How to Heal Your Nervous System Impacted by Your Parents' Divorce| Sr. Mary Stephen

Growing up with divorced parents or a dysfunctional family does not just shape your childhood. It shapes your nervous system. Many young people from broken homes live with chronic anxiety, shutdown, emotional overwhelm, or conflict avoidance without ever knowing why.

In this episode, Sr. Mary Stephen explains how childhood chaos trains your brain and body to stay on high alert and how to finally regulate your emotions instead of feeling controlled by them. You will learn simple, practical tools to calm your nervous system, process stored trauma, build internal safety, and integrate all of this with your spiritual life.

In this episode:

• Why your body still reacts like your parents are fighting

• How trauma gets stored in the nervous system

• Fight, flight, freeze, and shutdown explained

• Why talk therapy is not enough for many children of divorce

• Somatic exercises you can start using today

• How to feel safe, grounded, and present again

If you’re tired of feeling anxious, reactive, or stuck because of your family’s dysfunction, this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:42)

Welcome to the Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. What if your body still thinks that you're in danger even when nothing's wrong? What if it still thinks that you're reliving your parents' divorce or your family crisis even years later? Most people think that trauma is about the moment everything fell apart, but the truth is,

It's also about what your nervous system learned to expect during those years. Chaos, tension, emotional whiplash, walking on eggshells, the list goes on. And your body can keep reacting to that long after you've moved on. And this might explain why you feel anxious for no clear reason, why you maybe shut down when someone raises their voice, or why conflict in relationship feels terrifying even when the other person...

is safe. In this episode, we explore how growing up with divorced parents or a dysfunctional family shapes your nervous system and what to do about it. You'll learn really practical tips that you can use like co-regulation, boundaries, grounding, and naming what's happening inside your body, plus how to integrate all of this with your spiritual life. My guest is Sister Mary Stephen. She's a religious sister with a deep background in training and trauma-informed care, neuroscience, and theology of the body. She grew up in a Catholic home, but it was emotionally unsafe and for years,

She just hit her pain. But after experiencing a ton of healing herself, today she helps others heal by combining body-based tools, therapy, and deep spiritual truth. And so if you've ever wondered, you know, why am I so reactive? Why does my parents' divorce still affect me? Or maybe why doesn't prayer fix the way that I feel? This episode is for you. And with that, here's our conversation.

sister, welcome to the show. great to have you here. And happy birthday. I recently learned that it's your birthday. I hope it's a good one and hope we can be a good part of that. I'm really glad you're here and I'm excited to learn from you alongside my audience. First off, I'm just curious, why is it that you care about helping people heal?

Sister Mary Stephen (02:31)

So good to be here, Joey.

I

would have to say it's very tied into my vocation when I started discerning. In college, I was like, yeah, I just want to help people. My mom would say, you need a career. What are you going to do? What do you want to study? And I was studying psychology. And I'm like, I don't want a career. I just want to help people. And all through religious life, you know, I'm a spiritual mother and I see everyone as like a spiritual son or daughter or brother or sister.

The world needs healing and whatever I learned for healing, I'm always wanting to pass on. So yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (03:24)

So good. Okay. So you saw the need and I love that. And I'm curious what wounds and healing have you personally experienced?

Sister Mary Stephen (03:32)

think most of us come from dysfunctional homes. Our home was quite chaotic. We had a lot of crises in my family. My brother had cancer. My dad has multiple sclerosis. Just like all of us kids, there's four kids, and we were just all over the place. ⁓ my parents dealing with that, there was a lot of fighting going on growing up, especially I remember since ⁓

maybe like fifth grade on, remember a lot of just a lot of fighting and me just going, you know, I up in the eighties, so we were not at home. We, you know, just leave, just go to the friend's house because it was just chaotic. just not having that always wanted that close bonding with the family. But with all that we were going through, it was just really chaotic. And so definitely since I was 14, I've been working on like healing.

Because it usually comes up in your teenage years like, yeah, I'm depressed or things like that. And so even in the monastery, always working on my healing from that.

Joey Pontarelli (04:42)

And I'm curious, were there any particular wounds that obviously the kind of dysfunction you grew up in that impacts you in so many ways, but was there anything in particular that you noticed that you had this particular wound or you at least had this symptom that came out of it, like you said, an emotional problem like depression or something else that you saw like, man, I'm dealing with all these things that are related to my dysfunctional family and I need to heal. Like, was there a moment that you could take me to that was this kind of wake up of like, yeah, I need healing.

Sister Mary Stephen (05:09)

I think it was, I had a conversion when I was 14. I grew up Catholic and we went to mass every Sunday and I wasn't taking it in. I was just thinking, whatever, it's what my mom and dad care about, but I find mass boring and I just want to have fun. But when I was 14, I went to a camp, a youth camp, and just our Lord really showed me his love for me. And then,

It was in that, working in this youth group and just seeing, wow, I need a lot of healing. I need a lot of healing from our Lord. So yeah, I guess it was mainly like depression. Like I had fun as a kid, but when I would sit still and be with myself, I was going, yeah, I'm sad and I'm depressed. And so I think that was my turning point.

Joey Pontarelli (06:05)

Yeah, I can relate with that too. I've never had chronic depression, thankfully, but I've certainly gone through situational depression and anxiety in different cases where something's happening and it's maybe in my family and in the past, especially when I lived at home, I'd feel the weight of it for sure. So I totally relate with you and I think a lot of people even listening right now can relate with us too that especially when you kind of face yourself or slow down a little bit like you described.

A lot of that brokenness catches up with you and it can be a tough place to be. So you had this experience though at camp and that I'm assuming led to kind of deeper experiences. What would you say was like the most helpful healing thing that you experienced maybe in high school or college?

Sister Mary Stephen (06:48)

I She was ⁓ one of the youth leaders. She was about, you know, in her early 20s and she really took me under her wing and she had a young family so I would babysit for her and just hang out at her house because since there was so much chaos at home, I loved to be in other people's houses. And so I just hang out with her and she really helped me to put language to what I was feeling. So that was just transformational.

the love that she showed me and the compassion and just being a friend and mentoring me. And she even said, hey, you need to apply for colleges, go away for college, you know? And so going away to college was very helpful. So she really helped me like move. Cause a lot of times with trauma, we kind of freeze, become small. So she helped me to kind of get out of that and make something, make something of myself. ⁓

Yeah, and was in college that I discovered I had a vocation. So it was just such a blessing to have such a beautiful friend like that.

Joey Pontarelli (07:56)

I it. And I know we're going to get into the particular type of healing that you help people experience and then some transformations. We'll talk about that a little bit later, but I'm curious, why is it so helpful when it comes to healing to be able to just like put things into words? Like it seems so simplistic, maybe even too simplistic to be helpful or effective. So I'm just curious what you've learned there. Like you said, she helped you put things into words. Why, like why, why is that so helpful? Why is that even like validation that comes along with it? So helpful in healing.

Sister Mary Stephen (08:25)

I think because it relates to our nervous system, and I do help people reset their nervous system, when life becomes too much, we could only be in fight or flight or stress mode for so long, and then you reach a point where you just shut down. So I think I was definitely shut down in my high school when I started the youth group with her. I mean, when I was going to youth group with her and she saw that, she saw how shut down I was. So when you're shut down,

You just are kind of a half person and you're just going along and you don't even know really. Like I didn't even know that I was shut down. But when she would ask me questions, like, how do you feel? How are you doing? And I was like, what? Like, I don't know. I don't know how I'm feeling. And she would like just dig it out of me and it helped me. So when you're shut down, you're immobilized. So it helped me to start to mobilize. And part of it is just talking.

and ⁓ learning about what you're actually feeling. And that helps get you out of shutdown and to then you could get into fight or flight. And now I'm angry. I'm angry. Why didn't I have a better family life? And I was angry with my parents. so that may be like anger, it's ugly, but that is a step in the right direction. then once you could start to admit the anger, then you could start to...

let that go and work on that part of your nervous system and get that out of you. And then I woke up. Like when I first started youth group, I was quiet, total wallflower. But that's not me. I'm sanguine, I'm full of life and bubbly. And then like from the first year I was at camp, I was just a wallflower. And the second year at camp, I was like one of the leaders and getting up on stage and

doing a lot of stuff like the skits and just having a lot of fun. And they're like, what happened to Carolyn? My name is Carolyn. And ⁓ so I just came to life, but only through that love and her like helping me to come out of myself, come out of that shutdown.

Joey Pontarelli (10:31)

so good. You mentioned the nervous system and just kind of the role that that plays. If you would give us kind of a one-on-one and a basic explanation of like the nervous system and how that all works.

Sister Mary Stephen (10:39)

Okay, ⁓ great question. So the nervous system, you know, God designed our body, He designed it to help us heal, He wants us to heal, our body wants to feel safe. So our nervous system, when we feel threatened, we don't feel safe. And we go into fight or flight. Or when that's too much, we shut down, like I was saying. So it's built into our system, and it's operated by the vagus nerve.

our vagus nerve starts at our cranial here in our brain and it comes down and it goes to all of our face like when you're shut down you're like

And like, where did, where did Carolyn go?

Joey Pontarelli (11:19)

And for everyone who's only listening, she's like slumping over, her face is kind of like long and drawn and like lifeless. So, okay. Wow.

Sister Mary Stephen (11:27)

Yeah, like where did Carolyn go or where does Sister Me Steven go? So your nervous system shuts you down and when you're sick, your nervous system shuts you down. That's why when you start to get sick, you're like, wow, I feel it. My body is starting to shut down. So your nervous system, you could think about it like the wiring in the walls. Like I have, we have wiring in the walls in the room, your end right now. And trauma could be seen as a rat gets in the wall and chews through the wire. So if a rat chews through the wire and I go to the light switch to turn it on,

It's not going to turn on and I could go to the light switch and come on and maybe if I bang on it or do it really gently or do it real fast. no, cause the answer is not in that light switch. The answer to our trauma is not in our brain. It's in our body. It's in the wiring in our body. We need to go to our body. We store trauma in our body so we can rewire. We can go into the wall and rewire with that rat. So, ⁓ eight through. So trauma is a break.

There's a real break and we need to rewire and we can do that with working with our body. So the answer is there. So I don't know if that helps.

Joey Pontarelli (12:37)

Yeah, no, it makes sense. And the way that's super helpful, and I'm just thinking of something I learned from from a neurobiologist that I've learned of like your nervous system is kind of on a scale where at the top of the scale is like hyper arousal, which is like the most afraid or terrified that you can be. And at the bottom, that's like a 10 out of 10 at the bottom would be like hypo arousal. And that's like a one out of 10 where you're the most

depressed or numb, you can be lifeless like you said. And what he was explaining at least is that you want to be in like the five or six range typically. And that's like proper regulation of your emotion where you feel calm, you feel at peace, but then you feel maybe a little bit of excitement to like tackle life, to, you know, tackle your day. Would you agree with that? Would you tweak that at all? I'm curious if that's a decent explanation of kind of how your nervous system like.

goes up and down and how we, know, regulation, essentially what he was saying, regulating your emotions means bringing you back into that five or six range. And when you get out of, you know, the five or six range, typically that's like dysregulation, which can happen when you're triggered or when, you know, something in life kind of throws you, there's pain, there's winning something like that. Would you agree with that or would you tweak it at all?

Sister Mary Stephen (13:40)

Yeah, that I could I could explain it a little different way, but that's totally that's perfect Joey. And so the fight or flight is up top if you you know, when we go into fight or flight, we're triggered or we actually have a danger that we need to tackle. ⁓ So that's way up there. And then when that becomes too much, we go way down into dorsal vagal shutdown, we're depressed, we're, I just want to lay in bed all day.

So, ⁓ unhealthy nervous system is ping ponging in between those two. You're going way up and then way down, up and down. A healthy nervous system would be more in the middle. We need to go into fight or flight. Like you gotta clean the house before someone comes in, comes over, they're coming over in 10 minutes. Like you are in fight or flight or you have work to do. Sometimes it's okay to go into fight or flight. And can you come back down to being regulated?

Or are you going to bed at night and you're still your mind's going going going and that's where insomnia comes because you are still in fight-and-flight when you're laying in bed and You are able to get yourself back down. So I work with people to get more of a healthy nervous system You're more in the middle and it's the ventral vagal or it's called parasympathetic also where you're calm you're grounded you're your best self and you could

Be relaxed and go to sleep at night or pray or have a good conversation with someone You're not a lot of times you're talking to someone and they're not there They're in their head and they're not really present. So the healthy nervous system you can be present to the person you're with, okay?

Joey Pontarelli (15:22)

That makes so much sense. Gosh, I have so many questions, but I guess one of the things that you had mentioned about like trauma that it's stored in the body and for some people maybe that's new language that they've heard. For others, maybe they're familiar with Bessel van der Kolk and the book The Body Keeps the Score. But for anyone who's not familiar, what does that mean exactly? Do you have an example that can maybe show how the body stores trauma? you're from a divorced or broken family, the holidays can be so stressful and challenging, you know that.

pressure to choose between parents, being reminded of your family's brokenness, especially if you've been living out of the house or at school, and just feeling a bit lost and alone and navigating it all. Thankfully, you're not alone. Our free guide, Five Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family, offers really practical advice that you won't hear anywhere else, a worksheet to plan out your time with your parents, super helpful, and even a copy paste template you can edit for communicating with your parents through messages or even a call. Most of all, the guide helps you feel less alone and more in control when the holidays hit.

You can get the free guide at restoredministry.com slash holidays, or just click the link in the show notes.

Sister Mary Stephen (16:24)

There's

a quote from his book, the body remembers long after the trauma happened. Long after you think you've worked on it, the body still remembers it. So you could even have trauma from when you were a baby, like maybe your mom let you let your cry yourself to sleep too much, too many times. And it gets wired into your body that it's not safe to relax. ⁓ If a baby has a perfect, perfect connection with their mom, they will grow up.

thinking the world is safe. And when the trauma comes, they go, okay, I could get through this because the world is safe. But many of us, we come through early childhood, the world is not safe. And I have to fight, I have to protect myself. And it's wired in your body. if you even just notice your shoulders, how tight are your shoulders? Yeah, how tight your neck and that is stored trauma that stored stress. So when there's a stress, if you think about it, something happens.

Maybe people are fighting in the household and you're like, no, what's gonna happen next? What do you do? You brace. You bring your shoulders up, you're tightening your shoulders, your neck, your back, your hips. You're like protecting your organs. You come in and you're bracing and that bracing gets wired in us and that's why many people have back pain and there's stored anger there. So when...

stress happens, toxic stress or trauma. ⁓ If you didn't get to process it out of your body, you're storing it. And you also know you're storing it because you have triggers, know, something happens. A trigger is a time portal. It's bringing you back to the past. And if you take a little moment to notice when you're triggered what's happening in your body, and if you, when you start to do the work and learn about your body, learn the language of your body,

the wisdom in your body, you'll start to go, whoa, wow, I'm feeling it. I'm feeling it in my heart or my stomach, or ⁓ many people clench at night and they wear guards in their mouth because when we have all that tension in our jaw, that is because there was a time when I couldn't speak, you know, in a dysfunctional family, only one person's allowed to be angry. It's usually not the kid, you know, only one person's allowed.

So you had to, you wanted to say, hey dad, shut up, stop it. But you couldn't, you just had to go, maybe. I'm not allowed to be angry, it's a sin. I'm not allowed to, it's disrespectful or whatever. So we store it until we have tightness, all different places in our body.

Joey Pontarelli (19:07)

No, it's fascinating. And it's something if you guys want to learn more, I know with the Basil Van der Krook book, the body keeps the scores kind of dense, but would you recommend that or is there any other resources that people want to know more about this whole idea that the body source trauma?

Sister Mary Stephen (19:20)

It is pretty dense. When I first read it, before I started taking classes on this and teaching it, I was like, whoa. But you you just push through. Like if you find something a little difficult, just keep reading because he does give a lot of good examples. And there's also Dr. Amy Apigen, she's with Trauma Healing Accelerated. That's where I first started taking classes. She actually just wrote a book, so you could Google her.

So she's a, that's the biology of trauma is her book. So that's a great book to, to read, to understand. She, she brings it more into simple terms.

Joey Pontarelli (19:59)

Great title by the way for that. That's a trauma healing accelerator. I love that. ⁓ one example that came to mind when you were talking about kind of the body keeping the score, maybe it's not a perfect example, but is, you know, kind of an extreme. if a soldier who went to war, so I remember hearing the story of a special operator who came home, I think it was a Navy seal or something. He, you know, it was very vigilant. Like a lot of those guys are a lot of them. Actually, I learned later to have problems with like their cortisol being off the charts. Like they're always in fight or flight mode that they like actually have hormonal problems.

with that. So anyway, this guy comes home and I think he was at like a gas station with like his wife and there was a mechanic shop attached to the gas station and one of the engines like backfired when they were like at the gas station. They were like walking out of the convenience store back to their car. And as soon as he heard that like pop, he took his wife and he like threw her to the ground, you know, thinking that he, there's gunshots and back in the middle East and like, need to protect her and like shield her and then, you know, fight and it hurt her.

And, you know, of course he wasn't intending to hurt her. He was just trying to protect her, but he had that like response to that trigger and his body, his mind was still stuck in, you know, Iraq or Afghanistan or wherever he was. So yeah, so I think it's so interesting to see kind of how, you know, our bodies can just like, that wasn't a conscious thing. That was a subconscious like instinctual reaction that he had. It's not like he sat there and thought, I'm going to throw my wife to the ground to protect her from this engine that's back front. That sounds like a gun. It's like, no, no, no, it sounds like we're at war. So yeah, I'm curious, any comments on?

that.

Sister Mary Stephen (21:25)

Yeah, that is a great one. I know someone also who every night and when he's in bed, he is running in bed during the night. Yeah, because he's still on in combat and that's definitely true. So it's in his body and the beautiful thing about this because it's in our body, we can rewire it. We can process it to we kind of like recreate the story and when it comes up in your body, there is a way.

to tap into the story of it. because when it happened, usually you were powerless, but you could change the story. ⁓ I know this boy, Dr. Peter Levine, who does somatic experiencing, he has a story in one of his books of a little boy who had his tonsils taken out. And after that, he was not the same four year old. And so Peter Levine worked with the family.

And he was tied down to get his tonsils taken out because they had to shoot, put him under or whatever. And it was complete trauma for him. So they recreated the story by putting a teddy bear in the bed and okay, now escape from the hospital. So the teddy bear escaped and then, okay, who's turn next? And the boy was like, I don't want to do it. So mom did it. She escaped and the dad was in the bed and he escaped. And then the little boy was like, it's my turn. And then, he was in the bed and then he escaped like,

before the doctors came and he was running and they all ran and he was so happy. So he rewrote that in his nervous system and then he was fine. He was able to process that trauma. And the beautiful thing is he had, know, his parents were friends with Dr. Peter Levine. We didn't have that when we were growing up. So that story, if he didn't have that, little boy, when he's 20, 30, 40, he's gonna be like, I don't wanna go to the hospital.

Like, ⁓ so whenever we react more strongly to a situation, we know it's cause it's stored in our body. And we, we could still like, you could go back if that happened to you, you could go back and rewrite that.

Joey Pontarelli (23:35)

Well, And one of my friends, Eddie, who came in the podcast, he was saying, he had this great line, said, you know, the past lives in the present. So true. And that's what I hear you saying basically is that unless we kind of convince or show, demonstrate to our brain that this trauma is like finished, it's in the past, it's done, it's closed. Then we can, if triggered, just act out of that like that little boy.

Sister Mary Stephen (23:57)

Right. when I was working with a psychologist, I was taking a class with him and he was saying, okay, you need to bring in safety because you you practice therapy when you're taking classes. You we run online and he said to the guy in class, says, can you tell your little boy that we're now grown up, bring in safety. Just tell him we're now grown up. We're not a...

We're not 10 years old or four years old anymore. And I was just kind of laughing and going, that doesn't work, because that's in your head. We need to actually do it in our body. We need to do the somatic exercises in the body. I mean, if you want, I could do a little exercise to demonstrate.

Joey Pontarelli (24:44)

That would be great. Yeah, I would love that. Let's get into it. ⁓ well, first, what is somatic healing and how is it maybe different from other sorts of healings? Let's maybe set that framework. And then had one other question before we dive into the, ⁓ and I know we've talked a lot about it, but if you can just kind of make some summarize, like this is what somatic healing is, and this is how it differs from, ⁓ other methods of healing.

Sister Mary Stephen (25:06)

Yeah,

totally. So somatic, soma is Greek for body, but it's more than just body, it's to be embodied. So with trauma, we go to our head, because it's more safe to be in our head. So ⁓ we cut ourself, our nervous system does that, cuts our body off, because that's where you feel it. We don't want to feel. So when somatic work is, okay, we are going to slowly and gently start to see what's there.

start to learn your own nervous system. Where am I? Many people don't even know. Am I in fight or flight? Am I shut down? I didn't know. I didn't know where I was. And then when you start to work with your body, you start to learn, okay, I'm always in fight or flight, or I'm shut down, or I'm going between those a lot. I rarely am in that middle state where I'm calm and grounded and present. So we do exercises to learn about

to come into our body, drop from your head down into your body, not that your head's bad, it's just let's focus the attention of your head in your body and also process it. So stress does not just go away magically. Like if you look at deer in the wild, they're being traumatized all the time. And so what happens, they hear something and the deer, they're looking around and you see their ears moving and then they,

They orient to it, they look to the danger where the sounds coming to and they go, oh, it was nothing. It was a bird. And then they shake it off. That's a real embodied thing. So we can actually learn to work with our body to shake it off, get that adrenaline out of you. Cause if you don't process the stress, just keeps building. So I have this little cup here. We only have so much capacity for stress and it just builds. It'll just keep building if you don't process.

keep building and building and building. And then you end up living up here and any little thing sets you off. And that's like the source of probably why my parents would yell at each other because they were living up here and any little thing would set them off and us kids were like, why you yelling at each other over lost keys? know, because that's when it becomes too much people rage or they shut down or they act, they act out.

So we need to process the stress in our body just like that deer that shakes it off working with the body.

Joey Pontarelli (27:33)

So it differs in the sense from other therapies which are more like mind-based. Is that the basic thing?

Sister Mary Stephen (27:39)

is a bottom-up approach. So cognitive behavioral therapy is what most therapists will do right now. Or just talking it through with your friend. You could, ⁓ with trauma, there is actually a break in your brain. So you really need to work with the bottom half of your brain, which is more connected with the body. So if you're just doing cognitive behavioral therapy, you're just up here in your frontal cortex. But the answer to rewiring is in your body.

So we need it's so the bottom up approach is let's start with the body because that's actually where the trauma is stored.

Joey Pontarelli (28:17)

I love it. Okay, so let's get into this. And just before we jump in, some people are thinking, this sounds a little woo woo, this sounds a little new agey. What would you say to someone who's maybe thinking that we're going down that path, which according to what you said, we're not, right?

Sister Mary Stephen (28:31)

Okay, yeah, totally. ⁓ So somatic therapy is a neutral tool, just like massage therapy or even physical therapy. When you Google about massage therapy or physical therapy or somatic, you're gonna have a lot of like, you're gonna see a lot of new age and things like that out there. But because these are neutral tools that are working with the body, it really depends on the therapist. What

the therapist, spirituality is going to shine through. So if your therapist is a new age, it's going to come out. If your therapist does reiki, you you might get a massage with someone doing other things on you. so because it's a neutral tool and it's based on science, it is safe. It's safe for Christians, Catholics, because God, he's really the author of somatic work because

He gave us these tools to work with stress in the body. So it's just working with God's design, totally.

Joey Pontarelli (29:33)

Love it. With that then, now that everyone's not freaking out, let us, ⁓ let's get into it. So yeah, what's this exercise like? This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary.

Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 4.30 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado.

and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Blackstone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it.

Sister Mary Stephen (30:47)

Okay, so I want to first, a good way to get in your body. So we've been talking in our head, so working with our frontal cortex. So let's go ahead and drop into our bodies. And I just invite you, you don't have to do it, just listen and do it later. One easiest way to come into your body is to just move. And so I invite you to do this little exercise, a little silly. I'm gonna have my hands go up and down.

30 times and I will count and then after that and breathe in and out as you're going up and down.

Joey Pontarelli (31:24)

So up and down it's almost like a jumping jack, like you're your hands over your head.

Sister Mary Stephen (31:28)

we're gonna, after 30, we're gonna watch ourself come into our body. So here we go.

And then I invite you to put your hands in your lap. You can close your eyes if that feels safe to you even. And you're just noticing your body. You're coming down. Maybe you feel your heart rates coming up. And just notice your breathing.

Is your breathing a little labored? Are you breathing in your chest or is it deep breathing? You're just noticing. And you feel your feet on the floor.

Maybe you can move your hips even in the chair.

and you're just noticing your body.

And then how do you feel? Like are your shoulders up or are you relaxed? Are they coming down?

And if you notice yourself having a sigh or a yawn or a deep spontaneous breath that's telling you, wow, you're shifting, you're shifting into that middle state of parasympathetic where you're calm, where you're alive and present.

And do you notice any tension in your body? And this is another thing. You could just, and I invite you just to tense up your shoulders. You could even tense your back. I'm clenching my fist and arms and just feel the tension. You're creating all this tension in all your muscles or your upper body and my shoulders are up.

And I'm actually kind of in a fight or flight stance, like I could really fight you right now. And I'm feeling the tension all in my body and we're gonna release it. I invite you to release it very slowly. So just start right now to go ahead and release it. Release those muscles, let them slowly release and get soft. And just let it go, let all that tension go.

And now my shoulders are coming down. And I just got a deep, spontaneous breath. And my shoulders, I've noticed like, wow, my shoulders are even down lower than they were before. And I feel more relaxed. I feel more present. And more myself. And well, that was nice. And just notice your body. Notice how you feel now. So the whole idea is we're focusing.

our attention of our head on our body and getting ourselves in that kind of grounded where you're present and you feel alive.

And another one is we were talking about the vagus nerve which is in charge of your nervous system Just even moving your ears because your vagus nerve is very connected to your ears It's the closest place where you could kind of connect with it. It's very close to the surface of your skin And if you just move your ears like it's circles And you kind of go with it like someone's giving you a massage You don't want to overthink it

Just let your body relax as you're moving that vagus nerve. Because when you stimulate the vagus nerve, it's telling your brain like you're safe.

and it's gonna be okay. I got you. And you could even massage behind your ears, on your neck, because that gets your vagus nerve right under your skull, behind your neck. You kind of just massage it, and you're releasing stress. You're turning off that danger signal in your brain, the amygdala. But yeah, I am safe. And it's gonna be okay.

or even just like putting a hand on your shoulder and feel the tightness. You squeeze that tightness in your shoulders if you have that. Just squeeze it. And then you let it go slowly. I'm slowly letting that grip on my shoulder go. And you could even use language like I got you and it's gonna be okay. You could let go.

I just got a deep spontaneous breath, so I really like my body like that. And I do my other shoulder, I'm just squeezing it. That tightness, I'm squeezing my shoulder there. Just that tight muscle there, trap. And then you let that grip go slowly. And it's gonna be okay, and you can let go. Wow, that felt nice. So that's like a little simple... ⁓

little simple exercise to let things go. And ⁓ if you have any questions, I have one more little one I could do, but maybe you have a thought on.

Joey Pontarelli (37:01)

Yeah, no, it's saying the first thing I was gonna say to anyone. I wasn't participating because sister encouraged me before the show to do it separately because I'm conducting the interview. So I'm in my head and it would be hard for me to switch through. So in case everyone was wondering, but I think sister that's, if anyone's stuck in maybe that fight or flight mode, tense, is that a good time to maybe re-listen to that part of the episode and help them calm down? Like if they can't sleep or I don't know, like.

What you just did was really interesting and it has like such a calming effect. So I'm just curious, like what particular like scenarios would you recommend someone do what you just did and.

Sister Mary Stephen (37:40)

Yes, you could definitely redo that ⁓ when you are tense and definitely before you go to bed because when you go to bed you want to be in that middle state and parasympathetic. That's where you get the most the best sleep, you know, because if you're the fight-or-flight you're gonna have insomnia, shut down. It's not good for your body to be shut down because then you're just gonna wake up really groggy. So definitely doing those exercises and I do have

on my website, a startup kit, where I have three exercises that I go through with people. So that's a great thing, ⁓ a resource. You could do an exercise with me on that too.

Joey Pontarelli (38:20)

No, I love it. And one of the struggles I just remember going through at the end of high school, beginning of college for me was that I would get caught in my head. I would deal with some form of OCD. I was dealing with anxiety. There was a lot happening at that point in my life. And I remember, I think it was the girl I was dating at the time saying something, we always heard that phrase, mind over matter, just kind of mind over matter, push through it or whatever. But that whole idea of like,

body over mind, like get out of your head. Like there's a place for that too. And that was really helpful. That helped me calm down in the midst of that. remember learning a little bit about like grounding exercises. And if you guys aren't familiar, what I'm talking about is like using your senses such as touch to kind of take you out of maybe getting stuck in the loop and a loop in your head or feeling super anxious and kind of toning into like the moment, your environment and

being able to calm your nervous system down. So that was really helpful for me and it sounds like what you just did kind of reminds me of something like that.

Sister Mary Stephen (39:20)

Totally really getting you in your body and calming you down, getting you out of that loop, yeah, totally resonates. That's what this is.

Joey Pontarelli (39:30)

Good

stuff, and I guess we would say too, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that consistent exercise or any sort of movement we would say kind of work towards a similar goal too. Is that right? Because I know when I exercise I feel great afterward. And so is that kind of a similar mechanism?

Sister Mary Stephen (39:47)

Right, exercise is gonna work even with your hormones, getting that cortisol out and giving your whole body message of that you, you're safe. You are not going all in your head. So definitely when you're working with your body, even just taking a walk and getting the sun, being with the trees, the trees give you those ⁓ negative ions that are so healthy for your body and.

So all these systems are connected and so anything that you do to help on a biological level, because if you have a lot going on on a biological level, lot of toxins, even just that puts you in fight or flight. ⁓ but definitely like firefighters, they do a lot of exercise when they're not fighting fires because they're first responders, you know, they have a lot of stress and trauma.

So they're working that out with exercise too.

Joey Pontarelli (40:45)

No, that's so good. Anyway, I love this approach, but you said there was another exercise Did you want to go into that or is it better maybe that people pick that up on your website if they want to do that? It's

Sister Mary Stephen (40:53)

Real quick, think it would be a fun one to do. So whenever you're completely stressed, I'm just backing up a little so you can see. So the stress is built up in our body, all the adrenaline and all our muscles. So if you, I you just to imagine there's a huge stone and that could be your stress. And maybe you're even like super anxious, even a panic attack, you're really feeling it. Just allow.

yourself to feel it in your body. Where are you feeling it? And now let's go ahead and push it. And imagine you're like pushing a huge stone and just go real slow and I invite you to do that. I have my hands at my shoulders and I get there's a huge stone in front of me and you just push real slowly. I'm pushing out forward. I'm going to get rid of that stone. Just push it away.

And maybe it sounds like I'm pushing it on, sweeping it under the carpet. No, I'm working with my body. And it's like a boundary. Like you are not invited in my safe space here. Just push it away. And even if you're like standing, bringing in more movement and when you exercise, you know, you could be lifting weights and just imagine I'm pushing away all that stress and you could push it away, but still hold on to it. No.

Just let it go. Just let it go all the way through and I'm just pushing my arms all the way out and just letting it completely go out of me. then after you do that, even after you exercise, then you sit down and go, okay, like how do I feel? And then come into your body and you kind of ride that release all the way to the end and just let it go.

So when you do it intentionally like that, when you exercise with intention, if you have a lot, and many of us store a lot of stress, that's making it go all the way out your body and out of you like that deer that shakes it off.

Joey Pontarelli (43:04)

Good stuff. And I wanted to mention that, the sympathetic nervous system is the fight or flight mode, or you can be shut down as well, or is, I misunderstand that? And then the parasympathetic is the rest and digest where you're calm and you're able to, yeah, just be without needing to like, yeah, I guess you're just, you're resting. So is that right? The distinction is shut down technically under the sympathetic or what does that fit?

Sister Mary Stephen (43:28)

So there's sympathetic and parasympathetic. And in parasympathetic, you have ventral vagal and dorsal vagal. So the dorsal vagal is you're completely shut down. the ventral vagal, which people also call just parasympathetic. So it's a little confusing. But the more technical term, it's Dr. Steve Porges and the polyvagal theory, is we have sympathetic, which is fight or flight, and parasympathetic.

is your that middle state where you're calm, you're present, and I'm connected, connected to myself, to you, to God. And then dorsal vagal shutdown is the also a part of the parasympathetic. So it's kind of like sympathetic is your engagement to the world. And parasympathetic like I'm going to fight or flight, I'm going to fight you or I'm going to flee. That's or I got to get a lot stuff done. That's my engagement with the world.

And then parasympathetic is me. Like, I'm calm, I'm my best self, or gosh, I really need to shut down. That was a really hard day, and I need a nap today. So I'm gonna shut down, and it's like a healthy shut down. I'm just gonna take a nap, because that was really stressful today. So it's like taking care of yourself, the parasympathetic.

Joey Pontarelli (44:48)

Okay, real talk. you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally, but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people. And it was really helpful for me personally in the guide. He breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make like under eating.

overstressing or focusing too much on the scale and it gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use, you can implement today. And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never going to get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally. want to touch on briefly. we, did a series a little while back called healing sexual broke.

And the reason we did that is because I saw the stat that said from Dr. Carnes, who's an expert on treating sexual addiction, he said that 87 % of people who are struggling with a sexual addiction come from a broken family, what he calls a disengaged family. And ⁓ that is wild to me, like nine, almost nine out of 10. And so curious, like with your approach to healing, how you would understand that and how there need to be healing brought to that compulsion, that addiction.

a little bit of a story. So in my past, that was my way of coping. When I was a kid, after my parents separated and later got divorced, the kind of sexual compulsion, like pornography, masturbation, things like that, that was my way of coping with the pain. And I think a lot of young people, a lot of people in general are there because probably what started was some sort of adaptive response. was some sort of coping mechanism that they had.

which then continued and became so destructive. And so I'm curious, kind of your thoughts on that whole idea and maybe anything that you can offer to someone who's dealing with that to maybe begin to heal.

Sister Mary Stephen (46:37)

love that question and ⁓ I do work with people with addiction and ⁓ sexual addiction too and like let's just take the shame away from that because yeah it's a sin and I think it's a sin that Jesus just forgives so easily because it's so easy for people to fall into that and it's very tied with your nervous system so with trauma and definitely parents splitting up

super traumatizing for kids and all that's surrounding that. We do go to addictions because it works. It's helpful, like whether it's binge eating, binge watching TV or on your phone or the sexual sins, like it works. It's comforting. It brings comfort. It helps you to ⁓ not feel. So with trauma, we have this inability to be present. It's too hard. It's too hard for a kid to deal with all those emotions.

So when we start to work with our nervous system, we are building capacity to be present. so just notice if you do have addiction or friends who have addiction, like be curious, like what happened before you went into that pattern? Like yesterday, I was super stressed at work, say, and then...

It was too much. Like I was in fight or flight all day. I was so stressed. And then I come home and I'm going to shut down. And then when I go to shut down, that parasympathetic dorsal vagal shut down, that's when the temptation comes because it doesn't feel nice. When you go to shut down, you also get depressed. Like, why bother? I'm so done. I don't, I don't even want, sometimes I could go. don't even want to live anymore. We go to,

And then we go to these addictive behaviors, because it helps. It's comforting. In ⁓ my program, I help people to de-stress, to bring it down. So how about, okay, you have a job that's super stressful. Take pauses during the day and process that stress. Do some push-aways, like I was just showing you. And ⁓ process it in your body, get it out of you, so you bring it down. That way you don't get to overwhelm.

Because when you get to that overwhelmed state, it's so easy to ⁓ go to that pattern of the addiction. Because I cannot, I can't be present. It's too hard. And I need to numb out. I need to do something that's comforting.

Joey Pontarelli (49:15)

No, that makes sense. And I know you have a lot more tools that people can use in those sort of situations. And I know one of them is one of your offerings is the somatic pilgrimages. So I'm curious. That's such a unique term phrase. Explain what is that exactly?

Sister Mary Stephen (49:30)

So I ⁓ offer throughout the year somatic pilgrimages and their virtual Zoom classes. And so that's the intro class. And it's a foundational journey. We meet four times a week for an hour for ⁓ a month, like four weeks. So I teach you a new exercise every day. So you're learning these skills of body awareness and where my nervous system's at and all these different tools so that

whatever journey you go on after that, you have these tools to make you feel safe. So many of us do not feel safe and we don't even realize we don't feel safe. And so because we don't even give ourselves time to think, we have all these coping mechanisms and addictions that help us to not feel that, doesn't our body wants to feel safe? And if it doesn't, we will do things and even acting out the ⁓

will give us some form of safety, but it's sad because often those behaviors make you feel bad after and then you don't feel safe again. So it's like a vicious cycle. So we're learning to build safety in our body and that safety gives you space to do ⁓ deeper work. And then, so that's the first journey, getting that safety in the body and learning about your body for one month.

And that gives you the tools to do my eight month program where we only meet once a week and that we still continue doing somatic exercises because we meet for like an hour, 15 minutes and we start with somatic exercises so we really feel safe. And then we touch in to the deeper healing. We're touching into stories, younger parts of us that are coming up that store the trauma, working with those triggers and also a little

IFS, internal family systems, but in a very somatic embodied way because internal family systems can be all in the head. You're just trying to figure it out. But the answer isn't so there. The answer is in your body. It's stored in the body just like that little four year old. He needed to watch his teddy bear escape from the hospital bed and he had to escape. So we're doing things with our body like the push away and there's many tools.

even movement, like I bring a lot of movement, like it's kind of like a dance therapy where just moving your body helps you to process the trauma like exercise.

Joey Pontarelli (52:04)

Okay, so you have multiple programs and yeah, I'm curious like what sort of transformations have you seen in people's lives? So obviously I imagine there's like the immediate transformation of them maybe feeling more calm but I'm curious if there's been any bigger ones that you've seen in their lives or your life and yeah, that's one question. The other one would be like why might this be particularly helpful for someone listening right now who comes from a really dysfunctional or a divorced family?

Sister Mary Stephen (52:29)

Great

question. Yes, I have people, I have therapists who recommend their own clients to come to me, people who have been stuck for like years, like even ⁓ eight years of talk therapy and they're stuck. And so this work has helped them to realize what's going on, like where is it? And so sometimes they have shared with me that, wow, this has been the missing link.

I've been doing therapy for even 30 years and what I did with you in three weeks has just been transformational. I've been able to get off my anxiety meds, they say, and just be normal again and move on with life. And some of them I see the growth, I see them on Zoom, they're completely shut down. And ⁓ after that nine month program, they're like, wow.

they're a completely different person. Like they come to life and they're able, whereas in the beginning they may have disassociated when we're working with younger parts of them in the class and ⁓ they're like, wow, I was able to work with my younger part and not shut down. I was able to do this, do this work and I feel like even with the movement, bringing in movement and ⁓ the dance, it's kind of dance but kind of like just expressing your body. need to

move our body to get it out. They're like, wow, I felt such a release. I've never had such a release. just completely transforming their lives. I've seen so many. Yeah. Thank you, Joey.

Joey Pontarelli (54:06)

I can see how this would be helpful for so many people, but I'm curious in particular for young people who come from divorced or highly dysfunctional families, or maybe mom and dad do stay together, but things are really tense and hard at home. Is there anything you'd say in particular why it would be helpful for them in that situation?

Sister Mary Stephen (54:25)

Yes,

I think in doing this journey, we start to, ⁓ and focusing on your own body and where you're at, you will start to see, wow, what I see in my parents, I have those same problems too. I think when we're young and in the family, the focus is more on them and why can't my parents be better or whatever. But then we start to see when we do this work, we see like, wow, we all have stuff

We all have trauma and this is just my nervous system. It's not because my parents are broken. Like no one's broken, no one needs to be fixed. We just have stress that we need to process. We need to get that cup coming down. And wow, my parents have not done their work and they're just acting out because their cup is full. And it's not, cause I think a lot of the problem is we kind of internalize it, especially like

It's my fault that my parents got divorced. think everyone whose parents are divorced, there's a little kid inside that if I was better, or if, and it's never, it's never the kid's fault. It's just, you know, we were in a broken world and everyone has things that they need to process and our parents weren't taught that. And maybe with me going through this journey,

they will see a change in me and they'll be curious like, yeah, maybe I should do that. I could have compassion on my parents and yeah, maybe they weren't taught this and they have a lot of trauma. So it of like brings down the bar and you start to see like, be more like compassionate and understanding of others and that can go a long way. More peace in the family.

Joey Pontarelli (56:15)

Yeah, no.

Totally, which I'm sure can lead to so many other things because the three buckets of problems we see young people from broken families facing is that they deal with a lot of emotional problems, right? They're dysregulated and they struggle to deal with all those difficult emotions. That often leads them into bad habits, like you said, addictions, compulsions to kind of feel better.

And then that will result in so often relationship struggles where they really struggle to hold down a relationship to have a healthy relationship. And if they go on and get married, they might take that unhealthy relationship, which then becomes a really struggling or broken marriage, which then becomes a weak broken family. And so if you want to change that story, you can, but you need to heal. And this is one way you could do it. So I'm really grateful for the work you're doing sister. And I'm interested to learn more myself and

even get involved if I can. so, ⁓ go through it myself is what I mean. I'm curious, you know, is there anything else you wanted to mention that you offer and then how can people get what it is that you offer like the Pilgrim Regis and other things?

Sister Mary Stephen (57:22)

a website, restorativecatholic.com. so it's funny, it's similar to yours, restored. Good word. So yeah, definitely we need restoration. so you could go on my website and it has the different classes I offer. I also offer one-to-one coaching and you could just go on my website and get paid for a strategy call and I will talk with you.

to see, how could we strategize this and what do you need? So just getting that individual one-on-one is very helpful. And just to get to know me, like, wow, can I work with her and can this benefit me? And seeing how that could play out is so helpful. So I've even had people ask CHAP GPT, like, who should I go to for embodied healing who's faithful?

And Sister Ray Steven comes up. So yeah, and then she booked a call with me and it was great just to talk with someone and to see like, is this right for you? And yeah, so that's the best way. And also I do have the resources, like the startup kit where I have three, like about 25 minute exercises. And if it feels like, yeah, that's helpful, then definitely you're totally welcome.

to come on a somatic pilgrimage or to do just the one-on-one coaching with me.

Joey Pontarelli (58:51)

No, it's awesome. And just to clarify the startup kit and the initial console, are those free at this time? I know maybe they'll change in the future, but the

Sister Mary Stephen (59:00)

The

start up kit is free and the initial coaching is $27.

Joey Pontarelli (59:07)

Okay, that could change in the future everyone. don't, this, if you're listening to this years in the future, don't be surprised if that changes, but okay, good to know. And that totally makes sense. Great sister. So good to have you. And I hope I wish you much success in your work. And we share the same passion to just help people heal and grow and thrive and live life to the fullest. So I wanted to give you the last word.

What final advice or encouragement would you offer to everyone listening, especially maybe a young person who comes from a really broken family, who maybe feels hopeless and really needs to heal, what final encouragement would you give them?

Sister Mary Stephen (59:40)

I think I'd say that, like I said before, really you are not broken and you don't need to be fixed and there's no label we need to put on you. We don't label in this mode of healing that, wow, I'm like everyone else. I have things I need to process and let's just do it. Let's do it together. And then...

You could become your best self, live your best life and break the cycle like you always say, Joey. Totally, we can break the cycle. so it starts with us and we can rewire. There is hope. There is hope, so much

Joey Pontarelli (1:00:25)

That wraps up this episode of this podcast. If this helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CSU who said, you can go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

His Parents Divorce Led Him to Alcoholism: Here's How He Broke Free | Scott Weeman: #161

What if your parents’ divorce, or the chaos you grew up in, didn’t just hurt you emotionally but actually wired you to seek relief through addiction?

This might explain why you feel unsafe for no reason, why you keep numbing out when life gets hard, or why you crave control but end up stuck in the same self-destructive cycles.

In this episode, we explore the deep connection between addiction and family dysfunction, especially how growing up in a chaotic or broken home can make substances, screens, or success feel like your only safe place.

My guest is Scott Weeman. He began drinking at 15. By 21, he was spiraling, binge drinking, hiding vodka bottles, waking up in jail, and living a double life.

Today, he’s an author and the founder of Catholic in Recovery, helping thousands find freedom from alcoholism, lust, and more.

If you’ve ever wondered, “Is this just who I am now?” or “Will I always feel stuck?” this episode is for you.

Visit CatholicinRecovery.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:37)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pannarello. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead built strong, healthy relationships. What if your parents divorced or the chaos that you grew up with didn't just hurt you emotionally, but actually wired you to seek relief through addiction? Then I might explain why you feel unsafe for no reason, why you keep numbing out when life gets hard or why you crave control, but end up stuck in the same self-destructive.

In this episode we explore the deep connection between addiction and family dysfunction, especially how growing up in a chaotic or broken home can make substances, screens, or even success feel like your only safe place. My guest is Scott Wieman. He began drinking at 15 years old, if you can believe that. By 21, he began spiraling, binge drinking, hiding vodka bottles, waking up in jail, and living a double life. Today he's an author and founder of Catholic in Recovery, helping thousands find freedom from alcoholism, lust, and so much more.

If you've ever wondered, is this just who I am or will I always feel this stuck, this episode is for you. Now in this episode, we do talk about God and faith and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Everyone knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. Wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, just listen with an open mind. Even if you take out or skip the God part, you're still going to get a lot from this episode. With that, here's our conversation.

Scott, great to have you in the show, man. Welcome. If you would take me to that moment when you hit rock bottom.

Scott Weeman (02:03)

Thanks Joey, thanks for having me.

Yeah, you know, I recall sitting on a cliff, not like I was going to jump off the cliff, but there was a moment before I got sober in 2011, my girlfriend wanted no more to do with me. She broke up with me in August. My roommate wanted no more to do with me. He had changed the locks on the door and, you know, I was manipulating, deceiving, lying to most people in my life to try to manage consequences. And so I was essentially homeless for a couple of like

like a week or two and was staying at someone's house who I was working with but remember I got a six pack of beer and walked over to the cliffs, lived by Sunset Cliffs in Ocean Beach, San Diego and sitting there with this six pack and thinking to myself that this is gonna run out soon and the only thing that I'm gonna care about when this six pack runs out is that I want more and I don't have the resources to get more and

I don't have a home to live in and I have lost every single relationship that was important to me. And I don't think I'm going to ever find help. And I don't know how I'm going to enjoy life. I know that alcohol and drugs are my problem, but I also kind of, couldn't say this at the time, but they were also the only solution that I had. They were the only way to effectively kind of relieve my mind from the insanity and the chaos and the darkness of the life that was created. Pursuit of alcohol and drugs was ⁓ really at the heart of this.

This, you I mentioned my ex-girlfriend no longer wanted anything to do with me, which was fair. I mean, I was right for her. She was doing what she had to do for herself. And in many ways, that was the best thing that anyone ever did for me. I was, of course, committed to trying to win her back, telling her the right things, but not doing any of right things. And there was this moment, it was on October 8th, 2011, when we had a very codependent relationship. I hadn't graduated college yet, but she was completing a master's degree in social work.

And I was doing whatever I could to stay in her good graces. She asked if I would edit one of her papers. I was happy to oblige. And before I dove into that, I lit up a joint of marijuana and smoked it in my little studio apartment that I had borrowed money from my uncle to get into. And she swang by to say hello as she was going for a run while I was doing some editing. Hadn't even cracked open my laptop, but she had opened up the door, saw me, was almost.

eager to see me for a moment until she smelled the marijuana and then from there she just her face turned to this look of disgust and she looked me in the eyes and said Scott you are absolutely hopeless you're never gonna change and she was saying exactly what I was feeling and thinking at the time and you know by the grace of God the rebound happened two days later where I knew I needed help and then on October well October 9th I made my way to Mission Bay to push my

bike through the heavy sand to the beach cruiser bike, one of the few things I had left in my possession. Called a few close friends from back home, great friends from school, elementary, middle school and high school. And then called my mom and my dad and told them what they already knew, which was that I needed help and that I had a problem with drinking. the next day, October 10th, 2011, I walked into a 12-step recovery meeting, bunch of people who had a recovering from spiritual disease of alcoholism, and they had a solution to my problem.

Joey Pontarelli (05:24)

What a story man. have so many questions, but the first one that comes to mind is like, was driving all that? what gave us a little bit of the backstory that led you to that rock bottom point.

Scott Weeman (05:34)

had

a good childhood, other than the fact that my parents divorced when I was about 10 years old. And, you know, the constant back and forth every week between mom's dad and mom's house and dad's house, which had very different rules and expectations at each and step siblings at each as well. My parents got remarried about two years afterwards. But beyond that, my parents loved me. They did the best they could.

Certainly growing up in northeast Wisconsin, if you do a Google search of the 10 drunkest counties in the United States, you'll see exactly what part of the country I grew up in. Outer Gamy County, Door County, Brown County, etc. Alcohol was just a way that people locally, my family particularly, celebrated or dealt with challenging situations. I really refrained from drinking until I was a junior in high school towards the end of my junior year, 17, was like May of 2002.

Joey Pontarelli (06:05)

Interesting.

Okay, wow.

Scott Weeman (06:25)

and a friend was back home from college. He went to the University of Wisconsin-Madison and two years older than me and invited me to go to a party with him and I was eager to be ingratiated by these older kids who I thought were cool and we walked to the party and had stuffed our cargo shorts with lukewarm beers and I recall walking on the railroad tracks, lived in kind of a rural community in Wisconsin, 30 minutes south of Green Bay and pulling out a

lukewarm bud light, said, Scott, don't think so much about what this is gonna taste like, because it's not gonna taste great at first, but just think about how good it's gonna make you feel. And I enjoyed the way that made me feel. I didn't become an alcoholic after that first sip. I think there were some, certainly some circumstances and situations that were, made it much more likely that I would be an alcoholic, some of that being familial, some of that being just kind of cultural. And ⁓ yeah, I started drinking towards the end.

It's kind of between my junior and senior year. It escalated a little bit into my senior year of high school. I do recall actually bringing a couple of times where I would, or a friend would bring like a Sprite bottle that was half drank and then filled with vodka in it. And maybe that would happen once or twice during my senior year in high school. But I was in sports, played baseball, was in policy debate, very active, very successful in policy debate. Got a full tuition scholarship to a school in New York City, downtown Manhattan, Pace University.

And that was a big change from small town Wisconsin to downtown Manhattan. And immediately even on the orientation visit that took that summer before school started and it connected with people and found those social connections through drinking and drugs. And I don't know that we, maybe someone had some pot or something like that with them that time too. But once I got into school, it was on. I mean, a lot of my friends were very, a bit different from me and just had different kind of growing up experiences.

My roommate was a transfer from Seton Hall University and he immediately began to get into his fake ID selling business and essentially sold fake IDs to most college students living in Manhattan. so getting access to alcohol was not a problem. others who were opportunity to buy and sell drugs was made available and engaged in that. Drinking every day, smoking weed every day became, quickly happened.

was still active in debate school was much less of a priority but you know i began really drinking or getting high every single day multiple times a day and it was really during that freshman year of college that you know i also felt this kind of escape i like i was away from my family i was away from the trying to navigate manage family relationships particularly around my parents you know different lifestyles in different households and things of that nature and i you know i thought that i had this newfound freedom

Unfortunately, I was just becoming a slave to the pursuit of feeling good. I think, you know, whatever made me feel good, alcohol, a variety of different drugs, the online poker boom was happening at the time. I was doing that quite a bit. And, you know, so certainly lustful pursuits as well. And, you know, I was really just losing myself, losing this sense of who I was. Three semesters later, I lost my debate scholarship, moved back home to Wisconsin, really kind of tail between my legs. I had put a lot of

really emphasis, really my identity and how people felt about me and, you know, carried with pride this, you being voted most likely to succeed or most likely to become president and I was failing and I had a hard time didn't know how to how to deal with that. I got two DUIs early on as well. I think when I was 19 and 20 after that second DUI went to treatment for 15 days at a treatment center in ⁓ Northwest Wisconsin.

And that was largely kind of to get my parents off my back. wasn't convinced that I was an alcoholic. I didn't even know that term. Talking to me about alcoholism was like talking to a fish about water. And it was just all around me. I didn't know anybody who was sober, certainly. yeah, just thought I was also too young to be an addict or an alcoholic. I was comparing myself to other people who were my age, who were drinking like I was. Of course, they were able to go to school on Mondays or to work. And I just chased it on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and just...

couldn't deal with the reality today. Every day I told myself, tomorrow's gonna be a different day. Tomorrow's gonna be the day I do something new. Of course, tomorrow never came. yeah, ⁓ so things got progressively worse. After treatment, I stayed sober for about eight months. Really just white-knuckling it though, not really any kind of spiritual alternative or program. I saw a therapist a couple of times. I went to a couple of AA meetings, but thought that it was dark and depressing and just it wasn't for me.

And yeah, so then fell in love with a girl who was from a great Catholic family as well. And she had, she was one of five kids, family, her parents were just a model of what a Catholic family looks like. And this attracted me, of course, coming from a family full of uncertainty and divorce and all the challenges that that involved. I, of course, wasn't willing to do anything that she was doing to get what she had, but I thought that if I just stuck close enough to her and her family, that maybe some spiritual osmosis would take place and I'd

I'd catch what they had and yeah, I'd say that the prayers of her family and her mom were very instrumental and perhaps later one day, you know, me getting sober and returning to our faith. Unfortunately, she and the family didn't get to bear any of that fruit is that, you know, most of the belligerent, dishonest, manipulative behavior ⁓ she was a victim of. And yeah, so when I got sober, I really wanted to win her back. That didn't happen. Spoiler alert.

but it at least drew me into the church and had me doing things that I maybe otherwise wouldn't have done if I didn't have these very human motivations. So that's kind of skipping around a little bit, but yeah, there's nine years from starting to drink at 17 years old to when I got sober at 26 years old. Really lost a lot of my self-esteem, my sense of self, full of shame, fear, resentment. I was a victim. If I had published a book while I was active in my alcoholism, it probably would have.

entitled something like, if you had my life, you'd be an alcoholic too. I was just full of resentment and also just as addicted to playing the victim as I was to any kind of substance or behavior.

Joey Pontarelli (12:34)

What was attractive about playing the victim? why was that something that you gravitated towards? Especially having the success you had. Because you have to fight for those things too. So you had like the hero or the protagonist in you as well. But why did you gravitate towards the victim?

Scott Weeman (12:47)

Yeah, well I found that, I mean, for a long time, and I think this may be the oldest child of D'Vore's parents, I felt that my achievement, like achievement was my way into relationships. And so if I could show you that I was achieving things and ⁓ worthy, I needed to kind of prove my worth. That inherent worth and dignity, I think, was somewhat lost. I think there certainly, I was learning from my parents as well about that maybe...

playing the victim would create some kind of pity from others. Now, I think really at the heart of it was being the victim was my way to rationalize my need for alcohol and drugs. And so I used that as kind of like this self justification that allowed me to kind of maintain or perpetuate my own selfish and unhealthy behavior.

Joey Pontarelli (13:37)

appreciate your honesty there. I know everyone's wondering it. We don't have to talk about this if you don't want to, but did you ever get to make amends or reconcile at all with that past girlfriend or family?

Scott Weeman (13:46)

I did. Yes, the 12 Steps provides a really wonderful pathway toward healing and, you know, internal healing first and coming to form a relationship with God as we refer to Him in 12-step, secular 12-step recovery groups, or higher powers, God as we understood Him. Of course, I came to know that God as being God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and got to know Him through Scripture and sacraments and my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who were helping really carry me during these moments of

renewal. But yes, about a year after I got sober, perhaps just a touch over a year after I got sober, did, was finally at the ninth step where we make amends. In step eight, we made a list of all persons we had harmed and become willing to make amends to them all. And in step nine, made direct amends to such people where, except when to do so would injure them or others. So I had really even, you questioned and with the help of an awesome sponsor who had about 25 years of sobriety and recovery himself.

walked, know, really looked at all of the amends that needed to be made. It kind of made some of the easier amends first and some of the more challenging amends after getting some experience. She was certainly on the challenging amend side. And there's a lot of preparation that went into this as well, recognizing that I was going to need to get honest and asking, you how honest do I be? How much detail should I provide? What was advised to me was that I, you know, share in a general way, but be very open and willing to answer specifics if she asks.

And we even went through the process of preparation. At first, writing a do not send letter, I did this for most of my amends. Like, what do I want to say to this person? Write it in a letter form first, even if I'm making amends face to face with them. And that way I could share that letter with my sponsor, and then he would take out a red pen or a red marker and cross out all the places where I was trying to either justify my bad behavior or blame others or not take responsibility.

and rationalize and all that kind of stuff and that was a really healthy process as well. We even role played what that would look like, know, getting face to face, he playing her and me just kind of practicing. And so we were very thorough about this. And then when the day came where I made amends to her, I wasn't fully honest. And she had asked me a follow up question asking if I had ever cheated on her. And the answer was clearly yes. And the answer that I spoke was no.

And ⁓ she kind of knew that was insincere. I, of course, knew it was insincere. She left that day feeling probably worse than when she had come. I called my sponsor shortly after that as well, told her, I know we had practiced this all, and I just couldn't bring myself to be honest with her and really motivated to win her back. just, yeah. So I had to then call her, scheduled some time to see her the next morning to make amends for the amends that I had made. This was not, this was like the worst.

I did not come through well in this situation. She just made it clear, like, Scott, there's this voice that you have that where you start to rationalize, and I can't stand that voice. I am totally done hearing that voice. And I came clean and told her that I had lied to her the day before and that I'm committed to being honest. And I was devastated, totally devastated when I left there, but I had at least gotten honest.

called my sponsor to tell him that I had completed that and how it went and it didn't go so well. And I was kind of questioning the whole process of recovery. And he just very clearly said, Scott, I hear that you're hurting. And I want to just ask you a few questions. Do you believe in God? Yeah. Do you believe in a God that is all knowing, all loving, and all powerful? Yeah. So what are you worried about? God's going to take care of this and things will work out. Now, I had a really hard time seeing

or even envisioning a happy life without this person who had really become my idol. You know, as a result of pursuing alcohol, drugs, lust, other compulsive behaviors, I had lost a relationship with God and it really empowered her to be my God, my idol. And that's an impossible burden to put on anyone. And just, yeah, it was not long, it wasn't long lasting, so.

but i still had a deep relationship with jesus through the church and i met some great people in the church and really wonderful people in recovery and i'm you even over was able to overcome that's really kind of low moment in my recovery even though i was sober i still felt like i wasn't really living up to what i was called to be.

Joey Pontarelli (18:13)

So good. I appreciate that vulnerability. think sometimes when people hear of the 12 sub programs or being in recovery, there's a lot of misconceptions. I think one of them is probably that once you kind of make that decision, then everything gets better in your life. And it's refreshing to hear that like, no, you still have like crappy days or, you still have struggles. You have conversations that don't go like you want, like this one. And so I think, I think that's refreshing to hear.

I think another barrier I've heard from people I've walked with who've, you know, struggling with addiction saying things like this step of the process of like kind of making amends is probably the biggest barrier for them personally. And so you mentioned that, well, maybe talk about that a little bit. And I'm curious, like that last phrase you mentioned about how the situation where it would maybe cause injury. Yeah. yeah, cause except when doing so would injure them or others.

Scott Weeman (19:03)

So would injure them or others.

Joey Pontarelli (19:06)

I think this is a huge barrier for a lot of people. Let's talk about this a little bit and then that scenario when you make that decision. If you're from a divorced or broken family, the holidays can be so stressful and challenging. You know that. Pressure to choose between parents, being reminded of your family's brokenness, especially if you've been living out of the house or at school, and just feeling a bit lost and alone and navigating it all. Thankfully, you're not alone. Our free guide, Five Tips to Navigate the Holidays in a Broken Family, offers really practical advice that you won't hear anywhere else.

a worksheet to plan out your time with your parents, super helpful, and even a copy paste template you can edit for communicating with your parents through messages or even a call. Most of all, the guide helps you feel less alone and more in control when the holidays hit. You can get the free guide at restoredministry.com slash holidays, or just click the link in the show notes.

Scott Weeman (19:53)

All of this is not done in isolation. mean, I one of greatest gifts of 12-step recovery is having a sponsor who can walk us through the 12 steps and place our hands in the hands of God. I had some awesome sponsors and have awesome sponsors. And they've been very different and have provided what I needed in very different times. So he helped me to really discern what, you know, how to go about doing all this. And trying to do so, trying to do all this by yourself is a fool's errand. It would be

Because like I mentioned, we try to make amends and either don't do it at the right time or don't do it with the thorough honesty that's required. It can do more harm than good. so, first what we did was we made a list of all the persons that I had harmed and this was somewhat easier to do. just took a few weeks prior completed steps four and five. In step four, we make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves and that's really an inventory of the resentments that we're holding.

the fears that we have been guided by and sexual conduct. And the most important part of all that is not just the list of people toward whom we're resentful. Then in the fourth column, we recognize what's my part in either starting or maintaining this resentment. What have I done? And that's really the most important part to look at. So that can create almost the template for that amends list when we get into steps eight and nine. yeah, there were some amends that just weren't appropriate to make.

old girlfriends and things, whereas to ⁓ initiate like a conversation might also do more harm than good. There might be some self-motivation in that. And it's not just to like relieve the monkey off of my back, but the intention is to restore and reconcile relationships. I think of it like the sacrament of confession, where we do a thorough preparation and then make the act of confessing, which in recovery is kind of like step five.

Asking God to remove whatever defects of character stand in the way of serving Him and others, Step 6 and 7. And then doing a penance, as we would call in the church. In recovery, we would refer to that as an amends. But really taking ownership and responsibility for the actions that we've engaged in that have hurt relationships or hurt other people. And also being honest with ourselves that if, you know, is it really, is this for me or is this for the other person if I'm going to pursue to make amends with them?

And yeah, think some people don't get to that point because there is a lot of honesty that's necessary. It can be challenging, but it's also necessary so that I can look other people in the eye and look myself in the eye and just know that I have done what I needed to do to take responsibility and accountability for the things that I've done wrong.

Joey Pontarelli (22:31)

Beautiful. Okay. No, sounds so it sounds like a deeply personal and kind of case by case discernment. And that's why going through a program having a sponsor is so helpful to have

Scott Weeman (22:41)

Also really important not to use that like as rationalization to not make the amends, know, just So so important to be consulting with another person throughout all this the man who saved my life told me that working through the 12 Steps is kind of like kung fu It's like teaching you're doing this on your own would be like teaching yourself kung fu you might get some of like the the moves and such but you're not gonna get the essence of it and You know really need someone to be guiding you through it. I found that to be incredibly beneficial and food

Joey Pontarelli (23:11)

Beautiful. You mentioned the man who saved your life. Who is that?

Scott Weeman (23:15)

His name is Michael Todd and ⁓ he was at the meeting so I mentioned, know, October 8th I had this encounter with my ex-girlfriend. October 9th I made the calls to tell people that I had a problem. Of course, drank myself to bed those two nights. That's just what I did. The next morning, October 10th, I came to this early morning, 7 a.m. AA meeting held at an Episcopal church about two blocks from the beach in Pacific Beach, San Diego. And I recall I got there maybe two minutes before the meeting started.

I was usually sleeping through hangovers at this time, working evening dinner shifts and such at a restaurant. I heard, you know, the meeting was taking place in the second floor of an Episcopal church and kind of an open stairwell to get up to those stairs. And I could hear laughter and camaraderie above in the meeting. And I thought, I've got to be in the wrong place. If these people have any idea what I'm going through, there's no reason for anybody to be laughing. But I hesitantly made my way up there and kind of sat in the back corner where I wouldn't be seen or heard from.

shared during the course of that meeting. Afterwards, we got around in a circle, put our arms around each other's shoulders, and prayed the Lord's Prayer. One of the few prayers that I had remembered from my childhood, growing up nominally Catholic, I didn't have, you know, kind of felt like that prayer is, this feeling of feeling like I was at home, like I had found my people. I didn't have a ton of time to sit with that and process that as immediately afterwards, a man darted across the room, looked me in the eye, and said, I know exactly how you feel. You don't ever have to drink again.

And he invited me to go get coffee with him, not, what's your schedule look like later this week or ⁓ next weekend look like. like right now, let's go get coffee. The stranger who I just met said, let's go, let's go get coffee and talk about this. And so we did. And we sat at the coffee shop for about two hours and share with him what was going on in my life. And he said, all right, well, let's do this again tomorrow. Meet me back at the meeting at seven o'clock. We'll go at seven AM. We'll go.

to the meeting and then we'll get coffee afterwards. And if you've got a big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, bring that with you. and if you've got a Bible, bring that with you as well. And if you ⁓ feel the urge to drink between now and then, give me a call and I'll be happy to help. And so we did that. We made that a routine every morning, 7 a.m. AA meeting and then sat at the coffee shop for a couple hours. He kind of learned quickly that he had me held hostage because I had burned most bridges in my life. ⁓ we would read through the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous and it's also

referred to different scripture verses in the Bible. One day he held up both, the big book in one hand, the Bible in the other. He said, this book, the Bible, is for people who don't want to go to hell, and this book, the big book, is for people who have been there and have no interest in ever going back. And that really, for me, opened the gateway to this life of faith and kind of got me into the church. Of course, some of that motivation was to win back my ex-girlfriend, but, you know, I

was very blessed also that there was a local young adult community that was very active meeting on Wednesday nights. We had dipped our toes there in there, the Lent prior, while I was still with my ex-girlfriend. So I had met a couple of people. Actually, I called the guy who was leading this, guy named Brock, who's today one of my best friends, because I had gotten his number. And I said, hey, Brock, I don't know if you remember me, but my name's Scott. was at the Bible study during Lent. So you're still leading that Bible study on Wednesday nights? This was like Wednesday morning.

day three of sobriety for me. And he said, yeah, come on by. You know, we're here every Wednesday. So he made my way there. I felt like a total imposter and phony, full of shame and assuming that all these people here have it all figured out. They're walking saints that have not made any mistakes. And I was soon wrong about that. I was a little nervous about some social awkwardness, which in any kind of Catholic young adult group, you're going to have a little bit of that.

Yeah, so I've made my way to the church through this really active and great young adult community, then became an usher, volunteered to become an usher at Sunday Mass, 9 a.m. Mass every Sunday. was partly I was learning from recovery the value and importance of service and commitment, and I thought this would help me just to be accountable to getting to Mass every weekend, which was not a routine of mine ever in life. And so, ⁓ yeah, I tried to apply what I was learning in 12-step recovery groups to my life in the church, and that was quite fruitful.

Joey Pontarelli (27:29)

Beautiful. again, thanks for sharing so fondly. I think for anyone listening right now who maybe is in that spot where they know they need help, but there's a lot of fears, there's a lot holding them back from, for example, reaching out to someone like you or your organization, getting in a meeting, a program. What are some of maybe those most common fears and therefore the mistakes that they make that keep them stuck longer?

Scott Weeman (27:54)

Yeah, would, I mean, boil that down in general to, I think it's a fear of suffering. Father Jacques Philippe in his book, Interior Freedom, does a really great job of contrasting the difference between actual suffering and the fear of suffering, whereas he notes the actual suffering can be redemptive. It has, you know, it can humble us, it can make us more reliant upon God and the people who are close to us, and however fear of suffering, there are no redemptive qualities. It just...

puts us into a place where our options are often forgotten, we make very irrational decisions, and really close ourself up to God. And so I think a lot of that is just for, and this is my experience as well, fear of suffering. I had learned early on that certain, that behaviors and substances could keep me from suffering. I mean, they were also the source of my suffering, but for a little while they were also the solution to my fear of suffering. So drinking or getting high.

or using pornography and masturbation or gambling or even eating behaviors can be a way to kind of numb my feelings so that I don't feel those feelings. And I was running from feelings for ⁓ several years. And alcohol and drugs were very effective at that. Whereas I would wake up with all sorts of feelings and then kind of begin just the day. I mean, a typical day for me would look like I wake up in the morning. This was before I...

lost my day job, but I would wake up in the morning and tell myself, today's gonna be a new day. You know, I'm gonna do something different today and, you know, get up, get dressed, feel like crap, drive to work. Then by about 10 or noon, I would be caffeinated and hydrated enough where I would then in some way tell myself, ⁓ maybe that was a little bit of an overreaction this morning. And I just, you then I was just obsessed, the mental obsession.

I couldn't wait to get that ⁓ feeling, get that drink, that first drink of the day, because that would be my escape from all of the fears that were in my head, the anxiety, the depression, the negative thoughts that I had about myself and the world. That was really the only solution that I had to relieve myself from the insanity that was going on in here. And so then I would, on my way home, stop at a liquor store, buy a bottle of Gatorade and a bottle of vodka.

Chug about half the Gatorade sitting in my car in the parking lot. Poured a bunch of the vodka into the Gatorade bottle so that I would have a drink for my drive home. Because I couldn't wait the eight minutes that it took me to get home before having that first drink. That's how powerful it was and how attached I was to it. And it was my source of relief. Of course, it was a very bad source of relief. I needed to find more different sources. So I would just say that the person who is suffering today...

If you're honest with yourself, if you allow yourself to be honest with yourself, which I struggled with, it was really hard for me to be honest with myself. My problems were everybody else's problems. My solution was found in alcohol and drugs and other compulsive behaviors and substances. But I also couldn't see how, I couldn't envision a different life. I was so afraid of the suffering that would come, the suffering that was taking place in my mind that I was trying to escape from it every single day.

And I just want to inform the person that is struggling today and is running from those obsessive thoughts, ⁓ maybe even those core negative beliefs that we that we think about ourselves and about the world and our relationship with God and others. You know, sometimes the worst thing that can happen to us can end up being the best thing that could happen to us. ⁓ And we usually it's you know, we were usually entering recovery on a losing streak. I've yet to find really one person who has gotten started their recovery.

on a winning streak, but they just thought, well, you know, I think today's gonna be the right day to get sober. Usually it's by ⁓ experiencing the natural consequences of our actions. And you know, a lot of times in families and in other relationships, it can be hard for the ⁓ person who is the quote unquote identified patient in the family to experience the natural consequences of their behaviors because others, parents, spouse, kids,

siblings are kind of going in and ⁓ softening that ⁓ blow. you ⁓ know, so therefore it's oftentimes family members who are most eager for this person to get sober because they have experienced a lot of the consequences and have in fact kind of shielded others, ⁓ shielded the person who is struggling from realizing the natural consequences of their behavior. So

I think it's a very nuanced and challenging thing, but oftentimes family members, if a listener has a parent or a spouse or a sibling or a child who is struggling with addiction, that's oftentimes the pathway toward help is let's, you you've experienced these consequences, but it's not your battle to fight. You need to learn how to take care of yourself so that the person who you love can be empowered to make positive changes in their lives with the help of God and others.

maybe family members, sometimes there's a humility required to maybe recognize that the person who's gonna help this loved one of mine is gonna be some stranger, some anonymous stranger, like Michael was to me and others have been to me as well.

Joey Pontarelli (33:02)

So good. No, it's such a powerful lesson that it's a hard thing to just face yourself. That's what I hear you saying. Then the first part, it's like that alone takes an act of courage. It's a difficult thing to do. You know, I remember when I was stuck just in lust and similar to, you know, pornography, masturbation, acting out in that way. It was, yeah, like you, lie to other people, you deceive other people, but you lie to yourself and you deceive yourself just like you said so well. And so.

you know, maybe that's like a great challenge. Like just be honest to yourself, like tell the truth, even if it's ugly, even if it's something that's really difficult to do. I think that's a powerful lesson and a difficult.

Scott Weeman (33:38)

Yeah, there's a saying in 12-Step Recovery that we're as sick as our secrets. And so the raw honesty that we engage in in a 12-Step Recovery meeting is very inspiring to hear of really what's going on in other people's lives and for them just to be honest about this and really an outlet to find once we share it, the burden of it is lightened.

I was bottling everything in, you know, from all of the ways that I felt about my parents' divorce to the challenges that I was having in life and, of course, trying to present myself as though I've got it all together. But yeah, I was lying to myself just more than I was lying to anyone else. In fact, you know, when I had pushed my bike through the heavy sand in Mission Bay and called my best friends and my parents about what was really going on, that wasn't even so much for them to hear it.

But it was for me to say it. Like that was, you know, there was so much power in that. And even in recovery meetings, you know, as we're sharing stuff, it's kind of like, you know, we're sharing it for others to hear, but it's also just really important for me to hear. It's important for me to hear, my name is Scott and I'm an alcoholic. I have a friend, dear friend, who I met in the young adult community in San Diego a couple of years after I'd gotten sober. So he didn't see any of the wreckage, but he just knew me in recovery. And I remember a phone call we had at one time and he asked me, said, Scott, I know people who are alcoholics.

I don't think you're one of them. Are you sure? Are you sure you're an alcoholic? And so we'll dust and you probably know, you know, those people are probably active in their alcoholism. You've never seen me take a drink, but I'm very capable of it. And, and I really just kind of said, you know, the, the only person that I need to convince that I'm an alcoholic is myself. As long as I am convinced that I'm an alcoholic, then we're going to be okay. I don't need to convince anyone else. spent a lot of time convincing other people and myself that I wasn't one. And that didn't do me a whole lot of good. And ⁓ yeah, so.

I think it's just important that we are honest with ourselves, with God, with other people. it takes, you know, we got to learn how to do that. I had to relearn how to be honest, of course, as evidenced by the failed attempt at making amends with my ex-girlfriend.

Joey Pontarelli (35:39)

Wow, so good. I wanna go to the situation described where someone's trying to help someone else who's going through this and they could see so clearly that they're struggling. But I think you hit on an important point. How does someone know they're an alcoholic or an addict of some sort, whether it's with sex, gambling, other substances? How do you, and I hear the whole subjective part of it, that totally makes sense, but I'm curious if there's any signs or symptoms that someone could use to maybe say, huh.

I thought I just enjoyed drinking a lot or I thought that this was normal behavior, but now I'm thinking maybe it's not.

Scott Weeman (36:11)

something

that everybody needs to come to on their own and there are a variety of ways. I'll give you a clinical definition here in a moment. I'll also note that we have assessments on our website, CatholicinRecovery.com, where if you're struggling with alcohol, drugs, lust, food, or a family member impacted by a loved one's addiction, we have some kind of questions and assessments that will help to...

I'm going to say diagnosed, but that's not really a diagnosis. It's just to assess, do I have a problem? Do I need to take a deeper look at this? For the most part, if someone is taking an assessment asking if they need help, they probably need help, or if alcohol is a problem. Normal drinkers or users of substances and behaviors aren't taking assessments about whether they have a problem. I have taken plenty in my life. clinically, would say that oftentimes the traits of addiction.

And I don't care really if you'd use the term addiction. Some people don't like that term. And I should also note, I was meaning to note this too. You know, I say my name is, if I'm in a meeting, I'll say, my name's Scott, I'm an alcoholic. Or, my name's Scott, I'm an addict and an alcoholic. Should be very clear, I do not define myself by my alcoholism or my addiction, but rather I define myself as a beloved son of God. I find my identity in that. And that is at the foundation of everything in my life, is being a beloved son of God.

And also, when I say my name is Scott, I'm an addict and an alcoholic, that can be a means that first it's important for me to hear it because I need to hear it on a regular basis and not forget. I've got this built-in forgetter that can recall the euphoric memories but can oftentimes forget the painful things that have happened. you know, Michael who saved my life would say, you know, that it's a blessing. It's why women have more than one children or more than one child, that built-in forgetter.

Also something that we need to be very mindful of, of just being honest. And it's helpful to be around people who are new to recovery to remember what it was like when I got here, not wanting to ever go back. So if there are consequences of our behaviors, and those might come in a variety of ways, they might be emotional consequences, this feeling of shame and guilt and lost esteem, anxiety, depression, jitters, certainly spiritual consequences, trying to fill the...

God-shaped hole in our hearts with all things that are not of God. know, familial consequences, relationship consequences, lost job or education consequences and such. You know, those things, if we're honest with ourselves, if we have a problem, we can usually point back to our alcoholism, drug addiction, food-related addictions, whether it's compulsive overeating or restricted eating, pornography, lust and sexual addiction, whatever it might be. And then also that it takes this, you know, this other component to it is this

idea around tolerance that it requires the more of the same substance to achieve the same desired results or in a behavioral addiction it would be kind of more extreme forms of that behavior in order to achieve the same result we build a tolerance to it and need more in order to in order to meet that i would say also if you're thinking about it now i really like alcoholics anonymous or other groups will really respect one's free will if you walk into an a meeting

They're not going to tell you, sit down, you're an alcoholic, you need to listen to this. And they're not going to try to convince you that you're an alcoholic. In fact, a lot of wisdom, there's a lot of wisdom in this idea that, if you don't think you're an alcoholic, why don't you go out and try some controlled drinking for 30 days? And if you can control yourself and keep to the number of drinks that you're going to tell yourself to and don't drink when you're going to tell yourself not to, then you may not be an alcoholic. But if that's a challenge and you can't...

keep to your limits or control your drinking, then come on back, we'll be here and we're here for you. It's noted in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous that the obsession of every problem drinker is that he or she can both control their drinking or limit their drinking and enjoy their drinking. And for me, those two things were mutually exclusive. If I was controlling my drinking, I wasn't enjoying it. And if I was enjoying my drinking, I was not controlling it.

Yeah, so we gotta come to that conclusion ourselves. If people in your lives are telling you that you might have a problem, they're probably not just saying that for any reason, but ⁓ people who we trust, who are a part of our lives, might be the ones to recognize that maybe there's a problem, maybe this needs to be taken a look at. If you have a problem, you're probably gonna react negatively to that and deny it. Of course, denial is a really ⁓ big aspect. Denial, shame, isolation, fear, resentment, those...

components are typically found in anyone struggling with any kind of either substance or behavior related addiction.

Joey Pontarelli (40:46)

This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 430 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that.

horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado, and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary.

or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Black Zone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it. I think that just this whole lesson that it's hurting you and you might not even see it is just profound and important. And I heard the quote once that hurt people hurt themselves most. And I think there's like so much truth to that. So it's kind of, you know, we need to see ourselves in this light of like, no, like you're sick, I'm sick, I need help. There's a problem.

it's hurting me to come to that point. And that's a humbling spot to be, but it makes so much sense that that would be the path to freedom. it's so, I mean, yeah, I'm sure it's so scary to even admit that itself and then let alone reach out for help and then go to like a meeting where you're showing your face and people might recognize you. And it's like all these fears that come to the surface when you're trying to change the way you live. And I think one of the things I was going to mention too is I've heard it said that

So many people just repeat the same 30 days or six months of their lives for their entire lifetime. And so, you one of the invitations I would say to anyone listening, watching would be, do you want to try something new? And why might you want to try something new? You could always go back. It's always going to be waiting for you there, but why might you want to try something new?

Scott Weeman (42:57)

I would just add a few things here. think that the magic of what happens in recovery fellowships is, know, we have those which you just outlined, that fear and like, how am I ever going to come to actually talking about this thing that's been killing me that I've been hiding from for so long. And the magic that I found in recovery is that, you know, we bring that thing, that stuff, and we expect it to be received as, you know, judgmental or, you know, shame and

But instead of being met with judgment and shame, we're met with love and mercy and people say, keep coming back. Like that, that for me was incredibly moving and motivating and was very different from the way that I was otherwise being, it was expecting to be received. The man, Michael, would often say to me, similar vein to what you were just expressing, he said, I'm not okay and you're not okay and that's okay. And he said, actually don't, ⁓ if I ask you how you're doing, Scott, please do not tell me that you're doing fine.

Please don't use that word when I'm asking you. I've got too many people who one day have told me that they're fine and the next day I found out that they had killed themselves. so we just bring it to me like it's as it is. He said, out there in the world, we lead with our strengths and here we lead with our weaknesses. And in weakness there is unity and in unity there is victory. And so I mean it was all counter cultural to what I was, counter to what I was just conditioned to do. In fact, early recovery, I just kind of also said,

You know, I'm just going to listen and do what these people tell me to do. That way, if it doesn't work out, I'll just blame them for it not working out. Now, in my case, it did work out and I had nothing to blame anyone for, but that was also a little bit of a manifestation of that victim mentality that I had. just following those directions of the people who are there. And said, also, never underestimate your ability to help the addict or alcoholic who still suffers. I found a lot of purpose and joy in that.

Joey Pontarelli (44:50)

You did. Why do you care so much about this? You've dedicated your life. You've put so much work into helping people who were where you were. Why do you care so much?

Scott Weeman (45:00)

People have saved my life and I am just trying to give back a fraction of what I've received. And it also helps me stay sober and close to God. I mean, I think that every best, the best gifts that we have in life can only be kept if we're willing to give them away. And so I've gotten, I mean, I know firsthand what it's like to suffer with an addiction and the ⁓ toll that it takes on individual lives and on families and on communities and

even on our church. And so I have, yeah, just set out to help those people who have suffered and are suffering. I'm not the one to speak about prevention. That's like, I'm the last person to be speaking about addiction prevention. But to those who have fallen in the well, I am eager to reach my hand down and help pull them up as people have pulled me out of that dark well that I lived in for a long time.

And it's incredible. mean, the ability to see the light come on in other people's eyes and to see them start to get honest with themselves and others, to see families return to form, that is an experience that I want more and more of every single day. And yeah, I get to witness God through the individuals and families who find freedom, who were in a place of desperation. So yeah, that I think is just a call that I've had and this was not in my plan. I mean, I

I was supposed to be successful in college and be successful in debate and then parlay that into some career in politics or ⁓ law or maybe be a sports agent or something like that. ⁓ yeah, I believe that God has given me the experience and the dark past and not to shut the door on it, but to allow that to be an asset, probably the greatest asset I have to stay committed and connected to God and to my brothers and sisters.

a great asset to share with other people who are still suffering.

Joey Pontarelli (46:55)

I love it. One of the things you mentioned, ⁓ unwanted sexual behavior and how that that's something you guys help people with treat. One of the crazy stats, which I'm sure you've heard is from Dr. Patrick Carnes for everyone listening, who's an expert on sexual compulsion addiction. He found that 87 % of people who struggle with the sexual addiction come from a broken family, what he calls a disengaged family, which is absolutely mind blowing to me. Have you seen similar data or anecdotally that

a lot of the people who end up struggling with addiction come from really dysfunctional or divorced families? ⁓

Scott Weeman (47:28)

Yes.

I question though, I mean, at the same time though, I know people who are, you know, suffer from addiction who come from great families. Right. And none of us are immune from the potential effects and dangers of addictions. And I think that if we're honest, a lot of us experience all sorts of dysfunction within our families, some of it, of course, much greater than others. Right. I think that for those, you know, impacted by divorce.

The ⁓ separation of family is a great tragedy. I liken families to starting quarterbacks. This may not land for every listener, but they say if you've got two starting quarterbacks, do you even really have one? And I say if you've got two families, do you even really have one? Because I think that the family unit is like, my mom, whose parents did not get divorced, she has an intact family unit. My dad.

came from a family of dysfunction where his dad left him early on in life and a lot of tragedy has come from that. His sister died of a drug overdose and challenges with food and identity and in a lot of ways some of the same patterns have repeated themselves in my dad's life. So yeah, think that certainly the traumas that we experience as children and the challenges, if we don't have something or someone that we have a secure attachment to,

and can find connection and ⁓ a place of safety with, then it's going to be much more likely that we're going to turn to behaviors and substances to make us feel good. Because those primary caretakers who provide a secure relationship do provide also the outlet and model how we can self-soothe without having to rely upon external behaviors or substances to help us feel better. And that learning how to self-soothe in very healthy ways, either through

exercise or prayer or surrender or honest conversations and such. mean, think that just that puts someone in a much greater position to be able to not fall prey to compulsive behaviors and substances that can be tempting as outlets of reprieve. mean, for me, alcohol and drugs did for me what I could not do for myself. And of course, they also came with, you they

promised a lot and didn't come through on all those promises. And in fact, it turned out wanted to take everything from me. And so I needed to find a new solution that wasn't going to turn on me as alcohol and drugs and lust and other behaviors did.

Joey Pontarelli (49:57)

Okay, real talk, if you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people and it was really helpful for me personally. In the guide, he breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make like under eating, over stressing, or focusing too much on the scale and he gives really simple, practical tips that you could actually use that you can implement today.

And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally. No, that's good advice. And yeah, I think sometimes it's hard to see when you're maybe stuck in a compulsion, but there's so much in life that can give you like a natural high that can make you happy. In fact, there was a bunch of research they did at Harvard that basically said your happiness is more or less.

Determined by the strength of your social connections which is kind of a nerdy way to say like how good your relationships are and I the guy who did the research and wrote the book the happiness advantage Sean Acre I think is the name might be butchering that but ⁓ He actually left Harvard and moved on the same street as his sister and his parents to just like practice what he was preaching

And, ⁓ and there's some beauty in that. I think, you know, I think it always goes hand in hand when you're stuck in a life of deceit and addiction and compulsion, numbing, escape. You're so lonely, you're so isolated. And there's something beautiful that comes about when you're able to experience like a real honest, good relationship and go out in nature and experience like, you know, an adventure there or.

travel somewhere and not need to rely on substances and whatever other behavior. There's something really good and beautiful about that that I think is totally being missed.

Scott Weeman (51:44)

and these things, these unnatural things that get us high, whether it's food, compulsive eating behaviors, mostly around flour and sugar, or course lust or alcohol, drugs. Marijuana, legalized in many states throughout the United States now has been long thought of as a non-addictive substance. I would argue with that for a long, time, that there are very harmful effects and potential for addiction.

But using that as an example, marijuana use on a regular basis kind of just discolors our lives. And especially when we're not under the influence. And a lot of these other things, numb, are the natural experiences that we have, whether behavior or substance. And so even something like the enjoyment of a ripe fruit can be just a gift from God, a pleasurable gift from God that it experiences. But if we are inundating ourselves with these like

know, feel-good drugs, lust behaviors, or whatever it might be. It can be very hard to almost appreciate those very subtle, pleasurable gifts from God because our minds are so focused on this need, I need this substance or this behavior. It becomes my greatest need and source of comfort because I can't rely on God or other people to meet my needs, so I've got to turn to something else.

Joey Pontarelli (53:04)

Totally, I love that you mentioned that. It's just like how, yeah, like you said, a meal itself can be so good and beautiful and refreshing and the taste is amazing. If you've ever had a good steak, it's like, wow, this is so good. But you're right, those super stimulants like porn or drinking drugs really drain the life. It's kind of ironic. It drains the life out of those naturally good things and trains our brains to just seek those super stimulants. I mean, what I'm hearing you say is like,

You do need to go through a detox period in order to experience that joy again. Otherwise you can't like they don't compare. Yes.

Scott Weeman (53:39)

Exactly. I hardly even see the miracles of God when we are so self-centered.

Joey Pontarelli (53:45)

So good man, A few final questions. I'm just curious if there's anything else you would add, especially given our audience about how maybe your parents' divorce impacted you and contributed to your struggle with addiction. You've already talked about it a bit, but I'm just curious if there's anything you would add.

Scott Weeman (54:00)

Yeah, I think that a lot of it was just this escape. was seeking, you know, I didn't trust God or other people to meet my needs, and so I sought an escape through alcohol, drugs, lust, gambling, food at times, internet and technology still at times. And so that's, yeah, that really at the crux of it. And that might manifest differently for different people, but I think a lot of it is often the same. I think really the thing that I wanted just to...

What I've been reflecting on quite a bit as a father and a husband, father of three kids, seven, five, and three going on four years old, is, you know, and also coming to meet my wife. My wife comes from a great family, parents are together, and you know, even as we were pursuing that relationship, you know, I was sober.

several, you know, couple years into my sobriety and active in my church life and, you know, even feeling a little bit of that shame of not, you know, bringing a background of like a solid family and, you know, but just grateful that she was able to kind of receive that and love me for who I was at the time. But now I think sometimes too raising our kids, I mean, we just kind of go back. I mean, our experience is what we reference and so.

you there's sometimes where I can get a little bit stuck still in resentment and I'm so grateful for the 12 steps in our Catholic faith. Just two ways, parts of my life that help invite me into something new every day. But I can get all wrapped up in, know, what I'm trying to do is trying to give my kids an experience with family that I did not have. I'm sure yours is the same, Joey, having the blessing of meeting you and your family and...

Like sometimes that can be a challenge. It can be really hard. I can even get sometimes resentful that I wasn't given this, but I'm working really hard to give this to my kids. Not in an envious kind of way, but just like I can go back to this victim mentality and also not referencing or no, you know, like, so I've got to just be very careful. And I'm so grateful though to, because our family and my kids are kind of fascinated. They're at this age now where they're very fascinated with their, my parents' divorce. They're asking questions and things.

I've learned how to even communicate with my kids about the divorce. At first, I was kind of like, well, why don't you go ask grandma, my mom, who was the one that instituted it or initiated it and kind of put it on the spot. This was not the right thing to say or do. They did not follow up and do that, by the way, but just I learned that it's probably important that I control the messaging with my kids around what had actually happened. And my mom has gone through a lot of...

reconciliation and seeking forgiveness and has come to her faith in ways and you know a lot of my resentment toward her has been, we've worked that out and very grateful for those opportunities. But sometimes they'll even ask like you know we've got to be, say often, mom and dad will not get divorced, we don't believe in divorce, even if we don't like each other we're always going to be together and because they're, you know, they're like are you guys going to get divorced or...

It just brings up conversations that I just wish weren't a part of the family, but I also get it. There are kids and they're curious and it's outside of the norm, so they're asking questions about it. I like to see it as really a gift to be able to give my kids a family and that stability that they can rely and count on, mom and dad being together no matter what. Even just being able to share my recovery with them. They know the work that I do. They've even found

a jar of my recovery tokens one day about maybe eight to ten months ago in my closet. Wow, daddy's got treasure, all these bronze tokens that commemorate different recovery milestones. So even be able to introduce to them how I've come into relationship with God and know God through my recovery and what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. You that's got to make that age appropriate, but still has been a huge gift to be able to.

just kind of reassure our kids that mom and dad will be together and then invite them to participate in my recovery, which I have but a daily reprieve based on the maintenance of my spiritual condition. I'm not cured as an alcoholic or an addict, but get to live today.

Joey Pontarelli (58:01)

Before we close down, I just wanted to make sure to touch on this because we talked about it before. People who want to help someone who's struggling with an addiction. what are maybe the top one or two mistakes they make and then what is the better right way to help someone?

Scott Weeman (58:13)

I would strongly encourage, just from an attitude standpoint of perceiving or engaging with them as if they are a sick person. A sick person, like they have a physical illness. They have a spiritual illness and have in many ways lost their capacity to say no, which does not mean that they're not accountable for their bad behavior or responsible for their actions, but the will to...

not drink or use drugs or eat compulsively or lust or gamble has been taken from them or is no longer there in the way that their loved one has. And so just to treat them as you would a sick friend. I think one of the challenges I mentioned, one of the things that people do wrong is they try to soften the blow of the consequences. And so, you know, we'll try to, you know, make sure, make that car payment so that the car is not repossessed or make that

mortgage payments because they're you know whatever might happen or bail someone out of jail or not you know make sure that they don't get in trouble or cover up for them because honestly we think of that my gosh like that would be the worst thing that could happen to them. ⁓ It may also be the best thing that could happen to them is allowing them to experience the natural consequences of their behaviors and be empowered to do something different. What you can do I think is helpful is to share from a place of humility.

and maybe even recognize like I don't have, I don't struggle with this problem, but I do struggle with this and this and this and even just kind of providing some exposure, exposing yourself and you know, kind of letting someone into what's really going on in your life can be helpful for them to get honest about what's really going on in their life. Because you know, they have been treated probably as the quote unquote identified patient in the family.

And so everyone's almost identity has become rallied around helping that person. Or maybe if it's like a child, for instance, and ⁓ other children might be resentful at mom and dad because they're giving this identified patient more attention than they're getting. it's just a lot of messiness. The whole family is impacted. And so I would strongly encourage, if it's a family member, to also try to find recovery yourself. If you, a healed person who goes back into a wounded family system,

It makes it very hard for that healed person to stay well because in a lot of ways that family system is kind of set to have that identified patient. when the identified patient gets well, other family members are not sure what to do because their identity is somewhat been formed on helping this person. And so that's, know, there's a lot of kind of deeper, I would say subconscious psychology there, but I've seen that play out so many times. There's, you know, families want to maintain the sense of homeostasis and it can be very hard to change.

within a wounded family system. And so if your loved one is struggling, find a group like Al-Anon or Es-Anon or other groups. Catholic in Recovery has a variety of different meetings and resources for family members or loved ones, friends of an addict, alcoholic, food addict, you name it. And yeah, start to recover yourself. And this can be a pathway toward surrender in new life and trust and faith and...

all of the things that can be beautiful fruits of the twelve steps and just surrendering and finding freedom through our Lord.

Joey Pontarelli (1:01:32)

stuff man, appreciate that and if people want to learn more about you and what you offer, maybe give us a little bit of a list of what you guys do offer you mentioned a little bit and how people can get that.

Scott Weeman (1:01:42)

Catholicinrecovery.com is our website. You find there all sorts of different resources. I published several books. My first book, The Twelve Steps in the Sacraments, A Catholic Journey Through Recovery, published by Ave Maria Press. It's kind of the first book that I would encourage starting with. We've also published the Catholic in Recovery Workbook, which is a sacramental guide through the twelve steps, integrating wisdom from saints, scripture, catechism, and of course taking one through the twelve steps.

and then we most recently published the Recovery Rosary, are meditations for those impacted by addiction, compulsions, and unhealthy attachments. We have a variety of resources free on our website, blog articles, and assessments that I mentioned before to help discern if this is a problem and what can be done about it. We have events taking place, monthly webinars, and ⁓ a virtual recovery summit that's going to be taking place on Friday, September 26th.

Yeah, a variety of things. And then we have a ⁓ digital resource platform called CIR Plus where we walk through your first 90 days of recovery and have a host of videos, video modules, courses, resources, webinar recordings.

community forum to connect with others in recovery through the lens of Catholic faith as well as daily reflections that reflect upon daily mass readings and another person who's right doing a saint of the day reflections as well. We just launched this the Catholic in recovery app, CIR app, so that those resources can also be can be accessed through through your phone on a mobile app. Other retreats and events and things of that nature taking place. Got a lot of good stuff going on.

Catholicinrecovery.com, can find more about that and either begin your recovery journey or if you're in recovery already and you're active in a secular 12-step recovery group, we invite you to kind of integrate your faith into that, integrate Catholic faith into that process. We're not here to replace AA or SA or NA or OA or Al-Anon or all of the different 12-step groups that could go on and on, but really to be a supplement to those groups and or to be a bridge between.

12-step recovery in the Catholic Church.

Joey Pontarelli (1:03:48)

Beautiful man. Just want to give you the last word, Ben. What final advice, encouragement would you offer to everyone listening right now, especially someone who is stuck in an addiction and feels hopeless?

Scott Weeman (1:03:58)

I would say that the cost and the price of salvation is honesty. And we're promised a banquet with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And the cost to get there is for us to be honest with Him, with others, and most importantly with ourselves. And so whatever kind of humility might need to be found, and many of us in recovery find humility first through humiliation. But whatever it takes to get right-sized in order to surrender,

and admit that I can't do this on my own, I need help, would encourage you to find people who don't have any kind of affiliation to your family, your work, your maybe even church community, but who know exactly what you've gone through and have found a solution, a solution to be free from that addiction, compulsion, or unhealthy attachment, freedom from those addictions so that we are free to love, serve, and know God, our neighbors, and ourselves.

And so I know, I totally get it. It seems like the worst thing that could ever possibly happen is for other people to know how much pain and how much challenge you're in. And the only way out of that pain and struggle and suffering and challenge that you're currently in, that enslavement, is by sharing with other people what's really going on. That seems incredibly scary, but I promise you that the fruits and the benefits from it will far outweigh the ⁓ difficulty and the challenge and the humility or maybe even humiliation.

that can be found by just letting people know what's really going on. doesn't have to be everyone. You don't need to take out a billboard to say that you are an addict and in need of help. you know, ask God in prayer how to go about doing this and then find people who can be the eyes and the arms and the feet of our Lord. Just as Micah was to me, I'll say to you, you're not alone. I know exactly how you feel. You don't ever have to drink or use drugs or eat compulsively or lust or gamble. Again.

God will make that happen, will allow you, but He also respects your free will and when you're ready, He'll show up. He may show up before you're ready to.

Joey Pontarelli (1:06:02)

That wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. closing, I was remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help and keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#152: The 3 Ways to Find Meaning in Suffering | Jack Beers

So many of us from divorced or dysfunctional families never learned how to deal with pain and suffering in a healthy way. As a result, we usually either numb the pain or get stuck in bitterness. 

But what if you could not only learn how to navigate pain in a healthy way, but actually draw meaning from your pain and emerge stronger? That’s what we discuss in this episode, plus:

• The shocking diagnosis Jack received at 11—and how it rewired his entire future

• Why suffering always pushes you into one of three paths (and how only one leads to freedom)

• The 3 ways to find meaning in suffering and the obstacles that prevent it

If you’re suffering, perhaps because of your parents’ divorce or the breakdown of your family, this episode is for you.

Get Jack’s Course or FREE Class: RISE: Drawing Meaning from Suffering Through the Lens of St. John Paul II, Victor Frankl and Jesus

Book a FREE Mentorship Session with Jack

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide, The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

Get Joey’s Book or FREE chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey (00:44)

Welcome to the Restored Podcast. I'm Joey Ponnarelli. If you come from a divorced or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges, and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Jack Beers. Jack has actually been on the podcast before. He's the founder of the Catholic Mentor. On top of over a decade of experience as a speaker and leader in ministry, Jack is a certified mentor through the Catholic Psych Institute, which basically means he's trained to walk with a company.

people who are going through a lot of hard things in life, through storms in life, through an integration of sound psychology and authentic Catholic anthropology. The certification was developed and led by Dr. Greg Batara, who's been on the podcast as well. Jack lives in Cincinnati with his wife and their three children. The truth is that so many of us who come from divorced or dysfunctional families never learned how to deal with pain and suffering in life in a healthy way. And as a result, we usually fall into numbing our pain or we get stuck in bitterness. But

What if, what if you can not only learn how to navigate your pain in healthy ways, but actually draw meaning from your suffering and emerge even stronger? That's what we discussed in this episode, plus the shocking diagnosis that Jack received at 11 years old and how it rewired his entire future, why suffering always pushes you into one of three paths and how only one leads to freedom. We talk about why we often fall into numbing our pain and the three ways to find meaning in suffering and how to overcome the obstacles that prevent it.

And finally, Jack offers a new resource to help you find meaning in your suffering. So if you're suffering, if you're going through pain right now, perhaps because of your parents divorced or the breakdown of your family, this episode is for you. Now in this episode, we do talk about God and faith, that if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. This is not a strictly religious podcast, everyone knows that. So wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you would be this, just listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip the God parts, you're still gonna benefit from this episode. And with that, here's our

Jack, welcome back to the show, great to have

Jack (02:38)

So good to be with you again, Joey.

Joey (02:40)

This topic is really near and to my heart. And because I think so many of us have gone through life without really receiving any training, formation, any sort of guidance on how to handle pain and suffering in life well, not to mention how to maybe draw meaning from it, how to draw some goodness from it. And what I've seen, especially in my own life and the lives of the young people that we work with, is that so often we respond to pain in really unhealthy, destructive ways.

just to cope with it, just to kind of numb ourselves. And so I'm curious, like, why are you so passionate about helping people draw meaning from suffering and navigating this whole area of like pain?

Jack (03:13)

Yeah, I think we talked a little bit about this the first time that I was here, but I was diagnosed when I was 11 years old with Crohn's disease and the doctors gave dark prognosis. You won't be much taller than five feet, you won't be able to go away to school, you won't be able to hold down a job, you'll have three hospital stays a year every year until you die and your life expectancy is pretty low. And the road to proving that prognosis wrong was extraordinarily difficult.

a lot of suffering, lot of physical suffering, a lot of emotional suffering, being ostracized from other people, but also suffering of the will. In order for me to get healthy, I had to adhere to a really intense diet. This food regimen was 12 foods total, including spices. So, salt is on the list of 12. It was 12. I ate a variation of the same three meals every day for 12 years.

a lot of suffering in that. But when I got to the other side, when I graduated college and I'm six feet tall and I have a job lined up and I had one hospital stay in the 12 years since I had been diagnosed and fully healthy, in remission, living a normal life, I got to that day, I got to that graduation and there was so much personal satisfaction. And I remember feeling just like so much joy and so much

so much meaning and it contrasting with a number of people in my life, in particular, as somebody who I had been close to who had died of a heroin overdose, that it was so clear to me that everybody suffers. It's universal. Like the old phrases that the only guarantees in life are death and taxes. It's like, no, there's another guarantee. That guarantee is that you will suffer and that suffering, you'll either respond to it by drawing meaning out of it.

by it totally breaking you and destroying you, or you'll dive so far into numbing agents. And there's so many different numbing agents, work, drugs, alcohol, sex, now social media and your phone. There's so many numbing agents. Those are the three paths that you can take. There's not a fourth path, there's not 10 options, there's not 50 options, there's three. You can repress it through numbing, it can destroy you and turn you into a bitter person, or you can get better.

One of the phrases I like to use is like, when suffering comes, you can get bitter or better. Like that really is the pathway. And I didn't feel like there was anything special about me. I still don't feel like there's anything special about me, right? Like I don't necessarily have some sort of extra human capacity for suffering or whatever. there isn't necessarily something that makes me an outlier from other people. And so I wanted to reconstruct what happened. Like what did happen?

How did I get from being 11 and just having this horrible prognosis to the last 10 years of my life, total remission, total normalcy, able to do everything that a normal human person would be? How did I get there? And is there a way to duplicate it? And so I just, really wanted to pay forward some of the gifts that had been given to me to other people, because everybody suffers and you actually do have the ability and the capacity to make the most of it.

Joey (06:37)

Now this is again, just really close to my heart. I actually have a talk that I give called ⁓ Better Not Bitter. Yeah, yeah, no, because it's just so important for all of us. Whenever I give the talk, I feel like I'm speaking to myself and everyone else gets to listen. I need to this stuff again and again, because I'm no expert on this stuff, but it's just been a lot of lessons over the years that have been helpful in navigating suffering, because I handled it so poorly so many times. like, okay, this has to be a better way to do this. But I want to stay there a little bit with like,

Jack (06:44)

Really? didn't know that.

Joey (07:06)

Why we handle it poorly. Yeah, why do we handle it so poorly? Obviously like it's really attractive to just binge on social. It's attractive to, you know, fall into like binging on sex or porn or whatever to just numb ourselves. But I'm curious, like what's underneath all of that? Like what are we looking for in those like kind of empty pursuits?

Jack (07:26)

One of it is just escaping, right? When you're confronting something dark and you're uncertain about how things are going to go, you're uncertain about how things are going to change, at a certain point, you want to stop having to confront that thing. Or if you're, let's say you're younger and you just don't have the capacity for it, you can't articulate what's happening to you, right? Like you can't even articulate the emotions. One of the most important jobs of a parent is that when, you know, your three-year-old is throwing a tantrum, that you name what's happening.

You're like, what you feel right now is frustration. You are frustrated. And these are your options in how you can handle being frustrated, right? And so when you suffer, it's so disorienting. It's almost like you come back to that state of like, I don't know what's happening. It's difficult to really orient my life and say, I know where north is, I know where south is. Like it's very disorienting. And so you just, you wanna step out of it. You want to walk away from it.

⁓ And until you have a real sense that there's a pathway forward, you would rather stay distanced from the mess than have it knock you on your butt and you stay on your butt or even try to get up and go forward. One of the things that's really fascinating is when a storm comes in the animal world, there's only one animal that like turns toward the storm and it's the buffalo. Like everybody else, their instinct is to take shelter or to try to outrun the storm, but the buffalo is like,

The shortest distance between me and calm, between me and peace, between me and sun is actually walking into it. And let me turn toward the storm, let me walk into it. And so we're the opposite of the buffalo. Like we're, our natural instinct is to hide, is to run. And it's that flight, or freeze mechanism. And what we don't realize is we have the capacity to be buffalo. Like we can actually turn toward the storm and we can actually walk through it and come out to the other side.

Joey (09:18)

Love that. Love that. So I want to dive into this. Then how does someone draw meaning from suffering? How do we navigate this in a healthier way?

Jack (09:26)

Yeah, so yeah, let's dive into what Viktor Frankl calls the three paths to meaning and we can do that. And if we have a chance to, I'd also like to talk about the obstacles to actually pursuing these three paths because there are serious obstacles to doing that as well. But the three paths are really important and they're accessible to everyone at every time. And here's how I know this. They've been developed by Viktor Frankl, Jewish psychologist who formulated these three paths to meaning.

in the context of being in Auschwitz in a concentration camp and then reapplying it in other contexts in the development of a form of psychology called logotherapy. So what I'll share is tried and tested and tried and tested in the worst of human circumstances. So this is like as raw and as real as we can get to no matter where you are.

As long as you have your mental faculties, you can follow these three paths to drawing meaning from your suffering. The first is in relationship. So Victor Frankl, in his suffering and in his pain, he experienced despair, he experienced a sense of meaningless into what was happening. And instead of absorbing the meaninglessness, instead of absorbing the pain, he actually leveraged his imagination. And he leveraged his imagination to reconnect

with an experience of love. And so he would imagine his wife's face. He'd be walking in what would largely be considered a death march. And he would, in his mind's eye, imagine the love that he experienced from his wife. And love is the highest form of the human experience. And it is the highest form of relational connection. And the reality of connecting with love gave him the inner tools to endure the intensity of the moment. So that's

That's the first one. it's not everybody maybe is sitting there being like, I've encountered love. And if that's the case, like the other option that Viktor Frankl talks about is encountering beauty. Like if your world is so dark and difficult and you're like, I can't even think of a single experience of being loved, go watch a sunrise, go see something or seek something that is beautiful. And Frankl talks about how when you encounter something beautiful that is outside of yourself,

you are actually drawn from outside of your pain and you can look at your pain and you can see your pain with compassion and understanding, but you can also feel at that point in time a desire that will emerge to press on, to keep going, to keep fighting the fight that you're trying to make the most of whatever is in front of you. so, Frankl was on this first step is like,

Even when things get as dark as they can be, the sun still rises in the morning and you can still go see something beautiful that will draw out the best in you. So I want to pause at the first one. I don't want to just necessarily go through all three because I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, on even your own experience of beauty and love and how that maybe has impacted your journey.

Joey (12:36)

Yeah, no, no, thanks for teaching on all this is so good. And one of the things that has hit me always is that just how healing and comforting love is overall. And even like, like you said, maybe someone doesn't have like a romantic partner, a boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse, but even in my friendships with other guys, it's like that was incredibly like comforting and helpful to just be in their presence and not even to the extent that we were like talking about really difficult things that would come up at times, but it wasn't a constant like flow of like,

therapy. It was really just being in the presence, doing life together and really challenging each other to like be, you know, better men, to be virtuous men, not just, you know, maybe playing sports or video games together. There was like a bigger purpose, which I was really blessed with in high school to have those guys. So I could definitely see that there. And then when it comes to beauty, I remember just dealing with, you know, a lot of the kind of emotional turmoil and pain that followed my parents' ⁓ split and eventual divorce.

And just how, yeah, exactly what you said, how comforting it was to just watch the sunset, to listen to beautiful music, to eat good food, to just go on adventures with friends, eventually travel. That became such an amazing outlet for me. So I'm tracking it.

Jack (13:45)

Healing,

right? When you go travel, there's a healing component to new things and wonder and seeing that the world is big. My thing was I would go outside, especially in the winter on a clear night, and I would look up and I would just watch my breath move to the stars. And there was something so grounding about that. Like, I'm a guy, I'm not like, I'm gonna go seek beauty, you know? But that's what I was doing. was like, I need to know that there's something bigger happening than just me.

And love, yes, I don't just mean romantic love. I mean agape love or philia love, brotherly love, friendship love. Like an encounter with someone who tells you, like, I love you. One of the things that draws meaning for me out of this is when I work one-on-one with people who have obsessive-compulsive parts or even obsessive-compulsive desire or disorder, they will say things that maybe sound like irrational or whatever. Like I'm going to...

I'm afraid I won't get my car. I'm afraid of getting in my car because if I get my car, I'm going to run someone over. And the natural tendency is to say to them, you're not going to run anyone over. Just get in the car. You can do this. I'll show you. Everything's going to be fine. And it's actually the exact opposite of what you want to do. You don't want to reassure them through logic. You actually want to enter into the pain with them and say, even if that happens, even if you run someone over, you're not separated from love.

you will not do anything that separates you from love. And when I'm working with people, I'm specifically in those instances talking about the love of God. And there's a reason why God is such an important component of healthy therapy. Like it's a grounding experience for people to be able to be like, yes, even if this worst case scenario happens, like even if my parents get divorced or even if I never talk to my dad again, I'm not outside of the love of, I'm not outside of love. I'm not outside of the reach of love.

Even if I do this thing and my whole life crumbles like I'm not outside of it, it gives hope and it creates a context for actually drawing meaning from the suffering and the pain and people who have obsessive compulsive thoughts and ruminations and scrupulosities. mean, they're in serious pain a lot of the time and that's how we draw meaning. Wow.

Joey (15:57)

No, I love all this. I'd love to go deeper into the third point. What was that one?

Jack (16:01)

Okay, so number two actually is self-gift. Yep, so number one is relationships with love and with beauty. Number two is self-gift. So John Paul the Great actually talks about this, that as human beings, we don't just have a vocation, we are a vocation. And our existence as a human being, we are meant to be a self-gift to other people. That's our purpose in life, is to make the invisible God visible.

Joey (16:06)

I see, ⁓

Jack (16:30)

by being a self-gift. And he points to Jesus being really the only figure, like wisdom, guru, spiritual figure, that doesn't say the path to happiness is self-possession or self-mastery for its own sake. He's the only one who says, self-possess yourself, know thyself so you can give thyself. And Viktor Frankl, one of the things that he says in order to draw meaning out of suffering when you're in the context of suffering is that when you suffer, it's self-absorbing and self-defeating.

So if you can get outside of self by thinking of another person, deciding that, you know what, my friend is having a tough day or they have a big job interview, I'm gonna surprise them with coffee. That doing that, making yourself a gift, thinking of another, doing something selfless shows you that you don't have to be consumed or broken by your pain. You can still be a gift to the world. And that, in that context, and the context of suffering is tremendously

St. John Paul II talks about like, that's why Jesus gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan. Because man can't find himself except by making of his life a gift. And suffering, seeing the suffering of another draws love out from you. So even when you're suffering, when you see the suffering of another person, if you allow yourself to engage in that, it will actually draw out the best in you. It will draw out compassion, empathy, generosity, and then you'll see that

You're not broken by your suffering. You're not incapacitated by it. You actually still have the faculties of love and you still have the faculties that you need in order to be a gift. And even more so, if that person knows you're suffering, the gift you give them will have a tenfold impact. They'll be like, my gosh, I know that you're going through this really hard thing and you still thought of me before my job interview? Wow, right? Wow, it's incredible. So that's the second one, self-gift.

And then the third one is probably Frankl's most famous. know, he talked about how as long as we have our mental faculties, the last of human freedoms is choosing your attitude in any given circumstance. And your attitude in response to life can actually draw meaning from it. ⁓ So there's a really viral video that went out by Jocko Willick. And he went through this litany of things that he was, he's a Navy SEAL and he was a commander and he was in charge and

and people would come to him with all their problems. And he started developing this attitude where he would, someone would come up to him and be like, you know, we're out of ammunition over here. And he'd be like, good, good. That means we get to exercise our creativity or whatever it is that he would do. And he was like, I developed this attitude of whether good fortune or ill fortune comes my way, I'm going to respond with, this is for my highest good. Whatever it is, this is coming to me and it can be used for my highest good.

And I get to choose, I choose whether this tends for my highest good or it tends for my destruction. I choose. So he developed this attitude and you can see this across, you know, across the spectrum of people who make the most of their lives through difficult experiences. One of my favorites is Joan of Arc. Joan of Arc was persecuted largely for her faith after she had just saved France from being taken over by England. And so she's persecuted.

And during the persecution, people were like, you know, if you keep down this path, they're going to kill you. And she's like, I'm not afraid. I was born to do this. And I like, I put this over my kid's wall. I'll send you the pic, I'll send you the picture of this, but I had someone come in and paint and paint this picture and put words right above where my kids sleep. And it says, I'm not afraid. I was born to do this. And I call it our family motto. Cause I'm like, if I know it sounds dramatic, like sometimes it's bringing a bazooka to a fist fight, but if

If you get into a context where you're surprised by a test at school and you say, I'm not afraid, I was born to do this, or you realize that you like this girl and you're afraid to go tell her that you like her, I'm not afraid, I was born to do this, whatever this is, rejection, acceptance, boyfriend, ostracization, I was born to do this, they'll live an incredible life, incredible, incredible life, and there's literally nothing that will stop them. They will have a deeply meaningful life.

So those are the three, ⁓ its relationship with love and beauty, its self gift, and then its attitude.

Joey (20:57)

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I love this and we'll definitely make sure to link to that video by Jaco. I am. Yeah, it's a good one. I love that. And it's cool to see too, cause he's not like a deeply religious guy, but you know, there's a lot of even human wisdom in that approach of like, you know, something good can come from this. Not, not all is lost when things don't go our way. And, and you know, through the video, he, talks about specific examples. So definitely a great video. We'll link to that. Thank you for bringing that up. And the other thing I wanted to touch on briefly was

That advice to kind of look outside of your pain, look beyond your pain, look to someone else who's maybe going through something hard and helping them, was really transformative for me. I remember in high school, one of my mentors encouraging me to do that. And it helped so much. I wanted to kind of maybe get your advice on this one thing though. Sometimes I've gotten maybe a little bit of pushback on this or heard the objection that, but we can't always just focus outside of ourselves and focus on other people. There is perhaps a way to escape.

from your pain in an unhealthy way by just focusing on others outside of you. So what's that balance, I'm curious, between like sometimes you need to tend to your wounds, but other times, like you're saying, we have to look beyond our pain ⁓ because there is healing in doing that itself.

Jack (22:44)

So what's great about this question is this is one of the obstacles to drawing meaning from suffering. So the two biggest ones, and there are many, the first one is how you view your life. Do you view your life as something that were you made on purpose? If you were made on purpose for a purpose, you are going to go searching for the meaning and you are going to be willing to endure the dark night before the sun rises. You're gonna be willing to do it because there's

there's a perspective in your mind and in your heart that like you're here to do something meaningful. And it's not necessarily like, ⁓ I'm going to cure cancer. I'm going to do something and go viral. And we know whatever it is that, that is currently most attractive in the world. It might, it might simply be like for me, I got healthy and there's nothing more meaningful than because I got healthy, my kids are in the world. Like there's nothing more meaningful to me than thinking about that. Like,

If I had given up, they wouldn't be alive. I wouldn't know my son's smile. And there's a mystery to meaning in that it works backwards. It has a redeeming quality to it. That while you're going through it, it seems dark and it seems heavy. And when you get to a certain place in your life, you're almost forced to be grateful for it. Because if anything else had been different, you wouldn't get to where you've gotten.

Just like despair works backwards and even some of the pleasure and the joy that you experienced during the time of your trials, it can get taken from you if it leads you to a place of bitterness. If it leads you to a place of getting better, it works backwards. And there's tremendous mysterious meaning that comes from it of like looking back and being, I did make the most of that. And because I made the choices that I made, I'm here now. So that's one of the obstacles. The other obstacle

is just validating the fact that you're in pain. John Paul II says this, and I think it's so counterintuitive for people who are of faith and people who are not of faith. Because you'll go to a funeral in a Christian context and you'll hear people say things like, don't worry about it, they're in a better place. All is well, they're in a better place. And you contrast that with Jesus who knew he was going to resurrect Lazarus, being at the tomb of Lazarus minutes before he resurrected him.

weeping with Martha and Mary validating their emotional experience and their pain for the sake of validating their pain. And Jesus basically saying, resurrect after validating. Even Jesus, like if you look at the life of Jesus as someone who is a great person to model your life after, as someone who's best way to live. Like Jesus validated his own emotions in the Garden of Gethsemane. Like, Father, take this away from me. Jesus' sweat, blood.

because of how anxious he felt and he acknowledged the pain, he acknowledged the fear, he acknowledged his desire of not wanting to suffer and not wanting to go through that. And then because his feelings didn't rule his life, he still made the choice to do the thing he was called to do and the resurrection came from that. And so the obstacle oftentimes can be for us that we don't actually confront the brutal reality of our pain. It's like your dad cheated on your mom. Were you not worth it for him to stay faithful?

You know, like that's confront the brutal reality of that. That hurts. That stings. That's awful. That's heartbreaking. That's terrible. Those feelings don't change your calling and who you're made to be. But in order for us to get there, our first step, our first step toward healing and redemption and resurrection is staring that pain in the face and acknowledging it. Like this is terrible. I'm not okay. Doesn't mean I have to wallow in it and I get to ignore pain in other people.

doesn't mean I get to be absorbed by it. But if I don't acknowledge it, the door to the rest of your life is hard to open. Do you think that answers the question, or do you think it creates more mystery?

Joey (26:39)

No, that makes a ton of sense. remind me then the first obstacle is just how you view your life or would you phrase that a little bit differently?

Jack (26:45)

Yeah,

so I talk about it like this. When I was five years old, I was hit by a car and I flew 20 feet in the air. I landed on my head. Like everybody thought I was dead. And that happened at like two o'clock in the afternoon. At 2 a.m., I'm in my bed at home. Severe concussion, sprained neck, bruises all over my body, but no issues. No internal bleeding, no broken bones, no brain damage, nothing. And so for like three years straight, everybody was just like...

It's a miracle, kid. There's gotta be some reason why somebody was looking out for you. There's gotta be. Ever since that moment occurred, I have felt like I'm here on purpose. Before I ever really considered God or had a sense that there was a creator or anything, I just lived in this emotional and spiritual space of there's some purpose to my life. I was given a gift to stay on this earth and be alive, and I need to pay that gift back. And that, when the news hit that

I was sick and that my life might be over, there was a part of me that was like, no, no, I didn't survive that just to be crushed by this. There's something else going on here and I'm gonna try to make the most of this thing. It's that view on life, that view on self, that view on what it means to be human, that changes everything because if you don't believe that, if we just play that out, if it's like I'm here at random, then suffering is random, then obstacles are random and

Who cares if you make the most of it or not? And the reality is the rest of the world cares. Like your potential future kids care, you know? The person that you're meant to help a year from now cares. Like if you go through something, here, I want to say this to you too. ⁓ Sorry if I'm rambling here, but it just, it popped into my head. There's something really mysterious that St. Paul says. St. Paul says that Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was perfect. It's flawless. It was perfect. And

and we can make up for what's lacking in Christ's suffering. And it's like, how do you make sense of those two things? They seem like they're opposites. How do you make sense of them? And John Paul II, he says something so important, and if we believe this, it changes everything. He's like, Jesus' sacrifice was perfect, and there was nothing lacking in it whatsoever. But, but, our ability to relate to Jesus is made easier through the witness of other people. So Jesus is a man

who never married. There's a gap for a woman who has a miscarriage to be able to connect her suffering with Jesus' suffering. And that's bridged by another woman who also went through the same thing, who has found meaning in her suffering, who has found a deeper connection with God and the people around her through her suffering, who is now turning around and talking to this mother over here and giving her hope and making up for what is lacking in the space between where you are and where you...

where you wanna be. And it's the same thing for us. Like when you suffer, when you're going through something difficult, like exactly what you're doing with this podcast, Joey, right? Like if you had never made the most of the suffering that you went through when your parents divorced, you never would have created the podcast. You never would have turned around and lent a helping hand to other people. And how many people would have been worse off because you didn't create this podcast that gives people hope at restoration and healing, right? And so when you're in the mess, if you feel like your life has meaning and has inherent purpose,

you can actually look forward into the future and be like one day I'm gonna get here and I'm gonna turn around and help people like me and that'll be enough. Like that's the type of doors that can be open to you.

Joey (30:20)

That's

good, that's helpful. And I'm curious, I'm eager to hear the other obstacles.

Jack (30:25)

Yeah, so another obstacle is why does God allow suffering? Like, why does suffering exist at all? And another way of looking at this is like the problem of evil. So great minds like Nietzsche, you know, he's a brilliant man, deep philosopher, and he's nihilistic. He essentially believes that there is no real meaning to life, that all there is is a will to power. And he concluded that like all life is is suffering and the best you can do is find a way to pleasure.

Right? Like he did not believe that God existed primarily because of the existence of suffering. And John Paul II, I'm just going to use him. I'm going to stand on his shoulders because he is so compelling on this. He walks us through this in a really powerful way, whether you believe in God or don't believe in God. The wisdom from this is really meaningful. He says it's natural as a human being when you suffer to ask why. He goes as far as to say, as God expects us to ask him.

Why am I suffering with a mind full of dismay and anxiety? God expects us to do that. He doesn't condone us. He doesn't judge us. He doesn't get upset with us. He's actually literally waiting for us to go to him and say, why am I suffering with a mind full of dismay and anxiety? So you unexpectedly lose your spouse. You get a cancer diagnosis. You tear your meniscus. Your car is broken into. You unjustly lose your job. You may say, why is this happening to me? And John Paul II says,

God expects you to go to him as that being your first reaction and say, with a mindful of dismay and anxiety, why? Why? And he said, like, when suffering happens, we're uncomfortable with the uncertainty that exists. Like, why? I'm a twin. Why did I get Crohn's and my twin sister didn't? Right? Why did that happen? You know, why couldn't I have been born to parents who stay together? Why couldn't I have existed and they stayed together? Like, why? Why is that?

Why is that the case? And John Paul II uses the book of Job to communicate our natural responses to that mystery. in Job, so Job, for those of you don't know, Job is the stand-up guy. He's awesome. He's successful at, he's one of the only biblical figures who's great at everything who's a male. He's a great dad, he's a great provider, he's a great leader, he's a great follower of God. He's great at all four, husband, father, provider, and follower of God. And...

You can't, other than St. Joseph, you literally can't find another person who fits that description other than Job. So Job is special, right? He's special. And he loses everything. His wife, his kids, his job, his health, his money, everything. And all of these people come to Job, who are so-called friends, and they're like, you must have done something wrong. You must have done something wrong. Like, God is just, you did something wrong, and now you're being punished. And Job is like,

Nope. Nope. No, I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't deserve this. And Job is the story of a good man who goes from having a dream life to literally the ultimate worst nightmare. And so our natural human tendency is either to just give in and just be like, well, there is no purpose to anything. Everything is random. Or to be like, I somehow deserve this or this is somehow punishment for my ancestors. And this plays out to today.

Like this is happening right now. ⁓ Friends of mine, like a friend of mine, when he got diagnosed with brain cancer when he was a kid, his parents were like, this is punishment for our infidelity. Like our minds need to fill the gap of uncertainty. I don't know why I'm suffering, so I fill in the gap of justice or there is no meaning. And so Job is like, neither of those are satisfying. I know that there's meaning because I've experienced love and I've experienced meaning through love. ⁓

I know that there's meaning. know that nihilism is nonsense. I also know I didn't do anything wrong. So then what's the answer? And so he asks God and he's like, I'm going to sit here and wait. And again, God doesn't come down and like condemn him. He's not like, how dare you ask me this question, you rascal. You're the worst. You unfaithful, terrible person. He says, where were you when I made the heavens and the earth? Which as Saint John Paul the second tells us that we can understand that as like God holds the mystery.

God holds space for the mysteries, like you're not gonna know. You are not going to know. And the answer that I could give you is going to be really unsatisfying for right now. And I'm never going to eliminate the mystery of why suffering exists. I'm only going to create a path to meaning for you. And we can know this too. One of the best examples of knowing this is miscarriage. A couple has a miscarriage and they lose their child and they're devastated and they're really sad. They're able to conceive again and they have another child.

That couple isn't like, thank goodness we lost the first child so we can have this second child, right? Like, they're literally sitting there being like, I wish I had both. And I'll never know why I couldn't meet this child, but I can meet this one. I'll never know this side of heaven. I will never know. And St. John Paul II says, Jesus, he doesn't come and take away the mystery of suffering. He comes and says, I'm here for love.

In order for love to be love, it must be free. And because it's free, people have to have the choice to do good or to do evil. So instead of taking away love, instead of giving you a deep understanding and a satisfying answer as to why the mystery of suffering remains, I'm going to just come and be with you in your pain. I'm going to make sure you're never alone. At a minimum, you're never alone. And as long as I'm with you, and as long as you're never alone, there will always, always be a path.

to draw meaning. so out of this St. John Paul II says, embrace and validate your own emotional experience. Don't explain it away. Don't run from it. Don't numb yourself to the mystery. And also don't give in to the feelings either. You're not your feelings. Your feelings don't determine what you must do. Instead, connect with the reality that you're not alone, acknowledge the pain, and then start walking the path to meaning.

Joey (36:32)

For countless teens and young adults, their parents' divorce is actually the most traumatic thing that they've experienced, but so many feel lost and alone in navigating the challenges. I've been there myself. It's really not easy and it shouldn't be this way. My book, It's Not Your Fault, guides them through those challenges by helping them put their pain into words and begin to heal, work through the emotional problems that they face, cope in healthy ways instead of falling into bad habits, improve their relationship with their parents, navigate the holidays and other life events, and build healthy relationships and so much more.

One Amazon review said this, this book is packed full of really practical help. If you come from a broken family, or even if you don't, but you love someone that does, this book is so helpful. I can't recommend this enough. By the way, it's a quick read and it doesn't need to be read cover to cover. Since it's in question and answer format, you can just read one of the questions and one of the answers. And so if you want to join the thousands of people who've gotten a copy, just go to restoredministry.com slash books.

to get the book or download the free chapters. Again, that's restored ministry.com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes. Love it. So deep. So good. Any other obstacles or do we cover all of them? Yeah.

Jack (37:40)

No, ⁓ there are other hard challenges that we could talk about like the forgiveness. Whenever you suffer, forgiveness comes into the equation and forgiveness is really hard as well. So suffering begets suffering in some ways and the need to forgive yourself and forgive God and forgive other people is really important. But those are the main obstacles to drawing meaning from suffering.

Joey (38:02)

Okay, could you go through the like titles of each just in case people are taking notes or want to hear them again? then- Sure.

Jack (38:09)

The main obstacles. Yeah. So, the meaning of your life. Like, what is the meaning of your life? Why are you here on earth? That's answering that question is the first obstacle. The second obstacle is acknowledging the weight of your own suffering. Sometimes, you know, people refer to this as defining the brutal reality, being willing to ask God why and okay with living in the mystery of not knowing why, but knowing that you're not alone and that there is a path forward.

Love it.

Joey (38:40)

I want to switch gears a little bit and ask the question, you know, what's the danger if we don't handle suffering well? We kind of alluded to it at the beginning, but I think sometimes, especially if we're not in the midst of suffering, we can have this kind of attitude of like, yeah, I'm good. Like maybe I'll kind of cross this bridge when I come to it, but I'm curious, like what's the danger if we don't handle suffering well?

Jack (39:02)

suffering will make you or it will break you. And that's just a phrase. So let's talk about it on actual terms. A friend of mine, he's older than me. He's significantly older than me. When he was 19, he was dating the girl that he thought that he was going to marry. And he found out that she was actually cheating on him. He's 19 years old, all American, star of the football team, hilarious, just, and really good person, right? Very attractive.

human being in general, not just he is good looking, but just like an attractive person. A lot of people were drawn to him. Find out that she's cheating on him, never enters into a serious relationship again for the rest of his life. He was defined. He let this person's choice and the pain that he felt and the suffering that he went through define the rest of his life and rob him of so many good things. A story that I heard many years ago of two men who were in Auschwitz together, two Jewish men who were in Auschwitz together. They hadn't seen each other.

There was 30 or 40 years they hadn't seen each other since they were liberated from the camps and they're surprised they're both giving like a 40 year anniversary talk and they're surprised that they're together. And so they see each other and they have this amazing embrace and they both share a little bit of a witness of what their friendship was like and how it helped them get through Auschwitz and things like that. All off the cuff, all really beautiful. They take Q &A at the end and someone raises their hand. like, have you forgiven the Nazis? And the first one stands up and says, no, and I never.

And the second man looks at him and goes, I'm so sorry for you, my friend, that after all these years, the Nazis still live rent free in your mind. They still have you imprisoned in your own mind. Yes, yes, son, I have forgiven them and I've forgiven them long ago. Right? Like that's the cost. Nobody looks at me and says like, there's the sick kid. Right? No one looks at you, Joe, and you're like, you're the child of divorce. You're the guy who never bounced back. You're not defined by that.

There are so many other things like just being in your presence and having gotten to know you a little bit since the first podcast and getting to spend some time with you. Like what I would define you as is like you're one of the best and sincerest listeners I've ever met in my life. That's what I think of when I think of Joey. know, like I'm like, it's beautiful. Like that's what you're defined by. You're not defined by this brokenness and that's at cost. That's what you're really missing in many ways.

Joey (41:21)

So good. No. And I think by everything you said, I would just echo and yeah, and just even in my own life, just it's kind of humbling what I hear you saying, especially in that story of the two men from Auschwitz, our lives can go different ways, right? We get to choose and we can't control what happens to us, but we can control what we do in response to it. And yeah, it's humbling for me even to think back of just a different path I could have taken.

and how my life would have looked totally differently. And I think at the core of so much of it is just like great mentors that I had who came alongside me and helped me deal with pain in life. And man, would my life, I would be in a very different spot without going into too much. would definitely not be married. I wouldn't have kids. I, yeah, would probably be living a pretty empty life, chasing pleasure, you know, maybe even, I don't even know, like maybe even not a free man. ⁓ But so I think it's amazing to think that this has such.

deep consequences. This isn't just some nice philosophical thing to think about. Like people we know are suffering every single day. We will suffer even if we haven't and how we handle it can again make or break you like you said. So good, I love this and I want to know more about your course. If you would tell us about it and you know what are you offering through it and what's the transformation especially that you want people to experience who go through it?

Jack (42:39)

Yeah, thank you. One last thing on that point of suffering that I forgot to mention. Nothing worth having in this life, like truly worth having in this life comes without suffering. Like you want a great marriage, it's going to be tough. You want to be an Olympic athlete, like are you wondering why after every final race there's people on their knees crying? Because of the tremendous suffering and the blood, sweat and tears they put into. You want to lose 20 pounds. ⁓

the food you're gonna have to eat, the workouts you're gonna have to do, it's not gonna be fun, it's not gonna be easy. You want mastery, ⁓ you wanna be masterful at something professionally. You have got to do it. If you wanna become a writer and write a book, well, you should probably write every day for years. It was pretty awesome, I'll share a little bit about it, because it'll come out soon. I just got word today that my first book is going to be published. And I'm super excited.

like, ⁓ great. Like, I've only known you in the last year. Like, you're a writer. I'm like, I have written, this is like my fifth book, and the first four were terrible. And I have written every single day for the last seven years, for at least an hour. You know, it's like, and it has sucked at times. And it's been terrible. you know, we often only see the end result. they're like, I would love to, you know, get published in a book. Right? Well,

Okay, if you want that, like you've got to go through suffering. So anything really worth achieving in life, you have to endure some pain to get there. And so that's what we forgotten. Anyway, so the course, the course is not actually for that piece. The course is for people who want to make the most of their suffering and they don't know how and they're looking for a path. They desire to make more out of their suffering. They just need a little bit of help and a little bit of support. So this is a five week experience.

It happens via email where on Mondays you receive a teaching from me. On Wednesdays I interview someone who personifies that teaching, who has gone through an experience of suffering and has emerged better from it. On Thursday I give you practicals. It's not just in theory teaching. It's not just the witness of a story, but I actually give you homework, things that you can do. And then on Sundays I actually connect to the lesson directly to a particular gospel passage. And we do that every week for

for five weeks and the content is really meaningful and really, powerful, especially the witnesses of other people. It's all in audio, so you can do it. You can listen to it while you're working out, while you're driving. It's really meant for stay at home mom or stay at home dad, slicing veggies, popping an earbud in the ear and listening to something that's gonna help them get through whatever it is, is right in front of them. The transformation for me is,

You go from stuck to free to make the most of your life. Stuck in a rut, stuck blocked by some sort of hidden obstacle that you can't get past, to free to make the most of your suffering. The course is called Rise. And this is really, for anyone who's, you know, will get value out of it if they've experienced suffering, but for the person who's on the ground right now, and they're like, I don't know how I'm gonna get up and start walking again, it was designed for you.

It's designed to teach you how to get up and start walking. So that years from now, you'll be able to look back and go. That was literally the best thing, the best decision I've ever made in my entire life is to deny my parts that want to wallow, to stand up and to walk the path forward.

Joey (46:15)

I love it. And how can people get it if they want to?

Jack (46:17)

If you go to the catholicmentor.com, first thing that'll pop up actually is one of those little pop up things. And it will be an invitation to download a free episode of the course. So you can get that there, or you can go to catholicmentor.com slash rise. And that has a way for you to sign up. It's only 20 bucks. I wanted to make it super accessible. It's tons of content, tons of information. And, you know, I was, I was told by chat GPT and other advisors like,

hey, you gotta sell this for 200 bucks, 250 bucks. I'm just like, this message is not gonna be contained by me. Anyone who needs it is gonna get it. This isn't about making money, this is about putting a dollar on it that will get you to listen to the first episode, otherwise accessible to pretty much anyone. You can forego a couple of cups of coffee to purchase this course and hopefully make the most of your life.

Joey (47:13)

Good stuff, man. Well, thank you for sharing about all that. I'm glad you were able to come back on the show. ⁓ If you could leave everyone with maybe one challenge or encouragement or piece of advice, what would you offer? Especially keeping in mind that the people listening right now come from families that are dysfunctional, divorced, and they may be carrying that suffering with them.

Jack (47:32)

You were born to do this. You were born to rise to the occasion of what's in front of you. You really were. You may not like that. That may not be exciting. That may not be ⁓ exactly what you want to hear. But you can do this. And even more than that, you were made to do this. And you were made to do hard things. Because if you don't do them, you will become a shell of who you could be. And more than anything in this world, I want you to be able to look back on your life and say, I rose to the occasion of.

I became who I was made to be and I became that through this thing. So don't be afraid, you were born to do this

Joey (48:10)

If Jack's course interests you, definitely encourage you to sign up for at least a free lesson just so can try it out. And like Jack said, the course itself is only $20. And for our listeners, he's actually offering a free 45-minute mentorship session with him for anyone who buys the course, but even for people who don't buy the course. And so you can find the link to that free mentorship session as well as to the course itself in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube.

You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us more people. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We really appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help and keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#148: Why You're Anxious, Tired, & Sick—and What to Do About It | Jackie Mulligan

So many of us feel depleted and exhausted, yet we might not know why. This is especially true for those of us from divorced or broken families. Research shows that children of divorce typically have worse physical health and more emotional problems. 

But thankfully, that doesn’t have to be your story. Going from depleted to healthy on every level is not only doable—but simpler than you think, according to my guest.

In this episode, we discuss:

• 9 often-overlooked pillars of health that could be sabotaging your wellness.

• The top 4 areas of health where most people need to start. 

• Quick and simple tips you probably haven’t heard to feel and be your best.

If you’ve struggled with your health in any way or just desire to be healthier, this episode is for you.

Enroll in Reform Online

For 10% off, use code: RESTORED10 (valid until June 15, 2025) Comment end  

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Jackie (00:00)

Everybody's busy.

Everybody drinks a lot of coffee and we're just becoming used to feeling sick and tired all the time It's just become the norm, you know Not having a healthy digestive system not being able to sleep through the night Like these are things that are very very common my goodness people will say to us all the time like wow This is really radical and we'll respond and say no what's radical is how we're living now. This is radical We're living in a rat race is radical bodies are designed to heal themselves. We shouldn't need all these other factors

Wow.

Joey (00:31)

You're a master

at this. This is so helpful and I love it. ⁓

Jackie (00:34)

have

nine wellness pillars that we use to define.

