#140: Hardest Part of the Divorce: Seeing My Siblings Struggle | Anthony

The hardest part of your parents’ divorce or family breakdown is seeing the people you love suffer. 

That was true for my guest today who happens to be my older brother, Anthony: Watching our siblings struggle was the hardest part for him.

In this episode, you’ll hear us compare stories about our parents’ divorce from our perspectives as siblings, plus:

  • How Anthony had a sense of, “This is not how things ought to be” and a little about how a family ought to be.

  • How he was automatically made the man of the house when he shouldn’t have been and the effects of that.

  • How healing is not a one-size-fits-all, the imperfections of certain types of therapy, and a new healing method that’s been effective for him.

  • To parents listening: Tips on discussing your divorce with your children without oversharing.

If your parents are divorced or struggling in their marriage and watching your siblings suffer has been hard for you, this episode is especially for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: [00:00:00] What was life like for you during the separations, the divorce?

Anthony: It was kind of hell, if I'm being honest. So like that whole time was like the hardest times of my life. Like the tapestry of my life or our family's life is being torn apart. And at the same time, like I couldn't do anything about it. And that was like, incredibly helpless.

I was kind of an intermediary. I remember a lot of times kind of getting in between mom and dad and trying to like talk them to the other person's side. As a child in that situation you had this like gut instinct that this is not how things ought to be.

Joey: You mentioned anxiety, you mentioned like pressure, stress, but were there any other emotional problems that you experienced through all that?

Anthony: I think as a child What you want to know is like that things are secure, that you're safe. I remember looking out the window and there being like these police cars. And you're like, Holy shit. Like what, you know, like what's going on here.

Joey: Welcome to the resort podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you.

We help you heal your [00:01:00] brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle. And build a better life. My guest today is actually my older brother, Anthony. He grew up in the Chicagoland area as the oldest of six kids, where he played every sport imaginable. Uh, he double majored in philosophy and theology at Franciscan university of Steubenville, where he captained and starred on the baseball team being awarded the Kuzma cup as an outstanding scholar athlete.

After graduation, Anthony taught theology. He did youth ministry and coached baseball for several years. He now works in the golf industry as the director of food and beverage operations at a golf club in Illinois. Anthony is a proud uncle and loves spending time with his niece and nephew, actually my kids, and he still enjoys sports traveling and in his words, it's a degenerate fantasy football player.

Really excited for this conversation. If you come from a divorced or broken family, the hardest part is seeing the people that you love. Suffer that was true for my brother, for Anthony, he said, watching his siblings struggle was the hardest part for him. And in this episode, you'll hear us compare [00:02:00] stories of our parents divorce from our perspectives as siblings.

And you'll hear us talk about how divorce is almost always a lose lose for the children, how Anthony had the sense of this is not how it ought to be. And we talk a little bit about how a family ought to be, how he was automatically made the man of the house when he really shouldn't have been in the effects.

of that on him, how he, uh, his experience healing, but how healing is not one size fits all and the imperfections of certain therapy models, certain therapy types, and a new healing method that's been effective for him, uh, to any parents listening, we talk about some tips on how to talk with your children about your divorce without oversharing.

And then Anthony shares how he struggled in his relationship with God and what he learned that has helped him heal. And so if your parents are divorced or struggling in their marriage and watching your siblings suffer has been the hardest part for you, this episode is especially for you. Two things before we dive in.

You'll hear me share details about my parents divorce that I don't usually go into as much detail about. And without changing my story, I often simplify it on this show to make [00:03:00] it a little bit more concise. Um, but I'm really glad that we were able to dive into those details and I'm able to share those with you guys.

And also in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this.

Just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to learn a lot from this episode, still going to benefit you. And so with that, here's our conversation. Welcome on the show. Good to have you here.

Anthony: Thanks, Joe. Thanks for having me, bud.

Joey: You are the first family member to come on the show.

So I'm excited to, uh, just see things through your perspective. One of the things that I've always heard is like, as a parent, you're never the same parent to each child. And I think it's true, like as a sibling within a family, like. You each perceive the family and even your parents differently. So I'm really interested to like learn from you and see maybe how you perceive things differently.

And I perceive things differently. So yeah, with that, I'm curious from your perspective, what was [00:04:00] home like in the years and the months before mom and dad split?

Anthony: Ooh, I guess like, so there was kind of this, you know, kind of waves of, cause the original time that, you know, about 10 years prior mom and dad had split for a while or been separated for a while.

And then they got back together and it was kind of like this miraculous reconciliation to some degree, or at least for a while. Right.

Joey: Totally.

Anthony: But in terms of like the months. The months prior, maybe not months and years, the months prior were pretty strenuous. I think it all started like when our uncle died in August of 2012.

And it kind of put our dad, understandably, in a very difficult place, you know, dealing with like the second traumatic death in his family in his lifetime. And so, you know, kind of You know, re triggered all that trauma and you know, so it brought it up to the surface again and I think, you know, kind of put him in a, in a whirlwind and then so fast forward, like six months later when mom and you [00:05:00] know, when mom and dad ended up, you know, the filing for the divorce was made, you know, the months before we're tense.

I remember Like when that finally went through, or it finally, like there was finally a separation, just remember realizing, like feeling my body shaking and realizing, like, I think I've been shaking for like months, you know, I just remember this distinct moment of feeling that. And it was, yeah, it was just like, it's just like, it was a very difficult period.

Like it's, you know, when you're a child in that situation. And I mean, at that time I was. You know, I was older. I was in my twenties. So an adult child, you can say, but as a child in that situation, you had this like gut instinct, this like intestinal fortitude that this is not how things ought to be. And like in that whole time, well, pretty much for most of my life, but especially in that whole time, like I really had this, this is not how things ought to be.

This is not how things ought to be. And it's like this disharmony or this, what do you call it? And what do you call it? When music, when the notes don't, you know how [00:06:00] the notes go together, but then there's a time when the notes don't go together. I can't think of the term. Yeah.

Joey: Discordant or disharmonic or

Anthony: something like that.

Discordant. Yeah. I think it's discordant or something along those lines. Yeah. It's like, you know, musical notes were, you know, like C, A, you know, D minor, all these things were made to go together. But like in, And different types of music, they play like discordant notes. And that's how it felt like that period is just like this, like discordant notes.

It's like intestinal sense that like, this is not how things ought to be.

Joey: That's really good. I think part of the reason that people miss how. traumatic divorce and the dysfunction that precedes it can be is because they don't have this like understanding of how things ought to be. Because if family life is whatever you want it to be or whatever, yeah, whatever you define it as, um, there's no like objective standard of what it like should live up to.

Then I think there's often this perception that like, well, that was just Not a big deal. It's not a big problem. But obviously the stories that we hear all the time and the [00:07:00] research show that, so it's really interesting that you kind of had this thought, this is not how it ought to be. Did you have an idea or understanding of how things ought to be?

Anthony: Yeah, definitely. Um, you know, like, we were blessed to grow up with some families, particularly one family, right? That I think really, like you just looked at them and you're like, this is how it's supposed to be, you know, and it kind of was like a, they're like a beacon of peace amid like the storms of like a troubled marriage, you know, and, um, so having that, and then also seeing a bunch of other couples, like I can think of a couple off the top of my head that you're like, look at that and you see that and you're like, I want that because that's not what I grew up with.

But you just know, like, you don't, you know, it's almost like self evident truth, like, you don't need anyone, it's like the little kid who just knows that something isn't fair. That kid couldn't define justice, but they know that something isn't fair. And it's the same thing, like, kind of, I think, in those situations.

You couldn't define what's wrong particularly, or you couldn't maybe put it into words, [00:08:00] but you know it when you see it. Um, that, that being the right thing. And I think that was like very much my experience growing up.

Joey: Yeah, no, that's super good. Wow. I definitely see what you're saying. And I thought it might be helpful for everyone listening to maybe go through the timeline as an overview and feel free to correct or add anything you'd like.

So for everyone listening, so our parents actually separated twice and they actually began a divorce on both occasions. To my knowledge, you can correct that. You're right. Yeah. Yep. So I was a 10, 11. When it first happened, and then you would have been what, 13, 14 at that time, about? Yep. Yep. So then, um, that was the first instant they were separated for what, a year and a half, I think?

That's the knowledge that I had. That's what it sounded about, right?

Anthony: Yeah, it was pretty much spring of when I was 14, I would say, until like December of when I was 15. Okay. Yeah. So that makes up about a year and a half. Yeah.

Joey: So spring of 2003 to December of 2004.

Anthony: Yeah, exactly.

Joey: Okay. Yeah. I [00:09:00] remember it was around their anniversary actually that dad came home.

Yeah. So that was like, Anthony mentioned that it was a kind of a miraculous event. They went on this retreat. Um, some of you might be familiar with like the retrovive retreats. And that was from, to my knowledge, like pretty instrumental. It would, maybe it wasn't the whole picture to, um, To bringing them back together because they, like I said, had started the legal divorce proceedings, whatever, and, um, and then they kind of changed course and got back together.

Um, the way I always explain it then is that it was good that they were together, but things were very broken, you know, at home within the marriage. And that's not to like pass judgment on our parents. I think they would both describe it that way if they were here right now. And then fast forward about 10 years, so I am, I think, 20 at the time, or I guess 19 going on 20, and it was August, like you said, of 2012, so I'm 19 at the time, you would have been, what was it?

Anthony: Uh, 23, 23, sorry, you to

Joey: turn 23 and I was about to turn 20. Yeah. Anyway. So, so for, just for [00:10:00] context, like I was at home, I was, I went to junior college. I took the semester off ironically when our uncle passed away and that's when, you know, understandably so it just really weighed on my dad and that's kind of put the things in emotion like Anthony said before.

And then later that. So that was the fall, that was August, so go into like the spring, and March was when the divorce was filed, if I'm remembering right. So that was kind of just the timeline of how things went down, and then they, our parents, um, went through, uh, actually a three year divorce process, if I'm getting that right, too.

