“My Mom Overshares and Relies on Me Too Much. What Do I Do?” | Live Call In: #166
In this episode, I’ll mentor three people LIVE through real-life situations that people like us from broken families face:
A separated mom with adult kids asks: How do I support my kids through the fallout without pushing them, guilt-tripping them, or putting them in the middle?
A man, wounded by his parents’ divorce and his struggles with alcoholism, asks: Is it actually worth digging up the past to heal, and can writing really help?
A young woman, whose parents’ divorce has dragged on for five years, has moved back in with her mom, who overshares a lot. She asks: How do I set boundaries with my mom and navigate my relationship with my dad?
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Episode about Covert Sexual Abuse
#058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns
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#130: An Exercise to Heal | Dr. Peter Malinoski (Internal family systems)
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
Joey (00:00)
Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. In this episode, I'll mentor three people live right here on the show. We're hitting real life situations that people like us who come from broken families face all the time. Like a mom with adult kids asks, how do I sup-
my kids through the fall without pressuring them, pushing them, guilt tripping them, or putting them in the middle. A man wounded by his parents' divorce and his struggles with alcoholism asks, is it actually worth digging up the past in order to heal, and can writing really help? And finally, a young woman whose parents' divorce has actually dragged on for five years, if you can believe that, has moved back in with her mom, but her mom over-shares a lot and relies on her in an unhealthy way, and so she asks,
How do I set healthy boundaries with my mom and navigate my relationship with my dad? Again, these are real raw situations that we'll discuss right here on the show. Quickly, before we jump into the first call, if you'd like to come on the show and ask a question, I'll tell you how it works at the end. But in the meantime, feel free to go to restoredministry.com slash ask or click the link in the show notes to submit your question. With that, here's our first question.
Hey, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you here.
Caller (01:21)
Hi Joey, thanks for having me. ⁓ I have a question because I am one of the separated parents and just how to kind of be the parent to adult children who have gone through the separation, obviously with my spouse and I. A couple of them have sought counseling, but there's two who are completely obstinate right now. But ways to just be able to be with them through the process because as you know for sure, you know, as you go through life and different milestones,
things come up. just how can I be a supportive parent for them is like kind of like my question.
Joey (01:56)
I
just want to say I think you're way ahead of a lot of parents just by asking the question itself, which is really beautiful. I was curious like how old are they and maybe what have you tried so far?
Caller (02:05)
The oldest is 30, so I have four between the ages of 29. He'd yell at me if I said he was 30. So my own healing is one thing. I'm a huge advocate of that. My own therapy coaching is great and can be great. And then just trying to not put them in the middle and that can be tricky. But for me, especially not.
projecting things on to their dad from the past and especially for my boys I have both boys and girls I've got two and two. When I see the ways that they are like their dad to not judge that and put it on them.
Joey (02:42)
Yeah, I hear you. Okay. That makes sense. So young adults and some have sought help. Some haven't sought help. I think the first thing, which I think you're far ahead of this, but maybe for everyone listening, they need to hear is just acknowledgement is just like saying, okay, this bad thing happened. This hard, hard thing happened. This harmful thing happened. And I really wish it wasn't that way. I'm sorry that it happened. I, you know, take ownership of my piece of the pie contribute to. I think that goes a really long way because so often what I hear from young people is like, there's never that conversation.
And so again, I think you're far ahead of this. assume you've probably had these conversations. If not, that would be an encouragement. But I think so often that it, there's a few different things that often happen. One is it just never talked about, cause it's a hard thing to talk about. Or two, sometimes again, this is not you, but sometimes parents, think maybe have so much shame and guilt around these sorts of things that they could maybe just have this intuition that, you know what, I just don't want to.
go there i'm just gonna let them be they seem like they're okay i guess from the outside and so it's never even talked about but i do i really think there's a lot of power in broaching the topic and saying like hey i'm so sorry for this i'm sorry that it went down this way now even if it was the case where it was necessary
Right? Because sometimes people misunderstand me when I talk about divorce saying that, you know, saying divorce is never necessary. I think there are situations where it is, especially in a high conflict situation where there's abuse, maybe there's unrepented or ongoing infidelity or, you know, other situations that would kind of fit that high conflict category. Uh, it can be the lesser of two really bad options to separate. And the hope always is to heal things and bring the family back together. But of course that's, we live in an imperfect world and that's not always possible. So, so I do. So just to kind of a point of clarity for maybe everyone listening.
But yeah, but I think the acknowledgement is there again, even in those situations where it might be necessary, you could still say, hey, this is still a hard thing to go through and I want, you know, the best for you. And, you know, I could get into some tactics maybe that you can use to get them help. But I think that alone will often maybe take down some walls and open up the ability for conversation. Have you tried something like that and what are your thoughts on that?
