#129: What Does It Mean to Be Healthy & Whole? | Matthew Rudolph
We talk a lot about being healthy and whole, but what exactly does it mean to be healthy and whole?
We dive into that topic in this episode with a man who’s been accomplished as a CEO but has also worked hard on himself as a husband and father, plus:
Why honesty and vulnerability are essential for healing and growth, and how forgiveness has been very healing for him
The 4 stages of growth required to love well
A resource for leaders, pastors, and seminarians
Email Matt: matt@chrismpriest.com
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
Joey: [00:00:00] We talk a lot about being healthy and whole, but what exactly does it mean to be healthy and whole? It's important we get this right because if we don't, we might end up aiming for a target that isn't even possible to hit. And so in this episode, we dive into that topic with a man who's been an accomplished CEO, but who's also worked hard on himself as a husband and a father.
We discuss things like what honesty and vulnerability are essential for healing and growth. My guest shares how forgiveness has been one of the most healing things for him. We discuss. How to best measure how healthy you are, not just physically healthy, but your health overall as a person. We get into big topics like what's the point of life, and we talk about the four stages of growth that are required to love well.
And finally, my guest offers a resource for leaders, pastors, priests, and seminarians. Stay with us. [00:01:00] Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken family, so you can break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panarelli. This is episode 129.
We're so happy that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard a ton of great feedback. One listener said this, I have found your podcast episodes very healing, and I've passed on to friends and even seminarians and newly ordained priests. God continues to heal me of my broken childhood, and your podcast has been a big and safe place to go to receive it.
Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been helpful and even healing. We do it for you. Today's episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films. In a recent survey by Adobe, 98 percent of Gen Z and 91 percent of millennials said that video is their top content choice. And that's not really surprising, but if you run a business or a ministry, are you taking advantage of that?
Are you using video content, especially in your marketing? If you're like most of us, you know, you need to create video content, but you don't know where to start. And it can honestly leave you feeling kind of overwhelmed to the point where [00:02:00] you just give up. On it altogether. And you just go back to what you know, to what's comfortable, even if that's not what's best for your business or your ministry, that's where Blackstone films can help you.
They're a Catholic film and video production company that creates films that make you feel they can create things like trailers, promo videos, and commercials, social media videos. Documentaries, um, fundraising videos and courses. We actually filmed two video courses with them, which we're still giving away for free.
Um, and we had an excellent experience with them and their team, and you can see the value, you can see the quality for yourself on our website if you'd like. And so whatever you need, Blackstone is obsessed about. Helping you not just create video content, but create a clear win for your business or your ministry, such as fundraising for your ministry, selling a course, getting leads for your business, getting students to sign up for your school, promoting your event, and so much more.
Blackstone has reached millions of people around the globe with their videos, and they can help you too. And so if you want to view past projects, view the services that they offer, or maybe even schedule a free console, initial consult with them, just go to blackstonefilms. [00:03:00] co. Nat. com, Blackstonefilms. co, or just click on the link in the show notes.
My guest today is Matthew Rudolph. Matt is a husband and father of four children in 2015. He joined the founders of Amazing Parish, Pat Lencioni, a famous business author, consultant, and John Martin, and spent the next eight years leading coaching and content efforts for nearly a thousand priests and bishops.
across the country. He most recently served as the executive director of Amazing Parish and recently stepped down for helping priests integrate human formation, leadership, and healing. In co founding Chrism, which he'll tell you more about in the show, he hopes to equip even more clergy with practical skills and confidence so they can become the leaders and spiritual fathers that they are called to be.
One disclaimer, we do talk about God and faith in this episode. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to the show for a while knows that we're not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, you're totally welcome here. I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge to you is just listen with an open mind.
Even if you skip or take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit a lot from this [00:04:00] episode. And with that, here's our chat. Matt, welcome to the show. So good to have you, man.
Matt: Thanks, Joey. Great to be here.
Joey: I'm excited to talk about this topic because as we both know, we live in a very broken world. We live in a world that One way to put it would be this.
It's very unhealthy. There's a lot of like unhealthiness in our world on so many levels. And like me, you've had your own journey with brokenness and just kind of going through seasons of unhealthiness. Are there any particular moments in your life where you felt maybe the most broken or the most unhealthy?
Matt: Joey, that is a loaded question because the more that I learn about myself, the more I'm like, oh man, I have so much more work to do. But, uh, the two moments that really come to mind are really my first year of marriage. You know, I had studied theology and philosophy and scripture and I knew a lot of things about, Marriage and, and the beauty of marriage and how to live it out.
I knew it in my head and I even think I knew it in my heart, but I didn't actually practically [00:05:00] know how to do it and how to give a gift of myself. I didn't perhaps have enough self possession and self awareness to be able to do that well. And so my first year of marriage, I was in marriage counseling. I was counseling and counseling for myself and, and I needed help.
I really needed help. And so my wife helped me realize my own brokenness. She didn't do anything wrong. It just in being married, I realized that I didn't have things together in the ways that I thought that I did. And so, yeah, if anyone's listening and they're a year into marriage and like, man, did I fail?
You did not fail. We just need help. And I needed help my first year of marriage. And the second time was, was really, and this is hard to admit and hard to say, but I was probably five years into being a father before I, before I was honest with myself. And could admit that I really didn't enjoy being a father and it was a lot of my own brokenness and my lack of health and my lack of selflessness [00:06:00] and I wasn't able to give to my children in the ways that I wanted to, and it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks, like the father that I wanted to be and dreamt about being in the, you know, the, the wounds that I wanted to heal, like generationally and like how I could give to my kids, I wasn't that father, that wasn't who I was.
Thanks. That's not how I was behaving. I didn't have the patience, the virtue, the love, the care for my children. I had a lot of the things, other things going on in my heart and mind that were distracting me. So, you know, I mean, and it sounds like, wow, what a failure, Matt, you're called to be married and to be a father.
And those are the two things that I realized my brokenness and my, you know, my lack of health and my lack of kind of integration were really those two big, big areas of my life.
Joey: Thank you for sharing so openly, so vulnerably, and man, I can't relate on so many levels. I've totally seen that in my own life.
Like, the areas I think where we're most called to greatness are often the areas where we struggle the most, where we kind of realize our lack. And when I think of, you know, [00:07:00] movies or any sort of story, right? That's the heroic journey of, like, realizing, like, hey, I want this thing. Like you said, I want to be this great father and husband.
I want to, like, break the cycle of brokenness and wounds from the past. But I can't do it. Like I really can't do it on my own. And especially when you come to that realization where it's like, no, like I, I thought I could do it on my own, but I actually really can't do it on my own. Yeah. It's actually a really good and beautiful moment.
