#058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns
Forgiving someone that wounded you is difficult. Not only is forgiveness difficult, it is often over simplified and misunderstood.
That’s why we interviewed an expert on forgiveness, who happens to be a child of divorce. In this practical episode, we address:
What exactly is forgiveness?
How to forgive through the four stages of forgiveness
Why forgiveness is good for you and unforgiveness is bad for you
How does compensation or reparation factor into forgiveness?
Practical advice to forgive someone who feels impossible to forgive
Buy Fr. John’s books: Lift Up Your Heart: A 10-Day Personal Retreat with St. Francis de Sales | Adore: A Guided Advent Journal for Prayer and Meditation
Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)
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Fr. John Burns
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TRANSCRIPT
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Forgiving someone who's hurt. You can be extremely difficult. It might be one of the most difficult things that any of us can do, but not only is forgiveness difficult. It's often oversimplified and misunderstood. That's why today I interviewed an expert on forgiveness who dedicated his doctoral research and dissertation on that very topic, healing through forgiveness.
He also happens to be a child of divorce, but this isn't just an academic interview. It's very practical as well. In this episode, we address the question, what exactly is forgiveness? We also talk about how to forgive someone using the four stages of forgiveness. We break down exactly how forgiveness is good for you and how unforgiveness.
Is bad for you. And we answered the question, how does compensation or reparation factor into forgiveness? We hit on some common myths about and barriers to forgiveness. And my guests offer some practical advice to taking steps or forgive someone you feel like it's just impossible to forgive really amazing stuff.
So people listening.
Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode. Eight. And you might have heard that my new book is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.
And the problem is this for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and the problems that stem from their. Breakdown. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle and feel alone in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more.
And I experienced these exact same problems and it really shouldn't be this way. My book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned.
Unwanted inadequate and even rejected is something wrong with me. What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so many more questions? The content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories.
And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents, divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, they'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future.
And if you wanna buy the book or get the first chapters free, just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular. Dot com slash books go there and just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is father John Burns. He's a priest for the archdiocese of Milwaukee and author of the bestselling book.
Lift up your heart a 10 day personal retreat with St. Francis DeSales. He was ordained in 2010. He has served as an associate pastor and pastor in Milwaukee, as well as an adjunct professor of moral theology at the sacred heart seminary in school. Of theology. He completed a doctorate in moral theology at the Pontifical university of holy cross in Rome in 2019, his doctoral research focused on the theology of healing through forgiveness.
Father burns speaks at conferences, preaches missions, and directs retreats. Throughout the country. He works extensively with the sisters of life and St. Mother Teresa's missionaries of charity and has given retreats conferences and spiritual direction for the sisters in Africa, Europe, and the United States.
Now quick disclaimer, obviously father John Burns is a Catholic Christian. He's a Catholic priest, but this interview, this conversation is not solely a religious conversation. In fact, the basis for so much of his research is actually based on secular science. And so if you don't believe in. You're totally welcome here.
In fact, I'm so happy that you're here. As I say, often, this show is not just for Christians. It's for anyone who comes from a broken family and anyone who loves or leads someone who comes from a broken family. And I know for a fact that you will benefit from this conversation, even if you were to take the God parts out of it.
So my challenge to you is to just listen with an open mind, and I know you're gonna benefit from this conversation with that. Let's dive into the, I.
Father, Johnny Burns. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate you taking the time. Yeah. Good to be with you. Joey's super grateful. I know you've done so much research and have given talks and forgiveness and topics related to it. So wanted to start with a basic question and that is what exactly is forgiveness.
We throw that term around, but I wanna really define what we mean when we say forgiveness. Yeah. I mean, that's like, that's one of the great questions of our day, I think, because whether you're a believer or a nonbeliever, as you look around in the world and in your own heart, like there's tons of stuff that's really broken.
And, uh, a lot of places where we're carrying a lot of bitterness and it seems like there's just no way forward. And I think a lot of people are realizing in a lot of different fronts that, that revenge isn't working, trying to get back what was taken away, isn't working. And there has to be another way.
Forgiveness is that other way? Like, uh, maybe at the highest level, we could just define forgiveness as a pathway, through all the bitterness and pain we carry from all that's been done to us, a pathway through this different from seeking vengeance, punishment and revenge. It's letting go of a debt. It has a lot of components that, that touch upon all the emotions that also touch upon our faith.
If we believe in the Lord, but forgiveness really ultimately is a gift. It's giving something to someone who doesn't deserve it in place. What would be a more maybe innate or native response to, to punish them or to hurt them instead? Absolutely. And there there's so many stories. Um, I, I think of the count of Monte Christo coming to mind how, you know, where, where you see these people seeking revenge, going after revenge and in the end, it always comes up short.
It doesn't give the fulfillment that maybe it appeared to give, but I think people who maybe feel that inclination towards revenge, They, uh, may look at forgiveness and say, uh, father, like that, that's just weakness. What would you say to someone who says that forgiveness is weakness and maybe the appropriate response would be punishing someone?
Yeah. I mean, that's essentially for guys, that's like one of our biggest struggles is the thought that if I forgive, I'm letting someone off the hook or I'm condoning what they did, I'm giving them permission to keep doing. And, uh, that makes good sense. I get where that comes from. I've had to deal with that myself in a number of spots, pondering that and, and really admitting that that actually is an, an impediment to authentic forgiveness or forgiveness from the heart in the end.
It's to my mind, it's harder. To, to restrain the impulse, to strike back, to think through what my response will be, whether it be an instantaneous response or something, that's a response. Something happened a long time ago to, uh, to pause, to be strong enough, to not have to just punch back right away and then decide what's the best thing to do.
And if I decide. To offer kindness in place of bitterness and rage. If I decide to offer blessing and place of curse, that's more demanding. Uh, Thomas Aquinas, when he talks about forgiveness, he says, well, mercy, in general, he says, mercy is not skipping justice or forgoing justice. It's giving something more than what justice demands.
