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Joey (00:46)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. What if your parents' divorce didn't just your family but left you quietly carrying the blame? Most people think that the hardest part of a divorce is the day that it happens, but honestly, it's the confusion, it's the pain, it's the pressure to act like everything's fine.

and lingering thought was it somehow my fault. In today's episode we unpack all of that, especially the unspoken guilt and anger that kids from broken homes often carry for years. My guest is Jim Havens. He was 14 when his parents split and he told himself he'd be fine. He told himself, you know, I know this isn't my fault, but that wasn't the whole story. Over time he spiraled, he made mistakes and tried to fill that hole in his heart until one lonely night.

everything changed. That night led him to freedom. That night led him to healing freedom from his addiction and eventually becoming a husband, father of six and a radio host. And so if you've ever asked yourself, was it somehow my fault that my parents split or can I really build a healthy marriage after seeing my parents marriage collapse? This conversation is for you. Now in this episode, we do talk a lot about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this show for a while knows

This is not a strictly religious podcast. so wherever you're at, I'm really glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you would be this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God parts, you're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. And with that, here's the conversation.

Jim, so good to have you on the show. Welcome. I'm excited to dive into your story. I usually start as, you know, what led to your parents' separation and divorce?

Jim (02:30)

Thank you, Joey, great to be here.

So, yeah, I was about 14 when my parents separated and sat me down and talked to me about that. And then I think I was 15 when they were officially divorced. And so what led to it, hard to know still, but from my perspective as a child, I just remember there was quite a bit of fighting. You know, I remember

falling asleep at night and hearing yelling and name calling and things like that. And so, you know, as a young person, you don't know what's normal, what's not normal. Just kind of seemed like, okay, you know, don't, this is going on. I remember though, a sadness, you know, I remember crying myself to sleep some nights as that was going on. So I don't know, you know, I don't know a lot about what it was all about or what the conflicts were all over. But, but yeah, I know that

It was by the time they sat me down and said, hey, we're gonna be separated. I think there was already some sort of a separation that had occurred for some period before that that I don't really recall. But I think from hearing kind of the story back, there was a period of that. But there was a time, yeah, when they sat me down at this one particular time, the final separation, I guess. And I remember at that point, the sense of good. I mean, I'm 14 at that point, I gotta have a...

You know, I'm carrying some baggage, some anger chip on the shoulder, not knowing where to go with a lot of things, but sort of ⁓ a defiant good. It'll be better, you know, thinking, you know, I'll see you later to my dad and good, the fighting will stop and that will be over. And then also thinking this isn't going to affect me. This isn't going to be a difficult thing for me. I remember at the time seeing various talk shows and there'd be children of divorce on talk shows back then, daytime talk shows.

Seems the culture was kind of dealing with it to some degree. And I remember seeing some of those things as a kid and a lot of it would be the children crying at the big point and saying, you know, them being told it's not your fault, you know, the title, the title of your book, which is so important and is such a big part of my story actually. But at that point, I remember thinking that's weakness. I've seen that I'm not going to be that of course it's not my fault. And this will probably be a good thing.

And that's what I recall. of course, it was not a good thing as things unfolded from there. And I wasn't as strong as I thought or had the ability to handle it like I thought I would. And all that would unfold.

Joey (05:12)

No, thank you for sharing so openly and I'm tracking right with you can relate on so many levels and I think that's one of the particular challenges with divorce and separation is that as children, you know, we don't always know why or on the other end of the spectrum.

we know way too much information about, you know, what led up to the separation and the divorce. And, you know, maybe we're kind of pelted with all sorts of details that just aren't for kids to know that we don't need to know. So I think that's something really, really interesting. And your response is unique, but it makes sense in so many ways, especially kind of given what you had seen around you. I'm curious for context to set the scene a little bit more. How many siblings do you have and what number are you?

Jim (05:52)

two siblings, so an older sister, about a year and a half older than me, and then a younger brother, about eight years younger than me. And so I'm, right in the

Joey (06:01)

That sense. And you said, you know, 14 years old is a separation, 15 years, 15 year old divorce. And how old are you now for everyone? Okay. Nice. And I'm curious too, you mentioned there was fighting. You mentioned there was, you know, it sounded like things got pretty dysfunctional. Would you categorize it as high conflict? Like was there abuse and hitting going on between your parents or like, obviously they were arguing and that's like, you know, could qualify as high conflict. But I'm curious if it was more of something like.

Jim (06:08)

Joey (06:30)

Growing up you knew that yeah they fight but everything else is fine or if you knew like no no this is like a bad situation a dangerous situation something needs to change.

Jim (06:37)

Nothing like that. mean there was no physical abuse at all that I'm aware of. It was verbal and it was I think you know it was both sides but there was I would say in particular at that time a lot of anger seemed like my dad was carrying and and they you know they got married when they were young they were 19 and then I think I was probably born you know their early 20s maybe 22 23 something like that so yeah I mean I think they there was a lot

that they were carrying. Again, I didn't realize any of that at the time. Just trying to make sense of what is this life, what is going on here? And so, yeah, I didn't really know what to make of it, but I knew, yeah, that something was wrong. And my dad, he also wasn't, I would say he wasn't around a lot as I was growing up. And so that was also an aspect of it. And then my mom worked.

quite a bit as well and into the overnight as a x-ray technician. So they were kind of like ships passing in the night, I think in a lot of ways. And then we were just kind of in the middle and going to public school and just, parents weren't really around very much. And I guess maybe that was out of perceived necessity financially. I don't know, there was a lot going on there, but yeah, I just knew.

I think looking back that it was very clear. get a real sense of human nature and that look, we were made for love. We want to be loved. And of course in our families, that's where we're supposed to learn all about that, to be loved well and to learn how to love. And when that's dysfunctional and that's not really taking place as it ought to be, then of course there's going to be a lot of problems.

Joey (08:29)

Yeah, you had mentioned how your approach was to kind of muscle your way through it to be tough to be strong You know, thankfully knew it wasn't your fault, which was definitely a good thing But it hit you harder than you had expected Was there a moment when you realized how much it was weighing on you?

Jim (08:44)

Yeah, I guess there definitely was a very big moment for me. Anyhow, a lot of it is all tied up with learning what it is to be a man and your dad not really being there. And then, you you kind of lose all authority structure. So to me, it was kind of just being thrown to the world was the sense of it and finding community with my friends at the time that I think all had various levels of dysfunction.

in their own families that they were trying to deal with and not really knowing how none of us really being strongly centered on Christ, even though I was in a Catholic family, it was mostly going through the motions and not a sense that this was real, not even in the parish life that I was seeing when I would go to Mass on Sundays. So it was almost like an anti-witness. It's like the adults are all telling you, know, kind of playing this game, almost like Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, something that they tell kids and then you grow up and you realize nobody actually believes this.

So that was kind of the sense I had and just being like, okay, well, I'm on my own to sort of figure this out. And what are the images of manhood I see around like professional wrestling and athletes and stuff like that. And then trying to, you know, just figure out life with my friends. But then after high school, was, I was in a situation where, yeah, things, things weren't going real well for me. The fruits weren't real good in my life. A lot of

struggles based on going the way of the world and falling into various things that the world says is pretty normal, but that I would come to know serious sins, you know, and so ⁓ not in a good spot and and a lot of that then, you know, even cracks where this is not even acceptable in a worldly way where at one point, you know, I got I was 19 years old and I was, you know, driving had a little too much to drink and I was driving and I was speeding and I got a DUI.

over the legal limit. so that was happening, things like that. And so there were cracks where it wasn't even I could hide it in a worldly way anymore that things were, that there were problems. So I ended up in North Carolina with my cousin actually, where he was down there a few years older than me. And that allowed me to get away. I just, I was loading trucks for like $10 an hour, not knowing where I was going, what was going on. And then I

prayed sincerely one night for the first time in a long time and what had happened was I just had a quiet, lonely moment, lonely night, which I hadn't had a lot of. Mostly I was going out with friends and stuff every second I had when I was back home. So to be separated from all that was a great blessing. And then to have this quiet, lonely evening where I'm by myself in the bedroom there and I just start writing out my thoughts.

and they focused around my parents divorce. And I never did that before, just had a sense to start doing that. And as I did that, I came to realize some stuff that I wasn't really very aware of. And one of those things that I came to realize is that this, yeah, this was really troubling me deep down. And so came to that sense and started shedding some tears and realizing

Yeah, that I was deeply deeply hurt by all this and there was something more going on here and so Then I just had this sense to turn to God and just say look if you are real I want to know Jesus if you're real I want to know and I'll follow you if you're real But you got to let me know and I did have this overwhelming sense of his presence that was just unexplainable that was just very different and very clear and so for whatever reason I turned in the next moment and and said Mary if you're real

I want to know. And again, had this overwhelming sense of her presence and both in such a way that they were always there. They've always been there with me, just waiting for me to turn to them and they were arms wide open to receive me. So that was a big, a big night for me. And it answered some questions, but it started me down a journey of a lot of other questions.

that I needed to figure out and it's not like I came back to the Catholic Church right after that, I wasn't really sure. And so it led me down a certain path that ultimately though, three years later I did come back to the sacramental life of the Catholic Church and went to confession and received the Eucharist in a state of grace for the first time since I was a little kid. And that's where I did experience a very miraculous experience of the sacramental life and the reality of Jesus and the Catholic Church.

And then that just propelled me from there. But there was nothing easy about any of it. It was an uphill, a very difficult uphill climb out of the mess that I had made of my life. But Jesus is real and he made himself very clearly present to me. I just know without his help, without the fact that he is real, there's no possible way I could have ever changed the areas of my life.

that actually ended up changing in such ways that things that were the biggest weaknesses in my life over time with him became areas of great strength and immense freedom. I would never think that was possible. So that's one of the things of hope that I just want to make sure to always share with everybody that it is real and that you, things that you think are impossible.

for you to get out of. You can, by God's grace, just keep, don't give up, keep going with Him. And there is freedom that is unbelievable that you would not believe is real, but it is real. So just wanna encourage people.

Joey (14:35)

Beautiful. Thank you. That's so good. I, yeah, I'm so happy you had that transformation in your life. You know, some people go years and years and years without any sort of transformation. So it's so beautiful that you had that, you know, relatively soon after everything broke apart with your family. One interesting point that I love your thoughts on. One thing we noticed in the young people we're working with is so often because of the fracture,

at home, the parents getting divorced, separating, or maybe just things being so messy that the parents act divorce, even though they stay married. One of the biggest things I think that is missing or that's taken from us kids in those situations is that we lack like the mentorship and the guidance that we're meant to receive from our parents. And from what I hear in your story, your friends kind of filled that role for better, for worse. And that was the same with me. You know, after my parents split, I didn't trust dad, didn't trust mom, ended up spending a lot of time with my sports buddies who weren't good for me. That led me to, you know,

pornography and other sins and bad habits. But they kind of became my mentor of sorts. And then over the years, my mom definitely stepped into certain roles to her credit for sure. then I thankfully was able to find other men in my life who were able to step into that role of kind of a father figure and helped me immensely. Gosh, I can't say enough good about that. But I'm curious, your thoughts on this whole missing mentorship that we're meant to receive from our parents.

Jim (15:53)

Yeah, it is a very difficult thing to try to, ⁓ I think, make up for. Yeah. Because it's so essential to us that we need our parents. There's a reason that it's designed the way it is for good reason. it would and it does work really well when it's working, when everything is working properly. It's so beautiful. The image of family life that is meant to be. But yeah, there's a lot of.

ways that can go wrong, a lot of dysfunction. I guess, again, I want to say to a big part that was helpful to me was really reflecting on my parents' lives and thinking, realizing that so much that they weren't able to hand on to me, they had not really properly received or understood. And in some ways, even I think of my dad in particular, he never knew his dad growing up. And so in some ways, at least his

presence to some degree, he was able to give me more than what he had. he, I just think, how do you know how to be a father without having a father? It's very difficult. So that's not something I don't think that your friends can make up. Your peers can make up in those relationships, even if they're very good relationships. And mine weren't that, you know, they were good in some ways, but I mean, we genuinely cared about each other for sure. But at the same time, we didn't know.

We didn't know what was good, but we weren't, wasn't friendship based on virtue. ⁓ It was based on having fun and whatever form that takes. so, yeah, it's difficult. If you can have some virtuous male mentors in your life, of course, that's gonna be helpful to some degree. For me, I do wanna make sure that I mention this, because to me, this was probably the most difficult aspect of it all. And that was, and this is not normal, I don't hear this talked about much.

But the divorce was one thing. It was the way everybody handled the divorce which made things much, much worse for me. And that is that acting like, trying to make it seem like it's nothing to see here. Time to just kind of move on and shake it off. And so part of that ended up being with my mom remarrying very quickly and not even... ⁓

you this is important for those who are Catholic will understand that, maybe those who aren't, maybe not so much, but an understanding of the nature of marriage and how even if, you know, you get civilly divorced, if you are married validly in the church, if you have a Christian marriage, then you're still married, it's indissoluble. So there would need to be an annulment of some kind, which is a very process that basically ⁓

would take place to say that there was some sort of an impediment so that the marriage never actually validly existed in the first place. But not that there is Catholic divorce that can make something that is indissoluble, dissolvable. You can't. So there wasn't an annulment that took place, but yet my mom was then dating a guy and then very quickly she's marrying him. And my Catholic family on that side of the family that was definitely the more Catholic

part of the family that had handed on Catholicism to her, they all went along with it. That this was real and good and don't you want your mom to be happy. And I didn't know what the church taught and what was really going on at the time, but I knew something was wrong. Something seemed very wrong about the whole thing. And the pressure of, you know, don't you want your mom to be happy? Can't you just say that this is good? And it's like,

I was at war within myself. Of course I want my mom to be happy. Of course I love my mom. At the same time, something about this is not making me happy. Something about this seems wrong to me. And there was no one with whom I could voice that to or talk about that with or anything like that. It was just this pressure. And so, ⁓ you know, that all went down. Eventually there wasn't an element that would come maybe a year or so later.

I mean, guess then they, you know, you make it right by having the marriage brought into the church, but it was all really based on a lie and a farce that I was being pushed and forced to go along with. And so, ⁓ I think that did, that did some damage and then, you know, that relationship was very difficult with the man she married coming into the home. And, and so I'll share this one story because it is a big aspect of it. And that is that,

Yeah, you know, and again, nothing, I don't want to say anything against him. I also, you I don't know what he's carrying and what he grew up with and all of that. you know, trying to build, I'm still trying to work on building the best relationship I can with my mom and my dad and my mom's husband now and all of that. But I think this is important because maybe somebody has dealt with something similar. And that is, again, I remember the time when my parents sat me down, they were specifically saying, it's not your fault.

And I'm thinking to myself, yeah, I know that. Of course it's not my fault. You know, like why are they even saying that to me? But something seemed weird that they kept stressing it. It's almost like, yeah, somebody told them to say that or whatever. And then when this new man that my mom had married is in the home, there was a tension, just that you're living with this tension every day. And ⁓ just, you not good. And then one day, I guess he decides, you know, he's gonna assert himself. And so he comes into the room and he says,

get out of that chair and give me that remote control. And I was just sitting in the chair watching TV at the time. And I'm thinking to myself, what's going on? There's no way this guy is gonna talk to me like this and I'm not giving him the remote control. So he did try to physically push me out of the chair and take the remote control from me. And at that time, I'm probably 15, 16 years old. I'm developing into a young man physically and

And I've got some anger in me at that point as well. And it's like, there's no way this guy is getting the remote control. And I remember thinking, ⁓ you know, if this guy is going to take a swing, I'm going to win, I'm going to win this fight. And I think that's just what would have happened. But he, what he did instead, and this is what I wrote down actually in that journaling. When I had that time apart, I started writing about this experience and I still have it to this day. I just read it actually before, ⁓

Just to kind of refresh myself. I hadn't read it in a long time. And so I read that again and I wrote in there Yeah about if you would have taken a swing I would have won that fight, but he didn't take a swing instead. He ripped my heart out and he did that by saying What do you want to what do you want to ruin another marriage? Just like you did the last one and that was about as Bad as you could as you could cut me to the heart and so that brought up

It was like, whoa, what did he just say? And what does that mean? so after I had some time to reflect on that, it's like, where, obviously my mom, you know, expressed that to him at some point. And so really, then that did start to, I did start to carry that for a few years until I started journaling that one night that, yeah, maybe I did have something to do with this, you know?

And maybe this is my fault. And again, not being maybe totally conscious of all of that, but that was stirring in me from that point on. And then when I had time to really sit down and think about it again, I laid it out and when I looked at it all, it's like, ⁓ and kind of reflecting on all the reflection that sort of the times that had sort of come up and I thought about it, I realized, you know, there are things that they would fight about that I would hear them fight about a lot of times that were about me, you know?

the day that my report card would come home, not a good day in the family. That might be the night that there's a lot of yelling going on. And so that was maybe sparked by something about me, right? So it's not that I didn't have a role in them fighting about things at times. And it's certain that as a young person, various things that I would have done that would not have been helpful, I'm sure, to...

to the family life. And so, ⁓ yes, were there things that were imperfections and errors and faults of my own? Of course, but does that make it my fault that my parents weren't able to handle things in a healthy manner and be able to communicate well and solve problems and move on together? No, right? So,

Yes, there were things that were problems about me, but no, that doesn't make it my fault that my parents got divorced. And so, and they might, you and I brought that to both of them and the reactions were interesting that I, you know, maybe they do think that, you know, maybe they actually, I mean, of course they're not going to tell, tell me that when I come to them, but maybe my parents to some degree do think that I had a big role to play in them getting divorced. Maybe they don't, I don't know, but even if they do think that,

it doesn't make it true, right? And so that's kind of where I landed on it. And then, and then yeah, you know, a lot of taking responsibility for my own action. So just because that's not my fault doesn't mean there aren't a lot of things that are my fault that took place afterwards that yes, things were harder and more difficult than they would have been if I had an intact, healthy, loving family that had it all together. But at the same time, I made choices that were bad choices.

that also weren't choices that I had to make. So I have to take responsibility for those things. That's why the Sacrament of Confession was super powerful for me when I was able, finally ready to go there and just lay it all out and say, yeah, I'm guilty. I'm sorry for everything. I'm sorry for all that I've ever done. And to just lay it out and to receive the mercy of Christ, that was a first step in some major healing in my heart. And what I needed was a lot of healing.

The guy who thought he could keep it all together and wouldn't be hurt by this, no problem. Man, I was deeply hurting. So you can shove it down and you can try to pretend it's not there and try to ignore it, but it's in there. And I needed to pull it out and open it up and bring it to the divine physician and say, help me. And he was more than willing to pour in graces and blessing. And again, doesn't make it all easy and isn't a snap of the fingers. It's a process over time, but yeah, it's.

Amazing process. So yeah, praise God

Joey (26:48)

This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 430 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that.

horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado, and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary.

or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Black Zone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it. Yeah, no, thank you for sharing all that. I even just the psychological benefits of confession are wild. I think Jordan Peterson was talking about it recently. Essentially he's like, yeah, the Catholic Church has been doing like psychotherapy for 2000 years in the confessional. So it's wild even if you just look at like the human component of like, you know, kind of unburdening yourself of these like...

bad things in your life. So I think there's so much to be said there, but I want to focus on this whole struggle of feeling like your parents' support was your fault. And because I think, like you said, there's a lot of people who feel this right now. And even, you know, I've seen there's different like degrees of this, you know, on one end of the spectrum, maybe you have people who feel like, no, like, I feel totally like it was my fault. I caused it sort of thing. If I wasn't around, it wouldn't have happened. There was a young woman, I gave a talk to some college students and this young woman came up after college students. said, Joey, she's like,

To this day, my dad still blames me for the divorce that happened 10 years prior, saying things like, you kids never were in my life, if it was just me and your mom, then this never would have happened. And then there's other degrees of it where you maybe just feel like, you know, some level of responsibility or like, man, I maybe could have done something differently, like behaved more or said something or maybe stepped in and helped in some way.

And so it kind of runs the spectrum, but I think to some degree we all feel it at some level, even if it was just like, yeah, I just wish I could have done more to help. But one of the analogies has been helpful for me. You live in Florida, so this is kind of appropriate. If you imagine, you you can build a home or a building that's hurricane proof and not everyone does. You can though, it's more expensive. It takes more work, more resources, but you can. But you know, when a hurricane comes and destroys a home or building that's not hurricane proof,

We, know, in some sense we could say it's the hurricane's fault. But in other sense we could say, well, the people who built the home could have made it hurricane proof, but they chose not to because of whatever reason. And the analogy is that the marriage is the building or the home and the hurricane is the children. Because the truth is that children do add stress to family life and marriage. You know, is it worth fighting through that? Of course. Is it, you know, is there so much joy to be found there? I found it there. I love being a dad. It's amazing.

So I think ⁓ that's been helpful for me to realize like, okay, there were things that your parents could have done to make them more resilient to any sort of behavior that you would have brought about and to the point where we can never say, the kid made it happen. Because that just kind of, like you came to realize that takes all sort of responsibility maybe off of them and puts it on the child, which no one would think that's like an appropriate thing to do, even if you had a horribly behaving child. So that's one thought. The other thought I hear, and I love your thoughts on this, another...

Analogy is that a lot of people say that my parents did the best they could and I think that's true in a lot of senses like they did the best they could with maybe what they were given or what their capacity was but the analogy I've been playing with I haven't really flushed this all out is like imagine that someone who maybe isn't the most physically strong was asked to pick up a weight maybe it's like a hundred pounds of weight not a light weight and they weren't able to do it or maybe they could do it for like a second and then dropped it down in that instance they did the best that they could they lifted the weight

to the capacity that they could. However, if they were to train and become stronger, they would be able to do more, their capacity would increase. And so in some cases, I think parents are saying, well, I did the best I could. And on a scale of one to 10, maybe it's true, they did the best they could, they got to the three or the five or the six. But if they had better formation and more maybe grace in their life and mentorship and whatever else we'd say, more growth, healing, then ideally they'd be at a nine or a 10 in terms of capacity and then the best that they could would have been so much better than what they offered.

Does that make any sense?

Jim (31:30)

Yeah, does. Yeah, I mean the way I look at it too is just thinking about it in terms of we all need to face reality and understand reality, be honest about reality and take responsibility for what's in our control. And ⁓ I just think that that's a struggle for all of us to some degree to say to be conscious of what's really going on, to really want to see.

the truth of what's really going on and deal with it versus wanting to not see certain things or hide certain things or do whatever we can to avoid the reality of certain things because it's uncomfortable to us because it's too painful for us to deal with. And then we make up like kind of like these false stories to make ourselves feel better. I think that's what my mom's family was doing. I don't think they had any bad intent.

I think what they thought they were doing was, yeah, let's just try to make the best of this, you know? So, okay, everybody's going to move on and yeah, it's going to be all right and now she's going to be happy and you know, and then they're trying to get me to go along with this narrative, but it doesn't fit to the experience of reality that I'm having. So, yeah, I just think that it's a lot about getting honest about what's really going on. And so I think

That's the other thing about, you know, growing up after divorce, if everybody doesn't face the reality and deal with it as it really is and try to deal with that in a good and healthy way, then it's sort of just, it's sort of an ongoing thing where bad choices continue to get made going forward, you know, in little ways to whatever degree, but certain ways where it's never a full acceptance of what has really happened and

what the state of things really are now and how to really move forward. So then I think what happens and what I saw a lot in my life was a lot of, you know, receiving a lot of gaslighting, right? Like, okay, that version of reality that you're seeing, that's not real, right? It's what we're seeing. It's what we're telling you and ⁓ just sort of being dismissed. And that's very difficult when...

You naturally want to love your parents even after divorce and build relationships with them and you want to make things better. But if there's never any agreement around the reality of the thing, even if it's a, I'm sorry about that. And, but now let's move on and now let's pretend it never happened basically, or what I mean, it's just, ⁓ there's an ongoing aspect to it.

that if it doesn't get settled in a good and healthy way, it's almost very difficult to try to move on and to really grow in relationship with one another. And so that's a struggle I continue to have. I wanna always improve my relationships with my parents. And I think I have a decent relationships, but I hope for more. I do pray for more and I try to do more, but at the same time, it's like trying to see what is actually possible with respect to how far

You know, they're willing to go, I guess in the relationship, which I don't know if I fully understand it off myself, but trying to make sense of it and figure it out. just know it is difficult.

Joey (34:54)

It's like a never ending chapter in a lot of ways. And what I hear you saying is that if you have those honest conversations and kind of are fully aligned with immersed in facing reality, then you could actually close that chapter and move on. And it's interesting, we see this with other traumas in life, whether it was like abuse or assault or even sexual assault, things that are horrific. There can be, that can haunt you for years and it's very traumatic, but there can be a closure because that thing happened in the past.

It didn't continue. It was ended. It's over. You know, maybe our brains don't fully understand that until we go through something like trauma therapy. But once we do, we can close that chapter, set it aside. When it comes to like broken families and divorce in particular, like you said, it's, can be this never ending thing. So I'm curious kind of what variables, what factors do you kind of weigh when it comes to how to approach your parents, what to say to them? Cause I'll be honest with you too. This is an area where I can grow as well. My parents,

My relationship with my parents is better than it has been in the past, but there's certainly room for growth as well. And I think one of the things that everyone listening probably struggles with is like, will it do any good if I talk to them about how difficult this was for me, how damaging it was for me? Or maybe I tried talking to them about it and I got shut down because maybe it's too painful for them, whatever. I'm curious if you have any guidance for everyone listening on maybe how to approach those conversations, how to judge if they're worth having and you know what.

Maybe a successful resolution might look like in this case. Chris, any thoughts?

Jim (36:21)

I mean, I think the hope would be that you can share your heart and that it can be heard and received and that they can open their hearts and share their hearts and that you can receive that. And you can try to both honestly try to grapple with reality as it really is and really talk about it and see, try to resolve whatever.

Conflicts are there and really work on that together That is an ideal that I was I guess I was hoping for in talking to my parents about these things growing up Yeah, I mean I think mostly I was being gaslit and again I don't want to say any bad intent on their part I think they believe the false narrative that they believe and they think that they're right and that I'm making too big a deal of it or whatever when I'm just I'm just sharing my experience with you, you know, but

My older sister is one who, you know, she made it seem like to this day, that didn't really affect me. I know you had a lot of difficulty with it, Jim, but not me. So she can't relate to any of that. But again, I think it's mostly she's where I was when I was 24, and it's all stuffed in, buried in, not willing to want to look at it. My younger brother, eight years younger than me,

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. think he's dealt with it to some degree. I've talked to him a little bit about it. But yeah, I don't know. It's a relationship I should maybe reopen that discussion with him a little bit more. I think he is willing to be pretty honest about things. So yeah, it'd be interesting to see where he's at with things these days. But yeah, I think where I've ended up landing with my parents off of various attempts and conversations and different things, I guess where I've landed is I want to have

as much of a relationship as I can possibly have with them. But I also have to notice where that line is to what they're kind of capable of, what kind of relationship they're capable of having, you know? And so there's a lot of factors in that. I believe that everybody loves each other and all of that, but that's not really enough for everyone to just say, I love you and I love you. It's more...

Can you really open your heart and talk to somebody on that level? And I just think it's something that was handed on generationally on both sides in my family that opening the heart and really like, you know, getting to the truth of things and trying to take responsibility and really try to talk at that level and look at the truth together on a deep level, not something that was handed on. And so,

I just think that for me, a lot of things have been coming and this is again, I had big conversion when I'm 24 and so it's been quite a process. Now I'm 47 walking with the Lord in this and without him, I can't even imagine, you know, where I would be. But with him, it's like at this point, you know, it's been a process of realizing, all right, I got to break these cycles, you know, Lord, you've got to redeem this family line and

Can you use me to do that? And then coming together with my wife and having these conversations at this level and seeing what does that look like? A family redeem, you know? If we could start over in the Lord and do it the right way by God's grace. And so that's what we've been striving to do before we even got married. Really looking at it in that way and trying to go about it that way is certainly imperfect, but that's been the vision. And by God's grace, I am very, very happy that

very grateful that one of those, yeah, one of those grave sins, you know, that, that I was carrying was masturbation, you know? And so I say that instead of pornography, just because it was more the sin of masturbation, even than like going to like some, you know, pornographic stuff, really, it's just, you know, using the imagination or whatever, but just, you know, an improper sense of, of what my sexuality is and what it's for. And

turning it in on myself and teaching myself, in my mind, be using women. And that was very harmful. And so that, to be the grace of confession, receiving the Eucharist in a state of grace, again, that was an area that I'm like, I was always brought up with my friends like, this is normal. Like if you're not doing this, there's something wrong with you. Even my dad, who pulled me over one day, ⁓ probably when I was around,

maybe 14, 15 years old on the way to a hockey game, and it was like, he's gonna give me the sex talk now. He pulls me over and he says, make sure you wear a condom if you're gonna have sex. And that was pretty much the extent of it. And again, he probably got nothing as a kid. So he thought he was probably giving me something there. But again, nobody's stepping in and telling me anything about the way this works and what's right and what's wrong. And so I was just kinda thrown into the world, like this is how it works.

And it's terrible, it's very harmful. And so by God's grace, I never thought, it seemed like this is an area that I would never be free from because it just seemed like this is such a part of life. And that's the way it's kind of sold by the world. This is healthy. And to not do this is unhealthy. And so to think...

Once I learned what the church's teachings were, and when I opened up the catechism on sexuality, that's the first place I went once I got a catechism in my hands. In my early 20s, I went right to the section on human sexuality. And when I read that section, it leapt off the page into my heart, like I've always known this is true. I just never had the words to say it. And I knew it was true. And I had gone down the wrong road. And it's like, this is what's true. Why? Here it is. You know? Yes, I want to live this. So confession.

the Eucharist and state of grace just relying on that, what I thought I could never be free of within, you know, it was a battle. remember tears in the confessional with the priest saying, look, I don't want to do this anymore. And when I leave here, I know that I'm going to, and I don't want to. And he would tell me, just, just come on back, come on back. And that's what I did. And I relied upon God's grace as I knew that this was real and over time, greater and greater strengthening, greater and greater freedom to the degree that about a year later,

I'm going to Franciscan University then to study theology and I'm like, I'm not bringing this with me. I'm not bringing this with me. And the freedom that God gave, it was almost like he needed that extra conviction to participate with his grace. And then it's been freedom and it's been freedom to a degree that has grown from then and to a point where it is such an area of strength. I would not even consider committing that sin ever. if ever a temptation were to come,

It is, it would be so, it's so easy, like a, like the temptation as a snowball on the top of the hill to see it right away, stick your finger on that little ball and just squash it, not letting that thing roll down the hill and get bigger and bigger until it's an unstoppable thing that is going to roll over you. Right? It's so easy to see and defeat. And that's by God's grace. And so that's why I know it's all real.

for sure, but also, yeah, to know that I didn't bring that sin then, I had, you know, six, seven years before I met my wife where I was able to be formed in so many ways by God ⁓ and strengthened to really be prepared to enter into marriage. So that when I was entering into marriage, again, with all the imperfections still though, in a place of strength and in a place of knowing the purpose and knowing the vision. And thanks be to God for saying,

John Paul II, thanks be to God for Jason Everett and Christopher West and these people that I found early on as I was figuring this out that were able to help me understand even more and bring me along even more in these ways. And man, the world is so upside down on it. And if we...

If we can get this right and if we can get the vision of family life right, the vision of marriage right, the fruits, I just think like it's a renewal of the face of the earth that we pray for when we ask the Holy Spirit to come and renew the face of the earth. Like this is it. But we've got to break those cycles. We've got to allow the Lord to come in and renew these things and really give our effort to participate with that grace, to do it His way. And just one last thing to say on that is

It was actually helpful, I think, in some ways for me to see the example of what not to do. I didn't have, I think maybe I had some degree of trepidation or whatever in the early years after the divorce and relationships and things, wondering what I think is common. I know it's part of your story as well of, am I gonna be able to do this? Am I gonna be able to have healthy relationships and have a successful marriage and all of that?

But I think after the conversion and then moving forward with the Lord, it became for me like a conviction like there's no way I'm doing that, right? I've seen the wrong way. I know the wrong way and there's no way I'm doing that. mean, when I entered into marriage, I entered with the conviction that no matter what happens, I'm not going anywhere. I'm in. So I think in some ways, the Lord always wants to pour some

pull some good out of the bad, right? And so even those of us that come from ⁓ difficult backgrounds, broken backgrounds like this, I think some of the good we can pull out is seeing and knowing the example of what not to do and then going the other way.

Joey (46:10)

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I, you know, as we've talked, I definitely struggled out with a bunch of unwanted sexual behavior, sexual sin, and masturbation was one of them porn, you know, other acting out. And it didn't make me happy. And, you know, I heard Jason Everett speak as we've discussed separately. so we'll link to an article to anyone who's kind of scratching their head thinking like, wait a minute, everyone always told me that masturbation was good and fine and healthy. We'll link to an article that maybe we'll offer another perspective.

if this is something you're hearing for the first time. yeah, if you're open-minded, definitely check that out. And what you were saying though about like your parents, I think I see it the same as you that the ultimate resolution to our broken families is not to fix our parents or to fix our family of origin. We don't have that power. We can't do that. Yes, we want to have as much resolution with our parents. We want to heal that relationship, make it even stronger if we can. But sometimes maybe through no fault of our own, there can't be a perfect resolution with our parents.

because they're just not open to it or there's brokenness or maybe they died like things like that. We hear from young people like that all the time. So like you said so well, I think the resolution is that we go on and we break the cycle. We build the beautiful marriages and families that we didn't get to see growing up that we really longed for that would have really benefited us that the lack of really was detrimental and wounded us. I think that's the direct resolution. And for anyone thinking, what about people who maybe aren't called to get married? I think then you can indirectly

help by building up the marriages and the families around you. Like if you're a priest, know, building up the marriages and the families within your community or parish. If you're someone who doesn't end up getting married for one reason or another, you know, being that support to struggling couples or to, you know, just your friends, like building them up, helping them build this culture of just strong marriages, especially when they struggle. And, you know, like you said, there's definitely been times in my marriage, even where there's been difficult seasons, there's been struggles, but just like you, never once has the thought come into my mind like, time to get divorced.

And for some young people or for some children of divorce it does and that's okay if that comes to mind. But you we have to fight through that and we have to, you like you said, just have the conviction to just make this work and you know, assuming there's nothing violent or dangerous to hurt you or your kids. But yeah, I couldn't agree more with everything you said. So that seems to be to me the resolution that you spoke on so well.

Jim (49:09)

Yeah, it is ⁓ a wound still though, in a way that I'm aware of that is a tough one, right? I mean, I, I just long for more, more resolution, not even about the divorce or anything, just a union of hearts, you know? It just seems like still there's something fundamental that we're not quite on the same page on that is affecting a lot.

You know, and again, I've tried to dig in there some, but yeah, I think certainly we love one another by praying for each other. I think being open, think it's, you know, one thing that was really helpful in my healing process was coming across pretty early on after conversion was Dr. Conrad Bars and a book that he had written called Born Only Once.

I believe it's called and it's all about how you can't make it happen, but we all need this sort of human affirmation where somebody in real life, a person that you can grab ahold of is affirming the goodness of your being, right? And this, so, just, you know that they are affirming you because you are good and it might just be exuded in their presence, but you get this sense of it.

And you can't make that happen. You can't make another person come into your life and have that happen. But we can pray, we can be open, we can put ourselves in situations where we're gonna be around good people. But yeah, I mean, this life is, it's something. We are in a broken world. it's fallen yet redeemed by our Lord, but there's still that fallen aspect. so, yeah, with all these relationships, I think, to be aware of ⁓

the limitations and the hope for as much as is possible, but at the same time, yeah, just being open, I guess that, and I do still struggle quite a bit. I think one area that I'm reflecting on that, yeah, what's still maybe in there that I need to take another look at, and that is, you know, I have trouble trusting people. I just do. And there's a lot of reasons why I think a lot of it though is from being gaslit a lot. And then you see that in the culture.

I do a lot of pro-life work and you just look around and like the world's so upside down. It's good to murder a baby, to kill a baby, an innocent child. This is good. And if you don't think this, then you're the extremist, know, that type of stuff. And so I just think we're being gaslit a lot all the time. And to be able to see that and to realize that and then, how do you have relationships with people when they're believing that narrative? you know, so there's a lot of challenges.

I think in it all, yeah, all by God's grace for sure, but I do hope that I can figure out how to be better myself in terms of loving others in a disinterested way, in a way that just affirms the goodness of the other's being and to be, yeah, be authentically who I am in the face of it, not trying to change myself or say things just to please somebody, but to really bring the weight of who I am

but in a genuinely good way for the people I'm coming into contact with. Yeah, I need a lot of help in that area, but yeah, it's a continual process for all of us.

Joey (52:35)

No, I'm right there with you and touching on kind of what you had mentioned, we're talking about struggles in our relationship with our parents. I think a lot of people can relate. I know I can where the relationship isn't quite where you want it to be or there hasn't quite been, maybe there's been some discussions, but not like full discussions and are not vulnerability. Like you said, like a tendency to maybe stay on the surface. I noticed that in my family at times and not really get to the heart of things, not go to the root. And that needs to happen in order for there to be, you know, genuine peace and deep relationships that are life-giving and

you enjoy being around them, it's tricky. That is a big problem in our culture. And the way I think about it too, this is just what's been helpful for me with my parents is you said it before super well, we need to really dive into their story and have compassion for them. That's the thing that will lead to forgiveness. If we just look at them as an adversary, as an enemy.

we're never going to want to forgive them and it's going to be really difficult to forgive them. And so I love what you said that earlier in the interview that, you know, the compassion for your parents is so huge and that's been certainly the case for me. The one thing I've learned from different psychologists is that, you know, we go through all these experiences in life, we are wounded in different ways and those things get lodged into our subconscious. And so often we never really pay attention to that. We never kind of examine what's in there. And when it comes to our relationship with our parents, there might be like wounds that we sustain from them as we've been discussing.

that impact the way that we think, act toward them. And if we never really like uncover that, we might just think, feel, and act toward them in like really bizarre ways. And so I think that one of the first steps is obviously just naming like, hey, things are not really where they need to be, where I want them to be. Even if it's common or it's been that way for a long time, it doesn't mean it's healthy and like quote unquote normal. And so I think like naming that is really good and then trying to dig down, whether it's with the help of a mentor or a therapist or perhaps even on your own through writing if you're, you know.

capable of that to figure out like, what's at the root of all this? Like, why am I so angry at dad or why do I struggle to trust mom or whatever, the particulars might be in your case and then figure out maybe what the next step might be. Does it involve having a conversation with mom or dad? One of the recent guests we had on had a great idea when it came to like kind of overcoming those like estranged relationships, she said that you can kind of send out like little beacons or signals to kind of test the waters to see, whether it's an email or

you know, a kind of a lighter conversation that's a little bit more on the surface, but slightly underneath to see how they might respond. And if you get good signals back, like, okay, I think they're actually open to this. go a little bit deeper and then maybe you can get to the root of it. Maybe not all in one conversation, maybe not right away. Maybe it's going to take months or even years, but ideally you can get to that point. And that's been something I've been thinking a lot about lately, even for myself. It's like, okay, I need to do this, this and this. Like here's kind of some of the struggles I'm having with this parent or that parent. And I really want to work through this. I don't want this to be a thing that

persist for years and years and then they die and I carry it for the rest of my life. And I know it's kind of ⁓ a staunch point to make, but I think it's important because I think so often we can go through life and not even attempt to resolve things. But again, you know, for everyone listening, you might get to a point where they're not open and then it's like on us to kind of find some resolution to maybe kind of just lift it up into God's hands and be like, Hey, I did my part. I've tried. I'll keep trying maybe in different ways, but they've closed the door.

and I can't, there's nothing I can do right now unfortunately with this. So maybe another door will open in the future, but for now, this is, I have to make peace with it. have to just put it down. And so those are a few things that have been helpful for me and stuff that's been top of mind. Before we kind of get to the end of our show, anything you'd add to that, and then I am curious if you can briefly talk about what is that vision for marriage and family that so many of us never even get a glimpse of growing up?

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Jim (57:15)

Yeah, the only thing I guess I would add to what you're saying and yeah, it's an area that I need. I'd love to learn a lot more about, but for me, where I am today on it is with my parents, I consider it a victory of sorts just to maintain the relationships and largely, yeah, their surface relationships. And I know kind of the topics we can talk about when I talk to them. And so that's kind of where we go and we've got a certain way of doing that. But

But yeah, I like the idea of trying to ⁓ overcome the fear of maybe not giving up, of continuing to try to press in, see where there's an opening and try to press in some. And I like that idea of not just saying, well, I guess this is just how it's gonna be, surface relationship for the rest of our lives. So yeah, that's good. then yeah, the vision, I guess, I don't know, one thing I would say is that it just makes sense that

we're meant to, it's meant to be a vision. The family is meant to build up children that are, and again, I know that there are some people listening that might not even be Christian, but for me, that's central because I know it's real. Jesus and his Catholic Church, I've come to know it through my experience and it all checks out in the past.

you know, 23 years or so of striving to live it faithfully. So the sense of, you know, building up the children, I guess, even if we, if we don't talk about putting Christ at the center, it's, it's going upward, right? So we want to have it as such so that we raise children that are, they're going to be better than us, right? They're going to, they're going to grow stronger than us. We're going to give them the best we've got. Hopefully they can take from the best and leave the bad and they'll

They'll be a notch up and then as a parent, I don't feel bad about that. I don't think, ⁓ my son or my daughter is trying to outdo me or something. I better pull them back down. No, it's like, this is great. This is how it's supposed to be. Then if they're called a marriage, then they build up children that are gonna be even holier, more virtuous than they are, so on and so forth. It makes sense that the trajectory would be upward versus when you look back on your...

family line, oftentimes you look back and you can see, I'm not sure this trajectory is not looking like it's going in the upward fashion, you know, like you can kind of trace it and it seems like, you know, it's a lot of floundering maybe or whatever it is, but it doesn't seem to be what it's meant to be. Even if you just look at it from a natural virtue standpoint. But to me, what Jesus has revealed to us is very, very helpful in understanding who we're called to be and what the family's called to be.

in the sense of Him revealing the Father to us and revealing the Holy Spirit, pouring out the Holy Spirit on us, on Pentecost. so understanding the Holy Trinity and how it's this eternal exchange of persons in this one God that each is fully open to give and to receive and that it's fruitful, right? And all creation overflows from this. We are created out of God's love for us. Creation is good.

and created out of love. We are good and created out of love. And that that's, we're all meant to be created out of the love of a man and a woman who are fruitful and multiply naturally as it works, right? And so you can see where all of the world gets these things wrong and perverts it all. But it's like, if we just stuck to the vision and if it was the marital act, was the marital act, right? Only within marriage and.

in a loving embrace, the man and the woman, the husband and wife, their love overflows and a third person is created and then this child comes and then the vision is the love of the husband and wife overflows then to the love of the child and the child is open to receive the love as a child naturally is and the child gives themselves back in love. The problem early on is never the child. It's always the parents who obstruct that in some way, but we don't need to.

by God's grace, right? To be free to love one another, to love the child, to invite the child into this relationship of love. And then from there, being fruitful as a family and being able to, you know, be virtuous in society and do good for others and all of that. And then again, that child goes on perhaps to marriage or, you know, another vocation. And that's again, living.

this idea of loving, of giving oneself and receiving and being fruitful. It makes a whole lot of sense. It's very simple, but it's very deep and profound at the same time. And it really explains so much about who we are and how we're called to live. So to me, again, it all, it all checks out. makes a lot of sense. And then, diving into the life.

of the ⁓ striving to live the teachings, the authoritative teachings of the Catholic Church, which are a gift. The moral teachings are such a gift to protect us from the confusion of the world if we really understand them for what they are. It's part of that aspect of God pouring out His love for us to teach us, like, go this way, don't go this way. Like, it's not about, hey, here are some rules to ruin your time out there so you're not happy. No, it's actually the opposite. It's to free you from all this nonsense.

So you can be free to actually have a wonderful life as you're called to. And then, yeah, we need help doing that. So it's diving into the sacramental life where we can actually share the very life of God. So it's not just me trying to do it on my own effort every day. It's being filled with God's life and participating with that in my efforts to try to be the man he's calling me to be. So to me, it's a beautiful vision and it's a vision that comes down to us through the centuries.

And ⁓ again, if you look into it, I just think it all checks out. And then when you step into it and strive to actually live it faithfully on its own terms, it really checks out because all of a sudden, like you start to experience the goodness and the fruitfulness and it's all real. So ⁓ we've got great opportunities before us. We've got everything handed to us, given to us, ⁓ maybe not necessarily handed on by our biological family or the family we grew up with.

to varying degrees, but we do have it handed on ⁓ by God who created us out of His love and His church that He died to give us out of His love. And so even if it doesn't seem like maybe a lot was provided for us in our family, if you look at the bigger family that we're called into, everything has been provided to us.

Joey (1:03:57)

Beautiful. I could talk with you forever, but, but I wanted to give people a little bit of a glimpse of kind of your life now, a little bit of a contrast compared to, you know, all the pain you were going through. And so you, you're married, you have kids, you've, talked a little about that, but yeah, tell me a little bit about your life now, just again, to give people a contrast to where maybe it was, and perhaps even some hope that, Oh, Jim did it. Maybe I can too.

Jim (1:04:20)

Sure, yeah, just I guess, you my life now, I don't know what to share other than I very much love being a husband and a father. And yes, it's very difficult. It's like, there's a lot of adversity and challenge and it's hard and it's wonderful. And it shapes you into who you're made to be more than anything else I could ever imagine. And that's because it's a vocation that I'm called to, which again, I prayerfully

discerned and you know, God has led me into this and he's been there with me in this and you know, it's more beautiful than I could ever imagine. And in many ways, yes, more difficult than I could ever imagine. But I remember a time when I was a young person after, you know, my parents divorced when I was quite lost, looking in the mirror and just having a hard time believing not, couldn't see a vision of me being a man. I couldn't see a vision.

of me being a husband and a father with six kids. We've got 15 down to one and a half who were fostering and hoping to adopt soon. yeah, we have lost a few children to miscarriage as well. I would never be able to see the vision of who I am today. And it bothered me. I had no sense of it. And I had hoped that God would show me. And those were tough years without having that sense, but just not giving up.

Keep going, keep going, keep doing that, ⁓ keep doing the best you can with what's right in front of you and never give up. And again, by God's grace to be here and now to see the vision fulfilled that I could never see then, that yeah, I can be a man, yeah, I can be a husband, I can be a father, and here I am in like the full flowering of it. And yeah, I'm in the heat of it right now with the children all still here. I don't know what happens next. Just like.

I don't, you know, I always was excited after my conversion. I would think about it one year in, you know, after coming back to the church and the adventure of the whole thing, it was, you know, very, very difficult, you know, trying to not commit these sins that were so entrenched in my life and all of this. And then, you know, the combat of all of that and thinking, what does this look like in 10 years if you don't give up? What does this look like in 20 years, in 30 years? And I can just say that it is wonderful.

The further you go with our Lord in this, He's got so much for you. And to me, I'm on like the slow track in a certain sense because I feel that, Lord, I think it takes me a long time sometimes to learn what you're trying to show me and to, you know, to step in what you're inviting me into or whatever, at least, you know, that's how I perceive it sometimes. But to think like, I can't wait.

to see by God's grace if he gives me more time in my earthly life, what does it look like when you're 30, 40 years in? I don't know, but I can only imagine it gets richer and more beautiful and more wonderful in the midst of the terrible difficulties that we have to face each and every day. Our Lord tells us for a reason, pick up your cross each day, come follow me, because it is hard. There's a lot of responsibility in being a husband and a father.

A lot of children in the home and all of that a lot of responsibility and we cannot shirk that responsibility We've got to face it. We've got to own it. We've got to say lord I don't know how I'm gonna do this, but you got to help me let's go and and keep keep moving forward in it and it really is difficult but so amazingly beautiful and so I would just ask though that anybody who might find this say a little prayer for me if you wouldn't mind I you know

can use all the help and the body of Christ, ⁓ really appreciate the prayers. And yeah, if you're watching this, I'm going to pray for you when I get off of this, anybody that is watching this. And if I can ever be of any help or service to anybody at any time, just reach out. ⁓ yeah, it's a beautiful life even amidst the many trials, but we've got to help each other in it too. And I think that's kind of a lost art in our world today, people who really seem to care about each other and help each other and all of that.

Joey (1:08:33)

But this podcast is a good start and I definitely appreciate you sharing all that you shared and yeah, ditto. I can definitely relate with it being hard and beautiful. There's something about that. Like, yeah, your life gets harder, but it gets better. So I'm right there with you. Tell us a little bit about how people can find you online and what you offer. know you have your hands in different things. So tell us a little bit about everything you're working on.

Jim (1:08:56)

Sure, yeah, right now I do a radio show on Catholic Radio, the station of the cross. iCatholic Radio is the mobile app. So that's every Monday through Friday, four to five p.m. So I various things. Joey came on, shared his testimony for an hour with us recently, so you can find that. ⁓ Also, he's coming back tomorrow. Actually, he's gonna be live at four p.m. Eastern, and we're gonna talk, and he's gonna answer some questions, so that's gonna be great.

⁓ But yeah, you can also find me on YouTube Jim Havens various videos again the the show that I do but also videos related to the men's march Which is something that I co-founded the national men's march to abolish abortion rally for personhood So you can check that out also at the men's march calm and then Catholic family men calm something I did some years ago now Probably at least ten years ago I would say but that was really helpful formative for me to do a study of the Saints who are the Saints that our husbands and fathers

Can I identify them? Can I learn about their lives? Can I find a little example from their lives that maybe I can apply to mine? And if I'm doing this for me, can I put it out there as a resource for others? So that's out there if you might find benefit from that, catholicfamilymen.com. And then jimhavens.com is just ⁓ a place where you can find me and my emails there or a way to reach out to me ⁓ if I can ever be of service.

Joey (1:10:17)

But also mulling to that, all that in the show notes and Jim, thank you for being here. Thank you for, yeah, sharing so openly, so vulnerably. I know I found it helpful and I'm sure our audience says too. I just want to give you the last word. What final advice or encouragement would you offer to everyone listening? Maybe especially to the younger you who's listening right now, maybe the young man who, yeah, it hasn't quite developed into like that full version of like the masculine man that they're meant to be. What final advice or encouragement would you give them?

Jim (1:10:44)

Yeah, I think it's almost the same thing that I would give to myself now in a certain way and to everybody and that is, yeah, to face things, try to really see things as they really are and be honest about that and to see it head on and then to not stuff it down or turn away from it or anything like that, but to really invite Jesus into it and ask the help of the best intercessor that we have, Our Lady, who is so

so powerful and so helpful in loving us and helping us to draw closer to Jesus and helping our hearts to open to Him. So I would just say to ⁓ open up the heart and to allow Him in, to open up the mess and allow Him in and to not be turning away in the pain and going further from Him or turning away from Him, but just turn to Him, keep turning to Him. Never give up on that process of continuing to turn to Him.

in the difficulty, the pain, whatever it is, in the joy, share life with them. Open the heart and let them in. And that vision of the Holy Trinity with God, right? He's pouring out His heart to you and He's asking you to open up and receive and to give yourself back. And so to persevere in that and just keep going.

Joey (1:12:04)

That wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Restored 8/21/25 Restored 8/21/25

Teaching “Divorce is About Your Happiness” Needs to Stop

7-minute read.

This story was written by Celeste T. at 25 years old. Her parents divorced when she was 18. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

We were missionaries on full-time support in a very conservative evangelical culture. Between homeschooling and missions, we were very isolated spiritually and relationally from other Christians. I am the oldest daughter with one older brother and six younger siblings. My dad had a sudden spiritual awakening when I was about 14 and became a Christian, despite having claimed to be a believer for his whole life. This change prompted him to confess to my mom that he'd been addicted to pornography for their whole marriage. My mom felt that he'd already been doing such a poor job as a loving husband that his renewed efforts at romance could never be enough to make up for the emotional deficit in their marriage.

At various times, one or the other wanted to try therapy; unfortunately, this was not helpful to them as the therapist tended to side with one or the other. And most of the time, one of them didn't really want to be there. It felt like they tried every Christian marriage book, blog, and "love dare" challenge. My mom revealed to my dad at some point during this time that she'd had an affair within the first two years of their marriage. My dad was taken over by depression and was unable to get out of bed for a period of time.

At this time, the Christian evangelical homeschooling community was being rocked by various leaders and families’ sexual sin. Then, my mom had another affair with our propane salesman. My mom continued to manipulate and verbally/physically abuse me and my siblings and my dad; a pattern that only worsened throughout my teen years. My dad, although physically larger and stronger than my mom, was very passive in the situation. My role in the situation was to be cheerful to balance out the widespread depression in our household, to keep the inner collapse a secret from everyone who knew us, to keep various siblings from abusing each other, to keep my siblings safe from mom, and to somehow help mom and dad come to a middle ground. When I was 18, my mom moved out of the house a few weeks before I left the state to go to college. My siblings were in a 50/50 custody situation while I watched the collapse from afar. They divorced about a year later; our supporting churches dropped financial support and my parents re-entered the secular workforce.

At this time, my dad has remarried and my mom is considering marriage to the second man she had an affair with.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

Initially, when my parents overshared the affair and porn addiction details with me, I agreed with them, "Yeah, it sounds like it's best if you just divorce," feeling relief. I had panic attacks most nights throughout those high school years and struggled with continual anxiety (although I didn't have a name for it and believed it to be completely separate from the marriage struggles). My siblings have always been the sore spot for me; my parents could hurt ME as much as they wanted with their choices, but I watched each sibling struggle with depression, suicidal ideation, and even just the back and forth of custody and beginning public school. This was when I would be outraged and angry at my parents. I felt helpless to actually make a difference because my own heart and mind were so unhealthy that I couldn't move back home.

I felt tremendous guilt for leaving them behind, always worrying that someone would kill themselves. At the end of the day, there's just a place of pity for my parents; I truly believe if they ever knew how negatively they've destroyed the lives of their children, they wouldn't be able to live with the knowledge. I pity them for the level of self-deception and victimhood that blinds them; I pity them for their broken relationships with their children; I pity my mom for the insecurity that keeps her from healthy relationships with men.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED HER

The biggest impact is in my relationship with God. If marriage is supposed to represent Christ's love for the church, what does divorce teach a young believer? I still struggle to accept that God is not passive (like my dad), and that His love is purely unconditional. It resulted in long years of personal isolation before I actually made friends that I could talk to about it all.

I was very avoidant of close relationships. Dating feels like hell, and although I long for a healthy marriage, I feel like I've been stunted in my growth towards that goal. My trust and respect for my parents is completely destroyed as I've had to be the third parent, because our actual parents won't step up in a meaningful way in my siblings' lives. It has made me a thousand times more loyal to my siblings than I ever would've expected, especially since I remember most of those years and they remember very little. I feel like I'm holding the family memory, since their trauma keeps them from remembering much. I think most of my siblings would feel the same way: "You can trash-talk or hurt or manipulate me all you want, but as soon as you bring my sibling into it, this conversation is OVER and I'll stand up to you on their behalf."

Lastly, it's harmed my relationships with my extended family because I've never been sure if their care is just a ploy to gather insider information on the situation. This is very isolating.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

Lament to God about this terrible situation; use the sad psalms or write your own grief prayers. Write down how it's affected you. Find friends who are removed from the situation to talk to. Seek growth and change and healing, be SO intentional about it. Don't freak out when you think you're becoming your parents; focus instead on what you DO want to become. And if you're leaving little siblings behind... know that we don't get to choose when our chance for escape comes. We have to take it when it comes, because you don't know if you'll get the chance to get out and heal again. Unfortunately, it rarely happens at the same time as your siblings' chance. This is awful. You can't change that. You CAN work hard to heal and establish yourself and thrive so that when your siblings' chance comes, you'll be waiting to help them; whether that's saving a room for them in your apartment or having a car to drive them away, or learning how adult life works so you can teach them how to function.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS FROM DIVORCED AND SEPARATED FAMILIES?

The teachings that "children are resilient" and "divorce is about your happiness" that we give to adults who are considering divorce needs to stop. The relationship decision may not be "about the kids" but they are collateral damage of the lose-lose choices these parents are making. Children survive because of the providence of God, and any healing they find afterwards is in spite of their parents' decisions. Healthy families within the church need to practice hospitality and welcome in those isolated children of divorce... this has been so refreshing and healing in my own life to have the body of Christ become my family.

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Restored 7/18/25 Restored 7/18/25

Is It My Fault My Parents Have an Unhappy Marriage?

10-minute read.

A few years ago, singer RaeLynn released a song called ‘Love Triangle.’ It wasn’t what you expected from a song with that title written by a twenty-something country star. It wasn’t a ballad about unrequited love or some other dysfunctional romantic relationship. It was about her relationship with her parents and her experience growing up in a broken home.

At the crux of the song, RaeLynn makes the point that some parents “Let their heart strings tear and tangle / And some of us get stuck / Some of us grow up / In a love triangle.”

This is a perfect depiction of what children from broken families experience, especially if their parents were always fighting and had an unhappy marriage.

What It Feels Like to Grow Up Around Parents with an Unhappy Marriage

Imagine one of the Tom Cruise-esque movies where there’s a bomb about to go off and the hero has 10 seconds to save the day before everything (including his stunning romantic interest) gets blown up. You feel mounting tension bordering panic as you watch him overcome obstacle after obstacle to achieve this seemingly impossible feat.

Now imagine this is the whole movie. No happy ending, no comedic relief, no riding off into the sunset in an expensive convertible; just mounting tension, stress, and fear. This is what it’s like to grow up with parents in an unhappy marriage.

Children with parents who are always fighting live in a state of high alert. It is almost impossible for them to feel at ease, safe, and relaxed at home because they are hypervigilant for the next moment of strife between their parents. If you live or lived in a household with parents that were always fighting, you may have experienced (or still experience):

Feeling caught in the middle and pressured to take sides
Fear that anything you might say or do could stir up another argument
High levels of stress when you hear your parents fighting
Feeling like it is your responsibility to keep your parents happy and at peace
Loneliness in your stress and sadness because you can’t confide in your parents
A lack of stability and safety
Fear of conflict in general
A tendency to people-please at whatever cost
Feeling helpless about a problem you can’t fix

All of these effects that stem from an unhappy marriage can result in serious childhood trauma as well as broken relationships between parents and their children. If this is you, I hope you will consider taking time to reflect on how your parents’ unhappy marriage has affected you. Whether it’s by yourself with a journal or with a trusted therapist. The act of simply facing the trauma you have experienced and how it affects you can be hugely beneficial.

When Your Parents Are Always Fighting and You Can't Fix It

Witnessing problems we can’t solve can be incredibly painful, especially when they involve people we love. When parents are unhappy, children often feel a responsibility to fix the problem and possibly even at fault for the unhappiness itself.

Carrying around this guilt and helplessness is a heavy burden. It is also very stressful. It can be tempting for children who witness their parents fighting to desperately search for ways to resolve the tension. When they are unable to do so, they become consumed by feelings of helplessness and guilt, sometimes leading to despondency.

A key principle that we try to instill in our audience here at Restored is this: it’s not your fault.

Your parents’ unhappy marriage, marital strife and whatever may come as a result of that is quite simply out of your control. Furthermore, you cannot fix the problems your parents face as a result of their unhappy marriage. As unpleasant and difficult and painful as it is to have parents that are always fighting, it is not something you can resolve.

This reality can instill feelings of helplessness and hopelessness in children from broken families, but there are coping mechanisms you can use to help stay in a more positive state of mind and to prevent your parents’ unhappy marriage from consuming you. For example:

If your parents are in a heated argument, consider going for a walk or run to remove yourself from the environment.
Take up an activity that brings you joy and fulfillment such as a sport, dance, painting, or cooking.
Surround yourself with a good group of friends who can support you. If you’re not sure where to start, check out your parish youth group.
Try to find a positive role model of marriage in your life, whether that be a friend’s parents or another couple in your community. Spending time with people in healthy relationships will instill hope about marriage and family life.

Overcoming Childhood Trauma Begins With Letting Go of Blame

Growing up in a broken home with parents that were always fighting can affect children for the rest of their lives. The constant state of tension and witnessing their parents hurt each other verbally and sometimes even physically is understandably traumatic.

Children who grew up in this type of environment may experience intense fear of conflict, anxiety about relationships, feelings of helplessness, guilt about matters beyond their control, and a desire to always keep everyone else happy at any cost.

These types of symptoms that can result from growing up in a broken family need to be addressed. But how does one overcome this type of childhood trauma? The first, most essential step is to let go of blame.

It is challenging for children from broken families to let go of responsibility for their parents’ conflicts and unhappy marriage. For one thing, you may not even realize that you have internalized guilt about your parents’ relationship. You may intellectually understand that it wasn’t your fault, but still carry around guilt that surfaces when triggered. Secondly, these feelings of responsibility may be so deeply ingrained that letting go of them almost feels like you’re doing something wrong.

Accepting that you cannot control your parents and that you are not to blame for their unhappy marriage is an essential first step to finding healing and overcoming childhood trauma. This guilt will continue to weigh you down until you do the work to release it. If you’re not sure how to do this, you can simply start by journaling about it. It also might be worth seeking professional help. Additionally, you can get a copy of our book, It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parent’s Divorce.

Healing a Broken Relationship With Parents Takes Time and Grace

Growing up with parents who are always fighting often leads to a broken relationship between the parents and their children. Children may want to distance themselves from their parents and all the unpleasant, difficult, tense moments. They may try to avoid closeness with either parent to avoid getting stuck in the ‘love triangle’ that is their parents’ unhappy marriage.

This type of estrangement often happens in broken families but does not have to be permanent. With appropriate boundaries, a healthy, loving relationship can almost always be restored between the children and their parents. However, healing can only happen when you as the child have worked to understand the ways in which your parents’ unhappy marriage has affected and let go of any responsibility you may feel for their problems. It also requires you to begin the hard work of forgiveness of your parents for the hurt they have caused.

This takes time and grace. You can’t expect to restore a broken relationship with your parents in a week. It may take years. It also takes the grace of God, especially to forgive your parents. With continual reflection, prayer, and the establishment of healthy boundaries, healing is absolutely possible.

If you take away anything from this article we hope it’s this: it is not your fault your parents had or have an unhappy marriage. Nobody is perfect, but even the ‘perfect’ child could not fix their parents’ relationship, because the problem is simply not about them. You have no responsibility or even the capacity to fix your parents’ marital problems.

If you feel stuck in a ‘love triangle’, caught between two opposing sides, or a simply not sure where to start with your healing journey, we’re here to help. Check out the Restored podcast, blog, or purchase a copy of our book, It’s Not Your Fault.

You’re not doomed to repeat your parents' mistakes and you don’t have to suffer the consequences of your parents’ broken marriage on your own, check out our website or follow us on social media to find out more about how we can support you.

Restored 7/15/25 Restored 7/15/25

#153: He Grew Up Without a Dad. Here’s What He Learned | Tommy

In many places, we’re facing an epidemic of fatherlessnes. Fatherlessness not only leaves an invisible mark but it also shapes how you view yourself. So are fatherless children doomed?

In many places, we’re facing an epidemic of fatherlessnes. Fatherlessness not only leaves an invisible mark but it also shapes how you view yourself, how you handle your emotions, and how you love in relationships. So are fatherless children doomed?

Not at all. In fact, Tommy shows how to compensate for what you didn’t receive from dad and how healing is within reach. In this episode, we also discuss:

His dad’s spiral into mental illness, homelessness—and why Tommy hasn’t seen him in over a decade
The hidden ways father hunger shows up in dating relationships, causing us to seek what we never received from the wrong people
The lies he carried for years: “I am alone” and “I have to earn love”—and the truth he found to break that grip

If you experienced any sort of fatherlessness, this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:03)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

My guest today is Tommy. Tommy is an unapologetic New Jersey native who grew up without a father, through the presence of father figures this passion he has for mentoring young people in an increasingly fatherless world.

As you probably know, in so many places in our world, we're facing an epidemic of fatherlessness. And fatherlessness not only leaves a wound like an invisible mark, but it also shapes how you view yourself, how you handle your emotions, and how you love in relationships. And so the question is, are fatherless children doomed? Not at all. In fact, Tommy shows how to compensate for what you didn't receive from dad how healing is within reach.

In this episode, we also discuss things like his dad's spiral into mental illness and even homelessness and why Tommy seen him in over a decade. The difficult balance between helping enabling someone who has a mental illness. We talk about the two extremes that we all fall with emotions how Tommy has found the healthier path.

We discuss all the ways that father hunger shows up in dating relationships, causing us to seek we didn't receive from the wrong people. hit on what it's like to feel too messy for your friends and how Tommy stopped believing that. And the lies that he carried for years, thinking I'm all alone and I have to earn love and the truth he found to break that grip. And so if you've experienced any sort of fatherlessness, this episode is for you.

In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. Wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, I would just challenge you to listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip the God parts, still gonna get a lot from this episode. And with that, here's the conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (01:59)

Tommy, great to have you here, man. Welcome to the show.

Tommy (02:01)

Thank you so much for having me, Joey.

Joey Pontarelli (02:02)

know your story is ⁓ quite intense and I'm excited to dive into that and just learn more about everything But I'm just so honored that you would come on the show. as we usually do, I'm curious what you remember or what you were maybe told if you were super young, what was life like before your parents split?

Tommy (02:20)

I'm going off of entirely what I've been told because they split when I was not even a year yet. ⁓ think I was specifically I think it was about six months.

And so, maybe I can get into this a little bit more later, but there's actually kind of a part of my story of just the implications of like there being problems and difficulties before I was even conceived. And the act of faith my mom went through to even be open to the conception of me. And so, in a beautiful way in my life, know is, I very instinctively know my life's a miracle, every life's a miracle. But I think

that's also come with some baggage though of like the feeling of like you have a debt to pay of like making your life worth something or and so forth, you know? ⁓ But yeah, so I don't really know what life was like before. I've been told on good faith that it was good and it is a very holy and happy marriage. But obviously that only lasted so long.

Joey Pontarelli (02:55)

Hmm

Tommy (03:06)

Yeah, I want to make sure I'm not jumping ahead in the right order of questions, I suppose, but my parents' situation is unique in the sense that it wasn't like they were splitting because of fighting or disagreements. was, it kind of goes up the chandelier tree a little bit because my grandfather, unfortunately, was a alcoholic and very abusive. I know physically, I believe, it often comes to the verbal abuse as well. And I think my aunts, because they're daughters, she was more gentle with them.

⁓

in both respects and so I think they obviously have their own level of baggage and trauma they've dealt with but I think the boys unfortunately, my uncles and my dad, had more of brunt to pay so to speak in terms of like kind of the old fashioned 1950s, know, leather belt discipline and so forth. And so with that I think I unpack this a bit more later but it's not like I have this resentment toward my parents or difficulty with that.

It's very understandable and if I look at what happened to my dad's illness as a result of his trauma, it makes sense that they had to split. so they're civilly divorced but they're not annulled. They never saw an annulment. My mom didn't seek an annulment. But essentially my dad's got crippling OCD. It's actually a pretty common thing of obsessive compulsive disorder. And a lot of people do actually have some form of it. much more than simply like feeling like the need to tidy all the time or something like that.

those who are not familiar, OCD essentially is the irrational obsession, a fear, and in order to kind of ease that fear, you have a compulsion, which is like some kind of weird or again compulsive action in order to kind of ease that anxiety. So for my dad, he had issues for a lot of his life, but I guess was able to...

with it or kind of package it up or to know we're trying to find the right phrasing cope with it and obviously get married and and be okay and functional for several years to have four children ⁓ but I think night school and a lot of stress at work and other things kind of broke him and then I guess a lot of old habits and old trauma kind of came back rearing its ugly head and he just developed a lot of very obvious OCD and but to be honest I feel like there's a lot more because it seems like I've never heard of a

Joey Pontarelli (04:46)

Hmm.

Tommy (05:08)

case

of OCD as bad as his. To this think he's still homeless. he's kind of a paradox and a contradiction because on the one hand, he's constantly showering in the skin of germs like a hypochondriac, but on flip side, he's also hoarding because he's trying to recycle. This is a lot of strange habits he's built. And as a result, though, he's often booted as a rent. And so that's rendered him homeless.

Joey Pontarelli (05:10)

Wow.

Tommy (05:30)

Yeah, it's been hard to kind of from a distance know he's struggling and just trying to figure out that relationship, especially as I've become an adult with my own family and my children's relationship to their grandfather. So that's definitely more than what you asked initially. That's kind of some context.

Joey Pontarelli (05:43)

No, no, I love it. Let's go there. So thank you for sharing.

And that's kind what I was alluding to by the intensity of it. I had known some of these details from afar and, ⁓ and that's so hard. And I think you're right. When people hear OCD, they think like, I'm just kind of a perfectionist or something like that. But it's like, you were talking like clinical OCD here where it's like intense. And I've known a couple of people who've had it pretty bad, maybe not to that level you know, they had maybe a huge, obsession with germs. And so they would constantly like wash their hands to the point where it would like,

Tommy (05:50)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (06:10)

get really bad, like raw skin, things like that. So that's another example that I can think of. But curious, with kind of his current state, how much contact do you have with him if you're open to sharing? And then how do you navigate that whole tension between maybe wanting to help versus knowing that if you become like a crutch, then that will do more harm?

Tommy (06:11)

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're asking a question that unfortunately is still very present and still very much asked. And I think because, you know, the past five gotten married, I have two children now, and so it's transitioning from being a child to being a college student to being a young adult to being now kind of an independent husband and father. So yeah, so I think the...

We unfortunately had a very good system growing up and seeing him. It was on a regular basis. I I was much younger. It was like maybe twice a year, Easter and Christmas. Maybe three times would be more rare. It's typically twice a year. And then it kind of dwindled down to once a year. Easter was kind of the see him. And forgetting the reason. I know it was on his end. He just decided like, you know,

He was like, growing up you always say, his illness. We don't know why. He just said that he can't come. And so that was the last time I saw him was the summer I went to college. So it's been over a I've seen him.

Joey Pontarelli (07:24)

Wow.

Tommy (07:25)

have had very limited contacts. Like I talked to him over the phone at this point, it'd be almost four years ago. On the phone, I received a letter from him and I've sent him a couple of letters. But of his illness is that like he has no phone, he has no car, because he's also kind of, I don't think he's schizophrenic, he might be, but he's definitely paranoid. And so I did think about him a lot during COVID of

the one hand, the fear of germs, but on the flip side, COVID obviously was boxed with lots of conspiracy theories and the government and world takeover and all kinds of crazy stuff. I almost imagine him suffering from both of those, of like the fear of the government and the fear of so I wonder how he dealt with that. But the point being is that it's very difficult to get in touch with him. And so how approach it is

Joey Pontarelli (07:57)

Yeah.

Tommy (08:10)

I would love a relationship with him and for him to know my children, his grandchildren. I know from a distance it gives him lot of pride and joy from what we've done with our lives and now his grandchildren. my two children and actually my brothers, you they're expecting someone more on the way. But I there has to be boundaries and I think the big part of his illness is sort of trying to like violating boundaries. so have to very firm lines in the sand. And insofar as he can't do it or is not willing to

that then unfortunately have to take a step back.

But I think in an ideal world, and hopefully this can be a reality sooner than later, can be sort of negotiations if you will. I hate to use such a business term, but that's kind of how it's been in order to cultivate a relationship that's healthy but non-invasive because he would easily sort of overstep boundaries, unfortunately. And therefore, have my primary duties to my to make sure that, you know, grandpa is not just randomly showing up and expecting to kind of just crash in our house for months or

Joey Pontarelli (08:46)

Yeah.

Tommy (09:04)

who knows? mean there's been incidents of him having kind of a reality check of what's possible and what's not.

Joey Pontarelli (09:06)

Yeah.

No, thanks for going into all that and sharing. I think one of the things I notice in you, just even in the way you talk about your dad is, have a lot of compassion for him, which I know some people aren't there yet. Some people are just like still feeling maybe a lot of anger a parent who neglected them or, you know, walked away whatever the case was. I'm sure there's those emotions there for you too. But that's like, I think a really beautiful lesson for all of us is saying that.

Tommy (09:33)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (09:38)

I think there is a way almost always, if not always, to develop some sort of compassion. Like I heard a quote recently that said, it's like, it's hard hate close up. Like if you really get to know people and like learn their stories and realize like, wow, they had a really difficult life and they had trauma of their own had this mental illness. And like, that was similar with my dad, like a lot of up. He, you know, has bipolar disease

Tommy (09:42)

Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (10:01)

been really hard on and I cannot imagine, like, I don't know what I would do personally if I had that disease. And so I think there's something really, I think, and beautiful about that and obviously that can lead to forgiveness and a lot of things. But at the same time, I hear you saying, you know, that doesn't mean that anything goes. Like you have to have proper boundaries, not just for you and your family, but also for his good, because it wouldn't be good for him to be able to, you know, maybe get away with things or do things that would ultimately, you know, harm him.

Tommy (10:03)

Yeah.

Yeah, was definitely,

I think, again, I can speak more about this later, but my mom handled it by and large incredibly honorably and I admire her so much for her strength and her witness, even just to her faithfulness, fidelity, and having such a hard life herself as a single mother. It's it's unbelievable. there was like, yeah, it's difficult where it felt like opening a dad box was like a huge, you know, Pandora's box of emotions. And so it felt like the routine was sort of like, you know, on the once or twice a year visit where we

Joey Pontarelli (10:51)

Yeah.

Tommy (10:55)

saw dad on the way back home from Pennsylvania, back to New Jersey, we'd have our dad conversation that was like, you know, the box is opened and it was like exhausting, you know, and then close the box. And so there wasn't really open conversation about reality. And I think there's, you know, different personality temperaments in my family, why that would perhaps be the case, or guess preferences of, you know, not needlessly constantly stirring up emotions, which is completely makes sense. but I think I...

Joey Pontarelli (11:04)

Gosh. Hmm.

Tommy (11:20)

I've always been told my dad's a very good man, but he's a sick man. And so that's kind of the narrative I've always recognized and believed in. And I still believe that, and I know that. there's also a healthy balance to not paint him as a, I've also had to kind of almost go backward in my process of.

recognizing what's happened in my own childhood to recognize, know, is there no fault in my dad? Is it all trauma or is there some level of capability? And that's a hard line and I don't even know how to draw that line because I don't know, know, what is his own free will versus his illness? And that's kind of one those situations with my story, but every story is different, so.

Joey Pontarelli (11:43)

Yeah.

Yeah, no, that's a big question. And I think it's harder and harder to like draw that line the more intangible the like disability is. Cause I think like with things, I don't know if someone like lost their legs, it's like, well, obviously they can't walk. And there's some like, like literal physical limitation that you're going to get hit in the face with, or they have cancer so they never have much energy. So they can't really like play with their kids. Like, so it's kind of a tangible, at least visible,

Tommy (12:01)

Yeah.

Yeah. Right.

Joey Pontarelli (12:19)

way of explaining their behavior, but with mental illness

especially, I've seen it's like, my goodness, everything on the outside can appear fine. It can appear like you're like anyone else, but you are just as sick as that person with cancer.

Tommy (12:25)

It's so great. Yeah.

Yeah, no, that's a great way of putting it. It's felt great. I think actually in my process of accepting it in a deeper level, think in a weird way, I grew up a healthy but at times unhealthy level of...

Ownership like yeah, I think sometimes we overstep the line of like we're the family that has a really hard story But we own our cross we embrace our cross and we're mature and we're happy and we're in Sometimes I think I I want to be tread lightly here to not sound like I'm disparaging any of my family, but

But yeah, I think that sometimes I with that ownership, there came like a lack of permission to kind of struggle sometimes or to feel like a little anger or frustration or deal with those messy emotions. And it's like, nope, this is our cross and we accept it and it can sometimes turn into a kind of stoicism. the point I guess I'm trying to make is that with mental illness, it is very gray.

and it's hard to draw lines and I think sometimes the narrative, especially for me because I was the was very black and white. Like he's good, but he's sick. And it's like, okay. And I think that's a great narrative to tell a two-year-old, a four-year-old, even a six, seven, whatever. But I think that narrative kind of stayed. And as I'm in college or then even as a young adult, it's like, well, is that, it's that black and white.

Joey Pontarelli (13:23)

Okay.

Yeah.

Tommy (13:42)

I think there's a beauty of simplicity to that and to have a simple faith of just, you know, believe not to be the case. But then there's also been instances that have occurred where I see some gray area to process that. And think for that has to be a level don't want to say wiggle room, but just an acceptance that.

ultimately is merciful and compassionate but also allows for the messiness of emotions and let that iron itself out as opposed to sort of like well, it's across if that's is and then we start to kind of bury things or the They'll still be there to process maybe the decade later, but there there's unprocessed emotions will still be there

Joey Pontarelli (14:14)

Wow. No, you're bringing up so many great points. I'm taking tons of notes here. So a few things. I want to talk about how your mom handled things in a second to just kind of like finish painting the picture of life was like for you. And then we'll kind of go fast forward in the story. But before getting to that, one point I heard from a psychologist was, just this tendency that we have between maybe brooding over like emotions and difficulties in life much, right? We get caught in them. We are constantly thinking about them, talking about them. That sounds like that was not the problem.

Tommy (14:25)

Mm.

Hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (14:41)

in your family, in your life. On the other hand, we have people who, yeah, yeah, like on the other hand, we have people bottle things up and never talk about things. It's like, yep, that thing happened years ago and we never even mentioned it. So brooding and bottling, neither great and healthy, but yeah, when it comes to stoicism, I wanna touch on that a little bit. in your childhood or even over the years.

Tommy (14:41)

Mm. Mm-mm. Yeah. Talk stoicism.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Joey Pontarelli (15:03)

Yeah, what's been your relationship with, I don't know, difficult emotions and things? You alluded to this already, but I'm curious if stoicism looked at something like good and virtuous, which maybe there is virtue in it, or did you handle all these difficult emotions, especially since maybe you didn't see that modeled super well?

Tommy (15:06)

No, No.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean joke now, know, it's like I grew up in a...