And I think, um, that's where we reach out for help. We get those guides, those mentors in our life who help us to kind of win the day and give us the plan we need and, you know, challenge us and all that. Good stuff. And so no, I think it's like, it's such a beautiful moment, but when you're in the midst of it, it's like, this is not beautiful.
This is not fun. It's, it's really grueling. And, uh, and especially on the marriage front, I, yeah, I think, um, one of the things we see through the data about children of divorce is that that's the area of your life that's most impacted by your parents divorce. That's the area of your life that you're typically going to struggle the most in is in your own marriage and your own romantic relationships.
And so, um, [00:08:00] man, I felt that. I felt that, you know, at a deep level in my dating relationships, um, even in my friendships to an extent, um, but especially in marriage, it's like I almost feel, you know, a bit incompetent. I felt a bit incompetent, certainly have gained virtue and grown in those areas, but man, it's, it's grueling, it's hard.
And so I think it's, um, really freeing and helpful. And one of the lessons I've learned from you over the years too, I've, I've known you over the years, I've gotten to know you more lately, um, but I've been observing you from afar. And lately I've Get more of a glimpse into how awesome you are. Um, and I think like that power of just admitting like, yeah, I'm struggling here.
I'm not where I want to be is so, so powerful. Talk about that for a second. Like even just that acknowledgement, like, why is that so powerful? Why is it so helpful?
Matt: You know, Joey, in my life, I don't know all the factors that played into this, but Growing up and even, you know, in high school and college was kind of a break from this.
And then I kind of went back to it after college in many ways, but gosh, I guess the concise way of saying it is admitting your weaknesses to [00:09:00] me was a sign of failure. It was a sign of, I didn't plan well enough. I wasn't disciplined enough. I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't virtuous enough. I wasn't holy enough, fill in the blank.
I wasn't blank enough. And admitting my weaknesses and brokenness meant that I wasn't. And I think that's, that's a lie. That's a lie that I've been really working in my life to overcome and address and allow the Lord to speak truth over those lies. But those are lies that I believe for a very long time.
And so admitting weakness for me showed. Great vulnerability to be hurt and to be, yeah, to be weak, I think, and that's what I associated, you know, admitting that with, you know, I associated admitting my weaknesses with being weak, not good enough, not whatever enough, and Joey, it really is allowing the Lord into that brokenness, and there's actually so much more freedom now to not say I need to hide this and cover it, but to say, let me show you that I'm not fully [00:10:00] together.
And friends and family and wife, Danielle's my wife, like this is broken and I need your help. And, you know, our, our path, our, our vocation is to get each other to heaven. And I need my wife. I need her to become the man that I'm called to be and to be the saint that I'm called to be. And so I think for a long time, I just was in self preservation mode.
And I was too afraid to admit my weaknesses and the areas that I needed help in. And there's been a great freedom in more recent seasons of my life to name those things and to invite others into those areas of brokenness and weakness.
Joey: No, I love that. And I always admired people who are not, you know, kind of addicted to secrecy or to controlling their own image, or at least they get to that point where they're able to be more vulnerable and open.
I remember there was a couple recently who I spoke pretty openly about different struggles they've had and even mistakes they've made as a couple in the past, like individually as a couple too. And um, I remember just like having so much admiration for them and thinking like, wow, you can be so [00:11:00] honest and so open about like what you're going through and where you've messed up.
There's something really great and beautiful. And I think that does lead to transformation. And on that note of transformation, I'm curious, like what transformation or transformations occurred in your life? I know some are ongoing and that's really beautiful, um, that have kind of led you from maybe that.
Yeah. place of struggle to a better spot to where you are today.
Matt: Gosh, I'm a work in progress, Joey. So the other side of transformation, I wouldn't say I'm there, but I think the Lord is transforming parts of my heart and parts of who I am. And, you know, going to counseling was really helpful for me. And what it did is it allowed me to start seeing things as they were.
And to no longer have my blinders up or my perceptions of things or even my self preservation up, like it allowed me to start being honest and vulnerable and seeing things as they were. So that was a huge step of transformation. Instead of seeing myself as completely weak or not good enough or not whatever enough, I started to see, gosh, [00:12:00] there's actually Patterns in my life.
There's people in my life. There's memories in my life that are affecting me and my behavior. And no wonder it's hard for me to, you know, journeying uphill and climbing a mountain without, um, any breaks. And so I think just that counseling allowed me to see things a little more for what they were. It doesn't take away my part.
It doesn't take away You know, my culpability in things, but it did allow me to see things more fully. So that allowed me to actually start working on things and working at the root of things. And so I really was able to start seeing my brokenness, not just through Matthew, the failure, but through like a fuller story and a fuller picture of my context.
And I started to see gaps in my formation. I even started to see gaps in my formation, upbringing as a child and could understand, Oh, this is connected to that. That makes a lot of sense. And I, that was really transformative for me. It allowed me to start forgiving myself. It allowed me to start forgiving [00:13:00] others.
And I think forgiveness has honestly been the biggest power of transformation in my life. I've needed a ton of forgiveness from others. And. You know, just recently, you know, I was at the National Eucharistic Congress and, you know, was, was praying that the Friday reflection, the theme was all about, um, mercy and repentance, right?
And that evening, it just hit me like a ton of bricks, like my, my relationship with Jesus was hindered because I've not forgiven someone in my life. And there were actually multiple people that came to mind that I needed to forgive and ask forgiveness from as well. And so I think that's been a huge.
Transformation in my life is not being so proud and being able to admit that I've, I failed and I've hurt others in my life and that I need their forgiveness and then to be very liberal about my forgiveness to those who have hurt me and that has brought about just a change interiorly for me, a receptivity and openness, just a greater capacity to love and it goes both ways.
I've needed to be [00:14:00] forgiven and I've needed to forgive others. So it's gone both ways and it's increased this capacity. So that's been the biggest transformation in my life. But I would also say just awareness of my wounds and the things in my life. Um, you know, um, Bob shoots will talk about type a trauma and type B trauma.
One is, you know, something terrible has been done to you and the other is something was missing. And I think for me, as I reflect on my own life and you know, I think People listening to this Joey certainly can identify with trauma in their life. You look back and when you, when you see the full picture of your life and the things that have happened to you or the things that haven't happened to you, it allows you to see a fuller narrative and a fuller picture.
And. For me, it allows me to have more mercy and compassion towards myself and mercy and compassion towards others. And so that's been a huge, that self awareness and just allowing the, the Lord has been able to move in those places because I've just had more room after that self reflection and that, that greater [00:15:00] awareness.
Joey: So good. And it sounds like it's increased your capacity to just love overall, like you're, you're more free to love, which we'll get to a little bit later, which I think is just so, so good and beautiful. I definitely in my life has seen that, you know, seeking God's forgiveness is hard. Seeking other people's forgiveness is hard, but the hardest by far is like forgiving yourself.
