#012: Counseling: How It Works and Why It Helps | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD
Counseling is a tool for healing. But how does it work? And will it actually help me?
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How many sessions do you need to start feeling better?
The #1 factor that determines whether counseling works or not
How to find the right counselor for you
Questions to ask a counselor before you commit
How to make the most of it
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Coming Up: Episode #013: Why We Repeat Our Parents' Mistakes and How to Avoid It | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD
Thanks for listening! Our next episode again features Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD. We why we often repeat the bad behavior we observed in our families and our parents marriage, and how to undo that cycle.
TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
Have you ever wondered why does a girl who was abused by her father end up with an abusive husband? Or why does someone whose father or mother had an affair end up cheating on their husband or their wife? I'll be honest with you guys, those questions have always baffled me. And another question that really hits on a fear of mine.
How do we avoid repeating the bad behavior that we saw in our families growing up? How do we avoid repeating the mistakes that our parents made? That's what this episode is all about. We're gonna talk about why it is that we often repeat the bad behavior that we saw growing up in our families. We'll talk about why someone who comes from a dysfunctional family, Often becomes bored with quote unquote normal in life and relationships.
You'll also learn why hiding your wounds and your shame is so isolating and actually leaves you stuck in life. And then we're gonna talk about how to avoid unhealthy behavior patterns and how to break those cycles, especially the cycle of divorce. This is very tactical stuff, stuff you can do today that you're not gonna wanna miss.
So keep listening.
Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow. After your parents' divorce of separation so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 12. An important thing that I wanna say, starting out, especially to all you parents listening, we are not trying to villainize parents, not in this episode and not in anything that we do at Restored.
You're human, you make mistakes. We get that. We all do. And my guess is that when all of us are parents who, who aren't right now, we'll make plenty of mistakes too, and we'll have a deeper understanding of those mistakes. But what we're trying to do here, restored and in this episode, is help the children who are hurt by those mistakes to avoid repeating that same behavior, to avoid those things that we saw in our families that are objectively bad for us and for anyone.
And to do that, we have to acknowledge the bad behavior and the hurt. And I understand, I get it guys, that these conversations may be hard to hear. But we can't not talk about it just because it's difficult. These topics have been normalized for so long, divorce, a lot of other unhealthy things that happen in broken families, and that's damaged so many people.
The fact that it's been so normalized, which you'll hear about in this conversation, and I actually think that even parents who've made big mistakes in their families and their marriages actually want the same thing for their children that we do at restored. So I think we're actually on the same team.
We want to help them cope, heal, and grow so they can feel hold again and thrive to live life to the fullest and become who they were born to be. And while it's always our goal to speak the truth with clarity, we do have a huge. Of mercy for parents at restored. We know that all of us wrestle with our demons, and the important thing, of course, is seeking forgiveness and changing our lives.
So please know, parents, we're not trying to villainize you. We're just trying to help those of us who have been hurt by our parents' divorce or separation. And I challenge you in this episode to actually think about your own family, the family you come from, and your parents, and the impact that their choices and their behavior had on.
Okay. My guest today is Dr. Julia Sadusky. You just heard from her in episode 12, the last episode. She has a doctorate in psychology from Regent University. She's a clinical psychologist who works at Ed Care. That's a clinic that helps people with eating disorders in Denver. She's an author, speaker, and a research fellow with expertise in helping people with gender dysphoria where there's confusion about their sexuality or their gender identity.
And this is really important work, and there's not many people doing what Dr. Julia does in the way that she does it. She's also a consultant for leaders in ministry and she's actually opening her own private practice called Lux Counseling and Consulting. She'll offer individual therapy around the Denver area, and she'll offer training and consulting around sexuality and gender identity.
Dr. Sadusky is also a research fellow of this sexual and Gender Identity Institute in Wheaton, Illinois, and an advisor to the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. If you want a more complete rundown of everything she's done, you can, uh, listen to episode 12 where I, I went into more of her work for this episode.
I sat down with Dr. Julia for pizza at a local happy hour in Denver. The pizza was really good and obviously can't share that with you guys, but I'm pumped for you to hear what she has to say in this conversation here we. Dr. Julia, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, happy to be here. The topic that we're talking about today is certainly a heavy topic, but it's an important one.
And I know from my own experience in talking with a lot of children of divorce, that so many of us are afraid to repeat our parents' mistakes. To repeat the bad things we saw in our family is we especially don't wanna get divorced ourselves. And statistically we're more likely to, which is scary, but it goes beyond that too.
We, you know, we've seen in many cases of divorce and separation, real dysfunction in our families. Whether it's alcoholism, whether it's an affair, drug use, porn use, uh, other addictions, you know, just serious disrespect, whatever might be. The list goes on and on, and most of us know. . We don't wanna repeat that, right?
We really want better for ourselves, for our lives, for our relationships. But often it happens that so many of us end up repeating that same behavior that we wanna avoid, right? And the examples of this are endless. The girl who grew up with an abusive father ends up marrying an abusive husband. The boy with an alcoholic father becomes an alcoholic.
The child whose mom or dad had an affair ends up cheating on their spouse. And that's always baffled me. I'll be honest with you. And I really want to know how do we prevent that from happening? But before we get to that question, I think it's important to dig into this question, which is why do we repeat bad behavior, especially the behavior that we've seen in our families.
Right. Well, it's a great one. I mean, it, it is baffling and I think for most of us, if we're honest, we don't want that at all. Not one bit. . And so when we do engage in behaviors that we've seen, um, that we hate , it often gets tied to shame. So, you know, there's, there's a lot of reasons for that. I think one of them, maybe the most obvious to people is the way modeling impacts us.
So if we don't know different, we can't do different. And even if we cognitively know there's other ways to be in the world mm-hmm. than the ways we were raised seeing is believing. Mm-hmm. and seeing gives us a path forward. So if I see modeled disrespect in a home between spouses, if conflict is normalized in my family, I can become so accustomed to that and also not really have a path for other options for me.