Yeah. It was very, like, I remember someone saying, like, you know, a year is about average, two years is, like, very long, three years is, like, insane, and that was the process. Um, so in some way, we went through this twice, and both each kind of had their particular, like, struggles and details, which we may or may not get into in depth.

Um, but certainly both really difficult and traumatic, I would say. So anyway, with that kind of timeline in place, hopefully that helps you guys understand kind of where we're at in the story. So I'm curious. Um, yeah. So, so you, [00:11:00] you went through kind of what led up to the separation, the divorce. Is there anything else you'd like to add in that?

Or do you feel like we're at a good spot?

Anthony: No, I, I think we're at a pretty good spot. Yeah. I think it was just, you know, you know, of course you can't limit it to like those. And, you know, nothing is, or almost nothing is, you know, just only sparked by one thing. There's usually a lot of things that play into it.

So I don't, I'm not as simplistic as saying like our uncle's death started all this. Cause obviously with the timeline you described it didn't.

Yeah.

Anthony: But you know, there's always kind of, um, I think there was, you know, things happening before that, that definitely contributed. So

Joey: yeah. Cool. Okay. So just to, again, reiterate, you were originally what?

14? 15? 15. When mom and dad split and then you were 22 when they divorced or when they started their divorce, at least, and then, um, and how old are you now?

Anthony: I am. I'd rather not reveal that. I'm just kidding. I'm 35.

Joey: Okay, cool. Yeah, that's helpful for context. And for the record, I [00:12:00] did know that. And so I guess we'll kind of maybe treat both instance separately.

Well, separation separately. So how did you learn about the separation, the divorce, and what was your reaction to it?

Anthony: So I learned about it. Mom came to me and told me that she was going to get a divorce, you know, because she was scared. She didn't feel safe. You know, basically she had kind of reached her wits end.

And so I was Kind of a little bit shocked, but a little bit not surprised. And I actually, I'm pretty sure I told her like, yeah, like after a long time of her, like talking about it and me saying, don't do it at this time, I was like, yeah, I think you should do it because things had gotten that bad and I didn't.

I just remember overhearing some like just conversations that kind of made my blood, you know, like gave me chills, you know, they were kind of just that disturbing, you know, and not something a kid should be hearing or of any age. And so I was remember thinking like, well, you know, it couldn't, couldn't get any worse [00:13:00] than this.

So maybe a, you know, a separation or divorce is, you know, not a terrible idea.

Joey: Yeah, and I think, um, yeah, I know we're kind of being careful with some of the details just to protect mom and dad for everyone listening, because we don't want to disparage their names, but we're also we're trying to be honest about it too.

So it's definitely a difficult line to walk. But, um, so that was like that later instance. And I'm curious about the one earlier on how you learned about that, because I have a kind of a version of the story in my head, but I'm curious if yours, like when you were 14, how did you learn about that? What was your reaction to it?

Anthony: Yeah, that one. I don't remember. I mean, of course it's like similar buildup in a certain sense, but I just remember that one kind of crescendoing and, you know, well, I remember dad, like basically kind of like had somewhat moved out and then one day, you know, mom was decided she didn't want him there. And even though he had been coming and going and not really there for a while.

And so I think I just have this memory of like, I don't know, like. I don't know, [00:14:00] like bags of clothes or like, you know, things being gone. And so that, you know, as a kid, that's hard, like to just like the ambiguity is hard, right? Cause like, I think, I think as a child, what you want to know is like that things are secure, that you're safe, that, you know, things are going to not change that much in that radical of a way.

Right. And so like that, you know, the kind of like the coming and going the, you know, where's dad or, you know, why are his clothes out? That's like, that's, that was really hard. And, um, yeah, so that's what I remember of that, like beginning. Right. And then there was, I think there was an incident and then it, it led to, you know, it led to basically after that.

Um, basically, yeah, the separation for a year and a half. And then I think mom had like a restraining order and that, you know, that was kind of a tough dynamic. Cause it's like, you couldn't talk to your dad and then things like that. So yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to go on [00:15:00] and on, but that's, that's what I remember of that.

Joey: Okay. Yeah, no, I have similar memories. I, um, I think one difference, which is interesting to highlight is that. I don't think I was aware of, like, the beginning stage as much. I think it was a bit of, obviously, you were older, but I think it was a bit oblivious to it. I don't know if we were told something else was going on or what the deal was, like, if that was just, like, out working or something like that.

But I do remember very clearly, I think it was, like, a Saturday. I remember I had a baseball game. I remember our neighbors took us out of the house. to like the park and that's when there was I guess this situation where like that was dad's like official exit from the house without going into many details I don't think it was violent or anything by any means but like the police were involved to just like

Anthony: yeah it wasn't violent at home at least but I think it there was some other situation that that had kind of led to the police being there and that yeah and so also like you mentioned that point as a young kid That's like tremendous.

I, cause I remember, I, I remember looking out the window and there being like these police cars and you're like, holy [00:16:00] shit, like what, you know, like what's going on here and that, you know, that is like very confusing as a young child.

Joey: I remember that. I remember that, um, we were, yeah, we were intentionally taken from the home and we, we'd kind of grown up like around police officers and firemen and kind of looked up to them and understood that their job was like serious.

And, um, there were even some instances earlier on where we were like. We help the police with certain things. We won't go into that. Um, but, but, uh, so, so we kind of understood like

Anthony: we even had a nickname. Do you remember that?

Joey: I do remember that. Um, what was the nickname that you mentioned? People are wondering.

It

Anthony: was, uh, it was the Ponerellic Crime Stoppers. Cause we, there were like these two instances where we like, we caught like crimes in the act or, or people in places they shouldn't have been.

Joey: Yeah.

Anthony: And so this officer, um, said, man, you guys are the Ponerelli Crime Stoppers.

Joey: And I think they happened pretty close together, which is funny.

And then there's Yeah, it was within

Anthony: a Short window. Yeah, yeah.

Joey: At, [00:17:00] at the risk of making it sound super heroic, there was like nothing else that happened, in our life, like outside of that.

Anthony: It wasn't, it wasn't that big of, it wasn't that big of a deal, but Yeah. Yeah.

Joey: We probably thought we were Batman, but it was No, that, that was, yeah, I remember that there was like, um, we actually lived in like a pretty nice area.

It wasn't like high end area by any means. I wouldn't say that at least. But it was like, you know, middle class and there was a house across the street where there was like some sort of drug activity going on. It was kind of an anomaly for the area from what I remember. And um, and we kinda helped them.

take down that house. So yeah, pretty like we didn't do anything crazy, but we kind of fed information and reported on it. So anyway, I did not expect to go into that in this interview, but, um, yeah, so, okay. So yeah, so we had like this context of like police being serious. And then, um, yeah, we went to the park that day.

The neighbors took us. And then we came back too soon. I don't know if you remember that, but it was like, we weren't supposed to come back that soon because that's when we saw the police and the driveway and we're like, what is going on? Like we thought maybe someone was hurt or something happened. Um, and then I don't think we got many [00:18:00] answers from the neighbors.

And I remember me, like we went to another park and we're like. Trying to play. And it was just like, obviously top of mind, at least for probably you and me, maybe Gerard. Cause for context too, we've there's six kids in the family. I'm number two and Anthony's number one. So Anthony's one, I'm two. And then Gerard would be, um, right under us and the other siblings won't go into as much right now, but anyway, that, yeah.

So that day, I remember when we came home that day, um, that's when mom kind of explained what was going on. Did she explain anything to you prior to that? I'm curious.

Anthony: Yeah, she did. And, um, Yeah. So I had kind of known, I think, honestly, I had known for years that there was trouble brewing and, um, which I don't really think was a blessing.

Um, I think it was more, I think I was kind of. given too much at too young of an age, but, but yes, I knew, I knew that something was wrong for a while. And, uh, so I don't think, you know, from my perspective that day, it wasn't as shocking in terms of like the, what it was happening, but it was more shocking, like how it was happening.

Joey: I see. That makes sense. What advice for any [00:19:00] parents listening or young people who like maybe want to convey information to parents, what's your advice for like. How much they should share with their kids. And I know there's maybe two scenarios that I'm asking this. And one is like kind of an ongoing sharing of like seeking emotional support from your children, which we've talked about a lot in the show.

It has like a lot of dangerous pitfalls. Um, but maybe more specifically with the actual. Event of like a separation or a divorce like what's appropriate to share what's appropriate not like what you shouldn't you share sort of thing I'm curious if you have any principles or advice because it is tricky because like on one end if you don't share anything It leaves the kids sitting there like I have no idea what's going on.

I want some level of understanding. On the other end, if you share too much, it can be a huge burden too. Um, I felt like there was, in our instance, to no malice of mom or dad, I felt like there was maybe too much that was shared where I felt like I wish I wouldn't have known as much, but I'm sure there's other scenarios of people listening [00:20:00] where they like feel like they're even more so in the dark.

So I'm curious if what's the balance between the two, especially as it relates around the Event of like a separation or a divorce beginning.

Anthony: I think a couple of things. I think like, well, I think it's a difficult for parents because I was definitely an inquisitive kid and I wanted, you know, I like want to know why mom was upset.

I wanted to know what was going on in different situations, but that also ended up knowing those things at that age became a huge burden on me. Frankly, to some degrees, you know, still has remained to this day. So I think a couple of guidelines, I think you shouldn't share anything that isn't like age appropriate, that they're not ready to like here or to maybe not even here, maybe to deal with at that age.

You know what I mean? And so like, and I also think that to some degree, like as a parent, you can't be just confiding in your child. You know what I mean? At a young age. And I also, I think at any age, but I think particularly at a young age, like that your children shouldn't be the people you go to, to [00:21:00] discuss these things with because.