And there's something about that that I think we just want to hold on to. And I think on a lot of levels, I know And my own story, especially going back to the, you know, different mistakes I've made, you know, I think there's part of myself that kind of hates the other part of myself, where it's like, like, you idiot, like, why did you, you know, do that stuff?
Like, now I can see more clearly, of course, but in the moment I was in so much pain and just, you know, obviously acting in a way that's not, you know, Um, that's not good. And so I think, yeah, it's really important that we, you know, have that, take that compassionate, that, um, merciful approach to ourselves, not just to other people and not just like going to God asking for forgiveness.
So it sounds so, so helpful. I wanted to ask you though, when it comes to forgiveness, um, for some people can be kind of this elusive thing. Is there some sort of process or [00:16:00] thought or points that you kind of anchor on to when it comes to both giving forgiveness to people who've hurt you and also seeking forgiveness from people maybe that you've hurt?
Matt: I've been really moved just by Jesus and how he commands us to forgive. And in this journey of learning how to forgive more and more, I'm becoming more and more aware of just how this theme is constant in his message. Every time we pray the Our Father, for example, do we realize that we are asking him to forgive us?
I'm asking to be forgiven in the same way that I forgive others. That's literally what I'm praying. Give us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. So every time we pray the, our father, which is at every mass, multiple times, if we say the rosary multiple times, if we said the divine mercy chapel, like any, like the prayers of our, you know, Catholic life or for non Catholics, we say the, our father as well, you know, as Protestants.
So, you know, this is a prayer. given to us by Jesus. And, you know, we are [00:17:00] commanded to forgive. And we are asking in that prayer that we be forgiven the same way that we forgive others. I've been very moved by that and very challenged by that, right? To even look at my heart and say, do I want to forgive certain things and not other things, other things that I want to still hold on to, um, or other things that I'm holding on to and not allowing the Lord to really speak, uh, the truth of forgiveness over those things in my own life.
And so, um, yeah, I think just really praying through that, that line in the, our father has been really powerful for me. Um, in addition, there's another scripture that really convicts me of this. And Jesus talks about, you know, forgiveness and with the measure you use to forgive, you'll be forgiven. Right.
And I keep thinking about that measure and I don't, I don't know about you, but. I have been one to calculate the cost. Oftentimes, like to forgive someone means that I'm actually releasing them of the debt or of what's actually just what's even maybe [00:18:00] even owed to me. I'm like releasing that. I'm forgiving them.
Like that is, that's what mercy is, is to, to receive something you don't deserve. And right when we show mercy and forgiveness to someone, we're releasing them of that debt. And like the measure with which I Forgive is the same measure with which. I will be forgiven like, man, that get that convicts me to want to forgive more and more holy and more completely and not even hold on to the things that, you know, I think I could quickly quickly say, Oh yeah, I forgive you.
Or, you know, sometimes I'll just quickly say, Oh, I'm sorry. It's like, no, if I have wronged someone, I need to take ownership for that and truly ask for forgiveness. And when someone asks for forgiveness from me, I need to truly offer that in the same way that I hope that. Our Lord forgives me of my sins on my judgment day.
Joey: Beautiful. That's a really strong point that it's not enough to just say the words, like obviously the words are part of it. You know, meaning the words is, is more important though, and really like putting your heart behind it. And I know it's kind of, you know, [00:19:00] depending on how someone hurt you and how serious it was, it can be this ongoing thing.
It's not just like a one and done thing as well. So I think all those are like really important points that you hit on. And I, yeah, we, we had father John Burns on in an episode. We'll link to that. I can't remember the exact episode. Number, but, um, we'll link to it. So if you guys want to hear more about forgiveness and like his whole process of forgiveness, um, that episode is awesome.
And one of the things I learned from him and I'm hearing you say too, is there's this important component of forgiveness to be just like moved by the misery of the other or ourselves. Right. And so. There's this important component, especially when we're like challenged to forgive that we need to be moved by their misery and to see them in their humanity, not just in the way that they harmed us.
And I know for a lot of people listening right now, especially who've gone through their parents divorce or the family, you know, just, just really dysfunctional. They might harbor a lot of anger, a lot of even hate towards their parents. And like the idea of forgiving them is just like almost impossible.
What would you say to them in that situation? Um, if, if they do feel kind of convicted by this, but they feel a little bit stuck.
Matt: Yeah, it helps me. [00:20:00] I was talking with a friend recently, and he reminded me of the stages of forgiveness. And so when you've been hurt and wronged, right, you lose trust, right?
There's a relation, there's a broken part of your relationship. And forgiveness is not forgetting, right? And we were just talking about how, gosh, where are you at in your stage of forgiveness with the circumstance of this person? And, you know, he was sharing with me that forgiveness is stage one. Stage two is, Rebuilding, it's reconciliation, like to reconcile and stage three is to begin trusting again that I don't know whose model that is.
I can't claim that. And I don't think my friend can either. I think it's someone else's model. But that really resonated with me. There's a freedom. I could be more liberal with my forgiveness if I'm not saying let's pretend it's all better. Now we're reconciled and back at square one and pretending like nothing happened.
That's not what forgiveness is right. But forgiveness is is truly like a release of the, the burden of, of that sin of that pain that someone [00:21:00] caused you. And I'm, I'm forgiving you. I'm choosing to forgive you just as Jesus forgave on the cross. That doesn't mean that like when he forgave that, like his wounds were immediately transformed, he was still in pain and he was still bleeding on the cross.
Like that, that forgiveness didn't fix everything, but he still chose to forgive. And I think that's like to live in that is okay. You can still choose to forgive even if the pain is raw, and that doesn't mean that you've moved into reconciliation or fully trusting and beginning again with someone, but, um, Jesus forgave on the cross when his pain was real, and it was, it was present.
It wasn't in the past. And he still never gave
Joey: the beautiful and inspiring. And I love the stages idea, especially if there's maybe a person who it would be very bad idea to have some sort of reconciliation. Like there's obviously that component of it too, if they would be like unsafe or, you know, very toxic, unhealthy to level where you can't be in that situation.
So yeah, that, that's really, really helpful. I love it.
Matt: Joey, I might say this too. Just one more thought came to mind. [00:22:00] I think we're all called to forgive. Like in person and with our words. But if you can begin, if you're really struggling, there's a painful relationship or you've been really hurt in your life, you can start by desiring to forgive and beginning that in your own heart.
Like, Lord, I want to forgive this person. Lord, I want to get up, get to a place of forgiveness. And that forgiveness can begin just in the silence of your heart and that wrestling and asking the Lord to move. you know, if you're not ready to actually go to that person and, um, offer forgiveness. So I think there's a, there's a process.
