#139: Dating or Marrying Someone from an Intact vs Broken Family | Paul & Maggie Kim
Pending! Stay tuned.
Pending! Stay tuned.
So many of us from broken families end up dating or marrying someone from an intact family. But that presents challenges, which we discuss in this episode with an amazing married couple where one spouse comes from a broken family and the other is from an intact family. We also discuss questions like:
What did you fear about marriage? Maggie opens up about her fear of someone cheating on her.
How have you handled conflict and how has marriage brought you joy?
How do you choose the right person who won’t change after the wedding?
If you’re from a broken family dating or marrying someone from an intact family, or vice versa, this episode is for you..
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
Joey: ~One of the struggles that our audience has is that they've expressed this fear to us where they end up marrying someone they think is solid. They think is good, but then they change ~[00:00:00]
Paul: when we got married, we had to learn how to argue. Well, you know, arguments are not a sign that a marriage is in trouble.
It's the inability to resolve the conflict. That is the sign of trouble.
Maggie: It's only through arguing. In a healthy way and resolving conflict that we get to truly grow in intimacy and to learn more about each other.
Joey: I remember Father Mike Schmitz saying that in our culture, we've reduced love to romance and romance to sex.
Paul: Love is a decision. It's willing the good of the other. Happiness isn't an end in itself. And that's what most of Western culture is doing. They want to arrive at happiness like it's a destination.
Joey: How has marriage brought you guys joy?
Maggie: Marriage for me has been so healing. Knowing that I can be my most vulnerable, ugly self and this man chooses to love me every day, ~chooses to be committed to ~
Joey: Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panerelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and And build [00:01:00] healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.
Today, I'm joined by Paul and Maggie Kim. Paul is one of America's top Catholic youth speakers, reaching audiences of all ages across 50 States and 16 countries for over two decades. He's the creator of the online course, a Catholic guide to adulting, a founder of the triumph men's conference, a musical artist.
And his videos have over 10 million views. With a bachelor's in philosophy, a master's in marriage and family therapy, and experience as a therapist, missionary, and youth minister, he impacts over 40, 000 people worldwide every year. Maggie is a Catholic convert since 2013 and a registered nurse who has a passion for fertility awareness and all things motherhood.
In her free time, she enjoys the thrillers, desserts, and movie nights with coffee. Paul and Maggie live in Austin, Texas with their children. So many of us who come from broken families end up dating or marrying someone from an intact family, but that presents a lot of challenges, which we discuss in this episode with an amazing married couple, where one spouse comes from a broken family and the other is from an intact family.
We [00:02:00] also discuss questions like, was it difficult for you to open up to Paul about the problems in your family? What did you fear about marriage? Maggie opens up about her fear of someone cheating on her. How have you handled conflict and how has your marriage brought you joy? How do you choose the right person to Who won't change after the wedding.
And finally, you'll hear about a resource for young adults as a new year's resolution or any time of the year. And so if you come from a broken family and you're dating someone or marrying someone from an intact family or vice versa, this episode is for you. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith.
And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while It's not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you need to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode.
And with that, here's the conversation, Paul, Maggie, great to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.
Paul: Thank you.
Maggie: Thanks for having us.
Joey: As we usually do, we'll just dive right in. Uh, Maggie, when you came on the show previously, that was episode, uh, 64, for anyone who wants to go revisit that. You, you shared [00:03:00] really openly about how your parents divorce had affected you.
But Paul, I'd like a little bit of context on your family, if that's okay. What was your family like growing up?
Paul: Uh, I do not come from a family of parents who divorced, thankfully. But, you know, like everyone's background, my family was, You know, far from being perfect, right? Unless, uh, your parents names are St.
Joseph and the Blessed Mother, chances are it's going to have some problems, right? And so, yeah, I mean, born to Korean immigrants, just like Maggie was, and being born in Southern California, being raised Korean, growing up in America, having sort of like this bicultural expectation, which was very fascinating, very difficult to kind of navigate.
As I'm comparing myself to my peers and I'm seeing how my parents are raising me. And I'm like, why? And now as a, as a grown man, obviously I think I have a better appreciation for culture, for diversity, for things that frankly are good in every culture. And also identifying things that are not so good [00:04:00] and having a deeper appreciation from where I come from.
I mean, thanks be to God, my, my parents, they, they tried their best, like every parent is trying. I think as you get older, you come to realize that parenting isn't as easy as you thought it would be. Um, we have six kids now, and you know, when I give talks at parishes and events and things like this, when I'm talking about marriage and family, I always tell them, you know, the ever trending phrases that parents universally say.
When you become my age, you'll understand what it's like or what I'm saying. You know, my parents just sounded more Korean than, you know, Midwestern. But at the end of the day, yeah, there there's a truth to that. And so while, you know, I grew up. With some levels of resentment and frustration with my parents and maybe their, their shortcomings, failures, et cetera, I also see that one, they were trying their best and two.
I also see like the [00:05:00] things that they did well and the things that they wanted for me and my siblings. And, and so all that to say. I think the ever present challenge for parents, at least those who, who really want to be intentional is, you know, I'd like to do this better for my kids. And with the full realization that you bring along with you the wounds and the struggles and, and the brokenness that you experienced.
And so there's almost like this unspoken reality that when you become an adult, when you become a parent, when you become a spouse, You're also unpacking all of this stuff simultaneously. And it's, it's very difficult. It's very challenging. And not only that, but because we get so very busy in our culture, you know, working, raising the kids, doing all the things on the to do list, the noble task of really delving in and trying to heal from like certain issues or face the problems that you know, are kind of a feature of youth, you A feature of imperfect families to set the time and have the [00:06:00] wherewithal to be like, I need to work on this and I'm going to work on it is also another challenge.
And I don't know, depending on, you know, I think thankfully in 2024, I mean, despite all the rampant mental illness, which I'm convinced is a part of our, our culture, I'm not going to get too into that right now. But what I will say is the silver lining is people are aware that this is a resource. And I think people are more apt to maybe take advantage of this sort of thing.
