#151: Even Necessary Divorces Hurt | Brandy
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When Brandy was only a few months old, her parents divorced due to her father’s alcoholism. From the outside, her story might seem like a “best case” scenario—she was raised by a courageous single mom and later a kind stepfather.
But underneath it all, she carried wounds no one could see. She believed perfection was the path to love. She feared becoming like the very people who hurt her. One wound even stayed buried for 20 years.
In this episode, we explore:
The shocking memory that resurfaced in adulthood—and what it revealed
Why her marriage should’ve failed statistically—and how she and her husband beat the odds
And what her mom did right that every divorced parent needs to hear
If you've ever felt pressure to be perfect, feared repeating your parents’ marriage, or kept wounds hidden, this episode is for you.
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#039: The Anatomy of a Wound & How to Heal | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
Joey (00:59)
Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pannarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate all the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. guest today is Brandy. Brandy currently serves as the executive director of a nonprofit called Chastity Project, a ministry that's dedicated to inspiring teens and young adults to embrace and live out authentic love in the virtue of chastity. Before ministry,
Brandy enjoyed over two decades of leadership in public education. She wore many hats throughout her career, including teacher, instructional coach, assistant principal, principal, and director of communications among others. Brandy earned a bachelor's degree in interdisciplinary studies from Texas A and College Station, followed by a master's degree in education leadership from Texas A ⁓ and Texarkana. She also holds certifications as both a Texas principal and superintendent. And outside of her...
Professional life, Brandy is a devoted wife to her husband Dan and a proud mother to their four children. Now when Brandy was just a few months old, her parents divorced due to her father's alcoholism and from the outside, her story ended up looking like a best case scenario. She was raised by a really courageous single mom and later a kind stepfather. But underneath it all, she carried wounds that no one could see. She believed that perfection was the path to love. She feared becoming like the very people who hurt her and one wound even stayed hidden for 20 years.
And so in this episode, we explore all of that, plus how our wounds from divorce, from abuse, from absent parents certainly shape us, but they don't have to define us. We talk about the shocking memory that resurfaced in adulthood for her and what it revealed, how being the good kid can actually be a trauma response and the hidden impact that divorce can have on children, even when it's handled well. We talk about why her marriage should have failed statistically and how she and her husband beat those odds and have built a healthy marriage.
And finally, what her mom did right that every divorced parent needs to hear. I'm really impressed with her mom. And so if you felt pressure to be perfect, you feared repeating your parents' marriage or kept wounds hidden, this episode is for you. Now in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. This is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is just to listen with an open mind. Even if you take out the God parts, skip the God parts, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode. And with that, here's my conversation with
Brandy.
So good to have you here. Welcome to this show.
Brandy (03:21)
Thank you for having me, Joey. I'm excited to be with you today.
Joey (03:24)
I want to dive right in. I'm excited to learn more about your story. I know bits and pieces of it, but to hear it cohesively, I'm really looking forward to. From what you remember, what you were told, what was life like in the months and years before your parents split?
Brandy (03:39)
So my story is, well don't know how unique it is, but unique to most of the kids that I could relate to when I was younger who had experienced divorce. My parents divorced when I was just a couple months old. So I don't have any memories of what was going on at home. So I can only just relate what I was told. My biological father was an alcoholic. He, praise God, has been in recovery for.
a long, time now, but he was an alcoholic. And so, you know, all of the things that come with that late nights out partying and drinking with buddies and ⁓ infidelity and, you know, just all of the emotional really abuse, you know, for my mother that she endured by not having an equal partner in their marriage, somebody that she could depend on and rely on. So it was quite volatile, you know, as I understand it.
And my mother, once I was born, she said she knew immediately, you know, that she could not raise me in that environment, you know, that it was not healthy for me, also not healthy for her to stay. And so she would often pick me up and sort of head out the door and he would be home and she would be explaining to him that she needed to leave. And he would take me from her and say, well, you can leave, but you can't take her. And so of course my mother wasn't going to leave me behind.
So she would stay. you know, and I think that's, you know, probably relatable to a lot of women in situations like that. You know, they have children, have, you know, they may be relying on their partner for income. And so my mom had nothing. I mean, she had no college degree. She, you know, just really didn't have anything. And so she would stay. And then finally, one day, by the grace of God, he came home, as I understand it, and was intoxicated. And she said, I'm going to leave.
And he allowed her to leave. She tells the story that she explained to him in a very calm way that, you know, if he didn't allow us to leave, you know, if he could think through what my life would be like and how I might grow up to hate him because of what he had put us through. And so that was the turning point for him, you know, that he decided, I guess, in that moment that he didn't want that to be the case, that he didn't want me to grow up hating him. And so he allowed us to leave. And so.
You know, while divorce is never a good option for anybody in this case, it was, you know, really probably my mother's only option because he was not willing to, to change. But yeah, was quite volatile.
Joey (06:10)
Okay, yeah, and you're so young and that makes sense that something needed to change, something needed to happen and wow, no, I mean, I can't imagine what your mom went through and that's something I think, yeah, with age and whatever level of maturity I've been able to acquire, I have definitely tried to put myself in my parents shoes more to like understand what they were going through. So that's beautiful you've been able to do that. It sounds like you've had some conversations with your mom.
Brandy (06:33)
Yes. And that's been when we can talk more about this later, but one healing piece for me has been that my mom has always been open to conversations about questions I may have. that's been really good. My mom and I are close.
Joey (06:48)
Yeah, no, that's wonderful. And especially like you said, if it's before your explicit memory, like your cognitive memory develops, then you don't know, you won't be able to pull those images up, but your, your body remembers like you had, went through those experiences. So it's definitely helpful. I found for sure to have someone who's able to, to relay that. And one maybe point here, and I know we could talk later about this. If your parents are unwilling to talk about this, maybe there's someone else in your life who can, I remember learning a lot about just like the family dynamics and my parents' families through
relatives through know aunts and uncles so I think that's a good tip if someone's thinking like well can't have that conversation with mom or I can't have that conversation with dad for one reason or another is anything you would add to that
Brandy (07:27)
Yeah, no, I think that's really important. As a former educator, I mean, I for sure tried to make sure that I was speaking into the lives of children who might have been, you know, going through the same things and felt like that was one way that God could use me in that career, you know, and had a number of conversations with kids when they would, you know, be upset about something going on in their family with regard to divorce or parents fighting.
You know, and tried to just listen, but then relate to them that you're not the only one and we could talk about it and I would share my story or, whatever bit of my story was appropriate. So I do think that's really important for kids of any age. mean, even into your adult years, you know, being able to talk about the things that happened. That's huge.