Irish family which is kind of like a perfect mix of bottling things up or you know, like there's actually Laughed but it was like a conversation I have my uncle I was like in high school at this point I maybe eighth grade I think I was in high school and he's like, yeah and your uncle Kevin and he's gay and and I was like really? He's like you didn't know that I was like no not disparaging that but at all certain big family things. I just never was told, you know, just I

Joey Pontarelli (15:25)

Yeah.

you

Yeah.

It's like kind

of huge and you're like, I'm just learning about this right now.

Tommy (15:49)

Yeah, yeah.

I can laugh about it now, of course. actually article about this a magazine one time, and I think that writing that article itself was a bit of a process for me, which was good.

And I think the theme of the article that I actually hit on was this very question of this relationship between sort toxic stoicism that sort of says, well, it is what it is, deal with it, move on. And then the flip side of a brooding and bottling, like that dichotomy. I think I called it a, what did say? We're just the victim of a mentality.

And on the flip side, stoicism that's gone too far. think, I won't say stoicism, but a serenity is good. Obviously, Lord give me the, you know, the serenity prayer, Lord give me the, how's it go? The strength to change the things that I can, patience to accept the things that I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference. You know, I'm paraphrasing more or less what it

there's also a sense of accepting the things that you can't. think with stoicism, of problem is that it's correct.

there are many things in life you can't change. But the problem though is that it then, it doesn't have like a more of an interpersonal recognition of your own emotions and the validity of those. And so just because your emotions and your rationality are distinct not mean emotions rationally is not needed, you know?

Joey Pontarelli (17:01)

Mm-hmm.

Tommy (17:01)

I think just legitimate, but a necessary process in understanding our emotions and their allowing reason to of comb through But then, goal has to be projected towards something, has to have a trajectory a line, which acceptance.

and allowing that wound, that cross heal you, to transform you, to be part of your story. I think for my it's a little too, what's the word? Yeah, think tended toward like, yep, it's part of our story, we're stronger for it, we're better for that's definitely true. And I was thinking from the youngest sibling you was the back end of that, where perhaps I was kind of lumped in with everyone's story

emotions hadn't yet fully processed perhaps. I think that's the one extreme. On the flip side though, of course you have this brooding, this sort victim mentality. And the biggest problem with victimhood is that requires a villain. And you mentioned before, what if you get cancer leg's chopped off or it's amputated or you get into a car accident. a whole number of things that can happen that are tragic, that are not moral evils, but are natural evils. lose sight in whatever, lose sight in one eye.

Joey Pontarelli (17:46)

Yeah

Tommy (18:02)

to blame, really you just either blame nature or you blame God. There's no one really to blame. And so if you don't have a villain, the victim can't really go anywhere. And so ultimately they say in forgiveness and in acceptance, the person who has the most liberation is the victim, forgiver, not the forgiven. And so I think in that sense,

Joey Pontarelli (18:17)

Hmm.

Tommy (18:20)

You have to have that tension proper of recognizing the validity of your emotions, not allowing those emotions to tie you down forever. And the flip side acceptance or stoicism, it's to move on to recognize these are real things and I can't change them, but not to make that marching order to not think about it and to kind of bury them, because burying things doesn't actually do anyone any good.

Joey Pontarelli (18:39)

Mm.

Yeah, no, so good.

made me think of the psychologist I mentioned before who kind mentioned the brooding and the bottling, Dr. Susan David. She's a Harvard psychologist and she wrote a book called Emotional Agility. And she of outlines emotional agility. It's been really helpful for as kind of like the ideal. says it's not, she kind of shies away from the term emotional intelligence because it sounds fixed. Like you how to better master and navigate your emotions.

But she basically says emotional agility is your ability to face and feel your emotions. Like we're not running from them. We're not hiding from them. We're not stuffing them away. but then choosing your response in a way that aligns with your deepest held beliefs, which we'd essentially call virtue. And so like her definition though, cause I think there's something in that it's like, okay, no, we're not just like brushing them away. We're facing them. feeling them. because I think what the problem with so is that I see.

like when you were talking, it became more is that it doesn't like allow any sort of like grieving as one component to it. It's like, no, you gotta just keep moving, keep moving, keep moving. think that's a problem. And I think that actually these people are more stuck in the long yeah, I think focus on emotional agility and kind of the two components being feeling it then still using your will, your intellect to choose like what's good, what.

Tommy (19:37)

Yeah.

does.

Joey Pontarelli (19:54)

the good next action, next step, even in the miswell-bit.

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Tommy (20:35)

I think also, you know, I'm a Catholic and part of the Christian, the Christian narrative, if you will, is, ethos is probably a better word to use, is to allow suffering, suffering is inevitable. When Christ came, He didn't take away suffering, and that kind of shocked a lot of people at the time of like, I thought the Savior was going to take everything away, and didn't take away suffering, He just transformed suffering into meaning, and gave it meaning, it shows how to suffer, so to speak.

Joey Pontarelli (20:50)

Hmm.

Tommy (20:55)

you know, he also, throughout the Gospels, Christ is healing people, but first through sin, by forgiving their sins, and then like, can you make me not paralyze anymore? I can fix your natural evil, but the moral evil and forgiveness is the more important thing to heal. And I the victim, the...

Suffering becomes a debt to pay off like someone needs to pay this debt. That's not mine and that's legitimate a lot of suffer when it's not our fault like why am did I grow up without a father my whole life and many people why my parents have an ugly divorce when I was in high school or whatever And that's a legitimate question then like who is gonna like pay that debt so to speak and you can get stuck in that and not allowing a suffering kind of form the flip side with a stoic or I should say toxic stoicism It takes that suffering and kind of cast

decide is irrelevant. then, but neither actually embracing the suffering and allowing that suffering to mean something and then to grieve it, but then also to allow it to transform you. think, know, ⁓ Avi Crook spes unica, hail the cross, or only hope, is a sentence in which, you know, Christ suffered the most, but also showed us the meaning of and allows us to look to the cross, not in a kind of a depressing or...

Yeah, glorifying of suffering way, but in a way of recognizing that we are still in a veil of tears, but there is hope, and that hope is in heaven, and suffering can transform us to actually make us even stronger pilgrims as we make our way on our journey. And we won't be on skates, but are

what's the word, yeah, crosses or something like that, scars that actually, if properly embraced in a healthy way can actually strengthen us and not actually hinder us at all.

Joey Pontarelli (22:26)

Wow, so good. And thought of that, you know, Jesus could have just taken away is, kind of wild. Like at least he, you know, has like the power to do that, but he chose not to. So there must be some wisdom, some in it, which is kind of wild to think about or some good that can be brought out of it, I should say. Yeah, no, it's, it's wild. I think the more I think about, you I don't know, just life in general, it's like, we're not really here for very long on earth one.

Tommy (22:37)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (22:51)

in the grand scheme of things and two, we're pretty much guaranteed to suffer. Like I even think of it now, like with life, you know, I have a wife, I have two kids, another baby on the way at this point and thank you. Yeah. And, it's awesome. And I love it. And you know, when things are going well, like we're in like a good season, like kind of on an up spiral, it's like, this is great. It would be nice if it was like this way forever. And then there's kind of the sobering reality. It's like, well, there might be a call one day.

Tommy (22:55)

Yeah.

Congrats, wow.

Yes.

Joey Pontarelli (23:17)

that something really bad happened. There might don't know, who knows, something that I might not even be able to stomach at some point. I don't go there often, but it's kind of this reality that like, no, no, life is hard and suffering is inevitable. what you just mentioned, I think, is the only reason there's any sort of hope. Otherwise, it's like everything's meaningless.

Tommy (23:36)

Yeah,

I mean that's have to give Nietzsche credit, you know where he was consistent at least philosophically where he You know says God is dead But then the conclusion is meaninglessness or to kind of like will to power kind of like tread through the chaos Together and try to blaze your own trail It's at least philosophically consistent, but it is depressing some people

are saying there's no greater narrative to life, there's no greater meaning to life, just kind of postmodernism in a nutshell.

But then don't want to accept the fact that life is But then they're also prescribing there's not really a greater arching meaning to, or arc to history itself, or life itself, or existence itself. and so yeah, this is where I think there's the accusation that religion is kind of just a medication to kind of make sense out of things. Or you can believe that there's also some truth there, that it's not just a band-aid or an Advil pill or something, but it's in fact a recognition that there's something, a greater horizon beyond your immanent

and present suffering and therefore that can actually have a transformative and a relevance to this chapter in your book of life and that this chapter will end and then a new chapter will begin and there'll be a reason and relevance and transformation from that chapter.

Joey Pontarelli (24:41)

Love that. Yeah, you make me think of Victor Frankel to who I've mentioned a lot in this show But I love his stuff and how you know, he just contradicted Freud Freud who said that all the only thing we want is humans as pleasure Because you know life is fleeting and we just want to fill ourselves with the most pleasure we can But Freud, know came out very strongly contradicting him saying no That's not what we want more than I think the thing we want more than I think is meaning as a you know Deep reason to live that's bigger than ourselves. And I mean he said that when our lives are

Tommy (24:44)

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (25:08)

avoidive meaning that's where we're most tempted to this like mindless pleasure. think it's so true. And yeah, and I love what you're saying about all of free to interject any final thoughts there, but I had one further thought about stoicism and I remember through kind of my family's breakdown. I remember kind of being suspicious and skeptical of like emotion

Tommy (25:21)

Yeah.

Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (25:30)

not to get too deep into Catholic theology here, kinda misinterpreted St. Ignatius on like, when he was just talking about like consolation and desolation, did anyone mention, listening, know, obviously we all go through periods in life where things are good. And you know, we're, and I'm simplifying this a ton, but when, you know, we're kind of in a good state, we're in a good emotional state, and then we also go through stages in life when things are like really dry and desolate and hard. And so more or less, I thought the goal was to be like somewhere in the middle, kinda like, know, like a stoic.

Tommy (25:38)

Mm.

Hmm. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (25:56)

And I remember just feeling like really empty and not really, ⁓ life was very bland. Cause when I was trying to kind of not avoid the highs, but also avoid the And then I remember visiting my brother who was studying in Austria and just experiencing like the beauty of creation and like having a great time with other people and like traveling and experiencing other cultures, like good food, all that stuff. And I was actually like in the end of high school. It was kind of a crazy situation. I was able to go visit him, but

Tommy (26:02)

Hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (26:21)

Anyway, long story short, I just realized was no way for me to live and that there's actually a lot of depth and beauty to life and a lot of meaning that can be found. And that's kind of the way I've been trying to live my life ever since. But it was a big transformation for me and maybe I'm not articulating it super well, but it almost like reality got color added to it when it was kind of black and white, or at least I thought that was the idea.

Tommy (26:35)

Yeah.

No, it sense.

Yeah.

Well, I think I heard this analogy for prayer, but I think it applies to life at large. And for prayer, you know, some people say, well, do you, are you in love with the Lord or are you in love with the feeling that you think you get from the Lord? Or it's a very common thing from.

churchgoers or Catholics especially, like I don't get anything out of the mass or don't get anything out of going to church, of indicates a sense that you're going the expectation that I need to receive something and if I don't feel then it's not worth my so there's like a dichotomy there of like, okay, do we just need to kind of trudge through and just, you know, do the things we need to do and that's it. And that kind of gets back to the kind of talk stoicism of just sort of like, your due diligence and that's it and feelings that have complete irrelevance or do do you chase the sentimentality?

and

the feeling and so forth. And that's also a problem. this is an analogy for prayer, but I it applies to life where need to have form and fire. Like form meaning discipline and getting up and going your feelings with the wind. The wind blows in your favor or it blows against you. But either way, you stick to your disciplines and what you know you ought to you make those moments, as Ignatius does say, I work at Judicial High School, so I've done some Ignatian formation,

Joey Pontarelli (27:47)

Nice.

Tommy (27:49)

You want to make good decisions in consolation when you feel clear headed. And when you're in a bad state and you're worried or you're anxious, you should not make big decisions because that's when you're like, quick, change things. then, yeah, so when you stick to your disciplines, especially when it gets difficult, but then it doesn't stop you from recognizing the goal that you still want to feel and you still want to consoled, is probably a better word to use, from prayer. And the goal of prayer ultimately is intimacy with the Lord. And so for life, I think there's the same thing.

Joey Pontarelli (27:59)

Hmm.

Tommy (28:17)

of a happy life that looks like Instagram perfect and so forth, but we all know that's not realistic. And so do you just like, just say, screw it all and I'm just gonna live life and pay my bills and death and taxes are the only two inevitable things and that's the narrative of life? Or do you recognize your duties and trudge through those difficult moments and chapters of life?

Joey Pontarelli (28:20)

Yeah.

Tommy (28:33)

but still never stop trying to make sure that you experiencing, you know, everyone lives, what's the cheesy phrase? but not everyone lives or something. But it's the same idea of how you know, stick to your disciplines then still cynical and sort of like accept a sort subtle despair of like, it's how it goes, how life is. But still never stop living life to the fullest. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (28:41)

Yeah, something like that, yeah.

Love that.

No, it's really good. I mean, I see that in you and knowing a little bit about, you know, your family and I definitely am trying to live that out and my family too. So I do think it's possible. see people do it and I think there's a lot of like joy and beauty there for sure. Yeah. And I've heard, I think it was Dr. Ted Suri who kind of similarly talked about like loving your spouse, about how you're not always going to feel it. You need to like will it.

But it's also true that hopefully there's a motion that comes along with it as well. So I like that balance.

Tommy (29:23)

Right, that's a

really good parallel there. that like, yes, philosophically speaking, love is located in the will and not in the passions and not in the emotions. But then people take that too far. It's like, true love is in the will. It's just like, will you marry me? And it's like, well, that's not very romantic. You still wish and hope that there's a parallel, if you will, between the will.

Joey Pontarelli (29:36)

Yeah

Tommy (29:47)

and the passions, right? So like the passion should be a reflection as opposed to a driver.

Joey Pontarelli (29:52)

I like that.

Tommy (29:52)

And so, know,

love should be a sentiment that accompanies what is technically primary, which is what you choose. You what you choose ultimately is the measure of your love. So sometimes you choose the difficult but the higher good when you don't feel it. you shouldn't just be like living life just like begrudgingly doing everything that apparently is good without a sense of seeking harmony among your whole human faculties of intellect, passions, and will.

Joey Pontarelli (30:01)

Hmm.

I love that. Yeah, hopefully you get alignment there and ⁓ yeah, I found like your lot of times your like emotions your passions like can follow your will to so it's like if you You know if I'm not like feeling crazy in love with my wife if I act You know as a man who loves and who is in love then those things what will follow I could talk to you forever about this stuff. anything else you'd add about like I guess childhood or growing up in terms of Yeah, just what that was like just to finish that picture of your

Tommy (30:19)

Hmm.

Yeah

Joey Pontarelli (30:43)

you know, kind of child rearing.

Tommy (30:44)

Yeah, I I think I would just reiterate that I'm deeply grateful for the, I think, mostly totally accurate picture that my a good man, but he's a sick man. I think that that narrative was at times too simplistic and therefore as a result led to a feeling of...

a lack of permission if you will to process the mess or like well, know and to and I think I think anger as a soul of responses is not correct having seasons of anger questioning or confusion is totally healthy to be

I think that's, I'm kind of speaking to the more of a stoic mentality of like, this is what it is and it's good we move forward. And I was by and large the best way to kind of grow up and to recognize and love my dad from a distance.

But of course there were questions that popped up as I got older of even just holes and not knowing lot of big details of my dad and so so I think everyone's story is different, everyone's process for processing is different. so I think there just needs to be permission and that goes back to the same thing we've been talking about of...

having a sort of a mercy or acceptance of an ugly, or not ugly, but a messy process, while still recognizing the ultimate goal is acceptance and moving forward and being transformed by those things. But not allowing that to be premature yeah, there's a book, The Body Keeps a Score, which talks about the physicality of things, but there's a sense of emotions are needing to be processed whether you like it or not, and you can pretend like you're not emotional or you're fine, but then that's just like just putting a timeline in the bottle and eventually it'll

Joey Pontarelli (32:08)

Hmm.

Tommy (32:17)

out later.

⁓ So it's just better to recognize the need to process those things in due time.

Joey Pontarelli (32:23)

That's good. How have you processed things, would you say? I know we've maybe touched on it a little bit, but I'm curious. Yeah, what's been helpful, I guess, for you in terms dealing with all that stuff and especially the emotions.

Tommy (32:33)

I think there were incidents in my life manifested that were, I guess, want to say strange, but were revelatory. And I realized, like, hmm, like what's, or it wasn't me, it was actually in one case a spiritual director who kind of helped me see a greater narrative going on.

So for instance, like when I went to college, I dated a girl my freshman year, which was by and large a really good relationship. I think there even to my own knowledge,

and a lack of awareness of some deeper things I was seeking actually in a father that I was actually trying to seek wrongly obviously in a girlfriend. that's not, I'm not paying the entire picture, but there is these kind of undertones. so when she broke up with me and I was still struggling and processing it way, way later, like even like a year, especially was like, whoa, okay, that's definitely not this girl. Like it's hard to be broken up with obviously.

but it's definitely something else going on. we kind of unpacked that it actually was still stuff for my dad. actually the fact that my grandfather, who was basically the closest I had to a father in my life, passed away before I went to college. And I had kind of like a family habit, just buried it, didn't really process it. I felt like I mourned it, but didn't actually really mourn his passing and realizing how huge that was to lose him. And to lose him at a crucial time in my life when I would have began asking him those deeper questions of life, of what it means to man and so forth. My older brother had that opportunity

and I'm obviously not envious, I'm very grateful he had that, but there's definitely like undertones of little jealousy of desiring the same for myself that he got this whole summer of just hearing my grandpa's wisdom poured into him, I didn't get that. you know, so losing him at that time was really pivotal for me.

And so that's one example out of a couple of recognizing this, okay, there's still stuff I have to process here. so in this particular relationship in college, think there was, you know, one thing I would highlight is that she was definitely not apt to give compliments that she didn't mean, you know, in this sense, there was a sense of a parallel of, know, the father figure, know, when he makes a sense of compliment, he means it. I'm not, you know, saying she was like masculine, but I am saying that there was this,

Joey Pontarelli (34:34)

Yeah.

Tommy (34:34)

⁓

That was an attractive quality of sort of like, she means what she says. also meant when we broke up, when she said certain hurtful things, those carried a lot of weight. Just the same with compliments carried a lot of weight. So yeah, so obviously I would...

Joey Pontarelli (34:43)

Hmm.

Tommy (34:46)

highlights a lot of good things from when I came out of that, but I also am very grateful actually for that experience by which I uncovered unfinished work and my own masculine heart. and also I think that's also where my prayer life really soared because I felt like I was just totally naked and had nothing left. I also realized how bad I was in making male friendships at college. So that really, I cleaned up my act there I poured way too much into this relationship my freshman year. I think that was...

Joey Pontarelli (35:07)

awesome.

Tommy (35:10)

I can highlight a few things, that's the one big thing I want to highlight is like a pivotal moment from my life of recognizing, okay, wow, there's a lot of, like father wounds that are not wounds of abuse, thanks be to God, or wounds of other things, but wounds of absence. And I've had powerful moments in prayer the Lord actually didn't even speak to me, he was sort of present to me, and recognizing him speaking, yeah, kind of an answer to prayer of presence.

as opposed to some kind of you know, lie that I needed to be healed from or so forth. So yeah, there's more to say obviously, but that's think one that is pivotal for me that I highlight.

Joey Pontarelli (35:39)

That's

Yeah, I know that's really helpful love how you mentioned mentors and just how important they were. We'll get to that in a little I think that's just so, so important. That's been so helpful and healing for me But it's so interesting you bring up this idea of like kind of going to the woman something you never got from dad. And I've been there and I know, you know, I'm sure you've read John Eldridge and wow that hard and

Tommy (35:59)

Yeah, all the heart and

Father by God.

Joey Pontarelli (36:03)

Father by,

Father by, yep, totally. Like great books, anyone who hasn't read them and who just wants to, even like women listening, if you want to understand men, John Eldridge has good hand on the pulse. And for men, it's just, it will just give you a lot of insight into yourself. But I just remember him talking about like how, I might butcher this, but know, the man goes to the woman to like offer his strength, not to find it.

Tommy (36:24)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (36:24)

And

man, have I found myself going to the woman to find strength, to find affirmation, just find again those things, the affirmation, the love, the whatever that I didn't get from mom or dad growing up. so I think we need to find it somewhere. And that's the thing I think where some people maybe stop. They just say, go to the woman for that. And then they never really give you the other option. So it sounds like your relationship with God has been really big. prayer life really big. You mentioned your spiritual director. What other mentors kind of...

Tommy (36:28)

Yeah.

Mm. Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (36:50)

walked alongside you and just challenged you to grow.

Tommy (36:51)

Yeah.

Yeah, so is kind of like the key for my process was just how to handle my own emotions, which where I had a little... Because I am, you know, I admit it in broad daylight now, I am a sensitive person. we think of sensitive as an inherently negative thing, meaning like you're touchy or like, whoa, like your emotions are ⁓ overly active. But we noticed the root word there is the same as sense.

Joey Pontarelli (37:09)

Yeah

Tommy (37:16)

as sensible. Like, he's a sensible person. That's like a very high compliment. He's sensible. He's got a- a handle on things. And yet sensitive. in any case, I think I've had my own grappling with like thinking about what does it mean to have yeah, I guess very operative passions. We'll put it that way.

I have a daughter who's very, she has very operative passions. And so it's at times with temper tantrums, it's ugly and it's intense and messy. And at times when she's very affectionate and very thoughtful, it's just deeply beautiful. And so you just kind of see her little two-year-old heart. And so I think I had a process of coming to accept that about myself where I had unfortunately a lot of cases of self-loathing for that character trait or that ⁓ also heard a homey one time by priest talking about

this notion of masculine and femininity and we tend to think of like a spectrum. These are the masculine virtues, these are the feminine virtues, and if you possess a lot of these feminine virtues, like for instance I can paint pretty well, can do certain things, I feel like I've been good at listening, understanding what people tell me and trying to have insight or whatever. Certain things that seem like And then that seems like I must be pushing a line toward the feminine side, therefore I must be less masculine inherently.

And the point he was saying is like actually you need to recognize this more like buckets that Christ possessed all virtues. And he was the ultimate man, but also we should be aspiring toward all virtues as opposed to like the spectrum of like the tinge between male and female. ⁓ So I think...

Joey Pontarelli (38:31)

you

Tommy (38:39)

The breakup was very pivotal for me because the fact I felt raw and was at war with myself. ⁓ And I didn't feel anger at God or even her. I just felt anger toward myself. anger toward my own personality traits, in some ways, immaturity that I felt manifesting as I couldn't handle my emotions and I felt like a mess. I felt my friends were leaving me because I was too messy to deal with or was too much of a Debbie Downer. And that was a really hard time of feeling very lonely.

that's also the time that I had a lot of mentors come out of the woodwork and really see me and kind of in some ways put that hand on my shoulder saying I wasn't too much and that's yeah maybe I was a mess but I was a mess that's worth cleaning up. I will never forget a conversation I had with a mentor. Now he's Brother Maximilian, he's a Benedictine monk, but at the time he was a senior.

Joey Pontarelli (39:20)

I love that.

Tommy (39:27)

He talked about Lazarus and he's like, what did Christ do? And I was like, I knew the answer, I was kinda like, I don't know. And just like, and says like, I don't wanna forget, he's effing bald. Maybe it's scandalous that he was the efferent, he's a monk now. Wasn't it yet. But he was just trying to really make that point to me, that Christ had very intense emotions and they were ordered.

Joey Pontarelli (39:37)

Yeah.

Tommy (39:47)

And there's different moments where he had to go to pray or he was with people or so forth, but he was a man for all seasons. then emotion inherently is not an evil thing or a bad thing. he was trying to heal my own idyllic...

Yeah, idolization of like the machismo stoic who has no emotions, complete control. And that to me was like the man I was trying to achieve and I felt totally unable to. And my own grandfather actually was also very, yeah, very, I wouldn't call him like emotional, but very the more sensitive spectrum, if you will. ⁓ Like deeply artistic, but also an engineer and very mathematical too. And so he possessed a sense of, but he was the like, my grandfather was the one to say, stop and smell the roses, stop and listen to the music and like soak it in.

So think those are the moments that I really kind of accepted my own, this can be part of my masculinity in a tangible and good way. And so I think it was that student now, Brother Maximilian, another senior at the time, his name is also Tommy.

Joey Pontarelli (40:33)

Hmm.

this.

Tommy (40:39)

also had his own kind of struggles. ⁓ So there's a sense of camaraderie, but also mentorship, because he's older than me. And I would go to the porch and talk to him every Saturday. It was incredible. And ⁓ a professor at the college that, when I studied abroad, really kind of...

Yeah, I guess it really affirmed me in the sense of my own mind and intellect, which is also something that wasn't really affirmed before. ⁓ I come from a pretty smart family and I always felt like I was a dumb ox. so that was a healing moment as well, a feeling like the sense that my intellect is also good and wanted to talk to me in dialogue and so forth. So I'll stop there. I don't want to talk too much, but I think the point though is that mentors...

Joey Pontarelli (41:20)

Great.

Tommy (41:22)

when I recognized I needed to recognize that vacancy then have them kind of be invited into mentors like helping me and recognize they wanted to when I felt like otherwise my life was always a rental I had to kind rent mentors you know it's like okay I'll tell you my problems and I'll tell you quick so you can give me an answer quick and I'll be on my way because I know you know I'm not your son and I don't belong to anyone so that was something adults work through

Joey Pontarelli (41:44)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (41:47)

or just click the link in the show notes.

Joey Pontarelli (42:50)

Wow, so much there. No, thanks for going through all that. I, see this trend in my story as well as yours of just like the affirmation we received from like, you know, typically older, wiser men, whether they're like much older than us or like you said, just like a few years ahead of us. something really powerful in that. And I don't know if I totally understand it fully, but like we crave that we need that. Like that's how we become men. That's how we kind of grow in our masculinity. And I love

Tommy (43:11)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (43:15)

what you mentioned too about how masculinity doesn't just look one way. Like have to like hunting and drink beer and like do all these like, know, things that you'd think maybe a typical guy would do. But there's like this possibility of like, yeah, this depth that you can have, which I think is amazing. I think of ⁓ Pope Saint John Paul II, just how he was, you know, such a deep intellectual, but he played sports, he hiked,

Tommy (43:39)

Correct.

Joey Pontarelli (43:40)

wrote poetry, acted, like all these things that maybe you would think of someone who's more like sensitive or the feminine virtues like you He was probably the most masculine person I can think of. I've met people who like Jocko Willink, if you guys are familiar with Jocko Willink, the Navy Seal. I've spent a little bit of time with him doing some training and yeah, he's just as like scary and manly as you'd think.

Tommy (43:54)

⁓ Yeah.

Excuse

Joey Pontarelli (44:01)

And he's,

Tommy (44:02)

me.

Joey Pontarelli (44:02)

but at the same time, the guy like plays music and he actually would write like poetry, studied English. So anyway, there's like this kind of dual component, not to go too far into that, but I think that like idea like for me, it was a spiritual director, a mentor, really he's a spiritual also he was, he's a married guy who just had training in spiritualism, he wasn't like a priest. So he was able to like kind of affirm me and guide me, mentor me in a way that maybe someone who didn't have the background wouldn't be able to.

Tommy (44:10)

⁓ Yeah.

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (44:29)

And man, I just experienced so much healing from, and so much like, ⁓ I felt like so much more of a man after like with him, working with him, getting his advice. And I think at the core of it was that affirmation.

Tommy (44:31)

Yeah.

Yeah, there was another person in Nashville that I, when I after college I went to Nashville and he actually now is a therapist and I was talking to on the phone when he was in training so I feel like I kind of stole probably thousands of dollars of free therapy just by talking to the phone with this was also figure in my life of just walking me through things and I when life gets very difficult and challenging.

Those are the moments you see the whole of not having a father. And I think for those who have divorced parents or separate parents, maybe they're close with mom and not dad or vice versa. Obviously in my case, it's dad. And so those are the moments you feel the lack of one pick up the phone and talk to him and not feel like it's a burden because he's your dad. And you know he wants to help you. But in those moments when you have a pivotal moment in your life and you don't know who to call, it's difficult.

But I think one final note to say on just mentors is same spiritual director I talked about before, called me one time to kind of do kind of a quasi phone spiritual direction and talk to me. But I was telling him what I was up to in college and I was, you know, being truly honest, I was seeking to brag, I was just telling him what I was up to, which was a lot. Like it was an absurd amount, like I was like around the clock. know, I'm managing this, I'm taking these classes, da da da, and.

He's like listening, like, that's all great Tommy. He's like, are still trying to prove yourself to your dad that's not there to see all this? And it was just like one of those moments of just like straight to the heart of the matter. I felt like almost like the phone reached out with a hand and punched me in the stomach. Because it was just like such a, he just, he saw right through the BS. Not that what I was doing was BS, but he saw the motivation of my excessive seeking of accomplishments.

Joey Pontarelli (46:07)

How, yeah.

Yeah.

Tommy (46:19)

I've done a lot of things in my life that I'm proud of, that's great, but there's definitely been an undertone of like, prove yourself. Like again, back to my earlier podcast, like in this podcast saying, I know my life's a miracle, like I shouldn't have been conceived. Like my dad was already showing signs of being unhealthy before I was even conceived. So my life's a miracle, so make it worth something. just the sense dad's there and my, you love me? Do you really love me? It's a sense of.

this ache of the heart to hear a father's voice to affirm. And when it feels like it's not there, then you find yourself with a consciously or subconsciously chasing an affirmation via accomplishments. So what was healing for me is just like trying to tone that down, but also to receive affirmation from men. And then that's also with our girlfriend that, you know, it can be great to receive compliments, but a girlfriend can never give you what you're seeking from a father, obviously.

Joey Pontarelli (46:56)

Wow.

Yeah.

Tommy (47:07)

And so when

I actually had mentors who were older than me, who were actual sages, compliment me or to affirm me in ways that were palpable, those are deeply healing. And actually I could feel different chaps in my life have kind of like slowing down a little bit I don't need to hustle so hard just to prove my lovability. And a lot of us find ourselves chasing this unknown destination just to feel loved by a parent or a wound, you're trying to heal. And it's important to diagnose that.

Joey Pontarelli (47:23)

Bye.

Hmm.

Yeah, no, so and harder than it seems. Now, like looking back, know, so you're so articulate about it, but I bet it was a journey to like even get to that point of figuring it out. So I'm totally with you there. I want to touch on quickly something you said about this idea of being like needy or messy or whatever language we'd throw around it. I think there's a lot of people who find themselves in this position, especially if you've gone through trauma and you have like

Tommy (47:36)

Yeah.

Hmm. Anyways.

Yes.

you

Joey Pontarelli (47:59)

Yeah, your emotions may be all over the place. You're struggling with maybe bad habits or your relationship seems not to be working out. And you could feel like this mess, this problem that maybe no one wants to deal with. If someone finds himself in that situation, I'm curious to your advice, like what should they do? Cause obviously on one of the spectrum, we don't want to like bring all of our problems to like one person and like dump it on them. Cause then they'll probably not be able to handle, especially if it's like the friend or a peer, so not really equipped to do that.

Tommy (48:20)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (48:27)

the other end of the spectrum, it'd be really dangerous. Like we were talking about before to be like, no, I'm going to like do it solo. I'm going to go alone figure this out and, you know, put on a good face. So yeah, what's your advice to someone who maybe finds himself quote unquote needy or kind of kind of a helpless.

Tommy (48:41)

Yeah,

mean one obvious answer would be like therapy is I think it's there's been a lot of good movement and the stigma surrounding therapy that people are recognizing truthfully and properly that you know we need doctors for physical health why don't we need doctors for mental health and I think unfortunately the trajectory is that we're mentally very unhealthy more and more in the modern age and so we need a lot of doctors for our minds to help us kind of ⁓ so I think there are certain things that

are spiritual in nature that you need a priest for or a spiritual direction to pray. But there's also certain things that you can't just like pray away. There's like just legitimate psychological things you should consider a work through. I definitely know my dad can pray away his OCD or the abuse that happened to him or his previous history of anorexia. so I think that's one more obvious thing. But I think, but even that can be difficult because I've been to therapy.

a couple times, first two men I saw were, unfortunately, were very unhelpful. They were actually just kind of, let's figure out the problem, solve it, and just felt like talking at me. And I actually felt almost more of a burden, like I was taking too long to process, or they feel like my story's being absorbed so that they can kind of have actual insight into my story. And so I just felt like we fixed the problem and move I think that as a gift that, you

Joey Pontarelli (49:48)

I get that.

Tommy (49:52)

generally speaking when they bring to this world of not being utilitarian and how they approach life. so I would say that should be a viable option, but also that can cost a lot of money I think ideally it's community of recognizing true mentors and good friends. And I think there's a, I don't know, I guess the more intense the issue or the sensitivity of it, there's a more of a tendency to

offloaded to one person so it's kind of neat and tidy and then I can box I think there's some health something healthy who know you and have the right amounts of knowledge of you based on their knowledge of you. What's that? How do I phrase this? It's like you know a lot of people know that I grew up without a dad but then a lot of my cleanesses may know that and that's it and then that can stay that way unless our friendship would deepen.

Joey Pontarelli (50:20)

Hmm.

sure.

Tommy (50:37)

And

then there's like mentors and then deeper friends who know more of a story. And I think it's appropriate because there's a sense of an onion or a layers to people's knowledge of you and your story. that you're not like, it's one person has all this mess and everyone else thinks my picture perfect life. And that's like to live in communities. You don't want to be, you know, back to the, you know, bottle versus a brood. You don't want to be like walking around the problems to everybody, but you also don't want to pretend like you're this perfect person to everyone you meet as well.

Joey Pontarelli (51:00)

Yeah.

Tommy (51:04)

So I think those who feel messy, think yeah, seek mentors and don't apologize for it. at least I'm gonna give them asking perspective here. I'm not a woman, but I know going to a man and saying, hey, can I've done this to men. I've gotten bolder as I've gotten older. I'm like, need advice in this particular area. I actually just grew up without a father. And sometimes there's certain questions I don't know who to ask and I need a mentor. And older men.

Joey Pontarelli (51:26)

Awesome.

Tommy (51:28)

respond very well typically to that question. I think there's a deep desire for older men to impart their wisdom, which is also being lost in our modern culture, where the idea of older people are considered more outdated and actually less knowledgeable, and younger people are more knowledgeable because we have the internet and they're more tech savvy. When the old way of looking at life was that the older people are ahead of you in life, have lived more life, and have more to offer you, more wisdom, and they're our sages.

Joey Pontarelli (51:31)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Tommy (51:52)

And so I think we need to reclaim that, of recognizing the wisdom of older and that they can have something to offer Even a marriage, a couple have lived and been through a long marriage, like I know this is tough, but you'll be through this and it's gonna be okay. And they're not bothered by what you're telling them. And that's deeply consoling. I'm giving just a hypothetical here, same can apply to talking to a mentor or a sage story of your parent's separation and how to cope with that.

Joey Pontarelli (52:03)

Yeah.

No, so good. And what I've learned there before we move on, there's like this kind of gentle balance between going to other people for help and wisdom and guidance and everything, which is like, totally agree with you. That's super necessary. And in some people's situation, making sure you're acting on it. Cause I think there can be this tendency I've seen in some people where we kind of can become addicted to the knowledge or the advice.

Tommy (52:34)

Hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (52:43)

or even the relationship itself, almost as if, well, this problem or this struggle that I have gets the attention of these people that I want their attention. And therefore I'm never really motivated to solve it because it keeps getting their attention. ⁓ And so I think like it's important that we're, you know, actually, you know, taking what they say and putting in an action because I think there can, you can cut in this loop as well. Anything you'd add there before we move on?

Tommy (52:43)

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, I would just say, think particularly for friends, good friends obviously are not there you just vent for venting sake, but to help you. And so a real friend would also can tell a difference between a need to kind of unload something off your chest or to take it to something versus like, okay, you're just venting now. Didn't you talk to me about this two weeks ago? Have you done anything about that? Like, didn't we talk about you doing this or this or this? Have you done any of those things? Like, and a mentor can do that too, but I sometimes friends in that peer level. I would add that...

Joey Pontarelli (53:30)

Yeah.

Tommy (53:34)

This is where community is helpful, is that you're in community, you're with people, and you're accompanying one another. You're carrying each other's burdens. That's true communion of the good, the bad, and the ugly. don't want to stay in the ugly or the bad, but you also want to celebrate the good, but then you recognize the dynasm of life. And if you're doing phone calls to a friend across the country, ⁓ they're not with you, they're not seeing you, they're not seeing improvements, and there's something very beautiful about the incarnate experience of being with people.

and can hold you accountable to continue to strive toward healing.

Joey Pontarelli (54:06)

I love that. That's great advice. Just before we close down here, I'm curious if there are any other ⁓ maybe big problems, whether it was bad habits or I know we talked quite a bit about emotions, but emotional problems or kind of relationship struggles that you saw kind of stem from everything that happened within the family.

Tommy (54:10)

Yeah.

Mm.

could go in to talk about habits, but I think the bigger thing I would articulate is lies that I believed that I had to heal from. And they still crop up. It's not like I'm a totally healed person or something. But the first one is I would say is I am alone. That is a huge lie. mean, again.

speak from my Catholic perspective, the devil, the learning means to separate, to cast apart, God's whole movement is communion, bringing together, integrity meaning the integers are one, to remember, to bring back the members into one. And the devil is all about isolation and making you feel like you're alone, because once you feel like you're alone, you can't ask for anyone to help you, then he's got you, and he can do whatever he wants with you, because then he's your master.

Loneliness is a very big epidemic right now, but also the lie of I am alone because that's an existential thing. I think I felt that very potently when I had that breakup or other moments in my life. We're feeling misunderstood and then feeling like the accusations like, you feel misunderstood because you're so sensitive and get over it. And then that kind of like deepening and then that deepening self-loathing and so forth and that being a very unhealthy cycle. And so I've had to do a lot of work on trusting that I am.

Joey Pontarelli (55:26)

Hmm.

Tommy (55:36)

I am not alone. prayed through the gospels of the baptism in River Jordan and this is my beloved son with whom I'm well pleased. ⁓ And Father by God actually was a pivotal book for me to kind of recognize and know that I'm ultimately never alone. I think ⁓ another one is just regarding, I already mentioned, it's the I still do it, but I catch myself when I'm doing it. The ways that I'm being performative for the sake of proving my worth.

like I, you know, thanks be to God, I finished a master's degree. and I know at the culmination of it, it was all good intentions, but there's even in the midst of it, I'm like, okay, am I doing this just to catch up with my siblings? Or am I doing this just to feel at par with others or to prove myself that I can do it or that I'm lovable, you know? And those are things you have to ask yourself when you're trying to aspire to some great accomplishment or good, or even how busy you are.

Joey Pontarelli (56:04)

Congrats.

Tommy (56:24)

For whatever reason, we feel guilty for leisure in America especially. It's like, how are you doing? Busy. it's like like, we hail it as a wonderful thing. When it's not going to be busy. It's actually very bad to be busy. It's a sin to overwork. There's a commandment, know, the Sabbath day. It's sin to be lazy, that's true. But it's also sin to overwork. And so I've had to think about that one of like my busy-bodiness. I've prayed a lot through Mary and Martha in the gospels of Martha just running around.

Joey Pontarelli (56:38)

Hmm.

Tommy (56:48)

And because ultimately she also wants to be at her Lord's feet and be loved. But she's unable to because of the interior problem as opposed to Mary who's got the capacity to just receive. So that's a big one. Yeah, and think would say a simpler thing is just like my life's a miracle, which is true, but to accept that as a good thing and not to feel like that's also a diagnosis or an imperative make my life worthwhile or look impressive or something.

and just to live my life and to know that God has found the present moment and to live my God's will in each day without sort of like trying to aspire to these great things for the sake of saying, it was worth it. I'm a great accomplished person and my life was actually worth living. And that sounds almost suicidal. I don't mean to imply that sort of thing, but that's the other Yeah, so I think, I would say lies are the ones that I had to battle with the most of these kind of subliminal things.

Joey Pontarelli (57:29)

Hmm. No, no.

Good.

Tommy (57:38)

that then manifest in certain actions, similar to my dad, there's an obsession and there's a compulsion. And I think in the same way for me, there's been lies that I've believed because of an absence of a father a insecurity, meaning like this lack of a secure knowledge of being beloved, of being a son and so forth, and that manifesting then as a compulsion in a sense of my own way, my own way of proving myself because I'm really looking for an answer to a question should be found elsewhere.

Joey Pontarelli (58:05)

Wow, so good. And I love like that I've never really heard anyone articulate that whole idea that like I shouldn't really be here and so therefore I have to make my life worth something. I think maybe people feel it in a different way, but I love that idea. Like what I heard you saying was like your life is a not a competition. Like there's not something you need to like win or perform at here, which I think is really beautiful for all of us here. So good. I love all that man. And

What else, in addition to anything you've mentioned, would you recommend to people when it comes to healing? You mentioned mentorship, spiritual direction, anything else you would say? I know you mentioned a book here, there too, a few books.

Tommy (58:41)

Yeah,

I actually want to read your book. I was actually unaware of it until recently, so I'm excited to. Life Healing Wounds is another one that I've actually unpacked a little bit. I still haven't finished that book. More explicitly talking about divorce, separation, and so forth. But yeah, mean, think books have been helpful. But I think overall, think it is owning your story.

Joey Pontarelli (58:50)

Nice.

Tommy (58:59)

And in a way that goes back to same thing we've talking about a lot of stoicism versus victimhood or bottle versus brood is to process the emotions and to have knowledge to process, like to have knowledge of what happened and to process it. That's more of my story because I have data because I was so young I didn't even remember it. So my story is different even than my brother's because he saw a lot of it happen when he was like seven or Whereas for me, I had no memory.

different kind of, know, in some ways easier, in some ways maybe more difficult, I don't know, it doesn't really matter. It's different. but ultimately I think what's what's helped me the most is sort of like I just said an ownership of this is my story and so I...

I don't want to live by it in the sense of, oh yeah, I'm the guy without a father, because that can be helpful. So for instance, I work at a high school and I've taught, and there's moments where in class I can see this question and I tell a piece of my story that would be very relevant and helpful. But I don't walk into places just revealing it for the sake of, oh, look at this guy who suffered. Because I also think that sometimes suffering is weaponized, where it's like I've suffered more, and that's also the victimhood complex of who's

greater victim. And this also breaks my heart about divorce and separation in general is that it's so common.

think a lot of people don't feel like they have permission to suffer or permission to feel hurt or sadness because like, well, it's half of America, so get over just because something is common does not make it any less intense. And I guess my story seems a bit more exotic or, well, you know, there is mental illness, there's abuse and family history and, you know, I grew up without a father and I have a heroic mother. That's all true. But it doesn't mean that normal story of parents have disagreements, they divorced and now you have two best

Joey Pontarelli (1:00:14)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Tommy (1:00:39)

bedrooms is any less, in fact it could be in lot of ways, in many ways, much harder than I did not experience. I didn't have two bedrooms. I wasn't splitting time. ⁓ So I think it's just a path of ownership and acceptance live life. So not ignoring, but not identifying with. that takes many forms of friends, of mentors, of books, of prayer.

Joey Pontarelli (1:00:44)

Hmm.

them.

Tommy (1:00:58)

⁓ So I wouldn't give it like one diagnosis. I think that's the goal. But there's many different paths that help build that up. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:06)

Yeah, I I love that advice. I remember Alex Hormozzi, business influencer guy. He says there's no silver bullets, only like hundred golden BBs. There's like a lot of little things you need to do. And I think it's just so true in life. There's like, man, if there was like one thing you could do to be healthy and whole, we would all probably do it, but there's not, there's a lot of little things you need to do. So I love that advice. It's good. And ⁓ yeah, man, I work.

Tommy (1:01:23)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:28)

Pretty much out of time now. I wish we could talk more about like relationships and marriage, but maybe we'll save that for a future episode. I guess in closing, if you could, you know, speak to parents and maybe say anything that, you know, you would want to just be honest about everything, like what would you say?

Tommy (1:01:30)

Okay.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, I have articulated, but I feel like I can never tie or articulate my admiration for my mother and how she handled everything ⁓ and how she was, yeah, just, she sacrificed so much for us. So directly to her, there was not much I would want to say directly to my mother you know.

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:48)

Easy question.

Tommy (1:02:06)

But I think perhaps to my siblings, it's a feeling that like if I've said something that's been difficult with my mother or challenge that my siblings come to our defense and say that I feel my own sense of immediately come to my mom's defense because we know how much she suffered, how much she's done for us. But that comes with it again, this inability to say anything. And that's been challenging because we need to have freedom to process without being accused of being ungrateful. And that's a challenging thing. And I would really emphasize that, that a lot of people feel like if I criticize or process or say something that's difficult, therefore I must

Joey Pontarelli (1:02:28)

Hmm.

Tommy (1:02:36)

be ungrateful to. It's like, look how much my mom suffered, my dad suffered, and they get to point to those and it's like, that's all true. I'm not disregarding those by saying, this has been difficult for me. Or you misunderstand someone saying something and know what you meant, but I'm just trying to process what I've understood or perceived it. mean, to my dad, I think, you know, I wish I could...

tell him I love him and I do when I have had those opportunities and given those big life updates of his granddaughter, his first grandchild, and that was getting married and those letters that I wrote him.

But yeah, I do have more honest, raw questions of like, okay, how much could you have done? know, financially speaking, he didn't support us whatsoever. Like it was rough. ⁓ We grew up externally looking very middle class, but the reality is we grew up very poor. I'm grateful for certain things, but, ⁓ and that was a huge hardship. so I really believe in providence. know God will provide, know, with very little means. But, you know, that's one more raw thing I would, you know,

Joey Pontarelli (1:03:24)

Hmm.

Tommy (1:03:36)

I wouldn't say say to my dad, I don't want to have this revengeful, the one-liner mic drop. ⁓ But in a conversation, yeah, there's always more I'd love to understand and to forgive because you can't really forgive if you don't know. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (1:03:40)

Yeah, that's it.

Tommy (1:03:51)

and this is actually still current for me of like unpacking certain things that happened or and understanding what was truly his illness versus what was more willed and kind of yeah kind of like a negligence on his part of what he could have done because it all began when my mom gave an ultimatum of saying Either you continue going to this therapy this this program to heal or I have to leave you and unfortunately his he stopped going and he's like i'll be fine ⁓ and so my mom left with all of us thinking it would be maybe a day and that became

days, weeks, months, years. So I think there's always a desire to have conversation, but you know wouldn't be like a one-line mic drop.

Joey Pontarelli (1:04:26)

Yeah, I know that, mean, there's a lifetime of things to say, I'm sure. So I definitely appreciate you sharing all that. And I know I just appreciate your attention between like acknowledging the good, but also the hard things. And yeah, I think there is that temptation sometimes in all of us to think that those things are mutually exclusive when they're not. can say both. Yeah, which I definitely am.

Tommy (1:04:29)

Yeah. ⁓

course.

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (1:04:47)

think is appropriate and necessary. But Tommy, so good to you man. Thank you. You have so much wisdom. I hope you know that. I'm so impressed to learn a lot from you through this interview. So appreciate you sharing that with all of us. And I know better for it. So thank you for being on the show. I want to give you the final word. What final advice, encouragement would you offer to everyone listening, especially maybe that younger you who's out there right now listening, what would you say to them?

Tommy (1:05:08)

What

I say to my younger self? That's a hard one. I mean, I know this is maybe corny, but yeah, mean, just say it's not your fault. ⁓ But that's a loaded question or a loaded statement. You know, of course, we can think of good will hunting and that scene of Matt Damon breaking down. It's not your fault with Robin Williams. But there's a sense of owning. This happened to you. This is not good.

And it's not your fault. So I don't know to me that that statement implies You know this this did happen. So accept that

but also forgive them, forgive yourself in a sense for any kind of false accusation that may have occurred in you. To me, would be like stop being so performative, like you can relax and not try to like do every last thing and feel anxious that you're not doing enough, your resume's not packed enough and all this other kinds of nonsense. Yeah, so I would say that's the, there's been a lot of like seeking approval, seeking love. And I that's probably the biggest thing

is you're loved infinitely, your life is infinite dignity and value it's okay to feel these things but also to not just to sit in them and so I guess I keep going back to that same theme of acceptance means recognizing but not sulking. That's hard to do and it's a long process to have patience with yourself that is the journey and we're all in a journey and tend to have this utopian idea of like okay I'll be better on the other side. It's like well I mean there is enough

the

side but not fully like we're always going to be in a pilgrimage in the veil of tears there's always gonna be suffering and difficulty and so it's about acceptance and allowing those things to transform you but the new sufferings will occur to embrace them yeah so it's not your

Joey Pontarelli (1:06:54)

That wraps up this episode. By the way, if you want to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. If you want, we could even post your story as an anonymous blog article on our website. Go to restoredministry.com slash just click the link in the show notes to share your story.

free to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And if you've already done free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find the podcasts.

In closing, always remember, you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CSU who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Restored 6/18/25 Restored 6/18/25

#151: Even Necessary Divorces Hurt | Brandy

When Brandy was only a few months old, her parents divorced due to her father’s alcoholism. From the outside, her story might seem like a “best case” scenario. But underneath it all, she carried wounds no one could see.

When Brandy was only a few months old, her parents divorced due to her father’s alcoholism. From the outside, her story might seem like a “best case” scenario—she was raised by a courageous single mom and later a kind stepfather.

But underneath it all, she carried wounds no one could see. She believed perfection was the path to love. She feared becoming like the very people who hurt her. One wound even stayed buried for 20 years.

In this episode, we explore:

The shocking memory that resurfaced in adulthood—and what it revealed
Why her marriage should’ve failed statistically—and how she and her husband beat the odds
And what her mom did right that every divorced parent needs to hear

If you've ever felt pressure to be perfect, feared repeating your parents’ marriage, or kept wounds hidden, this episode is for you.

#084: Angry at God? Why People from Broken Families Struggle Extra in Their Relationship with Him | Sr. Miriam James Heidland

#039: The Anatomy of a Wound & How to Heal | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:59)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pannarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate all the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. guest today is Brandy. Brandy currently serves as the executive director of a nonprofit called Chastity Project, a ministry that's dedicated to inspiring teens and young adults to embrace and live out authentic love in the virtue of chastity. Before ministry,

Brandy enjoyed over two decades of leadership in public education. She wore many hats throughout her career, including teacher, instructional coach, assistant principal, principal, and director of communications among others. Brandy earned a bachelor's degree in interdisciplinary studies from Texas A and College Station, followed by a master's degree in education leadership from Texas A ⁓ and Texarkana. She also holds certifications as both a Texas principal and superintendent. And outside of her...

Professional life, Brandy is a devoted wife to her husband Dan and a proud mother to their four children. Now when Brandy was just a few months old, her parents divorced due to her father's alcoholism and from the outside, her story ended up looking like a best case scenario. She was raised by a really courageous single mom and later a kind stepfather. But underneath it all, she carried wounds that no one could see. She believed that perfection was the path to love. She feared becoming like the very people who hurt her and one wound even stayed hidden for 20 years.

And so in this episode, we explore all of that, plus how our wounds from divorce, from abuse, from absent parents certainly shape us, but they don't have to define us. We talk about the shocking memory that resurfaced in adulthood for her and what it revealed, how being the good kid can actually be a trauma response and the hidden impact that divorce can have on children, even when it's handled well. We talk about why her marriage should have failed statistically and how she and her husband beat those odds and have built a healthy marriage.

And finally, what her mom did right that every divorced parent needs to hear. I'm really impressed with her mom. And so if you felt pressure to be perfect, you feared repeating your parents' marriage or kept wounds hidden, this episode is for you. Now in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. This is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is just to listen with an open mind. Even if you take out the God parts, skip the God parts, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode. And with that, here's my conversation with

Brandy.

So good to have you here. Welcome to this show.

Brandy (03:21)

Thank you for having me, Joey. I'm excited to be with you today.

Joey (03:24)

I want to dive right in. I'm excited to learn more about your story. I know bits and pieces of it, but to hear it cohesively, I'm really looking forward to. From what you remember, what you were told, what was life like in the months and years before your parents split?

Brandy (03:39)

So my story is, well don't know how unique it is, but unique to most of the kids that I could relate to when I was younger who had experienced divorce. My parents divorced when I was just a couple months old. So I don't have any memories of what was going on at home. So I can only just relate what I was told. My biological father was an alcoholic. He, praise God, has been in recovery for.

a long, time now, but he was an alcoholic. And so, you know, all of the things that come with that late nights out partying and drinking with buddies and ⁓ infidelity and, you know, just all of the emotional really abuse, you know, for my mother that she endured by not having an equal partner in their marriage, somebody that she could depend on and rely on. So it was quite volatile, you know, as I understand it.

And my mother, once I was born, she said she knew immediately, you know, that she could not raise me in that environment, you know, that it was not healthy for me, also not healthy for her to stay. And so she would often pick me up and sort of head out the door and he would be home and she would be explaining to him that she needed to leave. And he would take me from her and say, well, you can leave, but you can't take her. And so of course my mother wasn't going to leave me behind.

So she would stay. you know, and I think that's, you know, probably relatable to a lot of women in situations like that. You know, they have children, have, you know, they may be relying on their partner for income. And so my mom had nothing. I mean, she had no college degree. She, you know, just really didn't have anything. And so she would stay. And then finally, one day, by the grace of God, he came home, as I understand it, and was intoxicated. And she said, I'm going to leave.

And he allowed her to leave. She tells the story that she explained to him in a very calm way that, you know, if he didn't allow us to leave, you know, if he could think through what my life would be like and how I might grow up to hate him because of what he had put us through. And so that was the turning point for him, you know, that he decided, I guess, in that moment that he didn't want that to be the case, that he didn't want me to grow up hating him. And so he allowed us to leave. And so.

You know, while divorce is never a good option for anybody in this case, it was, you know, really probably my mother's only option because he was not willing to, to change. But yeah, was quite volatile.

Joey (06:10)

Okay, yeah, and you're so young and that makes sense that something needed to change, something needed to happen and wow, no, I mean, I can't imagine what your mom went through and that's something I think, yeah, with age and whatever level of maturity I've been able to acquire, I have definitely tried to put myself in my parents shoes more to like understand what they were going through. So that's beautiful you've been able to do that. It sounds like you've had some conversations with your mom.

Brandy (06:33)

Yes. And that's been when we can talk more about this later, but one healing piece for me has been that my mom has always been open to conversations about questions I may have. that's been really good. My mom and I are close.

Joey (06:48)

Yeah, no, that's wonderful. And especially like you said, if it's before your explicit memory, like your cognitive memory develops, then you don't know, you won't be able to pull those images up, but your, your body remembers like you had, went through those experiences. So it's definitely helpful. I found for sure to have someone who's able to, to relay that. And one maybe point here, and I know we could talk later about this. If your parents are unwilling to talk about this, maybe there's someone else in your life who can, I remember learning a lot about just like the family dynamics and my parents' families through

relatives through know aunts and uncles so I think that's a good tip if someone's thinking like well can't have that conversation with mom or I can't have that conversation with dad for one reason or another is anything you would add to that

Brandy (07:27)

Yeah, no, I think that's really important. As a former educator, I mean, I for sure tried to make sure that I was speaking into the lives of children who might have been, you know, going through the same things and felt like that was one way that God could use me in that career, you know, and had a number of conversations with kids when they would, you know, be upset about something going on in their family with regard to divorce or parents fighting.

You know, and tried to just listen, but then relate to them that you're not the only one and we could talk about it and I would share my story or, whatever bit of my story was appropriate. So I do think that's really important for kids of any age. mean, even into your adult years, you know, being able to talk about the things that happened. That's huge.

Joey (08:13)

Huge. Yeah, because when you bottle it up, it doesn't lead to great things, which we could talk more later about. But I'm curious as a principal, as an educator, like you said, what did you observe in the young people you were leading who did come from like divorced or dysfunctional families, like highly dysfunctional families? And yeah, were there any kind of go-to tactics in addition to what you mentioned of like having conversation, offering empathy that you would use?

Brandy (08:35)

Yeah,

well, I would say this, you know, and I think you've talked about this on the podcast quite often. Maybe one misconception is that if the divorce feels more amiable, you know, between the two parents and maybe it was a low conflict situation. So I think the misconception that comes along with that is that the kids don't really suffer, you know, that they'll be fine. And I think most people probably would have thought that about me because I was so young. she'll be fine. She doesn't, you know, there's, there's no

real trauma from this. But I think that's important for adults to just remember that it does always affect children, always, know, regardless of even in a situation like mine where it's really for the good of the family, you know, when there's abuse or something involved, it still, you know, leaves kids with questions in their minds about who they are and what part of it they played. so

I think, just being open to discuss things with children is really important. And then the other thing that I think is really important for parents to remember, if I could just give advice to parents, and that's just not to use your kids as a pawn in a divorce situation, because I've seen that time and time again, where the kids are sort of caught in the middle of it all and trying to sort of be the adult in this situation, and that does not serve children well in any way, shape, or form.

I mean, I often just would be frustrated wanting to tell parents like grow up and be the adult, you know, you've made your choices, but now you've, you know, you've got to be sensitive to your children's needs. So that's really important. But yeah, just having, you know, making sure that every kid has a relationship with a caring adult is huge.

Joey (10:14)

⁓ That is huge. Were there any trends that you've seen? I know you've listened to and seen research on this, I'm curious if there are any anecdotal stories or just trends you notice with the young people that you were serving who came from what we call broken families compared to the kids who came from healthier intact families.

Brandy (10:34)

I mean, the kids who came from intact families and families who, I mean, sometimes families can be intact, but then things are not good at home. but kids who came from, you know, really strong families, ⁓ where both mom and dad were really involved and helpful to the children and had good relationships with the kids.

Those are the kids who really excel. They don't struggle to build relationships with others. That attachment theory comes into play and they have the proper, they know how to attach properly to the proper people. I think kids who come from broken families are in large part in danger of seeking relationships that are not healthy for them. Whether that be that they are more at risk for abuse when they're younger or

even when they're older, know, seeking out relationships that are not healthy because they don't have not had that good experience with what a healthy relationship looks like. So, I mean, I think there's just all kinds of dangers, if you will, you know, for kids who come from broken families. And again, that's why it's really important for the adults in their lives, you know, to really be cognizant of that, you know, and do the right thing by the children as much as you possibly can.

Joey (11:49)

Yeah, I know I couldn't agree more and it often requires looking beyond your own pain, but without going further into all of that, and thank you for weighing in kind of from that role as like a principal. I'm curious, so you mentioned you were just months old when your parents split and then how old are you now just for the context for everyone. If you're okay.

Brandy (12:06)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 48, almost 50 inching towards 50.

Joey (12:10)

Nice. Okay. I don't, don't think I'm supposed to ask a woman how old she is, but we have to end the podcast. And then, ⁓ so obviously you didn't really learn. couldn't have learned about the divorce separation and divorce when you were younger, but do you remember maybe having conversations with your mom or even your dad as you got older and kind of understanding what was happening and what family life was like in a divorce situation?

Brandy (12:32)

So my mom, think I said this was really good to always be open to conversation around any questions I had, which was great. So from my earliest memories, I can remember having conversations with her. Now my biological, and I keep saying biological father because my mom later remarried and I have a fabulous stepfather that I don't even really consider my stepfather. And I've always just called him dad. So, but my biological father was in my life to the extent he could be. He had visitation. So,

You know, there would be conversations with my mom around that, you know, when I was going to go with my dad and, you know, what we were going to do and those sorts of things. I don't know how young I was when my mom explained, you know, his alcoholism and all of that. But I remember from a very young age, I have this really concrete memory of being on the playground at my elementary school. I could.

close my eyes and still be there. And looking at my friends who had intact families, and even though I at that point was in a really good situation with my mom having remarried, I still wondered what would it be like to have, you know, your mom and dad, your biological parents married. And I remember just looking at different friends and thinking about, you know, what I would see in their homes.

and what that might be like, know, almost fantasizing about it. But like I said, my mom was always really good to have open conversations with me if I had questions. And I'll tell you one thing she did that was so powerful. She went to visit a psychologist when they divorced to ask for advice on like, you know, what do I say to her? ⁓ My mother really, she would tell you if she were here, ⁓ she didn't really want me to be around my dad. ⁓ You know, she was fearful of what that might bring and what I might see and be exposed to.

But the psychologist gave her really good advice, or at least I think it was really good advice. And that was to never say anything negative about my dad, to let me discover anything that I might need to discover on my own. I mean, obviously in a safe way, you wouldn't want to put a child in an unsafe situation. And so I remember from a very early age, there would be situations where he would take me for the weekend and it wasn't anything bad. It wasn't a bad situation, but he was just very different.

You know, I would feel uncomfortable and not myself in whatever situation that we were in visiting friends or, know, or what have you. And, still my mom persisted, even when I would come home and I might have, you know, complaints, if you will, about whatever went on over the weekend. My mom never said anything negative about my dad. And she would continue to say, you have all the best parts of him. And she would point out, yeah, it's beautiful. She would point out, makes me emotional.

She would point out like things like I was a very studious child and she never really was all that studious, but my dad was. And so she would point out things like that and say, see, that's from your dad. You got all his best parts. And so, I mean, that was just a beautiful, no healing experience, I think. And I didn't even recognize, you know, at the time what was going on, but that was obviously, you know, really a positive piece that she employed.

Joey (15:37)

love that because as you know so often parents can fall into you know saying things like you're just like your father you're just like your mother and getting into those like spats which you know I've seen time and time again I'm in and out of my family and with the young people we work with and yeah so I think that's like a really beautiful tactic to actually call out the good while I really really like that and I hope we can if that's okay with you we will use that moving forward but ⁓ for sure yeah no okay so good I'm curious like with the visitation and again I love that

tactic to have your mom like without putting you in danger letting you kind of discover for yourself that makes so much sense to me yeah I'm curious what visitation was like for you to what from what you remember did it continue on as usual what was that like because as you know everyone listening has been through something like that so I'm curious what the experience like that was

Brandy (16:25)

So, my mom and stepfather had primary custody and my dad just had visitation. And when I was, until I was about six, I believe, he lived in my hometown. so visitation was very easy and he would just come and get me for the weekend. And now, of course, this was after he sobered up, you know, he, didn't allow him to take me, you know, when he was drinking. But so I think I was probably, I think I saw him off and on when I was very, very small.

But probably at my grandparents' his parents were just some of my favorite people. have really good memories of his parents. Even though his father was an alcoholic, and that of course contributed to his own alcoholism, my grandmother was just what I would say. I she was a saint. And so I loved being at their house. So I think I spent probably a lot of time at their house for visitation, which was great. My mom totally trusted my grandparents. I don't think at this point my grandfather must not have been drinking or she wouldn't have... ⁓

you know, allowed me to go. But my grandparents were wonderful and so we would go there a lot. So there were happy memories of visitation there. But then often we would be, you know, at his apartment and, know, with his friends and things like that. And I just never felt really all that comfortable, sadly. My dad was, I also have really vivid memories of him being really hypercritical of things. And so, you know, where my mom was always really positive about him, my dad would say things like,

your nails are filthy, why doesn't your mother clean your nails? And my nails were not filthy. My mother took very good care of me, you know. And so he was always a little more critical of me, of my mother. And so I think that also probably, you know, made things more uncomfortable. So that continued until I was about six and my grandparents passed away within just, I think it was probably a couple of months of each other. And so at that point, my dad moved away. And so then visitation became a little more infrequent. And I guess I would say,

And I certainly don't say this to be judgmental of my dad. I think I want to preface with just saying, he came from a broken family as well. And I think he did the best he knew how to do. He just never really found a lot of healing, unfortunately. But I would say he would often jump in and want to be kind of ⁓ a father when it was really convenient. And so he would want to come and maybe get me for two weeks to spend some time with him in the summer.

And then he would make big promises, you know, about, we're going to stay in touch or what have you, you know, and then, and then that would fall by the wayside. And that's really continued even today. I am still in touch with him, but he doesn't live anywhere near me. And he even today will make a big promise about wanting to like, you know, have regular phone calls or whatever. And then he just can't, you know, he just can't commit to it.

just think that's all from his own brokenness, you know, and I just don't hold that against him anymore. There's just been a lot of healing there, praise God.

Joey (19:19)

Yeah, I that's beautiful. I'd love to talk more about that. Well, thanks for going into the visitation stuff. I wanted to talk a little bit about this kind of pattern that you recognize at some point with, you know, okay, alcoholism runs in the family, brokenness runs in the family. Was that a big fear of yours? I'm sure we'll get into this further, but is that something you feared the alcoholism repeating the brokenness disorder?

Brandy (19:38)

Yeah. So I think a huge part of my brokenness from the wounding was this tendency to perfectionism. So I always was quite a bit of a rule follower anyway, but always seeing like performance equals love. And I think a lot of that came from the fact that my dad would come around for things like my dance recital because he wanted to tell all of his friends, that's my daughter on the stage.

I'm inside think I saw that so there was this perfectionism so I was always a rule follower but in high school I never took a sip of alcohol because I was terrified I mean just totally terrified that if I took even one step you know that I might also be an alcoholic so it played a huge part and maybe that was a good thing that I didn't drink in high school but but also I don't think staying away from alcohol because of that fear is healthy either.

Joey (20:31)

Fair enough. No, that totally makes sense. Yeah, no, and I think that's probably one of the biggest like felt pains and fears that our audience experiences is just like, I don't want to become like my parents or I don't want to like fall into the same vices or I don't want to, you know, just repeat the relationships that they had. And so definitely I'm excited to talk more about that when we get into relationships a little bit more. I am curious if there's anything else you would add about, yeah, just, guess life.

as a kid growing up in that environment. We've already covered it quite thoroughly, but I'm just curious if there's anything else that you would add.

Brandy (21:04)

just more, maybe add a little bit about my stepfather, you know, because that was also very healing to have a father figure. So he, stepped in when I was also very young. I don't have any recollection really of life before him and just never, I mean, I never felt like a stepdaughter ever, ever, and have two siblings from, you know, that marriage. And they never felt like step siblings to me. I mean, we've never.

referred to each other in that way. And so that was really healing too. And I think I've shared this with you just briefly before, but I think this is important to share because obviously the goal of the podcast is to help somebody out there who may be going through the same thing. So ⁓ had this great relationship with my stepfather and his father though was also funny enough an alcoholic. So there was a lot of dysfunction in his family as well.

course I didn't, you know, wasn't cognizant of that as a child, but later, I think I was probably around four, there was some abuse by my step grandfather. And I decided, I remember being very aware of what he was trying to do. My mom had always talked to me about, you know, dangers with, you know, with other people. Mainly, I think she was afraid of like who my father might take me around. And so I was very aware of, you know, of like, you've got to tell somebody.

Thank goodness. And ⁓ so I remember thinking when he went to, when that first happened that I needed to tell somebody. And I remember wanting so badly to tell my mother, but this is a product of divorce. My mother had already been divorced once. And because this was my step-grandfather, step-grandfather, I was afraid. I remember thinking this so vividly. I was afraid that if I told.

My mother would take my side. I had no question that she would believe me and would handle the situation the way that it needed to be handled. But I wasn't sure that my step father would believe me. And so I kept that quiet until I was an adult. And, and so because of that, then he was allowed to abuse other people, you know, because nobody, nobody knew, nobody put a stop to things. And so as an adult, those memories were repressed until I had my own children.

And I remember when those memories started to surface, I remember telling my husband, Dan, I'm not sure that I, like I woke up from a dream and I thought, was that a dream or was this real? But I knew in my soul, it was real. And so about that same time, some other abuse victims were coming forward and this was starting to surface and my mother knew about it, but she didn't know that I had been abused.

And so there's a, ⁓ I won't go into details about the story about how it all came together because it's really not relevant, but it's just the Holy Spirit, you know, planting all of that at the right time so that all of the stories, you know, came together at the right time and were able to be addressed and we were able to go through some family counseling and have a lot of healing around that. But again, I think when I think about my parents' divorce, I think a lot of people thought, one, I was so young that there would not be repercussions.

And two, I had this wonderful stepfather, you know, and no memory of life before him, without him. And so I think most people would have dismissed it and said, well, she's just a really resilient child. There's no, you know, no reason to worry about, you know, whatever the repercussions of the divorce would be for her. And here I was abused and there's a repercussion of the divorce, I'm afraid to tell. And so I think that's really important too for adults to remember that it doesn't matter.

you know what the story is there are always repercussions you that children have wounds from that divorce and so it's just important to remember that and be sensitive to that.

Joey (25:01)

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so openly. Just to maybe give people the context, so remind me how old were you when that happened and then how old were you when it came out?

Brandy (25:49)

So I was about four, think, I'm thinking and remembering it correctly, about four when it happened. And then, and I was really fortunate. It wasn't consistent. It happened one time and, you know, praise Jesus for that. But, but like I said, the abuse continued with other victims after that. And I was, let's see, let me think how long being that John was about our oldest son was about two. So I was probably 24.

You know, so like 20 years later when it came out, 20, yeah, 23, 24. Okay. Yeah. Never had one thought of it before. Yeah. That morning that I woke up from the dream and had the conversation with my husband.

Joey (26:31)

I know you were so young and it's so fascinating how the mind of like a little girl or you know, a little boy could reason to that level of like, don't want to share this with mom because I'm afraid that the divorce will happen again. You know, we'd go through that all again. Man, it just breaks your heart to think of that. And even as good of a job as your mom had done to like make sure, you know, she had open communication with you. So it's definitely, I think a wake up call.

to parents, to everyone that this is a serious thing that has repercussions that maybe are hidden that you can't really put your finger on.

Brandy (27:04)

And sometimes I think too, Joey, you know, because I was on the outside appeared to be a really resilient child, which really was because of this perfectionism. So I was a high performer in school, you know, my grades were always good. I made friends, you know, with other children easily. So there wouldn't have been those telltale signs that there would have been any distress. You know, most people would have just moved on to it. You know, they would have wouldn't have worried about me.

And so I think that's just, yeah, I mean, it just, yeah, a wake up call to adults who are involved with kids in any way, whether you're a mom and dad or, know, grandparents or aunt and uncle, you know, if you love children and they've been through any kind of trauma, yeah, it's important to have your eyes on them at all times and look for maybe even things that are not your telltale signs, you know, and have open conversations for sure.

Joey (27:55)

No, I love that. And I think that's one thing that I noticed in myself and my siblings, like we became really good at like hiding things and, know, sometimes out of self preservation protection, other times, just like you had mentioned not to like rock the boat and keep things as peaceful as they could be. ⁓ so I do think you need to, know, obviously have the good relationship to where if they want to talk to they will, but also maybe probe a little bit and ask questions that can kind of get to that. So I know we're, ⁓ I know we're talking decent amount about parents, but I think this is helpful.

overall, especially because we have people listening who like one day want to be parents or maybe they are new parents and they come from a broken family and they can, you know, perhaps apply some of this even if they themselves are growing like a really beautiful marriage and family and so because these principles apply I think across the board.

Brandy (28:40)

Absolutely, you know and I would just say too or if even if you're not in the place You know at this point to be married, you know, maybe that's still a goal in the future But you know if you have hidden things even that, know, like I said 23 24, you know, you can't really heal unless you bring things to the light and And so, you know, I can't imagine now, you know 24 years later if that was still hidden, you know There would have been a lot of missed opportunities for healing and I can't say

where I would be, know, where the other victims might be. You know, while it was hard to talk about that, it was important, you know, really important to talk about it and to bring it to the light. So I would just say, like you said, you know, sometimes children of divorce learn to hide things really well for whatever reason. But even if, you know, you are 24 years old, it's not too late to bring that out into the light and talk about it, you know, with somebody who loves you and cares about you and can help you heal.

Joey (29:37)

Love that. No, that's such a good principle of healing that, you like you said, bringing it into the light and then also, you know, don't be afraid to kind of have those difficult conversations or say the things that are uncomfortable. I heard someone say that, that like you're usually like one difficult conversation away from like some incredible healing and growth, one conversation away from, you know, leveling up to whatever that might look like in whatever area of life. And I think it's our unwillingness often to have those, to push through the discomfort and, you know, just be courageous in those situations that often.

keep us stuck and hold us back. So I love everything you said there. Thank you for going into that. I'm curious, you you mentioned perfectionism. You mentioned, yeah, just not wanting to rock the boat. I'm curious if there were any other ways in which kind of you were affected. And especially if you notice like, when did you have an awareness that there were these things in your life that you went through that came from a broken family, you went through all this dysfunction. There are other things that happened like you shared. Did you kind of come to this awareness you mentioned on the playground, but I'm curious if there was anything else.

Brandy (30:33)

I think, you know, just having those thoughts off and on, you know, as a child and then as a growing, you know, adolescent and then teen, just sort of longing for what would that be like. But, you know, as you grow and you get busy and you, you know, you get involved in different things, I think I was probably less aware or less concerned, maybe if you will. But I didn't recognize, you know, really what it was doing in my life. Like I didn't.

the perfectionism and this need to always be a peacemaker. I didn't really see that as a negative in any way when I was well, because it was praised, you know? It was always praised. And so I didn't see that as a result of trauma really until I was an adult and I had my first child. So really kind of about the same time that all of the other, you know, was coming to light, I was really starting – know, the Holy Spirit was really starting to

do some healing work, I think, in my soul by just slowly, bit by bit, bringing some of those things to light with me and just helping me see those things as woundedness so that you can heal from them. I would say it was becoming a mother. Wow. And then watching my husband be he's a fantastic dad. And here we've been married for, gosh, almost 27 years.

seeing like, ⁓ this is what, you know, a functioning intact family looks like and watching him be a father. I think that brought back a lot of the wound or brought up a lot of woundedness in me. And so yeah, it was in my adult years, you know, when I really started to see those things as woundedness. And I would say in my teen years too, ⁓ and then like early adult years dating, I didn't see this as a piece of my woundedness then, but I do now.

You know, this idea that I was always searching for male approval, you know, so my identity was always wrapped up in who I was dating, you know, how serious the relationship was. Um, I mean, I can look back and just see that as a trend, you know, from about age 15, maybe even younger on, know, yeah. Yeah.

Joey (32:49)

No, that makes so much sense. And I can relate on the opposite end of like seeking female approval. So yeah, I think that's a common struggle and thanks for sharing that. No, everything you're sharing just makes so much sense. I am curious if there were any emotional problems you struggled with or bad habits that you wanted to share in a little bit. We'll talk about relationships, but yeah, any emotional problems, bad habits.

Brandy (33:09)

The habit would be that, I think, jumping from relationship to relationship, you know, and just seeking approval in that regard and wrapping my identity, you know, in my relationships. That for sure became a really repetitive habit of mine. And that's probably, you know, that was probably the most destructive thing that I did, you know, as a result.

Joey (33:33)

No, that makes sense. I think it points to, think probably a lot of your mom's influence on you because one of the things that we have often shared on the show is that if you have a good relationship with one or both of your parents amidst these really rough situations of divorce and just high degrees of dysfunction in the family, there's a good chance that you're going to be able to cope pretty well with it. And so that's really beautiful. mean, your life could have looked very different. And so it's amazing that... ⁓

Brandy (33:58)

thought about that. Like what would life have looked like if she had not had the courage to walk away or even when she walked away if my stepfather had not come into the picture, you know, what would our life have looked like and it would have been vastly different, vastly different, know. So yeah.

Joey (34:16)

Yeah, no, and even just the ongoing like relationship and parenting that she provided you, it's just beautiful. And even on the step family, step parents side, that's such a mixed bag for a lot of people. A lot of people's experience of step parents isn't very good, if we're honest. And so it's really beautiful you have that. And not to, I don't mean to throw any step parents under the bus, there are some very good ones like you experienced, especially if you're listening right now. Thank you for being a good one.

But yeah, so that is so interesting. I guess if, is there any lessons or advice that you've learned when it comes to kind of navigating step family, step parents? I know you were so young, like you said, so it kind of felt like there wasn't a step family going on there. But I'm just curious if there's any lessons to someone listening right now that you'd want to pass along who's maybe dealing with a step mom, step dad, step sibling, step family situation.

Brandy (35:03)

I haven't really thought about that. I think it's just really important from the adult perspective to just work well together for the children's sake. I think honoring as much as you can what the children's desires are. I mean, I know when they're little, it's hard for them to know what's best for them. But I think being flexible with visitation and just avoiding as much bickering and fighting as possible from the adult perspective. For a kiddo,

I think, know, as much as possible, you know, if you can look for the good, and I think that's true in a lot of situations, negative situations, you know, if we look for the good, often we can find it, you know, even from really dark places, you know, maybe just being open to finding some good, even if the relationship with your step family is difficult, you know, just trying as much as possible. But then I also think.

If it's an unhealthy relationship, you know, when you're old enough, you know, you have to set some boundaries. I think that's really important. You know, you're not made to be a doormat either, you know, so.

Joey (36:12)

Yeah, that's good. No. And I'm going to put it on the spot with that, that's great advice of like setting the boundaries, especially once you have like more independence and obviously always set boundaries. But when you're younger, it can be hard. But once you have that independence, I totally agree. And in some cases that means, you know, I never a huge proponent of this because I think there's a lot of healing and growth and forgiveness that can happen. But if you, you know, if it's so toxic and you need to cut them out of your life, maybe that's the case. But in most situations, I think there's the

possibility of working towards rebuilding and, you know, at least slowly step by step growing a better relationship. But I love that advice about the boundaries. And then also you made me think of just this whole principle of in life, in every relationship, like whatever we praise and other people will almost always get repeated. And so I think there's something really good and beautiful about that of like praising the good things that we see, even if there's like a lot of bad, like praising the good and then hopefully that, you know, they'll become more and more like that good person that you're making them out to be in the book.

how to win friends and influence people. Dale Carnegie talks about that, about how it's really one of the powerful tactics of like influence is giving people a reputation to live up to. And so if you, you know, kind of pull out those good qualities, those virtues, and you, know, and without being dishonest, you kind of paint this portrait of like, that's your true identity, that's who you are, then typically, especially if you're in a position of influence,

that will motivate them more to stay true to that, to be consistent with that image that's being portrayed of them. So I think that those are really beautiful lessons and thanks for talking about your stuff, family. Before we move on, anything you'd add?