Joey (00:37)

What are some of maybe the the misconceptions or myths around like health and wellness?

Jackie (00:42)

You know, we are the ones who overcomplicate it. Giving your body some predictability and some consistency is a really great way to maintain balance and order. We are all overcommitted. We are stretched and our expectations are so unrealistic of ourselves.

Joey Pontarelli (00:59)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or broken family, this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life.

My guest today is Jackie Mulligan. After years of stress and compromised health, Jackie found a secret that led to freedom and on every level. Now she helps others find the same through reform, a Catholic functional medicine and holistic wellness apostle, which she founded and now leads as their CEO.

Through their week course and live sessions, Reformist helped thousands, priests, moms, CEOs and more heal mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically. Jackie holds three master's degrees, one in in secondary education and a third master's, which you'll soon hear about in this show. She's also a functional diagnostic nutrition practitioner, holistic nutritionist, certified nutritionist consultant and so much more.

I think the reality for so many of us is so many of us feel depleted, we feel exhausted, yet we might not really know why, be able to put our finger on it. And this is especially true for those of us who come from divorced or broken, dysfunctional families. For example, research shows that children of divorce typically have worse physical health and more emotional problems. But thankfully that does not have to be your story. Going from depleted to healthy on every level is not only doable, but it's simpler than you think, according to Jackie.

In this episode, we discuss the nine often overlooked pillars of health that could be sabotaging wellness. We talk about the top four areas of most people need to start. Jackie offers some quick and simple tips you probably haven't heard to feel and be your best. And if you come from a dysfunctional or a divorced Jackie shares some powerful truth that could rewire how you see yourself and what you believe is possible. And Jackie opens up too about the moment that just changed everything for her in her health journey.

and the breakthrough that you had in that moment. If you've struggled with your health in anywhere, you just desire to be healthier, episode is for you.

Now in this episode we do talk about God and faith and if you don't believe in God you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this show knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast and so wherever you're glad you're here. If you don't believe in God my challenge to you would be this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God part you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode. And with that, here's our conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (03:16)

Jackie, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you.

Jackie Mulligan (03:18)

thank you so much, Joey. I'm grateful to be here.

Joey Pontarelli (03:21)

For everyone listening who doesn't know reform wellness is, what you guys do, would you give us a quick explanation?

Jackie Mulligan (03:27)

Sure. We are Catholic functional medicine practice and holistic wellness apostolate. And so we define health as the state of the body and the soul together. And we invite the people that we work with to return to a life of simplicity centered on Christ. And so essentially we help people reclaim wellbeing, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically, to help them become the best versions of themselves.

so that they can experience the fullness of life the Lord promises us. And so work with priests and religious, but we work with mostly laity, in person and online from all over the globe.

Joey Pontarelli (04:08)

Beautiful. And who's the typical person you work with in terms of like lay people? Is there a certain age or is it kind of run the gamut? Men, women, just curious.

Jackie Mulligan (04:15)

Well, we work with mostly women, but it's interesting because the men that we do work with will say, wow, guys really need this. Do you work with more men? But I don't know if it's a timing thing or just that.

sometimes reform in itself appeals to more women in our approach, but we do typically work with women, though we are welcome to working with anybody. so, yeah, I would say that women between 30 and 50 are like main clientele, but certainly not limited. I think some of our favorite pairs to work with are like mother daughters, which is really beautiful.

But really, Joey, we have, you know, CEOs and athletes and moms and like I said, religious, you know, everybody really comes through for different reasons. And not just looking for physical healing, but actually I would say mostly for other kinds of healing. And it's really beautiful for us to be able to help all these different walks of life.

Joey Pontarelli (05:12)

Beautiful, no I love that. And I'm curious, why do you care? Why do you care about this? Why does this matter so much to you?

Jackie Mulligan (05:19)

You know, I was just at dinner last night and I was with the Dean of the school that I'm about to receive my, my master's in theology. just handed in my thesis and it was a really just a huge milestone for me. And we were talking a little bit about reform and she, she stopped me and she was like, you really love what you do. And it really is true. And I feel so very grateful for that gift. I feel such purpose in,

in what I'm doing. And I think it's because I had such a personal experience in the beginning of starting reform. And that was my own realization that if I wanted to be holy well, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, I really needed to put the Lord at the center of my life, to not compartmentalize him, to not give him access to some areas of my heart or some areas of my healing or some areas of my life.

but rather give him access to everything, which he saw anyway, but gives us free will. And so I love it because I really do see people healing. It's so much more than even what we offer, but it's watching what the Lord does in people's lives. Like when they give their yes and live from a place where they're really embodying their truest.

identity as a beloved daughter or son of Christ and really allowing themselves to tangibly believe that and feel that, but then approach their healing from that place, knowing who the Lord is that nothing is impossible for him. Like really amazing things happen. go through all of the barriers that we once put up and we begin to desire to live better.

And I watch that every day, Joey. I watch people say yes to the Lord in big and small ways. And I am really a facilitator. I'm guiding people toward the ultimate healer. I'm certainly not healing I do love it so much and it's such a gift. And I care because I want people to go to heaven. And I want them to be healthy while they're here and experience everything that we get to offer earth.

I fully alive means that we receive the gift of the joy and the sorrow. It's not just perfect, but it's like the cross is being fully alive and that is the joy sorrow, right? And so St. Augustine has a quote attributed to him that would maybe summarize, you know, my real why. that is that,

Joey Pontarelli (07:33)

Hmm.

Jackie Mulligan (07:48)

taking care of your body as if you're gonna live forever. So really revering the gift of your body, but then taking care of your soul as if you're gonna die tomorrow. So there's this like sobering invitation to tend to your whole person that you're prepared for longevity and heaven. And that's really how I believe people will be motivated to tend to their wellbeing in a very holistic but realistic way.

Joey Pontarelli (08:14)

love all that and no I could tell you care so deeply and it's beautiful. Congrats on the finishing your masters and you see it so often that you know I think I'll speak as a man it's so easy to compartmentalize life like I know people who maybe are very spiritually strong but their bodies are kind of falling apart or on the flip side I know people who they're completely ripped like they're super strong healthy like in that regard but

they take care of their body to such a pristine level, their souls are not in good shape. And so I'm sure you see that left and right. So it's so cool that you're trying to bring that balance, trying to bring that harmony, trying to just help people live that life fully alive. And other thing I know we were talking before we recording about just like life and how it's hard. I it's an important paradox to acknowledge that life can be hard, there can be challenges.

But you could also live it in a really full and joyful way. It's not meant to be drudgery constantly. It's not meant to be something that there's no joy in. It's not all discipline. There's so much goodness in life. There's so much beauty. There's so much truth. So yeah, that's kind of a paradox I guess I've been wrestling with a little bit lately of how life can be hard, but it can be so good and so beautiful. And that's something I've realized, I'm getting married and starting a family too, how my life did not get easier, certainly.

married, know having kids and everything but but in so many ways has gotten better And so I think there's an important lesson there, but yeah, I love to hear your thoughts on any that

Jackie Mulligan (09:37)

Well, it certainly doesn't get easier and I think that that's sometimes the fear of like, why would I change if this might get harder? It's already hard or I'm already suffering. So if I allow the Lord to be a part of this healing, what if he doesn't do what I want him to do? And what if I don't get better? What if I suffer and sacrifice even more and I'm worse off?

That's a very understandable fear, certainly. But I think what we're all really desiring, Jo, if we peel back all these layers, is a deep connection and intimacy with the Lord a meaningful, purposeful life. And I think our vocations really bring that out. And what we have to do is not only reorient our priorities toward our vocation, but first, going back to identity,

reorienting our lives to first have a relationship with the Lord. And I know not everyone who listens has a relationship with the Lord. And so even just that curiosity of, you know, what am I truly hungry for? What am I yearning for? And am I expecting this fulfillment that I might be only able to find in place to come from people or places or things or

quote unquote And so what you likely learned entering into different aspects of your vocation as a husband and father is that you have to reorient your posture toward the duties being served first, first of course toward the Lord, but then toward your wife and then family and then your work. And so I think that when those are

out of order, we become out of order, like literally broken, and, and sick. and so maybe it's not easy, but we can simplify it. And I don't think we actually ever really want the easy way, but we want the, feels right. What feels peaceful? What feels, like there's true connection. Cause things can be hard, but when you're doing it with someone,

you know, the yoke is lighter. so first, you know, are we trying to just be self-sufficient and self-reliant and do it all on our own? Or are we allowing the Lord and others to help us even in the midst of the hard? So those are just a couple of thoughts on what I would say on life being hard and the easy way as well.

Joey Pontarelli (11:53)

I love that. I recently gave a talk to high school students on this topic of life being hard and pain and everything. And there was a mom, a woman who shared a video from, I think one of the former coaches of the Duke women's basketball team. And she had this awesome couple minute clip. We'll link to it in the show notes about how life doesn't get easier, you just get better at hard. And I thought that was really brilliant, kind of summarize some of what we're talking about here. The other thing I just wanted to mention,

I love how you have a definition of health because I think so often we talk about health, the wellness, whatever, but we never really know quite what we're talking about. And so I love that you have that. I think it's so important to have that blueprint. But I'm curious, what are some of maybe misconceptions or myths around health and wellness that maybe we fall into believing that are kind of harmful?

Jackie Mulligan (12:39)

we let things that are part of defining our health fully define our health. And so it's the scale or our body composition or our bank account how many friends we have, followers on social media. I think sometimes these indicate maybe how well we are doing or our health.

reframe that in a lot of ways at Reform. We have nine wellness pillars that we use to define our health because there are so many different ways that the world invites us to measure our health that I think are not fully indicative of our whole person well-being. And so we have faith at the center of all of our pillars. And so that's the first one. And the eight other ones are sleep, stress management, personal growth, nutrition.

play, functional movement, community, and space. So we take all of these different pillars and we help people to approach them not only with the Lord, but with the motivation to open to letting the Lord inform their decisions. So for example, as we approach nutrition, know, there are

at this point, gazillion different diets we could follow and a different, a lot of different ways that could motivate our macros or our weight or, a lot of different factors that can contribute to our choices in nutrition. we ask people to simplify it in the sense of how would you eat if you remembered that you're a beloved daughter or son of Christ? You know, how would you choose to nourish your body?

if you really rooted in your truest identity and if you want it to be healthy physically and spiritually. the truth is that most of us know how we ought to eat. We know we ought to eat real whole foods. We are the ones who overcomplicate it it really doesn't have to be complicated. Now, nutrition and food can be medicine and there are certain seasons where certain foods can help us more than others. But intuitively, Joey, most people know that

sugar isn't going to make them more healthy or that alcohol isn't going to make you more healthy. And so, there isn't like a good or bad, but rather approaching the wellness pillars, in a rightly ordered way to say, well, if I really understand who I am and who the Lord is, then I would choose to nurture my body, in a way that would really be life giving. And, and I do find that people stop focusing so much on

the scale macros or about the foods that they're eating or not eating and focus more on like the freedom that comes with their identity. And often when using nutrition as example, because it's one of the most common ways that people measure their health. But when people are focusing on a diet or on their nutrition, even if it's for a good reason, like to heal their gut,

Sometimes that becomes like the center of their life, becomes the idol, like the only thing they're thinking about is their nutrition and there's not a place for the Lord or for healing to happen that attachment and control.

Joey Pontarelli (15:39)

That makes so much sense. And I love what you said at the beginning, especially too, just kind of misattributing, or using the wrong measuring stick for health and wellness and all that, because I think, yeah, so common. But I love everything you said. I'm curious, of the nine pillars, what are the ones that are like the most immediately helpful for most people? Like, obviously, I'm sure it varies from, you know, this person to that person, but what are the ones that you guys see like, ⁓ you know, typically these like one, two, or three,

are the most immediately helpful.

Joey Pontarelli (16:07)

Okay, real talk, if you've been trying to get in shape so you feel better physically and emotionally, but nothing is working, you're not crazy. I've been there myself. I recently read a free guide by Dakota Lane, a certified personal trainer who we've partnered with that's helped about a thousand people. And it was really helpful for me personally.

In the guide, he breaks down the biggest fitness mistakes that we all make like under eating, overstressing, or focusing too much on the scale. And he gives really simple practical tips that you could actually use that you can implement today.

And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally.

Jackie Mulligan (16:46)

Yeah, the ones that we have to do every day. So faith, prayer every day, sleep and nobody gets enough of it. ⁓ And really nourishment, nutrition, nourishing our bodies. I would even venture to say that stress management comes up right after that. know, people come and think we're gonna go right into movement or tell them exactly what to eat and we don't even get there until like that, you know, the second part of our course, but.

really approaching their health of first to say, are a body and a soul together. You're not a body without a soul. They're not two different parts of you. They're one whole and one affects the other. And so it's almost like why you're not sleeping or why you're not praying is more important than what you're doing when you're praying or what you're eating. And so we're looking at the real motivation, the why, and we have found

that when your why is connected to the Lord and heaven longevity, you're more...

able and willing to be consistent than if it was something fleeting like I want to lose 10 pounds or I want to make X amount of money. Those things are motivating in a very temporary way. And so it is beautiful to give it real meaning and depth. But I would say that most people need, we start with their sleep and their prayer life and we see so much change. see more, we see weight loss happen without even touching nutrition and just looking at

prioritizing sleep and prioritizing the relationship with prayer.

Joey Pontarelli (18:16)

I love that. I was listening to Gary Brekka. He's like a biohacker for anyone who isn't familiar. biology and did whatever degree in that. And then he was working for an insurance company predicting how many months people had to live. And he just learned a lot about health by looking at all these different places. So some people maybe don't follow all of what he said, but I found a lot of what he said helpful. And one of his lines is that belief disconnected from biology. Like biology and belief are like

so tightly wound and I also love that like the body soul combination how we're yeah certainly we need meaning we need grace we need all those things but curious in all those like four that you mentioned you know sleep nutrition faith and you know stress management let's put that in there too what's like one tip that you would give to everyone listening maybe in each of those if yeah you pick where to start but I'm curious if they had like one quick tip if you're like passing someone on the street what would you say to help them improve in that area

Jackie Mulligan (19:10)

Yeah, of course. For faith, I would start there because we need the Lord. We need him and in order to have a connection with him and to invite him into our healing and to not do this on our own, we need to pray. And so we recommend only praying every day, but praying early. So prioritizing that first things first. So prioritizing prayer before you touch your cell phone, before you start answering emails.

give him the first fruits and we recommend 30 minutes a day. You might want to work your way up to that. and there's no formula. you know, there's a lot of different, really beautiful ways to, to pray. but yeah, starting with prayer early and often, to reorient your day and to hand over your day to the Lord. You know, Joey and I were just speaking before we started the episode of how we like to come into the day with our own plan. And when that gets changed, you know, sometimes it can feel.

Frustrating or disrupting, but the truth is that that's the way it is every day. We just think we have control. And so it's so beautiful to hand over keys back to the Lord who has the keys anyway. And that's a really beautiful thing to do in the morning to hand over your worries, to offer your intentions and to prioritize the things that might be on your plate that day. So that's how I would start with faith. With sleep.

Absolutely prioritizing a time to unplug and having a consistent bedtime and wake time so that our body has so many different things that it has to do during the day to sort of manage your stress and the things that are so unpredictable that giving your body some predictability and some consistency is a really great way to maintain balance and order.

but to also allow you to have adequate rest and sleep. So this might sound crazy to some who don't get a lot of sleep, but we recommend seven and a half to nine hours, minimally, for adults. I think a great time to unplug around nine, nine thirty and getting to bed around 10. The earlier you can unplug, the better. The less time you have with blue

which can disrupt the production of melatonin, the better. that's, that's sleep, nutrition. This sounds a little bit too straightforward sometimes, but I don't think enough people do it. And so one of our recommendations is to sit down for your meals for 20 minutes, not eating on the go, not eating, ⁓ while you're working or in front of a screen or driving or commuting. but rather sitting down for your meals.

saying a quick prayer of gratitude for the food that you're about to literally going to fuel your body for the day. ⁓ but also it helps you to slow down and chew your food and give adequate time for digestion. Gut health is like the root of disease these days. And, ⁓ I think it's a lot of, because of how we're eating, ⁓ or maybe even more so than what we're eating, but also, Joey, if you think about it, you would

Joey Pontarelli (22:03)

Hmm.

Jackie Mulligan (22:06)

want to put more nourishing foods on your plate if you're going to be sitting down and presently eating and allowing yourself to nourish slowly. And sometimes I think we don't pay attention to what we're eating because we're just eating it on the go and it's just out of convenience. so sitting down for your meals sounds relatively straightforward and almost overly simplistic, but there's so much that can happen in being present and sitting down with your food.

All right, we have one more that I'll go over, stress management. So stress management, I think you have to know what your stressors are. So one of the most inconvenient things is to pause and actually identify what is on your plate. Like what are your stressors, what's on your plate? And so taking the time to really define, these are the top three things I'm stressed out about. And being very, very honest about can you control any of those stressors?

Joey Pontarelli (22:31)

I love all that. Yeah, this is great.

Jackie Mulligan (22:59)

And if you can, what it take taking one step toward that, that stressor most people will realize that, they're stressed and they don't, skip this step and they just start doing something just to get something accomplished rather than the thing that, that actually is urgent and important. and so really identifying what's urgent, what's important and what you have control over. Commonly we see people stressing about things that are

not in their control, that it's God's business. They need to hand it over to him, that somebody else's cross that they can't fix. So identifying where you maybe need to hand it over in prayer or to delegate or ask for help. And just that small five minute reflection can often reduce stress, but also help you to see that your mind might be making something bigger than it is, or that you have very little control over the worries that are keeping you.

stressed.

Joey Pontarelli (23:52)

So good, wow, you're a master at this. This is so helpful and I love it. So if I got this all right, let me see if I got it all right. So prayer 30 minutes a day before phone, before email, before screens and work and everything like that. With sleep, get to sleep by 10 p.m. at least, start shutting down an hour or so before, if I maybe heard that wrong. Don't use blue light if you can to help your melatonin production so you can fall asleep and have a restful.

night and then get up at the same time every morning if you can. When it comes to nutrition, sit for at least 20 minutes to eat your meal. Don't eat on the go. Don't eat in front of a screen. And then when it comes to stress, just really identify what are the stressors, what's controllable, what's not. Control the controllables and then leave the rest to God. So did I get that?

Jackie Mulligan (24:35)

Absolutely. Yeah, you did. You're a good student,

Joey Pontarelli (24:36)

Awesome, love it.

Trying to learn,

no, I need this too. Cause yeah, and on that last note, I think it's so easy, especially if you overcommit or have the tendency to overcommit like me, ⁓ that you can, yeah, just kind of run ragged, like you said, and just be on autopilot to where you're just like, you're not even breathing. I find myself at time, like if I like feel my body, I'm like literally tense. And so I think it's helpful to step back and to think through like, okay, you what do I need to focus on? What's like you said, the most important.

the most leveraged item that's gonna help me. So anyway, love all of that. was curious, kind of shifting gears a little bit, about like the nervous system. So I know we can't spend too much time here, but I'm curious, like, know, talk to me like I'm a third grader and teach me a little bit about the basics about the nervous system that might be helpful on the content and the courses that you guys have.

Jackie Mulligan (25:20)

you

Sure. So we have two parts of our nervous system, our parasympathetic and our sympathetic. So our parasympathetic is our rest and digest, and that's where we should be living most of the time. Our sympathetic was our fight or flight. that is if basically if we've experienced a stressor, if, you know, somebody ran a red light or you're being chased by an animal, like you would tap into the fight or flight and then you would quickly recover and go back into

your rest and digest or your parasympathetic. that is how we are designed. Our modern world lives in their sympathetic and sometimes taps into their parasympathetic. And so I'm actually gonna connect this to something you just said about overcommitment because we are all overcommitted. We are stretched and our expectations are so unrealistic of ourselves. And I think what we often see at reform

is want to skip over the basics because it feels too simple and they think I have to do something harder. the recommendation I just gave you, they sound like, oh, I kind of knew that. And that's like relatively simple. Like I can pray every day and I can unplug, but nobody's doing it. And so we want to do these harder things. We want to train for a marathon or lift really heavy, you know, say yes to more and more commitments, which aren't bad things.

but they need to happen after we have the foundations in place. And what we help people do is literally set a new foundation with consistency and prioritizing a simple life where things happen at the same time or in the same way every day, where you're literally living a daily rhythm, which is how we were intended to live. And then you can fill it in with other yeses, but your first yes is to the Lord, to health, and to heaven. Like those yeses happen every day.

And then you can give other yeses to additional things on your capacity. And, I think that's the only way we can really live in our parasympathetic. Otherwise, as you say, we can just say yes to everything. And we're sort of just like a ping pong ball. You forget to breathe and you're just reacting and surviving. And like, we were not meant to be in survival mode. You know, we can be in our sympathetic and seasons of, big traumas or big stressors, but

you're designed to then go back into your parasympathetic and like recover and rest and not the other way around. And so sadly we see almost everybody that comes through our door completely depleted, stressed out, exhausted, they're not even realizing that they are. What we have deemed as normal is that everybody's busy. Everybody drinks a lot of coffee. Everybody, you know, escapes when they're

Joey Pontarelli (27:55)

Mm.

Jackie Mulligan (28:04)

you know, into things that really don't make us healthier. When they need a little adventure or fun, and rather than being childlike, it ends up being childish. And we're just becoming used to feeling sick and tired all the time. It's just become the norm, you know, being reliant on coffee or medications.

Not having a system, not being able to sleep through the night. Like these are things that are very, very common. If you're sitting around the table with your family or friends, like everybody would, would say one of those things. And what we need to normalize is being healthy and for our bodies to live in the way that they were intended, but also to, have days that were at the pace that, that they were intended to live. so, you know, Joey, people will say to us all the time, like, wow, this is really radical. And.

will respond and say, what's radical is how we're living. Now, this is radical. We're living in a rat race is radical, but not living simply.

Joey Pontarelli (28:59)

Love it. couldn't be true. Yeah, gosh, so much there. I do want to touch on a couple more things before we close down. ⁓ Hormones. So hormones are obviously something that are being talked about a lot now and people have hormonal imbalances or all these problems that will come up. So yeah, I'm curious if you would teach me again, like I'm a third grader on hormones and like how we can get in an optimized state there.

Joey Pontarelli (29:21)

If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry.com slash resources, or click on the link in the show notes.

Jackie Mulligan (29:50)

I don't want to oversimplify it, but maybe I will in the sense that our body and starting with our hormones will be in order when we give it the environment in which they can be orderly, meaning that we're getting enough sleep, that we're eating enough and eating consistently nourishing foods. The number one thing that affects our hormones is stress.

so that we're managing our stress. And so our bodies, again, shouldn't need to predict, is Joey gonna sleep tonight? Is Joey gonna nourish me today? Are we gonna be working 14 hours or are we gonna have a little bit of a rest time? There needs to be predictability day and consistency so that there can be order and bodies are designed to heal We shouldn't need all these other factors.

but the best way to manage, your, your hormones and to keep, regulated is to have a daily rhythm and consistency. you can look, nature teaches us this, Joey, where, know, when, when it's sunlight, that's really when we should be out and, doing, and when it's a dark out, this is where we should be resting.

and so we can learn a lot from, from the natural world, but even our circadian rhythm where every 24 hours we're given the opportunity to begin a new, but also, the day light and the darkness, like help us to know when it's time to shut down and when it's time to slow down. and we sort of have just modernized all of this and just keep going until we say stop.

And that affects and really disrupts all of our natural hormones.

Joey Pontarelli (31:21)

Okay, no, it makes so much sense. And there's so much I wanna say. One, I was just thinking of just how depleted we all are on so many levels. And I think that just, it makes so much sense that if you kind stop the depletion, start to nourish yourselves in whatever way that might look like, like we're talking about, then you're gonna be happier, you're gonna be healthier. I bet your emotions fall too with people being depressed or anxious all the it makes so much sense. yeah, I...

I had to kind of face this in the last year to some extent because I took this, I went to some physical therapy for my shoulder. I tweaked it, working out and the therapist is like very holistic and she was like wanting to know like, it seems like you're, you you present yourself as like being pretty calm, but interiorly she's like, I wonder if like you're kind of living your life and like the sympathetic. And so like in that fight or flight mode, and I took an assessment, like kind of self assessment that she gave me. And I realized like, my goodness, like,

So much of my life is like you said, lived in that. So I've been trying to like learn to, you know, to do what you've said. But so I'm really excited to go through the course and make use of what you guys offer. But on that note, I'm curious if people are wondering like, yes, I need this. Like, this is so important. Like struggling in this way or that way with sleep or hormones or, you know, nutrition or, you know, whatever, faith, especially. so how do, what do you offer? Like, how, how do I get it?

Jackie Mulligan (32:39)

Sure. We have an online course called Reform Online, and that's really the first way to begin working with us. So it's 12 weeks. It's essentially self-paced in that you can watch the courses as you're able throughout the 12 weeks. But we also offer live sessions throughout each month. And so there's ways to engage with us live throughout the course, and then also there's prerecorded classes.

we have a cohort starting in June 2nd, Joey, that we're actually just launching today. So it's perfect timing. ⁓ and, it's, it's going to be everything we offer in our foundational course, which is, is going deeper into all the pillars that of health that I named earlier. But we also have a theme in addition to that, which is on metabolic health and body composition. So that will, we'll be focusing on that this summer. And it also includes.

a private consultation with myself or Dr. Bridget. So a nice way to have some one-on-one personalized attention and care, but also to journey with a community toward Christ-centered healing and Christ-centered wellness. So I would say starting with our course, if you're not quite ready or you want to learn more about reform, we have our Instagram page where we share free content.

all the time throughout, actually after Lent, because we're offline for Lent right now. But on our website, we have a tab also that is an events tab, and we offer quarterly workshops on different topics, free webinars every single month. So there's a lot of different ways to get to know more about reform. And then certainly, if people are interested in our course, that would be the best place to fully dive in.

Joey Pontarelli (34:09)

it so good and I'm curious how many people have you served and are there any neat stories that are kind of top of mind of like amazing transformations that you've seen?

Jackie Mulligan (34:17)

Yeah, we have journeyed with thousands of people now, which is just such an incredible gift for us and from really all corners of the globe. We almost have lost count of the amount of countries now that we've worked with. It's just truly, it's humbling and it's amazing and it's such a gift from the Lord to even show us, not everybody comes from the same background or beliefs or comes with the same health ailments.

but it's just showing how ⁓ as a body of Christ, we all need him and we all need healing, which is really beautiful. I think that when I see a father or a mother come to us who are depleted and they have somebody in their life that needs healing, whether it's a spouse, whether it's a child, and their first initial yes toward reform is that they want to learn so they can help the other person in their life, but...

One of the first things we teach is that if you want to reform someone else, you have to start with yourself and let the Lord reform them. so there's this beautiful surrender and reorientation of trust toward the Lord. But then there's like this detachment.

where the Lord gets to help that person that they love and care so much, but their own reformation increases their capacity to love, to serve, to pray. I mean, it's so beautiful. And so it's sort of like a two-for-one deal. It's like they're healthier and more capable. And now their life and their witness is teaching the others in their household ⁓ also how to live. But...

the Lord's also now free rather than them being distracted to like freely help, you know, those who they love too. So that's really one of my favorite, you know, kind of repetitive stories that we see over and over. And I think one more that I'll share, Joey, is, you know, having priests or religious, makes me emotional to even say, but come to us who care so much about their soul and, ⁓ and they just, their bodies are tired and run down and a bit broken and they start prioritizing.

their wellbeing in the sense of nourishing consistently and sleep and managing stressors and realizing that they're probably too much on their plate. And then their capacity to receive clarity in prayer or to pray more often or to pray more deeply, basically their connection with the Lord is just increases tenfold. And we've had a priest say to us, know,

I noticed that what I was nourishing my body then ended up being the nourishment I gave during my homilies. Like it was like when I fed myself well, I fed the people I was preaching to well. And it was like the Holy Spirit had space to move and to breathe. And I just thought like, ⁓ my gosh, this is, it's so beautiful. So we have thousands of beautiful stories, but I think that's these two common themes are the ones that really make this work just such a gift.

Joey Pontarelli (37:01)

I love it. So good. I could talk with you forever. There's this one story I was thinking of sharing of, I heard this a while ago. don't, haven't been able to track it down, but apparently Pope John Paul II, Saint John Paul II, a seminarian at one point asked him, you know, how do I have a good prayer life? How do I deepen my prayer life? And apparently he said, he said, sleep, exercise, and eat good And I thought it was like brilliant. And so, so anyway, I just think what you're saying makes so much sense of just, you know, if you want to live.

Jackie Mulligan (37:22)

Mm. Mm-mm.

Joey Pontarelli (37:28)

life to the fullest on every level, then yeah, what you guys are offering is what we all need. So thank you so much. I wanna give you the last word. I seriously could talk to you forever. I love the work that you're doing. And so just keep up the awesome work. I know there's people in your life, you know people who come from broken families. And so I'm just wondering like, they're listening right now. And so what encouragement, what advice would you give to them, especially as it relates to their just all overall health and wellness because

So often what we see is when they come from broken families, when they come from dysfunction, a lot of imbalance in their soul and their bodies and with their emotions. And so what final encouragement or advice would you give to them?

Jackie Mulligan (38:05)

Thank you for question and encouragement. would remind us and them that we're not alone and they're not alone and that we have the best Heavenly Father who loves us more than we can even fathom. I mean, it would blow us away if we knew really how much we are loved. And to let that love drive out any fear.

because I think when we believe the lie that we're alone that we can never be whole or never have a healthy relationship or be healthy in general, it puts up a barrier around what the Lord can really do. And so when we really desire healing, I don't know if there's a better person to pair with than the Lord. And so go to Him, nothing is too big, nothing is too broken.

And I think that...

with every yes toward life in him, every yes of like taking good care, you'll increase your capacity to be able to heal. I think that's what we all desire is an increased capacity to know his will, to feel his love, to know his mercy. And that just requires giving him just an inch of our days, an inch of our wellbeing and he will do the rest.

Joey Pontarelli (39:19)

What a good woman, what an amazing organization. To get the resources that Jackie and her team offers, can go to reformwellness.co, again, reformwellness.co, or just click on the link in the show notes.

That wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your podcast app. Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, more subscribers that we have, the more the apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for help, and it only takes a few seconds. And you've already done that, I definitely invite you to rate or review the show. We really appreciate that feedback, and that helps people find the show as well.

In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#147: From Athlete to Paralyzed: “It’s the Best Thing That’s Happened to Me” | AJ De La Rosa

AJ had a normal life as a college student-athlete. But one night, a violent car accident left AJ paralyzed from the waist down. 

What started as 15 minutes of hell has transformed into what he calls “The best thing that’s happened to me.” 

In this episode, you’ll hear:

• The detailed story of the accident and the unexplainable emotions he experienced in the minutes after the accident

• The two things that helped him cope and beat feeling like a perpetual victim

• What AJ said to the driver of the vehicle and the miracles and transformations that have resulted from his injury

If you’ve endured trauma, a horrible injury, or you’re just going through an intense season of suffering, this episode is for you.

Follow AJ:

• Instagram

• TikTok

• YouTube

Email: Ajoftherose@gmail.com

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide: The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

View Restored’s Resources

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

AJ (00:00)

I had one of the top five minutes on the team. I was the guy that would dance in the middle of the dance floor. That's just kind of my life before my accident.

Joey (00:07)

So live in like a quote-unquote normal life.

AJ (00:09)

It was a Friday night. I was just kind of want to have fun as a college student. know, the car is going extremely fast.

Joey (00:16)

I'm curious, like, were you angry? Were you afraid?

AJ (00:18)

My

back hurt so bad and I couldn't move so all I was able to do was turn my neck. All I thought about was my life is over. Is this real? Like am I in a movie right now? There's just blood running down my face.

Joey (00:29)

So you said it was like 15 minutes of just like hell. Did it become more real when you were like leaving the hospital?

AJ (00:34)

from being

a college soccer player to trying to sit up but you can't even sit up. I think that was a hit in the face moment when I realized like I actually do need handicap parking.

Joey (00:43)

I wanted to talk to you a little bit about like grieving. I was curious how you have managed to avoid falling into victim mentality.

AJ (00:46)

is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

couldn't control it. I was just happy and I just knew everything was gonna be okay. I literally knew AJ like everything's gonna be okay.

Joey Pontarelli (01:01)

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. If you come from a divorce or a broken this show is for you. help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build better life.

My guest today is AJ De La Rosa, a speaker, content creator, and a man whose story will honestly challenge how you see suffering, faith, and even joy. He's been featured on major shows such as The Christophanic Show. He runs an online community for high school athletes, and he shares his message of hope with thousands of people online, blending faith, storytelling, and even human.

Today AJ speaks in schools, churches, at retreats, encouraging others to embrace their suffering and their crosses and discover joy even in the darkest places.

AJ's life took a dramatic turn in college and what followed is both heartbreaking and honestly deeply inspiring. In this episode, we explore his really powerful journey through unexpected tragedy. We talk about radical forgiveness, a kind of peace that really defies logic.

You'll hear also how he found a lot of purpose in his pain, the unexpected ways he's helped others, like really amazing stuff and what's kept him grounded through it all. And so if you've ever faced something in life felt like it could break you,

this episode, this story, conversation might be exactly what you needed to hear.

In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this show knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you would be this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you take out or skip the God parts, you're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. AJ's story is amazing. And so with that, here's our conversation.

Joey Pontarelli (02:40)

AJ, welcome to the show.

AJ De La Rosa (02:42)

Hey Joey, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Joey Pontarelli (02:45)

No, it's great to have you on. I've been looking forward to this and want to talk about your accident obviously and what happened. But before we do that, I was wondering if you of paint a picture for everyone listening of what your life was like before it happened. So yeah, take us back there. What was life like then?

AJ De La Rosa (02:59)

So life before my was kind of crazy, it was kind of but at a young age, I was a practicing Catholic, so I wasn't really like.

I mean, my mom would try to take us to church, but my dad really never went to Maybe once every month or so, but it depended, like, it depended whether the Miami Dolphins were playing or not. so that was kind of like the reasoning why my dad didn't really go to church and he just really wasn't faithful, but they did get married through the church.

But then like 10 years before my accident, when I was like maybe in 2013, so when I was like 10 years old, my dad went on an Emmaus retreat with Catholic Church. And he went to that Emmaus retreat, it was during my mom and dad's wedding anniversary. And one of his friends told him that this would be the best gift you will ever give your wife and your family. He ended up going retreat.

And when he came back from it, he was on fire. And he had a conversion. And from that day on, we went to Sunday mass every single weekend. So then my faith kind of grew or whatever. And I was an athlete, played sports my whole life.

played soccer, basketball, football, literally everything that you can imagine. I went to a Catholic high school and my faith kind of grew. My personal faith journey kind of grew and it kind of went away during COVID. We were all inside and I couldn't go to church and I was lazy. But pretty much COVID happened, my faith kind of declined and then I got a scholarship to play college soccer at Ave Marie University.

Or I had a scholarship to go kick. I was a kicker for my high school football team and it was for a Juco. And Virginia.

So I had both offers on the table. And honestly, I played soccer since I was three years old. And I decided I might as well just go with soccer because that's something I've been playing my whole life. And there's a Catholic University. So I thought it was going to be a lot of weird people at first. I wasn't very used to it. I'm from Miami. So being from Miami, there's not that I mean, there's a big Catholic community, but I never got exposed to that Catholic community. And there was a lot of homeschoolers.

and I thought a lot of them were weird. And I know that sounds kind of messed up, but I really believe that they're weird. But then I came here and I met some of my closest friends ever my whole life, and I'm probably going to be friends with them for rest of my life. And I ended up playing college soccer. I was a starter for two years. My sophomore year, I one of the top five minutes on the team, and I was a left winger and I really enjoyed Ava Maria.

and then my accident was the party guy like my whole life. I loved like with family. I was the guy that would dance in the middle of the dance floor. I loved sports. I was outgoing, extrovert, and then I went to Aave. That's just kind of my life before my accident, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (05:55)

Hm

Okay,

yeah, so live in like a quote unquote normal life and having fun and all that. Cool. All right, so I know bit of your story, but take us through it for anyone who has never heard of this story, of course, like what happened? Like how did the accident come about?

AJ De La Rosa (06:07)

Yeah, exactly.

So, I mean there's a lot of like many miracles that happened during this accident, but I'm just gonna give you just like what happened that day and how the night finished I guess. So, I was a college soccer player. I had my classes all day and then I went to soccer practice. Like everything was perfectly fine. It was a regular soccer practice and I walked back from the soccer fields. I went and had dinner. I started playing a couple games.

outside after dinner and I had a volleyball tournament that night and my team name was the two block us I played in a volleyball tournament after the volleyball tournament. We came like in third place and I went back to the it was a it was a Friday night. I was just kind of wanting to have fun as a college student. You know hang out with some friends. So I took a shower got dressed. We kind of had a couple drinks and.

We were drinking outside the dorm, just me and a couple of friends, like probably like six of us were just outside the dorm just drinking and talking. That was kind of my type of fun. I was never really like somebody that go out to clubs or stuff like that. So it was just, my fun was more of just hanging out with friends, drinking and talking. So there was a lot of us just there drinking and talking and these two girls come outside the dorm and I knew who they They were like kind of friends that are

I was just becoming friends with at the time. they go outside and they're like, AJ, like you have to come to this party. Like, come on, AJ, come to this party. And I was like, I look at everybody. I'm like, only way I'm going is if everybody here goes with me. And I ended up like everybody was like, all right, let's do it. And it's like it's at a park that was one minute away. I was like, OK, let's just do it. So the people I was with, they went in one car and I ended up going with the two girls and I picked up one of my other

Shout out Joe. We got Joe from the other house and we went to the park. And when we were there at the I was there for about maybe 30 minutes to an hour. It was kind of already later at nighttime when we went. It was like around maybe like 10 o'clock at night. And then we went there and I stayed there maybe for maybe it was a little bit more over an hour. But I was there for an hour and a half maybe. And I was talking to some people, but the party was ending.

my friend Joe that I brought with me was leaving and it was getting kind of nasty and I was like, you know what, I just want to leave. So then I looked for the closest car that I could get into and I saw that the friends I was hanging right outside the dorms was leaving. So I was like, you know what, I'll just go with you guys. So, and he also had a Tesla and I was like, ooh, like I've never been in a Tesla before. I want to go

So then I go into the Tesla and I'm about to get into the car and there's a guy and a girl, Michael Clicus and Grace. They were gonna get in the car but Grace, this girl that I knew, she didn't wanna sit next to the guy that she never has talked to before. So I was like, you know what, I'll sit in the middle. So I went and sat in the middle of the car we we go and we're leaving. I'm in the

the driver makes a left. And while making a left, I'm like, wait, our dorm is to the right. I don't know why you're going to the left. And he made a U-turn. He goes down to the four He makes a left to go there, to to go back to our dorm. And right when we make a left, we're all like listening to music, having a good time. He ends up gassing the car and the car ends up going 97 miles per hour on a 25.

Joey Pontarelli (09:47)

Mm.

Gosh.

AJ De La Rosa (09:52)

And right when he gassed the car, I literally shot back from my seat. Like I literally, it felt like I was And I just remember trying to grab his shoulder and tell him like, relax, like why are you going so fast? Like relax. We ended up going 97 to 25 and there was a roundabout at the end of the The car is going extremely fast we hit the roundabout, go airborne, hit a palm tree and then a pole.

And I was pretty much conscious the whole time. I think I blacked out for maybe 10 ended up waking up in the car and I looked to my left and the drivers on the ground. I looked to the right and next to driver was on the ground and ended up like looking back. But then right when I look back to the backseat, my back hurt so bad. My back was

And I couldn't move, so all I was able to do

I just remember seeing the two people that were sitting next to me, they were fine, they were in their chair, and they started waking up. I saw everybody and she starts crying. The girl that was sitting next to me in the back starts crying, what do I do, what do I do? And I'm like, call 911. We just got My back is bad. You have to call 911 as fast as possible. kind of...

Joey Pontarelli (11:03)

Hmm.

you

AJ De La Rosa (11:12)

She didn't know what to do. I I've never gotten into a really bad car accident ever in my life. I'm pretty sure no one else in the car has. So when something like this happens, you just don't know what to do. So she didn't really know what to do and I was trying to like take her through the steps to like cops. she ended up calling the cops and in my head, that was probably the worst time of my life. Being in the car, knowing that my back is

And then I started touching my legs and I couldn't feel my legs anymore. Like my legs were just done. I couldn't feel nothing. And right when I felt my legs and I couldn't feel anything, all I thought about was I'm never gonna be able to walk again. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to have kids. I'm never gonna be able play sports again. Every single bad thought went through my head at that time.

is this real? Like there's no way my legs are just like not working. Like that has to be impossible. Like am I in a movie right now? Like am I in a dream? Like this can't be real. And I just started crying for like, like just crying, sobbing, tears going out my face. Then people started coming up to the car. Are you guys And I would say, get me out of this car, please. I don't want to be in this car anymore.

and there's just blood running down my face. And every single person that came up to me, it was like, are you okay? They would just be like, ⁓ and just get scared because they saw a whole bunch of blood everywhere. And it was just a very wild moment. But then of me crying Every bad thought was in my head, kids, sports, my parents, everything, with just a snap of a finger.

literally from that moment till right now, I have I really can't explain. And I really believe that God was with me that night and he gave me this peace to just be happy and know that God has literally everything under control. And this is how my life is just gonna be

Joey Pontarelli (13:28)

Wow.

AJ De La Rosa (13:29)

Yeah, so at that moment I just knew like, I'm gonna be okay. Like, I'm gonna be probably in a wheelchair for the rest God has everything under control. Yeah. So that was like the accident part of it. And then they end up getting me out of the car. I'm happy at this point. I'm great. Like, my life is great. Like, God has everything under control. I get into the ambulance and all I'm thinking about is my parents at this point. Like, my mom has been a helicopter mom since day one.

Joey Pontarelli (13:36)

Hmm.

Hehehe.

AJ De La Rosa (13:57)

She is about me. I would never do anything wrong because I was scared of my parents I didn't want my mom to just like go crazy on me or, you know. So she was a helicopter mom and she always protected me, all I was thinking about was her. So I get into the the paramedic, I'm like, I just need to call my mom. Like, I just need to call my me do that?

And she was like, okay, I'll call her right now. a phone. I give her mom's number and she picks up. And at this 2 a.m., o'clock in the morning. And she's like, AJ, what's going on? Why are these people calling me? Like, okay? And I'm just

Listen, I'm just paralyzed from the waist down. no, sorry, I didn't say that. I said, I just can't feel my legs. She was like, I was like, I just can't feel my legs. And she's like, what, you can't feel your legs? I'm like, listen, mommy, I can't feel my legs, but it's okay. God has a plan and everything's gonna be okay. All I want you to do is come to the hospital. God has a plan, trust me, mommy. And I just ended and bye. And I

Joey Pontarelli (15:07)

My goodness, man. There's so much there. One, I don't think I could have reacted as as you did. I don't know if anyone could have. That's like beautiful. It's clearly like grace, like you said.

AJ De La Rosa (15:17)

Well, yeah,

it It was all God. There's no way I don't. Sometimes I still think about it till this day and I don't like this.

Joey Pontarelli (15:26)

Yeah, no,

I mean, it's beautiful. I, I can't imagine. So was it like, you said it was like 15 minutes of just like hell. Like you were just like in pain and you were just afraid and were reacting the way they were, like you said. My goodness. And then how long were you in the car until they got you out? I was curious from like the moment of the accident to the moment.

AJ De La Rosa (15:46)

So I was in the car for maybe like 20 minutes. At least it felt like 20 minutes. I'm pretty sure it was And by the way, I have a broken back at this point. And the way that I was in the car was my head, I don't know if you've ever been in a Tesla, but the Tesla screen in the middle. So windshield was over and the screen in the here on my neck. So all I could do is go like this.

Joey Pontarelli (15:47)

Okay, well.

AJ De La Rosa (16:13)

completely broken. My back was literally completely broken, so I couldn't move my back. So if I was holding myself up with my hands on the center console a little bit, holding myself up with my hands, let go, and if I didn't use my arms anymore, my back would have just completely caved in. Yeah, so I was holding myself up and to keep my if not, it would have just...

Completely, so I was holding myself up for 20 minutes with all these bad thoughts But then after the 15 minute mark That's when everything kind of got better and then five minutes waiting for them to get to get me out of the car and they had to use The machine to get me out So they had to cut the seat and slide me out to make sure that my back didn't get worse than what it what it could have been

Joey Pontarelli (16:56)

They cut the top off the car too probably to

pull you out or something like that.

AJ De La Rosa (17:01)

they didn't cut the top, no, they didn't cut the top of the car, but they just cut the seats. But while they were cutting the seat, they were using like, was like going, and it hit me right in the rib one time. And yeah, it was kind of devastating. like after the accident, it was hard to breathe for like a week or two. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (17:10)

No.

my goodness, gosh, wow. That's like a whole nother thing.

My goodness. Okay. So you were in the backseat where you're buckled.

AJ De La Rosa (17:25)

So I wasn't buckled. North Park, it's a park next to where my university is and it's literally a minute away in a car. And Ave Maria, for the people that don't know, it's like, it's a neighborhood. Like Ave Maria is a neighborhood and the driver just decided to a 25. So yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (17:46)

Yeah, there's like people riding bikes around. I've been there. There's people riding

bikes around. There's like carts. It's like super chill. It looks like the Truman show. It's like super, if you guys have seen that movie, but it's super like, you said, like a small town and people are not going fast. So this is like an anomaly. Wow. So.

AJ De La Rosa (18:06)

And not only that, it's at 1 a.m. So there's no cars around. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (18:06)

Snowen, yeah, my goodness. All right, well,

there's so much here I wanna dive into.

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Joey Pontarelli (18:52)

I am curious, so you arrived to the hospital. So this sense of peace came over you about 15 minutes in and then roughly what, five minutes later they got you out. What other emotions hit you after that period or during that, following that 15 minute period? I'm curious, were you?

angry were you afraid or was it truly just like all peace?

AJ De La Rosa (19:14)

after the 15 minutes, yeah, so after the 15 minutes, literally wasn't afraid. I knew everything was going to be okay. Like in a sense, like it was very weird at the moment because I go from crying to just automatic, just like overwhelming peace I can't even Like I didn't really mention it, but in the ambulance, I was

when the firefighters were taking me out of the car, they had to rip one of my favorite sweaters. And they ripped it because they had a, I don't know why they had to rip it to be honest, but they ripped my sweater. And I literally told them like, no, not my favorite sweater. And a lot of things bigger in life than a sweater. And I was like, it's still my favorite sweater. So I mean,

Joey Pontarelli (20:01)

Come on.

AJ De La Rosa (20:04)

I was just, I just had, I don't know, it was just unwavering, like, just peace. Like, I couldn't control it. Like, I was just happy and I just knew everything was gonna be okay. I literally knew AJ, like, everything's gonna be okay. And that's what I felt.

Joey Pontarelli (20:18)

gift. That's

it's just like, there's no words to put to this. It's such an incredible story. you show up to the hospital. What happened then?

AJ De La Rosa (20:28)

I show up to the hospital and I think this the best stories but I get there and I don't remember anything. Literally nothing. Can't remember a single thing. The doctors.

Joey Pontarelli (20:38)

One thing I wanted to add, like you weren't like drunk or

high or anything, like you were completely sober. Cause people listening maybe are thinking like, maybe he's like, toxic.

AJ De La Rosa (20:45)

no, no, yeah, I know. Yeah.

No, no, I've never like smoked anything or anything like that. I mean, I do drink a little bit, but at that time, since the volleyball tournament ended so late, I, there was no way I could have even had that many drinks to even be like intoxicated. I mean, I had like a baby or drink. I was like just one drink just to hang out, but never got absolutely like drunk or anything like that. don't know. Yeah. No, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (21:09)

Totally. Okay. No, I just want to clarify that for anyone listening. was like, maybe he wasn't experiencing peace.

Maybe it's just intoxicated. But so, okay. So you arrived at the hospital. Sorry to cut in.

AJ De La Rosa (21:14)

No. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah. So yeah, I arrived to the hospital. I don't really anything because of the amount of drugs that they were giving me because I the pain was so bad. I just needed all the and all the drugs that I could get because they were going to airlift me, but they ended up taking me on an ambulance and I had to just deal with every single bump. Like the car was leaving Ave and

There was just so many bumps. Every time I hit a bump, it was like, ow, like, ow, like every time. Yeah, then I ended up going to the hospital. anything, because all the drugs. And the only thing was woke up, this a doctor or not, but this lady comes into the room and she has a screen and she rolls the screen in of my bed.

my parents are on the left and there's a priest that was at Auburnbury University. foot of my bed and the lady comes in and she's like, listen guys, I'm sorry son, your spinal cord is and you're never gonna walk remember I I look at her and I'm like, not even like if you give me 1 %

Like I said, all I I need is 1%. And she said, nope, sorry son, your gonna walk again. She said exact same thing again. And I literally told her, I looked at her and I I believe in miracles. And I just went back to sleep.

Joey Pontarelli (22:47)

goodness. Okay, and so your parents were there at that point too I imagine and so that was probably a crazy experience for them but wow. long were you in the hospital for?

AJ De La Rosa (22:54)

Yes.

So I in that hospital I was in there for two days, like one night, like two was in there for two nights. And in total for one month.

Joey Pontarelli (23:07)

and you had to go through different

surgeries.

AJ De La Rosa (23:12)

So I had one surgery, everything went well. And then I had a couple procedures after, but it wasn't like It was more of like a so it was like one surgery and like two procedures. And then I was as well.

Joey Pontarelli (23:26)

Did it become

more real when you were leaving the hospital, I imagine, in a wheelchair this was kind of the reality now? Was there any sort of hit you in the face moment then?

AJ De La Rosa (23:35)

I think the hit me in the face moment doing rehab. When you go into a place you look at these and you're just like, you're in a hospital and you go into this place where there's just whole bunch of other people in wheelchairs and a couple other people that also just went through the same exact injury and they're trying to And you go from being a college soccer player

to trying to sit up and you can't even sit up. Because you used to use your legs for everything and you can't even use your legs. So I was watching the videos of my rehab I could even put on a shoe. So I think that was a in the face and then also noticing when you're in these hospitals and you actually need a button to open the door. So I hit in the face moment when I realized I actually do need handicap parking.

Joey Pontarelli (24:19)

Yeah.

AJ De La Rosa (24:28)

I actually do need to press a button to open the door for me if it's too heavy. So it's like little things like that and just to think that, I mean, you would never ever think in your life that you would ever be in a wheelchair and you have to get fitted for a wheelchair.

Joey Pontarelli (24:29)

Yeah.

Super humbling and

and really like a major loss like I wanted to talk to you a little bit about like grieving and all and that was part of the reason I just asked that one question because I think like so often all of us whether it was like a major injury or you know like with my audience your parents getting divorced or your family just being super dysfunctional a very serious like sense of like I lost something I was deprived of something that was like supposed to be in my life or something that was in my life and then it was taken away

AJ De La Rosa (24:45)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (25:07)

And what that often requires is, well, it kind of happens to us and then we can kind of cooperate with it as like grieving, as kind of learning to accept that loss and going through any and all of the emotions that come along with it, which often are like anger and sadness and just kind of, like you went through like denial of like, can't believe this is happening. So there's some other stages too, yeah, I'm just curious, like, what was that process like for you? Was there like a grieving process for you and how did you experience that?

AJ De La Rosa (25:36)

So I think the grieving like the amount of grace like God gave me the accident, like there was no really grieving. I really enjoyed life and I was happy. But I think it came where

the hospital and I realized like I would see all my friends playing a sport and I'm like, wow, like I really wish I could play right now. the simple things of like going to a place that's packed or even like going to a sports event and you have to just wait in a line because you have to wait to get a certain ticket. I part of the grieving where at that point I'm just like.

I just want to be like normal, you know what I mean? Like I want to just sit in a this special treatment. it's it's like, it's like things like that that I think are the hardest part rather than the actual grieving that I'm in a Because ever since that moment in the I knew that this was God's plan this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. Right? So it wasn't really about the physical grieving or anything like that. It was more of just like,

the mental griefing, knowing that I cannot ever have this type of job, right? Like it won't be like, you know, it's just, so it's like like that where I think that was the mental like blocks where you get where you're just like, you're out watching your brothers play in a soccer game and you're just like, like, I wish I could just play. So I think it's like that, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (27:06)

Okay, no, that totally makes sense. And I could totally see how

kind of like normal everyday things, not being able to do them would be hard. I imagine, at least initially, I know you're very independent now, but the loss of independence, needing to rely on other people, like I can't imagine how hard that was. I would struggle so much with that.

AJ De La Rosa (27:24)

yeah, I mean, it's, so humbling when you have to go to Publix and or a shopping store or like literally any place that you need to go and get something. And something is all the way at the top, like, like the top shelf or there's a hanger all the way at the top or whatever. Like, you know how humbling it is. Like it really humbled me that I have to just talk to a random person and be like, Hey, like

I kinda need your help, can you help me get that bag of chips up there? So it literally happens to me every day where because I feel like as men, and as a man, you wanna just do it yourself. I just have to be humble and just let it go. And even using the While I was in the hospital, There was times where like...

I would use the restroom everywhere on the bed and random nurses would just come and pick everything up for me. And it's just so humbling. It was kind of embarrassing, at the same time, I would just like, I'll take it in. I'm like, all right, I just have to about it. I need help. It is what it is. Or even asking somebody to hold the door for you. Something that simple. like, it's kind of hard, but it's good.

Joey Pontarelli (28:34)

Yeah, no, I follow you man and gosh you've handled it with such poise

and grace I was curious, I think a lot of people are thinking this now, what about anger? Like did you have anger at God? Did you have anger at the guy who was driving the car? what was that like for you?

AJ De La Rosa (28:54)

So I think the anger aspect of it, I've never been like ever in my I don't think I've ever gotten like, I could get mad at people, a lover and like, I get mad at them, I'm just gonna end up like forgiving them after, like even if it's like an hour after, like I can never hold on up to a grudge.

or anything like that, like I'm it used to happen with my family all the time where if they get mad at me or I get mad at them, I always try to just make it up as fast as possible because I just like, I'm just a lover. But so I never really had anger and I just feel like that was never really like my personality. I was never like an angry person. I was just kind of go with the flow, and just happy.

Joey Pontarelli (29:25)

awesome.

Yeah, no, makes sense. Okay. even, I know you've said

multiple times, when it comes to like anger at God, like you didn't really, one, you didn't really see this as like this bad thing, which I think a lot of people would be tempted to see it that way. You even mentioned that it was like the best thing that happened to you. That's confusing for a lot of people. Would you explain that a little bit? Like how is this thing that was arguably traumatic, very traumatic, I would say, left you with this major injury.

would that be the best thing that's ever happened to you?

AJ De La Rosa (30:06)

So one thing I would say, me, so I'm just gonna say a little quick story. Me and my dad got about a month after the hospital. We were in the kitchen, my dad was cleaning up and had dinner and he was cleaning up the dishes and stuff and all my brothers are around and we're there just like talking and somebody said like, well the hospital was such a bad, like.

Like don't even remind me of the hospital. Like I don't even want to think about it. was just so, like it was literally so bad. my dad was saying that. And we were like, and I kind of felt a little offended. I was like, like, what do mean? Like, why is it bad? And he was like, AJ, you were literally paralyzed. You had people having to pick up all your poop. You had, you couldn't walk. We had to help you. We had to sleep there.

on the couch for you every night. I had missed so many days of work, was hurting, I have to ask so I have a question

would you want me to not be in a wheelchair right now, but you keep the same faith as what you had Or I'm in a wheelchair right now and you have I think maybe the faith that you have now. And it's because he always used to say like, wow, this accident, we're all fit, like we've all gotten closer to God. So I asked him that. I was like, that for me. was like,

you stupid? Like, this is an easy answer. Like, obviously I would want you to be I looked at him and I told him, I mean, that shows me where your faith is now. we were at the hospital.

We've changed so many people's lives through my accident. Like I've changed a lot of people's lives and I'm not trying to just like flex or people have gotten closer to God because of my And God did that for a reason. We met so many people. There has been to God. People have been praying for us. We've built a and it was just so good.

Like how could you not, like I honestly believe it was probably one of the best times of my life. Like there's so many conversions, so many people getting closer to God. People would go up to my dad and say, I haven't prayed a single day in my life and I've been praying for your son Like that is just something that I would be happy for the rest of my that person had a connection with God through my accident, because of my accident.

Joey Pontarelli (32:41)

Wow.

AJ De La Rosa (32:46)

I really believe that's why God chose me. And that's why I think I was so happy. It was a great time. I got closer to God and my faith grew. So why would I be mad at that? Like, it was a great time. I grew closer to God.

Joey Pontarelli (32:55)

Yeah. Wow. Okay. No, it's incredible. It's a beautiful perspective.

And remember you sharing with me just how you've been able to help other people. You'd mentioned that briefly. Let's go into that a little bit. So like, what good have you seen come from this maybe in your life and the lives of other people? You already mentioned a few things, but I'm just curious if there are any stories of, you know, where it's like so clear of like, wow, like this person was transformed or changed like you had mentioned.

AJ De La Rosa (33:23)

So one I mean my brother he was um, I mean he Not trying to put him on the spot, but he wasn't the best Person and when it comes to virtue he had a lot of vices I mean he had some virtue but he just wasn't living a life of faith and a life that God like to be honest and after my accident he was kind of in the middle part where he was dating this girl and

He didn't know if he wanted to marry her or not. He was trying to see if he wants to get engaged or not. And after this accident, ended up having a huge conversion ended up getting married March 1st and literally they got married in the church. She wasn't even a believer and she became a Catholic. is a really crazy story but.

had to do with my aunt. She ended up having like, it was like a huge miracle kind of thing where there was this random lady that came to her work and said, do you know somebody that's paralyzed? And my aunt worked at a bank and she was like one of the heads of the bank. And she was so confused when this random lady came to her office. I walked by her office saying my back hurts and I can't feel my legs. And the lady sits down she looks at my aunt and says, do you know somebody that's paralyzed? And my aunt is like, what?

Like, what are you talking about? She's like, yes, he was in a car accident and he's close to somebody that you love, which is my mom. My aunt and my mom were like really, really, really close. And she keeps she says, don't worry, his faith is gonna save him. And one day he's gonna wake up in the middle of the night having the urge to use the restroom and he's gonna get up and And he's gonna use his wheelchair for testimonies. And.

She said this and she's crying. She's like, what do you mean? You know he's gonna walk? Like she's like crying because she can't believe it. This is like two months after my accident. And then she looks at her and she says, and you, you have something too. The doctor told you don't drink coffee and don't eat rice. You have an eye doctor appointment next Tuesday. And all this stuff that this random lady that my aunt has never met in her life was getting this information. And my aunt is just there like, what is going on? How does she know I have an eye doctor appointment next Tuesday and that the doctor said to do this?

Joey Pontarelli (35:32)

the heck.

AJ De La Rosa (35:44)

She looks at my mom and she says, make sure that the medicines that she's giving you or that the doctor is giving you are correct. Make sure and tell the doctor to switch them. She goes to the eye doctor appointment She doesn't tell the They finish the procedure and by odds, eyes become absolutely bloodshot red because they messed up the dosage of the one was supposed to be the other one and they had to switch it.

She ends up converting and she ends up going to church that after that day, she's never seen her again. And at the bank before that, she used to be known as the She my aunt, said this stuff. My aunt was crying, Dr. Poemendga happens. happen to her eyes. She ends up converting, starts going

Joey Pontarelli (36:35)

Wow.

AJ De La Rosa (36:36)

she passed away.

that was her conversion. God wanted this accident to happen for her to have that have that messenger. I believe that that was to tell her and to help her get back to her faith and to show like I feel like in a way like God sometimes he shows like right he gives you like two of the time Mary Elizabeth.

Yeah, it's Elizabeth, right? Yeah. And that Elizabeth is also going to have a baby as well, just to show that this is true. Right. And I feel like, know. don't know if that lady, to my aunt's funeral. When I go to the funeral, there's a lot of her, like coworkers there and I asked them, it's like, I'm AJ and

Has that lady ever came back? Do you guys know who she is? And they literally look at me like, oh, you're AJ. Wow. Like, yeah, your aunt loved you so much. She could like she converted this, that blah, blah. And she pretty much said like, yeah, that lady was a crazy lady. We caught her the crazy lady and we haven't seen her since. So I so that was like Like, I'm like, for a reason. And if I would do it all over again from to know that my aunt could go to heaven

Joey Pontarelli (37:39)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Wow.

Joey Pontarelli (37:55)

If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry.com slash resources, or click on the link in the show notes.

AJ De La Rosa (38:23)

any of my family.

Joey Pontarelli (38:23)

No, it's beautiful.

AJ De La Rosa (38:24)

family members could know?

Joey Pontarelli (38:25)

you've shared so many other things that we don't have time to go into everything, but I remember being asked to like basically in the hospital who had gone through a just like your ability to like give them hope when they're at like the lowest point in their lives. Like that was really beautiful. Maybe I'm mixing up some of the details, but I know that was the gist of

And so just like, so it sounds like there's like almost like miracles happening because of this, like that flow from it. It's amazing. so much more I'm sure we could say, but I'm sure everyone's wondering like, did the dream part come true that she had mentioned?

AJ De La Rosa (38:48)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (39:01)

Okay.

AJ De La Rosa (39:02)

so the but I mean, I mean, I know I'm gonna walk one day and I know it's gonna happen. And a lot of people would probably say, I mean, the doctors told me it was severed. I go to the next hospital, not even airlifted again. I drive two and a half hours with a broken back to Miami. And we do a surgery there because my mom didn't like the way how they said like, never gonna walk again, it's severed.

and then they were gonna wait to give us a surgery like three days after the accident. So we ended up transferring to and Jackson Memorial and and then my mom literally asked the doctor, will he walk again? Like, is there a chance please? And the doctor says, it will be impossible for me to tell you that he will never walk again. His spinal cord It was just completely crushed. And.

I just find it crazy how it went from severed, I say I believe in miracles, two hour drive with a broken back to Miami and it goes from being severed to completely crushed and then impossible for me to tell you that you will never walk again. And now at this time in my life, I am walking with two hand crutches. So all, it's all God.

Joey Pontarelli (40:15)

So cool, so beautiful. man. Yeah, your story

is so amazing. I wanna give people more detail on what life is like now for you, but I wanna go back a little bit more talk a little bit about forgiveness. So I was curious if that has been a struggle for you. Maybe it hasn't, that's okay. what's forgiveness been like for you? And did you need to kind of forgive your friend who was driving or was it something that was easy? I'm curious where you're at with that.

AJ De La Rosa (40:42)

So, been, I mean, very I mean, by the grace of God, like, it's just been, like, so easy. I went I mean, I didn't really text him. I would So, once we got back to school the next semester, I kind of heard talks of maybe he's gonna come back, maybe he's not, because he was going through a lot of hell.

I can only imagine how anybody would how anybody could go through the fact that they made a mistake and somebody's caused, like somebody's having to deal with it, being paralyzed, you know? So he ended to school and at first I would drive around trying to just do my regular daily stuff and I noticed him one day and I was gonna go to him but he ended up walking the other way and the next time I saw him I was like, all right, I'm not letting him walk away from me.

And I rode up to him and I have like a little scooter on my wheelchair and I rode up to him and I was like, Chris, I want you to let you know, like I've been praying for you and I love you. And I know this might sound crazy, but thank you. Thank you for going that fast. And thank you for everything. Like God loves you and I love you. So don't worry about it no more. Like it's okay. Like So I mean, that's, I mean, he's really the only person I would have

And I just felt like it was easy because I know he made a everybody makes mistakes in their life. We can't just like ruin and like make them feel worse, you

Joey Pontarelli (42:07)

That's amazing and such a beautiful exchange that you had. I know a lot of people

struggle to forgive or they maybe never even got the opportunity because they're estranged from the person. So I'm really glad. And I bet that affected him. I don't know if you want to go into it further. It's okay if not, but I bet that affected him. Did he receive that well?

AJ De La Rosa (42:28)

no, yeah, he I mean, at he didn't think I was actually going go up to him and he ended up receiving it. And we ended up talking again after. And I kind of went more in what I meant when I like with what I was saying, because like I could only imagine him hearing thank you for everything. It was So I ended up talking to him again. But ever since that moment, it's like before that, it seemed like he was scared.

like to walk around campus, especially the semester before. And after I spoke to him, he became like more outgoing, talking to more people, and he just, he looked a lot better. And when I had that second conversation with him, it was even better. And then he was back to his regular self. At least that's what it seemed like to everybody.

Joey Pontarelli (43:10)

Yeah, no beautiful. mean, even that alone, man, it's like a miracle. Cause I know, you know, there's obviously countless

stories of people doing something they regret then carrying that weight on them maybe not getting forgiven. Maybe the person that harmed, carries a lot of anger toward them and unforgiveness. And know, that could take a toll as well. So it's like really beautiful that you were able to have that conversation, those conversations with him and just kind of resolve that. So, so good. So many lessons there.

you have managed to avoid falling into victim mentality. I know this is something that a lot of people today struggle with and I've been there myself where we, some bad happens to us and we tend to make that our identity and we tend to get like stuck and hoping maybe someone will come in and rescue us or just blaming the world, blaming everyone for our plate and not really doing anything

you know what victim mentality is, but just for everyone listening, such a big problem in our day. And so I'm curious, how have you struggled with that perhaps and how have you overcome it?

AJ De La Rosa (44:13)

So one thing I would say is that like with the victim mentality is that we're all gonna go through right? So we're all at some point in this victim mentality, right? So we all go through suffering and.

When I was in like ICU hospital, like of course, like when everybody visited me, I could have had that like victim mentality. But of the toughest, like the easiest things for me the toughest, the easiest thing was just look at the person that has had it, the has had the worst suffering and Why should I be complaining about me being paralyzed died on the cross for me?

So I think it was just more of having that perspective where I don't have it that bad. be a victim? I would go in the hospital and go to rehab and I see people that are not but they're, not paraplegics, but they're quadriplegics and they can't move their hands the right way.

So everybody, there's always gonna be that one has it worse than you. So why should I complain about it? Or why should I let that, why should I have that mentality when there's somebody that has it so much more worse than I do? I do not have it that bad. I'm actually grateful. Like when I was there and I saw people that couldn't move their fingers or on their arm muscles and I have all that, so why should I complain? I think it was just more of just like giving it to God. I think.

when you do it for somebody else it makes it a lot better.

Joey Pontarelli (45:39)

And I know you had mentioned elsewhere humility and humor have played

a role as well. Talk about that.

AJ De La Rosa (45:47)

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, I I mean, you just gotta joke about it. Like, I mean, I'm in a wheelchair. I understand it. Like, I can't like, whenever people like make jokes about it, you just gotta laugh. Like, it's funny and...

I mean, I used to make jokes like that before I was in a wheelchair and look at me now, I'm in a wheelchair now. So now I actually enjoy when people give me those jokes. And it's just like, if you don't live with humor, then everything's You just won't be happy. Like you just have to have humor and humility. Like exactly like seeing these people in rehab, having someone open the door for me. You know what I mean? It's just like the small things like that where

Joey Pontarelli (46:19)

Yeah.

AJ De La Rosa (46:30)

could easily, like something like that could easily just ruin somebody's day. mentality, you could just ruin it. you know what I mean? So it's like, you just gotta live your life. Just let it go. I mean, that's kind of, I'm very nonchalant, so I'm just like, if it's just not meant to be, then it's just not meant to be, you know? And sometimes I'm like,

Joey Pontarelli (46:31)

easily.

AJ De La Rosa (46:51)

People can't see me because I'm so low to the ground. So when they're looking around, they can't really see me. if I ever ask for somebody to open the door, they kind of just keep going. I'm just like, that's OK. They didn't see me. And they just go in. So I feel like you have to live your life with humor

Joey Pontarelli (46:58)

Yeah, I love it. No, great principles, great virtues, I guess we could say. there any

books or podcasts or content that was especially helpful for you in the midst of all this suffering?

AJ De La Rosa (47:16)

there wasn't really no content or books or anything like It was more And I think that is just what really helped me. and every single person I've ever met in during that time they contacted me, which was crazy. And...

Like I think community is so important. Like if anybody's ever going through like suffering or depression, like, or just not happy, if you get in a community that entire life. We ran a soccer organization when I was a nonprofit soccer organization with over 600 kids.

My dad did it. He said, I'm going to be the commissioner of the league. And I cried. I'm like, what? We're losing time. we're a family. And I was younger. was like, what do mean? Our weekends, we're never going to be able to go places. Our whole life is ruined. You're going to be the commissioner of the league. We're not going to have no time to have fun with you anymore.

And now, like about two years before my accident, he stopped doing the league and really sad. I was like, dang, you're giving it up. Like that's kind of and we would have never been in that community and serving people, we would have never gotten the amount of love that we've gotten after my accident.

And I feel like that was something that was just like so important to me, the community, the amount of like kids that I didn't think knew me, but they knew me. And before games, they would say AJ on three, AJ on three, and say my name, like before their games. Like girls I've never met before in my life, but I feel like that's why community is so important. My best friends that came and visited me in the hospital, like.

everywhere that came and visited me, wrote to me, it was so nice to just know that I was loved. Because I think we all forget that we're all loved. You know, it could be that one person that loves you, but with something like this, it could just

Joey Pontarelli (49:12)

Yeah, no, I love that. And such a beautiful principle to like the community principle of the love principle, but also

just this idea that like when you give good things, you do good for people kind of ends up coming back to you in so many real ways. I know some people would call it karma or whatever, but I it's just such a real part of life that if you just try to help people and do good to them, then they'll return the favor. They'll help you. even if it's something like way down the road, it's really beautiful. it in my life too.

What if someone's listening right now and they're like, suffering a lot I went through an injury or trauma or anything that is really affecting them pain suffering in their lives they're not really sure how to build community. They kind of understand like yeah, I need people around me to love curious like what steps would you recommend that they take to kind of add that into their life?

AJ De La Rosa (50:02)

say is there's a community for literally everyone, right? Like might think that you're alone, but there really is a for everybody. Like when I first got into the wheelchair, there was for a whole bunch of people that are in wheelchairs and they would have groups every day. But I think you just have to be open

feel like with everything in life, you just have to just completely be open to it and know it's gonna work out. And if it's not the community for you, there's other ones, right? And I just feel like you really have to be open to it. And once you become open to it, that's when I really believe that there'll be a lot of gifts that come from I wasn't to my the commissioner of the soccer league, doing it. And...

I kind just did it because he was doing it and it ended up being probably one of the most best things in my life. open to it, let it go. I mean, if you're not religious, there's still going to be gifts that come from it. And if you are, God's going to work through you. So.

That's I think that's what I would say, because I mean, just you just have take a chance. You have to. I mean, even with my friends from like, remember what I said earlier, I thought homeschool kids were weird and my best friends here in Ave were homeschooled. I took a chance because I really enjoyed hanging out with them. And if I were to told my friends back home, yeah, all my friends now are are homeschooled. They would all question me.

Joey Pontarelli (51:14)

so funny.

He

And they're normal.

AJ De La Rosa (51:31)

And I just, yeah, I just took my, I just took a chance and it's not really taking a chance, but I became really close friends with them and now they're gonna be my friends for life. So, yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (51:36)

That's so good. No, I love that. So many good pieces of advice. couple of things from my experience, if it's okay, I wanted to add was,

I think when it comes to community, I think that openness piece is so huge, because sometimes we get closed off. And I think so often, community that maybe you need is often, not always, often like right in front of you in some ways. I think so often we get closed off to like the people around us, the people that we maybe see, you know, at school or.

at work or at the gym or at church, wherever. Of course, we want high quality people, people who are gonna call us on to live good, virtuous So wherever those people are, instead of maybe longing for something like, I don't know, abstractly out there somewhere, it's like try investing in those relationships. get a meal group of people that you know them over and cook for them or just hang out, get coffee, go on a walk, do something.

that would kinda strengthen those relationships. one of the things that was so helpful for me growing up was just understanding that as humans, we really just bond in one of two Through conversations like we're having through experiences, through doing things together. That's And so, in what ways can you have some conversations, and what ways can you do some experiences? And one of the things with conversations I've learned is,

kind of this core, like foundational skill is just asking good questions. You don't need to be able to be a savant at conversations, but you just learn how to ask some good questions. it's amazing, like if you ask good questions, like people will give like pretty amazing answers. That's one thing. And then when it comes to experiences, I've learned that, have to obviously find the balance between doing things maybe that you wanna do and doing things that other people wanna do. And so I think that's really beautiful if you can find the common ground and then do those things together.

AJ De La Rosa (53:07)

Yeah, for sure.

Joey Pontarelli (53:15)

And I know this stuff is like basic common sense, but I think it's been so helpful for me, especially when I was growing just understand like these are how relationships are built. This is how community is built. we don't need to go of find it elsewhere, travel the world or whatever. You can actually like kind of blossom like wherever you're planted. Anything you'd add to that?

AJ De La Rosa (53:37)

No, yeah, I mean, I totally agree. I the way I met that I've built community with, it's what things that like, I mean, I guess what I could say is.

whatever you like in your life, there's a community for it. And like, I was a soccer player, my community was a whole bunch of other people that played soccer. My friends now, I love sports, they love sports, and we just grew together. And the more you hang out with somebody, the more you're gonna get closer with them. It's just the way it is.

Joey Pontarelli (54:01)

So good, so good, no. I think this is helpful, especially for someone who's maybe feeling stuck and they're like, I need that community, I know but

they maybe haven't done it. And the final thing I would just kind of challenge people to would be to actually act. Don't just think about this. Hopefully this advice is helpful, if you're looking for a specific community around maybe some suffering you've been through, do some Google searches, search on YouTube, whatever it looks like. Ask people in your life if they're aware of anything like that.

Or if it's more basic, like with friends, text someone, call someone, get something set up, get something on the calendar. It really could be as simple as that. I know there's sometimes kind of barriers in our minds, but I think we need to push through those things to make this happen. And when we do, I've found is even sometimes I'm like, I don't know if I really want to go put all the effort into go see friends or do this thing or that when I do, I'm always grateful. I'm always happy that I spent good quality time with people that I care about. So anyway.

That's a challenge for everyone listening a struggle for AJ, there's so much more we could talk about. I'm curious if you would kind of like close the story and just let us know like what is life like for you now? I know there's a lot of cool things happening in your life. So tell us a little bit about are you medication free and are you still doing therapy? I'm curious about all that.

AJ De La Rosa (55:20)

So my life now, mean, from the beginning of my accent to now, it is like literally completely different. I was watching videos and like, like remember like little stuff earlier, like I and just all that stuff. Like it's just so much easier. I live completely independent. So I could cook on my own, do everything on my own, take showers, use the restroom, everything on my own. Medication, the only medication I really take is like,

just like ibuprofen or something like that, but I was on medication for my nerve pain. I still go through a lot of suffering with like nerve pain, stomach problems and just different things, but everything has been slowly getting better. I have more movement in my legs. I could pretty much use all my muscles for my knee up.

And I'm still missing my calf muscles and like my foot muscles, but from the knee up, could, I could pretty much move everything. So at that point, all I need is just more maybe some physical therapy to help me just keep growing that are like my thighs, hamstrings and stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, life is great. I'm getting married my fiance is going to be graduating and give more talks and.

playing golf now. I can play golf. I have a machine that helps me play golf. So I'm pretty active in the way of, I love sports. So I'm so just trying to keep playing sports and hang out with friends and do all the normal things a do.

Joey Pontarelli (56:40)

so good and congrats on the engagement and upcoming marriage. I'm super pumped for you and yeah just excited

to see where the rest of your story brings you and I know you're getting more into like speaking at schools and churches and places like that so anyone listening make sure to check AJ out definitely worth bringing him in and know especially if there's I know eventually you might into this maybe I'm teasing it too much

into mentoring people who are suffering. So I think there's something there to be said too. So if people want to find out more about you and what you offer, could they go? How could they contact you?

AJ De La Rosa (57:17)

So, mean, on Instagram, AJoftherose, which of the roses, like Della Rosa, that's my last name, but it's AJoftherose on Instagram and on YouTube and pretty much on everything. It's just AJoftherose. And you can contact me there by even just sending me like a DM and I'm open to talk to whoever. I always answer my DMs if anybody ever needs help or anything like that. yeah, that's pretty much it.

Joey Pontarelli (57:36)

Yeah, man. And we'll put all that in the show notes for you guys so you can reach out to AJ. So good, man. It's been so good talking

with you. I'm just amazed at you and how you've responded to this so well and with just such maturity and grace. Anyway, yeah, I'm that you're in my life and my family's life and my brother's life, especially JP. I you guys are tight. And that's my youngest brother for everyone

And so yeah, thank you. Thank you for being here. And I wanna just give you, yeah, you're the man. This is awesome. yeah, just you're such an inspiring source. It's help a lot of people. So I wanna give you the final word. Like what final advice or encouragement would you offer to someone listening right now, especially someone suffering, whether they went through some major injury or they were just or some sort of suffering right now. final advice and encouragement would you give them?

AJ De La Rosa (58:11)

No, yeah, thank you, Joey. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

is my final words about suffering, going through it is you're not alone. You're literally never And I'm going through suffering. Every single person on this earth goes through And even Jesus Christ himself, my God, our God.

So what I would say is that you're not alone and that if you ever need help, there's always a place that you'd go to and just have humor and humility about it. And literally, Everything's gonna be great. I know that might be hard to understand now,

Joey Pontarelli (59:08)

What an amazing story, what an amazing man. I'm so impressed with if you wanna follow him and learn more from him, go ahead and follow him on social media. You'll find all of his social handles in the show notes. And with wraps up this episode. If this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube. You'll obviously avoid missing future you'll actually help us reach more people by doing that. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the really appreciate that feedback and that also helps the podcast.

closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle build a better life and we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who you can go back change the beginning, you can start where you are and change the ending.

#145: Mother Wounds, “Parts Work” Therapy, & Healing from a Broken Family | Dr. Gerry Crete

Growing up, Dr. Gerry experienced deep turmoil at home. His father was abusive, and his parents’ marriage was full of conflict. When they eventually divorced, he felt like he lost both parents. Feeling alone, he became highly independent. 

Thankfully, he found healing, and today he helps others heal as a therapist. In this episode, we discuss:

• How Internal Family Systems (IFS) and “parts work” can help you heal emotional wounds and improve your relationships.

• The way our parts interact with our significant other—and how to avoid choosing a spouse from a wounded part of you.

• What a mother wound is and how it affects you

• How movies like Inside Out, Encanto, and even Avengers’ movies illustrate “parts work” and the healing journey.

If you have perhaps sustained a mother wound or want to heal using Internal Family Systems, this episode is for you.

Get Dakota’s FREE Guide: The Biggest Fitness Mistakes to Avoid

Buy Dr. Gerry’s Book: Litanies of the Heart: Relieving Post-Traumatic Stress and Calming Anxiety through Healing Our Parts

View Dr. Gerry’s Team or schedule a FREE 15 min consult

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Dr. Gerry (00:00.142)

This is not all about narcissism or just self-focused kind of stuff. No, this is about loving ourselves properly. And when we do love ourselves properly, as we do develop this harmony, we are able to love others so much better. When we're young, we're not well equipped to cope. There's a part of me that wants to get everything done. And there's a part of me going, why can't you just relax? Why can't you chill out? Part of the reason why the part is stuck there is because of usually it's some kind of traumatic.

What are mother wounds?

Dr. Gerry (00:29.678)

painful thing. They're also holding strong emotions attached to that, that the system has said, whoa, we can't handle that because they haven't been processed or whatever.

I wanted to transition a little bit to movies because I think it's another great way of understanding parts work.

Welcome to the Resort Podcast. I'm Joey Pantarelli. If you come from a divorced or a broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. guest today is Dr. Jerry Creed. He founded Transformation Counseling and Coaching. He authored Litanies of the Heart, relieving post-traumatic stress and calming anxiety through healing our parts. He's a therapist with experience in trauma and anxiety disorders. Dr. Creed.

This trained also in internal family systems and ego state therapy. He's also an EMDR certified therapist and consultant. Dr. Creed worked with individuals, couples and families and he teaches at St. Vincent's Seminary in La Trobe, Pennsylvania. Growing up, Dr. Jerry experienced deep turmoil at home. His father was abusive and his parents' marriage were just full of conflict. When they eventually did divorce, even though was his dad who left the home, he really felt like he lost both parents and as you can expect, that left him feeling really alone. So he became very independent.

Now, thankfully he found a lot of healing and today he helps others heal as a therapist. In this episode, we discuss how his family's dysfunction and his parents' divorce affected him and how he healed, how internal family systems and parts work can help you heal and improve your relationships, how our parts interact with our significant other, boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse, and how to avoid choosing a spouse from a wounded partner. Really important part of the conversation. We talk about what a mother wound is and how it affects you and how movies like Inside Out.

Dr. Gerry (02:03.054)

you

Joey (02:10.006)

and even the Avengers movies illustrate parts work and the healing journey. And so if you perhaps have sustained a mother wound or you want to find some healing using internal family systems, this episode is for you. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, I'm really glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode. With that, here's our conversation.

Joey (02:42.84)

Dr. Jerry, so good to have you on the show. We haven't wanted to do this for a while. Welcome. I want to start with maybe an obvious question, kind of a deep question, is why do care so much about helping people and helping them heal?

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Gerry (02:55.726)

That is a big question. I mean, I think some of it goes back to my own childhood and my own upbringing and even, you know, having, you know, had different kinds of trauma, different forms of abuse as a child, different parents, you know, splitting up. very difficult relationships sometimes there and, you know, and yet at the same time, discovering some resilience, obviously, but also discovering God, discovering my faith.

exploring that, being able to heal to some extent through communities, through working with people and the experience of growth, if you will, and healing and my own life and my own journey, still not done, still quite imperfect. But nevertheless, the journey has led me just in wanting to help people, you know, to whatever extent that I've experienced the love and healing of God and also often through people. I want to impart that too.

So a big part of my desire to help others is partly because of the grace that I've received. So that's informed it. And I think some of that is just who I am and who God made me. Like there is an aspect of just my own personality, my different, my inner workings that, you know, I'm fascinated by, right? And I'm, I have a definitely, there's a parts of me that are very intellectual and want to research and write and I love that aspect of me. And then there's another parts of me that are more relating, right?

care about connection, care about relating with others and like to see people connect and grow and really have healthy relationships. So some of that is just values that are kind of embedded in, in who I am as I've discovered myself. Love that.

Yeah, I remember hearing, I think, John Eldred say something like, you he's a counselor by training, but also by intuition. And you very much so hit me as like someone in the same vein, which is beautiful. You mentioned that your parents split, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing like what happened there. And yeah, how did that affect you, especially because everyone listening right now, you know, comes from a dysfunctional family, divorced family.

Dr. Gerry (04:58.358)

separated family. So my parents had a very unhealthy relationship. My dad himself had a very traumatic childhood of his own. And know, he got married, he was a very kind of like, I would say at this point, like a broken person, but he was abusive. So I have, you know, pretty serious father wound issue there. And so in fact, my parents would fight. And, you know, I can even recall many times their fighting was very frightening.

you know, for me as a child. And so in that process too, I probably like idealized my mother a little in that, but because she was the parent who was the responsible one, she was a parent who was nurturing, she was a parent who was, you know, reliable. So at some point I can remember wishing my parents were divorced. Like I, it was so unhappy, it was so much turmoil and chaos in the home that I kind of...

please end it and the kind of thing. the case of my situation, my mother, she worked as a secretary. She worked as an administrative jobs, wasn't highly paid or anything, but she was always had a job and she was security. Whereas my dad was always losing his jobs or different, know, was not reliable in that way. And I just thought, well, what, you know, what do we need him for? in a way, like we can't, get away from this pain and all this stress and everything else.

Eventually there was kind of a big event that happened that was where he left. I don't know how much you want me get into my story. This isn't my therapy session or anything, but he left and so that was in early high school, I think. But then there was the issue of my mother going through depression, her going through lot of stress and disconnection. So in a way, when my parents divorced, there was a sense in which I lost both parents.

in that and so this was me in high school so yeah so I understand the experience of divorce but I know it's different for different people for some people it's losing a parent that they were attached to in my case there was a sense of both like losing I was wanting a relationship with my mom to continue and it felt very disrupted so it felt very alone

Dr. Gerry (07:12.362)

actually, and probably the refuge for me were my friends. I had a girlfriend at the time, but I also think that through that, I just became very independent. And I figured I have to, you know, sell things on my own and do things on my own. If anything's going to happen, if anything's going to change in a way that's good and in a way that's bad, right? I learned that sort of a good thing to be independent in a way, but it was sad because it took me a while to learn that I could trust people, you know.

Thanks for sharing all that. And I definitely have felt similar with the whole independence, like quality, where in some environments, like the business world, that independence is like very valuable, very good. And then, but in relationships, like you said, it can be really, make things really difficult. I've definitely experienced that in my dating relationships, friendships, and especially within my marriage. And so yeah, I definitely relate with you on that. yeah, I can relate with you too on the side of losing both parents. It was a similar situation.

With my family, details were different, but dad left and mom was left to kind of take care of everything. And it was just too much, like you said, for her to just do it all. And so naturally us kids got neglected. And so, especially because I was really attached to my dad, that was like a major loss for me. And I loved my mom too, but she was just so occupied and busy that it was definitely a tricky situation. And that's where, like you said, you kind of, as a kid, you get this feeling that like, well, it's just like me against the world. Like I better figure it out because no one's really got my back. And so I'm going to.

have to just kind of push forward. And we've seen that a lot with the young people that we serve as well. And so, yeah, it can relate on so much of that.

Yeah, yeah. I think that, not that I didn't make some mistakes or do some things that I regret, but I did end up kind of finding in that process, you know, if you will, a relationship with Christ. And I did find a relationship also in community, in faith communities, even in high school. So that was kind of life changing, I think, for me, because I feel like if I didn't have that, could have, it would have gone in a very different direction my whole life.

Dr. Gerry (09:14.254)

And so I'm really grateful. So even though I guess I felt I feel kind of like abandoned, I suppose, by parents, you know, God provided. I had to be willing, I had to be open, but He was providing for me things that I needed. The other element of it is that being open to whatever suffering, whatever pain that one experiences in being open to how that in God, in Christ, can be transformed for good. So

To get back ultimately to the question you asked me initially about like, do I even, why do I want to help people? Like there's a sense in which, well, when I help, if I'm working with people, like I'm a counselor, right? So if I'm helping people resolve wounds and hurts and whether they're mother wounds or father wounds or whatever traumas from their life, there's a part of me that feels like I'm being a vehicle for that. And so God is working through me to make a positive difference. And so much of my ability to empathize and understand

and make sense of, connect with, is partly because of what I experienced. So I feel like I can use those things. Sometimes we don't see that when we're younger, usually. It takes a while for us to recognize how our suffering can be redemptive, it can be transformative.

I can't agree more. Yeah, I think it's important to say that because sometimes when we're stuck in the midst of it, it can feel so overwhelming. We can feel swallowed by it. We can feel like, you know, it's senseless and there's no purpose to it. But it's almost like we're stuck in the middle of a story. And I know we're going to get into stories and movies a little bit later, but we're literally like in the beginning or the middle of the story. We haven't really seen how it ends yet. And you know, if you leave a movie earlier, stop reading a book.

in middle, you're not gonna see the resolution. And I do believe maybe life is messy and there's not ever maybe perfect resolutions to everything, but there are resolutions. I firmly believe that. And I've seen that in my own life too. And one of the resolutions for me has been that, there's been, especially men in my life who have mentored me and kind of stepped into that father role, kind of making up in many ways for what I lacked at home. so, and I have a good relationship with my dad now. I love him. But if I'm honest, there were definitely certain ways in which it...

Joey (11:23.534)

there was like a deprivation there. so, but yeah, it's cool to see. And it's cool that I love seeing, you know, how you're using something that was painful to you. You've grown from it and now you're using it to help other people to empathize and all that. So, good. One thing I wanted to mention too, for everyone listening, sometimes the young people we work with feel some level of guilt for wanting their parents to get divorced, like you had mentioned. And I think one of the most helpful things on this topic has been just understanding that there's kind of, there's two categories of divorce. I know you know this, but for everyone listening,

Dr. Paul Amato is at Penn State, he's a sociologist there and he's done a ton of research on this topic and basically he says, typically marriages that end in divorce fit into one of two categories, high conflict or low conflict. High conflict is what you might imagine, like what you were describing Dr. Jerry, of like, there's a lot of just visible dysfunction, there's bad fighting, there might be abuse, violence, things like that. And in those situations, the children do benefit from a split.

You know, maybe it's temporary to a lot of some healing to happen. Maybe it's so serious that it needs to be more permanent, but that accounts for about 30 % of divorces according to the motto. And on the flip side, you have low conflict, which is situations where from the kid's perspective, at least, and I should have said that with high conflict, high conflict, the kids like kind of observe it all, they're privy to it. In low conflict, the kids are kind of hidden far from it, or at least it's more covert. It's hidden from their eyes. They kind of assume and think everything's fine, even if they have like an idea that maybe things aren't perfect, things are kind of dysfunctional.

it's not to that same high degree. And so when a divorce happens in those families, it really comes out of the blue. It really hits them in the back of the head and they're like, wow, I never saw this coming. And so I found that to be really helpful to understand that there's those two major kind of categories and in the high conflict situation, it makes sense that someone would want to get out of that.

And in the low conflict, it makes sense that someone would just say, my goodness, this was just like taken out from underneath me. Like, who will I be able to trust? Like if this thing, my family, which was supposed to be the most permanent, the most foundational thing in the world is taken from me, like what's not going to fall apart in my life.

Dr. Gerry (13:21.102)

No, I like what you say there. And I think that's important distinction. I've grounded a little bit around security too. So if you have a relationship, a parental relationship, a family that feels secure to you, and then suddenly you find out, my parents are having a divorce and I had no idea. That is a sudden trauma because it's like, I thought I was in a safe place and all of a sudden I'm not. Whereas the high conflict example you gave, maybe since as long as they can remember, there has always been insecurity.

So you go from insecurity, which is your normal, and wanting the divorce feels like moving to security, in some level. I mean, maybe not perfect security, but at least better than what was there. So, I don't know, for me, that's how I kind of frame it, a little bit is around that, safety and security.

Yeah, no, that's a great way to frame it because there are so many variables and you know, I think that model that a motto gives is like helpful, but there's, know, it's like every model there's imperfections in it. So I really like what you said about that. And maybe we'll have to do a whole another show on that topic of like attachment theory and everything. Um, because it's such an important topic, but yeah. Um, thank you for going into all that for sharing. I want to pivot a little bit to talk about the type of therapy that you do, uh, with parts work. And so starting out to someone listening who has never heard of.

Parts work and parts, like what do we mean when we're talking about that?

The whole idea of parts work and the most well-known at the moment type of parts work is called internal family systems, IFS. There's other models that do exist and have existed, but this sort of, this type of therapy is recognizing that within our mind, if you will, within our heart, if you will, inside us, there's a multiplicity or there are different parts. You could say sub-personality maybe.

Dr. Gerry (15:09.614)

but there's different parts that exist in a sense, uh, or at least phenomenologically exist. And they represent a different parts of us. And so if we treat the human being, the human person, like they're just one thing, your personality is just one thing. I think we are missing a whole lot. And once I learned about multiplicity, about the fact that, we have different parts within and you start working with your different parts.

So the therapy is about get connecting inside, looking inside, discovering all these different parts. And this is not talking about multiple personality disorder, anything like that. That's an extreme disorder of one's parts, but we naturally have different aspects of self. And so one way I would look at it would be like, there are a part of me as a, a manager more type of part, who's going to be super good with getting work done.

You know, I'm task oriented, that shows up for me when it may be in a job, shows up for me around the house, maybe if I am organized or whatever. So like, have a part that's like task oriented, right? And when you meet that part of me, if he's, if he's a little bit focused, he's going to be like not paying very much attention to you. And he's going to be like wanting to get his job done possibly as an example. And then, but I have another part of me that, Hey, is kind of chill and just wants to like, Hey, I want to just relax.

You know, uh, smoke my pipe and watch, you know, a movie and just chill out. Well, that's a different part of me that if you encountered him, this part of aspect of me, then you would have a very different impression of who I am. Right. So you could say there's different roles, right? So my parts have different roles. Um, so that, I don't know that gives you some sense of what parts are, but when you're working with people, we recognize that these parts, a lot of these parts I just described like.

manager parts or this other more relaxed and chilled out part, they're all kind of, they are often protecting. They have roles, but they're often protecting. And one of their jobs, especially the manager ones, is to protect us from being overwhelmed by pain or shame or fear or any emotion, or maybe a very disturbing memory or whatever. They're protecting us from being overwhelmed as a system. And what we learned is that when you look past those

Dr. Gerry (17:36.652)

protective manager awesome parts, but when you look past them, we have other parts that we call exiles and those those parts that they're often show up. We could be connect with them like often it's they show up as children or adolescents not always, but most of the time and it's because those parts are kind of stuck often in time if you will and so or developmentally they're still in the place they were and part of the reason why the part is stuck there is because of usually it's kind of some kind of

traumatic, painful thing. So those exiled parts are holding those difficult memories, if you will, and they're off. But what can happen, though, is they're also holding strong emotions attached to that. But the system has said, whoa, we can't handle that because they haven't been processed or whatever it is. And so we've got to exile it keep it away. But it's really just being tucked in our unconscious mind. And when we're not obviously we're not conscious, all this is going on.

But something happens, right? Maybe somebody says something unkind to me or somebody says something happens, something bad takes place or whatever that triggers those exiled parts. And then they suddenly show up in some way by flooding my system. those emotions are connected to sometimes those past things. And so my system is flooded. And so then I have other protective parts that leap into action to like shove that back.

Right. And that can be anything from alcohol consumption or drug consumption. It can be like anger, rage or something. It can be like, can just be numbing out in some way, binge watching TV, binge video games, whatever. Like these are all like reactive things to, whoa, keep that exile at bay. Meanwhile, we have other parts of our system with the role of being like a manager to make sure that never even gets to that point. So.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that we've got this whole little system going on inside and the therapy, the parts work therapy is about connecting with and helping all these different parts within us. all parts of you, they're me, right? And helping them be healthy, bringing those dials home, loving them and giving them what they needed, helping those protective parts do their job in a healthier way. And then what happens in the end is, or in the end, it's an ongoing thing for most people.

Dr. Gerry (19:57.602)

But we developed this inner harmony. Our inner system is healthier. Our inner family, if you will, is a happier functional family. And until I learned about parts work, I feel like I never quite got there often with clients because there's always something not addressed. And now I'm able to address so much more in this kind of work.

I love that. So much there. So much there. I love what you said about the kind of exiled parts of you being stuck in time. I remember hearing a little bit about kind of how the brain works and trauma and how when you go through a traumatic event, the logical side of your brain, at least the two part brain theory says that that logical side of your brain that's, know, calculation and language constricts and the emotional part like takes over. But that part of the brain, at least with this one theory that I'd heard of, it doesn't have a sense of time. So literally like baked into our

neurobiology, least the science that I had learned, there's like literally that part of you that's stuck as a 10 year old kid, as a 12 year old kid, and it might show up in an argument with your boyfriend, your girlfriend, your spouse. I'm curious kind of in that realm, especially with relationships, because that's a major pain point for our audience. How do these parts, especially the exiled parts, maybe typically show up in relationships and cause maybe problems? I don't know if that's the right term to use, but cause some conflict or cause some

lack of harmony within the relationship. If you like me come from a broken family, you've probably experienced a lot of difficult emotions and it's easy to deal with them in unhealthy ways. But one healthy habit that's helped me working out consistently and eating how my body was made to be fed. It keeps my body healthy and the endorphins help me feel happier and better navigate tough emotions. But I know it's not easy to start exercising or to be more consistent with it. You might be thinking, I don't know what I'm doing. I have no time.

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Joey (22:11.618)

go to dakotalanfitness.com. Dakota is actually giving away for free his PDF guide, the biggest fitness mistakes to avoid. Just click the link in the show notes.

Yeah, yeah, it's a whole topic and it's a great one. I'll mention a few things just come to mind that might be issues that come up. Here's the thing, part of this whole notion and this understanding is that we have a core self, I would say in most self, you say Paul's language, but we have an interior self. Even in the secular world of internal family systems, they identify a self as somehow different from parts, but it's a core of the

It's sort of the core spiritual center of the personality. I have come to see it as the best representation of the image of God within the soul. So we have this inmost self that is the best, most representation of who we are at a deep level as beloved child of God. All right, so I just want to preface that we have this self, okay? And that what happens is our parts are busy, are more like...

busy, if you will, like they're not there. have tasks and their roles and like I was describing. so, and they're managing life, if you will. And so what can happen is that a part that is burdened with something, right? Either maybe it's a belief, like I'm not good enough. So let's say if the manager part, that task manager that I was talking about earlier, let's say not only is he the task manager, like he's busy doing stuff because we need parts that do stuff, but he's burdened with this belief of I'm not good enough. Well, then

What's gonna happen to his role? Like he's gonna be more like having to prove himself, always having to do more, always having to do more, having to prove myself, blah, prove, prove, right? And the way we would see that is that that part is blended in or that part is like eclipsing, if you will, our core in most self, right? And so when we're in a relationship with somebody, what are we encountering in their personality? Well, we might be encountering a part that has a burden and it's...

Dr. Gerry (24:10.35)

Hovering up in a way sort of riding the bus if you will and we're not accessing our core spiritual center of who we are Maybe we are a little you know, it's not always a perfect thing Like it's it's a little bit like a cloudy day some Sun gets through sometimes but it's dominantly being being covered up So when we have a manager part that is that is coping or whatever or maybe it's a we call the other type of protectors some of them firefighters so we have manager pipes that are

proactively doing things and we have firefighters that are like busy putting out fires, right? They're Reacting and so one way to react is to isolate So we may have a part that just isolates away, right? So I know I do like I have had parts that are task managers and I've had parts that will void and Isolate and just go off into my own little whole hobbit hole, right? So if you talk about relationships, so whether it's in my case my wife or anybody are they encountering me the

busy task manager who doesn't believe he's good enough? Are they encountering primarily the me that is the avoiding all bad feelings and wants to just hide away? What version, if you will, of me do they meet? Now, another thing that could happen would be if my exiled part, my little abused, you know, all alone child who's been hurt, right, and wounded at exile. mean, sometimes that part is the part in charge at times.

shows up. And so that's, that would be a wounded victim, if you will. So what happens when somebody else has, let's say a, let's say I'm a 20 something year old single guy, and with my sort of background, and I meet some girl who's also around that age, she's got a part that is also kind of a manager task manager type, like go get her, but who believes she's not good enough.

that burden. So she believes she has to help everybody else in order to feel good about herself. That's her burden. That's the part that's showing up for her. She meets encounters and say we have some night we meet, you know, we're on a date and then we stay all night till two in the morning talking because I have let my exile be the one that's in front. So she's meeting my woundedness and she wants to take care of

Dr. Gerry (26:31.384)

She wants to be that mother, whatever it is for that wounded part of me. And of course my wounded part is like eating it up. Yeah, I love it too. So I'm being, in my mind, being very vulnerable. She's being, we bond on that. And it's not that that's all bad. I'm not saying that's all wrong or bad, but that's the basis for the bonding, but an actual healthier relationship, right? And this is ideal, super ideal. None of us are completely there, but an ideal thing is that

It's not my parts that my friend or my spouse or my girlfriend encounters. It's my in most self and that, and that she's also, so there's a process to like let her parts step back and be able to just be real, be honest and come to that front of that place of vulnerability that's genuine. And, and we come from that place. Sometimes we can talk about our parts. I can tell her about my wounded exile guy. can tell her about my other parts. Right.

and she can hear about that and empathize. And then she's doing the same thing to me. So I'm encountering her core in myself. So that's a spiritual connection. Now we're like, we're connected to each other on this deep spiritual level of really seeing the other person for who they are, for the beloved child that God made in them. That's profound and unbelievably, unfortunately rare actually, but it can happen.

Now I'm presenting them as extremes and I think what happens is we get glimpses of it sometimes, right? So people know what I'm talking about but maybe they haven't experienced the fullness of it. That's kind of the goal. Anyway, so how it shows up in relationship is complicated.

Yeah, no, to say the least. mean, this is so insightful and I, you know, I know that some people might be thinking, man, this is kind of a lot to track with her. It might be overwhelming, but I, think like when you, when you put it in such plain terms, it's really helpful. And we definitely like thinking of my experience. There's certainly people in my life that like bring out a certain part of me, right? They maybe bring out the best in me or the worst in me, depending on who, you know, who it might be. And so I think, you know, we kind of see this in action.

Joey (28:41.09)

in everyday life, even if we can't like quite put the words to it. And so yeah, you you use a lot of the language like part of me, you know, I've heard you say before, part of me wants to do this and part of me wants to do that. And so I think there's a simple understanding there and everything you mentioned with kind of the task managers versus the firefighters makes so much sense too. I'm curious, you mentioned there's a process to kind of access that in most self. I know we can't go deep into it, but would you tease that out a little bit for us of like, okay, yeah, like if you're, know,

in a relationship or not in a relationship and you want to be, or you're looking towards marriage, it's like, man, I really want to make sure my true self or my inmost self, whatever you want to call it, is relating to this person's inmost self. But I'm kind of worried that they're not, that it's not, or the part of me is not. And so yeah, if you could give us a little teaser there, I know, you know, the book, I'm sure goes deeper into this too.

Yeah, yeah, the book does actually like walk through that process to some extent, but I can give you a little glimpse of it. So first of all, we have to have the awareness because I think most of the time, like we're not aware, like we just operate. And so we're not thinking about ourselves in this way. so parts are blending in with the self or covering it up or whatever. And this just happens and we're not.

conscious of it. So the first step is to just even recognize, yeah, I have an interior world. I have an interior space that has some complexity. we may have to pause, right, and notice these different parts that are in me. And what's cool and interesting is there's different ways to access them, but one cool way is through the body itself.

which is very hylomorphic if you're Thomistic, but it's to like recognize that in our physical bodies, our parts do kind of sometimes manifest in some way, especially the parts that are disturbed, the parts that are having some struggle. So one way is like when we're stressed about something, we will feel it in our physical body. So you would notice like, for me, it's my shoulders usually. So like I will do this with my shoulders, I'll tense up. And so to recognize, okay.

Dr. Gerry (30:44.16)

If I pause for a moment and say, my shoulders are tense, just have that awareness that I'm doing that. And to be able to pause for a moment and say, okay, what part of me is connected to that tension? Right? Because oftentimes I know for me that that tension in my shoulders, at least, is probably that taskmaster on some level, worried that I won't be able to get everything done that I'm supposed to. That might be one example. And so I'm literally tensing, right?

to be activated to do something, right? And yet at the same time, if I can't do anything, it's paralyzed and it's sort of stuck. So I'm noticing my body connecting with that taskmaster and then, or man, I should give him a better name, but that doer, the doer part. immediately right there, I'm noticing a part. And so as soon as I connect with a part, then I have created a little distance internally between me and that part. There's a space there.

So I can notice it. It might, could even notice me if you will, or notice other parts, but there's a little internal distance. It's not like, he's not on top of me, he's just over here. And then as you kind of get to know that part and let's, you know, kind of pay attention to it. I will often ask this question, like, how do I feel toward this part? All right, now something's going to show up. If something shows up that says, yeah, he's a pain in the butt or he never, he's no fun. Okay.

There's another part. Okay. So I've got a part that has an issue with that part of me. So there's an inner conflict that I have within me between there's a part of me that wants to get everything done. And there's a part of me going, why can't you just relax? Why can't you chill out? We're going crazy over here. Okay. So within me, I have these two different, different parts that aren't in agreement. All right. If I can notice that part, okay, fine. Notice you go back to the other part. How do I feel toward that part? See if something else shows up. And so what happens is you're sort of teasing out these different

usually these parts have some agenda. At some point in this process, what you might feel toward a part is compassion or understanding, some level of patience, sense of calm, as even love, if you will, some sense of curiosity about it, not a judgment, not an agenda, not trying to make something stop or go or do anything. It's just these natural qualities, I think, related to faith, and love.

Dr. Gerry (33:08.546)

But related to, think the biggest one is compassion is the biggest like usual. There we are. Now we've connected with our Inmo self, right? Cause the Inmo self is just, it doesn't really have a big agenda other than maybe harmony, healing maybe, but it's not like trying to fix things. It is simply really an expression of within us of God is love is in a sense, right? Cause that's God is love and we're in his image. So our Inmo self.

expresses just this natural love. And it was discovered by Dick Schwartz even, who's totally secular. And he was working with women who had eating disorders. Dick Schwartz, sorry, he's the founder of Internal Family Systems. founded, he created this sort of that way of approaching it in the 1980s. And he was working with women with eating disorders and he figured out this process of getting them to connect with their parts. And once

They teased out all these different parts and to a person that he worked with, every woman that he worked with, suddenly this self, he just called it the self, emerged that was just naturally compassionate, naturally courageous in some ways and creative, but just had this natural beauty, if you will. And it didn't matter how terrible their trauma history was or how messed up their lives were. It was innate. So I really think he naturally stumbled upon

the image of God in each human being, in a natural level. It's there. So anyhow, so this is what this process is. What I've realized in time was, yes, it's psychological and there's a psychological approach, art's work, but it's incredibly spiritual. And I'm like, and I was thinking to myself, well, if I believe that the Holy Spirit works through every human and dwells every, you know, baptized, whatever Christian, then

Imagine what it would be like for the Inmost Self to fully express, be open to God's love and open to the Holy Spirit, open to the virtues of faith, hope and love to then manifest throughout the whole system of person. I was thinking, well, as Christians doing this, should be, the transformation should be even more, right? Because it's like, we're not, every need we have ultimately can be filled.

Dr. Gerry (35:29.676)

by our inmost self in communion with the Trinity. Communion with And so to me this was all mind blowing. And it was coming together and beautiful. so this is so much of the work that I do is this approach now.

So good. No, could see why it's so effective too. And yeah, wow. No, I'm blown away. Well, just maybe let me try to summarize the process that you mentioned just for everyone listening and to see if I understood it. So essentially the first step of kind of getting to that in most self is just being aware of maybe what parts may be coming out, if that's the right way of saying, or just like have their, they're active maybe. So there's something happening. That part is like stepping in and taking some sort of a roll on. So identifying it, acknowledging it, bringing awareness to it.

And then it sounds like engaging it in some sort of like simple dialogue, simple conversation of kind of understand, which is meant to aim towards understanding. And ultimately the goal would be like some sort of compassion. And that would allow us to kind of quell the, maybe the concerns or the fears or whatever's bothering that part so that we can act from our inmost self. Is that somewhat it or what did I miss?

No, that's great. I love that. would just say that compassion isn't so much the goal, it's the beginning. because then there's this process of unburdening the part, whatever burdens it's carrying, helping the part learn its true role in the system. And so then there's work to be done, but which is cool. And then there's interactions. It sounds funny, but between our different parts and having the whole system. So it's a little bit like an orchestra, right? The self is this conductor, right? This is

Dick Schwartz has used this analogy, but it's a good one. And so if the self is like the sort of like the conductor, then, you know, all the parts, you want to get them in tune and you want to get them all the instruments working, you know, playing together and they all have, but they all have an important, you know, the wind instruments and the brass instruments. Everybody has a role. it's, and so when it's all together, it's beautiful. And I have then run with that and began to see how our inner world from a Christian perspective.

Dr. Gerry (37:41.442)

is very much like an inner temple or inner cathedral, if you will, or whatnot, that in fact, like, you know, the, inmost self is like the priest or the, I suppose minister, but like, is the, is the celebrant and then all the, we have all different roles. There's readers and this and that, and people and people in the congregation, like our inner world ultimately is meant to be this worshiping community within us that all of our parts then become.

oriented toward God and praising God, then our system, where all of us, if you will, is giving, is loving back to God, if you will, worshiping back to God. So to me again, yeah, there's this strong spiritual sense. I really draw on to great extent what when Christ says that we were to love God with our heart and everything, but we're to love our neighbor as ourself. And so I think that's a fascinating thing. And when you think about it, because we, hate ourselves, then we're not loving

You know what mean? Not loving others very well. So what does it mean to connect with all our different parts and help them be unburdened and help them be harmonious and all this business? Well, we're actually, this is not all about narcissism or just self-focused kind of stuff. No, this is about loving ourselves properly. And when we do love ourselves properly and when we do, it's always a work in progress, but as we do develop this harmony, we are able to love others so much better.

We're able to turn to our girlfriend or boyfriend or spouse, whoever. We understand their parts better, so we give them a lot of grace. But they're seeing a different us, truer us, if will. And so that is powerful. They're able to love others better and ultimately, like I was saying before, love God fully.

Really powerful and experience like you said more peace more harmony, but you know more joy more happiness We would probably say too and that's really beautiful quickly before I move to the next question I know you recently went to Italy and I'm curious What what part of you or parts of you came out in Italy because I've noticed for me when I've gone over there my grandparents Came from Italy and moved to America and so just love Italy But it brings out a different part of me than in America. So I'm just curious if you notice that

Dr. Gerry (39:51.406)

So I'd never been to Italy before, believe it or not. And so it was my first time in Rome. So was in Rome, I was in Florence. Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. I don't know what to say. It's a little tricky. I think I had very different parts with reactions. Some of them surprised me. You know, I found the city, you know, pretty bustly and that, but I mean, lot of big American cities are too. It was very aggressive. you know, I have a, like just getting coffee or something. Like I, what was happening to me was realizing like, wow.

I am not like how just being in a different cultural environment affects you and how helpless you are when you don't really know all the rules and you don't speak the main language. So there was a part of me that was super like felt a little overwhelmed and helpless. Like I remember when trying to get coffee and people jumping in front of me and that ends in the morning. And I was just like, okay, I don't know where I'm supposed to go. And I don't know the process because they're doing it different than they would ever do it in a, you know, in a caribou cafe.

You know, so there is some of that and the other parts of me were like it was interesting going to all the different. I went through, think, five holy doors, which was super cool. But, you know, go in a place like St. Peter's. was so excited to go to St. Peter's and it was gorgeous. But, you know, I know I was going through with people going through it. I didn't go there for mass or anything, but I did feel a little bit like I was in a museum. And so and I love museums, so don't get me wrong. But I felt like something about that.

I don't know, just felt like it was too much. I have a Benedictine spirit, also a Franciscan spirit, that loves the simplicity. So I was all excited and then I felt a little overwhelmed also just by, I I loved it, so don't get me wrong, but I felt a little bit like, but where do I go to meet God? I would go, there was a few other places that actually surprised me. Like even St. Paul's Basilica, it was still grand and everything.

But for some reason, I just felt more at home there. It felt more simple. It felt more something. And so I had different parts to reacting a little bit to the spirituality. so don't know if that's what you.

Joey (41:56.398)

Yeah, no, no, it's helpful. No, and I I was just curious that aspect of like going into a different culture That's why I was asking this question and 10 of your parts kind of being at play because I think those situations when we're not in our normal environment To me at least kind of bring out parts of you that maybe aren't brought out very often

And I remember that, yeah, on my first trip, you know, over there and going to different cultures too. Yeah. You're especially ones where you don't speak the language. You're certainly at like a, in a vulnerable position. Like you said, I remember feeling exactly the same way. And, and then, yeah, and then part of you, maybe I remember I would get like even very like frustrated with myself. like, wait, like, you know, even like driving over there, there's been times when I've driven in Italy and at first it was like, actually a really stressful experience for me.

Because I'm like, I don't know how to pay the tolls. don't know like, you know how to do this and do that and like everything I do in America and am I doing it right? Am I gonna screw it up? So anyway, it's just an interesting analogy if you will of kind of how this all works. So thank you for answering that. Feel free to comment on any of that but I wanted to transition a little bit to movies because I think it's another great way of understanding parts work. And so I'm curious, yeah, if there's any movies top of mind for you that kind of exhibit that these principles exhibit this framework.

A couple that come to mind to me that I wasn't sure if they fit here would be like Inside Out, Inside Out 2, Encanto. I've heard that there's some of this going on there, but you tell me, like, what movies would you say, like, exhibit this well?

I would say, I I enjoyed all three of those movies. I thought in Inside Out did a lot to help people understand parts. It's not like a perfect representation by any means, but to see the inner working of the main character Riley and her inner working like with all the different, they were represented by emotions, but these emotions seem to have their own emotions too. So they were like little parts.

Dr. Gerry (43:49.088)

And it made a lot of sense that people watch that film and kids would, of course, watch that film and it resonates. Even though parts can sometimes seem strange sometimes when you're trying to explain it, the reality is that it really does resonate with most people and Inside Out kind of proved that. So I think it does a great job of showing how there's complexity within. It does a great job of showing some inner conflicts that goes on within and so on. I would say one thing I point out, what I was unhappy about Inside Out.

was that I felt like there was no in most self. There was no that core spiritual center that wasn't represented. Like to some extent, the Joy character did that, but not really fully. So I felt like there was a missing piece, but what do you want? It's a Disney movie. It's not going to be, I can't expect it to fit all of my designs, but nevertheless, I felt like that was a missing piece that actually got addressed in Inside Out 2. They actually did, you know, imperfectly, but interestingly, showed

there's that like constellation thing that changed color and it went out at one point or it got thrown away or got replaced by and I thought, wow, that really does kind of show the spiritual center in some interesting ways. If on some level the image of God within like that core center, it got overwhelmed, it got replaced at one point, but it, you know, when it would go filter down or whatever. So I thought Inside Out 2 did a great job of showing the more the spiritual dimension.

And then, of course, the way they showed anxiety, the anxiety character, and when he was out of control and or she, I don't know if it was a he or she. And it was like going, you know, it was the losing control and was trying to do everything. And you could see. And I thought, wow, that did a great job of showing fight or flight. Like what an amazing thing. So I feel like those two movies like really did a lot to like normalize parts. It also did a lot. It had a pretty good understanding of trauma. And of course, it.

it has a very strong understanding of how human emotions work.

Joey (45:47.0)

Brilliant, yeah, no, I love it, all those things. And yeah, one of the things that hit me in the second inside out was how, yeah, just, all of our parts, right? It's not like we can cut one part of us off and throw it away and say, I'm kind of ashamed of that part, I don't want anything to do with it. But there needs to be this, like you said before, this harmony, this integration of even maybe the parts that we aren't crazy about. And so I thought that was neat too, how the, not to spoil it for everyone, but how the end result was kind of this, you know, this.

harmony, I can't think of a better word, between the different parts of Riley. Inconto, I'm curious if you have thoughts on Inconto. It's such an interesting movie. I have a three-year-old, almost four-year-old, and so we watch a lot of these movies. But yeah, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that one.

Yes, I do. I have seen it not recently recently. So I may not remember every name or every little aspect. I think that was brilliant. I actually saw it. My daughter, who's an adult like my kids are all adults. But it was earlier on, like a number of years ago, my my daughter wanted to watch it and we watched it. And I half paid attention. I'll be perfectly honest. And I initially like maybe it's culture. Like I didn't totally I'm not terribly familiar with that culture. I wasn't clear on.

At first, like, what is it trying to say? Maybe I was just tired. So I got some of it. But then a few years later, like I had somebody say, no, Jerry, you have to like pay attention. Need to like notice this movie better. So I said, okay, fine. And I was doing these film reviews. so, and everybody said I have to look at it. So I watched in Kanto again this time, like with my notepad. Well, and then of course the film was brilliant.

Hehehehe

Dr. Gerry (47:25.806)

Absolutely brilliant. What I would end up saying is a little bit there, which is interesting as I was reflecting on, how does it all work is that the main character. first I didn't get it right away, but I actually think she represents the Inmo self and that's why she doesn't have a gift. because the Inmo self isn't like the gifts or roles or functions that all these different relatives have and she doesn't have one.

Mirabelle.

Dr. Gerry (47:56.062)

She's the heart of that family. And at the end, when she comes in to open the door, she's the one that has to unlock the door, the house in a way. Like you could argue the house is, but the house is sort of, but it's more impersonal in a way than I think our inner self actually is. So anyway, I don't know if that's true or just, don't know if I could argue it in court a lot, but that's my impression. But the house is also interesting as the cell system.

in some way too, or housing the self system. So I love that aspect. Yeah. And how the different characters like, yeah, yeah. The character, I guess would be her uncle, I think anyway, the character that was kicked away that has a castle. Yeah. Bruno. So he, he was a perfect example of an exile and who goes, he's nobody wants to go near him. And well, she goes in and risks it all to her death, but to find him, this is what the inmost self does.

And this is to find that exile and bring that exile home. It's what Christ does as a good shepherd. He finds that sheep and he brings that sheep home. It was so, to me, that was so beautiful. That showed again, this, you know, I don't know, it fit very well with parts work.

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Yeah, no, it's beautiful. That's why I wanted to talk to you about some of these movies I am one question about in content that we can move on that the ant that has like the like words her emotions on her sleeve has like all the weather she controls like the weather or whatever What's your insight there? What's going on there? She basically like that the way they exhibit her in the movie is that she really has not much control over like how she

Joey (49:57.9)

reacts to her emotions. Like if she gets angry or upset, then there's like a tornado. If she is sad, then there's a rainstorm. She kind of wears her emotions on her sleeve. She has very little, what we might call emotional mastery. And so I'm curious, I've heard some people speculate kind of why that might be, but obviously it's all just speculation. So it's okay if it's a little bit too distant, but I'm curious.

I mean, it just sounds to me like this is a part that is overwhelmed by emotion. So when we were talking about that a little earlier, right? Like when a part is overwhelmed by emotion then and there in the driver's seat, then you've got a person who is always emotionally volatile and unpredictable, right? And so in a way that might be more what she was doing. And I don't remember what plays out for her toward the end if they develop that. I don't.

Yeah, no, no, think basically the way she manages her emotions is like, think her husband is like the one who kind of helps calm her. And yeah, I don't think there's, there's not a ton of resolution to that particular character in the movie. Of course, like the resolution for the family, of course, is that they kind of, instead of trying to be this like perfect family, they kind of acknowledge and accept like they're okay. We're, there's parts of us that are like broken and we're not like this perfect family that we want maybe people to perceive us.

I was wondering maybe that character, I don't know, in some way learns to use that power more helpfully than just be reactive. Because that actually sounds a little bit like a firefighter. But her role is she's not meant to be in the system, to always be that. But maybe that power is channeled in a more positive way, would be what I would be looking for.

Thank you, I appreciate all that. Any other movies that you would bring up that kind of exhibit, Partsworks, and then we'll talk a little bit about some other.

Dr. Gerry (51:48.472)

Yeah, I would argue that almost any movie does. It can't help it. I'm, I'll say this, writing my reviews, I haven't yet done Lord of the Rings and I haven't yet done any of the Marvel, like, Avengers movies. You know, because I'm doing a lot of, I'm writing these little reviews and they're, and I'm often picking movies that have been around for a while and that's fine. I want to get to doing more recent stuff once I get going. But, and I look at them from a Christian perspective and from a parts perspective. So almost any movie.

If it's any good at all, has some aspect because it's just so fundamental to who we are as a person. So I will just say this, like if you take a movie like the Lord of the Rings, or it's a book, right? Of course, it's one of my favorites. But, and you look at like the first book was the Fellowship of the Ring, right? And so there's, you've got all these different characters that are brought together. They're all different. So you've got, you know, you've got Aragorn and Boromir as the humans, and then you've got the hobbits and you've got Legolas, the elf, and you've got...

Gimli the dwarf, and you've got Gandalf the wizard, and you have all these different parts, right, if you will, coming together towards some kind of goal. Now they get all separated at the end of it, at the of the first part, but they're kind of representing all these different dimensions of humanity. I'd argue a lot of times they're, many of them are at different points, a kind of Christ figure, but in a way though, like that could be a part that is taking on a Christ-like role, which is...

perfectly fine. You know what mean? So there's a there's a multiplicity that's inherent. And I think when we watch a film like The Lord of the Rings and we see these different characters and how they are different and yet how they do interact, one unconscious way in which we are moved and brought into is that our parts relate to that. At a deep level, we relate to that. So whatever movie you want to pick, like pick Star Wars.

Let's just say the original first Star Wars New Hope movie. Now you've got your Luke Skywalker, you've got your Han Solo, you've got your droids, you've got the Princess Leia. They all have different roles and they all worked in the movies. Usually they reach a pitch as this team or whatnot works together more harmoniously or whatever, bonds and to fulfill whatever.

Dr. Gerry (54:03.362)

You know, and so it's the same if you were to look at, like, say, the Avengers and the Marvel movies, like you were to say, OK, why does this even work for us on a deeper level? Why do we get excited about these teams is because, they're they're all different, whether it's Iron Man with his issues and, you know, how many of us have an Iron Man within us, like a guy who is like invulnerable to everything, right? And whatever. But yet he struggles to handle things sometimes. But how many of us also have a Captain America? Like, we've got a Captain. We've got to do good or.

part of us, right? And we've got a Hulk within us who rages. We've got, you know, so you could go through it, like all these different characters kind of represent parts of us. And that's why these movies at a very innate level, like speak to us.

So good, gosh, I'm excited to read more of those. I read a little bit of one of them, but I'm really excited. We'll make sure to link to that column on your website so people can follow and read through that. Just quickly here, is it fair to say that maybe people's favorite movies are movies that they just like, the parts of them just resonate the most with the main character?

I think so. I think you have to identify. I think that, you you think about, you know, some really popular movies like Spider-Man, regardless of which Spider-Man you like, the Tom Holland or the Andrew Garfield or the, know, the reason you resonate on some level often is because there is a part of us, right, that feels like no one like that. We don't matter that we're somewhat orphaned, that life is hard. You know, Peter Parker and Spider-Man like

You know, I guess he is orphan. lives with his aunt. He has girl problems. He has, you know, job problems. He problems at school. He's being bullied. Like all these different things are happening to him. And I think that we relate, there's a part of us that really relates to that kind of character. And yet he's a superhero. He discovers powers that he didn't, you know, that he gets. He discovers abilities. And yet he, in his case, he also like...

Dr. Gerry (56:01.038)

has to figure out how he wants to exercise that for good, ultimately. But isn't that how we all feel? Don't most of us feel like an awkward, nerdy whatever at times? And growing up in the world's against us, and yet at our brightest moments, we discover truly who we are, and that's greater than we thought. And I think so many of the characters that we relate to, we have those inner connections with.

My favorite movie is actually Batman Begins and I kind of noticed I didn't even realize it until later after you seeing it as like a kid and realizing like my goodness there's like similarities obviously I'm not a billionaire but there's similarities with you know kind of Bruce losing his parents how I felt I kind of lost my parents and things like you said so so good there's so much more we could talk about we're close to the end of our time I do want to ask a couple more questions if that's okay I want to briefly touch on Mother Wounds and

Kind of similarly with movies, I've noticed in all the movies my daughter and I are watching like Cinderella or, know, Rapunzel's movie Tangled, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White. Like there's always like this kind of villainous female. And I'm curious, just talking with you about mother wounds. I remember we had a conversation like a year ago about this really briefly and it stuck with me and I was like, I need to talk to them more about that. So I'm curious, like for everyone listening, like what are mother wounds and how do they affect people? And if you want to use any examples from movies, feel free.

Well, you know, so a mother wound, in a sense like a father wound is where something happens usually right in childhood where our natural needs, our needs for maternal care and maternal nurturing get disrupted in some way. Right. And there are all kinds of possibilities there. Sometimes it's obviously the parents, your mother in this case, like their own woundedness or their own blocks or

but not their own trauma or whatnot, kids resurfaces in some way and they act out something negative, Or it's, sometimes it can even be something out of that person's control, right? Like, you your mother, you know, has a miscarriage or something and goes into a depression or dies even, right? And it's not in her, the mother wouldn't have wanted that, right? But so a child experienced that as a wound, right? As a loss. But then a lot of times the mother wound is where the mother...

Dr. Gerry (58:16.742)

actively in some ways, unaffirms, unnurtures, like fails in some way, right? In that more active way out of whatever brokenness. so, you know, recognizing a little bit, I'm going to make this so simple. It's way more complex, but I'm going to make this so simple. What we need from our fathers is affirmation. We need a lot more, but I'm going to, you know, nutshell it a little bit is affirmation. What we need from our mothers is nurturing. And so

Not the fathers don't nurture and not that mothers don't firm. There's something essential in that. And there's sort of a core thing. There's nothing like being nurtured by your mom. A hundred percent. Dads can't quite do it the same or some other caregiver isn't quite the same. And so, I mean, we can have a substitute mom, like an adopted mom or something and it can be just perfect, but there's nothing like that. And so when a mother is angry or cold or whatnot, it's really difficult.

The movie that stands out for me that maybe it's so old and nobody has seen it, but it's ordinary people. It came out. Yeah, it's powerful. Don't watch it. if, you know, it's like, it's literally like Schindler's List. Like don't watch it if, you know, you're in a bad, like, like a literary kind of thing. But it's a movie, one best picture, actually, I think in like 1980 or 81. And it stars Donald Sutherland, who recently passed away and Mary Tyler Moore. And they're the parents.

It was a shocking because Mary Tyler Moore had a show in the 1970s where she was, you everybody was in love with her. I was a kid. I was in love with her. Like she's so nice, such a lovable character. And before that, she was the wife on the Dick Van Dyke show and everybody was in love with her there. But in ordinary people, she's as cold as ice and she plays it perfectly. And in this case, you've got a, the dad is like some lawyer, some job that's makes a lot of money and the wife's a stay at home mom and they're in some kind of like fancy.

I don't know, upscale Connecticut or somewhere type, you know, like upper middle class kind of thing. And they have two sons, an older son and a younger son. the two sons go out on a boating trip and they're older teenagers. And one of them drowns, the older one. And then the younger one survives. And the older one was the football star. The one who died was this sort of like ideal kind of like perfect son, so to speak. And the younger one was the more awkward, quiet, shy one.

Dr. Gerry (01:00:38.582)

And the mother just, her own grief was such that she completely hated, like wouldn't outwardly say it, but she was completely hateful to the younger son. Wow. Because she couldn't handle her own grief and losing the one son and on some level blamed him also in some way, not that he caused the accident, but she just held onto it. She couldn't resolve her own issues to love her son.

the way he needed, he desperately needed his, and then the father was loving, the father was super kind and unbelievably great. But because of this mother wound, you know, this kid like was really in part because of not, he was, the kid was suffering because he was grieving the loss of his brother and the accident. So, but this movie, I won't say more, but I mean, it, shows depression, like the boy's depression shows grief.

There's even a counselor involved and the process there. It's a, it's a powerful, powerful movie. And to me, took me by surprise to see Mary Tyler Moore play this unfeeling mother. Um, and the crazy thing is she, the actress Mary Tyler Moore had lost her son to suicide, I think a year before. So anyway, analyze that. I'll be curious. But so that's, that's the movie. But, just to say something, I don't know if you want me to do.

want to comment on.

I'm just taking it all and that's just fascinating and it's so helpful to see like especially in like a story because I think a lot of people can relate to that more than the kind of theory of it so thank you for doing that. Yeah I'm just more curious now about just yeah it's one of the last questions like how that typically affects people and if you have any tips for kind of maybe beginning that process like obviously therapy with someone like you would be a great next step but I'm curious how it affects people and what they can do about it.

Dr. Gerry (01:02:23.918)

I think that what happens is we unconsciously go to seek out what we don't have. And so again, I look at it as part, but we have a part and often like when we're young, we had say a mother wound, some kind. And when we're young, we're not well equipped to cope. Like as an adult now, we could handle certain things better, right? But when we're younger, we don't know, we don't have many ways. So we look for ways to cope. So for example, like,

One way, if a boy experiences a pretty terrible mother wound, then there are just all kinds of different ways that somebody could respond to that. But one way would be to be always looking for that mother nurturing in other women. So sometimes they become like over-focused on, you know, like womanizing to win over women in some psychological way, like they're having to compensate.

But also it can turn into like a type of hatred of women because they're holding so much anger toward their mother that then it turns into a hatred toward all women. And it's not always on the surface, right? It's not always the obvious person, but it can show up, right? All this anger there. And again, it's like a part of that person is like angry at women now. So it can show up in men who are abusive toward women, who treat women, who...

you know, because they have all this underlying anger, might not even be connecting the dots, right? For women, it could also be like not having that female connection means they might disconnect from their own feminine nature because their mother was not safe or was threatening or whatever, abandoned or something. And so they therefore internalize that as a rejection of themselves and their own.

So this could mean different things, right? For a woman to either want to be a man or to seek out relationships with women, you know, instead of the opposite sex, not saying that's the reason this happens for everybody, but it's a possible dynamic. And so, you know, again, you know, a hatred of, again, of self in that case, for what, like a man might hate women on some unconscious level and a woman might hate herself therefore on someone.

Dr. Gerry (01:04:39.916)

level because she's been rejected or hurt by her mother.

So good. There's so much there and we'll have to cut it and maybe do a part two on all of this. But thank you for going into that. And I think if nothing else, it brings an awareness. And so if someone is interested in learning more from you, because you're brilliant, thank you so much for doing this. What do you offer? I know you have the book and there's other offerings like you do therapy as well. So please tell us about all that and how people could get it.

So yeah, the book would be great. Read that. We'll explain parts in much more detail and all from a Christian perspective. Soulsandhearts.com, or Souls and Hearts is an apostolate. It's a project that Dr. Peter Malinowski and I do. there there's online communities. This whole ministry is about helping people learn about their inner parts and grow and heal. And it's not therapy.

But it's, but it's often done in community and it's, there's a lot of education. There's a lot of things to learn there. There's so much. So we have online communities, but on there, on that site are my columns. I have a, the parting thoughts column is my movie film and media review. Kingdom within is it's another column that I do that is all about like incorporating deep Christian philosophy and theology and connecting it to a part psychology. so again, looking at the history, like what different.

saints or different early church writers and so on have said and showing how that supports in a way this whole version, this understanding of the human person. So there's that and there's other resources and so there's souls and hearts. then transfigurationcounseling.co is my practice site. I am not so much seeing clients, new clients, but I have a whole team of therapists who most...

Dr. Gerry (01:06:25.046)

All of them are using parts work, but they all have different talents and skills and they're all faith oriented therapists. So, and we're in different states, multiple states, not all the states, but we're in quite a few. So.

Thank you for all that and know what you're doing is revolutionary. And if someone's interested, especially on the therapy side, cause we've gotten a lot of interest people asking like, where do I go for therapy? Do most of your therapists offer like a free consult if they wanted to do that?

They don't usually offer a free like whole consultation. mean, they might do a 15 minute phone call to talk about, see if it's a good fit. kind thing. And if you call our main number, we have a therapist who takes in all those calls. He does a 15 minute, you know, and his job is to figure out who the best person is for that person and to also just understand. And he's a therapist. So he, he's under confidentiality and he, you know, he's wonderful. His name is Kevin.

No, that sounds like an amazing next step for anyone who's been wanting to do therapy, but wasn't sure where to go. I'd recommend it as well. So thank you for coming on the show. It's been great to have you. I just want to give you the final word. What final encouragement or advice would you leave everyone with? Especially, you know, the young people are saying right now come from broken family.

Well, whatever hurt and pain that you've experienced, would just say to bring that and notice that that can be united with Christ's suffering. So you're not alone in your pain and suffering. Yeah, there are lots of other people that also have experienced pain and suffering, course, but in Christ, he unites with you in your suffering and he can transform. And so there can become meaning. Whatever pain and suffering you've

Dr. Gerry (01:08:05.358)

experienced is not, is it was not necessarily meant to be or anything, but it can be transformed into something meaningful. And so to allow that process to happen takes a lot of courage, but I would just encourage people to do that and to recognize that your prayer life can be a lot deeper than, you know, saying prayers like out loud or just a prayer life can be about looking inside. And as we do that, recognizing how beautiful you are.

the level of your soul and how as you look inward, as you connect in with God, it raises you up. So there's an interior exploration that leads to an ascent. So I will just leave you with that.

Joey (01:08:53.069)

I learned so much in the interview yet. There's so much more I wish we could have talked about, we could have covered. And so I have a request. If you want Dr. Jerry to come back, submit a question for him. I'll tell you how to do that in a second. But if we get enough questions, we'll get him back on the show to talk more about mother wounds and to answer your question. So you can submit a question by clicking the link in the show notes or go into restored ministry.com slash ask again, restored ministry.com slash ask, or just click the link in the show notes.

That wraps up this episode of this podcast. helped you, feel free to subscribe or follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people too. And if you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We appreciate that feedback and that also helps people find the podcast as well. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of CSU who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start right where you are and change the ending.

#132: Why Your Wounds & Subconscious Are Ruling Your Life | Dr. Gregory Bottaro

Carl Jung once said, “Unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate.” 

In this episode, Dr. Greg Bottaro explains why our untreated wounds and our subconscious rule our lives, often without us knowing it. We also discuss:

• How his parents’ divorce impacted him and how he found tremendous healing

• Dr. Bottaro answers your questions, such as:

• How do you heal?

• How do I overcome my extreme fear of marriage and intimacy?

• How can you reconcile and build a strong relationship with parents who’ve been blind for years to the harm their divorce caused for me and my siblings?

• And many more questions related to healing, relationships, your parents, helping others, and even your relationship with God.

• What exactly are abuse and narcissism?

• A NEW resource that’s an alternative to therapy

Register for the CatholicPsych Open House

Schedule a FREE mentorship consultation. (Get 10% off your first month of mentorship with the code: RESTORED24)

Listen to Dr. Bottaro’s podcast, Being Human

Listen to 9 Ways to Pay for Counseling

Submit your question for the show

View Restored’s Resources

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

132_Final

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Joey: [00:00:00] How do you heal, especially from the trauma of your parents divorce?

Dr. Bottaro: We're healed in relationship. So we need relationships. No, no process of healing can happen outside of relationship. And ultimately, it's the relationship with God, which is the foundation for all healing.

Joey: How do I overcome my extreme fear of marriage and intimacy?

Dr. Bottaro: I was so afraid of it that I thought I had a vocation to religious life, and I became a Franciscan friar for three and a half years. Well, what, I mean, nothing in our culture is teaching people that. It's good to stick with things that you want to quit. It's like literally every other part of culture is telling you, like, if you don't want to do something, don't do it.

Joey: How do you differentiate between like abuse and maybe just misbehavior?

Dr. Bottaro: Not having boundaries becomes the opposite of love.

Joey: Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panrello. If you come from a divorce or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that [00:01:00] cycle and build a better life. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Dr.

Greg Bataro. He's a Catholic psychologist, founder of the Catholic Psych Institute and creator of the Catholic Psych Model of Applied Personalism as a mentorship program that you're going to hear about in this show, he's passionate about integrating Catholic philosophy and theology. with relevant psychology currently lives in Connecticut with his wife, Barbara and their seven children.

Carl Jung once said that unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate. In this episode, Dr. Pitaro explains why are untreated wounds. And our subconscious rule our lives often without us even knowing it. We also discuss how his parents divorce really impacted him and how he found tremendous healing.

We discussed the three factors present in all healing. Dr. Pitaro answers your questions. Questions you guys have submitted, such as how do I heal? How do I overcome my extreme fear? of marriage and intimacy. How can, you know, I reconcile and build a strong relationship with my parents who've been blind for years [00:02:00] to the harm that their divorce caused me and my siblings and many more questions related to healing, relationships, your parents, helping others and even your relationship with God.

We also discuss what exactly are abuse and narcissism and he mentions a new resource that's an alternative to therapy. Now, in this conversation, we do talk about God and faith, and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Everyone knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast, and so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here.

But if you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you're to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode. With that, here's our conversation. Dr. Pitar, so good to have you on the show. Welcome. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

It's always a pleasure to speak with a fellow Italian as well. And I know this, um, this topic itself is really near and dear to your heart. If I remember right, you were 17 years old when your parents divorced. To whatever degree you're comfortable sharing what happened and how did that experience impact you?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah. I mean, I was, uh, raised in a, an Italian family. We were [00:03:00] Catholic, you know, in name and in some practice. But, you know, that Italian dimension of family was really like driven home so deeply. And, you know, it was like dinner at Nana's on Sunday was, was definitely like a priority, a place of prevalence of priority over like, I mean, we went to mass, but if the two were ever in conflict, like there's a clear winner, which would win.