And if that's where you're at, just pray for the desire to want to forgive and, and wrestle with the Lord in that.
Joey: So good. And the benefits are there. Like if you've never experienced it, once you really go through that process of forgiving someone who's hurt you, you literally won't realize like, like, wow, I did not realize I was carrying around this like Boulder on my back that's just been weighing me down on so many levels and when you forgive them It's like, you know, there's so much freedom there There can't be at least if it's genuine and you know, I [00:23:00] I've experienced that myself, which is yeah I hope everyone listening can can go through that.
I know it's not easy. But like Matt I hear you saying just take the small steps take the small steps
Matt: Yeah
Joey: And um, you know challenge yourself to to kind of go outside your comfort zone when the time is right But anything else you dad before you move on?
Matt: You mentioned the word freedom, and I think that's very true when we, when we forgive others, but also if we have harmed others, there's tremendous freedom in being forgiven.
And I'll share this, Joey, I have asked for forgiveness from people before that I still felt like there was a debt owed, if you will, like there was Unresolved things there. It was just for me to still feel the way that I did in a circumstance, but me admitting my part and asking forgiveness and expressing sorrow for my part in that circumstance.
And it was not conditional on the other person apologizing to me. Right? So often I want if I'm going to apologize and I'm owed an [00:24:00] apology as well. I want for that. the other person to do that. And I've been really praying to be free from whatever the other side is, whatever the outcome is, that I still am going to own my part.
I'm going to apologize. I'm going to ask for forgiveness. And I've been so much freer as a result, even if that person didn't apologize to me and own up to their part. That hurt me. And so I just wanna encourage you, like, there's, there's freedom, such a freedom in forgiveness and it, the, the context doesn't have to be like, oh yeah, we're totally on the same page about how this is gonna look.
Like. You can still offer that to someone else or ask for it of yourself even before that other person is ready to take their step forward. So
Joey: such an. Yeah, that's such an important point. No, please keep going. I just, I didn't mean to jump in there. I can't emphasize enough because from what we're hearing from a lot of the young people that we're walking with is, you know, they maybe like one or both of their parents are in that spot where they've like made some decisions or done some things that have really hurt their kids and they might be [00:25:00] oblivious to it.
Or just like lack such awareness that it's like, wow, like this hurt me so bad and mom or dad don't even realize it.
Matt: They have no clue.
Joey: Yeah, or if they do, they're just like, for one reason or another, they haven't done anything about it and, and that could be like such a heavy burden. So, I like this idea that it can be this one way thing, which I think ultimately, You know, if there's could be reconciliation, that's the goal, but at least starting with yourself because that's the only person you could control.
Matt: Yeah. And Joey, I think just going back to Jesus, right. He says on the cross, father, forgive them for they know not what they do. Right. Maybe they did like what a generous and unmerited request of the father. Like, they know that they're killing him, and they're torturing him, and he's bleeding and dying on the cross, right?
Suffocating, yeah. Yes, like, they can see that this man is suffering to a great degree, and he still says, Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. And I do think that, gosh, what a challenge it is to show [00:26:00] that kind of mercy to people. And what I'm not saying is that people don't need to take responsibility for the pain that they've caused others.
But, That may not always come before you express forgiveness. The order doesn't have to be that way. So anyways, I'm inspired by Jesus and, um, want to be more like him in the way he forgave even when he was in the pain on the cross.
Joey: Truly heroic. And on that note, I think it's so important we talk a lot about health and wholeness and all these terms that, you know, people are familiar with.
Um, but I don't think we slow down to really define our terms. And so I'd love to kind of go there now with you. And again, thank you so much for sharing so much. And your insights are always just so brilliant. Um, that's why I wanted to talk with you about this. So I'm curious, let's dive into this. Let's throw this around a bit.
Like, what's the first thing that comes in mind when you think of a healthy or whole person?
Matt: Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind, ironically, is what it's not, because I think for so long, [00:27:00] I've been striving for something that's not whole or healthy. And so, you know, I think about something that is whole is something that is not divided.
It's not separated. It's united. It's, it's one. It's as it was intended to be. And I think about, you know, for the human person, being whole is looking at everything, all the aspects that God has created you with, right? I have a body. He's given me a body. He's given me a mind. He's given me a soul. He's given me a heart, right?
And it's when those things are connected and in harmony with one another, that's what it is to be whole. And I think so much of life because of original sin, right? Adam and Eve before the first sin were whole, right? Their, their bodies, their minds, their hearts, their desires matched what they did. Like there was not a disintegration of these things.
And it wasn't until that sin and that lie from the enemy that they started to believe that disintegration started to happen. [00:28:00] They were no longer whole, they were broken. There was brokenness in their desires and their relationships and their bodies in the world, right? There was pain, there was suffering, there was work, right?
So I think wholeness is the unity and the harmony of those aspects with which God has created us. Body, mind, soul, like all of those things Being in harmony with one another.
Joey: It's so good. It's almost like the parts aren't at war with each other. They're all working together, moving in one direction. And that's what I hear you saying about, you know, going to the biblical story of Adam and Eve.
Like they, it's not like their desires were telling them to do one thing and their mind was telling them, no, that's not good. Do this other thing. It was like, no, their desires wanted the good thing. And their mind was like, yeah, do the good thing. Yeah. It'd be nice to experience. Yeah.
Matt: Well, it's like, Joe, we've talked about like working on virtues, like, and as men, we're called to work on virtues.
What if like, It wasn't work to be virtuous, right? I think that's Adam and Eve just their desires so fully [00:29:00] like integrated with what was good for them. They didn't have to think about, I need to do the virtuous thing right now. It just, that was in alignment, right? And, and like, gosh, what would that be like?
But I think that's what the journey of the lifeline journey towards wholeness is. It looks like it's, and for us, it takes like virtue building, it takes flexing muscles. It takes prayer and emptying ourselves to, to really make space for like that virtue to happen. But I think it's getting to that original place, right?
That's what heaven will be like where our bodies, our mind, everything is, is restored. Everything is made new and as it, as it should be.
Joey: That's so good. So yeah, the, I guess disintegration, like you said, would be kind of the division of the parts kind of warring against each other, wanting different things.
Um, maybe some parts of you wanting good things, other parts of you wanting bad things, like your intellect typically wanting the good and then there may be desires wanting the bad. Um, and then in integration would be the opposite of what we're saying, which is like everything's kind of in alignment. So just trying to make sure I understand everything on that front.
And I [00:30:00] think, yeah. Yeah. Anything else to add before we move on?
Matt: No, Joey, I appreciate this about you. I've been, I've really appreciated our, our growing friendship as well. Joey is a man that is very good at being concise and getting to the point and I am not. So I appreciate you driving the point home, uh, to really make a clear point.
