The Bible’s Messiest Families & What They Reveal About Yours | Deacon Ryan Budd: #162

So many young people from divorced or dysfunctional families assume their story is unique — or worse, that they’re destined to repeat the same patterns. But the truth is, family brokenness is far more common than anyone talks about. And God has been dealing with messy family dynamics since the beginning of time.

In this episode, Deacon Ryan Budd, who served as Dr. Scott Hahn’s research assistant, reveals how the Bible is full of families just as complicated, chaotic, and wounded as ours. He explains why God doesn’t simply “fix” things instantly, how healing actually unfolds, and what Scripture shows us about breaking cycles and building something new.

We cover:

• Why broken families are more common than you think

• The surprising dysfunction hidden in biblical stories

• How God works through pain instead of erasing it

• David’s family drama — and what it shows us about redemption

• Practical steps to begin healing and avoid repeating the past

If you’ve ever feared that your future family is doomed by your past, or you’re searching for hope in the mess you come from, this episode is for you.

Buy the Book: Salvation Stories: Family, Failure, and God’s Saving Work in Scripture

Get the Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:03)

Welcome to the Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Ponnarelli. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. If your parents divorced or your family was really dysfunctional, it's easy to feel alone, to feel like nobody else has struggled like you did and nobody really gets it. I felt that way for years, especially in my late...

in early 20s. But what if your family's brokenness is far more common than anyone admits? And what if one of the most influential books in human history is actually filled with families just as dysfunctional and messy as ours? In this episode, we explore the surprising dysfunction hidden in the Bible and what it reveals about your story. You'll hear how God works through pain instead of instantly erasing it about David's family drama, what it teaches us about redemption, and some practical steps that you could use to be in healing and avoid repeating the

My guest Deacon Ryan Budd served as Dr. Scott Hahn, a really famous biblical scholar's research assistant and has spent years studying biblical families and helping people navigate brokenness in their lives. There is so much hope in this conversation. So if you've ever wondered, am I the only one from a divorced or dysfunctional family? Am I the only one still struggling with this? This episode is for you. Now in this episode we do talk about God and faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. This is not a strictly religious podcast.

And so wherever you are, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, I just challenge you to listen with an open mind. Even if you skip the God part, you're still gonna benefit from this episode. And with that, here's our conversation.

Deacon, so good to have you on the show, welcome. ⁓ Be here. You're someone who deeply understands this problem of broken families and I'm really excited to get your wisdom, your insights into this. I've heard you say that the Bible is full of really messy, dysfunctional families. Can you take us back to maybe the moment you first noticed that and what was going on maybe in those families that made you think, huh, this feels like a lot of families I know today? Well.

Deacon Ryan Budd (01:40)

Thank for having me. It's so good to be

I wish I could say there was some kind of aha moment. There wasn't. I am a huge fan of the Baptist preacher Alistair Baig. Alistair is around Cleveland, Ohio, and he's not Catholic, but he is a master at breaking open the biblical stories. And he did a series on 1st 2nd Samuel that I listened to religiously, and it was amazing what he was saying about

the characters and the stories in the Bible, and I started to realize there that all these are real people. David's a real person. Saul's a real person. Mikal, David's first wife, is a real person. And that started me thinking about this topic. And then when I was in a parish as a seminarian, I started a weekly Bible study because I said, need to do as Catholics what Alistair's doing. So I started by giving a presentation on

a particular family, scripture family, each week. And then people could ask questions, and we talked about how this relates to us and what we learned from it. And it was in the midst of just doing that, because it was very simple. said, well, I want to do a Bible study about the stories in the Bible. Where do I start? Well, families, because everyone's got a family. It was like, OK, baseline, everyone can relate to this. That was the thought. And in the midst of just doing the prep work, going through and actually looking at these people, like, these are, these are

dark stories. A lot of these families are very, very broken, very dysfunctional, and yet God is there with them. And that was kind of the ultimate good news that I saw from that whole thing, is that occasionally he was hidden from them. They couldn't see or feel him, but he was there, and he was able to bring them to a place of, sometimes a place of healing if they cooperated with him. Occasionally not. We get both sides, both kinds of stories, and then some halfway

some families, we don't actually know the end of the story, so we can hope that they reach some resolution and some healing. But it was just by virtue of trying to understand the families in the Bible that I realized that the Bible is a story of broken families. And one great big broken family, the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, right? But each of big broken family is made up of little broken families. And I discovered that it's just as, you know, we think of the traditional family as full of harmony and

It's just as traditional to be dysfunctional, unfortunately. And there's only one family in the Bible that avoids it completely, and that's of course the Holy Family of Nazareth. ⁓ But even they are not immune from pressure and difficulty and anxiety and fear. So all these are normal parts of being human, and by being with them in these struggles with these families, God is consecrating that suffering and that anxiety and that fear.

He's somehow turning it into a means of meeting him and becoming mighty.

Joey Pontarelli (05:04)

And I'm curious, there maybe, especially given our audience, was there a family that comes to mind that we can maybe look at or get into a little bit who might mimic some of the families today, especially ones that are really dysfunctional, broken, divorced?

Deacon Ryan Budd (05:18)

There's a whole lot of them. just thinking about a bird's eye view, you have Abraham and Lot at the beginning of Genesis, and they fight over not having enough means. They were living above their means. The biggest cause of divorce, other than pornography use, we can't really quantify that because people don't talk about it, but other than possibly pornography use, the largest cause of divorce is tension over money, debt, failure to save. Four out of five families in this country had no savings.

living paycheck to paycheck and the kind of tension and it's harder to be kind, it's harder to be thoughtful, it all adds up in a little mountain that turns into a big mountain and they end up in divorce. So that's the number one cause of divorce. So we can go back to Abraham and Lot when they come out of Egypt with all their cattle and they end up in the desert and there's no water, they get in fights over the water. If you strip back a few of the contexts that are specific to their time and generation, we realize these people are just like us. Isaac and Ishmael,

is a story about the older brother getting surpassed by the younger brother and envying him and he's, Ishmael is struggling, I think, with his image of manhood. He's an adolescent young man who's bullying his baby brother. This is obviously not good behavior, but what's going on in his life, he's trying to struggle through becoming a man and realizing that he's not going to inherit from his father, playing the deadly comparison game, which is all teenagers ever do.

unfortunately and it's really destructive. You learn that as a youth minister how destructive the comparison game is for teenagers and adult siblings and friends. And it goes on from there like Isaac has Esau and Jacob and you would never know that these three were related because they're so different. So how do you deal with a family where your personalities are so different? And then Jacob's family they they are a soap opera. Really really bad stuff. I mean they're they're so messed up.

He has these 12 sons with these four women. The women are crying out for affection and attention from him. They don't know how to handle the situation. The sons become moral catastrophes, with the exception of Joseph. So it just goes on and on. It really is a list of brokenness. And God is in the midst of it, guiding everything toward Jesus and his cross and his resurrection and the mystery of the church. Even the most dysfunctional family can become part of God's story to save the world.

So are there any of those you thought would be worth talking about?

Joey Pontarelli (07:46)

I think one of the kind of questions maybe popping up in people's minds is like, why didn't God just fix it? That's one maybe way to ask the question or what maybe prevented God from being able to help them find the healing and regain, you know, some level of like health and wholeness and functionality within their families.

Deacon Ryan Budd (08:05)

That's obviously always a really big question. Fulton Sheen at one point, and I couldn't find the video. I went to look for it again because I referred to it in the conclusion of the book that I wrote, and I wanted to give credit appropriately, but I couldn't find the video again. He said, a lot of the questions of suffering come down to the kind of universe God created. There's a deeper question at play. What is the kind of universe?

that God created. And the answer is a moral universe. A moral universe, which is the climax of all things is the free will of rational creatures. Right? So we choose how things go, for better or worse. God's grace is there to help us make the right choices. Good examples are there to help us make the right choices. When our emotional life is in order, our emotional life is supposed to help us make the right choices. But the inheritance of original sin

we have this deep-seated resistance to doing what's right. And at one point, I was able to get into ⁓ the beginning with Adam and Eve. Actually, in the book, I wait till the end to talk about it. But when I was in seminary, we had this course with Dr. John Love, who is a professor at Mount St. Mary's Seminary, and he's an expert in St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John of the Cross. But he was teaching us about the curses of Eden.

If you remember going back to Genesis, God pronounces certain curses on Adam and Eve. And you can trace all of the dysfunction in the Bible families, one way or another, back to those curses. Wow. Which were God describing to Adam and Eve, this is what your life is going to look like if you don't choose to ask for my forgiveness and my mercy. Because Bible curses are usually conditional.

God is saying, this is what it's gonna be like if you don't change. I'm offering you a chance. I'm telling you exactly what's going on so that you can make the most well-informed decision you want. This is what it's gonna be like. You have a choice now, right? And so he lays this out to Adam and Eve, and Adam and Eve still choose to be away from him. And the basics is the woman's motherhood and the man's fatherhood are under attack. Wow.

and they lose their ability to easily find fulfillment in those roles which they were created for, so they go look for it somewhere else. And it's returning to that beginning where we see that the way we experience family life is not how God designed it. God did not make our families the way we often experience them with the tensions and the conflicts. That was not His design. And so getting closer to Him is the way to heal these things, ultimately.

through righteousness and repentance and prayer and forgiveness of others is the way to allow Him to do the healing that we can't. Because all this comes back to, this is what it's like to be away from Me. It's kind of a long-winded answer, but all these different families, to the extent that they come back to God, is the extent that there's healing. And the extent that individuals in the family stay away, some of that healing isn't allowed to happen because of free choice.

Joey Pontarelli (11:05)

That's a great answer.

No,

that's a good answer. And I know it deserves its own not just podcast, but course and life to wrestle with that big question, that problem of pain and evil in our lives. But no, I appreciate you going into that. It's just so fascinating. You mentioned just God's kind of response. I'm curious if there was, you know, when you look at all these broken families in scripture, kind of what was one particular situation where God like responded and, kind of he brought some good, tangible good out of like

all the messiness, all the brokenness that came out. I know we kind of touched on some things, but I'd to go deeper in one that like, you know, it's very clear. He brought good out of it. He was there.

Deacon Ryan Budd (11:58)

strikes me. What I was thinking about that question was the story of David and his brothers. David and his brothers you see starting, I think it's in chapter 17 of 1 Samuel, no it's a little earlier. Samuel comes to the farm to anoint the next king of Israel because God tells him one of the sons of Jesse of Bethlehem is going to be the new king. And Samuel comes and David's father summons his seven

brothers and presents them before Samuel and leaves David out in the pasture. He thinks so little of David that he doesn't even bother to present him to the prophet, right? So there's a beginning like, is he really thinking of this guy as his son? I didn't get into all the speculation, but like you could imagine what that signals about their relationship, right? That's the first one. And then we know the story, you know, Samuel goes down the line as it were with each of the brothers and God says, not him, not him.

Not him either. And then Samuel asks, do you have any more sons? And Jesse says, yeah, well there's the one out with the sheep. And Samuel says, well, go get him, right? And you get this sense when David comes into the circle of his brothers that God himself is excited to see him. This is he, this is the one, anoint him. You can kind of almost feel God doesn't get excited. if God got excited, he would have been excited. Like, this is him, he's here. But what do the brothers do?

What are the brothers? They say, wow, it's so cool. Our brother's going to be the king. No, no. When he shows up to fight Goliath a couple chapters later, they know who he is. They know what the prophet did. And they say, you know, what are you doing here? You're supposed to be home with the sheep. You know, didn't our father continue to leave you out in the field and send us to war? And they basically say to him, are you doing? This is none of your business. So they actually resist his becoming exalted as the king.

And perhaps that has something to do with why David's story is so tortuous. David is on the run for a long time, something like 20 years passed between his anointment and his coronation. And at first he is basically by himself. But at one point, actually at his lowest point, he's living in a cave. Saul has been chasing him all over Israel to try to kill him. And he's living in a cave. I think it's the cave of Adulam. And just the scripture just very quietly says, his brothers went to him.

at the lowest point. They wouldn't be there for him when he was anointed. When he came to exercise the role of the Messiah to fight against the enemy of God, Goliath, he was doing the Messiah role, the King role, to fight the enemies of God. They wouldn't recognize him. When he was killing his tens of thousands as the hymn goes, know, Saul kills his thousands, David kills his ten thousands, when he's a famous war leader, they're not with him, but at his darkest moment, perhaps they remember.

That's our brother. And we don't get any details about that reconciliation, but we do see that after that point, David's brothers actually do have a role in his kingdom. But you can only imagine what that meeting looked like. Sometimes the scripture is very modest. It leaves some details off screen because it's almost like private. Like, know, David's family, that's their business. But we can only imagine what kind of reconciliation that is. like, you know, David, we're so sorry.

We're so sorry we weren't there for you and all this time and here you were in a cave and man, when was last time you cleaned this place man? And then David might have said, well you know, but my tone of voice with you guys wasn't that great either so maybe I contributed and maybe they had a good cry and a hug and you know, they did the old ancient Middle Eastern version of a come home meeting with each other.

Fascinating. around drinking beers around a fire, know, like maybe what we would do now. They did whatever their version of that was. Then it seems like after that they were bound to each other like iron. So it was somehow through that, through their own neglect of him that they came to appreciate who he was. And maybe potentially out of sorrow for what had happened, they came to support him in his darkest hour. And we don't know whether he would have given up. We don't know whether he might have been killed. Maybe David, mean, this is how God works, but...

if God had worked differently, would David have ever become who David was? So that the brothers were there, perhaps at the time he most needed them. God is invisible. This is one of the things that you'd want to talk about. God doesn't show up as an actor in that history. But if you understand that God is the protagonist of the Bible, you realize, no, God is the one who drew David's brothers to him in that moment and helped him make the right decisions.

Joey Pontarelli (16:28)

If you're from a divorced or broken family, the holidays can be so stressful and challenging. know that pressure issues between parents, being reminded of your family's brokenness, especially if you've been living out of the house or at school, and just feeling a bit lost and alone and navigating it all. Thankfully,

You're not alone. Our free guide, Five Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family, offers really practical advice that you won't hear anywhere else, a worksheet to plan out your time with your parents, super helpful, and even a copy paste template you can edit for communicating with your parents through messages or even a call. Most of all, the guide helps you feel less alone and more in control when the holidays hit. You can get the free guide at restoredministry.com slash holidays, or just click the link in the show notes. It's fascinating. I remember you saying elsewhere that,

Just maybe as a little bit of a side note for anyone being like, where are you getting all this from in scripture? Like it's kind of wild. You can read it and it can feel very dry. But, I remember you saying elsewhere, and if you could elaborate on this quickly, that there's a reason for that. There's a reason you could don't get the full like emotional backstory. Do you recall what I'm saying?

Deacon Ryan Budd (17:27)

In biblical times, if you're writing something down, it's probably on stone in the earlier times, and later it's on papyrus, and it's very expensive to write on stone. You need the stones. You need someone who knows how to carve the stones. You need to know someone who knows how to write. Not very common, so scribes were actually very, they were like white collar workers, really, really elite individuals, because they had gone to school to learn how to read and write.

They usually knew a lot about their subject so that they could make sure that the manuscript they were copying was correct. They were highly educated people. So because of all these things and because ink was expensive, know, supply and demand, so there wasn't much demand, so it was really expensive. There wasn't much supply. The demand was very, more elite people. So all the costs of production were very high for writing.

and copying, so it tended to be done very efficiently, very economical. ⁓ The Bible is written also as a record of events that the scripture author knows is bigger than what he chooses to write down. There's more going on in the scene than the writer chooses to record, obviously. He would have to say, then Abraham breathed, and then Abraham breathed again, and then Abraham breathed again. So there's like...

There's so much off screen, so we've always felt entitled to try to understand what's off screen, reading between the lines. And when you do that, that's when you start to discover the humanity of these people. When you realize that, what's Ishmael doing, beating up his brother? Well, he's a 14 year old boy beating up a three year old. Like, there's something really wrong here. Then you can, then you sometimes are speculating, but at least you figure out the basic issue. Here's a young man.

who's dealing with what it is to be an adolescent, who's dealing with what it is to have his little brother surpass him, who's dealing with everyone acknowledging that and having a celebration of that in front of him. So you end up being able to discover how these people are human and relatable, and then how God works with them in their lives, and God doesn't change. So, well, I kind of feel like Ishmael. So maybe God can be there for me, and maybe if I actually listen to him, which Ishmael clearly didn't, maybe I could have a different outcome.

Maybe I don't have to go out into the desert.

Joey Pontarelli (19:48)

I follow you there. No, that's fascinating. And that's where I think your book can be so helpful to everyone listening because you walk people through the context and you set the scene and everything like that, which is great because it takes a lot of study, a lot of time that everyone doesn't have time to do. And so you did the work, which is amazing. I want to go back to what you had mentioned about God cursing Adam and Eve, or at least presenting the curse. How do you think that's played out in like modern life with modern families, especially

modern broken families you mentioned that their fatherhood and motherhood are attacked. I'm just curious your thought on how that's played out today.

Deacon Ryan Budd (20:22)

Well, I really do think it explains everything. Really? I do? The most powerful, emotionally, is the interaction between men and women. How that has been twisted by those curses. Because, and before I describe it, the reason it's worth describing is God is saying loud and clear, this is not how I wanted it to be. This is not who I made you. There is another way. Right? So, the reason why these curses are recorded is to tell us

that the way we're experiencing it is not the only way it has to be, right? But what God says to Eve, and he says to Adam that the ground is going to be cursed, and that's attacking his ability to provide, his fatherly role of providing. And he has already failed at protecting, because the serpent wasn't even supposed to get in the garden to begin with. So he has already failed in his masculine duty of providing and protecting. And so,

He's going to be tempted to look for fulfillment in another easier place that at least superficially promises fulfillment. And then God says to Eve, you'll have increased pain in childbirth, which is attacking her motherhood. And then he makes very clear how one of the major temptations, how this is going to work out for women. He says, your urge will be for the man and he will dominate you. That's not a nice word.

It's the same word that Moses uses to describe the Israelites coming into the land of Canaan. Domination, conquest, subjugation, brutality. It's not a nice word. What it means is women are going to look for the fulfillment in men's affirmation and in men's arms. And you tell this to an audience of teenage or college young women and they start to cry because they understand.

And a lot of them have made decisions along these lines that they regret with every piece of their body, with every piece of their heart. And you're saying, and by teaching this, we're telling them loud and clear, you don't have to stay like this. This is not the only way. There is another way. But the curses explain so much of contemporary culture because what are we looking for? Man stops being a protector and a provider and becomes a potential predator. That's what he is. That's what he becomes. The possibility of becoming a predator.

to possess women, to possess things, to beat up on other men, to look like he's the best and the biggest. And yeah, that explains what we now call toxic masculinity. It explains a lot about men, and of course, we know all about how the interactions between men and women are not the way they should be in our culture. mean, it's loud and clear. mean, when I go to the grocery store, it's the only time I ever see these kinds of images, because they're on the magazine racks.

But, you know, the way women's bodies are depicted is exactly what God said was gonna happen. They're crying out for this affirmation by the way they let their bodies be depicted. And men are, of course, commoditizing that, taking advantage of it, dominating it. A large part of the so-called women's lib movement is actually to gratify men who benefited most from contraception. Men who didn't want the consequences of their actions. ⁓

If we're honest about these things, the Bible is telling us where it came from and what to do about it. so it's disarmingly simple.

Joey Pontarelli (23:51)

One of the things that we've talked a little bit about is like this whole idea of like, what do we do with all this? Like, what do we do with all this brokenness? And I've seen, you know, so many young people, myself included from, you divorce or dysfunctional families who feel broken, they feel stuck and they don't really know what to do with that. They don't know how to heal. You know, I remember being after my parents, what, when I was like 11 years old and the years that followed, just feeling that exact way. And so I'm curious, like from scripture, what's maybe one lesson that can help these young people?

navigate through all those challenges that they're facing in the present moment and then another lesson maybe that shows them how to find some real healing in their own life. This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary

Denver priests who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 4.30 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado.

and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Blackstone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it.

Deacon Ryan Budd (25:33)

I think the most important thing would be to realize that one of the biggest truths of scripture is that this is not how God made you, this is not the only way you have to be. That's loud and clear. And that is universal. That can be for everyone. There is another way. How do we get there? By practicing the commandments of righteousness, by doing what we're supposed to do, by loving our family, by loving our neighbors, by not cheating at work, by

you know, doing what we're supposed to do by praying, by offering our heart to the Lord. It's not terribly complicated in the sense that only God can heal these things and the only way to get close to God is to leave our sins behind and walk closely with Him. And from there each story gets unique, right? Because you say, it's easy for you to say, or whatever, and you don't know what I've been through, you don't know what so-and-so did to me, you don't know this, and no, I don't.

not until you meet me and we talk it through, which is one of the reasons why it's so valuable to realize that scripture has the stories of so many unique people who struggled with either similar or analogous things. You're not alone. Whatever your struggle is, you're not alone. God is not leaving you where you are. And the medicine is to try to live a righteous life, to try to become a person of prayer, to be close to the Lord who is the only one who can touch your heart, the only one who can heal your heart.

to treat with suspicion any other other promise that might offer you a quicker, easier way, and to believe that, like David's situation with his brothers, the solution on the other side of the conflict, if you persevere, will feel like it's worth it, almost. Worth it doesn't sound quite right, because some people have been through some really horrible things, and that's not quite the right words.

but the result on the other side will be a level of peace and joy and healing that can help you make sense of the past and of the hurt and of the wound, which until you reach you're not capable of that. So that's partly what I mean by worth it. I didn't like that phraseology because it might seem like it's making light of what some people have been through. On the other side of that transformation, you'll be able to make sense of all of it in a way that you can't before.

Joey Pontarelli (27:54)

So that's the solution, is to living the life that you mentioned and kind of instead of maybe waiting for God to snap his fingers and take away all the pain, walking through it with him. Which is kind of unsatisfying for some people.

Deacon Ryan Budd (28:06)

Yeah,

no, it's not the easy answer, it's not the popular answer, but if we're honest with ourselves, if he snapped his fingers and took it all away, we would screw it up again. Seriously, we would. So instead of giving us, one of the great analogies is personal training. I do none of this. I'm not an athlete. It's a miracle if I go for a walk every day. But I respect people who do these things very much, and I wish I had the discipline.

Personal training. God doesn't give you a big muscle man body because you wouldn't be disciplined enough to know how to use it unless you've gone through the work to get there. So what is one of the analogies is the process of healing will teach you how to use the freedom that it will give you. Because actually your will is part of the problem and part of the solution. Moral universe. Back to your first question. It's a moral universe and the way we make decisions is at the heart of the question.

the healing is part of the process and it's part of the reward to following the way that the Lord is going to lead somebody to healing that's actually going to contribute to the end result. You have to trust that otherwise it's a really unsatisfying answer.

Joey Pontarelli (29:19)

One of the things that's been consoling for me when I've struggled with that question as well is, you know, along these lines, it's like, I just trust that God's smarter than me. Like I know sometimes I get so arrogant and prideful and I think, you know, I know better, I'm a better father or better, whatever. And when it comes down to it, it's like, you know, I trust he's smarter than me. Like he knows what he's doing. Even if I can't see like the big picture, you know, I can't see the ending of the movie in the middle of it.

I trust there is a happy ending, a good ending, especially if I do my part and play the role I've been given, which is hard too. But yeah, that's just the maybe simple layperson way for me to understand it, is like, God's smarter than me.

Deacon Ryan Budd (30:00)

He is. Even when it seems like he doesn't know what he's doing. Because it feels like that. And that's why we have to get into the more full explanation of how this thing actually works. Because, especially in other church cultures, those lines are so used that they become trite and unmeaningful. But no, that is when you boil it down. God is smarter than us.

Joey Pontarelli (30:24)

And I appreciate that, like about, you know, when you're in the midst of it, it can be really hard to, and that was me. I definitely have been there multiple times or yeah, can feel like we said before, like God's distant. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't seem like he knows what he's doing. Really good. Well, before we close down on maybe another question or two, I think what one of the questions that comes up when we talk about this topic of like, yeah, there's a lot of broken families out there. There's a lot of broken families and scripture is that it can almost feel like, well, know, is that the norm?

Like, that like what we kind of can expect for our own future families? You know, someone listening now who maybe is engaged or wants to be married and maybe even their newlyweds now, you know, is that the only option or is there another path that we can choose? And I know we've talked a bit about the specifics of that, like living that different life, but I want to play that out a little bit further in light of especially the chapter you wrote about the Holy Family.

Deacon Ryan Budd (31:13)

Yeah,

like you just mentioned, the whole message is yes, there is another way. But the answer is yes and no, because it's an unfair burden to expect your future spouse to be flawless. It's not fair to him or her to have that expectation. And it's not a fair imposition on him or her to expect yourself to be flawless either. So on a realistic level, yes, you can expect dysfunction because that's what

it is to be a human after the fall. Yes, you can expect healing. Yes, you can. When you mention the Holy Family, the story of the last chapter of my book and my own coming to appreciate them better is all united. So the original manuscript of the book just had these messed up Old Testament families. We didn't actually have the Holy Family chapter in it. And Melissa Gerard, who's the editor,

and a much wiser woman than I am a man says, you know, this is a really dark book. We need to end on a hopeful note. And I said, Melissa, I'm Irish. This is just the way it is. And she says, no, no, no, no, you have to write about the Holy Family. I said, but everybody's done the Holy Family. What do I have to offer? What right do we have to hold the Holy Family up as an example to others? They're so different. One of them's God, the other's the Immaculate Conception, and the third is the most righteous dude ever.

other than his son, right? And they're not supposed to have their own children, but they had this like literally God child, right? So they're what, how can they relate to us again? But I kept most of that to myself. And like I said, you know, the Bible says a wise man should accept advice. So I said, okay, fine. I'm going to guess this professional editor knows better than I do with my first ever book, and I'm going to do what she says. Fine. So I start thinking through

the example of the Holy Family and what they can teach. And one of the things that struck me is that they are the church writ small. They are a mini church. Because the new covenant began in their home. God became flesh. God Himself entered into this mess in person, in flesh. And He became a man of sorrows, accustomed to grief in their home. And here He is in the midst of them.

And we often forget that Our Lady needed grace to be who she was. She wasn't superwoman. She was full of grace. That means she was full of God's help. That meant God was helping her do everything, be everything she was. And the same with Saint Joseph. So, they were able to be who they were because of who was in their midst, in the flesh. And as the Catholic Church, we understand that the sacraments are the continuing of that physical presence of Jesus Christ in the midst of the Church.

This is the most ancient tradition and we can see the way the evangelists tell the stories that this is what they have in mind. Jesus is always touching people because he touches us in the sacraments. And so we have everything they had. The Holy Family. That's how we can relate to them. We had Jesus Christ in the flesh, in our midst, in the Eucharist, in the other sacraments. The Living Word Himself. The one who came down to earth to be with us because He wouldn't. He would not let us perish. And He offers us, in principle, all the same grace as He offered them.

to be holy and full of grace and mercy and to be able to avoid all the conflicts that are part of a willful, sinful, ordinary family. And all of those promises, I believe, are held out to us in the sacraments of the church. And I dare say I've seen it in a lot of families that I've had the privilege to work with over the years.

Joey Pontarelli (34:51)

That's beautiful. I love that. I'm really glad we got to talk today. Before we close down, I'm wondering how can people get the book? How can they follow you online?

Deacon Ryan Budd (35:00)

You can buy the book at Emmaus Road Publishing, stpaulcenter.com. Emmaus Road Publishing is the St. Paul Center's publishing house. The St. Paul Center is Dr. Scott Hahn's research institution, teaching institution in Steubenville. So you can buy the book there.

Joey Pontarelli (35:15)

Sounds good, and we'll make sure to link to all that in the show notes for you guys. But Deacon, again, so good to have you here. I want to give you the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you offer to a young person listening right now who, especially just feels broken, they feel discouraged by all the brokenness, all the dysfunction that they see in their family? What would you leave them with?

Deacon Ryan Budd (35:35)

bigger than all of it, ultimately. That he's bigger than all of it, and that might sound trite, but it's also true. To just not give up hope, and to practically don't try to be alone, because you're not. A faithful friend is a sturdy shelter, because even when he has gone through something different than I have, we have that fundamental loneliness and brokenness and waywardness in common, and nobody's alone in all of this, and that's...

One of the biggest temptations is to feel like no one understands me, nobody can help me, no one can... and it's simply not true. So, not to try to carry your cross by yourself. Even Jesus didn't do that.

Joey Pontarelli (36:14)

That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

The Mentor Who Became the Father I Never Had | Brandon Allaman | 160

What if the person you need the most in your life is a mentor who finally shows you the love and guidance you never got at home?

Most people think mentors are just for career advice. But if you’re from a broken family, a mentor can help you transform your story. Without that kind of guidance, we stay stuck: angry, lost, or chasing love in all the wrong places. But with the right mentor, healing becomes possible.

In this episode, we dive into the power of mentorship: why it’s essential if you grew up without one or both parents, how to find the right mentor, and how those relationships can heal what was broken.

If you’ve ever wished someone older and wiser could show you the way, or wondered how to stop repeating your family’s dysfunction, this episode is for you.

Visit Brandon’s website

Get the Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

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Listen to Episode #036: Healthy Relationships Are Impossible Without Boundaries

Listen to Episode #058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:26)

Welcome to the Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. When your parents divorce, you almost always miss out on the mentorship and guidance that your parents were meant to give you, meant to give their children about life, relationships, and so much more.

Without that guidance, you feel lost, you feel alone, you feel stuck, unsure what to do about it all. But that's where a mentor can be incredibly helpful and even healing. In this episode, we dive into the power of mentorship, why it's essential if you grew up without one or both parents, how to find the right mentor, and how those relationships can actually heal what's broken inside of you. My guest today is Brandon Alleman. He's the founder of LiveInYou. He shares how mentorship has transformed his life and how can help you too.

Now if you've ever wished that someone older or wiser could show you the way or maybe wondered how to avoid repeating your family's dysfunction, this episode is for you. In this episode we do talk about God and faith and if you don't believe in God you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this podcast for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. And with that, here's our conversation.

Brandon, good to have you man. It's been a while and I've wanted you on here so it's great to finally do this.

Brandon Allaman (01:55)

It's awesome, Joey. Great to see you again.

Joey Pontarelli (01:57)

Diving right in, I know that you grew up without your parents. What happened and when did you first realize that your family, your upbringing wasn't like other people's?

Brandon Allaman (02:07)

What happened was, my mom was in high school, my dad, I mean, he was in high school too, kinda, you know, at a party, met at a party, they weren't dating. And my mom, like, know, grandparents are Catholic, my mom was Catholic, I she went through, like, while pregnant with me. So they didn't, like, abort me. And, of course, because they're Catholic faith. And, you know, my dad, like, went off, did his own thing, and my mom, after high school, couldn't really raise me.

So I grew up with my grandparents. you know, they kind of made it normal for me, but they are my grandparents. And I don't think I really realized like until like high school, but I would brush it under the rug, right? Like I didn't really let it affect me, even though it was affecting me. I think it affected me from a young child, but I just didn't know what the problem was. And that was like not having my dad in my life.

He would only come around like once a year. I think I first met him in like sixth grade. And then my mom would have me like on the weekends and I would see her occasionally other than those weekends I had with her. It really didn't hit me until like I was 21, I would say, and started doing like missionary work and stuff like that. I found out the root cause of the behavior issues, the struggles that I had in high school and middle school.

So yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (03:36)

Yeah, yeah. And when you were 21, you mentioned it hit you. Was there a particular moment you can remember where you're like, dang, this is a lot?

Brandon Allaman (03:43)

And before like doing talks and stuff, one of my mentors sat me down and he's like, hey, how's your mom and dad? And I told him and he's like, I'm sorry. And I'm like, it's no big deal. But deep down inside, I realized like it was a big deal. And then when we did talks and retreats, like I saw other kids who came from divorced, broken families, and they showed like all these emotions. And I'm like, man, like I was just like them in high school.

I showed my emotions in different ways, other ways than like crying or being sad. So that's when I had the realization. And then seeing other missionaries who had like their parents in their life. And I was like, man, I'm just sitting on my bed scrolling through Instagram while they're talking to their families. And I'm like missing out on that. So I guess that's when I really realized like that struggle was a struggle. It wasn't.

Like I said, it wasn't a big deal, but it really was a

Joey Pontarelli (04:43)

Yeah, no, I hear you there man and that that image of you kind of sitting on the bed scrolling while they're talking to the family is it's like visceral That's wow. Yeah, man. You mentioned struggling in different ways You mentioned a few of them if you would yeah go into that a little bit more like how did you struggle? You know as a result of your

Brandon Allaman (05:00)

Yeah, I'd say like super angry, you know, just hurt people with my words Just yell pick on my siblings whenever I would see them I have four siblings three other from my mom and then one other from my dad and they live with like my mom like the half siblings on my mom's side live with my mom my brother from my other dad's relationship live with his mom

I didn't really get a chance to see him much, but the other siblings, I would pick on them whenever I'd see them, beat them up, all that stuff. And then in high school, using girls, drinking, drugs, smoking weed. just, I guess to numb the pain and then doing stuff, like going to youth group, football, masking my pain, masking that wound with doing more and more.

normal things, but it was just to feel loved, you know. So, so those are some good things I did, some really bad things, but it was all stemming from not a healed place.

Joey Pontarelli (06:09)

Man, you went through a lot and one of the things you made me think of is how a psychologist talk about type A and type B trauma. Type B trauma is bad events, things that you typically think of with trauma like your house burns down, you're abused, you're in a car accident, go to war, something like that. Type A trauma is the absence of good things that you should have had, the loving, supportive, stable family that you should have had. And so both of those are just as real.

They're just as hard and they impact us in so many ways. So it seems like that was like, even though you went through type B trauma, I'm sure, the type A trauma seems very prevalent in your life. I'm curious, you talk about generational sin. I honestly don't know a ton about that. And so I'm curious if you'd teach me like, what is generational sin? And was there a moment when maybe you realized like, if I don't heal, if I don't grow, I'm just gonna repeat the brokenness that I grew up with?

Brandon Allaman (06:58)

Generational sin, mean, you can kind of read about it in scripture, but I've read some books, it's called Healing the Family Tree, and that was just really eye-opening, ⁓ especially learning about that, the stories of people who had, they did something in their past and how it affected their future, and until they got healing, their future, I'll share an example, this woman, she had an abortion.

And then a couple years later, she had a kid and the kid was having like a lot of learning problems, like severe depression, all this mental stuff. And she went to a priest, went to a counselor who talked about healing the family tree and they had like a funeral for the baby and gave the baby a name, the one that she aborted. And when that happened, the child that she had was completely healed.

So there's like extremes like for healing the family tree like that. But where I get it from is like, you know, they talk about it, how King David had struggles, right? You know, he fell into temptation, but he still loved God. But Solomon didn't really heal the generational sin of lust, right? So he ended up having all these wives and didn't learn from his father's past sins.

And that's where I see generational sin with me is like, example is like alcoholism. It runs in my family and it's like, you I don't want to be an alcohol. I don't want to have that addiction. But I really like saw it with my dad. My dad, you know, was a womanizer. He used girls and now he's like, he's in jail actually. He got sentenced in Texas for 20 years. He's now getting sentenced in Massachusetts for like

40 years at least and it was sexual assault. You know, I've forgiven my dad, like that's a whole story that there's so much to that. But I'm like, you know, if I don't let go of this anger, if I don't let go of this, like my hate towards my dad, I'm just gonna create that, keep on going with that generational sin. I'm still gonna, like that hate is gonna make me be just like him. And I was seeing myself, like especially in high school,

using girls, not just like sexually, but emotionally, like, you know, manipulation and in physical, but it's like, man, I'm just like my dad, you know, I'm doing the same stuff that he did. I'm talking the same way he talked. And I learned like my grandfather like did stuff like, so it's like a cycle of abuse of her. And it's like, no, I have to break that. I have to create a new generation.

right, legacy of greatness. So that's really like where generation where I really dove deep into generational sin was and learning about it is because of my dad and that side of the family. Like my mom's side, like, you know, struggled with alcohol, but he's like broken that. So it's like, I don't even want to get to that, like being addicted to, you know, alcohol and those struggles. But my mom's dad like struggled with that.

And his dad struggled with it, but he never conquered it. So me, like my grandpa broke that legacy, that generational sin, but my goal is to not even have that and then teach my son because, you know, hopefully I have kids, you know, I desire to have kids and I'm not going to shy away and be like, yo, you know, grandpa was, you know, perfect. I mean, like he struggled with alcohol that runs in our family.

So just be careful. Like, you know, I don't drink a lot and you might have that desire and it comes from past generations. And that's scripture. It takes like seven generations to break a generational like curse or sin. It's not just like, you did it. Your son's going to do it. No, it's it's in that gene pool. So there's a lot more to it. It's like I love talking about it. Yeah, I need to dive more into it, but.

Healing the Family Tree was such a good book. It opened my eyes on a lot on this subject.

Joey Pontarelli (11:27)

Cool, no, it's good to hear. No, it's such a fascinating topic and something that again, I've heard loosely about, maybe read a little bit about, but I don't know much about it. So it's interesting to hear and to anyone listening who maybe is like skeptical or who's maybe not used to this God talk. One other way to think of it is kind of like you said, there's, you know, if you look at families, take religion, take God out of it, you kind of see these patterns of just like bad behavior, bad habits, things that hurt people. And you notice that it just kind of continues on down the line.

And sometimes we don't have that insight into like our grandparents generation or the great-grandparents generation But if you do I've dug into some of that stuff, too You start to realize like wow, it's really broken and there's some this kind of odd consistency From one generation to the next that you'd think wait a minute something doesn't add up there So I don't totally understand it if it's like purely spiritual if there's some like biological component to it too like in the case of alcoholism there would certainly be the case like a genetic like predisposition to you know alcoholism, let's say

⁓ But it's yeah, it's really fascinating. So I'm curious if there's anything you'd add to someone who's like I have no idea what you guys are really talking about.

Brandon Allaman (12:33)

I would say like vices versus virtues, right? So like, you know, your past family members could have different vices and it's like a learned behavior and it's like developed and it could be like, it could be physical, it could be emotional, but it's like, you know, diving more into virtues, right? So for every vice, there's a counter of virtue. like anger, right? So if you have anger, that can be transformed into passion.

right, taking that anger and turn it into passion. So there's something good about, you know, being like lighting a fire under you, right, but it's like bad when it turns into violence, right? So violence, anger, and then passion. So I would say like that, like looking at it, different vices in your life and being like, Hey, did my mom, did my dad struggle with that? grandpa struggle with that?

and learning how to transform that into a virtue.

Joey Pontarelli (13:36)

Beautiful. No, I like that. And I know we'd both say like God's grace can work miracles and work wonders and help us to like overcome those tendencies that we might have. And so no, this is really good. ⁓ Any advice, like if there's like one concrete thing that people can do, maybe you did it or you've heard about it, what would that one thing be? It sounds like the book is a good step, but I'm curious if there's something like really concrete that people can do to start healing their family tree, breaking that generational sin.

Brandon Allaman (14:02)

man, it's, I say just talk about it. Like a lot of families, like they sweep things under a rug. They want grandpa or great grandpa or mom and dad to look perfect. But it's just like, you know, talking about different struggles appropriately, like, you know, and respecting the individual just, you know, sitting down, having a conversation. Don't like sweep stuff under the rug.

Joey Pontarelli (14:30)

Good advice. I want to go back and talk about your relationship with your dad and forgiveness, but before we get there, I'm curious about mentorship. I want to talk about you, about this with you. So I'm curious, who was the first mentor that really helped you? And, you know, can you take me to maybe a moment when you really felt their impact, their help the most clearly?

Brandon Allaman (14:52)

Yeah, I would say so. I'm going to go with a guy mentor. And that would be I volunteered at the Veterans Hospital and I kind of got kicked out of the part of the Veterans Hospital because I was like causing chaos, throwing stuff in the library. And they moved me and because I got moved to the spinal cord unit, I met this guy who did KT physical therapy with the spinal cord patients.

and his name was Mike White. Still alive, but he just treated me like a son. I call him my dad. I call him pops. I just texted him. And he just didn't care about how wild I was, didn't care about my throwing stuff in the library. He taught me stuff at the KT. He would let me move the patient's legs and stuff.

And one day, like, I was like messing around, like messing with his stuff. He sat me down. He was like serious. Him and my his co-worker, Uncle Reggie made me memorize this responsibility statement. And it's all about like, if my behavior is poor, it's my responsibility and prove if it is to be it is up to me and like taking responsibility, not putting blame on others. Just like that mentorship, him like

Believing in me, loving me, no matter what I did and always accepting me, you know, that wasn't a real volunteer position, but I was like, they ended up letting me stay and help out and stuff like that. And I was the only person that was allowed to do that. So kind of bending those rules to mentor me, to love me, to support me. It's, yeah, he's like one of the first mentors in my life that really sticks out.

Joey Pontarelli (16:47)

I love that. When most people would have just, I don't know, shooed you away as this annoying kid or something, he really saw something in you and invested in you and helped you. I love that. I'm curious what you would say about why is mentorship especially critical for someone from a broken family?

Brandon Allaman (17:04)

Yeah, I would say it's because it's what you don't have, right? And I would say you can get a mentor or you can get a lost boy, right? So, know, Peter Pan and the lost boys. So, and this is the problem with gangs, right? So it's a bunch of lost boys. It's a bunch of people that come from a broken family, parents divorced, not having dad. So it's a bunch of people that have the same issue.

And if you're just surrounded by people just like you, there's comfort in that. But if you get a mentor who especially is a husband or a great father, a great dad, or just a great virtuous person, he can give you what you don't have and give you what your heart's desire is. And that's for love. It's for support. It's for someone to be there for you no matter what. That's a mentor.

In my eyes, it's someone that will bend over backwards for you, who will be there for you and show you how to be a great human being. that's why, especially like I've had many mentors. That's why I'm like where I am is just because like, I don't know, God like put all these people who not perfect, but you know, we're great husbands, virtuous men. And I desired that I would always seek them out. I would always go talk with them.

and I didn't realize it was because they were a great dad. It was because they were loving mother.

Joey Pontarelli (18:32)

I love that so much. And I would echo that for myself too, man. It's like, I'm kind of terrified to think about like where I would be without those mentors in my life. Cause it's, I was headed down a bad path at one point too. And it was really, yeah, the people who mentored me who kind of, I almost like to think of it in a way as like stepping into the parent role, you know? Like they're, fathering us or mothering us in some fashion. And I think that, like you said so well, that's like why, you know,

those of from broken families need this the most because when our parents split, when things fall apart at home, we usually lose one or both of our parents either physically or emotionally. And so we really need someone to step into that role because like you said so well, otherwise we're going to seek it in all the wrong ways. We're going to seek it in things that don't actually help like you said very particularly. So, so good, man. I think one of the struggles that people listening right now are facing though is like, well, like how do I go about that? Like how do I find a mentor?

Do I approach them? Do they approach me? What does it look like to actually get a mentor if someone maybe has never quite had that? What are some of your tips on that and finding a mentor? This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 4.30 every day to do an hour of adoration.

His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado, and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with

maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Blackstone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it.

Brandon Allaman (20:41)

I would say if you know someone that kind of has shown interest, like it could be a coach, could be, you know, like a teacher, could be if you go to church, someone in your church, it could be like a family friend. But I would say like make sure you're picking like someone that's like virtuous, right? Someone that you see like their loving husband, wife, mother, you know, father.

or just like a good person, someone that serves the community and the community. And then someone like that has similar interests in you. So if you're ⁓ like young adult, right? You're playing on an adult softball team or something like that, like, and he's older and he's like, you're like, he's cool or she's cool. Hang out with them, like be like, hey, would you be my mentor? You know, I would say like that, find someone in similar interests that you've had.

Joey Pontarelli (21:35)

That's such great advice. One of the things that was helpful for me, think, is exactly what you said of like, look around to the people who are already in your life and see who you admire. Like, who would you want to become if you followed, you know, the path that they're on? And then yes, like you said, seek them out. And I think one of the tactical things that was helpful for me is realize that you might have to take the first step sometimes. And it might not always work out. I think it's important to say too that like you might approach someone to be your mentor and they might not have the capacity because they're

so busy with life or work or family, but that doesn't mean to just stop. There's maybe other people out there who can help you. And I've had mentors for like seasons of my life and then they left my life and that's okay. I benefited a lot. We had a great relationship, but that's okay. So one of the tactics I like using though is going to, know, building a little bit of relationship with someone if you can. If you can't, that's okay. But building a little bit of a relationship and then maybe asking them to sit down with you to give you some advice. It might be on a particular...

problem you're facing, struggle you're going through, whatever, and you could, whether you text them or ask them in person, you can say, hey, I'm dealing with this in my life and I'd really love someone who's older and wiser than me to guide me, to mentor me a little bit on this. Would you be down for grabbing coffee or something at some point? And then just see what they say. And I've found that a lot of times if you pursue it,

people will be open to giving advice. A lot of people like giving advice. And then that could be the beginning of a mentor relationship. Like you don't ask them necessarily to be your mentor right away unless you have a good relationship, but start with like that kind of one sit down that you have, get some advice on a topic, and then maybe do that again, or maybe you ask them at that point to kind of mentor you. So that's been helpful for me. Is there anything else like you would add to that?

Brandon Allaman (23:14)

I would say especially the topic, so having different mentors for different things. So if you're struggling in sports, get someone that you know is good at sports. You don't want the mentor, say you're struggling with math, you don't want the math guy to help you with football. And I would say especially with this podcast and Broken Families Divorce,

Because one of your parents might seek one of their friends, right? And they seek their friends because they look up to them and it's like maybe go to them because they're like a neutral party because they care about your parents and they care about you. And they won't talk trash about your parents and they're not going to go to your parents and be like, yo, Johnny hates you, right? Because they respect both of you.

So that's just something that I was thinking about, just like going to someone that your parents trust. And that will help because it's like, that your parents trust them, that could be a good mentor. Because that's important to not replace your parents, right? You're biologically engineered to have the mom and dad that you have and you can't really replace them. And that's not what we're supposed to do. And I feel like having someone.

neutral can make you be like, yo, you still have to love your mom, you still have to love your dad. They're important in your life. And then you never know people like they'll try and replace your mom and dad and then turn you against them and then use you and then creates a bigger mess. So I also have to be cautious of mentors and make sure your parents know like if you're under 18, hey, this guy's my mentor and we're hanging out. He's helping me.

with this, this, and this.

Joey Pontarelli (25:09)

Yeah, no, that's so good. That's a good warning that not everyone who wants to be a mentor has good intentions or might be a thought through who don't. But no, I love that advice. And one of the things too is if you do have a good relationship with one of your parents, hopefully both, but especially one of your parents, they might even be able to recommend someone for you. I remember talking to a mom who was going through a divorce and...

we were kind of brainstorming together like who might be able to mentor her daughter because she needed someone to walk with her. And so we came up, we thought of it like there was a teacher I think and then a coach as well like you mentioned. And so the idea was like maybe that mom could like text or call or talk to that coach next time they're at school to see like, hey, you know, here's the situation at home. Would you kind of watch over and maybe even mentor, you know, my daughter, you have my full permission and all that. And I thought that was kind of a cool and beautiful thing that, you know, that mom who has a good relationship with her daughter.

was kind of doing some of the legwork to get her some mentorship. One final thing I wanted to say because you hit on the topic of like having boundaries too, which I think is so important, we'll get to that in a second. But yeah, just this whole ⁓ idea that you need a mentor even if you don't have him in person. So we have all these great videos on YouTube, we have podcasts, we have books, like there's all this content out there that the authors, the creators can mentor you through. Now obviously I think in person is the best.

That's gonna typically be the most like fruitful, but you know Jocko Willink can mentor you on leadership You know you could have like all these other people, know, CS Lewis mentor you through whatever, you know You have all these like beautiful like deep spiritual writers who can mentor you through your spiritual life So there's all this all these people out there that even if you can't have one-on-one contact with them They can mentor you from afar and I think that's super valuable and a great starting point Especially if you're a little hesitant to jump into an in-person mentorship relationship

Brandon Allaman (26:55)

Listened to David Goggins second book and I was really like struggling with like my mom and like the boundaries and our relationship and he had his mom like he had struggles with his mom, you know, of course had

Everyone, if you've read his first book, knew the struggles with his dad, but his mom was like the constant in his life. But that relationship wasn't perfect. And he had his mom like basically say sorry and like read the chapter. It was healing for me because I'm like, that's what I want from my mom. And at that time, she couldn't give it to me. So it was like my mom, like his mom speaking the words that my mom wants to say to

So was like, so you bring it out, Jaco. I was like, man, yeah, feel that was like Jaco too. read his stuff, but David Goggins, his mom and yeah, that memory popped in my head. That just happened like a year and a half, two years ago.

Joey Pontarelli (27:57)

Wow, we walked me through exactly what happened in the book. So it's a second book What's the name of that in case anyone wants it and then remind me? So he wrote something maybe about his mom and then he had a reader or how did that go down?

Brandon Allaman (28:08)

Never Finished is the book David Guygan's Never Finished. So he was talking about just because like his mom like grew up in a good family but had bad relationships like these men and like they would be abusive and stuff like that and David just struggled with that and very similar stuff with my own mom and his mom like read that part and read an apology like

She wrote an apology, she wrote like her side of the story, what she was going through, like kind of her history in the book and David let her read it and she like apologized to him and said she loved him and all this stuff in the book. Like they were in person too so it was like super emotional like you hear

Joey Pontarelli (28:58)

So

you're listening to this on like audible or something? to it.

Brandon Allaman (29:01)

And I was on a run, I was struggling because my mom, same stuff, had bad relationship, she was in a bad relationship. it's like, you know, I struggled with depression and it's like she can't say sorry to me. And it was just like, I don't know, that apology really healed my heart because I know that's what my mom wants to say. That's where my mom wants to be. And it was like...

a taste to when that transformation happens or is happening and it was like a belief in me like, yo, this is possible. Like my mom one day will love me how I desire to be loved.

Joey Pontarelli (29:43)

So good, yeah. I think that's beautiful that, you know, through David Goggins of all people, like got that message. It's amazing. I love it. Maybe right now let's throw out some of the mentors that we've had from afar. Let's call them mentors from afar so that people can learn more if they want to. So the one that I mentioned before was Jocko Willink. So I learned, you know, like you, I've learned so much just about like being a man and leadership in particular when it comes to ⁓

whether leading in business or just life, leading your family. So that was one person I've learned a lot from. On the business side of things, one guy I've learned a ton from was Dave Ramsey actually. So everyone knows Dave Ramsey as this personal finance guru and I've learned a lot. He's mentored me in that area of life too, in the finance area. But I've learned a lot from him and his team through their Entree Leadership brand. And I don't wanna get too far on topic, but for anyone out there who's hoping to develop their career, run a business or something, he's another mentor that was really helpful for me too.

We can maybe go back and forth if you want and just throw out some of the ones that have helped us so that maybe people can look into them. What are a that come to mind for you? Okay, real talk. If you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people and it was really helpful for me personally. In the guide, he breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make, like under eating, over stressing.

or focusing too much on the scale and it gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use, you can implement today. And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally.

Brandon Allaman (31:25)

So I would say Jeff Cavalier, I say like working out, like fitness. He's a big mentor. Like I do a lot of stuff through his programs, watch his videos. His is like ATHLEANX. So that's his, his like business. mean, spiritually, Fulton Sheen, that's my guy. That's like, you know, he has topics, non-spiritual topics, just life.

He has a book called Peace of Soul that talks about anxiety and the mental health that I think is really good.

Joey Pontarelli (32:00)

No, so good. And on the spiritual note, while you're thinking of that, I was just thinking of, I've learned a lot from Father Jacques Philippe. He's a French priest who just writes really beautifully on just life in general. But he has this great book called, Searching for and Maintaining Piece of Heart. And so if you're ever struggling with, you know, anxiety, if you're struggling with just a lot of like preoccupation or worrying about like life,

That book will bring you peace. It's amazing. It's so good. I've read it multiple times. I've given it away to people. So he's been a mentor from afar. I got to meet him in Denver years ago, really briefly. He primarily speaks French, so he doesn't really speak much English, but we were able to communicate like really briefly and it was beautiful. Another one I would say, Jason Everett, both from afar and I've gotten to know him. We have a partnership between our apostles now, which has been really fun. And he...

I know he just so articulate when it comes to relationships, like dating relationships, navigating any sort of like struggles with sexuality, like porn or masturbation, things like that. He was just so helpful when I was like going through breakups or had struggles in relationships, I would reach out to him and he'd give me some good guidance. But his books, like the Dating Blueprint, I'd say is really good for men. If you wanna know like how to pursue a woman, like tactically, like all the...

the right ways to do that and things to avoid. And then for women, he wrote the book, How to Find Your Soulmate Without Losing Your Soul. And that one's for women, for like what to know to look for in a man and how to go about that the right way. And so he and his wife, Kristalina too, but especially Jason for me in particular, were great mentors of mine.

Brandon Allaman (33:37)

Yeah, I say, I mean, I have a business. It's the first business book I ever read. was DL Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People. That book really, especially in high school, is probably the only book I ever read in high school. that's business leaders use that book. mean, it's one of the best books written for business. And I still use it in what I do.

I tell people in my field, like, you know, forget about the catechism, forget about all that stuff. If you want to do correct ministry, read how to win friends and influence people, like, that's the base.

Joey Pontarelli (34:18)

I love it and it's really good for anyone who wants to you know, build good relationships like having friendships good romantic relationships One guy I've been listening to a little bit recently is Jefferson Fisher He's a trial attorney and he's really great at communicating like he helps he gives really practical tips tactics on how to communicate especially in like conflict and difficult situations So he's like a really great one

Who else? Ken Coleman, I always recommend him to people who, and we'll close this down in a second here. I don't want to overload you guys with resources, but Ken Coleman is another great one who he's like a career coach. He helps people find work they love and how to get into that role. So anyway, there's a lot here and I don't mean to go off topic, but we want to help you guys thrive. And like we said, mentors are important and these are some of the ones that you can start with. But any final thoughts on mentors you would recommend?

Brandon Allaman (35:08)

Spread your wings because like you said, your mentors will be in a season ⁓ and also yourself, you're in a season so you can always grow, can always improve, you can always get better, you can always learn. Not just in high school and college, but even as adults, still seeking out mentors is so important.

Joey Pontarelli (35:30)

So good. I want to transition now to ⁓ talk about boundaries a bit. So can you walk me through maybe a time when you set a boundary in your family that was really hard to do but necessary?

Brandon Allaman (35:42)

I say like with my grandma. This grandma is my mom's mom. And my grandma, like she's Catholic. She has a heart for other people and her empathy can kind of get herself in trouble and end up hurting people. Like she really cares about everyone. But like about like six years ago, she like was like communicating with my dad from jail. And I told her that hurts me that, you know,

He still talks bad about me. He threatens me. He did hurtful things when I was in high school around him, middle school. Can you please stop communicating with him? And she said no. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm gonna have to put a boundary up between us because I can't trust you. ⁓ Our trust is broken because it's like this man who hurt your daughter has done.

a bunch of bad stuff throughout the years to different family members, to myself hurting me, putting me in bad environments. You're communicating with them. Yeah, you're supposed to write that in prison, love everyone, but you got to love me. You got to take care of me. I'm your grandson. He's not your son. And I had to put that boundary and it was hard because, know, I love my grandma. I care about her, but I also have to protect myself and protect the people that like

I'm around because I was like traveling and I don't know if my dad's gonna break out of prison or get out and my grandma's telling him, he goes here and he finds me there and hurts like the people I'm around. So that's like a boundary where like I had to like kind of distance myself, stop talking to like a family member because it led to more pain for me and protecting people around me.

So it's so important, like a boundary just doesn't protect you, it protects the people that you can love. Like for me, like when my dad gets out of jail, like I'll still like talk with him, I'll go out to eat with him, but I won't let him be like be around like when he gets out, probably have kids and a wife, God willing. And like I gotta protect them. So I have to create a boundary, still love my dad, but also protect my hopefully future family.

Or current family like my mom and my siblings, my niece, my nephews. That's just like two instances with the same person. And my grandma like ended up saying, I'm not going to write to them. You know, we have a great relationship. mean, through that we had a great relationship, but it was kind of, it was hard because I wasn't talking there, but had to make my point of how much my dad has hurt me.

Joey Pontarelli (38:30)

Yeah,

I'm so sorry man. That's rough. that's so good, though. Such a good, story and good advice, even though it's painful. I think we need to learn to like, our ground and speak, you know, speak up when there's maybe behavior around us, deterting us and we shouldn't have to put up with that. I think that's like really, really important. And like you saw too, with the right people in our life, they'll recognize that and be like, oh shoot.

I made a mistake here, I'm sorry. I definitely want to respect this boundary. If they're healthy and respectful, right? And I've seen that too. It actually makes people respect you more and it actually can help you have a healthier relationship with those boundaries. It's not all about like putting up a fence and keeping people out, it's about having like that proper relationship with that.

So I think it's your story eliminates that really well I'm curious about ⁓ I know any advice you have for someone who's maybe struggling to put up boundaries Or maybe making mistakes in the way that they do it like what have you seen and what advice would you give in terms of like? How do you do this? Well for countless teens and young adults their parents divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced But so many feel lost and alone and navigating the challenges. I've been there myself It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way my book. It's not your fault

guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face, cope in healthy ways instead of falling into bad habits, improve their relationship with their parents, navigate the holidays and other life events, and build healthy relationships and so much more. One Amazon review said this, this book is packed full of really practical help. If you come from a broken family, or even if you don't, but you love someone that does, this book is so helpful. I can't recommend this enough.