Joey (08:13)
Huge. Yeah, because when you bottle it up, it doesn't lead to great things, which we could talk more later about. But I'm curious as a principal, as an educator, like you said, what did you observe in the young people you were leading who did come from like divorced or dysfunctional families, like highly dysfunctional families? And yeah, were there any kind of go-to tactics in addition to what you mentioned of like having conversation, offering empathy that you would use?
Brandy (08:35)
Yeah,
well, I would say this, you know, and I think you've talked about this on the podcast quite often. Maybe one misconception is that if the divorce feels more amiable, you know, between the two parents and maybe it was a low conflict situation. So I think the misconception that comes along with that is that the kids don't really suffer, you know, that they'll be fine. And I think most people probably would have thought that about me because I was so young. she'll be fine. She doesn't, you know, there's, there's no
real trauma from this. But I think that's important for adults to just remember that it does always affect children, always, know, regardless of even in a situation like mine where it's really for the good of the family, you know, when there's abuse or something involved, it still, you know, leaves kids with questions in their minds about who they are and what part of it they played. so
I think, just being open to discuss things with children is really important. And then the other thing that I think is really important for parents to remember, if I could just give advice to parents, and that's just not to use your kids as a pawn in a divorce situation, because I've seen that time and time again, where the kids are sort of caught in the middle of it all and trying to sort of be the adult in this situation, and that does not serve children well in any way, shape, or form.
I mean, I often just would be frustrated wanting to tell parents like grow up and be the adult, you know, you've made your choices, but now you've, you know, you've got to be sensitive to your children's needs. So that's really important. But yeah, just having, you know, making sure that every kid has a relationship with a caring adult is huge.
Joey (10:14)
⁓ That is huge. Were there any trends that you've seen? I know you've listened to and seen research on this, I'm curious if there are any anecdotal stories or just trends you notice with the young people that you were serving who came from what we call broken families compared to the kids who came from healthier intact families.
Brandy (10:34)
I mean, the kids who came from intact families and families who, I mean, sometimes families can be intact, but then things are not good at home. but kids who came from, you know, really strong families, ⁓ where both mom and dad were really involved and helpful to the children and had good relationships with the kids.
Those are the kids who really excel. They don't struggle to build relationships with others. That attachment theory comes into play and they have the proper, they know how to attach properly to the proper people. I think kids who come from broken families are in large part in danger of seeking relationships that are not healthy for them. Whether that be that they are more at risk for abuse when they're younger or
even when they're older, know, seeking out relationships that are not healthy because they don't have not had that good experience with what a healthy relationship looks like. So, I mean, I think there's just all kinds of dangers, if you will, you know, for kids who come from broken families. And again, that's why it's really important for the adults in their lives, you know, to really be cognizant of that, you know, and do the right thing by the children as much as you possibly can.
Joey (11:49)
Yeah, I know I couldn't agree more and it often requires looking beyond your own pain, but without going further into all of that, and thank you for weighing in kind of from that role as like a principal. I'm curious, so you mentioned you were just months old when your parents split and then how old are you now just for the context for everyone. If you're okay.
Brandy (12:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 48, almost 50 inching towards 50.
Joey (12:10)
Nice. Okay. I don't, don't think I'm supposed to ask a woman how old she is, but we have to end the podcast. And then, ⁓ so obviously you didn't really learn. couldn't have learned about the divorce separation and divorce when you were younger, but do you remember maybe having conversations with your mom or even your dad as you got older and kind of understanding what was happening and what family life was like in a divorce situation?
Brandy (12:32)
So my mom, think I said this was really good to always be open to conversation around any questions I had, which was great. So from my earliest memories, I can remember having conversations with her. Now my biological, and I keep saying biological father because my mom later remarried and I have a fabulous stepfather that I don't even really consider my stepfather. And I've always just called him dad. So, but my biological father was in my life to the extent he could be. He had visitation. So,
You know, there would be conversations with my mom around that, you know, when I was going to go with my dad and, you know, what we were going to do and those sorts of things. I don't know how young I was when my mom explained, you know, his alcoholism and all of that. But I remember from a very young age, I have this really concrete memory of being on the playground at my elementary school. I could.
close my eyes and still be there. And looking at my friends who had intact families, and even though I at that point was in a really good situation with my mom having remarried, I still wondered what would it be like to have, you know, your mom and dad, your biological parents married. And I remember just looking at different friends and thinking about, you know, what I would see in their homes.
and what that might be like, know, almost fantasizing about it. But like I said, my mom was always really good to have open conversations with me if I had questions. And I'll tell you one thing she did that was so powerful. She went to visit a psychologist when they divorced to ask for advice on like, you know, what do I say to her? ⁓ My mother really, she would tell you if she were here, ⁓ she didn't really want me to be around my dad. ⁓ You know, she was fearful of what that might bring and what I might see and be exposed to.
But the psychologist gave her really good advice, or at least I think it was really good advice. And that was to never say anything negative about my dad, to let me discover anything that I might need to discover on my own. I mean, obviously in a safe way, you wouldn't want to put a child in an unsafe situation. And so I remember from a very early age, there would be situations where he would take me for the weekend and it wasn't anything bad. It wasn't a bad situation, but he was just very different.
You know, I would feel uncomfortable and not myself in whatever situation that we were in visiting friends or, know, or what have you. And, still my mom persisted, even when I would come home and I might have, you know, complaints, if you will, about whatever went on over the weekend. My mom never said anything negative about my dad. And she would continue to say, you have all the best parts of him. And she would point out, yeah, it's beautiful. She would point out, makes me emotional.
She would point out like things like I was a very studious child and she never really was all that studious, but my dad was. And so she would point out things like that and say, see, that's from your dad. You got all his best parts. And so, I mean, that was just a beautiful, no healing experience, I think. And I didn't even recognize, you know, at the time what was going on, but that was obviously, you know, really a positive piece that she employed.
Joey (15:37)
love that because as you know so often parents can fall into you know saying things like you're just like your father you're just like your mother and getting into those like spats which you know I've seen time and time again I'm in and out of my family and with the young people we work with and yeah so I think that's like a really beautiful tactic to actually call out the good while I really really like that and I hope we can if that's okay with you we will use that moving forward but ⁓ for sure yeah no okay so good I'm curious like with the visitation and again I love that
tactic to have your mom like without putting you in danger letting you kind of discover for yourself that makes so much sense to me yeah I'm curious what visitation was like for you to what from what you remember did it continue on as usual what was that like because as you know everyone listening has been through something like that so I'm curious what the experience like that was
Brandy (16:25)
So, my mom and stepfather had primary custody and my dad just had visitation. And when I was, until I was about six, I believe, he lived in my hometown. so visitation was very easy and he would just come and get me for the weekend. And now, of course, this was after he sobered up, you know, he, didn't allow him to take me, you know, when he was drinking. But so I think I was probably, I think I saw him off and on when I was very, very small.
