and just, yeah, again.

And there's kind of a mystery to this too, like this resource for good that far, far exceeds their original evil inflicted. And I see this all the time. Like an example, if this sounds too heady, to bring it back down to earth a little bit. Yeah. ⁓ I love adult children divorced who are preparing for marriage, who are also radically and intentionally seeking healing. Because they don't take anything for granted with love on account of their wounds. And that makes them stronger.

Because a good marriage doesn't just happen. Like you have to be intentional about work. Because you know, it it's not just wounds that are dangerous to marriage. It's also sins. It's also familiarity taking love for granted. Right. There's other reasons why marriage fails. It's not just wounds. They don't do that. So they actually come out stronger than somebody who didn't have wounds because they have that intentionality. So that's one example of like how the Lord can use woundedness for a far greater benefit.

And then you know they because of their intentionality go on, have a strong marriage, have many kids who didn't experience the pain of divorce, help maybe their friends and neighbors that are struggling in marriage, etc. So that's just one small example. I i the Lord is like way more creative than just that. But that is what gives me hope without answering this profound question. Is I have seen that active will of God in my life, in the lives of others, and it's really beautiful.

To get to a point, and this is gonna sound crazy to your listeners, that I I can proclaim now through a lot of work that I do feel like my wounds are one of the greatest gifts I've been given by God in my life. Not on account of their woundedness, not on account of suffering. No, he hates that. He he weeps over that. But on account of what the Lord has done through that to transform me for the better through that. Now that's like a later stage of like healing. Let me just say if you're you're thinking like, well, I you know.

My wounds just suck. Like, okay, like, yeah. And actually I still cry. I still have wounds. Like Father's Day was tough for me. That was just we're recording this a few days after this. Like Father's Day is still tough. My relationship is not I love my dad and we have a relationship and a friendship, but it's it's not where I want. You know, it's there's still there's a woundedness there. And and this is part of redemptive suffering too. It's not like you're all happy and clappy, like, there's all this redemption, like it can coexist.

That purpose, that deeper gift that I'm explaining, it can coexist with grief. And I think this is the beautiful teaching of redemption suffering in the Catholic Church too, is that these realities of grief and love can coexist together.

Joey (25:58)

No, no, there's a lot there and I thank you for going into sharing vulnerably too. I for some reason the story of a guy I I heard of I'm originally from the Chicagoland area and there's a story of I think they were on a boat and or no, they weren't on a boat, they were on a pier and these two kids I think fell into Lake Michigan and for some reason the water was like really cold and choppy and they c kinda got carried out, something freak. And so this guy jumps in to save them and he was able to get out to them

and bring, you know, one back and then the other back. But he had like exerted himself so heavily in this like really cold water, they ended up dying. Super sad story, but it it's kind of a it proves your point to the extent of like through this great suffering and sacrifice, something really good came from it. These kids' lives were spared. They were saved. They can go on and like live and grow and you know who knows what they'll do with their lives. But this whole idea of like, you know, suffering and pain

bringing some sort of good. You could even see it, I think, on a natural level. I know some people maybe don't fully track maybe with the kind of spiritual things that you and I both believe. But but you at least could see that on some natural level. And then that can maybe be like a precursor to understanding like, okay, I could see how this would work on even like a spiritual level. You know, thinking back of course to Jesus' death. It's like, man, that's a pretty evil thing killing God. And one thing I wanted to add when we were talking about like religious hypocrisy, it's like good thing to keep in mind that like

the religious leaders of the time actually killed Jesus. So something to be said for

Dan Meola (27:30)

His own followers. Yeah. His own yeah. He betrayed him. ⁓

Joey (27:34)

Who were like people

who are literally celebrating him days before, you know, saying this guy's the greatest, like literally wanted or chanting for his death. Pretty wild. So anyway, not to go back to that, but this idea of like okay, like God can bring good out of really bad things, I think is like it's a powerful lesson and I think we see it even on a natural level, even if people aren't at the point of like seeing it on a spiritual level.

Dan Meola (27:57)

Yeah, and I think that's an important part of healing because I think one of the greatest things that can weigh us down is we're just like empty handed with this pain. Like we're just so wounded, we're so damaged, we can't do XYZ. And you know, that's real. Those struggles are real. But we want to cultivate hope that yeah, you're not so damaged or beyond repair to be empty handed, right? Like there's something of a like goodness still present working within this suffering.

that can be unlocked. And that's why we we describe evil as a parasitic on the good. Right? The good is always greater. And evil can't exist outside of the good. It's parasitic. And so I like to think of it like there's still some good at work. Let's pray and talk about that and see that both on the natural and you know hopefully if they're open to it the supernatural level as well. And I think, yeah, anyways, I think that's an important part of healing. Of finding that, you know, in the Second World they might say finding a deeper

perspective or purpose, right? That's important. That's important. But we also have to hold in mind, and this again, this is why I love the church and the faith, integration of grief and purpose, you know, grief and fruitfulness from these wounds. Because there's two spiritual dangers, right? One spiritual danger is to kind of just wallow in the self-pity and the grief and to lose hope, purpose that we are made for something more.

draw good from this, right? You could say that's kind of a victim mentality where it's like all is lost and that's okay if you've been there. But we want to just acknowledge that and kind of work towards something that is more integrated for grieving. And then on the flip side, like of that hopelessness, that's why we call victim mentality the hopelessness. We don't want to go in the other direction, which is that spiritual bypassing where it's like, okay, we're just going to be so focused on the good. We don't know

ourselves, you know what I mean? And ⁓ we don't acknowledge our human need to grieve and just like and how good grieving is, but how important it is to let go of those burdens that are burdening your heart. I mean grieving is just it's so profound and something we we begin our book with and I always tell people like on retreats or all our programs, like if you do nothing else, and same for your podcast listeners, like if you take no other takeaway, just know the power of grieving with hope.

But it's both ends. It's grieving, but grieving with hope. But the grieving is important. Here I'm focusing on that because it's a form of love. Right? Like it would be a problem. It is a problem. And it's a sign of trauma when you have an inability to grief. Right? You feel really isolated. That's actually like it's a it's a mark of trauma. And that's a horrible, difficult place to be. And it takes time to thaw out. And I want to acknowledge that.

It takes time to thaw, but part of the healing process, the first step is that thawing out and beginning to grieve. But again, as Christians, we have grieving with hope. So to avoid those kind of spiritual dangers of the victim mentality, hopelessness, but also avoid spiritual bypassing. It's like I don't have any grieving to do here. Because again, grieving is to come back to the faith piece, we believe as Christians and Catholics in the Beatitudes, blessed are those who mourn. What the beatitudes are permanent attitudes of Christian believers, right? So like

We are called to mourn, seriously, again and again and again. And that's so important, but perhaps one of the most important reasons is because it's a form of love for the things or the people that we have lost that are good. So it it's about keeping our humanity intact, of knowing what is good and what is evil and loving. And allowing our hearts to pierce through that frozen tundra in into love, to thaw out and love. So it's the both and that's the great but

Darren is the difficulty. It's like yeah, threading that needle. I like that.

Joey (31:47)

Two

extremes I think it's really helpful, like the nihilism or victim mentality, which we've all sure fallen into. I know I have where ⁓ yeah, we maybe have this feeling, like you said, of powerlessness, of hopelessness, of like waiting for someone to come in and rescue us and do all the work to kind of take us away from the pain that we've experienced or the wounds that we have. And one of the most helpful switches for me there, if this is helpful for anyone, is ⁓ something Dave Ramsey of all people, the financial group.

Dan Meola (32:14)

I know. That's great. Yeah.

Joey (32:15)

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. He said something really well. He's like, You may have been a real victim which I would say children of divorce are true victim. Sure. But he goes on to say, but you were not meant to remain a victim, which I love. I think there's like s a truth in it. And so I think and what you're saying is so good and I want to get into grieving in a second here. Grieving is one of the ways in which we go from being kind of stuck in that place of victimhood, which victimhood exists for a reason. We're just not meant to be stuck in it to that place of being more of a, you know

Dan Meola (32:23)

Yeah, yeah.

Joey (32:45)

Well some people have said, like a victor, someone who is able to, you know, not just survive and get by, but truly like live a meaningful, joyful life, not just be like a sad people, but get to a place of joy. While avoiding, on the other hand, like you said, this idea of like the goal of healing is not a utopia. And I've even been tempted to this at times, and probably even guilty of it at times, of thinking of it in those terms of like, Well, once you're healed, then life will be great. Once you're healed, then you can love.

Dan Meola (33:13)

That's such a lie.

Joey (33:15)

It's such a lie. What like once you're healed then you can and and even this idea of like, you know, perfect healing and so yeah. So I think that I love that you kinda put those at odds and it's like, hey, we want to avoid that, but then we wanna have somewhat of this like middle ground where we can acknowledge that we were victims, but we're not meant to remain victims. We can live a joyful, good, meaningful life. I'm trying to do that right now and I've experienced so much joy in life.

But at the same time there's gonna be sorrow and suffering. So feel free to comment on any of that. And then I wanna jump into get your thoughts more on grieving because I know you talk a lot about this and wanna get into that. But feel free to comment on any of that. No.

Dan Meola (33:47)

Love it. Yeah, well said. I I never heard that Dave Ramsey quote, but very well said. I will just just a word to those who maybe have fallen into victim mentality. You mentioned you have, I have been there that you know, like that can be ⁓ part of grieving. It's just a matter of trying to get more towards a more integrated, wholesome grieving, if that makes sense. Like it's ⁓ to like grieve well, we have to first grieve messily. It's like something I say a lot. And and so like that

maybe a step that may be something you fall into. It it's just it's good to acknowledge that it's good to love yourself. It's just yeah, we don't want to stay there. Right. We we wanna move towards this more integrated what I call like grieving with hope. That that knowledge the both and. Similarly, like I would say another big temptation with grieving and we've all been there like is to isolate ourselves, right? And but we know like studies have shown that isolation actually increases the pain.

It increases the trauma. It ain't it's one of the marks of trauma is to feel isolated and alone. And it it causes loneliness causes so much damage. And again, we've all been there like in our grief, like we want to like corner down and like I remember in high school, I I would go to my room and just like scream into the pillow because I didn't feel like there was anybody else there to listen. Right. So like these are profound things like we all struggle with, but just to recognize again to love yourself.

And and there's a place for like grieving alone that's different than just completely isolating yourself from relationship. And and this is a big thing. Like grief is an invitation to communion. Like we we cannot grieve appropriately or in a healthy way alone. Like there can be times of aloneness, but even that, like that should be ideally with the Lord, you know? So it's okay if you've been there, but just to be aware of there's this

tendency to isolate when we grieve and and that can actually cause more problems and be kind of a dangerous place and and to to see grieving as an invitation to communion and I kinda got that insight from the Beatitude again. Blessed are those who mourn. Like it's plural. I've always found that really fascinating. Blessed are those. It's not just saying like Blessed is Joey who mourns by himself in his studio. Like and again, like that's great. Like that can be part of it. But like

The Lord Yeah, just to be aware of those two big ten well, three big tendencies, the spiritual bypassing, the victim mentality, but also the isolation, because that can really wreck you. And the the Lord invites you to to communion.

Joey (36:27)

Love that. On that note, what are the seven signs of Christian grieving? For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault, guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face.

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Dan Meola (37:35)

I mean we've already talked about a few of them. ⁓ one, just to recognize grief is love, that it's something of the good life the Lord promises us. Blessed are those who mourn. Two, ⁓ we talked about this invitation to communion. It is meant to be done with others. ⁓ again there can be alone periods. What's key is that you don't just completely isolate yourself, which is a temptation to do. I got this from a psychologist and I don't even know who it is, so I apologize. I can't give them credit. But

He or she said we need to reveal to heal. Like there's something really good about grieving with specificity. There's something about like doing that specific work with grieving can be healing. And this can be done a lot of ways. I'm a big proponent of like journaling, prayer journaling. But a lot of our alumni conversations with people, that's really important to have that. They come on a retreat for this, seeking this community. It could be done with a counselor, it could be done with the spiritual director, a mentor. But I would say the specificity, you do need some

Just time kind of examining your soul by yourself. Like sometimes it's good hearing other people's stories or listening to a podcast like this, but we need to like kind of chew on it, journal, prayer. ⁓ one thing I like to do is actually poetry. I think I think poetry is a really beautiful way to to lament. ⁓ I love the psalms for that. ⁓ shout out one of my favorite lines in the psalm is Psalm 423. Are you familiar with this line? it's it's talking about

person who believes in Jesus but or well believes in God, sorry, who is going through tremendous suffering and says his tears are his bread day and night. Like, I mean that's just like so poetic. Yeah. Like like he's so sorrowful he's not eating only the only sustenance in his life is from the tears that he's chewing on and eating. So some people find poetry art, you know, different ways to get this specificity.

And and I would say the longer you go in the healing process, the more they'll be revealed. Like I think God is good and gentle to us. Like he knows it's too much sometimes. Like you know, like so he just kind of reveals us little by little. ⁓ and there's new layers. Like ⁓ again, because Father's Day was recent to when we're recording this podcast, like the Lord revealed a new layer to my life about my wounds. It's like, okay, I've I've gotta mourn I gotta name this and mourn this too. So

We need to do this work of specificity to some degree. Now again, y to heal you don't need to like exhaustively do every single one, but there needs to be some specificity and to keep coming back to it from time to time. Another thing that we talk about we have these numbered in our book, but I'm going a little bit out of order. I I think it's I think it's really important for forgiveness, letting go of the anger is that we need to in our grieving and later on forgiveness process is a later step, much later than grieving.

But grieving is a part of it. ⁓ we've got to distinguish between the person is and his or her acts. I said this earlier, but it's it's really important to know that those who have hurt us always retain ⁓ their dignity. And so, yes, be angry at their actions, be angry that they hurt, but it is important, I think, to avoid language. I wish he or she was never born, I wish you were never my dad, or my mom, you know. ⁓ it's okay to like say that and get curious, like, okay, why?

But we do want to cultivate a sense of the dignity of the person while saying, yeah, that was a hateful act, that was a hurtful act, that was a sin, that was, you know, to distinguish between person, his her acts, that was really important for me in the grieving process too, because a lot of us have difficulty navigating anger and love in the grieving process. And what has helped me navigate anger and love is this distinction that okay, I can fiercely love my dad and his personhood, but hate certain

And we see this in scripture, right? ⁓ you know, God says he hates divorce. Malachi, I believe it's two sixteen, I'm sorry, Dan Dan translation if that's wrong. Don't have that off the top of my head. But yet he loves the woman who divorced seven times. The good Samaritan the not the good Samaritan, the Samaritan the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman at the right like how do you hold those two together? It's like, well, yeah, fiercely loved the person of the Samaritan woman, but

Joey (41:46)

Yeah.

Dan Meola (41:54)

He hates certain acts. Divorce is one of them, right? He knows the damage it causes. So that was important for me to navigate anger and love and to kind of set me up for success for forgiveness, which is later on. And I guess this is the last piece that good Christian grieving works towards acceptance. And what is acceptance? Probably the best definition I've heard of acceptance is Father Jacques Philippe. Acceptance is choosing the crosses we did not choose for ourselves.

with the goal of developing interior freedom and bringing faith, hope, and love versus rebelling or resigning ourselves with resentment. And so, you know, Christian grieving should work towards this acceptance of the crosses and and a big piece of that later in the process is forgiveness. And I think you you help yourself let go of the anger and the resentment towards acceptance and give up the rebellion when you can begin to distinguish

the dignity of the offender from his or her act. Wow. And and this is this is why too, just to go really deeply here, I'm just gonna put it out there. Like to have forgiveness, you need to first have grieving. So if you want acceptance, like you want to work towards forgiveness, letting go of that anger. And now what I say let go, like it's okay to feel anger. That's part of the grieving process actually. I I I love anger now. I used to hate it. I used to be uncomfortable with it. But I love it.

But we wanna eventually work towards letting it go through acceptance, through forgiveness. But it's choosing the crosses that we did not choose for ourselves, Father Jacques, Philippe, ⁓ so that we can have interior freedom, so that we can have faith, hope, and love. So there's a purpose. It's not just ⁓ resonation. Resonation, there's no purpose. Resonation is just like, this will happen to me. So be, so be it. You know. Sometimes acceptance is presented as that way, and that's that's actually resonation. And it adds to the original suffering by keeping you trapped in that.

Just like rebellion adds to the original suffering and and the only way out is through acceptance. So I'll stop there. That's a lot.

Joey (43:57)

No, no, th it's really powerful and no, I definitely would encourage people if you're still chewing on some of that to re-listen to the those parts. I love what you said about kind of this three options, if I'm getting them right, of like ⁓ you know, resignation with resentment, reb rebelling, like not taking the cross at all, or resign, like you said, with or and then the middle ground of actually like choosing it with freedom. Yeah. I think that well, there's power in that, and that's really good. That's fine.

Dan Meola (44:21)

Philippe Interior Freedom. Just wanna give a shout out. It's an awesome book. Awesome book.

Joey (44:26)

The I always joke that the the cure to my anxiety, Dan is his other book, ⁓ searching for and maintaining peace of hardness. ⁓ that's a good one. It's like whenever I've been going through like anything, whenever there's like intense like pressure in life and like there's anxiety that comes a reserve result of it, that like I turn to that, I read it, I chew on it, I pray with it and ⁓ it it works, it helps. So ⁓ shout out to them. We'll throw all that in the show notes for you guys if you wanna check those out. But the other thing ⁓ that I could just kind of observed in you talking about

Grief is that it seems like grief is something that you do, but it's also something that just kind of happens to you. is there do you think there's value in like the traditional talking about the traditional ⁓ stages of grieving or do you find that they're not as helpful to people?

Dan Meola (45:11)

The stages can be helpful as as so long as there was a misunderstanding of them in the nineties and early two thousands of of kind of being these linear steps. I don't think that's what Kubler Ross actually intended, 'cause I've kind of gone back and I don't think she ex intended it to be steps linearly, then you're done. So as long as you don't like as long as you see it as like grieving as more cyclical, I think that's healthy because like grieving is not usually a linear process. And

If we're gonna like geek out on psychology for a minute 'cause I love it, I really like sure, so the steps can be helpful, right? But if you but you need to complement that with kind of like understanding it's gonna be cyclical as new layers come up, you know, new wounds of dysfunction comes up, right? It it's gonna be cyclical to some extent. So it's like, I'm I'm just done with grieving. once I hit ⁓ acceptance stage. And that would be a mistake too, like with what I'm saying, like ⁓ part of acceptance is coming back to grieving as well.

And the model that I like is Lewis Tonkin. Are you familiar with his work? Yeah, so I I think it's a nice compliment to the steps. Like I think there are steps or we describe as kind of characteristics of grieving that we want to be working towards. But Tonkin says that there are some losses that are so deep and so great, they never go away. But yet healing is still possible. And what happens with these great losses is like while the grief may stay constant, let's imagine a black dot

And like the heart through the grieving process, through acceptance, through forgiveness, and all these different means that we can have to let go of the anger, etc., our hearts can enlarge around the grief. So I really like that. Like there's there's some grief that this side of heaven is gonna remain, but our hearts can grow around it so that it doesn't have as big of an impact on our life, or doesn't have as big of a hold on our heart, and is integrated in our hearts. So I like that.

understanding of grief. And if you understand it that way, then you understand it's this cyclical process that is part of the good life. And this side of heaven, by the way, we're talking about paralyce, separation. Like nobody comes out unscathed. So like we we all have to do this. We are all gonna experience death of ourselves, but also of loved ones. Right? Th nobody comes out unscathed. So so I like thinking of it, whether you think of it in terms of steps or you you think of it in terms of

characteristics to work towards like we talk about or Lewis Tonkin, like it's it's integration and enlarging our hearts. So it's a cyclical. So grieve is a cyclical practice that I would say is a virtue, right? That's my own language. I don't know who talks about that way, but like it's just maybe Beatitudes a little bit better in the church language. But ⁓ it's just it's something that's just supposed to be part of our life. And the sooner that we embrace that, the happier we will be. Rather than always resisting it as like taboo.

Yeah. To be avoided. And just so much tension is just added when we don't allow ourselves to grieve at times.

Joey (48:08)

No, that's really good. I was challenged ⁓ in the past by a past therapist of mine who kind of challenged me in the way that you're talking right now of saying, like instead of jumping to resentment toward this person who hurt you, what if you were just to allow yourself to feel the sadness warranted by the situation? And it was a profound shift for me. I was like, Yeah, I've kinda kinda like skipping over that and like going more to the anger resentment side of things. And not that, like you said, there's nothing wrong with that. There's a place for that, feeling that, getting curious about it.

But it it was pretty profound for me that I was almost like burying sadness with like resentment. And so I love that, yeah, these things are kind of like the stages and I'm sorry, someone's probably listening wondering five stages of grieving? Like ⁓ would do you mind explaining briefly like what those are? I know we're close to the end of our time together here, but yeah, just the five stages of grieving. I I think it's what starts with typically anger, but it might not it they're not linear. Like you said, it can be in a different order and you can jump back and forth.

Dan Meola (49:06)

Yeah, I mean the best thing is to look up it it's okay, the five stages of grief according to Kubler Ross. So I mean look that up. But I mean the five stages I believe are denial denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance, I think is the the order. Double check this if you're listening to this podcast. Yeah, I and I I think those are definitely parts of the grieving process. Again

Joey (49:13)

So

That's right.

Dan Meola (49:36)

I just think the danger is if you th if you see grieving kind of linearly and it's like it's much more messy than that. It's sick cool. So like yeah, that those those are helpful steps to acknowledge and be part of. But but the other thing too, like I don't necessarily subscribe to that model because like I do think it can be done in a different order. So like you know, I in my own grieving process, like I am pretty sure I started with anger. Like you know, like like again

For other people, they're scared to death of anger, right? And I get it, and maybe denial is more comfortable to them. So like again, I think she highlighted it was really helpful that she highlighted, hey, these are these are normal parts, including depression, I think was interesting. ⁓ to kind of normalize that, like, yeah, we all kind of go through depression at times. Like that that's okay. I think there's a lot of truth and goodness to that. But yeah, I just I feel like there can be different orders. So again, I kind of subscribe a little bit more to Tonkins.

But there's no perfect model, let let's just put this out there. There's no perfect model of grieving. And so when I approach grieving in my own life, I think of the characteristics that I'm working to in my grief. But I mean practically like it it could be like just the other day, it's a prayer and a poem that I was writing to the Lord, grieving something new and that's what it was. And then I shared it with my wife and talked about it. So like where would that fall in the five steps? I guess acceptance. But yeah, I I mean it did take me a long time to get there. But no, I mean there was also though

because it was a new wound, there was anger there too. So like that's that's the problem with these steps is like like if I look at like what I just was doing this week, like there was a little bit of anger, it was a little bit of depression and sadness. And it was a little it was a little bit of acceptance, you know, my prayer and the poem I was writing to the Lord grieving something new that was discovered well Father's Day. So they're helpful, but there's no perfect model of grieving. So

Joey (51:27)

Yeah. No, I appreciate that. It makes me think of the movie Inside Out where they're, you know, sh ⁓ Riley, the main character, has these like simple emotions and then eventually, you know, develops more complex emotions and then her memories become like intertwined with two different emotions all at once. So it's like, Yeah, they were complex for sure. And it's hard to what I had a teacher who would always say that like, ⁓ all models are imperfect, some are helpful.

Dan Meola (51:50)

Yeah.

Joey (51:52)

So it's like don't get married to to that type of a model.

Dan Meola (51:56)

Yeah, and there's some the like the Lord allows some creativity in our grieving in like how we do it. Again, that's why I kinda prefer like characteristics to work towards and like how they all go together. So uniquely individual. And I think that's cool. I think it's great that some people like to grieve with poems. I like I think it's some it's great some people like to jam to like certain types of music. I think it's great the people that pray in front of the Eucharistic adoration at in a church. Like I think that's great. You know, like you know, I I would obviously say as a Catholic, like

Joey (52:06)

Yeah.

Dan Meola (52:25)

you w one of those is more important than the other, but but ⁓ the Lord is so creative in the healing process and creative in the grieving process too, which is is beautiful to see.

Joey (52:37)

I love that. No, I I know someone who's like expresses a lot of pain through writing and there's been a lot of good that's come from that. I know for myself there's something about when I'm going through a hard time, like music is incredibly comforting. And so anyway, without going too deep into that, ⁓ yeah, wow, so so good. Dan, obviously there's way more that can be said. And so if people want to go deeper into your resources, get the book, maybe look at a r coming on a retreat. Tell us a little bit about what you guys offer and how they can take a next step toward

Getting book and doing something with you guys.

Dan Meola (53:08)

Joey.

So yeah, we're a Catholic nonprofit and apostolate called Life Giving Wounds. You can find out more information on lifeguinwounds.org. We run retreats, we run support groups, for anybody 18 and older, for your parents, like if you've experienced your parents' divorce at any age, but you're now addressing it. We we wrote a book which we've been talking a little bit about. It's just called Life Giving Wounds, a Catholic Guide to Healing for Adult Children Divorce Separation, ⁓ published with Ignatius Press. You can find it on Amazon, our website.

them. So yeah, just you know, join us. ⁓ we also even have ⁓ like a free quiz like if you just want to begin to explore kind of how maybe your parents' divorce separation has affected you. Like we've developed kind of a quiz with our psych advisors, kind of like a quick assessment. It's not a formal psychological assessment, but just like a starting point. we got a lot of resources. ⁓ again I I'm a big poetry guy. I think one of the coolest resources I'm kind of a geek

We have a cool poetry section on our website. Yeah. So we we got a lot of different means.

Joey (54:11)

Cool. Okay. Yeah, and I know you guys do with retreats across the country to

Dan Meola (54:14)

Yeah. So like if you just go to our event calendar on our website, we've got ⁓ we ran forty four retreats and support groups last year all across the country, California, Texas, New Jersey, all over. I think the next one coming up is in Austin. So if you're in the Austin area, love to have have you join us.

Joey (54:31)

Sweet man. Well, I appreciate what you do and you're spearheading, you know, so much in this area. So just yeah, admire you for that and thank you for ⁓ and you and your team for the good work you're doing. So returning you on and glad you could come back and ⁓ make your ⁓ third appearance on the show. man. man

Dan Meola (54:49)

It's

all right. ⁓

Joey (54:51)

Right.

You live out to all the hype. No You you were a great man. No, appreciate it. So ⁓ yeah, so definitely encourage everyone to check out Life Giving Moons. We will link to everything that Dan mentioned in the show notes. You can get the book, check out the poetry section, or you know, check out the website at the very least. And so ⁓ yeah, definitely encourage you guys to do that. But Dan, as I usually do, I wanna give you the final word. So I'm just wondering what final encouragement or advice would you offer to to everyone listening, especially, you know, adult children of divorce who

Dan Meola (54:54)

Yeah yeah.

Joey (55:21)

are struggling in their relationship with God, who maybe are afraid of, you know, even opening that door, what what final encouragement or advice would you offer to them?

Dan Meola (55:29)

Yeah, just you're not alone. You're not alone. if you feel abandoned by God, if God feels far, if God feels unsafe, should also mention that because of our childhood experiences, like you're not alone in that. There's others who have felt the same way like you. And just encourage you to to explore that and join us or use Joey's resources or w you know, maybe it's your local parish or church, whatever it is. But just just to know

The Lord loves you and He's gentle, He's tender, He's full of love. And yeah, He wants to help heal you in this deeper way in that the faith can be so good and such an asset for healing from my own life. I would not be who I am or have experienced as much healing enjoying my life without the faith. I do believe it's the deepest level of healing and I hope and pray every listener out there ⁓ gives it a chance to experience that too. God bless.

Joey Pontarelli (56:31)

That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing episodes and help us reach people. And in closing, always remember you are not doomed repeat your family's dysfunction. can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, you can start where you are change ending.

Did They Ever Love Me?

3-minute read.

This story was written by Mickela at 21 years old. Her parents divorced when she was 17. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

It's quite a long story - but my whole childhood involved a lot of abuse between my parents - whether it was sexual abuse, verbal abuse, physical abuse... it wasn't until my siblings and I started seeking help that child services and law enforcements came in. When I was 17, my family forcefully had to separate because of the toxic circumstances we were in, which led further into my parents’ separation and then divorce.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

Weirdly enough, it was something I always wanted for my parents. Part of me knew that the only way out of this abuse was if either I would leave or my parents would divorce - which only happened later in my life - even after we were all separated into foster homes, my parents would still see each other. It has only been 1 year that they have now officially divorced. It breaks my heart - part of me wanted them to separate, but there is always that little girl inside of me who wishes she could have seen her parents in love, healthy, and be united with her family. At times I even question if I was ever even wanted by them, if they think about me time to time, if it ever crosses their minds about the 6 kids that they had, all 6 being sent into foster homes. Did they ever love me? Was I enough? Through therapy and my walk with Christ, I'm learning that what my parents brought and carried to us does not have to be dragged into my own life - I'm not defined by what I have been through. I must first seek what God says about me!

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

It made me scared to date. Scared that I would end up in a broken marriage, scared that I would repeat those generational cycles I see within both sides of my family - it's a heavy burden to carry. I felt so broken and didn't know where to turn, which then later led me to seek relief through drinking, mutilation and more. I was blessed to be fostered into a family who had a strong relationship with God, and showed me the truth about freedom that I can find within Him. Now that I'm 22, I still carry those wounds, but they don't seem to drag me down like they used to - by surrounding myself with healthy and stable families, I was able to realize that I am in fact not doomed to repeat my parents’ marriage and that there is hope for a brighter future.

WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARARTED OR DIVORCED?

Don't pretend like you're fine. Be honest with yourself, with God, with your friends and family members. Hiding or suppressing those emotions and broken-heartedness will only cause big mental explosions later on - and numbness doesn't lead you anywhere good. Reach out to people who can be role models, role parents, people with whom you feel comfortable being at your 100% honest self. Believe that you can do this, that you don't have to carry this pain alone. Do not fear!

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

Oh my goodness! I could write thousands of paragraphs on this topic - it all depends on the circumstances in which the family is going through. One thing that I realized within my church community is how people tend to back away from divorced couples - which shows that people aren't informed on how to react and support single parents, children of broken or separated homes... People need to be informed, especially within church settings. Church is a home for the broken-hearted families, not only for the perfect settings.

---

Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

You Can’t Heal Without Safe People or Boundaries | Billy: #177

When your family breaks apart, especially through years of fighting, manipulation, or emotional chaos, you can learn to survive by staying busy, shutting down, or pretending it didn’t affect you.

But what happens when that pain starts showing up in your marriage, your parenting, your confidence, or the way you handle conflict?

In this episode, Billy shares how her parents’ long, painful divorce began after years of intense conflict, manipulation, and isolation. She opens up about coping through overachievement, the safe adults who helped her heal, and the boundaries she’s had to learn with an unsafe parent.

We discuss:

• Why Billy expected her parents to divorce, even as a child

• How she coped by becoming highly involved, successful, and busy

• The loneliness of growing up without safe adults nearby

• How one pastor’s wife helped her feel truly loved for the first time

• Why journaling helped her process, remember, and heal

• How her husband helped her learn to handle conflict without fear

• What boundaries with a parent can look like as an adult

• How Billy is building a healthy family, even though she didn’t come from one

If you’ve ever wondered how to honor your parents without letting them control you, or how to build something healthier than what you came from, this episode is for you.

Resources Mentioned:

Share Your Story with Restored

7 Ways to Work Through the Pain of Your Parents’ Divorce or Separation

The Gottman Institute

Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts by Drs. Les & Leslie Parrott:

The Anatomy of Peace by The Arbinger Institute

Show notes

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

speaker-1 (00:00)

Autumn, welcome to the show. So good to have you here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk with you. You've been through so much. You have struggled with things like depression, even struggles with suicide or ideation at least. You have struggled a lot in relationships you've shared, whether it's your relationship with your parents or romantic relationships. But you didn't let that crush you. You worked through so many things. You're in a better spot today. And I'm so excited to see kind how you went from where you were to where you are today. But starting out, I wanted to kind of go back to the beginning. You were 14 years old.

when your parents shared the news that they were getting divorced, but you weren't surprised. Why weren't you surprised and what led your family to that position of your parents getting divorced? I wasn't surprised because the tension in my house was very palpable. My parents were speaking to each other, but weren't hugging, weren't kissing, showing any sorts of affection. And my father was sleeping upstairs in the guest room. And I remember asking my mother why, and she said,

Well, he gets up early on the weekends to, he was training for triathlons at the time. So he gets up early, early on the weekends. I don't want to get woken up. And I just didn't buy that. I think I was a little too old to buy that line. So that was kind of the first inclination. And then I actually met the woman he was cheating with. And so when my mom broke the news to me that my father had committed adultery, I immediately said, it's this woman. And.

I pulled up the picture of her because he introduced us to her and I said, it's her. So I think on some subliminal level, I knew that their relationship was a little more than friendly. I didn't know the real start of the story was when my brother was just born. So this was about 2006. My father had previously committed adultery with his secretary at his workplace. And I did not know about that affair, but my mother forgave him for that affair and they moved on.

there was just a pattern of infidelity in the relationship and my mother and father tried to work things out, but there just didn't seem to be any road to reconciliation. So that was when they decided to divorce. And there was a point at which you realized that the infidelity that you saw, you know, with your dad didn't start with your parents. There were signs of it in previous generations. Yeah, take me to that moment when you kind of realized, this goes deeper than just my parents' marriage. I think

The fact that on the grandparent level there had been cheating as well. My dad's dad cheated on his wife when he was in the military and even left the family for a few, maybe not a year, but a couple months. So my dad had seen that and unfortunately fell into that pattern. But it also was on my mother's side as well. Her grandmother was cheated on repeatedly by her grandfather. And so it kind of ran through both sides. So.

Thankfully, my mom was very open about our past and it wasn't like a shameful thing. was, you know, these people made mistakes, but they're still our ancestors. So I did know about that. And I think that helped me kind of cope a little, little bit knowing that, you know, it's easy to fall into the sin. And my dad did not get the best example growing up. He didn't see a faithful relationship. So without having that example, it was hard for him to replicate it in his own marriage. when did your mom share that news about your grandparents? I'm curious.

⁓ I can't remember a time not knowing. think I was always kind of curious about people I'd never met. And so I just asked all sorts of questions and she was always very open with me and not judgmental, but just letting me into the fact that there were good things about our ancestors and bad things. And these were some of the bad things. Okay. Now that makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like you, yeah, like you said, you were curious and it wasn't this thing where she was kind of like cheering it with you that overwhelmed you. Okay. Yeah. Now that makes sense. I've heard.

kind of the opposite side of the story. That's why I was asking where, you know, parents ended up sharing and dumping, which I know we'll get to a little bit later, but dumping maybe information that kids don't really need to know, at least not at that point in their life. And so I'm glad to hear that at least given this topic, it was done in a way that wasn't overwhelming to you. Yes, that came later, the dumping, unfortunately. We're getting into, but on this note of infidelity, I'm curious, how did

you know, the families, the paths and fidelity with grandparents, and specifically your father's cheating, impact how you viewed men, love, relationships, and especially this idea of like being faithful. It seemed unattainable to me. Most of my friends, it seemed at the time, looking back, I know this wasn't the case, but it seemed like everyone's parents I knew were breaking up, getting divorced, having all sorts of issues. So I just thought that this wasn't possible for me. Like it was, it was in my blood somehow that I couldn't be faithful.

So that was really, really tough to kind of get over that fear and realize that the cycle can stop with me and it doesn't have to be a generational thing that is like in my DNA or something like that. So it sounds like you've wrestled with that a bit. I'm curious. I've dealt with similar questions and I'm curious, was there a specific moment when you kind of came to that realization that, you know, this doesn't have to be me in my story? There's certainly that fear, right? And I hear this with a lot of people, I guess it's like,

we're really afraid of repeating our parents' story. Because we've seen that. We've seen, you know, kind of like with the grandparents that started there, went to your parents, you know, not blaming them, but there's certainly this trend that you see that's hard to ignore. And so, yeah, I'm curious if there was a specific moment where you kind of realized like, no, this doesn't have to be me. I think in preparing to be married to my now husband, a lot of these fears came up, especially in like the engagement and pre-engagement period. I think I had to just honestly take a leap of faith and

recognized that he came, like look at the objective facts. He came from a good whole family where there was no divorce present. That was healing for me to at least have one of us have a whole family. So I saw a good example of marriage from his parents. I had many examples of good marriages around me. So I knew it was theoretically possible, even if it wasn't for my parents. And I think the knowledge that helps me the most actually is that my parents were frankly just incompatible with each other and both had very traumatic upbringings.

And in comparison, my upbringing was more positive, not saying there was nothing bad, but more positive. So I had just better tools to use to resolve conflicts. And that coupled with the good examples that I saw coupled with just God, ⁓ you know, having Catholicism in my life and having the blessed sacrament and confession and just having those, just having the tools to be a good partner, I think helps me take the leap and get married.

No, I love them. I felt similar in a lot of ways, like looking back at my parents. I love my parents and you know, I know they would admit that there were mistakes that they made. I clearly see that, but still love them of course. And in a lot of ways I've come to this place of compassion where it's like, man, they had to do so much with so little. And I feel like, you know, it sounds like we're the same in that we were given so much. had people in our lives, especially for me, and we'll get to this in your story, like mentors and people who kind of stepped into fill those roles, maybe where mom and dad didn't quite live up to what.

I need it. so, so yeah, so it's like looking back at it almost feels unfair. It's like, I, yeah, I've been so blessed. There's been so much good given to you feel the same. think it is kind of unfair to expect a perfect marriage from two people who grew up in very broken homes and in a very, they grew up almost in a cult. That's a whole nother story, but that whole situation was super damaging to them. I, yeah, I just can't imagine. So I try to imagine my parents as the ages that I.

see them as, which is teenagers. There were certain events in their life that didn't let them move past that. So when I think of my mom as a teenager who's struggling and has abusive parents and my dad and his situation with his mom leaning on him emotionally, I mean, it was just a mess on both accounts. So I try to think of them as teenagers and that helps me to have a lot of compassion for them. That's a good tactic. And as you know, before everyone listening, that's one of the effects of trauma. It can literally keep you like stuck.

developmentally in the past, or at least when you're triggered in certain ways, you literally act as like an 11 year old or a 14 year old or whatever age you might be kind of forced back into. And so I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you just said, but I'm curious, was there anything else specifically in your view of maybe men that kind of bled from your dad's behavior into your relationships? thought that every fight would end in the dissolution of the relationship. So I put up and shut up. I let...

one partner kind of take advantage of me because I thought that's what you had to do to be liked and stay in the relationship. So I kind of modeled what my mom had to do to keep the relationship together, if that makes sense. And I couldn't have a voice because my mom didn't have a voice. And at the same time, this resentment of men just was simmering under the surface. You know, they're not faithful. They can't be faithful.

Is it even worth it? Like, is marriage worth it? I don't even want to have kids. You know, it just all felt like too much of a risk because men seemed so, you know, wishy washy and like you couldn't depend on them because I couldn't depend on my dad. So that was kind of the underlying belief under all of that angst. Yeah. And it's true in some situations, like you experienced with your dad and, you know, sadly in our culture, it's like a really common thing for men to be exactly what you described. but I'm really curious. So you ended up with a guy at one point who

really mimicked your dad in so many ways. I remember in the article I read, you said, Freud would be proud. So just kind of recreating that same environment relationship that you had, you know, with your father, but you didn't stay there, which I really admire. I'm curious, like you came to a point where like, I need to break up with this guy. he? And I'm curious what changed in you and maybe take us to that moment when you're like, this has to stop.

I think COVID was a point for a lot of people to figure out what they needed to change in their life. For us, I was under the sad illusion that people who disagreed on very fundamental issues and beliefs could still make it work in a relationship. so we disagreed about very, very many things. At that time, I was still an agnostic, so we should have on paper worked well together. But at a certain point in about April, 2020, I realized our beliefs about

this pandemic and really everything are completely different and they cannot be reconciled. I just had this one little thought in my head of, want to raise my children in the faith. I was agnostic, so that makes no sense. But I think I wanted my children to have a structure, even if I didn't believe in that structure. That was a non-starter with this particular boyfriend. That was it. Breaking point. I'm curious, was there a point ever

in your relationships where you were just like, you mentioned this a little bit before, but you were just like, why even try? Like, I'm not even gonna go down the route of love and marriage. I'm not even gonna, you said you didn't even want kids at one point. Yeah, like tell me a little bit about that experience and how you came around to the point of like, no, I think this might be worth it. After that relationship dissolved, I resigned myself to be a cat lady for like the rest of my life. It was very dramatic. I'm sure you would make a great cat lady out of me. I was 20, I mean.

There was no reason to be this dramatic, but I was ready for it to be over because I was like, that was a year and a half of my life. I can't, and my judgment is so bad. Like I couldn't trust my own judgment. I felt like if I dated that guy and thought that was love, then I need to have a reality check. So I think I was just ready to write it all off and give up because it is a lot of effort to be in a relationship and it's very vulnerable and being in love is very vulnerable.

And so you don't want to get hurt again. And I was tired of being hurt by that point, especially with my parents' situation. And then my now husband comes into my life and I'm like, oh, gosh, okay. Love makes no sense. I love this guy, even though I am so scared of that, that I do love him, but I couldn't stop it. You were scared. What were you scared of exactly? I we're kind of talking about all of this, maybe going back a little bit, but yeah, what scared you the most maybe? The first one that came to mind is rejection. Just not.

getting into a relationship and marriage, which I believed and still believed at that time is permanent and realizing, oh, this person doesn't love you and that you don't love this person. That was my personal nightmare. Cause my parents, that's, that was my parents story. They liked each other, but they probably shouldn't have gotten married. You know, they just weren't compatible. So I feared that. feared that. A hundred percent. My mom shared at one point that this isn't maybe too much, but my mom shared at one point that, um,

Yeah, my dad and her didn't have the healthiest relationship. And I think they both would admit that at some level before they were married. And I think there were even people in their lives like telling them like, no, you're like not a good idea. Don't do this. And for one reason or another, they just kind of pushed ahead, kind of fell their way into marriage. yeah, and then it led to just a really unhealthy place, unfortunately. Yeah, I know that there's so much to say on the relationship end. What about your husband made you believe that like a man

could be different than everything you experienced before and that he could be faithful in particular. He could apologize. Wow. I mean, that was huge. He could say, I'm sorry and mean it. That was a huge thing for me. He was upset when he made me upset. It wasn't all about him. We resolved our conflicts with words. All of that gave me hope that we could make a marriage work.

And he just loved me. Like he, he cared about me. He cared about my family. He would go out of his way to do things for me. He drove an hour and 30 minutes, like every week to visit me. So yeah. And he had, he had good parents. Like that is so key. Cause I was, I was like, I can't be in a relationship with someone else who has divorced parents. know some people can do that, but I just, I needed a guy from a good household and he was that. So that was nice too. Yeah. No, I don't think you should feel.

guilty or anything about that. know sometimes that could be a little triggering for people, but I think it's, you know yourself and you knew that's what you needed. I have friends who both came from, you know, divorced families and they've made it work and they've, from everything I could tell, a really beautiful marriage. Yeah, but I know others where they're like, no, that is absolutely a requirement of mine. So, so yeah, I think that's, that could be really wise. I love that what you said about your husband though. And I think, you know, one of the most important decisions we can make, let me just spend some time here, is um,

on choosing a spouse. so I, you one of the things that I like to say is you can tell kind of where someone's priorities are by how they spend their time and their money. And if they spend their time like and their money just on themselves, uh, that that's, think a red flag, but if they're doing that for others, like you said, your family, for you, I think that's a really good and beautiful thing. I love the fact that your husband is humble. That's a really beautiful quality. think people should look for, because on one level, as you know,

It's the foundation of all the virtues. But it also, like you said, so well, it gives you the ability to apologize, to admit when you're wrong, which I'm sure you've noticed, like it happens a lot within marriage. I certainly have noticed that. So yeah, I'm so curious, like, was there a list of qualities you were adamant about in addition to wanting someone from, you know, a healthy family? If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story.

Reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level and makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, they're less anxious, they're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the same path that you're on but a bit far behind you.

to just hear your advice and to hear your story since you're going through things that you've been through. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restoredministry.com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restoredministry.com slash story, or just by clicking the link in the show notes. Your list of requirements gets shorter and shorter as you get older. ⁓ I wanted someone who wanted children, smart, funny.

Ideally, caring gets along with my friends and family. That's very important. He kind of fit all those boxes. Attractive to me doesn't necessarily mean attractive to everybody, but attractive to me. Ambitious. I love music. That was a non-negotiable. I was like, I need someone to love music with me, otherwise they're not going to understand me as a person. Yeah. Love that. No, I like the mix of the objectives. You got to have these and then.

these like more subjective to you, but really important and still non-negotiables. That's really, really good. I did make the list of like the qualities I wanted, but I remember one of the things that really attracted me to my wife was just her selflessness. Kind like your husband, I noticed that she just had a heart for other people. Like she's a nurse and so clearly like her job literally requires her to care for others. She, you know, was involved in like ministry at our college campus. So it was like this kind of obvious thing. Like, yeah, she's clearly like time and money. Like she's...

proof that she's putting it into that. So that was one of the things that really attracted me. What would you say to maybe a woman like you were at the time who maybe doesn't know what she wants to look for in this spouse? Like obviously there's all these different qualities. What are some, yeah, what are maybe some of the big ones in addition to what we mentioned of like someone who's humble, can they admit that they're wrong? Like, yeah, what advice you give on that? I'm curious. think the biggest thing for young women is you want to be with the guy who wants to be with you. It sounds so simple, but I can't think of how many times

If you have to ask yourself, what's he thinking about? Does he really want to hang out with me? Why isn't he answering this text message? He just might not be the one. He might not be actually into you. But I think women, kind of like on some level crave that uncertainty maybe. It's hard to describe, but if a man is not excited to see you, wanting to see you, sad when you leave, happy when you arrive, like you just need to, you need to cut your losses, I think, and walk away.

That's probably one of the big ones. And someone who shares your values. Don't waste your time with a guy who you don't agree with on the fundamentals because in marriage, you don't want to spend your time arguing about the fundamentals. You want that to be something you're aligned on. So whether that's like kids or are we going to homeschool or what church are we going to go to? Those are big issues that you just don't want to about every day.

Right? marriage is hard enough as it is. Like if you add those like big wedges between you, my goodness, I don't know how couples make it there. And if it's okay, I just wanted to throw in, you know, in addition to those things you mentioned, what the researchers say is there's like kind of five big areas of life where you need to be on the same page. And you mentioned God, parenting, you know, how are you going to raise your kids? How many kids are you going to have? Or just an openness to life. Money being another one. A healthy relationship with your in-laws, being able to set boundaries there.

And then intimacy, especially sexual intimacy, you before marriage, but even within marriage, like having boundaries there and having like a plan being on the same page with what that looks like. And yeah, from what I've been told, if you're on the same page in those five areas, your chance of having a happy, know, successful marriage just shoots way up. So I love your advice. It's good. I want to transition a little bit if that's okay. So you had mentioned that you struggled with, you know, depression. There was a lot of anger, some suicidal ideation, but some of the things that

I think two of the things that stuck out to me the most in reading your story was the anger and the addiction. And so if it's okay, I wanted to go into those little bits. Maybe let's start with the anger. You were angry at your parents, at God. What were you angry about and what did you learn to do with that anger? I was angry about everything. Angry that my picture-perfect life had been taken away. We had to sell my childhood home because divorce costs money and it's so expensive.

So we had to sell my childhood home and leave it and move into a very, we were poor for many years is basically what I'm trying to get at. And that was really, really hard, especially in my suburb that is kind of upper middle class, I would say. So I just felt shame and that turned into anger. I was angry at my dad for thinking that he did nothing wrong. I think if we had a conversation today, I don't know how much.

self-reflection has happened, I hope more, but at the time he was convinced he did nothing wrong in the relationship. So that made me angry. I was angry at my mom for filing for divorce, even though on some level I knew it was justified. It was just very complex. And so I was just angry all the time and I didn't really do anything with it until college. So it kind of just simmered and turned into bitterness and resentment and judgmental thoughts of others. And that kind of continued.

for years. So I did not handle it productively at the time. think that's a common experience. I know I experienced that too. I remember when I learned the news that my parents were getting divorced, I just felt so much anger. Like I wanted the people involved to die. And I was a love-neural kid at the time and it was just like so pent up. And then I think over time, I'm curious if you would agree with this, yeah, we just learned to kind of hide it because we know that rocking the boat and adding more drama to an already dramatic situation is not probably going to help.

at least in some situations. Some people do act out and kind of cry for attention in that way. But I think there's a lot of people who care a lot of anger and they just don't know what to do with it. Yeah, I'm curious, any further thoughts on that before we jump over to the addiction? No, I wish I had an answer solution for people, but it is just hard sometimes. Yeah, it is hard. And I think I remember hearing anger is the response to a real or perceived injustice. Yeah. And I think there's something so good there. And I think sometimes it's so confusing for people like us because the way that

people talk about broken families and divorce, they don't really talk about the fact that there's an injustice going on there. They talk about the fact that like, well, it's for the best. There's actually a good thing on some levels. I hate it's for the best so much. Tell me more. Oh my goodness. Every child with a divorce knows that, you know, it's better for your parents. Okay. It's for the best. You know, it's better for you guys. No, it's not. No, it might be better in some ways, but.

there's a real loss. It's almost like a death, you know? So every time I hear it's for the best, just, I nod politely, but I, you know, just move on. Yeah. It's very, not triggering. don't like that word, but just brings back memories to hear that. No, a hundred percent. And I think, you know, sometimes this well intentioned people often I've found as well as people trying to like console your, I don't know, make sense of something that's painful. But, ⁓ yeah, I've, found that that was just so unhelpful and

demeaning in a lot of ways. Yes. you said, you never walk into a funeral and be like, well, it's for the best. It's best. It's like, gosh, that's dark. So no, no, I totally hear you there. And even in the cases, which some people might be thinking of where it's necessary, it's truly necessary because of real abuse and violence, things like that, the danger of death that happens in some situations, it's still a loss, like you said, because it's not the ideal it's supposed to be. Right.

even if it's the better of two really crappy options, it's still something that I think deserve to be grieved. It's a serious loss, like you said. Right. The addiction, so as much as you want to share, what led you to it? How did that start? And what kept you coming back? What need was that filling? So I was exposed to pornography when I was 11. A classmate had said the word lesbian and I had no idea what it meant. And so I went to Google and I found out what lesbian meant very quickly.

What kept me coming back? think, so I was sexually abused when I was younger by my grandfather. So I think that was part of it, trying to reconcile that. And what kept me coming back? I think it was just a coping mechanism for boredom, for rage, for sadness. It made me feel good about myself in the moment. Felt like I was doing something not harmful because society says it's not harmful. So I was.

I was engaging in my sexuality in a very twisted way, but it was the only way I could because of my traumatic background. just, I couldn't even hug people. Like it was, it was bad. So I couldn't hug people, but behind closed doors, there was this horrible addiction that was happening. And after a certain point, you just come back because you're addicted. You don't even have a motivation. It just becomes part of your neural pathways. So that probably happened pretty quickly, but yeah, broken home plus abuse plus, you know.

just trying to find an escape. Yeah, okay, 100%. And I was exposed at the same age and, whoo, no, my heart breaks for you too with the abuse. I'm so sorry for that. I am curious, so you're 11 that lasts into high school, I imagine. And was there a low point that you hit where you were just kind of ready to give up or you hit rock bottom and realized, my goodness, this is controlling my life? Yeah, I think, I always knew I had a problem, but I think...

I had given up on trying to fix it. I basically threw up my hands and said, this addiction is going to be with me for my whole life. So why bother trying to fight it? It was only in meeting my now husband and eventually converting to Catholicism that I realized, this is a sin and I need to get rid of it. So I had no plan though to get rid of it. I had no idea what to do. So I started like calling off sources of my addiction and that helped a little bit. the only thing that, so I would like,

delete apps that were pathways to that addiction. had ⁓ a bunch of notes that had explicit content on them, so I would delete those. So I started pairing back, but as people who are addicted know that there's always a way to get back to what you want to do. So really what solved it was basically a Hail Mary prayer of like, God, can't do this alone. I can't figure this out. Help me. And I was

I would call this a miracle because I have no other explanation for it, but when I converted in 2021, I put down pornography and never picked it up again. So after I had the Plessis Sacrament for the first time, I just stopped watching pornography wholesale. And I know that might not be relatable for some people and might be hard to hear for others because they want that miracle for themselves, but for me it was just grace. It's beautiful. over five years or about five years.

It was a decade. It was a decade of addiction. Okay. So, it lasted, but then you've been free since that time. And you don't have to go into this, but I know yet to anyone listening, I think one of the most tempting things when you find freedom is if you ever were to fall back, it can be extremely demoralizing. Something like, ⁓ I've fallen there. Then I, there's no hope for me, but I just, anyone.

who maybe finds himself in that situation. Like, I just want to say there's so much hope, even in that situation where you've maybe broken free and you fall back, that you can find freedom again. yeah, would you say anything like anything else to someone listening right now who maybe either is stuck in their kind of initial addiction or maybe did have a relapse and feels a lot of shame? I would say that shame is not super helpful in changing your behavior. You know, a little guilt can be good to...

have you come back to Jesus and apologize, but shame just keeps you in that spiral. Seek help. I know for women it's especially hard because we think this is a very male sin. There's a lot of resources for men and women don't get talked about nearly enough with this sin, but Magdala Ministries is wonderful and ⁓ they have small groups for women who are struggling with the same thing. So I highly recommend them. So yeah, there's hope out there. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Love Magdala.

We'll link to some of the podcast episodes we've done on this topic for both men and women. ⁓ because yeah, it, you know, it's a human problem. Like he said, it's not just a male or female problem. And I think it's one of the things that I learned from J. Stringer. Have you read any of J. Stringer's content? man. It's so good. So he, J. Stringer is a therapist who kind of specializes in this area of sexual compulsion and addiction. And his first book, he studied about 4,000 men and women who struggled with sexual compulsions or addictions we're talking like.

porn use, masturbation, infidelity. And one of the wild things he found was that the type of trauma someone endured could be predicted by their porn searches and sexual fantasies. Wow. And in other words, was like this whole, there was this whole mosaic, there's this whole pattern to it that they realized like, none of this is random. And I think what happens with so many of us who've struggled in this area is that we think like, we're the only one. We think that no one could relate. We think that, you know, there's no hope for us. When in reality it's like,

Actually, it's super common for people from broken families to struggle with this. Dr. Patrick Carnes, I have said this on the podcast before, Dr. Patrick Carnes, another expert in this area of sexual compulsion, he found that 87 % of people with a sex addiction come from a broken family. I believe that. That's nine out of 10. So it's like, if you are dealing with this and your family was really dysfunctional, broken, parents got divorced, it's like, makes sense. And so I think there's like a lot of freedom to, you know, to hearing that, wow, it's actually predictable and it's likely, but.

Thankfully you don't have to stay there and that's where some of those resources that we'll mention or that we'll link to in the show notes can be incredibly helpful. I do believe that freedom is possible. What Jay Stringer basically says is like, our path to freedom is actually through the specific sexual struggles that we have. not sometimes we're gonna like shy away from them. They're bad, they're dirty, they're shameful. But he says, no, you actually need to learn to listen to your lust. He's not suggesting that we fall into lust. That's not what he's saying. But he's saying basically it's just a symptom.

It's just like pinpoints where deeper healing is needed. So not to go on a rant, but I found it really helpful and a lot of people like us have as well. So we'll link to all that in the show notes. Jay came on to talk about that book, but is there anything that you would add to any of that? Yeah, I think I would just treat your addiction with curiosity instead of revulsion. So porn satisfies a need. You just have to figure out what that need is for you. So if it's connection, if it's love, if it's acceptance.

if it's a self-esteem boost. That's all good to know so you can find those good things elsewhere. So just be curious about your addiction. Don't be afraid of it. That's where the devil wants to keep you, I think, is fear and shame. And yeah, that's all I'll say. For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault,

guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face, cope in healthy ways instead of falling into bad habits, improve their relationship with their parents, navigate the holidays and other life events, and build healthy relationships and so much more. One Amazon review said this, this book is packed full of really practical help. If you come from a broken family, or even if you don't, but you love someone that does, this book is so helpful. I can't recommend this enough.

By the way, it's a quick read and it doesn't need to be read cover to cover. Since it's in question and answer format, you can just read one of the questions and one of the answers. And so if you want to join the thousands of people who've gotten a copy, just go to restoredministry.com slash books to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restoredministry.com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes. So good. And one final thing to just kind of mind was just how porn in particular can be a super stimulant. So similar to like a street brawl, it's to the point where

you are going to have to go through a period of withdrawal. And so it's going to be like really difficult and the habit you created, like you said, is going to just want to pull you back again and again. And so that's where I think there's so much wisdom in what you said about like, just don't do it alone. It's just such a fool's errand to try and you'll look up years later and be like, well, haven't made any progress, even though I wanted to save my pride and not ask for help. Was there anything else in terms of like struggles with emotions or habits that you wanted to mention that was part of your story that we haven't?

touched on. I think when you mentioned all the big ones, like the acting out sexually and then the judgment and rage against other people, but that was all kind of part and parcel of what made Autumn. Yeah, Maybe let's go back to the anger for a second there. Was there any other shift in you that helped you deal with the anger toward particular people? Was there anything you learned or a transformational moment that helped you realize that maybe the anger is normal to feel, but what do do with that? I think part of it is just healed by time.

distance from the events helped. I went to college and was away from my parents and wasn't in their house anymore. That was a good healing distance for me. Then seeing my younger brother, this is probably one of the saddest parts of my story, think, but my younger brother is six years younger than me and he couldn't escape the court system. He was having to go back and forth between my mother and my father's house. At the time he was so young, he couldn't understand why I was angry at my father, so he was angry at me for not.

coming to the house with them and hanging out with dad all buddy buddy. Seeing him get older and progressively get more angry at my father for what he had done was devastating. But seeing him feel that rage helped cool my rage, if that makes sense. I had to be his oracle in the desert when he was needing to go to someone who understood. We couldn't both be angry, it wouldn't be productive. So I had to process my emotions, journal it out, talk to friends and family and

So I could be there for him. So I think that helped me turn down the temperature a little bit, was seeing his struggle. It'd be kind of a counterweight to his anger. Okay. That makes some sense. You mentioned writing has been helpful for you. You're a great writer. I think. Yeah, no, no, you are. I was really impressed with your writing ability. Yeah. Talk more about that. How has that helped you heal and kind of process your emotions? I think journaling is really good for some people, myself included, just to get out the things that you probably shouldn't say.

⁓ My mouth gets me in trouble most often. I think journaling is good for me. So I just wrote down every emotion I was feeling just to get it out because if I kept it in, I would just get really depressed. So that was helpful for me is just writing and channeling that energy into something creative that could be painting for you or running or working out really hard or some other mentally stimulating activity to make sure you don't unleash that on your friends. But that journaling was that for me.

Cool, beautiful. Writing has been really helpful for me. A friend of mine told me recently that people who've endured traumatic events in their lives are more likely to get into endurance sports. I don't know all the psychology behind it, but it kind of made sense to me, like you said, that could be a good outlet in a lot of ways. And I've definitely found that moving your body is incredibly helpful as well. Good stuff. You said you kind of escaped the court system and you didn't have to do the visitation similar to at least your younger brother, right?

I remember you saying that you felt really conflicted in that though, that his brothers were going to be with dad, but you out of self-protection just knew you couldn't do that. Why did you feel so conflicted and talk me through where you were at that point? I mean, I still don't know if I made the right choice sometimes. Basically, my older brother has autism, so he's not fully aware of everything that happens. And my younger brother was so much younger.

my dad was bringing his girlfriends to the house and things like that. I, yeah, you already know where this is going. So they were mean to my brothers and I couldn't do anything about it. I was the only one who like saw what my dad was doing. If that makes sense, like saw through all the BS and was watching him to make sure he was on good behavior. And I think he knew that, which is why he accepted me not wanting to come to his house because it served his

you know, his benefits. So I didn't go because I wanted to be a source of positivity for my brothers. And I tried going back and forth a couple of times and it was just incredibly damaging to my mental health. And I was like, I need to be alive for them. So that's more important than me being there in this case. It's still tough though. I mean, I don't know if you have siblings, but this is like really hard, a really hard choice to make, think. So hard, yeah.

No, I remember feeling guilty as well when I got to the point where I didn't have to do that stuff and they still had to and gosh, it's the worst, especially when you know things are unstable, tumultuous and they might be in a situation, which happened, it did happen where it's like, goodness, I wish it was there. You mentioned just this desire to not live anymore, to give up. What happened there? I don't know. I think part of it was like a hormonal thing that's common for women is once you

you know, start your menstrual period, your emotions just kind of are up and down for a few years. So that didn't help because that's exactly what my parents decided to get divorced. Yeah, not good. So I think part of it was hormonal. Part of it was just, I don't know, it felt like death basically. Like, I think this says, it says this in the literature, but sometimes a parent dying is actually better than a divorce because

your parent can die and still be this like paragon of virtue for you. You can still miss them. You can still talk about them lovingly. Whereas divorce, it's just more complex. So it felt like a death on steroids. So I just didn't see a way forward for me to be happy. I thought, well, I'm just gonna end up like them. You know, I'm gonna be this bitter person for the rest of my life and be angry and who's gonna wanna, who's gonna wanna deal with that? So I think all that together just made me not wanna.

do life anymore. I hear you. And was it just your brothers who kind of kept you from going there? Were there other forces as well? Thankfully, I was baptized when I was nine. So I think that was part of part of it. was the Holy Spirit just withholding my hand. But I never had a concrete plan. I was just I was just tired. I was just tired. I didn't I didn't have an active will to die, but I didn't have an active will to live. But I had friends, which is key. I had friends that were

from whole families and people who cared about me and would notice if I was gone. So I couldn't play that game of, no one would care. I knew that was a lie. So for their sake, I stayed alive. It's a heart wrenching place to be. I've sat with people close to me who were like at that point and yeah, you can just tell like, like you said it so perfectly, the look in their eyes, it's like they don't necessarily want to die, but they just don't want to live with the pain they're going through. And it's an understandable place to be. And so it's beautiful that you were able to

pull out of that and I definitely can see the impact of grace and all that. But really beautiful. What did you learn from your friends and their families that were healthy that maybe helped you get to a healthier place and even build your own marriage? I think I've had the luck to have exposure to a lot of wonderful father figures. So it proved to me that there were good men and that they loved their wives and could love their wives. So that was helpful for me believing that could be possible for someone like me. And then

I learned from my friends, this was a harder lesson to learn, but eventually they were like, Autumn, can't trauma dump on us anymore. And I was like, wow. At first I was hurt, I'm so hurt by that. But over time I was like, you know what, they're right. Like me rehashing this over and over again is not making it better. I need to like do something with this pain. So that's how know you have a real friend when they're like, ⁓ enough, we love you, but enough. So that was good for me to learn to not make the divorce and my

trauma from it, my whole personality. Like there were other parts of me that were important and not just that my parents hated each other. So. Totally. No, and I think it's even something I worry a lot about running, hosting this podcast and running this ministry or nonprofit behind it. It's like even the term child of divorce, I've said this before, I like don't really like cause it's just meant to describe an experience you had not become an identity.

And think sometimes we like take it on as an identity. So you said you were able to kind of look beyond that and move through it. I know we're gonna get to this shortly, but I'm curious, like, where did you go with your trauma and your pain, if not to your friends? Journaling continued to help. And then really diving into philosophy and faith helped me. Thinking about thinking, finding good answers to the problem of evil. That was huge for me because the problem of evil was my life.

Why would a good God let this happen to me? And so philosophy and reading C.S. Lewis and reading really good authors like that helped me process mentally and intellectually that evil does not mean there is not a good God, evil does not mean that you deserve it, those kinds of things. So I think philosophy helped a lot for me personally. Beautiful. No, why do you think that worked so well? mean, in addition to like the problem of

pain and evil, like that's huge, obviously, to figure that out or to come to the realization that there can be a good God and still have suffering in our lives. But yeah, why did that help? I'm really curious. I think it broke me out of my like mental prison a little bit. thinking about thinking is good for you. It's like math for your brain. Well, instead of thinking about my pain and how sad I was about myself and how everyone else sucked and all this stuff, I could direct all of that energy into thinking about higher things than myself.