I really, really love that about you.
Joey: Oh, thank you. No, I think we make a good team for sure. Um, I think there was something about like looking at what it's not, you know, to, to, in order to define like health and wholeness. Cause I think we look around us and we definitely see many examples of, of what it's not.
And I want to go into that in a moment, but another question I guess is like, can health and wholeness be obtained or is it more of an infinite goal that we're kind of always like working on?
Matt: I don't know the answer to that, but here's, here are my thoughts. I don't, I think, I don't think we will be whole, completely whole until we're one with God in heaven.
I don't think that that's possible. And maybe it is possible if you. If you [00:31:00] die a living Saint and you've totally like been cleansed of the disintegration in your life. Right. So maybe, maybe I would go back on that if there's like, okay, a living Saint, like was mother Teresa whole? I mean, I want to believe she was pretty darn close to it if not there, but I think what my response would be, Joey, I think it's more like the same question of holiness.
So, Joey, are you holy? Right? I hope that you would say yes. I would say yes. But are you done becoming holy? Yeah. Are you done with your, your path of holiness and your journey towards holiness? Absolutely not. Like, so for me, am I, am I holy? Gosh, I hope so. Am I as holy as I need to be? No. But so similarly, I think.
Am I whole? You know, I'm a lot more whole than I was a year ago or 10 years ago, but I'm not done becoming whole, if that makes sense. So, I think it's more of a journey. It's a, you know, a spectrum kind of sounds like a weird word to use, but in many ways, I think it is. I've, [00:32:00] I'm, I'm far more healthy and holy, um, and Whole, not holy as in, um, you know, close to God, but whole, W H O L E.
I'm more whole than I was a decade ago, and I'm really grateful for that. Um, so, I don't know. Does that make sense?
Joey: Yeah. No, I'm tracking with you. It's, it's bringing up a lot of, um, kind of thoughts and questions. One idea, I know we're talking about like wholeness, holiness, and health. I kind of thrown these terms around.
I almost think of like holiness as like, it's not like we're all mirrors. And the more clear the reflection of Jesus is, that's like the level of your holiness. I like to think of it that way. And then I guess health would be maybe a little bit, certainly tied in with all that, but maybe a little bit more removed in that, like the, maybe there's this like ideal of the human person and, you know, Christians, Catholics would say that's Jesus, right?
Uh, we would say that. Um, but that's kind of like what we're striving towards. Like how, how, how accurately do we reflect what it means to be human, like at the deepest level. And [00:33:00] so it brings up the question of like, well, you know, it's a big question. Like why are we here? Like, what's the whole point of all this?
Because if we just measure like health and wholeness on like a secular materialistic level, we would probably look at people's looks. You know, we'd look at their fitness. We'd look at their like physical health. We wouldn't really go below the surface and think of this whole like kind of spiritual realm as well.
Um, so I think our definition, like you, like you said, well, before it needs to be very holistic and he's include all the aspects of the human person. You mentioned the soul, the body, the heart, you know, the mind, um, which I love. So I think there's something to all of that. I know I'm kind of, um, going down different rabbit holes here, but I think that there's something to, to that.
And so to me, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. I think the whole purpose of life is to love. And so I think the, really the best measure of maybe health and wholeness is like your capacity to love, like the greater your capacity to love, um, the more free you are, the more healthy, the more whole you are.
If there's any inhibitions, if there's any barriers that are holding you back, that's just one way, in my opinion, to [00:34:00] measure, um, your, you know, health and wholeness. Health and wholeness. And I guess another way to measure freedom too. So any thoughts on any of that?
Matt: Gosh, I love both of those words. You just named like two of my favorite words, freedom and love.
Um, and then you put those together, freedom to love. Um, so I can't help but think of john paul the second who talks about freedom, right? Freedom is not I can do whatever I want. It's the freedom to do what I ought, right? Um, right. Freedom to love that really reflects the freedom to love because we were made to love.
So I can't help it. Reference JP too, because I think he got this so well. I think he lived integration so well, right? You look at body, mind, soul. Like this man was living it all, right? He's skiing and glorifying God with his body, but he's also going deep with the Lord intellectually and writing deep truths of our faith.
And he had this huge heart, this great capacity to love, um, right? Anyone. I just remember being a kid in his presence. I [00:35:00] felt loved by him. Right. I just felt loved by the man. He had such a capacity to love. And so I think you're really onto something that, you know, the measure is your capacity to love your freedom to give of yourself and love.
But something you mentioned earlier just is a similar temptation that I have to measure these things more on the externals. I think we're more comfortable with. with externals, right? Um, what's a healthy person look like? Well, they'd be in good shape and they would, um, be well put together and all of those things.
But I think too often today and in society we focus on those exteriors far too much than we do on the interior health, right? The, the health of the wholeness of the heart and the mind, the soul and right. Think about just social media. How often, Joey, do we just post the good things that exteriorly, right?
We appear this way. And, you know, I, I've some, some of the most fit people that I've ever known are some of the most broken when you actually get [00:36:00] to know them. But, but there's almost this like, gosh, I feel a sense of control or I feel like a sense of accomplishment or I'm getting somewhere. If I've mastered this one part of, you know, my life, but it's just that one part, right?
It's the, the physical body. Uh, and you know, that's only one part of the whole person, right? So I think it can be really, um, yeah, it's, it's disintegrated if we only focus on that. Um, and I think Jesus even talks about this with the Pharisees and the Sadducees and he talks about, you know, the cup. Right.
And the, the cleansing, you know, if we only cleanse the exterior, what people see, um, he's far more interested on the interior. And so I think that's actually a really tough thing. What I'm not saying is like, let's dismiss the body because I think the body really does matter. Um, but I think it's easier for us to only focus on that and not focus on the interior things.
And Jesus really warns against that. It's really good. Yeah. And I think to integration. I thought a lot about [00:37:00] this recently. They're kind of, these are going to be like unfiltered thoughts and words, but just how integration is rooted in the word integrity, right? Even in preparation for this podcast, Joey, I was like, how, how would you simply define integrity?
Because I could use a lot of words. What, what is integrity? So it's the state of being whole and undivided is one definition that I saw. So the state of being whole and undivided, and what is it to have an undivided heart and mind and will and desires, right? Like when those things are aligned, like, gosh, that's, that's integrity versus, you know, even Paul talks about this and I find so much support from Paul.
Like he was a Saint, you know, transformed his life, but still after following the Lord. struggled with sins of the flesh and struggled. Like, why do I do the things I don't want to do? Why is my, you know, my greatest desires not aligning with my like earthly and like worldly and carnal desires. Right. It's because, [00:38:00] um, he's not yet whole.