Caller (04:38)
I try to be really good about that, but as you were talking through it, two things came to mind. One, my daughter just got married and a lot of stuff came up for me. So was really...
that was difficult because she did one of the destination type things and it was just a small group of us so I didn't have support like from my extended family that I normally would have in a traditional way that my generation got married. So I think I handled it okay but I haven't again specifically acknowledged that with her so perhaps I should go back and like really bring it up and if she's ready to talk about it.
she may just be like, mom, it was fine. I don't know. But again, I haven't done it. And then my son came to me last night and was talking about a friend who is signing his divorce papers soon and how he was like telling him, it's okay. It's okay. But I, just, I wanted to be frank with him and that
I did not take this decision lightly and I'm not trying to judge his friend. I'm so it's, that's a really difficult place too, when it seemed like he was coming to me for advice and how to support his friend. And I didn't really know the whole situation, but I don't want to advocate for divorce when it's not one of those cases where, you know, cause I know how bad it is for families. So those were tricky things to navigate.
Joey (05:53)
Okay, I hear you. And one of the things with your daughter, at least that I would recommend is I say this a lot, but I think sometimes those face to face conversations, especially if maybe you're not at that point in your relationship where you have these hard talks can sometimes be a little bit intense.
And so there's kind of two ways to go about it. One, I think is broaching the topic and just saying, Hey, you know, I know this, this has been really hard for me. And I noticed it's been hard for you guys too, or can imagine it's been hard for you. I've heard from other people, you can blame me. I've heard from other people who talk about this stuff and say, it can be really challenging, even if it's not apparent on the surface. And I just want you to know, if you ever want to talk about it, like I'm here and I just wanted to say, you know, I'm sorry for everything we've been through. I, just, I acknowledge and I see your pain.
I think that can be a good option if you wanna kind of like throw the lure out there a little bit and see if they, you know, take a bite. And if not, then another option is to maybe write a letter, which again, perhaps you've done some of this stuff, but I think the letter is really powerful. I love letters personally because there's a lot you can say and then they can receive it in a way that's not so maybe overwhelming intense. And so those are kind of the two routes. But I think so often after the acknowledgement,
someone have to take a case by case basis with young people because not everyone feels the same about their parents divorce. Not everyone's at a point where maybe they're ready to deal with it or even maybe they need to deal with it. Like the truth is when we talk about the studies and the different stories, there is a trend. There are typical things that happen, struggles that come about when your parents get divorced, but those are averages. So there's people who are far worse and far worse condition, but there was also people who are in better condition. So there's a lot of variables.
play. And so I think it's important not to just like take this blanket approach. So that said, one of the things that comes to mind is Dr. Judith Wallerstein, you might've heard me talk about her, who did a bunch of research on children of divorce at UC Berkeley for 25 years. She studied children of divorce and she found that actually the full effects from your parents' divorce don't usually materialize. don't, you know, maybe struggle as much as when you're an adult. So like when you're younger and your teens as a child, then you might be in a situation
where you you you do struggle in some ways there are some negative effects not lessening those in any way those are very real but then once you're an adult or on college age in your 20s maybe even your 30s a lot of those struggles will come about that was her observation and so on that point what i've seen as i sometimes people think that they're fine think that things are great they they're going through life and things are
relatively fine and then they kind of hit a wall. And there was one woman I remember interviewing on the podcast who, know, things she did great in school, she had a successful career, and then there things like her mid to late twenties, she's kind of had this breakdown. And so sometimes it kind of, hate saying this, but sometimes it's like only in those moments where we have the opening to go in and say, hey, here's some support, here's some help that you can get, I'm here to love you through this, because we can't force someone to do something. But I think the acknowledgement, you know, offering
to talk about it, maybe bringing up some of these things can perhaps bring a level of awareness to them like, yeah, you know, this bad habit I've been dealing with or these difficult emotions I feel often, whether it's anxiety, depression or other things, or these relationship struggles, these failed relationships, like perhaps there's some trauma, there are some wounds that are causing those things that I'm dealing with every day. And so maybe if I were to give that some attention and try to heal, get therapy, I can lessen those bad symptoms that I'm experiencing.
It's a tricky approach. Like we can't force people, but I think that the two final things I would say about that is like when we're trying to help someone maybe seek help, I think the two things that are the most convincing are stories and studies. Stories because they carry the emotional punch and then studies because they carry like the data validation where it's like, it's not just an anecdotal case. And so a lot of what we do tries to focus on both of those things. But yeah, I know I threw a lot kind of out there, but do any of those ideas resonate? Yes.
