#156: “This Is Not the Marriage I Signed Up For” | Heather Khym

Heather thought her family life was normal. But over time, she uncovered two buried traumas that quietly shaped her childhood—and required deep healing.

Years later, as a newlywed, another wound came to light: her husband’s secret porn addiction. It shattered her—but it also became the turning point for restoration. Heather now calls it both the worst day and the best day of her life.

In this episode, we dive into:

• Why she didn’t leave, and the non-negotiable conditions she set to even consider staying

• Her advice for women facing the same gut-wrenching discovery, and for young people who just found out about a parent's addiction or affair

• Her biggest lesson for anyone from a dysfunctional family—and the practical steps she recommends to start healing

If you’ve ever found yourself wounded or betrayed, wondering if healing and restoration is possible, this episode is for you.

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Visit Heather’s Website

Listen to Restore the Glory

Listen to the Healing Sexual Brokenness Series

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:51)

Welcome to the Resort Podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Heather Kim. She is the co-host of the internationally popular Abiding Together podcast. She and her husband Jake are the co-founders of Life Restoration Ministries in British Columbia, Canada.

She has more than 25 years of experience as a speaker and retreat leader, offering workshops and conferences in the United States and Canada. Heather attended Franciscan University of Steubenville, my alma mater, and she lives with her husband and three teenage children in British Columbia, Canada. Growing up, Heather thought that her family was normal, as all of us do. But over time, she uncovered two buried traumas that quietly shaped her childhood and required deep healing. Years later, as a newlywed, another wound.

to light her husband's secret porn addiction and absolutely shattered their marriage. It shattered her world, but it became a turning point for restoration. Heather now calls it both the worst day of her life and the best day of her life. In this episode, we dive into how she responded to her husband's betrayal and the emotions no one saw coming, why she didn't leave and the non-negotiable conditions that she sat to even consider staying. Her advice for women who are facing the same gut-wrenching discovery

and for young people who maybe just found out that a parent is dealing with an addiction or maybe even an affair. She also shares her biggest lesson for anyone who comes from a dysfunctional family and some practical steps that you can use to start healing. And so if you've ever found yourself wounded or betrayed, wondering if healing and restoration is even possible, this episode is for you. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who has been listening to this show knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast wherever you're at. I'm glad that you're here.

If you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip the God part, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode. And with that, here's our conversation.

Heather, so good to have you in the show.

talk about this a little bit later, but I know we were recently together at Dr. Greg Bataro's conference and summit. And I have to say the talk that you gave and Jay gave was the best talk I've ever heard on healing. And I've heard a few, so I just wanted to compliment you on that. And we'll talk about that a little bit later. But like you, you had mentioned in your talk that you just kind of get right at it. We do the same on this podcast. So I want to go kind of back in time and just talk a little bit about life growing up. what was life growing up like and more specifically, what sort of trauma did you sustain growing up?

Heather (03:22)

Yeah, well, I grew up in a faith-filled family. My parents are devout Catholics, and so church and stuff like that was a regular part of our family. ⁓ And from the outside, I think probably we looked like an ideal family, but we're just like any other family. You know, there's a lot of things underneath the surface and not that they were being specifically hidden somewhere, but some was just, you know, life happens. And I find it interesting that often

Even with some friends of mine, I was reflecting recently, I was like, I don't know if I've ever heard their whole story, you know? Like the whole thing, like just in one shot. Like you get snippets here, you're sort of like over the years piecing it together. But there is something about hearing someone's whole story, which I'm not going to tell you my whole story right now. The listeners are like, boy, I'm going to pack a snack here for this one. But I think there is something powerful about hearing someone's whole story because usually there is so much more under the surface than we would ever know. And so, yeah, so for us, there was

a lot of traumatic events that had happened. began when I was three months old. had an older brother who was seven who passed away. And it was a tragic accident that occurred at my dad's work. And because I was three months old, for the longest part of my life, I just thought that affected everybody else in the family but me, you know? And in no way do I want to be like, I'm a victim, you know, and all the things. there is a reality that I think I would often approach things in my story as like, that's not a big deal.

people have it worse than me, you know, and I would almost use that to dismiss any impact, any negative impact that had happened in the story. And over time I realized, you know, it wasn't just the rest of the family that was impacted by that. When you come into a family that is grieving, you know, there is an impact, especially on a baby that's looking to, you know, bond and, you know, all of that stuff. And I was very loved, very well loved by my mom and dad. So it's not that.

But I think just from the very beginning, there wasn't a lot of extra emotional resources available for me. So I grew up just sort of learning very quickly that I need to kind of keep it together. I need to take care of certain things myself because there's only a certain amount of bandwidth. That's not to blame my parents or my siblings. That's just a reality, you know, of what they, the trauma that they were going through. They didn't have extra, you know, to give. And so that was kind of the family I grew up in. was loved.

And also, that set the tone for a lot of other things. had another, I have a brother and a sister, and I had another brother. He was the one that passed away. So the brother and the sister that were alive, they obviously had experienced that as a very traumatic event, which impacted them. so specifically with my older brother, he's five years older than me, that event caused my family to move around a lot. My dad had to find another job because this accident had happened at his job. So my siblings being older, they were moving from school to school and, you know,

was a lot of bullying that happened with my brother and all of that. So he's being impacted and I think we've all heard, you know, the phrase hurt people will hurt people. my brother was hurting and I was the younger sister who ended up catching the brunt of a lot of that, which this became a very quiet but intense experience within the family. So no one else really knew the extent of what was going on, but I was experiencing it. in his

attempt to find control and, you know, to, I think when you experience something that's so far out of your control, but also dealing with his hurt and his anger towards God and, you know, all of those things, like he, got involved in the occult, so just like dark, you know, practices. And whether you believe in that or not, you know, I think there's just something to be said about that sort of mindset when you're focusing on evil and powerful things and just grasping after control and power and how that can

impact other people around you, especially someone who is vulnerable, which was me. And so as a result of that, you know, I ended up living several years just in fear, you know, and that was a tactic that he used for control. And I don't know if he really even knew exactly what he was doing, but it just was what happened. And so he would tell me, you know, just horrible things that were going on, things that would scare me. But then he would also say, you know, if you don't keep this quiet or if you tell anybody.

like I'm going to end your life. And it sounds very dramatic to say that even for me saying that now. I think there was a lot of disconnect for me that happened as a result of all that, cause it's so intense. You know, you're like, what kid has to hear that as a part of their daily life, you know, like growing up. And so I just lived in a lot of fear. I spent a lot of time awake at night, just fearing the dark and what was hiding in the dark, you know, and just all the stories and the things that I was seeing and

amount of rage and anger that he had that I just felt like could be unleashed on me or my family, you know, at any time. And in a sense, you know, me staying quiet was partly protecting myself. Like, I don't want him to get angry. I don't want this, you know, to escalate so I'm going to stay very quiet, not just with my words, but I couldn't give anyone a sign that I was struggling. And I think within a lot of families,

You know, secrets are very powerful things and they're under the surface. And there's a lot of suffering that goes on just because of secrets. And because of the secrets, no one could help me. But I also felt like I was protecting myself and somehow everybody else in the family. And that was a role that I ended up taking on because of all that was I need to be vigilant and watching out for anything bad that might happen. there was two impacts. One, I'm growing up thinking,

I have to be quiet. All my emotions got quiet. became very, just like my inside, my outside was not matched up. ⁓ Struggling, no one knew. then at the same time, I feel like it's my job to protect everybody from the bad things, you know, that are all around me. So I would say those two stories, my brother passing away, which impacted everybody, including me, the not having emotional resource available, learning, you know, just

I got to figure this out and I'm on my own. Those things just took a deep, deep root in my heart and impacted then the choices I made and how I lived after that.

Joey (09:42)

Wow, no, so impactful and thank you for sharing so much and I definitely haven't been through that exactly but I definitely can relate with secrets and with ⁓

you know, being impacted at a young age. There was a story I heard recently from a trauma therapist that we work with that we refer people to, Margaret Vasquez. We were talking a bit about this whole idea of explicit versus implicit memory. So for everyone listening who's maybe not familiar with that lingo, our bodies essentially have memory, even if we can't cognitively recall like a picture or a specific instance of it. so she, Margaret, I think was working with a patient with a client in trauma therapy. And this particular client kept saying that she was having this nightmare, this odd nightmare where

she felt like she was just like in a hole kind of grasping for air, trying to like get out of the hole. Didn't make any sense to her. So Margaret asked her like, you know, when you were a baby or when you were younger before maybe you had like this explicit memory, did anything happen to you? It was no or the, and she was like, no, like honestly, there's nothing that happened to me. So Margaret went back and said, well, there's only family members you can maybe talk to to see if something happened. So her parents weren't around or she wasn't on good speaking terms with them, but she had an aunt.

who she was able to call and so she called the aunt and she's like, hey, did anything ever happen to me that maybe would replicate this sort of dream I'm having? And her aunt was like, well, to be honest with you, we never told you this, but when you were like three months old, this kind of freak accident happened. And she might've been a little bit older than that, but essentially what ended up happening is she actually fell into a well, like a water well, and was stuck at the bottom of this well, like literally in a hole.

kind of grasping to get out and one is unable to get out. And they eventually got her out. ⁓ but again, it was before any sort of explicit memory. So I think all the, powerful lesson that I hear from you and from this story is that like what happened then matters even if we think it didn't. And so I think that's where like, especially this whole journey of healing, ⁓ has to eventually take us is to those places of even the implicit memory.

Heather (11:38)

Yeah. And I think just one practical way of people are like, well, what does that look like as you get older? Like, how does a wound like that, like just your brother passing away, feeling like you need to do it on your own or, whatever, what does that look like? And part of it is, I think it's like, I don't want to burden anybody ever, ever, you know, so I will take care of so many details, so many things that might potentially impact someone else because I just, somewhere deep within, there's this belief that they probably won't be able to handle that.

I don't want to be too much for them. I don't want to put any more burden on them than they might be able to handle. And that's a consistent lens that I still recognize as being healed over time, but I still recognize that's sort of a default that I have to work against and go, no, there is space for me to also have needs and to bring those into certain relationships, especially marriage and family and people who are actually wanting to come alongside and take care of me as well.

Joey (12:36)

Yeah, no, it's such a point. I've even seen when people fall into addictions or just really bad behaviors, bad habits. Sometimes as odd as it might sound, that becomes like a way of protecting others from the mess that's inside of them. It's like instead of taking my messiness out on my family or my friends or my spouse or whatever, I'm going to in some ways take it out of myself. I'm going to damage myself. I'm going to hurt myself even not doing it physically necessarily in this example, but there certainly can be a case of just.

I don't know. Yeah. Like a protection that is virtuous in some ways, but it's the outlets bad, right? The outlets not healthy. And so I love what you said about there being a proper way of doing that. Any thoughts on that before we move on?

Heather (13:15)

No, I just think that's very, true. I think that when we have pain, I think what I used to tell myself was, you know, I'm taking care of it. I don't need to look at that. And somehow if I wasn't looking at it, it wasn't going to impact anybody, including me. And the reality is, that's just not true. It doesn't just go away. We don't just put a lid on it and shove it down and then it's not impacting anybody, whether we see it or don't see it. It is going to come out in some way, or form.

And so, I do believe that people can experience freedom and healing on a very, very deep level. have a ton of hope in that area. so, ⁓ as difficult as it can be to go under the surface or to take the lid off something, when you have the right people accompanying you through it, I do believe that there is real freedom to be found.

Joey (14:00)

I love that. That was one of the things I learned from Dr. Batara when he came on the show. We were just talking a little bit about the subconscious and how, you know, he was quoting, I think jump all the second. He said that all these experiences we go through in life kind of get lodged in our subconscious and then our subconscious more or less, you know, dictates the way that we think, act and feel. And so if you're walking through life and I've been there many times and you're really like, I don't know why I think or feel or act this way. Chances are, like you said, there's some work to be done.

going underneath, going into the subconscious and healing the twins, which is, we're gonna talk about that. One of the things I wanted to talk about was the point you made a little bit ago about like hearing the whole story. I think it's just such a fascinating idea even like with ourselves because so often, you we see ourselves in like these kind of fragmented ways. We think of like the highlights or maybe the...

the low lights, like the horrible parts of us, but we really are like all of that. And that was something that your talk did so well. You and Jake's talk, this one I saw you guys recently did so well, just talked about how, like you're all of that, and you can be loved and you can live a healthy life even though all of those things happen to you. Recently, just to tie this up, I've been thinking more about forgiveness and how I've heard a quote recently that said, it's hard to hate up close. It's hard to hate up close.

So like, if you really feel a lot of anger towards someone, if you actually get to know them and start to have compassion on them, it can be really transformative because it's hard to hate up close. It's hard, know, often, especially in this like social media world, online world, we feel so much anger towards other people, towards other views. But if we actually got to know them, you're like, wow, we're actually not totally different. We see things differently, but we're, we're both human. I think we need to do that with ourselves too.

I think it's, you know, we can even like hate ourselves in so many ways. so kind of, again, going into the subconscious and getting to know ourselves, like that whole self-knowledge, I think is so helpful and important. And so I love that whole point that you said that, you know, kind of knowing our whole story, just like another person is one of the keys to beginning to heal.

Heather (15:55)

Yeah, and getting to know those parts with hope, the hope is that we can approach those parts of our story with compassion and curiosity. I think when we experience deep traumatic events, it is a common thing to dissociate from them. So to just sort of like separate, like you said, fragment it, like put it into a category and almost like tuck it away. Like that was some other part. I don't know. Like maybe we can't make sense of it for me. I know it almost felt like a movie.

almost felt like a movie of somebody else's life that I had this distant recollection of. And I don't know how to describe it other than I went through the majority of my life saying for a lot of years, no, I had a great family. They're the best. Like, they're the best. know, and that was the story. And it wasn't until later I was like, holy smokes, I have to

look at this and you know, interestingly, what really triggered the deep work of that was when I had my own kids and I was looking at my, just happened to glance over, was sitting on the couch in our living room and I glanced over at my daughter who was 12 standing in the kitchen and that's how old I was when a lot of this happened with my brother. It was over the course of a few years, but I was at that age and I looked at her and it just struck me so hard. It was like the lights went on and I thought, my gosh, that's how old I was.

And then I thought, what if that happened to her? I just began, like tears just started to well up in my eyes, just imagining if that happened to her because she was so little, like so innocent, so sweet, you know, she would be terrified. Like I just suddenly could see my own story through a lens that I had never been able to see it before. And it was actually really beautifully helpful.

Joey (17:33)

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So good. I want to get deeper into like your own personal healing, but, ⁓ I want to maybe shift a little bit for a second toward marriage and kind of what happened with you guys. Jake's been on the show. Jake was on the show and episode one 20, for anyone who's not familiar, Jake is, has husband and he told the story about what happened. But for anyone who hasn't heard that episode, what happened a couple of years into marriage for you guys?

Heather (18:32)

Yeah, so we had met at university and I think because we both, I think we've always just been kind of deep people. And there was a certain amount of vulnerability that was always, always there. And I would say to the degree that we knew and understood our own stories, which maybe wasn't a lot, you know, at that point compared to now. And so when we were preparing to be married, I knew that Jake

I knew some of the traumas that he'd experienced when he was young, but to be honest, not a lot of them. And I think it's because he hadn't really uncovered those things himself, what it actually meant. Some things seemed normal to him. And it wasn't until later that he got a language around it was like, wow, that's not normal. You know, what happened to me and my family. And so one of the things that he was struggling with or had historically struggled with was pornography. And so I knew that when we were dating, but it was sort of like, yeah, but I'm not struggling anymore.

some time, occasionally, you know, it's an issue. And I have to also say, like, that was the time when the internet was just starting to be available to everybody was when we were engaged and kind of that, you know, beginning part of our marriage. It was just like a couple of, it seemed like, I don't know, a few years old or something like that. So it wasn't super familiar as it would be now. And so my even understanding of that was like, okay, I'm just going to believe what you're saying. Like, it's not really that big of an issue. I remember saying to him at the time,

know, it's important to me before we get married, before we have kids and all of that, that we really try to heal from things, not bring certain things into this relationship and into our family. And he was like, yeah, totally, like totally on board. You know, I just felt like, gosh, this is so awesome. Like we're just on the same page about everything. And you feel like you've talked about everything and you get married. You're like, wow, like this is amazing. And I remember saying to him one day, ⁓

like a couple years in, said, do you think we're still in the honeymoon phase? You know, people say that. And I remember we were on our way to a movie and I was like, I don't think we are. Like, I feel like we talk about everything. Like there's so much, honestly, like what else could we talk about? So naive, so young. So I was like, my goodness. And it was shortly after that, that ⁓ we were having a conversation in our room and he was talking about how he was helping another guy through

a marriage issue that he was having that kind of revolved around pornography. And he said, yeah, I told him, you know, that he should go talk to this priest because as I mentioned, you know, we're Catholic people, so priests can be kind of like a guide or like ⁓ sometimes even like a counselor in some ways as you go and confess things that are going on to them. And he said, yeah, I told him to go talk to this priest because he's really good with that particular issue. And there was something in me, there was things along the way, I would say, that were like,

I was questioning and sometimes I would ask him and he would just say, it's not an issue. Why are you even saying this to me? He would get kind of defensive. But that day I said, how would you know that? How would you know that? And he just looked at me and there was this extra long pause and I was like, no, I could just feel myself like brace yourself. Like here it comes. And, and that day, ⁓ he just confessed that it was a, still a massive issue, that it was an addiction, that he had been struggling with the entire time. And

And I can say now in hindsight, that was the worst day and that was the best day also, because at least it was real. And it being real is really important to me. Like of all the things that probably are hardest for me, lying would be right at the top of the list. Like I just need honest and I need real. And the news was devastating for a lot of reasons. And I just want to comment on, think in today's world, it's so common.

that to be a struggle for people. It's so incredibly common. I think just because we have, you know, phones in our pocket, it's accessible to us at all times. There's no limits. There's no boundaries. There's anonymity. There's hidden, you know, all of the factors are right there for this to be an issue for people across the board, men, women, you know, across the board. I get that. And then it wasn't the same kind of like, it didn't have the same

Yeah, you know, that's just typically what people struggle with, you know? And the comment that I want to make about that is not that it was more challenging than I think that maybe we've, we just become desensitized to actually how painful of a dynamic that that is and how hard that is on a marriage. Because the reality is it is infidelity. It is a form of infidelity, you know, even though it may not be like a physical thing that's happening.

it is, there is things happening. You know, there is unfaithfulness to the vows, I promise to be true to you, I promise to be faithful to you, you know, I will forsake all others. Like all of those things, whether you're a believer in the faith or not, like those are vows that people make when they get married. that was ultra clear to me at that moment. I was like, this is a break in our vows. And that's what was so shattering about it. I'd been lied to.

deceived on multiple occasions, being looked in the eye and told one thing and something else was going on. I felt duped. And yeah, I think most of all, I just felt betrayed, like just as anyone would if there was any kind of infidelity in a marriage. so yeah, I remember saying something within the first day. I remember saying something like I was choosing to say this because I was so angry and hurt, so angry and hurt. But I remember saying, I just need you to know.

I love you, but this is not the kind of marriage we're going to have. And I wasn't ⁓ threatening, you know, it wasn't like that. It was just, this is the truth. This is not the kind of marriage that we are going to have. This is not what I signed up for. yeah. And then the impact of that, you know, there's a thousand things we could talk about as an impact of that.

Joey (24:30)

Wow, no thanks for sharing and I know, gosh, I can't imagine how difficult a time that had been for you, for both of you. I'm curious, perhaps a lot of people listening are thinking of this question. A lot of women perhaps in that situation would have reacted differently. The world, especially today, even if you've made those vows and you've promised your life to the other person, a lot of people would say, just leave, just go start over, find someone else, not worth it. Why did you stay?

Heather (24:57)

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, one of the clearest reasons from the gets not the only reason and it's not even necessarily the primary reason, but we had a daughter, she was, I think, three months old at that time or two months old, something like that. And there was a part of me initially that just thought if I had only known before she was here, this would be different. I'd be out the door, you know, but I don't even know if that's true. That was just the thought that I had, you know, at the time, like, this child is gonna make me fight for this.

because I care so deeply about her now. Which was a weird thing for me, actually, because I wasn't a babysitter, I didn't have younger siblings, I had zero experience with kids. I wasn't the type of person that was dreaming of all of these things. I didn't know what that was like, so I didn't even know how to dream about it. But when she arrived, I was wrecked in the best way for her. I just loved her so much, instantly. It took me by surprise how much I loved her.

was the initial thought was like, she deserves for us to fight for this. And so we're that that's what we're going to do, you know, at least that was my decision that that's what I'm going to do. And I was hoping that Jake was up for it. And that was really the second reason why I stayed is because he was, we both were committed to a process. He did not want this to be in his life. like, what a beautiful thing, you know, that he was like, very honest about

Like I remember in the following days just how many tears I cried, but I also remember how many tears he cried. Like hurt people, hurt people. I'm going to say it again. I know that that phrase can sometimes be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's, just so true, you know? And when we understand someone's story, it can give us compassion and give us some understanding. It doesn't mean that, you know, then it excuses all behavior because now there's this reason, you know, as to why it happens.

Jake was hurting too. There was reasons why, you know, and he probably talked about it in the podcast with you or there's other podcasts he's shared about it, like there was things that happened in his childhood, things, you know, he was exposed to pornography at a very young age before he would even know that it was wrong, that that got its hooks in him at a very young age and just like any addiction, you know, if you think about if you were a little kid and you started drinking alcohol, like that's crazy, you know, but somehow for this one,

just sort of like, well, you know, it seems to be so common, so familiar, ⁓ but it's horrible. And it was destroying him interiorly. He hated living a double life. He hated that. Like, it was tearing him up. And it was like, either this is coming out now. And I think that really was the decision that he was sitting with in that moment when I said, how would you know? He said, have a, he goes interiorly, I was like, okay, I have a choice. Either I hide this forever or

it's going to come out right now and we're going to see like if this can like, if I could get out of this, like if I could ever be free from this. so thank God that that was what he really wanted. And so he was willing to do the work. He was willing to expose the depth of what he was going through to some people that could help accompany him. And to be honest, it wasn't me. I did not want to hear all of that. I couldn't hear all of that. I couldn't hear

details. I didn't want to know because I knew there was a lot I would never forget. I was like, there were some things I needed to know for safety reasons, you know, for like our child and like, I'm like, okay, what are we talking about here? But at a certain point, I was like, I can't be the one because, and even in the decisions that get made, was like, Jake, you have to tell me, like, and tell the people that are accompanying you through this, what you can and cannot do.

right now, like to safely get yourself out of this addiction, you know, to start doing the work for it. So it's like, can you have internet in your home? Like, don't, don't make me be the police officer to put restrictions on you to tell you what you can and cannot do. Like you have to be honest and you have to choose it. And thank God he did, you know? So I would say that's probably the biggest factor. If Jake had said, you know, sorry, this is just who I am. Like you're going to have to deal with it. Then no, I would not have stayed.

And that's a painful thing to say. I think when I was younger, I probably would have been more ⁓ naive about dynamics in marriage, you know, and I would say, no, you just got to choose to stay when you make vows, you know, they're for good. Like, there's just not an option, you know, it's not an option. And I do believe that in many circumstances. I believe that vows matter a lot and they're forever. ⁓ But I also think sometimes the decision is made for you.

by circumstances. You know, not everybody is meant to stay in a relationship that is going to be perpetually painful or abusive or, you know, infidelity is happening. So I have a lot more compassion, I think, in all of that now for people.

Joey (29:53)

No. I, you know, and like you said, well, there's definitely a difference between maybe staying in a really like bad, unhealthy, even dangerous situation and staying true to your vows. can still say true to your vows and kind of exit a dangerous, difficult situation. That's not good for me, your kids. So yeah, we've talked about that a bit on the show, but I appreciate you sharing all that. And, ⁓ yeah, definitely so impressed by you, Heather, especially your ability to like look beyond your own pain. Like I'm sure you'd say it was like God's grace, but, that's yeah, that's profound. And, ⁓ yeah, Jake is.

blessed to have you. I'm curious, what's your advice for maybe a woman who finds herself in that situation? I know you touch on some really good principles and lessons, but I'm sure you've had women come to you who say like, this is my situation, this is what's going on. What do you typically

Heather (30:36)

them. mean, it's complicated in that every story is unique and every story is different. Everybody is coming with different beliefs, you know, like I know a typical belief that a lot of women have in that circumstance is, I'm not enough, it's my fault. That wasn't my belief or my experience. But if that is your belief and your experience, well, then I would say, ⁓ yes, so heartbreaking, you know, that somehow you believe you're to blame.

it's not your fault. Your husband's choices, that's not your fault, you know? No matter what. If you make vows, good times and bad, you keep them, no matter what. Now there might be unhealthy behaviors that you both have to work on, but yeah, that's a tragic thing. So I would say, know, then there, yeah, I would say, yeah, please go to counseling. Like, please, you know, seek out someone that can help you uncover what is in your story that has led you to believe.

that it's your fault, that when people don't love you well, that somehow it's your fault, you know? ⁓ So that would be one thing. I think that there are things under the surface, or there's a lot of women also who are ⁓ terribly afraid. I hear this all the time. I feel like I have to stay and I have to keep engaging in sexual activity with my

husband, even though I feel betrayed, because I'm scared he's going to leave. But they also, in a sense, are betraying themselves. Because how do you give yourself fully to a person when you feel like they have, you know, discarded you in a way? Like that all has to be healed and worked through, because it isn't just an action. It isn't just something that's like, ⁓ we have a drive and you just got to satisfy this thing. There's whether you believe in your in a soul or not, like there, there is an exchange of

persons that is happening in that act. And that requires trust. And when you don't trust and trust is shattered, then it becomes like you're saying something with your body that your heart doesn't believe and your mind doesn't believe and your emotions don't believe. And when that occurs, when you're giving something away that is an incongruent with your inner experience, that can actually be very traumatic also. And so it's almost like more trauma.

gets experienced when we're, yeah, I don't want to say deceiving, but in a sense, it's like we're putting something out there that's not real. I think those things have to be dealt with. We went on quite a journey of a lot of different things. You know, it takes time. It's not a quick fix. It's not like, okay, I'll just choose then not to ever do that again. You know, if it was that easy, Jake would have done that a long time before that, you know. So like, what was going to really stick now? And part of it was absolute honesty, total honesty.

Like I said, not necessarily with me. Honesty with me about the most important things, about the big things. About the details, that was somebody else. We both started going to counseling and he entered into some very specific things. For him also, part of the recovery process was fasting. And so I know that your question was around what do you tell women to do, but I just want to say this quickly because...

There is like a process that you both enter into. His willingness or your willingness, they both have to align like to a certain degree, you know? And it's like, well, we're entering into something and we're actually healing and restoring a relationship. So what we had before is no longer. Now we're back at maybe square one or square two, and we have to be very honest about that. And then there's a courtship and there's, you know, other things that start occurring again, like as trust is being built.

But biggest reality was, Jake, the reality is I don't trust you, nor are you worthy of my trust at this point. So that had to be rebuilt in a lot of ways. My job was to stay open, and that was very hard because what I wanted to do was completely shut down. So for women, I would say if your husband is willing to do the work, then you also have to be willing to grow in receptivity again to him, your openness to him.

Because when we're hurt, we just tend to shut down that's anybody, but women in particular, because of how we've been made, our hearts are receptive in a way in a very particular and beautiful way. I think that's a major area for women that needs to be healed in a situation like this. they have to press into. Like it took effort. It took a lot of different things for me to stay open. Choices, watching where my mind was, watching that I wasn't going to manipulate Jake, hold things over him.

rub his face in it, shame him, diminish him. One thing that someone told us early on, which is just so good, he just said, Heather, Jake is not his sin. This isn't who he is. This is something he's struggling with, but he is good. He has dignity, you know, he's a son of God, like that's part of our beliefs, but yeah, he is not his sin. And I was like, that is something that I have to choose to believe and hold with the utmost respect for him.

even though he didn't deserve it in some ways, you know, it wasn't deserved, it was a choice I needed to make and that ended up being very fruitful.

Joey (35:31)

No, nothing short of heroic. It's beautiful and I'm sure there's maybe men listening right now who are on the other side of this too, who there was a guy who reached out to me recently. His wife was sneaking around behind his back with another man and thankfully they cut it off and

confronted and they're in therapy themselves, but it's a difficult thing to go through and it can go either way for anyone who may be listening, thinking of that. But I love the balance you had here. I won't spend too much time on this, but just between like holding boundaries, holding a standard in place and yet having so much compassion and empathy. think sometimes, like you said, there may be our spouses, women, especially who find themselves in this situation, like you had said, where it's like, I'm just afraid of maybe confronting him or kind of calling it out as like, this is wrong. Like we shouldn't have this in our marriage. We shouldn't have this in our relationship. So, so I love that. And I think

that the guidance you gave of like, if there is ongoing infidelity that's unrepented and that is not, there's no desire to change and something needs to change within the relationship. Hopefully as a step toward ultimate healing, toward bringing the marriage and the family back together, but it will be a long road. I can almost guarantee that. So I love that kind of balance between the two because I think sometimes maybe we go too far in either the direction of compassion or kind of having boundaries and calling people onto like a higher standard.

Heather (36:43)

I do think one of our roles as spouses in a marriage is to pursue being the best version of ourselves. That sounds kind of cheesy, but I think there's a truth there, but also to want that for each other. I really believed even in that moment, you know, of all that could just come in crashing down. just thought, no, this isn't who Jake is. No, this is not.

who he is meant to be. This cannot be where this part of this story ends. He's just going to be addicted to this his whole life. I wanted to fight for him in that as well, as well as myself. ⁓ So I think that that's very, important. And thankfully, it was what Jake wanted. It was what he also believed. remember saying something like, Jake, I married a man and I expect nothing less of that. And in that, I was trying to call out who he really is.

That is who he is.

Joey (37:38)

I love that. When it comes to your marriage now, I'm curious, like give us a little bit of a contrast. What's it like now? And you know, what else did you guys do? You mentioned a few things. What else did you do to kind of get to this point in terms of healing and growing and yeah, kind of rebuilding the relationship, as you said. If you've struggled with unwanted sexual behavior like pornography, I highly recommend listening to our podcast series called Healing Sexual Brokenness. In this series, you'll get tactics and resources from experts to overcome that unwanted sexual behavior so you can find freedom.

It's so relevant for people like us who come from broken families and here's why. One expert found that 87 % of people with a sex addiction come from a broken family, almost nine out of 10. And so if you wanna listen, there's two ways to do so. One, on your podcast app, once you've selected our show, just go ahead and search Healing Sexual Brokenness, Healing Sexual Brokenness, and you'll see the episodes from that series. Or you can just click the link in the show notes, which will bring you to restoredministry.com slash sexualbrokenness and you'll see all the episodes in that series as well.

So again, click the link in the show notes or just search healing sexual brokenness in your podcast app.

Heather (38:42)

Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll zoom out a little further than getting into the specifics of just dealing with that issue. I would say that that what happened there, I mean, Jake really was, I mean, just to wrap it up for people, he experienced like a really profound healing in that in that particular area. So the pornography stopped, you know, he struggling with that addiction stopped like over time. I mean, he stopped looking at it like the day he told me that was it. That was the last, know, and I'm like, how could

People are like, how can you believe that? He lied to y'all. How can you believe that that's true? You know, I know it's true. I know it is because I saw the transformation that occurred, but that wasn't really the issue. It was a symptom of other hurt and things that were going on for him. Like why pornography? Well, there's a whole story under that, as I kind of referred to before. Like he has a whole story of reasons why he was looking to that to fulfill deep longings in him.

wasn't about just like, well, this is so exciting, you know, or whatever. There was very deep longings from when he was a young boy that weren't fulfilled, you know, with bonding and attachment and parents and, you know, just all of that stuff. that really has been the bigger journey that both of us have been on, not just for him, but for me also, like I said, like I said at the beginning, you know, like I was starting to uncover my story. We started to have a language for one,

what healthy living looked like. Sometimes all we know is what we know, and there's a lot of dysfunction potentially in there. It's like, have to learn a new way that, wow, no, it isn't normal to live like this, and there is a new way that we can learn. So that's part of it. Then understanding our own stories, and a lot of that came through consistent counseling, like consistent counseling throughout. Also having good friends who also held this as important for them too. It's not like every single person.

were hanging out with was into this, but a few people close to us who are also doing the hard work of trying to become great people and trying to have great marriages and not settling for mediocre. ⁓ I was like, I want to live. I want to live the full life. I want to experience joy. And yeah, there's going to be a ton more sorrow that comes because life is really hard. Like, I really want to live it to the full. And so that's going to take some work. That's going to take, you know, continual growing.

So part of it is looking to people who you can be inspired by, people who have gone through really difficult things, who can give you a framework for like, what does it look like to struggle and to suffer and why do we do it? And what is the hope that we have? why, you know, like having reasons why we can keep pressing forward. So I think that that was a lot of it too, but.

But the deeper work has been like layer after layer over years, like just uncovering new things and not that this is an obsession for us. We're living life and enjoying things and having kids and going out for dinner and doing all the things that people do. But this was a priority for us was to keep working, keep healing and to begin to understand the language of our own heart and a language around healing.

and why things are the way they are. We became very curious about each other's stories. We made space. Like me finally hearing Jake's whole story one day, like I referred to at the beginning, that was so powerful. It really was. Even though I had heard the bits and pieces, there was one day we were in a counseling session and he said, just, yeah, Jake, I just want to invite you just to share with Heather, like from the beginning, what was happening in your story and in your life.

there's something even for the one telling it when you have space to share your whole story things will strike you in a way that maybe they haven't before and i remember him being moved to tears i sat there just yes just so many tears listening to the pain of his story imagining him as a little boy and what a little boy would

desire and want and long for. And it just gave me like a ton of love and compassion for him and same, then he did that for me as well. And to be able to receive that from the other person is healing in and of itself. ⁓ So yeah, think we now, we have a very deep understanding of each other now at this point.

we're still doing the work. Sorry to tell people, you know, they might be like, is it over yet? How many years have you been married? 25 almost, like in a couple of weeks, we'll be 25 years married. And we still have been doing some intense marriage counseling as it goes deeper and we realize how much we still protect ourselves in belief that the other person might hurt us and these are old wounds beyond each other, you know, they just keep popping up. And so, the work for us now is can we learn to not see each other as a threat?

when we're in a vulnerable position, ⁓ in a vulnerable state in our heart. And that's been very, very good, very fruitful.

Joey (43:30)

Beautiful. No, I love it. I like to think of healing as similar to like fitness, physical health. It's something that's ongoing. It's not like you ever wake up and say, all right, did my last workout today. No longer need to eat a healthy meal. Like I'm good. So it's beautiful to hear even you guys who've done a lot of intense work you're staying at, you're continuing with. And I think it's a good lesson for all of us. A few final questions here. I am curious.

Your thoughts, your advice for maybe a young person listening right now, because our audience is young people who come from divorced or dysfunctional families. Maybe they learned, this is a really common one for our audience, that mom or dad was having an affair or has an addiction to porn or whatever else. I'm curious what you say in particular to that young person who maybe just found that out, who's really like struggling with that.

Heather (44:16)

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the most important things is ⁓ you got to find someone to talk to. Like someone who can respectfully hold that space and that heavy weight with you. So sometimes we'll just tell a friend and that's good. Like you can do that too. But I think it is important to find someone who knows how to help you navigate your way through it. That's been so incredibly powerful for me. And it's like a relief.

when you're sitting in the room with a good counselor or someone that you feel like they can bear the weight of this with you. Like that is so powerful so that it doesn't just become a secret that festers, you know? I think when we keep things in the dark, boy, they get so much bigger than they need to. That it's powerful to be able to say it out loud to someone. It's powerful to, I think in the work that, you know, Jake and I do with people to be people who will sit there and hold it with someone. I remember even my therapist saying to me three years ago, she said, Heather,

I am going to hold this for you. Like even when you leave this office, I am holding this with you. You know, you're not in this alone anymore. And that knowledge alone was like life changing for me. So I think that that is really, really important just to bring some wise people into it. And I also just, if you're willing, obviously I'm a believer in God, you know, but, and God is love. So however we can open ourselves up to a love that is bigger than us, a love that

far exceeds any human failure. That is the most healing thing that I've experienced in my life, and that is available to anyone and everyone. There is a love that is faithful and true and good and kind and gentle and respectful, who honors, who will never betray. And for me, that has absolutely changed my entire life. Because then also Jake's failures or even my parents' failures

or whatever, like they don't have the same bearing weight, they can still hurt me, but that's not the only love that is available to me. Love that fails isn't the only love that's available to all of us.

Joey (46:24)

So good. I did want to share on that note some of a couple quotes from the talk that you gave recently when we were at the conference together. You said this, said, we can read self-help books, we can write self-help books, but nothing will heal truly like the presence of Jesus. This is the most transformative thing I've experienced in my life, sitting in the abyss, being loved by Him.

Heather (46:48)

Well said. I'm like, wow, I said that I believe that, you know, I was like, whoever said that I believe that. No, I could. It's moving me to tears right now. It's true. It's a hundred percent true. And it's not a manufactured story that I'm telling myself to feel better because I've experienced it. It's not just a thought in my mind or a belief that I have. I've experienced the safety, the love, the peace, the comfort of him.

of his presence, and, like I'm saying there, in the abyss. So it's like in the midst of the darkness and the pain. Sometimes we think to experience relief, all of that has to be gone. And the reality is, in certain parts of our life, it's not going to stop. You know, there is always going to be things. It might be this particular thing will stop, or this particular thing, you know, gets healed, but there's always going to be circumstances that are painful where we suffer here on this earth.

is the reality in which we live. There's always a sickness, you know, a break in a relationship, some area of unforgiveness or something that will cause us distress. So it's like that relationship with God, having Him be stable for me in the midst of it all, yeah, it is the most transformative thing.

Joey (48:07)

Yeah, no, I love it. I mean, there's so much we can say here. And over close to end of our time, but I think just this whole lesson that we feel like you said that we need to get our act together that we need to kind of come to God polished and in our tuxedos and our best stress and

you know, I think it'd be further from the truth. And yeah, I loved like the lessons from you and other speakers this weekend, just talking about like, no, actually God just wants to like, not just go to those messy dark places. He wants like rush into that. Like I got the image of like a firefighter running into a burning building or, you know, a special operator who's like kicking in a door, going to like the most dangerous places you can imagine, the places where you really wouldn't want to go. That's what God wants to do. And I know there's people listening right now who may be resistant to a relationship with God, but

Um, yeah, I think, like you said, the human level of healing, it's helpful. It's there for a reason. I think it's, it's a beautiful thing. Like you said, talking to people, even if there's no experience of grace or God, like that, that can be helpful and that's a good thing, but you're going to hit a ceiling eventually. And so that's where I love this invitation to, you know, let the ultimate healer into those.

Heather (49:12)

Yeah, and you know, that's been probably the thing that I've encouraged for even my own children a lot. Like, I love my kids with all my heart. I would never want to hurt them. But I know I do. And I have. And I will. You know, it's not intentional, you know, for me, but I just know that I will fail. I will miss things. I won't see it. I won't be as tender with their heart as they need me to be in certain moments because I'm just missing it. I'm distracted. I'm, you know, focused on other things. And so

know, like I've said to them, obviously, I want to be able to repair, like hopefully they can come to me and tell me those things. also, I want them to know a God who does see them when I don't, who can restore all the things in their heart that have been broken, whether it be from me or Jake or anybody else in there.