Brandy (37:38)

No, I would just say you're, I mean, you're so spot on about the words we speak over people. Gosh, I often would talk to my teachers, you know, about that. I mean, and I think that's true if you have any influence on anybody, you know, whether it be a child or an adult, you know, speaking, like you said, honest words of affirmation, not the corny stuff that's, you know, that's not true, but really speaking the words of affirmation and calling them to be their best self.

is very, very powerful.

Joey (38:10)

I love that. I was having that conversation with my dad recently. It was a text exchange and we were talking a little bit about the past and thought going too into it. That was like kind of a situation like we're describing where I was able to kind of affirm him in some of the things that he did right. And obviously there was a lot of brokenness and things that didn't go right. But I think there's something good about that being able to kind of pull that out. And again, not shying away from maybe having the difficult conversations because we did talk about that too. But, ⁓ and we have had conversations like that, but I think there is a lot of beauty to pull out the good. So super good. Thank you for.

going into all that and yeah, that book, if anyone's interested, How to Win Friends and Influence, people will teach you a lot about it. And one of the things I think he says in that book too, just to your point, is when you give compliments, when you affirm people, the more specific, the better. General compliments don't typically land super well with people and you always want them to be sincere. You never want to flatter. And so I think those are like great principles as well to whether you're dealing with a stepfather, stepmother, you know, or...

Anyone in your life, think those are good principles across the board. I want to talk a little bit more about relationships. So you mentioned kind of this, I don't know if we'd call it a relationship addiction. Like you were jumping kind of, you know, compulsion, whatever from relationship to relationship. Was there anything else like in your relationships in which ways in which you struggled or yeah, just anything you eventually had to outgrow, whether it's in your teen years or as a young adult.

Brandy (39:27)

Maybe I would just talk more about like wrapping your identity in that. Sure. ⁓ because, that was something, gosh, I would say probably wasn't all that long ago. mean, really relatively short time period ago in my adult years, you know, when I really recognized what that was, you know, and, and I know that our whole audience is not necessarily Christian or Catholic, but I am. And so my identity, you know, understanding that my identity comes from Christ.

and who I am in Christ and not from who I'm dating or, you know, or even gosh, wrapping my identity in what I do or who I'm married to or, who my children become. Because that can really become a nasty pattern. ⁓ And it really did for me because once I was married and secure in my marriage, well, then it was, you know, like, my identity is in my job or, you know, identity in my children and how well they perform. And so I think that.

was tough, know, because it does become sort of a habit and it becomes, you know, just a repeatable thing that you just sort of, you once you leave it behind in one thing, you know, you just go searching for it somewhere else, you know, and so I think that's really important, you know, just you got to know who you are independent of all of those things, you know, who are you at your most authentic self and that's hard. I mean, that's a really hard question to answer, but you kind of have to get outside of all the noise, I think, to figure that out.

So for me, that was a very spiritual experience, you know, might not be for somebody else, but for me, it definitely meant, you know, really growing in my relationship with Christ to figure out who am I.

Joey (41:05)

Beautiful. Okay. And it was through getting to know God better building that relationship that you got to know who you were.

Brandy (41:12)

Yeah, for sure. Lots of prayer, lots of scripture. And I think too, Joey, because of, you know, that there's a lot of deep father wounds there for me. I think that's another reason why growing in my faith, you know, the Holy Spirit was so gracious to take that really slow with me and to allow me to develop in my relationship, my identity to God as my father in a really slow, easy pace.

Because that's hard. mean, when you don't, even though I had this great relationship with my stepfather, still do, and he's fabulous, there's still a wound there, a father wound there that, you know, your biological father failed you in so many ways. And so how do you relate to God as a father? Again, that took, you know, a lot of years in my adulthood to figure that out.

Joey (42:05)

sure and I think a lot of people listening right now feel the same and was there, like you said it was gradual but I'm trying to understand was there anything that maybe you haven't mentioned so far that was really pivotal to kind of overcoming maybe any barriers or resistance to that relationship with God as a father because it is a really hard thing. I definitely struggled with that myself and still do to some extent but haven't made a lot of progress like you as well. So yeah, I'm curious if there's any like

pivotal moment or anything in particular that helped you make that shift. For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault, guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face.

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Brandy (43:39)

I think probably a lot of the shift happened when I was able to forgive my dad for, you know, his shortcomings. And that came about just in lots of prayer, scripture. I have a fantastic spiritual director. I've had fantastic priests come into my life, you know, that I've been able to counsel with. I've had some counseling, probably not as much as I could benefit from, but some. And

So my mother actually told me this story and it was actually, her mother was very staunch Irish Catholic and my mom's father died when she was six. So my grandmother raised eight children by herself. So she had to be tough, know, had to be tough. And my mom grew up kind of feeling like her mother, my grandmother was a little bit blind emotionally. So she had a counselor one time say, if your mother was blind, would you still love her? And my mother said, well, of course.

And she said, well, she is, she's a little bit emotionally blind, you know, to your knees. And so that was really healing for my mother. And she shared, happened to share that story with me. And I think that was really important to being able to forgive my father because I just recognized that, you know, he's coming from lots of woundedness as well. I have not, I could be wrong. I don't want to judge his relationship with Christ in any way, but I don't think he's church going or, I don't think he has that spiritual component so much.

lean on like I did. So don't think there's been a lot of counseling and things like that. So I don't know how much healing he's done. So I would just say, you know, I just don't hold him accountable for that anymore. I did, but I don't because I think he did the best he could do, you know, with what he knew, what he had known his whole life. ⁓ And I've watched him jump from relationship to relationship. And so I just think, you know, there's just a lot missing for him. And so I think

My ability to relate to God as Father really changed when I was able to forgive my own Father, you know, for the woundedness that He caused.

Joey (45:38)

That's really good and yeah, no, I could definitely see how that would help so much. I'm curious, was there a particular moment, like what was that process of forgiveness like for you in particular if we can get a little bit more granular? Like, you know, when did you become aware that this would be a good idea? Were there certain steps you took? Was it something that was kind of like you made this declarative statement of like, I forgive you and then you've, I don't know. Yeah, but talk me through all that.

Brandy (46:00)

So I think the process really started again, going back to when I became a mother, like I've talked about, you know, with and watching my husband be this incredible father. So somewhere in there, I began to have a desire, you know, to forgive him. And I would just say this about forgiveness, because I know that's hard. That's hard when somebody has caused you a lot of pain. Forgiveness, though, is really, I mean, while obviously it's helpful to the other person, I feel like forgiveness is so good for the person that's

holding all the pain because it allows you to release all of that, you know, and let go of it. And so I would just say, you know, like, if you don't do it for the other person's sake, you know, work through that process for your own sake. But my process really started when I became a mother. And then just slowly after that, yeah, there were, ⁓ I've actually written him. I didn't feel like I could say it to his face for whatever reason that was hard. So I've actually written him and told him, I forgive you for everything.

And so yes, there were declarative statements like that. And then also just after that, I would just say forgiveness is really an ongoing process, especially when the wounds are really, really deep. you know, those wounds rear their ugly head every once in a while. And you just have to be willing to say at that point, okay, I'm feeling this way. You know, if you are spiritual, taking that to the Lord.

and letting him help you work through that, sharing it all with him because he's ultimately the healer. And then just working through that process maybe again, and it can be really painful, but just reminding yourself, okay, ⁓ I have forgiven him once. Maybe there's some ongoing pain. Maybe there's some things that I still need to forgive and just continuing to work through that process. So I think it's important to view it not from a one and done kind of thing, because it's...

It's really not that at all. And it really is an ongoing process. And there have been memories then, you know, that would come up and cause some pain again. And so then I just have to stop and, kind of process through those things. ⁓ but yeah.

Joey (48:03)

Okay, yeah, no, couldn't agree more with that's been my experience too with forgiveness. It's certainly like a messy process. think there's, I've talked on the show about some different advice from great wise mentors. And yeah, I think like you said, the definition I've kind of worked with of forgiveness is like, it's this ongoing decision to release someone of a debt that they, feel they owe you because of a wrong they committed against you. And kind of in that kind of rough definition is like ongoing, like you said, it's not one and done decision, meaning it's not a feeling.

We can get confused about it thinking that one day when I feel it, I'll forgive them. Not that you need to force forgiveness, but I think it's certainly more of a decision than it is an emotion. Though there is, like you said, a lot of freedom that can come from it, but that's a byproduct. not what comes first. then, yeah, and then just like when it comes to the justice component of it, I think often people are worried about letting people off the hook or, yeah, I don't know, kind of making perhaps maybe that forgiveness is allowing them to like get away from, get away with it and not...

you know, maybe be corrected or something like that, which definitely is a longer conversation. But I think there is a lot of beauty, especially if there's no harm being done further that needs to be stopped. Cause in that situation would say, yeah, no, there certainly should be that sort of justice. But yeah, think there's something really good and beautiful about looking at forgiveness and mercy, which is it's rooted in as like going beyond justice. We're surpassing justice. going beyond it. We're not like neglecting it because we have the right to maybe hurt this person back. We have the right to enforce, you know, whatever justice is due, but

But going beyond it is certainly being the better person being, you know, it requires so much strength and virtue. It's not a weakness. It's not something that's like, you know, I'm gonna let you off the hook. It's no, I'm using all the strength within me to not, you know, seek revenge.

Brandy (49:46)

And I have to say not that I want my dad to suffer. I don't. think, I mean, that's the very definition of love, know, willing the good of the other. definitely, I mean, I want him to heal. I want him to feel released from all of that for sure. But as far as justice goes and, you know, thinking about that, I can only imagine his pain, honestly, because he's missed out on

You know, watching my family grow, getting to know my family, getting to know my kids, you know, those are his grandkids and he doesn't know them. And so as far as justice goes, I am sure that he has suffered, you know, because of his choices. I have no doubt that he has. And I hope that, you know, that he can let that go and feel that release and not continue to suffer.

Joey (50:35)

If you know someone whose parents are separated or divorced, or maybe they're in the middle of process right now, you probably want to help, but you're not quite sure what to do or say in order to help them. And if so, you're not alone. It's a really common struggle. That's why we created our free guide, 10 tips to help someone whose parents are separating or divorcing. It offers really practical tactical things that you can do or say to help them and especially to help them feel less alone. The top things to avoid saying or doing that might cause harm and then what they need the most from you.

during this time, but most of all, the guide helps you feel competent and confident in offering help. And so get the free guide at restoredministry.com slash 10 tips, restoredministry.com slash 10 tips, either the number or the letters, or just click on the link in the show notes. Yeah, no, that's beautiful. And that's so merciful of you too, because like we were saying, I guess another definition of forgiveness could be kind of giving up our right to some form of revenge or some form of like getting that person back when they hurt us.

Yeah, I mean, we just naturally as humans want that. So I think that's really good. And it's really fascinating, like, obviously, you know, speaking to especially our Catholic audience, we would say that, you know, we do believe that in the end, after, in, you know, in the afterlife and eternity, after the world ends, like there will be an accounting for all the good and the bad. So justice will be served. Should it be served on earth? Yes, yes, absolutely. Justice should be served on earth. But we know especially that that's going to happen in the end. That's what we believe as Catholics. And so I think that often will, it's perhaps a little bit easier to

know, give forgiveness in that situation, like let go of like, okay, I'm gonna let go of this revenge I met Juan or this vindictive feeling or emotion. And then the point you made, which is also so true that so often the dysfunction, the bad decisions, the bad habits are punishments in themselves. The misery that they lead to like truly is horrible and a form of, I guess we could say a form of justice.

Brandy (52:21)

Yeah, because, you know, forgiveness can be there, you know, but we're never free from the consequences of our decisions. I mean, the consequences are there. I mean, so, you know, good or bad.

Joey (52:32)

Right. Yeah, there are certainly punishments in themselves in some ways, but it's so good. know with the little time we have left, I'm curious, you shared a lot so far, but I'm curious if you would add anything additional when it came to healing. Like what else did you do? What else was really like helpful when it came to bringing healing and restoration? I'm holding this into your life.

Brandy (52:50)

So again, the Holy Spirit's timing is amazing. A couple years back, we were just going through some other hard things in our family and had a very wise, well, two very wise priests who visited with Dan and I and really spoke into our lives and gave us some really good tools. And they thought this one particular priest is still our priest. He thought he was giving me this tool.

to me through the current situation, you know, but he had no idea how much it would help in healing in this situation. And that was the Restore the Glory podcast with, you know, Dr. Bob and Jay Kim. And from that, I found the Abiding Together podcast. So I'm a little bit of a podcast junkie. that's how I found your podcast initially. So, but I found a lot of healing through both of those podcasts and then a lot of what

Dr. Bob Schuetz has written about healing. so understanding the anatomy of a wound was huge for me. And that allowed me to go deeper than I'd really ever gone before. So where there was a lot of healing before, just through my spiritual life and my walk with Christ, this allowed me to understand a little bit more about the psychological side of things, but yet also bringing in the spiritual component with it. And that was

incredibly healing for me and has been healing for my husband too. He also comes from a broken family. And so I think he's found a lot of healing. So through what Dr. Bob shoots and Jake Kim have done. so yeah, between those two podcasts and then even just listening to yours, Joey, mean, just to hear it's so healing to hear people tell their story and to know you're not alone. That's, that's huge.

Joey (54:37)

I'm really happy that we've been able to help you, but no, I couldn't recommend this podcast more. haven't listened to Tunda Binding Together, but I've heard amazing things about it. And Sister Miriam has been on the show. We'll link to that podcast. Great show. Dr. Bob's been on multiple times. We did talk about the anatomy of the wound on the show. And so we'll link to that as well. And then yeah, I was ⁓ on their podcast. So we'll link to that if anyone's interested as well, because that was a really enjoyable conversation with them. But that makes so much sense. ⁓ You mentioned therapy. I just want to touch on that.

briefly. Yeah, how was that helpful and what type of therapy did you go through? Curious about all that.

Brandy (55:09)

I mine must have just been cognitive behavioral therapy. You know, when the divorce happened, my mom sought out help from a psychologist and used a lot of the things that she gained from that with me, which was wonderful. So sort of a little bit of indirect therapy, I guess, if you will. And then when the abuse came out, my parents immediately put the whole family in counseling and that was also very healing.

for that process. So then since then I have done some therapy on my own. My husband and have done some therapy together and he's done some on his own. We live in a really small town. There aren't a lot of resources around here. My preference would probably just because I am Catholic to always find a Catholic counselor. Mainly just I want somebody who, you know, their belief system aligns with my belief system and the idea of bringing the spiritual component into the psychological

realm like we've talked about with Dr. Rob Schutze and Jay Kim. That's so powerful. I mean, to have the two come together. I've just never experienced healing like that. As an adult, went in search of a counselor who would incorporate the spiritual side and have… I didn't find a Catholic counselor here, but a Christian counselor and she was good. Probably didn't go as far as I would have liked for her to go. I would love to do like…

EMDR and like, you know, some of these other things that are, that are more intense, but that's, that's what I've had experience with here, you know, locally. And it's been good.

Joey (56:39)

Good, no, I'm happy. Was there anything else in terms of people in your life who helped you heal or tools or tactics, content, anything like that before we move on?

Brandy (56:48)

Yeah, I mean, I've just, the Lord has been so gracious to give me really beautiful women in my life. ⁓ that I've been able, you know, of course, my mom, talked about my mom and being able to have open conversations with her, my grandmother, her mother, while she was alive, she's no longer living, but ⁓ she had a huge impact on my life. And, and, and then I have, my mom was the youngest of eight. So I have a number of aunts and uncles and

those relationships have also been really healing. So I've been really fortunate to have really strong adults in that regard. And then I've had some beautiful women step into my life who were like my mentors at work. As I came up through the education pipeline, who have now become one in particular, she's like a second mom to me, know, so to have that to lean on and then have had some beautiful friendships with women who have, you know, been through some similar trauma. And so just

It's just really healing to have people that can speak into your life in a positive way and who've maybe been through some of the same things. I would assume it's the same for men. need those people who you can relate to and they can relate to you as well.

Joey (57:56)

No, no, we could do it on our own. don't need any help. No, no, absolutely. Yeah. It's so interesting to see the trend and all these, you know, dozens and dozens of interviews we've done. It's often like the same answer. It's really cool. Like love is healing. People are healing. And I wanted to highlight a little bit more. You already touched on this and we can go as deep as you want with it, but just like how healing your marriage has been, you know, just your relationship with Dan, no marriages without.

⁓ struggle, I know that personally, but there's so much good and beauty that can come from it. know for me, like, yeah, marriage has been hard in some ways, but it's certainly made me a better man. And, you know, I'm really grateful for my wife. I'm grateful for the marriage that we have. And so, yeah, I'm curious if you'd talk a little bit about that. You mentioned how just seeing him as a father was really helpful in healing, but yeah, what else would you mention?

Brandy (58:40)

It's so funny because as much as my mom was so good to have deep conversations with me about whatever, she's not really like physically affectionate. And so I didn't grow up a hugger and then Dan, when I met Dan, he and his whole family are very like physically affectionate. So, you know, it's been funny to kind of morph into this, this person who loves, you know, hugs, long hugs and that sort of thing. And our kids are like that too. They love physical affection. So.

I mean, even that, you know, has been really healing, I think, for me. then also just, yes, and you're right, no marriage is without struggle. I mean, it is a saint maker, to be sure. But I think because, so I know data would say that our statistics would say that Dan and I are like probably doomed because we both come from, you know, broken families.

think it probably made us also both really resilient in marriage because we were both really just not willing to give up. So in the hard times and we've had our fair share of really hard times, just like everybody else, you know, we just, we just continually said to each other, like, it's not an option. So we need to go get help or, know, whatever we need to do, you know, to make this work, to get over this hurdle.

I will say though, I think because we both come from broken families, we were not good communicators at all. I think we were afraid to have conflict, which I think is probably normal given both of our situations because conflict, think to both of us signaled, uh-oh, there's a problem and maybe there's a divorce looming. And because we weren't willing to go there, we just weren't willing to have conflict, know? And that was not healthy at all. So, I mean, I would say as your audience, you know,

as they are coming maybe from broken families and then moving into their own marriages from the very beginning, just know conflict is okay. It's actually good, you know, ⁓ and find a good counselor or a good minister, you know, somebody, a good mentor couple, somebody who can help you see conflict for the good and learn how to actually have conflict in a positive way because we did not have those skills at all. I mean, I would say here we are.

lot of years into marriage and we're still learning that. It's still really hard for us. We both really shy away from it. I think it's just because we're a product of marriages where conflict was really unhealthy and not resolved well. But marriage has been healing for sure.

Joey (1:01:19)

Beautiful, yeah, no, I get that about like the whole fear of like conflict leads to permanent separation. it's like, better avoid that, but you can avoid the permanent separation and still dive into the conflict is the lesson that I'm hearing from you. Was there like one thing that helped you push into that a little bit more and just be willing to have that conflict? Like one skill lesson resource, something like that, if anyone's wondering.

Brandy (1:01:37)

Dan and I went through a marriage retreat, if you will. was an ongoing, was retrovise actually what it's called. We did that maybe seven or eight years ago. That was really good for us, sort of taught us how to have conversations where there was maybe some conflict and have those in a productive way. also, I know you just interviewed JP DeGance. I also work through our parish with Communio. And so we've done a marriage retreat.

through our parish's relationship with Communio that was excellent. And they actually sent every couple away with like these little cards that like gave an actual like cadence to the conversation where there's conflict and like gave really helpful tools. So that was really beneficial. ⁓ And I would just say like it's never ending. You need to keep learning. I think there's never gonna, if there's ever a day where Dan and I like decide to

learning about each other or how to have conversations with each other. We're probably in dangerous territory. know, marriage retreats, we've had, had, I think I mentioned this, but two fabulous priests who really spoke into our marriage beautifully. One still does. He's still here. Yeah, all of that has been really helpful. And then some counseling that we did together was really helpful. And then we made it a point, we didn't do this when our kids were younger. I will tell on us, we were not good about date night, but

And I think that was not, you people would tell us, Oh, you need to be intentional about date night. just get, we have four kids, we were busy. Yeah. Um, but we have made it a point. mean, every Saturday night is date night for us. And, um, our kids know that and almost nothing comes in front of that. You know, it's really rare that we give that up and that just gives us, and we don't do anything fancy. It's usually just dinner out somewhere and it's not even expensive, you know, but it's just time alone.

to speak to each other and we need to talk about sometimes it's not anything really important and sometimes it is things that are really important.

Joey (1:03:36)

No, so good. And I love how like the date thing doesn't need to be complicated. That's a really good lesson there too. But one of the things just I want to convey too is all of these like problems that occur within marriages, there are solutions for, and it's not that you aren't capable, to anyone listening, it's not that you're not capable of handling conflict well. It's that you don't know how to handle conflict well. It's a skill deficiency. It's a virtue deficiency. And so you need to learn that skill just like any other skill and then practice it.

And with time, even though there's a lot of emotion involved in these things, so it might be harder, you can actually get better at it and perhaps even master it. And so I think that that's a really powerful lesson because I think so often we think in like the black and white and binary, like either have that ability or you don't, but it's like, no, it's actually just a continuum. It's like, how well do you handle conflict?

Maybe not very well at all. And that's okay. That's where you're at, but you can learn to get better at handling conflict, but it's never like a switch on and off of like you handle conflict well, or you don't handle conflict or you don't know how to, or you do know how to, it's, it's truly a continuum.

Brandy (1:04:37)

Yeah, you said it perfectly.

Joey (1:04:39)

Awesome. I, um, so I could talk to you a lot more. One thing I was just going to mention to anyone wondering what the statistic is, it's 189 % according to one study, 189 % more likely to get divorced. If you come from a divorce family, you marry someone who is also from a divorce family. you're breaking stats or I love it. And that was the least one city that found it. And, uh, no, it's so beautiful to see people who are just flying in the face of that. So thank you. I know we've been talking for a while now. I just want to close off and say,

You know, if you, if you could talk to your parents and have kind of an honest conversation with them to whatever degree you're comfortable, what would you say? What would you want them to know?

Brandy (1:05:15)

mother, I would just say thank you. Yeah, I mean, she, I'll get emotional talking about it. ⁓ I just see her as really brave, really brave. And she always put me first. And I'm just really grateful for that. To my dad, I would just say, I hope that you've, you know, you find peace and that you understand that there's nothing, I don't hold anything against you.

Joey (1:05:45)

Beautiful. Thank you so much for just sharing so vulnerably and for being an example of, you know, coming from a messy, broken situation and being able to build like a beautiful life and just become like a virtuous person. I look up to you in so many ways and I really appreciate you coming on the show. So gosh, I'm sure we could talk more. But I just wanted to say thank you and I want to leave you with the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you give to the younger you out there listening right now?

Brandy (1:06:13)

You're not alone. you know, you're not there are other people struggling with all the same questions you have and you can make it. You're not doomed. And I think I would just say to, you know, open up, talk to people who love you, share things that you need to share. Don't hold it in. You don't have to be perfect all the time. You know, perfectionism and performance is not love. And

you know, that there's healing on the other side.

Joey (1:06:47)

That wraps up this episode. By the way, if you want to share your story with us like Brandy did, we'd love to hear it. And if you want, we can even post your story as an anonymous blog article on our website. You can go to restoredministry.com slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes to share your story. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. really appreciate that feedback. And that also helps people find.

In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Restored 3/24/25 Restored 3/24/25

Should I Just Get Over It?

2 minute read.

This story was written by Anonymous at 18 years old. Her parents separated at 15. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

I guess family life as I knew it kinda fell apart. My dad found other interests and entertainment outside of the family (late nights out, other women, fancy dinners, etc.) and kept it a secret until it wasn't anymore. I don't think I knew what to make of it 100%.

HOW THE SEPARATION MADE HER FEEL

I really didn't know what to make of it...I still kinda don't some days. I think it’s boggled my mind. I haven't been bitter or angry (like holding a grudge, seeking vengeance, wishing ill), at least at my dad. But I’m more frustrated with myself. Discouraged that I don't "fit the norm" of other traditional, large, Catholic conservative families. I had always thought I was secure in that, but it was merely a facade my dad wore.

HOW THE SEPARATION IMPACTED HER

My dad's actions have had positive and negative impacts on me. I have become a much more compassionate and less judgemental person. I have learned lessons that I don't think I could have without going through this. However, I have some struggles that seem directly related to this: a bad relationship with food/emotional eating, self-anger, and body image obsession. Sometimes I tell myself, "Who doesn't go through these things, especially at 18?! I should just get over it all already." It is a lonely place to be sometimes.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

It is understandable to be confused. You might feel relief, then guilt, then nostolgia for what was, even if that wasn't healthy. I know I have. It may seem impossible, but through pursuing a relationship with God, there is hope for you to get better — better than before, even. Don't stop dreaming for yourself and work to achieve it. You are worth it.

Share Your Story

Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored? If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing.

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

Restored 2/13/25 Restored 2/13/25

#142: How to Break the Cycle of Your Broken Family

Has your parents’ divorce or broken family brought pain into your life? Do you fear repeating the cycle of dysfunction or divorce?

Has your parents’ divorce or broken family brought pain into your life? Do you fear repeating the cycle of dysfunction or divorce?

You’re not alone—millions face these often unspoken struggles: hidden wounds, emotional problems, broken relationships, and destructive habits. Thankfully, you’re not destined to repeat your family’s dysfunction.

In this episode, you’ll hear a breakout talk from the SEEK25 conference where you’ll discover the two keys to breaking that cycle and learn actionable tips to build healthy relationships.

About the Speaker:

Endorsed by Jason Evert and Dr. Bob Schuchts, Joey Pontarelli has spoken across the U.S. and internationally.

He is the author of the book “It’s Not Your Fault” and hosts the podcast, “Restored: Helping Children of Divorce,” which has helped thousands of young people.

He has been a guest on EWTN’s TV and radio shows, Dr. Bob Schuchts’s “Restore the Glory” podcast, Jason Evert’s “Lust is Boring” podcast, and Relevant Radio’s “The Drew Mariani Show.”

Joey is married to Brigid, and they love life with their two kids, Lucy and John Paul.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: [00:00:00] If you come from a divorced family, you're 103 percent more likely to get divorced than someone who comes from an intact family. But if you were to marry someone who also comes from a divorced family, that number goes up to 189%, almost 3x. And if you're like me, hearing all this can be a bit discouraging.

If you're like me, it can leave you feeling like the odds are against you. To the point where so many of us, we give up on love. We give up on marriage and we just settle for the counterfeit. Or if we do try to build love, we end up building unhealthy relationships, weak marriages, and broken families. And the cycle that we badly want to break gets repeated in our own lives.

And so what's the solution? I would propose to break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, two things are needed. One, we need to heal our brokenness. And two, we need to build virtue. Sounds simple, not as easy to do,~ but if we do that, then as healthy, virtuous people, we can go on and build healthy relationships, strong marriages, and holy families.

Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panerelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help [00:01:00] you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. Question for you. Has your parents divorce or your broken family brought pain into your life?

Do you fear repeating that cycle of dysfunction and divorce? If so, you're not alone. There's millions of us who face these often unspoken struggles, hidden wounds, emotional problems, broken relationships, and destructive habits. Thankfully, you're not destined to repeat your family's dysfunction. In this episode, you'll hear a breakout talk that I gave at the SEEK25 conference, where you'll discover the two keys to breaking that cycle and learn actionable tips to build healthy relationships.

Now, if you're not familiar with the SEEK conference, it's a conference of 20, 000 people, mostly young people, mostly college students. And I had a Breakout session at that conference in a room of 2000. Now they actually had to cut off the line and not let more people into the room since so many people wanted to be there because of how relevant this topic is.

And we got a lot of solid feedback from the audience who with multiple people saying they took five pages of notes [00:02:00] that it was their favorite talk of the day or even the entire conference. And it was such an honor to build and deliver this talk for the college students at the conference. And so. If you're from a broken family, where things are just really dysfunctional, or maybe your parents are divorced or separated, this episode, this talk, is for you.

Now, I do mention God and faith a little bit in the talk, because the audience was primarily a Catholic Christian audience of college students. Now, if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this podcast for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast, so wherever you're at, I'm really glad you're here.

If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is just this. Listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode. With that, here's the talk.

So good to be with you guys. Let's start with the prayer in the Father and of the Son of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Dear Jesus, I ask you to be here with us. Lord, speak through me so that what I say may be helpful. Give us all the graces we need to become saints, brokenness and build virtue so we can build the [00:03:00] healthy, beautiful relationships that you want us to build in our lives.

And we ask all this through your mother as we pray, Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, for through thy womb, Jesus, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and of our death, Amen. I send you humble and great, blessed pure Giorgio, and holy family, in the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

When my friend Mary was just a little girl, she would watch her parents fight all the time. Their marriage was a mess and they needed help, but they never got the help that they needed, and so the dysfunction just continued on for years. Fast forward to when Mary was in high school, her mom decided to divorce her dad.

And what honestly seemed like a solution to a really bad and messy situation just made things worse for Mary. It was just one trauma on top of another. Now up to that point, she didn't really act out. She just held her pain inside. But that all changed when she went to [00:04:00] college. She got into the party scene, she started drinking heavily.

That led to dating the wrong guy. She ended up marrying one of those guys who was a drug addict and alcoholic. And as you'd imagine, their marriage was a mess as well. That only led to more problems and more trauma. And eventually, she divorced her husband, repeating that cycle. And once the dust settled, she fell into a deep depression and started dealing with a lot of emotional problems.

Whenever I think of Mary, whenever I tell her story, I can't help but ask, could that have been avoided? Or was she somehow doomed to repeat? that cycle of dysfunction in her own life. Like Mary, I also come from a broken family. I'll never forget the day when my mom shared the news that dad would no longer be living with us.

In fact, they were getting divorced. As a 10 year old boy, I didn't know what to do with that news. I couldn't cope with it. And so I remember just hiding in the closet and crying. And sitting in the closet, I couldn't have put it in towards then, but it felt abandoned. I felt unwanted. I felt like I just wasn't good enough.

And in the months and years that followed, I dealt with all sorts of pain and problems, like emotional problems, anxiety, depression, loneliness, a lot of anger for me as a boy. [00:05:00] I dealt with bad habits. One of my buddies at the time introduced me to pornography, and so that became my drug of choice, my way of numbing the pain that I felt.

But the biggest area of my life in which I struggled was in my relationships. I remember after my parents split, swearing that I would never get married. Because if this is where love and marriage leads, why in the world would I want to go down that route? And so I was really afraid of love relationships.

And when it came my time to, you know, start dating and building love, I felt super lost. I felt really incompetent at it. But it wasn't really until high school when this whole fear of repeating the cycle. hit me in the face. I just started liking this great girl, like, good Catholic girl who I could see myself marrying one day.

But I was terrified that my relationship with this great girl would one day end the way that my parents marriage had. And so the question on my mind was, how do I avoid that? How do I not go down that path? But what I saw around me wasn't very encouraging. I knew well at least five families that were falling [00:06:00] apart going through a divorce.

Eventually, the studies I saw weren't much more helpful. One study found that if you come from a divorced family, you're 103 percent more likely to get divorced than someone who comes from an intact family. But if you were to marry someone who also comes from a divorced family, that number goes up to 189 percent according to this one study.

Almost 3x. And if you're like me, hearing all this can be a bit discouraging. If you're like me It can leave you feeling like the odds are against you. To the point where so many of us, we give up on love, we give up on marriage, and we just settle for the counterfeit. Or if we do try to build love, we end up building unhealthy relationships, weak marriages, and broken families.

And the cycle that we badly want to break gets repeated in our own lives. And so what's the solution? I would propose to break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, two things are needed. One, we need to heal our brokenness. And two, we need to build virtue. It sounds simple, not as easy to do, but if we do that, [00:07:00] then as healthy, virtuous people.

We can go on and build healthy relationships, strong marriages, and holy families. And you guys, this is so doable. I've seen it. I've seen really beautiful couples where one or both of the spouses come from broken families, and they're working hard with God's grace to build really beautiful marriages and families.

And that's what I'm working on in my life as well. Thankfully what you heard of my story wasn't the end of it. I was able to, you know, just work through a lot of healing and building virtue to the point where I no longer struggle with bigger, constant emotional problems. I was able to get porn outta my life and start living a pure life with the help of Jason Everett.

And when it came to my relationships, it definitely didn't happen overnight, but I was able to work through a lot of the fears and struggles and insecurities to the point where I was able to pursue my wife. We were able to get married, start a family. I want to introduce you guys to my family. That's Bridget, my wife.

Uh, that's Lucy, our daughter. She's three. And that's John Paul, who's, uh, six months old. He's, he's here right now. Bridget and John Paul are actually here right now. So we've been married. Thank you. [00:08:00] Thank you. We've been married almost seven years now. And I'll be honest with you guys. Marish has been hard for me, but it's definitely been good for me and has made me a better man.

And I absolutely love being a dad. Like I freaking love being a dad. It's so good. I want to show you more pictures of the kids. So this is Lucy at a local farm nearby. They have this thing called farm school. So she literally goes to farm school. It's the cutest thing. This is a picture of her there.

That's Jean Paul. He's actually in training to become the next James Bond. Couldn't tell. But absolutely love. I love being a dad and I say all that not to brag, God deserves the credit, but just to show you guys like if someone like me can do it, like you guys can certainly do it. And so in this talk, you're not going to get a lecture from someone with a PhD or a psychologist.

That's not me. But just a few really practical tips that have been super helpful for me in my life. And so some of those practical tips are going to be just on how to heal. [00:09:00] We're also going to talk about how to build virtue, because once we've done that, that enables us to love better. And then we're going to talk about the three relationships I think that are most impacted by coming from a broken family, our relationship with our parents, we're going to talk about romantic relationships, and then we're also going to talk about our relationship with God.

And so we have a lot to cover. Um, but does that all sound helpful? Then let's dive in. Before I dive in, I just want to tell you guys, there's a lot of, uh, resources that I'll mention if you guys want to go deeper. Uh, at the end of the talk, there will be a way for us to just email you all those resources in case you don't want to spend the whole talk writing things down.

So I'll tell you at the end, uh, how to do that. When it comes to healing, where do we start? Just like in the medical world, I think we first need to start by diagnosing our emotional wounds. For so many of us, we're kind of a mystery to ourselves, right? We don't really understand why we think, feel, and act the way that we do.

But what controls so much of our behavior is our subconscious, right? Especially the untreated wounds within our [00:10:00] subconscious. The Swiss psychologist Carl Jung said it this way, he said, unless you make the subconscious It will rule your life, and you will call it fate. Unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life, and you will call it fate.

That act of making the subconscious conscious is self knowledge. That's where healing begins. But it doesn't stop there. Self knowledge leads to self awareness in our relationships and everyday situations. Self awareness leads to self mastery in the way that we think and the way that we act. And self mastery is meant to lead to self gift.

So essentially we grow in self knowledge so we can increase our capacity to love. That's the goal of healing. The goal of healing is not some sort of perfection, it's not creating some sort of utopia in which you never suffer again, that's not realistic. The goal of healing is really becoming more virtuous, becoming like Jesus, and being freer to love.

And so we're going to talk about relationships later, like I said, but we have to start here with healing. And so to grow in self knowledge, it's really helpful to hear what researchers have found [00:11:00] about how divorce affects the children. So they found that children of divorce are more likely to struggle with things like social problems, behavioral problems, they're more likely to struggle in their relationship with their parents, in romantic relationships, they're less likely to get married, less likely to have children, more likely to get divorced, like we discussed, they're at higher risk for suicidal attempts.

More health problems, more emotional problems, and lower self esteem. Dr. Judith Wallerstein was one of the researchers who worked on this problem for many, many years. She studied children who were divorced for 25 years at UC Berkeley. Two main takeaways from her research. One, she said the full effects from your parents divorce actually aren't experienced until adulthood.

She called it the sleeper effect. It doesn't mean you're not affected beforehand, but she found in her research has the full effects, the most serious effects come out about college age and beyond. The second thing she said was the biggest area of your life that's impacted by your parents divorce is your romantic relationships, especially your future [00:12:00] marriage.

But perhaps you're thinking, Joey, my parents divorce was pretty civil, right? They weren't throwing cats and plates at each other. It was pretty civil. Dr. Paul Amato is a researcher at Penn State. He's a sociologist there who studied children of divorce for many, many years. He says that when marriages end in divorce, they typically fall into one of two categories, high conflict or low conflict.

He says high conflict means that the problems within the marriage are very overt and obvious to the children. It might include things like abuse, violence, a lot of bad conflict, and a lot of just visible dysfunction. He says less than 30 percent of divorces actually fit within this category. On the other hand, we have low conflict, which means the problems within the marriage are more covert.

They're more hidden from the children. And he says that more than 70 percent of divorces actually fit within this category. And so a model says that low conflict divorces are typically the most traumatic to the children. Seems kind of [00:13:00] counterintuitive. Why is that? In high conflict families, the situation itself is traumatic.

And while a divorce can certainly be even more traumatic, it can add to the trauma. Typically, the children do benefit from some sort of a separation as a protective measure. It's kind of the lesser of two really bad options, even though, as a church, we'd say, the goal is to heal the family and bring the marriage back together.

But in low conflict families, right, things seem to be fine to the children until they're not. And then the parents separate, and it brings a lot of confusion, a lot of pain, a lot of trauma into their life. But why are divorce and these high conflict families so traumatic? Here's why. Each child deserves their mother, their father, and stability that is built upon their love.

But so often what happens in these situations is that our parents love for each other usually vanishes. We're often physically and emotionally left without mom, without dad, or maybe without both. And as a result, instability reigns [00:14:00] within our families and even within ourselves. Divorce is especially traumatic because it's truly the death of a family.

We don't talk about that a lot in our culture, but it's truly the death of a family. And so if you've struggled, if you felt hurt because of what you've been through, to me it makes perfect sense. One girl told me, she's like, Joey, after my parents separated, like, it was super painful for me. Everyone at school knew my parents had separated, and everyone acted like it wasn't a big deal.

In fact, some people maybe just said, oh, it's for the best, everyone's happier. And she said, it was so confusing to me, because it was so painful for me, that it led me to think, maybe something's wrong with me for feeling this way. But the Austrian psychiatrist, Viktor Frankl, had the perfect response to this.

He said, an abnormal response to an abnormal situation, Is a normal behavior. In other words, there's nothing wrong with her with you for feeling that way. Your pain, your struggles make sense given what you've been through. Now while that validation is helpful and even healing, what are some other things that we can do [00:15:00] in order to heal?

I want to share four tips that you can start immediately. That have helped me. One, engage your story. Each of us has a story as if it were a novel or a movie and to engage your story means to reflect on it in an active and constructive way, especially to reflect on the relationships that formed us and nothing forms us more than our relationship with our parents.

And neurobiologists have actually found that this act of reflecting on your story is healing on a neurobiological level. They say that one measure of brain health is neural connectivity. Think of your brain as a web of neurons. The more connection between the neurons, the healthier your brain is. This act of reflecting on your story increases neural connectivity, thereby making your brain healthier and making you healthier.

If you take that a step further And share your story with someone who can receive it with empathy, like a competent therapist, a good friend, maybe a mentor. That's also healing on a neurobiological level. Next, write about emotionally significant events in your life. Dr. James [00:16:00] Penbaker and his wife, early in their marriage, they were really doubting that they should have gotten married at all.

And he was, he was really struggling in particular. He was super depressed, lonely, and he would kind of lock himself alone at his house. And at one point he just decided to start writing about everything that he was experiencing. Just no filter. He did that for three days. After those three days, something amazing happened.

His depression just left him. And so he spent the rest of his career studying this link between writing and healing, writing and emotional processing. And what he'd do in his research is you take a group of people, he'd split them into two. He'd say, group number one. You guys just write about emotionally significant events in your life, things that have been painful and emotionally heavy to you.

Group number two, you guys just write about mundane, everyday things like your shoes, the weather, whatever. Just do it for four days, for 20 minutes each day, that's it. After doing tons of these studies, they found that the people who wrote about the emotionally significant events in their lives were healthier, happier, less depressed, less anxious, had higher quality relationships, [00:17:00] better memory, and more success at work, among other things.

And apparently there's been thousands of studies to confirm these findings. Now Dr. Penbaker, he actually has books to guide you through those writing exercises. It's not the same thing as like, mindless journaling, and those books have been super helpful for me. We can send you links to those in that email I mentioned.

Find someone to guide you. Dr. Gaber Mate, who speaks and writes a lot about trauma, said this, Trauma is not what happens to us, but what we hold inside of us in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so in order to heal, we need an empathetic witness. We need a guide. And so I'd encourage you guys find a competent therapist, find a trained spiritual director, find just wise mentors in your life who can guide you because healing happens in relationships, right?

Healing happens in relationships. Love. is the antidote to trauma. And I've personally benefited from like 15 years of spiritual direction, then seven years of counseling. And I, I'd have to say that the most healing that I've ever [00:18:00] experienced aside from my relationship with God has been in these mentor relationships.

So I definitely encourage you guys to do that. And it's especially helpful to, uh, if you're dealing with maybe heavy emotional problems like anxiety, depression, or maybe, you know, an addiction, something like that. And if you need help finding someone, we have some recommendations through my apostolate.

And finally, ask God to heal you. All these healing tactics that I'm talking about, these human healing tactics, they're good. They're helpful. But eventually we're going to hit a ceiling. God can heal us in ways that we can never heal ourselves. And so we need his grace, his life inside of us. But since, you know, here at Seek, you guys are getting so many good talks by people way smarter than me on spiritual growth, spiritual formation.

I'm not going to go too deep into it, but just one tip that's been helpful for me, adoration. Adoration has been so helpful in healing for me. When you're there, I just encourage you guys to say this simple prayer, Lord, I want to be well. Lord, I want to be well. And then let Jesus as the divine physician do his slow work of healing.

All right. So in summary, we need to heal so we don't repeat that cycle of dysfunction and divorce, but that's only half of the equation, [00:19:00] right? We need to very intentionally build virtue as well. But how do we build virtue? In essence, like virtue means building good habits and breaking the bad ones, right?

We all know that. But a few tips that have been really helpful for me, one, develop emotional agility. So often when we feel pain, when we feel difficult emotions in our lives, we turn to sin as a quick fix. Just like I turned to porn, right, to numb my pain, even though it was damaging my soul, and it was destroying my ability to love.

That's why we need to learn how to properly navigate our emotions, which isn't an easy thing to do, but Dr. Susan David from the Harvard Medical School says to do that, we need to develop what's called emotional agility. Emotional agility is the ability to feel and face your emotions. We're not ignoring them, we're not stuffing them away, we're not denying them, we're feeling them and facing them.

And then choosing your response. In a way that aligns with your deepest held beliefs. We would essentially call that virtue. One tip she shares to do that is to create a space [00:20:00] between stimulus and response. Again, she quotes Viktor Frankl, who I quoted earlier. He said that between stimulus and response, there is a space.

In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response, lies our growth and our freedom. I'm going to say that again. Between stimulus, the thing that makes us feel something, and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.

Essentially what we need to do is we need to lengthen that space. We need to pause, we need to slow down, we need to take a deep breath and detach from the intensity of the emotions so we can choose our response with our minds. Next, fill your human needs. So often we fall into vice, we fall into sin because we're not filling our legitimate human needs.

I've seen this again and again in my own life, and it's kind of tempting, I think, to over spiritualize this stuff, but I think it's this simple. If we take care of our human needs, we're going to remove so much temptation. And so we need to take care of ourselves in four areas. Our bodies need good sleep.[00:21:00]

College kids aren't great at that, but our bodies need good sleep, right? We need seven to eight hours according to, to the expert. I wasn't good at that as a college student, I should say. So seven to eight hours, good quality sleep. We need good nutrition. We didn't unprocessed clean foods, right? And half a gallon to a gallon of water every single day.

And we need exercise. We need movement. Walking is a great place to start. There's a lot of good research behind that. But eventually there's more and more research coming out that says like weightlifting is so good for you, especially as you age, it helps you stay young. Our souls need God's grace, right?

God's life inside of us, which we primarily get through the sacraments, through a deep interior life and through good deeds. But we also need experiences of goodness, truth, and beauty. And it's not just limited to church, right? We need it with our friends in nature, through music, stories, the list goes on.

Our hearts need intimacy, right? We need relationships. We need people to love and people to love us. And our minds need challenges, essentially. We need to learn new things and have new experiences. And so my question to you guys would be like, what's just one area where maybe you're lacking a little bit?

Make a simple plan to just [00:22:00] start improving there. Next, practice the virtues. The Catechism says that to be virtuous We have to learn the virtues and then practice them very deliberately, just like we'd practice any sort of skill. When it comes to learning the virtues, I'd probably just recommend Father Mike Schmitz's Catechism in a Year, especially the parts on virtue, you'll learn a lot there, but for hacks on practicing the virtues, I highly recommend actually a secular book, which you guys have probably heard of, uh, called Atomic Habits.

Atomic Habits by James Clare, great book, and in it, he breaks down the four parts of a habit. And this is super helpful if you want to build virtue to know these things. First is the cue, then the craving, then the response, then the reward. I'll explain each. The cue triggers your brain to initiate a behavior.

The craving is the desire that you have for the reward. The response is the actual habit, the behavior you perform. And the reward is, of course, the satisfaction you get from the habit. Now imagine that you maybe have the habit of grabbing your [00:23:00] phone every time it buzzes, right? Buzzes with maybe a notification for a text message, let's say.

The cue is your phone buzzing with the new text message. The craving is that you want to know what the text says. The response is you grabbing your phone and reading the text message. And the reward is that you feel satisfied now knowing what the text message says. But let's say you want to break that habit.

James Clear says that you need to do one or more of these things. He said, make the cue invisible. unattractive, make the response difficult, make the reward unsatisfying. So in our example of grabbing the phone, I think the easiest and simplest switch would be to make the cue invisible, turning off all of your text message notifications maybe, or just putting your phone on do not disturb during certain hours.

That's how to break a bad habit, right? To build a good habit, he says make the cue obvious, Make the craving attractive, make the response easy, and make the [00:24:00] reward satisfying. And we can talk about more of what that looks like during the Q& A if you guys want to. But one more tip from the book, the two minute rule.

The two minute rule is where you perform any habit that you're trying to build for just two minutes and then you stop. And do this for a period of time. In the book, he tells a story about one guy who would go to the gym. He really struggled exercising, so he'd go to the gym and perform a two minute workout, that was it, and then he'd leave.

He did that enough times to where he got in the habit of going to the gym and working out, then he started doing full length workouts. Within a year, it sounds kind of silly, right? But within a year or so, he lost a hundred pounds. Next, refuse to be a victim. One of the biggest barriers that I see to building virtue is victim mentality, right?

It's something that's really plaguing our society right now. Building virtue requires a ton of action, but victim mentality keeps us feeling stuck, feeling powerless, waiting for someone to rescue us and do the work for us. One guy who absolutely destroyed victim [00:25:00] mentality is a guy by the name of Ryan Jobe.

Ryan Jobe was a Navy SEAL. He fought in the Middle East and Iraq, and one day when they were clearing buildings, he got hit in the face with a sniper's bullet. He survived, but he would never again see. He was completely blind. Absolutely devastating. What Ryan could have done As he could have been totally debilitated by his wounds.

He could have just given up. He could have just remained a victim, because he truly was a victim in that situation. But he refused. He said, losing my vision will not stop me from living a good and meaningful life. And so as a blind man, he did some incredible things. He summited Mount Rainier. If you guys aren't familiar, Mount Rainier is a mountain out in Washington State.

It's 14, 000 feet high, not an easy climb. Every year on average, like one to two people die climbing Mount Rainier. He did it as a blind man. He trained for a triathlon, he earned his bachelor's degree and got a 4. 0, he successfully hunted an elk as a blind man, he married his girlfriend, and they had a baby together.

Two lessons I learned from him. One, his pain. Became a [00:26:00] catalyst for growth instead of a barrier to it. And I think the difference between Ryan and people who just give up is that he's simply standing on top of his pain and his problems instead of being crushed by them. Next, Ryan was so resilient. I think the reason he was so resilient is because he did hard things, right?

Obviously as a seal, he was like constantly doing hard things, but he suffered in those smaller ways so that he can handle that big suffering. And so we need to do the same. And so I actually challenge you guys this week at seek. Take the stairs. Take a cold shower. Like if that's kind of intimidating, one thing that I've done is do 30 seconds of like cold water at the beginning of your shower or 30 seconds at the end.

Give up social media for the week. You know, do a hard exercise. Don't kill yourself, but do a hard exercise. Just do hard things, get tough. But one of the biggest areas of bad habits for people like us is in unwanted sexual behavior. Dr. Patrick Carnes, an expert on sexual addiction, he found that 87 percent of people who struggle with a [00:27:00] sexual addiction come from a broken family.

Almost nine out of ten. I learned that from Jay Stringer. Jay Stringer is a Christian therapist who's studied almost 4, 000 men and women who struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction, whether it's porn, masturbation, cheating, buying sex, the list goes on. By the end of his research, they were able to predict the type of trauma that someone endured, especially in their families, based on the type of sexual fantasies and porn searches that they sought out.

In other words, it wasn't random. There was actually a pattern to it. Because of that, he says if you want to break free, you have to listen to your lust. Sounds kind of odd. What does he mean? He's of course not encouraging us to fall into lust, but rather to deeply understand it. Why? Because lust is just a symptom.

It's just a symptom of a deeper wound. It pinpoints where more healing is needed. And so I'd highly recommend checking out his book called Unwanted. We did a podcast episode with him as well, [00:28:00] but a few other resources at the conference. That will help you in this area. Matt Fradd and Jason Everett wrote a great book called forged.

It's a 33 day challenge for men to grow in purity. You can get that at the chastity project booth. If you're interested, the books didn't show up yet. There's a problem with the shipment that we had. Uh, so there'll be there tomorrow at some point. So you can get the forge book. If you want to Magdala ministries, perhaps you guys have heard of them.

They're a great ministry to help women who are struggling with sexual compulsion or addiction. They have a booth here as well. And so check that out. Rachel Kulaki, their leader, one of their leaders, she wrote a book called love and recovery about. her own struggles with sexual addiction, sexual compulsion.

So check that out. Um, Kelsey Skok is another one who, speaker, author, who wrote a book on her struggles with sexual compulsion. So you can get that one at the Chastity Project booth as well. And the Magdala Ministries is here as well. They have a booth not far from Chastity Project if you want to check that out.

And there's a lot of other resources we can send you guys in that email as well. But just to kind of summarize again, to break the cycle, again, we have to start with our own healing and building virtue. So we're freer to love. But how do we [00:29:00] practically build strong, healthy relationships? Again, I want to talk about three types of relationships.

Our relationship with our parents, romantic relationships, and our relationship with God. In college, I really struggled in my relationship with my dad. Like, he was in a really tough spot, and he was just acting out in a lot of ways that were harming people that I cared about. And so I felt convicted that if I were to continue my relationship with him, almost pretending like this stuff wasn't happening, I would kind of be tacitly approving that behavior.

And so again, I felt convicted to cut off communication with him, not an easy decision, but I didn't want to just ghost him. I wanted him to know why I was doing it. And so I wrote him a letter talking to him face to face at that time wouldn't have gone super well. So I wrote him this letter and I said, dad, I love you.

I want a good relationship with you. But as long as you act in this way, unfortunately that isn't possible. But as soon as I see your behavior start to change, I'll be more than happy to restart the relationship with you. We didn't talk for a year and a half. That was hard. But eventually his behavior did [00:30:00] change, and we were able to resume the relationship.

We're in a much better spot today. And so I'm not encouraging you guys to just, you know, cut off communication with your parents. That's an extreme. That takes a lot of discernment. But for any relationship to be healthy, boundaries are needed. And boundaries aren't just good for you, they're good for the relationship and the person on the other end as well.

But so often boundaries can kind of feel mean, especially if you're not used to, you know, using them in your life. Because it's true. It's true. Boundaries sometimes hurt. But there's a difference between hurt and harm. Hurt is pain that doesn't damage the person. It might even help them, like a life saving surgery.

Harm is pain that damages the person, like abuse. But to be a little bit more specific, so often boundaries are needed in a few areas, parents especially who are, you know, are going through a lot of pain through their own divorce or a lot of brokenness in the family kind of struggle in these areas we've learned.

One, bad mouthing. So often mom and dad just kind of speak badly about the other in our presence. Two, the middleman situation. So we're often expected as the children to maybe relay [00:31:00] information between mom and dad because they're not on speaking terms. And then spousification. Or mom or dad kind of rely on us as their emotional support and confidant.

And during Q and A, if you guys want to talk a little bit more about some tips on how to set boundaries in each of those situations, I'm happy to go into that. We also have a podcast episode on boundaries. If you guys are interested, we could send that to you. Next, if possible, deepen your relationship with mom and dad.

Now, if the relationship is abusive, or, you know, it's damaging to you, or maybe mom or dad don't want a relationship with you, which is super hard, obviously this isn't going to be realistic, but if you can, a good relationship with mom and dad is super important. Here's why. There was a study they did on high school students in Turkey.

And as you'd expect, they found that the students who came from divorced families were more likely to struggle with things like anxiety, depression, and loneliness. But if they had a good relationship with one or both parents, they were much less likely to struggle with anxiety, depression, and so it's definitely worth a shot to deepen your relationship with your parents.

Again, during Q& A if you want to, I [00:32:00] can throw out some ideas for how to better bond with your parents. Next, work toward forgiving your parents. Forgiveness isn't the first step of healing, it often comes later, but it's so freeing, like I've experienced that in my own life. Here's my definition of forgiveness though.

It's a continual decision to release someone of a debt they owe you for a past wrong they committed. And it involves a process. Two places to start, Father Mike Schmidt says that before we can forgive, we have to count the costs. We have to assess the damage, we have to tally it up before we can release them of the repayment that they owe us.

Father John Burns, he says too that the Latin word for mercy is misericordia, which literally means to be moved by the misery of another. Kind of a scary thing to do. But we need to ask the question, like, what was going on in their life that caused them to harm me in this way? That compassion is the start of forgiveness.

But a few final things, quick things about your relationship with your parents. If you're worried about your parents souls, remember that people can change, you [00:33:00] can't change them. People can change, you can't change them. Instead, just focus on living a holy life. Be an example to them and entrust them to God's mercy.

And remember that God desires to save them even more than you do. And one tactic that I've heard Jason Everett recommend is To ask all the religious sisters like here at Sikh to pray for your parents. You can write their name on a piece of paper, cut it up and hand it to them if you want to. And just, Hey, would you pray for this person?

You pray for my mom, my dad. But as much as we might struggle in our relationship with our parents, romantic relationships are really the hardest for people like us. Why do we struggle so much here? Our families are meant to be the school of love, right? And in broken families, essentially we get really poor training and how to love and how to build a relationship.

And so when it's our turn to be love. We often feel lost. We feel incompetent at it. We fear that our relationship will one day end the way that our parents did, like I experienced. And healthy relationships might even feel foreign and boring because we're so used to drama and dysfunction. But to build love that lasts, [00:34:00] the starting point is what we've been talking about, right?

Healing your brokenness, building virtue. Because if you want a great marriage, it starts with you. It has nothing to do with your relationship. Why is that? It's simple. You, and eventually your spouse, are the lid on your marriage. Your marriage will only be as healthy, happy, and holy as each of you are individually.

And what I've seen in the great marriages I've been blessed to know is this truth. The more virtuous the spouses, the happier the marriage. The more virtuous the spouses, the happier the marriage always. But beyond healing and building virtue, a few quick tips. Find a virtuous spouse. One guy said that marriage is the type of game where you win or lose the championship in the draft.

So we need to find virtuous spouses. But what sort of virtues should you look for? Obviously you want someone who has all the virtues, but I'd highlight a few. Find someone who's humble. Humility is the foundation of all the virtues. And within marriage, it's so helpful because it gives you the ability to apologize and to forgive your spouse.

And that [00:35:00] happens a lot. You can ask my wife. She's a pro at forgiveness. Find someone who's selfless, someone who has a heart for others. The best way you can tell if they have this heart for others, how do they spend their time and their money? Are they doing that selfishly or are they doing that to serve others?

That's one of the things that actually attracted me to my wife. Like, she's a nurse and she was always involved in ministry and just clearly had a heart for other people. Find someone who's living the virtue of chastity. We hear a lot about chastity. Why is it so important? A big part of it is because at the core of chastity is self mastery.

And self mastery is just an essential skill within a marriage because it gives you the ability to die to yourself and do what's best for your spouse and your children. Find someone who has empathy. Empathy is so helpful because within marriage, conflict is going to happen, and the goal is just to make that conflict healthy.

And empathy is so helpful because it gives you the ability to step into someone else's shoes, to see things through their eyes. Find someone who has a growth mindset. A growth mindset is basically just the belief that you can change, you can grow, you can get better. A fixed mindset is the opposite. It's the belief that you just can't change, can't grow, you're kind [00:36:00] of stuck the way that you are.

Why is this so important? Because you don't just marry the person that they are today, you marry the person that they will become. And one of the greatest indications of who they will become is their action and attitude toward growth, and so pay attention to that. Find someone who you could be friends with, someone who gets you, because marriage is so much more than romance and sex.

In fact, it probably could be said that the quality of a marriage is best measured by the quality of the friendship between the spouses. Not their sex life, not the romance, not the feelings that they have for each other. As good as and important as all of those things are, it's not the ultimate measure.

Find someone you want your children to be like. Just ask yourself this question when you're dating someone, do I want my children to be like this person? Find someone who's on the same page with you in these areas. God, money, parenting, in laws, and intimacy. So God, someone who ideally shares your faith.

Money, someone who has a similar vision of how you want to manage and spend your money. Parenting, someone who obviously wants to have kids and has a similar vision for how to form them and raise them. [00:37:00] And then in laws, someone who can, you know, good boundaries and have a healthy relationship with their families.

In intimacy, someone who can set healthy boundaries, you know, around sexual intimacy, especially, you know, outside of marriage, but then even boundaries within marriage and obviously some effort towards keeping, you know, intimacy, emotional, sexual intimacy in your marriage is super important. If you're on the same page in these areas, researchers say that the likelihood of you having a successful marriage just like shoots up.

And when marriages fall apart, if you notice, like it's usually because one or more of these things aren't aligned. But when discerning all this, we have to be careful. John Paul II said that as a rule, we exaggerate the goodness, the virtue of the person that we love. He says as a rule, we all do this. And so we need to ask the question, is this person actually virtuous?

And we shouldn't discern alone, right? Because love is blinding. We all know this. And so involve your family if you can, involve your friends, and actively ask for feedback. Okay, do you guys see any red flags? Like, what do you think about this relationship? Don't wait for people to bring feedback to you because they might not.

And it might be scary. You might not like the [00:38:00] answers that you get, but it will save you a lot of heartache. I really wish I'd done this sooner in some of my relationships. I remember after one of my relationships ended, uh, one of my best friends was like, Oh yeah, I saw this happening like six months ago.

I'm like, bro, like would have been helpful to know that. But to be fair, to be fair, I probably wouldn't have listened to him. But most of all, place all of this in God's hands. Like trust him. Like, he'll provide for you to the degree that you rely on him. I know the dating world right now is kind of a hot mess, like, it's really tricky out there for you guys.

I do not envy you, and so make sure to just trust God above all else. And take to heart the words of Curtis Martin, who said so well, he said, don't pursue your soulmate, pursue God, and after a while of running after him, turn to see who's keeping up with you. Next, set healthy expectations for marriage.

Perhaps you've heard of the Paris syndrome. The Paris syndrome is a psychological condition where when tourists go to Paris, France, they suffer extreme shock, disappointment, and other symptoms. This isn't a [00:39:00] joke. It's been documented by medical journalists. Like, they get so disrupted that they have to either go home or get medical attention.

What's going on here? Basically, the messy reality of Paris did not live up to the romantic expectations they had, and as a result, they were greatly disappointed. Similarly, if our expectations for marriage are unhealthy, if they're off, it's going to cause a lot of problems. And one popular unhealthy expectation that so many of us have, even in the Catholic world, is believing that the purpose of marriage is happiness.

The purpose of marriage is not happiness. The purpose of marriage is holiness, and of course having children and forming them. But nowhere in the wedding vows is happiness promised. I know, super romantic, but this is important. This is important because underneath almost every divorce is this belief.

Consciously or not, we expect our spouse to make us perfectly happy. And when they don't, we tend to think, hmm, maybe I married the wrong person. Maybe I picked the wrong location, I mean, I might even be tempted to leave. And so, your marriage will suffer to [00:40:00] the extent that you expect your spouse to make you perfectly happy.

Only God can do that. But does that mean there's no place for happiness within marriage? No, of course, of course there is. It's a good thing to make your spouse happy, to just enjoy all the happiness that comes with marriage. But don't be fooled. Marriage is hard work. It doesn't come to your door in a prime box.

We've been so conditioned in our culture that if we want something, we click a button and it shows up in a few days. Not so with marriage. Marriage is more like farming. It takes time to see the fruit of your labor, but we all know this. We don't know that the best things in life take hard work. Ask any Olympian how they won a gold medal.

They're not going to say they did it by sitting on the couch and watching Netflix. They put in the work every single day, especially when they didn't feel like it. If we want great marriages, why should we expect any less? And so one of the most helpful tactics that has worked for me and a lot of other people to set healthy expectations for marriage is just spending time with good couples, with good families.

Like, just soak in the presence of like their healthy, functional family. It will be so healing and helpful for you as well. And we can talk [00:41:00] about more how to build those relationships during Q& A if you guys want to. And again, I've like benefited from those two families in particular that were just super helpful and healing for me.

Next, prepare for the temptation to quit. This is probably the most unpopular thing I'll say in this talk, but be prepared for this. Expect things within your marriages to get difficult. Expect times where you just don't want to be married, where you'd rather quit and walk away. It might be days. It might be seasons.

For some of you, it'll maybe happen right away. For others, years down the road. And if you're shocked, if this is kind of scandalizing to you, think about it. Why do we make the vow? Why do we make the vow? If we were never tempted to quit, the vow really wouldn't be necessary. Desire alone would hold the marriage together.

And so when you or maybe your friends struggle within your marriage, just remember that you shouldn't believe the lie, that there's only two options. To stay married and be miserable, or get divorced and be happy. There is a third option. You can heal your marriage. You can make it strong. And there's a lot of great resources out there.

Again, during Q& A, if you guys want to, we could talk about [00:42:00] that. There's obviously so much more to say about relationships, but we can email you guys an entire talk we've done on this topic. There's a guide we have on it to building healthy relationships. And I also recommend Jason Everett's book, how to find your soulmate without losing your soul.

Such a good one for women. And then for men, he has the dating blueprint book, which is super great, super practical. And you can again, get those. But the final relationship in which so many of us struggle is in our relationship with God. Why is that? As children, the most powerful creature that we know are our parents.

And so we tend to think, well, if they're like this, then God must be like that too. We project their image onto him. But in broken families, this presents a problem. We often walk away with this extra distorted image of God, which is a huge barrier to intimacy with him. And I would propose that like, if you feel far from God right now.

This might be one of the reasons. And so an exercise a lot of people have found helpful to kind of untangle that distorted image of God, is just making two lists. One list is all the things you've felt God is [00:43:00] like. You can say these are the lies, right? The next is a list of the truth that you've learned about God, right?

From scripture, from the saints, from the sacraments, from the church. But as helpful as that may be, the biggest struggle I think we often face in our relationship with God is just feeling abandoned by him, which often leads to anger. There was one guy who told me, he's like, Joey, I don't believe in God. He said, honestly, it's probably because of being mad at whatever divine being is out there because of all the mess of things that happened within my family.

And so if you're angry at God, I get it. I've been there. Just make sure to bring your anger to him. He already knows about it. And he can handle it, I promise you. And don't let it drive a wedge between you. That so often happens in our world. And I'm speaking from experience here. Like, I've had to deal with this myself.

I've had to ask the question, like, God, why did you let this happen? Why'd you let my family fall apart? And more importantly, like, where were you? Where were you? Honestly, it felt like he was just sitting on the sidelines watching as I got my teeth kicked in. So I had to ask God, where were you? And the answer didn't come quick.

It took years, a lot of adoration, [00:44:00] a lot of prayer, a lot of spiritual direction. But in time, I become so convicted that God was not just watching from the sidelines. He was actually right there with me in the midst of the pain. He was right there with that 10 year old Joey, sitting in the closet, crying too, saying, this breaks my heart.

I don't want this to happen. It's not supposed to be this way. And what I've learned is that sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. Father Mike Schmidt said that. Sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. And the best proof, of course, that we have that God is in the midst of our suffering is Jesus on the cross.

We can never say that we have a God who doesn't know what it's like to suffer. And so instead of pushing him away when you suffer in life, just try holding on to him. Try holding on to him in the midst of that suffering. But even with all of that, it can still be hard to accept why God allows suffering.

And that's when we're challenged to just trust him. To trust that he can bring good out of it, to trust that he knows what he's doing, that he knows what he's about. St. John Newman said it so beautifully, he said, [00:45:00] Therefore, I will trust him. Whatever I am, I can never be thrown away. If I'm in sickness, my sickness may serve him.

In perplexity, my perplexity may serve him. If I'm in sorrow, my sorrow may serve him. He does nothing in vain. He knows what he is about. And so in closing, there's a real danger, guys, that if we don't heal, if we don't Build virtue, we're going to end up repeating that cycle. We'll pass our brokenness onto the people that we love the most, but that doesn't have to be our story.

If we heal our brokenness, if we build virtue, we can go on and build healthy relationships, strong marriages and holy families. And this is how we transform our culture. John Paul II said that as the family goes, so goes the nation and so goes the whole world in which we live. And so if we do all of that, I really believe that we can transform our broken culture into a Catholic culture where the human person flourishes and souls are saved and there's nothing More important, but maybe after hearing all of this, you're feeling a little bit overwhelmed.

So just remember you don't heal overnight. Transformation takes time. It won't be easy. It might even be harder for [00:46:00] you than someone who has had an easier life, but so be it. You're going to be okay, guys. If you make those like 1 percent improvements every single day, and trust in God's grace more than your own strength, you're gonna look up a year from now at the next seek, and be like, wow, I've grown a lot.

You'll be a better, stronger, more virtuous person with a greater capacity to love. And remember, you're not alone. Like, I'm right there with you guys, I'm trying to live this out in my own life as imperfectly as I might do that at times. And I'd say make sure to not just do this for yourself, don't just heal and build virtue for yourself.

Do it for the people that you love in your life. For me, my family is my motivation. I bring their picture back up. I want to spare them the pain and the trauma that I endured. I don't want to pass my brokenness onto them. I want to give them the family that they deserve. With God's help, you guys can do the same.

Not only can you do the same, but if God's calling you to marriage, this is your mission. And so my challenge to you guys is this. What's just one thing that really resonated with you in this talk, just one, [00:47:00] just take action on that one thing this week. That's it. Kind of my prayers for you guys. I have over a thousand sisters praying for you and, uh, just so honored to be here with you guys.

God bless you guys. If you want the resources mentioned in the talk, just go to restored ministry. com slash talk. or click on the link in the show notes, we'll be happy to send those to you. After the talk, I had the privilege of chatting with the college students, with the young adults, uh, one on one answering their questions, listening to their stories.

And the line was actually over two and a half hours long. And to me, it just shows how badly this message is needed. And so if you feel the same and you'd like your school, your university, church conference, youth group, young adult group to hear this message or any of the other talks that we offer, we'd love to work with you.

If my schedule allowed, and you can feel free to fill out the speaking form at restored ministry. com slash speaking, or by clicking the link in the show notes. So, I'm going to go ahead and start with the show notes. Now, by doing that, you're not committing to anything. Of course, you're just gathering more info.

There's actually an option to schedule a time to discuss your potential event with my team if you prefer that. And also, I can deliver a secular [00:48:00] version of my talk that doesn't mention God or faith if you have a secular audience. Again, that's restoredministry. com slash speaking or by clicking the link in the show notes.

Again, my availability is limited due to a bunch of recent requests for speaking engagements, but we'd be happy to work with you if my schedule allows. That wraps up this episode. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life.

And we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Restored 1/15/25 Restored 1/15/25

#140: Hardest Part of the Divorce: Seeing My Siblings Struggle | Anthony

The hardest part of your parents’ divorce or family breakdown is seeing the people you love suffer. That was true for my guest today who happens to be my older brother, Anthony.

The hardest part of your parents’ divorce or family breakdown is seeing the people you love suffer.

That was true for my guest today who happens to be my older brother, Anthony: Watching our siblings struggle was the hardest part for him.

In this episode, you’ll hear us compare stories about our parents’ divorce from our perspectives as siblings, plus:

How Anthony had a sense of, “This is not how things ought to be” and a little about how a family ought to be.
How he was automatically made the man of the house when he shouldn’t have been and the effects of that.
How healing is not a one-size-fits-all, the imperfections of certain types of therapy, and a new healing method that’s been effective for him.
To parents listening: Tips on discussing your divorce with your children without oversharing.

If your parents are divorced or struggling in their marriage and watching your siblings suffer has been hard for you, this episode is especially for you.

Dakota Lane Fitness: Schedule a FREE Consult

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide: The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

To request Anthony’s email address, email podcast@restoredministry.com

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: [00:00:00] What was life like for you during the separations, the divorce?

Anthony: It was kind of hell, if I'm being honest. So like that whole time was like the hardest times of my life. Like the tapestry of my life or our family's life is being torn apart. And at the same time, like I couldn't do anything about it. And that was like, incredibly helpless.

I was kind of an intermediary. I remember a lot of times kind of getting in between mom and dad and trying to like talk them to the other person's side. As a child in that situation you had this like gut instinct that this is not how things ought to be.

Joey: You mentioned anxiety, you mentioned like pressure, stress, but were there any other emotional problems that you experienced through all that?

Anthony: I think as a child What you want to know is like that things are secure, that you're safe. I remember looking out the window and there being like these police cars. And you're like, Holy shit. Like what, you know, like what's going on here.

Joey: Welcome to the resort podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you.

We help you heal your [00:01:00] brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle. And build a better life. My guest today is actually my older brother, Anthony. He grew up in the Chicagoland area as the oldest of six kids, where he played every sport imaginable. Uh, he double majored in philosophy and theology at Franciscan university of Steubenville, where he captained and starred on the baseball team being awarded the Kuzma cup as an outstanding scholar athlete.

After graduation, Anthony taught theology. He did youth ministry and coached baseball for several years. He now works in the golf industry as the director of food and beverage operations at a golf club in Illinois. Anthony is a proud uncle and loves spending time with his niece and nephew, actually my kids, and he still enjoys sports traveling and in his words, it's a degenerate fantasy football player.

Really excited for this conversation. If you come from a divorced or broken family, the hardest part is seeing the people that you love. Suffer that was true for my brother, for Anthony, he said, watching his siblings struggle was the hardest part for him. And in this episode, you'll hear us compare [00:02:00] stories of our parents divorce from our perspectives as siblings.

And you'll hear us talk about how divorce is almost always a lose lose for the children, how Anthony had the sense of this is not how it ought to be. And we talk a little bit about how a family ought to be, how he was automatically made the man of the house when he really shouldn't have been in the effects.

of that on him, how he, uh, his experience healing, but how healing is not one size fits all and the imperfections of certain therapy models, certain therapy types, and a new healing method that's been effective for him, uh, to any parents listening, we talk about some tips on how to talk with your children about your divorce without oversharing.

And then Anthony shares how he struggled in his relationship with God and what he learned that has helped him heal. And so if your parents are divorced or struggling in their marriage and watching your siblings suffer has been the hardest part for you, this episode is especially for you. Two things before we dive in.

You'll hear me share details about my parents divorce that I don't usually go into as much detail about. And without changing my story, I often simplify it on this show to make [00:03:00] it a little bit more concise. Um, but I'm really glad that we were able to dive into those details and I'm able to share those with you guys.

And also in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this.

Just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to learn a lot from this episode, still going to benefit you. And so with that, here's our conversation. Welcome on the show. Good to have you here.

Anthony: Thanks, Joe. Thanks for having me, bud.

Joey: You are the first family member to come on the show.

So I'm excited to, uh, just see things through your perspective. One of the things that I've always heard is like, as a parent, you're never the same parent to each child. And I think it's true, like as a sibling within a family, like. You each perceive the family and even your parents differently. So I'm really interested to like learn from you and see maybe how you perceive things differently.

And I perceive things differently. So yeah, with that, I'm curious from your perspective, what was [00:04:00] home like in the years and the months before mom and dad split?

Anthony: Ooh, I guess like, so there was kind of this, you know, kind of waves of, cause the original time that, you know, about 10 years prior mom and dad had split for a while or been separated for a while.

And then they got back together and it was kind of like this miraculous reconciliation to some degree, or at least for a while. Right.

Joey: Totally.

Anthony: But in terms of like the months. The months prior, maybe not months and years, the months prior were pretty strenuous. I think it all started like when our uncle died in August of 2012.

And it kind of put our dad, understandably, in a very difficult place, you know, dealing with like the second traumatic death in his family in his lifetime. And so, you know, kind of You know, re triggered all that trauma and you know, so it brought it up to the surface again and I think, you know, kind of put him in a, in a whirlwind and then so fast forward, like six months later when mom and you [00:05:00] know, when mom and dad ended up, you know, the filing for the divorce was made, you know, the months before we're tense.

I remember Like when that finally went through, or it finally, like there was finally a separation, just remember realizing, like feeling my body shaking and realizing, like, I think I've been shaking for like months, you know, I just remember this distinct moment of feeling that. And it was, yeah, it was just like, it's just like, it was a very difficult period.

Like it's, you know, when you're a child in that situation. And I mean, at that time I was. You know, I was older. I was in my twenties. So an adult child, you can say, but as a child in that situation, you had this like gut instinct, this like intestinal fortitude that this is not how things ought to be. And like in that whole time, well, pretty much for most of my life, but especially in that whole time, like I really had this, this is not how things ought to be.

This is not how things ought to be. And it's like this disharmony or this, what do you call it? And what do you call it? When music, when the notes don't, you know how [00:06:00] the notes go together, but then there's a time when the notes don't go together. I can't think of the term. Yeah.

Joey: Discordant or disharmonic or

Anthony: something like that.

Discordant. Yeah. I think it's discordant or something along those lines. Yeah. It's like, you know, musical notes were, you know, like C, A, you know, D minor, all these things were made to go together. But like in, And different types of music, they play like discordant notes. And that's how it felt like that period is just like this, like discordant notes.

It's like intestinal sense that like, this is not how things ought to be.

Joey: That's really good. I think part of the reason that people miss how. traumatic divorce and the dysfunction that precedes it can be is because they don't have this like understanding of how things ought to be. Because if family life is whatever you want it to be or whatever, yeah, whatever you define it as, um, there's no like objective standard of what it like should live up to.

Then I think there's often this perception that like, well, that was just Not a big deal. It's not a big problem. But obviously the stories that we hear all the time and the [00:07:00] research show that, so it's really interesting that you kind of had this thought, this is not how it ought to be. Did you have an idea or understanding of how things ought to be?

Anthony: Yeah, definitely. Um, you know, like, we were blessed to grow up with some families, particularly one family, right? That I think really, like you just looked at them and you're like, this is how it's supposed to be, you know, and it kind of was like a, they're like a beacon of peace amid like the storms of like a troubled marriage, you know, and, um, so having that, and then also seeing a bunch of other couples, like I can think of a couple off the top of my head that you're like, look at that and you see that and you're like, I want that because that's not what I grew up with.

But you just know, like, you don't, you know, it's almost like self evident truth, like, you don't need anyone, it's like the little kid who just knows that something isn't fair. That kid couldn't define justice, but they know that something isn't fair. And it's the same thing, like, kind of, I think, in those situations.

You couldn't define what's wrong particularly, or you couldn't maybe put it into words, [00:08:00] but you know it when you see it. Um, that, that being the right thing. And I think that was like very much my experience growing up.

Joey: Yeah, no, that's super good. Wow. I definitely see what you're saying. And I thought it might be helpful for everyone listening to maybe go through the timeline as an overview and feel free to correct or add anything you'd like.

So for everyone listening, so our parents actually separated twice and they actually began a divorce on both occasions. To my knowledge, you can correct that. You're right. Yeah. Yep. So I was a 10, 11. When it first happened, and then you would have been what, 13, 14 at that time, about? Yep. Yep. So then, um, that was the first instant they were separated for what, a year and a half, I think?

That's the knowledge that I had. That's what it sounded about, right?

Anthony: Yeah, it was pretty much spring of when I was 14, I would say, until like December of when I was 15. Okay. Yeah. So that makes up about a year and a half. Yeah.

Joey: So spring of 2003 to December of 2004.

Anthony: Yeah, exactly.

Joey: Okay. Yeah. I [00:09:00] remember it was around their anniversary actually that dad came home.

Yeah. So that was like, Anthony mentioned that it was a kind of a miraculous event. They went on this retreat. Um, some of you might be familiar with like the retrovive retreats. And that was from, to my knowledge, like pretty instrumental. It would, maybe it wasn't the whole picture to, um, To bringing them back together because they, like I said, had started the legal divorce proceedings, whatever, and, um, and then they kind of changed course and got back together.

Um, the way I always explain it then is that it was good that they were together, but things were very broken, you know, at home within the marriage. And that's not to like pass judgment on our parents. I think they would both describe it that way if they were here right now. And then fast forward about 10 years, so I am, I think, 20 at the time, or I guess 19 going on 20, and it was August, like you said, of 2012, so I'm 19 at the time, you would have been, what was it?

Anthony: Uh, 23, 23, sorry, you to

Joey: turn 23 and I was about to turn 20. Yeah. Anyway. So, so for, just for [00:10:00] context, like I was at home, I was, I went to junior college. I took the semester off ironically when our uncle passed away and that's when, you know, understandably so it just really weighed on my dad and that's kind of put the things in emotion like Anthony said before.

And then later that. So that was the fall, that was August, so go into like the spring, and March was when the divorce was filed, if I'm remembering right. So that was kind of just the timeline of how things went down, and then they, our parents, um, went through, uh, actually a three year divorce process, if I'm getting that right, too.

Yeah. It was very, like, I remember someone saying, like, you know, a year is about average, two years is, like, very long, three years is, like, insane, and that was the process. Um, so in some way, we went through this twice, and both each kind of had their particular, like, struggles and details, which we may or may not get into in depth.