So as much as I want to do different, I can't be different without good role models. Um, I think actually the most, um, prominent reason though why we repeat the patterns that we hate is something called a repetition compulsion. So that in psychology is just a fancy way of saying that we do the same thing over and over again, expecting a better ending this time.
So we repeat, repeat, repeat, to try to get the end of the story to be different, to give us a sense of hope moving forward. So we might pick the exact same person that we were raised by, who was dysfunctional in the ways that you've already described, in the hopes that maybe. Tweak it. If I do this differently or that differently, or they're different in this way, or our interactions are different, maybe just maybe we can have a happy ending.
And so it's this kind of wish for things to be different without any evidence in that direction. So becomes somewhat of a fantasy Totally. That we try to live out. Correct. The bad outcome that we saw in our family. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is why victims or survivors of trauma really do tend to love forensics or love those kind of crime shows.
Mm-hmm. , they love seeing an ending where the person who did the crime gets caught. I mean, they love the justice and as, as we all would, I mean, we want an ending that's just, that's good. And where the bad guy gets put in jail mm-hmm. . Um, but when life isn't that, our mind does all kinds of things to make sense of that.
One of those things is a co the repetition conversion. No, that makes so much sense. And when it comes to modeling, just in case anyone isn't clear and what that is exactly, would you, would you explain that? Uh, briefly? Yeah. Yeah. So, You know, when we think of modeling, we think of the ways that all of us learn how to live.
We are social creatures. Um, we are learning creatures, and we do not come out of the womb knowing how to resolve conflict. So we learn how to resolve conflict, right? We're not to, And so modeling is just the idea that what we see, We end up doing, um, we mirror, uh, what we know and we become accustomed to what we know.
We even adapt to what we know. There's something really, um, intelligent about our brains that they can wire and shift and change based on what we see and what becomes reinforced in our environment. So every time you come home, you see conflict and you're used to that kind of heated romance that some couples are characterized by these intense ruptures and these intense repairs.
You're gonna look for that as a roadmap on a purely cognitive level, but not merely that. Mm-hmm. for how the world is and the people who are often in that position to model in a way that is most powerful are the people in our life who are our parents. So the way they do this, the way they do relationships with one another and with what with us is, is the way that you learn how to live.
It really forms us. Yes. And you can almost think of an analogy of, and it's not really an analogy, it's real life. Mm-hmm. Where, you know, a baby comes into the world and it's almost all they've ever known. Mm-hmm. is, this is what they see. It's almost like the Truman Show. Yeah. And if you haven't seen the Truman Show, it's basically this man who has grown up in this fake world and that's all he's ever known.
And so, You know, it's what he expects, what he is comfortable with, and eventually he goes beyond that. And I won't ruin the movie for you if you haven't seen it, but, um, it's almost like that, that we're just conditioned where we become used to what we see around us. Yeah. Is that, I know I'm bringing it down to like really basic language, but Absolutely.
Absolutely. I, I think that's a big piece of it. I mean, I think, and what our normal is, we adjust to, and we can become comfortable. Even if it's dysfunctional. And so actually a lot of times what I hear from survivors of trauma who have been in abusive relationships for a long time, they often say that when they need a person who's stable, who's functional, who can attend to their needs in a way that's different from what they experienced before they're bored.
Wow. They're not satisfied because it's so different from the dysfunction that they've experienced before. And lastly, I'll say, you know, another piece of it is we have this desire to be like our parents. And I know we've talked about this other times, that we want to be people who our parents can be proud of.
So even if we can on a cognitive level, say, I don't wanna be my, like my dad in this way or that way, we also wanna be accepted by dad. And there's something in us that says, if I act as if he does, if I be like him, maybe just, maybe I'll be accepted by him. And therein is the challenge is how do we form and maintain relationships with people who are dysfunctional in ways we don't wanna be.
Yeah. While still honoring the ways we want to be validated by that. That's such a challenge because basically what you're saying is even on a subconscious level mm-hmm. , we tend towards that. We tend towards seeking our parents' approval. We tend toward, you know, wanting to be liked by them. And can this even happen in a case of someone who maybe hates their parents sad?
Absolutely. Absolutely. If anything, it's the resentment towards the parents that drives the behavior. Hmm. So at that point, it's not a conscious choice. Right. But it's a way of punishing parents to make them come to an awareness of what they quote unquote did to us. Mm. You know, I'm gonna give you a mirror for how you lived in the world all those years.
Hmm. And I'm gonna make you feel the impact. I'm gonna almost punish you. For the ways that you hurt me by creating a scenario where you experience the other side of it. Wow, man. That there's so much there and it's, I think so many people go through life doing exactly what you said without even realizing it.
Absolutely. I mean, that's the, you know, in the work I do as a psychologist, that that's the essential place of therapy is, is. There's no shortage of people out there who are absolutely, are frustrated with the repetitive patterns that we engage in, in relationships, in the way we talk to ourselves about ourselves.
Um, what we end up doing a lot of times is staying in that place of anger, frustration. I can't believe it. What's wrong with me? That I do this thing that I hate. Yeah. Rather than saying, Of course I do that. Right? Of course, given the context of my life, I live in the world this way today. The key point, the point of change is saying, I have power today that I didn't have before, so I'm gonna enact change.
I'm gonna learn skills to break away from repetitive patterns that keep me stuck so good. We'll get into that a little bit more. Sure. One of the things you had mentioned to me too is that this almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Explain that a little bit more about self-fulfilling prophecy.
Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, this is kind of a classic cognitive distortion that we have where we fear something, right? We fear that an outcome will happen, I'll get divorced, but we also, if we're honest, don't believe there's another pathway. For us. What we've seen is divorce, or what we've seen is adultery.