Right. And I think that's if St. Paul could struggle with that. And he was much closer to Jesus than I was like, I find a lot of consolation and saying, okay, you know, why do I do the things I don't want to do? And why do I not do the things that I want to do? Well, because I'm not whole yet. I'm not fully integrated.
And that's what I need more healing in my life to get there. So, um, but I think going back to what you said, Joey, like that freedom to love. I really do think if there's a measurement, if there's a KPI to all of this, that's it. Like, am I free to give up myself? And I also think we have to be careful though.
Some people can get busy being. Martha's and right doing I'm giving of myself almost to cover up the things that, um, I don't like or that the areas that do need healing. So it truly is a freedom to love and fully give of yourself, not just to be doing things to contribute to make other people's lives better to show love and care for others.
But it's to love is like freedom to love, like holy, [00:39:00] like entirely, not just out of, uh, yeah. Gosh, um, I really ought to be doing something out of love for someone else. Right. I think that's an important distinction. Like, um, Martha and Mary, that's a tension in me sometimes is the doer or the beer. And I think, you know, Mary was able to just be at the foot of Jesus at the feet of Jesus.
And that was loving just as much as Martha's doing. And so both are really important.
Joey: Yeah, no, I felt either. Um, so many good things. One point you made about kind of our culture is really interesting to look around and see like what we value like what we almost Like you might be able to say like worship and it really is things like wealth, you know Fitness quote unquote success in the form of like, you know popularity or business or something like that We worship celebrities on some level too and we worship youth and in our culture in particular And so it's, it's really interesting to see like that's kind of what we would maybe define as a secular culture as like health and [00:40:00] wholeness or like the goal, but, uh, but it's very different than what we're saying.
Not to say those things aren't a component of it. Sure. But it's not like to the level that, you know, I think our culture overemphasizes and probably overemphasizes because there's like not much depth, um, below it. Like, there's not that, like you said, the interior part, like the, the spiritual component and the deep, like focus on love and, and doing good and all that.
So I think that that's really important to highlight that we're very much so diverting from that in our definition. And the other thing I thought of too, is I think love is like the pinnacle of all the virtues, right? And so it's the greatest of all the virtues. Um, so I guess another way we could say what we're saying is like the greatest measure of health is virtue.
And so that's, I think, a really important thing to maybe get into a little bit. And some of the time we have left, like to someone who's maybe hearing that word and thinking like, yeah, I kind of know what that is, but couldn't really define it. Um, yeah, well, let's talk about that. Like, what is a definition of virtue?
And yeah, let's dive in there.
Matt: Gosh, [00:41:00] these definitions. I'm not good at this Joey. This, this requires like a concise answer. Yeah. And
Joey: in Matt's way, like how would you define like virtue? If someone came up to him, like what's virtue?
Matt: Yeah. I think some, I've been doing a lot of work with priests and seminarians around just integration.
And, you know, there's a lot of spiritual realities for priests and seminarians, specifically a priest, right? You're a spiritual father, but you're also. Right? You're not just called to give sacramentally to people. You're called to give of your whole self, right? It's very, it's not that different, actually, from you and I and our fatherhood, right?
We pour ourselves out and we give of ourselves and right? We get woken up in the middle of the night. And this morning my son, you know, was crying and my wife was like, he's awake. I was like, Oh, he sure is, isn't he? Um, and Right. The, the part of me that desires to love and to give of myself after the second [00:42:00] time got up and got him so that my wife could sleep in.
But I guess, um, you know, I guess virtue. It's so easy for me to describe what virtue isn't. It's harder for me to describe what virtue is like virtue. I think is like this. It gives you this like self possession so that you can give of yourself, right? And, um, virtue, there's so many virtues. Jesus was the most virtuous man.
So it really points back to how did Jesus live and how did these virtues connect and integrate? Because, you know, I could, I could say, well, the virtue of prudence is this, but sometimes a moment calls for the virtue of courage, right? And it's actually, these things are not an opposition, they're integrated, right?
So similarly, like, I think we're talking a lot about integration, how these things are connected. I could out of, you know, prudence say, well, gosh, I didn't get much sleep last night. So my wife should get up with the baby so that I can be well rested and do well at work and, uh, give my full self there. But what about [00:43:00] charity?
Right? What about love? The greatest of these is love. And so, so I need to get up and out of, out of love, be motivated to show my wife that. So I guess what I'm trying to say, Joey, is that Lack of virtue, I think, is a person who is just very of the world, you're, you're formed by the world, you value the things of the world, and virtue allows me to not be that worldly person, it allows me to look at where I'm going and to choose the good over my own desires, to choose something greater than my own desires, so a lack of virtue is I just I do whatever I want.
And I'm actually not happy at the end of that, right? If it's choosing sin or pleasure or eating or drinking or whatever it is, that lack of virtue doesn't actually make me happy and whole. It's virtue that makes me happy and whole. It's the orienting of myself towards higher goods towards the greatest goods.[00:44:00]
Um, and that's what I think virtue is all about.
Joey: I love that. And I, it makes so much sense. And that, you know, what I hear you describing as vice is what, you know, Catholic Christian culture would call sin. And in many ways, and yeah, I agree. Like promises a lot, you know, it seems like being selfish would be like a better way to live.
In some ways it's like only worrying about yourself and having whatever you want. It's like, that sounds kind of great. And then you live it and you do it. And it's like, wow, this is miserable and very empty. And like, this is not, You know, it doesn't deliver what it promises. I think that's like an earmark of vice.
It's like, it's always, it tricks you, it tricks you. Whereas virtue on the other hand, often it's just hard. And especially at the beginning, it's just difficult. And then once you attain a virtue or integrated into your character, um, there's just like this middle of mastery and freedom. And you actually experience the satisfaction, the joy, and the peace that you long for.
Not to add like this level of utopia or euphoria, but, but at a level that's like, wow, okay, this is like what I was made for, this [00:45:00] is the life that I want to live. And so one of the things I was thinking back to is like the, the way the Greeks thought about virtue. I'm going to butcher this, but, um, was it Arete where they said it's like virtue is essentially like human excellence, where it's like, it's like take a human and everything a human should be.
And if they're full, like if they have virtue, then they're like, Thriving in human excellence, not just excellent at some function, like they're great at golf or they're great at math or something like that, or great at business, it's like, no, they actually are like a great, they're great at being human.
And there's something about that that's just so good. And so I remember too, the Greeks defined virtue as the right, the habitual disposition to do the good, if I'm remembering that right, habitual disposition to do the good. And so in that, there's kind of like two components that I've always thought of.
One is. There's obviously the habit part. It's like good habits, you know, um, those are virtues. Um, and then that kind of inclination, that disposition, that almost like leaning towards like what is good is another component of it. So it's like it has to do with your heart, not just your actions too. And so I think those [00:46:00] things, um, for me have always been helpful in addition to everything you said, which I think was so well said.
