#155: Am I Doomed to Repeat My Parents’ Divorce? | Dr. Brad Wilcox
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Am I doomed to repeat the mistakes I saw in my parents’ marriage? That question made me afraid of love—especially when I started dating. At times, it even made me not want to get married at all. And now, even as a married man, that fear still shows up.
If you come from a divorced or deeply dysfunctional family, you probably feel it too.
The question I kept asking: How do I avoid that? How do I not get divorced? And more importantly, how do I build a strong marriage?
That’s what we explore in this episode, plus:
Are children of divorce actually doomed to fail at marriage—or is there real hope?
5 surprising predictors of whether your marriage will last—including one tip that lowers your divorce risk by 25%
The truth behind the “soulmate” myth—and what actually makes couples happy
Why staying single might not be the safe bet you think it is
If you’ve ever felt afraid of love or marriage, this episode is for you.
Buy Dr. Brad’s Book: Get Married: Why Americans Must Defy the Elites, Forge Strong Families, and Save Civilization
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
Joey (00:40)
Welcome to the Resort Podcast, I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate all the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. Am I doomed to repeat the mistakes I saw in my parents' marriage? That question made me afraid of love, especially when I started dating, and at times, it even made me not want to get married. And even now as a married man, that fear still shows up from time to
And if you come from a divorce or a deeply dysfunctional family, you probably feel it too. And that question that I kept asking led to other questions like, how do I avoid that? How do I not get divorced? And more importantly, how do I build a strong marriage? That's what we explore in this episode. Plus, are children of divorce actually doomed to fail at marriage or is there real hope? Five surprising predictors of whether your marriage will last, including one tip that lowers your divorce risk by 25%. We talk about why men's full-time work
plays a bigger role in marriage success than most people think, the truth behind the soulmate myth and what actually makes couples happy, and finally why staying single might not actually be the safe bet that you think it is. And so if you've ever felt afraid of love or marriage, this episode is for you. My guest today Dr. Brad Wilcox. He's a brilliant guy. He's a professor of sociology and director of the National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia. He's also a future of freedom fellow and the director of the Get Married Initiative.
at the Institute for Family Studies, and if that wasn't enough, he's also a non-resident senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. He's a brilliant guy. He also wrote the book Get Married, Why Americans Should Defy the Elites, Forge Strong Families, and Save Civilization. Dr. Brad studies marital quality, marital stability, and the impact of strong and stable marriages upon men, women, and children. A Connecticut native, he now lives in Charlottesville, Virginia with his wife and family. And with that, here's the conversation.
Dr. Brad, welcome to the show, man. Great to have you. Good to be here, Jerry. I love your book. I'm super excited to dive into it. The real important question is what problem does this book solve and why do you care about that?
Dr. Brad (02:50)
So Joe, I was raised by a single mom and I think my initial impetus in terms of moving to this space was about kind of thinking and writing about the ways in which marriage matters for kids and marriage connects fathers to their children. I was raised by a single mom and so not having a dad in the house, was, you know, a salient part of my own childhood. But as I've been kind of doing this work, I've just been sort of seeing a lot of younger adults are hesitant about marriage. They're concerned about their prospects for dating and mating and marrying. A lot of young women in particular are worried about
you know, their prospects for dating and marriage. And so I wanted to write a book that was geared more towards not just this issue of the importance of marriage for kids, but the importance of marriage for adults. And I kind of give them some confidence that you can kind of get married today and forge a strong and stable marriage over the course of your life.
Joey (03:34)
Love it. Even the title itself, think is a little bit controversial in our day and age, but I love it. It's so clear. It's a clear call to action, like get married. There are real benefits to it. So I'm excited to dive into all that. As you know, we're speaking to a lot of children of divorce, know, teenagers and young adults, maybe even people who have been a little bit older than that, who come from really dysfunctional situations. And the data that I've seen says that children of divorce are less likely to get married. They're less likely to have children. They're more likely to get divorced. But based on the data that you've seen, you know, our children of divorce,
kinda doomed to failed marriages or is there some real hope?
Dr. Brad (04:07)
I mean, there's certainly more likely to face challenges, Joey, and it's important just to be clear about that, honest about that. But there are certainly ways you can kind of minimize your risk of divorce and your risk of marital failure too. And we can kind of talk about, but those, you know, I've articulated in the book a number of ways in which, you know, husbands and wives who do these kinds of things are more likely to be both happily and stably married. And that's worth, think, keeping in mind. And certainly, you know, at my university at UVA, I deal with a lot of students who've come from divorced homes, for instance, and they're looking
for reasons for hope and I try to give them those reasons.
Joey (04:40)
Is there any reason, top of mind, whether it's data-driven or more anecdotal, that you typically offer to your students on this topic who maybe do come from that background and face this fear of like, man, am I doomed to repeat my parents' mistakes?
Dr. Brad (04:52)
In terms of the risk that I've seen, I saw one study that was kind of showing the kids whose parents had gotten divorced were about 80 % more likely themselves to get divorced. But again, there are lots of other factors, Joey, that kind of can offset that kind of risk. And we can talk about that as we go forward.
Joey (05:07)
Sure, no, let's dive in. one of the, think the obvious questions is like, what are the secrets to not getting divorced? And we're going to, you maybe that's kind of like the, minimum required. And then I want to get into more like the deep, like, how do you build a thriving marriage? But let's start there. Like, what can we do? What are those secrets to not getting divorced?