And so we say, Honestly, I don't think anything else is possible. . And so my fear actually leads me and compels me to make decisions that drives me in the very path that I'm afraid of because I have no belief that there's another option for me. The whole time sitting there saying, I don't want to do that, I don't want to be that person, but not being able to step into a place of ownership over the patterns that we're literally engaging in on a daily basis that reinforce what we hate.
Wow. So we sabotage ourselves. Yeah. By doing that. Yes. That makes so much sense. And in a very real way, our. The dysfunction that we see gives us somewhat of a high, You've told me that before. Mm-hmm. . And that's one of the reasons why we repeat this stuff, is because normal feels boring, as you said. Yeah.
And we just don't know how to do normal. It feels uncomfortable. It feels weird, it feels strange. It's just not right to us. So it gives us that rush. Talk about that a little bit. Yeah. Um, well, you know, I think of different people I've worked with in therapy who have shared with me. You know, I just, I don't want know what to do when there isn't chaos.
I don't know how to be, I don't know how to relate. When I feel the most alive is when I'm in a conflict, when I'm in a fight with my partner. And without that adrenaline rush, life is less reinforcing. Right? I mean, sitting on the couch and having somebody come home and say, Hey, hun, how was your day? And it's like, Oh, it was great.
I mean, Real life is not fireworks every second. Totally. But when we are accustomed to that rush of adrenaline, that intensity of relationships, a stable, consistent covenantal relationship can become not a appealing mm-hmm. . Right. And if we can't even talk about that, if we can't even name the challenges there, the ways we've become accustomed to dysfunction in a way that we don't know what to do in a stable relationship.
Mm-hmm. , that's where we really get into trouble because we start to look for that rush for that adrenaline somewhere else. That arousal. Exactly. And there's no shortage of options out there that work. Sure. To give that rush. With bad consequences in the future. Absolutely, and and mainly consequences that bring great change and reinforce the beliefs that there is no other way to do relationships than in a catastrophic way.
And then we're just essentially going through this cycle of trauma where we experience this in our families. Let's say we repeat it in our own lives, we're ashamed of that. We pull away from people we don't see killing, we maybe do it again. Yep. And again, whatever the pattern might be. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, I, I think so often, and, and we can talk about trauma as big tea, tea trauma or small tea traumas, the little things that happen in life, and I say little because comparatively we can all minimize them.
You know, that's how we talk about them. We say, Well, it wasn't that big of a deal. My parents just got divorced. And the way that's been normalized creates a scenario where that's not traumatic, although it really is if we're honest. And so when we have those small tea traumas or um, big tea traumas, either way, what we end up doing is we end up recapitulating that recreating a scenario where that happens again.
Why is that? Because of a fundamental question of our self worth. Mm-hmm. So we start to say, I'm worthy. Of this. Why? Because that's less painful than saying, How dare the people in my life treat me in a way that is so beneath my destiny, like, I deserve this. Yes. That's a way, Another way that we adjust, We say, Oh, well, I must just be worthy of this.
This is my, this is my foundation for life. This is what I'm worthy of being treated. And so when we make that cognitive jump where we say, This is who I am, we will only engage in relationships that reciprocate in that way, and on an unconscious level, be receptive to things that if we had a different level of self-worth, we would bristle out.
We know that we're worth more. We know that we deserve better than what we saw in our past. Right? But how else would we know that unless we were treated in a way that showed us we had dignity and we want to believe on a purely. , you know, fundamental level as a child that our parents are trustworthy.
Think about how important that is. Mm-hmm. to be able to trust your parents as a kid, that is the most essential thing. And so if we didn't adapt in that way, we would really be in trouble. . Yeah. But now it doesn't serve us because we have to realize our parents are flawed. They're not the villain, they're not the monster in our story, but they are responsible in some ways for their flaws, their limits that have impacted us.
Yeah. Now that's so good. And as we've talked about at different times in the show, we're not trying to, you know, like you said, villain i's parents just give an acknowledgement to the pain that the children have experienced. And there is a way to do that without condemning the parents. And that's always the balance that we're we're trying to hit.
Of course. While at the same time admitting this. The truth that this is harmful, that this thing that happened wasn't good. It wasn't good for me, for my siblings and so on. So yeah, it's a delicate balance. We're always trying to hit, but I'm, uh, I'm glad you said that. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I mean, I think we're always trying to figure out, you know, what can we do differently in the future?
And if we can't acknowledge mistakes of people that we respect, where are we in that process of not repeating patterns? Even in the case where people say, Well, it's better that they got divorced than if they had stayed together. I was miserable as a kid when they were together. Even in those cases, we have to be able to acknowledge the hurt that comes as a result of the divorce, right?
Because all of the implications of that process, the awkward holidays, the pickups from schools, whatever it might be, trying to figure out where do I feed people at a wedding? I mean, all of these long-term impacts are so painful and they're not the kind of thing in our society that gets validated. It's so normalized that there's no room and space for people to say, Hey, that hurts, which is essential for healing.
Yeah. It's so sad and so many people listening have been through exactly what you said, you know? They just feel that what they've been through, the pain they've experienced, no one's validated, no one's said, Hey, what you went through mattered. It was really hard. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And I'm sorry we, we don't hear that often, but I'm glad that you're bringing attention to that.
Yeah. Well, and it has to be said in an ongoing way. I mean, for people who are wanting to support people, um, who are surviving from kind of some of the most painful situations in life, it has to be an ongoing dialogue because you know this, I mean, it doesn't stop at one experience. Right. The implications of it exist for the rest of our lives.
Totally. And that doesn't mean we can't have mastery over our experiences or some level of freedom and capacity to manage them. It just means it hurts. Yeah. It doesn't stop hurting. The grief does not end, and that's not problematic in and of itself as long as we figure out what to do with it. Yeah.