But probably at my grandparents' his parents were just some of my favorite people. have really good memories of his parents. Even though his father was an alcoholic, and that of course contributed to his own alcoholism, my grandmother was just what I would say. I she was a saint. And so I loved being at their house. So I think I spent probably a lot of time at their house for visitation, which was great. My mom totally trusted my grandparents. I don't think at this point my grandfather must not have been drinking or she wouldn't have... ⁓
you know, allowed me to go. But my grandparents were wonderful and so we would go there a lot. So there were happy memories of visitation there. But then often we would be, you know, at his apartment and, know, with his friends and things like that. And I just never felt really all that comfortable, sadly. My dad was, I also have really vivid memories of him being really hypercritical of things. And so, you know, where my mom was always really positive about him, my dad would say things like,
your nails are filthy, why doesn't your mother clean your nails? And my nails were not filthy. My mother took very good care of me, you know. And so he was always a little more critical of me, of my mother. And so I think that also probably, you know, made things more uncomfortable. So that continued until I was about six and my grandparents passed away within just, I think it was probably a couple of months of each other. And so at that point, my dad moved away. And so then visitation became a little more infrequent. And I guess I would say,
And I certainly don't say this to be judgmental of my dad. I think I want to preface with just saying, he came from a broken family as well. And I think he did the best he knew how to do. He just never really found a lot of healing, unfortunately. But I would say he would often jump in and want to be kind of ⁓ a father when it was really convenient. And so he would want to come and maybe get me for two weeks to spend some time with him in the summer.
And then he would make big promises, you know, about, we're going to stay in touch or what have you, you know, and then, and then that would fall by the wayside. And that's really continued even today. I am still in touch with him, but he doesn't live anywhere near me. And he even today will make a big promise about wanting to like, you know, have regular phone calls or whatever. And then he just can't, you know, he just can't commit to it.
just think that's all from his own brokenness, you know, and I just don't hold that against him anymore. There's just been a lot of healing there, praise God.
Joey (19:19)
Yeah, I that's beautiful. I'd love to talk more about that. Well, thanks for going into the visitation stuff. I wanted to talk a little bit about this kind of pattern that you recognize at some point with, you know, okay, alcoholism runs in the family, brokenness runs in the family. Was that a big fear of yours? I'm sure we'll get into this further, but is that something you feared the alcoholism repeating the brokenness disorder?
Brandy (19:38)
Yeah. So I think a huge part of my brokenness from the wounding was this tendency to perfectionism. So I always was quite a bit of a rule follower anyway, but always seeing like performance equals love. And I think a lot of that came from the fact that my dad would come around for things like my dance recital because he wanted to tell all of his friends, that's my daughter on the stage.
I'm inside think I saw that so there was this perfectionism so I was always a rule follower but in high school I never took a sip of alcohol because I was terrified I mean just totally terrified that if I took even one step you know that I might also be an alcoholic so it played a huge part and maybe that was a good thing that I didn't drink in high school but but also I don't think staying away from alcohol because of that fear is healthy either.
Joey (20:31)
Fair enough. No, that totally makes sense. Yeah, no, and I think that's probably one of the biggest like felt pains and fears that our audience experiences is just like, I don't want to become like my parents or I don't want to like fall into the same vices or I don't want to, you know, just repeat the relationships that they had. And so definitely I'm excited to talk more about that when we get into relationships a little bit more. I am curious if there's anything else you would add about, yeah, just, guess life.
as a kid growing up in that environment. We've already covered it quite thoroughly, but I'm just curious if there's anything else that you would add.
Brandy (21:04)
just more, maybe add a little bit about my stepfather, you know, because that was also very healing to have a father figure. So he, stepped in when I was also very young. I don't have any recollection really of life before him and just never, I mean, I never felt like a stepdaughter ever, ever, and have two siblings from, you know, that marriage. And they never felt like step siblings to me. I mean, we've never.
referred to each other in that way. And so that was really healing too. And I think I've shared this with you just briefly before, but I think this is important to share because obviously the goal of the podcast is to help somebody out there who may be going through the same thing. So ⁓ had this great relationship with my stepfather and his father though was also funny enough an alcoholic. So there was a lot of dysfunction in his family as well.
course I didn't, you know, wasn't cognizant of that as a child, but later, I think I was probably around four, there was some abuse by my step grandfather. And I decided, I remember being very aware of what he was trying to do. My mom had always talked to me about, you know, dangers with, you know, with other people. Mainly, I think she was afraid of like who my father might take me around. And so I was very aware of, you know, of like, you've got to tell somebody.
Thank goodness. And ⁓ so I remember thinking when he went to, when that first happened that I needed to tell somebody. And I remember wanting so badly to tell my mother, but this is a product of divorce. My mother had already been divorced once. And because this was my step-grandfather, step-grandfather, I was afraid. I remember thinking this so vividly. I was afraid that if I told.
My mother would take my side. I had no question that she would believe me and would handle the situation the way that it needed to be handled. But I wasn't sure that my step father would believe me. And so I kept that quiet until I was an adult. And, and so because of that, then he was allowed to abuse other people, you know, because nobody, nobody knew, nobody put a stop to things. And so as an adult, those memories were repressed until I had my own children.
And I remember when those memories started to surface, I remember telling my husband, Dan, I'm not sure that I, like I woke up from a dream and I thought, was that a dream or was this real? But I knew in my soul, it was real. And so about that same time, some other abuse victims were coming forward and this was starting to surface and my mother knew about it, but she didn't know that I had been abused.
And so there's a, ⁓ I won't go into details about the story about how it all came together because it's really not relevant, but it's just the Holy Spirit, you know, planting all of that at the right time so that all of the stories, you know, came together at the right time and were able to be addressed and we were able to go through some family counseling and have a lot of healing around that. But again, I think when I think about my parents' divorce, I think a lot of people thought, one, I was so young that there would not be repercussions.
And two, I had this wonderful stepfather, you know, and no memory of life before him, without him. And so I think most people would have dismissed it and said, well, she's just a really resilient child. There's no, you know, no reason to worry about, you know, whatever the repercussions of the divorce would be for her. And here I was abused and there's a repercussion of the divorce, I'm afraid to tell. And so I think that's really important too for adults to remember that it doesn't matter.
you know what the story is there are always repercussions you that children have wounds from that divorce and so it's just important to remember that and be sensitive to that.
Joey (25:01)
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so openly. Just to maybe give people the context, so remind me how old were you when that happened and then how old were you when it came out?