Kind of use a base example. Like if, if you owe someone a hundred, um, dollars who says denari to give them a hundred more, doesn't deny justice. It goes beyond justice. Justice is to repay to give something to someone who doesn't deserve it's surpasses Justice's balance. And in fact, Really disassembles the heart of the recipient.
I mean, when you hurt someone, you expect them to lash back. When you, when you throw an insult at someone, you don't expect them to be kind. The response of forgiveness, the merciful response is like disarming and almost confusing. Sometimes when, when we see someone forgive and. That really opens up a pathway in the heart to like, uh, maybe there's a different narrative here.
Maybe there's a different way. That makes so much sense. And it, so basically what you're saying is it takes so much strength. It takes self-mastery in order to respond to the brokenness in alive to the hurt that other people have caused us. And it makes me think of, uh, a phrase that Victor Frankel wrote in man searched for meaning.
He said between stimulus and response, there is a space and that space is our power to choose our response. And our response lies our growth and our freedom. And we're gonna get into freedom, but I love that line. I think it's so beautiful. And it's essentially what I hear you saying is that space between stimulus responds becoming a master of that space and really controlling how we respond.
Um, it takes so much strength. That's not weakness. Yeah. You know, virtue, uh, is key. I know you've done a show in the past on virtue. We really define forgiveness as virtuous activity, which isn't easy is demanding, uh, but also makes us better. And virtue requires, uh, an element of deliberation for its perfection.
Like we need to think through, uh, the virtuous person is always is pondering. What's true. And what's good. And what's fitting and what's appropriate. All that's demanding, which is why forgiveness isn't easy, but also it's strong. It's stronger. And for the believer really to look at the cross of Jesus Christ, that's where we see ultimately the, the strength of forgiveness.
You know, the cross Christ has all the power in heaven on earth to, to sweep away those who have betrayed him, uh, have unjustly treated him, have brutally abused him and are murdering him. He's in the midst of being murdered on the cross. And instead of striking back retaliating, even just with words, but also with deeds, instead of all that he chooses forgiveness and that's much more demanding, but also, uh, again, more captivating and also, um, this assembling of the patterns of evil that are just riving around everybody's heart forgiveness, unlocks that it opens up a pathway that that is, is strong.
That's powerful. I wanna shift over to the practical steps of forgiveness. So what exactly is the process of forgiving someone? What does that look like? Yeah, so here's where I, I, uh, most of the work I've done for the last several years in forgiveness is relies upon a, a secular psychologist named Dr.
Robert Enright. He works at the university of Wisconsin and is kind of considered the guru. They call him the guru of forgiveness. I think time magazine called him that, and he basically developed a process for, for forgiveness in the therapeutic setting. Um, that leads people from anger and bitterness and resentment to forgiveness with all kinds of emotional release and positive physical, psychological benefits.
The reason I love his work is because it actually all adheres and coheres perfectly with the Christian framework with what's said in the scriptures with what's said in the, in the theological tradition, especially in Thomas Aquinas. So what he's doing is effective everywhere. It doesn't need to be used only by believers, but, but what he's doing out in the secular setting outside of the framework of faith can be brought into the framework of faith and, and actually expanded upon significantly with the help of prayer, grace, the guidance of the holy spirit, sacred scripture, all these things, but.
To start with kinda the secular and right. Uh, he just lays out these four stages and really the first phase has to be admitting that we're angry. . And when he, when I first read that one of his books, I was like, I don't know, is that really the first step to forgiveness admitting that I'm angry and I sort of rebelled against that idea.
I thought there must be other manifestations, but when you're honest about it, anger, and it may not be exactly angry. It might define it as like, um, a bitterness, a, a heavy sorrow. Vengefulness hatred, spite ranker. We have all these different words, but there's a manifesting emotion. That's towards someone else who's hurt us.
And, and the first step is just kind of looking at that and being really honest about the heart, about the intensity of what's going on in the heart and just kind of getting a sense for. What's going on and why is it going on? When was I hurt? Uh, what happened when I was hurt? What did I start to think about as I was hurt?
How am I thinking about that now? How do I carry that? How intense is the pain right now? Has that intensity changed over time? Really? Just to get a, a good and honest. Awareness of what's going on within that's the first step of kind of uncovering the emotions and tons more. I can say about that if we want to get into practicals.
Um, but then after that we have to, this is the step two. We just have to admit that we're not actually doing okay. That on our own. We're not really able to survive under this intense emotion. We've tried to live with our anger or with our resentment, which kind of is the result of heavy anger. And it's just not working.
We can't make it go away, but it's also frustrating and agitating enough that we realize it's a problem. So in that step, step two, it there's a volitional moment that a, a choice that, that resides the level of the will, where we. I'm done, trying to do it the way that I've done it, whatever it is. And however I've been trying to do it.
I'm done with the old patterns because they're not making anything better. The bitterness just spreads. I'm passing it on to other people. I'm miserable. I mean, saints as well as psychologists. Now show us that. Sitting in that unresolved emotion leads to anxiety, depression, um, addictive behavior, all kinds of even heart disease.
It can agitate the inflammation that cooperates with cancer spread. So intense emotion that's unresolved is, is really dangerous. And, and so the second step is once we understand the intense emotion is to. I'm not gonna keep doing what I've been doing. I'm gonna choose a different way and that way is forgiveness.
And so it's basically just making a choice to move out of seeking vengeance, revenge, repayment, punishment, and saying, I choose another way. And that's an act of the will. We're able to do that. Even if the emotions are tense, we have freedom of will. We are able to assert our wills and say, I choose another way.
Even if I am not excited about. My emotions are kind of running in the opposite direction. Maybe every direction I can still make an act of the will. I choose something different and that different way is forgiveness. So that's step two, step three then is kind of working on forgiveness and there's all kinds of elements to this piece that this is definitely the longest of the steps.
But what we do is we start to sort of ponder the situation as it happened, as we remember it and notice how we're remembering it. We start to ask questions about like, what was the person who hurt me? What was their life like at that time, what were they going through? What's their backstory. Um, and if I know them, typically, the people who have really hurt us are, are family members or friends.