Joey (49:54)

Love that. Heather, could talk forever. Maybe we'll have you back at another point, but in closing, I'm just curious ⁓ what maybe healing resources you typically recommend. know you have a podcast if you tell us about that and how people can just view all the resources that you offer and any other you'd recommend.

Heather (50:09)

I have a podcast called Abiding Together. It's with ⁓ my two best friends, Michelle Bensinger and sister Miriam James-Hydland. And sister Miriam, in particular, a lot of people might know her. She has a great book on healing called Loved As I Am, just her personal story of healing. so we end up talking about it, and Michelle, you know, she's, I've been friends with Michelle for many, many years, and we all are just deeply committed to the healing work. So it just comes up a lot, like in our talk, in our conversations, it's very vulnerable.

And we really are sharing a lot from the heart. And I think that's helpful sometimes to just hear other people who are journeying what that looks like and we're very different from each other, which I think is good. Jake also has a podcast called Restore the Glory. That's really helpful in just even understanding what healing is. They have a great little series on, it's called The Anatomy of a Wound. And that's like, it's like, does a wound occur? What is a wound? How does that, you know, turn into other things in our life?

I think that's just great in growing and like, ⁓ I'm starting to understand how this works and then also how healing works. So they cover a lot of topics. And then I would just say, you know, there's obviously in a saturated time of the world right now, there's so much. So I would say instead of choosing a million things, just choose one or two things that are that are helpful and be really sit with them. Let them get deep into you and just begin the work, you know.

And if you don't have anyone to help you, I would just say, if you're a praying person, pray that God would provide. But there is a lot to receive, even if it's not, you know, like the perfect counselor or whatever, it might be a number of different people who can offer you pieces, different parts that will then, you know, turn into your own journey of healing and restoration.

Joey (51:53)

Yeah. And you might be surprised who is in your life right now. Who might be able to help you. That's what it has always kind of been the case with me. ⁓ and even, know, when I haven't been able to find maybe a, ⁓ in my past, like a good therapist, there are mentors who are able to kind of step into that role and really guide me. So totally second that. And I love the idea of focusing. We're out of time. ⁓ I want to give you the final word and thank you again for coming on the show. It's been ⁓ great having you here and yeah, always love listening to you and hearing your wisdom and your realness. Like you said, even rawness, it's so, it's so

good and valuable, especially in kind of the fake world that we live in. What final encouragement, what final advice would you offer to everyone listening, especially if they maybe feel broken, they want to heal, but they feel stuck?

Heather (52:32)

I guess just a word of hope. Now, obviously, we've already talked about situations that might be dangerous that people need to get out of, so I'm not talking about that. But I think just in the journey of healing and the struggles of life, I really do believe it will get better. You never know when breakthrough is right around the corner. It is like in the movies sometimes. think movies speak to the bigger story that is real. They're just like echoes in our heart. That's why they move us so deeply, because they're saying something that we know is true.

Like, so many stories look darkest before the dawn. You know, it's those types of things that we've heard over and over again, but there are so many people's lives, real people, that also speak that truth. It will get better. Not everything is going to crush you completely, you know? It is amazing, the spirit of people that is so resilient, and then what God can do in the midst, I think, we have no idea what God can do with broken things. I'm a big believer in that.

that is the kind of God we have. He is at his best when things are broken, when they're dead, when they're shattered. He is the one who can bring life to all of that.

Joey (53:43)

Like I mentioned, I recently got to see Heather and Jake at a conference and just absolutely love them both. They're amazing people and I definitely encourage you to just learn more from them. Listen to their podcasts. You can check out all the links in the show notes to get access to that. They're amazing people and they have a lot to say when it comes to healing and growth. That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find.

In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#139: Dating or Marrying Someone from an Intact vs Broken Family | Paul & Maggie Kim

So many of us from broken families end up dating or marrying someone from an intact family. But that presents challenges, which we discuss in this episode with an amazing married couple where one spouse comes from a broken family and the other is from an intact family. We also discuss questions like:

• What did you fear about marriage? Maggie opens up about her fear of someone cheating on her.

• How have you handled conflict and how has marriage brought you joy?

• How do you choose the right person who won’t change after the wedding?

If you’re from a broken family dating or marrying someone from an intact family, or vice versa, this episode is for you..

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: ~One of the struggles that our audience has is that they've expressed this fear to us where they end up marrying someone they think is solid. They think is good, but then they change ~[00:00:00]

Paul: when we got married, we had to learn how to argue. Well, you know, arguments are not a sign that a marriage is in trouble.

It's the inability to resolve the conflict. That is the sign of trouble.

Maggie: It's only through arguing. In a healthy way and resolving conflict that we get to truly grow in intimacy and to learn more about each other.

Joey: I remember Father Mike Schmitz saying that in our culture, we've reduced love to romance and romance to sex.

Paul: Love is a decision. It's willing the good of the other. Happiness isn't an end in itself. And that's what most of Western culture is doing. They want to arrive at happiness like it's a destination.

Joey: How has marriage brought you guys joy?

Maggie: Marriage for me has been so healing. Knowing that I can be my most vulnerable, ugly self and this man chooses to love me every day, ~chooses to be committed to ~

Joey: Welcome to The Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Panerelli. If you come from a divorced or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and And build [00:01:00] healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

Today, I'm joined by Paul and Maggie Kim. Paul is one of America's top Catholic youth speakers, reaching audiences of all ages across 50 States and 16 countries for over two decades. He's the creator of the online course, a Catholic guide to adulting, a founder of the triumph men's conference, a musical artist.

And his videos have over 10 million views. With a bachelor's in philosophy, a master's in marriage and family therapy, and experience as a therapist, missionary, and youth minister, he impacts over 40, 000 people worldwide every year. Maggie is a Catholic convert since 2013 and a registered nurse who has a passion for fertility awareness and all things motherhood.

In her free time, she enjoys the thrillers, desserts, and movie nights with coffee. Paul and Maggie live in Austin, Texas with their children. So many of us who come from broken families end up dating or marrying someone from an intact family, but that presents a lot of challenges, which we discuss in this episode with an amazing married couple, where one spouse comes from a broken family and the other is from an intact family.

We [00:02:00] also discuss questions like, was it difficult for you to open up to Paul about the problems in your family? What did you fear about marriage? Maggie opens up about her fear of someone cheating on her. How have you handled conflict and how has your marriage brought you joy? How do you choose the right person to Who won't change after the wedding.

And finally, you'll hear about a resource for young adults as a new year's resolution or any time of the year. And so if you come from a broken family and you're dating someone or marrying someone from an intact family or vice versa, this episode is for you. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith.

And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while It's not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you need to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode.

And with that, here's the conversation, Paul, Maggie, great to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.

Paul: Thank you.

Maggie: Thanks for having us.

Joey: As we usually do, we'll just dive right in. Uh, Maggie, when you came on the show previously, that was episode, uh, 64, for anyone who wants to go revisit that. You, you shared [00:03:00] really openly about how your parents divorce had affected you.

But Paul, I'd like a little bit of context on your family, if that's okay. What was your family like growing up?

Paul: Uh, I do not come from a family of parents who divorced, thankfully. But, you know, like everyone's background, my family was, You know, far from being perfect, right? Unless, uh, your parents names are St.

Joseph and the Blessed Mother, chances are it's going to have some problems, right? And so, yeah, I mean, born to Korean immigrants, just like Maggie was, and being born in Southern California, being raised Korean, growing up in America, having sort of like this bicultural expectation, which was very fascinating, very difficult to kind of navigate.

As I'm comparing myself to my peers and I'm seeing how my parents are raising me. And I'm like, why? And now as a, as a grown man, obviously I think I have a better appreciation for culture, for diversity, for things that frankly are good in every culture. And also identifying things that are not so good [00:04:00] and having a deeper appreciation from where I come from.

I mean, thanks be to God, my, my parents, they, they tried their best, like every parent is trying. I think as you get older, you come to realize that parenting isn't as easy as you thought it would be. Um, we have six kids now, and you know, when I give talks at parishes and events and things like this, when I'm talking about marriage and family, I always tell them, you know, the ever trending phrases that parents universally say.

When you become my age, you'll understand what it's like or what I'm saying. You know, my parents just sounded more Korean than, you know, Midwestern. But at the end of the day, yeah, there there's a truth to that. And so while, you know, I grew up. With some levels of resentment and frustration with my parents and maybe their, their shortcomings, failures, et cetera, I also see that one, they were trying their best and two.

I also see like the [00:05:00] things that they did well and the things that they wanted for me and my siblings. And, and so all that to say. I think the ever present challenge for parents, at least those who, who really want to be intentional is, you know, I'd like to do this better for my kids. And with the full realization that you bring along with you the wounds and the struggles and, and the brokenness that you experienced.

And so there's almost like this unspoken reality that when you become an adult, when you become a parent, when you become a spouse, You're also unpacking all of this stuff simultaneously. And it's, it's very difficult. It's very challenging. And not only that, but because we get so very busy in our culture, you know, working, raising the kids, doing all the things on the to do list, the noble task of really delving in and trying to heal from like certain issues or face the problems that you know, are kind of a feature of youth, you A feature of imperfect families to set the time and have the [00:06:00] wherewithal to be like, I need to work on this and I'm going to work on it is also another challenge.

And I don't know, depending on, you know, I think thankfully in 2024, I mean, despite all the rampant mental illness, which I'm convinced is a part of our, our culture, I'm not going to get too into that right now. But what I will say is the silver lining is people are aware that this is a resource. And I think people are more apt to maybe take advantage of this sort of thing.

And I think it's, I think it's very important, obviously I'm biased, but being a Catholic, you know, ensuring that the therapist has some sort of level of faith. Because even in psychology, the world of psychology, morally speaking, it can kind of be all over the place. Because like any other study, it's, uh, it was a huge spectrum of beliefs in that field.

Also,

Joey: thanks for sharing about your family. And I couldn't agree more with like the, just the messiness of our culture. And I think, I know you guys would agree, like so much of it does send back to the breakdown of the family. And so it's so important. I think like you guys are a beautiful example of this, that we, [00:07:00] you know, Try to heal our brokenness, seek healing to build virtue.

So we can go on and what I hear you saying, Paul build, you know, healthier relationships, beautiful families, strong families, holy families. And so I'm excited to dive into that deeper. I want to get your advice on some things as well that I know our audience cares deeply about. Um, but I was curious, I know all of our female listeners will want me to ask this question.

Like, tell us a little bit about your love story. If you can give us a quick version of that, uh, Maggie, I assume that Paul's. Dashing good looks were the thing that drew you to him, but I'm curious, like, it was his dashing good

Maggie: looks and his corny dad jokes.

Yeah. So we actually met at a wedding. Um, a friend of ours was getting married and, um, he had asked Paul to be the MC at his reception. And so he, yeah, he was on the stage, cracking jokes and performing music and just kind of charming the crowd. And I was. It's definitely charmed. And I was like, I hope this guy talks to me by the end of the night.

Um, and

Paul: I did, [00:08:00]

Joey: did you notice her earlier? Had you known like who she was?

Paul: You know, what's funny is at the wedding ceremony, she actually sat in the pew right in front of me. And, um, yeah, she, she walked right in front of, she sat down and I was like, Oh, she's kind of cute, you know, trying to be focused on,

Paul and Maggie: I only

Paul: got a side view.

I didn't see like the full, your full face. So, you know, profile pictures can be a little misleading, right?

But, um, she sat down and then, you know, the wedding ceremony started. Later on at the reception, I noticed her again and she had a beautiful smile and yes, she was laughing at my jokes. So I thought what a woman of great intellect and taste to acknowledge greatness. No kidding. I'm kidding. And so You know, I approached her and introduced myself and then later on, um, my pickup line, if you will, it wasn't really a pickup line.

It was just an [00:09:00] intro was, um, I noticed she had like tattoos on her shoulder. So in my mind, I'm like, this, this is going to go one of two ways. Either she's like a crazed party girl, which I'm too old for, or like, you know, I, or there'll be an interesting story. And so like, I asked what's the story behind your tattoo.

And that was kind of the intro.

Paul and Maggie: And

Paul: so, you know, I. Tried to hang out with her, get to know her, dance with her, and she was kind of like, acting so demure, so cutesy, and running off, you know, and playing hard to get, but little did I know that there was like an ex boyfriend of hers that was there, um, and so there was like all this drama.

Like, it was like a storm cloud that was brewing around me to the point where later on, a friend of mine who was mutual friends with all of the ex, also the ex boyfriend and some of his friends, apparently there was such a commotion for them seeing this rando, like, try to get with the ex girlfriend that one of the guys was like, should we jump him?

Should we jump him in the back? [00:10:00] So I am glad that I didn't get. sucker punched in the bathroom that night. Needless to say, um, you know, I asked for her number before the night ended. And it was interesting because on the way out, my faith was very important to me at that time. So as I was walking her out to the parking lot, I asked her what church to go to.

And she said like mosaic or something like this. And I'm like, that doesn't sound Catholic. And, uh, this might be a bit of an issue moving forward, you know? And once again, I have lots of friends who are Protestant and obviously like, I think there's a lot in common that we have with all Christian believers, which I think is great and important.

And I feel like, yeah, there needs to be a lot more dialogue because half the time when I post anything remotely Catholic, you know, all the people come out of the woods and with pitchforks saying, you know, you Catholics, you worship idols, you worship Mary, goat sacrificing, you know, that's not Save yourself.

You don't need Jesus. Blah, blah, blah. You know? And it's like, no, no, [00:11:00] no, it's not it at all. And so, um, anyways, our, our relationship began and, you know, we're having some really great dates and then naturally the conversation of faith comes up and she tried to break up with me a couple of times because, you know, I'm Catholic and.

Her bias was just so strong, but we had great conversations and, um, I was starting out my ministry at the time and she was coming with me to presentations and churches and prayer events. And, and honestly, God was kind of doing the heavy lifting, showing her that maybe her presumptions about Catholicism were.

Misinformed. And, and I think that opened up the door to just allowing also Maggie to experience the beauty of our faith and very long story short, she joined our CIA, became Catholic right before we got married. And, and, uh, now we've been married 11 years and we've just been blessed with our, our six little baby.

Yeah. Well, at the time of this recording, it'll be like almost half a year ago. And, and so, um, or at the time of. When people hear this in the future, [00:12:00] so we're blessed. Beautiful.

Joey: I love it. Maggie, anything you'd add about the story?

Maggie: I mean, yeah, that's kind of like the short version of it. I think, you know, along with the hurdle of figuring out how are we going to practice our faith as a married couple?

And as a family, there was also. just a lot of fears and wounds that would come up. And I think, you know, Paul mentioned that I had broken up with him a couple of times or tried to break up with him. Um, and it was the religion aspect was, you know, a part of that, but I think it was also me trying to for lack of better words, like take control of the situation and leave the relationship before it got too hard, before it got too scary.

And, you know, like just the fears of like, how will this work? Like, how will this marriage last if we do end up getting married? So a lot of those questions were also coming up for me and the way that I dealt with it was by trying to run away. And thank, thank God that [00:13:00] this guy wouldn't let me. And yeah, we learned how to deal with those fears.

Joey: Beautiful. And we've heard that a lot. I think it's a trend for people like us who come from divorced, broken families, where I remember hearing the story of a woman who I think she was engaged three times. So like good guys, like these weren't bad guys, but she had just such an intense fear of love marriage, like her marriage ending, like her parents had that she broke it off each time.

So that kind of element of self sabotage. So that's beautiful. We, as we're able to work through that, I want to go deeper on the fear theme. So Maggie had shared previously as well. In addition to what you just shared, yeah, you feared marriage. And I can certainly relate to that coming from the film that I did.

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To see what Dakota offers, go to dakota Lane fitness.com. Dakota is actually giving away for free his PDF Guide, the Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid. You can download that@dakotalanefitness.com slash restored. Again, that's dakota lane fitness.com/restored. Or just click the link in the show notes. And so I'm curious, like, was there anything else in particular that you were afraid of when it came to marriage?

Maggie: Yeah, I think something in particular was this idea that I had been taught my whole life that men will always be unfaithful at some point. You know, that was the case for my parents marriage and [00:15:00] in a lot of, you know, my friends parents marriages. And yeah, it was just kind of like, it seemed like it was the norm, like if you watched.

Movies or TV shows or like, you know, a book, like a typical story. And there's seems to be infidelity involved at some point. And so that was a real fear of mine going into marriage. And it was something that I was just told growing up, but this is like just typical, a typical man's behavior that men have quote unquote needs.

And that they aren't capable of committing to one person. Like this was the message that I was told growing up by friends and family. So that was really ingrained in my head and in my heart. And I honestly, before meeting Paul, I never even like came across the idea of like chastity and purity and, You know, fidelity in marriage.

So that was, yeah, something that was hard to get over.

Joey: Totally makes sense to me. I mean, if that's like what you thought the future held for you, it was kind of your fate [00:16:00] then yeah. Why would you want to go down that path? But thankfully, like you said, there's another option. Paul, I'm curious from your point of view.

Was it difficult to kind of understand where Maggie was coming from with a lot of the brokenness within her family? And if so, you know, and her fears and struggles in particular, it was difficult to understand those and, uh, what maybe helped you understand and like help her walk through those?

Paul: Um, it wasn't so much during our dating.

That it seems like a particular issue for us. I think it's when we got married and you know, naturally marriage is beautiful and it's a gift, but there's quite a learning curve, right? Where, you know, we hadn't moved in together prior to marriage, right? The good old fashioned way.

Paul and Maggie: And

Paul: on a complete side note, there are studies that basically completely secular studies that show that the divorce rate goes up.

If they move in together prior to marriage, and it's very fascinating why that might be, but we wanted to ensure that obviously that we weren't doing things to weaken the foundation of our, of our future and present relationship. But, um, when we got married, we [00:17:00] realized, yeah, like most couples do, we had to learn how to argue well, because the reality is, even though you're on cloud nine and you get to live with this person you love, and you just got married.

It's like, wow, not only do we have to figure out what way the toilet paper is going, we also have to figure out, like, where is this anger coming from? Why is this person like flipping out about something that seemed inconsequential? But, you know, the reality is behind every trigger is a story. And that story often was a part of, you know, This person's life, my wife's life way before I even showed up and vice versa.

And so we had to learn that there were like wounds and there were, there were issues that stemmed from the brokenness that we now needed to unpack as a couple. And, um, you know, naturally in the moment, especially that first year. You know, it was kind of rough figuring out how to do [00:18:00] this. Well, trying not to take things personally, wondering like in moments of heated, like emotion, like, Oh my gosh, like, I don't know how to navigate this.

And then, you know, once the calm is there and, and there's more, uh, reason that sets in for both of us and we're empathetic and we're listening, it's like, Oh, that makes perfect sense. Why you felt that way. But here, this is the truth of the matter. And so we need to work this out. And, um, so I think that's a process pretty universally for every couple, but Maggie coming from her background and her family history, yeah, it made sense why she, you know, found certain situations or conversations difficult.

And, um, I'd like to think over the past 11 years, you know, we're not perfect, but we've gotten a lot better at being able to. Not only understand each other, but also to better argue because, you know, arguments are not a sign that a marriage is in trouble. It's the inability to resolve the conflict that is the sign of trouble.

And, um, the irony of [00:19:00] course is most couples get married. Like as a Catholic, the joke is, you know, if a person has a call to be a priest, he is in seminary for seven to nine, 10 years. formation on the daily, you know, and for the most important vocation of his life before ordination and married couples, you know, in their preparation for the most important vocation of their life, it's like four meetings with the pastor and one like lousy retreat.

And it's like, good luck. And it's like, I don't know how, yeah, I don't know how, uh, equipped a lot of couples are, and it just, it's a roll of the dice depending on what you were taught as a kid, how your parents modeled it for you, what you've done to like proactively go out and learn about. How do I deal with these issues in my life and in other people's lives?

Have I done the hard work of like identifying, wow, these are areas in my life where I really need growth and I need to stop medicating, self medicating, or running away, or whatever. And so this is why, you know, [00:20:00] like love and The emotions behind romance, they're very powerful drivers, obviously, for human beings to want to get married and procreate.

And I mean, this is how God designed us, right? It's how he designed humans, but sometimes the rose colored glasses, right? They prevent people from understanding what is the preparation that I actually need to make in order to make the marriage work beyond the wedding day. Because in our Western culture, it's like, Oh, it's about the dress.

I say yes to the dress. I'm like, Oh, the wedding's going to be amazing. And oh my God, honeymoon equally amazing. And then it's like, yeah, here comes real life coming at you fast. Yeah. And so like, obviously as people of faith, it's the understanding that Marriage as a vocation is meant to accomplish one particular thing.

And that is to help one look more like Christ. And the way Christ looked was best described in Ephesians when St. Paul wrote that husbands love your [00:21:00] wife, like Christ loved his bride, the church. And the way he did that is he died, died to self, he endured suffering and torment and incredible adversity. In order to not only save his bride, but to heal her, restore her.

And I don't want anyone thinking, oh, well, naturally that's the chauvinistic patriarchal way of thinking like you're at the savior, but no, that's not what I'm saying, but Christ indeed showed us men and women as a model, what sacrificial love looks like. And at the end of the day, if people are not aware that marriage takes sacrifice and love, which is not a feeling.

That's gas. Love is a decision. It's willing the good of the other. And it, you know, once again, that that's the real stuff.

Joey: No, so good. I love that. And I remember father Mike Schmitz saying that in our culture, we've reduced, uh, love to romance and romance to sex. And so I think like [00:22:00] you're saying that there's such this expectation that love and marriage in particular is just meant for your own happiness.

And I love what you're saying. Like, That's actually not the purpose of marriage. Like there's happiness within marriage and that's beautiful. It's good. Like I've experienced that myself in my own marriage, but it's not the purpose. Like the purpose, like you said, is to make you the best version of yourself, to make you holy and, and of course to have children from them.

So, so good. And yeah, feel free to jump in, but I love the two, the two takeaways I had from you when it came to like dealing with the conflict, we'll get into that maybe a little bit more later too, is like having a curiosity about your spouse. Like I think so often, especially if you've been dating for a while, it's easy to think like, You know, I know more or less everything about this person.

And then you get married and you know, you realize like, actually, there's a lot more I need to learn. And so that curiosity, I think is big. And then the empathy, of course, as well, some of the lessons I pulled from that, but you were going to say something.

Paul: Yeah. You know, it was interesting. I came across a quote recently from St.

Thomas Aquinas, who is one of the most influential philosophers and theologians of Christianity. And one of his quotes, it is happiness is secured [00:23:00] through virtue. It is not an end in itself, but a by product of the pursuit of the good. So I'm gonna say that one more time. He says, quote, happiness is secured through virtue.

It is not an end in itself, but a by product of the pursuit of good. Of the good. Uh, St. Thomas was all about figuring out, you know, especially giving props to the ancient Greek philosophers who were also asking these profound questions of what is happiness? What is the pursuit that truly fulfills human beings?

Um, how does one attain this ultimate happiness or this greatest good? Right. And even the Greek philosophers, you know, while they didn't have. Faith in Christ or an understanding of theology. They just based on pure human reason, kind of came up with the fact that it's through this practice of virtue and according to the catechism of the Catholic church, virtue is the habitual and firm disposition towards the good.

I love that. Cause virtue, it's not a feeling, right. You know, as St. Thomas Aquinas was saying, [00:24:00] happiness is in an end in itself. And that's what most of Western culture is doing. They're trying to figure out like they want to arrive at happiness. Like it's a destination. Like I just want to be happy, but they don't understand that happiness isn't just like a momentary fleeting moment of emotion.

And that's. Why I think so many people are disillusioned, even with sex, and even with like, the hookup culture, is that they're chasing this happiness, but they realize they have it momentarily, and then it's gone. It's like trying to catch water in your hand. And they equate happiness with sex, or love with sex, and then the sex is, is done, or maybe it gets old, or people just like use each other, and lust never satisfies.

And then they're just like disillusioned. They're disillusioned with all of it. Whereas St. Thomas is like, Hey, happiness is secured through virtue. And by practicing this firm disposition towards the good, as I try to be a better person, as I try to be more loving, more sacrificial, more self controlled, as I learned not to give into my base desires, as I [00:25:00] learned to be devoted, as I learned to make my life a gift to others, you realize, wait.

The very thing I was hungry for, the by product, right? This happiness is what I actually achieve. And, and so even in marriage, it's kind of like that. If you just want to be happy and, you know, sadly with a lot of couples who end up getting divorced, you know, what do they say? They say, I wasn't, I'm not happy anymore.

I'm not happy. And understandably, that's how they feel. The question is like, did they put in the work? Were they chasing the by product or were they actually doing the work? The difficult task of practicing that virtue and not giving up so as to then arrive at the very thing they wanted this whole time.

Because if we're just chasing the byproduct, namely happiness, which is fleeting, then it's just that it's fleeting. And so without really this kind of mature understanding of what love is and what commitment looks like. [00:26:00] And also just kind of this greater and this deeper motivation too of, of not giving up.

Because honestly, like without the grace of God and the grace of the sacrament that comes through marriage, like I don't, I don't particularly know how people do it. To be quite honest, like it's not within our human ability to like do marriage. Well, like without the grace of God, like forget about it.

Like it's, it's too hard. It really like, what's the point without the grace of God? So go I, but whereas when we have a foundation, a starting point, when we have an ideal, when we have a Lord and savior and God who shows us the way. And who is there not only to encourage us, but he's there with us, even in the suffering and the struggle, then like everything changes.

And even in those moments of difficulty, we find within ourselves, like the strength and the grace and the ability to forgive, to see the best in one another, to [00:27:00] remember, like, Hey, we made a commitment. And this isn't trivial. This isn't based on my feelings. This is like a lifelong thing. And I need to keep my mind and my heart focused on Christ so that I can indeed fulfill the vows that I made at the altar that day.

And, um, you may have heard this story, but in Croatia, there's like this particular town that has like a nearly 0 percent divorce rate and a particular ritual that they do at every marriage in that town is they pick a crucifix and when they exchange vows at the altar, they, they put the crucifix in their hands and they exchanged the vows.

Grasping the crucified Lord who laid down his life so that his bride, his spouse could live. This couple is now clutching that crucifix, that reminder of what Christ sacrificed for us while exchanging these vows to their beloved so that indeed in good times in bad and sickness and health, it is till death do they part.

And so, you know, the tradition continues where after the [00:28:00] wedding and the ceremony, they, they hang the crucifix up. in a prominent place in their home so that indeed in good times they can kneel before the lord and thank him and praise him for all the gifts and when they're having like a crap hits the fan fight they can also kneel before that crucifix and say lord if you don't help me we're gonna kill each other that's true i mean

Joey: no it's it's a marriage is a tall order and now i love everything you said So good.

So many things I could comment on, but I wanted to, um, ask a question I know is on a lot of the minds of our listeners going back a little bit. Um, Maggie, I'm curious if there was any sort of fear or hesitation to kind of let Paul in and let him see the reality of your family. Um, I know I felt this when my wife and I were dating, I kind of wanted to shield her from the brokenness and the dysfunction.

And I would even like on a practical level, maybe not tell her things that were going on. Cause I was like, I just, Don't want you to

Paul and Maggie: know

Joey: that that's at least the heroic, heroic version of the story. I was probably just too scared to tell her, but, but yeah, I had that experience. If you, you [00:29:00] know, kind of struggle with that and if there was anything that helped you then open up and show him the truth.

Maggie: You know, I, it's funny, I wish I had been a little bit more like you in that sense and been a little bit more wise about it because I think I did. Kind of have this tendency to just unload and share, you know, just really hard things are really terrible things that I had witnessed or, um, even like as I was, um, dating Paul and preparing for marriage, I was also kind of going through my own journey of healing and seeking therapy and processing a lot of what had happened in my childhood.

And naturally I'm coming to my. You know, boyfriend or fiance at the time and sharing a lot of these things. Um, and then even, you know, as we got married, a lot of that just kept unfolding and I had to be really careful and I had to learn to not share everything to every, you know, every detail and to really also protect.

I guess like the reputation of my parents too, um, because [00:30:00] there, there were moments where I did share things like this had happened to me when I was this age, or I remember witnessing this thing. And then while I'm kind of learning to heal and forgive them through the processing of like what had happened, Paul is like now experiencing it for the first time through, through my eyes.

And so I think we had to kind of find that balance of, Like sharing, but knowing how much to share so that he can also, you know, love my parents and, and see the best in them and not just see them through this lens of hurt and woundedness. So, yeah, so I think I kind of had like a little bit opposite of what you went through, um, where I had to learn how to like, relook back a little bit.

Joey: Totally makes sense how there's like kind of two ends of the spectrum and I maybe didn't share enough. And like you said, maybe there was some oversharing on your end, but yeah, I think if I had to choose though, there's something I think better about having the open communication, but I totally get the struggles that could come from that.

So, um, so no, that, I think that's helpful. And I, No, that our listeners could probably relate to both [00:31:00] experience, different listeners to different experiences. There's so much we could say about that, but I really want to get to like, kind of this lightning round of asking you guys advice. Um, so is that okay if we transition to that?

Sweet. Okay. So you can be as brief as thorough as you want. Um, one of the struggles that our audience has is that. That they've expressed this fear to us where they end up marrying someone they think is solid. They think is good, but then they change, they become not the person that you married. A lot of them have witnessed that in their own parents marriages.

And so I'm curious, like what's your advice for like really vetting the person and making sure that, um, you know, they are virtuous and they are the right fit for

Maggie: you. Um, man. Yeah, that's a good question. I think that's why the dating process and the engagement process is so important. And it's important to really ask the hard questions during that discernment period.

And yeah, I, I think, I think it was important for us to not just make a decision based off of our feelings at the time, but really diving into like, [00:32:00] what are your core beliefs? What, what is like, what is going to be the foundation of our family? What is that going to look like? And, you know, leaning on our faith and That helped a lot with, um, just discerning, like, is this the man that I want to marry?

I don't know. Do you have anything to add to that?

Paul: Yeah, I think I agree with everything she just said. And just, yeah, there, there are a couple like non negotiables for me. And that was like, one, I want to be able to raise our future family in the faith. Right. Particularly like I wanted us going to the same church and I wanted our relationship to be Christ centered.

I wanted to obviously know that we were in agreement with values. worldview, like obviously there, there has to be like a level of alignment with worldview. Otherwise it's going to be a pretty difficult road ahead, not only worldview, but just values in general. And so, you know, naturally there have been some like relationships dating wise, where there are some things that we aligned on, but then there were obvious red flags or things that we didn't align on.

And so the [00:33:00] reality is like, once those feelings and emotions fade, which they will, it's not going to be like a flamethrower of romance, like all the time in marriage, it feels that way sometimes when you're dating and it can really blind you from asking the more important questions of like, is this a person who I'm comfortable, like entrusting my future kids to, you know, like a question I've heard that, which is a really good discernment point for people who are dating, but If I had a future daughter for the ladies out there, would I be comfortable with her dating a guy like this?

And same thing for the guys. If I had a future son, would I be comfortable with him dating a girl like this? And um, it's a good question, you know, cause it's, it's one thing to just like each other or be able to just, you know, get along for the most part, have meals together, do fun things. feel romantic, but like for the marathon, which marriage is, it's like, you got to make sure that you're really aligned and not only your beliefs, but your expectations.

And obviously expectations can change beliefs can change as well in [00:34:00] different ways, but there just has to be a foundation. That's bigger than just like how you feel towards each other. There has to be a common mission, right? There's this really controversial Bible verse. Where St. Paul writes, um, wives, be submissive, be obedient, be submissive to your husband,

And most, uh, the most eye rolls that happen from women in the congregation probably happen on that Sunday. But if you actually take apart the, the Greek word of submit. It's not what most Western women are thinking. It's submissio, which means to come under the mission of to submit. Doesn't mean like he gets to tell me whatever the heck I need to do.

It's like, no, because I love, and I believe in this man. And I realized that he has a vision and a mission for our family and our future family. Like I am willing to partner with him in that mission. And that's, that's vastly different than this kind of skewed vision of [00:35:00] like, Oh no, it's just a domineering thing.

It's a power struggle and this, that, and the other. I mean, no way. Like the joke is like, you know, scripturally speaking, men are called the head of the household. Right. But But women are, are the neck, they can turn the head this way. And that way I can close off the air supply. They can, you know, very, very influential.

So this is a partnership. You know, the head needs the neck. The neck needs the head.

Joey: No, 100%. If you come from a divorced or broken family, and maybe, you know, someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more.

All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry. com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.

Maggie: [00:36:00] Another practical thing that I wanted to bring up is the importance of addressing conflict in the relationship prior to marriage. And I, you know, whenever I would talk to, like, younger women who are dating or engaged and they'll say something like, Oh, I never fight with him. Like we just get along so well.

We never fight. We never argue while that sounds really nice. A part of me is also like, okay, but it's going to happen. Like it will happen in marriage. And what is that going to look like? How do you guys, how do you guys communicate? How do you guys resolve things like that is such a, it's a skill that needs to be practiced.

And you know, going into marriage, I viewed arguments and quote unquote fighting as. It's something that was really bad and a really bad sign and maybe like, I made a huge mistake and I really needed to flip my mindset and, and view arguments as a natural thing that occurs in marriage and see the good in it because it's only through arguing.[00:37:00]

in a healthy way and resolving conflict that we get to truly grow in intimacy and to learn more about each other. Um, and to, to do better, like the next time to anticipate what the other person needs and how they feel loved and. Yeah. So I going back to, you know, before marriage, when you're discerning if this is the right person for you, I would really highly encourage people to, uh, not just like look for a fight or pick a fight, but to really like go through that process of like, okay, we need to talk about some hard things or we need to address things that might be an issue and, and just, yeah.

And learn how to argue in a healthy way.

Paul: Yeah. Like the elephant in the room or. The inevitable conflict that the couple might very well see, but maybe out of discomfort, they don't want to like touch that with a 10 foot pole, right?

Maggie: They sweep it under the rug. Yeah. But

Paul: naturally you're, you're going to have to face that.

And so better for you to face that and learn how to grow through it [00:38:00] before you get married, then not deal with it, get married, realize that you guys have like overestimated your ability to do this, that now you're in a crisis. And so, once again, it's not to say that, like, you have to go through some, like, knock down, drag out fight in order to know that you're marriage worthy, but, like Maggie was saying, to not avoid the, um, the uncomfortable conversations.

Because like, yeah, in my experience when I was growing up to conflict was very difficult because there wasn't a whole lot of space, like growing up as a kid to be able to like verbalize my frustrations or disagreements with my parents. There was really no room in the culture that my parents grew up in, you know, they were just mirroring and modeling what they had experienced.

And so like, as a kid, conflict meant like, I just have to shut up and listen. I'm the one who's wrong every time. And so through different life experiences, through different formation, through different opportunities, living in community [00:39:00] with other people, like I had to learn rather quickly, you know, actually, like I have one of two choices.

Either I can be passive aggressive because I didn't really deal with the problem or address it, or I can just like straight up, like. Get into world war three with this person, right? I can go full on. Like I'm going to schedule an MMA match with you. Neither are necessarily helpful. Right. And so, and so even in marriage, it's, you know, like I said earlier in this, in this interview, like conflict, isn't a sign that your marriage is in trouble or your relationship, it's the inability to do so.

And so, yeah, there's a purely secular. Resource out there. That still is pretty good. Um, the Gottman Institute, Dr. John Gottman is like one of the foremost experts on marriage counseling. And he has like, basically pretty profound studies on being able to indicate whether a couple based on like one, one hour session are going to last or get divorced.

And the great indicator for him, you know, based on these couples he journeyed with for like decades was the [00:40:00] inability or the ability to In a healthy way, resolve conflict, and also the existence of what he called the four deadly horsemen in a marriage or a relationship. And based on the existence of those four deadly horsemen, he was able to indeed with over 90 percent accuracy, figure out if a couple was going to make it or not.

And so it was pretty wild, but once again, like resources like that, helping couples to like avoid certain pitfalls, uh, the four deadly horsemen, by the way, are criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt. And so like realizing that all of us, we, we might subscribe to one of these horsemen. And so in the context of an argument or disagreement, like if one person starts getting really critical, because maybe that was their upbringing and they were criticized all the time.

It just like as a defense mechanism to start criticizing, criticizing. And that's just not going to go well. Same thing with defensiveness. Like maybe they're just like, they're so overwhelmed in the conflict. They're like, I never did that. I didn't do that. You know, you're just, you're making up crazy stuff or stonewalling where a person gets so [00:41:00] emotionally flooded that they they're physically present, but they, they have left the conversation.

You know, they're just not engaging anymore. It's like a fight or flight thing. Right. And then contempt, which is kind of one of the most dangerous ones where just like all respect is gone for the other person. And so like, these are very easy things to turn to in the moment of conflict and during an argument and most couples.

They really, once again, unless you've done the work or you've had the practice or someone has mirrored or modeled this for you, or you've gone to counseling, or you've like not only read the books, but you've sought to put this into practice. This does not come naturally. It does not come easy. And so, like, you know, we just enrolled some of our kids in Brazilian jujitsu, right?

Everyone starts as a white belt and when you're like, I haven't really done it for an extended period of time either, but like, when you're a white belt, you're just kind of drowning the whole time. You're getting choked out left and right. You don't know what the heck you're doing and naturally, you know, through the [00:42:00] progression of showing up day in and day out and rolling and inspiring with these people, learning new techniques, you develop your skills to the point where you stick around long enough.

You're going to move up in belt class and you'll get it become a black belt. Eventually. And I think the, the simple analogy applies to marriage where like, when you get married, you just, you're like that white belt where you're like, what the heck are we even doing? Like, I know this is not the right move and I'm just using the move anyways, you know, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't have said that, but it feels good right now to do and.

You

Paul and Maggie: know, you get,

Paul: you do the work, go to marriage counseling, if you need it, you read some books, you get some counseling, you know, you do this hard noble work and then you're like a blue belt. You're like, Oh yeah, I'm not going to fall into that trap that we're going to get choked out real quick if we do that.

Or, you know, or like, Oh, we've been in this situation before and I know what happened last time. And so instead of progressing and trying to just, Put all of my, my strength into it when really it's just a technique thing where I need to [00:43:00] take a different route instead of like exhausting myself and the other person.

Why don't we choose a different method? Right. And that can only be learned through experience. And so simple analogy, but yeah, very relevant. 11 years. I don't know what. Belt. We are

Paul and Maggie: not

Paul: a master at this yet, but

Joey: we sometimes just lose the belt. Like, I don't, we go backwards, but other times we're like, okay, I feel like we're getting the hang of this.

No, no, I think that's. There's a lot of lessons in everything you just said, like the aspect of patience with each other. Again, kind of going back to the curiosity piece, I think like asking questions in the midst of conflict is such a good thing to do, because otherwise you're making statements which feel like accusations.

I think, you know, I've heard the tactic of like, you can always speak from your own experience, like, you know, when this happens, like, I feel this way instead of saying you, like, You know, you just, um, so I think that's good too. Another, uh, I think Gottman taught this, we learned it from a therapist, but, uh, calling a time out.

We've heard that as helpful [00:44:00] where if things just get too heated, you know, have a preset time, whether it's 15 minutes or even 24 hours, somewhere in between usually, um, where you just kind of take a breather. And then you come back to it and that's another, I think, helpful tactic, uh, repeating back, like what you hear the person saying, uh, or what you think they're saying.

Like in the military, they do this in briefings, actually, it's called the read back and I've used it in the business world. And it's so helpful of like, Hey, like give me a read back. Like, what did you hear me saying? Like, what do you understand? And yeah, all those, I think tactics can be really, really helpful.