So it took me out of my own mental prison here. So I think that was a good thing for me. Yeah. Okay. Expanded your kind of small world to the bigger world. love that. A mentor challenged me in a similar way. He challenged me to find someone who was lonelier and struggling more than me and just help them, like love them. And that was really kind of eye-opening realizing like, whoop, there are people who are struggling more than me. And ⁓ so I think it

helped me realize that, you know, my pain wasn't the only pain in the world and even admits the pain, can still do good. You can still choose to love and help people. So I can definitely relate with you a lot on that. So we're almost to the end of our time together. I was curious, just want to touch briefly on your relationship with your parents. So you said that you, you know, you got to a point where even given all the hurt and anger that you felt toward your father, you were able to forgive him. What made it motivated you to actually forgive him? A lot of people.

don't go that route, they hold on to the unforgiveness. What motivated you to forgive him and maybe what were some of the practical things you did to actually forgive him? I think forgiveness is more for me, you know, like holding on to that poison. I've heard it said that like unforgiveness is holding on to poison and expecting the other person to die. And it's true. Like it was ruining my life being that resentful and angry all the time. And I was ready to move on. It had been years since the events took place and

I knew my dad and I were probably never gonna agree on what happened. So there was really no point in rehashing it. It would just be like banging my head against the wall. So I could either accept both my parents, frankly, as they were and not expect them to be the perfect parents that I probably would never have. It's kind of sad, but it's also like you have to accept what you were given a little bit and look for father figures elsewhere and in the church and...

in your families and friends because yeah, sometimes you're not going to get what you want. Practically, how did I forgive him? I wrote a letter forgiving him just for me. And over time, I slowly, you know, opened myself up to conversations with him again. Now that took years, so, you know, don't rush yourself if you don't feel ready. But I chose to invite him to my wedding, even though my therapist at the time said it was a terrible idea.

Once my granddaughter, or once my daughter was born, granddaughter, I told him I was pregnant. I allowed him to send me gifts for the baby. I invited him to her baptism. Events that had other people, so it wasn't so intense, like just one-on-one with him, because that always made me nervous, still does. But if there was an event with other people, I figured, how can I include him in my life, even if it's at a healthy distance? So that's basically what I've done. And I think it's...

been fruitful. And I also use it as an evangelization opportunity. He's not Catholic. So I feel like every time we see each other, I'm like, Hey, have you consented the church? So yeah. love them. Like even if there's with those boundaries, like which love requires health boundaries. So I love that. Well, it's been so good talking. You had two final questions. One, how is your life better now? Give us a little bit of a contrast. We kind of went through a lot of the mug and a lot of the hard times you've been through, but tell me the good things about your life. How is your life better now that you've

found a lot of healing and growth. Oh my goodness, my life's completely different. My marriage is wonderful. We have a little house together in the rural countryside. It's wonderful. I have a daughter who's amazing and just inspires me every day to be a child again with her. My relationship with my in-laws is good. My relationship with my mom is pretty good, all things considered. My relationship with my dad's getting better. I'm writing. I have a job I like. It's completely different. I just don't.

hold all that negative emotion in my head anymore. And I take myself lightly a little bit nowadays, which is good. So good. Adam, so good to speak with you. Really grateful for you sharing your story and, being so vulnerable. I know it's going to help a lot of people. I want to give you the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you offer to maybe the younger you listening right now, especially if they fear becoming like their parents, maybe repeating their parents' story in their own life? What final encouragement or advice would you give?

tools out there that can help you not become like your parents. However, your parents are still within you and there are good things about your parents, even if it's hard to see that right now. But you are the good things about your parents. You are. So you can take those good things and maximize them and minimize the bad things. And that's your choice. You know, there's a lot of tools out there. There's ministries like this to help you kind of cope with the trauma from this event in your life.

there's friends you can have, beautiful relationships are possible, just all things are possible with God and with an openness to good things. It won't always be this bad. And if it is this bad for a long time, God's always with you in that as well.

That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help and keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Why Affairs Happen, and How to Build a Faithful Marriage | Doug Hinderer : #176

When a parent cheats, it doesn’t just wound the marriage. It can wound the children too.

For many young people from broken families, infidelity creates a terrifying fear: What if I get cheated on too? Or worse, what if I become the one who cheats?

In this episode, Joey talks with marriage and family therapist Doug Hinderer about how affairs happen, why betrayal damages a child’s ability to trust, and how young people from broken families can avoid repeating their parents’ mistakes.

They discuss:

• Why affairs often begin long before anything physical happens

• How infidelity affects children, even years later

• Why love feels unsafe after betrayal

• The role of forgiveness in healing from a parent’s affair

• How to talk about the fear of infidelity in dating or marriage

• The three habits that help build a faithful, lasting marriage

• Why you are not doomed to repeat your parents’ story

If you’re afraid of being cheated on, afraid of becoming your parents, or unsure if lasting love is even possible after what you witnessed growing up, this episode is for you.

Restored Resources
https://restoredministry.com/resources

It’s Not Your Fault | Restored Book
https://restoredministry.com/books

Happy Marriage for Life | Doug Hinderer
https://www.happymarriageforlife.com/

Marriage Unhindered | Relevant Radio
https://relevantradio.com/listen/our-shows/marriage-unhindered/

How to Forgive | International Forgiveness Institute
https://internationalforgiveness.com/how-to-forgive/

“Impossible” Marriages Redeemed: They Didn’t End the Story in the Middle | Leila Miller
https://www.leilamiller.net/impossiblemarriagesredeemedpdf

“Impossible” Marriages Redeemed | Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Impossible-Marriages-Redeemed-Didnt-Middle-ebook/dp/B086FS9XCW

Doug Hinderer’s email
doug@relevantradio.com

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

speaker-1 (00:00)

Autumn, welcome to the show. So good to have you here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk with you. You've been through so much. You have struggled with things like depression, even struggles with suicide or ideation at least. You have struggled a lot in relationships you've shared, whether it's your relationship with your parents or romantic relationships. But you didn't let that crush you. You worked through so many things. You're in a better spot today. And I'm so excited to see kind how you went from where you were to where you are today. But starting out, I wanted to kind of go back to the beginning. You were 14 years old.

when your parents shared the news that they were getting divorced, but you weren't surprised. Why weren't you surprised and what led your family to that position of your parents getting divorced? I wasn't surprised because the tension in my house was very palpable. My parents were speaking to each other, but weren't hugging, weren't kissing, showing any sorts of affection. And my father was sleeping upstairs in the guest room. And I remember asking my mother why, and she said,

Well, he gets up early on the weekends to, he was training for triathlons at the time. So he gets up early, early on the weekends. I don't want to get woken up. And I just didn't buy that. I think I was a little too old to buy that line. So that was kind of the first inclination. And then I actually met the woman he was cheating with. And so when my mom broke the news to me that my father had committed adultery, I immediately said, it's this woman. And.

I pulled up the picture of her because he introduced us to her and I said, it's her. So I think on some subliminal level, I knew that their relationship was a little more than friendly. I didn't know the real start of the story was when my brother was just born. So this was about 2006. My father had previously committed adultery with his secretary at his workplace. And I did not know about that affair, but my mother forgave him for that affair and they moved on.

there was just a pattern of infidelity in the relationship and my mother and father tried to work things out, but there just didn't seem to be any road to reconciliation. So that was when they decided to divorce. And there was a point at which you realized that the infidelity that you saw, you know, with your dad didn't start with your parents. There were signs of it in previous generations. Yeah, take me to that moment when you kind of realized, this goes deeper than just my parents' marriage. I think

The fact that on the grandparent level there had been cheating as well. My dad's dad cheated on his wife when he was in the military and even left the family for a few, maybe not a year, but a couple months. So my dad had seen that and unfortunately fell into that pattern. But it also was on my mother's side as well. Her grandmother was cheated on repeatedly by her grandfather. And so it kind of ran through both sides. So.

Thankfully, my mom was very open about our past and it wasn't like a shameful thing. was, you know, these people made mistakes, but they're still our ancestors. So I did know about that. And I think that helped me kind of cope a little, little bit knowing that, you know, it's easy to fall into the sin. And my dad did not get the best example growing up. He didn't see a faithful relationship. So without having that example, it was hard for him to replicate it in his own marriage. when did your mom share that news about your grandparents? I'm curious.

⁓ I can't remember a time not knowing. think I was always kind of curious about people I'd never met. And so I just asked all sorts of questions and she was always very open with me and not judgmental, but just letting me into the fact that there were good things about our ancestors and bad things. And these were some of the bad things. Okay. Now that makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like you, yeah, like you said, you were curious and it wasn't this thing where she was kind of like cheering it with you that overwhelmed you. Okay. Yeah. Now that makes sense. I've heard.

kind of the opposite side of the story. That's why I was asking where, you know, parents ended up sharing and dumping, which I know we'll get to a little bit later, but dumping maybe information that kids don't really need to know, at least not at that point in their life. And so I'm glad to hear that at least given this topic, it was done in a way that wasn't overwhelming to you. Yes, that came later, the dumping, unfortunately. We're getting into, but on this note of infidelity, I'm curious, how did

you know, the families, the paths and fidelity with grandparents, and specifically your father's cheating, impact how you viewed men, love, relationships, and especially this idea of like being faithful. It seemed unattainable to me. Most of my friends, it seemed at the time, looking back, I know this wasn't the case, but it seemed like everyone's parents I knew were breaking up, getting divorced, having all sorts of issues. So I just thought that this wasn't possible for me. Like it was, it was in my blood somehow that I couldn't be faithful.

So that was really, really tough to kind of get over that fear and realize that the cycle can stop with me and it doesn't have to be a generational thing that is like in my DNA or something like that. So it sounds like you've wrestled with that a bit. I'm curious. I've dealt with similar questions and I'm curious, was there a specific moment when you kind of came to that realization that, you know, this doesn't have to be me in my story? There's certainly that fear, right? And I hear this with a lot of people, I guess it's like,

we're really afraid of repeating our parents' story. Because we've seen that. We've seen, you know, kind of like with the grandparents that started there, went to your parents, you know, not blaming them, but there's certainly this trend that you see that's hard to ignore. And so, yeah, I'm curious if there was a specific moment where you kind of realized like, no, this doesn't have to be me. I think in preparing to be married to my now husband, a lot of these fears came up, especially in like the engagement and pre-engagement period. I think I had to just honestly take a leap of faith and

recognized that he came, like look at the objective facts. He came from a good whole family where there was no divorce present. That was healing for me to at least have one of us have a whole family. So I saw a good example of marriage from his parents. I had many examples of good marriages around me. So I knew it was theoretically possible, even if it wasn't for my parents. And I think the knowledge that helps me the most actually is that my parents were frankly just incompatible with each other and both had very traumatic upbringings.

And in comparison, my upbringing was more positive, not saying there was nothing bad, but more positive. So I had just better tools to use to resolve conflicts. And that coupled with the good examples that I saw coupled with just God, ⁓ you know, having Catholicism in my life and having the blessed sacrament and confession and just having those, just having the tools to be a good partner, I think helps me take the leap and get married.

No, I love them. I felt similar in a lot of ways, like looking back at my parents. I love my parents and you know, I know they would admit that there were mistakes that they made. I clearly see that, but still love them of course. And in a lot of ways I've come to this place of compassion where it's like, man, they had to do so much with so little. And I feel like, you know, it sounds like we're the same in that we were given so much. had people in our lives, especially for me, and we'll get to this in your story, like mentors and people who kind of stepped into fill those roles, maybe where mom and dad didn't quite live up to what.

I need it. so, so yeah, so it's like looking back at it almost feels unfair. It's like, I, yeah, I've been so blessed. There's been so much good given to you feel the same. think it is kind of unfair to expect a perfect marriage from two people who grew up in very broken homes and in a very, they grew up almost in a cult. That's a whole nother story, but that whole situation was super damaging to them. I, yeah, I just can't imagine. So I try to imagine my parents as the ages that I.

see them as, which is teenagers. There were certain events in their life that didn't let them move past that. So when I think of my mom as a teenager who's struggling and has abusive parents and my dad and his situation with his mom leaning on him emotionally, I mean, it was just a mess on both accounts. So I try to think of them as teenagers and that helps me to have a lot of compassion for them. That's a good tactic. And as you know, before everyone listening, that's one of the effects of trauma. It can literally keep you like stuck.

developmentally in the past, or at least when you're triggered in certain ways, you literally act as like an 11 year old or a 14 year old or whatever age you might be kind of forced back into. And so I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you just said, but I'm curious, was there anything else specifically in your view of maybe men that kind of bled from your dad's behavior into your relationships? thought that every fight would end in the dissolution of the relationship. So I put up and shut up. I let...

one partner kind of take advantage of me because I thought that's what you had to do to be liked and stay in the relationship. So I kind of modeled what my mom had to do to keep the relationship together, if that makes sense. And I couldn't have a voice because my mom didn't have a voice. And at the same time, this resentment of men just was simmering under the surface. You know, they're not faithful. They can't be faithful.

Is it even worth it? Like, is marriage worth it? I don't even want to have kids. You know, it just all felt like too much of a risk because men seemed so, you know, wishy washy and like you couldn't depend on them because I couldn't depend on my dad. So that was kind of the underlying belief under all of that angst. Yeah. And it's true in some situations, like you experienced with your dad and, you know, sadly in our culture, it's like a really common thing for men to be exactly what you described. but I'm really curious. So you ended up with a guy at one point who

really mimicked your dad in so many ways. I remember in the article I read, you said, Freud would be proud. So just kind of recreating that same environment relationship that you had, you know, with your father, but you didn't stay there, which I really admire. I'm curious, like you came to a point where like, I need to break up with this guy. he? And I'm curious what changed in you and maybe take us to that moment when you're like, this has to stop.

I think COVID was a point for a lot of people to figure out what they needed to change in their life. For us, I was under the sad illusion that people who disagreed on very fundamental issues and beliefs could still make it work in a relationship. so we disagreed about very, very many things. At that time, I was still an agnostic, so we should have on paper worked well together. But at a certain point in about April, 2020, I realized our beliefs about

this pandemic and really everything are completely different and they cannot be reconciled. I just had this one little thought in my head of, want to raise my children in the faith. I was agnostic, so that makes no sense. But I think I wanted my children to have a structure, even if I didn't believe in that structure. That was a non-starter with this particular boyfriend. That was it. Breaking point. I'm curious, was there a point ever

in your relationships where you were just like, you mentioned this a little bit before, but you were just like, why even try? Like, I'm not even gonna go down the route of love and marriage. I'm not even gonna, you said you didn't even want kids at one point. Yeah, like tell me a little bit about that experience and how you came around to the point of like, no, I think this might be worth it. After that relationship dissolved, I resigned myself to be a cat lady for like the rest of my life. It was very dramatic. I'm sure you would make a great cat lady out of me. I was 20, I mean.

There was no reason to be this dramatic, but I was ready for it to be over because I was like, that was a year and a half of my life. I can't, and my judgment is so bad. Like I couldn't trust my own judgment. I felt like if I dated that guy and thought that was love, then I need to have a reality check. So I think I was just ready to write it all off and give up because it is a lot of effort to be in a relationship and it's very vulnerable and being in love is very vulnerable.

And so you don't want to get hurt again. And I was tired of being hurt by that point, especially with my parents' situation. And then my now husband comes into my life and I'm like, oh, gosh, okay. Love makes no sense. I love this guy, even though I am so scared of that, that I do love him, but I couldn't stop it. You were scared. What were you scared of exactly? I we're kind of talking about all of this, maybe going back a little bit, but yeah, what scared you the most maybe? The first one that came to mind is rejection. Just not.

getting into a relationship and marriage, which I believed and still believed at that time is permanent and realizing, oh, this person doesn't love you and that you don't love this person. That was my personal nightmare. Cause my parents, that's, that was my parents story. They liked each other, but they probably shouldn't have gotten married. You know, they just weren't compatible. So I feared that. feared that. A hundred percent. My mom shared at one point that this isn't maybe too much, but my mom shared at one point that, um,

Yeah, my dad and her didn't have the healthiest relationship. And I think they both would admit that at some level before they were married. And I think there were even people in their lives like telling them like, no, you're like not a good idea. Don't do this. And for one reason or another, they just kind of pushed ahead, kind of fell their way into marriage. yeah, and then it led to just a really unhealthy place, unfortunately. Yeah, I know that there's so much to say on the relationship end. What about your husband made you believe that like a man

could be different than everything you experienced before and that he could be faithful in particular. He could apologize. Wow. I mean, that was huge. He could say, I'm sorry and mean it. That was a huge thing for me. He was upset when he made me upset. It wasn't all about him. We resolved our conflicts with words. All of that gave me hope that we could make a marriage work.

And he just loved me. Like he, he cared about me. He cared about my family. He would go out of his way to do things for me. He drove an hour and 30 minutes, like every week to visit me. So yeah. And he had, he had good parents. Like that is so key. Cause I was, I was like, I can't be in a relationship with someone else who has divorced parents. know some people can do that, but I just, I needed a guy from a good household and he was that. So that was nice too. Yeah. No, I don't think you should feel.

guilty or anything about that. know sometimes that could be a little triggering for people, but I think it's, you know yourself and you knew that's what you needed. I have friends who both came from, you know, divorced families and they've made it work and they've, from everything I could tell, a really beautiful marriage. Yeah, but I know others where they're like, no, that is absolutely a requirement of mine. So, so yeah, I think that's, that could be really wise. I love that what you said about your husband though. And I think, you know, one of the most important decisions we can make, let me just spend some time here, is um,

on choosing a spouse. so I, you one of the things that I like to say is you can tell kind of where someone's priorities are by how they spend their time and their money. And if they spend their time like and their money just on themselves, uh, that that's, think a red flag, but if they're doing that for others, like you said, your family, for you, I think that's a really good and beautiful thing. I love the fact that your husband is humble. That's a really beautiful quality. think people should look for, because on one level, as you know,

It's the foundation of all the virtues. But it also, like you said, so well, it gives you the ability to apologize, to admit when you're wrong, which I'm sure you've noticed, like it happens a lot within marriage. I certainly have noticed that. So yeah, I'm so curious, like, was there a list of qualities you were adamant about in addition to wanting someone from, you know, a healthy family? If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story.

Reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level and makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, they're less anxious, they're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the same path that you're on but a bit far behind you.

to just hear your advice and to hear your story since you're going through things that you've been through. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restoredministry.com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restoredministry.com slash story, or just by clicking the link in the show notes. Your list of requirements gets shorter and shorter as you get older. ⁓ I wanted someone who wanted children, smart, funny.

Ideally, caring gets along with my friends and family. That's very important. He kind of fit all those boxes. Attractive to me doesn't necessarily mean attractive to everybody, but attractive to me. Ambitious. I love music. That was a non-negotiable. I was like, I need someone to love music with me, otherwise they're not going to understand me as a person. Yeah. Love that. No, I like the mix of the objectives. You got to have these and then.

these like more subjective to you, but really important and still non-negotiables. That's really, really good. I did make the list of like the qualities I wanted, but I remember one of the things that really attracted me to my wife was just her selflessness. Kind like your husband, I noticed that she just had a heart for other people. Like she's a nurse and so clearly like her job literally requires her to care for others. She, you know, was involved in like ministry at our college campus. So it was like this kind of obvious thing. Like, yeah, she's clearly like time and money. Like she's...

proof that she's putting it into that. So that was one of the things that really attracted me. What would you say to maybe a woman like you were at the time who maybe doesn't know what she wants to look for in this spouse? Like obviously there's all these different qualities. What are some, yeah, what are maybe some of the big ones in addition to what we mentioned of like someone who's humble, can they admit that they're wrong? Like, yeah, what advice you give on that? I'm curious. think the biggest thing for young women is you want to be with the guy who wants to be with you. It sounds so simple, but I can't think of how many times

If you have to ask yourself, what's he thinking about? Does he really want to hang out with me? Why isn't he answering this text message? He just might not be the one. He might not be actually into you. But I think women, kind of like on some level crave that uncertainty maybe. It's hard to describe, but if a man is not excited to see you, wanting to see you, sad when you leave, happy when you arrive, like you just need to, you need to cut your losses, I think, and walk away.

That's probably one of the big ones. And someone who shares your values. Don't waste your time with a guy who you don't agree with on the fundamentals because in marriage, you don't want to spend your time arguing about the fundamentals. You want that to be something you're aligned on. So whether that's like kids or are we going to homeschool or what church are we going to go to? Those are big issues that you just don't want to about every day.

Right? marriage is hard enough as it is. Like if you add those like big wedges between you, my goodness, I don't know how couples make it there. And if it's okay, I just wanted to throw in, you know, in addition to those things you mentioned, what the researchers say is there's like kind of five big areas of life where you need to be on the same page. And you mentioned God, parenting, you know, how are you going to raise your kids? How many kids are you going to have? Or just an openness to life. Money being another one. A healthy relationship with your in-laws, being able to set boundaries there.

And then intimacy, especially sexual intimacy, you before marriage, but even within marriage, like having boundaries there and having like a plan being on the same page with what that looks like. And yeah, from what I've been told, if you're on the same page in those five areas, your chance of having a happy, know, successful marriage just shoots way up. So I love your advice. It's good. I want to transition a little bit if that's okay. So you had mentioned that you struggled with, you know, depression. There was a lot of anger, some suicidal ideation, but some of the things that

I think two of the things that stuck out to me the most in reading your story was the anger and the addiction. And so if it's okay, I wanted to go into those little bits. Maybe let's start with the anger. You were angry at your parents, at God. What were you angry about and what did you learn to do with that anger? I was angry about everything. Angry that my picture-perfect life had been taken away. We had to sell my childhood home because divorce costs money and it's so expensive.

So we had to sell my childhood home and leave it and move into a very, we were poor for many years is basically what I'm trying to get at. And that was really, really hard, especially in my suburb that is kind of upper middle class, I would say. So I just felt shame and that turned into anger. I was angry at my dad for thinking that he did nothing wrong. I think if we had a conversation today, I don't know how much.

self-reflection has happened, I hope more, but at the time he was convinced he did nothing wrong in the relationship. So that made me angry. I was angry at my mom for filing for divorce, even though on some level I knew it was justified. It was just very complex. And so I was just angry all the time and I didn't really do anything with it until college. So it kind of just simmered and turned into bitterness and resentment and judgmental thoughts of others. And that kind of continued.

for years. So I did not handle it productively at the time. think that's a common experience. I know I experienced that too. I remember when I learned the news that my parents were getting divorced, I just felt so much anger. Like I wanted the people involved to die. And I was a love-neural kid at the time and it was just like so pent up. And then I think over time, I'm curious if you would agree with this, yeah, we just learned to kind of hide it because we know that rocking the boat and adding more drama to an already dramatic situation is not probably going to help.

at least in some situations. Some people do act out and kind of cry for attention in that way. But I think there's a lot of people who care a lot of anger and they just don't know what to do with it. Yeah, I'm curious, any further thoughts on that before we jump over to the addiction? No, I wish I had an answer solution for people, but it is just hard sometimes. Yeah, it is hard. And I think I remember hearing anger is the response to a real or perceived injustice. Yeah. And I think there's something so good there. And I think sometimes it's so confusing for people like us because the way that

people talk about broken families and divorce, they don't really talk about the fact that there's an injustice going on there. They talk about the fact that like, well, it's for the best. There's actually a good thing on some levels. I hate it's for the best so much. Tell me more. Oh my goodness. Every child with a divorce knows that, you know, it's better for your parents. Okay. It's for the best. You know, it's better for you guys. No, it's not. No, it might be better in some ways, but.

there's a real loss. It's almost like a death, you know? So every time I hear it's for the best, just, I nod politely, but I, you know, just move on. Yeah. It's very, not triggering. don't like that word, but just brings back memories to hear that. No, a hundred percent. And I think, you know, sometimes this well intentioned people often I've found as well as people trying to like console your, I don't know, make sense of something that's painful. But, ⁓ yeah, I've, found that that was just so unhelpful and

demeaning in a lot of ways. Yes. you said, you never walk into a funeral and be like, well, it's for the best. It's best. It's like, gosh, that's dark. So no, no, I totally hear you there. And even in the cases, which some people might be thinking of where it's necessary, it's truly necessary because of real abuse and violence, things like that, the danger of death that happens in some situations, it's still a loss, like you said, because it's not the ideal it's supposed to be. Right.

even if it's the better of two really crappy options, it's still something that I think deserve to be grieved. It's a serious loss, like you said. Right. The addiction, so as much as you want to share, what led you to it? How did that start? And what kept you coming back? What need was that filling? So I was exposed to pornography when I was 11. A classmate had said the word lesbian and I had no idea what it meant. And so I went to Google and I found out what lesbian meant very quickly.

What kept me coming back? think, so I was sexually abused when I was younger by my grandfather. So I think that was part of it, trying to reconcile that. And what kept me coming back? I think it was just a coping mechanism for boredom, for rage, for sadness. It made me feel good about myself in the moment. Felt like I was doing something not harmful because society says it's not harmful. So I was.

I was engaging in my sexuality in a very twisted way, but it was the only way I could because of my traumatic background. just, I couldn't even hug people. Like it was, it was bad. So I couldn't hug people, but behind closed doors, there was this horrible addiction that was happening. And after a certain point, you just come back because you're addicted. You don't even have a motivation. It just becomes part of your neural pathways. So that probably happened pretty quickly, but yeah, broken home plus abuse plus, you know.

just trying to find an escape. Yeah, okay, 100%. And I was exposed at the same age and, whoo, no, my heart breaks for you too with the abuse. I'm so sorry for that. I am curious, so you're 11 that lasts into high school, I imagine. And was there a low point that you hit where you were just kind of ready to give up or you hit rock bottom and realized, my goodness, this is controlling my life? Yeah, I think, I always knew I had a problem, but I think...

I had given up on trying to fix it. I basically threw up my hands and said, this addiction is going to be with me for my whole life. So why bother trying to fight it? It was only in meeting my now husband and eventually converting to Catholicism that I realized, this is a sin and I need to get rid of it. So I had no plan though to get rid of it. I had no idea what to do. So I started like calling off sources of my addiction and that helped a little bit. the only thing that, so I would like,

delete apps that were pathways to that addiction. had ⁓ a bunch of notes that had explicit content on them, so I would delete those. So I started pairing back, but as people who are addicted know that there's always a way to get back to what you want to do. So really what solved it was basically a Hail Mary prayer of like, God, can't do this alone. I can't figure this out. Help me. And I was

I would call this a miracle because I have no other explanation for it, but when I converted in 2021, I put down pornography and never picked it up again. So after I had the Plessis Sacrament for the first time, I just stopped watching pornography wholesale. And I know that might not be relatable for some people and might be hard to hear for others because they want that miracle for themselves, but for me it was just grace. It's beautiful. over five years or about five years.

It was a decade. It was a decade of addiction. Okay. So, it lasted, but then you've been free since that time. And you don't have to go into this, but I know yet to anyone listening, I think one of the most tempting things when you find freedom is if you ever were to fall back, it can be extremely demoralizing. Something like, ⁓ I've fallen there. Then I, there's no hope for me, but I just, anyone.

who maybe finds himself in that situation. Like, I just want to say there's so much hope, even in that situation where you've maybe broken free and you fall back, that you can find freedom again. yeah, would you say anything like anything else to someone listening right now who maybe either is stuck in their kind of initial addiction or maybe did have a relapse and feels a lot of shame? I would say that shame is not super helpful in changing your behavior. You know, a little guilt can be good to...

have you come back to Jesus and apologize, but shame just keeps you in that spiral. Seek help. I know for women it's especially hard because we think this is a very male sin. There's a lot of resources for men and women don't get talked about nearly enough with this sin, but Magdala Ministries is wonderful and ⁓ they have small groups for women who are struggling with the same thing. So I highly recommend them. So yeah, there's hope out there. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Love Magdala.

We'll link to some of the podcast episodes we've done on this topic for both men and women. ⁓ because yeah, it, you know, it's a human problem. Like he said, it's not just a male or female problem. And I think it's one of the things that I learned from J. Stringer. Have you read any of J. Stringer's content? man. It's so good. So he, J. Stringer is a therapist who kind of specializes in this area of sexual compulsion and addiction. And his first book, he studied about 4,000 men and women who struggled with sexual compulsions or addictions we're talking like.

porn use, masturbation, infidelity. And one of the wild things he found was that the type of trauma someone endured could be predicted by their porn searches and sexual fantasies. Wow. And in other words, was like this whole, there was this whole mosaic, there's this whole pattern to it that they realized like, none of this is random. And I think what happens with so many of us who've struggled in this area is that we think like, we're the only one. We think that no one could relate. We think that, you know, there's no hope for us. When in reality it's like,

Actually, it's super common for people from broken families to struggle with this. Dr. Patrick Carnes, I have said this on the podcast before, Dr. Patrick Carnes, another expert in this area of sexual compulsion, he found that 87 % of people with a sex addiction come from a broken family. I believe that. That's nine out of 10. So it's like, if you are dealing with this and your family was really dysfunctional, broken, parents got divorced, it's like, makes sense. And so I think there's like a lot of freedom to, you know, to hearing that, wow, it's actually predictable and it's likely, but.

Thankfully you don't have to stay there and that's where some of those resources that we'll mention or that we'll link to in the show notes can be incredibly helpful. I do believe that freedom is possible. What Jay Stringer basically says is like, our path to freedom is actually through the specific sexual struggles that we have. not sometimes we're gonna like shy away from them. They're bad, they're dirty, they're shameful. But he says, no, you actually need to learn to listen to your lust. He's not suggesting that we fall into lust. That's not what he's saying. But he's saying basically it's just a symptom.

It's just like pinpoints where deeper healing is needed. So not to go on a rant, but I found it really helpful and a lot of people like us have as well. So we'll link to all that in the show notes. Jay came on to talk about that book, but is there anything that you would add to any of that? Yeah, I think I would just treat your addiction with curiosity instead of revulsion. So porn satisfies a need. You just have to figure out what that need is for you. So if it's connection, if it's love, if it's acceptance.

if it's a self-esteem boost. That's all good to know so you can find those good things elsewhere. So just be curious about your addiction. Don't be afraid of it. That's where the devil wants to keep you, I think, is fear and shame. And yeah, that's all I'll say. For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault,

guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face, cope in healthy ways instead of falling into bad habits, improve their relationship with their parents, navigate the holidays and other life events, and build healthy relationships and so much more. One Amazon review said this, this book is packed full of really practical help. If you come from a broken family, or even if you don't, but you love someone that does, this book is so helpful. I can't recommend this enough.

By the way, it's a quick read and it doesn't need to be read cover to cover. Since it's in question and answer format, you can just read one of the questions and one of the answers. And so if you want to join the thousands of people who've gotten a copy, just go to restoredministry.com slash books to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restoredministry.com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes. So good. And one final thing to just kind of mind was just how porn in particular can be a super stimulant. So similar to like a street brawl, it's to the point where

you are going to have to go through a period of withdrawal. And so it's going to be like really difficult and the habit you created, like you said, is going to just want to pull you back again and again. And so that's where I think there's so much wisdom in what you said about like, just don't do it alone. It's just such a fool's errand to try and you'll look up years later and be like, well, haven't made any progress, even though I wanted to save my pride and not ask for help. Was there anything else in terms of like struggles with emotions or habits that you wanted to mention that was part of your story that we haven't?

touched on. I think when you mentioned all the big ones, like the acting out sexually and then the judgment and rage against other people, but that was all kind of part and parcel of what made Autumn. Yeah, Maybe let's go back to the anger for a second there. Was there any other shift in you that helped you deal with the anger toward particular people? Was there anything you learned or a transformational moment that helped you realize that maybe the anger is normal to feel, but what do do with that? I think part of it is just healed by time.

distance from the events helped. I went to college and was away from my parents and wasn't in their house anymore. That was a good healing distance for me. Then seeing my younger brother, this is probably one of the saddest parts of my story, think, but my younger brother is six years younger than me and he couldn't escape the court system. He was having to go back and forth between my mother and my father's house. At the time he was so young, he couldn't understand why I was angry at my father, so he was angry at me for not.

coming to the house with them and hanging out with dad all buddy buddy. Seeing him get older and progressively get more angry at my father for what he had done was devastating. But seeing him feel that rage helped cool my rage, if that makes sense. I had to be his oracle in the desert when he was needing to go to someone who understood. We couldn't both be angry, it wouldn't be productive. So I had to process my emotions, journal it out, talk to friends and family and

So I could be there for him. So I think that helped me turn down the temperature a little bit, was seeing his struggle. It'd be kind of a counterweight to his anger. Okay. That makes some sense. You mentioned writing has been helpful for you. You're a great writer. I think. Yeah, no, no, you are. I was really impressed with your writing ability. Yeah. Talk more about that. How has that helped you heal and kind of process your emotions? I think journaling is really good for some people, myself included, just to get out the things that you probably shouldn't say.

⁓ My mouth gets me in trouble most often. I think journaling is good for me. So I just wrote down every emotion I was feeling just to get it out because if I kept it in, I would just get really depressed. So that was helpful for me is just writing and channeling that energy into something creative that could be painting for you or running or working out really hard or some other mentally stimulating activity to make sure you don't unleash that on your friends. But that journaling was that for me.

Cool, beautiful. Writing has been really helpful for me. A friend of mine told me recently that people who've endured traumatic events in their lives are more likely to get into endurance sports. I don't know all the psychology behind it, but it kind of made sense to me, like you said, that could be a good outlet in a lot of ways. And I've definitely found that moving your body is incredibly helpful as well. Good stuff. You said you kind of escaped the court system and you didn't have to do the visitation similar to at least your younger brother, right?

I remember you saying that you felt really conflicted in that though, that his brothers were going to be with dad, but you out of self-protection just knew you couldn't do that. Why did you feel so conflicted and talk me through where you were at that point? I mean, I still don't know if I made the right choice sometimes. Basically, my older brother has autism, so he's not fully aware of everything that happens. And my younger brother was so much younger.

my dad was bringing his girlfriends to the house and things like that. I, yeah, you already know where this is going. So they were mean to my brothers and I couldn't do anything about it. I was the only one who like saw what my dad was doing. If that makes sense, like saw through all the BS and was watching him to make sure he was on good behavior. And I think he knew that, which is why he accepted me not wanting to come to his house because it served his

you know, his benefits. So I didn't go because I wanted to be a source of positivity for my brothers. And I tried going back and forth a couple of times and it was just incredibly damaging to my mental health. And I was like, I need to be alive for them. So that's more important than me being there in this case. It's still tough though. I mean, I don't know if you have siblings, but this is like really hard, a really hard choice to make, think. So hard, yeah.

No, I remember feeling guilty as well when I got to the point where I didn't have to do that stuff and they still had to and gosh, it's the worst, especially when you know things are unstable, tumultuous and they might be in a situation, which happened, it did happen where it's like, goodness, I wish it was there. You mentioned just this desire to not live anymore, to give up. What happened there? I don't know. I think part of it was like a hormonal thing that's common for women is once you

you know, start your menstrual period, your emotions just kind of are up and down for a few years. So that didn't help because that's exactly what my parents decided to get divorced. Yeah, not good. So I think part of it was hormonal. Part of it was just, I don't know, it felt like death basically. Like, I think this says, it says this in the literature, but sometimes a parent dying is actually better than a divorce because

your parent can die and still be this like paragon of virtue for you. You can still miss them. You can still talk about them lovingly. Whereas divorce, it's just more complex. So it felt like a death on steroids. So I just didn't see a way forward for me to be happy. I thought, well, I'm just gonna end up like them. You know, I'm gonna be this bitter person for the rest of my life and be angry and who's gonna wanna, who's gonna wanna deal with that? So I think all that together just made me not wanna.

do life anymore. I hear you. And was it just your brothers who kind of kept you from going there? Were there other forces as well? Thankfully, I was baptized when I was nine. So I think that was part of part of it. was the Holy Spirit just withholding my hand. But I never had a concrete plan. I was just I was just tired. I was just tired. I didn't I didn't have an active will to die, but I didn't have an active will to live. But I had friends, which is key. I had friends that were

from whole families and people who cared about me and would notice if I was gone. So I couldn't play that game of, no one would care. I knew that was a lie. So for their sake, I stayed alive. It's a heart wrenching place to be. I've sat with people close to me who were like at that point and yeah, you can just tell like, like you said it so perfectly, the look in their eyes, it's like they don't necessarily want to die, but they just don't want to live with the pain they're going through. And it's an understandable place to be. And so it's beautiful that you were able to

pull out of that and I definitely can see the impact of grace and all that. But really beautiful. What did you learn from your friends and their families that were healthy that maybe helped you get to a healthier place and even build your own marriage? I think I've had the luck to have exposure to a lot of wonderful father figures. So it proved to me that there were good men and that they loved their wives and could love their wives. So that was helpful for me believing that could be possible for someone like me. And then

I learned from my friends, this was a harder lesson to learn, but eventually they were like, Autumn, can't trauma dump on us anymore. And I was like, wow. At first I was hurt, I'm so hurt by that. But over time I was like, you know what, they're right. Like me rehashing this over and over again is not making it better. I need to like do something with this pain. So that's how know you have a real friend when they're like, ⁓ enough, we love you, but enough. So that was good for me to learn to not make the divorce and my

trauma from it, my whole personality. Like there were other parts of me that were important and not just that my parents hated each other. So. Totally. No, and I think it's even something I worry a lot about running, hosting this podcast and running this ministry or nonprofit behind it. It's like even the term child of divorce, I've said this before, I like don't really like cause it's just meant to describe an experience you had not become an identity.

And think sometimes we like take it on as an identity. So you said you were able to kind of look beyond that and move through it. I know we're gonna get to this shortly, but I'm curious, like, where did you go with your trauma and your pain, if not to your friends? Journaling continued to help. And then really diving into philosophy and faith helped me. Thinking about thinking, finding good answers to the problem of evil. That was huge for me because the problem of evil was my life.

Why would a good God let this happen to me? And so philosophy and reading C.S. Lewis and reading really good authors like that helped me process mentally and intellectually that evil does not mean there is not a good God, evil does not mean that you deserve it, those kinds of things. So I think philosophy helped a lot for me personally. Beautiful. No, why do you think that worked so well? mean, in addition to like the problem of

pain and evil, like that's huge, obviously, to figure that out or to come to the realization that there can be a good God and still have suffering in our lives. But yeah, why did that help? I'm really curious. I think it broke me out of my like mental prison a little bit. thinking about thinking is good for you. It's like math for your brain. Well, instead of thinking about my pain and how sad I was about myself and how everyone else sucked and all this stuff, I could direct all of that energy into thinking about higher things than myself.

So it took me out of my own mental prison here. So I think that was a good thing for me. Yeah. Okay. Expanded your kind of small world to the bigger world. love that. A mentor challenged me in a similar way. He challenged me to find someone who was lonelier and struggling more than me and just help them, like love them. And that was really kind of eye-opening realizing like, whoop, there are people who are struggling more than me. And ⁓ so I think it

helped me realize that, you know, my pain wasn't the only pain in the world and even admits the pain, can still do good. You can still choose to love and help people. So I can definitely relate with you a lot on that. So we're almost to the end of our time together. I was curious, just want to touch briefly on your relationship with your parents. So you said that you, you know, you got to a point where even given all the hurt and anger that you felt toward your father, you were able to forgive him. What made it motivated you to actually forgive him? A lot of people.

don't go that route, they hold on to the unforgiveness. What motivated you to forgive him and maybe what were some of the practical things you did to actually forgive him? I think forgiveness is more for me, you know, like holding on to that poison. I've heard it said that like unforgiveness is holding on to poison and expecting the other person to die. And it's true. Like it was ruining my life being that resentful and angry all the time. And I was ready to move on. It had been years since the events took place and

I knew my dad and I were probably never gonna agree on what happened. So there was really no point in rehashing it. It would just be like banging my head against the wall. So I could either accept both my parents, frankly, as they were and not expect them to be the perfect parents that I probably would never have. It's kind of sad, but it's also like you have to accept what you were given a little bit and look for father figures elsewhere and in the church and...

in your families and friends because yeah, sometimes you're not going to get what you want. Practically, how did I forgive him? I wrote a letter forgiving him just for me. And over time, I slowly, you know, opened myself up to conversations with him again. Now that took years, so, you know, don't rush yourself if you don't feel ready. But I chose to invite him to my wedding, even though my therapist at the time said it was a terrible idea.

Once my granddaughter, or once my daughter was born, granddaughter, I told him I was pregnant. I allowed him to send me gifts for the baby. I invited him to her baptism. Events that had other people, so it wasn't so intense, like just one-on-one with him, because that always made me nervous, still does. But if there was an event with other people, I figured, how can I include him in my life, even if it's at a healthy distance? So that's basically what I've done. And I think it's...

been fruitful. And I also use it as an evangelization opportunity. He's not Catholic. So I feel like every time we see each other, I'm like, Hey, have you consented the church? So yeah. love them. Like even if there's with those boundaries, like which love requires health boundaries. So I love that. Well, it's been so good talking. You had two final questions. One, how is your life better now? Give us a little bit of a contrast. We kind of went through a lot of the mug and a lot of the hard times you've been through, but tell me the good things about your life. How is your life better now that you've

found a lot of healing and growth. Oh my goodness, my life's completely different. My marriage is wonderful. We have a little house together in the rural countryside. It's wonderful. I have a daughter who's amazing and just inspires me every day to be a child again with her. My relationship with my in-laws is good. My relationship with my mom is pretty good, all things considered. My relationship with my dad's getting better. I'm writing. I have a job I like. It's completely different. I just don't.

hold all that negative emotion in my head anymore. And I take myself lightly a little bit nowadays, which is good. So good. Adam, so good to speak with you. Really grateful for you sharing your story and, being so vulnerable. I know it's going to help a lot of people. I want to give you the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you offer to maybe the younger you listening right now, especially if they fear becoming like their parents, maybe repeating their parents' story in their own life? What final encouragement or advice would you give?

tools out there that can help you not become like your parents. However, your parents are still within you and there are good things about your parents, even if it's hard to see that right now. But you are the good things about your parents. You are. So you can take those good things and maximize them and minimize the bad things. And that's your choice. You know, there's a lot of tools out there. There's ministries like this to help you kind of cope with the trauma from this event in your life.

there's friends you can have, beautiful relationships are possible, just all things are possible with God and with an openness to good things. It won't always be this bad. And if it is this bad for a long time, God's always with you in that as well.

That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help and keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

I Didn’t Know What a Real Relationship Was

2-minute read.

This story was written by April at 61 years old. Her parents never separated. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

My parents had already been married almost 20 years. When I was born, I had two sisters. 14 and 18 years old. Dad was probably hoping to get a son, but instead he got another daughter. Mom was 42 when I was born, Dad 40. There was already a problem when I came. Dad had been sexually abusive with my 14-year-old sister. My mom caught him exposing himself, I think when she was 12. She told him that she wouldn't allow that to continue, and that when I was born, I was her child and off limits.

HOW THE DYSFUNCTION MADE HER FEEL

I believe I was told about daddy when I was around 10. But even so, I didn't feel loved by my dad. I couldn't sit on his lap and he didn't show me any affection. My mom was a stout Jehovah's Witness, and she raised me as one. If you aren’t aware, the witnesses don't understand what grace is, and you have to earn your way to heaven.

Anyway, my oldest sister moved out by the time I was 3, and moved far away to another state. I was close to the middle sister, she was like a mother to me, and showed me love. Mom was distant and to this day, don't know exactly why. She wasn't affectionate to her children.

HOW THE DYSFUNCTION IMPACTED HER

I was never molested, like my sister, but I didn't seem to know what a real relationship was, and I had 3 divorces. Two with the same man. To make a long story shorter, I found Jesus and I have been married to a wonderful man for 18 years. The only thing is I still struggle with low self-esteem and worth.

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Her Dad Cheated, Her Family Broke, But She Broke the Cycle | Autumn: #175

Episode link coming soon. Thanks for your patience and support.

Episode link coming soon. Thanks for your patience and support.

When your family breaks apart, anger makes sense. But if it has nowhere to go, it can turn into bitterness, depression, addiction, relationship fear, and despair.

In this episode, Autumn shares how her parents’ divorce, her father’s infidelity, generational dysfunction, and sexual abuse shaped the way she saw men, love, marriage, God, and herself. She opens up about the rage she carried, her struggle with pornography addiction, suicidal thoughts, and the fear that she was doomed to repeat her parents’ mistakes.

But her story does not end there.

Autumn also shares how faith, writing, friendship, therapy, forgiveness, and a healthy marriage helped her heal and build a life that looks completely different from the brokenness she came from.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why anger after divorce is often a response to real loss and injustice

• How divorce can feel like a death, even when it was “necessary”

• Why fear of repeating your parents’ mistakes is so common

• How pornography addiction can be connected to deeper wounds

• What Autumn learned to look for in a spouse

• How she forgave her father without pretending the hurt didn’t happen

• Why your parents’ divorce is part of your story, but not your identity

If you’re from a broken family, angry about what happened, afraid of repeating your parents’ story, or wondering if healthy love is even possible for you, this episode is for you.

Share Your Story

Get the Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

speaker-1 (00:00)

Autumn, welcome to the show. So good to have you here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk with you. You've been through so much. You have struggled with things like depression, even struggles with suicide or ideation at least. You have struggled a lot in relationships you've shared, whether it's your relationship with your parents or romantic relationships. But you didn't let that crush you. You worked through so many things. You're in a better spot today. And I'm so excited to see kind how you went from where you were to where you are today. But starting out, I wanted to kind of go back to the beginning. You were 14 years old.

when your parents shared the news that they were getting divorced, but you weren't surprised. Why weren't you surprised and what led your family to that position of your parents getting divorced? I wasn't surprised because the tension in my house was very palpable. My parents were speaking to each other, but weren't hugging, weren't kissing, showing any sorts of affection. And my father was sleeping upstairs in the guest room. And I remember asking my mother why, and she said,

Well, he gets up early on the weekends to, he was training for triathlons at the time. So he gets up early, early on the weekends. I don't want to get woken up. And I just didn't buy that. I think I was a little too old to buy that line. So that was kind of the first inclination. And then I actually met the woman he was cheating with. And so when my mom broke the news to me that my father had committed adultery, I immediately said, it's this woman. And.

I pulled up the picture of her because he introduced us to her and I said, it's her. So I think on some subliminal level, I knew that their relationship was a little more than friendly. I didn't know the real start of the story was when my brother was just born. So this was about 2006. My father had previously committed adultery with his secretary at his workplace. And I did not know about that affair, but my mother forgave him for that affair and they moved on.

there was just a pattern of infidelity in the relationship and my mother and father tried to work things out, but there just didn't seem to be any road to reconciliation. So that was when they decided to divorce. And there was a point at which you realized that the infidelity that you saw, you know, with your dad didn't start with your parents. There were signs of it in previous generations. Yeah, take me to that moment when you kind of realized, this goes deeper than just my parents' marriage. I think

The fact that on the grandparent level there had been cheating as well. My dad's dad cheated on his wife when he was in the military and even left the family for a few, maybe not a year, but a couple months. So my dad had seen that and unfortunately fell into that pattern. But it also was on my mother's side as well. Her grandmother was cheated on repeatedly by her grandfather. And so it kind of ran through both sides. So.

Thankfully, my mom was very open about our past and it wasn't like a shameful thing. was, you know, these people made mistakes, but they're still our ancestors. So I did know about that. And I think that helped me kind of cope a little, little bit knowing that, you know, it's easy to fall into the sin. And my dad did not get the best example growing up. He didn't see a faithful relationship. So without having that example, it was hard for him to replicate it in his own marriage. when did your mom share that news about your grandparents? I'm curious.

⁓ I can't remember a time not knowing. think I was always kind of curious about people I'd never met. And so I just asked all sorts of questions and she was always very open with me and not judgmental, but just letting me into the fact that there were good things about our ancestors and bad things. And these were some of the bad things. Okay. Now that makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like you, yeah, like you said, you were curious and it wasn't this thing where she was kind of like cheering it with you that overwhelmed you. Okay. Yeah. Now that makes sense. I've heard.

kind of the opposite side of the story. That's why I was asking where, you know, parents ended up sharing and dumping, which I know we'll get to a little bit later, but dumping maybe information that kids don't really need to know, at least not at that point in their life. And so I'm glad to hear that at least given this topic, it was done in a way that wasn't overwhelming to you. Yes, that came later, the dumping, unfortunately. We're getting into, but on this note of infidelity, I'm curious, how did

you know, the families, the paths and fidelity with grandparents, and specifically your father's cheating, impact how you viewed men, love, relationships, and especially this idea of like being faithful. It seemed unattainable to me. Most of my friends, it seemed at the time, looking back, I know this wasn't the case, but it seemed like everyone's parents I knew were breaking up, getting divorced, having all sorts of issues. So I just thought that this wasn't possible for me. Like it was, it was in my blood somehow that I couldn't be faithful.

So that was really, really tough to kind of get over that fear and realize that the cycle can stop with me and it doesn't have to be a generational thing that is like in my DNA or something like that. So it sounds like you've wrestled with that a bit. I'm curious. I've dealt with similar questions and I'm curious, was there a specific moment when you kind of came to that realization that, you know, this doesn't have to be me in my story? There's certainly that fear, right? And I hear this with a lot of people, I guess it's like,

we're really afraid of repeating our parents' story. Because we've seen that. We've seen, you know, kind of like with the grandparents that started there, went to your parents, you know, not blaming them, but there's certainly this trend that you see that's hard to ignore. And so, yeah, I'm curious if there was a specific moment where you kind of realized like, no, this doesn't have to be me. I think in preparing to be married to my now husband, a lot of these fears came up, especially in like the engagement and pre-engagement period. I think I had to just honestly take a leap of faith and

recognized that he came, like look at the objective facts. He came from a good whole family where there was no divorce present. That was healing for me to at least have one of us have a whole family. So I saw a good example of marriage from his parents. I had many examples of good marriages around me. So I knew it was theoretically possible, even if it wasn't for my parents. And I think the knowledge that helps me the most actually is that my parents were frankly just incompatible with each other and both had very traumatic upbringings.

And in comparison, my upbringing was more positive, not saying there was nothing bad, but more positive. So I had just better tools to use to resolve conflicts. And that coupled with the good examples that I saw coupled with just God, ⁓ you know, having Catholicism in my life and having the blessed sacrament and confession and just having those, just having the tools to be a good partner, I think helps me take the leap and get married.

No, I love them. I felt similar in a lot of ways, like looking back at my parents. I love my parents and you know, I know they would admit that there were mistakes that they made. I clearly see that, but still love them of course. And in a lot of ways I've come to this place of compassion where it's like, man, they had to do so much with so little. And I feel like, you know, it sounds like we're the same in that we were given so much. had people in our lives, especially for me, and we'll get to this in your story, like mentors and people who kind of stepped into fill those roles, maybe where mom and dad didn't quite live up to what.

I need it. so, so yeah, so it's like looking back at it almost feels unfair. It's like, I, yeah, I've been so blessed. There's been so much good given to you feel the same. think it is kind of unfair to expect a perfect marriage from two people who grew up in very broken homes and in a very, they grew up almost in a cult. That's a whole nother story, but that whole situation was super damaging to them. I, yeah, I just can't imagine. So I try to imagine my parents as the ages that I.

see them as, which is teenagers. There were certain events in their life that didn't let them move past that. So when I think of my mom as a teenager who's struggling and has abusive parents and my dad and his situation with his mom leaning on him emotionally, I mean, it was just a mess on both accounts. So I try to think of them as teenagers and that helps me to have a lot of compassion for them. That's a good tactic. And as you know, before everyone listening, that's one of the effects of trauma. It can literally keep you like stuck.

developmentally in the past, or at least when you're triggered in certain ways, you literally act as like an 11 year old or a 14 year old or whatever age you might be kind of forced back into. And so I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you just said, but I'm curious, was there anything else specifically in your view of maybe men that kind of bled from your dad's behavior into your relationships? thought that every fight would end in the dissolution of the relationship. So I put up and shut up. I let...

one partner kind of take advantage of me because I thought that's what you had to do to be liked and stay in the relationship. So I kind of modeled what my mom had to do to keep the relationship together, if that makes sense. And I couldn't have a voice because my mom didn't have a voice. And at the same time, this resentment of men just was simmering under the surface. You know, they're not faithful. They can't be faithful.

Is it even worth it? Like, is marriage worth it? I don't even want to have kids. You know, it just all felt like too much of a risk because men seemed so, you know, wishy washy and like you couldn't depend on them because I couldn't depend on my dad. So that was kind of the underlying belief under all of that angst. Yeah. And it's true in some situations, like you experienced with your dad and, you know, sadly in our culture, it's like a really common thing for men to be exactly what you described. but I'm really curious. So you ended up with a guy at one point who

really mimicked your dad in so many ways. I remember in the article I read, you said, Freud would be proud. So just kind of recreating that same environment relationship that you had, you know, with your father, but you didn't stay there, which I really admire. I'm curious, like you came to a point where like, I need to break up with this guy. he? And I'm curious what changed in you and maybe take us to that moment when you're like, this has to stop.

I think COVID was a point for a lot of people to figure out what they needed to change in their life. For us, I was under the sad illusion that people who disagreed on very fundamental issues and beliefs could still make it work in a relationship. so we disagreed about very, very many things. At that time, I was still an agnostic, so we should have on paper worked well together. But at a certain point in about April, 2020, I realized our beliefs about

this pandemic and really everything are completely different and they cannot be reconciled. I just had this one little thought in my head of, want to raise my children in the faith. I was agnostic, so that makes no sense. But I think I wanted my children to have a structure, even if I didn't believe in that structure. That was a non-starter with this particular boyfriend. That was it. Breaking point. I'm curious, was there a point ever

in your relationships where you were just like, you mentioned this a little bit before, but you were just like, why even try? Like, I'm not even gonna go down the route of love and marriage. I'm not even gonna, you said you didn't even want kids at one point. Yeah, like tell me a little bit about that experience and how you came around to the point of like, no, I think this might be worth it. After that relationship dissolved, I resigned myself to be a cat lady for like the rest of my life. It was very dramatic. I'm sure you would make a great cat lady out of me. I was 20, I mean.

There was no reason to be this dramatic, but I was ready for it to be over because I was like, that was a year and a half of my life. I can't, and my judgment is so bad. Like I couldn't trust my own judgment. I felt like if I dated that guy and thought that was love, then I need to have a reality check. So I think I was just ready to write it all off and give up because it is a lot of effort to be in a relationship and it's very vulnerable and being in love is very vulnerable.

And so you don't want to get hurt again. And I was tired of being hurt by that point, especially with my parents' situation. And then my now husband comes into my life and I'm like, oh, gosh, okay. Love makes no sense. I love this guy, even though I am so scared of that, that I do love him, but I couldn't stop it. You were scared. What were you scared of exactly? I we're kind of talking about all of this, maybe going back a little bit, but yeah, what scared you the most maybe? The first one that came to mind is rejection. Just not.

getting into a relationship and marriage, which I believed and still believed at that time is permanent and realizing, oh, this person doesn't love you and that you don't love this person. That was my personal nightmare. Cause my parents, that's, that was my parents story. They liked each other, but they probably shouldn't have gotten married. You know, they just weren't compatible. So I feared that. feared that. A hundred percent. My mom shared at one point that this isn't maybe too much, but my mom shared at one point that, um,

Yeah, my dad and her didn't have the healthiest relationship. And I think they both would admit that at some level before they were married. And I think there were even people in their lives like telling them like, no, you're like not a good idea. Don't do this. And for one reason or another, they just kind of pushed ahead, kind of fell their way into marriage. yeah, and then it led to just a really unhealthy place, unfortunately. Yeah, I know that there's so much to say on the relationship end. What about your husband made you believe that like a man

could be different than everything you experienced before and that he could be faithful in particular. He could apologize. Wow. I mean, that was huge. He could say, I'm sorry and mean it. That was a huge thing for me. He was upset when he made me upset. It wasn't all about him. We resolved our conflicts with words. All of that gave me hope that we could make a marriage work.

And he just loved me. Like he, he cared about me. He cared about my family. He would go out of his way to do things for me. He drove an hour and 30 minutes, like every week to visit me. So yeah. And he had, he had good parents. Like that is so key. Cause I was, I was like, I can't be in a relationship with someone else who has divorced parents. know some people can do that, but I just, I needed a guy from a good household and he was that. So that was nice too. Yeah. No, I don't think you should feel.

guilty or anything about that. know sometimes that could be a little triggering for people, but I think it's, you know yourself and you knew that's what you needed. I have friends who both came from, you know, divorced families and they've made it work and they've, from everything I could tell, a really beautiful marriage. Yeah, but I know others where they're like, no, that is absolutely a requirement of mine. So, so yeah, I think that's, that could be really wise. I love that what you said about your husband though. And I think, you know, one of the most important decisions we can make, let me just spend some time here, is um,

on choosing a spouse. so I, you one of the things that I like to say is you can tell kind of where someone's priorities are by how they spend their time and their money. And if they spend their time like and their money just on themselves, uh, that that's, think a red flag, but if they're doing that for others, like you said, your family, for you, I think that's a really good and beautiful thing. I love the fact that your husband is humble. That's a really beautiful quality. think people should look for, because on one level, as you know,

It's the foundation of all the virtues. But it also, like you said, so well, it gives you the ability to apologize, to admit when you're wrong, which I'm sure you've noticed, like it happens a lot within marriage. I certainly have noticed that. So yeah, I'm so curious, like, was there a list of qualities you were adamant about in addition to wanting someone from, you know, a healthy family? If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story.

Reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level and makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, they're less anxious, they're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the same path that you're on but a bit far behind you.

to just hear your advice and to hear your story since you're going through things that you've been through. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restoredministry.com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restoredministry.com slash story, or just by clicking the link in the show notes. Your list of requirements gets shorter and shorter as you get older. ⁓ I wanted someone who wanted children, smart, funny.

Ideally, caring gets along with my friends and family. That's very important. He kind of fit all those boxes. Attractive to me doesn't necessarily mean attractive to everybody, but attractive to me. Ambitious. I love music. That was a non-negotiable. I was like, I need someone to love music with me, otherwise they're not going to understand me as a person. Yeah. Love that. No, I like the mix of the objectives. You got to have these and then.

these like more subjective to you, but really important and still non-negotiables. That's really, really good. I did make the list of like the qualities I wanted, but I remember one of the things that really attracted me to my wife was just her selflessness. Kind like your husband, I noticed that she just had a heart for other people. Like she's a nurse and so clearly like her job literally requires her to care for others. She, you know, was involved in like ministry at our college campus. So it was like this kind of obvious thing. Like, yeah, she's clearly like time and money. Like she's...

proof that she's putting it into that. So that was one of the things that really attracted me. What would you say to maybe a woman like you were at the time who maybe doesn't know what she wants to look for in this spouse? Like obviously there's all these different qualities. What are some, yeah, what are maybe some of the big ones in addition to what we mentioned of like someone who's humble, can they admit that they're wrong? Like, yeah, what advice you give on that? I'm curious. think the biggest thing for young women is you want to be with the guy who wants to be with you. It sounds so simple, but I can't think of how many times

If you have to ask yourself, what's he thinking about? Does he really want to hang out with me? Why isn't he answering this text message? He just might not be the one. He might not be actually into you. But I think women, kind of like on some level crave that uncertainty maybe. It's hard to describe, but if a man is not excited to see you, wanting to see you, sad when you leave, happy when you arrive, like you just need to, you need to cut your losses, I think, and walk away.

That's probably one of the big ones. And someone who shares your values. Don't waste your time with a guy who you don't agree with on the fundamentals because in marriage, you don't want to spend your time arguing about the fundamentals. You want that to be something you're aligned on. So whether that's like kids or are we going to homeschool or what church are we going to go to? Those are big issues that you just don't want to about every day.

Right? marriage is hard enough as it is. Like if you add those like big wedges between you, my goodness, I don't know how couples make it there. And if it's okay, I just wanted to throw in, you know, in addition to those things you mentioned, what the researchers say is there's like kind of five big areas of life where you need to be on the same page. And you mentioned God, parenting, you know, how are you going to raise your kids? How many kids are you going to have? Or just an openness to life. Money being another one. A healthy relationship with your in-laws, being able to set boundaries there.

And then intimacy, especially sexual intimacy, you before marriage, but even within marriage, like having boundaries there and having like a plan being on the same page with what that looks like. And yeah, from what I've been told, if you're on the same page in those five areas, your chance of having a happy, know, successful marriage just shoots way up. So I love your advice. It's good. I want to transition a little bit if that's okay. So you had mentioned that you struggled with, you know, depression. There was a lot of anger, some suicidal ideation, but some of the things that

I think two of the things that stuck out to me the most in reading your story was the anger and the addiction. And so if it's okay, I wanted to go into those little bits. Maybe let's start with the anger. You were angry at your parents, at God. What were you angry about and what did you learn to do with that anger? I was angry about everything. Angry that my picture-perfect life had been taken away. We had to sell my childhood home because divorce costs money and it's so expensive.

So we had to sell my childhood home and leave it and move into a very, we were poor for many years is basically what I'm trying to get at. And that was really, really hard, especially in my suburb that is kind of upper middle class, I would say. So I just felt shame and that turned into anger. I was angry at my dad for thinking that he did nothing wrong. I think if we had a conversation today, I don't know how much.

self-reflection has happened, I hope more, but at the time he was convinced he did nothing wrong in the relationship. So that made me angry. I was angry at my mom for filing for divorce, even though on some level I knew it was justified. It was just very complex. And so I was just angry all the time and I didn't really do anything with it until college. So it kind of just simmered and turned into bitterness and resentment and judgmental thoughts of others. And that kind of continued.

for years. So I did not handle it productively at the time. think that's a common experience. I know I experienced that too. I remember when I learned the news that my parents were getting divorced, I just felt so much anger. Like I wanted the people involved to die. And I was a love-neural kid at the time and it was just like so pent up. And then I think over time, I'm curious if you would agree with this, yeah, we just learned to kind of hide it because we know that rocking the boat and adding more drama to an already dramatic situation is not probably going to help.

at least in some situations. Some people do act out and kind of cry for attention in that way. But I think there's a lot of people who care a lot of anger and they just don't know what to do with it. Yeah, I'm curious, any further thoughts on that before we jump over to the addiction? No, I wish I had an answer solution for people, but it is just hard sometimes. Yeah, it is hard. And I think I remember hearing anger is the response to a real or perceived injustice. Yeah. And I think there's something so good there. And I think sometimes it's so confusing for people like us because the way that

people talk about broken families and divorce, they don't really talk about the fact that there's an injustice going on there. They talk about the fact that like, well, it's for the best. There's actually a good thing on some levels. I hate it's for the best so much. Tell me more. Oh my goodness. Every child with a divorce knows that, you know, it's better for your parents. Okay. It's for the best. You know, it's better for you guys. No, it's not. No, it might be better in some ways, but.

there's a real loss. It's almost like a death, you know? So every time I hear it's for the best, just, I nod politely, but I, you know, just move on. Yeah. It's very, not triggering. don't like that word, but just brings back memories to hear that. No, a hundred percent. And I think, you know, sometimes this well intentioned people often I've found as well as people trying to like console your, I don't know, make sense of something that's painful. But, ⁓ yeah, I've, found that that was just so unhelpful and

demeaning in a lot of ways. Yes. you said, you never walk into a funeral and be like, well, it's for the best. It's best. It's like, gosh, that's dark. So no, no, I totally hear you there. And even in the cases, which some people might be thinking of where it's necessary, it's truly necessary because of real abuse and violence, things like that, the danger of death that happens in some situations, it's still a loss, like you said, because it's not the ideal it's supposed to be. Right.

even if it's the better of two really crappy options, it's still something that I think deserve to be grieved. It's a serious loss, like you said. Right. The addiction, so as much as you want to share, what led you to it? How did that start? And what kept you coming back? What need was that filling? So I was exposed to pornography when I was 11. A classmate had said the word lesbian and I had no idea what it meant. And so I went to Google and I found out what lesbian meant very quickly.

