Breaking the Cycle of Divorce in Your Marriage | Kaseena Birnbaum | 158
What if divorce didn’t just break your childhood—it rewired how you see love and marriage?
Most people think divorce only affects the couple who splits. But the truth is, when you grow up watching marriage after marriage fall apart, you start to believe that brokenness is normal.
That was Kaseena Birnbaum’s story. With six divorces between her parents and in-laws, she once assumed she’d rack up divorces too. But when her own marriage hit a breaking point, she chose a different path: radical honesty, mentorship, and personal responsibility.
Today, she and her husband are thriving—sober, faith-filled, and raising a strong family.
In this episode, you’ll discover:
Why children of divorce often fear marriage or expect dysfunction
The subtle patterns that keep couples stuck in cycles of brokenness
The turning points that transformed Kaseena’s marriage
How humility, responsibility, and faith can rebuild trust and intimacy
If you’ve ever wondered, “Am I doomed to repeat my parents’ mistakes?”—this episode is for you.
Get Kaseena’s Course, F*** Divorce
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
Joey (01:01)
Welcome to the restored podcast. I'm Joey Panarelli. If you come from a divorced or dysfunctional family, this show is for you. We mentor you through all the pain and help you heal so you can avoid repeating your family's dysfunction and instead build strong, healthy relationships. What if your parents divorced didn't just destroy your childhood, but actually redefined your entire view of love and marriage? Most people think that divorce only affects the couple who splits, but the truth is when you grow up watching marriage after marriage fall apart,
you start to believe that brokenness is normal and you start even expecting it for yourself. And this might be why you've been afraid of marriage or why you've settled for unhealthy relationships, thinking that's just the way that it has to be. My guest today is Kacina Birnbaum. She comes from a combined total of six divorces between her parents and her in-laws and once assumed that she'd rack up divorces too. But when her own marriage hit a breaking point, everything changed through radical honesty, through mentorship and taking responsibility, she and her husband...
turn things around. Today, Casina is a marriage coach, speaker, and content creator guiding couples to rebuild trust, heal deep wounds, and build marriages that last. So if you've ever wondered, am I doomed to repeat my parents' mistakes? Can I actually build a healthy marriage after so much dysfunction in my life? This conversation is for
Casina, welcome to the show. Good to have you here.
Kaseena (02:20)
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I feel honored for sure.
Joey (02:24)
One of the things that kind of blew me away, I know it's a kind of a sobering point, is how you and your husband come from a combined total of six divorces between your parents, if I got that right. That's a staggering number. What happened and how did that shape you?
Kaseena (02:40)
Yeah, we were just talking about that last night and I was thinking about all the different divorces. So like when you count them, it's like, okay, my parents count as one, even though they both are like different people marrying other people. So my dad was married four times by the time I was like graduating high school. And then my mom, she was entering her second marriage and that one, it just didn't end up working out as well. And so, and then my husband had his parents divorce and then his... ⁓
He had another divorce through his dad as well. it just like, for me, like, I feel like I thought divorce was normal. And I'm like, kind of grew up with this motto of thinking like, if you are changing in a relationship, like you shouldn't stay with that person because you know, like it's easier just to leave because you don't want to be unhappy. And I had just seen that happen so many times where I was like, yeah, like I'm probably gonna get a couple of divorces when I grow up. that's like, that was just my like.
like what I thought. Like I had no idea. I saw two people that were wildly unhappy and I saw it so many times and I was like, man, like, I don't know what it takes to like find the right person, but like you definitely don't want to stay in a relationship that's toxic. And that my mindset was just like, don't, you know, like that's just the way of life.
Joey (03:55)
Yeah, no, totally. And it's so interesting that you had that thought. One of the thought that I had was I am just terrified of this thing called marriage. Like, I just don't really want to go down this path because if I do, like, I'm probably going to end up like my parents. And then later I saw statistics where, if you come from a divorced family, you're like twice as likely to get divorced as someone who, you who doesn't, who comes from an intact family.
And if you also marry someone, I've said this on the podcast before, but if you marry someone who also comes from a Doris family, that goes to almost like three acts from the research that we've seen. So it's pretty intimidating. It's not exactly a consoling thing, but it's so interesting how you said that it was just kind of normal for you.
Kaseena (04:33)
And then I also had that bitter feeling too where I wasn't in a rush. My husband and I, dated and lived together for like three years because I wasn't taught how to go about dating any differently. And so that was just kind of like, well, my mind was like, I'm gonna test out this relationship. We'll do everything that married people do and eventually we'll get married if it makes sense. And I don't think that was the right way to enter into a dating relationship if I would.
could have gone back now, but that was just my mindset. Like I remember one of our mentors had said to us like, you know, you guys are doing everything like a married couple. Why is the back door open? And I was just like, I had like this pit in my stomach. I didn't have butterflies about getting married. I never wanted a big wedding. We actually got married like we eloped in Tahoe because I just, like the idea of like seeing all of the divorces like crumble in front of my eyes. And like I saw the big weddings where they stressed about
You know, they put 30, 40, 50 grand into a wedding and I just saw it crumble right before my eyes and I'm like, screw that. I don't want to pay for a wedding. So I just had this pain in my stomach and I thought, like, I wanted to give it my all and I wanted great results, but I was just like, I was terrified. So I can definitely relate with
Joey (05:54)
Yeah, no, for sure. it's funny, I heard a sad a while ago. I don't don't quote me on this guys, but that the more money that's spent at the wedding, like the higher the divorce rate. So there's some crazy stuff out there. So you were kind of wise not to throw a bunch of money at it. But yeah, no, we, I definitely hear and yeah, eloping was an attractive option for us to we ended up, you know, doing the more like traditional route. But, but I totally get that. And I think a lot of people, you know, are in a similar spot where it
it's pretty discouraging to look around and see that, it's not working for a lot of people. On that note, you now have a beautiful marriage. I admire you guys for what you've built, but it wasn't always that way.