And, you know, ultimately they, yeah, just bring about this, like, again, mastery in life that lead to lead to freedom. And on that note, and then I love to hear what you have to say. I remember you and I talking a bit about that whole, if love is the point of life, if the greatest of the virtues is love, and that's like what we're trying to orient our life around that there's so much like joy and freedom and happiness to be found in giving yourself away and, you know, in a healthy way, then.
We, you know, we really need to work up to that point, but what precedes that point, you know, that self gift is really self possession. Like we need to have that mastery over ourselves as we've talked about. So that's like one, you know, level below it. And then another level below that is we need self awareness, right?
We need to kind of learn about ourselves and be able to kind of know how we operate in different situations with different people, like when we're, our wounds and triggers and different things like that, or maybe just blind spots and deficiencies and all that. And then one level below that would be just self [00:47:00] knowledge.
So I'll kind of explain that again. So self knowledge is the starting point. And that's what you talked about. Um, that's, I heard you saying earlier when you talked about going to therapy, just like learn more about yourself, almost as if you were getting to know another person, it's like, Oh, I'm learning parts of myself, parts about myself that I didn't really know before.
I didn't fully understand. I'm getting insight into maybe blind spots, things like that. So that's self knowledge. Then leads to self awareness. Now I can take that knowledge, I can go out into the world, I can be in a relationship with other people, and I know like, oh, in this situation I might tend towards anger.
Or I might tend towards, you know, self pity or pride or arrogance, whatever. Any of the vices. And so I know I can course correct. I can act in a way that's maybe different than my inclination, because, like you said, we live in this broken world and we want to do things that maybe aren't good for us. And so then that self awareness leads us to, like, Once we get good at that, we have the self possession and then from self possession, we are able to make a gift of ourself, like we're, we're free.
And so, um, not to kind of circle around that too much, but I think that's, it's been so helpful for me and something obviously I'm still working on, but I think that model is, is really a freeing and helpful. And I think that, [00:48:00] I think we're getting at the heart of like what it means to be healthy and whole.
Matt: Yeah. Joe, I think it's so important to just understand why we do the things that we do and even to be curious about why. You know, I think that's, that's also been a really helpful piece for me is any of my weaknesses I associated with poor character or lack of virtue. And some of that's probably true, but some of it is also that I've been given a certain personality and I grew up in a certain home and I have my own experiences of life, good and bad, uh, pain that I've experienced and how I've responded to that as, you know, even as early as a child.
And I think that. If we want to make a self gift of ourselves, which I know that everyone desires that ultimately we all desire that it's impossible to do that unless we've worked backwards to understand what is actually going on inside of us. Right. And that's, it's so important that we go in that order.
It's, it's not even, it's not a neat order every time for me, at least it's, you [00:49:00] know, gosh, I want to be more generous. I want to love better. I want to give myself more. And it's like, well, I just can't right now. Okay. Why? Like what's going on? And if I work backwards, it's like, yeah, I'm still, I'm still selfish.
There's a, uh, there's a, you know, part of, there's a childhood Matt that is still wanting to be whole and, and is still broken. And, you know, unless the Lord can just totally supply the grace, which he can, he can, even if we haven't gone through this whole process of becoming whole and, and, and healing, he can provide grace so that we can skip those other steps and give a gift of ourselves.
So I do think that's the beauty of this. We need to do the work. We need to grow in our self awareness and self mastery so that we can give a gift of ourselves. But sometimes we do just need to pray for the grace and the virtue, the supernatural virtue to do heroic things, even when our human limitations get in the way.
I think that grace could provide, it can cover a lot of our weaknesses.
Joey: No, I love that. That's great advice. [00:50:00] And I was thinking too, when you were speaking how, you know what you're saying that we, at least in my life, and I've seen this in a lot of my friends lives, the people that I lead, we, when we're the most broken, I think that's when we're most susceptible to or most tempted to or most vulnerable to vice.
Right? Because we're seeking, usually we're in pain when we're broken, when we don't feel whole, when we're in an unhealthy spot. And then we go towards vice because it promises something that it doesn't deliver. It's a drug in a sense that it helps us to numb that pain. And then that, you know, in ways injures us more, it does more harm, it wounds us more.
And then we kind of go back to, you know, that, Oh, I'm really broken. And then there's this, this vicious cycle between brokenness and vice, brokenness and vice, brokenness and vice. I see it. all the time. And so I think in order to, you know, stop the vice, some people just kind of say, well, you just need to like be strong and be virtuous and just like kind of put them on a good front and just kind of like power through it.
And, and there's maybe some level of [00:51:00] merit to that. Like we do need to have strength and we can't, you know, just expect that if we think long and hard enough about our past, that everything's going to be perfect. And we're going to be able to, you know, Finally love people and be virtuous. There's some to taking action.
I'm not diminishing that But what I've seen so often is people just neglect the whole like brokenness and untreated trauma component of it I know you see this a lot in your work, too And so yeah I love any thoughts or comments on this whole like vicious cycle between brokenness and sin brokenness and vice that you're observing in your own life and then the
Matt: Yeah.
I mean, Joey, it's so prevalent in my own life and you know, the, the desire for virtue and then the lack of virtue and the lack of, you know what I mean? It's like, uh, Paul, I totally relate to you St. Paul. Um, but I, I think for so many years of my life, I relied on my own strength. And I relied on self sufficiency, uh, because of my woundedness, because of pain I've experienced in my life, [00:52:00] that it was a lot easier for me to say, well, gosh, to avoid that pain altogether, I'm going to be independent, I'm going to be self sufficient, I'm not going to rely on other people, I'm not going to be vulnerable, I'm not going to invent my weaknesses, right?
That caused me more pain. At least I thought it did. And it's been so freeing to understand it. My own woundedness. And, and, you know, another conversation, Joey could be about just, you know, the wounds that Bob shoots will talk about. And, you know, there's 7, 7 wounds that are very prevalent. And there's, there's more wounds than that.
But, you know, 7 common wounds and just naming those and understanding that those exist. And then, you know, And then knowing that when we've experienced pain in our lives, wounds are, I would say are synonymous with pain in many ways, right? Like if I've experienced a pain in my life, I'm wounded by that.
And if that wound doesn't get healed quickly, um, I start to believe things. about that pain, right? If I continue to feel that pain, you know, the devil totally sees our vulnerability [00:53:00] and start speaking lies to us. And we start believing, um, things that are not true about ourselves, about the world, about others, about the person that causes that pain about, you know, whatever.