But, um, but yeah, I think it's the emotions can certainly. I get really, really hyped. So really good, really good advice, really good feedback. Thank you for going through all that. I, um, know we're running out of time here. So I just want to ask, um, I guess one more question that I want to hear about your course, Paul, how has marriage brought you guys joy and made you guys better?

Cause I know sometimes I'm guilty of maybe talking about trying to prepare people for like, Hey, it's going to be hard. It's not going to be a fairytale. And I think there's such an important point to that, but I also want to kind of balance it with like, no, there's actually a lot of goodness and joy. So I'm just curious if you want to share a story of Like, how has it made you better?

How has it brought you joy?

Maggie: I think obviously coming from a broken [00:45:00] family background, marriage for me has been so healing knowing that I can be my most vulnerable, ugly self, and this man chooses to love me every day, chooses to be committed to me and to our family. Um, that is so healing for me. And so that.

has brought me joy, just knowing that we are in this together, that through a lot of trial and error and a lot of, um, just learning about each other, learning just, you know, our, our own personal wounds, but also learning how to navigate life together. We have both grown so much. And yeah, I think just knowing that, like, I have.

This companion, this, my husband who is with me day in and day out through thick or thin till death do us part. Like, yeah, that has just brought me a lot of joy and healing.

Paul: Yeah. I find a lot of joy knowing that she is my only fan.[00:46:00]

Paul and Maggie: I couldn't

Joey: have said it

Paul and Maggie: better. It's relevant to this

Paul: conversation. I mean, you know, I'm like sharing my

Paul and Maggie: heart right now, going real deep. Can I throw that in there? Yeah,

Paul: it's good. Yeah, it's very good. I mean, seriously, like, I mean, I throw that in as a complete, like, tongue in cheek joke, but like, It's true.

Like our culture has like things so backwards and it's just so miserable and nihilistic and so unsatisfied to the point where like, I heard this crazy, like stab at the majority. Apparently of only fan subscribers are married men. That's terrible

Maggie: mom.

Paul: That's absolutely damning statistical evidence that like families in our culture are not in good shape, you know, marriages.

And so, you know, while I'm, I'm just being sarcastic and joking a bit, but, but truly like the way God made it [00:47:00] in the beginning, it was not. So, you know, the joy of knowing that, like, not only do we have one another, we have God on our side to give us indeed the strength to fulfill this beautiful, noble and difficult task.

And the joy is like, like Maggie was sharing. Like I have this friendship and Maggie that I have with no one else. And it is very beautiful. And, you know, scripturally, you know, it would say that people knew each other, understanding that it wasn't just like, they, they would describe the sexual act between couples as knowing one another.

And yes, there is a very intimate and beautiful and, um, exclusive knowledge that a husband and a wife get to experience with each other. But it's far more than just the sexual act. It's, it's indicative of like the whole, indicative of the whole relationship. Yeah. You know, the Marilyn Bray sex is just really just the icing at the top of the cake.

The cake is very big. And, you know, as we had mentioned earlier, like father Mike said, you know, people equate love with sex [00:48:00] and to, uh, to give a nod to another, uh, legendary priest, his name is father Benedict Rochelle. He passed away not too long ago. He was, he founded the CFR as a friars. And he was like a spiritual father to me for, you know, A season of my life.

And he had such a great sense of humor. So wise. But he said, he said in his Jersey accent, sex comes easy. Love is hard. That's true, man. Any, any fool with hormones can have sex. I mean, any fool. But like love, love, wow, that is not, is not for the faint of heart. Like love is willing the good of the other, and that requires all the virtues, um, to really make that work.

And so the joy I think has been knowing that like Maggie has my heart. I can entrust myself to her. I'm safe with her. I too can, you know, share my insecurities. I can be honest and real. But just knowing that I, you know, like Adam in the garden, right. There was like this original solitude, this longing that St.

Jean Paul II talked about in theology of [00:49:00] the body, where, while he was like really cool with all these like pets and exotic animals, there was still a longing to have a helpmate, a helper. You know, and then when he sees, you know, Eve, he says, flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone, he realizes that he had met his equal, that he had met, you know, and I want to be really careful to say the one who completes him because now the one who ultimately completes us as God, but in this life as not only a gift, but a consolation, like, yeah, this woman I have.

I can have and hold and, and to jury with. And the joy has been that as having this like very unique and beautiful friendship that I can rely on. And so, yeah, it's a beautiful journey. It's all worth it. It's, it's a lot of fun. You know, we laugh a lot. And. We share a lot of great memes with each other, probably the best, you know, I love it.

No,

Joey: so good. Well, thank you guys. And, uh, yeah, it's just been so good kind of watching you from afar. You know, I love [00:50:00] the content you put out and it's cool to see your beautiful family before we close on the conversation that I want to make sure that, um, people know about your course, because I think if they want more advice, like we're talking about here, you've built that, you deliver that through your course.

So tell us a little bit, what is it? How does it help people? How do they get it?

Paul: Yeah, absolutely. So a few years ago, I created a course called the Catholic guide to adulting and adulting being that, you know, kind of pop cultural reference of all things having to be an adult and put my big boy pants, my big girl shoes on.

And it's true, like after college. You know, the young adult experience, it's rough because there's a lot of things being thrown at you. Everything from faith and finances to dating and discernment and my mental health and these issues that are coming up and these interpersonal conflicts that I keep facing at work and romantically and with my parents and siblings and ah, and it's a lot.

And so I was like, dude, I remember that feeling very well as a young adult. So what if there was a resource that could help people almost like a one [00:51:00] stop shop where they don't have to like Google search everything and try to vet these sources. But what if there was a one stop shop where they had. You know, a reputable guide where I'm not just pulling from my own wise thoughts, but I'm pulling from scripture.

I'm pulling from our faith traditions as Catholics. I'm pulling from the wisdom of the saints and frankly, just like the sage knowledge that I've also picked up through the years from wonderful counselors and pastors and friends. And that's why I created a Catholic guide to adulting. And so it's an online course where people can go at their own pace and basically tackle all of these topics that really matter to young adults, whether you're single, whether you're in college, whether you're a working professional, whether you're newly married, whether you've been in all of these things for a while, there's something for everybody because ultimately the end game of adulting well is to be.

a saint and to be like Christ. But once again, it's not just like a fluffy devotional that says nice things, but it's a really nitty gritty practical guide and [00:52:00] tool that I believe is changing lives and helping people to live their best life and avoid a lot of the pitfalls that frankly their peers are falling into.

So if people want to learn more about this course, they can just go to catholicadulting. com. Once again, that's catholicadulting. com. And for the listeners of the restored podcast, if you type restored, as you're checking out, you can get a little 10 percent discount just to say, thanks for listening. And, um, yeah, I hope people really benefit from it.

We have members from several different countries, um, several hundred people from all around the world who are benefiting already. And so I hope that your listeners will benefit too.

Joey: Love that. Thank you so much for the discount. And yeah, no, you have so much wisdom. And I love the fact that it's like packaged and something that people can work through at their own pace and maybe even do as a couple.

I think that sounds awesome as well, especially if maybe one of them is from a broken family. One of them is not kind of like your story, like mine and my wife's story as well. So, so good. Um, thank you for that. And I know what's your other website. I know you do speaking engagements and lots [00:53:00] of other things as well.

Paul: Yeah, sure. So I've been speaking full time for the past 14 years and Praise God. The ministry is taking me all around the world and I'm super grateful for it. Uh, if they want to find out more about my ministry, they can go to pjkmusic. com or just Google search, Paul J Kim, J period Kim, and they'll find my website.

And I'm obviously on social media. I'm most active on Instagram, but they can just look up Paul J Kim. I'm there. And Maggie's on Instagram too.

Maggie: What is it? I don't even remember. Maggie Kim, 49, I think.

Joey: I think that's it. Okay, cool. Yeah, we'll make sure to link to all this in the show notes, but that sounds about right to me.

And you guys know, I love, again, watching you guys from afar, because I think we need more examples of, yeah, just beautiful marriages and showing like the real side of it, how it can be a struggle, but then also how beautiful it can be. And I think you guys do such a good job of that and you're real about it too.

So that's why I wanted to have you on. So Thank you guys for being here. Um, I want to give you guys the final word, like what final advice encouragement would you offer? Especially to maybe the younger you guys, like when [00:54:00] you were a couple, again, one of you come from a broken family, the other one coming from an intact family.

What final advice, encouragement would you offer?

Maggie: I hope that your listeners leave this podcast with hope. I think for me, like I lived a lot of my life feeling hopeless about love and marriage and what that would look like for me in the future. And just, yeah, just from my experience, I hope that people view marriage in a hopeful way.

It doesn't mean that it's going to be easy. Um, marriage is tough. It's gotta be tough. Um, we have to choose to die to ourselves every day and to be committed to each other, but there's nothing. Anything that's hard in life, it's worth it. It's worth working towards it. So yeah, I just, I hope that I can express that there's so much goodness and growth and virtue and joy that comes from seeking marriage and working towards it.

Paul: Yeah. Amen. What I will say too, just kind of based on that is [00:55:00] regardless of your family of origin or how your parents marriage was, you can have the marriage and the family you always wanted. It's going to take work. It's going to take you deciding that certain traits, certain brokenness, certain problems that your family is influenced by, you have to make a decision that it stops with you.

But if you have the courage to do that, you can really change an entire generation and generations to come. And while that might sound a little dramatic, it is absolutely true. Because now we have kids and we're burdened with the beautiful task of trying to do it better than our parents did. And it's a battle and it's a fight worth engaging in.

And that battle is often interior. It's like, Hey, I have these things I'm working on. I have this area of woundedness that like I need to really unpack and bring before the Lord. And I want to be the best husband and dad. That I can possibly be and not just to feel good about myself, but for the sake of my bride and [00:56:00] my children.

And it's all worth it. It really, really is. It's a beautiful journey. So don't let anyone ever tell you that marriage isn't worth it and kids are too expensive. God will provide. And so that's what I, what I have to say about that.

Joey: Again, definitely check out Paul's course, a Catholic guide to adulting. If you use the code restored again, restored past tense, you'll get 10 percent off that course that wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you.

Feel free to subscribe or follow on apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever podcast app you use. Not only is it the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help. And it only takes a few seconds.

If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback. And that also helps people find the podcasts. In closing, always remember you're not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life, and we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#136: Relationship Advice for Young People from Broken Families | Jackie & Bobby Angel

The biggest area of struggle for young people from divorced or broken families is in romantic relationships. Why so much struggle? In short, we were poorly trained in how to love, so we feel incompetent at it and fear repeating our parents’ mistakes. 

So, how can you overcome that fear and relearn how to love? My guests answer that question and more: 

• How do you discern whether a lack of peace in a relationship is because of your brokenness or because the relationship isn’t right?

• What topics does a couple need to discuss and agree upon before marriage?

• What’s been the most helpful advice you’ve used in handling conflict?

If you’re from a divorced or dysfunctional family and you want to break that cycle and build a beautiful marriage and family, this episode is for you.

Follow Jackie & Bobby

• Website: JackieandBobby.com

• Instagram: @jackiefrancois

• Instagram: @bobby.angel

• YouTube: Conversations with Jackie & Bobby

• Listen on Apple

• Listen on Spotify

• YouTube: Ascension Presents playlist: Jackie & Bobby
  

Mentorship with Bobby: Schedule a FREE phone consultation with Bobby

If you need it, tell Bobby you heard him here and ask for a discount for your first month!

Get the Guide: 5 Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family

Get the Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

Pretty Good Catholic: How to find, date, and marry someone who shares your faith

How to Find Your Soulmate Without Losing Your Soul

The Dating Blueprint

Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts: Seven Questions to Ask Before and After You Marry

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

===

Jackie: So just because someone's perfect on paper doesn't mean they're great for you or they're the person that God's calling you to. Should

Joey: you have a checklist of like qualities you're looking for?

Jackie: I see people make these crazy vanity lists of like, Oh, he has to be six feet tall, make six figures, have a six pack.

I'm like, that's ridiculous. So you have to like the person and be free to be yourself with the person, but you also have to be very attracted to them because there's a lot of love making in marriage.

Joey: What conversations, what topics do you advise couples to have before they. You know, even get engaged.

Jackie: People don't talk about like in marriage, like, Oh, I expect that you're going to cook for me. I expect that you're going to take out the trash.

Joey: What's been the most helpful advice or tactic that you guys have used in

Bobby: your own marriage? I'll say as the introvert, your spouse can't read your mind.

Jackie: Oh,

Bobby: so sometimes you have to be assertive.

Joey: Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships. You can [00:01:00] break that cycle and build a better life. My guests today are a married couple, Jackie and Bobby Angel.

Jackie and Bobby are Catholic influencers, speakers, and authors who focus on dating, marriage, theology of the body, and so much more, reaching over a million people online. Jackie's been involved in ministry for over 20 years and now homeschools their children. With over 20 years of ministry experience himself, including a decade as a theology teacher, a time as a seminarian, even a time as a firefighter, Bobby is now a trained mentor and teacher.

From the Catholic Psych Institute. You'll hear more about that in the show and together they share their wisdom through speaking engagements, videos, and their podcasts. Now onto the topic of today, the biggest area of struggle for young people who come from divorce and broken families is in romantic relationships.

A 25 year long study from UC Berkeley found that fact, it was all summarized by the way, in a book called the unexpected legacy of divorce, which we'll link to in the show notes. If you want to check that out, why so much struggle in relationships in short, those of us who come from broken families were poorly trained in how to love.

And so we feel [00:02:00] incompetent, might actually be incompetent at it. And we fear repeating our parents mistakes, and so often end up repeating those mistakes in our own relationships, in our lives. And so the question becomes, how can you overcome that fear and relearn how to love? And my guests answer that question so much more.

What are your top three tips to navigate the dating world right now? It's really messy out there. How do you discern whether a lack of peace in your relationship is because of your own brokenness or maybe because the relationship isn't right? What topics does a couple need to discuss and agree upon before marriage and perhaps even before engagement?

What's been the most helpful advice that you've used in handling conflict? And finally, a really neat way that you can do daily mentorship. with Bobby. And so if you come from a divorce or a dysfunctional family and you want to break that cycle and build a beautiful marriage and family now or someday in the future, this episode is for you.

Now, before we dive in, I just want to let you know that in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm really glad that you're here.

My challenge for you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you're to [00:03:00] skip the God parts, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode. And with that, here's our conversation. Bobby, Jackie, so good to have you guys. Welcome.

Jackie: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Joey: Yeah, great to be here. I'm excited to talk with you guys.

A lot of questions, so we'll, we'll dive in, but before we get to those questions, get your advice on some things, I have to ask you, otherwise all of our female audience members will kill me. How'd you guys meet? What's your love story?

Jackie: The quickest version is we met at the Theology of the Body Institute.

The first time we met, he was in seminary. I was just like, you know, any, you know, normal girl who sees a very good looking man who's in seminary. You're like, Oh Lord, come on, why do you take all the good looking ones? Um, so what was good about that? It just allowed us to be friends. And a year and a half later, we remet at another theology of the body Institute course in Pennsylvania.

Cause I'm from California. He's from Florida. And, um, At this point, he had been praying, um, just really feeling called out of seminary to marriage and [00:04:00] we jokingly, well, he jokingly says that

Bobby: not so jokingly. Mother Teresa said when you pray, be specific. So I prayed for a sign that was loud and blonde

Jackie: that

Bobby: I could not miss.

Yeah,

Jackie: and it was just very apparent. It was just so good. Interesting how like that week was way different than the first week. It just, it was very apparent, like, whoa, there's something here. And so after that week, you know, he went to a spiritual director. He went to his bishop and he kind of he told his bishop, you know, Bishop, I found the girl I think I want to marry.

And his bishop goes, Well, Bob, we all thought you were a crapshoot for the priesthood anyways.

Well, I think Bobby was just so open with he wasn't. Under any, you know, false pretenses or pretending like, like, Oh, this is like, I don't have any sexual desire or like, I don't have any, you know, I think he was just very open and honest with his spiritual director, his bishop. Like, I don't know if I can do this celibacy.

Like, I feel called to be here at this moment. But so they all kind of knew, like, We're not, we're not counting on, [00:05:00]

Bobby: we're not, we're not surprised.

Jackie: We're not shocked, you know? So, uh, that's kind of the short story. And he, he moved to California a few months later and then proposed a few months later and it was pretty, you know, people say, you know, when you know, and when you're single, you hate that when people say that, but it's kind of true, I feel like, especially when you're in your later twenties, you know yourself really well, it was really like, it was strange.

Like when that week we remet, it was like, Whoa, what? Whoa. Like this is the person. It was very, very quick.

Bobby: Yeah. And that was most of, after most of my twenties, hitting my head against the wall, treating God like a magic eight ball, just tell me what you want me to do. And like when I finally got to a point of surrender.

And letting it all go. It was as if God could finally say, finally, we can get to work and things fell into place very quickly. And yeah, moved out to California. I worked at an all boys school for about 10 years. And now we're in Texas. We've got five crazy kids

Jackie: under [00:06:00] the age of 10. We homeschool. We're crazy.

Bobby: And, uh, yeah, we're happy to be here.

Joey: Yeah, no, I love crazy people. This is awesome. I'm glad we're talking. And, uh, I, uh, no, I'm sure there's a lot we could talk about your story, but it's funny. I know a couple couples who have a similar story where one of the guys was in seminary and then, you know, went down a different path and just turned out of that and then ended up building a beautiful marriage.

So. I'm grateful that, uh, God led you down the path. It is so interesting how he leaves a sound like a path sometimes and it says, just kidding. Like go this way. But there's a purpose for that too. Oh

Jackie: yeah. I'm so grateful for the formation that Bobby had in those years. I kind of wish like every Catholic man had to go through, you know, those kinds of years of formation.

Like Bobby had to take a whole semester on, Like active listening. I'm like, that has been very helpful for marriage. Like

Bobby: it was, it was awful.

Jackie: Every husband, every husband should have to take a course called active listening. Um, and, and really like, I just earned being a nun. And in my heart, I was like, Lord, I could be a nun, but I'm not called to be a nun.

Like I need a guy who could be a priest and is not called to be a priest because I knew like, I'm at this [00:07:00] place in my faith. Like, I don't want to drag along. The guy I'm going to marry, like, we need to be on the same page, and, you know, we need to, I want someone who we're going to run the race to heaven together, and I'm not going to be dragging him along, because I didn't want that for my life, you know, so I'm just grateful for the years he had the friends he made and who are a lot of the reprise now and

Bobby: some who baptized our kids

Jackie: somewhere.

The godfathers of our Children. And yeah, I'm just so I'm grateful for those those years.

Joey: Love it. No, nothing is wasted. I love that. I want to transition into talking about dating. Um, so the biggest area of struggle, uh, speaking of dating, the biggest area of struggle, uh, for people from broken families, our audience, uh, is in romantic relationships.

It's been a lot of research to show that as well. Um, basically we were poorly trained in how to love, and so we feel incompetent at it and we fear, you know, repeating our parents mistakes. And so I'm curious, I'll start with an easy question. How can someone overcome that fear and relearn how to love?

Jackie: Yeah. I mean, it makes sense that that fear comes from, again, if your parents are divorced, [00:08:00] there, there's a fear like, is, is it even possible, you know, and my parents are not divorced, but I come from a family that's very messed up. I mean, you know, like I did not have a good witness of a Catholic marriage.

And so I started praying when I had my conversion at 18, I was like, Lord, you need to start bringing some good marriages in my life to know that it is possible. Like, what does it even look like to have And God did. He started bringing mentors into my life of what it looked like. Um, so I think for me, I would say like the first step is our own healing is our own healing and really acknowledging what are those areas that like, where are the fears?

Um, am I afraid of being abandoned? Um, am I afraid of being rejected? And like, even in our marriage, like. There is a fear of being cheated on because that was an example for me, you know, like I, and so even that own insecurity in my heart, I have to work on of, um, making sure that I don't make Bobby an idol.

Like also the two of us meeting at theology of the body, we both knew only God can satisfy every [00:09:00] desire of our hearts. Like another human being can't do that. Um, so that was very freeing. Like Bobby's not God. I'm not God, even though he's the man of my dreams. He's the love of my life. He's my best friend.

He's not God. And it would be very unfair to make him God and to make him have to be perfect because he's not, and I'm not. Um, so I think obviously the first step for anyone, no matter what background you come from is like allowing the Lord, acknowledging the woundedness and allowing the Lord to heal you and how you see relationships.

But yeah, Bobby, what would you, what would you say?

Bobby: Yeah, I think one of the hardest first steps is to acknowledge where you've been hurt and where there have been deficiencies. Where there should have been love like where you needed love in a certain way you needed stability or security and it wasn't there because otherwise we're just constantly reacting and the parts of us get really agitated get really can be really controlling or clingy we don't want to be abandoned we don't want to be out of control and so it's also one of the hardest steps to actually sit [00:10:00] with myself to sit in silence to come to acknowledge okay how have I been hurt and how am I you What am I afraid of reliving because otherwise we are just kind of reacting to life instead of I know I'm operating out of a place of self knowledge and it's a painful journey.

You know, we do everything we can to avoid sitting with ourselves. We run from silence. We just endlessly distract ourselves. We scroll because it's really hard and painful to sit with these ways that we haven't been loved to rightly.

Jackie: Yeah. And then, and I would say like the best thing you can do for your vocation, no matter what your vocation is, whether that's celibacy or marriage, the best thing you can do is to be as healthy and Holy now and healthy in all the ways.

Right. Like healthy, physically, spiritually, emotionally, and. It's just one day at a time, you know, we're all on a journey and just everything one day at a time, but to, to not waste your single years, but to really allow the Lord. Cause when I was single, I was like, Lord, I might die tomorrow. I mean, I guess I'm kind of like memento [00:11:00] mori.

I just thought of death every day. I was like, maybe I'll die tomorrow. So I want to be as healthy and holy as I can today. And, um, yeah. Um, not knowing what tomorrow would bring, not knowing when my spouse would come, if that's what I was called to, you know, because I was fully open to the possibility that I might be called to celibacy or that I might die just for, for me, just like I was, I was like, I want to be as joyful as I can now and allow the Lord to heal me in those places of my heart, the, the wounds that I have for my mom, my dad, my siblings, like, uh, allow the Lord to heal me in those places.

So I can be free and live joyfully and not just be. Um, enslaved by my sin or even enslaved by my insecurities and my my woundedness

Bobby: or enslaved by fear because I know there's also the cases of those trying to avoid relationships at all costs. You know, because I've been so hurt by them. I've been so hurt by this example of marriage.

I want nothing to do with marriage. If I've been abused, I want nothing to do with acknowledging my sexuality. [00:12:00] Even in the Catholic sphere, people that choose celibacy more out of a fear of marriage. Then genuinely feeling called to the priest or called to be a sister. There's a sense of I just am so afraid of marriage.

I would rather hear or hear. I can't be hurt in the same way. I can't or just the fear of divorce repeating the cycle. I'd rather just opt out altogether.

Jackie: I like how he asked. This is an easy question.

Bobby: What once you use an

Jackie: easy question that you guys are going to take 20 minutes to answer.

Bobby: Once you pull the string on Jackie and Bobby, you don't know

Jackie: how long an

Bobby: answer when it's going to stop.

Jackie: It's like a really long worship song. It's going to go 15 minutes.

Joey: Yeah, no, this is so good. And you guys hit on so many great topics, which we'll go into a little bit deeper later. But you mentioned the word reacting, which I think is so true. Like one of the things that we believe here at Restored is that after sin, like sin's the worst thing in the world.

It's the cause of all the unhappiness in the world. But after sin, the thing that holds us back the most from becoming, yeah, the best version of ourselves is our untreated brokenness. And so I love that [00:13:00] focus of like, kind of getting your own house in order before you try to. Um, love because it's going to prevent you from loving.

Well, and I've seen that certainly, uh, in my own life. And so I love, um, Bobby, that you said you kind of need to diagnose your brokenness, you need to put words to it all, which can be deceptively hard. And once you've kind of come to that point, then you're better able to, you know, have that self awareness, move on to kind of self mastery, and then finally like move to the stage of like self love, where you're giving yourself self gift, um, which is, is the goal.

I, in my opinion, that's the meaning of life. So I love that. And then the other word you mentioned, reacting, um, I think, yeah, like you said, a lot of us have this fear of re enacting what we, we saw growing up. And so I think that's really the only way, if you're afraid of that, everyone listening, like working on yourself, growing, like growing in virtue of healing is, is always a good investment.

I would love to spend more time there, but I wanted to ask you guys, The dating world is obviously just so messy right now for everyone. I'm so glad like I'm not in it anymore. I feel for my friends who are. Um, so I'm just curious, like what are your top three tips? What would you say on navigating that dating [00:14:00] world right now?

And any books, resources, podcasts that you recommend?

Jackie: Yeah. Um, yeah, it is a total poop show. Um, but actually the book that we just got, the, um, um, Oh my gosh, I'm blanking. The single Catholic book. I, there was some really good advice in there of your funnel. Like you got to start with a wide funnel. Like you just got to start meeting a lot of people because it used to be, you literally could meet somebody in your town that shared the same values that you had and You were attracted to, and you know, you really had chemistry with it.

It used to be because so many more people had the same values that we did. It was much easier to find some of it now, just the statistic alone of the chances of just someone being a really good, like a good Catholic, or even having the same values as you is going to be pretty slim and then not just same values, but then you're, you have chemistry with them.

You have a friendship with them. You're attracted to them. I mean, right. It's like pretty daunting. So I just think your funnel needs to [00:15:00] be wider. Sometimes, um, I mean, I just, I'm online and I see people make these crazy, just, Vanity lists of like, Oh, he has to be six feet tall, make six figures, have a six pack.

I'm like, that's ridiculous. Like

Bobby: it's too many sixes.

Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Six, six, six. If that doesn't tell you something right there, um, you're, you know, I would say have obviously very high standards. Like I tell women all the time, don't settle, like, don't not, not, not to settle down, but like I say, don't settle for.

Like, don't grasp at, you know, because you're lonely or afraid. Wait on God's timing. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't be proactive and it doesn't mean you can't go on dating sites. So I would say your funnel needs to start being wide and you start meeting people. And I'm always about Catholic match or Catholic sites because Literally, we keep meeting.

I keep having friends who are like, I'm so embarrassed to say this, but we met on Catholic match and I'm like, why are you embarrassed? And like, they're literally getting married and sometimes it's after years of sifting through all the [00:16:00] really awkward people or whatever, but I'm like, Hey, it could be you get on.

And that guy just left seminary. And actually I had a friend that that happened to, he literally just left seminary, got on and she got on and they are married. Um, but this keeps happening to friends. So. Yup. Your funnel needs to be, you just need to meet people, and you can't, I heard this one comedian say, like, women, you need to leave the house unless you want to marry your Uber Eats guy.

Like, you want to get married, but if you don't leave the house, how are you going to meet people? Like, I literally traveled around the world for my ministry. For the first 10 years of my ministry, I traveled around the world. I met thousands upon thousands of Catholic men, and it still took me 10 years to meet Bobby Angel.

And I met amazing Catholic men, good men, holy men, but I was like, they're not Bobby. And so finally when I met Bobby, I was like, ah, there he is, you know? So your funnel needs to be wide. Um, very good Catholic, right? Isn't that what it's called? Very good Catholic.

Bobby: [00:17:00] The book, the book is right out there. Is it really?

The problem is if we go get it, a kid is going to see it and come.

Jackie: Or pretty good Catholic. Pretty good Catholic. That's what it's called. Pretty good Catholic.

Joey: Pretty Catholic. Cool. We'll put the link in the show notes so everyone can check it out. But yeah. Yeah.

Jackie: Cause it's all about being single. And she gives, she has advice from like a Catholic matchmaker and she, it's actually very good.

I highly recommend it. And just to help you when you're dating this, this poop show dating what it is right now. So yeah, Bobby, what would you say?

Bobby: I don't have much advice. What you said at the beginning, like you're just so thankful to be married and be done with it. I said something similar to a college talk we gave a year ago.

Jackie: Yeah.

Bobby: And I just like, ah, I don't know, man. Good luck.

Jackie: Cause I love talking about, I love talking to single people about dating and Bobby's like, I've already arrived. I don't need to stop. And not

Bobby: that I, Not that I don't care. It's just such gratitude to be on this side of the fence. Yeah. Because it is such a new landscape with all the different apps and, [00:18:00] and just, like, it was already a hookup culture 10, 15 years ago, but now it's just all the more we're atomized.

We're just trained to objectify one another to like,

Jackie: Atomized?

Bobby: Yeah. Like we're just kind of Broken apart. Okay. .

Jackie: Wow. I've never heard you say. Okay. Okay.

Bobby: Alright. See, I wanna talk philosophy. Jackie can talk dating all day long. . I can. Yeah. Yeah. We're not trained to like. Engage one another as humans. We're trained to look at each other as body parts to swipe left or right.

And I mean, it's, it's difficult. So even when, even in a time where to be proactive and to be assertive, like I'd like to take you on a date could be perceived as, well, I don't want to be a creeper.

Jackie: Yeah.

Bobby: It's like, Oh, like we're in a tough place in culture right now. And so,

Jackie: but I've always got guys ask girls on dates and girls say yes.

Like, unless you're afraid they're going to murder you, like say yes, practice going on dates. Just it's a good practice. So I had to put my money where my mouth was because I was speaking about this when I was single [00:19:00] and literally God was like, all right, I'm gonna make you practice this. And I'm not even kidding within 24 hours.

And this had never happened in my life. So don't think this happened before. Like four guys asked me on a date. I'm like, did they see my talk or something? But they didn't. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna just do it. I'm just gonna go on a first date. And so I had to practice going on dates. And then I had to practice if I didn't want to see them again, I had to practice which apparently I didn't because I'm married to Bobby.

Um, I had to practice not ghosting them and how to reject in a healthy way and say, you know, if they asked me on another date, My guy friend was like, just say thank you so much, but I won't be going on any further dates with you. Like, that's all you need. It does. And we all are so, man, we're so wounded. We get so sad when we're rejected, but the truth is, it's not.

If we were really healthy, we wouldn't get sad at being rejected. We would just be like, okay, I guess I'm not the person and there is somebody else for them and that's okay. And there's somebody else for me and that's okay.

Bobby: Well, and even with the sting of rejection, at least the gratitude of [00:20:00] there being upfront with you.

Jackie: Yeah,

Bobby: they're not ghosting you. If you're in this case where it's painful, you can acknowledge that

Jackie: they're not dragging you along and leading you on,

Bobby: but also to not throw a hissy fit. Like you see guys that just decide

to like start a verbal barrage and like making the girl to be the enemy when it's like, listen, she's trying to shoot straight with you.

There's no reason to turn into a toddler. But again, there's, there's parts of us that are wounded and hurt and we, we react and lash out if we're not in a place of self control and self mastery or

Jackie: integration. Yeah,

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Joey: I couldn't agree more. So, so basically the takeaway is put out a wide net, marry an ex seminarian and then make sure Yeah, sure.

No, no, but I think it's important. Like we want to find people who are like well formed and virtuous. Like we're talking, which we'll get into in a little bit, but yeah,

Jackie: I think we might talk about this, but kind of the two things that how, you know, somebody is the person you're called to marry. Like I just say like, number one, you have to have a good friendship and a virtuous friendship.

And then number two, you want to, you should want to pounce them. I mean, like if you, cause there's people, there's people are like, I want to pounce but y'all don't have anything to talk about. You don't have. A faith life together, friendship, you don't have a friendship and then there's people you have a friendship with and you're like, I'm not attracted to you, you know?

And so you have to have both because you're going to be married [00:22:00] to, you need to have a virtuous friendship. You're going to be with them 24 seven, right? So you have to like the person and be free to be yourself with the person, but y'all have to be very attracted to them because there's a lot of love making in marriage and uh, that would be very difficult if you were not attracted to the person.

Joey: No, I've heard stories where. There's struggles there. And it's definitely, I think it's a major area where you need to focus on like that attraction and the, yeah, the sexual attraction is like an important part of marriage. So I love that advice. I wanted to, um, go back in time a little bit, Jackie, you, a while ago wrote a great article called the devil wants you to settle in your relationships full of great advice.

One nuance I wanted your advice on for our audience is they struggle a lot with fear and anxiety in relationships so much. So that Bobby mentions before. They might end up giving up on love altogether or even leaving like otherwise good relationships because they're just afraid and they're really wounded.

And so basically means that a lack of peace doesn't automatically mean that the relationship isn't meant to be. It might mean that, but it doesn't automatically mean that, um, but it's not always the route. And so [00:23:00] definitely makes a lot harder to discern, you know, Is this lack of peace, the relationship, this person I'm with, or maybe my past?

So any advice for discerning that? Yeah.

Jackie: Cause I talk about in that article, like having that pit in your stomach and that situational anxiety, like when you're in the wrong job or you're in the wrong relationship, you have that pit in your stomach. Yeah. But for, so the people who maybe just have anxiety all the time, like, what do you do with that?

And I think. Again, it's very helpful kind of going back to the, is there a friendship there with this person kind of just knowing like outside of how you're feeling like, okay, do we have a friendship? Am I free to be myself? Even though maybe I still have anxiety, like is this, this particular person, is there peace with this person that just like I have with my friends of the same sex, like how are you with your girlfriends or your best guy friends?

You can be completely you and you don't have to put up. You know, a fake self, you don't have to put up mask. You can be completely you and they still love you. And that's how it's going to be with your spouse. It's this person's going to see [00:24:00] you completely naked, both physically and emotionally, spiritual, everything, and they're going to still love you.

So is there a friendship there? Just like. you would have with your, your best guy friends or best girlfriends. I think you can tell that even if you have anxiety, there's still going to be an acknowledgement. Like, wow, I can be myself. I can be free in this relationship. Um, and then also, am I attracted to this person?

Is there a romance there? Um, so. Yeah, because I asked Dr. Bataro this question, because I was getting this question a lot. And back in, back in my day, when I was in psychology, I mean, the statistic was that 20 percent of people had generalized general anxiety. And I, I kind of have a feeling that statistic has gone up, you know, so for maybe, 80 percent of people or 70 percent of people, they might have situational anxiety when they're in the wrong relationship, the wrong job.

But those people who have generalized anxiety all the time, and it really affects their day to day life. I asked Bataro, I said, you know, how do those people discern? He's like, well, you would still have a piece about the [00:25:00] person, even though you still have the same thing, there still would still be like, I still have a.

Really deep friendship with this person. I think we make it so complicated. And the problem is we always are trying to make the shoe fit. When we have the wrong person, we're like, I just want to make it fit. And we kind of know inherently like, no, we, I feel like I did that in so many other relationships.

You're like, oh, but there were signs like I, this person's name I saw on the street side. We just try to make the wrong shoe fit. So often, I think that's where it becomes really difficult. And then when we find the person we're. Actually supposed to be with, it's like, Oh, like this, I really do have a friendship with this person.

But Bobby, what would you, what would you say to that and add?

Bobby: Yeah, everything Jackie said, uh, just, just rewind and listen to it again. I mean, I, I think two of, we can have a part of us that Just is tempted to self sabotage and afraid of the [00:26:00] thing that we want the most and what if it what if it falls through because how I've been wounded by divorce or how I've been rejected.

So sometimes there is that in a generalized anxiety sense. That temptation to to self sabotage and maybe it's because a part of us thinks that I don't deserve this I don't deserve this relationship. I don't deserve the love of this person I mean my spiritual director told me when I was tempted I had a moment of like this is too good to be true Like when Jackie and I just really started to click in he's like don't refuse the gift like recognize what God is allowing to happen And what you've been praying for, it's finally happening.

And to know, like, there's a part of you that is really quick to be self critical and think I don't deserve this. This is, you know, don't get my hopes up. And it's like, no, no, no, just receive the gift.

Jackie: And on the opposite spectrum is that when you are with the wrong person. It's good to like talk to your family and your friends because you know, there are moments like I was with the wrong person and my friends like, yeah, we don't like this guy.

And, and, and then when Bobby, like Bobby was engaged [00:27:00] prior to, and the girl that he was with his own family was like, you're not yourself. And his friends were like, you're not Bobby. Like you're not you when you're with this girl. Like you, Are not as fun. You're not as happy. And so it's also good to have our people outside of the relationship help to see maybe some blind spots that we can't see

Bobby: even to risk the friendship because sometimes we've pushed away the voices of accountability in our lives because we don't want to be seen.

We're not proud of what we're doing or the behaviors we're doing or we don't want to be told So I, I had friends put the friendship on the line and be like, you may not want to hear this, but we don't think this girl, like it's, it's, it's right. It's healthy and you know, it's, it's stung. But at the same time, the part of me is like, like craving for like a smack in the face.

Like, you know, we, we know there's a better option here for everyone. And yeah, like sometimes we need the friends. To tear the roof off and lower us to Jesus because we're just so [00:28:00] broken, we're so paralyzed with our own fear or our own addictions, whatever, like we need the help of friends and family to bring us to Jesus to intervene.

So if you're listening and there's someone in your life that you've have felt the nudge to reach out to talk to like that, you know, might be the Holy Spirit.

Jackie: Yeah, please, for the love of God, do it. I've, I've just had women reach out to me who were months away from a marriage and even just them reaching out to me on Instagram and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you are just saying so many red flags.

And they're like, no, but I can't imagine life without this person and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I'm just repeating back to you, what you just said to me. And you know, it might take a while for them to kind of But it's like you wouldn't have reached out to me if you, you know, you didn't kind of know at a deeper level, like this wasn't right.

So yeah, marriage, I'm all about like, but again, better 14 broken engagements than one broken marriage. And again, if this, if you guys know this, you know, this from experience, you know, what a broken marriage can do and how [00:29:00] it affects generations, like how it affects you. And it affects, and so we know. So I, I don't want that to scare you on finding the right person, but I think, listen to what, like what Bobby said, like when you're with the wrong person, That there's, there's a way that it feels and your friends and family can see it.

But when you're with the right person, don't self sabotage. And also there will be people around you who will see like, no, this person's amazing and really good for you. And you can be yourself and you know, you don't need to second guess that you're attracted to them. And there's a beautiful friendship there.

So

Joey: no, I love that. There's so much more we could say. I was just thinking back, uh, one of my relationships, I thankfully, like all my serious relationships with the team. These great girls, like they were awesome women, but didn't always mean they were right for me. And I remember, um, in one situation, one of my buddies, after the girl had broken up with me, he was like, Oh yeah, I saw that.

I was like, I wish she would have said something to me. So the lesson I took away from that is you can't always wait for your friends to come to you with this stuff. You sometimes need to seek it out. In fact, that's what I would [00:30:00] advise is like, Ask your friends. Like you guys are saying, ask your family.

Hey, what do you think about this? Do you see any red flags and yellow flags? Like what's going on here? Um, and I know Jason Everett has a bunch of great stuff that if you guys are wondering, like what you're talking about, seems maybe a little bit elusive in the sense of like, it's not only based on feelings.

That's not what we're saying here. There are objective markers. And I know I've heard you guys preach about this too. And so Jason Everett's book, uh, how to find your soulmate without losing your soul is great for women helping you discern if like the man is right for you. And then his dating blueprint for the guys as well.

We'll link to those in the show notes. They can help. Provide some like, you know, objective framework, not that you shouldn't pay attention to your emotions too. I think the tricky thing with this audience is like, they might have a lot of peace and other areas over the life, but when it comes to love and relationships, because there's just so much baggage and brokenness there, it can be freaky.