You know, a they're affected on both sides, right? So it's, it's kind of not fair to only give them one side, but also I just think it, um, you know, it gives them, it kind of puts an undue weight on their shoulders where they're already like carrying a weight, you know what I mean? And so, so I just think like, you know, there's other terms that come in here, like triangulation and things like But I think like, those are real things and like When parents do that, it definitely can make it harder on the child than it needs to be.

Joey: If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that in three easy steps, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story and sharing it with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level. It makes your brain healthier according to neurobiologists.

Writing your story is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events In their lives are less depressed or less anxious. They're healthier and they're happier. And finally, it can be really helpful to someone who's maybe on the [00:22:00] same path that you're on, but a bit far behind you, uh, to just hear your advice and to hear your story, since you're going through things that you've been through.

And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com. You can fill out the form on that page that will guide you in telling a short version of your story, and then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story now, you can do so at restored ministry.

com slash story, or just by clicking the link. In the show notes. I totally agree. Yeah. And I love what you said about like the age appropriateness. I know sometimes parents may struggle to know what's age appropriate. Um, one thing that I've heard said in different contexts is, is that you kind of let them ask questions.

You maybe give them basic, simple information. And then if they're curious, you make an opportunity for them to like ask the questions and then you kind of satisfy their curiosity. And then leave it at that. You don't share more than that. I've heard that as kind of a guideline. Is there anything you would tweak or add to

Anthony: that?

I think that's a great guideline. And I also think you have to like kind of moderate your own desire to be heard with balancing that with [00:23:00] like your child's innocence, essentially, you know what I mean? And their, their right to be protected from, you know, what is bad in this world. Um, not that you're going to perfectly insulate them, but I think when you let them know too much, too young, it has kind of this.

You know, or can have this like, I don't know if the right term is eroding, but this effect of where it, you know, it kind of matures them too quickly. And they miss out on some of these experiences and kind of like the carefreeness for lack of a better term of youth that I think is essential. And I think when you put too much in too young of a kid, they grow up too quick and then they spend some of their adulthood, you know, yearning after that.

Carefreeness of childhood that they were somewhat robbed of

Joey: couldn't agree more. And we've seen that a lot, um, with the different young people we've worked with. And it is, it's really a tragedy. And what we've seen too, is that kind of to go a little bit deeper into that whole dynamic of like triangulation or spousification where like one of the parents relies on.

Usually one [00:24:00] of the children, or maybe multiple children in a way that they shouldn't, in a way that their spouse is really supposed to provide the support, but since they're not there, the children are kind of like the next convenient option. And so they, yeah, share things that normally they wouldn't share, they shouldn't share, in an attempt to like, fill that very real need that they have.

And so I like what you said about, you know, kind of moderating your own desire to be heard, or what you said before, like you can take it to another source, which maybe isn't as convenient, like a relative, a sibling, maybe parents, a counselor, a pastor, friend, like someone like that. Um, it's not as convenient because your children are right there.

And you can like share things with them, but I think it does more damage. And I think it's often, um, what I've heard on this topic, we'll link to an episode from the awesome podcast, the place we find ourselves or Adam Young, the therapist, he goes into this a little, in a little bit more depth and he quotes some research and authors.

Um, but this whole idea, like it really can be so lethal because. The way he explains it, and you can jump in here at any point, he says basically like, yeah, mom or dad have like these real, real emotional [00:25:00] needs and then children are just, they're kind of wanting to help because they love their parents. And so they jump in and they listen and they empathize and maybe even like do things in order to help them.

But then they're, yeah, this unhealthy dynamic forms. And then over time, if that continues down that path, you, you know, have this really dysfunctional relationship, this unhealthy relationship that often leads to the. Child needing to pull away because they're like, this isn't healthy, but I don't really know what to do except like maybe leaving.

And then the parent is hurt by that. And then often there's then resentment that seeps in and then the child doesn't really want to talk to the parent so that it destroys the relationship. And that's like over, if you look at it on like a longer time horizon. So we'll link to that episode. He says it more articulately than I can, but, um.

But yeah, I thought that was like really interesting. And I think there's a lot of danger there that parents like really need to be aware of, especially if they're going through these like murky and painful waters of like separation and divorce.

Anthony: And I sympathize like with our parents and with parents in general, because like you said, it's like the people you care about the most are your [00:26:00] kids.

And so it's kind of tempting because they're in it with you, right? Like nobody else is like in the war if you will with you, right? They're in the foxhole with you So it's like very tempting I think to just like unload on them and then you probably feel like well, you know It's like they deserve to hear it.

They deserve to know it this and that but that being said I think You know, kind of, as you mentioned, you're putting your child in a very difficult situation, not only for that short amount of time, but for, in a certain sense, the rest of their life, because they're going to have to navigate this difficult relationship that essentially had too much of a burden on one person.

For years and years.

Joey: Totally. Yeah. And I like what you said, like, I think parents probably feel that burden of like, they deserve to know this, but I think what we would add is like, not all at once and not all the details.

Anthony: Right, right, exactly. And, and I think that like, listen, there's in different stages of youth, we expose kids to different things, to different responsibility, [00:27:00] right?

Like whatever your opinion of sex ed or of the birds and the bees talk is, and who should give it, take that away. But at a certain point, you deem that your child is ready for that, right? At a certain point, you deem that your child is ready to babysit, that they're ready to drive, that they're ready to have a phone, all these different things, right?

That they're ready to stay out past a certain time. And so, it's um, it's a gradual thing. It has to do with maturity with responsibility. But you don't deem it all at once. And sometimes, in these situations, I think our parents just Essentially break a lot of those barriers all at once and on a young mind on a young heart It's a lot to bear at you know, the age of 10 11 12 13 years old.

Joey: I agree I think if you want the best healthiest relationship you can have with your kids and that you need to put a lot of like Thought and prudence into what you're gonna share before you share it. I think that's another good principle of like Before you just kind of shoot from the hip and share something like really give a thought, is this something that they need to know?

And to what level do they need to know it? [00:28:00] And do they need to know it now? Maybe those are good questions.

Anthony: And is it going to be good? You know, good for them. And we're not, I think I can speak for you too, Joe, we're not advocating lying to your kids at all.

Joey: Like

Anthony: we're not supporting that. But I remember this, um, from my Christian moral principles class in college, I think it's from a book called the right and reason.

And this priest said, or I think he was quoting something. I think is. Name was Father Austin Fagothay, and he said, You always have to tell the truth, but you don't always have to tell the truth. You know, in other words, like, when you speak, you always have to say the truth, but you don't always have to speak, right?

Or you don't know what, you can just, you can just kind of say, you know what, this is not For this time.

Joey: Right. Would another version of that being like keeping things more general? Right. Exactly. Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. Um, all right. And I'm curious before we maybe go on in the timeline, how would you describe the marriage, the divorce?

Would you describe it as high conflict or low conflict? And just for everyone's context, who's listening. Uh, high conflict divorces typically involve abuse, [00:29:00] violence, maybe high degrees of dysfunction. And from the children's point of view, the problems are very overt and obvious. And so the children sometimes expect or even want a divorce or separation in those situations.

That's like high conflict where, yeah, there's a real like danger there that some needs to be done. Low conflict involves more covert. problems. Um, in these situations, children typically are like maybe blindsided by the separation of the divorce, or maybe they don't like fully see it coming. And so while they might know that mom and dad are facing some problems or some things that are wrong, uh, they typically wouldn't expect, um, a divorce, at least not like to the degree that you might think.

So I'm just curious from your perspective, maybe like separate both of those instances of when we were younger, when we were older. How would you pack those? Were they high conflict, low conflict, somewhere in between?

Anthony: I think it was kind of somewhere in between. Maybe, I don't know if there's a medium conflict, but kind of like, I think it fluctuated between those two, um, you know, certain periods of like high conflict.

I don't think violence was typically part of the [00:30:00] picture, but there was certainly a lot of like, I don't know, like I would say verbal abuse and just kind of like this overwhelming sense of like disease that kind of pervaded over it. And I think like, I think there was just like this like kind of underwhelming tension, not underwhelming isn't the right, like under, um, like kind of like under the radar tension that like you couldn't exactly quantify, but you could feel, you know, you could maybe put a name on it, but you could feel.

And I think I learned that years later. And so I think I would say, you know, for all those reasons, kind of like it fluctuated, but probably more towards high conflict, like based on the level of dysfunction.

Joey: The way I have seen it. Um, and this is just my perspective, so it's interesting, again, to see, like, even the kind of classification of low conflict versus high conflict might be dependent on the children's, like, perception, to some degree.

And I would say, like, the first separation, for me, was low conflict, because it truly came out of the blue. It blindsided me. It sounds like you were more aware of, like, it leading in that direction. Mom [00:31:00] shared things with you. She didn't with me. And so that like was blindsided me. And so that I would say was a little conflict.

Again, I knew there were some problems, but I didn't ever expect that to happen. Whereas when we were older and there was a second separation, that's when I would categorize that pretty clearly, in my opinion, from my perspective as high conflict, that's kind of, but if we were to average them out, I think like in between or kind of different waves, like you said before, that that would make a lot of sense.

Would you add anything to that?

Anthony: No, I would definitely agree that at the end, like it kind of reached its Peak, you know, at the end of the timeline we mentioned earlier, kind of, that was the worst of the worst, if you will.

Joey: Yeah, no, totally. So I'm curious, this is a kind of a big question, but like, what was life like for you?

You alluded to this already. What was life like for you during the separations, the divorce?

Anthony: Um, it was very difficult. Um, it was kind of hell if I'm being honest, you know, it was, you know, I think as the old, you know, I kind of had a, um, so like, as you know, the early separation [00:32:00] we mentioned, you know, at that age, I kind of felt from that time that I was kind of like the man of the house.

Yeah. And, and so it, that kind of like was hard, you know, obviously at that age, but then, you know, then dad came home and then it kind of was like a little bit of a relinquishing of those responsibilities or those duties. And then it kind of like came back into full. And I think like for me, I was, um.