Um, but certainly both really difficult and traumatic, I would say. So anyway, with that kind of timeline in place, hopefully that helps you guys understand kind of where we're at in the story. So I'm curious. Um, yeah. So, so you, [00:11:00] you went through kind of what led up to the separation, the divorce. Is there anything else you'd like to add in that?

Or do you feel like we're at a good spot?

Anthony: No, I, I think we're at a pretty good spot. Yeah. I think it was just, you know, you know, of course you can't limit it to like those. And, you know, nothing is, or almost nothing is, you know, just only sparked by one thing. There's usually a lot of things that play into it.

So I don't, I'm not as simplistic as saying like our uncle's death started all this. Cause obviously with the timeline you described it didn't.

Yeah.

Anthony: But you know, there's always kind of, um, I think there was, you know, things happening before that, that definitely contributed. So

Joey: yeah. Cool. Okay. So just to, again, reiterate, you were originally what?

14? 15? 15. When mom and dad split and then you were 22 when they divorced or when they started their divorce, at least, and then, um, and how old are you now?

Anthony: I am. I'd rather not reveal that. I'm just kidding. I'm 35.

Joey: Okay, cool. Yeah, that's helpful for context. And for the record, I [00:12:00] did know that. And so I guess we'll kind of maybe treat both instance separately.

Well, separation separately. So how did you learn about the separation, the divorce, and what was your reaction to it?

Anthony: So I learned about it. Mom came to me and told me that she was going to get a divorce, you know, because she was scared. She didn't feel safe. You know, basically she had kind of reached her wits end.

And so I was Kind of a little bit shocked, but a little bit not surprised. And I actually, I'm pretty sure I told her like, yeah, like after a long time of her, like talking about it and me saying, don't do it at this time, I was like, yeah, I think you should do it because things had gotten that bad and I didn't.

I just remember overhearing some like just conversations that kind of made my blood, you know, like gave me chills, you know, they were kind of just that disturbing, you know, and not something a kid should be hearing or of any age. And so I was remember thinking like, well, you know, it couldn't, couldn't get any worse [00:13:00] than this.

So maybe a, you know, a separation or divorce is, you know, not a terrible idea.

Joey: Yeah, and I think, um, yeah, I know we're kind of being careful with some of the details just to protect mom and dad for everyone listening, because we don't want to disparage their names, but we're also we're trying to be honest about it too.

So it's definitely a difficult line to walk. But, um, so that was like that later instance. And I'm curious about the one earlier on how you learned about that, because I have a kind of a version of the story in my head, but I'm curious if yours, like when you were 14, how did you learn about that? What was your reaction to it?

Anthony: Yeah, that one. I don't remember. I mean, of course it's like similar buildup in a certain sense, but I just remember that one kind of crescendoing and, you know, well, I remember dad, like basically kind of like had somewhat moved out and then one day, you know, mom was decided she didn't want him there. And even though he had been coming and going and not really there for a while.

And so I think I just have this memory of like, I don't know, like. I don't know, [00:14:00] like bags of clothes or like, you know, things being gone. And so that, you know, as a kid, that's hard, like to just like the ambiguity is hard, right? Cause like, I think, I think as a child, what you want to know is like that things are secure, that you're safe, that, you know, things are going to not change that much in that radical of a way.

Right. And so like that, you know, the kind of like the coming and going the, you know, where's dad or, you know, why are his clothes out? That's like, that's, that was really hard. And, um, yeah, so that's what I remember of that, like beginning. Right. And then there was, I think there was an incident and then it, it led to, you know, it led to basically after that.

Um, basically, yeah, the separation for a year and a half. And then I think mom had like a restraining order and that, you know, that was kind of a tough dynamic. Cause it's like, you couldn't talk to your dad and then things like that. So yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to go on [00:15:00] and on, but that's, that's what I remember of that.

Joey: Okay. Yeah, no, I have similar memories. I, um, I think one difference, which is interesting to highlight is that. I don't think I was aware of, like, the beginning stage as much. I think it was a bit of, obviously, you were older, but I think it was a bit oblivious to it. I don't know if we were told something else was going on or what the deal was, like, if that was just, like, out working or something like that.

But I do remember very clearly, I think it was, like, a Saturday. I remember I had a baseball game. I remember our neighbors took us out of the house. to like the park and that's when there was I guess this situation where like that was dad's like official exit from the house without going into many details I don't think it was violent or anything by any means but like the police were involved to just like

Anthony: yeah it wasn't violent at home at least but I think it there was some other situation that that had kind of led to the police being there and that yeah and so also like you mentioned that point as a young kid That's like tremendous.

I, cause I remember, I, I remember looking out the window and there being like these police cars and you're like, holy [00:16:00] shit, like what, you know, like what's going on here and that, you know, that is like very confusing as a young child.

Joey: I remember that. I remember that, um, we were, yeah, we were intentionally taken from the home and we, we'd kind of grown up like around police officers and firemen and kind of looked up to them and understood that their job was like serious.

And, um, there were even some instances earlier on where we were like. We help the police with certain things. We won't go into that. Um, but, but, uh, so, so we kind of understood like

Anthony: we even had a nickname. Do you remember that?

Joey: I do remember that. Um, what was the nickname that you mentioned? People are wondering.

Anthony: was, uh, it was the Ponerellic Crime Stoppers. Cause we, there were like these two instances where we like, we caught like crimes in the act or, or people in places they shouldn't have been.

Joey: Yeah.

Anthony: And so this officer, um, said, man, you guys are the Ponerelli Crime Stoppers.

Joey: And I think they happened pretty close together, which is funny.

And then there's Yeah, it was within

Anthony: a Short window. Yeah, yeah.

Joey: At, [00:17:00] at the risk of making it sound super heroic, there was like nothing else that happened, in our life, like outside of that.

Anthony: It wasn't, it wasn't that big of, it wasn't that big of a deal, but Yeah. Yeah.

Joey: We probably thought we were Batman, but it was No, that, that was, yeah, I remember that there was like, um, we actually lived in like a pretty nice area.

It wasn't like high end area by any means. I wouldn't say that at least. But it was like, you know, middle class and there was a house across the street where there was like some sort of drug activity going on. It was kind of an anomaly for the area from what I remember. And um, and we kinda helped them.

take down that house. So yeah, pretty like we didn't do anything crazy, but we kind of fed information and reported on it. So anyway, I did not expect to go into that in this interview, but, um, yeah, so, okay. So yeah, so we had like this context of like police being serious. And then, um, yeah, we went to the park that day.

The neighbors took us. And then we came back too soon. I don't know if you remember that, but it was like, we weren't supposed to come back that soon because that's when we saw the police and the driveway and we're like, what is going on? Like we thought maybe someone was hurt or something happened. Um, and then I don't think we got many [00:18:00] answers from the neighbors.

And I remember me, like we went to another park and we're like. Trying to play. And it was just like, obviously top of mind, at least for probably you and me, maybe Gerard. Cause for context too, we've there's six kids in the family. I'm number two and Anthony's number one. So Anthony's one, I'm two. And then Gerard would be, um, right under us and the other siblings won't go into as much right now, but anyway, that, yeah.

So that day, I remember when we came home that day, um, that's when mom kind of explained what was going on. Did she explain anything to you prior to that? I'm curious.

Anthony: Yeah, she did. And, um, Yeah. So I had kind of known, I think, honestly, I had known for years that there was trouble brewing and, um, which I don't really think was a blessing.

Um, I think it was more, I think I was kind of. given too much at too young of an age, but, but yes, I knew, I knew that something was wrong for a while. And, uh, so I don't think, you know, from my perspective that day, it wasn't as shocking in terms of like the, what it was happening, but it was more shocking, like how it was happening.

Joey: I see. That makes sense. What advice for any [00:19:00] parents listening or young people who like maybe want to convey information to parents, what's your advice for like. How much they should share with their kids. And I know there's maybe two scenarios that I'm asking this. And one is like kind of an ongoing sharing of like seeking emotional support from your children, which we've talked about a lot in the show.

It has like a lot of dangerous pitfalls. Um, but maybe more specifically with the actual. Event of like a separation or a divorce like what's appropriate to share what's appropriate not like what you shouldn't you share sort of thing I'm curious if you have any principles or advice because it is tricky because like on one end if you don't share anything It leaves the kids sitting there like I have no idea what's going on.

I want some level of understanding. On the other end, if you share too much, it can be a huge burden too. Um, I felt like there was, in our instance, to no malice of mom or dad, I felt like there was maybe too much that was shared where I felt like I wish I wouldn't have known as much, but I'm sure there's other scenarios of people listening [00:20:00] where they like feel like they're even more so in the dark.

So I'm curious if what's the balance between the two, especially as it relates around the Event of like a separation or a divorce beginning.

Anthony: I think a couple of things. I think like, well, I think it's a difficult for parents because I was definitely an inquisitive kid and I wanted, you know, I like want to know why mom was upset.

I wanted to know what was going on in different situations, but that also ended up knowing those things at that age became a huge burden on me. Frankly, to some degrees, you know, still has remained to this day. So I think a couple of guidelines, I think you shouldn't share anything that isn't like age appropriate, that they're not ready to like here or to maybe not even here, maybe to deal with at that age.

You know what I mean? And so like, and I also think that to some degree, like as a parent, you can't be just confiding in your child. You know what I mean? At a young age. And I also, I think at any age, but I think particularly at a young age, like that your children shouldn't be the people you go to, to [00:21:00] discuss these things with because.

You know, a they're affected on both sides, right? So it's, it's kind of not fair to only give them one side, but also I just think it, um, you know, it gives them, it kind of puts an undue weight on their shoulders where they're already like carrying a weight, you know what I mean? And so, so I just think like, you know, there's other terms that come in here, like triangulation and things like But I think like, those are real things and like When parents do that, it definitely can make it harder on the child than it needs to be.

Joey: If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level. It makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists.

Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events In their lives are less depressed or less anxious. They're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the [00:22:00] same path that you're on, but a bit far behind you, uh, to just hear your advice and to hear your story, since you're going through things that you've been through.

And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story, and then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restored ministry.

com slash story, or just by clicking the link. In the show notes. I totally agree. Yeah. And I love what you said about like the age appropriateness. I know sometimes parents may struggle to know what's age appropriate. Um, one thing that I've heard said in different contexts is, is that you kind of let them ask questions.

You maybe give them basic, simple information. And then if they're curious, you make an opportunity for them to like ask the questions and then you kind of satisfy their curiosity. And then leave it at that. You don't share more than that. I've heard that as kind of a guideline. Is there anything you would tweak or add to

Anthony: that?

I think that's a great guideline. And I also think you have to like kind of moderate your own desire to be heard with balancing that with [00:23:00] like your child's innocence, essentially, you know what I mean? And their, their right to be protected from, you know, what is bad in this world. Um, not that you're going to perfectly insulate them, but I think when you let them know too much, too young, it has kind of this.

You know, or can have this like, I don't know if the right term is eroding, but this effect of where it, you know, it kind of matures them too quickly. And they miss out on some of these experiences and kind of like the carefreeness for lack of a better term of youth that I think is essential. And I think when you put too much in too young of a kid, they grow up too quick and then they spend some of their adulthood, you know, yearning after that.

Carefreeness of childhood that they were somewhat robbed of

Joey: couldn't agree more. And we've seen that a lot, um, with the different young people we've worked with. And it is, it's really a tragedy. And what we've seen too, is that kind of to go a little bit deeper into that whole dynamic of like triangulation or spousification where like one of the parents relies on.

Usually one [00:24:00] of the children, or maybe multiple children in a way that they shouldn't, in a way that their spouse is really supposed to provide the support, but since they're not there, the children are kind of like the next convenient option. And so they, yeah, share things that normally they wouldn't share, they shouldn't share, in an attempt to like, fill that very real need that they have.

And so I like what you said about, you know, kind of moderating your own desire to be heard, or what you said before, like you can take it to another source, which maybe isn't as convenient, like a relative, a sibling, maybe parents, a counselor, a pastor, friend, like someone like that. Um, it's not as convenient because your children are right there.

And you can like share things with them, but I think it does more damage. And I think it's often, um, what I've heard on this topic, we'll link to an episode from the awesome podcast, the place we find ourselves or Adam Young, the therapist, he goes into this a little, in a little bit more depth and he quotes some research and authors.

Um, but this whole idea, like it really can be so lethal because. The way he explains it, and you can jump in here at any point, he says basically like, yeah, mom or dad have like these real, real emotional [00:25:00] needs and then children are just, they're kind of wanting to help because they love their parents. And so they jump in and they listen and they empathize and maybe even like do things in order to help them.

But then they're, yeah, this unhealthy dynamic forms. And then over time, if that continues down that path, you, you know, have this really dysfunctional relationship, this unhealthy relationship that often leads to the. Child needing to pull away because they're like, this isn't healthy, but I don't really know what to do except like maybe leaving.

And then the parent is hurt by that. And then often there's then resentment that seeps in and then the child doesn't really want to talk to the parent so that it destroys the relationship. And that's like over, if you look at it on like a longer time horizon. So we'll link to that episode. He says it more articulately than I can, but, um.

But yeah, I thought that was like really interesting. And I think there's a lot of danger there that parents like really need to be aware of, especially if they're going through these like murky and painful waters of like separation and divorce.

Anthony: And I sympathize like with our parents and with parents in general, because like you said, it's like the people you care about the most are your [00:26:00] kids.

And so it's kind of tempting because they're in it with you, right? Like nobody else is like in the war if you will with you, right? They're in the foxhole with you So it's like very tempting I think to just like unload on them and then you probably feel like well, you know It's like they deserve to hear it.

They deserve to know it this and that but that being said I think You know, kind of, as you mentioned, you're putting your child in a very difficult situation, not only for that short amount of time, but for, in a certain sense, the rest of their life, because they're going to have to navigate this difficult relationship that essentially had too much of a burden on one person.

For years and years.

Joey: Totally. Yeah. And I like what you said, like, I think parents probably feel that burden of like, they deserve to know this, but I think what we would add is like, not all at once and not all the details.

Anthony: Right, right, exactly. And, and I think that like, listen, there's in different stages of youth, we expose kids to different things, to different responsibility, [00:27:00] right?

Like whatever your opinion of sex ed or of the birds and the bees talk is, and who should give it, take that away. But at a certain point, you deem that your child is ready for that, right? At a certain point, you deem that your child is ready to babysit, that they're ready to drive, that they're ready to have a phone, all these different things, right?

That they're ready to stay out past a certain time. And so, it's um, it's a gradual thing. It has to do with maturity with responsibility. But you don't deem it all at once. And sometimes, in these situations, I think our parents just Essentially break a lot of those barriers all at once and on a young mind on a young heart It's a lot to bear at you know, the age of 10 11 12 13 years old.

Joey: I agree I think if you want the best healthiest relationship you can have with your kids and that you need to put a lot of like Thought and prudence into what you're gonna share before you share it. I think that's another good principle of like Before you just kind of shoot from the hip and share something like really give a thought, is this something that they need to know?

And to what level do they need to know it? [00:28:00] And do they need to know it now? Maybe those are good questions.

Anthony: And is it going to be good? You know, good for them. And we're not, I think I can speak for you too, Joe, we're not advocating lying to your kids at all.

Joey: Like

Anthony: we're not supporting that. But I remember this, um, from my Christian moral principles class in college, I think it's from a book called the right and reason.

And this priest said, or I think he was quoting something. I think is. Name was Father Austin Fagothay, and he said, You always have to tell the truth, but you don't always have to tell the truth. You know, in other words, like, when you speak, you always have to say the truth, but you don't always have to speak, right?

Or you don't know what, you can just, you can just kind of say, you know what, this is not For this time.

Joey: Right. Would another version of that being like keeping things more general? Right. Exactly. Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. Um, all right. And I'm curious before we maybe go on in the timeline, how would you describe the marriage, the divorce?

Would you describe it as high conflict or low conflict? And just for everyone's context, who's listening. Uh, high conflict divorces typically involve abuse, [00:29:00] violence, maybe high degrees of dysfunction. And from the children's point of view, the problems are very overt and obvious. And so the children sometimes expect or even want a divorce or separation in those situations.

That's like high conflict where, yeah, there's a real like danger there that some needs to be done. Low conflict involves more covert. problems. Um, in these situations, children typically are like maybe blindsided by the separation of the divorce, or maybe they don't like fully see it coming. And so while they might know that mom and dad are facing some problems or some things that are wrong, uh, they typically wouldn't expect, um, a divorce, at least not like to the degree that you might think.

So I'm just curious from your perspective, maybe like separate both of those instances of when we were younger, when we were older. How would you pack those? Were they high conflict, low conflict, somewhere in between?

Anthony: I think it was kind of somewhere in between. Maybe, I don't know if there's a medium conflict, but kind of like, I think it fluctuated between those two, um, you know, certain periods of like high conflict.

I don't think violence was typically part of the [00:30:00] picture, but there was certainly a lot of like, I don't know, like I would say verbal abuse and just kind of like this overwhelming sense of like disease that kind of pervaded over it. And I think like, I think there was just like this like kind of underwhelming tension, not underwhelming isn't the right, like under, um, like kind of like under the radar tension that like you couldn't exactly quantify, but you could feel, you know, you could maybe put a name on it, but you could feel.

And I think I learned that years later. And so I think I would say, you know, for all those reasons, kind of like it fluctuated, but probably more towards high conflict, like based on the level of dysfunction.

Joey: The way I have seen it. Um, and this is just my perspective, so it's interesting, again, to see, like, even the kind of classification of low conflict versus high conflict might be dependent on the children's, like, perception, to some degree.

And I would say, like, the first separation, for me, was low conflict, because it truly came out of the blue. It blindsided me. It sounds like you were more aware of, like, it leading in that direction. Mom [00:31:00] shared things with you. She didn't with me. And so that like was blindsided me. And so that I would say was a little conflict.

Again, I knew there were some problems, but I didn't ever expect that to happen. Whereas when we were older and there was a second separation, that's when I would categorize that pretty clearly, in my opinion, from my perspective as high conflict, that's kind of, but if we were to average them out, I think like in between or kind of different waves, like you said before, that that would make a lot of sense.

Would you add anything to that?

Anthony: No, I would definitely agree that at the end, like it kind of reached its Peak, you know, at the end of the timeline we mentioned earlier, kind of, that was the worst of the worst, if you will.

Joey: Yeah, no, totally. So I'm curious, this is a kind of a big question, but like, what was life like for you?

You alluded to this already. What was life like for you during the separations, the divorce?

Anthony: Um, it was very difficult. Um, it was kind of hell if I'm being honest, you know, it was, you know, I think as the old, you know, I kind of had a, um, so like, as you know, the early separation [00:32:00] we mentioned, you know, at that age, I kind of felt from that time that I was kind of like the man of the house.

Yeah. And, and so it, that kind of like was hard, you know, obviously at that age, but then, you know, then dad came home and then it kind of was like a little bit of a relinquishing of those responsibilities or those duties. And then it kind of like came back into full. And I think like for me, I was, um.

Growing up I always wanted, like, I was like a fixer, right? I wanted everything to be okay. I was kind of an intermediary. I remember a lot of times, like, you know, kind of getting in between mom and dad and trying to, like, talk them to the other person's side. Um, so I guess, like, the image that I have to describe that time is that, like, your whole life I think it's kind of like a tapestry being built and what I, what I felt like, you know, when I was you know, 23, 24 and their, you know, their marriage was coming apart and [00:33:00] everything was ripped apart.

I felt like it was this tapestry that was my life that was built together and then, and kind of weave together. And then as they got divorced, you know, as it all happened, that it was like ripped, you know, kind of like straight down the middle and all these. different times and years that had been weaved together, um, were just kind of like ripped.

And I think that's a really, you know, a good, and, and, and with that ripping, it makes you broken and feel broken. And so, so like that whole time was like the hardest times of my life, you know, um, and kind of dealing with the fallout. And I think the hardest thing for me was wanting to, you know, when I've like talked to, um, different people about it.

You know, and in a lot of like family systems, there's a like hero child who wants to like save everybody. And I think I like identify with that a lot. And I think that it was hard for me because at that point I realized like I couldn't save everybody. And I felt like. You know, super helpless, you know, and to, [00:34:00] so it's essentially kind of these two things going on.

Like the tapestry of my life is being, or our family's life is being torn apart. And at the same time, like I couldn't do anything about it. And that was like incredibly helpless. And it was the hardest thing for me. It was like to see my siblings suffer and to feel like that. You know, I, I couldn't give them what they need at the time and that, you know, that was, that was difficult and yeah, and I think to, to another degree, kind of to take it to a different point, I think a lot of like how we reference God is, you know, through our, family of origin.

And, you know, a lot of those images we have of God is through that. And so for me, when mom and dad reconciled, I saw that as like a very, a great sign and like a fact, you know, kind of like a sign of that they were back together. And I considered it, you know, as we mentioned earlier, like a small miracle.

And then, so when that kind of fell apart, It was hard, like it, it was hard for me in my faith [00:35:00] because I was like, wait a second, like, I referenced this as like this miracle. And then, you know, it kind of ceased to be. So I, you know, it, it left me questioning God and questioning where he was and, um, you know, how he could let it.

Joey: Yeah. No, I've had similar struggles for sure. And it was almost like, without going into this too much, like each of those instances, like separation one, separation two was kind of like were difficult in their own ways and like were wounding in their own ways and brought their own, like any kind of types of brokenness, though there like was this continuum too along the way.

So that was kind of my experience of it. But man, that makes a lot of sense. I'm curious, like, it sounds like you were very self aware throughout the entire time, which is not true for everyone. I, I'm curious, kind of, was there a point when you realized, like, that all the dysfunction, the divorce, the separation were affecting you negatively, or did you maybe always know that?

Anthony: You know, I think I always knew it, kind of intuitively. I think, like, separation one, I had, I had a [00:36:00] lot of anger in me, and I knew it, you know, kind of as a, that's, you know, it was kind of a, You know, like we said the timeline earlier, but basically like 13 to 15, right? That's time of like in a man's life.

There's like, you know, introducing testosterone and all these different things. So I had a lot of, you know, kind of piss and vinegar and a lot of anger took out a lot of it, like kind of on the sports field and just in like competition, because that was like my, I think my way of regulating myself. And after you're like, yeah, I know I've played sports against you,

Joey: you're always the measured one, never the violent, but,

Anthony: um, but yeah, I think that, you know, that's kind of how it came out then.

And then, and then I think as a young, you know, kind of like, I've seen this in a lot of young people, a lot of siblings, I think like. There's a lot of fluctuation in life and a lot of growth and a lot of changing, right? Your brain doesn't stop growing until you're 25 or 26. [00:37:00] And so I think a lot of times you get to, you know, like after college and you think like everything's going to go like perfectly after that.

And then you realize like, wait, you know, I was actually talking to this with. Some mutual friends of ours recently, it's like, it's like you get to that age and you realize like, wait, you know, I have a lot of like unpacking to do from my, my childhood, my adolescence from my, you know, the family I grew up in.

And it's kind of, I think starts at that point to manifest. So, so I guess it was two folded to answer your question. Like. You know, a lot of anger as a youth and a lot of kind of like hiding from the pain. And then as an adult, um, it's a young adult kind of having that, all that trauma relived and not really being able to hide from it, you know, having to deal with that, I think I dealt then with like a lot of anxiety and a lot of just like a lot of pressure and a lot of stress.

And it just, you know, it manifested itself in a lot of different ways.

Joey: Thanks for sharing. I, uh, yeah, I know you've been through a lot, for [00:38:00] sure. I think, I think there's a special, like, for any firstborns listening, I think there's a special, like, burden, pain, and I don't know what the other words would be, that the oldest two carry, like you said.

Especially if dad left the house, which is statistically, I think that's, like, the most common occurrence. Then you step into that role. And I'd imagine whether it's a Boy or girl, they'd be kind of forced into helping around the house. And then I imagine, yeah, if like, if mom were to leave and yeah, that would kind of be a different dynamic of especially the oldest girl.

I don't know how that would play out. But anyway, that the oldest, I think definitely carries like a big, big burden and definitely saw you carry that over the years, which I appreciate, by the way. I know it's like a, it's really like a lose lose situation. Like in the military, they, when they're doing training with like, especially like special people in special operations.

And I think probably like. General like soldiers Marines and things like that They put them in these scenarios that are a little lose lose situations where their only intent is like to humble them and to teach them that sometimes like you can't win and sometimes you have to just like minimize your losses and that's the way I see the older children or any [00:39:00] child like being put into some of these like parental roles Is it's like, okay, there's some level of necessity here.

Like if that doesn't happen, then what's going to happen to the family and the kids. But at the other end, it's like, this really isn't good for them. This is, they're not meant to fill this role. They're not meant to like, especially for a long period of time, they're not meant to like be this type of person.

And so, yeah, I, um, definitely I'm sorry you had to go through all that, but, um, does that resonate with you?

Anthony: Yeah, it definitely does. And I, I appreciate your kind words, Joe. Yeah, I think it, it definitely does. Like I definitely have. You know, felt the burden of being in the firstborn. And I think, especially, you know, I think there's, you know, generally a burden being the firstborn, but in these situations, it kind of takes on a different meaning and it kind of, you know, really puts you in some of those, like almost, it feels like do or die situations.

You know what I mean? And that the definition of lose, lose. Is so fitting because like a lot of these situations when you're pitted against one or one of the parents [00:40:00] or in between both of the parents, right? Like a, the definition of a dilemma is a dilemma. It's between two things. You know, that is essentially what this is.

You're between the two things of your parents. And it's like, if you choose your, you know, the old saying, you're damned if you do, and you're damned, if you don't like, it's a bunch of those situations, just kind of like a continuous line of them. You just keep choosing and you pick one, you're damned. And you pick the other, you're damned, at least in your parents eyes.

And it's just like, it's the lose, lose. And so I think like, yeah, I think it is like, I feel very deeply when I see children in these situations and, you know, particularly the oldest, because I know that, you know, they carry a lot of weight and that a lot of like unfair things are put on them. And in a certain sense, like they're robbed of their, of what should be happening that age, like their childhood, their adolescence, their teenage years.

Where they should be, you know, not thinking of, you know, like I need to take care of all these things or take care of mom or take care of dad or take care of my [00:41:00] siblings, you know, or maybe I should go home now because my younger siblings like are missing me instead of just like being carefree and present in what they're doing.

Joey: Yeah. No, it's a totally different type of like upbringing

Anthony: that, uh, that really is.

Joey: Yeah, that it really does, like, stunt your growth in a lot of ways. There's some benefits that come from what I've seen, like some virtues that can develop, um, but I think it does stunt your growth in a lot of ways. And I experienced some of that as well.

And yeah, I remember a lot of people making the observation about, like, us, especially you and me. Um, I'd imagine that someone goes down the line even further too, but just, like, being, like, more mature for our age and that. And the one level you think of it as a compliment, but when you kind of dig into it, it's like, wait, wait, why, why are they more mature for the age?

It's like, well, actually that's not a great thing.

Anthony: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's funny you bring that up. Cause that was a common thing said about us. And at the time you think like, yeah, I'm so mature, but it's, you know, when you look at the reasoning, it's not as great.

Joey: No, totally. And I remember like getting along better with like older.

kids like even your friends or even [00:42:00] adults than I did like with kids my own age in some respect, um, because I could, I don't know if I could relate with them or yeah, there was like that. It felt like that we were kind of forced to that level. So without belaboring that too much more, um, I'm curious when it came to, yeah, just, you mentioned anxiety, you mentioned like pressure, stress, but were there any other emotional problems that you experienced through, through all that?

Anthony: How much time you got now? I'm just, I'm just good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I love her. Shout out to Sarah. Um, yeah, shout out to Sarah and Dr. Andrew. They're, they're a podcast with you is my favorite one.

Joey: They're great. And I know that they love you. They adore you, admire you.

Anthony: They're awesome. Um, so I think like.

Yeah, I think anxiety being the big one and I think, I want to be careful how I say this, but in, in those, you know, in those, in the situation of a family, like the father, like the role of the man, right, is to be the provider and the protector. And so when that, when that is [00:43:00] kind of inverted and you feel like you're protecting yourself from the protector.

That becomes an entirely different situation, and I think it's, like, mentally really hard to wrap your, wrap your head around that. And so, like, um, I think that that is a lot of, like, what I struggled with, is that, like, you know, and there's almost, like, some betrayal there, and some just questioning of, like, oh my gosh, like, like, wait a second, you know what I mean?

This person who is supposed to be protecting me is like, this is like, like, I feel like I'm having to protect people from this person and, um, and so that is like a very vulnerable thing. I think that, you know, definitely struggled a lot with anxiety and, but even I would say a lot of anxiety was kind of centered around like performance of, you know, I'm, you know, having to achieve a certain level to basically to get noticed.

Or to, to be loved and not that, not that my parents ever put me on that. I don't, I don't think that [00:44:00] was ever their intent. And I don't think that they even were, I don't think that was anywhere in their intention. I think it's just like when you're in a tough situation like this. You just think that like, Oh, like I better do something to get noticed and to, to be appreciated.

And so like, I, you know, kind of ended up in a lot of like, you know, sports or academics or things like being like, just driven to this like level of like high achievement. And then like that kind of not being that. Satisfying, you know what I mean? And it's almost like, was like, you know, like anxiety, you know, achieve the result and then it's just like onto the next thing, you know what I mean?

And so like that was, it was, and has been kind of a struggle for me and kind of to disentangle my identity from my performance, um, because those are two entirely different things and don't affect each other.

Joey: That's really good. Like what you do is not who you are. It doesn't measure your value, your worth.

Yeah, that's really good. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more [00:45:00] resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed.

To help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restored ministry. com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.

Anthony: And can I say something else about that joke?

Like, I just, uh, and to, to any, you know, I know that this is a highly listened to podcast, that there's a lot of kids, you know, and parents listening to this. And I would just say to them, you know, don't like, don't equate your worth. You know, it's, it's good to be a high achiever. It's good to do the best you can and everything.

Right. But I think it's either, it's somewhere in the wisdom literature to sound, it's like, whatever you do, then do that with all your heart. Which I, I believe wholeheartedly in, but I also think like that you, you know, you are not what you do. You are not your GPA. You are not your batting average. You are not any of those things.

Like you're loved by God [00:46:00] just because who you are, just because you are. And so like in these situations where you're, you know, your parents, your parents love seems very conditional because, you know, you're, you might be, you know, kind of a victim of triangulation. You might be in between, you know, in between those two parents.

But just know that, like, there is a love for you that is not conditional, and that's God's love, right? And that, that's not dependent on what you do, or not dependent on if you do what your parent wants you to do. That is, that is, love is free. And, um, just to, like, when you are, you know, caught in this web of kind of dependent love and people trying to buy love and things like that.

Just try to turn yourself the best you can to the, to the love of God in the way you understand that. And maybe you don't, but maybe, you know, all it really takes is just kind of just closing your eyes and just trying to turn yourself to him and just say like, God, like, I need your love. Let me feel your love.

Joey: Yeah, because if he's all powerful and unknowing, then he's going to be able to hear you in that moment and help you [00:47:00] too. So, no, I know there's a lot there and I know a lot of people do struggle in that relationship with God with me. We can go a little deeper into it in a little bit. But I, um, I think it's a really important point that I think by its very nature, uh, separation and divorce point to like the conditionality of love because it's like, Okay, you're on your wedding day, you're promising your love to be essentially unconditional.

And then, and feel free to disagree with that. And I think there's an importance between like unconditional love and unconditional maybe acceptance. Because we never like loving someone according to the kind of definition from St. Thomas Aquinas is like willing the good of the other, right? And so the question becomes like, what is that good for in the particular situation?

And how do I in my role do that? How do I will that? Love is not letting someone abuse you. That's not love. You could still love them in that moment or not. Maybe that moment's not the right word. And in that situation where like, you're maybe putting a restraining order in place or you're, um, you know, calling the police or whatever that looks like, right.

[00:48:00] That's actually might be doing what's best for them, but it's not allowing like any. Sort of behavior so I think that's kind of an important like side note when we talk about love because some people maybe think of love It's like accepting like any sort of behavior, but I think there is this like underlying message that like love is very fragile Love is very conditional love can end at any moment when you see your parents love shatter before you even if there were like decent Reasons for it for their togetherness to be like paused or separated.

Does that make sense?

Anthony: It makes total sense. Yeah. And I, I actually, I think that was kind of trying to articulate that before and I did a poor job and I think you did way better just, um, yeah, just this sense of love being kind of finite and kind of, you know, performance based, you know what I mean? Cause when you see your parents getting divorced.

Because, you know, one of them is behaving in a certain way, you start to think like, Oh, well, you know, if I am the best version of myself, am I going to essentially, you know, is somebody going to divorce me from love? You know, am I going to be [00:49:00] unlovable? And, um, and I think that's. I think all of us struggle with that to some degree, but especially kids, kids in this situation, because you're, you know, you see it crumble before your eyes.

And so it's hard, like, I know personally in my own life, you know, that, that unconditional love that I just spoke about, it has been very hard to accept God's unconditional love. Because, you know, it was not my experience of, And, um, so that's, that's a struggle. And so I think you really highlight something very true is because, you know, we experienced, we witnessed this kind of, what we understand is love or what we see is supposed to be love, like within a family, and then that ends.

or that is broken down, then we think, like, you know, we experience love as finite, or we experience it being cut off based on your, like, someone's failings, essentially. So then we are, you know, essentially, like, we feel that love is going to be taken away from us at any moment.

Joey: Yeah. And I mean, it makes it really hard to love in any relationship, including your [00:50:00] relationship with God, but also friendships, romantic relationships, like go down the whole list.

So let's go there for a little bit. Um, the relationship with God, I'm curious, kind of the particular struggles there for you, you mentioned them a little bit, but if you'd go deeper and then kind of, how did you work through that?

Anthony: Um, I'm still working through it, but you know, um, I think like trying to, you know, like my focus is trying to accept.

That unconditional love and to know that like, it's there. I didn't do anything to earn it and I can't do anything to lose it. Right? Like, I'm going to say that again. Like it's there. It's always been there for me. I didn't earn it. I can't earn it. And I, but that also means I can't lose it. And so I, I think that's like both beautiful and hard to accept for someone kind of, you know, who comes from a broken family because you're like, wait, love is conditional.

Like I always had to do things to get love, you know? So I think that is one thing. And I also think that kind of, you know, so accepting that love has been difficult. You know, one thing I've been kind of realizing is that [00:51:00] essentially in life, life is comes down to like what identity you accept. And there's this identity we all have from God, you know, from either as either like a son or a daughter and that is loved unconditionally by him.

And then there's these false identities that are, you know, pushed by the world or the devil or whoever you want to attribute it to, you know, I think it's essentially, you know, the devil through the world, but we are given these like lies about ourselves and one of, you know, one of your guests. Dr. Bob Schutz talks about this a lot, like, you know, these lies, like, kind of entrap themselves deep in our hearts, and then we kind of live out of this lie about ourselves and about our identity.

And I think, like, essentially what life comes down to is, like, which identity you choose to live out of, you know, either the true identity or the false identity or the lie. Um, I know one struggle for me has been A, to, like, accept that identity from God, and then B, to live out of that. And, um, you know, I think, you know, [00:52:00] You know, if you look at our world, you kind of just see, you know, a bunch of people struggling with identity and looking into all these different areas to try to find it and try to, you know, or in some cases craft it or change it or, you know, with surgery or whatever, what have you.

But like, essentially what we have is, you know, we have an identity from God that is not dependent on anything that we do. You know, it's just essentially like. Unconditional love. And that is the one we are all thirsting for, but in a certain sense is the hardest one to live into because it requires the most detachment from the lies that we have been told.

Yeah.

Joey: No, there's a lot there to unpack. I think it's hard to like figure that out all on your own. And I know we're going to get into kind of ways in which you've sought help, but I think it's like really important to like seek help for that from a mentor, maybe a therapist, spiritual director. Someone like that because I think that's one of the things I'm definitely no like academic when it comes to like identity So I can't say fully understand all of it But I think one truth is that your [00:53:00] identity is not something that you necessarily like create on your own It's like something that's given to you Um, you can think of a child like receiving a name from a parent, right?

Like they're literally in a very real way infusing an identity on you. And so I think like in a similar way Maybe there's some instances where we can kind of like create our own identity or like reach or discover an identity, but I think it's always in relationship with like another person that we do that.

And I think that's a really important component. Cause I think if you're just like sitting there kind of twiddling your thumbs being like, you know, I'm loved, I'm loved, I'm loved, or like whatever other kind of characteristic of your identity that you're trying to like fully like accept or embody, I think you can, it can be quite fruitless in my opinion.

If you don't like experience it on like almost like a, maybe bodily level isn't. The right term, but like in real life, tangible, tangible, not just in your head. Cause like you hear all these people in like the self help, like personal development space, you're like all into like these affirmations or like, you know, they look in the mirror and they tell themselves things and maybe there's a point to it.

I've never done all that stuff, but it's almost like

Anthony: [00:54:00] Superman pose in the bathroom,

Joey: but there's like two things to it. Like, it's like, one, is there any evidence to back up? what you're saying, that's really important, because otherwise you're like, kind of delusional and fooling yourself. Um, and two, you know, is there, like, I think it's better for someone else to say that stuff to you than you to say it to yourself.

And maybe there's not someone in your life who can say that, and so you need to, you know, kind of remind yourself of it, or maybe other people have said it, so you're reminding yourself of what they have said. So I think there can be some merit to it, but I think, yeah, I think it's really important to have that, like, other person who's kind of, you know, Somewhat infusing or imparting your identity.

That's why I'm such a big fan of like mentors. I think that's like, so, so helpful and fruitful.

Anthony: Yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's a very good point. You know, we're made for relationship and that is, that is important and it kind of plays into, you know, some of these relationships have given us these.

you know, probably a combination of truth and lies about ourselves, about our identity. And so it's kind of, I think as an adult, it's kind of like choosing the relationships and [00:55:00] also choosing to like, try to, you know, engage in the relationships, which help you to live into the true identity of yourself, you know?

And so one of those relationships would be, you know, with God and trying to say, okay, like God. You know, there was this really holy priest I know, and he used to say when he was giving people, his name was Father Bernard Geiger, he died this past year, but he used to tell people to pray this prayer, and it was very simple, and he would give it at the end of confession.

He would say, when you're doing your penance after confession, he would say, ask God, God, who are you and who am I? You know, it's a question of identity, and so, like, when you start in his, what he was saying is that, when you start to understand who God is. Then you take on a different identity yourself because that God's identity affects your identity.

And so when you understand who God is and how much he loves you, that is going to help you answer the question of, you know, God, who are you and who am I? That is going to help you answer the question of who am I.

Joey: Dang, that's good. [00:56:00] I like that. You mentioned before like watching your siblings struggle has been the hardest thing.

I'm curious what you meant by that and if there are any particular like instances where that was kind of Maybe grueling or kind of hit you in the face.

Anthony: Yeah. Um, I mean a lot. Um, but yeah, just kind of seeing how, you know, I kind of, you know, being the oldest and being in the position I thought I was, you know, I was in a, you know, kind of in a sibling plus position, maybe you would call it like I felt like in a, you know, I don't think it was healthy in a lot of ways, but I think I was in this kind of position of like a sibling parent.

And so to see, you know, all of us. struggle of you guys, I should say struggle with the divorce. That was, that was very difficult. And then also, you know, to feel that I couldn't help it, you know, I think because of how the divorce affected me so deeply, I felt that I couldn't be what I needed to be to the rest of the family and that, you know, and I felt kind of in that time, like I wasn't what I needed to be [00:57:00] for all you guys.

And that, so that was probably the hardest part of all that for me is I wish that I could like just, you know, take away all that pain and to accept that I couldn't, um, was like really, really awful, you know, and I honestly, I still struggle with that. You know, not that I should have been able to prevent it, but I just, I wish that it affected me less.

And so then I was able to help more, you know?

Joey: Yeah, no, I hear you. I definitely felt that. And it's humbling to see like your own limits, especially when you're trying to like love and help other people. And I definitely had many. situations like you described where I wish I could have done the same for you and for our siblings.

Yeah, it's just such a sucky situation to go through. And for the parents too, just to make sure I'm not like, yeah, we, we don't like, we have a heart for our parents for sure. We love them dearly. And yeah, even if there's struggles or even if there's things there that, you know, make the relationships challenging at times, every relationship has their challenges certainly.

But um, yeah, it's, it's just a hard [00:58:00] thing for anyone and all of us to go through. So, but yeah, but I think in a particular way, the children. Cause so often they get ignored or the pain is not even like acknowledged, um, very rarely understood and given like the space that it deserves, which is what we're trying to do here.

But yeah, that, uh, I definitely can relate to it, but yeah. Any thoughts?

Anthony: Yeah, no, I've often thought that like in a divorce, particularly. That to some degree, like, you know, like there's a saying, you know, essentially like you were referencing earlier with the lose, lose, but in a divorce, like, I think that nobody really wins in a divorce, but just to a certain degree, the parents get some change and sometimes it is good change.

I, I do believe in the case of our parents, it was good change. In fact, for both of them, like, that's my personal perspective. Um, but. I think particularly, even though that is the case, I just think it's rare that it's better for the kids. Like, I think it's kind of the kids are particularly in a lose lose situation.

And, um, so I think that, that's [00:59:00] like very difficult as a child. It's cause, you know, we mentioned a lot of these situations where you're kind of a rock in a hard place. And that leads to this, like, I think one of the worst feelings you can feel as a human is helplessness, you know, and I think it leads to a lot of helplessness as a child.

Joey: I'd agree. I'd agree with that. Yeah. You don't quite know what to do with it. I want to get into like that, maybe happier, the better part of the story. But before we do, I'm curious if there were anything you wanted to add in terms of like struggles with bad habits or relationship struggles, especially. in romantic relationships.

I know there's probably a ton that we can say here, but yeah, just curious if there's anything you want to highlight.

Anthony: Yeah. Um, I, I definitely think, you know, I, um, you know, I've struggled with a lot of things. Um, but you know, I mentioned some of those before. Um, I think, you know, loss is one thing I struggle with because I, I think like in a lot of these situations.

You know, we're looking for escape and, you know, lust offers the allure of that escape. Um, but it's, you know, essentially it's at its core, it's a [01:00:00] lie and it leaves you, you know, and the interesting thing, I saw a quote from St. Josemaría Escriva and he said, you know, after essentially like, You know, essentially after like giving into lust or sensual pleasure, like what loneliness after?

And it's so true that it's like, if you think of your life and you think of a time that you gave into lust or use it as like a medication, like try to think of a time when you felt happier after. And the truth is you won't because you weren't. And so I think that, you know, that has been something I think that a lot of people in general struggle with, but a lot of people in these situations.

But I would just encourage anyone struggling with that, that just know it's not, it's not your identity and it's also not, you know, it's not, um, it's not a cure and it's not helping you. It's just like making you more lonely. And I, so that's what I would say to like, um, the question of struggles and then to the question of like relationships.

I, I do think that it has definitely affected me a lot in, um, my romantic relationships and, you know, I'm, I'm 35, I'm unmarried and I think that's, [01:01:00] It's definitely part of the equation. Um, I think when you, you know, for me, like seeing, like seeing all that we have that we've mentioned in this podcast, it's, it's hard to like really kind of like, or it has been hard for me to really want to like commit to love and commit to opening yourself so much to another person that, um, you show them your flaws and you show them what's broken in you, um, because you also have seen.

You know the the negative effects of that and so so that has been very a struggle for me I'm trying i'm still trying to work through it still trying to essentially, you know Help god or let god help me through it. Um, and so that's definitely been a struggle and I think it is for You know, I see that trend in a lot of people who've been in similar situations.

Joey: No, thanks for sharing all that. And yeah, just one note on the whole last thing. I, uh, this, you guys have probably heard me talk about this in the show before, but Dr. Patrick Carnes is an expert on sexual compulsion, addiction, and He found that 89 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction [01:02:00] come from a broken family with what he called a disengaged family.

89 percent almost 90%, which is so wild. So I think it is such a common thing on that note. We do have a, I just want to give a plug for, we do have a podcast series on that topic. It's called healing sexual brokenness. We'll link to that in the show notes. Definitely encourage you guys. So check it out if you're in any of the podcast apps, if you go to our show and you just search healing, sexual brokenness, you'll find that there too.

But, um, it's such a big problem. I think all of us at some level or the majority of us have dealt with it. And so, um, yeah, thanks for bringing that up kind of switching gears a little bit and getting toward the end of our show. I'm curious, kind of when did you decide to ask for help and what did that look like?

Anthony: It took a lot of different forms. Um, you know, I, I've done different things in my life, like spiritual direction. Um, I've done some counseling. I've done some. trauma therapy. And then I've done other things that are kind of, you know, less traditional. Um, I did, so one thing that has helped me a lot, actually, maybe the most has been something called functional [01:03:00] neurology.

Essentially it's a treatment for like brain injuries. And so a lot of people who struggle with anxiety, even in a lot of addictions. Or excuse me, well, it's certainly addiction, but a lot of definitions for certain, you know, mental illnesses or certain things carries the designation that, oh, this is often, this is, this often ensues after a head injury.

So, so something I kind of in a just synopsis, I had a lot of head injuries, a lot of concussions. And, um, I, and I tried a lot through sports. Yeah, through sports, car accidents, things like that. And I tried a lot of different things. And, um, I, you know, through a friend, I ended up trying this thing called functional neurology, which is 0%, like has anything to do with counseling.

It's just essentially. Physical therapy for your brain. And I found that like emotionally and like physically for me, that has had the greatest effect in terms of like, you know, helping me improve, you know, how I felt and how I [01:04:00] behaved and things like that. And so like I would, I would encourage anybody, um, who, you know, there's providers all across America, but I think oftentimes we take all this.

And we think, okay, if I go in a room and I sit with somebody and I talk about it, it will change. And, and certain therapy is great. And I've had a lot of great experiences with therapy. I've also had a lot of terrible experiences with therapy. And I think a lot of people would echo that. So I think like there is this element of, you know, that therapy can fix everything.

In our, in our time, you know, like you hear all these commercials for better health and all these things. And where I think it's like very important, it's not the only thing. And so like, we are, you know, we are mind, body and soul. And, you know, the mind is, is just one of those. So, you know, you can use the body and fix the body and try to, or I should say, try to heal the body.

And so that has been something that is like, really helped me. Physical activity has really helped me, you know, working out is kind of a great way [01:05:00] to get unstuck. Doing some cardio, things like that are really good to kind of, you know, help yourself move along in life and get past some of these things that have become hurdles in your life, in my opinion.

I also, you know, I dealt with a really good trauma therapist, Margaret Vasquez. So I know you've had on the show and, um, you know, she does trauma therapy and that, that was, that was very helpful for me. So things like that, um, I think are good things. And I also think this. You know, it's, it's not a one size fits all for everybody, everybody, you know, just because something worked for someone else, it won't necessarily work for you.

And I think that it's important to kind of, you know, get to know yourself, you know, your struggles and kind of, um, in a patient way, you know, work on improving yourself. And essentially, I think that's what, you know, brings peace. And it's important to not have the attitude of like, I'm going to fix myself.

But I think it's the attitude of I'm going to open myself up so that God can heal [01:06:00] me. Cause you're, you're not a, you're not a machine to be fixed. You're a person to be loved.

Joey: Totally. And yeah, I think that that's a really good distinction about like how we're not machines. I. I can't say I fully understand it, but I've heard it said that, like, we don't actually solve our problems, we outgrow them.

And I, again, I don't totally, fully understand that, but, um, but I think there's a lot of truth to it, how, you know, when, yeah, whether it's, like, even a physical injury or something, um, we maybe don't go in and, like, fix the muscle tissue necessarily, maybe there's some instances where you do that, but you kind of, like, Build up the muscle around it and try to get like your body in a healthier space to where like you're better and healthier.

And that kind of like resolves the issue, but it's not necessarily like, yeah, just tighten this bolt and we're all done. That's not how we work. So I don't know. Yeah. I have to give that more thought, but I heard that said, and I think there's some truth to it. I'm curious how, um. If there are any other like tools or tactics, books, podcasts, anything else, events that you have made use of that have been maybe the most helpful in your own healing [01:07:00] journey of becoming like a better, stronger you.

Anthony: Yeah, a lot of things. Um, one thing I'm trying to think, um, I, I really liked Dr. Jordan Peterson. I think he has a lot of good things to say. So he has a lot of, you know, videos on YouTube shorts. You mentioned Sarah Swofford. Um, she's, she's kind of helped me a lot. And she has, uh, she has a bunch, I feel like her talks are pretty wide ranging, but she has a book called emotional virtue.

Which is good. So those are just a few resources that that are helpful. I also think there's a um, I'm kind of fascinated by the connect, you know, the mind body connection, you know, like we're we're not just our mind We're not just our body. We're the Unity and duality as it, you know, they say in philosophy.

And so I think it's interesting how, you know, you can like the body really affects, you know, the mind and the soul and vice versa. And so like, like for instance, one thing, you know, I, you know, I had a very, uh, hard winter. I was in an accident and, um, with my sister [01:08:00] who, and we were both hurt pretty badly.

And so. I was, you know, not feeling the greatest at all. And this one thing I found by this doctor, by Dr. Andrew Huberman, his name is, he's a neuroscientist from, from Stanford. He has this tip, you know, he kind of has his morning routine out there, but he has this tip of like getting into morning sunlight within half an hour of when you wake up every day.

And so for Lent last year, I did that every day. And it really helped like how I felt. Um, and it kind of was what I needed at that time. So I think looking for little things and trying little things like that that are going to help you is like, is really important. And I also think like one thing that I've noticed in my life is something might help for a while and then it might stop helping.

And that doesn't mean you're not doing it right. It just, you might've done all you can in that area. So don't just kind of like try to do it better or more perfect. If you've kind of exhausted it, just you, it could mean that it's time to try something else.

Joey: Totally. No, that's great advice. And, um, I love that connection you're making between like the [01:09:00] body and your emotions.

Cause on so many levels, like, yeah, your, your emotions like happen inside your body. And so there's certainly a connection there. It's not just like this random thing that happens like in your mind or some imaginary place. It's like very much so like a bodily based thing, especially anxiety. And, um, you certainly, you can feel it in your chest and your throat.

Like it's certainly like, there's certainly a connection there. I've found similar benefits. It seems like the kind of healthier and the more fit I get. Get the more calm and peaceful I am. And so I think there's something to be said about that, which I know it's can be hard for people to get started there, but if you can figure out some sort form of exercise that you really enjoy, that you kind of look forward to doing that could help you.

And it doesn't need to be complex, it can be simple. Um, that can really help you get in. You know, much better head space and if you even feel better emotionally, not just like physically, if you like me come from a broken family, you've probably experienced a lot of difficult emotions and it's easy to deal with them in unhealthy ways.

But one healthy habit that's helped me working out consistently and eating how my body was made to be fed. It keeps my buddy healthy. And the [01:10:00] endorphins helped me feel happier and better navigate tough emotions. But I know it's not easy to start exercising or to be more consistent with it. You might be thinking, I don't know what I'm doing.

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Anthony: Yeah, and here, you know, that's a great point, Joe. And like, and a really good, honestly, one of the best things and a really good place to [01:11:00] start is something that most people can do.

And it's just something that's very regulating. And Margaret Vespa has taught me this is just taking a long walk and just kind of, you know, just letting your thoughts. Um, wander and just like process what's going on within your life. And the act of walking, you know, you're using your whole body, you're using essentially kind of all your senses.

You are, it's very integrating for your body, and there's been so many times in the last couple years. Where I feel like very kind of frustrated or aggravated, very emotional. And I go for a long walk and I, and I'm talking like usually like half an hour to like an hour and by the end of it, I come home and I feel in a certain sense, like I worked out a lot of what was bothering me.

And, um, and I think it's because, you know, because you're moving, you're using your whole body and it's also giving your mind a chance to essentially like kind of run through or walk through everything that's going on.

Joey: That's really good. A similar process from my understanding of like [01:12:00] neurobiology happens when we sleep.

Like our brains kind of like process things and like file them away. Um, kind of like if you've seen the movie inside out, like that's essentially what happens when we sleep. Um, like our memories are being like filed away and long term memory and things like that. I don't understand all the ins and outs of the science, but that I I've heard.

Yeah. It's been helpful for me to walking and kind of like moving your body. Cause I think, especially today, like in years past, like we were so active as like, as humans, now we're just so sedimentary, like we just sit around computers and. And I think it's having like really detrimental effects on so many levels.

So I love that. I love what you said. And no, I think that just like this whole body based thing is like kind of that, that whole quote, um, get out, you know, like mind over matter. You've heard people say mind over matter. I've heard people say like body over mind. Where like, if you kind of like get outside of your mind and into your body, like there's something really good there that it's actually helpful in healing.

And that's like something, especially in moments where I've been the most anxious or even like sad or depressed, like that is incredibly helpful in healing. The other thing I was going to mention there too, is just [01:13:00] how I've been learning this more and more, whether it's through from guys like Huberman or others, um, like Dr.

Peter Attia, or I was recently watching this, um, series on Disney plus called Limitless. It's with Chris Hemsworth and. He has all these hacks, um, health experts, um, like Dr. Peter Atiyah, um, on the show kind of talking about like health and wellbeing. And one of the things I've learned from them is like this sleep is literally the foundation of health.

Like it's literally the foundation of all health. Like the other things are so sleep is like everything. More or less, and then you have like nutrition, and then you, which includes like drinking water, and eating like clean healthy foods, and then you have exercise. So like exercise is like super super helpful, and I'm a big proponent of it, but like we need to make sure we're getting those other two things right, especially sleep.

So if there's only one thing you can get right right now, if you're listening to this and you're like, I'm overwhelmed, I can't do everything, try to get your sleep down. And that's going to help you. And you might need to exercise or like healthy eating to do that, which is, it's all, it all works together.

But I think there's some to be said like of that being like the focal point. Cause once you get that right, [01:14:00] your body and your brain can actually like heal itself, and then you can get into this better spot emotionally, and then you'll be able to, you know, maybe even further hone in like your diet, like what you're eating and the quality of what you're eating.

And then from there, if you get those things dialed in and you add exercise, that's like the golden combo. So that's just wanted to throw that out. Cause it's been helpful for me in case that's helpful for anyone listening.

Anthony: Yeah. And I would just add to that, that it's kind of, um, like a snowball effect, or it has kind of an avalanche effect that once you start doing a little bit in one area, you know, it, um, it produces the dopamine that your body is looking for.

And, you know, essentially you want more dopamine, you go back to it and you get healthier and healthier. And so I think that is, it's like a very healthy process. So, so like sometimes all it just takes is just going to the gym once or going on a walk or going on a run or just. playing a sport, just doing something to move your body and then just trying to stack those days on top of each other.

And eventually you're going to feel a lot healthier. Like no one, have you ever had anybody heard anybody say like, man, I really wish I didn't go to the gym today. Like, no, you [01:15:00] had like, you haven't. And, and I think, and there's a reason for that.

Joey: That's really good. Let's talk a little bit about therapy. So I know you have some thoughts and.

opinions on therapy. So I wanted to make sure we spent a little bit of time talking about that. So you mentioned that you found help through therapy, especially trauma therapy in particular, but, um, yeah, what, what's maybe some of the nuance and any guidance for anyone listening on this topic as well?

Anthony: Um, I, yeah, so I, I have a lot to say about this, but I'll try to keep it short.

I think a couple of things, I think one important thing is fit, um, with you and a therapist. I think another thing is. It's not kind of that the goal of therapy is to help your life and it's not to like center your life around the therapy Which is something I've kind of struggled with and then I also think that I think that essentially a good therapist is someone who's gonna Help you and is going to like refuse to like make decisions for you Or refuse to kind of, for lack of a better term, like kind of boss you around too much.

You know, um, I think [01:16:00] that especially as an adult, like you, you want someone who's going to empower you more to like, to, to live your own life and live it all. So I've, I've had, honestly, I've had kind of like a, almost like a 50, 50 spread of good experiences. and bad experiences. So some people have been very helpful, some people have been almost, like, hurtful.

But I think it's important to talk to somebody. So try it. If that person doesn't work, well, you can try another person. You know what I mean? Or try a different type of therapist or a different type of person to talk to. I also think, like, you know, having other people who you're not paying to talk to is helpful, and who you trust, and who know you.

Because I think a lot of times the struggle for therapists is like, you know, They, they've talked to you a couple of times. They don't really know you. And, you know, it's important to have a balance of that and people who know you and have seen you, you know, grow up or, or know your life and know who you are.

Um, and sometimes they can better advise you on what you need to do. But I, and I'm not, like, I don't mean to say this to dissuade therapy, but I. I [01:17:00] mean to say that it's one tool in, in a, you know, a whole tool belt of different tools. And so I think sometimes there's too much emphasis given on it. Um, and, and in particular, the, you know, there's this therapy, cognitive behavior therapy, which is essentially like the idea that if you think differently, you change your life.

And that is true. If you think differently, you do change your life. However, most of us think a certain way for a reason, and it's not just a matter, or as simple always as just changing our thoughts. So sometimes we have to change our behavior. And actually, like, so I've heard it said that the easiest way to change behavior is to change identity.

And so that goes back to what we were saying earlier, like, living into, like, your true identity, as, you know, a child of God, and as someone who's loved unconditionally, can really help you change your behavior. More than anything.

Joey: That's really good. You made me think of something Dr. Greg Bitaro said in a recent episode.

He was talking about how just kind of this whole day of like talk therapy is not enough. And I forget [01:18:00] exactly what, what words he put to that. But he did talk about like the role of our subconscious and the like kind of lame person understanding that I have of it is that the way that we think, the way that we act, the way that we feel is a byproduct of like what's in our subconscious.

So, like, that's essentially controlling our life, and there's a quote from, uh, this Swiss psychologist that we talked about in that episode who said something along the lines of, like, Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will rule your life, and you will call it fate. And so, basically, the idea is that, like, that Like you're saying, I don't think, like, changing the way you think isn't as easy as it sounds.

That's the whole point I'm making, because what happens in life is, like, we go through these experiences, we kind of sustain these wounds, and they get lodged in our subconscious, like, below our conscious minds, the thing that we're, like, actively thinking about. And then they, those things, kind of like the mass below the tip of an iceberg, are there influencing the way, again, we think, the way we feel, the way we act.

And so, if we are just [01:19:00] staying on the level of, like, our, you know, trying to think differently on a conscious level, and we never go, kind of, into that mucky water of, like, the subconscious, and, like, figure out, like, well, why do we Think and feel that way. Or, you know, is there like trauma there? That's literally affecting us on a physiological level.

That's maybe preventing us from thinking and feeling in a different way. Then we're always going to be stuck in it. That's, that's my perspective. And so John Paul II actually in love and responsibility to everyone familiar, John Paul II, um, wrote this book when he was, uh, like a priest, a professor called love and responsibility on like relationships and sexual, like morality, things like that.

And he. Um, in the end of that book, Dr. Bitaro was teaching me that he had like this whole part about the subconscious because around that time when he was writing it, Sigmund Freud was very popular. And so Freud like really emphasized like the role of the subconscious. So JP2 actually took that and he kind of emphasized how, no, like we need to kind of take what's in the subconscious out, objectivize it, meaning like we need to inspect it and look at it and understand it in order to [01:20:00] be able to act, think, and feel differently.

Putting some of my own words to that. But, um, but I thought that was interesting. I haven't read Love and Responsibility cover to cover. I've read parts of it, but do you recall that from reading it? And, uh, any further thoughts? I

Anthony: actually, I don't recall that, but it sounds, it sounds very interesting. I want to go back and read it now.

Joey: Yeah. And I don't know the pages or else I would have said it, but I think it's towards the end and I was talking to Jackie about it and it was, um, found. So you can do that if you'd like. So, um, yeah, any final thoughts on that? And then the other question I had for you was just, yeah, I guess after kind of going through this process of like healing and growth, if, uh, yeah, how your life might look differently now, just in order to encourage people to push through the pain and the discomfort that often hits you in the face when you're trying to heal and to grow and to.

Be better, stronger. So I'm just curious if you have, um, yeah, just if you would kind of contrast how life was and how it is now, though, we're always a work in progress.

Anthony: We love comfort to a large degree. Right. And part of us, you know, is like our brain's [01:21:00] job is to keep us safe.

Yeah.

Anthony: And so a lot of times that our brain tells us is, you know, don't do anything scary or different or change or, you know, or change anything.

And that is the temptation for those of us. who have really been, you know, in, in these difficult situations because, you know, we, you know, change is scary and change has, you know, been very hard in our lives. But I would just encourage you to, you know, A, to go at your own pace, B, to seek ways to heal yourself because, or seek ways to, you know, dispose yourself to healing because, you know, we were made, we were made to be healed.

You know, I, I think a lot of our, Like our intuition is that you know, this is like I can be healed here I need to be healed here and I heard one of my favorite priests father James serby is a really good podcast called holiness for the working day And he said that you know in jesus time he did he performed a lot of healing [01:22:00] Because you know back then they didn't have a lot of physical healing.

He did a lot of physical healing He said but now we're pretty good at physical healing. So what we really need is, you know, spiritual healing, emotional healing and, and Jesus want, he wants to heal us, right? Like he wants that for us. He wants us, you know, he said in the gospel of John, I came that you might have life and have it abundantly.

You know, he didn't say I came that you might suffer and, you know, stumble through life and then, you know, die. He wants us to have abundant life. So I think like having the courage to see past your circumstances and to try to, um, Try to, you know, get better is important. I would also say that, you know, healing, and this is something I've had to learn the hard way.

I, I thought healing was kind of a destination and you get there and you're done and you kind of check the box and you put the file away and then you live the rest of your life.

Hmm.

Anthony: Um, . But I've learned that healing is a process and you know, you're gonna be on that journey the rest of your life. [01:23:00] But I think it is, you know, I think it is a process that is worth, worth endeavoring in.

Joey: Good stuff. Two final questions. If you could speak honestly to mom and dad, I'm curious, like, what would you say? And to whatever degree you're comfortable talking about that?

Anthony: Oh, wow. Best for last. Um, um, wow. Okay. So yeah, I think that, you know, I heard this quote recently and it's really stuck with me and it's that we're mad at our parents because their parents messed them up and then they messed us up, you know what I mean?

And it, and it's kind of like, I think that's like a pretty revealing quote. Because I know, you know, you think very often, you know, and now you're a father, so maybe you can speak more to this, but you think very often, if I were a parent, I'd do it this way, if I were a parent, I'd do it this way, if I were a parent, like when I'm a parent, I'm going to be perfect, or I'm not going to do all these things that my parents have done to mess me up.

But then, you know, as you get older in life, you realize that that's not really the reality and that a lot of, you know, our parents. You know, I would say to mom and dad, I know [01:24:00] they both went through a lot and I think that that is um, That that was very difficult for them And and I think that a lot of like what we've been through or they put us through as a result of that So, you know in in a large sense It's not their fault.

You know what I mean? So I would just tell them both that I love them and I'm thankful for them and for the love They have given me because they they have given me a lot of things and and they have loved me both of them And so like I would say thank you for that. And I think in the end, I hope that they heal as well as me You know,

I love that.

Joey: Well, thank you for coming on for going so long. I'm sorry this went so long, but you have a lot of wisdom that I wanted to make sure everyone was able to benefit from. And yeah, thank you so much for, um, just sharing so vulnerably and again, imparting all that wisdom. I just want to give you the final word.

You kind of went through some of this already, but I just want to give you one last chance. What advice or encouragement would you offer to maybe the younger you who's listening right now?

Anthony: I would just say to my younger self that I would say that, you know, you're, you're going to go through some difficult [01:25:00] things.

It's going to be very hard, but, you know, you're going to make it and it's going to be okay. I think that, you know, we've highlighted a lot of things that, you know, have gone wrong or have been hard, but we also maybe haven't mentioned, you know, that we're both here and we're both doing okay. And, you know, we're making it, you know, and things aren't perfect, nor are we perfect, but we're making it.

And so, so I would just encourage, um, you know, that younger self to not define itself by the lies. You know, that seep in from the world or from different moons. And I would also tell that younger self that, you know, to seek healing and to seek the truth and, you know, it's okay, it's okay to struggle. Like, I think it's okay to struggle and that.

You know, God, you know, one of the scripture verses that I hold to is God works all things to good for those who love him. And, um, and one of my favorite books, St. Augustine says, even their sins, you know, so God is using everything for our good, even our mistakes. And [01:26:00] so, you know, if essentially I think what life comes down to is just abandoning ourselves to God and letting him kind of scoop us up and essentially take us.

Take us where we need to go. And so, so I don't, I would also say, you know, that in, in different things that I'm proposing is like, I do not have it all figured out. I am very much, to be honest, I almost didn't even want to come on this podcast because I, I felt like a little bit of a hypocrite. I'm like, you know, I don't have this all figured out.

How can I go on and talk about my life or tell other people like this is how you should do it. But I, I guess what I would say. Say is that like, you know, maybe the importance is not like in the destination, but it's more like in the struggle to get there in the journey to get there. And I think that's what, in that way, we help other people, we help ourselves.

And I think God sees that struggle in us. And he is pleased with that.

Joey: A few final thoughts due to the time limit and the nature of this podcast. We didn't really get a chance to talk about the good things [01:27:00] about our family. And there's plenty to say. Uh, one thing I would say is all of us siblings are actually pretty close to each other.

Uh, we say as close as our lives will allow. We have good relationships and we love our siblings, Anthony and I, I know. I can speak for him saying that we really love our siblings. And personally, they're just a huge motivation for me for doing this podcast and the work that we do at restored. And although there have been struggles over the years with our parents, we really love our parents and we appreciate all that they've sacrificed for us.

Uh, for example, my mom has always just fought really hard for us to be physically healthy from a young age, even when it, when it wasn't. And then my dad always worked really hard for us to provide. And he really gave us a great example of a hard work ethic, which I totally see in all of my siblings. And that's just to mention a few definitely grateful for my parents.

And although in our story has some sad and heavy parts, there's a lot of good to it as well. If you want to contact Anthony, just see the show notes for his email. He's open to that. And lastly, we really hope that this conversation acted as somewhat of an experiment or maybe a template for how you might talk with your siblings about your parents [01:28:00] divorce or family dysfunction.

You could even send this episode to your sibling or siblings and invite them to listen and perhaps discuss it with you next time you guys see each other. And if you don't have siblings, you could always do this with a close friend, or maybe if you have a good relationship with one or both of your parents, you could do it with them as well.

Just an idea that we wanted to throw out to you. That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or follow an Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever podcast app you use. Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help.

And it only takes a few seconds. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. That also helps listeners find the podcast. And we definitely appreciate that feedback. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life, and we're here to help.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Restored 12/4/24 Restored 12/4/24

#137: You’re Not Doomed to Get Divorced | Samantha

If you come from a divorced family, research says you’re more likely to get divorced. But does that mean you’re doomed to that fate? My guest today says a resounding no.

If you come from a divorced family, research says you’re more likely to get divorced. But does that mean you’re doomed to that fate? My guest today says a resounding no.

She and her husband, also a child of divorce, have built a 24-year-long happy marriage with 3 children. Her message for you? You can do the same. In this episode, we discuss:

How she’s overcome her fear of getting divorced and how marriage has actually been healing for her.
How she felt her father’s absence as a young person and how she ultimately forgave him.
How to become more confident and resilient or gritty

If you’re afraid of getting divorced, you want to forgive your parents, or you want to become tougher, this episode is for you.

Get the Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

Reframe Your Brain: The User Interface for Happiness and Success (The Scott Adams Success Series)

Contact Samantha: samantha.hall328@icloud.com

The Hiding Place: The Triumphant True Story of Corrie Ten Boom

Links & Resources

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

===

Samantha: [00:00:00] My dad, um, he was an alcoholic.

Joey: Do you remember any particular situation or instance where you're like, Oh, wow. All my friends maybe have moms and dads who live together. And I don't.

Samantha: Some knowledge is just too heavy for children to just be able to bear.

Joey: What was most helpful for you when it came to healing and to growing into a better, more virtuous woman?

Samantha: I knew that there was a problem because everything that happened, I always thought was because of me, something that I did. You know, some, some fault that I had when you're in pain and you're suffering, it's not like you're saying, well, I'm going to make this poor choice now. Right? Like you're really just trying to survive something that feels really overwhelming to you.

Joey: I think so many of us feel powerless because we can't fix our families

Samantha: and we would get into a fight and I would just. I'm going to get a divorce. We're just going to get a divorce. And one day he said to me, Sam, I know that you get really angry, but it hurts me so much when you say that, because I never want to get divorced from you.

Like I'm never giving up on you.

Joey: Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a [00:01:00] divorce or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Samantha.

She's a devoted wife, mother, and joyful advocate for God, family, and community with over 20 years in communications and a commitment to volunteer work in religious education and youth ministry. Her healing journey from the unintended wounds of her parents divorce began when she heard a quote that said, The final battle between the Lord and the reign of Satan will be about marriage.

And the family. Recently, she completed coursework in human and spiritual integration and trauma informed care. Currently, she serves in public education where she witnesses firsthand the mental health struggles of students and works to find solutions that address the root cause of those problems, learning how to heal the wounds caused by the breakdown of family systems.

If you come from a divorce family, research says that you're more likely to get divorced, perhaps even two to three times more likely. But does that mean that you're doomed to that fate? My [00:02:00] guest today says no. She and her husband, also a child of divorce, have built a 25 year long happy marriage with three children.

Her message to you? You can do the same. In this episode, we discuss how she's overcome her fear of getting divorced herself, how marriage has actually been healing for her, how she felt her father's absence as a young person, how she ultimately forgave him. Really beautiful story. And then the resolution that all of us from divorced or broken families can experience.

And it doesn't involve fixing your parents marriage or solving all the brokenness in your family. And finally, she offers some tips on becoming more confident and resilient or gritty. And so if you're afraid of maybe repeating your parents mistakes. Painting what you saw in their marriage. You want to forgive your parents and you want to become just tougher, stronger, more confident person.

This episode is for you. And with that, here's the conversation. Samantha, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you here.

Samantha: Thank you so much, Joey. I'm so happy to be here today. Thank you.

Joey: I remember when we initially met, I was just so impressed with you and the wisdom you have and the way that you articulate that.

So I know this is just going to be more of that. So I'm really excited to dive into your story. Starting out. I'm [00:03:00] curious. What was life like at home in the years and months before your parents split?

Samantha: So my parents divorced when I was two. So I don't really, I think all of your memories kind of come alive after that two period.

So what my memory really was of my mom. You know, heading the ship on everything. I did not have siblings. So it really was just kind of me and my mom, my mom was the only child. So my grandmother was very central in our life. And so in so many ways where I feel that the family is really meant to be kind of that, you know, the balance of the mom and the dad, right.

It was kind of in our family, my mom and my grandmother, right. Um, and so I feel blessed that I was able to have those. Influences and that love, but also now, you know, looking at that all these years later, I can see that there was some stability that was missing just from, you know, not having my father around and being able to have that influence in my life.

Joey: Totally makes sense. Since you were so young, it makes sense that you have no memory of [00:04:00] what life was like before it. Have you heard stories or been told of kind of the. I don't know, level of dysfunction and what was going on prior to the separation.

Samantha: So it's really interesting. I don't know how many of your listeners have gone through this type of experience, but my dad, um, he was an alcoholic.

And so my mom, obviously when she married him, did not know that probably like anybody else. You know, he was drinking it, you know, it's a socially acceptable thing to do. But when they had me, um, they were in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, and they moved back to Pennsylvania. And so my dad was a professor at Millersville college here in Pennsylvania and just through kind of different things, I guess there were some maybe red flags that came up.

And so my mom, I don't know if she must've gotten suspicious one day, but she went to his car and she opened up the back of his trunk and there were just. All these empty alcohol bottles there. So the reality of the situation, I think hit her pretty hard. And I will say, I mean, this would have been, I was born in [00:05:00] 1969.

So I still think it was a time where really they didn't know what to do with alcoholism. Right. So what do you do with that in the family? You know, how do you maybe get counseling for that? You know? Um, and so my mom's really first response, she went into kind of that flea mode, um, just to just. Get out of the situation.

My grandfather came to get her. So when you ask what were my experiences like, it really was a lot of my mom trying to share the best of the situation and in time, give me a little bit more of the truth, but I will say my mom was always just so gracious and always giving my dad the opportunity to reach out and to, you know, to connect with me.

But what was so strange is because we had such a, you know, he was. Absent a lot in the very early part of my life that when he would tell me these stories, it was just so hard to connect to it because it's almost like he was reading them out of a book. I didn't feel that they were me. So it was like I was hearing them, but I had no connection to them, especially with being, you know, so young, you just don't really remember those, [00:06:00] but you have your photos, you look back at that and you know, you try to weave together that story.

But I think that's really hard when it happens at that age and you just don't have those common memories to draw from.

Joey: Yeah, no, that is really hard. And I totally get that kind of like almost looking at it as if it were another person that that story hearing that. So I understand that entirely. Um, so you were two when that happened, if you're comfortable sharing, how old are you now?

Samantha: So I'm 55 now. And I did want to just sort of say, just kind of hold that question for a second, because I've had a long time over my life to sort of, you know, kind of look back and look at things. And I think that today, you know, just the message that I really want to get across. To anybody that's listening is I had zero idea of anything when I was in my young adult phase, I didn't know what having a family meant.

I didn't know how to get to having a family. I didn't know anything. And through just, I think the restoration of my life through. The journey that I've [00:07:00] taken, you know, I'm sitting at a place where I've been married for 24 years. We have three children, nothing is perfect, but we are tremendously happy. And somehow some way, even though we had, cause my husband comes from divorce as well.

We had no model to really show us. The love that we had for one another just prevailed above all things, and we figured it out together. And that is really the beautiful message that can be of marriage is that it might not be perfect, but as long as you're committed to loving the other person and elevating them, you will figure it out.

And that's really just what I want to really be able to share with people today is just that hope that I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't come from a perfect background. There's all sorts of, you know, things that happened that were traumatic in my growing up, but you can figure it out.

Joey: Yeah, such a hopeful message and that's such a perfect tone for this interview because we need to hear that I think even so often, you know, we try to go deep into kind of the brokenness to help people understand it, put words to it, which we've heard and found is really healing, [00:08:00] but I think there is a danger of maybe getting stuck just in the darkness.

And so you saying that I think is so good and so hopeful. So I'm really excited to go deeper into that. I'm curious. So since you were two when your parents split, when did you kind of become aware that You know, things were not the way that they maybe ought to be within a family. Do you remember any particular situation or instance where you're like, Oh, wow.

All my friends maybe have moms and dads who live together and I don't.

Samantha: Yes, I do. It was probably in second grade. I went to Catholic school at the time. And so. You know, my mom would drive me up and drop me off to school. And, you know, I would get invited to different people's parties. And I would say, I don't know what year that was.

Cause I'm really bad with sort of the math of it, but let's say that was probably the mid seventies or so there still were a lot of intact families that, you know, um, that may have been when divorce started to kind of creep in and creep up starting at that time. But. You know, in my growing up, a lot of families were intact.

And so I started to look around and realize like, okay, well, so this is different than [00:09:00] what my friends are doing. And I think another pivotal time when I really recognized it, cause you see it at school, but you see it in moments, right? You see it at a party or you see it, you know, mom and dad going to, you know, a football game or something like that, but where it really, where family life really made an impression on me.

And I realized what was. Missing is we had a place that my grandmother, she had a friend that lived in this place. And so across the street, they had a family and I would go over and play with them all the time. And so I would stay over the night there cause they had a daughter that was my age. So, you know, you do the sleepover things and every Sunday they would get up and they would go to mass together and they would cook breakfast together.

And I just. Really saw what having a two parent household would look like. And I have no idea what kind of, you know, family they had because you don't often know that, you know, at that moment, but just that was when I had really that immersion of saying, Oh gosh, you know, this looks really different than what family life at my house looks like.

Joey: Fascinating. And did you then ask your mom questions or was it just [00:10:00] kind of this thing that was there that you didn't really think too much about?

Samantha: I would love to be honest and say that I did ask questions, but I think, and I'm just going to share this because I feel that this was a very real experience for me.

I think that when you're a child, you pick up on things. And I think that you don't necessarily always want to burden your parents with things. Right. So asking her why it looked different or why, you know, my dad wasn't around, wasn't something that I wanted to, even at that very young age, I didn't want to burden her with that.

And I will say just sort of as part of my story, and we'll probably get into this later, but my mom did remarry after that. So, you know, I did have sort of that other experience, but yeah, I don't think I asked her because I just think I didn't really want to burden her with. You know, maybe what I knew would be a hurtful topic to her.

Joey: I think so many people feel the same. And I know I felt that in a lot of ways, especially if there's been a lot of like drama and a lot of tension around the divorce. We so often just like stuff away our own brokenness, our own hurt. Because we just don't want to, like you said, rock the [00:11:00] boat or add more onto it.

And I definitely understand that. I think, especially as we grow older, it can certainly be like a barrier to healing. And so was there, we're going to get into this a little bit later, but I'm just kind of, if you tease it ahead, was there any moment where you kind of came to the realization like, no, I actually need to, maybe not with mom, but I need to talk about this.

I need to address this a little bit.

Samantha: Yes. Many decades later when, um, so there was something that a priest had shared with me. And again, I know, you know, our audience, we have different people in different places, but I thought this was really helpful. And he had quoted, um, one of the early verses from Genesis in the garden when Eve ate the apple.

Right. And so when Eve eats the apple, she's confronted with God saying, what did you do? And I always heard that in a condemning tone. What did you do? And it never occurred to me that a father who should be the image of the child's first image of what God is like, that there could be a compassionate tone to that.

So instead of shaming [00:12:00] the person for what did you do, this is your fault. It could be, Oh my goodness, I love you so much. What did you do? How can I help you? And that was really the first moment where I knew that there was a problem in the way that I was processing and thinking about things, because everything that happened, I always thought was because of me, something that I did.

You know, some, some fault that I had. So, uh, yeah, then I went through a period of time of trying to really unpack that and to relearn hearing that voice in the compassionate way that the father means for all of us, which is really from a point of love and mercy and wanting to just, you know, help us get back to our whole self again.

Joey: Wow. That feeling of kind of responsibility or feeling like it's your fault is a really common thing we hear with the young people that we work with. I remember a dad sharing a story with me. He and his wife were separating. It was actually the day that he was going to leave the home and it was just really difficult for him.