So. You know, I was without really realizing it, I had built a foundation on family and there is obviously that's a good thing, but it's not eternal and it's not the same kind of thing as the faith and then it's also subject to the imperfections of this world. And when my parents got divorced. It really cracked the whole foundation on which my family and identity and sense of self was built.

And so, I mean, I'm sure on some level that's gonna be the case for everybody, uh, you know, in some way. But in a very particular way for me, it felt like a real ground shaking, [00:04:00] earth shattering, foundation cracking kind of moment. And, you know, they, they fought for, my parents were trying to work it out for like probably eight years, I think they say.

Um, all through high school, I know they were in therapy, they were trying to figure stuff out, but then, you know, my senior year of high school, I was getting ready to leave for college and that's when they basically said, you know, that's that's we're done with it. We're not trying anymore. Um, you know, so I went off to college and in a lot of ways, when people are trying to find out who they are.

You know, in that new, a new environment, new world, like I was doing that on a whole different level, um, because I was also figuring out how to make sense of the foundation on everything I had, what it meant for that to be cracked. And so I think for me, the real grace, and this was the year 2000 and it was, you know, the Jubilee year.

John Paul II had, had called it the Jubilee year and, and, uh, there was, I just think a significant grace for me to recognize the truth of what the church [00:05:00] teaches above and beyond what my experience of it had been. So, in other words, you know, I think a lot of people. have bad experiences of the church or church teaching or, you know, traumas and wounds and imperfections.

And certainly there's plenty of examples of representatives of the church misrepresenting the church. Uh, and then people have wrong ideas or bad ideas and bad tastes in their mouth about what, what faith is, what religion is for, for whatever reason. I just had this grace to realize it was, it was because my family was not following The principles of the faith that I was suffering so much, and it was through reading this book by John Paul to love and responsibility.

And I read the beautiful articulation of what Catholic marriage is supposed to be. And it made sense of all the pain that I was feeling. Because it's not what my parents were living. It's not what they were promoting. It's not what we were being raised with. And it wasn't what we were being taught. So there was that clear juxtaposition [00:06:00] of this really beautiful ideal and beautiful vision of what to live for and why marriage can make sense.

That it sort of corrected my direction and it actually healed the pain that I was suffering. Wow.

Joey: Incredible. I, um, I can relate so much to your story. And one question I had, did the divorce come as a surprise to you? Like when they broke the news to you, were you pretty shocked or did you see it coming?

Dr. Bottaro: I mean, it's kind of both, like on one hand, cause I, cause I said that they were fighting so much.

They had spent some time, like we had a, a summer place that was at the shore. And, you know, my mom would spend a lot more time there in the summer. And then, you know, my dad would come down on weekends and stuff, but it was like, there's, they're taking some time being apart. Um, and so then when they finally sat us down to tell us what was happening, part of it was not surprising part of it though.

It's like, I don't know, that conversation is a splash of water in the face. That's like, I don't know that, I actually anticipated that happening.

Joey: Okay, no, it makes sense. And, uh, I [00:07:00] know different people react differently to that, but there's some research I've seen that says, um, situations where it's a surprise, like a low conflict marriage, divorce, are actually the most traumatic.

So that's kind of why I was wondering. But you mentioned love and responsibility, the book Love and Responsibility. Um, I've heard you say that that was, yeah, a healing medicine after your parents divorce, like you just said. Aside from just the vision of marriage, the beautiful ideal that you mentioned, were there any other like main takeaways or main points that were the most helpful in healing for you?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, I think in general, it gave me the sense that like a Catholic philosophical approach could make sense of a lot of things that humans experience. It was, it was this real eyeopening recalibration of like, okay, there is actually a book. You know, and people are like, Oh, nobody wrote a book about it or whatever, like parenting or whatever.

It's like, Oh no, there's actually a book, like you can read stuff that makes sense and makes sense of what you're trying to figure out or struggling through. And just having that hope, having that clarity, it's like, when you [00:08:00] realize that everything you've been taught is a lie, but then in the same, Six months somebody hands you the book with all the answers.

It's this incredible salve that is just yeah It was that healing for me that I was like, okay, I'm gonna be okay Like I'll be able to figure this out still

Joey: so good What would you say aside from that book was was most healing for you and the years following the divorce?

Dr. Bottaro: Friendship. I had a really good friend who was part of my youth group.

And then was at, he was at St. John's seminary in Boston. I was at Boston college. Uh, so my friend Colin was, um, we hung out all the time, you know, we'd talk. It's very philosophical. We'd have very deep philosophical conversation. He ended up leaving the seminary. I transferred to Steubenville and then he, he also transferred to Steubenville.

Um, and then at Steubenville, I had a, you know, a lot of flourishing of friendship. That was really life giving. Um, also really good mentorship. I had Peter Kreeft at Boston College. And um, I took [00:09:00] three classes with him. As soon as I knew I was transferring, I just ditched my advisor. And I ditched the course pack.

And I was like, I'm just taking as much as Peter Kreeft has available with us a year while I'm here before I transfer to Steubenville. And I just got to know him. Um, he gave me a lot of really good mentorship and direction. As I was a budding reversion and then getting to Steubenville, obviously a lot of good, you know, good professors.

They're really solid mentorship there. Uh, so yeah, I would say friendship and mentorship and, and then, yeah, just God's grace leading me and, you know, had certain retreat experiences, prayer experiences, just all of it attributed to his grace that he was leading me through all of that at that time.

Joey: Beautiful. I love it. That's so interesting. Like we see this theme throughout, like when we're exposed to good content, you know, like love and responsibility. Dr. Kreef's courses, um, when we're surrounded with good people coaching us in our life, mentors, you know, spiritual doctor, therapists, perhaps. Um, and we have community, like friendships, people who, you know, we're loving on and they're loving us.

Um, that's really such a [00:10:00] good recipe for flourishing. Would you anything else?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, I don't know. I was just going to validate that. Like what we've built into everything we do at Catholic psych is like coaching content in community. That's the three C's are like, well, we try to build everything on. So it's, it's really a recipe for success.

Joey: I love it on that note, we're going to go to audience questions and I'm excited to, yeah, just get your wisdom with these. And some of them are not the easiest, but, uh, but we'll take a jab at them. So the first one comes from Isabel. She's 22 years old and she says, how do you heal, especially from the trauma of your parents divorce?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, that's a, that's a big question. But, um, you know, I think self awareness is really important. And so, you know, people have different ways of coming to deeper self awareness, but that's where mentorship, accompaniment from people who've been there, who know how to handle relationships well. It could be a therapist, it could be a spiritual director, it could be a mentor of sorts, but the model that we use is that we're made in relationship, we're made out of the image of [00:11:00] God, and out of God himself, so in community, so we're made out of relationship, we're formed in relationship, in the family, that's also where we're wounded, so we're healed, and we're healed in relationship.

So, we need relationships. No, no process of healing can happen outside of relationship and ultimately it's a relationship with God, which is the foundation for all healing, but it manifests in the real world through real relationships and so finding people to help you really see yourself better. Like, it's the kind of people that, it's the kind of relationships that are like mirrors, so that when you look into the relationship and the relationship reflects back to you, something deeper about yourself than you previously understood or realized.

So you grow in that self awareness, and then you bring the kinds of stuff that are buried in our unconscious. Into our conscious minds. And when you let the material from the unconscious pass through that threshold into consciousness, we then have capacity to act as [00:12:00] humans with freedom and self determination.

And so that's, that's the healing process. It means becoming more self aware so that we can become more self determined so that we can become a greater self gift.

Joey: I love that and I love your emphasis on kind of uncovering like what's in the subconscious. We had another psychologist on recently and we discussed like, not endorsing all of his work, but we discussed a quote from Carl Jung or something he said of how basically your subconscious like rules your life.

He, he said, I forget the exact quote, but it was something like, you, you will often just like call it fate. But your subconscious is controlling you, and it's so important to like put into words like what's happening below the surface, um, and that's part of the healing process, and that's what I hear you saying.

So, so good. Um, you also reminded me of Jay Stringer came on the podcast in episode 102, and he gave this model. He said what often happens in situations of trauma and brokenness, you have like these three steps. You have fragmentation in your life. You have this brokenness that enters, and then that usually leads to some sort of numbing.

So, you know, we feel so much pain, we need to numb it, and then finally that leads to isolation, where [00:13:00] we feel so ashamed, we just push people away. And so what I hear you saying is like, we need people, we need people in our lives in order to heal. And that could be like a heroic thing. I've learned to even just reach out to someone to ask for help, um, whether it's a mentor in your program, which we'll talk about at the end here, um, or someone else in your life.

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, and it could be the opposite too, because it takes different forms, but sometimes the pushing away can actually be a clinging to. You know, it could be, it could be a dependency also, you know, sometimes there's two reactions to, to trauma relationships and it's, you know, one is that sort of super independence and pushing away and anxious avoidance.

And then the other is this kind of dependent clinging neediness. And it's almost a sense of never being validated. So you're just always hungry for it and always looking for it. But, but, you know, either way, there's just two sides of the same coin because either way, ultimately there's a wound that's, there's a fragmentation.

There's a wound that's not, that hasn't been processed. And it's typically because it's still buried in the unconscious. Like you're not even aware of it. And that is the process. So [00:14:00] it's, by the way, it's also something John Paul too, really kind of already nailed it with a blueprint of the human person psychologically.

And a lot of people don't really appreciate this about JP too, but I think he's the greatest psychologist that ever lived. And he wrote about the unconscious and he talked about the need to. Bring to light the content that's caught in our unconscious into the light of conscious awareness. Wow. And that's the only way to be fully free and to have free human action.

So it's, I mean, it's not, it's not wrong to quote Jung, obviously it's, Jung is amazing. I love, I love Jung, but. I, I always like to just point out how we as Catholics could do a lot more to promote the full work of John Paul too and, and how much he actually contributed to our understanding.

Joey: Uh, I agree a hundred percent and no, I, I'm with you.

And the quote I couldn't think of was he said, uh, unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you'll call it fate. Um, but I agree there's definitely some better sources out there than, than young.

Dr. Bottaro: No, I love that. That's perfect. Perfectly [00:15:00] complimentary to, uh, John Paul II. He talked about it in person, in act, in terms of freedom.

And he said that it's a task of, it's one of the important tasks of morality and education to help people move material from their unconscious to their conscious mind. Wow,

Joey: I did not know that, and I'm sure we could do a whole show on that. Um, moving to the next question, I'll kind of rapid fire at you.

Uh, this is from a woman who's 33 years old. She said, How should I respond to my mother and family members who disagree with my boundaries toward my abusive and unempathetic father who refuses to change? They tolerate him for money, for financial gain, and expect me to do the same.

Dr. Bottaro: Well, again, another loaded question in that there's a lot of nuance.

And, and part of the, I guess, just the disclaimer, the, the, the psychologist disclaimers, you know, you can never speak to a generalized topic like that, or an individual topic in a generalized way and do it justice. So this is not direct psychological advice or direction here, but speaking about boundaries in general, you know, it's, there's, there's multiple layers of [00:16:00] boundaries.

And so the question is asking about, you know, how to support a boundary with that abusive father. But then there's also the boundary of the opinion of the mother or the other family members. So it's, it's really a matter of boundaries all around, you know, and it's, it's looking at each relationship and then figuring out what are the appropriate responsibilities that I own?

And then what are the responsibilities that I don't own? So making mom happy is not a responsibility of the child any more than succumbing to dad's. You know, violent behavior or negative behavior. And so it's like we can't do just one and not the other. We have to sort of look at all the boundaries in the whole system and recognize the path is going to be forward through that.

Joey: That makes so much sense. And I think so many of the audience members that we Walk with the young people we walk with, like they really struggle with this boundary idea. I think there's this idea that if you really love someone boundaries aren't necessary, they're not a part of the relationship or, you know, the enforcement of boundaries is a way that you're [00:17:00] hurting someone and therefore again, not loving them.

That's not true though. Right?

Dr. Bottaro: No, of course not. In fact, people, you know, people don't really appreciate enough how like holding boundaries is the most loving thing you can do. And sadly, not having boundaries becomes the opposite of love. And this is a really hard concept and it's a really hard thing to walk with people about because it's, this is not with judgment, but when you've been the recipient of abuse or trauma or traumatic situations, you kind of build a whole defense system around it and you have, you know, patterns of, you know, Survival, which is like, all right, well, you know, if I'm getting a bunch of garbage from one person, like I'm going to look for validation from the other person.

Like that's how I get by, you know, or if I, if I keep this person happy, I don't have to deal with yet another person who's mad at me, but at the end of the day, we have to sort of come around to it. Like, okay, maybe there's a psychological reason why that's understandable and we should enter into [00:18:00] it as a psychological issue.

But don't try to make a spiritual justification for it, because if you really go down the spiritual path, you're going to realize you're actually being really selfish. You're defending yourself. You're thinking about how you feel when somebody else is mad at you, for instance, which I wouldn't take that approach.

You know, that's that's not exactly how you're going to help somebody change the pattern. But if they insist. On that sort of spiritualization of it, you can say like, all right, well, if you want to talk about it in that sense, let's really look at it then turns out this is actually the opposite of loving.

And when you set the boundary, you give the other person the best chance possible to maybe have to deal with whatever they've got going on.

Joey: So good. I remember the book that, um, Dr. I think James Dobson wrote. It was titled, I think, Love Must Be Tough. And I had a conversation recently with a young person who was in a situation where she had to kind of use tough love.

And so we talked a little bit about, I think, I learned it from Dr. Henry Cloud about just the difference between hurt and harm. Right. I think that's, that's been really [00:19:00] helpful for me of like, you know, we never want to harm anyone. We never want to degrade them as a person, cause them, you know, irreparable damage, something that's going to like put them down and just do violence to their dignity.

But we might need to hurt them in the sense that we inflict some level of pain because of something that we said that's true. Or, you know, the typical example of like, if you have a tooth that's falling out or has a cavity, you know, you got to get that worked on. If you need a surgery, it's going to hurt.

But it, And ultimately it's going to bring some good, some benefit. And so I think, I think that's so important to remember for all of us. And it's been personally helpful for me when I've needed to put boundaries in place.

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, definitely. That makes a lot of sense.

Microphone (2- ATR USB microphone) & UT-VID 00K0519341-5: If you come from a divorce or broken family, or maybe, you know, someone who does, we are for more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book for video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and built virtue.

So you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that, you know, just go to restored ministry.com/resources or click on the link in the show [00:20:00] notes.

Joey: Next question. A woman 32 years old says, how can you reconcile and build a strong relationship with parents who believe their divorce was harmless and a good thing when it's been the main source of trauma for me and my siblings for the past 20 years?

Dr. Bottaro: That's a good question. I think. You know, you want to think about what, what reconciliation really means, like, what are the expectations there? And I think it's important to acknowledge the desire of a child to be validated perfectly by a parent. We are made in the image of God. With a sense that we should be validated as such.

And it's like, we're born and we know, like we have this innate sense, maybe it's, it's unconscious, it's deeper than what we are aware of, but it's like, we know how good we are and we expect to be validated at that level. And then we're not, ever. And every single person, divorced parents or not, perfect parents or not, saint parents or not, we're gonna be [00:21:00] harmed in some way by the imperfection of our parents, unless you're Jesus.

That's why we need Jesus. And that's why Jesus formation in the Holy Family is so important, because he had Mary and Joseph forming him. He had a perfect humanity that was formed in the perfect home by the perfect family. No one else has that. And so, Our expectation, though, is for that, and so where are we going to get that?

If we're expecting reconciliation with parents to provide the perfection of what we're looking for, it's never going to happen. So we have to first go to the source of our perfect validation, which is through Jesus. Into the heart of the Holy Family, and really take on Joseph as a father and Mary as a mother.

In the way that Jesus humanity was formed in the Holy Family in that way. Our, our hearts can be reformed into Jesus, in union with Jesus in that same way. If that deepest need is satisfied, then we can go to our parents, and we can not have This like infinite insatiable [00:22:00] longing for perfection and we can accept whatever it is that they have to offer and then we can appropriately engage with boundaries according to whatever is the context, whatever is possible in that particular relationship at that particular time, because relationships change, people change all the time, but if we don't go with this infinite need.

Then we can, we can sort of accept the finite circumstances and we can, we can deal with whatever is actually being offered at the time. I think that's a pretty huge spectrum with, you know, more or less healthy dynamics possible. So that's, that's where I like to cover first before getting into like, what does reconciliation look like?

Joey: That's so important. And do you typically recommend, I know the context matters a lot with all these questions, of course, so we're taking a jab at them, but, um, do you typically recommend, like, someone who's in that attempt of building a better relationship with their parents, they're at a level where they at least can have conversations, do you recommend that they go to the parent and express how difficult, how painful it was For them, for the [00:23:00] young person to go through their parents divorce, or is it better not to even broach the topic?

Or does it just depend?

Dr. Bottaro: I mean, it kind of depends. I think that's usually something I recommend somebody has help with, like accompaniment of some sort, mentorship of some sort, but I would say, as a rule of thumb, If somebody's never brought it up, they probably could stand to. If somebody's brought it up a lot, they could probably stand to let it go.

You know, it's kind of like, how many times do you need to bring it up? And finding a balance there, it's like, one time maybe is necessary just for your own sake, like, to know that you tried to bring it up. But if it goes nowhere, if it's met with defensiveness, if it's met with blindness, if it's met with a lack of self awareness on the part of a parent, it's like, what more are you trying to get out of this by pushing this?

And that's where we come back to those unmet needs. And you can't really see the reality, which is that you're probably not going to get that need met here in this relationship. So then you have to decide to, you know, to sort of accept it for what it is.

Joey: It's great advice. It's hard advice for people who, you know, the parent, maybe [00:24:00] even they open up to the parent and the parent just doesn't respond well or even dismisses them.

Or like you said, just goes right over their head and they don't see the harm. But I think that's, that's such good advice. Next question. Angela says 29 years old. Um, how do I overcome my extreme fear of marriage and intimacy? This is obviously a trend we've seen a lot. The research we've seen says that this is the biggest area of struggle for those of us who come from divorce families.

So what would you say to her?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, this is where more of my story. Story is applicable where I, I was so afraid of it that I thought I had a vocation to religious life and I became a Franciscan friar for three and a half years. So I, I understand that fear for sure. And I was so blocked to recognizing that in myself that I didn't realize that's what I was doing.

It actually felt like I was called to religious life and I was really happy about it. I was really joyful and I was joyful for like two years. And it wasn't until like the third year that I started to really feel something missing in religious life. And then that grew into a kind of misery. [00:25:00] And then I felt really stuck.

But I was also, uh, working frequently with Father Benedict Rochelle, who is a priest, psychologist. Founder of the CFR Franciscans and praying a lot, you know, it was like five hours of prayer day, uh, intense mentorship with somebody who knew what he was doing. And I really started to break open where I was hiding from myself and I could see, okay, I'm afraid, I'm afraid to, you know, put children through the pain that I've suffered in the future.

Like if a marriage fails, I'm afraid to go through what my parents went through. And I found a great Holy spiritual way to avoid it. But then, you know, then it didn't work anymore. So I had to like, really come around to the healing. It was through the self awareness, like the healing, you can't just force the healing until you really dredge up from the unconscious, all the things that you're actually thinking and feeling, and then you bring up your actual interior experience into the light of truth.

And then, the readings, the [00:26:00] prayer, the retreats, the counsel, like now it starts to connect. Because you're applying the medicine to the wound as it's opened up. You know, if you put ointment on a band aid that's covering the wound, it's not really gonna touch the wound. So you gotta go through that process.

First, you need to open up the band aid and open up the wound, and then also have the ointment. And it's both together that will work to actually do the healing.

Joey: That makes a lot of

Dr. Bottaro: sense.

Joey: I've Gotten this question from other people as well, related to like, discerning their vocation in life, um, where they might feel called, and I know this is only a part of our audience, but I want to focus on this for a second.

They might feel called to religious life, but they're kind of double guessing that because they think maybe I'm just running for marriage because of what I saw growing up. Any tips on how to decipher between the two of those?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, I think you got to trust God more than yourself and trust the process of discernment.

I can say this, I, you know, I described my vocational discernment where I always tell people, what is the deepest [00:27:00] desire of your heart? Find, you have to spend time in prayer and silence and meditation and counsel and mentorship and, you know, putting yourself in that process to get to that interior. And at the same time recognize that you won't necessarily know if you're looking at the deepest part of your heart.

When I joined the Friars, I looked inside myself and I thought I had this image of looking into my heart, like looking down into my chest as if I was looking into a cave. At the bottom of this cave, I could see a treasure chest. And you know, the treasure chest opened and it was the vocation to the Franciscans.

I was like, if I look inside my heart, I see the deepest desire of my heart is to become a Franciscan. So a long story short, I Jo, I joined in three and a half years later. My image was that the floor of the cave. Cracked open and I, I actually saw light shining up from underneath the floor of the cave through the cracks.

And eventually all the cracks dissipated and the treasure chest fell through the floor to the real deepest. And the [00:28:00] inside of my heart, the deepest part of my heart was actually all light. And when the treasure chest hit the bottom bottom, like the actual bottom, it opened up again. And that was the vocation of marriage.

So. It's really important that I went to the friars. It's really important that I followed the desires of my heart. And I, and I'll never say that it was a mistake, or I had the wrong vocation, or it was misdirected, or that I, because I had to go. God's plan was for me to heal and learn what my vocation was by following where my heart was directing me in 2000.

And that, that's how I got there. So it's part of my story. And it was, it was by following the interior. So you, you just gotta, you gotta be where you are today. You have to follow your heart, what your heart is telling you today with the best that you can and trust that God is going to be with you tomorrow and he's going to help you see new things tomorrow.

And it might be a redirection. It might be something totally different, but within the confines of his will, as it's expressed through [00:29:00] various. context. In other words, now I have a vow of a marriage. Like, it's not like if all of a sudden tomorrow, you know, it's like, Oh, well, the deepest desire of my heart now is to, you know, leave my family and go become a hermit in the mountains.

It's like, no, that's not coming from God because the context matters, but in following faithfully, whatever the context and your relationship with God and your interior life is today, that will be the best next step.

Joey: And it wasn't like some mistake that you went to the friars and went through all that like you, you know, weren't listening to God.

It was through that that he worked and got you to the place where you need to be. So good. Next question from Katie, 22 years old. She says, how can I keep a potential future marriage free from brokenness?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, I, I think the truth is that that's not possible.

Joey: I

Dr. Bottaro: like

Joey: the question though.

Dr. Bottaro: It's an understandable and it's a beautiful and valid question.

It's a valiant question, but I, you know, [00:30:00] I tell young people I work with and I, I do work with young people and coaching them and dating and discernment. And, you know, it's like, yeah, the more you grow in self awareness on the front end, before you get married, the less you're going to be bringing into the marriage.

Yeah. in terms of baggage. So it's worth it. It's worth spending the time now. It's worth growing in intimacy with God and, and really focusing on your prayer life and your intimacy in your spiritual life. Because through intimacy in your spiritual life, God is going to reveal to you the brokenness of your heart that he wants to heal right now.

And even if you don't have your future spouse with you right now, you have God who is your ultimate future spouse with you right now. And you can stop avoiding intimacy with him and let him show you what he wants you to see.

Joey: What would you say to someone who maybe has been working on themselves a while, they have found a lot of healing, um, but maybe they for one reason or another feel the need to kind of continue working on themselves before they're ready, quote unquote, for [00:31:00] marriage?

Because obviously there's some sort of a line there, right? And I think some people maybe don't prepare enough. Like they, you know, just aren't in a good spot health wise, um, as a person, but on the other end, there might be people who are like pushing it off for one reason or another under the guise of like, I just need to kind of work on myself more.

What would you say?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, I think it's kind of implicit, like the answer is implicit in the way the person's reasoning through it. So in other words, if a person's mature, you know, I don't think that there's like a compartmentalized area of like emotional brokenness. And then it's just like reservoir off the side.

And that is, you know, maybe they're thinking they're like, I could get married, but I got to do this extra work. The traumas and the wounds make you think for of reasons why you're not actually, you don't actually want to commit. Like you don't want to take the leap. You don't want to make that sacrifice.

You don't trust, you don't have security, you're not grounded enough in, in your relationship with God. And that manifests in a lot of [00:32:00] objections to moving forward in a relationship, that as you grow and heal, those objections will decrease. So I don't know that it's like this independent variable of, Consideration, I think for the most part, I try to encourage people who are faithful, who understand the commitment of marriage to expect marriage to express and, and, and sort of manifest deeper wounds and different brokenness that they never knew they had to still work on and expect it and be ready for it and then be and say yes to it before they even get married.

And when I, when I married my wife, when I, before I proposed to her, her parents are divorced, my parents are divorced, and we were talking about the future. And I said, you know, if we ever do get married, I am going to want to divorce you. And she was like, wait, this is not a romantic date kind of conversation.

It's like, is this how you propose or something? Yeah, that was like, I'd get down on one knee, [00:33:00] but it was, I was saying, you know, we've both learned that language. And I know for sure that we are going to have difficulties as all people will in marriage. That's part of what we're signing up for. And the way that you and I will translate difficulty will be in the form of our brains coming up with this idea that, okay, now it's time to divorce.

So the commitment we need to make to each other right now. Is that even if that's what we're thinking, that will never be the option on the table and that we're going into this eyes wide open and we've talked about it. And now we know that that's not what's possible. If I ask you that question and you say yes, now there's a, an expectation of what that means.

So I, you know, you got to know that's, what's going to happen. And you have to say yes to sticking with it and committing to it regardless and then stuff comes up and the thought has crossed my mind and the idea has come up and it's like, I didn't sign up for this or I didn't realize this was going to be part of the story or all these things happen and you're like, what the heck?

[00:34:00] But we're going to keep saying yes, no matter what. And we do. And then deeper healing happens and more holiness happens and closeness to God happens. And that's why this is a vocation to holiness and why that's is the primordial sacrament.

Joey: No, it's so good that there's a vow because I've never really known a marriage.

Maybe there's a few out there who were, they didn't feel the temptation to quit. It's just, it comes with the territory. And I think it's so important. I love that you're saying this because it's so important for young people. To hear that, that like, Hey, at some point it's going to get really hard. You're going to be tempted to quit.

People are going to tell you, you should quit. You should be happier. Go find someone else.

Dr. Bottaro: Well, what I mean, nothing in our culture is teaching people that it's good to stick with things that you want to quit education, jobs, like where you live, family, like all this stuff. So if it's toxic, get out of it.

If you can quiet, quit your job, you can quit your job, like whatever. It's like literally every other part of culture is telling you, like, if you don't want to do something, don't do it. So we need to know, getting into marriage, that this is, this is an entirely different thing. But it's worth it. [00:35:00] More worth it than all those other things.

Joey: Yeah, in my experience, like, there's, we've certainly gone through seasons of struggle, but the good far outweighs the bad. And you, like you were saying, I remember Fulton Sheen talking about this, you go through that season of suffering, of struggle, and then if you stay with it, you will end up getting to like a new level.

A new place where there's peace and there's joy and, you know, and even if, again, there's suffering there and, um, even if, you know, I know there's certain people listening right now where maybe their spouse doesn't come around and they leave with another person or they abandon them. And even in that suffering, I think there's like meaning and peace that can be found that yeah, really is confusing to, I think the rest of the world.

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, that's, that's not at all being, uh, naive or, uh, numb to the suffering that happens in real life. It's just always the right answer to stay faithful, stay faithful to God above all, and whatever circumstance God has allowed to be a part of your story. He's planned it for a reason for you to grow closer to him.

Joey: It's great advice. It's hard to swallow, but great advice. And [00:36:00] yeah, and I know we've talked a lot about in the show about situations of abuse where maybe one spouse would need to get to safety and that's what we preach and I know the church teaches that too. But um, but always stay, stay faithful to the vows that you make.

That's a great message.

Dr. Bottaro: And that's the case where with mentorship, especially if you need it, but you might need to see that being faithful in that circumstance is separating. That's the, that's the loving thing. Going back to where we started with boundaries, setting boundaries is actually the most loving thing to do in that case, that is the manifestation of fidelity to the vow

Joey: question on that.

How do you differentiate between like abuse and maybe just misbehavior? Cause I think there's this tendency I've seen two kind of camps, two extremes. On one hand, maybe. People who call, um, nothing abuse. They kind of tolerate everything to like a really unhealthy extent. On the other end of the spectrum, you have people who call everything abuse.

Like any sort of misbehavior is classified as abuse. Where's that line? Like, what does it look like? Especially if someone's in a situation where they're maybe not sure if something is abused or not.

Dr. Bottaro: This is very nuanced, it's very individual. [00:37:00] And so it has to do with, you know, I think, I think of it as two different levers or spectrums.

And there's the spectrum of the behavior. And then there's the spectrum of the individual, I don't want to say tolerance, that's not the right word, but a kind of individual threshold. Of resilience and that is in no way shape or form meant to come across like a judgment on the quote unquote victim or the non perpetrator but studies show and research shows and reality shows that some people have different thresholds of resilience than others and a lot of that has to do with family of origin and background and and other life experiences other traumas so there are stories of the saints where you know a spouse was physically emotionally sexually abusive.

Transcribed But a spouse sort of just accepts it, you know, in a way of sort of, you know, offering up the suffering, praying for the spouse, you know, trying to be that example. And this is not in any kind of way of like a dependency or, uh, you know, an [00:38:00] enabling, but it's like kind of taking the higher road sort of thing and maybe creating space or boundaries or separation where necessary.

But the interior disposition of that person Is almost unflappable in the face of this other person's bad behavior. And so that's how we can see two different thresholds and spectrums that are happening here. And so we have to kind of evaluate both. If somebody doesn't have the resilience and somebody is crumbling.

And their life is falling apart and they're overrun with depression, anxiety. They're thinking about suicide. They're thinking about like on and on. That's nothing that's wrong with that person that somehow they're weak, but that's part of the discernment process of like, all right, this has gone too far for me.

And I like, that's where my threshold maybe is different than another person's threshold. And that's where, you know, it's like, think about it just in terms of like weather. I mean, people have different thresholds for. You know, stomaching cold weather, you know, and some people might be like, I just can't, I have like my constitution.

[00:39:00] I'm like, so sensitive to cold. Like I'm like this, actually, I can't stand the cold weather. So, so people want to go skiing or they want to go into these circumstances, these environmental circumstances that I consider abusive. And I'm like, I'm not going there. I'm going to set a boundary. And then other people are like, yeah, it's not that bad.

And like, I'm getting something out of it. That's better than what the cold is that I'm suffering. Okay. That's fine for you. So there is. A nuanced individual take on this, and I think, you know, in every circumstance, whatever your reaction is, whatever your response is, you can put it in context of an act of gift of self, an act of love, and this is the right way to look at it every time.

This is the holy way, the virtuous way, the Catholic way, whatever you're suffering, you can say, do I need to set a boundary out of love? Do I need to leave this person out of love? Do I need to call this out out of love? You know, do I need to forgive this person and reconcile [00:40:00] out of love? Like taking into consideration where I'm at, and then where the other person is at, and then discerning what is, The contextualized act of love for me here now.

Joey: And that just reinforces your point of having mentors walking with you, people who can speak into your life, who are like really wise and help you discern like these nuance situations. Cause super nuanced. Yeah. Context totally matters. And that's where it's so tricky when we hear a lot of people talk about divorce.

A lot of times it's just so broad and brand it's like too bland. Like you need to get into the. And it's not just black and white. You need to get into the color of the details. And so I love what you said. I think, you know, separating like this idea that, you know, if there's abuse happening, stop that from happening.

Do your best to stop that for happening. Put boundaries in place. If you need to even separate, get to safe. That's what the church says. Um, but, but at the same time, and so I love that you made that point at the same time, like you were saying, like that behavior of the spouse is a separate question. of like the validity of the marriage, right?

Like we always, like you said, stay true to the wedding vows. And so [00:41:00] I think like, so often in our culture, we see love and marriage, especially as conditional. It's like, I'll only be true to my spouse. If they're true to me, I'll only be, you know, faithful. If they're faithful, they're not faithful. I'm not going to be faithful.

And, um, man, what a disaster that's been the last, you know, 30, 40, 50 years.

Dr. Bottaro: A real, just weakening of our sense of, of what it means to be committed to love. Really. I mean, it's really like losing a sense of being a gift of self. It's all about what I'm going to take, what I'm going to get, not what I'm giving

Joey: a hundred percent.

And we won't get into the topic of annulments here and the question of the validity of the marriage. Cause I know that's a topic that's probably coming to some people's minds right now. We'll do that at a different time. Um, but one of the things I wanted to get your thoughts on what we've seen when it comes to kind of discerning the difference between abuse and kind of Bad behavior is like the type one.

So it was like, is it physical, sexual, or is it just verbal? Not that that's not serious, but those are very different. How severe is it? You know, the severity of it, the frequency as well would be another factor. Did this happen just like once [00:42:00] or is it happening, you know, continually and then finally the impact, like you said, on the person, is there anything you would add or change to those different variables?

Dr. Bottaro: No, I think those are all really important considerations. You know, I think just again, looking at like your individual threshold, your interior threshold. Is important. And that also is sort of different variables to it. So it's your own spiritual development, your own emotional development, your own support community.

You know, if you have, if you have good friendships, if you have good family relationships that sort of support you in this situation versus somebody who's kind of all alone, this is, there's are totally different contexts for being able to deal with some of these situations. So yeah, it's, it's pretty complex.

Joey: Yeah, no, I would agree with them.

Dr. Bottaro: I mean, at the end of the day, all of this speaks to the fact that we're not supposed to be doing this stuff alone. Like God never built us to be walking this walk alone and we need each other. And this is a great articulation of why, like, this is one example where it becomes really clear, like, Oh yeah, we're built for accompaniment and support from each other.

Yeah,

Joey: no. And it's, it's so sad to see some [00:43:00] people trying to navigate this all alone. Like what, what a recipe for disaster. So I couldn't agree with you more,

Microphone (2- ATR USB microphone) & UT-VID 00K0519341: We're now accepting questions on the show. That's right. You can submit your question for the restored podcast and we'll answer them on the show. My guests will answer them or I'll answer them. some of the benefits of asking a question, you can ask anything that you want, you know, maybe you feel stuck or unsure how to handle the pain or the challenges from your parents.

Break up. Maybe you're unsure how to begin or even continue healing. Maybe someone, you know, someone you love or you lead is going through their parents' divorce or separation, or maybe just a lot of dysfunction at home. And you need to know how to help them, whatever your question we'll give you specific and practical answers right here on the show.

How do you submit your questions? Really easy. Just go to restored ministry. Dot com slash ask. You can fill out the form on that page with your question. You can do it anonymously or not. And as we're able to answer your question on the show again, go to restored ministry.com/ask to submit your question or just click on the link in the show notes.

Joey: uh, two mentorship program, which is perfect timing with what we're talking about. Um, [00:44:00] Sandra, 57 years old says. If other family members who are children of divorce don't recognize the effects of divorce on their lives, should I try to inform them or let them be?

Dr. Bottaro: It's kind of a loaded question, but you know, in general, I would say like, when you say like family members, dot, dot, dot, it's probably not your job to inform them of anything that you're seeing, you know, for the most part. People, people feel so compelled to want their family to be better, to be healed, to be holier, to be, you know, better, whatever.

But literally, in Jesus Christ's own family, he had the least effect. We are built For whatever reason, by God's design, to have the least impact on the people we are closest to. And if we can accept that and move on, we'll be a lot better for it.

Joey: I would agree with that. There was a friend recently was telling my wife that they were deciding what to do with their kids for school.

And um, the wife came up with this like idea, I think it was like homeschooling. And the husband was [00:45:00] kind of resistant to it. And then he was listening to one of his business podcasts and the guys on the podcast mentioned how they were homeschooling their kids. And he was like, Oh, I'm sold. That's

Dr. Bottaro: exactly, it happens all the time,

Joey: all the time, all the time.

Um, no, I think that's, that's good. And I, um, yeah, it brings in this bigger question, which I don't know, we don't have time to go deep into this, but some people who kind of have this perspective that if things are going well in your life, there's no use to like, No, there's no use in digging up like past trauma and brokenness.

That's like one school of thought I've heard. And the other end, um, people think that, no, there is a lot of value in that because while you might be okay now, if there's stuff under the surface, it can grow, and then you might be facing that in a few years, do you side with one of those schools of thoughts or neither altogether?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, I could totally understand why people don't want to look at that stuff and why people would get jaded about the value of digging stuff up and all that. Yeah. But I mean, this is directly from John Paul too, that we become more human, the more we become aware of the things that are [00:46:00] buried in our unconscious.

And the more that we dredge out the material of our unconscious, that's actually motivating and influencing us. Like Carl Jung also said. Well, we're always going to be sort of enslaved to unconscious motivations. And so to become fully free, to become fully human, to become fully agents of our own self determination, we have a responsibility to bring out the things from our unconscious and to put them into the light of conscious awareness so that we can see clearly why we're doing what we're doing and constantly move more towards a full ownership over self and ownership of the decisions that we're making.

And if we just let the past be the past and never really look at it, it's ignoring a fundamental part of our anthropology of how God built us. Our past is influencing the way that we are acting in the present. So we, we owe it to God and to ourselves to, to look at it.

Joey: I think it's so important too to kind of define like what going well, What life going well means for people [00:47:00] because it's for different people.

It's like, yeah, no, things seem to be going well. Like I have a successful job and making money, but then maybe secretly they're struggling with like an addiction to alcohol or porn or something like that. And so I think it's really important, like you said, that we have this proper anthropology that we understand, like what the human person is meant to be.

So we have some proper to compare it to, because if we just compare it to people who like, You know, they're doing drugs and living on the street. It's like, well, yeah, your life comparatively probably seems to be going well, but that's where I think it's important to, you know, compare it to people who are better than us.

And then the other thing too, I think that often people might miss this. You can kind of think in the terms of physical health. If you think, well, yeah, my physical health is good, you know, I seem to be doing well. But maybe they're not doing anything to grow in health, you know, grow, visit, become more physically fit, for example, and they might be heading slowly down this path of kind of degrading or, um, you know, they're leaving a lot of potential on the table.

Dr. Bottaro: A hundred percent. And also people don't give enough credit to their ability to, to survive their defenses. And so [00:48:00] maybe somebody has bad knees. And they can't go up and down stairs. And so they, they buy a house that's a ranch that only has one level. And then they're like, yeah, things are going great. And more specifically, like in the psychological mental health world, like it doesn't even have to be as clear of a manifestation as like an addiction.

It could be something like somebody with some like narcissistic parts of them. Narcissism naturally attracts other people who are dependent. So you can have somebody that has built a defense pattern and a personality pattern around being narcissistic, but they've also insulated themself by surrounding themselves with people who are dependent and they're never going to get challenged in their narcissism.

And it seems like everything's going fine. I'm great. Everything's fine. What's the problem? What do I need to look at? But it's because you have people around you that will just do whatever you say without really questioning you. will swallow their own discomfort and never, you know, never really bring something up.

So it seems like everything's fine, but the reality is that we [00:49:00] create these worlds around us out of our own defensiveness as a survival instinct. Wow.

Joey: You brought up the topic of narcissism. I have to go there for a second. It seems like today, everyone's calling everyone a narcissist. Is everyone a narcissist or is there a definition, like a clinical definition of narcissism?

I know I personally, I think like we're all narcissists in one way or another. Um, but what's the difference between like a true narcissist and someone who's just prideful?

Dr. Bottaro: Well, there's, there's a number of different personality disorders and dependent is the other one that I mentioned. Uh, there's also something called histrionic.

It's where you're always the center of attention and you're sort of loud and obnoxious most of the time and, um, there's borderline personality disorder. What this means when we designate something as a personality disorder is that the symptoms have crossed a certain threshold and that there is a certain cementedness in these behavioral patterns.

The fact of the matter is we all have a little touch of all of the personality disorders. They just don't all cross the [00:50:00] threshold. And so, yes, you're right. We all have a little bit of narcissism in us. We all have a little dependency in us. We all have a little histrionics in us. We all have a little borderline in us, but how much are we going to actually stick with those patterns when push comes to shove, or when we start to see that there are really negative consequences, it's like, maybe you have a pride That you want things to go your way, but how much do you stick to your guns when you see that you're bulldozing your spouse or that your kids are like crying in a corner because, you know, it's like, all right, well, some people actually won't even register that there's a consequence.

Whereas other people will be like, Whoa, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'll back off now. Like there's a, there's a flexibility. in that pattern. So that's the difference between a full blown disorder. This is something that we teach in our certification program, and one of the sort of interesting exercises, because we teach the different personality disorders, but then we have homework assignments.

Where you have to write [00:51:00] about your own parts that are that personality disorder. So in other words, the week that you learn about narcissism, it's like your reflection paper is like now describe your own narcissism and it's like, there's a mind blowing thing for people to go through. They're like, and it's like, you see it coming, like it's on the syllabus, you know, like borderline is coming up, but then it's like, you, you don't put two and two together until you're like, wait a minute, I have borderline parts.

I have to write about it. I have to reveal it to somebody else. It's like mind blowing, but it actually is true, which is, which is why we can connect with other people when we learn how to do that, we can really accompany people because we all, we're all kind of in the same boat together and we can understand somebody's narcissism because you're relating it also to your own.

It's like nonjudgmental and it's like, Hey, we're in this together, but let me help you. And it comes through with more love than anything else.

Joey: Thanks for making that distinction. That's helpful. The final question before we get into the [00:52:00] mentorship program, a woman's 43 years old says, knowing and feeling are very different things.

Knowing God loves me and feeling his love can sometimes feel like a canyon. How do I bridge that gap?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, great question. And this is true because we have these intellectual faculties, the intellectual part of us, and it's not the same as the deepest subjectivity of our experience, which is, which is why John Paul II is so profound in it as a philosopher and psychologist for our time, because this is where he went, whereas sometimes the sort of Thomistic traditional approach is like, all right, do you understand the truth of this, like the intellectual faculty, but we have these experiences all the time, like.

We can probably teach a course on the mercy of God. Does it mean that we feel it and we're free because of it? Those are light years apart. So in order to enter into experientially the love of God, this is why, again, we have to dredge out the blocks that are hidden in our unconscious. Your intellectual faculty is in your [00:53:00] conscious mind.

Your memory is in your unconscious until you dredge it out into the intellectual part of your conscious mind. So the fact is what's happened to us informs our thoughts and feelings and our will, but that's buried in the unconscious. So we have to do the work of dredging out the handicaps, the hurdles, the wounds, the miseducation.

That's buried in the unconscious.

Joey: So good on that note. Let's talk about the mentorship program. What is it? How does it work and any stories of success like transformation that you can share?

Dr. Bottaro: Oh gosh, we have so many I mean, we've built a model to accompany people. So we primarily have two services now We offer through Catholic psych one is to provide services of accompaniment.

We call it mentorship Where we walk with individuals who are struggling from whatever. And essentially that's what we're doing. We're walking with them to dredge up from their unconscious. All the things that they're not aware is actually motivating their thoughts and feelings and actions, but we're also training other people how to do that.[00:54:00]

And so coming up, I think. I think shortly after this episode airs, we're going to have an open house where we're going to fully open up the doors and show the inside of our certification training program. People could sign up at, at, um, catholicpsych. com slash open house. And that's the registration, free registration to, to come to our open house to see what our program is all about.

And essentially we're teaching people how to integrate faith, reason, and science. To understand yourself and to be able to understand others so that you can accompany them and help them flourish. There's, you know, all sorts of people in all different walks of life. We've had priests, other therapists that want a deeper Catholic integration and foundation of what they're doing.

Teachers, parents. Young students who are coming out of school who want to go to grad school, but maybe for whatever reason, don't want to go get a license. We're not, we're not teaching people how to become licensed therapists. We're teaching people how to do a really Catholic authentic form of accompaniment and mentorship.

We've also had people who are like [00:55:00] retired or sort of in their midlife state where they're trying to figure out how to give back more. So there's a lot of different ways that we can help train people to help others. But we, I mean, we really work with people who. are, you know, suffering from divorce, uh, whether it's their own parents, whether it's their own divorce, whether it's their own marriage, maybe they don't want to get divorced and we mentor marriages so that they can figure out through healthy communication and a deeper sacramental understanding of Catholic marriage, how to find healing.

Instead of succumbing to where most couples end up with now. Um, so that's, you know, by, by applying these principles, we've been able to find a great, great effect, great outcomes that we're starting the studies now putting together the data, but it's really profound how effective this model is. We actually talk with people every day.

Which is very different from like a therapeutic model of, you know, a session once a week or every other week. And so we really go all in with people. We really, we accompany them [00:56:00] every day, we meet them where they're at, and we stick with it. If you're, if you really want to change something, if you really want to work on something, we're there to go all in with the people that we're walking with so that we give them that best chance possible.

Joey: I love that. I love that. And, uh, any top stories? I'm really excited to see the data when it comes out. And I'd love to have you back to talk about that. Cause I think that people would be really interested in how it could help them. Any like top stories come to mind about, man, this person was struggling with this.

They went through mentorship and now they're, they've grown in this way.

Dr. Bottaro: I mean, I've got a hundred. So, I mean, I think really quickly, I mean, addictions, uh, work with a number of, of young men and a couple of women, uh, in the last year who were struggling with. Pornography, addiction, um, internet, you know, just can't get away from social media.

They were feeling depressed, suicidal, and just mired in this world of fantasy and this world of self loathing, self gratification in that sense and freedom. Able to figure out how to get out of that and feel [00:57:00] validated and loved to the extent that they were satisfied where else. Otherwise, that's what they were looking for.

Um, number of people worked, worked through marriage difficulties. Like I was saying before, a lot of people I just find are just not, they don't even know to hope for something better. And unlocking hope so that people have something to strive for. All of a sudden they're able to strive for it, but they don't even realize how much unconscious despair they've already accepted.

And they're living with this sort of sense that like, that's not really going to ever work anyway, not consciously, but buried in the unconscious. Scrupulosity is a big one. We work with a lot of people through scrupulosity. And just getting out of the ruminations and the self doubt, self blame, the fear, deep fear of judgment and wrath of God, the personality disorders.

It's been amazing to see a lot of therapists are trained to avoid personality disorders. Wow. In grad school, it's kind of like the un, unwritten sort of thing. [00:58:00] Like, well, you know, if somebody comes in with borderline or narcissism or whatever, just refer them out. Fine. You know, it just takes a lot out of you to work through some of that stuff as a therapist, but our model is perfect for it.

And it, it just works really well. So we challenge people. We love people, but we, we, it's a kind of a no BS model. And if people really want to work on stuff, we, we put it out there and then, you know, if it's, if it works, it works. So it's not always, sometimes it doesn't, but we don't hold that responsibility of, it's not up to us.

You know, it's, we're providing what we can, but God is the real agent of change and his grace is ultimately what's doing the work. So when you sort of get out of the way, you see all sorts of things happen that, you know, I think most people don't expect to be as easy to, to actually heal.

Joey: Yeah, no, so good.

And you guys have been doing this for years now. And how many people have you helped as mentees?

Dr. Bottaro: You know, I don't know that I've done a full count. I started myself in 2019 before I told anybody what I was doing with this new model of daily accompaniment, and then. After about a year of, of success, I told the [00:59:00] rest of our team that we're doing it.

And then I trained them. And so at this point now we're up to like 250, almost 300 people a month that are going through mentorship with our team. And now we're training new people. So we have lower costs. Uh, mentorship available to work with one of our students and the students get our supervision. So it's kind of like a model of apprenticeship and then when students graduate, some of them become partners and then they're doing the mentorship as well.

So we have their clients. So it's, it's growing pretty quickly. We're serving the church. We have priests coming through the program. They're applying this model to spiritual direction, because it's really a kind of a mix of spiritual direction and therapy. And so they're using it for spiritual direction.

And yeah, it's growing.

Joey: So good. And is it still the model where people sign up for like a month at a time and you do a lot of voice memos? Or is that different?

Dr. Bottaro: No, that's, that's essentially the methodology. So we use an app, and then we go back and forth with voice messages every day. It's like you have this private walkie talkie channel set up with your your mentor.

And then you're, you're having this daily conversation, so you're not really, by [01:00:00] the time you're in it, after a few days, you're, you're sort of just in the dialogue. You're just always having this dialogue, and it's not separated out of your life. So things happen in 24 hours that you bring into the dialogue, but you don't feel like you're starting and stopping an appointment.

You kind of feel like this is the ongoing dialogue that we're having right now.

Joey: Now, I remember that going through therapy myself, like, you know, You get to a point where you're just spending so much time giving context and updating the therapist on like what's going on and it's like half your session's done and it's yeah, so I love this model.

I think it's so wise and a couple questions because I know people are thinking this, um, how much roughly does it cost and how long do people typically stay in the program?

Dr. Bottaro: Um, to receive mentorship itself, we have a sliding scale. So it depends on who you're working with and if, you know, the person has more experience or not, but it could be anywhere from, you know, like a couple of hundred bucks a month for that date, but this is a daily interaction.

So whereas like four sessions during a month might cost like 600, you [01:01:00] know, we do have like our more established mentors are available for the daily interaction for closer to probably a thousand dollars a month. Depending on the training of the person, you know, I get, you know, a partner mentor or somebody else who's less than that.

And then, you know, we, like I said, we have our students available for, you know, three, four, 500 a month as well.

Joey: Love it.

Dr. Bottaro: And then people will stay in the program. Everybody's very different. It's tough. But I, as a general rule of thumb, I tell people to play in on three months to kind of A good handle on pretty much anything that they can bring up.

A lot of times people will work through their initial things so quickly or so deeply that they're like, Oh, I have all these other things I want to work on. And then they just kind of keep benefiting from it. But yeah, it takes a good month to, to really dig into some things. And then. Uh, there's not much that people are suffering from that gets resolved in a month.

So I usually say like, at least give it three months.

Joey: That's so good. And for the whole pricing objection and pricing might change guys, just know that if this is years in the future when you're listening to it, but, um, just one thing I was going to mention is like looking at the lifetime costs of [01:02:00] therapy.

I think it's really important. Cause if you just look at like, oh, well, compared to this other model, I wouldn't be paying as much. It's like, well. If you go to therapy for a year and you're, you know, paying 600 a month, and you know, it's over 6, 000 that you're spending. And, you know, if you do that for years and years, and you're not making much progress, then you're going to be spending a lot of money and you're, you know, suffering continues, or, you know, you're not able to handle it as well.

And, you know, it's just, there's all sorts of frustration and other costs too, in your life. And so what I see is like, it, I think you need to look at it as an investment, whereas if you were to invest in that time, whether it's three months or six months and you get to like a better, healthier place where you no longer maybe need that intensive of a model, that intensive help that can prevent so much additional future, you know, mentorship or need.

And it's similar to our bodies, right? If we take care of our bodies, we get in like a healthier spot. We're not going to be needing to go to the hospital and the doctor all the time.

Dr. Bottaro: A hundred percent. And that's, you know, that's kind of like one of the unjust things about the current model with therapy because You compare [01:03:00] based on a weekly fee.

And yeah, to your point, it's like, Oh, you know, I could do therapy for 60 a week, or I could do therapy for 150 a week, or I could do therapy for 300 a week. And when I was doing therapy, I was charging 300 a week and it was out of pocket self pay. I didn't even work with insurance companies, but I know people were wrapping up their issues faster with me than if you went to some like insurance covered, you know, not to put them down, but.

From what I've worked with in terms of like Catholic charities or some of these other, like institutional organizations, they just don't have the training to be as effective and, you know, you go to somebody with a doctorate who worked for six, seven years before, you know, they, they could have their own license versus somebody with a master's who worked for two years, you know, two years of schooling, and then they hang their shingle.

There's a difference. And if you're not calculating those costs to your point, it's not a fair comparison. Yeah. And so, yeah, you're going to be working on that issue for three years. So calculate 60 a week out for three years. And [01:04:00] also the, the value of three years worth of having not moved forward on the issue, it's like, what is three years of battling through marital difficulties?

Compared to one year of battling through marital difficulties. What do you do with those two extra years where you had a resolution of your, of your marital difficulties? What's that worth as well? So there's a lot that goes into the value of things that people don't necessarily think about. And when it comes to marketing and everything else, it's like, yeah, sure.

It's easy to position something like, Oh, it's only 60 bucks versus whatever. But. There's a lot more to that story.

Joey: No, and that's why I wanted to stay on this topic for a while. And we'll throw in the show notes, guys. We have an episode to kind of give you some creative ways to pay for therapy, because I think that's often a barrier for a lot of people.

So we'll throw that in for you guys. Definitely recommend listening to that. We've gotten a lot of good feedback on that episode, in case you're in a spot where you think maybe you couldn't afford it, or you couldn't figure it out right away. But there's a lot of creative ways. But one of the things I was going to mention, Dr.

DePardot, is um, when I got to college, I played baseball a little bit in college and, uh, I was like shocked at like the quality of [01:05:00] coaching. I was like, you know, through high school, I played travel ball, I, you know, played with like really good guys who ended up, you know, I wasn't at this level, but they ended up going D one or pro.

But when I, you know, the coaches just weren't at that level, but we get to college and we're like being coached by pros that were being coached by these guys who have just so much experience coaching or playing, and it's just like night and day. And I can't imagine what like an actual like pro coach or an Olympian coach compared to like a high school coach.

That's the difference that we're talking about here. So just to tie that together for everyone, if someone wants to do mentorship, um, as you know, a mentee, uh, what's the first step? What can they do today after they're listening to this?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah, sure. You go to Catholic psych. com. Um, you can go, you know, I think it's mentorship.

There's a button right there that tells you that says basically like I'm looking for help. And then there's a, a consultation. We'll give you a free consultation. So you just pick a time on our calendar and just have a conversation. And so we'll help you figure out if it's a good fit, if we have a better idea, if you think that there's a safety issue or something else that's there or, um, you know, or who would think [01:06:00] you could sign up with and get started.

So you have a consultation. And then if you think it's a good fit, And then, you know, we have a whole team of people ready with different areas of expertise and specialties in training. And so it could get started right away. Okay. And I imagine you kind of tailor people, you pair them up. Is that right? Or do no, we pair people up.

So yeah, we kind of have a sense of what, you know, based on an application form, there's an intake form that they fill out and people can share sort of what's going on, what they think they need help with, what their history looks like. And then based on that, we have a whole intake team that. Kind of discerns where the right fit is with the right mentor.

Joey: One final question on, on this whole mentorship program. If someone is listening and they're like, I want to be a mentor, you mentioned a little bit of the process, but overall, what does that look like? And how do they get started on that?

Dr. Bottaro: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot, so definitely come to our open house, October 1st.

catholicpsych. com slash open house, but it's a one to two year program. We pay a quarterly as you work through these four levels. And the first quarter is really a lot of just kind of working on yourself. [01:07:00] You, you get the mentorship that we provide. So every student actually has. Our top tier mentors giving them accompaniment.

And so at every student, you start off, you start taking courses, you have a small group, you have the reading, but there's a lot you're processing in terms of what you're learning and how you're going to start thinking about how you would give this to other people. And you know, in the old days of therapy, everybody, every student had to have a therapist, you know, Freudian analysis, every, every analyst has to be in analysis first.

Well, that practice has kind of gone away, you know, in, in secular therapy, but we think that it's essential because we, you know, you can't give what you don't have. And so we want to make sure that people are shored up and, and have the sort of bandwidth to bear others burdens. Um, so you get it first and then you work through some stuff and you process and you figure out where you're at, but then you move into level two and that's when you'll get a client and we have a practicum and so, you know, we, we give you supervision.

And, you know, through, through that [01:08:00] experience, you're putting together a lot more of the pieces of what you're learning and it becomes a very practical experience.

Joey: Love it. Appreciate that. And definitely recommend you guys check that out as well. Both the mentor program. And then if you were interested in becoming a mentor, uh, go to that open house or just go to that link, uh, at a later date, I assume you guys will have a recording or something on there.

Dr. Bottaro: Yep. There'll be, there'll be another replay on there after. Love it. Love it.

Joey: What other resources do you offer? I know you've written books and things like that. And how can people find you online? And I assume catholicpsych. com is the best place, but what other resources

Dr. Bottaro: Yep. We have, we're on social media at Catholic Psych is our handle everywhere.

LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube. We have a bunch of stuff on YouTube. Um, I wrote a book called The Mindful Catholic, and that's about the integration of mindfulness with abandonment to divine providence, um, as a very psychological and scientific approach to mindfulness. Not some of the new age sort of Buddhist stuff, but the, the more medically proven model of it.

Um, but it's, it fits really nicely with abandonment to divine providence. So that's where I wrote that book about, um, on the website, we have a digital [01:09:00] resources section. So we have something called a virtual retreat, which is an introduction to the way that we do integration and, uh, and some, some other courses and things there.

There's, there's actually a course called Built to Last, which is about marriage, uh, some of the stuff we were talking about today, healing some wounds, learning how to communicate, understanding Catholic sacramentality and what that can do for, for wounds and marriages and trouble. So there's, there's a lot there.

Joey: So good. I appreciate all that. And again, I encourage everyone to check out the, all the links that Dr. Pitaro mentioned. And, um, we'll throw that on the show notes to make it easy for you guys, but Dr. Pitaro, thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, you're so wise. This is so enlightening. I learned a lot and, uh, definitely

Dr. Bottaro: praise God.

Joey: Thank you. Have you back at some point and thank you for helping this audience. Like I know it's near and dear to your heart as well. I want to give you the final word. Uh, what encouragement, what advice would you offer to the you who's perhaps listening right now?

Dr. Bottaro: So, you know, pray the prayer of St.

Augustine, you know, to, to ask God for the grace to know yourself better so that, [01:10:00] and to know him better, uh, to, to just continue down that road, that continual life goal of, of growing in self awareness, self knowledge and knowledge of God.

Joey: If you want more content from Dr. Pitaro, check out his podcast called Being Human.

Lots of solid content on there. We'll link to that in the show notes. And if you're curious about the Mentorship Program, go to catholicsych. com slash apply. They'll answer a lot of your questions. And when you're ready, you can schedule a free 30 minute phone consult. Just click schedule free consultation on that page and pick a time that works for you.

They make it really easy. And they offer pricing for various budgets, and you can actually get 10 percent off your first month with the code restored. 24 again, restored 24. It has to be all caps restored 24 again, go to catholic psych. com slash apply or click the link in the show notes. And that wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you feel free to subscribe or follow on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your podcast app.

Not only is that the best way to avoid missing future episodes, but the more subscribers we have, the more the apps will suggest our show [01:11:00] to people who are looking for help. And it only takes a few seconds. If you've already done that, feel free to rate or review the show. We definitely appreciate that feedback.

And that also helps us reach other people too. In closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life and we're here to help. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#130: An Exercise to Heal | Dr. Peter Malinoski

If you’re like me, you’ve experienced trauma or brokenness in your life which has led you to seek healing. One method of healing used in therapy is Internal Family Systems. But what exactly is it? And how can it help you?

My guest today, a psychologist and expert in Internal Family Systems, answers those questions, plus:

• A healing exercise that you can do alongside me during this episode

• The result of the exercise for me and both of our thoughts on it

• Why your subconscious is ruling your life

Listen to The Interior Integration for Catholics Podcast

Visit Dr. Peter’s Souls and Hearts

View Restored’s Resources

More Resources from Dr. Peter

Find out more about IFS (Internal Family Systems) with Dr. Peter here

Is IFS really Catholic? Find out from Dr. Peter here

How can IFS help overcome porn use? Dr. Peter’s workshop titled “Working with Part Who Want Porn is here

Check out episodes 49-71 of the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast for a whole series on sexuality and Catholic marriage

Catholics desiring greater interior integration and personal formation – especially human formation – can check out our Resilient Catholics Community within Souls and Hearts

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

130_Final

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[00:00:00] Why is divorce so impactful? So often traumatizing for young people. I like to think about this in terms of a poker analogy, but in terms of your parents and the environment that you were brought up and so forth, that's like the hand that you were dealt, right? You're not going to be judged on the hand you were dealt.

You're going to be judged of the way you played that hand. I think it's really underappreciated how much we need to really be human first so that we can flourish so that we can live lives of joy and peace. What is internal family systems and how might it help someone? What I love about internal family systems and parts of systems approaches is that it helps us to make sense of the chaos inside.

Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorce or broken family, this show is for you. We help you heal your brokenness, navigate the challenges and build healthy relationships so you can break that cycle and build a better life. My guest today is Dr. Peter Malinowski. He's been a clinical psychologist for the past 20 years.

In Indianapolis and the co founder and president [00:01:00] of Souls and Hearts, where he leads a community for therapists and for Catholics and creates content for their podcast. Dr. Peter is passionate about bridging the psychological and spiritual realms. Uh, he's an expert in helping people uncover the unconscious barriers that really hinder their ability, their capacity to love God and each other, as well as receive love from God and other people.

He's been married for 27 years to his wife, Pam, and they have seven. Children. I'm really excited for you guys to hear this interview. If you're like me, you've experienced trauma, you've experienced brokenness in your life, which has led you to seek healing in some form. And one method of healing that's used in therapy is internal family systems.

It's helped a lot of people and it's becoming even more popular. You've probably heard of it, but what exactly is it and how can it help? You in particular, Dr. Peter, who happens to be an expert in internal family systems, answers those questions in this episode. Plus he leads a healing exercise that you can actually do alongside me in this episode.

We discussed the results of that exercise for me. I got a bit vulnerable. I'm going to share a lot [00:02:00] with you guys in the hope of being really helpful and kind of a Guinea pig. We talk about why your subconscious is ruling your life and why knowledge really isn't enough for healing. And finally, he offers an amazing resource that you can use to help you heal.

and grow. But before we dive into the interview, a few quick things. One, there's some mature content in this episode, so you might want to listen with earphones and if there are kids around. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith, and if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this show for a while knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast.

And so wherever you're at, glad you're here. My challenge to you would be this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And lastly, if you're not in a place to do the exercise that Dr. Peter leads, um, maybe you're driving, working out, or doing chores, uh, one suggestion is this, you can actually listen through kind of as an observer, and then set a reminder on your to do list or on your calendar to go back and do the exercise yourself.

But with that, here's the interview. Dr. Peter, so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. [00:03:00] It is amazing to be here, Joey. I so enjoyed meeting you in person at the NEC, at the National Eucharistic Congress. And for us to be able to connect here is just a pleasure and an honor. Right back at you.

And, uh, yeah, it's always cool to meet people in person. I wish we could have done this interview in person as well, but I'm glad we're doing it here now. And I remember telling you, yeah, go ahead. And you did an interview with, with Dr. Jerry for us. So episode 146, like I'm super excited for that to be coming out or maybe it's already out by the time this goes up.

So. Yeah, yeah, we'll link to that, um, I think it'll be around the same time. We'll make sure to link to that episode where I went on your, your show basically with Dr. J. So, um, yeah, but I was just going to say, I read one article from you one night. I was just researching a topic, I forget even what it was, but, um, an article came up and I read the article.

I don't often read articles, especially not all the way through. And I was like, Oh, this is like really, really good. And I kept reading. I was like, this is really good. I'm like, who is this guy? And how have I not heard of him? So, so then I, so then I immediately like. You know, started looking into the [00:04:00] work you guys are doing, which is amazing, which we'll talk a little bit about later.

And then, um, you know, realizing we had mutual friends and connecting there. So anyway, I'm just thrilled to be here with you. And I wanted to start out just talking about why in the world are you doing this work? There's probably a lot of things you could be doing. What, why do you care about helping people to heal and to thrive in life?

Well, you know, early as a very young psychologist, I realized that so many spiritual problems. We're really spiritual consequences of human formation issues. In other words, you know, when my kids had trouble with algebra, sometimes it was because they didn't get the arithmetic right, you know, and so we're really, I'm really about shoring up the natural foundation for the spiritual life and that natural foundation, that's human formation.

I mean, that's straight out of St. Thomas Aquinas, right? Grace perfects nature. It has to have nature to perfect. And so as a Catholic psychologist, that's what my career is all about. And that's the way that I help out in this little corner of human formation in the great big vineyard. You know, this is [00:05:00] where I'm working to kind of in, in the mission of the church.

And that's what really floats my boat. Cause I think it's really underappreciated, you know, how much we need to really be human first so that, you know, we can, we can, Flourish so that we can live lives of joy and peace and love and to draw other people to Christ. We have to be fully human and that requires us to do some, you know, fully human work even before we start getting into all the intellectual formation and the spiritual formation and the pastoral formation.

Good stuff. No, I love that. And that we take a similar approach, at least in thought about how, you know, just, we can't discount the human. It's so important. We can't just like focus on, you know, only the spiritual or the intellectual, like you said, it's so, so important. So to someone listening though, who's like human formation, what, what is that?

And maybe what is it, how does it differ a little bit from personal development, which is maybe a little bit more in like the secular world? You know, I think there's a lot of confusion about that. When I think about human formation, I'm not talking about. You know, personal [00:06:00] development or professional development per se, or, you know, or the kinds of things that you might think about, like, Oh, I'm going to take a course in this.

I'm talking about the raw humanity. I'm talking about like the intensity of emotions. I'm talking about, you know, thoughts, beliefs, attitudes, desires, impulses. I'm talking about the unconscious. The stuff that we don't allow into conscious awareness because it's pretty threatening. So I am about going deep into these things, resolving and healing from wounds that, you know, we sustained when we were little and, and when we were older too, and doing that in a way, obviously I have a therapy practice.

So I do that, you know, with my clients, but I'm also about bringing the best of those resources, like secular resources included into a form, into a way that I can. Other people can access them without actually having to be in therapy or without having to, you know, be in counseling or coaching or something like that.

I love that. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I could see how that would, you know, it's kind of a totally different thing than any sort of active work that you're doing on yourself and like the quote unquote personal development space. So obviously [00:07:00] there's a part of, you know, human formation, human development that would include that, but you're looking at maybe the raw material, the things that right in the past and then how they impact your present and will impact your future.

Did I hear that right? Yeah, exactly. And so, so when we think about human formation, we're talking about like the, the sum total of what's going on and the natural realm within the person. And that crosses so many different domains. That's really good. I remember hearing, um, and you correct me if this is wrong, but Carl Jung.

He has this quote as at least attributed to him that said, unless you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate. That's right. He said this, he said something like something, I think that's pretty close to exact quote and it's true. It's true. You know, I mean, if you think about an iceberg, you know, and the part of the iceberg that's above the water is what's in conscious awareness.

Well, there's a lot that's below the water and it's, what's below the water that sinks ships. So it's below the water that sinks ships. And so I'm all about elevating those, those icebergs, getting them up out of the water more and more because, you know, [00:08:00] we can go right back to Socrates, right? Know thyself, you know, or to our Lord, right?

Remove the beam from your own eye. And if we are not integrated, if we are fragmented inside, which is an effect of sin, the original sin, the sins of others, our own personal sins. In fact, the word, you know, devil Diablo means scatterer. It means fragmentor. And so we are now understanding within sort of the cutting edge of trauma research and, and theory within psychotherapy, uh, research that One of the hallmarks that's getting a lot of attention now of mental health is integration.

How integrated is the person? And you know what? St. Thomas Aquinas was writing about that in the 12th century. He talks about it in terms of inner unity. Some translators will translate him as saying, it's talking about interior integration, but he's saying that if you don't have that interior integration, if you don't have that inner unity, you're not going to be able to form a union with anyone else.

Wow. Very well. And so the degree to which you [00:09:00] have that inner unity is the limit to which you can form a union with somebody else, including God. And so for those of you in the audience that really want to overcome, you know, this, this, the fragmenting effects of your own, of your own trauma and of your own experience, we really want to have that integration so that we can break these cycles, you know, that are such a focus of, The beautiful work you do on this podcast.

Yeah, no. And likewise, right back at you. You guys are doing it at even a deeper level, which I love. One of the things you made me think of was how so often in our culture, we put such an emphasis on like the cognitive, the intellectual, like knowing like how to, and so for example, it's like, okay, it's great.

If I know a lot about marriage, it's great. If I know a lot about what it takes to have a good marriage, it's very different than like, Acting on that, putting that, implementing it, putting it into action. And that's where I see in my own life and in the lives of the people that we walk with, the young people we walk with, that's the disconnect, the behavior change and whatever other changes in their lives, like don't come [00:10:00] about often because what you're saying, this unconscious, the subconscious, um, these barriers that hold us back.

And so that's where I'm so excited to kind of hear about internal family systems and talk with you more about that. But before I move on, any comments on that? Yeah, absolutely. Like you had this great quote in episode 146 of interior integration for Catholics when you were being interviewed with Jerry Crete and you said, we need to know this in our bones.

And I just love that language. I actually use that language as well. It's not just head knowledge. It's what's going on right in the heart and the heart. We want this integrated throughout all of us so that it doesn't remain simply in the realm of the abstract or the conceptual. Because it's going to have a very limited impact there.

It's not a bad start, but it can't be where we end up. I love that. And that's what hit me right away when I was reading, um, your content. It's so practical. It's so down to earth, which is so good. Cause it's often people in this space are often a little bit elusive, which I think is a struggle for people.

We don't get as much value from it. So I think it's great that you're so practical. Uh, on that note, I know we're going to be talking about internal family systems, but a lot of people listening right now, [00:11:00] including myself have very limited knowledge of that. So what is internal family systems and how might it help someone So internal family systems will originated as a form of therapy and by Richard Schwartz, you know, back in the late 1980s, early 1990s, and he was a family therapist.

And so he was very interested in systems like, how did this, how does the system of a family work? And he found that when he was doing. Family therapy and things were changing in the family and positive ways that that change was not being internalized right away. In other words, there was a pretty significant leg and that there's actually an internal family.

In other words, the father of the family is represented, you know, within the daughter, you know, and the mother of the family is represented in some way within the son. And people are reacting to those internal images or those internal representations more than they're. Reacting to what's actually going on in real time with the real relationships.

And so sort of this idea as a family therapist that, wait a [00:12:00] minute, we have these parts, you know, his clients were starting to talk to him in terms of parts. And so my colleague, uh, Jerry Crete, the co founder of souls and hearts actually wrote a whole book on, on this called, um, let me say the heart where he goes back and traces things historically though, all the way back.

And so there's a whole history within our Catholic church about how we are both a unity and a multiplicity. And that's really one of the central, the central ideas within internal family systems or parts and systems work is that yes, we are one, but we're also many kind of like an orchestra is one, but it's also got these component parts to it.

Right. And so what I think is really helpful is to, is to understand how different parts react to different experiences. So let's just take the case of a divorce. I think there is many reactions to parents divorcing as there are parts within us. And these parts are, are often at fighting about that.

They're polarized about this one part, you know, is really wanting to connect with mom and dad and make peace in the [00:13:00] family. Another part's really angry at mom and dad and wants to be able to express Brass that as a need to sort of get that out and to make them here. Right. And another part is really afraid of what would happen if, if we were real.

So there's this internal civil war going on with all these different factions, aligning and polarizing. And what I love about internal family systems and parts of systems approaches is that it helps us to make sense of the chaos inside, and it helps us to be able to communicate that and to share it and to get it out and to understand it.

And it ultimately, it helps us to love ourselves, to love our neighbors and ultimately to love God, to carry out the two great commandments, which is what really floats my boat about this is that it helps us to carry out the two great commandments upon which the entirety of the law and prophets hang.

And that's the summary of our Catholic faith. Beautiful. I mean, it adds so much meaning to your life too, when you, when you love, when you go beyond yourself. And so I've certainly seen that in my own life, when I'm the most selfish, I'm the most empty and [00:14:00] miserable. When I love the most in a healthy way, I have the most meaning.

I have the most, even like energy and passion for life. And so I think that focus of like love being the meaning of life, we're here to love and to be loved is so key. And then the question becomes, well, what's preventing us from doing that? Well, and that's where I think this framework is. So, Appropriate and so helpful because we can remove those barriers.

Well, and you know, one of the things that we can easily assume, but it's not true. It's one of the great lies is that the obstacles to loving and being loved are always vices, you know, are always, you know, selfishness or something like that. And I would argue that there are, there's a lot in the natural realm that can keep us from, uh, from being loved, uh, that contributes to that, or that, um, keeps us from loving others.

Just natural level developmental work, human formation work that should have been done when we were 18 months old or 14. Four years old. This is before we even reached the age of reason. So we're not responsible for [00:15:00] it. And, and yet if we don't do that work, it's going to, it's going to get in the way of us being able to love.

So again, that's our little corner of the vineyard at souls and hearts, uh, which is all about like that human formation work, that really basic work. I'll give you an example. This is how it all started. Like when I was a psychologist, I realized that when I worked through father issues with my clients, like toxic relational stuff with dad, their relationship with God, the father got so much better.

And I wasn't doing any spiritual work with them. I wasn't doing spiritual direction, nothing in the spiritual realm, but because they got over that human formation issue with dad, dad and father images as toxic, they now were freed up to be able to engage with God as father in a much deeper way, you know, and, and get over some of the issues that they had, you know, in terms of the way they understood God or, you know, experienced God phenomenologically, which was distorted.

These God images were distorted. And so parts, parts, thinking about things in terms of parts and systems really facilitates that. I've looked at, I've looked [00:16:00] at a lot of different models of change over the years, over the decades, over the three decades I've been working in this area. And this, this is really what I'm finding most helpful for people, both in the natural realm and then the ripple effects as they, as they bring this into their spiritual lives as well.

So. Fascinating. I want to shift gears and through that lens, talk about divorce itself and the trauma of divorce. And so I'm curious in your professional opinion, what you've seen in your practice, as well as the research you've seen, like why is divorce so impactful? So often traumatizing for young people who, who go through it, you know, witnessing their parents marriage, maybe having a lot of dysfunction, like extreme dysfunction or a separation or a divorce.

Why is that so impactful? Well, the first primary condition of secure attachment, according to Brown and Elliot, their book, 2016, they reviewed all the attachment literature. Their book is called attachment disturbances in adults. The first primary condition of secure attachment is a felt sense of safety and protection, a [00:17:00] felt sense of safety and protection.

It's not just actually being safe, objectively safe, but it's feeling safe. And the original place that we get that is from our parents, or at least where we should get it. And one of the things about these parts that we were talking about is that we have parts that are very young phenomenologically, like might be two years old, five years old, and parts get stuck at different points when there is experiences that are overwhelming.

One of the definitions of trauma, for example, is. As an experience, that's so overwhelming that it can't be processed using, you know, what we have as our, in our resource, in our resources at the time. So it gets sort of encapsulated. Right. And so when children are young and parents split, there's huge impact on the felt sense of safety and protection, and there's a huge impact on feeling seen, heard, known, and understood, which is the second condition of secure attachment.

And feeling reassured, calmed and soothed the third condition of secure attachment and feeling delighted in [00:18:00] right. And little kids are going to believe that they have some way to control this. They have to have some way that they feel that they can control the events in their lives. And when they look at parents struggling in conflict, the potential for divorce, splitting up separation, that is an existential crisis for kids.

They don't know whether they're going to live through that because their experiences. I need both a mommy and a daddy and they don't have a broader frame of reference to understand like that. There might be other ways to survive this. So they're gonna, they're going to do everything they can to try to keep, try to keep mom and dad together.

And they're going to help. Own it. They're going to feel responsible for it because if they're responsible for it, that means they have the control. If they have the responsibility, then they have the control. There's a fantasy and illusion that by leveraging their position as a little child or an older child in a family, that if they just do the right things, if they say the right things, if they look the right way, if they get good enough grades in school, if they succeed enough in athletics or [00:19:00] whatever it is that they hope would bring mom and dad back together.

They're going to try that. And parents often, whether they're in contentious relationships or not, they have relatively little understanding of how much this impacts kids. The same dynamics go on in, in healthier families too. It's not, it's not unique. So, so yeah, we don't, we don't appreciate often as parents, the impact of the intensity of these things on kids.

Wow. And so parts get stuck holding different parts of this. Right. You know, like I was talking about the rage and the, and the desire and the fear and the yearning, you know, um, and, uh, and so kids are often left to their own devices in these families because there's a lack of attunement to what the internal experience of the child is.

They've got to figure it out on their own, which leads to things being walled off, separated stuff down in the unconscious, the bottom of the iceberg starts getting bigger and bigger. And, um, There's going to be work to do to kind of work through that later in life. Then the same kinds of things happen when, when folks are older though, to like divorce.

A lot of times you will see divorces happen after marriages are 20 to [00:20:00] 30 years along. And the idea behind that is while the kids are grown, they're all at least in high school or they're in college or they're adults, they've launched whatever. So this is the time where we can divorce. We stayed together for the kids.

It has a much. Underappreciated, a very underappreciated impact and intensity of impact because it activates all kinds of things within young adults as well. And I think that is an area that we're only starting to be able to, as a field within traumatology, to be able to understand more deeply.

Everything you said rings so true. It makes me think of just like the common phrase we often use of like, you know, you're acting like a child, you know? And so like what I hear you saying is. Yeah, you actually, that child within you or that part of you that is kind of stuck at that three year old or 10 year old or whatever is actually running the show in that moment because it was triggered in this way or that way.

Am I hearing that right? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I mean, in some ways this is supposed to be the case, right? You know, our Lord said, let the little children come to me and do not hinder them [00:21:00] for the kingdom of God is made up of such as these. If you look at the Latin and the Vulgate, uh, for that verse, the word that's used for little child is parvolo.

And that's a diminutive of the word parvo. Parvo in Latin means little child. So when you make it a diminutive, it's like saying it's a little, little child. Like we're talking like toddlers here. And so, you know, in, in the gospel reading from a few days before we recorded this, you know, our Lord said he put a little child in front of them.

Cause they were arguing about who's going to be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven takes a little child. Whoever does not become like this little child shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Right. And a little child again. And so we need these parts of us that are small, that are young deaf, To help us with those childlike qualities that allow us to connect in right relationship with God, our father, as a beloved little son or a beloved little daughter of God, our father, and also, and also a beloved little son or a beloved little daughter of Mary.

Those are our primary parents. Our primary parents are our spiritual [00:22:00] parents. So one of the beautiful things about this as a psychologist is that I don't have to rely on finding like substitute parents, you know, I mean, if my clients could connect with God as father and Mary as mother, they can take care of any father wound, any mother wound that you could possibly have.

And that's, that's how God works in his providential grace. I think his providential care for us is that any, any problem that he knew was going to happen, any problem in your family, he knew was going to happen before time began. Before time began, he knew every injury you would sustain in being a member of this family and every wound that you would inflict in your own children.

You were a grownup and he had a plan for all of that. And part of that plan is for us to embrace him as our father and for us to embrace Mary as our mother. The perfect parents for us. So as a psychologist, it's amazing when people can connect with that. Yeah. No, it's so freeing and avoids all sorts of traps and pitfalls.

I'm sure some of the pitfalls I've witnessed people fall into when they kind of start doing this work of healing and is one they [00:23:00] might genuinely struggle to love, like the broken parts of themselves or the parts of themselves that they're not as proud about it and don't know the right way to talk about it.

But there's a part of them that they just kind of despise. They even make hate. And, and they think that maybe the goal is to stuff down, get rid of, like minimize, like move beyond that part. But I hear you saying the opposite. Actually, there's something that needs to happen there. All of these parts of us, which were part of the original plan, by the way, it's not like we've fractured into parts.

Like we added a single homogenous personality and we, you know, we got exposed to original sin or we got expelled to the sins of others, our own processes. We fractured into these pieces that we now have to deal with. This was part of the original plan. Remember we're made in the image and like Of God and God is both a multiplicity and a unity.

He is a multiplicity in that is Father, son and Holy Spirit, the Trinitarian God. But he's also a unity. That multiplicity aspect of God allows him to love himself. And that's unique in the history of understanding God. I mean, that is like. Totally different than [00:24:00] even other monotheistic religions, you know, which would understand God as a single entity, kind of homogenous, uh, without this multiplicity aspect.

And so, and we have a command to love ourselves, right? The second great commandment, love your neighbor as yourself, which means that we are somehow supposed to have a relationship with ourselves. You can't have love of oneself commanded by our Lord himself. And this is in the second great commandment.

This is not some little obscure passage in numbers or, you know, or Leviticus or something. This is like the second upon which, you know, the entirety of the law and the prophets hang. So we need to understand what it means to love ourselves in a really ordered way. And, uh, and this parts and systems thinking really helps us to be able to do that.

But I'm wondering like we, and we talked about this a little bit, I'm wondering if, if I can show you a little bit about what this is, would that be okay? I love that. And I had one question before we move on, but I'm, and I'm totally game to do that. I think one of the, um, confusions you already hit on this a little bit, but I really want to spell it out for our audience, sometimes another pitfall I see.

The young people were leading fall into is that they [00:25:00] might think that this healing stuff or all the brokenness is someone else's job to fix, right? And in a sense, it might be right. It's like we should be bringing that to God or to the right people, maybe to a therapist. But sometimes I see. You know, I've, I've even fallen into this in my past where we kind of peg this onto another person in our life, thinking that they are going to be the savior.

They're going to come through and fix and solve anything. And I see a lot of people falling into that pitfall and I'm getting really hurt through it and ending up like not moving forward in their life. They just stay stuck. So would you speak to that? If anyone's struggling with that at the moment? Sure.

So I like to think about this in terms of a poker analogy. So, you know, in terms of your parents and the environment that you were brought up and so forth, that's like the hand that you were dealt, right? You're not going to be judged on the hand you were dealt. You're going to be judged of the way you played that hand.

And as Kenny Rogers said in the song, the gambler, every hand's a winner and every hand's a loser. Right? You can play it in a way where you were, you know, it works out in God's providential plan or even that [00:26:00] even the most advantageous of circumstances can turn sour. If you know, if we're not seeking to love the Lord, our God, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

So I would say that I would also say that a lot of the efforts in the ways that we get into trouble is when we want to delegate our human formation work to somebody else. You know, when we want to sort of have somebody else take that over, especially as well as as adults and the bishops of the American Catholic church, the USCCB are really clear about this in the program for PC formation, sixth edition.

This is the document that governs seminary, the formation of seminarians. And they say that the seminarian is the primary person responsible for his own formation. And that's actually the case for all of us. That doesn't mean we can do everything by ourselves, but we need to be taking an active participatory role in this.

And so there are things, for example, that we are going to require the help of others and the help of God for, but we have to bring ourselves to that help. So I would definitely say that it's a, it's a both and there rather than a sort of either, [00:27:00] or either I just pull myself up by my bootsteps by myself or somebody else takes care of this for me.

Now, when you're, when you're three months old, obviously you're not going to do it on your own, you know, or if you're, if you're five years old, you know, you're limited in what you can do along those lines, but you reach the age of reason and you can begin making choices about this. So, so good. Let's dive into this exercise.

I'm really excited to go through this with you and to see what comes with it. So this is an experiential exercise. I do a lot of these on my podcast, interior integration for Catholics. So we do a lot of these in the resilient Catholics community. Uh, we, cause, cause we want to again, get to the heart, right?

We don't want to just stay in the head. We want to get to the heart. And so this is for you, you out in the audience. Um, and a couple of cautions about this, uh, first one is. That we really want to do this in a space where you have the time and the conditions to really enter into your own internal experience.

So this isn't something you should do when you're driving or when you're working out, or if you're making dinner, or if you're engaged in some other activity, this is something that's gonna, gonna [00:28:00] require your whole attention. Second thing I would say is let's do this in a way that is helpful to you. All right.

So if I offer you something in this experiential exercise or this meditation, that isn't helpful to you, you can let it go. You can let it go. You don't have to follow it. It's not, this isn't something to be, uh, that's mandated in any way. It is really, really rare, but still there's a possibility that for some people, this could be triggering or it could be a difficult.

So if you find that you are leaving your window of tolerance, kind of going to a fight or flight response, you're dropping into a dorsal vagal shut down freeze response, going to recommend that you stop, you know, you get regrounded. And that you, um, that you understand that again, we want to make sure that this is something that's helpful to you at the right time in the right place.

Right? So, uh, so no need to press on with that. Let's pay attention to what's going on there. We really want to make sure that we maintain that first primary condition of secure attachment, which is a felt sense of safety and protection kind of across different parts. So those are some some ideas along those lines.

It can [00:29:00] be helpful. To, uh, to have some pens and paper pencils and paper in case, you know, there's, you might want to write some things down as you come into contact with, with different experiences inside or different parts inside. And, uh, and yeah, this is really sort of a sample and I'm going to keep it fairly simple, right?

The sort of sample of what some internal family systems of informed approaches or parts and systems. Informed approaches to going inside look like, and so if you find that you're doing some really wonderful work too, and you're watching this as a recording, just go ahead and hit pause. You know, can it continue that beautiful work?

You can resume it when the time seems right. So you have that option as well. Yeah. So do you have any questions, any questions, joy, anything that comes to mind in response to kind of getting ready for something like this? I love the point you made about, like, this is heart work, not just head work. Um, I think that's so, so important because again, like we talked about before, I've even seen this trend in myself where we kind of fall into procrastinal learning or what some people call like mental masturbation, where it's like, we just want to consume our content and [00:30:00] hear about healing and we never actually want to do the work in ourselves.

Um, which is a big trap and we're not going to see, I think, like growth and movement in our life until we do something like this where we're sitting down and actually digging deep. So that's what I'm going to try to do. And I, that's what I encourage everyone to try to do as well. Don't just think about this stuff, but kind of connect your heart to the feeling side of it.

And, um, any guys out there, I think they're too macho for this. Like do it anyway, you're going to benefit from it. Well, and I would, I would again say, if you're seeing some concerns, red flakes coming up, you know, if you're, you know, I would say, don't, don't power through that. Let's listen to that. Cause some, some people need to.

Need to have some accompaniment with this. That's more individual and one on one, you know, they initially need their own person with them, but a lot of people could really benefit from this. So, uh, even in this kind of format, in fact, I do the, I've done hundreds of these kinds of experiential exercises.

So, so something that's kind of uniquely tuned, uh, to the audience here of restored, I've been thinking about this. So, and it's so great to have you Joey and for you to be game about doing this too. And, and so, yeah. Um, we'll go ahead and kind of get started with it. So, [00:31:00] and this will go for somewhere between somewhere around 12, 12 to 14 minutes, you know, just so in case people are wondering like how much time, so yeah, about 12 to 14 minutes.

So, um, so I'm just going to invite you. To notice and what's just happening in inside right now, and just kind of, we're not trying to change anything. We're not trying to make anything happen. We're just trying to be aware of what our internal experience is in this moment. And if it's helpful to you to shut your eyes, that's great.

If you want to keep them open, that's fine. So much freedom with this.

But to just notice what's happening inside and to acknowledge the reality of whatever's happening inside. That doesn't mean we endorse every thought or we [00:32:00] give approval to every impulse or, but we just note that it's there. It doesn't mean we have to engage with it or go with it, but just to notice what's already there and to see if we can have a big open heart toward ourselves.

If we can

have an appreciation that even in our wounds, we are still fearfully and wonderfully made.

And would it be okay to just kind of accept that? Or is there something getting in the way?

Every part of us

is fearfully and wonderfully made too. [00:33:00] And that parts are different than the burdens they carry. Shame, rage, fear. Those are all burdens. Those are all experiences. Those are not the parts themselves. They're the burdens that parts can carry. And parts are not their roles. Controlling, criticizing, hiding, those are all roles that parts can play, but they're not the parts themselves.

And so, would it be possible for us to look at [00:34:00] ourselves the way God looks at us, a little bit more like God looks at us, fearfully and wonderfully made, and he saw that it was very good.

And can we notice what gets in the way of that? Cause something might be getting in the way of that right now for you, what might be the objections, the concerns, the arguments that come up inside.

Those are parts of us too.

And can we have an [00:35:00] open heart toward those parts of us that might hate other parts of us, parts of us that might hate our weakness or might hate our shame or might hate our scrupulosity or might hate our, whatever it is inside. are fear.

There are reasons for all these experiences. There are reasons for all these beliefs, assumptions, impulses, desires. Parts, each in their own way, are seeking a good for us. St. Thomas Aquinas says that we always seek a perceived good. These parts are seeking goods for us. But often in ways that are really maladaptive, problematic, sometimes morally wrong.[00:36:00]

Can we appreciate that different parts of us are trying to help us?

Can we be open to that idea? Can

we be open to this idea that we have an innermost self,

deep within us, that

has the qualities it needs to lead and guide our systems? To lead and guide our parts, to be a conduit of graces, to help us connect[00:37:00]

an innermost self that's a bridge to connecting with God in a healthy and good way.

And you might be able to sense these parts. Some people can see their parts. They have a visual representation. Others can hear their parts. Others can see the images that parts are offering, memories. Some parts [00:38:00] communicate through body sensations.

My parts will often play songs, like an internal jukebox, that communicate something they want me to know.

There's a lot of different ways that parts can communicate.

And this may sound really hard to believe, for some parts, [00:39:00] okay? But it is possible for parts to come into much greater harmony.

To be able to come together,

to collaborate, to cooperate

under the right conditions, conditions where there's a sense of leadership and a sense of being loved and cared for. A lot of these parts may be really young,

looking for guidance within. Sometimes parts will Take on the role of leading and guiding your system, but they're not really suited to that takes them out of their naturally adaptive roles.[00:40:00]

It's just going to invite you to notice what parts might be up for you

and what might your parts want you, you as your innermost self to know about their experience. What might they want you to know? We're going to ask parts not to overwhelm you, not to [00:41:00] take you over and not to flood you with the intensity of their experience, but to look at you, you as your innermost self, and to see if there's a space here for you as your innermost self to come to see, hear, know, and understand your parts more deeply and what their experiences were and how they understood their experiences.

What it was like for them,

because often, especially in really difficult circumstances, one part stood in the breach and took it [00:42:00] when times were really hard, when things were overwhelming,

and those parts were heroes. Because it kept that overwhelming experience from flooding into everything and taking us totally out of the capacity to live daily life.

And yet, sometimes those parts get condemned because of the burdens that they care, because of the burdens that they carry because of that.

Can we have a big open heart to those parts that stepped it up and took the heat when things were hard? Not that we're going to unpack all of that. That's not what this is about right now, but to just have an [00:43:00] appreciation for,

for how they've walled off. What is too much for the rest of us to handle, at least at that time.

And if you can't get into that and no, that's okay. Maybe parts are just not at the point where they feel safe enough to be able to engage in that kind of work. We want to be careful about not unpacking too much at once. We want to make sure that we're working in a way that feels safe to those parts of us that protect us and kind of handle our day to day operations.

Really a lot of respect for the ways that things currently work in your system, [00:44:00] but some openness here to some ideas about how things could get better.

And with that, a lot of appreciation for your parts, the ways that they're trying to help you, a lot of appreciation for the good intentions they have for you. Even if they use means that are really problematic in a variety of ways, they, they create impulses

that might be really problematic. There's still a good intention there for the ways that they try to get deep needs met

and an appreciation for any collaboration, cooperation that parts we're able to, to offer in this. [00:45:00] And this work,

a lot of times it's surprising for parts to experience gratitude.

And with that, we'll draw this experiential exercise to a close. If it's helpful to take some time and write a few things down to give parts of voice in writing, and that can be really, really helpful, makes things seem like really real to some parts, or even to draw it out. If they gave you an image to kind of keep that in a parts journal or a parts map.

Yeah. Just want to. Be able to like offer that. So, so yeah, that brings this, this, this to a close and, and uh, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm curious, obviously, Joey, if, you know, whatever you might want to share from that, you know, kind of as a part of a [00:46:00] debrief here. So, yeah, no, it's so much, so much there. I Yeah, I don't know how much I should share because I wrote down a lot.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot this there's not one right way to do this Just like whatever moves you some people won't write at all Others that might write up write a ton because there's so much to like connect with and and so it's all good Yeah, so I'll try to give you a summary without going maybe too into the weeds And if there's anything else anything you want me to explore I'm happy to do that So I have four post it notes filled with different Notes based on the prompts that you gave the, the first thing I kind of struggle with, and maybe this is unique to the format we're doing.

It was like taking off the host hat and then just like kind of tune in. Cause like when you were saying to kind of just notice the sensations in your body, I'm like, I'm kind of in like game on mode, like we're doing an interview here, you know? So I had to kind of step back from that for a second, but.

Once I did, one of those kind of sensations I've been feeling a lot lately is just being very spread thin, just like overcommitted, like lots going on, both in [00:47:00] this, you know, postulate that I'm running and then other areas of my life too. And so that's one of the things. And lately it kind of hit me too. I remember the kind of experience I had the other night where I think sometimes like our busyness can be somewhat of a mask that we had behind and especially had our maybe loneliness behind.

And so I noticed that in me too. Yeah, there's so much more, um, trying to think, there were kind of two, I read this book recently by Mike Foster, if you're familiar with him, but he wrote it, it's called Primal Question and he kind of tied together some of this, um, attachment theory and a little bit of internal family systems and just recognize that for a lot of people, there's like a kind of driving question that they carry with them through life and, uh, for me, I've always struggled to know, and I won't go through all seven, we're going to have Mike on the show in the future, but one of the things that I recognize in me is like just this Part of me just like has such a need and a desire to feel safe.

And that's like, that seems to govern so much of what I do. And then another part of me just has this desire to just feel wanted. And that like has governed a lot of what, [00:48:00] um, I do. And so both of those have been like big blessings and helpful in life. And they've also caused a lot of problems. So those are some of the parts or some of the pieces of this for me, I think, uh, there was a question, which maybe people listening, um, Had this too as like, am I doing this right?

Like I didn't really know, especially since it's the first time I'm doing something like this, I was kind of doubtful. Like, am I doing this right? Am I, you know, I don't know if I'm experiencing it in the way that I should, but that's a part, you know, many of us have a part that is like kind of looking at performance, you know, wanting to do it right.

Wanting to make sure that, you know, and usually that's a part and it's, it's okay. You know, like I'm fond of, of saying that, you know, we're gonna find something out no matter what happens. And, um, so yeah, I'm, I'm not particularly, uh, I don't have a particular script or pattern for something that's, you know, kind of good.

Or not. I mean, there's certain things we don't want to be overwhelmed. We talked about that. Um, but as long as we are making an inquiry, like we're [00:49:00] genuinely interested, we want to connect with our parts. It's one of those things where our Lord tells us seeking, you shall find the real reason why a lot of people do not know themselves is because they don't want to look, they don't want to engage.

They're too afraid of what's in the unconscious. And it makes sense because what's in the unconscious was at the time it happened. Too overwhelming to be tolerated in our, in our awareness. No, but it's not, you know, 1985 all over again, or 1973 or 1992 or 2014, you know, like we're in a different place now.

And so, but parts are caught back in time. Parts are often like stuck at the moment that the difficulties happened, you know, that whatever, you know, so we want to, and that's something that we recognize in, in, in trauma, right? That's why people have flashbacks, for example, when they have, you know, PTSD that's diagnosable or, you know, things like that.

They don't know, they don't, they don't know there's a difference between the past, the present and the future. It all just seems like one great big now. And that's what happens [00:50:00] when a part takes over that blends, which is caught in back in some kind of traumatic event. That makes so much sense. Another thing that came to mind when we were going through the exercise was just like how strong an aversion I have to people who are controlling it's like, and I know, I think everyone feels this at some level, but I know for me in particular, like my goodness, like when I get any sort of a whiff of people trying to like control me, I'm like, I'm either out of here or I'm going to be very like tactful and making sure that you do not control me.

So, um, Yeah. And that's definitely, you know, there's been some good parts or good outcomes that have come from that. Absolutely. Yes. It's protected me. It's definitely, you know, been good. And, uh, my career and, you know, different relationships, maybe that, or the person wasn't respectful of boundaries and things like that.

But then another area is like my marriage. It's been a big, uh, Bad thing because sometimes I think I over interpret and someone's kind of trying to help or speaking, maybe truth, um, or their, you know, their perspective that I think like, Oh, you're just trying to control [00:51:00] me. So a little, maybe overactive at times there.

So that was kind of the first post it notes. I don't know. How did you, well, you know, so here's, here's what I would say. First of all, we have these six attachment needs that I talk about, and then the six integrity needs, it's not just about attachment. It's also about maintaining our integrity. And one of those integrity needs is the need for autonomy, right?

So these are all needs that parts are going to be really focused on, um, and different parts are going to be focusing on different needs. And they have very limited vision when they're not in right relationship with your innermost self. They have a very limited vision. So, you know, I can imagine like I use this example, like a ship is sinking, right.

And you've got two people in a lifeboat, two guys in a lifeboat, and those are like the parts. Right. And one guy is busy trying to load in all the water and the supplies and the food into the lifeboat. And the other guy is busy dumping the water and the supplies overboard. And why? Because they had two different experiences in a lifeboat before the first guy suffered hunger and thirst and starvation in a [00:52:00] lifeboat because they didn't have enough supplies and the second guy experienced a lifeboat capsizing because there was too much water and supplies in the boat, right?

So they're both trying to help. They both have the same goal, right? But they have very different experiences, very different ways to make sense of their experiences, and they're working across purposes to each other. Okay. No, it's so fascinating. I, um, and it makes so much sense and I could see how the context is so important.

Like you're saying, right. And our past experiences, one of the things that hit me hard was, um, when you talked about kind of parts of ourselves that we might hate, um, it took me a second and it took me a little bit on that one to kind of identify it. But I think like even parts that I like kind of value, I maybe have like somewhat of a, you know, I don't know if that's the right word.

Um, I look down upon, um, demise in some way, maybe. So, like in my past, when I was struggling with, you know, sexual compulsions like pornography and things like that, I certainly looked down on my lust, but I also kind of, in turn, looked down on sexuality as a whole. Like any part of like [00:53:00] me that was sexual.

And I think that that has impacted me to this day. I could certainly see like a trend of, you know, yeah, I have to unpack that maybe a little bit more, but you know, I think that, uh, past mistakes in that realm have maybe somewhat twisted and kept me from like the goodness that is meant to be experienced there within marriage.

So that's another thing. And then the two other parts that I identified, um, even that desire to feel wanted, like I mentioned. Part of me is like, looks down on that because it's a form of weakness in a way. It kind of, it's, there's a lot of vulnerability there. And then the other thing too, is that kind of strong need that I have to feel safe, um, has cost me in some ways of, you know, whether I was too nervous to try something or not confident enough.

And it was. You know, doing its job in some sense, but maybe it was just a little dialed up too much to where it prevented me actually from having really good things. I know, especially a lot of people from, you know, divorced and broken families. We deal with, you know, just a lot of struggles in relationships.

[00:54:00] And I remember hearing stories of people who they would just like break off engagements or wouldn't even start dating to begin with because they had like this such strong fear of repeating the pattern that they saw in their parents marriage. And I certainly saw that in my own life. And so I trust that God's brought me where he needs me to be, but it's sad to look back on some, you know, really good and beautiful.

didn't go anywhere because of some of these, you know, some of this brokenness that I was dealing with. So that's just the parts that I think I struggle with maybe loving. Well, would you be interested in, I'm just gonna invite you to take a little minute here and go back inside and just see if it would be okay.

To kind of connect with both the part of you that wants to be wanted wants to be in relationship seeks that and the part of you that really wants you to be safe like if those two parts might be interested in getting to know each other a little better or if that seems like that's not something that that seems you know.

Like a good time to do or a good format to do, because yes, I mean, there is an awareness. This is a podcast episode and so forth. [00:55:00] So, but I'm just curious if you're noticing kind of an openness in your system across parts to that, or if any parts objecting, if any parts objects to that, we don't do it.

Because there's a reason for the objection and we would want to make sure that all parts would be on board so that we don't steamroll apart or we don't, um, just, just sort of bulldoze apart because it's standing in the way of some sort of, you know, agenda that other parts have. If this is good, if anything is good for one part of you, it's actually going to be good for all parts of you.

It's not going to leave one part to twist in the wind. There's a harmony about what's best for a person system. Oh, that's good. I would say, I guess what I'm sensing, what I'm experiencing is it's not so much the venue. Like I'm, I'm open with our audience here and I'm happy. I hope they can learn something from me.

I think it's more like those two parts seem diametrically opposed. Right. They seem like foes. Like they seem like they. Oh yeah, absolutely. Aren't supposed to be talking to each other. Um, so, so I don't know if there's so [00:56:00] much an objection, but I guess, I guess that's a form of an objection where it feels like those two things.

Go together. They are kind of working on different things. So I love that. That's a great challenge. That's why I picked them. Right. Yeah. But, but the first and first of all, this is only an idea. We don't do it. So this is really an important thing where we kind of negotiate these things. Right. We want to kind of explore.

And I, I want to make sure that in doing this, I'm really free of like an agenda on my end. So I'm totally good with not doing this or doing it or whatever. We can do something different. Um, we don't have to do anything at all. The demo, but, but this is where like an amazing thing can happen. If parts begin to see each other as they actually are not as just the enemy, because that's a very, that's a very narrow, you know, kind of very limited, very inaccurate perception of another part.

No, I want to go deeper here. So, and one thing to clarify there, it was just kind of. Communicate when I was experiencing, I was in no way a critique of you. And no, no, no, no, no, I didn't experience it that [00:57:00] well. And if parts are critical of me, I'm all about that. That's an amazing thing. Let's let's, you know, totally good with that because, you know, uh, cause a lot of this is kind of like parts might not even understand, like if, um, you know, like when little kids go to, um, they've got a medical problem, they'd have to have some sort of procedure done, you know, they have to have a piece of glass removed from their, their arm.

Cause they fell, you know, and whatever road riding their bike. They're not going to understand if they're little, that the physician is helping them, you know, like we have to appreciate that they may totally misinterpret what's going on here. And they can be like, mommy, it's hurting, you know, and, and, and not appreciate it in the moment.

And like I said, these parts are phenomenologically really little. So, so it might mean that there's gotta be a little more trust there, but I'm also, you know, let those parts know that I'm also here. You know, with my innermost self and my parts, you know, which are, which resonate with your parts. Like I have parts that are all about autonomy and I have other parts that are all about connection and I have other parts that are all about safety, you [00:58:00] know, and so gets get that these parts of me resonate with you.

It's not just my innermost self, but it's also my parts that are in right relationship with my innermost self. That makes so much sense. Yeah. And that's, that's more complete. That's more about loving wholeheartedly. The kind of next thought or place that I. Kind of being led is just a question, actually, which I somewhat thinking questions.

You asked that question about kind of what comes to mind. I think memories for me, um, sometimes like body sensations or emotions, uh, realizations for some reason, like things that kind of snap and click together. That's kind of different things that I was experiencing there. But, um, one of them, the question that came to mind was like, what if the safety and the part that like just wants to be wanted, like are in a post.

What if they're actually, what if they're not, what if they're actually working towards a similar goal of helping me like thrive and live like a really healthy, meaningful life. And yeah, that's something like I feel strongly pulled towards considering. Yeah. Just like the two guys in the lifeboat, right?

Both wanting [00:59:00] to help, right? But they have very different ways of going about that. So, yeah, I already sensed that in you. I already sensed that these two parts actually could be at some point, great friends. You know, like that's totally makes sense to me. We're not, I'm not going to try to impose that or anything.

I mean, we have to let things develop, but, but yeah, but for this, that's, that's more than we're seeking. What we're seeking potentially in this is just that they come to look at each other and in a different way, maybe, you know, that this polarization, this conflict between the two of them might be able to soften for a little bit.

And they might be able to understand each other a little better in the presence of you as Joey, you as your innermost self. And does that seem interesting and desirable to parts or are there objections or concerns that we would need to address before that would feel safe enough, especially for the part of you that, you know, has concerned about concerns about safety and protection?

Yeah, I, I know to some people, this might sound strange, but I almost [01:00:00] feel like this bodily sensation of like harmony. I don't know how to explain that better than that, but almost like whether it felt like there was maybe like tension, even on like a physical level, there now seems to be a bit of like relaxation and peace.

Cause it's like, wow, what if those two things are again, not mutually, uh, opposed exclusive, but actually working towards like a similar end. So it's almost like I can, okay. There's not as much of a need to like control or stress or, you know, fight. Yeah, beautiful. And so for those of you in the audience kind of observing this, just going to invite you, if you'd like to, if it feels safe, it feels good in your own systems to, to kind of come along with us on this.

You know, and to notice what may be resonating within your own system. You might notice that there's a part of you that really craves, really craves this, the sense of, of being wanted, of being needed, of being desirable, of being, you know, uh, connected. And another part of you that really has concerns about safety and protection and are really, it's really focused on that [01:01:00] because this is kind of like tuning forks.

And if you take a tuning fork, that's tuned to like a particular note, like C and you ring it, you, you, you strike it and you hold it up to another tuning fork. That's also tuned to see the other tuning folk will begin to vibrate. And this is how I know. A lot about this is how I think about loving other people is I'm looking at which of my, which of my parts are resonating, you know, and I've got parts that are very much resonating with both of these parts and have a sense.

Yeah, that this is something that could be, um, but there could be a lot more understanding, you know, kind of connection. So I'm resonating with your experience of, you know, hopefulness of possibility that things might actually be different internally between these two parts of you. And my mind even goes to like externally to like, you know, relationships, interactions with other people like my wife or yeah, just even tendencies I have or things like that.

Cause I think this, yeah, I think this, um, I can feel this and like my sense is that this goes beyond just like this kind of cool mental emotional exercise, [01:02:00] but it actually can result in, and that's not a critique of anything we're doing. I think it's great, but it can result in, you know, some real transformation.

Not just something that I know some people might be turned off the idea of just like kind of thinking and processing or whatever, but like, no, it can have actually have some measurable like outcomes, quote unquote, measurable outcomes like you can see change in your life. Yeah, absolutely. Because these two parts will also polarize with parts in your wife.

Hmm. You know, the part of you that really seeks safety and protection might polarize with the part of your wife that really wants to be wanted, you know, and so the same kinds of parts that these parts will polarize inside, they're going to polarize when they find those parts in other people. And so that's where a lot of the conflict comes from is between parts of me.

And parts of the other person, you know, and if we can be more wholehearted in relationship under the leadership and guidance of our innermost self, we get a harmony collaboration among parts. I mean, it leads us to be able to love and to be loved so much easier in relationship and marriages, especially.

So yeah, [01:03:00] this isn't just about some sort of navel gazing, you know, self absorbed, you know, kind of effort to self love. Ultimately, this is also about us loving God and being loved by God and loving our neighbor and being able to receive love from whoever God sends our way to, to love us. That's good. I, um, there's so much more I could say, so feel free to stop me at any point.

But one of the memories that came back was, um, with our first pregnancy, we had a miscarriage. I know not everyone can relate to this example, so bear with me here. But, um, I remember like having such a strong emotional reaction to that, um, cause we, we didn't know for sure, but we think we were having a boy.

And there was something inside me that like, even to this day, like during the exercise, I got pretty emotional. over it. And, um, yeah, just like, because safety is so prime, not just in my own life, but I like to provide that for other people too, um, both on a physical level, like with, you know, self defense and different things like that, but also on an emotional level.

And, um, I almost felt like I just like failed to protect my [01:04:00] son. When the miscarriage occurred, like I thinking, you know, going through the typical kind of grief stages of like thinking, man, like there's something I should have done differently that would have prevented his life from ending. And, um, that was like really intense for me.

I remember, um, you know, driving the car after it was like the day we found out I was going to pick up some food. Um, and just like really, really. Um, struggling, like really even like crying and just feeling like I just, I didn't provide that safety and I failed, I failed in a very real way. So I've seen that kind of muscle come out in different ways as well and, and even connected to my parents divorce, but that was a particular, particularly like strong situation where that came up.

Does that make sense to you? You as your innermost self, Joey, that that part has such a deep desire to protect not only yourself, but others. Does that make sense to you? It does, and I think the way I can verbalize it is that when, it does go back to when my parents split. And I remember, you know, we were all in the bedroom, my dad was out of the [01:05:00] house.

My mom sat me and my siblings down and explained what was going on and that dad would no longer be living with us. In fact, they were getting divorced. And especially because I looked up to my dad so much and found a great deal of safety in his presence. I, that immediately was like, my goodness, like that's crazy.

Gone. And then I also felt a lot of anger towards my mom, um, even though she, you know, to this day, looking back at that situation, like I knew she was doing the right thing in that particular context. Well, let that part know that wants safety for yourself and for others. Let that part know that you get it.

Just see if you can notice that part, sense that part, see that part, and let that part know, yes, I get it. I get that you want me to be safe. I get that you want others to be safe, and that's a good and wholesome desire. Let that part know that it's really important, and that you as Joey, you as your innermost self, get it.

Let's see how that lands. Yeah, I don't feel any resistance to that. I think I've [01:06:00] always seen it as like a strength of mine. Great. At least to keep other people safe. I think when it's gotten in the way of me, you know, doing things that I should be doing because I just want to feel safe. I think that's where there's more tension.

Um, but no, that's helpful. And, um, yeah, to close the loop on that story that I was just thinking that, um, no, I remember like just, Not really knowing what to do with all of the news that my mom had shared and just the reality of like my family falling apart and just hiding in the closet and crying. And I couldn't have put it into words then, but a lot of these things that we're talking about came to kind of the surface.

I felt abandoned. I felt unwanted. I felt like I wasn't, you know, enough. I wasn't good enough. No, it didn't feel safe, obviously. So I could certainly see like a clear trend line from that experience to these different experiences, whether it's the miscarriage that we experienced or different struggles and by relationships, um, as well.

So it, it makes sense. Like, it's very understandable. Yeah, totally makes sense to me too. And, and I think we can say that that, that was unbelievably hard for parts. I think we can just speak that to say that was [01:07:00] the word that comes to mind for me is impossibly hard for parts and more than parts at that age could, could be expected to manage.

And I think that's where, um, the instinct in me to protect others comes from, in part. Like, I think before that, I'd always still had that instinct to protect others, but after that, the kind of driving force, even behind what I do with this apostolate, is like, I never want anyone to experience what I went through.

And if they have to, for some reason, I don't want them to go through it alone because I felt like I was going through it alone. There was just no one there to kind of walk with me through it. And so I think that's like one of the driving forces behind those parts. Yeah. To make sure it never happens again.

Yeah. So that part, you know, I I'm sensing I could be wrong about this. You can tell me, but that part maybe has some appreciation for what it's like to not feel wanted or to not feel enough. You know, like there's an appreciation there, you know, it may not be in the same way that the other part that bears that burden, you know, [01:08:00] experiences it, but it's like also trying to help that other part or parts of other people to never be in that position.

Of feeling unwanted, of feeling not enough. Yeah, there's like some value to it, some good that's come from it. I could totally see that. Two final things that, um, I know we're running out of time here, but one, um, when you mentioned like how different parts of you can kind of take the brunt of trauma or take the brunt of challenges that have come into your life, I think, you know, around that time when I was, you know, about 11 years old and I, I think, I don't know if there's like a sexual part of all of us or if that would be a technical like term, but, um, I know for me, it seems like that kind of sexual part of me as a human person ended up taking a lot of the burden of trying to help me feel safe, trying to help me feel wanted.

And, you know, for me, it came out and, you know, You know, pornography and other sexual sins. And, um, just kind of recognize that when you were going through the exercise, that, wow, that part of me has like carried so much, especially at that period of my life, you know, a lot of, a lot of [01:09:00] pornography use for men is really about parts that are in a really maladaptive way, trying to feel seen, heard, known, and understood, trying to feel safe, trying to feel protected, trying to feel delighted in valued, you know, and so forth.

And, and so there's a counterfeit of that. In in porn use for a lot of in the experience of a lot of parts of us, you know, which is one of those reasons why I can kind of come back, even though it's a dead end, even though it's there's an emptiness there, it doesn't actually fulfill the need. Our hearts are still restless.

It can still feel like that might be possible. And so. You know, one of the real, yeah, I think benefits of parts and systems thinking is to help us with sexual compulsions because yeah, parts will often sexualize things, especially if, you know, trauma isn't resolved before we hit puberty because now we've got a whole bodily element to this, a whole endocrine system element to this that can complicate stuff.

And it's true for women as well as men. It's not just men, you know, this becomes very, very embodied in [01:10:00] various ways. And so, so yeah, I mean, that makes. Perfect sense to me. Thank you. And, uh, the final thing I was just going to say to close this out, I, yeah, I definitely have an appreciation for the parts of me that have kept me safe and have kind of helped me to find love and feel wanted and connection, all that.

Um, but yeah, just that, that need to feel safe, I think is something I'll continue to kind of, um, Kind of look at and walk with because I know sometimes, uh, for me, even the sounds so silly, but I, uh, I'm very like careful about my family's safety. So there's like cameras like outside the house and the doors are locked and there's like ways, uh, I won't go too into those ways that I would have ready to protect them.

And, um, we, yeah, it just, Just very careful about like my, my daughter and my wife and my son and myself and we, so in our bedroom, um, we would typically keep the door shut. Right. And, um, lately it would just get a little too stuffy in there. And, you know, we're recording this in the summer, it's humid in here where I'm at and we would keep the [01:11:00] door open.

And like, I kid you not Dr. Peter, sometimes I just like, can't go to sleep. I'm like, just like looking at the door, like waiting for someone to like, come through it. I, uh, so I kind of recognize that part of me that's just like, you know, wants to keep me safe. And then the only other thing I was just going to say along with that was I, um, just got over a sickness recently and my wife was certainly super gracious with like helping me and taking care of the kids and everything.

She was great. But, uh, I caught myself saying something towards the tail end of like, I didn't mean this like rudely, but I kind of just said it in like as a knee jerk reaction. Um, I was like, I could take care of myself. I could take care of myself. I just kind of felt that like, no, no, I can take care of myself.

And um, I think that fierce independence is something that this audience especially, uh, can relate to about, you know, so often we feel like we're on our own when mom and dad are maybe warring with each other or kind of starting restarting their lives going this way, that way. Um, we're kind of left to deal with our own brokenness.

And so we just kind of learned to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps and just kind of keep [01:12:00] going. And, um, certainly have seen that. Uh, hurt my relationships in some ways. So that's, uh, that's how the exercise went for me. So sorry if that was oversharing in any way, but I wanted to be a guinea pig for, that's what I always try to do for this audience.

And so I, uh, I really appreciate you walking through that and open any final things you want to talk about as well. Well, you know, I'm so excited to have been able to connect. Uh, I have a special spot in my heart for family life and, you know, Deep appreciation for even in, in families where, you know, there's not, not divorce because divorce is kind of a low bar, you know, like, yes, we want to not be divorced, you know, but it's not everything, right?

Like people can be struggling, you know, in families where marriages are stressed for decades. And so none of us are going to escape family life. You know, with no trauma, with no injuries, no relational wounds, no attachment injuries, we're all going to experience the slings and arrows of living in our fallen human condition in a fallen world.

So, um, so yeah, just to appreciate that, if these kinds of experiential [01:13:00] exercises resonate with you, you know, like the, and if this kind of like demo, um, resonated with you, you know, this is what we do over at souls and hearts, uh, this is what. The kind of thing that we do on interior integration for Catholics.

Um, so you can check that out on YouTube, um, or on our, uh, wherever you listen to podcasts, interior integration for Catholics. And then we also have like communities where we have people that are working on their own human formation from a parts and systems perspective. Grounded in an authentic Catholic understanding of the human person.

And that's the resilient Catholics community. And then we also have the formation for formators community. Cause I have a special spot in my heart for the human formation of formators. These are therapists and coaches and spiritual directors and priests and seminary formators, and those that have, you know, a responsibility for the formation of others, because I think one of the big things that gets in the way of that.

effective formation of others is a lack of formation in the formator himself or herself. So, cause you can't give what you don't have. So those are a couple of the communities that we have going on at, at souls and [01:14:00] hearts. So yeah, if this is new to you, if you want to find out more about internal family systems, check out episode 71 of interior integration for Catholics, where I lay it out and I talk about 10 of my own parts, um, in, in some detail.

Um, so, so yeah, and there's a lot of the resources. at our website, soulsandhearts. com. So soulsandhearts. com. And I definitely recommend you guys check it out. And so we're impressed with the work you guys are doing. And so I know it will be really helpful for you and you guys, this journey of healing and just growing into a better, stronger person, more virtuous person.

Um, Dr. Peter, before we close down, there's one question I had that I think might be helpful for everyone. Um, do. Each of these parts have like names and is there like a definition of parts? I know we talked a little bit about that, but when I was going through the exercise, that question came up. So I wanted to ask you if there's specific names and if there's like some sort of a definition of a part itself.

Sure. So a definition of a part is like a constellation of emotions. Desires, impulses, attitudes, beliefs, memories, experiences, and making [01:15:00] sense of experiences. So it's not just like a passing mood state. It's like, it's like a, it's own little personality within you. Okay. It's like its own, its own. And it also.

Endures over time. It's just, they don't like appear and disappear. They can come into consciousness and then leave consciousness and it can feel like they appear and disappear, but that's not what actually is going on. They endure over time. And so, so that's, that's how I think about parts, right? This multiplicity within.

And as far as names go, um, sometimes parts will have ways that they identify themselves. Um, sometimes there'll be labeled by other parts, you know, as the bad part or the, the porn using part, you know, which is kind of pejorative. And so, uh, I work when I work with parts, either my own parts or when I'm working with others with their parts, I mean, the naming thing is something we kind of negotiate with the part, you know?

And if the, if the part wants to call herself, uh, you know, a good for nothing low life, it'd be like, well, maybe we can reframe that a little bit, you know, but I'm hesitant to impose a name on a part. You know, without like, kind [01:16:00] of, kind of talking with the part about that, if they're open to it, really helpful.

Thank you for going through that. And I want to give you the final word first off, again, thank you so much for being here for the great work that you're doing. Um, uh, yeah, just really blessed to call you friend now. And I'm looking, I look forward to hopefully future collaborations as well. Um, but yeah, what, what final encouragement or advice would you give to everyone listening, especially someone listening who does feel Kind of stuck and broken in life because of the, the trauma and the dysfunction they experienced at home.

So I'm a big believer. My favorite scripture versus Romans 8 28, you know, all things work together for good for those who love the Lord, who are called according to his decree. And to just trust that. Actually, each of us are beloved little sons and daughters of God. That's our identity. That's our fundamental identity.

And nothing in the fall, nothing in the sins of others, original sin, our own sins, takes that away. The only way that it can be taken away is if we repudiate it, you know, if we walk away from it. And so, so your primary parents. God, the father, Mary, our mother, I really believe that. And then [01:17:00] the differences between the people that I've accompanied who really take off and flourish and those that don't is this question of, can we embrace the love of God?

And can we embrace our identity as being little beloved sons and daughters? And our Lord tells us, you know, in scripture, I loved you first. We don't have to earn it. We don't have to make ourselves worthy of it. You know, can we come as we are? Can we come and receive as a unmerited gift, the love and grace and light and warmth and kindness of God.

Next time Dr. Peter comes on, I love to ask him to break down the Pixar movie inside out. We love that movie and my family, but in the meantime, make sure to check out his website and his podcast will link to the resources he mentioned to in the show notes. I'm very impressed with him and his content. And so I definitely recommend you guys check it out.

That wraps up this episode. If you found this podcast valuable, I invite you to subscribe. So you can not only be notified when new episodes go live, but you can help us actually reach more people. The more subscribers we have, the more the podcast apps will suggest our show to people who are looking for the kind of help that we offer.

[01:18:00] Again, we love serving you. And if you found it helpful and you'd maybe like to thank us subscribing or following on whatever app you use is really an easy way to do so. And only takes a few seconds. In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#129: What Does It Mean to Be Healthy & Whole? | Matthew Rudolph

We talk a lot about being healthy and whole, but what exactly does it mean to be healthy and whole?

We dive into that topic in this episode with a man who’s been accomplished as a CEO but has also worked hard on himself as a husband and father, plus:

• Why honesty and vulnerability are essential for healing and growth, and how forgiveness has been very healing for him

• The 4 stages of growth required to love well

• A resource for leaders, pastors, and seminarians

Visit ChrismPriest.com

Email Matt: matt@chrismpriest.com

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Visit BlackStoneFilms.co

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: [00:00:00] We talk a lot about being healthy and whole, but what exactly does it mean to be healthy and whole? It's important we get this right because if we don't, we might end up aiming for a target that isn't even possible to hit. And so in this episode, we dive into that topic with a man who's been an accomplished CEO, but who's also worked hard on himself as a husband and a father.

We discuss things like what honesty and vulnerability are essential for healing and growth. My guest shares how forgiveness has been one of the most healing things for him. We discuss. How to best measure how healthy you are, not just physically healthy, but your health overall as a person. We get into big topics like what's the point of life, and we talk about the four stages of growth that are required to love well.

And finally, my guest offers a resource for leaders, pastors, priests, and seminarians. Stay with us. [00:01:00] Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family, so you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 129.

We're so happy that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard a ton of great feedback. One listener said this, I have found your podcast episodes very healing, and I've passed on to friends and even seminarians and newly ordained priests. God continues to heal me of my broken childhood, and your podcast has been a big and safe place to go to receive it.

Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. In a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of millennials said that video is their top content choice. And that's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that?

Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know, you need to create video content, but you don't know where to start. And it can honestly leave you feeling kind of overwhelmed to the point where [00:02:00] you just give up. On it altogether. And you just go back to what you know, to what's comfortable, even if that's not what's best for your business or your ministry, that's where Blackstone films can help you.

They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel they can create things like trailers, promo videos, and commercials, social media videos. Documentaries, um, fundraising videos and courses. We actually filmed two video courses with them, which we're still giving away for free.

Um, and we had an excellent experience with them and their team, and you can see the value, you can see the quality for yourself on our website if you'd like. And so whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about. Helping you not just create video content, but create a clear win for your business or your ministry, such as fundraising for your ministry, selling a course, getting leads for your business, getting students to sign up for your school, promoting your event, and so much more.

Blackstone has reached millions of people around the globe with their videos, and they can help you too. And so if you want to view past projects, view the services that they offer, or maybe even schedule a free console, initial consult with them, just go to blackstonefilms. [00:03:00] co. Nat. com, Blackstonefilms. co, or just click on the link in the show notes.

My guest today is Matthew Rudolph. Matt is a husband and father of four children in 2015. He joined the founders of Amazing Parish, Pat Lencioni, a famous business author, consultant, and John Martin, and spent the next eight years leading coaching and content efforts for nearly a thousand priests and bishops.

across the country. He most recently served as the executive director of Amazing Parish and recently stepped down for helping priests integrate human formation, leadership, and healing. In co founding Chrism, which he'll tell you more about in the show, he hopes to equip even more clergy with practical skills and confidence so they can become the leaders and spiritual fathers that they are called to be.

One disclaimer, we do talk about God and faith in this episode. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, you're totally welcome here. I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is just listen with an open mind.

Even if you skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this [00:04:00] episode. And with that, here's our chat. Matt, welcome to the show. So good to have you, man.

Matt: Thanks, Joey. Great to be here.

Joey: I'm excited to talk about this topic because as we both know, we live in a very broken world. We live in a world that One way to put it would be this.

It's very unhealthy. There's a lot of like unhealthiness in our world on so many levels. And like me, you've had your own journey with brokenness and just kind of going through seasons of unhealthiness. Are there any particular moments in your life where you felt maybe the most broken or the most unhealthy?

Matt: Joey, that is a loaded question because the more that I learn about myself, the more I'm like, oh man, I have so much more work to do. But, uh, the two moments that really come to mind are really my first year of marriage. You know, I had studied theology and philosophy and scripture and I knew a lot of things about, Marriage and, and the beauty of marriage and how to live it out.

I knew it in my head and I even think I knew it in my heart, but I didn't actually practically [00:05:00] know how to do it and how to give a gift of myself. I didn't perhaps have enough self possession and self awareness to be able to do that well. And so my first year of marriage, I was in marriage counseling. I was counseling and counseling for myself and, and I needed help.

I really needed help. And so my wife helped me realize my own brokenness. She didn't do anything wrong. It just in being married, I realized that I didn't have things together in the ways that I thought that I did. And so, yeah, if anyone's listening and they're a year into marriage and like, man, did I fail?

You did not fail. We just need help. And I needed help my first year of marriage. And the second time was, was really, and this is hard to admit and hard to say, but I was probably five years into being a father before I, before I was honest with myself. And could admit that I really didn't enjoy being a father and it was a lot of my own brokenness and my lack of health and my lack of selflessness [00:06:00] and I wasn't able to give to my children in the ways that I wanted to, and it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks, like the father that I wanted to be and dreamt about being in the, you know, the, the wounds that I wanted to heal, like generationally and like how I could give to my kids, I wasn't that father, that wasn't who I was.

Thanks. That's not how I was behaving. I didn't have the patience, the virtue, the love, the care for my children. I had a lot of the things, other things going on in my heart and mind that were distracting me. So, you know, I mean, and it sounds like, wow, what a failure, Matt, you're called to be married and to be a father.

And those are the two things that I realized my brokenness and my, you know, my lack of health and my lack of kind of integration were really those two big, big areas of my life.

Joey: Thank you for sharing so openly, so vulnerably, and man, I can't relate on so many levels. I've totally seen that in my own life.

Like, the areas I think where we're most called to greatness are often the areas where we struggle the most, where we kind of realize our lack. And when I think of, you know, [00:07:00] movies or any sort of story, right? That's the heroic journey of, like, realizing, like, hey, I want this thing. Like you said, I want to be this great father and husband.

I want to, like, break the cycle of brokenness and wounds from the past. But I can't do it. Like I really can't do it on my own. And especially when you come to that realization where it's like, no, like I, I thought I could do it on my own, but I actually really can't do it on my own. Yeah. It's actually a really good and beautiful moment.

And I think, um, that's where we reach out for help. We get those guides, those mentors in our life who help us to kind of win the day and give us the plan we need and, you know, challenge us and all that. Good stuff. And so no, I think it's like, it's such a beautiful moment, but when you're in the midst of it, it's like, this is not beautiful.

This is not fun. It's, it's really grueling. And, uh, and especially on the marriage front, I, yeah, I think, um, one of the things we see through the data about children of divorce is that that's the area of your life that's most impacted by your parents divorce. That's the area of your life that you're typically going to struggle the most in is in your own marriage and your own romantic relationships.

And so, um, [00:08:00] man, I felt that. I felt that, you know, at a deep level in my dating relationships, um, even in my friendships to an extent, um, but especially in marriage, it's like I almost feel, you know, a bit incompetent. I felt a bit incompetent, certainly have gained virtue and grown in those areas, but man, it's, it's grueling, it's hard.

And so I think it's, um, really freeing and helpful. And one of the lessons I've learned from you over the years too, I've, I've known you over the years, I've gotten to know you more lately, um, but I've been observing you from afar. And lately I've Get more of a glimpse into how awesome you are. Um, and I think like that power of just admitting like, yeah, I'm struggling here.

I'm not where I want to be is so, so powerful. Talk about that for a second. Like even just that acknowledgement, like, why is that so powerful? Why is it so helpful?

Matt: You know, Joey, in my life, I don't know all the factors that played into this, but Growing up and even, you know, in high school and college was kind of a break from this.

And then I kind of went back to it after college in many ways, but gosh, I guess the concise way of saying it is admitting your weaknesses to [00:09:00] me was a sign of failure. It was a sign of, I didn't plan well enough. I wasn't disciplined enough. I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't virtuous enough. I wasn't holy enough, fill in the blank.

I wasn't blank enough. And admitting my weaknesses and brokenness meant that I wasn't. And I think that's, that's a lie. That's a lie that I've been really working in my life to overcome and address and allow the Lord to speak truth over those lies. But those are lies that I believe for a very long time.

And so admitting weakness for me showed. Great vulnerability to be hurt and to be, yeah, to be weak, I think, and that's what I associated, you know, admitting that with, you know, I associated admitting my weaknesses with being weak, not good enough, not whatever enough, and Joey, it really is allowing the Lord into that brokenness, and there's actually so much more freedom now to not say I need to hide this and cover it, but to say, let me show you that I'm not fully [00:10:00] together.

And friends and family and wife, Danielle's my wife, like this is broken and I need your help. And, you know, our, our path, our, our vocation is to get each other to heaven. And I need my wife. I need her to become the man that I'm called to be and to be the saint that I'm called to be. And so I think for a long time, I just was in self preservation mode.

And I was too afraid to admit my weaknesses and the areas that I needed help in. And there's been a great freedom in more recent seasons of my life to name those things and to invite others into those areas of brokenness and weakness.

Joey: No, I love that. And I always admired people who are not, you know, kind of addicted to secrecy or to controlling their own image, or at least they get to that point where they're able to be more vulnerable and open.

I remember there was a couple recently who I spoke pretty openly about different struggles they've had and even mistakes they've made as a couple in the past, like individually as a couple too. And um, I remember just like having so much admiration for them and thinking like, wow, you can be so [00:11:00] honest and so open about like what you're going through and where you've messed up.

There's something really great and beautiful. And I think that does lead to transformation. And on that note of transformation, I'm curious, like what transformation or transformations occurred in your life? I know some are ongoing and that's really beautiful, um, that have kind of led you from maybe that.

Yeah. place of struggle to a better spot to where you are today.

Matt: Gosh, I'm a work in progress, Joey. So the other side of transformation, I wouldn't say I'm there, but I think the Lord is transforming parts of my heart and parts of who I am. And, you know, going to counseling was really helpful for me. And what it did is it allowed me to start seeing things as they were.

And to no longer have my blinders up or my perceptions of things or even my self preservation up, like it allowed me to start being honest and vulnerable and seeing things as they were. So that was a huge step of transformation. Instead of seeing myself as completely weak or not good enough or not whatever enough, I started to see, gosh, [00:12:00] there's actually Patterns in my life.

There's people in my life. There's memories in my life that are affecting me and my behavior. And no wonder it's hard for me to, you know, journeying uphill and climbing a mountain without, um, any breaks. And so I think just that counseling allowed me to see things a little more for what they were. It doesn't take away my part.

It doesn't take away You know, my culpability in things, but it did allow me to see things more fully. So that allowed me to actually start working on things and working at the root of things. And so I really was able to start seeing my brokenness, not just through Matthew, the failure, but through like a fuller story and a fuller picture of my context.

And I started to see gaps in my formation. I even started to see gaps in my formation, upbringing as a child and could understand, Oh, this is connected to that. That makes a lot of sense. And I, that was really transformative for me. It allowed me to start forgiving myself. It allowed me to start forgiving [00:13:00] others.

And I think forgiveness has honestly been the biggest power of transformation in my life. I've needed a ton of forgiveness from others. And. You know, just recently, you know, I was at the National Eucharistic Congress and, you know, was, was praying that the Friday reflection, the theme was all about, um, mercy and repentance, right?

And that evening, it just hit me like a ton of bricks, like my, my relationship with Jesus was hindered because I've not forgiven someone in my life. And there were actually multiple people that came to mind that I needed to forgive and ask forgiveness from as well. And so I think that's been a huge.

Transformation in my life is not being so proud and being able to admit that I've, I failed and I've hurt others in my life and that I need their forgiveness and then to be very liberal about my forgiveness to those who have hurt me and that has brought about just a change interiorly for me, a receptivity and openness, just a greater capacity to love and it goes both ways.

I've needed to be [00:14:00] forgiven and I've needed to forgive others. So it's gone both ways and it's increased this capacity. So that's been the biggest transformation in my life. But I would also say just awareness of my wounds and the things in my life. Um, you know, um, Bob shoots will talk about type a trauma and type B trauma.

One is, you know, something terrible has been done to you and the other is something was missing. And I think for me, as I reflect on my own life and you know, I think People listening to this Joey certainly can identify with trauma in their life. You look back and when you, when you see the full picture of your life and the things that have happened to you or the things that haven't happened to you, it allows you to see a fuller narrative and a fuller picture.

And. For me, it allows me to have more mercy and compassion towards myself and mercy and compassion towards others. And so that's been a huge, that self awareness and just allowing the, the Lord has been able to move in those places because I've just had more room after that self reflection and that, that greater [00:15:00] awareness.

Joey: So good. And it sounds like it's increased your capacity to just love overall, like you're, you're more free to love, which we'll get to a little bit later, which I think is just so, so good and beautiful. I definitely in my life has seen that, you know, seeking God's forgiveness is hard. Seeking other people's forgiveness is hard, but the hardest by far is like forgiving yourself.

And there's something about that that I think we just want to hold on to. And I think on a lot of levels, I know And my own story, especially going back to the, you know, different mistakes I've made, you know, I think there's part of myself that kind of hates the other part of myself, where it's like, like, you idiot, like, why did you, you know, do that stuff?

Like, now I can see more clearly, of course, but in the moment I was in so much pain and just, you know, obviously acting in a way that's not, you know, Um, that's not good. And so I think, yeah, it's really important that we, you know, have that, take that compassionate, that, um, merciful approach to ourselves, not just to other people and not just like going to God asking for forgiveness.

So it sounds so, so helpful. I wanted to ask you though, when it comes to forgiveness, um, for some people can be kind of this elusive thing. Is there some sort of process or [00:16:00] thought or points that you kind of anchor on to when it comes to both giving forgiveness to people who've hurt you and also seeking forgiveness from people maybe that you've hurt?

Matt: I've been really moved just by Jesus and how he commands us to forgive. And in this journey of learning how to forgive more and more, I'm becoming more and more aware of just how this theme is constant in his message. Every time we pray the Our Father, for example, do we realize that we are asking him to forgive us?

I'm asking to be forgiven in the same way that I forgive others. That's literally what I'm praying. Give us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. So every time we pray the, our father, which is at every mass, multiple times, if we say the rosary multiple times, if we said the divine mercy chapel, like any, like the prayers of our, you know, Catholic life or for non Catholics, we say the, our father as well, you know, as Protestants.

So, you know, this is a prayer. given to us by Jesus. And, you know, we are [00:17:00] commanded to forgive. And we are asking in that prayer that we be forgiven the same way that we forgive others. I've been very moved by that and very challenged by that, right? To even look at my heart and say, do I want to forgive certain things and not other things, other things that I want to still hold on to, um, or other things that I'm holding on to and not allowing the Lord to really speak, uh, the truth of forgiveness over those things in my own life.

And so, um, yeah, I think just really praying through that, that line in the, our father has been really powerful for me. Um, in addition, there's another scripture that really convicts me of this. And Jesus talks about, you know, forgiveness and with the measure you use to forgive, you'll be forgiven. Right.

And I keep thinking about that measure and I don't, I don't know about you, but. I have been one to calculate the cost. Oftentimes, like to forgive someone means that I'm actually releasing them of the debt or of what's actually just what's even maybe [00:18:00] even owed to me. I'm like releasing that. I'm forgiving them.

Like that is, that's what mercy is, is to, to receive something you don't deserve. And right when we show mercy and forgiveness to someone, we're releasing them of that debt. And like the measure with which I Forgive is the same measure with which. I will be forgiven like, man, that get that convicts me to want to forgive more and more holy and more completely and not even hold on to the things that, you know, I think I could quickly quickly say, Oh yeah, I forgive you.

Or, you know, sometimes I'll just quickly say, Oh, I'm sorry. It's like, no, if I have wronged someone, I need to take ownership for that and truly ask for forgiveness. And when someone asks for forgiveness from me, I need to truly offer that in the same way that I hope that. Our Lord forgives me of my sins on my judgment day.

Joey: Beautiful. That's a really strong point that it's not enough to just say the words, like obviously the words are part of it. You know, meaning the words is, is more important though, and really like putting your heart behind it. And I know it's kind of, you know, [00:19:00] depending on how someone hurt you and how serious it was, it can be this ongoing thing.

It's not just like a one and done thing as well. So I think all those are like really important points that you hit on. And I, yeah, we, we had father John Burns on in an episode. We'll link to that. I can't remember the exact episode. Number, but, um, we'll link to it. So if you guys want to hear more about forgiveness and like his whole process of forgiveness, um, that episode is awesome.

And one of the things I learned from him and I'm hearing you say too, is there's this important component of forgiveness to be just like moved by the misery of the other or ourselves. Right. And so. There's this important component, especially when we're like challenged to forgive that we need to be moved by their misery and to see them in their humanity, not just in the way that they harmed us.

And I know for a lot of people listening right now, especially who've gone through their parents divorce or the family, you know, just, just really dysfunctional. They might harbor a lot of anger, a lot of even hate towards their parents. And like the idea of forgiving them is just like almost impossible.

What would you say to them in that situation? Um, if, if they do feel kind of convicted by this, but they feel a little bit stuck.

Matt: Yeah, it helps me. [00:20:00] I was talking with a friend recently, and he reminded me of the stages of forgiveness. And so when you've been hurt and wronged, right, you lose trust, right?