And I think it's, I think it's very important, obviously I'm biased, but being a Catholic, you know, ensuring that the therapist has some sort of level of faith. Because even in psychology, the world of psychology, morally speaking, it can kind of be all over the place. Because like any other study, it's, uh, it was a huge spectrum of beliefs in that field.
Also,
Joey: thanks for sharing about your family. And I couldn't agree more with like the, just the messiness of our culture. And I think, I know you guys would agree, like so much of it does send back to the breakdown of the family. And so it's so important. I think like you guys are a beautiful example of this, that we, [00:07:00] you know, Try to heal our brokenness, seek healing to build virtue.
So we can go on and what I hear you saying, Paul build, you know, healthier relationships, beautiful families, strong families, holy families. And so I'm excited to dive into that deeper. I want to get your advice on some things as well that I know our audience cares deeply about. Um, but I was curious, I know all of our female listeners will want me to ask this question.
Like, tell us a little bit about your love story. If you can give us a quick version of that, uh, Maggie, I assume that Paul's. Dashing good looks were the thing that drew you to him, but I'm curious, like, it was his dashing good
Maggie: looks and his corny dad jokes.
Yeah. So we actually met at a wedding. Um, a friend of ours was getting married and, um, he had asked Paul to be the MC at his reception. And so he, yeah, he was on the stage, cracking jokes and performing music and just kind of charming the crowd. And I was. It's definitely charmed. And I was like, I hope this guy talks to me by the end of the night.
Um, and
Paul: I did, [00:08:00]
Joey: did you notice her earlier? Had you known like who she was?
Paul: You know, what's funny is at the wedding ceremony, she actually sat in the pew right in front of me. And, um, yeah, she, she walked right in front of, she sat down and I was like, Oh, she's kind of cute, you know, trying to be focused on,
Paul and Maggie: I only
Paul: got a side view.
I didn't see like the full, your full face. So, you know, profile pictures can be a little misleading, right?
But, um, she sat down and then, you know, the wedding ceremony started. Later on at the reception, I noticed her again and she had a beautiful smile and yes, she was laughing at my jokes. So I thought what a woman of great intellect and taste to acknowledge greatness. No kidding. I'm kidding. And so You know, I approached her and introduced myself and then later on, um, my pickup line, if you will, it wasn't really a pickup line.
It was just an [00:09:00] intro was, um, I noticed she had like tattoos on her shoulder. So in my mind, I'm like, this, this is going to go one of two ways. Either she's like a crazed party girl, which I'm too old for, or like, you know, I, or there'll be an interesting story. And so like, I asked what's the story behind your tattoo.
And that was kind of the intro.
Paul and Maggie: And
Paul: so, you know, I. Tried to hang out with her, get to know her, dance with her, and she was kind of like, acting so demure, so cutesy, and running off, you know, and playing hard to get, but little did I know that there was like an ex boyfriend of hers that was there, um, and so there was like all this drama.
Like, it was like a storm cloud that was brewing around me to the point where later on, a friend of mine who was mutual friends with all of the ex, also the ex boyfriend and some of his friends, apparently there was such a commotion for them seeing this rando, like, try to get with the ex girlfriend that one of the guys was like, should we jump him?
Should we jump him in the back? [00:10:00] So I am glad that I didn't get. sucker punched in the bathroom that night. Needless to say, um, you know, I asked for her number before the night ended. And it was interesting because on the way out, my faith was very important to me at that time. So as I was walking her out to the parking lot, I asked her what church to go to.
And she said like mosaic or something like this. And I'm like, that doesn't sound Catholic. And, uh, this might be a bit of an issue moving forward, you know? And once again, I have lots of friends who are Protestant and obviously like, I think there's a lot in common that we have with all Christian believers, which I think is great and important.
And I feel like, yeah, there needs to be a lot more dialogue because half the time when I post anything remotely Catholic, you know, all the people come out of the woods and with pitchforks saying, you know, you Catholics, you worship idols, you worship Mary, goat sacrificing, you know, that's not Save yourself.
You don't need Jesus. Blah, blah, blah. You know? And it's like, no, no, [00:11:00] no, it's not it at all. And so, um, anyways, our, our relationship began and, you know, we're having some really great dates and then naturally the conversation of faith comes up and she tried to break up with me a couple of times because, you know, I'm Catholic and.
Her bias was just so strong, but we had great conversations and, um, I was starting out my ministry at the time and she was coming with me to presentations and churches and prayer events. And, and honestly, God was kind of doing the heavy lifting, showing her that maybe her presumptions about Catholicism were.
Misinformed. And, and I think that opened up the door to just allowing also Maggie to experience the beauty of our faith and very long story short, she joined our CIA, became Catholic right before we got married. And, and, uh, now we've been married 11 years and we've just been blessed with our, our six little baby.
Yeah. Well, at the time of this recording, it'll be like almost half a year ago. And, and so, um, or at the time of. When people hear this in the future, [00:12:00] so we're blessed. Beautiful.
Joey: I love it. Maggie, anything you'd add about the story?
Maggie: I mean, yeah, that's kind of like the short version of it. I think, you know, along with the hurdle of figuring out how are we going to practice our faith as a married couple?
And as a family, there was also. just a lot of fears and wounds that would come up. And I think, you know, Paul mentioned that I had broken up with him a couple of times or tried to break up with him. Um, and it was the religion aspect was, you know, a part of that, but I think it was also me trying to for lack of better words, like take control of the situation and leave the relationship before it got too hard, before it got too scary.
And, you know, like just the fears of like, how will this work? Like, how will this marriage last if we do end up getting married? So a lot of those questions were also coming up for me and the way that I dealt with it was by trying to run away. And thank, thank God that [00:13:00] this guy wouldn't let me. And yeah, we learned how to deal with those fears.