And then over time we, we build vows, false vows that, you know, I will never be vulnerable again. I will never allow myself to be hurt in this way. I will never, whatever, fill in the gap with whatever you need to, to, to do. vows so that you're not hurt again. And for me, Joey, quite honestly, I've had so much more freedom in my journey and being able to name those wounds and accept that I'm wounded and that I'm in pain or have been in pain in my life, which sounds weak and vulnerable to say, uh, but it's true.
Um, even if the pain is still present and, and, and naming that wound, it, it has allowed me so much more quickly to build virtue and to invite like the Lord's healing into it versus. I need to heal myself. I need to self preserve. I need to be [00:54:00] independent. I don't want to need others. I don't even want to need God, you know, in this area of my life.
And so in the recognition of and naming certain wounds has just brought in so much more like grace and like growth and virtue has just been Much faster than me building virtue on my own love that
Joey: speaking of growth and virtue I know you work with a lot of business owners leaders priests bishops Even people in ministry wherever to do you coach them you have extensive experience as a CEO and you offer that sort of executive coaching And and more so if you would tell us about the work that you do what you offer and how people can find you online
Matt: Yeah, so Joey I Um, I've been formed a lot by Pat Lynchoni and, uh, his leadership principles and organizational health principles.
And I offer that to for profit leaders, um, as well as nonprofit leaders and particularly to priests and bishops and seminarians. So, I have one, one business that does work in pouring into leaders, help [00:55:00] building up their confidence in who they are as a leader, a lot of that self awareness, self mastery.
Like it's a lot of the things we've been talking about today and then how that affects an organization when you lead a team and when you lead an organization in a culture. So that's, that's one, one of the projects I'm working on. And then the second is, is called chrism and it's a project specifically for.
for priests, bishops, and seminarians to provide an integrated approach to ongoing formation. And what I've learned, Joey, is that leadership is just one piece of the puzzle. And for a lot of my life, you know, the last, you know, six or eight years, I was like, yeah, leadership is the key. Leadership is the key.
And it's definitely a gap in the formation for priests. I definitely still see it as a gap, but. What I found is that so many priests, if they're not growing in leadership and the principle is true and, and even they're convicted of that principle, but they're not actually able to embrace it and own it and implement it, it's because there's something else going on under the surface.
And so a lot of the work that I'm doing now is very integrated. It's, it's recognizing our woundedness or our [00:56:00] spiritual needs and how that affects us humanly and how that affects us as leaders. And so, um, it's been really beautiful to just look at the whole man. And if God is calling you to the priesthood, if you're already an ordained priest, or if you're a seminarian or even a bishop, you know, God, God wants to make, make them whole or shepherds whole.
And so a lot of the things that we've been talking about today, that's really the starting point for a lot of the work that we build on and can really help a man become the leader he's called to be. When we start looking at other aspects that, you know, That tend to be below the surface sometimes.
Joey: So good.
Love that. And, um, how can people find it online? Do you have two separate websites for both businesses?
Matt: Yeah, I'd probably highlight the, the priest one, uh, chrismpriest. com. Um, that's a more robust site that really explains those different offerings, but you can email me at Matt at chrismpriest. com if you want to know more.
And I'd be happy to share about the work I do with for profit leaders and business leaders as well.
Joey: Hey, super thankful to [00:57:00] know you and love the time we've had together as friends. And I look forward to growing even more together and to getting to know you better. Thank you so much for being here and for, yeah, just sharing all your brilliance and wisdom.
Um, in closing out, I want to give you the last word. I'm just curious, like what final advice or encouragement you offered everyone listening? Um, especially maybe people who. Maybe thinking like, why is this worth it? You know, is it worth it to struggle and to go all this? Like, why don't I just kind of live that selfish life that we talked about?
Matt: Yeah, Joey, I guess all I can speak to is my own experience and I'm on the journey towards wholeness. I'm not done. Um, but I, I can taste it. I can feel it. And I feel more free than I did six months ago, a year ago. It's taken a lot of work. It's taken a lot of self awareness, painful self awareness, and inviting other people in to help me grow in those areas, which is painful.
It's really painful to recognize your own woundedness and brokenness, but [00:58:00] it's also so much more free than trying to hide it. And I guess I would just encourage anyone that's struggling. It's like, if you're struggling to believe this, give it a try. And I think you'll find that there's so much more on the other side than just white knuckling it and trying to, trying to do it all on your own and pretend that it's okay on the outside.
And God made us to need each other. He made us to need each other. We literally need each other. I think he describes the body of Christ, right? Joey, you can't be the head and the heart and the foot and the arm and the ear and the nose and the eye. You can't be at all. Right. And for a lot of my life, that's how I tried to be.
Um, okay. I'm not an, I'm not an, I, but if I work hard enough, I can become an eye. It's like, no, maybe I'm just supposed to be, you know, a mouth or an ear. And that's what, and God need made me to need those other parts. And so I think, um, just maybe to, to close it, I think that's kind of what wholeness is. It actually looks like this oneness in Christ.
And [00:59:00] we get to experience that, um, through his body, the church, right? When the body of Christ is thriving and doing well, I've had moments in my life and seasons in my life that gosh, things are so edifying and I'm so full by being in the presence of other people and they're speaking into my life and I'm, I'm coming to know myself and coming to the Lord more fully.
And I guess I would just encourage anyone that's wondering if it's worth it or wondering if this is possible, just take the first step, take the first step by maybe inviting someone into. your woundedness, your brokenness or your fears, you know, maybe just take the first step in saying, you know what, maybe I'm not supposed to do this on my own.
And You know, start shedding some of that self reliance and allow yourself to be broken, allowing yourself to be received and allowing yourself to be loved. So that would be my encouragement. We're all on the journey. So brothers and sisters, I'm with you in it. And uh, I need these reminders myself. So Joey, hold me accountable to that because I need that in my own life.
Joey: [01:00:00] If you're a leader in a business, nonprofit, or even the church, and you're tired of leading alone, or maybe you feel like your overall health as a person is just lacking, I definitely recommend at least reaching out to Matt to see how he can help you, especially for any priests listening right now. Or maybe, you know, a priest who could use this.
Matt's told me about the great work that he's doing with priests, seminarians, even bishops. And it's incredible. It could honestly be the thing that you need to level up your leadership. And more importantly, just to become a healthier and more whole person leader. Again, go check out chrismpriest. com or reach out to Matt with the email that we'll put in the show notes for you guys.
If you come from a divorced or broken family, maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, so much more. And all of our content, all of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured.
and build virtue so you can break the cycle and build a better [01:01:00] life. And so if you want to view the resources that we offer for yourself, or maybe someone that you know, just go to restored ministry. com slash resources, or just click on the link in the show notes. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents, divorce or broken family, share this podcast with them.
Feel free to even do it now. Honestly, I promise you that they will be so grateful even if they don't tell you right away. And in closing, always remember you're not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of C.
S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