Caller (09:48)
a lot of it does, so just kind of patience, being open, waiting on them, like opening, giving the opening, not forcing things, or doing them out of anxiety, and then I guess coming to terms with the fact that maybe they have to hit quote unquote rock bottom, even if that's a fear, and I'd love to help them not have to have that happen, but perhaps that's just the way that they're gonna have to have it.
Joey (10:14)
Totally, and I really hope it's not and then not everyone does but I mean even in my life thinking back to different struggles I've had it's like sometimes that's what it takes to move You know to get the help that you need and so I hope that's not the case and you know know not everyone listening is a religious but of course prayer and I know that kind of goes without saying with you is like the most important thing because God can change people in ways that we never could
But yeah, I think that approach of just kind of leaving the door open if they want to talk about it if they don't, then that's okay. It is really wise and then being there to kind of help them if they fall, not that we're gonna enable them or do everything for them, but being there to help them I think is good. The other thing I would say, I know this might sound insensitive to some people, but I mean it with so much love. It's like sometimes mom or dad are not the right person to offer the help. And I know you get that, especially with your personal background, but it's... ⁓
you know, sometimes it just takes a third party who steps in to help them. And so sometimes what I would recommend not to kind of toot our own horn here, but is, you know, maybe saying, Hey, I heard about this nonprofit. I met this guy, whatever. And you know, I heard this podcast. I thought it might be helpful. I just wanted to pass it off. No pressure to listen. Just thought it might be useful. Something like that. That's perhaps one way to go about it. That way it's a little bit, you know, it's a third party. It's not something that you're pushing. It's something that they might, you know, come to on their own.
One of our podcasts, the podcast episodes I think are the most popular by the way. Every year we do like a podcast episode with the highlights from the year, like our top podcast episodes. And those are the ones, we'll link to those in the show notes guys, but those are the ones that typically are the most shareable, the most popular. It gives people a good sampler of what this is all about. So that would probably be the one that I would recommend. So it's free, it's not something you need to buy. It might give them a little bit of help and that might ⁓ make them wanna go a little bit deeper.
Caller (11:59)
shared your podcast with them. I don't know if they've listened or not, but I have tried that a couple times already. That's right. Like force it to come on. I don't know what happened.
Joey (12:05)
We've seen it happen to the phone.
No, no, that makes sense. Yes.
Caller (12:13)
Yeah, thank you. I like the letter idea too. If I could circle back around to that, I know that was a while back in your suggestions, but there's something, yeah, you know, the process of writing it for myself. I think there's also something very special about taking the time to write it out in your own handwriting, in your own words, and you know, having that moment's block of time to process yourself to help them have it in front of them and maybe even keep it if they need to, or burn it if they need to, like, you know, whatever. It works for them.
Joey (12:43)
Yeah, I know I love that. I think that it can be really meaningful and it just gives them the space to kind of process it like you said, whatever they're feeling through it all. For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault, guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face.
cope in healthy ways instead of falling into bad habits, improve their relationship with their parents, navigate the holidays and other life events, and build healthy relationships and so much more. One Amazon review said this, this book is packed full of really practical help. If you come from a broken family, or even if you don't, but you love someone that does, this book is so helpful. I can't recommend this enough.
By the way, it's a quick read and it doesn't need to be read cover to cover. Since it's in question and answer format, you can just read one of the questions and one of the answers. And so if you want to join the thousands of people who've gotten a copy, just go to restoredministry.com slash books to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restoredministry.com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes. Hey man, welcome to the show. It's good to have you here. What's going on? Well, I grew up in a walked away when I was 20, it was through Devore.
Caller (13:58)
Protestant
that occurred about an affair.
Joey (14:04)
was that
had been happening behind the scenes. didn't know about it at the time. Only have I come to understand that we were spending time at this person's house, who I thought was just because my sister and friends, but that turns out
Caller (14:09)
Recently, what was happening that
It was and the oldest daughter were turned up. It
wasn't the case when it got to be about
Joey (14:23)
17. I started acting out and we're spending more and more time arguing in the home not really sure what's going on. We stopped going
Caller (14:30)
the
church together so it's kind of part of the question of sure about the benefit dad wasn't paying the bills at the house I come up from downstairs
Joey (14:33)
How can I roll now and be of any better.
about 19 years old. passed by the garage
Caller (14:44)
I
back, I'd been a bandit, a severe alcoholic for last 35 years. Until my stepfather died, I realized this way, and I stopped drinking.