What kept me coming back? think, so I was sexually abused when I was younger by my grandfather. So I think that was part of it, trying to reconcile that. And what kept me coming back? I think it was just a coping mechanism for boredom, for rage, for sadness. It made me feel good about myself in the moment. Felt like I was doing something not harmful because society says it's not harmful. So I was.

I was engaging in my sexuality in a very twisted way, but it was the only way I could because of my traumatic background. just, I couldn't even hug people. Like it was, it was bad. So I couldn't hug people, but behind closed doors, there was this horrible addiction that was happening. And after a certain point, you just come back because you're addicted. You don't even have a motivation. It just becomes part of your neural pathways. So that probably happened pretty quickly, but yeah, broken home plus abuse plus, you know.

just trying to find an escape. Yeah, okay, 100%. And I was exposed at the same age and, whoo, no, my heart breaks for you too with the abuse. I'm so sorry for that. I am curious, so you're 11 that lasts into high school, I imagine. And was there a low point that you hit where you were just kind of ready to give up or you hit rock bottom and realized, my goodness, this is controlling my life? Yeah, I think, I always knew I had a problem, but I think...

I had given up on trying to fix it. I basically threw up my hands and said, this addiction is going to be with me for my whole life. So why bother trying to fight it? It was only in meeting my now husband and eventually converting to Catholicism that I realized, this is a sin and I need to get rid of it. So I had no plan though to get rid of it. I had no idea what to do. So I started like calling off sources of my addiction and that helped a little bit. the only thing that, so I would like,

delete apps that were pathways to that addiction. had ⁓ a bunch of notes that had explicit content on them, so I would delete those. So I started pairing back, but as people who are addicted know that there's always a way to get back to what you want to do. So really what solved it was basically a Hail Mary prayer of like, God, can't do this alone. I can't figure this out. Help me. And I was

I would call this a miracle because I have no other explanation for it, but when I converted in 2021, I put down pornography and never picked it up again. So after I had the Plessis Sacrament for the first time, I just stopped watching pornography wholesale. And I know that might not be relatable for some people and might be hard to hear for others because they want that miracle for themselves, but for me it was just grace. It's beautiful. over five years or about five years.

It was a decade. It was a decade of addiction. Okay. So, it lasted, but then you've been free since that time. And you don't have to go into this, but I know yet to anyone listening, I think one of the most tempting things when you find freedom is if you ever were to fall back, it can be extremely demoralizing. Something like, ⁓ I've fallen there. Then I, there's no hope for me, but I just, anyone.

who maybe finds himself in that situation. Like, I just want to say there's so much hope, even in that situation where you've maybe broken free and you fall back, that you can find freedom again. yeah, would you say anything like anything else to someone listening right now who maybe either is stuck in their kind of initial addiction or maybe did have a relapse and feels a lot of shame? I would say that shame is not super helpful in changing your behavior. You know, a little guilt can be good to...

have you come back to Jesus and apologize, but shame just keeps you in that spiral. Seek help. I know for women it's especially hard because we think this is a very male sin. There's a lot of resources for men and women don't get talked about nearly enough with this sin, but Magdala Ministries is wonderful and ⁓ they have small groups for women who are struggling with the same thing. So I highly recommend them. So yeah, there's hope out there. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Love Magdala.

We'll link to some of the podcast episodes we've done on this topic for both men and women. ⁓ because yeah, it, you know, it's a human problem. Like he said, it's not just a male or female problem. And I think it's one of the things that I learned from J. Stringer. Have you read any of J. Stringer's content? man. It's so good. So he, J. Stringer is a therapist who kind of specializes in this area of sexual compulsion and addiction. And his first book, he studied about 4,000 men and women who struggled with sexual compulsions or addictions we're talking like.

porn use, masturbation, infidelity. And one of the wild things he found was that the type of trauma someone endured could be predicted by their porn searches and sexual fantasies. Wow. And in other words, was like this whole, there was this whole mosaic, there's this whole pattern to it that they realized like, none of this is random. And I think what happens with so many of us who've struggled in this area is that we think like, we're the only one. We think that no one could relate. We think that, you know, there's no hope for us. When in reality it's like,

Actually, it's super common for people from broken families to struggle with this. Dr. Patrick Carnes, I have said this on the podcast before, Dr. Patrick Carnes, another expert in this area of sexual compulsion, he found that 87 % of people with a sex addiction come from a broken family. I believe that. That's nine out of 10. So it's like, if you are dealing with this and your family was really dysfunctional, broken, parents got divorced, it's like, makes sense. And so I think there's like a lot of freedom to, you know, to hearing that, wow, it's actually predictable and it's likely, but.

Thankfully you don't have to stay there and that's where some of those resources that we'll mention or that we'll link to in the show notes can be incredibly helpful. I do believe that freedom is possible. What Jay Stringer basically says is like, our path to freedom is actually through the specific sexual struggles that we have. not sometimes we're gonna like shy away from them. They're bad, they're dirty, they're shameful. But he says, no, you actually need to learn to listen to your lust. He's not suggesting that we fall into lust. That's not what he's saying. But he's saying basically it's just a symptom.

It's just like pinpoints where deeper healing is needed. So not to go on a rant, but I found it really helpful and a lot of people like us have as well. So we'll link to all that in the show notes. Jay came on to talk about that book, but is there anything that you would add to any of that? Yeah, I think I would just treat your addiction with curiosity instead of revulsion. So porn satisfies a need. You just have to figure out what that need is for you. So if it's connection, if it's love, if it's acceptance.

if it's a self-esteem boost. That's all good to know so you can find those good things elsewhere. So just be curious about your addiction. Don't be afraid of it. That's where the devil wants to keep you, I think, is fear and shame. And yeah, that's all I'll say. For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault,

guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face, cope in healthy ways instead of falling into bad habits, improve their relationship with their parents, navigate the holidays and other life events, and build healthy relationships and so much more. One Amazon review said this, this book is packed full of really practical help. If you come from a broken family, or even if you don't, but you love someone that does, this book is so helpful. I can't recommend this enough.

By the way, it's a quick read and it doesn't need to be read cover to cover. Since it's in question and answer format, you can just read one of the questions and one of the answers. And so if you want to join the thousands of people who've gotten a copy, just go to restoredministry.com slash books to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restoredministry.com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes. So good. And one final thing to just kind of mind was just how porn in particular can be a super stimulant. So similar to like a street brawl, it's to the point where

you are going to have to go through a period of withdrawal. And so it's going to be like really difficult and the habit you created, like you said, is going to just want to pull you back again and again. And so that's where I think there's so much wisdom in what you said about like, just don't do it alone. It's just such a fool's errand to try and you'll look up years later and be like, well, haven't made any progress, even though I wanted to save my pride and not ask for help. Was there anything else in terms of like struggles with emotions or habits that you wanted to mention that was part of your story that we haven't?

touched on. I think when you mentioned all the big ones, like the acting out sexually and then the judgment and rage against other people, but that was all kind of part and parcel of what made Autumn. Yeah, Maybe let's go back to the anger for a second there. Was there any other shift in you that helped you deal with the anger toward particular people? Was there anything you learned or a transformational moment that helped you realize that maybe the anger is normal to feel, but what do do with that? I think part of it is just healed by time.

distance from the events helped. I went to college and was away from my parents and wasn't in their house anymore. That was a good healing distance for me. Then seeing my younger brother, this is probably one of the saddest parts of my story, think, but my younger brother is six years younger than me and he couldn't escape the court system. He was having to go back and forth between my mother and my father's house. At the time he was so young, he couldn't understand why I was angry at my father, so he was angry at me for not.

coming to the house with them and hanging out with dad all buddy buddy. Seeing him get older and progressively get more angry at my father for what he had done was devastating. But seeing him feel that rage helped cool my rage, if that makes sense. I had to be his oracle in the desert when he was needing to go to someone who understood. We couldn't both be angry, it wouldn't be productive. So I had to process my emotions, journal it out, talk to friends and family and

So I could be there for him. So I think that helped me turn down the temperature a little bit, was seeing his struggle. It'd be kind of a counterweight to his anger. Okay. That makes some sense. You mentioned writing has been helpful for you. You're a great writer. I think. Yeah, no, no, you are. I was really impressed with your writing ability. Yeah. Talk more about that. How has that helped you heal and kind of process your emotions? I think journaling is really good for some people, myself included, just to get out the things that you probably shouldn't say.

⁓ My mouth gets me in trouble most often. I think journaling is good for me. So I just wrote down every emotion I was feeling just to get it out because if I kept it in, I would just get really depressed. So that was helpful for me is just writing and channeling that energy into something creative that could be painting for you or running or working out really hard or some other mentally stimulating activity to make sure you don't unleash that on your friends. But that journaling was that for me.

Cool, beautiful. Writing has been really helpful for me. A friend of mine told me recently that people who've endured traumatic events in their lives are more likely to get into endurance sports. I don't know all the psychology behind it, but it kind of made sense to me, like you said, that could be a good outlet in a lot of ways. And I've definitely found that moving your body is incredibly helpful as well. Good stuff. You said you kind of escaped the court system and you didn't have to do the visitation similar to at least your younger brother, right?

I remember you saying that you felt really conflicted in that though, that his brothers were going to be with dad, but you out of self-protection just knew you couldn't do that. Why did you feel so conflicted and talk me through where you were at that point? I mean, I still don't know if I made the right choice sometimes. Basically, my older brother has autism, so he's not fully aware of everything that happens. And my younger brother was so much younger.

my dad was bringing his girlfriends to the house and things like that. I, yeah, you already know where this is going. So they were mean to my brothers and I couldn't do anything about it. I was the only one who like saw what my dad was doing. If that makes sense, like saw through all the BS and was watching him to make sure he was on good behavior. And I think he knew that, which is why he accepted me not wanting to come to his house because it served his

you know, his benefits. So I didn't go because I wanted to be a source of positivity for my brothers. And I tried going back and forth a couple of times and it was just incredibly damaging to my mental health. And I was like, I need to be alive for them. So that's more important than me being there in this case. It's still tough though. I mean, I don't know if you have siblings, but this is like really hard, a really hard choice to make, think. So hard, yeah.

No, I remember feeling guilty as well when I got to the point where I didn't have to do that stuff and they still had to and gosh, it's the worst, especially when you know things are unstable, tumultuous and they might be in a situation, which happened, it did happen where it's like, goodness, I wish it was there. You mentioned just this desire to not live anymore, to give up. What happened there? I don't know. I think part of it was like a hormonal thing that's common for women is once you

you know, start your menstrual period, your emotions just kind of are up and down for a few years. So that didn't help because that's exactly what my parents decided to get divorced. Yeah, not good. So I think part of it was hormonal. Part of it was just, I don't know, it felt like death basically. Like, I think this says, it says this in the literature, but sometimes a parent dying is actually better than a divorce because

your parent can die and still be this like paragon of virtue for you. You can still miss them. You can still talk about them lovingly. Whereas divorce, it's just more complex. So it felt like a death on steroids. So I just didn't see a way forward for me to be happy. I thought, well, I'm just gonna end up like them. You know, I'm gonna be this bitter person for the rest of my life and be angry and who's gonna wanna, who's gonna wanna deal with that? So I think all that together just made me not wanna.

do life anymore. I hear you. And was it just your brothers who kind of kept you from going there? Were there other forces as well? Thankfully, I was baptized when I was nine. So I think that was part of part of it. was the Holy Spirit just withholding my hand. But I never had a concrete plan. I was just I was just tired. I was just tired. I didn't I didn't have an active will to die, but I didn't have an active will to live. But I had friends, which is key. I had friends that were

from whole families and people who cared about me and would notice if I was gone. So I couldn't play that game of, no one would care. I knew that was a lie. So for their sake, I stayed alive. It's a heart wrenching place to be. I've sat with people close to me who were like at that point and yeah, you can just tell like, like you said it so perfectly, the look in their eyes, it's like they don't necessarily want to die, but they just don't want to live with the pain they're going through. And it's an understandable place to be. And so it's beautiful that you were able to

pull out of that and I definitely can see the impact of grace and all that. But really beautiful. What did you learn from your friends and their families that were healthy that maybe helped you get to a healthier place and even build your own marriage? I think I've had the luck to have exposure to a lot of wonderful father figures. So it proved to me that there were good men and that they loved their wives and could love their wives. So that was helpful for me believing that could be possible for someone like me. And then

I learned from my friends, this was a harder lesson to learn, but eventually they were like, Autumn, can't trauma dump on us anymore. And I was like, wow. At first I was hurt, I'm so hurt by that. But over time I was like, you know what, they're right. Like me rehashing this over and over again is not making it better. I need to like do something with this pain. So that's how know you have a real friend when they're like, ⁓ enough, we love you, but enough. So that was good for me to learn to not make the divorce and my

trauma from it, my whole personality. Like there were other parts of me that were important and not just that my parents hated each other. So. Totally. No, and I think it's even something I worry a lot about running, hosting this podcast and running this ministry or nonprofit behind it. It's like even the term child of divorce, I've said this before, I like don't really like cause it's just meant to describe an experience you had not become an identity.

And think sometimes we like take it on as an identity. So you said you were able to kind of look beyond that and move through it. I know we're gonna get to this shortly, but I'm curious, like, where did you go with your trauma and your pain, if not to your friends? Journaling continued to help. And then really diving into philosophy and faith helped me. Thinking about thinking, finding good answers to the problem of evil. That was huge for me because the problem of evil was my life.

Why would a good God let this happen to me? And so philosophy and reading C.S. Lewis and reading really good authors like that helped me process mentally and intellectually that evil does not mean there is not a good God, evil does not mean that you deserve it, those kinds of things. So I think philosophy helped a lot for me personally. Beautiful. No, why do you think that worked so well? mean, in addition to like the problem of

pain and evil, like that's huge, obviously, to figure that out or to come to the realization that there can be a good God and still have suffering in our lives. But yeah, why did that help? I'm really curious. I think it broke me out of my like mental prison a little bit. thinking about thinking is good for you. It's like math for your brain. Well, instead of thinking about my pain and how sad I was about myself and how everyone else sucked and all this stuff, I could direct all of that energy into thinking about higher things than myself.

So it took me out of my own mental prison here. So I think that was a good thing for me. Yeah. Okay. Expanded your kind of small world to the bigger world. love that. A mentor challenged me in a similar way. He challenged me to find someone who was lonelier and struggling more than me and just help them, like love them. And that was really kind of eye-opening realizing like, whoop, there are people who are struggling more than me. And ⁓ so I think it

helped me realize that, you know, my pain wasn't the only pain in the world and even admits the pain, can still do good. You can still choose to love and help people. So I can definitely relate with you a lot on that. So we're almost to the end of our time together. I was curious, just want to touch briefly on your relationship with your parents. So you said that you, you know, you got to a point where even given all the hurt and anger that you felt toward your father, you were able to forgive him. What made it motivated you to actually forgive him? A lot of people.

don't go that route, they hold on to the unforgiveness. What motivated you to forgive him and maybe what were some of the practical things you did to actually forgive him? I think forgiveness is more for me, you know, like holding on to that poison. I've heard it said that like unforgiveness is holding on to poison and expecting the other person to die. And it's true. Like it was ruining my life being that resentful and angry all the time. And I was ready to move on. It had been years since the events took place and

I knew my dad and I were probably never gonna agree on what happened. So there was really no point in rehashing it. It would just be like banging my head against the wall. So I could either accept both my parents, frankly, as they were and not expect them to be the perfect parents that I probably would never have. It's kind of sad, but it's also like you have to accept what you were given a little bit and look for father figures elsewhere and in the church and...

in your families and friends because yeah, sometimes you're not going to get what you want. Practically, how did I forgive him? I wrote a letter forgiving him just for me. And over time, I slowly, you know, opened myself up to conversations with him again. Now that took years, so, you know, don't rush yourself if you don't feel ready. But I chose to invite him to my wedding, even though my therapist at the time said it was a terrible idea.

Once my granddaughter, or once my daughter was born, granddaughter, I told him I was pregnant. I allowed him to send me gifts for the baby. I invited him to her baptism. Events that had other people, so it wasn't so intense, like just one-on-one with him, because that always made me nervous, still does. But if there was an event with other people, I figured, how can I include him in my life, even if it's at a healthy distance? So that's basically what I've done. And I think it's...

been fruitful. And I also use it as an evangelization opportunity. He's not Catholic. So I feel like every time we see each other, I'm like, Hey, have you consented the church? So yeah. love them. Like even if there's with those boundaries, like which love requires health boundaries. So I love that. Well, it's been so good talking. You had two final questions. One, how is your life better now? Give us a little bit of a contrast. We kind of went through a lot of the mug and a lot of the hard times you've been through, but tell me the good things about your life. How is your life better now that you've

found a lot of healing and growth. Oh my goodness, my life's completely different. My marriage is wonderful. We have a little house together in the rural countryside. It's wonderful. I have a daughter who's amazing and just inspires me every day to be a child again with her. My relationship with my in-laws is good. My relationship with my mom is pretty good, all things considered. My relationship with my dad's getting better. I'm writing. I have a job I like. It's completely different. I just don't.

hold all that negative emotion in my head anymore. And I take myself lightly a little bit nowadays, which is good. So good. Adam, so good to speak with you. Really grateful for you sharing your story and, being so vulnerable. I know it's going to help a lot of people. I want to give you the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you offer to maybe the younger you listening right now, especially if they fear becoming like their parents, maybe repeating their parents' story in their own life? What final encouragement or advice would you give?

tools out there that can help you not become like your parents. However, your parents are still within you and there are good things about your parents, even if it's hard to see that right now. But you are the good things about your parents. You are. So you can take those good things and maximize them and minimize the bad things. And that's your choice. You know, there's a lot of tools out there. There's ministries like this to help you kind of cope with the trauma from this event in your life.

there's friends you can have, beautiful relationships are possible, just all things are possible with God and with an openness to good things. It won't always be this bad. And if it is this bad for a long time, God's always with you in that as well.

That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help and keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

I Went Through Fake Love Over and Over Again

2-minute read.

This story was written by Jessica at 36 years old. Her parents never separated. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

I'm my mom's lastborn child. She was married to my older half-sister’s dad. Even when she died one month after my birthday. So my mom committed adultery with my dad. My mom was in the abortion clinic and my father rushed over, threatened her, and stopped her from having an abortion. I’m my dad's only child, but now I'm 36 and my dad still doesn't want anything to do with me. So at times I have thought about why my dad saved me and that I would have been better off up in heaven with Jesus than living this awful life I've been living.

HOW THE DYSFUNCTION MADE HER FEEL

The adultery that my mom committed with my two older half-sisters’ dad (that she was married to) upsets me because she should have never cheated on him with my dad, knowing she never wanted to give me life. And my dad should have never stopped her at the abortion clinic. I’m his only child. I could have been with Jesus rather than living 36 years of pain.

HOW THE DYSFUNCTION IMPACTED HER

Her adultery impacted me. My dad saved me and I ended up being adopted as a baby and then taken out of my adoption home at 7 years old. Then I went into foster care and I was in many different homes and schools my whole life. I went through fake love and rejection over and over again.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

You just have to trust Jesus and get to know Him. I struggle a lot of times and it's not easy, but I try my best.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

They need the love of Jesus Christ.

---

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Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

How To Avoid Falling In Love With A Jerk | Dr. John Van Epp : #174

What if the person you fall for isn’t just a choice, but a pattern?

Most people think love is about chemistry, attraction, or finding “the one.” But according to today’s guest, the heart alone is not enough.

If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, your wounds can shape who you trust, who you’re attracted to, and what feels “normal” in a relationship. Without realizing it, you might be drawn to someone familiar, not because they’re good for you, but because they feel like the past.

In this episode, we explore how to build love with both your heart and your head. We talk about repetition compulsion, red flags, rushing trust or physical intimacy, and how to tell whether someone is actually capable of healthy love.

My guest is Dr. John Van Epp, relationship expert, counselor, and author of How to Avoid Falling in Love with a Jerk.

If you’ve ever wondered, “Why am I attracted to people who aren’t good for me?” or “How do I avoid repeating my parents’ marriage?” this episode is for you.

Get our book: It’s Not Your Fault

Check other free resources

How to Avoid Falling in Love with a Jerk by Dr. John Van Epp

Love Thinks

Head Meets Heart course

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

John Van Epp (00:00)

Dr. John, so good to have you on the show. Glad you can make it. So great to be here, Joey. Your book is amazing. I'm excited to dive into it. Before I do, I'm so curious of the why behind the book. Take me, you would, to the moment where you just felt like you had to release this book. You had to put it in people's hands. Something that was becoming very apparent to me was that people that came in for counseling that had relationship problems, many of those struggles, regrets that drove them into counseling, when you looked

historically, if they had just done a few things differently, that they might have really ended up in a completely different type of relationship or maybe even with a different person. I found a lot of people said, if only I knew then what I know now. That was a phrase that just kept repeating, like certain things I didn't see or they said, I wish I would have paid more attention to what I saw. Those were the two regretting comments that I heard.

over and over and over. ⁓ I saw it, but I just didn't make a big deal out of it. I overlooked it. I minimized it. Or I just didn't know what to look for. And now three years in or 13 years in, you know, now I see things that never ever changed. It just kept repeating. And I saw the I saw a little bit of the red flags or I never looked in this direction. I never paid attention to it. And that's really I, you know, next time I'm to pay attention to those things. But it

That's after people have been really wounded and hurt. So I wanted to get them at that kind of critical time to then bring into their awareness, you have agency in how you do a relationship, how you bond to another person, and definitely you have agency in being able to figure out what that person would be like 10 years later in a relationship with you. There is a way to kind of look through that.

know, window to be able to think about what this person is going to be like for you. That is not just something that happens automatically. And even as a Christian, as a believer, this is not something that just the Lord is doing for you. The Lord wants to equip you to be discerning. It's a phenomenal kind of core scripture. And when Paul wrote to the Philippians in the Bible there, it says, I pray that your love may abound more and more.

in all knowledge and discernment. And love of the heart needs to be balanced by discernment of the mind that God has given us. And the head and the heart really are meant to work together. I love that. So the way I see you working is you're preventing the heartache, the pain, the cycle of dysfunction and brokenness that could happen if they don't take your advice. The biggest fear, Dr. John, that my audience feels is repeating their parents' marriage on their own. They are really afraid.

of that script following them into their own marriages. One of the ideas that stuck out in your book so much was the idea of repetition compulsion. For anyone unfamiliar, what is repetition compulsion? When we are growing up, we have experiences and some fill us up and some leave us vacant. Maybe it's a vacancy because we've been hurt. Maybe it's a vacancy because something we needed didn't get met, but-

There is kind of, if you just think of it like, you know, all children growing up from a newborn all the way to being launched by the home, you know, what we share in common is we need to be loved, we need to feel important, we need to be encouraged and validated. There's certain, I would call them human universal needs that we have growing up. So if I reach adulthood and I've got

some real vacancies or I have some real unfinished areas of a parent letting me know that I'm important and significant. You would think I'd be attracted to somebody that makes me feel important and significant, but I tend to go to either somebody that's gonna do that in a pretty demonstrative way or somebody that doesn't do it hoping to change the ending. I didn't get it from that parent.

So I want to find somebody that's kind of like the parent in some ways and finish what was unfinished, change the ending, get that vacancy filled. So people tend to be attracted. That's not the only driver, by the way. That's one driver, but it's not necessarily the driver for everybody. So the person that does that ends up getting involved with a partner that.

just seems to hold back. They don't really, I don't know, they have a hardness to them. So they're trying to soften that partner up to give them the love and the validation that they never got from their home. So they are composed to repeat the kind of the dynamic situation. And it could be, you know, a woman with her mother. It doesn't have to be the opposite sex parent, by the way, if we're talking about heterosexual relationships. So it doesn't really matter. is.

kind of the system, the dynamic that was going on with a parent or caregiver of significance. So it doesn't really matter. It could be a guy with his father. But the point being, because it's unfinished, because it didn't really fully meet the need, they want to recreate it, hoping that they can then change the ending. What sadly happens most times is they recreate it and it just ends up recreating over and over and over the painful dynamic.

that they experienced in childhood. So I'll give you a second, kind of like a swing to the opposite. Now I need to find somebody that really demonstrates love and significance of me, like validation of me in a pretty kind of extreme way. So now I am prone to love bombs, right? Love bomb is where they like go overboard and they just give it like, so repetition compulsion is where I recreate the same kind of deficiency

of what didn't happen for me, hoping to change it. Love bomb is where I find somebody that's like going overboard. Many of the people that do love bombs though have a lot of narcissism, I find. And so that ends up backfiring because now you're getting it, you know, in rather than in pints, you're getting it in gallons, but all of a sudden something about that person bothers you. You have a conflict or something and you notice that.

you know, love bomb people, people that really can turn it on have swings. And a lot of times now they swing to become really a pretty difficult person to be in a relationship with. So now you have your need getting met on the one hand, but as soon as you, you know, do something to upset them, offend them, bother them, you.

you get really shut down, maybe you get violence, maybe you get anger, maybe you get shouting, maybe you get the silent treatment, maybe you get like an absence of any affection and all of a sudden now, now you're back in, you know, kind of the same thing periodically swinging back and forth. So both those can be very problematic. That makes so much sense. I always baffled me growing up like.

Why does a girl who grew up with an abusive father end up with an abusive husband? But it makes so much sense how this kind of unresolved relationship, unresolved aspect of the life, that the needs that they never got filled, they'd be seeking to change the ending to that story by finding someone who looks and feels very similar. There's a bit of uncomfortability with what is healthy then too. I mean, and there's a number of things that go into this, not that complicated too much, like,

If it's a female, she was hurt by her father. He was rough, he was violent, he was abusive, but he was also the template for what masculinity is too. Now a guy that is soft and tender and able to be affectionate and transparent, now he looks wimpy and weak and effeminate. She may not be able to sort all that out in her mind, but there is that as well that's working against her. She has to reconstruct what

feminine and masculine looks like in healthy ways. And that's why I say just getting her act together as a woman doesn't automatically change her templates of what she's looking for and what she thinks of and what she finds attractive. Like she is more attractive maybe to the kind of masculinity in that template that actually was formed by an abuser, by somebody that was violent. So now her

her actual sexual attraction is now impacted as well. And so these are things that I say, hey, it's one thing to work on self and improve self, but you also have to improve what you're looking for and what you're attracted to. That becomes something that is equally important or you will find that the relationship with a unhealthy partner will undo all of your healthy gains as an individual. Wow.

I know if you heard what I just said, but this is, I found this over and over in counseling. I'd counsel somebody that came out of a bad relationship. They'd work on themselves for two years, get involved after two years, they're finally functioning well, feeling good. You know, they're not on any meds. They're doing great. They get involved with somebody. They do the relationship poorly. Don't use good discernment. The person they get involved with is unhealthy. And I watched two years of their personal healthy gains all unravel.

in just a matter of weeks and a few months. Wow, no, that's profound. And I love this focus you have on, you know, kind of the spouse selection idea. And I want to go deeper into all of this. I'll add one other thing that kind of frustrated me. So I told you in the very beginning, I pretty much entered into the divorce world. So I've not been divorced. My wife and I got married. She was 19 and I was 21. So like I told you, we were young. I was going into my senior year of college. So

⁓ What's my point is that I never really lived in that divorce world. Then when I had a counseling practice, obviously I worked with people that were going through divorce sometimes, people that had already been divorced and were on a new relationship. I had some of that. Well, I have this material and so I started doing these Saturday seminars. Well, who shows up? I have 50 people in a Saturday seminar and 40 of them are divorced. ⁓

I'm like, my gosh, when I got into that world, would say Joey went through divorce. He's going through a divorce or he's been through a divorce. He's had a heart and he goes to, you know, a local, a lot of times it's a ministry, a divorce recovery class. So now he's in the divorce group and then comes John and John says, Hey, I want to help you guys who've been divorced, learn a game plan of choosing the next partner and being ready to do it differently. I always say,

You know, we have that been there, done that. Knowing what wrong looks like doesn't automatically teach you what right looks like. Just because I know what wrong looks like. That's why you said the counterfeit is a perfect example. Just knowing one counterfeit doesn't tell you maybe another one or another one. And it definitely doesn't tell you what right. Teach them what right looks like. And then all the counterfeits start to be exposed. So I said, just because you were in a marriage relationship where there maybe was, you know, continual pattern of problems that

You know, you wish you want to have it differently in the future. And they all nod their heads, they get that. But this is what Joey says. Joey says, you know, I'm still kind of working on my pain. The last thing I want is another relationship. You know, I get what you're saying, but I'll take your class later. And Joey skips the class. I heard this over and over. When in pain or when wounded, they want to grieve the past. They want to rebuild the past. They want to get their act together.

And then someday they'll get ready for the next relationship, but not now. They don't want to do it at the same time. They don't want to overlap it. They want to, you know, rehabilitate self first. Okay. And then after six months, it might be a year, might be a year and a half, I go to the group meeting and, Hey, where's Joey? I haven't seen him for a couple of weeks. I don't know. Let's call him up. Hey Joey, man, what's going on? I haven't seen you in group, you know, and divorce. Oh, yeah. I'm not really feeling the need to do it. How come? Well, I met somebody.

So here's Joey, over and over these people that have been in wounded relationships try to heal from the wound, but they don't develop any kind of a different game plan of what to do in the next relationship. And before they ever can even be presented with there's something out there to do it differently, they think having done it wrong or having had the wounds automatically teach them how to do it right.

So they don't feel any need, they don't feel compelled or motivated. And next thing you know, blink their eyes, they're in a new relationship and maybe they have somebody that looks very different, but many of the same kind of like internal gears, kind of the same drive shaft that drove a lot of the problems in the past, that's still going on relationally for them. And next thing you know, maybe it's a different face.

but a lot of the same repeated problems and boom, they're back into the pain again. And that's where, you know, I do my best to try to convince people, hey, no matter how much pain you are in something of the past, this content will not only help you work through the past, while working through the past, it will also give you a completely different trajectory of what you want to do going into the future. That's so good. I wanted to transition into the RAM though.

So this is obviously what you teach. if you would, what is the Ram goes to 30,000 foot view and how maybe more specifically to my audience, like how might this help them avoid repeating, you know, the dysfunction that they saw in their parents' marriage. For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault.

guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face, cope in healthy ways instead of falling into bad habits, improve their relationship with their parents, navigate the holidays and other life events, and build healthy relationships and so much more. One Amazon review said this, this book is packed full of really practical help. If you come from a broken family, or even if you don't, but you love someone that does, this book is so helpful. I can't recommend this enough.

By the way, it's a quick read and it doesn't need to be read cover to cover. Since it's in question and answer format, you can just read one of the questions and one of the answers. And so if you want to join the thousands of people who've gotten a copy, just go to restoredministry.com slash books to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restoredministry.com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes. When I started my counseling practice,

I was trying to talk to people about relationships and it's so confusing to be honest. So I began to put like on a sheet of paper when I'd be talking to them, like scales. And so we would talk about like, you know, where do think you are in knowing this person? Cause this is very bonding. This is part of how we connect, but knowing them and trusting them are very different. So.

Maybe you know them a little bit, but you trust them a lot. So all of a sudden I started to define what I call the universal connections in relationship. So if a relationship is a connection, what are the very specific bonds or connections that comprise a relationship? So I ended up putting it into a graphic.

Probably lot of your listeners and viewers don't remember the old graphic equalizer, but even on my car, I can open up the equalizer still on my little screen for my audio and move levels up and down. you had all kinds of, right? So it's like the equalizer of your relationship bond. You can have one be really strong, pretty intense, and another one be really weak. So you can have mixed feelings. It's like ⁓ the sound.

of the relationship comes out of all these levels and how they are moving up and down. So I do have a picture of it here that maybe your viewers can see. Can you see that okay? Is it blurry? Yeah, it's coming through. We'll show this in the show notes. We'll place it in the show notes so people want to pull it up while you're talking, they could look at it as well. So if I just start over here, just think of it from each one of these. How well I know you. So these can go up and down.

how much I trust you, these can go up and down, how much reliance has to do with, think of it like how you meet needs. So how do I meet your needs? How do you meet my needs? So these are two-way streets. can know you really well, but maybe you don't know me at all. So I can feel like you don't really know me very well, but I sure know you because you talk all the time and you tell me everything, but you never ask me any questions. So you don't really know me. So you can kind of use this to think of it like how I.

understand you and relate to you in a relationship, but I could also turn it around and talk about how you relate to me. So not to get too confusing, but each of these are kind of two-way streets. So how do I meet your needs might be very different than how you meet my needs. Maybe I do everything to meet your needs, but you don't do anything to meet my needs. So the way that I can rely on you to meet my needs is really low, but the way that you rely on me to meet your needs is really high. ⁓ commitment is how...

much of a priority, how invested, how much I kind of like put into this relationship. And then touch, touch could be just, you know, ⁓ a fist bump, affection, friendship, you know, it could be a parent and a child, you know, a hug. ⁓ It could be playful where you're wrestling around. mean, touch is touch, but because in some relationships they're sexual, touch can be sexual. What I found as I kind of came up with these five areas,

Each one of them, you might say, on their own had a whole litany, meaning a whole huge amount of support and research theory, all kinds of things, to say that this is a major source of how we bond or connect or feel close to another person. Trust. You can find whole books and research studies and go to a library and a university and you'll have shelves all on information about

the importance of trust. You can find that on need fulfillment. mean, there's whole theories about how, you know, a relationship is how I do for you and you do for me and need fulfillment. And then can find the same about commitment. I found all of these on their own were kind of positioned as a major source of bond, but nobody had put them all together. So I said, you know what? I get that they're all important on their own, but they're also interactive because they're

parts of a whole and the whole is a relationship. So a relationship is how I know, trust, rely, commit and touch another person. these are operating to create a feeling of connection or bond, okay? Almost like the ingredients of a relationship. They are the ingredients of a relationship. But sometimes when we think of an ingredient,

by the way, we think of like baking a cake and they're all independent, but they all are playing off each other's. If I know somebody a lot and trust them and rely on them and all of a sudden they break my trust and my trust goes down, that's going to interact the other ones. It's dynamic. Yeah. It's very dynamic, very interactive. So we got to keep that in mind when we talk about them. So I had developed this, I was using it in my counseling and when I decided to

develop a game plan for singles, there is an ⁓ application of this to building a new relationship. This application doesn't apply to your marriage necessarily because Joey, you're eight years into a marriage, you said, and that was probably a couple of years prior to that. This is a long-term relationship with your spouse that all these levels, you might say, you're just trying to keep them up. Because life is always like,

taking your attention and your commitment to other places. I got to do this, I got to do that. know, honey, what about me? You know, you're like, okay, we got to get back on bringing this back up and something's going to interrupt this area of your affection or your sex life. And this is going to go down. You'll be like, babe, we got to talk about our sex life because we've kind of like been, you know, missing each other. So you got to figure out. So long-term relationships, these levels are always what I call deflating and we have to have a way. It becomes a great

kind of ⁓ strategy to sit down with that person in a long-term relationship, like a spouse or like your kids even, and say, life is bringing these down, let's figure out a way to bring them back up, okay? That's very different than building a new relationship. And so we're gonna talk about dating. So here, let's move all these levels down. So now this is ⁓ more like ⁓ a short-term relationship now.

the beginnings of a relationship, like how do I get started? So I meet the person and right here, the no, it goes up a little bit. Well, what are we talking about? Well, I call it the three T's. We're talking, that's one thing. So I'm getting to know them by I share things, they share things and conversation. Well, nowadays we text, so we're texting. Maybe we're phone calls with.

kind of like FaceTime, so we're kind of looking at each other. But hopefully we're having some more in-depth conversations. But I think there's a lot of people that the no is pretty low in a dating relationship because if they're texting, they're just kind of texting the here and now. And they're not talking history, they're not talking like the last, they're not talking growing up and family stuff. It's a pretty kind of shallow talking. So let's just keep it real for a minute that the no,

When we say talking, it might not be as in depth of talking as what you'd really want so that the nose stays down even if the talking has been going on for a while. But that's not the only T, togetherness is another one. So you got to be with somebody and see different moods. So you got to see them in a happy mood and angry mood. You got to see them when they're pissed off at you, right? So I kind of joke with singles a lot of times when I'm teaching them.

You know, this is why you need to get somebody pissed off on the first date, right?

speaker-1 (23:24)

Yeah, you guys see how they're going to treat you when they're mad. Well, that doesn't work.

John Van Epp (23:29)

because you can't manufacture that kind of situ... You gotta wait for it. So the third T is time. So moods, situations, that's the togetherness. Talking, that's important. But you can't get around time. It has to happen to naturally, organically bring some of these things to the surface. So if I know them here, the simple kind of rule to follow, we call it the safe zone rule. It's what helps...

protect, we got to guard our hearts in a relationship and we have to also keep our eyes wide open and getting to know this person. So the safe zone rule simply says, when you're building a new relationship, don't let any of the levels get higher than one to the left. So don't get to know somebody here, but trust them way up here. Well, why would you ever do that? Well, because you get to know a few things. We talked about love bombs. Well, that can make me feel

really great and safe and good with the person. So all of a I trust them way up here. We talked about projecting onto them kind of a, wow, you have some of the qualities that idealize, but they are coming from an unhealthy dysfunctional parent and I'm projecting that on you or I'm going to try to finish the ending like we talked about the repetition. So all of a sudden, anytime you trust more than you know,

you create this great vulnerability. Does that make sense? 100%. We can do this as well. Now this would be where maybe I'm a caregiver. So I always step in to take care of somebody. So I get involved with somebody that's not the healthiest person in the world. They've got a lot of needs and they're not really doing a lot for me except giving me an opportunity to do a lot for them. So I don't know them real well. I don't even have the best of opinions of them, but I am like,

wholly invested in meeting needs and caring and giving. so again, what's going on? Anytime a level gets higher, if I keep moving over, higher than any to the left, I am creating a bond that actually is competing with what I know. So it's starting to create a bond of the heart that is shutting down the judgment of the mind. It's shutting it down. Well, look at it. I don't know if you can see the whole board.

because it keeps moving on me. You see the whole board. It's coming through, yeah. Trust and touch are high and that's, I would call that, that's mainstream dating culture today. Interesting. Everybody doesn't get to know very much about somebody, nothing deep, nothing historical, not a whole lot of good content to really construct an accurate understanding of the person. So they don't know the person deeply like that.

but their belief in that person goes way up and they become sexually involved with that person. And the trust and the touch create an intense bond that actually shuts down the getting to know process. So they don't really get to know, they don't even feel they need to get to know those things. They've got kind of the bond, but it's a weak bond in the long run of a relationship. And it creates tremendous vulnerability.

Time goes on, the three T's, they talk, they begin to realize they need to talk more, they run into barriers, they realize it doesn't, know, the conversations don't go the way they'd want them to go, but they're already sleeping with the person and they have this kind of like trust and the reliance now is getting pulled up as well. So the relationship ends up looking like that. And all of a sudden, as this keeps going up, they realize, wow, I don't even.

know who I'm involved with. And so they try to talk to them about something that they want the person to do differently. I wish you would do this for me or that for me, or I wish we could talk about that. And then they get all kinds of defensiveness and anger. And they're like, wow, where did all this come from? Or the person shuts down and withdraws. they're like, now I can't even, I'm trying to like reel them in like a fish. And they're just always swimming away and I can't reel them in. They've shut down on me and they're like, I didn't see this. And I'm now six months in.

And now I'm seeing things, but man, I've been sleeping with them for five of the six months or five and a half. You two weeks in we had sex and it was great. You know, I thought I felt loved. I felt close. This happens over and over and over. So then they get stuck and six months turns into two years and they're finally like, I'm done. I'm out of here. Now they are ⁓ bitter.

Inside, they're a bit cynical, they're jaded, they feel like, you know, I've been taken advantage of, they feel victimized, and now they're gonna go into a new relationship? And you multiply this by multiple relationships, and this is the world of dating that's going on. So we have a world of wounded people, not only from upbringing, because a lot of, you know, families have been broken families and have a lot of baggage. So it's a minority of families that are what I call high functioning.

in this culture that we live in. So you come into that and then you have, we're doing relationships poorly out of the safe zone. we're believing that that is the norm. This is how it's supposed to be done. Trust goes up high, sex happens right away, and everything else is gonna just slowly follow. But what happens is by doing it that way, we get ⁓ fooled.

It shuts down the discernment, I call it the discernment of the mind to judgment. know, the bond of the heart overrides the judgment of the mind and you don't get to know the right stuff. And as a result, the relationship goes on too long. You're not using discernment. And when you finally are done with it, it leaves you with all kinds of baggage that you're gonna bring into your next relationships. So, Roz, yeah, so just to repeat for everyone, I recommend in the show notes, we'll link to the chart.

that Dr. John is referencing so you can see what it looks like and it's basically a spectrum, like a high and low spectrum of no trust, reliance, commitment and touch. And so I'm sure there's so much more to this, but it's profound and it makes so much sense. And so, you know, I think a lot of our audience is probably in that first spot of like getting to know the person that they're with. And like you said, even throughout the relationship, you're always coming back to this and trying to inflate it. You mentioned ⁓ talk and togetherness. What was the third T? So I to make sure I had that.

Okay. So are there any, if there's like one piece of advice that you have for people, maybe in this stage. I'll add one more thing. When you look at this, getting to know if this is, if this is kind of like the ceiling setter. So as no goes up, it should allow these others to determine whether they go up or down, but you don't want any of them to go higher than any to the left. so if no is the furthest to the left.

It is the ceiling setter for everything else. So just think of a drop-down box. What are the content areas to get to know? If no is so important, tell me what to get to know about somebody. There are five areas to get to know, and I put them as a separate chapter in my book. So I have five chapters. Each chapter is on a major area that is important to get to know.

that is not only, I call it windows and mirrors. It's not only important to get to know about yourself, that's part of your own personal growth. But this is how you will learn discernment. You get to know this area about another person, you start mixing these five areas all together and you have a very well-rounded ability to discern what that person is like now, as well as where they're going. And what are the maybe potential pitfalls

that that person needs to deal with. Maybe they have some issues that they're not even dealing with. You will discern those more clearly with these five areas to get to know. So my book has five chapters, one on each of these areas of the RAM. So there is a chapter on know, there's a chapter on trust, a chapter on rely, touch, commit, right? But there is also five additional. So a total of 10 core chapters, five additional on the key areas to get to know.

And what you get to know is what I call using your head. Being able to build a relationship with actual agency. Hey, I'm not gonna let trust just move on its own. I am going to be involved in how much trust I give. I'm gonna be involved in how I meet a need or what I let that person do for me. I'm gonna have boundaries and parameters and I'm gonna have involvement. And so I am going to learn how to quote, run the relationship.

with some involvement with this model. And that's what the five chapters are. That's the heart. I'm going to have some involvement in the way that I bond in my heart and use my head. And that's why I say my book, you know, all of my material related to that book content is basically defining clearly what it means to have the head and the heart work together in a relationship so that they're not in competition, they're not one overriding the other.

They are in concert, they are in harmony, and that's how God made us. He made us a head and a heart to work together, especially in relationships. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so,

If you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry.com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes. Beautiful. I love it. And ⁓ I know we don't have time to go into those five additional things, five ways to get to know people, but just to tease it for everyone so they can go more deeper into the book. What are those five ways that we can get to know someone? I never give them out because then they're like, I'll give you, I'll give you a two. So one is family stuff.

speaker-1 (33:44)

know it, I've heard it all, but...

John Van Epp (33:49)

So what I found is that people do tell a few stories about families, but they don't really know how to figure out what that person took out of the family. So I think any of the people you've worked with or the people that have been following you that had some real hardships in their family, they know it's not what happened to you, it's what you did with it. And of course, it's important what happened to you. I'm not saying that that's not valuable, not important, not meaningful, but what you do with it,

I mean, that's the ultimate determiner of who you are and where you're going in life. So how do I figure out not only what happened in this other person's, I mean, if that's so important for me, it's equally important for the person I'm dating. 100%. And getting to know them. So how can I figure out not only what happened to them, but I need to figure out what they're taking out of it because I might not be seeing what they're taking out of it right in this moment in our dating relationship.

But if I get to know the right stuff about them through talk, togetherness over time, I can really discern what they're taking out. And that will be strongly predictive of what they're gonna be like maybe in the future that doesn't show up right in the present. Okay, so family stuff, family background, what they took out of it needs to be way more than just telling a few stories about upbringing your childhood, okay? The second area.

And it's the fifth in my book, I go through them almost like how they are progressive in some ways. So they are like an onion, you have to keep peeling layer after layer after layer. So all five have different layers. You get them to know them on the surface and you go a little deeper, a little deeper. So it's not like one naturally leads the other, but the one that really, I would say, starts to pull it all together is getting to know somebody's conscience. And this is a term that

is interesting. We think of like getting to know their character, but I like the term the conscience. And the conscience is that very kind of like interactive part of your mind that observes you, observes other people. It's like the self observer. It's like, you know, you're not just looking through the window of your eyeballs and seeing the world. There's part of you that is watching yourself. So you walk into a situation and ⁓ somebody says something to you.

and you kind of react to them. You get a little bit like, ⁓ and then they react to you. And now, and all of a sudden there's part of you that steps out and is like, wow, John, looks like you're getting a little bit ticked off at this person. It's like my self observer. That's part of what the conscience does, but the conscience has some guidelines to how I ought to behave. And so it's like, John, you're getting a little bit angry with your boss.

over just what they told you about the weekend and what they watched on the news and you disagree with them and what they watched on the news and do you really want to argue with your boss? So my commentator, my self-observer has a value, an ethic, moral. It has like a code and it's observing me, but it's also pointing out you're kind of breaking your code right now by coming up against your boss in this, you're going to be in an argument.

Do you really want to have this argument with your boss? This is not about work. This is about what was on the news and what's happening in the world. And I don't think this is a good idea. And that's the conscience. Everybody has some form of that. Some people have a really strong observer where they're always like self-conscious. They're always like under the light bulb of, you know, analyzing and watching themselves. And some people have a really weak conscience and they act stupid.

And you're like, didn't you think about you're acting stupid? They don't have any kind of a self-observer. And some people have different kinds of codes. Some people have a code that is like the Christian code, like do unto others as you'd want them to do unto you. And other people have a code, get what you can get. And that's how they live. And so the moral code and the self-observer is part of the way that our minds function.

speaker-1 (37:43)

I didn't

John Van Epp (38:08)

And it is under that umbrella that it's called the conscience. Well, if you think about it, my conscience is pretty important to who I am and how I live life. Whether I'm a big risk taker, whether I am nice to people, whether I'm offensive, whether I apologize, whether I am forgiving of others, whether I am like, know, burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice and you're dead to me. You know, how do I function in life? What's my code? That's my conscience.

All that goes into my conscience. You better believe that's a major determiner, a major predictor of how I'm going to live my life. As I get to know this person and I'm dating them, I need to know how to figure out their conscience. Absolutely. Because their conscience is going to be one of the strongest predictors of how they're going to treat me. And if I'm aligning my life with them, where they go and what they do and how they handle things with their conscience,

I'm gonna be part of it. If they're unforgiving, then I'm gonna have to live with an unforgiving person. Maybe one of my parents is going to do something to them and they're like, I'm not gonna forgive them. Well, that's gonna be awkward. I guess I can't have a relationship with that parent anymore because now you wrote them off. so I can't view that their conscience is just their thing and has nothing to do with me. A relationship joins two people.

more and more into one. It's not just marriage, you become one. All relationships join you to some degree in a connection with that other person. The deeper you go in that relationship, when it's dating and then it's sexual and romantic, the deeper it goes, the more that oneness, that joining, that, think about the threads of the fabric of your life and the threads of the fabric are starting to get interwoven. And so how they function,

is in very many ways going to impact your life. And so the conscience, their family stuff, what they took out of it, what they wanted to change. I'll give you one more thing, the change factor. This is in the beginning of my book and it isn't one of the five, but it is an important area that predicts how those five areas of getting to know those five areas, that's a dropdown box under the note, how they're going to deal with it when there's something they need to improve on. So the change factor is

how motivated and willing and actually engaging are they in making a change in their life when it doesn't sit right with you? I'm not saying that I need to tell my wife, you've been married eight years, it's going to be 47 for me. We've been together a long time. I love it. I just had a birthday and turned 68. I see the big seven oak on the horizon. I'm not real happy with that one, but it's better than the alternative as they always say.

But here's the point is that, you I didn't marry my wife to change her. I actually, literally, as a 19 year old, I thought about this. She changes me and I like it. She makes me somebody different than I would have been on my own. I like what she brings out of me. But with that being said, I will tell you this. There are things that I've said to my wife that I wanted her to change. mean, little things like, you know, please don't do that that way or that bugs me or, know, or, and she said that to me. So.

Just think about what 46 years would be like with somebody that they're always defensive and blocking and they don't ever make a change that is important to you. Well, maybe if it's a little thing, that's one. You can live with it. I can overlook that. You're never gonna really change that about yourself. But there's some significant things that if they don't have the ability to change. So I actually, in the book, I'm not gonna take time to do this, but I say there are four

clear ingredients, all four are essential for somebody to be able to make changes in their life. And you need to be able to evaluate all four of these ingredients to determine the degree of change factor this person has. you need to look at, again, windows and mirrors. I need to look in the mirror and see, I have the change factor in these four areas? Because these four areas work together.

to really produce change. And if I look at major things that I've dealt with in my own life and changed, all four of these ingredients were part of it. So when I look at this person and I want to say, do they have the change factor? Because I want them to have that flexibility and openness to try to change just like I have. I want it to match. I want us both to be, hey, we're in this relationship to become better people than we could be on our own.

and you are open to me to working with the change factor as needed, and I'm open to you to working on change factor as needed. And together, that is going to give us kind of like the system of success in our relationship. It's going to be a system of success because you have that openness and I have that openness. But here are the actual ingredients to measure. It's not just what you say, it's whether you have these ingredients. So anyway, we deal with that in the first few chapters of book because

⁓ I define a jerk or a jerkette, male or female, doesn't matter, anybody, any type of person can be kind of labeled jerk when they really, no matter what they say, they don't have much of the change factor. It's the lack of change factor that you could be very reductionistic. know, whatever problems they have, if they're working through them and coming out on the other side and they're making changes.

They're not a jerk. They're a great person in progress. They're an unfinished human being, but they're working and you can see it going. But you know, it's when they don't have that change factor that sometimes, you know, that one thing that maybe it's a temper or maybe it's a bad attitude or maybe it's a lack of taking you into account when you wish that they would. But all of a sudden, you know, they didn't just do it once or twice. But now, as you look at the last two years, it is a regular reoccurring pattern.

And even though you brought it up to a half a dozen times in a nice way, it never really changes. And if it's a pretty significant issue and it's never changing, then you start to say to yourself, man, what a jerk, you know? And that's because they're missing the change factor. So fascinating, John. There's so much good in your book. I appreciate everything you've communicated here. If people want to dive in deeper and get the book and follow you, how do they do that?

Yeah, the book can get on Amazon. It's just how to avoid falling in love with a jerk. We always added jerkette to the program because I didn't want anybody to think I'm- Jerk is really generic for any human being, okay? It is not a gender-related term, but I think people tend to associate it with guys. So, you know, when the book first got published, I did get some hate mail from guy organizations that were very sensitive to nail bashing. And I'm like, you got to read at least-

the first four pages of the book to realize I'm not doing mail bashing. It's just being used in a very general way. But ⁓ on Amazon, how to avoid falling in love with a jerk. I actually have a website that has Head Meets Heart, which is kind of an online course I can do at home. And maybe we can figure out a discount code that you can put out on your site for anybody that might want to do that course, where it goes through the book content, but they kind of watch videos of myself and Dr. Morgan Cutlip, who's my oldest daughter.

So she's worked with me and kind of followed in my footsteps and is doing a tremendous ministry and work on her own now as well as ⁓ with me. So she's very much established herself in her own right with her own books getting published. But we do the videos together and kind of like talk through the course material that's basically paralleling the book. So reading the book, doing the course, Head Meets Heart, that's on a site called My Love Thinks.

So, Love Thinks is our primary website. My Love Thinks is a website with a blog and a podcast that we did and courses that they can purchase and things like that. Amazing. We'll link to all of that in the show notes. And yeah, we appreciate your offer for the discount code. So, we'll talk after and we'll throw that in the show notes for you guys as well. But Dr. John, so good to have you. We'll have to have your daughter as well. I learned a lot reading your book and I've read a lot of these type of books. So, there's a lot of value in it.

And I would say, yeah, especially if you're someone who, you know, you're afraid of maybe repeating what you saw in your parents' marriage. You know that it's not just about working on yourself that's part of the equation, but it's really important that you pick the right person. I couldn't recommend it more. So definitely go check out the book, How to Avoid Falling in Love with a Jerk. Doug, John, I want to give you the final word. So first off, really glad that you came on the show. I know we're all better for it.

But if you were to move all of our listeners, you know, think of the young men or the young women listening right now with a final word, what final advice or encouragement would you give to them, especially if they're maybe a little bit discouraged, intimidated by this idea of building love when they really didn't see that growing up? Well, I think the final word ⁓ is kind of like a two-prong. ⁓ The first is that relationships don't run themselves. They don't just happen. Love doesn't run itself. Love doesn't, like our relationship with the Lord, for those of you who are

walking with the Lord, it doesn't run itself. I have to carve out time to spend with the Lord. If I don't and I don't read the scriptures, I start to slowly trail away. And that just tells you that I have to have a plan. I have to have an involvement. I have to use what I call my agency in my relationship with God. And if it's true for my relationship with God, it is even more true for my relationship with friends. ⁓

maintain them. I've got to keep them up. I've got to decide who I want to be a friend with and who I think is probably not real great for me. And I've got a sense of boundaries on what we actually do together. my agency is so important in my involvement. But I want you to see that as opportunistic. Man, if everything was fatalism and determinism, if it was all determined for you and you had no involvement, you're just like you got nothing. You're powerless. But you are a powerful

human being is how God made you, how God wants to relate with you because God wants to empower you to be actively running your relationships. So regardless of what has happened in your past, that agency is renewed day by day, today and tomorrow will get renewed again for you to be able to make decisions in your relationships, to be involved in it, to rely on the Lord helping to guide you. There's a

Another verse in Philippians, I told you the prayer of, may your love abound all the more in knowledge and all discernment, right? But there's another one I would give you. It's interesting if you read chapter two verses one all the way to 12 and 13, maybe even 14, right around there. It's a very long passage and a lot of it sounds like it's all about, you know, what Jesus did on the cross. He came and He,

right on the cross and he is a phenomenal kind of passage. Probably some say it's the strongest passage about Jesus being God, you know, that he was in the form of God, but considered, you know, did not consider being equal with God something to be held onto, but put it aside to come to die on the cross. So we have this great passage. You say, well, what's that all about? If you read verses one and two, it starts by saying in your relationships,

with one another, have the same attitude that we saw in Christ Jesus. That whole wonderful passage about Jesus is giving us an example of how we should act in our relationship. This is how God acted in relationship with you. This is an example of how you should act in your relationships. And you get to verse 12 and it says, therefore, let me just give you a conclusion. And it's this really kind of crazy verse that people never really put in context.

of what it's about. says, therefore, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. And you say, ⁓ that's all about my salvation. The whole context is relationships, which is the core of working out our salvation. You could put the word relationship in there rather than salvation and it would make perfect sense in context.

Hey, you work out your relationships with a bit of fear and trembling, right? Be thoughtful, know how to do it, be planful, don't just take it for granted. But the word work is an interesting word. means carry it, you put in effort, dig in, exercise it. And then the word for it is God who works in you is in the language that Paul wrote in when he were way back 2000 years ago, it's

It's the word, ⁓ energase is how you pronounce it, from which we get energized. God's energizing you while you put in your effort and like put kind of like your hand on the steering wheel and your foot on the pedal and you're driving the vehicle, but God's providing the gas, the energy. And he's energizing your willpower, like your motivation and your performance, what you do. Work out your relationships.

for it is God who is energizing you to will and to do of his good pleasure. I would say, listen, regardless of whatever has happened to you or what you have done in the past, the decisions you make today with your agency to work out your relationships with the energizing of God, the decisions you make today can change the whole direction of your tomorrow. Regardless of what happened yesterday, today you have agency.

Today, you can work out your relationships. Today, you can make decisions and involvement with the strength and the Spirit of God differently than anything in the past that happened to you or that you did. And those acts of your obedience to Christ, your engagement in your relationships and seeing, I have an involvement in this. What you do there can change your tomorrow. And every day that it changes, where you end up is a totally different destination.

than where you would if you didn't make the changes.

That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help and keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

The Ultimate Guide for Adult Children of Divorce

19 minute read.

Going through your parents’ divorce is a trauma that few people even get the chance to process today. The truth is that divorce is largely trivialized in our culture, and the effects – though felt deeply – often go unrecognized and therefore untreated. But watching your family fall apart is an incredibly difficult, painful, and often isolating process. That’s why we made this guide. 

Adult children of divorce face many serious struggles that result from the effects of their parents’ divorce such as trust issues, anxiety, faulty coping mechanisms, depression, fear of commitment, and identity struggles. This guide will help you heal from the trauma of your parents’ divorce so you can feel whole again, and break the cycle.

In this article we will cover:

• What it means to be an adult child of divorce

• The long-term effects of parents’ divorce on children

• Why children of divorce sometimes repeat the pattern

• How to heal from your parents’ divorce

• How to build healthy relationships after divorce

• Resources for adult children of divorce

No one should have to experience the breakdown of their family. If you are one of the many adult children of divorce suffering the effects of their parents’ divorce, you’re in the right place. 

What It Means to Be an Adult Child of Divorce

An adult child of divorce is an adult whose parents are divorced. The parents might have gotten divorced when the person was young, or as an adult. Even if your parents divorced when you were young, the effects are frequently long-lasting even into adulthood. Many adult children of divorce experience serious problems and maladaptive habits because of their parents’ divorce–whether they realize this is the cause or not.

The reason for this is twofold: firstly, because the trauma of your parents’ divorce is often trivialized, many children of divorce never get the opportunity to work through the wounds from this event, or even see it as necessary. Secondly, adult children of divorced parents are missing a key part of healthy relationships: modeling. Instead, what they bring into relationships are all the unhealthy habits that they saw in their home growing up.

The Long-Term Effects of Parents’ Divorce on Children

It is difficult to fully understand all the long-term consequences of parents’ divorce on children since every person has a different experience. However, there are common struggles that an adult child of divorce often faces over the course of their life.

Trust issues:

One of the most common and most challenging struggles adult children of divorce face is difficulty trusting others. Because marriage is upheld as an institution that should last forever, and because it is the foundation of a child’s life, when this falls apart, the child is taught that they can’t trust others to uphold their end of the bargain–so to speak.

Furthermore, unfortunately in divorce there can be lying on the part of the parents, either to protect the child from a more painful truth, or because they don’t want to admit the truth (for example, if one parent is having an affair and trying to hide it from their child).

Their model for relationships is one where at least one parent or both didn’t follow through on their vows, so to trust that others will do what they say becomes very difficult.

Fear of commitment:

Fear of commitment is incredibly widespread in our culture today, and the prevalence of divorce is likely a significant contributing factor. We see it not only in our own relationships or in those of people around us, but also in movies, books, and TV shows.

It is completely understandable that someone with divorced parents would be afraid to commit to another person. They believe that by committing themselves they are only setting themselves up to be hurt when the other person inevitably walks away. They see fights, suffering, and a painful breakup as the inescapable reality that awaits them. This is clearly seen in the declining rates of marriage and rising age of those who finally ‘settle down.’

Anxiety in relationships:

Navigating a dating relationship can be one of the most anxiety-inducing and stressful experiences of an adult with divorced parents’ life. Something that is normally a fun and exciting process, turns into a grueling experience that involves a constant stream of questioning, second-guessing, worst-case scenarios, insecurity, and ineffective communication.

Growing up without a healthy relationship model and a fundamental lack of trust in others can make romantic relationships a challenging at best, and nightmarish at worst experience for adult children of divorce.

Identity struggles:

Another common effect of the parents’ divorce on children is an underlying belief that the person is unlovable, unworthy of affection, or unable to be in a healthy relationship. These faulty identity convictions can stem from a misconception that their parents’ divorce was their fault, that they somehow caused or contributed to their separation. Also seeing a parent can walk away, especially if you are a young child, can make you internalize the idea that you are unloveable and that others will always leave.

Normal insecurities that most people face become heightened in children of divorce and connected to their feelings of being unloveable or unworthy.

Emotional instability:

Adult children of divorce also tend to struggle with regulation of their emotions. This is often due to a trauma response that can be triggered by something seemingly innocuous. For example, if their partner mentions a coworker of the other gender, the child of divorce may immediately assume an affair because that is what happened to their parents and react as if that is the case in this instance as well.

Emotional instability can cause problems in relationships with others, ‘proving’ that they are unworthy of love and incapable of intimate relationships.

Why Children of Divorce Sometimes Repeat the Pattern

One of the reasons Restored exists is to help children of divorce end the cycle. The percentage of marriages that end in divorce is higher if one or both partners have divorced parents. The reality for adult children of divorce is that the family instability they experienced growing up has serious implications for their ability to successfully navigate relationships as adults. Adult children of divorce often have problems related to fear of commitment, relationship patterns, trust issues, and attachment wounds which significantly hijack their relationships over the course of their lives–even if the divorce happened years previously.

Here are a few reasons why children of divorce sometimes repeat the pattern:

Relationship Modeling:

Whether it’s learning to play soccer or owning a successful business, almost every skill in life requires a model to learn from. Relationships are no different. What we see in our parents’ relationship is inevitably the basis for our understanding of how relationships work–whether the relationship was successful or not. Of course, no marriage is perfect and every person brings with them dysfunctional tendencies into their relationship. That being said, this is typically much more the case for adult children of divorce. As their model for what relationships look like is a broken marriage, there are even more problems that adult children of divorced parents may have internalized over the years, such as trust issues, fear of commitment, passive aggression, verbal abuse, stonewalling, etc. Adult children of divorce can bring all of these unhealthy habits into a relationship and sabotage it, unless they are very intentional about healing, communication, and growing.

Conflict Avoidance:

One serious problem that many children of divorced parents often face is conflict avoidance. Sometimes this tendency is something that they learned from a parent, sometimes it is because of the conflict they saw in their parents’ marriage–either way it is unhelpful at best and destructive at worst. Conflict avoidance often looks like suppressing your true feelings, lying about how you really feel, growing resentment, and even disassociation. Conflict avoidance is a significant contributor to adult children of divorce repeating the cycle.

Attachment Wounds:

Something that can be hard for others to understand is attachment wounds that adult children of divorce carry with them. Attachment wounds can look like: having intense anxiety when their partner is not around, intense fear of rejection, constantly looking for reassurance, feeling uncomfortable with intimacy, etc. This is an issue that often stems from watching the breakdown of your family and often being separated from a parent as a result. Attachment wounds can be hard for adult children to identify unless pointed out by a third party, as it is all they know and therefore seen by them as ‘normal.’ It makes navigating relationships feel almost impossible at times and can be overwhelming for the partner who may not fully understand what is going on with their partner. 

How to Heal from Your Parents’ Divorce

If you are an adult child of divorce suffering from the family instability you experienced growing up, the most important message we have for you is this: there is hope.

Even if you find yourself in the midst of intense anxiety, trust issues, fear of commitment, attachment wounds, unhealthy relationship patterns, and dysfunctional coping mechanisms, you can feel whole again. Following is a step-by-step guide to healing from your parents’ divorce. If you feel overwhelmed reading through the process, that is normal. You have to take it one small step at a time, and here at Restored we are here to help, support, and cheer you on as you find healing from the trauma of your parents’ divorce.

Acknowledge the wound:

As mentioned earlier, one of the main problems children of divorce face is the normalization of divorce in our culture. Because divorce is so prevalent, it is often difficult for adult children of divorce to see that the family instability and ensuing suffering they experienced truly affected them in a meaningful way. The first step to finding healing from your parents’ divorce, is acknowledging that you were affected. 