Like in my case, um, I remember once I got to like that point in my life where I was started to seriously date, I was terrified. I felt so incompetent. I didn't really know what I was doing. Um, and I almost like. Like Bobby, you said before, I almost just like backed away from it. So I think this advice is, is good [00:31:00] advice.

And what are you guys are saying is really helpful for now. Anything you'd add before we move over to marriage?

Jackie: Well, I like what you said about someone could be great on paper. Oh man. Like there, there was a guy that I was like going on days of like perfect on paper, like literally stellar on paper. And then just there, the French, like, I'm like, I don't want to spend 24 seven with this person.

And like, I think I would. Die if I just, you know, I, it's just, there were things that, again, but on paper, an amazing guy, amazing Catholic. Um, and, and so just cause someone's perfect on paper, it doesn't mean they're great for you or they're the person that God's calling you to. So I think that was a very good distinction.

And sometimes we can be in love with the idea of a person instead of actually the person. And so I definitely know we, we prayer blocked a friend of ours.

Bobby: A few.

Jackie: Our friend, our friend told us they were engaged. And I was like, I had this massive pit in my stomach. I was like, Baba, we need a prayer block this ASAP.

Like, this is not. This is, these two are not meant to be married. And so [00:32:00] we literally prayer block, like we literally just pray. This is how we got to your baby. Jesus, please break this couple up, but it lets your will be done. Wink, wink, but I know what your will like. And literally five months later, they, they broke it off.

Thank God. It just, I just knew this man was in love with the idea of this woman and not in love with her. And I was like, she deserves better. She deserves a guy who actually is in love with her and not just the idea of her. Um, and on paper they looked perfect together. Wow. But again, I kind of knew a little bit more of the inner workings of the relationship and the stuff.

So I kind of knew a little more, but yeah, we probably blocked a couple, a couple of people.

Joey: You guys are good friends and I'm sure they're doing better because of it. Thank God. I,

Jackie: Oh, amen. I think the girl met her husband like six months later and he's amazing. So,

Joey: so good. So good. And that's Chuck. I love the distinction you made.

Like one of the things that is sometimes debated is like, should you have a checklist of like qualities you're looking for? And I think it's a good thing, but I think like you said before, too, it's so important to distinguish between like the non negotiables and the kind of [00:33:00] more preferences, vanity items maybe.

But yeah, but it's so important to remember you don't marry a checklist. Like you marry a person. And, and so I think it's really important, even if, like you said, they line up like, yeah, we believe the same things where, you know, we believe the same things about God, about like parenting and morality and all these things, but there's just something there that's not matching up.

There's not, you're not suited to each other. It's not good chemistry, things like that. The two things I noticed in some of my relationships, um, one, when the relationship wasn't meant to be, there was often like a heaviness around it. That's the best way I can explain it. Like there were like almost like constantly like problems to be solved in it.

Um, that was one item. And the second one, like it kind of lacked like some sort of like smoothness or naturalness. And I know that might sound kind of vague, but like basically it wasn't like you mentioned with like my best friends or, you know, female friends who I get along with really well, there was just kind of this mismatch and constant butting heads.

And obviously relationships are hard. Like we need to learn how to love, but. I think if it's that early on in the dating relationship and you're already having struggles, it's a kind of a scary sign of what's to come. So I know we need to move on to marriage [00:34:00] advice, but any final thoughts on this?

Jackie: For me, it was massively important that I married, like, again, in our, in a friendship.

I love Like someone who has a good sense of humor, like to be able to laugh through life is like massively important to me. Now, my best friend, she's like, I could care less about a sense of humor. He needs to have a job. Like, but for me, I'm like, if he does, if we don't have the same sense of humor, I will die.

Like I will die. So the fact that I was like, okay, he has to like the same stupid humor. Like I like watch the office parks and rec. Like I love. And so when Bobby was so self deprecating could make me laugh, it was like, immediately I love this man. Like just even as a friend, it was. When we were friends, I was like, Oh my gosh, this, I love his humor.

Like that to me is one of the most attractive besides like being holy. The humor is like one of those attractive things to me. So I think again, you have to know yourself and know like, this is a person I want to spend with every day. And Bobby makes me laugh, like even when we're in fights and I want to punch him in the face, there'll be times he makes me laugh.

And I'm like, ah, I'm so mad at you, but you're [00:35:00] so, you know, so you have to have joy in marriage and. Someone who, again, you're on a team, especially when there's kids in the mix, like you're on this team together, you're working together and, um, to have that joy, to really have that joy in marriage is huge.

Joey: I love that.

And on that note, I'm curious, like what conversations, what topics do you advise couples to have before they, you know, even get engaged, but especially before they get married to maybe try to vet if this person is right for them.

Jackie: I've talked a lot. I know I have things, so I want you to,

Bobby: I want you to keep talking.

Jackie: What do you think people need to talk about, Bobby?

Bobby: The stuff that you don't want to talk about, like finances, our approach to kids. And because, again, the, the nature of this particular conversation and forum, like family history, like family of origin stuff. Like what's going on in your family tree, like all that stuff, even if it's a lot of it's in our blind spots where we've worked really hard to shove it into the subconscious.

Like we don't talk about Bruno, but [00:36:00] this is the stuff that is going to come out in one way, shape or form.

Joey: Yeah.

Bobby: So like there's the, the matters of faith. And, and the type of people we want to be. And there's also the nitty gritty of, of, yeah, finances like saving and spending. Communication is, is a thing that makes and breaks relationships.

Like you can't over communicate, you know, this, this is especially our, our relationship around conflict.

Jackie: Yeah,

Bobby: and, and the sense of like, most of us, it's either like loud and we just, it's shouting at each other and, but we're not really resolving anything or we don't fight at all. We just push it under the rug and neither extreme is really helpful.

If we can't have empathy and step into one another's shoes and what are we really. Upset about or talking about what is she trying to communicate to me and vice versa these are the stuff that the more you can iron out ahead of time and it's it's a school of love as Pope John Paul the second said so it's not [00:37:00] overnight you master this stuff where 11 years married.

I mean, we hashed out a lot in

Jackie: engagement. That was probably engagement was our hardest time. Cause we were like, we need to talk about all these things. You need to talk about expectations. What your roles in the house, like, tell me about, like, what do you expect that I'm going to do as a wife? What do you expect?

I'm going to do as a husband, like even like taking the try. It's like, cause we have these, we have these expectations that people don't talk about, like in marriage, like, Oh, I expect that you're going to cook for me. I expect that you're going to take out the trash. I expect you're going to mow the lawn.

So

Bobby: based on the family of origin, it's like, my dad always did this or my mom did this. And so there's. Sometimes a nonverbal expectation.

Jackie: It's

Bobby: like, Oh, that's not how we did it in my family.

Jackie: Right. So you talk about that. You need to talk about your sexual history. Like, does somebody struggle with porn? Is there addiction?

Is there like, what's that? You need to talk about the very difficult thing. Talk about children. Are you on the same page with, you know, the, if you're Catholic, like the teachings of the church, when it comes to contraception, I mean, I literally, I know this is ridiculous, but like on a first date, I'd be like, If I didn't already know that they were very Catholic, I'd be [00:38:00] like, what do you think about NFP?

Like, I'm like, sorry, my time is precious here. I wasted my time. Like, cause I know again, I could be a nun, but I'm not calling you. Um, so you have to talk, I am shocked that certain couples like literally don't talk about things. They get married. One of the most common, I remember in psychology, they were like, the most common years of divorce are year one, year seven and year 20 and year one is like, yeah, cause y'all, y'all didn't talk about stuff and then you, you're married and you're with somebody every day and these things come out.

Like I tell single people all the time, marriage doesn't solve your problems. It exposes them. Right? Like you, you think like, Oh, I marry this person. It's going to solve all my problems. All your ish comes to the light. Okay. And so it's going to come, it's going to come out cause you're with this person all the time.

And so I feel like the more you can talk about stuff in engagement, the better and the beautiful thing is what you said about the heaviness in the wrong relationship with Bobby. Every time we got in an argument when we were [00:39:00] engaged and then we apologized made up. It was like, Okay. Ah, okay. This guy's not going to leave me.

Like he loves me for me. Whereas like in other relationships, there would be an argument and it felt like, uh, like I, you know, it felt like, I don't know if this is the person, like the, the way, the way this person handled it, or like, I feel like they, they might not really love me. Um, but with Bobby was so different.

I was like, man, he actually loves me and he's not going to leave me. And like, we're in this. So. I'm, I'm all for you talk about all that tough stuff. So yeah, children, expectations, finances, your family of origin, your sexual history. I mean, there are definitely books like we had an engagement that was like 101 questions to ask before you get married.

And you know, I, on that whole article, the devil wants you to settle. Like I go through a list of questions to ask yourself, like red flags and then things that are a little less red flags, but like you still need to ask yourself. So

Bobby: also. Let it, you know, let these conversations come organically.

Jackie: Yeah. You don't need to do it [00:40:00] all.

Bobby: Once you know, okay, this is serious.

Jackie: Yeah.

Bobby: We want to be exclusive here and we're not just dating to date. I see a future here. There's a, there's a comfort. There's an, there's an ease. You could start to get into some of this stuff. And, and let it kind of come as trust builds and we can continue to grow in vulnerability with each other.

And we, we love each other more the deeper we go, like that's another great sign of this is the person I want to, I want to be with

Joey: all the type a people just heard, okay, I need to schedule eight hours on a Saturday with my girlfriend.

Jackie: Although we did, we were, I remember we were like at a pond. I don't know if we were engaged or dating at one point, but we literally did go through that book of like 101 questions to ask for your marriage.

So we did. We sat for a day. I know, but we did. We had a couple hour day and we like went through some of these questions just because you just want to, you know, you want to make sure you're on the same page with this stuff. So

[00:41:00]

Joey: no, it's so important. So important. And yeah, I definitely. I've heard Father Mike talk about the [00:42:00] things that you just mentioned, like get on the same page when it comes to parenting, like how many kids you want to have, things like that, like obviously openness to life, of course, but get on the same page when it comes to, you know, faith, Bobby mentioned that, um, when it comes to money, you guys mentioned that, and then when it comes to, um, uh, in laws, like family, Situation too.

That's super important. And I know father Mike kind of adds the intimacy component, which Jackie already said super well. So those five points have always been kind of helpful for me and my wife and I were able to talk through those. I know the focus inventory, like if you're Catholic and getting married through a Catholic parish, Catholic church, um, the focus inventory is an assessment if you're not familiar with it.

It just kind of spurs conversation for you and hopefully your mentor couple or priest to just talk through some of these things too. But I would say it's kind of late in the game if you're just doing it then. So start sooner if you can. So thank you guys for that. Such good advice. And then one book I wanted to recommend too, it's by an evangelical couple, um, how to save your marriage before it starts.

Uh, a lot of good questions in there as well. Doctors, Les and Leslie Parrott, men, women, couple who, uh, write books on relationships and marriage. And I've learned a lot from them as well. Um, so yeah, Thank you guys for that. Um, so many more questions I want to go [00:43:00] through. I know we're running out of time, but I'm curious, Bobby, you mentioned conflict, like how important it is to learn how to handle that.

Well, make it healthy. Uh, what's been the most helpful advice or tactic that you guys have used in your own marriage? Because as you guys know, this is a major struggle for the people that we serve from broken families because so often they just saw conflict handle so poorly.

Bobby: You know, Jackie's always says she's sorry.

Um,

Jackie: I was like, I'm waiting for the joke to come. He's like, just, uh, avoid, avoid, just run.

Bobby: Yeah, if I wait long enough, she'll always apologize. So, um, yeah, I think kind of what I said at the very beginning of the episode, which was acknowledge. How have I seen? Like, what's the first blueprint I was given of conflict?

So how did my parents fight or not fight? Because that's my baseline of. Conflict equals arguing or conflict equals

Jackie: throwing something at or yeah, it's violence, violence. And so

Bobby: like, what am I working with and how might I need to rehabilitate that? [00:44:00] And for me, that was kind of a no conflict model. So any conflict or disagreement was like, This is ending.

This is awful. Like this is, you know, Defcon five. It's like, no, no, no, it's just, we need to communicate. We didn't have a disagreement. And so I, so I don't need to run away. I can turn towards it and recognize what parts of me are in fight or flight right now and realize. She loves me. This relationship is secure.

So even when it comes to attachment styles, there's a lot of literature and resources out there that can inform you of like, oh, I'm, I'm totally that I'm totally anxious or I'm totally avoidant. And I try to, I want to grow in relationship, but I'm also tempted to keep a person at an arm's length because what if they hurt me?

So the more we can grow in self knowledge and what is my norm for communicating and engaging conflict, it's going to help you stretch and realize, okay, I have room to grow here. And just because we're having conflict, it doesn't mean the relationship is over or it's in danger. In fact, the repair is and coming back together is [00:45:00] makes the relationship even stronger than if we never had like a disagreement at all.

Jackie: Yeah. And I, and I think obviously like we have our, I think we have our formula now for when we, you know, one of us does something and it's hurtful. Um, most of the time it's Bob, but we kind of, the two of us kind of not do the silent treatment, but we, we both are, we kind of, we take our time kind of questioning what's really going on here.

So like in my head, I'm like, why is he mad or why am I mad? Yeah. And is it really the thing, or is there something deeper than the thing? So, for instance, there was a time that I was mad at him, and, like, I'm thinking, am I mad at him, or am I actually mad because there's an insecurity in me? And there was that, there was a time that it was like, it was, it was me.

It was like, I was mad about something that he didn't even do. It was just that I was in, my own insecurity was, Run in the ship, you know, and [00:46:00] so I was getting jealous and I was, I was like, this wasn't even his fault. And then there were times, there have been times that you bring something to someone, you say, Hey, I feel like I felt this way.

So this is kind of like I've my friends who did net the national evangelization team. They have their conflict resolution. Like they would say, Hey, I felt this way when you did this. Not be like, ah, you always do this. But like, Hey, I felt this way. Cause they can't, no one can say, Oh, you didn't feel that way.

It's like, no, this is how I felt. I felt angry. I felt sad. I felt rejected when you did this, I didn't feel seen. Like, so there was a time when Bobby mowed the lawn and I made a comment that, you know, and it hurt him. And, and he was like, Hey, I felt this way when you said this. And so for us, we. Talk about it.

And we use the phrase in the future, because you can't change what just happened, but we say in the future, it would really help me if, when, so for instance, in the leaf thing, like in the future, when I mow the lawn, it would be really [00:47:00] helpful if you just said, And then you can criticize the job.

Joey: We missed a whole patch.

Well,

Jackie: like literally Bobby was like, all, I just want you to affirm what I just did for the last hour and then you can give me feedback, but I want to hear, thank you, you know? And so we always kind of say, Hey, or even if we're not in a, an argument, but like, say, I feel like I'm drowning with kids and housework.

I just say to Bobby, Hey, it would really help me. If you did this. It would really help me in the future. If you did this, like we, we want to love each other. We want to help each other. We're on the same team. And so again, you can't change the past. You can't change what you said. And also we don't ever say, I'm sorry.

You felt that way. Cause that's a very narcissistic response, right? That's like, don't ever say, I'm sorry. You feel that way. I say, no, I am sorry. I did that. I mean, personally for me, like. Even if I don't necessarily, like, there have been times, like, in a friendship, I'm like, I don't, you know, sometimes you [00:48:00] don't even think, like, did I do something wrong?

Like, I, I, I, in those cases, if you don't actually feel like you did something wrong, be like, I am so sorry. If I knew that that's how you would have, that you felt, I would have never done that. You know, cause like again, I care for my friend, I care for my spouse and I don't ever want them to feel that way.

And like, even if I didn't think it was that big of a deal, like I would have never done that had I known that it would make you feel like that. Like, I am so sorry.

Bobby: I'll say as the introvert, your spouse can't read your mind. So sometimes you have to be assertive

Jackie: in

Bobby: what you need, which is tough. Like, Especially if you have a part that wants to be a servant to the point of like, I have to be a martyr.

I have to overextend myself, but then you end up kind of frustrated and resentful because no one's checking in. It's like, well, you've got to vocalize. What do you need? Like I could really use help with the kids. I could use an afternoon just out of the house. Like say, don't be afraid to say what you need.

Jackie: Yeah. Your spouse cannot read your mind. You always ask for help. Ask for [00:49:00] Yeah. So that's like our thing. It's like in the future. So like with an argument, it's like in the future, it would be helpful if you responded like that. Like if I did this, this is how I wish it would have gone. This is how it could go better, you know, like when I do this, this is how, whatever.

And then it would really help me if you did this, you know, to help lighten the load of whatever we're, You know, I need, I need a day retreat. I need a silent retreat.

Joey: No, I hear you guys. This is so good. I love how tactical you guys get. This is really helpful. I have another question for you, but I wanted to mention some for our audience, what we've kind of heard, uh, Catholic author Layla Miller put this into words really well.

She said that For children of divorce and people come from broken families, we often have this belief subconsciously that conflict leads to permanent separation. And so like you said before, it's like really important to expose that stuff to light to understand like, okay, this is going to maybe drive my behavior and the way I feel about conflict.

I really need to like, talk about that, bring that to mentorship therapy, wherever. Um, so, so I love that as well. And then the other thing that's been really helpful for [00:50:00] me personally is, um, business author, speaker, Pat Lincione. He talks about how trust makes conflict the pursuit of truth. And I love that line.

Like trust makes conflicted pursuit of truth. So if you can have, you know, a base level trust. Um, then any sort of conflict is just a matter of like, how do we as a team come to the best possible solution in this particular situation? Not like a, just a battle of egos. And so those have been really helpful for me and everything you guys said I'm learning from you.

So I want your advice. My wife and I were kind of butt heads on this a little bit, if I'm honest. Um, I'm the type who, when I apologize, Jackie, like you mentioned, if it was something I did with good intention and then it ended up like hurting her or ended up overlooking something else, I, you know, will sometimes like want to explain like, well, actually, here's what I was trying to do.

And it ended up, you know, hurting you or it wasn't, you weren't happy with it, but she doesn't want to hear that in the moment. And so I'm curious, like if you guys had to navigate that and what's your advice, like, is there a place for an explanation or does that just sound like an excuse to me? It's like an explanation, but to her, it kind of sounds like an excuse.

And so without oversharing or [00:51:00] anything, I think this is something that I've heard other couples struggle with as well. That when's there a place for saying like, actually, like you're just misunderstanding me versus, Hey, I'm just sorry in the future. Like you said, Jackie, I'll do it differently.

Jackie: We had an argument probably within the last year and a half that kind of, we were just kind of.

Missing each other's intentions, I think. And so Bobby came to me with something and I was like, okay, that's, this is, this is what I was doing or saying. And, and we kind of had to hash it out. So I don't mind, I mean, personally, I don't mind if we kind of hash out like. What were you actually thinking? Like, what was I thinking?

Like it was just really, we were missing each other and I think it just depends on your spouse. Like, yeah, I mean, I would say that's hard because if she doesn't in the moment want to hear an explanation, um, yeah, I, I would say maybe on your end, like you're saying, okay, what, instead of me doing this, what would you What would you have hoped that I would have done, or what would you like me to do in the future?

Because I, like, I didn't mean this to hurt you, and I would have [00:52:00] never done it if I knew it was going to hurt you, but what would you, what would you like me to do in the And not do it like, what would you like me to do in

Bobby: the future? Tone matters. Can you write up a Google doc right now? I think

Jackie: so, to ask, yeah, to ask your spouse, like, so in the future, if this happens, like what, how, how would you want me to respond or like, what would be the best way for you, for me to love you?

Like, how can I love you? Better. And so for some couples, like effort, Bobby and I, like, I remember we were sitting in our bathroom, just hashing it out. Like, well, this is what I thought. And I meant, and this is what I thought. And I meant like, okay, in the future, because then we can't change the past. We can't change what just happened, but I'm going to be more attentive to your needs.

And I'm going to make sure I voice my needs, you know? So it's like, so we kind of had to hash it out a little bit, because in my mind, I was like, I didn't do anything wrong. But. So we were kind of hashing it out because I had to understand where he was coming from and I had, you know, so like we had to really work [00:53:00] through like, okay, so in the future, we need to make sure we do this.

We need to make sure we voice our needs and we're attentive to each other's needs and we don't let things slide, you know,

Bobby: well, it's a note to that. Sometimes one of us we want to be right. And the other person just wants to be heard, you know, so you're fighting for clarity. Like what I was doing, I was after a good, I was actually trying to help and serve and wanting that validation and the other just wants to be heard for their perspective and their point of view.

And so to come to a place where, okay, can we step into each other's shoes? And see what we're seeking and then a light might require like for the male, for instance, who often wants to be right to recognize, let me subordinate that to, to realize how is my spouse feeling? How is she doing? What did my actions as good intention as they were?

What is that causing in her and understand that first? And then the hope of circling back. And once that piece is established to say, like, [00:54:00] here's what I was trying to do. I can understand how it led to this. I want to make sure in the future it's handled differently, not, not to the extreme though. It's like, you're just becoming, uh, you're letting yourself be walked over perpetually, you know, cause that, that's not the point either.

It's to honor the other. And John Paul, the second talked a lot about tenderness and being able to be tender with one another is to step into the other shoes and to experience their world, to be able to read his or her body language. I can tell when my wife is exhausted. I can tell when she is, you know, Overwhelmed with the kids and it's like, so what can I do assertively, uh, to serve?

Jackie: Yeah. So like if in that moment your wife just wants to be heard, she doesn't want an explanation necessarily. Yeah. To be like, okay, I see that at this point she just wants some, she just wants to be heard and that's okay. Like,

Joey: yeah,

Jackie: like I'm sorry. And yeah, I, I maybe at a, apart from that to say like, yes, I'm, I'm so sorry.

Like I, my intention was to help and I obviously that didn't. So in the [00:55:00] future, this is how I can help. You know,

Joey: no, I love that. No, I try to be the guinea pig for the audience. That's why I threw that out there. Um, but this is so helpful. And I know, um, what we've kind of landed on, especially in our best moments was just that, that, you know, I can just apologize and kind of eat my pride in the moment.

And then at a later time when the emotions kind of quelled, then we can have that conversation of like, well, actually I was trying to do this and I was trying to help. And I understand that, you know, it didn't come across that way. So I love that advice. Thank you guys. Um, I know we're, we're almost out of time here.

So I want to transition into mentorship. Bobby, um, if people want to continue to gain from your wisdom and, um, work with you potentially to heal and to kind of get guidance through some of the challenges they're dealing with, especially due to all the brokenness from their families. Uh, tell us a little bit about mentorship.

Uh, you're a trained mentor with Catholic Psych who we've had Dr. Pitara on the show. So what, what exactly is mentorship and any cool stories of transformation that you've seen?

Bobby: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Greg invited me to be part of the Guinea pig cohort in training people to do mentorship. As he calls it, [00:56:00] which has one foot in therapy and counseling and the best of psychology and the other foot in authentic Catholic anthropology.

And what do we mean by a flourishing human person? So we're not boxing with like one hand tied behind our back. It's, I have a vision of man and woman is God created them to be. And also the different tools in, in ministry, in psychology to help people get to that healing. And I've been blessed to do it now for a year alongside Jackie and I's speaking and media ministry.

And, uh, there's now a growing army of those of us who've graduated the program, who are hungry to help people. And walk with them and help them process because one of the sayings that we're reminded of frequently is that we're hurt in relationship and we're also healed in relationship. So we're hurt in the situations of childhood where there has been divorce, abuse, abandonment, et cetera, but what it takes.

Is right relationship a corrective [00:57:00] emotional experience, as it's so called, where I can be in a place where I am loved and I am received and I can rewrite that script and God can heal in a moment, you know, there's miracles for sure, like physical healing, psychological healings. But there's usually a process.

It's usually a process of walking with another person. It's not just one podcast episode, one YouTube video. It's there can be real insight and eureka moments, but it's usually walking with another person that I experienced God's love and healing. Uh, so yeah, I've been, I've been blessed to, to walk with many people and you know, stories of just self loathing or, or addiction.

Rocky marriages just had to take it slow and look at what's the underlying hurt. What have you been running away from? What do you refuse to acknowledge? And what you said earlier about trust, like as trust builds and you can reveal a little bit more of yourself and a little bit more of yourself and a little bit more, it's like understand like the parts of you that don't think I'm worthy of love or are so [00:58:00] afraid of repeating the script of my parents that I'm sabotaging everything and to let that click to let, to bring that into the light and let God do the rest.

It's been a real gift to have the ministry that Jackie and I have come out of to grow in this deeper, deeper way. I never thought I would be in mental health, like the mental health field. It kind of found me, but it also just really fits with my youth ministry background.

Jackie: It was beautiful. It's like you're not going to a therapist's office once a week, you know, every couple of weeks or once a month.

It's like a Monday through Friday, every day, like a 15 minute voice memo kind of back and forth. And Bobby responds within 24 hours. Like, so it's like every day you're, you're kind of, because I know for me, like, I forget what happened last week. And so, but if it's daily, I'm like, I know what happened today and how I felt today.

And, you know, it's like two days ago, I was really annoyed by something today. I'm like, I'm totally over it, you know, but it's just like for it to go daily. And then also what I love about mentorship, it can be around the world. So Bobby could [00:59:00] work with someone in the military. Who's literally stationed somewhere who they can't be at a therapist office once a week, you know, and people from.

Different countries, different time zones, and this kind of particular way of doing it is so beautiful because They could be in a halfway around the world and still, yeah, I've gotten, I've

Bobby: gotten to, to work with people in the UK and, and, uh, Australia, uh, Columbia, Costa Rica, and it's just like, praise God, like technology brings about a whole lot of not great stuff, you know, but also the gift of forums like this and new avenues of healing.

And so I'm very, very thankful for what Catholic Psych is doing. And like I said, it's, there's a whole graduated class of us open for business and ready to. To walk with anyone in your audience who needs the listening ear. I just need someone to help them process their stuff with.

Joey: I love that. Thanks for going through it.

And no, I'm, I'm a big fan. Um, for those of you listening, who don't know, we've just begun a partnership with Catholic psych. And so we, um, you know, I've been in conversation a while about this. And so we've [01:00:00] vetted it. We love what you guys are doing. And if you guys want 10 percent off your first month, you can just put in the code restored 24, all caps restored 24, and I'll get you 10 percent off your first month.

Um, and yeah, just super. Happy about just all the ways in which you guys are helping people. And I wanted to say this, I was talking to a software engineer, a woman in her twenties recently who did a year of mentorship and she was, I was wondering like, yeah, what'd you get out of it? Was it a good deal? She was like, yeah, I did the math and compared it to therapy.

Um, I think it's better than therapy, but she compared the math in terms of the price for therapy, the price for. Mentorship and the time you get and she's like, yeah, it actually wasn't even close. I got way more out of mentorship than I did out of therapy because I know that's a big concern for a lot of people.

So if you want to check that out, go to catholic psych dot com slash apply catholic psych dot com slash apply. We'll link to that in the show notes guys and you can do a free console. It's like a thing. It's a 30 minute phone call where you can just ask your questions and learn more and get all the details and.

You're not committed to anything. So definitely check that out. Thank you both so much for being here. Uh, two final questions. One, where can people find you online? How could they follow you? And then two, what [01:01:00] final advice and encouragement do you guys have for everyone listening, maybe is discouraged and struggled in relationships because of, you know, what they've been through in their own family.

Jackie: Um, so first you can find us, I mean, I'm on Instagram probably more than anything else, um, that's at Jackie Francois looks like Franco is, and then at Bobby's at Bobby it's. Dot angel, right? Bobby dot angel. And then we also have a podcast called conversations with Jackie and Bobby, where, because we love again, human formation.

So we also love talking about psychology and just people's testimonies, like miracles, kind of stuff like that. And

Bobby: yeah, our website is Jackie and Bobby dot com where it's got different Links to videos, blogs, and other resources. And then on YouTube, we've worked with Ascension Presents for a long time, which is where maybe people are familiar with us by our videos alongside Father Mike Schmitz and the CFRs and just talked a whole lot about relationships over the last Many years my my final [01:02:00] advice is is be not afraid something John Paul the second said over and over and over again because I think he knew like how easily fear paralyzes us and and those core fears and those fears of repeating the pain of my parents and the family I was I grew up in.

And Christ makes all things new. Be not afraid.

Jackie: My final thing would just be like, be patient with yourself. We're all on the journey. None of us are perfect. Like be, you know, give, give yourself grace and, and just be patient. Like you don't have to be perfect before coming into a relationship. As, as long as you're walking, you're, you're walking towards the goal.

You know, it's, we're just making movements even for me as a, as a mom with five kids, even in my own prayer life, you know, I used to read a ton. And I got it. you know, coffee shops and read theology of the body, like tons of it. And now I am a mom of five kids and I'm like, I have very little time. So my little, I'm like just little by little, right?

Poco a poco, like just little by little, like baby steps and just baby steps in your spiritual life, baby steps and like working [01:03:00] out like babysitting, like just move. A step at a time forward. So be patient with yourself and just make little steps every day.

Joey: Jackie and Bobby are amazing. I definitely encourage you guys to check out their content and especially check out catholicpsych.

com slash Bobby to see if maybe working with Bobby as a mentor is the right fit for you. He actually offers 30 minute free phone consults, and so you can go on his webpage, read about it. Maybe watch some videos. And if you want to talk with him, you can actually sign up to do a free consult to see if it's right for a few.

And he also said that if you tell him you listened to this podcast and you asked for a discount, he'd be willing to work with you for the first month to see if there's a way that he can discount his services. So again, I definitely encourage you guys to take him up on that generous offer and see if that's right for a few.

Again, go to catholicpsych. com slash Bobby, or just click the link in the show notes. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow on your podcast app, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whatever other app you use like YouTube. Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more that the [01:04:00] apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help.

And it only takes a few seconds. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We definitely appreciate it. That feedback and that also helps us to reach more people for other people to find us as well. In closing, always remember, you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction.

You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#126: Former Porn Actress: Over 90% of People in Porn are from Broken Families | Bree Solstad

Pending! Stay tuned.

Bree Solstad went from being a top-selling porn actress to quitting her job and completely turning her life around. That transformation started because of a trip to Italy. 

In this episode, Bree Solstad tells us about that and answers questions like:

• What led you to pornography in the first place?

• How did your broken family and abandonment from your father play into that?

• What percentage of performers in porn come from divorced or broken families? It’ll shock you

• What has helped you begin to heal your wounds? 

• What would you say to people who believe that porn is harmful and not wrong?

Visit Bree Solstad’s Etsy shop, Ave Maria Every Day

Follow Bree on X (former Twitter) and Instagram 

Listen to the Healing Sexual Brokenness series

For Men: Buy the Book: Forged: 33 Days Toward Freedom by Jason Evert and Matt Fradd

For Women: Join a Magdala Ministries group

Watch Sound of Freedom

Visit FightTheNewDrug.org

Visit BlackstoneFilms.co

For help with suicidal thoughts or behaviors, call or text 988, or go here.

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

  [00:00:00] We normally don't start episodes like this, but I wanted to issue a little bit of a trigger warning because this episode does contain mature content. And so if you're listening around other people, especially kids, uh, we definitely recommend putting in earphones. But with that, my guest today went from being a top selling porn actress to quitting her job and completely turning around her life.

Her amazing transformation started on a trip to Italy. And so in this episode, she tells us all about that and answers questions like, What led you to pornography in the first place? How did your broken family and the abandonment from your father play into that decision? What, what percentage would you say of people in the porn industry come from divorce and broken families?

You're going to be shocked by her answer. Uh, what has helped you to begin to heal yourself? Your wounds heal your brokenness. Do you ever feel tempted to go back into that life? And what advice would you give to a girl who's maybe considering getting into pornography or feel stuck in it? And then finally, what would you say to people who believe that porn is not harmful or wrong?

Such an [00:01:00] inspiring story. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken family. So you can break that cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 126. We're so happy that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard a lot of great feedback. One listener said this, I was brought to tears with your podcast. I agree. There are no resources out there for kids of divorced parents. My parents had no specific reason for their divorce, but now that I'm about 30, I'm looking back and seeing how huge of an impact this has had.

on my life. Love that this leans into Christian principles. Some good came out of my story, too. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's [00:02:00] episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. In a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of Millennials said video is their top content choice.

It's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that? Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know, you need to create video content, but there's so many barriers to doing it. Like you don't know how, you don't know who to hire.

You don't have the time to learn and so on. And can kind of leave you feeling, uh, Overwhelmed to the point where you just kind of give up on the idea and go back to what you know, what's comfortable, but that's where Blackstone Films can help you. They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel.

They can create things like trailers, promo videos and commercials, uh, social media, videos, documentaries, fundraising videos, uh, and even courses. We actually produced two courses with them, two video courses, and we just had an excellent experience. And so whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about helping you not just create video content, [00:03:00] but create a clear win for your business or ministry, such as fundraise for your ministry, sell a course, get leads for your business, get students to sign up for your school, promote your event, and so much more.

Blackstone has reached millions around the globe with their videos, and they can help you too. And so if you want to view their past projects and the services that they offer, just contact them. Uh, go to Blackstonefilms. co, not com. Again, that's Blackstonefilms. co or just click on the link in the show notes.

My guest today is Bree Solstad. After a past full of regrets, she converted to Christianity. She was a former Top selling porn actress and producer who had a radical conversion to Christ that began in the Catholic churches of Italy. After having a profound experience at the tomb of St. Clair of Assisi, Bree Solstad’s sinful life began to come to an end.

Bree quit all pornography, gave up her income, changed her life, and officially joined the Catholic church at [00:04:00] Easter in 2024. Bree now handcrafts one of a kind, in person, porn. heirloom quality, rosaries, and other Christian jewelry on a humble little Etsy shop called Ave Maria every day. We'll put the link in the show notes for you guys.

Bri is known on Twitter and Instagram as Miss B converted and has been utilizing her rapidly growing social media presence to share her growing faith and convince others to turn away from the plague of pornography. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm really glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this.

this episode and for even Christians listening who, who might object to some of what Bree believes. Again, my challenge is just to listen with an open mind too. And I think, you know, kind of rejoice or revel in the fact that she completely turned her life around. With that, here's my chat [00:05:00] with Bree. Bree, so good to have you.

Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's, uh, just an honor to be here. I'm so excited to just dive into your story because your transformation is just incredible. I'm so inspired by it and I love, you know, hearing more about that from anyone who's had any sort of story like yours. And so I want to get to that.

But before we get there, I'd like to start with your former life. What led you to pornography and sex work? Well, honestly, I've been trying to pinpoint like, what is the linchpin in my life that, you know, put me on this path? And I'm still not really sure exactly what it was. I know a lot of it has to do with the fact that I was raised with a single mother as an only child.

I didn't really have the dynamic of both people in my life, and that really trickled into so much. I think just having these, you know, These thoughts, maybe even in the back of my mind, my [00:06:00] subconscious of like feelings of abandonment that, you know, my father didn't want me. That sort of thing. And then really it was just the priorities in my life.

I never made God my number one priority, but I also never made myself my number one priority. Like I never really considered much of my own self worth. And from there it just spiraled out of control, you know, and I look back and it's almost like I was telling myself, this is how every 20, you know, 20 year old lives, you know, going from meaningless job to meaningless job and then just partying all the time, um, being reckless, being promiscuous.

And really, I think that a great deal of what contributed to my abuse of alcohol, my abuse of my body, my degradation, my feelings of not being worthy, I think really stemmed from when I went away to college. I [00:07:00] suddenly felt this newfound freedom, if you will, and not freedom that you think like, oh, I'm away from home and I get to make my own decisions.

No. My whole life being with a single parent, only child, my whole life was that kind of freedom where I always made my own decisions. I was extremely independent. I had to be. My mother worked all the time. I was alone all the time. I was a latchkey kid. That's why I really like crafts and animals and plants.

Like those are things that you can do by yourself. And then when I went away to school, it was suddenly like, I don't have to be the other adult in the And I didn't even realize any of this until later. You know, it was just ingrained in me and I suddenly was free to make my own decisions, but free in a way where I had this safety net of, you know, I live in a dorm room.

There are other people who are partying, uh, like they're skipping class. It seems like this could be okay for me. And this is lots of fun, you know, just having no boundaries, no [00:08:00] limits. It seemed like, like I was just really, really happy when I truly wasn't. No, it's so good. Thanks for sharing all that. And it's so fascinating.

You know, our audiences, you know, comes from, you know, broken families and there's so many wounds there. But one of the things I learned from Dr. Bob Schutz is that at the root of every wound really is a deprivation of love. And so, And so it's only natural that we would seek some form of love, even if it's not real, to fill that void.

And, you know, I think that the partying, like the seeming acceptance by the group of friends, because I fell into that when I was younger too, it feels good. It's appealing. We feel like we belong. And especially for people like us who maybe didn't feel like we belonged even in our own families because they were so broken, it can be really attractive to kind of go Go into that lifestyle.

And so, yeah, this whole thing of coming from a broken family, it's so interesting how so many of us, you know, kind of look for love in all the wrong places. And then we even, and I know we're going to get more into this, but we even sexualize our pain. We [00:09:00] sexualize what we dealt with. One of the fascinating statistics on this comes from Dr.

Patrick Carnes. I've mentioned this on the show before. He's a expert on sexual addiction, and he found that 87 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction or compulsion come from a broken family. Almost 90%. Which is just like, it's mind blowing, but like you said, it does make sense. So it's not surprising.

Like, I think when I look at my, um, younger self and, you know, when I hear your story, it's like, it makes sense. Like, it makes sense given what you've been through. It's not okay, but it makes sense given what you've been through. And, I mean, like I said, I don't know what the exact linchpin is and, you know, my mother raised me in the best way that she could, but there was definitely something lacking.

So then when this new opportunity came about, I just jumped on it. Like the idea of, you know, working from home and making a bunch of money and, and it just happens to be pornography, but you know, whatever. That was kind of, um, where my morals were at that point in my life. Because you had kind of walked down that path [00:10:00] of you know partying and pleasure seeking And it really kind of led you to a point that it almost was like a Not too big of a jump at that point.

Is that right? Yeah, so it really just Accumulated it began in college and then continued accumulating this addiction or this lifestyle Which actually then ultimately led to an addiction to alcohol or you know The alcohol addiction is always in there somewhere, but it was like the catalyst that then drove me to admitting my alcoholism.

Um, I mean, there's so many things in my life that we could unpack. Like I didn't even, I'm just, you know, throwing this on you now that, Oh yeah, I'm also a recovering alcoholic. Um, but, um, but that doesn't really have much to do with my conversion story. So I haven't really mentioned that. But one thing I want to tell you specifically that I haven't told anybody else when I was in college, I was engaged and participated when I went to class, but partying and especially drinking and sleeping [00:11:00] around.

We're my number one priorities to the point where, even though I loved going to class, I loved learning, I loved studying environmental science was my major partying, just took over everything else so that like I couldn't get up. I was too hungover to go to class. So then, and then I started skipping class and then more and more and more, and it just became more and more acceptable.

And the thing that I'd like to tell you and your listeners is that one thing I'm truly ashamed of is I went to a Lutheran university and I got a scholarship there from my church. These people, this elderly couple, they spent their retirement fund sending me to college and I completely wasted that opportunity and that's one of the things that, you know, I've, I've really struggled with that decision that I made and the, the way that I just completely wasted not only like my time, my energy, [00:12:00] but their money also.

It's a decision that. I would urge others to take seriously. If you're given an opportunity like that, don't waste it. Yeah, no. Thanks for sharing that too, and No, your transformation is so beautiful. We'll get to that shortly, but it makes so much sense again Everything that you went through kind of where you landed and I remember talking to in another interview Jay Stringer Who's this awesome author and therapist?