That's so good. We have to say that. It's okay not to be okay. Yeah. And we don't wanna stay there, but it's okay to not be okay. And to go through that, that pain and just feeling broken. Yeah. There's, We often just try to stuff that away and hide it and put on a good front and make everyone think like we have everything together, when in reality we don't.
Right. And the, that's harmful, isn't it? So, Oh, the inauthenticity of that is so isolating. What a lonely place to be. Yeah. To have the burden of presenting in a certain way everywhere you go, as if everything's good. I'm good. And, and you, you know, you said it that, you know, it's hard to be in that place where we have to act as if everything's okay, but it's actually an essential step to move forward to acknowledge where we are.
Acceptance is key to change. Acceptance of our current reality is the precursor to change for many of us. Once somebody says, Gosh, that sucks. Only then. Are we ready to say, Yeah, but I wanna do something about it. Right? Yeah. Amen. And it's so much better. And when it comes from within, that's so good. You're not stuck.
You can do something about it. And we're gonna get to that more, but one other component to this, these sort of. Actions, these behaviors can seem someone like a forbidden fruit that can be attractive in that way. Yeah, and I've even heard people say who come from, you know, a family where there is an affair.
They say, Well, you know, adultery seems attractive to me. Yeah. And that's so interesting. Yeah. Talk about that a little bit. Yeah. Well, I think that a piece of it is what I've already mentioned, which is just that reality that we admire people by the virtue of their place in our life. So parents have a private place, right?
And we admire them. Even if on a cognitive level we could say, Oh, that's not objectively good for me. Um, but any time we have sexual desires say that are, um, seen as forbidden fruit, they're more appealing to us. It's the rush that comes from that, especially as young people, right? I mean, what young person doesn't love to push the boundaries a little bit?
Yeah. So if we stay in that, Of like, this is desirable for me. I can't talk about it, but I can long for it. It creates space for fantasy, and what we don't see is the guilt and shame on the other side of those behaviors, right? Because dad doesn't come home talking about that, or mom doesn't come home and share about that.
What we see is the illusion of freedom or kind of an a radical liberty that comes from that, and who doesn't want that? So I think it's a matter of figuring out what is motivating me towards that. What do I truly desire beneath the surface that that represents for me? Mm-hmm. and how do I get that without behaviors that leads to great change and the dissolution potentially of relationships I really care about.
Mm-hmm. , that makes so much sense and. One of the things we talked about as well is that often the anticipation can be more of a rush, more of a hi than the act itself. Yeah. Why is that? Yeah, it's super fascinating. I mean, I don't know that there's a a why as much as what we know about, um, you know, if we're, if we're talking about compulsive sexual behaviors, for instance, or an affair, um, that the, the process of preparation for that, the planning, the texting, the anticipation of the event, it's actually where the most reinforcement happens on a neurological level.
So the brain chemistry is acting as if you've. The fullness of it. By the very nature of planning, that process is so reinforcing. It's where the rush happens. It's where the adrenaline is going. It's like, it's like that moment when you're a kid, right? And you're getting chased and you're about to get caught, but you're not quiet.
I mean, that. is what you end up living for. Um, we call that the ritual. Hmm. So the ritual in the addictive process is actually what's most reinforcing the culmination of it, whether it be in a sexual act or just any level of behavior that we've deemed, um, against our values. That is actually disappointing comparatively.
Yeah. It's a let down. Yeah. So that it's, it's so interesting to think about how the actual ritual, the planning is what is really reinforcing. If you merely disrupt the plan, people can make a different decision. Wow. That's powerful. And something that's baffled me that you, you mentioned. A little bit is in those moments, you know, you said we don't think of the consequences.
We don't see the consequences that the bad things that could come about. We act purely off emotion. Yeah. We act off of, you know, this desire for this high. Yeah. And on on like this. Scientific level, what's happening in our brains? Yeah. When, when we do this. Yeah. It's a great question. I mean, I think it helps people with the shame that people often feel about like, why do I do that?
You know, Why do I act out of emotion? Whether it's like I punch that wall when I'm angry, or um, whatever it might be. But what's happening is we have different parts of our brain that are the home of different aspects of our experience. So take emotion, for instance. It's called the amygdala, but this is the part of our brain that stores memories and also it's firing when we feel intense emotions, those kind of inside out emotions.
And when that part is activated, the part of our brain that judges, it's called the prefrontal cortex, It's the part that anticipates consequences. It's the adult part that fully develops at about 25. That part is deactivated when we're firing from our amygdala. Why is that so important and adaptive? Well, I mean, think about it, if I'm, if I'm standing in a forest and a line is coming, I don't wanna be sitting there thinking, Oh, well how long do I have?
And what consequences will come from this line attacking me? Well, by the time I'm thinking about that, he's got me mm-hmm. . So this is an adaptive part of our brain that the prefrontal cortex shuts off. Mm-hmm. when our amygdala is going. Mm. And so what we have to do is learn how to reengage that prefrontal cortex.
This is actually what's most prominent in humans. This is our capacity. We get to say, Oh, let me observe. What's happening for me, I'm feeling this rush, rush of emotion. This intense affective experience. I want this thing, Well, I have to actually train my brain to be activated in the part of me that says, what are the consequences of this?
Mm-hmm. , what will come from this? What will flow from this? Let's play the tape all the way through. Mm-hmm. , how will that play out? And do I still want that thing? We actually have to do that from an active level, or it won't happen. What are some practical ways that you can do that? Cause what I hear you saying, We need to detach.
Mm-hmm. from the intensity of the emotion and the moment kind of step away. Either physically or just emotionally. Yeah. How do we get control and as opposed to letting our emotions control us. Yeah. Well, I think a big piece of it is what we call mindfulness, which is how do I become a notice or observer, almost like a journalist about my own experience?