Growing up I always wanted, like, I was like a fixer, right? I wanted everything to be okay. I was kind of an intermediary. I remember a lot of times, like, you know, kind of getting in between mom and dad and trying to, like, talk them to the other person's side. Um, so I guess, like, the image that I have to describe that time is that, like, your whole life I think it's kind of like a tapestry being built and what I, what I felt like, you know, when I was you know, 23, 24 and their, you know, their marriage was coming apart and [00:33:00] everything was ripped apart.

I felt like it was this tapestry that was my life that was built together and then, and kind of weave together. And then as they got divorced, you know, as it all happened, that it was like ripped, you know, kind of like straight down the middle and all these. different times and years that had been weaved together, um, were just kind of like ripped.

And I think that's a really, you know, a good, and, and, and with that ripping, it makes you broken and feel broken. And so, so like that whole time was like the hardest times of my life, you know, um, and kind of dealing with the fallout. And I think the hardest thing for me was wanting to, you know, when I've like talked to, um, different people about it.

You know, and in a lot of like family systems, there's a like hero child who wants to like save everybody. And I think I like identify with that a lot. And I think that it was hard for me because at that point I realized like I couldn't save everybody. And I felt like. You know, super helpless, you know, and to, [00:34:00] so it's essentially kind of these two things going on.

Like the tapestry of my life is being, or our family's life is being torn apart. And at the same time, like I couldn't do anything about it. And that was like incredibly helpless. And it was the hardest thing for me. It was like to see my siblings suffer and to feel like that. You know, I, I couldn't give them what they need at the time and that, you know, that was, that was difficult and yeah, and I think to, to another degree, kind of to take it to a different point, I think a lot of like how we reference God is, you know, through our, family of origin.

And, you know, a lot of those images we have of God is through that. And so for me, when mom and dad reconciled, I saw that as like a very, a great sign and like a fact, you know, kind of like a sign of that they were back together. And I considered it, you know, as we mentioned earlier, like a small miracle.

And then, so when that kind of fell apart, It was hard, like it, it was hard for me in my faith [00:35:00] because I was like, wait a second, like, I referenced this as like this miracle. And then, you know, it kind of ceased to be. So I, you know, it, it left me questioning God and questioning where he was and, um, you know, how he could let it.

Joey: Yeah. No, I've had similar struggles for sure. And it was almost like, without going into this too much, like each of those instances, like separation one, separation two was kind of like were difficult in their own ways and like were wounding in their own ways and brought their own, like any kind of types of brokenness, though there like was this continuum too along the way.

So that was kind of my experience of it. But man, that makes a lot of sense. I'm curious, like, it sounds like you were very self aware throughout the entire time, which is not true for everyone. I, I'm curious, kind of, was there a point when you realized, like, that all the dysfunction, the divorce, the separation were affecting you negatively, or did you maybe always know that?

Anthony: You know, I think I always knew it, kind of intuitively. I think, like, separation one, I had, I had a [00:36:00] lot of anger in me, and I knew it, you know, kind of as a, that's, you know, it was kind of a, You know, like we said the timeline earlier, but basically like 13 to 15, right? That's time of like in a man's life.

There's like, you know, introducing testosterone and all these different things. So I had a lot of, you know, kind of piss and vinegar and a lot of anger took out a lot of it, like kind of on the sports field and just in like competition, because that was like my, I think my way of regulating myself. And after you're like, yeah, I know I've played sports against you,

Joey: you're always the measured one, never the violent, but,

Anthony: um, but yeah, I think that, you know, that's kind of how it came out then.

And then, and then I think as a young, you know, kind of like, I've seen this in a lot of young people, a lot of siblings, I think like. There's a lot of fluctuation in life and a lot of growth and a lot of changing, right? Your brain doesn't stop growing until you're 25 or 26. [00:37:00] And so I think a lot of times you get to, you know, like after college and you think like everything's going to go like perfectly after that.

And then you realize like, wait, you know, I was actually talking to this with. Some mutual friends of ours recently, it's like, it's like you get to that age and you realize like, wait, you know, I have a lot of like unpacking to do from my, my childhood, my adolescence from my, you know, the family I grew up in.

And it's kind of, I think starts at that point to manifest. So, so I guess it was two folded to answer your question. Like. You know, a lot of anger as a youth and a lot of kind of like hiding from the pain. And then as an adult, um, it's a young adult kind of having that, all that trauma relived and not really being able to hide from it, you know, having to deal with that, I think I dealt then with like a lot of anxiety and a lot of just like a lot of pressure and a lot of stress.

And it just, you know, it manifested itself in a lot of different ways.

Joey: Thanks for sharing. I, uh, yeah, I know you've been through a lot, for [00:38:00] sure. I think, I think there's a special, like, for any firstborns listening, I think there's a special, like, burden, pain, and I don't know what the other words would be, that the oldest two carry, like you said.

Especially if dad left the house, which is statistically, I think that's, like, the most common occurrence. Then you step into that role. And I'd imagine whether it's a Boy or girl, they'd be kind of forced into helping around the house. And then I imagine, yeah, if like, if mom were to leave and yeah, that would kind of be a different dynamic of especially the oldest girl.

I don't know how that would play out. But anyway, that the oldest, I think definitely carries like a big, big burden and definitely saw you carry that over the years, which I appreciate, by the way. I know it's like a, it's really like a lose lose situation. Like in the military, they, when they're doing training with like, especially like special people in special operations.

And I think probably like. General like soldiers Marines and things like that They put them in these scenarios that are a little lose lose situations where their only intent is like to humble them and to teach them that sometimes like you can't win and sometimes you have to just like minimize your losses and that's the way I see the older children or any [00:39:00] child like being put into some of these like parental roles Is it's like, okay, there's some level of necessity here.

Like if that doesn't happen, then what's going to happen to the family and the kids. But at the other end, it's like, this really isn't good for them. This is, they're not meant to fill this role. They're not meant to like, especially for a long period of time, they're not meant to like be this type of person.

And so, yeah, I, um, definitely I'm sorry you had to go through all that, but, um, does that resonate with you?

Anthony: Yeah, it definitely does. And I, I appreciate your kind words, Joe. Yeah, I think it, it definitely does. Like I definitely have. You know, felt the burden of being in the firstborn. And I think, especially, you know, I think there's, you know, generally a burden being the firstborn, but in these situations, it kind of takes on a different meaning and it kind of, you know, really puts you in some of those, like almost, it feels like do or die situations.

You know what I mean? And that the definition of lose, lose. Is so fitting because like a lot of these situations when you're pitted against one or one of the parents [00:40:00] or in between both of the parents, right? Like a, the definition of a dilemma is a dilemma. It's between two things. You know, that is essentially what this is.

You're between the two things of your parents. And it's like, if you choose your, you know, the old saying, you're damned if you do, and you're damned, if you don't like, it's a bunch of those situations, just kind of like a continuous line of them. You just keep choosing and you pick one, you're damned. And you pick the other, you're damned, at least in your parents eyes.

And it's just like, it's the lose, lose. And so I think like, yeah, I think it is like, I feel very deeply when I see children in these situations and, you know, particularly the oldest, because I know that, you know, they carry a lot of weight and that a lot of like unfair things are put on them. And in a certain sense, like they're robbed of their, of what should be happening that age, like their childhood, their adolescence, their teenage years.

Where they should be, you know, not thinking of, you know, like I need to take care of all these things or take care of mom or take care of dad or take care of my [00:41:00] siblings, you know, or maybe I should go home now because my younger siblings like are missing me instead of just like being carefree and present in what they're doing.

Joey: Yeah. No, it's a totally different type of like upbringing

Anthony: that, uh, that really is.

Joey: Yeah, that it really does, like, stunt your growth in a lot of ways. There's some benefits that come from what I've seen, like some virtues that can develop, um, but I think it does stunt your growth in a lot of ways. And I experienced some of that as well.

And yeah, I remember a lot of people making the observation about, like, us, especially you and me. Um, I'd imagine that someone goes down the line even further too, but just, like, being, like, more mature for our age and that. And the one level you think of it as a compliment, but when you kind of dig into it, it's like, wait, wait, why, why are they more mature for the age?

It's like, well, actually that's not a great thing.

Anthony: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's funny you bring that up. Cause that was a common thing said about us. And at the time you think like, yeah, I'm so mature, but it's, you know, when you look at the reasoning, it's not as great.

Joey: No, totally. And I remember like getting along better with like older.

kids like even your friends or even [00:42:00] adults than I did like with kids my own age in some respect, um, because I could, I don't know if I could relate with them or yeah, there was like that. It felt like that we were kind of forced to that level. So without belaboring that too much more, um, I'm curious when it came to, yeah, just, you mentioned anxiety, you mentioned like pressure, stress, but were there any other emotional problems that you experienced through, through all that?

Anthony: How much time you got now? I'm just, I'm just good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I love her. Shout out to Sarah. Um, yeah, shout out to Sarah and Dr. Andrew. They're, they're a podcast with you is my favorite one.

Joey: They're great. And I know that they love you. They adore you, admire you.

Anthony: They're awesome. Um, so I think like.

Yeah, I think anxiety being the big one and I think, I want to be careful how I say this, but in, in those, you know, in those, in the situation of a family, like the father, like the role of the man, right, is to be the provider and the protector. And so when that, when that is [00:43:00] kind of inverted and you feel like you're protecting yourself from the protector.

That becomes an entirely different situation, and I think it's, like, mentally really hard to wrap your, wrap your head around that. And so, like, um, I think that that is a lot of, like, what I struggled with, is that, like, you know, and there's almost, like, some betrayal there, and some just questioning of, like, oh my gosh, like, like, wait a second, you know what I mean?