And so we know a little bit of their backstory and the basic principle that we hear often in healing circles is that hurt people, hurt people. And so when people hurt us, The the pain usually can be traced back to love. Believe it or not, that might not seem immediately obvious, but it's either the deprivation of love that that was there or the withdrawal of love that was there, or the withholding of love that, that we needed to be there.
So this is often like parents who just weren't attentive. Uh didn't didn't come to us who didn't seek us out when we needed them. Didn't pursue our hearts. Didn't encourage us, strengthen us. Challenge us, love us when we fell. Um, there's a, there's an ache in the heart there that is a deprivation of love.
That leads us to the emotional intensity that we encountered in step one in step three, we're looking at like, okay, the person who withdrew love from me or deprived me of the love that I needed. What's their story. What was going on in their life? How did they experience love or how was love withdrawn from them?
So I'm seeking to understand. And even eventually be compassionate toward the people who have hurt me. Now, that's really painful obviously. And especially in like deeper traumas that doesn't come super quickly, but it's something we have to work at for the believer. This is where the holy spirit comes in as well, because often we can't see the backstory to another heart, but the Lord sees both hearts, the heart of the one who's hurt and the one who hurt.
And so the Lord can give us a certain sense of. His stance toward the other person, his stance of compassion for their own suffering and seeing that what they did, they did outta their own pain and outta their own brokenness, perhaps without a sense of how much it was gonna crush our hearts. And that softens a little bit that emotional intensity.
So we perceive the other, especially if we can, in the light of God, how God sees them, because they're as much in need of mercy as we are. And then we just begin saying, I forgive you, of course the words. And especially if we can invoke the name of Jesus there, that's really powerful. But then we kind of notice like, all right, when I say I forgive you, I don't feel it.
Uh, or maybe I've said shot up, forgive you a thousand times before. And it hasn't worked or nothing's come from that. What's going on underneath that. There's a lot more emotional layering that kind of has to be uncover. So we're seeking the truth in the third step, seeking to understand what actually happened, um, to assess maybe whether they were remembering it correctly and then the truth of, of where they were coming from as that happened.
And then, um, looking just eventually that the third step culminates in, in offering a gift to the person who heard us, and that could be very concrete, but it also just maybe to be practical and, and to caution everybody. Forgiveness does not have to be interactive immediately and maybe it never will be interactive.
So what I mean is in the case of, for example, uh, an abusive spouse or parent who is a danger to us currently, we don't need to rush back into a relationship that's going to further hurt us and maybe even put us at risk in order to forgive forgiveness. First happens in the. It's a release of all of that emotional intensity and a turning of the heart toward the other end blessing, as opposed to in curse, which is the previous stance that happens within first and foremost.
And so this work is unfolding within us. And then may eventually lead us to an encounter, an interaction even eventually to reconciliation, and maybe we'll come back to how important it's to distinguish forgiveness from reconciliation. So I say that because there needs to be some concrete culmination of an offering of a gift, but that doesn't need to be something that comes about through an interaction.
The gift of my heart, towards someone who hurt me might be the choice to. To offer prayer for them or offer sacrifice for them might be writing a note to them, even if it's a note that I never send, but a note in which I praise a couple of their gifts instead of focusing on, uh, how tremendously intense is the hatred I seem to have toward them, it might be going outta my way to do good deeds for them, whether they'll see them or not shifting my will basically toward Goodwill and away from ill.
And so the culmination there is where we can kind of check in on forgiveness over time. Like what's the gift I'm offering? Am I, is the gift getting better? Am I offering it more freely and more fully do I eventually want to be a blessing to this person? And when the answer to those questions starts to increase toward the good, I know that I'm, I'm forgiving a little bit more with each time.
And I mentioned that time and that process reality, cuz. Forgiveness doesn't happen quickly. And, uh, it also often has to be repeated many, many times because the virtues are acquired by practice and habituation forgiveness grows and is perfected with, with time with practice. So first three steps there, the last is really more reflective.
It's like looking back and DEC and discerning, like, okay, now that I chose this other way, What fruit is it bearing is my heart freer. What's that freedom like, and then how can I become an instrument of that freedom for other people? How can I recognize, especially that the evil that occurred has now become an actual avenue for my becoming a better person.
And this is a theological principle, especially that God is able to use evil to bring about good. That would not have been possible, had the evil not occurred. And again, the cross is our prime example. Fruit of the resurrection in life for all those who believe we actually delight in the cross, not for the evil itself, but for the fact that the father brought about some great, good through allowing his own son to suffer.
We've been allowed to suffer. It's not fair. However, when we persevere in goodness, and when we turn our minds and our hearts toward the truth, especially as believers, when we let grace and the holy spirit guide us here, we get better at life. We get freer, but also we become holier. We become saints and forgiveness actually is this pathway out of a tremendous darkness into the life of the light that we're called to, as those who seek to follow Christ.
So that's the fourth stage. We're just talking about embracing or discovering freedoms of forgivenesses freedom. Wow. There's so much there and it's beautiful. And the one word I would use to describe everything you just said is it's so hopeful because the alternative is just emptiness and despair and anger and bitterness and everything, you know, that you had mentioned before.
And so it's so beautiful to hear you kind of go through those steps again, which are based in scientific psychological clinical work, but also something that the church has found in maybe different language. So it all aligns, which is powerful, but it's so hopeful. It's so hopeful, which is beautiful. I would like to drill into them a little bit more if that's okay.
And I was curious, would you mind giving an example of maybe someone working through these steps with a particular harm? So. I can throw out an example, if you wanna use a different one, that's totally fine. So, uh, you know, the people listening right now come from broken families, the majority of them, and.
You know, maybe dad had an affair or mom was abusive or something like that. So any sort of situation like that I think would really help our audience to walk through these steps in a, um, more practical way. Not that what you said, wasn't practical. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I maybe to add a layer to what I said, a part of like what makes forgiveness work is, is just the acknowledgement first off, step one of our pain, but, but really the acknowledgement that.