That's where we begin to tap into that prefrontal cortex is asking the question, What's happening to me right now? What am I feeling? What am I thinking, and what do I feel inclined to do? So literally breaking up to thoughts, feelings, and behavior. And giving yourself space to actually reflect on that, to observe that, and then say, What do I wanna do with that?
Because I mean, we're thinking about, um, affairs, those types of things is we can often feel, especially with something as strong as sexual desire, like we're compelled by it, We don't have a choice. Mm-hmm. . And when we feel that, we have to recognize that every single impulse, every single, single urge that we have will peak and then it will subside.
So if you ride an urge, you set a timer for 45 minutes and you say, Okay, I'm gonna delay this for 45 minutes until I, I get there. And then I think, do I still want this? Mm-hmm. , that's a way to realize that everything has peaks and valleys, and we will have much more of a say over the decisions we make if we ride a wave.
Whether it be of emotion or of an urge, we will subside and we will make a more effective decision because we'll have more contact with our rational mind. So it's something called Wise Mind is when am I only living in emotional mind? There's a common kind of D B T, which is a type of therapy concept.
When am I emotional mind? When am I in rational mind and when am I in wife's mind, which is the integration of the two? How do I use my observing self to make a decision that I feel proud of later? No, that makes, That makes summer sense and. Just the, the awareness was really the starting point, like you said, being an observer, almost stepping outside of your own body, so to speak.
Mm-hmm. and seeing kind of what's going on. And only by doing that can you kind of override that, the amygdala, like you said, which is just a paint a picture in everyone's minds. The amygdala is located in the back part of your brain. Mm-hmm. , like just above your neck. Is that. Okay. So yeah, it's a little bit, it's kind of, um, to the side back portion of the brain.
So it's right next to, um, parts of our brain that store memories. Mm-hmm. and the part of our brain in the back, that kind of brain stem is our core, um, survival mechanism. So that's what helps us breathe. That's where our heart rate is. It's called the brain stem. And so it's interesting because emotions tend to trigger that part of our brain, right?
Heart racing, sweating, all of these things. But the, a amygdala has the capacity, um, to be regulated by the prefrontal cortex. It just won't do it. Zone. Mm-hmm. . So it takes our active pursuit to make that possible. Yeah. It's not gonna happen, like you said, um, automatically. Right. It's not gonna happen without intention out it, so.
Exactly. That makes so much sense. One thing that I think is helpful too, is something you once said to me that you can't make sense out of evil. Like, and, and understanding why we repeat bad behavior that we've seen. We really need to understand this, don't we? Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I, I think. One of the biggest challenges for people who've experienced divorce is recognizing, um, you know, you frame it as evil, but just the way that those experience were not how things were originally meant to be.
So that when we feel ill equipped to handle them, when we feel like we can't make sense of them, it's because they're nonsensical. You know, what's more nonsensical than a vow made for eternal love until death west part that gets broken. It's nonsensical. You can rationalize it all day. You can blame yourself all day, but that will not make sense of what not comfortable.
And so there does come a point in our lives where we have to put down the tug of war rope and say, I'm done trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. I'm just gonna try to live in the reality I have. That makes. That makes sense, , as they say. Yeah. How, uh, I'd like to walk through a concrete example, just taking what we've talked about and applying it to a scenario that, uh, may be familiar to some people.
Mm-hmm. . And let's say, let's say there's a boy whose dad cheated on his ma mm-hmm. . Okay. And then he, he doesn't want to repeat that. Yeah. He kind of despises that, that hurt him too. Yeah. Because, you know, as we know, when there's an affair in a family, whether it's a mom or the dad, they're not just cheating on the spouse, but on the kids as well.
And so, like, the boys hurt and then later in life for the reasons we've discussed and maybe others that can't really be understood. Mm-hmm. , he ends up cheating on his. Right. Why, What's going on there? What is he looking for in the midst of that? Talk us through, talk us through that. Yeah. Well I think, I think, you know, we've talked about that fantasy piece.
I mean, part of it is that there will be a different ending. That could mean, you know, I have this affair and it doesn't have the negative impact it had on me. Part of it is I'm gonna test myself. I'm gonna put myself in those situations and hope that I'm stronger in the ways that my parent wants it. And so part of it's that not really appreciating that.
This does not discriminate, and I think part of it is that kind of desire to be acceptable and the fear of what it would mean to acknowledge that dad made mistakes. The anger that flows from that, the regret that flows from that, the resentment that inevitably comes that ill-equipped. We don't know what to do with, So I think that's what makes the healing.
Through this. So essential is that none of us are exempt from this. You know, those of us who are, who have experienced divorce in our families, we know that in 99% of cases, people don't stand at that alter and lie. Yeah. You know, they commit to something willfully and they break that. . And so being able to appreciate NPI is exempt and being able to talk about the challenges they're in and being able to talk about the moments that put you at great risk and being able to plan for them and to invest in a relationship lifelong that will not be what an affair offers are important because the forbidden fruit is desirable, but it's not meaningful.
Mm-hmm. and it leaves us one thing. Yeah. So we have to play that take through. Yeah. It leaves ust than mm-hmm. we begin and Yeah. Promises so much, but delivers on nothing. Right. That makes so much sense. That was my experience in different things I engaged in when I was younger, like pornography was, you know, an escape from the pain and the problems in my life and it ended up just leave me.
I'm tear and empty each time and, uh, I didn't want that. I wanted to be happy. And so it makes so much sense what you're saying and the, the part about testing ourselves, that's really interesting. It's almost like, like you said, the fantasy portion. Mm-hmm. . We wanna people to reverse what happened or maybe even play out like, like you've said.
Mm-hmm. what we wish would've happened. Right. Like, okay, maybe I start this affair, but then I'm strong enough to stop it or something like that. Exactly. And do you see how, even as you say it out loud, it's like you start to realize the way it doesn't hang together. Yeah. It's like, Oh, that doesn't really make sense.