Whether it’s in a journal, or in the company of a trusted friend or mentor, or with a skilled therapist, or in prayer, take the time to think back on the breakdown of your family. What happened? How did you feel as it was taking place? What things were said or done that have stuck with you since then? What are possible symptoms you experience that could be related to that event. 

This process of acknowledging the effects of your parents’ divorce can take time. You may have spent years suppressing everything that happened and your feelings about it so undoing that doesn’t happen overnight. The key is to take the time to reflect on this part of your life–even though it is uncomfortable, time consuming, confusing, and painful. You may even feel that you are causing problems by bringing up the past. Trust the process. This acknowledgement is the launching point for feeling whole again.

Process grief:

Revisiting these wounds and painful memories or experiences will most likely lead to you feeling sad, hopeless, betrayed, or angry. This is completely normal. What you experienced should not have happened. It was heartbreaking and traumatic. Grieving your family is a crucial step in the healing process. Again, this will take time, but allow yourself to feel the uncomfortable and painful feelings and give yourself space to properly grieve the loss of your family. Over time, you will feel better.

Stop blaming yourself:

It is common for children of divorce to blame themselves for the breakdown of their families. This happens for a variety of reasons. In some cases, you may have even been told by your parents that it was your fault. This is not true. You should never take responsibility for your parents’ separation. It might feel easier than admitting that your parents made a mistake that hurt you. It might also help you feel in control in a situation in which you were completely helpless. It might help you make sense of something you are otherwise incapable of understanding. But it’s just not true. It was not your fault, period. Understanding this truth at a deep level is essential to the healing process. Often children from broken families blame their family instability on themselves and hold on to intense guilt for years. This can lead to anxiety in different relationships later on. As you process the problems and pain from your parents’ divorce, make sure you recognize that you played no part in your parents’ decision to separate and that you are unable to ‘fix’ it. This will bring freedom and be an important step in the healing from the trauma of your parents’ divorce.

Learn healthy relationship models:

One of the most beneficial things someone who grew up with family instability can do is find a couple to mentor them, officially or unofficially. This is because the relationship patterns children of divorce learn from parents can be hard to identify as well as hard to change. Seeing a functional, loving couple engage in day-to-day interactions, communicate, and do life together helps give an adult child of divorce a new framework for what is healthy and normal in relationships. If you are not sure where to start, ask a pastor, youth minister, school counselor, or trusted adult friend for advice as to where you can find a couple to spend time with occasionally. This may feel awkward or uncomfortable but it is a incredibly worthwhile investment in your well-being and future relationships.

Build emotional resilience:

For adult children of divorce with attachment wounds, this is essential–but not easy. The challenge that comes with trust issues, fear of commitment, and attachment wounds, is that you become more sensitive. Think of it as a soldier with PTSD, maybe he or she has traumatic memories associated with loud noises. In this case, something as innocuous as a balloon popping could trigger a highly intense stress response. An adult child of divorce who grew up with family instability is the same. An objectively small occurrence–such as their loved one not responding quickly to a text message or phone call–can send them into a spiral of despair, assuming the worst. 

Emotional resilience is basically the ability to “bounce back” from events or thought patterns that feel deeply challenging or negative. You build emotional resilience by embracing the negative emotion, while understanding it is not necessarily indicative of reality. You can accept the way you feel without being consumed by your emotions. A helpful strategy is to question the thoughts accompanying your intense negative emotion: is what I’m thinking 100% true? Most of the time it’s an assumption we are making or a conclusion you are jumping to without hard evidence.

How to Build Healthy Relationships After Divorce

• Choosing the right partner

Deciding who to marry is the most important decision you will make in life. While there is no ‘perfect’ man or woman, finding a partner suitable for you is essential to a fruitful, joyful life in which you can thrive. While there is no perfect formula to ensuring you are marrying the ‘right’ person, here are some tips that can help you in your decision-making process:

• Don’t date alone. This sounds funny, but it is very healthy to introduce your significant other to friends and family members you trust and that know you well. Because these people have your best interest at heart, they may be able to spot something you can’t, or will notice if you aren’t being yourself around them. Bring your s/o around to dinners, double dates, or group hangouts and ask your friends’ and family members’ opinion. While this shouldn’t be your only deciding factor (of course), it is helpful to get a more objective point of view from someone who cares about you deeply.

• Find someone who is aligned with your core values. It sounds obvious, but you might be surprised at how many people make major concessions when it comes to their core values with someone they want to marry. It’s hard when you are emotionally involved with someone to end the relationship, and incredibly easy to convince yourself that you will make it work or “compromise.” The best strategy is that if you are not currently in a romantic relationship make a list now of your core values. Such as the faith you want future children to have, where you want to live, how you want to handle finances, etc. If you start dating someone or are already in a relationship, bring it up early. You don’t need to ask the other person how many kids they want on the first date, but don’t let several months go by before broaching important topics.

• Challenge your anxiety. It is common for children of divorce to have a lot of anxiety in relationships–even healthy ones. While peace is a great indicator as to whether or not something is right, it can be hard for adult children of divorce who grew up with family instability, trust issues, fear of commitment and attachment wounds to feel peace amidst all the anxiety they experience. For this reason, we recommend journaling, speaking to trusted advisors and praying continually while discerning marriage with someone. Anxiety may not be an indicator that it is the wrong relationship, but careful consideration and solid advice you can trust are great tools to help with this discernment process.
  

• Communication

Any relationship expert will emphasize the importance of communication in a relationship. Again, this can be challenging for an adult child of divorce who saw unhealthy communication patterns growing up. One of the best things you can do is to let your significant other in on the challenges you face and wounds you have from the breakdown of your family. While you don’t want to do this right away, this information will help your significant other to understand and identify your triggers and coping mechanisms (i.e. withdrawal, anxiety, picking a fight, etc.). This will help the two of you to communicate even when you are struggling with unhealthy relationships patterns.

• Boundaries

Adult children of divorce often learn early on to navigate tension, keep the peace, or adapt quickly to shifting dynamics—skills that can make it harder to recognize and assert personal limits in adulthood. Establishing healthy boundaries begins with identifying your own needs, values, and emotional capacity, separate from the patterns you may have inherited. It means giving yourself permission to say no without guilt, to communicate clearly and calmly, and to recognize that protecting your well-being is not selfish—it’s essential. Healthy boundaries aren’t walls; they’re guidelines that help create relationships built on mutual respect, consistency, and trust. As you practice, expect discomfort at first—it’s a sign you’re doing something new. Over time, these boundaries become the foundation for more secure, balanced, and fulfilling connections. 

• Emotional maturity

Emotional maturity is the ability to understand, manage, and express your emotions in a way that is grounded, honest, and respectful—both to yourself and others. For adult children of divorce, this can mean learning to respond thoughtfully instead of reacting from old patterns shaped by conflict, inconsistency, or insecurity. Growth starts with awareness: pause and name what you’re feeling before acting on it. Practice taking responsibility for your emotions rather than blaming others, and communicate your needs clearly without escalating or shutting down. Simple habits—like journaling, reflecting after difficult interactions, and asking “what part of this is mine to own?”—can steadily build emotional resilience. Over time, emotional maturity allows you to create relationships that feel safe, steady, and aligned with who you are now—not just who you had to be growing up.

Resources for Adult Children of Divorce

• Restored Podcast: https://restoredministry.com/podcast

The Only Podcast for Children of Divorce & Broken Families. Learn from experts and people like you how to:

• Navigate the Challenges

• Heal the Trauma

• Build Healthy Relationships

• It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide for Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce https://restoredministry.com/itsnotyourfault

• Find a Coach Submission Form: https://restoredministry.com/coaching

• Broken to Whole: Tactics to Heal from Your Parents’ Divorce or Broken Marriage (COURSE): https://restoredministry.com/brokentowhole

• 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and  Divorce-Proof Marriage – FREE guide: https://restoredministry.com/marriagetalk
  

• 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family – FREE guide: https://restoredministry.com/holidays
  

Frequently Asked Questions About Children of Divorce

Are children of divorce more likely to divorce?

Research suggests that children of divorce do have a higher likelihood of divorcing compared to those from intact families. This is often linked to learned relationship patterns, beliefs about commitment, and exposure to conflict. However, this is does not mean it is your fate—many people actively build strong, lasting marriages despite their background.

Can adult children of divorce have healthy marriages?

Absolutely. Adult children of divorce can have deeply healthy, stable, and fulfilling marriages. In fact, many become highly intentional partners because they’re aware of what can go wrong. With self-awareness, communication skills, and support, they often create strong, resilient relationships.

How do you heal from your parents’ divorce?

Healing is a process, not a one-time event. It often includes:

• Acknowledging and processing emotions (grief, anger, confusion)

• Identifying and challenging unhealthy beliefs about love or commitment

• Learning new relationship skills (communication, conflict resolution)

• Setting boundaries with family when needed

• Seeking support through therapy, community, or trusted relationships

Over time, healing allows you to separate your story from your parents’ story.

What are the long-term effects of parents’ divorce?

Long-term effects can vary widely, but may include:

• Shifts in how a person views commitment or trust

• Increased independence or self-reliance

• Heightened sensitivity to conflict

• Fear of abandonment or loss

• Greater emotional awareness (in some cases)

Not all effects are negative—some individuals develop resilience, adaptability, and strong emotional intelligence.

How does divorce affect children later in life?

As adults, children of divorce may:

• Approach relationships cautiously or fear vulnerability

• Struggle with trust or stability in partnerships

• Feel pressure to “get relationships right”

• Be more aware of relationship dynamics—sometimes to their advantage

• Experience feelings of depression and anxiety, often without understanding why

• Wrestle with suppressed anger which can be misdirected

• Avoid committing to a person, place, or even a job

• Lack healthy self-care habits

• Have faulty and even detrimental coping mechanisms

• Experience loneliness 

• Have misplaced feelings of guilt

These effects depend heavily on the level of conflict, support, and stability they experienced growing up.

Why do children of divorce struggle in relationships?

Struggles often stem from early experiences, such as:

• Witnessing conflict or breakdowns in communication

• Internalizing beliefs like “relationships don’t last”

• Lacking models of healthy conflict resolution

• Fear of repeating their parents’ mistakes

These patterns are learned—but they can also be unlearned with awareness and effort.

What problems do adult children of divorce face?

Some common challenges include:

• Fear of commitment or, conversely, rushing into commitment

• Difficulty trusting partners

• Conflict avoidance or heightened reactivity

• People-pleasing or overcompensating in relationships

• Anxiety around abandonment or rejection

The key is that these are patterns—not permanent traits. With intention and growth, they can be reshaped.

Conclusion

We hope you have found this guide helpful. Being an adult child of divorce can be challenging and at times overwhelming, but you don’t have to go through it alone. Make sure to check out restoredministry.com and follow us on social media so you can get the help and support you need to heal and feel whole again. 

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

When Not to Listen to Your Parents About Love | 3 Callers from Broken Families #173

In this episode, I mentor three people LIVE through the problems they’re facing in their broken families:

• One caller asks how to deal with a dad who avoids the reality of his divorce, and whether it’s his place to confront him or let that battle go.

• Another asks a question people are afraid to say out loud: Can I actually heal? And if so, how does healing really happen?

• And finally, a young woman opens up about starting her first relationship while watching her divorced parents repeat unhealthy patterns, and asks, “Who do I go to for relationship advice when my parents haven’t modeled a healthy relationship themselves?”

If you’ve ever felt torn, stuck, or unsure how to navigate the pain and dysfunction of your broken family, this episode is for you. 

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

speaker-0 (00:00)

Instead of an interview in this episode, I'll mentor three people live right here on the podcast who are facing problems that so many of us from broken families face. One caller asks how to deal with a dad who avoids the reality of his divorce and whether it's his place to confront him or maybe just let that battle go. Another asks a great question that so many of us are afraid to say out loud. Can I actually heal? And if so, how does healing really happen?

And finally, a young woman opens up about starting her first relationship while watching her divorced parents repeat the unhealthy patterns in their relationships. And she asks the question, like, who do I go to for relationship advice when my parents haven't been able to model a healthy relationship for me? And so if you've ever felt torn, stuck, or unsure how to navigate the pain and dysfunction of your broken family, this episode is for you. And with that, here's our first call.

Hey, welcome back. What, what can I help with?

speaker-1 (00:57)

Joey, it's good to see you again. I wanted to talk about my relationship with my dad and just kind of how to navigate living in reality with him. The fact that, yeah, my parents have been separated for five years. Legally, the divorce has been going on for five as well with no resolution quite yet. ⁓ And the previous time we talked, I mentioned my mom talks about it a lot, so I'm very aware on her end. But with my dad, it's the complete opposite. I don't ever hear.

anything about how the divorce is going for him. We don't use the word divorce. It's basically he's living his own life and my mom doesn't exist in it. And I think I just have a hard time navigating between these two extremes. Right one looping me in often and one pretending it's affecting the relationship. So yeah, with my dad, the things for contracts, like the things we talk about is like exercise, culture, reading, travel, work.

speaker-0 (01:50)

kind of surface level.

speaker-1 (01:51)

Yeah, very surface level. if that's the conversations we stick to, it's great. Like him and I get along well, we can engage in conversation. As soon as we go even one step deeper, it's just values are exploding and it doesn't go well, which is part of the reason I don't bring up this divorce in situation with mom and dad or anything familial. However, I'm finding it difficult in how that aligns with my values and how much I

emphasize the importance of having a healthy relationship with my parents, mom and dad. And so I don't want to be avoidant of the situation in the way my dad is being. So I just was curious what your take is on whether I would be in the right place to bring it up if I keep playing along with what my dad's doing. Yeah, I just don't have a lot of leeway or even foresight for that.

speaker-0 (02:40)

Yeah, no, it's a great question. And like I'd said before, it's man, it's so rough what you're going through. And I've been there and everyone listening, you know, has been through some sort of variation with us too. So we get you, you're not alone. I think it's a great question with, you know, a dad who, you know, maybe, yeah, just as ignoring kind of the reality of the problem of like your family falling apart and whatever role he played in it. Yeah, whatever behaviors that, you know, he's putting forth. And so I guess one of the questions is like, if things were to continue the way they are.

Like, why would that bother you? Is it just because he's being oblivious or is there something else to it?

speaker-1 (03:15)

I don't think he's being oblivious. think he, for as long as I've known him in my adult life, he avoids conflict. But I struggle with it because I hear so much from my mom's side of like what's said during the hearings or whatever legal terms actually happen in the court and all that. And yes, I hear like how he's treating my mom and kind of how he sounds like he really doesn't value time my mom spent.

to raise me and my brother. And so, yeah, just having that understanding, it really irritates me to think that he's living a certain lifestyle while not valuing my mom's time and sacrificing career in short and a livelihood for family. And then reach his out. Well, actually, he doesn't really reach out to me. I reach out to him. We have dinner and he's amiable and friendly and encouraging of my career and encouraging of my steps forward in life and whatnot. But inside I'm like, how can you?

Talk to me that way when you're mistreating my mom.

speaker-0 (04:13)

Got it. That makes sense. So you feel this need to stand up for your mom.

speaker-1 (04:17)

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

speaker-0 (04:18)

Yeah. Which makes sense. Like you're defensive or especially cause you're hearing, know, what she's saying. and I get that. So I guess the question is like, is that your role? And if it is like, how do you go about doing it? ⁓ which, which is, I think a great question. I think one of the questions is important for you to think about. It's okay if you don't have an answer here is like, know, if you said something and if it went as perfectly well as you could imagine it would go, what would that look like? What would be the outcome? Like, what would be the result of that?

Have you thought about that at all?

speaker-1 (04:46)

Yeah, I mean, I daydream. The result of it is my dad taking ownership over his action to initiate the divorce and finalizing it. it's, from what I understand, the delays come from his end. it's both affecting, it's affecting them emotionally, but I'm also seeing it how it's affecting them physically, you know, as they age a little more. So for me, would just be maybe someone finally telling him what it is. I mean, the truth the situation and like, hey, you're not addressing need to finish this. Also, it's hurting everyone in the family.

maybe would lead to kicking him in the behind a little bit.

speaker-0 (05:18)

Everyone needs that from time to time. Okay. No, I totally am tracking with you. And I've been in these situations with my dad too, where we were kind of estranged from each other. Like we weren't talking and you know, where he was doing things I didn't agree with. And so I can share kind of what I did in that situation that we can maybe see if it's applicable here. So I remember at one point, I won't get into the specifics, but my dad was like acting out in a really horrible way during my parents divorce. And remember that even after divorce, and I remember.

feeling like if I were to continue my relationship with him like normal, you know, going out to eat like you had mentioned and seeing him here or there and of having normal conversations about like sports and life and whatever, I felt like I was kind of tacitly approving his behavior, kind of like pretending like it wasn't happening. And at one point, because it got so extreme, like it was pretty extreme, I felt that couldn't go on. And so what I decided to do was to write him a letter. in that letter, I said, you know, dad, I love you. I want a good relationship with you.

Here's what I've been observing that is a major problem for me. And because of that, like I can't keep going as long as you're acting this way. But as soon as I see that you've, you're changing, that you've changed, I'd be more than happy to restart or resume the relationship. I sent him that letter. didn't talk for a year and a half, but eventually his behavior did change. And once it changed, I was happy to start the relationship again, because I want a relationship with my dad.

And I think we all do at some level, even if our parents have hurt like we want a good relationship with them. And so that was my way of doing it. An ultimatum like that is Jocko Willink, the leadership expert Navy SEAL guy. He talks about it a lot and he says that an ultimatum is the last resort. It's something where a situation has gotten so you really have no other option but to do that so maybe it's not quite at that point in your situation, but that's what I had to do in that situation.

So I guess like in your situation, I totally get that the outcome is you want your dad to take ownership. You want the whole drama of this whole divorce legal proceeding, at least the legal proceeding side of it to be over with. And then there's also the side where you like want to kind of correct him for saying things about your mom that you feel aren't true based on what you've observed and everything, which I totally So I guess the one question I would ask is like, how do think he would react to you maybe having a conversation with him one or two, delivering that message in a more passive way, like a letter or an email?

Like what's his reaction?

speaker-1 (07:35)

The letter, I probably wouldn't get a response from him and it would just, I wouldn't know whether he wrote it or not. That's what I imagine. If I were to tell him in person, have had an ultimatum conversation with him before, not relating to my mom, just relating to him and I's relationship. think previously I mentioned if I went one step below or deeper than, know, everyday activities, no, he kept crossing that threshold. So essentially told him like, hey, if conversation leads past this.

type of conversation, I will end the call or like, I'm just going to create more distance. So I have told him this. So based on that data and how that went, my dad would play victim. He would pout about it then not talk to me for a long time.

speaker-0 (08:15)

Okay. So, so like, that's a likely outcome. And I think it's important to say that we hope our parents would act the way that we need them to, the way that maybe it would be virtuous and really wise, I think, to think back to like you just said, you know, what, what's the track record and what's the, and based on that, what's the likelihood. And I even like putting into percentage for myself of like, it's probably like a 5 % chance this goes well, or there's like, or in some, you know, better situations, like, yeah, there's like a 70 % chance that this is going to end.

pretty well. so you can kind of decide how you're going to act based on that. I think that's a reasonable thing to do. so him playing the victim, so again, like I know I said this in our last conversation, not your job to defend your mom in this sense. It's not your job to, know, kind of put your dad in his place. It's not your job to kind of convince him of how damaging the divorce is. Like I get why that's a desire. And I know you know this, I just want to remind you and everyone else listening that it's like, Hey,

This isn't your job. In fact, sometimes I think what can happen with us kids is like, we might even overestimate how much of an impact something we do will have. We think that, man, if I just said this thing or did this thing, it would fix the situation. When in reality, if you could, if you do that perfectly, like flawlessly, might not change much, unfortunately, because people have hard hearts. People don't want to change. People want to play the victim. even if you have the perfect solution, they might not do anything with it.

And so does that mean we should never try? No, I think we should, but I think it's more important to try to be and tactful and try to influence people as opposed to, you know, maybe trying, and then I'm not saying you're saying this, but sometimes our intuition is like that we want to like force people or get them to do what we want them to And so, yeah. So I think like, how do you go forward? So you mentioned a few different goals and all of this. And I would say one, showing him like how damaging it's been for you and you have siblings too, Okay. Yeah. So.

speaker-1 (09:59)

One brother, yeah.

speaker-0 (10:01)

showing him about that, like he can't really argue with your story. So if you haven't already, which it sounds like you might've, ⁓ you could convey like, Hey, here's why this has been so hard for me. And the thing that I would want at this is just for this to be over. That's one angle. And that's, and that's maybe like one battle and like, you don't fight the other battles right now. You just fight one battle at a Maybe that's the top priority battle. You go after that one and that's it.

Where it's more like, you know, do this for mom. He's not going to be motivated by that, unfortunately. Do this for yourself. Who knows. do it for me because this is hard. Maybe. I don't know. It seems like that might be more convincing. I'm a dad and if, you know, my kids told me something, I feel like, you know, I would at least take it to heart and consider it. So that's just one thought. And then, yeah. And then some of the other things where, yeah, just kind of, you know, it sounds like he's.

behaving a certain way that you don't agree with. think that's like, I'd mentioned them, the letter to my dad. think once you voice that and then you maybe cut them off, if it's so extreme or you limit and, you know, do what you've already done, which is saying like, if this happens, this consequence is going to go in place. And they're just doing that until you're nauseous, which is so annoying. I hate it. That's just of boundaries. And it comes to a point where if it continues on long enough, then it's like, okay.

Is it really wise for me to be investing in this relationship when it's maybe draining the life out of you, even if you want a good one? And then I think that's where, you like we were saying, an ultimatum might be appropriate. are a few things, but I would say I'd probably avoid, I know as hard as it is, cause I get that desire in you to like fight for your mom and defend her. I would probably avoid going down that would kind of let her do that. Let the attorneys do that. Let the court system do that.

They'll figure that out. It's not really your role. I remember talking with Father John Burns, who did his PhD on forgiveness. I'm like, what do you do with all the anger and hurt you feel? is there like scientific evidence that forgiveness is actually good for you? We talked about that in one of the episodes. We'll link to that in the show notes for everyone who's listening. Yeah. And one of the things that he says though is like, when it comes to situations of like injustice, typically it's best for a third party to bring about the justice.

Where it's like, if you were harmed, a third party, the police, the justice system will bring about the justice. It's not your role. It's not your job to do that. Now it doesn't mean you can't defend yourself. doesn't mean there might not be a situation where you like advocate for yourself. Different, not talking about that, but typically that third party I think is better. So that's kind of why I'm getting at what I'm getting at with like maybe let your mom fight that battle at her attorney's and all that kind of play out. Is that making sense so far?

speaker-1 (12:30)

Yes, it is. That's very helpful context. And I think just with self-reflection, know justice gets fired up in me pretty quickly.

speaker-0 (12:36)

Yeah, and that's a good thing. And again, it's more about like knowing which battles are yours to fight. then also when you know which battles are you're to fight, making sure you're winning the battle, but losing the war. Right? Where we're like putting everything in this one scenario, this one situation, just being right or convincing this person this or that, but then maybe like throwing everything else out the window, right? We're maybe betting too much. And I'm not saying you're doing that in this situation, but I think it's a helpful thing to kind of.

temper ourselves to think like, okay, I'm, you know, I want to win the war. I want to be prudent about which battles are mind defied. And I think this is probably not one of them. I, I know it's maybe a little bit of tough love, I just, I hear about you and I want to make sure that you're, you know, not spending yourself on something that maybe isn't yours to do.

speaker-1 (13:19)

Mm-hmm. No, that's helpful. And I mean, maybe at heart it's tough love, but it doesn't feel like that. I think it's affirming of what I've been doing, which is not doing what my natural inclination is, which is, you know, defend my mom for the sake of having a relationship with my dad that's more even keeled than previously.

speaker-0 (13:36)

Yeah, no, I get And, and, know, if you think it's appropriate, I know we talked about this idea of like conveying like your hurt and how it would be helpful to just finish this whole legal thing for you and for your brother, perhaps. one other thought is maybe offering like resources to your dad and perhaps you've done something like this, but the idea being that, um, if he's more responsive to emotion, to like stories, the book Primal Loss, which I think we've maybe talked about before, it just, features a 70 stories of.

adult children of divorce, really honestly and kind of it's a grueling book to get through. They just talk honestly about like, here's how my parents' divorce impacted me. Here's all the pain that I felt. Here's all the problems. Here are the problems that I faced. Here are the maybe good things that I didn't pursue or I gave up on in my life, whether it's a marriage or relationship or something because of a lot of the hurt that I experienced at home. so that's Primal Loss is a great book for that. And Leila Miller, we, who put the book together, she was the editor.

We interviewed her on it and we'll throw that link in the show notes if you guys want to check that out before perhaps diving into the book. That's one. The other one is if in the future where it's not ready yet, we finished the research on it, there's a book that we're putting together that's going to feature over a hundred peer reviewed studies. We're just going to summarize like over a hundred peer reviewed studies in like a one page format. So one page will say, this is the study on divorce and children of divorce. You know, here's the link. If you want to go look at it yourself, here are like the five to seven findings.

and things like that. You know, they studied this many people and this is what they found and all that. And that's more of a data-driven way. If he's more of like a numbers guy type that like that, then someone could see that and be like, man, there was a recent study that they did where they looked at children for 30 years. they found all these different things, children of divorce for 30 years, and they found all these different things. So sometimes people are more convinced by data than stories. So kind of knowing where he's at with that might be helpful to give him like this or that. So that book, unfortunately, is not out yet.

But there are some studies like the one I mentioned, which we'll link in the show notes as well, that could be helpful to kind of present as like, it's not just me, here's evidence, or it's not just me, here are other stories that are kind of heart wrenching that maybe would get him to think twice. But that might not just to be honest. And at the end of the day, you can only be responsible for yourself. And the only other book I'd mentioned, which I don't know if it would be appropriate or right for you to.

or smart to give it to him, but is Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink. Have you read that book, Extreme Ownership? It's a great book. It's for anyone interested, it's written by two Navy SEALs, Jocko Willink and Leif Babin, who fought in the Middle East and their task unit, which is just like a, you know, a team of Navy SEALs was the most decorated task unit of the entire Iraqi operation over there.

And so, ⁓ they just share like leadership principles and the whole leadership principle. And it's not just for like people in business or in leadership positions, it's for all of us. The main thing they say that the characteristic, the virtue that is like most core to being a good leader is taking ownership, extreme ownership of yourself and everything in your environment. And so perhaps, especially if he's a business guy, that might encourage him to take more ownership in his own life. So that could be even a gift and you might not even like relate it to the situation. You might say, you know, here's a book that.

you know, I heard about or I read and I thought this might be helpful when it's a gift for your birthday, for Christmas, whatever.

speaker-1 (16:59)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that might actually go over well.

speaker-0 (17:01)

Cool, yeah. And you're being more influential, you're being subtle, you're kind of trying to use those kind of diplomatic tactful tactics to get by maybe the heart exterior, which may or may not work. And it's a long game. That's the final thing I'll say is that with all of our parents, I think it's important that we remember that there's nothing we're going to do or say in one instant that's going to change them, change their hearts. It's over time. And by far, for those of us who are religious too, prayer and God's grace is the biggest thing that we can do.

it, you know, he can change them when we can. And we just don't have control over that or the timing of it. So that would be my last encouragement is just to be patient and don't be afraid to put those boundaries up and even take a step back if you need it.

speaker-1 (17:42)

Thank you so much for your time and advice. This is very helpful.

speaker-0 (17:45)

Yeah, no, I'm really glad and please keep me posted on how this plays out, okay?

If you're a young adult who comes from a divorced or broken family, I have a personal invitation for you. The Archdiocese of Philadelphia asked us to host a weekend healing retreat for young adults. That's anyone ages 18 to 39 who comes from a broken family, meaning your parents are divorced or separated.

Or maybe mom and dad stayed together, but they acted divorced. And so if that describes you and perhaps you experienced things like anxiety, habits, maybe that fear of repeating your parents' story, this retreat is for you. You're gonna walk away with really practical ways to heal, healthier ways to deal with your pain, and a real plan to build the kind of love and marriage that you did not see growing up. Everything that we'll be doing on the retreat is based on research, the church's wisdom, and expert...

built exercises. And so if that interests you, the retreat is May 1st through 3rd, that's Friday evening to Sunday morning. Instead of view details or register, just go to restoredministry.com slash affiliate or click the link in the show notes. We are almost out of seats. I think that's less than 10 seats at this recording. And so by the time you hear it, it might be even less. So the retreat center closes registration on Tuesday, April 28th. And so if you want to get in, just make sure to

grab your spot before they run out and before we hit that date. So hey, welcome to the show again. How can I help? How did you Because sometimes I feel like it is not possible to I'd to know from your experience, how did feel? It's a great question. And the first thing I would say is healing to me.

speaker-1 (19:05)

you here.

Maybe I will never

Do you?

speaker-0 (19:21)

is the process of becoming healthy and whole, to becoming functional. So I like to think of it in physical terms. I think of if I were to break my arm, right, I would go to the doctor, you I'd go to the hospital. They would maybe do an x-ray. They'd maybe give you some medicine for the pain. They would probably put a cast on my arm. And they do any number of actions that would help my arm to heal. And then eventually in time, my bone would heal, my, you know, arm would get healthier.

I would get the casts off, I would maybe do some therapy, I would regain strength, regain movement, regain function, and my arm would be healthy and whole again, at least to its fullest capacity. That's how I like to think of healing. The same needs to happen on an emotional level as well because these experiences we go through in our families that are wounding to us, they leave emotional wounds. They leave us feeling abandoned, they leave us feeling neglected, rejected, like all the things. And so when it comes to emotional healing, there's

there's any number of things you can do. And that's, think, the first principle is there's no silver bullet. There's no like, do this one thing and you will be healed. It's more like, do these series of things and you will become healthier and more whole. And so I love the quote, there's no silver bullet, there's only a hundred golden BBs, meaning there's a lot of little things you need to do. So I think starting out, one of the...

quotes that comes to mind is from Adam Young who hosts the awesome podcast, The Place We Find Ourselves. He says that when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70 % of the battle. So what is he saying? So essentially he means being able to reflect on your story, which he encourages people to do, to engage your story, he says, to think through what has happened in your life, all the people that have impacted you, all the different settings, the plot.

as if it were a story, as if it were a novel or a movie, we need to kind of think back in a constructive way on what happened. And when we do that, it's actually the start of healing because we put into words, oh, dad abandoned me here. He shouldn't have done that. It should have been different. He should have been present and loving and protective. He abandoned me. It should have been different. So we're putting language to it, or we can say, oh, my parents got divorced.

That was traumatic, that was hard, that overwhelmed me. And because of that, I suffered in this way and that way. And so we need to just start by being aware of it, by putting language to it, by putting into words, which sounds so simplistic, but that is the start of healing. from there, or one of the things I wanted to share, that act alone is healing. And that was helpful for me, by the way, you asked like, how have I found healing? That was helpful for me, just starting with like putting things into words.

In therapy, I did that with therapists over the years. I did that with friends. I did that with mentors who weren't technically therapists, in my case, spiritual directors. so what Adam Young says though, he quotes a neurobiologist who says that one measure of brain health is something called neural connectivity. So if you think of your brain as a web of neurons, the more connections between the webs, the healthier your brain is, the healthier you are.

Reflecting on your story, like I was saying, is actually healing on a neurobiological level because it neural connectivity, making your brain healthier, making you healthier. So that's one place to start. The second place that I would recommend that's was helpful for me is just sharing your story with someone else who could receive it with empathy. So you find someone who you trust, you find someone who you can share things with, who's not gonna judge you, who's not gonna dismiss you, who's not going to.

not really show any sort of empathy, but he's actually gonna listen. And that alone, again, according to this neurobiologist, is helpful and healing and makes your brain healthier because it increases neural connectivity. So that's one place to start. I've always found writing incredibly healing. There's a professor at University of Texas at Austin who wrote great books. His name's Professor James Pennbaker. He wrote books on how writing can be healing.

And so that was really helpful for me. I didn't follow his method originally because I didn't know about him, but we've done exercises with him and those are really helpful. They're like 20 minute exercises. You do four days in a row. So that's another healing tactic as well. But I think overall, the thing that's been most helpful and healing for me, in addition to some of these other things I mentioned, is just my mentor relationships. So my relationship with these mentors, whether they were just, usually it was a man, sometimes it was like a teacher or a coach or...

someone in my life who had some other role, but they were able to step into this role of being a mentor for me. in college, especially, had just amazing men come around me and guide me and give me advice and love me and just affirm me as a man. Because especially as a man, I needed to be affirmed in my masculinity. I needed to be told like, you're a man, you're good enough, you have what it takes, you're strong, all those things. Women need something similar. They need a good father figure in their life to love them and tell them they're beautiful and enough and all of that. And then, you know,

Women obviously need women in their life too to kind of show them how to be a full woman, a beautiful woman, a strong woman, all those good things. So anyway, I would say the mentors though have been like the most thing. And part of the reason for that is because when we're wounded, when we go through trauma in life, at the root of that is a deprivation or a distortion of love, a deprivation or distortion of love. And so naturally the antidote to our wounds is experiencing love, authentic love.

especially in these mentor relationships, but it can also be with your friends and other people like that. So those are a few things that have been really helpful in healing. And then, you know, for people who are religious, I would say, I know not everyone's maybe open to this, but it's been helpful for me, is just our relationship with God. Grace is God's life within you, within your soul, and grace helps you to do good and avoid evil. It helps you to heal on so many levels because it kind of helps you to take the things that are out of order within you and put them into right order.

And there's different ways to get grace. That's maybe another topic for another time, but just having that relationship with God can, you know, He gives you His life, He gives you His grace. And that for me has been incredibly helpful in healing, especially when I, you know, would kind of bring to Him all my pain and my brokenness. He was there for me as well. So those are a few things I would say, but it's certainly a big question, something that's worth, you exploring more. And I would say therapy or mentorship though is probably the biggest thing that I would recommend. And yeah, the, ⁓

the partnership that we have with the Catholic Psych, catholicsych.com slash apply. ⁓ you can get like 10 % off if you use the discount code restored 24 restored 24. And that's a great way to find someone who we trust, who's really well trained to walk with you. So is that helpful? So helpful. Awesome. Awesome. Well, it's good to talk with you and, I, yeah, you'll have to let me know how things are going, but it's a great question. Thank you. Okay. Real talk. If you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally, but nothing is working, you're not.

speaker-1 (25:57)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

speaker-0 (26:11)

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And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never going to get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally. Hey, it's really good to be talking with you. How could I help today? Thanks.

speaker-1 (26:46)

So I'm in my late twenties and my parents got divorced in my late teens. They had been married all my life before then. They got remarried to other people about two years after they divorced. kind of throughout their marriages, I noticed kind of a lot of the dysfunctional patterns that they had in their first marriage with each other kind of continuing. A few months ago also, I just started my first relationship. So wondering.

I guess considering that I have concerns about, you know, how my parents are with their own relationships, how should I go about getting advice from them regarding my current relationship?

speaker-0 (27:24)

This is a tricky one. I think there's two ways to answer it. On one end, people have the perspective, like never take advice from someone who hasn't been where you want to go. So don't go to a poor person asking them how to be wealthy. Don't go to someone who's completely out of shape and ask them how to be fit. You want to go to people who've done what you want to do in order to like learn how they did it. So, you know, if you see someone

Anyone, even, you know, I know we're talking about your parents here who has like really unhealthy relationships and you want your romantic relationship now to be healthy. They might not be the best people to learn from. And I don't say that with harshness against them. In fact, they might even say that to you if you were to have like a really honest conversation with them. But, but that's one perspective. So the question becomes then who do you go to? And that's when I think it's really, really key. What I've found really helpful and a lot of people that I've talked with through Resort have found this helpful too.

Find a family that you admire, that you would want to emulate. You want your marriage to be like their marriage, spend time with them. Which sounds simple, but I think there's sometimes some struggles to get to that point. But that's what I would say. And for me, there were two couples, I just loved being with their family, I loved being with them. They really were an inspiration for me, because I really doubted that love could last. Especially after my parents' marriage ended, I was like this, even if marriage and love is good for a time.

I'm like, eventually it's going to fall apart. Like I do not want anything to do with that then. But in time, you know, when I saw these really beautiful couples who they didn't have perfect relationships, but they had really healthy relationships and they really happy relationships, happy marriages. I was like, man, I want that. And just by observing their, their marriage, the way they interacted, the way they disagree, the way that they, you know, would ask questions and just, you know, look at each other and like all the little things. It even kind of created a little bit of an example to follow.

It was almost like a little bit of an apprenticeship in love, which I think is really beautiful. So I think that's like really great. can be hard to find those families because there's not a ton of like really thriving, great, healthy families, depending on what circles you run in. But I found across the board, it's hard to find them. And so do you have anyone in mind who might be able to be kind of that mentor family for you?

speaker-1 (29:39)

I mean a few people. Up until now, while I might ask my parents some things, I do have some cousins that I might go to for advice about certain things. And then also because I'm living in a different city, same as my boyfriend who lives here, we do have like different maybe members at church who we can go to for advice or like things like that.

speaker-0 (30:00)

Great. I love that. And I love that you mentioned church. I think that's a great way to find these sort of mentors. I know for me too, I found them through different relationships. Like I remember some of my professors at school, I got along with them while I looked up to them. They seemed to have really good families. So would try to ask them advice. So I think, yeah, that's great. And one of the things I would advise there, and I'm glad you have people in your corner, but if there's a family who you maybe admire at church or somewhere else, start by getting to know them maybe at church.

you know, say hi to them, you know, ask obviously how they're doing, things like that. And then if you can, you know, there's a couple of ways to approach it. One is to like, maybe ask for you to ask like the mom, the woman to say, you know, Hey, I really admire you and your family. I'd love to get some advice for you. Would you be open to like, you know, sitting down and having coffee sometime? That's it. So you build that relationship with like the, the, the mom. And then maybe over time, you know, you kind of build a relationship with the family where you can go over.

And you can maybe help out with a project around the house. You can maybe babysit the kids or do something like that. Go over for dinner, maybe even bring dinner, something like that, where you kind of just spending time in their presence. And like, honestly, for me, that was just incredibly helpful and healing. I don't think I'd be married today for over seven years now, if it wasn't for those families that I mentioned. I really believe that. And so I think this is like, it can be so, so helpful, at least it was for me. And so that's it. it's, and you know, I think.

Finding out how to be helpful. Families have busy lives. They don't have a lot of time and space for like extra things, but people don't mind giving advice. People like giving advice. And so sitting down with someone like that, I think it'd be really good. And then maybe even, you know, trying to have a meal or something like that with them. and then in time, you know, once you get that level of comfort, perhaps I don't, you you don't have to go down this route. You can maybe even ask the married couple to like mentor you.

to kind of help you guys as a couple. Maybe you meet with them once a month or something like that. And you just bring to them like the reality of your relationships. Like, hey, you know, here's our relationship. Here's where we're strong. Here's where we're weak. You know, this is where we want to go and whatever, you know, this is maybe some of the things that are keeping us from getting, you know, getting married or whatever. And my wife and I did that and it was really helpful. We had a mentor who, you know, knew everything about our relationship and he was able to guide us and even help us kind of.

Um, figure out if we were the right fit to get married. And so I think, I think that's like really, really helpful. Now I know it's like a lot of steps to get to that point. So, you know, I would recommend if there's someone at church who you admire, you look up to, just try to get to know them more, grab coffee and see where it goes. What do you think about that?

speaker-1 (32:27)

I think that sounds helpful because I think up until now the issue that I've been running into is that I have people but I haven't had that level of closeness where I felt comfortable say going to them rather than going to my parents who I felt like were people who knew me quite well.

speaker-0 (32:44)

And there's nothing wrong with that. And that was the second part of the answer, which I want to get to in a second. But first, I totally get that. And I think it is a little bit of a leap because not everyone will be open to it. I don't think you're going to, especially if you're approaching someone at church, they're probably going to be cordial and likely going to be, you know, open to having a coffee and, having a chat. It takes a little bit of vulnerability. And I know for me growing up, vulnerability wasn't something that was like, you know, I could tell you, it seems like you're a vulnerable person, like you're able to open up to people and that's great.

For me, it wasn't like that. I felt like in my family, we kept things kind of safe and on the surface. And so having a conversations where you're kind of like opening your heart up was not a normal thing. Eventually it became more normal because my siblings and I would do it and it, you know, we had friends who kind of influenced that and it was really good, but it wasn't a normal thing. So I actually had to learn how to do that. I had to learn how to, you know, approach people and be like, Hey, I'd love to get your advice. And again, people love giving advice. So when you say that, use that word advice. There's actually research on this from.

Robert Cialdini, who's studied like influence. Um, he says, if you ask people for advice, like you actually will then have more influence over them, which is a really interesting thing. so anyway, people typically are really open to, giving advice. So I think that's a great starting point of like, you know, figuring out a time you can sit down and have coffee to get some advice. And then, you know, kind of like we're doing this conversation, you present, Hey, here's the situation. Here's the problem I'm facing. Um, I'm feeling a little lost and I'd love to get some of your guidance here and then, you know, let them go.

Let them see what they have to say and see if it's helpful. And if it is, then maybe you meet again. And if it's not, then that's okay. At least you had the practice of like opening up a little bit to someone and maybe you find another person who's a better fit for you. So yeah, so that's kind of one end of it is like learning how to be more vulnerable. And I think again, kind of like we were saying before, when it comes to that conversation ⁓ with your mom, you kind of got to risk it. You kind of have to put your neck out there.

And, you know, maybe be rejected. I don't think you'd be rejected in this situation, but maybe be rejected or maybe and not go perfectly like you want it to, but just realize like, Hey, that's just, this is just practice. Like I'm just learning how to do this thing. I'm not going to be perfect at it at first. And that's okay. ⁓ so, so that's kind of what I would say on that front, but I wanted to get to the second part of the answer, which is like approaching your parents for, ⁓ advice too, which I'm not against. I just wanted to give this first part. Is that helpful in any other questions on the first part? No.

speaker-1 (35:04)

think that makes sense with that first part.

speaker-0 (35:07)

Is there anyone you could think of in particular, even beyond just maybe generally like at church who you could maybe approach? And that's okay if not, I'm just curious.

speaker-1 (35:15)

I mean, I think between my family members and church, that's kind of the main ones that come to mind. Beyond that, it might take more looking into or maybe even asking my boyfriend, because I know he has connections and people he knows as well.

speaker-0 (35:28)

Great. I love that. That's really wise. And yeah, like I was saying before too, it might take some time of like getting to know people and that's okay. You know, a lot of times when it comes to like church or school or things, it just means spending more time around them. So it's like, you know, after church, having more conversations, putting yourself out there a little bit, going to other events, things like that. Then you get to know people a little bit more. And through that, maybe you'll find someone who can be a bit of a mentor. So that's that. Okay. The second part of the answer is, you know, the first part is kind of like,

don't necessarily go to your parents for advice because, know, unless you, I'm not saying you're going to end up getting divorced if you go to advice from divorced people, but it's kind of the whole idea of like, you want to go to people who've had success in the area that you're seeking for success. Sorry if that sounded harsh, genuine, that's not what I intended. The second part I'm saying is like, I think you can go to your mom or dad for advice and relationships. I think you need to be, you know, again, if they had kind of like a train wreck of a marriage and there weren't a lot of great examples.

You might learn more from their mistakes than you would from the things that you should be doing, if that makes sense, or the things that they did. And so I think there's, you know, like one of the lessons I've heard from a lot of parents is like, they say like, yeah, I really didn't discern well whether I should have married this person. You know, there were like all these red flags. I kind of kept them to myself. I didn't tell anyone about them. Or if anyone brought them up, I kind of brushed them off. didn't really give them the attention that they deserve. We ended up getting married and now we're divorced.

And so I think there's like some powerful lessons that can come from quote unquote failure or, you know, a bad relationship and unhealthy relationship. And so I think there is something to be said to, you know, going to mom or dad and seeking that advice. ⁓ When it comes, there's another component of it too, that I would say is healthy or is really helpful is that they know you so well. And so they can speak into a little bit at least about maybe how they think, you know, you guys are together.

I remember in some of my relationships in the past, I could tell my mom like didn't quite approve of the girl I was with. Not because she was like, wasn't a good girl, but because I just didn't think that we went well together. And then I remember once I started dating my wife, it was like a totally different tone with my mom. Like I noticed like she was, you know, just talked about her differently. She acted around her differently and it seemed to be like, okay, there's something here. She, she said it with words too, but there was something kind of like even nonverbal that I understood like, okay, she, she thinks this is the right fit.

And so, so I think there's a lot to be said on those two fronts, maybe learning from their mistakes and then also kind of pulling upon the wisdom that they have because they've known you your whole life. He's known you as long as you've had been you and no one else really knows you as long as you've been you. Is that ringing true? Is that helpful?

speaker-1 (38:07)

So I mean, I think kind of what I've been doing a bit already is whenever I do ask for advice or they do give me advice, I feel like I tend to just kind of, I don't know, take it with a grain of salt like filter. Like, what do I think is good from this apart from negative? And I think also they are aware of kind of their own mistakes in a sense. Like my mom will talk about things that she felt like could have gone better with my dad or, you know, like you said, red flags or.

My dad will talk about with his second marriage, things that, you know, he feels like if he hadn't known, maybe then he wouldn't have gone into that marriage.

speaker-0 (38:45)

That's super valuable. I love that. And I think you're wise to take anyone's, including mine, anyone's advice with a grain of salt and kind of filtering it through, you know, what you think is best.

speaker-1 (38:57)

Yes, thank you so much for, you know, taking the time to listen and talk through things.

speaker-0 (39:02)

Absolutely, my pleasure and yeah, definitely feel free to come back and let us know how it went.

speaker-1 (39:06)

sure thing.

speaker-0 (39:10)

That wraps up this episode. you'd like to call and ask a question on the show, just go to restoredministry.com slash ask or click the link in the show notes. How it works at the moment is that once you submit your question, we'll review it. And once my team approves, you'll get a link to schedule a time to do a call with me. We'll jump on that call for 15, 20 minutes. Your face and your name will not be shown. Only your voice will be heard. So you'll be anonymous. And again, you can ask your question by going to restoredministry.com slash ask or just by clicking the link.

Lastly, as you've heard, we wanted to invite you to our weekend retreat in Philly, May 1st to 3rd. Spots are limited, we're actually almost out of spots, but you can go to restoredministry.com slash Philly for details or click the link in the show notes, whether it's for you or someone you know. And if this podcast has helped you, feel free to rate or review the show and make sure to subscribe. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. And in closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle.

and build a better life and we are here to help and keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

You’re the Third Parent: How to Break Free Without Hurting Your Siblings | Celeste: #172

At 14 or 15 years old, Celeste learned her parents’ marriage was unraveling.

Affairs.
Addiction.
Secrets.

Her siblings didn’t know.

But she did — because she was the oldest daughter.

And before long, she wasn’t just watching the marriage fall apart… she was managing it.

In this episode, Celeste shares what it was like to grow up as the “third parent” in a family where divorce was unthinkable — and what that responsibility did to her nervous system, her faith, and her ability to trust.

We talk about:

• Carrying secrets to protect the family’s image

• Panic attacks and anxiety that she didn’t know how to name

• The guilt of moving away and “leaving siblings in a burning building”

• Why even a “necessary” divorce still deeply wounds children

• And why dating now triggers intense anxiety

Celeste’s story is honest, raw, and hopeful. Because while you can survive being the third parent… At some point, you have to stop carrying everyone else.

If you were the responsible one…
If you feel guilty for wanting your own life…
If anxiety follows you into relationships…
Or if you’re afraid you’ll repeat your parents’ marriage…

This episode is for you.

Suicide Hotline: Call or Text 988 (English or Spanish)

Share Your Story

Get the Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:54)

Welcome to the Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Pannarelli. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. Around 14 or 15 years old, Celeste learned her parents' marriage was falling apart. She'd even seen the signs earlier than that. Affairs and addiction, years of hidden betrayal. Most of her siblings did not know, but she did because she was the oldest daughter.

Now at one point in high school during a car ride, her dad asked her if they should get divorced. Imagine being in high school and being asked whether your parents should get divorced or not. But Celeste didn't just watch the marriage break down, she became the mediator. She became the third parent because she tried to keep her younger siblings in line so they wouldn't trigger anger. She tried to keep secrets so that everyone outside the home wouldn't know how broken things were inside the home. She would talk to her parents into seeing each other's side, trying to be their th-

marriage therapists of sorts. She basically held the family together so no one would fall apart. And at night though, she would have panic attacks and she felt almost constant anxiety, but she didn't even know what to call it at that point. So she couldn't sleep, her chest was tight, her body would shake, she would throw up, and she didn't tell anyone. And so this episode isn't only about your parents getting divorced, but it's also about what happens when a child becomes the emotional adult or the third parent in a dysfunctional home. We hit on a bunch of different topics, like what it felt like for Celeste to carry secrets that her siblings did not know,

The guilt that she still feels and extend for moving away and leaving her siblings in a burning building, an analogy she goes into which is really deep. We talk about why even though she believes the divorce might have been necessary, it still deeply wounded her. And we also hit on why dating now brings so much anxiety for her almost immediately and so many more topics. Celeste grew up in a family where divorce was the ultimate failure, image matters, secrecy mattered, control mattered. And it's the second oldest of eight kids, the oldest daughter.

She carried responsibility that no teenager should have to carry. But thankfully, now she's rebuilding. She's working with a mentor. She's relearning how to set boundaries and have healthy relationships. She's reconstructing her faith. She's rebuilding and deepening her relationship with her family and so much more. And she's honest about how hard it is for her to trust, especially in romantic relationships. And so if you were the responsible one, if you were the one who your parents leaned on, if you left home but still feel like you abandoned your siblings, or maybe if dating feels terrifying,

because you'll afraid you'll marry the wrong person or maybe you'll repeat your parents story. Celeste's story will feel painfully familiar, but also hopeful. And I think one of the takeaways is you can survive being that third parent. You can go through that stage and do some really good and necessary things to help your family. But at some point you have to put that role down and there is a life after that. There's a lot of hope and healing ahead of you.

A few things before we dive in, we do talk about God and faith in this episode. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. My challenge for you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip those parts, you're still gonna get something out of this episode. We do also talk about some mature topics like suicide. And so if that's triggering for you or if you have kids around, I either recommend not listening or putting some earphones in. And finally, Celeste just wanted everyone to know that thankfully her siblings are much older now and they're not in harm's way. Even if home life isn't perfectly functional, it's better now.

And so they're not suffering abuse or physical harm in any way. She felt that she needed to clarify that ⁓ based on some of the things we talked about in the episode. But with that, here's our conversation.

I'm really glad we could do this. As I was reading your story on our blog, I was really moved by it. Earlier today when I was preparing for this, it actually made me tear up because you've been through so much. And so I want to dive into all of it. And I think the maybe natural place to start would be your parents' marriage. And so curious, what was the start of the breakdown of your parents' marriage as much as you can remember?

Celeste (04:24)

Thank you, it's good to be here.

Yeah. ⁓ So my parents raised us very evangelical Christian, very conservative. Divorce was the big no-no sin, right? And we kind of carried that energy for a long time. And there were a lot of things that definitely contributed to my parents' marriage breaking down. I think we went into ministry when I was around 11, and we became very isolated from other churches and other families.

Part of this was because of my mom wanting to isolate us a little bit more and stay sheltered. And part of it was for religious reasons. ⁓ I think in that isolation, it became really difficult to actually work through the problems that my parents were having. And instead of reaching out to other people for help when they started experiencing conflict, they really internalized it and kept it a secret from others.

to avoid losing supporters or ministry credit and things like that. When I was 14 or 15, both my parents came to each other and told each other that they'd had either multiple affairs or marriage-long porn addiction. And that really started a huge breakdown in our marriage. Again, this was not being shared with any of our friends or family or churches and not with my other siblings either. This was mostly just shared with me as the oldest daughter.

And so when sometimes in your previous episodes you ask if it was a high conflict or low conflict situation and for the rest of my siblings I would say they definitely probably experienced it as low conflict and didn't know that it was going on. But for me it was pretty high conflict seeing everything that was going on between the two of them and the lack of respect they had for each other especially towards the end.

Joey Pontarelli (06:36)

Okay, no, that makes sense. And that's a really wise distinction because the researchers we quote who talk about high conflict and low conflict, they basically, from what I've gathered from them, they basically say it just matters what the child sees through their eyes. And so I think you could have a situation where it is kind of both one for you and different for your siblings. Did, without going too deep into it, how old were you when all of that came to light and you learned about the problems within your parents' marriage?

Celeste (07:05)

14. It's hard to get a good timeline in these situations. Totally. You can't really get a clear one from either parent. I'm not really sure they know anymore. So yeah, so I was probably about 14 to 16 when all these things started coming to light. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (07:19)

So yeah, just beginning of high school and man, what a tender time that it's lot to carry. know your parents tried different things to heal their marriage. What do you think kept them from actually fixing it and how did the kind of like failed attempts impact you?

Celeste (07:24)

Yes.

Obviously all this is from my perspective and I don't know their motives in the situation, what was really going on in their minds. But from my perspective, it seems like they kept doing all the right things to try to fix their marriage. Like, go to counseling. ⁓ do the love dare. Or let's go through this book. Or things like that. And I don't think either of them had a great willingness to change. I think, especially in my mom's case,

the ability to see what was really going on and understand what would be needed to rebuild trust. She just wasn't there. I think they also had different levels of willingness throughout those years to see the counselor. And so they're rarely on the same page with actually wanting to find help. And I think the counselor also sided more with my father, which made it more complicated. So.

whether or not they were right in doing it, I think it definitely pushed my mom away from wanting to pursue further counseling. is great, but if you're not actually going with the intention to change and improve, there's not really a point.

Joey Pontarelli (08:43)

Yeah, I would agree with that. One of the analogies that has always stuck with me is I hurt my shoulder, like, I don't know, a couple of years ago now, and I went to PT. And there were times in which I would like do the exercises and I would go consistently and it would feel better. And there were other times where I just like wouldn't really go or wouldn't do the exercises and I would feel worse. And I think that can be so true like within marriage when you're struggling, it's like, it's great if you like show up.

PT every once in a while. great if you go to the therapist's office like once a month or something. But if you're not actually doing what they tell you to do and like working through like the wounds and trying to build new habits, then you're right. It's just kind of going through the motions. And so what I see with a lot of marriages, and I'm not saying this was necessarily the case with your parents, but it sounds like it could have been, is where like we either don't try it all or we do try, but we don't really put our hearts in it or we try, but we do too little. Like we're, you know, doing like, I don't know, one rep almost the equivalent of that.

And again, I don't want to pass judgment, I think, yeah, I think that could be so true. so then because just looking from the, the lens of like the, marriage that the couple, because they're in such a place of hurt and woundedness and everything, can feel like, ⁓ I've tried everything. I've tried everything. When in reality, it's like, okay, you went to like two counseling sessions. You did this, you read this book and you did this like love dare thing. And that was about the extent of it, but it probably feels like,

You just ran a marathon because you're just so exhausted. Would you agree or disagree?

Celeste (10:12)

think so, yeah. And from my perspective, especially when they were in the midst of it, I don't think either of them had very good mental health. Also, one parent is highly manipulative and one parent is highly apathetic to doing anything to change. And so, it definitely didn't help the situation at all.

Joey Pontarelli (10:30)

dangerous

combo there yeah okay I definitely hear you was there anything else about kind of like watching that as a their kid how that impacted you I know you touched on that but I just want to see if there's anything else you'd say

Celeste (10:41)

Yeah,

I think we'll probably talk about it later, but I am the oldest daughter and so being in the position as more of a third parent and not necessarily as another child. I know, I think it was episode 140 where your brother was on the podcast. That was probably the best episode you guys have released in my opinion. I the That one was super helpful for me because just, I think this, you guys were talking about making the oldest child the extra parent.

and how that really negatively impacts relationships with your parents in the future. Seeing that when you're a kid, you really want to help your parents out and your parents want someone to talk to, but they're not going to talk to their friends because they don't want their friends to know. And they're not going to talk to their spouse because they're arguing with their spouse. So the oldest child is the next solution. I think that was really the position that I had in the situation and trying to make them see eye to eye and trying to keep my little siblings out of it, I think was

was a big part that I had to play in the whole situation. That's how I viewed it.

Joey Pontarelli (11:42)

sense. I want to get to that and I'm excited to talk there because I think a lot of people like us are in that exact situation where they're maybe even more concerned for their siblings than they are for themselves. I know I felt that way and I remember you saying that too. But before we get there, I knew you felt many different feelings, emotions toward your parents. You mentioned anger, outrage in your article. I'm curious, what are you feeling now?

Celeste (12:04)

These days when I'm not at home, I mainly feel disappointment with my parents and some grief and seeing still some major character flaws that are negatively impacting the family. usually only feel like genuinely angry or like really, really, really sad when I go home to visit because I live several states away. And so for that reason, the holidays are usually very emotional times, but yeah, that's generally what I feel now. think

At the end of the day, I can feel angry all the time and bitter, but once you've forgiven them or are working on forgiving them, the only thing left is just sadness and almost pity, like watching people destroy their lives. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (12:45)

definitely felt that both toward my parents and some seasons and definitely like with a lot of the families that I'm interacting with it's it's just there's a sadness there I could totally agree with you. If you want to share we don't have to go into this too much like how is your relationship with them with your parents now I know you said you live out of state and so it's I'd imagine distant but yeah if you want to go into that.

Celeste (13:06)

so it is pretty distant. think I have, I have a relationship with both my parents still right now. It's very much small talk and sharing, you know, funny pictures or recipes and things like that. I think that's the only level that it can safely be at right now. ⁓ that might change in the future with my mom. That's probably where it's going to be for a long time. With my dad, things are kind of strained right now, but we're figuring some other things out. So it's always complicated, isn't it?

Joey Pontarelli (13:34)

Yeah, no, it definitely can be. I think it's naturally a little bit of a roller coaster where there's seasons where things are better and then there's times when they're not so good. I know I've gone through that ⁓ as well.

Celeste (13:47)

There's just drama that's introduced at various times and that changes everything.

Joey Pontarelli (13:52)

Yeah, but I totally got what you're saying about like the safe topics and I find myself like, like wanting to go into the deeper topics, but having to be careful and tactful and, you know, wise because sometimes it's not the smartest thing to kind of open those.

Celeste (14:05)

And for me, I still have younger siblings who are minors who are living at home. So I don't, I've decided not to go into super deep topics with my parents until my little siblings are no longer at home. That way I know even if my conversation goes poorly, their emotional reactivity is not going to be taken out on my little siblings.

Joey Pontarelli (14:22)

I get that. There's there's wisdom in that. You mentioned that you're the ⁓ second oldest of eight kids, if I got that right. You're the oldest daughter. Yeah. So you touched on this a little bit, but I want to go deeper into like, what was your role like in the family growing up? You said you were the third parent, but yeah, let's get into that a little bit more curious what that was like.

Celeste (14:40)

So I think my parents really wanted to avoid me becoming the third parent. They told me before that they didn't want me to be that position, but actions speak louder than words. And at the end of the day, I had a lot of responsibilities with taking care of siblings. Some of them were given to me and some of them I took upon myself. We were homeschooled and between being homeschooled and the situation at home,

It was a lot of responsibility put on me, sometimes explicitly, sometimes subtly, to keep these secrets in the family so that nobody would share them outside the house or we wouldn't get social services called on us, things like that. And so I really worked hard to keep my siblings in line. One of my parents has, at least at the time, had some anger issues and I would really try to keep my siblings from acting out or being, you know, acting like kids to...

prevent more physical forms of punishment from happening in my household. I love my siblings, but none of could lay low to save their lives. So that was kind of my job. And also in the middle of the divorce, ⁓ everybody was really struggling with depression. And so I felt the need to balance that out. I became insufferably joyful all the time just to try to balance out the depression that everybody was living in. So.

Joey Pontarelli (16:01)

It's heavy stuff to carry. ⁓

Celeste (16:03)

Yeah,

yeah, kids weren't meant to carry that. ⁓ But I hear a lot of the time that wasn't your responsibility. That's your parents responsibility to parent. And it's really tough to tell a kid in that situation that they shouldn't take that responsibility because if they don't do it, nobody's going to do it, even if their parents are responsible to be parents. So yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (16:23)

I would agree with that. It's ⁓ yeah, it's just the, it's a necessity. It's the, yeah, the best of like two really bad options. And I really wish it wasn't that way. But sometimes like when we live through that, we have to do the best we can with the hand that's been dealt to us.

Celeste (16:36)

Yes. So I got asked for parenting advice on a regular basis, sometimes marriage advice because, you know, a 14 year old has a lot of experience with marriage. ⁓ And so actually, when they were thinking about getting divorced, they asked me whether or not they should. ⁓ So I definitely was proud of the role that I had unknowingly. And I was really happy that I could talk people into agreeing with each other or seeing the same way.

and keeping my siblings from getting mad at my parents and keeping my parents from hurting my siblings. And upon reflection that was manipulative of me, but I did the best I could with what I had.

Joey Pontarelli (17:20)

Yeah, no, I mean, I get that and what an impossible position to be put in to give your parents marriage advice and be asked if they should get divorced. It's definitely, wow, it's a lot. You mentioned before the pressure you felt or the need to keep everything a secret from friends, from church people. That's a difficult burden to carry as well. What was that like for you? Why was there so much pressure there and what was that like for you?

Celeste (17:42)

⁓ Part of it was because we were in ministry and we were full-time supported by a bunch of churches and so there's a concern that if my parents got divorced then people would stop supporting us and so that was definitely part of the pressure. I think in the time when I grew up homeschooling was still not super popular and so there was concern that

we'd get taken away if somebody saw us outside during school hours, which sounds silly to say now, but I think part of it was just the fear mongering from my parents. ⁓ and it did contribute to keeping us isolated, whether it was intentional or not intentional. that's what happened. I think also we come from, my grandparents are both pastors and so trying to maintain that really good family image and

trying to keep up the good image of a homeschool girl and oldest daughter and Christian. Yeah, and not really understanding why my siblings couldn't see why they needed to work a little harder to keep up this image.

Joey Pontarelli (18:47)

Yeah, they probably are a little less, yeah, a little less judicious about that. It's so interesting because I remember feeling like similar pressure and I think it came from a place of like embarrassment too for us. It's like, just don't want people to know how broken things are and I don't want them to know that our family is not like their family because eventually we were surrounded by a lot of great families. And so there was that going on as well. But yeah, it is a lot to carry. It feels like you're living a lie to some extent. I mean, I guess, I guess it is.

Celeste (19:15)

Yeah,

but in that moment you don't think you're living a lie. You just think, well this is normal. I just can't tell anyone because they wouldn't understand. Like, I can't tell anyone about my mom's anger issues. They just wouldn't understand that it's just out of love and discipline, you know?

Joey Pontarelli (19:30)

Okay, real talk, if you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people and it was really helpful for me personally. In the guide, he breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make like under eating, over stressing, or focusing too much on the scale and he gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use that you can implement today.

And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally. Yeah, no, I get that. And I remember a friend of mine coming over and it was during a really tumultuous time in my family. My dad and my mom were separated and the police would often get involved because there was an order of protection and it get broken. And so I remember her being over and the cops show up and I'm like,

and I told her nothing about any of this and it was just so embarrassing. Then of course I would open up to her and be like, here's what's actually going on. I just didn't want to burden my friends with it as well. That was another consideration. like, I don't want, I don't know if I necessarily had situations like this in the past, but I've heard this from a lot of people where you maybe go to friends who haven't really suffered much in life and haven't been through anything like this, of course, and you tell them these things and they don't really know what to say. And sometimes you even get a bad reaction. So I think a of us, yeah, a lot of us kind of learn well.

I'm gonna keep it to myself. I don't wanna burden them with it. I'm embarrassed, all the things we said. Would you find that to be true?

Celeste (21:02)

Definitely. I didn't have any close friends growing up outside of my siblings and we hadn't reached the point yet where we would talk about our parents' issues. I don't think I told anybody about the problems until my parents were already pretty ready to get divorced and about to move out and I was probably 18 at that point. I remember thinking, you're just using this as an excuse.