I have a sort of reflex for revenge and, and basic sort of, um, evolutionary biologists, really point to the idea that if we don't have an instinct for revenge culture would not have survived through many of the war torn eras, like revenge is kind of built into us and, and we would see this even biblically of course, the I for an I principle of the old Testament, we just snap back and that's.
Sub rational that sort of occurs automatically. So most of the time when, when we've been hurt really badly, we're, we're stuck in this pursuit of revenge, this desire to avenge our, our, our hurts and, and that frames, uh, the way we approach people who have hurt us in ways, we often don't really realize, but we'll spend.
Years, sometimes decades waiting for that one conversation to finally get the words right. And tell 'em what they did or to, to punch them back. Like in my case, I there's a doctor who, um, gravely injured my father during surgery when I was a teenager and my dad was never the same. He was crippled paralyzed.
I had to couldn't work ever again. My parents ended up divorced and I spent like decades planning to meet this doctor and have my revenge praise, the Lord. It never happened. And we've got a bunch of really powerful stories in literature and in film showing us the fact that revenge actually never really satisfies.
Like if I had been able to, to punch that doctor, nothing really would've been put back, you know, Can't have my dad back the way that he was, the, the mistake can't be undone. Those things aren't going to be returned, but that revenge instinct is telling us that, that if we get back at them, everything will be okay again.
So we really need to think that through, but kind of before we partake of the forgiveness process and realize. Typically, what was done to us, can't really fully be undone. If something was taken away from us often, it, it can't be given back, but that's not despairing. Um, that's hopeful. What that is is that's letting go of a sort of instinctual response and choosing a more human response.
A survival response is prevention, forgiveness, more human responses like, well, what's the best way to become better at life. Um, to be more like Christ, to be more like an excellent man or. So in the case of like a parent who, um, has hurt us as kids, you know, a lot of the time I've, I've walked with people who like want their childhood back or want their family back.
And, and they won't put words to that, maybe that way, but they'll be like, you know, if only this wouldn't happened, then everything else would've been just fine. If dad wouldn't have left that mom wouldn't have had to deal with this. And my sister wouldn't have gone through that. And, and there's this pursuit, it's a childlike hope that, um, by trying to write things.
They can have back their childhood or they can have back what was taken away from 'em. And of course we know that's just not possible. We don't go back in time anyways, but, but often this is operat in our hearts. And so just needing to, to pause and be very respectful of our own hearts and be like, all right, look, this is, this is where I sit in this pain, but, but I'm also a old enough now to say, I need to think through another way here.
I need to let go of the pursuit of revenge, but I also need to be like, this is, this is just not working out. And I don't think even if I had that one conversation, I don't think I'd feel better because there's something more going on around the pain than just what they did. I've been sitting with it maybe for years.
I'm I'm bitter because I've been ruminating over what mom did or what dad said or didn't say. And so for them to say it or on say it, isn't gonna get rid of the rumination, isn't gonna get rid of the intensity. So again, that's all kind of around the first step. There is just acknowledging what all's going on and then choosing the different way we kind of covered that, but it would be like, you know, looking at.
Looking at your parent, let's say and saying for much of my life, I've wanted you to change what you did or, and this is just in your own mind and heart. You don't have to necessarily have this conversation, but looking at them and just deciding to be a, a mature person, if you're a grown up to be an adult, if you're, if you're a teenager to be like, I can, I can act like, um, someone of maturity here and step above my pain and be reasonable about what's the best thing to do here because I, for, and I what's the saying, right.
It makes the whole world go blind. I think it's Zach brown, but it's also Gandhi and it's all these other folks. It's, it's good. Saying. . And then in the understanding phase of the, the third phase, it's really, it's really testing our memories. Um, and so to maybe sidebar here, we have to get pretty used to remembering and, and assessing whether we're remembering well.
And then ideally even praying through our memories and asking like, okay, where's the intensity? Am I remembering correctly? Is there a better way to. And as I remember, where are the stops, the gaps, the skips, where do I notice that? Like, when I see that scene in my mind, my blood starts to boil. And when I see these things happen, my blood boils in the same way.
So maybe there's a connection. You know, like a lot of people who were in, in verbally abusive homes will, will trigger real easily. When someone starts to yell, it might have nothing to do with them, even it's background yelling, but it just causes this. Echo. And so learning to spot the echoes with our originating places of pain and tracing those roots back and saying, okay, in my memory, especially in this situation, trying to forgive, what, what did I start to believe about myself?
What did I start to believe about my mom or my dad or my siblings or my family? Where did certain untruths kind of coil around my heart and still make it hard to breathe because learning to remember, well, or even just notice in the story where there are GIS, uh, gaps or skips or, or dark places that's gonna equip us in the present moment to, to, to have a higher degree of self knowledge, the type of self knowledge that leads us to ultimately to self gift or to excellence.
We can't give ourselves away till we know what we're giving. And so searching our heart, searching our stories. Brings us into a more honest assessment of what's actually in there. And what's happened both around the wound we're confronting, but also just around the, the whole of our heart. And that kind of comes around this process of forgiveness to make it easier, to get concrete.
As we try to say, like, what is the charity? What is the kindness that could. Undo that which was done to me that makes me still so sorrowful, so angry, so resentful. So I'm not sure if I'm coming around with enough practicality there, I'm trying to kind of round out each of those steps. Yeah, no, that, that's fantastic.
And I think, uh, for so many people listening, they can relate so much to the example you gave of the, the situation with your dad that is so tragic and difficult to deal with. And it led to so many. So many other tragedies and the marriage of your parents and your own life. And so I can't imagine how difficult that's been to, to work through, but I think that this all makes so much sense and I love the encouragement you gave.
And, and I didn't think of this honestly, but before we did this interview, but it's so powerful how reflection is necessary to forgiveness. And I remember learning from, uh, a C. That neurobiologists have found that, uh, the act of reflecting on your story, just like you just said is actually healing on a neuro biological level.