By the way, it's a quick read and it doesn't need to be read cover to cover. Since it's in question and answer format, you can just read one of the questions and one of the answers. And so if you want to join the thousands of people who've gotten a copy, just go to restoredministry.com slash books to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restoredministry.com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes.

Brandon Allaman (40:30)

Yeah, I mean, respect yourself. You got to take care of yourself. because forgiveness does not mean forgetting. And I feel like we have a misconception of forgiveness. Yeah, you forgive the person, you love the person, but also you don't know if the person has forgiven themselves or

Reconciled, right? Has like fixed their mistake. So until some testing time, you got to kind of remember what they did and create a boundary so they don't hurt you and they don't hurt themselves. like that boundary, it does not just protect you, it protects that person. And you have to take care of yourself. Like that's how I started it. Yourself, your wellbeing is so important and you might not do it perfect and that's okay.

You're learning. This is hard. Boundaries are hard. That's why most people don't do it. That's why most people don't have boundaries and they end up getting hurt more and more. people don't talk about it much. People just say, forgive them, forget it. Just be normal and you can't do that. I know there's a book called Boundaries out there, but I don't know really any other book that talks about boundaries and the importance of it.

I just know it's like important to protect yourself, to take care of yourself.

Joey Pontarelli (41:53)

No, no, and I found the Boundaries book helpful personally and so I'd recommend that to everyone listening and ⁓ if you want a kind of quicker overview of the book we reviewed it and we kind of give you like the main points in podcast episode I think it's episode 36 if you guys want to go well We'll link it in the show notes, but if you guys want to check that out ⁓ If you're you struggling in this area and need some help That's a great start to listen to the podcast maybe get the book and try to put some of the stuff into action in your life I want to transition to forgiveness because you mentioned it

forgiveness is hard for a lot of people for lot of reasons. And so I'm curious, like, yeah, how have you struggled with it? And what helped you get to that point in particular? Was there like one thing that helped you get to the point where you're like, okay, I can forgive my dad for all the harm he's done to me.

Brandon Allaman (42:37)

Yeah, I would say I was like 22, I think. my dad, so my dad went to jail in 2013. I was 21. So a year later, I went to Texas, I was going to go see him in jail. And I went to confession. And I told the priest who could be a mentor to like if you're Catholic.

or any of your spiritual leaders, they can be mentors. But it was a random priest and I was real with him. I was like, yeah, I'm struggling with my mom and my dad. Like I can't stand them. Like I hate them for what they did to me. And he's like, you have the perfect mom and dad for you. Like if you didn't have your mom and dad, you wouldn't be who you are. And he didn't know who I was or anything like that. And then I went to like Texas.

I saw my grandparents, my aunt, and my aunt really told me about my dad and how when he was a young kid, he was abused. And then when he was 15, this woman from the church, older woman from his church did stuff with him. And I'm like, two years later, he met my mom and was Mormonizer and all that stuff. So I was like, hurt people, hurt people. And my dad,

been through stuff, right? So I was like, you know, if I hold on to this, I'm gonna be just like my dad. You know, my dad probably held on to all his abuse and all his hurt and blamed other people. And I was like, you know, I'm gonna forgive him. I'm gonna let it go. And yeah, so I'm like, I love my dad. Like I tell people, pray for him. You know, it's, you know, all the pain that he went through. And it's like, you know, I wanna create a legacy.

for him. I want to be great for that person inside that he desired to be, but he never got to be because he held on to stuff. ⁓ It's funny because my grandparents on that side said my dad always talked about wanting to be a missionary, right? And I got a chance to live that out. And it's just like, if I would have held on to that and still hate my dad,

I couldn't be doing what I'm doing, right? So, and that's my dad's side, like, ⁓ of letting go and forgiveness and everything like that. It was kind of like a one-time thing just because my dad's not in my life constantly. Not my mom, it's been different. It's been a different journey, but also a beautiful journey.

Joey Pontarelli (45:16)

No, it's super mature of you to be able to get to that point because I feel like there's a lot of people in life and I've struggled in this area too where you just carry unforgiveness with you for years and years and years and that weighs you down. You know, there's that whole saying unforgiveness is like

drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. And there's all these other sayings about it too. And we did an episode for anyone interested on this topic more with Father John Burns on this whole topic of forgiveness. And he is a Catholic priest, but he did his secular PhD dissertation on the topic of forgiveness. And he looked at psychologists and other experts who saw what they have to say and how forgiveness can actually help you be better, healthier.

So really fascinating. Again, he did his whole PhD dissertation on it. It will become a book at some point in the future. But we'll link to that episode in the show notes. If you're struggling with forgiveness and you need some more help guidance there, Father John is great. So check that out as well. But so good. I want to transition into like the final question I have for you and that is about rebuilding trust.

think it's very appropriate given everything we've talked about. After betrayal, especially rebuilding trust is super hard. I know you talk about this. What's maybe the most helpful advice that you give to people when it comes to ⁓ rebuilding trust after betrayal? Do you have maybe a story to go along with that?

Brandon Allaman (46:36)

I'm glad you asked that. I had a perfect thing. We kind of preface this, but I would say like my mom. And like I said, just a moment ago, like it's been a constant like ebbs and flow, good relationship, bad relationship. And just recently had to like build a lot of trust because a year ago she was in a bad relationship, abusive relationship. And I tried to save her. You know, I tried to like go there and

And she said no. And I begged her, I'm like, stop. Why do you love all these guys over me? Like, you know, why do you keep choosing all these guys and not loving me, your son? And she just couldn't break that. And she couldn't come with us. She didn't come with us. But like a couple months later, she got out of that relationship. But the trust was gone. you know, I was just like, you you hurt me. I tried to get you out. I tried to be your savior.

and that trust was broken. And it was beautiful because I got back home and I went to church and I looked over and I saw her and I texted her afterwards. I was like, hey, I saw you at church. I didn't text her in a while. And she's like, yeah, I've been going. And I was like, awesome. So we've been rebuilding our relationship and I'm like trusting her, like, you know, I'm hanging out with her.

you know, texting her more, FaceTime-ing. And it's hope, it's like trust and hope that, you know, like she's not gonna cave back. She's not going to like go backwards. And she's doing a lot of stuff that I know is helping her like going to church, taking vitamins, like reaching out, texting me. So that trust is rebuilding. So like, if you hurt someone, it's like be interested in what they like and what they're telling you.

like be open and if you're hurt, like just be like honest, be like, hey, this is gonna help me to like trust you again, doing stuff that I like, you know, reaching out to me, going to dinner, you know, so it's a process and it's rebuilding trust, but rebuilding hope and it's a constant battle because like every day I wake up, I'm like, is my mom gonna slip? And it's like, I can't have that mindset. All I have to do is like, I trust today.

I'm going to text her, I'm going love her, I'm going to update her on my life, I'm going to see how she's doing. So yeah, it's a constant battle, especially if you're constantly in the person's life that you've been disappointed over and over again.

Joey Pontarelli (49:16)

Okay. No, man. That's good advice. And what I hear you saying is don't be surprised if there's a slip up, like you slip backwards. And then also you can put action in, you can, you know, of course with proper boundaries, you can put the effort in despite if they put maybe the effort in or as much as you want them to put in. And that trust is slowly rebuilt. It's not something that you're going to snap your fingers and it's going to come out like it's going to go back to what it was or be even stronger. takes time. It takes months and years to, you know, build

Yeah, years, yeah, to build that trust that maybe you want to have. What else would you say in terms of final things on this particular topic before we close out the show?

Brandon Allaman (49:54)

Yeah, I mean, just like patience, like being patient and then like trusting yourself, like trusting yourself to like be okay. You know, if they do slip up, like trusting yourself to be okay, to not like cave back into your own hurts and to kind of like get back on the horse, like get back on the horse of still loving them. You know, like trusting yourself that no matter what, you'll still love them.

I think is so important.

Joey Pontarelli (50:25)

Good stuff, man. If you would, tell us about your organization, your apostolate, your ministry. What do you guys offer and how can people find you online? How could they follow you?

Brandon Allaman (50:36)

I run a ministry called Live in You, so it's my body, I have a t-shirt on and I do retreats, talks, and mentorship. So I do a lot of follow-up, so it's not just a one and done retreat or talk. So I go back to the areas, go to like sports, games, plays of the kids from the retreats. I'll go to the youth group, go to, you know, take them out to eat, just to like...

refreshed from the retreat or talk they heard. And then I have a career mentorship program where say a kid wants to be an aerospace engineer, I'll connect them with a virtuous aerospace engineer so they can prepare in college. When they graduate college, they can have a job and trust someone in their field because it's a dog-eat-dog world and we need to uplift people. We need to help people with their passions, careers.

in life. So that's where that's kind of like what I do what the ministry is all about. Like I said, we're big on follow up. It's not just about the events. It's about creating a lasting relationship. And yeah, so I'm on social media, Instagram, YouTube, everything really, but I prefer to be in person. So if you're in a town like I come visit, I go to the Midwest a lot, go all the way to San Diego, Florida.

Texas everywhere so.

Joey Pontarelli (52:06)

nationally. I love it. I love the in-person component because so much is online and it's needed there. But I also love the follow-up too. It's like really cool that you're able to kind of fill that space because so often like, yeah, you're kind of in and out when you're doing this sort of thing. And it's cool that you go back.

Brandon Allaman (52:22)

Yeah, it's a charism of the ministry of living you. It's like we're not better or worse than anyone. That's just our charism. That's just what we're founded on. So we're all in it together.

Joey Pontarelli (52:36)

I love it. And do you do online mentorship too? Like if someone listening right now is like, I'd love to be mentored by Brandon. Is that something you offer? Yeah.

Brandon Allaman (52:44)

I do do that. ⁓ And then we also have, I have a female partner who has a career life stress burnout ministry and she does one-on-one coaching. So she's on my website too. Her name is Anna. So she helps out with the females also. Females want some.

Joey Pontarelli (53:04)

Cool, nice, good stuff man.

Cool, and it's liveinu, so it's livingwithoutthegu.org, right? Cool, good deal. We'll link to all that in the show notes if you guys wanna follow Brandon and check out his channels and everything. Man, it's been good to have you.

Brandon Allaman (53:13)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (53:23)

It's been a great conversation. have a lot of wisdom to offer and I really wish you the best in everything. I hope to collaborate with you more in the future. I wanted to, and thank you so much for everything you've done with getting restored out there. I wanted to say that too, because I know you've been, since the beginning, you've been a big proponent of just getting our resources into young people's hands. So just wanted to say it's been awesome to work with you and partner in that way. Can I? Yeah, please.

Brandon Allaman (53:46)

Can I say something about...

Like, I love your book. I love the title. ⁓ It's Not Your Fault because one of my favorite movies is Good Will Hunting. And if you've seen that movie, the breaking point of that movie is when he says, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. And I just love that book. It gives me chills in that scene is so amazing. So always, always, I think what you're doing is great and so important in today's culture.

society.

Joey Pontarelli (54:17)

I appreciate that man. Yeah, no, you're the man. Thank you. You're doing the hard work of getting out there on the ground with people and then putting the appropriate resource, whether it's mine or someone else's, into their hands, which is so important. So yeah, thank you for that, for the kind words. I couldn't agree more that it's super needed. I want to give you the final word. What final encouragement, advice would you offer to everyone listening, especially maybe to that younger you who's listening right now and maybe struggling and feeling stuck in life?

Brandon Allaman (54:44)

Yeah, I would say like you're important. Like you have a passion. Follow your passion. Follow whatever you've been through. Use it. I'd say like my greatest strength is my weakness. So my greatest strength is my pain is that I don't have a dad is like my relationship with my mom is not great. That's my greatest gift. And I figured out a way to use that as a passion.

So find your passion, could be your pain or could be cars, could be whatever, and live out your dream, live out your passion like you have a purpose, find it, and don't be afraid to live that out. Just do it.

Joey Pontarelli (55:30)

That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

“Should I Ask My Divorced Parents for Relationship Advice?” Live Call In! | 159

To serve you better, we’re trying something new. 

In this episode, I’ll mentor three people live, right here on the show. 

Each of them brings a raw, honest question—things most of us from broken families have wrestled with.

• A college student asks how to heal from his dad’s abandonment—and whether he should leave the door open for a relationship or finally close it.

• A man wonders how he can help young people from broken homes.

• And finally, a woman in her 20s opens up about concerns with her mom’s second marriage, and asks, “Who do I go to now for advice, now that I’m in a relationship myself?”

If you’ve ever felt alone or unsure what to do when faced with problems in your broken family… this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:00)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. To serve you guys better, we're trying something new. In this episode, I'll actually mentor three people live right here on the show.

Each of them brings a really raw and honest question, things that most of us who come from broken families can at least relate to if we haven't struggled with ourselves. For example, a college student asks how to heal from his dad's abandonment and whether he should leave the door open for a relationship or finally close it. A man wonders how he can help young people from broken homes that he sees all around him. And finally, a woman in her 20s opens up about concerns she has with her mom's second marriage and asks, who do I go to for advice now that I'm in a relationship?

Myself so if you can relate to any of that or you've ever felt alone or unsure what to do when faced with problems in your broken family This episode is for you. By the way, if you'd like to come on the show and ask a question I'll tell you how that works at the end But in the meantime, feel free to go to restored ministry dot-com slash ask or click the link in the show notes to submit your question By the way, you'll notice that the guests don't show their face and you don't know their name. You only hear their voice That's intentional. We just want to be really respectful of everyone's kind of

family experiences and the sensitivities around sharing intimate details and so we thought this would be the best most fruitful most respectful way to go about this and so if you were to come on the show it would be the exact same but with that here's our first

hey man tell me a little bit about the problem you're dealing with yeah

Guest 1 (01:37)

My dad has not been present in my life, so from the beginning, he hasn't been there. And especially in my college years, I've started to deal with kind of the pain of, you know, my dad not being around and the effects that that's had on me. I've been kind of trying to like be on this healing journey the last couple of years to try to figure out, you know, like, like kind of deal with like the anger that I felt towards my dad, especially for not being present. And I've kind of talked to my mom about it, but she's someone who's very much like, you know, just kind of like, just like kind of try to move on, like move past it. So like.

Something that was kind of difficult was my last birthday that I had in March. She gave me a birthday gift and she signed it from her and my dad. I had actually talked to my dad recently. He had reached out for my birthday, which was the first time I'd heard from him in a couple years. But he's someone who I've heard from him like a handful of times over the last couple of years. My mom and I have always been the ones to initiate contact. He never initiates. so, and usually when we initiate contact, we'll talk for a couple of days at a time.

send a few emails, if you text back and forth, maybe call. And then after that, it's pretty much radio silence from him. It will even send messages and he just like won't respond for a while. So it's kind of just like radio sounds from him. And so I know that it's very unlikely that my mom managed to reach out to him, establish contact and agree on a gift idea and to have him like be part of that process. So I'm guessing that most likely he put his name on it just to kind of try to like, you know, make me feel better or try to do something for me. But I'm convinced that that's very likely not the case.

And so kind of trying to understand how I can best pursue my healing journey, try to of like heal from like the anger and the wounds of my dad not being present in my life and not wanting to be present, not wanting to be a father in my life. When my mom is kind of still trying to, she's always telling me to kind of like reach out to him and be like, yep, keep that line of connection open. Cause like in case he decides that he wants to be in your life, you don't want to be the one that cuts that off. You want to keep that avenue open, but it's tough cause like he just kind of like.

He'll be there for a little bit, a couple days, and then he'll just not want to contact and not even respond to my messages. And so I'm trying to understand how I can pursue my healing journey when my mom kind has this different way of doing it. And I'm sure there's her own pain and trauma that she has and unpacked, which isn't my responsibility, I know. But I'm trying to understand the best way for me to try to move forward when it seems like she's not really moving forward herself and also trying to keep us connected to him when he doesn't seem to want to be connected.

Joey (03:58)

Thank you for sharing so much and I the first thing I want to say is your anger makes sense the fact that you're bothered by all of this the fact that you You know have struggled to quote-unquote like move on Totally makes sense to me I remember it was a Victor Franco who said an abnormal response to an abnormal situation is normal behavior and you know as you know in other words It's just means something bad happens in your life and you feel bad about it Makes sense like that. That's the right response to it

Guest 3 (04:24)

that

Joey (04:27)

I see your mom's desire. I, it sounds like her intention's good. She wants you to have a relationship with your dad, which is a really good and beautiful thing. But you know, well, that might be a little bit idealistic in this case though. Cause you're faced with the reality of like, well, he doesn't really seem like he wants much to do with me. And you know, you have this pent up anger, which totally makes sense given everything that you've been through. I remember feeling the same way with my dad, just really dealing with a lot of anger and

trying to navigate how we're in a better spot now. But I remember feeling at a time, like the only time he wanted to maybe interact with me and be in my life was when he needed something from me. And that was so frustrating. I just, I didn't want that type of relationship. Like I said, we've gotten to a better spot now. So that's the first thing I just want to say is like your anger makes sense. One of the questions I had was have you ever had like a conversation with your dad or communicated to him the, you know, the disappointment, the resentment, the anger that you feel about everything that's happened and like where your relationship is with him now?

Guest 1 (05:23)

⁓ No, haven't really had that. ⁓ We just like haven't had much conversation period. And so like a lot of the conversations that we've had are just kind of like catching up because I often haven't heard from him in like three, four years at a time, like when I talk to him. And so yeah, and so yeah, so we just haven't had that conversation of that level like at all.

Joey (05:44)

No, that totally makes sense. Do you feel like you talking to him about those things is an important step or do you think that that's something that would maybe do more harm than good? ⁓

Guest 1 (05:54)

⁓

I think there's a possibility it would do more harm than good. ⁓ The reason I say that is just because I think another kind of significant component of this is that my parents are both from East Africa and so there are definitely some cultural kind of differences there. And so one thing is I've talked to my mom, had conversations with my mom about how I feel about this. And I definitely like in their culture, they have this big culture of just kind of like not dealing with emotion so much and not just kind of like stuffing stuff down, but kind of just like getting over things.

and just kind of pushing forward because there's always a need. Yeah, and so I think there's like the kind of this idea of just like, yeah, like if there's something that's like difficult, it's like you just kind of deal with it and move on. Like you either try to make it work or if it doesn't work, you just kind of deal with it and move on. And so part of that, I think is just how my mom has responded to the situation where like my dad chose to leave. And so she just kind of had to deal with it and move on. Of course, she had emotions to do it like to like figure out, but like she just kind of had to deal with it and move on. So that should be because she had a child to raise, which is me. But yeah, I just kind of feel like that.

leaves us in a spot where I think if I were to talk to him about it, don't think there'd be a conversation where I would be able to find more closure or find more explanation for what he did, but it would kind of just be justification and just kind of like, well, this isn't really a problem because you've lived for 21 years at this point and there hasn't been a problem, so there shouldn't be a problem now. And so it's something that doesn't need to be talked about because it kind of should have just been dealt with because like...

The problem has just always been there. So you kind of just deal with it this point and just kind of move on instead of trying to rehash things that are like 20 years in the past.

Joey (07:28)

No, I totally hear what you're saying and I think a lot of people take that approach to life like you said where it's like They don't really take time to like grieve things like traumas injuries things that were like lost They instead just focus on like the next thing and the next thing and the next thing I heard the analogy once in another podcast of like swimming So if you imagine like a woman with long hair swimming in water As long as she keeps moving like the hair will just kind of flow behind her it will never actually catch up with her

But once she stops moving, then all of the muck, all the dirt, all the trauma, the past will catch up with her. And I think for a lot of people that could be like terrifying, that could be overwhelming. One of the things that I believe though, is that those experiences that we have in life, ⁓ stay with us, right? The past isn't the past, the past lives in the present. And so, you know, that all that is like lodged in our subconscious, it impacts the way that we think, the way that we act, the way that we feel.

And so often it can leave us stuck in whether it's bad habits, struggling with our emotions and relationships, like all the things. And so I think if we don't address it and we don't revisit those really painful wounds, those memories from the past, then it can actually inhibit our growth. And so that whole mindset of like, you know, just move on, forget about it, let time do its thing. You know, maybe that's helpful in some like lesser serious situations, but in things like this, your parents getting divorced, your dad.

Essentially neglecting you and abandoning you like I don't I don't want to be too hard on him But at the same time it's like like you deserved a dad who was there for you who was present who could Mentor you and guide you like the dad that like every child is supposed to have and when that's taken from you That's a very serious loss, right? And I'm not trying to sound patronizing at all. It's for all of us It's like you deserve to have that you deserve a mom and a dad who loved each other who stayed together who had

you know, healthy relationship who modeled love for you and that was taken from you. And that had, you know, consequences, which I'm sure, you if we could talk forever, there's probably a lot of things in your life that ⁓ were broken and that went wrong because of that. And so that's just the first thing I just want to affirm you and like, yeah, I think it's wise to deal with this so that when you go on and build your own family and build your own marriage, this stuff isn't still there in the same way. It's going to be there.

Unfortunately, to some extent, because you're always going to have your mom and your dad and note your life to some degree, I imagine. But I think it's so important that we need to go back and dig up these things. So specifically to your question about like your own healing journey, what I'm hearing from you, man, is that

This is such a big stumbling block for you that unless some action is taken to resolve this, it's gonna constantly be in the back of your mind and popping up. And so one thing I would recommend that other people have found helpful, and you'll need to think about this and figure out what to do, is perhaps writing a letter. ⁓ Maybe you've tried this. Have you tried writing your dad a letter or even your mom a letter about it? No. So it's a simple tactic where, and I did this with my dad, where you just write out everything that you're feeling.

Everything that if you could say it to him and if it were to be received well, you would want to say. And you know, it looks different for every person, but you you're essentially expressing a few things. One, you're leading with your intention. So you're saying, here is why I'm writing this letter. Okay. And by the way, you don't always have to send this letter. You don't always have to deliver it to him. It might just be something that you do to get out of your, you know, off your chest, out of your mind. So that's the first thing like lead with your intention. Oh, dear dad, here's why I'm writing this letter.

The second thing is ⁓ to just be honest and I would say start with the problem and maybe even call out the ways in which you think he might react. I totally understand that this might make you feel defensive. I totally get that your reaction might be to justify yourself. Call that out because when you call that out, what often happens according to experts like Chris Voss, he was an FBI negotiator, he was really great at talking through situations where there was a lot of conflict because he was getting hostages out of...

dangerous situations. He says when you put into words what people are feeling or what they're probably going to do, it tends to disarm them and make them less likely to do that thing. And so I'd call it out there. And then I would just express from your point of view, be like, this is my experience. This is what I felt. This is what I went through. And I know maybe you're thinking like, well, you're fine. You made it. You're a healthy person. Things in life seem to be going well for you. But here's what it cost me. Here are all the different ways in which I struggled over the years.

Not just the bad things, you can mention the bad things that happened, the divorce, the abandonment, but also the good things that you never had because he wasn't in your life, because the divorce happened, because all these different things. And you can just list those out. Literally you can make bullet points of like, it cost me this, it hurt me in this way, it damaged me in that way. And this is not done necessarily to express blame, but just to share like, this is what I went through, this is all the ways it hurt me. And then from there,

You might not be ready for this and that's okay. You can get to a point where you say, and I forgive you. And I know like I feel like I want you to pay me back to make up for all the bad that you have done, but I'm choosing to forgive you, releasing you of this debt. you know, one of the ways, one of the things I did with my dad is I said, you know, I want a good relationship with you, but I will not, you know, I won't force that on you. could say, I only want that if you want that too. And here's what that might look like.

Or here are some of the conditions, you can put some boundaries in place and say, here are some of the conditions that would need to be true if we were to have a relationship. And then, you know, give him the freedom. You know, you could even say like, you don't have to write me back if you want to. Maybe show him, tell him what you want him to do in response if he wants to communicate. Like a face-to-face conversation, you know, too much, let's say.

So maybe it's a letter, an email, something like that that he might wanna say to you. So anyway, that's like the exercise of writing the letter and you could type it out and then write it out. You can do whatever you want to. And then it's up to you to discern. Like is this gonna do more harm than good? Is this something that I can just put on paper, maybe share with a mentor, a spiritual director, a friend, kind of expressing getting all this off my chest. Your mom might not be the right person to share this with.

and then leave it at that because that was even a healing exercise in itself or is it something that I want to mail to him or email him as well? So how are you feeling about that?

Guest 1 (13:41)

Yeah, I think when you said letter I was worried because I was like I don't think I can send him something but just writing it I think would definitely be a game changer something that I haven't tried that I'd be really willing to try for sure.

Joey (13:52)

Do you have people in your life who can mentor you, like a mentor, a spiritual director, someone like that, who you could talk through this situation with and maybe share the letter and the contents of the letter with? ⁓

Guest 1 (14:03)

⁓

Yeah, I think my confirmation sponsor, he's a pretty good guy. We haven't talked about this very much, but I mean, I think he'd definitely hear me out though. And he'd be willing to sit down and talk about it.

Joey (14:16)

Okay, that's a great idea. And the reason I say that is because one of the things I think that can be dangerous for those of us who had fathers who were absent and neglected us is that we could try to go through life alone. And I'm not saying you did this. I think it's just a good reminder for all of us that we need other men in our life to father us. need other men. We need God to father us, but we need other men in our life who can walk with us and kind of fill the absence of a father. And in my life, I've had so many amazing

men especially who have just walked with me, sometimes just for a season. Maybe I'm not in close contact with them anymore, but they're there to guide me through the challenges I'm facing. They're there to just love and affirm me as a man. And there's just something so helpful and healing about that. go, again, nothing wrong with going to your friends, but there's something different, as I'm sure you know, to going to someone who's a little bit older and wiser and saying like, hey, here's the situation. Here's how I feel about it. Here's what I'm trying to discern if I should send this letter or not.

These are all the ways in which, you my dad hurt me and I want to find closure. want to find healing. I want to move on from this. want to, you one day become a dad myself. I wouldn't know whatever the case is for you. And I want to make sure I don't repeat this. And so I want to really find some closure here. So that, that's just one exercise I would recommend. And I think, you know, mentors are such a key to healing. What, one final thing I just, that just came to mind. Um, if it comes to a point where your dad, you know, just has no interest in a relationship with you and doesn't acknowledge the pain and

Justifies everything and just you know, maybe even blames your mom or even you in some cases I would just be prepared for that, you know and just be prepared for like you said That's probably what would happen if I were to have this conversation with him To be prepared for that and just know that that says way more about him that it does about you and the reality of the situation ⁓ He's just probably acting out of hurt and he's just saying things that make him feel better and are probably it's probably too heavy for him in some ways

to just acknowledge all the ways in which he harmed you. And so just be ready for that reaction. And if that is the reaction, my encouragement would be to just, again, take it to a mentor, give it to God, and just entrust that, hey, obviously this door has closed. This relationship is not gonna be a thing. In fact, if it comes to a point where you say, you know what, if he wants to contact me and pursue a relationship with me, I'm open to that. And I would recommend communicating this at some point, but I'm not gonna, you

Proactively try to have a relationship with him if he just kind of writes me off and neglects me and doesn't call for three Like that's those are clear signs that he's just not super interested And so while I applaud your mom's desire for you to have a man in your life and have a relationship with your dad It's okay for you to have boundaries with him and say you know what this relationship isn't going anywhere And you know if he doesn't want to repair it He doesn't want to make it better that I'm gonna take my attention my focus my energy my time

Guest 3 (16:45)

years.

Joey (17:06)

and put that into relationships like a mentor relationship, who can really help me grow and who I can have like that good father figure. Does that help?

Guest 1 (17:14)

That didn't make sense, yeah. This has been great.

Joey (17:16)

Will you stay in touch and let me know how it goes? Sure. Awesome, man. Good to talk with you. This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 430 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles.

Guest 1 (17:18)

Yeah, I can definitely do that for

Joey (17:43)

He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado, and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny.

The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Blackstone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it. Hey man, how can I help?

Guest 3 (18:27)

⁓ I came from, you know, my parents were divorced and what I'm finding out is I am still meeting people that are either talking about divorce or they're actually divorced. usually what I key in then, you know, they have children and you know, how's that affecting the children? You what are they going through? I know of one young boy, I think he was like eight, nine years old, he was at school and

So their parents were having problems talking about divorce. So he's in school, he's on a playground set and he falls off the playground set and breaks his arm. And then he lied about it. You know what I'm Well, he got pushed off or whatever. But the truth was that he just kind of did it himself. so I don't know if he was acting out. But anyway, that was one incident. There was another family that actually went through divorce and the child

quit eating and was becoming very thin. And so this was was happening with somebody, a grandparent, the child and the parent lived somewhere else. But the grandparent was concerned, you know, what was going on with the child. I would, you know, pull out your book. And I say, you know, and I would I would loan the book out. And that's about the only response I had how they whatever happened after that, I don't know.

But I just would like to help other people and would like to know how do you approach people in those kinds of situations? How do you approach children in those kind of situations?

Joey (20:06)

Yeah, no, it's a great question. And man, I, I'm not surprised by hearing all the struggles that you described. I know you know, well, we both come from a similar background that, you know, it's really common for children of divorce to struggle in a lot of the ways that you mentioned, even have more health problems and people who come from intact families, which is wild. If you guys aren't aware of that, check out, there's research ⁓ from Dr. Paul Amato at Penn State from Dr. Judith Wallerstein at UC Berkeley. A lot of other researchers have looked into this stuff. And so all these negative effects,

totally makes sense. yeah, it kind of sounds like the question maybe is in two parts, if that's okay. One would be how do we maybe help a parent or someone help a young person from a broken family? So maybe a little bit of a different approach. And then how do we directly help someone from a broken family? Because I know in some cases, you know, like we're talking, if it's a child and you're maybe not in a position of authority, you might not be able to like interact or help them directly. But like you said, there can be huge help given to like mom or dad or whoever is in a position of authority there.

so that they can do their best to support, love, assist that kid. But then there's other cases where I'm sure you're interacting with young people who ⁓ need to help themselves and you're in a position to maybe be a bit of a mentor or to guide them through some things. So I'd love to dive into that. Maybe let's go with how to help the parent first or the person in authority and then we'll go back to young person themselves. So I think the first thing I've seen with a lot of parents that they need to hear is that we need to just acknowledge

how harmful, hurtful, damaging is a strong word, a divorce can be for a young person. There's this narrative in our culture that kids are resilient, that they'll be fine, that it's not that big of a deal, that everyone's happier, and that's simply not true. It's not research backed. If you actually read the studies, we recently finished reviewing over 100 peer reviewed studies on this topic. We're gonna be publishing a book.

with those studies in it so you guys can have it and have a quick reference for it. But keep an eye on that for in the future. But all these studies show that, especially in low conflict families where there's not like abuse and the threat of death or danger, things like that, the kids do worse off after a divorce than before the divorce. And so I think like parents, that's the first point, which I know you know well, but I think so often we need to help parents kind of see that reality. There's a recent study that came out.

that studied children of divorce for like 30 years. And it studied, think it was like hundreds of thousands of them, a huge data pool. And so when you see, and that came from the US census by the way, we'll link to the study ⁓ in the show notes so you guys can check that out for yourselves. So often we see someone struggle, like maybe a parent who just doesn't recognize how harmful damaging divorce can be for their kids. And we say, hey, you should see this differently. Here's something you should read or do or whatever.

to understand that it's damaging. And the person might just like dig their heels in and be like, no, like all of us have a resistance to anyone telling us what we should do. Anyone telling us, you you should do this, we'll often get that response. And so, you know, a more tactful approach where you build the relationship and maybe ask some questions around like, you know, I noticed that they're struggling with this, you know, that situation where you said what the kid fell off the, you know, fell off the playground, broke their arm. The other kid who, you know, was just getting physically like thin and

not eating enough and maybe ask some questions around that particular pain point. And then the best is possible, especially through questions. I love using questions, try to lead them to the conclusion that do you think this has anything to do with the divorce? And again, so often I've seen a lot of parents, ⁓ once they connect the dots, once they recognize it, they're like, my gosh, I didn't realize it. Now I have all these stories, I have all these studies that show me this. I think there is certainly a connection here.

There are some parents I think who are obstinate and it might be a little bit more difficult to get through to them because for one reason or another, it's really hard for them to swallow that no, my actions or the action of me and my spouse would have any sort of negative effect on them. And so I think that's the approach, like build the relationship, get in a position, a little bit of a position in an influence, and then try to make a suggestion that, this might have something to do with the divorce. And in that case, if then they maybe open up, then you can maybe give them my book like you said, or,

give them Primal Loss, that book where that tells stories of children of divorce, or maybe offer them something like a study or two if they're more data driven to see like, hey, you know, this is a just some more information for you to consider as you're trying to solve this problem that is pretty pressing for you. What do think? Yeah.

Guest 3 (24:35)

definitely resonates. I just feel for these kids because I haven't gone through it. My heart breaks for them. But also too, I don't want to overstep my boundaries either. I want to take them and love on them, but I know that a lot of times that's not going to happen.

Joey (24:57)

On that note though, I'm glad you mentioned that and I'm the same. When I see especially little kids who they're going through a lot of messiness at home, whether it's just dysfunction or usually it's a divorce that I see, my goodness, my heart just drops into my stomach. It's like, ⁓ my goodness, this is so painful to watch these little kids go through especially. I mean of any age, but especially that. It just brings me back to when I went through my parents' divorce and so definitely.

I don't want them ever to have to go through that. And if they do, don't want them to go through it alone. That's what, you know, drives a lot of what I do. But I think there might even be a space, depending on how well, you you know, the parents to even perhaps offer to step in as a mentor. I think that's a really powerful thing to do. I don't know about you, but my, mentors I've had in my life have been hugely transformative for me. Like, I think it's been the most healing and helpful thing by far. Like I've read good books, I've consumed good content.

That was really helpful. In fact, I kind of consider that mentorship from the author or the person I heard speak or the podcast I listened to, I consider that mentorship too. But I think something about in-person mentorship can be so good. So there was a mom, I might have told this story elsewhere in the podcast, but there was a mom who came to me and she was saying, hey, Joey, my daughter is really struggling because of my husband and I getting a divorce and I want to help her.

but she's not really open to me helping her. She doesn't really wanna talk to me about it, which I've seen a lot, by the way, everyone. Often, the kids don't wanna talk to mom or dad about the situation at home. They need a third party to talk to. so, I can't recall if she was going to therapy or not. so, basically, what we brainstormed together was maybe it would be good to approach someone in her life that she is close to, like a teacher or a coach. Those are the two people we came down to.

⁓ who can just kind of take her under their wing and you know just be there when she needs it and not necessarily having these big heavy conversations all the time but being there when she needs it maybe just like you know keeping an eye on her and so we decided that it was the coach who would be maybe a good fit and so the plan was that the mom was gonna Approach the coach and be okay, you know, this is what's going on at home. I to be really transparent with you

these are the ways in which I've seen my daughter struggle. And I just want to make sure she's supported and knows she has someone to talk to because she's not really open to talking to me. Would you be open to that? That was the plan. And then from there, you know, maybe the coach and the student, the young person would, you know, develop a little bit more of relationship. They already had one and then perhaps it would turn into sort of a mentorship thing. So that was just one idea. So I love that idea. And I think, you know, what some people have done in these mentorship situations is take something like a book.

You know, it's my book or not, a book like on divorce and like walk through it with someone. That's one idea. you know, even as simple as I've, you know, sitting down for coffee or going out and doing this or that. But, you know, of course, if it's a young person getting the permission of the parents, the resources that we have for parents, there's a few. So we have a PDF guide. It just has like 10 tips for not just parents, but anyone who wants to help someone who comes from a broken family. So, you know, you could.

potentially give this to them to say, hey, here's some content I found helpful. ⁓ I thought it might help in this situation. No pressure to read it, but here's this PDF that has some good stuff. It's just a few pages. It'll take you so many minutes to read it. That's one idea. So that's one resource. We'll link to that in the show notes. The second one is we actually a whole course for free that we offer. It's like a two hour course broken into three to five minute videos on this very topic, like how to help someone who comes from a broken home.

Guest 1 (28:25)

We have.

Joey (28:37)

whether you're a teacher, a parent, a coach, you know, some person in position of authority, some kind of a leader, or you just care for someone like maybe your nephew, your niece, someone like that, you know, a friend that you see, then you could take that course. You can learn some of the research behind, you know, divorce, like how divorce affects the children, and then get some tactics that we offer on like how to best assist them and help them. So those are the two resources I would say totally free.

something that we've got a lot of great feedback on. So those are the two tangible resources I would recommend that you could potentially send their way with their permission. Does that sound helpful?

Guest 3 (29:11)

Yeah, it did. I had coaches in my past that, like you just mentioned, coaches in my past that took me under their wing. It really impacted my life.

Joey (29:20)

To hit on the second question, I'll try to be concise here. When it comes to like directly helping a young person who comes from a broken family, there's obviously a lot at play. The context matters, like what's going on? What are they struggling with? What's your relationship to them? But assuming you have a relationship, maybe they're 18 or you least have their parents permission to help them if they're younger or they're related, whatever, then I think the first thing is similar to what I said about the parents. It's just like acknowledging the hurt, acknowledging the harm.

It's kind of wild. seems so simple. It's like, that even do any good? Is that even that helpful? ⁓ but it really is, especially again, in a world where things, whenever we talk about divorce, it's either sugar coated, you know, or we minimize other people's pain and be like, there's nothing wrong here. Like you have two homes and twice as many Christmas presents. It's like, not, helpful. And so when we just call divorce, what it is like, it's a tragedy.

It's a trauma. It's a really painful, hard thing to go through. And you you and I can speak from experience, like, hey, we've been through our parents divorce ourselves, like we get it. And even if the young person I found like, isn't maybe fully aware of how impactful that has been on them, because maybe they're young and they haven't seen the full effects play out, which is what the research says. You don't really see the full effects play out until you're an adult. Typically you can still maybe talk about just, Hey, this is hard. I'm giving you empathy. I'm giving you acknowledgement. And that's, think the starting point.

From there, what I found, especially with younger people, they might not have the full capacity, like process and heal from all this stuff. Like I'm thinking teenagers in high school, especially early high school, especially maybe end of middle school. And so I think in those cases, they often just need to be loved and supported and maybe taught to deal with their pain in healthy ways. And there's no better way to teach that than by modeling it, than saying, hey, here's what I do when I'm hurting, when I'm suffering, when I'm in pain.

⁓ and cause I think what's so often happens, this is what happened with me, man. It was, was in a lot of pain. I didn't have anyone really watching over me. felt pretty neglected by my parents, even though they didn't intend that dad was out of the house. Mom was just so overwhelmed and busy trying to do everything, doing both roles that, ⁓ that, I was off with people I shouldn't have been hanging out with. I was, you know, just getting into the wrong things and just feeling, you know, feeling a lot of pain. And so I think if there's someone who can like help you avoid those landmines.

that is extremely valuable because a lot of bad things happen. You know, I fell into pornography, I fell into like other, you know, bad habits, sexual sin, things like that. And that's really had an impact on my life. And so, you know, I think if you can avoid kind of play a little bit of like, you're just helping them survive, you're helping them get by. And then once they get to a place where they have more breathing room and they're able to kind of process it and have more maturity, then maybe that's when you go deeper with them and help them find some healing and hopefully, you know, rewire the bad habits or anything that.

they've fallen into, I think that's the place to start. And the final thing I would say is, for anyone listening who maybe you have a good marriage, invite them into your home if it's appropriate. And if it's not, then maybe try to arrange or coordinate for them to spend time with a good, healthy marriage and family. And no family's perfect. I'm not saying you have to be a perfect family to do this. Every family has stuff. Every family has some level of dysfunction, I would argue. But there's a difference between one that's mostly healthy and one that's like,

really dysfunctional. And so I would say I think it's such a beautiful thing. It was just so helpful and healing for me to just spend time around, you know, healthy marriages and families. were two marriages that were just so impactful for me. I remember just loving to going over to their house as a teenager. remember, you know, going to the ⁓ Cheatham's house and just seeing, you know, the way that they acted as a family, seeing the way that mom and dad talked to each other, even when they disagreed and just how there was just so much joy. There was a lot of peace that was, you know, very different than that.

certain seasons of my family. And then the Kellers as well, another family that I just admired so much, like the love that they had, the romance that they kept alive. That was just really beautiful. And so, you know, someone could read that in a book, ⁓ they can hear about it, but there's something about being in the presence of that, that just, there's no replacement. And so that's the other thing that we often will suggest. It's like, man, if there's a way to kind of take them under your wing, have them over for a meal.

invite them to come over to like, you know, help you with a project around the house, whatever it looks like, get them involved a little bit in your family. doesn't need to be constant, but if you did that, you know, a couple of times a month, I think that would be a really impactful thing to help a young person. Then again, we're kind of just there keeping the door open when they do have a problem or they do want to talk because I found that, you know, again, with a lot of young people, you kind of have to earn their trust. You have to open that door.

And then once they see like, you're not going anywhere, you're trustworthy, you're someone who kind of gets my pain and you've made it clear like, hey, you I don't want to pressure you at all, but whenever you're ready to talk, like I'm here for you. If you ever want to talk, I'm here for you. Then they know like, oh, I have someone to go to. Cause I think a lot of young people today feel like they have no one to go to and they just go online and they find people to, you know, friends to guide them or other people to guide them that might not actually be as helpful. I mean, it could even be really harmful. And so, so that's one thing.

So yeah, just a few ideas there I guess to help. Is that helpful?

Guest 3 (34:31)

That was helpful. My own experience had a big brother. So talk about once a month, we met at least twice a month. And ⁓ anyway, I was able to see a happy marriage and how they interacted with each other. Something I didn't have at home. just I had a mom at home. So, you know, they were divorced when I was five. So it was it was mom. There was no dad. So I didn't know how to interact with a man.

And so I had the big brother, but also, you know, some of that was that I got to see a healthy marriage. helped me, ⁓ you know, now that I got married, I think it really helped me to know how I was supposed to you know, and behave and, you know, what my role was, all that. It wasn't though, I mean, I don't want to go into foreign death, but I wish I had had ⁓ the Bibles they have out now and it could have flipped.

to what God intended for marriage and how a husband is supposed to treat a wife and a wife is supposed to treat a husband. I wish I'd have had that heads up a long time ago. My marriage is solid. I married a beautiful woman. Those kinds of things. I had a King James version and didn't understand it. I'm a visual learner and I'm like, I don't understand what they're trying to say.

It was not a resource for me. However, the Bibles these days have theologians notes and if you don't understand it, can look at the theologians notes. How do you apply it in your life? But the big one I got, the first thing I got was like, oh, as a husband, I have these responsibilities. This is how God intended for a husband to act and behave. This is how a wife is supposed to act and behave and how children are supposed to act and behave.

had that when I started out in marriage, that would have solved a lot of my issues as well.

Joey (36:33)

That's beautiful though that you either at least

trying to do it and eventually got the help you needed. I'm with you there. yeah, just in closing, I think it's just, it's such a powerful and beautiful thing that you came from what you did and you've built what you have in your marriage. That's really beautiful. think there's a lot of people who I know I felt this way, who feels like that's unattainable for them. It feels like it's impossible. you prove that it's not. Okay, real talk. If you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally, but nothing is working, you're not crazy.

I've been there myself. recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people and it was really helpful for me personally. In the guide, he breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make like under eating, over stressing, or focusing too much on the scale and he gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use that you can implement today. And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need.

to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally. Hey, how could I help to?

Guest 3 (37:40)

So kind of the question that I have for right now is should I bring up the dysfunctional patterns that I'm seeing specifically in my mom's second marriage? So just for context, I'm in my late 20s and my parents got divorced in my late teens. They had been married all my life before then. They got remarried to other people about two years after they divorced and kind of throughout their marriages, I noticed

kind of a lot of the dysfunctional patterns that they had in their first marriage with each other kind of continuing in their second marriage, but I would never really comment on it very much. Maybe I just didn't feel like it was my place or didn't want to get involved. But a few months ago, my dad had mentioned to me that he was getting divorced from his second wife. So I feel like that makes me feel like my concerns about their dysfunctional patterns are...

in a way more legitimate, and so I'm wondering if I should bring up the concerns that I still have about my mom's second marriage to her, since it's very much something that bothers me enough to the point that I'll talk about it with my friends or other family, but not necessarily to my parents. And I think also considering that some of these things, like since I don't live with my parents anymore, are things that I might hear from.

my sister who still lives with them or are things that I just see in passing when I go back to visit. So I guess my question is just wondering, like, should I bring these things up to them or how should I go about bringing those up to my parents? And also kind of a secondary question. Since I'm now starting my own relationship ⁓ in the last few months, I guess how should I go about

that dynamic of well of my parents kind of giving me advice with my first relationship as I'm seeing these things in their own relationship.

Guest 3 (39:34)

Great question.

Joey (39:36)

First, you know, can relate to so much what you're saying and I definitely get your concern for your parents. I admire that actually. My parents haven't remarried and so I haven't been through that exact scenario but I've walked with a lot of people who have and so I'm happy to share whatever I can and definitely have been in a scenario like you described where you see things in your parents' lives that make you worry. And so I think the first question I guess I had for you was...

Like what's the outcome you're hoping for? Like let's say you have that conversation with your mom. Like what do you hope that she does with that?

Guest 3 (40:08)

I mean, preferably-

Guest 3 (40:09)

⁓

what I would hope is that she could take that information and try to make improvements, but I feel like ultimately it comes to me wondering if I have like this duty of if I have this thing that bothers me enough that I'm bringing it to other people, does that then mean that I have a responsibility to bring it to like my mom herself?

Guest 3 (40:31)

Great question.

Joey (40:32)

One other question just to clarify too, let's say you do have this conversation with her, what's the percentage likelihood, you know, if you're just shooting from the hip, that it goes well and that maybe she takes in what you're saying? Like, do you think it's something so low, like 5 % or is there a pretty good likelihood that, yeah, I think she would at least listen to me and hear what I have to say.

Guest 3 (40:51)

To be honest with my mom, I feel like there actually would be a good chance she would listen to it. Unlike my dad, who feel like seemed to be lot more closed off to feedback in that way.

Guest 3 (41:04)

Okay

Joey (41:05)

That sense. And the reason I say that is because similar with your dad, ⁓ my dad has, you know, in certain seasons been like that. We're in a better spot today than we were in the past, but there were times especially where he just would not, would not have landed well. He wouldn't have received it well. And the effort of, you know, putting forth to like have that hard conversation like we're talking about would have been pretty fruitless and might have even backfired. And so I think it's important that we kind of use a little bit of judgment to say, it going to probably go well or probably go like very poorly kind of make an assessment there. So now we know that, okay,

She's heading down this dark path. You want to say something to hopefully help her get help or at least become aware of, you know, what's going on. And, know, maybe she can fix the destructive patterns, the really dysfunctional patterns that you're seeing. So I think that the first thing is like, you know, broaching the topic with her at all. So do you have the type of relationship with her where you could have these kinds of deeper conversations or do you guys usually stay more in the surface?

Guest 3 (41:56)

this.

Guest 3 (41:56)

Typically

on the surface, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily completely out of the ordinary to talk about topics like this.

Guest 3 (42:05)

Okay.

Joey (42:05)

And have you broached this topic at all? I don't think you had, if I remember right from what we discussed, but have you ever brought

Guest 3 (42:11)

this

up.

Guest 3 (42:12)

I mean the most I can remember was maybe concerns before she got married about why I had concerns about her getting remarried in the first place, but since then I don't think I've really brought up much of the concerns I had about her marriage to her.

Joey (42:26)

And that makes sense because I'm sure you were doing that out of respect. You didn't want to overstep, but now you're saying like, well, if dad's went down this path, I'm scared that mom's going to go down this path too. Okay, great. All he can say is like, if I was in your shoes, this is probably what I would do. And then you see, you know, what fits and we can discuss that. I would probably try to cut out like some time and space to talk with her one-on-one, whether that's going to a coffee shop, sitting down at home. And the way that I like to approach these topics with really anyone, whether it's my parents or someone else is you could either text them or call them, whatever's normal for you.

ask them in person like, you know, I have something I'd really like to talk to you about. It's kind of a heavy topic. Like, you know, would you be open to, you know, going on a walk or heading to a coffee shop, you know, on Friday around, you know, 4pm or 3pm, whatever it is, whenever you can go. And obviously they're going to be really curious, like, what do you want to talk to me about? And you could perhaps mention a little bit of the topic, but you don't need to give them the whole thing. How would that go over, do you think, with her?

Guest 3 (43:20)

I mean, I think that would be okay. The main thing I'm thinking about is just how to achieve that dynamic considering that I live out of state and maybe will visit every few months or so. If I should just wait until I go back home, if I should wait until I see something and bring it up then, but I guess from what I'm hearing, maybe whenever I go back home next, I might try and arrange that.

Joey (43:44)

Yeah. And I think either could work. I think doing, you know, a FaceTime call, a zoom call, whatever can totally work. And it, you know, there's a little bit of a judgment call on your part of like, how urgent do feel this is? If you feel like, you know, it's really urgent and you have to do it now, even if the video calls a little less effective. Cause I think we'd probably both agree doing something in person typically is better, but

If you can't do that in person, then doing it virtually I think works just as well. But you had a second part to your question. Does that kind of satisfy the first part? Did you want to go into that anymore?

Guest 3 (44:14)

No, I think that does satisfy the first part. And I believe the second part was kind of like considering that with all this going on that a few months ago also I just started my first relationship. wondering, I guess considering that I have concerns about, you know, how my parents are with their own relationships, how should I go about getting advice from them regarding my current relationship?

Guest 3 (44:40)

Great question.

Joey (44:42)

I

think there's two ways to answer it. On one end, people have the perspective, like never take advice from someone who hasn't been where you want to go. So don't go to a poor person asking them how to be wealthy. Don't go to someone who's completely out of shape and ask them how to be fit. You want to go to people who've done what you want to do in order to learn how they did it. So if you see someone, anyone, even I know we're talking about your parents here, who has really unhealthy relationships, and you want

your romantic relationship to be healthy, they might not be the best people to learn from. And I don't say that with harshness against them. In fact, they might even say that to you if you were to have like a really honest conversation with them. ⁓ But that's one perspective. So the question becomes then, who do you go to? And that's when I think it's really, really key. What I found really helpful, and a lot of people that I've talked with through Resort have found this helpful too, find a family that you admire.

that you would wanna emulate. You want your marriage to be like their marriage, spend time with them. Which sounds simple, but I think there's sometimes some struggles to get to that point. But that's what I would say. And for me, there were two couples, I just loved being with their family, I loved being with them. They really were an inspiration for me, because I really doubted that love could last. Especially after my parents' marriage ended, I was like this, even if marriage and love is good for a time.

I'm like, eventually it's going to fall apart. Like I do not want anything to do with that then. But in time, you know, when I saw these really beautiful couples who they didn't have perfect relationships, but he had really healthy relationships and they really happy relationships, happy marriages. I was like, man, I want that. And just by observing their, their marriage, the way they interact it, the way they disagree, the way that they, you know, would ask questions and just, you know, look at each other and like all the little things it even kind of created a little bit of an example to follow.

It was almost like a little bit of an apprenticeship in love, which I think is really beautiful. So I think that's like really great. can be hard to find those families because there's not a ton of like really thriving, great, healthy families, depending on what circles you run in. But I found across the board, it's hard to find them. And so do you know, do you have anyone in mind who might be able to be kind of that mentor family for you?

Guest 3 (46:58)

I mean

Guest 3 (46:59)

people up until now while I might ask my parents some things I do have some cousins that I might go to for advice about certain things and then also because I'm living in a different city same as my boyfriend who lives here we do have like different maybe members at church who we can go to for advice or like things like that.

Joey (47:21)

I love that. And I love that you mentioned church. think that's a great way to find these sort of mentors. ⁓ I know for me too, I found them through different relationships. Like I remember some of my professors at school, I got along with them while I looked up to them. They seemed to have really good families. So would try to ask them advice. So I think, yeah, that's great. And one of the things I would advise there, and I'm glad you have people in your corner, but if there's a family who you maybe admire at church or somewhere else, you know, start by getting to know them maybe at church.

you know, say hi to them, ask, you know, ask obviously how they're doing, things like that. And then if you can, you know, there's a couple ways to approach it. One is to like, maybe ask for you to ask like the mom, the woman to say, you know, Hey, ⁓ I really admire you and your family. I, ⁓ I'd love to get some advice for you. Would you be open to like, you know, sitting down and having coffee sometime? That's it. So you build that relationship with like the mom and then maybe over time, you know, you kind of build a relationship with the family.

where you can go over and you can maybe help out with a project around the house. You can maybe babysit the kids or do something like that. Go over for dinner, maybe even bring dinner, something like that, where you're of just spending time in their presence. like, honestly, for me, that was just incredibly helpful and healing. I don't think I'd be married today for over seven years now, if it wasn't for those families that I mentioned. I really believe that. And so I think this is like, it can be so, so helpful, at least was for me.

And so that's it. it's, and you know, think finding out how to be helpful, families have busy lives. They don't have a lot of time and space for like extra things, but people don't mind giving advice. People like giving advice. And so sitting down with someone like that, I think it'd be really good. And then maybe even, you know, trying to have a meal or something like that with them. And then in time, you know, once you get that level of comfort, perhaps I don't, you know, you don't have to go down this route. You can maybe even ask the married couple to like mentor you to kind of help you guys as a couple. Maybe you meet with them once a month or something like that.

And you just bring to them the reality of your relationships. Like, hey, here's our relationship. Here's where we're strong, here's where we're weak. This is where we want to go and whatever. This is maybe some of the things that are keeping us from getting married or whatever. And my wife and I did that and it was really helpful. We had a mentor who knew everything about our relationship and he was able to guide us and even help us figure out if we were the right fit to get married. And so I think that's really, really helpful.

I know it's like a lot of steps to get to that point. So, you know, I would recommend if there's someone at church who you admire, you look up to, just try to get to know them more, grab coffee and see where it goes. What do you think about that?

Guest 3 (49:54)

I think that sounds helpful because I think up until now the issue that I've been running into is that I have people but I haven't had that level of closeness where I felt comfortable say going to them rather than going to my parents who I felt like were people who knew me quite well.

Joey (50:11)

And there's nothing wrong with that. And that was the second part of the answer, which I want to get to in a second. But first, I totally get that. And I think it is a little bit of a leap because not everyone will be open to it. I don't think you're going to, especially if you're approaching some of that church, they're probably going to be cordial and likely going to be, ⁓ you know, open to having a coffee and, having a chat. It takes a little bit of vulnerability. And I know for me growing up, vulnerability wasn't something that was like, you know, I could tell you.

it seems like you're a vulnerable person, like you're able to open up to people and that's great. For me, it wasn't like that. I felt like in my family, we kept things kind of safe and on the surface. And so having the conversations where you're of like opening your heart up was not a normal thing. Eventually it became more normal because my siblings and I would do it and we had friends who kind of influenced that and it was really good, but it wasn't a normal thing. So I actually had to learn how to do that. I had to learn how to approach people and be like, hey,

I'd love to get your advice. And again, people love giving advice. So when you say that, use that word advice, there's actually research on this that, from Robert Cialdini, who studied like influence, he says, if you ask people for advice, like you actually will then have more influence over them, which is a really interesting thing. So anyway, people typically are really open to giving advice. So I think that's a great starting point of like, you know, figuring out a time you can sit down and have coffee to get some advice. And then, you know, kind of like we're doing this conversation,

you present, hey, here's the situation, here's the problem I'm facing. I'm feeling a little lost and I'd love to get some of your guidance here. And then, you let them go, let them see what they have to say and see if it's helpful. And if it is, then maybe you meet again. And if it's not, then that's okay. At least you, you know, had the practice of like opening up a little bit to someone and, maybe you find another person who's a better fit for you. So yeah, so that's kind of one end of it is like learning how to be more vulnerable. And I think again, kind of like we were saying before,

when it comes to that conversation, uh, you know, with your mom, you kind of got to risk it. You kind of have to go for it first. You got to have to, you kind of have to, um, put your neck out there and you know, maybe be rejected. I don't think you'd be rejected in this situation, but maybe be rejected or maybe and not go perfectly like you want it to. Um, but just realize like, Hey, that's just, this is just practice. Like I'm just learning how to do this thing. I'm not going to be perfect at it at first. And that's okay. So, so that's kind of what I would say on that front, but I wanted to get

to the second part of the answer, which is like approaching your parents for advice too, which I'm not against. I just wanted to give this first part. Is that helpful in any other questions on the first part?

Guest 3 (52:41)

No, I think that makes sense with that first part.