Like I had told a friend on Sunday, because I was feeling tired and I didn't really want to talk to her very much and I said, I'm sorry, I'm just tired, my parents are going to get a divorce. And I was like, ⁓ like that was one of the first times I'd ever told anybody that this was going to happen. And I felt really guilty because I was just using it as an excuse that I didn't want to talk to her. I was really, really careful not to use my parents' divorce as an excuse for anything, for any negative feelings that I was experiencing.

And I would tell you probably throughout most of the time that any mental health problems I was having was not at all related to my parents' issues. Again, now as an adult I see that it definitely was and I needed to talk to people, but I just didn't.

Joey Pontarelli (22:07)

Why do you think you didn't see the connection between the two?

Celeste (22:10)

As an adult, now looking back, I would say that I was just really wanting to avoid the blame game and seeing how a lot of kids, once they grow up and leave the house, they say all kinds of terrible things about their parents and then they leave them. I didn't want to be that kind of person. And also my parents, you know, consistently played the blame game with each other and I didn't want to be like them at all. I wanted to take responsibility for anything in my life, which ended up in me blaming myself for pretty well everything. And so

I think that's, that's probably.

Joey Pontarelli (22:41)

sense. And what have you landed on now in terms of like that balance between taking ownership versus acknowledging maybe when someone played a role and causing harm?

Celeste (22:50)

You know, I can point to many, many things or character issues in my life that may have resulted from my parents getting divorced, but I might have struggled with them anyway, is part of it. And also, like, even if all of my character flaws came from my parents' marriage struggles or my parents' sin issues, I'm still responsible to change them. And that's one of the toughest truths I think kids of divorce have to have to come to terms with is that, yeah, it's not very fair that you have to...

be the person to do the work to break these cycles, but that's how it is. And I think the faster you can make your peace with that, the faster you can actually.

Joey Pontarelli (23:25)

I would agree with that the way I would like to think about it and you might have heard me say this before is that you might not have caused the problems But you're in charge of the solution Which stinks sometimes? But but but it's real and it's like if you I think the victim mentality victimhood thing comes in when we like you said continue to blame and we're waiting for someone else to solve the things that No one else is gonna solve we are the ones who have to solve it even if we didn't cause them

Celeste (23:50)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And you just think of what life do I want? And, you know, I want a family and kids someday and I want it to be healthy and happy. And it's not going to happen if I keep martyring myself over the situation. And so it's important to grieve that and really lament that it happened and not just blame it all on yourself. But it is also important to take responsibility to break the cycle in yourself.

Joey Pontarelli (24:20)

Yeah, I'm with you there. I think that's really well said. I want to shift gears a little bit to kind of the emotional struggles that you've wrestled with. I've wrestled with them as well. So you mentioned that you would deal with nighttime panic attacks and anxiety. I'm curious, you know, what triggered the panic attacks and the anxiety from what you could tell.

Celeste (24:39)

So again, as an adult, I can look back and see that the major instability in my parents' relationship was affecting that. And having so much responsibility to take on at a young age really put me in a high state of stress all the time. And panic attacks would just be a natural expression of that. ⁓ at the time, because I was in such a religiously isolated household, I thought I was for sure demon possessed or something.

which is terrifying when you're 14 and don't have any context for mental health. So I didn't talk to anybody about it because I thought it was too big for any adults to handle normally. And so, yeah, I was just always afraid that I would do something that I didn't want to do. This sounds a little silly looking back, but it feels very real and very dark for a kid who's not sharing those thoughts with anybody.

Joey Pontarelli (25:10)

Yeah.

That's too much to carry, especially, yeah, just when there's like a, that spiritual misunderstanding of like what you said is a human experience of like, just really anxious. I'm in like fight or flight mode all the time. I'm like, yeah, the hyper arousal that we sometimes talk about of like just survival mode. It's a tough spot to be in. Okay. And do you remember, was there any particular focus of those panic attacks? Like, was it the kind of fear, the demonic fear, or was it something else or did it just kind of run the gamut of like.

different things that they would be focused on.

Celeste (25:58)

Yeah, I think the majority of the focus that I had would be religious in nature. Whether I was afraid that I had committed too great of a sin or something demonic or a big fear that I would kill myself, which again really goes to show how bad my mental health was at the time. But because I wasn't able to express that, I just kept waffling on it for years. And so it never really changed to

my parents are getting divorced and I'm scared about that. It was mostly still the religious stuff that I was spiraling about. Yeah. looking back at the time, I can see that that was mostly just the expression of the instability that I was already experiencing in the household. And because I thought that this parental's conflict was normal, I wouldn't have known to point to that as the problem.

Joey Pontarelli (26:50)

Yeah, no totally. How could you in the midst of it? It's really difficult to make sense of something when you're going through it, especially as a young person. I can't agree more. I want to talk about anxiety, but first I'm curious. You mentioned suicide. Was that ever a temptation for you? Was that ever seen as like a, like I'm done with this?

Celeste (27:08)

Yes, I think less in the sense that I wanted to die and more in the sense that I didn't want to live the way I was living anymore. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (27:16)

Totally makes sense. What would you say to someone maybe who's there right now? Like obviously you're in a better spot now than you were then, which is beautiful. So imagine someone's listening right now and they're like at that spot where they don't wanna take their own life, but they just don't wanna live with the pain.

Celeste (27:23)

Yes.

Yeah,

I would encourage them to talk to somebody about it, even if they're not wanting to go as deep as to say, I want to kill myself right now. ⁓ I really would like them to tell somebody that, but even just being able to express the emotions. I didn't know that anxiety was a thing. I just thought something was completely wrong with my body and I couldn't stop shaking and throwing up. But nothing's wrong with you.

You need to get it out and talk to somebody about it. And there are safe adults. And also, your situation may not going to be changing immediately, especially if you are stuck at home still. But your emotions about the situation can change. And there is something about that and about your mental health that you can always that can always get better. That's what I would encourage my past self with is that

know your whole life isn't going to be stuck in these panic attacks and your whole life isn't going to be spent trying to navigate between your parents and your siblings and there can be a happy future ahead and you just got to hang in there a little bit longer. I don't know if that's great advice if it's coming from a therapeutic perspective but that's what I would have told my past son.

Joey Pontarelli (28:45)

Yes, okay. No, you and I are not therapists. So we're just kind of speaking as ourselves like to the younger version of us and no I love that and we'll link to the suicide hotline as well That's like a great resource because sometimes people are just embarrassed to talk with someone they know and admit that they're thinking about that

Celeste (29:00)

It's really great to find someone who doesn't care or know your family at all to talk about them with it.

Joey Pontarelli (29:05)

Totally, like an outside perspective where there's, yeah, totally agree with that. So that's where that hotline could be good. And then I think ideally you would move ⁓ to someone who not necessarily is like involved in your family life, but someone maybe who's a little bit closer to where you are and not just something like stranger, because it's really good to have people who can walk with you through all that, like a therapist, but we'll at least link to that. And I'd recommend that. And one of the things that, you know, in my darkest times, like I would go back to, and that's just been helpful for other people is like,

Imagine a life if you could snap your fingers and imagine a life in which you weren't living with the pain that you're experiencing now. Would you want to live? And almost always the answer is like, yes, of course. So then the question becomes, how do we get to that place? And that's what you said, it might not happen right away, which is hard. That's not easy. I want to skip over that. But hopefully you and I even are proof that actually you can get through that. You're on your own now. You're not living at home.

Celeste (29:57)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (30:02)

from, you I know there's still struggles in life, but life is better than it was then for you.

Celeste (30:06)

So

good. And it's not perfect. And there's days, you know, where I'm depressed or struggle with anxiety. But my life is so good right now. I just live a very boring normal life. But comparatively to my high school life, it's so good. I wish my high school and early college self would be able to know that it's going to be okay. And it was, it's so good now. Even just a boring normal life is so good.

Joey Pontarelli (30:32)

Yeah, I would echo that and just to kind of add my end of the proof to anyone listening who's maybe struggling in this area. like I was super afraid of relationships, which we're going to talk about a little bit later. I was afraid of marriage. I didn't really see that. I thought it was unattainable for me. Couldn't do it. Now I'm married. I've been married almost eight years now and I have three kids and I absolutely love it. It's great. Marriage is hard. I've said that a lot in the show. There's definitely been seasons where

It's been harder than others, but there's a lot of joy in it too. And being a dad, my gosh, it's so good. I just love it. There's something about having kids. It's hard to understand this when you don't have kids. Probably having siblings would be the closest approximation. Maybe if you have nieces and nephews, you can kind of get that feeling too. But man, something about having kids, it's just like, it's really, really beautiful. So if we got through it, you can too. And that's, think, the message of hope that we'd want to leave you with on that topic at least. Beautiful.

One of the things you said that really stuck out to me was that you said you didn't have a name for your anxiety. I think a lot of people have that same experience. I know I did in high school and even I think the beginning of college. So if you were to explain it without using the term anxiety, I'm curious, like how would you put it into words now, especially imagine that someone who's like experiencing that, but they also don't have the word anxiety. Like what would, what could they relate to? What was going on inside of you?

Celeste (31:53)

I just called it overthinking at the time. Interesting. I was just like, I'm such an over thinker or my parents would tell me I'm such an over thinker when it's like your thoughts are spiraling and you don't even realize that you're spiraling or feeling anxious because you think you're just thinking logically and trying like you owe it to yourself to think through the worst possible scenario and some people don't have a whole like

panic attack where their body just shuts down and starts shaking or they want to throw up. Like that's what happened to me, but that doesn't happen to everybody. Often it's just like that cold, hot feeling that goes all the way through you. Similar to guilt, honestly, or just not being able to stop thinking for any second of any day. I remember that was when it was really bad where just every second of every hour of every day, it was just constantly never being able to turn my brain off. ⁓ That's how I would describe it without actually saying the word anxiety.

Joey Pontarelli (32:52)

Yeah, okay, that's really good. What about like tightness in your chest? I can throw out a few things that I experienced.

Celeste (32:56)

That's

definitely a thing. Other people, like, I think they'll get like a tingling on their fingers and in their mouth and think they're dying because they can't catch their breath, but it's really because they're just breathing too fast. And that's actually a clinical thing. I think that's very common. I see that in other people a lot. Definitely tightness in your chest, like you can't get a full breath. I felt a lot of emotions in my stomach when I wasn't crying or processing when I needed to. And so it just feels like a stomach ache.

or like you constantly feel weighed down. remember there was a period of time where I was just always walking hunched over. There's nothing wrong with me physically. I just, couldn't bear it all.

Joey Pontarelli (33:36)

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to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restoredministry.com slash books or just click the link in the show notes. I mean, the emotional kind of manifests in the physical. It's wild. And anyone who's read The Body Keeps the Score, there's a lot of science behind it. It's not just a kind of woohoo thing. No, it's so interesting. What I would say on my end, like what I experienced was everything you said. Thankfully, it wasn't, I didn't have the panic attack, so I was definitely lucky. I've been with people who've had them.

at all. And I would think the overthinking thing is so interesting. That's what I would say too. Like my brain almost felt like it was on fire at times. Like I couldn't, like you said, shut it off. And it was like, yeah, just moving really quickly and not being able to sleep, I think is kind of a hallmark to at least what I experienced where you're just like laying there and your body's tired, but your brain just like will not shut off. I also, for me, there was like an aspect of like OCD too. Like there was like a perfectionism in me that kind of got worse when I was more anxious.

Celeste (35:23)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (35:32)

So I don't know if that's a typical experience of people, just thinking through what I was experiencing. And then I think like the way I probably would have told you then in high school was like, I just felt like a total lack of peace. Like I didn't feel calmness. I just, knew that I didn't know exactly what I was experiencing, but I was like, I didn't, I don't feel peace. think I was able to put the word like worry to what I was feeling. ⁓ but, but that was probably the extent of it. I really didn't know much about anxiety or that that was a thing.

Celeste (36:00)

couple turning points when it started getting better. One of them was I was really scared about the fact that I wasn't sleeping through the night and one night I was just like, so what then I'll stay up all night. And actually that's a tool for defeating anxiety is just being like, so what then I'll do it deal with it anyway. I think a little bit of carelessness. I don't know if I just gotten so tired, I didn't care anymore. But I think that helped. ⁓ I did finally open up slightly, maybe not completely to my mom about the situation.

And just sharing it, I think, brought some light to it. And then once my parents actually signed the divorce papers a couple of years later, I think also my anxiety improved a lot. So I'm just not waiting for it to happen anymore. And it's done.

Joey Pontarelli (36:45)

Yeah, there's some level of closure. I can definitely see that. So there's a book I haven't read yet, but I trust the guy who wrote it. It's Dr. John Deloney. If you guys are familiar with Ramsey Solutions, he's like one of their personalities. And he wrote a book called Redefining Anxiety, I think it's this one. No, I'm sorry. There's two books. There's Redefining Anxiety, which is like a booklet. And then there's another one called Building a Non-Anxious Life, which is like a big full-size book. So.

I would recommend that if anyone's kind of in this anxiety trap and you're just wanting peace, which I think is what we all want in the midst of that situation. And again, I think when you're in it, it can feel like, how am I ever going to turn this off? But you can. And one of the things I think that was helpful for me, Sus, was just learning that it wasn't just like in my mind, it's actually like in your body. yeah, that was helpful. For some reason, I thought it was just like a mental thing, but there's physical aspects to it.

Celeste (37:39)

Doing cardio is really helpful for just a basic thing. not a big working out person by any stretch of the imagination, but going for a run or going up like this to your climber at the gym is really helpful when I'm dealing with anxiety or depression because if I'm really depressed, sometimes it'll give me a little bit of a boost and if I'm really anxious, it can burn off all that extra energy and I think it helps me sleep better at night. So that's something that's helped me as well.

Joey Pontarelli (38:05)

Yeah, it's been similar with me in terms of like exercise and yeah, I'm sure there's, know there's a lot of science behind it and probably has something to do with endorphins pumping into your body. But, but yeah, I found like the physical thing that there was this phrase a friend of mine told me in high school and she, said like, this is this idea of like, we have this idea of like mind over matter. But sometimes like we can get stuck in our minds and we can't really solve things like that, especially if we're stuck in an anxiety loop or OCD.

Celeste (38:32)

it's as bad as it is.

Joey Pontarelli (38:33)

Yeah, yeah, so this idea of like body over mind is really powerful. It's like get out of your head get into your body so to speak and move and that will help you ⁓ Change your emotional state and I think I don't know if there's another way like I think I think prayer can do that to some extent But so often when you're sucking an anxiety loop, especially if you're dealing with OCD It's actually not super helpful in the midst of it, which sounds kind of strange But but I think it there's a place for it, of course, but I think you kind of need to break the loop and get into a

place where you're like changing your physical state.

Celeste (39:04)

And you know, from my perspective, God created prayer to help us out and Bible verses, but he also created our bodies and knows what we need. And some people, it's helpful to recite a Bible verse when they're feeling anxious. But when I was so far down my anxiety, ⁓ I needed like therapy and mental help before I could even be in a healthy place to talk about God or have a healthy relationship with him. And that's not

I don't think that's on spiritual or on godly. I think it's just using other tools that God has given us.

Joey Pontarelli (39:35)

I would agree with that. sorry, I kind of made a generalization. I don't think it's never helpful for someone to do those things. Like sometimes prayer does actually bring a lot of peace and yeah, totally. But I think, think in this scenario we're describing is like when you're like at a really high edge of like you're a nine or a 10 or maybe even eight on that scale of like anxiety.

then it's like you need to kind of back down a little bit more before that some of those other things can be helpful if you're in that state. But it's different for everyone and I think if you're lower on the scale, then I think those other things do help right away. So sorry for making that generalization. Good deal. Yeah, hopefully that's helpful to anyone who's dealing with anxiety or panic attacks. You're not alone. We've been through it too and I think it is really helpful putting what you're feeling in towards as a research that says that will help you feel better faster.

Celeste (40:09)

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

Joey Pontarelli (40:24)

And yeah, like you said, so I'll like move your body and do some of the other things that you had mentioned. So, so good. I want to shift a little bit over to, yeah, just the divorce. So I'm curious, initially you agreed with the kind of conclusion your parents came to that they should get divorced. And then later you changed your perspective on that. I'm curious, like what caused you to change?

Celeste (40:50)

So, initially my dad presented all the facts to me ⁓ and I had only been hearing them from my mom's perspective up until that time about all the things that dad had done to contribute to the downfall of their marriage. But I think dad was driving me to some church conference and he just kind of laid out what everything was going on and the things that mom had done that had really contributed to the situation. And I was already at a point as a teenager where I was becoming disillusioned with

both parents anyway. But then during that card ride, he asked me like, Oh, what do you think we should do about it? And when somebody lays it out for you like that, there's really only one option. That's to say, yeah, I think you should get divorced. And so I think I would still say that my parents are better off. I don't know if this is a good thing to say or not, but I think it's probably better off separate. One could say that the best thing would have for them never to have gotten married in the first place, but that's not really an option. And I wouldn't be here.

So I think what changed was a couple years later when I was or maybe only one or two years later. Again, the timeline is a little sketchy. ⁓ When I got to college and I started talking with a older woman ⁓ in a kind of a counseling mentoring situation, ⁓ and she told me to write down every way that my parents divorce had actually affected me. And that's when I stopped blaming all of my anxiety and

family issues on myself and taking full responsibility for all of other people's issues and just honestly and respectfully saying, yeah, this really affected this. And this really contributed to why I think the way I do. I also was looking for resources for adult children of divorce, of which there are not a lot at the time. and I found this one book called Primal Loss and it's the now adult children of divorce speak and it's just people

compiled all of the stories of these adult children of divorce and put them in one place so the kids could actually have a voice. And reading through that made me see that even if divorce was the best option for your family, it still is not good and it really sucks. Even if, like in an abusive situation, there was some abuse with my household and different for different siblings.

Seeing that even with that going on, divorce still sucks and it might be the best option for a family, but it's really going to negatively impact you. And being honest about that, and I think that's what made me change my mind.

Joey Pontarelli (43:28)

Yeah, I love that you found Primal Loss. It's a tough read, but it's a good one.

Celeste (43:33)

I would not recommend going at it in one go.

Joey Pontarelli (43:38)

It's like chewing wood, it's hard. It's gonna take some time.

Celeste (43:40)

Yeah,

you kind of feel like your insides are all hollowed out like a pumpkin at Halloween after reading that, you know?

Joey Pontarelli (43:48)

great

description. Yeah, no, for sure. But I recommend it. We'll link to it in the show notes. There was an episode where the author, the one who compiled it, like edited it, Laila Miller came on the show. And so if you guys are interested in that, you can check it out. And I think if I'm remembering right, she's become a good friend. And so we've had a conversation, but I think she gives the book away for free now for on digital. So if you want, if you can't afford it, you can get the digital one at least for free. And then if you want the physical copy, of course, you can grab it on Amazon. But yeah,

That's a great recommendation. The other thing that you mentioned in your story is that you were at college when the divorce started and finished, I believe, unless I maybe got that wrong, please correct me. I'm curious what that experience was like for you and what I'm getting at there is I actually think it's really common for people to go off to college and their parents to start a divorce because sometimes the parents are like waiting for the kids to go to college or the first one or whatever. So I'm like, I know multiple people where that's happened. And so I'm curious, yeah, what was that experience like being at college, seeing it from afar?

Celeste (44:47)

think it's called gray divorce now because, you know, they have gray hair. But it is a lot more common these days. So I think for me, a lot of the hardships about my parents divorce all happened before they actually did get divorced because I was in that third parent role at home growing up. When I moved out, I had to get out. I was 18. I moved several states away. never seen, I didn't know a soul where I was moving to. I'd never even visited the college I was going to go to.

I just needed to get out and I knew that I was leaving my siblings behind in a rough spot. And in that moment, I didn't even care because I had to get out and I can get into that more later. But I think just witnessing it from afar, feeling like you can't get the whole story and you don't have as many opportunities to connect. And I definitely didn't talk to my family very much for probably the first two years that I moved away. I just needed space and I wish I would have called more.

⁓ Especially I wish I would have called my siblings more during that time, but I needed space to figure out what kind of person I needed to be, what it meant to be a Christian and who God actually was, and how to be healthy again.

Joey Pontarelli (46:01)

I'm excited to dive into this topic because there's such a tension there when we're presented with this option to leave home and be on our own and maybe get the space like you said we need, hopefully the healing that we need to be able to become our own person, like to grow all the things. But then we see our siblings and especially for those, I was number two in my family as well and yeah, our heart's kind of torn. So we're gonna get into that. Before we do, I want to go back to something you said before, because I didn't mean to gloss over it. You mentioned how your parents,

are seemingly better off now. And I wanted to touch on that because I think that sometimes maybe people misunderstand me. I think that's a common experience for parents who get divorced. Because imagine, depending on the scenario, they were maybe in this situation where there's a ton of conflict, maybe not, maybe it was just a little conflict situation, but the marriage was struggling and they didn't put the effort in that was needed, or whatever the case. I don't want to paint with too broad a brush. But I think that when a ⁓ problem

or trigger is like removed from your life, it's kind of natural that your life would get better. And so I've seen that with my parents too. I've seen it with others where it's like, no, there's actually like a step toward like some peace and maybe things improve. Now I will say this, what often happens is that people want to say that it's all happy and all good. And I know you're not saying that, but we got to be careful here because it's like, I now see how my parents are kind of lonely. And

There's a lot of other things that like definitely like breaks my heart for them too. So it's not all just like sunshine and rainbows. It's like that there's some definitely some downsides to that. And then without even mentioning, which is what you covered already so well, I don't feel the need to rehash it, the impact on the kids, which is the hardest part. And so even in those situations, like you said so well, where yes, maybe a divorce is.

necessity because there's abuse or other high conflict stuff going on, it can still have really detrimental effects even if some of the people involved are actually better off, it's still a difficult thing to go through.

Celeste (47:56)

I think, especially seeing its impact on my siblings. And one thing that I find super ironic about divorce when you have kids is that you get divorced so you don't have to spend time with this person and live with them anymore, but you have to communicate almost more than you did before because now you have

kids who have lives and activities that you have to coordinate and you have to figure out who's sitting where and then you bring more spouses into it and then it gets more complicated and divorce isn't going to solve all your problems either, especially if you have children, you're still going to have to see that person on regular basis unless they're in jail or something. So it's not an end-all solution to marriage problems and it might be the best solution in some situations, especially in some abusive situations, but again, it's going to hurt everybody.

Joey Pontarelli (48:41)

Yeah, yeah, totally. No, I've mentioned this before in the show, but the military, ⁓ I've heard the Rangers do this on the army Rangers. They put their people in what's called like a lose lose situation, especially they're like officers because they want them to, this is in training. They want them to learn what it's like to be faced with like two really bad options and then be forced to make a decision. And in so many ways, I think, you know, some, not all divorces, but some divorces are like that. It's like, no, it's like a really, really bad situation.

And I know we didn't really even touch on the religious aspect of like the belief that marriage is for life and the divorce is like breaking that deep, deep bond. and we don't need to necessarily need to hash that out here, but, but that's another thing I just wanted to kind of give a little bit of a footnote to, because it is a super important and big conversation there as well. This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary

Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 430 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado.

and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Blackstone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it.

Shifting to your siblings now, this one's so near and to my heart, because I love my siblings. And in the same way that you kind of had to become that third parent, I definitely took, switched my younger siblings under my wing and basically became their dad for a season, right? And there was a lot of good that came from that. There was obviously some challenges and some detriment that came from it, but there was a lot of good that came from it. But you mentioned in your story that the hardest part for you,

What was not really the pain that your parents caused you, but rather the pain that caused your siblings and seeing that was just like so grueling. How does your sibling struggle to as much as you want to share? Yeah. And then we can go deeper into this.

Celeste (51:08)

Yeah, and the broadest generalizations. I think all of my siblings have struggled with mental health, especially depression, SI, as a result of the fallout. I think my siblings were pretty blindsided by it. Some of them didn't even know that my parents were struggling in their marriage until the week before my mom moved out. So that was tough for them, I think, because I was moving out.

about the same, I think the same month they got separated. My younger sister stepped up into that third parent role a lot of the time and being my parents' therapists and taking care of my little siblings because my parents were going through it and that's the big thing about divorce is like your kids need emotional care and support but you're going through it yourself and sometimes you don't have a lot of that emotional intelligence to give that or the emotional space to give it and my siblings didn't really receive the help that they needed, I felt. Another

odd thing is that my siblings don't really remember any of our childhoods. I would say I'm probably the sibling that remembers the most, if anything, and like I'll bring up a memory and none of them will remember anything. And so sometimes I wonder if my, if the whole situation was really as bad as I think it was and then I remember that none of my siblings remember anything and I think that's a sign. So also siblings definitely see things differently and have different struggles. I think that's

really important thing for older siblings who move out to remember is that you might have a problem with this parent, but your sibling might have a completely different experience. That parent might be a lifeline to them and the other parent is the one that they're really struggling with. So I think that's kind of kind of how I've noticed the struggle happening. There's also, I think, a complete lack of any respect left for my parents left at home because my siblings are all having to be adults, even at like 14, you know.

Joey Pontarelli (53:01)

Yeah, no, I'm tracking with you there. And no, I think everything he said is like my experience as well. So I'm with you. I'm curious, like, what was the experience you touched on this a little bit before? What was the experience like for you just watching your siblings struggle, watching them go through the things that you mentioned both when you were at home and then at college too, which brings on a different dimension.

Celeste (53:21)

At home, I could... I didn't know how to set boundaries or avoid codependency at that times. I definitely tried to dig them out of their own holes as much as possible when I lived at home still. But when I moved away to college, a lot of my siblings didn't have phones yet or any way of contacting them. So if I wanted to talk to a sibling, I had to call a parent. And so I definitely avoided talking to them for a long time. Even if your sibling hasn't done anything to hurt you.

still even just talking to them just just brings back everything from home and there's guilt that comes along with that so much guilt and not knowing if your siblings are okay or not and then every couple months you get an update this sibling has been making more dark jokes like maybe we should be worried about them or finally this sibling has therapy but none of the other siblings get therapy for some reason and so there are a lot of inconsistencies between how siblings received help and

wanting my siblings to see that there was hope and change like I was finally experiencing, but that's a long road ahead that they had, you know, and they weren't gonna get out anytime soon. So yeah, that's kind of what it was like watching from afar. I still only go home a couple times a year. Sometimes I'll invite my youngest siblings to come stay their spring break with me. And that's always a fun time and that's helpful, but.

I know my younger siblings have said like, ⁓ it's Christmas. That means the older siblings are home. We're to have to have deep conversations. And when you go home as an older sibling, you feel like you got to get all your deep conversations in now because this is the only face to face time you're going to have with them. And also I think I worried a lot. I still worry sometimes how my siblings may resent me for the choice I made to move away when they needed me most.

Joey Pontarelli (54:56)

I love that.

Celeste (55:07)

Because for me, it was bad for years and then I left home. But for them, the bad part really started when I left. so, you know, with parents of divorce, I feel like kids never are 100 % honest with their parents about how they actually feel because they don't want to their parents. And I feel like my siblings probably withhold a little bit of that as well.

But at the end of the day, it's not my job to project what I imagine they might be feeling about me. And having to move on from that is really a challenge.

Joey Pontarelli (55:40)

Let's get into that. But what you said, my goodness, it was hard for you leading up to the divorce or leading up to when you left. And then it was harder for them after you left. Wow. Yeah. So difficult. I think this whole question of like moving out or moving back in after school is a really, again, tough one for people like us because in so many ways, you know, I'm sure you can relate. I just like.

never wanted to abandon my siblings. That was something I felt very strongly about it because I had felt abandoned in so many ways. so going to college like was really hard for me. And then, eventually I did move home for a little bit and I was working and then eventually I moved close to where my now wife, Bridget was living. So I moved there, got an apartment and I was able to live like five minutes from her. So we were able to actually date and not just to the long distancing, but that, was a tough decision as well. So

So anyway, it's a tricky one. And I remember from your article, you said that you really felt helpless to really make an impact or a difference at home. You were obviously doing as much good as you could, but you knew that there was a limit to that. And so you made the decision that you needed to not move back home after college, even though, which was just like, honestly, I think this is the part that made me tear up, even though you were afraid that someone might kill themselves or something really bad would happen. So.

Talk me through that decision, what were you feeling when you were going through, like, what do I do, do I do this, do do that?

Celeste (57:06)

I think the decision not to move back to the state where my family lives is probably the hardest decision I've ever made. And it's not just a one-time decision either. There were times throughout college where I was like, maybe I should just move back to Texas and go to college there. Times after college, multiple times and through different career changes or anytime I changed churches or something like that, I would consider, maybe this is a sign that I need to move back to Texas. Anytime any of my siblings I heard

we're struggling with severe mental health problems, I would think maybe this is my sign to move back home, you know? ⁓ And so it's a decision I have to make on a very regular basis. Really, it's a decision I have to make any time I visit my family. I have to decide whether or not I'm going to move back home. Sometimes when I visit my family, I drive away and I can't drive away fast enough. And other times when I visit, it's really hard and

I start thinking of every way on the drive home that I can possibly change my career, uproot my life, leave my church, and move back to my family. And so, again, that's probably the toughest decision I will ever have to make. And I think only people who have been in a similar position can completely understand.

You get a lot of nice therapy advice that says you have to put your oxygen mask on before you put somebody else's on. But it doesn't feel like that. It feels like you're in the same burning building and you run out without waiting to see if your sibling makes it out. You know? And it feels like you're just leaving your sibling in this burning building and you're not going back in after them. And I don't know if that's a healthy way of thinking about it. It probably is not, but that's how it feels.

And you know, people will also say, ⁓ it's your parents responsibility to parent your siblings and you need to be a sister, but not a parent. And who's going to do it if I don't. And especially seeing how parentified my sisters were after I left home and watching them save my other siblings lives or struggle with it themselves. Yeah, it's really tough. Additionally, I've noticed that the sibling who moves out or speaks up often becomes the black sheep and the parent often

has some negative things to say about them. And sometimes that can really negatively impact your sibling relationships. Thankfully that's not been the case with me. But yeah, that's been really tough. Learning that siblings see things differently. My biggest point of conflict and struggle has been with my mom, but a lot of my siblings has been with my dad. And I didn't understand that as much until just this year when one of my siblings moved in with me. And so having to face, hey,

Sometimes there's not a good parent and a bad parent. Sometimes there's just two people who are really difficult to deal with. And so you just feel so obligated to throw out all that nice advice you receive in therapy and run back and take care of your siblings. And even if you do make the choice to move out and become a healthy person and get a nice foundation and get started, you can never stop thinking about the family you left behind. And that's a tough truth to swallow.

And that's the price you pay, I guess, for being able to be healthy and live and live, period.

Joey Pontarelli (1:00:22)

No, so good. I think the analogy of running out of the building makes a ton of sense. You know, I see what other people say about the oxygen mask and that makes sense too, but I think that is more accurate to what it actually feels like being in the building. And yeah, I think, you know, I definitely have been in that, those situations too, where it's like, things are so dire. If I don't take action right now, like, yeah, it's going to be really bad.

Celeste (1:00:41)

They're all gonna die.

No.

Joey Pontarelli (1:00:47)

I've been in that scenario too. And so it's like, you gotta do something. Like there's a cost of an action too. And yes, the idea would be to have, I don't know, relatives involved or a therapist or a pastor or something. And that's something I think that's good to work towards. I think sometimes we can maybe be so blinded or like our heads down in the, you know, the mess of it all that we don't actually maybe ask for help or know, no, we even know where to ask or who to ask for help.

And so I think that's something that is worth pursuing for sure. But I think when you're in the midst of it, you're not thinking of those things. And so you're just like in survival mode and you like want to take care of everyone and I get that as well. And yeah, no, it's definitely a difficult thing. was like a really grueling, I remember like pulling away for college that like definitely brought tears to my eyes and yeah, and even, you know, leaving afterward to like, not just kind of go in the next chapter of my life, but you know, ever to live at home again in a lot of ways. Yeah, it does kind of feels like you're battling on everyone.

Maybe a bad anger.

Celeste (1:01:43)

point because I had kind of a topsy-turvy college experience where I changed majors a lot of times and changed schools but still did not choose to move back home and I think the moment when I had been away for four years five years six years and my little siblings realized that they didn't have to keep asking me ⁓ are you almost done with college and gonna move home because I just wasn't gonna move home and

Again, upon reflection, probably could have communicated that to them a little bit better. But how do you tell your little baby siblings that, nope, sorry, you're still stuck and I'm still gonna go live my life. That's.

Joey Pontarelli (1:02:22)

Yeah. No, it is really hard. They might not be able to understand that. And yeah, and obviously, you know, we're not saying that there's some scenarios where you can move back home or live near your family and hopefully have good boundaries in place. But sometimes it does necessitate you being taken quite a bit of space, at least for a season. And hopefully getting to a better spot where you can maybe, you know, reenter things, but maybe not to.

Celeste (1:02:44)

And you know, you think about some of these things and it's not safe or good or healthy for you to stay in the place or stay at home. Or least that's how it was for me. So maybe you don't get to see your siblings very often, but you're just a baby adult and you don't even pay for your own phone plan. You don't even have a car. Okay, so just start small. Start with trying to get a job and saving up enough money so you can buy a car and go visit your siblings.

Or you can buy yourself a phone or even maybe in some cases your sibling a phone so you can contact them still. And being able to establish yourself as an adult. So when you have a place to live someday, you can get somewhere that has a spare bedroom. So one of them can come live with you or things like that. And I've heard of older siblings dropping everything and having all of their siblings move in with them and taking care of them in really serious situations. Obviously the state would have to get involved for that.

And I really admire and respect that. And sometimes in my peak of I'm going to save everybody, I just remember thinking like, oh, maybe I could do something like that. And it wasn't practical. And the truth of the matter is things weren't to a level where the state would take my siblings away or give them guardianship to me. The kind of abuse that happened in our household is not something you can put a finger down on. And they had food in the fridge and a roof over their heads. And so it's tough when it's

bad enough that it shouldn't stay the same, but it's not bad enough for anybody to intervene.

Joey Pontarelli (1:04:15)

That's a hard spot to be in. But I think, yeah, what you said makes a lot of sense. And I think like doing the little things to help your siblings, like you said, is so good. And even if that means buying them a phone or doing something like that, it's such a difficult topic. And I think one of the things you wrote, I want to read that now, really hits a nail in the head. It just kind of doubles down on what you just said. You said this, you said, if you're leaving little siblings behind, know that we don't get to choose when our chance for escape comes. We have to take it when it comes.

because you don't know if you'll get the chance to get out and heal again. Unfortunately, it rarely happens at the same time as your sibling's chance. This is awful. You can't change that. You can work hard to heal and establish yourself and thrive so that when your sibling's chance comes, you'll be waiting to help them, whether that's saving a room for them in your apartment or having a car to drive them away or learning how adult life works so you can teach them how to function. Still well said.

anything you would add to that?

Celeste (1:05:15)

Yeah, well, it's taken me like eight years and a lot of therapy to get to this point where I can say that. And there's not days where it's not still hard, but I think I've come to a place of more peace with it. One thing I would add is that it's really important for siblings who are children of divorce to unite and have that sibling loyalty that you can't have with anybody else instead of letting your parents manipulation or

trying to make you choose sides, break you apart. And I think something that me and all of my siblings have, or a lot of my siblings have had to deal with is when one of our parents starts bad mouthing a sibling or a sibling who's moved out of the house. And I think all of my siblings can agree with me. Like your parent can say anything bad that they want about you or they can say anything hurtful or do anything hurtful to you. But when it comes to your sibling, like you're gonna fight for them.

And there's obviously complications within sibling relationships, and it's not necessarily that way with all of my siblings, but with the majority of us, I think like finally we're at a place where we really want to stay in for each other. And regardless of what happens with our parents, they're going to keep screwing our relationships up. And we've noticed some manipulation happening that has intentionally tried to push the siblings apart and we don't want that to happen. And I would say one of my greatest joys in life, and I

I know this sounds cliche to say that, I don't, it's truly from my heart. I think my greatest joy is watching my siblings succeed and become the adults who would have kept us safe as kids. Watching my siblings actually have passions and watching them all come into their own and live and have good lives. Some of them even, you know, still living at home.

and have personalities and some of them, especially the younger ones, call things the way they are a lot more than us older siblings every day. Just seeing each sibling in our family exactly where they needed to be and seeing God take care of them when I didn't know if he would. just that's probably my greatest joy in life. And I really look forward to that as more of my siblings become adults. It's really weird now going home and they're all taller than me.

And that really always really hits it home for me like, whoa, you're a grown person now and you have a personality.

Joey Pontarelli (1:07:34)

Love it. Yeah, no, and it's just heartbreaking to hear that there's, you know, been so many rifts over the years and the complications with your parents. I definitely hope, and I want this for you and for everyone listening, that there may be a day, God willing, and I think God wills it, whether people cooperate is another question. That's so true. Yeah, where there can be healthier relationships between you guys and your parents and hopefully everyone.

as well and I really believe that it's possible that things can get better and improve and but at the same time like you said we really have to be honest and face reality as it is we can't pretend it's not there but I'm hopeful that one day I can get to that better spot.

Celeste (1:08:17)

Yep. And one of my siblings lives with me now and having to accept her graciousness and forgiveness has been really tough because I like being the perfect older sister and I like being able to be there for her and realizing the things, some of the things that I did in the past that negatively contributed to her, but that she's forgiven me for. Or the fact that she has grace for the fact that I moved away. And some of my siblings have said like, oh,

We didn't realize this from your perspective and giving me grace in that. I think you have to learn to listen to your sibling side of the story without being super emotionally reactive. And I think that helps so much when trying to reunify with siblings.

Joey Pontarelli (1:09:01)

So good, such good advice and I think it goes back to what you said before about like, they could have a totally different experience of your family life and of your parents. And so I think that empathy is huge, putting yourself in their shoes for sure. I want to, maybe we'll do a little bit of like a lightning round, because I know we're almost out of time here. Your relationship with God, let's talk about that for a second. So how has your relationship with God suffered because of everything you've been through?

Celeste (1:09:24)

Well, I am a Christian still. Some of my siblings have moved on from the faith, which knowing the example that they were given of Christianity, I understand. But I think it suffered because there were so many things that I was taught were religious in nature or about God or we do this because of God and it was actually because of manipulation from a controlling parent. And so it really sets you back having to weed all that out.

I know there's big feelings right now about the word deconstruction within faith, but I really had to kind of take it apart and rebuild it from the ground up and go back to scripture to understand who God actually says he is and that he's not an apathetic father figure. Or heard that if marriage is an example of Christ's love for the church, what does divorce say about Christ? That Christ is going to leave his church, that he doesn't care about his church, that his church can do something to push him away?

And I think having to defeat those subconscious beliefs about Christ that watching my parents divorce gave me, that has really been tough for my faith.

Joey Pontarelli (1:10:32)

No, can imagine. No, it equally pisses me off that people use faith or God to justify bad behavior or, like you said, manipulation. It's just like, it's so infuriating. And I get why people, you know, come to the conclusion that, I'm just going to reject God or God doesn't exist because it's just like too painful, like you said, to sift through all that. It's a hard spot to be. And gosh, that definitely gets me. But I think there's some beautiful, like you said, about rediscovering who God actually is. go ahead, sorry.

Celeste (1:11:01)

Sorry, I was just going to say that I think manipulative or abusive people are going to use whatever tools they have closest to them to gain control and sometimes the tool closest to them is religion and guilt and it's not religion's fault. I think it's definitely that person's fault. We have to put the credit there. That's my opinion on the situation.

Joey Pontarelli (1:11:20)

Yeah.

Yeah, no really well said and no, definitely I just have a heart for people like you described to you know are far from God and faith because of what they went through and definitely I get it like I get it. How have you found healing and growth? Through everything that you've been through like obviously there might be a long list, but I'm curious What are some of the things that has helped and how's it your relationship with God in a better spot, too?

Celeste (1:11:45)

Yes, it is significantly better now, mostly because, you know, I'm not worried every second of every day that I'm going to go to hell or something horrible. I think seeing Jesus for who He actually is and wants to be known as in Scripture has been super helpful for me. I reread through Exodus, which is one of the early books in the Bible, and it's where God is just initially introducing Himself to humans.

and showing who he actually is and taking care of them and seeing like this is who God is and this is how I can know him. Trying to make my faith more about actively knowing God in a very nitty-gritty daily basis has been super helpful. Instead of just trying to make a big checklist of things that I need to do or ways that I could be better. The church has been really helpful and healing for me. I am very privileged to have been able to choose my own church to go to as an adult. I found a really healthy one which doesn't have leadership that's always

suspicious or untrustworthy. And when I moved out, I knew I had to do different if I wanted a different life than what my parents had. And so I really reached out and searched for good female mentors. The lady who's been mentoring me now has been part of most of my adult life and she's incredible and has shown up for me in ways that my mother can't spiritually and emotionally. And she's just a sweet lady who's very faithful and

also can be very sassy times at times. And she's just incredible. And she grew a relationship with me. And in the space of having a healthy mother relationship, finally, I was able to accept more spiritual growth as well. And not having been able to trust my mother for the spiritual teaching that I need really created a vacuum. But this lady in my life has been able to both fill the relationship need and also

be trustworthy enough to fill a spiritual need as well. So that's been really helpful.

Joey Pontarelli (1:13:44)

I love that and mentorship, it's been so important for me and probably easily like the most healing thing, maybe aside from my relationship with God. And on that topic, I love what you said about like actually getting to know God for who He is. think there's a temptation with humans actually, like when we have people in our lives that we get to know that we hear things about people and or we learn things about them because we can look them up on social or whatever. So we're just like taking in some information, but it's very different to like sit down with the person.

and talk to them and ask them questions to get to know them. I think that's often what we do with God. It's like we learn about Him, but we never get to know the real Him. And I think what you said is really wise, that like one of the best ways you can get to know God is just reading scripture, reading the Bible. And so there's a podcast I'll recommend on that. It's called The Bible in a Year, and it's just a way to read the Bible in a year. And so it's really practical. It takes you maybe like 20 minutes a day. It's something you listen to, so you don't even have to like sit down for 20 minutes, which for a lot of people feels impossible. ⁓

But it's really beautiful. You can learn things you've never learned, even if you've been a person of faith, like you've been a Christian forever. It's wild. I feel like I've had really good formation and I'm reading this now as like a 33 year old and I'm like, wow, like I either totally forgot that or I just did not pay attention to this or that. And so I think there's a lot of good. So we'll link to that podcast if you guys want to check it out. I definitely recommend that. no, anything final you'd add about your relationship with God and then want to shift to romantic relationships.

Celeste (1:15:11)

Just the last thing that's been super helpful both in my relationship with God and with being an adult child divorce is the concept of lament within faith and I think telling God honestly what's not okay, what's going on I think is a very biblical concept you read the Psalms and I always used to skip the sad ones but now I read them and really getting into them and telling God this is not the way it's supposed to go this is not how you wanted things to be

understanding that God didn't want my parents to get divorced or be manipulative or anything any more than I did and being honest with God about the ways you want it to change and resting in Him despite it and Knowing that He's walking with you in it, even when it hasn't changed yet I think there's a big push in the church to be like, okay This is my testimony and this is how everything's fine now. This is how God worked it all for good I don't see that yet and you've got to be honest with yourself and with God with other believers about that and so

Lamenting it and just setting aside time to grieve I think has been super helpful in my spiritual walk with little things and big things like my family

Joey Pontarelli (1:16:16)

So good, I love that. And I know Brene Brown on the secular side, she talks a lot about that. If you guys are familiar with Brene Brown, psychologist, researcher, who talks a lot about shame and grief and things like that. And I think there's something like you said, so good to just being super real, because I don't think it helps anyone to pretend. So really good. All right, the last thing I wanted to talk to you about is romantic relationships. So you said dating is hard, it feels like hell, you mentioned. Why, talk me through that, why has it felt?

Celeste (1:16:45)

Yeah, I am single right now dating is really tough in this day and age to begin with but I think having the anxiety component Almost all the time I can really control and keep my anxiety managed But whenever I start dating or go out with a guy It gets triggered pretty quick and it gets back to that uncontrollable level really easily and I think that's why it feels like hell to me Maybe I was being a little overdramatic when I said that but it honestly does Yeah

Joey Pontarelli (1:17:12)

It's good writing,

Celeste (1:17:14)

And you don't know how early to share that struggle with whoever you're seeing because you don't even know if you're going to go on another date yet. I think most of the people I went to college with are married with kids or getting kids. Like, yes, it's sad to be single sometimes. Sometimes I really struggle with it. But I more struggle with the idea that I might get stuck in something that I chose because I was just lonely one day. And so, yeah, there's there's a tough balance to walk there.

Joey Pontarelli (1:17:41)

Yeah, it's a big, it's a big topic and you know, maybe we'll have to you come back another time to talk through it because it's the number one struggle for people like us and the anxiety you described. I hear it all the time. I experienced it myself and it's so interesting. Like you said, it's not like a generalized anxiety about life necessarily because we can, you know, with enough healing and growth, we can have that in check. We can learn how to like regulate our nervous system to where we're not always like,

on edge like we were talking about before. But then relationships come into the picture and there's just so much like, like you described it really well. There's just this anxiety, this worry, this uneasiness, whatever we're going to call it about love and it's hard. So I'm curious, do you feel like marriage is unattainable for you? Do feel like it's something that you can?

Celeste (1:18:23)

Do. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (1:18:26)

a lot of the time you said it feels unattainable

Celeste (1:18:28)

It feels unattainable a lot of the time, less now than it did before. Just because I have seen so many people get married now, I'm like, well, if they can get married, surely. I think if I wanted it badly enough, I could be married by now, which might sound a little vain or prideful. But I think the idea of finding somebody who's emotionally intelligent enough to deal with my family and all their ups and downs and believe me when one of my parents is being manipulative.

or being willing to set boundaries with them or understanding what I've been through. I think one person I dated, I mentioned my mom's anger issues to them and he said, like, my mom sometimes yelled at us too. And I just remember going like, you don't understand what I'm saying here. So having somebody trying to find somebody who's emotionally intelligent enough to deal with such a situation and navigate it and still being willing to live our own life, I think.

It seems impossible a lot of the time.

Joey Pontarelli (1:19:28)

No, I get it. get why I can feel that way. What else is holding you back would you say? Is there, you mentioned, you know, maybe being afraid to pick wrong, but what else?

Celeste (1:19:38)

The anxiety in the situation makes me really avoidant of close relationships and it took long enough for me to get close female relationships, let alone like close guy relationships. When all this stuff was happening with my family, it was also the time when all the IVLP and gothic stuff and big Christian leaders were coming out with big sexual sin and assault and things like that. And so that was around the same time I was going through puberty. And so just this idea of men

Like, they might act nice on the outside, but deep down, they're this way. And so, having to find guys who are trustworthy now as an adult has been really healing, but the idea of marrying somebody and trusting them to contribute even just to the housework or want to be a parent, not just a father figure, or trusting somebody with my children in the future, it seems impossible that I will reach a place with a man where I can trust him enough to

be a good father to my kids. I think that's probably the biggest fear I have with it.

Joey Pontarelli (1:20:40)

Yeah, hey, that's honest. I appreciate you sharing that. I'm going to challenge you a little bit here, okay? Okay. Because I've been through what you're going through. Yeah. And I felt the same way and I've talked with lot of people who have and I just want to say, even if marriage feels unattainable for you now, it doesn't have to feel that way always. And I think there is this aspect of it being like this hard and you actually aren't fully prepared for it, at least not yet. I know I wasn't. And it's something that I think eventually over time, you kind of grow into that.

into that role. Just like anything, you're stretched and it's like, wow, okay, now I look back a year and it's like, okay, I'm a better person, husband, father, whatever, than I was a year ago. It works the same. It's the same with our bodies. Like if we train and eat well and sleep and everything, it's like, wow, I'm a healthier person today than I am in the past. So yeah, the fears are super real and I'm not trying to wash over that by any means, but I just, for you and for anyone listening, I just want you guys to know that, yeah, those are super real struggles, barriers, emotions, and.

Celeste (1:21:40)

I was wanting to ask you, I know a big thing for kids with divorce is this fear of becoming like their parents or having marriage behaviors or parenting behaviors that you see that are like something your parents would have done or something you regret. How do you, when you do those, cause they're inevitable, how do you cope with the guilt and restore relationship with your family member after?

Joey Pontarelli (1:22:02)

Yeah. So let's say the situation of like a child, like if you get angry at your kid and you yell at them and it was just like over the top. The key is just the repair. And it sounds kind of simplistic. You hear a lot of psychologists who talk about this stuff, but like there's in every relationship, there's going to be ruptures. And the key is to repair those relationships. What so often happened in our families of origin, in our parents' families, it's like, they just never did the repair part. There was plenty of rupture to go around.

There was not a lot of repair ⁓ if any and then that was the problem and so obviously you want to avoid Doing things that are gonna harm your kids, but you're not gonna be able to do that entirely because you're human You have emotions you had a long day, you know or something really bad maybe happens I remember there was a situation where one of the kids like knocked into the other kid and then there was like a bloody nose and it was just like for some inside me like maybe really angry and so I yelled because I was just like I see this kid bleeding and I'm like, no, like I don't

I'm super protective as a dad and I felt so bad. so like immediately, you know, not immediately I needed to cool down for second. I went to the other kid, my daughter and I was like, Hey, I'm so sorry. I should not have yelled like that. Like I know that was probably scary and it made you feel this and that I'm really, really sorry. I love you so much. And yeah, so you can do that and you don't have to be perfect. You can repair and you can then have a stronger, better relationship because of it. In terms of other qualities that may be come out,

that remind you of your parents, like yeah, for some reason that is inevitable. But I think the key is then, instead of just wallowing in that or getting caught in some unhealthy cycle, it's like, okay, is there a better way to do this? If I have this tendency, can I learn something new? It's like, yeah, you totally can. And I think the most helpful thing there is look at people who are doing it right. It's like if you wanna be a professional athlete, you watch other professional athletes who are doing that sport. You don't watch the high school kid who like,

doesn't know how to dribble. You watch the pros who are so good at what they do. And so that's the key. It's like you want to model after the people who are doing it really well, otherwise you're just going to default to doing it poorly. So those are a few things that have been helpful. And then like you said before, the mentorship piece is kind of a component of that, where you can have someone who can help you kind of work through some of those maybe unhealthy tendencies that you have. And then if you're in a good spot, like with your spouse too, it's really meant to be a team situation. You can kind of call each other on.

where it's like, you know, like my wife can say to me, you hey, like, you you reacted really strongly there. You know, I think like it would be really good for you to talk with Lucy. Then I can, if I'm humble in that moment, can be like, you know, you're totally right. Let me go do that. Or, you know, I can say to her like, hey, you know, I think like this and this is happening and I see you react in this way. And so, you know, I think this would be good for us to talk about or work through. So you have to use like influence tactics and everything like that on yourself and with other people.

But I think ⁓ you don't have to go down that same path, even if you feel some sort of magnetic pull in that direction. You can do it differently. And there's plenty of people who have, and that's what gives me a lot of hope. It's like, even if I screw up and maybe have those tendencies, I can rewire it and learn from people who've done it well. Does that help?

Celeste (1:25:12)

Yeah, that's really helpful. So the key is in the repair, not just necessarily the rupture. Yeah. It's really helpful.

Joey Pontarelli (1:25:20)

And one of the tests of a healthy marriage is that repair doesn't take forever. Because you could have a marriage, and we've been through seasons like this, where it's like it may take days for you to repair, or longer even. But in a healthy marriage, think it's like, yeah, you need time to cool down, maybe it's 30 minutes, maybe it's an hour, maybe it's overnight. But then as soon as you kind of regain like the, you're regulated again, you're in that state of like calm, then you can come back to each other, and it just requires a lot of humility.

And I have a whole talk, we can link to it on building a really healthy marriage, not just from my opinion, but what researchers have to say age-old wisdom and then really beautiful couples have built. And so we'll link to that in the show notes if you guys are interested. It really concisely, within 45 minutes, essentially brain dumps all the things that you could learn by reading all these different books and all these different psychologists and just makes it really practical for you.

We've gotten a lot of good feedback, I don't mean to take my own home, but we've gotten a lot of good feedback on that talk. And so we'll link to that in the show notes if you guys wanna check that out, but that can be a really helpful roadmap. And then going back to what I was saying before, think that content can be helpful with this whole fear that we feel of like, don't wanna repeat what my parents had. And I think there's a lot of hope in it that it's like, no, you don't have to. The fear is super understandable, but my main encouragement to you and everyone listening would be like, do it scared. You don't have to do it now, and maybe now's not the time.

you know, maybe it is going to take a while to find the right person. That's okay. Should not settle for just anyone. I agree. But when the time comes and if that's something you feel called to do, then you're going to have to push through that fear and you can cause you've done it in other areas of your life and you can do it here too. So I don't mean to coach you, but I just wanted to encourage you cause I would say just like marriage and family life and especially having kids, it's just been

greatest joy of my life and I'd hate for you or anyone else to miss out on that because of these these fears and these barriers that are very real and we have to work through I and I get it I get it I've been there yeah of course yeah and I'm just I'm excited to talk with you one day to see like okay I'm in a better spot now and maybe and not another that some people aren't you know called to marriage and that's okay like it's not like the I don't want to pretend like everyone has to go down this route but

Celeste (1:27:20)

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Joey Pontarelli (1:27:36)

But yeah, I think there's a lot of joy to be found. I think if nothing else, I think the tendency I would just like caution all of us, myself included, to be wary of is like that tendency to isolate, that tendency to think that love is not worth the risk because it's hurt us in the past. And there's truth to that. Love is gonna hurt you. Your heart is gonna be broken. You know, the whole C.S. Lewis quote, I'm sure you guys have heard it. And if you wanna make sure of not getting your heart broken, then you need to like lock it away and never love anything. But the danger of that is that your heart would just become hard. And I'm not such...

preaching this to you, but just to all of us, the dangers that our hearts would become hard and unchangeable, and that's actually, in the end, think, more painful. And so, anyway, yeah, I know you know this stuff, and I was asking the specific question about what's held you back, those other things, but maybe I'll throw that final question toward you of what have you learned then when it comes to love, relationships, marriage, what gives you hope?

And what makes you think that like, okay, you know, one day I can do this too.

Celeste (1:28:36)

I think right now I like to call it a supply chain demand issue for why I'm not married yet. ⁓ There's just not a lot of men that I know in my area that are somebody who I'm willing to spend the rest of my life with in that capacity. But I think the things that give me hope in marriage are friends who have gotten married and have really good healthy marriages and their marriages don't make their life harder. They make it better. Obviously there's different challenges, but

men who are genuinely just very good people ⁓ and who I'd be willing to have these couples babysit my kids someday because I trust them and Beautiful Seeing people that I'm relieved that they found this person and I am happy for them. ⁓ I think that's been really healing. I am now at a point where I actually desire to be married which is better than where I was when I moved away from home eight years ago. So get that. All that progress. Yeah, that's where I'm at.

Joey Pontarelli (1:29:36)

love it. That's an honest answer. And speaking of honesty, I think that's one of the qualities to avoid marrying someone who puts on a front of being this good, virtuous person who then later you learn is not that way. That's what we all fear, right? Even people who don't come from broken families, but especially those of us, because that's often what happens with our parents. But I think if there's someone who's humble and they're honest, like, yeah, you know, I do have these struggles or this struggle.

then I think there's a beauty in that, that it makes it at least more likely that they would be honest about other things going forward. So just wanted to mention that. And I think that's really beautiful of that shift toward it, toward marriage and love, because I think there's, it's a journey. I ⁓ went through all that too. But I'm really excited for you to see where it leads. And on the note of finding someone, I totally get that. And that is one of the biggest problems right now I see in the dating world. It's just the right person for you is difficult to find.

We had an, our last episode was on a new platform, a new app that is making that easier. It's not just another dating app. It's like a, I guess you could call it a platform, but it's a way, it's like an experience that's like way more human than, than a lot of the other options out there. So I'll leave it at that. You guys can go back to the previous episode, ⁓ with Emily Wilson, who's SIM and listen to, ⁓ to that and hopefully, you know, make use of what they're offering to potentially meet someone who could be a good fit for you. But.

The last thing I was just gonna ask you is if you can speak honestly to your parents just about everything you've been through, what would you want to say to them? What would you want them to know?

Celeste (1:31:09)

Boy. I think for the most part I have been pretty honest with them about what I want them to know. There's a point which you can't tell them everything, but I would wish that they... I would ask that they would be able to listen to their kids a little bit better. I understand that they've gone through a lot, both of them, and suffered a lot because of the other parent, but I want them to understand that sometimes when you...

victimize yourself too much that it doesn't give space for your kids to deal with their own issues. Yeah, I think I just asked them to listen, especially to my siblings, and see what their needs are right now, and not just write them off when they do share them.

Joey Pontarelli (1:31:53)

Thank you for being here. I'm really glad we did this and yeah, you have a lot of wisdom and your story is really moving and beautiful I would say just the way that where you are now compared to where you where you were It's really beautiful to see I admire you I am want to give you the last word what final encouragement final advice would you give to? That younger you listening right now who yeah, who's going through what you went through. What would you leave them with?

Celeste (1:32:18)

I would tell them it feels really dark right now and you might not be at a place where you have anyone to share this with or are willing to share it with anybody, but it can get better. For me did. Again, your situation might not change very fast, but your emotions can. You can do little things to take a little bit more control in your life. And I know you're afraid that God's just gonna let you slide on away from him, but he's more secure of a parent than that.

and he loves you and he actually wants you even though you can't understand that yet.

Joey Pontarelli (1:32:56)

Just a reminder, Celeste confirmed that her siblings are safe. They're much older now and they're much bigger now. There's no physical harm. There's no abuse that's happening, thankfully. But just in case anyone got the wrong impression, I just wanted to put you at ease. with that, that wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember, you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said,

You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

How to Build Healthy Relationships After Growing Up in a Broken Family

7-minute read.

Growing up in a broken family changes the way you approach relationships, often in ways you don’t fully realize until later in life. Your parents might have divorced, or your home was emotionally unstable. Maybe there was ongoing dysfunction. Regardless, those experiences shape how you see trust and commitment.

Many people don’t recognize this impact right away. It usually becomes clear when you start dating or trying to build deeper relationships. You might find yourself pulling away when things get serious, overthinking small interactions, or feeling anxious about being abandoned. At the same time, you may genuinely want a strong, healthy relationship but feel unsure how to build one.

If that sounds familiar, you are not alone. This is one of the most common struggles for people from broken families. The good news is that healthy relationships after a broken family are absolutely possible. But they require awareness, intentionality, and a willingness to do things differently than what you may have seen growing up.

How Broken Families Affect Relationships

To understand how to build healthy relationships after a broken family, you first need to understand how your upbringing shaped you.

When parents divorce or a family environment is dysfunctional, a child does not just observe those dynamics. They internalize them. They form beliefs about love, trust, and commitment based on what they experienced, not what is ideal.

For example, if you grew up watching constant conflict, you may associate relationships with tension or instability. If there was emotional distance, you might struggle to open up or depend on others. If love felt conditional, you may feel like you need to earn it.

This is why relationships after parents’ divorce can feel confusing. You are trying to build something healthy without having a clear model of what that looks like.

I’ve talked to countless people who didn’t realize how much their family impacted them until they started dating. One guy shared that every time a relationship started to go well, he would subconsciously create distance. He wasn’t trying to sabotage it, but deep down, he expected it to end. That expectation came from watching his parents’ relationship fall apart.

Another person told me that she constantly felt anxious in relationships, even when nothing was wrong. Her parents’ divorce created a deep fear of abandonment, so she was always scanning for signs that things were about to go wrong.

These patterns are not random. They are learned responses.

Understanding this is important because it shifts the question from “What is wrong with me?” to “What did I learn, and how can I change it?”

Trust Issues from Dysfunctional Families

One of the biggest challenges in dating after a dysfunctional family is trust.

Trust issues from a broken family often develop because trust was either broken or never fully established in the first place. When a child sees betrayal, inconsistency, or emotional instability, it becomes difficult to believe that relationships are safe.

This can show up in different ways.

Some people become overly guarded. They struggle to open up, avoid vulnerability, and keep people at a distance. Others go in the opposite direction. They become overly dependent, seeking constant reassurance because they fear being abandoned.

Both responses come from the same root: a lack of emotional safety.

Attachment wounds in relationships are often formed in childhood. If your early experiences taught you that love is unpredictable or unsafe, your brain adapts to protect you. That protection might look like control, avoidance, or anxiety.

For example, someone with trust issues might overanalyze text messages, assume the worst in ambiguous situations, or feel uneasy when things are going well. It can feel like you are waiting for something to go wrong.

I remember someone telling me, “When things are calm, I get more anxious, not less.” That sounds counterintuitive, but it makes sense if chaos was your normal. Stability can feel unfamiliar, even uncomfortable.

This is where many people get stuck. They assume these patterns are permanent or that they simply aren’t good at relationships.

But trust is not fixed. It can be rebuilt.

How Does a Broken Family Affect Dating?

If you’ve ever wondered how a broken family affects dating, the answer is both practical and emotional.

On a practical level, you may not have learned key relationship skills. You might not know how to communicate effectively, set boundaries, or resolve conflict in a healthy way.

On an emotional level, your internal experience can make dating feel complicated. You may carry fear, insecurity, or confusion into relationships, even when the other person is healthy.

This combination often leads to patterns like:

• Choosing partners who reflect familiar dysfunction

• Avoiding commitment because it feels risky

• Becoming overly attached too quickly

• Struggling to communicate needs clearly

• Reacting strongly to perceived rejection
  

These patterns are not signs that you are incapable of a healthy relationship. They are signs that you are operating from past experiences rather than present reality.

Children of divorce often ask, “How do I have healthy relationships if I didn’t grow up seeing one?”

The answer is that you learn.

You learn by observing healthy examples, by practicing new behaviors, and by becoming aware of your own patterns. It is not automatic, but it is very possible.

How to Build Healthy Relationships

Building healthy relationships after a broken family is not about becoming perfect. It is about becoming intentional.

The goal is to replace what you did not learn with what you need now.

1. Build Self-Awareness

The first step is understanding your patterns. Pay attention to how you react in relationships. Do you withdraw when things get serious? Do you become anxious when communication slows down? Do you struggle to trust even when someone is consistent?These reactions often point back to your upbringing.

When you can name the pattern, you can begin to change it.

2. Learn What Healthy Looks Like

If you did not grow up seeing a healthy relationship, you need to intentionally expose yourself to one.

This could come through mentors, strong couples, counseling, or even content that teaches relationship skills. The key is to develop a clear picture of what you are aiming for.

Healthy relationships are marked by:

• Consistent communication

• Mutual respect

• Emotional safety

• Clear boundaries

• Shared values

Without this clarity, it is easy to normalize unhealthy behavior or miss red flags.

3. Focus on Trust Building

Trust building is essential when you’ve experienced consistent violations of trust from your broken family. Instead of expecting instant trust, focus on building it gradually. Pay attention to consistency over time. Look for actions that match words. At the same time, work on being trustworthy yourself. Follow through on commitments, communicate honestly, and show up consistently. Trust grows through repeated experiences of reliability.

4. Develop Communication Skills

Communication skills are one of the most practical ways to improve relationships. Many people from dysfunctional families either avoid conflict or handle it poorly because they never saw it done well.

Learning to communicate means:

• Expressing your thoughts clearly

• Sharing your feelings without attacking

• Listening without becoming defensive

• Addressing issues early instead of letting them build

This takes practice, but it is one of the most impactful skills you can develop.

5. Create Emotional Safety

Emotional safety is the foundation of a healthy relationship. This means both people feel safe to be honest, vulnerable, and themselves without fear of rejection or punishment. If you grew up in a broken family, emotional safety may feel unfamiliar. You might expect criticism, withdrawal, or conflict.

Part of building a healthy relationship is learning to both create and recognize emotional safety. This includes:

• Responding calmly instead of reactively

• Respecting each other’s emotions

• Avoiding manipulation or control

• Encouraging openness
  

6. Establish Relationship Boundaries

Relationship boundaries are often unclear for people from broken families. You might struggle to say no, tolerate unhealthy behavior, or feel responsible for other people’s emotions. Healthy boundaries define what is acceptable and what is not. They protect your well-being and create clarity in the relationship.