Dr. Brad (05:23)
Yeah,
I think two big points I want to make before I of give you like the, some of the items, the to do items. you want one piece, just kind of to have a vision, right? I think you want to enter into marriage, you know, with a vision for a common future, a lifelong future together with your best friend, you know, and so to have a vision of marriage as this incredible journey you're taking together and you're committed to being together for life. That's gotta be part of, I think a successful marriage. And then the other thing is to be kind of.
invested in institutions and friends are going to be with you and for you, know, so kind of recognizing that we are social animals, Joey. And, you know, basically the point here is you are your friends. You are your friends, right? And so if you just think about who your friends are, I'm not saying that they have to all be married, right? But, you know, they have to be the kinds of people who honor your marriage and your family, who support you, who think that marriage is a good institution. I'm not saying every friend, I'm just saying like, like you're your most important friends, right? And if, you have
a kind of a network of people who are kind of with you and for you as a married person, as a father and as a mother, your odds of kind of successfully walking this journey are just way higher. So those are kind of two big points about kind of the mindset and then the social kind of context. But in terms of more kind of discrete things that I would say about ways one can increase your marital stability and to also increase your marital happiness. What I would talk about a lot is the importance, number one, of fostering a sense of communion in your marriage.
And that can be done with things like regular date nights. For instance, we see that couples who have ⁓ regular date nights are remarkably happy in their marriages and about 25 % less likely to get divorced. But just, one way of just kind of cultivating that sense of communion between the spouses, kind of maintain that friendship, maintain that romance on an ongoing basis. It's particularly important for people who have kids. And think today you can kind of have this temptation to be so invested in your kids, you know, athletics.
travel, soccer or whatever it is, know, or, ⁓ academics or music or, know, something else that your kids are up to and you kind of can put your marriage to the side and that that's a challenge. kind of fostering a sense of communion is really important in your marriage. I also talk about in terms of a we before me mindset when it comes to communion. So when it comes to, for instance, money,
What we see is that couples who share their money are more likely to be happily and stably married compared to couples who have kind of his and hers accounts, kind of just recognizing that ⁓ building up a common financial future, a common financial orientation, a sense that you are really sharing your lives, including your financial lives together. These are all really important, helpful things to do. So that's another piece of the communion story. When it comes to children, ⁓ recognizing that, you know, I think
part of the purpose of marriage is about having and raising kids together. It's a common sort of like focus of your marriage. Obviously, not everyone can have kids, but most people can and do have children in marriage. And then in particular, what I think about when it comes to kids is doing both fun things and hard things with them.
And what I see in my research on marital quality, instance, Joey, is that couples who do not just the fun things, you know, going to baseball games or going on hikes, whatever it might be, you the beach, you know, joy with your kids, but also kind of doing hard things. And for us, Saturday morning is shorter time in the Wilcox household. Always a struggle, you know, I mean, I've been raising kids for a long time. We have a lot of kids never really been an easy time of the week for what, but just see kind of in the research that.
couples who make the effort to do hard things with their kids are more likely to be flourishing in their marriages. And they have a kind of common project together. They get things done. a sense of accomplishment as parents with their kids. I think that's important too. The third C is commitment. Kind of recognizing that we live in a day and age, when people are often afraid to commit or they're getting lots of messages in the culture that discourage them from commitment. Like one thing we've seen, for instance, in the last year and a half is a lot of talk about polyamory. It's just one example of
You know, the way in which people are kind of discouraging that most important commitment, you know, the sexual fidelity between spouses. And yet we see that when you look at the research, Joey, that couples who, um, you know, really stress, not just sexual fidelity, but kind of commitment more generally are more likely to be happily married and stably married. Certainly infidelity is one of the top predictors of divorce. So I think just being attentive to the ways in which you kind of need to put your primary focus on these sort of emotional and the moral and the
financial and spiritual welfare of your spouse and not to be distracted by other people who are in your workplace or in your social world or some other context. And thinking about ways you can kind of really keep working on your marriage is important. My colleague, Dr. Scott Stanley kind of talks about in terms of like a lawn and his idea is like, you know, don't look over the fence at your neighbor's lawn and sort of like lament the fact that your lawn is looking rather brown in comparison to your neighbor's richer and greener lawn.
make an effort to make your lawn look good. That's the point when it comes to commitment and to fidelity in part. So we're going through five C's here. The fourth C is about cash. And what we see in the research is that having a series of income and large shared assets
are linked to more marital stability and more marital quality. Like one reason why college educated Americans generally are less likely to get divorced is they are more likely to have a shared home together and other shared assets together. You should be attentive to the ways in which maybe you are or are not building up common assets as a couple and as a family. But when it comes to kind of the cash story or the money story, I also want to stress too that there's a gendered story here that's not easily talked about in public today, but it's still true.