Joey (52:44)

first part is kind of like, don't necessarily go to your parents for advice because, know, unless you, I'm not saying you're going to end up getting divorced if you go to advice for, from divorced people, but it's kind of the whole idea of like, you want to go to people who've had success in the area that you're seeking for success. Sorry if that sounded harsh to anyone. That's not what I intended. The second part I'm saying is like, I think you can go to your mom or dad for advice and relationships. I think you need to be, you know, again, if, they had kind of like a train wreck of a marriage and there weren't a lot of great examples,

you might learn more from their mistakes than you would from the things that you should be doing. If that makes sense or the things that they did. And so I think there's, you know, like one of the, one of the lessons I've heard from a lot of parents is like, they say like, yeah, I really didn't discern well whether I should have married this person. You know, there were like all these red flags. kind of kept them to myself. didn't tell anyone about them. Or if anyone brought them up, I kind of brushed them off. didn't really give them the attention that they deserve. We ended up getting married and now we're divorced. And so I think there's like some

powerful lessons that can come from quote-unquote failure or you know a bad relationship and unhealthy relationship And so I think there is something to be said to you know going to mom or dad and seeking that advice That there's another component of it too that I would say is really helpful is that they know you so well and so they can speak into a little bit at least about maybe how they think you know, you guys are together I remember in some of my relationships in the past. I could tell my mom like

didn't quite approve of the girl I was with, not because she wasn't a good girl, but because I just didn't think that we went well together. And then I remember once I started dating my wife, it was like a totally different tone with my mom. I noticed she was, just talked about her differently, she acted around her differently, and it seemed to be like, okay, there's something here. She said it with words too, but there was something kind of like even nonverbal that I understood like, okay, she thinks this is the right fit. And so I think there's a lot to be said on those two fronts, maybe learning from their mistakes,

and then also kind of pulling upon the wisdom that they have because they've known you. You've known you as long as you have been you and no one else really knows you as long as you've been you. Is that ringing true? Is that helpful?

Guest 3 (54:46)

life.

Guest 3 (54:53)

I think so. mean, I think kind of what I've been doing a bit already is whenever I do ask for advice or they do give me advice, I feel like I tend to just kind of, I don't know, take it with a grain of salt like filter. what do I think is good from this apart from negative? And I think also they are aware of kind of their own mistakes in a sense. Like my mom will talk about things that she felt like could have gone better with my dad or.

you know, like you said, red flags or my dad will talk about with his second marriage, maybe things that, you know, he feels like if he hadn't known, maybe then he wouldn't have gone into that marriage.

Guest 3 (55:31)

That's super valid.

Joey (55:32)

I love that. And I think you're wise to take anyone's, including mine, anyone's advice with a grain of salt and kind of filtering it through, you know, what you think is best. But, but I admire you for the striving and for getting on this call today.

Guest 3 (55:46)

Yes, thank you so much for, you know, taking the time to listen and talk through things.

Joey (55:51)

Absolutely,

my pleasure and yeah, definitely feel free to come back and let us know how it went.

Guest 3 (55:55)

sure thing.

Joey (56:00)

That wraps up this episode. If you'd like to ask a question on the show, like you heard today, just go to restoredministry.com slash ask or click the link in the show notes. Here's how it works. So once you submit your question at that link, my team will review it and once it's approved, you'll get a link to schedule a time with me for 15 to 20 minutes where we'll do a call face to face. So you'll see my face, I'll see your face, but your face and name.

won't be shown once we publish the recording. The audience will only hear your voice. And even if you're not picked to come on the show, we'll do our best to answer every question we get through email at the very least. And by the way, if this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction.

You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CSU is who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#154: Should I Reconnect with My Estranged Parent? | Kreed Revere

For so many of us from divorced or dysfunctional families, the tension with our parents doesn’t just fade. It can grow into silence, distance, or even a total cutoff where we can become estranged from each other. 

But what exactly is estrangement, why does it happen, and how can you rebuild an estranged relationship? In this episode, we discuss that and more:

• The subtle ways parents (and children) unknowingly push each other away

• Why grief is often buried beneath family conflict—and how to face it without getting stuck

• When reconnection is wise—and when staying estranged might actually be safer

If you’re dealing with an estranged relationship, this episode is for you.

Visit Kreed’s website, TheEstrangedHeart.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:03)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so can break that cycle and build a better.

My guest today is Creed Revere. Creed knows what it's like to be cut off from the people that you love. She was actually estranged from both of her daughters at one even her own parents. And that painful journey led to deep healing and to her work now as a certified estrangement coach. And today she helps parents and adult children rebuild trust, navigate all the emotional disconnection that can be present within a family, and pursue reconciliation when it's possible.

And truth is for so many of us who come from divorced or dysfunctional families, the tension with our parents doesn't just fade, it can actually grow into silence or distance or even a straight total cutoff. And we can become estranged from each other. But what exactly is estrangement? Why does it happen? And more importantly, how can you rebuild in a strange relationship?

In this episode, we discuss all of that and more, the subtle ways that parents and children unknowingly push each other away. We hit on if your parent has a mental illness, can the relationship still be healed? We also talk when reconnection is wise and when perhaps staying estranged is actually safer.

Creed also shares real life tactics to set boundaries, test the waters and reconnect without diving in too deep too fast. We hit on why grief is often beneath family conflict and how to face it getting stuck. And then finally, she also shares stories of real transformation and healed relationships. And so if you're dealing with an estranged relationship, this episode is for you. And with that, here's our conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (01:43)

Creed, it's great to have you here. Thanks for coming on the show.

Kreed Revere (01:45)

Thanks for the invite, Joey. I really appreciate it.

Joey Pontarelli (01:47)

I think this topic is so relevant to our audience because so many, parents, but especially the young people that we serve who come from, you know, divorce or dysfunctional families are dealing with estrangement at some level. And so I was really excited to talk with you. So my first question is how do you define estrangement? Like, is it always this kind of full on cutoff, no conversation, or can it be more subtle?

Kreed Revere (02:07)

No, it's much more subtle. It's a spectrum. It really is. There's considered low contact from that emotional distance, right? Where I'll take a phone call here and there and I show up at Christmas or of thing. But other than that, there's a removal from life in general, if you will, all the way up to full no contact at all. So definitely on a spectrum.

Joey Pontarelli (02:32)

Okay, that makes sense. And why does this typically happen? Why does this strange one happen? Like, I'm curious, what are some of maybe the common causes that you see in your work?

Kreed Revere (02:40)

The first and foremost is emotional, that emotional disconnection. there's not an emotional connection. We can be in someone's physical space, we can be in...

relationship with them but not emotionally connected and that is the root right we and there's reasons for that but that's the main piece of it there's been some sort of what I call a rupture to that emotional connection and there hasn't been a repair to it.

Oftentimes we'll see chronic invalidation seems to be at the root of it. That's my own personal experience as well. And it's really significant. And I see that a lot with younger people when they are talking with their parents about things and their parents are chronically invalidating them. And so that is, and that causes emotional ruptures all the time. It just across the board. If I'm not validated, I'm not seen, I'm not being heard,

we have that piece of things. You know, there can also be traumas that happen, right, that can cause, and if we're looking at divorce and things like that, that's, it's a trauma that anyone goes through. It doesn't matter how old you are, how old your parents, you divorce happens. So there's traumas, there's, those types of things tend to be, but at the root of it all is that emotional piece. It does it every time.

Joey Pontarelli (03:36)

Wow.

Okay, no, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I definitely have experienced that in relationships where you're just kind of missing each other or even intentionally kind of taking that like emotional space, which I'm excited to dig into curious, what's an example of like invalidation that you've seen in your work? Because I think people kind of understand that, but I'd like to maybe spell it out a little bit further.

Kreed Revere (04:18)

Sure, and this is something when I am working with parents, they are clueless about validation and what that means, truly. So invalidation is...

know, Susie comes home from school and she's had her feelings hurt by her best friend, you know, Sarah. And Susie's mom says, well honey, know, Sarah really cares about you. I'm sure she was just having a bad day and maybe she was having some issues that we're not aware of. And maybe just, you know, try to look at it from Sarah's perspective.

Joey Pontarelli (04:53)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (04:53)

invalidating. That's invalidating Suzy's perspective, Suzy's feelings, what Suzy has been experiencing and going through. And so most parents, a lot of older parents, ⁓ were brought up with that, you know, trying to see the other side, put yourself in the other person's shoes, those types of things, and totally ignore what the child has brought to the table about their own feelings and what they are experiencing.

Joey Pontarelli (05:20)

Okay, yeah, I'm tracking with you there. And what I hear you saying too is that essentially it's almost like they're skipping over, they're skipping over the pain, they're skipping over the struggle. They're maybe trying to, I don't know, maybe force a resolution or like you said, focus maybe too much on like the other person. And I'm sure we're going to get into this, but might as well answer it now. What would the right approach look like in that situation? Like she comes home from school.

has had this kind of hard day, conflict, what would be the right thing to say in that scenario?

Kreed Revere (05:48)

Wow, that sounds like it was a really hard day for you, honey. I am so sorry. Sarah's your best friend. That had to have hurt when she snapped at you or she whatever. How do you think that, how do you think that maybe, could that be resolved? Do you think it's something that, you know, maybe she had a hard day, but.

you had a hard day too, so what do you think might be the best solution? So in trying to acknowledge her feelings, acknowledge that she's having a hard day and that's her best friend, and there's been conflict, and then asking for her input on is there a way to resolve this, and getting her buy-in with that.

her participation in finding her own resolutions and solutions to the challenges that she's facing.

Joey Pontarelli (06:35)

Okay,

that's super helpful. So start with empathy, put yourself in the child's shoes in that situation. And I know we can apply this really in a relationship, but, then from there, instead of maybe forcing or, you know, telling them the solution, making sure that they're a part of coming to the conclusion of like what they should do about it. So that makes a lot of sense. I'm excited to go deeper there, especially as it relates on maybe the other side of the equation. I'm curious, you kind of alluded to having personal experience with this.

Why do you care so deeply topic about a strange man helping people reconnect?

Kreed Revere (07:05)

I've lived it. My daughters both estranged from me, my only children. They both estranged from me at the same time in 2016. And I've also been an estranged adult child three separate times with my mother and once recently, as recent as last year for a very short period of time with my dad thing. So I have that experience and that led me to become the estranged my coach that I am today.

Joey Pontarelli (07:28)

Okay, I'm sorry you went through that. That sounds hard. know that a lot of people come to light with you. Parents listening who've been on that side of it, but also young people listening who maybe have been estranged from their parents. One thing we hear all the time from the young adults, the young people that we lead, that we serve from, know, divorced or dysfunctional families, they say things like, my parents want to even acknowledge the pain that I've gone through when our family fell apart, when they separated or whatever.

particular thing happen in their And kind of like we were talking before, really just looking for empathy. They're looking for some sort of acknowledgement. But what would you say to them, to someone who maybe who's been met with silence, who's met with defensiveness, and maybe even blame in some cases? What would you say to them?

Kreed Revere (08:10)

first, want to validate that pain. mean, and it's valid. It's valid. All of your emotions that you're feeling in the case of divorce, entire, your world has just been shattered. The world that you have known it to be for however long that has been, right, has just shattered.

Joey Pontarelli (08:22)

Mm.

Kreed Revere (08:29)

you have every right to feel all the feelings, the whole range, the whole spectrum of feelings. And it's important to know that this was not your fault. is between mom and dad and what has happened here with the parents in separating, but it has affected you, right? But you're not broken and there's not anything wrong with you, but...

acknowledging and taking ownership of I have a right to feel this. And oftentimes our parents are in a place where, and I've experienced this too myself, when you're going through a divorce as a parent, you're so wrapped up in the hurt and pain you're having because of the end of this relationship, right? And then trying to navigate and figure out do I...

Joey Pontarelli (09:08)

Totally.

Kreed Revere (09:14)

how do I do life as a single parent now, a, you know, what have you. And so there's a lot of emotions and complex emotions that are happening through that entire situation. So my suggestion is to always try to seek out support and support from someone who can help to hold that space. So oftentimes we, and we can talk about this later in other areas, we get into what I call our echo chambers.

Joey Pontarelli (09:23)

Yeah.

Kreed Revere (09:39)

where somebody's just kind of feeding us what we want to hear. And I think it's important for someone to be able to hold space without trying to fix or solve and without trying to feed us all the things we want to hear. that make sense?

Joey Pontarelli (09:53)

Yeah, no, that's helpful. That's a tricky balance for sure. yeah, I'm sure we'll go deeper into that, but I'm curious off the top of your head if any way of like not falling into either extreme.

Kreed Revere (10:01)

I think it's number one, trying to find professional support. So now a part of that is gonna depend on how old the person is, the child is. But finding professional support, someone that can allow you to explore, that's the curiosity is my word in my coaching Without curiosity, it's hard to do a whole lot of things, to have awareness, have, figure out solutions and things like that. So having someone that can help us to

explore our emotions and then when we are ready and then to branch out from there and explore other things that can help us to decide what's the next best step, right? Not the next journey, but the next step.

Joey Pontarelli (10:43)

Okay, no, that makes sense. just wanted double down on what you said about parents going through this situation. think one thing that's been helpful for me understanding my parents when they were going through their divorce was just exactly what you said, how overwhelming it is and how it's really too much to ask of anyone. know, like in my case, my mom was the one who was at home with us. Dad left the house and... ⁓

she had to do two roles. She had to, you know, take care of all of us kids. It was just a lot to, manage. so I think, I think that's been helpful for me and like, her and you know, the whole forgiveness journey and things like that. But, ⁓ but you know, at the same time, like we can still validate and say, Hey, you know, just because they had a lot on their shoulders, they still, you know, and I'm not necessarily saying this directly about my mom, but they,

neglected you in certain ways, or maybe there was harm because they were spilling their emotions over onto you. I think that's such a common experience. don't know, maybe this exists out there, but I haven't really seen a divorce where that doesn't happen. I think that's just so, so common that I know there's this kind of idea out there, which I would argue against, that there's this good divorce. I think in every divorce, it's like,

It's hard. It's everyone, everyone involved is going through a lot. And so I think it's really common to, be hurt, to be harmed by that. And certainly there are varying degrees of harm and severity to get that. And sometimes there's a necessity for but it, it's a hard thing to go through. And I think, ⁓ taking that perspective of like, man, my parents were going through a lot. they did the best they could with that, capacity they had. But if we were looking at it objectively, their capacity should have been larger and this thing, you know,

hopefully wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Kreed Revere (12:18)

Exactly. does. It happens with every case. One of the things that I think is important to remember in this is grief.

There's so much, this is a significant loss. It's a loss of the family as you've known it, whether you're the parent or you're the child. It's the loss of dreams, it's the loss of expectations of what my life was gonna look like. I'm gonna graduate college and both my parents are gonna be there and all the things and now that's all shattered and what do I do with that? Where do I even go?

the same thing on the parents end, right? This loss of dreams. And by and large, we're a culture that doesn't, we don't do anything with loss and grief. And it is such a significant part of my work because...

Joey Pontarelli (12:54)

No.

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (13:00)

Obviously there's loss and grief that comes with the estrangement piece, but way before we even get to estrangement, there's been significant losses that haven't really been, in my opinion, tended to with compassion and empathy and just holding that space to allow all of the emotions that exist within grief and loss.

Joey Pontarelli (13:22)

So good. I curious. We've spoken about grief a bit on the podcast. We've never done like one exactly on this topic, which we need to do in the future, curious, like maybe one insight or one like helpful of advice for anyone who's like dealing with grief. Like obviously there's like the different stages of grief and things like that. I'm curious if there's anything in particular that was like really helpful for you or helpful for your clients when it comes to this whole idea of grieving.

Kreed Revere (13:45)

First of all, getting comfortable with saying. I'm grieving.

even recognize that that's what's happening. So we have to name something before we can really do anything else from that point. we don't even know what we're dealing with, it's hard to know which direction to go. So it's in naming, I'm grieving, and then understanding that grief is not linear. That's the biggest thing. I should be over this by now. I should be at this point. I should no longer be angry. should not, no.

Joey Pontarelli (14:00)

Yeah.

Kreed Revere (14:15)

our notions, everyone deals with grief differently and it is, have you seen those graphics that are like just this knotted ball of yarn kind of thing and that is grief. I mean, your emotions are all wrapped up in it. It's not this line of yarn that is just going across straight and it's marked by these intervals of these different emotions and processes. It's this ball of,

Joey Pontarelli (14:25)

Mm-hmm.

Kreed Revere (14:45)

tangled emotions and we have to feel them, all of them, and learn how to express them in healthy ways, right? But all of them should be given the space to be honored to include the less than pretty ones.

Joey Pontarelli (15:00)

that's super helpful. And I think we all have the tendency, especially here in America, just like move fast beyond it, outrun it. And think a lot of times I heard a quote once from another podcast where they were saying, you you imagine like a swimmer in a water who maybe it's a woman who has like long hair as long as she keeps swimming fast, that long, dark, messy hair won't catch up with her.

the second you stop, then it kind of can entangle you. And that's a scary thought for a lot of people. So, that makes sense kind of making space for, just, you know, acknowledging like, Hey, I just experienced a serious loss, which it's tricky. we see in our work so many, so often, because divorce is so common in our culture, not really treated very seriously. It's like, well, you know, a lot of people go through this. end probably being okay. You're going to be fine too. You're resilient and all that.

And so I think that's a big part of this particular grief is like, well, first we need to call it, like you did a trauma, a really difficult thing to endure. ⁓ but then from there, giving yourself the space, like you said of, know, yeah, just feeling whatever it is you feel and, you know, understanding, like you said, that it's not going to be this pretty like clean cut process. It really is a difficult thing.

Kreed Revere (16:08)

very, very, very difficult. ⁓ And then you have the guilt that's grief, right? And especially in this case, for children, what could I have done different? Was it my fault? ⁓ if I had only did what dad said for me to do, this whole thing wouldn't have happened if I had only this. Same thing for the parents. There's a lot of guilt wrapped up in it, which is also why we want to run.

We don't want to feel that piece of it. So my work is has a lot to do with the less than what I call happy happy, joy feelings, right? So I sit in the space of all the ick if you will right the the difficulty motions that no one wants to venture into that's my world That's that's where I feel comfortable in because I have been through so much of it personally and have learned

Joey Pontarelli (16:48)

the difficult emotions and yeah.

Kreed Revere (17:00)

how to navigate that and honor that and be with and it has absolutely transformed my life by learning how to do that.

Joey Pontarelli (17:07)

Wow.

How so? I'd love to get into that if you're comfortable with it. And I had another question about grief. Maybe let's start there. What sort of transformation have you seen personally it comes to grief and moving through it?

Kreed Revere (17:18)

Personally, I've had, I mean my entire life is about losses. It's funny because I'm in the middle of writing my memoir right now.

And this morning I was just going through talking about the grief and thinking, my goodness, have, like, you know, sometimes you just stop and think about all the life events you've been through and when you're writing a memoir and you're trying to compile this, it's really kind of in my face. And so my parents have been, you my parents were divorced. I started that off when I was little. I've been divorced. There's job losses. There's been, I haven't experienced death.

a lot my grandmother has passed away. I I was very, very young when my paternal grandparents passed away, but my losses, my grieving have come from the loss of dreams, the loss of expectations of what I thought my life was going to look like at a particular point in time. And so when I got in therapy and really started processing those,

and learning that all of my emotions were okay to feel because I was ⁓ shamed for a number of years for being, I was the angry child. ⁓ And so was really shamed for showing the less than happy, happy, joy feelings. ⁓ And when I got and made friends with those feelings, that's when my life started to transform. I was no longer resisting what I was experiencing.

Joey Pontarelli (18:29)

Yeah.

Kreed Revere (18:39)

I was living it and that is where the transformation happened. And I think that's why I can sit with people now in those spaces because I've been there and I did it with myself first. Does that make sense?

Joey Pontarelli (18:53)

Yeah, no, it

absolutely does. And you've been through a lot. That's heavy too. Everything that you've been through. And I'm really glad you're in that better spot now. I love what you said though, kind of the fact that you, it's not like you snapped your fingers and you solved your grief in the sense that like, it's all, the problem's gone. It's that you've kind of learned to live with it.

which maybe isn't the most encouraging thing for people to hear who maybe had an expectation that like, if I just like grieve and I go through like this five step process or whatever, that I'm gonna be able to like put this all behind me and life will be happy and things will be better. But I think what you said is so wise because the kind of lay person definition of grief that I've come through is it's basically just the process of the messy process we could say of just accepting life after a loss.

Kreed Revere (19:15)

Okay.

Joey Pontarelli (19:40)

like this new reality in your life after a loss, is easy to say, hard to do. But yeah, I think there's something so important in that that it's messy and not like the loss goes away once you have grieved it.

Kreed Revere (19:51)

No,

it's actually something that I think I consider the fuel for transforming me. so and when I say transforming,

consider it like fire, fire transforms things and it can transform for the good and it can transform for the, not so good, right? But if we're looking at it from the perspective, how can I utilize this experience and this grief that I'm feeling to transform me in a way that's going to move me forward in my life and allow...

me to incorporate that grief into my world instead of fighting it and trying to force it to go away. That's where that resistance comes in and that's what keeps people stuck. I deal with this every day talking with the strange moms. There's such significant grief and they fight it and they resist it and they feel all the shoulds and I shouldn't be here and I shouldn't this and that and the other thing. And when we can come to that place of acceptance.

Joey Pontarelli (20:35)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (20:48)

this is what it is, this is what I'm living, this is what I'm experiencing, I'm just gonna be here with it for a minute. And then we learn to slowly incorporate it back into our life instead of pushing it away. And that's when you start to see transformation and see people actually making progress to move through the grief instead of being stuck in it.

Joey Pontarelli (21:06)

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Joey Pontarelli (21:44)

I

love that. You made me think of, I'm going to butcher this, is it the Stockholm paradox? I can't remember where you kind of have this grip on reality, this view of reality that's just so like realistic. It's like, no, I can see clearly you know, how bad things are or the reality of things, like what, what, they actually are not making them.

rosy and better than they are, them worse than they are, but you see reality as it is. But at the same time, you have like an optimism that no, no, things can be better. I'm going to work hard to make that happen. I forget exactly. I heard Jim Collins in the business world talk about it, but I can't remember the name of it. does that ring a bell for you?

Kreed Revere (22:19)

feel what you're talking about. I don't know the reference that you're making. yes, there's this place of... Our culture and society teaches us to push and force.

Push past the pain, you know, no pain no gain. you know, just like this steady force to make something happen and make something go away generally, right? Unless it's that happy happy joy joy stuff I mentioned. And when we can stop that and settle with this is my reality right now, but it doesn't mean I have to stay here.

because there are possibilities. When we get curious, can uncover some possibilities and things like that and we can ease into it instead of us forcing things to happen. And I see that again in estrangement so much, so much trying to force things to happen and that's what can lead to estrangement and that's what they try to do, parents try to do when we're talking about reconciliation. They're trying to force things to happen instead of allowing.

being patient, practicing the pause as I say. We have to practice the pause and be patient, right?

Joey Pontarelli (23:24)

Mm-hmm.

That's really good because of hitting on another you're hitting another point that our audience, you know struggles with at times and that is maybe mom or dad Recognized that they need to do or say something that they haven't said or done in the past whether it's an apology or just taking ownership of What's happened in the family or whatever? It looks different in different situations But it might feel like you're saying like so forced and in genuine even though, know I'm sure there's a good intention behind

that it's really hard to receive. It's like, yeah, I know you're kind of just saying that because maybe I express frustration that you haven't said it, but I don't know if this is really coming from an authentic place.

Kreed Revere (24:02)

bingo. Yep, I see that all the time, all the time, right? And when I'm working with my coaching clients, that's what I'm talking about. And in support groups, I'm saying we have to get to a place where you can allow your adult child to have their feelings and their separation from us if that's what they need in this moment, right? And not forcing your

what you need, what you want, but making space for them and their needs and their wants. And that is such a hard place to be for a lot of parents. And so they will go into this space of, okay, I'm sorry, I won't do it again, and this type of thing. And I tell them, I'm like, your kids know.

I said they know if you're being real about this, if this is authentic, they can sense that and feel it. So you have to do this work on your end before you do that, which is why we need to practice the pause.

Joey Pontarelli (25:00)

Mm-hmm.

Okay,

no, that's helpful. And is there anything in addition to the pause that's helpful in order to like be genuine, whether that's a parent who's trying maybe have a conversation or reconcile with their kid or a child, you know, a young adult, let's say who's trying to reconcile with their parent, is there anything else that can be done to?

bring that like authenticity. Cause that like we're saying that can't be forced, but at the same time, it might need to be worked toward, would assume, because, you know, if you just wait around expecting it to like happen, fall out of the sky, that's not going to happen either.

Kreed Revere (25:33)

No, from my perspective, parents need to do their own inner work.

Without doing that, it's hard to come to that place of authenticity and being able to truly hear your adult child. really, it's difficult to do because your own stuff is getting in the way, your own triggers and things like that. Once you can get through that piece of things, then we move into this, how can you be curious about your child, right? Parents get into this, I know my kid, I've lived within their entire life, I know them, I know who they are, I know.

and things like that and I'm like but you don't you've had this estrangement experience unless you've asked them you don't know what their experience is or has been so we need to get curious around that and then we also need to move what I call moving from that manager role as a parent to more of that consultant role getting their buy-in checking in with them what do you need from me in this moment

when you say you want me to do A, B, and C, what does that look like for you? How can I show up for you? Instead of making assumptions and assuming that you know what they're asking for. And parents aces at that, myself included. I know my kid, I know what they want. When they say this, I know what they want. And it's eight times out of 10, it's not what you think it is.

Joey Pontarelli (26:47)

Yeah. Yeah.

Totally, and on the other side of the spectrum with being child, think what often happens, what we see in the young people that we mentor is that they actually are hesitant to open up. So mom or dad might ask them and they don't really give an answer or if they do, it's not the full answer. So I think it sounds like this is something that happens and over many conversations where there's trust that's built and things like that I what we see and this, I felt this with my parents too.

as soon as they separated and broke the news, I trusted both of them really deeply and it felt like all that trust had just shattered. And I'm not saying they were like bad people. I'm not saying that they were intentionally harming us, but it hurt and it was harmful. so definitely see how that would be the case as well.

Kreed Revere (27:36)

Trust is everything. And in every bit of my work, that's what I talk about. We're doing this so that we can rebuild trust with your adult child. And that doesn't come overnight. And I use the example to them. I'm like, your spouse comes home and you find out they've had an affair. Okay, so.

They come home and they go, ⁓ you know, it's been six months. Why are you not over this? Like, what is the problem? Get over it. I'm not doing this anymore, right? I said, are you inclined to just open up the trust doors and let them walk through? And every one of them go, no. And so I say, okay, so here we are. Same thing with your adult child. This trust has been broken, so we have to rebuild that trust, and that is slow.

Joey Pontarelli (28:13)

Mm-hmm.

Kreed Revere (28:23)

and very tiny baby steps that makes that happen and consistency.

Joey Pontarelli (28:27)

Okay.

Yeah, I was curious, what are the kind of ingredients or components of trust? way one component, you know, like you said, is consistency. So it's, you over time, it's something that you're doing again and again, but what are the other components that you see?

Kreed Revere (28:40)

that patience piece and being able to take it very, very, very some glimmer of hope or some glimmer of, they hear me. We're moving in the right direction and then we wanna jump right in.

because there's been this loss, because there's been this separation, and we want to feel connected again. And so we want to jump right in and then we overdo. We start pushing, we start we start making suggestions and all those types of things. And then the adult child goes, whoa.

and this is way too much too soon, right? I have a lot of parents who talk to me and they'll say, so how long is this whole coaching thing, this process? mean, what, six months? And I'm like, I've got clients I've been working with for three years. a long, slow, methodical process, right? And then once you've reconciled, then that becomes a whole nother journey in maintaining that, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (29:14)

Yeah.

Hmm.

You too, sure, yeah.

Okay, no, very good. When it comes to curiosity, I'm curious kind of the components of that too. what does that look like practically maybe either a parent to a child or a child to a parent when they're trying to, and when I say child, I mean like an adult child, but yeah, I'm curious like what that might look like practically to be curious and use curiosity.

Kreed Revere (29:56)

It's to start with, I'm curious. What does this feel like for you? What was that like for you when I came to you and I said such as such? What was, you know, I'm curious, I wanna know more. Can you help me to understand? not sure I understand, and this relationship's really important to me, and I wanna understand, right?

It's that piece, it's coming in with questions but not interrogation. And there's a difference. I come from a police world and so I tell parents all the time, don't interrogate your child. Don't pepper them with questions. We want to come with compassion and gentleness and tenderness and a curious mindset. And if that means that you need to preface it and been saying, I'm curious, I don't know how to move forward from here.

Do you have some suggestions? That vulnerability piece, and that I think is what stops a lot of people from being curious because you have to be vulnerable to be curious. Yeah, it's really

Joey Pontarelli (30:51)

is scary. Yeah, it's a hard thing,

agree like there can't be trust without it that the curiosity piece asking good questions. That's one of the things I hear you saying like asking good questions you know being careful not to make it sound like an interrogation like you're squeezing information out of with your intention. I kind of heard that and what you said to where you're just kind of explaining here Here's why I'm doing I think sometimes people can be a little suspicious of like are you?

using this as like ammunition to hurt me in the future? Or is this genuinely something that you want to, relationship you want to like, you know, rescue? And, and then I think underneath it all is that assumption that you don't know everything. like you said before, like you don't fully know this person maybe they've changed and there's something new that they haven't shared with you. And I think that's always the case. I know, even thinking like with my wife, it's like, you know, you've been married seven years and it would be easy for me to assume like I know.

pretty much everything about her, I love that assumption that no, I don't, a person's like a universe or an ocean, you can always continue to explore and learn new things about them, so I think that's really helpful in these conversations.

Kreed Revere (31:52)

Yeah, another thing that I would like to offer to here, because this is so prevalent in the estrangement world parents, is older grew up at a time when being curious was not encouraged. As a matter of was discipline.

for being curious, remember the whole curiosity killed the cat? ⁓ Right? And so a lot of parents grew up with that. So when I am working with parents, I learn quite quickly that sometimes they do not know how to be curious. So a lot of my work is in teaching.

Joey Pontarelli (32:14)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (32:29)

teaching parents and helping them to open up and feel safe enough to ask questions. Sometimes they feel stupid for asking questions, they feel like somebody's gonna make fun of them if they ask questions, things like this, so they will not. That's where a lot of the assumptions come in, because in statements versus questions, because then I don't necessarily have to be vulnerable and open to ridicule or punishment or those types of things for being curious. There's a real campaign

be a real roadblock there. So I just kind of FYI for some of the children even parents who may be listening to this, where is the level of curiosity? What is that for you? Right? And if there is a resistance to that, where's that coming from in likelihood? Very much so it's probably childhood things.

Joey Pontarelli (32:59)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Okay. That's really good.

And I like that, like, you know, avoid making statements unless there may be there like empathetic statements and then ask questions. And I imagine you want to ask open-ended questions, not like questions that could be answered with a yes or one other question about grief. think one of the fears that a lot of people have is that they're going to get stuck in it forever. It's like, Oh, if I go down into that hole, I ain't coming what would you say to someone who

is facing that. Because I think they might look around in their life and see people who might be in that place where they, whether they've fallen into victim mentality or they just you struggling with learned helplessness or something like that extent. So that's kind of like the far end of the spectrum. But I'm curious, like, what would you say to someone who's maybe afraid of going that route?

Kreed Revere (33:59)

That's a normal feeling. Totally, totally normal. Like I have to normalize all of this, right? It's really normal to feel that. willingly just jumps off the deep end into unknown waters? mean, most people are like, no.

Thank you. I don't know what's on the other side of that, right? So it's a very normal thing. The second thing I would say is to don't do this without some sort of support. And I mean, when I say support, understand not everyone has access to professional support, but find someone that can hold that. Someone who's always trying to make you happy and joyful and that's not what I'm talking about. Try to find someone who is curious about your sadness.

and can they sit with that, right? And then have a conversation with them. I really feel like I need to process some of this grief and I don't know how. you just be with me while I try to try some things on for size? And that kind of person can typically hold the space enough for you to feel like you're not drowning.

Joey Pontarelli (35:00)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (35:00)

and you can enter into it. And that's another thing, jump in from the deep end. tell parents all the time, stick your toe in the water first. Just put your toe in the water. You don't have to go deep into things until we're ready for that. Take it slow, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (35:07)

Yeah.

Okay,

that's helpful.

That's helpful. And on that note, I'm curious, the first step that you recommend, and before I go into that, let me just say, I love the suggestion for professional help, going to therapy, to a competent therapist, maybe someone who you know has helped someone that you are close to, ⁓ has good referrals, things like that.

That's kind of one simple way to find someone good. But if you can't, obviously, there a lot of ways to find someone then, like you said, too, a coach or a mentor even if you don't have access to.

you know, funds to pay for that or things like that. So I think mentors in my life have been really huge. And so I think that's another good, good option. But I'm, curious though, like as a, maybe a first step to someone who is shifting from grief to estrangement now, let's say someone's estranged from their parent, let's say in this situation, and they want to begin to reconnect, what's maybe the immediate thing that they can do right now to take that first step.

Kreed Revere (36:50)

before the first step is determining what are you wanting from the reconnection? Because I think that sometimes that can be driven by a sense of guilt. I need to reconnect with my mom because she's sad and she's telling everybody, all of our friends and family that she just can't get out of bed and so I have this guilt and so I want to reconnect. I would.

Joey Pontarelli (36:52)

Yeah, go for it.

Kreed Revere (37:12)

offer some caution around that because again, you're probably, it's, we need to want to come back and reconnect with people that we feel safe with, that we want to maintain a relationship with, and sometimes if we're doing, we may not be ready right now. Okay, so this is another piece of my work in that

The bulk of my work is in helping people to repair their relationships. I want people, I want parents and adult children to be in relationship with each other, if at all possible, right? Sometimes that means we have to take space. And sometimes that space is needed on one end, but not the other, hence the estrangement, and we have to determine when we're ready for that. We may try and then...

Joey Pontarelli (37:42)

100%.

Kreed Revere (37:59)

we may have to take a step back again. So in that reconnection, figure out first, what are you Are you wanting to face some hard things and maybe have some hard discussions, ⁓ challenging topics and things like that? Or are you wanting to go in to this only to stop the pain?

because if you're wanting to just go in, if you're wanting to go in to stop the pain without having done some work and really processed and figured some things out.

it's likely that you will re-estrange down the road. And then we've just, we're on a cycle, right? And we're repeating things. So the goal is, I would rather, I tell my clients, I would rather you and your child take some distance, and if that means five years, eight years, whatever, right now, you can come back in a very healthy way later that's lasting and sustainable.

that I feel is best than to do this in and out dance because we haven't done some things that we need to do beforehand. that, I don't know if that answers your question.

Joey Pontarelli (39:05)

Yeah,

no, I'm taking it all in. I was just thinking of a recent interview we had with Cole who shared his story, you know, going through his parents' divorce. And he kind of became like diplomat, peacemaker, kind of a therapist in a way to his parents. it all caught up with him. It was just too much for him to bear. he, you know, at one point through the process, he had an option of kind of stepping back. He didn't do that initially, which

Now looking back, he's like, I wish I would have done that. then eventually it just brought him to like a breaking point where he's like, I can't, I have to step back. And so he, you know, took some time away from, you know, his parents, his sister, even I believe if I remember right. yeah. So, so I think, you know, he, missed that first opportunity, which he wishes he would have had, but then eventually he recognized that he needed to step back. So I think that's good advice. I can't recall exactly how long it was for him, but I think it was about a year.

And then he started to kind of resume and restart the relationships. And I think things have, you know, not been perfect, but better through all that.

Kreed Revere (40:02)

Sure.

again, kind of think about life. There are times when...

whether we've been dealt a hand in life or by our own making, we've chosen to step back. isn't working for me in this moment and I need to figure out why it's not and what do I want from this relationship? What am I looking for in this relationship and can this other person help me to achieve that? Can I help them to achieve what they're looking for? Kind of thing. Now there is a power differential that I talk about often ⁓ in parent and adult child relationships that you

have in others, right?

So that sometimes there's things that are a little bit different where that's figuring out what do I want out of this relationship is a good first step before we actually reach out. And then from there, if you have determined this is, I've done some healing work, I really want to reconnect because this relationship's important to me and I want to do whatever work is needed to get this back on the right track and be healthy and sustainable over the years, then I think in reaching out,

you have to kind of test the waters. It's a risk, It's a risk. There's really no, no way around it unless you have family and friends who have said to you, I know that you're having a tough time with your mom right now. And I just want you to know that.

I just saw her the other day she's like a different person. She's changed in this way. I've seen that she does this differently. Those types of things are good indicators that maybe there's been a shift in... ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (41:25)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (41:35)

you could venture back into that and with a little more emotional safety ⁓ kind of thing. But outside of that, it really and if your parents you don't you you haven't had communication with them so you don't know for sure you have to kind of take a risk. Now I'm also a person who does mediation with parents and adult children so something that you could also reach out to a coach or a mediator or someone to you know I have kids that reach out to me and say hey could you

Joey Pontarelli (41:39)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (42:04)

contact my mom see if this is something she's open to and ready for and things like that.

Joey Pontarelli (42:09)

That's neat, I've never heard of that. That makes sense. I've heard of it through like legal proceedings of a divorce, but that's cool with an estrangement between parents and children. I'm curious, what are some of maybe the common or hopes for the relationship, like when you're considering re-entering relationship or kind of overcoming the estrangement, however you'd say that?

You know, what are some of the green lights? Like we mentioned that if you're just doing it out of guilt or solve some pain, maybe that's not a green light and not a good sign, a good reason to do it. But what are maybe some of the good signs that someone would know? yeah, this is like the right motivation, the right timing.

Joey Pontarelli (42:43)

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Kreed Revere (43:46)

I say when we can look at another person, so if you're an adult child you can look at your parent and say, wow, yep, they did a lot of things that hurt me and they're human. I don't know what this is gonna look like, but I'm willing to give it a go. ⁓

that's usually a really good sign. If you are the opposite of that, if you are still in that deep pain and that hurt and you're calling your parent all the labels that are out there for parents today, that's probably not a good time to reach out because there's a lot of lashing out that typically happens with that. So if you feel like you've kind of moved beyond that, I'm not minimizing the pain, there's still pain and pain that needs to be, parents need to take account

for and those types of things and tough conversations that need to be had but that

deep lashing out, if there's not that feeling, that's a good indicator that you're in a different place and reaching out could be beneficial. Boundaries, gotta have some boundaries in place, right? And I think a lot of people get boundaries confused and they use them as walls and protection versus...

So if I may share an example, my father, I mentioned a brief estrangement with him last year. And I had to, the reason I took the space from him was because I had to figure out where are my boundaries with this. What can I How can I be in relationship with him without it sacrificing my own mental health? So I took a few weeks, I guess it was about a month.

Joey Pontarelli (45:19)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (45:22)

apart from him for me to figure that piece out and I worked through it with my therapist.

then I was able to come in and I wrote him a letter. And that letter simply said, know, I love you, I always have and always will. And this no longer works for me. You know, I will not, a lot of I statements, I will not be in relationship with someone who speaks to me this way. So this is another thing, communication and how we're wording things. When we're doing you statements, there's a lot of pointing the finger and so then

Parents get really defensive, vice versa. Kids get defensive. So it's in using those I statements, this is what I need for me to be in relationship with you. And as long as that is met, let's give this a go. And that's where we've been. I've had to implement those boundaries twice now. And I had to get up and leave the conversation boundary was crossed. But I didn't.

Joey Pontarelli (46:18)

Mm-hmm.

Kreed Revere (46:20)

I didn't raise my voice, I didn't throw a temper tantrum, I simply said, this conversation is no longer working for me, I hope you guys have a good day, and I picked up my purse and out the door I went. That kind of boundary, that's what I'm talking about, right? it's in figuring out where do your values lie, what am I willing to engage in, and maybe here's another piece to parts of life are uncomfortable.

Joey Pontarelli (46:32)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (46:45)

And we have to be able to tolerate a little bit of uncomfortableness, right? I am not saying abuse. I am not saying to be, that is not what I'm talking about. But if something is, you're like, that landed a little sideways for me. That's a little uncomfortable. know, feeling, this feeling of being uncomfortable.

That's an invitation to what? Okay, there's something here for me to explore, right? And to take that and go with it. So does that answer your question?

Joey Pontarelli (47:09)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

yeah, no, it's definitely a complex, there's a lot of complexity to this, but I love the simplicity that you bring to it and that like tactical practical stops. it just, think one of the lessons in all of this is common commonality between different or strange mints, but it sounds like each of them has their own particular challenges that you kind of need to work through. And that's where having a therapist, having coach, having a mentor who could help you through it is just really wise.

One question on the note of, you touched on this a bit already, but I'm curious if there's anything you would add. know, when is it actually healthier maybe to remain as strange for a season and, know, are there, again, we touched on this a bit, but I'm just want to give you a chance to add anything else. there any, you know, red flags that would say maybe it would be premature, unsafe?

Kreed Revere (47:55)

Yeah, when a parent is not able to take accountability for things, they're not in a place to do it. For whatever reason. There could be their own traumas, their own things that they're experiencing. And that needs to be worked through before. Because if they're not able to take accountability, they're not going to validate your experience and your feelings. And that...

Joey Pontarelli (48:00)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (48:18)

back in square one, with kind of where things were at to begin with. So if they're not able to take accountability, if they're not able to have empathy for you and your experience, again, accountability and understanding and seeing where you're coming from, if there is

Joey Pontarelli (48:20)

Mm-hmm.

Kreed Revere (48:38)

invalidating, ⁓ know, pointing the finger, this is all your fault, those types of things, this is, that is, it's, keep the space, right? They're not ready. if I could ask one thing of adult children, regardless of your age, is understand that

Joey Pontarelli (48:54)

Mm-hmm.

Kreed Revere (48:59)

Oftentimes, a parent may not be ready it has nothing to do with you.

This doesn't have anything to do with you. It has to do with their baggage, their childhood traumas, their things that they have not resolved. So if they're not in a place where they can take accountability, it doesn't mean it's your fault. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It does not mean that, okay? It means they are not in a place in their life for a whole host of reasons.

Joey Pontarelli (49:33)

Mmm.

Kreed Revere (49:34)

where they can meet you and come

to the table and have emotional maturity, take accountability, some responsibility, and be able to see things through your eyes be interested in your experience. Bottom line. And that when things like that happen, it's better to pull back, keeping in mind that your parents are human too.

Joey Pontarelli (49:56)

Yeah.

Kreed Revere (49:57)

Right? So my father in no way, or form emotionally He's 80.

So I have to determine how I need to manage me in order to stay in relationship with him. And that's where my, I'm able to do that now because of the healing work that I've done in therapy.

Joey Pontarelli (50:05)

Sorry.

That's such a difficult spot to be in, I love that you've had growth and you've become a better, stronger person who's better able to navigate and handle that. That's amazing. And I want to shift back to boundaries a little bit, because I think again, we touched on this a bit, but I think people will maybe find themselves in this spot where it's like, well, I don't totally want to cut someone I certainly need some boundaries in place because the way maybe things are now, I'm kind of emotionally getting beat up again. I'm not saying it's abuse, but it's just not the healthiest spot for me to be.

I remember just to kind of piggyback on your story, I was in college and dad who was just going through a really hard time, his brother had died and kind of was in a talisman. He's just some struggles with mental health and things like that. And, know, was treating people the way that I don't think people should never be treated and doing things that I...

disagreed with and I felt as if if I were to continue my relationship with him, was almost be as if I was like tacitly approving his behavior. And so I did what you did and I wrote him a letter and I explained like, Hey dad, I love you. I want a good relationship with you. But as long as you know, maybe I didn't say this perfectly, but as long as behaving this way, as long as I see, that, you know, there's people that I care about her being hurt.

can't have that relationship with you, but as soon as I see signs that you've transformed, I'd be happy to resume to restart the relationship. me, it was, I think like a year and a we were apart, but he did kind of come down, know, settle down and got to a better spot. And, you know, we have a much better relationship today. So I think a lot of people, you know, that was kind of maybe one of those extreme examples of like, Hey, I got to cut things off for right now. Hopefully not forever.

But maybe people are in this space where like, do I put those other branches in place? So you already gave good advice on that. I'm curious if there's anything you would add.

Kreed Revere (51:57)

Yeah, you know, people, communication is another piece to this, right, and being able to communicate. And it's hard to communicate when our nervous systems are completely dysregulated because we're seeing and hearing all the things. ⁓ And so have to get ourselves to a place where we can regulate the nervous system and get to a state of calm, as calm as we can, and then to determine where are my boundaries,

What

do I need in order to allow this relationship to continue? What does that look like? those things out. With boundaries, I am a fan of communicating that even if at first that person on the receiving end is not receptive. But we need to communicate them, right? Because otherwise we're expecting someone to know something or infer something that we...

they have no knowledge of, right? And we're holding them to standards that are unfair because they haven't been informed. So we try to inform people, whether that's through a letter, I don't encourage doing that through a third party, that is oftentimes what you will see. Well, you go tell so and so, I can't do this, that, and the other thing. I'm like, no, we can't do that, that's not healthy. You know, it needs to come from you. And if it's not safe to do that in person,

Joey Pontarelli (52:50)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Kreed Revere (53:15)

where you feel that that's not gonna be heard, oftentimes writing, writing an email, writing a letter, a card, that kind of thing can do that. But it's in letting them need in order that you value the relationship. See, I think this is the piece that's missing when it comes to boundaries. People don't express that they

the relationship. They want it to be in a healthy way, right? And so people then get defensive because they feel like the relationship is at risk, they're no longer cared about, they're no longer wanted, and that this is all just going to go away.

Joey Pontarelli (53:36)

Totally.

Kreed Revere (53:46)

And so they get really defensive. And then we have all sorts of issues with the boundaries. So communicate that the relationship's important to you and that you want to be in relationship with them, but we all need to be emotionally safe in doing so. And then when this happens, then let's come back to the table and have a conversation around that. And that usually, you know, I have parents that bring me letters that say, so this is what my kid wrote and said. And I tell them.

Joey Pontarelli (53:51)

Hmm.

Okay.

Kreed Revere (54:14)

all of that's very reasonable. How did you feel when you got it? I was furious. I was so mad, right? And they're just very defensive. And so we work through that and we talk through why maybe the child's asked for these types of boundaries and to understand that. But I think sometimes boundaries can be weaponized. And that is my only caution is to try to work with them in a way that doesn't weaponize them against the other person because that's just going to make them defensive and not receptive to anything.

Joey Pontarelli (54:17)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, that can get real ugly real quick when it's, you know, used as a form of punishment. I remember seeing image of a newspaper and an obituary section, this was years ago. And it was for a mom who had died and the children, apparently like there was just a lot of that she had caused. And they said something really aggressively, like there'll be no burial, there'll be no services, like she's being cremated and that's it.

some nasty comments about like her past and her treatment of them, which, you who knows? Maybe it was honest, but it was like, man, that could be, it can turn real nasty real quick. So I think that's wise advice to kind of check yourself and to kind of be the bigger, stronger person when maybe you are tempted to, like you said, weaponize or use them as a form of punishment.

Kreed Revere (55:25)

I get it. When we're hurt, right, when we're hurt, we're just like, ⁓ my gosh, you can't do this anymore. This is crazy making, right? Like this has gotta stop. And again, that's usually coming from a dysregulated nervous system, and so we're just reactive rather than being responsive to the situation. And that's a large part of my work too, is helping people to learn how to be responsive rather than reactive to things.

Joey Pontarelli (55:26)

Yeah, me too.

Okay, that's really good. If we had more time, I would go into all of that. couple of final questions. we talked about before how you were kind of making a judgment on how mom or dad will react when we try to reconnect or communicate some things. Let's assume the relationship is estranged and we're trying to reconnect. And you said it's important to kind of understand how they're gonna react. Any tips on kind of figuring out...

or guesstimating how they might react. You had mentioned before maybe talking with people who know them or trying to understand like have they changed, things like that. But especially when you're at a distance, it can be really hard I'm sure to kind of figure that out. So I'm curious if you have any tips for someone who's like, man, I would like to reconnect with mom or dad, but I just don't know where they're at right now. How could they figure that out from afar?

Kreed Revere (56:32)

I am actually currently working with an adult child right now. That's kind of the scenario that we have going on. And I have encouraged her to send emails that are very short and checking in. Hey, ⁓ I'm curious about your thoughts about this or that or what have you. Wherever like a main sticking point was in the relationship to gauge and see. Number one, we're looking, is there a response at all?

Is there a response? Because if there's no response, then that's a different route we need to take, right? But if there is a response, what is that response? Is this person open and you feel like they're kind of curious, they've maybe done some work around something or they're working with someone and things like that. That's a safe way because it's an email. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (57:05)

Right.

Kreed Revere (57:22)

or sending a card or something like that in the mail versus a text and having access to your phone and those types of things, it feels a little more.

safe by email and I encourage that. Outside of that, again, it's difficult because if your parent hasn't reached out, when I'm working with my clients, I am encouraging them to write amends letters and we talk about apologies and things like this. So if you receive something like that, that's an indicator that they've made some.

steps forward and trying to figure some things out and do things differently, if you will. That kind of thing. it's a risk. I keep coming back to it's a risk. is no way of knowing unless you put yourself out there kind of thing. There are some safer ways of doing that. Like I said, the email, reaching out to someone, a professional person who could potentially reach out. A therapist usually can't because of

Joey Pontarelli (58:01)

Yeah, it is.

Kreed Revere (58:16)

their ethics and professional relationship. But a mentor or coach could potentially do that on your behalf to check in and see they're at, that kind of thing. Yeah, it's really hard. It's hard.

Joey Pontarelli (58:27)

Okay. Yeah, that

is hard. it brings me back to what we said before where, you know, there's these young people who are just in pain from everything that went to happen in their family. And they might, you know, have never communicated that just out of protection for their parents or self protection. so I love your encouragement to see if there might now might be the time.

for that and testing the waters. think that's really, I love that tactic of the emails and seeing if now might be the time and it might not be, but it might you can open up a little bit more. And I like the idea of like a letter where you could communicate, hey, this is what I experienced, what I went through. So, so good. Thank you for going into the weeds with all this. know it's super tactical stuff, but I appreciate Before we close down to two final questions, one,

I'm sure you've dealt with situations where maybe a parent has a mental illness. That's something that keeps popping up again and again for our audience. any particular tips or advice around navigating that relationship when the parent has a mental illness.

Kreed Revere (59:21)

acceptance of where the threshold is. Someone may not have the ability to meet you where you need to be met, right? So really in accepting that when it comes to a mental illness. And sometimes it's, have to, have, this is so hard. My heart is, I deal with this personally and professionally every day. It's very difficult.

to want and need something from a parent. And you can't get it because of a mental illness. It's really, really difficult. But we have to come to that place of accepting where they are at.

this is their capacity and again kind of do I have the wherewithal for me to be able to meet them on this level where their capacity is or do I not? And sometimes that can be an evolution sometimes right now you can't.

down the road maybe you can with some healing work and things like that, right? So it's in understanding where the capacity lies because outside of that, I mean, we're placing ourself in a position to experience further harm, further injury, emotional harm and emotional injury.

then where is that going to lead us if we have family or you know how are we able to show up for our people in our world if we are sacrificing everything on this end to try to force something to happen that someone doesn't have the capacity to do. And that's not fair to them as well right. I just had this conversation with my sister a few weeks ago. It's like this is where dad's at and expecting him to show up differently.

Joey Pontarelli (1:00:49)

Right.

Kreed Revere (1:00:58)

expecting and asking too much of him. He can't, he doesn't have the capacity to meet you where you want him to be. So how can you come to a place of resolution and peace to meet him where he's at or to disengage, right? And that's, you know, that's up to her to make that call. So that, it's a tough thing. ⁓ And again, sometimes people can get some support around that and get into therapy and begin to work in

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:17)

Yeah.

Kreed Revere (1:01:25)

process through things. That is one of the things that happened and I'll be just honest and I don't know that I've ever really talked about this publicly but I've had that with me. I was in a very not mentally well place raising my children.

and coming into the estrangement is what catapulted me into therapy for doing my own inner healing work. And when I was able to do that, I've done a 180. My girls say are so not the person you used to be. And so when people, when there is a drive and a determination to do things differently, and I'm

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:55)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (1:02:01)

I'm not talking schizophrenia and things like this. I'm talking some of the lower level mental illnesses. People can change. I don't want to tell people to just shut the door think that it can never change. But I also understand the need to, I have to move on with my life. And right now this is where they're at and this is where I'm at and they're not meeting, they're not matching. Does that make

Joey Pontarelli (1:02:25)

absolutely. I think that's why it's, think so often in life know, maybe we speak out, we put boundaries in place, you know, forgive, we do all the things. And then it comes to a point where it's like, okay, the problem here is like, I'm expecting them to be someone different that they're, like you said, not capable of being. Now, of sure some people are hearing that.

may push back and be like, no, someone can always change. And I think there's some truth to that, but I think there are real disabilities that just like physical disabilities, someone can't physically do something. I think mentally, emotionally, there are those disabilities figuring out like what they're culpable for, what they're not, that's a tough conversation. have not mastered, I don't know, I couldn't draw a line in those cases, but.

But I think you're adjusting your expectation, recalibrating your expectation to match reality is really, really wise. You had mentioned that, yeah, you've had these beautiful transformations in your own life. I was curious if you'd share maybe a little bit more, especially maybe about your relationship with your daughters and then if you've, yeah, any cool transformations you've seen with your clients as well.

Kreed Revere (1:04:02)

I again, I've done a 180 I was very much an authoritarian parent. I mentioned like a law enforcement background and so it was my way or the highway and there was no room for emotional anything. Everybody was cut off at the knees when it came to anything emotional except me. I was allowed to have emotions and anger and all the things but no one else in the family could. So my children grew up with that and then

The estrangement happened and my entire world collapsed unlike anything I had ever experienced in my life. As a matter of in my notes this morning on my memoir I was saying I had always said everyone in my life, I knew everyone at some point in time would leave me and my life except my kids. I just felt my kids would never leave me and then they did.

flipped my world upside down. I went through eight years of therapy and four years into our reconciliation we were estranged for a year with one daughter and two years with another daughter. I had grandchildren involved with this and so there were broken relationships with that and I mean it was just, it was a whole ⁓ mess. In the grand scheme of estrangements that's a pretty short estrangement, a year or two years in the work that I do. So...

We reconciled and the first four years or so I kind of walked on eggshells and didn't know what to do and was scared to death that it was going to happen again and all the things. And then one of my daughters learned that I had a podcast and she had listened to it. And she said, I think we all need to sit down and talk. I think there's been some misunderstandings. And I was like, wow.

okay, let's have this conversation. And it was the first time we had talked about the estrangement. So that was four years after reconciling and that...

Joey Pontarelli (1:05:41)

Wow.

Kreed Revere (1:05:51)

enlightened me in ways that I was like, my gosh, this is, how did I not know this? How did I not recognize these things? So I immediately took all of that back to the therapist, continued my work and that type of thing. And today I have a beautiful relationship with both of them. It is not anything like it was in the past and that's another piece to this work is a lot of people want, they tell me, I just want things to get back to the way they were.

I just want it to be like it used to be. I'm like, can't. I can't. Your entire world has changed as theirs has.

And so when we come back, and it was unhealthy if it got us to this place where we're at, an estrangement. So we want to come back into a healthy place. And so our relationship, my relationship with my daughters looks vastly different than it did before the estrangement. And it's beautiful. Yeah, it's not perfect. We still have our struggles, but we know how to come back and do repair now when there's been a rupture. There's curiosity, there's hay.

This might be hard to hear mom, but this is what I'm sensing and what I'm feeling. Am I on the right track? And they call me on my stuff and I don't get defensive anymore. I'm like, oh my gosh, thank you for letting me know. I had no idea. Now I have something with kind of thing.

So that was my story. have one particular, gosh I have several stories here. When you sent me this question I was like, my gosh, how do I narrow this down? a client, she came to me after her second estrangement with her daughter. And she was just a complete.

Joey Pontarelli (1:07:09)

Beautiful.

You

Kreed Revere (1:07:28)

mess. I mean, sobbing, couldn't hardly talk through our first couple of sessions and she just kept saying, I just don't understand how I got here. I don't understand. She's never going to talk to me again. How do I go on with my life?

things. And so we've worked together, we've worked together for about two years now and last summer she reconciled with her daughter. They've been reconciled, well this month is a year ⁓ now and the last reconciliation happened for about six months and before they restrained again. And ⁓ she is doing life vastly different with her daughter and I love hearing she's in my Reconciled Moms support group.

updates all the time and you know she was over for what was it Mother's Day they had an occasion at Easter time she was over there for Easter and she has a relationship with her grandkids now and she talks about how she's curious about her daughter.

Joey Pontarelli (1:08:19)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (1:08:26)

She asked her questions, know, help me to understand what was that like for you? I know my side of that, you know, when her daughter brings up things from the past, she's like, I know my side of that, but I wanna learn what your side was like. And that is the work. And so now her daughter tells her, has told her multiple times over this last year, I can tell you've done the work, because you show up differently today. You're curious about my life.

Joey Pontarelli (1:08:51)

Wow.

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (1:08:53)

and

it, I get emotional about it because it is such a gift to give to your children to be interested and curious about their life. What makes them happy? What makes them sad? What do they think about on a day-to-day basis? What are their fears? How can you show You know, I think all the time, think parents, gosh, if you knew your kid was sick, physically ill,

Joey Pontarelli (1:08:57)

It's beautiful.

Kreed Revere (1:09:16)

You would take them to the hospital, you would take them to the doctor, you would go to the ends of the earth to find a stop whatever this was that was hurting them and causing them pain. The same thing happens emotionally. We have to go to the ends of the earth, from my perspective, to try to figure out a help this pain to stop for them, if at all possible.

We may not have all the parts and pieces to that, right? There may be other players involved, but owning our part in that, it's a gift unlike anything you could ever give to your child. Ever. Ever, ever, ever. Sorry.