Brandy (25:49)
So I was about four, think, I'm thinking and remembering it correctly, about four when it happened. And then, and I was really fortunate. It wasn't consistent. It happened one time and, you know, praise Jesus for that. But, but like I said, the abuse continued with other victims after that. And I was, let's see, let me think how long being that John was about our oldest son was about two. So I was probably 24.
You know, so like 20 years later when it came out, 20, yeah, 23, 24. Okay. Yeah. Never had one thought of it before. Yeah. That morning that I woke up from the dream and had the conversation with my husband.
Joey (26:31)
I know you were so young and it's so fascinating how the mind of like a little girl or you know, a little boy could reason to that level of like, don't want to share this with mom because I'm afraid that the divorce will happen again. You know, we'd go through that all again. Man, it just breaks your heart to think of that. And even as good of a job as your mom had done to like make sure, you know, she had open communication with you. So it's definitely, I think a wake up call.
to parents, to everyone that this is a serious thing that has repercussions that maybe are hidden that you can't really put your finger on.
Brandy (27:04)
And sometimes I think too, Joey, you know, because I was on the outside appeared to be a really resilient child, which really was because of this perfectionism. So I was a high performer in school, you know, my grades were always good. I made friends, you know, with other children easily. So there wouldn't have been those telltale signs that there would have been any distress. You know, most people would have just moved on to it. You know, they would have wouldn't have worried about me.
And so I think that's just, yeah, I mean, it just, yeah, a wake up call to adults who are involved with kids in any way, whether you're a mom and dad or, know, grandparents or aunt and uncle, you know, if you love children and they've been through any kind of trauma, yeah, it's important to have your eyes on them at all times and look for maybe even things that are not your telltale signs, you know, and have open conversations for sure.
Joey (27:55)
No, I love that. And I think that's one thing that I noticed in myself and my siblings, like we became really good at like hiding things and, know, sometimes out of self preservation protection, other times, just like you had mentioned not to like rock the boat and keep things as peaceful as they could be. ⁓ so I do think you need to, know, obviously have the good relationship to where if they want to talk to they will, but also maybe probe a little bit and ask questions that can kind of get to that. So I know we're, ⁓ I know we're talking decent amount about parents, but I think this is helpful.
overall, especially because we have people listening who like one day want to be parents or maybe they are new parents and they come from a broken family and they can, you know, perhaps apply some of this even if they themselves are growing like a really beautiful marriage and family and so because these principles apply I think across the board.
Brandy (28:40)
Absolutely, you know and I would just say too or if even if you're not in the place You know at this point to be married, you know, maybe that's still a goal in the future But you know if you have hidden things even that, know, like I said 23 24, you know, you can't really heal unless you bring things to the light and And so, you know, I can't imagine now, you know 24 years later if that was still hidden, you know There would have been a lot of missed opportunities for healing and I can't say
where I would be, know, where the other victims might be. You know, while it was hard to talk about that, it was important, you know, really important to talk about it and to bring it to the light. So I would just say, like you said, you know, sometimes children of divorce learn to hide things really well for whatever reason. But even if, you know, you are 24 years old, it's not too late to bring that out into the light and talk about it, you know, with somebody who loves you and cares about you and can help you heal.
Joey (29:37)
Love that. No, that's such a good principle of healing that, you like you said, bringing it into the light and then also, you know, don't be afraid to kind of have those difficult conversations or say the things that are uncomfortable. I heard someone say that, that like you're usually like one difficult conversation away from like some incredible healing and growth, one conversation away from, you know, leveling up to whatever that might look like in whatever area of life. And I think it's our unwillingness often to have those, to push through the discomfort and, you know, just be courageous in those situations that often.
keep us stuck and hold us back. So I love everything you said there. Thank you for going into that. I'm curious, you you mentioned perfectionism. You mentioned, yeah, just not wanting to rock the boat. I'm curious if there were any other ways in which kind of you were affected. And especially if you notice like, when did you have an awareness that there were these things in your life that you went through that came from a broken family, you went through all this dysfunction. There are other things that happened like you shared. Did you kind of come to this awareness you mentioned on the playground, but I'm curious if there was anything else.
Brandy (30:33)
I think, you know, just having those thoughts off and on, you know, as a child and then as a growing, you know, adolescent and then teen, just sort of longing for what would that be like. But, you know, as you grow and you get busy and you, you know, you get involved in different things, I think I was probably less aware or less concerned, maybe if you will. But I didn't recognize, you know, really what it was doing in my life. Like I didn't.
the perfectionism and this need to always be a peacemaker. I didn't really see that as a negative in any way when I was well, because it was praised, you know? It was always praised. And so I didn't see that as a result of trauma really until I was an adult and I had my first child. So really kind of about the same time that all of the other, you know, was coming to light, I was really starting – know, the Holy Spirit was really starting to
do some healing work, I think, in my soul by just slowly, bit by bit, bringing some of those things to light with me and just helping me see those things as woundedness so that you can heal from them. I would say it was becoming a mother. Wow. And then watching my husband be he's a fantastic dad. And here we've been married for, gosh, almost 27 years.
seeing like, ⁓ this is what, you know, a functioning intact family looks like and watching him be a father. I think that brought back a lot of the wound or brought up a lot of woundedness in me. And so yeah, it was in my adult years, you know, when I really started to see those things as woundedness. And I would say in my teen years too, ⁓ and then like early adult years dating, I didn't see this as a piece of my woundedness then, but I do now.
You know, this idea that I was always searching for male approval, you know, so my identity was always wrapped up in who I was dating, you know, how serious the relationship was. Um, I mean, I can look back and just see that as a trend, you know, from about age 15, maybe even younger on, know, yeah. Yeah.
Joey (32:49)
No, that makes so much sense. And I can relate on the opposite end of like seeking female approval. So yeah, I think that's a common struggle and thanks for sharing that. No, everything you're sharing just makes so much sense. I am curious if there were any emotional problems you struggled with or bad habits that you wanted to share in a little bit. We'll talk about relationships, but yeah, any emotional problems, bad habits.
Brandy (33:09)
The habit would be that, I think, jumping from relationship to relationship, you know, and just seeking approval in that regard and wrapping my identity, you know, in my relationships. That for sure became a really repetitive habit of mine. And that's probably, you know, that was probably the most destructive thing that I did, you know, as a result.
Joey (33:33)
No, that makes sense. I think it points to, think probably a lot of your mom's influence on you because one of the things that we have often shared on the show is that if you have a good relationship with one or both of your parents amidst these really rough situations of divorce and just high degrees of dysfunction in the family, there's a good chance that you're going to be able to cope pretty well with it. And so that's really beautiful. mean, your life could have looked very different. And so it's amazing that... ⁓
Brandy (33:58)
thought about that. Like what would life have looked like if she had not had the courage to walk away or even when she walked away if my stepfather had not come into the picture, you know, what would our life have looked like and it would have been vastly different, vastly different, know. So yeah.