This person who is supposed to be protecting me is like, this is like, like, I feel like I'm having to protect people from this person and, um, and so that is like a very vulnerable thing. I think that, you know, definitely struggled a lot with anxiety and, but even I would say a lot of anxiety was kind of centered around like performance of, you know, I'm, you know, having to achieve a certain level to basically to get noticed.

Or to, to be loved and not that, not that my parents ever put me on that. I don't, I don't think that [00:44:00] was ever their intent. And I don't think that they even were, I don't think that was anywhere in their intention. I think it's just like when you're in a tough situation like this. You just think that like, Oh, like I better do something to get noticed and to, to be appreciated.

And so like, I, you know, kind of ended up in a lot of like, you know, sports or academics or things like being like, just driven to this like level of like high achievement. And then like that kind of not being that. Satisfying, you know what I mean? And it's almost like, was like, you know, like anxiety, you know, achieve the result and then it's just like onto the next thing, you know what I mean?

And so like that was, it was, and has been kind of a struggle for me and kind of to disentangle my identity from my performance, um, because those are two entirely different things and don't affect each other.

Joey: That's really good. Like what you do is not who you are. It doesn't measure your value, your worth.

Yeah, that's really good. If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more [00:45:00] resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed.

To help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restored ministry. com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.

Anthony: And can I say something else about that joke?

Like, I just, uh, and to, to any, you know, I know that this is a highly listened to podcast, that there's a lot of kids, you know, and parents listening to this. And I would just say to them, you know, don't like, don't equate your worth. You know, it's, it's good to be a high achiever. It's good to do the best you can and everything.

Right. But I think it's either, it's somewhere in the wisdom literature to sound, it's like, whatever you do, then do that with all your heart. Which I, I believe wholeheartedly in, but I also think like that you, you know, you are not what you do. You are not your GPA. You are not your batting average. You are not any of those things.

Like you're loved by God [00:46:00] just because who you are, just because you are. And so like in these situations where you're, you know, your parents, your parents love seems very conditional because, you know, you're, you might be, you know, kind of a victim of triangulation. You might be in between, you know, in between those two parents.

But just know that, like, there is a love for you that is not conditional, and that's God's love, right? And that, that's not dependent on what you do, or not dependent on if you do what your parent wants you to do. That is, that is, love is free. And, um, just to, like, when you are, you know, caught in this web of kind of dependent love and people trying to buy love and things like that.

Just try to turn yourself the best you can to the, to the love of God in the way you understand that. And maybe you don't, but maybe, you know, all it really takes is just kind of just closing your eyes and just trying to turn yourself to him and just say like, God, like, I need your love. Let me feel your love.

Joey: Yeah, because if he's all powerful and unknowing, then he's going to be able to hear you in that moment and help you [00:47:00] too. So, no, I know there's a lot there and I know a lot of people do struggle in that relationship with God with me. We can go a little deeper into it in a little bit. But I, um, I think it's a really important point that I think by its very nature, uh, separation and divorce point to like the conditionality of love because it's like, Okay, you're on your wedding day, you're promising your love to be essentially unconditional.

And then, and feel free to disagree with that. And I think there's an importance between like unconditional love and unconditional maybe acceptance. Because we never like loving someone according to the kind of definition from St. Thomas Aquinas is like willing the good of the other, right? And so the question becomes like, what is that good for in the particular situation?

And how do I in my role do that? How do I will that? Love is not letting someone abuse you. That's not love. You could still love them in that moment or not. Maybe that moment's not the right word. And in that situation where like, you're maybe putting a restraining order in place or you're, um, you know, calling the police or whatever that looks like, right.

[00:48:00] That's actually might be doing what's best for them, but it's not allowing like any. Sort of behavior so I think that's kind of an important like side note when we talk about love because some people maybe think of love It's like accepting like any sort of behavior, but I think there is this like underlying message that like love is very fragile Love is very conditional love can end at any moment when you see your parents love shatter before you even if there were like decent Reasons for it for their togetherness to be like paused or separated.

Does that make sense?

Anthony: It makes total sense. Yeah. And I, I actually, I think that was kind of trying to articulate that before and I did a poor job and I think you did way better just, um, yeah, just this sense of love being kind of finite and kind of, you know, performance based, you know what I mean? Cause when you see your parents getting divorced.

Because, you know, one of them is behaving in a certain way, you start to think like, Oh, well, you know, if I am the best version of myself, am I going to essentially, you know, is somebody going to divorce me from love? You know, am I going to be [00:49:00] unlovable? And, um, and I think that's. I think all of us struggle with that to some degree, but especially kids, kids in this situation, because you're, you know, you see it crumble before your eyes.

And so it's hard, like, I know personally in my own life, you know, that, that unconditional love that I just spoke about, it has been very hard to accept God's unconditional love. Because, you know, it was not my experience of, And, um, so that's, that's a struggle. And so I think you really highlight something very true is because, you know, we experienced, we witnessed this kind of, what we understand is love or what we see is supposed to be love, like within a family, and then that ends.

or that is broken down, then we think, like, you know, we experience love as finite, or we experience it being cut off based on your, like, someone's failings, essentially. So then we are, you know, essentially, like, we feel that love is going to be taken away from us at any moment.

Joey: Yeah. And I mean, it makes it really hard to love in any relationship, including your [00:50:00] relationship with God, but also friendships, romantic relationships, like go down the whole list.

So let's go there for a little bit. Um, the relationship with God, I'm curious, kind of the particular struggles there for you, you mentioned them a little bit, but if you'd go deeper and then kind of, how did you work through that?

Anthony: Um, I'm still working through it, but you know, um, I think like trying to, you know, like my focus is trying to accept.

That unconditional love and to know that like, it's there. I didn't do anything to earn it and I can't do anything to lose it. Right? Like, I'm going to say that again. Like it's there. It's always been there for me. I didn't earn it. I can't earn it. And I, but that also means I can't lose it. And so I, I think that's like both beautiful and hard to accept for someone kind of, you know, who comes from a broken family because you're like, wait, love is conditional.

Like I always had to do things to get love, you know? So I think that is one thing. And I also think that kind of, you know, so accepting that love has been difficult. You know, one thing I've been kind of realizing is that [00:51:00] essentially in life, life is comes down to like what identity you accept. And there's this identity we all have from God, you know, from either as either like a son or a daughter and that is loved unconditionally by him.

And then there's these false identities that are, you know, pushed by the world or the devil or whoever you want to attribute it to, you know, I think it's essentially, you know, the devil through the world, but we are given these like lies about ourselves and one of, you know, one of your guests. Dr. Bob Schutz talks about this a lot, like, you know, these lies, like, kind of entrap themselves deep in our hearts, and then we kind of live out of this lie about ourselves and about our identity.

And I think, like, essentially what life comes down to is, like, which identity you choose to live out of, you know, either the true identity or the false identity or the lie. Um, I know one struggle for me has been A, to, like, accept that identity from God, and then B, to live out of that. And, um, you know, I think, you know, [00:52:00] You know, if you look at our world, you kind of just see, you know, a bunch of people struggling with identity and looking into all these different areas to try to find it and try to, you know, or in some cases craft it or change it or, you know, with surgery or whatever, what have you.

But like, essentially what we have is, you know, we have an identity from God that is not dependent on anything that we do. You know, it's just essentially like. Unconditional love. And that is the one we are all thirsting for, but in a certain sense is the hardest one to live into because it requires the most detachment from the lies that we have been told.

Yeah.

Joey: No, there's a lot there to unpack. I think it's hard to like figure that out all on your own. And I know we're going to get into kind of ways in which you've sought help, but I think it's like really important to like seek help for that from a mentor, maybe a therapist, spiritual director. Someone like that because I think that's one of the things I'm definitely no like academic when it comes to like identity So I can't say fully understand all of it But I think one truth is that your [00:53:00] identity is not something that you necessarily like create on your own It's like something that's given to you Um, you can think of a child like receiving a name from a parent, right?

Like they're literally in a very real way infusing an identity on you. And so I think like in a similar way Maybe there's some instances where we can kind of like create our own identity or like reach or discover an identity, but I think it's always in relationship with like another person that we do that.

And I think that's a really important component. Cause I think if you're just like sitting there kind of twiddling your thumbs being like, you know, I'm loved, I'm loved, I'm loved, or like whatever other kind of characteristic of your identity that you're trying to like fully like accept or embody, I think you can, it can be quite fruitless in my opinion.

If you don't like experience it on like almost like a, maybe bodily level isn't. The right term, but like in real life, tangible, tangible, not just in your head. Cause like you hear all these people in like the self help, like personal development space, you're like all into like these affirmations or like, you know, they look in the mirror and they tell themselves things and maybe there's a point to it.

I've never done all that stuff, but it's almost like

Anthony: [00:54:00] Superman pose in the bathroom,

Joey: but there's like two things to it. Like, it's like, one, is there any evidence to back up? what you're saying, that's really important, because otherwise you're like, kind of delusional and fooling yourself. Um, and two, you know, is there, like, I think it's better for someone else to say that stuff to you than you to say it to yourself.

And maybe there's not someone in your life who can say that, and so you need to, you know, kind of remind yourself of it, or maybe other people have said it, so you're reminding yourself of what they have said. So I think there can be some merit to it, but I think, yeah, I think it's really important to have that, like, other person who's kind of, you know, Somewhat infusing or imparting your identity.

That's why I'm such a big fan of like mentors. I think that's like, so, so helpful and fruitful.

Anthony: Yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's a very good point. You know, we're made for relationship and that is, that is important and it kind of plays into, you know, some of these relationships have given us these.

you know, probably a combination of truth and lies about ourselves, about our identity. And so it's kind of, I think as an adult, it's kind of like choosing the relationships and [00:55:00] also choosing to like, try to, you know, engage in the relationships, which help you to live into the true identity of yourself, you know?