He didn't want the separation, didn't want the divorce. His son, um, was really [00:13:00] broken up by it too. And he remembers before he was leaving the house, um, trying to find his son, his son was hiding in the bathroom. And so he goes into the bathroom. And, um, the Boy looks at him and says, Dad, is this my fault?

And thankfully the dad like just wrapped him in his arms and said, no, no, of course it's not, it's not your fault. Like this is between your mother and I, but there's something so fascinating about that. I think like, especially as children, we, we do shoulder a lot like that. I'm curious if you have any thoughts or insight into that.

Like, why do we go down that path? And is there anything that you think young people listening right now need to know so that they can kind of unburden themselves? From that responsibility. Yeah, that's

Samantha: a good question. I would say being on the other side of the experience of having children and just seeing how my children have reacted to me and to my husband, we were actually just talking about this in our family.

We had the opportunity to go back and revisit some of our childhood friends. My, my children did. And one of the things that really was impressed upon my heart is children have this very limited time of innocence. And I mean, pure innocence where [00:14:00] everything in the world is good. And I think that. They intuitively know when something is off with their family and their love is just so pure and they just really seek to love their parents so much that I think that they pick up on that in some way, shape or form.

And I think that what happens is. They begin to just model that not really understanding that that isn't their burden to carry that is really for the parents to be able to carry whatever it is that they're going through. But so often some of those things, you know, you talk about dysfunction in the family or you talk about, I mean, in my situation, it wasn't really dysfunction.

It was just. Absence. It was total absence. And then it was, you know, two women trying to, you know, my mother, my grandmother trying to, you know, sort of fill in the blanks with everything. And, you know, again, I loved them, right. I wanted to help them. So I think that's where it comes. I think, and I think that's why.

You know, when we go on and we talk about children and any type of abuse of them, or just even [00:15:00] being in this situation, I know that it's not intentionally abusive, but they are so pure and they are so just good in that period of time when they're young, that it's something that just really easily can get exploited.

Joey: Yeah, no, it makes so much sense. And one of the ways I've heard some people talk about it is, you know, imagine like, like there's nothing you could do to make your parents marriage like amazing as a child. Like, like you don't have control over that. So in a similar way, there's really nothing you can do to destroy it.

Another analogy that we've often used, um, is imagine that you're in a place in the country, maybe like Kansas, where there's a lot of tornadoes. And you're building a home. And let's say that the builder, like, knows that there's tornadoes, and they need to make the home stronger to withstand those tornadoes, make it tornado proof.

Um, but they don't really take that into account, build the home not tornado proof. And then the storms come, and they rip up the house, it falls apart. The way we think of it is that the children are the storm and the marriage is the home. And so if the home is poorly built and they knew that maybe these things were coming, is it the [00:16:00] storm's fault or is it the builder's fault?

And not to cast blame on parents, but I think that's been helpful for some of the young people that we lead realizing like, okay, yeah, like, yes, children do bring stress into your life. It's not intentional. It's not something they. Cause, but it's just, it's a lot of responsibility to raise children. I know that now I have two, um, but it's never their fault if I, you know, were to get angry and, you know, say something that I shouldn't say or do something I shouldn't do.

Or, you know, if I allow that, um, stress that comes from, you know, just all the things that come along with being a parent impact our marriage. So I think there's something there that is instructive that our young people have found helpful.

Samantha: Yeah, I want to how I arrived at that thought process. I want to share a quick story with you.

I don't know if you had ever heard of Corey ten balloon, but she was a survivor of the holocaust. And she wrote a book that I can't now remember, but it was basically just about her experience going through the holocaust and you know how horrific that was. And You know, her family, um, they were able to, you know, hide people and help people, but the story that I'm going to give you, isn't that I just wanted to give you context for [00:17:00] it.

So she, she was in the, you know, she was sitting, you know, with all the, the aunts and the, you know, her mom and, you know, just sort of a very female, I wouldn't say this was well during world war two. So she was sitting with all of these women and there was a man that had come in and I can't remember if it was, you know, a relative or something like that, but evidently this man had a lot of facial hair.

And so it was something that she had not. She had not really seen before and I don't really understand the connection of it, but basically she was trying to ask her mom some questions about, you know, him maybe being a man or going through puberty or something like that, basically sort of a topic that was at that time, a little taboo and the mom deflected from it.

And so she immediately knew that there was. Something there, but she didn't really know what the, what was because everybody was kind of evading it. Um, and so she was on a train ride with her father and she, you know, loved her father so much. And she wanted to ask him about this particular thing. And so he said to her, he said, Corey.

I need you to go pick [00:18:00] up my suitcase. You know, they're in the train, they have like the luggage place. So she goes over to pick up the suitcase and she's, and he had all these watchmaking supplies in it. So it was very, very heavy. And she said, but dad, it's too heavy for me to carry. And he said, no, no, Corey, come on.

Just try to bring that suitcase to me. So of course, as any young child would want to do, tries to tug that suitcase over to him. And she said, father, it's just too heavy for me to carry. And he said, Corey. And so too, it is with some knowledge, some knowledge is just too heavy for children to just be able to bear.

And she was content with that answer. He didn't tell her this thing, but he told her that in time. When she was at a time, you know, that she was able to know about that, that he would let her know. And that was enough for her. And I think one of the mistakes we make with children sometimes is we think of them as being little adults and we pour a lot onto them that they just neurologically do not have the ability to be able to understand.

And it's too much for them. So that's where that [00:19:00] knowledge comes from is. And I tell that with my kids, when they were young, they would ask me a question. I would be like, you know, Elizabeth, that's a suitcase. That's too heavy for you right now. We'll talk about that, you know, one day later.

Joey: I love that analogy.

Wow. So good. And I think so appropriate. And I think instructive even for parents listening right now, how I think there is that temptation, especially if someone listening right now is going through a divorce, maybe they just learned about it or they just chose to go down that path. And they might feel like their child deserves to know.

And I think there is something that, yeah, maybe your child deserves to know, but they don't deserve to know maybe right now. And they don't deserve to know All the details, anything you would add to that for a parent listening right now, who's maybe struggling with that balance between like oversharing and not sharing enough.

Samantha: I think it is really okay to let your children know that there, you know, there is information that in time you will let them know, but for now they have to trust you and be satisfied with the I think that one of the mistakes I've made, um, is trying to avoid some of those topics with my, you know, with my kids, when we've had difficult [00:20:00] situations come up and they, they will trust you, they will know that you, you know, when you say the time is right, that they will let you know.

So it's almost as if you're answering the question without giving them that, but they feel that satisfaction that they've been heard because, you know, just in terms of our anthropology as human beings, right, all human beings want to be known. They want to be heard, they want to be seen and they want to be valued.

And so we just have to do that with our children in a way that is appropriate for the information that we're sharing with them.

Joey: I love that. And, um, no, I think that's a really helpful guiding principle that where you can make decisions and you might not get it perfect, but I think it's better to maybe Aaron, the side of caution, because we've heard just so many stories of young people who were burdened with like the details of infidelity and affairs, and just like a list of.

Maybe sexual sins and things like that, that like they were just so young. They didn't need to hear all that. And so I think that can do so much more harm than good. So I love your advice. I, uh, we just looked at the book, uh, the hiding place. Does that sound right? Okay. Yes. Yeah. I'm excited to look into that.

Like what a beautiful lesson I'm [00:21:00] going back to kind of earlier on. I'm curious, um, would you describe your parents divorce as high conflict or low conflict? And I could define those for our audience. If that's helpful. Uh, the high conflict would basically be maybe there's abuse or violence or high degrees of dysfunction and.

The problems were very overt. And from the child's point of view, obviously you wouldn't have been able to make this determination then, but they maybe even expected a divorce or knew that something needed to change. Low conflict, meaning that the problems were more covert, a little more hidden doesn't mean there's not problems there, but they're a little bit more again, hidden.

The children are typically blindsided by a divorce, even if they might have some inkling or idea that mom and dad are struggling. So I'm curious. Yeah. And from what you've been told since you were two. High conflict or low

Samantha: conflict. I think it was low conflict. I think that my mom did, it could have been high if some of the alcoholism and the things that went along with that, you know, were disclosed to me.

And I think even how my mom navigated that, you know, post marriage after divorce of just trying to be the sole provider, you know, for, you know, for her child. [00:22:00] But, um, I never knew that we, you know, it was really only when I got to be a little bit older that I knew that maybe, you know, from a financial standpoint, we didn't have as much as maybe what other kids had, you know, just never even really occurred to me when my dad wasn't around that, you know, this whole idea of how you might have shared custody or visits.

I mean, when I was. Two, they divorced and I did not see him again until I was 12. Um, so it was a really, really long time. So he was very, very absent. So I say that it was no conflict just because he was absent. Um, and again, I have forgiven him. He went through all of his own, you know, alcoholism ran in his family, all sorts of things, but it was just, um, he was very absent.

And I think that my mom did. A really good job of trying to provide the stability of not letting me know things that probably, you know, as a mother now I'm like, Oh my goodness, how did she navigate all of that? You know what I mean? She had to do everything by herself. So I, yeah, so I think it was, I think it was low conflict, but I think it could have been the other, but for whatever reason, you know, he was away and she just was able to kind [00:23:00] of keep the knowledge to me at an age that was, you know, appropriate.

Joey: I'm curious, a little bit of a sidetrack here, were you afraid of maybe becoming alcoholic yourself? Yes. Were you afraid of getting divorced? Like, yeah, talk about that.

Samantha: Yeah. So, um, when I really understood, because when my mom shared that with me, I think I was probably Maybe in my team. So I understood it, but I didn't really understand it.

And then there was sort of, you know, all these confusing messages of, you know, I think I got really scared when I heard about, you know, could it be genetic? And I really, I can't offer any of what the truth is about any of all that. I don't know enough about the study of alcoholism and, you know, kind of what they're seeing with that.

But what I can share is that for my father, I think that there were very real wounds. That he was numbing himself out to. And so for him, it was very much, you know, not based in a genetic disposition for it, but really just, you know, some generational wounds that, that he was dealing with. Um, and so for me, [00:24:00] when I finally felt free of that worry was when I realized that it wasn't just this.

thing that was lurking that could come and get me. Right. Because, you know, I, when I was younger, I drank alcohol. And so it was sort of always like, Oh my gosh, is this, you know, am I going to become an alcoholic? What's going to happen with this? And then, you know, you get to have teenagers, right. And you start to remember what you were doing as a teenager.

And then the fear really hits. Sue, but what I really was able to lift myself to was that for my dad, at least it was definitely very much just a wounding and a way that he had to cope with it. And he did. Um, he was able, I think when he passed away, I want to say he was 30 years sober. So he had, you know, found recovery in all of the ways, and that was a very big part of his story.

And, and he would probably be the first one if he were still with us to say that, you know, that those were definitely. I don't want to say poor choices. They were made because when you're in pain and you're suffering, it's not like you're saying, well, I'm going to make this poor choice now, right? Like you're really [00:25:00] just trying to survive something that feels really overwhelming to you.

Um, and that's really what trauma is, is just, you know, when something. Affects your ability to cope with something normally, that's when that trauma comes in and then the level of trauma and how it can impact you, the severity of it really has to do with how well that trauma is handled. And so I just want to go back to my earlier point about knowledge and what you talk about with your kids and when it's appropriate, you know, just again, being able to share things with them in an age appropriate way, I think is so important because if you are going through that traumatic experience, right, you want to just be able to.

Not ignore the thing that's happening, because if you ignore it, that trauma, even though it exists, it's going to be exacerbated. But if you try to help them walk through it in all the ways that you can, I think that you'll mitigate the, you know, the effects of that trauma.

Joey: I love that. No, that's great advice.

And what you said made me think of an earlier interview we did with Jay Stringer, who's a therapist, and he explained essentially what you explained. He [00:26:00] said that. Whenever we go through trauma, there's this experience of fragmentation where we just, we feel very broken and maybe even at like rock bottom, but emotionally we're in like a very difficult spot.

And that pushes us into numbing. We use some sort of behavior. For some people, it's alcohol. Other people, it's sex. Other people, it's maybe drugs or, you know, shopping or anything. It could be anything under the sun. And then after that, we have this experience of like isolation because we feel so empty. We feel a lot of shame about our behavior that we just kind of, Sit in our loneliness.

We don't bring it to other people. We don't open up about it. And then that puts us in a really difficult spot, which can then lead to more fragmentation, just kind of go around the circle. So that really resonated with me when I heard him say that, teach that. And that seemed to describe my life. And it sounds like in some way that describes, you know, what your dad was going through.

Cause like you said, it's not like you said, you know, wake up one day and be like, today's the day I'm going to do this horrible thing. That's going to impact my life really poorly and hurt everyone I love.

Samantha: I think exactly that's right. I think that shame is overwhelming. And I think that's why he was absent.

I mean, he told me [00:27:00] later in his life that he felt that, you know, and I often wonder, was he saying this is just a rationalization for him being absent, but I do believe that it was true. And that was, you know, I think it was better for me to stay away so that I didn't, because maybe that could have taken us into that high conflict situation, right?

If he had been around and, you know, there was just sort of all this disruption in our relationship, I really didn't have that. So that was, I do think maybe he knew that he was, Staying away from it, but I do think there was a big part of the shame of just not knowing how to, you know, address that or deal with that, um, or anything, but I am so happy to share that we just had such a beautiful forgiveness before he passed away a lot before he passed away.

And he was able to meet my children, um, which was, you know, amazing. So he was their pop pop and they loved him a lot. And it's just, again, it's another one of those things where the story as it. started didn't look so good, but it had a really beautiful, peaceful ending with, you know, with just being able to have that forgiveness and that healing before he passed away.

Joey: So good. And I do [00:28:00] want to shift to that in a second before we get there. A couple more questions. I'm curious. Um, was there a moment, you talked about this a little bit already, but there was there a moment when you maybe realized that the dysfunction, the absence, the divorce, uh, was impacting you negatively?

Like, was there a time where you kind of woke up to the fact that like, Oh, this is like causing me pain or to struggle in this way or that way.

Samantha: So I think definitely going back to that story of Genesis and knowing that I was blaming myself for a lot of things. And then I think a second piece of that actually was within our marriage and not anything that my husband was doing, but I came from a very female centric household.

I didn't know how to let my husband lead. I had never witnessed that before. So there was a lot in our early days of marriage of, you know, me being in the marriage, the way that, you know, what I saw in my family, which was my, my mom and my grandmother. And so really just trying to take the lead on that.

And so just spiritually, and I think just the way that we are made, I mean, men are. [00:29:00] I believe, you know, when they become fathers and when they become husbands, they are really meant to be that protector, you know, of their wives and to cherish them and to adore them. But I, and again, going back to parents being that first image of God, I didn't have that.

So I didn't know what it was like to be cherished, right? I just knew how to survive and how to cope with things. And so it really, I often tell him that I feel that even though I did not have that level of image of God. From my father, when I met my husband and he was able to provide that to me in a more, you know, husband and wife type of relationship, it really was something that began to turn in me just in terms of being able to have that level of trust that somebody was going to be there for me no matter what.

And I will say as a child, when you're growing up in a situation, one of the most important things is that level of protection that parents give to you. And so just having my husband be that protector of me was. was just something that really switched things around. So I [00:30:00] think that was sort of another piece of it.

When I was thought to myself, okay, I have some wrong beliefs on this thing. I don't really know what marriage is. I don't really know what I'm supposed to do in this situation. I only know what I experienced in my family. And he had similar situations with his mom and dad. And so he didn't really know, but I just sort of go back to the most.

Simple definition that was shared with me about love. And that is to will the good of another. And I will say that in our marriage, that was always, even though we got a lot of things wrong, we always willed the good of the other to the point where, you know, if we had an argument about something or we didn't.

Agree on something that we could come to each other because we wanted the best for that other person. So lots of mistakes getting there, but that was kind of the common denominator, which helped us work through it.

Joey: I love that. No, I could relate on that. We definitely have not had a perfect marriage, but it's, it's beautiful to see how you can still love in the midst of the struggle and then even.

You know, begin to kind of level up for lack of a better term and like get to a better spot where there's more peace and you [00:31:00] work together more as a team and it's, it's totally possible. It's beautiful when you get there. And there will always be, I think, difficult seasons within marriage, but the good can far away the bad.

That's, that's been my experience too. Before we get to kind of the healing and the happier part of the story where I really want to go deep with you. Um, I'm curious. Yeah. What maybe emotional problems? Bad habits, relationship struggles, especially in romantic relationships. Did you experience that you would maybe connect with the breakdown of your family?

Samantha: So I think one thing that I really struggled with, and I don't even know that I have an answer for it, but there was a lot of self sabotage for me. Um, and I still don't really know what that was. I don't know. And I still struggle with it. Um, and I think it really comes from Avoidance of things that are difficult.

Um, maybe growing up and things being difficult, maybe one way of coping was avoiding. And so kind of that earlier question that I ever asked my mom, you know, why my dad wasn't there, what happened, you know, that was an avoidance thing. I'm not going to burden her with that. So. Somehow, I think I learned that and the struggle [00:32:00] with the avoidance is, and I've been thinking about this a lot, I don't know where this message comes from, maybe the culture, but kind of alluding to, you know, when you have problems in marriage or problems in anything, it just feels, you know, bad, but.

When you avoid things, it's almost like you're trying to live completely for comfort because you don't want to feel that discomfort. That's why you avoid things, right? And so where in my life did I get a message that life was supposed to be comfortable? Because I mean, I could look at my faith and say, okay, when we look at, you know, what we read about in the Bible, we look at Jesus, certainly not comfortable, but even if I'm not looking at that and we look at the world, right, what is comfortable about the world, I mean, it's an extremely uncomfortable place, right?

So. That avoidance I think is what leads to self sabotage. And it's really not, again, it's not waking up one day and saying, jeez, I wonder how I can self sabotage my life today. It really comes from, I don't want to deal with that thing. That's hard and things should be comfortable. And so I'm just not going to deal with [00:33:00] it.

And then you kind of don't have that long term understanding that. Eventually it's going to come back, right? It's going to come back and it's going to burble up and then you're going to have to deal with like even a harder thing. So I think that when you talk about, you know, sort of emotions and problems that I've experienced, it really has been, and I did this a lot with my friendships early when things would get really hard.

I would kind of just go very inward because I just. Didn't want to deal with it. I just, yeah, I didn't want to. So it's avoidance, which leads to this feeling of, you know, this understanding of thinking that things should be comfortable and then doing everything to sort of, you know, avoid all those things, which is where I think for me, self sabotage came from.

So I don't know if that's something that's ever come up with your listeners before, but I would say that's been a big thing for me to struggle through.

Joey: If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story.

Reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level. It makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown [00:34:00] that people who write about emotionally significant events In their lives are less depressed or less anxious.

They're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the same path that you're on, but a bit far behind you, uh, to just hear your advice and to hear your story, since you're going through things that you've been through. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry.

com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restored ministry. com slash story, or just by clicking the link. In the show notes, I heard the story of one woman who she had been engaged three times and she broke off the engagement three times.

And these are not like bad guys. These were like good men from what she said. And I don't remember the details and each of the engagements. But basically, she was just terrified that they were going to leave her that, you know, It was gonna be a repeat of her parents divorce. And so I think self sabotage, especially in relationships, like you're saying, is something I [00:35:00] think that's so paramount in our audience.

But I wanted to push in maybe a little bit more on a struggle that were that's being articulated by a lot of young people today. And that is like, in order to not avoid, you need a level of grit, you need some grittiness, you need to be able to like, be able, like you said, to push into the discomfort. I'm curious, how did you learn that?

Like, how can someone more importantly listening right now become tougher, like have thicker skin, become more gritty? Because from what I've seen, yeah, like you said, the world is kind of an unforgiving place, and it's really important that we develop that skill or virtue, whatever you want to call it, because otherwise I think we'll feel powerless.

And so I think that's something again that a lot of young people are hungry for today. But how do you develop that? How did you develop that?

Samantha: So I think you have to reframe your thoughts. And that was kind of one thing that I had to do was, you know, so much of it was trying to avoid problems, but really where the growth is, is encountering the problem and working through it, you know, how they have that same only way, the only way through is through or, you know, something to [00:36:00] that end.

And I, I do think that's true, but I think it really comes from an understanding of who we are in our identity. And so this is kind of where I go back to sort of our anthropology for, you know, for what reason do we exist? And so, you know, in the way that I think about it, you know, we exist. To be able to, you know, again, from my faith belief, be that extension of Jesus in the world that we live in.

And so being able to know, love and serve him, but even if you're not particularly religious, just that idea of being able to know other people and be able to hear them and be able to meet them where they are on their journey. There are so many people that I talk with that I just. Just really enjoy hearing their stories and even if their stories are wildly different from mine, but just being able to find that point of connection with each other and being able to kind of work those things through.

So I think, you know, again, knowing why we're created, what purpose it is that we're supposed to serve. Um, and if I would go even deeper than that, you know, knowing why we're created the, the, [00:37:00] the, just the most important aspect of all of that is. You know, the family, because that's where we come from. And so everything stems from the family and we're not, you know, you had given a couple analogies to, you know, just, you know, having a family or, you know, the storms or how you were talking about it with regard to children and parents and knowledge and so forth.

But another really good one that I heard was we do not have any ability of the hand that we're given. If it's a poker analogy, right? We have no control over the cards that we're going to get. But we do have control of how we're going to play those cards. And so that is what I think is kind of, when we go back to what our purpose is, you know, nothing's going to be perfect.

And comparison is the thief of joy. It's so easy to look at this person over here and that person, and they have this and they have that, and everything's easy for them because they had money or whatever, but that's not where we are. We're in our situations and we are all called in a period of time. To serve the way that we can serve and to give what we can give and to live in the way that we can, [00:38:00] because that's the purpose that we're made for.

So we can't look at what others are doing and we can't live in the past, right? We can't live in lament of the things that we didn't have, and we can't live in the future for the things that we're afraid may or may not happen. The only moment that we can live in is this present moment and to be able to just.

Be humans and to flourish in this moment. And again, can't control that hand that we were dealt, but we absolutely. And I think that's where the resilience is, is that knowledge of saying, yeah, I could look at these things. I mean, there are deeper things in my story, other things in my story that are, you know, very harmful that are very sad, but also I can't change that, but I can change who I am today and, you know, how we have a family and how we have a marriage.

And I think that the common denominator to it is. That's seeking, right? You might not get it and you might make a hundred mistakes before you get to the learning, but the learning always comes through the mistakes. And that's how I feel that you are able to develop that resilience is to have that knowledge that even though this is [00:39:00] uncomfortable, the greatest growth is always through the greatest suffering.

Joey: So good. You made me think of, I was kind of asking myself the question, like, how have I become grittier, more resilient, tougher? Not that I'm at any sort of pinnacle by any means, I'm trying to improve on that metric all the time. But, um, I think one of the things has been just like doing hard things intentionally, whether that's like through exercise or any sort of like, Kind of self control, right?

Any sort of mortification I know is a word that was sometimes thrown around of like kind of denying yourself small things. I think that helped a lot. The other thing, um, kind of maybe the opposite side of comparison being like admiration, like looking at people who maybe who have gone through harder things than I've gone through, and then seeing like in spite of that, they still push on.

And they accomplish amazing things and beautiful things in their lives. And so there's something inspiring about that that I think has been motivating for me. But I love what you said too, just about how I think so many of us feel powerless because we can't fix our families. And we almost are tempted to [00:40:00] think that that's the resolution of the problem that we're facing.

And what I hear you saying and what I would also propose is that that's actually not the resolution. That's not our job. It would be really great if we can maybe help and influence that situation, help to grow those relationships and do our part of forgiveness and all the things that we've discussed and we'll discuss.

But I think all we can do is, like you said, play the hand that we've been dealt and figure out how we can then go out and build strong families, healthy families, healthy relationships. And whether we do that directly, You know, in our own marriages and families or indirectly by helping the people around us have like healthy marriages and families to me, that seems to be the resolutions, your thoughts on that,

Samantha: I would completely agree with you.

And I think that, you know, one of the things that I have heard. And I don't know if it's, you know, I mean, I can test it out in my own theory, and that is you can't be simultaneously angry and thankful at the same time. And that's why there's always such a focus on starting with gratitude because those two emotions can exist with each other and where you get [00:41:00] gratitude.

Is not when you go inward, right? That's where the enemy wants us is to be isolated by ourselves, but it's when you go outward and you choose to help that other person, whatever that way is. I mean, for me, I was sharing with somebody yesterday that I'm an assertively friendly person. I genuinely love to meet with people.

I'm encouraging, you know, I will find, you know, something good to say about everybody, just because I genuinely want to be able to connect with that other person. And so whether it's just a kind word, whether it's a. Smile, whether it's, you know, being, you know, more formal and volunteering for something, getting yourself out of your own world and helping somebody and somebody else's world is pivotal because it does build that heart of gratitude and you can't be angry and you can't be a victim.

You can't be any of those things when you are in that state of gratitude. So I totally agree with you with that. And I do want to go back to one thing that you said, which I think is just. Beautiful. Because one thing that I have been learning about that probably is a little bit more of a secular kind of a solution is the ability to reframe our thoughts.

There's a [00:42:00] really good book by the guy that is the author of the Doonesbury Scott Adams, I think it is. Okay. Yeah. Um, and so it's called reframe my brain or something like that. And I've actually shared some of this with my kids, because I think it's a tangible thing for them to be able to understand. And you did a beautiful thing.

You took the concept of comparison and you reframed that to admiration, right? So instead of looking at somebody and saying what I don't have, look at somebody else and seeing what they do have and admiring them. For what it is that they have persevered through, right. And being able to get that from him, it's beautiful.

Just being able to reframe those thoughts. And another one really has to do with comfort, right? You know, why are we thinking that this world is comfortable? Let's get into the thought of, you know, suffering builds through it. Right. And I'm not saying that that's what it is, but just make it okay. That that's.

Suffering, which we don't want to do that. There is goodness that comes from that. And so reframing is a really good technique for being able to do that. And I do highly recommend this book. I think it's a really just a good, a simple thing to be able to do to, you know, look at things that maybe you might be [00:43:00] struggling with and be able to reframe those thoughts.

Joey: Okay. I love that. We'll link to that in the show notes. Thank you for mentioning that. That's super powerful. I've heard good things about his content. And so thank you for mentioning that. Um, you mentioned assertiveness. Um, you seem to be like a very confident woman, a confident person. And so I'm curious, were you always that way?

And if not, how did you develop that confidence?

Samantha: Um, no, I was not. And I still don't think that I am. I think that what I'm more comfortable with is kind of that thing that you said, where I'm going to take steps every day to do that thing that's uncomfortable because it just builds who you are as a person.

But I think that where I came out of that and I got a little bit more of that assertive friendliness is when I was. really young. I was very shy and just really hard to walk into situations. And I don't have like this great theological or philosophical solution to it. I will just tell you that when I was 15 and a half, I lived in Orlando and I went to go work at SeaWorld.

And I only went to go work there versus other theme parks because they hired at the youngest, right? They hired at 15 and a half, whereas most other jobs were 16. And I really wanted to get a job. [00:44:00] But I was exposed to so many different cultures, you know, people coming in, I worked in a little ice cream shop.

And so there were people that were coming in, you know, you had a lot of people that were coming in from Brazil or just different countries. And so it really put me in an environment. And this kind of goes back to what you said about doing the hard things. I don't think if I had not done that, I don't think that I would have learned that skill of being friendly and, you know, putting myself out there with other people, but you have to expose yourself to those things to be able to grow those.

skills. And so I really did it because I wanted a paycheck, there wasn't any virtuous reason for it, but it was a wonderful thing that came through. And, you know, it still is a struggle. I'm not always the most comfortable when I'm in a big group, but I just find that there's always somebody, I think that a common denominator for most everybody is you can just talk about your family and.

You know, not everybody has a great family situation, but somebody is usually proud of something, whether it's a brother, a sister, or even a pet, right? There's always something that even if you have differences, people are generally proud of some aspect of, you know, their [00:45:00] family or their family life or something of that nature.

So that's really how I walked through that is doing exactly what you said, just exposing myself to hard things. I

Joey: love that. It's funny. I've noticed with people who come across as like very confident, which in my opinion, you do, which it's such a beautiful virtue and quality, they often think like, well, I'm not that confident or not.

So there's something like there's humility in it, which I think is really good. And then the other thing you said, I thought, well, that was really good was just how, like, in order to become confident, you kind of need like evidence to back up your confidence. And that's what I hear you saying. When you went through hard things, you kind of put your neck out there.

And I think that's maybe where a lot of people get stuck. I remember. I was, you know, especially in my early teen years, more shy. I remember just being terrified by the idea of getting up in front of a room and, you know, speaking and any of that. And, you know, now it's kind of like laughable. It's such a joke to do that in front of like hundreds of people now and soon like thousands of people.

So, uh, so it's definitely a blessing, but, but I think like you just got to start, you got to kind of do the things that feel a little bit outside of your comfort zone, a little bit out. maybe stretching you a bit. And once you do enough [00:46:00] of those, you have this whole, like, kind of stack of evidence that you can say, Oh, actually I just did this thing and I did that thing.

And now I'm, I'm still standing. I'm here. And I, maybe I could do this next thing. That's a little bit more of a challenge and I can kind of keep, you can keep like leveling up. So I think that's what probably I would say to my younger self if I were to go back and be like, you know, feeling insecure and unconfident, being like, this is how you do it.

This is somewhat of the path. It's not a maybe straight. path up the mountain, but, um, by taking those little steps and having that evidence to fall back on, I think is, is really good. That helped me in sports too, thinking through like even sports psychologists talk about having like a few just memories where maybe you were nervous or there was a big moment, but there was a lot at stake and you came through, you know, it doesn't even need to be like earth shattering, but something that you can kind of like anchor on to so that when you're in a difficult moment or a challenging moment, you can then say, well.

I got through that. I probably get through this too.

Samantha: I would agree with that. And I would say on the other side of it, because again, when you have teenagers for children, you walk through the awkwardness that is high school, right? [00:47:00] It's just that place where you just are like, so first of it is you're trying to figure out what your identity is, right?

So part of it is just who am I? And then the other part of it is just this, you know, extreme self consciousness that everybody is Sort of looking at you and judging you. And you know, the thing that I always tell my kids, which I know probably doesn't resonate with them, but just as much as you're thinking, everybody's looking at you, they're thinking that you're looking at them and to go back to the, you know, the concept of doing things is that I always go, how much is this going to matter to me in a week?

You know. Two months, six months, and generally anything that would prevent me from doing something, if I really look at it, it's probably not going to be anything more than a momentary, you know, discomfort, not something that I will remember really in the longterm. And so that's another thing that helps me push past, you know, that barrier that you might have of, I don't want to do it, but one other, just.

Suggestion I would give to your listeners. Um, one thing that I heard and I practice and I think it's true, but you were talking about doing the hard things like the self discipline, right? The thing that they [00:48:00] say is one of the greatest determinants of being able to push forward in your day and to develop that self discipline.

Is that first heroic moment of your day to get up in the morning, to build that schedule, right? Not to lay there and, Oh gosh, like I'll just get up. I'll scroll on my phone. Like when you say that you want to get up, you get up at that time every day, because at that moment you are conquering from that sleep state, getting into your conscious state, that first.

Right. Feeling of like, ah, I don't want to, you're conquering it the first thing in the day. And it just this kind of builds your momentum throughout the day because you did it and it's hard.

Joey: Oh, it is. But no, I love that. And I, one thing that's been helpful for me in the last, like probably six months is like, yeah, having that first part of the day, like very structured and, you know, obviously like a routine people talk about having more routines, but for me, it's going to the gym and having people that are kind of holding me accountable.

Like if I don't show up, they're going to be like, text me like, where are you? So, so that's been great. It's kind of like that, you know, when people talk about like linchpin habits or like kind of cornerstone habits, habits that are just kind of like [00:49:00] bedrock and upon what you can build other habits.

That's been helpful for me for whatever that's worth for our listeners. But so good. I could talk with you forever. I know we're getting toward the end of our time. So I wanted to. Kind of get into, um, maybe some healing tactics and tools and just like what was most helpful for you when it came to healing and to growing into a better, more virtuous woman?

Um, were there any books, podcasts, any other tactics that you use that really have helped you?

Samantha: So I would say that one of the first things that I did was I didn't. So there are a lot of different ways that you can sort of approach healing through therapy or, you know, what, whatever those paths might look like.

For me, I had heard priests talk about going to spiritual direction. And so it was something that I thought was just only available for religious people. I was like, Oh, spiritual direction. I guess they sort of tell you how to be spiritual or grow in your journey. I didn't know. And so I went up and I was Said, well, you know, what is this?

And he said, he explained to me that it, you know, is basically somebody that has been formed and educated, you know, in spiritual direction, and it [00:50:00] really was different from therapy and that they were trying to help you be able to see where God was God's discernment in your life. So again, this is a little bit more of kind of a faith solution for it.

But I think that regardless of whether it's. Spiritual direction or it's therapy for me. I wanted it to be that cause I am definitely grounded in my faith and wanted to know where God was leading me, but I think it is that developing of that self awareness, right? And so I think both avenues can do that because you can't really address anything until you're aware of it.

And the thing with. You know, living in this world is, there are millions of messages out there and a lot of them are really wrong. Um, and you know, I know even in my marriage, you know, some of that was, you know, just watching, you know, it's so silly. I feel like, you know, this is something that would have been said a long time ago, but you know, it is the messages that you see in movies or that you, you know, you might read in a book and it begins to form what your beliefs are of how things are supposed to be.

So I think that one thing that's really important [00:51:00] is to know that anything that is out in the culture, it is a message, you know, you might not be picking up on it, but it is a message. And so you need to really be evaluating where does this belief that I have come from? And is it true? You know, is it a principle that I want to build my life on?

Um, because I think that, you know, principles are an important. Architecture for building our lives. What are our core principles? And I'm going to give you one that's been an important one for me. Um, and this came from ST thomas. And so, um, I'm going to paraphrase it, but basically, um, the way here, let's see if I have it and maybe I can read it.

The principle is whatever is received is received according to the mode of the receiver. So to put that in a very layman's terms, it's basically me saying, um, I'm responsible for what I say, but Joey, you're responsible for what you hear, right? Because how you hear me, how I come across a lot of that is based on what your belief systems are, right?

And so, so for me in any relationship, [00:52:00] Just trying to get to that place of, you know, I know that I am good intentioned, um, and hopefully in a relationship that person understands that I'm, you know, good intentioned, but at the end of the day, being able to be cognizant that people can hear you through a different way than maybe what you intended because of their beliefs, the way that they are brought up.

So it's kind of like, to me, a secret decoder of how do we get things so wrong? Sometimes it's because. You know, we're all formed differently. And so the way that we're formed can impact the way that we receive information from other people.

Joey: I love that. That's really helpful. And I think like within that, the lesson I'm learning from you is with the people who have kind of proven themselves to you, who love you, like we should assume the best intentions.

Um, it doesn't mean they're always act. From those best intentions, but we should kind of give them the benefit of the doubt in those moments, which I think is so helpful, especially within marriage, because there's so many chances for missing each other and assuming maybe that they're not on your team and they're, they're, [00:53:00] you know, trying to hurt you or something, which is, you know, usually not true.

So I love that. Was there anything else that was really helpful that you would want to impart to everyone listening when it came to like your growth and healing? It sounds like, I did want to ask you, feel free to answer that, but I wanted to also ask you like how marriage has been healing for you, because you've talked about that a little bit.

I would love to hear a little bit more about how has marriage been healing?

Samantha: Yeah. Marriage has been such a gift to my husband and I, because we really have been able to work through things together. And again, with that belief that we are willing the good of the other, when we do have those miscommunications of things, you know, I mean, he's been such a steadfast rock for me when we first got married.

Um, we got married in 2000 and we always joke, cause I can never exactly remember it. 2000. And I should be able to remember that cause it's an even number. Um, but we got married in 2000 and by April of 2001, my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer and she died three months after that. And that, I mean, just hearing a little bit about my story and knowing how much of a matriarch she was to me, I felt like [00:54:00] I had been sucker punched.

And so we had a lot to deal with. I mean, we had not been married a year yet and, you know, this whole person that was the center of my world was, you know, was removed from me. So I don't want to say that he had to prove himself to me because I loved him and he didn't have to, but he really was my anchor of stability during a time that was completely, I just felt like my, my true North had been removed from me.

I just really didn't know where to look. I mean, my mom was everything to me and I got so much from her just in terms of her love and, you know, just advice. She was a living memory of me, right? Like she's a part of me. And so my mom has passed and my dad has passed. And so some of that living memory, because I'm an only child, you know, it gets really diminished, but being in a marriage with my husband has given me the identity of what we're really called to do, which is man and woman are meant to join together as one flesh.

You know, we, we have our families of origin, but really, you know, those are behind us. And this is really where the message of hope is, I think for the [00:55:00] listeners is again, Can't do anything about those families of origin, but we can play that card really well when we're, you know, with our person, with our, in our marriage, our, our spouse.

And so really just being able to come together and another definition of marriage is that we are constantly being like iron sharpening iron. And the purpose of marriage isn't to get a house. It's not to get a dog. It's not to, you know, be able to. You know, put all of your pictures out there it's to sanctify one another.

And if I want to use a less preachy word, it's just to make each other the best versions of ourselves. And there is really no other way to do that other than with somebody that, you know, that you are loved and that you're committed to. And even if by chance you get into a marriage, you know, and it doesn't work out that way, you know, God will make straight every path that you have.

I don't feel that I can make any mistakes because not, not that I don't want to ever try. Like I try to live a virtuous life, but I don't let myself get too hung up on the shame that I heard as the earlier version of myself, because I know that I'm [00:56:00] seeking to become the better version of myself. I'm seeking to that virtue.

And so I know at the end of the day, whatever mistakes I've made, if I am genuinely. You know, humble about them and I'm sorry about them that it will be worked to a greater good. And I have that confidence and that belief that, you know, that that is the plan for me. That is the plan for my husband and for our family.

Joey: Love it. Two other questions. How did you come to forgive your dad? You, you mentioned that before and I wanted to go back into it. That's one part. And the second part is how did you overcome that fear that you had of Divorce and maybe repeating what you saw in your parents marriage.

Samantha: The question about my dad, about how I came to forgive him, it's really ironic in the sense that I came to forgive him in the time where we were probably in the period of one of our greatest fights.

Um, my dad, you know, again, the mode of the receiver, right? And so sometimes the way that he would hear things that I said to him came from his brokenness. And so he would hear something in me that was. Not at all what I intended it to be. And so there'd be this [00:57:00] misunderstanding. And then of course my brokenness would be like, well, how dare you say that?

Like you left, you know, like, sorry. Um, so I don't remember specifically what the fight was, but he had really gotten very angry at me about something. And. I had committed that I was going to go visit him before this fight had happened. Um, and he remarried. And so I had told his wife, you know, I'm going to be here on XYZ day, you know, cause they lived in Colorado.

I should share that. I live in Pennsylvania. They lived in Colorado. So I had to actually go take a flight to go see him. Um, and I committed to being there this day and I said I would do it. And we had this fight and it was terrifying, but gosh, I just knew. That if I did not do this hard thing, remember that thing that we talked about doing this hard thing that by.

Any other reason I would have been right not to go see him right in the world standard, you know, he had hurt me and it would have been forgivable for me to not do that really hard thing to get on a plane by myself, [00:58:00] go get the car, go drive to them, right? Go see them knowing that my father was. Seriously angry with me, but he was dealing with, um, some Alzheimer's and I, I didn't really know, you know, I didn't know, you don't really know what that disease, how long somebody is going to, going to have with you, whether they die physically or whether they just lose their memories of things.

And so I really said, you know, I have to do this. And sort of what I told myself is. At the end of the day, I know I'm doing the right thing and how he receives me is not in my control, but what is in my control is being able to forgive him. And so I went out and I did it. And I actually ended up having a family friend, um, an aunt type person.

She had family that she was going to see in Colorado. So she went with me. And so that was an answered prayer because it would have been terrifying to think about going out there by myself, but I was committed to it. And so I just did it. I did the hard thing and it was beautiful. And I think that. You know, I think my dad was completely surprised to see me come through that door.

I think they both had thought she's not coming and I didn't even let them know I was, I just, I had told them [00:59:00] like weeks before that, like I'll be there on X, Y, Z date, never called to confirm, just showed up. It's like, hi. Um, so the element of surprise maybe worked a little bit because nobody could really think about it because I didn't really tell them that I was for sure going to come, but, um, it's just doing that hard thing.

It really is. You just, and you can't be dissuaded from it because all I can control is what I do. I can't control how other people receive me, but I would have felt bad with myself if I hadn't done it.

Joey: Love that. And there's something about when you do hard things to not think about it too much. You just have to like do it.

Um, which I found is like, is, is helpful. You kind of turn off that part of your brain to some extent. I know that you need to think through certain things, but, um, but wow, super good. And I know we're close to the end of the time here, but I just wanted to ask you this question about, um. Well, two more questions.

One about like, how did you overcome that fear of divorce? Cause I think that's something so many of us just feel so strongly. And we might even like avoid love relationships, marriage altogether because it controls us so strongly. How'd you work through that?

Samantha: I wish I had a better answer for you, but I will just say, um, the way that I was able to overcome it was [01:00:00] really through the strength of my husband, because.

My husband just, he showed up for me in every way before we were married. You know, when we were together, he called when he said he was going to call, you know, we did the things that we said that we were going to do when he said it, all of the inconstancy that I felt with my dad's absence was completely replaced by the steadfastness of my husband.

And so I was able to get past that because. Yeah. He spent a long time building up my trust. You know, he didn't ask me to come to him. He walked, you know, over the bridge to come get me and build that trust. And in building that trust, he was able to, you know, to lead me to him, to lead me to trusting that it was going to be okay.

And early on in our marriage, one thing that I would always do, because again, it was my brokenness and we would get into a fight and I would just. I'm going to get a divorce. We're just going to get a divorce. And one day he said to me, he said, Sam, he said, I know that you get really angry, but it hurts me so much when you say that, because I never want to get divorced from you.

Like I'm never giving [01:01:00] up on you. And it just hit me so much that, you know, that this was a person that had truly earned my trust. And even though we make mistakes, and even though there are times when I misunderstand him and he misunderstands me, like at the end of the day, we were really committed to each other.

So I would just say, you know. It's not easy to find who your person is going to be. I don't believe that that person is the only one person for you. I can't imagine being with anybody other than my husband, but we made a choice to be together and we made a choice to put the other before ourselves and in that choice and in that commitment, I think is how we were able to walk day by day, moment by moment.

To not being afraid of divorce because it was certainly present in the beginning, but again, you just take that one little step and it comes back to, you have to live in the present. You can't live in the future or in the past because the only thing that's there are assumptions and theories and things that are fearful.

And the best acronym I heard for fear is false evidence appearing as real. And that's what [01:02:00] happens when you live in the past and the future, right? It's that false evidence. It seems so real, but it's just your trust.

Joey: I love that. And what I'm learning from your story, I've heard this elsewhere, is like, action is the antidote to fear.

Like you said earlier in the conversation, you just have to push through it, move through it. You can't go around it, under it, over it. You have to like push through that fear, especially if it's something that's worth fighting for. And what I've found in my life, and I know others have found this as well, is like, when you overcome fear, you feel free.

And that opens up so many possibilities to, to love, to grow, to accomplish things, to go after your dreams.

Samantha: It opens up the door for you to keep going and experience the next thing. When you begin to shut the door to those things, you get very limited and your world gets really small. And so we never want our world to get small because when it gets really small, it's hard for us to have an understanding about other people because we're not experiencing other things.

Um, so I would definitely agree with that action. You know, action is the antidote to that. And again, it doesn't have to be a big thing. It can be that [01:03:00] first thing that you do in the morning where you get up at 5 30 because You said you were going to, or you're going to go take that walk. I mean, I think the greatest barrier that I had to my freedom was thinking that they had to be these huge heroic steps, right?

But oftentimes it's really the series of the small steps that you do every day on repeat that help you break through. And that liberation. It just feels like you're light that you just have all of those pressures and those burdens removed from you. And again, you might not get it perfect, but you're just taking that next step and you're taking those next actions and it is the greatest feeling.

Joey: Samantha, I have a hundred more questions for you, but we'll cut it there. You're so wise and so articulate and I just, I've really learned a lot from you. I appreciate you coming on the show. So thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and sharing your story. So openly, so vulnerably, I know we all learned a lot from you.

So thank you. I want to give you the last word. What final encouragement advice would you offer to maybe the younger you who's listening right now?

Samantha: I think the advice that I would give myself would be [01:04:00] really to remember that this life that we have, you know, is this one life and that all the things that we get hung up in our minds about really are inconsequential because when you start to move through them, you realize that that thing that you were worried about, like, you don't remember any of it.

I tell that to my kids all the time. I'm like, I don't remember. I mean, I remember my mom's death. I remember my father's death, but all the other stuff, it's really just. So momentary, and it is a way that can hold you back from things. And so I just say, take that next small step, you know, acknowledge, you know, where you are in life and be okay with that and just keep taking the next.

Small step and just living in that present moment. And if you can do that, I assure you all of the things will work out because our life is meant to be a journey. It's not meant to be perfect from the beginning. It's all a work in progress. We are all learning to become the best version of ourselves. But the only way that we can really do that is through those series of actions that we take each and every day.

So keep taking those steps.

Joey: If you [01:05:00] want to contact Samantha, you could actually do so through the email and the show notes or just click on the show notes in your phone, turn email there. And with that, that wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or follow us on your podcast app, whether that's Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen, not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more.

Subscribers that we have, the more the apps will actually suggest our show to people who are looking for help. And it only takes a few seconds to do that. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. That also helps other listeners find the podcast. And we really appreciate that feedback in closing.

Always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help and keep in mind the words of CS Lewis, who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Restored 9/11/24 Restored 9/11/24

#131: Family Felt Stressful, Tense, & Unstable | Jordana

After 24 years of marriage, Jordana’s parents divorced. Overall, her experience of family felt tense, stressful, and unstable.

After 24 years of marriage, Jordana’s parents divorced. Overall, her experience of family felt tense, stressful, and unstable. Once she learned of her parents’ divorce, she went into problem-solver mode, taking on the role of mother for her siblings.

In this episode, you’ll hear us discuss all of that, plus:

How filling a parent role isn’t ideal, but sometimes necessary for a season, and how to handle the guilt about moving forward in your life.
Her struggles with communicating in relationships and with anxiety overall
Why it’s so helpful to put your feelings into words, even though it seems too simple to help

Searching for and Maintaining Peace: A Small Treatise on Peace of Heart

Links & Resources

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

131_Final

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Joey: [00:00:00] What was life like for you at home in the years and the months before your parents split?

Jordana: The word that usually comes to mind when I think about that part of my life was tension. It was very high stress for everyone involved. I think I noticed it the most though when I started dating and was in relationships.

Joey: How about emotional problems.

Jordana: The anxiety was probably the biggest one. Hypervigilance was a big one as well. You know, trying to be aware of or anticipating needs in a not healthy way, right? Where I'm like expecting the worst all the time.

Uh, I would hold myself back a lot in, in friendships and relationships. I wouldn't allow myself to kind of like be fully myself. Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

Joey: My guest today is Jordana. Jordana graduated from Rowan University with a bachelor's in psychology. She's passionate about [00:01:00] walking with young people, especially through youth ministry. She joined our team at Restored recently, actually, and we're really happy to have her. I know we're both overjoyed at the opportunity just to work together and to help the young people that we serve.

She's the oldest of five siblings, and, uh, she enjoys singing, playing guitar, and she's happiest out in nature and at the beach. After 24 years of marriage, Jordan and his parents divorced, and before, during, and even after the divorce, Tension, stress, and instability really described her experience of family life.

And once she learned that her parents were getting divorced, she went into problem solving mode, which included taking on the role of being kind of a mother to her siblings. And in this episode, you'll hear us discuss all of that, plus how filling that parent role really isn't ideal, but sometimes it's necessary for a season.

We talk about how to handle the guilt about moving forward in your life and maybe leaving your family and even your siblings. We talk about her Struggles in relationships, especially with communicating and her struggles with her emotions, especially anxiety. We talk about why it's so helpful to put your feelings into words, even though it [00:02:00] might seem too simple to actually help.

And she shares a simple tip to help a sibling or a friend who's struggling. So if you can relate to any of that, this episode is for you. Here's my conversation with Jordana. Jordana, welcome to the show. So good to have you here.

Jordana: Thanks so much, Joey. I'm so excited to be here.

Joey: We're thrilled to not only have you in this episode, but um, as a team member at Resort, just love working with you.

So I'm excited to hear more of your story through this episode. I wanted to start kind of going back in time. What was life like for you at home in the years and the months before your parents split?

Jordana: Sure. Yeah. It's interesting thinking back on it because it was such a mix of obviously good times and bad times.

Stressful times as well. So, you know, there was obviously dysfunction at the root of our family life, but, um, I think everyone kind of tried to ignore it. They tried to, you know, everyone was just trying their best, right? Everyone's doing the best with the tools that they have, especially my parents. And so they were trying to make it seem [00:03:00] like it was okay.

And, uh, but it just created this, um, uneasy tension. You know, the feeling of maybe walking on eggshells or not really quite knowing when someone was going to be upset or something that you would say, you know, as a child, maybe setting one of your parents off the word that usually comes to mind when I think about that part of my life was tension.

Joey: It's a good word. I'm sorry you had to go through all that, but it makes so much sense. And in one of the recent interviews, um, we were talking about how that like security, like as a person feeling secure is kind of like this felt sense of safety. And so often for those of us in broken families, like that's removed from us.

Like, I remember a time in my life where I felt that as a kid, like, I remember like very much. So like, it's this vivid memory I have of like being in the car. With my family, dad, driving mom in the passenger seat and just feeling like nothing in the world could hurt me sort of thing. And there's probably a little bit of delusion because like, there's certainly many things that can hurt you in the world.

But, um, but I think that's like really good and [00:04:00] important. And like that sort of security leads to our ability to like love and flourish. And so when that's kind of like violated and taken away from us, it leads to a lot of problems, which I know we're going to get into.

Jordana: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Joey: So. Next, I'm curious to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, you know, what led your parents to seek, you know, separation of divorce?

Jordana: I guess it's kind of a long story, but to make it short, you know, I'm very, I try to be very conscious of where my parents were coming from, because obviously their stories very much influence what is now my story and my sibling stories, you know, um, So they both came from very difficult childhoods, difficult upbringings, and they themselves really didn't have the support from their parents that they needed growing up.

And so again, you know, this theme of doing the best with the tools that they have, but they didn't really have a lot of tools. And so it just, it built up for those 24 years that they were married and, you know, things got more and more tense, more and more difficult. And I think it just finally became the last straw.

My mom was the one who decided to, you know, [00:05:00] to initiate the divorce. And, uh, yeah, it just kind of all happened after that.

Joey: Okay. No, that makes sense. Um, how long were they married? Do you know that?

Jordana: Uh, 24 years.

Joey: 24 years. Okay. That's fascinating. I've heard a lot of, I know people close to me who like, have similar stories in terms of their parents being married that long.

Cause I know, I think on average, according to the U. S. census, like it's, if you're in a first marriage, it's like seven years typically on average from when you get separated and then one more year. So eight years in total before you get divorced. So it's definitely outside the norm to go that, to be married that long.

Um, but I wonder if that's typical in like faith based marriages, like Christian or Catholic marriages, any thoughts on that?

Jordana: Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that a hundred percent, uh, especially to the degree that we were involved, uh, in the faith, you know, we're, you know, going every Sunday, very involved in our parish, very, very traditional, you know, I don't even know how to, how to phrase it, very traditional lifestyle of Catholicism, uh, and so that I think a hundred percent [00:06:00] impacted it.

Yeah, that and just a lack of support for the alternative, you know, I think maybe it would have happened sooner if one of my parents felt like they would have been able to support themselves being divorced, but didn't really seem like an option.

Joey: Yeah, that, that makes sense. It's not this, and I'm not saying this about your parents, but in general, like, it's not always necessarily that they're like opposed to divorce, but it's just like divorce isn't like a good option for them.

Maybe economically, financially, that makes sense. Yeah,

Jordana: exactly. Exactly. Absolutely.

Joey: Super interesting. Did your parents reach out for help amidst the struggles, if you're comfortable sharing that?

Jordana: Yeah. Yeah, they did. They, um, you know, marriage, retreats, counseling. I, I know that they, they did seek help.

Joey: Okay.

Got it. And maybe, did you see it work in some instances and not in others? Or was it just like kind of short lived?

Jordana: Yeah, I think it was more short lived. Again, when you're living in, you know, You know, if you're living out of the lens of your own brokenness, like my parents were, it just makes it really hard to attempt healing.

I think at least that's what I saw in [00:07:00] my experience of them. And that's, you know, that's what they continued doing. They weren't really, you know, getting to the root, the root root of things to, to get that healing that they needed.

Joey: Totally makes sense. I like the way you talk about it too, about, you know, kind of doing the best that they can with the tools they have.

I think one of the things that I look at my own parents with, it's like, man, I've been given so much more in so many ways, in large part, thanks to them, at least indirectly, than they were really given, like they had to do more with like less. And so I definitely feel grateful to them and to, you know, everyone else in my life who's like kind of helped me, but yeah, it is, it is a really difficult thing, but I, um, one final question on this.

And again, only to the degree you're comfortable sharing. I'm curious, like, did you see those attempts to the best of your memory of like, Going to retreats and therapy and whatever else were they typically like done over like long periods of time like with an intense commitment or was it more like we'll try this and then no we're not going to do it like kind of flaking out.

Jordana: It's an interesting question because I was so Young and a lot of, I actually don't [00:08:00] remember a lot of details sometimes from my childhood, cause I was, I felt very stressed frequently. And the other thing too, was they tried not to show that to the kids. I could definitely give them credit there. You know, they tried not to show us that they were fighting.

They tried not to show that there were problems. And of course that leads to, you know, its own set of problems. But, um, so whenever they, they would go on retreats or they, if they were going to counseling, we didn't really know about it. Um, so it was kind of more like under the table. So,

Joey: okay. Those are too hard to answer that.

Cause one of the things that I've seen in marriages that end up falling apart often, it's because they don't even ask for help. Like there's this kind of this attitude of like, we'll figure it out. I don't know how, but we'll somehow figure it out. Or we'll just like, kind of like muscle our way through it.

That's one attitude that I think Definitely leads to like lots and lots of problems. The other attitude would be like, um, marriages where they kind of tip their toes in like healing and getting help. And it's like, Oh yeah, let's go to therapy. But they go to therapy for like two sessions or four sessions or even like six months, [00:09:00] maybe once a month or whatever.

But it's like in the large scheme of things, the effort that necessary to deal with the. Severity of the brokenness, there's a mismatch. Like they need to do way more effort in order to like, to deal with the brokenness, that's what I've typically seen. And so like, yeah, whereas people are kind of reaching out for help and doing some activity to get help.

Um, and I'm not saying this about your parents, but it's just what I've seen. Um, they might not be doing it at the level that's necessary as if you had a physical illness. It's like, oh, I have cancer. Well I'm just gonna, you know, walk once a week and like try and not one day of the week. I'm not gonna eat sugar.

And then maybe I'll see the doctor like every six months. It's like, well it's not gonna help you get rid of your cancer.

Jordana: Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I think that relates a lot to my parents as well. And it's just the other fact that seeking help. One, itself is hard and two, sticking with it is even harder, especially when, you know, I, I say that as a 26 year old, you know, but it's even harder the older you get and the longer your brokenness has, you know, kind of set into your bones in a way, but yeah, [00:10:00] that, that makes sense.

Joey: That's so wise. No, I love it. You said like, seeking help is hard. Sticking with it is harder. So, so true. Boom. Quote. I love it. So, so moving on, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced and how old are you now?

Jordana: Yeah. So I was actually 20 when they divorced. I was a senior in college and I am 26 years old now.

Joey: Okay. So you've been living with this a little bit. And how long did the divorce last for them? Was it pretty immediate or did it drag on?

Jordana: So the actual divorce process was about six months. Okay. And then I would say, you know, figuring out how to proceed as a divorced couple probably took even longer. It definitely took longer, you know, a few years at least and obviously still dealing with, you know, the fallout of all of that.

But yeah, so six months for the actual divorce, but several years for actually living that out.

Joey: Fair. Yeah. And I can understand that. How did you learn about the separation, about the divorce and what was your reaction to it?

Jordana: Yeah. I definitely remember that moment. Um, my, I remember my mom [00:11:00] coming to tell me it was just kind of like late at night and I was, I had my own room at the time and she came in and told me that she was going to divorce my dad and it was a very obviously, you know, as to be expected, a great mix of feelings.

I felt not necessarily surprised because I knew that their relationship was broken. Maybe more just, you know, there was certainly still an element of shock, uh, just because of the suddenness of it. And then there was just kind of like a great, great sadness. I just, you know, she, after she left the room, I remember sobbing and just feeling like the floor was like pulled out from underneath me.

You know, kind of just like a sense of like, well, what am I, what am I do now with this information? What do I do going forward? And I kind of immediately went into fix it mode and solution mode and thinking about my siblings. I have five younger siblings and, uh, yeah, just, you know, feeling like any kind of support that I felt like I had.

I felt like at the time I couldn't lean on my parents at all going forward from [00:12:00] that.

Joey: So you felt like you were on your own.

Jordana: Yeah. Mm hmm.

Joey: How did your relationship with your siblings change after you got that news? You mentioned you were worried about them. So I'm curious kind of what shifted.

Jordana: Yeah, that's a good question.

I don't even know if there was necessarily a shift. My siblings and I were always very close, very tight knit, and we still are that way. But I think I just took on, you know, I put a responsibility on myself in that moment of, you know, I need to be there for my siblings. I can put my own feelings and needs aside for them.

because we're in crisis mode right now. And so, you know, I kind of assumed the role of a second mother to, to them and felt like they needed at least somebody to look to who was stable in taking step forward, steps forward, uh, through that process.

Joey: Okay. No, I can relate so much cause I'm number two in my family of six, big family as well.

And, um, and I certainly felt that responsibility and, you know, stepped into that role, especially for certain seasons. Maybe when my like older [00:13:00] brother wasn't around when he was away at college, for example, and just feeling like, yeah, they, in some ways, you know, they lost a parent almost to death and it's like, well, man, these kids need a father in my case, or in your case, they need a mother, they need someone to mother them at least, you know, so I totally see that.

And I, um, I definitely have seen like the negative effects of that in my life. Um, but I've seen a lot of good coming from it, from like, kind of being in that role for them. Like, I think they needed it, even though if it kind of negatively affects people like us in different ways. But I think like sometimes it's unavoidable and for a season of our lives, we kind of have to fill that role as, as unideal as it, as it is.

Jordana: Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that. And it gives you a certain, at least it gave me a certain tenacity and a grit, you know, for, okay, we're dealing with this, with this crisis right now. And I liked that you phrased it as seasons. You know, I certainly wasn't looking at, at it like that at the time, but looking back now and certainly how I view life now is, you know, okay, for this season, this is the role that I think I need to fill, but you're right.

You know, it's, it's, [00:14:00] even if it's unjust or not ideal, it's, it's necessary sometimes.

Joey: Yeah, totally. That's it. I like how you put it. And I, um, What I've seen too is like I felt a lot of guilt kind of moving beyond those roles that I was filling, even going to like college. So I went to junior college for a year.

I did some like AP CLEP exam stuff. So I had some credit college credits as well. So I did junior college for a year and then, um, went off to university to college. And, you know, that was like really hard. And I remember pulling away from like the house and, um, the thing that like, Cut like the pain, like I felt in my chest and that made me tear up was leaving my little siblings.

That was the hardest

Jordana: part. Yeah.

Joey: Yeah. So it was like, I kind of felt guilty. I felt sad. There was a lot of emotion at play there, but something in me knew that me like kind of pursuing the path I felt called to in life would in some way benefit them. Right. So, so that was like something that I kind of had to wrestle with and just make a decision like, okay, I'm going to move forward.

I'm going to kind of seek out, you know, where I'm called and go down that path. And And I've seen that play out, [00:15:00] you know, not, not that it's been perfect in any means and not that it's been like a pure blessing, but it, there's been some struggles, what I'm saying, but by and large, um, for them, I think they've seen, and now being married and having kids and like having my siblings around those kids, like.

That's where I've kind of seen it come a little bit full circle where it's like, okay, this is why I wasn't really supposed to just like stay at home for years and years and years and be like the dad they, you know, hopefully in some level, I'm definitely not a perfect father, husband, but in some level are inspired by that.

And hopefully would, you know, pursue that if that's like the path that they're called to in life. So I think there's something about that, that we often forget about when we're in the midst of it, or maybe feeling like some guilt about moving forward in our own life. Did you feel that guilt as well?

Jordana: Oh my gosh.

Yeah. I was relating very, very much to what you said. Um, so I commuted for college. I didn't go away, which is interesting because that's all I wanted to do was go away for college, wound up staying because it financially wouldn't work out. But you know, you see the Lord's plan. I was meant to stay home. Um, but certainly every time I was going to go out [00:16:00] for an event, or if I was going to go out with my friends, it was a struggle every time.

You know, I wanted to go out and do something for myself when I felt like I needed to stay home with my siblings. Yeah, that was definitely a similar guilt that I struggled with.

Joey: It's a tough spot to be in. And so I think for everyone listening, who maybe feels that too, like give yourself some permission to step out of that role.

Like obviously if there's any really dire situation and you're needed for a season, then we get that. We both had to do that to some extent. Um, but I think in time, kind of like we're, describing, um, it can actually benefit your siblings more if you kind of move forward in life and try to show them what like thriving and living a healthy, like functional life looks like.

Um, that's at least what I've learned. Anything you would add to that?

Jordana: Yeah. No, just that I would fully agree with that. And it's not even that we're, we need to hold ourselves to a standard to be a perfect example for them because like you said, you know, obviously we're never going to be perfect. We're still going to struggle.

But I think. When they see us striving for a healthy life, they see us making an effort to invite peace into our lives, invite peace into our homes and to [00:17:00] create joy and security, especially, you know, when you had such a lack of security, I just think that, you know, them seeing you striving is what's important.

But, um, yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to feel like that as well when you're like, well, I'm not a perfect example either. But yeah, I just think that them, them seeing you strive for being healthy is what's so important.

Joey: I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so often, like, if you think of just everyday life, it's like the habit of like having good habits, whether it's like going to the gym or praying or eating healthy food or working hard, like whatever it is, um, those are the two things that I Point and to some extent, that's like the point is like to build those good habits in your life and hopefully those can be an example to other people, not to be like the perfectly like fit person or eat healthy a hundred percent of the time, or, you know, never make mistakes or never, you know, be the most productive at work.

Like all those things are good things to strive for, but it's not like you're, you're, we're saying you're not going to be like succeeding, quote unquote, every single time at like a. Perfect. Like a plus like a hundred percent of the [00:18:00] time, right. But I think it is like that example of like, okay, no, I'm going after the right things and it does set a good example.

And I've always thought of that, um, saying about how so much more is, uh, caught than taught in our families, especially. And so if you see someone and you surround yourself with people who are like trying to live a healthy life and doing like. Good things with their lives. Like you're going to typically be like drawn to that and pulled in that direction.

Um, the same is true of the opposite. If you're surrounding yourself with people who aren't good for you and kind of pull you down and they have like bad habits in their lives, then you're going to be tempted to do that stuff as well. So, um, so I think it's very true for our siblings as well. If we can be somewhat of an example, I always call myself like more of like a guinea pig, like, uh, you can kind of learn from some of the good and learn from the bad as well, because I've certainly made mistakes, but

Jordana: yeah.

Yep. I agree completely.

Joey: Awesome. What was life like for you during the separation and the divorce? You already touched on kind of the role you had to play with your siblings and anything else you'd add though.

Jordana: Yeah. I mean, it was just, it was very high stress for everyone [00:19:00] involved. I mean, I was in my senior year of college, I was working a couple of jobs.

I. You know, wasn't sleeping, um, like no college student does. Um, yeah, it was just, it was just high stress and it was surviving and just, you know, hoping that the next season was coming as quickly as possible.

Joey: You want to put it behind you and that, and that makes a lot of sense. And I'd imagine my parents divorce, unfortunately, spanned out like three years.

So it was like more of like a marathon. Um, and I imagine with a shorter divorce, there's like a, an extent of like whiplash. I remember talking with, um, a coworker in the past who was sharing with me, um, just about how her parents divorce had been like really fast. It was during COVID and when they were doing like stuff online and things actually got more efficient and we're moving pretty fast.

And I think it was like a matter of like a week or something like that. I can't remember the exact timeline. So I think she had kind of experienced in her siblings experience, like a. Bit of whiplash. Did you feel that too or maybe not?

Jordana: That's a great question. [00:20:00] Looking back on it, it didn't feel like whiplash to me.

Yeah, I don't, I don't think so. I think it just felt like, the whole time just felt like scrambling. So maybe it was a little bit of whiplash. You know, it just felt like I was, we were scrambling to put pieces back together and somehow create some kind of stability again as soon as possible.

Joey: That makes so much sense.

And that that word stability is a good one because I think that's like one of the primary things that's removed from the lives of like children regardless of their age when the parents divorce it's it really is and not that it was perfectly stable before but you know it's like there's a broken foundation and then there's like no foundation so to speak and I think it's um it's definitely a really really difficult thing to to go through.

When did you realize that the dysfunction and the divorce were affecting you? Negatively. Like, was it something you woke up and like, Oh gosh, this is affecting me. I didn't realize it. Or were you always kind of aware of it or was it more gradual? What do you think?

Jordana: Yeah, I suppose it was more gradual. I was always very inclined to [00:21:00] people's behavior, which was why I studied psychology in college and very much enjoyed it.

And so there was definitely a level of self awareness for myself. And so it was, but it was more removed. There was a bit of a disconnect. I was like, okay, I know that divorce will affect people in X, Y, and Z. And so I would kind of be on the lookout for that for myself, but you can only be an objective perspective of yourself for so long.

Uh, it's not very sustainable. So I think I noticed it the most, though, when I started dating and was in relationships, I think that was the biggest area that it definitely impacted me. Um, you know, I started noticing, wow, I'm really anxious all of the time. I'm always on edge. I always feel tension. I am so fixated on what other people are thinking of me and am I doing something wrong?

I always felt like I was doing something wrong and communication was terrible. So all of those, all of those ways, I think that started, I started to realize that when I was getting into [00:22:00] relationships and dating.

Joey: If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed for you. to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes. No, makes so much sense. And thanks for sharing all that. Um, how about emotional problems? What emotional problems have you experienced?

Jordana: Yeah. Well, I mean, I would say the anxiety was probably the biggest one. Um, I had the most difficult time keeping that in check.

Yeah. Cause it would just, it would just spill over into all of my interactions with people. Like I was impacting every relationship, you know, not just romantic relationships. Yeah. And I think, I think that was just the biggest thing, like fixating on what other people were thinking. And so I was just, fearful and anxious all of the time.[00:23:00]

Joey: Okay. And was that the primary like source of the anxiety kind of like other people's opinion of your perception of you, or was there kind of other things that played out in relationships that caused you to feel anxious?

Jordana: Yeah, I think that was the pri the primary thing that would drive it. And so I would, Be very focused on things that I was saying or things that I was doing, but there was just also a lot of fear, you know, having seen my parents example, having lived their example, that was always a driving fear behind that as well.

You know, I don't want that to happen to me. And again, being aware of, I know that this will affect me in this way and that repeating the cycle is so likely that fear definitely drove it a lot.

Joey: Okay. No, I can relate a lot with that. I think a lot of everyone in this thing can too. Um, who comes from a broken family.

It's like, we want better. We went different. What about bad habits? What bad habits did you fall into to whatever you're comfortable sharing?

Jordana: Sure. Yeah. I think mine were, they were really more emotional, bad habits. Um, maybe that's a way to categorize it, but, uh, I would hold myself [00:24:00] back a lot in, in friendships and relationships.

I wouldn't allow myself to kind of like be fully myself. I wouldn't communicate my needs or my wants. And I would consider that a habit because it just became so second nature for me to not acknowledge anything that I wanted or needed from other people, you know, to the point where I was just making myself miserable because I wasn't, you know, I wasn't either asking for help or I wasn't allowing myself to receive love or help from other people.

That's been a really hard habit to break.

Joey: Yeah. Kind of what I hear you saying is like that fierce independence that. And, and you also mentioned that, um, just kind of like being the chameleon, like changing to kind of be and do what people want instead of maybe just like being yourself and kind of having the attitude of like, you can take it or leave it.

This is me.

Jordana: Yeah. Yeah. I certainly was not like that at all. Yeah. No,

Joey: I, I definitely hear you. And I've seen, we've seen that a lot with like people from broken families, like we're really good at like [00:25:00] reading a crowd and like, you know, not everyone, but like on average, like we're good at reading a crowd and just kind of understanding like what people kind of expect us to be and trying to like fit into that mold.

And yeah. And I think, you know, as you probably can imagine, like, um, so much of it just comes from, you know, Maybe different expectations of our parents and needing to kind of switch roles, whether it's like going over to dad's house or mom's house, or even things at home, like dealing with one or the other, it can be, can be tricky.

And definitely like we seem to have that experience of kind of switching faces, mass roles.

Jordana: Yeah. Yeah.

Joey: I was also wondering just if you would elaborate a little bit more how. You know, you've struggled in relationships, um, especially romantic relationships. Like, have you seen the brokenness from your family come out there?

Jordana: Sure. Yeah. In several ways, um, communication, like I mentioned, was probably the biggest one again, you know, not expressing what I really needed or, or wanted, you know, something as, as small as asking if my significant other wanted to go do something, you know, that like, [00:26:00] even that small request would give me anxiety The anticipation or the fear of rejection of even something as small as that was pretty detrimental to me.

So that just, I mean, that just like micromanages your every interaction with your significant other. So I think that was the biggest area. Um, and then of course that just kind of led to a constant anxiety and a hypervigilance. Hypervigilance was a big one as well. You know, trying to be aware of or anticipating needs in a not healthy way, right?

Where I'm like expecting the worst. All the time or I'm expecting some kind of negative reaction to anything. So just constantly being on edge in, in romantic relationships.

Joey: Okay. Now I hear you. And again, so many of us listening to you can, can relate. Given all of that, when did you decide to ask for help and what's the, what's been the most helpful thing when it comes to helping you heal and transform into, you know, better, stronger you?

Jordana: I was open to asking for help. I think gradually, you know, it's, it started slowly. I got more [00:27:00] and more comfortable being vulnerable. Um, when I was in college, I was very involved with my Newman center. Um, and so like that sense of community was, was huge for me and started to help me become more vulnerable after my parents divorced.

And, um, so I would say that I was like the start of it, kind of like planting seeds, but just as I was, as I was dating more, as I was, You know, learning more about myself and how I interact with other people. I just kind of start to realize you're like, okay, I can't, this isn't sustainable. I can't continue interacting with others in this unhealthy way.

And I need to do something about it. I need to, you know, if I don't want to repeat the cycle, I have to do something about it. Um, You know, and being, it's funny that, you know, I studied psychology, I was, I'm always been super into it. And I'm always, I was always suggesting that other people got therapy. Um, but I would always put it on the back burner for myself, not because I didn't think that I needed it.

I knew that I would benefit from it and probably needed it, but I just didn't feel like it. I did not physically have the energy to, you know, Pour that time into myself. I think that also came from, you know, [00:28:00] putting my needs aside for for that season. Uh, that just kind of like continued, but I did, you know, finally start going to therapy.

And, uh, so that was a big help. Just helping me to talk about. Uh, how I was feeling, how to put, like, what I was feeling internally into words, because that felt very difficult for me, especially when I was talking to other people, because I was just always thinking about what their reaction was going to be.

And so it didn't give me the freedom to take my time putting things into words. Um, so therapy very much helped me do that. And at the same time, I was just filling myself with all kinds of content, listening to podcasts, watching YouTube videos. You know, um, and listening to other people's stories as well made, made a huge impact on, you know, the journey for healing for me.

Joey: Beautiful. Why do you think it's so helpful to put what you're feeling into words to learn the language you need to articulate your story? It's kind of a fascinating thing and it seems like a really simple kind of almost like something you can skip over. But [00:29:00] it's really not. What are your thoughts on that?

Jordana: Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on that. Um, I just think, you know, your, your interior life, the way that you experience experiences, um, the way you internalize experiences, perhaps being able to have language for that and have another person receive what you specifically are going through, I think is very healing because Then you're not experiencing that rejection, right?

So like this fear of rejection that I kept talking about. And I think maybe a lot of, you know, people from broken families can relate with because maybe their parents didn't always know how or didn't receive them well when they tried to express their feelings, right? And so having, being able to like have the confidence to put language to that and have another person be like, Oh, that makes sense.

You know, maybe they can't relate to what you're going through, but they can understand because of the language that you were using, you know, like, okay, that makes sense that you would feel that way then, or it makes sense that you're internalizing this experience in this way. And it just makes you feel, it makes me feel, you know, understood.

And it's like, okay, I'm not crazy. [00:30:00] Um, I think it, it really lessens the isolating feeling and, you know, the lack of support or a lack of security that that creates.

Joey: That's really good. And that makes a lot of sense. And. I think we've talked about this separately of that, uh, quote, I've heard it from Brené Brown.

She was quoting someone else who said like, the limits of your language are the limits of your world. The limits of your language are the limits of your world. And I think there's so much truth to that. Like if we can't describe our experiences and the things we're feeling, then it really does stifle us.

It like really holds us back in life. Um, and so there's something like really freeing and powerful. And that's a. That's the feedback we've heard the most probably about this podcast is that it frees, it gives people the ability to describe, to put into words their experiences. Um, sometimes, and this always kind of breaks my heart, but sometimes after many, many years of going through their family falling apart, their parents getting divorced, like, you know, I've heard from people in like their 50s, 60s, even heard stories of people in like their 70s.

I'm like, man, I never heard anyone talk about this the way that you guys are. And it's [00:31:00] sad. It's really sad to me that all those years, um, they kind of went through, like you said, isolated, alone, like, kind of maybe dismissing the pain and dismissing like what they had been through. Um, so I think there is something, yeah, so freeing about that.

And I think it also gives you the ability to move beyond it. Cause like, that's the whole goal of everything we're doing here. I know. You know, we're like in the midst of doing this work and we're kind of like living and breathing this every day, but we don't want people to like stay stuck and broken. We want to like move them from that place to a place of like freedom to move on with their life, to kind of close that chapter in the past.

There will always be challenges that come up, but we want them to be like strong and virtuous so they're better able to navigate and handle those challenges, um, and build those healthy relationships. But we don't want anyone to like stay in the past. And I think one of the ways is actually kind of starting with like Hey, this is what happened to me.

Sort of thing. And, um, it's somewhat reminds me of like how in the 12 step programs, like the first step is like kind of admitting that you have a problem. And, uh, and I think one part of admitting you have a problem is like putting language to it.

Jordana: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that because I also, when [00:32:00] you don't have the language, you know, it's just kind of like stored in your body and you're like, I know I'm feeling a certain way, but I don't really know how to explain it.

And, you know, maybe Even I don't even know where it's coming from or what's causing me to feel this way. And so the other element that I would add to that is having the language, being able to move past it because you are able to get to the root, you know, you're like, you're able to put it into words now.

And it's like, okay, well, I, you know, why, why then do I react this way? Why do I feel that way? And, you know, instead of it just being this kind of indescribable. You know, feeling in my chest, feeling in my stomach and in my whole body. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely helps you move past it because you can figure out why.

Joey: Totally. And you make me think in the medical world, right? When you're dealing with some sort of health problem that is nameless, that you don't have a diagnosis for that you can't really figure out, the doctors can't figure out, um, it's really debilitating and there is a, Huge amount of freedom to like putting a name on it, like you have this condition, this is what you're dealing with, you know, hoping that it's like a proper diagnosis of course.

[00:33:00] And, and I think there's like a ton of, yeah, there's definitely a ton of freedom in being able to like put a name on it. Cause then at that point, like if you think in the medical world, then opens up the options of treating it. Because otherwise, you're just kind of like shooting in the dark, like being like, I think this will help.

I don't know if it will help entirely because we don't really know the problem. But once you understand maybe like the problem, then the solutions kind of present themselves. And it makes me think of in the, I forget who said this, but, um, a problem, you know, well defined is a problem half solved. And so if you can get like really clear and Einstein even said something similar.

Um, and I know it's funny, we're relating Einstein to like healing, but I think it applies. Um, he said like talking about kind of his brilliance, he said, it's, it's not that I'm so much smarter. It's just that I stick with the problem longer and, and I don't know if that perfectly translates to healing, but I think there's an important principle in that, like, yeah, if we like really understand our stories and like what we've been through and like how it, We've been affected that gives us the freedom to go seek the help that we need, then leading us to hopefully put that in our past, close that chapter, move on and just thrive in life.

And then the other thing I was thinking of [00:34:00] was how the first time, um, I, you know, really experienced kind of intense, like anxiety, I didn't actually know what I was experiencing. It was, it was just like you said, it was like something I felt in my chest, but I couldn't put. a name to it. Like I knew I was like worried or I knew that I was just didn't feel like at peace, but I didn't know like, Oh wow, you're going through like really intense anxiety right now.

So having the language now gives me a bit of like power over it and like freedom of like, okay, if I experienced that again, then I know what I'm experiencing. So I can then do things or get help. They'll help me kind of counteract that.

Jordana: Yeah. The power in the self mastery, I think is another. big element of that because if you, if it's nameless, you don't know what it is.

It's like, okay, well, how am I, how am I going to harness this? How am I going to move forward? It's just kind of something that feels out of my control and it's just going to keep happening because I can't, you know, put a name to it. I can't, I don't know what solutions are there if there's no name for it.

So I think that actually the medical analogy was, was very, was very apt for that.

Joey: Good. I'm glad that's always been helpful for me because I think when we talk about like emotional healing, [00:35:00] it can be kind of elusive and abstract and I think it's helpfully compared to something that a lot of us like understand better.

Good stuff. I was curious to if there were any particular books, podcasts or other content that have helped you the most.

Jordana: Yeah. Well, certainly your podcast. Um, I remember finding your podcast, uh, very early, uh, this year actually. And, um, I think, you know, actually same for me. It gave me a lot of language also made me feel not alone because I'm hearing other people's stories of similar things that I've been through and it just helps so much, you know, again, with the language and people understanding you, it helps you to feel not so isolated.