But once we start to vocalize and name what we're, what we're thinking through, it's like, Oh, that doesn't really work. Yeah. On a cognitive level and also on an emotional level, it's like, that's not really what I want. But I think you're right. I mean, I think we, we long for a different ending. and we don't appreciate, um, what it would take to get there.
Yeah. And what it would take is a real level of awareness on honesty and transparency about the challenges, being able to work through them so we're not filling holes so we can actually be what we needed. Yeah. Because I think that's the ultimate fulfillment of what that fantasy is, is like how do I be in like what I needed?
And we get to be that when we're faithful to spouses, we get to be that when we challenge compulsive behaviors. And that is most satisfying. Yeah, exactly. But it doesn't happen immediately like some of these other highs, right? Yeah. Our brain, our brain gets that high. Of the adrenaline of the, or whatever chemicals of the affair, of the crime, of the pornography, of the drug use, whatever might be.
Exactly. So we, we really have to play that long game, which is hard. Yes. And it's harder when we're younger. Okay. Because that part of the brain, that prefrontal cortex is not fully developed yet. So until about age 25, that's not all firing. Yeah. So that's why it's so much more difficult at those ages to make a decision that later we look back on and we're proud of.
And so it's almost like a buying time strategy to say, Hey, let me just extend this. Let me just weigh this longer so I can make a better decision. That makes. And just, uh, again, go into a little bit of the science. The prefrontal cortex is at the, for, at your forehead, essentially. Is that right? Correct.
Yeah. Front of your brain. And, and that's the part that does the judging, thinking, reasoning, anticipating consequences. Okay. All important things kind. Yeah. Kind of important. Well, those are the things that make us humans. They set us apart. They set us the apart from the animals. Exactly. Lots of preachers have a brain stem.
Okay. Yeah. That keep 'em alive. That, that makes so much sense. So, back to the original question, how, and, and we've already gone through this to some extent, but let's really flush it out. How can we prevent repeating the bad behavior? Been victims of, or we've seen in our families, in our parents' marriage, whatever it might be, How?
How can we reverse that dysfunction? Yeah. Well, the first step is talking about the dysfunction. Owning it, naming it, and not being afraid of it. So being able to acknowledge and accept the reality as it is that was dysfunctional, period. Those things in my past were dysfunctional in the present. How do I see those patterns playing out?
What are the warning signs? What are the things I notice in my relationships and my patterns of experiencing myself and other people that put me at great risk to repeat the very things I don't want? How can I be honest about that with safe people? And then what do I want to do about that? So realizing that the past has power in our presence, that it does not determine our future.
And where do I need to break the patterns, break the chains that find me to a future that I hate, And what are the ways that I'm gonna concretely learn from people, invite role models into my life, who can speak into it, who can represent a future I can thrive in? And if we don't have role models for healthy marriage, We're gonna be really stuck in the how to.
We're gonna say, I don't want this, I don't want that, but I have no idea what I'm stepping into. So that's where we need other people who are doing this work, who are living this, to reinstall our hope in our humanity. Mm-hmm. . And then to be able to watch and learn and say, Okay, these are the steps I'm gonna take.
How am I gonna engage in relationships, foster what I want, and run from the things that don't? And how am I gonna have a community of people around me who can see what I don't yet see and can acknowledge blind spots and include therapy, but is not exclusively that. But how do I have people in my corner who know what ultimately my values are, what I'm working for, and can help me get there?
That makes so much sense. There's so much there. But I love the first thing that you said, really naming it. Mm. Putting it into words as something that I've found extremely helpful. The people that I work with have found extremely helpful. Yeah. Just naming it, you know, whether you're naming it in your mind or taking it except further and putting it on paper or taking it except further and talking with someone, a counselor, Right.
A mentor, a friend even, Right. Who is able to just kind of receive what you're saying. And even when we were talking before about the affair and just putting that stuff into words, um, things just make more sense that when they're out of our chest, out of our heads, Yes. And they help us make sense of the world of ourselves and essentially lead us, can lead us to making better decisions.
So that awareness piece and putting things into words really, like you said is the starting point and that. Probably where most of us just need to focus on right now. Absolutely. Yeah. Acceptance is the precursor for change. You know, I've said that elsewhere, that that change requires great acceptance. And acceptance is not a just, Yep.
That was hard. It's a sitting in the emotions that emerge from the realities we've had. It's not pretending they don't exist. It's not saying that didn't matter. Right. It's actually saying, This hurt, this mattered. What happened to me wasn't Right. Right. But staying with it, staying in that messiness Yeah.
Long enough to feel it and then closing that chapter, the story Yeah. Is ultimately where we're heading towards. Is that right? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think we've talked about this in other conversations about a narrative understanding of our lives. So I, you know, initially you talked about being from broken families, and I think there's a part of me that even like bristles with that, Right.
Because it's painful. Mm-hmm. to acknowledge that. But if there's a chapter three, you know, three years back in my life that says, Yep, that was the Broken Family chapter, it's a question of what do I want to name the current chapter? Do I want it to be a broken future? Do I want to be a broken relationship, or do I want it to be broken and healing?
Yeah. Do I want it to. broken and working really hard to glue it all back together. I mean, what, what does that look like? Right. And the cool thing about a narrative understanding of our lives, which is like a kind of therapeutic way of thinking about ourselves is, is saying, I get to take the pen back as an adult.
Even if the first three chapters were written by somebody else, I did not have control over how that chapter ended, the themes of it, or the dominant characters. I am the character today, and who else am I gonna help co, co-write this story? Mm-hmm. and the audience matters, the co, you know, authors matter and that takes great discern in to figure out who do we bring into our story.
Totally. And the co-authors, I love that because like you said before, having. A community of people. Mm-hmm. , who can motivate you, keep you accountable. Yeah. To get what you truly want. Those deep desires in our hearts, cuz often we just go after the shallow desires in our hearts that long for, you know, instant gratification, pleasure, power, whatever, maybe.