And so one of those relationships would be, you know, with God and trying to say, okay, like God. You know, there was this really holy priest I know, and he used to say when he was giving people, his name was Father Bernard Geiger, he died this past year, but he used to tell people to pray this prayer, and it was very simple, and he would give it at the end of confession.

He would say, when you're doing your penance after confession, he would say, ask God, God, who are you and who am I? You know, it's a question of identity, and so, like, when you start in his, what he was saying is that, when you start to understand who God is. Then you take on a different identity yourself because that God's identity affects your identity.

And so when you understand who God is and how much he loves you, that is going to help you answer the question of, you know, God, who are you and who am I? That is going to help you answer the question of who am I.

Joey: Dang, that's good. [00:56:00] I like that. You mentioned before like watching your siblings struggle has been the hardest thing.

I'm curious what you meant by that and if there are any particular like instances where that was kind of Maybe grueling or kind of hit you in the face.

Anthony: Yeah. Um, I mean a lot. Um, but yeah, just kind of seeing how, you know, I kind of, you know, being the oldest and being in the position I thought I was, you know, I was in a, you know, kind of in a sibling plus position, maybe you would call it like I felt like in a, you know, I don't think it was healthy in a lot of ways, but I think I was in this kind of position of like a sibling parent.

And so to see, you know, all of us. struggle of you guys, I should say struggle with the divorce. That was, that was very difficult. And then also, you know, to feel that I couldn't help it, you know, I think because of how the divorce affected me so deeply, I felt that I couldn't be what I needed to be to the rest of the family and that, you know, and I felt kind of in that time, like I wasn't what I needed to be [00:57:00] for all you guys.

And that, so that was probably the hardest part of all that for me is I wish that I could like just, you know, take away all that pain and to accept that I couldn't, um, was like really, really awful, you know, and I honestly, I still struggle with that. You know, not that I should have been able to prevent it, but I just, I wish that it affected me less.

And so then I was able to help more, you know?

Joey: Yeah, no, I hear you. I definitely felt that. And it's humbling to see like your own limits, especially when you're trying to like love and help other people. And I definitely had many. situations like you described where I wish I could have done the same for you and for our siblings.

Yeah, it's just such a sucky situation to go through. And for the parents too, just to make sure I'm not like, yeah, we, we don't like, we have a heart for our parents for sure. We love them dearly. And yeah, even if there's struggles or even if there's things there that, you know, make the relationships challenging at times, every relationship has their challenges certainly.

But um, yeah, it's, it's just a hard [00:58:00] thing for anyone and all of us to go through. So, but yeah, but I think in a particular way, the children. Cause so often they get ignored or the pain is not even like acknowledged, um, very rarely understood and given like the space that it deserves, which is what we're trying to do here.

But yeah, that, uh, I definitely can relate to it, but yeah. Any thoughts?

Anthony: Yeah, no, I've often thought that like in a divorce, particularly. That to some degree, like, you know, like there's a saying, you know, essentially like you were referencing earlier with the lose, lose, but in a divorce, like, I think that nobody really wins in a divorce, but just to a certain degree, the parents get some change and sometimes it is good change.

I, I do believe in the case of our parents, it was good change. In fact, for both of them, like, that's my personal perspective. Um, but. I think particularly, even though that is the case, I just think it's rare that it's better for the kids. Like, I think it's kind of the kids are particularly in a lose lose situation.

And, um, so I think that, that's [00:59:00] like very difficult as a child. It's cause, you know, we mentioned a lot of these situations where you're kind of a rock in a hard place. And that leads to this, like, I think one of the worst feelings you can feel as a human is helplessness, you know, and I think it leads to a lot of helplessness as a child.

Joey: I'd agree. I'd agree with that. Yeah. You don't quite know what to do with it. I want to get into like that, maybe happier, the better part of the story. But before we do, I'm curious if there were anything you wanted to add in terms of like struggles with bad habits or relationship struggles, especially. in romantic relationships.

I know there's probably a ton that we can say here, but yeah, just curious if there's anything you want to highlight.

Anthony: Yeah. Um, I, I definitely think, you know, I, um, you know, I've struggled with a lot of things. Um, but you know, I mentioned some of those before. Um, I think, you know, loss is one thing I struggle with because I, I think like in a lot of these situations.

You know, we're looking for escape and, you know, lust offers the allure of that escape. Um, but it's, you know, essentially it's at its core, it's a [01:00:00] lie and it leaves you, you know, and the interesting thing, I saw a quote from St. Josemaría Escriva and he said, you know, after essentially like, You know, essentially after like giving into lust or sensual pleasure, like what loneliness after?

And it's so true that it's like, if you think of your life and you think of a time that you gave into lust or use it as like a medication, like try to think of a time when you felt happier after. And the truth is you won't because you weren't. And so I think that, you know, that has been something I think that a lot of people in general struggle with, but a lot of people in these situations.

But I would just encourage anyone struggling with that, that just know it's not, it's not your identity and it's also not, you know, it's not, um, it's not a cure and it's not helping you. It's just like making you more lonely. And I, so that's what I would say to like, um, the question of struggles and then to the question of like relationships.

I, I do think that it has definitely affected me a lot in, um, my romantic relationships and, you know, I'm, I'm 35, I'm unmarried and I think that's, [01:01:00] It's definitely part of the equation. Um, I think when you, you know, for me, like seeing, like seeing all that we have that we've mentioned in this podcast, it's, it's hard to like really kind of like, or it has been hard for me to really want to like commit to love and commit to opening yourself so much to another person that, um, you show them your flaws and you show them what's broken in you, um, because you also have seen.

You know the the negative effects of that and so so that has been very a struggle for me I'm trying i'm still trying to work through it still trying to essentially, you know Help god or let god help me through it. Um, and so that's definitely been a struggle and I think it is for You know, I see that trend in a lot of people who've been in similar situations.

Joey: No, thanks for sharing all that. And yeah, just one note on the whole last thing. I, uh, this, you guys have probably heard me talk about this in the show before, but Dr. Patrick Carnes is an expert on sexual compulsion, addiction, and He found that 89 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction [01:02:00] come from a broken family with what he called a disengaged family.

89 percent almost 90%, which is so wild. So I think it is such a common thing on that note. We do have a, I just want to give a plug for, we do have a podcast series on that topic. It's called healing sexual brokenness. We'll link to that in the show notes. Definitely encourage you guys. So check it out if you're in any of the podcast apps, if you go to our show and you just search healing, sexual brokenness, you'll find that there too.

But, um, it's such a big problem. I think all of us at some level or the majority of us have dealt with it. And so, um, yeah, thanks for bringing that up kind of switching gears a little bit and getting toward the end of our show. I'm curious, kind of when did you decide to ask for help and what did that look like?

Anthony: It took a lot of different forms. Um, you know, I, I've done different things in my life, like spiritual direction. Um, I've done some counseling. I've done some. trauma therapy. And then I've done other things that are kind of, you know, less traditional. Um, I did, so one thing that has helped me a lot, actually, maybe the most has been something called functional [01:03:00] neurology.

Essentially it's a treatment for like brain injuries. And so a lot of people who struggle with anxiety, even in a lot of addictions. Or excuse me, well, it's certainly addiction, but a lot of definitions for certain, you know, mental illnesses or certain things carries the designation that, oh, this is often, this is, this often ensues after a head injury.

So, so something I kind of in a just synopsis, I had a lot of head injuries, a lot of concussions. And, um, I, and I tried a lot through sports. Yeah, through sports, car accidents, things like that. And I tried a lot of different things. And, um, I, you know, through a friend, I ended up trying this thing called functional neurology, which is 0%, like has anything to do with counseling.

It's just essentially. Physical therapy for your brain. And I found that like emotionally and like physically for me, that has had the greatest effect in terms of like, you know, helping me improve, you know, how I felt and how I [01:04:00] behaved and things like that. And so like I would, I would encourage anybody, um, who, you know, there's providers all across America, but I think oftentimes we take all this.

And we think, okay, if I go in a room and I sit with somebody and I talk about it, it will change. And, and certain therapy is great. And I've had a lot of great experiences with therapy. I've also had a lot of terrible experiences with therapy. And I think a lot of people would echo that. So I think like there is this element of, you know, that therapy can fix everything.

In our, in our time, you know, like you hear all these commercials for better health and all these things. And where I think it's like very important, it's not the only thing. And so like, we are, you know, we are mind, body and soul. And, you know, the mind is, is just one of those. So, you know, you can use the body and fix the body and try to, or I should say, try to heal the body.

And so that has been something that is like, really helped me. Physical activity has really helped me, you know, working out is kind of a great way [01:05:00] to get unstuck. Doing some cardio, things like that are really good to kind of, you know, help yourself move along in life and get past some of these things that have become hurdles in your life, in my opinion.

I also, you know, I dealt with a really good trauma therapist, Margaret Vasquez. So I know you've had on the show and, um, you know, she does trauma therapy and that, that was, that was very helpful for me. So things like that, um, I think are good things. And I also think this. You know, it's, it's not a one size fits all for everybody, everybody, you know, just because something worked for someone else, it won't necessarily work for you.

And I think that it's important to kind of, you know, get to know yourself, you know, your struggles and kind of, um, in a patient way, you know, work on improving yourself. And essentially, I think that's what, you know, brings peace. And it's important to not have the attitude of like, I'm going to fix myself.

But I think it's the attitude of I'm going to open myself up so that God can heal [01:06:00] me. Cause you're, you're not a, you're not a machine to be fixed. You're a person to be loved.

Joey: Totally. And yeah, I think that that's a really good distinction about like how we're not machines. I. I can't say I fully understand it, but I've heard it said that, like, we don't actually solve our problems, we outgrow them.

And I, again, I don't totally, fully understand that, but, um, but I think there's a lot of truth to it, how, you know, when, yeah, whether it's, like, even a physical injury or something, um, we maybe don't go in and, like, fix the muscle tissue necessarily, maybe there's some instances where you do that, but you kind of, like, Build up the muscle around it and try to get like your body in a healthier space to where like you're better and healthier.