Joey: Beautiful. And we've heard that a lot. I think it's a trend for people like us who come from divorced, broken families, where I remember hearing the story of a woman who I think she was engaged three times. So like good guys, like these weren't bad guys, but she had just such an intense fear of love marriage, like her marriage ending, like her parents had that she broke it off each time.
So that kind of element of self sabotage. So that's beautiful. We, as we're able to work through that, I want to go deeper on the fear theme. So Maggie had shared previously as well. In addition to what you just shared, yeah, you feared marriage. And I can certainly relate to that coming from the film that I did.
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To see what Dakota offers, go to dakota Lane fitness.com. Dakota is actually giving away for free his PDF Guide, the Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid. You can download that@dakotalanefitness.com slash restored. Again, that's dakota lane fitness.com/restored. Or just click the link in the show notes. And so I'm curious, like, was there anything else in particular that you were afraid of when it came to marriage?
Maggie: Yeah, I think something in particular was this idea that I had been taught my whole life that men will always be unfaithful at some point. You know, that was the case for my parents marriage and [00:15:00] in a lot of, you know, my friends parents marriages. And yeah, it was just kind of like, it seemed like it was the norm, like if you watched.
Movies or TV shows or like, you know, a book, like a typical story. And there's seems to be infidelity involved at some point. And so that was a real fear of mine going into marriage. And it was something that I was just told growing up, but this is like just typical, a typical man's behavior that men have quote unquote needs.
And that they aren't capable of committing to one person. Like this was the message that I was told growing up by friends and family. So that was really ingrained in my head and in my heart. And I honestly, before meeting Paul, I never even like came across the idea of like chastity and purity and, You know, fidelity in marriage.
So that was, yeah, something that was hard to get over.
Joey: Totally makes sense to me. I mean, if that's like what you thought the future held for you, it was kind of your fate [00:16:00] then yeah. Why would you want to go down that path? But thankfully, like you said, there's another option. Paul, I'm curious from your point of view.
Was it difficult to kind of understand where Maggie was coming from with a lot of the brokenness within her family? And if so, you know, and her fears and struggles in particular, it was difficult to understand those and, uh, what maybe helped you understand and like help her walk through those?
Paul: Um, it wasn't so much during our dating.
That it seems like a particular issue for us. I think it's when we got married and you know, naturally marriage is beautiful and it's a gift, but there's quite a learning curve, right? Where, you know, we hadn't moved in together prior to marriage, right? The good old fashioned way.
Paul and Maggie: And
Paul: on a complete side note, there are studies that basically completely secular studies that show that the divorce rate goes up.
If they move in together prior to marriage, and it's very fascinating why that might be, but we wanted to ensure that obviously that we weren't doing things to weaken the foundation of our, of our future and present relationship. But, um, when we got married, we [00:17:00] realized, yeah, like most couples do, we had to learn how to argue well, because the reality is, even though you're on cloud nine and you get to live with this person you love, and you just got married.
It's like, wow, not only do we have to figure out what way the toilet paper is going, we also have to figure out, like, where is this anger coming from? Why is this person like flipping out about something that seemed inconsequential? But, you know, the reality is behind every trigger is a story. And that story often was a part of, you know, This person's life, my wife's life way before I even showed up and vice versa.
And so we had to learn that there were like wounds and there were, there were issues that stemmed from the brokenness that we now needed to unpack as a couple. And, um, you know, naturally in the moment, especially that first year. You know, it was kind of rough figuring out how to do [00:18:00] this. Well, trying not to take things personally, wondering like in moments of heated, like emotion, like, Oh my gosh, like, I don't know how to navigate this.
And then, you know, once the calm is there and, and there's more, uh, reason that sets in for both of us and we're empathetic and we're listening, it's like, Oh, that makes perfect sense. Why you felt that way. But here, this is the truth of the matter. And so we need to work this out. And, um, so I think that's a process pretty universally for every couple, but Maggie coming from her background and her family history, yeah, it made sense why she, you know, found certain situations or conversations difficult.
And, um, I'd like to think over the past 11 years, you know, we're not perfect, but we've gotten a lot better at being able to. Not only understand each other, but also to better argue because, you know, arguments are not a sign that a marriage is in trouble. It's the inability to resolve the conflict that is the sign of trouble.
And, um, the irony of [00:19:00] course is most couples get married. Like as a Catholic, the joke is, you know, if a person has a call to be a priest, he is in seminary for seven to nine, 10 years. formation on the daily, you know, and for the most important vocation of his life before ordination and married couples, you know, in their preparation for the most important vocation of their life, it's like four meetings with the pastor and one like lousy retreat.
And it's like, good luck. And it's like, I don't know how, yeah, I don't know how, uh, equipped a lot of couples are, and it just, it's a roll of the dice depending on what you were taught as a kid, how your parents modeled it for you, what you've done to like proactively go out and learn about. How do I deal with these issues in my life and in other people's lives?
Have I done the hard work of like identifying, wow, these are areas in my life where I really need growth and I need to stop medicating, self medicating, or running away, or whatever. And so this is why, you know, [00:20:00] like love and The emotions behind romance, they're very powerful drivers, obviously, for human beings to want to get married and procreate.
And I mean, this is how God designed us, right? It's how he designed humans, but sometimes the rose colored glasses, right? They prevent people from understanding what is the preparation that I actually need to make in order to make the marriage work beyond the wedding day. Because in our Western culture, it's like, Oh, it's about the dress.
I say yes to the dress. I'm like, Oh, the wedding's going to be amazing. And oh my God, honeymoon equally amazing. And then it's like, yeah, here comes real life coming at you fast. Yeah. And so like, obviously as people of faith, it's the understanding that Marriage as a vocation is meant to accomplish one particular thing.
And that is to help one look more like Christ. And the way Christ looked was best described in Ephesians when St. Paul wrote that husbands love your [00:21:00] wife, like Christ loved his bride, the church. And the way he did that is he died, died to self, he endured suffering and torment and incredible adversity. In order to not only save his bride, but to heal her, restore her.