And the gender story is it's really much more important for the husband to be working consistently on a full-time basis in a marriage. We don't see today that wives working inside or outside the home really matters much in terms of marital quality, stability. But when the husband loses his job or is not working on a full-time basis, the quality of the marriage tends to go down, especially when there are kids in the household, wife's ⁓ trying to help support.
her kids and wants the husband to support her kids financially. And then also we just see that there's a much higher risk of divorce when husbands are not stable employed. And as I look at kind of my friends who've gotten divorced, and I'm 54 now, Joey, and unfortunately, do know a number of guys have gotten divorced, most of whom have gotten divorced unwillingly. As I look at their experiences, I'm not saying every one of them, but a number of those guys are guys who are not consistently employed across the course of their marriages full-time. And I think what may have been happening in
part is that their wives just kind of felt financially vulnerable and insecure. They didn't know where the next kind of dollar was going to come from. They were worried about the future. I that was a kind of a corrosive dynamic of financial insecurity in their marriage. anyways, the point is that I think, you know, we don't sort of stress the importance of male providership much in public, Joey, right now, but it's still the case that we know that marital quality, marital stability, entry into marriage is much more highly predicted by men's employment.
That is by women's employment. So I think that the guys who are listening to this, you know, episode should just be cognizant of that and just, and you know, it's a dynamic economy. Things are happening all the time. You might get fired, you might get laid off. That's fine. But the question is, are you kind of eagerly looking for a new job is I think the question you've got to ask yourself if you are not employed full time as a, ⁓ and, there are some exceptions. I know, but I'm just saying for the average couple, it's important for, you know, the average husband to be.
gainfully employed and to be kind of a financial rock for his family to be, you know, situated upon. The final C is about communities, because back to the point about our social networks and, know, the idea of course is that birds of a feather flock together here. I said before, I'll say it again, you know, you are your friends. And I think we all kind of know that there are different kinds of social networks out there today. And if you hang out with people who kind of don't really honor marriage, who, you know,
use drugs, who drink a lot, who party a lot, whatever. mean, you kind of can fill in the blanks there. Or who just, they're kind of just living for Instagram. They're living for Insta. They're kind of like traveling a lot. They've got the beautiful house. They're spending lots of money on conspicuous consumptions of one sort or another. I think the odds of you kind of failing at marriage are going to be much higher. By contrast, if you're kind of surrounded by people who are clearly making
an effort to, you know, work on their marriages and to honor marriage, even if they're single, then you're more likely to succeed at marriage and family as well. So that's an important point. And I kind of talk about in the book in terms of kind of religion, for most Americans, it's particularly the case that people who are regularly going to church are more likely to be happily married. About 15 percentage points are likely to very happy in a marriage. That's a big, you know, difference in data. And then there are about
30 to 50 % less likely to get divorced if they're regular churchgoers compared to their fellow Americans who are not churchgoing. So these are some of the things that you kind of can do. So you can think about just embracing a way before me mentality, regular date nights, doing productive things with your kids, embracing various kinds of commitment, especially in terms of sexual fidelity, working full-time if you're a guy, and then...
You know, situating yourself within a community that honors and supports marriage. These are the kinds of things that one can do to avoid ending up in divorce court.
Joey (14:54)
Love it. So good. Couple of follow up questions. When it comes to dates with kids, I know that's a big thing and maybe some of our listeners aren't there yet. Some are though. I'm curious what you and Danielle, right, is your wife. What have you guys figured out with kids? It's tricky to have a regular date night when you have kids. Is there some system or something that you've found that works well?
Dr. Brad (15:13)
Yeah,
so think it's going to vary for the couple. And so I spoke to one couple for the book who basically when they had two small boys in their home, they went into, they put the boys down at night, you know, and then they would go down to the basement. The husband in this case was a musician. He would like play music. They might, you know, make a cocktail, whatever. So it was just, that was like, that was pretty cheap option for them, obviously, and easy, right? For us, we've relied pretty regularly on babysitters from UVA. We've had a lot of good, you know, students at UVA who've been kind of trustworthy and reliable in our network at UVA.
But we also have my in-laws moved to Charlottesville about 13 years ago when we had our twins. And so just having them in the mix as well, they've done a good bit of babysitting over the years as well. I think kind of relying on kin can be helpful for some folks. But I do think, you know, figuring out some way to kind of set aside time on a regular basis, at least I'd say twice a month, if not once a week, is really helpful for couples. And
we see too when it comes to dates as well is that novelty is great. So, you know, whether it's dancing, hiking, doing a cooking class, you know, and to be in the spirit of philosophy, we don't do a lot of that novelty stuff and we've got a more routine, but it does seem like the research tells us that trying to kind of mix things up too can be really helpful when it comes to your date nights as well to kind of make them, there's something about novelty that's connected in the brain to romance. And so I think, you know, just trying to recognize the value of
trying new things when it comes to your data. And this is also, I think, what the research would suggest.
Joey (16:43)
Love it. Yeah. I know my brother-in-law, Kevin, he was telling me that sometimes he'll just send the kids down to the basement and let he and his wife like eat together and they kids will watch movies, something like that. I think it's a great thought that it doesn't need to be expensive because I think a lot of times when we think of dates, we think of these, you elaborate meals and expensive restaurants, but I love that thought. And yeah, I, my wife and I were in a good spot. Now we have two kids, a third on the way. When, but years ago we were in a really good spot. She was working.