There's a relation, there's a broken part of your relationship. And forgiveness is not forgetting, right? And we were just talking about how, gosh, where are you at in your stage of forgiveness with the circumstance of this person? And, you know, he was sharing with me that forgiveness is stage one. Stage two is, Rebuilding, it's reconciliation, like to reconcile and stage three is to begin trusting again that I don't know whose model that is.

I can't claim that. And I don't think my friend can either. I think it's someone else's model. But that really resonated with me. There's a freedom. I could be more liberal with my forgiveness if I'm not saying let's pretend it's all better. Now we're reconciled and back at square one and pretending like nothing happened.

That's not what forgiveness is right. But forgiveness is is truly like a release of the, the burden of, of that sin of that pain that someone [00:21:00] caused you. And I'm, I'm forgiving you. I'm choosing to forgive you just as Jesus forgave on the cross. That doesn't mean that like when he forgave that, like his wounds were immediately transformed, he was still in pain and he was still bleeding on the cross.

Like that, that forgiveness didn't fix everything, but he still chose to forgive. And I think that's like to live in that is okay. You can still choose to forgive even if the pain is raw, and that doesn't mean that you've moved into reconciliation or fully trusting and beginning again with someone, but, um, Jesus forgave on the cross when his pain was real, and it was, it was present.

It wasn't in the past. And he still never gave

Joey: the beautiful and inspiring. And I love the stages idea, especially if there's maybe a person who it would be very bad idea to have some sort of reconciliation. Like there's obviously that component of it too, if they would be like unsafe or, you know, very toxic, unhealthy to level where you can't be in that situation.

So yeah, that, that's really, really helpful. I love it.

Matt: Joey, I might say this too. Just one more thought came to mind. [00:22:00] I think we're all called to forgive. Like in person and with our words. But if you can begin, if you're really struggling, there's a painful relationship or you've been really hurt in your life, you can start by desiring to forgive and beginning that in your own heart.

Like, Lord, I want to forgive this person. Lord, I want to get up, get to a place of forgiveness. And that forgiveness can begin just in the silence of your heart and that wrestling and asking the Lord to move. you know, if you're not ready to actually go to that person and, um, offer forgiveness. So I think there's a, there's a process.

And if that's where you're at, just pray for the desire to want to forgive and, and wrestle with the Lord in that.

Joey: So good. And the benefits are there. Like if you've never experienced it, once you really go through that process of forgiving someone who's hurt you, you literally won't realize like, like, wow, I did not realize I was carrying around this like Boulder on my back that's just been weighing me down on so many levels and when you forgive them It's like, you know, there's so much freedom there There can't be at least if it's genuine and you know, I [00:23:00] I've experienced that myself, which is yeah I hope everyone listening can can go through that.

I know it's not easy. But like Matt I hear you saying just take the small steps take the small steps

Matt: Yeah

Joey: And um, you know challenge yourself to to kind of go outside your comfort zone when the time is right But anything else you dad before you move on?

Matt: You mentioned the word freedom, and I think that's very true when we, when we forgive others, but also if we have harmed others, there's tremendous freedom in being forgiven.

And I'll share this, Joey, I have asked for forgiveness from people before that I still felt like there was a debt owed, if you will, like there was Unresolved things there. It was just for me to still feel the way that I did in a circumstance, but me admitting my part and asking forgiveness and expressing sorrow for my part in that circumstance.

And it was not conditional on the other person apologizing to me. Right? So often I want if I'm going to apologize and I'm owed an [00:24:00] apology as well. I want for that. the other person to do that. And I've been really praying to be free from whatever the other side is, whatever the outcome is, that I still am going to own my part.

I'm going to apologize. I'm going to ask for forgiveness. And I've been so much freer as a result, even if that person didn't apologize to me and own up to their part. That hurt me. And so I just wanna encourage you, like, there's, there's freedom, such a freedom in forgiveness and it, the, the context doesn't have to be like, oh yeah, we're totally on the same page about how this is gonna look.

Like. You can still offer that to someone else or ask for it of yourself even before that other person is ready to take their step forward. So

Joey: such an. Yeah, that's such an important point. No, please keep going. I just, I didn't mean to jump in there. I can't emphasize enough because from what we're hearing from a lot of the young people that we're walking with is, you know, they maybe like one or both of their parents are in that spot where they've like made some decisions or done some things that have really hurt their kids and they might be [00:25:00] oblivious to it.

Or just like lack such awareness that it's like, wow, like this hurt me so bad and mom or dad don't even realize it.

Matt: They have no clue.

Joey: Yeah, or if they do, they're just like, for one reason or another, they haven't done anything about it and, and that could be like such a heavy burden. So, I like this idea that it can be this one way thing, which I think ultimately, You know, if there's could be reconciliation, that's the goal, but at least starting with yourself because that's the only person you could control.

Matt: Yeah. And Joey, I think just going back to Jesus, right. He says on the cross, father, forgive them for they know not what they do. Right. Maybe they did like what a generous and unmerited request of the father. Like, they know that they're killing him, and they're torturing him, and he's bleeding and dying on the cross, right?

Suffocating, yeah. Yes, like, they can see that this man is suffering to a great degree, and he still says, Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. And I do think that, gosh, what a challenge it is to show [00:26:00] that kind of mercy to people. And what I'm not saying is that people don't need to take responsibility for the pain that they've caused others.

But, That may not always come before you express forgiveness. The order doesn't have to be that way. So anyways, I'm inspired by Jesus and, um, want to be more like him in the way he forgave even when he was in the pain on the cross.

Joey: Truly heroic. And on that note, I think it's so important we talk a lot about health and wholeness and all these terms that, you know, people are familiar with.

Um, but I don't think we slow down to really define our terms. And so I'd love to kind of go there now with you. And again, thank you so much for sharing so much. And your insights are always just so brilliant. Um, that's why I wanted to talk with you about this. So I'm curious, let's dive into this. Let's throw this around a bit.

Like, what's the first thing that comes in mind when you think of a healthy or whole person?

Matt: Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind, ironically, is what it's not, because I think for so long, [00:27:00] I've been striving for something that's not whole or healthy. And so, you know, I think about something that is whole is something that is not divided.

It's not separated. It's united. It's, it's one. It's as it was intended to be. And I think about, you know, for the human person, being whole is looking at everything, all the aspects that God has created you with, right? I have a body. He's given me a body. He's given me a mind. He's given me a soul. He's given me a heart, right?

And it's when those things are connected and in harmony with one another, that's what it is to be whole. And I think so much of life because of original sin, right? Adam and Eve before the first sin were whole, right? Their, their bodies, their minds, their hearts, their desires matched what they did. Like there was not a disintegration of these things.

And it wasn't until that sin and that lie from the enemy that they started to believe that disintegration started to happen. [00:28:00] They were no longer whole, they were broken. There was brokenness in their desires and their relationships and their bodies in the world, right? There was pain, there was suffering, there was work, right?

So I think wholeness is the unity and the harmony of those aspects with which God has created us. Body, mind, soul, like all of those things Being in harmony with one another.

Joey: It's so good. It's almost like the parts aren't at war with each other. They're all working together, moving in one direction. And that's what I hear you saying about, you know, going to the biblical story of Adam and Eve.

Like they, it's not like their desires were telling them to do one thing and their mind was telling them, no, that's not good. Do this other thing. It was like, no, their desires wanted the good thing. And their mind was like, yeah, do the good thing. Yeah. It'd be nice to experience. Yeah.

Matt: Well, it's like, Joe, we've talked about like working on virtues, like, and as men, we're called to work on virtues.

What if like, It wasn't work to be virtuous, right? I think that's Adam and Eve just their desires so fully [00:29:00] like integrated with what was good for them. They didn't have to think about, I need to do the virtuous thing right now. It just, that was in alignment, right? And, and like, gosh, what would that be like?

But I think that's what the journey of the lifeline journey towards wholeness is. It looks like it's, and for us, it takes like virtue building, it takes flexing muscles. It takes prayer and emptying ourselves to, to really make space for like that virtue to happen. But I think it's getting to that original place, right?

That's what heaven will be like where our bodies, our mind, everything is, is restored. Everything is made new and as it, as it should be.

Joey: That's so good. So yeah, the, I guess disintegration, like you said, would be kind of the division of the parts kind of warring against each other, wanting different things.

Um, maybe some parts of you wanting good things, other parts of you wanting bad things, like your intellect typically wanting the good and then there may be desires wanting the bad. Um, and then in integration would be the opposite of what we're saying, which is like everything's kind of in alignment. So just trying to make sure I understand everything on that front.

And I [00:30:00] think, yeah. Yeah. Anything else to add before we move on?

Matt: No, Joey, I appreciate this about you. I've been, I've really appreciated our, our growing friendship as well. Joey is a man that is very good at being concise and getting to the point and I am not. So I appreciate you driving the point home, uh, to really make a clear point.

I really, really love that about you.

Joey: Oh, thank you. No, I think we make a good team for sure. Um, I think there was something about like looking at what it's not, you know, to, to, in order to define like health and wholeness. Cause I think we look around us and we definitely see many examples of, of what it's not.

And I want to go into that in a moment, but another question I guess is like, can health and wholeness be obtained or is it more of an infinite goal that we're kind of always like working on?

Matt: I don't know the answer to that, but here's, here are my thoughts. I don't, I think, I don't think we will be whole, completely whole until we're one with God in heaven.

I don't think that that's possible. And maybe it is possible if you. If you [00:31:00] die a living Saint and you've totally like been cleansed of the disintegration in your life. Right. So maybe, maybe I would go back on that if there's like, okay, a living Saint, like was mother Teresa whole? I mean, I want to believe she was pretty darn close to it if not there, but I think what my response would be, Joey, I think it's more like the same question of holiness.

So, Joey, are you holy? Right? I hope that you would say yes. I would say yes. But are you done becoming holy? Yeah. Are you done with your, your path of holiness and your journey towards holiness? Absolutely not. Like, so for me, am I, am I holy? Gosh, I hope so. Am I as holy as I need to be? No. But so similarly, I think.

Am I whole? You know, I'm a lot more whole than I was a year ago or 10 years ago, but I'm not done becoming whole, if that makes sense. So, I think it's more of a journey. It's a, you know, a spectrum kind of sounds like a weird word to use, but in many ways, I think it is. I've, [00:32:00] I'm, I'm far more healthy and holy, um, and Whole, not holy as in, um, you know, close to God, but whole, W H O L E.

I'm more whole than I was a decade ago, and I'm really grateful for that. Um, so, I don't know. Does that make sense?

Joey: Yeah. No, I'm tracking with you. It's, it's bringing up a lot of, um, kind of thoughts and questions. One idea, I know we're talking about like wholeness, holiness, and health. I kind of thrown these terms around.

I almost think of like holiness as like, it's not like we're all mirrors. And the more clear the reflection of Jesus is, that's like the level of your holiness. I like to think of it that way. And then I guess health would be maybe a little bit, certainly tied in with all that, but maybe a little bit more removed in that, like the, maybe there's this like ideal of the human person and, you know, Christians, Catholics would say that's Jesus, right?

Uh, we would say that. Um, but that's kind of like what we're striving towards. Like how, how, how accurately do we reflect what it means to be human, like at the deepest level. And [00:33:00] so it brings up the question of like, well, you know, it's a big question. Like why are we here? Like, what's the whole point of all this?

Because if we just measure like health and wholeness on like a secular materialistic level, we would probably look at people's looks. You know, we'd look at their fitness. We'd look at their like physical health. We wouldn't really go below the surface and think of this whole like kind of spiritual realm as well.

Um, so I think our definition, like you, like you said, well, before it needs to be very holistic and he's include all the aspects of the human person. You mentioned the soul, the body, the heart, you know, the mind, um, which I love. So I think there's something to all of that. I know I'm kind of, um, going down different rabbit holes here, but I think that there's something to, to that.

And so to me, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. I think the whole purpose of life is to love. And so I think the, really the best measure of maybe health and wholeness is like your capacity to love, like the greater your capacity to love, um, the more free you are, the more healthy, the more whole you are.

If there's any inhibitions, if there's any barriers that are holding you back, that's just one way, in my opinion, to [00:34:00] measure, um, your, you know, health and wholeness. Health and wholeness. And I guess another way to measure freedom too. So any thoughts on any of that?

Matt: Gosh, I love both of those words. You just named like two of my favorite words, freedom and love.

Um, and then you put those together, freedom to love. Um, so I can't help but think of john paul the second who talks about freedom, right? Freedom is not I can do whatever I want. It's the freedom to do what I ought, right? Um, right. Freedom to love that really reflects the freedom to love because we were made to love.

So I can't help it. Reference JP too, because I think he got this so well. I think he lived integration so well, right? You look at body, mind, soul. Like this man was living it all, right? He's skiing and glorifying God with his body, but he's also going deep with the Lord intellectually and writing deep truths of our faith.

And he had this huge heart, this great capacity to love, um, right? Anyone. I just remember being a kid in his presence. I [00:35:00] felt loved by him. Right. I just felt loved by the man. He had such a capacity to love. And so I think you're really onto something that, you know, the measure is your capacity to love your freedom to give of yourself and love.

But something you mentioned earlier just is a similar temptation that I have to measure these things more on the externals. I think we're more comfortable with. with externals, right? Um, what's a healthy person look like? Well, they'd be in good shape and they would, um, be well put together and all of those things.

But I think too often today and in society we focus on those exteriors far too much than we do on the interior health, right? The, the health of the wholeness of the heart and the mind, the soul and right. Think about just social media. How often, Joey, do we just post the good things that exteriorly, right?

We appear this way. And, you know, I, I've some, some of the most fit people that I've ever known are some of the most broken when you actually get [00:36:00] to know them. But, but there's almost this like, gosh, I feel a sense of control or I feel like a sense of accomplishment or I'm getting somewhere. If I've mastered this one part of, you know, my life, but it's just that one part, right?

It's the, the physical body. Uh, and you know, that's only one part of the whole person, right? So I think it can be really, um, yeah, it's, it's disintegrated if we only focus on that. Um, and I think Jesus even talks about this with the Pharisees and the Sadducees and he talks about, you know, the cup. Right.

And the, the cleansing, you know, if we only cleanse the exterior, what people see, um, he's far more interested on the interior. And so I think that's actually a really tough thing. What I'm not saying is like, let's dismiss the body because I think the body really does matter. Um, but I think it's easier for us to only focus on that and not focus on the interior things.

And Jesus really warns against that. It's really good. Yeah. And I think to integration. I thought a lot about [00:37:00] this recently. They're kind of, these are going to be like unfiltered thoughts and words, but just how integration is rooted in the word integrity, right? Even in preparation for this podcast, Joey, I was like, how, how would you simply define integrity?

Because I could use a lot of words. What, what is integrity? So it's the state of being whole and undivided is one definition that I saw. So the state of being whole and undivided, and what is it to have an undivided heart and mind and will and desires, right? Like when those things are aligned, like, gosh, that's, that's integrity versus, you know, even Paul talks about this and I find so much support from Paul.

Like he was a Saint, you know, transformed his life, but still after following the Lord. struggled with sins of the flesh and struggled. Like, why do I do the things I don't want to do? Why is my, you know, my greatest desires not aligning with my like earthly and like worldly and carnal desires. Right. It's because, [00:38:00] um, he's not yet whole.

Right. And I think that's if St. Paul could struggle with that. And he was much closer to Jesus than I was like, I find a lot of consolation and saying, okay, you know, why do I do the things I don't want to do? And why do I not do the things that I want to do? Well, because I'm not whole yet. I'm not fully integrated.

And that's what I need more healing in my life to get there. So, um, but I think going back to what you said, Joey, like that freedom to love. I really do think if there's a measurement, if there's a KPI to all of this, that's it. Like, am I free to give up myself? And I also think we have to be careful though.

Some people can get busy being. Martha's and right doing I'm giving of myself almost to cover up the things that, um, I don't like or that the areas that do need healing. So it truly is a freedom to love and fully give of yourself, not just to be doing things to contribute to make other people's lives better to show love and care for others.

But it's to love is like freedom to love, like holy, [00:39:00] like entirely, not just out of, uh, yeah. Gosh, um, I really ought to be doing something out of love for someone else. Right. I think that's an important distinction. Like, um, Martha and Mary, that's a tension in me sometimes is the doer or the beer. And I think, you know, Mary was able to just be at the foot of Jesus at the feet of Jesus.

And that was loving just as much as Martha's doing. And so both are really important.

Joey: Yeah, no, I felt either. Um, so many good things. One point you made about kind of our culture is really interesting to look around and see like what we value like what we almost Like you might be able to say like worship and it really is things like wealth, you know Fitness quote unquote success in the form of like, you know popularity or business or something like that We worship celebrities on some level too and we worship youth and in our culture in particular And so it's, it's really interesting to see like that's kind of what we would maybe define as a secular culture as like health and [00:40:00] wholeness or like the goal, but, uh, but it's very different than what we're saying.

Not to say those things aren't a component of it. Sure. But it's not like to the level that, you know, I think our culture overemphasizes and probably overemphasizes because there's like not much depth, um, below it. Like, there's not that, like you said, the interior part, like the, the spiritual component and the deep, like focus on love and, and doing good and all that.

So I think that that's really important to highlight that we're very much so diverting from that in our definition. And the other thing I thought of too, is I think love is like the pinnacle of all the virtues, right? And so it's the greatest of all the virtues. Um, so I guess another way we could say what we're saying is like the greatest measure of health is virtue.

And so that's, I think, a really important thing to maybe get into a little bit. And some of the time we have left, like to someone who's maybe hearing that word and thinking like, yeah, I kind of know what that is, but couldn't really define it. Um, yeah, well, let's talk about that. Like, what is a definition of virtue?

And yeah, let's dive in there.

Matt: Gosh, [00:41:00] these definitions. I'm not good at this Joey. This, this requires like a concise answer. Yeah. And

Joey: in Matt's way, like how would you define like virtue? If someone came up to him, like what's virtue?

Matt: Yeah. I think some, I've been doing a lot of work with priests and seminarians around just integration.

And, you know, there's a lot of spiritual realities for priests and seminarians, specifically a priest, right? You're a spiritual father, but you're also. Right? You're not just called to give sacramentally to people. You're called to give of your whole self, right? It's very, it's not that different, actually, from you and I and our fatherhood, right?

We pour ourselves out and we give of ourselves and right? We get woken up in the middle of the night. And this morning my son, you know, was crying and my wife was like, he's awake. I was like, Oh, he sure is, isn't he? Um, and Right. The, the part of me that desires to love and to give of myself after the second [00:42:00] time got up and got him so that my wife could sleep in.

But I guess, um, you know, I guess virtue. It's so easy for me to describe what virtue isn't. It's harder for me to describe what virtue is like virtue. I think is like this. It gives you this like self possession so that you can give of yourself, right? And, um, virtue, there's so many virtues. Jesus was the most virtuous man.

So it really points back to how did Jesus live and how did these virtues connect and integrate? Because, you know, I could, I could say, well, the virtue of prudence is this, but sometimes a moment calls for the virtue of courage, right? And it's actually, these things are not an opposition, they're integrated, right?

So similarly, like, I think we're talking a lot about integration, how these things are connected. I could out of, you know, prudence say, well, gosh, I didn't get much sleep last night. So my wife should get up with the baby so that I can be well rested and do well at work and, uh, give my full self there. But what about [00:43:00] charity?

Right? What about love? The greatest of these is love. And so, so I need to get up and out of, out of love, be motivated to show my wife that. So I guess what I'm trying to say, Joey, is that Lack of virtue, I think, is a person who is just very of the world, you're, you're formed by the world, you value the things of the world, and virtue allows me to not be that worldly person, it allows me to look at where I'm going and to choose the good over my own desires, to choose something greater than my own desires, so a lack of virtue is I just I do whatever I want.

And I'm actually not happy at the end of that, right? If it's choosing sin or pleasure or eating or drinking or whatever it is, that lack of virtue doesn't actually make me happy and whole. It's virtue that makes me happy and whole. It's the orienting of myself towards higher goods towards the greatest goods.[00:44:00]

Um, and that's what I think virtue is all about.

Joey: I love that. And I, it makes so much sense. And that, you know, what I hear you describing as vice is what, you know, Catholic Christian culture would call sin. And in many ways, and yeah, I agree. Like promises a lot, you know, it seems like being selfish would be like a better way to live.

In some ways it's like only worrying about yourself and having whatever you want. It's like, that sounds kind of great. And then you live it and you do it. And it's like, wow, this is miserable and very empty. And like, this is not, You know, it doesn't deliver what it promises. I think that's like an earmark of vice.

It's like, it's always, it tricks you, it tricks you. Whereas virtue on the other hand, often it's just hard. And especially at the beginning, it's just difficult. And then once you attain a virtue or integrated into your character, um, there's just like this middle of mastery and freedom. And you actually experience the satisfaction, the joy, and the peace that you long for.

Not to add like this level of utopia or euphoria, but, but at a level that's like, wow, okay, this is like what I was made for, this [00:45:00] is the life that I want to live. And so one of the things I was thinking back to is like the, the way the Greeks thought about virtue. I'm going to butcher this, but, um, was it Arete where they said it's like virtue is essentially like human excellence, where it's like, it's like take a human and everything a human should be.

And if they're full, like if they have virtue, then they're like, Thriving in human excellence, not just excellent at some function, like they're great at golf or they're great at math or something like that, or great at business, it's like, no, they actually are like a great, they're great at being human.

And there's something about that that's just so good. And so I remember too, the Greeks defined virtue as the right, the habitual disposition to do the good, if I'm remembering that right, habitual disposition to do the good. And so in that, there's kind of like two components that I've always thought of.

One is. There's obviously the habit part. It's like good habits, you know, um, those are virtues. Um, and then that kind of inclination, that disposition, that almost like leaning towards like what is good is another component of it. So it's like it has to do with your heart, not just your actions too. And so I think those [00:46:00] things, um, for me have always been helpful in addition to everything you said, which I think was so well said.

And, you know, ultimately they, yeah, just bring about this, like, again, mastery in life that lead to lead to freedom. And on that note, and then I love to hear what you have to say. I remember you and I talking a bit about that whole, if love is the point of life, if the greatest of the virtues is love, and that's like what we're trying to orient our life around that there's so much like joy and freedom and happiness to be found in giving yourself away and, you know, in a healthy way, then.

We, you know, we really need to work up to that point, but what precedes that point, you know, that self gift is really self possession. Like we need to have that mastery over ourselves as we've talked about. So that's like one, you know, level below it. And then another level below that is we need self awareness, right?

We need to kind of learn about ourselves and be able to kind of know how we operate in different situations with different people, like when we're, our wounds and triggers and different things like that, or maybe just blind spots and deficiencies and all that. And then one level below that would be just self [00:47:00] knowledge.

So I'll kind of explain that again. So self knowledge is the starting point. And that's what you talked about. Um, that's, I heard you saying earlier when you talked about going to therapy, just like learn more about yourself, almost as if you were getting to know another person, it's like, Oh, I'm learning parts of myself, parts about myself that I didn't really know before.

I didn't fully understand. I'm getting insight into maybe blind spots, things like that. So that's self knowledge. Then leads to self awareness. Now I can take that knowledge, I can go out into the world, I can be in a relationship with other people, and I know like, oh, in this situation I might tend towards anger.

Or I might tend towards, you know, self pity or pride or arrogance, whatever. Any of the vices. And so I know I can course correct. I can act in a way that's maybe different than my inclination, because, like you said, we live in this broken world and we want to do things that maybe aren't good for us. And so then that self awareness leads us to, like, Once we get good at that, we have the self possession and then from self possession, we are able to make a gift of ourself, like we're, we're free.

And so, um, not to kind of circle around that too much, but I think that's, it's been so helpful for me and something obviously I'm still working on, but I think that model is, is really a freeing and helpful. And I think that, [00:48:00] I think we're getting at the heart of like what it means to be healthy and whole.

Matt: Yeah. Joe, I think it's so important to just understand why we do the things that we do and even to be curious about why. You know, I think that's, that's also been a really helpful piece for me is any of my weaknesses I associated with poor character or lack of virtue. And some of that's probably true, but some of it is also that I've been given a certain personality and I grew up in a certain home and I have my own experiences of life, good and bad, uh, pain that I've experienced and how I've responded to that as, you know, even as early as a child.

And I think that. If we want to make a self gift of ourselves, which I know that everyone desires that ultimately we all desire that it's impossible to do that unless we've worked backwards to understand what is actually going on inside of us. Right. And that's, it's so important that we go in that order.

It's, it's not even, it's not a neat order every time for me, at least it's, you [00:49:00] know, gosh, I want to be more generous. I want to love better. I want to give myself more. And it's like, well, I just can't right now. Okay. Why? Like what's going on? And if I work backwards, it's like, yeah, I'm still, I'm still selfish.

There's a, uh, there's a, you know, part of, there's a childhood Matt that is still wanting to be whole and, and is still broken. And, you know, unless the Lord can just totally supply the grace, which he can, he can, even if we haven't gone through this whole process of becoming whole and, and, and healing, he can provide grace so that we can skip those other steps and give a gift of ourselves.

So I do think that's the beauty of this. We need to do the work. We need to grow in our self awareness and self mastery so that we can give a gift of ourselves. But sometimes we do just need to pray for the grace and the virtue, the supernatural virtue to do heroic things, even when our human limitations get in the way.

I think that grace could provide, it can cover a lot of our weaknesses.

Joey: No, I love that. That's great advice. [00:50:00] And I was thinking too, when you were speaking how, you know what you're saying that we, at least in my life, and I've seen this in a lot of my friends lives, the people that I lead, we, when we're the most broken, I think that's when we're most susceptible to or most tempted to or most vulnerable to vice.

Right? Because we're seeking, usually we're in pain when we're broken, when we don't feel whole, when we're in an unhealthy spot. And then we go towards vice because it promises something that it doesn't deliver. It's a drug in a sense that it helps us to numb that pain. And then that, you know, in ways injures us more, it does more harm, it wounds us more.

And then we kind of go back to, you know, that, Oh, I'm really broken. And then there's this, this vicious cycle between brokenness and vice, brokenness and vice, brokenness and vice. I see it. all the time. And so I think in order to, you know, stop the vice, some people just kind of say, well, you just need to like be strong and be virtuous and just like kind of put them on a good front and just kind of like power through it.

And, and there's maybe some level of [00:51:00] merit to that. Like we do need to have strength and we can't, you know, just expect that if we think long and hard enough about our past, that everything's going to be perfect. And we're going to be able to, you know, Finally love people and be virtuous. There's some to taking action.

I'm not diminishing that But what I've seen so often is people just neglect the whole like brokenness and untreated trauma component of it I know you see this a lot in your work, too And so yeah I love any thoughts or comments on this whole like vicious cycle between brokenness and sin brokenness and vice that you're observing in your own life and then the

Matt: Yeah.

I mean, Joey, it's so prevalent in my own life and you know, the, the desire for virtue and then the lack of virtue and the lack of, you know what I mean? It's like, uh, Paul, I totally relate to you St. Paul. Um, but I, I think for so many years of my life, I relied on my own strength. And I relied on self sufficiency, uh, because of my woundedness, because of pain I've experienced in my life, [00:52:00] that it was a lot easier for me to say, well, gosh, to avoid that pain altogether, I'm going to be independent, I'm going to be self sufficient, I'm not going to rely on other people, I'm not going to be vulnerable, I'm not going to invent my weaknesses, right?

That caused me more pain. At least I thought it did. And it's been so freeing to understand it. My own woundedness. And, and, you know, another conversation, Joey could be about just, you know, the wounds that Bob shoots will talk about. And, you know, there's 7, 7 wounds that are very prevalent. And there's, there's more wounds than that.

But, you know, 7 common wounds and just naming those and understanding that those exist. And then, you know, And then knowing that when we've experienced pain in our lives, wounds are, I would say are synonymous with pain in many ways, right? Like if I've experienced a pain in my life, I'm wounded by that.

And if that wound doesn't get healed quickly, um, I start to believe things. about that pain, right? If I continue to feel that pain, you know, the devil totally sees our vulnerability [00:53:00] and start speaking lies to us. And we start believing, um, things that are not true about ourselves, about the world, about others, about the person that causes that pain about, you know, whatever.

And then over time we, we build vows, false vows that, you know, I will never be vulnerable again. I will never allow myself to be hurt in this way. I will never, whatever, fill in the gap with whatever you need to, to, to do. vows so that you're not hurt again. And for me, Joey, quite honestly, I've had so much more freedom in my journey and being able to name those wounds and accept that I'm wounded and that I'm in pain or have been in pain in my life, which sounds weak and vulnerable to say, uh, but it's true.

Um, even if the pain is still present and, and, and naming that wound, it, it has allowed me so much more quickly to build virtue and to invite like the Lord's healing into it versus. I need to heal myself. I need to self preserve. I need to be [00:54:00] independent. I don't want to need others. I don't even want to need God, you know, in this area of my life.

And so in the recognition of and naming certain wounds has just brought in so much more like grace and like growth and virtue has just been Much faster than me building virtue on my own love that

Joey: speaking of growth and virtue I know you work with a lot of business owners leaders priests bishops Even people in ministry wherever to do you coach them you have extensive experience as a CEO and you offer that sort of executive coaching And and more so if you would tell us about the work that you do what you offer and how people can find you online

Matt: Yeah, so Joey I Um, I've been formed a lot by Pat Lynchoni and, uh, his leadership principles and organizational health principles.

And I offer that to for profit leaders, um, as well as nonprofit leaders and particularly to priests and bishops and seminarians. So, I have one, one business that does work in pouring into leaders, help [00:55:00] building up their confidence in who they are as a leader, a lot of that self awareness, self mastery.

Like it's a lot of the things we've been talking about today and then how that affects an organization when you lead a team and when you lead an organization in a culture. So that's, that's one, one of the projects I'm working on. And then the second is, is called chrism and it's a project specifically for.

for priests, bishops, and seminarians to provide an integrated approach to ongoing formation. And what I've learned, Joey, is that leadership is just one piece of the puzzle. And for a lot of my life, you know, the last, you know, six or eight years, I was like, yeah, leadership is the key. Leadership is the key.

And it's definitely a gap in the formation for priests. I definitely still see it as a gap, but. What I found is that so many priests, if they're not growing in leadership and the principle is true and, and even they're convicted of that principle, but they're not actually able to embrace it and own it and implement it, it's because there's something else going on under the surface.

And so a lot of the work that I'm doing now is very integrated. It's, it's recognizing our woundedness or our [00:56:00] spiritual needs and how that affects us humanly and how that affects us as leaders. And so, um, it's been really beautiful to just look at the whole man. And if God is calling you to the priesthood, if you're already an ordained priest, or if you're a seminarian or even a bishop, you know, God, God wants to make, make them whole or shepherds whole.

And so a lot of the things that we've been talking about today, that's really the starting point for a lot of the work that we build on and can really help a man become the leader he's called to be. When we start looking at other aspects that, you know, That tend to be below the surface sometimes.

Joey: So good.

Love that. And, um, how can people find it online? Do you have two separate websites for both businesses?

Matt: Yeah, I'd probably highlight the, the priest one, uh, chrismpriest. com. Um, that's a more robust site that really explains those different offerings, but you can email me at Matt at chrismpriest. com if you want to know more.

And I'd be happy to share about the work I do with for profit leaders and business leaders as well.

Joey: Hey, super thankful to [00:57:00] know you and love the time we've had together as friends. And I look forward to growing even more together and to getting to know you better. Thank you so much for being here and for, yeah, just sharing all your brilliance and wisdom.

Um, in closing out, I want to give you the last word. I'm just curious, like what final advice or encouragement you offered everyone listening? Um, especially maybe people who. Maybe thinking like, why is this worth it? You know, is it worth it to struggle and to go all this? Like, why don't I just kind of live that selfish life that we talked about?

Matt: Yeah, Joey, I guess all I can speak to is my own experience and I'm on the journey towards wholeness. I'm not done. Um, but I, I can taste it. I can feel it. And I feel more free than I did six months ago, a year ago. It's taken a lot of work. It's taken a lot of self awareness, painful self awareness, and inviting other people in to help me grow in those areas, which is painful.

It's really painful to recognize your own woundedness and brokenness, but [00:58:00] it's also so much more free than trying to hide it. And I guess I would just encourage anyone that's struggling. It's like, if you're struggling to believe this, give it a try. And I think you'll find that there's so much more on the other side than just white knuckling it and trying to, trying to do it all on your own and pretend that it's okay on the outside.

And God made us to need each other. He made us to need each other. We literally need each other. I think he describes the body of Christ, right? Joey, you can't be the head and the heart and the foot and the arm and the ear and the nose and the eye. You can't be at all. Right. And for a lot of my life, that's how I tried to be.

Um, okay. I'm not an, I'm not an, I, but if I work hard enough, I can become an eye. It's like, no, maybe I'm just supposed to be, you know, a mouth or an ear. And that's what, and God need made me to need those other parts. And so I think, um, just maybe to, to close it, I think that's kind of what wholeness is. It actually looks like this oneness in Christ.

And [00:59:00] we get to experience that, um, through his body, the church, right? When the body of Christ is thriving and doing well, I've had moments in my life and seasons in my life that gosh, things are so edifying and I'm so full by being in the presence of other people and they're speaking into my life and I'm, I'm coming to know myself and coming to the Lord more fully.

And I guess I would just encourage anyone that's wondering if it's worth it or wondering if this is possible, just take the first step, take the first step by maybe inviting someone into. your woundedness, your brokenness or your fears, you know, maybe just take the first step in saying, you know what, maybe I'm not supposed to do this on my own.

And You know, start shedding some of that self reliance and allow yourself to be broken, allowing yourself to be received and allowing yourself to be loved. So that would be my encouragement. We're all on the journey. So brothers and sisters, I'm with you in it. And uh, I need these reminders myself. So Joey, hold me accountable to that because I need that in my own life.

Joey: [01:00:00] If you're a leader in a business, nonprofit, or even the church, and you're tired of leading alone, or maybe you feel like your overall health as a person is just lacking, I definitely recommend at least reaching out to Matt to see how he can help you, especially for any priests listening right now. Or maybe, you know, a priest who could use this.

Matt's told me about the great work that he's doing with priests, seminarians, even bishops. And it's incredible. It could honestly be the thing that you need to level up your leadership. And more importantly, just to become a healthier and more whole person leader. Again, go check out chrismpriest. com or reach out to Matt with the email that we'll put in the show notes for you guys.

If you come from a divorced or broken family, maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, so much more. And all of our content, all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured.

and build virtue so you can break the cycle and build a better [01:01:00] life. And so if you want to view the resources that we offer for yourself, or maybe someone that you know, just go to restored ministry. com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents, divorce or broken family, share this podcast with them.

Feel free to even do it now. Honestly, I promise you that they will be so grateful even if they don't tell you right away. And in closing, always remember you're not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#127: How Functional Neurology Helps You Heal | Dr. Paul Link

A doctor of functional neurology joins us to explain a new, cutting edge healing science that’s used to heal dysfunction in our bodies and minds, and help us live and perform at our best. It’s already being used by professional athletes and even Navy SEALs. 

We dive into what it is and how it can help you, plus:

• Why people from divorced families struggle more in relationships from a scientific standpoint

• Why one-size-fits-all doesn’t work with healing - it must be personal and custom

• 3 amazing stories of people who’ve benefited from functional neurology, including a

  boy who was confined to a wheelchair that was able to walk

Email Dr. Paul Link 

View Restored’s Resources

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American Chiropractic Neurology Board

American College Functional Neurology

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey:[00:00:00] I'm joined today by a doctor of functional neurology. It's a new and cutting edge healing science that's used to heal dysfunction in our bodies and in our minds and really just help us to live and perform at our best. And it's already being used by professional athletes in hockey, football, and basketball, and even by Navy SEALs.

And so in this episode, we dive into what it is and how it can help you. Plus we touch on why people from divorced families struggle more in relationships from a bit of a scientific. Point of view. We also discuss why a one size fits all approach to healing just doesn't work. It really needs to be personalized and customize each person.

And my guest also shares three amazing stories of people who've benefited a ton from functional neurology, including a boy who is actually confined to a wheelchair that was then able to walk. Thanks to the therapy, really good stuff. Stay with us. Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family, so you can break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is Episode [00:01:00] 127.

We're so thrilled that so many of you found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard awesome stories, awesome feedback. One listener said this. I love your podcast. I listened to one of the episodes today and found it very engaging and professional. I sent a link to the podcast to people I know who need it.

Thanks again for the amazing work you are doing. Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Blackstone films and a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of millennials said video is their top content choice. And that's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that?

Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know, you need to create video content, but you don't really know where to start. And it can leave you feeling kind of overwhelmed to the point where you just Give up on video and you just go back to what you know what with what's comfortable, even though it might not be best for your business or your ministry.

But that's where Blackstone [00:02:00] Films can help you. They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel they can create trailers, promo videos and commercials, uh, social media. Videos, documentaries, uh, fundraising videos, and even courses. We actually produced two video courses with them.

We had an awesome experience. And so whatever it is that you need, Blackstone is obsessed about not just helping you create the video content itself, but create a clear win for you and for your business or your ministry, such as fundraising for your ministry. Selling a course, getting leads for your business, getting students to sign up for your school, promoting your event, and so much more.

And Blackstone has literally reached millions of people around the globe with their videos and they can help you too. And so if you want to view past projects and the services that they offer, or maybe just contact them, go to blackstonefilms. co not. com again, blackstonefilms. com. or just click the link in the show notes.

My guest today is Dr. Paul Link. He's a functional [00:03:00] neurologist and director of clinical education at NeuroSync, as well as a staff clinician at St. Joseph's Chiropractic in Steubenville, Ohio, and CERO, S E R O in Canada. He has published over 100 papers and case studies in neurology, ranging from concussion, ADHD, mood disorders, and various genetic conditions.

Uh, he applies an approach of without drugs and surgery to neurology and wellness by using eye movements and other neurologic pathways to assist in brain health and healing. Really fascinating conversation. Here's my conversation with Dr. Paul.

Joey: Dr. Paul, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. I'm really excited for this conversation.

Dr. Paul:when, when you reached out, uh, you know, realizing, uh, doing a lot of work on your background and looking into, I realized this is not only incredible, but it's an incredible opportunity for me to not just spread the word of functional neurology, but, uh, get a chance to learn from, uh, Another patient demographic and population.

I've been working a lot with so I think it's going to be a great from both [00:04:00] ends

Joey: I appreciate that. And now I just heard a little bit about functional neurology. I know I mentioned to you that. A couple of siblings of mine have been through some functional neurology treatment for some injuries, but also just kind of general health. And, I am really intrigued by what they've told me so far, but I really don't know a lot about it.

So I'm going to be learning alongside our audience to this conversation, which I'm excited about. So starting out, you know, we have this audience of people who come from broken families, whether it's just a lot of dysfunction at home or their parents, you know, maybe are divorced. And so I'm curious, like, why should they care about what we're about to talk about

Dr. Paul: When it comes

to when it comes to functional neurology I think one of the best ways to look at it is not just that it applies solely to those who are sick or going through avenues of health abnormalities or anything because you know One of the things that makes functional neurology unique and what it is in general is if you can imagine living in a in the gray zone.

You know, a lot of the most medical community when everything is, it's black or it's white, you know, you pass this test or you didn't and nothing more than that. I mean, there's plenty of [00:05:00] times you go for health screenings. You're doing lab work and everything is showing up. It's either good or it's out of range and nothing in between, you know If you can imagine functional neurology And this sort of triage we've been able to create with our colleagues and and everything in our in our clinics is that we're taking that gray area and Making that applicable to the masses So you don't necessarily have to have had a recent concussion or a patient with autism. I mean, the, the subset of population you could reach is, is honestly infinite. I mean, we've seen people, and I've been fortunate to see people over the years from Olympic athletes. Uh, you named the professional champion. you know, he had this celebrity world preparing for movie roles all the way down to even just, uh, you know, fortune 500 CEOs or average Joe in business who just realizes that There's little finite things that's making their day to day off. And that could cost the company millions of dollars, or that could cost them their contract year and their [00:06:00] final year of play all the way down to this could be a major, driving point from them to go from maybe in a wheelchair to having their own control of their activities, daily living. So there's, there's no, avenue that can't reach to, and it's really just taking those little fine tunings.

And once you understand the neurology and how to apply it. whatever patients in front of you could start clean slate and just kind of direct care as you need be, um, and pulling from a lot of other professions. And that's kind of what makes it unique is that it really is that combination between T. O.

T. Athletic training, classic neurology. It's taking all these avenues and just You know, like a Venn diagram placing the overlap and just pulling the tools that you need.

Joey: So good. I've been thinking more lately about this whole idea of kind of like psychological drag or just drag in life. Meaning, you know, you imagine if you're trying to run fast. You can run fast. you know, in a lot of scenarios, except if you have like an injury or maybe you're running and you have a [00:07:00] parachute on your back and you're trying to run really fast, but you're not really getting anywhere to, to me, it almost seems like in life when we, when there's all this like untreated trauma on the emotional end, or maybe some physiological, you know, problems that we're just overlooking or ignoring.

Um, it creates that drag in our life. So we want to run fast. We want to get up the mountain. We want to, you know, do all these things. And yet we have all these problems that are holding us back. And so I think it's, uh, I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I think healing can't just be one sided too.

It needs to be multidimensional. And that's what I hear that you guys do in your profession, which is amazing. So I know, I'm sure you have so much to say to that. I wanted to, and we'll dive deeper into all of this, but I wanted to just kind of start with the definition, like what is functional neurology and why did you in particular get into it?

Dr. Paul: And so functional neurology Is that application between taking the classic neurology and it's really applying that without drugs and surgery So you're applying neurology by looking at the five to six senses you have, you know Not the sixth sense [00:08:00] like the like one of the very good movies with hailey joel But you're looking at the sixth sense we'll call it the vestibular system, right?

So you're just taking You Your visual system, your hearing, your sensation to touch, smell, right? You're, you're taking these systems and you're understanding how they really enter the brain what the outputs are of them from there. So you're looking at the bedside and you're looking at, you know, one of the things that we utilize the most of is eye movement. Because if you're talking about, the eyes are the window to the soul, you know, the window to the brain. So you're going to get majority of your information that's going to keep you alive. Okay. off your visual information. from there you can utilize, and we're not looking at you, what you'd have from an optometrist or an ophthalmologist, but rather we're looking at those fine motor movements.

What are the fine tunings that make this eye movement in particular intricate. And then every little defect or deficiency in there. Tells us that an area of the brain is not working so well. So you're just taking the [00:09:00] senses and you're taking those classical bedside examinations from, okay, touch my finger, touch your nose. And you're not just saying, okay, yes, they check those boxes, but we're looking at a little bit more fine tune to say, well, did they touch it with the fingertip? Was there a little bit of a tremor? Was it smooth? Did they miss? Was one area a little bit faster or slower? Because every one of those little deficiencies or inadequacies is going to tell you a lot about what's going on in the brain. And then you're just taking those areas and understanding where in the brain it's working well and which areas aren't, now how does that apply to that individual's needs? Are they the hockey player that's trying to get ready for the game? Or are they, you know, Joe the accountant who's having difficulty because all of a sudden he's realizing that he's carrying numbers over in the wrong way? And you can find any little flaw in these areas of the pathways and apply to it as much as, you know, they're, they're so far off that they're trying to get back to work with their life, or they're already that super high functional athlete is trying to do it in [00:10:00] performance enhancement and actually kind of we talked about before, which is, which is funny because it's similar enough, is, you know, I've always described it as like, imagine you're you know, you're gonna run a 40 yard dash and you just be running, you know, your time is whatever, five seconds. Now take the same thing and take those, you know, goggles from the D. A. R. E. program and put them on. You know, you're going every which way, you're off in traffic, you're falling, stumbling. It's the same area. If your brain, because the three main jobs is to take the world in, process it, and respond to it. If there's deficiencies in any one of those, then anything you do It's just a consequence of an area of the brain not working so well. Some of those could be heart arrhythmias, they could be increased or decreased hormone production, issues, any and everything, reading problems. I mean, there is no deficiency. That you can't look at, at least by analyzing the brain and getting a pretty darn good jumpstart to what's going on.

Joey: Fascinating. Uh, I'm so excited to learn more and to get into kind of the nitty gritty practicals of the [00:11:00] day to day and how you'd treat someone. We'll, we'll get to that. Um, but I am curious, you know, when, yeah, I, I'm, I'm excited to, um, to get into all that, but I, I wanted to ask about the, um, difference between maybe traditional neurology, which I think a lot of people will think of when they hear, you know, the word neurology. So how does maybe your training and your experience differ from a traditional neurologist?

Dr. Paul: Yeah, so, and I know one thing, Jack, was where did my background come from? So, if you look at traditional neurology, majority of traditional neurology, and it's certainly not knocked on the system, but majority of traditional neurology is understanding and looking at things through certain imaging, it could be CT, MRI, and trying to find those certain flaws.

But you have to realize in majority of traditional neurology, their job is to make sure that you are going to be alive. As long as you are without traumas and everything is going to be fine from that application, that is pretty darn efficient and sufficient for that time. Functional neurology is really dealing in the finite and getting you back to [00:12:00] your highest health state. And my background from there came similar enough, but honestly by somewhat of a mistake, um, I was in school. I went to college, interestingly, to bowl and golf, but I went there. So my background is, uh, biology and analytical chemistry. Um, and then from there, I was fortunate enough to work on some of the early beginnings of the human genome project and some, some mice studies with different strains with. Um, autism and some of the original BTBR strains and, you know, this one has, uh, some, some corpus callosum difficulties um, and lesions. So I was fortunate to come out of that world, um, and in the beginnings of the human genome project, everyone felt that if we could get an understanding of certain allele structures, and we can get an idea of the code. And we could program out and figure out what areas of this is making a particular protein abnormality that's causing someone to have Parkinson's or if we find the [00:13:00] autism gene, you know, we're going to really be able to turn the world and very early on. They realized that it doesn't work so easily that way.

And it's, it's gonna be much more difficult to get that. And we also realized on, I was fortunate to have some very good guidance in the beginning. And one of the professors had said if you right now you have no financial obligations, you have no reason to be here. You're a junior in college. I think some of the answers are going to be in neurology. There's a course coming up. It was a neuro function. Uh, a uh, neurophysiology of pain. If you like that course, I think maybe neurology would be for you and head the route of med school. So. did it took that course. My background was not whatsoever in, uh, neurology or anatomy. Uh, a nurse, dad's a mortician.

So I was around health from every avenues. And that's kind of where I did majority of my schoolwork and studying was just sitting in a doctor's office. And so I saw it from the big picture, but I'd never been around neurologist or town didn't have one. So to me, that was an un, uh, sort of an unrouted area.

So. All [00:14:00] I did was just take that course and realize this makes a whole lot of sense to me. Uh, applied and was getting ready to go for, uh, you know, an MD PhD. And about a month before school was working at a golf course where I did for about 10 years, mowing fairways and, you know, everything. And, it took a little break in like the early, early days of YouTube back.

And it was just like, you know, cats playing on the piano. And I went on there and found a video that we had watched, um, in school, uh, About this, uh, about this little girl, she was on Oprah, and she had, uh, Aledinia. just thought, well, let me rewatch was really interesting. Let me see if I can just, you know, spend my time reading a little bit here while I'm waiting. I came across a video of Dr. Kerrig when he was doing his, uh, Connie Chung interview and realized, um, you know, whatever whatever he's doing, don't have anything about his background, but whatever he's doing, this is the route I want to go found out, um, he was, uh, a chiropractor and then I thought that's what I need to do.

And about an hour later, I emailed the [00:15:00] school and said, I'm not coming and. a few months off and waited for the next course to come through and went the route to be a chiropractor as a base and then went and took courses for the Kerrigan Institute and realized later on Dr. Kerrig was so much more.

He was, you know, never to step over that. He was the founding father of functional neurology and created everything from the ground up and just an absolute. brilliant mind that gave us all a tremendous foundation to build upon. and I was fortunate later on to go, um, work for him and Dr. Antonucci at Plasticity and have a great background that the first patients I saw, and really the only cases I saw were ones that. Um, had been, you know, 10, 12 different places and, you know, I've been to you name the clinic and didn't get the results they wanted. So it made some of the work a little bit more difficult, but in a way, it gave a lot of avenues that we realized there's so many areas over here that these patients are going through very common diagnoses, or at least different types of diagnostic procedures. But they're missing a [00:16:00] very large picture that's giving a lot of our answers. So we're able to just super specialize into that. And that was I was very fortunate that my first job, um, right out of school, actually, while I was in school, was just being around, you know, some of the most brilliant minds in neurology and allowed me to publish a lot of papers and research.

But that gave me a very, uh, quick education into the application of neurology from the textbook that you don't see. So. That's where my background came out of. It was, it was really more than from genetics, right to neurology and, and then just really seeing the overlap from the cellular level. So, also kind of also demonstrates that there, there is no avenue that you, you can't go into.

Joey: Wow. What a story. And. I'm so grateful for people like you and the doctors you, you know, you studied with, and I saw that you've done a ton of research on this as well. Like you've published so many papers, things like that too. So it's just so fascinating. And, um, what a privilege to, to just be at the forefront of this kind of new, uh, field of [00:17:00] study and, and the way in which you're helping people.

So my goodness, I'm honored to talk with you. I, uh, I wanted to. Maybe paint a little bit of a clearer picture on top of what you've already explained about kind of what parts of the body, function neurology focuses on. You already mentioned the senses and the sixth sense, like you said. Um, take us a little bit deeper there.

Dr. Paul: Yeah, so if you could imagine, we talked about it a little bit, there's, there's no limitations to neurology, but imagine a situation where, let's say an individual is going through, oh, they're about to do some public speaking and, you know, you're about to give that speech or, or, you know, you're about to hit that golf ball, whatever it might be.

And then the heart rate starts going. Nothing in your environment is necessarily abnormal. You could be around people that you're completely comfortable with, but just an interpretation of settings around you allowed for different little intricacies in that autonomic nervous system that now the heart rate's going.

You start to, you know, pupil [00:18:00] sweat. And then performance can lack. Some people will develop certain stutters. Some people will, you know, the golf swing change, all these little intricacies that could occur are motor responses because of a poor interpretation of an environment. Or you can look at also the emotional system, how it plays a role.

Because one of the ways that we look at it is if you can imagine the emotional system being treated just like a motor pathway, no different than if I were to reach out and shake your hand and you would say, okay, well, I'd want to reach my hand out and extend it, you know, grasp and then release and pull back.

You would just look at that and realize the systems that were involved in the frontal lobe and some of the areas in the back part of our brain or cell realm to navigate that and make sure it was nice and smooth and rhythmic. Well, that same type of process is occurring. But in this case, the motor pathway is a limbic response, happiness, sadness.

fear, anxiety. It's, although a little bit different, very, [00:19:00] very similar in terms of its application. So you can have people who, you know, they're getting these different arrhythmias or You look at people who have, um, POTS is a great example, you know, postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome, where their heart rate increases or decreases based upon perception of gravity.

So now you can see the little intricacies where the vestibular system, the areas in your inner ear, how they have a direct influence to postural responses. Because if you were to be laying down, you would imagine that would be a relaxed state and your heart rate would respond as such. But if you were going to sit up and be involved in an activity, you can imagine you'd want to have a blood pressure and heart rate and rhythm that would match that.

Well, if these areas brainstem, are not responding to the environment appropriately, then any output you could have is going to have these aberrancies. And that's why we can look at almost everything, regardless if a person has Parkinson's, concussion, [00:20:00] had, uh, trauma in the past. And we've, you know, um, prior to, to me becoming a functional neurologist long before, and actually then recent, I've been fortunate, um, some of my other current jobs working with, uh, the Navy SEALs and, uh, Uh, the rangers and and a few other components of the military where we can look at these people and not only are they utilizing functional neurology.

for their return to play or their return to battle, but they're also looking at it as how can we get them after they retire after their discharge, how can we get them back into being those, you know, functional members of society because, you know, we hear unfortunate the trauma and the horror stories of, you know, our vets, they go out and represent and serve our country so well, but then they come back and we have these emotional distresses that we can put them in the correct environment.

everything could be and comfort and they're back home. Yet we still have these aberrancies in response. And we realized some of it's not just the environment, but we have to be able to access these [00:21:00] deeper, older parts of our brain that are survival driven. So again, you can realize that there's, there's no, um, areas that you can't serve, but because of that, if we're just looking at those little intricacies, you could see that you can have someone that, That looks like a cardiovascular problem or it mimics, um, changes in, um, you know, you know, we, we've seen changes in, um, pregnancy rates.

We've seen people with changes of different, uh, hormone outputs, increased testosterone or estrogen levels. That are, and certainly not in all cases, but they are, some of them, uh, brain driven responses, and you address these areas of the brain, and the successes are right there, and then when you have, which we're fortunate in, um, in our clinic in Ohio to combine where we say, if we take functional neurology with functional medicine and trauma therapy, and you combine this triad, I mean, you have an incredible response where now you're addressing everything from not only the neurologic, but the [00:22:00] metabolic and a direct input in the, in the limbic system, and I mean, it's just home run time and time again.

Joey: So good. No, I love the holistic approach, and I think so many people would agree that, I hope one day it's everyone would agree, that uh, You know, so much of our medical system is just so like segmented and siloed and we don't look at the human body, the human person like through this holistic lens and that's what I hear you saying, which is like so, so good.

And it's so wise to it makes sense that you're the work that you're doing would be so effective. Because it's not just looking at, you know, an individual symptom and being like, well, it must be this because of this and this, but it's like really saying, well, what else is going on? And, you know, how, yeah.

So I just love the holistic approach.

Dr. Paul: Zach, could you look at, I mean, an example you hear talk about, like in the orthopedic world and PT and OT where they talk like the kinetic change, someone has a knee issue. but it could be coming from the hip or the low back or the ankle. It's really a theory, just neurology's kinetic chain application.

It is those avenues because we could see it time and time again where, uh, you know, I'm a big sports fan and I've [00:23:00] set a game a couple of weeks ago. Won't say which team, but probably easy to find. Um, watched one of my, uh, big MVPs drop down with a knee injury. And was that a knee problem or was that from different areas of the ankle?

You know, big football fan. I'm fortunate to work with some of the leagues and teams, but, um, you know, I've watched some of the players that are on my beloved team, which if you look around close, some of you will find out where they have some soft tissue injuries, and they've been dealing with these for their whole career, and you look and realize, is it a soft tissue issue, which it could be, or if we addressed all these areas in the gym, and we're still having these soft tissue complaints, is it a neurologic response that we Aren't getting the information to the muscles in time and then the output is delayed, you know, no different than we talked about those derogatory before, you know, what if an individual feels as though they're tilted this position and if you were to walk around like this all day, he would certainly have contraction of muscles over here because you'd be trying to pull yourself up all day long.

So if you were going around [00:24:00] because you had a perceived, um, portion of gravity where you felt like you were leaning to the right, as an example. Okay. All of a sudden, you're going to have not only shortened muscles on that right side and elongated ones on the left, but you'd also have a lot of reflexogenic responses all day long trying to pull you left, even though you are up and down, you're perceiving it opposite.

So every response you make would be different, at which point now we're having these, holes and these tears of hamstrings and everything left and right in the league because we're looking at things sometimes solely from a soft tissue response. But if we put someone on these balance plates and we looked at centers of pressure and we combine that with our analysis of eye movements, we can get a better perception as to where does this person feel like they are in space.

and where space is around them, now we can get a better application as to what they should be responding to. And now some of the injury prevention can look a whole lot different. And it's not just, again, in the sports world, that's in everyday life. If you [00:25:00] perceive, um, a new relationship as being, um, you know, tarnished for whatever reason, because it resembles someone you knew before, that's not giving a fresh, clean slate to this new person.

But if we can allow these areas of the brain to have a better interpretation of what's the current environment and be allowed to interpret your settings in a much different way. Some of these responses of PTSD or trauma responses from adoption and everything like that, you know, we can solve these a lot quicker or at least help them along where Um, we're still using traditional therapy responses, but because we're addressing the areas of the brain in conjunction with that or prior to now, these traditional therapies of the talk therapy or the the nutritional therapies and functional medicine because the brain is actually healthy and these tissues are able to respond appropriately.

Now, the successes from those other avenues that the patient tried before that it couldn't quite stick. [00:26:00] Now they're having the success that they didn't have before all because you just addressed the areas of the brain that were really of Concern that weren't looked at because you know, it is taught in school.

Unfortunately, very compartmentalized. Okay. This is the knee This is the temporal this well, how do they work together? Don't worry about that. You just you just prefer them out to somebody else the knee guy will look at that Well, am I ever gonna talk to the knee guy? No, in fact, the patient's not gonna see the knee guy for a year so By the time they go there, they've got other issues.

And you know, now we're lost in the system. But if we're looking at it from a whole, that holistic, and we're looking at it from that connected approach now, now you're addressing things from the source right away. And we're not worried about the knee. We're looking at what the source is and the knee's gonna take care of itself unless there is a knee issue as well.

And now we're dealing with that in the end versus just starting there and hoping and praying we get to the right area. The guesswork's gone. You're making the, uh, you know, invisible visible.

Joey: So good. You made me think of [00:27:00] a switch the U. S. Navy made somewhat recently. I remember hearing that on some of their smaller boats, they would have all these specialists.

on the boats who were just very focused on like one area, like the engineering or, you know, whatever other areas, I don't know, the Navy. and what they, the switch that they made is they made uh, the teams on these boats more generalists. Where they were able to do different things and they weren't maybe so honed in or siloed or compartmentalized, like you said, in one area.

And it's been like a game changer apparently for them. And so some of what I hear you saying is like, certainly you like have such an expertise in this, but in a way, in the right way, you're like more of a generalist. You're looking at the whole system, you're looking at it, um, without, you know, just focusing on one system, not knowing anything about the rest, which is, it makes so much sense to me.

And, uh, You know, it's awesome to hear that you've worked with special operators and with, you know, pro athletes. Cause I just think it speaks to the credibility and how effective this is. Cause what I've seen too, especially in like the medical world or the performance world, the, the best [00:28:00] and most cutting edge things often start there before they get to the general population, because those are the people who like, they want to be at their very best, whether it's Olympians or pro athletes or, you know, people performing at a high level.

And so it's cool to see how it's going to be spread. far and wide, but that you're starting with that group. That's a really good sign for everyone listening. If you want to know something about this, um, so much there. I, uh, I did have a question for you. I was listening to Jordan Peterson the other day, and he was talking about Gottman, uh, Dr.

John Gottman's research. And he was talking about how, you know, Gottman would bring couples to anyone who's not aware that Gottman has studied marriage and especially, Conflict within marriage for over 30 years now and supposedly they can predict with like 94 percent accuracy whether a couple is going to get divorced or not just by observing how they handle conflict and We've gone into this a bit in other episodes, but one of the things that Peterson made me Want to ask you was that they when they're looking at [00:29:00] neurobiological level They're seeing that they're in, in these, um, couples that were conflict is handled poorly, where they follow like the four horsemen of the apocalypse, um, their bodies literally reacting as if there's a predator present, it's what he said.

Could you break that down for us? I'm so fascinated by that.

Dr. Paul: Yeah, without, uh, without naming too many of my exes, well, we can go through that, but it's interesting because you look at some of those areas with, um, with his research, and then there's even some of his other colleagues and people he learned from or looked at it were type A personalities, or this is an alpha versus a beta, maybe, maybe we do need always the pack leader, and thus the next person in the relationship has to, by default, be that, that next personality type or type B, and it's not necessary that way, but And if you could look at it from a few different ways, you know, if you can imagine, and it's not like this in all, in all cases, and it is very individualized, but one of the things that occurs in this was, if you're trying to, if one of the things you're trying to do, and no matter what, and one of the ways that I just do it, it's just easier for [00:30:00] me if I, if I look at it, because, you know, neurology is, is certainly complicated and there's, you know, You know, dozens of books over there about it, but, you know, in the end it is complicated.

There's a lot of, you know, tiny intricate names of these nuclei and it's Latin. This guy's French over here. You know, there's a lot of those areas and you're trying to figure out that compartmentalized system, but if you just imagine and you take almost that, um, like Uh, you're on the island approached by yourself or you're in the middle of the woods and you think, okay, if I was to survive this, what would be the adaptations I would make?

How would I evolve to whatever the surroundings are around me? But if a person in the area, in certain areas of their brain, in some of these back areas of the brain, these higher areas in the brainstem, that give you a good sense of where you are in the world and where the world is around you. And it combines a lot of things.

memories, both short and long term, uh, you know, facial recognition, you know, your posture and balance. Cause again, if you're, you know, if you're like, I, I trust you, but let's say I interpret you as a super [00:31:00] strong individual. I don't mind maybe walking too close to the cliff because he'll save me. But if I'm with someone who's super tiny and I think, man, if I, if I jump here, he can't grab me, you know, all of a sudden your interpretation of the same person, but now exposed in a much different sense.

Maybe it's not so good. Maybe you move to an area where you think, you know, my partner here, they this is good We're compatible Until all of a sudden something brings into the home and now you're having the argument who sleeps closer to the door frame, right? Who's who gets who gets the other side of the bed?

It's, it's, it's just taking the environment and allowing these little intricate changes. But if these areas in the brain are either causing anxiety, where you only analyze the negatives of the situations, then sometimes you only view your partner in, can they only help me in the negatives? But from the other way too, if you only analyze things in the positive sense, You're kind of dumbfounded when things don't go a certain way.

And it's that way in these relationships and these analytics where if these areas of the brain are not working well, that are [00:32:00] giving you a good timestamp to the current present and being able to remove that and say, look, that that unfortunate thing that happened to me 10 years ago, it's always going to be with me.

Cause that is a survival component that you carry over, but that wasn't this person. They still get the clean slate and then we're going to use those things. Cause if we see the comparisons, you know, those red flags, Then we have those conversations. But if everything is automatically, everybody with brown hair is the devil, then those types of things are not going to really carry over going forward.

That's going to give you the success in life. But if you're looking at them, because we can look at these areas of the brain through, through a vast number of uh, diagnostic criteria and everything, You know, now we can get a better picture as to what's going on in this person's brain. What are the responses?

Cause we're not just looking at it from those areas of the brain. But also downstream, we're looking at, we're measuring the autonomics. We're looking at, you know, the blood pressure and heart rate bilaterally. We're putting them in different posture, but we're, we're exposing them to different [00:33:00] environments.

We're not, we don't expose them to 500 people to understand how they respond, but we need to at least tax the system to figure out if we know what's going on in this person's brain, and then they're telling us because they're in front of us now and giving us this idea of how it's affecting them in the, in a negative way.

We can really design a direct game plan for them unique to everything else customized for them that gives them a very, very, um, high success probability that we can solve these things or at least give them much better tools and direction that their life is successful.

Joey: Love that. And I love the customized approach.

That was something I don't think I realized coming into this interview, um, how customized it is. And that makes a lot of sense how it's hard to maybe give, you know, perfect general answers. But once you understand the specifics of someone's situation, you're able to really dig into that and say, this is what you need to do, which I'm really excited to go deeper into that.

Um, if I'm understanding that, right.

Dr. Paul: I can give you an example of that. [00:34:00] There was a, there was a really good, uh, papers done, uh, probably a handful of years ago. My question goes 10 years ago at this point. where it analyzed a group of students who were just having reading difficulties. You know, they were, all they, all they knew was that this individual, they just took 30 kids in a classroom, they said, all right, all we know is these individuals are reading X amount of levels below their grade level.

So then they took a couple of different customized approaches into how they did it. They put one category in where they looked at And they applied no differences in their training. And they said, all right, if we look at eye movement analytics and these saccades, if we're looking at them saying. Or if they're going to jump from word to word to word, if their ocular motor approaches are inaccurate, then they're reading the same line twice.

They're skipping lines. So now they're reading comprehension scores, of course, are going to be poor, because they're not even getting the whole story. So when you're asking, you know, where did Spot run? You're going, who's Spot? You know, if you're looking at it from that way, if you can't read accurately, And [00:35:00] that's going to tank your reading comprehension scores.

So those individuals were given certain eye movement criteria, just generalized ones, and put over here. The other ones who were having the reading comprehension issues, they did other types of classic maneuvers that were more customized to them, and they were put in their category. In the end of the 30, everyone jumped at least three to four grade levels, and all they did was do this for 10 minutes a day for two weeks.

But it's taking that customized approach and realizing the kids sit next to you, they're Maybe their exercises aren't going to work for you. You're both struggling in reading, but for vast different reasons, it's all customizable. Once you understand what that person needs, I mean, sky's the limit.

Joey: So good.

And I love that approach because it's so, like you said, individualized, personalized, customized. Like that's, I think what people need. I think that's like one size fits all. We've seen for so many reasons, just doesn't. Doesn't work well. So, man, I'm loving this. I'm curious if there's any typical neurological, um, dysfunctions that are associated with emotional trauma.

And I know, [00:36:00] you know, we're talking to an audience, obviously, who comes from, you know, broken families, traumatic family situations, whether it's high dysfunction, like I mentioned, or divorce. So I'm curious if there's any kind of typical telltale signs, symptoms that come up neurologically for someone coming from that background.

Dr. Paul: That's a great question. That's where, although it's customizable and similar, there are some patterns that certainly follow. Now there's certainly types that, you know, this one's going to be the anomaly, but a lot of times, and what's interesting is, and I've been fortunate to do a lot of, recent studies with this and see a lot of, recent patients on this in the last few years where patients who have gone through traumas and not just relationship traumas, have very similar mimicking of areas of the brain that aren't working and responding so well as those who were from, uh, who were adopted and a lot of them adopted from, from other countries who either had, um, you know, unfortunate past histories that they may or may not know.

they're in, you know, phenomenal loving families currently, but have [00:37:00] similar areas. And one of the areas that we're noticing a lot of times is not only these back areas of the brain in this posterior parietal cortex, it's, you know, giving these responses or should give these responses into, you know, time space relationship.

I mean, this is where Einstein was very good and, you know, seeing those extra dimensions that you can't see through the naked eye because it gives you an interpretation of self versus world. Well, that would definitely be skewed if, again, you're analyzing a situation with yourself, a relationship, a newly adopted parent that is, you know, you're perceiving as a way from before because your subconscious wasn't working so well.

And some of the others are these almost perseverations or these wind ups in these areas of the frontal lobe. Uh, in the areas of executive function, uh, mainly up front is when the problem is area 11, it's the orbital frontal area. And that's like your gatekeeper to the emotional limbic system. So that would be, you're about to have a emotional response, happiness, sadness, and [00:38:00] it's going to pass through this orbital frontal area as well, uh, to give some of these action commands to these much deeper areas in the brain.

Well, if those areas are overworking or working a little bit slower than they need to, uh, then the response is skewed. And what's interesting is we've seen a lot of patients that, especially from adoptive families that still have their primitive reflexes, which should be attenuated, you know, by two, two and a half, depending on, um, the type of, of the type of relapse.

Some of them are gone by six months. Some of them last two, two and a half years, possibly. We have some patients that I've seen that, you know, 13, 14 years old. that still have these pre motor reflexes because these areas of the brain in the front haven't developed because of these areas of perception that these areas of the frontal lobe are working well, but these areas are super deficient.

All of a sudden you address these and you say, well, of course they can't make an appropriate decision and they have these very odd behaviors or they act immature in these other areas. Then it's because areas in the brain haven't [00:39:00] developed well. And so, like I said, a lot of it's that area that gives you that current time space relationship.

Where am I? Where's the world around me? As you can imagine, that's going to be very critical if you're going to analyze an environment. And these other areas are also heavily involved with not only emotions, but emotional memories is the key one. And those areas, uh, quite often are deficient or lagging behind in the development.

And we could address those, uh, you know, noninvasively, uh, pretty successfully.

Joey: So fascinating. Uh, one of the things in the research that I've seen is that the biggest area of life that's impacted when your parents get divorced in particular is your own future relationships, especially your future marriage.

And I'm curious kind of how you, I have my way of interpreting that as like a lay person and someone who's been through, you know, been through that. I'm curious how you might interpret that, um, neurologically. In addition to what you've already said, why is it such a struggle? Why is it such a struggle for, you know, like one of the ways I articulated it in college was, it was [00:40:00] like, man, it feels like my relationships, my dating relationships in particular are just like so much more difficult, so much harder than my friends, from what I'm hearing, my friends.

Say who come from maybe healthy intact families. And so yeah, it was always baffling to me and marriage and you know, a lot of ways you know has been a challenge and you know, we've worked through things for sure and are in a better spot, but But I we've seen that trend and I think that's why so often you know, it's just cycle that repeats itself like we talked about Before recording is that, you know, we end up coming from these broken families and we don't really know how to build healthy relationships and we build unhealthy relationships, which leads to broken marriages and broken families and this whole thing.

So I'm just curious, like, from your vantage point, um, people have heard me talk about it, but I'm curious from your vantage point, like, why, why do we end up repeating that? And what's going on like below the surface that we don't maybe talk about?

Dr. Paul: Yeah, if you can imagine that, and that's point two. And also some of what we talked about, Cameron, if you look at, you know, the, the rates now, especially of, of divorce, and you look at [00:41:00] the, difficulties in relationships and, and certainly social media doesn't help in their perceptions of they feel, uh, you know, an appropriate relationship is, and, you know, the, the higher numbers of even open relationships, which is, it's, it's, it's a whole nother box of whatever's, but if, if you look at as that becomes normalized, You have to look at some of the other areas too of one that's a massive subset of population.

That's that's definitely going to be needing care But in that interpretation of it, you know, you're at most times not always but you know There is a you know a product of your environment But if you can imagine if you at a young age or whatever age you had relationship difficulties You have to make sense of it because again you have to be able to survive The next avenue, you're still a living organism that has to adapt.

You don't know if it was because of a trauma or you, you stepped on a landmine. The reality is a negative behavior occurred. And thus you have to make sure that you can analyze those things differently. Well, now I know what a landmine looks like versus now. I know what a bad relationship looks like and what signs to [00:42:00] look for.

So these areas have to adapt to it. But if you look at it from there's what we consider plasticity versus negative plasticity, you know, for those who aren't either heard of the terms aren't quite sure, you know, plasticity is that ability of the brain to make, you know, microscopic connections. between other areas of the brain.

You know, when they talk about like muscle memory, the muscles don't remember anything. It's these areas of the brain and the motor cortex that are able to produce much more hardwired pathways to make that type of movement more efficient. Well, there's plasticity, good thing, but you could have negative plasticity where you have, you know, a wind up where all of a sudden you, you see something, all of a sudden you develop a stutter, or you, you know, you see water on the right and all you think of is, well, don't block it right.

And you start pulling them left all the time in golf, you know, whatever those movements are, you have ad adapted avoidant behaviors. So if you're not able to fully address. what the reasons are why you Don't quite have something because maybe [00:43:00] you were exposed to Your parents doing something that you didn't know or all of a sudden you just think are all relationships going to end in divorce I thought my parents loved each other, you know, whatever those things could be if You aren't, not only necessarily, you're going to make sense of it, maybe even you feel like you made sense of it, but these areas in the subconscious, you know, are waving their fingers saying, no, you didn't.

You have these avoidant behaviors and because of that, now you develop these negative plasticity and now your whole world and adaptation is a consequence of just something that happened in the past that may or may not have even directly affected you, but now it has. So, that's some of the things that occur.

But again, when you look at it and being able to make sense of it through combination of, you know, trauma therapy, functional neurology, there's even been great research coming out in the last few years from, you know, Harvard and some of my colleagues up in Canada with psilocybin mushrooms and looking at those areas in psychedelics and being able to hit these Areas in the limbic [00:44:00] system and frontal lobe, you know, all these different avenues that could be addressed You can have an ability to look deeper within and make sense of those things because otherwise you do develop the avoidant behaviors And yeah, your successes and the relationships are probably going to be diminished because of it.

Joey: So good Let me I want to make sure I understand this and i'll just kind of give you a little bit of a readback And what i'm hearing is that We kind of subconsciously and even like neurobiologically pick up patterns in life, patterns of behavior, ways of treating people. So if like our parents are, you know, like one of the things I observed growing up and my parents would be the first one to tell you this is they just didn't handle conflict very well.

And so, you know, they would argue, things would get loud and then one or both of them would just kind of walk away and nothing was really resolved. And so for me going into relationships, I felt like, my goodness, I really have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to conflict. It feels really scary. It's a lot, like you said, easier to just kind of avoid that and tiptoe around and not talk about maybe hard things.

And so, on a brain level, it sounds like that's just kind of what my brain learned to [00:45:00] do. And that it truly can be rewired, but like you're saying, we need to first kind of go to that place of, okay, this is what I learned. And then this is kind of how I'm dealing with it now. And this is what maybe I want to be doing in the future differently.

 and, That muscle memory, like you mentioned, just like with swinging a bat or a golf club or hockey stick, like we can train our brains even in relationships to do things differently too, which I think is super hopeful because what I've seen a lot with this audience too, because me being one of them is, we, I think it feel really hopeless.

We can feel really helpless. We can feel, uh, fall into kind of the whole victim mentality thing of being like, well, I'm kind of screwed. Came from a really messed up family, broken family, never really saw a healthy relationship. I have this maybe slew of unhealthy relationships that I fell into. I don't know if I'm capable of even building a good marriage of, you know, and all that.

And so I think it could lead to this dark space. So this is just very hopeful even.

Dr. Paul: Yeah, no, it's incredibly, you know, you have it not only from personal experience where you go, oh, no, this one didn't work out. All hope is gone. No, it's not. No, it's not. It's not at all. In fact, you probably are going to gain a whole lot [00:46:00] more from it if you have an ability to look at why that one didn't work out.

Now you have an entire, you know, new line of questioning or adaptation to apply to it. I'll be the first that, you know, it didn't always work. I was necessarily, um, for myself and some of my friends and family around me. But now when you can look at it from a different approach and it, you know, maybe as an instant, but if you have those resources around you and not necessarily solely just a functional neurologist, but those friends and family around you that you could bounce the ideas off of.

If you're given a better blueprint as to what to ask and realize that, okay, given this environment, what can I do next? Now you have a much better chance of success than, than not addressing those things. And instantaneously. Um, just bottling it up and go, Oh, that's, that's it for me. It's, it's not, it's not

Joey: beautiful.

I love it. So, so inspiring. And I want to get a little bit more, um, kind of nitty gritty in terms of what, if someone were to come to see you, like imagine someone's listening right now and they want to make an appointment with you and they were to come and see you, like, what would that look like? What [00:47:00] would the first appointment look like?

If they were to tell you like, yeah, You know, even like, especially with this audience, I come from a broken family. These are my struggles. I have emotional problems like anxiety, depression, loneliness. I, you know, maybe have behavior, uh, bad habits in my life. Um, I have, you know, relationship struggles like we were talking about.

Um, yeah. What would the first appointment look like? How would you assess them? I'm curious, kind of the whole nine years.

Dr. Paul: No, that's a, that's a great one because, you know, when you hear functional neurology go, yeah, well, what is it? What do I do? What are you actually doing here? This guy talked about PTOT, balance this, this person's falling off a cliff.

You know, with functional neurology and what the first appointments look like generally, um, I'll do a screening first and, and have a conversation with the person just to make sure I understand what's going on. I don't need a full detailed history and that stuff. I want to first understand is functional neurology going to work for this person?

Because there might be a population where it's, necessarily not and not always the case, but if they are under maybe certain medications that they have to come off of or they're [00:48:00] hospitalized currently in those things, or, you know, we've, I mean, we've been fortunate that we've seen people in comas and locked in syndrome.

So you are not limited by what those are. But we just want to make sure that is this going to work for you? And to be honest with you, the majority of the patients that it works for are ones that it's open for. If you're coming in and you really have no, uh, want or desire to improve, one of the things that makes functional neurology, somewhat limited is the fact that it's also limited by your ability to, you know, get to appointments and work together on those things.

And there's home exercises, but not as complicated. But that first appointment after the screening, we say, okay, Yeah, this is a case I could help. This is something this is working. We could work with these areas. Your first appointment is combination of almost an interview a history of what's going on a lot of question answer back and forth, followed by it's a pretty detailed physical exam.

I mean, it's usually our couple minutes longer or more. I mean, we've had some two hour exams, three hour exams. We've [00:49:00] had some that are, you know, half hour. And what we'll do is we're going to analyze those senses. We're going to look at a few different pieces of technology. We're going to do some bedside exams.

We're going to do the classic finger, nose, finger. We're going to shine the light in the eyes and look at pupil responses, but we're also going to do posturography and balance testing. We're going to look at, um, analysis of eye movements from tracking targets, pursuits, jumping from target to target saccades, um, optic kinetics, vestibular reflexes in all different planes.

Because again, we're looking at for the intricacies. You're telling me maybe you're having relationship difficulties or you're having trouble with balance or back pain or, um, you're having trouble playing your sport or you have a tremor, you know, we're just looking to figure out, okay, where's the breakdown that's causing this output that you don't, that we don't need so much.

And we're looking at those senses specific to you. We might have these general platforms that we're looking at the eye movements, the balance tends to testing the pinwheel sensation. We're looking at [00:50:00] the autonomics. You know, we're, we're looking and listening to the heart rate and different various positions, and we're doing a pretty detailed examination.

Like I said, it's going to take, you know, sometimes an hour to two hours quite often, but that's going to allow us a big picture is to figure out what areas in the brain are working well and which areas need addressing. And what does that have to do with what you're here for? Then we create that customized plan specific for you.

And, um, the way I work and research is, has demonstrated to be the most efficient and, um, also due to some of the schedules that we all have. Um, the way we generally worked with is an intensive model, which means to say, generally, you're going to see me three times a day or three to five days and your first appointment is going to take, you know, that maybe a couple hours, a little bit more into the analytics and figure out what's going on with you.

And then right when you come back in, we're starting that treatment plan. And that's again, that combination of whatever you need. It could be a, catered version of vestibular vision [00:51:00] therapy. Uh, some, some of the balance training, some of the movements and the fine tuning. I mean, some of it is you, I've had PT before.

Oh, teens you have, and we're using that as the blanket terminology, but we're applying it specific to you for what these reasons are. in combination with many other areas. So you're having that next appointment, you know, generally that's, we'll say an hour, a couple more hours off. And then you're coming back that third time and we're just repeating those treatments then for the next few days and making those micro changes based off what we see.

Cause each before and after each exam or our appointment, rather we're looking at, okay, where are we at? Where do we need to make those adaptations? Because if we're doing something, if, if I, you know, move a patient's head and vestibular rehab, I should be able to retest. Some of these areas in the eye movements or the balance and I should be able to see a micro change and if we're seeing Those changes already Instantly, we know we're on the right thing.

If not, then we need to change that exercise right away So before you even leave that first appointment, we have a pretty clear I'd understanding [00:52:00] of where at least we need to start with your exercise. It's not guesswork. It's not oh, you have a concussion Well, this is what we do for concussion. I mean, I've no idea we're gonna do it yet I have no idea what you have.

I have no idea what we're going to do, but we're going to figure out now specific for you. And that's, that's how each appointment works. So generally you're with, me for, you know, three to four hours a day for at least three to five days. Yeah, we've been fortunate with them. We do that pre and post measurements, um, you know, that at about 90 to 95 percent of cases were at or exceeded, um, whatever the goals were for the week.

That's one thing we also do is keep a lot of stats on, um, from sleep performance, which is, which is one that's always been a residual that I've only ever had a handful that have come in for sleep abnormalities. But generally sleep is affected because these areas of the brain not working so, so well. Um, but we're, we're tracking sleep.

We're tracking the heart rate and rhythm. We're looking at sometimes for some people their blood work pre and post. We're looking at all these intricacies and um, now we're able to make some, [00:53:00] some pretty substantial gains in, in a small, small window.

Joey: Yeah, that's incredible. Within three to five days, and I imagine you're kind of like setting the body and the brain up on a path to continue healing itself to, so it doesn't just stop past the, you know, the three to five days and someone comes back for more, but you're really trying to Um, from what I understand, keep the body going forward.

Is that right?

Dr. Paul: A hundred percent. I mean, for no, no reason. Then, uh, when you first told me your name, I still remember it. You know, that was a pathway. I didn't know that was a, that was a stimuli. I didn't know. And all of a sudden, well, now I know this person's name and I can remember that going forward.

It's that same concept. We're just applying it to, well, this person had a tremor. We want to make a little bit smoother. This person has some balance issues. We're trying to improve just by increasing and changing the stimuli in the brain. You're making instantaneous adaptations. But we want the adaptations to be, you know, in the direction where it's more symmetric and more appropriate versus, you know, that negative plasticity and, and they hold, and we still give you exercises to do at home for X [00:54:00] amount of period of time.

Again, that's all, that's all part of the whole, whole process and cater to you. But now, because of that, we're having a plan specific for you, and we know it's going to stick and hold, and in those cases where you have a degenerative condition or a neurodegenerative condition, you know, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, well, if we know the trajectory is going to be downward, if every so often we can recommend you come in for a boost, if you plateau in a condition that the trajectory is downward, that's an improvement the way I'm looking at it.

But for all these other cases, if you're down here We can give you these boosts up and you're not going to come back down because, you know, uh, uh, these other conditions are not, um, you know, necessarily neurodegenerative. They can be, if they're not addressed though. So by addressing them and getting you back on the right path, I mean, we're, we're stopping the probability or minimizing it that we can have a lot more of these other things down the road.

Like we look at, you know, multiple head injuries have a sevenfold increase of causing Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, you know, [00:55:00] but if that's non treated for treating those, you know, we're, we're much more minimizing the risk of that. And that's, that's what we're trying to do is not only help you for now, you know, But how can we continue to success, set you up for success down the road?

Because in plenty of times, you know, we can exceed your goals and now it's okay. Well, what else do you want to work on? We got that. So what else do we need if we need to come back down the road? Cause now you want to, you know, have a new performance goal and we're all for it. But otherwise, you know, what else can we do for you?

Because you're not just limited by, and we want to keep your balance. We want to get your eye movements there. What are some other things that's carrying over your daily living? Or your, your relationship issues or and the other thing is to how else we working in conjunction with your providers back home.

Who else do we need to work within this? If that's the case, you know, we definitely come manage with, you know, I said in our, in our clinic, functional medicine and trauma therapy. But if we need to do additional things. You know, we're always open and always for it. And that's again, it's creating that catered plan for that person

Joey: makes so much sense.

And I love that approach, like [00:56:00] how you can have those touch points in the future if you need them or want to improve or prevent a bad condition from getting worse. Um, but you're not necessarily signing up for life. I had a friend recently tell me that he was having some back problems and, uh, he wanted to go to a chiropractor, but he was like, eh, I don't know.

He kind of felt like he was going to be signing up for like a life of adjustments, like a lifetime of adjustments. But he went to a chiropractor who was, sounds like really competent and the chiropractor was like, no, we'll do two adjustments and you should be good to go. Um, so I love that approach instead of like, you know, They needed to pop a pill for the rest of your life or something like that, which not putting people down who have a condition that needs that.

But, um, but I love this approach better and no, so good. And on that note, I'm just curious if you have any success stories of patients you've worked with who maybe were in this one condition and then they were to work with you and then they're able to improve and be in this better spot in life.

Dr. Paul: And so I've been quite fortunate to work with a lot of different, uh, I said from athletes to Average bank, but I'll, [00:57:00] lemme think.

I, I would say the best one, I'll give a, it was a week that was pretty impactful, uh, uh, for me. And, and I was working in a, in a, clinic and, and, and then I start. In Florida where, um, I generally see two to three patients a week, which is kind of how you do it when you average out, you know, how many patients you're working with.

If you're doing an intensive thing, I mean, you're out with your an hour a day, you know, three patients automatically is, you know, 10 hours, not just your own time, which, which not opposed to work in the long days, but you know, for the patient now someone's coming at 7am and not leaving until four. Right.

So we limit to make sure that it's, it's also comfortable for patients, but in one particular week, I had an individual who was, uh, um, Uh, I'll just say ejected from a car after being hit by a train was found in a, in a tree pretty, pretty far away. And, uh, he was a younger, younger kid, an athlete and, and he was in a wheelchair, had no, couldn't, couldn't walk.

Maybe you would never know talking to him that there were any, abnormalities. So the fact that he was, he's in a wheelchair, had no, uh, vestibular postural tone. [00:58:00] So that was one. I had another patient who was, uh, uh, a fortune 500 CEO. perfectly healthy, perfectly functional, but at a fear that he was going to lose his job because of, you know, if the next kid coming up can do everything in 12 hours and can make faster decisions, the board's going to love him, especially if he's going to do it for a little bit cheaper rate.

And all of a sudden he's worried about, you know, working 18 hour days and burn it out and, you know, his health's tanking. Because he's inefficient in some of his decision making, and you know, we're looking at it from, you check the boxes, you know, no person really in the medical community would, I mean, you're, you could, I mean, you could Google this person, find him in seconds, you go, what, there can't be anything wrong with this person, he's, you know, one of the richest in the world, and there's no reason why there should be abnormalities, what's he here for, and then, on the other end, we had, uh, another person who was, a professional athlete, Um, but out of fear of retirement because they were concerned that in this last year, if they didn't have their performance goals the way they needed to be because [00:59:00] of some recent head injuries, um, that they weren't going to play again.

And unfortunately, we're going through some mental health issues because of that. Um, and also some of their head injuries, we know, unfortunately, can cause a lot of these, mental performance issues. And now they have not only the PTSD, but massive increases of anxiety. So you have three completely different patients that all went through the very same program of what are we here for?

What are your goals? And, um, you know, the, the, the fortune 500 CEO, he, he reached his performance goals and was able to drop his workload. And this is an individual who was drinking four pots of coffee a day. Down to one and, you know, working 18 hours a day back down to 12 to 14 hours, more efficient, you know, stock prices, you know, stockholder value all looks good.

The next individual, the, hockey player, you know, not only was able to get a great contract year. some of the suicidal ideations completely dropped. His relationship was improving because there was a fear of divorce in that one. And also we have now a person who, you know, went on to [01:00:00] have a very successful and probably, no, definitely an all star career, but probably even a Hall of Fame career.

And then this other individual who was, you know, hit by a train. Um, not only was he out of the wheelchair, but he walked out of the clinic on Friday. So, now you have, um, three completely different cases that are all being treated by functional neurology just by being able to look at the brain and analyze and realize if these areas are deficient.

Three completely different systems. Although actually you could argue that, you know, their motor systems or their emotional systems were all taxed, but their treatments look nothing alike. But the approach in the beginning was very similar. It was just start with a clean slate and apply it as need be.

And that was. to be fair, it's kind of a typical week of just, it's, it's those types of success stories I've been fortunate to have, um, because the foundation, um, you know, my colleagues laid out and, and did a lot of groundwork and improvements in diagnostics and everything. And, you know, very fortunate to be not only at the cutting edge, but really on the receiving end of it, that, you know, I wasn't, uh, I was only [01:01:00] involved in the creation of a couple pieces of technology in my career.

But I've been able to, uh, to really stand on the, on the shoulders with a lot of them that have laid a great foundation and education and just fortunately taught me how to apply it in a way that allowed for a lot of this. So kind of also shows that once again, it's clean slate, everything's catered to you, whatever you need, it's, you're, you're, you're not alone, number one.

but you're, you're very unique, but you're not unique to the sense that you can't be helped. You're probably seen it before. And these areas of the brain exist, and if you know how to look at it and understand it. Okay, pretty comfortable environment to where you can use the technologies or everything.

It's so basic pretty quickly.

Joey: Wow. Incredible. Super inspiring stories. Amazing results. And I want to ask you a million and one questions, but a couple of final questions before we close down here for the initial assessment. Like if someone was thinking about doing this therapy tomorrow, I'm just curious on the cost side, you don't have to give maybe your specific cost, but generally if they were to go to a [01:02:00] functional neurologist anywhere in the United States, for example, what would the ballpark cost be for something like that?

And does insurance typically cover it?

Dr. Paul: That's where it gets complicated, but not in the United, in other countries. You know, sometimes we're dealing with some of the socialized medicine, you know, there it could be covered, but the wait times could be long. So it was interesting enough, we, I saw, still to this day, I've probably seen more patients or very similar from other countries than the United States, just because they were generally looking for that holistic approach, but weren't able to access it because of their own government limitations.

In the United States, We can get access to it, but payment gets a little bit limited. Insurance will cover some of these things. A lot of times though, it's, you know, it's very dependent upon the why and everything. So a lot of the diagnostics are not covered by general insurances. They will, but they pay a small portion of them.

And then a lot of the other clinics, especially when you're doing intensives, you know, the way insurance billing works, you can only bill for one type of those services per day. And then you're usually limited by how many [01:03:00] times per week. So with all that being said. A lot of the functional neurologists, uh, and even, that's why a lot of the functional medicine docs in those areas are cash driven and it, and I promise you it's not solely for lucrative value, um, to be, to be candid and transparent, it's just because of the fact that you can give a lot, more to a patient, by charging those, By charging certain rates than you could buy insurance and actually we've done a cost analysis of it where we've looked at You know, what's the average person with concussion?

Because that's a higher population of patients. What does the average concussion cost? um a person and uh You know, we were able to see about 250 260k between your years of lost wages job performance, things of that nature. Um, so when we're looking at paying fractions of that for three to five days with the success rates we know we'll be able to have and somewhat of it, it's, it's almost no brainer, at least when you look at that way, [01:04:00] but it is, it is still a cost.

Um, you know, fluctuate and they're, they're dependent upon, you know, each individual one, but I, I would, I would say probably your, your average intensive treatment, I would say would probably range from. Three to 10, 000 for a week. If I was to be, if I was to put a number on it and just be fair, but I, but everything is, is dependent upon, um, where you go, what the locations are and availability and everything.

But I mean, when you compare it to what the average cost of or some of the other areas and your insurance premium is going up, it's actually is a much cheaper, just that, um, majority of them are, are generally cash based for that.

Joey: Yeah, no, it makes so much sense. And no, the investment side of it as well. I think a lot of people only sometimes will only think of.

Um, what they're giving up, but man, you get so much out of it. Yeah. Like you said, when you do the analysis of like me being able to make more money and being able to just live like a better life, that investment, especially. Looking at the way we use our money now, it's like, well I spend this on that car, [01:05:00] that thing.

And it's like, is that really making your life better? Adding a lot of value to life? And for honest it's not. And so things like this I think are compared to that are are wise investment. So that makes sense. And are you able to do like an initial assessment with someone without committing to the intensive or is it kind of a all or nothing?

Model. Oh,

Dr. Paul: no, absolutely. The way and we were just like this. We talked about before creating a catered program to them based upon their condition. What we see on exam. We still base it upon their schedule as well. Now, generally, I travel and have a few different jobs between the U. S. and Canada. So, so around.

So I have worked, but I also work in an intensive environment just because of the fact that, it's general, it's created a better success rate for patients for that population. however, If we're going through an analysis and, you know, again, everything's very transparent. If we do an exam, whereas I don't think we're going to be able to help you, this would be more appropriate.

Or I know we originally talked about setting aside five days, but maybe two or three would [01:06:00] be more beneficial. Then we're very transparent with that. That's, that's what it is. Or if we're at day three and we think, look, truthfully, we can knock this out of the ballpark two more days. And we have those conversations.

So you're not, um, automatically contracted into just once in just because you picked up the phone and talk to me or anybody or the functional neurologist. They have to see that you're automatically locked into those treatment plans. Everything is very individualized, um, and catered. So it's, it's working by the schedule.

And in the cases where. You know, you do have a schedule where you can't do an intensive model. There's always ways to work around it. Things just might take a couple more weeks or months, but it can always be worked and catered to you.

Joey: No, it's really helpful. Thanks for going through all that. And for anyone who isn't aware of this, I have friends who work in the medical world and work at clinics and things and um, dealing with insurance is like a job in itself.

And so this movement towards like cash payments is really wise in a lot of senses and actually can lead to a higher quality of care. Um, because you're not [01:07:00] dealing with these insurance companies and fitting into this box of like, well, that's not a diagnostic that's like in this, you know, 50 year old manual or whatever it is.

So anyway, it's, uh, it's exciting to see kind of where Um, this field is heading and I'm really interested to learn more and maybe I'll need to do some treatments myself, which is awesome. So I did want to ask you, um, if there are any like maybe common myths or misperceptions, misconceptions of this field, of functional neurology.

Dr. Paul: I think some of them in the beginning, I would say the began something to say it's an instant cure all I'm going to be done in two days because he said he got that person on the wheelchair. That's that's not every single case, although to be fair, it's a good majority, but that's not every case and you should never go home thinking I know this is going to be a guaranteed home run 100%.

Nothing is ever that when if anyone gives you a guarantee, you know, you should you should run pretty quick. But one of the other things that you should look at, I think, which is a misconception of functional neurology is that. You know, I think a lot of them will look at, especially from [01:08:00] the, the medical community and some of the original papers that came out, uh, you know, trying to, uh, bash it as a placebo or things of this nature, you know, uh, one of my, founding, uh, member, Dr.

Carrick said on, uh, Connie Chung, you know, if, uh, if this is placebo, then we're doing a pretty good job at it, but if, uh, if you're looking at it from that sense, Um, you know, one of the things that sometimes are the misconceptions are that, you know, I've been to PT or I've been to OT before and it hasn't worked.

So what's different about your vestibular technique versus this and that? And it's, again, it's not a comparison of one versus the other, but in the sense it's the application of it. When you're catering a program to you specifically, and not just your condition, you're catering or your limitations of insurance, then you have as many, options as you want, whatever you can create.

And we're not short on technology. We're not short on, [01:09:00] um, space and ability to, to do those things. So we can create an environment for you. I mean, we've taken Athletes onto their field of sport and designed therapies around there where, okay, we're maybe we're trying to do these types of eye movements from this direction, left to right.

Okay, well, you don't sit in a desk all day. So we need to create an environment for you. Okay, we're going on the ice. We're going to the football field. We're going to hit baseballs and so on. You know, you can create it for you. So because of that, again, when you're not bound by the limitations of different insurances, environment, or technology, then, then everything for you is different.

So just because you've been to one technique before, you tried talk therapy and it didn't work, you are not alone. You are not bound. You're not stuck. It's not over. I promise you there's plenty more stones to uncover and a whole lot more resources available.

Joey: That's tough. If someone wanted to work with you, how would they get in touch with you or maybe another functional neurologist in their area if you don't serve that [01:10:00] area?

Dr. Paul: Yeah, of course. So, um, for myself, I'm always open. You deal with me. I'm kind of the one man show for that one work for a few different companies in neurology and neurotechnology. And as I mentioned before, even a psilocybin mushroom company up in Canada. But if you want to get ahold of me directly. Um, always open.

You can just email me Dr, uh, Dr. Link, L I N K 1 8 at gmail. com. You know, that's me. Anytime you have a consult or you have any questions about navigating the system or finding a, you know, provider near you, always open for that. Uh, there's two other great resources. I'm sure they won't mind if I share this.

Uh, A-A-C-N-B, American College of A CNB, the American chiropractic neurology board.org and A CFN. Um, those are, there's two different ways to, um, sort of become a functional neurologist. There's the diplomat and the Fellowship Avenue, um, and both of those options will give you a list of doctor locators near you in not only the United States, but.

Um, other countries as well. So you'll be able to [01:11:00] find a functional neurologist near you. there's also the last one, you know, no, um, you know, no financial connection is also that the Kerrigan Institute website is a tremendous source, um, and resource for you to be able to look up and not only learn a little bit more about functional neurology, but not just, and patients.

But also if you're a provider, want to get a little bit more information on courses or what I can do and how can you learn a little bit more about I've movements, you know, they're incredible, but honestly, I mean, 24 seven, if you ever want to reach out to me, emails, uh, some of the easier ways, and I always open to have a conversation about, you know, would you, Um, be an appropriate patient of mine.

can I help you find a neurologist near you? It'd be more than, uh, helpful to be an advocate for that because, I think one of the things is, you know, service back to humankind is, again, as Dr. Kerrig always said, so I think we should always live by that. So if anything is, never stuck or you have a question, need a resource, Always happy to be there.

Joey: Really appreciate it. Uh, Dr. Paul, you're the man. It's been great learning from you and I'm excited to see where your practices, your careers, all the companies you're [01:12:00] involved with goes. And, um, I know there's really amazing things ahead. So I'm glad that you're able to come on and speak to the, our audience and we're better for it.

So thank you so much. I wanted to. Give you the final word. I'm just curious what, uh, final advice or encouragement you give to everyone listening, especially, you know, young people who come from broken families and are maybe feeling broken and stuck in life, what's, what's your final advice?

Dr. Paul: Final advice and I could speak, uh, you know, truthfully on this one is you're not alone, you know, quite a lot of times that you feel as though you're stuck and you know, you're in the, you know, woe is me, it's, it can't, it's always going to be this way.

It's never going to change. Um, you realize a lot of times that the people around you that you thought either didn't care so much or maybe didn't quite know. A lot of times they're great resources, but maybe you can't always find that professional. Maybe you reached out to, um, you know, a therapist, originally a physician didn't work well.

That doesn't mean that it's always that way. And it doesn't always necessarily mean that I'm the right fit for you. I mean, if you don't like to hear things in a, [01:13:00] you know, Canadian accent, I'm probably not the person for you. But if you reach out and you realize that there's a lot of people that are resources, a lot of times they're closer to you than you realize, and they also went through similar things that they don't even share.

And they found resources that they clip close to the vest that once you really get to talking, you realize you have a lot more in common than you realize. And you're going to be able to see those resources come to fruition pretty quickly. So I promise you're not only are you not alone, um, but there's also a lot more hope available rather quickly.

then you realize, you know, from. Uh, not only functional neurology, trauma therapy, functional medicine, and any of the classic avenues, um, honestly, this podcast, you know, looking back, you have, you know, a tremendous resource here that if you look at the divorce rates, the rates of, you know, failed jobs, and, you know, the marriages, the changes in economy, you know, there's, there's a lot of struggles out there.

There's a lot of resources available to you right now. Take full [01:14:00] advantage of them and, um, you know, never be afraid to reach out. that's how I would end it after a truthful thank you for for allowing me to come on. Um, and also more so thank you for all you do in creating this and, you know, starting what was what you thought was going to be sort of one environment and realizing you the outreach that you have as a great example, you're reaching a tremendous vast audience that you thought was going to be this one subset population.

Now you're out doing that. So, you know, thank you for all you do and bringing this together as this resource.

Joey: If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more.

And all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma you've experienced in your family and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. Life. And so if you want to view all the resources [01:15:00] that we offer for yourself, or maybe someone that, you know, you can just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Feel free to even just take 30 seconds now to message them. I promise you, they will be so grateful that you did. In closing, always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#126: Former Porn Actress: Over 90% of People in Porn are from Broken Families | Bree Solstad

Pending! Stay tuned.

Bree Solstad went from being a top-selling porn actress to quitting her job and completely turning her life around. That transformation started because of a trip to Italy. 

In this episode, Bree Solstad tells us about that and answers questions like:

• What led you to pornography in the first place?

• How did your broken family and abandonment from your father play into that?

• What percentage of performers in porn come from divorced or broken families? It’ll shock you

• What has helped you begin to heal your wounds? 

• What would you say to people who believe that porn is harmful and not wrong?

Visit Bree Solstad’s Etsy shop, Ave Maria Every Day

Follow Bree on X (former Twitter) and Instagram 

Listen to the Healing Sexual Brokenness series

For Men: Buy the Book: Forged: 33 Days Toward Freedom by Jason Evert and Matt Fradd

For Women: Join a Magdala Ministries group

Watch Sound of Freedom

Visit FightTheNewDrug.org

Visit BlackstoneFilms.co

For help with suicidal thoughts or behaviors, call or text 988, or go here.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

  [00:00:00] We normally don't start episodes like this, but I wanted to issue a little bit of a trigger warning because this episode does contain mature content. And so if you're listening around other people, especially kids, uh, we definitely recommend putting in earphones. But with that, my guest today went from being a top selling porn actress to quitting her job and completely turning around her life.

Her amazing transformation started on a trip to Italy. And so in this episode, she tells us all about that and answers questions like, What led you to pornography in the first place? How did your broken family and the abandonment from your father play into that decision? What, what percentage would you say of people in the porn industry come from divorce and broken families?

You're going to be shocked by her answer. Uh, what has helped you to begin to heal yourself? Your wounds heal your brokenness. Do you ever feel tempted to go back into that life? And what advice would you give to a girl who's maybe considering getting into pornography or feel stuck in it? And then finally, what would you say to people who believe that porn is not harmful or wrong?

Such an [00:01:00] inspiring story. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken family. So you can break that cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 126. We're so happy that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing.

We've heard a lot of great feedback. One listener said this, I was brought to tears with your podcast. I agree. There are no resources out there for kids of divorced parents. My parents had no specific reason for their divorce, but now that I'm about 30, I'm looking back and seeing how huge of an impact this has had.

on my life. Love that this leans into Christian principles. Some good came out of my story, too. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's [00:02:00] episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. In a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of Millennials said video is their top content choice.

It's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that? Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know, you need to create video content, but there's so many barriers to doing it. Like you don't know how, you don't know who to hire.

You don't have the time to learn and so on. And can kind of leave you feeling, uh, Overwhelmed to the point where you just kind of give up on the idea and go back to what you know, what's comfortable, but that's where Blackstone Films can help you. They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel.

They can create things like trailers, promo videos and commercials, uh, social media, videos, documentaries, fundraising videos, uh, and even courses. We actually produced two courses with them, two video courses, and we just had an excellent experience. And so whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about helping you not just create video content, [00:03:00] but create a clear win for your business or ministry, such as fundraise for your ministry, sell a course, get leads for your business, get students to sign up for your school, promote your event, and so much more.

Blackstone has reached millions around the globe with their videos, and they can help you too. And so if you want to view their past projects and the services that they offer, just contact them. Uh, go to Blackstonefilms. co, not com. Again, that's Blackstonefilms. co or just click on the link in the show notes.

My guest today is Bree Solstad. After a past full of regrets, she converted to Christianity. She was a former Top selling porn actress and producer who had a radical conversion to Christ that began in the Catholic churches of Italy. After having a profound experience at the tomb of St. Clair of Assisi, Bree Solstad’s sinful life began to come to an end.

Bree quit all pornography, gave up her income, changed her life, and officially joined the Catholic church at [00:04:00] Easter in 2024. Bree now handcrafts one of a kind, in person, porn. heirloom quality, rosaries, and other Christian jewelry on a humble little Etsy shop called Ave Maria every day. We'll put the link in the show notes for you guys.

Bri is known on Twitter and Instagram as Miss B converted and has been utilizing her rapidly growing social media presence to share her growing faith and convince others to turn away from the plague of pornography. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm really glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind, even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this.

this episode and for even Christians listening who, who might object to some of what Bree believes. Again, my challenge is just to listen with an open mind too. And I think, you know, kind of rejoice or revel in the fact that she completely turned her life around. With that, here's my chat [00:05:00] with Bree. Bree, so good to have you.

Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's, uh, just an honor to be here. I'm so excited to just dive into your story because your transformation is just incredible. I'm so inspired by it and I love, you know, hearing more about that from anyone who's had any sort of story like yours. And so I want to get to that.

But before we get there, I'd like to start with your former life. What led you to pornography and sex work? Well, honestly, I've been trying to pinpoint like, what is the linchpin in my life that, you know, put me on this path? And I'm still not really sure exactly what it was. I know a lot of it has to do with the fact that I was raised with a single mother as an only child.

I didn't really have the dynamic of both people in my life, and that really trickled into so much. I think just having these, you know, These thoughts, maybe even in the back of my mind, my [00:06:00] subconscious of like feelings of abandonment that, you know, my father didn't want me. That sort of thing. And then really it was just the priorities in my life.

I never made God my number one priority, but I also never made myself my number one priority. Like I never really considered much of my own self worth. And from there it just spiraled out of control, you know, and I look back and it's almost like I was telling myself, this is how every 20, you know, 20 year old lives, you know, going from meaningless job to meaningless job and then just partying all the time, um, being reckless, being promiscuous.

And really, I think that a great deal of what contributed to my abuse of alcohol, my abuse of my body, my degradation, my feelings of not being worthy, I think really stemmed from when I went away to college. I [00:07:00] suddenly felt this newfound freedom, if you will, and not freedom that you think like, oh, I'm away from home and I get to make my own decisions.

No. My whole life being with a single parent, only child, my whole life was that kind of freedom where I always made my own decisions. I was extremely independent. I had to be. My mother worked all the time. I was alone all the time. I was a latchkey kid. That's why I really like crafts and animals and plants.

Like those are things that you can do by yourself. And then when I went away to school, it was suddenly like, I don't have to be the other adult in the And I didn't even realize any of this until later. You know, it was just ingrained in me and I suddenly was free to make my own decisions, but free in a way where I had this safety net of, you know, I live in a dorm room.

There are other people who are partying, uh, like they're skipping class. It seems like this could be okay for me. And this is lots of fun, you know, just having no boundaries, no [00:08:00] limits. It seemed like, like I was just really, really happy when I truly wasn't. No, it's so good. Thanks for sharing all that. And it's so fascinating.

You know, our audiences, you know, comes from, you know, broken families and there's so many wounds there. But one of the things I learned from Dr. Bob Schutz is that at the root of every wound really is a deprivation of love. And so, And so it's only natural that we would seek some form of love, even if it's not real, to fill that void.

And, you know, I think that the partying, like the seeming acceptance by the group of friends, because I fell into that when I was younger too, it feels good. It's appealing. We feel like we belong. And especially for people like us who maybe didn't feel like we belonged even in our own families because they were so broken, it can be really attractive to kind of go Go into that lifestyle.

And so, yeah, this whole thing of coming from a broken family, it's so interesting how so many of us, you know, kind of look for love in all the wrong places. And then we even, and I know we're going to get more into this, but we even sexualize our pain. We [00:09:00] sexualize what we dealt with. One of the fascinating statistics on this comes from Dr.

Patrick Carnes. I've mentioned this on the show before. He's a expert on sexual addiction, and he found that 87 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction or compulsion come from a broken family. Almost 90%. Which is just like, it's mind blowing, but like you said, it does make sense. So it's not surprising.

Like, I think when I look at my, um, younger self and, you know, when I hear your story, it's like, it makes sense. Like, it makes sense given what you've been through. It's not okay, but it makes sense given what you've been through. And, I mean, like I said, I don't know what the exact linchpin is and, you know, my mother raised me in the best way that she could, but there was definitely something lacking.

So then when this new opportunity came about, I just jumped on it. Like the idea of, you know, working from home and making a bunch of money and, and it just happens to be pornography, but you know, whatever. That was kind of, um, where my morals were at that point in my life. Because you had kind of walked down that path [00:10:00] of you know partying and pleasure seeking And it really kind of led you to a point that it almost was like a Not too big of a jump at that point.

Is that right? Yeah, so it really just Accumulated it began in college and then continued accumulating this addiction or this lifestyle Which actually then ultimately led to an addiction to alcohol or you know The alcohol addiction is always in there somewhere, but it was like the catalyst that then drove me to admitting my alcoholism.

Um, I mean, there's so many things in my life that we could unpack. Like I didn't even, I'm just, you know, throwing this on you now that, Oh yeah, I'm also a recovering alcoholic. Um, but, um, but that doesn't really have much to do with my conversion story. So I haven't really mentioned that. But one thing I want to tell you specifically that I haven't told anybody else when I was in college, I was engaged and participated when I went to class, but partying and especially drinking and sleeping [00:11:00] around.

We're my number one priorities to the point where, even though I loved going to class, I loved learning, I loved studying environmental science was my major partying, just took over everything else so that like I couldn't get up. I was too hungover to go to class. So then, and then I started skipping class and then more and more and more, and it just became more and more acceptable.

And the thing that I'd like to tell you and your listeners is that one thing I'm truly ashamed of is I went to a Lutheran university and I got a scholarship there from my church. These people, this elderly couple, they spent their retirement fund sending me to college and I completely wasted that opportunity and that's one of the things that, you know, I've, I've really struggled with that decision that I made and the, the way that I just completely wasted not only like my time, my energy, [00:12:00] but their money also.

It's a decision that. I would urge others to take seriously. If you're given an opportunity like that, don't waste it. Yeah, no. Thanks for sharing that too, and No, your transformation is so beautiful. We'll get to that shortly, but it makes so much sense again Everything that you went through kind of where you landed and I remember talking to in another interview Jay Stringer Who's this awesome author and therapist?

He was talking about this whole experience of coming from you know, a broken family and enduring trauma like you did and yeah He says the first experience often is one of fragmentation where we just feel really broken. We feel like our life is not cohesive It's not integrated. It's just so broken Broken into pieces and such a mess, really, to put it in simple terms.

And that usually leads us to seek out some form of numbing ourselves because the pain is too much to bear. And so, you know, like you said, in your story, it was alcohol, it was partying, it was sex, all that stuff. And my story was principally, you know, pornography and other sexual sins. Um, it was just like, I needed something to numb the pain.

That was my way of coping. [00:13:00] Precisely. Getting out of this reality here and now. Like there was an easier, it was an escape. It was a way to get away from just the difficulties of facing, you know, my parents splitting apart, just all the drama and sadness that came with that. And, um, and then that leads to, so again, we started with fragmentation, that brokenness, then we led to numbing, which looks different for different people, and then finally you kind of end up in isolation where it's just this intense loneliness where like, man, I regret what I've done, but I'm still feeling the pain.

And I feel like no one's there for me. There's no one there to like, as Jay Singer says, like, catch my tears, to hold my face, to see me like go through this and just love me through it. And so then we get in the cycle, we then feel more broken and fragmented. We then need to know more and then we'd feel a bit more isolated.

And then we just go down into this endless pit. Does that seem to describe your story? Yeah. Definitely in terms of my addictions, in terms of my bad decisions, but also in terms of producing [00:14:00] pornography where like it's, it's not an addiction. Um, it's not something for which like women need a support group, but it can be very isolating.

It can be, You know, intoxicating and you can easily feel trapped. I remember, you know, when I considered giving up this life, this career, I was really scared. I was really nervous about the money, but then I started thinking, okay, well let's consider, you know, you don't have to go on these extravagant trips or buy these.

ridiculously overpriced shoes anymore. That's perfectly fine. I'm willing to give up all that because of, you know, the happiness that I found within myself and the relationship that I have with God now. But let's even, let's take all of that out of the equation and say that, okay, you can get like a, just an average job, you know, like at a garden center or something.

That'd be fun, fruitful, pun intended, but who's going to hire you? Like, what are you going to write on the application? Like, forget about seeming professional and showing up with a resume. Okay. [00:15:00] Like, even if you're just going to pencil in on some application, they've Xeroxed for you. What are you going to say?

There's nothing you can't, you can't even use some flowery euphemism, like, you know, artistic entertainer, or like, that's just going to lead to more questions and you're trapped because you feel like you've done this for so long that you don't know how to do anything else. And then, you know, tragically, a lot of people in this industry also feel like they've done this for so long and it kind of, and it weighs on them and it seeps into their subconscious to the point where then they don't feel like they're worthy of doing anything else.

Like, this is not only all that they can do, but this is all that they can do. They're trapped in so many different ways. And I think that addiction is similar, but both, you know, are about reexamining your priorities, reexamining your life, and asking yourself, like, is this really what I want? Is this really, you know, helpful to me?

And then also being honest with yourself, which is hard to do when you're in the throes of addiction, especially. How many [00:16:00] years did you end up doing pornography for? And I'm curious, like, were there regular intervals where you felt like, man, I don't know if I should be doing this. I need to get out of it.

I was in the industry for just under 10 years and honestly, no, it really wasn't until I started going to church regularly that I even considered leaving the industry. That is something that I think will come in time. I'm still like, Unpacking a lot of things that have gone on in my life and and it's kind of funny It's like almost a timeline of like things that I regret and they come up almost in the same Timeline that they occurred or that I did them and I think I'm not quite to the point where I'm ready to really examine the effects of what I did through pornography because at the time I know that Like, now, I, I regret what I did, but at the time, I didn't consider that it was wrong at all.[00:17:00]

I would use my money for myself, but also, like, I was able to, you know, buy my mom really extravagant Mother's Day gifts, or, you know, send my godmother a bouquet for Mother's Day. The re It's funny, I mention this now, because it was just recently Mother's Day, and I remember, and like, now, I'm like, I don't have enough money to send them these big, huge bouquets anymore.

But that's okay, you know? And my godmother doesn't know. But my mom understands that I'm not making as much money anymore. And it's not like they would expect these things. But it's just, it's also kind of ridiculously humorous to think that I was buying these Mother's Day bouquets for these women in my life with the money that I made from pornography.

And I never considered that it was ridiculous. I never considered that my life was just kind of ridiculous, like, full of sin, full of pride, full of vanity, and full of loneliness, full of hopelessness. [00:18:00] You feel trapped in so many different ways, and this is yet another way. Like, you feel trapped mentally, because your mind is telling you one thing, but also telling you a different thing.

And it's so easy to justify. I know this from my addictions with alcohol, as well as, like, all the detrimental things that I did throughout my career in pornography. It's so easy to justify that this is fine. Or even just, I won't think about it now. I'll think about it tomorrow. And just move on. But I urge, I urge people not to do that.

I urge people, really, to just take an examination of your consciousness. Take an examination of your feelings, also. That's something that I really didn't do enough. And be honest with yourself. Are you actually happy? And I read this in a self help book once, and the book itself wasn't really that good. I don't even remember the title of it, but there's one part that was really good, and it said something like, ask yourself, what would my life look like if I stopped drinking?

If I stopped producing pornography? If I stopped [00:19:00] watching pornography? And then really think about that. And again, it's easy to lie to yourself. But I think that most people would say that their lives look so much better without their addiction, without this overwhelming sin. And we're, we're all sinners continually all the time.

Um, some more than others, but that's not a reason to continue doing it. That's not a justification. You're not alone, but at the same time, like expect more from yourself. You know try to do better. I'm not really sure what the question was. Yeah. No. No, I love that advice. No, that's so good Yeah No I love that advice because I think you're right a lot of people and perhaps this is what you were going through when you're in The midst of this is we kind of get in this autopilot Mode in life or survival mode like we get these opportunities in life We kind of walk through those doors and then our life is the way it is and we kind of have this feeling that it's Always just gonna be this way And we don't think we can really grow or improve and our life can get better.

And so we just kind of continue on that path. Because change [00:20:00] is hard. Transforming is hard. You know, it's not easy to go from being, you know, out of shape to getting into really good shape. It's not easy to, you know, go from, you know, Maybe not having skills that are, can be paid a lot of money to getting those skills to being paid a lot of money.

Not to say that's like, needs to be a goal for everyone, but just giving it as an example. And so, um, it's hard and it's a lot easier, it's a lot more comfortable not to do that. And like, you know, you said before too, there's this question of like, worth. It's like, well, You know, I, even if I maybe could pull that off, which I don't really think I could, you know, I'm really, I'm not worth it.

I'm, I'm not someone who, you know, people would look at and say like, Oh yeah, they're definitely going to be able to do that and make it. And they're definitely, you know, have a lot of confidence and dignity or whatever we want to call it. So I think it makes so much sense. And the thing you said about justifying too, it's a fascinating in, uh, when you build a home.

Um, I guess this is in like, um, architecture and in carpentry when a wall is crooked, like, let's say one of the studs is like, you know, the wall is kind of leaning over the, the action of straightening it [00:21:00] as justifying it. And so in life, like we only feel the need to justify things that aren't like, uh, on the straight and narrow.

And so, like you were saying, I think that's a good, a little litmus test too, for things. It's like, Do you feel the need to justify the way you're living your life right now? Do you feel the need to, you know, say that it's okay when in reality it might not be? And so I think that there's so many lessons in what you said.

And the final thing I was going to say was, when it comes to the shift out of that industry, my goodness, how scary. Like seriously, I think that that can't be overstated. It's like, this is literally, especially since that was pretty much after college onward, that was what you knew that was your job, that was your skill set.

And so going on to do something out, you're truly just starting from zero in a lot of ways, you know, maybe there's some, Lessons and virtues that you already had baked into you that you can use but my goodness that is scary I've heard it similar with like, you know, like Protestant pastors who convert to Catholicism just as one example You know They literally have been running a church their livelihood comes from that their friendships like their family even [00:22:00] and then they you know convert to Catholicism, let's say.

And then it's like, well, now I don't have a job. I might not even have a family. I don't have a church. Like, it's like devastating. So there are those sorts of careers that I think it'd be really, really difficult to shift out of. So yeah. Any thoughts on that before we continue on? Well, it's especially frustrating for me because in the industry that I was, I wasn't just a performer.

I was a producer. Like my favorite thing was editing videos and doing crazy things with like green screen and special effects and that sort of thing. I took a class at a community college for these things and got really into it and I'm really good at it and it's lots of fun. But that's another frustrating element is like when I was Going through my conversion, I was watching a lot of videos online and I was thinking, well, maybe like for the, for example, like the Catholic hippie, she sometimes plugs rosaries, like, um, promotes them, people who sell them.

So I thought, [00:23:00] And we'll get into that, but I now sell rosaries and um, I thought, okay, maybe we could do an exchange like she could promote my rosary business and I could edit her videos for her. And then I was like, I can't send her any of my work. What am I going to do? Like, just, okay, pretend like I'm wearing like all my clothes and that I'm saying things that are completely different and tell me what you think.

Like, that's not going to work. Can't do that, yeah. I can't expose this woman to what I did. And so that, yeah, that's another frustrating thing is, I mean, I think you do pick up some skills that are like, that could be. beneficial in the real world. But again, you, you can't use them. You can't apply them to anything because of your past.

Yeah. Okay. No, I get that. You, it's hard. You can't show any sort of like track record cause you want to leave that life behind and yeah, totally makes sense. And thanks for sharing all of that. And I want to go back to your family situation. I'm just curious, um, Yeah, just over the years, the struggles and kind of brokenness, [00:24:00] wounds you've, you've dealt with when it comes to just the fact that your dad was absent from your life.

You mentioned abandonment and things like that. Um, yeah, just curious if you had anything to add on top of what we've already talked about when it comes to just how that experience contributed to this life and yeah, how hard that was too. I think that a lot of my story, it's hard for me to say that I completely regret everything because everything led me to where I am now.

And to have such a great appreciation for my mindset, for the love that I feel for myself, for others, It's from adversity that these things came about, but really what I think, what I think about a lot is another person's life, and how great it would be if they could skip all of that. And I think that for me coming, like being, coming from my situation, my home life, there weren't all that many opportunities.

to [00:25:00] better my situation. But I think that being around people who do have, you know, a secure home life, who do have confidence in themselves, who think highly of themselves, who, who have God in their life. I think that that's something that's really beneficial. And also, just not feeling so alone. I know that, I mean, you were, in some cases, abandoned.

Like, in a lot of cases, you know, I think that it's harder sometimes, maybe if you're used to having a father figure or both parents, and then suddenly there's this shift and there's this change, and like, what did I do, what did I, But for me, I never knew my father. So, and he wasn't somebody who my mother respected.

Uh, we actually referred to him as the sperm donor as I was growing up. And it was kind of like a little joke. But I now realize that even that little joke has had an effect on how I view men. How I viewed relationships. How I viewed [00:26:00] intimacy, like all these things have come about because I was raised in a single parent home and I'm not sure that they, that that, I mean, I know that that's not the only factor, but if you're in that sort of situation, like don't be afraid to ask for help.

With your child and, or, you know, or your own life and bringing more faith and more goodness into your life. I think that, that, that always helps. I couldn't agree more. For me, the kind of pivots in my life, the times where I was able to kind of turn a corner, break through, whatever you want to call it, came one when I got new friends.

You know, I've heard your friends are like an elevator. They either take you up or take you down. And the friends I was hanging around with, they were certainly taking me down. They were like my sports buddies and I loved them, you know, and I still look back on them. I don't like hate them by any means. I think that they came from really broken situations too.

And they were just like caught up in this culture that was like, you know, into pornography. They were into like, we were so young too. Like we're like 11. year old [00:27:00] kids, you know, and, and that was my, you know, that was the time I was exposed to pornography. And so 11, 12, 13 year old kids, and just kind of sucked up by this culture.

And for me, for some reason, I always knew that I wanted to be happy. And I knew that that wasn't making me happy. I knew that it was working to numb pain, that it was kind of an escape, like we discussed, but I knew it wasn't ultimately making me happy. And so I met these new friends, and these new friends were like, really happy people, like not fake happy, but like genuinely joyful people.

And I was like, whatever it is you have, like, I just want that. And I noticed like when I spent more time with them, I was happier. And when I spent more time with my sports buddies, I was more miserable. And so I just started spending more time with them. And I was honestly like, I was afraid for them to know kind of like the real me.

So I would just kind of fake it till I made it. And so, you know, I, I certainly just started to adopt their life. And, and that like really, really helped. And those friends were these. Christians, Catholic Christians, who were really, you know, on fire for their faith, and they were, you know, just, just like good people.

And, uh, so anyway, I started to be like them, [00:28:00] to build virtue, to pray, to just learn my faith, seek out God's plan for my life, all that stuff. And, and that really, really helped. But the other thing I was going to say, just to second what you said about, um, maybe speaking to parents or young people who are coming from broken families, um, the mentors in your life can fill the void of a father who abandoned you.

And it's never going to fill it in a perfect way. Like you're never going to be able to go find another man in your life. Who's going to perfectly be your dad. Like you only have one biological father. And when that's person's ripped from your life, for whatever reason, it's hard, you know, it leaves a wound.

Um, but my goodness, have I experienced so much healing through just the men in my life who've kind of taken me under their wing, who mentored me, who've guided me through the challenges that I face, who've really affirmed me, just showing me that, you know, especially when I thought maybe I was worthless or You know, that I thought whatever struggles I was dealing with at the time were kind of, they defined me.

They would come in and say, no, no, no, you're so much more than that. And they would just affirm me, you know, and who I am. So anyway, that, that was like really helpful for me too. So just, I just love the advice you said. And I think it's so important to surround [00:29:00] yourself with good people, both in terms of people beside you, your friends, but also people ahead of you who are mentors, who can kind of show you like, you know, what, How you need to live.

It's so, so valuable, especially if you didn't have that in your family. Yeah, I agree. Definitely. I want to, um, get to your transformation more, but I'm just curious. I wanted your opinion on this. If you had to guess, what percentage of people in sex work and pornography do you think come from divorced and broken families?

Meaning, you know, their parents were divorced or they had a really dysfunctional home life. I'd say probably, like, 95%. At least in the 90s. Yeah, I think that it takes a certain kind of person to set aside what society deems as acceptable and be somebody completely different and I think that a lot of you know It's something I say a lot when like in regards to really horrible people monsters aren't born They're created so and I think that that can be said for for, you know, a lot of [00:30:00] different things that plague us.

They're not something that, that we're born with. They're something that has accumulated because of, you know, something that happened or something that we did. And I think that, you know, most of the women who are in this industry, okay, well, I should speak to what I know. For me and for the friends that I had, We were, like, kind of caring people, and um, nice women, and, I mean, I don't, I don't think I was a bad person, but the work that I did, and without going into too much detail, the meaner I was, the more they liked it, and the more they would pay me.

So then, it's kind of like, um, I can't remember his name, the scientist who rang the bell. Um, and the dog slobbered and Pavlov Pavlov. Yes. Thank you. You know, it's kind of like something that you can't help But then actually start to become this person who they want you to be Because [00:31:00] the more selfish, the more egotistical, the more bratty, the more vain I was, the more, like, offensive I was, or, um, narcissistic, especially, like, throwing other people under the bus for my own gain, the more that I would, you know, Be acclaimed, not just by clients either, but also other women in the industry.

And so you're in that, you know, continuously spinning wheel. You're eventually going to start to feel these ways and you're going to start to think this. And, and I think that's something to be. Cognizant of but also just to know that these sort of things can happen to you that within you know the things that you surround yourself with those sports friends or you know people who are really into Fancy shoes and that's what will form who you are and and I think it's important to remember that really Couldn't agree more.

And thanks for going into that. I think it's important to [00:32:00] mention, I know some people kind of tiptoe around these subjects of like pornography, but I think it's important we talk about it because there's so many lessons in your story and what you were saying. And when it comes to like, just to push into that a little bit, um, when it comes to, The whole, how our sexuality becomes so distorted and perverted, like the deeper we get down that path.

It's so, it's fascinating, it's sad, it's really interesting to kind of think about and study. I know Jay Stringer, who I mentioned, um, in episode 102, if you guys want to check that out, he has so much insight into this. He studied 4, 000 people who struggle with sexual addictions or compulsions, and he just really went deep into it.

And one of the things that he found is like, my goodness, your sexual desires, your fantasies, even he, they even looked at pornography searches, um, in their study. They say so much about the ways in which you were harmed, the trauma you endured, like, it's insane. They're able to look at someone's pornography searches or the, you know, fantasies that they have, and they're able to connect that with specific traumas they'd had in their life.

For example, it's like, oh, your mom was really controlling, and this [00:33:00] correlates with this sort of genre of pornography that you go after. It's so fascinating. So that was, I think it's really important. So one of the things that I learned from him is that there's so much underneath the surface that a lot of people don't think about that maybe you intuitively know that when it comes to anger and power and pornography.

Like, there's so much there that he, you know, he explained it well in the episode, and I'm not going to do nearly as good of a job, but he was basically saying that there's so much anger that we feel as humans for so many reasons, right? And anger is just this response that we feel at a real or perceived injustice.

So there might be something in our life, especially as it relates to the sexes, which is really interesting. So it's like if men Uh, you know, if these important men in your life treated you this way, or these important women in your life, like your mom, or girlfriend, or wife, treated you this way, then you might tend to think of all women that way.

And then therefore, um, you know, like, for example, this is just an example, if you had, you know, a mother who was really controlling and belittling, you might seek pornography or, you know, fantasies [00:34:00] that put you in a position of power over women. Um, because there's a lot of, maybe, untapped anger there that, you know, It gives you, you know, pornography becomes kind of an outlet to reverse that, uh, misery that you're living through.

And so anyway, he does a better job explaining it than I could. And his book is awesome, Unwanted, by the way, um, recommend people look, check that out. We'll, we'll link to it in the show notes, but yeah, so, so everything you're saying makes so much sense to me that, um, you know, kind of the deeper you go into that world of like perversion and twisting what's supposed to be really beautiful, good gift to our sexuality, the, the kind of more ravenous, almost an animal like that we become.

Definitely. And I was taught that, I mean, my mother really impressed upon me that the act of sex was making love. And it was something that you did between a man and a woman that you love and you're committed. And then I think that it just, once, that was when I was really little. And then once I got older, I think it just kind of, it was one of those things that like, Oh yeah, like, You know, that's just a, maybe like an [00:35:00] old wives tale or like something that your mom tells you when you're growing up, but it's not really true.

Um, like look at, you know, just turn on the TV, there's two people having sex. Like, it could be anything. And, uh, it's not, I mean we see it everywhere. And I think that not only the, like the beauty and the sanctity of sex and the act of sex, has completely been erased from our society. But now the pornography and the pornification of sex is just becoming more and more acceptable within our society.

And, um, and it's tricky. Absolutely. No. And I, I, I love that distinction and that comparison of like, you know, it's not that, you know, the world doesn't glorify sex. It really degrades it. It really makes this like, into like subhuman animalistic thing where like you said, it's really meant to be making love.

And it becomes this really, again, degraded thing that I think we all know that we want better [00:36:00] than that, but maybe we think that it's not even possible to have something better than that. And so, no, so many good lessons in there. So thank you for going into all that. I do want to transition into your story and into your, um, transformation.

It's just incredibly beautiful. What was it that, yes, sparked that exit from pornography and ultimately your conversion? Well, it started with a tragedy, um, like all great stories. Something happened about three years ago that ultimately it was just a freak accident and it was a horrible occurrence, but it's something that has plagued me and filled me with guilt and sorrow and depression.

And it's my greatest grief. And I have been in therapy for the past three years because of it. And it's slowly, it was slowly getting a little bit better, but still my own sense of guilt. And again, also self worth and even just desire to live my life [00:37:00] was in question. And after this, I, I was fully committed to killing myself and it wasn't.

It wasn't even a thought. I was like, yep, that's what I'm doing tomorrow morning. I'm going to do this, this, this, and this. And, um, by the grace of God, my husband wouldn't leave me alone and he, he stayed with me for like two weeks pretty much. He took time off work. So, um, but none of these things helped.

This was my fault. It was my doing and, and now my life is over because of this. Then, last spring, I had an opportunity to go to Italy. My mother in law actually paid for tickets for all of us to go. And, I was really excited about that, of course, obviously. Uh, we took like six months to prepare. I got, you know, Italian in 40 minutes a day.

And, but most of the preparation that I did was really about, the things that I wanted to see, the artwork there. And when you're in Italy, um, the hub of the greatest artwork of all of Western [00:38:00] civilization, in my opinion, the greatest art is in the churches, churches, basilicas. We visited dozens, uh, I want to say probably like over 50, but that was like our main focus was going to these churches.

And initially it was just for the artwork, you know, nothing religious, you know, I'm not Catholic, but at the same time I was like, well, I kinda, I want to get into it though. You know, I want to be like when in Rome, you do as the Romans do. So we're visiting these churches, they're Catholic churches. And I know that Catholics wear a veil when they go into a church just as a form of respect.

So. I figure, all right, I gotta, I gotta try this. I'll wear a veil, you know, have fun. I'll be Catholic. Um, so we go and every time outside of a church, even just like a tiny little Basilica, I put on my veil, then I start to, I start to kneel and cross myself when I go in again, just like, look at how funny am I, you know, I'm Catholic.

Um, and just kind of getting a kick out of it. [00:39:00] And then. And, like, the artwork is incredible, it's amazing, it really is. But then, something inside of me started to change a little bit, where instead of just appreciating the artwork for what it was, or instead of veiling and crossing myself just because that's what we did, I started getting into it.

Like, wow, this art is beautiful, but, like, look at the way that, um, Jesus has his arm around Mary, like, in, in this fresco. Or look at the way that this person's, you know. Intimating this sort of reaction and I started really like being moved and touched and Appreciating the artwork for the theology as well as just its beauty and then I started like it was almost like a fake it Till you make it kind of thing where I was crossing myself initially just because that's what they do But and then I started like actually saying the words looking up at the crucifix when I did so acknowledging the crucifix And, but still, at this point, remember, I have this intense tragedy that's weighing on my shoulders, and I, when this [00:40:00] occurred, I had tried praying to God, and I tried, you know, like I had touched on before, I was raised Lutheran, but completely fell away from the church ever since college.

God's been pretty much non existent in my life. But you better believe that as soon as this tragedy occurs, like, He's my number one, you know, concern, and I'm like, Hey. You know, I'm praying now, so you gotta listen to me. Like, I haven't prayed or talked to you or done anything beneficial in the last 20 years, but now I need something, and I need something that I've never needed before in my entire life, and I expect you to do this now.

And I prayed so hard that night that I can still remember, like, my knuckles were white because I was squeezing my fingers so hard, and he didn't do anything, or so I thought. Jesus didn't respond to me at all that evening, and so, I was done with him completely. Like what little amount of relationship that we had was completely over.

So this affected me when I was in Italy, even just going into churches. Initially, like I said, it was, it was for the artwork. So it wasn't that big a deal. But [00:41:00] then when I started crossing myself, when I started really looking at the theology of the pictures, I was like, okay, I I'm in God's house and I, I still don't want to talk to God.

I don't, I don't have anything to say to him. And like, even just thinking about talking to God made me like start to tear up. But in these churches and basilicas in Italy, in addition to the crucifix, you could always find Mary somewhere. And I started going to her, like, physically, literally, I would, you know, kind of walk around.

Because she wasn't always right there, present. Like, sometimes she was in, like, a smaller alcove. Or, in Italy, you probably remember the edicolas. They're the frescoes that are on the street corners and, like, on just, like, random sides of buildings and stuff like that. And it's, it's always Mary illuminated.

And she was just everywhere. And And I started noticing her and I started thinking that, okay, this is kind of weird. Like, why are you, you stalking me basically. Um, [00:42:00] and And then I thought, I thought about her and her life and what she went through, and I thought about how she had this intense tragedy, even greater than my own, where she went through something similar where it was completely out of her hands and her son was put upon a cross, tortured, died a really awful death.

And she went through all of this with grace and with dignity. And, and that was. That's what helped me to be able to be in a house of God, to be able to even consider talking to God, because I was able to talk to Mary. Mary is, she was born without sin, and she is the mother of God, but she's still human.

And she was the one who asked Jesus, kind of, at the wedding of Cana, she was the one who said, Hey, these people don't have any more wine, and I need you to help them. They're really good friends. I really don't want them to be embarrassed. And he said, It's not my time yet. But he did it anyway because [00:43:00] she asked.

And that was, I kind of think of that as like, that's kind of what started the ball rolling that ultimately got him on the cross. He said it wasn't his time, but she said, please. And so in a way, I like to think of that. Mary didn't really know what she was asking. She didn't know that, okay, if you do this, then you're going to be crucified sooner than later.

Um, I'm not saying that, but in a way I think that she. She knew what was going to happen. She knew that she was going to have these swords pierce her heart, and yet she continued forward, and she lived her life with grace and beauty. And she was a huge part of my conversion process, and then, and just my healing, really.

And being able to talk to God again, but it doesn't end there. Um, so from there we went to Assisi, um, because St. Francis is amazing, awesome. And like I've told you [00:44:00] before, I. Animals have always been a big part of my life, and even non Catholics know about St. Francis. I think he's like the gateway drug to Catholicism, or like the gateway saint almost.

Where it's like, even secular people are like, yeah, St. Francis! It's cool, he's in a dog. Um, and that's how I was, I'll admit it. Went to Assisi primarily just for St. Francis, but then knew about St. Clair, his female counterpart, just from, again, I did a bunch of research before going there and so I learned about their story.

Um, but she's like a footnote, you know, in his story. As it turns out, she was really the shining hero of my story. And I remember we, okay, we went to a CC. We went and, and looked at all these amazing things and all these different historical places where history was made. And we visited St. Claire's tomb and not really thinking much about it.

I still remember standing in [00:45:00] line and, um, like telling other people to they were talking loudly and you're not supposed to talk loudly and you're supposed to be respectful. It wasn't like I was expecting anything at all. I was just coming, you know. I had an opportunity to kneel in front of her tomb and so I'm gonna do it.

I kneel in front of her tomb, I close my eyes and I, I had a vision of her. I'm not saying that I'm some sort of mystic or that like she appeared in front of me or anything. Yes, my eyes were closed, but I could see her distinctly right in front of me. She was wearing this cream colored, like, satin gown, which is weird, too.

Um, I've really, like, gone over every detail in my mind because I want to make sure that this is, this is legit. I don't, I don't want to be telling a story where like, actually it's just some sort of, you know, um, something that I've manifested in my head. So I think to myself, you know, why would she be wearing this gown if it was something I just manifested in my head?

Wouldn't she be wearing her like classic hair [00:46:00] shirt? Because, you know, That's what I learned about up until that point that she was like always in this hair shirt. I've learned differently since then like she actually used to wear it in secret because because her her health was really ailing and her Her sisters would they're like no you can't wear that anymore and she'd she'd keep it under her pillow to keep it secret My wild lady.

Um So i'm kneeling at her tomb I have my eyes closed she's appears before me in this satin gown And I can really only kind of see the bottom half of her body and the top half is kind of in this bright light. But she shows me her arms. Um, she says, see how soft my arms are. She shows me her lap. She says to me that that she'll take it.

She said, you can put her here, you can put her here and I'll take care of her. And you don't have to do all this on your own anymore. And you don't have to be the one. To carry all this by yourself, because I'll help you. [00:47:00] And, and, ultimately, I think, also, what she was trying to tell me was that, you know, I can take your suffering, and I'll bring it and give it up to God for you.

Because, at this point, I'm still not ready to talk to God. I don't want to have anything to do with Him. And she was, I didn't even really know what, um, an intercessor does or, um, anything like that as, as far as like Catholic people. Um, but I think now I can say that I think that's what she was offering to me, to be my intercessor, to be my go between when I wasn't ready to talk to God yet.

And she was also just offering me the opportunity to not be alone and not have to carry this. This pain with me all by myself anymore, and I got up from her tomb and I'd like to say that everything changed and now we're all happily ever after. I became Catholic and yadda yadda. Not yadda yadda, but you know what I'm saying, but that's not the case.

I got up from her tomb [00:48:00] still crying. I went into one of the kneelers and prayed for a while. I was able to stop crying, but I didn't really think much of it until several months later until I really decided to jump in with two feet and become Catholic and Then I really started thinking about what was she saying to me because I remember leaving there and like Being able to breathe easier having like this weight lifted off of my chest but not really understanding it and not really thinking it was some sort of supernatural occurrence and now I I think that she came to me.