Joey (34:16)
Yeah, no, and even just the ongoing like relationship and parenting that she provided you, it's just beautiful. And even on the step family, step parents side, that's such a mixed bag for a lot of people. A lot of people's experience of step parents isn't very good, if we're honest. And so it's really beautiful you have that. And not to, I don't mean to throw any step parents under the bus, there are some very good ones like you experienced, especially if you're listening right now. Thank you for being a good one.
But yeah, so that is so interesting. I guess if, is there any lessons or advice that you've learned when it comes to kind of navigating step family, step parents? I know you were so young, like you said, so it kind of felt like there wasn't a step family going on there. But I'm just curious if there's any lessons to someone listening right now that you'd want to pass along who's maybe dealing with a step mom, step dad, step sibling, step family situation.
Brandy (35:03)
I haven't really thought about that. I think it's just really important from the adult perspective to just work well together for the children's sake. I think honoring as much as you can what the children's desires are. I mean, I know when they're little, it's hard for them to know what's best for them. But I think being flexible with visitation and just avoiding as much bickering and fighting as possible from the adult perspective. For a kiddo,
I think, know, as much as possible, you know, if you can look for the good, and I think that's true in a lot of situations, negative situations, you know, if we look for the good, often we can find it, you know, even from really dark places, you know, maybe just being open to finding some good, even if the relationship with your step family is difficult, you know, just trying as much as possible. But then I also think.
If it's an unhealthy relationship, you know, when you're old enough, you know, you have to set some boundaries. I think that's really important. You know, you're not made to be a doormat either, you know, so.
Joey (36:12)
Yeah, that's good. No. And I'm going to put it on the spot with that, that's great advice of like setting the boundaries, especially once you have like more independence and obviously always set boundaries. But when you're younger, it can be hard. But once you have that independence, I totally agree. And in some cases that means, you know, I never a huge proponent of this because I think there's a lot of healing and growth and forgiveness that can happen. But if you, you know, if it's so toxic and you need to cut them out of your life, maybe that's the case. But in most situations, I think there's the
possibility of working towards rebuilding and, you know, at least slowly step by step growing a better relationship. But I love that advice about the boundaries. And then also you made me think of just this whole principle of in life, in every relationship, like whatever we praise and other people will almost always get repeated. And so I think there's something really good and beautiful about that of like praising the good things that we see, even if there's like a lot of bad, like praising the good and then hopefully that, you know, they'll become more and more like that good person that you're making them out to be in the book.
how to win friends and influence people. Dale Carnegie talks about that, about how it's really one of the powerful tactics of like influence is giving people a reputation to live up to. And so if you, you know, kind of pull out those good qualities, those virtues, and you, know, and without being dishonest, you kind of paint this portrait of like, that's your true identity, that's who you are, then typically, especially if you're in a position of influence,
that will motivate them more to stay true to that, to be consistent with that image that's being portrayed of them. So I think that those are really beautiful lessons and thanks for talking about your stuff, family. Before we move on, anything you'd add?
Brandy (37:38)
No, I would just say you're, I mean, you're so spot on about the words we speak over people. Gosh, I often would talk to my teachers, you know, about that. I mean, and I think that's true if you have any influence on anybody, you know, whether it be a child or an adult, you know, speaking, like you said, honest words of affirmation, not the corny stuff that's, you know, that's not true, but really speaking the words of affirmation and calling them to be their best self.
is very, very powerful.
Joey (38:10)
I love that. I was having that conversation with my dad recently. It was a text exchange and we were talking a little bit about the past and thought going too into it. That was like kind of a situation like we're describing where I was able to kind of affirm him in some of the things that he did right. And obviously there was a lot of brokenness and things that didn't go right. But I think there's something good about that being able to kind of pull that out. And again, not shying away from maybe having the difficult conversations because we did talk about that too. But, ⁓ and we have had conversations like that, but I think there is a lot of beauty to pull out the good. So super good. Thank you for.
going into all that and yeah, that book, if anyone's interested, How to Win Friends and Influence, people will teach you a lot about it. And one of the things I think he says in that book too, just to your point, is when you give compliments, when you affirm people, the more specific, the better. General compliments don't typically land super well with people and you always want them to be sincere. You never want to flatter. And so I think those are like great principles as well to whether you're dealing with a stepfather, stepmother, you know, or...
Anyone in your life, think those are good principles across the board. I want to talk a little bit more about relationships. So you mentioned kind of this, I don't know if we'd call it a relationship addiction. Like you were jumping kind of, you know, compulsion, whatever from relationship to relationship. Was there anything else like in your relationships in which ways in which you struggled or yeah, just anything you eventually had to outgrow, whether it's in your teen years or as a young adult.
Brandy (39:27)
Maybe I would just talk more about like wrapping your identity in that. Sure. ⁓ because, that was something, gosh, I would say probably wasn't all that long ago. mean, really relatively short time period ago in my adult years, you know, when I really recognized what that was, you know, and, and I know that our whole audience is not necessarily Christian or Catholic, but I am. And so my identity, you know, understanding that my identity comes from Christ.
and who I am in Christ and not from who I'm dating or, you know, or even gosh, wrapping my identity in what I do or who I'm married to or, who my children become. Because that can really become a nasty pattern. ⁓ And it really did for me because once I was married and secure in my marriage, well, then it was, you know, like, my identity is in my job or, you know, identity in my children and how well they perform. And so I think that.
was tough, know, because it does become sort of a habit and it becomes, you know, just a repeatable thing that you just sort of, you once you leave it behind in one thing, you know, you just go searching for it somewhere else, you know, and so I think that's really important, you know, just you got to know who you are independent of all of those things, you know, who are you at your most authentic self and that's hard. I mean, that's a really hard question to answer, but you kind of have to get outside of all the noise, I think, to figure that out.
So for me, that was a very spiritual experience, you know, might not be for somebody else, but for me, it definitely meant, you know, really growing in my relationship with Christ to figure out who am I.
Joey (41:05)
Beautiful. Okay. And it was through getting to know God better building that relationship that you got to know who you were.
Brandy (41:12)
Yeah, for sure. Lots of prayer, lots of scripture. And I think too, Joey, because of, you know, that there's a lot of deep father wounds there for me. I think that's another reason why growing in my faith, you know, the Holy Spirit was so gracious to take that really slow with me and to allow me to develop in my relationship, my identity to God as my father in a really slow, easy pace.