⁓ as a nurse and so her schedule is irregular, but we had like a reminder come up once a month to plan out the month for a date. We would do those. had ideas. Now I'm trying to like figure out how to systemize this being a business guy. And so I think everything you said, one thing that's been helpful for me is to think in different categories of dates. Like there's casual dates, you know, where maybe you are going out to dinner or you're going to see a movie, something like that. There's, ⁓ maybe more active dates, like adventurous dates where you're
playing pickleball, going on a hike, going kayaking, something like that. There might be relaxing dates where you're just kind of sitting around the house doing things like that. So thinking in those categories has been helpful. And I actually now have a, I'm such a nerd, I have a spreadsheet of different date ideas so I'm not thinking, we're going out tonight, what are we gonna do? I don't know, what do you wanna do?
So I think things like that is really, it can be helpful. So I'm in the middle of it, but I'll have to report back to everyone and see how that goes. But I wanted to ask a question about the cash side of it. I definitely agree that is not encouraged much for men to be strong providers. And so I'm curious if there's like one lesson you have for them, the thought from my perspective, I'm curious what you think about this would be to make sure to develop like high value skills.
I think there's an under emphasis on this that somehow, you you can go to college and maybe just do whatever passion you have and study whatever passion is, and then go on and maybe get a good paying job. That's not the case always. And so I think focusing on something that you can really get paid a lot for is great. And it doesn't mean you have to go do something you hate, but I think that's like really, really key to like get those high value skills that the marketplace is demanding that, that, you know, companies need or organizations need. But I'm curious if there's like one thing you would say to men.
who want to be those providers but maybe don't have those skills or aren't in a position to have a high paying job.
Dr. Brad (18:45)
I think that's exactly right, Joe. I mean, think it's important to understand that you don't have to go to college, you know, don't have to go to graduate school to have a high paying job, you know, or to have some kind of thing you're doing that is, you know, renumerative. I mean, it's obviously, you know, tons of guys are working as plumbers, as electricians, as IT techs, or some other kind of specialty, you know, skill that is, you know, kind of highly renewable. And I think that the unfortunate dynamic that I see playing out among young adults today, particularly among working classing adults that
I see playing out is that for some reason, it's the young woman in the relationship who has that drive to go get that extra skill. It could be like, know, a CNA who's getting, it could be gonna be like, you know, some kind of medical tech thing, certificate that will kind of put her up into the next, you know, kind of level of providing. And the boyfriend's just seems quite content to kind of like, you know, just do whatever.
And that's just, think, toxic for a long-term marriage and family. So think really encouraging our young men, especially guys who are not on that more academic killing it track, so to speak, to recognize that there are plenty of avenues for them to walk down and get a unique skill and make a good salary. But they've got to chase it. They've got to want it. They've got to need it. They've got to understand that this is going to position them.
to be a better husband, a more attractive guy, and a better father. And I don't think we're kind of doing enough to kind of give them, you know, give young guys, you know, adolescents, young men, kind of that message, particularly in many working class and poor communities where guys are especially likely to be not working full-time today and not to be acquiring those unique skills that are going to give them a leg up in the labor force.
Joey (20:30)
I love that. Yeah, one of the lessons that has been helpful for me is Ken Coleman who works with Dave Ramsey's team. He does a lot of coaching on this career side of things and I definitely recommend everyone check out his books and his podcast YouTube channel. And he just says if you want to develop some sort of skill, get into some sort of profession, you need to be around people doing it. And even if that means like volunteering your time.
Like he tells his story, he wanted to become a sports anchor. He was running a small business. I don't know exactly what he was doing at the time, but he was making a good amount of money, but he wanted to go this broadcasting route and he's an exceptional broadcaster. Anyone who's heard Ken Coleman knows that. And he was literally volunteering for free to bring people coffee at the local ESPN studio just to get the foot in the door. And so I think like doing those, those little things can be really wise, but he's a great coach. And one other thing I don't, I haven't read the Harvard study, but I've heard
that sometimes it's misquoted how you become like the five people you spend the most time around. What I heard someone say is it's actually more about your reference group, like who are you comparing yourself to? So if you're walking around comparing yourself to a friend who maybe has a very menial job or who isn't maybe great with money or not very driven, you're probably gonna think that you're doing okay.
But if you compare yourself with people who are very driven, are having some success on that side of things, the likelihood that they will rise you up to their level is pretty darn good. Just like if you spend time and compare yourself to people who are really fit, if you're not, you're probably going to develop the habits that will get you to become more fit.
Dr. Brad (21:52)
Yes, 100%. Yep. Social comparison is an important part of the process. I think, yeah, trying to figure out kind of how you can be hanging out with, in this case, know, men who going to kind of give you a better model and even kind of access to job leads will be helpful.
Joey (22:08)
Okay, no, I like that. And that's the last thing I was going to mention not to go so all in on this. This is something I am passionate about though is I've heard the stat that having done hiring in my past business job, I've heard the stat that like 60 to 70 % of all jobs come from like private personal networks. Like they're never posted publicly on, you know, the different like next door or indeed. It's really about who you know. So I think there's something good about developing those social skills as well. But maybe we're going a little deep there.
The last thing I wanted to touch on and follow up was like the community portion. I love the analogy you use in the book about the sirens call and how it's really easy at certain seasons of your marriage to falter, to be tempted, to maybe want to walk away. So I'm curious whether you go through that analogy or not. I'm curious if you would elaborate a little bit more on that and how having those structures in place is really so key to being on the straight and narrow.