It increases the neuro connectivity of our brain. So for everyone listening, if you think of your brain, like a big web it'll increase the connections, which in, in essence makes your brain healthier and it makes you better person, a healthier person, more whole person. And so, uh, in essence follow what you're saying is going through this process is very healing.
Which I know the people listening to the show. We, we want that we want that healing, which is amazing, connected to that. And you've mentioned it here or there. Why is this so good for you? Um, in a few words, why is forgiveness so good for you? Again, you've touched on this already, but I just wanna really hone in on it.
Unforgiveness is classically defined as a form of. It, it falls under the category of hatred and, and hatred never leads to anything. Good. Hatred is a vice and it's destructive it's consumptive. So even though we may not immediately think of the places where we have unforgiveness, as places of hate unforgiveness is a type of hatred.
It's where we're, we're throttling our enemy and demanding repayment. And again, especially sometimes an exorbitant repayment or a type of repayment that can't be had. So it's a kind of a futile posture in which we're very often stuck. I think it was Corey 10. Boom, who said to forgive is to, to let a prisoner free and to discover that the prisoner is me.
So, so it's liberating because we discover we're clenched up toward our enemies and self-defense posture, survival mechanism mode. And forgiveness is like a letting go of that, that posture of, of tension and, and a bound up heart putting down the weapons, you know, like not being just like on guard for the next encounter so we can go to battle.
And that all leads us to a certain lightness of heart. At ease of breathing. I mean like a lot of the people I've walked with in, in forgiveness will talk about being able to breathe again after they've forgiven and this living under a constriction prior to that, that they didn't even know about. So it's just liberating aside from increasing our excellence and making our, our lives more like Christ's life, because he's perfectly merciful.
It also frees us up from all kinds of bondage, emotional bondage that has, as you named even a neurological impact. The best way to think about healing is always integration or communion or union and wounding sin, uh, as division separation, fragmentation, our minds even are stories they're fragmented by these painful places is where we shut down or black things out or tried to skip over.
Healing reintegrates or reifies, reifies the, the, the narrative, our own story. Reifies our life into God's life. Reintegrates us into God. Reintegrates our own hearts ends the, the, the war within us thinking, you know, like St. Paul says, like, I. I do the things I do not want to do. And I do not do the things I want to do.
Healing just makes it easier to do the good things and avoid the evil things. And when we notice the other going on it's cuz there's some sin, not only our own, but that which has been inflicted upon us. So forgiveness is just this. I would argue essential and central pathway out of the, the death trap of our wounds.
We, we default to living there, but, but when we discover there's a way out, not only is it hopeful, but it's also totally liberating. And so it's gonna end the hatred. It's gonna end the binding force on our hearts. It's also gonna end all kinds of neurological complexity and physiological complexity. All of that, I would argue I'm a priest because forgiveness is actually what God called us to constantly through the scriptures and what Jesus Christ himself modeled on the cross.
As I pointed out before, this is the way of, of excellence. Reunites reifies and reintegrates that, which was put a under by all of the divisive force of sin wounds and brokenness. I wanna, I wanna shift to, uh, reparation and compensation. So you kind of touched on that a little bit there. Uh, and, and before, uh, I'm curious, how does reparation or compensation work with forgiveness?
A quick example, a few years ago, my wife was in a car accident, a woman. Hit her from behind at a stoplight, she was on her phone. Didn't hit her brake. Soon enough, this woman hit my wife, you know, caused her bunch of, uh, pain in her back in her neck, in her. And, uh, so in that scenario, I'm just curious, is it contrary to forgiveness to seek compensation?
For example, we ended up suing the insurance company because they weren't covering as much as they should have. And so maybe it's a different example because we're going after our company as opposed to an individual person. But I am curious, like how does that all work with when it comes to forgive?
Yeah. Yeah. So let's get philosophical for a second here. The, the injuries in injustice, right? Someone took something away that we needed or did something to us that was painful and not fair. We can articulate that though. It's, we're talking about love. What's owed to each other is love. That's the St. Paul letter of the Romans.
And so the deprivation of love is a form of injustice. And, and so justice is kind of at the foundation when, when injustice occurs. We, we become angry because anger leads us to want to put justice back in place. Anger is the, the, the emotion that actually protects the order of justice. So anger's really important.
Really good. Yeah. I argue that in the forgiveness process, the, the most integral and thorough way is that we treat. And restore justice wherever possible. So in the case of an injury, like you're naming where there was all kinds of medical need that followed upon the injury, the restoration of justice or restitution and reparation is gonna help carry the burden of those medical bills that are the result of the accident and injury that was, could have been avoided.
So justice. Fulfillment of justice disperses. A lot of the anger be precisely because anger is oriented toward the restoration of justice. What we just did very often discover is because we remember and we ruminate and we reflect it rarely stays pure anger. It becomes an EMBI type of anger, a vicious type of anger that we call resentment.
That's the stuff that even when justices restored doesn't go away. So prime example with your. Getting help on those medical bills might, um, have dispersed a tremendous burden. And technically speaking, there's an element of justice. That's restored there. However, your wife still agonizes at her own pain, uh, ruminates over what happened and is still upset about it.
And the reparation, the. Does not disperse a lot of that. That's because there's more going on than just a simple one to one desire that justice be restored because our hearts are complex. This is what happens to anybody who was hurt in their childhood and who spent a very, very long time wanting things to be fixed.
So let's say. Um, you're alienated from a parent and you haven't seen your dad in 20 years and you've spent 20 years weeping, bitter, angry, um, even violently angry at times, maybe stuck in addictions around it. If your dad just shows up and says, I wanna be back in your life. In technical terms, justice is restored.
Like in a way your dad should have been there. He wasn't, he came back, but there's a lot more stuff going on. So the pursuit of justice there and reparation might involve your dad talking through a lot of those things and apologizing, but also, um, offering to attempt to make it up. We just have to be very realistic that, that those reparations are not going to be the only thing that disperses the intense emotion, because in the end, the, the hardening hardening of a heart, um, and the demanding of, of a vengeance mindset or the slipping into a vengeance mindset, the only way out of that is either to punish.