And, uh, I was really, really very grateful to the abiding together podcast with sister Mary and James and the restore the glory podcast with Dr. Bob shoots and Dr. Those were just very formational in. My healing journey, especially as of late, I would say in the past couple of years. Um, you know, listening to them talk about how to live healthy, listening to them and their honesty with their [00:36:00] struggles as well, you know, just keeping it very, very real.

And, but at the same time, you know, acknowledging how difficult it is to just, you know, live in general. Um, so yeah, I would say that those. Those certainly. And, um, also by Father Jacques Philippe. Um, I already forgot the, the title of the book. We just talked about it right before recording. Um, but it's about surrender, surrendering to the Lord.

I think that that was like, that was just very eye opening, like maintaining peace and surrender. It just, it shifted my entire spiritual life. It shifted a lot about my mindset and how I approach, uh, you know, difficult things that kind of life throws at you

Joey: and there's plenty of those things. Um, and I think that, you know, Book's name is searching for maintaining peace or peace of heart, something like that.

We'll, we'll link to it in the show notes so you guys can pick it up. And I, I was just saying, um, before we were recording, we were talking about that book and how influential it's been on me and I've read it multiple times and just cause I've needed a different periods in life. It's really been helpful when I've kind of been going through [00:37:00] seasons of like uncertainty or anxiety, like worry that just has brought a lot of peace.

So, and I know you can relate to that. So beautiful and love those podcasts, like great suggestions and definitely recommend everyone listening. Um, check those out if you're looking for more content on healing. Um, what about people? I'm curious what people like for their friends, mentors, whoever have helped you the most?

Jordana: Oh, man, there's actually there's so many I couldn't even bring them all up but Yeah, there's been so many people in all of the different seasons that i've gone through in the past six years people from my newman center, you know, whether it was campus ministers or Uh, you know the priests that were there Priesthood in my parish and just very good.

I thank the Lord every day, man. Like he's really blessed me with the people that he's put in my life, you know, just friends who are also growth oriented, friends who are able to have vulnerable conversations and are passionate about, you know, in the same way as me about, you know, just being better and, you know, living a virtuous life.

You know, I have very, two very close friends that come to mind right now where I'm able to [00:38:00] have those conversations with them. And one of those friends is about 10 years older than me. And, you know, we have conversations like this all the time and she's able to lend me some of her wisdom, you know, being a little bit older than I am and it's just, it's beautiful.

So God is, God is really, really good in that area.

Joey: I love that. And, um, no, I think that's probably been the most influential thing, like the content. has been helpful. Therapy has been helpful, but I think like my relationships with my mentors, like you said, has probably been the most like transformative and healing thing for me too.

So I love that you mentioned that. Did you go to therapy? And if so, what was therapy like for you?

Jordana: Yeah, so I've been in therapy for a couple of years. It was, you know, the actual going to therapy wasn't a struggle for me. Well, after I got over the hurdle of, you know, kind of not feeling like doing it. But the actual like talking about what was bothering me and talking about, you know, where I was struggling, thankfully it was not a challenge for me because I just wanted a solution so bad.

You know, I was like, okay, what do we need to do? You know, what are, where do I need to work on these things to, you know, be better? And so [00:39:00] that was like a really good experience. Like I said, it helped me to communicate and express, you know, what I was actually feeling and, you know, made me, you know, a lot more well spoken, which was, which was really nice.

And it was good to just have a space. I'm sure anyone who's gone to therapy can relate to this, you know, hopefully it was good therapy, you know, having just a space to be able to talk about all of those things, because I didn't feel like I had that, you know, growing up. And, you know, I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that as well.

Just a lot of people don't know how to receive vulnerable things well, right? And so having that space in therapy to be able to talk about that and just, you know, You know, let them, the person on the other side just let me be and exist, you know, is, is healing in itself. So, and I think those are probably the biggest ways that therapy's impacted.

Joey: If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level and makes your brain [00:40:00] healthier, according to neurobiologists.

Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally. Significant events in their lives or less depressed, they're less anxious, they're healthier, and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the same path that you're on, but a bit far behind you, uh, to just hear your advice and to hear your story since they're going through things that you've been through.

And so if you wanna share your story, just go to restored ministry.com. Uh, you can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous. if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restored ministry.

com slash story, or just by clicking the link in the show notes. I like that. I was listening to another podcast. Um, it was actually, it was, um, a pastor of all things at a hospital talking about how like their presence is meant to be like a nonjudgmental comforting presence. And I think that's like kind of describes a therapist for me in a lot of ways.

It's just like, they're there to like kind of walk with you, you know, not judge you. And hopefully even challenge you to grow. [00:41:00] I, that's, I guess the one thing I would add is like the best therapists I've had are ones that not just like are mirrors and are, they reflect everything back to you, but it's more like they see what you're saying.

They see like your struggles and then they challenge you to be better, to do the things that are necessary to move from like where you are to where you want to be in life and whatever arena. Do you remember the type of therapy you've done? I don't mean to get too technical with that, but I'm just curious if you remember.

Jordana: Yeah, no, not at all. I think that's actually very important. So I was doing just regular talk therapy. Um, at first I think it was, you know, very cognitive behavioral therapy focused, you know, where you acknowledge the negative thoughts and then you try to replace them with positive thoughts. more healthy, positive, uh, thoughts.

So it's kind of like a thought rewiring process. Um, and interestingly enough for me, that only helps for so long because you can only battle with your thoughts for a long enough time where it's like, okay, this doesn't really work anymore. Um, and then, you know, most recently I have kind of delved into EMDR therapy, uh, mixed with some IFS.

So that's eye movement therapy. Desensitization, [00:42:00] reprocessing therapy and internal family systems. And it just kind of gets like more practical, at least that's how it felt for me, you know, it was just kind of getting to, okay, you're having these thoughts where we were in the cognitive behavioral realm, but it's like, why are they, why do they keep occurring, you know, and where exactly are they coming from and why are they still coming up, you know, after this, all this time of you trying to replace them with these other thoughts.

Um, and so that has been, that was really, really helpful. Very eye opening. And yeah, it's just, it's like deep work, you know, you're kind of like, instead of just like trimming the grass on top, you're like digging with a shovel underneath and you're like, Oh, these roots are here. That's why these weeds keep growing.

Um, yeah, that's kind of how it felt.

Joey: Wow. No, that's fascinating. And, um, no, we need to, we talked recently about, um, internal family systems, but the EMDR, I'd love to know more about that. I've heard bits and pieces, but I really don't know much about it at all. Um, What are the therapy sessions like with that?

Jordana: Sure. Yeah. So. I did only a couple. She was mostly [00:43:00] IFS focused, but, um, so EMDR is very memory focused, at least in the experiences that I had. Um, so I'm certainly going to not explain this as well because I'm not a psychologist or a scientist, but the science behind it is when your eyes are moving in a bilateral direction left to right.

Um, Your brain is more able to access long term memories. Uh, and so what happens is, uh, we were doing this virtually. So she had a dot on the screen and it was moving left to right. And she was like, okay, we were talking about a specific memory. And she said, think about that memory. And I want you to watch the dot.

So you just kind of like sit there for like 30 seconds. You're watching the dial. You're thinking about the memory and then she stops it. And she asks, okay, you know what, what was coming up for you? While you were doing that. And, you know, maybe some more specific details about the memory will come up or feelings that you were feeling in that moment.

Um, and then so she does like a couple more times where you're thinking about the memory and she adds like another layer to it. The second time she said, okay, now picture yourself in that memory. Like you, your present self now picture yourself in that memory [00:44:00] and we're going to watch the dot again. Right.

And so that kind of like makes it a little bit more intense. Like, you know, what would, what are you feeling, you know, watching yourself in that specific memory. And then the last, you know, One was kind of like, you know, what would you say, how would you offer your help to yourself in that memory or what would you have done in that situation if you now were in that memory, if that makes sense?

Joey: Yeah.

Jordana: So it's very, it's very interesting. And, you know, by the end you kind of, I felt, you know, a little bit of a weight lifted off and I felt it kind of, it creates this compassion for yourself, you know, it's a kind of encouragement to give yourself some grace.

Joey: Yeah, and it sounds like it's based in like brain science and neurobiology, which is fascinating, something to do with like memories and maybe trauma and things like that, like kind of making it so they don't affect your day to day life as much, because that was one of the things we were talking with Dr.

Peter Malinowski in a previous episode about how your subconscious is. Really rules your life in so many ways. And what we see below the surface, like what we perceive of each other is really the tip of the iceberg, like 90 percent of who we are [00:45:00] and like why we do what we do is like below the surface and often like unconscious.

And so, um, that's, it sounds like that's like what it's getting after is trying to kind of correct. Some of that like unconscious is, is that right? Or is that off base?

Jordana: Yeah, that's absolutely the thought behind it. Yeah. It's getting out the shovel and, you know, digging underneath and getting to the, to the roots of the weeds.

Joey: Cool. Okay. That, that makes sense. Huh? Yeah. Thanks for explaining it. What again, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, what kind of ongoing or recent family challenges have you faced?

Jordana: That's a good question. Actually, I feel like in this season that I'm currently in, uh, my family's kind of the most, you know, everybody's doing pretty well.

Um, you know, it's kind of the most stable that we, I think, have all been since the divorce, which is just a, an enormous blessing and I'm so grateful for that. I think that, you know, the most recent challenge was really helping out a couple of my siblings through, uh, mental health challenges, you know, trying to figure out how to be there for them, you know, and, and of course, it was, Some, some elements were because of childhood things [00:46:00] or because of the divorce, but, uh, also just the problems that the divorce created, you know, leading to certain behaviors, if that makes sense.

Um, so I think that, that was probably like the most recent challenge was kind of helping them through that, you know, like, how do I be there for them through that, you know, I'm at this stage in my healing personally, and, you know, how do I get to where they are and support them through that without, you know, Pressuring them without making them feel like I'm not, you know, understanding what they're going through.

Joey: What did you learn through that process? Like another way to say it is yeah What did you learn and what advice would you offer to maybe someone listening right now who? Is going through something similar like they have a family member or even a friend who is going through some struggles Maybe related directly or indirectly to the breakdown of their family their parents divorce Um, yeah, i'm curious like what did you learn and what wisdom would you pass on?

To help them help that person.

Jordana: Sure. Yeah. I don't know. I actually know if I have a very good answer to that because I still feel like I struggle in that area. You know, it's, it's, it's common. It's like, you know, somebody who's going through so much distress and you want to [00:47:00] help, you want to offer a solution, but you know, a solution is not necessarily what they need.

I think my biggest piece of advice really would. Be to just, and this may sound cliche, but just be there for them, you know, make them, make them really know that you are not going anywhere, you know, that you, if they want to talk about anything at all, like you're going to be there for them and you're available and have the capacity to listen to them and, uh, support them through what they're going through.

Joey: I love that. And that's not bad advice at all. I think that's a beautiful principle that we often forget, especially men. Like I'm the worst at it. Cause it's like, Oh, we're so, and in some

Jordana: men,

Joey: I feel like men were more. Yeah. I can certainly be

Jordana: that way. I know that.

Joey: Yeah. Yeah. No, like we, we, we, Probably like the problem solver personality of like, Hey, I know what we need to do to fix this.

And like, yeah, but it's not about fixing the thing. It's more about, yeah, just like being with the person. And this one, uh, psychotherapist, Megan Devine, she talks about how when people are going through difficult times, like when they're grieving, a lot of times we're tempted to [00:48:00] try to like cheer them up and to try to like help them to see the bright side of it or to kind of like move past it maybe faster than they should.

And, um, she says that like the most powerful healing, helpful thing you can do is just like kind of enter into the mess with them and just be with them, just like you said, and that alone is going to help them way more than coming up with the perfect solution, which is so counterintuitive and something that I know is frustrating for me sometimes to do.

But, but that's what people need in that moment. They need the empathy and the empathy, just kind of being, I remember Brene Brown talking about that. Like the difference between sympathy and empathy is like, If your friend falls in the water, like off of a boat, sympathy is like throwing them, like, you know, uh, a life like vest or something.

It's like, Hey, sorry, you fell in like, good luck. Empathy is like jumping in the water with them, just being there in the midst of it and the messiness. And I think there's something like so powerful with that. And, um, not, not to say you can't offer solutions or that you can't, you know, try to help them like out of the mess or.

move forward, get the help that they need a hundred percent. But there's [00:49:00] something about like, even while they're going through that, being the presence in their life, that is just kind of that rock that found, you know, that, um, not necessarily the foundation, cause they need to learn to stand on their own two feet.

But, um, but at least there is like a stable presence and helping them kind of get back on their feet and walk. Walk by themselves, if that's making sense. Anything you'd add to that?

Jordana: Yeah, I think it's kind of a moment to moment thing, kind of like you're looking at your life through seasons. You can kind of look at that situation through moments, right?

There's a moment where they just need support. There's also a moment where, you know, you kind of need to help them pick themselves back up. And cause we never, like you said, we never want people to stay stuck, but, uh, you know, it's just kind of like having prudence to assess what moment needs, what, uh, remedy, I suppose.

Joey: I like that. That's really wise, the moment. So I think that makes sense. Cause yeah, and I think there is a point even in like the grieving process where, I know I've faced this in different situations where we might be tempted to just stay there forever. And even if we've like gone through grieving, we might just feel tempted to like stick in that kind of victim mentality space.

And we, and those moments, in my opinion, we need to [00:50:00] be challenged. So we need to kind of be shaken a little bit and be like, okay, like now what, now what are you going to do? This, this really difficult thing happened and not in like a harsh way, but I think we all need to hear that at some point in grieving.

I don't know the exact like timeline or what, how that looks, but, um, hope to have more answers for you guys on that. But yeah, I think there's something to that. So I love that idea of like seasons or moments of like, they need this now and they'll need this later.

Jordana: Yeah. Yep.

Joey: Really good stuff. Though we are always.

a work in progress. Um, how are, are you in your life better now that you've, you know, put some effort into healing and growth?

Jordana: Yeah, that's a great question. I think that, I mean, my biggest area of struggle was always communication. And I think that's the biggest area that I've improved in. Thanks be to God.

Um, you know, I'm able to kind of take a pause if I need to, you know, express something. I'm able to have language to, uh, talk about things and it's just like such a, it's such a barrier removed, especially in relationships. You know, where I was kind of putting up a wall for vulnerability and intimacy and, [00:51:00] and now it's a lot more removed.

And it certainly wouldn't be that way. I don't think if I hadn't sought out, you know, all of the, the help and, and received that help that I have.

Joey: I love that. And, um, have there been tactics too and things you've learned about better handling anxiety or is that, yeah, I'm just kind of curious of the growth there.

Cause you seem to have grown a lot there as well. If, if I'm not judging that wrong.

Jordana: Yeah, no, you're certainly right about that, because, you know, like I said, I was just constantly living in this like bodily and mental tension all of the time that really just, it was a combination of a lot of things, a combination of time.

It was a combination of, you know, practicing just basic skills, like deep breathing, uh, creating times of rest for myself, you know, taking hold of my thoughts and definitely like prayer. I certainly can't leave that, um, out of this. Uh, you know, like I said, the book about peace and surrender by father Jean Philippe.

That, like, type of spirituality completely shifted how anxious I was feeling. It was, it was pretty incredible. Um, but yeah, all, all of those factors really went into that. And I'm, [00:52:00] again, so grateful to God for that because it's such a miserable way to live. It really is.

Joey: No, it is. I think, yeah, it's even hard to see clearly when you're in the midst of it, like we were talking about before.

So I'm really happy for you to, you know, have a more self mastery over that. That's like really beautiful. And in terms of the communication, you're an awesome communicator. Like this has been a great interview and I, um, even working with you for as long as we have been now, basing it off of what you described and struggling in communication, you've been awesome.

So I can attest to that. I appreciate that

Jordana: very much. I'm glad that you can see the fruits. That's all I could hope for.

Joey: Yeah, no, it's a really good thing. Like even, you know, just good questions you've asked or the way you phrase things, it's never rude, but it's always like, Hey, you know, I need some clarity here, like, Hey, what do I do in this situation?

Or, you know, how can I like help this person or whatever? So I think it's, yeah, you definitely, it's cool to see the growth there. And I know that you're still in that trajectory to grow even more, which is beautiful and we're here cheering you on, of course, if you could, um, speak to your parents, shifting gears a little bit, if you could speak to them honestly about, you know, everything that's happened, what would you want them to know?

What would you say?

Jordana: [00:53:00] Yeah, well, it's certainly a loaded question. Um, I don't know, I think I would just want them to know that. You know, how, how much I consider all the things that they've been through, and maybe they don't realize how much, you know, their, the experiences of their lives have shaped them into who they were and who they, you know, still are now.

And, um, I guess I would, I would just want to like emphasize the importance of that, the importance of taking a look at yourself and the things that you have been through and try to like connect the dots and see, you know, where, where is that impacting you in your life now? Cause I, you know, I think that's just at the root of our whole, all of our stories, you know, in my whole family.

Joey: appreciate that honesty. And I just want to thank you for your overall honesty and vulnerability in this conversation. I've learned a lot from you and I know everyone listening has too. So thank you for being here. Thanks for going through this. I am. Just encourage everyone to check out the resources that Jordana mentioned.

We'll link to all that in the show notes so you guys can check them out. And, uh, Jordana, in closing, thanks [00:54:00] again. Uh, just want to give you the final word. And that question is, you know, what advice or encouragement would you offer to the younger you who's perhaps listening right now?

Jordana: Keep going. I think the hope is, you know, hope is the anchor, right?

Like, that's what kept me moving forward. Just the, the optimism, you know, just kind of like a realistic optimism, right? Where, you know, I know things might not be great right now and they might not get better soon, even, even if I wanted to, but, you know, it will be. better. And I can certainly say that from my own life.

Um, yeah, just, you know, keep, keep trudging through, keep walking through, you know, with your rain boots in the mud. Essentially, that's how I feel sometimes. But yeah, just keep the hope, keep trudging through, like it does get better.

Joey: That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your podcast app.

Not only is it the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more apps we'll [00:55:00] suggest our show to people who are looking for help, and it only takes a few seconds. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show that also helps other listeners to find the podcast.

In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. We're here to help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Restored 7/30/24 Restored 7/30/24

#128: Abuse Led to My Parents’ Divorce | Emma

Emma was 14 years old when her parents divorced, but the dysfunction at home had been happening for years. In this episode, she shares how the dysfunction, divorce, and abuse have affected her.

Emma was 14 years old when her parents divorced, but the dysfunction at home had been happening for years. In this episode, she shares how the dysfunction, divorce, and abuse have affected her. We also discuss:

How she overcame victim mentality
How abuse differs from bad behavior
What helped her heal and how her life is better now as a wife and mother

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Email Emma: injoyfulpraise@gmail.com

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Start Talking to Your Kids about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: [00:00:00] Emma was only 14 years old when her parents divorced. But the dysfunction at home had been happening for years. And in this episode she shares how that dysfunction, how the divorce and even the abuse. She endured has affected her. We also discuss. How she overcame victim mentality, how she felt tempted to that, but it was able to overcome it. Uh, we also talk about how abuse differs from just bad behavior.

Uh, she also shares why abusers do what they do, and also why it's hard to put emotions like anxiety and depression into words, especially when you're in the midst of it. And then also what what's helped her heal and how her life is now better. So she has a wife and a mother, really beautiful transformation.

Stay with us.

Welcome to the restorative podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken family. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Parnelli. This is episode 128.

We're so thrilled, the hair that so many of you have found the podcast and even our other resources, like our book, a helpful, and even healing for lots of great feedback. Uh, one reader of our book said this. I'm currently reading your book. It's not your fault and absolutely [00:01:00] loving it. It's been such an answered prayer and as such a gift, thank you for your hard work. Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing.

We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Blackstone films and a recent survey by Adobe 98% of gen Z and 91% of millennials said video as their top content choice. Uh, it's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that are using video content, especially in your marketing.

If you're like most of us, you know, you need to do that. You know, you need to create video content, but maybe you don't know where to start. You don't know. who to hire. You know, you don't know who to work with, how to do it yourself. And all of that can leave you kind of feeling overwhelmed to the point where you just go back to what, you know, what's the most comfortable, even if that isn't what's best for your situation, but that's where Blackstone films can help you.

There are Catholic film and video production company. Uh, that creates films that make you feel they can create things like trailers, promo videos, and commercials, social media videos, documentaries. fundraising videos and [00:02:00] even courses, we actually produce two video courses with them and had an excellent experience.

Whatever you need. Blackstone is obsessed. About helping you not just create video content, but create a clear win. For your business or your ministry such as fundraising for your event, selling a course, getting leads for your business, getting students to sign up for your school. Uh, promoting your event and so much more Blackstone has reached millions around the globe with their videos and they can help you. Too.

And so to view their past projects and the services that they offer are just contact them, go to their website, Blackstone films, dot co not.com, Blackstone films that CEO, or just click on the link in the show notes.

I guess it is Emma. She's a child of divorce and a survivor of domestic abuse. Uh, she was a cradle Catholic, but found a deeper relationship with God. In the midst of her parents lengthy. Divorce. She will soon publish her book on discovering identity and Christ and moving through victim hood to a life of victorious joy, and the strength of God.

She received her [00:03:00] BSN. From Franciscan university of Steubenville and is now using her degree. And, uh, pro-life centers, helping women, especially in the situations of abuse and a crisis pregnancies, things like that. Um, above all else, she is living her dream of marriage and motherhood. I just want to say that there is some mature content in this episode.

And so if you're listening with kids around, you might want to throw in some earphones. Also, we do talk about God and faith in this episode. And if you don't believe in God, You're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while, knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast.

And so wherever you're at. I'm really glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge too would be this. Just listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit a lot from this conversation.

With that. Here's my conversation with that, man.

Emma, welcome to the show.

It's so good to have

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: is so good to be here. Thank you so much.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: When I read your story. Yeah, absolutely. When I read your story on our blog, I knew immediately I wanted to interview you. So I'm really happy that you're here. I know you have a heavy story. There's a lot to go through. And so I wanted to kind of go back in time to before your parents divorce. I'm curious what was like, what was life like at home and the years [00:04:00] and months before your parents

split?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: that's such a question because there are so many layers to it. I think the biggest layer is that, this was the family that I grew up in. And so I didn't know anything else. So I kind of tell people that your parents are the gold standard when you're a child, right? Like, you don't expect anything different.

And so when your house is a abusive household and everyone's walking on eggshells and discipline, quote discipline, is really like physical abuse, you expect it's like that for everybody. And so,

Yeah, I, I think another other layer to it was that, everybody really, really respected my family. Um, My mom comes from a very well known Catholic family who's highly respected.

my dad came from kind of a questionable background. We didn't, we actually still don't know much about his life. At least we're not sure what was true, what was not true. Um, but my [00:05:00] dad, kind of became like a very well liked person and everyone was Loved being around him. He was the life of the party.

I kind of noticed like he's a little bit of a different person around our family barbecues. Like we, as a family are happy when we're around other people. So growing up, I just kind of thought like, okay, you know, everyone has their struggles at home, like we all talk about. Um, but struggles for us were so vastly different than struggles for other people.

So I just assumed, you know, this is life. Like, you know. Um, sometimes you are abused, which the word abuse, we can talk more about this later. Um, I think as a child you expect that abuse is like someone's holding a gunpoint to your head. Someone is burning you with cigarettes. Like you expect these dramatic things to be happening every day and that's not always the case.

You know, there's things like gaslighting and manipulating and verbal abuse, which is usually very, very, hard on children, but they don't have the words. [00:06:00] to tell anyone else what they are feeling or going through because they expect, okay, it was my fault. Um, and so, you know, I, I really am not enough. so that's kind of the, the umbrella story of like what it's like at home.

Um, it's mostly just the fact that You don't know any different and you don't understand that what you're living in, even though you're going to church every Sunday, you're very well respected family, that it might actually still be abusive.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think there's a lot of, um, or there, there are families. I don't know the number, but there are certainly families in that situation where they put on like this good facade. I think maybe every family to some extent does it. But like you said, there's some where it's so vastly different to life at home and the life the public eye or at least in like your community is like very, very different.

I remember you and I were talking separately about the saying that the Germans have, it's, I forget the exact German, but it translates to an angel on the street and a devil

at home where you have like people or parents [00:07:00] who can give this great impression, can be really nice and well liked, like you said, and then at home, they can be totally different person, very, very dark and

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I think another point to that is that, when someone is a very like charismatic, outgoing, kind person out on the streets, you're more likely to sweep things under the rug that you might notice as like a yellow flag, like in the way that they talk to their children or discipline them in public.

it's not something that you're, you know, willing to think, I should think more about that. Um, about what I saw because you like them and they have the same views as you, the same values, the same like political leanings, like the way that you say that you're raising your children is the same that they say they're raising their children.

So when you see something, instead of saying something, you kind of doubt yourself, but that's kind of what an abuser wants you to do is they deceive and all they're wanting is love in all of their actions, which is, I've come so far in the ability to actually say that because when someone is being [00:08:00] abusive, all they're looking for is respect and admiration from what they probably didn't get from their parents.

And so

They try and hide the parts of themselves that they can't even bear to look at so that everyone else around them can give them the feelings of respect, admiration, and love.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Wow, I want to go deeper into that a little

bit later because that's amazing that you're what you've given what you've been through able to say that now it shows like a lot of growth and transformation, which is really beautiful

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: all grace.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Because I imagine Yeah I imagine you know years ago would have been really really difficult to even admit that an abuser is just looking for love and It almost seems like they're trying to like squeeze love out of these situations by forcing people to maybe do what they want and having control on whatever else, as opposed to as a healthy person would do, it's just receiving love that people give to them.

So we'll get deeper into that, but I wanted to kind of continue on the story. So what led your parents to separate and divorce?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. So out of respect for my mom, I'm not going to share everything, but, [00:09:00] um, clearly abuse was probably the biggest thing. And I think for a long time, probably, it took them 15 years of marriage to, to reach a point of separation. But, um, for my mom, I think most of that time she was in denial of the fact that it was abuse and she always thought it was her fault.

so obviously the abuse was probably the biggest thing, but then also, she hasn't told me everything, but, um, she has told me that, um, there was a certain point in time and a couple of things all happened at the same time where, um, a priest asked her to come, see her after confession.

And he asked her about her safety. A family member asked her like, what's going on. You look. You look sick, um, was what they had said. And then my mom got a phone call from someone to tell her about something that they had found out about my dad. So, um, and this someone was like, not part of the community.

It was just, you know, I'll just leave it at that. So, um, those three things, um, as far as I know, I'm sure there's more kind of led to, my mom realizing like, okay, my children are at risk. I'm at risk. And she [00:10:00] thought maybe I'm sure maybe she thought she could continue living on, but the fact that she had children changed it.

So I think the divorce and separation was really about protecting the family.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And that makes sense. And that's the situation where, I know there's like such a nuance conversation that we try to have on this podcast about it, but that's a situation where something needs to happen. There needs to be a split to, for the safety of the spouse and the children.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, it's, unfortunately sometimes healthier for a split than to stay. and there's a really, really great, um, I think it's an article written by the USCCB and it's probably 15 years old now, but it's called when love means leaving. And I think if you're in this kind of situation, you should absolutely read all of it.

or even if you're not, it's, it's very helpful just to kind of know. And, They really lay down the foundation of, why it is, so detrimental to you as a person to keep working with someone who's not working with you, you know, to put it [00:11:00] super lightly. and, um, there are some people that are just as, as much as you want to do all of the work for them, they're just going to be on a different road.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. And I think the severity of the situation is like the most important thing in my mind because it's like, you know, kids are being abused and you're being abused. Like you need I need to get to safety. And I know the church, like the Catholic Church teaches that the goal ultimately would be to heal the family, bring the marriage back

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: we don't live in a utopia, like sometimes that's not possible. Sometimes the person, one of the people are unwilling to change and and all that stuff. but that's always a goal, but it's not always possible. And so that, that in itself kind of presents a really difficult burden for everyone involved. And the way we talk about it too, is like, yes, the separation and the divorce are still difficult and perhaps even traumatic for the children and the parents in that situation. Um, But so is living in the midst of that severe, you know, abuse and everything like that. And so it's kind of, in some [00:12:00] ways I don't really like talking about like this, but it's like the lesser of two evils, so to

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Um, and it becomes like just a necessity. And so in that situation, it's really just a legal maneuver for protection and, and it's the appropriate thing to do. And for everyone's context, uh, researchers say that a little less than 30 percent of divorces fall into this category of what they call high conflict, where there's abuse, there's violence, there's maybe a threat of death, things like that. Um, so it is substantial. There's a lot of divorces like this. The other 70, just in case everyone isn't aware is, um, what's called low conflict where there could be real problems at home in the marriage, but the children aren't in danger necessarily. Um, doesn't mean that things are good at home, but to the children, things seem fine and more or less they are safe.

Even if they're not being given the love and. the attention that they deserve. Um, but we're talking about that 30 percent today, which is really important. We don't talk about it a lot on this podcast, um, to dedicate a whole episode to it.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Yeah. I think not like it's really not talked about, very much at all. Um, like in my research in certain [00:13:00] years in the past few years, um, of just trying to find Catholic resources for people who, are living in abuse, especially for children who have been in abuse, like there's almost nothing out there.

so it can be really hard, which is, When you just have to go to other things, um, such as like one of the things that gave me the most amount of hope was theology of the body. like, yeah, it's, it is about, you know, marriage and sex, but also it's about the human person. And I think that was kind of like the defining moment for me of, I think I'm being abused because like, In the beginning, he's talking about identity and personhood and like, I'm not, I'm not being treated like that.

Oh, and then it kind of created like a deeper dive into theology. and although I already had the foundation of Catholicism, throughout childhood, it just created this like spiral upwards effect almost of like trying to reach, okay, where, where is this light coming from? If that makes sense.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: absolutely. No, that's beautiful. I want to go deeper into that a little bit later, but just for everyone who maybe isn't aware, theology of the body was a series of [00:14:00] lectures basically that Pope John Paul II gave years back in It was basically a study of God through the body. And it's really just a study of like, it's looking at, um, what we're made for, um, looking at our bodies and what that tells us about kind of love and sexuality and how we ought to act and love others.

And so one of the kind of founding philosophical principles is called the personalistic norm. And I forget if he expounded on it in Theology of the Body or elsewhere, I think it was maybe more of like a love and responsibility thing that John Paul II wrote as a priest in Poland. And he said that The only adequate response to the human person is love. Another way to say that it's like we're all made for love and we deserve to be loved and What I hear you saying Emma is like you realize you weren't being loved. In fact, the it was very much so the opposite of love

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. And what's so interesting is when you dive even deeper into that statement itself is, my dad wasn't being loved because we were enabling him to abuse us. And that's not love. That's what they talk about in, um, love means leaving is how enabling completely inappropriate or abusive [00:15:00] behavior is the opposite of love because you were allowing them to fall darker and darker and into what farther from God ultimately.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: No, I couldn't agree more. And I think like, I'm curious to get your opinion on this. Why do people shy away from this? Especially in religious circles so much, because I think, and my guess would be, and I'll just throw this out there and I would love to hear if you think differently, it's totally fine. my guess is that people, yeah, maybe they. Are afraid of, I don't know, everyone calling every situation abuse and therefore like will become even more rampant. I don't know. I don't know what the motivation is, but it seems like they try to treat divorce as like this label or this experience that's the same in every situation and there's no like nuance to it.

And there certainly is nuance. That's what I've learned doing this work for years now. Like I mentioned with the broad definition of like the low conflict versus high conflict, like we can't pretend the high conflict doesn't exist. It does exist. so I don't know, I'm curious why, why do people often turn a blind eye to this?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I think. In religious settings, there's a few [00:16:00] different things. I think the biggest one is that we don't want to judge people. You know, we're not supposed to judge wrongly, um, but there is a right type of judgment. And so I think you have to find that balance. Um, I think another thing is you don't want to ruin someone's reputation.

That's like the, the sin of detraction, which keeps a lot of victims silent. Like it kept me silent for a very long time. because you know, don't, talk about. What they did to you. That's, that's their sin, but you're not pointing the finger saying like, look at their sin. You're saying, look at how I was abused.

You know, if that makes sense. and so I think we are really scared to point out other people's sins. Even if it ultimately would create safety, or for the abuser, maybe they would have a better conversion. Um, sometimes, you know, they do have to face the consequences, but it's, it's so hard because it's, it's embarrassing if you're wrong and it's, um, shameful for everyone involved.

And so it's something that's so delicate, but ultimately, [00:17:00] you know, If Christ were walking by, he would point his finger right at it and say, no, like this is wrong. You know, just like he does with the

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: No, that's a great point. And I think it's um, it's such a false like, like you said well before it's like such a false form of like love and respect and whatever else, whatever other word we throw with it to allow someone to continue doing something that's harming others. Like we need to stop them,

you know, and a lot of times, um, Like you said, there's like the whole bystander effect where we maybe expect someone else to do something or say something. Um, we, you know, so we kind of give ourselves a pass. there's a famous case in New York years ago where there were a bunch of people, if you guys aren't familiar, there's a bunch of people, um, who essentially witnessed a murder, a woman, I think being stabbed and no one did anything about it. No one yelled, no one called the police.

No one really Did I think, cause they all expected, if I'm getting the story right, someone else to do something. And so it really does. I think there's that component of it too, that, it's really uncomfortable. Like it would be really [00:18:00] uncomfortable to see, you know, maybe you're at a restaurant and someone like, you know, hit their kid and not just like. Appropriate discipline way, which I don't think you hit your kid at all, but you know what I'm saying? Like, and that may be speaking sternly to them. So they would like sit down and stop acting out or whatever, but like actually hurting them. And I don't know that. I think people kind of shy away from that because it takes sticking out your neck and kind of becoming a different type of person who just speaks up and stops bad things from

happening.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: And I think it also, you know, goes back to what I was saying earlier with like the deceit where you aren't sure if what you're seeing is actually what you're seeing. Um, especially since it's never, as bad at home as it is in public, if that makes sense. So like, You know, at home, like physical assaults were, were not common, you know, every few months maybe.

And they were, like I said, like I thought gunpoints, cigarette burns, that kind of thing. Like that's not what we were having at home, but we were still having abuse. So in public,

Even though, um, like [00:19:00] the way we were being talked to and the tone and the aggressive, uh, of disciplining that could just be like, Oh, maybe, maybe he's just having a bad day.

You know, maybe it's just maybe this is the 15th time that that kid has like, you know, asked for whatever. and so I, I think when you do see something, It's, you know, maybe you don't have to speak up right away, but I think, you know, just keeping a close eye and seeing like, what are the patterns that I'm seeing here?

Because, you know, you don't have to jump at things, but you do have to kind of pray about it and recognize like, okay, where's the pattern? What am I seeing? Are there yellow flags or red flags? You know?

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. Yeah. No, fair enough. And I think the people closest closer to the situation often can, you know, better keep a good eye on it. Like family, friends or relatives or things like that, as opposed to, I know the example I gave wasn't a very good one of being at a restaurant and observing like just one instance of it.

Cause I think you're right. The, the, the patterns are important. Right. The, the patterns are important. And I, let's go deeper into that if it's okay. Okay. [00:20:00] So. Again, I mentioned these kind of two camps that I've observed when it comes to like family dysfunction, and the one is calling Nothing Abuse, and the opposite one is calling Everything Abuse. So I'm curious, like what you've learned over the years, like how do you decipher between the two? Like what, what's just bad behavior compared to abuse? Like how, how do we draw? Is there a line to draw? How could we draw that

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: It's a tricky

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: That's such a hard question. But, um, I think anything that this is a quote that's I'm, that I'm paraphrasing from Pope John Paul II. It's anything that does violence to the essence of the human being. So, for example, like, I'm not going to share that much detail, but I will share this because this was probably one of the biggest turning moments for me was my dad, just for this example, um, you know, I didn't set the table the way he wanted me to and it escalated into this fight where he told me that I'm going to die alone and that I'm not enough.

And so, um, That is violence to the essence of [00:21:00] my person, right? so, you know, I think a lot of people don't recognize that, um, they don't recognize verbal abuse. I think that's, that's the biggest one. Physical abuse, obviously, you know, when someone is like aggressively grabbing you or maybe like disciplining you where it's, you know, I like to say kind of like spanking and hitting are not that far apart.

And in the eyes of a child, you can't differentiate between the two. And so, like, I think you do know in your gut, though, so, physical abuse you usually know in your gut, but it's the verbal, psychological abuse that's more, like, hard to draw a line in because, you know, you can tell someone, like, I don't like the way you did that, or, like, you need to be better in this, but when you're telling someone, like, You, as a whole, are just completely not enough, or completely wrong in the way that you're existing.

That, you know, that is abusive. Um, and so, um, maybe that's not the best definition. I haven't really thought about defining it. But, um, [00:22:00] yeah, I, I like clinging on to John Paul II's words there.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. Okay. No, thank you. And I think that's, this is some, maybe we all could, um, yeah, come to some sort of consensus on it or find a good solution to this. I think it's some sort of a definition. Cause like you said, um, it's really, it's a difficult question. I've wrestled with this for a long

time. Cause you know, obviously these situations are coming up from time to time that, you know, speak with parents or young people or, you know, young adults. and, um, yeah. Yeah, it's definitely tricky. One of the things I would add that when I was like researching this a little bit, I think it's important to look at the severity of the action. Um, I think it's important to look at the frequency of it as well. And then I think it's important to look at like the impact it's having on the person.

That's kind of what I've come to. It's not a fully formed like framework, but

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: No, I really like that though. That's, that's really good, um, that's really good insight.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: okay. Yeah. I, I be curious because I know, um, What you mentioned in your article for the website was like, you've experienced kind of all levels of abuse, right? are you comfortable talking, we don't have to give specific examples. Are you comfortable talking about the [00:23:00] Um, kind of the physical and the sexual component of, or is that something you don't want to really touch on

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, I mean,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: don't need to go into any details because the, the reason I'm bringing this up is because I think it's important for people to know that we're not just talking about like one instance of, you know, your dad saying that to you at the table, which is horrible and I'm so

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: it's okay.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Um, but this, this is deeply rooted.

So if you're not comfortable with it, totally fine. Um, I just wanted to really paint a picture for people who might still be listening to us and saying like, nah, I don't really buy this whole

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I don't want to share too much detail just in case any of my siblings or anything come across this, but, um, one thing, yeah, finding, finding the, right words for describing abuse while being gentle is hard. but, um, with the physical abuse, um, You know, it could be something like, um, happening every few months, really not that often you'd think, but, um, just stinking or whipping with a belt that would be so aggressive that like, you couldn't sit down for a few days, um, but you are [00:24:00] disciplined, like you think it's your fault.

So, yeah, I think that's where it gets hard is it's discipline, but it's not properly ordered. It's coming from a place of anger and hatred. And it's so aggressive that it's, it's not just, making the child recognize, Oh, okay. I did something wrong. It's recognizing, or it's, it's the child making them think that it's okay to, to treat me like this.

so yeah, sorry. That's not a very good definition, but

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: No, no, no, no. That's helpful. And I don't mean to put you on the spot. The

reason I'm kind of pushing there a little bit is because I think it's like helpful for people, especially if someone finds himself in that specific situation they'd be able to kind of draw the line between like, Oh, I'm a saying this and I'm experiencing this.

Maybe that's the

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I guess what I would say then is if there is someone out there who is experiencing, um, physical aggressiveness at home, Are you feeling like, you know, if you're being like spanked, for example, I mean, obviously whoever's listening to this probably is way too old to be being spanked. So if you are, that's, you know, [00:25:00] that's a sign right there.

Um, but you know, it's, I personally don't believe in spanking because of my past, but I think If it's coming from a place of like, they are just knee jerking their reaction, and they are like, maybe stripping you down naked while they do that, like, that's, that's another sign of abuse. Um, if, you know, it's so aggressive that it's like, physically hurting for a long time, that's, that's another sign.

Um, so like, these things, like these

Physical assaults might not leave any marks, but they're still brutal. And like, it also can be, the fear of like, maybe they'll change their stance and you know, they can hit me if they want to. Um, that's another thing is like, it's a control thing.

So, you know, it's like, they'll do one thing just once. And forever, you know, that can happen again.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay. Yeah. Great. I know it's kind of menacing and that makes a lot of sense. Okay. Well, thank you. And again, I know, um, both of us want to kind of get to put [00:26:00] language to this for people. So I'm excited to hear your future work and the book you're going to come out with, because I think it's really needed back a bit to your story. how old were you or how old are you now? And how old were you when your parents separated

and divorced?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: so I'm 24 now. I was 14 when they initially separated.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay. Yeah. And, um, definitely tender years, difficult years, and it sounds like everything your earliest memories. Do you remember things ever being kind of stable and good at home? Or was it always kind of this really tumultuous

time for you

guys?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: it was always hard. but I think that's also, you know, the fact that there were some good times makes you think that, okay, maybe we're not living in abuse because we're also having good days and like, You know, while laughing with each other.

But, um, there was always like a holding of the breath, if that makes sense, um, you know, my mom has spoken of how every family outing at the end of it, someone's in the back of the car crying cause they know they're about to get, uh, in trouble when they get home. Um, my [00:27:00] grandma once told me that, um, she came over for dinner and one of the kids made a joke and nobody laughed.

And we all kind of like looked at each other, held our breath. And then my dad laughed and then we kind of took a breath and all laughed at the same time. It was like, we all needed permission to laugh. so even though, it wasn't all of the time and there were good times and we all had, we have some family memories and traditions and stuff like that.

It was all with a sense of control.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay, yeah. The couple signs that You taught me there was like, there's seemed to be a lack of freedom. And then also kind of this feeling of like walking on eggshells, like needing to tiptoe and be very, very careful to not, you know, offend your dad and kind of disrupt the some level of peace that you guys had at home.

So that, that makes sense. I'm curious, how, how did you learn about the separation, the divorce yourself? And what was your reaction to it?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, so, they did something kind of interesting, at least it's interesting to me now, So our parish priest who helped my mom through this whole situation, God bless him, [00:28:00] um, he came over and we all sat down in the living room and he told us, you know, your parents love you very much, but they have decided to separate and your dad is going to move out for a few months.

We're going to see how it goes and then maybe he'll move back. Maybe they, and. At the time, I know my brother and I have talked about this at length, um, you know, we found it really damaging. Like, why is it someone else that's telling us this? Now, we realize that was for safety purposes, because You know, if my mom had started to talk, my dad probably would have talked over her, or it could have ended up being an abusive situation, or my dad could have lied and manipulated what she did outside of the home and kind of told lies to the whole community, including, you know, us kids.

And so that priest was there ultimately to kind of buffer the situation. Um, so that's, that's kind of all how it went down. And then, um, they separated, and the day of, I knew like, no, they're, they're not going to get back together. Uh, this is going [00:29:00] to be forever. Um, and I had actually started praying that they would separate because I felt so not at ease.

Um,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Because yeah, it was, it was not very good. So, um, they separated and then eventually it ended up being a lengthy, lengthy, lengthy divorce and then an annulment.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay. All right. And Thank you for sharing all that. I just want to make a side note, I'm glad that you and your brother have talked about this stuff. I think a lot of siblings and families don't talk about it after the fact, which is really beautiful. I know we're going to get into

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: of been helpful in healing for you, but um, it sounds like that's been really good. And then the other thing I think it can often, maybe not always, but it can often be a sign of like a high conflict, family, marriage, divorce, the children are like, praying and asking for the divorce to

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Um, that that's kind of what I've noticed in these situations that I'm aware of. I'm like, okay, if the kids are like, can be like rare situations where maybe the kids like have friends who got divorced and they maybe have some sort of an influence where they're kind of [00:30:00] taking that and kind of projecting on to their family, even though it's not an appropriate response for that situation.

Again, I'm talking like low conflict where this abuse and stuff isn't happening. by and large, I've seen that if a kid's like praying and desiring and thinking about it a lot, um, it seems to me that it is a sign often that it's a high conflict

situation. Have you

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah, definitely. Um, I mean, and I didn't know anyone that had been divorced. And in fact, like I remember the night that I started praying that like I was horrified at myself for praying that, but I was also just so scared. and you know, I knew like, wow, we're gonna, we're going to be really judged and like, we're going to be, outcasts if this happens, but like, I'll feel safer.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, definitely the case.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Wow. Man, I'm so sorry. You went through so much. Um, what was life like for you The separation, the divorce. So like during, you know, from that day on till the legal proceedings stopped. And I know you mentioned the annulment too, which we can get into, but yeah, I'm curious, [00:31:00] what did life look

like for you?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Um, I think the first

six months or so, I was just so depressed. you know, I had no energy. I couldn't, I could hardly do anything at all. and then about six months in on the feast of St. Teresa of Lisieux, um, my little tiny Catholic school, um, had a relic of hers and we had like a little mass and procession and I just reached out to God and I asked him for a sign.

Um, and he, He came through, I asked for a sign. Um, I, I'll, I'll just share the whole story. So, um, I was, you know, really struggling with the idea of marriage. And I kind of was thinking like, it's not real, like it never is going to work out for anybody. and I kind of remember looking up at the statue of St.

Jerez and St. And the Blessed Virgin right next to each other with this tiny little relic below them. And I just prayed, God, if I can just grow up and have a Wonderful and beautiful marriage. Please send me roses today. And, I'm gonna cry, uh, later that day, my [00:32:00] mom gave me like two dozen roses, so. Yeah, so, um,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: What a story.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, really fun story there.

And, you know, I'm really careful with signs. That's the only time I've ever asked for a sign in my life. Um, but I think it came from that childlike place in my heart that was just begging for life. so, after that I, um, immediately went downstairs and grabbed all the books on marriage I could find, which is how I found Theology of the Body, because I just kind of went through the searching period of like, okay, what is marriage?

I started observing all of the families at church, like, okay, they clearly are in love and they have like a thousand children. How are they making that work? Like, yeah. So I just kind of took a deep dive. And, I. You know, was still being abused and still extremely depressed and anxious, struggling with eating problems.

but I clung to God and I just, I placed myself at the foot of the cross and I would use my imagination to, [00:33:00] just see all of these wounds that I had on my body, all these thorns and I'd pluck a thorn in my imagination and place it at the foot of the cross and it would sprout into a flower. And that's just those little childlike prayers.

brought me through. And so, I got to be very close friends with, um, these two sisters who have an amazing family. And I spent a lot of time with my friends, um, just kind of enjoying life as a teenager, but also, um, kind of escaping my own home. Escaping the abuse, escaping my own feelings and observing how a good Catholic family, lives.

So that's kind of what life looked like for me. I was just kind of mostly avoiding all of my pain, you know, watching a lot of movies. You know, wasn't praying often. Like I wasn't up in my room, like scrolling through a Bible all the time. But, um, you know, I covered my, I did cover my walls with chalk and wrote a bunch of Bible verses that would help me through my day and, um, I would just.

You know, trying to escape through either the Word of [00:34:00] God, love of Mary, love of God the Father, which I discovered, and, um, also, you know, some volleyball or movies and just little things. And, um, it did end up, you know, not serving me super well since I was avoiding quite a bit. and I ended up, you know, going into therapy probably about seven years later, um, which was so good.

I definitely wish I had done that sooner. But, yeah, I just kind of hid behind the bubbly personality that I have, trying to escape, but also finding Christ in the darkness.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay. You went through a lot that during that time. I'm curious. about a freshman in high school when you like devoured all these books on

marriage or at least like

started looking into that. That's

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, I was. Yeah. I think some of those books were a little bit too over my head at the time, but, um, yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Some of them are still

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, it kept me searching.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Fair, fair. No, beautiful. Well, I love it. It's a good desire because I felt the same. Like when my parents split and everything came to life for us, it was [00:35:00] like, my goodness, I will never get married.

It's like, this is where love and marriage leads. Like I want nothing to do

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Exactly.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And, thankfully I learned that it doesn't always lead there.

It could actually lead to a very different, better place. So I know we're going to get into that too, but thanks for sharing all that. I'm curious. I think I know the answer to this, but I want to hear you, what you'd have to say, like, when did you realize that the dysfunction and the divorce were affecting you negatively? Because for context, some people, it takes

years, really, like truly years, years, years. It seems like you were on top of that right away. Or did

I read that wrong?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yes and no. I think, it was definitely pretty immediate, but I think I didn't recognize the full severity of everything until, probably my senior year of high school when, um, I was officially. Like out of custody with my dad. Um, so yeah, I think it took me a while. And even today I'm still discovering things about myself, like just the dark places where there's so much hurt where I'm like, Oh, Oh goodness.

I have to dive deeper into that. you know, I think you [00:36:00] have so many wounds that you don't even recognize until you're in another, either a similar situation or just like life changes and you're just kind of like, Oh, That's, that's hurting. Where's that coming from? You know? Um, so, yeah, I recognized it right away, but certainly not completely.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: No, I, I think it, you said that well, that brokenness can surface in your life in different ways. And as you get into new chapters, like you said, it's like, whether you're beginning to date and get into like serious relationships, or maybe you're engaged or you're married or you're a parent for the first time, like all those different like transitions in life, I've realized like can bring up new stuff.

And you're like, wow, I thought that was way in

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And you're like,

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: not so much. So we have to kind of revisit and deal with it. And I think there's, um, Kind of a physical analogy to it as well. I know you're a nurse and, you know, different injuries can like represent themselves if you're like doing a certain movement or a new exercise or starting to climb mountains.

And you hadn't done that before. I remember, um, I played hockey growing up and, uh, I remember after like not skating for a while, getting back in [00:37:00] the ice and like skating, I'm like, I did not even realize I had muscles in those

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: and they're like super sore and hurt. So I think, uh, a lot of times that could happen when we, you know, that brokenness resurfaces because of, you know, the new triggers, a new environment in our

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been thinking a lot about Original Sin recently and it's just, it's always with us. It doesn't leave.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. It's super

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, it is.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Um, you already mentioned depression and some kind of struggles with eating. Um, I'm curious. Yeah. What other emotional problems have you experienced and what about bad habits? Who may bail through those two

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh, yeah. Um, well, I think, one of the biggest bad habits that I actually didn't recognize at the time was the eating problem, um, where I would be starving myself and then just binge eating, usually not good food for, not good foods for me. I, yeah, I didn't recognize that until I was, like, out of it.

and

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: things was a big one. Just, like, trying to numb the pain with, like, a TV show that was just corny and stupid. [00:38:00] yeah, I, um, I think one of the big things was just the fear of abandonment that came to, um, like, I've recognized this, at least I recognized it in college drastically when I realized, like, I'll perceive someone to be in a bad mood.

I'll assume it's about me and then. I'm like, okay, I guess, I guess our friendship is over, but like, they just fail the test or something. Like, and then, you know, I'll give myself some space from them. And then they're kind of like, where have you been? I'm like, I thought we weren't friends anymore. You know, like, um, it's definitely, like a part of my character that I have to work through.

Um, and. Yeah, I think that's, I wouldn't call that a habit, but you know, it's, you know, it's um, a wound that's there. I think a lot of us children of divorce have that fear of abandonment for sure.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to dig a little bit deeper into that, into like relationships, struggles. Um, but yeah, I'm curious if there, was there any, anything else on like the emotional end that you

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah. Yeah. A lot of anxiety and depression, which I, you know, that wasn't actually diagnosed cause I was never with a therapist, but, um, it [00:39:00] was, you know, just this fog over me that was so like, I couldn't see through anything. And I just had this. overwhelming sadness, um, that, you know, it helped me cling to Christ, but it was very powerful.

And I think that another part of it was that I didn't really talk about it to anybody. And no one really asked me about how I was doing because I did have this, like, I do have this personality that I'm very outgoing and bubbly, but I was kind of hiding behind that. And so people assumed I was okay. And so I allowed myself to internally just keep getting more and more depressed and so anxious about everything.

And, Self image became a huge, huge problem for me, not just because of the divorce, but because of things that my dad was saying to me. And, it was, you know, probably, those were probably the biggest emotional problems.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: No, that makes so much sense. Thanks for sharing so, so openly, so vulnerably. One of the experiences we've kind of heard a lot about is When you begin feeling anxiety or depression, um, it can be hard to put words to it. You don't really know exactly what you're going

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: [00:40:00] Yes.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And I experienced that.

I was talking with a friend recently. We were actually, we worked together with Eversword and she was saying the same thing, uh, with, with her too. She was like experienced it for months and just didn't really know like what was going on. And it was the same for me like months. And I just, Yeah, I don't even know what I thought, but it was like pretty debilitating. so, so I think that could be a common experience. So if anyone listening right now is experiencing that, you know, maybe try to research a little bit more. Like, what are the symptoms? What are the signs? Like, what does it look like to feel depressed or anxious? So you can hopefully put some language to it.

Cause that is an immensely

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, it is. It, that's so accurate though, that it is almost impossible to describe when you're in it because like, You're almost so tired that you can't even find words, you know, I think recognizing it early on in your life will help you find it when it resurfaces, too.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: So good. Yeah. And I agree. It's been a lot easier, like you said, to recognize it now, um, for me. So another thing I just want to say, I, I use sports and like movie stories, um, to cope

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: That's interesting. I just couldn't relate [00:41:00] with you on that. Um, I, we, my siblings and I played different sports growing up, but it was definitely a kind of a helpful outlet.

And I think in some ways, I think I just want to touch on this because I think You know, I think there's some misunderstanding around this. I think that, um, those are used as a constant way to escape and never deal with your brokenness, I think that's unhealthy and wrong. Um, but if they're used as like a temporary breather, a temporary way to like kind of have a break to kind of keep your sanity, um, I think it's actually a really good and helpful thing.

Like it's better than sleeping around doing drugs. been drinking, like all that stuff. So, so I think there's something to be said about that. So I wouldn't look back at your story and be like, Oh, you played too much volleyball. And I know you're not saying I love, um, but, uh, but I think, I think there's something like that's actually good and healthy that you were able to kind of have an outlet in that.

But, um, but yeah, I'm curious if you have anything to add to that and if there was any other bad habits that kind of became a

crutch.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: you know, I'm thinking back on it, like, I feel like I didn't have any, like, truly bad habits other than, like, the eating. I think that was probably, like, a habit, [00:42:00] and, I honestly, like, I dove into painting, I would paint all the time. or I would be scrolling on Pinterest and designing my future house, like, just kind of

escaping mentally.

So, um, yeah, luckily I never fell into anything, you know, truly detrimental, to my soul, which I'm so grateful for. And I think it's partly because, um, I ended up We ended up moving into my grandma's house and she's someone who I genuinely liken to Mother Teresa. So imagine living with Mother Teresa when you're going through your biggest pains, like you can't go to bad habits.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love it. Their holiness just like spills over.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: It

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: good. Awesome. well, no, I'm glad that's such a grace and such. Like you were spared a lot,

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: beautiful. And I think it does speak to your character as well. Um, about relationship struggles? How have you struggled in relationships, especially romantic relationships?

You mentioned a little bit about kind of fearing abandonment and maybe Bailing out is maybe the word that we use of like kind of sabotaging and being like, Oh no, I'm out. I'm, this isn't going to work, but yeah. How have you struggled in [00:43:00] relationships?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: So I think the biggest one is just the, the fear of abandonment, which like, you know, I'm still working with my therapist through this where like, logically I know we're still friends. I know that they're not leaving, but internally I have this, like, I keep describing it as like a firework that's been lit and it's not going to go off.

Um, and so I'm constantly in fear of abandonment. Okay, like I didn't do XYZ. I was in a bad mood at this time. Like, okay, maybe this time will be the time where they're gonna leave. and so that's something that I've had to work through. Um, still am. It's still, you know, a problem. But, it's

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, I started going to therapy because, um, that one story with in college with my friend was kind of like an eye opener of like, Oh, Oh dear. Um, but then also just like with my now husband, when we were dating, I remember like we would get into like, you know, a normal boyfriend, girlfriend argument of whatever kind.

And I would just be so like timid and scared the whole [00:44:00] time and kind of thought like every fight was always about me. Every fight was going to And the relationship, which I think kind of goes back to when we were told about the divorce, we weren't given a reason at all. it was kind of like, you guys probably know why, um, but there was no reason given.

And so that kind of, at least in me, I don't know about my five siblings, but at least in me, it's made me think, okay, every fight could end in a divorce. Which, you know, that's not true. That's not how it goes. Everybody has fights. so, you know, when I was dating my husband, that's kind of when I realized like, Oh, okay.

I'm like not processing these things well. And I would also kind of like try and force the fight to end well in that moment. I'm like, all right, no, we got to fix this right now or else like, you know, you're going to think, you know, you're going to change your mind about me when you're by yourself processing.

That kind of thing. So, that was definitely a big problem.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: The conflict stuff is really hard for people. I

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I've struggled with it and gotten better over the years and, [00:45:00] but at times it's all kind of gone through seasons of like not handling it as well. but yeah, no, it's, it's really, it's really hard. Cause I remember Layla Miller, the author who wrote, uh, the primal loss book or edited it with, where it features a bunch of stories of children of divorce. She put words to it. She said that there's this like kind of belief that we carry around that conflict leads to permanent separation.

Conflict leads to permanent saturation. And so like, and you just said it really well in your own words. yeah. And I think like, if we think that, then, you know, like you said, we'd want to run from any sort of conflict or, you know, control it or whatever.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Especially if you're in a relationship with someone who likes to process things internally, like my husband's very logical, which I absolutely adore about him, but like at first it was so hard for me to recognize. And sometimes it still is that like, okay, even though they're thinking thoughts to themselves, like they, You know, they're not thinking like, Oh, I got to get out of here, you know?

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. Yeah. No. I remember reading, um, research where, it was, uh, the book from, uh, UC Berkeley, the [00:46:00] unexpected legacy of divorce. And she was telling a story Judith Wallerstein who studied children of torture 25 years. She's telling a story about a woman who, Um, she had a really like pleasant relationship with her boyfriend.

They ended up getting engaged, getting married. And within marriage, I don't know how long, definitely within the first year, they had like their first big fight. Like they maybe had some spats here or there, but this is like the first big fight. And her husband like needed to cool off. So he left and, um, kind of went for a walk or did something.

And so she was just left at home kind of sitting there and just being like, man, I should call a lawyer.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: this is it. Like maybe we're going to divorce. And then, you know, her husband who I think had come from an intact family, like healthy family, you know, eventually came home once kind of. The temperature had cooled and he was, you know, she told him something to that level and he's like, what? Like, no, I was not thinking that at all. I was, you know, just, I needed some space. I needed to cool off. I wanted to resolve this with you and get to the bottom of it. But it's, it's wild. That could be like such a strong knee jerk reaction that we feel so strongly that we think everyone else is thinking it

too.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, It's so great that you have this podcast for us to talk about it [00:47:00] too, because like, it's so common for kids of divorce to just assume like every fight is just, that's it. and I think, yeah, that's,

that's such a good story. Cause it's so accurate.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, you know, and it can feel so lethal to like when going into conflict. I remember for the longest time I would just like run from it and

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: and just try to be so diplomatic. And, and I kind of became known for that among my friends of being like kind of the diplomat among us wanting to like make things right and make sure everyone was like good and there wasn't any. Problems between us. but then like in romantic relationships, it's like, I can't really avoid this conflict stuff. , it's like, it, it's not really possible. Like eventually, like we're gonna disagree

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And so that became like, that was a huge source of anxiety for me and I didn't really know how to handle it.

I handled it really

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Mm hmm.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: especially within marriage. And gosh. Yeah, I just didn't know what I was doing, so we got some therapy and it was really helpful to kind of learn some tactics to deal with that, which we've done separate episodes on, um, but also just trying to like make sure that the [00:48:00] foundation is strong, that things are healthy so that, um, the majority of conflicts are reduced or at least the temperature isn't as high when, when they do

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. And I think that that's a really good point that like, you know, you, it's definitely a good thing to get marriage counseling for, um, just, just to talk about how to have an appropriate conversation when there's just even a small disagreement. just because, you know, we do, at least the children of divorce do have such a high tendency to make everything go all the way up here when really it's just right down here.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. That's a good way to say, you know, we think it's at a 10 when it's really like a four or something for, for everyone else. Yeah, totally been there. Um, Thanks for sharing so vulnerably. I could talk with you forever. I want to keep moving.

That's okay. I was curious. Um, when did you, you, you touched on this a little bit, but when did you decide to ask for help and what's been maybe the most helpful and healing and transformative, thing that has helped you become a better, a stronger you?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. So I think, um, the first,

I'm going to describe the first time as the time I reached out to God. That was probably the biggest [00:49:00] thing. Um, even though that wasn't towards a person, I think that was internally the biggest thing for me was to just put my hand out to God and say, okay, where are you? Um, and then after that, it was in small doses with my mom, just kind of telling her like what was happening over at dad's house and, she brought me to our parish priest who was So good.

I can't even just describe how kind he was to me. so that was kind of like the biggest point where I was saying I need help. But I think what was so great about it was that, in small doses with my mom, who I'm comfortable with, she brought help to me through the priest. and, um, I didn't really ask for a lot of help in specific ways, which today I really regret.

I should have told more people what was going on. but it was more so like asking my aunt, like, Hey, can we go on a walk with your dog this afternoon? And like, that became a habit. so I kind of had like a nice, healthy relationship with someone and it was, that was what I needed at the time. I think, even [00:50:00] though I still kind of regret I should have I should have at least told more people, but, at least I was finding healthy relationships and asking, you know, other friends, like, can I just stay over for dinner?

so, you know, asking for help isn't always saying I need help. Sometimes it's just like, can we hang out for a little bit? And, you know, I don't need to say anything. Can we just hang out? Walk up the hill together in quiet. And then that kind of builds a foundation of trust and, also, a place where if something were to get really, really bad, you can go to, um, and then I think the next time was probably when I started going to therapy in college.

Um, when I realized like, okay, I thought I had healed these wounds by the power of God. Not I had healed them, but the power of God, you know, had healed. And I had so much, love for, the sacrifices that I've given him. I thought that had healed me, but really I, I needed so much more work done. So that was the next big thing was going to therapy, you know, about, um, you know, About seven years post divorce.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: So you would have been

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I was,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: the early

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: [00:51:00] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. It's not, no, it sounds like those are super, have been super helpful for you, which is amazing. Were there any books or podcasts or any other type of content that were really help you helpful for you?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Uh, I have a whole list. at the time I was mostly into books. I didn't really like listen to any podcasts. I wasn't in that area yet, but, um,

I think the first one that I ever read was theology of his and her body by, Jason Everett. That was a big one.

how to find your.

Soulmate Without Losing Your Soul, also Jason Everett, um, anything by Christopher West. And, um, I actually, this is kind of a fun one. So I don't know how I came across this book, but it's called Arms of Love. And it's kind of just like a Christian, like romance novel, which sounds awful. It's so cringey, but it's, it's this really sweet, tender story.

Um, and it kind of like makes you fall in love with, like the idea of dating in a Christian atmosphere. Um, and I read that when I was probably about 13 or 14. [00:52:00] and that one actually like really helped. honestly, all of the encyclicals, I think if you're going through divorce right now, I think all of the encyclicals, especially, um, familiaris consortio and humanae vitae.

So good. because you can really see the definition of marriage and it just shines so much light everywhere. podcasts, you know, I don't, yeah, I don't think I have any podcast recommendations, but I do think that, um, something that can be also really healing is just going out into nature and listening to good music.

not depressing, sad, love story, breakup music. Like, you know, honestly, like turn on Mozart and go take a walk.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Love it. That's great. That was actually like really helpful for me too. I'm

glad you mentioned that when, uh, I remember listening not just to some classical music, but just like it, like, like you said, wholesome music that it can calm you. It can really calm you. I remember watching sunsets was like one of my kind of favorite ways to, To kind of

calm myself and

all that.

So there's a lot of good things in nature. Like you said, um, even I've noticed that with being a dad now, [00:53:00] babies, like change when they're outside. Like they could be like really upset

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yes.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: and then you take them outside and they're like,

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh my god.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: what, what is going on there? So there's something built into us.

I think that it's good to be

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: It is. Yeah, it lifts the soul. It's just you're surrounded by, you know, creation it really is, uplifting. And just, I think just there's something so powerful about fresh air, which I think we take for granted. and probably, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to get all like tree hugger on you, but like, I think honestly, just like, hearing the wind and like, I think it probably regulates your body a little bit.

So just, you know, not to be so granola, but, um, it, it really is so good for you. And like, we are made to be in creation. So do get outside.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, no, I agree. I think Catholics are kind of

hippies in some extent, to some extent, because we love nature. We love all this stuff. So good deal. Um, you already mentioned some of this, but I just want to close the loop on this too. Uh, what, what people helped you

the most?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I think biggest one, [00:54:00] my grandma, you know, living with Mother Teresa over there. my grandma was so good because she was so affirming, um, all the time. And then, there were, a few people, there was a teacher at my school who was also just like very, strong and he, without like out, like reaching out to me and asking if I was okay, just kind of made it known that, like, He was a support system if I ever needed it.

So he was really great. And then, um, my two best friends who I won't name and their whole family who just kind of took me in. Um, I was basically at their house 24 seven. Yeah, those were the best people. And then my godparents as well, who also, um, for a few of the years lived like right down the street from us.

And so, and they still do, they're, they're still within walking distance of my, my grandma's house. So, it was really. Really good to be surrounded by such good people who weren't pressing me to talk about my feelings. Um, and who were just there to support me.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love that. That's an important last point. Um, for everyone listening, who's [00:55:00] maybe trying to help someone from a broken family, what I'm just said, like make a note of that. It's really helpful. Like the principal did to know that someone's there for you when, and if you want to talk, but then it's equally important not to like press someone to like spill their emotions out to you.

So really, really good. Awesome. Powerful lessons. Anything you'd add to that?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, it is important that, you know, you can talk about things, but before you get someone to maybe talk about like if there's a suspect of abuse to just lay the foundation of a solid friendship. or, you know, if you're an authority figure, just solid foundation of, quiet, affirming care, and eventually they will come to you with their problems.

Um, whether or not they actually tell you everything that's happened to them, they will at least feel loved and known. And eventually, like I said earlier, like if things do really get bad, they will come to you. so I think just being a quiet, affirming person is the best.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love that. And [00:56:00] to me, what you just said, like you need, they need to

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yes.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: you

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yes.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And then, and what we've seen when it comes to trust is like, built through. Consistency kind of continually showing up and being there and letting them know that you're like a stable force

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Mm hmm.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Um, and then it's built also through vulnerability.

We've seen, you tend to trust people who are also open with you in an inappropriate way, right? We want it to be appropriate, not like sharing every little detail about our lives, obviously. So those two things, if you're trying to help someone, I think are really, really key to building the trust. So then the, we'll open up to you more.

So yeah, great advice. I love that and helpful for anyone who's trying to help someone from broken family, just kind of backtrack something I said before. Um, the question I was asking for everyone's context was more related to like kind of after the

fact, um, and someone maybe a young person went through their parents divorce, but in the, You know, situation of abuse.

I know we treat that a little bit differently and we'd want to be a little bit more, maybe aggressive with like rushing in and helping as opposed to just being like, Hey, I'm here if you need me. And I'm not going to force you to talk. It's like different [00:57:00] approach,

different scenario.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. I think it's definitely, um, something that, you have to use the right words because, especially young children, they're, they're not going to say the word abuse. I think the word abuse probably didn't even come to my mind until I was, like, in college.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: well,

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: so I think that's a really important note.

It was more of words like uncomfortable, scared, and like uneasy, like gentle words that are describing huge things. Because, you know, like I said, children don't always have these words for like abuse, especially like, You know, if they're, being like sexually abused, you know, just kind of trigger warning, like, you know, they aren't, if they don't have the words for even like body parts or anything like that.

And like, luckily I like, I was not actually like sexually abused physically. It was more in separate ways, which I'm not going to get into the details of, but, um,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: that's fine. Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, like if, if someone doesn't have the words to describe their own body parts or anything, like they're not going to talk to you about it because they don't have the [00:58:00] words to talk to themself about it.

So, you know, if you are going to ask a child or, um, someone if they might be abused, don't really use the word abuse because that's not their definition usually, especially because we don't always like to call ourselves abusers. Victim. and here's another note is that, um, usually if someone's actively calling themselves a victim.

Kind of like loud and proud, almost like that's, that's the abuser. that's a really important note is that, most often abusers are claiming themselves to be the ones that are, that are harmed. so use words like uncomfortable, scared, those are probably the two that I would use, because that kind of opens up the door.

So like, like what makes you uncomfortable? Like, why are you scared?

And then they can kind of describe situations or sometimes if they're really young, drawing out a picture, that kind of thing. So,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. That's good advice. Well, one of my friends, Dr. Julia Sadowski recently read a book, um, on talking to your kids about sex and I haven't read it yet, but I, my wife was telling me a little bit about, an interview that [00:59:00] she had done the Jackie Francois angels podcast. And they were talking about the importance of using like proper body parts.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah. I actually listened to that.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Good. Okay. Yeah. I was like, that's amazing. You guys like are saying the same thing. Yeah. No, it's so good. Cause um, cause I guess she, I forget, you would probably remember better, but she was saying that that can cut down on the likelihood of sexual abuse happening to children if they're able to kind of like tell their parents.

Yeah. They were, you know, touching me in this way and this body part and they know the actual language to use. Is

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think, um, maybe I have like a, um, more out there approach, but I also think that kids should probably know like curse words or bad words at a certain age. Not, you know, not super young,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Sure.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: an abuser, um, isn't going to use bad words. body part language, probably. They're probably going to say like slang.

So I think like you should probably in a very safe and controlled context. Teach your words certain slang, and just say like, if you hear this,

you come tell me and we will be so proud of you, but you need to like walk away or [01:00:00] run away and that's completely up to you and your spouse, obviously, to decide.

But I do think that recognizing that if kids don't have that language, they may not understand that it is bad language.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, okay. That's really good. I hadn't thought of that. That makes a lot of sense, though. Another tactic I've heard is for really difficult and uncomfortable topics. I forget where I heard this from, but, some parents will do this thing where they, like, write, have their kids write down what they're, want to tell them, but they're

afraid to, and then they hand, they hand it to them or write it in a book.

Book or journal or something, they give it to them. And so they have like a conversation through like writing like that. So there's never like this awkwardness of maybe needing to talk about something that was like embarrassing or

shameful, quote unquote, shameful, which hopefully, you know, you can get to a point where you could have those conversations, but especially when the kids younger, it's like, and obviously they would need to be at the point where they could like write and articulate things that way, but it could, uh, it could be really helpful. To I think, um, have some sort of a buffer. I've also heard people say, like, talk about those things when you're on a walk. So you're not facing each other. Cause it could be very intense. Look someone in the [01:01:00] eye and talk about those really like sensitive topics. Um, and the car is similar to, so cause your eyes are facing outward.

You're not looking at each

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, yeah. I think that's important is, because sometimes your emotions are bigger than you when you're a kid. And so, like, Even though you as the adult or the authority figure who is loving and caring might want the child to look at you or you want to look at them, but like, they can't handle that.

and so that was, it was similar with me and my mom. Like, um, I think a lot of the times when I was kind of just like talking with her about what I was going through, it was always like at a Panda Express, like. Outside where no one was really around and, you know, I could just look at my orange chicken, really not talk to her and take a breath in between each bite, you know?

So, little things like that makes such a big difference,

in, The ability to open up if you feel safe.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: So true. What about therapy? You mentioned you went to therapy. What type of therapy did you go to? And, um, [01:02:00] is there someone you'd recommend like a therapist that you'd say, yeah, they're

awesome. Go to them.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Um, so I, my first therapist was, it was actually like during COVID. And so it was on the phone and they were not actually in the part of the country. I was into, so it was just kind of interesting. I honestly didn't have a super great experience, but it opened up the door. So think it's been.

behavioral therapy, I think, but I'm not entirely sure.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Like more like talk

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, it's been, that's been good. yeah, and then I recently, I, I quit that, uh, right before I got married. And then after I got married I started up again with a different person, in person and that's been so good. And I'm really glad I'm in it now, but I'm sad I didn't start when I was 14.

I probably should have started back then, um, would've saved me probably a lot of trouble. But, Yeah, so, I mean, I'm trying to remain somewhat anonymous, so I won't give a name of a therapist, but I will say that, like, if you can find, like, a Catholic group, um, usually there's a lot of gold nuggets in that group of Catholic therapists, [01:03:00] that, like, all work together in, like, one building.

That's, that's usually what I've found good luck with.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah. And thanks for, saying that and totally respect the privacy. Thanks for, uh, walking carefully there. But, um, yeah, no, that makes sense. And yeah, I, I think it's true. Like not all therapists are created

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: not to bash any, but just to recognize that some are a better fit for you and maybe more competent in what they do, just like any

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: So I appreciate you saying that and speaking out about it. Um, did your parents remarry? And if so, I'm curious how that has impacted you.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. So, um, my dad has remarried here. Married first. I think he started dating like before my parents were an old, which was another problem. but, um, I honestly, I've never met her. I don't really know the situation. I've been removed from my dad for about seven years. So, not entirely familiar with that situation.

but my mom just got remarried two weeks ago. So, um, at the time of recording. So, um, she just got remarried and they're, I mean, genuinely perfect for each other. So, um, it's a [01:04:00] blessing. You could just see the hand of God there. And, um, yeah, I'm so grateful.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Okay. So that's been a

positive experience for you. I know it's not for everyone, um, even if

you're okay. Good to

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm living in a different state and I'm, you know, a mom and married now, but I don't have, I'm not physically close with them. So that is definitely kind of sad, but, um, overall, like, um, it's been so good to watch my family just kind of grow closer to God and find real happiness in life, which has been good.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Beautiful. No, I love it. I love seeing you thriving. It's, it's so good, especially knowing what you've been through. So amazing. Um, the annulment, just want to touch on that briefly. What was that experience like for you? Like, what were the thoughts and emotions that you kind of experienced when that began, when it was going, when it ended all that?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, um, I think the first thought that I had, was, am I not valid? I think that was the biggest thing, and I think, like, what's weird about that is that I had [01:05:00] that thought when the annulment was finalized after, like, two years, so I had known that it was going on, But I didn't really think much of it.

I was so overwhelmed with other things that were going on in life that I was kind of just like, okay, great. Like there, there will eventually be a great enough divide. We can be completely safe eventually. Um, which, you know, with custody battles in the court system, really not, seeing the full picture.

It's, you know, been a problem, but the enormous, at least could create a, A better life for my mom, which I had prayed for. So there was that feeling, but then as soon as the interlude was finalized. It was just kind of like this overwhelming feeling of guilt. Like I had done something wrong. Like our family had been living in a weird sin, which is, you know, a weird, like Catholic guilt thing.

Um, and I think maybe, at first, probably no one really like taught me enough about it. And then eventually, like, I kind of was talking with my grandma and my mom and my aunt, and they kind of like explained everything well enough. But I did [01:06:00] wrestle with that for probably a few weeks, a Feeling like, like maybe I'm completely invalid since my parents marriage was invalid. but you know, if for anyone listening, like if, if your parents, Do get an annulment. That just means that there is a barrier between them that they didn't fully see past or was not, something was not exposed. And, maybe both parties were not aware of it, which is, you know, a problem with people who might be mentally ill.

Like they don't think that they're mentally ill sometimes. so it, it doesn't mean anything is invalid about them or you. It just means that the marriage covenant wasn't taken seriously enough, or that there was a serious barrier cognitively.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Totally. No, and I appreciate you going to that because I know there's other people out there who feel the same. And, yeah, my parents, so they were granted the annulment as well. And it's actually, um, it was appealed, my dad appealed it. And so it's in Rome right now. So it's kind of like this weird

middle ground. Yeah. Interesting. [01:07:00] Yeah. Interesting.

so, you know, the Chicago archdiocese said they were, the marriage wasn't valid, that mean they were never married, I guess, but then it's appealed. So if the, if Rome says that it was valid or I don't, you know, there's different ways that Rome could go about. then they're married again, like, or it was valid. Like it's, it's really a confusing thing. So we're going to put out some content in the future around annulments. And I know this is a specifically Catholic kind of thing. Um, so I know we have people listening who aren't religious or maybe you're evangelical Christian.

So this is kind of a foreign topic for you, but for the Catholic listening, this can be like a weird, foggy. area, um, for those of us, you know, especially the children going through it. And I remember, um, kind of thinking similar things about like legitimacy, like you said, or validness, like, am I illegitimate as a child?

And we, we did some research into this and it's really interesting. Um, there's like the civil side of it and then there's the church side of it. So church law, um, which is called canon law for everyone not familiar. And then there's like civil law. so legitimacy seems to be [01:08:00] more of like a concern on the civil side.

So if you think years back when, Maybe there was a family who had multiple children and maybe the children were born of different mothers and maybe one of them was born out of wedlock and then it comes time for the children to receive like their inheritance, like whether it was land or money or something that we think we haven't been able to trace this to its source, but we think that that was more of like the reason why they were labeling children legitimate and illegitimate because an illegitimate child in that situation wouldn't receive any of that, that wealth. Whereas on the other end, a legitimate child, you know, civilly legitimate child would receive that, um, inheritance. That's what we've inferred so far. So we don't have hard data on that yet, but we do want to look into it deeper. So that's the civil side. That's what seems that where it came about. And then on the church law side, so we consulted different canon lawyers on this.

And, um, maybe, maybe I'll link to the chapter in my book that talks about this, but essentially what it comes down to is like, not much if, if through, um, the process of annulment, it comes to [01:09:00] light that, you know, your parents marriage wasn't valid. Um, it doesn't automatically make you an illegitimate child.

And even if you are quote unquote labeled illegitimate in the eyes of the church, it doesn't really mean anything. Um, it's like, Oh, actually you're, you know, you can't go to like church, you can't go to mass. You can't go to heaven. Like you're doomed. Like, no, of course not. It's like, of course there's, there's no difference when it comes to dignity or worth or value as a person.

None of that is in the eyes of God, in the eyes of the church, you are just as valuable. You're just as loved. You're just as wanted all that stuff. So I think that's important to mention. Um, Another kind of nuance to this too, that even if you, you know, were to quote unquote, be illegitimate, the way the church sees it as like, if your parents like didn't have a valid marriage and that was like clear, then you would quote unquote, be illegitimate.