Because that's hard. mean, when you don't, even though I had this great relationship with my stepfather, still do, and he's fabulous, there's still a wound there, a father wound there that, you know, your biological father failed you in so many ways. And so how do you relate to God as a father? Again, that took, you know, a lot of years in my adulthood to figure that out.
Joey (42:05)
sure and I think a lot of people listening right now feel the same and was there, like you said it was gradual but I'm trying to understand was there anything that maybe you haven't mentioned so far that was really pivotal to kind of overcoming maybe any barriers or resistance to that relationship with God as a father because it is a really hard thing. I definitely struggled with that myself and still do to some extent but haven't made a lot of progress like you as well. So yeah, I'm curious if there's any like
pivotal moment or anything in particular that helped you make that shift. For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault, guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face.
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Brandy (43:39)
I think probably a lot of the shift happened when I was able to forgive my dad for, you know, his shortcomings. And that came about just in lots of prayer, scripture. I have a fantastic spiritual director. I've had fantastic priests come into my life, you know, that I've been able to counsel with. I've had some counseling, probably not as much as I could benefit from, but some. And
So my mother actually told me this story and it was actually, her mother was very staunch Irish Catholic and my mom's father died when she was six. So my grandmother raised eight children by herself. So she had to be tough, know, had to be tough. And my mom grew up kind of feeling like her mother, my grandmother was a little bit blind emotionally. So she had a counselor one time say, if your mother was blind, would you still love her? And my mother said, well, of course.
And she said, well, she is, she's a little bit emotionally blind, you know, to your knees. And so that was really healing for my mother. And she shared, happened to share that story with me. And I think that was really important to being able to forgive my father because I just recognized that, you know, he's coming from lots of woundedness as well. I have not, I could be wrong. I don't want to judge his relationship with Christ in any way, but I don't think he's church going or, I don't think he has that spiritual component so much.
lean on like I did. So don't think there's been a lot of counseling and things like that. So I don't know how much healing he's done. So I would just say, you know, I just don't hold him accountable for that anymore. I did, but I don't because I think he did the best he could do, you know, with what he knew, what he had known his whole life. ⁓ And I've watched him jump from relationship to relationship. And so I just think, you know, there's just a lot missing for him. And so I think
My ability to relate to God as Father really changed when I was able to forgive my own Father, you know, for the woundedness that He caused.
Joey (45:38)
That's really good and yeah, no, I could definitely see how that would help so much. I'm curious, was there a particular moment, like what was that process of forgiveness like for you in particular if we can get a little bit more granular? Like, you know, when did you become aware that this would be a good idea? Were there certain steps you took? Was it something that was kind of like you made this declarative statement of like, I forgive you and then you've, I don't know. Yeah, but talk me through all that.
Brandy (46:00)
So I think the process really started again, going back to when I became a mother, like I've talked about, you know, with and watching my husband be this incredible father. So somewhere in there, I began to have a desire, you know, to forgive him. And I would just say this about forgiveness, because I know that's hard. That's hard when somebody has caused you a lot of pain. Forgiveness, though, is really, I mean, while obviously it's helpful to the other person, I feel like forgiveness is so good for the person that's
holding all the pain because it allows you to release all of that, you know, and let go of it. And so I would just say, you know, like, if you don't do it for the other person's sake, you know, work through that process for your own sake. But my process really started when I became a mother. And then just slowly after that, yeah, there were, ⁓ I've actually written him. I didn't feel like I could say it to his face for whatever reason that was hard. So I've actually written him and told him, I forgive you for everything.
And so yes, there were declarative statements like that. And then also just after that, I would just say forgiveness is really an ongoing process, especially when the wounds are really, really deep. you know, those wounds rear their ugly head every once in a while. And you just have to be willing to say at that point, okay, I'm feeling this way. You know, if you are spiritual, taking that to the Lord.
and letting him help you work through that, sharing it all with him because he's ultimately the healer. And then just working through that process maybe again, and it can be really painful, but just reminding yourself, okay, ⁓ I have forgiven him once. Maybe there's some ongoing pain. Maybe there's some things that I still need to forgive and just continuing to work through that process. So I think it's important to view it not from a one and done kind of thing, because it's...
It's really not that at all. And it really is an ongoing process. And there have been memories then, you know, that would come up and cause some pain again. And so then I just have to stop and, kind of process through those things. ⁓ but yeah.
Joey (48:03)
Okay, yeah, no, couldn't agree more with that's been my experience too with forgiveness. It's certainly like a messy process. think there's, I've talked on the show about some different advice from great wise mentors. And yeah, I think like you said, the definition I've kind of worked with of forgiveness is like, it's this ongoing decision to release someone of a debt that they, feel they owe you because of a wrong they committed against you. And kind of in that kind of rough definition is like ongoing, like you said, it's not one and done decision, meaning it's not a feeling.
We can get confused about it thinking that one day when I feel it, I'll forgive them. Not that you need to force forgiveness, but I think it's certainly more of a decision than it is an emotion. Though there is, like you said, a lot of freedom that can come from it, but that's a byproduct. not what comes first. then, yeah, and then just like when it comes to the justice component of it, I think often people are worried about letting people off the hook or, yeah, I don't know, kind of making perhaps maybe that forgiveness is allowing them to like get away from, get away with it and not...
you know, maybe be corrected or something like that, which definitely is a longer conversation. But I think there is a lot of beauty, especially if there's no harm being done further that needs to be stopped. Cause in that situation would say, yeah, no, there certainly should be that sort of justice. But yeah, think there's something really good and beautiful about looking at forgiveness and mercy, which is it's rooted in as like going beyond justice. We're surpassing justice. going beyond it. We're not like neglecting it because we have the right to maybe hurt this person back. We have the right to enforce, you know, whatever justice is due, but
But going beyond it is certainly being the better person being, you know, it requires so much strength and virtue. It's not a weakness. It's not something that's like, you know, I'm gonna let you off the hook. It's no, I'm using all the strength within me to not, you know, seek revenge.
Brandy (49:46)
And I have to say not that I want my dad to suffer. I don't. think, I mean, that's the very definition of love, know, willing the good of the other. definitely, I mean, I want him to heal. I want him to feel released from all of that for sure. But as far as justice goes and, you know, thinking about that, I can only imagine his pain, honestly, because he's missed out on
You know, watching my family grow, getting to know my family, getting to know my kids, you know, those are his grandkids and he doesn't know them. And so as far as justice goes, I am sure that he has suffered, you know, because of his choices. I have no doubt that he has. And I hope that, you know, that he can let that go and feel that release and not continue to suffer.