I think that she chose me to help me. I hope she forgives me for, you know, going to a CC only to see St. Francis, but I think she's good at that. Um, and since then, uh, I chose her to be my confirmation saint. And I just, I really love speaking on, on like her acts and her, her life. I, it's just [00:49:00] phenomenal and really impressive.

And so, yeah, that was a pretty. special experience. So that was really well. What started it and then from there I came home, you know, after an experience like that after not just with Claire but with Mary and even with the crucifix, with Jesus, with everything, I couldn't go back to the way that I was living.

I wasn't sure about going to mass because I was a Christian. you know, Lutheran, but, um, but I, I wanted those feelings that I'd gotten in Italy and I, I'd never felt that in a Lutheran church. And, um, so I started to go to mass, um, you know, semi regularly if for no other reason, just to rekindle those feelings that I had in Italy.

And then I considered actually becoming Catholic, but I wanted to talk to an authority first before I completely made, made up my mind. So I made an appointment with a priest and I went and spoke with him at length and that's [00:50:00] when everything changed. Um, when he told me that God loved me and God wanted me to be happy, it was like a drink of water after a 20 year drought.

And I didn't even realize I was thirsty, but I was so extremely thirsty. And that's kind of like how I was living, you know, ever since my 20s, was I didn't realize how unhappy I was. I just was going day to day, I think like most people maybe, and I didn't realize that there could be something better. And it was that conversation with a priest that illuminated that in my life and in my mind.

And I started crying and I just really haven't stopped since. Uh, it was an amazingly fruitful discussion. And then also, even before I got to speak with the priest, I was speaking with his secretary and those same exact feelings that you talk about, Joy, were, I want what she has. Within, like, I was [00:51:00] there, I got there kind of early and I think it was maybe like five I had told her my whole life story about, even about my recent miscarriages and, like, everything that had happened to me.

And somehow, I don't know, I just completely opened up to this woman. And then she told me about how her son had committed suicide. And I'm thinking to myself, like, man, I thought that I was selfish before, egotistical before. Like, nothing that has happened in my life could be that bad. That your son committed suicide, but look at this woman.

Look at the faith and the beauty and just the friendliness. She was so friendly and so happy and so beautiful and I wanted that. I, I, not even like before I got to the priest I was like, Man, I like this woman, like, I'd like to be friends with her after I talk to the priest. Man, I like this woman. I'd like to be in class with her.

It turned out actually she was the instructor for RCIA. [00:52:00] Um, so it just worked out, like, perfectly. And at that point I jumped in with both feet, wholeheartedly, no looking back. And I'm so much happier for it. What a story. My goodness. So many layers to it. I love how your, yeah, just going to Italy was kind of the spark of this transformation, because I absolutely love Italy.

I come from an Italian family. I've had the opportunity to travel over there and spend time, and I worked over there actually for a little while. And, um, my goodness. I just love it. So, you're getting me excited. I want to go back, but, uh. Oh, it's so amazing there. I mean, you can't, you can't help but be Catholic when you're there also, or at least appreciate the Catholicism and just the spirituality, the faith.

And then, you know, not to mention the food and the climate and, oh my gosh. My goodness. It's just, it's just unreal. So, so good. There's so much I want to talk to you about, but this tragedy that you went through, I'm so sorry for that. I think it's such a normal, like a natural occurrence for those of us who maybe are far from God [00:53:00] to then go to God in those moments of pain.

It makes so much sense. Um, you had that experience of disappointment of being like, God, you didn't come through for me when I needed you. And I'm really curious to kind of press into that. Cause it seems like that he was kind of working in the background behind the scenes. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you tell me.

And then he did come through for you in a way that maybe you didn't expect. But I think it is really important because a lot of people find themselves exactly where you were, that the pain and suffering in their life is this major wedge between them and our relationship with God. I think it's the number one reason that people.

Give up on God in faith in my opinion It's just like the pain and suffering they see in their lives or the lives of people that they love and care about Um, and so yeah So we can treat God as I've heard father Mike Schmidt say is this like divine vending machine or like give me this give me that I want you to just like fix this area of my life.

I don't want a relationship with you Just want you to be like this technician that comes in and just magically fixes this thing. How did, how has your kind of view of God transformed through this experience where maybe you saw [00:54:00] somewhat of that, again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but then now you see that there's, there needs to be a relationship and there needs to be like, he's caring for you, but he might not give you always what you want, but he will give you what you need in time.

It is. It's extremely difficult to go through life without God. And it's extremely difficult to go through tragedy without God. And my answer was to turn my back on God, initially, and that didn't work. But then, I think, one thing I want to say is that it's remarkable, like, my recovery time, if you will, of tragedy, since having God in my life, and prior to having God in my life.

And, like, the recovery time, like, you're still gonna have tragedies, you're still gonna have things that go wrong in your life. But the recovery time for me has been, it's like, you know, night and day, really. And, God, it's hard to hear, and it's hard to believe, but God does answer prayers. [00:55:00] And, for me, what I've realized, and I'm still not there, You know, a hundred percent like, Yay, I'm so glad that this happened to me, and you took this tragedy and you made it into something good.

Good for you. Um, you know, let's not lie or be fake. I still wish this hadn't happened. I'm still kind of mad that he chose You know this sort of thing in order to get me into the Catholic Church But I think that's ultimately what he did and I'm not saying that he chose to put this tragedy in my life for this but I was praying that I could see her again and I think because As he has opened up my mind to the faith and to the church and to this sort of, this way of life and opened up my mind to the detriments of my previous way of life, that means that in some way I'm going to be able to see her again sooner rather than later.

Because I do really believe in purgatory. Not the Lutheran form of purgatory, but a purgatory [00:56:00] where, you know, you have to prepare yourself. God. Um, so think of it like the scene in the wizard of Oz. They go through like a whole afternoon of like, you know, she gets her hair curled, like the tin man gets all shined up and this is just to meet the wizard.

But think of like how much prep you have to go through to meet God. And it's like, Well, you have to shed these certain things that you're still clinging to. And one of the things that I'm still clinging to is my guilt and my sadness over what happened. And I think that he brought Catholicism into my life to help me with this guilt, to help me with this sadness.

And therefore, I'm not going to have to spend as much time in purgatory and I can get to heaven to see my loved one sooner. I also think that maybe he didn't necessarily put this tragedy in my life, but he used this tragedy in order to get me to go back to church ultimately. Um, and then also to join the Catholic church because [00:57:00] I was raised Lutheran.

And when we did go to church, which was, you know, like Easter, Christmas, where some of those people, but also. Like, just every now and then, I would be like, You know, I remember just really liking church when I was young. Why don't we try it? And my husband was like, Okay, I guess. And we'd always go to a Lutheran church, because that's how I was raised.

And then, during my tragedy, my husband kind of reconverted. back into the Catholic faith, got really into the Catholic faith, and then, and at the time I felt, well, I've lost him. Like, he's just doing his own thing, and I'm gonna be stuck here in my tragedy. Um, and he started going to Catholic Mass, so then, after I came out of this funk and was able, after Italy, after I was able to consider that, you know, maybe my life is worth something.

Maybe I can go on. Maybe I can have joy and happiness because remember I told you the day after this occurred I was like, I'm taking the shotgun. I'm going to the [00:58:00] backyard. I Already had my note planned for my husband for my mother all this and so to go from there To entering into the Catholic Church took some time and I didn't want to have anything to do with God Meanwhile, my husband's really into God and I'm kind of offended by that You But then he starts going to mass and then so after Italy even if like I I really wanted to continue going to Mass because of those same feelings that I got in Italy But even if I wanted to go to a Lutheran Church, like it was too late.

My husband was already Catholic So it's not like we're gonna go to two different churches And so, I think, in a way, I mean, I'm never going to understand, no matter how much I ask, um, no matter how much I think about it, I'm never going to understand why God does what He does, and especially in that circumstance.

And I tell myself, you know, you're never going to know the reason why until you get to Heaven, and until, and at that point, you're not going to care anymore. So just stop thinking about it. [00:59:00] And I'm never going to know. But his, you know, path for me in that moment, in that situation. But what I can do is consider that he knows more than me, um, and also just have faith that he knows what's best for me.

And there could be a number of reasons why, you know, what happened did happen. But ultimately, I don't like to think about the negatives necessarily as much as like, look where I am now. And You know, since that tragedy has occurred, like, I've had two miscarriages, my grandmother's died, um, we had to say goodbye to our 15 year old cat recently, you know, there, there are things in my life that are still hard, and they're so much easier.

Wow, thanks for sharing. No, thanks for sharing all that, and again, I'm sorry for your losses. No, I think it's important to, especially for anyone listening who doesn't believe in God, [01:00:00] and maybe this is the reason why, because of pain and tragedy in their life, it's important to know, like, we can intellectually explain how free will and sin and evil work, but to me that never felt very satisfying.

Yeah. It's like, okay, fine, you intellectually have this valid argument that kind of accounts for all these objections, whatever, that's fine. It's important to do, but you know, it's not always so convincing. So for me, I think it is really, really powerful when you see someone like yourself who does suffer.

And does find some like deeper greater meaning in it and sees that God can somehow bring good out of it. That's one point. There's just something different about people who suffer, who like you said have like grace in their life, who have God's life inside of them. And even like just incredibly heroic stories of people who've sacrificed themselves for the good of others to love other people.

Um, I think of the Navy SEAL, Mike Montsour. He um, you know, he was a devout Catholic. He threw himself on a grenade in Iraq to save his Navy SEAL brothers. And, you know, you can say it's like, Oh, that's his [01:01:00] training as a SEAL, as a special operator. That was part of it. But he just, he did have this like selflessness about him.

And so I think, like you said, it's suffering. Doesn't disappear from your life once you choose to follow God and have a relationship with him But you like you said you become better and stronger and more virtuous and better able to navigate and even like you said see that This isn't the end if it was the end life would be very depressing and I would personally see no reason to live like to You know, I think that is It kind of makes sense if, if this was it.

And so, yeah, but, but I think overall, the thing that is the most mind boggling for me when I have wrestled with this whole problem of pain and evil in my life is, you know, I can never say that we have a God who doesn't know what it's like to suffer, like, like you said, in those churches in Italy, it's like the crucifix is always there.

Like, it's just mind boggling that a God who, you know, is all powerful, all good, all knowing could. Come to earth, take on human flesh, become human, and go through all of that. Worse than, you know, any of us could imagine. There's something in that that just, like, it stops you in your [01:02:00] tracks, and I think that's the greatest argument, you know, or the greatest, um, maybe evidence that there's something about, like, human suffering and human pain that, like, God wants to work through.

And, uh, it's not, it's not so clear. I can't explain it. But, um, But it is, uh, it's evident that, yeah, this isn't the end and that he, you know, God is moved by human suffering. It seems, um, it's kind of similar to, I can't remember the name of it, but there's this, the Japanese pottery where you take, um, gold and you fuse the two pieces together.

So then they become stronger than before they were broken and they become almost more beautiful too, because now instead of just pottery, there's, it's lined with gold and. I think that's a really good analogy for life. And yeah, for any of those who need inspiration, even if, you know, you aren't religious, I suggest reading about the saints.

I may be a little biased, but I think St. Clair's. It's just really inspirational. And there's so many of them who have [01:03:00] gone through turmoil or tragedy or even just, you know, were ridiculed for their beliefs, for being outspoken or for just, you know, what they thought was right. And a lot of them end up dying because of it, you know, and a lot of them end up getting killed because of it, I should say.

So I mean, that's pretty inspirational. No, I agree. And I think, yeah, like, kind of like you experienced too, sometimes, especially if you come from a broken family, the idea of like God as a father is like, can turn you off a ton. It's like, my goodness, like, you know, if you had a bad relationship with your dad or he mistreated you, it's like, why would I want any sort of father in my life?

And so like you experienced with, um, with Mary, the saints from what I've seen are these, and by definition, just for everyone who doesn't know this, um, saints are people who, um, um, live lives of heroic virtue, who have, you know, just were incredibly virtuous people. And so, you know, the typical people you think of are, you know, Mother Teresa.

You think of Pope John Paul II. You think of, you [01:04:00] know, any number of people that are kind of these well known quote unquote saints. And so, yeah, looking at them though, they best reflect God on earth. And so like you're saying, Bri, if you, you know, are maybe hesitant to go to God, just look at their lives, just see, see the way they lived and see if that's something that's compelling and maybe better than the life that you're living now.

And, and for me, that's been, it's been so inspirational and really challenging too. It's kind of, it's almost like we were saying before with your friends, if you surround yourself with like saints, it's like, my goodness, like I have a lot to work on and I want a lot, a lot to go through. So anyway, there's so much there.

And, um, and the one final thing I was just going to mention about like pain and suffering Cause I've really struggled with this. Like, I, I've really gone through seasons of my life where it's like, God, when my family was falling apart, when my parents were getting divorced, when, you know, all these bad things were happening, like, where were you?

Because it honestly seemed like he was just, like, absent. It seemed like he had abandoned us. It seemed like he was just, like, sitting on the sidelines, uh, watching, you know, us kind of get beat up. And so it took a lot of time. A lot of prayer, a lot of, um, you know, listening. walking with [01:05:00] mentors spiritual direction for me and To kind of see that he wasn't just standing in the distance He was actually right there in the midst of it working in the background and what I have liked him to make himself more obvious I would yeah, I really would have that would have been nice.

I would I liked some more quick fixes That would be really nice too. But for some reason He works silently in the background, and he, he works especially through other people, and, um, he plays the long game. The really long game sometimes. It's like, my goodness, like, a quick fix would be nice here or there.

So, there's something about that, though, that I think is worth, like, pondering. It's worth, um, wrestling with. So, no, it's so good. I, um, I wanted to just make this point and get your thoughts on it, too. Your story is just so beautiful and inspiring. And there really is this such clear theme of beauty in your story.

Obviously in the past, as you've shared, you've used your physical beauty in a way that you regret in a wrong way. But in Italy, you know, the beauty there sparked this longing in you for something greater. Like you wanted to experience that beauty again. You want to [01:06:00] experience those feelings like you said, and now, you know, you're using your beauty, you're using your story to inspire others and your eye for beauty, even to create this beautiful story.

Uh, and you know, rosaries, like you said, for other people. And so it's, it's really profound as I was thinking about you and your story. I'm like, it's really profound. This like theme of beauty, especially the whole fact that you were won by beauty, like beauty won you any thoughts on that? I think really like.

Conversion is where you find it. Uh, I was lucky enough to have some pretty beautiful women encourage me, you know, both literally physically in front of me and also, um, Mary as well, as well as St. Clair. But the gateway to God is just wherever it appears in front of you. And I have a pretty unique story, and I really like the way that you surmise that with like different elements of beauty.

But whatever it is that makes you truly feel better about yourself, [01:07:00] just go with it. Run with it. And that could be your gateway to God, your gateway to a better life, your gateway to feeling better about yourself. That's probably the first thing that you would hope your gate leads to. And I think that it is really fun how there's been this element of beauty, but it could be anything for anybody.

And like I said, even like St. Francis is like a gateway saint to Catholicism, but it doesn't even have to be full fledged Catholicism. Like take something in your life that you really appreciate or maybe even something that you're really good at. Or, you know, the combination of those two things, and run with it.

See what you can do. I'm amazed and just completely blown away by the success of my new rosary business. I mean, to think a person like me, who's not only Lutheran, recovering alcoholic, but also used to produce porn, and so many people want to [01:08:00] buy rosaries from me, like, what? It's amazing. Blessing isn't even the, a big enough word to describe what happened to me after I decided to make this switch.

And, uh, And ultimately, like, I think a lot of times what we tell people, or especially youth, is like, you want to do this to make God happy, or you're, you're trying to do it, like, it's for somebody else, you know, or like, this is the right thing to do, you're not supposed to make porn. Um, you're not supposed to steal or do other hoodlum type activities.

But instead of thinking about, you Doing what you're supposed to or what somebody tells you to just be selfish like do it for yourself You know find the beauty in your life so that it can outweigh the misery I think that anything that is beneficial to you can blossom into something that is beneficial for others, beneficial for even civilization, and wherever you can [01:09:00] find that in your life, go for it, run towards it, cling to it, do it.

So good. There's this thing I was reading about recently, it was actually in a book on like health and nutrition. And they're talking about this idea of like a helper's high, how when you just like help other people, if you donate your time, if you just help people who are in need, whatever that might look like.

I think the example they were giving it is like, uh, working at like a, a food kitchen where you're serving food to poor people. And um, yeah, they did, they've done studies on people who do that and they end up like living longer, like being happier, like having these better lives. Yeah. So it's fascinating.

So, so I think, you know, your point is, is, is a good one that, um, you know, if you can't find it in you to do it for other people, like do it for yourself. Cause truly like the kind of like your story, like my story, you know, we wanted to be happy. You wanted to experience that joy, that peace, that beauty that you experienced in Italy.

And I wanted to just not be so miserable and be happy. And, um, I think that that is like such a good thing. So yeah, what I would just like second is yeah. Anything that's good in your life, anything that's true, that's beautiful, like, you know, go [01:10:00] towards those things. And in the end, I think you'll end up, um, in a better spot in life and you'll be happier for it.

So, so, so good. I want to shift gears a little bit and I know we're running out of time here, but I'd love to just kind of give you these quick questions. Uh, one being, has there ever been, you know, maybe a temptation for you since your conversion to reject the body and sexuality because of the pain and the problems that it's brought into your life?

Um, to an extent, I think even during my career porn production. Like sex is completely skewed in my mind as to, you know, what it's supposed to be like, what we were talking about, making love, a relationship between a man and a woman, procreation, a beautiful union. Um, sex has never been like that for me. Uh, in college, it was all about, you know, filling the hole inside of me that made me hate myself.

and all throughout my 20s as well. And then I've really struggled sometimes, like, since I've converted [01:11:00] to keeping my thoughts pure and also what intimacy means to me necessarily. Like, because I did it for work for so long that, like, that kind of played out into my intimate life with my husband in a way where it was always like I was still on the job.

And since I quit and then also since converting, I've done a few things to help. Like we, we have a crucifix above our bed now. Um, you know, sometimes I'll pray and we're still trying to have a baby. Um, so it's become, it's easier with the help of God and the help of my, my true friends to be able to really connect with this man in a way that I haven't in many, many years.

And it's something that I didn't really think about until recently. And it's just, you know, another one of those things that I didn't even realize how this [01:12:00] affected this aspect of my life, but it really has. And I wish that somebody would have warned me. Again, thank you for just being so open and vulnerable.

Um, it makes sense. Again, I, I've heard that there's a lot of women, especially women in porn who in their personal life kind of become asexual. They kind of don't want anything to really do with sex. Um, which is kind of ironic cause you know, the, what's being acted out on screen is that, you know, often these women being like ultra sexual.

And, and so it's just very ironic that. That would then end up making them the opposite, asexual, in many ways. And so it is, it is so sad because there's supposed to be so much, like, goodness and beauty that comes from that part of life. And the, part of the reason I wanted to talk to you about this is because I think, especially in American culture, I think the Europeans aren't as susceptible to this, at least the southern, uh, countries.

There's like this real temptation to like reject the body and sexuality to see it as something like that's kind of bad and dirty. And it goes back to [01:13:00] this idea of Gnosticism years ago where they thought that anything spiritual was good and anything material like the body was bad. And so you kind of just put up with the body and then you and and just for all those listeners, I know you know this, but, um, you know, you kind of put up with the body and put up with sex because it's needed to kind of.

have babies and keep our species alive. Um, but there shouldn't be much pleasure derived from it and it shouldn't be this good and like beautiful thing. And, and so it's been, um, some, you know, denominations of Christianity have kind of latched onto that. I think it's gotten so much better over the years, but, um, certainly in American culture, there's this prudishness, there's this puritanism that is really toxic.

It's really bad. And the history of the sexual revolution itself is fascinating because the Hugh Hefner in particular, um, he grew up in a very prudish Christian family. And he rejected that prudishness, which he should have, by the way, but he went way too far in the opposite direction with kind of, quote, unquote, liberating the body and sexuality.

And so it's really just such an interesting thing. And I think an important conversation to have when it comes to, [01:14:00] yeah, kind of putting the body and sexuality in its proper place and seeing the beauty in it and seeing the glory in it and seeing that, um, yeah, it's not perfect. And I don't mean to like, make it sound like, you know, if you have the.

proper view of sexuality and you're kind of healed and your sex life is going to be amazing in your marriage and things are going to be awesome. Like, no, it's, it's messy. We're broken as humans. And so things are always never going to be a utopia. That's not what I'm saying. But I think that, uh, that the root of that has caused a lot of problems and like really truly the pervasiveness of pornography today comes directly from that.

Um, that kind of view on like the bonding sexuality. So yeah, I just wanted to dig into that with you. Any final thoughts before I move on? Um, yeah, I think that to view sex as scandalous and something that's wrong and bad and filthy can be just as detrimental as the flip side. Um, and yeah, I guess like you see it in Hugh Hefner, like you said.

And I think that it's one of those [01:15:00] things that really needs its proper place, and beauty is a big part of it. Beauty, love, acceptance, all those things go into a great relationship. I couldn't agree more. Have you been tempted to kind of hate yourself for your past? And if so, how have you dealt with that?

Certainly. Um, like I said, it's not just about porn production. It's like all of us, we have, you know, we all have pasts, we all have sins, we all have regrets. And I think really one of the best ways that I've dealt with this is, again, while talking to people who have been there, who also made poor decisions and then have rectified, remedied their lives.

You know, we're like, you can read, again, you can read about different saints that, and they're not all spectacular, you know, Mother Teresa. Like a lot of them [01:16:00] come from certain backgrounds and then have changed for the better. You know, a lot of people Mary Magdalene to me and she was a prostitute. And then, you know, she became one of Jesus's most trusted disciples.

Um, but also you can find those people in your life now. I can't stress the importance of, you know, um, talking to other people, especially in your own situations. AA was a huge resource for me. Um, And during that first year, it was really one of the best things that had ever happened to me. It was the greatest thing in my life.

And a lot of that is because, you know, I talked with people who were freely, openly discussing all the horrible things that they did when, you know, they were drinking. And now, okay, so not only was that like completely mind blowing, that you're just like, [01:17:00] Openly talking about how you got fired from your job or how you like you stole your daughter's lunch money like to buy booze you're just saying that like that is inspirational and and once you've told your Rock bottom story to a room full of complete strangers your life will never be the same And so things like that I think are really helpful and they're helpful to understand that you're not alone.

They're helpful to understand that other people have done these things and worse and it's helpful to see people who have done these things worse and now are better because they've stopped doing them. Yeah, I've definitely been tempted. And, you know, several times in my life, too, and I've, I've gone as far as to say that, yeah, there were many, many years that I think that I just completely hated myself, but I, I hated myself more when I was in amongst the detrimental behavior, when I was drinking, when I was doing porn.

Now that I'm out of it, I like the way that you said, it's [01:18:00] tempting to still hate myself, but I have a hard time hating myself these days. I don't know if that sounds like egotistical, but, um, It's a good thing. Yeah. Um, because I just, I mean, the people that I engage with, the people that are in my life, my work is so rewarding.

I have all these incredible people and I have all these incredible resources and all this great love and beauty and just abundance and it's hard to hate myself because everything's just really, really nice. I mean, you know, like there's still tragedy, like I said, but I have, this whole toolbox full of resources that I can go to when I'm, you know, in, when I'm in the dumps or like, even when like something like will trigger a bad emotion or a bad memory.

And, um, and then I can go to this toolbox and I have different people, different things that I can listen to, different things that I can read, different prayers that I can say. [01:19:00] Whereas before when I was an alcoholic or when I did porn. My toolbox was, like, things that are just gonna make me feel worse.

And they're not really helpful at all, you know, like alcohol or sleeping around any of those things. I hear you and yeah I think it's a temptation for all of us in one way or another like to have like that proper love of ourselves like where It's not like you said on one extreme Egotistical we're obsessed with ourselves, but the other end it's a really bad and unhealthy thing to hate yourself to think so lowly of yourself So I love that you're in that like in that good spot now and yeah I, um, I certainly have my own regrets about my past, but I think there's something about God's mercy too that just helps you be merciful to yourself because once you experience like that forgiveness, you can then start to forgive yourself, which I think is probably harder than, than even like asking God for his forgiveness.

So yeah, that's beautiful. You've already talked a lot about different things that have helped you to heal. You know, like you mentioned going to A, you mentioned, you know, just being surrounded with good friends, the saints, like things like that. Has there been [01:20:00] anything else that's been really helpful as of now, um, when it comes to just healing that brokenness, healing the wounds from your past?

I think that therapy is still helpful, but I think it's also a combination of therapy and then my relationship with God. Like therapy itself didn't fill up everything, didn't help with everything. I agree. And, you know, I still have those same issues. Like, all of us who are addicted to something, it's not alcohol that I have a problem with, it's myself.

And I used alcohol in order to, like we discussed, like, get out of this reality and make me feel better about myself. But really, and the problem isn't alcohol, the problem is me. And so giving up alcohol, that's like one, a really great first step. And then, you know, working on yourself, going to therapy.

That's another really great first step. But I really have to say that it's because of God that I have this [01:21:00] complete. And total feeling of healing. And there are times that that complete, total feeling has cracks in it. And I'm kind of like, I think you kind of touched on this, like, you're kind of thinking like, Is this really, you know, for real?

Or, you know, am I just kind of lying to myself again? But, I don't think it's a lie. I know that my life has changed for the better because of those things that we talked about, but especially God. I can't, I can't say enough about that decision and really fully coming into the church and learning about God and learning about, you know, the gifts of the Holy Spirit and learning about all the ways that just increasing your relationship with Him will benefit you.

And Really, just to make you happier, like, uh, a more satisfied person living a more fulfilling life. God's the answer. So good. Do you ever feel tempted to go [01:22:00] back into that life? And if so, what Uh, yeah, how have you handled that? I wouldn't say that I feel tempted to go back to, like, drinking or producing pornography, but I really struggle, if I'm honest, I struggle a lot with going back to that same mentality of I'm not good enough, I'm not, I'm not enough, like, I just want to die.

And it can just be, like, one thing that happens and then another thing happens, and it's not even like a major event has occurred, but just like, I'll hear a song that reminds me of something. And I'm in this complete shame spiral that usually ends with, I feel completely alone and I really hate my life.

I'm tempted quite often to do that. And another, another benefit, another thing that I keep in my toolbox that I kind of trick myself with is, [01:23:00] uh, that I then think, what is your demon saying right now? Now, this sounds maybe kind of weird, but for over 20 years, I've had, These issues of negativity that I believe originated in college.

They stem from the fact that I didn't have a father figure and I never finished college and I'm just not good enough. And I call him the demon. Now that I've converted to Catholicism, like referring to this demon that lives inside of me is isn't really funny anymore. It's like almost kind of, Like I want to call him something else because now it kind of scares me the idea of this actual demon living inside of me.

But for the sake of this podcast, let's just refer to him as the demon as we always did before. And the demon loves it when I start to feel isolated. When I start to feel alone, he loves it. When I start to get nervous. About, you know, speaking out about my story or hosting a prayer [01:24:00] space on social media.

I start to get nervous about these things, like, who am I to do this? I used to be in porn, like, I used to be the scum of the earth. Who am I to host this prayer, this, um, novena? Who am I to go on your podcast, you know? Who am I to do any of these things? And I know that's my demon saying, and he wants to do whatever he can to keep me isolated, to keep me feeling like I hate myself and to keep me from spreading this joy that I have inside of me.

And I still have to watch out for that because I'm really susceptible to feelings of, um, self loathing. And it doesn't take much on some days for him to, to get under my skin. But then, really, when that happens, some days I have to admit that I'm still not good at relying on prayer and God for first thing.

Um, but it is a learning process. And some days when that happens, [01:25:00] I can so easily just let this demon get under my skin and convince me that I'm not good enough, that I shouldn't even be alive. But then most days I'm able to see what's happening. I'm able to recognize the demon for what he is, that he's trying to bring me down.

And I think one of the reasons why this demon loves bringing me down and is always trying to bring me down is because I'm afraid of success. What will that mean if I'm successful? If I'm, you know, and I'm not talking about, like, a successful porn star, like, that's not real success. But, how about if I'm successful in, like, being a, uh, Christian inspiration?

Like, yowza. That's kind of scary, huh? Like, then you're going to have to continue to be this Christian inspiration. You're going to have to continue to be successful. And look at all these people who are going to look up to you now. And then that's when either the demon or the angel can win of like, don't worry about it.

My angel will tell me. My guardian angel. Bree, you're [01:26:00] gonna be great. Bree, you're going to be inspirational and you're doing this for God, for the people who possibly will um, be inspired by you. And you're also doing this because Just imagine how happy that demon of yours is going to be if you don't do this podcast and like how he thinks that he's going to have won.

And then I get really freaked out and I'm like, I am not going to let him win. And I, you know, pull on my boots and, uh, pick myself up by my bootstraps, whatever, and, and I get it done. And I go wholeheartedly in on it because, mainly because I don't want the demon to win. Uh, You're a fighter. So good. Thanks for, again, sharing so vulnerably.

You've been so open, and I know it's so helpful to everyone listening, and yeah, gosh. No, and I speak on behalf of the audience when I say, man, I hope you can see the goodness and the beauty in you and your story. It's, it's incredible. It really is. And so, yeah, yeah. I hope you can continually be [01:27:00] reminded about that, because we need to be reminded as humans more than we need to be taught, I think.

And I remember the story of John Paul II. So, you know, he's this Polish priest who becomes Pope. He goes back to Poland. Um, I, I don't know if he was Pope at that point or just a bishop, but I think he was Pope and he, you know, at this point, after the Nazis left, you know, Poland during World War II, the Soviets took over, the Russians took over.

And in many ways, they were worse than the Nazis, which is hard to believe because they were just, you know, kind of more insidious and they were doing things in the dark and trying to just control the Polish people and to manipulate them and get them to, you know, give up. especially faith and morals and everything like that.

And one of the ways that they did that was trying to redefine their identity as people, as humans, but especially as, as Polish culture, like they wanted to snuff out, you know, Polish culture and different formats, like whatever it was, literature, art, theater, things like that, from my understanding of it.

And so John Paul goes back to Poland and he says, You are not who they say you are. Like, let me [01:28:00] remind you of who you are. You are not who they say you are. Let me remind you of who you are. And I think there's like, it gives me the chills to think about that scene of him, like shouting that to them.

Because I think as humans, we all need to hear that. It's like, we're all told whether it's by like that, you know, like you said that. evil like wolf inside of us, that whole analogy of like you have two wolves inside you, the good and the bad fighting, and the one that will win is the one you feed. Um, we all have that going on at some level, some more intensely than others.

And, um, and I think it's so important that we are reminded, especially by the other people in our life, um, you know, that there is so much goodness, like we have this so much inherent value and worth. and dignity that cannot be erased even by the poor decisions that we make. And we need to just rediscover that, restore that, bring that back to life.

And, uh, and I, yeah, I hope you can continue to do that. Cause, cause I certainly see it and I know our listeners do too. Thank you, of course in closing out. I just love you to speak to your younger self I'm curious what advice you would offer to kind of two parts of your life one Maybe you're considering getting into the porn and only fans [01:29:00] world and I'm so I'm curious kind of what would you say to that young?

Woman now, maybe she's even listening right now Someone out there, uh, what would you say when she's like kind of considering that? That's one question. The second one would be what about once you were in that life and you felt like it was the only way for you to make a living? Like, what advice would you give to that younger self or a girl listening right now who's in that space?

To the first girl, I would say, I know this seems like a great opportunity and it seems like easy money and a lot of fun perks, but you're going to regret this. It's going to change you in ways that you've never even considered. And instead, I'm really hoping that you will just find the beauty within yourself.

You will find something for you that makes you feel important and makes you feel special. And it's not this keep looking, but it's not this. You were made for something more than this. You are made in the image of [01:30:00] God and you're beautiful. You were made in his light and he wants more for you than just this.

And I think to the woman who is where I was, who is now full on into this industry on OnlyFans and I think that maybe you feel trapped and I know that I did when, when I was where you are and you're not trapped. It feels that way and it feels like this is maybe all that you can do. And it feels like maybe this is a really great life, but think about your future, and think about how this is affecting you now.

You don't even realize all the things that are seeping into your subconscious, and you don't even realize how narcissistic you're being, how egotistical you're becoming. Like, just listen to the way that you talk to people. It's not [01:31:00] normal. It's Just, just think about, you know, your income and the way you think about money.

Yeah, it seems really awesome right now, but it's a totally skewed sense of reality. You're not even living in the real world anymore, and it's going to have detrimental effects on you. And I think that for your own best interest, you should stop. Hmm. And there's such a better life ahead of them, like you said, I think.

Yeah, there's so much peace. There's so much joy. There's so much freedom that you can experience outside of that. So thank you for saying all that. Um, I wanted to, yeah. How could people find you online if they want to follow you and how could they, um, get to your Etsy store too? Please tell us about your business.

Oh yeah. Um, so I'm mainly active on X, formerly known as Twitter. And, um, I also have an Instagram account. You can find me in both places just by searching miss B converted. And then my Etsy store, if you'd like to check that out, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm constantly selling out of things, so if there's nothing in stock now, [01:32:00] um, just check back.

Like I said, it's been amazing, just an amazing success. And the address for that is avemariaeveryday. etsy. com. And thank you to everybody who has, uh, supported that business a lot. Absolutely. It's meant so much to me. No, you're offering a lot of valuable things. And so, yeah, make, we'll, we'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes so you guys can make use of that and follow Bri on social.

Bri, it's been such a pleasure talking with you. Um, yeah, so grateful for you and your story. And I know it's going to inspire a lot of people for, for many years to come. And you've already, you're reaching thousands of people through this show alone. So I wanted to give you the final word. Somewhat a similar question, but different.

I'm curious, like, What advice or encouragement would you give to maybe the men and women listening who they don't really see a problem with pornography? That's that's one question And I think a lot of our world is there right now The second one is what you know advice or encouragement would you give to maybe someone who does see the problem with pornography?

But [01:33:00] they feel stuck. They they have these unwanted sexual behaviors in their life They want to be free of them, but they feel stuck. So I'll give you the last word. Thank you for that opportunity. So To those of you that don't really think that Pornography is a big deal. I used to be right there with you.

In fact, I would actually, I mean, obviously what I would, I would encourage pornography because that was what I did. Um, but also even prior to that, I used to think of porn as, you know, it's a place where you can go to explore your fantasies. And this way, like, if your fantasies are kind of taboo, like, you don't have to act them out in the real world and you can just live vicariously this way.

But that's not how our human psyche works. And, like, if you have something that's taboo, you know, maybe you should talk to somebody about it instead of feeding it and engaging in it and some people might even say that watching pornography altogether is pretty taboo and I think that, you know, you can choose the, the wolf who you want [01:34:00] to feed, who is inside of you, who makes good decisions and who will lead you to a better life, or you can feed the wolf who is detrimental and, and you really have to, you know, So what you're putting into your mind, um, is it good or is it detrimental?

And, um, I think also, like, for people who think that porn's really not that big a deal, one thing that most people don't know about, and I, I think, Really love to educate more people about this is the link between pornography and sex trafficking. And for those of you that don't know, sex trafficking is where you steal someone and make them into your sex life or sell them for to be somebody else's sex slave.

I'm not really sure. Um, I'm sure that most people know the definition of that, but I want to be distinctly clear that sex trafficking is a crime. when it's done without the other person's consent. And a lot of pornography is actually just that. It's done [01:35:00] without the other person's consent. Um, I didn't know this when I was doing pornography, certainly not in my industry, but on major site, on major porn sites, a great majority of the people in those videos are doing this.

Against their will. And just by visiting that porn site, you are contributing to this. But not only that, when you get a subscription, even, you know, to places like OnlyFans, have you completely done all of your research as to where that money goes, and who this guy is, and who this company is? Uh, because sex trafficking, is one of the leading problems in this world.

I would say, like, one of the most horrific, disgusting things that has become so very popular. I don't think that people are, are even aware of the amount of people living now as sex slaves. That there are more people living now as a sex slave [01:36:00] than there were slaves in all of Egypt, than there were all the slaves within, you know, prior to the Civil Rights Emancipation.

And you don't see it every day. Uh, you don't, it's not, it's very, very hidden, but watching porn, producing porn, even scanning like free porn sites, all of those things you're doing is to support people who, who are forced to be sex slaves. And like, how gross is that? You don't want to be a part of that. You don't want to support that.

And. Most of you probably haven't even considered that, but look into it, do your research and make sure that you know, you know, everything that you're talking about and make sure that you know that about all the, the hidden facets of this CD world, because it's not beneficial. It's not helpful. It destroys lives.

It destroys marriages, destroys families. And you could have something so much better. And if you yourself are struggling with pornography, with an addiction to [01:37:00] pornography, I'm really sorry for that. And, um, there's a couple of amazing resources out there. There's, um, a website called Covenant Eyes. It's where you can go and sign up to have someone be accountable for what you watch online.

Um, there's strive21. com, which is a resource specifically for men who are addicted to pornography. Uh, it's run by Matt Fradd, who, he does the, um, Pints with Aquinas show. He's really goofy and I like him. Um, and then there's, uh, Magdala Ministries, who is run by a woman who herself, she was addicted to pornography and has since completely turned her life around and offers ministry for women who are in that situation and support groups and um, chat rooms, that sort of thing.

So really, I'm sorry that you're going through this. I'm sorry for the part that I [01:38:00] played even indirectly. But I'm glad that you want help. I'm glad that you want to stop. That's like a really hard decision to make. And I hope that those resources will be great for you. And, um, I also encourage people like if you want to reach out to me, that's okay too.

I've had several people, even former clients of mine who have. converted just based on witnessing like the joy that I feel and just based solely on witnessing my transformation that they wanted that for themselves. And isn't that cool that like the woman that I met at the priest's office, she was that for me.

And now I could be that for someone else. Like, I think that's pretty cool. And, um, and so I'm, you know, in, I'm in no way qualified to be professional help, but I can help, I can listen. And also I can help steer you into the right path.

 If you want to know more about human trafficking and sex slavery like Bree mentioned, I totally recommend checking out the movie [01:39:00] Sound of Freedom. Some of you have probably already seen it, but you can stream it anywhere like Amazon Prime and it's definitely worth the four or five bucks. And if you want to take Bree Solstad's advice and learn more about the harms of pornography and how to overcome unwanted sexual behavior, I wanted to mention a few resources in addition to what she recommended.

The first is a book called Forged by Matt Fradd and Jason Everett. It's a 33 day challenge to help men specifically break free from porn and unwanted sexual behavior. The next one is called Fight the New Drug. It's an awesome organization that makes the research on the harms of pornography really easy to understand and it's totally secular, not religious at all.

I'd also humbly recommend listening to our podcast series called Healing Sexual Brokenness. In the series, we just interview a lot of experts and they give really practical tactics and resources that you can use to overcome unwanted sexual behavior, and it's so relevant for people like us from broken families because like I said in the interview, one expert found that almost 90 percent of people with a sexual addiction come from a broken family, and so it's super helpful for people like us.

And if you want to listen to that, there's two ways to do so. On your [01:40:00] podcast app, just make sure to select a podcast. Our show restored helping children of divorce, and you can search healing, sexual brokenness, and you'll see all of those episodes, or you can just click on the link in the show notes, which will bring you to restored ministry.

com slash sexual brokenness, where you'll see all the episodes and you can select the one that you want to listen to. And finally, because the topic of suicide came up, if you or someone you know is thinking about committing suicide, just call or text the number nine, eight, It's just three numbers, 9 8 8.

Uh, again, call or text 9 8 8 or go to their website, 9 8 8 Lifeline. com. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken family, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, feel free to take 30 seconds now and send it over to them. If someone would have done that to me as someone who comes from a broken family, I would have been super, super grateful for that friend.

In closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, [01:41:00] you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#123: What I Wish Never Happened, I Am The Most Grateful For | Jack Beers

Pending! Stay tuned.

At a young age, Jack learned he had an incurable disease. That naturally brought lots of physical and emotional pain into his life. But through that suffering, the lessons he learned and the transformation he experienced led him to say, “The thing I wish most never happened, I am most grateful for.” 

In this episode, we discuss what led to that transformation and more:

• The bitterness and loneliness he felt and how his life looks now

• Our tendency to “replay” the trauma we’ve endured and what to do if you feel stuck

• Why we need mentors in our lives to guide and challenge us, but also to help us see our blindspots

JackBeers.com

TheCatholicMentor.com

Schedule a FREE call with Jack

View Restored’s Resources

DakotaLaneFitness.com

Book: “Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing” - Jay Stringer

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey: [00:00:00] At a young age, Jack was diagnosed with an incurable disease, and as you can imagine, it brought a lot of physical and emotional pain into his life. But, uh, through that suffering, through that experience, the lessons he learned, and the transformation that he experienced, led him to say this. The thing I wish most never happened, I am most grateful.

Four in this episode, we dive into that, but especially we talk about like what led up to that transformation and so much more like the bitterness and the loneliness that he felt going through all of that, uh, in the moment that transformed his disease from a description to a dare. Uh, we also hit on the lessons that he learned from his pain and how his life looks different.

Now, uh, he answers the question, how do we actually transform some, how do we transform in a way that actually lasts, that actually changes us into a better version of ourselves. We talked about our tendency to. We're going to re play the trauma that we've endured and what to do if you feel stuck. And finally, why we need mentors in our lives to guide us, to challenge us, but also to kind of point out our [00:01:00] blind spots.

So, if you or someone you know has struggled navigating, you know, pain and suffering in your life, You're not going to want to miss this episode. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation, or broken marriage. So you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 123.

We're so happy that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard numerous stories of people who've just been really helped by the podcast. One listener said this, I'm so thankful for finding this community. Your podcast couldn't have come at a better time. I literally found it only days after your first episode and it was so therapeutic and helpful.

It feels so good and sad, of course, to know that the feelings you have growing up in such an [00:02:00] environment are something others also can relate to. Earlier, I have been made to believe that my feelings are over the top and have been told, especially by my mom, that all people have problems and that the world still has to go on.

Now, I know that it is allowed to have unfinished emotions and that you can't just brush problems under a rug. I'd like that you encourage us to take steps to try to heal and deal with the wrongs from our past. Thank you for that. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out or eating healthier, perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans. It just didn't work for you. Then this is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds [00:03:00] Customize fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment. But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I want to mention three things.

One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped. Dude, he's also a good virtuous man, too. He's not just, you know, obsessed with the way that he looks. Uh, second thing is he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And through that experience and studying at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest of your, yourself, like your body.

Uh, we really need to care for it all so that we can become more virtuous and more free. Uh, to love. And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people, you know, look good on the beach or something like that. His mission is to really lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

And so if you desire freedom, if you desire [00:04:00] transforming your body and your life, Dakota can help you. One client said this Dakota lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing transformations that his clients have achieved, just go to dakotalanefitness. com, dakotalanefitness. com, or just click on the link in the show notes. Uh, by the way, this is the last time that you'll hear about Dakota Lane Fitness.

So if you're on the fence, you know, maybe you've heard this before and like, man, I would like to check that out. I recommend just doing three really simple things. A one, just go to his website, click on the show notes, go to dakotalanefitness. com, just, just go to the website. Once you're on there, he has a transformations page at this recording as his transformation.

And you'll see kind of a mix of before and after pictures as well as testimonials from, from his clients just to see how Dakota has helped other [00:05:00] people. And then finally, if you want to take another step in that direction, you can schedule a free console. Just click on the, the contact button on his website and you can fill out a form to just schedule a free consult with him and you can just get a little bit more information about what it might look like, the pricing and everything, uh, of working with Dakota.

And again, You have nothing to lose, uh, just a little bit of time and effort, but, um, I'm sure it will, I'm sure it will help you. And so I definitely recommend checking him out again, go ahead and click on the link in the show notes or go to Dakota lane fitness. com, uh, to make use of all that. My guest today is Jack Beers.

Jack is the founder and leader of the Catholic Mentor. On top of over a decade in ministry as a speaker and leader, Jack is a certified mentor through the Catholic Psych Institute. He is trained to accompany individuals Through the storms of life by an integration, sound, uh, psychology and authentic Catholic anthropology.

It's kind of big words, but we'll break into those in this episode. Um, the certification was developed and led by Dr. Gregory Bataro. Uh, Jack lives in [00:06:00] Cincinnati with his wife and their two children. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Jack. Jack, so good to have you. Welcome.

Jack: Great to be here with you, Joey.

Thanks for having me.

Joey: Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you. Um, I have to ask kind of the obvious question, given your last name, do you like beer? Do you drink beer?

Jack: Yeah. So I usually, when people ask me, oh, your name is Jack Beers, you know, like, uh, that's awesome. What a great name. I'll usually be like, you know, my middle name is Daniels.

With an S, you know, I'm very Irish, you know, I have Irish parents, you know, it's not, you know, but if people get really pumped by it, I mean, I literally have a memory of being 10 and having being in a baseball field and having high schoolers come to you be like, wow, one day you're going to have some great parties, man.

Could be awesome. And, uh, and I'm an irony. I can't drink beer. So I, it's just a walking irony. Look at people. I want to drink beer with this guy. Well, like, I can't if you want to [00:07:00] Jameson on the rocks, you know, we could do that together, but you know, I'm not, I'm not going to fulfill your lifelong fantasy of, of watching someone with the last name of beers, you know, drain a beer or whatever.

Joey: I love the Jack Daniels joke. That's what's legend good stuff, man. Well, yeah,

Jack: yeah.

Joey: Shift into more serious items. I, um, I know, you know, a lot of people listening right now have endured a lot of pain, a lot of suffering because of their parents divorce, the breakdown of their family and everything that comes along with that.

And so while that might not be specifically part of your story, I know you have suffered. How's about that?

Jack: That's quite the transition. Um, yeah, I, I'm so grateful to be able to go deep here with you. Um, suffering has been a huge part of my life and it's been, uh, I think Tolkien said this. He's like the thing for which I wish most never happened.

I am most grateful for. He said and I, I very much come to a place of that. Where the things that I wish most never happened to me are the things in which [00:08:00] I'm most grateful for at the same time. And it took a long time to get there. It took a lot of work to get there. But I, I do like to frame the idea of suffering.

Like, I know that people have suffered more than me. And I know that the suffering that, that I have is, um, you know, relatively speaking is what it is. But, but it is still real. And it is still. Difficult and challenging. Anyway, so to the details of it, uh, when I was 11, I've always been like this. I've always been like tall and lanky and like a strong breeze could blow me over.

So I've never been, you know, I've never been necessarily robust physically. And when I was 11, I lost 15 pounds in 10 days. And I had a shortcut, and, you know, I looked like I was dying. I looked like I was a cancer patient. You could see my ribs and all this stuff. And it turned out that I had something called Crohn's disease, which is a, which is a chronic illness.

And, and this is like 2001. There's no [00:09:00] gluten free anything anywhere that's not like celiac. It's just known by people. It's like no one in my circle had ever heard of Crohn's disease, unless they're part of the medical community. And so we, my parents and I, like, we had. I have no idea what's happening.

It's like you lose, you know, 15 pounds in 10 days. And now you have this thing, it's called Crohn. And I remember I was, I'm 11, I have a fever and Crohn's can manifest itself in all different kinds of ways. And, and for me, I had like an exterior abscess and I, and I, so like it was painful, like I couldn't walk from 15 feet from my room to the bathroom.

I couldn't physically do it. It would just, it was too painful. So. For me to do just like hurt too much, uh, to move. So I'm like sitting in this doctor's office, I'm 11 and I have a fever. It's like one Oh two, one Oh three. And it's just constant. Like I can't move. I'm in a lot of pain. I just found out I have Crohn's disease.

And this doctor's like, okay, you're in a great spot. You know, I'm the best [00:10:00] doctor in the East coast for this. I have access to the best medication in the world. And I can get you down to three hospital stays a year, every year for the rest of your life. And my parents were just like, what? Yeah. Three hospital stays a year every year for the rest of his life.

Like, what is, what does that mean? What is his life going to look like? And this doctor straight up just went, you're going to have, you're not going to be taller than five foot two. You're not going to be able to hold down a job. You won't be able to go away to college. Like you, you need to understand something.

Like your son is now disabled. That's what it is. And I was like, I mean, I'm 11, but you're, even at 11, right? Like, you're conscious of what's happening. I'm aware of what this guy is saying. And I remember my mom looking at me and being like, that will not be your life. Like, whatever that man said, like, throw it out of your mind.

Like, that will not be your life. But I You know, I kind of believe the doctors, more of a, I believe my mom there. And so through the first four years of me having Crohn's disease, I missed over 250 days of school. I barely grew. I mean, [00:11:00] everything but the number of hospital stays was kind of coming through, coming to fruition from, from what the doctor shared over the course of the first four years.

And it was, yeah, it was awful. It was awful.

Joey: No, I can't imagine just being in your shoes and, you know, up to that point, it sounded like life was more or less normal. You know, you were, Growing and yeah, just things in life kind of looked like you'd expect for someone at that age. And then all of a sudden it just completely turns on its head, like how difficult.

And one of the questions just in preparing for this interview that I was thinking through, it's like the lessons that were, you know, kind of baked into that experience. And so I'd love to tend to tease that out because I really am a firm believer that like you said, with the token quote, there's All these like really difficult, painful things we go through in life, but my goodness, it can like warm us.

It can transform us. It can like teach us so, so much. So yeah, what lessons did you learn through this whole experience?

Jack: Yeah, well, you know, I'd probably go on for a long time on this one, but yeah, so I, like I said, the first four years were really, you know, they were brutal. I remember watching the Red [00:12:00] Sox come back and beat the Yankees and I'm a huge New York Mets fan, so I was happily rooting for that.

And just. It was when that happened, when Big Poppy was, you know, breaking his bat and hitting a base hit over second to win the game in extras, or hitting his home run to win the game in extras, or Johnny Damon's hitting a grand slam to just, Absolutely wrecked the Yanks in game seven. Like that was, that was probably the peak worst period for me.

Like I was watching that semi and I mean, it was, and by worse, I mean, like pain wise, like I was literally, it felt like my body was on fire. Like I could remember watching that game and just. Being on fire. And so I really feel like there were three levels of pain for me over the course of those first four years and the first two I was really cognizant of because they were obvious.

The first one was the physical pain, right? Like it just You're just suffering like I'm just sitting there suffering like can't play baseball. I'm extracted from social life It's just [00:13:00] physically difficult to get around and be around and move. So there's the physical pain The next one is is the emotional pain and the emotional suffering.

So when I first got sick, I got all this attention Letters and notes and gifts and presents and everything along those lines and then pretty much out of sight out of mind Everybody else abandoned me. It was sort of isolated I had my parents and I had my twin sister who and my grandmother who really cared everybody else aunts and uncles other Grandparents people I thought were friends It's like I didn't exist and I sort of been wiped off the face of the planet and it was very lonely You And I got bitter as all getup.

I was, um, I don't know if you've ever seen It's a Wonderful Life, but there's this, uh, there's this famous moment where sort of the evil character is like, you once called me a warped, frustrated old man. What are you but a warped, frustrated young man? And that's, that was me. I'm like 14 [00:14:00] years old, warped, frustrated.

Bitter, resentful of being abandoned, resentful of having to suffer, resentful of, you know, just very frustrated and angry over, you know, in being imprisoned by this physical limitation. But the thing was, is like, I didn't, I didn't necessarily have to be. My parents had found a different doctor and this really intense food regimen.

It's called a specific carbohydrate diet and we found a way for it to work for me, but it was like I could have like 12 items of food that includes like spices. Wow. So, I mean, I counted once it was like 12 or 17. I don't remember what one. So, like, I would go when I go to school, right? And it would be like, you know, you're in 6th grade and it's an ice cream party, like looking at kids eating a Sunday and I'm eating an overly ripe banana.

You know, it's like. Yeah. That sucks. You know, you go to the Super Bowl party and everybody's eating pizza and I'm eating dry, lightly salted chicken and lettuce with no salad dressing. You know, it's like, that sucks. [00:15:00] But it had the potential to work. Like, we'd seen flashes and it worked, uh, at different, at different periods.

I would go through two or three months where I would be super healthy. And then, and then it would be back down. Anyway, so there was, I, I had this physical pain and this emotional pain and this emotional bitterness, but I also had this tool, this, this food regimen that was at my disposal that could help me get healthy.

And when I was 14, I was sitting in my room and my mom came into my room and she had two presents for me. And at that time, I was, it was shortly after the Red Sox had won the World Series and I had to be homeschooled the whole year because it physically, it was, it was that bad. And so I was, I was pretty down, pretty emotionally frustrated and all that stuff.

And my mom, she just comes into my room and she's got two gifts for me. And the first gift is a, a wall sized poster of Muhammad Ali. And at that time, Adidas was running this ad campaign that said impossible is nothing. And so it was Muhammad Ali standing over Sonny [00:16:00] Liston, yelling at him to get up and fight him like a real man, about to become heavyweight champion of the world.

And then on the bottom, it says impossible is nothing. And my mom, she just absolutely calls me out. And, and she's like, I've been trying to will you to health. I've been trying to will you to put your mind and your heart and your everything into getting healthy, but you're sitting on the sidelines, you're not engaged, you're going through the motions, and the truth is, you can take incurable as a declaration, or you could take it as a dare, a dare to rise to the occasion of your life.

So she shows me the poster, and she's like, Muhammad Ali said, impossible is just a made up word. Impossible is nothing. Impossible is a dare. And she, so she goes through this whole quote of, of Muhammad Ali. She's like, apply that to incurable. Incurable is just a word. It's nothing. It's a dare. It's not a declaration.

It's a dare. And it's life daring you to rise to the occasion of it, to grow from it, to embrace it. So she hands me the second gift [00:17:00] and it's, um, it's a dog tag. And on the dog tag, it says, Incurable is not a declaration. It's a dare. And, and she's like, I'll continue to do everything I can to help you get healthy, but you never will until you, until you get in the game.

So get in the game and, uh, yeah, so she absolutely called me out and one of the most inspiring moments of my entire life and I decided to, to take her up on it. I decided to take to the dare. I decided to, um, as, uh, Robert Downey jr would say, uh, hug the cactus. I decided to confront the inner self and turn toward the inner storm, and nothing changed about my exterior life, man.

Like, nothing changed. The diet didn't change. My school didn't change. My family didn't change. Nothing about my external life changed. Nothing about my external environment changed. First four years, I missed 250 days of school. The next eight years through college, um, I missed less than 10. I grew to [00:18:00] be six feet tall.

I went away to school. I was, for all intents and purposes, you couldn't tell that I had a chronic illness and what made the difference was doing the inner work and the original question is a really long answer to it. But the original question is like, what's one of the life lessons that you learned? And so I just, I go to the, I go to the biggest one, which is you got to confront the dragon within.

All the crap that was happening inside of me, that I was bottling up, that I was pushing down, that I was ignoring, that I refused to confront, the anger, the bitterness, the frustration, the the sense that this was unfair, I have three sister I have two sisters, like, why did I get it? One of them's a twin, why did I get it?

Everybody else gets to live a normal life, why do I have to sit over here and eat this disgusting food and in order to just be normal and then confront a lot of the bitterness and the pain of other people and being abandoned and not walking around so angry all of the time at everyone. That was the lesson.

Like I got to turn toward the storm. I can't [00:19:00] run away from it. I have to turn toward it. I have to embrace it more than anything.

Joey: Wow. What a story. I so much. I want to say one of the things that you just brought to mind was this whole battle with ourselves, right? I think that so often I know in my life, it's myself has been like the scariest person to face.

And, and it's just fascinating. So I love your insight on that. Like, why is that such a scary thing? Why do, and why do we avoid it so much? Like, why do we run in the opposite direction? It seems like we'd almost, you know, be more willing to face like these Insurmountable like enemies on the outside than just look interiorly and face ourselves.

Jack: It's a great question. I think one of one of the reasons is that every spiritual master, every master of the inner life has essentially said, if you want to dive deep and look at yourself, you have to do it. with someone else. Like, you cannot do it alone. It's not like a David and Goliath situation where you're out, and you're looking at this big Goliath, and you're like, okay, well, [00:20:00] what weapons do I have?

You know, like, I'll just, I'll just fight, or I'll learn, I'll be trained how to fight, and then I'll just, like, go fight. Like, the inner world, because of the natural inclination of the emotional life and the inner life to protect ourselves and to deceive ourselves, it can be so hard to unravel. And really understand it, and you actually need someone else to reflect you back to you, to really be able to understand you.

So part of it is just practical, like, you can't really do it alone. And, and none of the, the masters of the inner world, and we could be talking about Buddha, we could be talking about St. Francis de Sales, we could be talking about modern mindfulness practitioners, you know, like, Everybody talks about having a guide to help you enter into the inner life, make sense of what's going on.

One of the things that that has really become true and, and that we've developed a deeper understanding about from a psychological perspective is that, is that we're, we're made up [00:21:00] of a bunch of inner parts and multiple personality disorder is a disorder of something that is actually natural and good within us, which is when something happens, like we win the lottery.

Multiple parts of us react to the same thing. One of the simplest examples of it, it would be like, not the lottery, but like, if you're gonna go play a game, and part of you is excited, but part of you is nervous, right, like you feel both emotions at the same time. It's because there's literally a part of you that feels the nerves, and a part of you that is excited.

Like, I love baseball, I would always be nervous, because I was afraid, there's a part of me that was always afraid of failing. And then I would also be really excited because there's a part of me that loves baseball, that loves to play the game, right? So you go to get married, and there's a part of you that loves your spouse.

But there's another part of you that has, comes from a broken home, and it's that arrested development part. It's that 10 year old sitting in your parents living room, like, hearing that your parents are getting divorced. That is [00:22:00] also reacting to this idea of getting married. That's like marriage is a sham.

You know, you're only going to hurt people. It's not real. Like that part of you is until that part of you is healed. Like you can't, you can't contain that part of you from reacting and for you to make sense of all of those different parts and how they interact with one another is not something for someone to do by themself.

Like you need to be able to do it with with the help of somebody else.

Joey: So good. One of the principles that we operate on is that healing happens in relationships.

Jack: Yeah.

Joey: Healing happens in, in relationship and it's exactly for the reason you said. And yeah, no, so good. And I think the other thing that comes to mind when you say all that is the idea of blind spots.

I think you articulated that really well that there's literally things that you can't see or access or, you know, Work through on your own and there's different, you know, parts of this, like, since we're using the sports analogy, it's like, you know, I was a baseball player as well through the years and play with some incredible guys.

I was never like at the D one level, but I play with guys who [00:23:00] D one got drafted, all that stuff. And, uh, you know, whether it was them or me, someone, you know, not as skilled, there were certain parts of my swing or, you know, feeling or whatever that maybe I was doing wrong that I couldn't. Yeah. See or know until a coach came up to me and said, Hey, the way you're fielding that ball, like try this, you know, try picking it or funneling it this way, try, you know, the way you're swinging, like loosen your hands a little bit more, drop your elbow, all of that.

And I went through coaching like that and it's amazing, like the transformation you could see, but I could have, honestly, Jack, I could have spent like a year trying to like critique my own swing and I probably would have missed a lot of that.

Jack: Yeah. So I

Joey: think it's, it's so profound. Like you have a coach, a guide, um, in your life who's able to kind of point out those blind spots and then give you a bit of a plan to work through that.

Jack: Yes. I, one of the most amazing things is actually, it's not the most masculine thing in the world, but it's art. Art is some of the best. It contains some of some of the best tools to elicit sort of hidden exiles within you. Um, I was working with [00:24:00] with one of my clients and I know we'll talk about what I do at some point, but it's working with one of them.

And really discovered that he was having some trouble in his marriage and that one of his main pain points that he couldn't get past was actually something that happened to him when he was pre verbal, so like he couldn't communicate. So he couldn't share with me what was really happening or what was really driving, um, this behavior that was causing a lot of conflict in his marriage.

And so I, I asked him to draw himself in conflict with his wife. Just draw your image of what's happening. And what he drew unlocked so much of what was happening, because the content almost didn't matter, like, what happened to him didn't matter. What happened was how he felt in that context, and how it keeps getting duplicated over and over and over again in different contexts, right?

He keeps having the same emotional reaction regardless of the content, because there's a part of him that keeps emerging. So he could never [00:25:00] see that part, understand that part, speak to that part. Until I was sort of able to help draw that out of him through the art of drawing, which is an amazing thing, but you know, you're never going to think of that on your own, right?

You're never going to come to that on your own. It's like, how am I going to break this pattern in my life? How am I going to trust people again? How am I going to do, how can I possibly believe that love is worth it or that setting myself up to be hurt again is worth it? It's like, well, you have to talk to that part of you that thinks it's not worth it and you have to understand it.

And and understand the role it's playing in your life and know that that part of you is good. It just doesn't want you to get hurt. It's not helping you right now, but it's still good. It doesn't. It desires your good. So how do we how do we engage with that part of you and understand it? And it's you cannot do that alone.

Joey: You can't. No, it's so good. And I love men. What a great example on how helpful. Sit to that, you know, client of yours, my goodness. I'm sure you know this, but that's like what therapists will do. I know you're not a therapist and you weren't trying to give [00:26:00] therapy, but that's what therapists will do in trauma therapy.

I've been through it myself. And like the use of art therapy is so important because my understanding of it, one theory of like the brain is that we have One side of our brain is more emotional, and the other side of our brain is more logical. And the logical side of our brain is the part of our brain that controls language, and, you know, math, and things like that.

The emotional side of our brain is more controlling, you know, reaction, and like, if we're in danger, then it will, you know, kind of take control. And literally, when you go through something traumatic, The logical part of your brain actually constricts, it chemically constricts, it gets smaller, the emotional side gets bigger so that you can react and save your life, right?

Think of, you know, extreme examples of a tiger chasing you or other examples, like, you know, we're talking about your parents getting divorced. And so. So the pre verbal thing that happened with that client is so interesting to me because that is similar even with people who are post verbal, who can, you know, speak and things, they might not even be able to articulate what they had been through because the place where the trauma is encoded is in that emotional side of their brain.

And so the [00:27:00] art therapy side of it can help people go beyond the language. And one other thing that I think is just so fascinating that I loved learning, I want to share with everyone listening is. Um, there's a part of our brain, I think it's called Broca's area, if I'm getting that right. And, uh, and that part of our brain, um, does play a role in like controlling language, helping us put things to words.

And that part of our brain will actually go offline when we've endured a trauma, or maybe more contextual to that sort of trauma when things are triggered. Um, which is so fascinating. So no, I just love, I couldn't help but share that because I think it's so helpful. And especially if people are, you know, experiencing this right now, maybe they've been through some traumatic, their family falling apart, their parents getting divorced, whatever.

And, you know, they are like struggling to like put it into words. It's like, well, there you go. There's some of the science of it. Maybe not perfectly articulated, but, um, it's certainly, certainly helpful.

Jack: Yeah, and and the other thing is because you can't this is one of the things that I learned about myself as well It's like because you can't articulate it because you're not exactly sure what's happening You will actually try and replay [00:28:00] your trauma in other Contexts across time in an attempt to try and win right like our brain categorizes it as a loss Something happened and we got hurt And we want to replay the circumstances again across time and across other relationships so that we can win and avoid that hurt.

So like for me, right, like I, I get sick and I perceive people all over the place as abandoning me. So in my mind, I'm not conscious of this, but in my mind, like when you get close to people who don't have to love you, like mom and dad, like they will burn you. So, what did I start doing? I started burning those relationships before they had a chance to burn me.

So, it keeps happening over and over again, where relationships end prematurely, or I make sure I'm the one who breaks up with the girl, whether or not I have a good reason. Um, it's like, what's happening there? Why is that pattern repeating itself? Well, it's because I don't want to have the same thing happen again.

[00:29:00] I don't want to get so vulnerable to the, I don't want to go vulnerable past the point of knowing that I'm going to get hurt to a similar degree as this other circumstance, so I'm going to cut this relationship off, so that doesn't happen, so I don't have to trust you, so I don't have to be vulnerable with you, so I don't have to be in a relationship with you, and so I just had really superficial relationships for a really long period of time, and it was, And it was specifically because I was replaying that trauma.

I'm going to end this before you have a chance to end it with me. So good.

Joey: I love that language that you put to that, like how we're replaying the trauma. I've heard people talk about it in other ways, but that, like, for some reason really sticks well with me, how we're attempting to turn a loss into a win.

Super good. I think the other side of that coin too, that people have heard, maybe I'll talk about in the show is this idea of like repetition compulsion, how we might end up repeating behavior that harmed us or we despise. Yes. And it was just so, so interesting, fascinating and such a big pain point, by the way, Jack, for people like us, [00:30:00] who like me, who come from broken families, because we saw something that was very broken and painful.

And we went through that ourselves with our parents marriage falling apart or whatever dysfunction at home. And we're like terrified of repeating that in our own lives, especially if there were extreme things like infidelity or whatever. Um, and so that that's like a major concern. So this whole idea of repetition, compulsion, and trying to avoid that is just like such a big, Concern, even if it's something that's not like this conscious, it's somewhere, you know, in our subconscious often pulling at us.

So I'm curious to your like insights or advice on that side of the coin of kind of this fear of going down this path that we really don't want to go on.

Jack: Yeah, well, so there's so many different things that could happen. So my dad, my dad's parents got divorced, um, my grandfather was, was unfaithful, and it was just an absolute abject mess of a home, right?

So my dad decided he was gonna be the exact opposite of his dad, right? Like, that was his, that was his reaction, that was his play. And he was gonna go to the, the [00:31:00] extreme other side. So you can do that. Other people don't want to hurt anybody else, so they'll, so they'll isolate, or they'll, Depending on when divorce happens, you know, if it happens in the preteen years, let's say 13, 14, one of the most natural things to do is to sexualize your pain because you have a sexual awakening.

And so you start sexualizing your pain, whether that be creating fantasies or scenarios in which you're in complete control. So like porn is a big, can be a big challenge for people coming out of divorce because One of the, one of the things that porn does for a person is it puts you entirely in control of your whole scenario and of your entire environment and people who come from broken families, it's like, you're not in control of your dad, you're not in control of your mom, you're not in control of where you live, you're not in control of whose house maybe you're going to be in, you're not in control of how you're spoken to, whether dad keeps crapping on mom or mom keeps crapping on dad, like you're not in control of it.

Anything. And so you're looking to have some form of control. So [00:32:00] you turn to something that you can control or, you know, you want to numb, right? So what's one of the biggest things that can happen for people who deal with a lot of pain is that they don't want to feel what they're feeling anymore. So they'll, they'll drink excessively or they'll, or they'll smoke weed and get high.

It's like when things get too difficult, you know, you smoke weed and you can get high or you become a self fulfilling prophecy. Right? You start, you start doing the things that you hate were done to you. And that part is like, this happens all the time with parents. So you become a parent, and all of a sudden you're like, Oh my gosh, that was my dad speaking.

Right? That wasn't me. And they have this realization. They're like, Oh crap, I'm turning into my mom. And it's like, you're not turning into your mom. You're not turning into your dad. It's literally the only context you have for parenthood. Right? So it's like, I want to go into a relationship. Okay, what's your only context for romance?

You have a tendency to then duplicate that over time, [00:33:00] because it's like, I don't know what to do. When a woman comes to me, let's say I'm a man, and my parents got divorced, and a woman comes to me, and she's emotionally needy. And I only ever saw my dad say to my mom, like, shut up and get me a beer, or like, Shut up and make dinner and now I have a girlfriend who's crying excessively and it doesn't make any sense to my male Logical emotional brain and my only context is shut up and deal with it and serve me It's like what are you gonna do in that moment?

For a number of people, the response is, I'm going to do some form of what I saw, because I'm just, I'm just reacting. I'm not thinking about it. And so I, I do it, especially, especially if you idolize that parent in particular, and part of the divorce was, was a shattering of the character, of the person who you really loved.

Then it's even more complicated because you're wanting to imitate someone, and there's a part of you that always wanted to imitate this person that [00:34:00] you idealized, and now the idealization is shattered, and you're, you're not sure what to do with that. Anyway, all of that, across all of these contexts, the content almost doesn't matter, and the reaction almost doesn't matter, anywhere near as much as What is the function driving your behavior?

A lot of popular way to look at this is like, what's the story you're telling yourself, you know, is the story you're telling yourself, which is like, my grandfather was a piece of crap. My father is a piece of crap. I'm a piece of crap. And this is what we do. This is what the men in our family do. Well, where does that come from?

Why is a part of you feel that way? Why are you responding like that? Or, I have to drink because I can't confront this pain. Well, why? Because I can't handle it. Okay, well, let's figure out what that came from. Because the drive to drink, the drive to porn, like, those are not, those drives are not bad, right?

Like, it's literally your body trying to help you get through the day. And what needs to happen is healing needs to happen. Freedom needs to [00:35:00] emerge from that healing so that you can then turn to that part of you and it's like I know what you're doing. I know why you're doing it. Thank you. But I don't need you anymore.

I don't need you to do that for me anymore. I can do hard things or I'm going to break the pattern. I'm going to learn how to love. That was, again, a long winded answer, but So good. It's a complex question.

Joey: It is, you know, it's, I mean, we could do a whole episode on it. There's so much you said there. I love the acknowledgement that that behavior served some sort of a purpose.

Not to say it was good behavior, not justifying it, but it's like, Hey, you know, if porn was your way or alcohol or drugs or whatever was your way of dealing with the pain, it served some purpose. And so, but then saying, okay, I want to move beyond that. I no longer need that. I want to outgrow it. Cause I really think that's like, so key to dealing with any sort of pain and problems in our lives is like, we need to just outgrow that pain and that those problems in our lives.

And obviously heal as well. And so, so much good stuff. And I do think that's possible. And I [00:36:00] want to get into like kind of reprogramming. Um, but two other things, I'd love to hear your thoughts before we move on. One is just this whole idea that we are, each of us are living out a story. You know, you said kind of, you know, you know, what story are you essentially telling with your life?

And it's true, like each of us is living out a story. And I think when we think of Any movie or novel we've read, it's like the hero usually starts in some broken way or they're facing some big problem, right? That debilitates them or prevents them from getting what they want. Um, but then they go through a period of transformation and every story I've seen always happens with a form of a guide, like we've already talked about.

So I think there's something to be said there as well. Like what, what story are you living out now? And what story do you want to be living out? And then what's the transformation needs to occur in order for you to do that. And then the final thing on the sexualized pain, I was just going to comment on Jay Stringer has been on this podcast.

He wrote an awesome book called unwanted. I definitely recommend you guys check it out. If this is an area of interest talking about, you know, unwanted sexual behavior and things like that. Uh, he quotes Dr. Patrick Carnes. He's a leading expert on sexual [00:37:00] addiction. He said that 87 percent of people who struggle with the sexual addiction come from a broken family, which is profound.

Um, and so I love that you kind of hit on that point too, because I think this, this audience, people like me are dealing with these sorts of things or have dealt with it in the past. So I'd love to hear your comments and then switch over to how do we reprogram this? How do we transform?

Jack: Yeah, well, porn, addiction, alcohol.

Like, they're extremely destructive. I think the nuance that, that I was, the line that I'm trying to walk is like, the part of you that drove you to those outlets is not bad. Them as outlets is destructive. It's the, it's the whole, it's the old adage of like, hate the sin, love the sinner, right? It's like, hate the porn, love the part of you that wants to protect you.

When I work with clients in particular who are addicted to porn, sometimes you have to do, you know, who, who don't want to be addicted to porn, like, you have to do some temporary measures or some coping mechanisms to, to sort of break the cycle and break the habit. But in the long haul, when you heal the relationship, [00:38:00] the original relationship, the part where the pain emerged from, when you heal that dynamic, the great majority of the drive to porn is gone.

And it's really understanding that not all, but so much. of addiction can be, can be significantly healed if you heal the relationship or if you heal from the experience that really drove you to cope with the pain through this mechanism. So I, I definitely want to add that clarification. Essentially what you were saying was decide who to be and go be it and wanting to, wanting to break the cycle and the story that you tell yourself.

One of the biggest things for, for me personally, And, and one of the aspects of my work and, and as a parent, one of the things that I really strive because it's been so important for me to, to share with my kids is reclaiming what freedom you do have and reclaiming your responsibility for your own life.

I know we have a mutual love for Viktor Frankl, the founder of Logotherapy, and in his book, Man's Search for [00:39:00] Meaning, which is a, which is just top five favorite book of mine of all time, he talks about the last of human freedoms and this idea that regardless of anything else, What can never be taken from a human being is the ability to choose their attitude in a given circumstance.

The exception to that is, like, when you lose your mental faculties. So, so provided you have your mental faculties, you're not struggling from dementia or Alzheimer's or, let's say, multiple personality disorder. But if you're, if you have your mental faculties, there's literally no power on earth Not even God himself has given himself the power to force you to respond in a particular way and to claim that freedom that you do have.

Like people who've gone through significant trauma or significant suffering, it's like the first step is to acknowledge the pain and to acknowledge the storm that you're in or that you've gone through and to acknowledge its impact on you. But the second step, and arguably the most important one, is What are [00:40:00] you going to do about it?

You have the freedom to choose how you respond. Your attitude, your outlook, how you look at it. You know, the first four years of me being sick, like, I had a terrible attitude. Victim, impossibility. Bitterness, resentment, anger, you know, when things turned around, it was an attitude of possibility. Like, what can I control?

One of the great images of this is Jesus hugging his cross. You know, like when I didn't grow up with any particular faith, and I remember the first time I heard the story of Jesus hugging his cross and him willing to The suffering that was imposed upon him. It was like, that, that's it. That's it. That's what I want to do.

Like, that is the most noble thing a person can do, is regardless of their circumstances, regardless of what's being imposed on them, to choose to embrace it. Walk toward the storm and to extract as much meaning as they can from the experience so that they can go turn around and be something and [00:41:00] someone extraordinary for other people, right?

Like the story of Jesus from just a pure human perspective is I'm going to hug this cross. I'm going to brace it with everything that I have so that I can turn around and give abundant life to every other person on the planet, right? It's like, okay, you have the actual ability to transform your suffering.

Into something that blesses every other person that you meet for the rest of your life. Like, no one can decide whether or not that happens but you. And, and claiming that is, I think, that changed my life. And, and I think it changes anyone's life who's going through a particular struggle.

Joey: I think there's, there's such power in kind of looking beyond your own pain.

And there's this idea too, um, of like the helper's high. I, I'm learning about it recently, so I don't know a lot about it. But just how, like, there's research behind the fact that when you Look beyond your own pain and you help other people and the example I was reading was in like the context of like volunteering for some organization.

Let's say there's like literally documentable outcomes, benefits that come from [00:42:00] that. And so it takes this whole idea that like love is healing to like a whole new level because it literally is healing. And so I love that. That's beautiful. And I think that's like the right question to ask. Like, what now?

Like, what am I going to do with this hand? I've been dealt. What am I going to do with it? Because like you said, so many of us have been through you. Pain and trauma, you know, can fall into that victim mentality and just kind of stay stuck there. And what I've seen too in the people that I've walked with, as well as in my own life, is that so often I think our efforts at healing and growth can be become kind of fruitless.

Because of that, maybe hidden underneath the surface, like we're spinning our tires and mud and never really getting anywhere. And so we might be doing good things, like listening to podcasts, reading books, going on retreats, whatever. Because we want that transformation that we're talking about, we want to become that person.

But for some reason that gap is just not being closed as I'm curious, you know, you already mentioned a couple of things that I think are really helpful when it comes to that, but like, how do we actually transform, like what's worked in your life and what [00:43:00] advice do you give in terms of how do you actually transform and become that person that you want to be?

Jack: Yeah, we could do a whole podcast just on this exact question. Uh, yeah. And I'll talk about it from a, from a personal example, and maybe even just some, some work with some clients. Sure. I remember When I tried to start turning things around in my life, I was still in a lot of pain. And it was, you know, it was just, it was rough.

It was still in that rough period. And I remember my mom had a rough day and she, she left the house for whatever reason. She had to go run an errand or something. And I knew that she loved to end her day with tea and she was coming back late. And so I made her a cup of tea without her asking. And it was like, I don't know.

It's like she was four and realizing what Christmas is for the first time, you know, like it was that level of joy and appreciation like to this day, she will talk about that cup of tea that I made her and how and how impactful it was because she knew how much I was suffering that I thought of her, which she never really understood was how impactful that was for [00:44:00] me.

It's like I can do something good for someone else. I don't have to live in this cesspool that is my inner life and my inner thoughts and my own pain. I don't have to steep in this misery every second of every single day. I can actually do something small to bless someone. And so any proper answer on, on types of deep critical questions like the one you just asked has a both and component to it.

So it's like if you're in a rut. And you're feeling like crap and you are just miserable and you can't get out of bed in the morning, like, do something for somebody else, get on your feet, and that's enormously helpful, it's like I'm still a useful human being, you know, like I still have something to offer the world, that's a really useful thing to know, especially when you're in the dark part, then at the same time, Find a guide who is going to walk with you into the depths of the darkness of your own subconscious and your own inner life.

Find someone [00:45:00] who you trust who can help you. And go confront the inner demons. Like go do the inner work and not for you not because you know You're worth it and you're all these things even though you are but so that you can go out and actually bless other people One of the problems with modern therapy is it's like we'll just sit and talk about your feelings and sit in your own inner life And only talk about your inner life and never do anything with it.

It's like the purpose It's to become a self gift. Now, you might be sitting there being like, okay, I want to become a self gift. I want to do the inner work. I don't have anybody that I can go to. It's like, what do I do then? Well, there is something that you can do. If you look at the people who have achieved it.

Greatness in their life and they're all names. You're like, yeah, I've, yeah, I know that they've achieved greatness. Like you go mother Teresa, you go Gandhi, Alexander souls, a niche in like Abraham Lincoln. It's like you, you go to these people and you look at their life. They had a compelling vision of who they were trying to become.

So [00:46:00] let's just look at Gandhi. Gandhi's vision was to become like unto God. I want to become a man who made the invisible God visible. That's what Gandhi was trying to do. It's like, that's my objective. I have a compelling vision for my own personal character and the type of person that I want to be. I want to be God's hand and feet on earth.

That's my goal. That's my objective. And then he coupled to get that together with, I think there are the 11 vows of Gandhi. So I, I call this the moral code of being so it developed a moral code of being for him to be accountable to and for him to look every night and be like, okay, I'm trying to become this person.

These rules are actually capable of bringing out this vision to life. How am I doing on these rules? Right? Like system strive behavior. It's like those 11 vows were there. Gandhi's system that drove the behavior that led to the outcome, you know, if you're a business mind, you know, you're, you're thriving on this, right?

That led to the outcome that you're desiring, right? You start all the way, all the way [00:47:00] at the beginning. Now, you may sit in there and be like, becoming like unto God. That's really lofty. Well, look at someone like Alexander Solzhenitsyn. If you don't know Solzhenitsyn, he is credited with doing the majority of the work of taking down the Soviet Union from within the Soviet Union.

So Solzhenitsyn He was a political prisoner. He spent, I think he spent a decade in the gulags of Soviet Russia, which is hard labor in Siberia. And when he was in the prisons, in the gulag, suffering some of the worst suffering you can conceive of in humanity, it's top three, is the Soviet gulags, which still exists, by the way.

He's in this prison camp, eating this watered down soup and bread and doing hard labor in the frigid temperatures of Siberia. What he realizes is He has to own part of the blame for ending up where he ended up because he participated in the lies that led to communist Russia that allowed a system to be created for people like him to be imprisoned [00:48:00] without due process.

So he made a decision and this is really simple. He's like, I am going to become a man of truth. There will not be a single lie that will ever pass through me ever again. It's like a lack of truth. Created massive amounts of pain for me and everybody I'm in present with. So I'm going to become a man of truth.

So like, let's say you had a really, really mean dad, and the criticism that you feel, and just, the incapacity to do anything because you're just crippled by that constant criticism. It's like, okay, become the kindest person you possibly can. Don't let criticism flow out of your mouth. And then, that's the vision of who you want to be.

It's like, I want to be an incredibly kind person. Or, Jordan Peterson will say this, I want to be the kind of person everybody can rely on at my dad's funeral. Like, okay, that's a really noble vision. What's going to lead me there? And you don't have to pick the ultimate vision, you don't have to pick the ultimate thing.

Like, it's just start walking in the direction of a noble vision of who you could be, [00:49:00] and oftentimes that's enough to elevate your life.

Joey: It's still good. I love all of that. I love the vision component, finding a guide. And I love the idea that you just threw out that the guide doesn't need to be someone who is even alive right now.

If you're not ready for that, I think ultimately it is good to have someone who's mentoring you, is walking with you, who's able to like have real insight into your life. But yeah, we can learn, we can be guided through books, through podcasts, through whatever, um, just like you mentioned. And then, yeah, going back to Frankel, I just love that idea of, you know, Do something for someone else, do something for someone else.

Like, you know, as I know you would say, you know, Frankel essentially found that the thing that we want most as humans is, is meaning. And he defined meaning as like basically a deep reason to live that's bigger than yourself. And that's what I hear you saying. And his local therapy, which is essentially bringing people into, and feel free to add or correct anything I'm saying, but.

His logotherapy, which was essentially bringing people through that process of finding that compelling vision for the life and just finding a deep reason [00:50:00] to live that was bigger than themselves, was very effective. More effective than modern therapy, like you're saying. And, you know, he ran a clinic in Vienna.

Um, I know we've talked about this, Jack, but he ran a clinic in Vienna for, um, patients who were struggling with suicide. They wanted to kill themselves and it said that, you know, through local therapy, it was so effective that he never lost a single patient, which is so fascinating. And so, um, I think there is such power and, you know, while not neglecting yourself and your suffering, like we do need to heal, there is so much power and healing in that act of doing something for someone else and, and going beyond our own pain.

Jack: Yeah, I mean, I was one of the clients that I was working with who was sexually abused by a sibling and the client hadn't talked about it for 40 years and decided to talk about it. And a big reason why this individual didn't want to talk about it is because, like, I don't want to wallow in it. I just don't want to wallow in it.

I don't want to, I don't want to have to talk about it and all this stuff. But it was inhibiting this person's [00:51:00] ability to love, right? It was inhibiting their capacity to love. And so I, and be loved by other people. And I remember how much of an unburdening experience it was for this individual for me to be like, we're going to explore and enter deep into that experience of trauma so that you can draw meaning from it and that that meaning can can bring you to a place in your life in which you are better capable of To not only handle life, but be able to bring tremendous good to the rest of the world.

Like, there was this one woman that I knew near where I lived, I only met her twice. She went through incredibly difficult times. In the course of one year, she lost a child, she lost her husband, she lost both of her parents. And she had to take over the family farm. And she went through a process, internally, to draw so much meaning from it, that in the last 20 years of her life, she served at her local parish as the person that everyone would call, or not call, she would just show up.

in the [00:52:00] darkest moments of their life. So when a child died unexpectedly in the community, this woman, her Anita, Anita was her name, she would show up with pie. And oftentimes she was the only person who could sit in a room and help grieving parents make it through the day. She was oftentimes the only person who could walk into a room of someone who just lost a parent and help them feel understood and not alone in the world.

And so when she died, I mean, she was farm girl. Indiana, she did all the hidden things you do in a church, like clean the toilets and pick up the flyers on the floor and all the hidden stuff, turn the lights on, everything, nobody, you know, there's nothing visible about her. When she died, the entire county came out for a funeral.

Because at some point or another, they went through something difficult, and she showed up with Pi, and the kind of understanding that only comes from someone who drew meaning from their suffering. And it's like, the thing that she most wished never happened, has become her greatest gift to love people.

And that's [00:53:00] possible for literally anyone. Everyone, like literally everybody listening to this podcast right now, no matter the scale of the difficult thing that you've been through, it can become your superpower to love other people and to uplift other people. And the only person who gets to determine whether or not that's the case, like, is you.

It is you. 100%. It's you.

Joey: So good. I love it. And I, I think that that's a great place to end on. But before we do, I just want to ask about, um, yeah, I know you offer mentorship. So please tell us a bit about that. Like what it is that you offer and how people can find you online.

Jack: Yeah, absolutely. So you can, you can find me, you can find me in two places.

You can find me at Jack beers dot com or you can find me at the catholic mentor dot com. Jack beers dot com is a place for one on one, a group coaching. Uh, it's really meant for me to walk with you in, in a short season of your life, usually about six weeks. Uh, and I run people through a program called Rise, and it's really a system of self awareness and, and deepening your self awareness.

The [00:54:00] phrase I usually say is, um, know thyself so you can give thyself. So it's, it's sort of a six weeks program. six week boot camp with one on one coaching mixed into it, and you can find that in both sites in both places. If you're looking for specifically Catholic accompaniment, that's why you go to thecatholicmentor.

com, and that's a, that's a form of daily accompaniment, really an elevation of Catholic psychology. Spirituality and anthropology to help you kind of face the storms in your life and draw meaning from them

Joey: so good to truly be that guide. And man, I've learned a lot from you, even in this interview. So I can only imagine how helpful that mentorship would be.

And so I definitely encourage you guys to it. At least check that out, um, you'll learn more about it, get some information about what it would look like to, to work with Jack. Um, but Jack, just want to say, thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing your wisdom and your story with us. Um, I know we're all better for it.

And just in closing, just want to give you the final word, what final advice, encouragement would you leave to everyone [00:55:00] listening right now before we sign off?

Jack: Well, thank you, Joey. Uh, we've only gotten to know each other a little bit and I feel so blessed by you already. So I look forward to, to our relationship to deepen as well.

Joey: Likewise.

Jack: Last word is, uh, you can do hard things. You were made to do hard things, and you will become a shadow of who you could be if you don't.

Joey: There's so much that we discussed in this episode that it can be pretty easy to feel kind of overwhelmed by it all. And so my challenge to you is this, what's just one thing that really resonated with you in this conversation?

Just take action on that one thing today or this week. Make a simple plan to just act on that, whatever that looks like. Um, that's it. That's all you have to do. And so if you want to relisten to maybe figure out what the one thing is, feel free. But if you know it, just make a plan, take action on that one thing.

And I promise you, if you stay with it, you're going to get some results in your life. And if you come from a divorce or broken family, or, you know, someone who maybe does come from a divorce or broken family, We offer more [00:56:00] resources at Restore than just this podcast. Uh, those resources include things like a book, uh, free video courses.

They're free now. We might change that in the future. Um, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and built virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better. life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself, or maybe someone that, you know, just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken marriage, uh, feel free to share this podcast with them. Feel free to even text them now, uh, to say, Hey, you know, I listened to this.

I thought of you thought it might be helpful. I promise you, even if they don't maybe say it, they're going to be very grateful for you sharing it with them. I wish someone had done that for me years ago. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can [00:57:00] start where you are and change the ending. Joey: [00:00:00] At a young age, Jack was diagnosed with an incurable disease, and as you can imagine, it brought a lot of physical and emotional pain into his life. But, uh, through that suffering, through that experience, the lessons he learned, and the transformation that he experienced, led him to say this. The thing I wish most never happened, I am most grateful.

Four in this episode, we dive into that, but especially we talk about like what led up to that transformation and so much more like the bitterness and the loneliness that he felt going through all of that, uh, in the moment that transformed his disease from a description to a dare. Uh, we also hit on the lessons that he learned from his pain and how his life looks different.

Now, uh, he answers the question, how do we actually transform some, how do we transform in a way that actually lasts, that actually changes us into a better version of ourselves. We talked about our tendency to. We're going to re play the trauma that we've endured and what to do if you feel stuck. And finally, why we need mentors in our lives to guide us, to challenge us, but also to kind of point out our [00:01:00] blind spots.

So, if you or someone you know has struggled navigating, you know, pain and suffering in your life, You're not going to want to miss this episode. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation, or broken marriage. So you can break that cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 123.

We're so happy that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard numerous stories of people who've just been really helped by the podcast. One listener said this, I'm so thankful for finding this community. Your podcast couldn't have come at a better time. I literally found it only days after your first episode and it was so therapeutic and helpful.

It feels so good and sad, of course, to know that the feelings you have growing up in such an [00:02:00] environment are something others also can relate to. Earlier, I have been made to believe that my feelings are over the top and have been told, especially by my mom, that all people have problems and that the world still has to go on.

Now, I know that it is allowed to have unfinished emotions and that you can't just brush problems under a rug. I'd like that you encourage us to take steps to try to heal and deal with the wrongs from our past. Thank you for that. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out or eating healthier, perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans. It just didn't work for you. Then this is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds [00:03:00] Customize fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment. But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I want to mention three things.

One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped. Dude, he's also a good virtuous man, too. He's not just, you know, obsessed with the way that he looks. Uh, second thing is he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And through that experience and studying at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest of your, yourself, like your body.

Uh, we really need to care for it all so that we can become more virtuous and more free. Uh, to love. And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people, you know, look good on the beach or something like that. His mission is to really lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

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Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing transformations that his clients have achieved, just go to dakotalanefitness. com, dakotalanefitness. com, or just click on the link in the show notes. Uh, by the way, this is the last time that you'll hear about Dakota Lane Fitness.

So if you're on the fence, you know, maybe you've heard this before and like, man, I would like to check that out. I recommend just doing three really simple things. A one, just go to his website, click on the show notes, go to dakotalanefitness. com, just, just go to the website. Once you're on there, he has a transformations page at this recording as his transformation.

And you'll see kind of a mix of before and after pictures as well as testimonials from, from his clients just to see how Dakota has helped other [00:05:00] people. And then finally, if you want to take another step in that direction, you can schedule a free console. Just click on the, the contact button on his website and you can fill out a form to just schedule a free consult with him and you can just get a little bit more information about what it might look like, the pricing and everything, uh, of working with Dakota.

And again, You have nothing to lose, uh, just a little bit of time and effort, but, um, I'm sure it will, I'm sure it will help you. And so I definitely recommend checking him out again, go ahead and click on the link in the show notes or go to Dakota lane fitness. com, uh, to make use of all that. My guest today is Jack Beers.

Jack is the founder and leader of the Catholic Mentor. On top of over a decade in ministry as a speaker and leader, Jack is a certified mentor through the Catholic Psych Institute. He is trained to accompany individuals Through the storms of life by an integration, sound, uh, psychology and authentic Catholic anthropology.

It's kind of big words, but we'll break into those in this episode. Um, the certification was developed and led by Dr. Gregory Bataro. Uh, Jack lives in [00:06:00] Cincinnati with his wife and their two children. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Jack. Jack, so good to have you. Welcome.

Jack: Great to be here with you, Joey.

Thanks for having me.

Joey: Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you. Um, I have to ask kind of the obvious question, given your last name, do you like beer? Do you drink beer?

Jack: Yeah. So I usually, when people ask me, oh, your name is Jack Beers, you know, like, uh, that's awesome. What a great name. I'll usually be like, you know, my middle name is Daniels.

With an S, you know, I'm very Irish, you know, I have Irish parents, you know, it's not, you know, but if people get really pumped by it, I mean, I literally have a memory of being 10 and having being in a baseball field and having high schoolers come to you be like, wow, one day you're going to have some great parties, man.

Could be awesome. And, uh, and I'm an irony. I can't drink beer. So I, it's just a walking irony. Look at people. I want to drink beer with this guy. Well, like, I can't if you want to [00:07:00] Jameson on the rocks, you know, we could do that together, but you know, I'm not, I'm not going to fulfill your lifelong fantasy of, of watching someone with the last name of beers, you know, drain a beer or whatever.

Joey: I love the Jack Daniels joke. That's what's legend good stuff, man. Well, yeah,

Jack: yeah.

Joey: Shift into more serious items. I, um, I know, you know, a lot of people listening right now have endured a lot of pain, a lot of suffering because of their parents divorce, the breakdown of their family and everything that comes along with that.

And so while that might not be specifically part of your story, I know you have suffered. How's about that?

Jack: That's quite the transition. Um, yeah, I, I'm so grateful to be able to go deep here with you. Um, suffering has been a huge part of my life and it's been, uh, I think Tolkien said this. He's like the thing for which I wish most never happened.

I am most grateful for. He said and I, I very much come to a place of that. Where the things that I wish most never happened to me are the things in which [00:08:00] I'm most grateful for at the same time. And it took a long time to get there. It took a lot of work to get there. But I, I do like to frame the idea of suffering.

Like, I know that people have suffered more than me. And I know that the suffering that, that I have is, um, you know, relatively speaking is what it is. But, but it is still real. And it is still. Difficult and challenging. Anyway, so to the details of it, uh, when I was 11, I've always been like this. I've always been like tall and lanky and like a strong breeze could blow me over.

So I've never been, you know, I've never been necessarily robust physically. And when I was 11, I lost 15 pounds in 10 days. And I had a shortcut, and, you know, I looked like I was dying. I looked like I was a cancer patient. You could see my ribs and all this stuff. And it turned out that I had something called Crohn's disease, which is a, which is a chronic illness.

And, and this is like 2001. There's no [00:09:00] gluten free anything anywhere that's not like celiac. It's just known by people. It's like no one in my circle had ever heard of Crohn's disease, unless they're part of the medical community. And so we, my parents and I, like, we had. I have no idea what's happening.

It's like you lose, you know, 15 pounds in 10 days. And now you have this thing, it's called Crohn. And I remember I was, I'm 11, I have a fever and Crohn's can manifest itself in all different kinds of ways. And, and for me, I had like an exterior abscess and I, and I, so like it was painful, like I couldn't walk from 15 feet from my room to the bathroom.

I couldn't physically do it. It would just, it was too painful. So. For me to do just like hurt too much, uh, to move. So I'm like sitting in this doctor's office, I'm 11 and I have a fever. It's like one Oh two, one Oh three. And it's just constant. Like I can't move. I'm in a lot of pain. I just found out I have Crohn's disease.

And this doctor's like, okay, you're in a great spot. You know, I'm the best [00:10:00] doctor in the East coast for this. I have access to the best medication in the world. And I can get you down to three hospital stays a year, every year for the rest of your life. And my parents were just like, what? Yeah. Three hospital stays a year every year for the rest of his life.

Like, what is, what does that mean? What is his life going to look like? And this doctor straight up just went, you're going to have, you're not going to be taller than five foot two. You're not going to be able to hold down a job. You won't be able to go away to college. Like you, you need to understand something.

Like your son is now disabled. That's what it is. And I was like, I mean, I'm 11, but you're, even at 11, right? Like, you're conscious of what's happening. I'm aware of what this guy is saying. And I remember my mom looking at me and being like, that will not be your life. Like, whatever that man said, like, throw it out of your mind.

Like, that will not be your life. But I You know, I kind of believe the doctors, more of a, I believe my mom there. And so through the first four years of me having Crohn's disease, I missed over 250 days of school. I barely grew. I mean, [00:11:00] everything but the number of hospital stays was kind of coming through, coming to fruition from, from what the doctor shared over the course of the first four years.

And it was, yeah, it was awful. It was awful.

Joey: No, I can't imagine just being in your shoes and, you know, up to that point, it sounded like life was more or less normal. You know, you were, Growing and yeah, just things in life kind of looked like you'd expect for someone at that age. And then all of a sudden it just completely turns on its head, like how difficult.

And one of the questions just in preparing for this interview that I was thinking through, it's like the lessons that were, you know, kind of baked into that experience. And so I'd love to tend to tease that out because I really am a firm believer that like you said, with the token quote, there's All these like really difficult, painful things we go through in life, but my goodness, it can like warm us.

It can transform us. It can like teach us so, so much. So yeah, what lessons did you learn through this whole experience?

Jack: Yeah, well, you know, I'd probably go on for a long time on this one, but yeah, so I, like I said, the first four years were really, you know, they were brutal. I remember watching the Red [00:12:00] Sox come back and beat the Yankees and I'm a huge New York Mets fan, so I was happily rooting for that.

And just. It was when that happened, when Big Poppy was, you know, breaking his bat and hitting a base hit over second to win the game in extras, or hitting his home run to win the game in extras, or Johnny Damon's hitting a grand slam to just, Absolutely wrecked the Yanks in game seven. Like that was, that was probably the peak worst period for me.

Like I was watching that semi and I mean, it was, and by worse, I mean, like pain wise, like I was literally, it felt like my body was on fire. Like I could remember watching that game and just. Being on fire. And so I really feel like there were three levels of pain for me over the course of those first four years and the first two I was really cognizant of because they were obvious.

The first one was the physical pain, right? Like it just You're just suffering like I'm just sitting there suffering like can't play baseball. I'm extracted from social life It's just [00:13:00] physically difficult to get around and be around and move. So there's the physical pain The next one is is the emotional pain and the emotional suffering.

So when I first got sick, I got all this attention Letters and notes and gifts and presents and everything along those lines and then pretty much out of sight out of mind Everybody else abandoned me. It was sort of isolated I had my parents and I had my twin sister who and my grandmother who really cared everybody else aunts and uncles other Grandparents people I thought were friends It's like I didn't exist and I sort of been wiped off the face of the planet and it was very lonely You And I got bitter as all getup.

I was, um, I don't know if you've ever seen It's a Wonderful Life, but there's this, uh, there's this famous moment where sort of the evil character is like, you once called me a warped, frustrated old man. What are you but a warped, frustrated young man? And that's, that was me. I'm like 14 [00:14:00] years old, warped, frustrated.

Bitter, resentful of being abandoned, resentful of having to suffer, resentful of, you know, just very frustrated and angry over, you know, in being imprisoned by this physical limitation. But the thing was, is like, I didn't, I didn't necessarily have to be. My parents had found a different doctor and this really intense food regimen.

It's called a specific carbohydrate diet and we found a way for it to work for me, but it was like I could have like 12 items of food that includes like spices. Wow. So, I mean, I counted once it was like 12 or 17. I don't remember what one. So, like, I would go when I go to school, right? And it would be like, you know, you're in 6th grade and it's an ice cream party, like looking at kids eating a Sunday and I'm eating an overly ripe banana.

You know, it's like. Yeah. That sucks. You know, you go to the Super Bowl party and everybody's eating pizza and I'm eating dry, lightly salted chicken and lettuce with no salad dressing. You know, it's like, that sucks. [00:15:00] But it had the potential to work. Like, we'd seen flashes and it worked, uh, at different, at different periods.

I would go through two or three months where I would be super healthy. And then, and then it would be back down. Anyway, so there was, I, I had this physical pain and this emotional pain and this emotional bitterness, but I also had this tool, this, this food regimen that was at my disposal that could help me get healthy.

And when I was 14, I was sitting in my room and my mom came into my room and she had two presents for me. And at that time, I was, it was shortly after the Red Sox had won the World Series and I had to be homeschooled the whole year because it physically, it was, it was that bad. And so I was, I was pretty down, pretty emotionally frustrated and all that stuff.

And my mom, she just comes into my room and she's got two gifts for me. And the first gift is a, a wall sized poster of Muhammad Ali. And at that time, Adidas was running this ad campaign that said impossible is nothing. And so it was Muhammad Ali standing over Sonny [00:16:00] Liston, yelling at him to get up and fight him like a real man, about to become heavyweight champion of the world.

And then on the bottom, it says impossible is nothing. And my mom, she just absolutely calls me out. And, and she's like, I've been trying to will you to health. I've been trying to will you to put your mind and your heart and your everything into getting healthy, but you're sitting on the sidelines, you're not engaged, you're going through the motions, and the truth is, you can take incurable as a declaration, or you could take it as a dare, a dare to rise to the occasion of your life.

So she shows me the poster, and she's like, Muhammad Ali said, impossible is just a made up word. Impossible is nothing. Impossible is a dare. And she, so she goes through this whole quote of, of Muhammad Ali. She's like, apply that to incurable. Incurable is just a word. It's nothing. It's a dare. It's not a declaration.

It's a dare. And it's life daring you to rise to the occasion of it, to grow from it, to embrace it. So she hands me the second gift [00:17:00] and it's, um, it's a dog tag. And on the dog tag, it says, Incurable is not a declaration. It's a dare. And, and she's like, I'll continue to do everything I can to help you get healthy, but you never will until you, until you get in the game.

So get in the game and, uh, yeah, so she absolutely called me out and one of the most inspiring moments of my entire life and I decided to, to take her up on it. I decided to take to the dare. I decided to, um, as, uh, Robert Downey jr would say, uh, hug the cactus. I decided to confront the inner self and turn toward the inner storm, and nothing changed about my exterior life, man.

Like, nothing changed. The diet didn't change. My school didn't change. My family didn't change. Nothing about my external life changed. Nothing about my external environment changed. First four years, I missed 250 days of school. The next eight years through college, um, I missed less than 10. I grew to [00:18:00] be six feet tall.

I went away to school. I was, for all intents and purposes, you couldn't tell that I had a chronic illness and what made the difference was doing the inner work and the original question is a really long answer to it. But the original question is like, what's one of the life lessons that you learned? And so I just, I go to the, I go to the biggest one, which is you got to confront the dragon within.

All the crap that was happening inside of me, that I was bottling up, that I was pushing down, that I was ignoring, that I refused to confront, the anger, the bitterness, the frustration, the the sense that this was unfair, I have three sister I have two sisters, like, why did I get it? One of them's a twin, why did I get it?

Everybody else gets to live a normal life, why do I have to sit over here and eat this disgusting food and in order to just be normal and then confront a lot of the bitterness and the pain of other people and being abandoned and not walking around so angry all of the time at everyone. That was the lesson.

Like I got to turn toward the storm. I can't [00:19:00] run away from it. I have to turn toward it. I have to embrace it more than anything.

Joey: Wow. What a story. I so much. I want to say one of the things that you just brought to mind was this whole battle with ourselves, right? I think that so often I know in my life, it's myself has been like the scariest person to face.

And, and it's just fascinating. So I love your insight on that. Like, why is that such a scary thing? Why do, and why do we avoid it so much? Like, why do we run in the opposite direction? It seems like we'd almost, you know, be more willing to face like these Insurmountable like enemies on the outside than just look interiorly and face ourselves.

Jack: It's a great question. I think one of one of the reasons is that every spiritual master, every master of the inner life has essentially said, if you want to dive deep and look at yourself, you have to do it. with someone else. Like, you cannot do it alone. It's not like a David and Goliath situation where you're out, and you're looking at this big Goliath, and you're like, okay, well, [00:20:00] what weapons do I have?

You know, like, I'll just, I'll just fight, or I'll learn, I'll be trained how to fight, and then I'll just, like, go fight. Like, the inner world, because of the natural inclination of the emotional life and the inner life to protect ourselves and to deceive ourselves, it can be so hard to unravel. And really understand it, and you actually need someone else to reflect you back to you, to really be able to understand you.

So part of it is just practical, like, you can't really do it alone. And, and none of the, the masters of the inner world, and we could be talking about Buddha, we could be talking about St. Francis de Sales, we could be talking about modern mindfulness practitioners, you know, like, Everybody talks about having a guide to help you enter into the inner life, make sense of what's going on.

One of the things that that has really become true and, and that we've developed a deeper understanding about from a psychological perspective is that, is that we're, we're made up [00:21:00] of a bunch of inner parts and multiple personality disorder is a disorder of something that is actually natural and good within us, which is when something happens, like we win the lottery.

Multiple parts of us react to the same thing. One of the simplest examples of it, it would be like, not the lottery, but like, if you're gonna go play a game, and part of you is excited, but part of you is nervous, right, like you feel both emotions at the same time. It's because there's literally a part of you that feels the nerves, and a part of you that is excited.

Like, I love baseball, I would always be nervous, because I was afraid, there's a part of me that was always afraid of failing. And then I would also be really excited because there's a part of me that loves baseball, that loves to play the game, right? So you go to get married, and there's a part of you that loves your spouse.

But there's another part of you that has, comes from a broken home, and it's that arrested development part. It's that 10 year old sitting in your parents living room, like, hearing that your parents are getting divorced. That is [00:22:00] also reacting to this idea of getting married. That's like marriage is a sham.

You know, you're only going to hurt people. It's not real. Like that part of you is until that part of you is healed. Like you can't, you can't contain that part of you from reacting and for you to make sense of all of those different parts and how they interact with one another is not something for someone to do by themself.

Like you need to be able to do it with with the help of somebody else.

Joey: So good. One of the principles that we operate on is that healing happens in relationships.

Jack: Yeah.

Joey: Healing happens in, in relationship and it's exactly for the reason you said. And yeah, no, so good. And I think the other thing that comes to mind when you say all that is the idea of blind spots.

I think you articulated that really well that there's literally things that you can't see or access or, you know, Work through on your own and there's different, you know, parts of this, like, since we're using the sports analogy, it's like, you know, I was a baseball player as well through the years and play with some incredible guys.

I was never like at the D one level, but I play with guys who [00:23:00] D one got drafted, all that stuff. And, uh, you know, whether it was them or me, someone, you know, not as skilled, there were certain parts of my swing or, you know, feeling or whatever that maybe I was doing wrong that I couldn't. Yeah. See or know until a coach came up to me and said, Hey, the way you're fielding that ball, like try this, you know, try picking it or funneling it this way, try, you know, the way you're swinging, like loosen your hands a little bit more, drop your elbow, all of that.

And I went through coaching like that and it's amazing, like the transformation you could see, but I could have, honestly, Jack, I could have spent like a year trying to like critique my own swing and I probably would have missed a lot of that.

Jack: Yeah. So I

Joey: think it's, it's so profound. Like you have a coach, a guide, um, in your life who's able to kind of point out those blind spots and then give you a bit of a plan to work through that.

Jack: Yes. I, one of the most amazing things is actually, it's not the most masculine thing in the world, but it's art. Art is some of the best. It contains some of some of the best tools to elicit sort of hidden exiles within you. Um, I was working with [00:24:00] with one of my clients and I know we'll talk about what I do at some point, but it's working with one of them.

And really discovered that he was having some trouble in his marriage and that one of his main pain points that he couldn't get past was actually something that happened to him when he was pre verbal, so like he couldn't communicate. So he couldn't share with me what was really happening or what was really driving, um, this behavior that was causing a lot of conflict in his marriage.

And so I, I asked him to draw himself in conflict with his wife. Just draw your image of what's happening. And what he drew unlocked so much of what was happening, because the content almost didn't matter, like, what happened to him didn't matter. What happened was how he felt in that context, and how it keeps getting duplicated over and over and over again in different contexts, right?

He keeps having the same emotional reaction regardless of the content, because there's a part of him that keeps emerging. So he could never [00:25:00] see that part, understand that part, speak to that part. Until I was sort of able to help draw that out of him through the art of drawing, which is an amazing thing, but you know, you're never going to think of that on your own, right?

You're never going to come to that on your own. It's like, how am I going to break this pattern in my life? How am I going to trust people again? How am I going to do, how can I possibly believe that love is worth it or that setting myself up to be hurt again is worth it? It's like, well, you have to talk to that part of you that thinks it's not worth it and you have to understand it.

And and understand the role it's playing in your life and know that that part of you is good. It just doesn't want you to get hurt. It's not helping you right now, but it's still good. It doesn't. It desires your good. So how do we how do we engage with that part of you and understand it? And it's you cannot do that alone.

Joey: You can't. No, it's so good. And I love men. What a great example on how helpful. Sit to that, you know, client of yours, my goodness. I'm sure you know this, but that's like what therapists will do. I know you're not a therapist and you weren't trying to give [00:26:00] therapy, but that's what therapists will do in trauma therapy.

I've been through it myself. And like the use of art therapy is so important because my understanding of it, one theory of like the brain is that we have One side of our brain is more emotional, and the other side of our brain is more logical. And the logical side of our brain is the part of our brain that controls language, and, you know, math, and things like that.

The emotional side of our brain is more controlling, you know, reaction, and like, if we're in danger, then it will, you know, kind of take control. And literally, when you go through something traumatic, The logical part of your brain actually constricts, it chemically constricts, it gets smaller, the emotional side gets bigger so that you can react and save your life, right?

Think of, you know, extreme examples of a tiger chasing you or other examples, like, you know, we're talking about your parents getting divorced. And so. So the pre verbal thing that happened with that client is so interesting to me because that is similar even with people who are post verbal, who can, you know, speak and things, they might not even be able to articulate what they had been through because the place where the trauma is encoded is in that emotional side of their brain.

And so the [00:27:00] art therapy side of it can help people go beyond the language. And one other thing that I think is just so fascinating that I loved learning, I want to share with everyone listening is. Um, there's a part of our brain, I think it's called Broca's area, if I'm getting that right. And, uh, and that part of our brain, um, does play a role in like controlling language, helping us put things to words.

And that part of our brain will actually go offline when we've endured a trauma, or maybe more contextual to that sort of trauma when things are triggered. Um, which is so fascinating. So no, I just love, I couldn't help but share that because I think it's so helpful. And especially if people are, you know, experiencing this right now, maybe they've been through some traumatic, their family falling apart, their parents getting divorced, whatever.

And, you know, they are like struggling to like put it into words. It's like, well, there you go. There's some of the science of it. Maybe not perfectly articulated, but, um, it's certainly, certainly helpful.

Jack: Yeah, and and the other thing is because you can't this is one of the things that I learned about myself as well It's like because you can't articulate it because you're not exactly sure what's happening You will actually try and replay [00:28:00] your trauma in other Contexts across time in an attempt to try and win right like our brain categorizes it as a loss Something happened and we got hurt And we want to replay the circumstances again across time and across other relationships so that we can win and avoid that hurt.

So like for me, right, like I, I get sick and I perceive people all over the place as abandoning me. So in my mind, I'm not conscious of this, but in my mind, like when you get close to people who don't have to love you, like mom and dad, like they will burn you. So, what did I start doing? I started burning those relationships before they had a chance to burn me.

So, it keeps happening over and over again, where relationships end prematurely, or I make sure I'm the one who breaks up with the girl, whether or not I have a good reason. Um, it's like, what's happening there? Why is that pattern repeating itself? Well, it's because I don't want to have the same thing happen again.

[00:29:00] I don't want to get so vulnerable to the, I don't want to go vulnerable past the point of knowing that I'm going to get hurt to a similar degree as this other circumstance, so I'm going to cut this relationship off, so that doesn't happen, so I don't have to trust you, so I don't have to be vulnerable with you, so I don't have to be in a relationship with you, and so I just had really superficial relationships for a really long period of time, and it was, And it was specifically because I was replaying that trauma.

I'm going to end this before you have a chance to end it with me. So good.

Joey: I love that language that you put to that, like how we're replaying the trauma. I've heard people talk about it in other ways, but that, like, for some reason really sticks well with me, how we're attempting to turn a loss into a win.

Super good. I think the other side of that coin too, that people have heard, maybe I'll talk about in the show is this idea of like repetition compulsion, how we might end up repeating behavior that harmed us or we despise. Yes. And it was just so, so interesting, fascinating and such a big pain point, by the way, Jack, for people like us, [00:30:00] who like me, who come from broken families, because we saw something that was very broken and painful.

And we went through that ourselves with our parents marriage falling apart or whatever dysfunction at home. And we're like terrified of repeating that in our own lives, especially if there were extreme things like infidelity or whatever. Um, and so that that's like a major concern. So this whole idea of repetition, compulsion, and trying to avoid that is just like such a big, Concern, even if it's something that's not like this conscious, it's somewhere, you know, in our subconscious often pulling at us.

So I'm curious to your like insights or advice on that side of the coin of kind of this fear of going down this path that we really don't want to go on.

Jack: Yeah, well, so there's so many different things that could happen. So my dad, my dad's parents got divorced, um, my grandfather was, was unfaithful, and it was just an absolute abject mess of a home, right?

So my dad decided he was gonna be the exact opposite of his dad, right? Like, that was his, that was his reaction, that was his play. And he was gonna go to the, the [00:31:00] extreme other side. So you can do that. Other people don't want to hurt anybody else, so they'll, so they'll isolate, or they'll, Depending on when divorce happens, you know, if it happens in the preteen years, let's say 13, 14, one of the most natural things to do is to sexualize your pain because you have a sexual awakening.

And so you start sexualizing your pain, whether that be creating fantasies or scenarios in which you're in complete control. So like porn is a big, can be a big challenge for people coming out of divorce because One of the, one of the things that porn does for a person is it puts you entirely in control of your whole scenario and of your entire environment and people who come from broken families, it's like, you're not in control of your dad, you're not in control of your mom, you're not in control of where you live, you're not in control of whose house maybe you're going to be in, you're not in control of how you're spoken to, whether dad keeps crapping on mom or mom keeps crapping on dad, like you're not in control of it.

Anything. And so you're looking to have some form of control. So [00:32:00] you turn to something that you can control or, you know, you want to numb, right? So what's one of the biggest things that can happen for people who deal with a lot of pain is that they don't want to feel what they're feeling anymore. So they'll, they'll drink excessively or they'll, or they'll smoke weed and get high.

It's like when things get too difficult, you know, you smoke weed and you can get high or you become a self fulfilling prophecy. Right? You start, you start doing the things that you hate were done to you. And that part is like, this happens all the time with parents. So you become a parent, and all of a sudden you're like, Oh my gosh, that was my dad speaking.

Right? That wasn't me. And they have this realization. They're like, Oh crap, I'm turning into my mom. And it's like, you're not turning into your mom. You're not turning into your dad. It's literally the only context you have for parenthood. Right? So it's like, I want to go into a relationship. Okay, what's your only context for romance?

You have a tendency to then duplicate that over time, [00:33:00] because it's like, I don't know what to do. When a woman comes to me, let's say I'm a man, and my parents got divorced, and a woman comes to me, and she's emotionally needy. And I only ever saw my dad say to my mom, like, shut up and get me a beer, or like, Shut up and make dinner and now I have a girlfriend who's crying excessively and it doesn't make any sense to my male Logical emotional brain and my only context is shut up and deal with it and serve me It's like what are you gonna do in that moment?

For a number of people, the response is, I'm going to do some form of what I saw, because I'm just, I'm just reacting. I'm not thinking about it. And so I, I do it, especially, especially if you idolize that parent in particular, and part of the divorce was, was a shattering of the character, of the person who you really loved.

Then it's even more complicated because you're wanting to imitate someone, and there's a part of you that always wanted to imitate this person that [00:34:00] you idealized, and now the idealization is shattered, and you're, you're not sure what to do with that. Anyway, all of that, across all of these contexts, the content almost doesn't matter, and the reaction almost doesn't matter, anywhere near as much as What is the function driving your behavior?

A lot of popular way to look at this is like, what's the story you're telling yourself, you know, is the story you're telling yourself, which is like, my grandfather was a piece of crap. My father is a piece of crap. I'm a piece of crap. And this is what we do. This is what the men in our family do. Well, where does that come from?

Why is a part of you feel that way? Why are you responding like that? Or, I have to drink because I can't confront this pain. Well, why? Because I can't handle it. Okay, well, let's figure out what that came from. Because the drive to drink, the drive to porn, like, those are not, those drives are not bad, right?

Like, it's literally your body trying to help you get through the day. And what needs to happen is healing needs to happen. Freedom needs to [00:35:00] emerge from that healing so that you can then turn to that part of you and it's like I know what you're doing. I know why you're doing it. Thank you. But I don't need you anymore.

I don't need you to do that for me anymore. I can do hard things or I'm going to break the pattern. I'm going to learn how to love. That was, again, a long winded answer, but So good. It's a complex question.

Joey: It is, you know, it's, I mean, we could do a whole episode on it. There's so much you said there. I love the acknowledgement that that behavior served some sort of a purpose.

Not to say it was good behavior, not justifying it, but it's like, Hey, you know, if porn was your way or alcohol or drugs or whatever was your way of dealing with the pain, it served some purpose. And so, but then saying, okay, I want to move beyond that. I no longer need that. I want to outgrow it. Cause I really think that's like, so key to dealing with any sort of pain and problems in our lives is like, we need to just outgrow that pain and that those problems in our lives.

And obviously heal as well. And so, so much good stuff. And I do think that's possible. And I [00:36:00] want to get into like kind of reprogramming. Um, but two other things, I'd love to hear your thoughts before we move on. One is just this whole idea that we are, each of us are living out a story. You know, you said kind of, you know, you know, what story are you essentially telling with your life?

And it's true, like each of us is living out a story. And I think when we think of Any movie or novel we've read, it's like the hero usually starts in some broken way or they're facing some big problem, right? That debilitates them or prevents them from getting what they want. Um, but then they go through a period of transformation and every story I've seen always happens with a form of a guide, like we've already talked about.

So I think there's something to be said there as well. Like what, what story are you living out now? And what story do you want to be living out? And then what's the transformation needs to occur in order for you to do that. And then the final thing on the sexualized pain, I was just going to comment on Jay Stringer has been on this podcast.

He wrote an awesome book called unwanted. I definitely recommend you guys check it out. If this is an area of interest talking about, you know, unwanted sexual behavior and things like that. Uh, he quotes Dr. Patrick Carnes. He's a leading expert on sexual [00:37:00] addiction. He said that 87 percent of people who struggle with the sexual addiction come from a broken family, which is profound.

Um, and so I love that you kind of hit on that point too, because I think this, this audience, people like me are dealing with these sorts of things or have dealt with it in the past. So I'd love to hear your comments and then switch over to how do we reprogram this? How do we transform?

Jack: Yeah, well, porn, addiction, alcohol.

Like, they're extremely destructive. I think the nuance that, that I was, the line that I'm trying to walk is like, the part of you that drove you to those outlets is not bad. Them as outlets is destructive. It's the, it's the whole, it's the old adage of like, hate the sin, love the sinner, right? It's like, hate the porn, love the part of you that wants to protect you.

When I work with clients in particular who are addicted to porn, sometimes you have to do, you know, who, who don't want to be addicted to porn, like, you have to do some temporary measures or some coping mechanisms to, to sort of break the cycle and break the habit. But in the long haul, when you heal the relationship, [00:38:00] the original relationship, the part where the pain emerged from, when you heal that dynamic, the great majority of the drive to porn is gone.

And it's really understanding that not all, but so much. of addiction can be, can be significantly healed if you heal the relationship or if you heal from the experience that really drove you to cope with the pain through this mechanism. So I, I definitely want to add that clarification. Essentially what you were saying was decide who to be and go be it and wanting to, wanting to break the cycle and the story that you tell yourself.

One of the biggest things for, for me personally, And, and one of the aspects of my work and, and as a parent, one of the things that I really strive because it's been so important for me to, to share with my kids is reclaiming what freedom you do have and reclaiming your responsibility for your own life.

I know we have a mutual love for Viktor Frankl, the founder of Logotherapy, and in his book, Man's Search for [00:39:00] Meaning, which is a, which is just top five favorite book of mine of all time, he talks about the last of human freedoms and this idea that regardless of anything else, What can never be taken from a human being is the ability to choose their attitude in a given circumstance.

The exception to that is, like, when you lose your mental faculties. So, so provided you have your mental faculties, you're not struggling from dementia or Alzheimer's or, let's say, multiple personality disorder. But if you're, if you have your mental faculties, there's literally no power on earth Not even God himself has given himself the power to force you to respond in a particular way and to claim that freedom that you do have.

Like people who've gone through significant trauma or significant suffering, it's like the first step is to acknowledge the pain and to acknowledge the storm that you're in or that you've gone through and to acknowledge its impact on you. But the second step, and arguably the most important one, is What are [00:40:00] you going to do about it?

You have the freedom to choose how you respond. Your attitude, your outlook, how you look at it. You know, the first four years of me being sick, like, I had a terrible attitude. Victim, impossibility. Bitterness, resentment, anger, you know, when things turned around, it was an attitude of possibility. Like, what can I control?

One of the great images of this is Jesus hugging his cross. You know, like when I didn't grow up with any particular faith, and I remember the first time I heard the story of Jesus hugging his cross and him willing to The suffering that was imposed upon him. It was like, that, that's it. That's it. That's what I want to do.

Like, that is the most noble thing a person can do, is regardless of their circumstances, regardless of what's being imposed on them, to choose to embrace it. Walk toward the storm and to extract as much meaning as they can from the experience so that they can go turn around and be something and [00:41:00] someone extraordinary for other people, right?

Like the story of Jesus from just a pure human perspective is I'm going to hug this cross. I'm going to brace it with everything that I have so that I can turn around and give abundant life to every other person on the planet, right? It's like, okay, you have the actual ability to transform your suffering.

Into something that blesses every other person that you meet for the rest of your life. Like, no one can decide whether or not that happens but you. And, and claiming that is, I think, that changed my life. And, and I think it changes anyone's life who's going through a particular struggle.

Joey: I think there's, there's such power in kind of looking beyond your own pain.

And there's this idea too, um, of like the helper's high. I, I'm learning about it recently, so I don't know a lot about it. But just how, like, there's research behind the fact that when you Look beyond your own pain and you help other people and the example I was reading was in like the context of like volunteering for some organization.

Let's say there's like literally documentable outcomes, benefits that come from [00:42:00] that. And so it takes this whole idea that like love is healing to like a whole new level because it literally is healing. And so I love that. That's beautiful. And I think that's like the right question to ask. Like, what now?

Like, what am I going to do with this hand? I've been dealt. What am I going to do with it? Because like you said, so many of us have been through you. Pain and trauma, you know, can fall into that victim mentality and just kind of stay stuck there. And what I've seen too in the people that I've walked with, as well as in my own life, is that so often I think our efforts at healing and growth can be become kind of fruitless.

Because of that, maybe hidden underneath the surface, like we're spinning our tires and mud and never really getting anywhere. And so we might be doing good things, like listening to podcasts, reading books, going on retreats, whatever. Because we want that transformation that we're talking about, we want to become that person.

But for some reason that gap is just not being closed as I'm curious, you know, you already mentioned a couple of things that I think are really helpful when it comes to that, but like, how do we actually transform, like what's worked in your life and what [00:43:00] advice do you give in terms of how do you actually transform and become that person that you want to be?

Jack: Yeah, we could do a whole podcast just on this exact question. Uh, yeah. And I'll talk about it from a, from a personal example, and maybe even just some, some work with some clients. Sure. I remember When I tried to start turning things around in my life, I was still in a lot of pain. And it was, you know, it was just, it was rough.

It was still in that rough period. And I remember my mom had a rough day and she, she left the house for whatever reason. She had to go run an errand or something. And I knew that she loved to end her day with tea and she was coming back late. And so I made her a cup of tea without her asking. And it was like, I don't know.

It's like she was four and realizing what Christmas is for the first time, you know, like it was that level of joy and appreciation like to this day, she will talk about that cup of tea that I made her and how and how impactful it was because she knew how much I was suffering that I thought of her, which she never really understood was how impactful that was for [00:44:00] me.

It's like I can do something good for someone else. I don't have to live in this cesspool that is my inner life and my inner thoughts and my own pain. I don't have to steep in this misery every second of every single day. I can actually do something small to bless someone. And so any proper answer on, on types of deep critical questions like the one you just asked has a both and component to it.

So it's like if you're in a rut. And you're feeling like crap and you are just miserable and you can't get out of bed in the morning, like, do something for somebody else, get on your feet, and that's enormously helpful, it's like I'm still a useful human being, you know, like I still have something to offer the world, that's a really useful thing to know, especially when you're in the dark part, then at the same time, Find a guide who is going to walk with you into the depths of the darkness of your own subconscious and your own inner life.

Find someone [00:45:00] who you trust who can help you. And go confront the inner demons. Like go do the inner work and not for you not because you know You're worth it and you're all these things even though you are but so that you can go out and actually bless other people One of the problems with modern therapy is it's like we'll just sit and talk about your feelings and sit in your own inner life And only talk about your inner life and never do anything with it.

It's like the purpose It's to become a self gift. Now, you might be sitting there being like, okay, I want to become a self gift. I want to do the inner work. I don't have anybody that I can go to. It's like, what do I do then? Well, there is something that you can do. If you look at the people who have achieved it.

Greatness in their life and they're all names. You're like, yeah, I've, yeah, I know that they've achieved greatness. Like you go mother Teresa, you go Gandhi, Alexander souls, a niche in like Abraham Lincoln. It's like you, you go to these people and you look at their life. They had a compelling vision of who they were trying to become.

So [00:46:00] let's just look at Gandhi. Gandhi's vision was to become like unto God. I want to become a man who made the invisible God visible. That's what Gandhi was trying to do. It's like, that's my objective. I have a compelling vision for my own personal character and the type of person that I want to be. I want to be God's hand and feet on earth.

That's my goal. That's my objective. And then he coupled to get that together with, I think there are the 11 vows of Gandhi. So I, I call this the moral code of being so it developed a moral code of being for him to be accountable to and for him to look every night and be like, okay, I'm trying to become this person.

These rules are actually capable of bringing out this vision to life. How am I doing on these rules? Right? Like system strive behavior. It's like those 11 vows were there. Gandhi's system that drove the behavior that led to the outcome, you know, if you're a business mind, you know, you're, you're thriving on this, right?

That led to the outcome that you're desiring, right? You start all the way, all the way [00:47:00] at the beginning. Now, you may sit in there and be like, becoming like unto God. That's really lofty. Well, look at someone like Alexander Solzhenitsyn. If you don't know Solzhenitsyn, he is credited with doing the majority of the work of taking down the Soviet Union from within the Soviet Union.

So Solzhenitsyn He was a political prisoner. He spent, I think he spent a decade in the gulags of Soviet Russia, which is hard labor in Siberia. And when he was in the prisons, in the gulag, suffering some of the worst suffering you can conceive of in humanity, it's top three, is the Soviet gulags, which still exists, by the way.

He's in this prison camp, eating this watered down soup and bread and doing hard labor in the frigid temperatures of Siberia. What he realizes is He has to own part of the blame for ending up where he ended up because he participated in the lies that led to communist Russia that allowed a system to be created for people like him to be imprisoned [00:48:00] without due process.

So he made a decision and this is really simple. He's like, I am going to become a man of truth. There will not be a single lie that will ever pass through me ever again. It's like a lack of truth. Created massive amounts of pain for me and everybody I'm in present with. So I'm going to become a man of truth.

So like, let's say you had a really, really mean dad, and the criticism that you feel, and just, the incapacity to do anything because you're just crippled by that constant criticism. It's like, okay, become the kindest person you possibly can. Don't let criticism flow out of your mouth. And then, that's the vision of who you want to be.

It's like, I want to be an incredibly kind person. Or, Jordan Peterson will say this, I want to be the kind of person everybody can rely on at my dad's funeral. Like, okay, that's a really noble vision. What's going to lead me there? And you don't have to pick the ultimate vision, you don't have to pick the ultimate thing.

Like, it's just start walking in the direction of a noble vision of who you could be, [00:49:00] and oftentimes that's enough to elevate your life.

Joey: It's still good. I love all of that. I love the vision component, finding a guide. And I love the idea that you just threw out that the guide doesn't need to be someone who is even alive right now.

If you're not ready for that, I think ultimately it is good to have someone who's mentoring you, is walking with you, who's able to like have real insight into your life. But yeah, we can learn, we can be guided through books, through podcasts, through whatever, um, just like you mentioned. And then, yeah, going back to Frankel, I just love that idea of, you know, Do something for someone else, do something for someone else.

Like, you know, as I know you would say, you know, Frankel essentially found that the thing that we want most as humans is, is meaning. And he defined meaning as like basically a deep reason to live that's bigger than yourself. And that's what I hear you saying. And his local therapy, which is essentially bringing people into, and feel free to add or correct anything I'm saying, but.

His logotherapy, which was essentially bringing people through that process of finding that compelling vision for the life and just finding a deep reason [00:50:00] to live that was bigger than themselves, was very effective. More effective than modern therapy, like you're saying. And, you know, he ran a clinic in Vienna.

Um, I know we've talked about this, Jack, but he ran a clinic in Vienna for, um, patients who were struggling with suicide. They wanted to kill themselves and it said that, you know, through local therapy, it was so effective that he never lost a single patient, which is so fascinating. And so, um, I think there is such power and, you know, while not neglecting yourself and your suffering, like we do need to heal, there is so much power and healing in that act of doing something for someone else and, and going beyond our own pain.

Jack: Yeah, I mean, I was one of the clients that I was working with who was sexually abused by a sibling and the client hadn't talked about it for 40 years and decided to talk about it. And a big reason why this individual didn't want to talk about it is because, like, I don't want to wallow in it. I just don't want to wallow in it.

I don't want to, I don't want to have to talk about it and all this stuff. But it was inhibiting this person's [00:51:00] ability to love, right? It was inhibiting their capacity to love. And so I, and be loved by other people. And I remember how much of an unburdening experience it was for this individual for me to be like, we're going to explore and enter deep into that experience of trauma so that you can draw meaning from it and that that meaning can can bring you to a place in your life in which you are better capable of To not only handle life, but be able to bring tremendous good to the rest of the world.

Like, there was this one woman that I knew near where I lived, I only met her twice. She went through incredibly difficult times. In the course of one year, she lost a child, she lost her husband, she lost both of her parents. And she had to take over the family farm. And she went through a process, internally, to draw so much meaning from it, that in the last 20 years of her life, she served at her local parish as the person that everyone would call, or not call, she would just show up.

in the [00:52:00] darkest moments of their life. So when a child died unexpectedly in the community, this woman, her Anita, Anita was her name, she would show up with pie. And oftentimes she was the only person who could sit in a room and help grieving parents make it through the day. She was oftentimes the only person who could walk into a room of someone who just lost a parent and help them feel understood and not alone in the world.

And so when she died, I mean, she was farm girl. Indiana, she did all the hidden things you do in a church, like clean the toilets and pick up the flyers on the floor and all the hidden stuff, turn the lights on, everything, nobody, you know, there's nothing visible about her. When she died, the entire county came out for a funeral.

Because at some point or another, they went through something difficult, and she showed up with Pi, and the kind of understanding that only comes from someone who drew meaning from their suffering. And it's like, the thing that she most wished never happened, has become her greatest gift to love people.

And that's [00:53:00] possible for literally anyone. Everyone, like literally everybody listening to this podcast right now, no matter the scale of the difficult thing that you've been through, it can become your superpower to love other people and to uplift other people. And the only person who gets to determine whether or not that's the case, like, is you.

It is you. 100%. It's you.

Joey: So good. I love it. And I, I think that that's a great place to end on. But before we do, I just want to ask about, um, yeah, I know you offer mentorship. So please tell us a bit about that. Like what it is that you offer and how people can find you online.

Jack: Yeah, absolutely. So you can, you can find me, you can find me in two places.

You can find me at Jack beers dot com or you can find me at the catholic mentor dot com. Jack beers dot com is a place for one on one, a group coaching. Uh, it's really meant for me to walk with you in, in a short season of your life, usually about six weeks. Uh, and I run people through a program called Rise, and it's really a system of self awareness and, and deepening your self awareness.

The [00:54:00] phrase I usually say is, um, know thyself so you can give thyself. So it's, it's sort of a six weeks program. six week boot camp with one on one coaching mixed into it, and you can find that in both sites in both places. If you're looking for specifically Catholic accompaniment, that's why you go to thecatholicmentor.

com, and that's a, that's a form of daily accompaniment, really an elevation of Catholic psychology. Spirituality and anthropology to help you kind of face the storms in your life and draw meaning from them

Joey: so good to truly be that guide. And man, I've learned a lot from you, even in this interview. So I can only imagine how helpful that mentorship would be.

And so I definitely encourage you guys to it. At least check that out, um, you'll learn more about it, get some information about what it would look like to, to work with Jack. Um, but Jack, just want to say, thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing your wisdom and your story with us. Um, I know we're all better for it.

And just in closing, just want to give you the final word, what final advice, encouragement would you leave to everyone [00:55:00] listening right now before we sign off?

Jack: Well, thank you, Joey. Uh, we've only gotten to know each other a little bit and I feel so blessed by you already. So I look forward to, to our relationship to deepen as well.

Joey: Likewise.

Jack: Last word is, uh, you can do hard things. You were made to do hard things, and you will become a shadow of who you could be if you don't.

Joey: There's so much that we discussed in this episode that it can be pretty easy to feel kind of overwhelmed by it all. And so my challenge to you is this, what's just one thing that really resonated with you in this conversation?

Just take action on that one thing today or this week. Make a simple plan to just act on that, whatever that looks like. Um, that's it. That's all you have to do. And so if you want to relisten to maybe figure out what the one thing is, feel free. But if you know it, just make a plan, take action on that one thing.

And I promise you, if you stay with it, you're going to get some results in your life. And if you come from a divorce or broken family, or, you know, someone who maybe does come from a divorce or broken family, We offer more [00:56:00] resources at Restore than just this podcast. Uh, those resources include things like a book, uh, free video courses.

They're free now. We might change that in the future. Um, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and built virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better. life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself, or maybe someone that, you know, just go to restored ministry.

com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken marriage, uh, feel free to share this podcast with them. Feel free to even text them now, uh, to say, Hey, you know, I listened to this.

I thought of you thought it might be helpful. I promise you, even if they don't maybe say it, they're going to be very grateful for you sharing it with them. I wish someone had done that for me years ago. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can [00:57:00] start where you are and change the ending.

#121: A Cure for Feeling Needy or Helpless | Margaret Vasquez

So many people from broken families struggle with feeling helpless or needy. Our efforts to heal or grow might even feel fruitless like tires spinning in mud that never gain traction. We put in effort in learning, but transformation isn’t happening. 

Whether that describes you or someone you know (like a friend, parent, or anyone else), this episode will help you!  In it, you’ll learn: 

• The simple solution to beat neediness and helplessness

• Why struggles are actually good for you

• The most important question you can ask to move beyond grief

Margaret’s Website

Dakota Lane Fitness

Buy Margaret’s Book: Fearless

Buy Margaret’s Book: Fearless

Buy Margaret’s Book: More Than Words

Get Margaret’s Course: Broken to Whole

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

[00:00:00] So many people like us who come from broken families struggle with feeling helpless and even needing, we might even feel like we're too much for the people around us and our efforts toward healing and growth might feel kind of fruitless. Like we're spinning our tires in mud, but we're never really getting anywhere.

Now, maybe that's not you, but maybe you know, someone who struggles in that area, a friend, a parent, a boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever, either way, this episode is going to help you in it. You're going to learn things like the simple solution to beat neediness and helplessness from a trauma therapist. Why struggles are actually good.

For you, what this looks like, if you have a disability, we answer the question, does grieving have a place? And the most important question that you can ask to move beyond grief. Again, if you've struggled with feeling like you're too much, feeling helpless, stuck or needy, or maybe you know someone who struggles in that way, this episode is for you.

It's for you. Stay with us.

 [00:01:00] Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 121. As we often say in the show, we're so happy that this podcast has been helpful and even healing for you.

We've heard so much great feedback. One listener said this. Only God knows where I would be if this ministry didn't exist. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out, eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach. We're going to Who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot in a [00:02:00] gym Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? Three things. One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy ripped dude. He's also a good virtuous man to not just caught up in his body and his looks to, he actually studied to become a priest for a little while.

And from that experience and his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body. We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free.

to love. And the third thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people, you know, get ripped, but to lead them to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated. And so if you desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this. [00:03:00] Dakota Lane changed my life, and the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have experienced, just go to DakotaLaneFitness. com or click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez. Margaret holds a bachelor's degree in theology and a master's degree in counseling, both from Franciscan University of Steubenville.

She is a licensed professional clinical counselor with supervisory designation, holds numerous trauma certifications, is certified in Myers Briggs, and is the founder and director of Sacred Heart Healing Ministries. For the past 18 years she has treated clients of all ages from all around the world.

She's appeared on numerous episodes of Women of Grace on EWTN as well as many radio shows and podcasts. She's the author of More Than Words, The Freedom to [00:04:00] Thrive After Trauma and Fearless, Abundant Life Through Infinite Love. She hosts the Wholeness and Holiness podcast, a weekly podcast on human and spiritual integration.

She provides healing missions. Uh, retreats, one week, uh, individual healing programs and intensive trauma therapy. Her passion is for all people to come to know the surpassing love of God. And lastly, she is the instructor of our video course at Restored called Broken to Whole Tactics to Heal from Your Parents Divorce.

And so if you're interested in that, I'll tell you more at the end, how you can get that it's free actually right now. It might change in the future, but I'll tell you more at the end of this episode. And by the way, in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here.

Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that this is not a religious podcast. If you don't believe in God, I would just challenge you to listen with an open mind. Um, even if you're to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit so much from this episode. If you do have kids around, I recommend just maybe putting in some earphones because we do talk about some [00:05:00] mature topics in this episode.

And finally, we do jump back and forth a bit between the mental and emotional aspects of this problem of neediness, helplessness. Um, and so in my mind, those are distinct different things. Uh, but in this conversation, we kind of meld them together. And so when you hear the word mental, you can also think of the word emotional too.