He was talking about this whole experience of coming from you know, a broken family and enduring trauma like you did and yeah He says the first experience often is one of fragmentation where we just feel really broken. We feel like our life is not cohesive It's not integrated. It's just so broken Broken into pieces and such a mess, really, to put it in simple terms.

And that usually leads us to seek out some form of numbing ourselves because the pain is too much to bear. And so, you know, like you said, in your story, it was alcohol, it was partying, it was sex, all that stuff. And my story was principally, you know, pornography and other sexual sins. Um, it was just like, I needed something to numb the pain.

That was my way of coping. [00:13:00] Precisely. Getting out of this reality here and now. Like there was an easier, it was an escape. It was a way to get away from just the difficulties of facing, you know, my parents splitting apart, just all the drama and sadness that came with that. And, um, and then that leads to, so again, we started with fragmentation, that brokenness, then we led to numbing, which looks different for different people, and then finally you kind of end up in isolation where it's just this intense loneliness where like, man, I regret what I've done, but I'm still feeling the pain.

And I feel like no one's there for me. There's no one there to like, as Jay Singer says, like, catch my tears, to hold my face, to see me like go through this and just love me through it. And so then we get in the cycle, we then feel more broken and fragmented. We then need to know more and then we'd feel a bit more isolated.

And then we just go down into this endless pit. Does that seem to describe your story? Yeah. Definitely in terms of my addictions, in terms of my bad decisions, but also in terms of producing [00:14:00] pornography where like it's, it's not an addiction. Um, it's not something for which like women need a support group, but it can be very isolating.

It can be, You know, intoxicating and you can easily feel trapped. I remember, you know, when I considered giving up this life, this career, I was really scared. I was really nervous about the money, but then I started thinking, okay, well let's consider, you know, you don't have to go on these extravagant trips or buy these.

ridiculously overpriced shoes anymore. That's perfectly fine. I'm willing to give up all that because of, you know, the happiness that I found within myself and the relationship that I have with God now. But let's even, let's take all of that out of the equation and say that, okay, you can get like a, just an average job, you know, like at a garden center or something.

That'd be fun, fruitful, pun intended, but who's going to hire you? Like, what are you going to write on the application? Like, forget about seeming professional and showing up with a resume. Okay. [00:15:00] Like, even if you're just going to pencil in on some application, they've Xeroxed for you. What are you going to say?

There's nothing you can't, you can't even use some flowery euphemism, like, you know, artistic entertainer, or like, that's just going to lead to more questions and you're trapped because you feel like you've done this for so long that you don't know how to do anything else. And then, you know, tragically, a lot of people in this industry also feel like they've done this for so long and it kind of, and it weighs on them and it seeps into their subconscious to the point where then they don't feel like they're worthy of doing anything else.

Like, this is not only all that they can do, but this is all that they can do. They're trapped in so many different ways. And I think that addiction is similar, but both, you know, are about reexamining your priorities, reexamining your life, and asking yourself, like, is this really what I want? Is this really, you know, helpful to me?

And then also being honest with yourself, which is hard to do when you're in the throes of addiction, especially. How many [00:16:00] years did you end up doing pornography for? And I'm curious, like, were there regular intervals where you felt like, man, I don't know if I should be doing this. I need to get out of it.

I was in the industry for just under 10 years and honestly, no, it really wasn't until I started going to church regularly that I even considered leaving the industry. That is something that I think will come in time. I'm still like, Unpacking a lot of things that have gone on in my life and and it's kind of funny It's like almost a timeline of like things that I regret and they come up almost in the same Timeline that they occurred or that I did them and I think I'm not quite to the point where I'm ready to really examine the effects of what I did through pornography because at the time I know that Like, now, I, I regret what I did, but at the time, I didn't consider that it was wrong at all.[00:17:00]

I would use my money for myself, but also, like, I was able to, you know, buy my mom really extravagant Mother's Day gifts, or, you know, send my godmother a bouquet for Mother's Day. The re It's funny, I mention this now, because it was just recently Mother's Day, and I remember, and like, now, I'm like, I don't have enough money to send them these big, huge bouquets anymore.

But that's okay, you know? And my godmother doesn't know. But my mom understands that I'm not making as much money anymore. And it's not like they would expect these things. But it's just, it's also kind of ridiculously humorous to think that I was buying these Mother's Day bouquets for these women in my life with the money that I made from pornography.

And I never considered that it was ridiculous. I never considered that my life was just kind of ridiculous, like, full of sin, full of pride, full of vanity, and full of loneliness, full of hopelessness. [00:18:00] You feel trapped in so many different ways, and this is yet another way. Like, you feel trapped mentally, because your mind is telling you one thing, but also telling you a different thing.

And it's so easy to justify. I know this from my addictions with alcohol, as well as, like, all the detrimental things that I did throughout my career in pornography. It's so easy to justify that this is fine. Or even just, I won't think about it now. I'll think about it tomorrow. And just move on. But I urge, I urge people not to do that.

I urge people, really, to just take an examination of your consciousness. Take an examination of your feelings, also. That's something that I really didn't do enough. And be honest with yourself. Are you actually happy? And I read this in a self help book once, and the book itself wasn't really that good. I don't even remember the title of it, but there's one part that was really good, and it said something like, ask yourself, what would my life look like if I stopped drinking?

If I stopped producing pornography? If I stopped [00:19:00] watching pornography? And then really think about that. And again, it's easy to lie to yourself. But I think that most people would say that their lives look so much better without their addiction, without this overwhelming sin. And we're, we're all sinners continually all the time.

Um, some more than others, but that's not a reason to continue doing it. That's not a justification. You're not alone, but at the same time, like expect more from yourself. You know try to do better. I'm not really sure what the question was. Yeah. No. No, I love that advice. No, that's so good Yeah No I love that advice because I think you're right a lot of people and perhaps this is what you were going through when you're in The midst of this is we kind of get in this autopilot Mode in life or survival mode like we get these opportunities in life We kind of walk through those doors and then our life is the way it is and we kind of have this feeling that it's Always just gonna be this way And we don't think we can really grow or improve and our life can get better.

And so we just kind of continue on that path. Because change [00:20:00] is hard. Transforming is hard. You know, it's not easy to go from being, you know, out of shape to getting into really good shape. It's not easy to, you know, go from, you know, Maybe not having skills that are, can be paid a lot of money to getting those skills to being paid a lot of money.

Not to say that's like, needs to be a goal for everyone, but just giving it as an example. And so, um, it's hard and it's a lot easier, it's a lot more comfortable not to do that. And like, you know, you said before too, there's this question of like, worth. It's like, well, You know, I, even if I maybe could pull that off, which I don't really think I could, you know, I'm really, I'm not worth it.

I'm, I'm not someone who, you know, people would look at and say like, Oh yeah, they're definitely going to be able to do that and make it. And they're definitely, you know, have a lot of confidence and dignity or whatever we want to call it. So I think it makes so much sense. And the thing you said about justifying too, it's a fascinating in, uh, when you build a home.

Um, I guess this is in like, um, architecture and in carpentry when a wall is crooked, like, let's say one of the studs is like, you know, the wall is kind of leaning over the, the action of straightening it [00:21:00] as justifying it. And so in life, like we only feel the need to justify things that aren't like, uh, on the straight and narrow.

And so, like you were saying, I think that's a good, a little litmus test too, for things. It's like, Do you feel the need to justify the way you're living your life right now? Do you feel the need to, you know, say that it's okay when in reality it might not be? And so I think that there's so many lessons in what you said.

And the final thing I was going to say was, when it comes to the shift out of that industry, my goodness, how scary. Like seriously, I think that that can't be overstated. It's like, this is literally, especially since that was pretty much after college onward, that was what you knew that was your job, that was your skill set.

And so going on to do something out, you're truly just starting from zero in a lot of ways, you know, maybe there's some, Lessons and virtues that you already had baked into you that you can use but my goodness that is scary I've heard it similar with like, you know, like Protestant pastors who convert to Catholicism just as one example You know They literally have been running a church their livelihood comes from that their friendships like their family even [00:22:00] and then they you know convert to Catholicism, let's say.

And then it's like, well, now I don't have a job. I might not even have a family. I don't have a church. Like, it's like devastating. So there are those sorts of careers that I think it'd be really, really difficult to shift out of. So yeah. Any thoughts on that before we continue on? Well, it's especially frustrating for me because in the industry that I was, I wasn't just a performer.

I was a producer. Like my favorite thing was editing videos and doing crazy things with like green screen and special effects and that sort of thing. I took a class at a community college for these things and got really into it and I'm really good at it and it's lots of fun. But that's another frustrating element is like when I was Going through my conversion, I was watching a lot of videos online and I was thinking, well, maybe like for the, for example, like the Catholic hippie, she sometimes plugs rosaries, like, um, promotes them, people who sell them.

So I thought, [00:23:00] And we'll get into that, but I now sell rosaries and um, I thought, okay, maybe we could do an exchange like she could promote my rosary business and I could edit her videos for her. And then I was like, I can't send her any of my work. What am I going to do? Like, just, okay, pretend like I'm wearing like all my clothes and that I'm saying things that are completely different and tell me what you think.

Like, that's not going to work. Can't do that, yeah. I can't expose this woman to what I did. And so that, yeah, that's another frustrating thing is, I mean, I think you do pick up some skills that are like, that could be. beneficial in the real world. But again, you, you can't use them. You can't apply them to anything because of your past.

Yeah. Okay. No, I get that. You, it's hard. You can't show any sort of like track record cause you want to leave that life behind and yeah, totally makes sense. And thanks for sharing all of that. And I want to go back to your family situation. I'm just curious, um, Yeah, just over the years, the struggles and kind of brokenness, [00:24:00] wounds you've, you've dealt with when it comes to just the fact that your dad was absent from your life.

You mentioned abandonment and things like that. Um, yeah, just curious if you had anything to add on top of what we've already talked about when it comes to just how that experience contributed to this life and yeah, how hard that was too. I think that a lot of my story, it's hard for me to say that I completely regret everything because everything led me to where I am now.

And to have such a great appreciation for my mindset, for the love that I feel for myself, for others, It's from adversity that these things came about, but really what I think, what I think about a lot is another person's life, and how great it would be if they could skip all of that. And I think that for me coming, like being, coming from my situation, my home life, there weren't all that many opportunities.

to [00:25:00] better my situation. But I think that being around people who do have, you know, a secure home life, who do have confidence in themselves, who think highly of themselves, who, who have God in their life. I think that that's something that's really beneficial. And also, just not feeling so alone. I know that, I mean, you were, in some cases, abandoned.

Like, in a lot of cases, you know, I think that it's harder sometimes, maybe if you're used to having a father figure or both parents, and then suddenly there's this shift and there's this change, and like, what did I do, what did I, But for me, I never knew my father. So, and he wasn't somebody who my mother respected.

Uh, we actually referred to him as the sperm donor as I was growing up. And it was kind of like a little joke. But I now realize that even that little joke has had an effect on how I view men. How I viewed relationships. How I viewed [00:26:00] intimacy, like all these things have come about because I was raised in a single parent home and I'm not sure that they, that that, I mean, I know that that's not the only factor, but if you're in that sort of situation, like don't be afraid to ask for help.

With your child and, or, you know, or your own life and bringing more faith and more goodness into your life. I think that, that, that always helps. I couldn't agree more. For me, the kind of pivots in my life, the times where I was able to kind of turn a corner, break through, whatever you want to call it, came one when I got new friends.

You know, I've heard your friends are like an elevator. They either take you up or take you down. And the friends I was hanging around with, they were certainly taking me down. They were like my sports buddies and I loved them, you know, and I still look back on them. I don't like hate them by any means. I think that they came from really broken situations too.

And they were just like caught up in this culture that was like, you know, into pornography. They were into like, we were so young too. Like we're like 11. year old [00:27:00] kids, you know, and, and that was my, you know, that was the time I was exposed to pornography. And so 11, 12, 13 year old kids, and just kind of sucked up by this culture.

And for me, for some reason, I always knew that I wanted to be happy. And I knew that that wasn't making me happy. I knew that it was working to numb pain, that it was kind of an escape, like we discussed, but I knew it wasn't ultimately making me happy. And so I met these new friends, and these new friends were like, really happy people, like not fake happy, but like genuinely joyful people.

And I was like, whatever it is you have, like, I just want that. And I noticed like when I spent more time with them, I was happier. And when I spent more time with my sports buddies, I was more miserable. And so I just started spending more time with them. And I was honestly like, I was afraid for them to know kind of like the real me.

So I would just kind of fake it till I made it. And so, you know, I, I certainly just started to adopt their life. And, and that like really, really helped. And those friends were these. Christians, Catholic Christians, who were really, you know, on fire for their faith, and they were, you know, just, just like good people.

And, uh, so anyway, I started to be like them, [00:28:00] to build virtue, to pray, to just learn my faith, seek out God's plan for my life, all that stuff. And, and that really, really helped. But the other thing I was going to say, just to second what you said about, um, maybe speaking to parents or young people who are coming from broken families, um, the mentors in your life can fill the void of a father who abandoned you.

And it's never going to fill it in a perfect way. Like you're never going to be able to go find another man in your life. Who's going to perfectly be your dad. Like you only have one biological father. And when that's person's ripped from your life, for whatever reason, it's hard, you know, it leaves a wound.

Um, but my goodness, have I experienced so much healing through just the men in my life who've kind of taken me under their wing, who mentored me, who've guided me through the challenges that I face, who've really affirmed me, just showing me that, you know, especially when I thought maybe I was worthless or You know, that I thought whatever struggles I was dealing with at the time were kind of, they defined me.

They would come in and say, no, no, no, you're so much more than that. And they would just affirm me, you know, and who I am. So anyway, that, that was like really helpful for me too. So just, I just love the advice you said. And I think it's so important to surround [00:29:00] yourself with good people, both in terms of people beside you, your friends, but also people ahead of you who are mentors, who can kind of show you like, you know, what, How you need to live.

It's so, so valuable, especially if you didn't have that in your family. Yeah, I agree. Definitely. I want to, um, get to your transformation more, but I'm just curious. I wanted your opinion on this. If you had to guess, what percentage of people in sex work and pornography do you think come from divorced and broken families?

Meaning, you know, their parents were divorced or they had a really dysfunctional home life. I'd say probably, like, 95%. At least in the 90s. Yeah, I think that it takes a certain kind of person to set aside what society deems as acceptable and be somebody completely different and I think that a lot of you know It's something I say a lot when like in regards to really horrible people monsters aren't born They're created so and I think that that can be said for for, you know, a lot of [00:30:00] different things that plague us.

They're not something that, that we're born with. They're something that has accumulated because of, you know, something that happened or something that we did. And I think that, you know, most of the women who are in this industry, okay, well, I should speak to what I know. For me and for the friends that I had, We were, like, kind of caring people, and um, nice women, and, I mean, I don't, I don't think I was a bad person, but the work that I did, and without going into too much detail, the meaner I was, the more they liked it, and the more they would pay me.

So then, it's kind of like, um, I can't remember his name, the scientist who rang the bell. Um, and the dog slobbered and Pavlov Pavlov. Yes. Thank you. You know, it's kind of like something that you can't help But then actually start to become this person who they want you to be Because [00:31:00] the more selfish, the more egotistical, the more bratty, the more vain I was, the more, like, offensive I was, or, um, narcissistic, especially, like, throwing other people under the bus for my own gain, the more that I would, you know, Be acclaimed, not just by clients either, but also other women in the industry.

And so you're in that, you know, continuously spinning wheel. You're eventually going to start to feel these ways and you're going to start to think this. And, and I think that's something to be. Cognizant of but also just to know that these sort of things can happen to you that within you know the things that you surround yourself with those sports friends or you know people who are really into Fancy shoes and that's what will form who you are and and I think it's important to remember that really Couldn't agree more.

And thanks for going into that. I think it's important to [00:32:00] mention, I know some people kind of tiptoe around these subjects of like pornography, but I think it's important we talk about it because there's so many lessons in your story and what you were saying. And when it comes to like, just to push into that a little bit, um, when it comes to, The whole, how our sexuality becomes so distorted and perverted, like the deeper we get down that path.

It's so, it's fascinating, it's sad, it's really interesting to kind of think about and study. I know Jay Stringer, who I mentioned, um, in episode 102, if you guys want to check that out, he has so much insight into this. He studied 4, 000 people who struggle with sexual addictions or compulsions, and he just really went deep into it.

And one of the things that he found is like, my goodness, your sexual desires, your fantasies, even he, they even looked at pornography searches, um, in their study. They say so much about the ways in which you were harmed, the trauma you endured, like, it's insane. They're able to look at someone's pornography searches or the, you know, fantasies that they have, and they're able to connect that with specific traumas they'd had in their life.

For example, it's like, oh, your mom was really controlling, and this [00:33:00] correlates with this sort of genre of pornography that you go after. It's so fascinating. So that was, I think it's really important. So one of the things that I learned from him is that there's so much underneath the surface that a lot of people don't think about that maybe you intuitively know that when it comes to anger and power and pornography.

Like, there's so much there that he, you know, he explained it well in the episode, and I'm not going to do nearly as good of a job, but he was basically saying that there's so much anger that we feel as humans for so many reasons, right? And anger is just this response that we feel at a real or perceived injustice.

So there might be something in our life, especially as it relates to the sexes, which is really interesting. So it's like if men Uh, you know, if these important men in your life treated you this way, or these important women in your life, like your mom, or girlfriend, or wife, treated you this way, then you might tend to think of all women that way.

And then therefore, um, you know, like, for example, this is just an example, if you had, you know, a mother who was really controlling and belittling, you might seek pornography or, you know, fantasies [00:34:00] that put you in a position of power over women. Um, because there's a lot of, maybe, untapped anger there that, you know, It gives you, you know, pornography becomes kind of an outlet to reverse that, uh, misery that you're living through.

And so anyway, he does a better job explaining it than I could. And his book is awesome, Unwanted, by the way, um, recommend people look, check that out. We'll, we'll link to it in the show notes, but yeah, so, so everything you're saying makes so much sense to me that, um, you know, kind of the deeper you go into that world of like perversion and twisting what's supposed to be really beautiful, good gift to our sexuality, the, the kind of more ravenous, almost an animal like that we become.

Definitely. And I was taught that, I mean, my mother really impressed upon me that the act of sex was making love. And it was something that you did between a man and a woman that you love and you're committed. And then I think that it just, once, that was when I was really little. And then once I got older, I think it just kind of, it was one of those things that like, Oh yeah, like, You know, that's just a, maybe like an [00:35:00] old wives tale or like something that your mom tells you when you're growing up, but it's not really true.

Um, like look at, you know, just turn on the TV, there's two people having sex. Like, it could be anything. And, uh, it's not, I mean we see it everywhere. And I think that not only the, like the beauty and the sanctity of sex and the act of sex, has completely been erased from our society. But now the pornography and the pornification of sex is just becoming more and more acceptable within our society.

And, um, and it's tricky. Absolutely. No. And I, I, I love that distinction and that comparison of like, you know, it's not that, you know, the world doesn't glorify sex. It really degrades it. It really makes this like, into like subhuman animalistic thing where like you said, it's really meant to be making love.

And it becomes this really, again, degraded thing that I think we all know that we want better [00:36:00] than that, but maybe we think that it's not even possible to have something better than that. And so, no, so many good lessons in there. So thank you for going into all that. I do want to transition into your story and into your, um, transformation.

It's just incredibly beautiful. What was it that, yes, sparked that exit from pornography and ultimately your conversion? Well, it started with a tragedy, um, like all great stories. Something happened about three years ago that ultimately it was just a freak accident and it was a horrible occurrence, but it's something that has plagued me and filled me with guilt and sorrow and depression.

And it's my greatest grief. And I have been in therapy for the past three years because of it. And it's slowly, it was slowly getting a little bit better, but still my own sense of guilt. And again, also self worth and even just desire to live my life [00:37:00] was in question. And after this, I, I was fully committed to killing myself and it wasn't.

It wasn't even a thought. I was like, yep, that's what I'm doing tomorrow morning. I'm going to do this, this, this, and this. And, um, by the grace of God, my husband wouldn't leave me alone and he, he stayed with me for like two weeks pretty much. He took time off work. So, um, but none of these things helped.

This was my fault. It was my doing and, and now my life is over because of this. Then, last spring, I had an opportunity to go to Italy. My mother in law actually paid for tickets for all of us to go. And, I was really excited about that, of course, obviously. Uh, we took like six months to prepare. I got, you know, Italian in 40 minutes a day.

And, but most of the preparation that I did was really about, the things that I wanted to see, the artwork there. And when you're in Italy, um, the hub of the greatest artwork of all of Western [00:38:00] civilization, in my opinion, the greatest art is in the churches, churches, basilicas. We visited dozens, uh, I want to say probably like over 50, but that was like our main focus was going to these churches.

And initially it was just for the artwork, you know, nothing religious, you know, I'm not Catholic, but at the same time I was like, well, I kinda, I want to get into it though. You know, I want to be like when in Rome, you do as the Romans do. So we're visiting these churches, they're Catholic churches. And I know that Catholics wear a veil when they go into a church just as a form of respect.

So. I figure, all right, I gotta, I gotta try this. I'll wear a veil, you know, have fun. I'll be Catholic. Um, so we go and every time outside of a church, even just like a tiny little Basilica, I put on my veil, then I start to, I start to kneel and cross myself when I go in again, just like, look at how funny am I, you know, I'm Catholic.

Um, and just kind of getting a kick out of it. [00:39:00] And then. And, like, the artwork is incredible, it's amazing, it really is. But then, something inside of me started to change a little bit, where instead of just appreciating the artwork for what it was, or instead of veiling and crossing myself just because that's what we did, I started getting into it.

Like, wow, this art is beautiful, but, like, look at the way that, um, Jesus has his arm around Mary, like, in, in this fresco. Or look at the way that this person's, you know. Intimating this sort of reaction and I started really like being moved and touched and Appreciating the artwork for the theology as well as just its beauty and then I started like it was almost like a fake it Till you make it kind of thing where I was crossing myself initially just because that's what they do But and then I started like actually saying the words looking up at the crucifix when I did so acknowledging the crucifix And, but still, at this point, remember, I have this intense tragedy that's weighing on my shoulders, and I, when this [00:40:00] occurred, I had tried praying to God, and I tried, you know, like I had touched on before, I was raised Lutheran, but completely fell away from the church ever since college.

God's been pretty much non existent in my life. But you better believe that as soon as this tragedy occurs, like, He's my number one, you know, concern, and I'm like, Hey. You know, I'm praying now, so you gotta listen to me. Like, I haven't prayed or talked to you or done anything beneficial in the last 20 years, but now I need something, and I need something that I've never needed before in my entire life, and I expect you to do this now.

And I prayed so hard that night that I can still remember, like, my knuckles were white because I was squeezing my fingers so hard, and he didn't do anything, or so I thought. Jesus didn't respond to me at all that evening, and so, I was done with him completely. Like what little amount of relationship that we had was completely over.

So this affected me when I was in Italy, even just going into churches. Initially, like I said, it was, it was for the artwork. So it wasn't that big a deal. But [00:41:00] then when I started crossing myself, when I started really looking at the theology of the pictures, I was like, okay, I I'm in God's house and I, I still don't want to talk to God.

I don't, I don't have anything to say to him. And like, even just thinking about talking to God made me like start to tear up. But in these churches and basilicas in Italy, in addition to the crucifix, you could always find Mary somewhere. And I started going to her, like, physically, literally, I would, you know, kind of walk around.

Because she wasn't always right there, present. Like, sometimes she was in, like, a smaller alcove. Or, in Italy, you probably remember the edicolas. They're the frescoes that are on the street corners and, like, on just, like, random sides of buildings and stuff like that. And it's, it's always Mary illuminated.

And she was just everywhere. And And I started noticing her and I started thinking that, okay, this is kind of weird. Like, why are you, you stalking me basically. Um, [00:42:00] and And then I thought, I thought about her and her life and what she went through, and I thought about how she had this intense tragedy, even greater than my own, where she went through something similar where it was completely out of her hands and her son was put upon a cross, tortured, died a really awful death.

And she went through all of this with grace and with dignity. And, and that was. That's what helped me to be able to be in a house of God, to be able to even consider talking to God, because I was able to talk to Mary. Mary is, she was born without sin, and she is the mother of God, but she's still human.

And she was the one who asked Jesus, kind of, at the wedding of Cana, she was the one who said, Hey, these people don't have any more wine, and I need you to help them. They're really good friends. I really don't want them to be embarrassed. And he said, It's not my time yet. But he did it anyway because [00:43:00] she asked.

And that was, I kind of think of that as like, that's kind of what started the ball rolling that ultimately got him on the cross. He said it wasn't his time, but she said, please. And so in a way, I like to think of that. Mary didn't really know what she was asking. She didn't know that, okay, if you do this, then you're going to be crucified sooner than later.

Um, I'm not saying that, but in a way I think that she. She knew what was going to happen. She knew that she was going to have these swords pierce her heart, and yet she continued forward, and she lived her life with grace and beauty. And she was a huge part of my conversion process, and then, and just my healing, really.

And being able to talk to God again, but it doesn't end there. Um, so from there we went to Assisi, um, because St. Francis is amazing, awesome. And like I've told you [00:44:00] before, I. Animals have always been a big part of my life, and even non Catholics know about St. Francis. I think he's like the gateway drug to Catholicism, or like the gateway saint almost.

Where it's like, even secular people are like, yeah, St. Francis! It's cool, he's in a dog. Um, and that's how I was, I'll admit it. Went to Assisi primarily just for St. Francis, but then knew about St. Clair, his female counterpart, just from, again, I did a bunch of research before going there and so I learned about their story.

Um, but she's like a footnote, you know, in his story. As it turns out, she was really the shining hero of my story. And I remember we, okay, we went to a CC. We went and, and looked at all these amazing things and all these different historical places where history was made. And we visited St. Claire's tomb and not really thinking much about it.

I still remember standing in [00:45:00] line and, um, like telling other people to they were talking loudly and you're not supposed to talk loudly and you're supposed to be respectful. It wasn't like I was expecting anything at all. I was just coming, you know. I had an opportunity to kneel in front of her tomb and so I'm gonna do it.

I kneel in front of her tomb, I close my eyes and I, I had a vision of her. I'm not saying that I'm some sort of mystic or that like she appeared in front of me or anything. Yes, my eyes were closed, but I could see her distinctly right in front of me. She was wearing this cream colored, like, satin gown, which is weird, too.

Um, I've really, like, gone over every detail in my mind because I want to make sure that this is, this is legit. I don't, I don't want to be telling a story where like, actually it's just some sort of, you know, um, something that I've manifested in my head. So I think to myself, you know, why would she be wearing this gown if it was something I just manifested in my head?

Wouldn't she be wearing her like classic hair [00:46:00] shirt? Because, you know, That's what I learned about up until that point that she was like always in this hair shirt. I've learned differently since then like she actually used to wear it in secret because because her her health was really ailing and her Her sisters would they're like no you can't wear that anymore and she'd she'd keep it under her pillow to keep it secret My wild lady.

Um So i'm kneeling at her tomb I have my eyes closed she's appears before me in this satin gown And I can really only kind of see the bottom half of her body and the top half is kind of in this bright light. But she shows me her arms. Um, she says, see how soft my arms are. She shows me her lap. She says to me that that she'll take it.

She said, you can put her here, you can put her here and I'll take care of her. And you don't have to do all this on your own anymore. And you don't have to be the one. To carry all this by yourself, because I'll help you. [00:47:00] And, and, ultimately, I think, also, what she was trying to tell me was that, you know, I can take your suffering, and I'll bring it and give it up to God for you.

Because, at this point, I'm still not ready to talk to God. I don't want to have anything to do with Him. And she was, I didn't even really know what, um, an intercessor does or, um, anything like that as, as far as like Catholic people. Um, but I think now I can say that I think that's what she was offering to me, to be my intercessor, to be my go between when I wasn't ready to talk to God yet.

And she was also just offering me the opportunity to not be alone and not have to carry this. This pain with me all by myself anymore, and I got up from her tomb and I'd like to say that everything changed and now we're all happily ever after. I became Catholic and yadda yadda. Not yadda yadda, but you know what I'm saying, but that's not the case.

I got up from her tomb [00:48:00] still crying. I went into one of the kneelers and prayed for a while. I was able to stop crying, but I didn't really think much of it until several months later until I really decided to jump in with two feet and become Catholic and Then I really started thinking about what was she saying to me because I remember leaving there and like Being able to breathe easier having like this weight lifted off of my chest but not really understanding it and not really thinking it was some sort of supernatural occurrence and now I I think that she came to me.

I think that she chose me to help me. I hope she forgives me for, you know, going to a CC only to see St. Francis, but I think she's good at that. Um, and since then, uh, I chose her to be my confirmation saint. And I just, I really love speaking on, on like her acts and her, her life. I, it's just [00:49:00] phenomenal and really impressive.

And so, yeah, that was a pretty. special experience. So that was really well. What started it and then from there I came home, you know, after an experience like that after not just with Claire but with Mary and even with the crucifix, with Jesus, with everything, I couldn't go back to the way that I was living.

I wasn't sure about going to mass because I was a Christian. you know, Lutheran, but, um, but I, I wanted those feelings that I'd gotten in Italy and I, I'd never felt that in a Lutheran church. And, um, so I started to go to mass, um, you know, semi regularly if for no other reason, just to rekindle those feelings that I had in Italy.

And then I considered actually becoming Catholic, but I wanted to talk to an authority first before I completely made, made up my mind. So I made an appointment with a priest and I went and spoke with him at length and that's [00:50:00] when everything changed. Um, when he told me that God loved me and God wanted me to be happy, it was like a drink of water after a 20 year drought.

And I didn't even realize I was thirsty, but I was so extremely thirsty. And that's kind of like how I was living, you know, ever since my 20s, was I didn't realize how unhappy I was. I just was going day to day, I think like most people maybe, and I didn't realize that there could be something better. And it was that conversation with a priest that illuminated that in my life and in my mind.

And I started crying and I just really haven't stopped since. Uh, it was an amazingly fruitful discussion. And then also, even before I got to speak with the priest, I was speaking with his secretary and those same exact feelings that you talk about, Joy, were, I want what she has. Within, like, I was [00:51:00] there, I got there kind of early and I think it was maybe like five I had told her my whole life story about, even about my recent miscarriages and, like, everything that had happened to me.

And somehow, I don't know, I just completely opened up to this woman. And then she told me about how her son had committed suicide. And I'm thinking to myself, like, man, I thought that I was selfish before, egotistical before. Like, nothing that has happened in my life could be that bad. That your son committed suicide, but look at this woman.

Look at the faith and the beauty and just the friendliness. She was so friendly and so happy and so beautiful and I wanted that. I, I, not even like before I got to the priest I was like, Man, I like this woman, like, I'd like to be friends with her after I talk to the priest. Man, I like this woman. I'd like to be in class with her.

It turned out actually she was the instructor for RCIA. [00:52:00] Um, so it just worked out, like, perfectly. And at that point I jumped in with both feet, wholeheartedly, no looking back. And I'm so much happier for it. What a story. My goodness. So many layers to it. I love how your, yeah, just going to Italy was kind of the spark of this transformation, because I absolutely love Italy.

I come from an Italian family. I've had the opportunity to travel over there and spend time, and I worked over there actually for a little while. And, um, my goodness. I just love it. So, you're getting me excited. I want to go back, but, uh. Oh, it's so amazing there. I mean, you can't, you can't help but be Catholic when you're there also, or at least appreciate the Catholicism and just the spirituality, the faith.

And then, you know, not to mention the food and the climate and, oh my gosh. My goodness. It's just, it's just unreal. So, so good. There's so much I want to talk to you about, but this tragedy that you went through, I'm so sorry for that. I think it's such a normal, like a natural occurrence for those of us who maybe are far from God [00:53:00] to then go to God in those moments of pain.

It makes so much sense. Um, you had that experience of disappointment of being like, God, you didn't come through for me when I needed you. And I'm really curious to kind of press into that. Cause it seems like that he was kind of working in the background behind the scenes. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you tell me.

And then he did come through for you in a way that maybe you didn't expect. But I think it is really important because a lot of people find themselves exactly where you were, that the pain and suffering in their life is this major wedge between them and our relationship with God. I think it's the number one reason that people.

Give up on God in faith in my opinion It's just like the pain and suffering they see in their lives or the lives of people that they love and care about Um, and so yeah So we can treat God as I've heard father Mike Schmidt say is this like divine vending machine or like give me this give me that I want you to just like fix this area of my life.

I don't want a relationship with you Just want you to be like this technician that comes in and just magically fixes this thing. How did, how has your kind of view of God transformed through this experience where maybe you saw [00:54:00] somewhat of that, again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but then now you see that there's, there needs to be a relationship and there needs to be like, he's caring for you, but he might not give you always what you want, but he will give you what you need in time.

It is. It's extremely difficult to go through life without God. And it's extremely difficult to go through tragedy without God. And my answer was to turn my back on God, initially, and that didn't work. But then, I think, one thing I want to say is that it's remarkable, like, my recovery time, if you will, of tragedy, since having God in my life, and prior to having God in my life.

And, like, the recovery time, like, you're still gonna have tragedies, you're still gonna have things that go wrong in your life. But the recovery time for me has been, it's like, you know, night and day, really. And, God, it's hard to hear, and it's hard to believe, but God does answer prayers. [00:55:00] And, for me, what I've realized, and I'm still not there, You know, a hundred percent like, Yay, I'm so glad that this happened to me, and you took this tragedy and you made it into something good.

Good for you. Um, you know, let's not lie or be fake. I still wish this hadn't happened. I'm still kind of mad that he chose You know this sort of thing in order to get me into the Catholic Church But I think that's ultimately what he did and I'm not saying that he chose to put this tragedy in my life for this but I was praying that I could see her again and I think because As he has opened up my mind to the faith and to the church and to this sort of, this way of life and opened up my mind to the detriments of my previous way of life, that means that in some way I'm going to be able to see her again sooner rather than later.

Because I do really believe in purgatory. Not the Lutheran form of purgatory, but a purgatory [00:56:00] where, you know, you have to prepare yourself. God. Um, so think of it like the scene in the wizard of Oz. They go through like a whole afternoon of like, you know, she gets her hair curled, like the tin man gets all shined up and this is just to meet the wizard.

But think of like how much prep you have to go through to meet God. And it's like, Well, you have to shed these certain things that you're still clinging to. And one of the things that I'm still clinging to is my guilt and my sadness over what happened. And I think that he brought Catholicism into my life to help me with this guilt, to help me with this sadness.

And therefore, I'm not going to have to spend as much time in purgatory and I can get to heaven to see my loved one sooner. I also think that maybe he didn't necessarily put this tragedy in my life, but he used this tragedy in order to get me to go back to church ultimately. Um, and then also to join the Catholic church because [00:57:00] I was raised Lutheran.

And when we did go to church, which was, you know, like Easter, Christmas, where some of those people, but also. Like, just every now and then, I would be like, You know, I remember just really liking church when I was young. Why don't we try it? And my husband was like, Okay, I guess. And we'd always go to a Lutheran church, because that's how I was raised.

And then, during my tragedy, my husband kind of reconverted. back into the Catholic faith, got really into the Catholic faith, and then, and at the time I felt, well, I've lost him. Like, he's just doing his own thing, and I'm gonna be stuck here in my tragedy. Um, and he started going to Catholic Mass, so then, after I came out of this funk and was able, after Italy, after I was able to consider that, you know, maybe my life is worth something.

Maybe I can go on. Maybe I can have joy and happiness because remember I told you the day after this occurred I was like, I'm taking the shotgun. I'm going to the [00:58:00] backyard. I Already had my note planned for my husband for my mother all this and so to go from there To entering into the Catholic Church took some time and I didn't want to have anything to do with God Meanwhile, my husband's really into God and I'm kind of offended by that You But then he starts going to mass and then so after Italy even if like I I really wanted to continue going to Mass because of those same feelings that I got in Italy But even if I wanted to go to a Lutheran Church, like it was too late.

My husband was already Catholic So it's not like we're gonna go to two different churches And so, I think, in a way, I mean, I'm never going to understand, no matter how much I ask, um, no matter how much I think about it, I'm never going to understand why God does what He does, and especially in that circumstance.

And I tell myself, you know, you're never going to know the reason why until you get to Heaven, and until, and at that point, you're not going to care anymore. So just stop thinking about it. [00:59:00] And I'm never going to know. But his, you know, path for me in that moment, in that situation. But what I can do is consider that he knows more than me, um, and also just have faith that he knows what's best for me.

And there could be a number of reasons why, you know, what happened did happen. But ultimately, I don't like to think about the negatives necessarily as much as like, look where I am now. And You know, since that tragedy has occurred, like, I've had two miscarriages, my grandmother's died, um, we had to say goodbye to our 15 year old cat recently, you know, there, there are things in my life that are still hard, and they're so much easier.

Wow, thanks for sharing. No, thanks for sharing all that, and again, I'm sorry for your losses. No, I think it's important to, especially for anyone listening who doesn't believe in God, [01:00:00] and maybe this is the reason why, because of pain and tragedy in their life, it's important to know, like, we can intellectually explain how free will and sin and evil work, but to me that never felt very satisfying.

Yeah. It's like, okay, fine, you intellectually have this valid argument that kind of accounts for all these objections, whatever, that's fine. It's important to do, but you know, it's not always so convincing. So for me, I think it is really, really powerful when you see someone like yourself who does suffer.

And does find some like deeper greater meaning in it and sees that God can somehow bring good out of it. That's one point. There's just something different about people who suffer, who like you said have like grace in their life, who have God's life inside of them. And even like just incredibly heroic stories of people who've sacrificed themselves for the good of others to love other people.

Um, I think of the Navy SEAL, Mike Montsour. He um, you know, he was a devout Catholic. He threw himself on a grenade in Iraq to save his Navy SEAL brothers. And, you know, you can say it's like, Oh, that's his [01:01:00] training as a SEAL, as a special operator. That was part of it. But he just, he did have this like selflessness about him.

And so I think, like you said, it's suffering. Doesn't disappear from your life once you choose to follow God and have a relationship with him But you like you said you become better and stronger and more virtuous and better able to navigate and even like you said see that This isn't the end if it was the end life would be very depressing and I would personally see no reason to live like to You know, I think that is It kind of makes sense if, if this was it.

And so, yeah, but, but I think overall, the thing that is the most mind boggling for me when I have wrestled with this whole problem of pain and evil in my life is, you know, I can never say that we have a God who doesn't know what it's like to suffer, like, like you said, in those churches in Italy, it's like the crucifix is always there.

Like, it's just mind boggling that a God who, you know, is all powerful, all good, all knowing could. Come to earth, take on human flesh, become human, and go through all of that. Worse than, you know, any of us could imagine. There's something in that that just, like, it stops you in your [01:02:00] tracks, and I think that's the greatest argument, you know, or the greatest, um, maybe evidence that there's something about, like, human suffering and human pain that, like, God wants to work through.

And, uh, it's not, it's not so clear. I can't explain it. But, um, But it is, uh, it's evident that, yeah, this isn't the end and that he, you know, God is moved by human suffering. It seems, um, it's kind of similar to, I can't remember the name of it, but there's this, the Japanese pottery where you take, um, gold and you fuse the two pieces together.

So then they become stronger than before they were broken and they become almost more beautiful too, because now instead of just pottery, there's, it's lined with gold and. I think that's a really good analogy for life. And yeah, for any of those who need inspiration, even if, you know, you aren't religious, I suggest reading about the saints.