Examples include:

• Communicating your needs and limits

• Not tolerating disrespect

• Taking responsibility for your own emotions, not your partner’s

• Allowing space for individuality
  
  Boundaries are not about pushing people away. They are about creating a healthy structure for connection.

7. Move Toward Secure Attachment

Secure attachment is the goal in healthy relationships. This means you are able to trust, connect, and remain stable even when challenges arise. If you have attachment wounds from past experiences, moving toward secure attachment takes time. It involves recognizing your triggers, regulating your emotions, and choosing healthier responses. Over time, your nervous system begins to adapt to stability instead of chaos.

How Do I Build Healthy Relationships After Family Dysfunction?

This is one of the most common questions people ask. The answer is not a single step, but  a process. You build healthy relationships after family dysfunction by:

• Understanding how your past shaped you

• Identifying and changing unhealthy patterns

• Learning and practicing new relationship skills

• Surrounding yourself with healthy examples

• Choosing growth over comfort
  

It is not always easy. There will be moments where old patterns resurface. But progress comes from consistency, not perfection.

You Can Break the Cycle

Growing up in a broken family does not mean you are destined to repeat the same patterns. In fact, many people who do the work go on to build stronger, healthier relationships than they ever experienced growing up. The key difference is awareness. You are not blindly following what you saw. You are choosing something different. Healthy relationships after a broken family are not only possible;  they are achievable with the right mindset, tools, and effort. And in many ways, your experience gives you an advantage. You understand what doesn’t work. Now you have the opportunity to build what does.

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Low Confidence? Here’s How to Build It | Dr. Nicole Gabana Chiesa: #171

If you grew up in a broken or divorced family, struggling with confidence isn’t random.

Research has consistently shown that children of divorce are more likely to experience lower self-esteem, higher anxiety, and greater insecurity in relationships. When love feels unstable or conditional early on, it shapes how you handle pressure later in life.

You might:

• Overthink conversations

• Freeze in high-pressure moments

• Feel like you have to perform to be loved

• Or believe everyone else is just naturally more confident

In this episode, licensed psychologist and Certified Mental Performance Consultant Dr. Nicole Gabana Chiesa breaks down what confidence actually is — and why it’s not personality.

We explore:

• The subtle belief that makes confidence collapse when you fail

• What’s happening in your brain when anxiety spikes

• Why hyper-focusing on yourself increases insecurity

• How to stop just listening to your thoughts — and start talking back

• And why confidence is built through imperfect reps, not feelings

If your family didn’t model emotional stability, healthy conflict, or secure love… this episode gives you a roadmap.

Confidence isn’t something you’re born with. It’s something you build. And you can build it.

UPDATE: Dr. Nicole now has PSYPACT approval, so she can now virtually serve clients in numerous states. 

Visit Dr. Nicole’s Website

Book a FREE Consult: (904) 624-1331 or paxperform@gmail.com

Get the Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide, The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:47)

Welcome to the Resort Podcast, I'm Joey Ponnarelli. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. If you grew up in a divorced or broken family, struggling with confidence is not random. Research consistently shows that children of divorce are more likely to experience lower self-esteem, higher anxiety, and greater insecurity in relationships.

Basically when love feels unstable or conditional early on, it doesn't just hurt you in the moment, it trains your nervous system and it shapes how you handle pressure later in life where confidence is essential. You might overthink everything you say, conversations, feel like you have to perform and be perfect in order to be loved, and assume that everyone else got the confidence gene and you didn't. But what if that's not true? What if confidence isn't personality, it's actually a belief that you have what it takes

based on proof. In this episode, we unpack what confidence actually is and why most of us have been building it the wrong way. We explore why emotional regulation under pressure matters more than hyping yourself up. We talk about the subtle belief that quietly makes your confidence collapse when you fail. My guest shares how to stop just listening to your thoughts and start talking back to them. I love that piece of advice. And why hyper-focusing on yourself actually kills confidence and why confidence doesn't come.

Before action, it comes after enough imperfect reps done scared. My guest today is Dr. Nicole Gabbana, a sports psychologist, certified mental performance consultant, and former director of sports psychology at the University of Massachusetts. She's worked with division one athletes at schools like Harvard, Ohio State, Indiana, and Florida State, and is listed in the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee Mental Health Registry. She specializes in helping high performers stay steady.

under pressure, when pressure hits, when the moment gets big and nerves spike. And what she teaches athletes about performing under pressure applies directly to our lives, to dating, to work, relationships, and even healing from a broken family. She doesn't just talk about confidence as some abstract idea, she actually trains it. And so if you've ever asked yourself, why do I choke? Why do I overthink every little thing? Why does everyone else seem so much more confident than me? Or why do I feel like I have to earn love? This episode is for you. Confidence is not magic.

and it's not personality, it's built and you can build it. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast and so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this, just listen with an open mind, even if you skip the God part, you're still gonna get a lot out of this episode.

other things as well. And with that, here's a conversation.

Dr. Nicole, so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. One of the huge struggles that my audience faces is feeling unconfident, low self-esteem, feeling insecure, whatever word we put on it. And not just in sports, of course, I know it's your background, but really in life, work, dating, friendships. In this interview, I really would love your best advice for how to build confidence, how to go from maybe being unconfident or insecure or low self-esteem to having a good...

Dr. Nicole Gabana (03:31)

Thanks for having me, Joey.

Joey Pontarelli (03:58)

good confidence where you can do the things that you need to do that you want to do. But before we get into all the details of that, which I'm really excited for, I was curious, like, how do you define confidence? Like, let's give people an idea of maybe what we're talking about.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (04:09)

I think confidence is generally the way that we regard ourselves. So the belief in my abilities, the belief in my character, my capability, and it's closely related to self-efficacy. So self-efficacy is the belief that I can do something, that I have the ability to do something or the power to do something. So I think that ties into self-confidence of just my belief in my ability to

achieve a certain goal or certain, to complete a certain task.

Joey Pontarelli (04:41)

Okay, that makes a ton of sense. And one of the things I was thinking of is it's a continuum. Like it's not like you're confident or you're not confident. It's more about like how confident are you and perhaps how confident are you in a given scenario in a situation? Like it's, you know, I might have very different confidence of like, you know, making a checking the oil on my car versus like changing the oil. And I know that's more related to like task confidence, but, but would you say that's true that it kind of varies depending on like the situation you're in and that it is a continuum?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (05:11)

Yes, absolutely. as I'm trying to define confidence, even though you gave me a heads up about this question, I'm realizing I don't feel so confident in my ability to define it. But I think it has ties to this concept of identity, how we view ourselves, how we define ourselves. So I think there's an element of identity and then there's an element of action, right? How confident am I to do something specific, like you're saying?

to change the oil to perform the sports task to achieve this goal. I think there's an internal dimension of confidence of how we feel about ourselves. And then there's what is my belief about what I can do with who I am and my skill set.

Joey Pontarelli (05:56)

That's really helpful. Okay, yeah. I remember growing up, especially like I, there were certain things I felt really confident about, know, especially like sports related things. I loved playing sports with my brothers and I played baseball a lot, we football and hockey players and all of that. But then if you threw me in like a social environment, was a very different story in some cases. And thankfully, you know, I was able to grow there. But yeah, I could totally see the difference of like, what are, if we're calling it, yeah, like task confidence or whatever the right term would be versus maybe like you said, an identity or like a personal confidence.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (06:25)

Yeah, it is a continuum and I think there are many factors that influence your level of confidence in something. You know, some of those might be past experiences, like successful experiences you've had, mastery experiences. So with the sport example, if you've had successful performances in the past, you're more likely to be confident with your performance in the future. If you've watched somebody doing something well and you can have a vicarious experience of

watching someone perform well, then that might make you feel more confident in mirroring that or practicing it. Also, the feedback we get affects our confidence. So if I'm getting positive or encouraging feedback from supportive others, then that increases my confidence that I will be able to do something. Also, if we imagine ourselves doing it, if we kind of use imagery or mental rehearsal to picture ourselves doing something.

That can increase our confidence. And lastly, our ability to regulate our physical and emotional states when we're working toward a goal or performing or doing something. The ability to do that, to regulate our emotions, to regulate the results and our response to those results, that can also affect our degree of confidence in doing something.

Joey Pontarelli (07:44)

So good. So there's a lot at play and it totally makes sense. And as you're saying all that, the thing that comes to mind for my audience, for those of us who come from broken families, is I think the biggest area where we don't feel confident is in relationships. And it's interesting to compare that to an athletic environment like in sports, how they've actually seen relationships play out so poorly. Like you were saying, if you watch the pros do their thing,

and you watch, maybe amateur too, I think it's very different and you can learn a lot from the pros. I remember one of my coaches always encouraging us to watch the pros, watch the pros, watch the pros, you'll just learn from their example. But in these really broken families, the relational example that they're seeing, the marriage that they're seeing is really broken and so that is their training in love and then they go out and they try to build their own relationships and they end up being often very unhealthy. Do you see the parallel there?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (08:36)

Yeah, and we are shaped so much by those early experiences, both by ⁓ what we experience directly. So like how someone is relating to us, the way that they're talking with us, the way that they're demonstrating love or lack of love, and also by what we observe. So the way that we see our parents communicate, the lack of communication, the love that we observe, or how relationships are functioning around us.

teaches us a lot about where we fit in relation to others and how relationships occur between two people. And so a lot of it is, as we get older, as you know, is kind of unlearning some of those unhealthy behaviors that we might have experienced or observed, and then learning ones that are more ordered or more healthy, more of God's design, rather than broken or wounded interactions and relationships.

Joey Pontarelli (09:34)

I want to circle back to this in a little bit, this whole idea of relational confidence. I think this is really good, but I wanted to welcome your dog to the show if you're watching on video. See, a five month old pup, which is awesome. I love it.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (09:47)

fit on my lap. So she just puts her front two paws up and she just kind of hangs out there. So

Joey Pontarelli (09:52)

I love it. So good. So good. She's, she's adorable. Um, what do you think maybe people, what are maybe some misconceptions or unhealthy like beliefs when it comes to confidence?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (10:02)

I think one of the biggest ones I see as a sports psychologist and also as just ⁓ a Christian psychologist is this belief or vow that I need to perform for love. And performing, it can be sports, it can be school, academics, work, professional life. It could even be in the spiritual life, in our relationships, you know, that I have to maintain a certain level of performance to be loved.

or to be accepted or to be worthy. And I think that whenever we're chasing our worth or our value or our identity in something other than the core, is unconditional love of God that we're created to be loved, and before we even do anything, we are loved. If we don't have an anchor in that reality and that experience, then it makes it very hard

to feel confident in who we are, because we're constantly chasing that validation and chasing that justification of, I'm worthy, I'm valued, I'm good enough in our performance in a variety of areas.

Joey Pontarelli (11:13)

So good, and I'm excited to get deeper into that too, because I think that's huge. think, especially as a man, I can only speak as a man, I think I have that tendency of thinking that, my value, my worth comes from what I can build or what I can do. And so I think I definitely could see how you would not feel very confident if you base all of your worth on your ability to perform or make money or be good at a sport or.

you accomplishes of that and then you don't do that or you for some reason you're thrown off that then you would feel like I have nothing to offer it worries me I know people who so much of their value the way that the value that they feel comes from their job it's like that is their life it's what they focus on it's the thing that they're really proud of which is great but man if they ever stop working I've seen this play out where they stop working or they lose their job

and they're crushed and it's almost like they just don't know who they are.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (12:08)

I see that with athletes all the time, both in when they're in their sport experience and then, you know, if they retire, if they have a career ending injury, something happens that that changes their ability to perform, then all of a sudden, their their identity is totally tied up in their performance or their athletic identity, we call it. And once that is threatened or they experience a loss in that dimension, it totally shakes them as a person.

And I think that's a common area is like our work, family life, our life accomplishments. A lot of those markers can be sources of that, we're putting maybe too much of our identity into those areas and not having things ordered as they should be. And it's not to say that we shouldn't care about our performance, our work, our sport experience or our relationships. It's just to know that I need to keep it in the

the bigger perspective that no matter what happens that I'm still a child of God and I'm still loved by the Father and that will be a constant reality that I can't earn, I don't have to earn.

Joey Pontarelli (13:18)

that yeah and I like what you said how it is a part of your identity all those things you mentioned but it's only a part that doesn't make the whole and it's certainly not the foundation I think that's like you were saying where we often get it wrong we make some aspect like our job or career whatever the foundation of our identity and then when that cracks or falls apart then we're in trouble so I'm curious like is it possible to avoid putting yourself in a situation where you yeah make your identity so dependent on like what you can do and and what's the solution to avoiding that

Dr. Nicole Gabana (13:47)

That's a big question and a great one. And I think naturally as human beings, we all have that tendency to idolize, which is biblical. And I think putting too much of our identity in any one area comes from that temptation or that sin of putting something above God, worshiping something above God. So if we are regarding our successes in work,

as more defining in terms of our worth than who God says I am as His child, then I'm going to experience dysfunction. I'm going to experience unrest in that area. If I'm putting my bank account and securing my bank account above my security in God and His divine providence, I'm going to have things out of order. If I'm putting it in my youth or my appearance or my sports performance or whatever it is,

then I'm idolizing this thing that usually the world says is the most important thing or one of the most important things that gives you glory in a worldly sense. And God is saying, all of these things are passing, they're all temporary. They can help you get to heaven, they're designed for our good, they're designed for us to have an abundance of life, but they're not designed to be in that number one spot on a pedestal before God.

Joey Pontarelli (15:10)

So it sounds like what I'm hearing you say is like, there's this aspect of like formation or knowledge that we need. They're like, no, like this isn't the thing that defines you, your child of God, your son, your daughter of God, that being at the core. I'm curious if someone's listening to this is like, yeah, well, I know that, or I get that to some degree, but I maybe just don't like feel that at my core. Like I don't, like how do I make that shift from just like having the head knowledge and really like kind of living from that place?

where if I went through a career ending sports injury or lost my job or my dating relationship ended, I would be okay. It obviously would hurt, but I'd be okay because I'm not putting all my worth in that. How do I make that switch? All the easy questions today.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (15:53)

It's so challenging because we very rarely see that modeled by the adults around us, whether we're young and growing up as a child or even in the world around us. And I think that's why environment is so important. But also, like you said, there's a degree of formation there that, you know, it's who you're surrounded by greatly affects your own mindset. And so if you grew up with a parent saying,

You know, putting a ton of pressure on you to perform well in sports or even maybe they didn't do it explicitly, but you knew that they were kind of vicariously living out their own dreams through your sport experience. Or, you know, you grew up in an environment where you had a parent that was very insecure about themselves, whether it's their appearance, whether it's their ability to provide, whether you had a parent that was addicted to some, something that when we don't see.

those priorities modeled in ⁓ a rightly ordered way or a healthy way, it makes it very difficult for us to kind of change our hardwiring to learn that this really is the most important thing, that our relationship with God and our identity in Him is actually the deepest sense of who we are. And I think one way to go to begin to try to understand that and to plant seeds of belief, because it does take time, it's not like,

You know, we can expect ourselves to wake up and be like, I 100 % buy into all of this and all my self-confidence issues are fixed. Right. But just to think about the fact that we were created out of nothing before our parents even knew that we existed, you know, within our mother's womb, God created us. He breathed life into us and he intended us for, for us to be here. So even, even before anything of human origin,

God put that spark of life into our soul and wanted us here. So if we go back to the very beginning of our existence, it came from God. And if we go to the very end of our existence, of our end of life and what happens after we die, that we will meet God and that we'll see Him as He is and have a full understanding of our human experience and our life and be presented with an account of our life.

If we go to the beginning and the end, becomes very clear that everything in the middle is secondary because it should be a means to the end and not an end in itself. so thinking about, I know it sounds kind of morbid, but thinking about, you know, what happens after this life? What does it all mean? What does it all matter? You know, what does it matter if I'm all state?

or if I win the national championship, or if I achieve all of these things intellectually, athletically, professionally, even with my family and maybe some of the expectations I place on my relationships, what does that all mean if I haven't fostered a relationship with God the Creator, the one that I will face and that has eternity in His hands? That all being said, I think just beginning to foster a relationship with God through prayer,

by having conversation with Him in prayer. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. It doesn't have to be anything advanced, but just by acknowledging His presence, acknowledging that He created us and that He loves us, and then asking Him to reveal Himself so that we can come to a deeper understanding of who He is, I think is a great place to start. Because knowing who He is and reading His Word and understanding who we are,

will lead us to have a more healthy sense of confidence and put all those things in right order.

Joey Pontarelli (19:45)

Okay, real talk, if you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people and it was really helpful for me personally. In the guide, he breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make, like under eating.

overstressing or focusing too much on the scale and it gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use that you can implement today. And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never going to get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally. Love that. And I love the whole idea that you said that we can't do this alone. Like we need to be in a community of people like in relationships, whether that's mental relationships or friends or whatever it looks like who can really model this for us so that we can like,

you know, the whole saying of like way more is caught than taught. It's not something we really just study in a book, but we can see someone living it out. And when you do like, I've definitely been around people where it's like, no, they, their value does not come from their work. Their value does not come from money they make or, you know, how fit they are, how good looking they are, like all the things he went through. And you can just tell a difference. And maybe if you spend around time around something like that, you'll kind of learn, okay, maybe this is how I can do it too. But I do think there's this kind of bedrock foundational.

Knowledge like you said formation. That's like, okay, you're not made for just Performance like you're made to be loved and you stripped of all that is so you're so valuable

Dr. Nicole Gabana (21:15)

Yeah. And the ironic piece is that we see this in sport performance a lot is that once you can detach yourself from, know, your worth and confidence being totally dependent on the outcome, we actually end up performing better. You know, when we can let go and take off some of that pressure that, you know, the outcome will define me and I am how I perform.

We take off that pressure, we actually enter into a sense of freedom that the outcome of this performance, whatever it is, whether it's sports, whether it's professional, whether it's a relationship, that the outcome of that does not define me. So then, you know, I can exhale, can relax and know that I'm still going to be okay. And then we actually are more relaxed and loose and we're able to be more present in the moment and we're able to participate in the process.

because our attention is not so focused on the outcome, ⁓ which actually impedes performance.

Joey Pontarelli (22:18)

I'm curious, when did you first learn that and maybe when did you see that play out where you, if you don't put all of your value in your performance, you actually can perform better? I'm curious where that lesson came from. It's fascinating.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (22:28)

Yeah, I think just in my studies of sports psychology, you know, my education and then my experience as a sports psychologist working with a lot of athletes that were dealing with performance anxiety with pressure. I've had my own personal experiences of that, you know, from an early age, but then especially in my athletic career as a rower, we would have to do these rowing tests on the ergometers. And I would get so in my head about

you're staring at a screen and you're seeing the output of your power and your time, projected time. And so you're racing against a clock and physically exerting yourself as much as you possibly can and having to process the pain, the physical pain that comes with that. And you're also having to calculate and look at a screen and see these very real time numbers. And then you start, you might start hyperventilating and breathing more heavily.

even though physically you're breathing as much as you can. it's a very, for me, was a very anxiety provoking experience. When I got on the water and I didn't see the numbers, it was like, I could just pull as hard as I possibly could and be in the rhythm of my teammates in the boat and enjoy, you know, being on the water and the movement of the boat as we were rowing and just be giving it my all and like going all out and.

My power was so much greater when I wasn't thinking about the numbers all the time and when I didn't have that in my face. ⁓ but it was something that I had to cope with because inevitably seeing the numbers was something I had to deal with in my sport experience. There's things we have to do to test as being part of a team. So it was a constant struggle for me. ⁓ yeah. And that's something that I see a lot of athletes, regardless of sport time, there's different ways that performance pressure shows up for athletes.

Joey Pontarelli (24:23)

Okay,

yeah, so to be that cool, calm, collected athlete is hard. I remember hearing Jocko Willink, the Navy SEAL, who talks about leadership saying that that was like one of the qualities that they would look for and try to train in their like Navy SEALs in the middle of combat. And one of the ways it's played out, it's so fascinating, was literally

Nicole, they're in the middle of war. There's bullets flying everywhere. They would get on the radio. You see this in movies and you think everyone's yelling into the radios and things are going crazy. And they would get on the radios as little as they needed, or as little as they could, by the way. They weren't talking more than they needed to. But they'd get on the radios and they'd be like, hey, I need an airstrike to this location. And as calm and as collected as you can be. And I think there's something in that lesson. You can learn that,

even in like the most hellish of scenarios like war to have that clear headed, but it obviously takes practice. And I'm sure the modeling is like another thing where if you're around people who do that, you can kind of pick up on it. But was there like one hack or thing that you learned? Like were you able to improve on that when you, I you said when you're on the water is a different story, but was there anything that you learned? Were you able to transform into being a little bit more cool comp collected and being able to perform better because of that?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (25:38)

So ⁓ I had a mentor of mine recently tell me that a lot of this both relationally but also in sports performance, it comes down to regulation. How we're regulating our emotions and our physiological state and that is one of the factors that contributes to confidence. But I see this in sports and I also see this in my own experience of relationships that

it can be very challenging to regulate our emotional responses and our physiological responses. And so when I'm having a conversation or an argument in a relationship, you how am I able to regulate my own internal emotional experience? And how does that impact that performance, if you will, or outcome of how I'm communicating with the other person in front of me? Am I...

able to manage my own emotional state, my own internal experience so that I can communicate in a way that is not coming from a place of defensiveness out of self-protection, or it's not coming out of a, you know, totally losing my cool and yelling or saying something that I don't mean in the moment because I'm so triggered or my emotions are so activated.

that I can't think clearly as I would if I wasn't emotionally activated. So a lot of times things like fear, anxiety, fear of abandonment, rejection, those things will trigger an emotional experience. A lot of times there's connections to past relational experiences we've had, whether traumatic or not, or just ways that we've learned to relate to people that are close to us that can also have an impact on, you know, or almost

Repeat we have we have a repeat experience that we're playing out a pattern that we may not even know we're doing but until we take a step back and see You know, am I even able to regulate which most of us struggle with? That can give us a lot of insight of of where to go when we're having difficulty experiencing the anxiety in those situations

Joey Pontarelli (27:52)

That's fascinating. This whole idea of like regulation being like a core piece of confidence and being able to like perform all that's really fascinating. I remember there's one therapist, one of therapists I worked with in the past. He told me that they apparently did a study on like NFL players and I don't exactly know the details of the study, but the outcome was that when they were emotional, I think, especially when they were angry, they were able to measure that their IQ dropped by about 30 points.

So for anyone listening, if you're like an average IQ of like 100, that puts you in the 70 range and that in his words, he said that's a range of like mental retardation. And so you're trying to like maybe resolve a conflict with your spouse or boyfriend, girlfriend, or, you know, trying to perform on the sports field or work or, whatever the scenario is. And you're literally on the level of your brain, you're disabled because at least what he was sharing and feel free to push it back and says, you're, you know, you're,

the dysregulation like causes you to not be able to be your best.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (28:49)

Absolutely. Yeah. And we see this in, I was reading about this recently, you know, in cases of trauma and what traumatic experiences do to our brain. And so there's a high activation of our limbic system, which is the emotional center of our brain. So when, when that is highly activated, it kind of shuts down the activity of our, prefrontal cortex, which is like the executive functioning. And so that

tracks with what you're saying about the IQ dropping. You know, so when we're angry, that limbic system is highly activated, the amygdala, it's more of a primal area of our brain that is having, you know, an instant emotional experience, but we're not necessarily using that high level of functioning, executive functioning, and part of our brain. And so in DBT, which is a type of therapy, they talk about having a wise mind where you're having

If you think of a Venn diagram of our emotional brain and our rational brain, they put wise mind in that middle area of the Venn diagram where we need to have, you know, we need to keep our emotions in our experience because they're useful. They tell us something, they're meaningful. We don't want to shut off our emotional experience altogether, but sometimes we do because of trauma or because of experiences in the past where we've been in a vulnerable state.

and those emotions were not helpful to us or they were too overwhelming to us. In the case of the Navy SEAL, that is not the time or place for emotional experiences. So I would say it's dependent on the task too, that if the task is requiring precision and a quick reaction time, there's very like executive functions that need to be firing to execute this task well.

which is a lot of sports as well, not on that same level as military tasks or executions, but there's a level of I need to perform this task well without getting my emotions, having them pull me away from what I need to be doing cognitively or physically in this moment. So it's more of a time and a place of a win, you know, how much of do I need my focus versus how much do I need my emotions in this moment? And

All the while we're just living our human experience and we're not thinking about it that much. And that's why having someone where you can process this, that's why therapy could be so useful, that's why mental skills training can be useful because we have a place to sit down and say, how can I look at my reactions and kind of understand what's going on within me in this moment?

Joey Pontarelli (31:36)

So that you can retrain it. That's so good.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (31:38)

So that you can see, you know, how much is this helping me or hurting me when I'm trying to do X, Y, and Z, when I'm trying to have a conversation with my spouse, when I'm trying to, you know, play my best on the court, even though I made a mistake in the last quarter. How can I keep my focus on this military task when stuff is going on at home? Like I need to also know how to compartmentalize at times, but then not just to leave it there.

I need to come back and attend to it at an appropriate time.

Joey Pontarelli (32:12)

Just to summarize for everyone again, we're talking about how do we become more confident. Nicole is basically saying that one of the skills we need is emotional regulation. When we get really anxious or we feel really depressed or sad, when we go kind up and down on that scale, getting ourselves back into that calm, collected, cool spot that we're talking about, that's really key. It's fascinating that we're tying those two things together. makes a lot of sense. I want to share an embarrassing story, since you were so vulnerable, about rowing.

But before I do that, just like where my confidence, the time when my confidence really faltered and kind of what I learned from it. But before we get to that, I wanna say in this idea of emotional regulation and how that relates to confidence, what would you say are the best tips, the most practical tips that someone can take away when it comes to, in a moment where...

maybe they do feel the dysregulation, maybe they get super nervous, they get the performance anxiety, whatever environment, whether it's for a job interview or a first date or maybe a hard conversation that they need to have, and their body's kind of freaking out, right? We've all been in these scenarios, like, yeah, talk me through that, like, what do they do in that moment?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (33:13)

Yes, I think the first step is just to be aware of it because sometimes it happens to us and we have no consciousness whatsoever of what's going on. So the first step we always work on with athletes is just, you know, can I catch myself in the moment and just be aware of what's happening? Once we're aware of it, it's really important that we just observe it without jumping on the judgment bandwagon with ourselves. So

Often what we do is once we're aware of the jitters or the anxiety or the nervousness, we start judging ourselves for it. And I can't believe you're so nervous. I can't believe that, you know, this is bothering you so much. And we start beating ourselves up for the reaction or experience that we're having. But chances are there's a reason for that reaction. And so, you know, that's something that can be unpacked over time.

But if we judge ourselves for the reaction, it's not going to make the reaction go away. And it's usually not very useful or helpful in the moment. So once we acknowledge and we have that awareness, we have to accept this is the reality that I'm working with. And then accepting that allows us to move forward with some skills and tools like breathing for regulation to understand that.

Butterflies are a normal experience for most people who are getting up to give a speech or going out to play a game or a musical performance or even maybe it's having a tough conversation with someone. It's normal to feel some anxiety because you care. When something's important to you, it naturally brings up fears of what could go wrong and ⁓ hopes for what you want to happen.

So just knowing that it's normal to experience some of that activation because you care about this thing. Then it comes to surrendering, you know, and being like, okay, God, I am putting this in your hand, I'm in your hands, I'm entrusting this to you. I am praying for the trust that you're gonna take care of it no matter what happens and that you're a good father and that I'm yours and you're gonna be there no matter what the outcome is. And so I'm gonna give it to you.

all the anxiety, all the worries, the fears, the hopes too, and it's in your hands now. And I'm gonna do the best that I can with the skills and talents you've given me. ⁓ Another aspect of anxiety and confidence is our preparation. So the more that we can be physically and mentally prepared for whatever the thing is, the more confident we're going to feel by going into the task. It doesn't mean that it's gonna eliminate anxiety.

But if I know that I've been training for this, I know that I've been preparing for this, then that's going to help my level of confidence when it comes time for that moment to perform or to have that conversation or whatever it is. So doing some reflection, doing some journaling, getting some input from trusted others who are supportive, who are positive and encouraging, that can all be part of the emotional or spiritual preparation too.

Joey Pontarelli (36:15)

But I love the idea of like just the awareness as the starting point. think like you said, it's easy to maybe skip over that. ⁓ but yeah, I totally agree. Like we can be experiencing feelings or things in our body that like we don't quite put words to, we're not quite aware of. And once you do at least say, yeah, this is going on, then you can move to that acceptance, like you said, and then, you know, move through the other steps as well. And I love the, yeah, the ideas you had. And I think, like you said, the expectations so huge. I, you know, I do a lot of speaking with what I do and

Obviously early on it was terrifying. And still my body is like, this is something big you're doing. You're getting up in front of people, it's a vulnerable, bold thing to do. And I know you do this as well. So what I try to remind myself of in that situation is my body's actually doing what it's supposed to do. It's preparing for something big and that's normal. And so I actually remind myself, I have a whole checklist I work through when I give a talk. The talk I've given at this point is to about 2,000 people.

And that one was scary, but I worked through the checklist and I reminded myself, yeah, I'm gonna feel this, I'm gonna feel that, I'm gonna feel that, that's all normal, it's part of the process. And when I went through that, once I got up there, I actually didn't feel nervous. And the preparation piece, which I'll maybe get into a little bit, was another thing as well. So I totally, I'm tracking with you and it definitely has worked for me and hopefully can work for everyone listening too.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (37:34)

Absolutely. And something else that helps me, there's a couple others that are coming to mind as you're sharing your experiences, you know, getting a good night's sleep, minimizing or eliminating caffeine in the morning if you have a speaking event. But even for me, like getting on this podcast with you, I've done podcasts before, you know, and it's like you asked me that question of defining confidence and I'm like,

Everything that I was preparing just totally left my brain. And so I think having a sense of like, ⁓ humanness and humility and sense of humor, you know, and just being able to, again, be human and understand that we're often striving for a level of perfection that doesn't exist. And that doesn't need to exist that people actually relate when you can be a little transparent or open with your experience that.

Because you're not setting this expectation that everyone else needs to be perfect either. So the people that I've felt most comforted by or that I admire are ones that can also share their flaws and their faults and that are humble in that, that don't put on this false sense of perfection or false sense of strength that, you know, they have it all figured out. I think that's where like the self-reliance piece comes in.

that's not so healthy.

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to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restoredministry.com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes. agree. And one of the, I heard someone say once, like the best, it was probably the best advice on like public speaking I've ever heard. And they told the person who was about to go on stage, like make a mistake. And then so I tell myself that, and I've told other people that are like getting up in front of people like,

Dr. Nicole Gabana (40:10)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (40:16)

hey, good luck, make a mistake. like, because it takes a little bit of the pressure off of like, yeah, you know, don't need to be flawless and perfect and people are still going to be helped in that environment. But no, I think it applies in every other environment too. if you're going on a first date and make a mistake, if you're going, doing a job interview, make a mistake. If you're having a difficult conversations, like make a mistake, like you're not going to get through it perfectly. It's, okay to be a little bit flawed, but yeah, curiously, any further thoughts on that?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (40:41)

I think it makes you more relatable and it creates a space for other people to be human as well. So like with the first date example, I'm not saying that you need to like spill everything and overshare, right? Like that can be a little cringy too. So we need to have a healthy sense of like self-disclosure and boundaries. But you know, just to be able to put something out there and be like, I'm actually feeling a little nervous right now. You know, I was really excited to meet you and it can be an open door for someone to be like,

yeah, I was feeling that too. Or in other examples too, it just creates a space for other people to be vulnerable and then for them to there and feel accepted and for them to take some of the pressure off. Like, okay, I'm not the only one. A lot of times we feel like we're the only one. We're alone. I think of the classic example of like going around the room in a circle, doing introductions. Like to this day, I hate it.

I've done it with students. I've been on the other end of it so many times and I still get this like my heart starts fluttering and I'm just like, like I hate this feeling. And one of the other tips that I've learned is that when you really try to focus on what other people are sharing in their introductions, if you really try to keep your focus and attention on the other person and truly listen to what they're saying, it will decrease your own anxiety.

And that is because we're not staying in the self-focus, we're staying in the other focus. A lot of times, everybody's going around the circle and they're sharing what they're, and we don't even hear it because we're like, what am I gonna say? What's my unknown fact that has to be funny and has to sound a certain way? And you're all stressed out about what you're gonna say rather than being attuned to what other people are sharing. And I think I tell my athletes this too, like if you're sitting on the bench,

and you're worried about how you're gonna perform when you go in the game, pick a player in your position or even pick an opposing player, watch what they're doing and mentally rehearse how you're gonna respond to this. Try to put yourself in the game and focus on them, focus on what they're doing. And when we take ourselves out of ourself, we naturally lower that pressure, lower that anxiety because I'm not just obsessing about myself.

I'm focused on the other or I'm cheering on my teammates and paying attention to what they're doing rather than worrying about what I'm going to do at a future point in time.

Joey Pontarelli (43:14)

so good. I love this idea of overthinking being maybe at the core of a struggle with confidence. I remember I was talking with one of my cousins and she was saying that she was I think talking to mentor or something and he said, IQ is a little too high. If your IQ was a little lower, you would actually perform better, be more confident because you think through things too much.

And I've totally found myself falling into that as well. And so that's fascinating of like, the focus off of yourself. And I know I wanna come back to like this idea of visualization. think that's like, that's really helpful for me in a lot of arenas. But yeah, but this idea of preparation to art is also like really important. But I love that idea of like, just stop focusing so much on yourself. But I wanted to share the embarrassing story. So yeah, just a time when my confidence falters, because you shared so vulnerably. I was in college, right? And for some reason, Nicole, I just like hated.

reading in class. know, some teachers will like, you know, not just have you like answer questions, but they'll actually like, hey, read this part of the book. I don't know why I like up to that point, I'd given some like talks and done things like that. But like for some reason, reading just freaked me out. So I remember being in class with like all my friends and classmates and, just, got called on to read and I was like, and I got to a point where I just like couldn't continue. I like locked up. I like, I started reading. was like,

Literally choked. it was like, and it might even happen twice and it was so embarrassing and it's just so ironic. It's like, I guess God has a sense of humor now. puts me in front of like hundreds and even a couple thousand people to give talks. But it's, but yeah, that was like a very embarrassing moment. But I think, think one of the lessons I took away from it was like, putting so much pressure on myself to like perform. And now, you know, this whole idea of like,

I'm gonna give it my all. I'm put in the hard work, the time to prepare, and then whatever comes out, like the outcome, I'm leaving it all in the field. Whatever happens from that, it's like great, it's on God's hands, it's not under my control, but I'm literally putting to the best of my capacity now, I'm putting my effort in. But that was such a painful experience.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (45:19)

⁓ yeah. And I think that's such an excellent point that what you just said about putting it all out there and giving it your best, because this is not like I take my hands off the reins and I don't care and it doesn't matter. The outcome doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what happens to me. Like it's no big deal. It's not this laissez faire like attitude, like whatever. I

need to put an effort, I need to prepare, I need to try, and that's a good thing. And so we're more likely to walk away from something with our confidence intact when we have prepared and we have given our full effort. Sometimes what happens to athletes or other performers is that when they feel pressured, when they feel performance pressure or anxiety, they let go, but in a way where they give up effort.

and they stop caring, but out of the place of a loss of motivation because of the fear of failure. And so they're like, if I check out and I stopped trying, then I can't be blamed that it didn't happen because I'm not going to allow myself to be disappointed. And so I would just say that that trying is so important because even if you lose, right, proverbially or literally, you still can walk away saying, I gave my best effort.

I didn't give up and I think that means something. Like the quote by Mother Teresa always, Saint Mother Teresa always sticks out to me where she said, God didn't call me to be successful, He called me to be faithful. And so can I stay faithful to whatever I'm giving my all in the moment, whether it's in a relationship, whether it's in a sport, whether it's in a speaking event, can I give it everything that I have that I've learned and trained to up to this point? ⁓ And then can I

be faithful to that training and not just evaluate myself on my successful outcome or the degree of the outcome at that point.

Joey Pontarelli (47:18)

This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 430 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that.

horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado, and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary.

or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Blackstone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it. So good. I love it. I want to get even more tactical. think we've already been tactical, but just talking with people about like how they can implement this stuff in their life. And so one of the things that I just wanted to share from my personal experience was when I was in high school and college playing baseball, I came across the winning state books. I don't know you're familiar with those, but

They're great. We'll link to them in the show notes, but they have like I think it was a sports psychologist who wrote them and he has different books for different sports and I'm sure like the tactics are similar across the board but those are really really helpful and a few of the tools that I took away from that that I still use this day in different areas of my life was one ⁓ He said this like kind of like calm intensity is one of the things you want He gives the analogy of like like whenever you know, you're tackling one of these kind of big things in life whether it's know relationship

Job thing whatever and he said he gave the analogy of like a dog who was just like like a mom a mother dog Who is laying like by her puppies? Let's say she's just laying there calm But you get close to her and she'll give like a little growl like a And and like like like it's an intense growl like you're not like you mess with me I'm gonna like take you down, but it's not like a dysregulated like crazy psycho thing It's like no like I am like intense and so that that's been really helpful in a lot of different things. I even you know

before doing podcasts or whatever the scenario, kind of having that idea of like, okay, I'm like that calm intensity has been really helpful for me. Another thing that I took away from, might've been another book, but I think they talked about in those books as well was like you said before, having experiences that you can fall back on. So they would, I forget what they would call it, but like some sort of an anchor where I would think of like these just three scenarios that I, they were kind of mimicked when I'm walking into where maybe I was nervous, maybe I didn't do it perfectly, but I did get through it and maybe even did it well.

And so I always try to fall back on those things and that's been really helpful for me because it starts to change the way that you feel when you remember, and I you know this, but for everyone listening, it starts to change the way you feel when you remember those situations and think, yeah, okay, I was at that wedding and I gave that speech and people laughed and that was a couple hundred people and I got some good compliments about, I kind of forgot about that. And I'm feeling so nervous about this speech I have to give, then maybe.

I need to remember those things where it went well. And so that's been really helpful for me. But love for you to maybe expand on that and add anything else that you would add in as like these tactical tools that people can take away from this conversation and start using today.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (50:47)

Absolutely,

I love that example because that's one of the things I frequently encourage my athletes to do is to reflect on their previous successful experiences and it's kind of like watching tape, right? So there's multiple purposes of watching tape in sport but usually it's for the purpose of learning something but it's much more helpful to watch tape of yourself successfully performing well, like highlight reels.

because then you have those images in your mind and those memories in your mind of, yeah, I've done this before. And that goes back to one of the sources of confidence being past successful experiences or mastery experiences that we so often forget. Our brain is really good at focusing on negative information because it's built to protect us from a primal sense. So we are naturally going to attend to negative cues or cues of stress or danger.

just more than positive cues because they could be threats to our life. And so we need to be prepared. ⁓ But the way that happens in sport, this is again often takes place in overthinking is that we get so focused on the negative, the fears, the what could go wrong that we're just wasting mental energy on things that are not actually helping us to increase the likelihood of a future successful.

performance. So one of the things that I often work with my athletes on and people in general, especially from a Christian perspective, is the idea of our self-talk. We all have this voice in our head that is constantly chattering, constantly. And so we talk in sports psychology, we talk about talking to yourself more than listening to yourself. So oftentimes we have all these thoughts that come into our mind and we just automatically accept them as true.

So we're listening to all these thoughts that are flooding our mind. We don't often stop and pause and say, how true is this thought that I have in? How much evidence do I have for this thought? Is this thought coming from a positive, encouraging, kind place, which is the voice of God, essentially? Or is this coming from a voice of accusation, of doubt, of fear, of criticism, which

we know who the accuser is. So we know who wants to instill fear in our hearts and minds. And so if that is not the voice of God, then why am I paying so much attention to it? Why am I giving it so much power? And then we have to do the work to replace those thoughts with more helpful and they don't even have to be positive in the sense of fluffy, but just more realistic thoughts of, I've done this before.

I'm going to do my best to do it again. I've prepared for this. Think of all the positive comments and encouragement, the feedback that I've gotten in the past. Rehearse that in your mind and talk to yourself more than you're just automatically listening to all those unhelpful negative judgmental criticisms, doubts, fears. It's not going to help.

Joey Pontarelli (53:53)

never heard it said like that. That's really helpful. And man, yeah, there's so much to say, but one of the things I was just thinking of was like, so much of what we fear never actually comes true. And we would kind of forget that. In the moment, it just feels so real when it's actually not. It's just, yeah, like you said, our brain protecting us, which not a bad thing, but yeah, I can definitely hold this back. One of the, probably the best advice I've ever gotten when it came to confidence and performance and doing things that you want to do but maybe scare you is just to do it scared. Do it scared?

I love that and that's something I try to remind myself of and my four year old daughter, Lucy, she's got that ingrained in her now and so when she's scared I'm like, what are you gonna do? And she's like, I can do it scared. was like, yeah, that's Yeah, but I think that's really helpful because what some people might be thinking when we talked about the highlight reels, which I totally agree with, that's amazing, is like, I don't have that to fall back on.

And so I love your thoughts on that. Like what if they don't have that track record yet to say, to help them feel confident? What I would say from my experience of like messing up and doing things poorly is like, it's okay, like do it scared, like fail, struggle, do it imperfectly, and then in time you're gonna have enough successes or enough, you know, of a track record to fall back and say, no, I can do this, I know I can do it, it won't be perfect but I can do it. What would you say?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (55:14)

Yes, I would say everybody starts at that point. You know, we, of course, we're born with natural talents and gifts and things, but a lot of us end up doing things that we didn't expect to do. Like you said, public speaking, that's something that I never would have anticipated either. And we all had to start at that point. And I think the thing that has been most helpful for me is doing research and gathering as much information as possible, talking to people as much as possible.

So, you if you wanna improve your speaking skills, watch some videos on, you know, how to deliver a speech, talk to people that you admire that are good speakers, ⁓ you know, rehearse, make videos of yourself, like prepare yourself as best as you can, knowing that it's not gonna be perfect, that it's gonna take time to build up experience, and then remind yourself of the why. Remind yourself of why you're doing this, because if you're not connected with that sense of purpose,

The challenge is going to feel like, well, I'm just going to give up because this doesn't really matter. We know that we're doing it for a reason, that it has purpose or God has called us to it or that we've been given these gifts and we have a responsibility or an invitation to share them with others. Then we know that, OK, I can get through this hard thing. I can do it scared. I can. We often say like I can feel the fear and do it anyway. I like that movie In and Out.

with the characters, I think, or inside out.

Inside out, yes, with all the emotion characters, that. ⁓ Fear is just one of those characters and we don't have to let fear drive the bus. So like it can drive the bus and it can make our decisions and it can lead our behaviors, but we don't have to let it. We can feel it and acknowledge, say like, Hey, I know you're there. I see you, but I'm going to do this anyway, because you are not my identity. This fear is not my identity.

Something else I heard recently, think it was Father Mike Schmitz said it in one of his homilies or something, but I may be misquoting that, I'm sorry if I am, but that faith and fear both require you to believe in something that you can't see. So both faith and fear require you to believe in something you can't see. So when we believe, when we choose to believe in the fears, we can't see it, it hasn't happened yet, and we have just as much of a choice to have faith.

in what could happen if we push through the discomfort, if we challenge ourselves, if we go for it, if we do it scared.

Joey Pontarelli (57:54)

I love it. That's so good. And I know we're talking about a lot of different examples and public speaking has come up a lot. I wanted to kind of talk about that for a second. There's a podcast episode I'll link to.

where there's actually a world series of public speaking. one of the, think two of the guys who run a business teaching people how to speak well. So we'll link to that and it might seem kind of random, but I think it's really important because one of things they say in that episode is like speaking is kind of what they call like a keystone or a cornerstone habit, a linchpin habit where it's like, if you get better at that, then you're actually gonna feel more confident in other areas of your life too. And so I think that's something for if, especially if that's.

you know, maybe you need to talk a lot at work. Most speaking, by the way, is not getting up in front of a stage and giving a talk. That's actually pretty rare and like a low percentage of for most people. Most speaking is like impromptu stuff where you're getting up in front of like maybe a meeting of people at work or your classroom in school and, and being able to get better at that will instill a sense of confidence in you that will translate into other areas of life. And so I'll link to that episode. but yeah, I think, I think that's, know we're using this public speaking analogy and, and on that note,

You talked about the importance of preparation. So I know we're getting closer into our time here, but I just wanted to really focus on this and double down here. I heard Alex Hormozi, one of the top business content creators now, ⁓ he talks about this a lot. He says that confidence, like you said, is your belief that you can accomplish something, And so it's like, and it's more of, says it's like your percentage of likelihood that you could. So it's like, how confident are you? Like we said, it's a continuum. And if you're like,

If you've practiced so much and you're really good at that thing, like your percentage likelihood that you're gonna like knock it out of the park, it's pretty darn high, as opposed to something you kind of prepared for a little bit. And so one of the things that he says is like, confidence is the byproduct of proof. Where, just like you said as well, it's just he puts different words to it, where it's like if you've done this thing so many times, you have so much proof that you don't, in his words, he's like, you don't even need confidence, you're just sharing your experience, you're just talking about like what you've done.

in his environment at least. And so ⁓ he said, know, sometimes like the whole idea of faking until you make it, I think, I don't know his whole thought on that, but I think he gets it. But at the same time, he's like, no, it's better to have proof than trying to fake it. Now you need to start somewhere like we were saying. So doing it scared is I think the best advice. But yeah, I know like when he gives talks and things like he did this whole like ⁓ book launch, business book launch, I mean, he prepared for a whole year. He wrote a book.

I think he put like at least a hundred hours into preparing his presentation. And so I think like by the time he said he gets up in front of, know, these, I think it was millions of people online, it just felt like another rep. Like it felt like another practice because he had done it so many times. And so I think there's an important lesson in that too for preparation. But what else do you teach when it comes to preparation?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (1:00:47)

There's the physical element. There's the mental element and there's the in between of that would be like the physiological element. So what we're looking at is like for an athlete, you know, how have they physically trained? Have they put in the reps? Have they put in the time? What kind of coaches do they have? What kind of training experiences have they had? And so how are they training their body to be prepared to execute the sport that they play?

and the position that they're responsible for. Then you have the mental preparation, which a lot of athletes miss this. And then that's why you see very, very talented people choking or getting overwhelmed by the pressure and then not playing to their potential, even though physically they have not lost their skill. But there's what we call like a mental block or something that's

getting lost in that translation. So I think we underestimate the value of mental preparation. And what that can look like is doing some reflection on things that have gone well in past performance, things that could be better, and then how you wanna take tangible steps to continue improving. Mental preparation might also look like practicing gratitude, like before you get up for a speech or something that you're a little anxious about.

takes some time to just do a little bit of journaling, make a list of everything that you're grateful for today. And, you know, for this opportunity, for the people that have poured into you, for your life, for your ability to speak and communicate. And sometimes that takes us our focus on the deeper quality of our human experience rather than just at the surface level, I'm giving this talk and I want to be successful. Okay. Why am I here?

Why am I pushing through this discomfort to give this talk and what can I be grateful for before I perform and then doing that after to doing some reflection after the performance and again, going back to what went well, what could be better? How am going to do that? And what am I grateful for in this experience that I just had? Sorry, I just have to throw in the last. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (1:02:57)

So good.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (1:03:03)

So the physiological would also be like the things like deep breathing, exercise, sleep, nutrition, caffeine intake, all those kinds of things that can affect our physiological functioning and regulation that can help us. It doesn't usually make or break the performance, but it can help us create an environment and an internal environment that is more conducive to performance. The last one would be spiritual preparation. Prayer for me is like the core of everything.

So like, you you and I said a prayer before we got on this podcast and it's that act of surrender and ⁓ just asking the Lord to use it for His purposes and for His glory. I think when we do that before we perform and then thank Him after we perform, it sits different.

Joey Pontarelli (1:03:49)

No,

it's so good. And I love the gratitude piece. I think it kind of reframes the whole situation that you're going to as opposed to being like, oh, like I have to do this. Then maybe see it as like, I get to do this. Like, this is amazing. I, yeah. So I think that I love that advice. That's really, really good one. There's so much more we could talk about. I wanted to tie what I was saying about.

and what you said multiple times in this conversation about proof, back to this whole idea of relational confidence. I think everything we've said can be applied to relationships, especially, you come from a broken family, let's say you haven't seen romantic relationships and marriage handled well, you don't really have a good pattern for that. I think what Dr. Nicole said about surrounding yourself with people who do model healthy relationships will, by osmosis, kinda help you to do that too.

But then if you can build healthy friendships, this is one thing that was really helpful for me, you know, well before I got married with, you know, they're a little safer. You can be vulnerable. You can build something healthy there. That's proof. That's a little bit of a track record. Maybe you have mentor relationships where you can have a good, healthy relationship. can essentially like experience loving and being loved.

And then that kind of overrides that maybe experience you had at home where that just wasn't the case. And then once you have enough of those experiences, that becomes your proof that you can then take into maybe a romantic relationship into a marriage. And that will give you, think, a greater capacity to love while there and to feel confident. Because I think, yeah, we're not meant to fake it till we make it forever. Like there are times where we have to push through it and do the whole scared thing, like we were saying, but I think like the proof piece is so key. So I wanted to tie that together. Would you say it any differently?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (1:05:27)

I wouldn't,

I think that's a great point of just building up to, you know, with experience. And I would just add that even once you get to a place where, you know, you feel called to marriage and you're ready and you get married, like you're still learning, you're going to be learning for the rest of your life. And I think we, we all are going to mess up and we make mistakes and things get, patterns get triggered and we start learning more about our spouse. And so I think just,

that understanding that we are constantly learning and we're constantly in a process of healing. Even when we have made a lot of progress and God has done a lot within us and within our relationships and our healing journey, we're continuously healing. And so there's always something more to learn. So I think if you don't have proximity to learn from people that you personally know, there's so many great books and this podcast and other podcasts out there.

They have retreats, they have, you know, and then going and seeking out if there's a couple that you admire, like having a conversation with them or like you said, even with the friendship piece of just, you know, even making friends can be really as challenging as dating, you know, and ⁓ intimidating and you don't know where to start. So I think just trying to put yourself out there and gain experience and give yourself grace in the process.

And even once you've achieved that next milestone, you have a really good friendship or you have a marriage or you have children, like you're always gonna make mistakes. And like you said, make a mistake and then you figure it out.

Joey Pontarelli (1:07:06)

I love it. Awesome. Yeah. No, and I think this whole idea that confidence is not about perfection, but it's just about, you know, kind of this belief that you're to be able to get through this and do the best you can. And even if it's not perfect, like that's okay. There's like a level of like peace. I think that probably comes along with confidence too. Yeah. So, I mean, we talked about so much, but I want to make sure that people, they want more from you, ⁓ how, yeah, where can they find your work and who do you typically work with?

No, it's like who's best suited to what you offer.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (1:07:36)

I typically work with athletes primarily and other performers, I do, I'm a general psychologist as well. So I do see, you know, teens, adults, young adults all the way up through older adults. So I have a private practice and ⁓ I've worked at universities in the past. I've worked with, you know, anything from youth sport to professional sport. So that's, that's primarily my population.

Joey Pontarelli (1:08:03)

So good. just to clarify for our audience too, since you do have the private practice side of things, are you unable to see people in Florida or do you, know there's SIPAC and different ways of.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (1:08:13)

Yes. So I do see ⁓ for clinical mental health cases, so like for clients that are coming in that, ⁓ you know, maybe struggling with something like feeling depressed or feeling like generalized anxiety or with the trauma history that are seeking mental health services or therapists for those purposes. I do work with people only in Florida. So I'm not side packed yet. I haven't taken that leap yet, but I'm considering it.

But I work with athletes from all over the world, actually, if we're just doing like mental skills training. So if we're focused mainly on performance and working on sports psychology concepts, like focus, motivation, performance anxiety, pressure, things like that, confidence, and it's not going into the realm of like clinical mental health, then I can see anyone from anywhere.

basically. And I just, give the caveat that like if something comes up and it seems like you're presenting with symptoms that would be better addressed in like a therapeutic clinical setting, then I make a referral, but it doesn't mean I can't stop seeing that person. It's just that they would be talking with someone else about more of those clinical issues.

Joey Pontarelli (1:09:28)

Great. Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. That's helpful. So if someone's in Florida, you do virtual as well. Okay. Great. So someone in Florida, at this point, you know, maybe in the future you'll be somewhere else, but at this point you're in Florida, you can see people virtually or in person and like the Jacksonville area, ⁓ or north of Jackson.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (1:09:43)

I

don't have an office right now. Sometimes I'm able to find a meeting space, but most of the clients that I see are virtual because they're kind of spread out through Florida, or like I said, athletes who are spread out throughout the country or throughout the world.

Joey Pontarelli (1:10:00)

Okay, yeah, on the athlete side, it's really anyone, it's more coaching, not therapy. And then on the therapy side, it's in Florida. And eventually, maybe by the time you're listening to this, CYPAC, for anyone who's not familiar, gives therapists the ability to see clients in other states, certain states. It's a lot of them now. So maybe by that point, they could reach out to you and see if you're CYPAC'd.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (1:10:20)

likely that I will be doing that in the near future.

Joey Pontarelli (1:10:23)

Great, okay, so yeah, so maybe ⁓ to reach out, think is probably the best option. And how could they contact you? ⁓ Your website, email, what's the best option?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (1:10:32)

Yes, so if you go to PAXPerform.com, P-A-X-P-E-R-F-O-R-M, that will have all the contact information and I'm happy to talk with people too if they're unsure about services or any details, just to briefly chat and then decide if that's the right fit.

Joey Pontarelli (1:10:52)

Great, I love it. Well, it's been so good to talk with you, Dr. Nicole. Yeah, I'm really glad and hopefully this gives people a little bit of a roadmap. I know we kind of jumped around with different analogies, but the whole idea is like if there's an area of your life where you don't feel confident and you want to be more confident.

Dr. Nicole Gabana (1:10:55)

Thanks for having me.

Joey Pontarelli (1:11:08)

some of the principles and tools and lessons that we brought out today from these different environments like sports and public speaking. You can use and apply that to that area of your life. And if you need help doing that, someone like Dr. Nicole would be perfect for you. We will link all the links, you know, the books and different resources that we mentioned in the show notes for you guys to make that easier for you. But I definitely encourage you to check out Dr. Nicole's website and maybe schedule a free consult if that sounds like it'd be helpful to you. Nicole, before we close down, I just want to give you the final word.

What final advice or encouragement would you offer to everyone listening, especially to that young person listening who maybe has a lot of brokenness, emotional wounds from their family's dysfunction, their parents getting divorced, and they want to be that confident, healthy whole person, but maybe they're not there quite yet. What final encouragement would you give them?

Dr. Nicole Gabana (1:11:55)

I would just say you're not alone. I was that person, I am that person, and there's always hope. And I would just say that God loves you so much, and there is a reason that you are here. And you will learn that everything that you've experienced, even the worst parts of it, God can transform it into good, and he can make all things new. So I just want you to have that hope that things do get better.

and you will end up using your experiences and the things that you learned in ways that will help other people and that will tie into your mission and calling in life.

Joey Pontarelli (1:12:36)

That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Money Stress in a Broken Family Forces You to Grow Up | Liz: #170

What if your anxiety about money didn’t start in adulthood, but in your dysfunctional family during childhood?

Growing up with financial instability doesn’t just affect your bank account. It can train your nervous system to live in survival mode — forcing you to grow up too fast and quietly shaping how you date, marry, and handle responsibility.

In this episode, pediatric cardiac ICU physician Liz shares her story of financial chaos, parentification, and how that hyper-responsibility followed her into adulthood and marriage.

We cover:

• How money stress creates “parentified” kids

• Why responsibility can feel like survival

• How financial trauma affects relationships

If you grew up worrying about money, feel responsible for everyone, or struggle to rest — this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:48)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. What if your relationship with money was shaped long before you earned your first paycheck by the money problems within your dysfunctional family? Most people think being stressed about finances makes you somewhat responsible, but

What if it actually trained your nervous system to live in survival mode? Could explain why you struggle to relax even when things are technically fine, especially financially, why responsibility feels heavier for you than it does for other people, and why often in your relationships, you feel like the fixer, the provider, the one who has to hold everything together no matter the cost. In this episode, we explore how growing up with financial instability doesn't just affect money. It affects parentification, hyper-responsibility,

the way you show up in marriage and relationships long after childhood is over. My guest is Liz. She's a pediatric cardiac ICU physician who spends her days caring for critically ill children while also caring for her own father with moderate dementia. She shares her personal story of growing up in financial instability, becoming the emotional adult in her family, and how the survival mindset followed her into marriage, faith, and adulthood. And so if you felt like rest is in

If you grew up worrying about money before you even understood it, or maybe you've noticed that financial stress has quietly shaped how you love, how you commit, how you trust. This conversation is for you. Now in this episode, we do talk about God and faith, and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while knows this is not a strictly religious podcast, and so wherever you're at, glad you're here. My challenge for you is this, if you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God parts, you're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. With that,

Here's our conversation.

Liz, welcome to the show. So good to have you here.

Elizabeth Dorwart (02:48)

Yeah, thank you so much. really appreciate that.

Joey Pontarelli (02:51)

I'm excited to dive into your story. You wrote a blog article for our blog and we'll link to that in the show notes, but I'm excited to get into more of the details. So starting out, I'm curious from what you remember, what you were told, what was life like for you growing up?

Elizabeth Dorwart (03:04)

So, you know, when I was little, things were really great, pretty normal, happy family. I remember going to summer camp in the summer. I remember my parents always being really proud of us, especially when we excelled at something. My sister was an athlete and very good volleyball player. I was in the band. Going to mass on Sundays, morning pancakes, I would always get syrup in my hair. Pretty good memories. And about middle school and high school is kind of where things started to get tough.

as we'll talk about it, of continued to kind of get a little harder in my 20s and 30s. But, you know, my parents in general were really good hearted people who went through some really tough stuff. But I think that was unclear at the time. And that's part of why I wanted to sort of talk about it is it's easy to when you're young to form an idea of what's going on. And sometimes it becomes clear what's actually going on quickly. And in my case, it sort of took

many years to sort of unravel what was actually going on and so my understanding of my family changed a lot.

Joey Pontarelli (04:06)

No, it's fascinating. Um, because I, um, I heard, I think it was Tony Robbins say recently, like how you describe your experience becomes your experience. And I think it's really wise. It's like, okay, so it's really like what you were saying. It's really important to actually know the truth. Obviously maybe some things we're not always going to be privy to as children with our parents, because there's some level of like maybe privacy, but as we get older, I think we have a right to learn a lot of that.

But that's super interesting that you hit on that right away because I think that's really important that we really grasp reality as it is.

Elizabeth Dorwart (04:37)

I totally agree. think that's one thing I've learned along the way is that it's really easy when things are imperfect and human and full of ugly emotions and ugly realities. For a long time, I thought that that part had to be sort of hidden from God and hidden from people. And it's taken me a long time to fully appreciate like in His mercy. Number one, He knows how human we are and how broken we are. And He loves us through that, not just

accepts it and tolerates it, but he's a good father who really like he has his compassion. So that's been very freeing. Yeah

Joey Pontarelli (05:13)

Yeah, that's so beautiful. Wow. I was curious, would you describe your parents' marriage as high conflict or low conflict?

Elizabeth Dorwart (05:20)

Yeah, good question. would say it was a mix. So high conflict in the sense that there was a lot of arguing, never any physical violence. I have all the compassion and respect for people. I have to go through that. We didn't. Some of the things that were more clear, I would say, were there was always this sense of stress around finances, some sort of shame around finances and wanting to keep that a secret as a family.

And then there were some struggles with addiction as a coping mechanism in my father later on as things got harder. So yeah, there were some parts that were unclear, but I wouldn't say there was a lot that was like surprising or sudden.

Joey Pontarelli (06:05)

Yeah, and it's sometimes a high conflict, low conflict, like categorization could be a little bit hard, because it can like change a little bit and then the lines are a little bit blurred. But yeah, I know, so, you know, violence and abuse and things being thrown and being exposed to maybe like drugs and things like that is obviously the hallmark of like one of the high conflict situations, but we all can have kind of pieces of that. that totally makes sense. I'm curious, so how old were you when things started going downhill and how, if you're open to sharing, how old are you now?

Elizabeth Dorwart (06:33)

Yeah, so

I'm 42 now and I found your blog, it was just a few couple years ago. So I think the healing is ongoing and sharing the story is helpful. So I'm glad that you saw that that was a need for people to share their stories, to own it and really accept it. But I would say interestingly, so when I was seven, I have like a really distinct memory of my dad and I were playing Monopoly.

and I was beating him at Monopoly and I felt really guilty and confused as a seven year old. I was like, how am I beating my dad? This makes no sense. And I remember thinking, is he like letting me win? But it seems like he wasn't. And then around that time, interestingly enough, I think because, you know, it's amazing how much kids absorb and I'm sure parents, they do the best they can to hide or protect them from conflict. But I would hear these discussions about finances and the race.

stressed, pressured discussions. And I remember asking my dad, what are taxes? How do taxes work? And what happens if we can't afford taxes? And I was so stressed. I'm a high strung individual. That's my nature. Anyway, and he said, no, it's a percentage of what you earn. Like, don't worry. That's, know, and he kind of laughed it off. But that's been an interesting part of the story, because unfortunately, he struggled a lot because of some undiagnosed

probably football related brain injury. He played football in high school and college and played on the offensive line. So I'm sure had many concussions. so kind of as all the discussions like five, 10 years ago came out about concussions and CTE or chronic traumatic encephalopathy, I kind of started to wonder and realize like, wow, his story of being a vibrant, friendly, he's a gentle giant, he's six four.

big guy, but friendly, everybody loved him. And outgoing, he was in sales. And through my teens and 20s and 30s, he would struggle to keep jobs. then as a man and someone tried to be a provider, there was a lot of shame hidden in that and a lot of struggles with depression. Anyway, sorry, it's a long winded answer. But yeah, but I feel like it was interesting because there's times that I wonder, like, wonder if that was.

Joey Pontarelli (08:45)

That's a good answer.

Elizabeth Dorwart (08:53)

guardian angel or the Holy Spirit or something kind of clueing me into maybe part of the story that was going to happen later on. And there are some beautiful like elements of providence that I only saw much, much later on. And so in that period of time was going through a lot of confusion, frustration at God, frustration at my dad, frustration at the whole situation and lack of trust was a big thing for me. But it has come to, I feel like it.

into my late 30s and 42, there's been a lot more understanding of, oh wow, God is a good father and he really did provide, even through my father who couldn't provide financially, but would always give us blessings and take us to church. He provided in the ways that mattered.

Joey Pontarelli (09:37)

Okay, beautiful. No, thanks for sharing all that. Okay, so you had that experience when you were seven. Would you say that's when things went downhill or was it a little bit later or was it of sprinkled through?

Elizabeth Dorwart (09:47)

Yeah, good question. ⁓ I would say, so in middle school, my dad lost a job and he was working in sales and he became really depressed. And it was the first time I really saw my dad not just cry, but really struggle to regain hope. And his personality kind of changed in middle school and high school. He became more withdrawn, you know, the lovable, ready to talk to everybody, life of the party.

dad that I knew kind of disappeared and that was hard. He was very withdrawn. It's a tough thing to go through, so I can only imagine how difficult that was. My mom was scared. And then when I was in, at the end of high school, my sister had gone away to play. She played volleyball at the University of Oklahoma. So we became Texans who then had to struggle with, we go for the Oklahoma Sooners or do we go for Texas? And there's a big rivalry there. So was kind of a funny.