And get things back or to be merciful. So if dad comes back in the equation or your wife, you know, receives a settlement that helps pay for the bills, there still needs to be a process of looking at the other person and noticing like, okay, even though there's some justice restored, what's happening in here and whatever residual intensity is unpleasant and, and typically resonates with something that we know is not good.
That's gonna be the place for forgiveness has to happen. So justice forgiveness, reparation, they come alongside each other. Most of the time in places of serious pain, justice is not gonna be the only thing. And reparation pertains to justice. There's gonna need to be a process of going beyond the dictates of justice and offering something back.
And that's mercy, that's kindness. That's charity, that's generosity. That's ultimately that's love where love wasn't deserved. That's what makes it such a stunningly beautiful witness. Yeah, absolutely. That makes so much sense. So basically what you're saying is it's a partial solution. Compensation is a partial solution, but there's so much more that needs to happen to free the heart of the person who is harmed.
Typically. Yeah. Especially when there's a lapse of time. I mean, if I steal something from you, that's yours and then I give it right back to you, your emotional response might be pretty quick. And the restoration of what was taken might very well disperse, all the emotion that's surrounded. Like why did he take that from me?
I needed that, or I thought I could trust him. But if that there's a delay there, if there's a time lapse, uh, you're gonna spend more time ruminating. And a lot of emotions are gonna build up that don't pertain justice, justice, and that's where forgiveness has to come into your own life. If you wanna be.
If you don't wanna have to carry these intense emotions longer than you should, and eventually get sick from them. I think there's a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding and myths about forgiveness. I wanna touch on those now and perhaps one of them. That just came to mind is forgiving someone who maybe doesn't even know how they've harmed us.
I find that a lot in this ministry, you know, again, we're working with young people who come from broken families, and a lot of times the parents are very oblivious to the harm that they cause their children, partly because the children just don't wanna speak up about it, to hurt their parents. So we kind of hold everything inside, but a lot of times the parents are just oblivious.
They have no idea. How deep of a wound, they cause by, you know, having an affair by getting divorced by abandoning the family. And so how do you deal with a person like that? And if you would touch on some of the other common myths about forgiveness. Yeah. That's, that's a huge, huge, uh, question. And I would even add like a, a more subtle, but maybe more omnipresent situation of.
Um, a lack of attention from parents that often will carry a lot of wounds. So like in birth orders, you know, if a sibling is born just after you, typically, your parents had to shift their attention to that child. And so there's a lot of attention that you had that you no longer have happens, especially for firstborns.
And that deprivation of attention causes a huge ache on the heart. Of course, multiply that out. Someone who's a, a work obsessive parent or a parent who, who left the home, it's gonna be that same pain exaggerated, but, but they, the parent. In some cases didn't even do something wrong. Like you're needing to attend to a child, they're doing what they have to do toward the other child, but you carry in your own heart, a, a certain pain at no longer having the attention that you once had.
There's gonna be a lot of work to be done there around how you, how you kind of square off with that. How you notice again, what's happening within your own heart, and then how you start that forgiveness process. So we get into a lot of technicals or just different scenarios. The first though I'd say is to remember that forgiveness happens within first and foremost.
And so if a parent doesn't know what they did or isn't able to own up to it, I mean, man, one of the most crippling things I encounter is people that, that come and say they've been waiting for like decades for an apology. And they're just hoping, you know, like hoping they'll come back, acknowledge what they did.
And offer that apology. It's just so very often, not in their ability, their wheelhouse either. They didn't recognize what they did or they're just not able to own up to it because I, people are broken and the people who have heard us, you know, whether they realize what they did or not, they may not have what it takes to, to come to us and apologize.
So we just, in places where we're still waiting on an apology, I think the great freedom of what we are learning about forgiveness is like, we're not bound. By another's repentance. We're not stuck waiting for them to realize what they did that will certainly help, you know, in the case of, of someone who hurt us, especially a parent, if they recognize what they did and they're able to repent of it, that's gonna by leaps and bounds lead us forward in the process, but we're not stuck waiting for that.
And the great hope of forgiveness is it starts now the second you're hearing this and realizing that there must be another way. With or without your parent or your family member, knowing what they did and with, or without them being able to own up to it, those are all helpful things. But this is to you in your own heart to decide, to let go of a, of kind of a intentionally or an emotionally bound up place.
And you're in charge of your own heart. They're not in charge of your heart. It would be nice for them to come back into your heart and to be able to make things right. But you're not stuck waiting for that. And, and often we just have to kind of make that admission at the beginning. I would love it. If they'd apologize, they may not.
So I'm gonna get started on moving towards freedom here. And now second major thing it's related is, is that distinction of reference before between forgiveness and reconciliation. They're often confused and we think they're the same thing. And so we think I couldn't start forgiving, maybe my parents dead, so I can't talk to 'em and so I can never receive their apology off of apology back.
Um, maybe they're dangerous. Like I said before, maybe they're just outta the picture unreachable for reconciliations. When two people come back together, And it entails when there's been an injustice between them. It entails a change in the heart or the will of both parties. So if the other party's UN repentant unable to repent, or we can't interact with them, we can't reconcile with them because they have to choose to come back into the relationship when it's reasonable, when it's safe.
So that's a more mature place to go forgiveness points toward reconciliation and, and proceeds it. But they're different things we can forgive even without reconciling. And that's a great liberation for people who are either afraid of the person who hurt them, or they don't know how to get back in touch with the person who hurt them or doesn't seem like it's possible.
Forgiveness is, is inside of reconciliation and is its own thing happens in the heart might lead to interaction. Like I said before, Ideally, it leads to reconciliation, but even if it doesn't, that doesn't limit forgiveness is, uh, your, your capacity to entering into forgiveness that liberates you from all of the intense emotion.
Those are a couple of practicals. Let me know if you want me to dig in on some more. I know I'm talking a lot. I love this stuff. No, you're, you're so good at it. I'm learning so much. You should see all the notes that I'm taking. great. And, uh, no, that, that makes so much sense. And I'm sure there's so many myths that we can go into, but that's, that's really helpful.