Joey Pontarelli (1:09:51)

Beautiful. No, don't

be sorry. That's beautiful. And I love the transformations that you've seen in your own life and in the lives of your clients. And I think it's it's so hopeful, right? It's that, you know, we're not doomed to continue on having these strange relationships, these relationships that have rifts without, you know, repairs, all that stuff. so yeah, no, think it's really beautiful. So thank you for sharing. Thank you for coming on the show. ⁓ A couple final things.

One, if people wanna learn more about you, where do they go and what exactly do you offer if someone's interested in working with you?

Kreed Revere (1:10:21)

Thank you. They can go directly to my website, theestrangedheart.com. I have a podcast by that ⁓ same name, The Estranged Heart. And I offer one-on-one coaching. I have a membership group for estranged moms and reconciled moms. And so I do a lot of work there. We have book clubs inside those memberships. We have webinars. It's always about learning and unlearning and learning and growth and evolution. And that is the focus of the work that I do with folks in healing.

generations, we want to the ruptures that happen within these and learn how to be healthy with one another, not just physically, but emotionally as well.

Joey Pontarelli (1:11:01)

Love it. So good. Well, again, thank you Creed for coming on the show and want to give you the final word. What final encouragement, advice, or maybe even a challenge would you issue to everyone listening right now, especially, you know, children of divorce, children of dysfunction who are estranged from mom or dad, what would you say to them?

Kreed Revere (1:11:18)

Reconciliation begins with reflection. We can't move forward without understanding where we've come from. We can, but it's not generally in a healthy way, in a sustainable way. So being able to reflect and figure out where you came from and how do I want to move forward. think keeping curiosity as your best friend.

and really getting curious about people as well as yourself and helping to understand you better so that you can come home to you because in the end, regardless of where your relationships lie, the relationship with yourself is first and foremost. In the work that I do, I teach that with the parents as well. I think for the adult children,

Be curious without correction. So offering options, suggestions, you know, that type of thing. hear, oftentimes, I hear adult children say, I'm not talking to you until you go to therapy. You've gotta fix this, whatever this is, right? And that's

It's a form of correction, like you're not right and you need to fix this. You need to correct this. Instead, mom and dad, I know I've been helped by therapy or by a mentor or what have you, and I know how it's changed my life. I'm wondering if the same thing could help you. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (1:12:28)

Mm-hmm.

Kreed Revere (1:12:41)

right? Offering that type of curiosity. I wonder, I do that often within the work that I do. I do it with my kids. I'll simply say and people say, how do you do that? I'm like, this is exactly what I do. I wonder what it would be like if I had support that someone could help me work through this.

It's almost like without that direct eye contact, it's like they, it's not an attack. It's not a judgment on them that there's something wrong with them. And if we can present it in a way that's curious, I wonder what it would be like, that kind of thing. So for them and for yourself, I wonder what it would be like to be in a healthy relationship with my... ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (1:13:10)

Hmm.

Kreed Revere (1:13:27)

could that look like? I think sometimes we'd spend a lot of time focusing on what isn't working and what it looks like when it doesn't work. Do we know what it looks like if it would be working? What would that look like? And then finally, my biggest thing is you're not broken. You're hurt. There's been pain and there have been challenges.

but you're not broken and you have the ability.

to step into your life. I know you have courage. It took courage to navigate this separation of your parents and this divorce and all the things. you're here with us today. You have the courage to step into challenging situations. And you will come out on the other side of this. If you have support, get yourself some support and work your way through it. Don't allow this life experience

to keep you stuck. Figure out a way to work through it so you can come out on the other side and then turn around and use that for good for someone else.

Joey Pontarelli (1:14:30)

One thing I'd challenge you to is that if you know someone who really needs to hear this episode, like a parent, a friend, or anyone, know, think about sending it to them. I'm not saying you have to, but think about sending them the link. You can say something like, hey, I listened to this podcast episode and thought it might help your situation, what you're going through. Or I heard this podcast episode and thought it'd be really good for us to like sit down and talk about it. Something like that. Again, you don't have to do that. Just a suggestion. That would be my challenge. But with that,

That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review this show. We really appreciate that feedback. And that also helps people find the podcast as well.

In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#153: He Grew Up Without a Dad. Here’s What He Learned | Tommy

In many places, we’re facing an epidemic of fatherlessnes. Fatherlessness not only leaves an invisible mark but it also shapes how you view yourself, how you handle your emotions, and how you love in relationships. So are fatherless children doomed?

Not at all. In fact, Tommy shows how to compensate for what you didn’t receive from dad and how healing is within reach. In this episode, we also discuss:

• His dad’s spiral into mental illness, homelessness—and why Tommy hasn’t seen him in over a decade

• The hidden ways father hunger shows up in dating relationships, causing us to seek what we never received from the wrong people

• The lies he carried for years: “I am alone” and “I have to earn love”—and the truth he found to break that grip

If you experienced any sort of fatherlessness, this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:03)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

My guest today is Tommy. Tommy is an unapologetic New Jersey native who grew up without a father, through the presence of father figures this passion he has for mentoring young people in an increasingly fatherless world.

As you probably know, in so many places in our world, we're facing an epidemic of fatherlessness. And fatherlessness not only leaves a wound like an invisible mark, but it also shapes how you view yourself, how you handle your emotions, and how you love in relationships. And so the question is, are fatherless children doomed? Not at all. In fact, Tommy shows how to compensate for what you didn't receive from dad how healing is within reach.

In this episode, we also discuss things like his dad's spiral into mental illness and even homelessness and why Tommy seen him in over a decade. The difficult balance between helping enabling someone who has a mental illness. We talk about the two extremes that we all fall with emotions how Tommy has found the healthier path.

We discuss all the ways that father hunger shows up in dating relationships, causing us to seek we didn't receive from the wrong people. hit on what it's like to feel too messy for your friends and how Tommy stopped believing that. And the lies that he carried for years, thinking I'm all alone and I have to earn love and the truth he found to break that grip. And so if you've experienced any sort of fatherlessness, this episode is for you.

In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. Wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, I would just challenge you to listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip the God parts, still gonna get a lot from this episode. And with that, here's the conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (01:59)

Tommy, great to have you here, man. Welcome to the show.

Tommy (02:01)

Thank you so much for having me, Joey.

Joey Pontarelli (02:02)

know your story is ⁓ quite intense and I'm excited to dive into that and just learn more about everything But I'm just so honored that you would come on the show. as we usually do, I'm curious what you remember or what you were maybe told if you were super young, what was life like before your parents split?

Tommy (02:20)

I'm going off of entirely what I've been told because they split when I was not even a year yet. ⁓ think I was specifically I think it was about six months.

And so, maybe I can get into this a little bit more later, but there's actually kind of a part of my story of just the implications of like there being problems and difficulties before I was even conceived. And the act of faith my mom went through to even be open to the conception of me. And so, in a beautiful way in my life, know is, I very instinctively know my life's a miracle, every life's a miracle. But I think

that's also come with some baggage though of like the feeling of like you have a debt to pay of like making your life worth something or and so forth, you know? ⁓ But yeah, so I don't really know what life was like before. I've been told on good faith that it was good and it is a very holy and happy marriage. But obviously that only lasted so long.

Joey Pontarelli (02:55)

Hmm

Tommy (03:06)

Yeah, I want to make sure I'm not jumping ahead in the right order of questions, I suppose, but my parents' situation is unique in the sense that it wasn't like they were splitting because of fighting or disagreements. was, it kind of goes up the chandelier tree a little bit because my grandfather, unfortunately, was a alcoholic and very abusive. I know physically, I believe, it often comes to the verbal abuse as well. And I think my aunts, because they're daughters, she was more gentle with them.

⁓

in both respects and so I think they obviously have their own level of baggage and trauma they've dealt with but I think the boys unfortunately, my uncles and my dad, had more of brunt to pay so to speak in terms of like kind of the old fashioned 1950s, know, leather belt discipline and so forth. And so with that I think I unpack this a bit more later but it's not like I have this resentment toward my parents or difficulty with that.

It's very understandable and if I look at what happened to my dad's illness as a result of his trauma, it makes sense that they had to split. so they're civilly divorced but they're not annulled. They never saw an annulment. My mom didn't seek an annulment. But essentially my dad's got crippling OCD. It's actually a pretty common thing of obsessive compulsive disorder. And a lot of people do actually have some form of it. much more than simply like feeling like the need to tidy all the time or something like that.

those who are not familiar, OCD essentially is the irrational obsession, a fear, and in order to kind of ease that fear, you have a compulsion, which is like some kind of weird or again compulsive action in order to kind of ease that anxiety. So for my dad, he had issues for a lot of his life, but I guess was able to...

with it or kind of package it up or to know we're trying to find the right phrasing cope with it and obviously get married and and be okay and functional for several years to have four children ⁓ but I think night school and a lot of stress at work and other things kind of broke him and then I guess a lot of old habits and old trauma kind of came back rearing its ugly head and he just developed a lot of very obvious OCD and but to be honest I feel like there's a lot more because it seems like I've never heard of a

Joey Pontarelli (04:46)

Hmm.

Tommy (05:08)

case

of OCD as bad as his. To this think he's still homeless. he's kind of a paradox and a contradiction because on the one hand, he's constantly showering in the skin of germs like a hypochondriac, but on flip side, he's also hoarding because he's trying to recycle. This is a lot of strange habits he's built. And as a result, though, he's often booted as a rent. And so that's rendered him homeless.

Joey Pontarelli (05:10)

Wow.

Tommy (05:30)

Yeah, it's been hard to kind of from a distance know he's struggling and just trying to figure out that relationship, especially as I've become an adult with my own family and my children's relationship to their grandfather. So that's definitely more than what you asked initially. That's kind of some context.

Joey Pontarelli (05:43)

No, no, I love it. Let's go there. So thank you for sharing.

And that's kind what I was alluding to by the intensity of it. I had known some of these details from afar and, ⁓ and that's so hard. And I think you're right. When people hear OCD, they think like, I'm just kind of a perfectionist or something like that. But it's like, you were talking like clinical OCD here where it's like intense. And I've known a couple of people who've had it pretty bad, maybe not to that level you know, they had maybe a huge, obsession with germs. And so they would constantly like wash their hands to the point where it would like,

Tommy (05:50)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (06:10)

get really bad, like raw skin, things like that. So that's another example that I can think of. But curious, with kind of his current state, how much contact do you have with him if you're open to sharing? And then how do you navigate that whole tension between maybe wanting to help versus knowing that if you become like a crutch, then that will do more harm?

Tommy (06:11)

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're asking a question that unfortunately is still very present and still very much asked. And I think because, you know, the past five gotten married, I have two children now, and so it's transitioning from being a child to being a college student to being a young adult to being now kind of an independent husband and father. So yeah, so I think the...

We unfortunately had a very good system growing up and seeing him. It was on a regular basis. I I was much younger. It was like maybe twice a year, Easter and Christmas. Maybe three times would be more rare. It's typically twice a year. And then it kind of dwindled down to once a year. Easter was kind of the see him. And forgetting the reason. I know it was on his end. He just decided like, you know,

He was like, growing up you always say, his illness. We don't know why. He just said that he can't come. And so that was the last time I saw him was the summer I went to college. So it's been over a I've seen him.

Joey Pontarelli (07:24)

Wow.

Tommy (07:25)

I

have had very limited contacts. Like I talked to him over the phone at this point, it'd be almost four years ago. On the phone, I received a letter from him and I've sent him a couple of letters. But of his illness is that like he has no phone, he has no car, because he's also kind of, I don't think he's schizophrenic, he might be, but he's definitely paranoid. And so I did think about him a lot during COVID of

On

the one hand, the fear of germs, but on the flip side, COVID obviously was boxed with lots of conspiracy theories and the government and world takeover and all kinds of crazy stuff. I almost imagine him suffering from both of those, of like the fear of the government and the fear of so I wonder how he dealt with that. But the point being is that it's very difficult to get in touch with him. And so how approach it is

Joey Pontarelli (07:57)

Yeah.

Tommy (08:10)

I would love a relationship with him and for him to know my children, his grandchildren. I know from a distance it gives him lot of pride and joy from what we've done with our lives and now his grandchildren. my two children and actually my brothers, you they're expecting someone more on the way. But I there has to be boundaries and I think the big part of his illness is sort of trying to like violating boundaries. so have to very firm lines in the sand. And insofar as he can't do it or is not willing to

that then unfortunately have to take a step back.

But I think in an ideal world, and hopefully this can be a reality sooner than later, can be sort of negotiations if you will. I hate to use such a business term, but that's kind of how it's been in order to cultivate a relationship that's healthy but non-invasive because he would easily sort of overstep boundaries, unfortunately. And therefore, have my primary duties to my to make sure that, you know, grandpa is not just randomly showing up and expecting to kind of just crash in our house for months or

Joey Pontarelli (08:46)

Yeah.

Tommy (09:04)

who knows? mean there's been incidents of him having kind of a reality check of what's possible and what's not.

Joey Pontarelli (09:06)

Yeah.

No, thanks for going into all that and sharing. I think one of the things I notice in you, just even in the way you talk about your dad is, have a lot of compassion for him, which I know some people aren't there yet. Some people are just like still feeling maybe a lot of anger a parent who neglected them or, you know, walked away whatever the case was. I'm sure there's those emotions there for you too. But that's like, I think a really beautiful lesson for all of us is saying that.

Tommy (09:33)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (09:38)

I think there is a way almost always, if not always, to develop some sort of compassion. Like I heard a quote recently that said, it's like, it's hard hate close up. Like if you really get to know people and like learn their stories and realize like, wow, they had a really difficult life and they had trauma of their own had this mental illness. And like, that was similar with my dad, like a lot of up. He, you know, has bipolar disease

Tommy (09:42)

Mm.

Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (10:01)

been really hard on and I cannot imagine, like, I don't know what I would do personally if I had that disease. And so I think there's something really, I think, and beautiful about that and obviously that can lead to forgiveness and a lot of things. But at the same time, I hear you saying, you know, that doesn't mean that anything goes. Like you have to have proper boundaries, not just for you and your family, but also for his good, because it wouldn't be good for him to be able to, you know, maybe get away with things or do things that would ultimately, you know, harm him.

Tommy (10:03)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, was definitely,

I think, again, I can speak more about this later, but my mom handled it by and large incredibly honorably and I admire her so much for her strength and her witness, even just to her faithfulness, fidelity, and having such a hard life herself as a single mother. It's it's unbelievable. there was like, yeah, it's difficult where it felt like opening a dad box was like a huge, you know, Pandora's box of emotions. And so it felt like the routine was sort of like, you know, on the once or twice a year visit where we

Joey Pontarelli (10:51)

Yeah.

Tommy (10:55)

saw dad on the way back home from Pennsylvania, back to New Jersey, we'd have our dad conversation that was like, you know, the box is opened and it was like exhausting, you know, and then close the box. And so there wasn't really open conversation about reality. And I think there's, you know, different personality temperaments in my family, why that would perhaps be the case, or guess preferences of, you know, not needlessly constantly stirring up emotions, which is completely makes sense. but I think I...

Joey Pontarelli (11:04)

Gosh. Hmm.

Tommy (11:20)

I've always been told my dad's a very good man, but he's a sick man. And so that's kind of the narrative I've always recognized and believed in. And I still believe that, and I know that. there's also a healthy balance to not paint him as a, I've also had to kind of almost go backward in my process of.

recognizing what's happened in my own childhood to recognize, know, is there no fault in my dad? Is it all trauma or is there some level of capability? And that's a hard line and I don't even know how to draw that line because I don't know, know, what is his own free will versus his illness? And that's kind of one those situations with my story, but every story is different, so.

Joey Pontarelli (11:43)

Yeah.

Yeah, no, that's a big question. And I think it's harder and harder to like draw that line the more intangible the like disability is. Cause I think like with things, I don't know if someone like lost their legs, it's like, well, obviously they can't walk. And there's some like, like literal physical limitation that you're going to get hit in the face with, or they have cancer so they never have much energy. So they can't really like play with their kids. Like, so it's kind of a tangible, at least visible,

Tommy (12:01)

Yeah.

Yeah. Right.

Joey Pontarelli (12:19)

way of explaining their behavior, but with mental illness

especially, I've seen it's like, my goodness, everything on the outside can appear fine. It can appear like you're like anyone else, but you are just as sick as that person with cancer.

Tommy (12:25)

It's so great. Yeah.

Yeah, no, that's a great way of putting it. It's felt great. I think actually in my process of accepting it in a deeper level, think in a weird way, I grew up a healthy but at times unhealthy level of...

Ownership like yeah, I think sometimes we overstep the line of like we're the family that has a really hard story But we own our cross we embrace our cross and we're mature and we're happy and we're in Sometimes I think I I want to be tread lightly here to not sound like I'm disparaging any of my family, but

But yeah, I think that sometimes I with that ownership, there came like a lack of permission to kind of struggle sometimes or to feel like a little anger or frustration or deal with those messy emotions. And it's like, nope, this is our cross and we accept it and it can sometimes turn into a kind of stoicism. the point I guess I'm trying to make is that with mental illness, it is very gray.

and it's hard to draw lines and I think sometimes the narrative, especially for me because I was the was very black and white. Like he's good, but he's sick. And it's like, okay. And I think that's a great narrative to tell a two-year-old, a four-year-old, even a six, seven, whatever. But I think that narrative kind of stayed. And as I'm in college or then even as a young adult, it's like, well, is that, it's that black and white.

Joey Pontarelli (13:23)

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tommy (13:42)

I think there's a beauty of simplicity to that and to have a simple faith of just, you know, believe not to be the case. But then there's also been instances that have occurred where I see some gray area to process that. And think for that has to be a level don't want to say wiggle room, but just an acceptance that.

ultimately is merciful and compassionate but also allows for the messiness of emotions and let that iron itself out as opposed to sort of like well, it's across if that's is and then we start to kind of bury things or the They'll still be there to process maybe the decade later, but there there's unprocessed emotions will still be there

Joey Pontarelli (14:14)

Wow. No, you're bringing up so many great points. I'm taking tons of notes here. So a few things. I want to talk about how your mom handled things in a second to just kind of like finish painting the picture of life was like for you. And then we'll kind of go fast forward in the story. But before getting to that, one point I heard from a psychologist was, just this tendency that we have between maybe brooding over like emotions and difficulties in life much, right? We get caught in them. We are constantly thinking about them, talking about them. That sounds like that was not the problem.

Tommy (14:25)

Mm.

Hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (14:41)

in your family, in your life. On the other hand, we have people who, yeah, yeah, like on the other hand, we have people bottle things up and never talk about things. It's like, yep, that thing happened years ago and we never even mentioned it. So brooding and bottling, neither great and healthy, but yeah, when it comes to stoicism, I wanna touch on that a little bit. in your childhood or even over the years.

Tommy (14:41)

Mm. Mm-mm. Yeah. Talk stoicism.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Joey Pontarelli (15:03)

Yeah, what's been your relationship with, I don't know, difficult emotions and things? You alluded to this already, but I'm curious if stoicism looked at something like good and virtuous, which maybe there is virtue in it, or did you handle all these difficult emotions, especially since maybe you didn't see that modeled super well?

Tommy (15:06)

No, No.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean joke now, know, it's like I grew up in a...

Irish family which is kind of like a perfect mix of bottling things up or you know, like there's actually Laughed but it was like a conversation I have my uncle I was like in high school at this point I maybe eighth grade I think I was in high school and he's like, yeah and your uncle Kevin and he's gay and and I was like really? He's like you didn't know that I was like no not disparaging that but at all certain big family things. I just never was told, you know, just I

Joey Pontarelli (15:25)

Yeah.

you

Yeah.

It's like kind

of huge and you're like, I'm just learning about this right now.

Tommy (15:49)

Yeah, yeah.

I can laugh about it now, of course. actually article about this a magazine one time, and I think that writing that article itself was a bit of a process for me, which was good.

And I think the theme of the article that I actually hit on was this very question of this relationship between sort toxic stoicism that sort of says, well, it is what it is, deal with it, move on. And then the flip side of a brooding and bottling, like that dichotomy. I think I called it a, what did say? We're just the victim of a mentality.

And on the flip side, stoicism that's gone too far. think, I won't say stoicism, but a serenity is good. Obviously, Lord give me the, you know, the serenity prayer, Lord give me the, how's it go? The strength to change the things that I can, patience to accept the things that I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference. You know, I'm paraphrasing more or less what it

there's also a sense of accepting the things that you can't. think with stoicism, of problem is that it's correct.

there are many things in life you can't change. But the problem though is that it then, it doesn't have like a more of an interpersonal recognition of your own emotions and the validity of those. And so just because your emotions and your rationality are distinct not mean emotions rationally is not needed, you know?

Joey Pontarelli (17:01)

Mm-hmm.

Tommy (17:01)

I think just legitimate, but a necessary process in understanding our emotions and their allowing reason to of comb through But then, goal has to be projected towards something, has to have a trajectory a line, which acceptance.

and allowing that wound, that cross heal you, to transform you, to be part of your story. I think for my it's a little too, what's the word? Yeah, think tended toward like, yep, it's part of our story, we're stronger for it, we're better for that's definitely true. And I was thinking from the youngest sibling you was the back end of that, where perhaps I was kind of lumped in with everyone's story

emotions hadn't yet fully processed perhaps. I think that's the one extreme. On the flip side though, of course you have this brooding, this sort victim mentality. And the biggest problem with victimhood is that requires a villain. And you mentioned before, what if you get cancer leg's chopped off or it's amputated or you get into a car accident. a whole number of things that can happen that are tragic, that are not moral evils, but are natural evils. lose sight in whatever, lose sight in one eye.

Joey Pontarelli (17:46)

Yeah

Tommy (18:02)

to blame, really you just either blame nature or you blame God. There's no one really to blame. And so if you don't have a villain, the victim can't really go anywhere. And so ultimately they say in forgiveness and in acceptance, the person who has the most liberation is the victim, forgiver, not the forgiven. And so I think in that sense,

Joey Pontarelli (18:17)

Hmm.

Tommy (18:20)

You have to have that tension proper of recognizing the validity of your emotions, not allowing those emotions to tie you down forever. And the flip side acceptance or stoicism, it's to move on to recognize these are real things and I can't change them, but not to make that marching order to not think about it and to kind of bury them, because burying things doesn't actually do anyone any good.

Joey Pontarelli (18:39)

Mm.

Yeah, no, so good.

made me think of the psychologist I mentioned before who kind mentioned the brooding and the bottling, Dr. Susan David. She's a Harvard psychologist and she wrote a book called Emotional Agility. And she of outlines emotional agility. It's been really helpful for as kind of like the ideal. says it's not, she kind of shies away from the term emotional intelligence because it sounds fixed. Like you how to better master and navigate your emotions.

But she basically says emotional agility is your ability to face and feel your emotions. Like we're not running from them. We're not hiding from them. We're not stuffing them away. but then choosing your response in a way that aligns with your deepest held beliefs, which we'd essentially call virtue. And so like her definition though, cause I think there's something in that it's like, okay, no, we're not just like brushing them away. We're facing them. feeling them. because I think what the problem with so is that I see.

like when you were talking, it became more is that it doesn't like allow any sort of like grieving as one component to it. It's like, no, you gotta just keep moving, keep moving, keep moving. think that's a problem. And I think that actually these people are more stuck in the long yeah, I think focus on emotional agility and kind of the two components being feeling it then still using your will, your intellect to choose like what's good, what.

Tommy (19:37)

Yeah.

does.

Joey Pontarelli (19:54)

the good next action, next step, even in the miswell-bit.

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Tommy (20:35)

I think also, you know, I'm a Catholic and part of the Christian, the Christian narrative, if you will, is, ethos is probably a better word to use, is to allow suffering, suffering is inevitable. When Christ came, He didn't take away suffering, and that kind of shocked a lot of people at the time of like, I thought the Savior was going to take everything away, and didn't take away suffering, He just transformed suffering into meaning, and gave it meaning, it shows how to suffer, so to speak.

Joey Pontarelli (20:50)

Hmm.

Tommy (20:55)

you know, he also, throughout the Gospels, Christ is healing people, but first through sin, by forgiving their sins, and then like, can you make me not paralyze anymore? I can fix your natural evil, but the moral evil and forgiveness is the more important thing to heal. And I the victim, the...

Suffering becomes a debt to pay off like someone needs to pay this debt. That's not mine and that's legitimate a lot of suffer when it's not our fault like why am did I grow up without a father my whole life and many people why my parents have an ugly divorce when I was in high school or whatever And that's a legitimate question then like who is gonna like pay that debt so to speak and you can get stuck in that and not allowing a suffering kind of form the flip side with a stoic or I should say toxic stoicism It takes that suffering and kind of cast

decide is irrelevant. then, but neither actually embracing the suffering and allowing that suffering to mean something and then to grieve it, but then also to allow it to transform you. think, know, ⁓ Avi Crook spes unica, hail the cross, or only hope, is a sentence in which, you know, Christ suffered the most, but also showed us the meaning of and allows us to look to the cross, not in a kind of a depressing or...

Yeah, glorifying of suffering way, but in a way of recognizing that we are still in a veil of tears, but there is hope, and that hope is in heaven, and suffering can transform us to actually make us even stronger pilgrims as we make our way on our journey. And we won't be on skates, but are

what's the word, yeah, crosses or something like that, scars that actually, if properly embraced in a healthy way can actually strengthen us and not actually hinder us at all.

Joey Pontarelli (22:26)

Wow, so good. And thought of that, you know, Jesus could have just taken away is, kind of wild. Like at least he, you know, has like the power to do that, but he chose not to. So there must be some wisdom, some in it, which is kind of wild to think about or some good that can be brought out of it, I should say. Yeah, no, it's, it's wild. I think the more I think about, you I don't know, just life in general, it's like, we're not really here for very long on earth one.

Tommy (22:37)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (22:51)

in the grand scheme of things and two, we're pretty much guaranteed to suffer. Like I even think of it now, like with life, you know, I have a wife, I have two kids, another baby on the way at this point and thank you. Yeah. And, it's awesome. And I love it. And you know, when things are going well, like we're in like a good season, like kind of on an up spiral, it's like, this is great. It would be nice if it was like this way forever. And then there's kind of the sobering reality. It's like, well, there might be a call one day.

Tommy (22:55)

Yeah.

Congrats, wow.

Yes.

Joey Pontarelli (23:17)

that something really bad happened. There might don't know, who knows, something that I might not even be able to stomach at some point. I don't go there often, but it's kind of this reality that like, no, no, life is hard and suffering is inevitable. what you just mentioned, I think, is the only reason there's any sort of hope. Otherwise, it's like everything's meaningless.

Tommy (23:36)

Yeah,

I mean that's have to give Nietzsche credit, you know where he was consistent at least philosophically where he You know says God is dead But then the conclusion is meaninglessness or to kind of like will to power kind of like tread through the chaos Together and try to blaze your own trail It's at least philosophically consistent, but it is depressing some people

are saying there's no greater narrative to life, there's no greater meaning to life, just kind of postmodernism in a nutshell.

But then don't want to accept the fact that life is But then they're also prescribing there's not really a greater arching meaning to, or arc to history itself, or life itself, or existence itself. and so yeah, this is where I think there's the accusation that religion is kind of just a medication to kind of make sense out of things. Or you can believe that there's also some truth there, that it's not just a band-aid or an Advil pill or something, but it's in fact a recognition that there's something, a greater horizon beyond your immanent

and present suffering and therefore that can actually have a transformative and a relevance to this chapter in your book of life and that this chapter will end and then a new chapter will begin and there'll be a reason and relevance and transformation from that chapter.

Joey Pontarelli (24:41)

Love that. Yeah, you make me think of Victor Frankel to who I've mentioned a lot in this show But I love his stuff and how you know, he just contradicted Freud Freud who said that all the only thing we want is humans as pleasure Because you know life is fleeting and we just want to fill ourselves with the most pleasure we can But Freud, know came out very strongly contradicting him saying no That's not what we want more than I think the thing we want more than I think is meaning as a you know Deep reason to live that's bigger than ourselves. And I mean he said that when our lives are

Tommy (24:44)

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (25:08)

avoidive meaning that's where we're most tempted to this like mindless pleasure. think it's so true. And yeah, and I love what you're saying about all of free to interject any final thoughts there, but I had one further thought about stoicism and I remember through kind of my family's breakdown. I remember kind of being suspicious and skeptical of like emotion

Tommy (25:21)

Yeah.

Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (25:30)

not to get too deep into Catholic theology here, kinda misinterpreted St. Ignatius on like, when he was just talking about like consolation and desolation, did anyone mention, listening, know, obviously we all go through periods in life where things are good. And you know, we're, and I'm simplifying this a ton, but when, you know, we're kind of in a good state, we're in a good emotional state, and then we also go through stages in life when things are like really dry and desolate and hard. And so more or less, I thought the goal was to be like somewhere in the middle, kinda like, know, like a stoic.

Tommy (25:38)

Mm.

Hmm. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (25:56)

And I remember just feeling like really empty and not really, ⁓ life was very bland. Cause when I was trying to kind of not avoid the highs, but also avoid the And then I remember visiting my brother who was studying in Austria and just experiencing like the beauty of creation and like having a great time with other people and like traveling and experiencing other cultures, like good food, all that stuff. And I was actually like in the end of high school. It was kind of a crazy situation. I was able to go visit him, but

Tommy (26:02)

Hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (26:21)

Anyway, long story short, I just realized was no way for me to live and that there's actually a lot of depth and beauty to life and a lot of meaning that can be found. And that's kind of the way I've been trying to live my life ever since. But it was a big transformation for me and maybe I'm not articulating it super well, but it almost like reality got color added to it when it was kind of black and white, or at least I thought that was the idea.

Tommy (26:35)

Yeah.

No, it sense.

Yeah.

Well, I think I heard this analogy for prayer, but I think it applies to life at large. And for prayer, you know, some people say, well, do you, are you in love with the Lord or are you in love with the feeling that you think you get from the Lord? Or it's a very common thing from.

churchgoers or Catholics especially, like I don't get anything out of the mass or don't get anything out of going to church, of indicates a sense that you're going the expectation that I need to receive something and if I don't feel then it's not worth my so there's like a dichotomy there of like, okay, do we just need to kind of trudge through and just, you know, do the things we need to do and that's it. And that kind of gets back to the kind of talk stoicism of just sort of like, your due diligence and that's it and feelings that have complete irrelevance or do do you chase the sentimentality?

and

the feeling and so forth. And that's also a problem. this is an analogy for prayer, but I it applies to life where need to have form and fire. Like form meaning discipline and getting up and going your feelings with the wind. The wind blows in your favor or it blows against you. But either way, you stick to your disciplines and what you know you ought to you make those moments, as Ignatius does say, I work at Judicial High School, so I've done some Ignatian formation,

Joey Pontarelli (27:47)

Nice.

Tommy (27:49)

You want to make good decisions in consolation when you feel clear headed. And when you're in a bad state and you're worried or you're anxious, you should not make big decisions because that's when you're like, quick, change things. then, yeah, so when you stick to your disciplines, especially when it gets difficult, but then it doesn't stop you from recognizing the goal that you still want to feel and you still want to consoled, is probably a better word to use, from prayer. And the goal of prayer ultimately is intimacy with the Lord. And so for life, I think there's the same thing.

Joey Pontarelli (27:59)

Hmm.

Tommy (28:17)

of a happy life that looks like Instagram perfect and so forth, but we all know that's not realistic. And so do you just like, just say, screw it all and I'm just gonna live life and pay my bills and death and taxes are the only two inevitable things and that's the narrative of life? Or do you recognize your duties and trudge through those difficult moments and chapters of life?

Joey Pontarelli (28:20)

Yeah.

Tommy (28:33)

but still never stop trying to make sure that you experiencing, you know, everyone lives, what's the cheesy phrase? but not everyone lives or something. But it's the same idea of how you know, stick to your disciplines then still cynical and sort of like accept a sort subtle despair of like, it's how it goes, how life is. But still never stop living life to the fullest. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (28:41)

Yeah, something like that, yeah.

Love that.

No, it's really good. I mean, I see that in you and knowing a little bit about, you know, your family and I definitely am trying to live that out and my family too. So I do think it's possible. see people do it and I think there's a lot of like joy and beauty there for sure. Yeah. And I've heard, I think it was Dr. Ted Suri who kind of similarly talked about like loving your spouse, about how you're not always going to feel it. You need to like will it.

But it's also true that hopefully there's a motion that comes along with it as well. So I like that balance.

Tommy (29:23)

Right, that's a

really good parallel there. that like, yes, philosophically speaking, love is located in the will and not in the passions and not in the emotions. But then people take that too far. It's like, true love is in the will. It's just like, will you marry me? And it's like, well, that's not very romantic. You still wish and hope that there's a parallel, if you will, between the will.

Joey Pontarelli (29:36)

Yeah

Tommy (29:47)

and the passions, right? So like the passion should be a reflection as opposed to a driver.

Joey Pontarelli (29:52)

I like that.

Tommy (29:52)

And so, know,

love should be a sentiment that accompanies what is technically primary, which is what you choose. You what you choose ultimately is the measure of your love. So sometimes you choose the difficult but the higher good when you don't feel it. you shouldn't just be like living life just like begrudgingly doing everything that apparently is good without a sense of seeking harmony among your whole human faculties of intellect, passions, and will.

Joey Pontarelli (30:01)

Hmm.

I love that. Yeah, hopefully you get alignment there and ⁓ yeah, I found like your lot of times your like emotions your passions like can follow your will to so it's like if you You know if I'm not like feeling crazy in love with my wife if I act You know as a man who loves and who is in love then those things what will follow I could talk to you forever about this stuff. anything else you'd add about like I guess childhood or growing up in terms of Yeah, just what that was like just to finish that picture of your

Tommy (30:19)

Hmm.

Yeah

Joey Pontarelli (30:43)

you know, kind of child rearing.

Tommy (30:44)

Yeah, I I think I would just reiterate that I'm deeply grateful for the, I think, mostly totally accurate picture that my a good man, but he's a sick man. I think that that narrative was at times too simplistic and therefore as a result led to a feeling of...

a lack of permission if you will to process the mess or like well, know and to and I think I think anger as a soul of responses is not correct having seasons of anger questioning or confusion is totally healthy to be

I think that's, I'm kind of speaking to the more of a stoic mentality of like, this is what it is and it's good we move forward. And I was by and large the best way to kind of grow up and to recognize and love my dad from a distance.

But of course there were questions that popped up as I got older of even just holes and not knowing lot of big details of my dad and so so I think everyone's story is different, everyone's process for processing is different. so I think there just needs to be permission and that goes back to the same thing we've been talking about of...

having a sort of a mercy or acceptance of an ugly, or not ugly, but a messy process, while still recognizing the ultimate goal is acceptance and moving forward and being transformed by those things. But not allowing that to be premature yeah, there's a book, The Body Keeps a Score, which talks about the physicality of things, but there's a sense of emotions are needing to be processed whether you like it or not, and you can pretend like you're not emotional or you're fine, but then that's just like just putting a timeline in the bottle and eventually it'll

Joey Pontarelli (32:08)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Tommy (32:17)

out later.

⁓ So it's just better to recognize the need to process those things in due time.

Joey Pontarelli (32:23)

That's good. How have you processed things, would you say? I know we've maybe touched on it a little bit, but I'm curious. Yeah, what's been helpful, I guess, for you in terms dealing with all that stuff and especially the emotions.

Tommy (32:33)

I think there were incidents in my life manifested that were, I guess, want to say strange, but were revelatory. And I realized, like, hmm, like what's, or it wasn't me, it was actually in one case a spiritual director who kind of helped me see a greater narrative going on.

So for instance, like when I went to college, I dated a girl my freshman year, which was by and large a really good relationship. I think there even to my own knowledge,

and a lack of awareness of some deeper things I was seeking actually in a father that I was actually trying to seek wrongly obviously in a girlfriend. that's not, I'm not paying the entire picture, but there is these kind of undertones. so when she broke up with me and I was still struggling and processing it way, way later, like even like a year, especially was like, whoa, okay, that's definitely not this girl. Like it's hard to be broken up with obviously.

but it's definitely something else going on. we kind of unpacked that it actually was still stuff for my dad. actually the fact that my grandfather, who was basically the closest I had to a father in my life, passed away before I went to college. And I had kind of like a family habit, just buried it, didn't really process it. I felt like I mourned it, but didn't actually really mourn his passing and realizing how huge that was to lose him. And to lose him at a crucial time in my life when I would have began asking him those deeper questions of life, of what it means to man and so forth. My older brother had that opportunity

and I'm obviously not envious, I'm very grateful he had that, but there's definitely like undertones of little jealousy of desiring the same for myself that he got this whole summer of just hearing my grandpa's wisdom poured into him, I didn't get that. you know, so losing him at that time was really pivotal for me.

And so that's one example out of a couple of recognizing this, okay, there's still stuff I have to process here. so in this particular relationship in college, think there was, you know, one thing I would highlight is that she was definitely not apt to give compliments that she didn't mean, you know, in this sense, there was a sense of a parallel of, know, the father figure, know, when he makes a sense of compliment, he means it. I'm not, you know, saying she was like masculine, but I am saying that there was this,

Joey Pontarelli (34:34)

Yeah.

Tommy (34:34)

⁓

That was an attractive quality of sort of like, she means what she says. also meant when we broke up, when she said certain hurtful things, those carried a lot of weight. Just the same with compliments carried a lot of weight. So yeah, so obviously I would...

Joey Pontarelli (34:43)

Hmm.

Tommy (34:46)

highlights a lot of good things from when I came out of that, but I also am very grateful actually for that experience by which I uncovered unfinished work and my own masculine heart. and also I think that's also where my prayer life really soared because I felt like I was just totally naked and had nothing left. I also realized how bad I was in making male friendships at college. So that really, I cleaned up my act there I poured way too much into this relationship my freshman year. I think that was...

Joey Pontarelli (35:07)

awesome.

Tommy (35:10)

I can highlight a few things, that's the one big thing I want to highlight is like a pivotal moment from my life of recognizing, okay, wow, there's a lot of, like father wounds that are not wounds of abuse, thanks be to God, or wounds of other things, but wounds of absence. And I've had powerful moments in prayer the Lord actually didn't even speak to me, he was sort of present to me, and recognizing him speaking, yeah, kind of an answer to prayer of presence.

as opposed to some kind of you know, lie that I needed to be healed from or so forth. So yeah, there's more to say obviously, but that's think one that is pivotal for me that I highlight.

Joey Pontarelli (35:39)

That's

Yeah, I know that's really helpful love how you mentioned mentors and just how important they were. We'll get to that in a little I think that's just so, so important. That's been so helpful and healing for me But it's so interesting you bring up this idea of like kind of going to the woman something you never got from dad. And I've been there and I know, you know, I'm sure you've read John Eldridge and wow that hard and

Tommy (35:59)

Yeah, all the heart and

Father by God.

Joey Pontarelli (36:03)

Father by,

Father by, yep, totally. Like great books, anyone who hasn't read them and who just wants to, even like women listening, if you want to understand men, John Eldridge has good hand on the pulse. And for men, it's just, it will just give you a lot of insight into yourself. But I just remember him talking about like how, I might butcher this, but know, the man goes to the woman to like offer his strength, not to find it.

Tommy (36:24)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (36:24)

And

man, have I found myself going to the woman to find strength, to find affirmation, just find again those things, the affirmation, the love, the whatever that I didn't get from mom or dad growing up. so I think we need to find it somewhere. And that's the thing I think where some people maybe stop. They just say, go to the woman for that. And then they never really give you the other option. So it sounds like your relationship with God has been really big. prayer life really big. You mentioned your spiritual director. What other mentors kind of...

Tommy (36:28)

Yeah.

Mm. Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (36:50)

walked alongside you and just challenged you to grow.

Tommy (36:51)

Yeah.

Yeah, so is kind of like the key for my process was just how to handle my own emotions, which where I had a little... Because I am, you know, I admit it in broad daylight now, I am a sensitive person. we think of sensitive as an inherently negative thing, meaning like you're touchy or like, whoa, like your emotions are ⁓ overly active. But we noticed the root word there is the same as sense.

Joey Pontarelli (37:09)

Yeah

Tommy (37:16)

as sensible. Like, he's a sensible person. That's like a very high compliment. He's sensible. He's got a- a handle on things. And yet sensitive. in any case, I think I've had my own grappling with like thinking about what does it mean to have yeah, I guess very operative passions. We'll put it that way.

I have a daughter who's very, she has very operative passions. And so it's at times with temper tantrums, it's ugly and it's intense and messy. And at times when she's very affectionate and very thoughtful, it's just deeply beautiful. And so you just kind of see her little two-year-old heart. And so I think I had a process of coming to accept that about myself where I had unfortunately a lot of cases of self-loathing for that character trait or that ⁓ also heard a homey one time by priest talking about

this notion of masculine and femininity and we tend to think of like a spectrum. These are the masculine virtues, these are the feminine virtues, and if you possess a lot of these feminine virtues, like for instance I can paint pretty well, can do certain things, I feel like I've been good at listening, understanding what people tell me and trying to have insight or whatever. Certain things that seem like And then that seems like I must be pushing a line toward the feminine side, therefore I must be less masculine inherently.

And the point he was saying is like actually you need to recognize this more like buckets that Christ possessed all virtues. And he was the ultimate man, but also we should be aspiring toward all virtues as opposed to like the spectrum of like the tinge between male and female. ⁓ So I think...

Joey Pontarelli (38:31)

you

Tommy (38:39)

The breakup was very pivotal for me because the fact I felt raw and was at war with myself. ⁓ And I didn't feel anger at God or even her. I just felt anger toward myself. anger toward my own personality traits, in some ways, immaturity that I felt manifesting as I couldn't handle my emotions and I felt like a mess. I felt my friends were leaving me because I was too messy to deal with or was too much of a Debbie Downer. And that was a really hard time of feeling very lonely.

that's also the time that I had a lot of mentors come out of the woodwork and really see me and kind of in some ways put that hand on my shoulder saying I wasn't too much and that's yeah maybe I was a mess but I was a mess that's worth cleaning up. I will never forget a conversation I had with a mentor. Now he's Brother Maximilian, he's a Benedictine monk, but at the time he was a senior.

Joey Pontarelli (39:20)

I love that.

Tommy (39:27)

He talked about Lazarus and he's like, what did Christ do? And I was like, I knew the answer, I was kinda like, I don't know. And just like, and says like, I don't wanna forget, he's effing bald. Maybe it's scandalous that he was the efferent, he's a monk now. Wasn't it yet. But he was just trying to really make that point to me, that Christ had very intense emotions and they were ordered.

Joey Pontarelli (39:37)

Yeah.

Tommy (39:47)

And there's different moments where he had to go to pray or he was with people or so forth, but he was a man for all seasons. then emotion inherently is not an evil thing or a bad thing. he was trying to heal my own idyllic...

Yeah, idolization of like the machismo stoic who has no emotions, complete control. And that to me was like the man I was trying to achieve and I felt totally unable to. And my own grandfather actually was also very, yeah, very, I wouldn't call him like emotional, but very the more sensitive spectrum, if you will. ⁓ Like deeply artistic, but also an engineer and very mathematical too. And so he possessed a sense of, but he was the like, my grandfather was the one to say, stop and smell the roses, stop and listen to the music and like soak it in.

So think those are the moments that I really kind of accepted my own, this can be part of my masculinity in a tangible and good way. And so I think it was that student now, Brother Maximilian, another senior at the time, his name is also Tommy.

Joey Pontarelli (40:33)

Hmm.

this.

Tommy (40:39)

He

also had his own kind of struggles. ⁓ So there's a sense of camaraderie, but also mentorship, because he's older than me. And I would go to the porch and talk to him every Saturday. It was incredible. And ⁓ a professor at the college that, when I studied abroad, really kind of...

Yeah, I guess it really affirmed me in the sense of my own mind and intellect, which is also something that wasn't really affirmed before. ⁓ I come from a pretty smart family and I always felt like I was a dumb ox. so that was a healing moment as well, a feeling like the sense that my intellect is also good and wanted to talk to me in dialogue and so forth. So I'll stop there. I don't want to talk too much, but I think the point though is that mentors...

Joey Pontarelli (41:20)

Great.

Tommy (41:22)

when I recognized I needed to recognize that vacancy then have them kind of be invited into mentors like helping me and recognize they wanted to when I felt like otherwise my life was always a rental I had to kind rent mentors you know it's like okay I'll tell you my problems and I'll tell you quick so you can give me an answer quick and I'll be on my way because I know you know I'm not your son and I don't belong to anyone so that was something adults work through

Joey Pontarelli (41:44)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (41:47)

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Joey Pontarelli (42:50)

Wow, so much there. No, thanks for going through all that. I, see this trend in my story as well as yours of just like the affirmation we received from like, you know, typically older, wiser men, whether they're like much older than us or like you said, just like a few years ahead of us. something really powerful in that. And I don't know if I totally understand it fully, but like we crave that we need that. Like that's how we become men. That's how we kind of grow in our masculinity. And I love

Tommy (43:11)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (43:15)

what you mentioned too about how masculinity doesn't just look one way. Like have to like hunting and drink beer and like do all these like, know, things that you'd think maybe a typical guy would do. But there's like this possibility of like, yeah, this depth that you can have, which I think is amazing. I think of ⁓ Pope Saint John Paul II, just how he was, you know, such a deep intellectual, but he played sports, he hiked,

Tommy (43:39)

Correct.

Joey Pontarelli (43:40)

wrote poetry, acted, like all these things that maybe you would think of someone who's more like sensitive or the feminine virtues like you He was probably the most masculine person I can think of. I've met people who like Jocko Willink, if you guys are familiar with Jocko Willink, the Navy Seal. I've spent a little bit of time with him doing some training and yeah, he's just as like scary and manly as you'd think.

Tommy (43:54)

⁓ Yeah.

Excuse

Joey Pontarelli (44:01)

And he's,

Tommy (44:02)

me.

Joey Pontarelli (44:02)

but at the same time, the guy like plays music and he actually would write like poetry, studied English. So anyway, there's like this kind of dual component, not to go too far into that, but I think that like idea like for me, it was a spiritual director, a mentor, really he's a spiritual also he was, he's a married guy who just had training in spiritualism, he wasn't like a priest. So he was able to like kind of affirm me and guide me, mentor me in a way that maybe someone who didn't have the background wouldn't be able to.

Tommy (44:10)

⁓ Yeah.

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (44:29)

And man, I just experienced so much healing from, and so much like, ⁓ I felt like so much more of a man after like with him, working with him, getting his advice. And I think at the core of it was that affirmation.

Tommy (44:31)

Yeah.

Yeah, there was another person in Nashville that I, when I after college I went to Nashville and he actually now is a therapist and I was talking to on the phone when he was in training so I feel like I kind of stole probably thousands of dollars of free therapy just by talking to the phone with this was also figure in my life of just walking me through things and I when life gets very difficult and challenging.

Those are the moments you see the whole of not having a father. And I think for those who have divorced parents or separate parents, maybe they're close with mom and not dad or vice versa. Obviously in my case, it's dad. And so those are the moments you feel the lack of one pick up the phone and talk to him and not feel like it's a burden because he's your dad. And you know he wants to help you. But in those moments when you have a pivotal moment in your life and you don't know who to call, it's difficult.

But I think one final note to say on just mentors is same spiritual director I talked about before, called me one time to kind of do kind of a quasi phone spiritual direction and talk to me. But I was telling him what I was up to in college and I was, you know, being truly honest, I was seeking to brag, I was just telling him what I was up to, which was a lot. Like it was an absurd amount, like I was like around the clock. know, I'm managing this, I'm taking these classes, da da da, and.

He's like listening, like, that's all great Tommy. He's like, are still trying to prove yourself to your dad that's not there to see all this? And it was just like one of those moments of just like straight to the heart of the matter. I felt like almost like the phone reached out with a hand and punched me in the stomach. Because it was just like such a, he just, he saw right through the BS. Not that what I was doing was BS, but he saw the motivation of my excessive seeking of accomplishments.

Joey Pontarelli (46:07)

How, yeah.

Yeah.

Tommy (46:19)

I've done a lot of things in my life that I'm proud of, that's great, but there's definitely been an undertone of like, prove yourself. Like again, back to my earlier podcast, like in this podcast saying, I know my life's a miracle, like I shouldn't have been conceived. Like my dad was already showing signs of being unhealthy before I was even conceived. So my life's a miracle, so make it worth something. just the sense dad's there and my, you love me? Do you really love me? It's a sense of.

this ache of the heart to hear a father's voice to affirm. And when it feels like it's not there, then you find yourself with a consciously or subconsciously chasing an affirmation via accomplishments. So what was healing for me is just like trying to tone that down, but also to receive affirmation from men. And then that's also with our girlfriend that, you know, it can be great to receive compliments, but a girlfriend can never give you what you're seeking from a father, obviously.

Joey Pontarelli (46:56)

Wow.

Yeah.

Tommy (47:07)

And so when

I actually had mentors who were older than me, who were actual sages, compliment me or to affirm me in ways that were palpable, those are deeply healing. And actually I could feel different chaps in my life have kind of like slowing down a little bit I don't need to hustle so hard just to prove my lovability. And a lot of us find ourselves chasing this unknown destination just to feel loved by a parent or a wound, you're trying to heal. And it's important to diagnose that.

Joey Pontarelli (47:23)

Bye.

Hmm.

Yeah, no, so and harder than it seems. Now, like looking back, know, so you're so articulate about it, but I bet it was a journey to like even get to that point of figuring it out. So I'm totally with you there. I want to touch on quickly something you said about this idea of being like needy or messy or whatever language we'd throw around it. I think there's a lot of people who find themselves in this position, especially if you've gone through trauma and you have like

Tommy (47:36)

Yeah.

Hmm. Anyways.

Yes.

you

Joey Pontarelli (47:59)

Yeah, your emotions may be all over the place. You're struggling with maybe bad habits or your relationship seems not to be working out. And you could feel like this mess, this problem that maybe no one wants to deal with. If someone finds himself in that situation, I'm curious to your advice, like what should they do? Cause obviously on one of the spectrum, we don't want to like bring all of our problems to like one person and like dump it on them. Cause then they'll probably not be able to handle, especially if it's like the friend or a peer, so not really equipped to do that.

Tommy (48:20)

.

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (48:27)

the other end of the spectrum, it'd be really dangerous. Like we were talking about before to be like, no, I'm going to like do it solo. I'm going to go alone figure this out and, you know, put on a good face. So yeah, what's your advice to someone who maybe finds himself quote unquote needy or kind of kind of a helpless.

Tommy (48:41)

Yeah,

mean one obvious answer would be like therapy is I think it's there's been a lot of good movement and the stigma surrounding therapy that people are recognizing truthfully and properly that you know we need doctors for physical health why don't we need doctors for mental health and I think unfortunately the trajectory is that we're mentally very unhealthy more and more in the modern age and so we need a lot of doctors for our minds to help us kind of ⁓ so I think there are certain things that

are spiritual in nature that you need a priest for or a spiritual direction to pray. But there's also certain things that you can't just like pray away. There's like just legitimate psychological things you should consider a work through. I definitely know my dad can pray away his OCD or the abuse that happened to him or his previous history of anorexia. so I think that's one more obvious thing. But I think, but even that can be difficult because I've been to therapy.

a couple times, first two men I saw were, unfortunately, were very unhelpful. They were actually just kind of, let's figure out the problem, solve it, and just felt like talking at me. And I actually felt almost more of a burden, like I was taking too long to process, or they feel like my story's being absorbed so that they can kind of have actual insight into my story. And so I just felt like we fixed the problem and move I think that as a gift that, you

Joey Pontarelli (49:48)

I get that.

Tommy (49:52)

generally speaking when they bring to this world of not being utilitarian and how they approach life. so I would say that should be a viable option, but also that can cost a lot of money I think ideally it's community of recognizing true mentors and good friends. And I think there's a, I don't know, I guess the more intense the issue or the sensitivity of it, there's a more of a tendency to

offloaded to one person so it's kind of neat and tidy and then I can box I think there's some health something healthy who know you and have the right amounts of knowledge of you based on their knowledge of you. What's that? How do I phrase this? It's like you know a lot of people know that I grew up without a dad but then a lot of my cleanesses may know that and that's it and then that can stay that way unless our friendship would deepen.

Joey Pontarelli (50:20)

Hmm.

sure.

Tommy (50:37)

And

then there's like mentors and then deeper friends who know more of a story. And I think it's appropriate because there's a sense of an onion or a layers to people's knowledge of you and your story. that you're not like, it's one person has all this mess and everyone else thinks my picture perfect life. And that's like to live in communities. You don't want to be, you know, back to the, you know, bottle versus a brood. You don't want to be like walking around the problems to everybody, but you also don't want to pretend like you're this perfect person to everyone you meet as well.

Joey Pontarelli (51:00)

Yeah.

Tommy (51:04)

So I think those who feel messy, think yeah, seek mentors and don't apologize for it. at least I'm gonna give them asking perspective here. I'm not a woman, but I know going to a man and saying, hey, can I've done this to men. I've gotten bolder as I've gotten older. I'm like, need advice in this particular area. I actually just grew up without a father. And sometimes there's certain questions I don't know who to ask and I need a mentor. And older men.

Joey Pontarelli (51:26)

Awesome.

Tommy (51:28)

respond very well typically to that question. I think there's a deep desire for older men to impart their wisdom, which is also being lost in our modern culture, where the idea of older people are considered more outdated and actually less knowledgeable, and younger people are more knowledgeable because we have the internet and they're more tech savvy. When the old way of looking at life was that the older people are ahead of you in life, have lived more life, and have more to offer you, more wisdom, and they're our sages.

Joey Pontarelli (51:31)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Tommy (51:52)

And so I think we need to reclaim that, of recognizing the wisdom of older and that they can have something to offer Even a marriage, a couple have lived and been through a long marriage, like I know this is tough, but you'll be through this and it's gonna be okay. And they're not bothered by what you're telling them. And that's deeply consoling. I'm giving just a hypothetical here, same can apply to talking to a mentor or a sage story of your parent's separation and how to cope with that.

Joey Pontarelli (52:03)

Yeah.

No, so good. And what I've learned there before we move on, there's like this kind of gentle balance between going to other people for help and wisdom and guidance and everything, which is like, totally agree with you. That's super necessary. And in some people's situation, making sure you're acting on it. Cause I think there can be this tendency I've seen in some people where we kind of can become addicted to the knowledge or the advice.

Tommy (52:34)

Hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (52:43)

or even the relationship itself, almost as if, well, this problem or this struggle that I have gets the attention of these people that I want their attention. And therefore I'm never really motivated to solve it because it keeps getting their attention. ⁓ And so I think like it's important that we're, you know, actually, you know, taking what they say and putting in an action because I think there can, you can cut in this loop as well. Anything you'd add there before we move on?

Tommy (52:43)

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, I would just say, think particularly for friends, good friends obviously are not there you just vent for venting sake, but to help you. And so a real friend would also can tell a difference between a need to kind of unload something off your chest or to take it to something versus like, okay, you're just venting now. Didn't you talk to me about this two weeks ago? Have you done anything about that? Like, didn't we talk about you doing this or this or this? Have you done any of those things? Like, and a mentor can do that too, but I sometimes friends in that peer level. I would add that...

Joey Pontarelli (53:30)

Yeah.

Tommy (53:34)

This is where community is helpful, is that you're in community, you're with people, and you're accompanying one another. You're carrying each other's burdens. That's true communion of the good, the bad, and the ugly. don't want to stay in the ugly or the bad, but you also want to celebrate the good, but then you recognize the dynasm of life. And if you're doing phone calls to a friend across the country, ⁓ they're not with you, they're not seeing you, they're not seeing improvements, and there's something very beautiful about the incarnate experience of being with people.

and can hold you accountable to continue to strive toward healing.

Joey Pontarelli (54:06)

I love that. That's great advice. Just before we close down here, I'm curious if there are any other ⁓ maybe big problems, whether it was bad habits or I know we talked quite a bit about emotions, but emotional problems or kind of relationship struggles that you saw kind of stem from everything that happened within the family.

Tommy (54:10)

Yeah.

Mm.

could go in to talk about habits, but I think the bigger thing I would articulate is lies that I believed that I had to heal from. And they still crop up. It's not like I'm a totally healed person or something. But the first one is I would say is I am alone. That is a huge lie. mean, again.

speak from my Catholic perspective, the devil, the learning means to separate, to cast apart, God's whole movement is communion, bringing together, integrity meaning the integers are one, to remember, to bring back the members into one. And the devil is all about isolation and making you feel like you're alone, because once you feel like you're alone, you can't ask for anyone to help you, then he's got you, and he can do whatever he wants with you, because then he's your master.

Loneliness is a very big epidemic right now, but also the lie of I am alone because that's an existential thing. I think I felt that very potently when I had that breakup or other moments in my life. We're feeling misunderstood and then feeling like the accusations like, you feel misunderstood because you're so sensitive and get over it. And then that kind of like deepening and then that deepening self-loathing and so forth and that being a very unhealthy cycle. And so I've had to do a lot of work on trusting that I am.

Joey Pontarelli (55:26)

Hmm.

Tommy (55:36)

I am not alone. prayed through the gospels of the baptism in River Jordan and this is my beloved son with whom I'm well pleased. ⁓ And Father by God actually was a pivotal book for me to kind of recognize and know that I'm ultimately never alone. I think ⁓ another one is just regarding, I already mentioned, it's the I still do it, but I catch myself when I'm doing it. The ways that I'm being performative for the sake of proving my worth.

like I, you know, thanks be to God, I finished a master's degree. and I know at the culmination of it, it was all good intentions, but there's even in the midst of it, I'm like, okay, am I doing this just to catch up with my siblings? Or am I doing this just to feel at par with others or to prove myself that I can do it or that I'm lovable, you know? And those are things you have to ask yourself when you're trying to aspire to some great accomplishment or good, or even how busy you are.