And I don't want anyone thinking, oh, well, naturally that's the chauvinistic patriarchal way of thinking like you're at the savior, but no, that's not what I'm saying, but Christ indeed showed us men and women as a model, what sacrificial love looks like. And at the end of the day, if people are not aware that marriage takes sacrifice and love, which is not a feeling.
That's gas. Love is a decision. It's willing the good of the other. And it, you know, once again, that that's the real stuff.
Joey: No, so good. I love that. And I remember father Mike Schmitz saying that in our culture, we've reduced, uh, love to romance and romance to sex. And so I think like [00:22:00] you're saying that there's such this expectation that love and marriage in particular is just meant for your own happiness.
And I love what you're saying. Like, That's actually not the purpose of marriage. Like there's happiness within marriage and that's beautiful. It's good. Like I've experienced that myself in my own marriage, but it's not the purpose. Like the purpose, like you said, is to make you the best version of yourself, to make you holy and, and of course to have children from them.
So, so good. And yeah, feel free to jump in, but I love the two, the two takeaways I had from you when it came to like dealing with the conflict, we'll get into that maybe a little bit more later too, is like having a curiosity about your spouse. Like I think so often, especially if you've been dating for a while, it's easy to think like, You know, I know more or less everything about this person.
And then you get married and you know, you realize like, actually, there's a lot more I need to learn. And so that curiosity, I think is big. And then the empathy, of course, as well, some of the lessons I pulled from that, but you were going to say something.
Paul: Yeah. You know, it was interesting. I came across a quote recently from St.
Thomas Aquinas, who is one of the most influential philosophers and theologians of Christianity. And one of his quotes, it is happiness is secured [00:23:00] through virtue. It is not an end in itself, but a by product of the pursuit of the good. So I'm gonna say that one more time. He says, quote, happiness is secured through virtue.
It is not an end in itself, but a by product of the pursuit of good. Of the good. Uh, St. Thomas was all about figuring out, you know, especially giving props to the ancient Greek philosophers who were also asking these profound questions of what is happiness? What is the pursuit that truly fulfills human beings?
Um, how does one attain this ultimate happiness or this greatest good? Right. And even the Greek philosophers, you know, while they didn't have. Faith in Christ or an understanding of theology. They just based on pure human reason, kind of came up with the fact that it's through this practice of virtue and according to the catechism of the Catholic church, virtue is the habitual and firm disposition towards the good.
I love that. Cause virtue, it's not a feeling, right. You know, as St. Thomas Aquinas was saying, [00:24:00] happiness is in an end in itself. And that's what most of Western culture is doing. They're trying to figure out like they want to arrive at happiness. Like it's a destination. Like I just want to be happy, but they don't understand that happiness isn't just like a momentary fleeting moment of emotion.
And that's. Why I think so many people are disillusioned, even with sex, and even with like, the hookup culture, is that they're chasing this happiness, but they realize they have it momentarily, and then it's gone. It's like trying to catch water in your hand. And they equate happiness with sex, or love with sex, and then the sex is, is done, or maybe it gets old, or people just like use each other, and lust never satisfies.
And then they're just like disillusioned. They're disillusioned with all of it. Whereas St. Thomas is like, Hey, happiness is secured through virtue. And by practicing this firm disposition towards the good, as I try to be a better person, as I try to be more loving, more sacrificial, more self controlled, as I learned not to give into my base desires, as I [00:25:00] learned to be devoted, as I learned to make my life a gift to others, you realize, wait.
The very thing I was hungry for, the by product, right? This happiness is what I actually achieve. And, and so even in marriage, it's kind of like that. If you just want to be happy and, you know, sadly with a lot of couples who end up getting divorced, you know, what do they say? They say, I wasn't, I'm not happy anymore.
I'm not happy. And understandably, that's how they feel. The question is like, did they put in the work? Were they chasing the by product or were they actually doing the work? The difficult task of practicing that virtue and not giving up so as to then arrive at the very thing they wanted this whole time.
Because if we're just chasing the byproduct, namely happiness, which is fleeting, then it's just that it's fleeting. And so without really this kind of mature understanding of what love is and what commitment looks like. [00:26:00] And also just kind of this greater and this deeper motivation too of, of not giving up.
Because honestly, like without the grace of God and the grace of the sacrament that comes through marriage, like I don't, I don't particularly know how people do it. To be quite honest, like it's not within our human ability to like do marriage. Well, like without the grace of God, like forget about it.
Like it's, it's too hard. It really like, what's the point without the grace of God? So go I, but whereas when we have a foundation, a starting point, when we have an ideal, when we have a Lord and savior and God who shows us the way. And who is there not only to encourage us, but he's there with us, even in the suffering and the struggle, then like everything changes.
And even in those moments of difficulty, we find within ourselves, like the strength and the grace and the ability to forgive, to see the best in one another, to [00:27:00] remember, like, Hey, we made a commitment. And this isn't trivial. This isn't based on my feelings. This is like a lifelong thing. And I need to keep my mind and my heart focused on Christ so that I can indeed fulfill the vows that I made at the altar that day.
And, um, you may have heard this story, but in Croatia, there's like this particular town that has like a nearly 0 percent divorce rate and a particular ritual that they do at every marriage in that town is they pick a crucifix and when they exchange vows at the altar, they, they put the crucifix in their hands and they exchanged the vows.
Grasping the crucified Lord who laid down his life so that his bride, his spouse could live. This couple is now clutching that crucifix, that reminder of what Christ sacrificed for us while exchanging these vows to their beloved so that indeed in good times in bad and sickness and health, it is till death do they part.
And so, you know, the tradition continues where after the [00:28:00] wedding and the ceremony, they, they hang the crucifix up. in a prominent place in their home so that indeed in good times they can kneel before the lord and thank him and praise him for all the gifts and when they're having like a crap hits the fan fight they can also kneel before that crucifix and say lord if you don't help me we're gonna kill each other that's true i mean
Joey: no it's it's a marriage is a tall order and now i love everything you said So good.