Connected to that. And you touched on this a little bit already. What are some of the most common barriers? Again, a lot of what you said I would, would classify as barriers as well, but are there any other barriers that you would add that prevent people from really forgiving someone who hurts them? Yeah.
I think one of the ones that I've encountered a lot, especially, and we touched upon this, but the, the, the questions of justice and that, that concern that if I forgive I'm ignoring justice, I'm skipping over. I'm letting them off the hook. But just an important reminder to people is that what forgiveness really is, is the choice that I will no longer be the arbiter of justice.
So in the place of injury, I'm trying to restore justice emotionally. I'm, I'm wound up toward fixing the situ. But I'm also really close to the situation. So I'm, it's not easy to be unbiased. And there's a reason that court systems are set up at the judge and the jury should be unbiased observers of the situation, cuz you need someone unbiased to actually dictate and determine what is justice, what would be restored?
Well, what is punishment in the place of injury? I'm kind of fulfilling the role of judge and juror, but also sufferer. And that's a little too much to bear. So forgiveness rather than skipping justice forgiveness entails the choice to leave justice to someone else. In the case that you named before Joey, there might be a civil authority.
Um, there might be a in case of criminal activity, there is there the police, but also the courts and the prison system in the case of, of in general, like our belief in the Lord, Nobody escapes the justice of God. And so even if what someone did to me is not a crime, they're not getting away from the ultimate judge.
And so I'm just choosing to, to place the responsibility of justice off of myself, onto someone else. Who's able to administer justice, um, with a greater degree of freedom, but also, um, equanimity. So that's a liberating reality, I think, just to help people see they're not stuck, uh, skipping over justice.
That's so helpful. Yeah. Oh, totally. Please. Yeah. That's so helpful. Uh, this may not be related exactly to what you're naming, but, uh, what I found. Yeah. We can relate it to the, the specific question, but I just wanna touch on self forgiveness for a second, or this idea of, of being, of being kind to ourselves really, because I do think a lack of this posture toward ourselves, it impedes our own forgiveness.
So when we hate ourselves, We are typically, uh, gonna struggle with being good to other people, including the work of forgiveness and being kind to people who don't deserve it. That's a high degree of virtue. If we hate ourselves, we don't think we're capable of very much. Self forgiveness is a debatable construct.
Technically forgiveness is between two parties because justice is interpersonal, but in metaphorical terms, I can be angry at myself. From a younger moment. I can be angry at my teenage self or my, my youth self. When I did something horrible. I can hate myself for the things that I've done and hold myself in a type of metaphorical debt that is anger toward myself or manifests just like anger.
So a really important key in all of this is actually looking within us and noticing like, am. Angry at myself, resentful toward myself. Do I experience shame a sense of self hatred, um, destructive behavior toward myself, harming myself suicidal thoughts. These all revolve around a type of self hatred. That is going to completely impede the healing process, but also the forgiveness process.
So, uh, as a way out that whole forgiveness process I named before we can actually apply that toward ourselves. And what we basically do is in the, in this, the position of the enemy or the person we're confronting or hurt us, we're just seeing our younger self from an episode or a period in life where we realize.
We did things that we wish we wouldn't have done that are still hurting us. And we can actually end up, uh, being kind to ourselves through knowing what really happened through knowing ourselves, letting that story be REW woven together and actually loving ourselves. Cut me off if I'm talking too long, but a key on self-love here.
There's this self love is this principle. That sounds so new agey and kind of like self-help book wishy washy, but it's a deeply philosophical principle and theological one as well. When Christ is teaching the commandment of love, love got above all else and love your neighbor. As you love yourself. So the ability to love our neighbors is really rests upon our ability to love ourselves.
Thomas Aquinas would develop this and say like the love with which we love a neighbor is the love with which we love ourselves. We want good for people first by discovering what it is to want good for ourselves. He even says the good know themselves truly, and must truly love themselves. And that's been a key for me, self knowledge to know myself truly helps me to love myself.
When I love myself, then I'm able to make a gift of myself. And that's the only thing that actually fulfills me when I'm stuck in my world. I'm, I'm trapped. I'm unhappy. I feel crippled when I can make a gift of myself. I discover who I really am and the gift of who I am to other people. I have to love myself before that's gonna work well.
And I have to know myself before. I can love myself. So when we feel our heart's kind of agitated, even as these forgiveness conversations rise up, a part of the process is looking in and saying aim to the heart and saying, maybe I have to address a type of forgiveness toward myself, or a type of kindness toward myself that.
I have not yet exercised. And that might be like, what's at the very core of healing, perhaps more than anything else as that starts to happen, we let go of the choke, hold on ourselves. And eventually it's easier to translate that posture of kindness toward other people because we're exercising it toward ourselves.
First and foremost, tons to say on self-love and self-forgiveness, but really I've just seen it to be such a place where we come outta shame. We come outta hiding. We come into the freedom that, that our life calls us to, especially in charity. So good. It makes me think of so many things. I remember, uh, a phrase I heard about unforgiveness, uh, you know, unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
I love that. And in this case, Applies to yourself. It's like doubly painful and it's just gonna hurt all around. And I've personally struggled with this too. Just having made mistakes in my past, especially when it comes to sexuality, unless it's been hard. Uh, it's been very hard to forgive myself, even though I've sought God's forgiveness to people.
I've heard their forgiveness. It's not an easy thing. And I think, I think you said that so well that often, maybe this is at the core of our inability to forgive other people and to truly heal because we're so busy, just punishing ourselves. And I see this a lot with people, you know, we work with who come from broken families in one way or another.
They they're often just punishing themselves. And it's so painful to watch and watch. And sometimes it's because of things they've done or sometimes their punishment, um, in, in a sort of strange way, which I know you'll understand, this is an attempt to punish someone else. And so there's a lot, there. It's some deep psychology, but.
I, I think that is so, so helpful. I'm glad you brought this up and we're just gonna have to have you back to talk about this whole idea of self love and self forgiveness, because, but what I've encountered with a lot of people, especially in the, the Christian world is that, uh, self-love seems selfish and that's not what you're saying.