Joey Pontarelli (56:04)

Congrats.

Tommy (56:24)

For whatever reason, we feel guilty for leisure in America especially. It's like, how are you doing? Busy. it's like like, we hail it as a wonderful thing. When it's not going to be busy. It's actually very bad to be busy. It's a sin to overwork. There's a commandment, know, the Sabbath day. It's sin to be lazy, that's true. But it's also sin to overwork. And so I've had to think about that one of like my busy-bodiness. I've prayed a lot through Mary and Martha in the gospels of Martha just running around.

Joey Pontarelli (56:38)

Hmm.

Tommy (56:48)

And because ultimately she also wants to be at her Lord's feet and be loved. But she's unable to because of the interior problem as opposed to Mary who's got the capacity to just receive. So that's a big one. Yeah, and think would say a simpler thing is just like my life's a miracle, which is true, but to accept that as a good thing and not to feel like that's also a diagnosis or an imperative make my life worthwhile or look impressive or something.

and just to live my life and to know that God has found the present moment and to live my God's will in each day without sort of like trying to aspire to these great things for the sake of saying, it was worth it. I'm a great accomplished person and my life was actually worth living. And that sounds almost suicidal. I don't mean to imply that sort of thing, but that's the other Yeah, so I think, I would say lies are the ones that I had to battle with the most of these kind of subliminal things.

Joey Pontarelli (57:29)

Hmm. No, no.

Good.

Tommy (57:38)

that then manifest in certain actions, similar to my dad, there's an obsession and there's a compulsion. And I think in the same way for me, there's been lies that I've believed because of an absence of a father a insecurity, meaning like this lack of a secure knowledge of being beloved, of being a son and so forth, and that manifesting then as a compulsion in a sense of my own way, my own way of proving myself because I'm really looking for an answer to a question should be found elsewhere.

Joey Pontarelli (58:05)

Wow, so good. And I love like that I've never really heard anyone articulate that whole idea that like I shouldn't really be here and so therefore I have to make my life worth something. I think maybe people feel it in a different way, but I love that idea. Like what I heard you saying was like your life is a not a competition. Like there's not something you need to like win or perform at here, which I think is really beautiful for all of us here. So good. I love all that man. And

What else, in addition to anything you've mentioned, would you recommend to people when it comes to healing? You mentioned mentorship, spiritual direction, anything else you would say? I know you mentioned a book here, there too, a few books.

Tommy (58:41)

Yeah,

I actually want to read your book. I was actually unaware of it until recently, so I'm excited to. Life Healing Wounds is another one that I've actually unpacked a little bit. I still haven't finished that book. More explicitly talking about divorce, separation, and so forth. But yeah, mean, think books have been helpful. But I think overall, think it is owning your story.

Joey Pontarelli (58:50)

Nice.

Tommy (58:59)

And in a way that goes back to same thing we've talking about a lot of stoicism versus victimhood or bottle versus brood is to process the emotions and to have knowledge to process, like to have knowledge of what happened and to process it. That's more of my story because I have data because I was so young I didn't even remember it. So my story is different even than my brother's because he saw a lot of it happen when he was like seven or Whereas for me, I had no memory.

different kind of, know, in some ways easier, in some ways maybe more difficult, I don't know, it doesn't really matter. It's different. but ultimately I think what's what's helped me the most is sort of like I just said an ownership of this is my story and so I...

I don't want to live by it in the sense of, oh yeah, I'm the guy without a father, because that can be helpful. So for instance, I work at a high school and I've taught, and there's moments where in class I can see this question and I tell a piece of my story that would be very relevant and helpful. But I don't walk into places just revealing it for the sake of, oh, look at this guy who suffered. Because I also think that sometimes suffering is weaponized, where it's like I've suffered more, and that's also the victimhood complex of who's

greater victim. And this also breaks my heart about divorce and separation in general is that it's so common.

think a lot of people don't feel like they have permission to suffer or permission to feel hurt or sadness because like, well, it's half of America, so get over just because something is common does not make it any less intense. And I guess my story seems a bit more exotic or, well, you know, there is mental illness, there's abuse and family history and, you know, I grew up without a father and I have a heroic mother. That's all true. But it doesn't mean that normal story of parents have disagreements, they divorced and now you have two best

Joey Pontarelli (1:00:14)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Tommy (1:00:39)

bedrooms is any less, in fact it could be in lot of ways, in many ways, much harder than I did not experience. I didn't have two bedrooms. I wasn't splitting time. ⁓ So I think it's just a path of ownership and acceptance live life. So not ignoring, but not identifying with. that takes many forms of friends, of mentors, of books, of prayer.

Joey Pontarelli (1:00:44)

Hmm.

them.

Tommy (1:00:58)

⁓ So I wouldn't give it like one diagnosis. I think that's the goal. But there's many different paths that help build that up. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:06)

Yeah, I I love that advice. I remember Alex Hormozzi, business influencer guy. He says there's no silver bullets, only like hundred golden BBs. There's like a lot of little things you need to do. And I think it's just so true in life. There's like, man, if there was like one thing you could do to be healthy and whole, we would all probably do it, but there's not, there's a lot of little things you need to do. So I love that advice. It's good. And ⁓ yeah, man, I work.

Tommy (1:01:23)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:28)

Pretty much out of time now. I wish we could talk more about like relationships and marriage, but maybe we'll save that for a future episode. I guess in closing, if you could, you know, speak to parents and maybe say anything that, you know, you would want to just be honest about everything, like what would you say?

Tommy (1:01:30)

Okay.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, I have articulated, but I feel like I can never tie or articulate my admiration for my mother and how she handled everything ⁓ and how she was, yeah, just, she sacrificed so much for us. So directly to her, there was not much I would want to say directly to my mother you know.

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:48)

Easy question.

Tommy (1:02:06)

But I think perhaps to my siblings, it's a feeling that like if I've said something that's been difficult with my mother or challenge that my siblings come to our defense and say that I feel my own sense of immediately come to my mom's defense because we know how much she suffered, how much she's done for us. But that comes with it again, this inability to say anything. And that's been challenging because we need to have freedom to process without being accused of being ungrateful. And that's a challenging thing. And I would really emphasize that, that a lot of people feel like if I criticize or process or say something that's difficult, therefore I must

Joey Pontarelli (1:02:28)

Hmm.

Tommy (1:02:36)

be ungrateful to. It's like, look how much my mom suffered, my dad suffered, and they get to point to those and it's like, that's all true. I'm not disregarding those by saying, this has been difficult for me. Or you misunderstand someone saying something and know what you meant, but I'm just trying to process what I've understood or perceived it. mean, to my dad, I think, you know, I wish I could...

tell him I love him and I do when I have had those opportunities and given those big life updates of his granddaughter, his first grandchild, and that was getting married and those letters that I wrote him.

But yeah, I do have more honest, raw questions of like, okay, how much could you have done? know, financially speaking, he didn't support us whatsoever. Like it was rough. ⁓ We grew up externally looking very middle class, but the reality is we grew up very poor. I'm grateful for certain things, but, ⁓ and that was a huge hardship. so I really believe in providence. know God will provide, know, with very little means. But, you know, that's one more raw thing I would, you know,

Joey Pontarelli (1:03:24)

Hmm.

Tommy (1:03:36)

I wouldn't say say to my dad, I don't want to have this revengeful, the one-liner mic drop. ⁓ But in a conversation, yeah, there's always more I'd love to understand and to forgive because you can't really forgive if you don't know. ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (1:03:40)

Yeah, that's it.

Tommy (1:03:51)

and this is actually still current for me of like unpacking certain things that happened or and understanding what was truly his illness versus what was more willed and kind of yeah kind of like a negligence on his part of what he could have done because it all began when my mom gave an ultimatum of saying Either you continue going to this therapy this this program to heal or I have to leave you and unfortunately his he stopped going and he's like i'll be fine ⁓ and so my mom left with all of us thinking it would be maybe a day and that became

days, weeks, months, years. So I think there's always a desire to have conversation, but you know wouldn't be like a one-line mic drop.

Joey Pontarelli (1:04:26)

Yeah, I know that, mean, there's a lifetime of things to say, I'm sure. So I definitely appreciate you sharing all that. And I know I just appreciate your attention between like acknowledging the good, but also the hard things. And yeah, I think there is that temptation sometimes in all of us to think that those things are mutually exclusive when they're not. can say both. Yeah, which I definitely am.

Tommy (1:04:29)

Yeah. ⁓

course.

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (1:04:47)

think is appropriate and necessary. But Tommy, so good to you man. Thank you. You have so much wisdom. I hope you know that. I'm so impressed to learn a lot from you through this interview. So appreciate you sharing that with all of us. And I know better for it. So thank you for being on the show. I want to give you the final word. What final advice, encouragement would you offer to everyone listening, especially maybe that younger you who's out there right now listening, what would you say to them?

Tommy (1:05:08)

What

I say to my younger self? That's a hard one. I mean, I know this is maybe corny, but yeah, mean, just say it's not your fault. ⁓ But that's a loaded question or a loaded statement. You know, of course, we can think of good will hunting and that scene of Matt Damon breaking down. It's not your fault with Robin Williams. But there's a sense of owning. This happened to you. This is not good.

And it's not your fault. So I don't know to me that that statement implies You know this this did happen. So accept that

but also forgive them, forgive yourself in a sense for any kind of false accusation that may have occurred in you. To me, would be like stop being so performative, like you can relax and not try to like do every last thing and feel anxious that you're not doing enough, your resume's not packed enough and all this other kinds of nonsense. Yeah, so I would say that's the, there's been a lot of like seeking approval, seeking love. And I that's probably the biggest thing

is you're loved infinitely, your life is infinite dignity and value it's okay to feel these things but also to not just to sit in them and so I guess I keep going back to that same theme of acceptance means recognizing but not sulking. That's hard to do and it's a long process to have patience with yourself that is the journey and we're all in a journey and tend to have this utopian idea of like okay I'll be better on the other side. It's like well I mean there is enough

the

side but not fully like we're always going to be in a pilgrimage in the veil of tears there's always gonna be suffering and difficulty and so it's about acceptance and allowing those things to transform you but the new sufferings will occur to embrace them yeah so it's not your

Joey Pontarelli (1:06:54)

That wraps up this episode. By the way, if you want to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. If you want, we could even post your story as an anonymous blog article on our website. Go to restoredministry.com slash just click the link in the show notes to share your story.

free to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And if you've already done free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find the podcasts.

In closing, always remember, you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CSU who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

What Can I Do If I Feel My Parents Didn't Love Me?

7-minute read.

To love and be loved: that’s what we were made for, right? And who better to teach us what that looks like than our parents?

Unfortunately, that’s not the case for everyone.

The hard truth is that parents are people too. And people are, well, human. And humans are liable to make mistakes—sometimes really big ones. (Just open the Bible to page one for Exhibit A.)

Even parents who give their absolute best to their children fall short—it’s part of that whole ‘human’ thing mentioned above. Whether it’s losing their temper or missing a dance recital, or working longer hours than necessary, disappointment is inevitable. Sometimes, the way our parents fall short isn’t just disappointing—it’s devastating.

What It Really Felt Like Thinking My Parents Didn't Love Me

Children from broken families are liable to suffer emotional neglect: a lack of love and attention from their parents.

Going through a divorce is time-consuming, heartbreaking, and completely life-changing. In the midst of it all, some parents may be so compromised that they drop the ball in one of the most important responsibilities of their lives: loving their children.

Furthermore, divorce can be accompanied by (or possibly caused by) things like mental illness, infidelity, and significant financial losses. All of this, too, can contribute to parents becoming consumed by their own suffering at the cost of the well-being of their children.

If this has been your experience, I want to first and foremost say: I’m so sorry. It seems almost unnecessary to say (but it isn’t): this is not okay, and it should not be this way.

Maybe you want to justify your parents’ behavior or find a way to make it okay. It can be extremely difficult to admit that our parents hurt us or that they messed up. But it happens. And bringing that to light doesn’t mean you have to vilify them or that the parent-child relationship is forever broken. 

In fact, admitting your parents made a mistake is the first step to forgiveness and healing. You can overcome parental rejection, but not until you first admit that it happened.

This first step can be incredibly difficult. It means facing hurt, anger, grief, and loss that you possibly haven’t experienced or thought about in years. It’s heartbreaking and overwhelming.

You may also feel guilty blaming your parents—this is normal. When you love someone, it can feel easier to pretend they never hurt you and instead blame yourself rather than facing the painful reality that someone you care about so much hurt you so deeply.

The thought “my parents didn’t love me” is one of the most painful things a child can experience. If this is where you are, give yourself the grace to experience the loss and the pain that accompany this feeling. Consider journaling what you are experiencing or speaking to a trusted mentor about it. It may also help when you are feeling overwhelmed to go for a walk. You can find more strategies for handling difficult emotions in our book, It’s Not Your Fault.

The thought “my parents didn’t love me” and the experience of parental rejection can also affect your identity for years and years to come. We’ll talk about that next.

How a Broken Parent-Child Relationship Shapes Your Identity 

Wounds that arise from those formative relationships (such as with our parents) can be some of the deepest and the most challenging to heal.

If you grew up believing, “My parents didn’t love me”, it likely played a role in shaping how you see yourself and how you see the world. The parent-child relationship is crucial to feeling loved and secure; therefore, when there is emotional neglect, significant damage takes place in our understanding of love, trust, and self-worth.

Here are some examples of what can happen if you feel unloved by your parents:

• You see yourself as inherently unlovable and unworthy of love

• You blame yourself for the neglect that you experienced because you think something is wrong with you

• You think a successful romantic relationship is impossible for you

• You don’t trust others, even those who say they care about you

• You feel anxious in relationships, assuming the other person doesn’t truly love you and will leave

• You avoid getting close to others because you fear they will realize something is wrong with you and will no longer want anything to do with you

• You become a ‘chameleon’, presenting whatever you think others expect or want of you, so that you won’t face more rejection

• You avoid taking risks, especially when rejection is a possibility

This list is not comprehensive. The effects of feeling unloved in a parent-child relationship are vast and long-lasting. They essentially shape the way we view ourselves and the world, especially in terms of relationships. It’s like walking on a broken leg that never healed properly; it affects every step you take and holds you back from operating the way you could. 

If this sounds like you, don’t worry, overcoming parental rejection and its effects is possible. The first step is understanding what feeling loved actually means.

What Feeling Loved Actually Means When You Never Felt It

One of the biggest aspects of feeling loved is security. Feeling loved means you are not constantly guessing, wondering, or hoping that someone loves you, because you know that they do! Another essential element to feeling loved is feeling seen, in other words, feeling that the other person truly understands you. 

Feeling loved means you are not afraid of conflict because you don’t think the relationship is a glass slipper; it can handle friction. Feeling loved means you don’t have a need to prove yourself as good or lovable. It also means that you don’t see every problem in the relationship as your fault. 

These are some of the key parts to feeling loved. However, we know that love isn’t a feeling—it’s a choice! It can be easy for children of divorce to conflate warm and fuzzy feelings with love. This means that if warm and fuzzy feelings are absent, you may think that you don’t really love that person or that they don’t love you. 

It’s important to recognize that feeling loved doesn’t mean you feel happy 24/7, that there are never any problems in the relationship, or that you never have doubts. Especially for children of divorce, doubts and anxiety can besiege us even in a healthy, loving relationship. 

For more guidance on navigating relationships if you are from a broken family, listen to episode #136 of the Restored podcast.

Overcoming Parental Rejection by Finding Unshakable Love

So, how do you go from feeling unloved to feeling loved? How do you overcome parental rejection and all the fallout that comes from a dysfunctional parent-child relationship?

In order to find healing as a child of divorce and overcome thought patterns such as “my parents didn’t love me,” it is essential that you understand this unshakeable truth: you are loved.

You are loved by a love that is complete, unwavering, and unconditional. You are loved by the One who created you and who holds you in existence. You are loved so thoroughly that someone died a torturous death for you. 

Understanding and experiencing God’s love can be difficult for children of divorce. Because our model of love is distorted, we often attribute the qualities of our relationship with our parents to our relationship with God.

Understanding and embracing God’s love for you will help reshape your identity as someone who is good and lovable. It will also help you overcome trust issues and see the world in a more positive light. If you struggle to feel God’s love, here are some places to start:

• Read Scripture, specifically passages such as Psalm 139, Psalm 103, and the story of Christ’s death and resurrection. Read them slowly and more than once, giving yourself time to truly take in the meaning of what you are reading.

• Pray the ‘I Thirst’ prayer by Mother Teresa. If you can pray this in front of the Blessed Sacrament, even better.

• Go to Confession and experience the power of God’s mercy and forgiveness. 

• Meditate on the ways that God has loved you through others and provided for you over the years. Practice gratitude for the blessings you have received over the years, and look for God’s guiding hand in your life, even if you didn’t recognize it at the time.

• Seeking a good spiritual director can be helpful to implement these ideas correctly.

• This episode of the Restored podcast can help if you are feeling angry toward God, as often happens with children from broken families.

It may take time and repetition, but these strategies can help you to reshape your identity as a beloved child of God. Healing is possible and God wants nothing more than to have a meaningful relationship with you. If you take the first step, He will run the rest of the way.

Final Notes

Growing up feeling unloved by your parents and parental rejection can feel like insurmountable hardships—especially when it comes to experiencing love in our relationship with God and with others. The good news is that to love and be loved is what you were made for, regardless of the trauma you have in your past. Healing is within reach for everyone and the life and love you were meant for are yours for the taking.

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#149: He Was His Parents’ Therapist Until It Broke Him | Cole

What happens when you become your parents’ emotional confidant—their therapist—during a divorce? At first, it might feel like you’re helping. But eventually, it backfires and might even break you. That’s what happened to Cole. 

In this episode, we explore:

• How he went through his parents’ separation twice—and how each one affected him differently

• How he’s slowly rebuilding family relationships after stepping away to heal

• Why even small decisions felt impossible—and how he learned to choose with confidence

If you’ve ever acted as your parents’ therapist—or felt crushed by their divorce or the chaos at home—this episode is for you.

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Reach out to Cole: healthcjh@gmail.com 

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:00)

What was life like at home in the years and months before your parents

Cole (00:03)

initial separation was a pretty high conflict situation, a lot of fighting, lot of yelling, lot of screaming. It ultimately ended up with the police being called to our house one night.

Joey (00:13)

Any lessons that you pulled from that that maybe would be useful to someone listening who's going through that right now?

Cole (00:17)

Boundaries

are definitely important. I had no idea what a boundary was. I was often kind of both of their confidants about how they felt about the other person.

Joey (00:25)

what led to the separation initially and then the divorce ultimately.

Cole (00:29)

Part of the reason that I felt things were going well is because I was being this mediator and listening ear to both of my parents and I felt like I could, you know, fix

Joey (00:38)

Were there any like lessons or mistakes that you wish maybe you could have done a little bit differently?

Cole (00:44)

I tried

to just logic my way out of things and avoid my feelings. Then I also tried to cover it up with pornography, you know, that was effective in the short term, but also made me miss

Joey (00:53)

Were there any other helpful tools or tactics that helped you heal, helped you transform in a better, stronger you?

Joey Pontarelli (01:02)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panrelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships you can break that cycle and build a better life.

My guest today is Cole. Cole is a physicist, husband, father who on developing cutting edge photo sensors for astronomy, medical imaging, and physics research. Since his parents divorced in Cole has worked hard to overcome the emotional pain, the problems stemming from his parents' including using this podcast therapy and many other podcasts and books in order to heal. has a good job, great and a wonderful daughter. Cole lives in Massachusetts.

his wife and daughter. His current favorite activity is letting his baby girl asleep on his chest.

But what happens when you become your parents' emotional confidant, their therapist, during or even before a divorce? At first, it might feel like you're helping, like you're doing something good, but eventually backfires and might even break you, and that's what happened to Cole. And so in this episode, we explore how he went through his parents' separation twice and how each one affected him differently.

how he's slowly rebuilding his family relationships, his relationship with his parents after stepping away for a while in order to heal. We talk about his struggle with emotions, talk about stoicism and the lie that real men don't feel.

We touch on why even small decisions felt impossible for him and how he learned to choose with confidence. And then finally, he shares a really powerful encouragement for feels stuck because of their family's dysfunction.

And so if you've ever acted as your parents' therapist or felt crushed by the divorce or the chaos at home, this episode is for you. And with that, is our conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (02:37)

Cole, welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you.

Cole (02:39)

Great to be here, Joey.

Joey Pontarelli (02:40)

I've been looking forward to this show for a while. Um, I know you were a part of some interviews we were doing, trying to understand our audience a while back. And, um, I was just so impressed the way you articulated story and everything. And so not to put pressure on you to do it perfectly in this conversation, but I, yeah, I remember just immediately being like, Oh my gosh, this guy needs to come on the podcast. I'm sorry. It's taken this long, but it's really have you here. And I want to, as we usually do just dive right Uh, what was life like at home?

in the years and months before your parents split.

Cole (03:07)

so much like you, Joey, my parents' divorce was kind of in two parts they had a actually fairly brief separation when I was in high school, about 15, and then they finally separated for good when I was a senior in college. I was about 22. And then I was, they got divorced right in the middle of COVID. July 2020 was their official divorce date.

And I'll say the initial separation was a pretty, shall we say, high conflict situation. A lot of fighting, lot of yelling, a lot of It ultimately ended up with the police being called to our house one night. my dad packed a bag and stayed with his parents for a month or so. was a long, slow process, making sure felt.

okay with him being back in the home when my parents were able to reconcile at that point. And then when they finally separated and divorced, that was a little bit more low conflict. I mean, I was away at college, so I was shielded from a lot of it. As a matter of fact, they didn't tell me when they separated. They waited until I got back from school to let me know. funny thing about that is I called home every week. I just, like, I didn't even...

I was like, huh, it to be only talking to one or the other of them, whether was like whoever's cell phone I call. And then, was, even still, I was just shocked when I finally learned.

Joey Pontarelli (04:23)

Okay, I that makes so much sense and yeah, like you mentioned, I can definitely relate and we'll probably go into that a little bit deeper, but no, it's so interesting how one was kind of high conflict, one was low conflict. And I've definitely seen that where it of bounces back and forth and we'll get into that a little bit deeper. to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, I'm curious like what led to separation initially and then the divorce ultimately.

Cole (04:44)

Yeah, so the final separation.

a good way to put it.

Yeah, I mean it ultimately came down to unmet expectations. My mom, you know, has very high expectations for herself and others and My dad was basically never able to meet them consistently. you know, he didn't handle that well in a lot of ways. And eventually he kind of just emotionally checked out and...

Eventually my mom just couldn't handle that anymore. So she kind of said, hey, I think we should take, like, we should be separated and see that's good for us, if we're able to, you know, to use that space to fix our marriage. Ultimately they kind of backed themselves into a corner where it felt like divorce was the only that's what they decided.

Joey Pontarelli (05:26)

Okay, that makes sense. And are you an only child?

Cole (05:28)

No, I have a younger sister. She is a year and a half younger, so we're very close in age and very different in temperament. I'd say we both would get in the middle of their arguments, but she would get in the middle to join in, and I would get in the middle to try to defuse the situation. Or I would just run. I used to just run and hide in my room when they started yelling.

Joey Pontarelli (05:30)

Okay, and how many years behind you is she?

Okay.

Okay, fair enough. I get both reactions. our interactions that we've had you come across as like very much to like a diplomat, like someone who tries to keep the peace and negotiate all that, such a great quality. But yeah, it definitely is tricky a young person and your parents are fighting don't want them to be fighting and it might seem ridiculous, but they feel very

and pent up and the emotions are running high and you just don't really know what to do. Were there any anything you learned that was maybe the most constructive? Like you mentioned two things there, right? of running away and shielding yourself or you maybe trying to be someone of like negotiator. Any lessons that you pulled from that that maybe would be useful to someone listening who's going through that right now?

Cole (06:30)

I mean, it's hard, right? Especially, I think about this a lot. When my parents finally divorced, I was out of college. I was able move out of the house and get some separation from it I don't know what I would have done if I was still in high school, still dependent, with no way to go. guess I would say it definitely gets better. I'm sorry. If you're going through that right now, I'm really sorry.

Yeah, would... The best I can say keep your head up and try to get through it day by day.

Yeah, I mean, as a Christian, would say pray about I guess what was helpful for me at the time is I had a good group of friends around didn't really share what I was going through at home, but even still, just having the laugh and joke and have safe people to hang out with and not worry about. I mean, we had normal high school fights about whatever.

not worried that the temperature in the room is going to drop 10 degrees because someone's in a foul mood. Yeah, just find people like that wherever you can.

Joey Pontarelli (07:26)

That's good. No, I like that. there's a lot of wisdom in finding like healthy distractions when you're in that situation. I know that was like helpful for me. Now, some of my distractions were not healthy and that's another story. And so I think we like, we want to avoid that as much as possible. But yeah, I think those healthy distractions are really good. And one of the things I was talking with a college student recently and just the situation that she's dealing with is definitely a tricky one with her dad being in.

of this really like, I don't use the word narcissism lightly. I know that that word's kind of thrown around a lot, but like this situation, I would say like fits the bill pretty well. And so one of the things that we were talking about was sometimes I think when you're in the midst of and you're dependent on your parents,

You kind of need under the radar to an extent. Like you kind of just like you said, like you kind of need to get by, get through. And you're on your own, like you had then there's more ability to some.

more appropriate boundaries, even if you already implemented some to avoid anything like serious or inappropriate, whatever. So yeah, anyway, you know, and there's obviously a lot we could say about this, but I think there's something to that lesson. And I kind of felt that way. And I've known a lot of like, teenagers, high school students who kind of are in that spot, you kind of just need to put your head your head up while putting it down to some degree and, know, getting by until on your own.

Cole (08:42)

Yeah, really wish I had a better answer. I boundaries are definitely important. I had no idea what a boundary was. I remember I read the book Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud after my parents got divorced and I read the whole thing and I was like, yeah this doesn't really apply to me. doing great and then I very quickly realized that I just didn't recognize when I didn't have boundaries.

and that it really did apply to me and I had a long way to go. mean boundaries are definitely the best thing that you can do if you're in high school and you're starting to recognize that your family's dysfunction isn't, shall we say, variety and it's a little bit more serious. Yeah, try to implement boundaries to keep yourself sane, whatever looks like.

Joey Pontarelli (09:25)

no, that's good advice. And honestly, I don't know if there's much more that could be said, which kind of sucks. It's like, what the heck, like why isn't there a better solution to all this? yeah, I'm with you right there. It's a really rough thing to go through. So you'd mentioned that the initial separation was in high school for you and final separation and divorce was in college. Do you remember how old you were at both instances?

Cole (09:30)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, actually I looked through my journals in preparation for and yeah, was 15 my parents first separated and then I just shy of 22 when they separated ended up being for good.

Joey Pontarelli (09:59)

Okay, thanks for sharing. Do you remember how they broke the news to you in both of situations?

Cole (10:04)

well the first time the police were called so was pretty and i was i was home i witnessed the incident ⁓ so yeah so it wasn't ⁓

Joey Pontarelli (10:07)

You mentioned that,

wow. Okay.

Cole (10:14)

Yeah, that one was very, very clear. been fighting a lot, was clear that something had to

The second time though, I was college, I was in a different state, it was a little harder to keep track of what was going on at home.

there wasn't, you know, like I knew they had problems and one of the other parts of my story is that I was often kind of both of their confidants about how they felt about the other person. And some of that, like, some of that was trying to be constructive, like, how do you think I could say that in a way that your parent, your other parent would understand, you know, and they were trying to be helpful and make their marriage function. some of it was, you not very healthy.

Joey Pontarelli (10:46)

Hmm.

Cole (10:53)

But so I knew they had problems. But I really didn't expect that they were going to separate and that I really didn't expect they were ultimately going to divorce.

Joey Pontarelli (11:02)

No, that makes a lot of sense. you get home from college and you had mentioned they sat you down. Was it both of them together or was it separate conversations?

Cole (11:10)

No,

was just my mom because she stayed home and then my dad.

Yeah, my dad was staying elsewhere for a long time. my mom sat me down and talked me through it. I remember just being really depressed. had about two weeks of spring break, I just had one these long walks in the woods. Just kind of like, kind of process it you know, a lot of ways, I kind of sleptwalked my way through the last couple months of senior year of college. know, there were a lot of good moments even in that.

It was really weighing me down.

Yeah, and eventually, like I did eventually see my dad after that. We kind of talked through his side. You know, that that was, I mean, it was just hard, right? Like, I'm glad that we had that experience, but not like you're like, yeah, my parents are separated. This is so good.

Joey Pontarelli (11:52)

Yeah.

Yeah, no, for sure. I know in some there can be like a level of relief, especially like you said before, if it was high conflict, especially in the low conflict situations, it's like, yeah, gosh, what punch in the stomach. those conversations are think one of the things about my family that's been tricky, at least my parents, who I deeply love and

always striving to have a better relationship with that we don't often talk about the hard, hard things. We'll talk about difficult things. We'll have conversations, it's like those really core difficult things like the divorce, things that happened in the past that I won't go into. I've often found that those things just aren't really talked about. That was kind of a lesson that I observed growing up. so that's something obviously I'm trying to do differently in my life, but.

yeah, it's tricky, but those conversations are not easy. So I definitely get your reaction. It makes a ton of sense to me. I would have reacted the same way and in so many ways I did. But yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing all that. And curious to go back to high school just for a second here, because I think there's people who can relate to that situation with the police. I actually had a similar situation my parents. It was a little bit different, but the police were involved at multiple occasions.

was definitely, of brings us to a new level. So I'm curious, like as a high school kid, like you obviously know your parents are fighting, things are tense at home, high conflict, the police show kind of were you feeling and thinking immediately after that?

Cole (13:17)

Yeah, I mean it was I don't remember exactly when, but sometime in that period I was like, you know, I actually prefer to be at school right now. Like at school I don't have to think about what's at home. can distract myself, feel like yeah, I'm at school, I'm supposed to be focusing on school things. that's what I really remember. And then,

The one thing I was relieved about was that I didn't think my parents were going to get divorced and I kind of, felt like we'd hit rock bottom and things could only get better from here. And for a while they did and that was actually really nice. was like a real sense of relief. The downside to that is that part of, know, maybe a small part of the of the reason that

I felt things were going well is because I was being this mediator and listening ear to both of my parents. And I felt like I could, you know, fix them, right? And like I could manage things so that the house would be peaceful and be the middle man and whatnot. know, at the time that felt like a superpower.

wow, if you just love people enough, can control how they'll act and they'll act rightly and so on and so forth. And my parents ultimately did divorce, I just hit this wall where I realized, no, I don't have this power. I'm not superhuman. I can't control other people. ultimately, they're going to make their own But in fact, it's unhealthy to try to manage everybody.

to the extent that I was doing that.

That was a really bitter pill to swallow. I'm very grateful that I learned that at 22 and not at 52 like so many other people do.

Joey Pontarelli (14:50)

Yeah, man, what a hard lesson. get that and I get that desire to help. My goodness, I felt that too. And I know my siblings, especially certain ones, certainly filled more of that role of the confidant, especially for one parent compared to another. it seems so, don't know if natural is the word, but it's just kind of an obvious thing that you would try to do. And I'm curious, so you had that kind of aha moment of like, you know what, this isn't,

working, it's not healthy. How did you change that? I'm curious, maybe it kind of naturally changed due to distance. That's one question. And two, I'm curious like the maybe impact you acting as that confidant, as that maybe like emotional spouse that some people would talk has affected your relationship with your parents over the long haul, to date now. yeah, I'm curious kind of how you ended that and then how that's affected your relationship with them over the long haul.

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Cole (16:19)

well, I guess, like I said, I kind of hit a wall. And so the final thing was that in the summer of COVID, I mean, I'll say COVID was actually in many ways gift to me in the sense that my inner world was such in turmoil with my parents' divorce that with the whole outer world being in turmoil because of COVID.

It actually felt like there was resonance with the world, that my inner and outer worlds were in harmony. You know, there was no more cognitive dissonance that I'm so miserable, but the world's doing so well. So that was kind of nice, actually. But ⁓ yeah, but I spent the summer of COVID helping my dad move his stuff out of our And he had a lot of stuff, Joey. It took the whole summer. Every weekend, he and I would load up a truck and then he'd drive it back to his new house.

Joey Pontarelli (16:49)

Yeah. Yeah.

Get that?

Man.

Cole (17:06)

⁓

And once that was done, just, I was done. I kind of, whatever muscle that I was using, I had exhausted it. And so knew that I couldn't, I just had no more to give. And so like I had to, out of self-preservation, take a step back and stop fulfilling that mediator and confidant role, both of my parents and my sister.

And that was really hard because they were really struggling in a dark place and then they kind of felt like one of their sources of goodness in their life, me, not to sound too bragg-ocious here, but that I was cutting that off too. all three of them in different ways had a really hard time with that. And I would say just in the last year or so have we managed to...

Joey Pontarelli (17:48)

Hmm.

Cole (17:52)

you know, have they gotten to a place of healing, I got into a place of healing that we can attempt to, you know, apologize for our parts and what and rebuild our relationship on a more sturdy foundation. But it was really, I mean, long, drawn-out process. We're talking at least four, if not five years, and, you know, some of those relationships are still not where I hope they'll be.

Joey Pontarelli (18:16)

Sure, work in progress. I get that. I like the language you use, like rebuilding. I think there's like a really, there's a really powerful lesson in everything you just said. I think that we often need to take that approach to unhealthy relationships. Some unhealthy relationships just need to be ended. With family, obviously it's like tricky because they're to some level always in our life and unless it's like truly like toxic and dangerous for us, then hopefully there's a way of, you like you said rebuilding.

restoring, like saving the relationship, but it takes time. I think that's something that a lot of us forget. I know I forget it. We watch movies, we read stories, and we see like the resolution happen like But the reality of the story might be, you know, it took months or years to bring that about.

And so I think there's some good, like I've heard people talk about like the Rocky movies, like if people have seen those, you know, you have like Rocky, like the training montage of like him doing pushups and sit ups and running and, you know, hitting and it's like, it's cool. It's like, wow, that's like, that's awesome. Like I want to do that. But it's like, you want to do that for like a year every freaking day. Like.

It's exhausting. And I think it's similar with these relationships. It's like, this does not happen And if you expect it to happen overnight, I think that's where a lot of like discouragement and like frustration comes is cause like our expectations are so off. But if we look at it more, like you said, it's like, like a home. Like the home is dilapidated. Like it's, there's like diseases. It's like not livable. We need to, we need to tear it down.

and we need to rebuild the foundation, make sure that's strong, and then we can slowly put up the walls wire the electrical, you know, the whole thing. So I think there's something powerful in that.

Cole (19:47)

yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. yeah, think a house is illustration for that, because you're right. There's so many little details that go into it. It's not going to be fixed quickly. think that in my own story for sure, not recognizing that this was going to be a years-long process was a huge stumbling block for all of us.

Joey Pontarelli (20:06)

Hmm.

Cole (20:06)

that we really kind of rushed into things too quickly thinking, well, it's going to be fast, so let's jump back into it. It's been a month. That's got to be long enough, And just immediately hitting exactly the same pain points that caused us to take the month in the first place.

Joey Pontarelli (20:17)

Yeah.

No, totally couldn't agree more. I love what you said just everything you're saying now. It made me think the business world, I remember hearing America, we're very like short-term thinking. And we think in terms of, you know, quarters and years. Whereas Chinese and other Asian countries their business, like philosophies, is more to think in like decades and centuries, which is so interesting.

And so I think like, you know, the lesson in that is like we're saying is we need to adjust our expectations. That's going to take time. You don't build something like overnight. You don't build a strong relationship overnight. So I think that's kind of freeing. know it has been for me when take that mindset. the other lesson I wanted to, mention in your story was just this like reality of being like a crutch to people, something that like kind of holds them up. I remember that happening with a.

multiple friends, to be honest with you, I was always the type, especially in high to just like when I saw my friends struggling, I wanted to help. I just wanted to help. to a degree where I got like overly involved and it got unhealthy to where they relied on me for their stability and you you can finish the story. So I remember situations where yes, I was able to prop them up like an actual physical crutch.

But in time I realized, wow, this is not healthy, this can't go on. And then when I stepped away, they often felt harder than they even would've if I was ever there to begin with. And so it was really like kind of hit you in the face lesson. so then, like you experienced too, I had to learn more about this thing called boundaries and why that's important. And if people haven't read the book, we have an episode that we actually summarize the book instead of taking like the four to six hours to read it.

We tried to summarize the main concepts in like 45 to 60 minutes. If you guys want to listen to that, we'll throw that in the show notes, but I couldn't agree more. think that's like one of the main lessons, skills, virtues, whatever you want to call we need to anyway, I wanted to mention that about the crutch because that was a very real experience for me.

Cole (22:14)

Oh yeah, no I totally relate to great when you're the crutch. For a while it works and you see the fruit in this person's life and then eventually you realize that you can't be their crutch forever they have to learn how to stand without you. If someone broke their leg and they never got off crutches again, that wouldn't be any good.

Joey Pontarelli (22:35)

Yeah, no, totally, totally. Like you don't rebuild those muscles and regain the youth. That's a great analogy too. I'm curious before we move on from this, there any like lessons or mistakes that you wish maybe you could have done a little bit differently? Like obviously if we went back, you probably would say, wish I would kind of kept healthier boundaries from the beginning and not been that emotional confidant. But I'm curious if like, I wish I would have said this or had this conversation or done this, anything like that can maybe help someone who's in that situation now.

Cole (23:03)

yeah, so when I first kind of pulled away from my family, moved out of the house, got my own place.

About six months later on, my mom noticed that I was pulling away and she was really hurt by that. But she was like, should we just take it like, should we just take a year where we don't see each other and like, you know, maybe text and catch up a little bit and leave it at that? And like, I should have said yes. That probably honestly would have shortened the difficulties we had by about a year in the end. But you know, at the time,

I couldn't say yes. couldn't. It felt so selfish and so impossible to agree to. I just said, don't know. But I wish, going back, that I just said yes and owned that and taken the space that I really needed rather than try and try and try again to pretend things were normal and be hurt when they weren't.

Yeah, I wish I really wish that I had just said yes at that point and you know learning the skill to say like to set boundaries and take space and advocate for myself in that way that was the lesson you know I wasn't ready then I'm a lot better at it now but yeah that's what I would say to someone going through it if someone someone says that to you just be honest

Be honest with yourself, if not with the other person. Yeah, I do actually need that.

Joey Pontarelli (24:23)

No, that's such a good lesson. And what I'm hearing you say basically, don't feel ashamed, don't feel guilty. Sometimes you take a step back, you need to retreat in order to move forward properly and rebuild like we were saying. So I think that's really powerful. just to be clear, like some people have misunderstood me.

and in some of our messaging, we're not saying to abandon your parents, we're not saying to just run from your family, we're not saying never talk to them again. Certainly there's situations that warrant that because things are so dangerous and toxic.

But by and large, the majority of cases, like we advocate for solely and appropriately with boundaries, rebuilding those relationships so you can have a great relationship. Like it's a whole thing. That's what I want with my parents. I know that's what you want with your parents. Like I think we all want And so, so yeah, I think that's an important distinction just for anyone who maybe has misunderstood that in the past, but moving on from there, curious. we'll kind of focus on the, maybe the rough and the bad for a second, and then we'll go further into the good and kind of how.

just grown and healed, curious, yeah, if you had a moment to, I mean, you've mentioned multiple things where you kind of realized like everything that you were going through, the dysfunction, the separations, the divorce, where it was like affecting you negatively. It sounds like you're a very self-aware person. Some people kind of have this like light bulb moment, like, wow, I didn't think it was affecting me. It's affecting me now. But I'm curious, like if you had a moment where you realized, wow, this is really weighing on me.

Cole (25:45)

my parents did to a certain extent advocate for therapy for like certainly with their dysfunction and with my own and so when they decided in October of 2019 that they were gonna get divorced I kinda thought yeah I really should find a therapist and I was kind of

Yeah, I was basically kind of being slow about it. And then in December of broke up with my girlfriend and one of my best friend's mom died. And...

Then I immediately got into another relationship, which was definitely a sort of rebound kind of thing. I realized, like, wow, this is a lot of stuff to be going on in my life on top of my parents divorcing, and I really need help. And so that was kind of a wake-up call, was able, thankfully, because it can be hard to find a therapist, I was able to.

Joey Pontarelli (26:19)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Cole (26:40)

find one and start in January of 2020. So I actually got to see her in person before COVID shut everything down.

Joey Pontarelli (26:47)

that makes sense. Okay, so there was like a level of like maybe denial or thinking like I'm okay, like things around me aren't good, but I'm good. Okay, that makes sense. And then yeah, man, I can't imagine going through that like triple, that trio of like trauma, tragedy, whatever you wanna call it. Dang, that's rough. I'm curious, like to whatever degree you wanna touch on this, like emotional problems you've struggled with.

bad habits that kind of became a coping mechanism for you, and then relationship struggles. So there's a lot there, but those are like the three categories, like emotional problems, bad habits, and relationship struggles, anything you want to share there.

Cole (27:19)

yeah, was definitely... Emotional problems for sure.

I remember, where did I read it? I'm a huge history buff, military history in particular. And I remember reading this about French soldiers at Verdun that maybe in this months long battle, this constant artillery fire, hundreds of thousands of people dying, and that eyes would go dull. author described it as like,

They thought that their feelings were also like vermin, like the fleas that needed to be picked off and squeezed away. That that was the only way they could cope. And to be honest, there were parts in high school, like around my parents' first separation, was a time where I was like, yeah, that's the thing. Like if I want to be like a real man, like that's what I need to do. I need to take my bad emotions and squash them like bugs and not feel and just like...

Joey Pontarelli (27:50)

Hmm.

Cole (28:09)

you know, perfectly logical so I can keep functioning at this high level and so on and so forth. Now I'm like, you poor, boy. You poor little foolish little boy. Right? And so I tried to just logic my way out of things and avoid my feelings. And then I also tried to cover it up with pornography. know, and that was effective in the short term, but also made me miserable.

And then, yeah, so I definitely fell on the idol side of relationships. Like, I really made, like,

Who's the guy who wrote Wild at Heart? John Eldridge. Yeah, John Eldridge. He talks about the myth of the golden-haired lass. There's the woman who's going to solve all of my problems. As Christians, we know that only God can do that. But I was like, I wasn't cool in high school. needed to work up the courage to actually ask a girl out. But when I finally did get in a relationship, I was like,

Joey Pontarelli (28:41)

John Eldredge.

Yeah.

Cole (29:03)

This is it, she's the one, like we're getting married. That didn't work out. Next girl. That's it, she's the one, we're getting married. And I did that four or five times before I finally, finally a girl broke my heart and it was COVID, my parents were getting divorced. And I was like, I need to slow down and just be single and grow in maturity and figure out my life.

Joey Pontarelli (29:28)

Yeah.

Cole (29:29)

And only then did God grant me the ability to meet the woman who became my wife. I really think those two were pretty tightly connected. Like, God was like, you're not ready for this girl yet.

Joey Pontarelli (29:40)

So good.

No, there's everything you mentioned I can relate to and have struggled in very similar ways. the stoicism piece, the kind of like solution to bad or messy emotions, quote unquote, bad or messy emotions. Um, I felt a similar pull on high school too. I remember just like, I don't really know what to do with all these emotions. Cause like, you know, broken

family and messy situation there. I really thought that like you, the goal was like to avoid the highs and the lows and just try to like stay somewhere in the middle. And it's interesting today to see you know, what I'm observing at least is like stoicism seems to be on the rise and there's certainly I think some virtue.

Cole (30:08)

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (30:15)

in learning to master your emotions, not letting them control your behavior, certainly some good stuff in that. But yeah, I think the result for me, and I'm curious to hear what it was for you, that I kind of became, like a machine, someone who was very skeptical of emotion overall. didn't think that they were useful. didn't think that they were important. And life honestly became pretty dull for me when I...

tried to be emotionless. But yeah, I'm curious if there's anything else you would add to what you already said.

Cole (30:43)

Yeah, I agree need emotions. They are what give life its flavor, what give you your drive. And part of that like, you know, not knowing what I wanted. Like people would ask, like, what do you want for dinner? I'd be like, I don't know, you pick, man. Like, I don't want to deal with that kind of hassle. You know, and that's hard because especially as a teenager, like, everyone's asking you, what are you doing with your life? What are your hopes and dreams?

I don't know, get through this year at high school so I can go on to the next year, you know? and like, it's really been a struggle to just like let go of that and recognize like, I don't have to be afraid to figure out what I want. Like that's a good thing.

Joey Pontarelli (31:10)

Yeah.

Cole (31:22)

because that was definitely wants just lead to conflict and conflict leads to separation. I just want nothing, then I can live in harmony. not only is that boring, but that leaves you stuck because you have to want in order to change.

Joey Pontarelli (31:28)

Hmm.

So good. I love what you said. Want leads to conflict, conflict leads to separation. And that could like, yeah, scare you away from like really desiring things. So good. I found that with a lot of people like us from, you know, dysfunctional divorce families is that we often like don't know what we want or we really struggle with decisions. And I think there's two parts to it. The part of like not knowing what we want. I'm curious to hear your perspective on this. Is I think in part that we were

spent so much time not focusing on ourselves. We focus on our family, our siblings, our parents, like trying to like keep the peace, trying to help, So that's like.

You know, we can just not know what we want because we've never taken like the time to reflect and think like, what, you what are my desires? What are the things that brings me joy? What are the things that, you know, how would I want to have an impact on the world? Like, what do I feel like is my mission in life? What do I want to accomplish all those And then on the other end, I think there is with kind of like the indecisiveness, which obviously goes hand in hand, there can be this desire in us for maybe we didn't experience at home. And there can be a desire in us for surety, for certainty, which, again, maybe we didn't experience

at home because things were often ambiguous and we didn't know if like I'm I'm my dad gonna stay together, get divorced, or like what's gonna happen depending on the situation.

And so I've definitely seen both of those things play out and I experienced it myself. And so I think what you were describing too, of like finally having like some time to be like, no, I need to kind of like grow into my own person, my own identity, become a man, find my mission in life, find what I love, what I, brings me alive, what I feel like called to do with my life. That was like helpful for me. And then with the decisions, honestly, it was like more of a science of like, or maybe a science isn't the right word, but it was kind of like a skill development of like looking at people, especially mentors in my life.

who really good at making I think I've learned a lot from Jaco Willink. If people are familiar with Jaco, he wrote Extreme Ownership, he was a Navy SEAL And that's one of the things great about special operators I look up to those guys a lot. blessed to know a couple of They're just really good at making decisions.

And so there's a lot to learn from them too. And there's other people obviously in the business world that I've benefited yeah, I think those were kind of some of the antidotes to solutions to both of those struggles for me. my temperament to some degree helped as well, but I've walked with people or have people close to me maybe are a little bit more like not the...

you know, maybe type A were like, I love making decisions. And so anyway, those are some things that helped me kind of work ⁓ you know, what I wanted and learning how to make decisions better. yeah, I'm curious, does any of that resonate and any other like lessons or things that you would add to anyone listening who needs to hear it?

Cole (34:05)

Yeah, absolutely. this is an embarrassing story. So when I was like 15, we were on vacation my mom was like, all right, cool, we're going to let you pick what we do tonight. We're either going to go bowling or we're going to go mini And I just couldn't handle it. hit the wall, like, know, like I'll go for a walk. make the decision. I went for a walk. They were like, ah, that's been long enough. They went looking for me. I ran away from them.

no I can't can't and eventually my grandpa had to take me and sit me on his lap and I was you know I was felt like I was too big for that at that age but he had like this was really helpful he sat me on his lap and he said there's gonna be so many decisions in life sometimes it'll be you'll make the good choice sometimes you make the bad choice most of the time it just matters that you choose

Joey Pontarelli (34:31)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cole (34:52)

Yeah, it was a lot of hard work, know, like the first thousand times I did it, I hated it. But just like, you gotta make this, just make the next decision. Just do the next hard one, like, just pick a ch- like, honestly, like, roll the dice, flip a coin, whatever helps you, just make one, like, pick an option, and just do that enough times until you're comfortable with it. And I think that's, I think there's a lot of things in life, like-

You just have to find the thing that you can do that you're like, I did it. I made this decision, whatever it is, and see where you can build from there.

Joey Pontarelli (35:26)

See you again.

Joey Pontarelli (35:28)

If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level and makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists. Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, they're less anxious, they're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the same path that you're on, but

a bit far behind you to just hear your advice and to hear your story since you're going through things that you've been through. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restoredministry.com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restoredministry.com slash story, or just by clicking the link in the show notes.

Joey Pontarelli (36:20)

I love it. I love it. Starting small, like, you know, what food you want to eat or restaurant or, know, whatever is small for that person. I love that. That's a great lesson. and one of the things that was helpful for me when it came to decisions to just picking up where you ⁓ just went was talking about how not every decision deserves the same degree of like deliberation, just thinking through it. You know, some, some decisions you can just make shooting from the hip. And like you you're that, love it. Your grandpa said,

maybe you make the wrong decision. It's like, maybe you order the food at the restaurant that you didn't really want or that wasn't like the best option on the menu. It's like, you know what? You're going to survive. You're at a restaurant, you're eating, you know, food and blessed to be there at all. so, so yeah, I think that that's been helpful for me as well. Cause I think I certainly can have the, I'm such a detailed person, so I can be in this situation where like, no, I want to make every decision like perfectly or do that well. And it's like, not every deserves that level of attention.

Cole (37:14)

there's actually something to be said that if you take that long for every decision that you're not doing it well you're wasting time that you could spend on something way more beneficial.

Joey Pontarelli (37:22)

I couldn't agree more. We'll link to this in the show notes as well. I won't go into it too much, but there's a really helpful exercise if you're making like a bigger life decision from Tim Ferriss, he's an author which you might be familiar with from The Business World. And one of the things that he says is that so often our decisions are because we afraid. We're just afraid.

And so said, instead of kind of like shying away from that and maybe like focusing on something else, he's like, no, actually push into that fear. And when you push into that fear, you could actually like address it and work through it. And so the quick version of this is he says you need to like go through essentially like three mini exercises. The first exercise is thinking through, okay, if this thing were to go terribly wrong, like the worst it could go, what would it look like?

And then you just like describe that. know, some people do like a sheet of paper, you do like three columns and you say in the first column, like what's worst case scenario? What could this look like if it goes Write down the bullet points of like, okay, well, you know, I could get hurt or this might happen, my heart might break, whatever the scenario really clear on that. Cause it's like, that's what you fear. Spell it out. What does it look like? Second column is, what could you do to prevent it from happening?

Like certainly situations, there's things you can do to like prevent the bad thing from happening. And so write those out. Well, I could do this. I could do that. know, whatever, you know, like if you're afraid of getting sick, it's like, I can maybe sleep more and take vitamins or whatever work out. Then the final column is where you say, okay, like this is the worst case scenario. I, I said what I'm going do to prevent it. But if I

can't prevent it. The final thing is I'm going to talk about how am going to recover and how long will it take? What is it going to require? know, sometimes that might be a monetary value if it's like a career option or you're buying something. Other times it might be more of like an emotional thing or a health thing. So that's it. That's his exercise. So basically summarize the video for you guys. Sorry to go so deep into this, but I hope it's helpful to everyone listening. And we'll link to like the video where he is in a Ted talk that he went through that whole exercise, but that's again, know, the three kind

of lists, the one less of worst case scenario, second less of what can you do to prevent it and third less of, you know, what can you do to recover and how long will that take? And he said, once you go through that, and I've done this myself, offered it to other people who found it really helpful. Once you go through that, you kind of have a clear vision of like, okay, this isn't as scary as I thought it was. And I now have a decent idea of like, you decision like is worth the risk. It's worth risking that worst case scenario and I'm gonna do the things to prevent it. And then if it happens, then I'll be okay.

Cole (39:44)

Yeah, now that's really brings to mind for me is freshman year college, remember friends were really stressed out about the first test in college. This is the rubber meets the road, first test of my abilities, how am going to do it? I was like, worst case scenario is test, you fail the class, you drop out of school, and you'll live in your parents' basement, right? Anything above that is a win.

Joey Pontarelli (40:06)

Yeah, there you go. So good, man. I love it. I was curious. So we're almost at the end of our time now, but I wanted to ask a little bit you mentioned you went to therapy and you found that helpful.

Were there any other helpful tools or tactics that helped you heal, helped you transform in a better, stronger you?

Cole (40:24)

Yeah, well, I this podcast was definitely one of them. I found this in the fall of 2020. healing to take this issue seriously, Joey. Just say, you deserve to have your parents be together, that anything less than that is a tragedy. And that was so freeing to There's so many different voices.

Especially when you see the marriage falling apart, you're like, yeah, mean, were so many problems. hard to be upset about that. But just to know, to have the freedom to say, yeah, this was wrong, and it's sad, and we don't have to stay there, but we can recognize that this shouldn't have happened. that was really freeing. And then on top of that, yeah, I mean,

So Boundaries by John Townsend and Henry Kraut is very helpful. I read basically their whole series. My particular favorite is one called How People Grow, which is just like, I mean, they're Christians, so it's like a Christian and psychology mix of just like how to grow as a person. Like just really, really, really good. And then yeah, I mean, listened to a lot of other podcasts. I joined a men's group.

And was actually, the nice thing was they were all people about my parents' And so I was able to, you know, they complained about their kids, I complained about my parents. We got to kind of see both sides of the issue. That was really helpful as well. And, just to be honest, you know, I was really looking for that sort of father figure in my

you know, because I had to take a step back from my own dad at that time. And that was, it was nice to have some, like, multiple men that age, just recognize that, you know, my life doesn't have to end up like my dad's. can end up all these different other ways.

Yeah, and I had a great pastor friend at that time who called me every week during COVID. And when we couldn't meet in person, he would call and then we could meet in person and just having like being able to talk to him and just open up about what was going on in my

just have extra listening ear that's just always so valuable, especially when you're in the middle of something and not looking at it with the benefit of hindsight.

Joey Pontarelli (42:26)

So good. I love all of that. And man, I'm so happy that we were able to serve you in that way and be, you know, one of the voices that we're consoling and helpful. And yeah, I'm really glad, you know, it's yeah, you're why we do this. So I appreciate it. Appreciate you saying that. You mentioned that, you know, people were really helpful. You mentioned friends before the pastor, you know, having all those people. I'm curious if you have any advice for people who

are in a situation where they feel like they don't have anyone to turn to. Like they, know, maybe feel, maybe it's not even true completely in their life, but they feel like, I don't know who to go to. I need to talk to someone, but I don't really know where to start. Yeah, any advice for someone in that situation?

Cole (43:06)

Yeah, I mean that is, it's a real thing. It's really hard, especially, you know, when so much of our lives are online now. You know, you can have like faux friendships online, and even real ones, but you know, there's something about meeting in person and, you know, knowing someone's name and face and not just their avatar. That's so, so helpful. So yeah, I mean, like what I would say like,

I wish I had a secular answer, but even if you're secular, there's thousands of churches across America. full of people, mostly over 50, who really want to see a young person in their midst. Someone at that church would love to into you and to listen to you and work with you. I know it can be intimidating to walk into a church that you've never been to. I certainly felt that way.

in college and stuff when I was trying to find a local church. mean, church groups. One that was helpful for me was...

I forget what it's called.

But anyway, there's gonna be ministries at different churches, know, set up around just being able to go in every week and share the misery in your life.

The first time you do that it can be really hard and intimidating, but the second time it's going to get easier. Anything you can do to go out and find... Actually, here's a good secular answer. Go on Facebook, they've got all these meetup Find something that interests you. It could be a sport, could be a hobby. Go to your local game shop. They've got Magic the Gathering nights at my local game shop.

Go there and meet friends, meet people, and next step for that you actually will do, try that. You've got to go out in the real world and meet some people. My hope and prayer for you is that you'll find safe people that you can really pour into. Take it slow. Don't spill your guts on the first day unless it's a 12-step program.

Joey Pontarelli (44:38)

Yeah.

Cole (44:57)

I'm sure that you'll eventually find people who are safe.

who you can share and open up with. that, unfortunately, you gotta get out there, but it's so worth

Joey Pontarelli (45:06)

yeah, I love that. And I think another thing too is kind of things that I learned in my experience. One was you could be mentored and helped by people who maybe aren't immediately in your life, which like I agree, like it's way better to be like in person if you can have that. But if you can't, like people who write books, people who have podcasts, people who, you know, even create content online.

and can source of like mentorship and help. But I think ultimately, like I totally agree that we wanna the in-person thing. It's gonna go much deeper and be much then also the other thing that I kinda had to challenge myself around sometimes, I'm not saying this is everyone's case, but sometimes we can kind of complain and think like, oh, I'm all alone and there's no one here to help me. And that could be true. I'm not putting people down in that situation.

But a lot of times, like if you look around, it's like, no, actually there's people in my life who, if I put some effort in, like we can build a friendship. If I put some effort in, you know, they could maybe mentor me. Like if I ask them to coffee and ask them for some advice or whatever, I've found that it's often just like more of the discomfort of doing it that's the barrier, not like the fact that there's no option absolutely on the table anywhere in your life. So I've had to challenge myself, be like, nope.

make the phone call, send the text message, invite them, follow up if they give them an out too. If they don't wanna do it, that's totally fine. But invest, and my mom would always say, be a friend. And I think there's so much truth to that too, that you don't just wanna just go into friendships and even mentorship relationships. Maybe they're a little bit different, but looking for like.