So many things I could comment on, but I wanted to, um, ask a question I know is on a lot of the minds of our listeners going back a little bit. Um, Maggie, I'm curious if there was any sort of fear or hesitation to kind of let Paul in and let him see the reality of your family. Um, I know I felt this when my wife and I were dating, I kind of wanted to shield her from the brokenness and the dysfunction.
And I would even like on a practical level, maybe not tell her things that were going on. Cause I was like, I just, Don't want you to
Paul and Maggie: know
Joey: that that's at least the heroic, heroic version of the story. I was probably just too scared to tell her, but, but yeah, I had that experience. If you, you [00:29:00] know, kind of struggle with that and if there was anything that helped you then open up and show him the truth.
Maggie: You know, I, it's funny, I wish I had been a little bit more like you in that sense and been a little bit more wise about it because I think I did. Kind of have this tendency to just unload and share, you know, just really hard things are really terrible things that I had witnessed or, um, even like as I was, um, dating Paul and preparing for marriage, I was also kind of going through my own journey of healing and seeking therapy and processing a lot of what had happened in my childhood.
And naturally I'm coming to my. You know, boyfriend or fiance at the time and sharing a lot of these things. Um, and then even, you know, as we got married, a lot of that just kept unfolding and I had to be really careful and I had to learn to not share everything to every, you know, every detail and to really also protect.
I guess like the reputation of my parents too, um, because [00:30:00] there, there were moments where I did share things like this had happened to me when I was this age, or I remember witnessing this thing. And then while I'm kind of learning to heal and forgive them through the processing of like what had happened, Paul is like now experiencing it for the first time through, through my eyes.
And so I think we had to kind of find that balance of, Like sharing, but knowing how much to share so that he can also, you know, love my parents and, and see the best in them and not just see them through this lens of hurt and woundedness. So, yeah, so I think I kind of had like a little bit opposite of what you went through, um, where I had to learn how to like, relook back a little bit.
Joey: Totally makes sense how there's like kind of two ends of the spectrum and I maybe didn't share enough. And like you said, maybe there was some oversharing on your end, but yeah, I think if I had to choose though, there's something I think better about having the open communication, but I totally get the struggles that could come from that.
So, um, so no, that, I think that's helpful. And I, No, that our listeners could probably relate to both [00:31:00] experience, different listeners to different experiences. There's so much we could say about that, but I really want to get to like, kind of this lightning round of asking you guys advice. Um, so is that okay if we transition to that?
Sweet. Okay. So you can be as brief as thorough as you want. Um, one of the struggles that our audience has is that. That they've expressed this fear to us where they end up marrying someone they think is solid. They think is good, but then they change, they become not the person that you married. A lot of them have witnessed that in their own parents marriages.
And so I'm curious, like what's your advice for like really vetting the person and making sure that, um, you know, they are virtuous and they are the right fit for
Maggie: you. Um, man. Yeah, that's a good question. I think that's why the dating process and the engagement process is so important. And it's important to really ask the hard questions during that discernment period.
And yeah, I, I think, I think it was important for us to not just make a decision based off of our feelings at the time, but really diving into like, [00:32:00] what are your core beliefs? What, what is like, what is going to be the foundation of our family? What is that going to look like? And, you know, leaning on our faith and That helped a lot with, um, just discerning, like, is this the man that I want to marry?
I don't know. Do you have anything to add to that?
Paul: Yeah, I think I agree with everything she just said. And just, yeah, there, there are a couple like non negotiables for me. And that was like, one, I want to be able to raise our future family in the faith. Right. Particularly like I wanted us going to the same church and I wanted our relationship to be Christ centered.
I wanted to obviously know that we were in agreement with values. worldview, like obviously there, there has to be like a level of alignment with worldview. Otherwise it's going to be a pretty difficult road ahead, not only worldview, but just values in general. And so, you know, naturally there have been some like relationships dating wise, where there are some things that we aligned on, but then there were obvious red flags or things that we didn't align on.
And so the [00:33:00] reality is like, once those feelings and emotions fade, which they will, it's not going to be like a flamethrower of romance, like all the time in marriage, it feels that way sometimes when you're dating and it can really blind you from asking the more important questions of like, is this a person who I'm comfortable, like entrusting my future kids to, you know, like a question I've heard that, which is a really good discernment point for people who are dating, but If I had a future daughter for the ladies out there, would I be comfortable with her dating a guy like this?
And same thing for the guys. If I had a future son, would I be comfortable with him dating a girl like this? And um, it's a good question, you know, cause it's, it's one thing to just like each other or be able to just, you know, get along for the most part, have meals together, do fun things. feel romantic, but like for the marathon, which marriage is, it's like, you got to make sure that you're really aligned and not only your beliefs, but your expectations.
And obviously expectations can change beliefs can change as well in [00:34:00] different ways, but there just has to be a foundation. That's bigger than just like how you feel towards each other. There has to be a common mission, right? There's this really controversial Bible verse. Where St. Paul writes, um, wives, be submissive, be obedient, be submissive to your husband,
And most, uh, the most eye rolls that happen from women in the congregation probably happen on that Sunday. But if you actually take apart the, the Greek word of submit. It's not what most Western women are thinking. It's submissio, which means to come under the mission of to submit. Doesn't mean like he gets to tell me whatever the heck I need to do.
It's like, no, because I love, and I believe in this man. And I realized that he has a vision and a mission for our family and our future family. Like I am willing to partner with him in that mission. And that's, that's vastly different than this kind of skewed vision of [00:35:00] like, Oh no, it's just a domineering thing.
It's a power struggle and this, that, and the other. I mean, no way. Like the joke is like, you know, scripturally speaking, men are called the head of the household. Right. But But women are, are the neck, they can turn the head this way. And that way I can close off the air supply. They can, you know, very, very influential.
So this is a partnership. You know, the head needs the neck. The neck needs the head.
Joey: No, 100%. If you come from a divorced or broken family, and maybe, you know, someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more.
All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry. com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.