Joey (14:55)
said yes and never and then ended up going into some for
Realized I can't live the dream
and the desire to drink left. That's such a painful place to be. And I think your question about is it worth kind of dredging up the past in order to heal to a benefit? And is there any benefit to going back in the past and trying to like heal from these things? Or, you know, should you just kind of keep moving through life because it had happened so many years ago? And I think this is a relevant question to everyone listening because it's, it's a big question because
Healing is painful. It's difficult. It's not easy. It's time consuming. It costs money often. And so whether you should engage in it or not is a big question. And some people, they come to a point where like, just, I can't take the pain. can't go through it. And so it's a big question of like whether it's worth it or not. And so I want to kind of weigh in on that. There's two camps that I've seen when it comes to this question of is it worth dredging up the past? One camp says no.
It's not worth judging up the past if your life is going well. You've kind of adapted, you are who you are, and you figured out a way to kind of move forward in life. That's one camp. And the other camp is the thought that even if life is going somewhat well, or especially if life isn't going well for you, then of course we need to go into the past, heal from the wounds that we've sustained so that our life can become better now and in the future. And...
I think one of the dangers to that thought is that we sometimes get stuck in the past. Like we revisit it and we sometimes get stuck there. So I fall more in the camp of like, I think it's important that we do revisit the past. It's important that we do heal from past wounds, even if they happened years ago. Because this idea, like Carl Jung, the Swiss psychologist, psychiatrist, he said, unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate. Unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate. And what he was getting at there essentially is like,
We all go through experiences in life that wound us. And unless we have a chance to process those wounds, essentially telling our bodies and our brains that those things that happened are now in the past, that we're safe, that we can move forward in life. If we don't do that, then they can continue impacting us even if they're 10 years in the past. That's essentially the basics of trauma. It can live inside of us while after the fact. And so we go through all these experiences in life.
They get lodged into our subconscious. We kind of hold them there without really knowing that they're there, because we're not consciously thinking about them, but they impact the way that we think, the way that we act, the way that we feel. And so Pope John Paul II wrote about this saying that, I think it's a tail end of love and responsibility. He said, it's important actually that we delve into the subconscious and examine the contents within. Like we need to take them out and take a look at them and see, okay, what is this?
these kind of forces within me, the things that are causing the way that I think, feel, what's there and how might I address it so that I can change the way that I think, act, and feel? And so one of the main questions with all of this is basically this. And I'm not gonna put you on the spot and have you answer this, but for everyone listening, the question is how is your life going? Are you happy with the way that life is going? Or are you struggling? Are you struggling with your emotions, with feeling what psychologists call dysregulated, where you're often
super anxious or depressed or you know kind of are feeling these really intense emotions and having a hard time coping with them. That's one area. How is that going on the emotional level? How's it going with habits? Like are your habits really bad and unhealthy? Or are you in a spot where you have really healthy habits? And then also in relationships, like how are your relationships going? Are they healthy or maybe are they...
a bit toxic where they're tearing you down and maybe you're not showing up the way you need to be as well. So essentially doing a little bit of an inventory and assessment of how is life going I think will help us understand how much time and effort do I need to dedicate to healing. So that's kind of the camp that I fall in that I think there's most of us, if we're honest, if we think like, yeah, my life maybe isn't going as well as maybe I thought or it's not going as well as I maybe make other people think that it might appear on the outside, then I think we come to this place where like, you know,
pretty broken and I need help, need healing so that I can become a better, stronger, healthier, more virtuous person. So that's a little bit of my thought on like is it worth going into the past? And I would say, know, for me, I know it's been worth it even though it's painful at times. Is that making sense so far? It does. Find myself. Wouldn't have done this. I wouldn't have done that. That becomes the blame game. hold on. does.
Caller (19:29)
Or I guess I'll... ...coming judgmental with you.
myself a cone become
a little tricky when it comes to what triggered the drinking really bad really bad
Joey (19:43)
It's like, okay, yeah, I made a choice in that
situation. I regret that. Not sure what I've done. It's not expected. And it was a bad decision to turn to alcohol. So I hold myself accountable. You know, he didn't make me take the first drink. didn't help. Right. No, I think that's important to acknowledge that this idea of taking ownership, I think we need to break it down a little bit.
Caller (19:50)
could have honored how do you handle it was done it's
for... didn't help.
Joey (20:09)
When it comes to what happened to you, especially as an 18 year old kid and the things that happened when were younger, it's like, my goodness, the trauma you endured, did your dad having an affair in front of your eyes impact you falling into drinking and struggling with alcoholism? 100%. How would it not? So it's more about the environment was ripe for you to go down that path. Now, could there have been some sort of a way where you resisted? Maybe, but it makes sense to me that you did.