Joey (50:35)
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during this time, but most of all, the guide helps you feel competent and confident in offering help. And so get the free guide at restoredministry.com slash 10 tips, restoredministry.com slash 10 tips, either the number or the letters, or just click on the link in the show notes. Yeah, no, that's beautiful. And that's so merciful of you too, because like we were saying, I guess another definition of forgiveness could be kind of giving up our right to some form of revenge or some form of like getting that person back when they hurt us.
Yeah, I mean, we just naturally as humans want that. So I think that's really good. And it's really fascinating, like, obviously, you know, speaking to especially our Catholic audience, we would say that, you know, we do believe that in the end, after, in, you know, in the afterlife and eternity, after the world ends, like there will be an accounting for all the good and the bad. So justice will be served. Should it be served on earth? Yes, yes, absolutely. Justice should be served on earth. But we know especially that that's going to happen in the end. That's what we believe as Catholics. And so I think that often will, it's perhaps a little bit easier to
know, give forgiveness in that situation, like let go of like, okay, I'm gonna let go of this revenge I met Juan or this vindictive feeling or emotion. And then the point you made, which is also so true that so often the dysfunction, the bad decisions, the bad habits are punishments in themselves. The misery that they lead to like truly is horrible and a form of, I guess we could say a form of justice.
Brandy (52:21)
Yeah, because, you know, forgiveness can be there, you know, but we're never free from the consequences of our decisions. I mean, the consequences are there. I mean, so, you know, good or bad.
Joey (52:32)
Right. Yeah, there are certainly punishments in themselves in some ways, but it's so good. know with the little time we have left, I'm curious, you shared a lot so far, but I'm curious if you would add anything additional when it came to healing. Like what else did you do? What else was really like helpful when it came to bringing healing and restoration? I'm holding this into your life.
Brandy (52:50)
So again, the Holy Spirit's timing is amazing. A couple years back, we were just going through some other hard things in our family and had a very wise, well, two very wise priests who visited with Dan and I and really spoke into our lives and gave us some really good tools. And they thought this one particular priest is still our priest. He thought he was giving me this tool.
to me through the current situation, you know, but he had no idea how much it would help in healing in this situation. And that was the Restore the Glory podcast with, you know, Dr. Bob and Jay Kim. And from that, I found the Abiding Together podcast. So I'm a little bit of a podcast junkie. that's how I found your podcast initially. So, but I found a lot of healing through both of those podcasts and then a lot of what
Dr. Bob Schuetz has written about healing. so understanding the anatomy of a wound was huge for me. And that allowed me to go deeper than I'd really ever gone before. So where there was a lot of healing before, just through my spiritual life and my walk with Christ, this allowed me to understand a little bit more about the psychological side of things, but yet also bringing in the spiritual component with it. And that was
incredibly healing for me and has been healing for my husband too. He also comes from a broken family. And so I think he's found a lot of healing. So through what Dr. Bob shoots and Jake Kim have done. so yeah, between those two podcasts and then even just listening to yours, Joey, mean, just to hear it's so healing to hear people tell their story and to know you're not alone. That's, that's huge.
Joey (54:37)
I'm really happy that we've been able to help you, but no, I couldn't recommend this podcast more. haven't listened to Tunda Binding Together, but I've heard amazing things about it. And Sister Miriam has been on the show. We'll link to that podcast. Great show. Dr. Bob's been on multiple times. We did talk about the anatomy of the wound on the show. And so we'll link to that as well. And then yeah, I was ⁓ on their podcast. So we'll link to that if anyone's interested as well, because that was a really enjoyable conversation with them. But that makes so much sense. ⁓ You mentioned therapy. I just want to touch on that.
briefly. Yeah, how was that helpful and what type of therapy did you go through? Curious about all that.
Brandy (55:09)
I mine must have just been cognitive behavioral therapy. You know, when the divorce happened, my mom sought out help from a psychologist and used a lot of the things that she gained from that with me, which was wonderful. So sort of a little bit of indirect therapy, I guess, if you will. And then when the abuse came out, my parents immediately put the whole family in counseling and that was also very healing.
for that process. So then since then I have done some therapy on my own. My husband and have done some therapy together and he's done some on his own. We live in a really small town. There aren't a lot of resources around here. My preference would probably just because I am Catholic to always find a Catholic counselor. Mainly just I want somebody who, you know, their belief system aligns with my belief system and the idea of bringing the spiritual component into the psychological
realm like we've talked about with Dr. Rob Schutze and Jay Kim. That's so powerful. I mean, to have the two come together. I've just never experienced healing like that. As an adult, went in search of a counselor who would incorporate the spiritual side and have… I didn't find a Catholic counselor here, but a Christian counselor and she was good. Probably didn't go as far as I would have liked for her to go. I would love to do like…
EMDR and like, you know, some of these other things that are, that are more intense, but that's, that's what I've had experience with here, you know, locally. And it's been good.
Joey (56:39)
Good, no, I'm happy. Was there anything else in terms of people in your life who helped you heal or tools or tactics, content, anything like that before we move on?
Brandy (56:48)
Yeah, I mean, I've just, the Lord has been so gracious to give me really beautiful women in my life. ⁓ that I've been able, you know, of course, my mom, talked about my mom and being able to have open conversations with her, my grandmother, her mother, while she was alive, she's no longer living, but ⁓ she had a huge impact on my life. And, and, and then I have, my mom was the youngest of eight. So I have a number of aunts and uncles and
those relationships have also been really healing. So I've been really fortunate to have really strong adults in that regard. And then I've had some beautiful women step into my life who were like my mentors at work. As I came up through the education pipeline, who have now become one in particular, she's like a second mom to me, know, so to have that to lean on and then have had some beautiful friendships with women who have, you know, been through some similar trauma. And so just
It's just really healing to have people that can speak into your life in a positive way and who've maybe been through some of the same things. I would assume it's the same for men. need those people who you can relate to and they can relate to you as well.
Joey (57:56)
No, no, we could do it on our own. don't need any help. No, no, absolutely. Yeah. It's so interesting to see the trend and all these, you know, dozens and dozens of interviews we've done. It's often like the same answer. It's really cool. Like love is healing. People are healing. And I wanted to highlight a little bit more. You already touched on this and we can go as deep as you want with it, but just like how healing your marriage has been, you know, just your relationship with Dan, no marriages without.
⁓ struggle, I know that personally, but there's so much good and beauty that can come from it. know for me, like, yeah, marriage has been hard in some ways, but it's certainly made me a better man. And, you know, I'm really grateful for my wife. I'm grateful for the marriage that we have. And so, yeah, I'm curious if you'd talk a little bit about that. You mentioned how just seeing him as a father was really helpful in healing, but yeah, what else would you mention?