So we really need to have people encourage us and help us along that path and going after what matters the most. Is that right? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Friendships have been so healing for me. And role models, you said that too. So important. The mentors in my life really have redefined certain parts of my life that I believe to be a certain way, like lies that I believed about, whether it was fatherhood, motherhood, man.
Whatever might be. Yep. Relationships they were able to redefine. I thought of it one way and then I met these people, for example, like you said, who had good marriages. Yeah. And then I was able to see, wait, it is possible. Cause I doubted it was even possible. Yeah. So surrounding yourself with those people is so healing.
And I've experienced that in my own life. And people who've, uh, talked with me have seen the same results, which is, which is awesome. So all those really practical and, and good tips you mentioned before that we can get stuck in this mindset where our emotions are controlling us. Mm-hmm. and we talked about kind of detaching ourselves in those moments.
Mm-hmm. and trying to get control. Setting a timer you said, which is cool cuz it is so interesting. I wanted to comment on. We tend to think that an urge that we have mm-hmm. if we don't satisfy it Right. It won't go away. Right. And and you're saying the opposite, You're saying it will go away. Yeah. It's not just gonna get more and more intense.
It actually will peak and then go down. Exactly. On a a physiological level, it's impossible for an urge to last forever. It will subsid either way. The reason where reinforced by those behaviors is we engage in them . Yeah. And they bring it down. And so we don't come to know that it will come down other ways.
Huh. That makes so much. My question is kind of going before that. Okay. How do we prevent ourselves from even getting to that point? Is that even possible? Yeah. I mean, I think there are things we can do, um, on a purely physiological level to manage our emotions in a different way. So, So, I mean, you know, in psychology there's the foundational and just epic understanding of deep breathing, right?
And the ways that we can regulate from a top down approach that when we start to notice that things are activated, that we're activated, we can self regulate in those moments. We can bring the intense emotion down in a way that's more within our control. But I think you spoke to it. I mean, who is in our corner, who is helping us see our blind spots before we hit them?
And that's essential. I mean, we cannot do it alone. Um, that isolation is really a black hole. And you know, our thoughts are really wonderful. Our emotions are really wonderful, but left alone, they can really torment us. And so being in a community of people who can see what we don't yet see. And being willing to be vulnerable about the struggles along the way can keep us from getting to a point where it feels like we've crossed that line.
Mm-hmm. . Um, and I, I think good guidance from other people is pretty integral for that. You have to ask for help. Yes. And why do we usually wait? You, you, you elaborated on this more in our episode on counseling and how counseling. But if you would touch on it a little bit here, why do we usually wait till things get worse until we ask for help?
Yeah. We have this great illusion of self sufficiency. Um, we love the thought that we are in complete control over our lives, over our experiences, and that we have no need of others. Um, it is so sad because we are inherently social creatures. I mean, on a purely, you know, biological level. We need people.
And so the illusion of self sufficiency is a more controlled reality. It's a more predictable reality. It's one where I'm com controlling more of the variables, but it's one that is inherently lonely and keeps us stuck in pattern that we can break on our own. The objectivity is necessary, and we cannot be objective on our own.
We have too many flaws. You know, we are so limited by our own experiences, and so until we can normalize weakness, normalize blind spots, normalize questions without answers, we can't figure out and have the space for curiosity in life. We can't take risks and learn from others if we can't be in touch with our own need for others.
Yeah, we'll continue to play it safe in. Just to be comfortable and kind of live a life of mediocrity, which is not what we're made for. And it's so sad when I see that that's one of my greatest fears is living the life of mediocrity. And it's sad when I see it, um, you know, in other people or even in myself.
Yeah. And I just wanna run from that and yeah, it's, it's important to remember that we're made for more than that, so really good advice. Yeah. Made for more incapable of more, and I think that's huge here, is that we actually have the capacity for more in community than we'd be capable of on our own. That makes some make sense.
We're almost relying on a strength that we don't have in ourselves, but others can do. And it takes humility Yeah. To, to do that. But man, guys, you'll be so happy if you do. In, in closing out the show, what words of encouragement would you give to someone who's really afraid of repeating the bad behavior that they saw in their families, especially when it comes to their parents' marriage.
They don't want to repeat that, but, But in other areas as well. Yeah. What would you say? ? Well firstly that you're not alone. I mean, that is a real fear. Um, an understandable one, and one that's laid in with a lot of complexity. It's not as simple as saying, I don't want that. So the anxiety there is real, um, and worth listening to.
The other thing I'll say though is, um, what my therapist said to me once, which is that you do realize that this doesn't have to be the end of your story too. That when I look back at, um, my own parents' relationship, the way it ended was not the way I want any relationship to end. And I'm okay. My heart's still beating, and I get to decide what I do about that.
Mm-hmm. and I get to take the pen back. I get to work my butt off and to position myself in such a way where I don't have to recreate a cycle. So we have autonomy. In ways we don't even realize, but we need to start to realize we actually do have a choice. And there is great freedom and great hope in a life that comes on the other side of divorce, on the other side of separation.
But it will not come for free. It will take work. And so if you're feeling that that's real and my hope is that together we can figure out about, That's beautiful. And is there a specific type of therapy that people should seek out for that? Or what? What should they be communicating to a counselor if they're have this fear of repeating this bad behavior?
What would they say? Well, you know, I'm gonna just give a global apology for therapists all over, because I think the field of psychology as a whole made a mistake many years ago in saying that divorce was a good thing because if the parents were happy, the children would be happy and we were wrong. All of the research now shows a really different picture of that.
It's. And so there's an apology there. You know, I'm sorry for the ways that was misleading, but I think there are therapists who still lead with that kind of perspective. So in so far as we're talking about therapy, it's essential to figure out, will this person appreciate what was so damaging about that and not collude with the parts of me that feel drawn to that.