Dr. Brad (22:57)
I
talk in the book about a couple who were in sort of the Southeast and they were both kind of working in different schools and the husband in this case had kind of grown up pretty poor and he did not want his kids to be poor. And so they opened up this little side business in their garage and it was going well, but he was just devoting like tons of hours to the business and it was normal job. Didn't have a lot of time left over for his wife and kids. And so meanwhile, his wife's doing her job and raising the kids more and she meets some guy at her school, you know.
And he's like, I don't know, know, campus security officer, whatever, and strikes up a friendship with him because her husband's so engaged in the business, he's not that attentive to her. And of course that ends in disaster. ⁓ Thankfully, they were able to kind of put things back together and really understand and appreciate how much, you know, they needed to focus on one another and not let the kind of business and money concerns distract the husband from, you know, really focusing on the marriage and the kids.
they were able kind of pull things together, thankfully. But the point here is I think to recognize that, you know, life is challenging and difficult. You know, your marriage is going to ebb and flow ⁓ as things happen. And ⁓ on the one hand, the husband should be, you know, making more of an effort to kind of stay engaged with his wife. But on the other hand, you know, the wife should be also making an effort in this case, not to be cultivating a friendship with kind of an attractive alternative to her husband. And so I think, you know,
That's the main takeaway in my book is that when you are married, your attentions and your affections should be focused on your spouse. mean, can have acquaintances and friends, especially of the same sex, but I think just kind of like making sure you're not kind of becoming too close to an attractive alternative to your spouse. And so I think every couple is gonna have maybe different roles for how they handle this, but I think definitely not drinking with...
you know, someone, ⁓ you know, especially like on a work trip when you're away from your family, you know, who is, you know, an attractive alternative to your marriage would be kind of like one of, you know, the rules of thumb that I would, you know, that I would use. But I think each couple is going to have kind of like their own, you know, agreement about how they're going to handle, you know, attractive alternatives. One of the women that I spoke to for the book, it was Mary, kind of stressed that from her perspective, like, you just need to understand that there are going to be people who come into your life who are attractive to you.
And rather than being surprised by that, just to have kind of like basically a ⁓ for like how you're going to handle that and just recognize it's just, it's good to have some norms that protect you from becoming too close to those people in ways that could threaten your marriage.
Joey (25:31)
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overstressing or focusing too much on the scale and it gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use that you can implement today. And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never going to get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally. I think one of the dangers so often and my generation young people today is just believing that marriage is going to be a fairy tale. Having these kind of like unrealistic romantic expectations of marriage.
that don't live up to reality. I was curious if you would, you what is the soulmate myth? Why is that so important? That really struck me and I think it's something that's especially my audience needs to hear.
Dr. Brad (26:29)
There's this book called Eat, Love, and it was really popular probably about a decade ago by Liz Gilbert, also made into a movie that's, I think, pretty evocative. But it's kind of just like this book and this movie that currently really celebrates a much more romantic view of love and marriage. And Liz Gilbert actually is someone who, in the beginning of the book, leaves her first husband because she wasn't ready to become a mother, travels the world, meets her second husband in Bali in this incredibly romantic setting.
He's Brazilian, he's a good cook, he's a good lover, he's like a male feminist, you he's like all these like the perfect different things, you know, and she marries him, right? And she also talks about like the importance of like basically chasing your own happiness in her book and all this kind of stuff. And of course, 10 years after she marries, you know, husband number two, and you know, who she met in Bali, she divorces him.
You know, and, leaves him for someone else and she's now with another person. But the point is, is that I think she was kind of both chasing happiness in relationships and also kind of chasing the feeling of being in love, you know, a more romantic, like intense, you know, connection with someone not recognizing that's not really a strong foundation for lifelong marriage, lifelong love, you know, the feelings are fleeting. They go up and they go down. And so I think the idea with the sort of the soulmate myth is recognizing.
that directly pursuing happiness, directly pursuing that intense emotional connection or romantic connection with someone is a kind of fool's errand. And that people who recognize and realize that marriage is about kind of love understood as kind of prioritizing the good of the other, the good of your marriage, the good of any kids that you have is the real kind of business of marriage. And that's what love really looks like. And then what I find too in the research that I've done is that generally speaking, people who kind of embrace
the more classic idea of love as kind of pursuing the good of the other in the context of being a spouse and a parent are more likely to be happily married. So there's just something about not privileging your own happiness in the moment and your own sense of romance, but trying to just be a good husband, good father, a good wife, good mother. If you do that, generally speaking, you're gonna be happily married and actually more so than the people who are kind of trying to be directly happily married. And that's kind of the paradox of what I call
marital happiness is that by just trying to be a good spouse and parent, you're more likely to succeed when it comes to marriage.
Joey (28:51)
Happiness is a byproduct of that plan.
Dr. Brad (28:53)
Exactly. You can't pursue it directly, but generally speaking, of course there are exceptions. I've been married 29 years and there have been days, months, because I've only been unhappy. But generally speaking, by trying to be good spouses and parents, we enjoy the goods that flow from that effort.