That's awesome. We were like, what do we do? So when you walk down the street in Texas with an OU sweatshirt, you get a lot of dirty looks. People are like, ooh, get out of here. But so when my sister went away for college, I remember, I think I was 14, my mom said, there is no money for college, and you will go to college. So we were in the car, and she said, I'm dropping you off at H-E-B. It's a grocery store in Texas. It's pretty popular. And you will get a job. And so, OK.

and I got my first job. And then that wasn't hard as much as it was just sort of a stark reality of like, you're now growing up. And I'm glad I'm grateful for it now. And then sadly, at the end of my high school career, just before I went to college, may I shame us, it's cool. My dad was really depressed and had a near attempt. So almost committed suicide. Thanks be to God, at the last minute, he changed his mind. He actually called a deacon at our church who's a wonderful man.

and came to the Deacon, came to where he was and got him help. But that was ⁓ a really big moment as I'm sure it is for anyone. And I have a lot of compassion for people who have to bear the huge cross of losing someone to suicide, but even nearly losing someone was, it really changed the way I looked at the world. It made me sort of very fearful and sort of assume that this is what's normal. I think that's what happens when you're young if something happens to you traumatic.

that's traumatic, it's easy to say this is how the world is and luckily it's not.

Joey Pontarelli (12:13)

When the suicide attempt radiation hold you.

Elizabeth Dorwart (12:17)

So that would have been right at 18. It was my senior year of high school right before I went away to college.

Joey Pontarelli (12:24)

Yeah, that's such a tender age and difficult for all of you guys, man. I wanna push a little bit more into the financial stress side of things, because I think there's a lot of people who can relate to that. Before I go there, I was curious, at any point in your story, did you ever wish that your parents had gotten divorced? I know there's a lot of people who sometimes feel that. They sometimes feel like, things are so bad at home. Maybe they heard about, maybe even if they're young, they've heard about this idea of divorce, or they knew someone who went through it and like, yeah, that would be better. So yeah, and then later, it made me feel a lot of shame, like I wish I wouldn't have.

said that because now things got worse or whatever. But I'm curious if you were ever in that situation, did you ever wish that they had gotten the divorce? Okay, real talk, if you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people and it was really helpful for me personally. In the guide, he breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make, like under eating.

overstressing or focusing too much on the scale and it gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use and can implement today. And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never going to get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally.

Elizabeth Dorwart (13:39)

Yeah, I can definitely empathize with that. I would say in my 20s, I was married, I had decided to go to medical school, I was in medical school, and there was a lot of big, I kind of call them financial explosions, and I think a lot of these were related to my dad. Cognitive abilities were getting worse and worse, and he was just doing the best he could.

At the time, we didn't know that. so everybody in the family was so frustrated at him and so confused. And trying to be a young person who's grappling with your parents, can't seem to handle things that maybe it looks like on the outside other parents have figured out or should have figured out was definitely, I definitely went through periods of that. My sister was actually brave enough to say it out loud and I wasn't, but I definitely felt it.

because after a while of their marriage became so strained, I can't imagine raising kids. And my mom was raised in a family where her mother was the stay at home mom, was married to an Air Force general who was sort of a take charge person who was a leader and handled all of the finances. And my mom didn't want anything to do with that and didn't think it was part of her job.

didn't want to take on the responsibility, was scared of all that responsibility, especially because it wasn't going well. And so there was a lot of resentment between resentment from a mom towards my dad, even though she's a wonderful, hardworking, very faithful woman. But you know, it doesn't matter how faithful you are, anger and emotions are real. They're a part of being a human and being disappointed and dealing with disappointment. And so seeing her be frustrated at him and him continue to be ashamed.

as he declined and I think he was trying to figure out what was going on. Why can't I just fix things? Why can't I keep a job? Why can't I handle finances? He never said those things to me, but you could just see it. And looking back, just looking back, I can see all of those elements. Yeah, there was definitely moments and I was just like, they'd be better off alone or better off, excuse me, apart. But my mom was pretty stubborn, but pretty, she was honest about it. Like we got really close.

into my 30s. And sometimes she would call me to really vent and it felt awful because it gave me this new insight I didn't want. I wanted to keep this idealistic view of my dad and my mom. I didn't want to see these ugly emotions. So that was hard. And not to be too Pollyanna about it, but I just think this stuff is really the beautiful redemptive part of the story that I think, you know, needs to be said because God really did redeem all the ugliness and there was a lot. So my mom, you know, she was kind of broken at

many points. And she told me one time when we were, you know, I was an adult and your relationship changes and you could be more honest with each other. And she didn't have to hide anything from me because I wasn't young anymore. And she said, you know, there are weeks when I the only way I think I can get through this marriage and all of these struggles and all of these financial problems and all of these, you know, she was aging, getting arthritis and all this looking forward to she didn't know how they were even going to retire. They couldn't even like do basic repairs on their home.

in Texas where things were more affordable in the 80s and 90s and 2000s. And she would say, you know, ⁓ the way I get through the week is I do an hour of adoration every week. And that's how I get through the week. And she didn't do that her whole life. That was something she discovered, you know, into her like 50s and 60s. But she would just say, Jesus, I need an hour of you to get through a week of my family because nothing is easy. And at the time I thought,

Gosh, that was so harsh to hear. I wanted it to be softened somehow and be happier somehow, but it was so real. And I think it showed how much like her faith really did sustain her. So that was inspiring. I mean, it's humbling too, because I'm much ⁓ more self-reliant and like, I'll just go do it. And then I'll clue you in when I need you, I mean, that's part of my, yeah, it's a theory I need to grow in.

Joey Pontarelli (17:48)

I'm type A too, so the self-reliance is definitely a, oh my goodness, yeah. We think we could tackle the world, and in some ways we can, but in other ways, I mean, in all ways, we definitely can't do it alone. But I could tell that the financial stress was just a big part of your story, so I wanted to dig into that even further. I can relate, first of all. My dad worked in construction, he made good money, but my parents, they would tell you this, they didn't know how to manage it well.

especially when he lost his job and it was just a really hard time for him because he found so much worth and value in his work and he's really, really good at what he does. And it was just a hard time for him, for my mom, for their family. You know, and I was younger, so my memory of it is more of like maybe what I've learned from others, but I do remember some of it. But this whole idea that like job loss and financial stress in particular is really difficult on a marriage. And I remember hearing another interview.

where one of the guys from Shark Tank of all people was saying, he's like, I've done a lot of research into this. He said, a marriage, it's really difficult, but a marriage can survive an affair, but it can't really survive financial stress. Like you can come back from an affair, in his opinion he was saying, but financial stress is even more devastating than that, which is just wild to hear, but I've found it to be true in so many ways. And so I'm curious, what did that like financial instability,

How did that make you feel in particular growing up and then where did that leave you once you got on your own?

Elizabeth Dorwart (19:14)

Great question. I am so glad that you asked. So, and it's funny, I sometimes I get nervous talking about this because it's such a part of my story. And I like, I think about how it's going to come across as like financially obsessed, but it really does. I appreciate that the guy at Shark Tank said that, cause I totally agree. I think when there's just so much stress and then there's just, it's like, you can't just have joy and in relationships you need to have moments where it's just like,

the stress melts away for even a weekend or a day and you can just celebrate. My sister used to say this a lot. She used to say, you know, after things got hard, the biggest thing I resented is that we couldn't just relax and make memories together. We couldn't just go away. And even if it was just a, a relaxed, you know, weekend at some cheap hotel or, you know, something really frugal, but there just wasn't that breathing space to do it. And so for me, I definitely,

became, I reacted really hard against that. I assumed that if my parents can't handle it, like I knew my dad wasn't, to me he was a normal dad. He wasn't a rocket scientist, but he seemed like he could handle things. I didn't see the cognitive deficits at the beginning. And so I thought, man, if my mom and dad can't handle this, then the world must be incredibly expensive and finances must be incredibly scary and hard to manage because my parents can't do it. And then,

You know, I'll be perfectly honest, when I was in high school, kind of floated through high school, enjoyed school, was a good student, just kind of naturally loved to read books. know, calculus, forget it, that's hard for everybody. But I thought I really love music. And so I thought, okay, I'm going to be a music teacher, or maybe I'll go into something like healthcare. My mom was a, was a physical therapist, lot of aunts who are nurses. ⁓ But I wanted to care for people, I wanted to teach, I wanted to

focus on music. That was what I wanted to do. I didn't worry about finances before all of this sort of everything got hard. ⁓ And then after my dad's attempt, you know, I remember being really worried in college and seeing a lot of wholesome families who seemed together and happy, but just thinking, my gosh, if I get married and have children and like, there is a real possibility that my future husband could have the same attempt and not be able to keep a job. So I need to be able to provide for the entire family. So

that plus my mom saying, you know, if you want to be in medicine, ⁓ you know, don't let lack of confidence prevent you from applying to medical school. You're smart. I think you could do it. And so that was part of my decision to do it. But definitely thinking about I need a doctor's salary. was an I need that because the world is so expensive and scary. I must have that. And so I think there was a lot of

limitation. I think God did redeem that. There's been many beautiful moments that I'm very thankful that I went into medicine. I have a spiritual director I meet with monthly and she's pointed out these things that I haven't seen. And she's like, look at, you know, look at all this good that God has pulled out of you feeling like you had to be a physician, even though, you know, residency is very hard.

student loans are very hard just the stress, but he redeemed even that. I wouldn't, I think if this hadn't happened and I had been in a family that had a lot more peace, I probably wouldn't have gone into medicine, probably the medical field of some fashion. you know, everybody in medicine on every level is important to taking care of the patient from the unit clerks to the custodial staff to everything on up to the CEO. So anyway, I delve really, sorry, I long winded.

Joey Pontarelli (22:52)

No, no, this is great. But the financial piece is just like so important for you. could tell even like you talking about it. like, it almost like, this is what I'm hearing you say, it's like, it just felt like it's survival for you. Like if you didn't figure this piece out, ⁓ like you, things were gonna be really bad. That's at least what your mind and your body were telling you.

Elizabeth Dorwart (23:12)

Yeah, absolutely. And part of that was reinforced by, you know, things as I went into my 20s, sorry, like a very long story, a little shorter. As I went ⁓ into my 20s and 30s, my parents struggled more and more and so I went into a six-step mode. So I learned about all about Dave Ramsey and managing money and staying out of debt. And then I met a wonderful guy who coincidentally came from a very lovely

set of parents who happened to be very frugal. They came from humble families and just were frugal people and hardworking and also had a lot of fortune in their luck and good providence in their professional careers. But there was a lot of comparison there that was difficult. And then ⁓ my husband's career took us to California, which very expensive state. So there was sort of extra pressure. There was like the student loans was extra pressure. But I paid off my student loans really quickly so that I could help my parents because in my 20s and 30s,

there was like things would come up. My dad would, I think with all the best of intentions, open up credit cards and try to find a product he could sell because he always knew he could go back to sales. But he was unsuccessful multiple times. And looking back, I can tell it was because the cognitive abilities were slowly declining. One time he didn't pay the taxes for seven years and we found out in a surprise fashion. I wanted, yeah, I'm sorry. want to tell the audience, all your listeners.

I wouldn't share this many details if my dad was still in a state where he would hear or it would hurt his dignity. He's got pretty moderate dementia, so functions about like a five or six year old now. He's about 76 years old. So that's the reason I feel like it's okay to share. But so there was a lot of big sort of financial explosions that came up and luckily my husband's kind of a level-headed guy and he would just sort of dive in and try to help fix and we

tried to live frugally so that we could try to fix by giving my parents what they needed to help fix up their home. Yeah. But it never, it felt like the pressure didn't let up frankly from sort of medical school on and that was a lot of discussions I'd have with that is like, it's been so intense. It's been so intense for so long and it just seems to be like a slowly unfolding train wreck and I don't, you know, it was really easy to get hopeless and just feel like it's never gonna get better. It's only gonna get harder.

Joey Pontarelli (25:39)

wow, no I totally hear you and it's so interesting that you went the route of just like trying to be really good at making money and really good at managing the money.

And I think those are great skills to have, but it's unfortunate how it was like kind of thrusts upon you to like figure this out because it felt like survival with my family. My mom later got into Dave Ramsey's stuff and took the course and then, you know, shared stuff with us. And, you know, I went through the course and I went through with my wife. And, and so we follow, you know, his principles as well. And that was incredibly helpful. Now it's funny if when I look at me and all my siblings, everyone is in a spot where we're like stable.

financially and it's a beautiful thing. So I think like one of the kind of redeeming aspects I wanted to focus on, I know you want to focus on too, is that there was some good, even though it was kind of hellish going through it all, there was good that came out of it, now you're in a better spot. And I think to anyone who's maybe living through that now or who is kind of scarred by maybe a situation like Liz described, hopefully our situations can offer some hope that it doesn't always have to be.

that way and yeah, might take time. It's definitely gonna be hard. It's painful. But can get to a spot where you're better and ⁓ it doesn't mean you're crazy wealthy or anything like that. But you can be at a spot where you are able to provide for your needs and not be able to stress about it. Because there's nothing, yeah, I don't know if there's anything worse than money stress.

Elizabeth Dorwart (27:06)

Yeah, I agree. I guess I can't remember the name of the friar but there's one of the Franciscan friars of the renewal who I love and I watch sometimes and he says, Poco a Poco, little by little. Yes, don't lose hope. Just one foot in front of the other. Do a good job at whatever you do. I'm so thankful that Dave Ramsey says it's just like it's God's money and he gives it to you to manage. Or you could say the same with like talents, I think, you know. He gives you certain talents, go use those. He gives you energy or he gives you health.

go use it. And if there's a time in your life when you're deprived of those things, you know, that's another thing I had to come full circle onto is because I weren't so extreme into, ⁓ everything has to be fixed and everything has to be following these rules. It was easy for me to think because I was surrounded by physicians and I was in a very, we were in the Bay Area, which is very fast paced and there's a lot of really high achieving people and

There's a lot of focus on status or achievement or degrees and it's easy to get pulled into that. I think part of the story too is I think God allowed me to be humbled in some ways because and it taught me right to remember like it's about doing whatever you do well. It's not that there's a certain career or a certain level of wealth that necessarily gives you more dignity. You know, we all contribute.

Joey Pontarelli (28:28)

Yeah, and I think one of the lessons since we're talking about wealth that was really helpful for me and I'm curious any other lessons that you would want to pass on to like the younger you when it comes to finances before we move on to some other topics. But one of the lessons that I loved hearing was just that wealth is really, it's not for you in the sense that.

True wealth can be measured by the quality of your relationships, and so your money really is meant to enrich your relationships. It's not meant to just accumulate a ton of stuff, because we've been through that. Especially our parents' generation, they were more the generation of buying things. Our generation's more the generation of experiencing things, which has its own pitfalls we have to be careful of. But I think that the purpose of wealth is to, the purpose of money is to enrich your relationships, and true wealth is measured not by the stuff you have, but about the quality of your...

relationships and the rest of your life. So that was like one of the shifts for me. But one of the other, I think, lessons too, is just that, yeah, like you can be frugal and then you can also work really hard. So you can decrease the expenses and you can increase the income. Like there's ways of doing it and it won't happen immediately. You might fall and fail and mess up, but I think there's so much hope. And I think that's what Dave Ramsey does so well is like he shows people who maybe don't believe that it's possible that actually know it is because there's someone like you doing it right now. And if they can do it, you can do it too.

So anyway, so many lessons and I could talk money all day. actually studied finance as my undergrad. So I love this topic, but I'm curious, what are maybe some of the main lessons when it comes to money that you learn through this really kind of grueling experience? For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault.

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Elizabeth Dorwart (31:02)

I think one of the best things that I learned and I think this is, I think God, you know, he definitely puts people in your path that you need to learn from. My in-laws are really good about not falling into like a dis-American materialism comparison trap that we all are so susceptible to and it's hard. I remember watching them and I've always been like, love people and I love to watch people and I think I love to.

Maybe it's because I'm a little type A and a little perfectionistic, but also had a lot of fear when all this was going on in my high school years and my 20s. There was a lot of that I would look for advice and I would watch people and I would try to think about other couples that were like doing it well or doing it right. ⁓ Not that there's, you know, we're all in a journey, right? But they were just happy with simple things and it had a sense of just kind of natural gratitude for, you know, I don't need a brand new

I don't need brand new Tupperware. can use the same Tupperware that I got handed down from my grandmother, you know, 30 years ago. Or I can do a simple thing. Like we don't need to go out and eat. We can make a delicious meal at home. And my mother-in-law really was a good cook. And so it actually was delicious. And I think growing up in a family where sometimes it felt like, like the fancy thing to do is going out to eat. And it's like, well, in a lot of restaurants you could probably make something just as delicious or more at home for keeper.

So I think there's lots of examples of that you could think of, of like pulling back in certain areas so that you can spend in your other areas that enhance your life. My mother-in-law loves to play the piano, so she has a nice piano, ⁓ but she uses that gift and she's developed it. It brings her joy. ⁓ She sings and plays at her church. So both can happen at the same time. It's not a black or white, like everything is.

pinching pennies and stressful or everything is lavish. You know what I mean? Like it's a mixture like every part of life is. And then I just think just it's so hard to trust. And if someone said this to me at the time, I probably wouldn't have believed it. But if I can say like just trust that God does provide, maybe he doesn't directly hand you the money. Maybe he doesn't like I'm not saying prosperity gospel. I'm not saying like, just claim it and say a prayer and a thousand dollars will fall into your lap at all.

Joey Pontarelli (33:25)

That would be nice.

Elizabeth Dorwart (33:26)

I wish it was. Not at work. But, you know, he puts both the good and the bad in your life. And the bad, he'll redeem it eventually. It will be very unclear sometimes. You'll get humbled, but you'll eventually come around to where that humility you realize benefits you somehow. Like, there's been times in my life where I've had conflicts at work, I've gotten really humbled at work. And then a few years later, I realized that that humility that I was sort of forced into,

taught me a lesson that benefited me and someone else will say, like I had a coworker a year ago, she was like, I think you're one of the most humble people I've ever met. And I just started laughing because I was like, I am not by any means humble. am. I have an ego that gets in my way all the time. But I thought about that and I thought it was funny because I just thought, you know, if I hadn't gone through those really crappy situations, I wouldn't have gotten humbled and I wouldn't be here.

So God, even in that, was doing something. He was providing for me, maybe not directly financially, but he was providing me the things I needed for the next steps. If you just, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (34:31)

No, no, that's so good and I appreciate you sharing all that and I, yeah, there's so much more we can say about the financial side of things but I think the last thing I was just gonna say is, yeah, I think it has so much to do with this feeling of safety and security and it's not about, for so many of us, especially who came from maybe families where money wasn't handled well, it can really, it can feel, maybe traumatizing is a strong word but it can feel really scary and like, ⁓ gosh, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to provide it so.

Yeah, no, even with me, I remember in college, I would give myself like a $10 a week, like budget to spend on things. And often I wouldn't even use it because I was just like so careful. And I was like, I'm putting myself through school, I'm taking dad, not going to go out and do all this stuff. And I'll just do the free stuff and play sports. But I think there was an aspect of like me just desiring like, just want to be safe. Like I just I don't want to be in a situation where I'm going to be.

Yeah, maybe not at someone else's mercy, but just like not not feeling safe. And so that was like a big motivation for me. So if you're feeling that you're not alone, and if you didn't see your parents handle money well, and you want to handle it better, like Liz has, then I definitely recommend Dave Ramsey's course. We'll link to that in the show notes. There's zero pressure from us, of course, and we don't, we're not incentivized to say any of that. But we've seen a lot of results he's helped about, I think.

about 10 million people and most like have massive transformations within like this first like I think six months or less. So you can see like really good results if you have a plan that works and Dave always says there's great hope in a clear plan and that's what it gives you when it comes to money. yeah, so anything you would add to that before we maybe shift the conversation a little

Elizabeth Dorwart (36:09)

Yeah, no, I think you I think you said it really well and watch his when you get down watch his Radio show and just watch those families that really shows that you can anybody can get there doesn't matter your budget It's just it's not what you make. It's what you keep ⁓ for your family and then when you have enough to give then you give and And that parts really fun

Joey Pontarelli (36:31)

Yeah, yeah. And that's, remember hearing that quote, what is it? If you don't think money can buy happiness, you can't, haven't given enough away. And so I think that's so much, that's beautiful to be able to be generous or to help a family in need or something like that. So I want us to shift a little bit to a topic that a lot of our audience struggles with this, which is this whole idea of like having to be parents to our parents. I mean, you could probably write a book on this with everything you've done. So I'm curious, like imagine you're talking to the younger you.

Elizabeth Dorwart (36:51)

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (37:00)

What advice would you give to them? What do you maybe wish you would have known back then?

Elizabeth Dorwart (37:04)

Yeah, so I did a ton of counseling years and, you know, I'll just be honest about it. I know there's a lot of some people who still have some some holdouts and shame about about that. But I hope it's something that we're all learning as a society to talk about more openly or at least, you know, just allow other people to be wherever they are in their story because it's so helpful. But I had a lot of great counselors that taught me that about being parentified, as I think what they call it in the psychology literature.

how it's normal to become hypervigilant, it's normal to become hyperresponsible, it's normal to find it to be difficult to relax because the world is really scary when the people who are supposed to take care of you are not able to do that for whatever reason and to feel like you have to take the reins. It can make it, I guess I would just say allow yourself to know that that response is normal to accept yourself.

and to love yourself, give yourself some mercy because you're going through a tough thing. And those responses are very human and they're very normal and they take a long time. I mean, I'm still working through ⁓ learning to relax, learning to pull off the gas pedal, learning to like I reminding myself I don't have to take care of everything just because I did that role for a long time. And my spiritual director actually was telling me a story about in Japan, there's a

a ceremony called the, something like the ceremony of the loyal soldier. But they take soldiers who have been in battle and when they're ready to integrate into civilian life, they struggle. And so they have a ceremony where everybody in the community comes and they thank them out loud as a group. Thank you for your service. You are now finished with your service. It's giving me chills. It's like, ⁓ it's like, so, but.

And that's what it takes, plus a lot of time for people to shift gears into knowing that they can rest and not be, and I can't imagine, know, like everything I went through is little T traumas that caught, like I can't imagine being on a battlefield or going through like true PTSD, having like my life endangered or seeing violence or violence toward me. But I think that there is a small portion of that and there's a lot of resentment.

that can go along with a lot of anger that I had to deal with and worked through and it took time. It wasn't like one day I said a prayer and, you know, automatically all those ugly feelings went away. So the thing, one of the things that helped me is it became more clear over time that it was truly a medical issue for my dad. And so, but even that, it still took years to accept it and to say, well, I was so frustrated at him for making all these poor decisions and putting me in these situations where

I felt like I had to excele of these things. know, my mom would cry when the taxes weren't paid. They had to lean against their home. The home was almost taken away and we had to help negotiate that. And by the grace of God, they were able to keep their home. sorry, I don't want to traumatize everybody else. so but I and now I'm in a caregiving role. So my mom passed away sadly from a really rare ocular melanoma eye cancer in 2020. She was diagnosed. She passed away in 2021.

I have to insert this because it's a huge moment of grace. Sorry to tell this part of God's story because he, sorry. He writes the most beautiful stories, just sometimes really confusing as you're going through them. So, but I feel like I want that to be my quote on my headstone someday is like, God writes the most beautiful stories. Like he is the best plot writer. Just hang in there because, ⁓ so my mom passed away. Her mother had died on Good Friday and she had

was getting, we were getting close and she wanted to pass away. Good Friday. She had a real appreciation for the suffering Jesus, which I sort of appreciate from afar. And I'm like, I don't want to do all the suffering like can somebody else? No, thanks. Thank you for doing it for us. I really just want to sit in my cozy home and drink some coffee and pet a puppy as we all do, right? So 30 minutes over midnight, she's in our house in San Jose. She was the only one working at the time because my dad wasn't driving or working anymore.

And when she got diagnosed, they couldn't stay in their home. They didn't have anything in savings and they couldn't make the mortgage. So we had to rent the home out. 30 minutes before midnight, her breathing slowed and I had given a pope. was like, she's not gonna make it. It's gonna be the day after Good Friday. And her breathing slowed and her heart rate slowed and she very peacefully passed. And she got her last wish and it was just like, that can't be anything other than the grace of God. Like it was just the most beautiful ending to a really hard story.

Joey Pontarelli (41:44)

⁓ Wow, what a severe mercy. My goodness. Well, thank you for sharing that and I love that one. I think that the whole parentification thing is really tricky because there's an aspect of it that sometimes it's thrust upon you and you can do nothing else but the best you can and you can't often just walk away. There's other situations where maybe you can and you should, but that's not always the case. And so it's a really difficult thing. And that's where anyone who's in that situation, I think,

like you said, spiritual direction, therapy, maybe a good mentor who can guide you through it because each situation is so unique that we can talk principles, but it's really helpful to be able to apply those properly in any given scenario. But yeah, no, I think your story is like really helpful and difficult to hear because of how much you suffered. you, was, you know, I'm sure a lot and I know now there's such redemption and it's beautiful, but like talking to someone who's going through it now, it's like,

There's such a level of injustice. There's such a level of like, it's holding you back. It's causing you stress. You know, just doing all these things that are just, it's not supposed to be this way. That's the whole kind of takeaway. So let's say someone listening right now, let's say little Liz is listening right now and she's going through that. Are there any other lessons that you, cause you have so much wisdom. I want to make sure I get all the wisdom out of you. Is there any other lessons I guess you would offer to the younger you when it comes, if they're kind of getting pulled into this whole parentification situation in addition to what you already said?

Elizabeth Dorwart (43:09)

So great, it's a great question. And I thank you for asking because I want to be fully transparent about that. By no means was my story like I'm a human and I look back and there are things I regret. There are things that I wish I had done differently. I think that's going to happen for all of us. It's a beautiful and very difficult part of sort of reaching midlife is looking back and going, yeah, I really wish I had done that differently. And I can't really point the finger at anybody else except myself. But yeah, I would say just give it to God.

And also be a human, allow yourself to cry, feel angry, vent multiple times to trusted people, whether it's a counselor, whether it's a priest, whether it's a best friend. I was ashamed for a long time and I tried to hide things. I just didn't feel comfortable sharing it. I just assumed everybody else's families have it figured out, mine's such a mess and I don't want to share it. And that doesn't help anybody and it definitely doesn't help you. So try to open up as you feel comfortable. It's hard at first and it gets easier.

you know, with time and, you know. And then I think just be merciful to yourself to know that it's okay at times to say, you know, I'm depleted. I need to take care of myself. I'm young, I'm overwhelmed. I'm trying to focus on ⁓ my own career, my own marriage. You know, I'll be perfectly transparent. I was so overloaded with what was going on with my parents that there's times when I put them first before my own husband and he, you know,

I think wouldn't mind me saying that there's been times when he said, you know, I really felt like when you got married, like the Bible says, you're supposed to cleave to your spouse and they're your number one. And I felt like you would never do that. And I that frustrates me. It's hard. It's a hurt that he has to heal, too. I never felt comfortable because I was so focused on finances and I was so focused on fixing everything. I never felt like there was a time when we could have kids and when we tried it, it didn't happen. And that's another hurt. I would say help.

and also know that you need to call in other people. It's not all you. It can't be all you. Like no one can, in the hospital, right? I can't, if we have a dying patient, I can't run a code by myself. I need nurses, I need RTs, I need ⁓ specialists, need, you know, the best medical team is a huge medical team with lots of brain power, all tackling it from different areas. Part of it was hard for my parents.

They didn't, you they were ashamed. I want to be respectful of their privacy. But I think if I could do it again, or if I could give advice to someone else, I would say gently encourage your parents to find peers who can help in addition to you. It's normal to feel like it's all on you or it's your fault, but it takes a huge village. And so make sure you focus on yourself too. Focus on your family, focus on your career, your rest, your friends, all of the things that make us a happy, healthy human, your physical health, right? You need all those things.

to keep running the marathon. You need to have joy. You need to go on vacation sometimes and just get away from the burden so that you can go back and help them carry it again, right? Like Jesus had Simon help him, right? He was God, right? So we all need help. guess that's what I'd say.

Joey Pontarelli (46:18)

That's really helpful. Thank you for all of that. And I think at the end of the day, to you and to everyone listening, would say what you've done has been heroic and really beyond even what's required. It's really beautiful to see how you went through a lot of hurt.

And some people who've been through what you've been through become very bitter and angry at their parents. And I know you said you've wrestled work through that, me too. But they end up putting their parents out in a situation where it's like they don't help them. And so it's really beautiful and redeeming. could tell that you have been able to work through that and not be in a spot where you're giving, you're kind of giving your parents or your dad now the care that you wish maybe would have been shown to you and not saying that, you know, not pointing fingers at him or anything, but it's really, it's beautiful. There's like such a redemption in that. And I just wanted to highlight that before.

shifting to the final part of the conversation, which is ⁓ relationships. So were you like me and just terrified of love and marriage and relationships or where were you with that? This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary Denver.

priests who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 430 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado and he sat with couples on the

rink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Blackstone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it.

Elizabeth Dorwart (48:20)

Yeah, no, definitely. So it's kind of funny. I dated in high school as a public school kid and then I went to the University of Dallas. It was a wonderful experience, amazing education. I mean, I met real men of God and went, wow, there's actually guys in the world who like really believe in their faith and like live it. You know, as a public school kid, I remember like having guy friends and being like, oh, they're attractive. And then you find out like somebody whispers, oh, they're thinking about the seminary. And I was like, I don't know what that means. Like, can I talk to them? Do I have to?

Is there like a distance we have to, I don't know what to do. Just like looking back, it's so funny. Anyway, but wonderful priest and I'm so thankful for their service to our church. But so, I didn't date at UD, I just focused on studies, just, I don't know, didn't really meet anybody. So that was kind of a funny thing for four years and then I went out and I was dating in the real world and that was a real shock because, know, online dating was just starting, but I was, was scared and I was, I think,

I think because my journey was going to be so hard and so long and God knew that in his eternal wisdom, I think he put my husband in my path because he knew I wasn't going be able to do it alone. So I do think I'm very thankful for that. think if I hadn't met my husband, I did. And the way things continue to get more difficult through my 20s and early 30s, ⁓ yeah, can't imagine meeting someone and then...

sort of feeling like I was burdening them with that. I can't imagine really having the time and the brain space to even want to date. There was so much, so I'm very grateful that I met him when I did. I think that's another redemptive part of the story is I wonder sometimes if everything had gone smoothly, would I have picked up on some of the qualities that my husband had? He told me when we first started dating, he said, I've only been in one serious relationship.

and she broke my heart. And one of the things is she used to tell me that I'm not romantic. So I'm very nervous about how I'm not spontaneous and romantic enough. And high school me would have been like, oh yeah, like, bye. But it was just so funny because I'm a very idealistic, spontaneous, all over the place, kind of untreated ADD person. But it was like that steadiness and that just,

I don't want to say predictability because that sounds like boring. He's not boring. But he's the dependability is something I never would have appreciated if I hadn't grown up in a chaotic home. ⁓ And so, I even think God redeemed that. Like, I think He wouldn't have been like, I met Him. I just was like, I can rest around Him. I can rest because He's logical to a fault. It's so funny. Like, sometimes I know how He's going to like, He's a scientist. And so, any problem you come to Him with, He like,

he's like, well, according to XYZ principle in science, I just die laughing every time. But it's that, like that is a gift. And some people are like that. And guess that's the other thing I would tell people is when you meet people like that, that just your soul just rests, whether it's a friend or romantic partner, like lean on those people, because you need that peace and you need that steadiness to also help you handle whatever chaos is going on in your life. And I think

I think the alternative is also true when you're going through a lot of chaos, when you add another element of chaos or another chaotic person, it kind of just makes things much more difficult. So I would just say, try to be wise about that. know, everybody's journey is gonna be a little bit different. you know, I know some people are really gonna have ⁓ families that have a lot more trauma and a lot more dysfunction. And you know, there, there may be certainly scenarios where you need to step away from.

a parent or a loved one for a period of time, you know, for your own safety or anything like that. But I think a beautiful thing, you know, when you're looking for someone is to think about things like, I don't know, I just really believe that God gives us all gifts that really pull out different things in different people, know, different, He made us all so different and it cracks me up when I'm around somebody who's really direct because I'm really sensitive and it has an impact on me that's interesting, you know, or

I'm really empathetic and some people are not built that way. And so sometimes when I say something, you know, and people will say, kind of, did you pick up on that? Or, know, I had one time a friend say like, pointed out like, Liz, you're really, you're really warm. And you're good at like setting out a warm like environment. And I sort of thought, wait a minute, why is that? Like, this is how it always been. Why is that different? Sorry, I'm kind of going over this because I worked in the hospital last night. So forgive my tired brain. I think it's just interesting to point out those things and to think about

how different personalities work and just watch the person that you're dating or even friends. They'll have different impacts on sort of, I don't know, the climate or the feeling in your family. And I think stuff like that, it doesn't have to be like a make or break, but I think it's helpful to sort of think about that and to think about somebody who obviously is respectful or sort of whatever.

I think sometimes people can be a fix, can be part of the fix that God's trying to provide you. Sometimes it's like you need a different type of personality or a person with a different background or just a different way of approaching life, different way of communicating that it changes the dynamic in maybe a dysfunctional family. And it certainly did for ours. My husband is, he cracks me up. His parents and his whole family, they're very just naturally.

considerate of each other. very polite to each other. Versus my family dynamic, there was certainly a lot of outside pressures that amplified our natural predisposition. But our predisposition, you'd think that we weren't mixed Irish with a little bit of German and Texan heritage. You'd think we were fiery Italians. We are all up in each other's business and we argue.

and we fight and it's fiery and we say things we don't mean, but then we all know we don't mean it. And so we come back together after it's sort of the pressure is let off the volcano. And then, you know, we apologize and say, didn't really mean it. know, versus my husband's family. It's just funny. One time I asked him, I was like, do you guys ever fight? Like, is there ever any fighting? You know, and so but I can also be pretty intense. And so you need people who are less intense because it kind of balances out that, you know, I just think. ⁓

It's good for us to be around people who are different. And I had a friend actually, sorry, this is probably just my tired brain being really creative and linking things together. But I had a friend who I went to college with at UD, who taught me about like, know there's so many, there's so much to our church. There's like, you could study for ages and continue to uncover saints or teachings or books or philosophies that, know, wisdom that

that is out there. So it's always funny to me that I continue to get surprised because I'm like, well, the church has been around for a really long time. So there's a lot of ideas out there. But she would talk to me about like the Ignatian discernment of spirits. And I kind of think it's sort of similar to that. like different, like one of the things, and I'm certainly not an expert in this area is, you know, thinking about when you feel sort of consolation or desolation, maybe wait until you feel some consolation.

You feel consolation to sort of make a decision. You feel peace about something. Or you feel kind of peace about something. And I think that that's interesting because I feel like people do that. Sometimes people just give you a sense of peace versus they may kind of rile you up. But my husband was really just to get more concrete. Because he was so steady and reliable and respectful. And I think because we had had so much history of

And it wasn't just my parents, you know, my sister and I were under the same pressures and so there was some some arguing and some fighting and some different personalities that really revved up against each other sort of in a friction way rather than like a smooth way. And so I just think it's good to think about that. And similarly, like when you watch someone as you're dating, like watch how they interact with other people, it actually teaches you a lot about, you know, sort of just what they're like, what their natural character is and you know.

Some people are more introverted, more extroverted, quieter, louder. All that stuff is okay. But I think when you watch someone and, you I can speak to women because I am one. I think when you when you see a man who can be sensitive to people, who's principled, who believes in something and stands by it and who can sort of I'm not saying my husband's perfect. We're all human, of course. But, you know, when you can see those good qualities and see someone really treat people well and be able to relate to people. For me, that was really important because I am a massive

extrovert, can probably tell by how much I've talked on this podcast. I love it. I am a talker. I need to be around people. I like to be around lots of friends. And so if I was around someone who like couldn't get along with a lot of people, that would be really difficult for me. I just don't know that we would sort of fit. Like I can't envision my life just having one person that I'm around all the time. Now I love my husband and and he's primarily the one that I'm with, especially like we're in the trenches with with caregiving. My dad's got pretty moderate dementia and it's he and I most of the time. But

when we get a day off, we want to be around people. We love to have dinner parties. We like to invite people over. We like to, and that's just, that works for us. So I think just pay attention to that with people that you meet. And I know it's hard, especially as a woman, to feel so much pressure, to feel like, I have to find the person or I have to make this work. And I can't speak to the pain of, you know, I certainly had a few people that I...

In high school, I thought, well, they're the one in my sort of young, immature high school brain and it broke my heart. And I can't speak to having that happen later on in your 20s and 30s where you're feeling sort of the pressure of like, I'm getting older and I want to have children and I want to build a life. But I guess I would just say, try to find people who have healthy relationships, be around them and try to have a little bit less of a tight, white knuckle hold on a relationship just because you have it. Because if there's

If God's sending you signals that this doesn't work for some reason, and part of those are just natural things, it's your personalities, like you're human. We're spiritual beings and we're physical beings and we're personalities, we're psychological beings. It's okay to listen to those things and let them guide you a little bit. I think he talks to us through all those things, not just, know, Dear God, here's 15th, give me a billboard. Thanks for the billboard, answer, done.

No, I wish it was that way. really do. There's so many things in my life I wouldn't have stressed over if that was the answer. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (59:08)

No, so good. What I hear you saying, like overall when it comes to the relationships is like just the importance of choosing the right spouse for you. And they're never going to be the perfect spouse for you. But like I hear you talking about complementarity. So certainly there's people you mix well with, you're better suited to than others. And it's important that we find someone like that, not just someone who we think is attractive or, you know, maybe we have fun with it, but it's like, do we compliment each other? I love that. And yeah, I think like maybe aside from like your own

growth and like virtue and healing. Um, the number one decision or the number one, yeah, really decision in your life, but especially as it relates to your relationships is who you marry. And so I love that advice. I think it's really, really timely. And I was like, I could talk to you forever. Hopefully we get a chance to sit down in person at some point. know we're on the side of the country, but um, but I just want to say thank you for being here and I appreciate all the wisdom you know, you've given us and I'm really hopeful that, um, you I know for a fact it's going to help thousands and thousands of people for.

tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people for years to come. And so thank you for ⁓ being here. And I want to give you the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you offer to that maybe younger you that's listening right now who feels pretty broken and knows that they want love, they want life to be better, but maybe they're not quite there yet. What final advice or encouragement?

Elizabeth Dorwart (1:00:27)

you give? know, I guess, I mean, can be trite and say, don't give up hope. But I guess I would just say ⁓ there is, it's a both and. There's so much in our church that teaches about the both and. And life, family life does not have to be perfect for it to be joyful. You will be surprised at how many things you find in life. And even if you remain single, if you're called the single life or you're called a religious life, you will be surprised by how many

funny moments happen and just tickle you and bring you joy and you think, now if you could told me 10 years ago I'd be in this moment and I'd A, still be standing and B, be laughing about it, I would call you crazy. And that really is true. There has been many moments as hard as it has been, as a slog as it has been, when I have just been surprised by hilarious things and joyful things that you never could have told me like.

you would be, that I would find delight in my father with dementia who just says the cutest things as he becomes more childlike sometimes. And that exists along with sometimes so much frustration that I can't even pull my hair out. And that's okay, that's life, you know? And you'll get there and keep going. ⁓ Cling to God if that is your journey of faith. And if you're not in a place of faith, truly, truly, truly, please hear this, no judgment. We are all on a.

We're all on our own journey and God, there are many, many, many, many, many ways to live your life. There are many ways that God can craft you into who he needs you to be. So just know that even if there's lack of trust, there's lack of belief, there's, you know, ⁓ a sense of like, that's not for me. That's okay too, because I'm not gonna try to proselytize, but truly your story is beautiful and you are beautiful, but your story's not done yet. So just keep on day by day and just keep hope.

because I promise you things will get better. I know that. I know that we have a loving God. And even if you feel like you're not comfortable with that, just know that there are good people out there and we're all struggling. And the more we can be open about our struggles, the more we can support each other through it and feel like this is a part of life and we can get through it together. You'll be happily surprised by the help that you find.

Joey Pontarelli (1:02:50)

That wraps up this episode. By the way, if you'd like to reach out to Liz, her email is in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you. And if this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

I Believed I Ruined Their Marriage

5-minute read.

This story was written by Monica at 26 years old. Her parents separated when she was 16. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

Growing up, "home" was a verbal boxing ring. My dad seemed to have a "bad day" at work every other day, and he took out everything on my mom and us kids. My mom started verbally fighting back, and before I knew it, every night, I would go straight to my room and cover my ears when dad got home. It felt like mom and dad were enemies. I never saw them be affectionate. They would take turns doing things with us kids (we never did anything as a family of 4). I got as involved in sports, school, and activities as possible so that I would not have to be home as much as I could! When they finally started living separated, I was RELIEVED at first because in my mind, the fighting would finally stop, but over the years, coming to terms with how messed up "home" was, it's been painful to accept and unpack!

HOW THE SEPARATION MADE HER FEEL

This was the main script that ran through my mind as a child (since I was old enough to have a memory): "If I were a good daughter, my parents would stop fighting.” I asked both my mom and my dad to stop fighting from about the first grade to the 10th grade! It felt like the more I asked, the more it was obvious that I did not matter. I felt invisible to my own parents, especially my dad. There were times that I asked him to stop fighting with mom, and HE'D yell at me as a response. So I got silent. I stopped asking for what I wanted and needed.

When I was 15 (less than a year before my parents finally separated), my dad told me that he and my mom were in love, best friends, and had a good marriage... until I was born. I'm the oldest of 2, so essentially, kids coming along was what made my parents' incompatibilities and differences (and their own trauma, both sets of my grandparents are divorced) come out. I internalized this blame for so long, believing that my existence was why my parents couldn't get along and that I ruined their marriage. At dark times, I wondered if there was any purpose or positivity in the fact that I was born. I wanted to grow up and get out of the house as an adult because "mom and dad will be happy again if I'm gone.”

HOW THE SEPARATION IMPACTED HER

#1: I put off dating for YEARS. I closed myself off from dating altogether in high school. Not a chance. Anybody that I had a sense could have been interested in me, I made sure to make it clear that I was NOT open to being pursued at all!! My plan: I was never getting married, so why date??? I didn't even acknowledge any desire for marriage whatsoever until I was 21 (3 years into college)! That was 5 years ago now! I lived for 2 whole decades having zero openness to getting married.

Now that I'm planning my wedding and preparing for the Sacrament of Matrimony and to start my family (which, I still can't believe is real, given what I've been through), which has blossomed to be the deepest desire of my heart, it's finally starting to sink in just how UNNATURAL this closing off I did for most of my life was. It's why I was so sad all the time. My model of marriage was so traumatic that I didn't even see it as possible for me until I actually got to know (and finally, after rejecting him the first time, giving him a chance) the person that I'm now going to marry! Being alone is nice for a moment, but this closing off that I did added suffering on top of the suffering of navigating life with this broken foundation.

#2: I became addicted to achievement, addicted to performance, and addicted to putting my identity in work... AND I became fiercely independent. My belief that I was invisible and that I did not matter manifested itself to not asking God for anything that I wanted. I had this limiting belief that wanting = selfish. Why ask God for friends? A job that I loved? A husband? Children?... I believed He did not care. This led to me not asking for what I wanted in dating relationships either.

#3: I dated in a way that wasn't normal. I found so much comfort in my first dating relationship with significant arms-length long distance. The fact that we could barely talk during the week and that we had to go 6 months without seeing each other, weirdly gave me so much comfort that my independence didn't have to be threatened.

#4: I swore I'd stay alone because I found more comfort being alone than I felt like I could handle being with anyone. The rejections and bad breakups that followed that first relationship had me questioning my identity and worth even more than my parents' dysfunction ever did, and I hit rock bottom. The only way I could turn my brain off to all the emotions and the pain was working out rigorously twice a day. It's a miracle that I didn't abandon the faith during this time, but I definitely did not want to go to a church for a bit (which feels scandalous to say as a devout Catholic).

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

Tell someone. Someone that is trustworthy.

The #1 mistake I have made in my life is doing things as alone as possible! Living on my own little island would involve as little vulnerability as possible. I understand the temptation, I really do. When your own parents don't make you feel safe, nobody feels safe. However, trust me when I say that doing this alone ADDS pain on top of pain!

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

I think the one thing I wish someone asked me much earlier in my life was: what's going on underneath the surface? I was such a high achiever academically and athletically in school... that nobody had a clue that my life was an emotional mess. Nobody I knew in high school or college would have ever have known how much I cried every single day when I came home from school. I'm not at all saying that if someone is a high achiever, pry about their life at home, but get to know them!

---

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Dating is a Mess: A NEW Way to Meet High Quality, Virtuous People | Emily Wilson Hussem: #169

Dating today feels exhausting. Confusing. And for people from divorced or dysfunctional families, it can feel even heavier — because one wrong choice doesn’t just mean heartbreak… it can feel like repeating your parents’ story.

In this episode, Joey sits down with Emily Wilson Hussem, Catholic author and co-founder of Sacred Spark, to talk about the most important factor in building a healthy marriage: choosing the right person — and why modern dating culture makes that decision harder than ever.

Emily shares what she’s learned from helping nearly 20 couples get married through her viral matchmaking posts, why you can’t “analyze” your way into certainty, and how real discernment only happens when you actually meet people in real life.

In this episode, we cover:

• Why choosing who you marry matters more than anything else

• The fear of repeating your parents’ mistakes (and how to move past it)

• How real discernment happens through in-person dating

• A NEW way to meet high quality, virtuous people

If you’re single, want marriage, but feel anxious, stuck, or afraid of choosing wrong — this episode is for you.

Download Sacred Spark

FREE Video Series: Dating 101

Visit SacredSpark.app

Get the Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide, The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

Watch the Documentary: Kenny

Watch the Trailer: Kenny (3:31 min)

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (01:07)

Welcome to the Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Pannarelli. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. If you're single and from a broken family like me, quick question for you. Do relationships and marriage make you anxious? Are you terrified of repeating your parents' story? Does the idea of picking the wrong person as your spouse freak you out?

If so, you're not alone. One of the solutions to these fears is making sure that you choose a good, virtuous spouse. That's by far the most important decision you can make if you want to build a healthy marriage and avoid repeating your parents' mistakes. But obviously that is not easy, especially given how messy the dating world is right now how hard it can be to find someone who's right for you. And because of all that, for so many people, dating feels so daunting and even hopeless. And if you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family,

it can feel even heavier because like I said, in the back of your mind, you might be thinking, if I choose wrong, I might repeat my parents' story. In this episode, we explore how to find the right person for you and a new way to meet that person. We also talk about why you can't analyze your way into certainty, how real discernment actually happens through in-person dating, and what it looks like to move from endless messaging on your phone to meaningful in-person connection.

My guest today is the amazing Emily Wilson-Hussein, a Catholic author and influencer whose Instagram matchmaking posts unexpectedly, get this, led to nearly 20 marriages and even children being born from those couples. She and her husband Daniel are now founders of Sacred Spark, a new app unlike anything you've seen designed to humanize dating and help people move off their phones into real life. And so if you've ever asked, how do I actually find someone solid and virtuous and how do I build something different than what I knew

Growing up, this conversation is for you. And with that, here's our chat.

Emily, welcome to the show. So good to have you here.

Emily Wilson Hussem (03:07)

It's

a delight to be here. Usually we're together in person, but it's so nice to see you from across America.

Joey Pontarelli (03:13)

Yeah, I know. I wish you could sit down in person. I wish Daniel could join us too, but I'm so grateful to be speaking to you and I want to dive right in. Your Instagram matchmaking posts are legendary. So obviously not everyone listening is aware of like how legendary they are and how the results that have come from them. what are they, what inspired them? Take me to that maybe first moment when you realized, wow, this is actually helping people. For sure.

Emily Wilson Hussem (03:36)

So I've been in ministry for a long time, just walking with people on the journey of faith, wherever they are on that journey of faith. And over the years, I've seen a real struggle for singles, like minded singles to connect with one another. So what the it was kind of a nudge, I feel like in faith from God to create a space where singles could meet each other. People use the word platform for for what I have and share. And I really hate that term. I'm not standing on a platform. I just have.

a place where I can reach people that the Lord has given me. So the question has always been Lord, what do want me to do with this place? What do you want me to do with this space? And in that moment, the Lord said, I want you to help singles connect with one another. So what I did was I made a simple post on Instagram. thought it was the silliest idea ever. I thought it was the most ridiculous thing. And that three people would comment. I wrote this as a matchmaking post. And if you're single and you want to write about yourself, what you're looking for, who you're looking to connect with, go ahead. So there's all these people in the first two days.

were over 6,900 entries on this one post that I had made. had friends texting me, I've heard about this matchmaking thing. What are you doing? And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm just trying to be obedient to God and see what happens. So it became this revolution online that I didn't anticipate. That was in August of 2023. So we'll come up on three years since the first one this August and

Just about, I'm really trying to keep up with the numbers, but just about 20 married couples have come from those posts. ⁓ In the last 90 days, there have been two babies born to those married couples who came from the matchmaking posts meetings. And it has been people of all ages, people all over the world, a couple in New Zealand, one couple from America to Spain, and even one couple in their sixties. One woman, she posted about herself and she could have said, this is for people in their twenties and thirties, but she said,

going to take a chance. I'm just going to go for it see what happens." She posted about herself. And her now husband was not on social media, but one, a gal who follows my ministry, she knew this man and she saw this woman's comment. She thought, my gosh, I think I know the guy for this woman. And she connected the two of them and they're now married. they have been legendary in the sense of, it's just me trying to be obedient to the Lord and really shows it with God all things are possible. And he wants us to think outside of the box when it comes to dating.

when it comes to relationships and when it comes to love.

Joey Pontarelli (06:04)

Hmm, so good. I guess one of the obvious questions like, why do you care so much? know you said, you know, you felt moved in this direction, but like, go a little bit deeper into that. Like, why do care so much about helping people find love, build marriages? Yeah.

Emily Wilson Hussem (06:16)

Yeah,

absolutely, it's a great question.

There are a couple of pieces of my heart that factor into this question. I think really solid marriages really just help build up the culture, build up the world and build up the church. think when strong marriages, right? And I know you speak to this a lot, the importance of this and ⁓ strong marriages, they really can impact communities. If you think of real, beautifully strong couples and the mentorship that they have offered people and their home and what a beautiful place it has been.

that really changes cultures and communities. Along the way, some of my closest friends are amazing single women. Shout out to the single women and men listening to this episode right now. Single women who really ache to find a wonderful partner, a wonderful man to build a life with, and they just can't seem to find him. And I've walked with them on this journey for many years now. Some of them in their 30s, some in their 40s. Many years now of the ache.

and the longing for a good, holy, virtuous spouse. And this, guess, in a way was my attempt to say, okay, maybe I can help find a man for my friends, or maybe there's just many men and women out there just like them longing to connect with a solid, rooted person. So what part can I play in this? And I guess that's why, where my care comes from. Like I really want to do the Lord's work and...

help people who really have this deep longing for connection find that connection.

Joey Pontarelli (07:45)

And what I've seen too, especially in the young people that I work with, is that they all want love. They might be afraid of it, there might be a lot holding them back from it, but they want love, and they even want marriage. But like you said, so many feel hopeless because they can't find the right person for them. And so, you you already touched on that, but say a little bit more, like how real is the struggle for young people today? And maybe not even young people, for everyone.

Emily Wilson Hussem (08:10)

Yeah, wouldn't would you agree when someone if someone said to you dating culture these days is a dumpster fire. Would you agree with them?

Joey Pontarelli (08:17)

Yeah, I would say secular dating culture. Yeah.

Emily Wilson Hussem (08:20)

For sure. Would you say that about like Christian or Catholic dating culture as well or would your answer be different?

Joey Pontarelli (08:25)

I would say maybe it's a little bit better, but still a mess.

Emily Wilson Hussem (08:28)

Yeah,

totally. And I think that ache is so real because the longing is there to find a good person, but it really dating culture is a disaster. And there's a lot of reasons for that. Right. A of really painful reasons for people really trying to find a good virtuous person. The breakdown of communication. Unbelievable. Right. Nobody really talks to each other anymore. There was so many people don't know how to express their feelings, express their wants, communicate and say, I'm not interested in pursuing a romantic relationship for you. And I just don't want to lead you on.

People just have a hard time saying that period, the breakdown of communication, as well as the fear of commitment. The fear of commitment, as I know you talk about on your podcast, the fear of commitment is so real for so many different reasons based on our own experiences as young people looking at marriage or looking at love, looking at relationships, we can fear commitment because we think commitment is a horrible thing, or we can fear commitment because of the next best thing, culture, right? Our culture is always offering us this menu of people

this, you know, like the next best thing is always around the corner. Someone I saw someone write recently, the grass is always greener in the next DM. And I was like, my goodness, that speaks so much to the culture today, because you could be in this great relationship. then another man DMS you he slides into your DMS. And you think, well, I'm having a little bit of a hard time in my relationship. Now, would things be better if I just ended this and went with this man, when the reality is that all relationships have troubles. And so I think those two

pain points are so real in the dating culture of nobody knows how to communicate and everyone's afraid of committing to something, especially for life, which makes dating very, very challenging. The search for love, very, challenging in this day and age.

Joey Pontarelli (10:11)

I couldn't agree more and I heard someone say recently too, there's kind of this animosity, I don't know if animosity is the right word, this distrust, this suspicion between men and women right now. Something happening in our culture where we think that, to sound kind of skeptical, the guys are thinking like, women just want me for a paycheck, they just want me for this and that to provide them a home, whatever, security, whatever. That's what some people would say.

And then, you on the other end, the women are thinking like, well, men just want to use me for my beauty and my body, like whatever. And then there is this kind of rift where we were really meant to be each other's helpmates. We were meant to be companions. JBT calls it like your life's companion, like so beautiful. And yet it's come down to this thing of like, well, I'm going to protect, I have to protect myself from you and in so many ways. And so I think that's another thing, at that I've seen that's underneath this kind of hesitancy, even pursue love. And even though we desire it.

So I'm curious your thoughts on that, before I throw it over to you, the other thing I see in this aposlet with me coming from a broken family, serving people who come from broken families, parents divorced, all that stuff, is that there's just this huge fear of potentially repeating your parents' mistakes through your parents' story. And there is data that says you come from a divorced family two to three times more likely to get divorced yourself.

So people feel that fear. That's probably the number one fear that our audience feels. And so yeah, I'm curious your thoughts on both of those things. Maybe the skepticism between males and females in our culture and then also this just deep seated fear of like, I just don't want to become like my parents. So maybe it's just better to not do it at all.

Emily Wilson Hussem (11:40)

Yeah, absolutely. I think the skepticism between men and women, it's so true. It's very real. And as I've been in the dating culture, right, with my matchmaking posts and really accompanying singles along the way, I've really encouraged singles to stop playing this blame game. So many people want to say it's the men's fault. So many people want to say it's the women's fault. It's a collective struggle for all singles, right?

And what I encourage singles as I walk with them in this is to say, what part have I played in this mess? Right? Have I been a person who's been terrible with my communication? Have I been the person who's really just brought my baggage in ways that hurt a lot of people rather than dealing with it as is appropriate and then jumping into the dating pool? Right? So the skepticism between men and women is a very deep pain point.

that is exacerbated by people pointing fingers, right? Instead of saying, how can we all heal? How can we really come to a place where it's not like, you're the problem, you're the problem, but how can we say there's a big problem here and we all need to gather together to change it and fix it? I hear from a lot of young men who are, you know, the messaging and the culture from women have been like, don't talk to us.

We don't want to talk to you. Don't lift our bags. Don't open doors for us. So they don't do those things. Like don't talk to us. Right. And you know, I'm painting with a broad brush here. So then they're like, OK, I won't talk to you. And then the women are like, men never ask us out on dates. Men never approach us at events. Men never do these things. And the men are like, you told us to stop doing things. And so there's this dynamic that's just like, my gosh. And then men are thinking women say like, ⁓

you know, a man who's forward and forthright. he's such a creep. So men are trying to find this balance line of like, how do I be forthright, but not act like a creep. And it's this whole game. It's this whole overthinking mess that if from a woman of faith, my standpoint that God never intended it to be right. So stepping back, right. And we can get to this a little bit later on through a sacred spark, which I know I'll talk about. We created a, just a resource called dating 101.

Because so many people think, how do I even date? How do I even, you know, get past this animosity or skepticism between men and women and actually know how to approach a woman? How do you be receptive as a woman? All these different kinds of things. And to your second question, coming from a broken family and that fear of commitment. So my mom comes from a very, very, very dysfunctional family, a family that had just problems as deep and wide as the ocean. And.

She was one of those people who decided deep within her soul, I'm not going to carry this on. Like this stops with me. And I'm sure you've talked with about that with people here on your show. She decided this stops with me and she had to believe in her heart that she could create with the Lord's help, a family that looked entirely different than the family that she grew up in.

that really came from being discerning about who she was dating and being really discerning about who she chose to marry because she could have taken those patterns into her life. Her father was a really, really rough, abusive man, and she could have in her life decided to repeat those patterns and say, this is what I'm used to. This is what I know. But she decided I'm going to look for the very antithesis of the way that I was raised.

And she chose my father who's such a kind and giving and faithful and loving man. And I think that that choice, right? That's a very difficult choice to say the buck stops with me. I am not repeating this. This ends here comes with a lot of for her, a lot of prayer, a lot of discernment, a lot of very hard decisions, but she

did what she set out to do with the Lord's help. And she created a beautiful, loving family that looks nothing like the family that she grew up in. I have three siblings, three girls and a boy in my family. are as tight as could be, as loving and caring and warm a home environment as you could possibly imagine. And my mom's story, I really believe for all your listeners out there, I hope that anybody listening who believes

There's no hope for me to create a beautiful, warm, loving home environment family. My mom is someone who you look at and you say like, wow, those patterns don't have to be repeated. And I can, there is hope to create a family that's beautiful and holy and a marriage that's beautiful and strong for everyone. And so much of it, she didn't know how to do it. But as a woman of faith, really, she says, she all tells everybody, I invited the Holy Spirit in every step of the way. I had no idea how to create a happy home environment.

I had no idea what that looked like. I didn't know how you cultivate it. And every step of the way as a woman of faith, she just relied on the Lord. Teach me how to do this. Holy Spirit, come into my parenting decisions. Holy Spirit, come into the way I build out this home with my husband. Teach me how to honor my husband. And the Lord was faithful to her every step of the way. And she's like a lighthouse for so many people who don't believe that it's possible for them.

Joey Pontarelli (17:03)

Okay, real talk, if you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people and it was really helpful for me personally. In the guide, he breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make, like under eating.

overstressing or focusing too much on the scale and it gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use that you can implement today. And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never going to get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally. So good Emily. I love that. And I think that's the solution. That's what we need to hear is that other people like us have done it. So you can too. And I love the focus on God's grace. I think there's a temptation for us to think that our lives and us

are the result of just nature or nurture. But I've heard it said that there's two other components as well, which is your will, the choices you make, and God's grace, which is for everyone listening who doesn't know, it's God's life inside of you helps you to do good, avoid evil. And so, yeah, we do have nature, we do have nurture, but we also have our wills we have God's grace. you know, taking all those things into account, looking at your mom's story, you can build a family different than what you had, what's the whole saying, you even if a...

If you didn't come from a healthy family, healthy family can come from you.

Emily Wilson Hussem (18:24)

Absolutely. I really want all your listeners to really believe that and I know you know how I talked to my mom in her 20s she Who knows if she would have said that's baloney. I would never believe it Like it's not possible right and I so get coming from a horrible environment that that skepticism or that cynicism or just that jadedness of it could never happen for me and it's true with God's grace with proper healing with

choices, the choices that you make, is totally possible for a beautiful family to come from you, whoever out there is listening, it is possible for a beautiful family to come from you, from your heart. Is it easy? No. But is it possible? Absolute.

Joey Pontarelli (19:11)

And going back to what we said before, that's probably the biggest fear that our audience struggles with is like the fear of becoming maybe like mom or dad or repeating the dysfunction that they grew up in. But their biggest desire is to build something different. And so in order to arrive there, you talked about healing, I know it's another conversation for another time. But a big piece of it, of course, is building a healthy relationship. And by far, as you well know,

the number one most important thing you can do when it comes to building a healthy marriage is choosing a virtuous spouse. So that brings us to Sacred Spark. But before we dive into the details of that, I'm curious, you mentioned that the dating world is so broken even in the religious Catholic Christian world. I'm curious, if you could change it with the snap of your fingers, what would you make it? What would be a thriving, healthy, beautiful, ideal dating world?

Emily Wilson Hussem (20:02)

That's a really great question. I think a thriving, healthy, beautiful dating world would be one in which people are actually taught about masculinity and femininity in light of God's design for it. There has been so much confusion, right? One thing, one document that changed my life as a Catholic woman, it's an encyclical called On the Dignity and Vocation of Women by John Paul II. It is life changing. Have you read it?

Joey Pontarelli (20:30)

I have him.

Emily Wilson Hussem (20:31)

is amazing. It's available on the Vatican website for anyone to read. used to make copies of it. It's part of my testimony of why I'm sitting here right now is that encyclical. picked it up after church one day from a woman's library. She had died and she donated her whole library to the parish and I picked up a copy and it changed me forever. really understanding, I think that what would heal the dating culture is if men and women really believed in the pit of their souls

that women bring special strengths to a relationship and men bring special strengths to a relationship. And it is not a contest of who is stronger, who brings more, who does this, who does that, but the feminine strength of nurturing, of caring, of warmth, of openness, so powerful, Men's protection, provision.

so far beyond financial, right? And I hear that all the time when men saying, well, on the first date, every woman asks me how much money I make and I'm totally sick of it, Provision, providing protection, also warmth, also openness in their own way, in the masculine way. A couple of years ago, there was this beautiful image that came out of Hurricane Harvey that I show in talks, especially for young people. And it was this man in knee deep water and he was carrying a woman like,

to safety wherever she was going. His boat was behind him and there was this woman and this baby was just laying on her chest sleeping in the midst of utter chaos. This baby is sleeping on her chest. The image is so beautiful. It's so poignant. And I really show that to young people to talk about masculinity and femininity in the sense of there's a lot going on here that shows the strengths of these two people, right?

This man protecting and providing, what is he protecting and providing her from this hurricane, but protecting her and providing safety, right? This refuge of safety for her in the masculine way. This woman is providing this refuge and safety for this baby in this moment. Not every woman will become a mother, but showing that nurturing safety that she can bring. These two strengths, we've forgotten them. They've gone to the wayside. People are so confused. And so I think what would heal is if people step back to say,

what special things do women bring? What special things do men bring? And how can we truly get back to that complementarity of the way God's designed it to be? Okay, I'm going to throw the question back to you. If you could snap your finger and heal and you could think of, know, a way, my answer was bigger than kind of one way, a way to heal the dating culture, what would your answer be?

Joey Pontarelli (23:07)

I think when we were last together in person, we talked about this a little bit, but exposing young people, especially single dating young people, engaged to really healthy marriages and families. And it doesn't, that's just like one piece of it. Obviously there's other things that would need to be done as well. I think, especially with my background, was just, I was so afraid of love. I was so afraid of marriage, even though I really wanted it. But seeing my parents' marriage fall apart, I was like, I just really don't want to go through that pain. And so I thought the best

safest route was to avoid it altogether. I think to see us as I learned that actually is very dangerous. Another topic for another time. But yeah, I think the thing that really changed my mind and my heart was seeing really beautiful couples, beautiful. There's two families in particular. think of all the time, the Cheethams and the colors and my goodness, just, but mom and dad loved each other so much and they would flirt and it was romantic. And even when they disagreed, it was respectful. They were

really loving to their kids, but they weren't their best friends. They were responsible parents, they had boundaries, and being in their homes, there was just such a peace. Like you could just literally feel it. And so seeing that contrasting against what a lot of people I'm sure can fill in the blanks of just a lot of dysfunction, conflict being handled so poorly, there would be yelling, just the total opposite, right? The total breakdown of any sort of healthy relationship. I think that's one of the keys because I think Jason Everett says this a lot, but it's

you know, so much more is caught than taught. And so I think you need to be like immersed in it. So I think that would be part of my solution. I know I've heard you say that too, that I'm man, I wish we could have like a come and see sort of like weekend with families. And so I think that's a big part of it is that those virtues, you don't really learn them from a book as good as that is. And we have friends who've written those books, you've written those books, it's beautiful. But as good as that is, you actually learn it by being in the presence of people and seeing those virtues and then trying to live them out themselves.