And that kind of like resolves the issue, but it's not necessarily like, yeah, just tighten this bolt and we're all done. That's not how we work. So I don't know. Yeah. I have to give that more thought, but I heard that said, and I think there's some truth to it. I'm curious how, um. If there are any other like tools or tactics, books, podcasts, anything else, events that you have made use of that have been maybe the most helpful in your own healing [01:07:00] journey of becoming like a better, stronger you.

Anthony: Yeah, a lot of things. Um, one thing I'm trying to think, um, I, I really liked Dr. Jordan Peterson. I think he has a lot of good things to say. So he has a lot of, you know, videos on YouTube shorts. You mentioned Sarah Swofford. Um, she's, she's kind of helped me a lot. And she has, uh, she has a bunch, I feel like her talks are pretty wide ranging, but she has a book called emotional virtue.

Which is good. So those are just a few resources that that are helpful. I also think there's a um, I'm kind of fascinated by the connect, you know, the mind body connection, you know, like we're we're not just our mind We're not just our body. We're the Unity and duality as it, you know, they say in philosophy.

And so I think it's interesting how, you know, you can like the body really affects, you know, the mind and the soul and vice versa. And so like, like for instance, one thing, you know, I, you know, I had a very, uh, hard winter. I was in an accident and, um, with my sister [01:08:00] who, and we were both hurt pretty badly.

And so. I was, you know, not feeling the greatest at all. And this one thing I found by this doctor, by Dr. Andrew Huberman, his name is, he's a neuroscientist from, from Stanford. He has this tip, you know, he kind of has his morning routine out there, but he has this tip of like getting into morning sunlight within half an hour of when you wake up every day.

And so for Lent last year, I did that every day. And it really helped like how I felt. Um, and it kind of was what I needed at that time. So I think looking for little things and trying little things like that that are going to help you is like, is really important. And I also think like one thing that I've noticed in my life is something might help for a while and then it might stop helping.

And that doesn't mean you're not doing it right. It just, you might've done all you can in that area. So don't just kind of like try to do it better or more perfect. If you've kind of exhausted it, just you, it could mean that it's time to try something else.

Joey: Totally. No, that's great advice. And, um, I love that connection you're making between like the [01:09:00] body and your emotions.

Cause on so many levels, like, yeah, your, your emotions like happen inside your body. And so there's certainly a connection there. It's not just like this random thing that happens like in your mind or some imaginary place. It's like very much so like a bodily based thing, especially anxiety. And, um, you certainly, you can feel it in your chest and your throat.

Like it's certainly like, there's certainly a connection there. I've found similar benefits. It seems like the kind of healthier and the more fit I get. Get the more calm and peaceful I am. And so I think there's something to be said about that, which I know it's can be hard for people to get started there, but if you can figure out some sort form of exercise that you really enjoy, that you kind of look forward to doing that could help you.

And it doesn't need to be complex, it can be simple. Um, that can really help you get in. You know, much better head space and if you even feel better emotionally, not just like physically, if you like me come from a broken family, you've probably experienced a lot of difficult emotions and it's easy to deal with them in unhealthy ways.

But one healthy habit that's helped me working out consistently and eating how my body was made to be fed. It keeps my buddy healthy. And the [01:10:00] endorphins helped me feel happier and better navigate tough emotions. But I know it's not easy to start exercising or to be more consistent with it. You might be thinking, I don't know what I'm doing.

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Anthony: Yeah, and here, you know, that's a great point, Joe. And like, and a really good, honestly, one of the best things and a really good place to [01:11:00] start is something that most people can do.

And it's just something that's very regulating. And Margaret Vespa has taught me this is just taking a long walk and just kind of, you know, just letting your thoughts. Um, wander and just like process what's going on within your life. And the act of walking, you know, you're using your whole body, you're using essentially kind of all your senses.

You are, it's very integrating for your body, and there's been so many times in the last couple years. Where I feel like very kind of frustrated or aggravated, very emotional. And I go for a long walk and I, and I'm talking like usually like half an hour to like an hour and by the end of it, I come home and I feel in a certain sense, like I worked out a lot of what was bothering me.

And, um, and I think it's because, you know, because you're moving, you're using your whole body and it's also giving your mind a chance to essentially like kind of run through or walk through everything that's going on.

Joey: That's really good. A similar process from my understanding of like [01:12:00] neurobiology happens when we sleep.

Like our brains kind of like process things and like file them away. Um, kind of like if you've seen the movie inside out, like that's essentially what happens when we sleep. Um, like our memories are being like filed away and long term memory and things like that. I don't understand all the ins and outs of the science, but that I I've heard.

Yeah. It's been helpful for me to walking and kind of like moving your body. Cause I think, especially today, like in years past, like we were so active as like, as humans, now we're just so sedimentary, like we just sit around computers and. And I think it's having like really detrimental effects on so many levels.

So I love that. I love what you said. And no, I think that just like this whole body based thing is like kind of that, that whole quote, um, get out, you know, like mind over matter. You've heard people say mind over matter. I've heard people say like body over mind. Where like, if you kind of like get outside of your mind and into your body, like there's something really good there that it's actually helpful in healing.

And that's like something, especially in moments where I've been the most anxious or even like sad or depressed, like that is incredibly helpful in healing. The other thing I was going to mention there too, is just [01:13:00] how I've been learning this more and more, whether it's through from guys like Huberman or others, um, like Dr.

Peter Attia, or I was recently watching this, um, series on Disney plus called Limitless. It's with Chris Hemsworth and. He has all these hacks, um, health experts, um, like Dr. Peter Atiyah, um, on the show kind of talking about like health and wellbeing. And one of the things I've learned from them is like this sleep is literally the foundation of health.

Like it's literally the foundation of all health. Like the other things are so sleep is like everything. More or less, and then you have like nutrition, and then you, which includes like drinking water, and eating like clean healthy foods, and then you have exercise. So like exercise is like super super helpful, and I'm a big proponent of it, but like we need to make sure we're getting those other two things right, especially sleep.

So if there's only one thing you can get right right now, if you're listening to this and you're like, I'm overwhelmed, I can't do everything, try to get your sleep down. And that's going to help you. And you might need to exercise or like healthy eating to do that, which is, it's all, it all works together.

But I think there's some to be said like of that being like the focal point. Cause once you get that right, [01:14:00] your body and your brain can actually like heal itself, and then you can get into this better spot emotionally, and then you'll be able to, you know, maybe even further hone in like your diet, like what you're eating and the quality of what you're eating.

And then from there, if you get those things dialed in and you add exercise, that's like the golden combo. So that's just wanted to throw that out. Cause it's been helpful for me in case that's helpful for anyone listening.

Anthony: Yeah. And I would just add to that, that it's kind of, um, like a snowball effect, or it has kind of an avalanche effect that once you start doing a little bit in one area, you know, it, um, it produces the dopamine that your body is looking for.

And, you know, essentially you want more dopamine, you go back to it and you get healthier and healthier. And so I think that is, it's like a very healthy process. So, so like sometimes all it just takes is just going to the gym once or going on a walk or going on a run or just. playing a sport, just doing something to move your body and then just trying to stack those days on top of each other.

And eventually you're going to feel a lot healthier. Like no one, have you ever had anybody heard anybody say like, man, I really wish I didn't go to the gym today. Like, no, you [01:15:00] had like, you haven't. And, and I think, and there's a reason for that.

Joey: That's really good. Let's talk a little bit about therapy. So I know you have some thoughts and.

opinions on therapy. So I wanted to make sure we spent a little bit of time talking about that. So you mentioned that you found help through therapy, especially trauma therapy in particular, but, um, yeah, what, what's maybe some of the nuance and any guidance for anyone listening on this topic as well?

Anthony: Um, I, yeah, so I, I have a lot to say about this, but I'll try to keep it short.

I think a couple of things, I think one important thing is fit, um, with you and a therapist. I think another thing is. It's not kind of that the goal of therapy is to help your life and it's not to like center your life around the therapy Which is something I've kind of struggled with and then I also think that I think that essentially a good therapist is someone who's gonna Help you and is going to like refuse to like make decisions for you Or refuse to kind of, for lack of a better term, like kind of boss you around too much.

You know, um, I think [01:16:00] that especially as an adult, like you, you want someone who's going to empower you more to like, to, to live your own life and live it all. So I've, I've had, honestly, I've had kind of like a, almost like a 50, 50 spread of good experiences. and bad experiences. So some people have been very helpful, some people have been almost, like, hurtful.

But I think it's important to talk to somebody. So try it. If that person doesn't work, well, you can try another person. You know what I mean? Or try a different type of therapist or a different type of person to talk to. I also think, like, you know, having other people who you're not paying to talk to is helpful, and who you trust, and who know you.

Because I think a lot of times the struggle for therapists is like, you know, They, they've talked to you a couple of times. They don't really know you. And, you know, it's important to have a balance of that and people who know you and have seen you, you know, grow up or, or know your life and know who you are.

Um, and sometimes they can better advise you on what you need to do. But I, and I'm not, like, I don't mean to say this to dissuade therapy, but I. I [01:17:00] mean to say that it's one tool in, in a, you know, a whole tool belt of different tools. And so I think sometimes there's too much emphasis given on it. Um, and, and in particular, the, you know, there's this therapy, cognitive behavior therapy, which is essentially like the idea that if you think differently, you change your life.

And that is true. If you think differently, you do change your life. However, most of us think a certain way for a reason, and it's not just a matter, or as simple always as just changing our thoughts. So sometimes we have to change our behavior. And actually, like, so I've heard it said that the easiest way to change behavior is to change identity.

And so that goes back to what we were saying earlier, like, living into, like, your true identity, as, you know, a child of God, and as someone who's loved unconditionally, can really help you change your behavior. More than anything.