And so I think the blame game is a bit fruitless though. Like what I'm more suggesting is understanding. It's like understand yourself to the extent that you know the reason I fell into the drinking habit was because of these things happening. And if they didn't happen, that would have been better. That's okay to say. And so I think that's a good spot to be. Where I think sometimes we get it wrong is that we then become victims where we give everyone else
the power and you we might've been victims in that situation, but then we choose to remain victims or just blaming everyone else for what they did to us and how we are so messed up. And what that does at the end of the day is it doesn't improve your life at all. And so you, you might not be able to take ownership of like what led to the problem or the problem itself, cause it might've been caused by someone else, but you can certainly take ownership of the solution of getting the help that you need of going to a meeting of, know, getting a therapist, all those things, which I know you've done.
So yeah, I think it's important to understand that distinction there. taking ownership, we don't need to, you know, lessen other people's impact on us. But I did want to talk a little bit about journaling. Like how do you maybe do it well and what's the value in it? And so I wanted to share the work of a professor at the University of Texas at Austin, who's written extensively and researched this extensively. It's really fascinating. He's seen incredible results with helping people be healthier, happier, less depressed, less anxious, have better relationship, better memory.
even more success at work. And so the question is like, wait, how do you do that? So he teaches a journaling method that is not your typical journaling. Typical journaling is just kind of like mindlessly writing, musing, putting down like kind of, I don't know, whatever you want. His method has this particular framework that you follow and I'm gonna get into that and then I'll offer a resource that can be helpful to go deeper. But here's what he would do in his research. He would take a group of people and he'd split them in two.
And to group number one, he would say, you guys, want you to write for 20 minutes a day, four days in a row about really mundane things like the weather, your shoes, whatever, kind of boring stuff. To the other group, group two, he would say, you guys, I want you to write about emotionally significant events in your life. That's it. And again, do it for 20 minutes a day, four days in a row. That's it. After studying this, apparently done like thousands of studies on this. They found what I mentioned before, that people who
wrote about the emotionally significant events, they were healthier, happier, less depressed, less anxious, more success at work, better memory, better quality relationships, all the things. And so how do you do that? So he recommends a few different things. This is Dr. James Pennbaker, by the way. Pennbaker says, you know, when you're gonna do one of these writing sessions, set a timer for 20 minutes. Open a notebook, open a document. You could even do like a voice memo thing, but there is a point to writing. There's something good about that visceralness of writing.
And he said, just write about whatever emotional experience that you need to write about. So in this case, about your parents divorce, about the affair, about whatever it is that's kind of top of mind, like on your heart at that particular moment. And he said, don't worry about grammar, just write. Don't judge yourself, don't edit, just like write kind of stream of consciousness, just let it all out sort of thing. Just go where your mind takes you to. You don't need to stay on a particular theme.
You can just go where your mind, where your heart takes you. And he says again, do 20 minutes a day, four days in a row. When you're done with that 20 minutes, stop. You could always do more the next day. And then you could either burn the paper, you could keep it, you can write a book, you could start a blog, it doesn't really matter. The point is that you've gotten it out of your chest onto paper, and that's the important part. And so he has a book, he has a couple books actually on this topic of how to journal in this fashion. And it's much more fruitful.
than I think the typical journaling a lot of us learn where we maybe write about our day and it kind of mimics that first group of people that he had just write about boring stuff which didn't see any benefit. The ones who wrote about the emotional stuff saw the benefits. So that's James Pennebaker and I wanted to mention that and again we'll put the links in the show notes to all those books if you guys wanna check those out. ⁓ But the final thing I was gonna mention is when it comes to kind of figuring out if healing is gonna be beneficial to you, we have an assessment.
that we encourage people to use, it's free and we'll put the link to that as well. And it does help you kind of figure out like where am I struggling or am I doing well? You know, are things like healthy, are they in like a green zone or are they, you know, maybe unhealthy in like a red zone or maybe somewhere a little bit in between. And I think that that often will create a.
Just good awareness, a good inventory of like, yep, I definitely need help in this area or that area because sometimes it's not so clear. We have blind spots and so that assessment just helps you kind of overcome some of those blind spots. So we'll link to that in the show notes as well in case it's helpful. If anyone finds themselves in this situation where they're thinking like, is it worth it to kind of dig up the past, which was really painful. But I hope that's helpful, man. It's great to have you on the show and I think this was helpful, hopefully for everyone as well. For me, it was. Thank you.
Caller (25:27)
I thank you.
Joey (25:28)
Many blessings to you and yours. Okay, real talk. If you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally, but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people. And it was really helpful for me personally in the guide. He breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make like under eating.
overstressing or focusing too much on the scale and it gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use that you can implement today. And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally. Hey, so good to talk with you. What's going on? How could I help?