Maggie: [00:36:00] Another practical thing that I wanted to bring up is the importance of addressing conflict in the relationship prior to marriage. And I, you know, whenever I would talk to, like, younger women who are dating or engaged and they'll say something like, Oh, I never fight with him. Like we just get along so well.
We never fight. We never argue while that sounds really nice. A part of me is also like, okay, but it's going to happen. Like it will happen in marriage. And what is that going to look like? How do you guys, how do you guys communicate? How do you guys resolve things like that is such a, it's a skill that needs to be practiced.
And you know, going into marriage, I viewed arguments and quote unquote fighting as. It's something that was really bad and a really bad sign and maybe like, I made a huge mistake and I really needed to flip my mindset and, and view arguments as a natural thing that occurs in marriage and see the good in it because it's only through arguing.[00:37:00]
in a healthy way and resolving conflict that we get to truly grow in intimacy and to learn more about each other. Um, and to, to do better, like the next time to anticipate what the other person needs and how they feel loved and. Yeah. So I going back to, you know, before marriage, when you're discerning if this is the right person for you, I would really highly encourage people to, uh, not just like look for a fight or pick a fight, but to really like go through that process of like, okay, we need to talk about some hard things or we need to address things that might be an issue and, and just, yeah.
And learn how to argue in a healthy way.
Paul: Yeah. Like the elephant in the room or. The inevitable conflict that the couple might very well see, but maybe out of discomfort, they don't want to like touch that with a 10 foot pole, right?
Maggie: They sweep it under the rug. Yeah. But
Paul: naturally you're, you're going to have to face that.
And so better for you to face that and learn how to grow through it [00:38:00] before you get married, then not deal with it, get married, realize that you guys have like overestimated your ability to do this, that now you're in a crisis. And so, once again, it's not to say that, like, you have to go through some, like, knock down, drag out fight in order to know that you're marriage worthy, but, like Maggie was saying, to not avoid the, um, the uncomfortable conversations.
Because like, yeah, in my experience when I was growing up to conflict was very difficult because there wasn't a whole lot of space, like growing up as a kid to be able to like verbalize my frustrations or disagreements with my parents. There was really no room in the culture that my parents grew up in, you know, they were just mirroring and modeling what they had experienced.
And so like, as a kid, conflict meant like, I just have to shut up and listen. I'm the one who's wrong every time. And so through different life experiences, through different formation, through different opportunities, living in community [00:39:00] with other people, like I had to learn rather quickly, you know, actually, like I have one of two choices.
Either I can be passive aggressive because I didn't really deal with the problem or address it, or I can just like straight up, like. Get into world war three with this person, right? I can go full on. Like I'm going to schedule an MMA match with you. Neither are necessarily helpful. Right. And so, and so even in marriage, it's, you know, like I said earlier in this, in this interview, like conflict, isn't a sign that your marriage is in trouble or your relationship, it's the inability to do so.
And so, yeah, there's a purely secular. Resource out there. That still is pretty good. Um, the Gottman Institute, Dr. John Gottman is like one of the foremost experts on marriage counseling. And he has like, basically pretty profound studies on being able to indicate whether a couple based on like one, one hour session are going to last or get divorced.
And the great indicator for him, you know, based on these couples he journeyed with for like decades was the [00:40:00] inability or the ability to In a healthy way, resolve conflict, and also the existence of what he called the four deadly horsemen in a marriage or a relationship. And based on the existence of those four deadly horsemen, he was able to indeed with over 90 percent accuracy, figure out if a couple was going to make it or not.
And so it was pretty wild, but once again, like resources like that, helping couples to like avoid certain pitfalls, uh, the four deadly horsemen, by the way, are criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt. And so like realizing that all of us, we, we might subscribe to one of these horsemen. And so in the context of an argument or disagreement, like if one person starts getting really critical, because maybe that was their upbringing and they were criticized all the time.
It just like as a defense mechanism to start criticizing, criticizing. And that's just not going to go well. Same thing with defensiveness. Like maybe they're just like, they're so overwhelmed in the conflict. They're like, I never did that. I didn't do that. You know, you're just, you're making up crazy stuff or stonewalling where a person gets so [00:41:00] emotionally flooded that they they're physically present, but they, they have left the conversation.
You know, they're just not engaging anymore. It's like a fight or flight thing. Right. And then contempt, which is kind of one of the most dangerous ones where just like all respect is gone for the other person. And so like, these are very easy things to turn to in the moment of conflict and during an argument and most couples.
They really, once again, unless you've done the work or you've had the practice or someone has mirrored or modeled this for you, or you've gone to counseling, or you've like not only read the books, but you've sought to put this into practice. This does not come naturally. It does not come easy. And so, like, you know, we just enrolled some of our kids in Brazilian jujitsu, right?
Everyone starts as a white belt and when you're like, I haven't really done it for an extended period of time either, but like, when you're a white belt, you're just kind of drowning the whole time. You're getting choked out left and right. You don't know what the heck you're doing and naturally, you know, through the [00:42:00] progression of showing up day in and day out and rolling and inspiring with these people, learning new techniques, you develop your skills to the point where you stick around long enough.
You're going to move up in belt class and you'll get it become a black belt. Eventually. And I think the, the simple analogy applies to marriage where like, when you get married, you just, you're like that white belt where you're like, what the heck are we even doing? Like, I know this is not the right move and I'm just using the move anyways, you know, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't have said that, but it feels good right now to do and.
You
Paul and Maggie: know, you get,
Paul: you do the work, go to marriage counseling, if you need it, you read some books, you get some counseling, you know, you do this hard noble work and then you're like a blue belt. You're like, Oh yeah, I'm not going to fall into that trap that we're going to get choked out real quick if we do that.
Or, you know, or like, Oh, we've been in this situation before and I know what happened last time. And so instead of progressing and trying to just, Put all of my, my strength into it when really it's just a technique thing where I need to [00:43:00] take a different route instead of like exhausting myself and the other person.