Joey (29:10)
Yeah, no, love that. And that's one thing I try to, you know, speak to our audience about is that like, expect it to get hard, expect seasons and days where you are just, you know, on be married, you'd rather walk away. And it's probably pretty tempting too. But I think if we go into marriage, expecting that, of course, assuming like we're doing our due diligence, like working hard to pick the right spouse and discern that well, but we just need to expect it not to be a fairy tale. And if we, if we do, there's a lot of joy to be found. Like it can be really, really beautiful, but it's not going to be, you know, a fairy tale, but.
One of the things you made me think of and you could you've read more philosophy to the Mies you could probably touch on this. I remember reading an article from Jason Everett where he, I don't remember all the details, I'm a little fuzzy here, but he was talking about kind of the origins of this soulmate idea, how I think it went back to Plato and there was some idea of like the gods creating humans who were like joined together and then they cut him in two.
and then I'm butchering this, but they sent them out into the world and then they essentially had to like spend their lives like trying to find that other part of them that was separated from, you know, eternity or wherever. And that's led to this idea that there's just this one person out there in the world who we have to find. And if we do all our hat, you know, we'll be happy and all of our dreams will come true. ⁓ To your memories, that sound right about the play to origin and if not, that's okay. And I'm curious if there's anything.
Dr. Brad (30:26)
Warbatures like the troubadours, the Arthur and Sir Lancelot. There are lots of romantic motifs, certainly in Western civilization, I'm sure in other cultures as well. And I think it does correspond to something very deep within us, right? That there is this of spark that we have when we meet someone oftentimes, and that's a beautiful and powerful thing. But I think what people don't always recognize and realize is that that spark, those butterflies in your stomach,
A, there's a physiological process happening there that tends to add over time. And yeah, any relationship, long term relationship is going to have its profound challenges. And so not expecting every part of your marriage to be kind of like this peak moment is just so important to ⁓ really appreciating the fullness of married life.
Joey (31:13)
Going to and I'm willing to that article by Jason. I was really interesting read for anyone who wants to check that out. The masters of marriage you wrote about them in the book. You already touched on I think a lot of the lessons that we've kind of learned from them. I'm curious if you'd explain who they are for everyone who doesn't know and if there are any additional lessons that you would add. Yes.
Dr. Brad (31:29)
So
I argue in the book that there are some great psychologists like John Gottman, for instance, who kind of give us a sense of what are the discrete kind of techniques that you can use in your marriage to kind of maximize the quality of your relationship with your spouse and things about communication, conflict, you know, that you can kind of embrace. Like there's this idea that when you're having an argument, know, and frankly, my wife's much better at this than I am, but, you know, you should sort of layer in five positive comments for each negative comment, right? This is John Gottman.
It's one of his, five to one rule, right? So he's got all these cool ideas about how you can be a better spouse and a better partner, all this kind of stuff. But what I point out in the beginning of my chapter on the masters of marriage is it's like, this is not the reason why there's a neighbor just to the northwest of his love lab at the University of Washington where he would monitor all these couples and see how they were doing and drive these lessons for couples. There's this neighbor just to the northwest of his love lab that's like incredibly stable marriages, right?
And there's a neighborhood, I think a couple miles to the south, you know, in Seattle that is like marked by, you know, markedly high rates of family stability and single parenthood. And my point is it's not that like one group of people is like reading his book and kind of mastering his techniques and one group is not right. It's really about the way in which culture and class are implicated to and Merrill success today. And so what we're seeing is that there are basically four groups of folks who are more likely to be masters of marriage and they are.
religious folks, conservative folks, Asian Americans, and what I call strivers or college-educated Americans. And they have a set of cultural and really economic advantages that help them get married, stay married, and oftentimes be reasonably happy married as well. So Asian Americans really tend to come from cultures that prize what I call familism, this kind of idea of putting your family first over your own individual well-being.
and also kind of recognizing that your marriage matters tremendously for your kids' success. So there's a sense among a lot of the Asian parents that I spoke to that like they know that if they can kind of keep things together on home front, their kids are more likely to realize the American dream understood both educationally and financially. Okay, so that's the Asian kind of story quickly. There are religious folks who kind of understand that, you know, marriage is a sacred commitment and you know, family life is a sort of sacred undertaking and that kind of freights
family life and marriage with greater significance and power and willingness and their part to sacrifice for their spouse and their kids. So that helps to understand the religious piece. They're also embedded in networks that are more pro-family. The college folks, they're more likely to earn more money, to own more homes, you know, have like a long-term orientation that gets them out of bad behavior that could, you know, cause trouble in workplace or in personal stuff, right? And the college educated folks are more likely to surround themselves with other folks who are still married too, which is part of their story.
group that kind of came up as a surprise in the research was just conservatives. We thought that when you kind of looked at, you know, religion, ethnicity, education, that would be it. But we found in the research to just even measuring ideology above and beyond those other three factors, Joey, was now a big deal. And so conservative folks, you know, are more likely to get married and be happily married. So for instance, religious conservatives are more likely to be married and they're more likely to be happily married compared to religious liberals. So there's just something about, I think, being
conservative minded and being kind of attentive to conservative signals, particularly like, you know, people like, you know, Ben Shapiro, for instance, you know, whatever you might think about his position on foreign policy or economics, like he's very kind of, you know, clear on the importance of marriage and the importance of embracing the classic virtues to sustain marriage as well. So people who are like listening to Ben Shapiro, for instance, or, you know, not every conservative, obviously, you know, many kind of conservative voices out there are more likely to kind of pick up on the importance of marriage in one way or another.