I want to receive, receive, receive, but hopefully there's some way of like reciprocating and giving back. And I found when you do that, like people, people will want to spend time around you. Not everyone, but you'll get your group of people. And so anyway, those are just kind of two challenges I had to issue to myself growing up.

Cole (46:47)

Yeah, I totally To be honest, the fear of trying is going to be the hardest part almost all the time. mean, yeah, you'll find someone, especially if you've got a shared interest. You know how many people play golf with other people just to hang out?

There's all sorts of activities. Just find one and you'll find people who will want to do it alongside you and who will like you for you and eventually hopefully will be able to listen to your story.

Joey Pontarelli (47:02)

Yeah.

Love it. Yeah. your parents didn't remarry, did they?

Cole (47:16)

Actually, yes. I just found out, yeah, so my, they both eloped last year. So my mom eloped, yeah, last Valentine's Day and I just found out that my dad and his new wife eloped right after Christmas this past year. So, yeah. Really fresh.

Joey Pontarelli (47:17)

They did, okay.

Wow.

Wow, okay, so this is pretty fresh for you. ⁓ How's that,

yeah, yeah, how, to whatever again you're comfortable sharing, how's that experience been for you? Because if I'm honest, I know people, I people close to me who have gone through the whole and kind of step family thing, but I haven't personally, so I'm curious, what's that been like for you? What are you thinking or feeling?

Cole (47:52)

It was really hard, especially at first, to even wrap myself around that idea. Like, my parents with somebody else, my parents dating, my married to somebody else. I have a stepmom, I have step It's a lot to get your head around. Just give it time.

I will say especially at first I was hyper paranoid. was like, yep, nope, there's the same problems that were in their first marriage are gonna come up and they're just gonna like this marriage is gonna crash and burn and I'm gonna sit there and say I told you so and it's gonna be terrible yeah, I would say you know, those thoughts might be justified, they might not, but they're not gonna make you happy. They're gonna bring you nothing but misery.

It's not your job to make sure that your parents' second marriage is working. For me, please don't try. and to be honest, like, it has actually opened some new beauty into my life. To see my parents, to see them happy again and see them...

see the ways that this new relationship, see the good in this new relationship, even if I'm, even if it's hard, recognizing that there still can be some good and some beauty that comes out of it. if you open yourself up to it, you'll get to experience it. And if you close yourself off from it and bury your head in the sand and say, won't be happy until my parents get back together.

Well, I felt that and I'm sorry that you're in that position and unfortunately that path only leads to misery. I'm sorry that that's the reality.

Joey Pontarelli (49:24)

Yeah.

speaking the truth, man, appreciate that and thanks for being so honest about it. And that makes sense, kind of the mixed emotion coming along with like that, that reality. And I've heard some of the things from friends and things. But speaking of kind of beauty coming out of brokenness, I'm curious toward the end of our conversation.

Yeah, what has the transformation been like for you? So we talked about maybe some of the things you did to heal and grow, but bring me up to speed on like, what's good in your life now? How have you grown and stronger because of everything that you've been through? I know you got a lot of good, beautiful things happening.

Cole (49:55)

Yeah, I mean the main thing is that I got married. I've got a six-year-old daughter. She's amazing. are amazing. ⁓ And that's really been healing too, just like getting to see family members care for this little baby girl and just see them go to pieces and light up in new ways. Babies are magical. They make even the most gruff and...

closed off, people open up just a little bit. And that's amazing. Yeah, and being able to rebuild to whatever level. My relationship with my family members, it's been just practically helpful in a sense because like it or not, your parents are your main source of financial support and advice and so on and so forth. as a parent, childcare. I mean, that's huge too.

And so a lot of beauty from being able to get some forgiveness and healing with my family and for myself just honestly having a deeper relationship with God, going through this sort of thing and recognizing that God was with me every step of the way was priceless. all the skills and skills I had to learn and the maturity that I had to grow into.

to deal with the mess that I was in. Yeah, I mean, just so valuable. it's a work in progress, and hopefully I'm slowly getting better at it as time goes on. Yeah, just recognizing that even making decisions that at one time were so impossible that I couldn't make the most trivial decision. Actually doing that and being comfortable with making, you know, sometimes...

very impactful decisions at work or whatever. just, yeah, just being comfortable with that and accepting that they won't always go my way, but if I make no decisions, then they'll never go my

Yeah, healing and growth is possible and you can really build a beautiful life.

Joey Pontarelli (51:47)

I love it. love it. And I love just the fact that you've taken action. Like you didn't stay stuck even if you felt stuck. You moved and you're trying to build something beautiful along the way. And I think that's like the most that anyone can do who has been through trauma and endured a lot of dysfunction. It's like, just keep moving. Just, you know, go like seek the healing, do the work.

to be better, stronger, be virtuous and then attempt to live that life that you're called to live and along the way you will figure it out, especially with God's help. So, love that. Couple of final questions. One, you could speak honestly to your parents and let's say you're having a conversation with them, I'm curious, what would you want them to know if you're comfortable sharing?

Cole (52:29)

Yeah, but I love them and that.

I realized that they were over their head and that I don't blame them for anything.

glad that I took the space that I needed and I'm glad that our relationship is better now.

Yeah, that's what I'd say.

Joey Pontarelli (52:43)

Beautiful. you've been amazing. I wanted to ask if people wanted to reach out to you, wanted to get in touch with you, maybe ask you a question, get some advice, what's the best way for them to contact you?

Cole (52:54)

Yeah, probably best way would be via email. My email is healthcjh, that's the word, health, and then cjh at gmail.com. You'd think that I made that for this show, but I made that for ninth grade health class thinking I'd never use it again, and here we are.

Joey Pontarelli (53:10)

I love it. Oh, you should have seen some of my emails back in the day.

Cole (53:15)

yeah. Everyone's got that first email address they regret. At least mine's not too cringe.

Joey Pontarelli (53:21)

100 % Mine pretty much is but maybe we'll save that for another time Alright man, you're amazing bro. So good to talk with you. Thank you. Thank you And I just wanted to give you the final word as we usually do what this final encouragement and advice Would you leave with everyone listening, especially maybe the younger you out there who's listening right now?

Cole (53:25)

you

Yeah, I'd just say, I'm sorry you're going through what you're going through, but it does get better. you goal in life and you can achieve that goal. If that's what you want, just keep working at it and you'll see yourself getting closer building the character that you need to achieve that goal. That's what I would say.

Joey Pontarelli (54:06)

That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever app you use. You will avoid missing future episodes and that helps us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We definitely appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find the podcast.

In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#143: When Your Divorced Parent Dies: Grieving, Healing, & Closure | Ben

After a relapse into alcoholism, Ben’s mom left him, his family, and the country for years when he was just 5 years old. When she returned, he struggled in his relationship with her but placed proper boundaries and found some resolution. But his mom’s death in Ben’s late 20s brought new pain. 

In this episode, you’ll hear his wild story, plus:

• The resolution he experienced with his mom and an unexpected tactic that’s helped him heal after his mom’s death

• The place of justice, mercy, and blame after your parents’ divorce

• How he was skeptical of marriage and what taught him that a good family is possible

If you’re struggle in your relationship with mom or a parent died without you resolving things with them, this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Ben: [00:00:00] My parents divorced when I was pretty young. I was I think five years old. My parents met an Alcoholics Anonymous. My dad's been sober for like 40 years. My mom had been sober for a significantly less amount of time. They started this relationship and my mom like relapsed right around the time that I was like between two and three years old.

And so, not only did she, she relapse, she relapse like really hard, and while she was relapsing, she was having like a lot of other mental health crises. My mom, I think, was the one who ultimately said, you know, I gotta go, I'm out, I'm leaving. And my dad just couldn't do anything about it. It really hurts that she just, like, completely abandoned me.

I think getting stuck being the victim, that is, like, such a huge temptation. And I think that when you get hooked on blame, you're just taking away all of your own power to, like, heal, you know?

Joey (2): Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or [00:01:00] broken family, this show is for you.

We help you heal your brokenness, navigate all the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Ben. He studied theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, where he met his wife and was introduced to Focus, the Fellowship of Catholic University Students.

After graduating, he married his wife and the two of them became Focus missionaries in Alabama, where they spent four years leading Bible studies and mentoring college students. In 2020, They moved to Pennsylvania and continue to mentor young adults and lead multiple ministries at the church at their parish.

Ben has four kids and two beehives. I'm excited for you guys to hear Ben's story. After a relapse into alcoholism, Ben's mom left him, his family and the country for years when he was just five years old. When she returned, as you can imagine, he struggled in his relationship with her, but he eventually placed some proper boundaries in place and found some resolution.

But his mom's death in Ben's late twenties brought new pain into his life. And in this episode, You'll hear his kind of wild story. Plus, uh, the resolution that he experienced with his mom and unexpected tactic that's [00:02:00] helped him heal. After his mom's death, we discussed justice, mercy, and whether blame is fruitful or not after your parents divorce, he talks about how he was skeptical of marriage and what taught him that a good marriage, a good family.

Actually possible. And then we talk about that, the four characters we all play in life. And so if you struggle in your relationship with your mom, or maybe a parent died without you resolving things with them, this episode is for you with that. Here's our heavy, but good conversation. Ben welcome in. So good to have you here.

Ben: Thank you.

Joey (2): Yeah, I've been looking forward to this. I, um, know a little bit of your story from a distance, uh, just being honest and I was really, I'm really excited to kind of go into a little bit more. So like we usually do, we'll just dive right in. What was life like in the years and months before your parents split?

Ben: Well, my, uh, my parents divorced when I was pretty young. I was, I think, five years old when my parents divorced. So, I don't have, like, a lot of experiential memories from that time. I [00:03:00] don't have a lot of memories. I have very few memories of that time, like, at all, actually. Almost all of the things that I can remember, my earliest memories, come after the divorce.

But, you know, Recently, I have been able to go through some home videos, and I got a, a box of pictures from my mom a couple years ago, and, you know, you can, you can sort of, like, pick out details from the videos and the pictures and everything like that, and, you know, I've heard stories from my, from my dad, I've heard stories from my mom and from her sisters about what kind of a person she was like and what their, what my dad and her relationship was like, so, basically, You know, at the beginning, when you look at pictures or like home videos from, you know, when my parents are first together, still deeply in love, all those kinds of things.

I'm like one years old. My mom is just very, yeah, she's, she's pretty. She's got long hair, she's taking care of herself, she's, in the home [00:04:00] videos she laughs a lot, she's like, getting outside and she's active and she's like, doing things, there's this one home video where she's like, making a birdhouse for a bird and my dad says something like, There's Jenny, always looking out for the less fortunate, you know, so you just tell that they were, uh, my mom is in a really good place, and my dad, Was in love with her.

Um, at least I can, I could tell that and You know My mom had this like really big Mental health, like, meltdown, basically, around the time that I was two years old. My parents actually met, from what I understand, my parents met in Alcoholics Anonymous. My dad's been sober for, like, 40 years. My mom had been sober for a significantly less amount of time.

So they met in Alcoholics Anonymous, they started this relationship, and my mom, like, relapsed. Right around the time that I was, like, between two and three years old. And so, not only did she, she relapse, she relapse, like, really hard. [00:05:00] And while she was relapsing, she was having, like, a lot of other mental health crises.

Like, she was diagnosed with bipolar and schizophrenia, and her world just really, like, collapsed in a big way when I was, like, between the ages of two and three. And so, As you're watching, like, the home videos, you slowly start to see more and more of that, like, pop up, where My mom seems to be gaining weight and at some point like she chops her hair off Which is like wouldn't have been normal behavior for her, you know You can tell she's just stops taking care of herself.

Her voice gets like duller and flatter This is one video where she says something like I'm happy to be home I love my family and I'm glad I'm home and what she's referring to is like She was in jail for a couple days due to a DUI, things like that. I remember a lot more like refereeing, a lot more fights.

I can remember sometimes refereeing fights and I remember my mom leaving a lot at night. I didn't quite [00:06:00] understand then but she was out going out to go get drunk with her friends. My dad was honestly still I mean, so my dad had been through all that, too. He was an alcoholic, he had recovered. So he tried to be as understanding as possible, but at the end of the day, it was just very difficult for him to convince my mom to stay, actually.

Um, my mom, I think, was the one who ultimately said, you know, I gotta go. I'm out. I'm leaving. And my dad just couldn't do anything about it, you know, her, her mental health was just driving her in a direction that he just knew he couldn't really do anything about it. So, and that's kind of the, it happened pretty quickly, you know, I was two and a half when my mom relapsed and had her mental health crises and I was like five when my parents divorced.

So, in the course of like two years, two and a half years, everything unraveled. And so it was just a progressively more chaotic environment i think [00:07:00] particularly for my dad you know i was very young so i don't know how much i picked up on it i mean i'm sure i did a lot but for my dad who was just trying to he was really trying to keep everything together and keep her home and try to make her stay but he couldn't at the end so

Joey (2): man what a heavy thing to carry the kid.

And even, even that scene, like that image of you, like, referring fights as like, what, a four year old?

Ben: Yeah.

Joey (2): Like, what the heck?

Ben: We don't swear, Dad. Don't say those words. You know, just like that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Joey (2): Yeah. No, and I've seen that play out in situations that I've been Yeah, man, that is so rough. I, um, gosh, and I can't imagine, you know, what all of them are going through, like all of you kind of having like your own unique experience in pain, like your mom too, you know, it's just like so rough, not, not to excuse the behavior at all, but it's like, my goodness, like what sort of pain and trauma and brokenness and, you know, her life, which would have led her down that path again.

That's super, super rough. And we don't have to go into that if you're not comfortable, but, [00:08:00] um, yeah, just like it kind of sucks all around.

Ben: Yeah, I mean you don't, you know, you generally don't have giant mental health crises unless you yourself have been hurt deeply by somebody, you know, and I mean This is probably pretty familiar to anybody like basically familiar with The idea of broken families is that, of course, my mom came from a broken family too, and people in my mom's family struggled with alcoholism and mental health issues, and she wasn't entirely protected from the darkness of what happens in the world, you know, and so, I mean, part of my having to deal with it as a, as an adult is trying to wrestle with the fact that, you know, during those five years, My mom hurt me a lot, but I had to wrestle with the fact that she was also really hurt a lot.

Like how much culpability can you, I guess, assign her and how much can you excuse it? It's, that's the kind of difficulties that, that come with, with dealing with it now. [00:09:00]

Joey (2): I remember, um, father John Burns saying that the Latin word for. Mercy, misericordia, literally means, you know, to just have a heart for the misery of the other, right?

Joey: To be

Joey (2): moved by the misery of the other, and like that being kind of a prerequisite to forgiveness. But it's kind of a scary place to be, like to, you know, go into that and ask that question, like, What were they going through that caused them to do this thing that was wrong? Like, we're not excusing that by any means, but, yeah.

It's such a tough thing to go through, but it sounds like you've had to wrestle with that a lot.

Ben: Yeah, I mean, you know, in the, in the years after the divorce, I mean, that's, Basically what I ended up growing up with after my parents divorced my mom went to like England for a couple years And I don't exactly know what she was how she was surviving or really what she was doing actually But when she came back, I was I was getting older and just asking a lot of you know I was realizing how awful it was that my parents were divorced and how sad I was about it.

[00:10:00] And, you know, it was the question of like, how much blame do I put on my mom? Like, how much can I put was a question I asked myself a lot. And I think my tendency as a person is generally to not assign a lot of blame to people. I was significantly more merciful to her, but, but it's not like the right kind of mercy all the time necessarily, you know, like, I think that I was significantly more, I just had a proclivity to like totally absolve her of all wrongdoing sometimes, you

Joey (2): know, like

Ben: that was just something that

Joey (2): I did.

I've struggled with that too. I remember when my parents first split, yeah, just like, especially wanting to not believe essentially that my dad had any sort of part in it or any sort of responsibility for it because I looked up to him so much and kind of related to the other end of it. But I'm curious.

I have a couple of questions about the blame thing. Where have you come with that? Like, what are your thoughts on that if someone maybe is listening right now and they're wrestling with [00:11:00] that too? Like, do I? Blame my parents? Do I not? Do I absorb it? Do I give them part blame? Like, where have you landed with that?

Ben: Yeah, it's uh, okay, well, another, another thing to point out, I, my, my mom passed away a couple years ago, so my mom passed away about two and a half years ago, so I was dealing with it a lot, like two and a half years ago, because, you know, when somebody dies, you kind of You're forced to like reckon with their life story like that's that's what you do when somebody dies is you try to Understand their life story and figure out what kind of put some finality on like, okay, what did this person mean to me?

How did this person affect my life? Like how do I want to carry this person on with me? And so obviously it engenders a lot of this kind of reflection and I thought about the blame thing a lot And it was just really it was really hard the way that I have described it Is that it feels like trying to fit a fitted sheet over a mattress, but the fitted sheet is just too small.

[00:12:00] And so it's like, you put the two corners of the fitted sheet over the mattress and then you pull it one way. And as soon as you're about to like, cover the whole mattress, this side like, flings out at you. And it's like, That's what I felt like with my mom and still sometimes what I feel like where it's like, okay I blame her like she was a bad person and she did terrible things to me and she did terrible things to my dad And she just, in general, lived a very bad life, and so I blame her, so I put like the, but then it's like, I put the she on that side of the mattress, the blame side of the mattress, but then I realized, like, but she still was really hurt, and she still had all of her stuff, and, you know, the way that she made me feel, Other people made her feel maybe even ten times worse.

And so then you try to like pull it and try to get it all together and then the other side just slaps off. And so you like, to me, it's like really hard to wrap my mind around like the whole situation, the whole mattress, so to speak. [00:13:00] And I don't really I think that I basically landed on it is ultimately not my job to make a definitive, like, blame or not blame judgment.

That I can recognize the fact that she hurt me and she hurt my dad and I can appreciate that and validate that fact and say, yes, this is true. And I can also say she herself was very hurt by her parents and by other people. And so I can validate both of those things and you don't have to put all of the chips in One of those sides of the table, you know, like you don't have to say it was all the people who heard her Or it was just all her fault.

Like you can, I've tried to stay comfortable with the tension that comes about by saying, yep, she was really hurt. And also she really hurt me. Um, and just live in that tension and try not to have to follow it [00:14:00] one way or the other, make a judgment, try not to make a judgment about it. And I think that's been really helpful for me just to, to kind of.

Take a deep breath and let it just not be a problem whether she should be blamed or not blamed. You know, just let it be like it was a fact that she hurt me and I can deal with that and also accept the fact that she was hurt by others as well. Yeah. You know what I mean? I do, yeah. That's what I try to do nowadays.

Joey (2): And this has been something that has been a kind of a struggle for me. I'd love your further thoughts, but I wanted to kind of chime in, um, you know, I've, I've kind of had this conversation with myself and maybe even my siblings of like, you know, it was dad, this percentage of blame and mom, this was this percentage of blame.

And I think you're right at the end of the day, it is somewhat of like a fruitless exercise to try to like perfectly calculate and assign blame. Um, and I think it does, it can lead to like a lot of bitterness at the same time, what you said, well, of like, speak the facts. Thanks. Just, like, state the facts.

There's, like, something good and freeing [00:15:00] about that, too, of, like, not hiding from it, not pretending it wasn't that way, but just, like, stating the facts. This is what my life was like. This is probably why my mom acted this way. Um, this is why things ended up being this way. And that, that sucked. Like, that was bad.

That was harmful. No child should have to go through that. So, so I, I like what you said about, like, that tension. And I was thinking, too, about What's the purpose of assigning blame? And I think in the, you know, I think of like the justice system, it's like in the justice system, the purpose of assigning blame, assigning guilt, we could say is trying to figure out what the, I guess, penalty will be in order to bring some sort of like recompense or recovery or compensation, whatever that might look like to the person who was hurt.

And so I think in this situation, especially if we're looking at it through like the lens of like mercy and forgiveness, which, you know, obviously goes like beyond justice, I don't think we need to be as like exact in calculating. What do you think about that?

Ben: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, when it comes to especially the mercy and forgiveness part, like there's a certain sense in which calculation is kind of like the enemy of mercy.

I think that's [00:16:00] absolutely true. Where if you are, if you are keeping score and you're saying, well, okay, if you're saying this person, Really owes me this but i'm willing and have like a precise Calculated like this person owes me that but i'm willing to forgive that. Um, I I don't know if that is particularly Merciful.

Um, I think what what true mercy comes down to is like You know, i'm going to forgive you and extend my mercy to you regardless of how much blame you have, you know, like You and I are just we're okay, you know, like Whatever, like the, the count was, the count is no longer there anymore. And I think that if you keep that count, I think that can be truly an enemy of mercy.

And I think that's true for anybody, whether it's like dealing with your parents, dealing with a spouse, dealing with friends, like when you start keeping the scorecard, you just get a lot less merciful. [00:17:00] Um, it just, you stop, you stop extending that mercy. I also think a big part of the reason why we want to like be able to clearly Assign blame to one person or the other is because, you know, we're, we're humans and one of the things that we humans really like is having a nice, clear, neat narrative, you know, like we really like the nice stories of the most timeless stories have clear good guys and clear bad guys.

And that's it. Right. And we like to make sense of our lives. In terms of that, we like to make sense of our lives, and assigning blame is a really good way of just making our narratives nice and neat. Like, if I just blamed my mom, and I just said, Yep, it was her problem and her fault, and she was a bad person, and because she was a bad person, my parents marriage failed, and because she was a bad person, the beginning of my life was totally screwed up, blah blah blah, then it would be an easy story.

To [00:18:00] go with, but it wouldn't be like the true story, and I think because it wouldn't really be a true story, it wouldn't allow me to actually heal, to actually become a better, holier person, it would actually stunt my growth, and stunt my ability to interact with reality, so I think part of the whole situation is being able to step back and say, the narrative, the story, I am a player in that story, And the story goes way beyond me, you know, and I can't, I am not going to be able to connect all of the dots from like a God's eye view, you know, I have to be content to know and trust that the story does make sense in some cosmological way, and that I just can't know everything about it.

I love that. I think those, those are the two reasons really why we blame people is like. I think we want to be able to like, like you said, know exactly what is out us and we want to have a really clear narrative, but I don't think that either [00:19:00] of those things are particularly helpful for living your life, you know,

Joey (2): yeah, you're so right to point out that life is messier than.

The stories that we see in here, there often isn't like a clear resolution and, you know, in stories, there's like four characters, right? There's the hero, the protagonist, there's the, the villain, the one who's like the antagonist trying to stop them. Um, but then there's also these two other characters.

There's the guide who's helping the hero. And then there's also the victim, the people in the story who kind of are like helpless, powerless. And I think What I hear you saying is that if we get stuck on blame, if we get stuck on blame, there's a high likelihood that we're going to just turn into the victim.

And if we turn into the victim, then what happens from there is I know well, cause I've struggled with this is that we just start blaming our parents or our past for every wrong thing in our life and never take any ownership and never start working towards like, you know, maybe I didn't cause that thing to happen, but I could take ownership of the solution.

I could take ownership of like my life right now today. And I could, you know, solve the problems that I'm faced with, uh, [00:20:00] to a degree I can. And so I think, I think that's like a real danger. And I just want to put one caveat in there too. I think, you know, in the process of forgiveness, I've heard people say, Father Mike Schmitz talks about this, how, you know, there is a point to like counting the costs, but I see.

But the blame thing is like almost like getting obsessive with that as like taking that too far, not just counting the cost in order to forgive the person and free them of their debt. But kind of, yeah, like you said, being a little bit more like scorekeeper, you know, you hurt me this much. Therefore, like I deserve this.

Ben: Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and that's a really, that's such a tight rope to walk. You want to be able to admit that people did you wrong, but also not get too wrapped up in it. I don't know how to do that. I don't, I mean, I don't have the

Joey (2): perfect balance either,

Ben: but yeah, I think, I think getting stuck being the victim, that is like such a huge temptation.

And I think that when you get hooked on blame, you end up doing that. And then you're just taking away all of your own power

Joey (2): to like, heal, you know, no, I love that. And I'm glad to are going into this. One other thing I was thinking of was [00:21:00] how the home videos seem to have impacted you. Talk about that a little bit.

Like, what was it like watching those? Do you recommend people do that or yeah, I'm just curious kind of going back and kind of understanding your past even before like you said at the beginning Maybe you have like that explicit cognitive memory of what happened with you Even though it's kind of like baked into your bones into your you know subconscious.

Ben: Yeah, it was uh, it was a really It was a really bittersweet experience to go back and watch those home videos because Some of it just really sucked. I mean some of it was just like it is really Not fun, like the videos that were closer like during her mental collapse Basically, it was really not fun to watch that.

It was like not fun to See her that way. Um, it was also kind of not fun to see that like There was once a time where my mom was like, super functional and happy [00:22:00] and in love and stuff. And it was not really fun to watch that, like, transform into what I saw in the later videos. It wasn't fun. I mean, it there were, but it was good.

It was, like I think it was really important stuff for me to see, because it helped me, I guess, fill in the blanks a little bit, about, well, what was my mom actually like, and also, what was she, what was this process like for her, what was it like for my dad, what was it probably like for me as a kid, you know, even though I technically experienced it, I don't remember much of it, so like, I was able to watch myself, and how, like, I was able to learn about how I, Was reacting to things by watching those videos, you know, and that was I think that was informative too So it just helped me get a lot of perspective on it and you know, I think another thing that it did help me do was Recognize that there were a lot of good things, you know, and that was something that my mom [00:23:00] talked about later in my life like Before she passed away was just like, you know She was like obviously things didn't work out between me and your dad But I want you to know that like it was really good for a while, you know, like it wasn't just Garbage, but like we really did love each other And she really wanted me to know that like I had come out of a relationship of love And even though that relationship was like kind of corrupted Or, you know, even though that relationship was eventually broke down, I should say, that the relationship that I came out of was a really loving relationship and it was good for me to look back and say, yeah, that's true.

Um, it was a loving relationship that I came out of, um, that I was produced by, you know? Um, so that, I think that was really helpful for me. That was probably the most helpful thing for me to see was just like, they were in love. I had never seen that before. I had never known, [00:24:00] truly, that my dad was in love with my mom or vice versa.

Like, I had never cognized, like, recognized that fact. So being able to go back and look at old videos, you know, is bittersweet. The bitter was, it's not like that anymore. And it wasn't that way for very long, but the sweet was that there was something there that was good and human and beautiful.

Joey (2): I love that.

And I appreciate you going there because I think, like, so much of what you said makes a lot of sense to me. Like, the self knowledge that comes from kind of understanding our family and our past is powerful. Like, it helps us understand, like, why we think, feel, and act the way that we do. And then especially if there's parts of our lives that we're not super proud of, we want to change, I think there is power in, like, being able to over transform.

through understanding like the why behind why you do that thing, whether it's an addiction, a bad habit, something like that. So I think the self knowledge is really powerful, but kind of scary. I remember years ago, my dad has bipolar disease and um, he was in hospital and uh, just in a tough spot [00:25:00] struggling and.

I was trying to get him some help. I saw that the kind of typical conventional treatment of like, you know, whatever they did in the psych hospital, like meds and shock therapy and whatever else, like wasn't really doing the trick. This is, it had been like, I don't know how many times back to the same spot.

And so I was like, there has to be another way. So I, you know, looked into trauma therapy and found this awesome trauma therapist who we now work with through restored, but, um, as part of helping him, I went through and like created a timeline of his life and obviously it impact, it was like somewhat of a timeline of my life too, seeing kind of like the ways in which he.

You know, like kind of what life had thrown at him without going into it too much and, um, it was really instructive. It's kind of painful, but instructive. And it led me to a place of like a lot more compassion for him, but also kind of a better understanding of myself. Like, wow, okay, this is where I come from.

This is what was going on in my, you know, grandparents family. This is going on in my dad's life as a young person. This is what happened, you know, around the time when my parents were getting married and, Dating and getting married and then like early family life and all of that. And it was really, really eyeopening.

[00:26:00] Again, not the easiest stuff to swallow, but I do think that I do think it's helpful. So I'm curious if you have any advice for everyone listening, do you think it's worth going back to that stuff and digging it up? What would you say? Yeah.

Ben: Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's absolutely worth it. I think that it's vulnerable certainly, but it's.

I would certainly recommend revisiting those old memories, and those old pictures, and those old videos, and just facing all of that to help understand. And you know, there are, there are some pictures that I have of my parents that I like. From the olden days that I like keep around and use as bookmarks, you know?

Or old pictures of, like, her and me when I was, like, real young, like, two, and she's just very happy, and we're in a pumpkin patch or something, and I just try to keep them around just to have something good. To remember that helps me under just like go back to the fact that it's just more complex [00:27:00] than, you know, it's just a more complex situation.

Um, there's good and bad in between. I think it's a great idea. I think that there's also a lot of it helps you. I did do therapy for a little bit for, for these kinds of things. And, and a lot of what we did was I forget like the technical name for it, but it was, it's like when you remember something, but you're trying to like, take all of the negative emotions that are associated with the memory and sort of just like diffuse them or change them.

Like, I remember my. My therapist, uh, was in college. He literally, it was like, it has something to do with REM. I'm totally butchering this, but like, Something about

Joey (2): REM, sorry? EMDR, maybe rapid eye, the eye movement therapy? Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Ben: Yeah, it's, it's the rapid eye movement for sure. And there's something about that that is connected with like, Our memories and our emotions and so like he would give me these two little things and he would literally just like rapidly move the vibrations that I was holding [00:28:00] so it would vibrate on my right hand and then my left hand and somehow that like gets your body into like the emotional connection with memories

Joey (2): thing.

Nice.

Ben: Don't exactly know how it works and so then you would re go through your memories and if you had a bad one something that was causing like a wound or a trauma in your psychological life now you could go back and kind of like. Walk yourself through that memory and try to change your emotional perspective on it and it would help you in your real life.

And anyway, whether you're doing the technical part of it or not, I think just going back and trying to encounter like the home videos and the pictures. And revisit all those bad memories, all of those things that ultimately are traumatic and hurt you, and try to achieve a new openness about them, and through that openness, alter the way that you feel, or like, alter the way that you look at them, or your perspective towards them, I think that that would go a long way in [00:29:00] helping anybody overcome, like, The hurdles of trauma in their day to day life now,

Joey (2): you know.

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No, that's such good advice and yeah, I love, I love like the nuance that you're adding to that life is. Not just black and white, there's a lot of color in it. And yeah, no, this is so good. Um, I'm sure everyone's thinking like, tell us more about your relationship with your mom. Like, where did it go from there?

And you know, how did it end? And things like that. So yeah, I'm curious. And I know it's kind of unique that I'm sure there's people listening who have lost their mom or their dad and are in a similar spot. But I think most people, you know, listening, I haven't had that experience yet. And so, yeah, any, I'm curious of any advice.

Uh, on that front too, but before that, I'm curious kind of how things progress with your mom and where did they, where did they end up?

Ben: Yeah, so my mom, like I said, my, my parents divorced my mom Went to like [00:31:00] england I think it's basically kind of like a i'm gonna go find myself situation. Actually, she changed her name.

So she changed her name from Jenny Pluta to Ada Fitzgerald because she wanted to like feel more connected with her like Celtic roots or whatever. And then she went to England to sort of like, I think just try to, she was searching for like an identity that she felt comfortable with, right? Like she was, that's why she changed her name.

Um, there's actually When, when my mom died, I was going through her, some of her things, and she actually had this like, name change announcement, you know? And it was like, she sent out, they were like, almost like wedding invitations, and they were, they were really dramatic, on the front it said, um, it said, Oh, what's in a name?

A rose by any other name would still be a rose. William Shakespeare. So it was like, oh, what's in a name, William Shakespeare, then it said everything, Ada Fitzgerald, you know, and it was just like pretty, it was pretty dramatic. [00:32:00] It was like a little, a little cringy. Um, but she was, so she like put a lot of stock in that name change.

And so she put a lot of stock in this trip to England. She was just trying to find herself. And I was like, I don't know. I was like, man. I can't imagine, but honestly, I think of all the things, I can't imagine what I was really feeling when I was like six years old and she left, but of all the things now that still hurt, the fact that she went to England was, is the thing that hurts by far the most because I don't know.

I just, I don't know how, I don't know how you, it really hurts that she just like completely abandoned me, you know, like the fact that she just totally left, I can deal with you, like trying your best and like still failing because you're an alcoholic or whatever, but like going to England really, really hurt me.

She was there for

Joey (2): years.

Ben: Yeah, she was there for, I'm pretty sure like a couple of years. Um, and when she came back, you know, it was just, she, I think she just. [00:33:00] Really wanted everything to be okay between me and her and I wanted everything to be really okay between me and her so what happened was After she came back from england.

It was like I Was kind of almost like afraid that if I wasn't there all the time She was just gonna leave again, right like if I Wasn't the perfect son That she was just gonna get out. So, there was a time where, you know, I was like probably, when I got back, I was probably around 8 or 9. And, from then until I was like, you know, in the 8th grade, so probably about 4 or 5 years.

She had just like a string of just like really horrible boyfriends. Like horrible boyfriends. Also alcoholics and they would fight verbally, physically, um, I had to call [00:34:00] my dad. I was like 10. I was like, had having to call my dad to like, take me home. These were like, can be my like visitation weekends. You know, I was like, dad, I'm fighting.

I really got to go. I think I tried to call the police one time because they were hitting each other there was just like it was really some some really awful situations and but I still just was putting a lot of responsibility on myself to like stick it out with her and once I got into You know, pre, you know, like very young adulthood and I was driving like I put ticket upon myself to like Take her to meetings and even though I could now like not spend the weekends with her because I was like, you know There's just nothing stopping me from

Joey: yeah

Ben: from not showing up I just still did it because I was like, yeah, I kind of hate this but I [00:35:00] don't want to be abandoned again, right?

I just want to hopefully this would become something good. And so, you know, that was really my mom's life for like a really just long time was she would, and you know, she would like go to rehab. And I think she had something like 13 rehab stints in her lifetime. Like, It was kind of crazy how many times, and um, So that was just like, our relationship was really marked a lot by that kind of thing.

Where I was trying really, really hard to be the perfect son, And it was just putting me in a lot of like, emotionally abusive situations and everything like that. My dad Was and I think really is the reason why I didn't just completely explode during this time My dad was a really good man Is a really good man, and I think during that time was incredibly supportive of me and understood everything And tried to, [00:36:00] really tried to help me, like, process all of it.

And, I mean, he was my rock during, during that time for sure. So, I think that once I, that was like, basically what characterized me and my mom's relationship for a long time. Was like, she was just spiraling out of control, and making very little headway in any way. And I was just like, always there, no matter what happened, no matter how much she, you know, no matter how many inappropriate things she did or whatever, like I was just there trying to, trying to help her, and I think it finally started dawning on me how bad things were, how like inappropriate that relationship was, like when I got it.

Really only when I got married. Yeah, I myself got married and I was talking to Chrissa and she was like, babe This is really messed up. Like she was able to take like a An outsider's perspective and be like, this is completely [00:37:00] inappropriate. Like you, you need to like do something about the way she, I think one, one time I was talking to my mom and I told her like, I can't take you to the grocery store right now.

Cause my mom was never able to drive basically ever because of all the DUIs and everything. And she. Just got really mad and yelled at me and just said something like really nasty to me And I was like, well, there goes mom and Chris was like no, dude that's like it's a verbal abuse is what that's called and yeah, and you're not just like It is not just like a there goes mom type situation.

It is like a really bad thing, you know

Joey (2): Yes, I was having a bad day or like Inconsequential comment hair there. It's like a clear trend and serious

Ben: Yeah, and it's like things that, that you wouldn't ever say to anybody, let alone your son, you know, so sadly, I mean, when, when I was a couple years after I got married, I told her, I was like, listen, mom, I just [00:38:00] can't keep having this relationship with you.

I, I want you to be good, but like, I am not actually helping you be good by continuing to be in this, like, to have this, like, relationship. And I just, I gotta step out. And for all of my mom's weaknesses, one of the things that she was, she was, like, weirdly, really smart and really educated and really understanding.

And I think that she actually was able to totally see what I was going through and say, Okay. So she had dealt with that fairly well. Um, we had a daughter and right around the time that my, we had a daughter, my mom had like a serious, like psychotic break, a series of six serious psychotic breaks. And she also was diagnosed with cancer.

So she was also, she was a lifelong smoker, but she also had. Like, lymph node problems. Like, she had like, uh, She would always have like, she had [00:39:00] some hormonal stuff, and she was always a smoker, so she got like, lymphoma. Which is actually like a fairly mild form of cancer. So, she had this incredible, like, this very serious psychotic break, and then she got cancer, and I was in Alabama with Focus, so it's like, at that point, I was still, I was trying to, Call her every, every week because it was just like, all right, you're clearly, it was just a totally different situation, you know, like, and, and so I think the last time I saw her in like 20, you know, 16, probably 2017.

Shortly after that time, like in 2017, I was like, I can't really talk to you very much. We had my daughter in 2018. So like 2017 was like the last time I had really spoken to her. And then in 2021 or 2022, so like four or five years later, That was the next time that I saw her. [00:40:00] And so that's like five years.

She had had like a, a fairly, a fair bit of success recovering from like the psychotic breaks. She had a stable housing situation. My aunt Gina was kind of. Working harder to ensure that she had like a fairly stable situation and then yeah, so I was with, I was able to like, she was able to meet her grandchildren, which was really nice.

Um, and it was, it was a really nice day. We, we went to. the park. We went to like a nature center in Ohio where she lives and she bought Magdalene and Jack, my oldest son, um, these little stuffed animals that we still have. And we spent about three hours together and then we left to go home, whatever. And then I saw her again in 2022, like early in the year.

So it was like 2021 brought the fam up. Everybody met mom. [00:41:00] She's doing okay. You know, And then the next year I went to, like, an IHOP with her, and, uh, that was ultimately the last time I talked to her, and she seemed like she was doing okay, and then, yeah, it was just later that year in August, uh, my son had just been baptized, but her cancer spread to the, her esophagus, and so she had esophagus cancer now.

And basically the cancer ate a hole through her esophagus. So not to get like too, too gross, but whenever she was swallowing food or water, some of it was getting in her lungs. So I was, it was like, my son, Simon was getting baptized and she called me right before the baptism and she said, I'm going in, like, literally I was outside.

In my suit, mass had just ended, the baptism was starting in like 10 minutes. She called, she said, Hey, I'm, I'm going to the surgery, um, everything's gonna be alright, whatever. And I was like, okay, but, you know, just call a priest, like, make sure a priest comes. Like, [00:42:00] don't go into that surgery without a priest, you know?

And she said yes. I'm calling the priest like I want to get last rites. I want that to be a thing. So then I went in and we baptized Simon and then we came home after the baptism and I'm like, okay I have no idea what's happening with my mom like don't don't know we were having like the baptism party and I got a call from the doctor and the doctor was basically like There's nothing we can do, you know.

Uh, there was a complication in the surgery that happened. She was losing a ton of blood. They tried to stabilize her. Anytime they took her off the machine, she started to destabilize quickly. He was like, there's just, there's nothing we can do. Your, your mom is going to die. The most that we can do is like, keep her alive until tomorrow so that you can get up here.

And I said, alright, I'll, I'll go. You know, so I, I like, I went downstairs to the baptism party, just like sobbing. And I was like, sorry guys, you guys can keep eating food, but I'm just going to go for a walk. [00:43:00] And, um, and I went to, and she died the next day. Um, all of her family was there, me, my half brother was there at one point, she like kind of woke up because they had her heavily sedated while she was dying so that she wouldn't feel any pain.

And so that it just like, wouldn't she wouldn't complicate anything. But one time the sedatives kind of just like, weren't strong enough and she kind of woke up and we were like, Oh gosh, this is terrifying. Um, but she like looked over and it was just me and my brother. And so me and my brother were the last things that she saw.

Um, before she passed away and, um, that was a very powerful moment for me, I think of just like, everything is okay. Like the whole family is here. And the last thing that she encountered was that we were there, you know, that we, despite everything, we still loved her and that me and my [00:44:00] brother recognized that we were still her sons and that she was still our mom, you know, um, that was really powerful.

And I think it was just a. A good moment to like just try to end with harmony rather than disharmony, you know, so that's kind of the the story of what our relationship, you know, and how it how it ended. And, um, I'm really fortunate that it ended that way. You know, there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee that our, the whole family would have been together for all of that, you know, um, and, and I don't want to make it seem like she was like, apparently, you know, my brother helped clean out her apartment.

And like, she was apparently still drinking and everything like that. Like, it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a fairy tale. Like my mom got better and everything was fine kind of ending, but it was something, you know, it was something good resolution.

Joey (2): Yeah. Some resolution. No. Wow. That

Ben: was, that was really long.

And I'm sorry if that was, yeah. Too much, but

Joey (2): no, you're good. I mean, honestly, it's like, it takes a bit to pull up all those [00:45:00] memories and think like, let me just summarize my relationship with my mom in like two minutes. It's a hard thing to do. So no, I appreciate you being so vulnerable on that. Yeah, man, I'm really sorry for everything you've been through.

And more than that, it's like, yeah, that hurts. It's uh, yeah, what a rough thing to go through. But, but I admire you for, I mean, a bunch, there's a lot of lessons and everything you just said. But, um, especially just like kind of ending with peace and harmony and trying to bring some sort of resolution out of like a really broken situation.

So I admire that. I also, um, I think there's a lesson in the whole fact that Carissa was able to kind of come alongside you as an objective kind of third party and say, Hey, this isn't okay. Like this relationship isn't good for you. And then the result of that from what you said was that you put some boundaries in place where you said, Hey, I can't continue having this type of relationship in my life.

And so I think there's something in that. I remember having a similar conversation with my dad when he was in a tough spot and kind of treating people acting out in a way that I like didn't agree with. And I kind of felt like I was [00:46:00] tacitly approving that if I were to just continue as if like, Hey, nothing, nothing's bad, nothing's going on.

So I remember having a conversation with him. I didn't want to just go with Sim. So I had a conversation and say, Hey dad, I love you. I want a relationship with you. As long as like. Your behavior is like this, that's not possible, but as soon as I see signs that it's changing, like, I'd love to resume that, restart that relationship.

And so I think, um, that, that was like really big for me and it sounds like it was similar for you. So yeah, there's a couple other lessons in there, but yeah, feel free to comment on any of that. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed. To help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.

Ben: Well, yeah, I think that, you know, your goal with, I [00:47:00] think anybody. It should be that you want to have some kind of harmony with that person. Like, you want to have a, a harmonious relationship. And, if you just ghost somebody, like that's, you're not working towards harmony, you're just increasing the discord.

You know, and I don't think that that's just I don't think that that is the the right way to go about it Um, I think that it's could take some courage I mean and I can imagine there are probably some situations maybe where you need to just like, you know Get the heck out and not worry about it. Like I'm assuming that things are like relatively safe, you know If there's like some serious unsafety, like, I can totally see, like, if you think you're gonna get hurt, like, there's, you can talk later, like, get out, you know?

Joey (2): Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's a good point. Or, or if you think, like, the reaction's gonna be so strong that it might be, you know, dangerous in that scenario, or maybe not even dangerous, it would just be like, [00:48:00] Overwhelming then I think there are other ways you can maybe break that news or communicate that like a letter That's what I do with my dad.

I knew like doing a face to face wouldn't have gone super well Yeah, we wrote a letter explaining things. So anyway, I just wanted to throw that in.

Ben: I think the letter is also Also good. I call I called my mom. I mean I was in alabama So like she wasn't we weren't gonna have a face to face conversation, but yeah, yeah, I think that um All i'm trying to say is like in some way for the most part.

I think that you want to act in a way that is At least working towards harmony rather than actively undermining any chance of harmony in the future, you know, that would be my perspective.

Joey (2): Yeah, I like that. But Krista

Ben: was, I mean, Krista was absolutely instrumental in helping me understand what's happening and what I needed.

And it was also, I mean, marriage itself, like, for a long time, I was kind of skeptical of marriage in general. I was skeptical that I would ever be able to be married, um, because it was Just like, well, the one marriage that I've [00:49:00] seen ended pretty poorly, but I ended up getting to know a lot of really solid families who were very committed.

And I think that getting to know those solid families who were committed and who were not divorced and were raising beautiful families helped me realize that I could do it. And so then when I finally did it, and I like, got, got into that committed relationship and got married, it was like, it was just kind of like a.

Magnifying glass on all of the little like things that I had picked up from my mom, you know, like all of these bad habits that I had picked up from being in a divorced house, you know, um, and especially the bad habits that I picked up from having like a emotionally verbally abusive mom, you know, just like the whenever we would get into a, if we would like a person, I would start having an argument and my cursor would be just like, she would just like start to leave the room.

Okay. Like, not even in like a mad way, just like, uh, I gotta go do something. It was just like, no, don't go [00:50:00] to England, you know, just like, no, stay right here, like, I do not want to let you out of my sight, because, like, you're not leaving, I'm not gonna let you leave, the way that my mom left, like, that's not happening.

Um, so. Yeah, that's kind of, that's just like one of the sort of, I guess, typical things that I kind of had to deal with as, um, I was entering into my marriage and becoming a father and stuff.

Joey (2): No, I appreciate you sharing that. And I've noticed, you know, just the whole fact that we kind of reenact, we replay the things from our past and especially like the behavior we observed in our parents, because as humans, we just kind of bear the behavior behind, around us, unless we're like very intentional.

But even if we are very intentional, we just end up mirroring the behavior behind us, around us. It's like, we just have to surround ourselves with people who we want to mirror. That's essentially it. But um, But no, I think there's like such wisdom in that of like, the lesson I took away is like, you, you know, as much as you're able to like, Spend time with surround yourself [00:51:00] with healthy marriages and families like there's a lot of good It was really helpful for me growing up too because I was the same I was super skeptical marriage I remember I swore after my parents split I'm like, I will never get married like that I would not want to be a part of this if this is where marriage leads like yeah But I want to go down that path and so so I think that that was like really huge for me and I love yeah I think one lesson too for everyone listening if you you know, if you're not In a dating relationship, or you're not engaged, married, um, or maybe even that person, your significant other, like, isn't the one who can maybe be the objective party, I think there is something to be said for, like, finding a mentor.

Finding, you know, maybe it's a relative. Maybe it's a therapist. Maybe it's, you know, just someone in your life. It could be a friend who can just kind of be that objective third party and just say like, you know, maybe you confide in them and say, hey, here's the relationship that I have with like mom or dad or whatever person.

Does this seem like healthy to you? And if not, then they can maybe help say, no, it doesn't seem healthy. And I think, you know, the Might be a space for putting in boundaries so that you can eventually have a healthy relationship. And I, I think it's something I always try to remember too, is [00:52:00] that boundaries are not just, they, they feel mean sometimes, but they're really always ordered towards having a healthy relationship.

Having a healthy relationship.

Ben: And I think like when I did, I mean, when I talked to my mom and I was talking about putting up this boundary, I was like, the only hope for us to have a good relationship is if. We take a step back, you know, like that is it and I totally agree with you I mean you said you mentioned that like when your parents split you were like i'm just never getting married i'm done with it And do you know the paramour song the only exception have you ever heard that song?

It's been

Joey (2): a minute, but I do It's

Ben: like that exact story She's like my daddy was awful and my mom left him and I told swore that I would never love but you're the only exception It's a really cute song. Um, but anyway It's neither here nor there. You said that you really, like, did not want to be, you know, in a married relationship.

I was, like, the opposite. I was, like, I just, I really, really, really, really want to find the one. And I was, like, kind of, like, a serial monogamist in high school. Um, I'm [00:53:00] using that word correctly, where I would just, like, sort of hop from girlfriend to girlfriend, and, like, every single girlfriend was the one.

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Uh, but I think what I realized on self reflection is that I undermined a ton of those relationships because even though I really wanted to be married I just like was super scared of it and didn't know Didn't think it was possible and didn't really know what it looked like and it was Absolutely the mentors in my life that helped me understand what it was like to be in a healthy relationship, you know So absolutely, I think The most important thing to do if you in that kind of situation is to find, find somebody who is a good family, find somebody who has a good marriage and just like, hang out with them all the time and not be afraid to like, There was one family in Ohio, the Kesslers, who I think I spent, when I was in high school, there were probably [00:54:00] times where I spent just as much time at their house than I did at mine, just because like, they were a solid family.

And they, their parents were together. And like, you know, once you spend enough time with the family, you see that they have struggles, but I just like wanted to absorb every last little tiny bit of goodness from them and like, learn from it and be able to internalize it. And I think they were really, like, a huge turning point for, for me in my life, where, like, I was able to actually have a good relationship, you know?

After that, so really, really recommend that kind of stuff.

Joey (2): I love that. And I know we're toward the end of our time together. But, um, yeah, I was curious. Were there any particular instances where that really hit you or was just more of like a sum of the whole of like, yeah, this has just been a great experience knowing them, spending time around them, seeing how the parents.

Oh,

Ben: yeah. I don't know. I mean. I think that it was just, I, I can't think of a single moment where I was like, Oh, this is what a real family is like. I mean, I, I got super into their [00:55:00] family. Like they were, you know, it was, it was really awesome. It was, they like quasi adopted me. And there were, there were other families too.

Like I had family, one family in particular, growing up where it was the same situation where they just really. Brought me in and had a huge heart for me because they knew all of the difficulties I was going through But I mean if I can imagine if I can remember anything like there was one night where there's like a Thanksgiving and I like Came over for Thanksgiving dinner and had Thanksgiving dinner with them after my family's and then like I stayed to watch Christmas vacation with them because they watch Christmas vacation every Thanksgiving and I'm pretty sure I stayed the night to probably and You know, like, the girls in the family were like my little sisters, and the boys were like my brothers, and it was just like, this is it, like, this, this is what I want, and it was just really helpful to be able to be like, it is here, like, they do exist, like, like, Marriage, having a strong [00:56:00] family, having a good family is possible.

You know, it's just, just because it wasn't my experience growing up doesn't mean that I can't go on to create something like that.

Joey (2): So good. It's so hopeful. I love, I love this and yeah, there's so much more I want to say. But perhaps we'll kind of end on that. I, well, I do, I do want to hear a little bit just to tie it because I think people are probably wondering like, well, what about you personally, like your journey, your story?

So maybe we'll touch on that. There was something from your mom's story that I thought was really interesting, both her going to Britain and then also changing her name. It almost was like she had this desire to erase the past. I think a lot of us are there and to one degree or another where we've done things or have had relationships with things that was like, I'm not.

That's super proud of that. Even if it's not a major regret, maybe it is. I think we have this desire to like erase the past and I think what I kind of learned from you in this whole interview is like there's power in just kind of accepting it all, right? Accepting the good and the bad and kind of integrating that or I know it's kind of a big word, but just Just acknowledging that like, as people, like our identity is not just the good, but it also is the bad things that [00:57:00] we've done and it's kind of living with all that, you know, kind of coming to some level of peace and being able to say, okay, that was my past, but my future can be different.

Like I can live life differently.

Ben: Yeah.

Joey (2): I think that's like really, really powerful, but I think, I think a lot of people do have that desire to erase the past.

Ben: Yeah. I mean, that was, I mean, that's. You know, that was what my mom did like all the time. I mean,

Joey: yeah,

Ben: I think that yeah, like the the name change she's like I don't want to deal with anything that I have done like I want to be a totally different person and going to England was like I'm leaving America behind and I'm gonna go to like the land where my my true soul resides and and like start this new life and you know, she would always Bring up these narratives like with my brother particularly, you know, my brother didn't see my mom for a long time when he was kind of younger and my mom was always like, Oh, it's his dad's fault because his dad's a lawyer and she, he like manipulated the system.

And I [00:58:00] talked to my dad and my dad was like, listen, your brother just like, didn't really, I just like, didn't really want to go. You know, your brother didn't want to see your mom and I was just, yeah, you know, I, I think that she just had this need to like forget the past and for herself too. I mean, I remember I would say like, listen, I forgive you for all these things that you've done.

Why can't you just forgive yourself? And she was like, yeah, that's the hardest part. Like I, I don't know how to forgive you know, so she was definitely trying very hard to erase the past. And I think that coming to terms with what has happened is like a necessary part of healing for anybody, whether it's healing from alcoholism, or healing from trauma, or healing from your parents divorce, like, you just have to say, own that part of you, like, yep, that happened, I own it, it's mine, and I take ownership of it, and now I can build something better for the future.

I

Joey (2): think that that's really important. I love it. Because otherwise you're kind of stuck in the space of like, [00:59:00] yeah, totally hiding. Yeah, you're stuck in general, and then you're stuck also like hiding, you're stuck, okay. Yeah. Trying to race your shock trying to run from it and just it's this it's exhausting It's not the place that you want to be not the place you want to live So so good one thing I failed to ask at the beginning was how old are you now because you kind of give us a good Timeline of your life.

Oh,

Ben: yeah,

Joey (2): I am 30. So

Ben: yeah,

Joey (2): so your mom passed

Ben: when you were like 27 28 I was yeah, I was 28. I guess yeah, I just turned 28 when my mom passed away. Okay So yeah And then my parents divorced when I was five.

Joey (2): Okay. No, that's, that's helpful to say, have this headline. And the, let's see, the only final things I was just wondering is like, one, were there any other big ways in which you were affected, like struggles that kind of came out later?

Um, and then two, like, what helped you heal? What would you, and especially in the vein of like, what maybe other people can learn and apply to their own lives. So what was kind of the way in which you were affected beyond what you already mentioned? And then what was really helpful in order for you to heal that maybe other [01:00:00] people can learn from too.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I mentioned like the sort of like the serial monogamy, just like jumping from longterm relationship to longterm relationship, but feeling very afraid to like actually follow through with those commitments. A lot of stuff in marriage. I think personally, like the divorce and also like the things with my mom just really started like a precedent for um, A lot of problems with girls just in general, like just romantic problems in general, like trying to feel validated by them.

I know like pornography addiction was a big thing that popped up for me. I think that was just a huge way that I tried to feel validated by women and get some feminine of affirmation in my life was trying to get that through pornography and you know, I'm still. I'm actually still just uncovering layers of how my mom [01:01:00] contributed to those things, and how my parents divorce contributed to those things, but I'm also trying, I'm just realizing how deeply it is part of who I am, you know, and, um, I think, I mean, you know, I'm Catholic, so I think that the prayer Aspects and the sacraments like really help a lot have helped a lot like to open myself up to that grace and receive healing from somebody who has that power, you know, like, there's if you broke your arm, there's just like nothing you can do about it.

Like, if you have a cold or if you have. You know, you're like, just have various problems. You know, it's like, if you have a cold, right. There's things that you can do to make yourself better. Like you can eat lots of garlic and you can eat honey and you can rest, you know? But like, if you have like a broken arm, it's like, you got to go to the doctors.

And I think that a lot of the things that happened with my mom, it's, there are some things that I can do to heal. It's like, I can, you know, try to, I can go to [01:02:00] therapy. Um, I can. Evaluate my own means of communication and just communicate better with people I can try to change my daily habits I can try to change my mindset, whatever But there's just like some things that I just like ultimately can't change about me There's wounds that I can't do anything about and so I try to bring those to the divine physician and let him deal with it So that's been helpful and I think that I think that my relationship with my wife is just one of those things that Has brought so much healing to me It's these wounds.

She's great. And she's incredibly patient and just very loving to me Especially in the moments where I am feeling the most unlovable. So yeah I mean, she's the bomb and has helped me really I think work through so many of these different things So yeah, that's I think it's hard to pinpoint exactly. Oh, this was the most helpful thing I think it's like a whole cocktail of like good stuff that you have to

Joey (2): You have to do to heal, you know, yeah, [01:03:00] no, no silver bullet, only a hundred golden deep.

Ben: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's a great, it's a great way of putting it. Yeah. I love that quote.

Joey (2): So good, man. Well, it's been such an honor to have you. The final thing I was just thinking of is just how we were talking about the different characters and movies and shows and stories, the villain, the hero.

You know, the, the guide and the victim. And I think the truth of our lives and we'd probably save your mom's life too, is that we're all those characters to one degree or another in everyday life, we can switch between them. And I think there's a lot of power in choosing, you know, to be the hero, the one who's like fighting for something that they want, something that's good and.

the guide who's helping other people get the things that are good in their lives too. And you know, no matter what you've been through, I think, you know, especially with God's grace, like you're capable of that, uh, to everyone listening. And so thank you for being such an awesome example and sharing so vulnerably with, with everyone about your story.

And I, um. Yeah, I did want you, if you would, tell us a little bit about the work that you do, because one of the things I admire about you is that you've [01:04:00] taken like all this pain, all this brokenness in your life, and now you're, you know, obviously doing work on yourself and trying to grow, but you're also trying to help other people grow, and especially grow in their relationship with God, which can be a struggle for so many people.

And so I'm curious if you would tell me, tell us a little bit about like the work that you do and how people can, you know, even find you online.

Ben: Yeah. So I'm a, I'm a missionary with Focus. FOCUS is acronym for the Fellowship of Catholic University Students. We were, we're an apostolate founded in 1998. And the basic goal of, of FOCUS is to spread the, the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Catholic faith through spiritual multiplication and through incarnational evangelization.