With that, here's my conversation with Margaret. Margaret, welcome back. So good to have you. It's always great to be with you, Joey. I wanted to dive right in. There's, I think this temptation we all face, all of us when it comes to healing and growth, and that is that we consume information, right? We listen to podcasts, we read books, we attend retreats, all really good things to gain knowledge, but we never really take action on what we're learning.

Like we don't transform, we don't apply what we've learned. And it's kind of crass, but I've heard some people say that You know, it's kind of like a mental masturbation where we get this high from learning, but it doesn't really lead to much. And so two questions there, what's happening here and why do we do [00:06:00] that?

Actually, even though it is crass, I like that, that explanation because it doesn't bear fruit and it just creates like a lot of emotion. You know what I mean? So just a lot of emotion. There's a lot of feeling going on, but like there's no fruit the same as masturbation. So, so there is a, to me it, it kind of fits.

So what's going on there. I, I kind of look at it, like come from a number of places. I actually had a person, this person was actually a friend, not a client, but. Um, said to me, now had been through definitely painful growing up, painful childhood, but this person actually said, no, it's not fair for me to have to basically, she was talking about taking care of herself emotionally.

Um, nope, it's not fair. I deserve to have been taken care of by somebody else as a child. And so I'm not going to take care of me now. And I was just like shocked that anybody would actually say, we're, we're not friends anymore. It was not based on that. There was, there's more to it than that. But, but I just was like, wow, how astounding that [00:07:00] somebody would actually be cognizant of that.

And then just deciding like, no, it's not fair. And so I'm not going to do that. I think for some people, I like to think that for people, it, It can maybe even more often not be something that they're consciously aware of and maybe that they feel like they're, um, like they can't take care of themselves.

Like they're, you know, incapable. Maybe it's more of that. I, I like to think that because it's hard for, hard for me to think somebody just decides like to dig their heels in and refuse, you know, so then it leads to outsourcing that care of our emotional selves to other people because my, my My need for emotional self care isn't going to go away.

My own personal growth and responsibility and the need for that isn't going to go anywhere. And if I'm not taking care of it myself, then gonna intentionally or unintentionally kind of be approaching the world with kind of, um, I'd look at it like constantly job posting. Right. Here's my, here's my unpublished classified ad of like, are you my, are you [00:08:00] know, or the, the little kid book, right?

Are you my mommy? Do you remember that book? The little bird, the little bird falls out of his nest and he's walking through and he's asking like this big bulldozer, like, are you my mommy? And he's like walking through like the world. Are you my mommy? We kind of end up walking through the world kind of with this attitude, like, are you my mom?

Are you my dad? Will you take care of me? Sort of thing. If we're not doing it ourselves, because that, I look at it like that need for, for self care, for kind of, for parenting doesn't go away. Just when we hit 18 or move out of our parents homes or whatever, but it becomes incumbent on us to do that ourselves.

Of course, finding the right resources. And, and of course, all of this would be it from my perspective, relying on, on the Lord's help, but then it's kind of taking on the mind of Christ towards that care to be that need for love directed to him first. But then I have to, like, actually change my self talk to line up with his, because if I'm going, like, God make me feel [00:09:00] loved, but then my constant self talk is I'm terrible and everybody's better than me and, you know, God couldn't really love me because if you knew how I'm, all the different, you know, ways I'm terrible, like, you know, you'd understand.

So we just deflect his love, right? So we kind of go to him with this, this big bowl, asking him to fill it, and we have a lid on it. You know, or can kind of look at it like our, our metaphorical love bucket, and we're just poking holes in it. And so, you know, he's pouring Niagara Falls into it, but at the end of the day, it's still empty because of all the holes I've jabbed in it.

So then we still end up feeling empty. And so then we turn to, you know, the person who's right in front of us to get that need met. 100%. And I, I think one thing to add there too is like, you said this so well, there is a real need there. It's just a matter of like, how do you go about filling that need?

We're not like putting that down. We're not saying, you know, you don't need other people in your life. We're just saying the relationships just need to be healthy. Right. And we need to go to God first. And then from there, you know, we can experience the love [00:10:00] of other people and that could be incredibly healing.

Um, but if things are upside down, then it just becomes this, you said before this vicious cycle where there's a lot of. Motion or, you know, we never like gained ground basically, there's a lot of like movement, but never gaining any ground and I think not only is it frustrating for the people in your life around you who might be like trying to help you, but it's also frustrating for you because it's like, man, I just seem like just stuck like I got and I might be moving my feet a lot, but I'm never moving forward.

Yeah, and you know, I remember being in that spot like, you know, before I went through trauma therapy, actually, because I was just in such an emotionally needy spot. And I didn't really understand how these I feel like we don't get taught how these things fit together, you know, but I'm working on a book on that.

But, um, Without understanding how these things work together, um, on a very, uh, just kind of, just even visceral, like, level, like, feeling such a desperate need for love, like, kind of being in that, in that place, like that job posting thing. it ends up leading to rejection [00:11:00] because that, that neediness, right?

And then that becomes, and I think it leads to rejection because others have their hands full taking care of their own emotional selves and their lives, right? And so when we kind of have that feeling like somebody's trying to get from me what I'm, I'm busy over here doing it for myself. Like you do it for yourself too.

And like, it'll be fine. Then we can relate to each other like adults and from a place of peace instead of you're trying to get from me what Only the Lord can do for you. And then you need to really, um, really receive and, and take on and, and kind of do for yourself as well. If we're not doing that, right, if we're outsourcing that to someone else, they're kind of, whether they're cognizant of it or not, it kind of makes us feel like our insides are twisting, you know, and we're like, it's kind of an icky feeling.

And so we just kind of, we inadvertently like, Push that person away. And so then to the, being the person on that end, it's a feeling of rejection. And, and so I think the cycle is then the person becomes [00:12:00] that much more, they don't understand. That dynamic. Right. And so then they really internalize the way their behavior is being responded to as being essential to who they are.

Does that make sense? Like, I'm rejectable. I'm not lovable. I'm like, no, you're fine. Like, just don't do that. Like, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I think it really creates like a vicious cycle. No, I couldn't agree more. And I think the experience and we are like, we're empathizing with people who've been there.

Cause I've been there too, where you just feel this immense amount of need. Like you feel the real need underneath it all and you just take it to the wrong source. Like I've, I've done that, but I think this experience of feeling like you're too much, I've heard people say that a lot. Like, I feel like I'm just too much, like no one can really handle me.

There can then be that, like you said, that regression where it's like, well, this is just the way that I am. And other people aren't strong enough to handle my stuff. Therefore, I'm doomed to this life of loneliness and, you know, self pity and all this, all this stuff. That's really, it's depressing and sad.

And [00:13:00] again, I've been there. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be like that. I think just understanding how it works then is really a game changer because the way I see it is like. We each plug into the Lord first, and I don't mean first, like, okay, first, like, that, that box is checked, now moving on to time to plug into somebody else.

No, it's like, that's a foundational source. And if we do that and staying connected in that way. Now he's going to be able to supply all of those emotional needs like infinitely more than we could ask or imagine and even if we don't feel it in a warm fuzzy way all the time, right? But the more I begin to like align my way of seeing myself with how he sees myself.

he sees me, then like St. Thomas Aquinas says, what's received is received according to the mode of the receiver, right? So if my mode is, I'm not lovable, I can participate in whatever workshops or listen to whatever homilies or talks or teachings or read whatever self help books or whatever. [00:14:00] And I'm never going to come to a different way of seeing myself because my mode is, I'm not lovable.

So I'll just deflect everything else like, well, if you knew my past or if you knew this or if you knew that, or I'm not like other people who are special or whatever, you know, and so then we end up not receiving that stuff. I also, I also think there's a way I remember this myself, like when I was in that, More of that, you know, needy.

I hate that word because I was in that spot for so long. But when I was in that spot, like, I remember it seemed like there was, um, almost like a different species of people that it was just easy for. Do you know what I mean? And like, I wasn't like those people. And so those people needed to take care of people like me, you know, or something.

Right. And then the more you really kind of do this internal work and realize like, okay, kind of, there's a, I think there's a way where in the beginning it's a lot of work, right? But the more you get that in place, then it becomes like having pipes running water into your house, [00:15:00] right? When When the pipes are first being laid, I'm sure that's a lot of work.

I've never done anything like that, but I'm sure it's a lot of digging and, and like, oh my goodness and heavy and, and all the stuff. But once it's going, then, okay, there's a flow to it. And it's not so much work going forward. Right. But, um, but it's not like that, that person who has the flow going is, is in any way inherently different than anybody else.

And. If, you know, somebody that let's say the have like, okay, I'm going to be really nice and go outside of myself and take care of this person in an ongoing way. Not that we, you know, aren't generous and charitable and whatever, but in an ongoing way, the fostering of that dependency does no big picture kind of favor for that person who's in that have not spot.

If anything, it just is going to. Unintentionally, but like reiterate the message that you're not like me, you're not capable and [00:16:00] peace and contentment is contingent on me instead of on, you know, on the Lord and your ability to, um, to really foster that relationship and take on the mind of Christ for yourself and, and that kind of thing.

So good. There's so much that I want to comment on. One of the things I just wanted to say was, I think what goes along with this neediness and relying on people in, you know, unhealthy ways, is that we are almost like afraid of solitude. I think solitude gets kind of a bad rap because it's so important for growth, right?

We have to like sit alone, like with ourselves and like you said with God too, and kind of face ourselves. And I noticed in myself when I was kind of in these ruts of down spiraling into self pity and neediness, I was kind of trying to avoid that. I was trying to avoid facing myself because it was scary, it was intense or whatever.

And I think like when that's your posture of like, no, no, no, I'm going to take this fight, like, where it needs to go. I'm going to face myself. I'm going to work on myself. I'm going to actually transform. At that point, [00:17:00] plugging the right people into your life who can help you accomplish that is beautiful.

Like, I've had mentors come along me, like, spiritual directors, therapists, like, who then helped me achieve that. But I'm not looking to them to do it for me. And, and like the author John Eldredge says, this kind of dynamic can often happen with men and women. Um, where men, if they don't know that they're men, if they haven't like received that strength, that affirmation from other men, then they'll often go to women seeking that strength.

For the woman to like give him that strength. And it's just not positive. It's not how we're made. We can't do that. And so there's just this like, Constant, vicious cycle of like, you know, I need you to be, like you said, my mom and give me strength and affirmation when it's like, no, you need to go to God and other men in your life to receive that strength.

And then you have that strength to offer to the people in your life, especially, you know, like your spouse, which I think is really, really good and beautiful. And so I think that there's a difference in posture when you go to mentors to kind of, you know, fill the need for you versus help you fill the need [00:18:00] yourself.

Yeah, and, and I would even say, like, so here's a feminine perspective on that, but I think you can even see that, um, not so much as the man, um, sometimes, right, but I'm just saying, like, what initially comes to mind when you say that is, like, kind of a, kind of a weak man's kind of like, you know, kind of more wimpy or whatever.

But it, it can be insidious, right? It can also be the man who, who seeks out really weak women always has to be with a damsel in distress, right? I have to find somebody to rescue because that makes me feel strong. And I see that, I see that a lot. I see a lot of times like men are just Men just being attracted to like weakness because, because it makes him feel strong.

But the sad thing in that is like, okay, if she ends up getting help and really becoming the fullness of who God's created her to be, that's going to change up that dance. And is it going to so threaten you and, and, you know, destroy the relationship because you don't want anybody being locked into, you know, we can, a way that's not [00:19:00] who the who God created him to be, right?

We're all called to grow into the full stature of Christ, you know. That's so good. And I think we're hitting the right balance here because we, I want to, for anyone who's stuck in this situation right now, I want you to know, like, we feel you, like we get where you are. We've been there, like, we're not putting you down in any way, but we love you too much to leave you there.

We want to help you. Get to the spot where we know that you're going to be more functional, healthier, and then thrive and experience a lot of joy. Like, there's a lot of joy that comes along with learning how to stand on your own two feet, having the backbone, being able to, you know, relate to others in like healthy ways and not go to them to just, again, be constantly pouring into this kind of endless hole, this bottomless pit.

Right. And the, and the lies, um, that that cycle. Tells you isn't fair to you because they're because they're lies. Like, it's not the truth. There's nothing inherent about you and who you are. Right. And so, so just understanding how these things fit together, I think, can kind of pull the curtain back on that.

I mean, like, what? Like, this isn't who I am. Like, you know, if it [00:20:00] wasn't who you are, and it's not who I am. And like, there must be There must be something to this because we were both in those spots and now, you know, not that there isn't still ongoing, you know, growth, hopefully there is for everybody as long as we're breathing, right?

I think that's good news, though, you know, not bad news. And so just understanding how it fits together and that, you know, if people are relating to you in a way that feels like consistently rejecting, you know, then it's not about who you are, like plug into the Lord first. Honestly, you know, there was a point number of years ago, well, early years of practice, I remember thinking like, okay, the people in my world, because I'm, single and live alone.

The people in my world who need from me are really basically clients. So if I'm walking into the office to see somebody, that's somebody who's, who's in need, which is true, but it came to realize like, no, every time I walk outside of my house, there's people in need, you know? [00:21:00] And so it doesn't become my job to take care of them.

Like I'm, I'm, I'm not the Messiah, of course, still being kind and charitable and just kind of understanding that, that a lot of people are coming from a place of, even if they might seem like the ones that are the haves, right? You know, relational or emotional haves at any given time, every day has.

Troubles enough of its own as scripture says, you know, and there's everybody's fighting a great battle. You know, another famous quote, you know, kind of thing, but just a always kind of, in my mind, I picture it like pipes, right? Like if I, if I keep the end of my pipe, like connected to the Lord, then I look at myself as the desire.

To be like a conduit of grace, but it's his grace. It's not my grace. If I'm supposed to be a source of grace, I'm tapped out before I get out of bed. You know what I mean? Like there's none there. But if we're plugging into the Lord, then anybody, even the people who feel like they're in that have not spot, we [00:22:00] can get to a place of feeling like we're starting with the needle on full instead of on empty.

You know, and I think that's really possible for everybody. No, I totally agree. And I think like, yeah, knowing those healthy limits is so good at both for yourself and in relationship to other people. Um, yeah. And it ends up again, making you healthier, happier. It's so good. And it just opens up. Uh, doors that maybe you don't even think are possible to open.

You don't even know because you haven't been there yet, but I promise it's, it's worth it. But, uh, one final analogy. And then I wanted to share something from kind of the art world, uh, on this topic. So one analogy I like to think of when it comes to this, like, how do you, you know, kind of rely on people in an unhealthy way?

And I think athletics is a great analogy. So if you think about it, you know, I was a baseball player for years, play different sports like football, volleyball, things like that. But it's like, you know, the coaches were there to help me. Yeah. But they weren't going to lift the weights for me, you know, they weren't going to like run the sprints, they weren't going to field the ground balls, they weren't going to spend hours in the batting cage, like, I had to do that.

They were going to be there to like show [00:23:00] me, um, you know, they were going to be there to like support me, to help me, to, to guide me, um, but they weren't going to get in there and do it for me. And I remember hearing this quote from Dave Ramsey too, he said, you know, God feeds the birds, but he doesn't throw the worms in the nest.

Like you got to get after it. And I think, I think there's so much truth to that. And I think that could feel difficult for some people if you're like really in a tough rut. But, um, but it is, I think taking that ownership and being like, okay, maybe you were dealt a tough hand in life, but it's like, you know, I don't have a say necessarily over what happened to me.

But from this moment on, I am taking ownership of the solution of my life. Like, I'm not going to let that. Write my story. Like I want to write my own story. And I think there's a lot of beauty there. And a lot of people I've seen who've like transformed their lives, like they take that perspective. And one of my recent guests, Stacy, she said something like, um, broken is what happened to me, not who I am.

So often we walk through life thinking like, well, I'm just really broken and I'm always going to be like this. And, you know, again, there's a point to grieving. We'll get to that a little bit [00:24:00] later, but at some point we got to like, you know, get after it, move on. Yeah. Yeah. And shame on your coach. If they did do the train, the sprints and the batting cage and everything for you, because it cripples you and they're just getting stronger and stronger and stronger.

So there's a quote, I'm 99 percent sure the, the person this is attributed to is a guy named Frank layman, Frank P layman, not sure who he is, but I just remember coming across it at one point and it says the kids, the world. Almost breaks become the ones most likely to change it. And it's just, it's beautiful.

Isn't it like that having, having been one of those kids, like it's that just like tugs at my heart every time. But I think there's something to that. I think there's a lot of hope in that. If you feel like you're somebody who's in that spot, then that means like. You have a secret insight into the world and pain in a way that God can really use, you know, for you to be a very particular conduit of grace or healing or, you know, whatever it is [00:25:00] in, in the lives of others or, you know, those around you or through your ministry.

No, so good. And that like gave me the chills, that quote, and it fires me up because like, yeah, I want to be that person, right. For other people just to speak vulnerably. And yeah, no, it's beautiful. Uh, switching from sports to art. So I think one of the other aspects to this whole struggle is that there's a lot of, um, comfort.

in the familiarity. Like, like there's this weird thing that we kind of are comfortable in our own misery. Sure. Um, even if it's something that's bad for us, it's not leading us to a better place. And so, um, the, the rapper NF, he's like this clean rapper. He has a song called happy. Are you going to wrap this?

I think you should wrap it, Joey. So it's him, you know, singing actually to God of all people. So he's singing to God and in the song he raps these lines, which I won't make you all suffer through for me, but, but it's, it's really, really good stuff. So he says, he says, I don't know why, but I feel more comfortable living in my agony, watching my self [00:26:00] esteem go up in flames, acting like I don't care.

When anyone else thinks when I know truthfully, That, that's the furthest thing from how I feel, but I'm too proud to open up and ask you to pick me up and pull me out this hole I'm trapped in. The truth is I need help, but I just can't imagine who I'd be if I was happy. Yeah. So, so anyway, there's a few different things going on there.

Like, obviously like the one point of like, it's not bad to ask for help. We're just saying to do it in the right way. So he kind of hits on that. I just wanted to clarify that point. Um, but really that like, man, we're just comfortable. And kind of the status quo, and I think it's really important to break out of that.

So how do we break out of that and take action? I think taking action is breaking, is how we break out of it. I don't, I don't know that there's ever a point when it just becomes easy in the beginning, right? It becomes easier by doing it. It's like lifting, right? Like lifting weights, the weight becomes lighter.

The more you lift it, but if it's something that's going to cause you to grow when you walk up to it, it's heavy initially, right? You have to have to start pumping [00:27:00] it. And anytime we, you know, especially going back to the sports analogy, having played sports as well, we don't have muscle memory of something yet.

Right. Feels really awkward, right? It's like, am I doing this right? Like, you know, I don't know. It just, you're having to concentrate on, you know, batting, right? Your stance, where are my feet? How am I holding my elbows? How am I following through? Like, okay. Oh, watch the ball. That's a thing too. Like trying to put all these things together at the same time and not get beamed in the head, you know, and like, whatever.

But the more you do it, the more natural it becomes. And to the point where it's just, yeah, you don't even have to think about it. You just, you just get up there and you're, you know, it just feels right and flows, you know, and, um, actually becomes relaxing and enjoyable, you know, and then pretty soon you don't even, somebody else has to point it out to you that you're, that you're doing it, you know, and maybe not in terms of batting, but living in a, in a healthy place or from that place of wholeness.

I [00:28:00] think if we wait, if we, Wait to want to do it or wait to feel equipped to do it or comfortable doing it, like, we'll just be, we'll just keep on waiting, you know, I think it's, yeah, it's just beginning to just, yeah, just starting, just starting and you tweak as you go and you grow as you go and learn more, but you got to start, you got to start.

Yeah. And no, that's so good. And I think, um, That's like the scariest thing for people. It's just starting. I could use another analogy like the business world, right? It's a, it's a scary thing to start a business. Um, it's intimidating. There's a complexity to it. There's all these steps that you probably know nothing about.

And a lot of people, they like wait, right? There's risk. Like, yeah, you can lose money. Like you can, you know, maybe put yourself in a really difficult situation economically. Like all these things are so much. That goes into it, but it's, um, you know, a lot of people then have this perspective of like, well, I'm just going to wait till I'm ready.

And the really interesting paradox is like, you're never actually going to be ready. The only way that you'll be quote [00:29:00] unquote ready is by actually like taking action and like learning what you need to know in order to take just like the next step. And then you, then you knock down that barrier and then you go to the next barrier and knock down that barrier.

And then you go to the next one. And that's basically entrepreneurship. It's just like a load of just like knocking things down. And then you're, you know, you look up and you're like, Oh wow, I didn't feel like I was ready. I just did it anyway. And as I did now, I see like, wow, I'm like this far up the mountain and this is great.

And I got a lot further to go. But man, if I was waiting to be, you know, Get maybe, you know, one analogy would be like to get all this like perfect training or have like all the perfect people in your life who could tell you exactly what to do in any given situation. It's like, good luck. You really need to just like, you know, again, not saying that advice and guidance and learning isn't a good thing, but if it's just substituted for action, you're just digging yourself into a hole.

Yeah, I mean, something we've all experienced, whether we're business owners or athletes or not, right, is [00:30:00] like being a baby. And like crawling and then walking, like if a baby just sits here and ponders crawling and, and, you know, mommy plays a lot of YouTube videos about how to crawl properly. Like it's never gonna, they're never going to get across the room until they start doing it, you know, even though, you know, I know you have a little girl, so like, you know, first baby has their butt stuck way up in the air and they're like trying to, they can't manage their body weight, you know, and so they, push themselves forward.

Maybe they bonk their head as they, you know, haven't quite figured out how to move their arms in, you know, synchronicity with their legs and that bilateral kind of motion or what, but it's by doing it that, that we've, that we learned to do it. So you have done it before, like everybody listening to this has done it before, you know.

As long as it's somebody who's already crawled. No, no. So good. And I want to circle back to an important point of like disability at some point. We'll come back to that in a little bit later, but two, two things I wanted to mention on the side of like being the coach or the parent, right. Um, [00:31:00] you actually have to let your kids struggle, which is hard.

Like, there's this real temptation when you're, you see someone you love who's struggling to let them kind of continue going down that path. And it's really important, like, when your kid's learning to crawl or walk, like, they're gonna take some falls. Like, the goal, you know, there, at least as a parent, which is a little bit of a different role, is like, you kind of want to make the environment somewhat safe so that they're not gonna, like, get really hurt.

You know, to the point where that would just be damaged to them. Right. But if they feel some pain, if they feel some hurt, as opposed to like the harm that we're talking about, um, then, then that's not a bad thing and that's something you just have to kind of go through. And so, um, yeah, I think that's, that's a hard lesson on the being on the side of someone who wants to help, which I know we have people like that listening now too.

Um, but the other thing I was going to say is. When it comes to like just starting. So yeah, you're right. Like there's people who will read books about any number of skills, like, you know, playing the violin. If we want to throw another analogy, it's like, great. Like you can read and watch videos and do all that thing, but all that stuff.

But if you just pick up the violin and start playing, you're going to learn way more. And then that actually, [00:32:00] that stuff will actually become useful than if you were to just like, you know, continue just learning, learning, learning. And the other thing I was going to say, I think a lot of people get discouraged to even act because they look around them and they see people who are like so much further ahead and they compare themselves.

And, and the comparison leads them not to motivation where like, Oh, wow. I admire what they've achieved. I want to achieve that too. I'm going to kind of try to learn from them and do it myself. Um, it, it can really lead to like, well, I'm never going to be like that. Or they were so much further ahead. How could I ever catch up?

And, uh, I think, you know, one quote I heard is like, don't compare your behind the scenes with everyone else's highlight reels, because you're seeing someone who's likely putting a lot of effort over a lot of time, or maybe they just had like a different environment growing up, whatever had, maybe they started a little higher in the mountain.

And so we can't just like have that comparison. The comparison should just be used for inspiration. And then it's like, no, now I'm just going to fight my battle. Uh, the only person I'm competing against is myself. And I'm just going to keep trying to get better and better and better slowly. And that's another thing too.

It's like the slow progress, like so [00:33:00] much of. I mean, maybe this is just American culture, but I think that applies around the world. A lot of times it's like, we just want to see results instantly. It's like, okay. I mean, if you go to the gym for a week, like your body's not going to transform. You go for a month.

Your body's not going to really transform. You might get a little stronger. You go for six months. Okay. You're going to transform a bit, but it's not going to be like completely different. You go for a year. Okay. Now, now we're starting to see more results. You go for years. Now we're seeing like an incredible transformation.

But we all want to do like 30 days or like a couple months and see these incredible results. That's just not how it works. Yeah. Talking about the comparison thing, like it makes me think of what you and I were talking about before we started recording and that was my concussions, right? So just that I had had nine concussions, um, all sports and car accidents and didn't realize how much I was affected by those.

But just recently having treated with a functional neurologist. And having, like, amazing results [00:34:00] from that, then, like, what people probably didn't know about me before was, like, I couldn't read. I didn't read going through college. Thank the Lord I'm an auditory learner. But, you know, somebody sees, like, you know, People relate to me sometimes as like, Oh, like you're on a certain sort of pedestal, you know, and you're like these people would say, have you read and that's all they'd have to say to my mind.

I'd be like, Nope, they wouldn't even have to say the name of the book. I'd be like, is it on an audible? You know, I've written a couple of books. I had to write the second one when the pandemic happened because I needed such uninterrupted time because it was. Words made sense coming out of my head, but I couldn't read over them to assess, okay, or pick back up when I left off, like, what was I saying and jump in?

They made no sense going in. So I had to have completely uninterrupted time to like, kind of dump it all out. But then even that going over edits and like, you know, is this a better way to say this or that? I don't know, because I don't know what I was saying to begin with. So, but you know, when, [00:35:00] Not that they're great works of erudition or anything or, or war and peace or something, but, but people see, you know, you've written a couple of books or you're a therapist, you have, you know, you're on podcasts or whatever.

Yeah, I was riding the struggle bus like big time. I couldn't read, you know, my goodness. So yeah, so it's, it's amazing. Like, like exactly like you were saying about like seeing the highlight reels and not what's going on on the backside, like it's really struggling through, but by the same token, the Lord allowed that struggle, right?

Until 54 years old. And he said, when you're talking about parents or coaches, like letting people struggle, that's how God did. I look back at it now, I'm like, wow, I feel like so charged up for like, oh my goodness, like glad that I didn't just kind of sit and be like, oh, well, I can't do it. And because, you know, it's kind of like, right when you get into the, um, when you're on deck as a baseball player.

What's that little ring that you, that you drop on the bat that like adds weight to it. Right. [00:36:00] So, okay. Yeah. Right. So it makes it heavier. Right. So then when you get up and you actually are swinging, like you can like, bring that bat around, like really forcefully because you were trying to do it like where it was like a lot more challenging and now it feels easier.

Right. So, so I kind of look at it like struggle struggle is a good thing, but I think we should normalize. Struggle like struggle should be bad because we're not struggling in some some way like we're not growing, you know No, 100 percent and I I was listening to a podcast recently by like, uh, I think it was a maybe a neurobiologist Anyway, he was talking about a part of our brain that literally doesn't get activated unless we're pushing beyond our limits And that, and that part of our brain, I can't remember the details, I'm sorry, but that part of our brain is connected to like longevity, like how long we live in our life and like our ability to be productive and just be healthy people.

And so like that, that's such a good thing to struggle, like you said, and in the right context. Yeah, I [00:37:00] think the only way to not struggle is complacency. Yeah. Right? Like, cause there's always something to grow in, some area to grow in, you know. And one, one tip here, one tactic is like, if you are stuck in that rut of complacency and apathy and just like, you know, not able to take action, or you feel like you're not able to take action, you always are able to take action.

But you feel like you're not able to take action. I would maybe look at the people you're surrounding yourself with. Like, are they people who are maybe similar in the sense that they're kind of complacent and not taking action too. And then if you kind of slowly try to surround yourself with people, try to learn from people who are maybe doing what you want to do or be Who you want to become, something amazing will happen.

Like you literally will start kind of rising to that level over time. It doesn't happen all at once. Um, but there's even like data on this. I don't have the study in front of me, but you end up making like similar money to like your closest, like five friends, which is like bizarre if you think about it, um, Um, and I think there's something similar, like when it comes to fitness too, like if you're spending time around [00:38:00] people who like drink beer all the time and just like, don't take care of their bodies, you're probably going to end up being like that, as opposed to, you know, someone who spends time with people who like work out regularly and, you know, they eat clean and all that stuff.

So I think that's one kind of practical, cause I want to take this into the practical now too. Um, but before we maybe get further into that, some people might be thinking like, well, what about disabilities? I think this is an important nuance that we add here and I know maybe it's not an easy answer, but there are people who have legitimate disabilities.

Um, like we're not just talking about like maybe learned helplessness or victim mentality, which I know that's kind of in the tone of the conversation, but we're looking more at like, you know, um, I, you know, someone who may be with Down syndrome would be maybe an extreme example. Um, but I think maybe in the middle is a little bit more of a gray area and people might even get a diagnosis about something And then they maybe let that become the label and then know there's like danger and all that too.

So yeah, talk us through all of that. Like, what if, what if someone truly does have some sort of a disability? How do they then take what we're saying and, and act on it? Do you mean [00:39:00] like emotional disability, physical disability? Like what in a particular case? Thing you have in mind? Yeah. I mean, we could go any direction with this, but I guess since we're talking about like the emotional side, let's focus a little bit more on that.

And I don't know if, you know, something like bipolar disease would be something to throw in there, or maybe that's too extreme of an example, but yeah, just something where people can point to something else and kind of maybe say, well, I have this, therefore I can never become that. Yeah. I just look at diagnoses as they're just, um, they're a word that's used to describe a collection of.

Ways a person is struggling, right? I just look at, I look at a diagnosis as like, it's, um, it's a word that describes like how a person's doing. It's not who they are, right? Because you can think about people, even people under like, a disability. arduous circumstances or struggling in really very limiting ways and yet making huge impacts on the people around them by who they are.

And I think that's kind of maybe to take what [00:40:00] we're, what we're talking about, like kind of brings it together is like the, Taking action can sound a lot like about doing, but whatever we've seen is like when we get the being right, the doing flows and, and we as mental health, we are the first people to offend against this because we'll talk about dysfunction and I think dysfunction is, I'm trying to keep it clean, , but it's not accurate.

It's like, it's, it's a faulty place to start, right? Like dysfunction, like we should talk about dis being. Or, or dis essence or something, because that's the problem. When, when we get the being right, the doing flows, right? Like the Lord comes and talks about the Beatitudes. He's, he doesn't have to focus on the Ten Commandments.

He knows if we're living the Beatitudes, like the Ten Commandments are taken care of, you know, or like in therapy. Um, usually the beginning of the week, if I'm working with a child and I ask the parent, like, you know, what's going on, they'll describe the behavior. But the end of the week when I'm like, you know, what's going [00:41:00] on, they'll say, he's just so peaceful.

He's just so loving. I don't have to say like, is he still throwing tantrums and breaking things? And, you know, I mean, it's kind of, they'd look at me like I had three heads. Like, did you not hear me say? He's so peaceful, you know, and I think that if we focus more on our being, then the doing gets taken care of, right?

It'll flow. That makes sense. And so in that sense, like we're not limited, like our being would be how we would approach whatever diagnosis or whatever disability or whatever we have. There's still a you that is immutable in goodness and in the ability to strive towards being more. you know, plugged into the Lord.

I mean, even if a person just focuses on really receiving God's love and lining up their thoughts of, you know, I like to tongue in cheek say, if you disagree with how God sees you, you're probably the one who's in error. Like, probably just going to go out on a limb there, right? So if we even just focus on [00:42:00] that as I'm going to try to align how I see myself, how I relate to myself in terms of my self talk and self care more with how the Lord sees me.

And like, I think that's something that we're all capable of regardless of physical limitations or diagnosis or whatever. Right? And like, the more we're. plugged into that. I mean, God's all powerful and God is love. And the more we're plugged into his love and really receiving it, it's transformative, you know?

So I figure let him do the heavy lifting. Yeah. No, there's, there's a bunch of lessons in that. Um, one is we can prescribe or get our identity from, or describe ourselves, I guess. Based on a condition or an experience alone, like you're saying, and that's really what diagnoses are, right? It's just saying, well, you have these symptoms and therefore this is the condition that goes along with those symptoms.

Like I mentioned, bipolar disease or something like that. But you're right. You can't, you wouldn't like walk around and say, I am a bipolar man. Like maybe some people would say that, but this is kind of a weird thing to say. It's [00:43:00] not accurate in my mind. Can I jump on that? Because people. People do that regularly.

They'll say my bipolar or my anxiety or whatever. And even though that might be a common way to talk, like, it makes me bristle because I feel like that's, it's not who you are. And it's really dangerous to like, to cling to that in such a way that's, um, you know, Like ownership, you know, like, why would you want to own that in some sort?

I'm not saying be in denial about it. Okay. I'm struggling with anxiety, but I think that's, that sounds far different. And I think that even just the, what it kind of affects within the person is far different than saying my anxiety. It's like, are you aware there's a you that's immutable that's still going to remain like when the anxiety is gone or is like how you see yourself so wrapped up with your anxiety that we kind of have to pry it out of your, out of your hands, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I follow you. I think it just begins to form how we see ourselves. And, um, so again, not saying being [00:44:00] in denial about something, but as far as owning it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that's a good exercise where, you know, think through kind of how you would. Maybe describe yourself to something like a friend or someone you're meeting, or even just how you maybe think about yourself.

But I found it easier if there's like some sort of external person, maybe you're talking to and think through like, okay, how would I describe myself and try to differentiate between the things that are true to your identity. For example, you know, I'm a man, I'm American. I come from an Italian bloodline.

I, you know, all these things I could say that are just true to my identity compared to those things that maybe are just things that happened to you. Like I'm a child of divorce. Which, I kind of have a love hate relationship with that term, because it just describes something I've been through. It doesn't slap an identity on me, though it sounds like it does.

So I think differentiating between the two, um, is maybe a good exercise for people to do, if you guys want to. And then the other thing I was going to say, too, I want to nuance, I think, the action and being thing a little bit more for people. Um, I love what you're saying, and I think it's so true. I guess the one thing that I see maybe a little bit differently, [00:45:00] or just again, it's more of a nuance, is that There's often action needed to clarify the being, right?

Because even in the example, and I know you'd agree with this, but even the example of like the young person you were helping who, you know, their parent came in and was describing the dysfunction compared to the being at the end, the action that was between that change, that transformation was actually working with you, right?

And they were doing the work themselves, like the young person. You were just their guide and mentor, right? Um, but I think that's kind of an important distinction. So if someone's gonna just maybe looking in the mirror and being like, okay, like this is who I am, this is who I am. I think you're only going to get so far.

Um, there are certain actions that may be aligned with the identity that you, that that's true to you. Like, you know, I don't want to throw, you know, Too many more analogies around, but you know, thinking of like, there's a difference between being someone who like goes to the gym to someone who's like into fitness.

Like it's kind of becomes after so many actions, it eventually kind of is almost like integrated into your character. It becomes part of your being, so to speak. So I think there is like this interplay between action. And being, and I [00:46:00] think, and yeah, I know you'd agree with that, but I think it's important for everyone listening to think of it like through practically like, okay, how do I exactly change my being like, it sounds like we need to learn the truth about who we are.

That's important. That's knowledge. But then, you know, how do we then kind of make sure that we see ourselves that way and not some other way. Yeah, I think so. A couple things come to mind. One would be like, I think you had mentioned like that solitude can be very challenging. Right? So I would think like, and this is something that's that was a big game changer for me.

And it was like internal stance. So even though it was invisible, and it was about being, but it was actually doing something, it just wasn't like external action. So it was not external action. It was like, If I'm in a place of whether it's really having like good news to celebrate or something difficult that I'm suffering, to like go to the Lord with it first and share it with him first before I looked for, you know, the consolation or the joy of sharing it with somebody else.

Wow. Not that it's bad to do that. I'm [00:47:00] not saying that it's bad to have. human support and relationships, but it's the primacy of that relationship. It begins to build a foundation of his reliable and sense of intimacy by, with him and a sense of being known by him and that kind of thing as really like primary and foundational.

So, so it is more about being, even though it is action, right? You know what I'm saying? And another thing I think is to, if instead of, if there's like the, you know, that tendency to compare myself to people on the outside and somehow find myself lacking, then it would be to like set up incremental goals.

Like the goal doesn't have to be, you know, just being this in this super like great emotional spot. And I look like how I perceive these other people like, no, make the, make the goals like incremental, you know what I mean? Make them where it's just, did I turn to the Lord first? Like, right? Did I, did I turn to him first, right?

It doesn't have to be anything else because I can [00:48:00] control that. I think too often we can look at the outcome or the result that we don't necessarily have control over as opposed to looking at our effort and setting goals having to do with effort. No, I love that. That makes a lot of sense. It's like, okay, if you go back to weightlifting, it'd be like, I want my bicep to be.

This many inches. Well, okay, good luck. Like you don't know what's in your genetics or not, right? So you can contribute with, you know, diet and exercise, but you don't have control over how big your bicep is going to be. Like you don't, you know, but you have control over, am I going to go to work out this many times?

Am I going to eat right? Am I going to, you know, This many times a week or whatever, right? Like, so, um, so set goals by the effort instead of assessing it by the outcome. Okay. No, that's really good. And I'm sure there's so much more we can say, but I want to just kind of circle back to the whole disability thing.

I think one important distinction there is like, even if you're maybe so quote unquote, like handicapped in some way, or you feel handicapped in some way, it's like still do your best still, you know, [00:49:00] still like, again, try to compete against yourself, become better tomorrow than you are today. And I think a great example of this is I know just back up a little bit.

I do. I've heard of people. I don't know them personally who do have like bipolar disease, a disorder, sorry. And they are living like very like good lives. They're like, almost like, I guess you can say they're thriving, like they're able to, I hate the word manage it, but in some ways they're able to like, live with that thing that is maybe holding them back in some way, and I know this is a bigger conversation because I, like, you would probably think that well, if they maybe healed the trauma behind it, maybe that symptom or that condition would like, Wrap up all together.

That's a separate conversation, . So maybe this is a bad, uh, condition to pick, but No, no, that's fine. Yeah. I think there still are people, I mean, yeah, it's the ideology of meaning. Some people can be diagnosed with bipolar and it might not be an accurate diagnosis, but that's not to say the diagnosis doesn't exist at all.

Right? Yeah. But, but you can still live like a really good and beautiful and meaningful life. That's my whole [00:50:00] point. It's like, you sure absolutely don't, don't make that an excuse for not. You know, trying or not living like a good life. You still can. There's people who do. Yeah. In the show Reacher, actually, I don't know if people have seen that, you know, there's maybe some questionable content in it, but it's on Amazon Prime.

The show Reacher, like Tom Cruise did some movies years back about this, like, army investigator who, you know, Becomes a civilian. And anyway, he just like goes on and like solves these like crimes and things, but there's a show now with this actor who's just this enormous guy. And anyway, he's a great actor, but I just learned recently, I was listening to an interview.

Uh, he has bipolar and he is just like, from what I see, at least in some areas of his life, he's like kicking back, like he's doing really well. So it's really cool to like, look at people like that and see, okay. Sure. Even with maybe a little bit of a hand behind your back or something, you can still do really well.

And on that note, I just wanted to just share with people, there's this Navy SEAL. His name is Ryan Jobe. And cause again, people, I think we all can fall into this victim mentality and just think, well, I can't, I can't win. I'm just stuck. I just, you know, might as well just give up. And this [00:51:00] Navy SEAL, Ryan Jobe, he was in Iraq, you know, and they were clearing buildings one day when he got hit in the face with a sniper's bullet.

Okay. Rough situation. I didn't kill him, but in time he learned, like, he was completely blind. He, he wouldn't be able to see again, and he really, at that moment, could have just given up. Like, he truly could have. Like, it would have been, people, we all probably would have given someone of a pass, right?

Because of what he had been through. So he's, he's blind. Um, but he refused. He said, nope. Like, I'm not gonna give up. I'm not gonna let this condition, I'm not gonna let this injury define me. Like, I still want to live a good, beautiful, full life. And so, as a blind man, he did incredible things. He summited Mount Rainier, which is like over 14, 000 feet.

People, a few people, like, die every year climbing this. To give context, as a blind man, he did it. You need specialized gear. There's ice, typically. Like, it's, it's not an easy thing. He climbed the thing. He trained for a triathlon. Um, he earned his bachelor's degree with a 4. 0 GPA. He [00:52:00] successfully hunted an elk, uh, as a, as a blind man.

Uh, he married his girlfriend and, and they had a child. And so like hearing Ryan's story, it's like, well, yeah, his story could have ended very differently. But, but he just said, Nope, I'm not going to be a victim. I'm not, I will. Let me just clarify that he was a victim of, you know, an enemy fighter shooting him, but he said, I will not remain a victim.

I think there's so much power in that. And your favorite part's the elk, right? Yeah. Or the Navy SEAL part. I just love that. So Margaret, I feel there's so much more we can say, I guess, um, in closing up the conversation, just want to touch a little bit on grief. So I know through all of this, we're not saying that.

You know, if you've been through trauma, you can just kind of skip over it and just kind of toughen up and deal with it and move on, you know, uh, does grieving have its place? Yeah. I think anytime there's been a loss, you know, whether it's, uh, you know, realizing coming to grips with kind of like what that person had told me, that's not fair.

I deserve to have been taken care of as a child. Okay. Well, there's a grief there, [00:53:00] but you grieve it. The way to get to the other side of the grief is. That you do something different going forward, you know, and so, yeah, absolutely. It definitely has its place, but well, here we are sitting here, like getting ready to be at Easter.

So there's new life, like on the other side, and that's how you get to the new life is through the grieving. It's part of the process, but then doing something different going forward, right? To me as a person, like. Overcoming trauma and the doing something different going forward was the kind of in in my mind, like the bad guys don't get to win, you know, like my peace and contentment isn't contingent on somebody else.

And I can do what I can do to be able to to write a different story. Like that's not how the story ends kind of thing. No, I love that. And my kind of lay person definition of grief is really like the process of accepting the new reality after the loss. And so it's like getting to that point is going to involve, you know, a lot of the typical things people talk about with grief, there's going to be, you know, sadness, [00:54:00] there's going to be denial.

There's going to be, you know, maybe the whole bargaining thing where you think, well, maybe I could have done this differently and prevented that. It's going to be anger. There's going to, but eventually that acceptance I think is where we want to lead and it's a messy process. Like it's not linear and it does take time.

I don't want to pretend that it doesn't. But. I think if we, you know, look at someone who, you know, had a serious loss in their life, and it's like years and years later, I don't know if we could put an exact timeline on, like, when you should be beyond grief or whatever, but if it's years and years later, and they're still just like anchored on that grief, I think there's a problem there.

Because I think as helpful as all of that is, it's helpful, and I'm talking to myself as much as anyone, it's like, you know, I think it's easy to get caught up in the past and, you know, grieve and then we need to ask the question, like, now what? And I think part of the problem, especially in this topic of divorce, I want to like be very gentle here because so often when your family falls apart, there's a lot of dysfunction.

Your parents get divorced, like there's a separation, like whatever the particular case is for everyone listening. It's often just not even treated as a trauma. It's not even treated as something that you need to grieve. It's not even treated as a loss. And [00:55:00] so a lot of people might be showing up. To this episode or this podcast, just thinking that, well, you know, they're just learning that it was a loss.

Maybe they kind of felt that on some level, but it wasn't conscious. And then now they're like, okay, now I need to grieve that loss. Totally get that. And I just want to give you guys grace there, of course. Um, but we're kind of talking about the situation where the, you know, I think I've fallen to in the past where it's like, I'm just going to grieve perpetually forever, and I'm never going to kind of accept the new reality and move on in life.

And I think that's like really, really dangerous. Again, I think in time, we need to find meaning in the midst of our reality right now, today, learn how to accept it and really live and even thrive in the midst of it. And again, I think it's really important to ask that question, like, now what? And so that's kind of one of the final questions I'd throw to you.

Like, how can someone best answer that question? Now what? How can they best answer the question, now what, of like meaning, like the new reality going forward. I think like, you know, I heard this homily once, this was decades ago. I'm old enough that it was really a number of decades ago, but I loved it because he [00:56:00] said, like, if you want to know, like, what's the Lord really like calling you to be in a particular way to glorify him, you know, for us as Catholics, like be a saint.

It's like, look at what area of your life you've really struggled. Right. I mean, like you were in a divorced family. Like I had a whole lot of trauma. You now minister to people from divorced families and I'm a trauma therapist, right? Um, you know, or he was talking about, you know, St. Peter, who was a sand pile.

It was just, he was crumbling all over the place, sticking his foot in his mouth. And then like the Lord makes him, you know, the rock, right? Or Mary Magdalene, who's so much, you know, impurity in her background. And then like, just renowned for like, just, you know, passionate, like single hearted love for the Lord, you know?

So looking at what area like you're particularly challenged by, and I think that can begin to give you some inkling of the now what, I liked your definition, right? Accepting the new reality going forward, but it's not just about accepting, it's living into that new reality. And I think that can point us into the next chapter.

[00:57:00] Direction of what's the new reality. I love that. And I think another way to ask that question now, what is like, what am I going to do with this? Like this happened, like, what am I going to do with this? Like, yes, take time to grieve, you know, all of that's very important, but it's like, what am I going to do with it?

I'm going to let it define me. Am I going to let it. limit me in life, hold me back like we've been talking about, or am I going to then take that and use that as a catalyst for growth? Because really pain, I think, and suffering and trauma in life can either, you know, just kind of destroy us or we can use it as a catalyst for growth.

And I going back to, I mentioned Dave Ramsey before, I remember him saying like the difference between him and a lot of other people is like he, and really anyone who's like a high performer who's been able to, you know, gain any sort of like success in life is like, You're just standing on top of like the pain and the struggles in your life instead of just being buried under them.

Like, like that can be like your ladder to climb up. And so I think there's a lot of hope in that. And like you said, just maybe looking at people in your life or where you might feel called to then pour into others in a healthy way, um, is a really [00:58:00] beautiful thing as well. It's a good outlet. And I know for me, that was like actually a really healing thing.

To look beyond my own pain and try to find people in my life who maybe were suffering even more than me and see what I could do again to love them in a healthy, like balanced way. And so, uh, any final thoughts on that before we close on? Yeah, just for me, it's, you know, kind of like what you're saying, but like about becoming that person, your, your little kid wish they had back then.

Yeah. And then, you know, taking that and like trying to help people to help themselves. I think that's like so beautiful. Like we were talking about before, where it's like, we need to really grow that ability to kind of lead that little kid inside of us. That, that little, that hurt part of us that maybe wants to freak out, that wants to stay stuck, that wants to grieve forever, that wants to play the victim constantly.

And it's really beautiful to know that like, okay, no, we can be that person who leads us out of that misery, that stuckness into a much better place. Yeah, and then chances are there's other people struggling the same way they're that little emotional part of them struggling in the same way and when you come to [00:59:00] that understanding or way of being able to be that for for that part of you, then you probably have a gift to offer a lot of people.

Who are in that same place, you know? Yeah. And there's, uh, countless stories of people who've, who've done that, who've used that pain and transformed, like you said, transformed other people's lives or helped them transform their lives. So, so good. Um, in closing, I just want to say thank you so much and just really always enjoy talking to you and.

Yes. Yeah. Our partnership has been great. So I appreciate you. And thanks for being here. Um, two final questions, I guess. One, like, tell us about what you offer and how people can find you online. That's one thing. And then the second thing, I just want to throw the final word to you and just any final encouragement, any final advice to everyone listening.

Who's maybe, yeah, just been stuck in this problem of helplessness or victim mentality. Like what's the final encouragement advice. So tell us about your work and then tell us about that final word. Sure. So I'm a trauma therapist and I do intensive outpatient trauma therapy, which typically looks like one week all day, every day for Monday through Friday.

And I [01:00:00] do human and spiritual integration workshops in person for groups or online. Uh, I have a couple of books, more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma. That's specifically about trauma, obviously. And that's available on Amazon as is fearless abundant life through infinite love, which talks a lot more about.

What my final word would be, which is really just directing those needs for connection, for being chosen, being known, being valued, being protected and provided for to the Lord first, and then aligning our thoughts with His, taking on His mind for ourselves, and by way of that, being able to become conduits of grace to others.

So that's available on Amazon as well. But I think that for me, that's the final word. It's really about plugging into the Lord first. I mean, we can talk about his love like it's a nice thing and it's, you know, it's yeah, just kind of a nice thing. It's optional, but it's like, it's, it's really everything.

It's the most powerful force there ever was. And it's [01:01:00] transformative. And I know that personally, and would never have thought that my life could look the way it does, given all the things that I had, you know, had been through. So, um, but it was boiled all down. It was all God's love. So, can't be overstated.

 I wanted to touch on one additional barrier problem that we might face, and that is, if this problem I'm facing has attracted people into my life who want to help me, what happens to those people once this problem is solved, once it goes away, will they just disappear? It is kind of a scary thought and maybe subconsciously can lead us to kind of holding on to becoming attached to whatever problems that we're facing in our life, because it kind of got us the result of getting attention and getting people, you know, to help us.

I can't tell you exactly what would happen if you were to solve that problem, uh, but I can say that if you were to intentionally or subconsciously kind of hold onto that and never outgrow that problem because it brought people into your life and in order to keep them in your life, I can say this, eventually it will [01:02:00] likely drive them away.

And I don't say that to scare you, I don't say that to make you think that everyone's going to abandon you, that's not the case. But, if we're holding on to it again subconsciously, or maybe even intentionally, to keep those people around, something's going to change. Eventually they're going to get wind of this, eventually they're going to kind of understand or have a feeling that, okay, maybe this isn't The healthiest situation because this person might be relying on me in an unhealthy way.

And so just wanted to talk through that. And I say that with a lot of grace, cause again, I've been in these situations before, but if you were to heal and outgrow that problem, then what I would say is you then would have the opportunity to build a much healthier relationship, much healthier friendship.

You'll be able to really just be a better friend to them. And that should. That should make sure that, um, you'll have a better, longer relationship with that person than if you were to just hold on to this problem that's brought them into your life. And whether or not you struggle with that, I wanted to issue a challenge to everyone listening.

And the challenge is this. If you struggle with helplessness or neediness or just never seeing much transformation in your life, Don't just talk about your problems. [01:03:00] Don't just think about your problems. Don't just listen to podcasts and read books. Those are good things, by the way. I'm not putting them down, but don't just do those things.

Take the advice, take the lessons, and put them into action. That's how you see the results. Execution, right? Even if it isn't perfect execution, even if you kind of stumble through it, even if you're not very competent at whatever it is that you're doing, that's okay. It's better to act. Even if you feel like you don't have time, whatever barrier you're facing, just Bulldoze through that barrier and execute, execute, execute, do it, do it, do it.

And I promise in time, you'll see some results. And if you want more from Margaret, I'd recommend checking out her website. That's linked in the description. We also filmed a course with her. It's called broken to whole. tactics to heal from your parents divorce or broken marriage. And by signing up, uh, you're going to learn from Margaret and again, she's an 18 year trauma therapist.

You're going to learn why the trauma of your parents divorce or family dysfunction is so damaging. You're going to learn simple tools and tactics and navigate your emotions and heal [01:04:00] tips to build healthy relationships. And the whole course is actually, Two hours long, it's not super long and it contains about 30 videos.

Most of them are two to five minutes long, so it's very digestible. You can work through it at your own pace. And by going through the course, you're going to really be armed to identify the root of your struggles, which so often is trauma, untreated trauma. You're going to feel validated and less alone in your struggles.

You're going to understand and better navigate your emotions. You'll build healthier relationships and a better life. And you're going to most importantly, avoid passing your brokenness onto the people that you love. The most. And so if you want to, um, get the course right now, it's free. That might change in the future, but right now it's for just click on the link in the show notes.

Again, you can sign up for free at this recording. It is free that again, that might change in the future. Um, and then you could begin watching the videos at your own pace. Again, just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them.

I promise you they will be forever grateful to you for sharing it. with them. I really wish someone would have done that with [01:05:00] me years ago. In closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#120: Freedom You Never Tasted But Always Wanted | Jake Khym, MA

Pending! Stay tuned.

Two years into marriage, Jake found himself enslaved to a sexual addiction. He longed for freedom but felt very stuck. As a result, he lived a double life, hiding his unwanted behavior from his wife.  

But one random day, it all came to light. At that moment, he thought his marriage was over. In this episode, he shares what happened next, plus:

• What kept his marriage from falling apart?

• How a wound of abandonment from his family drove his addiction

• 6 tips to break free from sexual compulsion or addiction

Go to Jake’s Website & Resources

Listen to our series, Healing Sexual Brokenness

Go to Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Two years into marriage, Jake found himself enslaved to a sexual addiction. He wanted to break free, but he felt so stuck. And as a result, he just continued to live a double life, hiding his unwanted behavior from his wife. But that all changed one day when it kind of randomly came to life. And at that moment, he thought his marriage was over.

And so in this episode, he shares about what happened next and much more. We talk about how shame. truly crushed him, but it didn't destroy him. He answers the question, like, what kept your marriage from falling apart? We also discuss how pride is often at the root of lust or sexual compulsions. He touched on how a wound of abandonment from his family was at the root of a lot of his behavior, and he shares six tips to break free from sexual compulsion.

Uh, or addiction. So if you or someone, you know, struggles with a sexual compulsion or addiction, especially within marriage, this episode is for you. Stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 100. 20. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback. One listener said this, finally, a podcast that helps me understand why my parents divorce when I was five affected me so much.

Joey's guests are articulate and every episode helps me heal. I normally avoid religious content, but this show is so focused on felt experience that it doesn't come across religious at all. Major props for that. Thank you. And I just want to say, you're so welcome. Like we do it for you. Like I know it might sound kind of cheesy, but we do it for you.

We're so happy that the show has been helpful and even healing. Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthy, or perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, then this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot. In a gym, Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment.

But what makes Dakota different than the insane amount of fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I would say three things. One, he's done it himself. He's a very healthy, ripped duties, but he's also a good virtuous man. He's not just caught up in his looks. Another thing I'd say is he, he studied to become a priest for a little while.

And from that experience in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustine Institute, he developed this belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting all the rest, like your body. We really need to care for it all so we can become more virtuous and free to love.

And the final thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help you get a six pack or get bigger arms or whatever. He really wants to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated. And so if you would desire that freedom, if you desire transforming your body and even your life, Dakota can help you.

One client said this. Dakota Lane changed my life, and the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further.

Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what Dakota offers and the amazing results that his clients have achieved, just go to DakotaLaneFitness. com or click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Jake Kim. Jake is a Catholic leader with over 20 years of experience in various ministry settings.

He has a master's degree in counseling psychology and a bachelor of arts in theology with a concentration in catechetics. Jake has worked in adult faith formation, a seminary and in priestly formation, a diocesan evangelization, catechesis, retreat ministry, and had a private counseling practice for over 15 years.

Currently Jake offers Human and pastoral formation for Catholic leaders is a consultant to various churches and ministries across North America. He offers an annual men's retreat in British Columbia, Canada, and accompanies male leaders on their journey of faith. And he co hosts two podcasts, uh, restore the glory is one of them.

And the other one is way of the heart. Plus in this episode, he shares about a new podcast that he and his wife are going to be launching. And with two children at university, Jake currently lives in Abbotsford. Uh, BC, British Columbia up in Canada with his wife, Heather, and one of their three. Now, in this episode, we do talk about God and faith.

If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this show for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is this, just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out or skip the God parts, you're still going to benefit so much from this episode.

A little bit of a trigger warning before we jump in. This obviously is a mature topic talking about sexual compulsions and addictions. And so we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around children. But with that, here's my conversation with Jake. Jake, so good to have you on the show.

I'm honored that you joined us. Thanks so much for having me, Joey. It's great to be with you. I want to get into your story. And if, if you would, I'd love to start with a little bit of background and then take us to that day when you and your wife, Heather, Heather, really difficult conversation about your struggle.

Well, the, the back story is that I, I walked into marriage under a lot of deception. I had convinced Heather that previous issues in my life weren't there anymore and she was convinced and settled and she had entered into marriage, you know, with a lot of bliss and isn't this great and, you know, and. All that you would hope and expect, but what you didn't realize is that I was hiding a lot.

Um, there was a complete double life that was going on for me and I think to make it even worse, uh, at least it feels worse to me is that I, when all of this was happening, I was working at a church and so I was, you know. leading people into the Catholic faith through RCIA. So the duplicity stung particularly because my double life was extra heightened because I was proclaiming something about not living a double life to people.

So I'm working at a parish and, and all this is going on behind the scenes. And it's not like I'm loving it or embracing it all and going, Oh, who cares? I never was. Content with this being the reality, but felt utterly defeated and honestly didn't have much hope. Confession was my close friend and that's kind of the best that I was doing.

So the day where everything, where everything hit the fan, I was in, uh, we were getting ready or we were up in our bedroom and we were just chatting about various things in life. And. It's, it's really ironic because in hindsight, I realized what happened is that I was actually sharing a story, which was very boastful.

It was a story almost patting myself on the back about how wonderful of a helper I was to people. And so I was sharing with Heather about this story, uh, about this guy who came to me for counsel about going to confession for, Sins of impurity and so I was sharing with Heather. Oh, I know and I counseled him so well And I said, oh you got to go see I said to him you got to go see father So and so he's really good at these things but father so and so, you know, he's not so good and boy look at this great counsel I gave and was very full of myself and Heather for some reason it hit her and She said Jake, how would you know which priest would be better at that?

You And that question felt like everything went into slow motion, and I had possibly, you know, the most important decision of my life right in that moment. Because there were other times where Heather had quote unquote caught me or confronted me, and I'd lied my way out of it. But for some reason, this particular day, she asked that question, and I made the decision to cross a threshold that was terrifying to me, and to start being honest with her.

And so, I think my pause, and probably the look on my face, began to communicate to her, Oh, no, we have a lot more that's going on here. And so, I think if I'm, if I recall correctly, it was probably over the course of Two days that I came completely clean about everything that was going on in our marriage and Honestly, it was it was horrible just to be blunt There was there was not a lot of consolation in it the consolation did come for me quicker than for heather for obvious reasons because the burden of a secret and an addiction is Excruciating.

And so when you no longer live under the burden, what often happens is the addict starts to feel a bit of relief. And that can be massively confusing and hurtful to the person you've hurt your spouse or somebody else, because they're watching you almost feel relief and they've just been thrown into, you know, a hornet's nest of pain.

And so that came a bit later, but the first few days were, they were terrible. Because I'm, I'm honestly thinking my marriage is over. That's genuinely what I thought. We had my oldest daughter at the time and I, it was a very real serious consider so much so that I went to work probably, you know, I think I took the first day or two off and said I was sick or whatever, and I went back to work and I.

I had a meeting with my boss, who I was very close with, and I said, I need to talk to you and I need your help. And I said, I need to learn about annulments because I think my marriage is over. And he just obviously was floored and was like, what are you talking about? So it launched into this whole conversation with him.

So that's how the day, the first kind of day went. Um, there's all kinds of nuances I could say, but that's the rough sketch. Wow. No, thank you for sharing so vulnerably and knowing you a bit, how long you've come from that day. I just want to say a little bit of a pause in the conversation. Like I admire you so much.

It's incredible. The transformation in your life. And we're going to get to that. I want to give everyone some hope. Cause I know we're in like a heavy spot right now, but man, obviously I know you'd say it's a lot of God's grace, but you just, you have to be a fighter to be able to come, come back from something like that, which I'm excited to get into one place.

I want to go to is leading up to that. You alluded to the fact that. You know, all of this was unwanted. This is unwanted sexual behavior. What did it feel like in the midst of it all? I think so often it might be easy to like skip over that, how grueling and difficult it is. But I think to people who are in the midst of that right now, it's actually really helpful to talk about that.

So what did it feel like in the midst of it? And then, you After you opened up to Heather, how did you not let the shame crush you? I think any person that has any level of addiction and some addictions are worse than others, you know, like an addiction to cookies doesn't seem to bother as many people as an addiction to pornography.

Right? So it's like, okay, so But when you kind of increase the magnitude of what you're addicted to, alcohol, any kind of pleasure, and then when you bring in sex and all of those kinds of things, I think the reason that the sexual one has greater implication, greater pain, greater sting to yourself and other people is because it taps it into deep, deep dynamics in the human person, which is we're inherently relational.

And especially when you're in a marriage and an addiction of that kind in a marriage is like a direct. Like heresy of sorts. It's like a direct countersign to the very thing you're supposedly living day to day. Alcohol maybe is a little bit less than that because it doesn't have necessarily as blatant a direct correlation, but it does.

I mean, like a person coming home drunk impacts their spouse. I'm not trying to diminish that at all. But, you know, food is a bit less than a bit kind of like for me, the sting of it gets less. And I'm sure other people who struggle in those other areas would argue the opposite. And I'm welcome them arguing that I think that's fair for them.

But when you're in the midst of it and you look at something and you feel the clutches of something around you that you honestly, sincerely believe there's no way out of, It is a horrible experience. I think it's the closest thing I've ever come to knowing what it's like to be in jail. Like, here's the reality.

I can't do anything to get out of here. I am imprisoned by this. Every effort I try, it's like trying to shake the bars of a prison cell open. Doesn't work. And you know, you, you go for a week or whatever, and you even have the slightest ounce of hope that maybe, maybe this one's different. I remember feeling like, Oh my gosh, it's been two weeks since I haven't fallen and feeling this sense of victory only to like the next day have fallen worse than maybe a six months ago.

And that repetitive cycle of defeat and shame and imprisonment is. It, it really can mess with you. And I think what eventually people probably do is they just associate because of that pain, it gets so bad, they just start to check out and they get really numb. And that's usually when the addiction gets worse is because there's this thing in psychology called a tolerance effect where what one beer would do now takes five, what.

One website does, now it takes a worse one, a more intense one. And so you're always looking for the next high and you get used to the current high. And so it increases your tolerance increases. And so the, usually the ugliness of what you do can get worse. And so that's the whole cycle is. It's brutal and it can create a lot of despair.

I know a lot of men and women who I've seen and encountered and they feel utterly defeated. They're like a shell of a person. It's like looking at someone in a concentration camp and they're like, I'm going to die in here. And I have no hope of getting out. It's terrible. Like, it's, ugh, anybody who knows it.

And that's one of the things where I have a lot of compassion on people who struggle in this area, because I know what it's like. I know the pain of these areas, and I don't wish it on anybody. Your second question about the shame, you know, it's funny, I'm not sure I didn't let it crush me, if I'm honest.

I think the shame probably did crush me. The shame even in the addiction was crushing me. The shame of telling Heather, like my stomach, I probably grew 15 ulcers in a four days and I don't, and I never knew about it. I mean the, it was, it was terrible. Like it was brutal. And I say that cause I'm not trying to candy coat this.

Like I, there's a no BS philosophy that I kind of abide by and I don't want anybody to have, you know, Oh, it's rainbows and, and flowers when you go through this thing, it's awful. Like it's, It's brutal, but it is incredibly worth it. So I think the shame actually did crush me. I, I think why it didn't destroy me is maybe how I would rephrase the question.

And honestly, I would say grace. And I would say there are things in my life that God did to me very, very early on. He set up in me, he established in me that were critical to my recovery. And I think that's for everybody. I trust that that's the case for everybody. Everybody has things that God. Has put in their soul and in their personality and in their temperament, et cetera, that is their pathway out.

They probably just don't realize it. And so here's an example of one of those for me is I'm a very competitive person. I've been competitive for since I was little, I had two older brothers and I hated to lose. And so what, what ended up happening is that very early dynamic that just felt like me and my personality.

With some of the right love and mentorship from other people, they tapped into that dynamic in me and it was like a lifeline of don't lose and it, it, it like brought fire, even a spark back into a pouring rain environment internally. And that really mattered. There was one man in particular. He's quite well known.

Christopher West was a dear friend of mine in this journey. And it was Christopher West at the time was just Christopher West. Nobody really knew who he was. He wasn't this big popular guy. He lit fires underneath me all the time. And, and he, I don't know if he could see it or it was just the Holy Spirit, but he could motivate me like, like an athlete in a locker room.

You know, you watch those YouTube things and, and people are like, I would run through a wall now because like he had that capacity and he lit things up in me that massively helped me. And created lifelines for me. I think another one that was a lifeline for me, like I first learned that all of this was wrong when I was 18, um, I went to college and I remember going into the church because honestly I was lonely and I went to university and the girl I was after didn't work out.

And now I'm like, oh crap, I'm all alone. What do I do? And it was this tug of, well, where am I going to go? Where are people going to be nice to me? I'm insecure. I'm alone. And I felt like, go to the church, they kind of have to be nice to me. So I was like, okay, so I, I go to the church and I meet some nice people and they did, they welcomed me.

Then I start going to the talks and stuff like that. And the priest was brilliant. He just started saying the truth. And one of the things he said is masturbation, pornography, sexual addiction is real and it is a mortal sin. And here's what a mortal sin is. And that scared me because he said, hell is real and you don't want to go there.

And if you don't want to go there, you need to be in the state of grace. And so I had a very quick, Oh, Oh no, Oh, this is bad. And, and for some reason, the concept of eternity haunted me like forever, like forever, forever, like jail forever. And it terrified me. And so that in turn motivated me. And he said, there's a very simple way to be in the state of grace, go to confession.

And I was like, Okay. And so at some level, I was like, I don't care. Uh, I kind of had this internal disposition of if you don't let me go to confession, father, somehow that's on you. Cause I tried and God have mercy for you, buddy. So I worked those priests as hard as you can work them, man. Like I went to confession.

A lot. A lot. Numerous times I went twice in one day. They had the Saturday morning one, and the Saturday afternoon one, and I'd hit both of them. Because I would fall that frequently. So, that was another massive motivation for me, was somebody just flat out saying, Hell is real, you don't want to go there, and there's a way out.

You need to be in the state of grace and there's a sacrament you can get, even if you're an addict, you can come to and all you need is a slightest bit of, I don't want this anymore. And the Lord takes that. He cleans it all. And I drank, I gorged on confession. That was huge for me. It's beautiful. Wow.

There's so many lessons and so many great points I'd love to comment on. One of the lessons I'm learning from you is just how essential it is to have people in your life who can love you through this, who see you as you are, not some mask, not some fake version of you, but just like Christopher West was for you.

He's been on this podcast, so people are somewhat aware of him. And, uh, man, that was just like a lifeline, like you said, something that kept you moving. And also, like, you know, I know it was such a big struggle for your wife, Heather. I'm curious, just let's stop here for a second. Like, what made you guys keep going?

Because there's a lot of couples who would just go through something like this and say, Oh, I'm done. This is, this is not what I signed up for sort of thing. What, what kept you going? Ah, this is where my gratitude for my wife is. I, I honestly struggle to express it because I, this isn't a normal expression of love.

Like my wife, Heather is, she's amazing. Like she is amazing. I don't know why. It doesn't make sense for her to stay with me. Like, if you're honest, she shouldn't have. On every natural, normal reason, I've lied through my teeth. I've destroyed her. I've been unfaithful to her. Like, what? Why? Why should you? And, Her response here has been something that I've watched her live for the next, we're coming up on 24 years married, and this happened in year 2.

So year 2, so for 22 years, I've watched her live this wholeheartedly, and that basic point is, Either the gospel is what we say it is, or it isn't. Either Jesus Christ is who he says he is, and it's real, or what in the world are we all doing? And so everything that flows from that, the church's teaching, um, vows in a marriage, fidelity, all of that stuff, either it's real or it's not.

And what she lived was, I believe it's real. And I'm not going to believe another narrative about reality other than the one that Jesus Christ presents. And honestly, I can say, Jo, I do not think I would be here if it wasn't for her. There's no question. She was the catalyst to all of this for me. I actually have thought about it numerous times.

I'm scared. It's a scary thought for me to think about where I would be if it wasn't for her, I'd probably be divorced five times. I'd probably, I mean, I don't even know. It's, it's a scary thought. I definitely wouldn't be doing any of this kind of stuff. Heather was a, I mean, she was, a massive, massive gift and grace in my life.

Like just take this on day two. I think it was day two or day three after I've confessed everything. I'm sleeping in a different room and she's not yelling at me. She's not like mad. She's deeply hurt and she's not hiding it. And day two, day three, she says to me, I want you to know that I forgive you. And, and here's the crazy part.

I don't even remember that because I was so consumed with my inner world and my pain. That's part of the dynamic is you're obsessed with yourself. That's part of the issue. I was so consumed with that. I don't even remember her saying it and she, we've had to retell the story and I, and I vaguely have this memory of it because I remember internally, I'm like, That's impossible, right?

Like you look back on it and go, that's not possible. People don't do that. This isn't real, but it is, but it's the gospel, right? It feels impossible. I was the guy caught in adultery and Heather was the one who's saying, I forgive you, but don't sin anymore. And she offered both of those to me. She said to me, she doesn't remember saying this to me, but I have this vivid memory of her saying it.

Maybe it was the Holy spirit put these words in my heart, but I felt like it came directly from her and they were. I expect you to be a man, and nothing less. That's my expectation of you. I forgive you, but it's time for you to be a man. And, what I say when I share this story with people, I'm a movie guy, and like I said, I'm inspired, I like, Competition that that's the scene for me when the Rocky music turned on in the background and it lit a fire under me because I felt like I had a second chance at life and somebody said to me, not you're the biggest loser I've ever seen.

What the hell's wrong with you? I mean, all the things she could have said, she could have rubbed my face so deep and all of that. And what she said to me is the thing I wanted to be the whole time to begin with. I, that's what I deeply desired was to be a real authentic, strong and good man. And she basically said, put up or shut up time to get in the arena.

And that, that like exploded the fire within me. And now it wasn't easy. Uh, you know, every time you see the montage in a movie where it's like they go through eight months or a year or five years of something in 30 seconds, we all go, yeah. But the friggin five years is hard, and the music stops, and it sucks, and you don't want to do it anymore, and all of that.

But those moments were utter gifts to me, and all of them were from Heather, because she trusted and believed the gospel. So beautiful. And thanks again for sharing so vulnerably. I want to backtrack a little bit because you said something that was really profound about shame and about how, you know, I think there is the scale of intensity when it comes to various addictions or, you know, unwanted behavior.

Like, I agree with you on that. And I think part of the reason that makes the sexual struggles so shameful is that As a culture, I think we look down on them, at least, you know, within like the Christian culture. And so I think, yeah, I can drive you so deep within yourself that you think, man, if I ever were to show anyone this, they would quickly and easily disown me.

And they would, you know, say all the things that, you know, Run in the back of your head, you know that I'm a failure I'm never gonna get over this and so on and I've heard people say to that What when you're in the midst of that not just believing that what you're doing is wrong, but you are wrong You are bad kind of being the definition of shame this dual identity emerges where you to the outside world and to, you know, like you said, at work and church, like you were this one person and then interiorly you were just this broken, struggling person.

And then the gap between those two gets so big, it can feel like they can't be reconciled. Like, and that's such a hopeless, hopeless place to be. Like you, you articulate it so well. I'm curious if Yeah, backtracking a little bit when it came to, what, what held you back? Was it the shame that held you back from telling Heather in the first place?

Because I imagine there were times when you were going through this and you were like, man, I just, I want to open up. I need to open up. Like, what, what was it that held you back and held you, you? To that line of lying and deceiving, it took me getting into my own story and almost understanding myself before I could really appreciate the why.

And I'd say one of the biggest reasons of why I didn't share with Heather is because I was terrified of experiences that happened earlier in my life happening again. So as a very young boy, Abandoned very early by my mom, not her fault. She had mental illness and she had extreme postpartum depression.

She had to go into inpatient mental health care. Um, so she was gone for months, uh, when I was a brand new baby. And that was an incredibly deep wound of abandonment. And then from that, the enemy just thought, Hey, let's just beat the tar out of this guy with this wound of abandonment. So every girlfriend I had, they always broke up with me.

I never broke up with them. So there's always this repeating narrative of the thing you long for the most, feminine care will always leave you. And it, it was to the depth of my being. So the thought of sharing with somebody Something that in my mind guaranteed my biggest fear to happen. I'm like, I can't do that.

So I'm in this terrible, I call it a double bind. If I go left, I'm dead. But if I go right, I'm dead. I don't know what to do. So if I share with Heather, all this, she will abandon me. But if I don't share all of this with Heather, I'm living a complete and utter lie that once she finds out she'll abandon me.

So I'm just stuck. In both places, terribly, that was probably the biggest reason, but I didn't know that that was the biggest reason until after the fact. I think another reason, if I'm just honest, the, the wounds that those dynamics, the impact of those wounds in me made me very, very selfish and self reliant.

I basically, I call it a masturbatory mentality. And this is the language I've learned. People say, Oh, I've struggled with masturbation. I think the bigger issue is that we have a masturbatory mentality, outlook, way of life. Everything becomes masturbatory. It's all about me, what I can get and my pleasure.

And so I think that dynamic goes on. It's rampant. And it was rampant in my life. Selflessness Was a very small category for me It was all about me because I believed I had to make it about me For me to be okay because no one else would take care of me or be there Those are all the lies and vows and beliefs and so I mean it sounds it's a bit crude But I was quote unquote Masturbating all the time because everything was about my pleasure and everybody else's job was to make sure I was okay So that was another reason So, I would look at Heather and justify at times my behavior because she wasn't giving me what I wanted and I was convinced this is what I need and if everybody would just give me that.

You know, the lie becomes, if I could just have pornography in real life, I'd be fine. And I believed that lie deeply. And so in my relationship with Heather, you bring that into the marriage. That's one of the issues with pornography. And then you end up deeply wounding your spouse because you're expressing disappointment in them because they're not living the lie with you.

Just as a footnote, I think that's a very dangerous thing that happens for a lot of couples is their spouses that believe that's the remedy. Give them what they want. And then they begin to compromise their own dignity, and that just creates all kinds of more interesting and troublesome dynamics. So, selfishness is kind of what I'm saying here.

Massive selfishness and terrible fear of abandonment. And then I would say the last one was, I honestly didn't have the kind of relationship with God to where I sincerely trusted he would actually satisfy me. And so I'm living this life with God and going, yeah, God's good. And, you know, I say all the right stuff.

I'm passing all the multiple choice tests, but if I'm honest, Will God actually satisfy me to this depth? No, I don't think he goes there. I mean, you know, you look at all the stuff that we're formed in and all the false formation and prudishness that enters into our, our world and we call it holiness. We call it prudence, but it's actually manichaeism, which means body, bad spirit, good.

You know, we, we adopt some of these heresies without even realizing it. And then we shut out. The very grace of God in our lives. And so I believed God can't satisfy me. So you throw that combo together. That was gnarly. I was like, man, I'm not going there. No, it's so profound. And I love how you tied lust and pride together.

I don't think a lot of people make that connection, but I think it's so potent. I heard that St. Augustine once wrote that lust is the sin of the proud. And, and I think like you said so well, it's so true because at the core of lust of using another person for own pleasure. It's, you know, obviously an extreme amount of selfishness, which is pride.

And so I think one of the antidotes, which I know we're going to get to in a second here, is an incredible amount of humility of, and obviously valuing like the worth, the dignity, the value, you know, of another person, seeing their pain, seeing, you know, their desire to be loved and just understanding how Our behavior of salvageness just destroys them in so many ways.

And so I love how you guys were able to kind of go from that place into just a much healthier, more beautiful place. And so many things you had, I would love to comment on, but I know we don't have forever today. I could talk to you forever, but I'm curious if there was, um, if there was anything else that you would say that that sexual compulsion addiction Uh, was, was filling, like, if there are any other needs, cause you, you outlined it so well how it went back to the abandonment one, but I'm just curious if there's anything else you would say like this need or this thing was filling this need.

Yeah, I, I would say I'm a very, I'm like, you know, like when you talk about the five love languages and those kinds of things, physical touch is very high for me. So I'm a sensual person and I'm, Stereotypically male where I'm highly visual, I'm very sensual. And so what the pornography was doing was just almost like meeting me to a depth that I felt.

And so in some ways it was this perfect assault on me because it's deeply visual, highly erotic. All of these things that I kind of at baseline feel, and I think I'm, I'm, I don't think everybody's that way, or if they are, I don't know that. And so pornography had like this perfect concoction for me and passion, like I'm a passionate guy.

I'm a pretty intense guy when I play a sport like I, I go all in, I'm an all in kind of person. And so what you see. One of the twists of pornography is that it meets you in that space. And the lie that it suggests is you won't find this elsewhere. In other words, when you hear and look at the passion of Jesus Christ, you don't equate that to a satisfaction of Eros.

Most people don't link those. They go, that's the opposite of Eros. And I think one of the dilemmas that we have is that we, we assume making a gift of ourself, which is. The passion of Christ, the cross doesn't satisfy. This to me is one of the crux issues with Christianity and the gospel and Jesus's message is we, we don't believe in when we say, when you lose your life, you'll find it.

I think that's a, that's a line in the sand that few people actually cross over to believe. And so we think we actually have to take care of ourselves. And so they go, where am I going to go? I want it to be really good, highly intent, blah, blah, blah. And it's, this is the brutal thing of pornography. It's affordable.

They call it the three A's. It's affordable, meaning I don't have to pay much to get it. It's anonymous. No one's going to watch me. And it's easily accessible. Affordable, anonymous, and accessible. That is a real tough one. And this is one of the issues with the advent of modern technology is, you know, back in the 70s or 80s, early 90s, to partake of pornography, More guts than it does now.

And so you had to, you had to have a bigger desire. So it had a threshold that a lot of people just wouldn't push through. And in some ways it prevented a lot of issues, affordable, accessible, anonymous, man, that is rampant right now. So, um, anyway, I feel like I'm digressing. No, no, it's so good. And so relevant to what we're talking about.

Cause you're right. It's so, it comes at you so aggressively. And I think not only men, but also women now are struggling in so many different ways when it comes to just lacking self mastery in the realm of sexuality. But also, I think, like you said so well earlier on, there's something about our sexuality that just hits on so many components of the human person.

And so, We're all, you know, I think so many people have been through trauma. They carry broken with brokenness with them through life, especially our audience who's coming from, you know, really broken dysfunctional families that the kind of sexual release is just so attractive because it feels in the moment that it kind of satisfies those needs to satisfy that brokenness for a moment.

At least you feel some level of relief and maybe even wholeness. I don't know if I'd use that word exactly, but when you have, uh, I'm trying to be Veiled with my language when you have a full experience of a sexual act what literally goes on Neurologically for you is an is a very intense bonding cycle And so what it's created to do is one of the most powerful things on the face of the planet It's to take two people and to have this repeated experience where they keep bonding and keep bonding and keep bonding and get closer And deeper and closer and closer and closer because the Lord's saying I want to show you what I want you Us to look like, meaning God and the person.

I want to give you a sign of what that looks like and how deeply bonded I want to be with you. Well, it's like he, you know, this is the joke. Like when God's pouring the chemicals together to make reality that he like slipped and he like poured too long in this domain and we're like, Whoa, why'd you put so much of that one in this one?

And we go like, back off a bit. And so we feel like we got to counteract God's design, but that's just not true. Like he got it right the first time. And what he's desiring is that level of intense bonding intimacy with us. Like this is the four and all these domains is exactly what heaven Is it's the fulfillment of all the desires that we have they're put back into right order and I think that's where people just go no way heaven's full of angels and organ music and ice cream like that's we put all these random categories together and go such a trite definition of it and so C.

S. Lewis has this concept of, there's no desire that God can't satisfy. I think what people struggle with is they go, well, I have desires. He won't satisfy my way. Okay. Yes, that is the issue, but a desire that's unsatisfiable. No. That's hard to believe. Oh, just pick up your cross. That's going to make me happy.

Baloney. I'd rather go do this other thing. And this is where the cross is not easy. This is where GK Chesterton says things like Christianity to be, has not been tried and found wanting. It's been found difficult and left untried. Like it is not for the faint of heart, this call to be a disciple of Jesus.

But what you see over and over and over and over with the people who took it serious, we call those people saints. They were deeply satisfied. I would call them the happiest people that have ever lived. Now you might look at them at face value and go, they look sad. Look at the artwork that shows them.

And I'm going, uh, you might not realize all the depth that's going on. Right? Don't judge a book by its cover. I had somebody recently say, Jake, why don't you smile bigger? And I was like, I thought I was smiling. Like, I'm actually happy when I'm making this face, you know? So, there's a bit of that maybe going on.

But, um, Wow. No, no. Profound and so good. And I think this gets to the root of so many struggles in our relationship with God, where I think father, uh, Michael Galey said that the, I think the core problem is that we don't actually trust God because we don't believe he's good. And we think that, He's holding out on us.

We think that he's putting us through these ridiculous rules and regulations and just trying to stifle us so that we don't experience the joy and the pleasure that we could experience on our own. And so like you articulated so well, and I've experienced this in my life too. We just think, well, I really don't believe that God's going to take care of me, come through for me, satisfy me.

So I'm just going to take care of it myself. And that, you know, can look like any number of. unhealthy behavior, but I think that's where the world is right now. And it's so sad and you're right. Like when you go through that, the cross and you go through just living life as it was meant to be lived, even though it's not pain free, it's not easy.

There's like a deeper level of satisfaction of meaning of, of joy that you receive that it's hard to articulate unless you go through it. Yes. I am eternally grateful to John Paul the second. And Christopher West, because the whole anthropology of the theology of the body, particularly how do I manage desire, was them.

Like I, all of that has been formation from them being able to situate the deepest longings of my heart within a context where does, where satisfaction is real and it's also holy. So for example, the concept of freedom. For me, freedom meant Do what I want, when I want, how I want it, so I get the biggest bang for my buck, the biggest return.

And then another concept of freedom was put in, was offered to me, which was, freedom is not living in jail. It's not, because you can do all the things you want within a jail, but you're still in a jail. You're still locked up, you're not actually free, you don't have the capacity to have your yes be yes and your no be no.

Something else is pulling you around like a puppet. But you have to be brutally honest to admit, man, I can't actually do and say what I want here. I'm in bondage. So getting the permission to do whatever I want is different than the capacity. Do I even have the capacity to love somebody? Do we even have the capacity to say no?

So that spin for me was huge. And then to say, what if you can be free and be satisfied? And I was like, that's impossible, right? And it's just so subtle that these narratives get in there. And basically what they taught me was, now you're looking Jesus Christ right in his face and he's saying to you, I can't.

Will you follow me because I promise you I can, and that is a shattering, rattling reality. An author put it this way that I love. When you encounter Jesus as he truly is, you will either turn away from him because you can't handle what he's offering, or you will shamelessly worship him. And that I love that articulation because it captures my experience and I think the honest experience people have when they encounter Jesus as he actually is with all the, all the garbage drapery that we put around him.

Like when you peel all that stuff away and you look Jesus Christ square in the eyes, his offer is life. And he even says it. To the full life to the full is what I'm offering to you. Wow. Wow. Wow. And I love the point you made about freedom. Cause I think people feel that strongly today. Like they want freedom, right?

They don't want to be tied down. They don't want to be, so to speak. They don't want, you know, shackles, but like you said, so often we're slaves to certain behaviors or whatever attachments that we have in our life that we don't even realize. We just think that, no, I choose this thing. But if we ever tried to stop it, it would be like, no, I couldn't really do it.

And I love that definition you gave. And I, the way I've kind of thought about it too, in the past is. The greatest measure of freedom, in my opinion, is, like you said, your capacity to love. The greater your capacity to love, the more free you are. The less your capacity to love, the less free you are. And I think a lot of even moral issues can be looked at through that lens.

And so that, that shifted things for me, especially when I was younger and struggling with, you know, lust and pornography and masturbation, all that stuff. It was, you know, realizing that it was holding me down. And, and there's, it's almost like you can't. You know, I know Christopher Walsh uses the analogy of like eating junk food from a dumpster.

You know, it's like, you can't really imagine what like, you know, an amazing ribeye would taste like when you're in the midst of that. But once you taste it, you're like, my goodness. Like, this is like a world of a difference that I never even knew because I never experienced it. But once you do, you're like, wow, there's something else on the other side.

And I think that's what I want people to hear. From your whole story, like there's something better on the other side that maybe you can imagine or experience or, um, yeah, there's something burning within me that I want to say to people because I, and I almost want to remind my former self of this. So you, you take me back 30 years and, um, Uh, you're looking at a teenage version of me walking up to a beautiful woman and having the integrity of heart to simply love her and not grasp after her felt impossible.

But I can do that now. And the satisfaction that comes from walking up to a beautiful woman and not having this thing within me, that's trying to fantasize or what if, or if I played my cards right, you know, all that stuff that's twisted and distorted within you, and to be able to say it in freedom and to make that a gift to them and they feel and see that you have no ulterior motive.

Watch what that does. It is amazing. I have, what I love about that is that when you start to taste and see what love is like, and to be a lover in all of the right contexts and ways as a, as a husband, as a father, as a brother. To be able to, with utter congruence to walk up to somebody and bless them and not need anything from them.

The life that goes into that person is like stuff you've never seen before. And what that takes is an integrity of heart. Like that, that's not easily won. You don't cheaply go up there. This is one of the things I love about the feminine soul. Their BS meter is so sensitive. It is such a gift, and it's terrifying all at the same time.

And so they can smell your macho BS from so far away. And so what that demands is an utterly clear minded, solid man. And when you can offer that to them, the life that comes into them is like nothing you've ever seen on any false version of pornography. And it's live. And you get to do that all the time.

Like, I'm not recommending going up to everybody and go, Hey, you're beautiful. Hey, you're beautiful. Cause now that starts to get distorted and probably be about you. But imagine your heart is so conformed unto Christ that you are literally moved by what moves his heart. And so you go up to people and you want to love them and you become a lover.

And the right context, an untwisted version of being a lover of people. It is the most satisfying thing in the world, dude. It is unbelievably wonderful for men to, to love men and women. Well, like it's the best, it really is the best. And then to have that capacity to love in a unique and particular relationship where those words.

Can become flesh and you mean it into your bones and to make that gift of someone to someone and for them to receive that gift from you and to have it all be true and good and beautiful and passionate. There's nothing like that. And so, we, we, we, we settle, C. S. Lewis says it this way, we settle for playing in dirty mud puddles when we're made for the holiday at the sea.

And what I'm trying to emphasize is, I have gone on the holidays, I've tasted the holidays that C. S. Lewis references. They're amazing. Like they are worth it. They're incredibly satisfying and they're not cheap. They require a total and complete. Yes. Of the person who wants to realize that reality, but that's what makes them matter.

Like. The, the stuff that we get these days, because it's cheap, like cheap love, cheap respect, cheap praise, it's so shallow. And then you wonder why people are depressed and have no meaning. It's because everything's lost its value. But when you raise a standard. And you hold that standard. The thing has value again.

Like this is one of the things that like with athletics, I'm being an, I like athletics when they start changing all the rules and all the old people who played the sport are like, you can't do this. Like, come on, like, you don't get to change the thing. Cause that compromises the whole point of it all.

You show up and you either won or you lost. You're either better than them or you're not. And there's no other way to prove it other than getting on the mat and showing It is instant. reality right in front of you. And if you want to get better, it takes a lot of dedication and hard work. It just, it is what it is.

You're either going to embrace it or not. There's no games. I love that. It's not cheap. So good. So good. And I think we need to hear about that more. So I'm so glad you, we spent so much time here because I think people, when they're stuck in an addiction or compulsion, They, yeah, lack the motivation and they don't think what's waiting on the other side is worth it.

It's like, no, I'm more comfortable here. And I remember Jay Stringer in his book, he has like this awesome quote about how you have this kind of maddening fight with freedom in the midst of an addiction or compulsion. And I think this gets to the heart of it, because we actually don't think that's what's waiting on the other side is better.

We think what we're in the midst of is so much better. And so feel free to comment on that. But I wanted to shift gears a little bit in the time we have left to kind of fill the gap. We've kind of contrasted what your life was like then to what it's like now, which is just beautiful. Feel free to add anything there.

But I'm curious what happened in between, if there's any particular steps or principles or lessons that you would like to pass on to everyone listening, especially people who maybe find themselves where you were years ago. Yeah, there's numerous things that were very important, you know, over the years I've tried to categorize them and what's difficult about just labeling with.

You know, Oh, here's the five easy steps to pornography recovery. Like it's never that, that that's cheap. And so I don't mean to cheapen it. Like these are very real and there's a lot of depth to them, but I mentioned one before and that would be the sacraments in particular confession. Confession changes lives.

It's a real encounter with supernatural capacity. In particular, in the areas of healing and forgiveness and the grace to be able to not sin again. You, you can't find that anywhere else. You might not be able to see it, but there are lots of things we can't see that are very, very real. So I would say sacraments are very high on the list and use them a lot, go a lot to them.

You know, confession, I'm not encouraging scrupulosity, but I'm saying if you're in an addiction. Go to confession every week go to confession every three days like what I love about my region is I can find confession like Anywhere the next day, right? So just yesterday I was like it was the I'm gonna timestamp this but We're recording this right after the Feast of St.

Joseph. And so Big feast day for me. And I was like, you know what? I just want to go to confession and I could. So I'm really grateful for the priests out there who offer that because it's a huge thing. So sacraments, I would say another one that was very big for me that you mentioned as well, which is other people.

You cannot get through this alone. And there's different kind of types of people that you need. I needed a Christopher West who was like the trainer at the gym. Who's Got the right dose of, come on, you can do this, as well as helping me analyze my, you know, what I'm doing and not doing. But I also had a lot of people who were exceptionally kind.

The guy who I mentioned, who I shared my story with at work and the annulment thing. The first thing he said to me was, Jake, hold your head high. And, and I was like, what did you just hear what I just said? And he said he was fighting for me right in that moment. The brilliance of that man to begin battling shame on my behalf, like in his third statement, it was utterly brilliant.

Hold your head high. You are now fighting a good fight. Like. Oh, that phrase just rang in my ear. So I needed other people. I needed to go to counseling. I needed healing. And so I went to many versions of counseling and basically I've never stopped. I've been in counseling ever since that whole journey started with me.

I've never stopped because I have perpetual areas that I need to address. This area isn't there anymore, but that doesn't mean there aren't other areas that I need to address. So, I went into healing, lots of it, and I just said, I meant this is my path and I'm not getting off of it, because this is what it means to be a Christian.

This is the gospel message, perpetual healing. My prayer life I had to take very seriously. And I made things practical. I made a bet with a buddy, because money was precious when you're young and you're early married and you got new family, so I made a bet with a friend. If one of us misses, uh, we had, we committed to an hour, a holy hour, you have to pay the other guy a hundred bucks.

And that stung. And so it was like, I'm not missing. And you know what? Heather was like, you're not missing. Get your butt up and pray. Cause we don't have a hundred dollars to spare. And I was like, it's not in the budget. Yeah. It's not in the budget. You being lazy is not on the budget. So I needed that.

Another one was fasting. Fasting was very important to me. I had to strengthen my will muscle. That's Christopher West's brilliance. He said, Jake, you go to the gym for your body, but you're not going to the gym for your soul. And part of the going to the gym for your soul is fasting. And so I committed to a bread and water fast on every Friday.

And it was hard. I did not like it. And it wasn't brutal, like I'd go to Panera Bread and I'd get the nicest stinkin bread that I could find. Cause I was like, I don't know, and I, I even eventually got to the point where butter counted. So, I don't know if that was cheating. The point was, I was strengthening a muscle, which was my will muscle.

And I would say the last thing was just truth. I needed to fill, fill myself with a ton of truth. Not just truth like, oh, the church teaches, yes, that. But also, this is the truth about my identity. This is the truth about why I do what I do. This is the truth about God. And I had to fight for those truths to actually, like, find root within my soul.

For the soil to be turned over to be able to anything to have root. Because, like, my life at that point was like a hurricane and you're trying to plant a garden in a hurricane. Like, you gotta really protect some of those things. for them to actually grow and get strong enough. So that's kind of the rough categories that I would say.

No, it's super helpful. And I love that you highlighted the point, like as helpful as all those principles are and those tactics that healing is deeply personal, that it might look a little bit different in different people's life. But I think so many of those components, um, I know in my story were present when I've experienced the most amount of healing.

And so especially I would just double down on that whole vulnerability point of like having someone in your life who just knows everything about you, who you can just share everything about you and who they're just going to love you in spite of it all. Um, it's, it's beyond healing. It's beyond helpful.

It's something that can transform you. Yeah, there, maybe I can nuance that for a little bit. There, there are two types of people that I find helpful and both are needed. And that, and that was represented by Christopher and Tom. Tom was the guy who said, hold your head high. And so as I've seen that over the years and becoming somebody who's worked with people in these regards, I've found that both kinds of people are necessary.

So. The kind that I will love you no matter what. And I will love you in the midst of the sin and the ugliness, et cetera. And Christopher did that for me. He also was a wonderful version of accountability because he wasn't okay with excuses. And so I think a lot of the problem is that people have an accountability partner and what they give each other permission to do is to just get away with whatever.

And so I, I challenged a group of men I was working with one time. And this is one of the best stories I've ever heard. I challenged a group of men one time to actually do real accountability with each other. And so there was a group of men and they came in and one guy kept coming and saying is falling.

And another guy in the group said, I promised you, I promised you. I would help you. And if you come back next week and you say you've fallen again, I will take care of this problem for you. And the guy was like, what? So we're all like, Whoa, what does this mean? The guy comes back the following week. He says, I fell again.

And the guy who promised him said. I'll take care of it. So I'm like, what is going on? So now it's the next week and there is all kinds of issues between these two guys. Well, here's what the guy did. He knew that the way that this guy fell was through the internet and through buying things on TV, he went over to his house.

And he ripped the cable box off of his house and cut all the cable wires, ripped it off, like holding the head of Medusa in his hands and left it on his porch and drove away. So he had no access to the internet. He couldn't get any access to anything. I think that's illegal, what he did, but the commitment was so amazing.

They were the one guy who had his house. Assault was not happy because then he had to pay the company to come back out and fix it and blah, blah, blah. But I went, that's the kind of thing. I'm not promoting illegal behavior, but that's the kind of thing that the guy was serious. He was like, Either I'm, either I'm whole, I'm loving you or I'm not like, uh, so I love that story.

And so good. Maybe that guy's in jail for doing that for other people. No, so good. No, I think it hits on that whole thing. When we're trying to help someone, we need to go in with both truth and love. We can't just love them and, you know, say, well, You know, what you do doesn't matter. No, it does. We need to hit them with the truth and say, no, no, you're, you're called to more than this and you can beat this.

And yeah, I'm going to be standing right there through it with you, but I'm not going to let you fall prey to mediocrity and just like living this life. That's never going to end because that's just depressing. So, so much good stuff there. I want to, um, just get kind of fire. A few questions that you, when it comes to someone listening right now, Who is in that spot that you were in, maybe in their marriage or leading up to marriage in a dating relationship even.

I know those are two different things. So maybe let's just focus on marriage for the sake of this. So what would you say to that person? Like, where do they go first? And I'm curious, do you always advise sharing your struggle with the spouse? Yeah, good questions. I'll be brief. The first things I would say is you're not going to go anywhere if you're not honest.

And so step one is getting honest with the reality of the situation. Christopher did the same thing to me, and he said, you've got to be honest about do you actually want this? Because he said, you can actually want it, and that looks a particular way. Or you can want it. To want it, or you can like the idea of wanting it, that's not wanting freedom, and you just need to be honest about where you're at.

Do I want it? Do I want to want it? Or do I hope to one day want to want it? You know? You've got to situate yourself there. Cause there you're least honest. You have to be honest at first. Then I would say the next step is what do you believe will happen with regard to a journey of transformation? And you need to look for the lies there.

So for example, it's impossible. I said that. I said that all the time. Obviously I'm sitting here proving that wrong, but I believed it. So I believed a lie. So I have to look at what I believe about a process of change and actually examine it and, and, and examine that for lies. And usually you need to do that with someone else.

Amongst all the other stuff, I would say the last one is something I've learned from The Navy SEALs. And I think the reason I say that is because Navy SEALs are people who do extremely difficult things and you can learn a lot from them. There's a friend of mine who's a Navy SEAL. He's a retired Navy SEAL.

And I've talked to him about all these things. And he said, getting free of pornography addiction is an equivalent to going through hell week. So if you know anything about the Navy SEALs, he said, and he's been through hell week. He's been through hell week. So he has real life experience. And he said, I respect any man who has worked through an addiction, man or woman, but we're talking about men work through an addiction of pornography.

He said, you are like us when you've done this. That was huge motivation for me. But one of the things that they teach there is what's called micro goals. The principle is you will never make it through hell week. When you think about the entire week at the same time, You'll quit because it's overwhelming.

So what you have to do is draw your attention, which isn't easy, but it is possible. Draw your attention back until the next thing you're focusing on is reasonable and achievable. And that might be. All I have to focus on is the next 30 minutes. And if that's the sobriety journey that you're in is all my goal right now is the next 30 minutes.

And I'm working hard because it's not instantly happening. I'm working hard to hold my attention to being holy, being pure, and being free. For the next 30 minutes, I'm breaking down this lifelong journey into a goal. That's reasonable and achievable. It's micro goals. That's how they survive extremely difficult things like hell week.

And they train that and they practice that. And then they embody it. I think that's essential to recovery is micro goals. You have to break this whole thing down into realistic parts. And. That doesn't magically happen. That is intentional. Soon as you think about, I'm going to have to go seven years without ever struggling, you're done.

It's too big. You're done. It'll crush you. You got to think about the next 10 minutes, day, week, whatever is manageable to you. So good. And proof that that work is that works is, um, the lone survivor story of Marcus Luttrell, who's a Navy SEAL, who you guys might know this story. He was, um, essentially just left without a team in the mountains in Afghanistan.

And he actually using that exact tactic that Jake just taught, he actually crawled on his belly with like a broken femur. He, his nose was collapsed into his face. Sorry, this kind of graphic he had. bitten through his tongue. Um, he was on his belly, like running from likely hundreds of enemy fighters. He, he would take a stick and draw a line in the sand in front of him.

And he said, if I can just get past that line, I'm going to live. And he did that again. He did that for seven miles. seven miles. And so it works, it works. And so, so, so good. And I think one of the biggest lies I just want to touch on briefly when it comes to, um, breaking free from sexual compulsion addiction is that I'm going to beat it myself.

I'll figure out a way to be yourself. That's a complete lie. And I know you can, we can do a whole nother show on that. But, um, the, the final thing I just wanted to make sure we touched on was just your ministry. You have so much more to offer here. I mean, this, Episode is a proof of it. So please tell us about it.

What do you guys offer and how can people find you online? Yeah, I'd say that the simplest thing is to go to our website life restoration C A, C A is for Canada, we're in Canada. So Life Restoration Ministries is what we do and in that we do all kinds of various things. The biggest thing that we offer is we want people to encounter Jesus and we want people to experience the maturation and healing of their humanity.

So, human formation, healing, encounter with Jesus, that's what we're all about. So, if you're kind of looking at going, what's the nuance here? Human formation is a big nuance. Encounter with Jesus is a big nuance. Um, but we do that through conferences, podcasts, like, podcasts. Uh, we have a podcast and Joe, you've been on ours, which was a great gift to us.

So Heather has a podcast, my wife, she and I run it together, abiding together. I have a podcast called restore the glory. Heather and I are actually going to be starting our own podcast together. It's one of our ministries and podcasts are a thing we love to do. So they'll, that will be one. We do conferences and talks and formation courses, et cetera.

But if you go to the website, you get a sense of all that. And Joey, I, I'm sorry, I know I'm way over time, but I, you, you had asked a question about. Do you say to your spouse or do you not? And I think I'll answer that very, very simply. I wish there was an easy black or white answer. I don't think there is one, but here is one thing I will say in my experience.

I don't know anyone, and I'm sure they exist, but I don't know anyone who hasn't told their spouse and gotten through it. I say that as a field note from my experience. Now, hundreds of people could write in and say, Hey, I great. I just don't know about them. I have a lot of stories of people who have broken free when their spouse was on the journey with them and their spouse was aware.

That's my story. So. That's one comment I would make. But back to the other thing, life restoration podcast, you know, retreats, et cetera, go to that website. Love that. And one piece of advice on that for everyone listening. I've heard that when you do tell your spouse, you want to make sure there's someone else present there who is some have some level of competence in this, because then your spouse has somewhere to go to, to talk about these things and not just between the two of you.

So I've heard that's a really, really helpful tactic. Yeah, we don't want to be flippant. Like, I mean, It's not about you. That's the thing. Um, I mean, we, yeah, we could do a whole other episode just about that, but there's a lot of differing opinions there, but love them. The point is to love them. It's not to get you out of the doghouse or to get you better.

Remember, it's not about you. The point is, what do they need? How can I love them well? Okay. No. So good. And Jake, thank you so much for coming on the show. I could talk with you forever and just such good content, good advice. I want to give you the last word, like what's one final piece of encouragement that you would give to everyone listening, especially someone who finds himself where you were years ago.

Trust Jesus. It sounds cliche, but when you are with him, when you're facing his direction, even if it feels like you're so far away, you don't lose. You never lose. When you are close to Jesus facing him, trust him, it's worth it. So good. Jake is amazing. And it's really an understatement to say that if you want to really soak in all the wisdom that he has to offer, uh, relistening to that episode is a smart move.

But I wanted to highlight the six tips that he gave to break free from sexual compulsion or addiction. Uh, one is sacraments like confession. He mentioned two, People someone to coach you and really hold you accountable through this whole process of breaking free a three therapy to heal the brokenness that drives that behavior for his prayer to tap into strength.

That's beyond your own five is fasting to grow your self control yourself mastery muscle. And six is truth to bury those lies. How to keep you stuck. And if you want more content like this, I highly recommend checking out Jake's website and the podcast that he hosts. Um, but I'd also humbly recommend our podcast series called healing sexual brokenness.

It's a six part series where we just offer a lot of tactics and resources from experts on how to overcome unwanted sexual behavior. So you can find freedom. And it's so relevant for people like us who come from divorce and broken families, because one expert found that 90 percent of people who struggle with a sexual addiction actually come from a broken family, pretty mind blowing.

And so if you want to listen to that, there's two ways you can do that. Uh, in your podcast app, you can just, once you've selected our show, you can just search. Healing, sexual brokenness, and you'll see all of those episodes. Um, or you can just click on the link in the show notes of this episode, which will take you to restored ministry.

com slash sexual brokenness again, restored ministry. com slash sexual brokenness, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them. Honestly, if you take like 20 seconds out and message them, I promise you they will be so grateful.

And in closing, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#119: Broken is What Happened to Me, Not Who I Am | Stacey

After her parents divorced, my guest felt abandoned and badly hoped it was all a dream that she could just wake up from. Dealing with all the brokenness that followed led her down a path of feeling stuck and thinking her brokenness defined her. 

Thankfully, she realized that “‘broken’ is what happened to me, not who I am.” In this episode, we touch on that and more:

• How just having the pain of your parents’ divorce validated is incredibly helpful and often the first step of healing

• The many emotional problems she’s had to battle, including anxiety, depression, anger, self-hate, control, and loneliness

• The tendency in people like us to allow fear to hold us back and cause us to play it safe, but how healing can free us from fear

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

After her parents divorced, Stacey felt abandoned and really hoped it was all just a bad dream that she could wake up from. And dealing with all the brokenness that followed from that led her to feeling really stuck and like her brokenness defined her. But thankfully, she realized that broken is what happened to me, not Who I am.

And so in this episode, we discuss all of that and more like how just having the pain of your parents divorce or your broken family validated by someone else is incredibly helpful. And often the first step of healing. She shares really vulnerably the many emotional problems that she's had to battle with over the years connected to.

The breakdown of her family and her parents, uh, divorce. She shares things like anxiety, depression, anger, loneliness, self hate, and even a tendency toward control. We also touch on how healing hurts, but we need to act in order to heal despite the pain. The pain, we also discussed the tendency in people like us from broken families to allow fear to control us and hold us back.

And really that causes us to play it safe in life, but how healing can free us from that fear. And we also offer some advice like how getting outside of yourself and loving other people can actually be incredibly. Healing. So stay with us. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage.

So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 119.

As I often say, we're so happy that so many of you have found this podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback from you. One listener said this, she said, The podcast has helped me to not feel crazy for feeling certain ways and situations and relationships. It has helped me to realize why I am the way I am and learn about myself through that.

It has helped me face up to certain realities about my past, and it is just nice to hear the nuanced explanations about rare cases when divorce is necessary, like for the family safety that happened in my own family. Thank you again. Again, we're so happy to hear it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you.

Today's episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated by working out and eating healthier, perhaps you've tried workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you. This is especially for you. Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, and 75 year olds and people who've never even stepped foot in a gym.

Dakota builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountability and one on one coaching for people anywhere in the world in a safe and approachable environment. But what else makes Dakota different than the numerous fitness and nutrition coaches out there? I want to mention three things.

One, he's done it himself. He's, he's a very ripped, strong, strong man. Dude, uh, he's also just a good man. He's not just worried about his body and fitness, but about every area of his life. Uh, second thing is they actually studied to become a priest for a little while. And from that experience, uh, in his time at Franciscan university and the Augustan Institute, he developed the belief that to live a fully.

Human life involves not just growing in one area, such as your spiritual life and neglecting the rest, like your body, we really need to care for it all. So we can become more virtuous and free to love. And the third thing is Dakota's mission is not just to help people get strong or ripped. It's really to lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

And so if you desire freedom, if you desire that transformation of your body and even your life, Dakota can help you. One client of his said this, Dakota Lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota. This program is worth every penny.

If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further. Dakota Lane. Is your man to see what Dakota offers and the amazing transformations, uh, that his clients have had. Just go to his website, Dakota lane fitness. com. You can even Google that Dakota lane fitness.

com, or you can click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Stacy. Stacy is a wife of almost 25 years and the mom of three young adult children, one of whom will be married this year. As a child of divorce herself, she has a tender heart for children and teens suffering from the effects of their parents.

divorce. Stacey and her husband, Jamie, spent 19 years on their parish, uh, pre Cana marriage prep team where they gave their testimony and shared the beauty of living out God's plan for marriage and sexuality. Her experience as a latch key kid greatly influenced her decision, uh, to stay home with her children, whom she homeschooled for 10 years.

And when Stacey heard of restored and heard of this podcast, she thought I could have used that as a kid. And so she hopes that sharing her story will help others on their journey toward restoration. In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here.

This is not a strictly religious podcast. Anyone who's been listening for a while knows that. And so wherever you're at, again, I'm glad you're here. My challenge to you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you were to skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to learn a lot. And this episode is going to help you, I promise.

With that, here's my conversation with Stacy. Stacy, welcome to the show. Hi, Joey. Good to be here. I'm excited to speak with you and really appreciate you. Yeah, sticking your neck out the hair and being willing to, you know, come on and help the younger people to just navigate all the brokenness in their families.

And I know like me, you, you know, come from a broken family as well. And so I'm curious, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced and to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing? What happened? Um, I was 10 when they separated. Um, and it was presented as, you know, we're getting separated, but, you know.

When you hear that as a kid, you're like, uh, that means divorce, you know? Um, initially there was, you know, I could tell there was tension between my parents. There was some fighting going on. Um, at some point my mom kind of like moved into my bedroom and I was moved into my sister's bedroom. And, um, eventually I actually overheard her telling my grandmother.

I was, like, on the stairs near our kitchen, and she was in the kitchen, and I overheard her telling my grandmother that they were getting separated. And then eventually she told me. Um, herself. Um, so yeah, so that's how I found out. And it was pretty traumatic. I can imagine. And was this something that kind of, even though you saw the problems within the marriage, was it kind of out of the blue that they were separate and getting divorced?

Or did you kind of predict that that was coming? You know, I don't recall feeling like that was going to happen. Like I knew that things weren't good, but I. I don't know. I don't know if a little, as a little kid, you like fathom that. And you know, I'm a little older, I think than you're most of the people that you talk to.

So this was back in the early eighties when there aren't weren't as many divorced families, um, as there are now. So I didn't know that many kids. I don't know how, I don't even know if I knew any kids whose parents were divorced. Um, so it just, yeah, probably wasn't as much on my radar than maybe it would be for someone today.

Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. It's definitely become somewhat normalized even though it's still, it's kind of this weird thing where we, yeah, divorce is kind of this normal part of life, but we don't really talk about it in the sense of how it is impactful and harmful for the kids. Yeah. And so, yeah, I totally know what you're saying, but is that that extra like stigma that you had to fight through?

I'm sure it was not an easy thing to go through. Yeah. I mean, I remember feeling so ashamed. Um, like going to school knowing so we had My mom was the one we moved out. Um, so, um, my dad stayed in the house for a little while. We moved out, which meant we had to actually move to a, um, new school. And, um, we were only about 15 minutes from where we were, but it was.

You know, far enough that it was a new school. So I had to go to school and I had to tell people that I was leaving and I was so ashamed to tell them that it was because my parents were getting divorced. And, um, so yeah, there was like this stigma there. And, um, I remember I had this wonderful teacher. I was in fifth grade and I told her and she, she actually, Bought me lunch and like sat with me and, you know, talk to me and stuff.

Um, tried to make me feel better in whatever way she could make me feel better. No, that totally makes sense. And wow, that's impressive that that teacher would do that. I, the response that we've heard a lot of times, there was one young woman who came on the podcast and she said that she told her teachers, she told her friends and everyone kind of knew also, cause it was a little bit of a public separation, she said, and everyone acted like it wasn't a big deal.

Everyone acted like it was kind of like a normal part of life kind of like, okay, you know, whatever move on with it And I remember she said she felt so hurt by that because who she was like wait Why am I struggling so much with this if everyone says this is for the best? This is everyone's gonna be happier and I'm so hurt by it.

Maybe something's wrong with me And I think that's a very common response So it's awesome you had a teacher at least who tried to acknowledge that yeah, man This is a difficult thing to go through. Well, I mean You Generally speaking, she was the anomaly. Like generally speaking, that's. That's how it was for me as well.

It was kind of like, oh, you know, kids are resilient, they'll, they'll be okay. Like there's, there seems to be this unwillingness, um, by the adults to acknowledge that divorce is harmful to children, even people who I can understand that with people who actually get divorced because. You know, they're probably trying to make themselves feel a little bit better about it.

Um, but like people who haven't been through divorce, even in our culture, it just seems to be, yeah, just a lack of acknowledgement of the effects that it can have on, on kids and, and this desire to, to minimize it. And honestly, I, that happened to me all through my teen years, even my young adult years, even into my thirties.

Um, I did have. You know, a couple of people along the way who noticed my brokenness, but there was still this unwillingness until I was probably in my thirties. I had a, a therapist who finally said to me like, Oh no, like that's, that's your big thing. Like that's where everything else comes from. That the divorce of your parents was.

huge in your life. And I felt like validated finally for like the first time in my life because I had like an adult saying to me, yeah, that really messed you up. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. No, that sounds super impactful. And I totally know what you mean. In fact, we've heard a lot of feedback from even this podcast alone about how validating and helpful it is because of that alone.

It's like, just someone's like putting into words in a way, you know, what They went through as like really harmful and damaging. And I, like, I've even had people reach out in like their 60s who say what you just said, and even just to us saying like, I've never heard anyone put language to this problem the way that you and your guests are doing.

And it's very helpful. It's validating like you said. And so, of course, the goal, I know you and I would agree on this, like, the goal is to help us to kind of, you know, learn how to best navigate this and to move on in life. We don't want to stay stuck in the past, but in a sense, like we need to grieve that we need to.

Just, yeah, like you said, like just someone to validate the heaviness of it and the fact that it's like really impactful, um, in order to be able to, to move forward in life. Absolutely. And, you know, I feel like if we can do that, like it's, it's hard, it's going to be hard, but like, if you can have that step one, then you can take step two, you know, like, I feel like if, if people are constantly telling you or ignoring your pain or telling you, you know, It wasn't that big a deal or you're telling yourself because I used to tell myself that too.

Like, you know, I would hear somebody else's story and I would say, Oh, thankfully my parents divorce wasn't that bad, you know, and sort of minimizing it even to myself. Um, and the reality is that everyone is different. Also, we all, Like I was a very sensitive. I'm a very sensitive person. Like, I guess I would be considered a highly sensitive person, but I was like that, you know, from the time I was a child, um, people labeled me sensitive, shy, that kind of thing.

So like, take someone like me who has such a sensitive personality. Heart and soul and have what happened, which was not like there was no abuse. There was no, um, infidelity. There was, it was just a marriage that just. Failed, you know, and so I didn't have all these like extreme trauma situations in that, but it's still really traumatized me because of how I made, you know, and, and what I needed as a kid, I needed that security.

No, that makes so much sense. Thanks for sharing that. The definition of trauma that we learned from a therapist that we partner with is that trauma is anything that overwhelms your natural ability to cope. And so you're right. And some scenarios, maybe people through training or through some sort of, you know, natural ability, have the ability to kind of cope with more difficult things or things that are more challenging.

Another person might not be able to, but honestly, since what I've seen is like divorce is almost always traumatic. I'm tempted to say it is always traumatic from the data I've seen in the Hundreds of stories I've heard if not more, um, but it is, it is in itself traumatic regardless of what led up to it, which can also be traumatic too, right?

I was curious, you know, following the divorce and everything that happened in the family, how did you see that impact you? Well, being sensitive the way that I am, um, and also being shy and kind of like socially anxious just as a kid be prior to all of this, you know, um, um, One of the things that happened is my mom went to work full time and so we were left home alone a lot.

I had an eight year old sister so I was kind of in charge of her after school. I developed a lot of anger at being, having to be so responsible and also a lot of fears of, because I was alone a lot and I felt um, like abandoned. I used to go to bed at night and just pray that I would wake up in the morning and it would all have been a dream.

And I started to cope in very unhealthy ways. A lot of my friendships were very unhealthy. I would gravitated towards people who were broken and they sort of helped break me even more. Uh, I had unhealthy relationships with. Boys and men gravitated towards people who were broken, who broke me even more.

And, you know, just a lot of self destructive kind of behaviors, like as I got older, like the older I got in my teenage years and my, you know, like early, like college years, I would say I got the more self destructive I got. And I did a lot of coping with, alcohol and things like that to try to numb, to try to, you know, with the social anxiety, it was like trying to mitigate that.

But also just the, I think I just developed this like deep self loathing because I just did not feel loved or lovable anymore. And then, you know, the more that you do that self destructive, the worse it gets, the more the self loathing gets because you go, why am I doing these things? Why is this happening?

And then, you know, you have people in your life who are treating you poorly or leading you down these bad pathways to all these other things. So, um, I think that's, you know, that all stems from the, the lack of security, like the destruction of security that I had and the loneliness. I was deeply lonely. I still struggle with loneliness.

In my life just internally, um, even though I'm surrounded by amazing people who, who love me, you know, there's just, you know, it's a wound. It's a wound that still exists that I have to, you know, continue to work on. Sure. Wow. No, thank you for sharing. And, and there's so much I want to say. I, um, Yeah, I can relate with the loneliness, certainly, and feeling abandoned and, you know, wishing it was a dream, like, that's a definitely a moving way to put it.

It makes so much sense, like, what we've seen a lot of times is if we, you know, are traumatized by the breakdown of our family, by our parents of worse, we tend to, you know, like you said, go towards unhealthy people and behaviors. And then, like you said so well, those situations can traumatize us further, and then we go into further.

Unhealthy toward unhealthy people and behaviors and it's just this whole like circle the cycle that repeats itself again and again To where I mean i've talked with people who are just at the point of like giving up They're like I i'm so sick and tired of this. I my life is just miserable. I feel stuck I'm, just in a really rough spot.

And so Definitely hear you there and excited to hear the happier part of the story, but man, how heavy and how difficult and yeah, I'm curious to, you know, in your relationships, how that played out as well. Like, what, what, um, did you see in terms of your dating relationships and even your marriage already touched on the relationships a little bit, but I'm curious further of like, how did the breakdown of your family, your parents, divorce impact your relationships?

Yeah. So I'm sure you experienced like a feeling of powerlessness. Um, and so. The way I coped with that is I became controlling. And so, um, and that is something to this day. I, I really struggle with, I'm a lot better than I used to be. And I, but I'm also very much aware of it. So I ha I work on it. I'm working on it constantly, but you know, so, so there was that, then I also felt voiceless.

So I have a tendency to be Reactionary. So like if something happens and I'm not happy about it, you're going to hear it. You're going to know about it because I'm not going to be. I'm not going to be voiceless, you know, um, so, you know, in my marriage that, that has played out and it's, it's something that we've had to work on.

Um, you know, my husband is an, an amazing man and very, very patient. Um, he's also got his own wounds and, you know, in marriage, your wounds kind of usually butt up against your spouse's wounds and then you have to try to figure out how to, how to work that all out. Um, and. We have worked really hard at that.

So, um, but one of the ways that especially played out in my marriage, that was my, my husband owns a business. And when we got married, it was probably the most intense, intensely difficult time in there. Um, it really was, it was really difficult, um, for me at that time and. Because of the anxiety and, and the depression that I suffered with, I felt like, I feel like I couldn't really love my kids the way that they deserve to be loved.

You know, I, I regret that and I, I still have to try to ask God to heal that part. Um, I mean, I, I did what I, Needed to do I wasn't neglectful but like just there wasn't there was an internal part of me that just couldn't give you know everything that I would have liked to have given to them when they were kids and I also parented kind of out of.

Rather than abundance. So like I was fearful of things happening to them and I was, I didn't, I don't think I was able to give them the freedom that they should have had as kids to really be kids, you know, because I was too afraid all the time that something terrible was going to happen to them. So. Yeah, those are pretty intense ways that it affected me, but there is good news.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you just sharing so vulnerably. And I know I can relate to so much of your story and I know our listeners can too. And yeah, no, I've noticed that in my own life, it seems like. Our, yeah, our brokenness just holds us back in so many ways, like one of the ways in which I know it's held me back is I'm definitely I'm going to avoid an attachment type where I tend to like love at arm's length.

And I try to work through that, but like, yeah, there's times where I'm just really bad. Like, I'll just be honest with everyone. And so like, I need to kind of bring myself back to the point of like, okay, I'm not self sufficient. I need other people and I need to like love them and, you know, put my heart out there and be vulnerable and not just like, you know, try to put a shield around myself and my heart.

But, you know, especially when people hurt you, it can, it's a really easy reaction to, to go towards. But, you know, so that holds you back in the sense of, you know, you're not going to experience the joy, the intimacy, the love, the happiness that I think we're made for. And so, you know, and other things I've heard from people like us who come from divorced, broken families is, you know, there's so much fear, like, I think that's one theme we've seen so clearly among all these interviews we've done is like, there's just so much fear that we grapple with, not to say that other people don't, but it seems like there, there's like a certain intensity or we feel maybe a certain lack of competence or ability to like navigate through that fear.

Or maybe we just, you know, feel it. Like I said, more strongly, and that just holds us back. Like, I know a lot of older people I've talked to come from, you know, uh, broken families, like, especially maybe in there in like sixties or beyond, they have regrets of like, man, I never took that risk. I never started that business.

I never like pursued that, you know, person, that girl, that guy. And, um, and I, we've definitely seen that theme. So yeah, just curious if you have any thoughts on kind of that whole theme of like being held back and fear being having such a strong grip on so many of us. Oh my gosh. Yes. And, and. You know, I think it's because we have this deep sense of what loss feels like.

And so, you know, we don't want to lose anymore. You know, we don't want to have, we don't want to have that feeling of loss. And so we hold on to what we have and we don't take the risks that could cause the losses. And, you know, for some people, for me, it didn't manifest this way, but for some people, it means I'm never getting married.

Because I, because I can't risk that, that I'm going to do the same thing that my parents did or whatever, um, you know, it manifests in different people in different ways. And it absolutely has manifested that way in my life. And I'm, I'm just now getting to the point where I'm starting to take more risks and, and realizing, like, I have to surrender.

I have to surrender this control that I've I It's really an illusion. It's not, you know, you're not, we're not in control of anything. You know, we, we're trying to control things. We're not, we're not in control of anything. So like, what's the point? No, it's so true. I even think of that on like the career side, like when I've, you know, making the shift to doing this full time, I was like really afraid of losing, losing like a stable job and all of that.

And then, you know, as you're married an entrepreneur, some of you guys are immune to this, but, you It's, uh, yeah, no, it was just like, so fearful. And then it was so funny once I made at least the partial shift, I'm actually in the process now of making the full shift. I was like, Oh, that's it. Like, all right, I could do this.

Like I can make it through. So, and I think that's a good part to add here, perhaps it's like that, like you said, those fears can often be just this illusion. And the desire to control can just be the solution. Then when we look at it, it's like, you know, like using the career example, it's like, okay, there are certainly like stable, like jobs and businesses out there that are, you know, can add a level of stability to that.

Maybe going on your own would be really hard to achieve, at least in the short term. But at the end of the day, it's like, I mean, what we saw through COVID and everything, it's like, things can change very quickly. And what you thought was one stable, like becomes Pretty darn unstable. And so I think there's, it kind of forces you to like surrender.

Um, especially like in your relationship with God, it's like, man, I really don't control this stuff. Like you said so well, it's, it really is an illusion. And I think that's where I've personally found a lot of peace in life. It's like, God's going to put things on my plate. He wants me to do well with them, but then beyond like the things that are within my control, even then I have to surrender, you know, everything, including that stuff to Him.

And that That, that's definitely helped me because I struggle. I've struggled with anxiety too. And at times I could get, you know, more intense than others. But, um, yeah, that surrender certainly played a huge role because you're right. It's nothing's fully stable. Sadly, I want to shift to kind of the happier part of the story and just, you know, kind of the transformation.

And so I'm curious, what were some of the things that helped you to, to cope and healthy ways and to heal? I think I would say first, My relationship with my husband, you know, I met him, we were in college and I was pretty broken at that time. He was a little broken himself and God just brought us together at that particular time.

And he was, came from a Catholic family. I came from a family where I was baptized and, and I made my first penance and my first Holy communion. Um, but then my parents split up and we were sort of like, Nominal Catholics anyway, um, so I never made my confirmation and I didn't even know when I met my husband, I didn't even know if I believed in God at that point because I thought, you know, it's all this terrible things have happened to me.

Like, how could there be a God, you know, that's where I was. Um, so anyway, when I met him, he sort of his influence on me. Was really like the starting point of my healing journey, which continues to this day because he Eventually kind of had like a reversion and and really started getting serious about his faith And he kind of brought me along with him and it was sort of like you're either coming along with me or we're breaking up you know like I You know, I love you, but I, I have to be married to someone who's Catholic and I have to be, you know, in the same universe there.

So, um, I am a truth seeker and I always have been. So I just started looking into things and they just started bringing true to me. And so I made my confirmation as a, I was almost 25 when I made my confirmation. So that was, that was like probably the initial thing. But then, um, You know, there was periods of time when I needed therapy and I already spoke of the one therapist, this was a Catholic therapist.

if anyone's, you know, if you're Catholic or Christian, I really recommend a Catholic or Christian therapist who really will speak the same language as you and who, who sees marriage in the same light, you know, cause like for me to go to a secular therapist who maybe would think divorce is okay, that that wasn't going to be helpful for me.

Um, so to have that therapist say, like, Yeah, that was your that's your like your primal wound that also was very healing and it set me on a path of healing. You know, having, having different thoughts about what happened. And then I, more than the therapy, at least having like the life of the church, the life of the church, the sacraments, the community, um, just being in community with people.

We were involved in charismatic prayer for a while. That was extremely healing. Um, because I learned more about. God and his love and what he wanted to do for us. And I developed a community of people in our parish and also through homeschooling. We homeschooled for 10 years and that got me involved in some Bible studies.

And I developed these friendships that were very vulnerable. And that has been one of the biggest ways that I've healed is through these relationships with people who are also willing to be vulnerable about. their stories, people who will pray with me. Um, we pray for each other. And, um, so those, those have been extremely healing.

I've also been blessed to be introduced to deliverance prayer. And for those who don't know, deliverance prayer is really just Identifying where the enemy, the devil has gained access to you through your wounds and whispered lies into your life and over you and, and who has, you know, and where you've kind of agreed with them.

Like, so, for example, like, I'm unlovable is a lie and that comes from, um, My parents must not have loved me enough to stay together. So, like, that's a lie. And then you agree with that lie, and you go, That must be true. And then you start operating out of that lie. Like, I actually am unlovable. Which is false.

So, Deliverance Prayer is really, like, renouncing those lies and saying, You know, in the name of Jesus, I renounced that lie. And, um, that was extremely helpful for me to go through all the lies and the vows and the curses and all the things that have, like, piled on through the years. Yeah, no, so good. I want you to continue, but I, um Just wanted to comment on like that, the intimacy portion.

I mean, all everything you said is so good, but the, the way that I've understood it, like listening to dr. Bob shoots, for example, um, I forget who he quotes when he says this, but he was saying like at the root of every wound is a deprivation or a distortion of love. And so it like naturally follows that to.

To heal those wounds, we need authentic love, you know, in, in various forms, right? You talked about your relationship with God, you talked about your relationship with your husband, other people, like, it makes sense that like authentic love would be so healing and beautiful. And that's one of the principles we preach to is, you know, healing happens in relationship.

Like it can't happen elsewhere. Like we can't really, yeah. Listening to a podcast, reading a book, doing getting the content is good. It's like one of the steps in this whole process. But eventually you have to go beyond that. And so it sounds, you know, like that was extremely helpful and fruitful for you, which is beautiful, but I'm curious.

Yeah. Anything else to add in terms of what helped you to heal? Yeah. I mean, The way to heal feeling unlovable is to allow people to love you. And I have so many people who love me and I feel incredibly blessed because of that. Like, sometimes it brings me just to tears that the, the number of people who God has brought into my life to love me and, and then give me the opportunity to love back.

It is that relationship. Relationship is one of the biggest ways to healing has been for me. So good. No, I love it. And one of the things I just learned from you too, is that like the, the answer to insecurities is evidence in the sense that like, we need to be shown and told and very like concrete ways that like, no, like you said, believe in that lie that I'm unlovable.

We need evidence to say that, no, that's actually not true. Because one of the things I've seen in like the whole self, self help, you know, personal development world is like, they'll tell you to like, talk to a mirror, write down in your journal, like these things that you, you know. believe that are true about you.

But if there's no evidence to back it up, like you can't point to some other person or situation, like God being one of them, or, you know, your relationships, then I think it just is empty. We're saying things that maybe, you know, they might be true in the end, but if we don't have like any evidence to back them up with, and I think it can be tricky and problematic and we end up doubting it.

But when you have that clear evidence, like again, people in your life where you like telling you these things are showing you through their actions, then I think it's way more convincing. Um, you know, we're always at work in progress. We talk about healing as like this infinite goal of like, you know, we're always becoming like better, stronger, more virtuous, more whole, more healthy, healthier.

Um, but I'm curious, kind of the transformation that you've seen from that younger you to where you are now, like contrast that a little bit for us. Like what's different now? Yeah. I mean, I definitely, I feel like healing comes in layers and it comes in seasons and it comes, um, sometimes it comes all at once in a flurry, sometimes it's super slow and I've experienced all those things in my life and I feel like I may, while I still struggle with anxiety, I still struggle with depression, I am much more able to surrender.

And when I'm experiencing those things to go to God and just say, God, I just, I can't do this. I need you to do this for me. One of the things that has helped me a lot is adoration and just really just going in front of the blessed sacrament and just. Just laying it all out, you know, and just saying, God, I, I can't, I can't.

There was a period of time five or six years ago where I was in the Adoration Chapel almost every day because I needed to be there with Jesus. And it helped me tremendously. But I also now can look back and say, that was a very, very healing time because I was so stripped down and I was so vulnerable that he really worked.

A lot. And really it set the stage for where I am today, the certain risks that I'm now taking in certain areas where God is saying like, go here, do this, you know, and I also am able, I feel like I'm much more self aware. I know what my triggers are. I know what my wounds are and I'm, I'm starting to be able to operate outside of my wounds instead of in them all the time, you know, there's a period of time in my life where I was just everything I did was just out of my wounds, you know, like every reaction I had every step I took was all out of my wounds.

And now I feel like. I can sort of step back and, and see the wounds and they're there and I feel them still, but they're not ruling me constantly, you know, and I think I, I've developed a compassion for the younger me, you know, I hated the younger me for the longest time for being so dumb and getting involved in all these things that were hurtful and for being, you know, in my mind, weak and, you know, all these different things that, you know, The self loathing and stuff like now i think i have more compassion for my younger self i think it's why i can have i have a lot of compassion for people who are going through kids who are going through what what i went through and i also feel like i'm growing a lot in trust and surrender and trying to grow in humility i feel like i think when you have these kinds of wounds you're it can be real um, Pitfall for, for pride to like really jump in because you have this sense of justice and this feeling of like, I have to protect myself.

And so like everything becomes about you and what you you're getting out of things and, and how you're not going to get hurt and you're not going to let this happen and all that. And I think that can be, it can cause a lot of pride in our lives. The pride thing is so interesting. I've never heard it said exactly like that, but it makes so much sense that we, yeah.

Cause like, I guess the essence of pride is kind of like continue looking in on yourself, you know, continue looking, being kind of self absorbed self. And sometimes, you know, There is that kind of survival, survival, survivor instinct that we do that when we're wounded, right? We kind of just, if we're in pain, we need to take care of the pain and the wound.

But it is really interesting. And I think that is a, such a pivotal part of healing is kind of going outside of yourself, going beyond yourself. And I found that helpful too. I've mentioned in other podcasts just, yeah, the advice, you know, I've gotten from mentors where it's like, okay, I know you're hurting, I know you're, And you need to heal that.

But one of the things that can be so helpful is just kind of looking beyond your own pain and finding people in your life who you can love and you can help. And again, not as an escape from dealing with their own stuff, because I think it can be used that way, but really as a way of like, okay, there's other people in the world who are suffering too.

And I've, that's just been helpful for me, but yeah, just that whole idea of humility of like not putting yourself down. Like CS Lewis said, I said this not long ago in an episode, it's like, you're not thinking. Less of yourself, just thinking of yourself less. Yes. I totally agree with that. I, yes, I feel like in order to heal, um, you do have to get outside of yourself because we, we tend to go.

Inside, we tend to, you know, think about constantly what happened to us or what went wrong or whatever. And I think in any situation, and I'm just talking about divorce, anything, anytime you have someone who's experienced trauma, I feel like part of the healing is. Getting outside of yourself outside of your own mind and helping other people.

And, you know, at some point I, um, I don't know where if I came across this or if it was given to me just in like revelation, but I got this, um, word that was given to me. You don't need to be healed in order to do you need to do in order to be healed and that has really been beautiful that has been sort of a quote that has played in my mind over and over over the last few years as I've experienced really a much deeper healing period and.

you know, I felt like God has really called me out of myself in the last few years and, and said like, no, you need to start doing like, I know you don't feel totally equipped and I know you don't feel totally ready. And I know that you still have these issues that you deal with, but you need to start doing, and that's where the healing is going to come.

And as I've done things, yes, that is, that has been true. And so then that reinforces to me, like, okay, God's got me. He His word is true. What he's saying to me is true when I pray and I get these. You know words from him like it's it's true and I have to I have to listen Beautiful. Well, I love that and I I was thinking of just like kind of the physical form of what you just said of like You know Don't wait to heal to do like do and then you'll be healed through that and I was thinking of a surgery I got while while back and I remember the doctors telling me like, okay, it's gonna be painful And this is counterintuitive, but you need to like move a lot.

You need to walk a lot in order to get blood flow to the wound in order for it to heal. And it was, it was, it was painful to do that. But as I did it, the wound healed and I got better. And now I have, you know, full function of that part of my body. And so, um, it would have been really easy though, kind of to your point to think, well, I'll start walking and moving when I feel healed, but it's like, no, no, no.

It's like through the walking, the moving, Then you feel healed. So I thought that was really interesting that there's like a physical truth there too. Yeah. I mean, I experienced that similarly last year. I broke my foot and I was on crutches for like eight weeks and in a boot for another eight weeks. And by the time it was all over, it hurt to walk.

And you know, so I had to go to physical therapy and they had to manipulate it and it hurt. And you know, I had to do these exercises, but now it's, you know, it's all better and it is going to hurt. Do I think a lot of people want to just like turtle up and I, I turtled up, you know, for a long time, I just curled up in a ball and didn't do anything.

And I think a lot of people want to let their wounds sit there and just let them, you know, heal, but they're not always going to heal. Sometimes they have to be scraped out, you know, and sometimes. I heard, I listened to this podcast sometimes called the place we find ourselves. And I remember, you know, that, yeah, great podcast.

Um, and he, I remember him talking about the healing of wounds and how, you know, you have to go down into the valley in order to get back up to the mountain top. You know, so and you have to go through it. There's no way around it if you want to get up to the top of that mountain, you have to go through that valley.

You can't go around it. And yeah, it's hard and it's painful, but it's so worth it. And it's so rewarding when you get to the top and you can say, Oh, my gosh, I did it. You know, I made it through that. And then you're you are stronger. You really are. Yeah. Stronger. Everything that I've gone through has made me a stronger person.

I love that. And then you're better able to love. And I think one of the things I've seen too, when it comes to just healing in the people's lives is that like, when you kind of walk through that, you, on the other side of maybe comfort of shut shelling up on the other side of like, you know, the brokenness is freedom, that there's a lot of freedom, but you said, you're right.

Like there's pain in the middle, which I think scares a lot of people. Cause we, we don't like pain obviously, but we don't know. Maybe if it'll, Will be worth it. We don't know if we're going to be able to get to the mountaintop. Um, and so I totally get that there's a lot of like doubts and insecurities there, but, but I've found, yeah, when you kind of work through that, you feel free and you truly find freedom, but it is painful to get there.

And I think too, there's definitely a trend right now. And I'm curious your thoughts on this and our world of just kind of falling into this like perpetual victim mode mentality, right? Where we. Yeah, just kind of blame everything and anyone around us for not being, you know, able to move forward in life.

And I'm not talking about like serious disabilities, things like that, but you know, I haven't even seen this in myself. It can be easy to blame even our parents, you know, and one of the ways that we talk about this, just to clarify anyone who's confused on this is like, we're not saying not to acknowledge the pain that someone caused, or even the fact that they like, they did that, they, they need to take ownership of that.

But the way we talk about it is like, even if you didn't cause the problem, you can take ownership of the solution. You don't need to let that define your life. You don't need to let that someone else write your own story. Like you can write your own story. And we're big believers in that. Um, so, but yeah, it's sad to see, especially, you know, in younger generations, um, you know, Just how like debilitating I think brokenness and wounds can be, like you said, where we just kind of shell up and just be like, well, this is what my life is going to be like now.

Can't really improve it. Get any better. Um, even if there was this kind of long shot, I could, it's not really worth it to go through it. So just curious on your thoughts on the whole victim mentality thing. I mean, I definitely had that mentality for a long time and it's really hard when you're feeling, you know, stuck to get out of that.

Honestly, like I, there were times when I wanted to give up or plenty of times when I wanted to give up, but then I, I looked around me and I thought, like, I would see my kids or I would see my husband and I would say, like, uh, they deserve me to be better. They deserve for me to be more whole and I deserve for me to be more whole.

Like, I don't have to be like this. I don't broken is what happened to me. It's not who I am. You know, like. I'm not Stacy, the broken woman, I'm Stacy, and I have some brokenness because of what happened to me. Like, I can't define myself by that. For so many years, I think I defined myself by my brokenness, by my wounds, by my things that I did that were shameful.

And, you know, I just, at some point, You have to make a decision. Like, this is your life. You only get one. You have to decide. Do you want to live stuck in your wounds and feeling sorry for yourself your whole life? Or do you want to try to climb out of that and live abundantly and joyfully? And does that mean you're not gonna suffer?

No. Like, we're all gonna suffer. I'm gonna suffer a lot more before I die. So are you. So is everybody else. But it doesn't mean that you're not going to have joy in your life and that it's, it's not worth it. It is worth it. It's, it's so worth it. Wow. So good. I have nothing to add. Like you said that so beautifully that thank you and shifting gears a little bit and coming to the close of our conversation.

I'm just curious if you were to sit down with your parents and talk to them about this, or maybe if they were, you know, happened to listen to this, what would you want them to know? Like, I mean, I'm very blessed because my parents. Got to a place where we actually like do holidays together and stuff, you know, and I'm also very blessed because my mom has had the humility to let me talk to her about how I was wounded and, and to sit there and, and listen and be open to that.