I think that helps to explain why they're more likely today to be married and then also to be happily married.
Joey (35:21)
of it. And in most of that, maybe not all of it, I kind of hear this theme of like selflessness, like, especially like you mentioned in the Asian Americans that there's kind of like this other focus is not all about me and what I want in life and what I'm getting out of it. And I think that's, that's huge. And that's a much more fulfilling life. talked a bit about Victor Frankel on this show and just, you know, what he learned about meaning and, you know, happiness in life. It just requires that deeper meaning than just
your own gratification. And so I hear you saying that and all that. I wanted to talk a little bit about this whole like kind of epidemic of people who are really lonely, who are single. ⁓ You know, some people do say that it's actually just safer to be single. It's better to, you know, fly solo. There's less risk, there's less effort. You have more license, more freedom. But you said that, you know, going it alone can actually have some consequences. There's some danger, some downsides to that. Why is that?
Dr. Brad (36:14)
think
that people have the sense of kind of keeping their options open, being free of encumbrances, you is way you kind of can enjoy, you know, more Saturday brunches, you know, better restaurants, maybe more travel, whatever it might be, right? And you kind of can see at one level the appeal of that kind of approach to life and living. But what we do see is that for most of us, kind of, we are, as Aristotle said, social animals, and we're more likely to flourish when we have deep and abiding friendships and family relationships.
And so there's just no question that, you know, married men with kids, married fathers, married mothers are almost twice as likely to be very happy with their lives, for instance, Joey, compared to their single and childless peers, both male and female. And I would attribute that in part just to the ways in which having a spouse and having kids reduces your risk of being lonely and of living a life that you don't attach much meaning towards. And then also to even we're looking at a new report that we're doing something on like the importance of physical touch.
So just having opportunities for touch on a daily basis with your wife, your son, your daughter, your husband, et cetera. we are, think, if you have a dog, at least our dog is really touch-oriented, flourishes the more touch she gets, The more attention she gets, physical attention. I think a lot of us are like my dog. We're just happier when we have a decent amount of physical attention and affection.
If we don't get that, then we're going to unknowingly often, I think, not be as happy. And I think we're we're a lie, you know, in our larger culture, they oftentimes just telling people that like, what really matters is work and freedom. And the problem with work and freedom as your primary foci or fun, you know, of life is it really denies you oftentimes the opportunity to truly connect with friends and family and to form a family of your own.
Joey (38:07)
If you come from a divorce or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry.com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.
Yeah, I see that in kind of younger people that are younger friends that I know, especially more on the secular side that, yeah, they're focused on their careers, they're focused on, not that that's bad by any means, but they're focused on all the other things that are kind of kicking marriage down the road, kicking children down the road. And my message to them is like, I freaking love being a dad. It's so good. It's the challenges for sure, but it's like my favorite part of life and it's brought so much happiness and joy into my life. And I think hopefully if they hear more of that, they'll be able to.
see the benefits to it but everything you said makes so much sense. On the touch side, I'm so interested to hear, when are you guys publishing that? I'm curious and have you seen any cultures where loneliness is lower and touch is high?
Dr. Brad (39:12)
This is just an American study. So Joe, I don't know about the international story, but yeah, we're to have this out probably in the mid to late summer. So it's coming up pretty soon.
Joey (39:20)
Okay, we'll try to grab that and a link to it. I was having a conversation with someone recently about this, like comparing the European cultures, how, you know, when they embrace, they'll maybe kiss each other in the cheeks. In France or some regions of France where they do it literally three times on the cheeks.
Dr. Brad (39:34)
It is true. think that's a beautiful thing, a beautiful custom. For sure. If you try to approximate that would be, I it would be awkward if you start going around, know, kissing them three times. But I think, you know, that's not going to happen here in the States. But I think what we could do is just be a little more, you know, give people a side hug. I think these little things matter.
Joey (39:53)
I agree, I think we're all hungry for it. I'm curious if there are any other benefits of marriage that you learned through the research that especially someone who maybe is like a little bit skeptical of it might be surprised. already mentioned a bunch of things, but anything else you've had?
Dr. Brad (40:04)
I think
that the biggest argument against marriage that I get, because there's just no question that married people are generally happier, healthier, financially better off. they're, you know, like for instance, married people are a little bit heavier than their single peers for obvious reasons, right? They're not in the market anymore, right? But on other health outcomes, they're generally much better off, right? But I think the big question you get from like the smart skeptics is this is just a selection effect, Joey. Like it's just the kind of people who select into marriage.
are just kind of they're better off or they're more socially depth, they're more handsome, they're prettier, you know, whatever. And yeah, and there's there's certainly truth to that argument, right? That's part of the point of my book about the four groups, you know, who are the masters of marriage, they're they're more either affluent, basically educated, and or kind of culturally attuned to the power and importance of marriage, but even kind of, I think
Joey (40:35)
or a luxury of sorts.
Dr. Brad (40:52)
kind of controlling for those factors. would still make the argument that marriage per se is good for people. And just to give you one example, there's a sort of a study of twins in Minnesota, guys, and the guys who were married, twins who were married, were earning about 26 % more than their twin brothers who were not married. So it's kind of, and I can, you know, I can give you a story about what it is about marriage that makes men work harder, smarter, more successfully. But the point is that, you know, they're kind of newer methodological.
innovations that allow us to kind of make stronger causal claims that it's marriage per se that is helping to account for these outcomes, not just a selection effect.