Why don't we choose a different method? Right. And that can only be learned through experience. And so simple analogy, but yeah, very relevant. 11 years. I don't know what. Belt. We are
Paul and Maggie: not
Paul: a master at this yet, but
Joey: we sometimes just lose the belt. Like, I don't, we go backwards, but other times we're like, okay, I feel like we're getting the hang of this.
No, no, I think that's. There's a lot of lessons in everything you just said, like the aspect of patience with each other. Again, kind of going back to the curiosity piece, I think like asking questions in the midst of conflict is such a good thing to do, because otherwise you're making statements which feel like accusations.
I think, you know, I've heard the tactic of like, you can always speak from your own experience, like, you know, when this happens, like, I feel this way instead of saying you, like, You know, you just, um, so I think that's good too. Another, uh, I think Gottman taught this, we learned it from a therapist, but, uh, calling a time out.
We've heard that as helpful [00:44:00] where if things just get too heated, you know, have a preset time, whether it's 15 minutes or even 24 hours, somewhere in between usually, um, where you just kind of take a breather. And then you come back to it and that's another, I think, helpful tactic, uh, repeating back, like what you hear the person saying, uh, or what you think they're saying.
Like in the military, they do this in briefings, actually, it's called the read back and I've used it in the business world. And it's so helpful of like, Hey, like give me a read back. Like, what did you hear me saying? Like, what do you understand? And yeah, all those, I think tactics can be really, really helpful.
But, um, but yeah, I think it's the emotions can certainly. I get really, really hyped. So really good, really good advice, really good feedback. Thank you for going through all that. I, um, know we're running out of time here. So I just want to ask, um, I guess one more question that I want to hear about your course, Paul, how has marriage brought you guys joy and made you guys better?
Cause I know sometimes I'm guilty of maybe talking about trying to prepare people for like, Hey, it's going to be hard. It's not going to be a fairytale. And I think there's such an important point to that, but I also want to kind of balance it with like, no, there's actually a lot of goodness and joy. So I'm just curious if you want to share a story of Like, how has it made you better?
How has it brought you joy?
Maggie: I think obviously coming from a broken [00:45:00] family background, marriage for me has been so healing knowing that I can be my most vulnerable, ugly self, and this man chooses to love me every day, chooses to be committed to me and to our family. Um, that is so healing for me. And so that.
has brought me joy, just knowing that we are in this together, that through a lot of trial and error and a lot of, um, just learning about each other, learning just, you know, our, our own personal wounds, but also learning how to navigate life together. We have both grown so much. And yeah, I think just knowing that, like, I have.
This companion, this, my husband who is with me day in and day out through thick or thin till death do us part. Like, yeah, that has just brought me a lot of joy and healing.
Paul: Yeah. I find a lot of joy knowing that she is my only fan.[00:46:00]
Paul and Maggie: I couldn't
Joey: have said it
Paul and Maggie: better. It's relevant to this
Paul: conversation. I mean, you know, I'm like sharing my
Paul and Maggie: heart right now, going real deep. Can I throw that in there? Yeah,
Paul: it's good. Yeah, it's very good. I mean, seriously, like, I mean, I throw that in as a complete, like, tongue in cheek joke, but like, It's true.
Like our culture has like things so backwards and it's just so miserable and nihilistic and so unsatisfied to the point where like, I heard this crazy, like stab at the majority. Apparently of only fan subscribers are married men. That's terrible
Maggie: mom.
Paul: That's absolutely damning statistical evidence that like families in our culture are not in good shape, you know, marriages.
And so, you know, while I'm, I'm just being sarcastic and joking a bit, but, but truly like the way God made it [00:47:00] in the beginning, it was not. So, you know, the joy of knowing that, like, not only do we have one another, we have God on our side to give us indeed the strength to fulfill this beautiful, noble and difficult task.
And the joy is like, like Maggie was sharing. Like I have this friendship and Maggie that I have with no one else. And it is very beautiful. And, you know, scripturally, you know, it would say that people knew each other, understanding that it wasn't just like, they, they would describe the sexual act between couples as knowing one another.
And yes, there is a very intimate and beautiful and, um, exclusive knowledge that a husband and a wife get to experience with each other. But it's far more than just the sexual act. It's, it's indicative of like the whole, indicative of the whole relationship. Yeah. You know, the Marilyn Bray sex is just really just the icing at the top of the cake.
The cake is very big. And, you know, as we had mentioned earlier, like father Mike said, you know, people equate love with sex [00:48:00] and to, uh, to give a nod to another, uh, legendary priest, his name is father Benedict Rochelle. He passed away not too long ago. He was, he founded the CFR as a friars. And he was like a spiritual father to me for, you know, A season of my life.
And he had such a great sense of humor. So wise. But he said, he said in his Jersey accent, sex comes easy. Love is hard. That's true, man. Any, any fool with hormones can have sex. I mean, any fool. But like love, love, wow, that is not, is not for the faint of heart. Like love is willing the good of the other, and that requires all the virtues, um, to really make that work.
And so the joy I think has been knowing that like Maggie has my heart. I can entrust myself to her. I'm safe with her. I too can, you know, share my insecurities. I can be honest and real. But just knowing that I, you know, like Adam in the garden, right. There was like this original solitude, this longing that St.
Jean Paul II talked about in theology of [00:49:00] the body, where, while he was like really cool with all these like pets and exotic animals, there was still a longing to have a helpmate, a helper. You know, and then when he sees, you know, Eve, he says, flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone, he realizes that he had met his equal, that he had met, you know, and I want to be really careful to say the one who completes him because now the one who ultimately completes us as God, but in this life as not only a gift, but a consolation, like, yeah, this woman I have.
I can have and hold and, and to jury with. And the joy has been that as having this like very unique and beautiful friendship that I can rely on. And so, yeah, it's a beautiful journey. It's all worth it. It's, it's a lot of fun. You know, we laugh a lot. And. We share a lot of great memes with each other, probably the best, you know, I love it.