And it has been very healing for me, but also very healing for our relationship. And so. You know, I don't I'm not talking about this because I want to blame like you said, like, I don't blame my parents. I don't have animosity toward my parents. I love my parents. They're wonderful people. Um, I forgive them for, you know, the ways that they failed me.

I hope my kids. will forgive me someday for the ways that I failed them. I want to be able to help other people see that this is not the end of the road for them, you know, and that's why I want to talk about these things. And, you know, I feel like you have to talk about them. In order to, to bring them into the light, because you can't heal broken things if you, if they're in the darkness, you know, you have to bring all things to the light and I know people don't like to talk about these things, but you have to, I feel like with anything that's broken, it needs to be talked about in order for it to, to heal.

And also I'm, you know, in terms of my parents, like, everything that I went through. It was just, honestly, the other day I was in adoration and I was sitting there and I was just praying. And I thought, and all of a sudden this flood of like the tapestry of my life came to me and how God worked all the things that happened for good.

And all of the different people who have come into my life and all of the wonderful things that have happened to me and all that. It was, it was just an opening of my eyes to like, it's not all bad. It wasn't all bad and it's not going to be all bad. You know, there's so much good in your life and there's so much joy in your life and there's so much left still for you to do in your life.

And so, you know, I just want to, I want people to have hope that even if they're dealing with brokenness and pain, that they're not always going to be that way. And even if they have periods of Healing where they're feeling better, and then they kind of regress. It's okay, like, you're not gonna stay there.

You're gonna, you're gonna move forward again. Cause, you know, St. Teresa of Avila says, like, um, let nothing disturb you. All things are passing. You know, all things are passing. And God alone suffices. And, if you bring it to God, Then he will, weave it into a beautiful tapestry. No, I love all that. And I think there's even lessons for any parents listening right now, just how your mom was able to listen to you and, you know, perhaps she asked some questions and was able to kind of take ownership of her piece of it.

I think that's really, really big. And, uh, yeah, and then you both are able to, you know, you were able to get to a point of forgiving her, which is really, really beautiful. Um, so good. And I love that reminder too. I mean, there's so much in what you said, but one thing I wanted to point out too, is that when you kind of go on this path of trying to heal from brokenness, then we need to be ready to give ourselves some grace to along the way.

Like we can't expect. You know, like perfection in this process, because it's messy, it's not going to be perfect. And if you do expect that, which I know so many of us who come from broken families do kind of struggle with the control that we talked about before perfectionism. And, uh, if you do expect that, then it's going to be, yeah, just a really difficult process.

Much more difficult process for you. So I think just giving yourself grace, kind of how you might give grace to another person who you saw is like, man, they're going through a hard time. I think is, is really, really good. But then, like you said, also having that hope that like, there's so much good ahead of you that, That if you, you know, work at it and rely on God's grace, like you said, you can experience that.

Like, I firmly believe that. In closing, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on here. I know this is like, um, it's an act of bravery. I don't say that enough when people come on here to share their stories, because it's not an easy thing to do. So thank you. And I just wanted to give you the last word when it comes to, you know, what would you say to the younger you to that?

young woman who's listening right now, who maybe feels stuck in life. They feel broken. They're acting out in all these sorts of ways. Like, what would you want to say to them? I would say like, for me, I wish I had been, I wish I had been able to articulate to the adults in my life that how much I was hurting.

I wish I'd been able to articulate that to the adults in my life, um, how much I was hurting and like, you do have a voice and you can use your voice and you don't have to sit back and say like, I can't say anything because it'll hurt my mom's feelings or my dad will be upset. Or I don't really have a voice because this isn't my thing.

You know, like I just have to go along and not say anything. Like I would say it. And if you feel like you can't talk to your parents. Talk to a trusted person that you, you know, adult, a pastor, a family member, a friend, whoever it is, and, and know that how you're feeling is, is normal. Like, there's nothing abnormal about you.

There's nothing abnormal about how you're reacting to this. There's nothing abnormal about how you're feeling. And there's nothing wrong. You're not wrong. So, just understand that your, your feelings matter. That would be, that would be one thing. And then, another thing would be, if you're, especially if like you're a young adult and you're discerning marriage.

I would say if you can work through some of your divorce pain prior to getting married, whether that be alone or with your, um, future spouse or, you know, then I would highly recommend that because we do bring our baggage into our marriages with us and unaddressed wounds and pain can become real problems in relationships.

And if we don't have the awareness of. You know, our thought patterns and behaviors and stuff like that. It can be, it can be difficult to navigate once you're already married. So that, that would be a suggestion that I have. There's so much I loved about that interview. Stacy has really deep insights into healing and brokenness, and I'm really grateful that she joined us.

And if you'd like to share your story with us, like Stacy did, We'd love to hear it. You can do it in three simple steps. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story in a really active way and sharing that story with someone who can receive it with empathy is actually healing on a neurobiological level.

According to a neurobiologist, it actually makes your brain healthier. Writing your story is also healing. There's been numerous studies that show that People who write about emotionally significant events in their life are happier, they're healthier, they're less depressed, less anxious, and so many other great benefits.

And also, sharing your story can be super helpful to someone who's maybe going through what you went through and who can learn some lessons from you. By reading your story. And so if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com slash story. And on that page, you just fill out a form that tells a short version of your story.

And then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. Again, if you want to share your story, just go to restored ministry. com slash story, or just click on the link. And the show notes, if you come from a broken or divorced family, or maybe, you know, someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast.

Our resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and so much more. And all of our resources are really designed to help you heal from the trauma you've endured and build virtue. So you can break the cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view these resources for yourself or someone, you know, just go to restored.

mini. com.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, feel free to share this podcast with them. I promise you, they will be super grateful that you did. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And CS Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#115: The Antidote to a Life of Emptiness | Dr. Andrew & Sarah Swafford

It’s said that Henry David Thoreau once wrote, “Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.” Doesn’t that describe our culture? A culture that’s hooked on comfort and so void of meaning. 

But thankfully, Dr. Andrew and Sarah Swafford have a solution to that problem. In this episode, we discuss:

• What holds us back from lives and relationships full of meaning?

• What’s needed to live a life of meaning and happiness?

• How do we navigate the dating scene today?

• How can you heal your brokenness?

If you’ve ever felt that ache of wanting more from life, don’t miss this episode.

Buy the Book: Gift & Grit: How Heroic Virtue Can Change Your Life and Relationships

Donate to Restored

Meet with Joey for Restored’s Donor Pitch

Visit Dakota Lane Fitness

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• The Swafford’s Website

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

There's a quote that's attributed to Henry David Thoreau that goes like this, Most men, most humans, live lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still inside them. Again, most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still inside them. Do you think that describes our culture?

I certainly do. I think it describes a culture that's so busy, so glued to our phones, so hooked on comfort and on things that really don't matter and so void of meaning. But thankfully, my guests today, Dr. Andrew and Sarah Swafford, Have a solution to that problem. We hit on questions in this episode, like what holds us back from living lives and relationships full of meaning what's needed to live a life and relationships that are full of meaning and happiness.

How do we navigate the dating scene today? They have a lot of great insight and advice there. How can you heal? Your brokenness. And then we also talk about the experience that so many of us feel of feeling like we're a gift that's not really worth giving or not worth keeping. We talked a little bit about what you can do about that.

And so if you've ever felt that ache of just wanting more in life, wanting better relationships and more meaningful life, make sure you don't miss this episode. Stay with us.

Welcome podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation, or broken marriage. So you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 115. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback.

One person left this review on Apple Podcasts. They said, five stars must listen. I'm not religious. So some ideas discussed here are new to me, yet I've gotten so much out of this podcast. I breathe easier. Listening to Joey discuss a lot of the common feelings, adult, children of divorce experience. Again, we're so happy that you found this podcast helpful and even healing.

We do it for you. And if you've found it, this podcast helpful, and if you want to help us to reach more young people who come from broken families, I wanted to tell you about this really exciting opportunity that we have a donor. generously offered a 50, 000 matching gift. You heard that right? A 50, 000 matching gift to help us grow this podcast and help us to grow the nonprofit behind this podcast.

And so the deadline for this is February 29. And so if you want to help us to again, grow the podcast, to build better resources for teenagers and adults who come from divorced and broken families, and just to help us get those resources into their hands. We'd be honored to partner with you. I'll tell you more at the end of this episode, but you can just click on the link in the show notes.

If you want to meet with me, I'd love to personally meet with you, uh, to tell you more about our plans and the resources that we have already built and plan to build in the future and how they've helped people. Um, or if you don't have time for that and you'd like to contribute, you can just click the link to donate as well.

Again, we'd be so honored to have you as a partner in this and just please know that we take your investment super seriously. And we will put it to the best possible use in helping young people from broken families to break the cycle. Today I'm joined by two amazing guests, Dr. Andrew and Sarah Swafford.

They're international speakers on dating, marriage, the moral and spiritual life, uh, St. John Paul II, and sacred scripture. They're the co hosts. of what we believe the beauty of the Catholic faith from Ascension. Sarah is also the author of the book Emotional Virtue, a guide to drama free relationships, and she's a contributor to Ascension's chosen program.

Andrew, Dr. Saufert, is a professor of theology at Benedictine College and a general editor of the Great Adventure Catholic Bible. He's also the co host of Ascension's Bible studies on Romans and Hebrews, and the author of several books, uh, both Andrew and Sarah live in Atchison, Kansas with their six children.

So, if you couldn't tell, like, obviously there's some talk in this episode about God and about faith, uh, if you don't believe in God. I'm so glad you're here. This podcast, this episode is not just for people who believe in God, it's for anyone. And so if you don't believe in God, my challenge for you would just be to listen with an open mind.

Even if you were to take out the God parts or skip them, you're still going to benefit a lot from this episode. Before we get into the interview, I wanted to thank today's sponsor. This episode is sponsored by Dakota Lane Fitness. If you've ever felt intimidated. By working out, by eating healthy, or maybe you've tried a bunch of workout programs and meal plans that just didn't work for you, this is especially for you.

Dakota Lane is a nationally certified fitness and nutrition coach who's helped about a thousand clients worldwide, including all types of people. Moms of 10 kids, CEOs, MLB baseball players, 75 year olds, and people who've never even stepped foot. In a gym, uh, what Dakota does, what he offers is he builds customized fitness and nutrition plans with around the clock accountabilities to make sure you actually do it.

And one on one coaching for people again, anywhere on the world. And he really offers a safe and approachable environment. I know it can be kind of intimidating if you're not in that whole fitness world to get started, but he's the man for the job. What else makes Dakota different than the insane amount of fitness and health coaches out there?

I want to highlight three things. One is that he's done it himself. He's ripped. He's very fit. He's very healthy. But he's not just like, you know, this buff guy. He's a good, virtuous man too. I know him personally. And he doesn't just invest in his body. in every area of his life, in his spiritual life, in his marriage, as a father, and so much more.

Another thing that makes him unique is he actually studied to become a priest for a little while. He didn't end up becoming a priest, but after he left seminary, he went on to Franciscan University of Steubenville. He went to the Augustine Institute. And while there, he developed this belief that to live a fully human life involves not just growing in one area, like your spiritual life, and neglecting the rest, like your body.

He says that we really do need to care for it all. We need to care for our bodies and restore that body soul relationship so that each of us can become more free, more virtuous, and more free to love. And so Dakota's mission That the final thing I think that sets him apart from others is to really lead people to experience the highest quality of life through intense intentional discipline and treating their bodies the way that they were made to be treated.

And so if you desire that freedom, if you want that transformation, not just physically, but in every area of your life, Dakota can help you. One client of his said this Dakota Lane changed my life. And the best part is that what I once thought was impossible was made so doable and realistic by Dakota.

This program is worth every penny. If you have struggled in the past and can't seem to find a way to change yourself for the better, look no further. Dakota Lane is your man. And so if you want to see what it is that Dakota offers and see the amazing transformations that his clients have achieved, just go to Dakota Lane Fitness.

Dakota Lane Fitness, or just click on the link in the show notes. With that, we're going to jump into our conversation, but Dr. and Sarah Swafford wanted me to say this before we get in there. They wanted me to say that everything that we talk about in a conversation, it might sound like it's really easy to do.

It's not. It's hard. It takes grit. It takes time. It's not something that you can like snap your fingers, uh, and get done. It's something that takes hard work and takes time, like I said. And so just please go into this conversation with that preface that, uh, it does take hard work. We're not trying to say that it's easy, even if we make it seem simple.

So with that, here's my conversation with this amazing couple.

Swoffords, welcome to the show. Hey, it's so great to be with you again. We're such fans of this podcast. Thank you for having us. Hey, we feel mutual. Like it's, it's the same love, the work you guys do and love you both. You guys are amazing. And thank you also for just the beautiful example of a marriage and a family that are healthy and functional and not perfect, I'm sure, but, uh, but it's really a beautiful example that I know.

We always say, don't look too close. And that's always our job, you know, it's like, Hey, we bad about eight for 10, but we hope the other 20 percent isn't in public when our kids lose their mind or things like that. Hey, eight for 10 is good. If a four for 10 in the MLB is a hall of famer. So that's pretty, pretty darn good.

There you go. Well, it's so good to have you. It's so good to talk about this new book that you guys put out. Um, I just hope everyone here can value from your wisdom and the content. And I wanted to start with. Why'd you write this book? I know writing a book is a labor of love. It's not an easy thing to do.

So what was the motivation behind it? Well, writing a book is a labor of love and writing it with your another person, you have to really like that person. No, I'm just kidding. We, we keep joking. We wrote a book and we're still married, so that, that has to be something, right? No, uh, no, no, no, no. We, um, we had a blast writing this book and it was actually.

I don't want to say that it was easy because it was not easy. The devil hated it. Um, but it was definitely one of those books where we have been talking about this stuff and we have been praying through this stuff and we have been sharing the stuff that's in this book for years. And so it was almost like it.

Kind of like emotional virtue with my other book. It was kind of at a point where it was like this needs to go somewhere so that people can access it instead of just sitting around our, our, you know, island in our kitchen talking about these things. So it was more a process of how do we want to, you know, organize this thought?

How do we want to bottle something that is. so important to us and so many themes that we kept seeing come up, especially after the C word after COVID. Um, so it was very much a book that we felt like it was time to put all of this somewhere. So it was hard to write. Um, but it was also easy to write if that makes any sense.

I think we had eight different versions that we passed back and forth to each other. Um, so it, it morphed and changed and moved and was really a breathing, living document, if you will. And, uh, so we had a blast and it's been really fun for people to read it. Sometimes, uh, it's funny, our kids, we are, we have some high school boys, um, and they're like, They would write in the car, like in the column, you know, like, or in the margin, like mom said that dad said that.

And then we had a lot of people were like, I couldn't tell who said what. And so it was neat. I think the more, you know, as you, the more, if you know us pretty well, you're like, Oh yeah, I hear Dr. Swafford. I hear Sarah. I hear, I hear these people coming through. Beautiful. And I know a lot of it was based on your experience in Italy.

Would you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. I mean, it, it, it was fun to write. It kind of came out of us. It had been welling up for a long time. And, uh, so in 2018, um, I taught in our Florence program in spring of 2018 and we had 48 college students over there. And, you know, it was kind of, I mean, I, I've taught, this is, I think my 16th year.

I mean, so a long time, but you get to know them in the classroom and students, we got to know us in the classroom, but to live with them for three months, every meal together, traveling. Long bus trips got to really kind of get to know them at a deeper, deeper level. And, uh, it kind of, uh, it confirmed a lot of things we'd already kind of intuited and seen in our culture, especially you said post COVID that our culture often is like, we don't have a story, you know, we're searching for meaning and purpose and you know, who am I and all these great questions.

And. Uh, so the book, it's about relationships and we did a lot of relationship counseling while we were there, but it's, it's at a deeper level. It's also about meaning and purpose and kind of where is my life going and, and kind of, it, again, it had been brewing for a long time, but living life with these students.

And we had three marriages, for example, come out of that semester. None of those students were dating at the time. In fact, one was in a serious relationship with somebody else and like kind of a bad situation. I mean, so it was like, just like living life together. Um, and it's, so it's, the book kind of touches on a lot of things, uh, but I'd say the red thread again, it's, it's relationships, it's friendships, it's dating, it's, it's marriage, it's our walk with the Lord, it's putting that all in the context of like, what is our life about?

And I think for so many, life's a story with no plot, you give your life meaning. And part of what we long for is meaning that's received, right? And we're all looking for that. And, and, and believers or non believers alike, like we're looking for, you know, what is my life about? That's not something of my own making.

It's not hollow. Uh, it's, it's stable. It's objective. It's real. Uh, and I can kind of stake my life on it. Cause if you don't have that, your relationships really. They're not going to, you know, they're not going to go anywhere. They're not going to be the, I mean, when you're looking for your everything, you're, you know, for someone else to be your savior for someone, when you put all of your worth in what others think of you, or you, you know, everything you do is because someone told you, you should do it, or you feel like you have to do, you know, something like pick this vocation or pick this job or whatever.

Um, one of the things we say a lot is, you know, you, you really want to be cast in a divine play. Like you want, like you want to be given this like great role and you want to, and you want to do that well. And, you know, swath is summons a vocation. Like I'm here for a purpose that's bigger than me. It's a gift, you know?

And, and so I think that that, when people were really latching onto that, you know, like any main meaning that is self made is no meaning at all is something that swath says all the time. And I watch people's eyes get really big. Like. Oh shoot. Because I am, I, Sarah's Wobbard am a recovering perfectionist.

I'm a people pleaser. I'm a firstborn shout out to everybody out there. Who's the control freak and recovering. Um, but I, I really wanted to like manipulate my life. And one of the words that I have been loving, um, in counseling and through spiritual direction and just in my life is, you know, watching for those times when we're grasping and that we're grasping or that word manipulating or that word, you know.

I'll be happy if and when filling in those blanks where you're always feeling like you have to perform. I mean, we can do a whole podcast on just how love, especially from, from our Lord, but also love and a relationship, um, in a friendship or whatever, you know, when you know, and feel like it's a performance based love.

And you have to earn it or you have to deserve it or you have to like bend over backwards to keep it and you can't have any weaknesses and you can't have any failures and you have to be perfect. Like I'm exhausted talking about it. You know what I mean? Like it's just, but, but how many people live like that?

And so we really wanted to hit. In this book, we wanted to drill really down deep because you know, Swafford's we love talking about relationships. We love talking about dating marriage. We love talking about all the things, but if you take two people and put them in a relationship, if you don't get that, what is my life about?

What am I living for? What is my definition of love? If you don't get those core questions, if you're not asking those questions and you don't have definitions for those questions, um, then that's really, really, the word is it really isn't the big enough word. It will severely affect your relationships.

And I think we've all felt that, um, in a positive and a negative way in our lives. And so we really wanted to get at the heart of that question. Beautiful. Yeah. No, it's, it's shaky ground to stand on. If you don't have that deep reason to live, that's bigger than yourselves. And, and that's kind of the definition of meaning that I.

Again, from Viktor Frankl, um, And I found that super helpful. And so I'd love to talk with you more about that, but I do want to start with the problem. You guys already touched on this a little bit, but I'm curious, what are you seeing in the lives of the young people that you're leading? What barriers are holding them back from living lives and relationships that are full of meaning and joy?

Fear, I think is a big driver. I think people are. Um, they're afraid of letting go of certain things that might be familiar to them or patterns that are familiar or ways of coping that they've, they've developed over the years, but also like these images they have of themselves. They live in the shadows, right?

I mean, this is, this is who this group expects me to be. And so that group expects me to be, it's how my parents expect me to be. And some of that can be good, but some of it can be really debilitating. It's like, and there's a really, there's a, there's a need to take off the shackles of to be who we were made to be.

Um, and that deep kind of resonance that's authentic, it's, it's coming up from the groundswell, um, and to stop living in the shadows of all this fear of all these things on the outside. And then we we've seen myself, Sarah, I mean, and students that. Man, it's so liberating, but like, it's like so many things you have to, you know, a door's got to close before a new one opens and that's terrifying.

It's scary. So, you know, we, we, you know, I, I think like a sloth is like my favorite. Ah, that was exactly the word I was like, Oh yeah. Well, I think it's the vice for age. It's not just laziness. It's, it's a sadness at the difficulty of the good. It's like, I want to be great, but that looks too hard. And so I'm sad and you can't just like sit in that sadness.

So you've got to find outlets. Right. And so. It could be comfort food, it might be food, it might be pornography, drugs, sex, alcohol, something to kind of numb the pain or, or just kind of an entertainment, right? It might be the 24 hour news cycle, it might be kind of mindless scrolling on the phone, just something to kind of like sports news to kind of like numb the pain cause I don't want to be alone with my thoughts.

So I think part of it is I'm taking students through Augustus Confessions right now and at one point he's like, I finally, the Lord got me to look at myself. Like I wouldn't look at myself, my life, cause you know, I don't want to see myself. And a lot of people when they're not doing well, like they don't want to be alone with their thoughts.

They don't want to, they don't want to, you know, and part of it's like, come face to face with yourself, come face to face with who you really want to be and ask yourself like, are the decisions we're making, the people we're surrounding ourselves with, is that taking me toward or away from that? Uh, and it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's a long journey, but it's the same old stuff.

It's, I mean, things change. COVID changes things. But, you know, it's, it's the same things that have snared humanity throughout history. Yeah. You look for love in all the wrong places. You want to be seen, known, and heard. And we're thirsty for it, um, but it's easy to kind of fill up, um, you know, in, in dregs of, um, poison that won't fill us up.

But, We go back again and again and again. Well, one of the things that with sloth as he was speaking, I was like, it's a lot like a lot of people don't even Know that word or they think it means like laziness And I love when when swath explains it to the college students or you know We're like giving a talk or something.

He always says It's also, it's not laziness because it could be like the, I want to distract myself. I want to just like, it's hard. So I'm just going to roll over and die. And like, it's like New Year's resolutions. You're like, this sounds great. And then it's like January 6th. And you're like, just kidding.

You know what I mean? It's like, no, it's too hard. Um, but he always talks about how it's also, you could, you could be living in sloth and be like a workaholic. Like you're, you're just trying to mask. I see this in a lot of people's lives. Adult, young adult. I mean, almost kids too. Busy that drowns out that.

So that silence, you know, you might work in a, you know, a hard, you know, eight hour work week, but you're still struggling with sloth. Cause you're trying to distract yourself or even like, you know, you might not, it might not be work. It might be like worshiping at the altar, the mirror, you know, it's like, if I could just look a certain way, then I'll find my, you know, it's all the ifs and whens, you know?

So it's like, you know, just, and that's not just working out. It can be just like, again, the way I look, the way I present myself, I need to have all of these. You know, you know, check in all these boxes and I think social media has, I mean, this is like a whole nother conversation, but I think what used to be maybe 50 years ago, you know, you're walking down the, you know, you're walking down the hall in your school and you're like, man, my hair looks good today.

And like, man, I got a cute book bag or whatever. And whoever's in the hallway is like, you look so cute. Oh my gosh. I love it. Whatever, you know. Um, but now it's like this. Stage is so big and it's the world and it's, it's everyone in the world. And then on top of that. Um, I've been so intrigued with this whole, like, uh, Instagram, you know, people who aren't real people.

They're just AI generated people that, that have like, like that one chick with like the cute tennis skirt, you know, I can't remember what her name is, but it's like, she's flawless. She's beautiful. She has this great life and probably. 75 percent of people on Instagram don't know that she's a computer generated.

She's not real. And so these girls or guys or whatever, I mean, moms out there, those, you know, 40, 50 year old moms out there are trying to look really cute. And it's like, don't compete with what's not real. She is, she doesn't have pores. She doesn't have cellulite. Like these are, she is not human, you know, like, so I think it's just really good for everyone to take a step back and be like, okay, sloth, like.

I, you know, I'm, I can't be alone with my thoughts, but also like, what am I grasping for? What am I trying to achieve here that isn't really achievable? Do you know what I mean? There's just a lot of just like fake world stuff. That's difficult. People are truly comfortable in their own skin. Yeah. Wow. Truly at peace and rejoice in that.

Yeah, so good. We would all like to, right? And what a freedom. What a freedom when you even flirt with it. Amen. Like when you're even getting, I mean, when you're even like. Gosh, I feel comfortable with this person. What a win. What a victory. Just even if it's just one person Yeah, I think everyone listening can understand and know like you maybe only have a few people in your life That you can be your non manipulated self with And some people have zero and that's okay.

But I think, I think we were made for more. I think we were made for that kind of relationship. And the question is, what do we need to do to get that to, and that's what this book is about. Absolutely. This is a book about that. So good. No. And I think that the fakeness or the presentation of what we think will make us wanted, make us love, make us seen as you guys talk so clearly about in the book.

It leads to nowhere. It leads to the opposite. It leads to more emptiness. It leads to more misery. It leads to more grasping, like you're saying. And so I think it's such a refreshing message that the opposite, like being real, among other things, is like the antidote, like the solution, which I'm excited to get into.

But one of the things that I've noticed, I'd love to get your thoughts on this too, at the root of really all the problems in my life, and I've seen a lot in the young people that we're working with who come from broken families, is sin and brokenness. Sin and brokenness. Like fear comes at a point, like you guys said, you know, the comparison, like all that other stuff.

But I've seen at the root, root, root, sin, brokenness. the things I believe that after sin, the thing that holds us back the most from becoming the best version of ourselves is our untreated brokenness. I think that just leads to so many problems. And Dr. Bob Schutz and I were talking on his podcast recently, um, about this like really powerful analogy I heard on another podcast where this woman just had been through a lot of trauma in her life.

And she shared this Idea of like her in a swimming pool. She said like the brokenness was like her hair, you know Kind of carried behind her as she swam and if she could just outrun it if she could just keep moving It would never catch up with her. She would never feel it and man. How powerful is that?

I've felt that in my own life It's like we just try to outrun we try to add more noise. We try to add more distractions We try to add more comfort like you said, Dr. Schaffer Just outrun our brokenness because we're afraid that if we stop, then all that muck, all that dirt, all that brokenness will just envelop us and overwhelm us.

And so we just try to outrun it. That's beautiful. Afraid to see ourselves as we are. And we're afraid that someone else might see me as I am. Yeah. Yeah. And then being able to show the right people. You know, that is, is suffering and I've experienced that in my own life, especially with my mentors, you know, my spiritual director and, um, yeah, and friends and my spouse and all that stuff as well.

But man, how, how beautiful that can be. And, um, yeah, I think, you know, the scariest person to face is yourself. So with that, let's transition to the solution. What is the solution? What, what's needed to live that life of, of meaning and relationships filled with joy. Oh, it's so good. Oh, yeah. I, you know, I had a student ask me, uh, just recently, uh, it kind of came out of nowhere after class.

It's like, can prayer ever become selfish? And I, I still don't know exactly where this question was coming from, but I'm like, well, are you thinking in terms of like healing? Like is it too self centered? I mean, I think number one, like entering into the deep work of healing of going, because in prayer you get to know God better, but you get to know yourself better.

What's going on in my heart? What's brought me to this place? Like, That's not narcissistic. That's not selfish because the greatest act of charity you may ever, I mean, one of the greatest acts of charity you can do is enter into that healing work. Because as we all know, like if we don't, it's going to come out in other forms of dysfunction.

It's going to transfer to all of our other relationships. It's going to, it's going to inhibit our ability to really love and be present to others around us. So to me, the answer is relationship. It's with God. It's, it's going into those places that we're afraid to look. It's, it's being patient with ourselves.

We want this to be a quick fix, but it's often not. We didn't get there overnight. We're not gonna get out overnight, but then also simultaneously relationships with other people. We can have that love of God mediated to us. We can be seen and known and loved and understood and Affirm for who we are as we are as wonderful and great But also a work in project, uh, in progress and not perfect overnight.

And, uh, so to me that, that healing, it's not selfish. It's going to be one of the greatest acts of charity. Any one of us ever do. And our, our family tree, whether biological or spiritual, like. The people that cross our paths moving forward, that tree, that trajectory will be altered by whether or not we actually go deep with our own stuff and our own junk and actually enter that healing.

And if we don't, it'll be altered in a different way. So you can kind of, we're all like been thrown into this life. We've all had these like scars, good and bad, all these things. And we can just kind of keep passing that forward or we can like buck the trend. Like I know Joey, you know, you and I have talked about this and, uh, you know, we, we, we really want to raise our families in a way that's, I mean, we're grateful for what was given to us, but we also want to do some things we want to want to be some of what we didn't receive.

And I think of that as like, you're never divorced from your past, but. You can buck that. You can start a new line and it's not a brand new line, but like with Christ, he makes all things new and it's, it's, it's a new point. There's a before and after. And so the healing is not selfish. It will transform all those that cross your path moving forward.

Yeah. And I, I mean, as he's talking, he like, I just get excited. Cause I'm like, who doesn't want that? And who, I mean, and who doesn't have a. Bag over their shoulder of things that I mean, I don't care if you come from like a really great family And you get along with your family. You do not come out of that unscathed Like I have I come from a great family still wounded.

Um, I was bullied in seventh grade I had to switch schools So I was bullied from one school to another school in seventh grade and that wasn't necessarily my family My dad battled cancer at the same time. So like that was all hard, but it wasn't again. I come from a I come from a family of humans, which means I come from a tough family.

You know what I mean? Like, so I guess like, I just, I want everyone out there listening. Like this isn't just for all those people who have broken families or, Oh, these people, like it's kind of for everyone. And I think that's what we're seeing with the feedback from the book is. Oh, my gosh, I didn't even realize how much of of my past and the way I view myself and the way I'm, you know, struggling is affecting my current and my present.

I think that was just really big. I I've loved the feedback. And the reason a lot of people will be like. Wait, gift and grit, like why, why the title? And we, and we went back and forth and back and forth about what this should be called. And, and I said, I want something that we can explain quickly. And whenever I tell people what the book's about, I always say, here's the deal.

Like you are a gift, like you, your life is a gift. Like, I mean, everything you've been given, there's just the fact that you're here is such a gift. And the whole purpose of your life, the meaning of your life is to give your life away as a gift. But do you have the grit to do it? Because it is freaking gritty to give your life away.

And it is one of the grittiest things you'll ever do is to believe that you are a gift and to have the confidence to be able to say, I'm a gift. With all my mess, with all my trials, with all my mistakes, with all my past, with all my brokenness, I still know that I'm a gift. Because I think 75 percent of the world doesn't believe that, and that's where a lot of brokenness comes from, right?

I mean like, let's be honest, 98 percent of the world doesn't believe they're a gift, and they believe they have nothing to offer. And so it's like, okay, well, I'm just kind of like, you know, over here and I got nothing to give and I'm not, you know, and then what happens is and where I think a lot of people are getting this is the trend right now is very self help.

It's very, um, which again, like we're pro social media. We're pro self help. We're pro all those things. But I think what people are starting to feel is like, Man, I spend a lot of time worried about myself, worried about what I look like, worried about what I'm doing, worried about, you know, one of my favorite memes right now is, you know, our ancestors came across the country in a covered wagon and I, I write things on my planner, like drink water, like it's hilarious.

You know what I mean? Like, so I just, I think it's so fun to see the world try to like, they're trying, like the world is trying to find meaning. They're trying to be like everything they want to be. But the question is. For who? Because so much of the world is about, so many people are about catering to themselves and it's all about me It's all about me.

It's all about me and everybody's in my way and everybody's competition and everybody's all the seven It's like you are totally missing it like the whole point, you know to find someone, you know I love to pull out as an example religious Consecrated women. Okay. So even if there is people out there who are not Catholic, not Christian, not, don't believe in God.

If you've ever met a nun, a religious sister, they, they literally glow. They, they like, I mean, it's like a video game and they're the ones with like the magical powers that like, you know, they're happy. They're content. They're lovely. They, I mean, they're just, they're so happy and literally people look at them like they're this like foreign species.

Cause it's like, how can you be so happy? And I will tell you the secret sauce of being a religious woman. They know they're a gift and they know their whole life is about giving it away and they're gritty. They're really gritty. And so, and what do I mean by that? They pray, they love, they get, they'd live in service and they're magnets.

People just want to be with them because they're just so awesome. And again, if you've never met a religious woman, like try it out, go try to make a friend. They will, I promise you they will be your friend. Um, and so, but what I'm trying to make that point of is like the world is searching for this secret sauce.

And when people start to realize the secret sauce is all about having confidence that like your life matters. Like, you are a gift, like you are loved, and when you start to believe that, you live differently. And if you don't believe that, you live differently. And then when you start to realize that the whole purpose and meaning of your life and the freedom and the joy, your greatest joy is found in giving your life away, you live differently.

I mean, I think one of the most attractive things about a human being is selflessness. It's really hard to find, but who doesn't want a selfless spouse and who doesn't want a selfless mom and who doesn't want a selfless dad and who doesn't want a selfless friend? Even if they're just striving for it, because no one's perfect.

Like, what if we're just striving to not have my whole life be about me? And I think that that's what, but it's grit. It's not like, can I get up and work out in the morning? No. Can you be virtuous? Can you be loving? Can you be patient? Can you be kind? Can you be thoughtful? Um, can you be not all about you?

It's really, really hard. It's gritty. That's what the book is about. And that's why we wanted gift and grit in the title. Cause it was like, we kept going back to this as a couple, as parents, as ministers, as people who, you know, hang out with friends. It's like, this is what I want. For my family, it's what I want for myself, and I think it's what we're, a lot of the world's missing.

Beautiful. So good. Man, so much I want to comment on. You guys made me think of the C. S. Lewis quote when he said, Humility is not thinking, you know, less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. How freeing is that? You know, when, in times in my life where I've lived that well, which is like, Maybe like a week here.

There. It's so freeing. It's so freeing. It's so freeing to live a life. That's not just focused on you. Like you said, it's so much what I hear you both go ahead, please. That's when you're comfortable in your own skin. I mean, otherwise it's about self aggrandizement. Like, how can I make my, you know, find this social ladder?

And then it's wallowing in self pity and resentment. And it's like, so you're a hundred percent, right. I mean, Lewis Lewis nailed that. The humility is not just, I'm so bad. I'm so bad because if that's what you're thinking about, what are you thinking about me right now, it's like, take your eyes off yourself, enjoy the world, enjoy reality, enjoy the people around you and actually enter their world.

Beautiful. Yeah. I remember getting that advice from Jason over years ago, I think it was in high school at the time and just, you know, going through a lot of my own brokenness, especially after my family fell apart. And one of the things he told me was like, find someone in your life who is worse off than you and just like love on them.

And he wasn't encouraged me to like, ignore my brokenness and just like run from it, but truly like take that pain. And make something beautiful with it, which I think is, is so powerful. And so again, I'm not encouraging people to run away, working on it, working on it. God chooses the rustiest of instruments.

I questioned him on his, uh, at times, but we're here and we're doing it. Yeah. Yeah. But so much of what I hear you guys saying is about like identity and identity can be kind of elusive when we talk about it. It's not, it can be not very practical, but I hear you guys making it so practical in this conversation in this book.

And I love thinking back to, um, you guys probably know the story better than me. So correct me if I'm off here, but jump hold a second when he was in Poland, I forget if he was just a Bishop or. Pope at that point, but he, you know, the communists were trying to redefine the identity of the Polish people so that they can control them and get them to do what they wanted to.

And I remember that really powerful quote. He said something like, like, you are not who they say you are. Let me remind you. Who you are how beautiful and that and that I think there's this lesson that we receive our identity from others I think we can't define it ourselves. I think it's actually impossible and first and foremost We need to receive it from God But then also the people in our lives who love us who can speak into like no no, this is who you are You're not what you you're not as bad as you think you are And maybe you're not as good as you think you are in some ways like Like, we can see you as you are, and we love that, and that's good and beautiful, and um, and along those lines, I think, like you guys are saying, there is this tendency for us to hide the bad parts of our lives, but I've noticed in myself, even the good things, like even those gifts that we have, we might not step into them fully.

We might want some form of like secrecy or, and usually what I've seen in my own life, it's like based out of a fear that, you know, if we try our best, if we Do go all out at it. People are going to think it's not enough. People are going to, you know, put it down. I remember talking to one young woman who was just very like competent, talented.

And she said, basically, if I never give it my all, then I don't have to face the rejection and failure of knowing, well, I gave it my all and it didn't succeed. So if I always play it safe and just kind of go for like, The B level, then I won't ever have to face that. And I think that's so true for some of us.

So there's a lot there, but that's what I hear you guys saying. That's what I think this book, why it's so valuable and so needed in our time right now. But before we move on to relationships and things, I'd love to get your comment on any of that. The word that came to me when you were talking about that girl is like, um, just this, I feel like there's so much pressure on people.

I don't care how old you are. I don't care what role you're on in life. I just feel like there's a lot of pressure and that whole kind of aspect of Just not wanting to disappoint anyone, especially yourself. And you know, father Mike actually was talking about this. We were, I was up with his father, Mike Schmitz, the bulldogs up in Duluth.

And he was talking about the fact that what he was seeing post COVID with a lot of young adults was. Not really wanting to invest or get excited about things because it was probably just going to be canceled anyway, or it just probably wasn't going to happen anyway, like almost like the, yeah, just that whole idea of why am I going to invest myself or try, because it's probably not going to be enough for anyone.

And I'm, it's probably not even going to happen or just. Um, and so many people saw relationships that they had invested in. And then after COVID, it was like, they just dropped them or, you know, like, I don't, they don't call anymore. We don't date anymore. I don't know. Just, it was kind of just this like abrupt, you know, tear or drip or rift.

And it wasn't just COVID's fault. I think this is just human. You know, it, there's like a human desire. Um, and almost like a fear that exactly what this girl is saying of, you know, the greatest thing that I can do is not try because then I don't, I'm not disappointed and I can just kind of float. I think we see this with a lot, we, we personally have heard this from a lot of young adult men and men in general, um, where they're just like, it's too much.

I know I can't do it. I don't even, I just, I'm fine to be single my whole life because I am so intimidated by that and I don't even want to risk. No risk. No, thank you. We talk a lot about risk in the book. Just that idea of, um, what does it mean to put yourself out there? That's so hard. Even in a friendship, even in just trying to find friends.

Like it's, I think for a lot of people, it's scary. Um, and so I, I guess that one thing that I was just thinking about is something that I learned in counseling, um, just recently that I have been loving was from father Boniface Hicks. Um, if he, if, if you're, he's just a phenomenal, uh, Benedictine, um, but he's, he's great.

And I guess he, my counselor was telling me that he was making the point that a lot of times in the world, the, like the world's formula is you try something, you succeed and you arrive. And he said for the Christian, for the, you know, for the Catholic, sometimes the formula is actually try, fail, and surrender.

And the thing that happens is like, I think for me, I connected to this a lot and probably some of your listeners will too, because I try something and if I don't succeed and I don't arrive, then I think it was a total failure. So I live some of my life where I'm like waiting and working really hard and thinking that I'm going to like, but I never fully arrive.

You know, like, let's just say I want to be the world's best mom that's ever happened, you know, just the best mom ever. Well, when do you know that you've really succeeded as a mom? When do you know that you've really succeeded in your marriage? When do you know that you've arrived in your marriage? It's like, I mean, it's always But what I, what I took from that was, I think a lot of people feel that burn of, I am not succeeding, I'm not arriving, I'm, this is not going well.

So they stop trying and they're so afraid to fail that they just stop trying. And I have seen this in a lot of people's lives where it's like, it's not worth the risk. I'm just not gonna, I'm just not even going to try anymore. And that's where you get into that sloth and you get into that just self seeking and that bitterness and that, and that resentment, um, when really it's about trying and then, you know, you're probably going to fail and we're not perfect.

It's okay. Like you're, I mean, but, but when you do surrender it, That's where you usually start seeing this like quote unquote success because you're like whoa This is this is actually moving. This is actually going somewhere and I actually kind of suck at it, but I'm still going at I'm still trying and I'm still putting something into it, but it's not about arrival and it's not about success and it's not about achieving It's not about checking boxes or you know I just think the world is really caught up in with what defines How we define success.

And I think to the Christian, to the, you know, to the person who's trying not to live a selfish life, you got to redefine success. Friends. The part of what I hear about the surrender is it depends on what context we're talking about, but you surrender the outcome. Like I can't control the outcome all the time, but I can keep hacking at that tree.

I can keep doing what I'm supposed to do and just, just keep. Keep on going because you just, you don't know if it's the 21st hack or the 51st or that a tree's gonna fall. So don't let that hope die. I think I came across this quote super damning, but I'm like, Oh man, that's piercing because I think meaning and commitment are going to go hand in hand that you're not going to find me in your life until you're willing to throw yourself in and commit.

And this quote went like this, said a younger generation is going to die alone without the spouse. They never married without the kids. They never had. And without the God, they never knew. And again, I, it's not my quote. I I'm like, Oh my gosh. But it's a younger generation, probably because they've been burned.

They've been burned so many times. They're afraid to trust. Right. But a younger generation is going to die alone without the spouse that never married the kids that never had without the God they never knew. And I think modern man, I think is. More afraid of believing something false is true, like more afraid of being hoodwinked than they are missing out on a truth they miss out on.

They're afraid to take that risk and they'd rather play it safe and not get burned. But the thing is, not to decide is to decide because life will pass you by. We see this again and again and again and that's, we're not here to play defense. We're here to play offense and throw yourself into life. And there's going to be some bumps, right?

Yeah. You're not going to get it right all the time. Surrender the outcome. Yeah. But play the game, man. Yeah. Amen. So good. No, I love that. And I think another definition for grittiness could be just like your willingness to do hard things. And even suck at that. I've realized that I've realized that being such a good skill in life in general, but especially like in business, for example, of like, if you're willing to, like, work hard at learning something and go through the discomfort of being bad at it while you get good at it, you are going to be unstoppable, like truly.

Yes, well, and I, I could spend Joey, we could spend probably hours, I'll just fly out there and we can have like a five hour conversation. I call them glory stories. Cause like I could just, we could sit for hours. We've been doing ministry for over 20 years and it's like, I, when we talk about these kinds of things, we're not just talking about these abstract ideas.

I, in my head have pictures and flashes of people and I can't tell you how many, especially guys. Who have heard us or heard, you know, read the books or whatever and are just like, okay I'm gonna try that and all of a sudden they're like putting themselves out there and trying to like make female friends and try I'm Just laughing at the whole dating part of this where these guys were just paralyzed And then all of a sudden we're like well, okay XYZ these are like take these ten tips and run and I can't tell you how many guys have come back and been like Oh my gosh.

Like I, I would have never risked like this girl, like shutting me down or whatever, you know? And then it's like, yeah, by like the sixth date that I went on, I was like, they come to me and they're like, I'm getting better at this. I'm like, I know you are like, you just have to like keep going. And, but a lot of people don't ever want to try.

And these guys are married with kids and like, I mean they've, they've, what do you call it? They've arrived. If that's what we're really looking for. You know what I mean? But they, it was all about just like, I'm going to risk it. I'm going to put myself out there. I'm going to try to make guy friends and then I'm going to try to make female friends.

I'm going to try to make friends in general. I'm going to try to find people. It's not comfortable. It's not easy. I don't like throwing myself out there, but as I did it, I got better at it. And now I enjoy it. And now I, and now I have this like, Big group of friends that I never knew was possible. And I'm so glad I took that leap.

And I think that's what people need to hear is like, take the leap and in so many areas of your eye of your life, take that jump, you know, we know in other areas, I mean, I'll talk Europe, but like we, you know, what a musical instrument, foreign language. For me, it's been jujitsu. Like you have to, like you said, you have to be okay with sucking for a while.

That's why you get good. And like, it's not a linear line. Like it's going to take some time and then you hit these thresholds, but like, don't forget those things that we know are so true in every other walk of life. They're true in friendship, the true relationship between the spiritual life, that they translate readily.

If we just remember those, those basic principles that like stay the course and there's a new freedom around the corner. Hmm. So good. And I love the focus on just doing the small things, doing the small things, which I know we could talk a ton about. Um, but one of the things I just wanted to mention before we switched to dating, cause I know people want to hear your advice on that is that I think so often, um, underneath a lot of our fear, like you guys said so well, Is that, yeah we fear we're not enough in so many ways.

I remember in high school, uh, really struggling in my friendships because I felt like I had nothing to bring to the table. The way that I put into words was, I felt like a gift that wasn't worth giving or a gift that wasn't worth keeping. Like on the surface I could do like kind of the temporary, short, kind of flashy.

be like the wrapping paper, but I feared that once people open the gift, there's like no substance to it. And so that took a lot of time for me to wrestle with, but I think a lot of people find themselves there, even if they have this inkling, this belief that, yeah, I know I'm a gift intellectually, but I don't really feel that I don't really see evidence of it in my life.

And, uh, and that's something you do have to wrestle with. But I think in time, like you said, through relationships, especially your relationship with God and mentors, those. Being the two primary ones in my life, you're able to then not just believe in an intellectual level, but like in your bones at the level of your heart, like, no, you are a gift.

You have something so valuable to offer to the world, not just what you can do, but just who you are. Um, so I want to get to dating, but I know there's so much to say there too. Oh, no, I mean, I can't improve upon Joey, but I think part of it, though, part of the paradox is, and it's funny, I've had conversations with my high school boys about this, like, you see different groups, different contexts, where everybody's like trying to be like everybody else.

It's like, well, that's when you become a boring gift. Like the paradox is like you will actually only be a real gift and an exciting gift and an interesting gift when you just be yourself, right? Like be true to who you really are and stop playing this fake charade. Yeah, so good. Let's get to dating quickly.

So it's a mess out there, right? It's a hot mess. The dating scene right now. We all know this. Um, what are your quick tips on, you know, navigating that and finding that right person? There are no quick tips. That's that's a sad thing. That's the hard thing. Um, well, that was, that was one of the things that, um, when we first started doing ministry was when social media came out, we will be married.

We've been married 18 years. Um, and. You know, we, I, when we were dating, we were long distance and we didn't have zoom FaceTime texting. Um, I mean, we're not dinosaurs, but like we did, all we had was like the razor flip phone. You know what I mean? It's just like, wow. And I think that one of the things that I really want your listeners to hear is, and I say this too, like anytime I'm giving a talk, I usually start the talk with this, which is.

If you feel like this is the hardest, craziest, unknown territory, I'm not doing this right. I must be the only one that can't figure this out. This is so ridiculously hard. If you're feeling all those things, just know that you're not alone. And guess what? You are the first group in human history that has ever had to play with this particular set of cards.

Like this deck that we're all holding of cards that we're supposed to be playing with has never seen In the history of man, some of the cards that we're seeing, I mean, social media loans. I mean, when you start looking at even just like post pandemic world, just like having technology in a post pandemic during a pandemic kind of thing that never before online dating never been a thing before.

Um, I mean, we could go video games, like just having to introduce all of these things is AI, like we are sitting in a time in history where you should, I mean, there's no reason for you to feel like, you know what you're doing. So I think everyone needs to take a really deep breath in, like inhale, exhale, and just kind of have a little bit of, honestly, just a little bit of love for each other and a little bit of patience with each other and a little bit of understanding that.

No one exactly knows how to navigate this and no one knows how to parent this and no one knows how I mean It's kind of just a it's a really interesting time. And so I I really cut Uh, I cut people a ton of slack because I just feel like, you know, we, dating is so messy and I don't think that it's just one of those things where people can be like, just figure it out.

Like get over, like get over, what's so hard about it. I want to like slap people like, I don't know how many grandmas or hairdressers or people have said things to young, young adults like, Oh, why are you dating anyone? Oh, like, Oh, like you should cut your hair and just get prettier. You should like, what?

You're not a man enough to go ask people out. I'm like, shut up, like shut up. You know what I mean? Like, why are you putting more pressure on these people? Do they not know how difficult this is? Like, I mean, so I just, I really want people to hear in my voice how much love and just respect I have for your fight.

And for the fact that you are just trying to navigate this and don't feel like you suck at this because it's like, everyone does kind of, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's just very new to everyone. So, so there is no, I mean, there's no quick fix. I, I'm, I'm so sorry. To everyone out there who's navigating the dating scene, like you have been dealt a really tough deck of cards.

Okay. All that said, it's good advice. Yeah. There is a way to do this, right? Like there, I mean, so, so all that said, look at me, get all excited and be like, but we've got thoughts, you know what I mean? So, um, so we wrote this book. I mean, there is an entire chapter in this book on can men and women be friends.

Because that is probably one of the questions, uh, that we get a lot because even in secular dating, it's so like the norm to just pass somebody your number at a bar or, you know, it's very much like, um, kind of the dog and pony show of like, this is who I am. And you just have this, like 1 date where you're just like the greatest person has ever existed.

And you know what I mean? And you can feed people lines and you can lie and you can lie on social media. You can lie on a dating app. You can lie in person. And I think it's really hard to trust. Um, so the greatest thing you can do if anybody out there who's trying to navigate the dating scene, I mean, the greatest thing you can do is invest in friendships.

Because nine times out of 10, you are going to find someone who is worthy of dating in a group of friends that you already trust because you don't know, you don't have to just trust this one person and the dog and pony show. You can trust that group of friends to help you navigate that together, which is really beautiful.

Um, you also can see, you learn a lot more. When you're in a big group of friends than you ever would on one blind date, like how do they interact with other men? How do they interact with other women? How do they treat other men? How do they treat other women? Um, there's just so many things. And this is where I know we don't have a ton of time, but this is where it's really interesting to dive into the.

How hard it is to date without social, like in person cues. I mean, things that you pick up on that you could never pick up on over text or over online, you know, there's so many things like, does someone like you, or are you interested in someone? It's really hard to do when you're not actually physically with that person.

So it's so interesting. Just those, you know, just all those cues that I would say a hundred years ago they had, and we, we don't always have, you know, it's, it's just like, wow. So how do we navigate knowing? That these things aren't at the ready as much as they used to be. Um, but how do we navigate that?

Like we love online. We always say we love online dating, um, because it's about online meeting and in person dating. Like online meeting is our online dating is a great way to quickly find people in your, You know, even if they're far away, just like trying to find people that you actually would want to, you know, meet and date, you know what I mean?

It's really hard to date completely online and to know everything you need to know about their family, their friends, how they act around other people, how they act around you. Like you, there's so much that it's hard to pick up on, but we're huge. I mean, we're huge fans of gosh, meet, meet, meet. You've got to meet people.

And it's really hard. to meet people, even if you're, if you're from like a small town or you're, you work a lot or whatever. It's like, okay, you have a lot of things, but investing in good friends is going to be life changing for you. Um, and then also the healing piece. I mean, yeah, there's nothing better that you can do for your dating life than to listen to this podcast that all the things we just said and just say, you know, suffering that's not transformed is transmitted.

And so to really have your heart, you know, sister Miriam, you know, if you to really have your heart and you, no one's ever going to be perfect. You're never going to be perfectly healed. You're never going to be able to wrap a bow around your neck and be like, done, done. Like there's no such thing as that.

And I wish there was dang, do I ever, but that's kind of where it's at is it's like, man, I am growing, I am moving, I am pursuing, you know, it's just, there's so many good words. Um, and then you see who runs alongside you in that, um, that's where a lot of really great dating relationships come from. Um, but yeah, brokenness, when you, when you're just trying to find someone to mask your brokenness or to fill, fill you up or to fill an insecurity or to affirm you or to make, make them your God and make them your savior and make them your everything.

Like you will crush that person under the weight of it and you will always be disappointed. Like they cannot be that for you. So I mean, that's my greatest dating advice is I, I played that game for years. Um, and it wasn't until, you know, I really found the Lord and found my friends, my good girlfriends that I could trust and found good guy friends that I could trust, that I actually thought about the fact that I was using men, um, to really try to pacify in me and try to build my worth and try to find my worth and what they thought of me.

But that all changed when I started really putting my life together and, and again, knowing I'm a gift. Starting to give my life away as a gift and having grit and having virtue and having love for others and not just myself That all of a sudden my good guy friend group What one guy just started kept sticking out kept sticking out kept sticking out after years of friendship And it was like, shoot, dang, I think we should date.

Um, so, so I think that that's my best advice is, you know, it's all in the book and it's all an emotional virtue. Cause I mean, you gotta put it somewhere in writing because we talk too fast, but I just think that it's one of those things that, you know, it's not always about finding the perfect person.

It's about this whole idea of gift and grit. Maybe I echo everything she said. You gotta know who you are and know where you're running and find people that are running with you. And get to know lots of people. So in terms of like going on a date or getting to know people, yes, yes, yes. But as you enter into a relationship, Especially when you're getting a good idea of who this person is, their character, their faith, etc.

Where are they running? You know, what's life all about for them? Don't stay in that relationship if you could not see yourself marrying that person, right? You date to find out if it's that person. Like, you don't know that. Are they the kind of person that she would want to end up with? Uh, if you can't say yes to that, then you're just dating heartache.

It's not going to, it's not going to go anywhere. Good. And you're better off just not wasting your time or theirs or theirs. So I mean, date with a purpose. And also, like, you don't know who else is around, I mean, who else is around the corner or who, I mean, it just, it's, life is too short to kind of play games and to just date for merely like my own, for fun, my own excitement, my own emotional gratification, what have you.

I mean, like, like there's, that's, that's a part of it. But like, as you enter into a relationship, a committed relationship, are they the kind of person that you want to run with and are they the kind of person that you want to raise your kids? Um, that's really, it's easy to neglect that question. You have to think about that.

And when it's just the two of you, it's like, Oh, we get along. But okay. Imagine them forming your kids. Like, is that, is that what you want? We always kind of one of the nail in the coffin questions that we've had, cause we've counseled, you know, couples for years, especially like dating and engaged couples or, you know, people who are like, ah, something's off or whatever, you know, like they're, they're bringing us something, you know, about a relationship.

One of the things that we say to them is, okay, you're married. You guys get married. You're married 10 years. You have three little kids. You die. Are you okay with yours? Are you okay with this person raising your kids? Like, do you think that that would, they would be able to do what you guys want to do?

Because I think a lot of people walk into relationships like, Oh, well, I'll change them. It's fine. Or, oh, I'll just, I'll carry the relationship. It's fine. You know, like, they're good enough. I will just fill in all those gaps. Like, it's fine. Like, I will, I will just take care of all of that. And I think when you kind of ask that question of like, I'm really trusting this person not, not only with my life, but with the life of my children.

Is this the kind of person that we, that I want to have raised my kids even if I wasn't there? Um, I think that's kind of one of those, like, whaa kay, I'm gonna go take that and think about that and pray about that for a minute, cause you see it in their eyes, you know, and, and last thing, cause I know we got, I know we're up against the time, but like, okay.

Everybody out there problems that you have in dating and engagement do not go away when you get married. They are magnified And so it's really good if you're in a relationship right now, and you're like man, like I just don't know and nobody's perfect So everybody take that, you know and set that aside Everybody has wounds.

Everyone has baggage. Everyone has you know, things that they're not good at no one is completely selfless You know, you're gonna have your moments But it's a really, really, really dangerous thing to say things like, I'll just change them. It's fine. I can work with this. It's not going to be a problem later.

Let's not bring it up. Let's not rock the boat. Let's not, you know, I have 500 invitations and address in my closet, so we're just going to move forward with this because in our world, it's a lot easier, a lot easier to get divorced than it is to call off a wedding. And there's so much pressure on, on our people that are dating to be like, Oh my gosh, I got this right.

And there's no one else is ever going to date me. I can't break up with them. I can't start over. And they, they, they, a lot of people we've counseled, they saw warning signs. They knew that they should have said something. They, they wanted to bring it up, but they didn't. And it just. Followed them into their marriage and it doesn't get, it does not go away.

And so that's just our word of love out there for everybody who's in a relationship, like no relationships. Perfect. But do not be afraid to bring up tough stuff and don't be afraid to bring up your past or your baggage or your wounds, you know, to someone that you're engaged to. Or, you know, if you're seriously dating, I think a lot of people are like, I just don't want them to know.

And it's like, well, they're going to find out eventually, you know? And so to really be able to have. If you trust them, if you're in a safe spot, if you've been dating, you know, I'm not, I'm not rushing anyone into those conversations, but promise me you have them before you get married. You know what I mean?

Like I think that's so important and the world doesn't talk about that. The world just says, put on a great face, make it look good. You know what I mean? And that's. It's just not, that's not the formula for, for success in your marriage. Yeah. As long as you have a good Instagram, you go on nice vacations and that you have a successful marriage and family and whatever, but no, it's nothing to be afraid from the truth.

I, uh, the, uh, shoe company Zappos, one of the things that they do when they hire people is they actually incentivize them to quit. They, they literally put money on the table and say like, you can walk away with thousands of dollars if you quit. Because they're looking for the people who are really dedicated.

I wonder if we should start monetizing, incentivizing, like breaking off like marriages so that, yeah, this whole divorce option doesn't seem so attractive. Because I think so often, yeah, we lose. The game in the draft, and we need to turn that around. And so I know it's probably discouraging for some people listening because it's so hard to find like a decent person, let alone like a good heroic person.

Um, but they are out there and we meet them all the time, right? And they're just not connecting and we need to connect them. So I know we're all working on that, but I could spend forever with you to your, your gems. I just love speaking with you. If people want to pick up the book, I say like, I know how discouraging what we are saying sounds because I think that, um, I think a lot of people have lost hope, and I think what I just want them to hear both of us say, and you say, is Please do not despair.

Please do not give up hope. Please do not settle. Um, I mean, like we want you to be happy. We want you to be fully alive. We want you all those things. Um, but I, I don't want, I don't want people to think that we're saying, Oh, it's so easy, you know, like, Oh, it's so, it's so easy. Just do it. No, like everything we are saying is so hard, but it's worth it.

And I think that that's, I think that's what I really want people to hear is, you know, we're not saying that, no, this is just magically going to happen. What's wrong with you. That's the farthest thing from the truth. It's actually, this is one of the hardest things you'll ever do, but it's actually one of the things that's going to bring you the most happiness and freedom.

Um, and it's, yeah, it's hard, but like we're cheering you on and to find friends that will walk this with you is it's just priceless. And I'd say, what's the alternative. Like, do you really want the alternative or do you want to just give us fair shake and go after it and see what happens? Amen. Yeah. And the book, yeah, gift and grit.

We have a website, the Swaffords. com, um, and you can find the book and some other, you know, other books that we've written there. And we love signing books for people and like putting their name on it, writing them a note. Um, I always get like in the note sections, like my name is Brittany. Give me all the encouragement, you know, it's like Brittany, you know, so I don't know whoever it, I love it when you guys tell us who you are and so we can sign your name and be like, You've got this like you can do this and so we love that and so that's where you can find us and We're just praying for everyone and we're so proud of everyone.

Please hear us say that we're so proud of you Just for all all that you're doing just being a human is hard And so know how proud of you are where they're cheering and we're definitely cheering for you beautiful. So good Thank you both for coming on this show since Yeah, I just want to give you like 30 final seconds to give us the final word, final encouragement advice.

And if you could, I know in the book you have a whole chapter on like healing. And uh, so many people listening right now are just struggling with healing. They don't know where to begin. I know you guys talk about that more deeply in the book, but if you were on an elevator with someone for 30 seconds, what's like one thing you would tell them to close out the show?

Gosh, I don't know if it's elevator or not, but you mentioned sin and woundedness, and I think that's, that's exactly right. So our, our sin brings us to our own chains and enslaves us, but then on that it's compounded with shame. It's like I can't go back. I, I, you know, and so just that's a lie from the devil.

Um, be patient with yourself, be patient with your life. Um, just start taking small steps. And you'll just, amazing things will happen over time, but be patient. Be patient with yourself, your own advice, your own words. It's okay. We're all, we're all seasick and we're all on the same journey. So God bless you all.

And, uh, as Sarah said, super proud of you all for fighting the fight. That's what it's about. It's about fighting the fight. Surrender the outcome, but fight the fight.

such good content, love talking with the swafford. And if you want more from them, if you wanna get their book for example, uh, you can just click on the link in the show notes. And I think if I understood it right, if you order through the link in the show notes, uh, you'll get a personalized note from them with the book.

I don't know if that applies if you order from Amazon, for example, but just go ahead and click the link in the show notes if you want their book. And like I mentioned at the top of the show, if you want to help us grow this podcast to build better resources and help more young people from divorced and broken families to break the cycle, my team and I would love to partner with you.

We have a donor who has offered generously a 50, 000 matching gift. And so we're working to, to match that gift. And so if you feel called, just click on the links and the show notes, you could either schedule a time with me to hear more about our plans for the future and what you'd be investing in, or if you don't have time for that, but you still have benefited from the show and you want to help us.

Go out even further. Uh, feel free to just donate through the links in the show notes. I'm honored to have you partner with us, and I'd love to share more with you in the future. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's from a broken family, maybe they're really struggling because of their parents divorce, share this podcast with them.

I promise you, they will be super grateful. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction, divorce, and your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis, who said. You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#113: A New Therapy to Heal Trauma | Dr. Christopher Genn, DPT

Trauma, such as your parents’ divorce or extreme family dysfunction, doesn’t only affect your emotions. It affects your body too. It quite literally has physical effects. 

In this episode, Dr. Christopher Genn, a physical therapist and expert in applied kinesiology, explains how our bodies respond to trauma and how we can heal. Plus, we discuss:

• A new therapy to treat pain, trauma, and even rewire bad habits

• The story of a girl enduring her parents’ divorce who became physically debilitated 

• How we often lie to ourselves about our families, parents, and past - and why that’s a barrier to healing

Schedule a Consult with Dr. Genn

Get the Course: Broken to Whole

Visit Dr. Genn’s Website

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• The Emotion Code: How to Release Your Trapped Emotions for Abundant Health, Love, and Happiness | Dr. Bradley Nelson

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When you endure a trauma such as your parent's divorce or extreme family dysfunction, it doesn't just affect your emotions, it affects your body, too. It literally has physical effects, and in this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Chris Fergen, a physical therapist and expert in applied kinesiology, where He's able to explain how our bodies respond to trauma and what we can do to heal.

We also talk about things like a new therapy to treat pain, trauma, and even to rewire bad habits. He also tells a story about a girl who went through her parents divorce and how it literally had physical effects on her. We talk about the balance and healing between accepting where you are today, but at the same time striving for a better life and a healthier future.

You and finally we hit on how we often lie to ourselves about our families about our past and even about our parents And how that's super unhelpful how it's such a barrier to healing. So a lot of great stuff ahead. Stay with us Welcome to the restored podcast helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce Separation or broken family so you can break the cycle.

I'm your host Joey Pontarelli, this is episode 113. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback. One person left this review. They said, The community that's needed. I feel so grateful for this podcast. After my parents divorce, I was left with a lot of unanswered questions and feelings, leaving me confused and isolated.

My friends and family did their best to be present for me, and counseling helped. But this community of others who have walked the same road and chosen a different path, one of love, peace, and forgiveness, continues to encourage me years later, wonderful, practical hope giving. Again, we're so happy that it's been so helpful for you.

We do it for you. Again, my guest today is Dr. Christopher Gann. As a child, he experienced these extreme headaches and vomiting, which actually led to five brain surgeries, if you can believe that. And that sparked a passion in him to really better understand the human body pain and healing. And he graduated from Mercy College with his bachelor's in health science and a certified strength and conditioning specialist.

certification. He then completed various clinical rotations working in orthopedic, acute care, and pediatric, and doctor again became certified in something called functional movement systems, and he worked alongside this physical therapist who was trained by the American Academy of Manipulative Therapy, and that led him to learn these advanced manual therapy skills, including spinal and joint manipulation.

techniques. Eventually, he launched his own practice. It's called Be Not Afraid Physical Therapy. He launched it to better serve his clients, where he became fully certified in new therapy called QNRT and applied kinesiology, which you're going to hear a lot about in this episode. And in this episode, we do talk about God and faith.

And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows that We're not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, I just challenge you to listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode.

And with that, here's my conversation with Dr. Christopher Genn.

Dr. Genn, so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. so much for having me. I'm very excited. I'm super impressed with you. I mean, we've known each other for a while and just looking through all the work you've done. I'm again, very impressed and how you've really taken your own pain and transformed it into something to help other people.

And I was thinking about this before the show, a lot of times people who get in your line of work, they often do it for practical reasons because maybe they were really good. at it, or they have a passion for it, or it's just a way to pay the bills. But, and while some of that might be true for you, there's a much deeper reason.

You didn't learn about suffering. You didn't learn about pain and healing in a book. You've really lived it. And so I'd love to know your story. Sure. I mean, my story really started at a very young age, uh, before my memory started. And. In my first year of life, even, so, uh, I've been told that every month or so I'd have at least three or four days worth where I'd have 105 plus degree fevers and sweats and everything that goes along with fevers and, uh, the doctors and everybody that couldn't explain it and it was untreated and went as such for at least a year, a little bit more than a year, I think, and, uh, that subsided and Uh, then after that, uh, around five, uh, I started having real severe headaches and they were so bad.

I, they were accompanied by vomiting, profuse vomiting for, uh, days sometimes. And, uh, they'd come and go and they gradually got worse and we tried to have them evaluated and, um, my mom's a nurse and so she kept kind of pursuing it. The doctors at that time said, you know, they're just childhood migraines.

Take some, take some Tylenol and, you know, go rest. So, as it continued, uh, for months and months, and, uh, I'd be vomiting in the office, in the waiting room in the office and everywhere, uh, with a pounding headache. And they finally put me in for an MRI. And when they did that, they found a huge cyst the size of a plum in my five year old brain.

And, uh, that was causing many of those, those symptoms. So Uh, I was put into emergency surgery, but, uh, not quite emergency because they had to calm down the inflammation because it was so high. So, uh, after a couple of days, they put me into surgery and I ended up having five surgeries before the nervous surgeon was able to regulate the pressure within my head.

And, uh, I was blessed. Um, I was spared from having any seizure disorder at that time, which the neurosurgeon was very surprised. But through that suffering, uh, I really learned the, the gift. I was taught the gift actually by my parents. Um, and I learned it very much hand up firsthand to offer up the suffering, to offer it up for other people, to offer it up for people I loved and to really give it over to God at that time.

Cause I was not in control of it. I couldn't do anything about it myself. You know, there's nothing I could do to control the pain and the suffering. So, uh, I learned that there was a way out in a way, a way to make the pain meaningful to me. And that was through offering it up. And, uh, when I learned that, it really did help.

Um, and I have many, many blessings, many stories. Where I was very much accompanied, um, by Mary. At that time I, I learned that Mary was, you know, the mother of God in, in our Catholic faith. And as I learned that, uh, she was somebody I turned to. And she, she was always there for me. Could always turn as a as somebody who comforted me as a young child.

Um, and so that was, that was really the, the, the big suffering and it continued over the years, even after the surgeries. Every time I'd play sports, do something that I absolutely loved, I would be up the majority of that night with splitting headaches and vomiting. Even after the surgeries, but, uh, but I never stopped doing what I loved, but I would have to suffer afterwards.

And, uh, you know, they eventually did subside. Probably, I don't remember exactly the time frame, but by the time I was probably nine or ten, they more or less subsided. Anyway, jumpstart forward a bunch of years, you know, um, at the end of grad school. And, uh, we had our, I was married, end of grad school, we had our first child, Gianna.

And, uh, I started experiencing, I was training for a marathon, I was in great shape, etc. And, I started getting those same headaches. I hadn't had that intense of a headache since I remember when I was like, you know, a young child and I said, man, anyway, I kept pushing it off. They're just allergies, you know, it was allergy season.

I had allergies before and, uh, I went to the doc and he said, well, you could treat it as allergies if you want to see how it goes. Anyway, it only got worse. It didn't help at all. So I'm out at my in laws and they see a chiropractor. So I. I was never raised with like natural medicine, but my, my wife, she was very much raised that way.

So I was out and my in laws visiting for Easter, I believe it was, and I was getting my headaches. I couldn't do anything about it. Nothing touched them. And I was vomiting all night that night. I said, and my in laws were like, you got to go see. Uh, you know, Dr. Kathy, who they had seen and they said she'll be able to help at least figure out what's going on.

I was like, okay, you know, I'll take anything. So she's a chiropractor who does muscle testing. And that was my first introduction. So, uh, she was, she took me in as a friend of theirs. So she didn't even do like a full evaluation. She just took me in and said, let me just see what's going on. And she did her evaluation and she knew nothing about, about my history.

And she said, uh, is there a reason that your cerebral spinal fluid, uh, which by the way, my cyst when I was a kid was filled with cerebral spinal fluid. That's the type of cyst it was. And she said, your levels are off the charts. There's something wrong, and I was like, How did you just figure that out?

He's like, you know nothing about me. Yeah, wow. And she just did muscle testing, and I was like, Yeah, there's a reason. You know, I have a, I have a shunt, and it drains the cyst. You need to get that checked out. So I was like, all right, I need to, you know, I went back to my neurosurgeon, and, uh, Sure enough, um, the tubing had corroded, and it was no longer functioning.

So I had a flare up, so. At that point, I had never experienced that. I was at the end of grad school, as I said, physical therapy. I was led to physical therapy, and I loved what I was doing. And then this stopped, kind of stopped me in my tracks and said, Whatever she just did, I have no idea what she just did.

Whatever she just did was meaningful because, like, that gets to more than just, Oh, these are your symptoms, let's cover it up. It was like, no, she could tell what was the most important thing. By just muscle testing and evaluating my entire system as a whole and so that was a start and I said at that point I was I graduated and then I said, you know, I'm gonna hand this over to God I'm I'm gonna say, you know lead me to learn something like that that I can really help people and Do it in your time and I kept looking for opportunities to learn Any type of muscle testing.

And, uh, And all the doors kept closing for me. And I was like, alright, I'll put it on the back burner for now. And I kept looking into it again. And, nope, not this time. So Looking back, I have many ideas as to why I didn't learn it quite right away. I had, I had some many, many things to learn about prior to that, but, but eventually a couple of years ago, uh, it was the right time.

And I launched pretty much as my, as my wife told everybody, pretty much back into like graduate school almost. And I launched full steam ahead into a hundred hour course in applied kinesiology. And. That's really what allowed me to see what she did and even further than that allowed me to realize the impact of what I went through back then and how it's actually interconnected with what my family was going through at the time and the pain and suffering that was there and how that had impacted my suffering.

Uh, on a physical level and, and ways that, for instance, when I was at one of the seminars, again, these guys don't know anything about us or whatever, you know, and we're testing each other. And, uh, you know, he isolates a spot here. Um, on my head where the cyst, where the, where the cyst happened to be, um, he didn't know that, but he said, you know, um, and he narrowed in some, some, uh, some emotions, some things that, you know, were, were affecting that region.

And he said, you need to address what's going on there. And I was like, you know, in my head, like all these thoughts, I'm like, what, whoa, like, are you kidding me? Like, and I told him, I was like. I have a, I have a VP shunt in my head that drains a cyst that I've been told is pretty much where you're pointing and he's like, that's not surprising and he had been doing this kind of work for years and I was like, that's not surprising.

I was like, yeah, it is. Are you kidding? I mean, that brings a whole new light to like everything I've ever experienced, like And he's, and, uh, and that was the opening of my door personally, uh, to actually experience what I had been starting to learn and, uh, have now been graced to continue to experience personally the healing, uh, of that type of work because the physical stress that I was under was a, uh, just a presentation.

Of what I was kind of experiencing around me at the time and my body trapped in and, uh, and has affected me in many, many ways since then, uh, that I've come to learn through some of the work that I've experienced. Incredible. Thank you for sharing so vulnerably and I, man, I want to go deeper into a couple of things.

Uh, one point I just wanted to make is it's beautiful how your pain didn't crush you, but you allowed it to transform you. Um, sadly, you know, you could look around the world today and see people where their pain crushes them. It truly does hold them down. Um, but it's beautiful how you didn't let that happen.

And you, by God's grace, as you'd say, we're able to transform that. And then now even use that as a way to help other people because you understand pain on a deep level. You know, again, some people understand it kind of intellectually, but they've never suffered much. You've suffered a lot, which I think would totally change if, you know, a patient comes You're helping them through some problem they're facing, whether it's physical or emotional.

You get that on a deep level, so that's really beautiful. I also admire the balance you had. And I know when you were younger, this is maybe more of your parents kind of instilling it in you, but how you had somewhat of an acceptance of where you were. It's like, okay, I'm going through all this pain, like I'm throwing up.

I'm, you know, have these horrible headaches, like all this stuff that you were dealing with. Um, but at the same time you were striving to find a solution. And I think that that that's a tricky balance because I think on one end we can just give into resignation thinking, well, my life is just always going to be this way.

All I can do, and I know we're going to get into this, but all I could do is really manage it. Um, or, you know, kind of even just having this ultra focus on finding some sort of utopia. A solution that will make, you know, life perfect, neither of those are healthy, obviously. And so it's cool to see kind of how you had the balance between the two.

But what I want to focus on and feel free to comment on any of that is just the pain in your family. Um, that, uh, stood out to me, especially given our audience who comes from broken families. So I'm just curious, like, what was that that impacted you not only emotionally, but also physically whatever was going on in your family?

First of all, I want to touch on the acceptance. You know, because, uh, I mean, anybody knows that if you stub your toe, you know, and if you're in the middle of something really important, you can put that aside and focus on what's really important in front of you. If you're alone and you're doing something, you stub your toe.

That's like the end of the world. You're like, oh my gosh, that hurts so bad. But if you're like, you know, in an interview for instance, and you stub your toe on something, you can kind of, you know, push down your reaction a little bit and accept the fact that, you know what, it hurts, but I'm okay. And, uh, you know, that's, that's a hard place to be except pain and except suffering and realize that that's actually not the end of the story.

It's actually the launching pad, right? Pain and suffering in our life allows us to grow. Anybody who exercises, right? When you exercise, what do you have to do? You have to stress the muscle. You have to strain the body. You have to push. Past the limit that you think you can handle, but what do you get out of that?

You get the awareness that you can actually do more than you thought you could an hour ago. You get the, you get the increased growth of muscle. You get the increased ability of your body to do more, to go further, and to experience greater heights of enjoyment. But if you just think, I'm stuck here and I can't endure any more suffering.

Then there's no more growth. And so yes, your point of accepting that pain and suffering, whatever it is, whether or not it's a physical pain of suffering or whether or not it's purely emotional and you're just having total anxiety or deep depression. Um, you know, accepting the fact of where you are is a huge first step.

Uh, and, and that always. And I had a quick scenario. I had a quick, I had a gentleman in, and uh, first time working with him. And he, he, we evaluate what's going on, etc, etc. And I, and I ask him, and I go, You know what was going on between three and five years old? And he goes, I don't have much memory at all of my childhood, but uh, And then he thinks, no.

He comes out, he's like, Oh, but my, you know, my dad was an alcoholic and, and he died when I was six, but you know, he was a good father. And through my testing, I'm like, yeah, but your system doesn't believe he was a good father. So I go, so, so could you just say that again for me? And he goes, my dad was a good father and I muscle test him, which is testing whether or not that statement is congruent with his entire being because our system responds to statements like that.

And so consciously, he's told himself, because it's important for us to have a good father, he told himself that my dad was a good father. He doesn't have many memories of it, but he was an alcoholic and there was tension there. So I said, say that again, and his arm goes weak, he goes, wait a second, does that mean That my subconscious, my entire being doesn't actually agree with that statement.

I said, that's exactly what that means. And that was the root of it. Um, that he didn't accept the fact that, oh, my father actually was not a good father. And if we don't accept what reality is, we can't then address it. We can't allow healing if we don't actually look at it and see what, for what it is. So I didn't know what was going on in my family back then.

I had no idea. I had no conscious awareness at all, really. Uh, looking back, I mean I thought I had a great family life. I thought it was peachy, um, sort of speak. But, uh, but after having worked with my parents and, and, and the work that I do as well, and work, having work done on myself, I realized so many things are linked back to that time frame and linked back to difficulties within my parents marriage, infidelities linked in my parents marriage.

Uh, and generational sins and difficulties and patterns of impurities and infidelities within marriages in my parents, my father's line, and how that actually has impacted my genetics, you know, things that get passed down genetically, right? It's they actually can be patterns of sin or patterns of bad decisions, and they can get passed on and they get trapped in our tissues.

And so, you know, looking back, you know, there, there were those patterns in my, in my parents, um, relationship at the time. And I was kind of, I was kind of like the, uh, the scapegoat, so to speak. Or I had to be the person to, to regulate. And when stuff was going on and I couldn't regulate I had severe headaches, severe symptoms, or later on I had, you know, I had the high fevers early on in my first year of life, you know, these things were probably related or actually definitely were related to some of the things that were going on in my parents, uh, marriage in their, in their experience.

And so, you know, learning that now it links a whole lot together for me. Um, and it allows me to, to, to actually address things that I wasn't fully even conscious of because again, I didn't have memories at one years old. I don't even have members at three, four years old when I started the other symptoms.

So you know, families that are broken, there's many more repercussions. And so often we don't allow ourselves. To accept them or allow ourselves to say, you know what, my family situation is not good. And as a five year old, I can't really do anything about that. And it's not my role. You know, I took on, and I very much even consciously took on, from a young age, the responsibility to kind of manage the family.

to balance the family. And I was always extremely aware of, um, my mom's mood, or my mom's situation, or I always had to kind of watch out there, or, um, even amongst my siblings, I would try to kind of be the peacemaker. Um, or I was never really a part of the discord. I felt like it was my role to accept it, and then kind of My body couldn't take it anymore and it would erupt.

So that's a little bit about, you know, makes so much sense. No, it's so fascinating. And gosh, so many lessons I'm learning from you. A couple of things I wanted to mention one, just this fact that we lie to ourselves, like that patient that you had fascinating, right? And I'm just thinking in my own life, man, how often have I just lied to myself or what's coming out of my mouth just isn't, doesn't align with reality.

It doesn't reflect reality. It's just not actually true. That's one thing. Um, the other thing too, is just. Please. Yeah. And the other thing I was just going to mention is this whole field of epigenetics, just to make sure everyone, because I think sometimes what people, when they hear some of the things we're talking about, they may think that, well, that's kind of like phony.

It's not real science. It's like, no, no, this is real science. Like this whole field of epigenetics, from my understanding of it, I'm not, you know, like you clinical, medical, medical, Signs trained, but my understanding of it is it's looking at the ways our genes express themselves Based on our environment and an example that was kind of given to me is you might in your genetics You might have a predisposition to be an alcoholic but if your environment never kind of triggers that in you you could go through your life and not struggle with alcoholism or you can Be in a really difficult situation and then start becoming an alcoholic in order to cope with the pain in your life Exactly so Right, so in this field of epigenetics, from what I understand, it's like, it's, we're still discovering so much right now, and so, feel free to speak to any of that, but yeah, lying to ourselves, it's super real, I didn't realize it until you just said it.

Think about a lie detection test, right? Everybody has a basic understanding, generally, of a lie detection test, you know, you're hooked up and, and you, They look on a graph and see whether or not there's a physiological change when somebody's telling the truth or when somebody's telling a lie. And they start with something basic, which is actually how I start explaining it with people too.

My name is Chris, and that's a truth. And my subconscious, my entire being, should respond to that as a truth. And so, if I said, my name is Josh, my name's clearly not Josh, and so that would be a lie for me. And not only is it a lie, it actually has a physiological effect on me, so it changes my heart rate and you can see that it changes my ability of my nervous system to function.

And so that's how the muscle test then works. It inhibits the nervous system to respond normally, and which is why lying is not good for us. But physiologically, it brings us down. And, you know, you said you stated that fact of the epigenetics so perfectly because Some, some people argue whether or not, you know, these things are real and things, but it's the expression of, you, you may have a predisposition to, uh, cancer or predisposition to different types of cancer or predisposition to any number of things, um, including then the emotional side of things, depression that runs in families, people know things like this runs in family, you have a predisposition to it, but if you live a healthy lifestyle, have a of well functioning, stable environment, and, uh, you're not triggered, you may never fall into that, but you are more readily triggered, um, by certain things, and then It's when those thing gets triggered a time and time and time again that then it creates real issues and you see the body and the person breaking down because it can't because the same triggers are there people are rejected and then so and so a boyfriend rejects them later in life and then you know and then you end up having somebody who just gets rejected a time and time again the boyfriend keeps cheating on them you have a different boyfriend he cheats on you have a different boyfriend he cheats you Wow, and then you get married and then that guy leaves and cheats on you again and people are like, why is this always happening to me?

And part of it is, is actually the suffering that they almost bring it on because they've never addressed the fact that they're okay having a faithful partner because their system is patterned to respond to, I actually want rejection. And that's like, when people come to the realization that their entire being, except for their conscious brain, is asking for rejection, it's like, so backwards.

But our nervous system can get so screwed up, because it's been hurt so badly, that it can be patterned to want the opposite of what our conscious brain thinks. We want We want to get rid of that stuff, the total rejection, and we want somebody who's going to be faithful. And the work that I do with the QNRT, the Quantum Neurological Reset Therapy, is doing exactly that.

It's saying, listen, consciously, you are seeking after a faithful relationship. But subconsciously, your system is saying, nope, I'm not letting go of that rejection. I'm not accepting that rejection that I had when my father left me or left our family. I'm not accepting that. I'm not letting go of it. I'm not forgiving it.

And I no longer, and I'm not even saying I'm okay moving on or moving forward. And when your subconscious is trapped there, you want to be ready to say, no, consciously I do want to let go of that. I do want to forgive that. I'm, I'm actually at that point where I'm ready to do that and as long as we have that conscious acceptance of that, then we can do the work that I do and we can say, okay, let's do the training of the brain in a couple minutes and let's help to repattern that part of the system that says, okay, I'm going to let go of that.

I'm going to forgive him and I'm going to be okay with having a faithful partner. Okay. And it's so powerful, the nervous system. If somebody is not consciously ready to forgive that person, and I do the reset, helping them to actually be okay with forgiving them, but they're not actually willing to forgive, they could be sick for days or weeks because it creates such a non congruency.

Their will, their desire is not there. Which is why I always have to say, as soon as we come up with what's bothering the body, are you willing to say, I forgive my father for leaving us? Are you willing? If they're not, we wait. And you have to come to the time where, and we can do other things to assist.

But if they're not ready, the system is so powerful and has so much So much there that it'll create real discord and they can be, they can be, you can get suffer tremendously after that. So it's testament to the power of our nervous system. Wow. So fascinating. What I hear you talking about, we've talked about a little bit on the show is like repetition, compulsion, how we end up repeating behavior that harmed us.

Um, in our own lives, you know, and you gave the example of infidelity, rejection. Another example, kind of going back to alcoholism is if you grew up with an alcoholic father, you know, you swear, I will never be like that and don't want that in my life. And then years later in your life, you end up. becoming alcoholic and like we talked about, there's obviously the biological component, the predisposition, but there's so much more going on there.

And, uh, so it's, it's really, really fascinating. And one of the interesting statistics that have all has always blown my mind is how people who come from broken, especially divorced families, we're less likely to get married. We're more likely to get divorced. Um, I've even seen some data, I don't have a lot on this, but I've seen some data that says if you were.

You know, in a family where mom or dad cheated on the other, you're more likely to have an affair yourself, um, which obviously is so scary for people who want, you know, a beautiful, faithful marriage. And so it's um, it's just fascinating to see that these things that we go through in our lives are programmed into us, even perhaps down to our DNA.

And unless we kind of course correct, unless we reprogram, which I believe is totally possible, uh, we'll end up going down those similar paths that we truly fear that we're doomed to go down. Even though we don't want that. So I hear you talking about all these things that are super relevant to, to, um, to people like us, right?

And that's the ACE study. It's a very, you know, well known, you can look it up, study on adverse childhood events and what that actually does to our health. Yes, our patterns like you just mentioned, but also just our health. People who experience one or more than one, obviously as the number increases with the number of adverse childhood experiences, the rate at which their health declines is more intense the more you experience adverse events.

Because There are more trauma that our body cannot normalize from. And so that study shows, yeah, that they'll have more Again, remember exactly the, the diseases or illnesses that it states, but, um, they'll have more, uh, you know, sleep disturbances and some common one and asthma and, uh, chronic illnesses and headaches and, you know, migraines and, and various different things.

Um, the, the percentage will be higher in the people who have broken families or any type of adverse childhood experience. Um, so yeah, it increases our rate of patterning. Um, To speak to that too for, for my personal, right? Yeah. I'm getting married and all I want is a, is a, I want to be a faithful, you know, uh, husband and, and I don't want to, uh, you know, do any harm to, to my wife or to my, to my kids or repeat any patterns of, and, uh.

And of course, I didn't even know at that point when I'm getting married really of, of some of the, um, some of the infidelities and different things in my, my family history. But, uh, you know, I had a real struggle personally, uh, to be open and honest with everybody, you know, with pornography for years. And, uh, and it was a real hard struggle and battle.

Um, and it really affected all parts of my life. And. When I get, you know, when I'm getting married, I'm like, you know, I'm, I had been, you know, clean for a while. And I'm like, I'm never doing this again. I'm so done. And I'm over that. Right. And I'm thinking, you know, it's all smooth sailing and, you know, and, uh, sure enough, it creeps back into my marriage and, uh, it creates real, you know, I can see the immediate effects on particularly my wife.

Um, and, uh, You know, the patterns and actually a perfect example of how our body traps things. So this was actually just last night, uh, my wife, we're sitting at the dinner table. She's, uh, doing totally fine. Uh, and then all of a sudden she's like, I have this severe pain in my neck and it's like killing me.

And it stayed there for, uh, you know, a couple of hours and she's like, I can't do anything right now. So I evaluated her quickly. I said, you know what, uh, you need to do a, there's a technique Callahan, a psychologist, uh, came up with a technique of helping using tapping techniques to activate different parts of the system to clear traumatic events and clear trauma from the body.

And it's a wonderful technique anyway. I said, you know what, you need to do a trauma release from that time. Uh, when. I, that you found out and we talked about and, uh, it came to the, came to light that I was struggling with pornography again in our marriage. And she goes, wow, that's, that's crazy. And she goes ahead and we do the technique, which takes all of a few minutes.

And, uh,

she's like, I mean, I've experienced this a number of times, but that's crazy. It's entirely gone. And it was 100 percent I was gone for a few hours and she was like, it's totally gone. And she knows how much sense that makes, but she goes, wow, because we've been working through the repercussions of, and that's an unfaithfulness on my part to our marriage.

And I learned that that was. You know, in my, in my past, my, my grandfather and other issues going back and, um, and man, yeah. And, and there was no part of me that wanted to do any of that, uh, but it was a weakness and, uh, sure enough, it showed up again. And you know, I always want to be like. You know, I got this.

I can do this. It's no big deal. Uh, you know, I won't do it again. As I said before, say, mm, yeah, we can do that for only so much period of time before somehow we break down, uh, whether or not it's emotionally, whether or not it's physically, um, or we get really sick. Um, and so, uh, so yeah, that, that was just a powerful example of.

Of how really hurtful things that we go through can, can present with physical symptoms and then They can actually go away almost instantaneously. And I see that every day in my practice, which is pretty wild. That is so wild. Well, man, thank you so much for sharing so vulnerably about, you know, those past juggles and wow, like I'm blown away and So fascinated by your practice and how you're helping people.

And I have a million and one questions, but, um, it's clear, you know, you anticipate some of the questions so well, just this connection between our bodies and our emotions. Like there's clearly the connection there when, you know, we go through trauma in life that doesn't have a physical component in the immediate, but it certainly affects our bodies.

And you gave numerous examples there, which is, is amazing. Um, You've already spoken to this, but I want to give you a chance to mention it further, just if, you know, outside of your own story, how you've seen people who come from broken families, you know, struggle with physical, even pain or physical symptoms.

Again, you've spoken to this already, you mentioned the ACE research as well, but I'm just curious if you've seen anything in your own practice of what drove me. Even further to, uh, and I think that's why I needed to wait to, I needed to be a physical therapist who honed his skills with his hands and honed his techniques with how to address physical side of symptoms.

And I worked extremely hard on that. Um, and I was gifted. I worked under somebody who was really skilled with his hands for a good number of years, and I learned a ton and through that work. Because, not to boast, but I, I was told, and, and I saw good results. So I knew that I had some skill there, but there were plenty of people I couldn't make any change with whatsoever.

And they would come in every week with the same exact pain. Might get better for a couple of hours, maybe a few days eventually, but they're racked with it at time and time again. And I said, You know, I went into physical therapy to help people. I love the human body. I love learning about it. And I love it even more now that I'm learning even deeper.

The more I learn, the more I love it. It's amazing. And when I started seeing these people, I'm like And I take my work as ministry. As, you know, God sends me my clients. for me to assist in their life. And I had these people that would come time and time, I couldn't do anything to help them. And I said, there's got to be more.

And I started my practice. And then I finally started learning applied kinesiology. And I started having people with the techniques that I was learning refer to me because they would come in and they would say, I'd say, alright, you know, tell me a little bit about your story, what's going on. And I said, well, I don't really have anything physically wrong with me that I know of, really, but I have a lot of trauma in my past, and I, I just can't really function.

I can't get a job, I, I, I just can't function. And I'm like, I can realize I'm a physical therapist, right? And I'm like, Lord, I guess, I guess maybe they missed the physical component of the therapist. Well, you're obviously referred to by so and so because I helped them with similar things. I was like, all right, well, let's go.

And, and, and I learned through those people coming to me that yes, doing work through the physical, you can actually help. And, uh, so to back up just a little bit before I really started getting into that, there was, um, there was this one girl, uh, that stands out in my mind very much. And, uh, she came in, I did not work with her initially.

I didn't do the initial evaluation. One of my coworkers did. And, uh, I saw her, I think the second or third time and, uh, she would have. She wouldn't be able to walk. She could barely stand on her own two legs. She went from a very very active, functioning girl, to, I can't move. She would, uh, you know, lie down on the table, and you would muscle test the legs and stuff, and, you know, like, you have strength.

You know, you have strength. You go up and stand, and she'd like collapse. And you'd have to support her. And some days, uh, you'd have to have two people holding her, and she'd be trembling. Her legs would total tremble. And, uh, it was just like heartbreak. And it could, uh, in that setting where I was, I really couldn't, I really couldn't do that much.

Well. Uh, there was one evening where I was all alone with, with that, uh, in the, in the clinic. So it was quieter. So she could kind of focus. And uh, I had just started learning some of the applied kinesiology stuff and I was doing my business part time. And so I was there and uh, I said, you know, do you mind if we do some, some muscle testing?

And she was like, yeah, whatever, whatever works, you know, that's, and uh, yeah, anyway, I came up with a few things and I said. I said, you know, what's going, what's going on at home, you know, you know, what's, what's, what's bothering you so much at home, what's, what's the struggle there, uh, and she started, she, you know, started really breaking down and her parents were in the middle of a divorce and it came out of nowhere, I guess.

And uh, And they were in the middle of the hardship of a divorce. And I was like, oh. It's like my heart just, you know, totally went out to her. Um, and at that time, there was really nothing at that time that I knew to be able to do to actually help her in that case. I just knew like, man, you know, we can do X, Y, Z, any number of things, and I did everything we could.

Some improvement. Um, and then she'd come back in again, totally just, and then she started getting a little bit better and, uh, and he started seeing the direct connection with her environmental stability that she would report and how she could actually use her legs again. And then she might come in with a huge flare and there was again, you know, some kind of discord there.

So it was, and it was incredible. My first, probably my first. Extreme case that was like night and day between what was going on fully functioning, totally fine, and then something hit her. Bam. Can't use my legs. It was a really sad case, but she did eventually kind of get through it. Um, and you know, you know, at the end of the day, did she get through it for now?

Yeah, but chances are, uh, she still has a lot of that hurt in there. Uh, she's learned how to navigate it, which is an important survival tactic. Um, deep, true healing is what we, what we probably want more because it allows us actually freedom from that and, and to be free from the bondage of, of that, of that hurt, that wound, uh, and allow that to, to, to heal.

So that was one, that was one really big thing for me. And then I wrote down another one. What was the other one? Oh yeah, so early on too, I was like, I had this client who, like every October, so three years in a row, she would come in from October to like the end of November, come in for like six weeks treatments.

And by the third year, it was the same exact thing. And I was looking, looking at her chart, I'm like, it's like the same time of year. So this was before I got into any of this. This was just, I was, you know, a regular physical therapist. I turned and looked at her and I was like, Did anything happen this time of year a couple years ago?

You know, I started seeing you three years ago and you came last year for the same thing about the same time and you're coming back this year. You know, just wondering, did anything happen? Because you could have seasonal triggers. You know, in the autumn time of year, the leaves change, everything changes in the air.

That was her trigger. And again, she broke down at that time and said, yeah, she got her husband left her. And I was like, wow. And that was three years prior to me even getting into any of this and I was like, and you know, she let it out. And the thing about that was that the therapy manual therapy technique that I was doing with her actually helped her to release some of that.

She wept, she cried, she spoke it out. And I was doing just normal manual therapy, uh, release of certain nerves and muscles and. cranial bones and different things I was doing. Uh, and she really processed. Anyway, I was there at that clinic for three years after that. And I didn't see her again. So, um, it was just neat to see that too.

It's like, yeah.

Unbelievable. Like I think some people listening right now are maybe having a hard time believing, honestly, believing this. And it's . You can't actually fully, and I believe you believe it, and, and I a hundred percent, I'm like really? Um, understanding of people who are like, dude, you're nuts. I, that's crazy.

Talk. And I'm totally understanding that because it is, it sounds nuts until you experience it. And, you know, as soon as somebody experiences it and says, My pain is entirely gone after you just did that and you didn't touch my arm. It's not until that time that they come back and they say, You know what, I haven't thought about what happened, what came up and um There was actually a whole lot more to that time frame that I didn't even realize that that day I didn't allow myself to get to, but there's actually a whole lot more.

And I was like, great, you don't even need to tell me, but that's great. You know, but, and, and, and not only that, now that I am in it, you know, I see, uh, One of the other women that I had treated for multiple years and, uh, another case that I was just, I felt totally Useless almost. I could be, you know, she loved me as a therapist.

She said, you're amazing. And in the back of my head I'm like, I, I am so thankful that you think I'm doing you such good and I'm here for you. But I know I could, somebody or something or some other thing could do you so much better. Because, uh, and, uh, she was just stuck in a pattern and she had a lot of hurt and IBS, colon issues, and all of these digestive things, they're so commonly linked.

to indigestible situations. We talk about stuff like, oh yeah, our digestion's off. Um, but like if you have a real bad disease in the digestive tract, it's normally linked to some type of indigestible something that happened in your life. You can't digest a particular event or a whole situation in your life.

I can't comprehend that. That's just too bad for me to even put a. Um, and anyway, so yeah, there's, there's examples just left and right that, that just are incredible. Yeah, no, we need to tell you the camera, I think it's fascinating. It's so good. And my goodness. And I think one resource I would recommend for people who want to learn more about a lot of this, I know maybe not specifically your field, but just overall how trauma affects our bodies and emotional wounds is the body keeps the score by Bessel van der Kolk.

Like that will kind of give you the scientific proof, a much deeper explanation than we can do. Expand your thought process of how these things actually affect us. I think everyone listening, you know, unless your life has been like pain free, which there's very few people like that, uh, can probably point to something in our life that resonates with one of the stories that you told, you know, just like physical ailments or pain that connects to some sort of emotional trauma or, yeah, and in a lot of cases we haven't been freed from that, unfortunately.

And I, I wanted to talk to you a bit about just this whole, um, tension when it comes to healing. So on one end. There's maybe this unrealistic goal that some of us have that we want, like, our life to be this utopia, to be this perfection, to have all the pain ridden from us and just be able to function perfectly.

Like, obviously that's not realistic, but we somewhat have a desire for that, right? But on the other end, there's plenty, probably more people who just give in to resignation. Just think like, well, my life is always going to be this way, like we said before. And all I can really do is just survive. All I can really do is just get by.

I'm curious, um, what's like that realistic goal or expectation between those two extremes? Like, how can we, you know, on one hand not despair and give in to like, well, this is hopeless, but on the other hand not, maybe hope that all of our problems in life and our pain will be, um, resolved, though there is a possibility, I firmly believe that there is a possibility that a lot of it can be.

So I'm just curious, like, what's the right goal, expectation? It can be a fine line in a way or, and it's very personal too, um, depending on, you know, what you're suffering with, um, you know, some chronic diseases and stuff. Yes, you're not, you might not get back to like 100 percent where you have a super strong immune system, let's say, or you have a super robust um, uh, system that helps keep you from anxiety or you have a super robust system that, that you're never depressed ever again.

Um, yeah, there is a expectation or a realization that, you know, life is not without any hardship. And as I briefly mentioned before, I think a lot of our society at this point, it's so geared towards comfort, towards convenience, towards no pain, that we actually, we tell ourselves and we begin to believe that That's actually possible and I think some of us are starting to realize that if everything is entirely convenient and 100 percent done for us, we become like, you know, dwindling, you know, Can't barely function and do anything for ourselves anymore.

We don't know how to do anything because everything's done for us. Um so II think it's important in the healing process to remember that it takes work. It's actually a never ending process of of living right. So, living is experiencing. We're we're the center of our beings is our heart Right. Our heart is is the center of it all.

We're we're made for love Right. We're we're made for relationship We're made for connection We're made for unity And you know as a as a catholic too, you know, we're made to unite back to our heavenly creator Who created us out of love? and Uh, which is also why when we experience hurt from a loved one or from a relationship where there should be love, those hurts hurt a whole lot deeper because they hit us at our core.

Yeah, our heart suffers greatly, not by those people who we don't really care about or don't care much about us. Those don't really hurt us all that much. We can just kind of shrug 'em off and it's not really a big deal actually. But when those hurts come from the ones that we've loved or should love us, our parents, or our loved ones of any other nature, those are deep wounds.

I also deeply believe, because of the way I see people come in and out of my practice, those who know that we cannot really rely on man, because we'll always be disappointed. We are all Imperfect human beings And if we seek for full connection and full satisfaction out of somebody else any other human One it's not fair to that other human Because they can't possibly provide everything that you need And two it's not fair to yourself because you'll always be disappointed So there's You A whole, a spot, a center of our heart that really only somebody outside of our fallen human being can fill something, somebody greater than us, who, who, at the end of the day, you know, loves us into being to experience.

Yes, there's hardships, but to experience the growth that can come from that. Um, so there's that expectation of. It will never be perfect. If we're thinking that, oh, it'll be everything will be totally fine. I'll get through this Point in my life and then boom, you know, it'll be great. Yes. That's an unrealistic expectation there will always be hardships, but What we want to be able to do is to be able to tolerate the hardships to be able to respond to the hardships not necessarily with so much anger and reactionary Ness But maybe with, okay, I really don't like the fact that, you know, that for whatever reason my, um, sibling, uh, is going behind my back and talking terrible things about me.

No, I don't like that. But I don't need to respond like what I used to respond to. I can take that suffering and I can actually be okay with it. Not just tell myself I'm okay with it. My entire body can be like, okay. I'm okay that they're talking bad about me. I'm okay that other people don't think I'm great.

I'm okay with people thinking that I'm really not a good guy. It's like, but if you're doing the best you can, you're doing the best you can. So there's like that expectation of, yes, it takes hard work, but what you're doing is you can change your reaction to what's in front of you. There is a possibility, there is an openness to changing your reaction, which then changes your life.

It's first an outlook, an acceptance of where you're at, and then having a realistic outlook, saying, Okay, and honestly, if you have a realistic outlook, the level of improvement is actually normally even greater than what your realistic outlook is. If you're open to that healing, and I think that's the next step is, is openness and accepting reality, then being willing to do something about it and to change your situation.

Um, and then to be open to the healing, whatever that might mean for you. So good. Yeah. And I love the whole idea of, you know, post traumatic growth. you know, being stuck in the past and always being like handicapped in a sense. And even if, you know, let's say physical ailments can't be perfectly cured, there is a way to kind of move through them and live with them.

That is truly healing where you can become a more whole functional person, even if the, you know, that particular, uh, ailment, illness, trauma, whatever, isn't totally gone. Or maybe a better way to say it is you still have the scars from it because we can't remove the scars. We can't remove, you know, fully.

Maybe all the negative effects, but you can grow some mastery around it. You can heal the root cause to where it's not really affecting you as much anymore. And I've seen that in my life and the lives of other people who've, you know, worked with people like you've been through trauma therapy, you know, maybe one minute they're depressed, they're cutting, they're like suicidal.

And then they work on healing those root. Wounds next minute. They're, they're good. And that, you know, they're not tempted to cut. They're not tempted to suicide. They're not constantly depressed. Like, yes, maybe there's some seasonal component of depression that they have to kind of learn to manage. But overall, they're in like a much healthier spot.

And so I think, you know, like you're saying, the goal is to be healthier, more whole, more functional, not to be like living in this, like we said, utopia where nothing can go wrong. And, you know, our life is so comfortable that There's no pain. It's like that. That's a joke. Like we can't have that exactly.

And one book that I haven't read yet, maybe you have, and I've heard a lot of people rave about is the whole comfort crisis book. So comfort crisis, just talking about how, yeah, it's apparently it's a great book. Just saying how, you know, our, the comforts in our lives have honestly ruined us as a culture in many ways.

Like we don't know how to do hard things anymore. And, uh, we really need to get away from that. And so there's, yeah, a lot going on there. Um, definitely a lot to dissect and I'm sure, um, we could have, man, a whole another conversation about a lot of this. I want to give you a chance to respond, but I do also want to hear about your therapy, about, um, QNRT and how that's helped people.

Yeah. Where do, where do I even start? So yeah, quantum neurological reset therapy was an answer to prayer for me. Uh, as I briefly mentioned before, I had people more than. More than a few people coming to me for, I have had this trauma and it's having this effect on me and could you help? Uh, and I started getting more that I said, God, if you want me to work with these people, um, I believe there's more that I could possibly do for them.

And if that's the case, could you help me learn it or help show me where I can learn this? So I was at a seminar, uh, and I heard QNRT as an acronym, and he only mentioned it briefly, and when the lecturer mentioned it, I felt like a lightning bolt hit me, and I was like, oh, that's what I'm studying next!

And I had no idea what it was. So I wrote it down in my notebook and I was like, That's what I'm studying next. My wife loves to tell people that. Yeah, he called me at lunch and was like, Hey honey! She's like, how's your seminar? I was like, it's great. I was like, yeah, but I know what I'm studying next. I'm so excited.

She goes, uh, that's awesome. How's the course? And I was, it's great. But this anyway, she's like, what is it? And I said, it's Q and R T. She goes, what's that? I was like, I don't know. What's it stand for? I don't know, but I know it's going to be great. She said, you're crazy. Anyway, I went home and we looked it up together.

I didn't look it up until I got home. Uh, and it was an answer to prayer because it addresses adverse Events that we go through and how it impacts our nervous system directly and how those experiences what we go through sometimes get trapped in our nervous system and create patterns of response and those responses can create imbalances in our nervous system.

It takes foundationally, it takes, you know, quick question for you, joy, you know, what is it? And don't overthink it. That coordinates every cell in your entire body. I guess it would be, yeah, your nervous system, your brain. Exactly. Your nervous system and your brain. They coordinate 30 trillion cells. And do you know how your body's digesting your food right now?

Do you know where it's sending the proteins? Where it's sending all the carbohydrates and how it's doing all that? No. Thank God. Thank God, no. It happens out of habit. So millions of things are happening every minute in our body. In our nervous system that communicates trillions of cells together and tons of messages are being sent at lightning speeds through our body to keep us alive and to allow us to function.

And that amazing nervous system that coordinates all these things. It can't differentiate between a physical stress. stress, an emotional stress, or a chemical stress, because the process in which they communicate are the same neurotransmitters, the same chemicals in our body, the same hormones, all those things are the same, they just communicated as stress.

So because of that, QNRT takes an evaluation of the brain and nervous system, and you can, see patterns of where different stresses, Affect our nervous system and, you know, you can even dial down as to timeframe period. Um, you know, when was this an issue in your nervous system? Okay. It was also related to a viral reaction in your body.

Oh yeah, I had Lyme's really bad when I was five. Okay, yeah, it was linked to that Lyme's. And, oh yeah, that was the same time frame that I experienced this other thing. Um, and it, so it helps us to tie together the nervous system and how different things have affected it. Um, and then finally, it responds to, as I mentioned, the lie detection test.

It responds to lies or truth. And So if we want to let go of something, but our nervous system is like, no, not ready to let go. And you said, no, I'd like to let go of that. We say, all right, let's go. So your brainstem, let's say, right? So we live so much of our life in the limbic system. Limbic system is our reactionary survival mechanism.

Right? And fight or flight, right? Everybody knows sympathetic response, fight or flight. So much of us are in a sympathetic overload in today's society, more than ever, I think, for many more reasons than one. But sympathetic overload, if we're meant to function, let's just pick a random number at 10, a level of 10 stress, okay, is right here.

And we're functioning here, we're doing okay, right? As soon as something blows us over our threshold. Our body can't regulate back down and that inability to regulate back down is trauma to the body. That trauma can get lodged into our nervous system. And if you live up here for too long, you get totally wiped out.

You get drained and you start failing in many more ways than one. And that nervous system just can't take it anymore. And you're more reactive, uh, you, you can't focus, you know, different, there are different ways of different ways of reacting. Some of it is sleeplessness. It all depends on exactly where in your system it has affected you and it would tells you then how it affects us.

And it's because there are patterns in the nervous system. You know, when you hear a sudden sound, that's triggered through a particular part of the brain. Um, when you smell something, that's triggered through a different part of the brain. And all of those are normal neurological pathways that our brain functions, our body functions.

So we take all those things for granted, but when you start realizing that, when you smell something, you're like, Oh, that instantaneously brings me back to my grandmother's room when I was a kid. That, that was, that must have been, I don't know. Uh, a perfume that she used or something in, in her room that, that, that makes me think of my grandma.

You know, we've all had instances like that where you smell bacon cookies and you're like, Oh, those were the cookies that, uh, that grandpa always made for Christmas after, you know, Christmas dinner or dessert. And you know, all of these things, we have things that can trigger us back or the other way around.

You know, people smell something and they're like, Oh. My ex husband used to wear that, I hate that smell, or something like that. You know, people say these things all the time, but we don't realize that, well that's partially because it's triggering that part of the brain, and that part of the brain is still holding on to that hurt.

If you can clear that trigger out, which is how we use cranial nerves, which are the closest thing to the brain. Um, and we use the, the eyes, which are so powerful for our, for our nervous system. The first thing to, to grow from the brain in utero. And we use all these things to activate. And reprogram, that's what we end up doing, is reprogramming your response, as you just mentioned a moment ago, your response to certain triggers.

So let's say, no, it's not all things that are in the past. Let's say somebody's going through something right now in their life. They're going through something right now and they can't escape that relationship. They're a child who lives in the family's house and there's actually no place for them to go right now.

Okay, so that's not something that we're dealing with in the past. All these things are not just past. It can be very much present. So no, we're not going to change, you can't change that relationship. You can't change that situation that you're stuck in. So sometimes the issues at home, they have symptoms when they're at home.

They're really anxious at home. They can't sleep at home or something like that. And then all of a sudden they go maybe someone else's house and all of a sudden they get a great night's sleep and the kids like. Well, that was weird. Well, all of a sudden, every time they go to school, their headache kind of gets a little bit better.

Or vice versa. Sometimes the stress is at school. They're being bullied at school. They're not telling anybody or something. Or you have a teacher who's really mean to you, a different kind of bullying, something like that. And they're not telling anybody. But every time they go to school, they get a headache.

They end up calling the nurse every week, pretty much, and they get taken home. And then you find out later, okay, they're dealing with bullying. So there are certain situations that we can't necessarily avoid currently, but what we can do, and that's what that's what Q and R T has been able to do is change the nervous system's response to it.

And that's powerful. So no, the bullying may not stop or the situation between your parents at home and the moment might not stop or, uh, any number of situations you can actually change. Maybe you. In your time right now, but what you can do is say I'm accepting of this right now, and I'm not allowing it to Not allow me to move forward Or I'm I'm no longer holding on to that and keeping it from allowing me to do XYZ So so your response and And the fun thing is too, sometimes the spouses of people come in and they're like, What do you do to my wife?

Like, she's totally different. Or, man, my husband, he hasn't done that in years. Or like, he's just happy. Oh, one other instance. So I had this, had this kid and Apparently he screamed bloody murder every time they gave him a bath. He was like two years old or something, a year and a half or two years old. I mean, his whole life, gave him a bath, screamed bloody murder.

I didn't know this. I was treating him for something totally different. And I was like, Hey, he needs to take a bath in some essential oils. I love essential oils also. And, uh, and the parents like, Hmm, yeah, he screams bloody murder. I was like, okay, let's see if we can do something that might help this out or whatever.

So we did some treatment and, uh, And then the next day she sends me a picture of him playing as happy as can be in the bathtub the next day. And she was like, this is a miracle. And I was, you know, it's another experience of the situation didn't change. He's still taking a bath. Nothing else changed in that situation.

That's a simple benign situation of a bath, right? Uh, but even benign things can trigger us somehow that trigger was linked to something else that was more. hurtful than just the bath. And that trigger was what his body was going into fight or flight. It was going into, ah, I don't know. I got to survive.

I'm freaking out. And the child's response is to scream. Sometimes. Adult responses to screen too. And, you know, sometimes we're in total protective freak out mode. We all know our nervous system's response to stress, right? If we're about to give a talk or, you know, public speaking, and we get a little nervous in our stomach or, you know, we get a little raised heartbeat or we start sweating a little bit more.

You know, all these things are normal responses we experience every day, right? But sometimes we don't realize that triggers that shouldn't. Make that happen are making us happen. And that's what anxiety and anticipatory anxiety, all those things are is that, well, the situation right now is actually okay, but you're interpreting it as not.

Okay, you're interpreting it as I'm going to die and I need to do something about this. And so you're freaking out and that's where you're just changing our response to the same exact situation that that yellow car just drove up the driveway and. It's okay. It's, you know, it's not a taxi cab who's delivering the guy who came in and raped you.

You're, you are now okay with the fact that a yellow car can drive up the driveway and you don't have to respond with a pattern of, oh, that means bad stuff's going to happen. Not every yellow car driving up means that. And so that's where you're actually changing your response to the same exact trigger.

Um, and allowing your body to let go of those patterns. Because, uh, we're trained. Nervous system learns our name. It learns many more things than we even give it credit for. It learns to react in certain ways. Like, for instance, we know, you know, when we're walking down the street. And we get a little kind of creepy feeling.

And you don't quite realize why maybe yet, but then you kind of see somebody in the corner of your eye, you're like, it's a little off putting. I'm not sure what's going on there, but I'm not going to stay to find out what's going on. I'm just going to kind of go this way. Yeah. Um, you don't know why, you don't need to know why, but for whatever reason, your system was aware of something not so good going on down there.

Um. And, you know, those are things that our nervous system knows and it tells us by activating our sympathetic nervous system. But when that gets awry, normal things activate our survival mechanism that you might not want to happen because that can really debilitate our life. Um, and we want to actually accept what's happened in the past or in the present and You know, no longer react in the same way, but change our reactions and heal from them.

So I don't really know where that just went, but no, it's super helpful. No, in those false alarms that sometimes, you know, set us off, you know, being able to disarm them and move through them. That makes so much sense. So wow. You truly, Dr. Gunn, you have a PhD in this stuff. You truly do, um, on many levels and, uh, well, thank you for explaining it and going through it.

I'm sure we could talk so much more about all of this, but I want to make sure if someone's interested in working with you, uh, what do you offer and how do they get that? My PhD is an in person. Only, um, technique, uh, and so I offer that I'm in New York, in Pauling, New York, and I have a practice right out of my house, and, uh, I'm here full time now, and I do offer some virtual treatments generally, not for QNRT, but other work.

Um, another book, um, which is The Emotion Code. Second to, and that's also a great book. Um, Dr. Nelson wrote that book and it goes into some treatment of, uh, how the emotions affect the body and that type of work I do virtually. I do mostly in person just because it's a real connection and a real, uh, a different level of treatment because we can do, because I'm a physical therapist.

So there's a lot of hands on, a lot of cranial. A lot of, a lot of implementation of hands on work with the, uh, with the emotional work. Because again, the body doesn't differentiate the two. So they kind of go hand in hand. And, uh, 98 percent of my clientele I do QNRT with now as, as part of the treatment and then help facilitate healing through other avenues that I've been gifted to learn to.

So those are really in person. And then I do, uh, Um, the virtual work that I do, I keep minimal for the most part, uh, but there can be hugely helpful things. Um, and there, there are examples of how that works as well, but, um, I don't, I don't really have much of a presence on social media or anything like that.

My website is pretty minimal, uh, but the best way to probably contact me is, is by email. Uh, chris at be not afraid pt. com, which I'm sure you'll also put in the link and all that. And, and also my, my business number, um, I'm reasonably good at getting voicemails back or, uh, I don't answer generally, but I'll return voicemails.

And uh, so, uh, calling the business number there is another great way to get in touch with me if there are any questions or curiosities on, on treatment, anything like that. Love it. No, so good. Thanks for mentioning all that. And we'll definitely link to be not afraid pt. com. Is that right? And then, uh, we'll yeah, put all the, the number in the show notes and everything like that.

So thank you so much Dr. Gannon. One thing I wanted to mention to people, if you're intrigued by this, you know, setting up a call, you know, doing some sort of a consult, I know you offer that too. Could be a good next step. Um, I know people will travel. To, you know, different therapists or physical therapists in order to get the benefits that they offer because there's not many people doing this stuff.

And so that is certainly a possibility, especially if you're, you know, in that area of the country or you can, you know, get there, um, to do some sort of treatment. So I know there's a lot of possibilities there. So I just encourage people like think outside the box if it's something where you're thinking like, wow, I could really benefit from this.

But oh, it's. far away, or, you know, maybe I couldn't afford it right now. I would just challenge you to think creatively and figure out a way that maybe you could, um, potentially work with Dr. again in the future, they end up just, there's nowhere else to turn for them. And they've, they've tried many things.

Yeah. And, and so I have many clients that travel many, several hours, uh, to come in and I'm. In the near future, we'll be setting up a better situation where I can, uh, to accommodate more people, um, so that we can have longer periods of time. So Dr. Turner, who was the founder of QNRT, he has a place down in Roswell, Georgia.

And he is, um, he is set up so that he can have people stay in a hotel nearby and do intensives. So he does three, four, five day intensives where you get a lot of work done in a short, you know, in a several days back to back. And that's something that I'm, I'm working towards as well. Um, but yes, traveling sometimes, you know, I only need several sessions sometimes to make huge progress.

Love that. No, I, yeah. And if it works, man, it works. And it's better than spending years in an office with, you know, someone who may have good intentions, but they're just the, that method of therapy, that method of trying to help them. It just isn't one tidbit for people to, if you don't see some improvement with what you're doing with somebody, um, you know, we can be generous and say three, two, three months.

If you're not seeing any change, maybe. Explore other options. There you go. Second opinion about, at the very least, schedule, consult, phone call, something. Same thing for years. If it's just not making much of a change, there's, there's better things out. Yeah. It's waste of time, waste of money. Individually.

There is healing, there is growth. And don't allow that to say, well, I've already tried. There's more. Never. Stop seeking for, for healing. Never Stop seeking love and truth. Hmm. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much again for your time and your expertise. You're really beautiful and, um, and we all need healing in our lives.

Uh, so Of course, couldn't agree more. I want to give you the last word. What final advice or encouragement would you give to everyone listening, especially people who feel just stuck in life? They're going through pain, especially because of maybe dysfunction at home, or their parents getting divorced.

What final advice or encouragement would you give to them? You know, it would be hard for me to say anything other than the words of a dying man, a client, who said to his family, uh, embrace the cross. Embrace your suffering and when you are not feeling loved and you don't believe you're loved by anyone, know that you are loved and that you are cherished.

Can't get better than that. So, uh, never stop seeking it. For love you will find if you seek.

Again, if you're interested in learning more about how Dr. Gen can help you, I just encourage you to schedule a consult with him, send him an email, give him a call, whatever it takes to just learn more about how he can help you. Now, if you're not ready for that, I wanted to let you know that we have a free video course on trauma that you can go through right now if you wanted to.

It's called Broken to Whole, Tactics to Heal from Your Parents Divorce or Broken Marriage. In just two hours, you're going to learn from a trauma therapist who has over 17 years of experience. experience treating trauma. You're going to learn things like why the trauma of your parents divorce or family dysfunction is so damaging.

Uh, you're going to be able to identify the root of your struggles, which is often trauma as you'll learn in the course, you're going to feel validated and less alone in your struggles. You'll understand and better be able to navigate your emotions. You're also going to build healthier relationships and a better life.

And perhaps most of all, you're going to avoid passing your brokenness onto the people that you love the most. And so if you want to get, Access to that free course. Again, it's free. Just go to restored ministry.com/broken to whole. Again, restored ministry.com/broken to whole, or just click on the link in the show notes.

You can sign up for free on that page, and then just start watching the videos again, restored ministry.com/broken to whole, or just click on the link in the show. That wraps up this show. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken family, share this podcast with them.

Seriously, if you want to, take like 30 seconds right now to just shoot them a text message with this episode or another. And you can just say something like, hey, I listened to this podcast. Made me think of you and everything you have been through with your family. Just wanted to share. No pressure to, you know, actually listen.

Um, but just wanted to send it your way. Something like that will go a long way. And I promise you, they will be grateful even if they don't say much. right now. It is going to help them. I wish someone would have done that with me years ago. In closing, always remember, you're not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And always remember the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#110: 10 Ways to Make Therapy Fail or Succeed for You | Clare Eckard

If there were 10 things you can do to make therapy succeed (or fail), would you want to know them? I know I would. 

In this episode, a therapist joins us to share those tips, plus: 

• The goal of therapy and the temptation to idealize healing

• A tool for dealing with troubling thoughts

• The struggle to put words to your own emotions and experiences of brokenness

If you’ve ever been to therapy and it hasn’t gone well or you’re considering therapy but you’re unsure how to make it successful, this episode is for you.

Schedule a Free Consult at St. Raphael Counseling

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

There are 10 things that you can do or not do in order to make therapy succeed or fail. And in this episode, we're going to break those down with my guest who is a therapist. Plus we talk about the goal of therapy and our tendency to idolize healing. We also talk about a simple tool that you can use.

My guest shares a simple tool that you can use to deal with troubling thoughts. We also talk about how all of us experienced that struggle of. Putting into words, our emotions and our wounds. You're also just gonna get some really awesome quotes from this episode. And we also talk about what to do if you're dealing with a situation where you're not happy with your current therapist.

And so if you've ever been to therapy and it didn't go very well, or maybe you're considering going to therapy and you wanna make the most of it, this episode is for you. You're really gonna benefit from the content in it. And so stay with us.

Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli, and this is episode 110. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found this podcast helpful, and even healing, for tons of feedback. Graciela said this, she said, Just listen to the podcast, man, it's great. I hope many young people will listen. I wish I would have had resources like this.

When I was growing up, Karen said this, she said, what an excellent podcast. I've listened to three episodes so far, and I can relate to so much of this. There's so much isolation with being a child of divorce. And I feel I've found a community with this podcast. Again, we're so happy that we've been able to guide you to help you in your journey.

And if you want to tell us how we've been able to help you, we'd love to hear it. Just go to restored ministry. Again, restored ministry. com slash testimony, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Claire Eckerd. Claire is a psychotherapist with a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling from Franciscan University of Steubenville with two concentrations, crisis and trauma counseling and Christian counseling.

She works at St. Raphael Counseling with teens and adults presenting with various mental health questions. struggles. Uh, the team of therapists at St. Raphael Counseling serves individuals ages four and up, as well as couples, families across the front range area of Colorado with telehealth and in person options.

Uh, St. Raphael Counseling also provides testing for students who may have a learning attention or autism spectrum disorder. And so in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows.

That this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, again, if you were to take out the God parts, if you're going to take out the faith parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And so my challenge to you would be just listen with an open mind.

And again, I know you're going to benefit from it. And so with that, here's my chat with Claire.

Claire, it's so good to have you on the show. Welcome. Thank you so much. It's an honor, honor to be here. Likewise, honored to have you. I want to go into your backstory a little bit, but starting out, I'm just curious. Why did you become a therapist? Mm, million dollar question. Um, yeah, so it really was a calling, which like, In faith terms is like, yeah, that movement in my heart for, um, God, just wanting to use my talents in this way and that passion to serve others in this way.

And it really took a few years to take the leap to go to grad school. Cause I was honestly kind of intimidated by it. Um, and just the ideas in my head of what I thought it would be like, but the doors just kept opening. So here I am, and I'm really happy. Beautiful. I love it. And tell me a little bit about your training and maybe the type of therapy that you do now.

So you went to my alma mater, Franciscan University for grad school. Is that right? Yeah. And yeah, it's a clinical mental health counseling program is what it's called. Um, so we're accredited by the state. Um, and then we're also a Catholic university. It's actually Kind of the only in person Catholic, like, authentically Catholic university that has this kind of program.

Um, which is why I chose it. Um, and they also had a concentration in crisis and trauma and Christian counseling, which was really neat as well. Beautiful. Okay. I love that. And in your work now, is there a particular therapy model that you follow? Or how does that work? I'm not a therapist. You're talking to a lay person here, but I'm just curious.

Um, yeah, kind of what you're doing today. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I mostly use cognitive behavioral therapy, which I'm sure you've heard of. Um, most people that have taken a psychology class or gone to therapy have heard of it because it's one of the most popular, um, theories used and it's been around. Um, about the longest and just has a lot of research backing it.

Um, and I really love to use it. Cause a lot of it is like getting to the heart of the issue and unpacking what's true and what might feel true, but not actually be true. And, and I also just find it really compatible for people that, um, yeah, are living a Christian faith or Catholic faith and want to make sure that the, whatever theory we're using is compatible with their faith.

And since so much of it is unpacking the truth, it's, it's really compatible. Very cool. And, uh, I know some people just think of, uh, cognitive behavioral therapy as just like talk therapy, but it sounds like there's more to it than just that. And. There is a difference, I think, between like our worldview and our experience of the world.

I've, I heard, um, Bessel van der Kirk, who wrote the book, The Body Keeps the Score, talk about this recently in a podcast episode. He was basically saying that, you know, it's a good thing to have a worldview, like what you believe is true about the world. Like, you know, being a Christian or if you're Jewish, whatever, like you have a worldview, even, you know, atheists have worldviews.

But he said more important to that is how you respond to the world. And so much of how you respond to the world comes down to really the brokenness, the trauma that you've experienced and the virtues that you've developed. And so, um, I thought that was really profound and interesting. And so I love how you're able to kind of help people align their worldview with their kind of response to the world.

Yeah. Wow. I love that. I might use that. Please do. I wish I could say I came up with it, but I didn't, but I, um, I wanted to go into your story as well. So I'm just curious, what's been your experience with, with trauma, with brokenness and healing? Yeah, no, also a great question. Um, and totally has a lot of layers, but basically, Long story short is, um, yeah, I had an eating disorder starting end of middle school into high school, a little bit into college, and didn't really know that therapy was an option for me, um, just didn't.

have the knowledge, like, that it was a resource, um, and know if it was a trusted resource. So I was very skeptical of it, um, for different reasons. Um, but, uh, praise God, a priest directed me to go to a counselor that happened to be free at school at Ave Maria's where I did my undergrad. And yeah, it was super life changing and, and actually my first therapist wasn't the most impactful, but it was finally a space where I felt like I could be understood, which was new because I didn't really understand what was going on.

Why I couldn't stop when I wanted to stop some behaviors. Um, but it was actually my second therapist who really, really changed my life. Um, and was able to just speak into my story and help me understand myself and how I could make steps towards change and freedom and healing. Um, Yeah, I remember at the time thinking like this kind of little small voice like maybe I could do this someday, but probably not So yeah, Wow, beautiful.

Okay, so you had this Transformational experience that eventually led to you wanting to help other people have those same transformations, which is really really beautiful before we go deeper there I am curious about kind of that experience of waking up to the fact that you had this problem this Disorder I I'm curious, like, did you have language to put to that disorder out of the gate?

Did you realize, like, oh, I'm struggling with an eating disorder, this is what it's called, sort of thing. And the reason I ask that question is, I remember, you know, when my parents split when I was really young, and then later, or not really young, I was, you know, 11, around 11 years old, and then in the years that followed, especially in the high school, having experiences of, um, anxiety and even depression.

And I didn't have the language to put to those things, so I didn't actually know what I was experiencing. Um, I don't even know how I thought about it, but I just knew I just didn't feel right. That was kind of the way that I would talk about it. And so, um, eventually got the language and was able to recognize, Wow, okay, I'm dealing with kind of intense anxiety, or maybe a little bit of OCD here, and some depression, and all those different things.

So I'm just curious if you were able to kind of pinpoint the language, and if not, when that occurred. Yeah, totally. I have a lot of thoughts from what you said, but I'll start with I think that experience is what most people come to therapy with, like, I know something's wrong. And I know whatever I've tried is not working.

And I just need help from someone who might understand more. And I think that's probably mostly how I came to therapy. I did. I do remember like in middle school, we learned about eating disorders in my like guidance And I remember asking a friend, like, I wonder, like, do I have this? And she's like, no, no, no.

Like you would know if you had it. And then I was like, okay. But I think a lot of maybe, yeah. What was going on inside me emotionally. Like I didn't know how to vocalize how it was feeling. So I think a lot of what I learned was. I have emotions and they're neither good nor bad. They just are. And, um, it's okay to have them.

And I have emotional needs and I can like in your book, you talk about like, how do we choose healthy coping? And I really had to learn what that meant and that. I was just choosing really unhealthy coping. Yeah, no, it's easy to do and I can relate to with a lot of what you said. I love that you said that about kind of people entering into therapy often with that sense of like, something's not right, but I don't totally know how to talk about it.

And I think there is so much freedom in working with a therapist like yourself who can help you. You know, first kind of grow this awareness, recognize what you're dealing with in a sense, diagnose the problem. And then once you've done that, then you can, like you said, do all some coping strategies and then hopefully also work on healing maybe the root cause of it so that it either disappears the problem or becomes a much more manageable thing to, to go through.

So I love that you said all of that and man, there's so much we can talk about there. Any further thoughts before we move on? Um, yeah, I mean, there's so much more we can talk about, I think. I just like that you use the word manage, because I think often people come in like wanting to fix the problem or wanting to get rid of anxiety, but anxiety, like, everyone has it even, like, The perfect mother of God was anxious when she couldn't find her son and it's really more about how can I manage this better and learn more about myself so that I can do that.

Yeah, no, and I think those, um, those tactics are so important. And I do think, I do think there is hope that in some scenarios, I don't think every wound can be healed to like a hundred percent. But I've seen evidence that there are, there is the possibility of even going beyond the management. Um, but what often I think needs to happen, like you're saying is like, we need to at least get some sort of like, you know, handle on the situation, some sort of, like you said, coping mechanisms to like make it through.

Um, and then hopefully we can go from that just like surviving or, um, kind of getting by to then. You know, thriving. And so maybe, um, yeah, would you talk about that a little bit? I'm just curious kind of what you've seen in your life too. Can wounds be completely healed or is that kind of a pipe dream?

Maybe that is too wishful. Oh, I like this. Um, uh, this is a very interesting question. I think The way I usually conceptualize it based on my own journey and just people I work with is like, there's still a scab usually, but I mean, we also have in our body. There's ones that don't have scabs. So I think maybe some things like do really become a part of your past that you, yeah, there's no scab.

It just is something you worked through. But I think, The way I usually think about it, especially with mental health struggles is like, there usually is a scab because even like, um, like compulsive behaviors such as eating disorder. Like if you have struggled and learned how to use it as an unhealthy coping, it is still something that you might be tempted to do again.

And you just have to kind of be aware. I have that scab. It's been healed. But if I find myself needing to cope emotionally, I need to be vigilant of like, what is healthy coping? And if I slip up, what supports do I have? What do I need to do to get back on track? That's good. And that makes a lot of sense.

And I do think different wounds can be treated differently. And I do think You've probably seen this too. Some therapists or therapy models are more effective at treating certain things than others. And I like to use the analogy of the medical world or our physical bodies when we're trying to heal them.

So, you know, there are situations where if you were to break your wrists or your arm, that can be completely healed. Now there is, there's going to be the tissue that builds up. I don't know why I can't think of the name, the um, the fractured like bone or the tissue essentially that, you know, develops in response to the broken bone, which actually can make it right, stronger if I'm getting that right.

I'm not a doctor or a therapist, um, as you can tell. But yeah, I think, I think there's something to be said for that. But the way that I like to think about healing is in the Google definition of healing, which is like the process of becoming like healthy and whole. And I think that does look different in different situations.

So I do think in certain situations, Maybe a wound can be healed to the point where you don't even recognize it was there in the, at all, to begin with. Whereas others, like you said, there is maybe a continual, like, scar or scab. Um, whereas others, there might be a continual limp because it's something we just haven't figured out yet how to heal.

And that's where maybe I'm a little, um, idealistic in my thinking about healing. Because I think, There conceptually potentially is a way to heal all these things, but maybe we just haven't figured it out yet, or I don't know, you know, what you think about that, but I think there is the potential in the future, maybe that we, for example, come up with better models, and I've seen some of them to heal trauma and that work better than things we've done in the past and almost maybe eliminate or make it, like you said, way more manageable to deal with that trauma.

So I don't know if that's making sense, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Curious what you think about that. Yeah. I, it's actually funny. You bring up like the kind of idealism appealing. Cause I remember in my internship, which I did at Francis skin for students, um, I used to write in my treatment plans, like the goal is to like reduce the anxiety or reduce.

And my supervisor was like, That's what he was like. No, it's not. It's to manage, um, because, um, to reduce like it kind of creates this sometimes impossible standard. And I'm trying to think of like, it's hard to talk in general, generalities, because I'm trying to think of some specifics, but like, especially related to emotions, because a lot of mental health stuff is all related to like our thoughts, emotions and behaviors.

And it's like, we're just never gonna get rid of. Even negative emotions like they're always going to be part of the human experience. I totally agree with that. Yeah. And that makes sense about, you know, especially very common experiences. I think, um, kind of what I've seen and I love that we're kind of, you know, Going around this topic, um, and kind of poking at it because it's an important one and I like that you said kind of the Idolism of you know healing because I think it we can fall into that But I think there is it is really interesting to see kind of some things seem to be able to be healed more than others And others maybe not as much and I think of like, you know stage four cancer It's obviously Maybe it's so far progressed that it would be really, really difficult.

Maybe in the future, we'll come up with a way to heal that, perhaps. I don't know. Um, but right now that would be maybe not possible to heal. Whereas, you know, breaking your, like I said before, you know, breaking your ankle or something. Um, we could get to a point where that's healed to almost as if it didn't occur to begin with.

But at the same time, I like what you're saying. When you have these experiences, these emotions that are just like a normal part of human life, we can't like chop those out, nor would we want to. And so I think that's, um, that's an important point that you made. And I'm glad that you made it as well. I, um, I also just wanted to touch on a little bit about, um, just the importance going back to what we were talking before of.

Being able to put your emotions and experiences into words, um, that seems to be so much of the point of therapy, like we were saying before, and I remember reading Dr. Susan David's book, Emotional Agility, um, really benefited from that book, and one of the things that she talks about is just how important it is to put your emotions into words, and she even talks about alexithymia, Which for anyone listening who doesn't know, it's like the inability to distinguish between and put into words your own emotions.

And that inability greatly handicaps you. It greatly holds you back from being able to manage or, you know, cope with things and even maybe to move beyond them to close that chapter in your life. And so. I think there's a lot of beauty to that. And so I do want to transition into kind of talking about therapy.

Like, how do you make therapy, um, effective? How do you make it productive? How do you make it fruitful? Um, or whatever word you would use to, you know, talk about it. So I'm curious there. Um, let's start with the negatives. Like, how do you guarantee that therapy like won't work? Yeah. I think the only time it won't work is if you don't show up, if you schedule an appointment and don't go.

And sometimes it might take scheduling a few times before you get the courage to go, because, I mean, you and me both have been in therapy, and it can be, like, not something you want to do. And I think... Showing up sometimes is all you can do and sometimes maybe you show up for a while and that's all you can do.

And then maybe eventually, hopefully you can start to open up and get comfortable and realize this like is worth investing in. This is worth being vulnerable for, um, and. It's worth trying to understand myself better so that I can move more towards healing. That's really good. Yeah. And so that's a great way to guarantee that therapy won't work if you don't show up.

Um, and I guess, I don't know if we want to go through these and do just the flip side of it, but I guess we're going through like what would contribute to making it helpful and healing. So we could, I guess, do both at the same time. So showing up, that's the first one. Um, what else would you say is an ingredient or factor in making therapy successful?

Successful? Yeah, um, I think, like, being honest and humble, like, just having the space where you can even just be honest, like, I don't know what's going on, or I don't know if this makes sense, but this is my best guess, like, something we'll say as therapists is like, Just give me your best guess. Like, try your best to describe this and maybe I can fill in some gaps based off of other people with similar experiences in my education.

Yeah, but I think Oh, another point on that is one of my favorite professors from grad school. Um, he said, and, um, he's not Catholic or anything. Um, but like awesome professor, he said, like, there's such humility that comes with therapy. Like it's a great act of humility, which is a virtue. It's the crown of all virtues.

So I think knowing that just the act of therapy, um, It's helping you grow in virtue and honesty, humility, and many others. Courage can help encourage you on the way. Um, yeah, I like that. Okay. So we have, so far we have just showing up. We have being honest. So telling the truth, um, we have being humble. So not being like egotistical or prideful, and then we have being courageous is another one that I wrote down.

Um, so to flip them on their head, if you don't show up, if you lie and you're not honest, if you are super prideful and arrogant and don't want to admit, you know. To a weakness or a wound and if you kind of shy back from going into the hard things, meaning you're not being courageous, you're being cowardly.

It won't work. So, um, but, but if you do those things, it will work. Another one I was thinking of, which you alluded to, um, and even said, I think is just the vulnerability component. And that goes along with every, the other ones that you said, but just like this willingness to kind of be open and to spill out your heart, just being like, yeah, Hey, this is where I'm at.

And I found such freedom there in my life, especially when it comes to therapy, but also with just mentors of mine who are able to, you know, kind of walk with me through really difficult things. I think we all fear being completely vulnerable with someone, um, because we think that if they saw how broken we were, they wouldn't love us.

They wouldn't want us. They wouldn't, you know, give us any sort of time and attention or love. And what I've found is if you Pick the right people to be vulnerable with. It actually makes them love and respect you more because it takes an incredible amount of courage, like you said, to be able to open up that much.

So, yeah, I'm curious what you've seen in your own life going to therapy, but also being a therapist when it comes to vulnerability. How important is that? Yeah, I love the topic of vulnerability and learned a lot from Brene Brown's book, Daring Greatly, um, on vulnerability. Um, I don't agree with everything she says, but I think she does a good job of like explaining it and explaining like how to do it well.

And I think like. What you described as like it being scary or fearful to share with someone. Um, I think a lot of that comes from like real experiences when you try and maybe what you're sharing is too uncomfortable for someone they don't understand or they haven't. Had experiences with that themselves, so they just really don't have the words or maybe there's judgment or things that might make you feel, feel really fearful to do that again, because it might have been painful therapy.

Hopefully, I mean, not every therapist is perfect. It's also. Humans doing it, but hopefully it can be that space where you can know that this professional is someone I can trust and someone who's not going to judge me and someone who is going to validate my experience and help me understand it further.

Um, and hopefully they're, I mean, they're usually an empathetic person. Otherwise they shouldn't have made it to grad school. So good. No, um. So much to say there, but I do want to touch on something where I think everyone kind of leaned in when you said it is that, um, therapists are human too, and not all therapists are created equal.

You said that before as well, and, you know, the first therapist you had was helpful, but it wasn't as impactful. And so I'm curious about that. Like, what do you do if you're in the, in the seat of being the one going to therapy, and maybe you're with a therapist who doesn't seem to be. Kind of working out for you, or you're not really, maybe they're not treating in the way that you would hope.

What would you advise for someone in that situation to do? Yeah, great question. Um, And I'll start with, I think, coming to therapy with an open mind is, is really important. Cause I, I've seen... Some people, and I kind of was this myself, like coming with an agenda or like being skeptical of therapy. And so quickly judging like, Oh, the service isn't for me or counseling can't work because I can't find the right therapist.

And I just encourage you to. Persevere and have an open mind and try a therapist and be willing to admit, like, if you feel like, do I feel comfortable sharing anything with this person and it might take a little bit of time to build trust because even though they are professional, yeah, they still are a human and it takes time to build trust, just like in any relationship, but usually a little quicker in this professional relationship.