Caller (26:10)
Joey, thanks so much for your time. I just wanted to get some of your advice on how to handle the situation with my parents. So for context, my parents have been separated for five years and the divorce process has lasted that long as well. Yes, so it's been a long time and it's definitely weighing on all my family members. So I just moved back home with my mom. So living at home with my mom while she's going through this process and my parents couldn't be more different. My mom
overshares about everything with the legal process and my dad pretty much pretends like it doesn't exist in relation with me, which in some ways is relieving. So I'm having a hard time just living at home with my mom as she undergoes this difficulty because, five years is a long time, especially when it involves legalities. And I've asked her throughout these five years to be more cautious of what she shares about my dad and also the legal aspect of it because my relationship with my dad is already rocky.
and adding her layers of rockiness to it is not helping my relationship with my dad. So, yeah, one, I'm not really sure how to navigate that with my mom when she overshares, and then two, the times I have asked her or set a boundary, she breaches it typically under the pretext of I'm trying to protect you and make sure he doesn't do something similar or just for you to be aware of what's actually happening. And she does say things like, I know your dad doesn't talk to you about it, so I just...
want you to know what he's actually doing. Yeah. So yeah, I'm having a hard time with that. was easier in the past when I wasn't living with her because, you know, the phone makes it pretty evident boundary. But now my question is just I'd love your advice for how to best navigate this relationship and dynamic with my mom specifically, while still honoring the fact that I'm the daughter as an adult. Yeah, and how to be charitable and understanding of her situation, but not be looped in.
Joey (28:06)
It's a great question. And a couple of things I want to say, one, five years. my gosh. My parents' divorce was three years. What I've been told by like attorneys and people in this space is that one year is kind of a typical divorce. It actually is faster now, I think post COVID, because they got a little bit more efficient for better, for worse at finalizing divorces. Two years is long. Three years is insane. And five years is just like, it's so rare. So
First, just like, can't imagine how painful that's been. Not to say that everything, you of course the dysfunction and everything that led to the divorce is painful, but the legal proceedings dragging out that long, I bet it's super painful. I can relate with your struggle too. I definitely have been in this scenario with my parents in some regards. I've seen my siblings in this position especially, where mom or dad kind of rely on us as their emotional confidant and someone that's like a therapist, as a sounding board, as someone to talk to, to confide in, to get advice from, support from, all that. And I think...
The reason this often happens is because one convenience, right? We're living at home. It's easy to open up about it. Uh, two, I think as children, like we, we want to help, right? We were just, we, we see they're in pain. My dad are in pain and we want to solve their pain. And so I think, I think it's like very natural thing for it to happen. And I think parents too, parents are like in pain or, know, like in your mom's case, she thinks that what she's telling you is somehow useful. It's going to prevent some sort of pain perhaps in the future. And on that note, I guess I had a question.
Do you see any of the information as protecting or as useful?
Caller (29:33)
⁓ It's more reinforcing of what I already see and believe. So in a sense, yes, but it's not a new piece of information that's beneficial.
Joey (29:43)
So it's not necessary. I want to touch on because there's parents listening right now and I want to just touch on this briefly. I think most parents are not malicious and then we're going to get into your answer about like, what do you do? What, how do you navigate this with your mom and with your dad? When it comes to most parents, I would say they're not trying to like hurt their children. In fact, they don't think or see this as like hard or difficult or even damaging to a child. But the truth is that it is your
experiencing it obviously, but there's actually been research done on this. I haven't delved into all this myself, but if you guys are familiar with Adam Young from The Place We Find Ourselves, he did a whole podcast on this. So he's a therapist out in Colorado. He has great content. His podcast again is The Place We Find Ourselves. And in episode 37, he talked about this idea of covert sexual abuse, or he calls it subtle sexual abuse. And it actually isn't physical at all from what he describes in most cases. It's just when a parent
you know, essentially turns you into a spouse. The fancy term is like spousification. You've heard this stuff. So anyway, that episode I would point you to, I'd point everyone listening to. We'll link to it in the show notes so you guys can easily listen to that. And he quotes some, there's like books that have been written on it. He quotes some researchers as well, just talking about how damaging this is. And so I know that you might not need to hear this. So I'm just kind of reminding you and telling everyone else that this is not the way it's supposed to be. It's not the child's job.
to be the therapist, to be the emotional confidant, to be the emotional spouse for my mom or dad. And so that's like the baseline. And so the question is like, what do you do with it? So you've already, you you had the boundaries when you weren't living at home. Now at home, it's more difficult. And so I guess on the far end of the extreme is like, do you have to live at home? What if you were to move out? That's one thing for you to think about. I'm sure you've thought of that plenty of times. And the other end is, you know, how do you kind of direct your mom?
to talk about it with people who would be appropriate. I guess that's one question for you. Like have you tried to maybe get her in touch with a therapist or a spiritual director or a friend or relative, someone she could talk to and vent about this stuff?