And that's pretty essential because in a, in a culture where divorce adultery are increasingly normalized, pornography increasingly normalized, albeit shown by all the research, not helpful. Um, you have a right to to know it's the person who's guiding you on the same page with you about that. Do they have the values that you have or can they help you get to the values that you won't realize in your life?
Um, pretty important in a culture where we've been led to right before by therapist. That that's an excellent point and that's why we're building a network of counselors that we trust that you guys can trust for you. And, uh, I'll talk about that more at the end of the show. But Dr. Julia, thank you so much for being here with us.
Thank you for your wisdom, for the practical guidance and advice that you gave. And if anyone wants to connect with you, how could they do that? Yeah. Um, best way to contact me is email, so Dr. D r uh, my last name is Dusky, S as in Sam, a d as in dog, q s as Sam k y gmail.com. So dr eski gmail.com. Awesome. And we'll put that in the show notes for you guys so you don't need to remember it.
Julia, thank you so much for, for being here. I know we're all better for Thank you.
That conversation blew me away. Part of the reason I wanted to cover this topic is that I've never heard a discussion like this before, and I hope you guys benefited as much as I did. In fact, I really recommend that you listen to this again and even take notes to get everything you can out of it. I already have done that, and I will do it again.
And one thing I wanna say to all of you guys who question your self worth, hear me out. You are priceless. And I don't mean that in a phy way. I genuinely mean you are priceless. Your value as a person is much more than all the money in the world. You are an unrepeatable person. You're worth dying for.
You're worth being loved. You're worth being treated with the respect that you deserve. And I also can say that you're worth all the effort, all the hours, all the money, all the sacrifices that it takes to produce this podcast and to run restored. So let that sink in. And I say that because like Dr. Julia, We tend to settle for things in life, things that are below our dignity because we think we're not worth much.
So just know that you are worth more, and I'm happy to remind you guys if you forget that. Some other takeaways. Awareness. Awareness, awareness. Awareness is the foundation. It's the starting point. Listening to conversations like these really helps to build awareness, to understand yourself and the people that you love.
And to take it a step further, we have to reflect on how we may be falling into unhealthy patterns that we learned in our families. We almost have to analyze ourselves and then. To name it, to journal about it, to talk to a friend or a mentor about it, to put it into words. Talking about the dysfunction and how we've become used to it helps us to actually overcome it.
Next takeaway. Acceptance is the key. Without accepting our past, without accepting our lives as they are, we can't change or improve. That's what Dr. Julia said, And if you've made some big mistakes in life, guys, of course, seek forgiveness, make things right. If you're Catholic, go to confession and if you've been hurt in a serious way, of course seek healing.
Forgive the people who've hurt you, but then accept the fact that it's part of your story. It doesn't define you, but we can't erase it, and we can't keep pretending that it isn't part of our story. We have to make peace with it, and that will help us overcome the shame and the fear that often leave us feeling stuck in life that hold us back in life.
Next takeaway. Seek out mentors, role models that you want to be like. And guys, this isn't just for kids. We all need mentors. We all need role models. And this doesn't have to just be in person. Like that's ideal if you can have an actual relationship with someone, but someone can mentor you through their books, through videos, through podcasts, et cetera.
For example, you know, Winston Churchill obviously isn't alive right now, but you can be mentored by him through his writing. And of course, as we always say, spend time with good marriages, especially if you're afraid of repeating what you saw in your parents' marriage. If you're afraid of getting divorced, which so many of us are, spend time with good marriages.
Marriages that you wanna repeat, you wanna emulate. Because like Dr. Julia said, we get used to what we see around us, and we repeat that. So surround yourself with people that you wanna be like, and that includes your mentors, of course, but also your friends. Next takeaway, I love what Dr. Julia said. Play the tape to the end.
So tempting situations, detach, take a step back, get outta the house, Do whatever you need to, to just remove yourself from that situation. And then play the situation out. Play out, okay, how does this end? Where does this leave me? What are the consequences that will come from this? And then ask yourself, Don't just scare yourself, but ask yourself this question.
Is this what I really want? Is this what I really want? What's underneath this desire that I have for whatever unhealthy thing that I wanna do? And in my case, in my struggle with pornography, what it was for me was, of course there was the sexual urge, but underneath that, I just wanted to feel wanted. And so if I needed to ask the question, how else can I feel wanted, What else can I do that's healthy, that will make me feel wanted, that will fill that need?
The last takeaway is get to work. Do not wait till things get worse. Do not wait until you hit rock bottom. Do it now. You can heal, you can change. You can transform your life. You're not doomed to repeat your parents' mistakes. You're not doomed to live a life of mediocrity. You can write your own story.
You can live a meaningful, joyful, good life. And we're here to help you guys. We're here to support you on that journey. And one resource I mentioned that can help you do that is our coaching network. We're building a network of counselors and spiritual directors that we vet, that we trust and that we recommend to you, and it's really easy to find.
A spiritual director or a counselor. Three steps. First, go to restored ministry.com/coaching. Again, that's restored ministry. It's just singular ministry singular.com/coaching. The next step is fill out a form should take you 60 seconds at most, and then we'll connect you with a counselor or a few counselors.
Again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 12. That's the number 12. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, I want to ask you as something, would you leave us a review on Apple Podcasts? We'd love to hear how we're doing to serve you guys, and it's really easy to do.
The first step is just open the Apple Podcast app. In fact, you may already have it open right now. The second is to search restored podcasts, or click on it in your library if you're already subscribed, and then just scroll down to where it says ratings and reviews. And the last step is just to tap the stars, to rate the show.
And if you have time, write a review. Should take two to three minutes tops, and we'd really appreciate it. Not only does it give us a good gauge of how we're serving you, but it also helps us to reach more people by making this podcast more visible in Apple podcasts. And as always, please share this episode with someone that you know who could use it.
Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.