So I think. Thank you. Being open minded and tuning into like your experience and if it's, if you're feeling like, okay, this isn't helpful anymore, um, that's a good time to be like, um, is it because I may be feeling more confident and don't need therapy right now or is it because I want to try another therapist, um, which is so real because sometimes it's even just the personality you don't jive well with and that might prohibit you from getting the therapy you need.

Yeah, I love that. There's so much freedom there. And I think that's good. And so in that situation, what's something maybe someone could say to that therapist that they're working with, um, instead of maybe just like ghosting them and never showing up again? Um, I'm curious, cause I think there's probably a right way to do that and a wrong way to do to kind of break the relationship or say like, Hey, this isn't really working for me.

So what would work well in that situation? If someone may be listening right now is finding themselves in a situation where they want to try a different therapist. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if there's necessarily a right or wrong way. Like often people do just ghost. I mean, not often, but sometimes. And, and like, we understand as therapists, but I think what might be courteous, um, cause it's still a relationship and like, as a therapist, like I care about all my clients.

Um, so like, if someone says like, Hey, like I'm, Okay. I don't need to schedule another appointment or like I'm going to cancel it. I'm not interested in continuing therapy at this time. Like that's, that's enough. And if you want to share more, feel free. And I think, yeah, I mean, if anyone ever says like kind things to me that it does, it means a lot, you know, cause I care about that person.

So yeah, I know that your words. Um, can mean a lot to a therapist. Um, but also if you feel like this wasn't a good experience and I just want it to be done, um, like just being direct and short and clear is enough. I'd say, okay, that's good advice. Yeah. I like that. And I've had therapists in the past where just, yeah, there was something off, like we weren't clicking.

Um, so had to move on, uh, at the same time. There was a therapist. I remember when I was at Franciscan, I was working with him there. And yeah, it took me maybe like nine months to like a year. I did a year and a half of therapy when I was at Franciscan. Um, and in college for anyone doesn't know Franciscan University, but basically I, um, yeah, it took me probably like a year or so to really get to like the deep stuff, which probably prideful.

But, uh, But it took me that long. So I think sometimes, like you were saying before, it could just mean you haven't progressed to that point yet, or you're not maybe willing to take that risk and kind of open up and be, be more vulnerable than maybe you have been in the past, um, because you're scared. And I totally get being scared.

I mean, I know you get that too. Yeah. And I think part of it totally could be that, but it could also just be like therapy can kind of be this. Almost new language of like talking about my feelings and maybe I've never done that before Maybe I haven't even tuned into what I am feeling like sometimes we go through life.

Just thinking okay I get angry sad and happy and I don't even have words for other emotions and there's so many so like a lot of A lot of where people start that I've seen is like just tuning into emotions and thoughts and getting comfortable with that habit so that I can then know how to meet my needs and know what I need to do and, um, know if I'm engaging in unhelpful or true thoughts and become more aware of that.

And also like. This is kind of back to a point you had earlier, um, but when we're able to develop that language to describe ourself to, it then gives us the language to tell those people we know and love and trust and, and to the more you know someone, the more you can love them. So it really gives people the opportunity to love you better when you're able to articulate what's going on better.

No, I love that. That's such an excellent point. Going back to the, um, yeah, this whole idea of like, how do you make therapy successful or sabotage it on the flip side is, um, the homework, like often therapy sessions will end with something you need to do or think about, right? And so I think it's obviously very important to, to do that homework, but I'm curious if you'd talk a little bit more about that and if there's any other things you think that make therapy fruitful, successful or not.

Yeah, I like just the two terms of like implement and invest. So I think checking like your level of investment, like am I making time not just for my hour long or 50 minute therapy session? Like, am I also making time to process and learn healthy coping and have space if I need it to deal with what I'm dealing with?

Um, and then, and am I making that a priority? So am I invested one? And then two, am I implementing it? Cause like, you're not going to get much out of it if you're just like listening in the therapy session, but not implementing what you're talking about. Like you might be in a therapy a long time before it gets effective.

So I think, um, and implementing doesn't have to take a lot of time. It's just for, yeah. Like that tuning into my emotions and thoughts and. Those needs and, um, other there's a whole I could go off on on all of that. Um, I think that and then, yeah, something else I just wanted to mention was, um, support. So whether that's from friends, like, I think the more you can.

Like, it's so great that you're opening up to someone, like your therapist, but it's even better if you could start also opening up more to friends and, and maybe support groups, like, depending on what you're struggling with, those might be good. Um, yeah, because for different struggles, sometimes your friends don't really understand and you might need a support group of other people who do understand what you're going through to really not feel alone.

And it's Crazy how, if people have support, how much more efficient therapy is, like how much more quickly the healing process goes. Talk about that a little bit more. That's fascinating. I love everything that you said. I totally agree with that. But yeah, um, about it being quicker and I don't know if easier would be a word we'd throw in there.

Maybe not. But, um, quicker. Yeah. I'm really curious about that. Yeah, and. This is kind of my own theory, so take it with a grain of salt, but, um, This isn't a PhD dissertation. No, no, no. Um, but I think, like, the goal of therapy is to teach you skills for your own life, so you don't need a therapist. And, not that you won't never need it again, but, like, it's a tool.

Like, the point isn't that you're in therapy the rest of your life, but, like, I really see it as, Something you need, and then you learn and then you don't need. Um, and I think a huge part of that is being able to communicate your emotional needs with friends and family and other supports. And once you're able to do that, like.

Your need for a therapist, depending on what you're struggling with, could decrease and, and then, like, if you're having a bad day, like, you have that healthy coping of, like, I can call this friend and they can speak truth into maybe my thought spiral or my overthinking and it, it really gives, yeah, just that opportunity for love and truth to be spoken and for you to know you're not alone, like, even that, knowing you're not alone can alleviate so much Weight of mental health struggles.

Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, there's so many bad things that happen when we're isolated as humans. I mean, it's people, a lot of people have talked about this, but it's so interesting that one of the worst punishments that you can enter if you're in prison is solitary confinement because there's.

Basically, a misery may be no greater than that. And I know all the introverts are like, maybe that wouldn't be so bad. It's like, no, that would be miserable, even if you're an introvert. Um, but wow, so many good things, Claire. Um, just to kind of summarize the last few points that we talked about is like, be open minded going into therapy of maybe trying different things.

Um, if you want to guarantee it won't work, be close minded, be, you know, hardheaded. Um, also. Yeah, implement, uh, like you said, and invest, and the way I threw it out there was like do, do the homework, do the work that comes with the therapy, not just the therapy itself, um, and if you don't do that, if you just go and talk and never put it into action, you can be guaranteed that it won't work.

And then you said, uh, also just, That that support as is huge. So if you don't have a support system, if you don't have friends, if you don't have maybe family members who can walk with your mentors as well, then you can guarantee that it won't work. But if you do, it's going to, like you said, the healing is going to happen faster.

Uh, which is really beautiful and really encouraging as well. The other one I would just add here, picking up on something you said is kind of building in some, you talked about prioritizing and I think in order to prioritize, you need to build some cushion into your life, which I'm the worst at. So I'm talking to myself and you guys all get to listen.

But, um, but it can be so easy to, especially if you're kind of like this type A, like overachiever type to just like, kind of pack your day and your life with like, I'm going from this thing to this thing to this thing and doing this task and working on this project. And it's like, cool, you know, you're going to wake up at the end of life and you're going to be like, man, I kind of.

Destroyed myself. That's not the purpose of life is just to be productive. And so I think if we want to become, um, more human, become more virtuous, become, um, more loving and live like richer, happier lives, it's really important not to have, um, ours. schedules, like constantly booked, like we need some of that cushion or margin, um, to give us the ability to, you know, do the homework from therapy or just to enjoy like beautiful experiences and do those things that really give us life.

And I think we, especially as Americans, maybe everyone else listening, who's not in the States, like is better at this. I know Europeans listening, like you guys are way better at this than we are. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I've, I've noticed that that's necessary as well. Awesome. Yeah. And I just have a few thoughts about what you said.

One is, I, this is just like a little thing and also from my supervisor at Franciscan, but he didn't like to use the word homework. Um, and I've kind of adopted that from him instead. I'll use challenge and I like it. Yeah. I like it because Like, I always tell people, I'm not grading you. If you don't want to do something, you don't find that you do it, let's try something else because we really want it to be something you can implement and use in your life, like not just now, but like long term.

So like, like something I often use is a common cognitive behavioral therapy tool called thought records. Super simple, but super helpful. I can Talk all about that. But, um, sometimes people don't do it and don't like it. And I'm like, great, like, just be honest and we'll try something else. Cause there are other strategies, but I like the word challenge because really what we're trying to do is just grow into more, into more wholeness, into more of who God made you to be into more of freedom and peace.

Um, so challenges is what helps us grow. Beautiful. No, I like that. And that's a way better way to say it, especially with, when you have the grading aspect, that's not, not super helpful. So I, I totally agree. Thanks for clarifying that. I really appreciate it. Um, the thought record thing, would you explain that a little bit?

Oh yeah, sure. Oh man, I could talk a whole podcast about this. Um, so it's basically a short structured journal entry. Um, And like the one I, if you googled it, you'd find a bunch of different templates because it really is a very common tool in cognitive behavioral therapy. Um, but the one I like is just simple, like from therapistaid.

com or org or whatever. And it just has... Um, you write down the situation, thought, emotion, behavior, and then an alternative thought. And I tell people like a good time to do a thought record is if you notice like I'm overthinking or I'm caught in a thought spiral or, or I feel a big emotion, like I feel super anxious.

Maybe like I even feel it in my body. Like my, my chest is tight. My stomach's churning. Um, Like those are kind of red flags of like, this is a good time to do a thought record and kind of, and there's so many benefits. Like I really could talk a lot about it, but just to be brief, like one is it can stop like the thought spiral and be that space to just reflect before you go down that rabbit hole, which can.

Which in cognitive behavioral therapy, like through evidence based research, they've concluded that our thoughts and emotions are congruent. So that means that, um, if I can stop unhelpful or untrue thoughts, that impacts my emotion and my mood. So I can change my mood by becoming more aware of my thoughts and not engaging as much in unhelpful or untrue thoughts.

And a thought record is a tool to do that. Um, and, and then. Just one final note on that is, um, doing it also can be really good content to bring to therapy because sometimes for some people it's harder to like remember what thoughts or remember or even articulate like I had a really hard day and I don't even know I don't have the language but actually I wrote it down and sometimes for internal processors it's actually really helpful and I've seen it like help not only you know Moment thoughts like we call them automatic thoughts.

So those are like the first layer of thoughts and cognitive behavioral therapy and then there's beneath. Those are like irrational beliefs, which are is exactly what it sounds like. It's irrational. Not true, but I really believe it sounds so good. Like, and that's usually. Like under that is core belief.

So it's basically irrational beliefs. I've had my whole life, usually from wounds and because we, and we all have them because we live in an imperfect world. Um, so thought records can help you change automatic thoughts that you, so that you can then change emotions. And behaviors related to it, but it can also help you detect irrational beliefs.

So that you can bring that to your therapy session and further unpack what's under this, like what layers of wounds do I have that make me believe this thing that I know isn't true? So good. No, I really like that. Both, um, the thought record and. You know what you just mentioned to the different layers of thoughts and beliefs.

That's super helpful. Super good. And it's crazy how if you, there's a lot of people that talk about beliefs that I think it kind of becomes this thing that people tone out to a bit. Um, but I think it is, it's so, so important because if you bust just like one of those untrue beliefs, it can totally change the way that you approach life.

Um, to the point where I've seen people, I remember talking with a friend who, It's a physical therapist and he, you know, broke into running his own business, like, which is not an easy thing to do being an entrepreneur. And, um, there were certain beliefs that he had, which sounds kind of against that kind of superficial hokey, but it's not when you see it in action that once he kind of addressed those and be like, man, I, you know, always thought this way about like me and running a business.

And once he was able to break through that, his business started like growing and he started. To be able to succeed in the whole entrepreneurial thing, which is really, really beautiful. So there are concrete examples. It's not just some of this, you know, again, like vague thing that you just swirl your head around all the time.

And I'm not saying you're saying that, but I think a lot of times when people hear us talking about this, they think that that's it. No, it's like, it can be very concrete in your own life if you bust those, you know, kind of untrue beliefs. Absolutely. And we could talk a lot more about that too. Um, yeah, I just, I love cognitive behavioral therapy and it's, it's what helped me and what I really just find to be so impactful with my clients.

I like that. Yeah. And I think sometimes it gets a bad rap. Um, people maybe reduce it to just like thought. Uh, talk therapy, um, but I think it, yeah, from what you're sharing now, there's so much more to it as well. And I have benefited from it too. I've benefited from other therapy models as well, but um, I have benefited from, uh, CBT.

So thank you, um, for, for going through all of that. Any final items that you wanted to touch on when it comes to how to make, uh, therapy fruitful? Uh, back to when you were summarizing it, um, you had summarized like support helps. Um, yeah, just expedite the process. Um, and I just wanted to add that, like, if you don't have support, that's okay.

Like, you can work with your therapist on how can I get creative and build my support. And sometimes that's a great place to start. Um, and you've already come to therapy, so you have that support. And, and building it can make a huge. different. So that's a lot of what we do often in therapy, too, is if people don't have good supports or if they're not opening up to their good supports and don't feel comfortable sharing, it's like, how can we work to get there?

Really good. And I think a lot of people. might be afraid to that they would maybe develop some unhealthy dependency on people in their lives. But that's the beauty of what you just said. It's like, you can actually learn how to have like an appropriate, like interdependent relationship. That's not over relying on that person on the other end.

And it can be really life giving on both ends, which is really beautiful. And I've seen that and I've lived that and it's, it's, it can be so good. So I love that you said that. And the only other thing that came to related to the first point of just showing up is starting. I think maybe of showing up as like the ongoing effort, whereas I think starting is like turning the key to, you know, get the engine going.

And that I think is probably the hardest part, in my opinion, Claire, like there's so many barriers that we have in our minds when it comes to therapy, where there's so many things that we maybe even just like barriers that we create ourselves because for one reason or another, we don't want to go there.

Um, but man, if you could just get started, if you can just like. Experiment. Um, I think that is really, really helpful and that's one of the ways I trick myself into doing things often is, uh, and I'm curious if you have any tips for this too, but I'll, I'll just trick myself into thinking like, oh, you know what, um, I'm just gonna kind of put on this like experimenters hat or.

lab coat and just be like, you know, I'm just gonna try it. I'm going to do one time and see how that goes. And then I'll go from there. Um, and, and I've noticed that that will get me moving way more than if I think of the totality of it because it feels too heavy and too big. Um, but I can, you know, hone in on the one little piece that just very next step and not really think about the overall effort.

At least that's been helpful for me. So curious about, uh, for you, like what. tips or hacks you have about just getting started. Yeah. I mean, I love what you just said. And actually that's the language my supervisor now uses. He's like, let's try an experiment. And I think too, like we talk a lot about overwhelm, like I feel overwhelmed and like, what do I do with that?

Cause it feels like I don't know what to do with that. And the, the really. I think the way to combat it is one step at a time, because if it's super overwhelming, if I start taking steps, just start, start experimenting pretty soon, it's going to be less overwhelming, but it's that like, okay, it feels overwhelming.

Maybe there's anxiety. So I avoid it. That's going to make it grow because you're not doing the things you need to do to make it decrease. Um, and I also think on your point that it's just, it's such a good. Outlook to like be, um, willing to not be great at things like to just experiment and try new things.

Like how much more full can your life be if you're willing to get out of your comfort zone? Boom. So good. And I, um, I don't know if this is true, but I call that like willingness to suck, like just being really willing to be like, Hey, you know, I'm going to look. Ridiculous. And this kind of maybe fits under the point of humility, but I'm going to look ridiculous.

I'm going to sound ridiculous. People might even make fun of me or judge me, but I'm just willing to be bad at this to start. And if you're willing to go through that discomfort, what I've realized in life, whether it's in like, Business or fitness or anything, managing your money, um, you're going to get further than the people who are criticizing you.

Not that it's a competition. I'm not like saying you want to beat everyone down or anything like that, but those opinions are often the things that I think hold us back. And so I think if you grow that muscle of just, Hey, I'm not going to be good at this right away. I'm not going to be a pro. How, how would I be a pro at this?

I'm starting out fresh. Like who can expect that? And I think if you take that, um, mindset, I guess, into, into it, I think you can get way, way further faster than if you kind of think about it forever and never actually. Take the first step. Absolutely. And I love what you're saying. Cause I have that same similar mindset and have to remind myself to have that mindset.

Like I have a Rocky Balboa quote of like, you ain't gonna have a life until you start believing in yourself. Um, and then another good quote, um, actually from Bernays Brown. Brené Brown's book, Daring Greatly, is Theodore Roosevelt's quote, and it's kind of longer, but it's about the man in the arena, and it's like, the one in it, like, getting bloody, like, doing it, like, there's so much more respect for him, even if he fails, than someone who doesn't try.

Love that. I absolutely love that quote and yeah, so good. So maybe we'll attach this to this episode somehow. We'll have to, might even have to figure that out. But Claire, I know we're almost out of time here. Any final thoughts or anything you'd add about making therapy fruitful? Yeah, maybe I'll just end with some Bible verses that kind of I bring up a lot in therapy.

Um, so even if you're not, um, religious, like just, I would just encourage you to have an open mind. But, um, yeah, kind of the top three ones that I bring up a lot are 1 John 11, which is God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. And I think I love this because it's just like, there's so much.

Beauty that comes when you bring things to the light, and that's where the healing begins. Like you can't, a doctor can't heal anything, heal something that he can't see or that you're not showing him, you're not presenting him. So I think similar with like mental health, like just bringing it to the light, like, Ooh, that's a huge first step.

Um, and then the next one is Romans 8, 28 in. In all things, God works for the good of those who love him, which I think just, oh, I love this because Like, it just validates that no matter what you've done, um, he can make it good. And like, like my story, like, he's transfigured it for beauty, and your story, like, look at what you're doing with your story, and, and anyone listening, like, he wants to bring whatever you've done.

And always like, if you come back to him, if you come back to truth, um, it can be used for good. And like the, the saying healed people, heal people. Um, so there's just so much hope in that, I think. And then the last one is 2 just my powers made perfect in weakness and that's God's power. So just it's in our brokenness that he can work the most.

So like our brokenness.

Um, but yeah, those are, uh, kind of my top three Bible verses I'd say. Beautiful. Well, thanks for sharing all that and yeah, definitely moving. And I love that quote, you know, heal people, heal people. That's super, super good. Um, man, Claire, thank you so much for coming on the show. Um, if people want to do therapy with you, I know you're in Colorado, um, how do they find you online?

How do they start that process? Yes, so you can call our main office at St. Raphael's and request me. That'd be great. I have openings. Love, would love to work with you. Um, find it such a joy. Um, and then we also have, um, our website, um, Which I'm not going to remember, but maybe we can put in the show notes.

I think it's like straphaelcounseling. com. Um, and you can look up all our therapists. We have really a really solid team of therapists. So if I'm not like the right personality for you, I, I'm pretty sure there could be someone on our team that is beautiful. I love that. And then I'd love for you just in closing to speak to.

All of our listeners who come from broken families, what maybe final piece of encouragement or advice would you give to them, especially if they just feel stuck and so broken because of all the trauma and the brokenness in their families? Yeah. Wow. I mean, I really love your book. And I think like them just having the resources you've provided can really validate a lot of probably the experiences they have.

Um, I know I actually have a few. Clients reading your book and they've expressed that and I think just yeah, like the title of your book It's not your fault and and starting there like I think you really got to the heart of the issue because it allows them allow someone to Yeah, really delve into like, okay, this did affect me and this really maybe deeply affected me because Yeah, for so many reasons that we could go into but um, yeah, I think just knowing there's hope there's healing And and taking advantage of the resources out there that like you have provided and therapy And knowing that that there's there's just so much hope.

Yeah

Again, if you're in Colorado, you can find Claire and the other therapists at her practice by going to strafeelcounseling. com or just clicking the link in the show notes. On that page, actually, if you click appointments, you can actually get a free, I think it's a 50 minute consult for free, which is awesome.

And so my apologies if in the future that changes after this recording, but for now you can get a free consult if you go to that page. And to recap this episode, I just want to go through those 10 tips again. Uh, the first is to just show up, right? Just show up to put in the work. If you don't show up, you don't put in the work, you're guaranteed to fail.

The next thing is to be honest and vulnerable. If you're closed off, if you're not honest, if you lie, if you deceive, you're not going to get much out of therapy. It's not going to work for you. Number three is be humble. Be humble. If you're arrogant and prideful and egotistical, therapy is not going to work for you.

You need to go and be honest that, you know, life isn't the way you want it to be. You feel broken and you need help. Number four is be courageous. Like therapy is hard. It takes courage, but I love this quote. It, you know, courage is not the absence of fear. It's acting in spite of your fear. And so be courageous.

It's not a place to be cowardly. Uh, if you want to, you know, Shrink back from challenges. Therapy is not for you, but if you're ready to step up, uh, and to go at it and know that you'll have the support of the therapist, you're not, you don't have to like, you know, grow all this bravery on your own, but if you go at it, be courageous, put in the hard work, you're going to see benefits from it.

So that's number four. Five is to be open minded. You might be challenged in ways that you never thought you might be challenged to, you know, address parts of your past or your woundedness in a way that you never thought you might. Need to or be able to but be open minded and you'd be surprised at how much you're capable of.

That's number five. Six is implement and invest in the challenges. So remember we said we're not gonna call it homework, but we're gonna call it challenges. Those challenges are really the key to making therapy effective. Number seven is build cushion into your life. Like we need some cushion in our lives, which I'm horrible at but I'm gonna work on to be able to to grow, to grow personally, to build virtue, to heal.

Our woundedness, our brokenness, um, be able to move on in life because if our schedules are packed and our to do lists are super long and we're always focused on that, we're not going to do that hard work that often takes a lot of energy, a lot of emotional focus in order to heal. And so number eight is, uh, build support around you.

Build support around it. You can't do it alone. Like if you want to guarantee failure, you know, do it alone. Um, number nine is start as an experiment, start as an experiment. It can be so intimidating to do everything at once. And so don't do that. Just start as an experiment, do a little bit at once, you know, go to one session.

Do the free consult. See how it goes. Maybe it doesn't work for you. I don't know. Um, but then, you know, every time just think of it as a little bit of an experiment, a little bit of a bet and go from there. Number 10 is be willing to suck or be bad at it. That's so important with anything in life. You're not going to attain any sort of a skill unless you're willing to not be great at the skill when you start, like who is exceptional.

Very few people are really great and I'm any skill when they just start. And so again, show up is number one, two is be honest and vulnerable. Three is be humble. Four, be courageous, five, be open minded, six, uh, implement and invest in the challenges, seven, build cushion into your life, eight, um, build support around you, don't do it alone, uh, nine, start as an experiment, and ten, be willing to suck or be bad.

At it also, I absolutely love the quote that Claire mentioned from Teddy Roosevelt, uh, the man in the arena, and I wanted to share that in a second. But first, if you're not in Colorado and you still want a counselor, a spiritual director, a coach, a mentor, uh, we can help. We know how difficult and time consuming that can be, but thankfully here at Restored, we're building a resource for you.

We're building a network of counselors.

It's just going to save you time and you're going to have confidence that, you know, you're finding someone who's competent, who's professional. And so how do you get on the wait list? Just go to restored ministry. com slash coaching and restored ministry. com slash coaching, or just click on the link in the show notes, fill out the form on that page.

And then once we find someone for you, then we'll connect you with them again, go to restored ministry. com slash coaching, or just click on the link in the show notes. And here's the quote from Teddy Roosevelt, titled The Man in the Arena. It goes like this. It is not the critic who counts. Not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or the doer of deeds could have done them better.

The credit belongs to the man who counts. Who is actually in the arena. Whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood. Who strives valiantly. Who errs. Who comes short again and again. Because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. But who does actually Strive to do the deeds who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows in the end, the triumph of high achievement and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring.

Greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat So good with that that wraps up this episode if you know someone who's struggling Because of their parents divorce or their broken family share this episode with them seriously feel free to take like 30 seconds now To message them if you want and in closing always remember you are not alone We're here to help you feel whole again and break that cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life, and keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#107: Forgiving Someone Who’s Hurt You | John O’Brien

When trauma occurs, it causes you to ask big questions. That’s where my guest found himself after being brutally attacked, almost to the point of death, by people he was trying to help. 

In this episode, you’ll hear the story of the attack, plus he answers:

• Has forgiveness been difficult for you?

• Why forgive? What are the benefits? What happens if we don’t forgive?

• How do you forgive someone who has hurt you?

Take the podcast survey

Links & Resources

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• John O’Brein

  • Aquinas Forum

  • john@aquinasforum.org

• #058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When trauma happens, whether it's someone dying or your family falling apart or any other type, it causes you to ask big questions. And that's where my guest found himself after being brutally attacked almost to the point of death by people that he was trying to help. In this episode, you'll hear him share that story of the attack.

Plus he answers questions like, how has the attack affected you over the years? Has forgiveness been difficult for you? Why forgive? What are the benefits? What happens if we don't forgive? And how do you forgive someone who has hurt you? Intense story, but good content. Keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parent's divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. This is episode 107. We're thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast so helpful and even healing.

We've heard lots of feedback. One listener said, amazing five stars been looking for a podcast like this, finally found one that has helped me more. Then you'll ever know. Thank you. Another said, Surprisingly helpful, not what I expected. Five stars. They went on to say, I've always said that I'm okay. That what happened couldn't have changed who I was.

Of course it changed me. I still run away from many topics related to divorce, but listening to this podcast isn't like hearing from a bunch of psychologists tell me all the ways I'm really okay. It's much more helpful to hear that this is not okay, and it will never be okay. Lots more reviews like that that we don't have time to share right now, but we will in the future.

Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been so helpful. We do it for you. If you've ever had an idea, guest, topic, or any other advice to make this podcast better, we'd love to hear from you. To offer your advice, you can just take our podcast survey. On it, we ask questions like, how would you rate the podcast?

Of the options listed, why do you listen? Is the podcast length too long, too short, or just right? Should we add video? Should we change the format of the show? And other questions that'll guide you in giving your advice, which we really value. It does take five to ten minutes to complete it. But if you've benefited from this podcast, think of it as a way to help us in return.

It'll also come back to benefit you in two ways. One, it'll make the show even better for you. And two, if you fill it out by November 15th, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card. And so to offer your advice, it's really easy. Just go to restoredministry. com. Again, restored ministry, ministry is singular dot com slash survey.

Okay. Just answer the questions there, submit the form again, go to restored ministry.

My guest today is John O'Brien. John is the founder and executive director of the Aquinas Forum, a nonprofit organization based in Denver, Colorado, for faith formation and Catholic studies. He holds a bachelor's degree and master's degree in theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville and has taught faith formation to every age level.

Beginning as a high school theology and humanities teacher, he later became the director of faith formation for a flourishing parish in Denver, Colorado. During his tenure as a parish director of formation, part of his role included directing over 240 young adults in 25 small groups. He also started a monthly candlelight mass that continues nine years later and was a starting point for over 50 marriages, if you can believe that.

Uh, to help people grow in faith and develop a Catholic vision of life is the hallmark of all of his work. So obviously in this episode we talk about God, we talk about faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while knows that this podcast is not a strictly religious show.

And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit from this episode. With that, here's my conversation with John.

John, welcome to the show. So good to have you, man. Great to be here, Joey. I've been looking forward to this and let's dive right in. So, years ago you went through a very traumatic event. Yep. And I, I don't want to tell the story. I want you to tell the story. What happened there? Well, there's a lot to be said, but I just completed graduate school and got the master's in theology and wanted to begin a career in teaching at some point, but For the, for the present time.

I wanted to, uh, experience this opportunity that was presented to me. A few of my college friends were going out to a ranch in northwest Wyoming. It sounded really cool. I'd been, you know, just in the classroom forever. I was age 24. Lots of paper, lots of pens, computers, like, oh man, you spent some time in the west.

That sounds good. Mm-hmm. , the thing is, it was delinquent youth ranch and so that, that was a bit of a twist, but that sounded cool too 'cause I just wanted to go and help be a counselor. You know, just be with the kids, take care of them. Yeah, that's heroic. That's well, you know, it felt right, felt right for the time and kind of grow up experiencing maturity.

And when I got out there, though, I'm going to have to kind of keep this simple, I think, for the sake of our timing for the podcast, but you'll get the important elements. I'd only been there for two weeks. Again, it was a delinquent youth ranch. So the kids that were there were used to kind of relatively small crime.

Um, But, but some bigger, some, uh, some violence, some just kind of overdrinking, problematic child, terrible relationship with the parents. So the parents at some point, because the children are out of control, they'd have to, uh, force them to pack up and go to the ranch. Wow. Okay. So the kids didn't want to be there and one night, just two weeks into the, to my time at the ranch, they caught wind.

I was going to be the only counselor there that night. There were nine boys, middle teens, and the manager approved it. I didn't know what was going on cause I'd only been there for two weeks, but the manager approved it. I was the only guy there. Treat everything as a normal day. Uh, say a rosary before the campfire about 10 PM, put them down to sleep in their tent, all under the Wyoming high desert.

Wow. Beautiful area. So I put him in the tent, I get him in my sleeping bag, bed roll, not in the tent, just like under the stars, see the Milky Way, it's gorgeous, I was in a great mood, like I was looking forward to being out there for a year. One week later I wake up in the hospital, the intensive care unit.

Billings, Montana, and what happened was they waited until I fell asleep about 10 PM and then about 1130 They said we're gonna go through with the with with what we had planned So they had three options. The first one was to tie me up with a rope and their object is very simple I had a duffel bag next to me.

The truck keys were in the bag. So but I was in I was in the way So they're like, well, let's think of a way to get to take care of. Mr. Obi is what they called me Rob Ryan. And they said, well, let's think of a way we can take care of Mr. Obi and then take the keys of the truck and go. Wow. First option was tying me up with a rope, but they said, well, he's, he's, he's bigger than us.

And so if, if we get into trouble, that's not going to be good. Yeah. You're, you're for everyone who doesn't know what John looks like. He's a tall, strong dude. So yeah. Can't think of a joke. So I have to just kind of a lame guy But and so that was the first option just tie me up. They said that that there could be problems The second option was they could stab me, but they said well, that's too violent Then the third option they said and I had argued this is just as violent but take garden shovels try to knock me out Wow, so that's what they did They snuck out of the truck, or excuse me, they snuck out of the tent about 1130.

They picked up garden shovels that were nearby, um, we were doing some work earlier in the afternoon. We used the shovels for it. They pick up the shovels, they count to three, they've surrounded me, I'm asleep. And they pound my head and for eight to 10 hits, because there were five other boys right there during the, this whole scene, we have witness testimony, like minute to minute, you know?

And so one of the boys said, I think I heard eight to 10 hits. He told the detective and it sounded like, uh, it sounded like aluminum, an aluminum bat hitting rocks. And so that was me. Did you wake up through that? I did wake up, but I don't have any memory of it, so I didn't lose any consciousness during this experience, but I was knocked into shock, so I don't remember it.

Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. Seriously. Wow. So anyways, I'm on the sleeping bag, uh, kind of left for dead. One of the boys, uh, goes back to the other boys that were in the tent and said, you know, get out of here. Let's go hop in the truck. And they're all scared for the life, of course. So they do it. One boy not involved in the assault puts on his cowboy boots.

And runs like hell to the staff house. He saved my life. Wow. If it wasn't for him, if he would have thought more about his own safety than me, I would be in the great beyond. Wow. As you call it, Joey. The great beyond. So he runs, he gets help, but before they take off, this, this episode really haunted me in the first few years.

I was struggling with things. Um, he comes back from the truck just to kind of make sure, I don't know, I'm, uh, not dangerous for their plot. And I'm kind of sitting up in my sleeping bag. Yeah, bloodied and just just a wreck because the the assault immediately caused a skull fracture hand fracture a Subdural hematoma or a blood clot started forming on the brain and so I was out of it Well, he kneels down because I'm sitting on my bedroll just kind of dazed The other boy said and he he bends down kind of looks at my face looks my eyes And then takes a step back and just kicks me.

Bad scene. It's interesting. I've never gotten emotional about that scene. I have a little bit of a PhD, Joey, in disassociation. Fair enough. So, so that happens. And of course I'm, I'm out. They hop in the truck, they take off. They're caught later that night, right? By the Wyoming highway patrol. I'll talk very, very soon here about kind of their, what happened to them, but.

So I'm in the sleeping bag, about a half an hour later, uh, staff comes and gets help, uh, uh, rather. A half an hour later, staff comes, loads me up in a truck because they said the ambulance was not going to know where it is. Probably true. They take me by ambulance to a huge road in front of the ranch. An ambulance comes.

Then I'm airlifted to Billings, Montana. They call my mom. I'm airlifted to Billings, Montana, where there was a neurosurgeon in charge and just trying to gauge how I'm going to do. He calls my mom and dad and, uh, you know, they say, of course, talk to whatever you need to do. When he operates, he takes a three by three inch piece of skull out.

He puts it in the freezer to where it was going to be left for five months just to keep it safe as my, as my brain, right? Wow. As my brain swells down and as my brain tries to heal. And so they put me under a medical coma. I wake up five days later. Definitely brain injury. If, if for anyone who's experienced brain injury, they know, well, there's all sorts of stuff that can happen.

But one of the things is. You're, you really kind of start over at a young age. So just, I don't know if you're going to want to call it. Lack of focus, just, just, you're super, super young and on medicine. And so it was a time as a ramp up. I recovered for one year. I went home after two weeks and not in the hospital.

Wow. Um, I go home, started speech therapy, started physical therapy, had to walk on, uh, you know, the treadmills and take care of everything. And I was brain injured. So there's a little bit like. You're drunk. And so I'd say all sorts of inappropriate things, acute nurses and such, hopefully made him at least laugh.

And so recovered for a year and that, that was the physical part. And then the psychological part was much longer, but that's the basics. Uh, the boys were, they went to jail for a couple of years and uh, you know, got out and I know some of, some of them have had trouble, uh, who, you know, participate in the assault.

Those four boys, some of them continue to have trouble with the law. Uh, I'm hoping. A couple others are doing better. That's so good of you to say that. I know that must have taken a while for you to just want the best for them or maybe not. Maybe you're more heroic and virtuous than I am, but my goodness, man, that is, uh, that is intense.

Yeah. So many questions. Uh, I guess kind of fast forwarding a little bit more to what were the effects that followed you through that? You said there were a lot of psychological, I know the physical and sure mental and all that stuff. So just if you would outline it for us, how that affected you in the years that followed.

Yeah, well, you could think of it just as a, this is a way you should talk about it just as a tornado of problems because you had two things going on. You had, uh, the trauma, yes, right. How crazy that story was and how difficult and kind of the mystery of good and evil, which is very often accompanies trauma and that was a difficult thing.

But then on the other hand, I had the, the neuro. Psychological effects, or perhaps for the podcast, I should say, I had the physiological effects of the brain injury, which were very difficult. You're concretely irritability, sleep conditions, depression, kind of a OCD, kind of an obsessive mind about all sorts of things.

It felt like kind of my poor brain, if you will, is just like on fire. Whereas before it just kind of felt more healthy functioning and active, right? But now it's on fire. So any little thing, and for people who have experienced this, they know exactly what I'm talking about. So I had that. And then let's just throw in some disassociation depersonalization where you literally feel, it's kind of like you feel dizzy, but you're living in your daily life, but you, you feel like you're not real.

Or you feel like life's not real or you feel like every day is episodic. So I, I experienced about 10 years, my friend, just to, just to mention this in particular, I experienced 10, 10 years at least of, uh, cause it's been 18 years now experienced 18 years of deep, strong depersonalization. Of the gosh, I know I'm real, but it kind of doesn't even feel like that or the outside world.

And it kind of feels like you're like a, but 10, 000 miles above your head. It's very odd. Like an out of body experience. That's right. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

And that's just to mention the physiological. That's not the psychological, uh, well specifically that's not a whole lot of the psychological of trauma. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Forgiveness. Hope. Meaning all those things 100 percent and I know we're gonna hone in on that because there's so many ways we could take this conversation, but Oh on the OCD bet.

Yeah, that is such a Understated problem that a lot of people deal with I know I've went through my bouts of dealing with it and no people Who, uh, who deal with it. It's so debilitating. So that alone is enough. But one of the things that strikes me is your, from your story is that there's just so much, like you said, a tornado or an avalanche is another way to say it.

It's just like, it's just over overwhelming. So it's just amazing that you're standing here today. Like there's so many people I think would be tempted to just give up. Mm-hmm. . And so it's, it's beautiful that you're here and you've pushed through all that and yeah. You've become like an inspiration for so many people too.

So I wanna shift to forgiveness. Yes. Everyone listening here, you know, has been hurt in some way, and they might see some value in forgiveness. They might wanna forgive, but they struggle. They struggle to forgive for any number of reasons. Has forgiveness been difficult for you? Uh, yes and no. I think yes, in the sense that, you know, I, I knew Joey when I went out there for, to be a counselor at the ranch.

I knew they were. Delinquent youth, they, they were in a bad place in life and likely they were in a bad place of life because of decisions that at least to some degree were based on unjust things that happened to them to both hand, right? All of this is contextualized by both hand. If you're looking for an extreme or just a simple answer in any of this, uh, perhaps, you know, well, I don't want to talk to you.

Because reality, one famous Jesuit said, reality is like a strong red wine. It's not for children. There's a lot to it. So, it's nuanced. It's not the black and white that is so often made out to be, especially in like our media. Um, or anywhere in the world really. It's like, it's not, it's colorful. It's like detailed.

It's nuanced. So yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Absolutely. And so the forgiveness of the boys, believe it or not, was much easier than other aspects of forgiveness because I knew, you know, I knew they're in a bad place. I didn't know they were going to do that of course, but they simply wanted to be free.

They were used to a drug problem. Um, I think two of them, it came out, we're, we're pining for drugs at the time and In, in the mystery of what can only be called evil. This is what happens that when, you know, there's something in between me and my addictive, uh, object or whatever that might be. It's like, it's not personal, bro.

I have to take you out cause I need this. The object of my addiction, uh, the object of my vice, whatever that might be. And so I was just taken out. And so I did pray, but, and I think there's perhaps a grace in this, but I, um, I did, I did forgive them, completely forgive them. And I do still. The issue of forgiveness that I had, actually, I had more of an issue when it comes to forgiveness with people who were deeply faith based, like I was going out there Catholic.

And yet after this assault, especially people associated with the ranch who knew this could mean bad stuff legally, it's like they kind of took off their faith hat and put on their I want to protect my money hat and you talk about getting fired up for being an anger and resentment, forgiveness. Really struggled with big time and, and that, that took years that took years because I, I didn't know what to do with that here.

I was suffering so much, honestly, because of the brain injury and then the trauma and you know, I was a mess and yet I did start full time work less than a year after full time campus minister, full time teacher, prep school out in Southern California and for a brain injury victim like that to start full time work less than a year after.

And it was difficult when I thought about how the people at the ranch associated with the ranch responded to my situation, protecting their money more than Being there for me supporting me even even kind of as a person that was difficult I understand again both and I understand you're gonna have to protect your place or your your your job Legally, but also to support a person who's gone through something very difficult.

I think is important They didn't so that took a while. I'm glad to say that has been reconciled to but that that took a while Yeah, I bet and it makes sense It sounds like the kids would be even easier to forgive because you kind of had that expectation of them being rough around the edges and struggling in a lot of ways, coming from really rough backgrounds, having that dependence on substances and stuff like that.

Whereas with the, you know, people who are leading you or in management, whatever, you had somewhat of an expectation of like safety and caring for you. So it makes sense why that would be the case. I had expectations of a perhaps appropriate response from that situation and In my opinion, the way I received it, I was like, what the hell is going on here?

Interestingly, the person I struggled with most after that assault, and I have no problem sharing this, is God himself. You know, when he almost died, it was an 80 percent mortality rate. In today's day and age, people don't often in the, in the United States of America, in these days, they, they don't often experience physical pain as a result of being on mission.

I did. And so I couldn't relate to Jesuits or missionaries to the new world with the, with the native Americans who did not understand why they were there and they experienced martyrdom. Some of them, uh, as well as the old Jesuits in different countries. in Europe and in Asia. I couldn't relate to those guys.

I know they died because of their faith, but I was in a different situation. I was helping out on a ranch a yes, because of my faith. I wanted to help the boys, but also because I was in the U. S. And that doesn't happen. So I had a little conversation with God. One time I said, I'm going to have to know all of these things are real, what I believe in beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Right now I'm struggling so bad that I'm wondering, how can you let this happen? How can you let this happen? I had a master's in theology, so I kind of knew the theological answers, at least to a degree, but it was kind of the personal existential things of this is just not making sense. And also the witness of some of these people, the Catholics.

And because of my understanding of how they had responded to the situation, I was, I was pissed and I was thinking, well, this doesn't feel real. If they believe in what they believe, how are they responding this way? And it was more than just a couple of people. And so I said to God very directly, what's going on?

I'm going to have to search. I was reading in a journal just the other day written that same year of recovery. I said to God, this is dangerous because you're putting them in the dock. This time I was, I said, I will not believe if there is a very, doubt that started a long journey of how to deal with this.

And, and God, I remember showing my high schoolers in class for theology that scene out of Forrest Gump where Lieutenant Dan is up, you know, up on high in the ship and Forrest Gump is worried about him cause there's a huge storm. But Lieutenant Dan had some things to say to God. He said, you can't hurt me.

Something to the effect of you can't hurt me. What I do remember is you son of a. And I think that prayer looking back was just fine. I think that's a good prayer. In fact, and I shared with my high school students sometimes in life, that's the prayer you should pray if you really want to know God and his will.

It's certain times that's a prayer because it's so real. It's so like, this is what I'm going through and not meant to be like, you know, if you're a person of faith, like disrespectful to God, it's more like, Hey, I'm struggling here. Like this is what I'm actually going through. I could put on a mask and pretend I'm not.

That's right. It's a lot of people do. I can be like super pious and everything on the exterior looks good. But interiorly, I'm just like so broken and struggling. That's exactly right. And I had to hold two principles. I had to hold the principle of fake it until you make it. To a degree, that's like the most practical advice we can hear in life.

And that is not being fake. That is putting one foot in front of the other to live a relatively productive life in the midst of going through difficulty. And then the other thing is holding this tension of God and daily life. By no means a simple thing, especially with the psychological struggles I was having, cause it took about five years after that assault just to simmer down that brain to, to, I would call still a, a high octane level, but it didn't feel as much like it was on fire.

And everyone who has had a brain injury can relate to this. Or if you've been the family member of a brain injured person. Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. Yeah. I think of like Navy SEALs who have TBI or like go through the traumatic brain injury, like that stuff. It's like, it's real. It's man, it's a whole world that I don't understand fully, but through your experience, it's um, super instructive and wow, that's a, it's a heavy cross.

And one thought on that is there were many years, right? Cause this is a many year journey recovery. It will be a, just a journey of one of a difficult thing I experienced in my life for the rest of my life. But there were many years of acute years of difficulty. Many times I kind of wish that I could have at least been part of a kind of banner.

Brothers, uh, seals certainly can have made it as a seal. Me neither, uh, but Air Force. I could have done Air Force , uh, or a different branch because at least then I would've had some kind of fellowship with people who had gone through it, or professionals who were there for like this huge group. I just felt very alone.

Because, you know, I did solicit help for the brain in psychology and they were helpful, but I was still walking that path alone. Wow. That was hard. Yeah. That's so isolating and so hopeless at times, honestly. Yes. So tempted to despair. I'm sure I've been there. Oh yeah. About 5 PM every day after my first year of teaching, I'd think, okay, this is a suboptimal situation recovering from this injury.

So experiencing effects in this job is a lot to deal with. So, brother in law. Where's the scotch? Yeah. I hear you. And I'm living with them. Yeah. Yeah. It um, it makes sense that we cope with pain in the ways that we do, even if they're not healthy. Like it's not something we want to continue doing, but I totally like, I get why people do that.

I get why I've done that struggle with vices in the past where it's like, yep, they, they serve a purpose. They're not good for us, but they serve a purpose and hopefully we can break free and find a healthier alternative. But uh, but yeah, I totally get why. Why we go down that path. That's right. And I like how you said that, that it makes sense.

And I would say actually it's natural as a Thomas Aquinas man, uh, started a nonprofit called the Aquinas Forum. I'm, I'm obsessed with Thomas Aquinas because more than anyone, a Dominican friar from the 1200s. Help my how my life get into that later if you want, but yeah, he's all about faith and reason and he's gonna say that if someone is deeply struggling, they are consciously aware that they want to feel healthier, right?

But then the question becomes what good am I seeking for that health? And he makes a distinction between real and apparent goods. So in that situation, uh, a scotch, uh, hanging out with my brother in law, a scotch, it's effects on the brain. It tastes good. It calms you down. Uh, good times of the brother in law.

That seems like a great good. And perhaps one day it is. That's awesome. The meaning of, of alcohol Aquinas says is festivity. So that's good. That's a purpose. That's good. Fine. But as it relates to a brain injury, it's not a true good. It's not a real good at all. It's going to be an apparent good. Wow. And that's kind of the drama of the moral life is, am I choosing real goods or apparent goods?

And it took me a while to get back on the train of real goods. Rather than just kind of quick fixes are going to make me feel better. But for people who are going through addiction or battling vices, it's a healthy psychological principle. I believe to realize there's a reason you're doing this loneliness, brain injury, hurt.

depression, uh, stress from job, whatever the vice is, it's, it's almost always going to be an apparent good to help you. And so the realization is you're, you're not weird for wanting health and trying to find something or, or experiencing something that does help you makes you think it's helping. But the reality of it is we want to be moving more towards those real goods.

Yeah, and things that are going to help in the long run, not just in the short term, not be like a quick fix. And yeah, I know for me as a teenager, it was pornography. That was my drug of choice. And, uh, it did, it helped me in the moment. It almost sounds scandalous to say that, but it's true. It served a purpose, but it was making me miserable.

And so I knew I needed to get that out of my life and I did thankfully, but yeah, I recognize now looking back, it's like, yeah, it did. It served a purpose and I wish I didn't fall into that, but. But yeah, I was in a very rough spot. There's a reason why you did it. Loneliness, what have you, you, and then you experience this and it draws you in to another world.

It would be actually a false ecstasy. And then when this takes over you, there's a, like, this is what I experienced. You think, what kind of person am I with all these vices must be some kind of a monster. Yeah. Because. So to speak of us takes over you. It literally does, but it feels like almost like another power.

And like you said, say, well, this was just the wrong decision. It, an Irish priest wants to find sin to me as it seemed like a good idea at the time. You know, everyone can relate to that. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I love where you're pointing people. It's like there's a, maybe, maybe one way to say it is like there's a little bit of a monster inside of us.

that like acts out at times, but we're both the good and the bad in the sense that, you know, if we choose to do bad, like that doesn't fully define us. Like there's a reason that we're doing that. We should stop doing that and do the good. Um, but there's a reason we go in that direction. And if you shame yourself thinking like that, I just don't just do bad.

I am bad. Then the chance of you like coming back from that is like. Greatly diminished. But if you can see yourself as like, I'm both the vices and the virtues that I hold, I'm both. And I want to reduce the vices and increase the virtues. But if I want to pretend I'm just the virtues or say like I'm limited to just these vices, then I'm going to be debilitated and probably give up and just live a horrible life.

Yep. That's right. Let's go back to forgiveness. Let's do it. Someone say it's easier not to forget. It's too much hard work. It's too difficult. So the question really is to someone, especially in this position right now, like they're, they've been hurt. They kind of feel like they should forgive or they've heard they should forgive, but they're not really compelled to do that because it's so painful.

Why forgive? What are some of the benefits that you've experienced or you've thought of, or you've learned from Aquinas about forgiveness? Well, first of all, you know, there's a sense in which there's a, there's a great dignity that should be given to someone who's gone through something very, very difficult.

You know, Pope John Paul II, one of my heroes, he writes this about suffering, that suffering is uniquely your own. Right. Hopefully that does not turn us into narcissists who kind of use that as a, is like a victim mentality and have a, like a flag over your head of look at me. No one understands me.

Although that is a feeling. Yeah. But I would say to that person, okay, fair enough. That's what you feel like is going to be a lot of work and sounds like you're an intense chapter in your journey. But, but let me ask you this question. Is it worth it? Is it worth the work? If you have a thousand pound stone on your back that we call resentment and hurt and you have a bridge that you can walk over.

That is a bridge such that that thousand pound rock will take off you does that sound appealing to you? Yeah, compared to just walking around in this valley with a thousand pound brick because I think the effect of unforgiveness and and hurt resentment bitterness makes it worth it to pursue a kind of alleviation of that rock.

So it was very practical. You know, I, I like to be a reality guy more than anything in the world. Please God. Very practically speaking, if you're struggling with unforgiveness about something big, you have a huge rock in your shoulder. And it helps when someone comes up to you who has a 500 pound rock or a thousand, perhaps a 10, 000 pound rock.

And I've met a couple of those people. And at one point they had that rock in their shoulders, but they don't anymore. And here I was at the thousand pound rock. It said, can we have a chat? Wow. So very practically I would say, I love that. And I want to continue on that road for a second. Yep. Yeah, just playing out like that resentment, like we don't really often think about like, well, what happens if you don't forgive?

How is that holding you back in life? Because that might feel like the default position. And so aside from resentment, and feel free to go deeper into that, what else do you think happens if we don't forgive? How does that damage us? Because we kind of think of it as not forgiving damages the person who hurt me.

But I've heard it said that not forgiving someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah, I think that's right. And again, the person I needed to forgive was God. That sounds so presumptuous. It's crazy. But you know what? That was real for me. Yeah. I'm a bit of a black and white guy at times of, okay, either this faith or my faith is true all of it, uh, or perhaps none of it.

Either God is control of everything. Because he's God so presumably he would be or or it's not it's the opposite So, you know if he isn't there if he isn't control of if he is not there He is not in control of everything. And so it's a total shit show It's total chaos and that's a trauma feels like that's what unforgiveness Can feel like because of the hurt that you're that your experience has caused And so with forgiveness and unforgiveness, again, that, that's a question that is, that follows a terrible experience, a bad experience.

What I want to focus on, uh, in my life and, and back then is the experience itself. It's kind of like, how do I process this experience? And then that dictates is forgiveness reasonable, is it not? If, if I would propose if God is not real, if he's not in control of all of this, including moral laws. A bad experience may be unfortunate for you, you feel pain, but it's not violating some ultimate moral law and everything is absolute chaos and contradiction.

That's a suboptimal place to be in life, feeling that. It's a heavy place to be, but, um, but if on the other hand that there, there's been an experience of reality in your life that is causing such a pain and this gets your question now. It's, it's a, it's a thousand pound rock you're carrying. It's a disease.

It's, it's, it feels like another person. You're another person right now. And so who the hell cares about forgiveness right now? You're conscientious and I was conscientious of this is not good. This is not a good feeling to have. This is not a good place to be. It feels like life itself is a prison. And so forgiveness is a possibility to help out with that situation.

And it did me. It did me, I'll, I'll tell you why, because, because forgiveness is a way out of that to some degree. But, but I want, I want to stop there because that answers your question. Yeah. I would not say it's unforgiveness. That is the, the main issue. The main issue is going to be the experience you had, 100 percent and the pain that led to and forgiveness is, is a healthy way out.

I hear you. Not the only bit. Hey. Yeah. No, I hear you. And I think some people hear about forgiveness and they actually think that they need to jump to that prematurely. Yup. It's actually something that happens like later in the healing process, if we want to call it that. That's not something that happens right away.

And I want to get into like the steps of healing, which I know they're not totally linear, but But I think there are some good principles that we can crack into, but it's like the word you just said a few minutes ago, it's nuanced. It's not other levels. Yeah, totally. But I think it's actually harmful to try to forgive too soon.

And, uh, one of the steps that are the principles that I've heard about forgiveness is truly understanding like the cost, like what it's, the ways in which you were damaged, uh, not to remain a victim forever. I love that you brought up the victim mentality thing, because I think we all could be tempted to that, but to, uh, to truly move beyond it, to close that chapter in your life and to move on, not that it will never come up again, but that you're, you know, in a better, stronger spot, you're able to move forward.

So if someone came up to you now and said. John, there's someone who really harmed me. I want to forgive them. I just have no clue how to go about that. What would you say? What advice would you give them? It's interesting, you know, it's been 18 years I get a, get a little emotional about that question because it's a powerful one.

The first thing I'd say to that one is if a person came up to me and asked me that first step is Let's grab a cup of coffee. I want to hear about your story. I call it swapping stories. Because it's a light way in. If someone's gone through something very difficult, I don't like to get into solution mode, solutionize them.

I like to say, dude, let's get together. Let's swap some stories. Um, within the context of that story, I think it would unfold itself, the pain, the difficulty, the hurt, and then that how forgiveness might be one of their main hangups to prevent freedom because unforgiveness, it's a grasping. It's kind of a false grasping in my experience.

Kind of a false control. You think, well, I've been hurt and I'm not going to be hurt again by whatever you, the other person thinks and intends or what have you. It can be even a kind of paranoia. So within that context, I try to find out where, where they're at and then perhaps skipping ahead, perhaps not, but I would try to share from my own experience and then ultimately pointing to reality that.

As difficult as the things are that we can experience, life is greater than that. Life is much greater than that. And I think forgiveness is typically associated with zooming in on something that seems to be all encompassing. And yet, if we can take a step back, and this is the importance of story and sharing your story, feeling like someone else freaking cares.

You can see kind of a bigger Vista, if you will, a bigger landscape and that that's hope. So Unforgiveness, I think is very much tied to hope like screw this screw that it's resentment mode. It's bitterness mode Whereas if you see a greater landscape of okay, this is a difficult thing I have to deal with and and the resentment unforgiveness I have But now at least I can see a greater reality that, that, that life may offer me an experience of joy and happiness that I could not experience if I keep zoned in on this terrible thing.

Okay, that makes so much sense. And I love that idea too, that you allude to, of when people hurt you, you rightly feel that they owe you some sort of a debt. I think that's right. Yeah, and so Unforgiveness, I guess, would look like demanding that debt in some way and I want to be careful here. In some situations, it's very important that person does pay the debt.

It's important that those, in my opinion, that those kids went to prison. Yes. Like they needed to. But... Um, that's not up to you to impose that punishment. It's up to a third party law enforcement to impose that so that you're free then to release them of any further debt that they might owe you. And so that's the act of forgiveness, but it's not easy and it's not linear and it's messy.

And I, yeah, I've been there. There can be things that you really hold on tightly. You want to forgive, but it's like, I just can't let this go at this point in my life. And if I, if you're there listening right now, I would say that's okay. Yep. Like, don't, don't force it. Like, you can keep working towards that, but it's not something that maybe you're ready to do right now.

Maybe there's some initial, like John's advising you on, like, maybe there's some initial steps that you need to be taking, like going deeper into your story. Having someone who's there just listening to you, walking with you, which will then free you to get rid of that resentment, to forgive and free that person of that debt that they owe you.

Anything to add? I, I think that's right. I think there's a lot, there's a lot there. I think everything you said is true. I also think that the biggest kind of principle for me going through all this was one thing. What is really real? What the F is real here? Because if I know it's real, then I can understand.

My terrible experience, I can understand people's responses. I can understand even my own, uh, interior world kind of according to that. If things are real, if, if you will, if things are stable and then if I can kind of seek to live a life in communion with ultimately what's real rather than get caught up in what I call kind of the, um, the, the spider web.

Above my brain of trying to connect all the pieces. And I did that for five years, if you will. I got a master's degree in that. And, uh, I said that master's degree sucks because it does not work. You're just chasing everything up in the spider web compared to asking that more fundamental, admittedly abstract question.

What is really real real? Because I think there's an answer. And when you, when someone knows what's really real and they live according to that. They, they know or they think that there is a pattern of reality, there are signposts. Within which we can contextual our contextualize our lives and everything we do and there's at least a sense of Okay, things are okay at root, but one of the worst things about trauma I think the worst is that it changes your understanding of everything whereas you feel like the cosmos itself It's spinning whereas if you ask that question, what is really real you take A slow journey to your point of understanding that then everything becomes contextualized unforgiveness.

Um, resentment, spite, bitterness, even depression. You can say, okay, this is an issue. This is very difficult in my life, but it's not what is most really real. And so I at least have a little bit of time and there's a sense of like, okay, I'm okay for now. I have a journey, there's lots ahead, but I'm okay. You know, I'm at least two degrees safe because I know that reality is safe.

Well, that's, that was a worse for me. It felt like reality itself wasn't safe. Yeah. Can I imagine like watching your back constantly? That's right. Even to this day, uh, every week, once or twice a week, I will, for some reason, it's a gas stations when I'm. Filling up my car or at the, at the counter buying a, a soda, I will feel like, like if someone's behind me just automatically not, not conscientiously or uncon it's, it's unconscious, but I will feel like someone's going to come over me and hit me on the head and kind of, kind of the, the, the feeling of shutters, you know, in the body.

And that, I mean, that's been going on Joey for 18 years and. It's not about a control experience. I still in control to this point. I think, okay, well, there it is again. Just experienced like 0. 5 seconds of terror. My goodness, but it was 0. 5 seconds, you know, and it's not real. Yeah, right.

Yeah. I think lots of people can relate to that kind of an experience. Yeah, man, that's intense. And thank you for sharing so vulnerably throughout this whole interview. Um, you are very real and what are some maybe myths or misunderstandings about forgiveness that you've observed that are like really, really unhelpful that you want to warn people against?

Yeah. I would say the first one and the most annoying is perhaps the cheesy cheesy. Or cliche, Christian one, including all forms of Christian. I happen to be Catholic. And so, you know, I'm Christian. And so, so a response of like, if someone says, do you forgive them? Say, absolutely. With a certain kind of tone of voice and kind of whisper.

And you say, really, man, and I want to punch these people. Um, But really, I don't because you know what they're trying to do? They're trying to do the best they can on their own journey. Yeah. It's more about them than about you at that point. It is. And, um, you know, okay, that's how they're dealing with. But the issue is, again, you just mentioned that word real and it's not real, you know, the act of the will.

Of forgiving and I like to get into that kind of, we need to define forgiveness. Please. That office is not defined and it's terrible. Great. Because if you're trying to do something that you don't know what the hell it is, that's not good. Cause you won't do it. Cause you don't know what it is. How would you?

Yeah. It's like. Well, I need to get healthier, but I have no idea what healthy is. And so I'm obsessing all day long about being healthy, but I don't know what it is. So I have to lean on my man, Thomas Aquinas, and I'm going to paraphrase him. If there are any expert Thomas out there, please forgive me, uh, for paraphrasing this.

But I read at one point is lightning bolt of clarity for me that he said, forgiveness has to do with. Seeing the other person as more than the harm that they've inflicted and seeking to love the wholeness of who that person truly is, rather than that experience of them inflicting harm. So good. Right.

And that comes from, uh, 800 years ago because the real is really real. It doesn't change folks, people in ancient Greece. Now it's the same humanity. Human nature is constant, doesn't change. And so forgiveness has always been possible since the dawn of human history. And so step one is understanding, okay, this is what that is.

Now the next thing becomes, am I going to buy an act of the will alone is the important principle here. Am I going to lean into that? And it indeed is a lien. I am a big fan of forgiveness as a journey. It truly is. It is not a journey of emotions. In fact, essentially, emotions has nothing to do with it.

It's an act of the will. A good principle in that, I was just thinking, if you're waiting for your emotions, if you're waiting to feel like you want to forgive the person, in a sense, like, you're going to be waiting forever. That's right. You'll be waiting forever. Yeah, that, that doesn't work. And we are in a hyper emotional culture, hyper emotional.

Now I'm a passionate guy. I've got Irish, uh, got Irish blood. John Slattery O'Brien, fairly Irish name. And so boy, I got that. That is difficult blood to have when you're going through these experiences. But I would say silver lining of my entire experience has been I have learned the relationship between emotion and will, emotion and intellect and will or, or decision, right?

And the re, the relation of all that to happiness. And, and I've learned that you can be living an objectively happy day and kind of good day. An order day and still feel like a wreck and that, you know what, that's actually pretty cool because at least there's peace because peace is a coin that says is the tranquility of order.

Peace is not some emotion, essentially, it's a tranquility of order and we feel that, right? And so, as it relates to forgiveness, if we make this decision to forgive and to grow in that forgiveness, we are choosing to see that person as more than just their, their harm, their evil. And because that's true, we can have the experience of a little bit more order in our souls, in our minds and wills, according to what's really real, right?

Rather than, okay, I'm going to focus in on the harm, the inflicted, and it's going to be the only thing I see. And it's going to make me just, just a bitter, unpleasant person. Well, a, that's. That sucks. B, it's actually not accordance with reality as much as seeing the person for who they are as a whole. And so, that's where it begins.

If people don't know the definition... Like abstractly, we still know what it is kind of enough, uh, but it does help to get into what it is per se. So we begin that journey with the will. And then all of a sudden, you know, we do is I think, you know, is what I experienced. We become a little bit more integrated because we're seeing the whole, you know, think of just the most bad military person you've ever met or firefighter or doctor or cop.

They have seen everything. And you know what? You go up and talk to them about it like, man, what have you experienced that you've seen? And it's just been a nightmare. And they're like the chillest people on earth. They see reality more than more than they would if they're just zoned in on that one particular experience.

I want to be very clear. Again, there's a both hand, both hand. Yeah. It's not some simple answer that clears everything up. The good news is, is that. The real is really real and we can seek to live in accordance with that with reality and then we Become in time. It's journey of integration a better scenario a better kind of place to be on the journey I would say then sitting in your home obsessing about how much you hate this person.

Yeah. There's so much freedom there and kind of leaving that behind is, you know, when I share these things become a, because I'm a pretty philosophical guy. I am concerned that it's a little bit over the top abstract. What's, what's your sense of that right now? No, no, I think it's helpful and I think maybe being a little bit more general is helpful because then people can fill in the blanks, you know.

I think that's right. Uh, I like general. I think that's a good word because general again relates to that sense of reality, like reality is bigger than we make it. And the important thing is to gather principles for this and to, and. We're not alone and there are principles and reality is big and then there's hope.

Yeah. So you don't need to be a philosophy just nerd like I am to, to, to want to go on these things. They think the important thing is in some sense, even better is to just have a kind of on the ground understanding of these principles. So good, man, this has been so enlightening. I've learned a lot from you in this interview and I appreciate your time And just if people want to go deeper and learn more about Aquinas about what you offer.

Tell us about your nonprofit What do you guys actually offer and how does it benefit people? That's right So I have a nonprofit called the Aquinas forum started three and a half years ago, and it's very simple It's an independent nonprofit that helps people grow in faith and, uh, develop a Catholic worldview.

Uh, it's all about faith and reason, the relationship between faith and reason, which is constitute a lot of our chat here, because it's easy to live based on only faith, we call that fideism. Not paying enough attention to the here and the now the order of nature of reality or to live only off of reason which is going to be rationalism and Because there's a relatively because there's a clear limit to our reason that is not going to give nearly as much kind of hope and Greater view of the landscape of reality or even what it could be if you don't have Faith and so both of these alone, I would say Are not ideal.

Whereas if you integrate these things, that boy, that's a, that's a beautiful life. Again, my hero, Pope John Paul, the second said, faith and reason are like two wings upon which the human soul ascends to the mystery of God. You know, that's good. Yeah. And it's real. And so I started this nonprofit to help people grow on that.

I worked at a parish for a number of years. I felt like I learned some of the skills to do this. So, so to speak, I had a product to offer, started this nonprofit. We do different things locally conferences, books, studies, classes, but then I've also opened up this wing through my website. That we offer people free resources for small groups.

Nice. The how to guide for leaders or hosts, as well as the studies themselves written by some great authors. And it's, it's actually helping people to what, to grow on what's really real scripture, little bit of philosophy. Uh, we have Bible studies up now and it's good stuff and the hope is, well, the hope is hope in a sense, wherever you are on the journey, that the real is really real and that there is hope ahead.

There are good things ahead, and they're actually good things right now for your life. Love it. Yeah. And so whether someone's maybe been on some sort of spiritual journey for a while, they can join, or if someone's in the beginning of it and just like questioning things, they're welcome as well. Is that right?

That's right. So locally we have things where people can come and they can come from any faith background or none. Uh, because Thomas Aquinas, it's the Aquinas Forum, he is all about. He was all about one question and that's this what is God and so Through reason and faith he explored that and so we have lots of people that come that are just kind of seekers Yeah, you know, what is this?

Is there anything to this? And that's good. And in time, we're starting to open up other Aquinas forums throughout the country. We have two that are about to open and that's why I named it forum. It's a forum where people of any faith or the Catholic faith or no faith can come and explore the deeper questions of life.

And then also the small group, the small group initiative we have through the website that helps people do that in what I call their own corners of the world. So living room. Thank you. A tavern, whatever. Love it. Yeah. I love that. You're facilitating that and guiding it. That sounds amazing. Uh, how can people find you online?

Uh, Aquinasforum. org. Just go and check us out. You can find the email there, uh, the info email that will come to us or, uh, your, your, I can give my email now, my Aquinas Forum. Yeah. Are you open to people contacting you? Absolutely. No. I love to chat with people on the journey because, uh, candidly, that's what I was looking for for years.

Again, kind of a unique experience, faith experience I had on the ranch, trauma, but then also brain injury that that's, that's quite the intersection of things to go together. And I just wanted someone to chat with and swap stories. Eventually found one or two is great. So I'm, I love to do that now with, with other people.

And you know what I like to say, and I've found this is a great principle of freedom for other people as it has for me is this, uh, there's no red bow if, if we go through something terrible in this life. There, there, it's okay that there's not necessarily going to be a big red bow you put on top of it of like, this is why it happened and this is what it means in a holistic sense.

Trauma, it's intuitively bigger than that. That's why we have to ask the question, is there an afterlife? Because as Plato said, injustice will not be corrected in this world. I mean, Hitler killed how many millions of people, right? That's, that per se cannot be corrected in this world. But in the afterlife, through justice, and through how God deals with all of this, and including the victims of what they've gone through, we have great hope, for different reasons, that this can be reconciled.

And so, just want to help people with that. Try to offer some initiatives that can slowly, uh, including me meeting up with people. We won't talk about a red bow But we will talk about some principles. I think that can lead to greater freedom Happiness really? Yeah. No, that's so good. We all want to be happy and No, I love what you said and I love that you're so open and so generous with your time.

I appreciate you offering that. Yeah, I'm happy to. This has been a great treat. Yeah, and everyone listening right now, if you're just wrestling with those big questions or maybe you've never thought about those, um, I would say you are worth seeking answers to those questions. Like you deserve that. You deserve asking those big questions and finding answers and this is one resource that you can use.

to do that. So how can people contact you if they, yeah, so again, it's Aquinas forum. org is going to be my website. And then my personal email through the forum is John J J O H N at Aquinas forum. org. A Q U I N a S isn't Sam forum. org. Love to hear from you. Beautiful. And we'll throw that in the show notes.

So you guys can just copy and paste that as well. Want to give you the final word here. What final advice? Encouragement challenges would you offer to everyone listening, especially those listening right now who feel very stuck because of the trauma they've endured in their lives. Like what would you leave them with?

Keep moving forward. Keep moving forward. For 10 years of my life, I felt like such a wreck and I would consider man. You know, in a sense, what, what would be the greatest encouragement I could hear right now because there are so many questions and thoughts and feelings floating around that, you know what I wanted?

I wanted someone to say, John, uh, the most valiant thing you can do right now is keep keep moving forward. Put one foot in front of the other on this road to greater health. Because there are answers and I felt like that was the greatest thing I could do and wherever you are, whatever you're going through, if you are putting one foot in front of the other and you're moving forward, even if that's so slow.

You want to take bigger steps, but you can only take a small step. That's what you have control of, and that's where you can find heroism.

If you want more content, more guidance on the topic of forgiveness, I highly recommend episode 58 of the show. I spoke with an expert who did his PhD dissertation actually on forgiveness, lots of great advice in that episode. Again, that's episode 58, or you can just click on the link in the show notes.

Quick reminder that if you'd like to offer your advice on how to make the podcast even better, just go to restoredministry. com slash survey, answer the questions there and submit the form. Again, restoredministry. com slash survey, or just click on the link in the show notes. And if you do that by November 15th, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Honestly, once it's over, just take 30 seconds to share this episode. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#103: How Does Your Body and Brain React to Trauma? | Patricia Scott, LPC, PhD Candidate

What happens inside your brain and your body when you endure trauma?

Surprisingly, there’s actually a predictable way that your body and mind responds to trauma. In this episode, we break down each response with a trauma therapist. We also discuss:

• How her parents’ divorce impacted her

• Is healing trauma even possible? If so, what does it take to heal?

• How to apologize the right way

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  • 101 Questions to Ask Before You Get Engaged | H. Norman Wright

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What happens inside your brain and your body. When you endure trauma, it might surprise you. But there's actually a really predictable way that your body and your mind responds. And in this episode, we'll break that down. We'll break down each reaction with a trauma therapist. We also discuss how her parents' divorce impacted her. We asked the question is healing trauma even possible. And if so what does it take to heal it? We touched on some really interesting facts about human development too. It's really important stuff to know if you want to heal and grow and thrive in life. We even discussed parenting and this stuff is relevant even if you're not a parent or you won't be for the next 10 years and how to apologize the right way and finally share for some encouragement and advice to anyone who feels broken and stuck in life. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host Joey Panelli and this is episode 103. My guest today is Patricia Scott. She is a licensed professional counselor certified in trauma therapy and a phd candidate at Ducane University in counselor education and supervision. She graduated from Franciscan University of Steubenville with her master's degree in Clinical mental Health Counseling and from Argos University with a master's degree in sport and exercise, psychology. Prior to that, she completed her bachelor's degree in psychology, philosophy and theology at Franciscan University. You heard that right? A triple major. She served as an adjunct professor of psychology and social work at Franciscan University and adjunct faculty member at Ducane University. After treating clients as a therapist, she now works on the management side of a counseling practice as the director of data management and analytics. Petty loves to play volleyball, spend time with her family and close friends and most of all play with her nieces. Uh she lives in Boulder Colorado with her dog, Mr Darcy. So Patty is brilliant if you can tell and that's a good friend of mine. I'm just so excited for you to learn from her. Uh In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And so if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this podcast for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, glad you're here. And if you don't believe in God, my challenge to you, is this just listen with an open mind even if you skip or take out the God parts. You're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. And since we recorded this in person too, you might hear her dog in the background. So just be aware of that. Here's our chat, Patricia. Welcome to the show. Thank you or Patty. I might refer to you as Patty. It's really good to have you. I wanted to have you on the show for a while and as we usually do on the show, let's just dive right in. How old were you when your parents separated and divorced? I was a junior in college when it officially happened. And I say officially, I found out my sophomore year of college, my mom had told me that her intention was to wait until my younger brother went to college to divorce my dad. So I knew a whole year ahead of time. So it officially happened once my younger brother was a freshman. So that would be my junior year of college. Was that kind of a burden? It was, it was, um, I was thinking about, I was reflecting on that today and just thinking, you know, what are the reasons I felt like I could have said something. I should have said something and really it comes down to just a few scenarios. Either I tell this important information and things get worse because he didn't know or I tell him he makes an effort or they both make an effort. Things get better or I tell him and I see that he makes no effort and it's heartbreaking. Um But either way I felt like being told that before it happened, put a lot of pressure to build an alliance to my mom because it was this big thing that I was told not to say anything. So having to hold on to that, I think it, it did burden me and pressured me into an alliance that I didn't want to have any alliance. I mean, they're my parents. I love them equally and that's not my information to hold. It's not my information to know. So no, that's difficult. And you know, I could see from your mom's perspective, too kind of want to prepare you. But at the same time, it's yeah, there is a burden to carry around both and the aspect of wanting to inform your dad. But also probably your brother too, knowing that kind of they were waiting for him to kind of move out and that's a lot to carry. So, ok, and I got the impression that I was the only one who was told, I'm not sure. So I'm not sure if I was being told to prepare me for it or if I was being told because she wanted to tell somebody and your child is just not the appropriate person to tell. So true. I'm glad you said that because I think there are a lot of parents listening to who are going through a lot of messiness in their marriages and trying to figure out what to do next. And I think it's important to remember that Children are not meant to be emotional confidants or not meant to kind of fill the role of a spouse or even to become a parent. And it's so easy to do. Like I get why it's done, but it's so damaging, especially when you play that out over years, like ruins, the relationship creates a really unhealthy dynamic and it becomes really sad. I've seen situations where the kids just don't want to talk to the parents at all years later. And it's how sad. It's almost as if every conversation is approached with a new hesitancy because you don't know if this is going to become a conversation about you and dad or you and mom, you just don't know. So it feels like every conversation is all of a sudden unsafe to have because it's so easy because you, you shared a life with these people. This is your family and the simplest of things is not doing the dishes or not doing the preferred way or not cleaning your room. You just never know what can lead to a conversation. Oh, I remember your mom or your dad let you do this and everything can turn so quickly. Yeah. No, I hear you. And we must develop these multiple personalities in the sense that we need to be one person around, like dad, one person around mom, one person around like maybe certain relatives or friends. And it can be really challenging to juggle all that. I know, man, there's so many heartbreaking stories of kids who literally had to juggle their lives between two homes and then everything else that comes along with that like bringing different bags to school and all that good stuff. So it's not good stuff. it's heavy stuff and uh yeah, it's, it's tragic, but I'm glad you said you love your parents because I know, um there's sometimes people get the impression that if you speak honestly about what you've been through that somehow you're putting them down or condemning them or saying that you don't love them. But I, I usually kind of cheekily ask, you know, do you hate your parents? And you already answered the question? And that's, yeah, it's, you know, we love our parents. Um, but in order to, I think to, to heal and grow, we need to be honest about what we've been through and we can do that in a way that still honors them. I am, I think the love I have for them has deepened in a sense because I've seen them, they've become more human and as I've grown older, I understand what it means more to be human and to be fallen. So I think being able to reflect on that each year, not that I make an active effort to reflect on each year but each year, like, you know. Yeah, exactly. There's, you know, it always comes up in some way it comes up or I think about it or a conversation happens and it just, that gets brought up. So, seeing more of their humanness and growing up and understanding nobody is perfect. So still it doesn't invalidate the good things they did. As a parent it doesn't take away or make worse the negative things that happened. It just makes it more human and making it more human is really humbling to see myself progress as a fallen human. So it's almost as if I understand them a little bit better and I not that I sympathize or I have compassion for it. I don't think I ever would and I don't think, I think it's ok to not just seeing it, their humanness helps me grow in love for them. No, that's beautiful and no, I could say, you know, being married and having a baby girl and you know, being a parent, it definitely opens your eyes more to you definitely can understand what your parents were going through. But at the same time, you can still kind of hold that standard up and say like no, what happened was damaging. It was difficult, it was in some cases even wrong. Yeah, you can say both of those things at the same time. So I'm curious how did all that affect you, we talked a little bit about it. But how did that play out in, you know, the years that followed? Honestly, I think there was some of God's grace at work in the timing of it, even though I found out as a sophomore and I didn't want to know that initially, it did make me more angry and anytime I would come home during that year and I was, I was more anxious because I was just waiting to find out that papers had been presented or there have been discussions with lawyers finding things out, just waiting to have this burden lifted from me. I do think there was graces in it though. I think waiting until the last kid was out of the house and in college was a smart choice. So even though you're going to do this monumental, you know, damaging thing, having an appropriate sense of timing or respect for the development of your Children and you know, with the timing of it, I think makes a difference. And so we were out of the house, we didn't have to see what happened. So I didn't, I don't know what happened on a day to day basis. None of us did because even though they were living in the same house and they were going through this divorce, none of the kids were there in the house. Now we all saw what led up to it. So when we heard the divorce, you know, I was like, oh, well, that makes sense. Like finally kind of thing. So I do think there were some graces. I, I can see that I was definitely angry and anxious. I, I think that was more leading up from a sophomore year when I found out it was going to happen to when it actually did happen and then when it did happen, I felt a big sense of relief just not because it was happening, but because I didn't have to hold that information anymore. So after that, I think I more felt a sense of relief and I was curious to know how things would happen. Whose house would I be coming home to for Christmas or Thanksgiving? You know, I didn't know that information yet and it wasn't, it wasn't figured out. So I think having it where I was away at college, it did help and I think that minimized it. I think there was a lot of safety nets there because I had a community. I had my faith. I had things to fall back on. I had school as a significant distraction and that was my vocation at the time. So I would have to really, really think and see like what were the immediate effects of it during that time when it was going on? I mean, the divorce officially, all the paperwork in courts going back and forth just ended this year over a decade later. Oh, my goodness. I didn't know that. Ok. And we're good friends for everyone listening. Yeah, I didn't, I mean, there was, I thought a lot of the stuff was over. So, I mean, the divorce itself was done but then the battles for, am I getting paid enough? You know, like going into those things, you only have so many years. So obviously it's half of the marriage in years. And so that finally is over and that, so all I would hear about is the court battles, blah, blah, blah. So now that's done and I don't have to hear that anymore. So there's a lot of relief in that I'm sure for everyone involved. But I could see especially for you and yeah, no, that sense of relief I think makes a ton of sense. And I've heard that from other people too because I remember one young woman saying, you know, her mom approached her and told her that she wanted to divorce her dad and kind of put her in a weird spot. She didn't know what to say to that. But one thing she knew was she just want the fighting to stop. And so I totally get that sense of relief immediately, especially. Was there anything else that you can kind of tie back to? Yeah, just the breakdown of your family and the divorce and everything that maybe played out years later. I mean, there's some major things I would say that play out later. But they played out in the time they played out during their marriage. So from a younger age, I obviously had a love for our faith. I had a love for theology. I had a love for church teaching. So when I first learned what marriage was learned this, this is great Sacrament. And I remember talking to it about my, with my siblings and my parents. When I say siblings, I don't mean all of them. I mean one sibling in particular just to clarify. So I would talk to about to my older sibling uh because she was also very active in our youth group at the same parish. And so I remember bringing it up to her. I'm like, oh, I just learned about this and she was like, oh yeah, our uh some of this was my mom's second marriage. Her first marriage was Sacramental. It was never an nulled because she felt at that time she was so young. She didn't have a full understanding of it that if it was to be annulled, it would be as if she didn't exist. And so that was her conception of that at the time. Obviously, that's not the case, that's a very harmful thinking and that really should be addressed and it just wasn't addressed in a healthy way. So my parents' marriage was a civil marriage. So as soon as I heard that all I could think was man, I don't want either one of my parents to be in mortal sin. I want them to divorce and knowing that I had, I think I had that thought probably around sixth or seventh grade was the first time I thought that but they should not be married. Like it's not even a sacrament. It's a valid marriage but it's not sacramental. My mom has been living in mortal sin in this and my dad's participating in it as the sin of scandal. I want this to be over and thinking, you know, it doesn't take away any of our identities as kids in a family. It doesn't take away any of that. I just wanted it to be done because I didn't want either one of them to be hurting their soul in that way. And it was very difficult to the only person I tried to articulate that to was my youth minister and my older sister, I never said that to parents. But I do remember feeling that sense of like, oh like, ok. And I remember after that would be like mom, you want to go to confession with me, but you never know if someone's going to realize that level or degree of sin and actually bring that to confession or want to, you know, have that, that cleansing from it. So knowing that it definitely put a different filter on relationships, it put a different filter on what I see marriage being and the intention behind it and having it being sacramental and the value of that as I was growing up more in high school years, not seeing what I would consider a healthy marriage, seeing more fights. I was very hesitant to get into any kind of relationship with people because I thought that's all it was. This is just someone that you fight with regularly and they just can't go anywhere like they have to come back. You know, that's kind of what my conception was of it a little bit like, ok, this is someone you have kids with, you get to fight with them all the time. But I realize as an adult, all I saw was the fighting. I didn't see the resolution. And that's something as an adult, as a therapist. Whenever I talk to people, I said the most important thing in my opinion that you can do as a parent is resolve conflict in front of your kids because so frequently we all learn how to fight. We all learn how to fight fair, we learn how to fight unfair, you know, I mean, we learn how to backstab but we don't learn how to resolve. And that is the most difficult thing. Like we rarely, probably rarely hear how to even properly apologize to someone. And now that's such a big emphasis in my life. Like when I apologize to someone, I have like a specific formula that I follow for even making an apology because it was something I had to really learn to dive into because I never saw that example through my parents. And that was hard, like realizing that like first time in the inkling England 6th, 7th grade, going into high school, seeing it more and then have developing, you know, more deep relationships with friends, seeing the importance of it and then going to their houses and seeing that their parents had such great relationships and they were playful, you know, things like what like what was in their water today, like what is going on here? So seeing that is a big gap in the knowing that something is missing in my life and something is missing in their marriage and it's not healthy, like there's something unhealthy here. So I had to do a lot of observation of other families and other married couples to learn what it is. And through God's Providence when I went back to school at Francisca, and I lived with a family, the most amazing family who they really taught me what it is to be a Catholic family and have a sacramental marriage. I mean, they're, they're beautiful. So I think they kind of were like the positive influence that kind of took away a lot of the negative effects. I mean, it influenced every single influence relationships I had from friendships to romantic interests. It affected everything of not knowing and thinking, ok, this person is just going to fight with me and leave me you know, how long do I have with this person? Because they're probably just going to leave me whether it was a friend or not. And that was, that was a definitely a hard thing to have to think of. Like, how would you enter any sort of relationship? I know I felt the same way. I remember as like a 12, 13, 14 year old, like in the years that followed my parents' separation and later divorce. I was like, I will never get married. Like just like you felt, I was like, if this is where it leads, why in the world would I want to put myself through this? Because it was super painful for me even from the outside. And then I, you know, was able to think through like, well, it must be really painful for them. I don't know what it's like, but it must be really painful. So why would I want to put myself through that? So, yeah, and I love what you said about observing, you know, healthier relationships and how that, you know, it sounds like it gave you hope and it also kind of taught you well, this is what it looks like, this is what it should look like. And I know that was super helpful for me and we've heard that trend a ton on the show and the interviews we've done. So it's really, really beautiful. I want to go back to the apology formula. You got me really intrigued. I know everyone's like ears lit up when you said that. So what is your formula if you're willing to share? Yeah. So and this is not, I don't have the book references. It's upstairs in my library somewhere. So when you are apologizing to someone, you need to acknowledge what it is, you did and you need to name it specifically. So it's not just saying, I'm sorry that you feel bad. I'm sorry that upsets you. Well, what is the that of that statement apologizing for their feelings? And you can't do that? Your feeling, your feelings are your own. I can't control how you, I mean, I can influence and anticipate what your feelings might be through my actions. And so that is part of my responsibility, however, I don't have full responsibility over your emotional reaction. That's yours. So when we apologize to someone, you're like, I'm sorry that made you upset. Ok, great. That's not an apology. The apology is discussing what that is. So when I apologize to someone, I want to make sure that I go over the exact action that I believe I was wrong in doing or was unjust because it's not always something that you're actively doing wrong. I think it sometimes can also be when you're not being just towards another person which could be that you neglected to act or you acted in a way that could potentially be harmful or you're just wrong with something, you know, you could say something that wasn't factual in the heat of a moment and it was inappropriate to say so that I think owning up to the specifics of what it is, you are acknowledging you did wrong then recognizing how either you anticipate or you think not anticipate again, that would be worse. But how you see it affected them. Whether or not your reflection on their reaction to it is accurate or not. That's not the really important thing. It's acknowledging that you, it's a way of seeing them of understanding. Yes, this is, I have been acknowledging what it is. I did wrong. This is how it affected you. At least I could see this is how it affected you. And this is why I really don't want to do that again. You know, you saying something I suppose not say I really, I couldn't stand your shirt and I made a terrible comment about it. Is this an actual statement? Right? I just kidding. No, that's a lovely color. So I might say, you know, Joey, I'm really sorry. I made that comment about your shirt. It was really inappropriate and disrespectful for me to say. And I can imagine how disrespected you may have felt and I don't want you feeling that way because I do respect you and I do care about this relationship and I wouldn't want to have you think that I don't care about you. So I'm really, I'm really sorry that in the heat of the moment I disrespected you in that way and that was wrong and I will do my best to try and not, you know, make a comment like that. So adding a little bit of um and not just saying, I'm sorry, like everyone can say, I'm sorry, not everyone can apologize. An apology is really what repairs a relationship and that's something when I go back to what I said, I heard my parents say, I'm sorry. Tons of times. I don't think I ever heard them apologize. Oh, ok. And so that's something, that's something I had to learn over time. And when I actually started practicing it, it is tough. I don't want anyone listening to this thinking that following the formula that I just did is easy. It is so incredibly difficult. Like I'm getting goose bumps, just think about how difficult it is to do. And there have been many times where it brings me to tears just because you feel the weight of it. It's almost kind of a pseudo confession to someone who's not a priest. You're really acknowledging what it is and taking responsibility and giving that action a name. And when we give something a name, we can take ownership of it and we can do something about it. It gives us a new found power over it. So that's really good. Yeah. It's very difficult to apologize. It's easy to say. I'm sorry. It's difficult to apologize. Yeah. No, that's so good. And, yeah, I think one of the things that I struggle with when it comes to apologies is there's situations where, like I was genuinely trying to do the right thing or I thought I was doing, you know, what would help that person and then there's like, either a misunderstanding or it's seen in like, a bad light and that gets really frustrating. It's like, I don't want to apologize in that moment. Like, no, no, I was actually trying to do the right thing. So that could be tricky. So any advice there for people listening who are, you know, they literally feel like no, no, like I was literally trying to help and I did something that was then perceived as harmful or whatever the thing I think with that it's, we do need to be careful of what we say, the reason you're a what it is you're apologizing for because if you genuinely did not commit an offense, you did not do something wrong. You did not do something unjust, then really what you're doing is is making a comment or having a conversation to repair that relationship because I, I don't think we should start apologizing for things when we didn't do something wrong or when we weren't unjust. So if your action, whether it was because you think you were doing the right thing, if you were genuinely doing something that was correct. And right. And just to do, you don't apologize for doing something. Right. And just, we apologize for doing something that was wrong. So I think having that distinction is really important and that's how we would approach it because it's a different type of conversation. If it's the conversation where you did do something, just, it just didn't turn out the way you wanted and it had a negative impact on them or negative influence on, on the person. That's a conversation of repair and bringing up the intention of this is why I thought this was correct. I can see perhaps I didn't go about it in a way that was going to be positive. And so I can see how maybe I did, I could have approached it differently. And the reason I'm even bringing this up is because I do care so much about you. I wanted to do right by you. I wanted to help you. And so in my perspective, I thought I was doing that. I can see that perhaps I was incorrect. I was wrong in thinking that but again, you're not apologizing for what you did. If you didn't do something unjust, then we don't, we shouldn't apologize for doing something that was correct to do. We can apologize for how we approached it. Perhaps it could have been something that you actually talked to the person about first before you did it or maybe it could have been something that you acted on it out of, you didn't use proper prudence or temperance and you acted too quickly and you didn't reflect on the situation enough. So, in that sense, you can bring that up. I just, I don't personally, I don't think, and that's tough. It's really tough on the receiving end because you want to hear that someone say like I was wrong. But when they think about it too, if you didn't do something unjust and you were not wrong, you should not be apologizing for it because you didn't. There's nothing to apologize for so that it's more a conversation to repair. Yeah. No, that's good. And I think, um yeah, I think that's freeing because, you know, I, I think at times as humans were falling, we can be malicious, we can be nasty. But a lot of times I think there's frustration in relationships where it's like there's just misalignment like you thought the person wanted this, but they actually wanted that and they were kind of put off by you trying to do the first option, you know. So I've definitely seen that play out. I love what you said about the resolution though. And that's something you taught me actually. And that I've tried to live out not perfectly um bridge and I try to do that with Lucy, especially if she sees us, like having some sort of conflict and, you know, beyond just maybe a little bit of a dialogue, like if it's something that, you know, becomes more of a conflict, we want her to know like, hey, we're fine. Like mom and daddy, love each other. We're not, nothing's changing. We're just, you know, we just had a disagreement. We had a little bit of a conflict and trying to explain it and then saying, like, we love each other and being so young right now, uh we try to show that in some sort of a physical way like with a hug or a kiss or something. Yeah. Again, we don't do that 100% of the time. We're not perfect. I don't want to give people an impression. But uh it's definitely been very, very helpful and we've seen that also with her like she lights up when she knows that like everything is ok, like there's peace in the home because it's crazy how little kids like they become very perceptive to those things. And uh and so it's, it's really helpful for so parents listening, it's a great tip. It's something that like you see an immediate effect with. And so it's something you can implement right away. And I think to add on something to another layer, having a resolution or presenting one, it also needs to be developmentally appropriate to the child because if it's not, then it's going to go way over their head and they might not realize that was actually resold. That makes sense, you know, so in the way you display it. I mean, because you can show that to Lucy at, at a young age that she is, you know, you can role play things like even sharing basic things. You wanted a toy, she ripped it from your hands. You guys fight about it and then you have a resolution. You can physically embody that and that's something that will stick because then they will pick up on that. That's the correct behavior. Even if this is something I want and I rip this out. That's not OK. Here's how we resolve that. Whether it is that that gets removed from me and hand it back to whoever or I learn to share better, whatever the case may be, it's not always my dog is snoring in the back. Yeah. So having, having something that's developmentally appropriate as a resolution, I mean, obviously as kids get older, letting them hear those discussions to the point that's appropriate for them and again, to the degree that is appropriate for them just because someone has the capacity to understand the argument and all the, you know, the words that are being said does not mean they should get all the information. So even having resolution be presented because you can, you can go fight in your room, you can have the resolution be done in your room. In private, there needs to be an additional public display that's appropriate for your Children to hear because that's what you're teaching them if they saw the original discriminated. And I think that's, I think that's what's so powerful is that you don't have to do it perfect every time. That's why you don't need to do it in front of them every time you can go resolve it in private. But then when you're ready to come back out, you need to show that there's power in having a public display of a resolution. And I love what you said before too. You just never saw that side of it growing up and then you were exposed in other relationships and you learned it, which is beautiful and that's such a hopeful message to anyone listening right now, especially maybe you're going through your parents' divorce like in the moment and you're just in a like dark tough spot. There's a lot of hope at the end of the road, there's a lot of hope ahead. So keep your head up. Um Even if it is really, really painful and hard right now. So, yeah, I love that so much good stuff there. And like I said, it works. It's, it's really, really helpful and the more you practice, the better you get at it. I mean, even if you're doing it in private and you come out and you do a role play, you will only get better at resolving things and doing it publicly. I mean, there's no downfall to it. Yeah. No, 100% and it is, um, you need humility, kind of going back to that apology. And that's, I think that's the challenging part for me. I know that's pride is easy to, uh, it influences your behavior, actions and if you're not humble then, yeah, it can be just horrible for your relationship and I've certainly struggle with that. But, um, when you are humble it's beautiful and it ends up making the relationship and it's, it's a good reminder to your kids that you're on the same team. Like the team is your family. And even, even greater than that is the priority of the marriage that you two are on the same team as a married couple as parents. And then your whole family is on the same team. So, when we don't have that, I mean, that's something I didn't have. I didn't feel like our family was a team. I didn't feel like my parents were a team. I could play off of them like a fiddle. Not that I don't play the fiddle. Who knows? Maybe I could have. I tried, but I would get a yes from this one and a no from the other. And I would play that all day easily and I knew exactly which scenarios to go to which parent for, to get the answer I wanted because I knew they were not a team. And so that's just, that was definitely a hard thing to learn. And that was something that I could see influence my relationships, even friendships if I had a disagreement. Stonewall. No, it was so much easier just to cut someone out and not try and resolve it because I didn't know how to resolve anything. Yeah. How would you? You never, I mean, some things, I mean, I don't know. I wouldn't call it a supernatural gift. Although, and I don't mean supernatural in like a hero sense. I mean, supernatural is a grace that was given to me. I felt very, very protective of friends. And so even if someone got bullied, I would go and confront the bully and say, hey, that was not ok. What you did, I want you to come apologize. And so I would, I would do that. I started doing that in like fourth grade when bullying became like, you know, more prominent when we get to fourth grade. And so I just hated bullies. And I mean, I certainly, I know there was comments I said that I can think of to this day. I'm like, man, that was really rude. So if I ever came across that person, I probably would apologize for the things, some things I said, oh, even now, but it was just, I learned that it was so much easier to cut someone off instead of doing the hard work and no one wants to know that they're wrong. No one wants to think they're wrong. No one wants to hear they're wrong. We all are very prideful and having a sense of pride is a good thing, but it, obviously it can go too far, too quickly when you're not willing to submit yourself. I mean, especially this is your spouse, you're on the same team, not having the willingness to submit for the sake of your family, for the sake of your marriage, for the sake of Christ. Like for, there's so many things that go into it just for the sake of goodness, you know, for the sake of growing and becoming a better person. I think it's extremely, that's probably one of the most difficult things to actually live out. Yeah. No, I, I can agree with that. Let's stay here for a second because we have some parents or people who will be parents, future parents and they may be wondering, I know, I kind of wonder this. Now you're making me think, what do you do as a parent when kids try to, like, pit you against each other? Because they're so good at it because they're so good. I remember doing that as well as a kid. And so, yeah, what do you do in this situation? Have a game plan going into it? We all know kids are going to do this. Even if, even if you're a great example of a marriage, kids are going to do that because they're not going to be satisfied with a no answer, no kid wants to hear it. Can I have a dessert? No, if you said that I was going to go to mom or dad and I'm going to figure out who's going to say yes. And then I'm going to go to that person to get the answer I want next time. So having a game plan ahead of time and just having the default statement of saying I need to talk to mom about it. I need to talk to dad about it and just doing that and knowing that if that becomes your go to phrase, they will stop asking you, they will stop asking you because they know they can't play that game with you. And even if your kids are doing it now where they're pitting you against each other, you can start doing it. Now, it's going to be an uphill battle. It, it absolutely will, it will get worse before it gets better. And it could be that your spouse gives in more because it is tough. It is tough to maintain a new behavior, especially when you know that behavior is going to be a painful growth. You're gonna have some significant growing pains for your kid, but it will get, it will get better if all of a sudden they realize, ok, every time I have come to you with this, you said I need to talk to mom or I need to talk to dad first and not even giving them an answer. And that's, that's the important thing is not giving them even your preliminary answer. Cut it out completely and say no, I need to go talk to the other parent and then we'll give you an answer. So please don't ask me about it again until I have a chance to talk to mom or dad. That's so important because if you give them a preliminary example or the preliminary answer, they think that that's going to be the final answer. And so they might become even more upset if that's not the final answer. So it's better just to leave that out completely and say nope, I need to talk to mom or dad about it first. So like a scenario I know with Lucy, she's so funny. She has this like motion that she does when she wants ice cream. Like we try not to give her too much ice cream but she like imagine licking ice cream. She does that she goes and that means like I want ice cream. And so one of the mistakes I'm realizing I've made is I say, well, it's ok with me. If it's ok with mom, it would be better to say because then all the pressure is on her and then she'll be actually disappointed, but it's better to say like let's talk. I need to talk to mom. I don't know yet if you can not talk to mom. So OK, let's get him learning. Thank you even saying that, that little piece. He said, I don't know if you can yet because even that statement signals to the kid, it's up to mom. I see because you have just acknowledged that you don't have the answer and that you have to ask mom because mom holds all the power. Ok. Yeah, because then you're basically putting all the power and pressure because then because the kid is going to question, well, why don't, you know, I'm asking you, you're my parent, you know, so obviously depends on the cognitive ability of the kid. But that is something that they will catch on to. I mean, if I'm able to catch on to it in a second now, kids, kids get that so much quicker. I mean, they will believe your behaviors so much faster than they believe your words. I mean, they will just read that for days. So it, it even though it as difficult of a suggestion as it is just not giving any kind of answer and saying I need to talk with mom about it first, then I'll let you know, please don't ask me about it again till then. That's it. I mean, something different in the dynamic of I have my nieces spend the night with me usually once a week and I have done that since I moved here in 2020 which has been amazing. I love being able to give their parents a date night because I think it's so important for spouses to have a designated date night and have it be as routinely as possible. So they have it usually once a week, at least during the school year, it's always once a week and when they're at my house, because I have seen at their house that dessert is such a problem whether they haven't eaten enough to get dessert or they don't get the dessert of the choice or they misbehave. And so dessert is taken away. I mean, it is, I mean, it's just a nightmare. It's like a nuclear bomb just went off in the house. And so in seeing that I was like, nope, that does not fly in my house. I will not put up with it. So we do not do dessert in my house, period at all. They never and so it took a little bit for them to because initially we did and it started off with they would never finish it. So they would insist on having their own. We would get like a little mug cake. So it's like an individual cake. You put the mix in your cup and then you put in the microwave and you just eat a little cake out of your own little personal size mug, but they would never finish it. So I was like, ok, well, I'm not going to try and get you to finish your dessert just for the sake of finishing it. I'm just going to take it away because if you really, all you had was one bite. So you two can either decide to share or we just won't have it. They didn't want to share. So I said, ok, we're just not going to have desserts anymore, then that's fine. So they stopped expecting it and it's never a problem. So now if I give them a dessert, it's like this huge surprise. And so now you can ask my sister this, I think it was two weeks ago when I brought them home, she just sat at the other end of the counter and she goes, so I'm just curious, is there anything that mom and dad can do differently to help you listen to us better because you seem to listen to Peter so, so much better. There's never a problem. You don't throw temper chances for her. What is it? And it was her Aunt Leila's answer was very interesting. She said, well, Peter Rat doesn't give us warnings. She says sometimes when you give us a warning, I get anxious and I think I'm going to make a mistake. And so I get more emotional. If I do make a mistake, this is coming from a seven year old. This is pretty profound stuff for a seven year old to be saying in Lucy, you know, she chimes and she goes, yeah, parent doesn't give us warnings. She just tells us what happened or if we did something wrong we resolve it and we move on like there is no warning, there is a correction and that's it. So, I mean, it is the case when I thought I was like, man, do I ever really good warnings? Like no, actually I, I really don't. And so we don't have issues and so having different set of expectations and being prepared for those, like not simply not having dessert, period. There's no expectation for it. So there's no temper tantrum. There's no emotions around dessert. If you get it, it is a genuine treat. So it's never about you have to finish your food. You don't, you can't merit it at my house. And that seems to help. The master is a little tiny. I know dessert is very, very small, but for little kids, it can be really big deal when you're trying to get them to go to bed. So it's just an easy thing to do. I mean, it's not really easy because obviously if they're so used to it, it, it takes a long time to get out of that habit. But it is possible. I don't even remember where that tangent started. This is good. No, I appreciate you going into this and I'm learning and I know everyone listening is learning too and just to be clear to everyone listening, I do not have Children. I have nieces and nephews and I adore them. So I love being the thing that they get to come hang out with. Yeah. But now you have all your background and studying human development and helping people in that way too. So that's certainly helpful. And no, this is really good stuff. Going back to your story a bit. We were talking about just how your upbringing and what you experienced at home impacted you personally and we got into your relationships. Was there anything else you add about your relationships? Whether it's your friendships, dating relationships that you saw, like, were affected by the, there was this little thing I didn't realize how big of a deal it was until I started dating someone in a very serious way. And I can see a serious future with holding hands. And the, and the reason was I never saw, I think I can count on one hand, the number of times I saw my parents hold hands. Yeah, exactly. And when I think about it, I'm like, man, that's when all the other functions are gone. When you can't be physically intimate with your partner. If you or your spouse, you can't have a conversation with them because maybe you're mentally, not there or you're sick and you can't kiss them. What's the one thing you can still do is hold hands and so never seeing that really growing up, I realized how, I mean, I'm also a physical touch person that's really important to me. So, seeing that that wasn't done and it's such a simple thing. And then when you see like old people holding hands, you're like, oh my gosh, they are just the cutest thing ever. Like you have to ask yourself, what is the reason I'm having that reaction to seeing some strangers hold hands or why do I find it so annoying? When I see a couple at a table who are just like following each other's hands, you're like, ok, guys eat your dinner, you know, but there's something really, I think there's something so powerful about that because I mean, our hands are very, very sensitive and we use them to speak, we use them to do day to day action. So we use, they're so profound. I mean, we wouldn't really be humans without our hands, you know, like obviously there's much more to that statement. This is just a very simple thing, but I didn't realize how important holding hands was until I met someone that I really, really want to spend a future with and thinking man, my favorite thing like when I and don't get to be around you, the one thing that I want to do is hold your hand and it's because I never saw it. And so I, I explained to him, you know, I really think the most important thing to me is to make sure that if we, if we're still together, if we get married, we have kids that we better hold hands, whether you are upset with me or not. If I reach for your hand and you deny holding my hand, like there will be hell fire running down. But I just think there's such importance in holding hands. Like because even if, even if kids are not comfortable hugging or they're not comfortable sitting next to you or they're not comfortable with any kind of physical touch. Generally, they might be ok with holding your hand. Like because it could be a safety thing like crossing the street. So they get used to holding your hand for some reason. So there's so much about holding hands that I think goes understated. Yeah. And I didn't realize that until I was an adult and then when I realized why it was, I realized I didn't see my parents hold hands. Yeah. OK. Now that makes so much sense. It's such a primal thing to I forget if this was in a talk or something. But when we're meeting someone for the first time too, you might have even taught me this. The, the act of like shaking a hand or showing your hands is actually on a subconscious level. Like we did have this conversation many, many years ago. It's like a signal of safety. It's like, oh, they don't have like a weapon again. It's like a primal thing, but they don't have a weapon in their hand. They're not trying to hurt me. They're giving their hand as like an extension of vulnerability and trust And so that makes sense. Why that would be that important to you? That's cool. Anything else that you would add about, kind of the impact on your relationships? I would say the intentionality of approaching relationships. So I'm just now entering into a relationship where I'm like, ok, I'm on my end. I'm like, 1000% positive. This is the person I want to marry and then having that hesitancy of, well, I've met lots of people who were wrong, who may have had that same thought. So how could this be different or how can I better prepare myself? Because, I mean, the last thing I want to do is think of what kind of letter would I write in an annulment to try like annulment process to say that I didn't know or that I wasn't prepared and I don't want to ever be in that position, you know, I mean, it's just, it's interesting because I, I mean, I didn't really know the annulment process until I met someone who had gone through it. And they had to have, they had to write their own witness statement, but they also had to have friends, either the person like the best man or someone at the wedding party or just someone who knew them intimately, they have to write in a statement as well to support that. Let's explain that a little bit for people who don't know what we're talking about. So, I annulment is saying that valid marriage was never, is it valid or sacramental marriage? Sacramental marriage was never created or I don't know what the right term there is. It never, it never take place. And so there was like an appearance, but there was some substance was missing, something was lacking essentially. And that's a longer conversation of like, well, what are the different property or what are the different things that need to be present? That's a separate conversation. But in this context, we're talking about, yeah, when you go through that process, you're essentially trying to explain why you think there were those things that were lacking that did not allow you to enter into a sacramental marriage. So that's what you're talking about when you're writing that statement. Yes. And I can't remember if it was in a movie or if I heard a story about some kind of mobster or gangster or something. I, I remember a story though that each time this person had gotten married that he would write a letter explaining that he really had no intention of being faithful, didn't want to marry this person, but wanted the appearance of it to be a sacramental. So they wrote a letter prior to the sacrament taking place so that when they wanted to get a divorce, they could because they had written this letter beforehand. And so I think that's kind of where I can't remember where this came from. But when I heard of that. I was like, man, it's that easy. It really is the intentionality of it. So I don't ever want to put myself into a position where I have to think back on a time that was positive because I don't think anyone really looks back at their, their wedding in that time of marriage prep thinking I should not get married. I mean, I think there are people and if that's the case, then there is grounds for annulment because obviously that is indicative of some kind of pressure or there was something withholding and not allowing them to express their full free will in that. And obviously, that's a condition for it. But thinking how, how best can I prepare myself for this to know that this is a good decision and not just a good decision, but a real decision, one that has firm grounding like I'm not just standing on sand. And so now like I'm going through a book that says, you know, 100 and one questions before you get engaged. And it's really because you've mentioned how helpful it's been. We've only gone through eight questions and we this has been weeks and the conversations end up being more than an hour multiple times. I've cried just because some of them are really difficult to have to think of because you have to, you're explaining things that you don't want to shed light on. But if you're going to be spending your life with someone. There's a lot of things you need to shed light on and to make sure that, you know, that you are entering in this with a full and free knowledge of someone and that's so difficult and, and I'm not sure that my parents had that at all. And so I think that's something that from seeing an unhealthy example of a marriage thinking how can I prevent that or guard, not prevent it, but guard myself against that. And I think a really good step to guard yourself against that is to do the really hard work before you initially say yes, I'll marry you. I love that. And it's really tough. Like we've only gone through eight questions and it's been like nine hours of us talking and like I said, I mean, it's, it's emotionally really good, but afterwards I feel so much better, like it's just, it's not a weight off my shoulders. It's not as if I'm withholding anything. It's just being intentional about the reason we're asking these questions is because we are discerning if we should get married or not. And so I think it's so important. So what are some examples of the questions just for anyone who's thinking like, yeah, I could really use that in my relationship. Like maybe they're in a dating relationship or maybe they even are engaged and they're trying to, you know, further decide discern is this really the right person for me because that really is what engagement is. It's a time of like further sermon. So I'm just curious. Yeah, what that book is like and what some of the questions are? Yeah, I'll just go through the first question was great because obviously it opens up a space for the further questions. The first question is what makes it easy for you to be vulnerable and open and what makes it difficult? Obviously, that's very intentional is the first question because you want to create a space where you are willing to be vulnerable and open. Because if you're not, then you shouldn't go through this book. Like if you can't create that or they can't provide that or they're not willing to work on providing that, then you've got a problem. Yeah. So if you can't make it through question one, you have got a problem like that's a big red flag right there. If you, if your answer is I'm not willing to be vulnerable in front of you, do not proceed until you, you address that. Um One that was very difficult for me. Uh Was the question, how do you maintain healthy interdependence? So I've been on my own for so long. I can move myself from house to house, all by myself. I can do fixing things around my house all by myself. I can do a budget all by myself. There's so many things that I'm completely capable as a human being to do all by myself and you just have the temperament to just being a very independent person like me, I, I've always, I've always had that. Like, if I see something that needs done, I'm just going to do it and even if I think someone else could help me with it, if I think it's going to take them longer to do it, I'd rather be more efficient and do it myself. So it's very tough to say, ok, how am I going to actually allow this person to enter into my world and me give up something and allow them to do something for me. Even, even like how I put groceries away in the refrigerator, the simple thing, you know, it's something simple or how I fold a towel. I'm so used to doing it the exact way I have done it for so many years. And now I'm going to not only give up that desire for how I've always done it, I'm going to allow someone else to do it for me or they're going to allow me to do something for them. Like the, the humbling aspect of that. I mean, it's even just ironing someone's shirt for them, you know, like everyone's capable, not everyone, I guess, I don't know that for a fact, but many people are capable of ironing their own things but allowing someone else to serve you in that way. And that's something that I think is very profound. I've always wanted and I have a very strong desire to serve others and act like act of service. I think it cannot be understood. I think it's a great thing and it's something we should all practice. Not because it's our love language just because we should do that. We should sacrifice that because it's, it's saying that you're worth my time, you're worth this effort. I think it's extremely important. So this question, I think we, I think we talked about this one question for two hours and I was bawling because I was like, I like, that's one thing I'm so petrified of is that I'm not going to know how to give something up even though I want to, I desperately want your help. I want you to be able to do these things for me because I want to be able to receive that love from you in that way. And it would be great. I'm just afraid that I'm not going to be willing to actually give it up to allow you to do that whether that's my pride or just anxiety popping up because it's something different and I have to get used to it. That was a really tough question. Yeah. No. That makes so much sense that I could see the, this book being a great conversation starter and it gets to the root of, you know, so many of those foundational things that you want to be on the same page. On when it comes to at least to know kind of what to expect moving forward. So, wow, I love that and I could see how that would be super, super helpful. So, anything else before? Yeah, I would say there's one more question, that's a beginning question that was really profound and I didn't limit it. I, when I read this, you'll know that there's a one specific sense of this statement, but I took it in a different direction. Obviously, that's just if there's one direction, I'm always going to go a different one. So what have you learned from previous relationships that will make you a better spouse uh for someone at this time? And so when we hear the word relationship, we're thinking romantic relationships, I didn't take it that way. I thought of how, what's my relationship as being a daughter? What's my relationship as being a sibling? What's my relationship as being a friend? What's my relationship as being, you know, beloved daughter of God? What have I learned from those relationships that make me a better person to make me a better spouse? And that was, I mean, that was tough, like just actually thinking and reflecting on that because I mean, like, yeah, I think it was so great. Yeah, I do, I do think I'm great. I think I'm a wonderful person. I think I'm a worthwhile person. But what has helped me to get there? And it is a very humbling experience to actually reflect on the ways you haven't been a great friend or you have missed opportunities to serve others. And so thinking of that and thinking, how has this made me a better person now, or how is it going to make me a better person in the future as someone's spouse? A tough question? That is a tough question. So good though. I'm glad you brought that up and I think it's an excellent resource for everyone listening, especially people who are entering or in a relationship to help, you know, further discern if this is something that could turn into marriage that could go down that road before we transitioned into talking about trauma. I'm curious, what were a few things, the two or three things that helped you cope with the pain that you were dealing with and also to heal? Like, what were some things that helped you cope and heal? I think first and foremost, not being in the environment. And I can't even say how it helped me because I have no idea what it was like because I wasn't there. But I can anticipate what it might have been like because I can reflect on what our family like was like when I was there. You know, the all the arguments and things like that and unhealthy behaviors and patterns not to say that there weren't some healthy ones too. Of course, there were. But I mean, we're kind of primarily looking at the ones that are more unhealthy. So I think the most powerful thing that was helpful was the fact that I was not physically there. And then I, where I was at college, I had, I had my faith community. I had my friends, I had sports, I had my classes, I had positive things that were actively engaging me instead. So I only had to really think about going home for the major holidays or for break and I imagine things probably would have turned out very, very differently if I had been there, if you were in the midst of it. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Um, and that's something that we recommend from time to time. If things are so intense and toxic at home, it's good to have a breather. It's good to have some space. It can, it can be very, very helpful in terms of, yeah, just helping you not be as emotionally distressed and maybe acting out in different ways trying to deal with the pain that you're experiencing. So I'm right there with you and I think even beyond that, uh, now that I think about it more, but if you really care about your Children, the way that you imagine yourself to care about your Children, if you're going through a divorce and there is no way for them to be physically somewhere else like they're not off to college, they are there making sure that they do have the positive relationships and positive outlets and that you encourage them to maintain their level of participation if not increase it. I think that's something to really think about. Obviously, I, I can't say one way or the other. Um, but I do think that would, I mean, it would only serve to help, you know, to make sure that you're encouraging and not, not limiting it because you're fighting or you're having a bad day. So you're just going to cancel a play date or cancel that sport or cancel that practice. You know, I think encouraging it more and making the effort more to ensure that they have all these, what we call protective factors in their life. Um So maintaining those, if not increasing them for your Children, that makes sense. Was there anything else that was healing for you? It was a long road of healing, you know. Yeah, there's, I would say it all comes for me personally, it all comes back to prayer. And I, during that time, I felt most at peace when I would be able to go to daily mass. I mean, we were very fortunate that the Franciscan University to be able to have three different masses to choose from. Now, it's four, I think masses to choose from on campus. So being able to just offer, I would go first thing in the morning. Um And I did that, I think the majority of the time I would I would go to usually would always for sure. It would always be lent. I would always make sure. Ok. No, this is, I have to go on them but then I would just continue it and it would just kind of just stuck. So then when I got back I'd be like, oh, I would just go anyways. Um, so at that time I hadn't always gone to adoration routinely, but I always went to mass. And so just having that, having that way to start my day and pray the rosary. I mean, I don't, there's no way we can understate that. I mean, it's the source and sum of our, our faith. So allowing yourself to be drawn in and, and knowing that you're not always going to feel good when you go, just the action of choosing to go, even when you feel like a wretch, even when you feel like there's no way that you could even force a smile from your face. Like the greatest effort you're making is getting yourself to get out of bed. You have to remember you by doing that. You're telling yourself more than you think, by choosing to get out of bed, by choosing to maintain your commitments, by choosing to engage in mass to, by choosing to engage in prayer. You are in a very real way telling yourself just how much you are worth it. And so when you had people in your life that maybe weren't telling you you were worth it or that's your perception of it, doing those little things for yourself or you might not be actively telling yourself you're worth it. But you really are in a behavior sense. Ok. Now, that makes sense. And that almost goes further than words for a lot of people at least, which I, which I like, I want to transition into trauma. I don't know, we don't have too much time left, but I'd love to know we've talked about trauma a bit on the show. But I'm curious, uh what's the definition of trauma that you uh for me, the definition of trauma is having something that stresses your resources beyond their capacity. So it could be because trauma can happen. I mean, usually we think of it in a negative sense like post traumatic stress disorder, we think of that, but in a, a lighter sense, it could happen when something really good happens. Like anything that really stresses all of your resources to the point where you do not have the mental, physical emotional resources to continue on at the, you know, maintaining the same level of behavior that you were the same level of competence that you were to me in that sense, it is a trauma. So it could come even from the birth up a new child, that's something that is so gloriously wonderful. But for that short period of time, it can also be very traumatic on us because it is pushing through every single resource you have. And if you don't have additional people to make up for the resources that you're now stressing like family or friends or community, then it can become a problem very quickly. But when you do have those and you're not stretching out every single resource you have till it's bare minimum or its absence, then you're just going to remember that time as, yeah, it was stress when it was hard but it, it was wonderful and I want to have another one. But when you don't have that, your idea is no, like having another one that, that becomes the most difficult thing that you don't want, you want to do. But at the same time, you don't because you know, the stress and the trauma that is going to bring you because your resources are just going to be blood dry again. Ok. That's super interesting. I've never heard anyone that it get a totally different, totally different one, but I think it becomes more applicable to many more things. I wouldn't, I would say my definition. There's definitely some capital t traumas that we would say. But I would say it really acknowledges a lot more of the lower case t traumas that we can experience throughout just day to day life. I'm not saying that it's gonna have a lasting impact, but I would say that I would qualify it as it was one, it does affect you. No, that makes sense. I want to go deep here. What happens inside our bodies, inside our brains when a traumatic event occurs. And I know it's a big conversation. But yeah, let's chip away at it. So, I mean, there's lots of different theories. I mean, essentially we engage in our fight or flight response. And so usually initially, we are startled by something that's the shock of what took place, the event itself and then we can go into our fight or flight and how someone's going to respond to that, it's everyone can be different. And many times we can be shocked, I think by how we react because we can say, you know, well, I always think I, you know, I would be someone who reacts this way if I was given that situation, that might not be the case. You know, it might take you actually being in that scenario to realize how you would respond and it could be completely different than your personality. I found that out the hard way when I had to go through my own trauma, I think, knowing, realizing that I'm a person who's probably going to freeze when everything about my personality, if you met me would tell you that I'm fighting 100%. And so, I mean, that was really even that in itself realizing that and reflecting and I was like, wow, that was in itself very traumatic and very hurtful. Like thinking, I actually for a period of time, thought less of myself because I was like, man, you rose, you didn't fight the way you thought you'd always fight and maybe because you, maybe you weren't capable, who knows? Like I don't, I can't completely say everything to that state, but all I know is that I, I totally froze and that was not, that's not who I am. That in day to day life, that's not who anyone would think I am. And so you learn a lot about yourself. So then after that, the fight or flight, then we have, you know, we, we can go into a freeze and then we have what we consider an altered state of consciousness. So that could be where they, you know, we could think of it as you're in shock or you have an out of body experience as if you are, you know, detached from yourself, watching it happen like you're a witness to it now, um that's a very common thing for people to report happening. And then after that, we, we kind of start to return. And during that also that altered state of consciousness or that out of body experience, you're really not aware or you may not be aware of the physical bodily sensations that are going on. Like you might not feel it like some people who don't realize that their limb was just cut off and they don't feel anything until they actually look at it and then it clicks with their mind that your arm is missing. You should feel extraordinary pain right now and they don't feel it until they actually look and acknowledge it because they're in such an altered state of consciousness that it takes them coming back down. And when they actually are in a place that self repair is the, is the very, what we consider the very end of it. When they start getting into that, they can act. That's when they'll start all the body sensations and thoughts come back and you could be capable of feeling. So between the out of body or the altered state of consciousness and repair, we can go into what we consider just an obedience state. And this, you see a lot with first responders, someone comes to rescue you, they give you directions and you're just going to blindly follow them. But this can be something that is for better or for worse. Uh because it could be someone who is harming you that you're now obedient to because you're just in that you're not fully capable of your own free will in a sense because you're just, you're not in your right mind and that's just a response from it. And until you're in a space where you can be safe, whether that's emotionally or mentally or physically, you're not gonna really get out of that, you're just gonna be listening to the directives that are given to you and God willing, it's going to be through someone who has your best interest and is there to protect you, like someone, you know, officials out of the police or fire department or, um, an EMT. And once you're able to do that, then you can kind of go into the, the self repair. But even the self repair doesn't always mean that it's gonna be positive. It can be something that, and I don't even really want to say negative. It could be something that is life impairing might be a better way of saying it. I mean, we could become more obsessive compulsive with things. I'd say that's probably a very common one. I, I saw that in my own life. That was definitely the path that my trauma took. I mean, it could be with how we eat, it could be with how we exercise. It could be with different addictions. I mean, usually it's very behavioral. That's, that is the one theme of the self is that if it's going to become an issue in how you live your life, it's going to usually come out in the behavior of some kind. And for me, it was definitely the obsessive compulsive of needing everything to be within my control because I wasn't in control and I had a sense of obeying someone that I did not want to because I froze because I wasn't able to fight or fight. And some of that and some of that, when you, when we say fight or flight, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm physically fighting you or that I'm physically, you know, it could be that you're stuck and you freeze because you are physically not able to fight. I mean, and that's a very real thing that people need to acknowledge that sometimes we physically cannot fight and we physically cannot flee. And so our body just start, we just go into a freeze kind of state. So when we come out of it, our self repair could be that we are now in need of absolute control over every single piece of our life. And for me that could have, that came down to how I clean. It came down to how I organize things. It came down to how I put away silverware, it came down to how I fold things, how I organize my closet, everything had to be absolutely perfect. And if it wasn't, then I would get extremely frustrated and I would be easily become angry. Yeah. Um And I usually wouldn't be angry at myself like it would show up in some other relationship, like I would get set off by something little. But it's really because I couldn't keep this, this one thing to be exactly the way I wanted it to. It makes so much sense. And now I like how you said, the self repair is really just a way to kind of feel some level of normalcy back in your life or to get yourself out of a maybe super anxious or super depressive state, like an emotional equilibrium, which makes sense. And there's some really unhealthy behavior that actually does that. And so that's what you're saying, that it serves a purpose. We don't want to continue down that road, but it's there for a reason. And that's often what kind of brings us back to that. And you might not even recognize it. Like a lot of people with mine didn't recognize the obsessive and compulsive behaviors that I was doing. They just thought I was super organized and super on top of my life, like, like type a personality and really, no, my personality is, yes, I'm a very organized person. I prefer to have my life organized. I prefer to anticipate my day to day. Like, I prefer to anticipate three months from now, to be honest. But I can allow to have dishes pile up. I mean, usually not very much because I don't, I have a routine and a habit that I generally don't let that happen or I could go a day where I don't make my bed even though generally I usually do every morning. So it could be things that we see as good behaviors or good traits or things, you know, sense of perfection that we want. But it, it's, it's unhealthy because it was impairing my life that it was affecting how I saw the world. It was affecting how I was able to interact with other people because I couldn't do it. And that's, that's the thing to watch out for, for people. OK. That's good. All right. I want to explain and kind of this whole model one more time and we can use me as a guinea pig. OK. So, so I remember when my mom uh I talk about this sometimes on the show. So forgive me if this is repetitive for some of you listening. But I remember when my mom broke the news that they were, my parents were getting divorced, I was 11 and it was so shocking, like it literally shattered my world. It was really difficult to hear and all. Yeah, I remember that that sensation of like being startled, like kind of looking in disbelief at my mom. Like is this real, is this like actually happening? And then having the reaction of just like crying and, and feeling really angry kind of simultaneously? And so all I could do in that moment was flee. Actually, I remember, yeah, just going hiding in the closet to where like no one could find me. And I was just like kind of suddenly sobbing and just like really, really, really angry. Yeah, kind of like that. Maybe I don't know if that at that point, I was having the psychotic body experience, but I can see how these stages play out. So with that example, if you would kind of explain the model again to make it a little bit more concrete. Yeah. So in, in, in just hearing what you said, so obviously, the startle is very obvious when you hear the news and your fight or flight was very obvious when you said you went into a closet and you started crying with it. Um So the altered state of consciousness would come in or how we would in within this model describe based on the details, solely the details that you gave me. The question is this real that going through your mind and having that doubt and that would be considered for this model and altered state of consciousness that in in this therapeutic approach, we would address that would be what we used for the alternate of conscious. Is that just sense of gosh, how could this be real? How could this be my real life like that is alter state of conscious? Doesn't mean you have to be like hallucinating, you know, it doesn't have to mean anything like that. It could just be that, that sense of doubting the reality of the situation in a very simple way that makes sense. Now, for the sense of automatic obedience and the self repair, based on the details of the story provided, I wouldn't be able to say that this was, you know what that was what was going on. I imagine though that some of the body sensations or the attempt to self repair for you. If you were putting yourself in a closet away from other people crying, you probably, or may have very well had your arms wrapped around your knees rocking yourself as a way of attempting to comfort yourself within the tears. Yeah, that's what it was for sure. That's, that's something that we in an attempt. If you always grew up knowing that was a pattern of comfort for something that brought you comfort, then that very well could have been the self repair that you were attempting to self soothe. It may not have been what actually brought the repair and usually it isn't because it's, it can happen in a very all these things can happen in the span of five minutes or they could happen in the span of five years. We just never, you never know like someone could be um like there's people who are all of a sudden in a clinical sense they have are presenting with schizophrenia when really that's just an altered state of consciousness. And once the trauma is resolved, the schizophrenia may very well go away or diminish to a significant degree where it's no longer clinical, like clinically impairing their life. And schizophrenia again, just for this thing where you're going to be having disorganized thoughts, you might not even be able to string a sentence together in a way that's cognizant to other people. You probably will have either audio visual hallucinations, you may smell things that aren't there. You may have delusions, either of gran or you may think you're Jesus Christ, you may think that everyone is out to get you different things. So it's definitely you are out of touch with reality. I see kind of a break from reality. That makes sense, right? Which is why that would fall in some people who are just in an altered state of consciousness from a significant trauma may present with schizophrenia. Hm. Wow. Ok. I didn't know that that's profound and yeah, and that makes sense with the example I gave how maybe not all the stages are in there. But if I were to continue telling this story, I know for me, one of the things that I fell into which I've shared openly in this show was, um, yeah, pornography became kind of a self repair because it was a distraction. It was something that was brought relief. It brought pleasure, obviously, it brought, yeah, just kind of a way to like emotionally regulate. And so I can, I totally see that as an attempt to self repair as well. But yeah, I don't, I guess the obedience thing I didn't see as much or I'm having a hard time like putting my head around that one. It might not be that every single one of these the phases might not be present in every trauma, right? Or you might not even be able to identify them. You simply we don't always know. That makes sense. I can say I had kind of some weird situations where I've pulled up on like car accidents for some reason, like a good amount of them and try to help the people, like hop out and help. And in those moments you can tell, like people are like kind of during the headlights sort of look that startle and then yeah, they'll do anything you tell them at that point, like if you tell them to like, stop, if you tell them to get out, like whatever, it's, it is profound. So you can clearly see that like anyone who's ever been in that situation or maybe you've seen it on TV or something, you can see how, yeah, that obedience kicks in and hopefully it's with a person, like you said, who's trustworthy because then that's a really good thing. I doubt you could talk to any firefighter EMT or police officer that has not experienced that during, you know, approaching, um, some traumatic experience that someone is going through. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. Anything else you doubt about the motto in terms of the phase, the phase in itself? No, it is a very, I would say it's a difficult model to go through. Uh So part of the premise is that it's not just discussing these different phases. So what we would have someone do is draw them out and that can be extremely difficult. I mean, not that it can be, it will be, it will be very difficult to do this. However, I have seen people who I had a client who every single minute of every single day was scheduled because she presented, she had sexual trauma for when she was less than two years old and she presented with significant O CD. And so to the point where she wouldn't even allow herself to go to the bathroom until it was time on her schedule for her to go to the bathroom. And so her day was so rigid because she lacked so much control in her life. And that's just how it presented. So it was extremely difficult. And I worked with her for a couple of years and we went through and by the grace of God, she was willing to give this a try no matter how difficult it was. And we went through and she drew out these different stages for different traumas. Then we put them up on a board and I retell the story back to them, but we tell it in a way that usually you put something over their eyes so that they can focus with just one eye. And so that that will help them see it in a different it, it changes your perspective. So it alters the way our brain takes in that information by kind of providing almost like a tunnel vision of it. And so it also provides detachment because when you look through a telescope, things can look, they look far away. They're not, they're not completely present to you. So it's you're telling the story back so that I'm an audience to my own story now. And by doing that, it allows us to close the story because generally what we're seeing is that these different mental health disorders are presenting because that story was not resolved. So when we're, when we're able to start a story and end the story or the trauma, we're able to resolve it mentally and they can file that away and put it away and not have to bring it back out unless they willingly want to and then they can move on with their life. And so this was, this was someone who from every minute being scheduled to not having to schedule anything and living her life freely being able to engage in relationships. I mean, it was a significant transformation but it was extremely hard. I mean, there were some days where even I didn't want to go through working through the therapy with her because it was, I could see it was such a struggle for her. But I also I didn't want to see it's not pleasant content, you know, asking someone to draw out some of the most disgusting things about human behavior and human corruption. It's tough. I mean, it's excruciating. Yeah, but knowing that it's also extremely humbling that this person trusted me so much to help them change their own life and to share their story. I mean, it's, it's, I think I'm one of the most humbling things to be a trauma therapist, I bet. Yeah. Wow. Profound. And that was my next question. Actually, some people I think, feel that healing isn't even possible that the hand they've been dealt in life is just what they have to deal with. They have to carry, carry on. They have to do the best they can that there's no way to really improve. It's just kind of get through survive and, and I get that, I get that feeling. But yeah, is it possible? I mean, you just said it is absolutely, it's not easy. It's possible. It is not easy for some, it will be easier than others. I think as long as you are seeing yourself as a victim and only a victim and you're putting yourself in that box or you're putting yourself in a box of just simply being a survivor when you make it too simple. But it's on the more negative side, you will struggle more significantly to improve or to get healthy again if you remove that and you allow yourself to see that. Yes, this happened to me. It does not define me. It is not happening again to me right now. And so I have today to make different choices and to make a different life for myself when you start that process. And you're open to it and you're willing to add a different adjective to your character or your identity that's not victim. And that's not simply Survivor. You open yourself to such a wide range of choices. And I think people, and it's scary. It's also, I mean, because in a sense you're shedding that, that old identity and that can be very scary for people to do because that's all you've known. That's all you in that sense of survival. That's all you've had to cling to, to just make it from day to day. But when we're willing and I'm not saying this is an overnight process or it's like a statement you make one minute and you're like at 12 o'clock, I'm no longer a survivor. 12 01. I'm moving forward with my life. This is something that happens over a year. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, there's no, there's no magic timeline and that, I think that is something that's most difficult for people to know that. And some people can do this on their own. I mean, I did not, I've been trained as a therapist. I did not go through therapy myself. And so in that sense, it took me many, many more years than it could have and I completely acknowledge that. But it was really my pride that was not willing to, I was not willing to humble myself. And so now that's what makes it so much more profound when people are willing to humble themselves to me because I'm like, wow, these people are superheroes like they are doing something that I was not even willing to do or that I could not bring myself to do. That's amazing. Yeah. So I think, I think healing is possible, moving forward is possible. It's extremely difficult work and it has to start with a decision to put 1 ft in front of the other and having a willingness to walk away from a past identity and find and forge a new one. Honestly, you have to forge a new one and realize that. I mean, I think you're a great person. I think you're a wonderful man and I would tell everyone. Oh, yeah, he's one of the best men I know. Like you guys really get to know Joey. Like he's so great. Like, but if I was to learn something about you at this point in time about your past that I didn't know it could be something that you did. That was terrible. It could be something that was terrible that happened to you. It could be something that was great. All I'm doing is learning new information about you. It doesn't change who you are, doesn't change what I think of you. I'm simply learning new information that I didn't have, but that goes into who you are today, but it's not you. It's something about you, but it's not you. And that's an extremely difficult thing to move forward from and, and, and I'm saying that from experience is that for a long time, I mean, I thought of myself as you know, I'm going to be in this box. I'm not, there's nothing I can do about it. And then I realized that I'm focusing on the wrong thing. Like, yes, this something happened to me, it was difficult, but there's so many other things in the world that I could do. I could choose, choose to go bowling to take bowling lessons and become a better bowler like something so simple, but it would help me improve myself and it would give me hope that I can get better. Like it doesn't have to start out with, with your emotional or psychological health. It could start off with something as simple as trying a new skill and just seeing yourself get better and seeing yourself dedicate that time. You're again, you're telling yourself that you're worth it. You're telling yourself that you can improve. You're telling yourself there is hope for something to get better and that you can take a pile of nothing or a pile of not so great things for not wanting to use other terms. But you're telling yourself that you, you can make yourself clean again, you can and if not, and if not clean again, you can tie dye yourself to be different and present. You know, you become renewed in that sense. And so in that sense, you are still cleaning for a bit. So, but it is tough. I won't lie. It is extremely difficult and it takes time and I think that's why most people don't do it. It's like those barriers that prevent them from doing it. But no, I've been through the therapy actually. And it is very helpful and I had worked through a lot of it on my own or with different therapists, not using that model. but going through it is very, very helpful. It opened my eyes to things that I never even saw that were there the whole time. And I was like, wow, that's like affecting me on a daily basis. But yeah, it's crazy how we kind of continue living out those stories even though they are years in the past. But like they feel in the moment like they're present, it's wild and so super, super helpful. I, I love how you mentioned like the whole victim mentality because that's something that's such a hot topic right now. And I think there's an important distinction that I just wanted to mention for everyone. There are like real victims. And I know you would agree with this victims of, you know, circumstances like they're in a situation and they're victimized and that's horrible and they deserve help. And there's a reason that they feel victimized. There's a reason that they are a victim and you know, you need to move through that and you need to grieve you need to do all that stuff, but you're not meant to remain a victim. And that's what I think is so toxic and so harmful in our culture right now. Is that so many people? I think all of us in one degree or another fall into this choose to remain victims. We choose to put ourselves in that box and then therefore we feel stuck, we can't heal, we can't grow or we feel we can't heal. We feel we can't grow and we're like unable to everything. We feel powerless. We maybe point at other people for our problems. And by definition, then if we're pointing at them for our problems, they must have the solution or so we think therefore, I can't do anything myself. And so one of the things I challenge the young people I mentor is OK, you might not have caused the problem, but you can take ownership of the solution and you can implement that in your life and you can grow beyond this. And so that whole idea of post traumatic growth is so real. And I've seen it like I'm preparing to talk right now on this topic and it's not fully ready. So I won't give you guys it. But there's insane stories of people. There's this one marine who um learned his story and he, I think Rob Jones is his name. If I'm getting that right. He fought in Afghanistan and Iraq and he was an expert at spotting roadside bombs, IE Ds and while he was sweeping for bombs at one point so his teams could like move through. Um he stepped on a bomb and it went off and he lost both his legs like he had to get him amputated above his knees. And for most people, like, you know, rightly so that is traumatizing. He is very much so a victim, but he just refused to remain a victim. And so what he did is he got into like the Paralympic Games and got like a bronze medal on the world stage. He was the first double amputee to ride across the country on a bike. He went through if I'm getting the numbers, right. He ran 31 marathons in 31 days in 31 different cities. Like it's profound. So I think people like that. It's incredible to look at and see, wow, maybe you don't need to go run 31 marathons without any legs. It's amazing. But certainly you can, you know, do other things that are going to help you to heal and to grow and to kind of push through that. So it's, it's amazing to see that, you know, we don't have to remain victims and maybe we were victims, but we don't have to remain victims. I would add one more thing to that. So when I also say victim, being a victim can be a state of fact, right? Maintaining a victim mentality is what is so harmful. If we think of Max Milling Colby, he was a victim. He certainly did not have a victim mentality. He maintained his ability to serve others and not despair. He could have chosen differently, but he didn't, but he was a victim. But he did not maintain the victim mentality. And the victim mentality is when you combine the two of them, that is what becomes so harmful. That makes sense. And the story we're talking about Max Mill and Kobe, the quick version is he was a Polish priest who was locked up in a Nazi concentration camp in Auschwitz. And one night, some prisoners escaped. And the Nazis being who they were chose to I think kill 10 men if I'm remembering the story right, randomly as a punishment for those men escaping. And there was one man uh French France, Francis guy, I think his name. And anyway, he had a family, he had a wife, he had Children and he was just like broke down crying that he was going to be killed. And so Maxim and Kobe, this priest who again, very much so a victim by circumstance, he actually stepped out of line, which in itself was just like incredibly brave thing to do because they could have just killed him on the spot. He stepped out of line to offer his life in exchange. And the Nazi officers were so shocked by this that they actually honored his wish they didn't kill the guy who they could have, they could have just said, oh, you want to die? Ok, great. We're gonna do 11 instead of 10. Um They actually allowed that other man to not be killed and he actually got out of the concentration camp years later and was able to reunite with his family on some level. And um and then Max Million was killed. And so it's a profound story of like going rising above that, you know, victim circumstance and escaping and overcoming the victim mentality. So it's a beautiful story as well. Patty, thank you so much for coming on the show. I want to do this. Yeah. And it's been a long time coming and I want to give you the final word. What words of encouragement would you give to someone who, who feels broken, who feels stuck in life because of everything they've been through, especially if their parents got divorced or there's slaughter dysfunction at home, what encouragement would you give them? And the task is not knowing what to say. It's annoying. Which one you know to go go to. I would say you, you are worth it. So the boundaries that you want to set up for yourself, your healthy boundaries with your parents, with your family, they are worth it and they do need to be protected. And in the sense that I say that I very early on told my parents that I was not to be a go between that I was not going to say, oh, tell them this or tell them they owe me this or bring them this paperwork. Shutting that down. You are worth that as difficult as it is to tell that to a parent, you are worth it and you will be better for doing it, not allowing your parent to or both of them could be one could be both to not talk negatively about the other one in your presence, whether it's directly to you or to one of their friends or to a stranger, putting your foot down for those things because you don't want that to happen. You are worth it. So those healthy, healthy boundaries for you to have put your foot down as strong as you can and, and voice, you don't even have to voice your concern. You just say no, you need to stop doing this because it's not OK. I will not allow it. You are worth it. So many great lessons from Patty's expertise in her story. And if you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neural biological level. It makes your brain healthier and writing your story also is healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier. And also it gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling too. So how do you do? It? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash story. There's a form on that page that guide you in telling a short version of your story and then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. And so go ahead and share your story now at restored ministry dot com slash story, as discussed in the interview, one tactic to heal is actually find someone who can guide you. That's where a counselor coach or spiritual director can come in. But often it's difficult and time consuming to find someone like that. Thankfully, at Restored, we're building a network of counselors and coaches and spiritual directors that we vet that we trust that we recommend. And by using our network, it's just going to save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor coach or spiritual director. You also find a competent professional that we, again, we've vetted, we trust and recommend. And so how do you make use of that? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. Fill out the form. It should take about 60 seconds and then we'll contact you once we find a counselor coach or spiritual director, uh, that we recommend at the moment we're still building this list. Uh So if you want to jump on the waitlist, I invite you to go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. But you might be listening to this at a later date and so it might be fully ready at that point again, go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them seriously, It takes about 30 seconds to just message them this episode or another episode that you think would be helpful for them. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.