So those are big words. Basically, big fancy words for I, my job is really to like build personal relationships with people. I spend not a lot of my time giving big talks or like hosting big events. I spend a ton of [01:05:00] time getting to know people. on like a one on one basis or like a small group basis. And based on that, you know, trying to, to help them, winning them over to the, the gospel, trying to encourage them to discover who Jesus is, and then building, like encouraging them to pray, teaching them how to pray, praying with them.

And then also leading them with myself to, um, do the same for others, to bring them into relationships with God. My favorite part about, about being a missionary is That I get to invite people Basically into our family life, you know, like me and my wife have tons of people over for dinner all the time We have people over to our house All the time.

And so I like to imagine that I have done for somebody, or hopefully multiple people, what like the Kesslers were able to do for me, you know, like mentor people in how, what it is to be a good family. Uh, that's what I do. I have a, I have my own little focus page. You can sort of. Check out my bio [01:06:00] and find out more about my ministry if you go to focus.

org slash missionaries Slash Benjamin dash blue dot and we'll link to them the show notes to make yeah Yeah, and and of course, yeah, and I'd be happy to give my email address So yeah, that's basically my ministry and what I'm up to here and now I'm at a parish at st Agnes in Pennsylvania, and so that's My full time full time gig.

Joey (2): Love it. Thanks so much, man. And yeah, if you guys, especially those of you listening who know Ben, maybe you weren't aware of his story and the work that he's doing, um, definitely check out that web page. Um, if you feel moved to, um, no pressure, of course, uh, you can get in touch with him if you want to financially support him and his family to give him the ability to continue doing this work.

We'll link to that, that page in the show notes, but man, it's so good to have you. I really appreciate just all the, all the wisdom. I want to, um, yeah. Give you the last word and I'm going to end it a little bit different than I usually do. And I'd like to ask just like what advice or encouragement would you give to someone in particular who maybe their mom, their dad passed away?

There was a girl I, [01:07:00] after I gave a talk recently, a college student came up to me and she was just confiding me. Like there was a lot of like un left, unresolved, um, brokenness, trauma, like, you know, problems with her dad. And then he just passed away and she felt really stuck. Like, she couldn't do anything with it.

And so, um, I'm curious, yeah, if you have any advice for people in that situation, especially, because you, you've gone through this to some extent. Um, what advice would you give them? Like, what can they do, given that mom or dad are gone, and they do have that desire to, they feel like it's unfinished, it's unresolved, they want to bring some resolution to it.

Ben: Yeah, well, I think that I can think of, you know, maybe two, two pieces of advice, which You know, the first is from a faith standpoint, you know, between all of us and our parents, we have our relationships with our parents, but, you know, God is ultimately intimately involved in those relationships. So even if a parent has passed away, we still have a certain amount of [01:08:00] Ability to understand that story and interact with that story by believing that, that God is ultimately in control of it, that God is still in contact with our parents who have passed away, um, and also that we can, with God's help, understand the story of our lives.

Um, a little bit better. So that's, that's one thing, right? Just believe that through the Lord, we still have contact with our parents in some way. But from just like a, you know, a human, a human level, like a universally human level, I think that, A, one of the things that my therapist in college told me that was super important, Was that my healing does not depend on anybody else, right?

Like my healing, like I can take ownership of it. And so if you're in that situation where like your parent died and you didn't get any formal resolution with them. I would just suggest, like, you can still take ownership of that situation, you can still [01:09:00] take steps to find your own resolution, and I think that, like, some of the process that I did, like, going through the pictures, right, like, going through the home videos, a project that I have in the back of my head that I haven't done yet that I should really do is, I really want to, like, interview, quote unquote, quote, unquote, My mom's sisters because I think that that would give a lot of insight into my mom's life, you know Just like there are other ways there are other people there are other perspectives that you can get On your parent and I think getting those perspectives can really help move Move you along.

So that's my, that would be my final advice.

Joey (2): I really like the family photos and videos idea that the timeline tactic too was really helpful for me as a way to kind of heal and better understand my dad and what was going on in our family. But one other idea I wanted to mention, there was a girl after a talk I gave recently who shared that her dad had died recently and she never really got to resolve things with.

And so my advice [01:10:00] to her was just to write him a letter, just tell him all the things you wish you could tell him in person. And then she was religious, so I said, just place it in God's hands. And I didn't get a chance to speak with her after, but I really hope it went well. So those are a few tips for you if you want to, you know, try to find some closure, some healing.

If maybe one of your divorced or both of your divorced parents died and you never really got the closure that you deserve. I hope that helps. That wraps up this episode. By the way, if you want to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. If you want, we can actually post your story on our website as an anonymous blog article.

You can go to restoredministry. com story or click the link in the show notes to share your story. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow an Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or your podcast app. Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show.

To people who are looking for help. And there's a lot of people who need help and it only takes a few seconds. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback. And then it also helps us to reach more people who are looking for some help, uh, like we offer. And in closing, always remember.

You are not doomed to repeat your family's [01:11:00] dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we're here to help and keep in mind the words of CS Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Holidays with Divorced Parents: Part 3

6 minute read.

Navigating the holidays as a child of divorce can be incredibly challenging. From juggling split holiday schedules to coping with feelings of loneliness, anxiety, and family conflict, this season often amplifies emotional stress for teens and young adults from broken families. Whether it's managing time between parents, dealing with the dynamics of stepfamilies, or battling holiday depression, we’re here for you. To help, our holiday articles offer practical tips for not only surviving the holidays, but making them less stressful and more enjoyable.

Tip 4: Communicate the Plan

By far, this is the most difficult tip. A fair amount of you will not complete it. Why? It’s scary and uncomfortable. I get it, I’ve been there. Perhaps you’ve never stood up for yourself like this or you’re unsure how your parents will respond. Just remember that inaction has a cost too. If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten. You deserve better.

When communicating, it’s best to do it well ahead of time. Already cutting it close? Don’t worry. Better late than never.

In crafting how you want to communicate, follow the advice of speaker and author Donald Miller. First, figure out what you want to say, such as the main points and order. Then, figure out how you want to say it, such as the words you’ll use and the form of communication.

In figuring out “what” to say, a few tips:

• Lead with your intentions, such as affirming that you want to see your parents and spend time with them.

• Make sure they know they’re part of the plan.

• You have every right to express your feelings to your parents. Be honest and tell them your needs.

• Brutal honesty and vulnerability might not give them warm, fuzzy feelings, but hopefully, they’ll respect you for your honesty. And if they don’t, at least you know that you spoke your truth.

• Naturally, this assumes you’re in a spot where you have at least a decent relationship with your parents and you can talk to them. Sometimes, that isn’t the case.

In solving “how” to say it, some things to consider:

• In-person is best, video or phone is next, then voice memo, and finally, email or text is last. At other times, a letter is most effective.

• Start with “I’m reaching out to set expectations and make sure we spend time together.”

• Be real by saying things like “I love you, but it can be really hard around the holidays to please you both and not offend you. I need you to understand my decisions, my boundaries, and that the tension in our family makes it difficult to enjoy the holidays.”

If you can’t see both parents, give the reason why, at least in a diplomatic way focusing more on yourself than them, such as “I can’t afford it,” “It’s too exhausting for me right now,” “It’s too much on me (or my family),” or “I need a break this year.”

What if your parent gets upset? Stay calm. Try to display empathy by placing yourself in their shoes, yet keep your boundaries. Keep in mind that your parents are learning to navigate the holidays too, so give them some grace. Then, speak the truth by saying what you’re thinking and feeling.

As part of that conversation, ask good questions. When people make unreasonable requests, FBI Negotiator Chris Voss suggests asking the question, “How am I supposed to do that?” The intent behind the question is to find an answer. But often, the request made is so difficult or impossible that the person who made it feels stumped by the question. You can also ask questions aimed at understanding and empathy, such as “In your mind, what did you expect this year?” or “If you were in my shoes, what would you do if your mom and dad were asking what you are right now?”

Whatever happens, don’t allow someone else to take control of your plan and adapt it at your expense. For example, if you get a request from your dad to attend a party or see him during the time you’re spending with your mom, you can simply point to the plan and remind him of it. Learn from it all too. Don’t feel the need to have the perfect plan or perfectly execute the plan. Instead, look at it as a sort of experiment to find the right balance between your parents. You can then make changes next year based on what you learn. See it also as an opportunity to become a better, stronger person. Think about the lessons you can use in the future, especially to build your own family.

To help, my team and I have developed copy-and-paste templates here to communicate with your parents via text, voice memo, email, phone call, video call, or even a letter.

Tip 5: Enjoy the Holidays

Ironically, forgetting to enjoy the holidays is easier than it sounds. Creating new traditions, especially if you’re married or soon will be, is a great way to reset and redefine the holidays. Serving others, such as the poor or elderly in nursing homes, is another way to break the cycle with selflessness.

If you’re like me, spending time with your friends makes the holidays much more enjoyable too. While it’s good to spend time with your parents, make sure you block out some time to spend time with your friends too. So often, since spending time with both parents separately can be so time-consuming, our other relationships suffer. Do what you can to plan some time with those people that you’d like to see. The extra effort will pay off.

Keep in mind that you might need to lower your expectations for the holidays, unfortunately. Holiday traditions in your family might die because of the divorce. You might not feel the same joy, safety, and security with your parents anymore. That’s hard to swallow. In the midst of that, try to focus on the deeper meaning of the holiday. For example, Christmas is a time to delve into the mindboggling mystery of God becoming a vulnerable, weak, human baby. Don’t let the stress and challenges distract you from things like that.

We wish you a wonderful holiday season. You can download our holiday guide for free below.

---

Holidays in a divorced or broken family can be stressful and exhausting. But there’s a better way.

Our guide, 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family, helps you:

• Avoid people-pleasing and burnout

• Manage stress and difficult emotions

• Plan time with parents thoughtfully

• Set clear, protective boundaries

Make the holidays less stressful and more enjoyable.

Holidays with Divorced Parents: Part 2

6 minute read.

Navigating the holidays as a child of divorce can be incredibly challenging. From juggling split holiday schedules to coping with feelings of loneliness, anxiety, and family conflict, this season often amplifies emotional stress for teens and young adults from broken families. Whether it's managing time between parents, dealing with the dynamics of stepfamilies, or battling holiday depression, we’re here for you. To help, our holiday articles offer practical tips for not only surviving the holidays, but making them less stressful and more enjoyable.

Tip 3: Plan Ahead and Set Boundaries with Your Parents

Think of it this way: To stop a fire, you can either fight it as it arises reactively or proactively install sprinklers, smoke detectors, and fire extinguishers. Time with your parents is no different. Making a plan proactively does require some time and effort, but it’s a smart investment that reduces stress, sets expectations, and protects you.

A good plan will naturally include when you’ll see your parents and for how long. It will also set healthy boundaries with your parents, informing them how to treat you. When it comes to the holidays, it’s okay to lay down those rules with your parents. For example, you can tell your dad that you won’t talk to him about your mom, or vice versa. Boundaries communicated in advance also give people the option to opt out of interacting with you, which prevents drama.

By the way, don’t feel guilty for setting boundaries. If you’re not used to this, it might feel mean. That’s not true. Boundaries are a sign of a healthy person. Read that again. Imagine not having boundaries and letting anyone do whatever they want to you. That would be extremely unhealthy and end very badly for you and them. Boundaries aren’t only good for you, but also for your parents. It’ll help you have a healthier relationship with them. If you have kids, make sure to protect them. Don’t sacrifice your kids’ sanity just to please your relatives or parents. Your immediate family is most important now. For more on boundaries, listen to episode 36 of the Restored podcast.

Don’t only set boundaries, but be ready to enforce them. If you tell someone, “This is the boundary,” and they break it, there needs to be consequences. Without them, they’ll ignore your boundaries next time.

As part of your preparation, be ready for the predictable circumstances that will arise, such as a conflict with a specific relative, your dad or mom bringing their new partner to the party, or whatever else. Prepare for how you’ll avoid those situations or how you’ll handle them, such as:

• When your dad introduces his new girlfriend, simply say “Hi, I’m Joey.”

• When that overbearing relative starts pelting you with questions, say “Sorry, I need to run to the bathroom.”

• When your mom starts badmouthing your dad, politely excuse yourself to grab food.

It’s crucial to remember that spending time with one parent is not a betrayal of the other; healthy relationships with both are essential. Many people like us benefit from spending separate days with each parent. By spending Christmas Eve with your dad and Christmas Day with your mom, here are the benefits:

1. It allows you to focus on each parent without (hopefully) worrying about the other

2. It gives each parent assurance that they’re going to have uninterrupted time with you

3. You can avoid burning out

If siblings are part of the equation, include them in the planning process, although the approach may vary depending on the nature of those sibling relationships. Hopefully, you can approach the holidays as a team. To start, create a group chat and start asking good questions to get the discussion going. If things get stuck, make a plan for yourself, share it, and ask them what they think.

Although a good plan is helpful, no plan is perfect. Don’t plan every minute. Also, allow some flexibility in your plan in case things change. A backup plan if things go badly is smart too, such as staying with relatives or friends if the time with your family implodes.

But what if your relationship with your parents is toxic? If it’s to the extent that you can’t see your mom or dad, that’s rough. I’m so sorry. I hate that you’re going through that. In that case, what can you do to experience some sort of community instead of your family? That might look like going to a friend’s house or even having friends over to your place. You’d be surprised by how happy it makes other people to host or receive an invitation during the holidays. Ideally, choose friends or a family that models what it means to be a true and good family—the kind you want for your future.

By the way, if you live at home with one parent, a plan like this is extra difficult. Do what’s within your power to set boundaries. You might be able to spend a little extra time with the parent that doesn’t live at home. In that case, speak with your parent who does live at home, setting that expectation and explaining why you’ll be spending a little more time with your other parent.

To solidify your plan and boundaries, write it down, whether on paper, an app, or a calendar. Feel free to copy this Google Doc schedule template and fill in your details.

Stay tuned for the final post from our holiday guide, or download the whole guide for free below.

---

Holidays in a divorced or broken family can be stressful and exhausting. But there’s a better way.

Our guide, 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family, helps you:

• Avoid people-pleasing and burnout

• Manage stress and difficult emotions

• Plan time with parents thoughtfully

• Set clear, protective boundaries

Make the holidays less stressful and more enjoyable.

Holidays with Divorced Parents: Part 1

5 minute read.

Navigating the holidays as a child of divorce can be incredibly challenging. From juggling split holiday schedules to coping with feelings of loneliness, anxiety, and family conflict, this season often amplifies emotional stress for teens and young adults from broken families. Whether it's managing time between parents, dealing with the dynamics of stepfamilies, or battling holiday depression, we’re here for you. To help, our holiday articles offer practical tips for not only surviving the holidays, but making them less stressful and more enjoyable.

Tip 1: Stop Trying to Fix or Please Everyone

The quickest way to misery is trying to please or fix everyone. It’s an impossible task that will always leave you feeling inadequate. It’s not your responsibility to please everyone. It’s not your job to clean up the mess inside your family. It’s not your job to fix your parents or their marriage. You can’t change them or your family. Sure, your influence has its place, but it’s not the same as being in control or responsible. Remember that you can love your parents and still acknowledge that they got themselves into this situation. As such, they need to work through it and deal with the consequences.

Around this time of year especially, your parents or other people might expect you to put on a good face and be happy. That’s not right. You should never have to pretend to be happy in the midst of a difficult situation. Again, you can’t make everyone happy, nor should you try. When you try to make everyone happy, you’ll likely make no one happy and yourself miserable.

Tip 2: Prepare for the Stress and Emotions

Holidays in a broken family can be stressful and emotionally exhausting. Don’t let it surprise you. Expect it. Plan for it. If you don’t, here’s the danger: you might emotionally burn out and do things that you’ll later regret in an attempt to fill your needs. To avoid that, prioritize taking care of yourself. That’s not selfish if it’s aimed at allowing you to love well, treat others with respect, and be virtuous.

Think ahead about the difficult emotions you might feel, perhaps even thinking back to last year if it’s comparable. Have one or two quick ways to calm yourself if you feel anxious, or to experience some joy if you feel down and depressed. For example, in the middle of parties that cause anxiety, don’t hesitate to step away for a breather. Whatever you do, allow yourself to feel your feelings. Work through them. Pay attention to them and learn from them. Ignoring them or stuffing them away only makes things worse. The only way to heal and grow is by moving through those negative and messy emotions.

Your body and your emotions are naturally intertwined. As such, care for your body in these simple ways to feel better physically and emotionally:

1. Sleep. Sleep at least 7-8 hours per night, according to sleep experts like Dr. Matthew Walker.

2. Water. Drink half your body weight in ounces (e.g. If you weigh 150 pounds, drink 75 ounces) per day, according to health experts like Shawn Stevenson. Typically, that results in drinking half to a whole gallon per day (roughly 1.75 to 3.75 liters).

3. Exercise. Move your body, whether through walking, running, biking, bodyweight exercises, or sports. The endorphin release will help you feel better.

4. Eat. Eat healthy, whole, unprocessed foods to feel your best. Fun facts according to trauma therapist Margaret Vasquez: Eating good quality dark chocolate stimulates the release of endorphins that make you feel better. Similarly, the carbonation in sparkling water stimulates serotonin release which makes you feel happier or better about yourself.

If you’re religious, don’t forget to pray during this time. Not only have experts found it calming, but God can give you strength during difficult times if you ask for help. He sees your pain and wants to be there for you. Know that he doesn’t want it to be this way either. Trust that he’s not finished with you or your family. While divorce or separation is devastating, God can bring good even out of evil. Perhaps you’ll never see that in your family, but you can see it in your own life.

Healthy distractions aren’t bad. If you’re constantly in situations or with people that drain you, you must have ways to revive yourself. For me, quick ways look like:

• Listening to music or audiobooks

• Playing sports or board games with friends or my family

• Watching good movies

• Having good conversations with my friends

• Walking outside for fresh air

• Watching a sunset

• Cooking meals, especially for family or friends

While it’s good to have alone time, it can be taken to an unhealthy extreme. Make sure you’re not isolating yourself. If you’ve spent the majority of the holidays on your own, without meaningful conversations with friends in person, on the phone, or even through messaging, you’re likely isolating yourself. If you feel lonely, that’s a sign that you’re isolated. Instead of waiting for someone to rescue you, take action. Invite a friend over or plan to meet up. Whatever the circumstances, decide to keep your calm. In tense moments, remember to take a breath, pause to think, and detach from the intensity of the emotions before you act. By doing that, you’ll make better decisions about what to do next and save yourself from regret.

Stay tuned for the next part of our holiday series! Download the whole guide for free below.

---

Holidays in a divorced or broken family can be stressful and exhausting. But there’s a better way.

Our guide, 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family, helps you:

• Avoid people-pleasing and burnout

• Manage stress and difficult emotions

• Plan time with parents thoughtfully

• Set clear, protective boundaries

Make the holidays less stressful and more enjoyable.

#135: Holidays with Divorced Parents? 5 Tips to Navigate Them

Whether holidays with your divorced or separated parents are new or you’ve done it numerous times, this episode is for you. In it, you’ll get 5 practical tips to better navigate the holidays in your broken family, so they’re less stressful and more enjoyable.

Get the Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

Links & Resources

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

===

Joey: [00:00:00] After my parents divorce, the holidays changed from joyful and magical to stressful and complicated. Pressure to choose between parents, a misled desire to make everyone happy, especially my parents, often at my expense. My emotions are other people being in control instead of me. Feeling alone and uncertain of how to deal with it all.

Sound familiar? If you can relate, know that you're not alone, especially if the wounds are fresh and tensions are high. Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panerelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

Whether holidays with your divorced or separated parents are new, or you've done it numerous times, this This episode is for you. You'll get five practical tips to better navigate the holidays in your broken family. So they're less stressful and more enjoyable. The content you're about to hear is the audio version of a PDF guide that we created for you.

Instead of making you guys download the PDF to get access [00:01:00] to the content, we just figured, why don't we deliver it to you through this podcast? And if you're the type of person who wants to read it and listen at the same time, you're obviously more than welcome to, to do so, to download the PDF, just go to restored ministry.

com slash holidays. It's totally free. Again, restoredministry. com slash holidays, or click the link in the show notes. But again, you do not have to do that. You're still going to benefit by just listening. The tips you're about to hear, they're really simple. They're really practical. And since they're so simple, it's easy to have a sophistication bias to overlook the importance of simple things.

So remember, it's not enough just to know this stuff. You have to do it to see the result of the holidays being less stressful and more enjoyable. In other words, knowing is not enough. Doing is better than knowing, especially in this case. And with that, here's the audio version of the guide. Five Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family.

Read and authored by Joey Pontarelli. Holiday Challenges in a Broken Family. After my parents divorce, the holidays changed from joyful and magical to stressful and [00:02:00] complicated. Often, I felt more excited about them being over than the holidays themselves. The holidays brought about real challenges. A sad, pit in the stomach reminder of my parents split and my family's brokenness.

Pressure to choose between parents and balance time amid many events. A misled desire to make everyone happy, especially my parents, often at my expense. My emotions or other people being in control instead of me. Feeling alone and uncertain of how to deal with it all. Sound familiar? If you can relate, know that you're not alone, especially if the wounds are fresh and tensions are high.

But it doesn't always have to be this way. In this guide, you'll get five tips to navigate the challenges and hopefully even begin enjoying the holidays again. Based on research, expert advice, and 20 years of experience that's helped thousands of people, the tips below are simple, Using them won't make your holidays look like a Hallmark movie, but they will improve the experience by putting you in the driver's [00:03:00] seat.

How to navigate the challenges. Tip one, stop trying to fix or please everyone. The quickest way to misery is trying to please or fix everyone. It's an impossible task that will always leave you feeling inadequate. It's not your responsibility to please everyone. It's not your job to clean up the mess inside your family.

It's not your job to fix your parents or their marriage. You can't change them or your family. Sure, your influence has its place, but it's not the same as being in control or responsible. Remember, you can love your parents and still acknowledge that they got themselves into this situation. As such, they need to work through it and deal with the consequences.

Around this time of the year especially, your parents or other people might expect you to put on a good face and be happy. That's not right. You should never have to pretend to be happy in the midst of a difficult situation. Again, you can't make everyone happy, nor should you try. When you try to make everyone happy, you'll likely make no one happy, [00:04:00] and yourself miserable.

Again, tip one, stop trying to fix or please everyone. Tip two, prepare for the stress and emotions. Holidays in a broken family can be stressful and emotionally exhausting. Don't let it surprise you. Expect it. Plan for it. If you don't, here's the danger. You might emotionally burn out and do things that you'll later regret in an attempt to fill your needs.

To avoid that, prioritize taking care of yourself. That's not selfish if it's aimed at allowing you to love well, treat others with respect, and be virtuous. Think ahead about the difficult emotions you might feel, perhaps even thinking back to last year if it's comparable. Have one or two quick ways to calm yourself if you feel anxious, or to experience some joy if you feel down and depressed.

For example, in the middle of parties that cause anxiety, don't hesitate to step away for a breather. Whatever you do, allow yourself to feel your feelings, work through them, pay attention to [00:05:00] them, and learn from them. Ignoring them or stuffing them away only makes things worse. The only way to heal and grow is by moving through those negative and messy emotions.

Your body and your emotions are naturally intertwined. As such, care for your body in these simple ways to feel better physically and emotionally. One, sleep. Sleep at least seven to eight hours per night according to sleep experts like Dr. Matthew Walker. Two, water. Drink half your body weight in ounces, such as if you weigh 150 pounds, drink 75 ounces per day according to health experts like Shawn Stevenson.

Typically that results in drinking half to a whole gallon per day, roughly 1. 75 to 3. 75 liters. 3. Exercise. Move your body, whether through walking, running, biking, bodyweight exercises, or sports. The endorphin release will help you feel better. [00:06:00] 4. Eat. Eat healthy, whole, unprocessed foods to feel your best.

Fun fact, according to trauma therapist Margaret Vasquez, eating good quality dark chocolate stimulates the release of endorphins that make you feel better. Similarly, the carbonation in sparkling water stimulates serotonin release, which makes you feel happier or better about yourself. If you're religious, don't forget to pray during this time.

Not only have experts found it calming, but God can give you strength during difficult times if you ask for help. He sees your pain and wants to be there for you. Know that he doesn't want it to be this way either. Trust that he's not finished with you. While divorce or separation is devastating, God can bring good even out of evil.

Perhaps you'll never see that in your family, but you can see it in your own life. Healthy distractions aren't bad. If you're constantly in situations or with people that drain you, you must have ways to revive yourself. [00:07:00] For me, quick ways look like listening to music or audiobooks, Playing sports or board games with friends or my family, watching good movies, having good conversations with my friends, walking outside for fresh air, watching a sunset, cooking meals, especially for family or friends.

While it's good to have alone time, it can be taken to an unhealthy extreme. Make sure you're not isolating yourself. If you've spent the majority of the holidays on your own without meaningful conversations with friends and person on the phone, or even through messaging, you're likely isolating yourself.

If you feel lonely, that's obviously a sign that you're isolated. Instead of waiting for someone to rescue you, take action. Invite a friend over or plan to meet up. Whatever the circumstances, decide to keep your calm. Intense moments, remember to take a breath, pause to think, and detach from the intensity of the emotions before you act.

By doing that, you'll make better decisions about what to do next, and save [00:08:00] yourself from regret. Again, tip two, prepare for the stress and emotions. Tip three, plan ahead and set boundaries with your parents. Think of it this way to stop a fire. You can either fight it as it arises reactively or proactively install sprinklers, smoke detectors, and fire extinguishers.

Time with your parents is no different. Making a plan proactively does require some time and effort, but it's a smart investment that it reduces stress, sets expectations and protects you. A good plan will naturally include when you'll see your parents and for how long. It will also set healthy boundaries with your parents informing them how to treat you.

When it comes to the holidays, it's okay to lay down those rules with your parents. For example, you can tell your dad that you won't talk to him about your mom or vice versa. Boundaries communicated in advance also give people the option to opt out of interacting with you, which prevents drama. By the way, don't feel guilty for [00:09:00] setting boundaries.

If you're not used to this, it might feel mean. That's not true. Boundaries are a sign of a healthy person. Listen to that again. Imagine not having boundaries and letting anyone do whatever they want to you that would be extremely unhealthy and end very badly for you. And them. Boundaries aren't only good for you, but also for your parents.

It'll help you have a healthier relationship with them. If you have kids, make sure to protect them. Don't sacrifice your kids' sanity just to please your relatives or parents. Your immediate family is most important now. For more on boundaries, listen to episode 36 of the Restored podcast@restoredministry.com slash 36.

Don't only set boundaries, but be ready to enforce them. If you tell someone this is the boundary and they break it, there need to be consequences without them, they'll ignore your boundaries next time. As part of your preparation, be ready for the predictable [00:10:00] circumstances that will arise, such as a conflict with a specific relative, your dad or mom bringing their new partner to the party, or whatever else.

Prepare for how you'll avoid those situations, or how you'll handle them, such as, when your dad introduces his new girlfriend, simply say, Hi. I'm Joey. When that overbearing relative starts pelting you with questions, say, I'm sorry, I need to run to the bathroom. When your mom starts bad mouthing your dad, politely excuse yourself to grab food.

It's crucial to remember that spending time with one parent is not a betrayal of the other. Healthy relationships with both are essential. Many people like us benefit from spending separate days with each parent. By spending Christmas Eve with your dad and Christmas Day with your mom, here are the benefits.

1. It allows you to focus on each parent without, hopefully, worrying about the other. 2. It gives each parent assurance that they're going to have uninterrupted time with you. 3. You can avoid burning out. If siblings are part of the [00:11:00] equation, include them in the planning process. Although the approach may vary depending on the nature of those sibling relationships.

Hopefully, you can approach the holidays as a team. To start, create a group chat and start asking good questions to get the discussion going. If things get stuck, make a plan for yourself, share it, and ask them what they think. Although a good plan is helpful, no plan is perfect. Don't plan every minute.

Also, allow some flexibility in your plan in case things change. A back up plan if things go badly is smart too, such as staying with relatives or friends if the time with your family implodes. But what if your relationship with your parents is toxic? If it's to the extent that you can't see your mom or dad That's rough.

I'm so sorry. I hate that you're going through that. In that case, what can you do to experience some sort of community instead of your family? That might look like going to a friend's house or even having friends over to your place. You'd be surprised by how happy it makes other people to host or receive an invitation during the [00:12:00] holidays.

Ideally, choose friends or a family that models what it means to be a true and good family, the kind you want for your future. By the way, if you live at home with one parent, a plan like this is extra difficult. Do what's within your power to set boundaries. You might be able to spend a little extra time with the parent that doesn't live at home.

In that case, speak with your parent who does live at home, setting that expectation and explaining why you'll be spending a little more time with your other parent. To solidify your plan and boundaries, write it down, whether on paper, an app, or a calendar. Feel free to copy this Google Doc schedule template and fill in your details.

You can get that by downloading this PDF. Again, tip three, plan ahead and set boundaries with your parents. Tip four, communicate the plan. By far, this is the most difficult tip. A fair amount of you will not complete it. Why? It's scary and uncomfortable. I get it, I've been there. Perhaps you've never stood up for yourself like this, or you're [00:13:00] unsure how your parents will respond.

Just remember that an action has a cost, too. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten. You deserve better. When communicating, it's best to do it well ahead of time. Already cutting it close? Don't worry. Better late than never. In crafting how you want to communicate, follow the advice of speaker and author Donald Miller.

First, figure out what you want to say, such as the main points and order. Then, figure out how you want to say it, such as the words you'll use in the form of communication. In figuring out what to say, a few tips. Lead with your intentions, such as affirming that you want to see your parents and spend time with them.

Make sure they know they're part of the plan. You have every right to express your feelings to your parents. Be honest and tell them your needs. Brutal honesty and vulnerability might not give them warm, fuzzy feelings, but hopefully they'll respect you for your honesty. And if they don't, at least you know that you spoke [00:14:00] your truth.

Naturally, this assumes you're in a good spot where you have at least a decent relationship with your parents and you can talk to them. Sometimes that isn't the case. In solving how to say it, some things to consider. In person is best, video or phone is next, then voice memo, and finally email or text is last.

At other times a letter is most effective. Start with I'm reaching out to set expectations and make sure we spend time together. Be real saying things like, I love you, but it can be really hard around the holidays to please you both and not offend you. I need you to understand my decisions, my boundaries, and that the tension in our family makes it difficult to enjoy the holidays.

If you can't see both parents, give the reason why. At least in a diplomatic way, focusing more on yourself than them. Such as, I can't afford it. It's too exhausting for me right now. It's too much on me or my [00:15:00] family. Or, I need a break this year. What if your parents get upset? Stay calm. Try to display empathy by placing yourself in their shoes, yet keep your boundaries.

Keep in mind that your parents are learning to navigate the holidays too, so give them some grace. Then, speak the truth by saying what you're thinking and feeling. As part of that conversation, ask good questions. When people make unreasonable requests, FBI negotiator Chris Voss suggests asking the question, How am I supposed to do that?

The intent behind the question is to find an answer. But often, the request made is so difficult or impossible that the person who made it feels stumped by the question. You can also ask questions aimed at understanding and empathy, such as, In your mind, what did you expect this year? Or, If you were in my shoes, what would you do if your mom and dad were asking what you are right now?

Whatever happens, don't allow someone to take control of your plan [00:16:00] and adapt it at your expense. For example, if you get a request from your dad to attend a party or see him during the time you're spending with your mom, you can simply point to the plan and remind him of it. Learn from it all too. Don't feel the need to have the perfect plan or perfectly execute the plan.

Instead, look at it as a sort of experiment to find the right balance between your parents. You can then make changes next year based on what you learn. See it also as an opportunity to become a better, stronger person. Think about the lessons you can use in the future, especially to build your own family.

To help, my team and I have developed copy and paste templates here to communicate with your parents via text, voice memo, email, phone call, video call, or even a letter. You can get those templates by downloading the PDF. Again, tip 4, communicate the plan. Tip 5, enjoy the holidays. Ironically, forgetting to enjoy the holidays is easier than it sounds.

Creating new traditions, especially if you're married or soon will [00:17:00] be, is a great way to reset and redefine the holidays. Serving others, such as the poorer, elderly, and nursing homes, is another way to break the cycle with selflessness. If you're like me, spending time with your friends makes the holidays much more enjoyable, too.

While it's good to spend time with your parents, make sure you block out some time to spend with your friends, too. So often, since spending time with both parents separately can be so time consuming, our other relationships suffer. Do what you can to plan some time with those people that you like to see.

The extra effort will pay off. Keep in mind that you might need to lower your expectations for the holidays, unfortunately. Holiday traditions in your family might die because of the divorce. You might not feel the same joy, safety, and security with your parents anymore. That's hard to swallow. In the midst of that, try to focus on the deeper meaning of the holiday.

For example, Christmas is a time to delve into the mind boggling mystery of God becoming a vulnerable, weak, human baby. Don't let the [00:18:00] stress and challenges in your life Distract you from things like that. Again, tip five, enjoy the holidays. Improve how you handle the holidays in your broken family. If you do what you've always done for the holidays, you'll get what you've always gotten.

As a result, the stress and challenges from your broken family can easily overwhelm you and cause you to do things that you'll later regret. But there is a better way. If you execute the tips in this recording, even though some are uncomfortable, you'll be better equipped to navigate this time of year and benefit in many ways.

Save yourself from trying to please or fix everyone. Avoid burning out from the stress and difficult emotions. Stay in control by planning time with your parents. Setting expectations and boundaries that protect you and your relationships. Experience relief, feel less alone, and perhaps even enjoy the holidays again.

In the end, instead of being controlled by your emotions or the demands of others, you'll be in control. Remember, you're not alone, [00:19:00] and you're not doomed to experience the holidays like this forever. We're here to guide you through the messiness. Know someone who would benefit from this guide? If you want, share it with them.

Here are a few resources to further help you navigate the holidays and the other challenges stemming from your parents divorce or the breakdown of your family. Podcasts. Restored, helping children of divorce. Ranked in the top 20 podcasts on divorce, the Restored podcast exists for teens and young adults from divorce or broken families.

On it, we feature stories and expert advice on how to navigate the challenges in your family and even find healing so you can break the cycle. Listen now at restoredministry. com slash podcast. Community. Restored's online community. If you'd like a private place to talk about the challenges that you face in your broken family, join our private and free online community built for people like us.

It'll help you feel less alone, get advice from people who've been through your experiences, and challenge you to grow into a [00:20:00] better, stronger person. Join at restoredministry. com slash community. Course. Broken to whole, tactics to heal from your parents divorce or broken marriage. In just two hours of short videos, learn 17 years worth of lessons from a trauma therapist who's helped hundreds heal.

By taking the free course, you'll benefit in numerous ways. Identify the root cause of your struggles. Learn why the trauma of your parents divorce or family dysfunction is so damaging. Feel validated and less alone in your struggles. Get simple tools and tactics to heal. understand and better navigate your emotions, build healthy relationships and a better life, avoid passing your brokenness onto the people you love the most.

Sign up for free at restoredministry. com slash broken to whole book. It's Not Your Fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents to force. Nobody shows teens and young adults from broken families how to handle all the [00:21:00] pain and problems that stem from their family's breakdown.

Without guidance, they feel alone and continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping, relationship struggles, and more. It's Not Your Fault features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges they face. After reading it, teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems, healing tactics to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God.

How to make important decisions about their future by the book or get the first chapters for free at restored ministry. com slash books. Guys. I really hope that that helped you. My challenge to you is this take action, schedule a time this week or this weekend to plan out the holidays. 20 to 30 minutes is probably enough, but if you can't do that, do 10 to 15 minutes of planning, it's really going to help and to help [00:22:00] in that process.

You're welcome to download the PDF guide, five tips to navigate the holidays easily. In a broken family, you can do that at restored ministry. com slash holidays, or by clicking the link in the show notes. Again, it's totally free and you already heard the content in this episode, but perhaps you want the digital version.

So you can reference it at a later date, or maybe share it with someone like a friend or a sibling. And by downloading it, you're also going to get. Yes. Um, and you can also use this to get access to some free resources that come along with it, like a worksheet to plan out your time with your parents.

Also a copy and paste template that you can edit to communicate with your parents via message or a call or whatever way. Again, that's all restored ministry. com slash holidays. Those bonuses are within the PDF themself and you can get all that at restored ministry. com such holidays or by clicking the link in the show notes.

Overall, guys, I just hope that the holidays are less stressful and more enjoyable for you. Hang in there, I know this can be a really difficult time of the year. That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever podcast app that you use.

Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future [00:23:00] episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help, and it only takes a few seconds. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We definitely appreciate the feedback and also the feedback.

That helps people find the podcast in closing. Always remember, you're not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we're here to help and keep in mind the words of CS Lewis, who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#134: Holidays After Your Parents’ Divorce: What Nobody Tells You | Danielle

While the rest of the world is filled with holiday cheer, people like us from divorced or broken families usually feel very differently. While you can’t magically make the holidays happy and drama-free, what if there was a way to make them less stressful and more enjoyable? 

That’s what we’ll discuss in this episode, plus:

1. The challenges that come from navigating 3 Christmases

2. Some typical fears and barriers that complicate the holidays and tips to handle them

3. A FREE resource to help you navigate the holidays, so they’re less stressful and more enjoyable

Get the Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

Links & Resources

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

===

Danielle: [00:00:00] The holidays always felt chaotic. That must be just what this time of year is about is just drama and chaos.

Joey: If I go over and choose to spend this Christmas day with dad, then mom's kind of on her own.

Danielle: Maybe I shouldn't go do two Christmases on the same day. Maybe I should space them out and say that is not a good day for me, but if that's a great day for y'all, how about I join in on like a phone call?

I think both of my parents wanted me to have a good time and be happy and celebrate, um, but there was also a little layer of sadness that. They weren't all together.

Joey: Why are we doing this all in the first place? Is it just to like buy like materialistic kind of empty gifts for whatever reason? Or is there something deeper?

Danielle: The chaos that I've felt from this in the past doesn't have to be the way I choose to move forward. And that has actually been really kind of cool.

Joey: Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better [00:01:00] life.

The My guest today is Danielle. Danielle lives in Central Florida and works as an occupational therapist. As a child of divorce, Danielle has found great healing in faith, counseling, and support groups, and she hopes that her story may help others as they continue on in their journey towards healing and wholeness.

Now, while the rest of the world is filled with holiday cheer, people like us who come from divorced or broken families usually feel very differently. Navigating the holidays for us is just really complicated and brings a ton of emotions along with it. And while you can't magically make the holidays happy and drama free, what if there was a way To make them less stressful and more enjoyable.

That's what we discussed in this episode. Plus we talk about the challenges that come from navigating three Christmases or perhaps more in your case, how you're not alone if you feel guilty for spending time with one parent, but not the other on a particular holiday, how feeling sad is actually okay, even though we often run from it.

And we talk about some typical fears and barriers that complicate the holidays and some tips to handle them as well. And so if you dread the holidays or you just want to make [00:02:00] them less stressful and more enjoyable. This episode is for you. Before we dive into the conversation, you'll hear Danielle and me talk about our holiday guide.

Our holiday guide is a beautifully designed PDF that contains five tips, really practical tips, to help you better navigate the holidays in a broken family. It's totally free and you get, again, really practical advice you're not going to hear anywhere else. A worksheet to plan out your time with your parents, a copy and paste template that you can edit for communicating with your parents, whether that's through a phone call or Or a message.

And then most of all, the guide will just help you feel less alone and more in control when the holidays hit. And so if you want to get that guide, go to restored ministry. com slash holidays, or just click the link in the show notes, I'll remind you guys at the end as well. And with that,

Microphone (2- ATR USB microphone) & UT-VID 00K0519341: here's our conversation.

Joey: Daniel. So good to have you on the show.

Thanks for being here.

Danielle: You're welcome. Thanks for having me. I feel grateful to get to be here and just get to chat with you.

Joey: Yeah, no, when we've had previous chats, I was, yeah, just really impressed with you and I wanted to bring you on because I know you've had to [00:03:00] navigate the holidays. You are no stranger to this.

So I thought it was good to kind of bring you on. chat about it and hopefully offer some guidance to anyone out there who's just really struggling with this whole holiday season, the upcoming holiday season, wherever we're at when they're listening to it. And, uh, so I wanted to start with a little bit of maybe context setting.

So obviously we're going to get into kind of the challenges with the holidays, some solutions that we've maybe both have found helpful and then all that. But before we get there, I'm curious, yeah, set the scene a little bit to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, like What type of kind of family gatherings you guys have and how many parents are you navigating?

Set parents, all of that.

Danielle: Yeah. So, um, growing up I had a relationship with my dad's grandparents, so they were like a separate home and then my mom was one and then my mom's side of the family. So. A typical Christmas looked like at least three Christmases. Um, and then typical Thanksgiving looked like whoever, whenever, however, it was, um, kind of, that one was a [00:04:00] little bit more of the, like, I don't want to say like the lesser holiday, but that was the one that as a family, we didn't put a ton of emphasis on, but Christmas definitely looked like.

Each weekend, there was something going on. There were different groups of people to buy gifts for. Later in my life, um, I had the opportunity to reconnect with my dad. And so then that was another Christmas on top of that other one. So it ended up being a round four. I had a season as well where my dad and my stepmom, that was a Christmas together.

Um, and so that was newer to navigate as well on some of those expectations. So it. Had for me some overwhelming and also a little bit of excitement that you had all this extra time and other people to get to see, but at the same time, I would say overwhelming was the feeling of it. Whenever Christmas would come around, there was, I felt like there was a lot of places to go and not enough of me to go around to everyone.

Joey: Totally. I love the way you said that, like overwhelming, not enough here to go around. Um, someone said it recently, like, um, too much [00:05:00] bread, not enough, like jam or something.

Danielle: Yeah. That'd be so real. Exactly.

Joey: Yeah. And no, no. And part of the reason I wanted to have the conversation with you is because you've had so many different dynamics of, you know, like myself, I actually haven't had to navigate the step family dynamic.

I've had close friends of mine. I've walked with people who have, but, but you certainly have. So this is great that we're as hard as that is, this is great that we're able to offer. You know, you're able to offer some wisdom to everyone listening. So man, that's a lot of Christmases. And then one of the points that we talk about when this comes up, the holidays and everything is that because it feels so overwhelming, it's easy to not like think about it, to just put it off.

And then when we don't think about it, when we don't put like a plan in place and communicate that plan, which is relatively simple, but it can be hard, then it can get even more overwhelming and more stressful. Did you experience that?

Danielle: One hundred percent, I think it's. I feel like I thought about a lot of the conversations I wanted to have, um, when I was, I would say when I was younger, so my, my step parents [00:06:00] didn't come in until like the, my last year of high school, um, or my step mom and my dad.

Um, so for me, I didn't know that I could say something. I just felt honored to get invited. So I didn't speak up a ton if that makes any sense on what would work for me or what wouldn't work. Um, it just kind of was something like I should make it happen. And then a little bit more. In my 20s, I didn't feel again.

I didn't know that I could voice a little bit more of what I needed and what those holidays needed to look like

Joey: totally. And it's a great point that you make that I think it does change. Like, when you're in high school, you're kind of in one mode. Um, you're often just going along with parents and you, yeah, certainly want to set healthy boundaries, but there's a little bit of like a limit, especially depending on how like your parents react to those boundaries.

When you get to college is a little bit more autonomy, a little bit more freedom distance between you and your parents. Um, Um, but even then, you know, we're kind of along for the ride, but then once you kind of move it on your own, maybe that's more of a distinguishing factor than just being a young adult after college.

But, um, yeah, I think that can certainly be the case [00:07:00] here. Not, not everyone goes to college, of course, but, uh, but yeah, being out on your own, I think can be like a new level of challenge. So I think there's like unique challenges in each of those, what was of those kind of three scenarios, which was the most challenging for you, would you say high school, college, or kind of the young adult?

Phase or did they all have their own kind of

Danielle: young adult, the young adults in the hardest. I don't like, I don't know about you, but like, this is going to sound a little like at least in high school, I was like, okay, I know the groove. And then in college there were built in breaks. Um, but young adult felt a little more challenging because it was the first time I felt like I had to decide what was right for me.

I don't want to say present that but then bring that into my family situation. Yeah. And that's like hard. I feel like on two levels, right? Because there's the one of like, okay, well, I'm like changing the way things have been if I do something different. Um, but then on like a little bit of a deeper side, it was kind of stopping and saying, okay, what do I want Christmas to look like?

Like, what do I want Thanksgiving to look like? And that can feel Really [00:08:00] big. And, um, I'm learning to be a little bit more of a dreamer and give myself space where I can like. You know, what could that look like? And I don't know if other people like us have a little bit of a struggle with that, where you're like, there's endless possibilities.

So what do I want this season to look like? And how do I want to communicate that to my family? I would, I would say is a huge

Joey: piece. I can totally relate with that. And I, um, yeah, it's like, what I hear you saying is when you're a young adult, there's instead of like, just going along for the ride sort of thing.

Now you are the one making the decisions and kind of somewhat of like imposing your will on the situation. And if. Especially maybe your wish, desire, dream, whatever isn't what a parent wants or your family wants. And then it introduces conflict, which is never fun. Um, especially when things are like when the conflict isn't healthy.

And so I totally get that. So I'm curious, like maybe talk a little bit more about that. What were some of the challenges and Maybe the emotions that went along with those challenges, um, in addition to what you've shared so far when it came to navigating the holidays as a [00:09:00] young adult or any other point.

Danielle: Yeah, I would, I would say the, the frustration that I felt with the holidays, and I think you kind of talk about it a little bit is emotional exhaustion. So I would feel like, I don't know if you remember, there is a cartoon character, the Tasmanian devil, and he would like, it would be this really. Pretty seen.

And then you'd see him just come like spinning in and things would get like all torn up and then he would stop and he would kind of look like, Oh wait, what happened? And then he would like spin off again. Um, and I wouldn't say that's exactly how I felt, but it would feel more like a tornado. It would feel like I would kind of get caught up in the holiday season.

It would feel very chaotic and it would feel like I didn't really know what other people were expecting from me. I didn't know if I could be in all those places, but let me just go along for the ride and make myself kind of. Experience. It was a lot of the, I would say probably that like beginning of young adult ages.

Cause that was just kind of the norm. Like the holidays always felt chaotic. So why would that feel any different? That must be just what this time of year is about is just [00:10:00] drama and chaos. And maybe you're just feeling a little stressed and that's just a part of it. And then I didn't realize that I could kind of pivot out of that and turn into something where I got to kind of, how were you talking about, like having a little bit more autonomy that I could say, Hey, maybe that's too much for me to do in one day.

You know, maybe I shouldn't go do two Christmases on the same day. Maybe we should like, maybe I should space them out and say that is not a good day for me, but if that's a great day for y'all, how about I join in on like a phone call or like a FaceTime call to say, Hey, for a minute, instead of physically being in that same room.

Joey: I like that.

Danielle: So I would say it was a shift from like, what felt like chaos into a little bit more calm and a little bit more peace for that time of the year.

Joey: I love that. And I want to go deeper into that. I, um, one of the things I wanted to add for anyone, maybe newly married and has maybe a baby or a couple of kids too, that adds like a new layer to it as well.

Cause I remember with me, you kind of realize how, like in a new way, how exhausting it can be to do two [00:11:00] Christmases, three Christmases, like whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. And then you bring kids along and it's like, my goodness, this is exhausting for them as well. And so that's, that was a little bit more of a wake up call, I think for me too.

Cause I was like you too. I just kind of put my head down, just got through it. And then thankfully before kids, but, um, especially with kids, it was like, wow, okay. I can't like, Do this to other people, I need to set some healthy boundaries even more so than I had in the past. And so totally tracking with you there.

I'm curious, maybe I know we're talking about like our experiences through this, but what did you see in the people around you? What kind of negative impact did all these like challenges and drama and like all these events going on, whatever else we want to add, have maybe on other people around you, whether that's your siblings or your parents.

I'm just curious what you observed there.

Danielle: Yeah, I think a little bit for my parents, it would be maybe like some comparison of like, well, how was that experience with them? And I, it could have been like the ones that I was seeing it through, but sometimes there might be comments that I would take as hurtful of like, Oh, it sounds like [00:12:00] you had a really good time with them with a little bit of a negative undertone.

And again, I think both of my parents wanted me to have a good time and be happy and celebrate. Um, but there was also a little layer of sadness that. They weren't all together. I know I felt a little layer of that sadness when we were coming together. To be quite honest, I was the one who was bouncing between all of the places.

So I, in chatting with just some like siblings in that sense, they, they would kind of express when we would have two Christmases, that would be like, Oh yeah, we have, you know, it's, it's a lot. The holidays are crazy. Um, and even now as adults, when we'll kind of talk about it, there's, I would say a little bit of like an unspoken thing.

Yeah. Of like, Hey, the holidays are just going to be crazy. How about we catch up in like January or we catch up in like do something beforehand is just kind of understood. Cause they, they also have other sets of sibling, like other sets of parents and it's branched a little bit more. So I would say their experience has been, I haven't gotten to talk directly about them with it.

So that would actually be a really great thing to get to do. Um, if that [00:13:00] door, when that door opens. I would say just kind of this rollercoaster that we're on a little bit together of like, okay, it was nice to see you. Like, great to see you too. We've, we've got like a few others that we got to go see as well.

So maybe not quite like a receiving line at a wedding, but something where you're just kind of moving through the process a little quickly.

Joey: Totally. No, I totally get that. There's not as much depth. It's more like width or breadth. And yeah, I'm, I'm with you there. You made me think of something that I think a lot of parents experience, um, which is almost like a rivalry between the families or between children.

You know, this parent and that parent, like thinking like, Oh, well, if I give the kids more gifts, then they'll want to come to this side of the family or, you know, whatever it might be. And then, you know, one parent might have more resources and money to do that. Another one might not. So it makes them feel like they're not able to give as great of an experience.

So definitely a lot of tricky dynamics, you know, just want to acknowledge for the parents too. But, um, but for us, I think I know in some ways, like. Yeah, I felt guilty. It's like, [00:14:00] okay, if I go over and choose to spend this Christmas day or Christmas Eve with dad, then mom's kind of on her own or, you know, vice versa.

And it's just like, you can never really please everyone. And there's always someone kind of missing out. So that certainly, um, that heaviness that you mentioned, I can relate to. And I think it, it is unfortunate. And, and that's where I think, you know, some planning ahead and setting expectations and having like somewhat of a plan to just, Connect with each parent if you can in some way, even if it's simple and you know, assuming you're on like good terms, then I think it can bring like a lot of peace that it's like, okay, I'm not neglecting them.

It's just, this isn't their time right now. Their time will be the next day or coming up soon.

Danielle: Yeah. And I think you bring up a great point with that too, Joey, when you were talking about like. It's their time and there can be a little bit of rivalry. And if I spend one, I would sometimes feel that way.

Like if I spend this time at my dad's grandparent's house and not with my mom on this Christmas holiday, then I would internally put this pressure of like, well, then the time I'm with her has to be extra great, you know? Cause she'll feel bad. So I need to [00:15:00] make that like a really special time, which no one put that pressure on me.

It was just a lie and internal pressure that I was building up. For myself, you know, like, okay, I need to bring my a game or, you know, help make it great to help cover up this gap that it's so sad that we're not all together instead of just enjoying the time that I have with them. And this is going to sound like let the sadness be there.

It doesn't have to be the whole piece, but. It's, it's okay if someone feels uncomfortable, it's okay if I feel slightly uncomfortable, it's okay if there's a little bit of sadness that not everyone's together because that is a consequence of divorce, right? It's a death of the love my parents shared together and our parent, like, it's Anyone who is sick has experienced divorce.

That's a piece that's present. And just like you would grieve a family member who's not there on Christmas and you feel sad. I think it's okay to to touch that place. I don't think it's okay to live there the whole season. I don't think it's okay to avoid that whole season, but it's I think that was something I ran from a lot, was just [00:16:00] that, like, okay, well, we can't feel sad about this instead of kind of just acknowledging it for a minute and then, or acknowledging it in a, in a healthy, appropriate way, and then moving on and enjoying what Christmas is today, or what Thanksgiving is today, or what the holidays are today.

Joey: That's so true. Like, especially, yeah, in our culture today, we tend to look at like the quote unquote negative emotions, like the things that feel ucky and uncomfortable. And we try to just like, get out of them, run from them. But there's something about like, kind of just letting it happen, sitting in the midst of it.

That's so powerful. I love that you brought that up. My daughter tonight, it was so funny. Lucy, she, um, she's three now. And, um, my son John Paul is four months old and, um, he was crying and I was like just about to get him out of the car. And so, but Lucy was next to him when he was crying and she was like, had a, I think her hand on his head.

And she was saying, it's okay to feel sad, buddy. Like so profound. I'm like, wow, something like, thank God. Like this, she knows that. Like, um, and I think it, you know, it applies here too. Like it's, it's okay [00:17:00] to like feel sad. It's okay. You don't need to like try to extinguish that or run from it. Like you said so well, you can kind of just be in the midst of it.

And in the business world, one of the concepts that's kind of helped me that relates here is like you're in any career, really, there's always like so many problems to solve and things to like deal with. And. Just like we're talking about, it can be overwhelming. And so this whole idea of like, you know, in, in business or in any sort of like leadership, you're kind of faced with like putting out fires, right?

You're like the fireman, firewoman. And, um, this whole idea that like, well, sometimes some fires have to burn. And one of the things I learned early on was like, um, yeah, sometimes like the small fires especially have to burn. Like we just have to let those burn, like we don't need to put them on and solve every situation, which for, uh, for people like us who are more type A that's hard, but, uh, but I think there is a bit of surrender like in that, that can bring a lot of peace too.

So it is an interesting like dichotomy though, kind of what we're all saying here, what we're saying here is like, between like kind of taking charge and control and having a plan and communicating that plan. But at the same time, like having like the flexibility and the openness and the [00:18:00] surrender of like, well, Everything might not go according to my plan.

And if it doesn't, like, am I going to be destroyed or can I be adaptable and just be like, you know, that's okay. Like there's something good that can come out of even this situation. So it's interesting dynamic between like flexibility and having like some boundaries in a plan. Any thoughts on any of that?

Danielle: Yes. Cause it's, um, I think of it, I think there's a phrase that's like. Essentially, you're creating a plan and you're holding it very loosely, if that makes any sense. So there is something in place, but if that alters and changes, it's, it's okay to let it pivot to a degree is at least kind of what I'm learning to experience instead of holding so tight to every tradition that needs to be kept a certain way or on the flip side, not caring about anything and not voicing any of the things that I would like to see happen during the holidays, for sure.

Sure. This is going to sound really silly, but one year I did, um, and probably a little type a, so if, uh, if anyone is not this way, like I respect you and I totally feel Billy on that. Um, but there was one [00:19:00] year I actually did like an itinerary cause I was coming home for a week and I just needed it. So I felt organized with like how things were going to be, but it actually was super helpful.

Um, For my mom and extended family members that I was going to see, I just kind of like shot it out with a little email on it that said, like, it's okay if these plans change, but this was just some of the things that we talked about wanting to do. And so I started putting them on different spaces in the calendar.

It's okay if they shift, but I just wanted you to know that I, I heard you and I care about spending time with you and I'm looking forward to it. So I just wanted to put those things that we talked about that were important on a calendar. Please feel free to adjust it. How you need to, um, and so that at least for me was really helpful, but that's kind of what I mean by the idea of like, make a plan, but hold it loosely.

It's kind of like, like something that you can kind of piecemeal and move around a little bit if you need to. But you have the, like the blocks in place and you have the foundation in place a little bit.

Joey: Okay. Yeah. Almost like a Lego, like build.

Danielle: Thank you. Legos. Yes. Thank you. [00:20:00] Like you're building the Legos and it's okay if the details change up a little bit, but you've got the idea.

Yeah.

Joey: Yeah. Wow. No, I can relate. And I think as much as you and I are like type A, so I'm sorry for like turning some people off to this, but I think there, there is so much of a benefit to kind of bringing out maybe that part of your personality that you don't use often of like being more of a planner.

Cause it does bring a lot of, a lot of peace and structure and helps set expectations. Cause I think that part of the reason I've seen the holidays can be so tricky is like everyone has their own idea of what's going to happen. And then when the expectations aren't met. Naturally, disappointment follows.

And then if disappointment like broods for long enough, resentment starts to seep in and that can be really devastating for any sort of relationship, especially relationships with our parents. And so I think it's, yeah, setting those expectations, like we have been talking about, it's like really, really huge.

And, and that's actually, you know, in the guide that we're going to talk about in a second, um, that's the. Kind of itinerary planning is something we definitely recommend. And I remember after we built the guide, I just like used the [00:21:00] tips and the resources in it to plan out the holiday for myself. And it was great.

It was like really helpful. I was like, this is awesome. And not, it wasn't just me who built it. It was our team too. I, my face is on it so that if anyone's head gets chopped off, it's my head, but it's, but, uh, but it was certainly a team effort and definitely pulled on wisdom from a lot of different people.

But anyway, uh, I think whether you're a planner or not being a planner for this thing, this season, I think is going to only benefit you.

Danielle: Absolutely. Yeah. And if you're not a planner too, like for me, it's a lot harder to just sit and be still in some of those moments. So I'd say like, if someone who's listening is not a planner, like, Lean into that non planning part of you, because there may be some really beautiful spontaneous moments that someone else in your family who is a planner, like, helped create space for, and you can call your family into attention for that.

We have a family member who is really good at kind of just creating some fun moments that I could not because I just don't work that way. When [00:22:00] they, when they do, they just bring such light and such levity and some jovialness. So if that's you, lean into that strength. If you're just feeling in that moment, like, this is a time we need to turn on a movie and watch it, or we need to sing, or going and looking at Christmas lights sounds really fun right now.