But, which I hate talking about, but that's just kind of the way that the church talks about it. Um, but if you were in a marriage where it appeared that your parents had a legitimate marriage, it's called a Putative marriage, that they had a [01:10:00] parents actually makes you legitimate because to everyone else, it appeared that it was legitimate, which was certainly

be in your case. Um, and in my case too, it seemed like my parents are married for like 20 something years before they got divorced. And so it was, um, Definitely a case where, um, it was, it appeared legitimate. And so the kid, the children are legitimate. So I know I kind of, um, maybe it's not super clear, but we can link to the chapter, at least an article on this topic for you guys to get you some more answers in case you're wondering about it.

So we'll make a note of that in the show notes. If you guys want to read that chapter from the book, we'll make it free. We'll put it on the blog. Uh, so you guys can get more answers about that. So yeah, kind of a niche Catholic topic, but I wanted to touch on that a little bit. Um, any questions or thoughts

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: No, I think that's good. That was a really good explanation. And it is kind of a really hard and interesting topic to talk about, especially one like you've lived through it. But yeah, I think just reminding people that like, you're never invalid as a human being, like God created you in his image and likeness and that doesn't ever change.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Amen. Yeah. And there's no practical consequences to that. Again, it's like, It's [01:11:00] like, okay, great. Like maybe there's this like label that's thrown around, but like, what, how does that make your life different? It really doesn't. It's more of, I mean, maybe it's just something that you might wrestle with, which I totally get.

And there's a place for that too. So anyway, not to go down that rabbit hole too far, but we haven't really talked a ton about that on the show. So I thought it might be necessary. So thank you for bringing that up. I'm curious. Um, toward the end here now, but I'm curious, what sort of like ongoing or recent challenges have you faced related to, know, navigating your broken family to whatever degree you're comfortable

sharing?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I think, one of the biggest things is the fact that, um, with something like abuse, especially with someone who can act so normal in public, um, there's a level of denial, which can be really hard to deal with. Um, even like some of my own siblings, I think, Part of the problem is that, you know, if my father wanted something or like he wanted a custody change, he would treat them differently.

And then he would kind of attack my mom in court with this custody change. So like in the eyes of them, they're seeing like, Oh, like everything's great. [01:12:00] We're so happy. We're going to Disneyland all the time, but like, really it's. being used and whether or not my dad's actually like thinking that whole process through it is happening that like he's, you know, abusing my mom and bring her back to court every six months and just draining her all the time.

So I think that's a hard part is that not all the kids see it the same way because they're being treated different ways. And so as soon as you, um, the myself on the oldest and then the one directly underneath me, my brother, uh, he and I both recognize that, like, as soon as you recognize. Like the hypocrisy and like the verbal abuse particularly and start standing up for yourself.

That's when things get bad for you. So I think that's probably the biggest piece is that some of my younger siblings still like they, they know that there are problems and they don't like what's happening. And like the youngest particularly I know has stated he's, he's been scared and uncomfortable, but I think that's the hardest part is knowing like there's so much denial, but also like Most of what's [01:13:00] happening is not illegal.

And so the court system doesn't care. and so I think that's been the biggest challenge is just not calling abuse abuse.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Gosh. Breaks my heart. I remember my siblings, like after I kind of aged out of visitation, I remember my siblings going through that and just like painful thing to watch, especially if the parent they're with isn't healthy and there's like, it's toxic and

all that.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: And there are like phases too, where it's like, we can't handle this. We know what's going on. And then like, they'll be treated a really, really nice way. And it's like, Oh, it's all good. It's fine. You know, so it's, it's watching the siblings being flip flopped, probably the hardest part.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: That's the hardest part. Okay. Thanks for sharing. I'm so sorry. the we're always a work in progress. I'm curious how your life is different now you've alluded to different things like you're a mom, you're a wife. That's so beautiful. So yeah, I'm just curious, like contrast for me how life is different and better

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, well, I mean, I think the biggest thing is, you know, I'm not living in abuse, which is, you know, it sounds so, like, crazy to [01:14:00] say that, that that's like a good thing, that should just be happening for everybody, but, like, honestly, I'm just so grateful that God saved me from that. And yeah, I, I went to, um, Franciscan university and got my nursing degree there.

So I'm working as a nurse in the pro life movement, which is really, really great. Um, I'm a wife to an amazing man who I just love. He's my best friend. Um, could go on and on about him. And then I just, um, I have a, a young toddler who is just beautiful and I love her so much and she's just. Absolutely the happiest person you'll ever meet.

and so I'm just, yeah. you know, I don't go every day without having some depression or anxiety. Like, you know, I go through phases like we talked about earlier, like every life changed. It's, there are always going to be these underlying things because these are like the crosses that I've been asked to carry to heaven.

But like, they're not my identity, which is probably the biggest thing. And that's, kind of why I'm writing a book now. Um, it's because we don't want to make our victimhood, our identity, you know, we're [01:15:00] victorious in Christ. And so that's, that's what I'm going to be writing about. Um, hopefully publishing we'll see where it goes, but, um, yeah, no, I'm just

trying to live the best life that God has for me and discovering him more every day, it's really, really beautiful.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love it. No, it's a beautiful transformation. Like a lot of people, I think it's humbling to remember. And I'm not sure how often you think about this, but I think about it for myself pretty often like the different trajectories that I could have gone on in life. And it's really humbling to think like, Oh my gosh, like I could have been in a really, really bad spot.

It's like such really grateful that I'm not, you know, there. And so it's beautiful that you are where you are. And I know I'm sure there's, like you said, there's hard days and hard times. And I experienced that too. But man, it's a really, I feel so blessed in life now and even with pain and suffering from time to time, it's like, yeah, I have it really good.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, I think we are so blessed and there's something, to speak of there where like it gives us so much compassion for people who went in a path of life that we easily could see ourselves going into, You know, like [01:16:00] just anyone, the father wound is so common and like, you know, we see it so often, especially just with a lot of, young women nowadays, I think, like I know the whatever podcast is really popular right now.

And like, honestly, like

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I have so much compassion for everyone on that show, because I know if I didn't have God in my life, I would be on that podcast. So instead of this one, which is great, you know, like praise,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: We're a

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: yeah, praise God. But, um, yeah, I think it allows us to have insane compassion for people who suffer.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Amen. And Going back to what you said earlier, you said, you know, and abusers just want

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yes.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Would you elaborate on that a little bit more? Like what that's first, like, again, I'm just, my mind's kind of blown that you going through what you've been through are able to say that today.

That's like a clear sign, like I said

before, like transformation and growth and healing, which is beautiful. But yeah, elaborate

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. I could, I could say so much. but it's. It's so simple. [01:17:00] we are all people made in the image and likeness of God. And so as a reflection of God, we want to reflect love back to him and we want to receive his love. And so that's designed in us, that is what it means to be a person. And so abusers, and I'm going to use that umbrella term of abusers because oftentimes, you know, we've got like all the personality disorders, which we can get, you know, like cluster B is something that, um, Christopher Rufo talks about right now.

So I'll just talk, I'll mention that. So cluster B is, um, histrionic, borderline, narcissistic, and antisocial combined. So that's, um, Christopher Rufo talks about us being in a cluster B society right now. And, that's kind of like the biggest thing we see. We see it a lot in like politics, for example, like gaslighting, manipulating that kind of thing.

So, what happens, and I've looked somewhat deeply into this is that usually there's a deprivation of Love early on in childhood, like before the age of reason. And Jordan Peterson talks about this a ton too. Like [01:18:00] he talks about narcissism a lot. and, you know, ultimately like we are all narcissists or we are all abusers in the sense that like we do sin, we might, you know, snap at somebody.

We might be rude, that kind of thing. But someone who's abusive. They were deprived of so much love that they can't imagine being loved or loving themself. And so they just, they can't bear to look at themself. And so what they do is they try and make other people love them the way they wanted to be loved.

and they try and force that out of you. And so like, if you don't, conform to the idea that they have of what you should be, They're going to grasp at it and take it away from you. That feeling only comes from the desire to be loved, known, and heard. And what's so tragic about that is that it makes it impossible to know, love, and hear them.

Because you're unsafe if you are near them and so you have to create boundaries for your own [01:19:00] safety and you know, obviously we all want to be able to reconcile with an abuser, or with anybody really, but, unfortunately, enabling someone to grasp at you and to take from you. isn't loving them.

It's not giving them what they really deserve. And so you just have to create a boundary and hope that God will, you know, through his grace, heal them enough so that you can work together on finding a way to love them. unfortunately for me and my dad, that's, you know, For the foreseeable future, not possible.

I have been praying that I'll be at his deathbed and hopefully maybe that's when we can reconcile. But, um, all an abuser wants is to be known and loved. And it's always just a good thing that's not rightly ordered.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Thanks for going into that and I can tell it's emotional and I appreciate you just sharing so much and we'll definitely be praying for you and your dad and

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Thank you.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: happening in your family. Yeah. And I like what [01:20:00] you said and just how, like, if there's a way to reconcile with them, that's safe.

That's a good

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: But if not, then you can't. And then I know you'd say that and what I hear you saying. And I think that's wise. And when it comes to like narcissistic tendencies, I, the way I think about it too, is that there's kind of a, there's a spectrum.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: to have to be like a full blown narcissist is like a very

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: That's like, um, very, um, clear signs. Um, there's, it's a very intense experience for the person, for everyone around them. Um, but all of us, like you said, kind of fall somewhere on the spectrum of being narcissistic because we're all prideful. We have

pride, right? We, and so I think, I think that's,

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: We're all sinful, yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. So I think it's important to kind of talk about that, but obviously we're differentiating between the two, like a full blown case and maybe some tendencies here or there. And then the same thing with like being an abuser, like obviously, um, And I hear you saying that, you know, we all kind of have the abusive tendencies cause we don't treat people well.

We might hurt or harm them in some ways, but obviously it's, Categorically different than someone [01:21:00] who's, you know, doing this in a very severe frequent way, that's really impacting someone like we talked about before. So I appreciate you kind of drawing this out for us. Uh, it's tricky to talk about, and I think that's kind of maybe why it's not getting a lot of attention because it's somewhat elusive.

It's like, you can't really put your hands totally around it. I remember, um, forget, forget which judge it was on the Supreme court. There was a case about pornography. Um, years back, you might have heard this and, um, they, there was like this discussion about somehow hardcore pornography came up and the judge had this really famous line that said, I can't really define it, but I know it when I see it.

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: And so I wonder if there's something similar here with, with abuse. And so we're going to hopefully keep, uh, talking about this and figure out. You know, the right language to use. So I appreciate you, your work. I appreciate you working on the book when it comes out. If you would send us the link and we'll put it in the show notes here.

So people listening in the future, we'll be able to get access to it. There's so much more I want to talk to you about. Um, guess there's a couple of questions I can't

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: this is going along, but I just want to ask, [01:22:00] one. really common these days. I've fallen into this too.

For those of us who've been through, know, trauma or abuse to fall into like a victim hood, victim mentality. Um, how have you avoided that? Cause it seems like you're in a really good free place. Um, that even the way you talk about what you've been through very different than someone who maybe is like stuck in victim or victim mentality.

So how have you, Not falling into that

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: That is such a good question. Because we live in the victim Olympics. Like, I would be the queen over here. If I were playing that game. But, um,

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I'd be a silver medal

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Oh yeah. Yeah. I, I think, I mean, ultimately the grace of God. but, I think it's just, part of like my innate personality of like, not wanting to be put down.

And like, I'm not gonna, it came from this feeling of, I'm not gonna let this define my whole life. because it came You know, in, in the searching of my identity as a human person in the image and likeness of [01:23:00] God, which is not a victim, right? You are not a victim if you are, made in the image and likeness of God.

That's not your identity. Like, you can be a victim in the sense that someone is abusing you, but that's not who God made you to be, because Christ was also a victim of abuse. all these different things. You know, he was ultimately murdered. but that's not his identity. He rose again and he resurrected death.

And so that's like, victimhood is not where the story ends. And so I think like my, um, I guess desire to not live as a victim comes from reading the passion of Christ all the way to the end of the resurrection. you know, I was made for so much more than living this the rest of my life. And so, I think people can avoid this victim mentality by finding their identity, which is, you know, why I'm trying to write this book.

And, you know, if anyone out there wants to talk about it, I'll definitely very much appreciate any help figuring out publishing that, cause I think it'd be helpful, but, yeah, walking through the passion of Christ and [01:24:00] recognizing that he never called himself a victim ever. Like it's all sacrifice and it's not who he is.

identifies himself as the son of God. And so we need to emulate that. so if you currently feel like you're in a situation where you are truly, you know, Being abused, go deeper, find out what your real identity is, and it will just explode light from you.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love that. I remember hearing Dave Ramsey the financial guru

guys say that

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Yeah. Wow.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: true. So, and like you said, it's a description of an experience, not an identity. And I think it's important for us all to remember.

And, um, and yeah, joking aside with like the whole victim mentality Olympics, it is a real struggle and I think a lot of us fall into it, but I think there's a lot of, um, progress you can make. I love the advice you gave. Um, one of the things I've seen work too is just like, like you said, like you have to have this like fighter mentality of like, no, no, no, I'm not going to this control my life.

I'm not going to sit here and just feel sorry for myself. Like there's a place for [01:25:00] grieving. I'm not glossing over that. That's important. But at the end of the day, eventually, eventually we have to ask the question now, what And, and the response to that I think is, is what helps us to transform from maybe a victim into what you call like a victor, someone who's like pursuing life, the life that they're meant to live and truly fighting for that, which is worth fighting for.

It's, it's a good and beautiful thing. So, yeah, so much good stuff there. Um, we'll definitely put out future content on that cause it's a big, big struggle. And there's some really, one of the other things I found helpful when it comes to victim mentality is like, look at people maybe in worse situations than you that have done like.

Really beautiful things with their lives and you will be like inspired. Like I can never slack off. Like there's these, there's like a Navy seal. I think of that I wrote about in my book that he got, sorry, kind of graphic, but he got shot in the face with a bullet in the middle East and bullet.

And anyway, he went blind. Um, he, yeah, just had to go undergo all these surgeries and it would have been really easy for him, um, to just give up. And his name is Ryan Jobe and, uh, [01:26:00] Ryan, uh, just refused. And so he began living life to the fullest as he could, um, in that scenario. And I think that's so much, that speaks so much to like being healthy and whole.

given your situation, right? You might, he might never begin his, eyesight, but he was able to live like a full whole life. And so he did amazing things. He got a 4. um, getting a business degree as a blind man. He, um, Married and, his girlfriend and they conceived a baby together. Um, he mounted a, he summited Mount Rainier, which is like a really difficult climb for anyone that's in the Seattle area and people like a couple of people die every year doing that.

He did as a blind man, you need technical gear to get to the top. There's, it's usually really treacherous with weather and things like that, really difficult climb. And he did as a blind man, um, he hunted an elk as a blind man, if you can believe that. So it's like, you hear stories like that and you're like, okay, like I need to, um, yes, grieve what I've lost and heal and everything.

But then like, I need to fight for something and, and just build the life that I want to live. And I see you doing that, which is [01:27:00] really, really beautiful. The last question I had for you was, uh, around, um, your relationship with God. I think it's really common for people like us to actually push God away. And, uh, I'm sure you've had struggles here or there, but it seems like you haven't fallen into that. How did you not?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: Just his grace. I, you know, that's, that's all I can say is I, I don't know. It's miraculous. Truly. I, I definitely, um, at the very beginning of like the divorce specifically, like. You know, really was kind of screaming at him. Like, why, why is this happening? So, um, yeah, that's, it's not uncommon to feel that way.

Um, and I still go through periods where I'm, you know, not, as diligent with my relationship with him and giving him the attention and love he deserves to, you know, I'm certainly no saint, but, um, I think just discovering his passion and how every single piece of his passion relates to every single piece of my life and your life too.

You know, you, the listener, there's not a single part in your life that was, um, engulfed by suffering that did not happen in the passion. [01:28:00] and that might take a while for you to kind of Let it soak in if you spend lots of time with it, and you reread it over and over again It you know, it's not identical obviously because Christ isn't living our life He lived his but he wanted you to be able to come to him with every single hurt You ever could have and he could say me too.

That's the beauty of it

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: I love it. And holding onto him in the midst of that suffering is kind of the key to not just driving him away, which makes so much sense. And yeah, I definitely asked a lot of those questions too, but I'm not sure I think it's so good. We need to be honest, but, um, yeah, that you're wise to kind of go to like, yeah, we have a God who suffered. We can never say he didn't know what it's like. So so much sense. Thank you for that. If your parents, or well, let me say it this way. If you could, speak honestly to your parents about everything, which it sounds like you have with your mom. Um, what would

you say?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: well, I think that that's so tricky because, you know, my dad was abusive. But if I [01:29:00] could say anything, like just a final parting word, it would just be that Christ loves you and that's it. That's what life is about. And so if you try and put him in the center, everything will be okay. And you will reach heaven through your suffering.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Love that. people want to contact you, what's the best way for

them to

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: so I'm trying to remain somewhat, you know, not expose my full identity just because I do talk about abuse, but I made an email last night. Let me look it up. Okay. It's called in joyful praise at gmail. com and it's just You know, regular spelling in joyful praise at gmail. com. And I would love to hear from anybody, um, how the podcast affected you or, you know, how abuse affected you.

And I would just love to talk about it. like I said, I'm also writing a book. So if anyone's interested in maybe getting to know about that, that would be also great because I have no idea what I'm doing, writing a book, but, um, yeah, please do reach out. I would love to email you.

joey-pontarelli_25_07-11-2024_114148: Love it. Thank you so [01:30:00] much. I really appreciate it. I, uh, just wanted to tie up the conversation by saying how grateful I am for you. How, yeah, just, built a beautiful life. You're a beautiful person. It's amazing to see like the transformation, like I said before, and I love especially how you are helping women as part of your job in abusive situations.

Like how beautiful is that? So I think there's so much to be said about, taking like the brokenness, the mess in our lives and like turning it into something good for other people, which is exactly what you've done and what you're doing in your marriage. And as a mother too, that's somewhat of the resolution to this whole problem, all of us face coming from broken families.

So really beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on the show. And you kind of gave a last word, but I want to throw it to you to one more chance. Like what advice or encouragement would you offer to the

younger you? Who's perhaps

listening right now?

emma_1_07-11-2024_114149: I would just say that, entrust everything to God and He will blow your mind. Honestly, that is just the best advice is just learn how to trust Paul and you know, when you get punched down and you've got the wind knocked out of you, try and take a nice big deep breath in and then say, okay, [01:31:00] God, it's all yours.

Just do with it what you will. And He will literally blow your mind.

If you'd like to share your story with us, like Emma did, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three simple steps. At first, I want to talk through some of the benefits of sharing your story. The first one is reflecting on your story and sharing your story with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neuro biological level.

It makes your brain healthier. According to neuro biologists, also writing your story is healing as well. There's been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events. In their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious. They're healthier. And they're happier too. Another benefit though, is that it can help other people.

It can be super helpful to someone who's maybe going through what you were going through. and maybe not sure what to do, and, or haven't really been able to talk with someone who has been through what they've been through as well. And so it can be really helpful in offering them some guidance. And so if you want to share your story, You can just go to restored ministry. Dot com slash story.

You can fill out the form that it just guides you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll turn it [01:32:00] into an anonymous, a blog article. Again, you can share your story now@restoredministry.com slash story. Or just click on the link in the show notes. If you come from a divorce or broken family, or maybe, you know, someone who does we offer more resources than just this podcast, those resources include things like a book. Uh, free video courses, speaking engagements. A free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of those resources, all of our resources are designed to help you heal. From the trauma that you've endured and build the virtue.

So you can break that cycle and build. A better life. And so if you want to check out and view our resources, you can just go to restored ministry.com/resources. Again, whether that's for you or maybe someone, you know, just go to restored ministry.com/resources, or just click on the link in the show notes.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who is struggling from their parents' divorce or their broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. I promise you, they will be very grateful that you did and including. I was, remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole [01:33:00] again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce and your own life.

And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis, who said you can't go back and change the beginning. But you can start where you are. And change the ending.

Restored 6/4/24 Restored 6/4/24

#124: I Wanted My Divorced Parents Back Together | Ethan

For many of us from divorced families, we unconsciously want our parents to resolve their problems and get back together.

For many of us from divorced families, we unconsciously want our parents to resolve their problems and get back together. Even if that isn’t possible due to abuse or other extreme scenarios, we can’t help but want our family to be whole.

Today’s guest felt that desire for his parents and family. In this episode, we discuss that and more:

How anger, overeating, and lots of activities became his coping mechanisms
How his parents’ divorce has affected him differently in different chapters of his life
How much should parents tell their kids about the divorce?
What he’s done to heal and grow, and how his life is better now

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Get in touch with Ethan

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Speaker: [00:00:00] For so many of us who came from divorced families, we can't help but want at some level for our parents to resolve their problems and get back together. Now, this isn't true for everyone, right? Especially in extreme situations where the divorce happened because of abuse or violence, there definitely needed to be some sort of a split.

But even if we know it isn't good for our parents to be together in that condition, we often can't help, but just want our family to be whole. And we might even feel ashamed for that, especially if people led us to believe that the divorce is this good, happy thing. My guest today felt that desire for his parents and his family to be whole, and in this episode, he and I discussed that and more.

Like, how as a boy, he would cry himself asleep because of the pain from his family's breakdown. How anger, overeating, and lots of activities became his coping mechanisms, which thankfully, he's outgrown. He shares how his parents divorce has affected him differently in different stages of his life. And in this episode, he just walks us through those different stages.

We discuss how much should parents tell their kids, divulge to their kids about the divorce. [00:01:00] It's a tricky topic, tricky question to answer. And finally, he opens up about what he's done to heal and grow and how his life is better now. Stay with us. Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family, so you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panerelli. This is episode 124. We're so happy to hear so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard lots of great feedback. One woman said this, I found Restored a couple of months ago, and it's given me the clarity and courage to actually begin to address the unprocessed trauma of my parents divorce.

Thank you for this ministry. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Black Zone of Films. In a recent survey by [00:02:00] Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of Millennials said video is their top content choice. And that's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that?

Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know you need to create video content, but there's just so many barriers to actually doing it. You don't know how to do it. You don't have the time to learn it. Um, you don't know who to hire, who's trustworthy, and it kind of leaves you feeling overwhelmed to the point where you just go back to what you know, to what's comfortable.

But that's where Blackstone films can help you. They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel good. They can create things like trailers, uh, promo videos and commercials, social media videos, documentaries, fundraising videos, uh, and courses. We actually produced two video courses with them.

We had an excellent experience. So, whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about helping you not just create video content, but, uh, produce content. clear win, a clear result for your business or your ministry, such as, you know, fundraising for your [00:03:00] ministry, uh, selling a course, getting leads for your business, getting students to sign up for your school, promoting your event.

And so much more. Blackstone has reached millions of people around the globe, uh, with their videos and they can help you too. And so to view their past projects and the services that they offer, uh, just go to their website, blackstonefilms. co not. com again, blackstonefilms. co or just click on the link in the shout outs.

My guest today is Ethan. Like so many of us, he is a child of divorced parents. His hope for you listening is that you know that there is hope and beauty that can rise from the ashes. He graduated from Lancaster Bible College with a degree in biblical studies and currently lives in Nashville, Tennessee, where he performs as a touring drummer.

His goal in life is to love God and others and to be loved by God and others and to make the world a better place. He loves meeting new people and hearing their stories. Without waiting any longer, here's our chat. Ethan, so good to have you on the show, man.

Speaker 2: Thanks, Joey. I'm really [00:04:00] happy to be here.

Speaker: I'm excited to dive into your story.

And as we usually do, just like go head first into it. How old were you when your parents separated and divorced?

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, when my parents separated, I was about eight years old. I was in third grade. And so they separated then. Um, and I forget when at some point later, they divorced, but I mean, effectively, it felt like they kind of divorced when I was that old.

Speaker: No, it totally makes sense. And, uh, yeah, it is kind of, there's kind of a gray area there, you know, I think often one or the other kind of leaves more of an impact depending on the story. So that totally makes sense to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, uh, what happened, what led up to it? What, what happened when it all went down?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm totally happy to share. And, uh, just as a, uh, I guess a disclaimer to the audience, like I definitely will be talking about some really difficult, um, and hard things, obviously in my story, but I also just want to say that I'm going to talk about a lot of things that have brought me. You know, joy and some peace from this.

So we're going to get to the bottom and we're going to get to the top. So just [00:05:00] uh, hang on for the ride here But uh, yeah, so when my parents separated I remember where we were We all had gathered in the dining room table and mom and dad were like, hey, we need to tell you something or Getting separated and so immediately, like, you know, we all kind of, I ran away out of the room crying and immediately, like, you know, all my siblings and I were sitting upstairs and my first thought was, we have to get them back together.

We have to get them back together. And I just, you know, didn't realize at the time that that's not something you can do as an eight year old. And so, yeah, that was, that was a really pivotal moment in my life. But later that day, I just went over to a friend's house, you know, just cause I think that was my gut reaction was to go be with other people.

So yeah, that's, uh, that's what it looked like when it started.

Speaker: Okay, I know that makes so much sense. And that, man, what I like kind of pure and innocent desire of like, man, I want my family to be whole. I want my parents to kind of work through this. And I think the more people I've talked to, you know, who come from broken families, like even if they see, you know, especially in some [00:06:00] extreme situations, the value of like, okay, there, it was dangerous or there was abuse or whatever we had to, there had to be some sort of a split.

There is always, I think that desire of like, man, wouldn't it be so good if my parents could just work through this stuff and we can have like a whole family. And I remember with my siblings and I don't even know what happened, but it was one night where things were kind of tense at home. This was like, you know, kind of years after the divorce.

And there was some arguing and some like, you know, even crying, I think. And I remember someone just saying like, and all I've really wanted was just like for our family to be whole. And for some reason that just like struck a nerve in me. And I was like, yeah.

Speaker 2: Hmm.

Speaker: Like that's what I want to. So I think that's a desire.

So many of us feel.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker: I am. No, I wanted to go deeper into your story too. I'm curious, you know, in the months and years that followed and everything leading up to how did that all affect you?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. And I feel like there's so many different ways to tackle that because, you know, I'm sure there's, you know, how it affected me in elementary school, middle school, high school, college and beyond.

Yeah, I just, I [00:07:00] mean, some immediate ways I think that it affected me. I'll kind of start there and then go forward a little bit. So when I was in elementary school, you know, what that looked like for me was I had always been relatively carefree. Like I'd never really gone through anything that hard in life up to that point.

And so, you know, crying myself to sleep became just like a very frequent, like very normal thing. Even though it wasn't normal. Um, I started experiencing some bullying at school, you know, just different things like that. Yeah. Um, you know, when frequently like eat a lot of seconds to just kind of like try to mask my feelings and like feel a little bit better as a little kid.

Um, so that's how it affected me in the short term. And then once I got to middle school, really, we kind of hit a moment where I realized that, Hey, you know, something that helps me not feel bad is doing things and just really being involved in a lot of activities. And so. I mean, anything that I could possibly do, I did Boy Scouts, youth groups, sports band instruments was just doing [00:08:00] all of it.

And so that's kind of how it affected me more so in elementary and middle school. And then I think at home things change too, you know, cause obviously you're missing seeing the way we had our schedule was we'd see our dad every other weekend. So, you know, definitely missed seeing him as much. You know, and things were just different to like at my mom's house, where we spent, you know, the school weeks, just there's kind of that lack of, Oh, like, I guess we have all have to do some more tours now.

And there's, you know, more conflict just between siblings and stuff. So, you know, it was something we were all trying to figure out together. And so I think it definitely got more difficult, but those are some of the immediate impacts.

Speaker: No, that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, man, what a difficult thing for a kid to go through.

You know, like looking back, we can like summarize that. Kind of easily effortlessly almost, um, but my goodness, when you're in the midst of it, that is heavy stuff.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And just, I think one of the, the biggest moments that stands out for me. Um, so I really, you know, did have a tough time through like the rest of elementary school and [00:09:00] it kind of came to a head when I was in sixth grade and I, you know, I'd frequently been crying myself to sleep and there was this one night where I was just overwhelmed with tears.

And, uh, for me personally, like I, at that point did believe in God and had that relationship, uh, with him. And so for me, it was on one hand, like I've been raised to believe that God is good and all of this stuff. But on the other hand, my whole world has fallen apart. And so here I am at eight years old, like trying to reconcile these two things.

Like, all right, what's really true. And so at that point in my life, most nights I would just go to bed and I'd pray like, God, just, you know, get my parents back together. Just. Help me out. Like if you're real, just show up. And so, you know, for four years, for three, three years, I didn't hear anything. Like not a word.

It just felt like I was calling somebody on the phone and nobody was answering the other end. And then I had this really, really interesting, like very special moment in my life where I was on my bed one night. In sixth grade, and I was just [00:10:00] crying, like really distraught and unlike any other time in my life, I just felt the presence of God come down on me and he said, Ethan, I have always been here for you, Ethan, I always will be here for you.

And I have a plan for your life. And that was the moment that changed everything for me, because beyond a shadow of a doubt, I knew I was like, all right, like God is real and that's who I'm going to follow and give my life to. And so I know that that's not everybody's story. And, you know, a lot of Christians may not have even had the moment like that.

But the reason I share that is that was just a really big personal turning point for me of, okay, like the worst thing possible could have happened to me did happen. And still somehow, you know, the Lord has showed up and has brought like this beautiful moment out of tragedy.

Speaker: Beautiful. Just sharing that.

And I can totally relate, you know, My story is a little bit different. It was really through meeting friends of mine who were just really like joyful people and I was miserable. Like I was so miserable. I was, you know, hooked on porn and I was just [00:11:00] struggling in a lot of different ways with like emotions, like anger and loneliness, depression, anxiety, like all those things.

And I meet these people who are just like, they're peaceful. They're joyful. Like they're happy people. They're not fake. They're real too. And I was like, like, what in the world? Do you have like whatever that is, like I want it. And so that's really what led me to, to kind of go deeper with faith and build a relationship with God.

But yeah, no, I love hearing that story. And that's like, what a grace, what a gift to like, have that moment.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So that really, you know, that gave me such a strong foundation, I think, cause I, we all know that middle school can be full of ups and downs, but for me, my mom said this thing that I've always thought was really beautiful.

She said, you know, feeling grief. Is like one end of the pendulum and the further that you've swung on that side, the further you can really feel joy on the other side. And I really have seen that ring true in my life. You know, like if I could change the divorce, obviously I would, but, you know, I see that.

Because I've had to deal with such grief at such a young age, like that really has just given me just [00:12:00] an appreciation for the beauty of the things in ordinary moments, you know, like if I'm outside and we're all loading a moving truck, maybe other people would be like, Oh, this, like, I'm tired. This is hot.

This is horrible. And I'm like, guys, The sun is shining like it's 60 degrees. Like this is amazing, you know? And so I just think that's a really great thing, you know, because life is really, really difficult, like excruciating at times, but it also really does have this capacity just to be beautiful. Um, and so I see that as, you know, one of the good things that came out of that experience.

Speaker: 100%. One of the things I've noticed with people like us too is kind of based on that contrast principle that you just articulated so well, um, we, we have like more capacity for empathy I've noticed. And I, I would bet this is true for most people who've been through any sort of trauma, you know, cause I, I see divorce and family falling apart as a trauma.

And that's what the studies say too. And the stories and all that, as you know, but yeah, it seems like it kind of opens a part of your heart that maybe wouldn't have otherwise been open for other people who are also suffering. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. [00:13:00] And I think the last thing I want to say, cause uh, I'm trying to keep, you know, our audience in mind here, people who have also like their parents have gone through divorce.

Um, our situation was a little bit unique just in the sense that we didn't know why our parents got divorced and they, they never told us. So, you know, I'm very, very grateful that they never brought us in the middle of anything. You know, there was never any like shouting or screaming matches that we witnessed.

You know, but there was just kind of this really weird void. So I know that everybody's story is unique, but I just kind of wanted to provide that little context there.

Speaker: Yeah, that's helpful. Let's stay there for a second. What's your advice to a parent listening right now? Like they're going through a divorce and maybe they were divorced and maybe they're not sure how much they should share with their kids.

I'm curious, kind of your opinion on, you know, what, what should they say? Easy question.

Speaker 2: Yeah. If you're, if you're a parent going through that, I just want to let you know. Okay. That as a child of a situation like that, that, you know, my heart goes out to you. And I know that I'm sure there's a [00:14:00] lot of complex factors that have led to, you know, your present circumstances.

And so I think when you're talking with kids, you know, it's totally different ballgame when you're talking with elementary school kids versus somebody in middle school versus somebody in high school. But I think, you know, the best thing you can do, and I feel like the best thing my parents did was they just.

Like individually, you know, they didn't have the husband, wife thing figured out, but the parent thing, like they had that down there, their focus was always, Hey, how can we both be really present and involved in love and listen to our kids through this process? And so, yeah, I think when it comes to the details of the divorce, you know, like that's not something that they need to know at a young age, you know, when they're older, it definitely is important to unpack that.

I think at some point, but yeah, I think it's, you know, when, if you're focusing on really being a great parent and just keeping conflict to a minimum, like that really does have positive dividends for your kids. It really does help them through that process.

Speaker: Good advice. And I would echo what you said. And I kind of go to [00:15:00] the other end of the spectrum too.

I've seen situations where parents overshare and you were alluding to this too. And it really causes a lot of damage, you know, that whether they're at war with each other and they're trying to, you know, whether it's conscious or not, they're trying to maybe put down the other spouse or make them look bad.

So they kind of win the kid to their side, or, you know, it's just like, they feel like the kids deserve to know. I think there is a possibility of oversharing to where it becomes like this big burden that the children then carry around. I've seen that in many situations. And so I think there is a middle ground, you know, I think on one end leaving, not saying anything, you know, it's probably super confusing to a kid.

Cause like. Why in the world is this happening? On the other hand, caring too much can be kind of damaging too. So I think the, your advice on making it kind of age appropriate and not needing to like divulge all the sins and secrets about kind of what went down, I think is, is really good. And I've heard people say, you know, when you're talking to your kids about sex too, like it's kind of similar, like you want to give [00:16:00] them just enough information to kind of satisfy their curiosity, but not more.

And then when they get older and they have more questions and they need to know more information, you give them kind of more. So you're kind of like unveiling, kind of peeling back the layers a little bit of a time. And I think that's really good advice when it comes to, uh, this whole divorce topic as well.

I'm sure there's a lot more we can say there, but I'm curious to kind of keep going through the different chapters of your story. And I love that you broke it down that way. Cause I think it's so true that it, um, the struggles, the trauma, like kind of surfaces comes out in different ways as we kind of progress through life.

So yeah, tell us more.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll just kind of skip ahead on to high school. So, or I guess, yeah, middle school and high school. So I think one thing, and again, you learn a lot, it's just, it's wow. You really do learn so much at different stages because I can look back now at 27 years old on middle school and high school and, College and say, oh, that's when this was happening or that's when I was experiencing that.

But at the time I didn't have language for that. I didn't know what that was. I just kind of knew how I felt. So [00:17:00] a lot of times the way that I felt during that season of my life was that All of my feelings were just wrapped up together just like and I couldn't even name them, you know There was anger in there.

There was depression in there There was sadness and it just felt like this swirling tornado that I could not quell just this storm inside me And so It was really difficult for me to be alone. It was really difficult for me to do anything. Like I remember, you know, even up into high school, like if I, everybody was out of the house and I was just had a day off school or something, like if I was at the home alone, like it would lead me, it would leave me in tears, like inevitably, just cause I could physically not stand like being alone with my emotions.

And so. You know, the way I coped with that was by doing a lot of activities, but really spending a lot of time with friends. I found that, you know, consistently the thing that always helped me feel better was just having like other people I could be around, you know, just to joke around and do fun stuff with, but also on occasion, just really be honest about how I was feeling.

[00:18:00] And that's one thing I'm super proud of that, you know, I was able to do and that I was able to have friends like that. And so I think at any age, you know, if you're older than me or younger than me, like that's always just a really great thing is to just have, you know, you don't need a lot of people, but if you just have a couple of people who you really, really trust, just to spend time with them and to share what's really going on.

And then I think the other biggest thing for me because of that, you know, it just felt like there was never any peace inside, but For whatever reason, I had originally started playing drums as a kid, and I said, Mom, I want to play trumpet. And she said, No, you need to learn rhythm first. And so that's actually like why I'm still a drummer today, which is very funny.

But I remember the first time like I sat behind a drum set, I was just it was electric. It was so much fun. And then I got a drum set for my birthday in seventh grade and set it up in the basement. And I would pop in the Foo Fighters greatest hits, which is That is a great record. And when I would play along to that, I mean, Joey, it just felt like everything in my world was right.

It just felt like all of my [00:19:00] spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical chaos, just like quieted down. And it felt like all of that came together just for like this really beautiful, beautiful piece. And so honestly, like, I think that was the first time in my life where I just really was like, Like I feel okay.

And that was really significant for me, you know, and as an older adult, I can be like, Oh yeah, well, you know, you're physically moving your body and I can like try to explain all this stuff, but just at a very like human instinctual level, like that was just such a beautiful gift that I was able to receive.

And honestly, like. That aside from my faith and my friends and my family, like that has been the biggest influence in my life that has really helped me just make sense of it all. Cause you know, I think we all need something like that. And you know, whether that's a sport, whether that's art, whether that's, you know, insert your passion here, like that space is really sacred.

And I think it's a good thing to have. Um, cause when you can feel okay, you know, or you can feel, I guess, normal, [00:20:00] Wow, that's not the right word I'm looking for. When you can get to a baseline level of like peace, I think that's a really good thing because then you're able to bring that into other spaces in your life and offer that to other people.

Speaker: So good. No, I love all of that. And what I hear you saying too is I've heard, um, some psychologists talk about like our emotions on a scale, like our basic emotions on a scale where you have like hyper arousal and hypo arousal. And the way it was explained to me Was, you know, we're kind of meant to be at, if you think of a scale of one to 10 at the bottom of that scale is called hypoarousal where you're totally depressed, like kind of lifeless.

Um, at the top of the scale is called hyperarousal. That's where you're completely anxious. Like you're feeling terror essentially. And we'll kind of go up and down that scale throughout our life. Um, but we want to be like in the five or six range where we have peace, but we may have a little bit of an excitement, uh, like a healthy stress or, you know, a little bit of like a, You know, pop intercept sort of thing.

And, um, that sounds like that's what you experienced. You were kind of like up and down on that scale. And then finally there was something that kind [00:21:00] of helped you stay in that equilibrium, which makes so much sense. And I had a similar experience to kind of like you were saying when I was surrounding myself with like these other friends who were just living like really happy, healthy lives compared with like the sports buddies who I was hanging around with who just weren't.

There was just something about that that was contagious to me. And I was like, okay, now, you know, I certainly didn't earn or get to like emotional mastery overnight by any means, like it was still messy for me. But in time I noticed myself kind of leveling out and better able to, you know, kind of regulate as I know it's kind of a psych term, but it's like, basically, how do you go from being up or down on that scale to getting back to the middle?

As quickly as you can. And so that's what I hear you saying. Anything you would add to that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a great segue because on the scale of kind of hypo arousal versus hyper arousal. Honestly, I live probably most of my life at like a seven or eight, like the whole way through like high school and college, just.

Flying just doing as much as I could just like, you know, and some of that was really good, [00:22:00] just like beautiful ambitions to like, want to just really make the most of life. But there definitely was also a dynamic of trying to kind of outrun the pain. And I want to be clear that like, that's something that, you know, I still struggle with today.

And like, you know, it was very prevalent in my life, probably right up until about COVID and even after that. But the first time I realized it and became conscious of it, I was working at this summer camp for the second year in a row. And I didn't have time. I only could work there for one week. Um, and I was so excited.

And when I went back, I was just exhausted the whole week. Like I was just tired. It wasn't the same. And I remember one of these camp counselors sharing a story from when they were a kid about like wanting to run away. And my first thought was like, you know, that sounds pretty nice. Like no stress, no responsibilities.

And I was like, Oh my gosh, I was like, man, I need to I need to rest. And in that moment, I became consciously aware as like going into my junior of high school, like, Oh, I'm trying to outrun this thing. Like I'm trying to outrun the pain that I feel. And that was the first time that I really became aware of it.

And so, you know, still [00:23:00] obviously was going a mile a minute, but like tried to like take a couple of things off that I like was over committed to. Um, I think that's a word that accurately describe my life a lot during that time. And so, yeah, I kind of became aware of that then. And then I'm sure there's other stuff in high school that I'm forgetting, but really that kind of followed me into college.

You know, I went to a Bible college, which was a really good experience for me. And then my sophomore year, we took this class called student and family counseling, uh, which is basically, you know, you're trying to learn the basics of how to Help people who are going through tough things. And so the first assignment was right about the toughest thing that you've ever been through.

And I was like, Oh, okay, well, that's easy. I've already worked through that. I'm past that. You know, this is great. And then I wrote about my parents divorce and realized, in fact, I was not past it and I had a lot to work through there. And so. For anybody who's in that, that college space, I think the biggest thing I realized was that for me personally, the way we all process negative emotional differently, but instead of me becoming angry and directing that outwards [00:24:00] at my parents or other people, my default mode was to always turn that inward of like, Oh, what's wrong with me?

Or why do I feel this way? And so it kind of manifested as depression for me a lot growing up. So in college, I realized, Oh, no, like there's actually a lot of anger here. And so I really, for the first time began to look that in the face and like, how do I process, how do I express this, you know, to my parents?

And that led to some pretty, pretty raw moments for me. And so, you know, I want to be honest and say to the people that are struggling in that time of life, that it's okay. Like. I always tell people life after high school, like, you know, it will be worse than you could ever imagine, but it will also be like way better than you could ever imagine.

And there was nights where, you know, I'd be screaming in my car, just God and just praying and just so angry, you know, and then also there would be these moments of, you know, healing and just connection with others. And so I want to be honest with that, that like, you know, there is layers to this thing.

And I know psychologists and therapists will tell you that [00:25:00] it's, you have to kind of reprocess it at each age. Um, but that was certainly my experience in that college, college era. Wow.

Speaker: No, that's deep and really good. I think for anyone, like you said, in that stage of life right now, and I can totally relate to the anger.

I can relate to entering new chapters in life and. Different brokenness in me, like surfacing again, different parts of me kind of coming out that, you know, maybe were somewhat dormant in the past. And, uh, I remember, yeah, similar to you, like being in college. And I remember, uh, the girl I was dating at the time, great girl, you know, I just had this experience of just feeling like super broken.

That was like the best language I could put to it. Like I felt like kind of fragmented, like, yeah. So, you know, some form of depression, I guess, and just overall just feeling, yeah, broken. And, you know, I didn't, I knew I wasn't supposed to like, take it to her. Um, and so eventually similar to what you were describing, I was able to get therapy on campus and that was helpful and try to just make sense of the emotions and what I had been through in the past and not just like what I had been through in the past, but how it was affecting me today.

And, and that's 1 thing I think a [00:26:00] lot of us overlook is we think that the past is like in the past, but sometimes as 1 of my guests said, the past lives in the present. And that's really like the, one of the earmarks, one of the signs of trauma is that we're carrying that stuff with us. Like our brains almost can't differentiate often that what had happened in the past wasn't kind of brought to closure.

And therefore we are living our life as if we're in the midst of it right now. And that's a really difficult thing to carry with you.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think a therapist or somebody said to me one time that you're every age that you've ever been. And I was like, Oh man. You know, because you kind of, there's those parts of you that you still, you know, feel those things and you can depend if you haven't resolved them to process things like that.

And so, you know, while I started that work in college, I just did it for one semester, I kind of just dipped my toes in and didn't really, you know, fully dive in, which was fine, like, Maybe I just wasn't ready at that point. And so after college, I'd moved down to Atlanta, Georgia and was doing a new job, was doing a ton of music stuff, was like going to a new church [00:27:00] and kind of in a lot of the same way, like really lived in that over functioning mentality, but just on a, in a new place on an even bigger capacity and, and, you know, spread even more thin.

And it wasn't really until COVID hit that. It was the week before COVID. I went into a therapist's office because there was somebody that I was making no money my first year out of college. And, uh, they had like a therapist who would meet with you for a discounted rate because they finished all their schooling, but like they're getting their hours to get licensed.

And so I could actually afford it, which was awesome. And I got super blessed, uh, to actually be paired with like one of the best therapists of all time. And I'm very, very grateful for them. And, uh, yeah, I just walked in and I was like, you know, I've had one of the best years of my life. Like I've overcome a lot of challenges by moving to this new city, but something's off.

Like I know that something's off deep inside me and I just can't figure out why. And then, um, that really unlocked a process. And because of COVID and the slow down that I just had this time in my life to actually do the work and really [00:28:00] dig in. And so honestly, yeah, one of the biggest things that has helped me in my journey is therapy.

So I did that for three and a half years and I could, man, I really, I could probably write a whole book on everything that I've learned. But it really does take six to nine months of doing therapy on a weekly or bi weekly basis to really start seeing, um, and understanding some of the lessons that you've learned.

And I think this analogy might help some people who are, if you're weary of therapy, like I totally get it. You know, there's a lot of people who are, um, so I ran track in high school. And not because I wanted to, it's just because we didn't have a baseball team one year. And I was like, Oh, what the heck?

You got to do something. And so the first day of practice, our coach is like, you don't know how to run. And I was like, what are you talking about? I've been running my whole life. Who do you think you are? And then he proceeded to break down the mechanics of running, how, you know, you, in order to have the fastest time, you really have to make sure you're lifting your knee.

Fully extending your leg, like driving through, like kicking your feet. And then I realized, Oh, I was very wrong. There is a right way in a wrong way to run. [00:29:00] And the way I try to explain therapy to people is, you know, you might say, of course, I know how to feel my feelings. Like I've been me my whole life.

But until somebody really breaks it down for you and says, Hey, this is how you can sit with a negative emotion. And this is how you can name it and process it and give it space to be felt. You know, like you just don't know how to do that. And so for me, over a very long period of time, like this was not an overnight thing, slowly week by week, day by day, I learned what it was to find like one little feeling or one little negative thing that I can kind of pull out of that tornado.

And just sit with and like, take the 90 seconds or so to really feel that emotion and then start to process it. And it was just awesome, man. Like, I think for the first time in my life, I was really able to start taking some of those bigger chunks and move things out of this, like, bucket of unawareness, just all this stuff I was struggling with that I didn't even know about.

I moved it into the awareness of like, okay, this maybe is why I'm feeling this way and why I'm having these issues. And then slowly, as I was ready at a much slower pace than I wanted [00:30:00] to, because I was like, come on, why aren't we done with this yet? You know, just bit by bit, I was really able to process those, um, and get to a point where I really started to feel, you know, emotionally healthy.

Um, and I'd say like kind of where I was at the end of that, you know, fully transparent, like you will still have days where you're depressed. You will still have a lot of ordinary days and you'll still have some really good days. But I think I'm at a point now where when I'm healthy, I can really process my emotions in the moment or like day by day.

And so instead of just all of this backlog of feelings continuing to pile up and just kind of overwhelm me all at once, like a tidal wave crashing down, I can kind of take it like smaller wave by smaller wave, which is a much better way to live. And probably one of the biggest concepts I took away from therapy was, you know, the window of tolerance where they talk about, you know, trying to like regulate yourself where, you know, sometimes Like you just have this much energy to be able to feel things.

And so you want to stay inside that zone and you know, you can let negative stuff into the stuff to the degree that you can handle it. And then if you can't handle it, [00:31:00] you know, you just take a step back and be like, Hey, that's not where I'm at today. But I think overall therapy has helped me stay.

Increase my window of tolerance and just stay a little bit more regulated on a day to day basis.

Speaker: No, and that, that's like a transformation in itself, you know, from maybe being controlled by your emotions, or maybe your emotions drive you to act in a certain way that's like harmful to you to them being able to say, Nope, my emotions are not the boss.

Like I'm in control. But I'm not going to disregard them. I'm going to give them the space that they need. There's a reason they're there. They deserve some validation, some acknowledgement, but again, they're not going to be the boss of me. They're not going to control me. So what a good and like healthy way to process it all.

And I, um, that's so fascinating. You mentioned like unawareness to awareness. Cause we, we've noticed this trend in the interviews we've done on this podcast, that a lot of people kind of have that shift. Kind of on a meta like, um, macro level when they're looking at kind of the brokenness in their life that they might like you and I experienced understand that, man, yeah, I'm dealing with all these emotional problems, like anxiety, depression, loneliness.

[00:32:00] I maybe I'm acting out, you know, struggling with this, whatever anger, you know, reacting on anger or looking at porn or whatever other unhealthy behavior. But they so often don't have like a full awareness around it or they don't trace it back to its origin. Like how did this start? Where did this come from?

What's the root of it? Not just like the symptom. And then when they go through that period of moving from like unawareness to awareness, there's like this kind of eye opening this aha moment. Like when people say where it's like, okay, this is making more sense. Like it can connect the dots. I can understand kind of why you know, I do this, why I do that.

Um, but then they need tools kind of like you were saying to be able to deal with it all. And that sounds like what therapy gave you, which is so, so beautiful. And I think at that point, you know, you're able to then kind of move into this final stage of like, okay, so again, you're going from unawareness to awareness, then from the awareness, you kind of understand the things and you need to go into this like processing or healing stage.

And then it seems like the final stage there is like some form of freedom, not perfection, not like utopia that's not real, but some form of like freedom where it's not [00:33:00] controlling you anymore. So you somewhat described that model, which is really interesting. And again, that's not something we made up. It was just like something that popped up at us after doing like dozens of these stories, which I thought was.

Super, super interesting. One last point and then I'd love to hear if you have any thoughts on this is, um, how young, um, the Swiss psychologist, I think it was not endorsing everything he said, but he had this really interesting quote that he said until kind of talking about awareness and unawareness, he said, until you make like the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate.

So I think there is truly this kind of unconscious part of us that's really controlling our behavior and that until we go through the process that you described of like taking it out of the unawareness into the awareness from the subconscious into the conscious, that's when a lot of freedom can be found.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And that certainly is a process because when you're a kid, it's I feel bad. I always feel bad. I want to stop feeling bad. What makes me stop feeling bad? Insert anything that makes you stop feeling bad, whether it's good or a bad habit. [00:34:00] So yeah, and those things that you're unaware of, you know, those can carry on into your early twenties.

And if that's you, or if you're like way older than that, like, Dude, don't feel bad for that for a second. Like I want you to celebrate the fact that you may be for the first time coming aware of, Hey, there's some things weighing me down that maybe I don't even know about. Cause I think the biggest thing is really celebrating those little steps because it's truly not about arriving.

To a place of like, you know, happiness or all of these things. It's just every single day. You really got to celebrate those moments where you gain a little bit of healing in one area or a little bit of perspective in another. Yeah. And I just think everything you said with that quote is so true. Yeah.

Cause the things that we don't know. Do still affect us whether we're aware of them or not, but, you know, even moving those things into your awareness, like that's great. And, you know, if you don't have the ability to like figure all that out today, that's okay. And the second thing that was coming to me there.

[00:35:00] So that's, I think, really where I started, like somewhere near the end of my therapy, we kind of dived into like negative core beliefs. And I really became aware of some of those for the first time, like things that I subconsciously believed about myself. That were really affecting the way that I lived and to even just be able to name those was like, Oh my gosh, you know, sometimes I think for me, like, I'm not going to remember all of them, but like, I think one of the biggest ones was like, I have to do this all by myself or, you know, like it's all up to me.

And, you know, that's such an American thing that we celebrate of, yeah, go get a move to a new city, start a new job, find a band, like, look at you go pick yourself up by your own bootstraps, but that's just not how the world works. And there is some good virtue, you know, to being somebody who's courageous and willing to try and do things.

But I want to be transparent and just say that there's also a really shadow side to that of just believing that it's all up to you. And that if you, you know, don't figure it out, like. Your life [00:36:00] is going to be a waste or it's all going to go wrong. And so that's definitely something that at once I heard that, I was like, Oh my gosh, I could look back over all of my life and say like, yeah, I was just really driven by this, this fear and just this need to kind of, you know, move forward at all costs.

And so, yeah, and. I think towards the end of my therapy journey, you know, I had done a lot of good work. I was one of my biggest dreams. I don't think I mentioned it yet was always to be a touring drummer. That was just this big, like thing I wanted to do. And I had finally gotten a chance to do it. You know, I had toured all these States and I was just like, you know, circumstantially it was on top of the world.

But right after I got back from that, I remember sitting in my therapist's office and just telling her it feels like, um, if there's a Canyon, right. It feels like somebody put three steps on one end of the canyon and said, all right, go jump to the other side. It felt like I had just, or it felt like I had built these steps and I was running as fast as I could and jumping and just could not like overcome, you know, these negative feelings.

And [00:37:00] I really, you know, just hit this moment of kind of hopelessness. And I share that just to be honest that, you know, like, it's not like this super linear thing where you're just going to feel, you know, totally great at the end. And it's like, Hooray. You know, there's, it's truly like to the left, to the right, back, forward, up, down, and you know, that was a real moment that I experienced, but on flip side of that, you know, there's also some other really beautiful moments of just ordinary things.

Like in that year, you know, I had a chance to like go and tour and play drums, uh, which you would have thought, Oh, the best day you spent that year was traveling to this really cool place to play this awesome show. And actually my favorite day that year was getting to go home with my family. Go pick apples at an apple orchard and sit on the couch and just watch some football, you know?

And so I, I want to share that because I think, you know, it's easy in our society to believe that pursuing your dreams and building your best life is the path to healing and wholeness. And I think what's beautiful is [00:38:00] that, you know, the things that can really help give us a meaningful, purposeful, whole life are a lot of the things that are just available to all of us.

And I think that's so beautiful. Things like breathing, things like taking a walk outside, things about just like sharing a meal or a cup of coffee with a friend. You know, we don't need to master ourselves or become like the best in the world at something to be okay And I just I think there's such a beauty in that and so I know that's probably not everybody's default response to you know The things they've gone through but i'm sure that there's somebody out there who you know Just is kind of that that was their response was I have to do everything and so to that person I just want to take a moment to say that you can rest that you're worthy You Of that rest.

And there is a peace and there's a hope available to you and that you don't have to strive to find your worthiness. Your worthiness and value has already been bestowed upon you because of who you are, and there are people who can [00:39:00] celebrate that and really love you and lift you up for who you are, where you are beautiful.

Speaker: And I think you'd find this. What I've learned is that there's so many of us actually who do struggle with what you said of. Kind of this fierce independence and feeling like, man, it's all on our shoulders. And if we alter it all, we're going to, you know, have, it's going to have serious consequences. So that's a freeing and thank you for saying that there's so much more in your story.

I want to get into, um, but I do want to shift to relationships. So I'm curious kind of, yeah. How did you see your parents divorce, everything that happened in your family, affect your relationships, especially your dating relationships?

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. So for me, I had one serious relationship.

So my senior year of high school, I dated a girl I was friends with, and we dated for nine months and just had a really great relationship, you know, and then kind of at the end of high school, I just realized that, you know, I was going on to college and different things. And so I was the one who actually broke up with her.

And I felt horrible about that. I felt devastated, you know, cause it wasn't like [00:40:00] there was anything wrong with her. I just knew that I wasn't ready to get married because I was not trying to get married at 18, 19 or 20. And based off of what I had been taught, you know, that was kind of the purpose of dating was like just to get married.

And so that really wrecked me. And I think, you know, kind of an unconscious agreement. That I made with myself was, well, I'm not going to date anybody until the next person I date is the person I'm going to marry, which is a dumb agreement to make with yourself. But I think that I was just so hurt by that.

And I didn't want to cause that pain to somebody else. You know, that, that was kind of unconsciously what was going on for me. And so when I got to college, you know, I had tons of opportunities, you know, to like, I was just around so many great people and I definitely could have, you know, gone on dates, but I think half jokingly, half serious.

I was like, well, I don't want to get married. I don't want to get married young. You know, I gotta, I gotta play drums in a band. And that was kind of my cop out funny response. But you know, by the time I was 21 and my third year of college, I was like, Oh man, this is a really deep [00:41:00] desire that I have. And so to be honest, like I've gone, you know, on a lot of dates, but I haven't really been in a serious relationship since that time, which, so I'm definitely still working through that.

And I feel like I'm just now kind of getting to a point where I'm ready. To jump into, I guess, kind of that. And so I think that is probably one of the negative ways that I don't know, I guess like the divorce, but also like, you know, I'm sure that has to do with me personally. But like, I think I just one of my regrets is not having been more willing to do that.

Sooner, because I think I let fear kind of have a little bit more control there than it needed to. So that's the honest version.

Speaker: Yeah, no, thanks for the honest version. That's what I love to hear. And yeah, man, the fear held me back so long and so much in my relationships and gosh, I held off from dating for a while because I was just really afraid, if I'm honest.

Maybe I would have said it was something different, but I was just like, I felt kind of clueless and incompetent when it came to love [00:42:00] relationships, dating, like I thought in marriage, you know, I thought like other people knew what they were doing and I just. Did not. And it just brought a lot of anxiety into my life, a lot of fear.

So anyway, I can really relate. And the whole breakup component too, I think they're harder for people like us. Not to say that breakups don't suck whenever you go through them, but yeah, I I've seen what, what I've seen is like, it can almost feel like a mini divorce. And obviously it's not a breakup is actually a good thing in many ways.

Cause it's like, well, I've decided that I'm not going to spend the rest of my life with this person, but it's really. Painful to go through. And so, yeah, I, I've seen that. I think I know I've even felt that too. It was like, if I were to break up with this person, it's like abandoning them. And I just like have such a strong instinct to me to never abandon anyone because of what I went through.

And that could really, that could cause some damage, especially if it's a relationship or a time in your life when, you know, it's not going to work out like you described. So I think, yeah, there's a lot to navigate there when it comes to relationships and breakups.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And again, you know, that's not something that you realize in the moment because in [00:43:00] the moment, it's like, I know this isn't a divorce.

I know this is just a breakup, but I think your body feels like it's a divorce. And it's like, no, but last time it wasn't my fault, but this time it is my fault. And I think that's the subconscious thing. And that's why, you know, it can be so powerful. And so, yeah, I just don't think I was even aware of all that.

But then ironically, recently, uh, Me and that girlfriend connected a couple years ago, just caught up randomly on the phone, just totally platonic, just as friends. And, uh, I was just like, Oh, she's fine. I'm fine. Like, you know, I'm not a bad person. And I was like, I realized in that moment, I was like, I have been carrying this shame for years and I had like no reason to be carrying that, you know?

And so, yeah,

Speaker: No, that's beautiful. I, similar with me, like the girls I dated awesome girls. I'm just didn't work out for some reason, uh, whatever reason. And, uh, now they're doing great. They seem like they're doing great in life and I'm super happy for them. And so anyway, I can totally relate with you. And I think there, there's a lot of peace [00:44:00] that can come from that.

Cause we, yeah, I think it is natural when you love someone to feel a level of responsibility toward them. Like you, you want the best for them. And that's a good thing. And I don't think like, just because you break up with them, it's like automatically stopping as if you can cut out a part of your heart and never feel anything like, like you care deeply for them.

And so you, you want the best for them. So I totally can see the different layers to what you're saying there. So thanks for sharing all that. And, uh, I'm sure there's so much more we could say on the relationship topic. I did want to shift over to, when it comes to healing, you already mentioned a ton of things that have helped you heal.

I'm curious if there's anything else maybe that we haven't talked about so far that was really instrumental in helping you to, to heal and to cope with everything.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think just to, to get really practical, um, to kind of like the up to date. So when I was kind of winding down therapy and was still, you know, feeling depressed and just kind of having some of those thoughts, I think one thing that I decided to do is just to kind of get back To some habits that I had that, you know, really helped me feel good at a different point in my life.

And so for me, [00:45:00] and again, this is not for everybody, but just what I decided to do for a three month time period was like, all right, I'm going to cut out coffee. I'm going to cut out drinking and kind of, I started running again, which was something that I had done very frequently in high school. Cause you know, I did soccer and track, but after that it was just always very sporadic.

And then, you know, actually ended up training for a longer race that I ran with my brother. And I think just having that was, you know, something good because I really think when it comes to the healing thing, like I think physical movement and exercise has so much more to offer us than we're even aware of.

And, you know, that was just so beneficial for me. So to anybody who is feeling stuck, like. You know, if that is within your power to take a 10 minute walk or a 15 minute walk, just start there. You know, like even when I was working a job that was crazy hours, that was super difficult, like way over the top, I would make time to just do pushups once a day with all my buddies in the office.

And like, you know, little things like that can make [00:46:00] a big difference. So that's something practical. That's kind of just like more recent in my life. Yeah, I'm just thinking other healing. Can I jump

Speaker: in there for a second? I was just thinking how useful that tip you just said is, and just wanted to add my take on it.

So often for me, when I was going through like really tough, broken parts of my life, and I was really struggling, I often found that I would just like get stuck in my head. I know, or I would like hyper focus on my emotions. And like you just described, it was just really freeing to kind of get out of my mind and like into my body.

And so, like you said, like working out doing, you know, just enjoying like a beautiful sunset, going on a walk, swimming, like whatever form that took, just some sort of like movement and kind of some sort of sensory experience, healthy sensory experience, like. Yeah, that was healing. That was helpful. It helped calm me down, especially if I was anxious or gave me a little bit of life if I was like down and depressed.

So yeah, all of that I think is super, super useful and very practical for someone who maybe is in the midst of it right now.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And then a different avenue that's been, I think, just really beautiful for me [00:47:00] personally. I know that not everybody has more of an artistic bend, but for me, like, I'm not a great painter, but like what does come naturally To me is writing.

So I really just enjoy writing, you know, just about my feelings. And that's something that I was encouraged to do kind of starting in high school, but just, you know, writing journaling has been really, really powerful for me. And then I think just kind of the acts of little beautiful things. So I'm a drummer and I can't actually like write songs because I don't understand melody, but I've learned enough to be able to, you know, write these little attempts at songs.

And. It's just so joy filling and life bringing for me to be able to take this thing that I feel and, you know, communicate it and put it into these melody and these lyrics. And then to be able to, you know, hopefully one day share that with other people. And again, like full transparency, this is not on Spotify.

I am not good at this. This is just something that I do purely because I love it. And so, you know, whatever your thing is Don't assume that you have to be a master at any [00:48:00] artistic endeavor for it to have value in your life. Like art just has this beautiful healing capacity that's available to all people.

You know, everybody has a voice. Everybody can sing, even if it's out of tune, you know, most people, I shouldn't say that caveat most people, but you know, like we all have opportunities to just really explore those little artistic creative things. So whatever that is for you, like, I would just encourage you to throw yourself into that.

With the confidence of a little kid just, you know, so excited to try something because it's kind of like the backdoor to healing, you know, in the same way I was talking about how drumming was just super good for me. I think those, there's something really special about art and creativity and just those things that bring us pleasure that there's no expectations tied to, you know, that can just really be a beautiful avenue to kind of take you out of all the negative and just kind of give you this backdoor into.

Yeah, just a positive frame of mind.

Speaker: So good. And it's so interesting what I've learned from like listening to trauma therapists and even interviewing someone here is being artistic accesses the part of your [00:49:00] brain where trauma typically stored. Um, it's like the emotional part of your brain. So you have.

One brain theory, this is just one, is like you divide your brain into two, there's like the logical part, which is more associated with like math, solving problems, you know, logic, things like that. Then there's the emotional side of your brain, which is more associated with, yeah, just being artistic, like kind of feeling feelings and then, you know, responding in like emergency situations.

It's not as much thoughtful, so to say, but just more reactive. And when we do When we're artistic, it actually accesses that part of our brain. And what can often happen with trauma is that when we go through something traumatic, that emotional part of our brain takes over because we get in this like fight or flight mode.

And so that part of the brain actually like commandeers everything else. And so it can be really difficult, like you described earlier in your story, can be really difficult to put into words those experiences that we've been through, the struggles that we're having because they're so deeply like ingrained in that emotional side of the brain.

And so one of the ways that therapists like activate that or access that is through art. And so, [00:50:00] like you said, super, super helpful in healing. And you don't necessarily need a therapist to like do art, but they use it in their therapy to, to help kind of bring healing. And so one thing too, about that, that I've learned, I mentioned this in other episodes, but.

Um, that emotional side of your brain doesn't have a sense of time. And so, like we were saying before, if you haven't kind of brought closure to some trauma from your past, some really difficult experience that you had that really left an impact on you and you weren't able to really cope with well, then yeah, it can like still be affecting you to this day to where you can be walking around like you're.

You know, 25, 30 year old man, but if it's triggered in the right way, you can then act like a 10 year old. And, and this happens a lot, right? And so one of the ways to, to heal that is to, you know, kind of access that part of your brain and be able to tell, you know, that younger you, Hey, this is over. It's in the past.

We're like a better, stronger person now to handle it. Like that was a really difficult thing to go through. Not. Minimizing it at all. But now we can like move on with our life. It's not, doesn't need to control us. So anyway, [00:51:00] not to go on that too much of a tangent there, but I thought it's really powerful.

And I think just validates the whole thing of like, yeah, art is a good thing. And whatever form that takes for you, I think it can be really, really healing.

Speaker 2: And I think one last thing that I would be remiss if I didn't share, um, I remember after I'd had that sixth grade moment, I was going on like this kind of church retreat and, you know, I just always felt like at school, you know, I was made fun of or put down and just, you know, kids in the neighborhood, like whatever it just, there was never really a space where I knew that I could fully be myself and just be accepted.

And for me, I found that space for the first time at the youth group at our church. And I just remember, you know, Feeling love for who I was and that, you know, I could really be accepted as I am. And again, you know, I know that there's many people from many different faith and belief backgrounds. Um, and so, you know, whatever that looks like for you, I just truly, I think that's the thing that's made the biggest difference for me was just having, you know, a couple older adults outside my immediate family, really believe in me and [00:52:00] pour into me and really having a community of people, just a safe space where I could just belong.

And just be totally weird and totally, you know, goofy and just be accepted and be celebrated for that. And so I just realized I was like, wow I've spent this whole time talking about everything else except, you know Probably the thing that has had the biggest impact And you know that could be hard to find like especially if you're kind of out of the school college environment Like that's difficult to find but man it is worth fighting for and it is worth Putting yourself out there to find those spaces because, you know, at the end of the day, we're social beings, social creatures that are sometimes rational.

You know, we're not rational creatures that are sometimes social. So yeah, we really do need other people. And, uh, I hope that if you don't have people like that, that you can find them. And, you know, I'm certainly, I think there's A lot of people who would want to connect with you like that

Speaker: really good stuff.

I love how practical all of your advice has been. You've done this throughout the conversation, but if you would kind of quickly summarize, how's your life different now? Like you've gone through [00:53:00] this healing process, this transformation, obviously we're always still a work in progress. It's not something that's necessarily one and done.

And like you said before, healing isn't linear. It kind of, you know, jumps around. It's personal. It's the way we talk about it. So I'm just curious. Yeah. Contrast, um, for us quickly, how life is now to compared to how it was.

Speaker 2: Man, you get me excited, Joey. This is good stuff, man. So, I mean, honestly, you know, like full transparency, I was crying in my car yesterday, like the ups and the downs are still there, but man, I.

Genuinely for all the struggle and all the pain and the deep grief that I feel like I've walked through, I feel like through strength outside of my own, that I have really come to experience a hope that is deep and that's lasting. And I really, you know, believe that God wants that for everybody and that that's available to everybody.

And I just, you know, whether you believe in that or not, like God loves you, he does have a plan for your life. He's always been there for you. He always will be there for you. And [00:54:00] I just really, you know, if you are, if you don't believe that right now for yourself, just know that I'm believing that for you.

And yeah, man, like it's funny because if 27 year old me sat down with. Eight year old me, 10, 15, 20 year old me and said, there's hope I might laugh in his face and try to fight him, you know, but truly just in the most compassionate way I can say it, dude, there is hope in your darkest night. There is hope in the midst and the thickness of the struggle.

You know, you might not be able to see that, but I promise you that there is a morning. The morning does come. And I just want you to hold on to that, man. Like whoever's listening to this, like, just get some fire in your chest and just like, know that, you know, it's not all ever going to be okay, but like, it's meaningful and there is purpose.

And so I just hope that you feel empowered that no matter who you are, no matter where you've come from, no matter what your circumstances are, like there is a plan for your life and it is meaningful and it is purposeful. You're loved. And you're valuable and you're needed so

Speaker: [00:55:00] good, man. Thank you for all that.

And if someone wanted to get in touch with you or maybe even check out some of your music, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So I haven't, uh, released any of my music, but I'm happy to like, share with you my little garage band demos, which is just me and an acoustic guitar, like do it a little bit.

But yeah, I'm definitely happy to like reach out to people via email. Um, you know, we can just connect there and then, uh, can go from there. And I think, uh, you'll have that available for people too.

Speaker: Yeah. Thank you. We'll throw that in the show notes and no, I'm excited to, uh, once. Yeah. You know, whenever. You do put stuff on Spotify.

We'll be ready to listen. So it was awesome. Thank you so much. And man, what you just said was like kind of the last word, but I just want to throw it back to you maybe one more time and just see if there's any final pieces of encouragement or advice that you would give to the younger, you listening right now, like to close this out, what would you say?

And again, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2: Yeah, man, thank you so much for having me. It's a, it's an absolute joy just to be able to [00:56:00] share, you know, The real depths of the hardness to be able to share the real, the real heights of the hope what I would say to my younger self. Oh, man, that's a deep one. Um, I feel like for, for me personally, you know, it's hard not to give a faith based answer for this one.

Um, so I think for me, it would just be that. God's promises are true. And I think at the end of the day, it's hard to believe sometimes that he is always there for us and that he loves us and he has a plan, but enduringly through the worst, the best, and the most like crazy moments of my life, I have really witnessed those to be true.

And I'm grateful that I get to testify of that today.

Speaker: If you'd like to share your story with us like Ethan did, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three simple steps. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story. Reflecting on your story and sharing your story with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level.

It makes your brain healthier, according to [00:57:00] neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives, they're healthier, they're happier, they're less depressed. less anxious, uh, and so on. And finally, it can just be super helpful for someone to read your story.

Who's maybe a few steps behind you, they're going through things that you went through. They can get a lot of encouragement and advice by reading. Your story. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored. Ministry dot com slash story on that page. You'll Tell your story, uh, following the forms, just a short version of your story.

And then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. Again, you can share your story now at restored ministry. com slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal [00:58:00] from the trauma you've endured and build virtue, too. So you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone, you know, you can go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents, divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them honestly. Feel free to take 30 seconds now to just text them and just say, Hey, I heard this episode thought of you, thought it might be helpful.

I promise you as someone who comes from a broken family, if someone would have done that to me, it would have been super, super helpful. In closing, always remember you're not alone. We're to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending. [00:59:00]

Restored 5/7/24 Restored 5/7/24

#122: What Caused So Many Broken Marriages & Families? | Dr. John Bishop, PhD

With so many marriages and families falling apart, the natural question is: What has caused all these broken marriages and families?

With so many marriages and families falling apart, the natural question is: What has caused all these broken marriages and families?

In this episode, Dr. John Bishop unveils the surprising root cause, plus:

The crisis of masculinity facing our world right now
The proper place of happiness within marriage
An awesome digital hack to protect yourself and your relationships

MyForge.org

DakotaLaneFitness.com

Fight the new drug

Buy Jason Evert’s booklet, Pure Intimacy

Buy Jason Evert’s talk, Green Sex

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

[00:00:00] With so many marriages and families falling apart, the natural question to ask is, what caused all of this? What caused all of these broken marriages and families? And that's what we discuss in this episode. I'm joined by Dr. John Bishop, who unveils the really surprising truth about what caused all these problems.

Plus, we discuss things like the crisis of masculinity facing our world right now, the proper place of happiness, where within marriage, an awesome digital hack that he offers to protect yourself and your family and your relationships. And finally, a new resource for married men. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can break free.

The Cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 122. We're so [00:01:00] thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard a lot of great feedback. One listener said this, I just finished listening to episode 33 where you discussed in depth that meta analysis study on children of divorce.

You did a great job explaining the contents of that study. I'm looking forward to listening to the other episodes as well. Again, we're super happy to hear that the podcast has been not only helpful, but even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out or eating healthy or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, Then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, a 75 year olds and people who've never even set foot in a gym. Before Dakota builds a customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But [00:02:00] what makes Dakota unique? There's so many fitness and nutrition coaches out there. What makes Dakota unique? I want to mention three things. One, He's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped dude, uh, but he's also a good, virtuous man who's not just obsessed with his looks. Second thing I'd say is he, he studied actually to become a priest for a little while, and through that experience and his time at Franciscan University of Steubenville and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that, uh, to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life, and neglecting the rest, like your body.

We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free. And Dakota's mission really is to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way they were made to be treated, not just to get ripped and to look good on the beach or something like that.

And so, um, if you desire freedom, if you desire transforming your body and your life, Dakota can help you. One client said this, Dakota Lane changed my life. Then the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth [00:03:00] every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so to, to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have experienced, just go to dakota lane fitness.com. Dakota lane fitness.com, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Dr. John Bishop. I'm really excited for you guys to hear from him.

John started his professional career working at the Fellowship of Catholic University Students called FOCUS. During his tenure with FOCUS, John served as a campus missionary, and he compiled and wrote a variety of resources and even taught On a variety of topics as well. He oversaw several departments at focuses, uh, international headquarters, but is best known for co founding and scaling the focus summer projects and intensive collegiate summer formation program.

And while working at focus, John earned his doctorate from the Catholic university of America, writing his dissertation on the nature of masculine virtue. Super interesting. Uh, and inspired by the thought of John [00:04:00] Paul, the second John is now fighting for men and for the family as the founder and executive director of forge, which.

which you'll hear about in this episode. John lives in Des Moines, Iowa, with his wife, Caitlin, and their three children. Before jumping in, I just want to say that we do talk about God and faith in this episode. And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. This is not a strictly religious podcast.

Anyone who's been listening to this for a while knows that. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. I just want to issue a challenge to you. If you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you're to take out or skip the God part, you're still going to benefit from this The other thing I wanted to say is if you happen to have kids around, um, this might be a good episode to put earphones in because we do talk about some mature topics.

But with that, here's my conversation with Dr. John. John, so good to have you on the show. Welcome. I'm so excited to hear about the work that you're doing and what you offer to help marriages and men and families and all that. But I wanted to start with the problem. And so I'm curious, what are the main problems that married couples are facing today?

Yeah. So, [00:05:00] I think that a lot of the problems facing married couples facing families today can be encapsulated as what you might call the difficulties brought about by the revolutions, I say. So if we were to consider the industrial revolution, the sexual revolution, and now what you might call the digital revolution, we've got a whole host of problems that have been brought to the doorstep of the family, to the doorstep of every marriage.

That is existing in the 21st century, particularly in developed countries, and I think the collective effect of those revolutions is to take a whole picture of marriage and family that was that was previously very united, a way of being that was steeped in tradition that was interconnected across generations, um, that had a certain integrity to it, especially when it comes to sexuality.

That whole image was kind of torn apart, um, over the course of, of a couple of generations. And so the industrial revolution takes, you know, various generations of families, and you've got then grandfathers living in one part [00:06:00] of the country, children living in another part of the country, you know, grandchildren still living in a third, commutes coming in and, and, and people spending large portions of their days, you know, at, uh, in different places, um, you got to the sexual revolution and the ecosystem.

That we related to one another in sexually that constituted the foundation of many people's, uh, way of being when it comes to, um, to culture and to society at large. All that's rent us under. And now the latest thing just in the last couple of decades is what you might call the digital revolution. Okay.

So you've got, uh, the distraction, just to name one example of phones, the, the whole digital way of living that whether in professional context or a personal context, people relate in. All of these things together, industrial revolution, digital revolution, sexual revolution, taking that fabric of the family and tearing it apart.

And so if I was to say concisely, what are the problems facing the family today, I would say it's the [00:07:00] problem of the revolutions. Now I think that that set of problems has a particularly catastrophic effect on men, particularly on a man's ability to be a committed husband and father, and it's to that set of problems that that forge the organization I run, um, responds most especially.

Love that. No, so good. And I love how you edit the digital revolution. I haven't really heard people talk much about that. Of course, we hear about the industrial and the sexual revolutions, but that's fascinating. One of the things, just kind of a side note I love about you, I remember when we were texting recently to kind of set up this interview, you mentioned like, Hey, I'm shutting my phone down for the night.

And I was like, that's amazing. Talk about that for a second. What's that habit that you guys have? Well, like, Perhaps many of our listeners today, I am hopelessly addicted to the nicotine that is pumping out of my iPhone. And I, uh, I've not made the jump and, you know, gone to a dumb phone, although I applaud the people who do.

Props to you. I've, I've not taken the [00:08:00] leap myself, but my wife and I have made the decision at different points in our marriage and with a renewed fervor in the last six months to have portions of our day that are basically technology free and the, and the biggest. Kind of threat I take when it comes to technology is is the threat of an iPhone and my wife has an eyewatch.

But what we'll do it's a pretty simple system. We have an old shoe box that sits in a coat closet right by our front door. Okay. And sits on the top shelf. There's no lock on it or anything like that. It's a cardboard box so you can, you can. grab whatever's in it pretty easily, but you do have to go through the intentional act of getting whatever's inside it.

And from 515, which is about the time when I'm, I'm wrapping up work every day through to when our toddlers go down to bed. So about seven 30, we'll just go no, no technology whatsoever in our home. Now we do a similar thing on Sundays as well, so that there is some time where. Our family is interacting with one another.

That's sacred space, which is [00:09:00] our vocations. Um, that the center, uh, gosh, just the most intimate part of our lives is not kind of impinged upon by the, by the trillion dollar industry, you know, which is contemporary technology. I mean, if you think about it, anytime that you, you have an iPhone or, or any other device of that nature in your sphere, there is literally a billion trillion dollar industry that is bent on getting in contact with you.

So you shouldn't be surprised when that trillion dollar industry threatens. Your ability to have a good conversation with your wife, your ability to have a meaningful interaction with your child. And I think that, um, you know, it's really just something that everyone should consider, you know, just having periods of time set aside where you've got, you've got no technology, at least in the modern sense.