Brandy (58:40)
It's so funny because as much as my mom was so good to have deep conversations with me about whatever, she's not really like physically affectionate. And so I didn't grow up a hugger and then Dan, when I met Dan, he and his whole family are very like physically affectionate. So, you know, it's been funny to kind of morph into this, this person who loves, you know, hugs, long hugs and that sort of thing. And our kids are like that too. They love physical affection. So.
I mean, even that, you know, has been really healing, I think, for me. then also just, yes, and you're right, no marriage is without struggle. I mean, it is a saint maker, to be sure. But I think because, so I know data would say that our statistics would say that Dan and I are like probably doomed because we both come from, you know, broken families.
think it probably made us also both really resilient in marriage because we were both really just not willing to give up. So in the hard times and we've had our fair share of really hard times, just like everybody else, you know, we just, we just continually said to each other, like, it's not an option. So we need to go get help or, know, whatever we need to do, you know, to make this work, to get over this hurdle.
I will say though, I think because we both come from broken families, we were not good communicators at all. I think we were afraid to have conflict, which I think is probably normal given both of our situations because conflict, think to both of us signaled, uh-oh, there's a problem and maybe there's a divorce looming. And because we weren't willing to go there, we just weren't willing to have conflict, know? And that was not healthy at all. So, I mean, I would say as your audience, you know,
as they are coming maybe from broken families and then moving into their own marriages from the very beginning, just know conflict is okay. It's actually good, you know, ⁓ and find a good counselor or a good minister, you know, somebody, a good mentor couple, somebody who can help you see conflict for the good and learn how to actually have conflict in a positive way because we did not have those skills at all. I mean, I would say here we are.
lot of years into marriage and we're still learning that. It's still really hard for us. We both really shy away from it. I think it's just because we're a product of marriages where conflict was really unhealthy and not resolved well. But marriage has been healing for sure.
Joey (1:01:19)
Beautiful, yeah, no, I get that about like the whole fear of like conflict leads to permanent separation. it's like, better avoid that, but you can avoid the permanent separation and still dive into the conflict is the lesson that I'm hearing from you. Was there like one thing that helped you push into that a little bit more and just be willing to have that conflict? Like one skill lesson resource, something like that, if anyone's wondering.
Brandy (1:01:37)
Dan and I went through a marriage retreat, if you will. was an ongoing, was retrovise actually what it's called. We did that maybe seven or eight years ago. That was really good for us, sort of taught us how to have conversations where there was maybe some conflict and have those in a productive way. also, I know you just interviewed JP DeGance. I also work through our parish with Communio. And so we've done a marriage retreat.
through our parish's relationship with Communio that was excellent. And they actually sent every couple away with like these little cards that like gave an actual like cadence to the conversation where there's conflict and like gave really helpful tools. So that was really beneficial. ⁓ And I would just say like it's never ending. You need to keep learning. I think there's never gonna, if there's ever a day where Dan and I like decide to
learning about each other or how to have conversations with each other. We're probably in dangerous territory. know, marriage retreats, we've had, had, I think I mentioned this, but two fabulous priests who really spoke into our marriage beautifully. One still does. He's still here. Yeah, all of that has been really helpful. And then some counseling that we did together was really helpful. And then we made it a point, we didn't do this when our kids were younger. I will tell on us, we were not good about date night, but
And I think that was not, you people would tell us, Oh, you need to be intentional about date night. just get, we have four kids, we were busy. Yeah. Um, but we have made it a point. mean, every Saturday night is date night for us. And, um, our kids know that and almost nothing comes in front of that. You know, it's really rare that we give that up and that just gives us, and we don't do anything fancy. It's usually just dinner out somewhere and it's not even expensive, you know, but it's just time alone.
to speak to each other and we need to talk about sometimes it's not anything really important and sometimes it is things that are really important.
Joey (1:03:36)
No, so good. And I love how like the date thing doesn't need to be complicated. That's a really good lesson there too. But one of the things just I want to convey too is all of these like problems that occur within marriages, there are solutions for, and it's not that you aren't capable, to anyone listening, it's not that you're not capable of handling conflict well. It's that you don't know how to handle conflict well. It's a skill deficiency. It's a virtue deficiency. And so you need to learn that skill just like any other skill and then practice it.
And with time, even though there's a lot of emotion involved in these things, so it might be harder, you can actually get better at it and perhaps even master it. And so I think that that's a really powerful lesson because I think so often we think in like the black and white and binary, like either have that ability or you don't, but it's like, no, it's actually just a continuum. It's like, how well do you handle conflict?
Maybe not very well at all. And that's okay. That's where you're at, but you can learn to get better at handling conflict, but it's never like a switch on and off of like you handle conflict well, or you don't handle conflict or you don't know how to, or you do know how to, it's, it's truly a continuum.
Brandy (1:04:37)
Yeah, you said it perfectly.
Joey (1:04:39)
Awesome. I, um, so I could talk to you a lot more. One thing I was just going to mention to anyone wondering what the statistic is, it's 189 % according to one study, 189 % more likely to get divorced. If you come from a divorce family, you marry someone who is also from a divorce family. you're breaking stats or I love it. And that was the least one city that found it. And, uh, no, it's so beautiful to see people who are just flying in the face of that. So thank you. I know we've been talking for a while now. I just want to close off and say,
You know, if you, if you could talk to your parents and have kind of an honest conversation with them to whatever degree you're comfortable, what would you say? What would you want them to know?
Brandy (1:05:15)
mother, I would just say thank you. Yeah, I mean, she, I'll get emotional talking about it. ⁓ I just see her as really brave, really brave. And she always put me first. And I'm just really grateful for that. To my dad, I would just say, I hope that you've, you know, you find peace and that you understand that there's nothing, I don't hold anything against you.
Joey (1:05:45)
Beautiful. Thank you so much for just sharing so vulnerably and for being an example of, you know, coming from a messy, broken situation and being able to build like a beautiful life and just become like a virtuous person. I look up to you in so many ways and I really appreciate you coming on the show. So gosh, I'm sure we could talk more. But I just wanted to say thank you and I want to leave you with the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you give to the younger you out there listening right now?
Brandy (1:06:13)
You're not alone. you know, you're not there are other people struggling with all the same questions you have and you can make it. You're not doomed. And I think I would just say to, you know, open up, talk to people who love you, share things that you need to share. Don't hold it in. You don't have to be perfect all the time. You know, perfectionism and performance is not love. And
you know, that there's healing on the other side.
Joey (1:06:47)
That wraps up this episode. By the way, if you want to share your story with us like Brandy did, we'd love to hear it. And if you want, we can even post your story as an anonymous blog article on our website. You can go to restoredministry.com slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes to share your story. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. really appreciate that feedback. And that also helps people find.
In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