I may be a little biased, but I think St. Clair's. It's just really inspirational. And there's so many of them who have [01:03:00] gone through turmoil or tragedy or even just, you know, were ridiculed for their beliefs, for being outspoken or for just, you know, what they thought was right. And a lot of them end up dying because of it, you know, and a lot of them end up getting killed because of it, I should say.

So I mean, that's pretty inspirational. No, I agree. And I think, yeah, like, kind of like you experienced too, sometimes, especially if you come from a broken family, the idea of like God as a father is like, can turn you off a ton. It's like, my goodness, like, you know, if you had a bad relationship with your dad or he mistreated you, it's like, why would I want any sort of father in my life?

And so like you experienced with, um, with Mary, the saints from what I've seen are these, and by definition, just for everyone who doesn't know this, um, saints are people who, um, um, live lives of heroic virtue, who have, you know, just were incredibly virtuous people. And so, you know, the typical people you think of are, you know, Mother Teresa.

You think of Pope John Paul II. You think of, you [01:04:00] know, any number of people that are kind of these well known quote unquote saints. And so, yeah, looking at them though, they best reflect God on earth. And so like you're saying, Bri, if you, you know, are maybe hesitant to go to God, just look at their lives, just see, see the way they lived and see if that's something that's compelling and maybe better than the life that you're living now.

And, and for me, that's been, it's been so inspirational and really challenging too. It's kind of, it's almost like we were saying before with your friends, if you surround yourself with like saints, it's like, my goodness, like I have a lot to work on and I want a lot, a lot to go through. So anyway, there's so much there.

And, um, and the one final thing I was just going to mention about like pain and suffering Cause I've really struggled with this. Like, I, I've really gone through seasons of my life where it's like, God, when my family was falling apart, when my parents were getting divorced, when, you know, all these bad things were happening, like, where were you?

Because it honestly seemed like he was just, like, absent. It seemed like he had abandoned us. It seemed like he was just, like, sitting on the sidelines, uh, watching, you know, us kind of get beat up. And so it took a lot of time. A lot of prayer, a lot of, um, you know, listening. walking with [01:05:00] mentors spiritual direction for me and To kind of see that he wasn't just standing in the distance He was actually right there in the midst of it working in the background and what I have liked him to make himself more obvious I would yeah, I really would have that would have been nice.

I would I liked some more quick fixes That would be really nice too. But for some reason He works silently in the background, and he, he works especially through other people, and, um, he plays the long game. The really long game sometimes. It's like, my goodness, like, a quick fix would be nice here or there.

So, there's something about that, though, that I think is worth, like, pondering. It's worth, um, wrestling with. So, no, it's so good. I, um, I wanted to just make this point and get your thoughts on it, too. Your story is just so beautiful and inspiring. And there really is this such clear theme of beauty in your story.

Obviously in the past, as you've shared, you've used your physical beauty in a way that you regret in a wrong way. But in Italy, you know, the beauty there sparked this longing in you for something greater. Like you wanted to experience that beauty again. You want to [01:06:00] experience those feelings like you said, and now, you know, you're using your beauty, you're using your story to inspire others and your eye for beauty, even to create this beautiful story.

Uh, and you know, rosaries, like you said, for other people. And so it's, it's really profound as I was thinking about you and your story. I'm like, it's really profound. This like theme of beauty, especially the whole fact that you were won by beauty, like beauty won you any thoughts on that? I think really like.

Conversion is where you find it. Uh, I was lucky enough to have some pretty beautiful women encourage me, you know, both literally physically in front of me and also, um, Mary as well, as well as St. Clair. But the gateway to God is just wherever it appears in front of you. And I have a pretty unique story, and I really like the way that you surmise that with like different elements of beauty.

But whatever it is that makes you truly feel better about yourself, [01:07:00] just go with it. Run with it. And that could be your gateway to God, your gateway to a better life, your gateway to feeling better about yourself. That's probably the first thing that you would hope your gate leads to. And I think that it is really fun how there's been this element of beauty, but it could be anything for anybody.

And like I said, even like St. Francis is like a gateway saint to Catholicism, but it doesn't even have to be full fledged Catholicism. Like take something in your life that you really appreciate or maybe even something that you're really good at. Or, you know, the combination of those two things, and run with it.

See what you can do. I'm amazed and just completely blown away by the success of my new rosary business. I mean, to think a person like me, who's not only Lutheran, recovering alcoholic, but also used to produce porn, and so many people want to [01:08:00] buy rosaries from me, like, what? It's amazing. Blessing isn't even the, a big enough word to describe what happened to me after I decided to make this switch.

And, uh, And ultimately, like, I think a lot of times what we tell people, or especially youth, is like, you want to do this to make God happy, or you're, you're trying to do it, like, it's for somebody else, you know, or like, this is the right thing to do, you're not supposed to make porn. Um, you're not supposed to steal or do other hoodlum type activities.

But instead of thinking about, you Doing what you're supposed to or what somebody tells you to just be selfish like do it for yourself You know find the beauty in your life so that it can outweigh the misery I think that anything that is beneficial to you can blossom into something that is beneficial for others, beneficial for even civilization, and wherever you can [01:09:00] find that in your life, go for it, run towards it, cling to it, do it.

So good. There's this thing I was reading about recently, it was actually in a book on like health and nutrition. And they're talking about this idea of like a helper's high, how when you just like help other people, if you donate your time, if you just help people who are in need, whatever that might look like.

I think the example they were giving it is like, uh, working at like a, a food kitchen where you're serving food to poor people. And um, yeah, they did, they've done studies on people who do that and they end up like living longer, like being happier, like having these better lives. Yeah. So it's fascinating.

So, so I think, you know, your point is, is, is a good one that, um, you know, if you can't find it in you to do it for other people, like do it for yourself. Cause truly like the kind of like your story, like my story, you know, we wanted to be happy. You wanted to experience that joy, that peace, that beauty that you experienced in Italy.

And I wanted to just not be so miserable and be happy. And, um, I think that that is like such a good thing. So yeah, what I would just like second is yeah. Anything that's good in your life, anything that's true, that's beautiful, like, you know, go [01:10:00] towards those things. And in the end, I think you'll end up, um, in a better spot in life and you'll be happier for it.

So, so, so good. I want to shift gears a little bit and I know we're running out of time here, but I'd love to just kind of give you these quick questions. Uh, one being, has there ever been, you know, maybe a temptation for you since your conversion to reject the body and sexuality because of the pain and the problems that it's brought into your life?

Um, to an extent, I think even during my career porn production. Like sex is completely skewed in my mind as to, you know, what it's supposed to be like, what we were talking about, making love, a relationship between a man and a woman, procreation, a beautiful union. Um, sex has never been like that for me. Uh, in college, it was all about, you know, filling the hole inside of me that made me hate myself.

and all throughout my 20s as well. And then I've really struggled sometimes, like, since I've converted [01:11:00] to keeping my thoughts pure and also what intimacy means to me necessarily. Like, because I did it for work for so long that, like, that kind of played out into my intimate life with my husband in a way where it was always like I was still on the job.

And since I quit and then also since converting, I've done a few things to help. Like we, we have a crucifix above our bed now. Um, you know, sometimes I'll pray and we're still trying to have a baby. Um, so it's become, it's easier with the help of God and the help of my, my true friends to be able to really connect with this man in a way that I haven't in many, many years.

And it's something that I didn't really think about until recently. And it's just, you know, another one of those things that I didn't even realize how this [01:12:00] affected this aspect of my life, but it really has. And I wish that somebody would have warned me. Again, thank you for just being so open and vulnerable.

Um, it makes sense. Again, I, I've heard that there's a lot of women, especially women in porn who in their personal life kind of become asexual. They kind of don't want anything to really do with sex. Um, which is kind of ironic cause you know, the, what's being acted out on screen is that, you know, often these women being like ultra sexual.

And, and so it's just very ironic that. That would then end up making them the opposite, asexual, in many ways. And so it is, it is so sad because there's supposed to be so much, like, goodness and beauty that comes from that part of life. And the, part of the reason I wanted to talk to you about this is because I think, especially in American culture, I think the Europeans aren't as susceptible to this, at least the southern, uh, countries.

There's like this real temptation to like reject the body and sexuality to see it as something like that's kind of bad and dirty. And it goes back to [01:13:00] this idea of Gnosticism years ago where they thought that anything spiritual was good and anything material like the body was bad. And so you kind of just put up with the body and then you and and just for all those listeners, I know you know this, but, um, you know, you kind of put up with the body and put up with sex because it's needed to kind of.

have babies and keep our species alive. Um, but there shouldn't be much pleasure derived from it and it shouldn't be this good and like beautiful thing. And, and so it's been, um, some, you know, denominations of Christianity have kind of latched onto that. I think it's gotten so much better over the years, but, um, certainly in American culture, there's this prudishness, there's this puritanism that is really toxic.

It's really bad. And the history of the sexual revolution itself is fascinating because the Hugh Hefner in particular, um, he grew up in a very prudish Christian family. And he rejected that prudishness, which he should have, by the way, but he went way too far in the opposite direction with kind of, quote, unquote, liberating the body and sexuality.

And so it's really just such an interesting thing. And I think an important conversation to have when it comes to, [01:14:00] yeah, kind of putting the body and sexuality in its proper place and seeing the beauty in it and seeing the glory in it and seeing that, um, yeah, it's not perfect. And I don't mean to like, make it sound like, you know, if you have the.

proper view of sexuality and you're kind of healed and your sex life is going to be amazing in your marriage and things are going to be awesome. Like, no, it's, it's messy. We're broken as humans. And so things are always never going to be a utopia. That's not what I'm saying. But I think that, uh, that the root of that has caused a lot of problems and like really truly the pervasiveness of pornography today comes directly from that.

Um, that kind of view on like the bonding sexuality. So yeah, I just wanted to dig into that with you. Any final thoughts before I move on? Um, yeah, I think that to view sex as scandalous and something that's wrong and bad and filthy can be just as detrimental as the flip side. Um, and yeah, I guess like you see it in Hugh Hefner, like you said.

And I think that it's one of those [01:15:00] things that really needs its proper place, and beauty is a big part of it. Beauty, love, acceptance, all those things go into a great relationship. I couldn't agree more. Have you been tempted to kind of hate yourself for your past? And if so, how have you dealt with that?

Certainly. Um, like I said, it's not just about porn production. It's like all of us, we have, you know, we all have pasts, we all have sins, we all have regrets. And I think really one of the best ways that I've dealt with this is, again, while talking to people who have been there, who also made poor decisions and then have rectified, remedied their lives.

You know, we're like, you can read, again, you can read about different saints that, and they're not all spectacular, you know, Mother Teresa. Like a lot of them [01:16:00] come from certain backgrounds and then have changed for the better. You know, a lot of people Mary Magdalene to me and she was a prostitute. And then, you know, she became one of Jesus's most trusted disciples.

Um, but also you can find those people in your life now. I can't stress the importance of, you know, um, talking to other people, especially in your own situations. AA was a huge resource for me. Um, And during that first year, it was really one of the best things that had ever happened to me. It was the greatest thing in my life.

And a lot of that is because, you know, I talked with people who were freely, openly discussing all the horrible things that they did when, you know, they were drinking. And now, okay, so not only was that like completely mind blowing, that you're just like, [01:17:00] Openly talking about how you got fired from your job or how you like you stole your daughter's lunch money like to buy booze you're just saying that like that is inspirational and and once you've told your Rock bottom story to a room full of complete strangers your life will never be the same And so things like that I think are really helpful and they're helpful to understand that you're not alone.

They're helpful to understand that other people have done these things and worse and it's helpful to see people who have done these things worse and now are better because they've stopped doing them. Yeah, I've definitely been tempted. And, you know, several times in my life, too, and I've, I've gone as far as to say that, yeah, there were many, many years that I think that I just completely hated myself, but I, I hated myself more when I was in amongst the detrimental behavior, when I was drinking, when I was doing porn.

Now that I'm out of it, I like the way that you said, it's [01:18:00] tempting to still hate myself, but I have a hard time hating myself these days. I don't know if that sounds like egotistical, but, um, It's a good thing. Yeah. Um, because I just, I mean, the people that I engage with, the people that are in my life, my work is so rewarding.

I have all these incredible people and I have all these incredible resources and all this great love and beauty and just abundance and it's hard to hate myself because everything's just really, really nice. I mean, you know, like there's still tragedy, like I said, but I have, this whole toolbox full of resources that I can go to when I'm, you know, in, when I'm in the dumps or like, even when like something like will trigger a bad emotion or a bad memory.

And, um, and then I can go to this toolbox and I have different people, different things that I can listen to, different things that I can read, different prayers that I can say. [01:19:00] Whereas before when I was an alcoholic or when I did porn. My toolbox was, like, things that are just gonna make me feel worse.

And they're not really helpful at all, you know, like alcohol or sleeping around any of those things. I hear you and yeah I think it's a temptation for all of us in one way or another like to have like that proper love of ourselves like where It's not like you said on one extreme Egotistical we're obsessed with ourselves, but the other end it's a really bad and unhealthy thing to hate yourself to think so lowly of yourself So I love that you're in that like in that good spot now and yeah I, um, I certainly have my own regrets about my past, but I think there's something about God's mercy too that just helps you be merciful to yourself because once you experience like that forgiveness, you can then start to forgive yourself, which I think is probably harder than, than even like asking God for his forgiveness.

So yeah, that's beautiful. You've already talked a lot about different things that have helped you to heal. You know, like you mentioned going to A, you mentioned, you know, just being surrounded with good friends, the saints, like things like that. Has there been [01:20:00] anything else that's been really helpful as of now, um, when it comes to just healing that brokenness, healing the wounds from your past?

I think that therapy is still helpful, but I think it's also a combination of therapy and then my relationship with God. Like therapy itself didn't fill up everything, didn't help with everything. I agree. And, you know, I still have those same issues. Like, all of us who are addicted to something, it's not alcohol that I have a problem with, it's myself.

And I used alcohol in order to, like we discussed, like, get out of this reality and make me feel better about myself. But really, and the problem isn't alcohol, the problem is me. And so giving up alcohol, that's like one, a really great first step. And then, you know, working on yourself, going to therapy.

That's another really great first step. But I really have to say that it's because of God that I have this [01:21:00] complete. And total feeling of healing. And there are times that that complete, total feeling has cracks in it. And I'm kind of like, I think you kind of touched on this, like, you're kind of thinking like, Is this really, you know, for real?

Or, you know, am I just kind of lying to myself again? But, I don't think it's a lie. I know that my life has changed for the better because of those things that we talked about, but especially God. I can't, I can't say enough about that decision and really fully coming into the church and learning about God and learning about, you know, the gifts of the Holy Spirit and learning about all the ways that just increasing your relationship with Him will benefit you.

And Really, just to make you happier, like, uh, a more satisfied person living a more fulfilling life. God's the answer. So good. Do you ever feel tempted to go [01:22:00] back into that life? And if so, what Uh, yeah, how have you handled that? I wouldn't say that I feel tempted to go back to, like, drinking or producing pornography, but I really struggle, if I'm honest, I struggle a lot with going back to that same mentality of I'm not good enough, I'm not, I'm not enough, like, I just want to die.

And it can just be, like, one thing that happens and then another thing happens, and it's not even like a major event has occurred, but just like, I'll hear a song that reminds me of something. And I'm in this complete shame spiral that usually ends with, I feel completely alone and I really hate my life.

I'm tempted quite often to do that. And another, another benefit, another thing that I keep in my toolbox that I kind of trick myself with is, [01:23:00] uh, that I then think, what is your demon saying right now? Now, this sounds maybe kind of weird, but for over 20 years, I've had, These issues of negativity that I believe originated in college.

They stem from the fact that I didn't have a father figure and I never finished college and I'm just not good enough. And I call him the demon. Now that I've converted to Catholicism, like referring to this demon that lives inside of me is isn't really funny anymore. It's like almost kind of, Like I want to call him something else because now it kind of scares me the idea of this actual demon living inside of me.

But for the sake of this podcast, let's just refer to him as the demon as we always did before. And the demon loves it when I start to feel isolated. When I start to feel alone, he loves it. When I start to get nervous. About, you know, speaking out about my story or hosting a prayer [01:24:00] space on social media.

I start to get nervous about these things, like, who am I to do this? I used to be in porn, like, I used to be the scum of the earth. Who am I to host this prayer, this, um, novena? Who am I to go on your podcast, you know? Who am I to do any of these things? And I know that's my demon saying, and he wants to do whatever he can to keep me isolated, to keep me feeling like I hate myself and to keep me from spreading this joy that I have inside of me.

And I still have to watch out for that because I'm really susceptible to feelings of, um, self loathing. And it doesn't take much on some days for him to, to get under my skin. But then, really, when that happens, some days I have to admit that I'm still not good at relying on prayer and God for first thing.

Um, but it is a learning process. And some days when that happens, [01:25:00] I can so easily just let this demon get under my skin and convince me that I'm not good enough, that I shouldn't even be alive. But then most days I'm able to see what's happening. I'm able to recognize the demon for what he is, that he's trying to bring me down.

And I think one of the reasons why this demon loves bringing me down and is always trying to bring me down is because I'm afraid of success. What will that mean if I'm successful? If I'm, you know, and I'm not talking about, like, a successful porn star, like, that's not real success. But, how about if I'm successful in, like, being a, uh, Christian inspiration?

Like, yowza. That's kind of scary, huh? Like, then you're going to have to continue to be this Christian inspiration. You're going to have to continue to be successful. And look at all these people who are going to look up to you now. And then that's when either the demon or the angel can win of like, don't worry about it.

My angel will tell me. My guardian angel. Bree, you're [01:26:00] gonna be great. Bree, you're going to be inspirational and you're doing this for God, for the people who possibly will um, be inspired by you. And you're also doing this because Just imagine how happy that demon of yours is going to be if you don't do this podcast and like how he thinks that he's going to have won.

And then I get really freaked out and I'm like, I am not going to let him win. And I, you know, pull on my boots and, uh, pick myself up by my bootstraps, whatever, and, and I get it done. And I go wholeheartedly in on it because, mainly because I don't want the demon to win. Uh, You're a fighter. So good. Thanks for, again, sharing so vulnerably.

You've been so open, and I know it's so helpful to everyone listening, and yeah, gosh. No, and I speak on behalf of the audience when I say, man, I hope you can see the goodness and the beauty in you and your story. It's, it's incredible. It really is. And so, yeah, yeah. I hope you can continually be [01:27:00] reminded about that, because we need to be reminded as humans more than we need to be taught, I think.

And I remember the story of John Paul II. So, you know, he's this Polish priest who becomes Pope. He goes back to Poland. Um, I, I don't know if he was Pope at that point or just a bishop, but I think he was Pope and he, you know, at this point, after the Nazis left, you know, Poland during World War II, the Soviets took over, the Russians took over.

And in many ways, they were worse than the Nazis, which is hard to believe because they were just, you know, kind of more insidious and they were doing things in the dark and trying to just control the Polish people and to manipulate them and get them to, you know, give up. especially faith and morals and everything like that.

And one of the ways that they did that was trying to redefine their identity as people, as humans, but especially as, as Polish culture, like they wanted to snuff out, you know, Polish culture and different formats, like whatever it was, literature, art, theater, things like that, from my understanding of it.

And so John Paul goes back to Poland and he says, You are not who they say you are. Like, let me [01:28:00] remind you of who you are. You are not who they say you are. Let me remind you of who you are. And I think there's like, it gives me the chills to think about that scene of him, like shouting that to them.

Because I think as humans, we all need to hear that. It's like, we're all told whether it's by like that, you know, like you said that. evil like wolf inside of us, that whole analogy of like you have two wolves inside you, the good and the bad fighting, and the one that will win is the one you feed. Um, we all have that going on at some level, some more intensely than others.

And, um, and I think it's so important that we are reminded, especially by the other people in our life, um, you know, that there is so much goodness, like we have this so much inherent value and worth. and dignity that cannot be erased even by the poor decisions that we make. And we need to just rediscover that, restore that, bring that back to life.

And, uh, and I, yeah, I hope you can continue to do that. Cause, cause I certainly see it and I know our listeners do too. Thank you, of course in closing out. I just love you to speak to your younger self I'm curious what advice you would offer to kind of two parts of your life one Maybe you're considering getting into the porn and only fans [01:29:00] world and I'm so I'm curious kind of what would you say to that young?

Woman now, maybe she's even listening right now Someone out there, uh, what would you say when she's like kind of considering that? That's one question. The second one would be what about once you were in that life and you felt like it was the only way for you to make a living? Like, what advice would you give to that younger self or a girl listening right now who's in that space?

To the first girl, I would say, I know this seems like a great opportunity and it seems like easy money and a lot of fun perks, but you're going to regret this. It's going to change you in ways that you've never even considered. And instead, I'm really hoping that you will just find the beauty within yourself.

You will find something for you that makes you feel important and makes you feel special. And it's not this keep looking, but it's not this. You were made for something more than this. You are made in the image of [01:30:00] God and you're beautiful. You were made in his light and he wants more for you than just this.

And I think to the woman who is where I was, who is now full on into this industry on OnlyFans and I think that maybe you feel trapped and I know that I did when, when I was where you are and you're not trapped. It feels that way and it feels like this is maybe all that you can do. And it feels like maybe this is a really great life, but think about your future, and think about how this is affecting you now.

You don't even realize all the things that are seeping into your subconscious, and you don't even realize how narcissistic you're being, how egotistical you're becoming. Like, just listen to the way that you talk to people. It's not [01:31:00] normal. It's Just, just think about, you know, your income and the way you think about money.

Yeah, it seems really awesome right now, but it's a totally skewed sense of reality. You're not even living in the real world anymore, and it's going to have detrimental effects on you. And I think that for your own best interest, you should stop. Hmm. And there's such a better life ahead of them, like you said, I think.

Yeah, there's so much peace. There's so much joy. There's so much freedom that you can experience outside of that. So thank you for saying all that. Um, I wanted to, yeah. How could people find you online if they want to follow you and how could they, um, get to your Etsy store too? Please tell us about your business.

Oh yeah. Um, so I'm mainly active on X, formerly known as Twitter. And, um, I also have an Instagram account. You can find me in both places just by searching miss B converted. And then my Etsy store, if you'd like to check that out, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm constantly selling out of things, so if there's nothing in stock now, [01:32:00] um, just check back.

Like I said, it's been amazing, just an amazing success. And the address for that is avemariaeveryday. etsy. com. And thank you to everybody who has, uh, supported that business a lot. Absolutely. It's meant so much to me. No, you're offering a lot of valuable things. And so, yeah, make, we'll, we'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes so you guys can make use of that and follow Bri on social.

Bri, it's been such a pleasure talking with you. Um, yeah, so grateful for you and your story. And I know it's going to inspire a lot of people for, for many years to come. And you've already, you're reaching thousands of people through this show alone. So I wanted to give you the final word. Somewhat a similar question, but different.

I'm curious, like, What advice or encouragement would you give to maybe the men and women listening who they don't really see a problem with pornography? That's that's one question And I think a lot of our world is there right now The second one is what you know advice or encouragement would you give to maybe someone who does see the problem with pornography?

But [01:33:00] they feel stuck. They they have these unwanted sexual behaviors in their life They want to be free of them, but they feel stuck. So I'll give you the last word. Thank you for that opportunity. So To those of you that don't really think that Pornography is a big deal. I used to be right there with you.

In fact, I would actually, I mean, obviously what I would, I would encourage pornography because that was what I did. Um, but also even prior to that, I used to think of porn as, you know, it's a place where you can go to explore your fantasies. And this way, like, if your fantasies are kind of taboo, like, you don't have to act them out in the real world and you can just live vicariously this way.

But that's not how our human psyche works. And, like, if you have something that's taboo, you know, maybe you should talk to somebody about it instead of feeding it and engaging in it and some people might even say that watching pornography altogether is pretty taboo and I think that, you know, you can choose the, the wolf who you want [01:34:00] to feed, who is inside of you, who makes good decisions and who will lead you to a better life, or you can feed the wolf who is detrimental and, and you really have to, you know, So what you're putting into your mind, um, is it good or is it detrimental?

And, um, I think also, like, for people who think that porn's really not that big a deal, one thing that most people don't know about, and I, I think, Really love to educate more people about this is the link between pornography and sex trafficking. And for those of you that don't know, sex trafficking is where you steal someone and make them into your sex life or sell them for to be somebody else's sex slave.

I'm not really sure. Um, I'm sure that most people know the definition of that, but I want to be distinctly clear that sex trafficking is a crime. when it's done without the other person's consent. And a lot of pornography is actually just that. It's done [01:35:00] without the other person's consent. Um, I didn't know this when I was doing pornography, certainly not in my industry, but on major site, on major porn sites, a great majority of the people in those videos are doing this.

Against their will. And just by visiting that porn site, you are contributing to this. But not only that, when you get a subscription, even, you know, to places like OnlyFans, have you completely done all of your research as to where that money goes, and who this guy is, and who this company is? Uh, because sex trafficking, is one of the leading problems in this world.

I would say, like, one of the most horrific, disgusting things that has become so very popular. I don't think that people are, are even aware of the amount of people living now as sex slaves. That there are more people living now as a sex slave [01:36:00] than there were slaves in all of Egypt, than there were all the slaves within, you know, prior to the Civil Rights Emancipation.

And you don't see it every day. Uh, you don't, it's not, it's very, very hidden, but watching porn, producing porn, even scanning like free porn sites, all of those things you're doing is to support people who, who are forced to be sex slaves. And like, how gross is that? You don't want to be a part of that. You don't want to support that.

And. Most of you probably haven't even considered that, but look into it, do your research and make sure that you know, you know, everything that you're talking about and make sure that you know that about all the, the hidden facets of this CD world, because it's not beneficial. It's not helpful. It destroys lives.

It destroys marriages, destroys families. And you could have something so much better. And if you yourself are struggling with pornography, with an addiction to [01:37:00] pornography, I'm really sorry for that. And, um, there's a couple of amazing resources out there. There's, um, a website called Covenant Eyes. It's where you can go and sign up to have someone be accountable for what you watch online.

Um, there's strive21. com, which is a resource specifically for men who are addicted to pornography. Uh, it's run by Matt Fradd, who, he does the, um, Pints with Aquinas show. He's really goofy and I like him. Um, and then there's, uh, Magdala Ministries, who is run by a woman who herself, she was addicted to pornography and has since completely turned her life around and offers ministry for women who are in that situation and support groups and um, chat rooms, that sort of thing.

So really, I'm sorry that you're going through this. I'm sorry for the part that I [01:38:00] played even indirectly. But I'm glad that you want help. I'm glad that you want to stop. That's like a really hard decision to make. And I hope that those resources will be great for you. And, um, I also encourage people like if you want to reach out to me, that's okay too.

I've had several people, even former clients of mine who have. converted just based on witnessing like the joy that I feel and just based solely on witnessing my transformation that they wanted that for themselves. And isn't that cool that like the woman that I met at the priest's office, she was that for me.

And now I could be that for someone else. Like, I think that's pretty cool. And, um, and so I'm, you know, in, I'm in no way qualified to be professional help, but I can help, I can listen. And also I can help steer you into the right path.

 If you want to know more about human trafficking and sex slavery like Bree mentioned, I totally recommend checking out the movie [01:39:00] Sound of Freedom. Some of you have probably already seen it, but you can stream it anywhere like Amazon Prime and it's definitely worth the four or five bucks. And if you want to take Bree Solstad's advice and learn more about the harms of pornography and how to overcome unwanted sexual behavior, I wanted to mention a few resources in addition to what she recommended.

The first is a book called Forged by Matt Fradd and Jason Everett. It's a 33 day challenge to help men specifically break free from porn and unwanted sexual behavior. The next one is called Fight the New Drug. It's an awesome organization that makes the research on the harms of pornography really easy to understand and it's totally secular, not religious at all.

I'd also humbly recommend listening to our podcast series called Healing Sexual Brokenness. In the series, we just interview a lot of experts and they give really practical tactics and resources that you can use to overcome unwanted sexual behavior, and it's so relevant for people like us from broken families because like I said in the interview, one expert found that almost 90 percent of people with a sexual addiction come from a broken family, and so it's super helpful for people like us.

And if you want to listen to that, there's two ways to do so. On your [01:40:00] podcast app, just make sure to select a podcast. Our show restored helping children of divorce, and you can search healing, sexual brokenness, and you'll see all of those episodes, or you can just click on the link in the show notes, which will bring you to restored ministry.

com slash sexual brokenness, where you'll see all the episodes and you can select the one that you want to listen to. And finally, because the topic of suicide came up, if you or someone you know is thinking about committing suicide, just call or text the number nine, eight, It's just three numbers, 9 8 8.

Uh, again, call or text 9 8 8 or go to their website, 9 8 8 Lifeline. com. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, feel free to take 30 seconds now and send it over to them. If someone would have done that to me as someone who comes from a broken family, I would have been super, super grateful for that friend.

In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, [01:41:00] you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#120: Freedom You Never Tasted But Always Wanted | Jake Khym, MA

Pending! Stay tuned.

Two years into marriage, Jake found himself enslaved to a sexual addiction. He longed for freedom but felt very stuck. As a result, he lived a double life, hiding his unwanted behavior from his wife.  

But one random day, it all came to light. At that moment, he thought his marriage was over. In this episode, he shares what happened next, plus:

• What kept his marriage from falling apart?

• How a wound of abandonment from his family drove his addiction

• 6 tips to break free from sexual compulsion or addiction

Go to Jake’s Website & Resources

Listen to our series, Healing Sexual Brokenness

Go to Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Two years into marriage, Jake found himself enslaved to a sexual addiction. He wanted to break free, but he felt so stuck. And as a result, he just continued to live a double life, hiding his unwanted behavior from his wife. But that all changed one day when it kind of randomly came to life. And at that moment, he thought his marriage was over.

And so in this episode, he shares about what happened next and much more. We talk about how shame. truly crushed him, but it didn't destroy him. He answers the question, like, what kept your marriage from falling apart? We also discuss how pride is often at the root of lust or sexual compulsions. He touched on how a wound of abandonment from his family was at the root of a lot of his behavior, and he shares six tips to break free from sexual compulsion.

Uh, or addiction. So if you or someone, you know, struggles with a sexual compulsion or addiction, especially within marriage, this episode is for you. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 100. 20. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback. One listener said this, finally, a podcast that helps me understand why my parents divorce when I was five affected me so much.

Joey's guests are articulate and every episode helps me heal. I normally avoid religious content, but this show is so focused on felt experience that it doesn't come across religious at all. Major props for that. Thank you. And I just want to say, you're so welcome. Like we do it for you. Like I know it might sound kind of cheesy, but we do it for you.

We're so happy that the show has been helpful and even healing. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot. In a gym, Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But what makes Dakota different than the insane amount of fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I would say three things. One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped duties, but he's also a good virtuous man. He's not just caught up in his looks. Another thing I'd say is he, he studied to become a priest for a little while.

And from that experience in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustine Institute, he developed this belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting all the rest, like your body. We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free to love.

And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help you get a six pack or get bigger arms or whatever. He really wants to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated. And so if you would desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and even your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this. Dakota Lane changed my life, and the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have achieved, just go to DakotaLaneFitness. com or click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Jake Kim. Jake is a Catholic leader with over 20 years of experience in various ministry settings.

He has a master's degree in counseling psychology and a bachelor of arts in theology with a concentration in catechetics. Jake has worked in adult faith formation, a seminary and in priestly formation, a diocesan evangelization, catechesis, retreat ministry, and had a private counseling practice for over 15 years.

Currently Jake offers Human and pastoral formation for Catholic leaders is a consultant to various churches and ministries across North America. He offers an annual men's retreat in British Columbia, Canada, and accompanies male leaders on their journey of faith. And he co hosts two podcasts, uh, restore the glory is one of them.

And the other one is way of the heart. Plus in this episode, he shares about a new podcast that he and his wife are going to be launching. And with two children at university, Jake currently lives in Abbotsford. Uh, BC, British Columbia up in Canada with his wife, Heather, and one of their three. Now, in this episode, we do talk about God and faith.

If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out or skip the God parts, you're still going to benefit so much from this episode.

A little bit of a trigger warning before we jump in. This obviously is a mature topic talking about sexual compulsions and addictions. And so we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around children. But with that, here's my conversation with Jake. Jake, so good to have you on the show.

I'm honored that you joined us. Thanks so much for having me, Joey. It's great to be with you. I want to get into your story. And if, if you would, I'd love to start with a little bit of background and then take us to that day when you and your wife, Heather, Heather, really difficult conversation about your struggle.

Well, the, the back story is that I, I walked into marriage under a lot of deception. I had convinced Heather that previous issues in my life weren't there anymore and she was convinced and settled and she had entered into marriage, you know, with a lot of bliss and isn't this great and, you know, and. All that you would hope and expect, but what you didn't realize is that I was hiding a lot.

Um, there was a complete double life that was going on for me and I think to make it even worse, uh, at least it feels worse to me is that I, when all of this was happening, I was working at a church and so I was, you know. leading people into the Catholic faith through RCIA. So the duplicity stung particularly because my double life was extra heightened because I was proclaiming something about not living a double life to people.

So I'm working at a parish and, and all this is going on behind the scenes. And it's not like I'm loving it or embracing it all and going, Oh, who cares? I never was. Content with this being the reality, but felt utterly defeated and honestly didn't have much hope. Confession was my close friend and that's kind of the best that I was doing.

So the day where everything, where everything hit the fan, I was in, uh, we were getting ready or we were up in our bedroom and we were just chatting about various things in life. And. It's, it's really ironic because in hindsight, I realized what happened is that I was actually sharing a story, which was very boastful.

It was a story almost patting myself on the back about how wonderful of a helper I was to people. And so I was sharing with Heather about this story, uh, about this guy who came to me for counsel about going to confession for, Sins of impurity and so I was sharing with Heather. Oh, I know and I counseled him so well And I said, oh you got to go see I said to him you got to go see father So and so he's really good at these things but father so and so, you know, he's not so good and boy look at this great counsel I gave and was very full of myself and Heather for some reason it hit her and She said Jake, how would you know which priest would be better at that?

You And that question felt like everything went into slow motion, and I had possibly, you know, the most important decision of my life right in that moment. Because there were other times where Heather had quote unquote caught me or confronted me, and I'd lied my way out of it. But for some reason, this particular day, she asked that question, and I made the decision to cross a threshold that was terrifying to me, and to start being honest with her.

And so, I think my pause, and probably the look on my face, began to communicate to her, Oh, no, we have a lot more that's going on here. And so, I think if I'm, if I recall correctly, it was probably over the course of Two days that I came completely clean about everything that was going on in our marriage and Honestly, it was it was horrible just to be blunt There was there was not a lot of consolation in it the consolation did come for me quicker than for heather for obvious reasons because the burden of a secret and an addiction is Excruciating.

And so when you no longer live under the burden, what often happens is the addict starts to feel a bit of relief. And that can be massively confusing and hurtful to the person you've hurt your spouse or somebody else, because they're watching you almost feel relief and they've just been thrown into, you know, a hornet's nest of pain.

And so that came a bit later, but the first few days were, they were terrible. Because I'm, I'm honestly thinking my marriage is over. That's genuinely what I thought. We had my oldest daughter at the time and I, it was a very real serious consider so much so that I went to work probably, you know, I think I took the first day or two off and said I was sick or whatever, and I went back to work and I.

I had a meeting with my boss, who I was very close with, and I said, I need to talk to you and I need your help. And I said, I need to learn about annulments because I think my marriage is over. And he just obviously was floored and was like, what are you talking about? So it launched into this whole conversation with him.

So that's how the day, the first kind of day went. Um, there's all kinds of nuances I could say, but that's the rough sketch. Wow. No, thank you for sharing so vulnerably and knowing you a bit, how long you've come from that day. I just want to say a little bit of a pause in the conversation. Like I admire you so much.

It's incredible. The transformation in your life. And we're going to get to that. I want to give everyone some hope. Cause I know we're in like a heavy spot right now, but man, obviously I know you'd say it's a lot of God's grace, but you just, you have to be a fighter to be able to come, come back from something like that, which I'm excited to get into one place.

I want to go to is leading up to that. You alluded to the fact that. You know, all of this was unwanted. This is unwanted sexual behavior. What did it feel like in the midst of it all? I think so often it might be easy to like skip over that, how grueling and difficult it is. But I think to people who are in the midst of that right now, it's actually really helpful to talk about that.

So what did it feel like in the midst of it? And then, you After you opened up to Heather, how did you not let the shame crush you? I think any person that has any level of addiction and some addictions are worse than others, you know, like an addiction to cookies doesn't seem to bother as many people as an addiction to pornography.

Right? So it's like, okay, so But when you kind of increase the magnitude of what you're addicted to, alcohol, any kind of pleasure, and then when you bring in sex and all of those kinds of things, I think the reason that the sexual one has greater implication, greater pain, greater sting to yourself and other people is because it taps it into deep, deep dynamics in the human person, which is we're inherently relational.

And especially when you're in a marriage and an addiction of that kind in a marriage is like a direct. Like heresy of sorts. It's like a direct countersign to the very thing you're supposedly living day to day. Alcohol maybe is a little bit less than that because it doesn't have necessarily as blatant a direct correlation, but it does.

I mean, like a person coming home drunk impacts their spouse. I'm not trying to diminish that at all. But, you know, food is a bit less than a bit kind of like for me, the sting of it gets less. And I'm sure other people who struggle in those other areas would argue the opposite. And I'm welcome them arguing that I think that's fair for them.

But when you're in the midst of it and you look at something and you feel the clutches of something around you that you honestly, sincerely believe there's no way out of, It is a horrible experience. I think it's the closest thing I've ever come to knowing what it's like to be in jail. Like, here's the reality.

I can't do anything to get out of here. I am imprisoned by this. Every effort I try, it's like trying to shake the bars of a prison cell open. Doesn't work. And you know, you, you go for a week or whatever, and you even have the slightest ounce of hope that maybe, maybe this one's different. I remember feeling like, Oh my gosh, it's been two weeks since I haven't fallen and feeling this sense of victory only to like the next day have fallen worse than maybe a six months ago.

And that repetitive cycle of defeat and shame and imprisonment is. It, it really can mess with you. And I think what eventually people probably do is they just associate because of that pain, it gets so bad, they just start to check out and they get really numb. And that's usually when the addiction gets worse is because there's this thing in psychology called a tolerance effect where what one beer would do now takes five, what.

One website does, now it takes a worse one, a more intense one. And so you're always looking for the next high and you get used to the current high. And so it increases your tolerance increases. And so the, usually the ugliness of what you do can get worse. And so that's the whole cycle is. It's brutal and it can create a lot of despair.

I know a lot of men and women who I've seen and encountered and they feel utterly defeated. They're like a shell of a person. It's like looking at someone in a concentration camp and they're like, I'm going to die in here. And I have no hope of getting out. It's terrible. Like, it's, ugh, anybody who knows it.

And that's one of the things where I have a lot of compassion on people who struggle in this area, because I know what it's like. I know the pain of these areas, and I don't wish it on anybody. Your second question about the shame, you know, it's funny, I'm not sure I didn't let it crush me, if I'm honest.

I think the shame probably did crush me. The shame even in the addiction was crushing me. The shame of telling Heather, like my stomach, I probably grew 15 ulcers in a four days and I don't, and I never knew about it. I mean the, it was, it was terrible. Like it was brutal. And I say that cause I'm not trying to candy coat this.