You're saying no, that there's actually an appropriate ordered way to love yourself. And, uh, and I think that's so important. I wish we had more time to go into all these things. Uh, I do wanna get your advice for someone who's really struggl. To forgive someone, what what's like one thing that they can do to, to move toward forgiving someone who's hurt them.
They just haven't been able to, to forgive. Yeah. So the one great key there is just to start small, like when we're really you're naming someone who's like really struggling with pain towards someone, don't start with the big wounds and don't start with the biggest people as it were. Who hurt you? The people who hurt you the most.
That's gonna, that's kind of a recipe for frustration and even failure. If forgiveness really is virtuous activity, and it really is a set of habits that we learn and we get better at over time. We gotta start with the small things. First learn those habits. It's just like why we got training wheels on our bikes, why we learn to swim and the shallow end, we just have to kind of start small practice, learn how to go through these steps.
Learn what happens in our heart as we go through them. And then adjust our posture toward the person in those bigger places. So if there's one person you're thinking about through this whole show who just really, really hurts, you maybe make a list of all the ways they hurt you, cuz you're gonna have to confront each of those ways.
Cuz each of them is, is provoking an emotional response and then start with the smallest one, start with the one that hurts the least and just practice moving out of ill will into Goodwill and offering some sort of gift and repeat that a few times. Get your heart kind of used to it and then move up to the next one.
And the next one and the next one until eventually. Found yourself letting go of some of that bitterness in each of the ways that they hurt you. Uh, of course, as well for the Christian, this is the activity of God in us. Forgiveness is, is grace is, is, is something that God helps to achieve within us. And so to pray first that God would go and forgive our enemies, that he would soften their hearts and that he would give us, uh, a heart like his, toward them.
He who sees them in mercy and, and not in condemnation and wants them well, wants them saved. To believe that that the Lord has done this first and he'll lead us to it and he'll do it within us. And he us how to do it ever more perfectly. Father John, you are the man. If people wanna follow you and buy your books, tell us a little bit about, uh, what you've written and how they can get those books and follow you.
Yeah. A couple books from Ava, Maria, press one is a personal retreat just on getting serious about the Lord. Another is a guide to advent that's coming out or just came out right now. It's a daily reflection journal. My dissertation on forgiveness. Isn't published, it's published, but not publicly published.
I'm working on just finding someone to, to brush it up for Amazon. Self-publishing just so you can buy it, um, at an easy form and I'm working on another book on forgiveness on this, a simpler book. Just because it's, it's such an important theme and we've got a lot of resources now, but that's not done yet.
Um, social media app, father, John Burns father spelled out I'm on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook. I'm kind of a passive user of social media on there, but I, I don't do too much, but you can find me and you can reach me that way. You just gotta be patient, uh, in my response time, cuz I'm, I'm really slow at getting back to people.
It's place. I need to ask forgiveness all the time. Both of us. Thanks for saying that. I wanna give you the last word here first. Thank you so much for coming on. Everything you said has been so helpful and just, I think so many people are gonna be chewing on this and re-listening to this episode. So thank you so much for your time, for your wisdom for, uh, yeah.
Your expertise for all the years, you've put into this and condensing it down into something simple that we can learn and act on, which is the most important thing. So, uh, kind of stepping back from forgiveness, I wanted to ask you. Uh, what words of encouragement would you give to someone who feels so broken, who feels stuck in life because of the breakdown of their parents' marriage and their family?
What encouragement advice would you give? Yeah. I mean, just take hard and take hope is the word that, um, that comes as you're just even asking that Joey, like, I, I love being a priest and I love the work that I get to do with people and, and watching the fact that every time God comes to encounter us, We get better.
Like he lifts us up out of our darkness. The beginning of John's gospel, the darkness just can't overcome the light. And, and so just to, to, to know of the light, to believe in the light and to look to the light and notice that where we feel stuck and trapped, we're typically stuck kind of obsessing over the pain, the darkness, and we're staring kind of inward and stuck, um, homo in kuvaas man turned in upon himself.
The way of the believer, the way of, of the excellent man from Aristotle's categories. Is of, of self gift of looking to the horizon and of hope. And so just take hope. Uh, the story does not end in darkness does not end in our pain. It ends in, in the triumph of the good, because the good is stronger than the evil that was there.
First, the light is strong, the darkness and, and it will overcome. So take hope, look to the horizon, notice where you're stuck, staring inward break outta that, uh, begin, um, to, to beg for the gift of hope, especially from our Lord. And then just trust that you're listening to this and whatever stirred in your heart is moving in your heart for a reason.
And that is the beginning of the pathway forward. I come back to that place and set a foot on it. It's it's hard work. Uh, believe me, I I've seen so many people terrified at the beginning of the process of forgiveness, but the hard work is worth it. It's so worth. We become better. We become freer. We come to life.
So whatever's moved in your heart in, in this time. We've shared thanks for coming alongside and, and take heart in the fact that the movement within you is, is the first invitation into this new way, a movement upward outta the darkness. And, and it's a beautiful way. I promise.
So good. There was so much good content there. Honestly, I'm gonna have to go back and listen to the interview myself, and I'm the one who conducted it. So I invite you to do the same, especially if that was a lot to, to chew on. But one question you can think about to just help you make this a little bit more practical in your life is who do you need to forgive?
Who do you need to forgive? Maybe just identify one person, maybe that's your parents, maybe it's someone else who, who really hurt you. And then a second question is this, what's the smallest step that you can take this week to begin that process that we discussed. What's the smallest step and then just do it.
Forgiveness doesn't happen overnight. It happens through baby steps taken consistently over time. And so get after it, start doing it again. A reminder that my new book, it's not your fault can be purchased on Amazon. You can access that through restored ministry. Dot com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes.
The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 58. Hey, thank you so much for listening. We do this for you, and if this has been useful, feel free to subscribe, but more importantly, if you know someone who's really struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone.
We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.