Joey (41:29)
Totally makes sense. tracking with you there. Switching over to kids a little bit more. So a lot of young people today, as you know, are hesitant to have kids, as we've said. They see it as a huge sacrifice. It's kind of a threat to their freedom. But from your research, why might having children in particular, as opposed to just marriage, be really good for them?
Dr. Brad (41:46)
There's this big data set called the General Social Survey. It's been sponsored by the University of Chicago every other year basically since 1972. And if you look at the data from the 70s until about 2000, there were some years when, you know, childless adults were less happy than parents and some years when parents were, you know, happier than childless adults. So it was kind of like a mixed story. Like does, you know, being a parent, you know, seem to be, you know, a happier space or place for
for American adults, not clear, right? But since 2000, especially in recent years, Joey, there's been just a growing gap in the GSS when it comes to kind of the emotional wellbeing of parents versus non-parents. And I think what's happening here is that we're living in an age when people are more distracted by these devices and when other forms of solidarity in terms of like both religion and secular forms of community have kind of weakened, withered.
It's just the case that I think people who've got a spouse and kids are just, they're more social, you know, with their, family members. You're taking the kids to school, you're taking your kids to soccer practice. If you're religious to like church youth group, you know, you're just seeing other people with your kids. You're out the park, whatever. mean, it's just like, it's an engine of sociability now, I'd being a parent. And so what we see in the research is that there is no group again of women and men who are happier than married mothers and married fathers. And I think that's probably because
being a parent gives you just more opportunities for physical touch, for socializing, and for ⁓ being a part of a larger series of networks related to your children in ways that are generally good for us.
Joey (43:25)
So good. You make me think of the happiness advantage book and the research I did at Harvard talking about. Essentially, from what I understood from that research, the strength of your social ties, everything that you're saying, is really the predictor of your satisfaction in life, your happiness.
Dr. Brad (43:39)
And not just happiness too, but like they found in this longitudinal study at Harvard that you're mentioning that people were doing better off like, you know, physically as well. So there's so many about having good friendships and good family relationships, including good marriages that really kind of help people deal with things like, you know, pain and physical limitations as you head into your sixties and seventies and eighties, right? So think about that social support and orientation that is good for us, not just emotionally, but it seems like physically as well.
Joey (44:08)
No, I love that. If I remember right, the author Sean, I can't remember his last name, he actually moved, I think, away from Harvard on the same street as his sister and his parents. And they all live within close proximity because he's like, I'm looking at this data. It says if I have these close connections, especially with my family, it can make me happier. And so he followed his own advice, which I think is an amazing thing. So I know everyone listening, maybe your family situation doesn't allow you to live close to mom or dad. Maybe you have a better relationship with one or the other, but maybe your siblings, or you can at least build a community with close friends.
really get the benefits of those social connections. Anything you'd add there before we close down here?
Dr. Brad (44:42)
think just the big point I would make here is that I think, you know, the temptation for Americans is to kind of focus in on their own desires, to kind of close it on themselves. And yet we know from a lot of research, you know, that kind of living a generous life, making a gift of yourself to others is actually the pathway to a more meaningful and generally more happy life as well. And that's a big part of, I think, the marriage and family story that we're seeing play out today and in my book as well.
Joey (45:07)
Love it. Speaking of the book, how can people get it? How could they follow you online?
Dr. Brad (45:10)
So I'm on Twitter, Brad Wilcox, IFS, and we have a blog called Family Studies at FamilyStudies.org that does a lot of ⁓ kind of, I think, important research and articles on family life, including marriage and parenting. And then they can get the book at Amazon, Brad Wilcox, Get Married, Amazon is the way. It's usually discounted. So that's the best vehicle.
Joey (45:30)
Speaking about the studies, one final question there. Are you aware of any studies that have looked at children of divorce who, like we said, are more likely to get divorced, who then go on and build really beautiful marriages? Are they just doing the things that everyone else is doing who has a happy marriage? Is there anything particular about them kind of breaking that cycle which so often repeats itself?
Dr. Brad (45:49)
I haven't seen anything in particular on that except for, what I do know from the research is that if you are from a divorced home, marrying someone is from a stable married home is going to reduce your risk of divorce above and beyond the things that we've just talked about today. think, you know, just to be personally, I was raised by a single mom and my wife's parents are still married after more than, you know, almost 60 years of marriage. And I think for my wife, you know, certainly kind of
There's no question that if, you know, if we're disagreeing about something or she's upset about something like she's not going to be thinking about divorce as the recourse here. She's seen her parents, you know, navigate a lot, right? And so it's just great to have someone in the marriage who kind of has that template in her head or in his head. But I think if you are both from divorced homes, especially, I would say it's just helpful to have, again, you know, to be intentional about friends who have been steadily married and have navigated challenging.
you know, situations as part of your friendship network to help you kind of navigate the inevitable challenges in married life. I that would be my final takeaway.
Joey (46:52)
If you want more from Dr. Brad, definitely check out his book. have the physical book and the audio book. Highly recommend it. And that wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find the podcast. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back.
and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