No,
Joey: so good. Well, thank you guys. And, uh, yeah, it's just been so good kind of watching you from afar. You know, I love [00:50:00] the content you put out and it's cool to see your beautiful family before we close on the conversation that I want to make sure that, um, people know about your course, because I think if they want more advice, like we're talking about here, you've built that, you deliver that through your course.
So tell us a little bit, what is it? How does it help people? How do they get it?
Paul: Yeah, absolutely. So a few years ago, I created a course called the Catholic guide to adulting and adulting being that, you know, kind of pop cultural reference of all things having to be an adult and put my big boy pants, my big girl shoes on.
And it's true, like after college. You know, the young adult experience, it's rough because there's a lot of things being thrown at you. Everything from faith and finances to dating and discernment and my mental health and these issues that are coming up and these interpersonal conflicts that I keep facing at work and romantically and with my parents and siblings and ah, and it's a lot.
And so I was like, dude, I remember that feeling very well as a young adult. So what if there was a resource that could help people almost like a one [00:51:00] stop shop where they don't have to like Google search everything and try to vet these sources. But what if there was a one stop shop where they had. You know, a reputable guide where I'm not just pulling from my own wise thoughts, but I'm pulling from scripture.
I'm pulling from our faith traditions as Catholics. I'm pulling from the wisdom of the saints and frankly, just like the sage knowledge that I've also picked up through the years from wonderful counselors and pastors and friends. And that's why I created a Catholic guide to adulting. And so it's an online course where people can go at their own pace and basically tackle all of these topics that really matter to young adults, whether you're single, whether you're in college, whether you're a working professional, whether you're newly married, whether you've been in all of these things for a while, there's something for everybody because ultimately the end game of adulting well is to be.
a saint and to be like Christ. But once again, it's not just like a fluffy devotional that says nice things, but it's a really nitty gritty practical guide and [00:52:00] tool that I believe is changing lives and helping people to live their best life and avoid a lot of the pitfalls that frankly their peers are falling into.
So if people want to learn more about this course, they can just go to catholicadulting. com. Once again, that's catholicadulting. com. And for the listeners of the restored podcast, if you type restored, as you're checking out, you can get a little 10 percent discount just to say, thanks for listening. And, um, yeah, I hope people really benefit from it.
We have members from several different countries, um, several hundred people from all around the world who are benefiting already. And so I hope that your listeners will benefit too.
Joey: Love that. Thank you so much for the discount. And yeah, no, you have so much wisdom. And I love the fact that it's like packaged and something that people can work through at their own pace and maybe even do as a couple.
I think that sounds awesome as well, especially if maybe one of them is from a broken family. One of them is not kind of like your story, like mine and my wife's story as well. So, so good. Um, thank you for that. And I know what's your other website. I know you do speaking engagements and lots [00:53:00] of other things as well.
Paul: Yeah, sure. So I've been speaking full time for the past 14 years and Praise God. The ministry is taking me all around the world and I'm super grateful for it. Uh, if they want to find out more about my ministry, they can go to pjkmusic. com or just Google search, Paul J Kim, J period Kim, and they'll find my website.
And I'm obviously on social media. I'm most active on Instagram, but they can just look up Paul J Kim. I'm there. And Maggie's on Instagram too.
Maggie: What is it? I don't even remember. Maggie Kim, 49, I think.
Joey: I think that's it. Okay, cool. Yeah, we'll make sure to link to all this in the show notes, but that sounds about right to me.
And you guys know, I love, again, watching you guys from afar, because I think we need more examples of, yeah, just beautiful marriages and showing like the real side of it, how it can be a struggle, but then also how beautiful it can be. And I think you guys do such a good job of that and you're real about it too.
So that's why I wanted to have you on. So Thank you guys for being here. Um, I want to give you guys the final word, like what final advice encouragement would you offer? Especially to maybe the younger you guys, like when [00:54:00] you were a couple, again, one of you come from a broken family, the other one coming from an intact family.
What final advice, encouragement would you offer?
Maggie: I hope that your listeners leave this podcast with hope. I think for me, like I lived a lot of my life feeling hopeless about love and marriage and what that would look like for me in the future. And just, yeah, just from my experience, I hope that people view marriage in a hopeful way.
It doesn't mean that it's going to be easy. Um, marriage is tough. It's gotta be tough. Um, we have to choose to die to ourselves every day and to be committed to each other, but there's nothing. Anything that's hard in life, it's worth it. It's worth working towards it. So yeah, I just, I hope that I can express that there's so much goodness and growth and virtue and joy that comes from seeking marriage and working towards it.
Paul: Yeah. Amen. What I will say too, just kind of based on that is [00:55:00] regardless of your family of origin or how your parents marriage was, you can have the marriage and the family you always wanted. It's going to take work. It's going to take you deciding that certain traits, certain brokenness, certain problems that your family is influenced by, you have to make a decision that it stops with you.
But if you have the courage to do that, you can really change an entire generation and generations to come. And while that might sound a little dramatic, it is absolutely true. Because now we have kids and we're burdened with the beautiful task of trying to do it better than our parents did. And it's a battle and it's a fight worth engaging in.
And that battle is often interior. It's like, Hey, I have these things I'm working on. I have this area of woundedness that like I need to really unpack and bring before the Lord. And I want to be the best husband and dad. That I can possibly be and not just to feel good about myself, but for the sake of my bride and [00:56:00] my children.
And it's all worth it. It really, really is. It's a beautiful journey. So don't let anyone ever tell you that marriage isn't worth it and kids are too expensive. God will provide. And so that's what I, what I have to say about that.
Joey: Again, definitely check out Paul's course, a Catholic guide to adulting. If you use the code restored again, restored past tense, you'll get 10 percent off that course that wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you.
Feel free to subscribe or follow on apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever podcast app you use. Not only is it the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help. And it only takes a few seconds.
If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback. And that also helps people find the podcasts. In closing, always remember you're not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life, and we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.
S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