Emily Wilson Hussem (25:00)

parents of your friends or were those people at your church?

Joey Pontarelli (25:03)

Yeah, great question. mainly at church. Yeah. ⁓

Emily Wilson Hussem (25:06)

think that's, that's what I joke about. And your listeners might not, might've heard me say that might not have, but yes. And in Catholicism, right? If you're going to go be a priest or religious sister, you go to a formal common seat. And if you're going to go be a sister, you go with them and you live their life and you live the rhythm of their life. And you see, this life for me? And so I've joked about doing that for a family and coming for not just a day, but like a week or two weeks to be with our family.

and see what it is like. What is it like to have children who are seven, five, and one? It's pretty chaotic. after a week or two weeks with us, you'd really be able to discern, right? Is this something that I think God is calling me to? I think that would be an amazing thing. on the vision board for my life. Obviously, you'd have to vet great families and all these, there would be a lot of things that you would have to get in order to do something like that. But I think it would, ⁓ help a lot with that for ⁓ people to see healthy, wonderful, happy, holy families.

But also discern is this the path God wants me on specifically, or does being in this environment just make me want to run and flee for the hills? So maybe this isn't for me. I think it could do a lot of good, but we'll see if it comes to fruition one day.

Joey Pontarelli (26:16)

No, I'd love to work with you on that one day. Maybe there's some sort of collaboration or future because we, we started to pilot. won't go into this much. We started to pilot a program that we were calling the school of love where we would pair up, you know, young people, especially came from broken families with healthy marriages and families and we had to put a pause on it because it was just much more difficult to pull off than we originally thought. But I, but I think there's a real need and I'd love to work with you guys on that. Maybe someday in the future. We don't have the capacity now either, but yeah, so good. And yeah, yeah, we'll see where the future.

brings but okay so just to kind of resurface the conversation again everyone we're talking about how you know we all were afraid of love especially you come from a broken family because we don't want to repeat our parents mistakes but we also want love we deeply want that and so the number one thing we can do to build really healthy a healthy marriage is to choose the right spouse but it's really difficult to find good people that is where sacred spark comes in and so Emily like what is it what do you guys offer and maybe more specifically like what makes you unique than maybe everything else that's out there

This episode is sponsored by Black Zone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 430 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that.

Horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado, and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary.

or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Blackstone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it.

Emily Wilson Hussem (28:17)

Yeah. So as my matchmaking post went on and on and I, you know, continued to do them. So many people were saying, can you categorize this by age? Can you categorize this by region? Can you categorize this by single moms? And I was like, there's too many categorizations. Let's make this official. And there were a lot of problems. Well, there was a lot of fruit. There were a lot of problems. If you were not following someone, you could not like direct message them. I was the only person who could see all the comments. were thousands and thousands.

But you could only see a subset of the comments if you were not me. So my husband and I, my husband who has a background in tech, he moved to America in 2015 and his first job here was a job at a technology startup. And we thought, well, what are the offerings for Catholic singles or we're as Catholics, we want to help Catholic singles in the church. We have a heart for all singles, but what are the options for single Catholics and how can we help them to meet? And so we just got going.

on sacred spark. So sacred spark is a, we don't call it a dating app because you don't date on an app. Really what it is, is a connections app. We're just connecting people, whether that's in the same city or my husband and I are from many, many thousands of miles apart. We dated from California to the Netherlands in Europe. That's a whole story for another day. A connections app to connect amazing Catholic singles and bring them together to build these amazing ⁓ marriages and if God wills families. a couple of things that,

are just hard about dating apps is really feeling like you're shopping on Amazon. You're just looking at a picture. You're deciding, do I like this picture? Do I not like this picture? You know, shopping on Amazon is not how we want connecting with amazing humans made in the image and likeness of God to be. So there are a few ways that we have made it hopefully to highlight the humanity of the person. can't do it entirely like you're meeting someone in person, but we want to help you meet in person. So you have to on sacred spark, you make an audio introduction. And I just think that

⁓ Being able to introduce yourself is so important. Hearing what someone says, right? And the funny thing is that on Secret Spark, ⁓ people go all different directions with this. Some people tell their favorite jokes, right? ⁓ I'll get to matchmaking in a moment, but I'm a matchmaker for my friend on the app, and so I can hear these men's introductions. And some of them, talk about what they love or who they are whatever it is. Some of them make jokes from their favorite show. If you just want to make jokes from the office, like the office is your jam.

or like Lord talk about Lord of the Rings if that's your jam, you just go for it. And the right person for you will be like, this is funny. This is interesting. Let's connect, you know? ⁓ And then there's a video option so you can make a video. And it's amazing to see how these people make their videos. Just like if you love cooking, you you're you're just cooking in the kitchen and you're like, I am Emily. I'm making my favorite chicken parmesan. Actually, I'm allergic to chicken, so I wouldn't be making chicken parmesan, but I'm making my favorite recipe.

And this is just me and I love cooking and this is what I love. There was a man who brought the video into his woodworking. He's a carpenter. So he's in his woodworking shop and this just brings him to life. I will. This is my carpentry shop. These are the things that I'm working on to really in the ways that we can bring people to life on a dating app. So you don't feel like you're shopping. You're looking at this man, seeing what he loves, seeing you like bringing you into his space and going from there. So those are a couple of the humanizing features that we want to make people realize.

This is we're not shopping for our products. These are people that we want you to connect.

Joey Pontarelli (31:40)

So good. then from there, once you maybe connect with them, there could be, is there direct messaging or how does it work?

Emily Wilson Hussem (31:48)

Direct messaging by the time this episode release we should have our video feature up so you can video call with them right within the app. We just want you to connect and go on a date as quickly as possible rather than this back and forth of like what is this? what are we doing? texting, texting, texting. No, no, no, we don't need to text and text and text some more. We just want you to go in person, whether it's ice cream, whether it's a coffee, whatever it is, just get out there and meet each other in person that we are the avenue.

for that, not just long-term communication that leads to nothing.

Joey Pontarelli (32:19)

love that, I remember Jason Edwards saying that, you know, imagine you're holding two seeds in your hand, and you don't know if the seeds are apple seeds or pear seeds, let's say. And he said, you you could bait it endlessly, you can come up with all the different reasons, this one's the apple, this one's the pear, you can look it up online, I'm sure, but at the end of the day, he said, you just have to put it in the ground and let it grow, and see what comes of it. And I think that's so true for, like this, I think it's so.

Yeah, it's so tempting right to overanalyze and to dissect and and I remember him saying, yeah, just like when something's healthy, you just like let it grow. And I think you have to give it a chance to grow to begin with.

Emily Wilson Hussem (32:57)

Absolutely and in dating right it's so important to remember that some of those seeds will become a little sprout and then you're like Okay, it didn't work. I met a girl last week at an event and she said I'm on Secret Spark and I went on three dates with a guy and then we just both realized like it wasn't the thing for us but it was a really positive thing we had positive dates and we just weren't the right fit for each other and I said and so you just you feel just like hopeful that your fit is out there and she's like Yeah, it was really positive and so so much of dating right?

is and this fear of commitment, lack of human communication is I want to figure out if this person is the one before I go on a first date with them. And it doesn't happen that way. In an instantaneous culture, let's say you want to learn more about some conflict that has happened over time, right? There's some war that happened way back in the day and you go and you can just look it up on Wikipedia and you go and you find out every single thing, every single battle that happened, every single correspondence happened in one minute. You know, all this information.

We want people to be the same way. I want to punch in this man's name, right? And know every single thing he's been through, all his trauma, all his stuff. I want to know it all because my brain has been conditioned to Google search something or Wikipedia something and know everything. And we have to take a step back to look at our lives and reality to say, people aren't like this. I can't Wikipedia someone and know everything they've been through. It is something that happens over time.

Is that frustrating in an instantaneous culture? Yes. know, Joey, for you, you and your wife, I imagine your relationship as you, you know, dealt with your own fears and all of the stuff in your life. was this learning to trust one another instead of this instantaneous like, everything's healed, right?

Joey Pontarelli (34:38)

Yeah, it still is. even, you know, even just different layers and chapters within marriage, I would 100 % agree. Yes.

Emily Wilson Hussem (34:44)

And it is this, talk about this, it's more like a blooming of a flower, right? If we're going for the seed analogy, watering the seed that sometimes becomes a sprout and it's not the right thing for you, or it might grow into an oak tree, right? If we're looking at this, not making everything so instantaneous, it's like the blooming of a flower. don't microwave trust. don't put it in the instant pot. like, oh, I trust this person fully, completely. It is like a flower.

that blooms and what does it need? needs sunshine, It needs sunshine and needs water. needs all these healthy things for it to open up. And that's really like vulnerability with someone else. It's really like trust with someone else. is this slow opening up that happens. doesn't just burst open. It's like, boom, like a firework. is a slow, beautiful process. I'm sure you could

You know, speak to that for your own life, the slow, beautiful process of learning to trust your wife and opening up to her and realizing that there can be a good love for you in this life.

Joey Pontarelli (35:46)

Totally. it's definitely, it's definitely tempting, you know, like with everything else in our culture, like you hit a button on Amazon, something shows up at your door in two days. It's like magic. It's crazy. It does not work with love. It's just different category. That's great. You can get your package in a few days that you're not gonna, it's exactly like you said, it's more like farming. It just takes time to see the fruit of your labor. And I think it's a really beautiful thing we need to remind ourselves of. And on that note though, I wanted to say, know we're close to the end of our time together, but I just wanted to say that I think sometimes people will think, well, I'll be fine without it.

or maybe there's like resistance, because like maybe the crowd is going towards like this dating platform is kind of what I call it. know, Sacred Spark, there's like, wanna kind of keep doing my own thing. And I guess the question to anyone who's in that category, I would say like, how is that working? And not in like a mean or skeptical way, but I was like, is it working? Like, have you met really good quality people? Are you going on dates or are you just maybe swiping? Are you actually like getting in the game essentially, or is this something that, ⁓ you know, it's just a thought, a fantasy, something that you're not actually

jumping into and so the thing I love about the focus behind everything you guys are doing at Sacred Sport is like you said, you want them to go on the date, you want them to actually be in person and get to know each other that way, not just, to know the person, not just know about the person, very different.

Emily Wilson Hussem (37:00)

Yeah, absolutely. I have ⁓ a sweet, amazing gal. She married my cousin. They got married when they were 38 and 40. And what she says is that like the best thing that she did was continue to put in the work to try to find this man who was my cousin. He's amazing. I can't believe it. I remember so many conversations where he said, I don't I don't know that I'll ever become a dad. I think that dream, you know, has died for me. And now I see him with his two small children. It's greatest thing ever.

But she says what I did right was continue to quote unquote put myself out there, which people really hate because somebody really you need to put yourself out there more and you're like, I'm trying. And she said, I put myself out there in like discerning right in wisdom. I took breaks when I really needed to. When I felt that fatigue, when I felt like this is really not working and I need to take a step back from the apps or just from, you know, unquote, putting myself out there. I need to take breaks and I need to rest and I need to recharge.

⁓ She said that's what I did right and she said that's what got me to like the perseverance and the stamina in order to keep putting myself out there to find my cousin who's an amazing man and she said had you told me I would have been a first-time bride at 38 she wrote about she wrote an excerpt for my social media for me to share with women had you told me I'd be a first-time bride at 38 I would have been utterly horrified. She said when I was young she said but to know that this was the man

For me, I would have been absolutely thrilled to wait until I was 38 in order to find him. Basically is what she shared. And so I think taking those breaks to rest and recharge is important. That's good. yourself out there and realizing, and this is what also what I want your listeners to hear, because I sit in a home that I share with a man who was from another country, right? So many times we box in how we think that our love story is going to go.

and how we think it's going to be and where we think we're going to meet the person. I'm going to meet the person. live in Dallas and that person has to be in Dallas. Don't be afraid to think outside of the box and don't be afraid if you're a person of faith to, to not put God in a box and say, this person doesn't have to live in my city. Right. And that's the beautiful thing about secret spark. Lots of people are connecting from states away, any states away. And it's a wonderful thing to say for long distance can work for the right person. And if I put in a type and in a box and I, I limit

this this idea of what this person where they where they need to live and how they need to be. I that word limiting I'm limiting God if you're a person of faith or I'm limiting you know what the possibilities could be for me. So never put it in a box and always take those breaks but continue to put that effort in to see what could come of those.

Joey Pontarelli (39:37)

I love it. Yeah, I I love your nuanced answer and I hope no one misunderstood me before because I yeah definitely agree It's it's hard. It can be really hard I'm in many ways grateful that I'm not dating right now because I think it is like I have friends and siblings who are in this world right now and it's a difficult thing but I love your approach of yeah, just you might need to take a little bit of a break just like you know your body needs a break from working out you maybe need a relational break from going out but it's so good and I think one of the things that came to mind before we close down here is when you're looking for a job

There might be a job in your city, in your town, in maybe the state or maybe the next state over, that would be a great fit for you. Emily, it's tailor-made for you, but you don't know it exists. It's not there. You don't know it, you're not aware of it. And so the way I see Sacred Spark in so many ways, it's like you're just connecting people. You're making them accessible to each other. And so that's why I'm such a big fan of just give it a shot. What do you have to lose? Really, nothing. If you play-

Emily Wilson Hussem (40:34)

you

Joey Pontarelli (40:36)

And what I was getting after is like, you play the tape forward of how things have gone in your past, like how will this end up in another five or 10 years? Not to scare anyone or make you afraid at all, but just to think, is it worth maybe trying something new? ⁓ That's maybe a question I'll leave everyone with. But Emily, I know we gotta jump, but feel free to comment on any of that and then imagine someone who wants to give this a try. like, okay, I'm willing to put myself out there. They're feeling a little brave, they're scared, that's okay. What are the next steps? Like tactically, I know this might.

the user workflow might change in the future, but what do they do? Imagine they download the app on their phone or they go on their computer. What does that look like?

Emily Wilson Hussem (41:11)

Yeah, so it is only on. ⁓ It's only an app, right? Okay, you can go on the App Store or Google Play, can download sacred spark. I really just encourage anybody who wants to download and see what happens just to be yourself. Don't overthink it. We want people to just have fun with it to be authentic to rather than fear the process actually enjoy the process of talking about yourself.

Talk about what you love. Talk about what you're passionate about. Bring someone into your life. The right person for you will be like, this person is awesome and amazing. And like you said, you don't know who lives even in your city. My sweet friend Jenny, she was on Sacred Spark the first week and she has now been dating for a couple of months her new boyfriend who she met on Sacred Spark and the Phoenix Catholic young adult culture. A lot of people know each other. A lot of people. Nobody knew this man.

People are like, where was this man hiding? Where was he? He never went to anything. He was just a faithful Catholic who lived in Phoenix who never went to anything. And now they have found each other and it's just an amazing thing. So just have fun with it. Enjoy the process. You can download it and just see what happens. We got a lot of people in their twenties and thirties, some people in their forties. ⁓

Even a couple of people in their 50s, the gal I'm matchmaking for, she's in her 30s. And so it's in a variety of ages. And we want you to just go for it and have fun and highlight who you are and who God made you to

Joey Pontarelli (42:32)

So

good, I know we could talk so much more Emily but it's so good to be with you and the one thing I would just encourage everyone to do as well like you said before just doubling down on this is that I heard a woman say she went on like a hundred dates which is kind of insane but she learned so much through doing that you know not everyone has to do that of course but she learned like the type of man that she wanted to be with she was able to tell pretty quickly like this is not a good fit for me so this whole idea I would just encourage people like quantity has a quality of its own and so it's not a bad idea to

to kind of a high volume and maybe for some people that's five or 10 or 15, 20 dates. know maybe sounds like a lot, but man, you will have so much more wisdom and know more of what you're looking for after that process than before. So if you want love, I would encourage you to check it out and see if it might be a tool to help you potentially find the right person for you. But Emily, always a pleasure. If people wanna find you online, where do they do that? We'll link to all this in the show notes, including that letter from JP too.

Emily Wilson Hussem (43:25)

Yeah, so you can download Sacred Spark if you look up Sacred Spark in either of those app stores. You can find me online if you Google search Emily Wilson. I've written seven books. My new one, Sincerely Stoneheart. Some of your readers are sorry listeners might have read. And then you can find EmilyWilsonMinistries.com everything else.

Joey Pontarelli (43:42)

Awesome, so good. Yeah, really grateful for you and for Daniel, the good you're doing in the world. Just giving you the final word, what final encouragement or advice would you give to everyone listening, especially those listening who want love but they're afraid of it because of the dysfunction that they come from.

Emily Wilson Hussem (43:56)

There is hope for you. Anybody listening out there, I want you to hear the word hope. I want you to let it, you know, just come into every cell in your body. As a woman of faith, I believe there's hope in Jesus. I believe that in the dating culture, there is hope. And I meet so many singles who are looking for an amazing person with so many different backgrounds, so many different upbringings, but they want a healthy, wonderful, beautiful relationship. If that's what you're seeking, there are so many people out there seeking that alongside you.

There is hope for you. Believe it and know it and know of my prayers for you.

Joey Pontarelli (44:35)

Sacred Spark has so many unique features like their matchmaker function where can actually invite a friend or family member to be your wingman or wingwoman on the app. Super unique. But the main benefit I'd say of Sacred Spark is that you'll actually be able to meet people like you who value what you value in a new way that's not transactional but deeply human. And so I highly recommend just downloading the app just to check it out. By the way, if you hate it, you can always delete it. In fact, I spent years as the COO of a startup

tech company. And one of the things I learned through that experience about any new app or technology is that the best way to learn it and to experience the benefits of it is simply by signing up and clicking around the app, literally just playing with it. It's that simple. And so at the publishing of this episode, you can actually join Sacred Spark for free. That might change in the future. And so just click on the link in the show notes and download the app so you can check it out. Again, I just encourage you to click around and see what it's like. And if you hate it, you can always delete it.

Now, if you're not ready for that, I recommend watching Emily's free video series called Dating 101. There's also a link to that in the show notes. With that, this episode is a wrap. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. And in closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning.

but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Why Having Divorced Parents as an Only Child Feels Heavy

7-minute read.

Regardless of family size, there’s just no way around the fact that divorce is extremely difficult for the children. But there is a particular challenge in having divorced parents as an only child. 

Though siblings may steal your clothes and spill your secrets, having them can also help mitigate the effects of growing up with divorced parents and therefore preserve the child and parent relationship.

Siblings (even just one) provide a built-in community that helps with the burden of having divorced parents. You have someone in your exact same situation that can support you in the difficulties that arise and the negative effects of growing up with divorced parents. The camaraderie between siblings is like soldiers who are in the trenches together, the shared experience strengthens their relationship, which in turn creates a support system that alleviates the suffering they are going through. 

In this article, we will explore the specific problems that you may face with divorced parents as an only child, the effects of growing up with divorced parents, the effects of divorce on the child and parent relationship, as well as simple strategies you can implement to help cope with the pain and problems stemming from your parents’ divorce. If you’ve ever thought: “I have no siblings and I am lonely,” know that you are not alone, and we want to help you feel accepted and supported as a child of divorce.

What It’s Like Living With Divorced Parents as an Only Child

One of the most powerful comforts when going through a difficult time is community. You can prove this simply by noticing the existence of support groups for pretty much any challenge you can think of: a cancer diagnosis, bereavement, drug addiction, etc. Siblings often provide that as you endure the effects of growing up with divorced parents together. However, having divorced parents as an only child means no one can quite understand or relate to your specific situation. Furthermore, you alone have to bear the struggles that come with having divorced parents and the strain on the child and parent relationship.

You alone have to handle your parents’ fights, tension, and potentially even emotional unraveling as they go through the destruction of their marriage. You alone have to manage your own emotions as you watch your family fall apart and potentially face the introduction of step-parents and siblings into your life. You alone have to navigate difficult conversations and the dispersing of holidays and your time between both parties.

This can feel heavy, especially if you feel like you have no one to turn to. The loneliness and isolation of having divorced parents as an only child might even feel unbearable at times. You may think, “I have no siblings and I am lonely.” But know this: you are not alone. Restored is here to support and encourage you in this difficult time and give you resources to cope with the negative effects of growing up with divorced parents. Furthermore, you can always look for a mentor in your community–an adult you know and trust. If you’re not sure where to start looking for someone to talk to,consider asking a youth group leader, pastor, or even guidance counselor to point you in the right direction.

The Hidden Effects of Growing Up With Divorced Parents Alone

Though it may not be often talked about, going through your parents’ divorce can be traumatic and devastating. It can also seriously damage the child and parent relationship. This is especially true if you have divorced parents as an only child. 

If you are an only child, these are some of the potential hidden effects of growing up with divorced parents: 

• You feel lonely, isolated, and that there is no one for you to turn to.

• You are overwhelmed by the difficulties that come from your parents’ divorce.

• You feel disconnected from your parents.

• You feel like you can’t trust or confide in anyone.

• You feel that love and marriage are impossible and never last.

• You turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms that cause more problems.

• You feel that something is wrong with you.

While divorce is largely normalized, the truth is that it is incredibly difficult for the children, especially if you are an only child. Restored exists to help you heal from the trauma of your parents’ divorce so you can break the cycle. Healing is possible for you, no matter how broken you feel right now.

How Divorce Complicates the Child and Parent Relationship

One of the effects of growing up with divorced parents as an only child is the strain it can put on the child and parent relationship. Going through the pain of divorce can make your parents emotionally or even physically unavailable to you. It can also cause strain and tension if your parents are using you as a ‘middle man’ in their interactions. You may have to endure one parent speaking ill of the other. A parent may rely on you too much emotionally, making you their shoulder to cry on as they experience the pain of losing their spouse, this is sometimes referred to as ‘spousification,’ when a parent becomes too emotionally dependent on their child.

All these negative effects of growing up with divorced parents happen frequently and can cause a lot of distress to the child as well as wreak havoc on the child and parent relationship. The good news is that repair is possible for broken relationships and there are strategies you can put in place to help with these problems. It is especially important for children of divorce to implement boundaries with their parents so that they do not become their parents’ ‘go-between’ or emotional support. It can be as simple as saying ‘I don’t want to talk to you about my mom/dad if you are going to criticize them.’ Or encouraging them to join a support group or find a friend they can confide in.

A helpful resource with more strategies to improve and heal the child and parent relationship is our book, It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems of Your Parents’ Divorce.

Here’s What Helps When You Feel “I Have No Siblings and I Am Lonely"

Loneliness can be one of the most pervasive and painful effects of growing up with divorced parents, especially as an only child. If you’ve ever thought: “I have no siblings and I am lonely”, that is totally normal. Here is the good news: You are not alone. As distant as He may seem in your current situation, God is with you and He sees you. He has a plan for your life. A plan to heal and restore you. If you are able to, make time to go to Adoration, and prayer and journaling. 

You can also find a community here at Restored. If you are feeling alone in facing the struggles of your parents’ divorce, go listen to our podcast. There you will find the stories of other children of divorce, the strategies that helped them heal and grow, as well as expert advice from psychologists, counselors, and spiritual leaders.

Navigating the pain and problems of having divorced parents as an only child is hard enough, don’t go through it alone.

Having divorced parents as an only child can feel incredibly heavy at times. We hope this article gives you some support to work through the effects of growing up with divorced parents, as well as any challenges you may encounter in your child and parent relationship. Remember that God is always with us, He has a plan, and healing is possible. Even if you feel “I am an only child and I am lonely,” you are not alone and we can help you get on the path to healing. Check out our website today to see all the resources available to you to help you heal from the trauma of your parents’ divorce so you can break the cycle.

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Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

Your Phone Might Be Blocking Your Healing (Here’s the Plan) | Christen Routh: #168

Most people think screen time is a harmless habit. But what if it’s quietly training your brain against healing?

In this conversation, Christen Routh explains why doomscrolling feels like relief but often leaves you more anxious, more numb, and more alone. We talk about the real danger of screens, not just what they show you, but what they replace: real friendship, real presence, real growth. And we get practical about what to do instead, without going off-grid.

In this episode, we cover:

• Why screen overuse can mimic an addiction cycle and keep you stuck in escape mode

• How doomscrolling can increase loneliness through comparison and emotional crash

• How algorithms quietly shape your standards for love, friendship, and boundaries

• How to build a tech plan that makes your phone a tool again, not your master

Access the Family Digital Wellness Activity

Get in touch with Christen

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Watch the Documentary: Kenny

Watch the Trailer: Kenny (3:31 min)

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:52)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. What if the reason you're still stuck isn't just your past trauma, but actually your phone? Most people think that screen time is just a harmless habit, but the truth is it can actually quietly train your brain against healing. You're not just wasting time. You might be rehearsing escape.

This might explain why you keep telling yourself that you'll change and then keep falling right back into the same screen time habits. Why real relationships feel harder than scrolling? Why you feel more numb or more anxious or even lonelier after you've been online? Because the real danger isn't only what's on the screen, it's also what the screen is replacing. Real friendships, real presence, real growth, real healing. In this episode, we're talking about how screens affect your brain, your healing, and your relationships. We break down

why doom scrolling feels like relief but often leaves you worse off after. We also touch on how algorithms subtly shape what you think about love and friendships, how they should actually look, and what it actually takes to get your life back. Not by going off the grid, but by building a plan that makes technology a tool and not a threat. My guest today is Kristin Roth. She spent the first arc of her career in Big Four Consulting, helping major organizations navigate emerging technology and ethical AI.

She's also completed a master's in clinical mental health counseling and she's been studying the brain, attention, anxiety, and the real world impact of screen life on families, teens, and young adults. Now, if you've ever felt like your phone is your coping mechanism, your way to escape the life you live, your way out of maybe the tension in your family, if you've ever put it down and thought, why do I feel so much worse? Or maybe you just want a simple, realistic way to build real life habits, real friendships, and.

find real peace, then this episode is for you. And with that, here's our conversation.

Kristen, so good to have you on the show, welcome. As you know, our audience comes from broken families, where the parents got divorced, there was a lot of dysfunction. They've experienced trauma, they have a lot of wounds that they're carrying, and naturally, they wanna heal those wounds, they wanna heal that trauma, and most maybe importantly, they wanna go on and build strong, healthy relationships that don't repeat those patterns that they grew up with, but one of the threats I've been thinking about lately that they face is...

Christen Routh (02:51)

Thank so much, Joey. Thanks for having

Joey (03:13)

screens as good as they can be, particularly the overuse of screens. And what I've been thinking about is that these screens, especially the overuse of screens really hurt our ability to heal, to grow and to build healthy relationships. Would you agree with that? And if so, was there a particular moment that you kind of woke up to this fact?

Christen Routh (03:31)

Yeah, so I definitely agree with that. I would say there have been a couple milestone moments. I would say there was a distinct moment when one of our daughters was young and obviously every mother thinks that their kids are the cutest. And I was recording a little video of her doing something sweet and she just looked up at me and she said, are you going to post that mom? And I said, what's posting? And that was a real light bulb moment that what was a very intimate familial experience. She was already keenly aware of, I think she was maybe four.

cause I've been off social media for a while, ⁓ that that made me really aware of how much of an impact that that had on her little very, you know, continuing to develop developing brain. ⁓ so that what I would say is a distinct one. ⁓ but there have been a number, but that's kind of the first one that comes to mind in terms of the family life.

Joey (04:18)

That totally makes sense. And kind of where did you go from there? I consider you an expert on this topic and this is something that I know you're going to be producing more resources around in the future, which I'm really excited about, by the way. But I'm curious kind of what led you from that point to this place that you are now.

Christen Routh (04:34)

Yeah. So I spent the first arc of my career in big four consulting. So I was helping these large global organizations just navigate all sorts of technology adoption, how to implement emerging technology. I love learning. Love it. Love it. Love it. I could go back to school forever if I had unlimited budget. And one of my bosses, super generous guy, Simon, I said like, Hey, I want to really

learn more about this AI thing. So he was able to help me go through one of those executive programs through MIT. And as I learned more about the technology, and I was supposed to be thinking about it and the way that it would be adopted by people in an organization, I just found myself in boardrooms talking about how to do these implementations and how to configure all of that technology in an ethical way so that

It was AI enabled, but human centered. But every conversation I started having headed back to, I would say just like the workplace as a community, and then actually to those individuals, families. And so even though I was meant to be talking about things that were very corporate, nine out of 10 times, it was talking about how families were navigating the use of technology and how they were adopting it. Particularly, I would say with.

children and teenagers. And then the conversation of course trickles into adults as well. But I would say that was the general path that led me to starting to study the brain a little bit more. I'm sure a lot of folks have heard of Jonathan Heights, Anxious Generation, Ano-Lemke, Dopamine Nation. Some of those texts were coming online as I started just as like...

for the record, like an educational growth experience, a master's in clinical mental health counseling. And so as I progressed, I started to learn a little bit more about the functionality. And then I realized, OK, now I'm talking more about that a little bit than I am about the core content of my consulting. And so that's kind of when I realized it was time to pivot.

Joey (06:37)

Wow. You cover so much ground and I love how it led you to where you are today. guess like, want to go a little bit deeper into that before we get into some of the nitty gritty, like, why do you care so much about this? Like obviously you had that experience with your daughter, you know, you're working in, you know, big consulting and everything, but I'm curious if there's anything in particular, like, why do you, why does this, you know, get you going, like make you want to help people in this area?

Christen Routh (06:58)

Yeah, it's funny. But when my husband and I first started dating, he had a smartphone and I did not. And we started dating in 2010. So smartphones were, I guess, issues on the market. The iPhone was 2007. And I think it started just as like a little bit of a competition. Joey, honestly, it was like, no, no, I think I can make it without, you know, naps on my phone. Like, I just wanted to cultivate like some of those like now we call them like 90 skills, right? How to get to a place without navigation, how to, you know, look something up.

without necessarily like having it in the palm of your hand. Had to call a friend and ask for a paint color instead of, you know, going on Pinterest and comparing with thousands of people. And I was, I think at that time, probably just a jealous girlfriend. And so I was like, Jim, you're like on your phone, you know, would you think about going back to a dumb phone? And he did. And it was very kind. And then I think I made it. I don't know, maybe, so my daughter was born in 2012 and I still didn't have a smartphone.

But somewhere between 2012 and 2014, I got my first iPhone and I realized that it was just pulling so much of my attention. And so what started kind of is like this game. You know, I had colleagues that were working, you know, in many countries and again, many global organizations say like, how can you have this job? How can you have little children? How can you do drop offs and pickups without having, you know, total and complete unfettered access? And so I think it started out more like.

I can do this, you know, and probably like a little bit of like the digging in. ⁓ but that when I started to realize is when my husband and I were out, you know, and our phones were away, that was distinctly different than our peers. And it was something that I kind of wanted to protect. So I don't think that there was ever a particular light bulb moment with our parenting, but we opted to limit screens early. I would not say our screen usage is perfect. So don't look to me for the exact model, but we thought, you know,

I think we had an iPad for about 15 minutes and we were like, this is not having a wonderful effect. Like you could, you could just kind of see the immediate reaction of like the little brain for wanting more and kind of the addictive nature. Then of course we hear, you know, Steve Jobs children, you know, weren't given access to iPads and all the, all the anecdotes that everybody already is aware of. I was like, I think we can do it. I think we can do it. So through that, and it's definitely been a learning journey again.

Not perfect, but just really encouraging families like, like this is kind of a cool adventure. Technology should be a tool that we use. We should not be kind of enslaved and, know, kind of in service to it.

candidly admit how they feel. And so just like kind of talking with friends and starting those little grassroots, like, Hey, do you think, know, Susie would want to wait until this grade? And, and now we've seen the blasphemy of a lot of these movements, like wait till eight, you know, to wait for a smartphone till eighth grade, or parents kind of gathering around and signing a petition, you know, okay, we've got 10 kids that are going to great. it, just became very alluring to.

encourage and walk with people that wanted to kind of put the genie back in the bottle. And then just like kind of how to come back to being human again, more on that at some point. but ultimately, yeah, you can see the kind of trick I don't like to do say and, you know, kind of say all the negative things we already know. So I think everybody's in agreement on the problem. But really, all it takes is us banding together to kind of resolve that.

But we're at that tipping point, societally, and it's kind of cool. I'm very hopeful. I know you said you have a new little one coming. By the time your son is 15, we're going to look back to now and be like, what goofball decisions were we making as a society? So I think we're figuring it out and I'm encouraged by that. And that's why, you know, just kind of seeing the unfortunate trade-offs, you know, just made me more and more want to help others say like, okay, I think we can do this. Not that I'm a hundred percent confident, but like let's step out and...

try it and then encourage others to do this.

Joey (10:55)

Love it. That's so good. I do think everyone's aware of the problem to some degree, but I feel like a lot of us maybe don't understand it at a deep level and I know you do. So I want to dig into that a little bit. this idea of like technology, stunting growth, preventing us from having these real relationships, all of that, that we talked about at the beginning. I want to dig into that a bit. So like what's happening? How big of a problem is this? Like break that down if you would, in case someone listening is like, yeah, I kind of know screens are a problem, but I don't really understand.

Christen Routh (11:21)

Well, so we have a lot of data that supports that some of the major impacts of screen use comes down to attention span. And so the way that a lot of content is created is to kind of keep you on it. Your attention is the thing that is the commodity for which companies are trying to kind of pull in either direction. And that in and of itself may not necessarily be super inherently bad. It's more around like when we think of it in

the family context. So there are some dangers, right, with the brain and kind of the dopamine cycle that happens with the reward pathway. You you kind of have the ability to like step on the gas or step on the brake. And if you keep stepping on the gas of your little brain, then it starts to imitate what we would kind of associate with an addiction cycle, right? So you kind of want more of that thing. It starts to have less of an impact over time. So you need a little bit.

more of it. And we have a lot of research around that part. But what we're starting to find with more research is a direct clinical link to increased rates of anxiety, particularly in young women. But I don't think anybody really is immune to the impacts of it. It's changing the way that we work significantly in the workplace, both how we connect and then through some of, for example, those clinical impacts of anxiety. What it's making is it's

harder to actually interact in real life because let's say, you know, you were, let's say you were born in 2015 and you were five when, you know, COVID came on the scene. And so you're a little COVID baby angel that had to navigate his or her first years of like, say kindergarten and you know, first grade, maybe it was online. Like that was more the standard for your developing brain of interaction. So it's.

as unnatural as it might seem to somebody born in the 80s, it became kind of that commonplace thing for a little brain. And then confluence of events, right? So then we have families looking very different than they did. And so with multiple working parents, with families that are navigating households living in different homes, there's a lot more hours of work being taken place by the parents in a way that, ⁓ yeah, technology is being leveraged to kind of help

candidly with filling the children's time. I don't want to say babysitting necessarily, but it's just a reality of the way that that has unfolded. And so when you have a child who maybe comes home and their leisure is, let's say, gaming for a bit, and maybe they're interacting with somebody online in real life, but then they consume, let's say, some television content. And then let's say they jump on a Chromebook and then they're doing their homework. We've just seen the screen time skyrocket.

So my daughter came home yesterday from health class and the kids had to pull out their phones to report their screen time. And the winner was at 59 hours a week. And an interesting insight to Joey is that she's in a phone free school. So that was all incurred for 7.25 AM and after 3.15 PM. And so that's just a lot of time. The issue is that when you go then to build a friendship,

They have to learn the basic skills of building friendships in real life, which is natural as that is for you. And for me, it's not, ⁓ for somebody that has kind of started from square one building those relationships, let's say with a video game system as the core interaction or a social media platform as the core interaction. And so ultimately, yeah, we're just doing our best to kind of give those gifts of how to be a friend because the secondary kind of dovetail.

trickiness is a lot of these young adults and teens and, you know, even young adolescent children, their expectations around friendship are being driven by an algorithm. And so they have wildly, I would say wildly different standards of love and what kindness or

You know, an expression of like tenderness could look like, and candidly on the flip side, the very kind of dark side of it is they're getting fed a lot of content that's, know, candidly dangerous. You know, I just saw, you know, somebody kind of create a profile posing as a 14 year old girl. within I think two hours of being on Snapchat and Instagram was already being fed, you know, self-harm content and, you know, lot of things algorithmically that we're talking specifically about loneliness. And so.

Again, we've all heard the anecdote. We're never as connected as we've ever been in history in terms of the number of relationships that we're cultivating because most of those are, digital. It's overwhelming and not what we would maybe consider real friendship in the sense of like, Hey, I love you. You love me. I'm going to disappoint you. You're going to disappoint me. We're going to suffer through this conflict together. And then.

You know, the way the culture has kind of navigated the discussion of boundaries has also made that exceedingly complex, particularly for parent and child relationships, and particularly young adult, child and middle age and aging parent relationships as well. So I could keep going, but I'll kind of pause there. I'm not sure if there's a thread you want to.

Joey (16:42)

Yeah, no, no, no, it's so good. It's good to hear all of this as hard as it is to talk about. And I think that, like you said, everyone kind of recognizes this as a problem, but no one really knows what to do about it. So maybe let's shift over there for a second and maybe we'll go back to the problem a little bit later. But what is the solution? Because I know on some ends, one end of the spectrum is just like to live a totally kind of techless life, which I know for some people either isn't realistic or it's not very attractive. It's like, you know, I...

Don't want that. So I'm curious, what's the solution, especially for our audience, like if it's a teenager or young adult listening who, you maybe they recognize like, yep, I use a lot of screen time and I maybe need to cut back. So I'm curious, yeah, what are the solutions? What are the options? Okay, real talk. If you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally, but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people and

was really helpful for me personally. In the guide, he breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make like under eating, over stressing, or focusing too much on the scale. And he gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use that you can implement today. And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally.

Christen Routh (18:03)

Yeah, so I would say there's no one call to action. I think it's specific to each individual and I think it's specific to each family. I would say just evaluating for an individual that is capable of doing a self-evaluation. How it is that you use your screen is a great starting point, just kind of inventorying. Clinical intake will often as counselors do some basic questionnaires, you know, hey,

Tell me a little bit about like your family's mental health history and your sexual health history and things that are pretty intimate. And when we get to the, so I've actually folded in screen time as an intake question. And when we get to that question, there's deep shame for many, many individuals. They might say, I don't even want to look at it or I don't even want to think about it or I'm sure there's a, I'm sure there's a screen time app. And then those that are aware,

can kind of cite it right away. So they might say like, yeah, you know, it's three hours and 25 minutes. I've worked my way down from fat. So kind of that self-awareness around how you want to live your life intentionally with your devices is a great first step. ⁓ I wouldn't say that's necessarily the call to action. I do think, like I said, I'm very encouraged that there are individuals that are really starting to be intentional. So if you've already navigated that, let's say you've.

removed the devices that are unnecessary. Let's say maybe you've gotten out the home phone and you're encouraging your kids to call each other. I think the next gift, particularly for young people that parents can help is around cultivating friendships in real life. So just encouraging to get together in person where you are able. I remember being struck the first time.

when a young adult told me like, yeah, they'd been dating somebody for six months, but they'd never met in real life. That's a much more common paradigm now that we have, or they might cite chat or chatty as like one of their closest friends. And that's because they're very reliably available to them. And so it takes a little more work, but particularly as parents, parenting children in multiple households, it's just doing like the harder, more present thing, which is encouraging them to be together. So I always say like a basic thing like,

The child texts their friend, it's like, who are you texting? Susie? Like, okay, great. Invite her over. And it's kind of that simple, but that, that can be very anxiety producing right now for a lot of children. We kind of have to start somewhere. have to like grab that first rung of the ladder to, you know, kind of climb up and overcome ultimately the social anxiety piece that a lot of young people are experiencing with in-person interaction. I would also say hobbies is another thing that I really promote. Most young people now, if you say like, what do you like doing?

They won't lead with like, I love scrolling, you know, Instagram and like checking out like new recipes. Like it might be more subversive. They might say cooking, but then you find out they actually haven't picked up a knife yet. ⁓ and so just kind of encouraging that bridge from an online interest into an in real life hobby, because ultimately, you know, often we use that digital communication as a pastime because we're exhausted, but it's, it's inactive.

In the sense that we're not learning something, we're not building a skill, we're not growing. And the thing that we think that is bringing joy when we actually then put it down, it often you realize, and this is supported by data, that you are more sad after having done the scrolling and then the mental, you know, comparison of looking at somebody doing a hobby than actually just doing it yourself.

Joey (21:35)

Thank you for all that great advice. I love how tactical it is. The loneliness piece is really interesting. I've noticed it with our audience that relationships can feel extra scary when you come from, you know, a really dysfunctional family. Um, I think there's especially this fear. I know I felt this myself of like repeating what you grew up in. And so I think there is a temptation, like you said, to kind of go online where it might feel a bit safer. There's some distance. I can kind of present myself the way I want people to see me.

not all the flaws, but I think that, like you said, it just leaves us lonelier and even more unseen than before. But why is that, I guess? I'm curious, like, why does all that make us lonelier and more unseen?

Christen Routh (22:14)

Yeah, so kind of goes back to the addiction cycle of the reward pathway of the brain. It's kind of the same thing as coming down from a little bit of a high. So maybe the colors and the interaction feels very positive, but you often end up, like if you look at the kind of graph of the actual chemicals running through your brain afterwards, it's kind of the letdown. So that's the more biological explanation. But I would say if you were to ask most

Like young children, what are you thinking about after they leave an interaction on social media? It's often like, don't have what that person has comparison comparison being obviously a thief of joy. talk about often. also promotes, I would say the elimination of suffering, which is not practical. So when folks come in for a session and they'll kind of say like, yeah, you know, I'm, I'm struggling with this thing. Let's say depression or anxiety. We don't eliminate.

Depression, we don't eliminate anxiety. We learn how to suffer well through it. We can reduce it. We can learn ⁓ tools to more healthily cope with it, particularly in a family system. We can build up good boundaries for what is and isn't appropriate in friendships and relationships to help rewire the brain around what's been wired very counter-humanly.

And then something that you said that kind of struck me was, you know, how not to repeat, you know, perhaps something that was modeled for you as a child, whether that's, you know, let's say, interactions of conflict. It's also just being hopeful and maintaining that hope that like, Hey, I can learn. We know so much more about the brain now with neuroplasticity. That is one of the most like easily connected to the virtue of hope scientific facts like that we require our brains and like,

You know, this isn't, this isn't forever. Things can be for a season, but by the same token, it's, it's navigating that balance of my one brother very adorably says like before he was settled into his like future life vocation, like I was sad. I was a little depressed and then I found my vocation and I was sad and I was a little depressed. And that's kind of normal, but that's not really promoted through social media. So kind of helping young people read jigger and just say like, Hey, like you see my interaction with my best friend. Like we're not.

always in perfect relationship. There's only one real perfect relationship we believe in any sort of faith tradition and that's typically with your God. And we're just trying to model that. But ultimately in family communities, but also in workplace communities, it's modeling it, right? So modeling appropriate boundaries, modeling reasonable expectations, not exceedingly wild ones of,

well curated and beautifully photographed lives that, know, again, we know all the anecdotes. It's the child with or the teen with the most amazing sets of like reels and feeds that's struggling with, you know, suicidal ideation or, you know, loneliness just as much as the next person. And so to the extent that you can bring in that layer of authenticity, but model it like, Hey, I'm, I'm sad. Like I'm struggling. Like,

I wish I had this thing my 40 year old friend had like life or, you know, I'm sad, but you know what? This is also some joyful things. You know, we know a lot more about, you know, gratitude and the positive effect that has on the brain. But again, I think I go back frequently to a huge life skill. hear a lot about resilience and resilience is good to some degree, but it's also like when things are sad, when things are tough, when we are suffering, part of it is, is how to work with it.

Not like to circumvent it because that goes right back to that reward pathway and like just kind of the addiction cycle, like eliminate all things that are bad. Well, if you eliminate all things that are bad, that's not how your brain was made. And that's not good for your brain either. So, you know, just helping to navigate it, recognize the packets of joy, embrace that joy when it comes. But.

Joey (26:21)

Yeah. This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 430 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that.

horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado, and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary.

or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Blackstone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it. I wonder if what you said, like this desire to eliminate suffering is why we're seeing so many suicides. I know there's been so many, even with people I know, and it's such a sad thing, but I think, yeah, I've never heard it put in quite that way. And I think that's so accurate. And I think with our audience in particular, with the young people listening right now, for example, the young adults in particular,

I think a lot of us, a lot of them would recognize like, yeah, I am using my phone as like a way to soothe myself or to cope with all this pain in my life, all the problems in my family. So I guess like to that person listening right now, you already gave a lot of good advice, but would there be anything in particular you would say if someone kind of came to you and said, Hey, this is my coping mechanism. This is my escape. This is my way of like kind of getting out of the problems of my family. What would you say? Maybe what's one thing that they can do to maybe help do something a little bit healthier?

Christen Routh (28:16)

Yeah, I don't want to clarify the question. So are you, are you tying that to self harm specifically meaning if somebody is struggling with self harm or suicidality or just suffering.

Joey (28:26)

Yeah, great question. Not, wasn't talking about that in particular. Yeah. So it's a separate question of more just like a general struggle with like, yeah, you know, my parents are fighting or there's a lot of tension in my family. instead of maybe dealing with it or in this way, that way you're coping in a healthier way. They maybe are just doom scrolling.

Christen Routh (28:42)

So there are so many, but again, I think it comes back to the individual and they're gonna know the best. I think I reflect back to just the self-awareness. So we have so many tools now and I expect, I would say in the next 12 to 24 months, we're gonna see a lot more tools available. So something actually one of my British colleagues mentioned it offhand knowing, like I chatter about this all the time during my.

other role as a, as an executive assistant. And it's actually, it's called the brick. So this is a tool where you can, at this point, I should be asking for commission. This is not sponsored, but does not know of my very humble existence, but you tap your phone and you select to essentially eliminate the use of any app on your phone. And you can put parameters around that. And very brilliantly, they'll say like, start with five apps. But once you leave the house, you can't.

Access that it's not like a screen time limit where you can ignore it and override it. It's it. You have like five lifetime, like get out of jail for free cards. But then after that, you need to buy a new one, which is great. but there are so many tools like that, that if you're looking really just to, like I said, kind of get on the first rung of the ladder, recognizing how you use it and then potentially leveraging a tool, there's many, many other digital tools available. Brook is just happens to be one, but it is a lot easier.

I'm going to tie it back to the hobbies. It is a lot easier to turn away from something when you have something else true, beautiful, or good to turn towards. And so like the thing that I pray for for my children is one good friend. And so if you can just imagine, you know, I think of my childhood and, know, I think of my daughter who has 56 more hours than the girl sitting next to her in health class. Like what's she doing with her time? You know, she's doing.

all things that are fun and true and good and beautiful. And it's like a lot of hobbies and, know, it doesn't have to, you know, again, a lot of young people go immediately to athletics. I was not an athlete. I was a musician, but to be able to cultivate that in a way that also doesn't become like automatically very competitive. We've seen a huge shift in families where, you know, we, kind of had this proliferation of unfortunately like promoting like.

Hey, there's kidnappers everywhere in your neighborhood. so parents came to kind of zoom in and we've seen a lot more helicoptering and results of that. And so we've never spent as much time supervising children as we have, but just really giving them the ability to cultivate creativity and free play. That's ultimately the stuff that pulls you away from the doom scroll. It's having something that you love more. And, you know, again, for people of faith, it's like, when will I stop using my phone? Well, when I realized I love God more than my phone, it's like, well. ⁓

That is good. But yeah, I think, again, it's hard, particularly for younger children to learn that without mom and dad modeling that. so, you know, that line, you know, are they going to remember your eyes or are they going to remember the back of your phone? It's like, you know, but it's it's just the reality. So the best gift you can give your kids is be interested in things other than your phone and show them that a creative and, you know, hobby filled and friend filled life is is a good one.

Joey (31:59)

Yeah, no, I love it. And I think you're wise to say that it's going to be personalized and customized to everyone. But I think the principles that you're sharing, I think are applicable to everyone. And I love that whole idea of like a push towards the real, toward experience, toward even like tangible things. It's really interesting. Like a lot of my friends now, I'm just looking around to like hobbies they're getting into. And it's like, it's all like away from a screen. It's very tangible. Like, you one of them is really into like farming now and

you others are into other things and it seems to be yeah this move towards like feeling dirt or something and not not so high tech.

Christen Routh (32:34)

Exactly. And we're seeing that with young adults. For those that are maybe, let's say in the 21 to 25 range who was handed a smartphone, maybe as an eight or a 10 year old before screen time limits existed, they feel the impacts. They're the first ones to say like, I've taken up fly fishing and I now, you know, know how to basket weave. They have, there's such a return to those hobbies for that younger generation.

And the first thing that they'll say is, my kids will never have an iPad. My kids will never have a phone. kid, like they lived it and they know, they know how much they have struggled as a result of it. And so that's why I'm encouraged, even though right now I do think the climate cultural message is a little bit like doomsday, particular around artificial intelligence, but like.

It's not going away. So I'm a big proponent of how do we make this like an exciting adventure where we can provide people the guidance for its good and ethical usage to put the genie back in the bottle in a way that it becomes a tool for us. ⁓

Joey (33:30)

Yeah, no, I would agree with you on that. And I think there's a lot of good coming to it, even though I a lot of people are being negative, but that's another conversation for another time. Okay. So imagine a young adult's listening right now and they've heard a little bit of like some of the signs of like, your screen time is like really high, other things like that. Maybe they're, you know, feeling a certain way, but what are some of the other maybe like warning signs that like, Hey, you need a break from the screen. Is there anything, ⁓ a list of things perhaps that you would give them? know we've thrown around a few things already, but I'm curious, like if you would say, look out for this.

Christen Routh (34:00)

So I don't know that there's any, again, like out of the box things to be aware of. I would say anecdotally, those that struggle more as a clinician, I might say, you know, any unprocessed trauma back there, you know? And so just kind of your subconscious has such an impact on the way you move. I'm sure it's come up. I know many greats have gone before me on this podcast. So I'm sure somebody covered that, but yeah. And just meaning like,

Cool. What are you here for? Because ultimately when you're struggling, so what's interesting is like it is difficult with young adults to promote it per se as tech addiction and kind of invite them on into a tech addiction clinic because there is that shame. But if we start with what are you living for? What's your purpose? What's your meaning? And obviously we're not expecting a 21 year old junior in university to be able to answer that articulately that it's a curve. It'll change. 21 will look different than 31.

But yeah, what are you, what are you living for? So one counseling technique, particularly for those that work with individual struggling with addiction, it's called motivational interviewing and motivational interviewing. It's just this most kind, gentle, compassionate way to approach. What are you motivated to do? do you really, in this case, if it were to be, ⁓ an actual, let's say physical substance to which somebody was addicted, like, okay, great. Like tell me about your relationship with heroin. Like, well.

What, what does it always given you? What is it providing to you? What do you, okay. Tell me more. It does not, it does not kind of demand or command that motivation should be something. It continues to open up and walk down the path until they find their intrinsic motivation. It's really the same thing with smartphones. If somebody is not internally motivated and does not know the meaning for which they are living their, why their purpose, their, at least like some sense of identity.

really hard to kind of convince somebody to be motivated to put something else away. So

Joey (36:00)

I agree. Yeah. And I love that technique because I definitely am a firm believer. One of my mentors kind of instilled this in me that everyone actually already has all the motivation they need. It's just

buried deep within them and they have to uncover it. have to discover it. But once they do, my goodness, people will do incredible things. It's, about finding that why like Nietzsche said, know, a few, yeah, I forget the exact quote, but you know, a man with a why can endure almost any house, something like that. And I think that's so true. You know, I found that in areas of my life, something I'm always trying to live better, but yeah, I think that's really, really good advice. Not, not what I was expecting you to say, but I think that's really beautiful. Cause, cause at the end of the day, if we kind of zoom out and look at it, it's like technology,

You know, smartphones in particular screens, there's just a tool and you know, if they're running our lives because we're addicted to them, ⁓ that's a sad existence. But the good news is there's a better way. There's a better existence and that can just be a piece, a tool, something that you carry with you to, you know, to accomplish some greater meaning, like you said. And I think that's a much more hopeful message because, because I, you know, I don't want this podcast to sound.

super down on technology. love technology and I know you do too, right? Like we've been able to do so many great things with, you know, helping people to exit poverty, to, you helping people have better health. I know there's like problems in all these areas for sure, but there's been so many improvements, you know, in the business world and just like in humanity overall. But of course it's a two edged sword. comes with a lot of problems, but, I think I love this approach. Like you were saying that it's just, it's a tool and it matters like where you point it.

Christen Routh (37:30)

Exactly. And I think what, when we're kind of rationalizing our use of it, we talk about how it connects us as a community, which it does. And that's one of its wonderful uses. But I'll say, for example, a shift in the workplace with that connectivity that has had a trade off, right? So let's say in my early days of when I was an auditor, we would, you know, when my dad was young and he was, you know, a CFO and somebody asked for a work paper.

And it was five o'clock and he was on his way home. First of all, he didn't have a cell phone to call, right? To ask him for that thing. Maybe halfway through his career, he had an email. You waited until 9 a.m. And so there was a lot more segmenting around the workplace and the workplace community. Now it is nice if you're the auditor that's going to be in the room till midnight. You can call the CFO. You can ask, you know, I can ask for the work paper. They email it. They ping it forward. But that constant connectivity and that.

work-life integration has kind of trickled into everything then. And so again, just being intentional about how it is that you want that tool to be used in your family and then agreeing with, you know, your life partner on how you want that to unfold or if there's multiple parents in the mix, just trying to sing from the same song sheet is one of the easiest ways to try to kind of make it that tool again, because ultimately, even though circling back, it was meant to be

a supplement or an augmentation of connection, it has replaced a lot of connection. So now let's say you have a colleague. I remember very distinctly, actually, I had a new client that was put on my plate in 2020 and I didn't meet them in person for almost three years. And then after having met in real life, the entire relationship changed in the best sense of it. And the ability to work together was just like absolutely.

skyrocketed and just changed in a way that I did not expect. And so I think that personal experience, again, I don't have the data to support that per se, but I think even from like a workplace efficacy because of task switching and because of the constant connectivity and because of a number of those other things, it's actually, that's where it's becoming actually deleterious to our ability to do work well and then to do work.

in community and it's the same thing with every community. So schools, know, PTO, used to be like just all in-person parents rallying around a thing and now it's, know, sign up genius and this and that. And that's not all bad. Some of those things are really good and super helpful, but it eliminates, you know, do you know all your children's friends, parents from having had an in-person interaction or is it more like, yeah, you know, we set them up to let's say play a video game together and.

They've been at one birthday party and I dropped them off, I didn't get so that in-person community. But right now it's funny. There's just still like this little bit of shame around just kind of popping into the center of a parent group of parents and saying like, Hey, I'm blank blanks mom. And like, you know, it's great to meet you because we we've kind of lost that art of, you know, kind of in-person networking. know that's something that you're very gifted and, kind of seeing people and putting together their, I call them Venn diagrams.

If you never have that opportunity or you're a remote worker exclusively, like you can't bump into anyone in the elevator. Online school is wonderful for some students, but it is harder to naturally develop a best friendship if that person is in Florida and you're in Georgia, you know, those types of things.

Joey (41:02)

Totally, no, I've seen them in the work sphere, like you said, without spending too much time on this. remember just, you know, we had a, last company was, we were completely remote. I was one of the leaders in the company and meeting the team members was huge. It was awesome. Just I was able to better lead them. You know, my colleagues as well, like the other leaders, like I was able to, yeah, just work. Like it's like, almost like it shifted overnight when you kind of meet them in person. So I think there's something very good and real about that, about, you know, meeting in person. And like you said, it.

goes into every area of life. so yeah, no, think there's going to be a lot in the future about doing like real experiences. There's a lot of opportunity there and a lot of people who want that. So no, so good. I was curious, you know, we've kind of thrown little nuggets here or there, but I'm curious if there's any, um, anecdote or story or study that kind of shows the benefits of just getting more of a handle on this. Like, like what are the results? Like what, what does the data say or what do you do at least stories anecdotes say about like, if you

get more mastery over this, will maybe make you happier, whatever the result is, especially when it comes to maybe healing and growth and relationships.

Christen Routh (42:06)

So I am far from the expert on happiness, but in our broader community, Dr. Arthur Brooks, who I highly recommend, is in fact a happiness expert. So I definitely would gear people towards his body of work, which shows the data that aligns to some of the things that we've been talking about. Those with a purpose and a meaning will for sure have an easier time of being happier more often. We see in Jonathan Haidt's work,

Instances of anxiety are certainly going to be decreased as screen time decreases. So we have that at this point, like I said, with that tipping point. I think if you come back to me this time next year or this time three years from now, there's going to be so much more available data because it now has so very many sets of eyeballs focused on it. But I would say those are just, yes, anecdotally some of those things that we had already talked about with.

some of those other experts in those key.

Joey (43:03)

areas. Love it. Yeah. And one story I would throw in is, you know, when I went to Franciscan University studying in Austria at that time, I didn't have a smartphone until after college and going over there, you know, my regular phone didn't work. And this is at a time where I don't even remember if I had like an iPad or something, but, but yeah, they gave us like these dumb phones and we could buy minutes to add onto them, which is so foreign to a lot of people listening right now. But, my goodness, Kristen, that was like one of the happiest few months of my life.

I just, loved it. It was so good. You know, just hanging out with friends, the 180 of us who were there, you got to know them real well. Yeah, there were problems, but you you work through those problems and going on hikes, playing sports, you know, going to waterfalls and diving through caves and doing all this like beautiful, beautiful views of the Austrian Alps.

Christen Routh (43:51)

You are the original ice bath champion, I'm sure. Myself, but there was one wired phone down the hallway that we had to share and like a phone outside. I didn't even have it

Joey (43:55)

Not me, but...

Okay, yeah, yeah, that was.

Christen Routh (44:07)

abroad.

And I remember Skype becoming an actual product when I did, I was a French major undergrad and it was like mind blowing. Again, that's the joys of both sides of things, you know, the ability to connect with your family at home without it being $17 a minute was great, but then being disconnected from your family at home so that you had these experiences of independence and failing and resolving and

you know, learning in a foreign country, you know, that's so different. I do giggle now because now I hear about students, you know, with cell phones and, you know, taking like Airbnb reservations as they're like walking in. like, there was some gift though, and having to plan and learn, but it's cool. You see, you know, I think you're familiar with Andrew Lobacher and the work that he's doing with Humanality and encouraging students to go back to those phones. They're learning life skills that they haven't had the opportunity, I'm sure, to cultivate, uh, just because of circumstance. so.

Joey (45:05)

Totally.

Christen Routh (45:06)

it they will be as formed young adults having to navigate it. Even if it's a little more painful, even if it's a little patience inducing, yeah, life's as my dad always says, is a lot about waiting. So the faster we embrace that, but yeah, the culture is preaching the opposite. So it is hard a little bit to reconcile those things until we settle.

Joey (45:08)

Yeah, no.

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Yeah, no, there's these big machines, like you said at the beginning, that want all of our attention. And so we're fighting an uphill battle, but I agree. think that the pendulum is going to swing and we're going to see some real change. Yeah, so good. And maybe one challenge I would leave people with and feel free to throw something in as well is just like, whether you're married or not, sitting down, if you're married, you know, with your spouse, fiance, whatever, and just coming up with like a simple plan of like, this is what we want our family to do when it comes to technology.

Or if you're just a single person on your own, this is kind of how I want my life to look. Because I think so often in my life, it sounds so simple and so basic that I'm almost too simple to be effective, but it's like, we just lack the design aspect, the intentionality. And when we actually sit down, we realize, no, this thing has been kind of on autopilot controlling me, dictating what I do. And I just want to be the one in charge. And I think everyone wants that. And so maybe that's one challenge with you.

Yeah, put the phone away, get out a piece of paper and a pen, which I know sounds kind of foreign. And maybe write out a little bit of like what you want that to look like for my family. What that looked like is we were spending too much time watching movies. You we don't watch like regular TV, but it was just too much time on movies and screens. And so we actually just took the TV down and it was just an experiment that we were just running. Like, let's just do this for a month and see what happens. We could always put it right back. Yeah, it's going to take, you know, 15, 20 minutes, but it's still sitting in another room.

we're not using it's awesome. Now we still will watch movies from time to time on a laptop or an iPad, but that's like even, you know, limited now. So we feel we're in a much better spot that the iPhone, I'll have to report back to you guys on that one. I'm doing, you know, I do better, but I feel like I can improve there. But I think that's sort of intentional and not that we've done it perfectly by any means, I think is, one of the keys. So that would be my challenge, but what would you say?

Christen Routh (47:35)

Yeah. So building off that, I think it's again, making your individualized and tailored plan. There are so many tools now and so many people that are navigating the creation of materials to help you. So I mentioned humanality. They're encouraging people to build like just in real life villages. And there is something to kind of rally around. have some cool, it's almost like a scouting where you get badges and you kind of earn stickers as you do little milestones that are screen limited.

Um, I talked already a little bit about the brick. One, one thing that we do in our household, every child that comes through the door, we have the talk the first time they visit us that phones live in our phone charging basket. They are welcome to stand next to the counter at the entire duration of the play date. They are not, not permitted. They are always allowed access to their phone. Um, it has to be plugged into the wall, which you can kind of watch. mean, my children's friends are all adorable and amazing.

you can kind of watch. It takes a few minutes to like untether. they're like, okay, they're walking past it in the kitchen. They're like, you're like trying to, you know, okay, or they might, they might check it a few times at the outset, but far and away once the phones are away, they just play and they play age appropriately in a way that they wouldn't if the cameras were out and the recording was going and they just get to, they just get to be little. So that's kind of like a cool way. So Jimmy and I tried to do that. My husband

I just put your phone away. So it kind of takes like the no phones at the dinner table to the next level. And then, yeah, just, but I would echo what you have already said. When I give talks in communities, we have a guide for how to go through some of those questions as a family and as a family plus community, because often families are living in two or three households in a community.

And like I said, when you're kind of singing from that same song sheet, it makes it a little easier to be consistent so that it's not like, well, when I'm at dad's house, I get to do whatever I want. When I'm at mom's house, she makes me put. So just having that real unified front, particularly in co-parenting is a wonderful way to help reinforce that. I will also say that every time I call a mom or a dad and I tell them about our phone rule, just so that they know, call the house phone if you need your child, because they're not going to text you back because it's in the basket.

I'm always bracing myself like they're going to be upset and I've never been met with anything other than that's awesome. Wow. And everybody's supportive. my gosh, I wish we did that. And then I say like, we can too, like let's, let's try to do it because a lot of that, you know, even when we talk about, yeah, big tech, it's like, if we didn't use it, it wouldn't exist. Right. We're the ones that are promoting and perpetuating its existence. So

Joey (50:16)

Dang. So good on that note. And I love that. And those questions, is there any way for people to get access to those? That's okay. If not, I just figured I'd ask.

Christen Routh (50:23)

If you don't mind sharing my contact information, always happy. But yeah, we call it again, positive spin, like a whole family or a whole community adventure of how to navigate just digital wellbeing. Because when it is a tool in service to us, we are, our wellbeing is higher and healthier and happier.

Joey (50:38)

Awesome. Yeah, maybe we'll try to put a link to it just so you don't have to coordinate all that, but that's amazing. Well, so good to have you on the show. I'm really glad that we had this conversation. Two final things. ⁓ One, how can people find you online? And then two, I want to give you the last word. Yeah, what maybe final advice or encouragement would you offer, especially to the young people listening right now who come from broken families, they've struggled a lot. Whatever final advice and encouragement would you give them?

Christen Routh (51:05)

Yeah. So I, as I mentioned, when my opening story, the minute my daughter asked me about posting, I eliminated Facebook and Instagram and all that good stuff. So I am only on the internet on LinkedIn. So I am happy to always receive folks that want to connect and chat about this through LinkedIn. And if there's one thing that I could tell young people, you're loved, you're lovable. It's if, if they all could believe that all the other stuff goes away, that's really the core of it.

Joey (51:37)

That wraps up this episode of this podcast. helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember you're not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help and keep in mind the words of CSU who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.