Now, somebody might ask when you hear about these policies, what, what if somebody absolutely has to get ahold of you? Well, I've got another tip for that. So something my wife and I have also done. Get a landline. So it's, it's been one of the most freeing things for us is, uh, take a, [00:10:00] you know, a time warp, you know, go, go back to the days of the Neanderthals, um, get a landline and we have, uh, you know, maybe, maybe a dozen people in our lives, some, some close friends and my parents, um, back before I founded my own ministry that, uh, my direct supervisors at work, they all had the numbers for those landlines.

Uh, so that if, if you absolutely need to get ahold of me, There's still the option there, right? But you got to call that number, you know, it's got to be a pretty intentional thing. And so I think in, in a couple of years of having that landline, there was like three calls, you know, over the course of that whole time that actually got through.

So anyway, that's how we approach it. So a lot, a lot of different and wonderful ways to approach technology. No, I love it. And I'm sure there's a lot of barriers that people. We'll think of, you know, when it comes to like doing some sort of routine like that, which I love, I want to talk to my wife about doing it because recently after texting you and you saying that I realized like, my goodness, there's so many moments, even though we're pretty good with it, there's so many moments where like, you know, you're on your phone and you know, my daughter's like standing right there.

It's like, uh, I don't want to be doing that. And [00:11:00] so no, I love that. And one of the things too, like for me, my brain always puts up different barriers. Like I mentioned that my people might be thinking of, and like one of them is like, I'm like, I have such a restless mind. Like I'm always having new ideas and thoughts and things that I need to like, get into some system, otherwise I'll just forget them.

And so the, one of the things I realized early on is like pen and paper, it's like, you can just like have that next to your bed, couch or wherever and write that down and then later you put that into, you know, your phone or your task system or whatever. And so I think there are like a lot of great solutions, you know, at the alarm solution too.

It's like, well, Buy an alarm clock. I mean, not really rolling the clock back that far, but just rolling it back 20, 30 years, uh, really ups your game in terms of your freedom to focus on the relationships that are in your presence at any given moment. And so little step that we've decided to take, and it's been generally a good thing.

We practice it very imperfectly. Yeah, no, I mean, even doing it imperfectly. And I've even seen like the most disciplined people that I know they might only succeed at their. discipline like 80 to 90 percent of [00:12:00] the time, but that's still a win. You know, if you hit a baseball 80 to 90 percent of the time, you're like unheard of.

So I think it's a, it's an incredible thing. No, so good. And so much more, I'm sure we can say about that, but I appreciate like your example and just wanted to applaud that. Going back to this whole, you know, discussion of like the problems that are facing marriages today. I think one of them is that there's so many lies when it comes to lies about love.

And so I'm just curious, kind of, what are some of the poisons, or what are some of the lies that are poisoning marriages when it comes to love? Yeah, Joey, when I think about lies poisoning marriage today, I think, gosh, what comes to mind for me is the notion of the language of the body. All right. So some of our listeners may have heard of this, some of them may have not heard of it, but the idea of the language of the body is that the body is designed in a certain way so as to speak a language.

Okay. So for example, you can't do something with your body and have it mean just anything, you know, now some things you can. So like, for example, the language, which is [00:13:00] sign languages. Entirely contrived and we could make a new symbol that would mean whatever. Well, we want it to mean, okay? But there are some things when they're done with the body that that means something very specific and it would it would be difficult To change the meaning of those things at least drastically across time and place, right?

So like for example, if I was to you know, reach through the cybersphere right now, you know and punch you in the nose Joey, it would be very difficult for me to convince you that that means I love you Right. And, you know, in the same way, the things that we do with our bodies sexually express a certain thing, you know, and so, for example, you know, the sexual act expresses a certain degree of commitment, right?

Because after all, in the natural, I keep using the word ecosystem today. It must be the word of the day in the natural ecosystem of sexuality. There is at least some relation between sexuality and children, right? So to engage in sexuality in an entirely casual switching partners all of the time type of fashion can cause a kind of confusing effect on the body because, well, after all, our psychology isn't [00:14:00] developed so as to interact with one another in that way, all right?

Now, When people ask me, and I, I'm going to give a little bit of a, an old take here, but simultaneously a hot take when people ask me, what are some of the most difficult effects that are facing marriages today? If I had to pick one, I would pick contraception. I would say that In the sexual ecosystem, running with this analogy a little bit more, if there's any core thing that is brought about a destabilization of our sexual culture at large, and also of our individual relationships with one another, I think it's the effect of contraception.

You know, and I've, it's interesting, I've actually found religious or non religious, more millennials and Gen Z folks who are entirely amenable to this position. So like, for example, I was in a production studio four or five months ago with a couple of artists who were basically running the tech and the sound in the studio, entirely non religious people.

And, One of these men had decided to throw contraception out of [00:15:00] his marriage because he felt as though he was basically introducing something that was unnatural into this very intimate relationship that he had with his wife. So his, he and his wife had, had started using Natural methods of either pursuing or avoiding pregnancy in their relationship and he spoke about what a wonderful effect it had had on his specific relationship with his wife as if everything had become to some extent more authentic, you know, so thinking of this idea of the language of the body that the way in which he spoke to his wife sort of spoke to her physically had been greatly enhanced by doing things in a more natural way.

I've heard people use the term green sex before, so that's individual relationships, but then society at large, when I think of the sexual revolution and the destabilization of marriage and family that's happened over the course of the last two, three generations, that destabilization was largely brought about, or at least fanned into flame by the advent of the pill of contraception.

And I, I don't think we [00:16:00] would have many of the problems that we have in the family today were it not for contraception. I totally agree with you. I, you know, contraception led to an increase in abortion, obviously. And then it led to the problem that we honestly are facing in my apostle, which is divorce, right?

Broken families, just how You know, along with the contraceptive mentality kind of elevated the feelings and the happiness quote unquote of the adults over anything else, really. And so if I was happier running off with this other woman, even though I made a commitment to my spouse, if that was what was going to make me happy, then I should just go ahead and do that, even if it left so much damage in my wake.

And I think that kind of contraceptive mentality has just plagued our society in so many ways. I think that's right. Yeah, it's taken a very intimate part of our beings as humans, that is the sexual dimension of our beings, um, a dimension that is ultimately oriented towards making a gift of oneself, and which involves a kind of submission to the natural order, you know, that, that God imbued in the universe, and kind of [00:17:00] flips it on its head, right, where, where sex becomes not gift, but take, and where the orientation that we bring into sexuality, or our approach to it, maybe to use a better term, um, doesn't assent to the natural, but rather sets itself up against nature, you know?

And I just think that has all kinds of primary, secondary, tertiary negative effects across human psychology, that, uh, we really work destruction on ourselves, on our own ability to be sexually satisfied even. when we introduce that kind of toxin, that kind of unnatural elements into a very delicate ecosystem.

So good. I couldn't agree more. I remember seeing a secular headline saying like, talking about pornography, it was saying like, porn is ruining sex for everyone. You know, we're facing like so many problems now with people, you know, with erectile dysfunction, like all sorts of issues that, you know, stem from, again, this kind of, like you're saying, this warped.

version of sexuality that we sometimes think of as liberty, but in the end, it's not really making us more free. It's actually enslaving us to something [00:18:00] that we never really wanted or desired in the first place. Yeah, pornography is a great example. And you know, I was talking to somebody who runs pornography recovery groups earlier this morning.

And, uh, I'm preparing in a few weeks now for my own apostolate to launch similar groups. You know, porn might be kind of the, if contraception is at the root of the stream, like pornography might be where the stream of our sexual dysfunction kind of bottoms out, where, uh, you have another instance of inauthenticity.

Sexual inauthenticity being consumed on a regular basis and rendering people less able to be sexually authentic, right? I mean, is there any greater contradiction to this idea of the language of the body than relating to the pixels on a computer screen? Right? Or on an iPhone screen that pornography warps us so easily.

And I want to point out something there, you know, the word warp, I think is exactly correct that our sexual preferences, our ability to sexually relate to an actual real human being are deeply warped by [00:19:00] pornography. I had an intimate series of conversations with a number of people who, uh, were more or less struggling with same sex attraction who had no difficulties with same sex attraction whatsoever.

prior to starting to use pornography. And the allure of heterosexual porn couldn't really satisfy them, so to speak, anymore. So then they kind of just kept moving to, you know, another form of novelty, you know, down the line of the pornographic train and found themselves with a very, an even more distorted view of sexuality than when they began.

And I can't help but think that pornography is sort of the bridge, the gateway drug to so many sexual manipulations. You know, in so many people, both of their own psychology, you know, the sexual abuse that comes about as a result of pornography and so many other disheartening things. So yeah, fight the new drug.

If you haven't been to the website go, um, and fight the new drug. org and wake up to the fact that, yeah, it's, It'll be difficult to get off pornography if you're in any way connected to it, but it's a fight worth fighting. [00:20:00] The best way I've heard it said from fight the new drug and people like Jason Everett and Matt Fradd is that, you know, porn porn just destroys your ability to love because it just teaches you to use people.

And there's no way you can build an authentic relationship built on real love. If all you're looking is to just use someone for your own gratification. And so. That's a big topic. I'm sure we could go much deeper there, but I'm just curious if there are any other, um, maybe lies around marriage that you've seen really destroy marriages.

And I wanted to offer one, um, if that's okay, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. And that is, yeah, just believing that like the purpose of marriage is happiness. Because I think so often in our culture, we see it as like this vehicle, this tool, this way of becoming like happier. And what I've seen, you know, what I've learned is like the purpose of marriage is not happiness.

The purpose of marriage is holiness. You know, there's nothing in the marriage vows that actually, the traditional marriage vows that promise happiness. And I know that sounds super unromantic, but I think it's so important because what I've seen, especially in doing this work, is like, you know, Underneath almost every divorce is [00:21:00] this, you know, belief, conscious or not, that, you know, we expect our spouse to make us perfectly happy.

And if they don't, then we might think, man, maybe I've married the wrong spouse, or maybe I even like, you know, pick the wrong vocation or whatever. And we might even be tempted to leave. And many people do. Um, and so I think that's one thing that I think we need to get back to is that it's not just, meant to be this like walk in the park, this easy thing, it's meant to be something that is going to make us the best version of ourselves, so to speak, is meant to make us, um, holy.

And it's meant to help us to, you know, uproot the vices that we have and to replace those with virtues and so many other things. But I think, um, it's really freeing actually to hear that because then, you know, okay, my marriage is not just subject to the whims of my feelings or, you know, my quote unquote happiness.

It's really, there's this greater purpose and this greater goal in all of it. Yeah, I love what you said. I'm going to play with that for a little bit and tell me what you think of this. So on the one hand, you might say that it would be a mistake to enter a marriage if your idea of marriage is just to make you more happy in some shallow sense of [00:22:00] happiness, you know?

So like, for example, I will enter into this marriage because I, I really enjoy going on trips with this person, you know, or I love the way that our tastes compliment one another, you know, or, or whatever it is that understanding of happiness, which is, I think, unfortunately, the view of happiness that a lot of millennials, Gen Z's, even baby boomers before us took into marriage is, is the attitude that brought about so many broken families.

Now, ultimately, I do think that marriage serves a purpose of making people more happy. But I want to say this, and this is really just kind of what I'd love for you to try and precise, um, the purpose of marriage is not happiness. The purpose of marriage is to explode your idea of happiness. All right. So it's like, look, I am convicted that anybody who enters into marriage and is married for longer than 20 minutes will suffer to a degree that they could not have possibly anticipated.

So it's like, no matter how experienced you are, when it comes to your understanding of marriage, if you've got [00:23:00] a doctorate in psychology and another doctorate in theology, and you love John Paul II and you're just all about marriage and you've, you know, you've dated the person well and whatever, I don't care.

Marriage is going to break you. That's how that's going to go. Almost no matter what that is, that you will hit points in your marriage that will bring you to your knees. It will be so hard, but that difficulty will open up your interiority, open up your spirit to entire vistas of happiness that were previously unavailable to you.

So, it's like, I think one of the things that makes marriage so brilliant is that it takes place till death do you part. That is when couples sign up to get married, they could not possibly have an idea ultimately of what their marriage is going to look like 20 years later. Nevertheless, you're committed to somebody and something psychologically happens for people when you, you start, you know, I've only been married for five years, so not a very long period of time in relation to a lot of people [00:24:00] who.

have much more business talking about this topic than either of us do. Um, but something kind of settles into like the way that you love somebody when the years keep passing by. And there's a way in which the suffering gets more heavy. I guess you could say, I don't really, I don't know that I like that term, but the suffering gets at least more real, but simultaneously your vanities die.

Um, your ability to Actually understand a person and accept them for all of the different facets of their being is heightened beyond measure in a way that it could never be heightened if there was even the smallest bit of openness, openness to ending the relationship, you know, it's like when people say that they, you know, yeah, we've been married for seven years, but you know, we're open to it ending someday.

What I want to say to them is, well, actually, you haven't been married for even a single minute. Because you haven't been married at all until you've been married till death do you part. Because there's, there's, there's a, there's a threshold that you cross over when you enter into that kind of commitment that actually sets you free to love a [00:25:00] person in the way that only their spouse can love them.

That is only the way that somebody who's committed until death to you apart, no matter what can love them. And so sure, like, I suppose people shouldn't enter marriage to quote, be happy. That is if they have a false shallow understanding of happiness, but if they want to have. A much deeper understanding of happiness that is if you want your vision of happiness to be exploded into something so much better than it actually is now, then get married because you don't know what marriage is going to be.

There's no way to perfectly prepare, but your vision of happiness will be exploded and deepened. So good. No, I love that. And I love that distinction between like the shallow sense of happiness and this, you know, deeper sense of happiness because I totally agree with you when I talk about happiness when I give talks on this topic or, you know, talk about the lie that we're often fed that, you know, the purpose of marriage is happiness.

I am thinking more of like that shallow sense of kind of gratification or comfort or pleasure or something that again is more fleeting. And, you know, it's just kind of meant to give us some sort of a high. Okay. [00:26:00] Um, and, and we certainly would say, you know, that's not the purpose of marriage, but I love that you're refocusing in this, that, you know, there is such a deeper sense of joy, fulfillment, satisfaction.

I don't know what other words you would use, um, that can result from this continual process, like you said, of, you know, suffering. And then growing suffering and growing and it's really analogous to working out. Um, I don't, you know, I hope this analogy is okay for people, but you know, the process of working out of making your body stronger is literally you need to suffer to break, like literally, you know, on the muscular level, your muscles are like, being pulled apart, like destroyed, so to speak.

I'm not a scientist, but this is why it didn't explain to me. And then afterward, the recovery is actually what makes you stronger. And so I think when it comes to marriage, totally, like I know, you know, for us, there's been really difficult seasons already in our marriage. We've been married about six years, you know, Basically it may as long as you guys and um, there's been some difficult trying times, but then at the end of that tunnel, if we work through it and stick with it, which gets to your [00:27:00] point of like being, having that commitment to stick with it, there's something that is much more beautiful at the end of it.

And I think a lot of people call it quits before they get to experience that. I think that's right. I think a lot of people call it quits before they experience the real goodness of marriage. You know, the high, the honeymoon high is so fleeting, but the real good of it is much better than the honeymoon.

And it only comes with a little bit of time. In my experience, I'm looking forward to, I have the grace. My parents have been married for coming up on 40 years now, and I had Thanksgiving dinner with my mom and dad. We hosted this year. They and my siblings all came over for Thanksgiving dinner, and at Thanksgiving dinner, we did the typical thing.

We went around the table and said what we were thankful for. Okay, and we got to my parents, my mom and my dad, who've had difficulties in their marriage of many different sorts. But they looked at one another and they both started bawling their eyes out and just kind of at just out of the blue saying what they were thankful for.

And my dad looking at my mom, this is, this is not exaggerated even a little bit. My dad looking at my mom said, [00:28:00] I can't tell you how happy I am to be married to you. And, you know, in front of all of his children and grandchildren and everything, and my mom looked right back at him and said the same thing.

And then my dad said, I feel like in the last three years of our marriage, we've become more happy than we've ever been before. And if you think about that, like that would mean, so they've been married like 39 years now. That would mean that around marriage, you know, year number 36, they started to descend into this whole nother, they had a happy marriage before that already, but a great marriage pretty much all the way through with some really notable difficulties.

But around year 36, they hit this spot of like a whole new level of depth as if the bottom had fallen out to a level of meaning that they hadn't previously had access to. That's the kind of happiness that marriage can bring you, but it's very different than the kind of happiness that you were rightly shining a light on before.

Wow. No, so beautiful. And I'd love to go deeper a little bit into that because the people listening right now, So often haven't seen that example of what a beautiful, healthy marriage looks like, not a perfect one. And so talk me through a [00:29:00] little bit of that. Like maybe what were some of like the lessons or takeaways that you have witnessing your parents marriage over the years?

Gosh, I look forward someday to speaking with you about this for seven hours. So let me try and say some concise things now. Here are a few things. My dad never stopped pursuing my mom. I don't think he ever did. I think he was always after her. Even though he'd already won her heart, you know, they're sleeping together every night.

They're, they're married. They're got a bunch of kids, whatever, but they were always doing things for one another that were sort of romantic, you know, just going after it. Like I remember there were a few years where my dad's business kind of fell apart. And so money was really tight in the house. And I remember there was this anniversary.

And my mom kind of got us kids together, and the older ones of us knew this, though she didn't say it, that they didn't have money to go out to eat. And so what my mom did is, uh, she had all of us, some [00:30:00] of us young boys, we dressed up in suits. So we had, we had suits and ties on, and we set the, the dinner table just kind of like in a nicer way and put candles out and everything.

And mom made this like really nice dinner for dad. And then by the time he got home, most of the kids were upstairs like watching a movie, but me and one of my brothers, we were downstairs and our job was to kind of like, you know, in a sort of showy way, like bring the food out and put it down there wearing suits for mom and dad.

And so they did stuff like that for one another. Um, In the midst of the difficulty. I mean, I think that story is particularly good because, you know, I think the deepening of married love oftentimes involves a simultaneous mix of bliss and excruciating suffering. And it's the cocktail of those two things that makes for real happiness.

So you've got something particularly bad going on, like you're broke or whatever your thing is, and you, you sprinkle in the midst of that a little bit of good cheap romance, you know, the kind that you can come up with, you know, uh, on a Costco bottle of wine and [00:31:00] about, you know, box of mac and cheese or something like that, you know, like you, you have those two things together.

And I think that makes for something really good, you know, as the years go on. So that's just one thought. you know, that comes to mind. Uh, men, there's so much we've covered and so much I want to cover with you, but I was just curious if there's anything else you would add when we're talking about this problem that, uh, you know, problems that are facing marriages today, uh, specifically when it comes to men, you know, we've already talked a bit about pornography and some of the other things like contraception, but just curious if there's anything you'd add when it comes to the problems men in marriage are facing.

Yeah. So the issues that have faced humanity when it comes to the sexual revolution in particular have had the effect of. Crippling marriages in general, but crippling men in particular. All right. So if you examine particularly the last two generations of men when it comes to interest in marriage and interest in family, there has been a sharp precipitous decline in the number of men who want to be married that far outstrips their feminine counterparts.[00:32:00]

All right, so the number of particularly religious women who find themselves climbing the ladder of their twenties, thirties and forties and completely unable to find a man who's willing to be their partner is very high in this day and age, and I appreciate it. You know, I read a great sociologist on this.

Um, he wrote a book called The Decline of Males. Um, he's got kind of an unfortunate name. His name is Lionel, L I N E L, Tiger. Uh, he's an evolutionary sociologist at Rutgers University. Anyway, Dr. Tiger, who wrote this book, Decline of Males, again, a non religious person himself, said that the chief cause contributing to the decline of men in our society is the advent of contraception.

Because what it, what it effectively did to men was, um, take an already kind of tenuous connection that men felt with their children. I mean, throughout the whole course of human history, it's been more difficult to get men to commit to their children than it is to get women to commit to their children.

I mean, think about it. Women, you know, after conceiving a child, they bear the child [00:33:00] in their room for nine months. They oftentimes then feed the child at their breasts. And so there's a connection that is forged there. Universally for women, that is not the same for men. And so the great kind of task oftentimes of culture is getting men to be more than mere reproducers, but to be husbands and to be fathers.

That is to be committed to their families, right? And the way in which contraception has made sex so readily available, both in contraceptive sex period, but then in all of the things that contraception has brought forth, not least of which is pornography. Has made men relatively less interested in sexuality.

There are a lot of other deeper things at play too. When you think, for example, of, you know, in a society that is marked by largely licentious sexual practices, the ability of a man even to know, you know, if a child is his or not, you know, prior to modern paternity tests, drastically declines. And so that already weak link between a father and a child is gone.

So this one author, for example, says that in the, in the modern culture, in the modern [00:34:00] state. The holy trinity of time gone by, that is the holy trinity of a husband, a wife, and a child has now in the contemporary sexual culture been replaced by a new trinity, which is a mother, a child, and ordinarily a bureaucrat, you know, or a, or a welfare handout or any of the modern day kind of stand ins for the father.

And so. Forge, the organization that I run, leans in a particular way in giving men guidance to become great husbands and fathers, and that emphasis on men is not chauvinism. It's actually recognizing a kind of weakness that men, particularly contemporary men, have. And the need for guidance, you know, I, I think in the midst of that too, when you throw in the fact that a lot of the, the cultural things which traditionally guided young boys to become great men, those things have been replaced by, for example, the idea of toxic masculinity has had the effect of leaving boys pretty lost.

You know, whereas previous cultures gave young men a guide for what it looked [00:35:00] like to walk the path towards authentic masculinity of taking boys to men, that guide has been replaced with a question mark that we've given young boys really just confusion now about what it means to be male, about what it means to be masculine.

And they want answers. If they don't find answers from good, wholesome sources like educational systems or like churches, then young boys will look for answers about masculinity in other places like YouTube or, or God forbid, like the streets, which is why I think, for example, you see like an influx in gangs.

You see an influx in what I take to be some toxic male personalities like Andrew Tate. Because young boys are not getting wholesome masculinity, positive masculinity from the places that previously gave it, they're, they're kind of being forced to look for it in the gutters. And so you have the, the crisis of men, the crisis of masculinity brought about by something which was supposed to make us more free, the sexual revolution, but which indeed.

Introduce a kind of chaos and a new, more sinister kind of slavery. No, I couldn't agree with you more. And especially looking [00:36:00] at boys, like, I think anyone could recognize how much of a problem we're facing there. And what I've seen too, is that, you know, as a boy, like when you're growing up, you know, early teen years, especially, um, you're trying to develop your strength, right?

You're hopefully looking to become this like strong man. And that's even gone amiss in so many ways. Like we're not even looking to develop boys into strong men. Um, or boys might not even see that as some sort of a goal, but of course that is the goal. It's like to develop a strength so that then we can offer, and that's the other side of the coin that I've seen.

And so you're right, if we, you know, don't have someone who's helping us develop that strength, not just the physical strength, but the moral strength, the interior strength, it's becoming more virtuous, all those things, and we don't have a clear outlet, a place to offer our strength, then yeah, it's just going to turn into just disastrous, um, just lead us down disastrous routes.

And it's so interesting to see how You mentioned the streets, uh, it's kind of fascinating to think how gang leaders, uh, you could probably throw in cartel leaders, terrorist leaders, whoever, are often some of the most, like, effective leaders, especially when [00:37:00] it comes to men, because they, they breathe, like, this purpose into their existence, they help them to channel that strength into something, whether it's good or bad, And for men, it's like, yeah, you're speaking my language.

Like I need, I need to do something with my strength. And so, yeah, you hit the nail on the head so well. And I'm sure there's so much more you could say before we move on. I just want to give you a chance to come. Yeah. I think what you said about gang leaders is, is particularly appropriate. Young boys have male raw material across time and place, every society, except for the last couple of generations of Western societies, they've had actual things like initiation rights and now granted some of those initiation rights were bad.

All right, but let's set that aside for a moment across all times and places. There were channels that took that male energy, if you will, and did that just that channeled it into masculinity. All right, we don't have those today, but boys still want to be channeled. You know, no matter how loud the culture preaches to young boys that there's no such thing as masculinity, that's that it's a fiction or whatever it is.

That [00:38:00] doesn't change the fact that boys still want to be men. Whether you're willing to give them an image of masculinity or not, they still want to be men. And so when a gang leader, um, or a YouTube personality or a, some sort of public figure gives them an image of masculinity that they can latch onto, and even more so if they give them a kind of club, if you will, that affirms them in their masculinity, I mean, a literal gang to use your example, then, then they feel masculine all the more.

All right. And I, it's, it's this particular thing, not to, to kind of tout my own products here, if you will, that. That led the organization that I lead, we, we just recently released a course, you can find it on the homepage of our website, it's called Fathers and Sons, and uh, so if you go to myforge. org, M Y F O R G E.

org, you can see this course, and what it is, is it's a six part series that instructs fathers on the healthy sexual formation of their sons. Okay, so what does it look like, for example, in the absence of a father? Of, uh, you know, an initiation right of 1752, you know, time gone by, you know, but [00:39:00] to do the good thing that initiation rights previously did and give your son an image of masculinity that he can aspire towards, right?

What does it look like to talk to your son about sexuality before the world manipulates him? What does it look like to introduce your son into a community of men much better than you? Uh, the community of a gang that will at the same time affirm him in his masculinity so that he doesn't go look for that same affirmation elsewhere.

What does that look like? So my, my organization got together with groups of psychologists around the country to put a curriculum together. We just call it fathers and sons. Um, it's a six part series to help men transform their boys into. great husbands and fathers for the next generation. I love the focus on like, you know, making men strong so that they then can offer their strength to their wives, to their children, to society as a whole.

Because it's so interesting to me looking at like stories, for example, how, you know, often the difference between the hero and the villain is that the hero uses his strength for good. The villain uses his strength for bad. It's kind of a simplistic way of explaining it, but that's the [00:40:00] way that I see it.

Yeah. And so I think it's like, so good if we can, you know, help boys become men and, you know, step into those roles. So I want to hear a little bit more about your organization, if you would, in closing, like what solutions do you guys offer to all of these problems that we have talked about today? In addition to the course that you mentioned?

Yeah. So we're an organization that's fundamentally devoted to the family, but in our efforts to build up the family, we have a strategic emphasis on men. In our first two years of operations, so we're just four months old in our first two years of operations, we're focusing exclusively on men as we continue forward.

We'll also develop materials for women. What we do, we say we champion the good of the family, and then we evangelize by virtue of that flourishing. So we, uh, we do things like develop great resources, uh, facilitate empowering interpersonal mentorship. Um, so as to bring great families into the contemporary world, despite.

The revolutions like we said at the at the start of this episode the industrial [00:41:00] digital sexual revolutions all of which kind of tear at the fabric of the family we aim to reverse that trend okay so we're we're fundamentally an organization that seeks to inspire a movement of families that are fully alive we do a lot of our on the ground stuff virtually all of it at this point in Des Moines Iowa.

So we've got a lot of small groups of husbands and fathers going in Des Moines, future husbands and fathers going here in Des Moines, um, large events, you know, that we put together, uh, soon here we'll start sexual accountability groups, uh, we do mentorship between, we call it intergenerational mentorship, so between husbands and fathers of one generation in their 50s, mentoring men who are in their 20s, We do a lot of stuff like that.

Um, but we do have a growing national platform. So for example, if you go to our website, I think at present we have people doing our first course in over 30 cities. Uh, that is small groups of men, um, who have gotten online, bought our first course, say, Hey, I want to know what it looks like to develop a son who [00:42:00] is flourishing.

in the sexual dimension of his being. And I'd like to, you know, with another group of men, talk about what it looks like to raise that kind of son. So we say, and, and, and this is a lot of this is brought out. I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the crisis of men and masculinity in the church and in the culture.

And one of the things that I became deeply convicted about over the course of writing that dissertation was that the best of men are oftentimes not raised by a single man that is by a single father, if you will. Um, the best of men are raised by groups of men. So one of the best things that you can do to raise a great family, particularly to raise great sons, is to intentionally involve yourself in a group of like minded men who will be a voice for you.

In saying things that your son won't hear from your voice, okay, that he needs to hear from the voice of your friends, right? So, we developed the materials that we developed for the men's small group for that reason. Um, that we, we really don't think that individuals, marriages, or [00:43:00] families are meant to do the family, the marriage, the human flourishing thing on an island.

But are indeed meant to do it in the context of community. And so that's why, why we develop the resources in the way that we do. So hop on the website, my forge. org. Um, if you go to go to courses and content, um, we also have free materials, articles, podcasts, things of that nature as well, but you can also see the courses that we put out there.

Um, particularly our first course that is on the topic of raising sexually healthy sons, we will release two more courses in September. One of those courses is on the domestic church. So what does it mean to pass the faith from one generation to the next? And then finally, a course called Patriarchs, um, which is on the role of, of grandfathers in contemporary society.

Love that. And I, I think it's so, so inspiring. I know we probably don't have a lot of these type of people listening right now, but people who, older men, men who maybe feel like their time is kind of done. You know, they maybe built a business or they, you know, served in the military or did whatever with their life.

And then they reached this kind of like sage stage in masculinity. And they kind of think, well, kind of finished, you know, I'm not as [00:44:00] useful as I used to be, but I love what you're saying, especially on that last course about how no, this is actually the time in your life when you can have the greatest impact where it can be like the most fruitful.

And I just love that. I think that's so inspiring for so many reasons. So, so good. And John, I always love talking with you, man. And. You're always welcome back and we'll have to do another show, but, uh, yeah, just really appreciate you and everything that you're doing and appreciate you coming on the show.

And, uh, with that, I wanted to just give you the final word, like what final encouragement advice would you offer to everyone listening, especially our audience who, you know, comes from broken families, uh, when it comes to this topic of love of marriage of fatherhood and everything we've discussed. Just that Joey, I think you're right on the money and what you're doing and, and the people who are engaging your resources.

I think they're doing exactly the right thing. Um, there's an old Latin saying, and that translates to basically you can't give what you don't have. And I think that. You know, a lot of the work that I do when it comes to building up men, [00:45:00] marriages and families, we don't have a particular eye towards divorce or any of the things that you lean into specifically.

So many of the issues in parenting style can be fixed. By healing your own brokenness so much of what I think what my organization does is encourage people to take their own healing seriously so that that brokenness doesn't just keep going down the generations and so obviously the pain of divorce can wreak havoc.

That is so painful. I mean, obviously you speak quite a bit about that Joey and, um, could not highlight the value of your organization anymore. So for all the listeners, I was not paid to say that, but I, I think that, that this is such critically important work. So thank you for what you're doing. If you like that, if you want more from Dr.

John, I definitely recommend checking out his organization called the forge. Again, you can learn more about them at their website, my [00:46:00] forge. org again, my forge. org, or just click on the link in the show notes. If you want to learn more about natural family planning, the method John kind of mentioned in passing to achieve or avoid a pregnancy, two resources I would recommend from speaker and author Jason Everett.

The first is an audio talk called Green Sex. And if you're an audio person, this is a great way to learn more about this whole thing of natural family planning. If you're more of a reader, you can pick up his book. called pure intimacy. It's actually a booklet. It's a really short read. And so that's pure intimacy.

Um, especially if you're a reader, that's a good one for you. Again, you can get all that by clicking the links in the show notes to get the, the talk green sex or the booklet pure intimacy. Again, just click on the show notes if you want one of those. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include things like a book, video courses, speaking engagements, uh, free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help [00:47:00] you heal, from the trauma you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, you can go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents, divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. I promise you they will be very grateful. Feel free to even take 30 seconds now, if you want to share it with them.

In closing, always remember that you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending. [00:48:00]

Restored 3/8/24 Restored 3/8/24

#117: Children & Parents Deserve Better Than Divorce | Jennifer Friesen

So many divorces happen because one spouse follows their desires at the expense of their vows. That happened in the family of my guest today.

So many divorces happen because one spouse follows their desires at the expense of their vows. That happened in the family of my guest today.

In this episode, we cover:

How her family’s dysfunction led to struggles with gender and sexuality
The beautiful transformation she’s experienced and even seen in her parents
The biggest lie about getting divorced
A new organization that’s fighting for children’s rights

Follow Jenn’s Blog, Do Better Theology

Visit Them Before Us

Visit Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.
Book "Male, Female, Other?"
Series: Healing Sexual Brokenness

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So many divorces happen because one spouse chooses to follow their desires at the expense of their vows. And what follows in the family is often just devastation, both for the abandoned spouse and for the children. And that's what happened in the family of my guest today. And so we discuss all that.

Plus we talk about how we're Her family's dysfunction actually led to her struggling with her gender identity and sexuality. We touch on the beautiful transformation that she's seen in her own life and even the lives of her parents. We also talk about the biggest lie that people are told about getting divorced.

And finally, she shares about a new organization that's fighting for children's rights. Stay with us.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 117. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard a lot of great feedback.

One listener said this, they said, love your podcast. It's been very timely and helpful to me. Another said this, This is an excellent podcast. Highly recommend again. We're so happy that you found it helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota lane fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthier, maybe you've tried workout plans and meal plans that just didn't work for you.

Then listen up, this is for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach. Who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym Dakota builds, customize fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world and a safe.

An approachable environment, but what else makes Dakota different than the many, many fitness coaches out there? I want to mention just three things. One he's done it himself. He walks the walk. He doesn't just talk the talk. He's a very healthy ripped dude, but he's also a good virtuous man too. He's not just focused on making his body better and stronger, but The rest of his life as well.

Second thing, he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And, uh, from that experience and from his experience studying at Franciscan University of Steubenville, as well as the Augustine Institute, he developed this belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, like your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body, he said, we really do need to care for all of it, uh, so that we can become more virtuous and more free.

to love. And finally, I would say that Dakota's mission is not just to help you get strong, but really to help you experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating your body the way it was meant to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and also your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this Dakota Lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results his clients have achieved. Go to Dakota lane fitness. com or just click on the link in the show notes. Again, Dakota lane fitness. com or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Jennifer Friesen. Jen has worked in the nonprofit world since 2010, first with Youth with Special Needs, and then with the organization Them Before Us.

Currently, Jen works as the director of training and the host of the Them Before Us podcast at the organization Them Before Us. Personally, Jen advocates for the church to equip young people with a healthy and biblical view of sexuality, and she blogs at Do Better Theology on matters of sexuality, culture, and religion.

and politics. And if you couldn't tell already, this conversation does go into faith and talks about God a bit. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast knows that this isn't a strictly religious podcast. Wherever you're at, again, I'm happy you're here.

My challenge to you is this. If you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And with that, here's my conversation with Jen.

Jen, it's so good to have you on the show.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

I'm a big fan of what you guys are doing at, uh, them before us. And I know you do more than just that, but I really want to drill into your story and just hear all about it. Uh, starting out, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? I think I was about 17. So probably later than a lot of.

Folks, but I'm, I'm thankful for that in some ways. I mean, we can kind of get into it, but yeah, we're, my siblings were 16 probably. Okay. So there's a three or four of you. There's three of us. Sorry. So I have an older brother, younger sister. Yeah. Okay. That's good to know for context. Cause I know we have people come from different family sizes and yeah, I mean, we see the whole gamut.

Like we see people who are super young when their parents get divorced or kind of like me where I was like and then, um, other people who, you know, It happens later in life, even while they're in college, stuff like that. So yeah, totally, um, totally depends, but, uh, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing what, what happened?

Yeah. So I would say my parents had a medium conflict marriage. It wasn't a high conflict marriage. It wasn't violent. There was an addiction, things like that. I would say. My dad's life was kind of marked with if he wanted to do something, he was going to kind of go ahead and do it. This was his second marriage, which I didn't know at the time.

And so his life was just kind of characterized by, you know, if I see something new in front of me and I want to go that direction, I'm going to do it. So. He reconnected with someone that he had known from the past, you know, one thing led to the other and he decided to leave the marriage, but they had a decent amount of conflict my whole life, so my picture of male and, like, a dad and a mom, male and female, was kind of that, you know, men are just kind of grumpy, irritated, they get to do whatever they want to do, they're in complete control.

Women just have to do what they're told, do whatever to keep the peace. Um, and there wasn't a lot of affection between my parents. There wasn't a lot of connection in general. My mom was, was really great about taking the three of us kids out on adventures on the weekend or. Doing, she would take us to plays or museums, like find ways to do those things for free or, or cheap to give us a lot of cultural experiences.

And it just adventures around town. I just don't remember my dad being a part of any of that. And it was like, we were all relieved at some level if he wasn't around. But he was also the primary caregiver because he was a truck driver, so he was only gone a few days a week. My mom worked outside the home and then would homeschool us, like, in the evenings.

But so my primary caregiver is the one that I perceive as being highly irritable, doesn't really want us around, kind of aggressive toward us, and my The person I want most in my life is the person who's out of the home. I had a lot of anxiety, like, she's not going to come home. I, I thought, I think as a kid, I thought it was going to be like a car accident or a something like that.

I think as an adult, I can look back on that and say some moms just don't come home. You know, like some dads, it's too difficult. The marriage is too hard. Raising kids is too hard. And they just don't come home. Abandon their family. I think I was really scared. She would walk off and not come back to the situation.

So I had a lot of anxiety. It's been healing as an adult to think back and be like, wow, my mom always came back home and re entered into kind of a difficult situation. But, so that was kind of the dynamic of our, my parents marriage. And then, yeah, so they announced at a family dinner that my dad, because of this reconnection with this, old flame in a sense, um, was deciding to leave the family.

And so my mom made it clear she was willing to, wanted to work on it, figure it out. And he was not so. Okay. Thanks for sharing. And yeah, I'm so sorry for what you went through and it sounds like you were really attuned to kind of what was going on in the home. I know some people that kind of have an idea that something's off, but they don't really know the details cause he has the parents, you know, maybe keep it under wraps or whatever, but it sounds like you were, um, um, Kind of in tune with what was going on.

And, um, when did you find out? I'm curious about the second marriage. Was that something that came later in life or when, how old were you when you found that out? We, it was when my dad's dad was dying. So passing away or he had passed away, but we were all over in that other state and looking through different things at the house.

And so I was probably 13 or 13. So this was a few years before, and he showed us a picture of his, I didn't even recognize him, but it was with my mom, she was also there, and she showed, they showed a picture, and they're like, oh, this is your dad, and it's a wedding picture. And I was like, but that's not mom.

And my first question was like, is my older brother actually ours? But I said it in sort of a hopeful way, because he and I never got along, like my older brother and I always were at odds. So, our first, that was my first recollection that, oh, he'd been married before. I don't remember feeling strongly about it.

They didn't say what had happened. He had done the same thing, in essence, to his first wife. They didn't have any children. So, I didn't get any more details, but it was this very fascinating realization. So, your parents aren't, they're much more than you know them to be, you know. Oh, I hear you. And, uh, that makes sense.

I guess at this point in life, I'm curious, kind of drilling into this whole second marriage thing, um, have your feelings changed over time? Has that been kind of an impactful thing, or maybe not so much? So now my dad's been married and divorced three times, because he married the third woman, basically.

As an adult, I can look back and I see my parents with both More clarity and more grace clarity for things that were negative grace for things that were well grace for things that were negative as well But you know I do see my parents as all people are Dealing with whatever the tools they have in their toolbox from their parents marriage from that from how they were raised from their faith Background, whatever So, you know, someone who's been married and divorced three times, he's looking for something.

He wants something, whether it's thinking the next connection will be better than the one you already have at some level, or just being easily turned, your head being sort of easily turned to temptation, sexual temptation, things like that, whatever those things were. I think for sure it's, it's very impactful.

Um, my mom being the marriage that had children. It's kind of a convoluted story, but there was a, a different woman. There was an abortion. So, so I have like a half sibling that is that passed away, but we're the only children, you know, so that my dad has. So that's an interesting dynamic. So we sort of feel like you're the primary marriage and they were married for like 25 years.

So his longest marriage. And so there's so much investment and so much that I would say in my head, this was very worth keeping and fighting for. He only realizes this in hindsight. He, I would say if he could go back in time, he would a hundred percent change his behavior or have wanted to stay. I think that's one of his biggest regrets in life.

And I want to say too at the onset, I feel like I have a good relationship with my dad. And, um, I'm a Christian and our family, we were raised Christian. That's very important to us. I would say he really does demonstrate. Now more of, you know, what Christians call like fruit of, of someone who is living a Christian life.

It's kind of slow. It's kind of here and there, but it is kind of neat to say I see more of that now than I think I ever saw growing up. So I'm really thankful for that. So I feel like I'm kind of, it's kind of nice to be able to talk about my dad as sort of a past self. And, and, but to say it in the sense of I have forgiveness for him and I think he is trying to live in a way that's more faithful now, even with those mistakes in the past.

Yeah, no, I hear you and the grace and the transformation. Those are two words that come to mind when you share all that I love that you gave your parents grace because I think that's super important I think there is a temptation to fall into being very bitter Very angry holding on to unforgiveness when it comes to you know mistakes that our parents made and so it is helpful to see that Well, they're human and you can love them through that.

And at the same time, as I know you'd say, we can still say, well, the ways in which they hurt me or they neglected me, like that was wrong. That shouldn't have happened. But at the same time, like, no, I love my mom. I love my dad. And, uh, yeah, I wouldn't trade them for anything. Honestly, I wish things were different, but I love them.

And it's cool as well to see the transformation of my parents lives as well. And so that that's beautiful to hear. And I think that's hopeful too, because a lot of times what I've noticed in the young people that we work with is we worry a lot about our parents. Um, yeah. almost like disproportionately.

It's, it's some people from the outside looking in, they kind of see it as this odd thing. It's like, well, you have all these like wounds and problems associated with your family and your parents. Um, yet at the same time, you have this like deep concern and love for them. No, I'm not saying everyone feels this way, but I I've noticed that.

And so, um, we, we want, we want well for them. We want them to, even if there is some hurt, even if there is some unforgiveness, ultimately, I think we, we, we do want the best for them. Um, have you noticed that as well? And maybe people, you know, who come from broken families? Yeah, it does seem to reverse the parent child dynamic in some ways.

A lot of times, it seems like then the parent will choose one of the kids to start confiding in more. I don't think, I think my mom was pretty good about that, not doing that to us. We had a faithful church community that we were always a part of, even when my dad chose to leave. So I think she had people she could turn to that were appropriate to confide in and to share really hard things with.

Um, I've noticed like my dad doesn't have a ton of relationships, not super involved in church. And so it's. It's almost like he tries to talk to me like that in some ways, which is not my favorite thing. It's not, it's not like the role any kid wants to be in. And maybe that's harder if you're older, maybe because you're more the appropriate age where typically You're raised by your parents, and then you become an adult, and it can, it, it changes a little bit into more of a peer relationship.

You have more experiences, now you know what it's like to pay taxes, and you know, all the things your parents might have joked with you of, you know, when you pay taxes, then you can do this or that. It's like, well now I pay taxes, and I drive, and I know how to do all these things. And so it comes more of a like, a little bit more of a peer thing.

But I think that gets either accelerated or jolted in some weird way when there's a divorce because I don't even know how to explain why. I think my parents were pretty good about that though. Um, my, my mom did a good job of encouraging us to go stay connected to my dad. But it wasn't like, tell me everything your dad's doing.

I can't believe your dad did this or that. You know, she was not. Using us as an outlet for pain or her thoughts about him. And he wasn't doing that in reverse. So I am thankful they were both acting, remaining the parents in that situation, even though you feel a tension. And one of our parents was always alone for one of the holidays until my mom got remarried.

So that's very, my younger sister, very, it feels very stressed by that. Well, if we go here for this part of the holiday, this parent's going to be alone. But it's just hard. You feel really sad and bad for them. And some of it's like, this is the natural consequence. Even when we've forgiven each other and we get along great, we're not spending every holiday all together.

That's a consequence of what? Yeah. No. And I, I, every holiday I feel that like pit in my stomach when it comes to like, well, dad's alone now or mom's on this one and it's not an easy thing to go through. I agree. So yeah, no, I think, um, totally makes sense what you're saying about the, uh, I know psychologists call it like triangulation or, um, some people call it like spousification more like that.

Yeah. I think the way I've heard it explained and the way I try to talk about it is, you know, Mom and dad, like they have very real, like emotional needs and they're going through difficult things and they need someone there to confide in and all those things. And so the children often like, we're just there and we want to, we love them, we want to help them.

And so they end up, you know, talking to us, which, like you said, is just not the appropriate thing. Even I would argue as adults, like they need other people in their life who they can talk to the, uh, talk about with those things. So it didn't totally relate there, but, um. Another thing I just wanted to point to was like your mom's example, you know, even though things were imperfect, even though there was a, there was tension, it was a really difficult family marriage situation to live through.

There was something that stuck with you, like you said, of her example of like, showing up, you know, coming back, you know, hopefully working on it and things like that. And I think that, um, The narrative in our culture right now especially is to, yeah, just kind of stay married and be miserable in those situations or get divorced and be happy.

And I think that middle ground of, um, the third option of, you know, you could work on your marriage and heal it and it can be better. I know in every case that doesn't happen. Um, but even if not, you know, absent abuse and extreme things like that, um, It is such a beautiful thing to like stick at it, to keep trying.

'cause so often what we've seen is, and that, I know there's research on this too, that if you stay at it, you know, and you get the help that you need, your marriage can like transform. Mm-Hmm it can become better. Like, it's not just like this downhill slope. Right? Yeah. We definitely would disagree that there's only those two binary options.

You know, stay and be miserable. Leave and be happy. If those things are even completely true, because leaving the marriage, I think there's some stats to say, you know, people might feel an immediate sense of pleasure or it's better now. But like, for example, my dad's third marriage, the one he left my mom for, it lasted two years, which is about as long as, you know, The infatuation kind of new stage can last, you know, according to some people.

So I feel like I've seen this or heard this anecdotally quite a bit is people will leave to start the new thing. Well, a lot of those problems just come with you, but now you're leaving a trail of brokenness behind you, particularly for kids who a lot, you know, when we post, so I've done before us, when we post different.

Articles or quotes about divorce will inevitably get some comments that say my parents got divorced and I'm happier now. Maybe because they're indicating there was a high conflict marriage. My parents fought all the time so now I'm happier. Or they, they don't like one of those parents for their behaviors.

Addictive behaviors or abusive or whatever. And even if that is completely true, that's an outlier. And you could be happier that your parents in a high conflict marriage aren't there fighting all the time. But I always try to present the idea, what if your parents had done the hard work of Going to get counseling, going to get sober, separating for a time, if there's a safety issue or something, separating to make sure there's safety, and that parent getting the help they need, and then coming back and being healthy and happy.

Would that not have been better than your parents getting divorced? Can we at least say, you know, there's a ideal, and adults need to do a bunch of hard things. To, to fix a marriage that's breaking or broken, but we jump, I guess our culture jumps quickly to there's discomfort. This is really hard and it would be better for me.

Don't my kids want to see me happy? And then thinking that's a good excuse to bail on the marriage. And so I have some close people who really walked through some of that considering are we going to separate? Or not, you know, cause like we can't do it anymore. And, um, but the children was the biggest consideration, understanding what that would do to their kids was their biggest consideration to kind of stick it out and really try to find help and support.

And I'm so thankful that in this instance of someone I'm close to, there's been some positive moves. So I just appreciate, I'm like, wow, that person sticking it out. And again, people of faith praying and being hopeful and seeking help has helped their marriage now is going kind of on that upward trajectory versus just leaving.

Wow. Yeah. No, I love that. And you're right. It is presented as like this easy option that will lead to happiness, which isn't true. It's, it's really not, I guess it depends on how you define happiness. If it's a lack of, uh, you know, discomfort, then that's a really dangerous road to go down. Cause I don't think you can do anything meaningful and Have a satisfying life if you're trying to just avoid discomfort.

So yeah, um, man, so much. I want to comment on, but I love the question you asked. And it's so funny. We asked that exact same question as like, would you prefer your parents to have like, wouldn't it have been better if they just worked through things and healed the marriage? And I think for a lot of people that aren't anything, that's great.

possible. Um, but it is like, I've seen it as well. And there's so many stories that I'm aware of, of people who've, who've done even though if I, even if I don't know them personally, so really good stuff there. Yeah. There's some other things I wanted to go back to as well. Like the situation that you were describing in your family, again, like your mom's heroic example, working through things, your dad's kind of tendency to kind of go where his desires led.

And I think that, It hits at the core of what you guys do at Them Before Us of like elevating these adult, adult desires over the rights of children. And so since we're at this point in the conversation, I'm curious if you, um, yeah, I'm curious to hear maybe a little bit more about Them Before Us. I knew I was going to wait for till later, but I think that's so relevant right now with what we're talking about.

So yeah, what is the work that you guys do? And then we'll transition back into your story. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Them Before Us is a nonprofit, international nonprofit. We have a lot of connections all over the world. that wants to reframe all these conversations, all these controversial topics, marriage, family, third party reproduction, which includes things like sperm donation, egg donation, surrogacy, IVF.

We want to frame everything from the perspective of the rights of the child. So, for example, when we want to argue a public policy issue about should surrogacy be legal or not, we want Instead of us arguing along typical, maybe in the United States, um, you know, blue versus red politics or this is about religious freedom or this is about my religion says you shouldn't do it.

We say, let's consider the rights of the child if someone is using a surrogate. Okay, where did the embryo come from? Was it a sperm donor, egg donor? Well, that's a violation of a child's rights. Because if you're being, you know, Quote donated from sperm or egg. There's a good chance. You're never gonna know your mom or dad Creating motherless or fatherless children is a violation of that child's rights We have the right to know the two people we came from that's the best way for a child to thrive is not only to know The mother and father we came from, but be raised by them, married in the same home.

We know that's ideal for children up until two seconds ago, when it became culturally advantageous to not do that, you know, since culture decided, Hey, you know, we're kind of going to say whatever adults want to do is great. And now here's the science that proves what we want it to say. Well, we had decades of social science before that.

That said, fatherlessness is a big deal. It's not ideal if children need adoption. That means you lost something. You know, so anyway, any topic then, so if we talk about divorce, if we talk about what should, how should marriage be defined, we are trying to train people to ask that question first. Does this impact the rights of a child?

And that helps us frame our answers. And we've found a lot of success because it's really helping us stay away from religious disagreements. It's helping us a little bit, stay out of political disagreements, though, unfortunately, really only one side of the political spectrum in the United States. Is even open to conversations like this, which is the more conservative side, but it's, it's been very helpful because we're really trying to like, dig down to these most basic ideas, natural rights, biology.

This should inform our public policy and our law. And it's been very helpful because it really is, is undercutting a lot of the arguments about. You're a bigot or this is just about religion because we're saying, no, it's not. I'm just talking about the biology that this child has a mom and a dad and has rights.

Beautiful. I love that. And I know you guys do, um, work on public policy. You do a lot of different interviews and things like that. What else specifically do you guys offer? We're just finishing right now a small group curriculum for churches. So if you have a church community group, that kind of thing, we're going to have a workbook and seven sessions that people can walk through.

It'll go through each of our chapters. In our book, we'll talk about surrogacy. Here's what the data says. Here's the them before us argument, and then we'll connect it to scripture and the Christian ethic. So that's really exciting. We have a documentary that's being worked on. If you saw the, this is a woman or what is a woman documentary, um, it'll be similar in style, just in the sense of we're trying to boil it down again.

What is a child? Is it, is it a, just, it has rights. It's kind of a thing that can become a person one day and it'll eventually have rights when we say so. Or is it a human being with unique value and that has rights. And so we're going to have a lot of different interviews with experts and talk about what is a child.

We are developing a human resources package or basically a way to go to. an organization and say, here's how you should frame a child friendly human rights package. Or sorry, healthcare. What is HR stand for? Human resources package. Sorry, not human rights. HR. Nice. That's good. That's like a, um, It's kind of like both, right?

But so for example, these big companies are giving you money to go get an abortion out of state. We would say to a company, do not offer that. Offer an adoption credit. You know, offer, offer counsel. Offer if someone has an unexpected pregnancy. Offer, um, Different things they can do to, to write off the need for diapers or, you know, things that if they need marriage counseling, you should offer a credit for marriage counseling to your employees.

And I don't even know all the details of what's inside there because I'm not within the HR sphere, but it's basically the idea to present companies. Here's these alternatives. We're not helping people do. IVF and surrogacy and, and redefining infertility just to mean whoever, whenever. Because, you know, California has a bill that's redefining it.

So I'm a single woman under California's new bill. I can be considered infertile and get state benefits to go get a sperm donor, et cetera. So, or, you know, same sex couples can be redefined to be infertile. And this project would help companies not use those kinds of benefits that violate the rights of children, but frame benefits that are helping promote family marriages, And if you are truly infertile and cannot have children, here's the ways that you can go about helping a child, adopting, and things like that.

So good. Thanks for kind of breaking that down. And I know some people listening right now might feel like an objection to some of that. And I would just offer two things. One, Don't children deserve to be protected? Don't children deserve to be protected? I think so. And, um, if they do, like how so? And I think that's where the second question comes in of like, um, if you disagree with this stuff, why don't you hear them out?

Hear out them before us, listen to their podcast, check out their book, their resources and see, you might agree with, you know, 80 to 90 percent of it. Um, and then on those maybe 10 to 20 percent you don't agree, um, look into it. Like, I think it's intellectually honest to. Go into those areas where there is some disagreement, because I know these are hot topics.

I want to acknowledge that from the outset. And, uh, so, but I appreciate you going through all that and kind of transitioning from there back into your story, this whole theme of adults putting like their desires, their quote unquote, happiness over the rights of children, um, is something that happens all the time in various areas.

But of course, in this conversation, we're focusing on the area of like divorce and, you know, separation and broken families. Bye. One thing that, um, you made me think of before too, was, uh, John Eldridge, the author, he, um, talks about this, uh, phenomenon. I was just thinking of your dad's kind of tendency towards, you know, these flings and stuff.

Um, this phenomenon John Eldridge talks about of the woman with the golden hair, where, you know, you have someone, he just explained this experience where he would see these like blonde haired women, and he would feel like this pull on his heart of like, Oh, they're going to solve all my problems. They're going to take away all my pain.

They're going to bring me the, you know, the happiness that I deeply long for. Um, and he just goes into saying how it can be such a lie. And we're, I think so many of us, even if we're not at that level of like, Hey, I'm just going to leave my family and go run off for this woman. Um, we experienced that whether male or female, we experienced this like, Oh gosh, I think this thing will, will offer me all the happiness that I long for.

And you touched on this before. Well, but, um, I, that image has always. With Eldridge. And on that note, I'd love to hear if you have anything to add to that, but I also want to hear, um, just, yeah. How else the breakdown of your parents, marriage, your family, their ultimate divorce affected you. Yeah, I think.

Actually, that kind of idea, so seeking after, looking for something that will satisfy you, is ultimately why I was able to have so much forgiveness for my dad. So, part of growing up for me, I think a lot to do with the dynamic I saw of male and female. I had a lot of gender Confusion. I wouldn't say dysphoria because it wasn't like a diagnosable thing.

I just thought, I was a Christian as long as I could remember, as early as I could remember, but I had a thought, God made me wrong. Like there's a switch somewhere up in heaven, on off, girl boy, whoops, he did the wrong one. I'm in a girl's body for some reason. I just think, in a child's mind, You feel discomfort, or you feel a sense of here's the interests I like, or I prefer to wear this kind of clothing, I like to wear pants versus dresses, and still do, but you start to, you see these things very, it's very binary, well, my brother likes doing these things, and wears these kind of clothes I prefer, and he's a boy, and my sister wears these kind of, she was a lot more girly, and like dolls and all this stuff, And I prefer this way.

So I must have been made wrong and was probably supposed to be a boy. Well, what am I going to do with that? Nothing. I could really articulate as a kid. I think because of my parents, I mean, my mom's working 40 hours a week and homeschooling, and I'm sure my parents are stressed about money and they're figuring stuff out.

You think all of these things as an adult looking back, right? Adults. I have so many things there trying to figure out why my kid is throwing a fit because she doesn't want to wear the dress or the church shoes. I don't think was a thing in there that like, this is a deeper thing we should talk to her about.

There just wasn't a lot of those tools or those conversations that I know of. In the eighties and nineties, you know, versus now, I think there's a lot of pretty good resources for Christian parents or more conservative parents. If your kids are saying or experiencing some of these gender things, there's a little more tools to deal with.

I don't think my parents really had those tools or the time to, to, to know, to like go into it anyway. So I experienced some of that. I experienced. Felt same sex attraction. So toward my peers again, my perception of male is scary and control and You know kind of I want to avoid and then my perception of women makes sense to me What's that which makes sense to me like if that was all you knew about men Like why would you want to go that route right and my perception of women is I love my mom and I do not get enough time with her and I'm terrified she's going to leave or something's going to happen to her.

So a longing mother hunger. And so it kind of makes sense as you go through and then feeling the gender dysphoria kind of thing. Then you go through puberty and of course those broken misaligned, whatever thoughts start becoming sexualized. Right? So, okay. So that's stuff I'm dealing with without really talking to anyone in the nineties or early two thousands.

And then. Fast forward and I won't get too detailed, but I, I had a relationship with a woman that really just started out as an unhealthy friendship and then kind of progresses, but this is why I had so much grace for my dad. I did not wake up one day and think, you know what I'm going to do? Get into this relationship that's like secret, and I feel shame, and it's, it's It's not healthy in any way.

It's not healthy even if you thought being two women in a relationship was great. It still wasn't healthy for a lot of other reasons that a lot of relationships wouldn't be healthy. I didn't wake up one day and think I'm gonna wreck my life and do all this stuff, you know? It was a million little decisions.

Like you're saying that, that the golden hair, the appeal of something, I want this kind of love. I want feminine love and affection. And instead of going about it in appropriate ways and seeking appropriate mentorship and love and care, I'm going to go about it in a illegitimate way, I would say from the Christian perspective.

And when I sort of woke up to that and it's like, well, I don't want to be doing this anymore, but how do I get out of it? You know? And then it was a very difficult. hurtful process of getting out of that, confessing, kind of living openly with people. I was able to look back at my dad and say, he didn't wake up and think I'm going to wreck my 25 year marriage, ruin my kids lives, abandon everything I've, you know, we've done.

I'm, it was, it was decisions he made over time, little decisions. the golden haired person you turn your head and you start versus catching it in that moment and like in the christian perspective i've been hearing this a lot more and thinking about it like mortifying your sin the idea of like catching thoughts errant thoughts and different things that are not truthful um crucifying those thoughts and and repenting of and whatever before they get to these further stages, right?

Because by the time you're already, you've already done the thing, you're already in the relationship, and then you wake up, well now there's this trail, yeah, behind you of ruin. And that's why God, I think, tells us, you know, guard your heart, guard your mind, guard your thoughts, fill it up with the good things, fill it up with the truth, because we really are likely to just continue along down the path we're not supposed to go without even recognizing it, it feels like.

So my own sin and brokenness. And being, and doing what I did not want to do, a relationship that I should not have been in, gave me a lot of grace for my dad. And realizing, yeah, we get here because a million little mistakes and lack of repentance were sin. Not, you know, you wake up and I'm going to ruin everything today.

Yeah. Yeah. No one dreams of that. No one's like, okay, I'm going to, you know, build this marriage and this family, have kids. And then I'm like, you said, gonna leave it all. That's my dream. That's what I want in life. It's like, no, no one dreams of that. So no, it's really well put. And Yeah, I, um, no, your struggles make sense to me.

It makes sense that it led there. It makes sense that, um, yeah, everything, everything that you said. And I love the point about like mortification you said, um, which is if anyone's not familiar, it's like a Latin word, which means like basically to die to yourself, um, like to kill things, like you said, and, um, it's so powerful.

Like it leads to self mastery. It leads to you being more in control of yourself, which is. One of the steps of leading like a really meaningful life, uh, and, and even a really joyful, like happy life too. And so, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's been super helpful for me as well. Thank you for sharing so openly and thank you for talking through that.

And one, two resources I want to mention, and if anyone isn't, you know, maybe resonating with you and wants to know like, Oh man, I need some help in this area of like maybe gender dysphoria, um, or, you know, same sex attraction, whatever it might be, uh, Jason Everett is one of my mentors. He runs, um, An organization and he has a great book called male, female, other, um, and that's like basically a Christian guide on, um, wrestling with all these gender issues.

So it goes into a lot of the claims of gender theory and just kind of talks to those logically. And then it also, um, just has a lot of compassion and some guidance for people who do struggle with gender dysphoria. And then he has some other resources on his website, which we'll link to and the show notes, uh, related to, you know, navigating same sex attraction and things like that.

And then the other thing I was going to mention is. When it comes to the sexual, um, you know, temptations and things like that, like struggling with unwanted sexual behavior, we did a whole series on this topic called healing sexual brokenness. And so we'll link to that in the show notes, but I think if you go to our website, restored ministry.

com slash, um, I think it's sexual brokenness. We'll, we'll put this in the show notes, then you'll see all the episodes. We did a whole series with these awesome experts and different resources that will help you navigate through those. So just want to make sure you guys have all the help that you, you deserve.

Um, but Jen, I'm just curious, kind of, if there's anything else you wanted to add about different struggles you had that stemmed from the breakdown of your family before we transition into kind of the hopeful part of your story. Oh yeah. Yeah. I would just say. Yeah. I agree. We just need, that's why I think I'm passionate about wanting the church to have more of these resources, and again, I think you mentioned a bunch of great ones, but there's been so many things written in even the last five years.

years resources that didn't exist. Or I didn't, granted we didn't have the same access to the internet and ability to find, you know, youtube videos and stuff. We're just starting out when I was more of a preteen, so it wasn't that I could go Google different things, but I think parents being the first ones to talk to their children, about, Sexuality and what does it mean to be male?

And what does it mean to be female? And correcting a lot of those childish thoughts that we think, well, I like wearing pants, so God must've made me a girl on accident. It's like, no. And what's cool is I feel. I'm in my mid thirties now. I feel the most me I've ever felt the most comfortable in, in my body and who I am as a woman now.

So I would not go back to being 13 for anything in the world because, you know, every, but everyone experiences those changes during puberty and those feelings and the hormones and all these things. Right. And whatever the family and friend dynamics are, everyone is experiencing those. It's just that when you have.

confusion about gender and then sexuality i think it then can just get really mixed up where if someone is able to say someone a feeling comfortable to share it at all it feels dark and shameful when at least at the very very beginning a little kid thinking oh god made me a girl on accident it's not like sinful thinking it's just childish thinking because we don't understand who god is and that he doesn't make a mistake you're a male or female for good you Righteous reason both are made in God's image from the Christian perspective, but an adult to say, Oh, no, that's, that's not true.

You can like this interest, that interest, you can dress, you can dress in this color, that color, but God made you a girl on purpose. It's a good thing. Here's all the reasons that's so good. He made your brother a boy on purpose. Here's all the reasons that's so good. We need both. And then continually help correct thinking that is off.

In a way that's very cheerful, it's not scary, it's not shameful, but little kids need to understand. Oh, okay, yeah, I thought this weird thing about God, but my mom, or dad, told me. But God's actually like this. So now I know that's not true. God made me a girl on purpose. It's okay if I like playing sports.

And I, we don't, we, some of us don't have that from when we're little, we have it now, or at some level, you're responsible for doing it for yourself now, because we're an adult, like Paul in the Bible says, When I was a child, I thought and reasoned like a child, but now you're an adult. So you need to think and reason like an adult, right?

So I don't even know if that answers the question. No, no, no. So good. And that's super helpful. And one of the things you made me think of too, that I learned from Jason Everett, who wrote that book, Male, Female, Other, as he says that, uh, in our culture, we, Claim that a woman, for example, is like someone with a female personality and any body when the opposite is actually true.

It's a woman is someone with a female body and any personality, which can run the gamut, right? You know, people who are maybe a little bit more like traditional masculine traits or more, more of a leader, more like, you know, physically fit, like things like that, that you'd normally associate with a man.

Like a woman can totally, you know. Have those characteristics, have those qualities and still be like fully woman, fully feminine. And so, yeah, it's, uh, it's, there's so much confusion out there. So I'm glad you're shedding light. The work you guys are doing is awesome. And so glad we can, you know, give people some resources as well.

But I'm curious, um, just honing in a little bit more in relationships, whether it's dating relationships or friendships, how did, um, your, Yeah. Everything that happened in your family impact those. Uh, I, I was remembering this this morning. My mom made counseling available to us, like offered to pay for it and help us get there and things like that.

When, when the divorce happened, I think I was the only one who did it. My brother and sister just processed it in different ways. But so I went to counseling I personally have really benefited from Christian counseling. It was also something I could do for free at the college I went to, you know, cause there's like students, psychology students that are counseling you.

And, but I think beyond that, so counseling was very helpful. I think just to process and, and talk things out. And just like I said to you, okay, if my dad, if my experience, my dad this way and my mom this way, and then I feel these things. A counselor for me was the person who said that makes sense, which I had never sort of drawn lines and thought, I'm not crazy, I'm not some psycho broken person that feels this way, it would make sense that someone experiencing some of these things might feel a certain way, and Christian counseling doesn't leave you at all.

Okay, it makes sense that you feel that way, because Christian counseling, and especially myself, because I am a Christian, still wanted to know, well, is the way I feel and want to act righteous, unrighteous, healthy, or not healthy? And then I think that's what the Christian ethic helps you do. Okay, well, it makes sense that you feel this way, but then we need healing, repentance, and healing.

New patterns of thinking, etc. So we can move from unhealthy to healthy, right? It's not just saying, oh, you feel that way. Great. That's who you are. So that's very helpful. And then I'm so thankful not only for just women who mentored me. I've had a number of women, like women have been my bosses in the jobs I've worked at.

I've done Christian and non profit work for most of my career, but I've had mentors, close friends, people I really did feel I could share deep things with and you feel like it's very dark and shameful until you share them out loud to other people who feel Experience something similar or they can really understand how you feel and offer you prayer and biblical wisdom and just it's kind of the light thing.

Right? So things I feel dark and shameful and I don't tell anyone can fester and grow and it's like, you know, cancer inside of you versus when you are able to share things and shine light into dark places. You start feeling like you're not alone. You start feeling like you're not out of control. And so I'm really thankful for that.

I'm also really thankful for a lot of great marriages I've seen. So like one of my mentors, um, in a job I worked previously, her and her husband, We're just fun to be around. They weren't not traditional in the sense of her sort of deferring to his leadership on something or saying, Okay, well, I'm gonna go check with him to see about this or that scheduling or whatever.

Okay, there was definitely a notion that they were checking in on each other and they were going to be in agreement about something. It wasn't It wasn't like she was just doing whatever she wanted and he would go along with it, but it also wasn't what I perceived growing up, where they, the guy just gets to decide whatever he wants, doesn't care what the woman has to say at all.

I started being around people, men and women who are married, and having a very different picture of marriage than what I grew up with, a very positive picture, like genuine love, affection, caring for each other, serving each other. You know, men who are after a party where everybody's hanging out at the house where the bunch of the guys are the ones all doing the dishes and laughing and having fun and women are just hanging out on the couch and chatting, not even a thing where it's like talked about or the woman saying, can you please do the dishes?

That the husband deciding to do it and the guy friends just standing up and doing it. Things like that, that really start shaping your view of marriage away from just what you experienced growing up. I think is so important and I'm really thankful for. Beautiful. Yeah, so mentorship, close friends, and obviously a lot of my friends got married as well.

So then you're with your good friend. And their husband and their kids. And so that's a fun, cool picture too. You see the good and the bad you, I had one counselor that said, just because someone's marriage might be bad or having a hard time, doesn't mean the institution of marriage is bad. And I thought that was really good because yeah, everyone has difficulties or difficult seasons, but I still can honor and, you know, I still advocate for this institution as a good institution.

God honoring good for society kind of thing, even though I'm not married. So no, so good. Thanks for sharing all that. And everything you said sounds super helpful. And I've found so many of those things helpful in my own life. And I've heard that, uh, you know, from a lot of people who've who've been down through the experiences that you and I have been through.

I am curious when it comes to, yeah, just the transformation you experienced, you explained a little bit about this, but you know, you were kind of in this dark rough spot and now you're in a different spot. Uh, contrast that a little bit for us. I know your life isn't maybe perfect now, not no one's is, but, um, how is it different now than it was before?

How is it better? Yeah, I think growing up and, and feeling these feelings of gender stuff, same sex attraction, and not feeling like I had any place to go with it other than keeping it inside my mind. And I think a lot of building up, well, if I could just have this relationship with a woman, Then I probably would feel happy or maybe that is what I'm supposed to be doing or made for or whatever.

While my Christian ethic did, I would not say that or think that was true. In essence, I was wondering if that was true in my mind. Because it's all just kind of dark and locked up in there, which I think gave ground, you know, fertile ground for sin and desire, et cetera, to grow into a relationship. Then I find myself in with that woman that was not healthy and not good.

Okay, so all that getting Smashed apart and then confessing things to a bunch of people. Okay. So you thought this was just this friendship. Here's actually what was going on Here's all these ways I lied to you and was not being truthful. Here's all these things I think and feel I think it took a lot of the power away from it to be honest I definitely have never felt like it's this big thing.

It's like who I am I've never used any of the LGBT ways to like label myself. Like none of that has been meaningful to me. Rosaria Butterfield, if any of your listeners have heard of her or want to look her up, has been very influential in my thinking around sexuality, really great, uh, thinker and, uh, Author, and it's just been helpful because it, it makes it not as big of a thing.

Um, but at the same time, there is a sense of having to be on guard. Like you said, it's the, the golden hair lady. I think the, the problem is God really has to help heal the mother and the father wounds. For anybody, whatever combination that is, whatever it leads you to. Um, or we're going to get caught in those same patterns over and over again.

So for me now, it just means I'm a lot more upfront with people. And there's definitely a handful of people that know everything about me, where I can call them on the phone and say, can you pray for me? I feel this or I'm thinking this and that's really helpful, but and really necessary. Um, yeah, yeah, because if you don't have people that know you or check in on you, like I've had to give people permission to ask, will you ask me this question?

Will you ask me this question? Cause otherwise I don't want to answer that question. And most people won't think to ask it or it's uncomfortable to ask it because it feels nosy or like you're going to try to judge you or think you're doing something wrong. So there's been trusted people. I've said, here's all these ways I want you to check in on me.

And then. I, I blogged about some of these things and processed a lot at Do Better Theology. So it was interesting, it was kind of in response to this other group that was attacking my former business, my former non profit, because they were saying, this Christian business doesn't like LGBT people, won't let them be volunteers, won't let them be on staff, and they just did.

A few hundred posts condemning my, where I used to work. And so when I no longer worked there, I was like, okay, well, I'm going to respond to all these accusations, particularly about the work. But then I started sharing my own, you know, this is how I feel. This was my experience when I worked there. Here's the people I got to talk to.

And it's very powerful in a sense, because in our culture, your lived experience. Or whatever is very powerful. Like that's a powerful weapon culturally and even things working within them before us, we will get people who are very irritated with us because. Well, you're, you have no compassion for people who are infertile, you know, if you're saying there's ethical questions about these different things.

And it's like, I can respond and say, I don't know if I'm going to have children. It's different because I'm not married and trying and not able to have children. I haven't had miscarriages. I understand those things would be very painful and hard, but you're talking to someone who also doesn't know if she'll ever be able to have children.

So there is a different level, I think, of being able to talk to people because a lot of the maybe more manipulative tools. Are not there when it comes to arguing about sexuality and things like that. Yeah, i'm trembling now, but yeah, so I just feel like god has done a lot in this is good building up What does it mean to be a woman a typical woman a book by abigail dodds?

Highly recommend if anybody Listening has has felt any of these things particularly about what does it mean to be a woman? And it's like your point. She's you know, people will say well, how how am I a woman and a business owner? How am I a woman and a mechanic like what would what should I do? And she's like, you just are.

If you're a woman, that's how a woman fixes cars. It doesn't matter if you're, you know, I'm really aggressive as a businesswoman, or I'm really meek as a businesswoman, so should I act more like a man or more like a woman? She's like, you can't. You're a woman. And if you own a business, that's how a woman owns a business, you know, so it's, it's like you're saying, it's, you put the body and the biology first, and there's ways, of course, there's a few things in the Bible that says women should do or men should do specifically, but just because it says women You know, it might say women should be gentle over here.

Then it also says like elders are supposed to be gentle and not quarrelsome and different things. So just because it specifically says women should, there's the fruit of the spirit and all these kinds of things. It doesn't mean men also shouldn't do those things in a sense. Abigail Dodd says all of the Bible is for all of women, just like all of the Bible is for all of men.

And then there's some specific things that are great to take as well when it comes to being married. Women, wives should do this. Husbands should do this. Great. Good stuff. Thank you for going into all that and just sharing your, your story. And before we close here, I'm curious, um, If you were to talk to your parents, if they were maybe even listening right now, what would you want them to know?

What would you say? I would tell my parents. I love and appreciate them for the ways they did sacrifice for us growing up. I'm thankful they were married as long as they were. We had a lot of stability that if they had gotten divorced sooner, we would not have had. I can imagine boyfriends and girlfriends coming in and out.

Which house are we going to? Even just financially, the fact that they stayed together made it so we didn't, we never missed food on the table. We had family dinner every night. I, I can just see these positives and the stability that my parents gave particularly my mom, because she was willing to continue coming home.

And I have said this and would say that I forgive them for things they didn't do right, and that I understand and can have grace because of that. I also now know, even better, the older you get, the more of a sinner you know you are, and I can have compassion, like, we're only doing, we only, yeah, we have the tools that we have, and it's by God's grace that I'm as functional as I am, you know, I can't look back and say, I did all this, like, I'm great and fairly healthy and all these things, because I just figured it out, and you guys didn't figure it out, it's like, no, thankfully, I'm healthy.

My mom's influence in particular with, with faith, our church, people who mentored me, youth leaders, coaches, that's all God's grace to me. And so I can look back and just have compassion. My dad did not have all those same tools, but still he worked his job. He came home. He struggled a lot with mood and temperament and things like that.

But for the most part, we were safe and That's still adult sacrificing for you, you know, and so yeah, I'd want them to know I appreciate them for all the good things that I can see now, I forgive them for the things that were not ideal, and I think too, as an adult, I just want to make sure I'm taking responsibility for my own health and faithfulness, so as someone who's a Christian, I can't I can't say, well, I struggle with XYZ because you guys did this to me the rest of my life.

You know, at some level, I just need to say, well, what can I do to grow, to be healthier, to be more faithful? And so that's kind of where I've landed, I think, in my, you know, 30s. I spend a lot of the 20s going to counseling and trying to think through. What did you guys do to me? And then really you have to take responsibility.

And I've heard some people say you kind of have to parent yourself, but I would say from the Christian perspective, it's like allowing God, a perfect father, to help fill in those places that we're missing. And, and with Christian community and with the friends and families that you can surround yourself with.

Ask God to help fill in those missing spots and build, build you up in the ways that you feel like you're lacking. Yeah. No, I love it. Really good stuff. I, uh, Jen, thanks so much for sharing your story and for being so vulnerable again and, um, offering resources and things like that. If people want to follow you and find you online and, and then before us, how do they do that?

Yeah. So you can type in do better theology and I have a sub stack and an Instagram and then then before us. Really, you can type Them Before Us into any of the big social medias or into Google and you can find us. ThemBeforeUs. com is a great place to find kids stories. A lot of the, a lot of the difference with Them Before Us is we're highlighting the stories of the kids that have experienced these things because it's about them and their rights.

So I was from a surrogate, here's my story. So you can find all of that on ThemBeforeUs. com. You can follow Katie, who is our founder and president, who speaks on a lot of these topics. You'll find her. Um, what would you say to someone listening right now who feels stuck, who feels really broken because of, you know, everything they've been through and their family, their parents, marriage being a disaster, falling apart, maybe getting divorced?

Like what encouragement, what advice would you give to them in closing my biggest advice would be, um, To find someone to talk to so maybe I know Joey you guys have a lot of different resources for that for people to be able to connect with others, whether that's a faith community, whether that's, you know, Maybe someone in your family that's trusted to you, an aunt, an uncle, a grandparent, an older sibling, a good friend.

I would say find people to connect to and talk to about these things. We cannot process and do this alone. That's my primary thing. I think counseling is great, Christian counseling, but yeah, faith community and friendships that you can actually talk about hard things with people and And get a sense of compassion, not just get over it, but people who can talk through and listen to different things and encourage you, I think is number one.

Super grateful for Jen and all the good work that they're doing at Them Before Us. Go ahead and check them out. If you'd like, just search Them Before Us or you can find the link in the show notes. If you'd like to share your story with us, kind of like Jen did, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do it, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story Reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiological level.

It makes your brain healthier. Writing your story is actually healing as well. There has been so many studies that have found that people who write about these emotionally difficult events that they go through in their life end up being healthier, happier, less depressed, less anxious, and so on. Also sharing your story, not just writing it, not just thinking about it in a sharing your story with someone else who can receive it with empathy is also healing on a neurobiological level.

And then finally, if you were to share your story, because we're going to share it with thousands of people online, it's going to be able to help someone who's maybe going through something that you were going through and were able to overcome. And so if you want to share your story, the first step is just go to Restored Ministry.

And then the forum on that page will just guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and actually turn it into an anonymous blog article. And so if you want to do that, just go to restored ministry. com. Slash story, or just click on the link in the show notes. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe, you know, someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. And all our resources are designed to help you heal. from the trauma you've endured and build virtues so you can break the cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone you know, just go to restoredministry.

com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, take like 30 seconds to just message them and say, Hey, I just listened to this podcast.

I thought you'd resonate with it given everything that you've been through. I hope it helps. Like honestly, you will be surprised. How much they'll be grateful for you just doing that simple act. So feel free to do that now if you'd like. In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Restored 2/21/24 Restored 2/21/24

#114: You Were Not Made to Be Without a Father and Mother | Nicole Rodriguez

When your parents divorce, you almost always lose one or both parents physically or emotionally. But as our guest today says, we’re not meant to go through life without the mentorship of a father and a mother.

In this episode, Nicole Rodriguez shares the immense healing she’s experienced through parents who were not her own. We also discuss:

How her parents’ divorce started with infidelity and led her to feeling abandoned and lonely
The emotional numbness and skepticism toward emotion that she experienced
How she felt doomed to repeat the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, but thankfully overcame that

Buy the Book: Undone: Freeing Your Feminine Heart from the Knots of Fear and Shame

Attend the Undone Women’s Conference