Like I, there's a no BS philosophy that I kind of abide by and I don't want anybody to have, you know, Oh, it's rainbows and, and flowers when you go through this thing, it's awful. Like it's, It's brutal, but it is incredibly worth it. So I think the shame actually did crush me. I, I think why it didn't destroy me is maybe how I would rephrase the question.

And honestly, I would say grace. And I would say there are things in my life that God did to me very, very early on. He set up in me, he established in me that were critical to my recovery. And I think that's for everybody. I trust that that's the case for everybody. Everybody has things that God. Has put in their soul and in their personality and in their temperament, et cetera, that is their pathway out.

They probably just don't realize it. And so here's an example of one of those for me is I'm a very competitive person. I've been competitive for since I was little, I had two older brothers and I hated to lose. And so what, what ended up happening is that very early dynamic that just felt like me and my personality.

With some of the right love and mentorship from other people, they tapped into that dynamic in me and it was like a lifeline of don't lose and it, it, it like brought fire, even a spark back into a pouring rain environment internally. And that really mattered. There was one man in particular. He's quite well known.

Christopher West was a dear friend of mine in this journey. And it was Christopher West at the time was just Christopher West. Nobody really knew who he was. He wasn't this big popular guy. He lit fires underneath me all the time. And, and he, I don't know if he could see it or it was just the Holy Spirit, but he could motivate me like, like an athlete in a locker room.

You know, you watch those YouTube things and, and people are like, I would run through a wall now because like he had that capacity and he lit things up in me that massively helped me. And created lifelines for me. I think another one that was a lifeline for me, like I first learned that all of this was wrong when I was 18, um, I went to college and I remember going into the church because honestly I was lonely and I went to university and the girl I was after didn't work out.

And now I'm like, oh crap, I'm all alone. What do I do? And it was this tug of, well, where am I going to go? Where are people going to be nice to me? I'm insecure. I'm alone. And I felt like, go to the church, they kind of have to be nice to me. So I was like, okay, so I, I go to the church and I meet some nice people and they did, they welcomed me.

Then I start going to the talks and stuff like that. And the priest was brilliant. He just started saying the truth. And one of the things he said is masturbation, pornography, sexual addiction is real and it is a mortal sin. And here's what a mortal sin is. And that scared me because he said, hell is real and you don't want to go there.

And if you don't want to go there, you need to be in the state of grace. And so I had a very quick, Oh, Oh no, Oh, this is bad. And, and for some reason, the concept of eternity haunted me like forever, like forever, forever, like jail forever. And it terrified me. And so that in turn motivated me. And he said, there's a very simple way to be in the state of grace, go to confession.

And I was like, Okay. And so at some level, I was like, I don't care. Uh, I kind of had this internal disposition of if you don't let me go to confession, father, somehow that's on you. Cause I tried and God have mercy for you, buddy. So I worked those priests as hard as you can work them, man. Like I went to confession.

A lot. A lot. Numerous times I went twice in one day. They had the Saturday morning one, and the Saturday afternoon one, and I'd hit both of them. Because I would fall that frequently. So, that was another massive motivation for me, was somebody just flat out saying, Hell is real, you don't want to go there, and there's a way out.

You need to be in the state of grace and there's a sacrament you can get, even if you're an addict, you can come to and all you need is a slightest bit of, I don't want this anymore. And the Lord takes that. He cleans it all. And I drank, I gorged on confession. That was huge for me. It's beautiful. Wow.

There's so many lessons and so many great points I'd love to comment on. One of the lessons I'm learning from you is just how essential it is to have people in your life who can love you through this, who see you as you are, not some mask, not some fake version of you, but just like Christopher West was for you.

He's been on this podcast, so people are somewhat aware of him. And, uh, man, that was just like a lifeline, like you said, something that kept you moving. And also, like, you know, I know it was such a big struggle for your wife, Heather. I'm curious, just let's stop here for a second. Like, what made you guys keep going?

Because there's a lot of couples who would just go through something like this and say, Oh, I'm done. This is, this is not what I signed up for sort of thing. What, what kept you going? Ah, this is where my gratitude for my wife is. I, I honestly struggle to express it because I, this isn't a normal expression of love.

Like my wife, Heather is, she's amazing. Like she is amazing. I don't know why. It doesn't make sense for her to stay with me. Like, if you're honest, she shouldn't have. On every natural, normal reason, I've lied through my teeth. I've destroyed her. I've been unfaithful to her. Like, what? Why? Why should you? And, Her response here has been something that I've watched her live for the next, we're coming up on 24 years married, and this happened in year 2.

So year 2, so for 22 years, I've watched her live this wholeheartedly, and that basic point is, Either the gospel is what we say it is, or it isn't. Either Jesus Christ is who he says he is, and it's real, or what in the world are we all doing? And so everything that flows from that, the church's teaching, um, vows in a marriage, fidelity, all of that stuff, either it's real or it's not.

And what she lived was, I believe it's real. And I'm not going to believe another narrative about reality other than the one that Jesus Christ presents. And honestly, I can say, Jo, I do not think I would be here if it wasn't for her. There's no question. She was the catalyst to all of this for me. I actually have thought about it numerous times.

I'm scared. It's a scary thought for me to think about where I would be if it wasn't for her, I'd probably be divorced five times. I'd probably, I mean, I don't even know. It's, it's a scary thought. I definitely wouldn't be doing any of this kind of stuff. Heather was a, I mean, she was, a massive, massive gift and grace in my life.

Like just take this on day two. I think it was day two or day three after I've confessed everything. I'm sleeping in a different room and she's not yelling at me. She's not like mad. She's deeply hurt and she's not hiding it. And day two, day three, she says to me, I want you to know that I forgive you. And, and here's the crazy part.

I don't even remember that because I was so consumed with my inner world and my pain. That's part of the dynamic is you're obsessed with yourself. That's part of the issue. I was so consumed with that. I don't even remember her saying it and she, we've had to retell the story and I, and I vaguely have this memory of it because I remember internally, I'm like, That's impossible, right?

Like you look back on it and go, that's not possible. People don't do that. This isn't real, but it is, but it's the gospel, right? It feels impossible. I was the guy caught in adultery and Heather was the one who's saying, I forgive you, but don't sin anymore. And she offered both of those to me. She said to me, she doesn't remember saying this to me, but I have this vivid memory of her saying it.

Maybe it was the Holy spirit put these words in my heart, but I felt like it came directly from her and they were. I expect you to be a man, and nothing less. That's my expectation of you. I forgive you, but it's time for you to be a man. And, what I say when I share this story with people, I'm a movie guy, and like I said, I'm inspired, I like, Competition that that's the scene for me when the Rocky music turned on in the background and it lit a fire under me because I felt like I had a second chance at life and somebody said to me, not you're the biggest loser I've ever seen.

What the hell's wrong with you? I mean, all the things she could have said, she could have rubbed my face so deep and all of that. And what she said to me is the thing I wanted to be the whole time to begin with. I, that's what I deeply desired was to be a real authentic, strong and good man. And she basically said, put up or shut up time to get in the arena.

And that, that like exploded the fire within me. And now it wasn't easy. Uh, you know, every time you see the montage in a movie where it's like they go through eight months or a year or five years of something in 30 seconds, we all go, yeah. But the friggin five years is hard, and the music stops, and it sucks, and you don't want to do it anymore, and all of that.

But those moments were utter gifts to me, and all of them were from Heather, because she trusted and believed the gospel. So beautiful. And thanks again for sharing so vulnerably. I want to backtrack a little bit because you said something that was really profound about shame and about how, you know, I think there is the scale of intensity when it comes to various addictions or, you know, unwanted behavior.

Like, I agree with you on that. And I think part of the reason that makes the sexual struggles so shameful is that As a culture, I think we look down on them, at least, you know, within like the Christian culture. And so I think, yeah, I can drive you so deep within yourself that you think, man, if I ever were to show anyone this, they would quickly and easily disown me.

And they would, you know, say all the things that, you know, Run in the back of your head, you know that I'm a failure I'm never gonna get over this and so on and I've heard people say to that What when you're in the midst of that not just believing that what you're doing is wrong, but you are wrong You are bad kind of being the definition of shame this dual identity emerges where you to the outside world and to, you know, like you said, at work and church, like you were this one person and then interiorly you were just this broken, struggling person.

And then the gap between those two gets so big, it can feel like they can't be reconciled. Like, and that's such a hopeless, hopeless place to be. Like you, you articulate it so well. I'm curious if Yeah, backtracking a little bit when it came to, what, what held you back? Was it the shame that held you back from telling Heather in the first place?

Because I imagine there were times when you were going through this and you were like, man, I just, I want to open up. I need to open up. Like, what, what was it that held you back and held you, you? To that line of lying and deceiving, it took me getting into my own story and almost understanding myself before I could really appreciate the why.

And I'd say one of the biggest reasons of why I didn't share with Heather is because I was terrified of experiences that happened earlier in my life happening again. So as a very young boy, Abandoned very early by my mom, not her fault. She had mental illness and she had extreme postpartum depression.

She had to go into inpatient mental health care. Um, so she was gone for months, uh, when I was a brand new baby. And that was an incredibly deep wound of abandonment. And then from that, the enemy just thought, Hey, let's just beat the tar out of this guy with this wound of abandonment. So every girlfriend I had, they always broke up with me.

I never broke up with them. So there's always this repeating narrative of the thing you long for the most, feminine care will always leave you. And it, it was to the depth of my being. So the thought of sharing with somebody Something that in my mind guaranteed my biggest fear to happen. I'm like, I can't do that.

So I'm in this terrible, I call it a double bind. If I go left, I'm dead. But if I go right, I'm dead. I don't know what to do. So if I share with Heather, all this, she will abandon me. But if I don't share all of this with Heather, I'm living a complete and utter lie that once she finds out she'll abandon me.

So I'm just stuck. In both places, terribly, that was probably the biggest reason, but I didn't know that that was the biggest reason until after the fact. I think another reason, if I'm just honest, the, the wounds that those dynamics, the impact of those wounds in me made me very, very selfish and self reliant.

I basically, I call it a masturbatory mentality. And this is the language I've learned. People say, Oh, I've struggled with masturbation. I think the bigger issue is that we have a masturbatory mentality, outlook, way of life. Everything becomes masturbatory. It's all about me, what I can get and my pleasure.

And so I think that dynamic goes on. It's rampant. And it was rampant in my life. Selflessness Was a very small category for me It was all about me because I believed I had to make it about me For me to be okay because no one else would take care of me or be there Those are all the lies and vows and beliefs and so I mean it sounds it's a bit crude But I was quote unquote Masturbating all the time because everything was about my pleasure and everybody else's job was to make sure I was okay So that was another reason So, I would look at Heather and justify at times my behavior because she wasn't giving me what I wanted and I was convinced this is what I need and if everybody would just give me that.

You know, the lie becomes, if I could just have pornography in real life, I'd be fine. And I believed that lie deeply. And so in my relationship with Heather, you bring that into the marriage. That's one of the issues with pornography. And then you end up deeply wounding your spouse because you're expressing disappointment in them because they're not living the lie with you.

Just as a footnote, I think that's a very dangerous thing that happens for a lot of couples is their spouses that believe that's the remedy. Give them what they want. And then they begin to compromise their own dignity, and that just creates all kinds of more interesting and troublesome dynamics. So, selfishness is kind of what I'm saying here.

Massive selfishness and terrible fear of abandonment. And then I would say the last one was, I honestly didn't have the kind of relationship with God to where I sincerely trusted he would actually satisfy me. And so I'm living this life with God and going, yeah, God's good. And, you know, I say all the right stuff.

I'm passing all the multiple choice tests, but if I'm honest, Will God actually satisfy me to this depth? No, I don't think he goes there. I mean, you know, you look at all the stuff that we're formed in and all the false formation and prudishness that enters into our, our world and we call it holiness. We call it prudence, but it's actually manichaeism, which means body, bad spirit, good.

You know, we, we adopt some of these heresies without even realizing it. And then we shut out. The very grace of God in our lives. And so I believed God can't satisfy me. So you throw that combo together. That was gnarly. I was like, man, I'm not going there. No, it's so profound. And I love how you tied lust and pride together.

I don't think a lot of people make that connection, but I think it's so potent. I heard that St. Augustine once wrote that lust is the sin of the proud. And, and I think like you said so well, it's so true because at the core of lust of using another person for own pleasure. It's, you know, obviously an extreme amount of selfishness, which is pride.

And so I think one of the antidotes, which I know we're going to get to in a second here, is an incredible amount of humility of, and obviously valuing like the worth, the dignity, the value, you know, of another person, seeing their pain, seeing, you know, their desire to be loved and just understanding how Our behavior of salvageness just destroys them in so many ways.

And so I love how you guys were able to kind of go from that place into just a much healthier, more beautiful place. And so many things you had, I would love to comment on, but I know we don't have forever today. I could talk to you forever, but I'm curious if there was, um, if there was anything else that you would say that that sexual compulsion addiction Uh, was, was filling, like, if there are any other needs, cause you, you outlined it so well how it went back to the abandonment one, but I'm just curious if there's anything else you would say like this need or this thing was filling this need.

Yeah, I, I would say I'm a very, I'm like, you know, like when you talk about the five love languages and those kinds of things, physical touch is very high for me. So I'm a sensual person and I'm, Stereotypically male where I'm highly visual, I'm very sensual. And so what the pornography was doing was just almost like meeting me to a depth that I felt.

And so in some ways it was this perfect assault on me because it's deeply visual, highly erotic. All of these things that I kind of at baseline feel, and I think I'm, I'm, I don't think everybody's that way, or if they are, I don't know that. And so pornography had like this perfect concoction for me and passion, like I'm a passionate guy.

I'm a pretty intense guy when I play a sport like I, I go all in, I'm an all in kind of person. And so what you see. One of the twists of pornography is that it meets you in that space. And the lie that it suggests is you won't find this elsewhere. In other words, when you hear and look at the passion of Jesus Christ, you don't equate that to a satisfaction of Eros.

Most people don't link those. They go, that's the opposite of Eros. And I think one of the dilemmas that we have is that we, we assume making a gift of ourself, which is. The passion of Christ, the cross doesn't satisfy. This to me is one of the crux issues with Christianity and the gospel and Jesus's message is we, we don't believe in when we say, when you lose your life, you'll find it.

I think that's a, that's a line in the sand that few people actually cross over to believe. And so we think we actually have to take care of ourselves. And so they go, where am I going to go? I want it to be really good, highly intent, blah, blah, blah. And it's, this is the brutal thing of pornography. It's affordable.

They call it the three A's. It's affordable, meaning I don't have to pay much to get it. It's anonymous. No one's going to watch me. And it's easily accessible. Affordable, anonymous, and accessible. That is a real tough one. And this is one of the issues with the advent of modern technology is, you know, back in the 70s or 80s, early 90s, to partake of pornography, More guts than it does now.

And so you had to, you had to have a bigger desire. So it had a threshold that a lot of people just wouldn't push through. And in some ways it prevented a lot of issues, affordable, accessible, anonymous, man, that is rampant right now. So, um, anyway, I feel like I'm digressing. No, no, it's so good. And so relevant to what we're talking about.

Cause you're right. It's so, it comes at you so aggressively. And I think not only men, but also women now are struggling in so many different ways when it comes to just lacking self mastery in the realm of sexuality. But also, I think, like you said so well earlier on, there's something about our sexuality that just hits on so many components of the human person.

And so, We're all, you know, I think so many people have been through trauma. They carry broken with brokenness with them through life, especially our audience who's coming from, you know, really broken dysfunctional families that the kind of sexual release is just so attractive because it feels in the moment that it kind of satisfies those needs to satisfy that brokenness for a moment.

At least you feel some level of relief and maybe even wholeness. I don't know if I'd use that word exactly, but when you have, uh, I'm trying to be Veiled with my language when you have a full experience of a sexual act what literally goes on Neurologically for you is an is a very intense bonding cycle And so what it's created to do is one of the most powerful things on the face of the planet It's to take two people and to have this repeated experience where they keep bonding and keep bonding and keep bonding and get closer And deeper and closer and closer and closer because the Lord's saying I want to show you what I want you Us to look like, meaning God and the person.

I want to give you a sign of what that looks like and how deeply bonded I want to be with you. Well, it's like he, you know, this is the joke. Like when God's pouring the chemicals together to make reality that he like slipped and he like poured too long in this domain and we're like, Whoa, why'd you put so much of that one in this one?

And we go like, back off a bit. And so we feel like we got to counteract God's design, but that's just not true. Like he got it right the first time. And what he's desiring is that level of intense bonding intimacy with us. Like this is the four and all these domains is exactly what heaven Is it's the fulfillment of all the desires that we have they're put back into right order and I think that's where people just go no way heaven's full of angels and organ music and ice cream like that's we put all these random categories together and go such a trite definition of it and so C.

S. Lewis has this concept of, there's no desire that God can't satisfy. I think what people struggle with is they go, well, I have desires. He won't satisfy my way. Okay. Yes, that is the issue, but a desire that's unsatisfiable. No. That's hard to believe. Oh, just pick up your cross. That's going to make me happy.

Baloney. I'd rather go do this other thing. And this is where the cross is not easy. This is where GK Chesterton says things like Christianity to be, has not been tried and found wanting. It's been found difficult and left untried. Like it is not for the faint of heart, this call to be a disciple of Jesus.

But what you see over and over and over and over with the people who took it serious, we call those people saints. They were deeply satisfied. I would call them the happiest people that have ever lived. Now you might look at them at face value and go, they look sad. Look at the artwork that shows them.

And I'm going, uh, you might not realize all the depth that's going on. Right? Don't judge a book by its cover. I had somebody recently say, Jake, why don't you smile bigger? And I was like, I thought I was smiling. Like, I'm actually happy when I'm making this face, you know? So, there's a bit of that maybe going on.

But, um, Wow. No, no. Profound and so good. And I think this gets to the root of so many struggles in our relationship with God, where I think father, uh, Michael Galey said that the, I think the core problem is that we don't actually trust God because we don't believe he's good. And we think that, He's holding out on us.

We think that he's putting us through these ridiculous rules and regulations and just trying to stifle us so that we don't experience the joy and the pleasure that we could experience on our own. And so like you articulated so well, and I've experienced this in my life too. We just think, well, I really don't believe that God's going to take care of me, come through for me, satisfy me.

So I'm just going to take care of it myself. And that, you know, can look like any number of. unhealthy behavior, but I think that's where the world is right now. And it's so sad and you're right. Like when you go through that, the cross and you go through just living life as it was meant to be lived, even though it's not pain free, it's not easy.

There's like a deeper level of satisfaction of meaning of, of joy that you receive that it's hard to articulate unless you go through it. Yes. I am eternally grateful to John Paul the second. And Christopher West, because the whole anthropology of the theology of the body, particularly how do I manage desire, was them.

Like I, all of that has been formation from them being able to situate the deepest longings of my heart within a context where does, where satisfaction is real and it's also holy. So for example, the concept of freedom. For me, freedom meant Do what I want, when I want, how I want it, so I get the biggest bang for my buck, the biggest return.

And then another concept of freedom was put in, was offered to me, which was, freedom is not living in jail. It's not, because you can do all the things you want within a jail, but you're still in a jail. You're still locked up, you're not actually free, you don't have the capacity to have your yes be yes and your no be no.

Something else is pulling you around like a puppet. But you have to be brutally honest to admit, man, I can't actually do and say what I want here. I'm in bondage. So getting the permission to do whatever I want is different than the capacity. Do I even have the capacity to love somebody? Do we even have the capacity to say no?

So that spin for me was huge. And then to say, what if you can be free and be satisfied? And I was like, that's impossible, right? And it's just so subtle that these narratives get in there. And basically what they taught me was, now you're looking Jesus Christ right in his face and he's saying to you, I can't.

Will you follow me because I promise you I can, and that is a shattering, rattling reality. An author put it this way that I love. When you encounter Jesus as he truly is, you will either turn away from him because you can't handle what he's offering, or you will shamelessly worship him. And that I love that articulation because it captures my experience and I think the honest experience people have when they encounter Jesus as he actually is with all the, all the garbage drapery that we put around him.

Like when you peel all that stuff away and you look Jesus Christ square in the eyes, his offer is life. And he even says it. To the full life to the full is what I'm offering to you. Wow. Wow. Wow. And I love the point you made about freedom. Cause I think people feel that strongly today. Like they want freedom, right?

They don't want to be tied down. They don't want to be, so to speak. They don't want, you know, shackles, but like you said, so often we're slaves to certain behaviors or whatever attachments that we have in our life that we don't even realize. We just think that, no, I choose this thing. But if we ever tried to stop it, it would be like, no, I couldn't really do it.

And I love that definition you gave. And I, the way I've kind of thought about it too, in the past is. The greatest measure of freedom, in my opinion, is, like you said, your capacity to love. The greater your capacity to love, the more free you are. The less your capacity to love, the less free you are. And I think a lot of even moral issues can be looked at through that lens.

And so that, that shifted things for me, especially when I was younger and struggling with, you know, lust and pornography and masturbation, all that stuff. It was, you know, realizing that it was holding me down. And, and there's, it's almost like you can't. You know, I know Christopher Walsh uses the analogy of like eating junk food from a dumpster.

You know, it's like, you can't really imagine what like, you know, an amazing ribeye would taste like when you're in the midst of that. But once you taste it, you're like, my goodness. Like, this is like a world of a difference that I never even knew because I never experienced it. But once you do, you're like, wow, there's something else on the other side.

And I think that's what I want people to hear. From your whole story, like there's something better on the other side that maybe you can imagine or experience or, um, yeah, there's something burning within me that I want to say to people because I, and I almost want to remind my former self of this. So you, you take me back 30 years and, um, Uh, you're looking at a teenage version of me walking up to a beautiful woman and having the integrity of heart to simply love her and not grasp after her felt impossible.

But I can do that now. And the satisfaction that comes from walking up to a beautiful woman and not having this thing within me, that's trying to fantasize or what if, or if I played my cards right, you know, all that stuff that's twisted and distorted within you, and to be able to say it in freedom and to make that a gift to them and they feel and see that you have no ulterior motive.

Watch what that does. It is amazing. I have, what I love about that is that when you start to taste and see what love is like, and to be a lover in all of the right contexts and ways as a, as a husband, as a father, as a brother. To be able to, with utter congruence to walk up to somebody and bless them and not need anything from them.

The life that goes into that person is like stuff you've never seen before. And what that takes is an integrity of heart. Like that, that's not easily won. You don't cheaply go up there. This is one of the things I love about the feminine soul. Their BS meter is so sensitive. It is such a gift, and it's terrifying all at the same time.

And so they can smell your macho BS from so far away. And so what that demands is an utterly clear minded, solid man. And when you can offer that to them, the life that comes into them is like nothing you've ever seen on any false version of pornography. And it's live. And you get to do that all the time.

Like, I'm not recommending going up to everybody and go, Hey, you're beautiful. Hey, you're beautiful. Cause now that starts to get distorted and probably be about you. But imagine your heart is so conformed unto Christ that you are literally moved by what moves his heart. And so you go up to people and you want to love them and you become a lover.

And the right context, an untwisted version of being a lover of people. It is the most satisfying thing in the world, dude. It is unbelievably wonderful for men to, to love men and women. Well, like it's the best, it really is the best. And then to have that capacity to love in a unique and particular relationship where those words.

Can become flesh and you mean it into your bones and to make that gift of someone to someone and for them to receive that gift from you and to have it all be true and good and beautiful and passionate. There's nothing like that. And so, we, we, we, we settle, C. S. Lewis says it this way, we settle for playing in dirty mud puddles when we're made for the holiday at the sea.

And what I'm trying to emphasize is, I have gone on the holidays, I've tasted the holidays that C. S. Lewis references. They're amazing. Like they are worth it. They're incredibly satisfying and they're not cheap. They require a total and complete. Yes. Of the person who wants to realize that reality, but that's what makes them matter.

Like. The, the stuff that we get these days, because it's cheap, like cheap love, cheap respect, cheap praise, it's so shallow. And then you wonder why people are depressed and have no meaning. It's because everything's lost its value. But when you raise a standard. And you hold that standard. The thing has value again.

Like this is one of the things that like with athletics, I'm being an, I like athletics when they start changing all the rules and all the old people who played the sport are like, you can't do this. Like, come on, like, you don't get to change the thing. Cause that compromises the whole point of it all.

You show up and you either won or you lost. You're either better than them or you're not. And there's no other way to prove it other than getting on the mat and showing It is instant. reality right in front of you. And if you want to get better, it takes a lot of dedication and hard work. It just, it is what it is.

You're either going to embrace it or not. There's no games. I love that. It's not cheap. So good. So good. And I think we need to hear about that more. So I'm so glad you, we spent so much time here because I think people, when they're stuck in an addiction or compulsion, They, yeah, lack the motivation and they don't think what's waiting on the other side is worth it.

It's like, no, I'm more comfortable here. And I remember Jay Stringer in his book, he has like this awesome quote about how you have this kind of maddening fight with freedom in the midst of an addiction or compulsion. And I think this gets to the heart of it, because we actually don't think that's what's waiting on the other side is better.

We think what we're in the midst of is so much better. And so feel free to comment on that. But I wanted to shift gears a little bit in the time we have left to kind of fill the gap. We've kind of contrasted what your life was like then to what it's like now, which is just beautiful. Feel free to add anything there.

But I'm curious what happened in between, if there's any particular steps or principles or lessons that you would like to pass on to everyone listening, especially people who maybe find themselves where you were years ago. Yeah, there's numerous things that were very important, you know, over the years I've tried to categorize them and what's difficult about just labeling with.

You know, Oh, here's the five easy steps to pornography recovery. Like it's never that, that that's cheap. And so I don't mean to cheapen it. Like these are very real and there's a lot of depth to them, but I mentioned one before and that would be the sacraments in particular confession. Confession changes lives.

It's a real encounter with supernatural capacity. In particular, in the areas of healing and forgiveness and the grace to be able to not sin again. You, you can't find that anywhere else. You might not be able to see it, but there are lots of things we can't see that are very, very real. So I would say sacraments are very high on the list and use them a lot, go a lot to them.

You know, confession, I'm not encouraging scrupulosity, but I'm saying if you're in an addiction. Go to confession every week go to confession every three days like what I love about my region is I can find confession like Anywhere the next day, right? So just yesterday I was like it was the I'm gonna timestamp this but We're recording this right after the Feast of St.

Joseph. And so Big feast day for me. And I was like, you know what? I just want to go to confession and I could. So I'm really grateful for the priests out there who offer that because it's a huge thing. So sacraments, I would say another one that was very big for me that you mentioned as well, which is other people.

You cannot get through this alone. And there's different kind of types of people that you need. I needed a Christopher West who was like the trainer at the gym. Who's Got the right dose of, come on, you can do this, as well as helping me analyze my, you know, what I'm doing and not doing. But I also had a lot of people who were exceptionally kind.

The guy who I mentioned, who I shared my story with at work and the annulment thing. The first thing he said to me was, Jake, hold your head high. And, and I was like, what did you just hear what I just said? And he said he was fighting for me right in that moment. The brilliance of that man to begin battling shame on my behalf, like in his third statement, it was utterly brilliant.

Hold your head high. You are now fighting a good fight. Like. Oh, that phrase just rang in my ear. So I needed other people. I needed to go to counseling. I needed healing. And so I went to many versions of counseling and basically I've never stopped. I've been in counseling ever since that whole journey started with me.

I've never stopped because I have perpetual areas that I need to address. This area isn't there anymore, but that doesn't mean there aren't other areas that I need to address. So, I went into healing, lots of it, and I just said, I meant this is my path and I'm not getting off of it, because this is what it means to be a Christian.

This is the gospel message, perpetual healing. My prayer life I had to take very seriously. And I made things practical. I made a bet with a buddy, because money was precious when you're young and you're early married and you got new family, so I made a bet with a friend. If one of us misses, uh, we had, we committed to an hour, a holy hour, you have to pay the other guy a hundred bucks.

And that stung. And so it was like, I'm not missing. And you know what? Heather was like, you're not missing. Get your butt up and pray. Cause we don't have a hundred dollars to spare. And I was like, it's not in the budget. Yeah. It's not in the budget. You being lazy is not on the budget. So I needed that.

Another one was fasting. Fasting was very important to me. I had to strengthen my will muscle. That's Christopher West's brilliance. He said, Jake, you go to the gym for your body, but you're not going to the gym for your soul. And part of the going to the gym for your soul is fasting. And so I committed to a bread and water fast on every Friday.

And it was hard. I did not like it. And it wasn't brutal, like I'd go to Panera Bread and I'd get the nicest stinkin bread that I could find. Cause I was like, I don't know, and I, I even eventually got to the point where butter counted. So, I don't know if that was cheating. The point was, I was strengthening a muscle, which was my will muscle.

And I would say the last thing was just truth. I needed to fill, fill myself with a ton of truth. Not just truth like, oh, the church teaches, yes, that. But also, this is the truth about my identity. This is the truth about why I do what I do. This is the truth about God. And I had to fight for those truths to actually, like, find root within my soul.

For the soil to be turned over to be able to anything to have root. Because, like, my life at that point was like a hurricane and you're trying to plant a garden in a hurricane. Like, you gotta really protect some of those things. for them to actually grow and get strong enough. So that's kind of the rough categories that I would say.

No, it's super helpful. And I love that you highlighted the point, like as helpful as all those principles are and those tactics that healing is deeply personal, that it might look a little bit different in different people's life. But I think so many of those components, um, I know in my story were present when I've experienced the most amount of healing.

And so especially I would just double down on that whole vulnerability point of like having someone in your life who just knows everything about you, who you can just share everything about you and who they're just going to love you in spite of it all. Um, it's, it's beyond healing. It's beyond helpful.

It's something that can transform you. Yeah, there, maybe I can nuance that for a little bit. There, there are two types of people that I find helpful and both are needed. And that, and that was represented by Christopher and Tom. Tom was the guy who said, hold your head high. And so as I've seen that over the years and becoming somebody who's worked with people in these regards, I've found that both kinds of people are necessary.

So. The kind that I will love you no matter what. And I will love you in the midst of the sin and the ugliness, et cetera. And Christopher did that for me. He also was a wonderful version of accountability because he wasn't okay with excuses. And so I think a lot of the problem is that people have an accountability partner and what they give each other permission to do is to just get away with whatever.

And so I, I challenged a group of men I was working with one time. And this is one of the best stories I've ever heard. I challenged a group of men one time to actually do real accountability with each other. And so there was a group of men and they came in and one guy kept coming and saying is falling.

And another guy in the group said, I promised you, I promised you. I would help you. And if you come back next week and you say you've fallen again, I will take care of this problem for you. And the guy was like, what? So we're all like, Whoa, what does this mean? The guy comes back the following week. He says, I fell again.

And the guy who promised him said. I'll take care of it. So I'm like, what is going on? So now it's the next week and there is all kinds of issues between these two guys. Well, here's what the guy did. He knew that the way that this guy fell was through the internet and through buying things on TV, he went over to his house.

And he ripped the cable box off of his house and cut all the cable wires, ripped it off, like holding the head of Medusa in his hands and left it on his porch and drove away. So he had no access to the internet. He couldn't get any access to anything. I think that's illegal, what he did, but the commitment was so amazing.

They were the one guy who had his house. Assault was not happy because then he had to pay the company to come back out and fix it and blah, blah, blah. But I went, that's the kind of thing. I'm not promoting illegal behavior, but that's the kind of thing that the guy was serious. He was like, Either I'm, either I'm whole, I'm loving you or I'm not like, uh, so I love that story.

And so good. Maybe that guy's in jail for doing that for other people. No, so good. No, I think it hits on that whole thing. When we're trying to help someone, we need to go in with both truth and love. We can't just love them and, you know, say, well, You know, what you do doesn't matter. No, it does. We need to hit them with the truth and say, no, no, you're, you're called to more than this and you can beat this.

And yeah, I'm going to be standing right there through it with you, but I'm not going to let you fall prey to mediocrity and just like living this life. That's never going to end because that's just depressing. So, so much good stuff there. I want to, um, just get kind of fire. A few questions that you, when it comes to someone listening right now, Who is in that spot that you were in, maybe in their marriage or leading up to marriage in a dating relationship even.

I know those are two different things. So maybe let's just focus on marriage for the sake of this. So what would you say to that person? Like, where do they go first? And I'm curious, do you always advise sharing your struggle with the spouse? Yeah, good questions. I'll be brief. The first things I would say is you're not going to go anywhere if you're not honest.

And so step one is getting honest with the reality of the situation. Christopher did the same thing to me, and he said, you've got to be honest about do you actually want this? Because he said, you can actually want it, and that looks a particular way. Or you can want it. To want it, or you can like the idea of wanting it, that's not wanting freedom, and you just need to be honest about where you're at.

Do I want it? Do I want to want it? Or do I hope to one day want to want it? You know? You've got to situate yourself there. Cause there you're least honest. You have to be honest at first. Then I would say the next step is what do you believe will happen with regard to a journey of transformation? And you need to look for the lies there.

So for example, it's impossible. I said that. I said that all the time. Obviously I'm sitting here proving that wrong, but I believed it. So I believed a lie. So I have to look at what I believe about a process of change and actually examine it and, and, and examine that for lies. And usually you need to do that with someone else.

Amongst all the other stuff, I would say the last one is something I've learned from The Navy SEALs. And I think the reason I say that is because Navy SEALs are people who do extremely difficult things and you can learn a lot from them. There's a friend of mine who's a Navy SEAL. He's a retired Navy SEAL.

And I've talked to him about all these things. And he said, getting free of pornography addiction is an equivalent to going through hell week. So if you know anything about the Navy SEALs, he said, and he's been through hell week. He's been through hell week. So he has real life experience. And he said, I respect any man who has worked through an addiction, man or woman, but we're talking about men work through an addiction of pornography.

He said, you are like us when you've done this. That was huge motivation for me. But one of the things that they teach there is what's called micro goals. The principle is you will never make it through hell week. When you think about the entire week at the same time, You'll quit because it's overwhelming.

So what you have to do is draw your attention, which isn't easy, but it is possible. Draw your attention back until the next thing you're focusing on is reasonable and achievable. And that might be. All I have to focus on is the next 30 minutes. And if that's the sobriety journey that you're in is all my goal right now is the next 30 minutes.

And I'm working hard because it's not instantly happening. I'm working hard to hold my attention to being holy, being pure, and being free. For the next 30 minutes, I'm breaking down this lifelong journey into a goal. That's reasonable and achievable. It's micro goals. That's how they survive extremely difficult things like hell week.

And they train that and they practice that. And then they embody it. I think that's essential to recovery is micro goals. You have to break this whole thing down into realistic parts. And. That doesn't magically happen. That is intentional. Soon as you think about, I'm going to have to go seven years without ever struggling, you're done.

It's too big. You're done. It'll crush you. You got to think about the next 10 minutes, day, week, whatever is manageable to you. So good. And proof that that work is that works is, um, the lone survivor story of Marcus Luttrell, who's a Navy SEAL, who you guys might know this story. He was, um, essentially just left without a team in the mountains in Afghanistan.

And he actually using that exact tactic that Jake just taught, he actually crawled on his belly with like a broken femur. He, his nose was collapsed into his face. Sorry, this kind of graphic he had. bitten through his tongue. Um, he was on his belly, like running from likely hundreds of enemy fighters. He, he would take a stick and draw a line in the sand in front of him.

And he said, if I can just get past that line, I'm going to live. And he did that again. He did that for seven miles. seven miles. And so it works, it works. And so, so, so good. And I think one of the biggest lies I just want to touch on briefly when it comes to, um, breaking free from sexual compulsion addiction is that I'm going to beat it myself.

I'll figure out a way to be yourself. That's a complete lie. And I know you can, we can do a whole nother show on that. But, um, the, the final thing I just wanted to make sure we touched on was just your ministry. You have so much more to offer here. I mean, this, Episode is a proof of it. So please tell us about it.

What do you guys offer and how can people find you online? Yeah, I'd say that the simplest thing is to go to our website life restoration C A, C A is for Canada, we're in Canada. So Life Restoration Ministries is what we do and in that we do all kinds of various things. The biggest thing that we offer is we want people to encounter Jesus and we want people to experience the maturation and healing of their humanity.

So, human formation, healing, encounter with Jesus, that's what we're all about. So, if you're kind of looking at going, what's the nuance here? Human formation is a big nuance. Encounter with Jesus is a big nuance. Um, but we do that through conferences, podcasts, like, podcasts. Uh, we have a podcast and Joe, you've been on ours, which was a great gift to us.

So Heather has a podcast, my wife, she and I run it together, abiding together. I have a podcast called restore the glory. Heather and I are actually going to be starting our own podcast together. It's one of our ministries and podcasts are a thing we love to do. So they'll, that will be one. We do conferences and talks and formation courses, et cetera.

But if you go to the website, you get a sense of all that. And Joey, I, I'm sorry, I know I'm way over time, but I, you, you had asked a question about. Do you say to your spouse or do you not? And I think I'll answer that very, very simply. I wish there was an easy black or white answer. I don't think there is one, but here is one thing I will say in my experience.

I don't know anyone, and I'm sure they exist, but I don't know anyone who hasn't told their spouse and gotten through it. I say that as a field note from my experience. Now, hundreds of people could write in and say, Hey, I great. I just don't know about them. I have a lot of stories of people who have broken free when their spouse was on the journey with them and their spouse was aware.

That's my story. So. That's one comment I would make. But back to the other thing, life restoration podcast, you know, retreats, et cetera, go to that website. Love that. And one piece of advice on that for everyone listening. I've heard that when you do tell your spouse, you want to make sure there's someone else present there who is some have some level of competence in this, because then your spouse has somewhere to go to, to talk about these things and not just between the two of you.

So I've heard that's a really, really helpful tactic. Yeah, we don't want to be flippant. Like, I mean, It's not about you. That's the thing. Um, I mean, we, yeah, we could do a whole other episode just about that, but there's a lot of differing opinions there, but love them. The point is to love them. It's not to get you out of the doghouse or to get you better.

Remember, it's not about you. The point is, what do they need? How can I love them well? Okay. No. So good. And Jake, thank you so much for coming on the show. I could talk with you forever and just such good content, good advice. I want to give you the last word, like what's one final piece of encouragement that you would give to everyone listening, especially someone who finds himself where you were years ago.

Trust Jesus. It sounds cliche, but when you are with him, when you're facing his direction, even if it feels like you're so far away, you don't lose. You never lose. When you are close to Jesus facing him, trust him, it's worth it. So good. Jake is amazing. And it's really an understatement to say that if you want to really soak in all the wisdom that he has to offer, uh, relistening to that episode is a smart move.

But I wanted to highlight the six tips that he gave to break free from sexual compulsion or addiction. Uh, one is sacraments like confession. He mentioned two, People someone to coach you and really hold you accountable through this whole process of breaking free a three therapy to heal the brokenness that drives that behavior for his prayer to tap into strength.

That's beyond your own five is fasting to grow your self control yourself mastery muscle. And six is truth to bury those lies. How to keep you stuck. And if you want more content like this, I highly recommend checking out Jake's website and the podcast that he hosts. Um, but I'd also humbly recommend our podcast series called healing sexual brokenness.

It's a six part series where we just offer a lot of tactics and resources from experts on how to overcome unwanted sexual behavior. So you can find freedom. And it's so relevant for people like us who come from divorce and broken families, because one expert found that 90 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction actually come from a broken family, pretty mind blowing.