Caller (31:40)
Yeah, that's a great question and it's a really good avenue. I have suggested that to her and typically my lens is like making sure she knows that I understand it's a difficult situation and that she needs to vent it out. She does meet with spiritual directors who support her and has friends that support her. I would say the main reason she comes to me is, you said convenience, she comes home from a meeting with her lawyer and outspill the beans.
Joey (32:04)
Yeah, I get it. Okay. I get it. So it's more of like just a pent up emotional thing of like, you're there. She wants you to know where she needs to get off her chest. So in those situations, I guess, what, what do you do? Do you just listen and just kind of take it or do you say something, do something? How do you respond?
Caller (32:19)
It depends on my level of patience, honestly. Yeah. If I feel very at peace already, then typically I can respond with, I'll let her speak for a bit and then I'll chime in with saying, like, I know this is difficult. It doesn't sound easy. I've mentioned before, I think this is good for you to talk about with your friends, whatever other list I have. ⁓ If I'm on the short end of my patience, I typically, it like emotionally shuts me down because I think there's a subconscious, I know you're crossing my boundary.
and I'm mad that doing it. And then it won't be until afterward where I basically like in subtle turns dissociate from the conversation. And then a few hours later, like maybe an hour later, I'll tell her like, hey, I've asked you not to do this. It really affects me. Can we find a solution? Something like that.
Joey (33:05)
Yeah, okay, so you're doing all the right things. So just for everyone listening, like, you're, this is the exact playbook that you run. You put the boundary in place with an initial conversation typically, but hey, this is my boundary. I know you need a vent. I get this has been really hard for you. I'm not the one to do it to and here's why. And perhaps this is a suggestion, you know, and maybe more of a question of like, have you explained more like why you don't think it's good? And it's one thing to set the boundary, which is great. And you did that and that's perfect.
But I guess like for, from her point of view, do think she understands like why you're saying what you're saying?
Caller (33:39)
I she does. And I think when she's away from her emotional response, I do think she understands. But my mom's very emotive, so I think the passion ends up overtaking maybe a previous conversation where she was able to understand.
Joey (33:52)
Alright, so I think you have a few options. I think, like we said, you can keep doing what you're doing. It sounds like not much is gonna change, if I'm honest. It sounds like your mom, when she's in her right state of mind, she's going to respect your boundary. You might need to remind her here and there, but she'll be good. But when she's in this emotional state, it's kind of all bets are off. You're just gonna be subject to this going on until you move. And so that's one of the options, is moving out. And so...
We don't necessarily need to go into all of that, but that's just one thought of like, what would it look like to move out? know some of the barriers are, well, it's expensive or, I wouldn't live in the part of town that I need to live in or, you know, the list goes on. And so, ⁓ I guess it has that been a consideration without going too deep into that.
Caller (34:35)
Yeah, it has been and it's a goal of mine to get to that point. Part of the reason I didn't live at home for or even in the same city was to maintain that boundary. So the quick abrupt moved here was, know, I had to my house was available. yeah, ended.
Joey (34:50)
Nothing wrong with that. so, so maybe a little bit more tactically, you know, moving out is maybe like the longer term solution, not to like abandon your mom or anything like that, but just to have that proper boundary so that, and this is especially for your parents listening, you can have a healthy relationship. That's the goal. The goal is not to like, you know, abandon your parents and like have this estranged relationship. Sometimes that's necessary. but the goal is to have a healthy relationship and boundaries are essential. Without boundaries, we can't have healthy relationships. know this. So I think that's the ultimate answer here. In the meantime,
I guess the question is, is there anything else that can be done? Perhaps knowing when she's gonna come home and not making yourself available or knowing, even doing a little bit of a look back and thinking, okay, when does this typically happen? You mentioned when she comes home from the lawyers. Okay, do you know when that's gonna happen? Okay, maybe try not to be home during that time or occupy yourself, go work out or whatever.
do something else that ⁓ could be a solution. That's obviously just a short-term solution. Another idea I wanted to throw out, if you think this would be useful, you might have to chew on this, is listening to that episode on this very topic of subtle sexual abuse, of this idea of spousification. See what's helpful? It's kind of a hard episode to listen to, but there's a lot of good stuff. My brother and I were talking about this at one point, and we were both like, whew, that is a lot to take in. But it's framing good. And so...