Joey: That's really good. You made me think of something Dr. Greg Bitaro said in a recent episode.

He was talking about how just kind of this whole day of like talk therapy is not enough. And I forget [01:18:00] exactly what, what words he put to that. But he did talk about like the role of our subconscious and the like kind of lame person understanding that I have of it is that the way that we think, the way that we act, the way that we feel is a byproduct of like what's in our subconscious.

So, like, that's essentially controlling our life, and there's a quote from, uh, this Swiss psychologist that we talked about in that episode who said something along the lines of, like, Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will rule your life, and you will call it fate. And so, basically, the idea is that, like, that Like you're saying, I don't think, like, changing the way you think isn't as easy as it sounds.

That's the whole point I'm making, because what happens in life is, like, we go through these experiences, we kind of sustain these wounds, and they get lodged in our subconscious, like, below our conscious minds, the thing that we're, like, actively thinking about. And then they, those things, kind of like the mass below the tip of an iceberg, are there influencing the way, again, we think, the way we feel, the way we act.

And so, if we are just [01:19:00] staying on the level of, like, our, you know, trying to think differently on a conscious level, and we never go, kind of, into that mucky water of, like, the subconscious, and, like, figure out, like, well, why do we Think and feel that way. Or, you know, is there like trauma there? That's literally affecting us on a physiological level.

That's maybe preventing us from thinking and feeling in a different way. Then we're always going to be stuck in it. That's, that's my perspective. And so John Paul II actually in love and responsibility to everyone familiar, John Paul II, um, wrote this book when he was, uh, like a priest, a professor called love and responsibility on like relationships and sexual, like morality, things like that.

And he. Um, in the end of that book, Dr. Bitaro was teaching me that he had like this whole part about the subconscious because around that time when he was writing it, Sigmund Freud was very popular. And so Freud like really emphasized like the role of the subconscious. So JP2 actually took that and he kind of emphasized how, no, like we need to kind of take what's in the subconscious out, objectivize it, meaning like we need to inspect it and look at it and understand it in order to [01:20:00] be able to act, think, and feel differently.

Putting some of my own words to that. But, um, but I thought that was interesting. I haven't read Love and Responsibility cover to cover. I've read parts of it, but do you recall that from reading it? And, uh, any further thoughts? I

Anthony: actually, I don't recall that, but it sounds, it sounds very interesting. I want to go back and read it now.

Joey: Yeah. And I don't know the pages or else I would have said it, but I think it's towards the end and I was talking to Jackie about it and it was, um, found. So you can do that if you'd like. So, um, yeah, any final thoughts on that? And then the other question I had for you was just, yeah, I guess after kind of going through this process of like healing and growth, if, uh, yeah, how your life might look differently now, just in order to encourage people to push through the pain and the discomfort that often hits you in the face when you're trying to heal and to grow and to.

Be better, stronger. So I'm just curious if you have, um, yeah, just if you would kind of contrast how life was and how it is now, though, we're always a work in progress.

Anthony: We love comfort to a large degree. Right. And part of us, you know, is like our brain's [01:21:00] job is to keep us safe.

Yeah.

Anthony: And so a lot of times that our brain tells us is, you know, don't do anything scary or different or change or, you know, or change anything.

And that is the temptation for those of us. who have really been, you know, in, in these difficult situations because, you know, we, you know, change is scary and change has, you know, been very hard in our lives. But I would just encourage you to, you know, A, to go at your own pace, B, to seek ways to heal yourself because, or seek ways to, you know, dispose yourself to healing because, you know, we were made, we were made to be healed.

You know, I, I think a lot of our, Like our intuition is that you know, this is like I can be healed here I need to be healed here and I heard one of my favorite priests father James serby is a really good podcast called holiness for the working day And he said that you know in jesus time he did he performed a lot of healing [01:22:00] Because you know back then they didn't have a lot of physical healing.

He did a lot of physical healing He said but now we're pretty good at physical healing. So what we really need is, you know, spiritual healing, emotional healing and, and Jesus want, he wants to heal us, right? Like he wants that for us. He wants us, you know, he said in the gospel of John, I came that you might have life and have it abundantly.

You know, he didn't say I came that you might suffer and, you know, stumble through life and then, you know, die. He wants us to have abundant life. So I think like having the courage to see past your circumstances and to try to, um, Try to, you know, get better is important. I would also say that, you know, healing, and this is something I've had to learn the hard way.

I, I thought healing was kind of a destination and you get there and you're done and you kind of check the box and you put the file away and then you live the rest of your life.

Hmm.

Anthony: Um, . But I've learned that healing is a process and you know, you're gonna be on that journey the rest of your life. [01:23:00] But I think it is, you know, I think it is a process that is worth, worth endeavoring in.

Joey: Good stuff. Two final questions. If you could speak honestly to mom and dad, I'm curious, like, what would you say? And to whatever degree you're comfortable talking about that?

Anthony: Oh, wow. Best for last. Um, um, wow. Okay. So yeah, I think that, you know, I heard this quote recently and it's really stuck with me and it's that we're mad at our parents because their parents messed them up and then they messed us up, you know what I mean?

And it, and it's kind of like, I think that's like a pretty revealing quote. Because I know, you know, you think very often, you know, and now you're a father, so maybe you can speak more to this, but you think very often, if I were a parent, I'd do it this way, if I were a parent, I'd do it this way, if I were a parent, like when I'm a parent, I'm going to be perfect, or I'm not going to do all these things that my parents have done to mess me up.

But then, you know, as you get older in life, you realize that that's not really the reality and that a lot of, you know, our parents. You know, I would say to mom and dad, I know [01:24:00] they both went through a lot and I think that that is um, That that was very difficult for them And and I think that a lot of like what we've been through or they put us through as a result of that So, you know in in a large sense It's not their fault.

You know what I mean? So I would just tell them both that I love them and I'm thankful for them and for the love They have given me because they they have given me a lot of things and and they have loved me both of them And so like I would say thank you for that. And I think in the end, I hope that they heal as well as me You know,

I love that.

Joey: Well, thank you for coming on for going so long. I'm sorry this went so long, but you have a lot of wisdom that I wanted to make sure everyone was able to benefit from. And yeah, thank you so much for, um, just sharing so vulnerably and again, imparting all that wisdom. I just want to give you the final word.

You kind of went through some of this already, but I just want to give you one last chance. What advice or encouragement would you offer to maybe the younger you who's listening right now?

Anthony: I would just say to my younger self that I would say that, you know, you're, you're going to go through some difficult [01:25:00] things.

It's going to be very hard, but, you know, you're going to make it and it's going to be okay. I think that, you know, we've highlighted a lot of things that, you know, have gone wrong or have been hard, but we also maybe haven't mentioned, you know, that we're both here and we're both doing okay. And, you know, we're making it, you know, and things aren't perfect, nor are we perfect, but we're making it.

And so, so I would just encourage, um, you know, that younger self to not define itself by the lies. You know, that seep in from the world or from different moons. And I would also tell that younger self that, you know, to seek healing and to seek the truth and, you know, it's okay, it's okay to struggle. Like, I think it's okay to struggle and that.

You know, God, you know, one of the scripture verses that I hold to is God works all things to good for those who love him. And, um, and one of my favorite books, St. Augustine says, even their sins, you know, so God is using everything for our good, even our mistakes. And [01:26:00] so, you know, if essentially I think what life comes down to is just abandoning ourselves to God and letting him kind of scoop us up and essentially take us.

Take us where we need to go. And so, so I don't, I would also say, you know, that in, in different things that I'm proposing is like, I do not have it all figured out. I am very much, to be honest, I almost didn't even want to come on this podcast because I, I felt like a little bit of a hypocrite. I'm like, you know, I don't have this all figured out.

How can I go on and talk about my life or tell other people like this is how you should do it. But I, I guess what I would say. Say is that like, you know, maybe the importance is not like in the destination, but it's more like in the struggle to get there in the journey to get there. And I think that's what, in that way, we help other people, we help ourselves.

And I think God sees that struggle in us. And he is pleased with that.

Joey: A few final thoughts due to the time limit and the nature of this podcast. We didn't really get a chance to talk about the good things [01:27:00] about our family. And there's plenty to say. Uh, one thing I would say is all of us siblings are actually pretty close to each other.

Uh, we say as close as our lives will allow. We have good relationships and we love our siblings, Anthony and I, I know. I can speak for him saying that we really love our siblings. And personally, they're just a huge motivation for me for doing this podcast and the work that we do at restored. And although there have been struggles over the years with our parents, we really love our parents and we appreciate all that they've sacrificed for us.

Uh, for example, my mom has always just fought really hard for us to be physically healthy from a young age, even when it, when it wasn't. And then my dad always worked really hard for us to provide. And he really gave us a great example of a hard work ethic, which I totally see in all of my siblings. And that's just to mention a few definitely grateful for my parents.

And although in our story has some sad and heavy parts, there's a lot of good to it as well. If you want to contact Anthony, just see the show notes for his email. He's open to that. And lastly, we really hope that this conversation acted as somewhat of an experiment or maybe a template for how you might talk with your siblings about your parents [01:28:00] divorce or family dysfunction.

You could even send this episode to your sibling or siblings and invite them to listen and perhaps discuss it with you next time you guys see each other. And if you don't have siblings, you could always do this with a close friend, or maybe if you have a good relationship with one or both of your parents, you could do it with them as well.

Just an idea that we wanted to throw out to you. That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or follow an Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever podcast app you use. Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help.

And it only takes a few seconds. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. That also helps listeners find the podcast. And we definitely appreciate that feedback. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life, and we're here to help.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

Restored

Restored creates content that gives teens and young adults the tools and advice they need to cope and heal after the trauma of their parents’ divorce or separation, so they can feel whole again.

https://restoredministry.com/
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#139: Dating or Marrying Someone from an Intact vs Broken Family | Paul & Maggie Kim