And so if you want to listen to that, there's two ways you can do that. Uh, in your podcast app, you can just, once you've selected our show, you can just search. Healing, sexual brokenness, and you'll see all of those episodes. Um, or you can just click on the link in the show notes of this episode, which will take you to restored ministry.

com slash sexual brokenness again, restored ministry. com slash sexual brokenness, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, if you take like 20 seconds out and message them, I promise you they will be so grateful.

And in closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#102: Healing Sexual Brokenness: Your Sexual Brokenness Isn’t Random | Jay Stringer

What if I told you that your sexual struggles could be predicted by your untreated trauma?

Today, we’re joined by author Jay Stringer who studied ~4,000 men and women who struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction, such porn, masturbation, affairs, buying sex, and much more. 

In this episode, we breakdown his NEW study and more:

• How the sexual fantasies and porn searches of the study participants could be predicted by their untreated trauma

• Why we often repeat behavior that harmed us, such as sexual abuse or affairs, and how to avoid that

• How anger actually drives unwanted sexual behavior

• Why people from rigid or disengaged families are much more likely to struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction

• How in order to break free, you have to listen to your lust and understand why you struggle in the particular ways that you do

• Why typical lust management strategies like accountability software are not enough

Whether you struggle with sexual brokenness or know someone who does, this episode will help anyone find healing and lasting freedom from sexual brokenness.

Buy Jay’s Book: Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing

Get FREE Unwanted Chapters

Get FREE Mini-Course: Why You Feel Broken

Links & Resources

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• Books

  • The Body Keeps the Score | Bessel van der Kolk M.D.

  • The Myth of Normal | Gabor Maté MD

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What if I told you that your sexual struggles could actually be predicted by the untreated trauma that you've endured in your life. Would you want to know more about that? If so this episode is for you, that insight actually comes from the book, unwanted. How sexual Brokenness reveals our way to healing in which the author says this. He says, I'm asking you to consider the possibility that your sexual struggle is not random. Today, I speak to that author, Jay Stringer who studied almost 4000 men and women who struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction such as porn, masturbation affairs, buying sex. And more in this episode, we break down that new study and more like I mentioned, we talk about how the sexual fantasies and porn searches of the study participants could actually be predicted by the untreated trauma they endured. Why we often repeat behavior that harmed us such as sexual abuse or affairs and how you can avoid that. How anger actually drives unwanted sexual behavior. Really, really interesting stuff. Why people from rigid or disengaged families are much more likely to struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction. How in order to break free. You have to listen to your lust and understand why you struggle in the particular ways that you do. And finally why typical lust management strategies like accountability software are actually not enough, whether you struggle with sexual Brokenness or you know, someone who does this episode will help anyone find healing and lasting freedom from sexual Brokenness. So keep listening, welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 102. This episode is actually part four of our series called Healing Sexual Brokenness on the show. You know that we feature stories and expert interviews about how to heal from the trauma of your parents', divorce and broken family or how to navigate the pain and the problems that stem from it. One of the biggest problems that often stems from your family's breakdown is unwanted sexual behavior like pornography, masturbation, hookup, culture, paying for sex and fidelity and so much more. In fact, one expert found that almost 90% of those who struggle with sexual addiction come from a broken family. In this series, you'll get tactics and resources to overcome unwanted sexual behavior so you can find freedom, little trigger warning. This is obviously a mature topic. So we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around Children with that. My guest today is Jay Stringer. Stringer is best known for helping both men and women find freedom from sexual Brokenness and pursue the life. They truly desire a licensed mental health counselor, an ordained minister and an acclaimed international speaker. Jay provides a safe and supportive environment for individuals seeking to address unwanted sexual behavior. Now, based in New York City, Jay has spent more than a decade at the forefront of combating the demand for sexual exploitation and porn geography. Through his clinical work, he offers a comprehensive understanding of the origins of sexual Brokenness, shedding light on the factors that sustain these struggles. Jay's award winning book, Unwanted is the culmination of an extensive research project that delves into the stories of 3800 men and women. That book has sold more than 100,000 copies and has widely been embraced by counselors, churches and small groups globally affirming its impact and relevance. I'm so excited for you to learn from Jay. So here's our conversation, Jay. Welcome to the show, Joe. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here starting out. I just want to say you are the freaking man. I just love everything you're doing. I have so much respect and admiration for you. I found your content so helpful. So thank you so much. I look up to you a lot. I'm honored to have you here. Thank you for reading the book and sharing it with others. So I have so many questions for you and uh so we'll just go, go at them. But uh starting out, I'm just curious, what do you care about, about this so much? Why do you care about this problem? Why do you care about people who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior? You know, one of the first stories that comes to mind is, uh I went through graduate school, got my master's in counseling psychology when I was probably in my mid twenties. And my grandfather whose name was Elmer died when I was about 25 26 years old. And I went to his funeral in sort of the North Florida area. And I remember being in his funeral and not sure if you've ever had this sense, but like the sadness that I felt was not so much that he had passed away, but far more the reality that I never knew this man in his life. Like we knew some of the cover stories, some of the big stories of his life, the headline stories, but we never really, I never really knew uh the man. And so I remember flying back across the country from Florida, back to Seattle where I was in grad school at the time and just having this kind of inner defiance rise up within me of, I need to understand my, my story, I need to understand who these major characters are and I need to get to know my grandmother. So the first one up on that docket was my grandmother, Dorothy, who was my dad's mom. And uh you know, long story I could share about her, but I always referred to her as just like a cold steel door of emotion. Like I have a memory of being eight years old. And she had called our house middle of January. And she had said, uh, you know, are your parents there? I said no. And I said, can I take a message for them? And she said, yeah, if you could just let your parents know that I was quite disappointed by what your family gave me for Christmas this year. I don't know, she's probably in her mid seventies or something at that point. And I'm like, I'm not even allowed to say that. Um And so that was the challenge with Dorothy. But I took her out to a cafe on her 90th birthday, went and got the skeleton keys that I wanted to represent the era of her birth year. So they were keys from like 1916, 17, 18, somewhere in that range, took her out to a cafe. I gave her these keys and I said, grandma, these three keys symbolize three lunches that I wanna take you out to, to learn more about your life. And you know, most grandmothers would be deeply touched by an expression like that. But my grandmother was horrified and five seconds passes, 10 seconds passes she says nothing. Uh eventually she looks back up at me and passes the box back across the table and says, Jay, there are some doors you just don't open. There are some stories you just don't tell. And that was probably what sealed the deal for me to become a psychotherapist is, you know, there are stories that so many of us have that we are too ashamed to tell and then you get closer to those stories and that's where shame defensiveness, blame really begin to rise. And so I think that was really the beginning of i it's not just me that has a story of secrecy and silence and judgment, not just my father, probably not just my grandmother, but many generations. And so part of what we found out about my grandmother was she was likely sexually assaulted by a family member sometime in her mid teens. And that was a story that she was never able to share with any of her friends with any of the religious communities that she was part of. And I've wondered so much since that day, you know, how her life, how my father's life, how my life would have been different if she had had a context to share some of the sexual stories that she was part of in life. And so I think, you know, I have my own history with pornography use and struggles. Uh But I think far more than that, it's a sense of like this is the story that shame narrates in our life has an impact over many, many generations. And again, just that inner sense of defiance of, I don't want sexual shame and stigma to have the last word in an individual's life. Much less many generations from now. So that was kind of the impetus to write. The book is as a therapist, seeing a lot of people struggling with infidelity pornography use and yet most of the resources that were out there were kind of like lust or symptom management of kind of bounce your eyes, put some internet monitoring on your computer or try and just militantly fight it or on the other side would just be like this is just a common issue that everybody faces. So don't try too hard to fight it because it's completely normal. And so I think just that sense of either lust management or just shame management. Those are the two primary ways that I, I see society trying to address these problems. And so that was the decision that I had to do some research of like, what could we find out about the key drivers that are influencing people to use these behaviors and pursue these choices rather than just stigmatizing or normalizing them. So good. And thanks for sharing. So vulnerably. Yeah, I I'm so excited to get into the study. So you studied a little under four 1000 men and women who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior. He also did a bunch of robust data analysis on those findings if you would break down that study and how it was done. Uh So we, we designed a research instrument that basically looked at, you know, we looked at attachment theory like what was people's attachment like to their mothers and fathers? Were their family systems very rigid, disengaged or very emotionally enmeshed. And then we looked at what are called adverse childhood experiences. And those are the kind of the big tea and little tea traumas that we all go through anything from bullying to sexual abuse to kind of uh issues of abandonment and neglect. And then we looked at what were people dealing with in the present? From depression anxiety, uh a lack of purpose in their life and all of that has kind of been researched before. But the really fascinating and slightly maybe even intrusive thing that we did was we asked people to share, not just do they look, get porn, but what are the things that they go to the internet for? Like, what are the search terms? And so several of the major porn sites would publish, you know, the top 10, top 20 search board terms on the internet in terms of porn. So we took, I believe it was like 10 or 15 of the number, the top 15 searches that were out on the internet. And we just were like, what if we put that in the instrument as well. And we had a team at New York University handle some of the analytics with it because I don't have my background or phd and analytics, not smart enough or have the patience for that level of TDO and boredom and expertise. But uh that's what we did. We put all that together like family story, uh role that you played in your family, current problems that you're facing and what's known as the arousal template, which is kind of a constellation of thoughts, images, sensations, fantasies that bring sexual arousal to someone. And we were just really curious what we would find and that was what the data came back is if I were to say like the thesis of my work in that book, unwanted would be that, you know, sexual problems are not a life sentence to sexual shame or stigma. They're a road map to healing and growth. And so we found that sexual fantasies that people were troubled by or wanted to outgrow uh were not random at all. Uh They were actually a direct reflection of the unaddressed issues of their life. And so that's the premise of the work that I do with people is, you know, let's put the problem in the foreground. Let's get really curious about where it comes from, why it might be manifesting in this way and begin to break those things down so that we can understand what driving it. And so we can learn how to heal and then also how to outgrow it so good. And I've read a good amount on this topic, especially just in my past, having struggled with pornography and other un monos behavior and your book is just so revolutionary. There's nothing like it. And, and so that's why I wanted to talk to you. And that's why I, I love the book and I recommend it wherever I go. On. That last note that you mentioned about, um, you know, studying the specifics of people's struggle. I was really blown away about how the sexual fantasies and how the even the porn searches of the individuals in the study, like you said, could actually be predicted by their past untreated trauma. Would you go deeper into that? So, yeah, so a couple, you know, these would be more softball tosses, but I think they're good to be able to understand and break down a little bit. So we looked at, ok, let's say that you were a man and you were drawn towards kind of themes of college or teen porn or maybe you wanted to see someone that was, had a more petite body type or a race that suggested to you some level of subservience. Uh We wanted to see what was driving that and we found that the three primary drivers of that were a very rigid father growing up, a lack of purpose in their life and high levels of shame. So if we were to just play armchair psychologists, just for a moment, if you're growing up with a father who tends to be very authoritarian, very rigid part of what you experience in life is a level of powerlessness, right? So he has all the power, he makes the rules, he has the regulations and he might rule with an iron fist or it just might be like a look that can really shame you into compliance. So when you're growing up in that family, you're gonna feel powerlessness, but also probably some level of humiliation under his reign. So we have that unaddressed story, which how do you talk to your dad about that? You can't, how do you talk to friends about that? You usually don't, but that that issue has to go somewhere. So then this person grows up into someone who's trying to get their career started, but has all this unaddressed family of origin stuff that they've never addressed. And so then they feel a lack of purpose in their life. And one of the things we found in the research was that if the man is struggling with the lack of purpose, meaning he looked back over the course of his life and saw a lot of failure. He felt just a sense of being stymied or stuck with making any movement in his career. He was seven times more likely to increase his involvement in porn compared to those who had, uh, a really solid sense of purpose in their life. So we have this story that begins in childhood where you're, you have no power and then you grow up into a man and you feel like you don't have any power in your life. Well, that's one of the primary allures to pornography is not just lust or fantasy. It's a level of power that for, you know, nine minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes you can get exactly what you want, see exactly what you want to see and you feel like you have power and autonomy over your life. And that's a rare experience for someone like that. So as you can see if you're only trying to fight to stop using porn, but you're not fighting to discover purpose or you're not fighting to heal some of those wounds that your father afflicted you with your struggle with porn is going to remain. And so I think that's the key insight is instead of just trying to fight and unwanted behavior, go back to fight to discover the meaning embedded within it. And if we can heal that and outgrow it, then we have a really solid chance of not just like being free from porn, but far more making movement and finding flourishing in life and living a life of meaning. Precisely. There's so much more there than just, yeah, like the absence of pornography. I hope people don't misconstrue this whole series that we're doing on healing sexual Brokenness, like there's something so good on the other side. And so I love that you're, you're mentioning this. I, on a similar note, I'm fascinated, especially given that we're serving, you know, teenagers and young adults who come from what we call broken families where there's divorce, separation or just a lot of dysfunction. We're fascinated by this idea of repetition, compulsion. We don't talk about that a lot in the show. But this idea of how you might repeat behavior that you even despise. That's my understanding of it at least. And so an example that I often give is like a girl who maybe grew up with an abusive father who ends up marrying an abusive husband, even though she swore she would never do that. And so more particularly for my audience, so many of us come from families where mom or dad cheated on the other and now they're terrified of repeating that in their own relationship. Yeah. So two questions on this. Why has that happened? Like, why do we repeat these behaviors, especially in this sexual context? And perhaps more importantly, how do we avoid that? Let me address like, how do we avoid it first? And then let's go back. So there's this great quote from a guy named Richard Rohr who says the pain that we do not transform, we transmit always someone else has to suffer because I don't know how to. So uh that's what's happening intergenerational is that we have all this pain uh that a lot of us have not always been able to transform. And if we don't transform that pain, we are going to transmit it onto the next generation. And so how do we transform pain? I would say it's a matter of finding grief and finding anger. So grief is that sense of it when you're staring down the Brokenness of many generations, like, you know, the story that I shared about my grandmother when I'm dealing with my own compulsion for secrecy and shame, you know, I can either choose to try and hide that or I can try and will my way through it or I can begin to allow tears to fall with regard to. This has been a deeply broken sexual story in my family for generations, right? And so the only I think real appropriate response to that is a level of grief, but also the other side to that is a level of anger of I don't want trauma to win in my life or my kid's life. And so if we can kind of hold that razor's edge of, sometimes we need grief for some of the tragedies and heartaches that we have known. But also we need a level of anger and defiance to say like no more. Uh this is not going to continue in my family. So any of my clients that I see that are able to hold that paradox of grief and anger end up transforming their lives. So that's how we get out of it. Why does that happen? Uh We are learning more and more and more every day about why this happens. So, one of the fascinating studies uh that's been not just studies but field of studies would be epigenetics and that's the study of gene expression. And so they have done studies with uh something like water fleas. So water fleas that are exposed to a predator, they will give birth to other water fleas that are born with a helmeted or horned head. And that will remain on the water fleas for subsequent generations until the threat is removed from the water. So that's just microscopic water fleas right born with helmeted heads because of the trauma in the water. So if that's happening with water fleas, how much more is that happening with family systems? How much more is that happening with your sexual story? So, epigenetics, I think begins to answer some of that, some of the other things that we know. Uh and this would just be an adage in psychology would be uh we go to people that are familiar to us because they are familial. And so that sense of if you are used to a particular man or woman or archetype in your family, that might be compulsive or uh using substances or having a secretive life that gets coded in your neuros systems, neurobiology is like, this is just a normal person to be around. And so the people that you feel comfortable with later on in life will probably end up resembling what your body has known. And so just that sense of that's part of the repetition. Uh but the other thing I would say, and then I'll pause to see if there's any clarification would be it. You know, all of us that are growing up in these types of home have endured some level of trauma and trauma according to people like Gabor mate and Peter Levine would say that trauma is not just something that happens to us. Trauma is also what happens inside of us in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so just that sense of when the divorce occurred, when the alcoholism occurred, when there was some level of Brokenness, it wasn't just that that event occurred. The bigger question is who held your tears? Who held your rage? Uh who held your face in the midst of a family system breaking down? And if you didn't have someone that offered a face that was able to bear witness to what you went through, you have unaddressed trauma in your life and what's the impact of unaddressed trauma? Uh Three things we have fragmentation. Number one, number two would be a sense of the need to numb. And then the third would be isolation. So, fragmentation, numbing and isolation. So, fragmentation is just that sense of uh when the story is broken. When the family is broken, there's not solid ground to stand on. There is difficulty. We don't know where to go. We don't know what tomorrow looks like. We don't know what five years looks like. And so there's just a sense of how is a nine year old girl supposed to hold the reality of a family imploding or blowing up due to some particular issue where you can't. So you go from this sense of profound fragmentation of life into the need to numb and why do we numb? Well, because the pain of what we are experiencing is far too much. And so that could be finding porn is a great numbing agent, promiscuity. Uh Hooking up with people could be a great numbing agent. Uh Alcoholism, just a lot of substances or screen time can all help us numb and dissociate from the pain that we're experiencing. But then after fragmentation, after you've found kind of the go to numbing device, uh you will inevitably end up in some level of isolation from what you're experiencing. So the shame of what numbing you chose or just the reality that you don't have a lot of people in your life that are able to bear with to what you went through. You end up highly isolated in life. And that's the story that gets repeated over and over again is that we feel fragmented in our adult life. It's too painful to deal with our own family or our own career. So then we find things to numb out with and then we eventually feel isolated and then we're like, dang it. Uh I'm right back to where my family was. Why am I so screwed up? What's wrong with me? My whole family is messed up. I'm messed up. And then that's really where that sense of shame solidifies in our life. Wow. I know that's a lot. No, it's amazing. Generational trauma. But that's, that's how we heal. But also that's why it keeps happening. No, this is so relevant to our audience. And I'd invite everyone listening to actually rewind and listen to that section again because there's so much there. It's so dense. It's so rich. It's so good and there's so much I want to say, but I can relate on such a deep level to everything that you said. So I was 11 when my parents separated and that just shattered my world. Uh They later got divorced and it was just really difficult. And one of the ways that I numbed was pornography. A friend of mine introduced me to it and, um, fell into that habit. Thankfully, I was able to get it out of my life, but it was, um, certainly some an escape, a distraction from the pain in my life. That was just too much to deal with that sense of feeling just broken or fragmented like you said, I, I felt that palpably Jay, like it was palpable through high school into college. It was like, man, I just, I feel so broken. I know I need to heal and I just had no idea how to go about that, which is actually why this ministry exists because I don't want other young people going through the same thing like they deserve better. Um Another thing that you mentioned was just like going to what's familiar. So I've seen this a lot and the young people that I work with, especially when it comes to relationships. It's like, yeah, we, we end up kind of back with people who treat it as similar as our family. Like you said, even to the point that we've noticed that even to the point that healthy relationships feel boring, like they literally feel like uninteresting because we're looking for drama, we're looking for dysfunction and the lack of it seems like this might be isn't the right thing and, and that is just mind blowing as well, so, so much to say there. But thank you for going through it and just want to give you a chance to comment on any of that. Yeah, it's heartbreaking to see these patterns be repeated. But I think that that there's yeah, there's so much in there for healing and growth and I think that's, I mean, that's what we talking about is like there are so many things in our present life that do need to be addressed, that we do need to heal, that we do need to outgrow. But if you are engaging that issue with a level of contempt, like how could I be so stupid or what's wrong with me? Uh You're not going to heal or grow and so growth and healing require a level of curiosity and kindness. And that's what we're getting at is, can you at least be curious about why you might be drawn to the partner that you're drawn to? Can you be kind to the reality that you have an unaddressed sexual struggle uh that you don't know what to do with and most of your efforts to change that uh have actually, you know, thickened the plot. And, and I think again, if we can hold that razor's edge between, how can I be curious, how can I be kind? But also I have a lot of integrity with regard to, I don't want this to, to ruin my relationships. And I don't want this to rob my experience of joy in life. That's really where change will begin to unfold. Makes so much sense. I, I think one of the struggles for this audience in particular coming from these divorced families especially is that so often um because divorce is so common, it becomes so normalized, it's not even called the trauma. So that point that you mentioned about isolation people, I can't tell you today, like how many people we've heard who reach out and say, like I just feel so validated, listening to interviews like this, hearing the experts, like you on the show talk about this stuff because it's just so freeing. And um one other thing I wanted to mention on repetition, compulsion was, um I've noticed and I've heard this from other psychologists as well that you so sometimes kind of go down that path of that unhealthy behavior that you observed growing up almost in an attempt to rewrite the ending of the story. It's like, well, you know, dad or mom cheated on the other. If I maybe start going down that path, I can end it in a way that I wanted them to do that. But uh any final thoughts on that before we move on. Yeah, I mean, there's so much there. Uh one thing that I was thinking about when you were talking uh would just be like we have to think about this in terms of attachment as well. So like when you know, when you, when there's a divorce that happens, your attachments are severed. And so that you found porn at a point where your attachments were severed, that's the work that we want people to be doing is, you know, how have these broken attachments with a mom or a dad actually? Like where is that playing itself out? And for a lot of people, they begin to kind of get a sense of I would never felt attached to my mom or my dad. But that first time that they experience porn or that first time that they uh took a substance, it was like a warm hug that they had never had before. And so that, I mean, I think just even that language would be just really important to understand your attachment. So the point that you were making with regard to people feeling validated and listening to your podcast, um a a little bit bit of kind of neuroscience on that and brain neuroscience, I guess as well would be we have something in the left uh prefrontal lobe called Broca's area. And Broca's area is what's responsible for speech. And so any time that there is a trauma, Broca's area goes offline and so you may have even had that experience in your adolescence or childhood where you know, the divorce happened or something rocked your family and then people are like, how are you? And it's just an aggravating awful question because you're like, I don't know what to say to this. It's like I have no freaking words for what I have been through. I don't know how I talk about any of this kind of stuff. Well, why is that? It's not because you're dumb. It's not because you're stupid and just can't articulate something. It is a form of trauma where Broca's area goes offline. And so again, back to the empathetic witness, but also Brene Brown talks about this in her newest book, she quotes a German philosopher who says that the limits of my language are the limits of my world. And so that's part of what this podcast is doing and what you're doing is you're expanding people's language, which is expanding their world, which is helping them make sense of what they have been through. And so that's where, you know, having an empathetic witness, but also a podcast or just any language that helps people name what they've never been able to name before. Uh group therapy, really important for people coming out of these types of family systems as well because you get to hear other people's experience and you're like, yeah, I had that experience as well like, yeah, moving schools or the shame in my community or you know, how do I deal with the relief of it was really good to get that narcissistic man or what and out of the house. Uh So grateful I can kind of date my life before my mom left and then after she left because it got so much better for me. So we just never quite know in sharing our stories with one another. Uh what's gonna resonate and then what's going to help us develop and cultivate our language for what we've lived through? Wow, so good. And I appreciate all that. If people want to learn more about the neurobiology, neuroscience, are there any books that you recommend starting with because I could tell this is so relevant to our audience. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the, I I would say the body keeps the score by Bessel Van Der Kolk is a great um initial read. If people haven't read it, it's just, I think it breaks down pretty complex uh neuroscience and just the understanding of a lot of what we're talking about, of how does how does the body keep the score from what we have been through? So I would say go there first and then Gabor Mate, uh the myth of normal dives into some of that as well. So there's a lot more neuroscience coming out around all this. But I would say start with Bessel Van Der Kolk or Gara mate. Thanks for that. And I know everyone will, will love hearing that if you were to add anything. Like let's say you were to sit down with a young person. You already said so much. I think that applies to this. But let's say if you're going to sit down with the young person to have that difficult conversation with them about, yeah, just them wrestling with, dealing with their mom and their dad cheating on the other. Would you add anything to what you've already said if you were to again sit across from them and just help them wrestle with that? Mhm. Well, I think it's like the, what's the meaning that they made out of the affair. Right. So, um that's just really important to get a sense of, you know, were there details that they were privy to that, you know, sometimes it was a sense of, it wasn't just the detail of the affair, but they had some sense that their mom or their dad lacked integrity in other areas of their life as well. So, were they brought in, you know, there's just, there's so many different ways that this could play out within a family. So some families, it could be, I, you know, my dad was always traveling and on business and so it, it was never a surprise that he had something of a hidden life or it could be that some parents bring their Children into some of the drama and some of the love affair of what they are developing. So there's this sense of, you know, what did your parent ask you to hold? Was it more emotionally and mesh leading up to that affair? Or was there just more neglect and abandonment? And then that usually has implications from there of kind of what I would follow. So those issue, those questions that you're asking are so good Joey, but it's also, it's so contextual to, yeah, what's the family system like? And you know, all of us have, even though my dad's name is John and my mom's name is Beth. I have a different relationship to my mom than any of my siblings. Uh they have a different relationship to my mom than any of us. So even though we have the same mom, each of us have different mothers. We have different fathers. And so uh that's usually the work of therapy is to kind of get a sense of who was your mother father to you, but also who were they to you as well? Love that. And I think it's an important reminder that there's not just like this one size fits all five step plan to heal anything in your life. Like it is so contextual, like you said, it is so personal and I think it is that way for a reason because like you said, healing happens in relationships. And so, well, that's a relationship with a therapist, a friend, a mentor. We really need people to go into that depth, into the darkness, into the Brokenness with us. In order to come out the other side, we really can't do it alone. And for someone like me who's just like, I've noticed this a lot with our audience too. Like we developed this sort of fierce independence because we felt like, well, you know, I can't really rely on mom and dad, like they're so busy, boring with each other that I kind of have to learn how to stand on my own 2 ft. And then we carry this Brokenness with us through life and these unwanted behaviors. And it's like, man, I really want to get these out of my life. But I have this tendency to just rely on no one just to rely on myself to have this first independence and it puts you in a really tough spot. Yeah. So two things there, part of what we're talking about is the role that each person developed within their family system and you've got to understand your role. So for some people there is that approach of, I can't rely on anyone from here on out. And then yes, you develop a life of a lot of secretive behaviors because you're trying to make your life work outside of the context of relationship. And so that's, you know, the work of healing is to be able to say, I bless that boy, that girl that figured out a way to get through life through being fiercely independent. But then usually at some point in your thirties or forties, there's usually going to be a crisis of the person that you became in response to your trauma is now causing new problems. And so that's always the paradox of this work is let's bless that adolescent, that young adult that learned a way of life to help them survive. But anything that we begin to lean on in the aftermath of trauma will inevitably create problems for us later on in life. And we've got to address that. So that's one role, another role might be, you know, it's the, the son or the daughter who their mother or father never got the therapy or the friendship that they needed in the aftermath of the trauma. And so that child feels like I can't really go off to live my own independent life because I need to kind of tend to my mother or to my father because if I don't, I am something of their lifeline. And so it's that sense of the umbilical cord is still connected to your mother because you feel that sense of if I go off and live my own life, she's gonna be alone. And so I will sacrifice some of my desires and some of my independence. Uh so that she doesn't have to face some of this loneliness. And so then you try and get married, maybe you do get married and then there's this fierce loyalty of like, you know, my spouse wants me to be doing this, but then I really need to go on vacation or at least make a family visit to my grandmother or, or to my mom or to my dad. And again, what is that exposing? It's exposing the role that you learned how to play in a very broken system. And so, you know, don't think that just because you're fiercely independent, you have escape trauma, but also don't think because like you're still very enmeshed with your family system that that event from 20 years ago is still not affecting your life today. So in the words of kind of the writer Faulkner, the, the past is not dead. It's not even past meaning it's playing out right now. One of my guests said that sometimes the past lives in the present. I thought that that's exactly what you're saying. It's, it's so true. And I think that's the work of feeling that we can put the past in the past and live fully in the present, which is beautiful man. There's so much I want to ask you, but let's switch gears a little bit. I was so fascinated by the connection you made in the book between Lust and Anger. Just mind blowing. You said this. You said, I believe male anger to be at the heart of much of the sexual Brokenness and violation in our world want to find out why you're so compelled to pursue unwanted sexual behavior. Figure out what makes you so angry, what's happening here? Why does anger drive those behaviors? Yeah. So we need to think about kind of these behaviors, unwanted sexual behaviors as a river. And so the comparison that I make would be like, think about your unwanted sexual behavior as like a river no different than the Mississippi. And so why is the Mississippi river so powerful? Well, it's because it's fed by so many other tributaries. So the Missouri, the Arkansas, Tennessee Red, I forget how many tributaries the Mississippi has, but it's a lot. And so that sense of what we're dealing with is not just one issue. Uh There are several tributaries that flow into it. And so uh in a lot of kind of faith based communities, they always address, they always try to address the issue of lust. And so what they do is they try and put a dam on that river and they put internet monitoring there. They try and get people into invasive voyeuristic accountability groups. Uh They try to get people to kind of just will themselves to kind of dam it up so that it doesn't flow. And then they find out that it, you know, maybe might work for a little bit, but then it, it inevitably fails. Well, they, they've only looked at one tributary which would be some level of lust, but they haven't looked at other things like unaddressed trauma. They haven't looked at family of origin issues. They haven't looked at the issue of anger. And so anger would just be that sense of, you know, that the man that I was describing earlier with regard to lack of purpose in his life. And also, you know, some level of a rigid father, well, that anger has to go somewhere and for a lot of people, if you don't have a and most of us don't have a context in our world today to talk about the anger of a broken family, to talk about the anger uh that we have towards our moms towards our dads or towards just really anything, uh, any presidential candidate, like we are a people that have so much unaddressed anger in our lives and it's being lived out always. And so that's one of the appeals to porn. You know, let's say that you're in a marriage and someone doesn't like sex as much as you do and you feel like there's some desire discrepancy. Well, if you don't tend to that with honor and delight for one another, there is going to be a sense of I'm angry at you. So I'm gonna go behind your back and feel really justified doing what I want to do because you don't desire sex as much as I do. So therefore, I'm gonna take my anger to this world of porn. Uh Or maybe, maybe you didn't get the promotion that you wanted at work and you feel like that person that so undeserving got it. Well, what are you gonna do with that? Anger? And a lot of times people will begin to find that porn or an affair really begins to kind of help soothe them and calm them down after they're really angry or upset about something. So again, there's just so many different key drivers and don't think that you can just address it through trying to combat lust. It's just, it's not an effective approach. It's a losing battle for sure. Elsewhere in the book, you say this, you say the first key childhood driver of unwanted sexual behavior is having a family system that was characterized as rigid and or disengaged. You mentioned that earlier in the show, Dr Patrick Cars, one of the leading researchers on sexual compulsivity found that 77% of those who struggle with sexual addiction report coming from a rigid family and 87% percent report coming from a disengaged family. I know we can't go too deep into this. But what are the characteristics of those family, families and anything else to add on why they play such a big role? Sure. So, I mean, a rigid family really comes down to this issue of kind of discipline. So discipline for some families might be, yeah, like a, a paddle, corporal punishment. But it could also be something more subtle where you just knew that like you needed to get straight A's or you were gonna be interrogated by a mother or a father. Uh It's usually some sense of like we need conformity in this family because conformity gives us some level of stable ground to lean on. But then if you don't conform in some way, there's usually some discipline that you have to undergo. Well, what's the root word of discipline? Uh It is a disciple which means to teach. And so that's the really key question is, was the disc was the discipline in your home? Did it help you to understand your emotions and why you did the things that you did or was it really trying to use control based methods against you? Um And that's usually, uh you know, a big part of those rigid families is it's gonna create a lot of powerlessness, a lot of humiliation. And so you have to take that somewhere. So what I say in my book is that a rigid family creates fertile soil for anger to emerge, what we were just talking about disengaged family systems would be, you know, much more abandonment and neglect. It's just the sense that care is overlooked in your life. Um And so just from that attachment standpoint that we grow up looking for someone looking for us. And this never ever stops. As long as we are alive and conscious is that we're looking for the delight. We're looking for the faces of people in our world to love us, affirm us, be there for us. And if we are looking out into our family system and there is no loving, compassionate, a deeply delighting face that is given back to us, we are going to scan the horizon looking for someone to look at us. And a lot of times that's what will happen where I will hear people that come from disengaged family systems. And it's like, yeah, the first time that I saw porn, what I was drawn to were the eyes of someone in the porn film because it felt like they were looking into my soul. And I had never had that experience of someone just kind of looking deeply and wanting me. Well, that's an attachment womb that's being sexualized into porn. And so what I say in my book is that disengaged family systems, create fertile soil for lust to emerge. And so I think that's the work is we've got to not just fight against a sexual problem. We've got to go back to the core stories with our parents, with our families. Uh where there is unaddressed, anger and unaddressed grief in our life. Absolutely. No. So good. And, and you're hitting on stuff that this audience deals with so much. So, thank you for, for going into this so well, I've heard you also speak about this tension in families between honor and honesty. Again, we can't go into it too deeply. But what does that look like? And how do you hit that proper balance? Because so many of the young people that I walk with, they really struggle with that, you know, there's like this protection they have of their parents even though they harm them in a lot of ways. Um But they still love them and you know, we want to honor that. So, so how do you hit that balance between the two? So yes, I think we have to hold the tension between honor and honesty. And I would say most people had believed the lie that if I am honest about my mother or father or faith community that I could not truly honor them or the other realm would be if I honored my mother or father or faith community, I could not actually be honest about what I experienced. And I just to point out like that is not the way it is supposed to be. So I think of some of the, you know, ancient. So something like the story of Abraham uh that is held by many different faiths. We know that Abraham in kind of Genesis 12 left everything that he was supposed to leave to go into this land that God had called him to. Uh he is the father of many faiths. And at the same time, we also know that he tried to traffic his wife at least twice. And so it's this sense of like it, the, you know, the Bible is an ancient near east document, which means it's much more of like an Eastern context than anything we would know about it in the western world. So in the western world, we might tend to bend a bit more towards just trying to be honest, uh and unbridled honesty in our day age, but we don't always have honor. But in an, in an Eastern context, I mean, it's all family honor. So just that sense of like we're able to hold, you know, the paradox of this person is full of faith, but they're also a profound coward. And that's the work is, you know, when I've had to address my own family system, I've had to understand that, you know, my dad was consistently reading psychology and theological text together. And so when I think back to my origins of how did I learn how to integrate kind of faith and psychology and being naturally curious about why things work the eyes in the heart and the brain that I have were formed by many conversations with my dad throughout my childhood. So I can honor him for that. But I also have to be honest, that much of the debris in my life and difficulty with attaching and feeling my emotions and having the ability to kind of know what to do with some of the heartache and trauma in my life and his abandonment of my family. And in very significant moments is something that I've had to grow increasingly honest about. And so I think that's the work is uh I, I deeply love my dad and honor him for who he is. And he's a deeply broken man that created a lot of debris in our family. And that Brokenness is not grounds for separation or blame. But I think it's that sense of the grief in our family and in the midst of honoring and being honest about our grief. I think that allows for a new family life to emerge where it's not trying to keep up the appearance of what the stringer family name was supposed to represent. But it's also not trying to kind of just be cruel and angry with one another. But it's a sense of the honesty creates a new foundation of intimacy and that's what we're after. Beautiful and that's healing in itself. We're almost out of time here. But in order to break free, you know, you say that you need to listen to your lust, you mentioned that before. I love, love your analogy of imagining your sexual life as a house. Would you explain that? Yeah. So it probably should have addressed this early on in case people are like, why would I think about my sexual fantasies or porn searches? But uh the basic premise here would be I encourage people to think about their sexual life as a house. So just imagine it's late in the evening and they feel that familiar knock of lust or desire come to their door and just that sense of what are you gonna do in that moment? And some people will, you know, put a force field around their house, they will try and just say no, they might call a friend and say I'm really struggling or other times you just resign to like it's worse to fight this thing. So I'm just gonna let it in and let it ransack various rooms of my house. So as you can see most of the approaches that we take, either try to stiff arm these issues or they just kind of like, let them in. And so the approach that I take in my book and some of the online courses that I have is what would it mean for you to go out onto the front porch of your life and begin to ask your sexual life questions? Like, I wonder why this form of pornography has been appealing to me since I was the age of 15? Or? I wonder why I, I tend to be most seduced into an affair or to porn on a Sunday evening instead of the other days of the week. I wonder what's happening there. Uh So I want people to just develop a sense of curiosity about their life. So get out onto the front porch, ask your sexual life questions. Why am I drawn to this? Why do I love this? I wonder what the meaning is within this particular fantasy or I wonder why I can't reach orgasm without thinking about this particular person or this archetype or this fantasy. And I think that's the, that's the work of healing. It's a bit odd and counterintuitive at first. But I think curiosity can really take us so much further than just a desire to militantly fight something or uh even just praying over and over again to find healing. Uh I just, I think that those, that repetition just doesn't, it's not very generative for us. Yeah. No, so good. I love this approach. So much better than kind of what's typically thrown out there, like less management mastery in some way, like you say. So. Good Jay, you're the man. Thank you so much for your time. I don't want to keep you any longer if people want to get the book and the course in order to kind of be guided through everything that we talked about. How do they do that and how do they find you online as well? Probably the best would be just Instagram uh A Y underscore Stringer underscore the reason for all the underscores is I think there's another British crime fiction that is also J Stringer. So which is actually he was first to market it. Yes, those are your secret identity, right? Yes, exactly. So uh you can find me there website is jay dash stringer dot com and there are assessments that people can take uh if you want to learn this approach and learn the key drivers, there's what's called the sexual behavior self assessment that you can take. Uh the journey course is a faith based course for people that are looking for a new paradigm to address this. Uh unwanted is my book. And then we do a lot of individual intensives uh with my team. And then we also have a training program for leaders. So if you are a therapist, if you are a coach, a clergy of any kind, uh if you're in any type of leadership position, helping people to outgrow these problems we have what's called the unwanted guide program. And that's a 13 week training for professionals to help them understand their own story so that they are more effective in, in teaching others. So good Jay. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for everything you've done. I want to give you the, the last word quickly. Any final words of encouragement or advice for everyone listening, especially those who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior. I just keep going back to curiosity versus contempt. And most of us the way that we tend to engage our own life, our own relational life, our own sexual life is principally out of self contempt or other centered contempt and contempt, especially for us who have known trauma feels really powerful. Why? Because within fragmentation in our current life, fragmentation from our past, we need a sense of sure footing and contempt provides us with a sense of certainty in the midst of uncertainty. So if you can resist the temptation to choose contempt for yourself or to someone else, and you can begin to get curious about your life or someone else's life, it will be so much more beautiful, so much more transformative than anything else that you could choose. So give curiosity a try. Wow, Jay is amazing. His content in his book is just so so helpful. And the main takeaway from this episode, as you can tell is your sexual Brokenness is not random. It's not random. The key to healing. It is actually understanding why you struggle in the particular ways that you do. And Jay's book will help you do that again. It's titled Unwanted. How Sexual Brokenness Reveals our way to healing. Just click on the link in the show notes. If you want to buy that, I highly highly recommend it. And if you're not ready to buy the book, you can get the first chapter for free by going to J dash stringer dot com slash book or just clicking on the link in the show notes. So often as you can tell from this episode at the root of sexual compulsion or Brokenness is trauma. But before you can heal it, you have to understand it. Our free mini on trauma titled Why You Feel Broken consists of five short videos by a trauma therapist that answer the questions. What is trauma? What impact does it have on your body? How does it affect your emotions? What does it do to your mind and how does it impact your relationships again? Once you understand what trauma is and how it's affecting you today, then you can begin to heal and build a life that you long for to get the free mini course. It's really easy to just go to restored ministry dot com slash broken again. Restored ministry ministry is singular dot com slash broken to sign them for free and begin watching the mini course again. Go to restored ministry dot com slash broken or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.