I would say maybe listen to it and then if you think it would be fruitful, perhaps sharing the episode with your mom and asking like, hey, this might be a lot to listen to, but I love to talk about it after you listen to it and here's why, like I want a really good, healthy relationship with you. I've noticed this pattern for months or for years that you open up and I get that you're kind of feeling so many emotions and you want to vent, you need an outlet, but I really, it's damaging our relationship. And I think that's often what
parents don't really know. And it sounds like you've done a good job of already communicating. That's just a matter of her just not respecting the boundary. But I think parents don't understand how damaging this is and how it actually makes children, adult children, want to push away from them and want to not have a relationship. And that's often the result, not the solution. It's the result where people get so pent up, or so fed up with mom or dad that they're like, okay, I'm done. This is it. And so that's what I would say is I think she might need more
information on like why this is so damaging and how it's going to drive a wedge because you've been so gracious and patient and she's probably kind of looking at it and saying, well, you're reminding her, but there's no severe consequence, not saying there has to be, but there's no severe consequence from her doing it. And so it's kind of like,
I'm just going to keep doing it. You know, this seems like it's good for me and I, so she somehow thinks it's good for you too. So I think showing her through research, through stories, through your own like heartfelt, like, here's why this is hurting our relationship. You know, that might have an impact, but it sounds like you've done some of that already. So I think the ultimate solution would be, you know, putting that boundary of like living on your own as an adult and then having that healthier, you know, relationship so that the convenience factor at least is removed. And she's then kind of forced to go to someone else with her emotion and venting. Does that sound about right?
Caller (37:48)
Yeah, yeah, and that's really helpful. think sharing the episode with her actually would be a really good tool for her to get more understanding of why I am saying what I'm saying or doing what I'm doing. So I definitely want to give it a listen. I think I listened to it a couple years ago, but it will be helpful to listen to it again and then share it with her.
Joey (38:03)
Awesome. And I definitely encourage like making sure that you're kind of leading with your intention. Cause sometimes, you know, there might be a misunderstanding like, why are you sharing this with me? Or what's, and what's the point to all of this? And you could even say one phrase I like to use in these kinds of tense conversations and say, Hey, I'm about to say something that's kind of uncomfortable or that's difficult to talk about. Then you kind of set the tone and knowing like, okay, this is a serious conversation. And then the second thing you could say is like, it might be natural, like to get defensive. You might feel a bit defensive with what I'm about to tell you.
So then you're kind of anticipating like how they'll respond. then they'll say, okay, maybe I'll try not to be defensive. And then you lead with your intention saying, well, here's why I'm telling you this. I want a great relationship with you on a healthy relationship with you. But the problem is, and that's maybe the fourth point, the problem, this has been happening in our relationship. And you know, I think if this continues, like I'm feeling like I would perhaps push away from you and I don't want that. I want a good relationship, you know? And then here's this podcast episode I listened to that
talks about the research behind this and how this would be so damaging to a parent-child relationship. Would you be opposed to listening to this episode and then talking about it with me? We can go grab a meal or coffee or a drink and talk about it. I'd really like that if you're not opposed to that. How does that sound?
Caller (39:16)
that sounds like a really kind charitable and effective structure that I definitely want to practice. I think the key for me in all of this is, mean essentially with that structure you're demonstrating, it shows maturity and charity and though the situation is difficult I want to grow and mature more into the person God created me to be rather than turn away and like just move out as an easy solution. So I think this will equip me well for that.
Joey (39:40)
Yeah. And I think, you know, even you doing this and then if it doesn't improve, you know, again, reminding her of the boundary, if she violates it and she, hopefully she would apologize and be like, I'm so sorry. I just got so emotional and I shouldn't have done that. You know, then that's okay. Are you feeling better about it? Yes. Great. I know there's probably a lot of resistance inside of you. Like, do I really need to have this conversation? I don't really want to. And yeah. And my encouragement would be to kind of push into the discomfort. I believe strongly is just like growth happens outside your comfort zone.
So yeah, I'm really excited to see how this goes for you and I hope it's a step in the right direction.
Caller (40:13)
Yeah, I hope so too. Appreciate your advice.
Joey (40:19)
That wraps up this episode. If you'd like to call and ask a question on the show, just go to restoredministry.com slash ask or click the link in the show notes. How it works at the moment is that once you submit your question through the form, we'll review it. And once my team approves, you'll actually get a link to schedule a call with me and then we'll jump on a call for 15 to 20 minutes and your face and your name will not be shown, only your voice.
will be heard and we'll work through your question. Again, you can ask your question by going to restoredministry.com slash ask to start the process or just click on the link in the show notes. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember, you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.O.S. Suess who said, you can't go back and change the beginning.
but you can start where you are and change the ending.
Heather thought her family life was normal. But over time, she uncovered two buried traumas that quietly shaped her childhood—and required deep healing.