Let's go get in the car and go do that. That's okay to also bring that out. In this time as well,

Joey: I love that. And what I hear you saying too, is it's okay to have, like, if you're not a planner, a simple plan, like just the main pieces, the main like components of the building that you're trying to build.

You don't need to have like every detail in the furniture, like figured out. It's like, okay. Go do that a little bit. That that's no. That that's really helpful. And even if, if you are a type A, just make sure you put in like some flex time in your schedule, like spontaneous time,

Danielle: 100 percent write it in there.

It's really good. It's super helpful. We get to keep practicing. It's very, I

Joey: love it. I love it. So I'm curious, uh, Danielle, how did you find out about the, the holiday guide?

Danielle: I think, so I had read it in your book, it's not your fault. [00:23:00] And then I think I listened to a podcast similar to like this one where you would have the tip guide.

And I was like, I need to apply this this year. Like I've heard it. Let me just apply it. Let me see how it actually, how it actually works. And that's, that's how I found out about it.

Joey: I love it. That's awesome. And I think that's it. Like it's really, it's simple. It's not super complicated, but, um, it can be hard to execute on because there's just a lot of like emotional resistance.

So I'm curious, like what sort of resistance did you maybe face before and doing some of this stuff? You know, it's not like we invented this stuff. We're just kind of saying like, here are the things that you need to do that will make the holidays more enjoyable, less stressful, less overwhelming. So I'm just curious if there was any resistance, even with like using the guide or kind of putting the tips into action.

Danielle: Absolutely. I. I would say my biggest resistance was probably a little bit of pride in there of like, okay, well, I know how to work this, so I, I've got it figured out. I don't need to jump into it. Some of it was, well, it's too simple. Could it really work? You know, so a little bit of doubt in there. [00:24:00] And then I would say, I think the other one, and I've heard someone say this before, a little bit of the unknown, right?

Like if I, if I step in and I try something different, how much am I going to rock the boat? I know what this discomfort is like, and it's consistent. This other thing is so unknown. What is that jump going to look like? So a little bit of fear in there too. I would say were some emotions I was journaling through and just, I think finally just came to a head of like, I should just try at least a couple of these things.

They seem like good ideas. Yeah.

Joey: Cool. No, I love it. And I get all of those, like, yeah, I'm pretty good at pride. So I can relate to that. And, and the whole, um, I forget the term for this, but like, when we think less of things that are simple or sophistication bias, sophistication bias, where it's like, Oh, you know, It's so simple.

I couldn't really be effective and helpful. And yeah, I think like when I've been challenged in those situations and I do the thing, I'm like, wow, okay, this is great. Even like we talked previously, I think about atomic habits, the Jim Clare book. Yeah. And like the whole [00:25:00] idea in that book is that the 1 percent improvement, which is like, really?

Like 1%? I want like 80 percent or a hundred percent. I'm actually really smart and I can do that.

Danielle: Exactly. Change myself overnight. It's going to be great. Like, yeah.

Joey: I get it all planned out in my head. It's perfect. And then it doesn't happen. But no, I think that sophistication bias is super real. So I'm glad you brought that up.

And then the unknown too. Yeah, it is scary, especially some people have a little bit of a track record with like putting boundaries in place with their family. Others don't. And so I think it's definitely scarier for people who are just starting. That for the first time, if there's a little bit of a track record and they speak up, then there's a little bit of, Oh, okay.

The parents saw this come in siblings, family, relatives, because relatives who I know we haven't really talked about them as much, but that can be like another like aunts and uncles and people who, who love you, who want to see you, who it's like a lot of the time, it's just Good desires. I know there can be some drama in there, maybe some twisted desires at times, but yeah, I think like a lot of it is at the core is a good desire.

They just want to be [00:26:00] with you. So just want to acknowledge that for a second, but, um, yeah, no, that's, that's really good. Um, any other resistance or barriers that you hit on those super well? You know, the pride, the kind of simplicity, so sophistication, bias, the unknown, and um, I forget what the other one was, but that was a good point too.

Danielle: No worries. I think those are all the ones I've got, I've got for right now, but if I think of any others, I'll, I'll let you know.

Joey: No, I love it. And um, what about the guide itself was most helpful, would you say, for, for you in particular?

Danielle: I would say for me, like the, the big highlight one that I came up with, um, I am an evangelical Christian.

And I know not everyone listening is, but. I would get so caught up in Christmas and starting to like, I wouldn't necessarily say dread it, but not embracing it. And there's a piece in the guide where you talk about coming to God and praying to God, but also like recognizing it as a time for celebration.

And that is such a great gift, right? Like I get, this is a time where in my faith belief, the God of the universe chose to wrap himself in flesh and walk among us [00:27:00] so that he would He would suffer in the way I would, he would feel what I did so that in those moments when I'm walking around years and years later, I can know that the God I'm talking to has felt with me, has walked with me and has experienced what I'm experiencing right now on a deeper level than I am.

And that is just such a gift. And that is something that has given hope and peace and joy, not at this time of the year, but throughout the year. So it's such a beautiful way to end our church, like end the church calendar and the year calendar, and then kick off into the new year that. Getting to stop and realize that, for me, just really anchored and gave a why.

Like, why are we even gathering this season? Why am I choosing to stop and celebrate and be around my family and give a lot more time to gathering with friends this year? This, this is why, this is the reason for this moment and for this season. So that one, I think, just really anchored me a lot. Because when I go into those family gatherings, It feels a lot less pressure of it has to be something that I've seen on TV or this imagery [00:28:00] that I've made up in my head.

It's all coming from the grace of God that I get to walk into these spaces and have these relationships. And these are the parents that He has chosen for me. And even if you're not a believer in Christ or a Christian, I would even say just finding a reason to celebrate at the end of the year. It is a time of joy and of hope.

And kind of having that why when you're entering into it for me has been really helpful because all the rest of it can be distracting and can be really kind of chaotic and get caught up in people pleasing or in keeping a boundary or not keeping a boundary or trying to squeeze one more thing into an already packed schedule instead of just saying why, like, what is the whole reason for doing this?

Why am I doing this? At this time. So I know it's like a, a bigger one, but that, that big Y kind of helped put more of the practical pieces that were really helpful to me into place.

Joey: I love that. No, you're so articulate. And I definitely can relate on some of my levels with that. Yeah. It's so important.

Cause I think what. What I hear you saying is it gives like a reason and purpose [00:29:00] behind like some meaning behind like the effort that you're about to go through with this whole season, which is for people like us can be certainly extra challenging. I know, um, we'll get into this in a little bit, but even now, you know, thinking ahead to the holidays this year, Thanksgiving with my side.

So I'm married. If anyone doesn't know, and we spend, try to spend like either Christmas with my family and then like Thanksgiving with my wife's family or vice versa. Um, but on my side, of course, it's split in two. I know some families, you know, have three or four splits, which is super challenging. So it's tricky to kind of figure out, you know, who are we spending the holiday with?

I, um, I'm such a nerd. I have, uh, I just created it somewhat recently in my phone. Like I have an Apple note. That just like has tracked the last like five or more years of like, who I spent each holiday with, because I kind of forget to be honest with you. And so that's like one extra tip for anyone watching.

And it's like listening, it could be helpful. And you know, your future self will be thankful if you do that, because you can look back and now I'm just going to keep adding to that, especially now with kids, like things can just be a lot and you [00:30:00] forget like, what did we do that year? And so it would just save you a little bit of time and hassle if you kind of keep track of it.

But, um, on that note, I don't think it's, um, Maybe a good healthy thing to feel like you like, Oh, your family or your parents to always be with them for a particular holiday. I think it's more of like a gift that you can give to them. Um, and hopefully they can receive and you can like, it's a beautiful thing.

Um, but I think there can be an unhealthy dynamic if there's like a lot of pressure. So, so we never, we try to avoid like language, like it's your holiday. No, it's Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever anyone's and, um, and we are choosing to be with you. We want to be with you. And I've even tried to use that language with my parents.

It's like, no, it's like, dad, I want to see you. We want to see you, mom. We want to be with you. We want to see you. We want to visit you all that. So I found that helpful as well, but you're right. Like, it's so important to like get that foundational stuff of like, why are we doing this all in the first place?

Is it just to like buy like materialistic kind of. Empty gifts for whatever reason, or is there something deeper going on here? [00:31:00]

Danielle: Yeah. And I found like having that depth makes the practicals feel a little more grounded, if that makes any sense. So in some of those simple things, a couple other things you talked about in your guide was having, um, Like a little bit of a support system if it's a little more challenging and in years past, I would find that I would end up calling my friends during the holidays with like some kind of drama blow up for like, I just need to vent.

Um, so the year I found your guide, I was more proactive with it and it was just great to, I have four friends that I feel very close with where I can just share my heart and share my thoughts and share my feelings as they're happening. And so. I want to say it was like after Halloween. I think I texted them and I was just like, Hey, the holidays are coming.

This is a time where I tend to get really stressed and I feel overwhelmed. Is it okay if I send you text to just tell you what my plans are? Is it okay if I text you before I go to these plans and possibly text event? And can you be praying for me during this time? And in [00:32:00] years past, I'd always, you know, you just felt like it was a burden or like, Oh, well, they're busy with their family.

But honestly, it brought us a lot closer. Um, and I think a lot of my friends, some of them come from intact families and some of them don't, um, and the ones that don't, I have just felt like such a, like, deeper closeness with them from having just had that one moment of practically being open and starting that conversation early of like, Hey, this time is sometimes hard for me and I'll shut down or I'll shy away from it.

Um, so that one was just. I think really helpful for me to set that up. And then I know we've talked a lot about the itinerary, but making a plan and clearly communicating with family has been like such a gift. And we do growing up. My mom was really big on like, I, I grew up in Orlando. So we have theme parks close by.

So the thing was always, if we went to a theme park, it was like, what's the one ride you want to do today? So you don't feel disappointed. Um, and then whoever we were with, like you would, those were the first few rides you would do. So we've kind of carried that on into the holidays a little bit. So I like a rebirth that a [00:33:00] couple of years ago of like, all right, what's the one thing this Christmas that you want to do together that if that season passed, you would feel sad if we, if we didn't do.

And it's actually been really helpful because I think sometimes I have all these pictures of what Christmas would look like. But I don't remember what my mom's was last year, but mine last year was like, I just, it sounds so simple, but I wanted to sit on the couch with her and watch the Christmas movie elf and eat like popcorn and red and green M& M's like, that was it.

I was like, that just sounds so fun to me. I want to do it. And we did. And it was really just such a nice expectation setting with her. And so I've found that really helpful to just practically ask, you know, what is something. That you would like to do this Christmas and I can offer if I can do it or not, um, kind of jumping.

I know we've talked a lot about itinerary and practice, but just asking your parents what they're expecting for this Christmas. Um, and just being clear if you can or can't do it in a very loving and gracious way, I would say it's just kind of been helpful again, coming all [00:34:00] from that place of like love and joy.

That's, that's the whole reason we're getting together this season is for love and hope and joy and celebration.

Joey: So good. There's so many things you touched on, um, that I want to hit on. I love the whole like asking permission from your friends. I think there's something like so good about that that's like very respectful.

Um, not that it's like bad to reach out to friends when you're in a tough moment in Venn. I think good friends will be there for you during those moments. But I think there's something about like the proactiveness that you Brought out, which is awesome. And then getting their permission there. Yes. And then they're even like buy in of like, yeah, no, I want to help.

But it's not just like, I'm allowing you to do this thing. No, I like actually want to be there for you. And, and often it's not, you know, something that's super time intensive. It's just being there for a touch point. And that's kind of all we need, which I think is so, so good. And I love that you're kind of like, we're focusing on kind of maybe one big thing with each person or even that big thing, but like main thing with each person.

And I think that's so good. And, um, and then, yeah, when it comes to the expectations, I heard this recently, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts. And I think what I'd like to add, that [00:35:00] a happiness is, or equals happiness, equals expectations minus reality.

Danielle: Yes. So it's happiness, happiness equals expectations minus reality.

Joey: Yeah.

Danielle: That feels so right. Yeah.

Joey: I can't, it was some business guy said it, but, um, And the funny thing is like, we can't control reality. So there's one variable there that you can control and that's your expectation. So I think like setting simple expectations, that is what I learned from you there. I think that's really wise.

Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. And I know there's like a couple people out there who will say like, there's a whole dichotomy out there of like, well, don't have too low of expectations. Like you should have some high, but I think in, at least in my journey of being an adult child Some of this ground still feels really new.

Um, and so I think for me, if you're further along in this process and you're like, Hey, I can ask like a little bit more and like up the expectations, absolutely go for it. If that is like built and that is there, but I think staying [00:36:00] realistic, at least for me is healthy with expectations. And then. Kind of going back to that idea of, like, having a dream session about what the holidays is gonna look like, like, if there's space to be honest with yourself and journal, like, what do I expect this Christmas to look like?

Or this Thanksgiving or this holiday season to look like? And just be honest, like, With yourself and then looking at it and seeing like, Hey, is that like, is that going to be reality this year? Or am I like, am I shooting a little too low? Am I shooting a little too high just to put it on paper and out of your head?

And I think has been helpful. Yeah. It's just really helpful. So it's not rattling around in there.

Joey: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. And the other thing. That I found helpful. And I know others have too, is just throwing that, um, off of someone to just being like, Hey, here's my plan. What do you think? Is this a good plan?

Um, it's nice that, you know, um, you could do that with a significant other, like a best friend, siblings, perhaps of being like, Hey, what do you guys think? And I, I've done that with my siblings too, especially if we're all going to be together, you know, I'll be the nerd who writes up the itinerary and be like, what do you guys think?

And, and the [00:37:00] nerd, like, this is, you

Danielle: know what? Someone needs the nerds, like someone needs it to put a little structure in there and that's okay.

Joey: Yeah, no, no, it's helpful, but it's been great. And then we kind of make adjustments on the fly or even beforehand. And then it's like, okay, this is great. Like, we're kind of talking about expectations or tweaking the expectations where, you know, like you said, I think it's a good point.

Like, we don't want to have them so low. It's like, well, the holiday is just going to be horrible. I'm just going to skip out this year, which can be tempting at times, but, um, Yeah, I think, you know, talking it through with someone, it just, I know we're kind of going on about this, but guys, it doesn't need to be complicated.

Like literally whip out your iPhone or your, whatever phone you have. If you don't have a phone, like a paper or whatever, something you can draw on and, uh, and then, you know, just like come up with a simple plan. That's it. And one of the things that. Like you said before, um, in addition to the kind of prioritizing maybe experiences, um, you could also prioritize people, um, which might sound kind of mean, [00:38:00] but it's like, no, I mean, not everyone in your life, um, can have top priority.

So it's like, okay. You know, when, for example, I go back to the Chicago land area, there's so many people there that I love. There's so many people I want to see, there's friends I want to see, there's family I want to see, there's, you know, Obviously my immediate family is relatives and I like often am not there for super long, maybe three days or five days, seven days at most, I would say.

And it's just so tricky now, especially with kids to see everyone. And I feel horrible, but it's like, okay, no, I have to have like a priority list of like, okay, this is my, for lack of a better term, like my A list. This is, these are the main people I'm going to see, you know, mom. Dad, you know, now it's my mom's in a different place, but, um, I'm going to see dad.

I'm going to see, you know, my brother, Anthony, my sister Mia, and then some, like, these close friends for this reason or that reason. Um, and then maybe like some aunts and uncles and that's like as much as I could do, unfortunately. And there was a recent trip that we took to that area. And I, um, again, just really wanted to reach out to all these friends and plan all this stuff.

Like I really, if any of them are listening right now, like I wanted to see you all really badly, but I knew there was a [00:39:00] particular reason that we were out there. And so we kind of, Anchored onto that reason, um, there's a baptism actually that we were going out for. We anchored onto that reason and then like everything was kind of built upon that.

And then, um, anything that didn't fit just didn't fit, unfortunately. Um, and it's an unfortunate thing, but that was like really freeing and helpful. So having that kind of, not just list of experiences, which I think is really wise, I love that you have that, but also a priority of kind of the people that you're going to see and spend time with.

Danielle: Yeah. You said that so well, Joey, and I love how you said as well, like it's not to be mean, it's. It's just a set of expectations, realistically, and that's something that time is finite, right? We don't have, if you're there for a week, like, seven days is all you got, like, there's only so much you can do, because you still need to sleep, you still need to make sure, like, you're eating, you still need to make sure, like, you're drinking water, you still, like, all of the things to keep ourselves up, like, you still need to be doing during that time as well, right?

And I, I think that's something we forget when the holidays happen, that we forget. December only has 31 days in it. It doesn't get like a [00:40:00] bonus day. Um, and Thanksgiving is a great idea

Joey: though.

Danielle: Right. It would be so great to throw that in there. Um, but it is still finite. So it's okay to just tell people proactively, like.

I am so sorry. I'm not going to be able to see you like this season. Like, is there another time I could see you and just share your heart of like what feeling disappointed that you can't be there to see them or just be, I would say, just be honest and clear. Like clarity is kindness. Instead of trying to, I'm going to use the word contort yourself or feel like you have to please someone, or you have to get yourself into a bunch of different places at once.

It's okay to say that is something I cannot do this year. I still love you. I still care about you. And I'm still wishing you the best for the holidays. What can we do to stay connected during this season?

Joey: I love that. That's such a good template of like, I love like the kind of heartfelt apology affirming that they're important to you that you wish you could.

And then planning, like you had said earlier in the conversation to planning something separately that you can. Do to invest in the [00:41:00] friendship relationship. So that's awesome. I think all of those things are really, really good. And, and the, the thing, the only thing I'd add, cause it's just so common these days, it's just like, you know, avoiding the temptation to ghost people too.

Danielle: Yeah.

Joey: Yeah. Don't do that. It's just so rare. Like, and, and the only, I think the only motivation a lot of us need is like, think of how that feels when you're ghosted, it's horrible, you don't like that. And. I don't like that. And so it's like someone else wouldn't like that either. And so it's, um, it hurts far less to, like you said, be clear.

And maybe it stings a little bit of like, oh man, I really wanted to see that person as opposed to this like drawn out kind of painful, I don't know, mucky ghosting. That just is not a fun thing to go through. And, um, I'm curious kind of what were the results or the outcomes of, you know, using the guide you already alluded to some of them, but I'm curious, like, did it make things better?

Like. How did it help you when you were actually going through it? Not just like the before and the putting the tips into action. Like what came of it?

Danielle: Yeah. Um, what came of it for me is like one. I had clarity for [00:42:00] me when I was going into the holidays. So I, I knew what to expect, which is such a gift. And then, For me, whenever there is some clarity and a little bit of structure, it actually gave me space to really be present and just kind of have fun.

And I know that sounds so odd and a handful of people might be like, that, shouldn't you have fun all the time? But it's hard. It's hard during the holiday season sometimes when In my head, I'm planning the next place I'm going to. So when it was just all laid out, I felt like I got to be present with the family that I was with and with the friends that I was with.

And that was just such a gift. And from that, I felt more connected one with my family when I got to see them. And. To like with those friends that I was texting with and it was actually really fun to celebrate with them. So like when they would text and say like, Hey, how did that go? I'd be like, Oh, I'm really well.

And to get like a heart emoji or like a hands up emoji, you know, they're like, that's so great. I'm so happy for you. Like. That was so cool, you know, to realize like, wow, I got to, I got to celebrate and really just enjoy [00:43:00] and relish this season a lot more than I had in the past. And I'd even say too, Joey, it gave a little more, I know we've been talking like a lot about like autonomy versus surrender, like autonomy.

And then we were talking about structure versus surrender a little bit, but it. It gave some space to realize that like the chaos that I've felt from this in the past doesn't have to be the way I choose to move forward and that has actually been really kind of cool, you know, it's it's carried over into some other areas and so I would say it made it better for me for sure.

It's been a little bit of a play, so I don't want to say it like it was perfect, like right off the get go, but it's been really fun to kind of play with and have more conversations, um, with family and just, I think even for myself, learn how to be a little clearer and learn how to say it kindly and how to say it respectfully, but also at the same time, learn how to stand my ground when I need to stand my ground.

Which has been kind of cool.

Joey: No, that's good. I was going to say, we can certainly give you your money back cause we actually guarantee that the holidays will be flawless once you go through. No. And for the [00:44:00] record, it's completely free. It's completely free. So you will certainly get your money back. But, um, no, we've heard a lot of great things just, yeah, again, putting it into action is the key.

And that, that would be kind of the challenge as we get to the end of this conversation here is, um, yeah, it's. One thing to know these things, they're not complicated. It's not a thing to do them like we've talked about before. So that'll be the challenge. But before we get kind of the very end, I'm curious, you talked about kind of the benefits for you.

Did you see any benefits for maybe your parents or siblings or the other people around you? Because We're a little bit more proactive and went through this whole kind of system or process. You called it a system when we talked before. And I was like, that's true. It's a little bit of like a system to make the holidays less stressful, more enjoyable.

Danielle: Yeah, it worked really well. I would say, um, at least for my mom, it gave her a lot of structure, which was really nice. And it opened the door to have some conversations, um, about the holidays earlier. So that's been kind of fun to get to know her a little bit more as an adult of some of the, you know, things that she values during the holiday time.

And then I would say for [00:45:00] some of my siblings, it actually opened the door for us to kind of communicate a little more clearly on what does work during the holidays and what doesn't. So that's been, I would say, a really cool gift to kind of carve out time to just be siblings together and doesn't have to always be around like a family holiday.

So that's been kind of fun to enter into in an adult season. Yeah. And then I would even say too, for the. Some of the extended family that has been kind of also navigated, um, it's taken some pressure off for them to, when I, I wouldn't say I take the lead, but even just communicating or starting that conversation as something as simple as like, Hey, I'd love to see you guys.

Like they'll shoot back a text of, Oh my gosh, we'd love to see you too. When would work? Like, we know you're busy, what works best for you? And so that's actually been a really cool thing. I didn't realize they were waiting. Sometimes someone's just waiting for an invitation. Yeah, it opened the door to have some time together and that was a real gift.

Joey: I bet they really appreciate that. That's amazing. And just going back quickly to the thing you said about presence, I think that's so good. And I've experienced both sides of that where in [00:46:00] situations where, yeah, your mind's like in a million places cause you're trying to maybe please everyone or you're thinking about like, man, we have so much on the schedule to do, so many people to see, so many parties to go to or whatever.

And yeah, it can be so overwhelming that you just skip the present moment. You just are not there. Like literally like I don't really hear what people are saying and you're not like, present in the conversations. But on the flip side, like you said, if you kind of simplify things and put a little bit of a plan and set those expectations, communicate those expectations, that plan, and then, um, you could actually just live the moment and there's no need to Yeah.

Be in a million places. So I, I love that point. I, um, was curious, what would you tell someone maybe who's watching, listening right now and they're unsure about maybe getting the guide and starting to use. The tips, like put them into action. What would you say if they're a little bit, there's some hesitation there.

Danielle: Oh, great one. First I would say, take a deep breath. And I would, I would ask you to be a little curious about that hesitation. You know, if you're feeling a little, a little uncertain or a little bit of trepidation about [00:47:00] getting the guide. Just kind of ask yourself what, what is kind of blocking you from that.

I wouldn't stay there too long, but regardless, I would get it. The information is great. And if that's something that you still kind of work through in your head and your heart, that's okay. But I would really say, you know, be curious about what's holding you back from that. And if you have a friend that you can chat through with it, A journal's been a really great place for me to, again, let my thoughts come out of my head and onto paper and become concrete.

I would kind of process that a little bit because it may be holding you back where it may be something very real that you need to work through, but that's, that's what I would recommend. Be a little curious on it. Regardless, I would still, I would still grab it. It's good. It's good information. So if now's not the right time, you have it for when you need it.

And I'm, I'm hoping the time is right for you because it is, it is such a gift. And if you're feeling even the tiniest little nudge that you should, or like curiosity about it, grab it. It's, it's very helpful. And I feel really confident that something from it is going to bless you as you enter into the soliday season.

Joey: I love that. Even if it's just one [00:48:00] thing I would throw out there to everyone listening, it's like we have like five main tips and then some additional like resources that you can use to kind of put those tips into action. But even if you were to use like one tip and not any of the resources or maybe one of the resources and not really any of the tips, like that's okay, that it's there to serve you.

And so, you know, if you don't, you don't have to use it as like we built it, you can use it however is going to help you. So we just want to help you. We want to be there to support you guys. So yeah, I hope it's a blessing. Hope it's helpful. And, um, just wanted to give you the last word to first, thank you so much for coming on the show.

It's, uh, really great to talk with you. You're so articulate. Um, yeah, you're just a good woman. Thank you for being an advisor to resort as well. I'm really grateful to have you behind the scenes kind of help steer the ship and, um, you know, give your advice in certain scenarios. And so anyway, take care.

Really grateful for you, for everything, all the wisdom that you shared today and your vulnerability and, um, yeah, just grateful. So thank you. Um, but yeah, in closing, please. Yeah. Good.

Danielle: Yeah. I was going to say my pleasure. Thank you all. My [00:49:00] pleasure.

Joey: Amazing. And, um, yeah, just final word to you, any, any final advice or encouragement to anyone listening right now who maybe feels the weight of the holidays coming up, or maybe they're listening in the midst of them, um, yeah, any final encouragement or advice for all that.

Danielle: Um, enjoy the season it is, it is designed to be enjoyed and it's okay to have a little bit of fun with it as well. And just, again, remember there is hope, there is joy and there is peace in this season. Um, and if you don't have any of that, you can, um, borrow some from me. You can borrow some from others in your life as well.

Um, but that is something to lean into during the season, um, regardless of what your circumstances are.

Joey: Again, if you want the guide five tips to navigate the holidays in a broken family, just go to restored ministry. com slash holidays, or click the link in the show notes again, that's restored ministry.

com slash holidays, or click the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or [00:50:00] follow us on apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or. Wherever you're listening to this podcast, not only is it the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers that we have, the more the apps will actually suggest our show to people who are looking for help.

And it only takes a few seconds, but if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback. And that also helps people find the podcast. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we're here to help.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#108: It’s Not Your Job to Parent Your Parents | Ashton

If you’re from a broken family and you’ve struggled with OCD, relationships, overthinking, and filling a parent role for your siblings or parents, this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family and you've struggled with things like OCD, overthinking, relationships, or maybe even filling a parent role for your siblings or your parents, this episode is for you. In it, my guest Ashton shares how her parents divorce affected her and especially her relationship. She also shares what's helped her, what's helped her to heal and to move on in life and shares what can help you too.

So keep watching or listening.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panerelli. This is episode 108. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard tons of great feedback. Emily said this, she said, Truly healing five stars. This ministry has helped me through a lot. We all feel alone, yet we desire to find a community that understands the pain of being children of divorce. It doesn't define us, yet it is a part of our story. I cannot recommend this podcast enough.

Another listener said this, she said, I posted a single episode on Facebook today, and about two hours later, a lady posted that she listened to the podcast and finally, after 20 years since her parents divorce, just made an appointment for counseling. Bam. Again, we're so happy that you guys have found this podcast helpful and even healing.

To help us in return, if you've ever had an idea, a guess, a topic, or any other advice to make this podcast better, we'd love to hear from you. You can give us that advice by just filling out our podcast survey. In the survey, we ask questions like, how would you rate the podcast? You know, why do you listen?

Is this podcast too long, too short, or just right? Should we add video? Should we change the format of the show? And a lot of other questions that will guide you in giving your advice. And unlike The production of these podcasts episodes, it doesn't take five to 10 hours to answer the survey. It actually just takes five to 10 minutes to complete it.

And if you've benefited from the podcast, again, it's a great way to help us in return. And it'll also benefit you in two ways. The first way is it'll help us make the show even better for you. But also, if you fill out the survey by November 15th, you're going to be entered to win a 100 Amazon gift card.

To offer your advice, it's really easy. Just go to restoredministry. com slash survey, again, restoredministry, ministry of singular com slash survey. Just answer the questions on there, submit the form, and again, if you do that by the 15th, you'll be entered to win a 100 Amazon gift card. Again, go to restoredministry.

com slash survey, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Ashton. Ashton is a Catholic Christian woman who resides in Dallas, Fort Worth, Texas. She's passionate about how all things in life integrate with one another. She's worked as an intern for the Theology of the Body Institute and as a missionary for the Christian Renewal Center.

She wants to work in ministry and hopes to one day become a Theology of the Body coach, helping women to know the goodness of their bodies. She also has a heart for those of us who have divorced as part of our stories, and she hopes to accompany those who share. This wound, she's also very passionate about the mission of restored and wants to help many others have healthy relationships.

She also hopes one day to build a healthy marriage and family herself. Now, obviously in this episode, if you can tell we talk about God and faith, and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast.

And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. You're totally welcome. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this. Just listen with an open mind. I know that even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you'll still benefit a lot from this episode. And so with that, here's my conversation with Ashton.

Ashton, welcome on the show. It's so good to have you here.

you so much, Joey. I'm so grateful to be here. Thank you.

I've been looking forward to this, and we'll just dive right in as we usually do. How old were you when your parents separated and later got divorced?

Yeah, so I was, I wanna say nine, 10, maybe. I just remember being in the third grade, so somewhere around nine to 10 years old.

And was it kind of a one and done for you or did it drag out over years? I know that different people have different stories.

Yeah, I would say it was more of like a one and done type of divorce. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Totally makes sense. And to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, uh, what happened?

Yeah. So, um, a lot of the details are kind of vague, just 'cause I was so young, but I still do remember quite a bit. I, I just remember Um, yeah, my mom left my dad and, uh, it just was really chaotic from that point. She was like, I'm leaving you. And then just so much, yeah. Like kind of chaos and messiness and hard, um, unfolded from that just 'cause of Yeah, my dad being so surprised and hurt and, uh, so yeah.

Okay, that makes sense. And do you remember being in shock? Do you remember being surprised as well?

Yeah, I was just like confused on how to make sense of it all. Um, just being so young, just not really totally understanding what is divorce like. Yeah. Very,

very much in shock, like

No, that totally makes sense and I think that's, uh, such a common experience and, and that's actually a trauma response, as you probably will. Well know

that when something, you know, that overwhelms our ability to to cope, um, comes into our life, then yeah, we do kind of go through that trauma response.

One of the steps being . You know, being overwhelmed, being kind of in shock, kind of having the deer in the headlights, uh, look in our eyes even on, on a bodily level. So I'm curious how, you know, all of that, your, your parents, uh, divorce, everything that led up to it, but also everything that came from it.

How did that affect you over the years?

yeah, it definitely looked like a lot of us having to kind of step up and take on roles that, you know, weren't, aren't expected of Yeah. Children to take on. Um, For me, um, it definitely looked like, as looked like as the years kind of progressed with my parents' divorce and that unfolding, um, yeah, me taking on a very mature role, kind of playing mom, um, taking care of my siblings and yeah, just all of us kind of stepping up and kind of raising ourselves in ways just because

yeah, like that's unfortunately the reality of divorce is, you know, like with my dad, just having to like really s. Like, provide and take care of things financially, it was looked like. Yeah. Just him being gone a lot. And then with my mom not seeing us as much, so it just, it looked like us. Yeah. Really stepping up and taking on, very mature roles from a young age. I mean, at least for myself. Can't speak for all my siblings, but, but that's what it looked like for me. Um,

how many siblings again, and where do you fall in line?

Mm-hmm. . So I'm the third oldest. I have six sisters and one brother.

Okay. Nice. Okay. So big family. And

that makes sense if you're towards the top or towards the front that you would take on more of the parental,

uh, responsibility as well. And, and I experienced that too. Um, especially being number two in my family of six. We, um, yeah. Definitely we're thrown into that role of kind of raising our little siblings and, uh, you know, filling other roles that we really shouldn't have had to

fill as well.

So it is, it's a tough, it's a

difficult situation and you kind of feel like stuck in between two like really hard places where it's like, well, if you do kind of step into that role, it's not the healthiest thing. It's not really what it's meant to be. But if you don't, what happens to your siblings? Did you wrestle with that?

Oh, definitely, definitely. I was like, I, I mean, I have to take on this role, like my siblings need me. Like I had a lot of, I have a lot of younger siblings, so I was like, it, it just felt. You know, expected of me to take on that role, it only felt right, um, just given the circumstances. Um, yeah, and I, I know just to share too with like my parents' divorce, like it felt very much like I was playing monkey in the middle a lot with like the way that my parents' marriage broke down and just the messiness of it all. And so I'll say that was a challenge for me of like constantly having mom say one thing about dad, constantly having dad say things about mom. And so that was definitely tough and I'm sure others can relate to that and how difficult that really can be.

100% and no, there's so many difficult things you have to navigate that no one would ever think of. . Parents usually don't think of when they're considering a divorce.

Mm-hmm.

We wouldn't, as children can think that they would become a reality and then later in life we're just like, hit with them and we don't even often talk about them, but, but they're very real.

And one of the things I just wanna say to everyone listening who's maybe facing that same situation where you're kind of thrown into a role that you weren't meant to play, um, when it comes to your siblings in particular, um, I think there is . Something to be said in, in certain situations where you kind of do need to step into that role.

Um, but I would say if there's no other alternative, again, it shouldn't be you, but if there's no other alternative, keep in mind that it is a temporary thing. It's a season in your life. And that's what I had to remember too, because I think where it can become really unhealthy again, it's better the parents fill that role, that's what they're meant to do.

But if we need to at a dire necessity, . It's really unhealthy if we then continue for years and years and years and don't move forward in our own lives because we feel this perpetual obligation to our siblings. And what I've come to kind of wrestling this with, with this myself, is that moving on.

Again, assuming that you're not like putting your siblings in like on, on the street or something like that, that's not what I'm talking about. Like they need to be in a stable position. But you moving on, you growing, you hopefully thriving in life. You, um, going to where you know you're meant to be. I. Is gonna be a better example and actually be better for not only you but your siblings, uh, in the long run because they're gonna see you hopefully go on and build healthy relationships.

They're gonna see you hopefully build a good, beautiful marriage. And that probably in itself too, um, is gonna be one of the most inspiring and helpful things for them because as you know, Ashton, one of the things that people like us struggle with the most is our own romantic relationships. Like it's a real

struggle to even believe that love can last, that marriage can last because we saw it break apart and the marriage that we know best our parents.

And so when it's our turn, we're filled with all sorts of anxiety and fear, and we just feel lost. Like we don't know how to go about building. A marriage. And so if we can be that example to our siblings about how to move on, move forward in life in a healthy way, I think that's gonna do far more good than if you were constantly by their side, you know, raising them as as their parent.

Would you agree with that?

Oh. Mm-hmm. . Hundred percent agreed.

it's a tricky thing to go through though. And, uh, there, you know, I wish there were, that's just the principle that we have found, uh, helpful. But obviously that's not as like black and white in some situations. So that's where it's so helpful to have like mentors and guides in your life who can walk with you and help you apply the principles and make those decisions, um, in, in the unique kind of nuanced situations that, that you find yourself in.

So anything else I guess you would add about how you know your parents' divorce affected you?

so I would say that some of the ways that I coped that were I guess that, yeah, the ways that my parents divorce affected me, and I guess to an unhealthy extent, is that, yeah. With taking on that That very mature role at a young age, and kind of playing mom it, yeah, like it kind of affected, um, my relationship with my siblings a little bit 'cause I was constantly like frustrated about things needing to be clean.

And I would say that's probably falls into one of the unhealthy ways that I coped. And I mean, thankfully, I guess I could have coped in a lot unhealthier ways and not to shame anyone that has fallen into un, like there's a lot of unhealthy ways to cope, like drugs, alcohol, all that. Um, thankfully I didn't get into that, but. I guess an unhealthy way I coped was, I guess through cleaning and like,

if everything is clean, like everything's gonna be okay. And it kind of became this like obsession. And um, I would say that that was, you know, one could say, well, that's kind of a healthy way to cope, but to the extent that I went about it, it wasn't healthy.

It became so controlling of like, I can't just relax and be a kid because I have to make sure everything's clean and everything will be okay if everything's clean and I stay healthy. And so I would say that that was one of the. the. negative impacts of my parents' divorce on me is yeah, just developing this like extreme around like cleanliness and, I mean, thankfully it's gotten so much better as I've gotten older, um, and really entered into that healing journey.

But that was something that was super challenging of just, yeah, not being able to be like other kids and not be afraid of germs and just constantly feeling like everything has to be clean for everyone to be okay.

No, that totally makes sense. There's a few things going on there, I think, and I, 'cause I experienced some of that myself, like falling into O C D and I have, we've seen a trend a bit for people like us from broken families falling into that. I don't know if there's any official research, we haven't reviewed that yet, but,

um, it almost seems like we could be more likely to

Become obsessive compulsive.

And so, um, yeah, I think there, there's a few different things there. One, I know for me it was almost like a way of Yeah. Exerting control in a very chaotic, uncontrollable situation.

And so, yeah. You know, for me it was not necessarily like cleanliness, but more organization, just things being in there like.

Right place as opposed to like, you know, spraying everything down, making sure there weren't germs. And so, but I know other people who, yeah, they were really, really debilitated by like a fear of germs and things like that, um, that kind of attached itself to, you know, whatever they had been through before that in their family.

And to the point where, you know, these things get extreme. They can get really unhealthy where, you know, you're . Skin becomes raw or you know, it, it just gets to this really un unhealthy extent. So yeah, I can totally relate there. And, uh, yeah, there, there's so much more to say there, but, um, but that makes sense.

And, uh, when it came to your relationships, I'm curious, you know, uh, especially dating relationships and maybe relationships with men, like how did that all play out? How did you know what you came from in your family, the effects of your parents' divorce impact your relationships?

Mm-hmm. So I would say like when I was younger, um, like going into high school, it definitely looked like wanting to try to, um, fit in and like, you know, attract attention, um, through like the clothing that I wore and just like, yeah, just I think seeking attention in the wrong ways. And, um, so that was, I think, yeah, maybe a negative thing. Um, but when it came to dating, I, I really think there was a great fear around it. 'cause I've done very little dating, um, to this point. Um, but I would say that one of the struggles has been just, yeah, this fear of like, I, like how could, yeah, I just am so broken. Like how could I enter into a relationship and like, yeah, just be accepted in all of my, my mess.

And I mean, thanks, thank the Lord for restored. Um, because that's helped me so much to realize that yeah, like I can build like a healthy marriage one day and like I can have healthy relationships and just like really learning those practical tools and, um, skills and stuff to like grow in virtue and to, to really show up in a, and have a healthy relationship.

And, um, So, yeah, I'd say that there's just been, like in the dating that I've done just a lot of fear and overthinking and, uh, just, yeah, just not like, um, like it's just been a lot more challenging, and just, yeah, like a fear of even entering into it at all. Um, but yeah, on the flip side of that, I would say one of the positives has been, um, it's really over the years actually, uh, just Allowed me to, or I've just grown in this like desire to really understand like what is love. And so, my years of being single and not really dating, um, I. I've kind of, I would say like it's been this like research project, mission, whatever you wanna call it, of like really trying to understand what is love.

Like if I get married one day, like what am I actually saying yes to?

And um, and so it's been this beautiful journey Yeah. Of just really trying to understand how to love, what is love and um, I think that, um, yeah, that's probably one of the blessings of my parents' divorce is it's put me on this mission to really understand what love is and what is authentic love and how can I really love and, um, especially like showing up in a dating relationship.

How can I show up? Well, and um, actually just wanna share for any of the ladies that happen to listen to this, I went through a course called, Intentional summer, uh, intentional singer, single the intentional single, sorry, I'm stumbling over my words here. This previous summer. And, um, that was an incredible course, uh, for single, even dating women to really understand Yeah.

Like how to process your emotions, like how to, um, yeah, just how to show up well in dating and, uh, that was just a great, um, resource for me, a great course to go through.

Love that. Yeah, no, I, I can relate to so much what you said, not about being a single woman, but I can relate to a lot of the other stuff. So, um, yeah, just the fear that, you know, uh, just not believing that love and marriage actually lasted. I, I wrestled with all that same stuff and it was, um, it, it's a real struggle.

Like now looking back, it's like, okay, I was able to work through it, overcome it, and now, you know, be married for over five years and. Have, you know, to, uh, a baby. And so it's, yeah, it, it's amazing you can get there. Um, not that I've like made some summit, but like you can work through the fear, work through kind of the lack of like knowledge and lack of like, I don't know how to build a healthy relationship and get to what you ultimately desire, which is love.

Whatever form, you know, that might look like in, in your particular life. But it's, um, yeah, no, it's really beautiful that you were kind of set on that quest to figure out what is love. And interestingly, for everyone listening. That's what marriage researchers have actually found as a, an essential ingredient for a great marriage is just having what they call a realistic concept of love.

Uh, which in other words means like the knowing, the truth about love, knowing what it's not, and knowing what it is. Um, and if you do that, I. You're gonna have a much greater likelihood of having a really healthy, thriving, happy marriage. So it's beautiful. You've been on, on that quest. And when it comes to, um, overthinking, let's touch on that a little bit,

if you're willing to go deeper there, because I think so many of us deal with this.

I know I did, especially in my earliest relationships. It was just like, man, I, I remember Ashton, it was like constantly . Questioning, like, is this the right thing? Is this the right thing? Should I be with this girl? Should I, you know, um, am I meant to be with this girl? And then also every little maybe disagreement or anything that I perceived as being like, out of sync in the relationship, I would focus on so hard to the point where all our conversations became very heavy.

Like the con the whole relationship became very heavy. It wasn't very life-giving. It was kind of like this constant thing. Are we okay? Are we okay? And um, .

Again, thankfully been able, was able to like, work through that and get to a better spot. But it was like in the moment, man, that was, that was really a, a tough thing to go through and not, not healthy.

So just curious, kind of your, um, experience going through the, the whole questioning

like you mentioned.

Yeah. Thank you Joey, for sharing that. I definitely can relate. I feel like the overthinking and even making decisions has just felt so debilitating of like, why can I not just make a decision? Why do I have to overthink this so much? And it's definitely been, yeah, it definitely was a struggle and can still be at times.

And it, it's, it's very frustrating and I, I feel like, I feel like it I wonder if it's like, because there's not, we didn't have, maybe I, for me, maybe didn't have that like secure attachment developed fully with like my parents and the breakdown of their marriage and not having them to like model some things to me. Um, I don't wanna honor them, but like, I just, just being honest, like I feel like some things that. Yeah, I, I lacked from the divorce. Um, and so I wonder if that has anything to do with like, why can't I not make a decision and why am I overthinking so much? It's 'cause like, I, I don't have that security almost.

I, I feel like that's something I've struggled with is insecurity too. Like, just not being able to be confident in, in myself. Like that's actually something that, and I'm so thankful for mentors in my life, have really helped me. But making decisions has been something that has been challenging. And they've really affirmed that in on my journey of like, Hey, you're making decisions. Like this is huge. And I'm like, oh wow. This is huge. Like, I've always struggled with that. So

Good, good for you. I'm, I'm so glad to see that growth, and I think it's so hopeful that every, anyone listening right now who, who feels the same struggle, where they feel like they can't make decisions

or they overthink everything, so that, that's beautiful. That you, you can make ground, you can get to a better spot.

And, uh, no, I, I love what you're saying about security. I think it's so key. One of the things I've noticed in people who come from intact families, especially children, like when you're younger, I think it's even more apparent when we get older, we're better at hiding things, but.

Mm-hmm.

they almost feel like this freedom to fail.

They feel this freedom to like risk, they feel this freedom to try things and not work out.

And I think it's because they have this safety net of their family, uh, not in an unhealthy way necessarily, where they can do like any unhealthy thing and they'll be fine, but like ticking again, good risks, good challenges, and so,

O one way to think about, it's like rock climbing. It's like who's gonna be the more fearless climber? Typically the one who has a harness who is, you know, attached to a rope who if they do fall, it might hurt, but they're gonna be caught. Or someone who's like, Nope, no harness. You just have to go up this rock face.

by yourself , like, of course we're gonna be timid. Of course we're gonna be extra, extra careful. Of course we're gonna overthink things and not move as quickly. And so I think that's the reality. I think that's what happens with so many of us. And like you said, thankfully you can move beyond that. You can figure out how to, um, hopefully build a bit of a safety net around you

through relationships, through mentors.

Um, but then also, yeah, just learn, um, how to move in spite of where you are.

Yeah, absolutely.

Anything you'd add to, to any of that or any, any lessons you've learned, I guess, in terms of kind of getting unstuck, not overthinking as much and making good decisions, any principles that you're using to, to do that?

I think just really just having people that can, that believe in you, that like are rooting for you, like that has helped me so much. and being able to like kind of build that trust with myself and also my faith, like just, in my life really affirming me and. Guiding me and giving me tools, leading me to resources.

No, I love that. And what I hear you saying is that, and please correct me if I'm wrong, It built confidence. Having those mentors, having those people affirm you, give you resource, give you tools, resources and tools to use, built your confidence to where you were better able to kind of stand in your own feet and make those decisions yourselves.

Is, is that

right?

Mm-hmm.

And that's totally been the experience, uh, for me as well. So I think lots of good, good lessons there, but this is such a struggle for people like us who, who come from, uh, broken families. when it comes to, to coping and healing, you know, uh, . What, what has, what's helped you? What are maybe two or three things that have helped you cope in healthy ways and helped you, uh, to heal the most? 

so when I was younger, I was in, throughout middle school and high school. I was a part of a, a sport cross country and track, and I would say that that was Huge, um, helping me to really have just this outlet and like teammates to really like lean on, um, and just get through all of the, the hard things with, um, so that was very much a way that I coped was through my sport and just pouring myself into that. friendships. Um, we, people need people. We really need people and that has been so healing for me in a way that, yeah, I guess I've Coped is through just having people who can receive my heart. Um, and mentors, like I've said a couple times, just that accompaniment. Like we need people like we really do, and that's helped me cope so much. and music, I think music

and podcast have been tremendously helpful for me on the journey. Um, worship music in particular, I've, I've, yeah, it's really helped me through a lot of low times, just being able to put on a song where I can really. Let the tears flow and like just let myself feel, um, whatever needs to come up.

And I think that's huge. I think sometimes we have this temptation to like hold it all in. Um, or maybe that's just how we cope is to just not express it. But I think I've heard, I think Sister Mary May have said this, um, healing is feeling and so it's just so huge to like really let yourself feel. And that's where I've actually, I think I really experienced a lot of healing is in those moments where I can just cry out and just let myself be angry, let myself be sad. And um, yeah, that's just been something that's been very helpful for me is to just let yourself feel all of the emotions. I think that's something I kind of struggled with was like, oh, I shouldn't feel this way.

Like I need to quickly go back to being positive, but like, Just letting yourself feel whatever you need to feel. Um, of course, not trying to stay in the negative emotions for too long, but like you can hold both. Like you can be grateful for the blessings in your life, but also be, you know, just sad. I think just something I would love to share, um, is a story actually.

So whenever I came back from, I, I was a missionary for a year and when I came back I I decided not to go back to live with my dad, who I lived with all of my life. Um, and I decided to stay with my mom, but I remember feeling really frustrated because I knew that that was gonna cause some like tension and like just, I don't know, I was just like really frustrated and angry.

I'm like, why can I just have one house to come home to? Like, I'm so, like, I was, that was probably when I actually. I really let myself just grieve the divorce in a way that I hadn't for so many years of just like being so angry, crying out to God of like, why? Like why can't I just have one family with two parents like to embrace me when I come back from being gone for a whole year?

And um, so yeah, I just share that to just express that it's so important to just let yourself feel. Um, and I know, yeah, that was helpful for me. So just wanted to share that.

I love that. No, that's great advice. And I know, again, I can relate I, those like negative emotions were ones that I like, avoided, tried to avoid like the plague and, uh, in time. Yeah, I, I was able to, to grow when I just embraced him, like he said. And so for anyone out there who, . Maybe you're in that spot right now where you try to avoid feeling sadness.

You try to avoid feeling maybe anxiety or anger or whatever is negative in your mind, and maybe you're thinking that that's the goal, to, to feel some sort of like numbness or always to feel happy. Um, that's not the goal. That's not human actually. We have all the emotions for a reason. And, uh, , I have kind of a, an odd assignment for you if, if you're in that spot, We are struggling to kind of, you know, understand your emotions, especially dealing with those negative ones.

I'd actually invite you to watch the movie Inside Out, the Pixar movie Inside

Out. It's a great, it's a great movie. It's like that. There's so many, um, awesome lessons in there about kind of the purpose of our emotions, especially those quote unquote negative emotions. And so that's the assignment. I know it's on like Disney Plus and

If you can get it, I'm sure, uh, anywhere else, uh, for a few bucks. But I would, uh, yeah, I would challenge you to watch that and see kind of where that leads you. On that. I'm curious, um, you've mentioned to me separately, and you alluded to this earlier, that resort has been really helpful for you and I'm so honored, um, that we've had the chance to just guide you and to play a role.

Uh, you are the hero, you're the one who's making it happen. Uh, but we're, we're happy to, to be with them. One of those mentors that you mentioned. And so I'm curious, uh, how have we helped you? What, what has helped you from restore? 

Oh, Joey, I am so grateful for Restored I'm, I'm smiling ear to ear over here. 'cause Restored has been, Such a blessing in my life. I'm just so grateful that I came across restored. Like I, I feel like a walking billboard for it. I'm just like restored. It's just so great. Um, but yeah, it's, it's seriously helped me tremendously.

I actually came across it when I was a missionary and I, I was just like on a search to find another podcast, and then I came across this one and I was like, Wow. Like I felt so seen in listening to like each episode, like I just wanted to keep listening. I was like, oh my gosh, like this is actually being acknowledged, like this pain that I felt, this like loneliness, this just like all the struggles that come with like being like a child of divorce, like. It, it just felt like a, yeah, just I finally came across just something that actually gave language to what I was feeling. And, and it was, yeah, just Joey, like I, I felt so reverenced in each episode for like, the pain, um, that I experienced and, um, yeah, just so thankful for, for Restored, and I've also just learned a lot.

It's helped me so much to heal. Um, Because I learned a lot of practical things through the episode of like how to grow in virtue, how to have healthy relationships, which I so desire want to learn. And so there's just been so much learning and healing through restored and then also finding out about, um, life-giving wounds through one of the episodes, which really helped me to enter more on the healing journey.

And so I just, my heart is, goes out to restore it in your team. Like I am just so, so grateful for coming across this beautiful ministry. And I, yeah, just Could scream it from the rooftops. I'm so thankful for Restore It's helped me so much and will continue to, and I know it'll continue to help a lot of people, so,

No, we're honored. Thanks for the kind words, and,

um, thank, I'm so glad. It's been helpful. We do it for you and, um, yeah, no, it's beautiful to hear. So yeah,

thank you for saying all that. And,

of course.

no, you're, you're the ones who's making it happen though. You, you're the hero and. So well done there. Um, you already mentioned a bunch of this, so this might be a little redundant, but I'm just curious, um, yeah, if there have been any, like changes you've seen or made, um, in particular because you've been consuming the content or using our other resources.

You already mentioned a couple things, but I'm curious if there's anything else I.

definitely. I feel like it's given me actually like a lot of hope, um, that I can actually, you know, enter into the dating scene, for instance, like I I've, and, and also that like marriage can last, like I found myself really believing that more. cause I think that's, yeah, definitely a common struggle for us is like, can this last, like, do I even wanna get married?

And I know for me it's, it's been a desire on my heart for so long. And even with my parents' marriage breaking down, I'm like, I've always believed that, yeah, it's possible. But restored has really given me that confidence of like, yeah, this actually is possible. So it's given me A lot of hope, I would say is the big thing. Um, yeah. Just so many Yeah. Tools and,

Love that.

No, thank you for, for all that and kind of zooming out from your story too. I'm curious, you know, I know you would say you're still a work in progress. I know. I am too.

Hundred

percent.

Yeah. But like how is your life different generally, not just because of Restore, but in general that you've kind of embarked on this journey of like healing and growth and building virtue.

How have you seen your life change from maybe before to where you are now?

Yeah, absolutely. The healing journey is an ongoing journey. It's, it's lifelong, it's it's, yeah, it's an ongoing journey and I'm, it's, I'm here for it. It's worth it. It is so painful at times, but it's. it's. yeah, painful, messy, but beautiful and so glorious and so worth it. Um, and I would say that, yeah, just upon entering on the healing journey, um, I've noticed that I'm more free. I, I live a life of more freedom, um, and confidence. and yeah, just a, I just see differently than I did before. Um, and it's, it's, it's very beautiful. Um, Yeah. It's not to say it's all easy in rainbows and sun sunshines all the time, but entering on the healing journey has really allowed me to experience, yeah, freedom and just a lot of, yeah, just like compassion and, um, yeah, just there's so much I could say there, but those are some things that come to mind.

It's just, I feel a lot more free and hopeful.

Love

that. Beautiful. And, and you deserve that. You're worth it. And everyone listening is too. So

that's, uh, so good. And if your parents were listening right now, um, what would you want them to know? Like what, what would you say to them if they were listening?

Yeah. I would want them to know that they are so loved and I'm so thankful that God, um, gave me them as parents, um, wouldn't want any other parents and that, God, that God just forgives them and loves them and I forgive them and they are just, yeah, just gifts. My parents are such gifts and all of the. Brokenness. Um, from the divorce, there's still a lot of beautiful, like God makes the broken, beautiful, and, um, can take all of the broken pieces and create just this beautiful mosaic. And, They're g they're gifts and very grateful for everything, even the messiness of it all. That's why I am who I am today and, um, yeah.

I could tell you really love them, and I think that's always something that . people listening to this, especially parents who maybe are divorced, there's this fear that maybe we would be encouraging the children to rebel against their parents, to hate them, to

just feel this anger always perpetually.

Um, and, and that's not the case. In the end, we, you know, there might be some anger involved. There might be some boundaries that need to be in place. There might be some really difficult conversations. Um, but in the end, what we're working toward . Is having that good, healthy relationship with each other, because that is one of the keys to being happy, is having those good family relationships.

And so that's what we are trying to, to do here, but that can't be on, that can't be built on like a faulty foundation of just like kind of not talking about the painful and difficult things, or not acknowledging that there's been hurt, that there's been harm. No, you have to go there if you want, you know, a really strong, strong relationship.

Right. Yeah, I've heard it once of like, it's honor and honesty, right? We wanna be honest with our experience, but obviously honor them as well. Honor it, so,

Ashton, thank you so much for coming on the show. If people wanna reach out to you, uh, what's the best way to do that? I know that, um, you're in the restored community so they can

perhaps join that to, to contact you, but if there's any other way, um, feel free to mention that.

Yeah. Um, so I've not really been on social media too much as of late, but, um, my Instagram handle is Ashton dot Feld and Joey can put that in the show notes. If you wanna gimme a follow on there and maybe send me a message on there or, yeah, like Joey said, the, the, a great way to reach me really right now is through the, uh, community, um, restored community.

Love it. Thanks again for your time for coming on here. I want to give you the last word. What encouragement, what advice would you give to someone listening right now who, who feels broken? Who feels

stuck in life? Uh, largely because of the breakdown of their family and their parents' divorce? What encouragement advice would you give to them?

Hmm. Yeah. I just wanna reverence that, that pain and that, yeah. Just the place that you're in right now, that you find yourself. Um, 'cause that's real and it's hard and it's painful, um, sometimes. Um, and just, yeah, I wanna encourage you in whatever place you find yourself, I just want you to know that you're loved there, that you're seen, that you're known. And, uh, I want you to really hold onto hope, even if it feels like it's super far away. I get that. Um, but I, I want you to know that there is hope, That redemption is so real that Yeah. Like the Lord redeems and, um, the story doesn't end here. Um, there's just a beautiful Yeah. Life ahead of you, and I just want you to keep holding onto hope and, know that Yeah.

Just the Lord will Yeah. Redeem every single place. Um, where there's been wounds, where there's wounds, um, where there's been deprivation of love like the Lord. Does not intend to leave you deprived of love. Like he's gonna come in and just Yeah. Like redeem. Yeah, just, I just want you to know that redemption is so real and that you are just most loved and there is hope and healing takes time. Um, but it, it's so worth it. So keep going and know that I'm rooting for you. I'm here for you.

People like Ashton honestly inspire me. When you think of everything she's been through, all the dysfunction, all the trauma, it would have been a lot easier for her to just lay down and say like, no, you know, I'm done. Like I can't heal. I can't grow. I'm kind of stuck. She could have chosen to remain a victim, but she refused.

She said, no, no, I'm going to work on myself. I'm going to heal. I'm going to grow. I'm going to pursue the life and the relationships that are really long for. And I admire that so much. And I'm so glad that restored. was able to play a role as a guide and helping her on that journey. Now, if Restored has helped you, like I mentioned before, there's a way that you can help us in return.

Now, I'm not asking you to donate hundreds or thousands of dollars, and I'm not even asking you to donate hours and hours of your time, uh, as a volunteer. I'm just asking you to take five to 10 minutes to fill out our podcast survey. And through that survey, you can offer your advice on how you would make this podcast better.

And to do that, it's really simple. Just go to Restored Ministry. So, again, go to restoredministry. com slash survey, or you can just click on the link in the show notes. Just fill out the survey there, answer the questions, submit it, and then if you do that by the 15th of November, you'll automatically be entered to win a 100 Amazon gift card.

And so, again, go to restoredministry. com slash survey. Or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Seriously, if you want to, take 30 seconds now to just text them this episode or another episode.

And always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break that cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.