Kaseena (06:34)
It wasn't very beautiful.
Joey (06:35)
Yeah, take us to that low moment that you guys had, like what happened there and then what changed.
Kaseena (06:40)
I feel like there was a lot of little moments I thought about. Like I tried to think about like maybe what our rock bottom was. Like when I create a lot of content, I kind of like revisiting our marriage all the time because it's like you're just constantly trying to connect with someone else. And when you're not in that space anymore, you have to kind of reflect back and constantly go, okay, where was I? How did I feel? Because I don't feel that way. I'm not a completely different person. We're different people. But thinking about our lowest moments.
It was just that feeling of feeling hopeless, like dead in our marriage in the sense where there's just not any connection. There's no vibrancy. The thoughts like really ultimately what it came down to is we weren't leading ourselves. My husband wasn't leading his own actions and his attitudes and his character to grow. And I wasn't leading myself. And so it was like two people that are not taking personal responsibility and not seeking out help, getting new information. Like it's just kind of like if you're stagnant, you're going back.
Like there's no other way to look at it. And so it's like two people going backwards trying to make it work. And I think that that was just the low for us for a while. It wasn't like any rock bottom moment. It was just like a lot of that. And I think until we got new perspective, like we wouldn't have been able to do anything without coaches. Like I feel like sometimes people think like, you're just trying to push coaching or you're trying to sell, sell, sell. It's like, I don't think you can change. If you're really
in a place where you are struggling by yourself. Like you can't do it on your own. You need help. Like, and I needed accountability. needed help. needed someone to tell me like, hey, I understand your emotions and feelings, but this is an area you actually need to grow. Like I needed someone to help me raise up and truly take responsibility and not just be a victim to my situation. Because although my husband was doing everything that I didn't want him to do, you know, we were drinking a lot, smoking a lot of weed.
Like we were just not on a path to success because we just, that was just the way we just liked a lot of leisure because it would be none doubt. And with that being said, like there was not a lot that I liked, but I still had the ability to take responsibility of myself. And I think that's where a lot of people miss the balls. They're like, oh, like I just want to change my spouse and I just want, you know, things to be.
I want them to change before I change or before I put effort. it's like, well, regardless of your relationship works out, you need to change. You're also part of the problem. And so I think that having a coach, would have been the only way I would have been able to take my head out of my butt and truly become available to see what was going on. Because I lived in such a...
What would the word be? like drama filled toxic environment for so long that I couldn't see I can't even know what happy and healthy looked like. It like looked like it was for some people but it was like it's not it's not something that I knew how to recognize.
Joey (09:42)
You didn't know what happy and healthy looked like. That's so good and so true. think for people like us who come from really broken families, it's like that's our normal. That's what we maybe think every family is like, unless we're exposed to, you know, families that are healthy and happy. So really good. We might come back to that. What you said about kind of taking responsibility is a hard thing for so many spouses, for anyone in a relationship. I think
partly because it just requires a lot of humility. And I know you talk a lot about how ego can be such an enemy of your marriage or relationship. How did you maybe cultivate some of that humility? It's not an easy virtue to come by.
Kaseena (10:19)
Yeah, I think I saw what it looked like to not have that trait and it bothered me because I saw the victim mentality and it just it like I like I was like, my god, like I can see it with my own eyes. Like you're not taking responsibility or I could see when things were someone's fault, but they weren't taking responsibility. And so I think it wasn't that I wanted to
be humble, it was just like I was so turned off by the fact that people had more control than they realized. I was like, I could see marriages and that the same problem would be happening over and over and I'm like, but you're also doing this. And so seeing that, just was like, I'm not gonna do that. Like regardless of how much it hurt to change and how much personal responsibility sucks sometimes because you're like, you know, it's like, it's the most uncomfortable. ⁓
gut wrenching feeling to look at yourself and go, you're the problem, you know, like you need to change. And when you do that, like it's, I don't know. just, just like there's no other option when you, when you know the truth, that makes sense.
Joey (11:28)
Totally makes sense and it almost sounds like it's what I hear you saying is like your pride is the price you pay for a healthy marriage ⁓
let that go, which is not easy, but so good. And just to your point about coaching, I'm a big fan of coaching as well. I've benefited from a lot of great mentors from going to therapy. And in some ways, when people come to us with struggling marriages, we often point them to coaches, actually not to therapy. Not that we're opposed to it, but we've found that if you can work with a couple or a coach that has been through what you've been through.
not maybe a therapist who went to school for it, but they're not even married or, they don't have like the same experience. Yeah, I think that's like way better. So I'm tracking with you there. And I know, you know, our audiences too, because yeah, I think I've heard people say that like, in a year from now, you'll be the result of I think, Matthew Kelly, an author said this, he said, in a year from now, you'll be the result of the books you read and the people you spend time with. And one group of people is your coaches, the people you listen to your mentors and
you if we look at athletes and any high performers in any area of life they always have the best coaches, they people who are guiding them and I think like why should it be any different in our relationships if we want great ones.
Kaseena (12:37)
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I like the counseling. actually in high school went to counseling and I didn't get to experience the breakthrough. And it was just kind of like, you just keep going and there's never like a stop. You just go and then I got prescribed ⁓ medication. I was 18 and I was going through a lot emotionally and I went to the doctors and I was like, yeah, like I feel like emotionally, I feel like I'm depressed and all, know, this is the...
This is the result of all the toxicity. It's I'm 18, I'm emotional, I'm a woman, and I'm feeling depressed. I feel like everyone's saying, like, I feel like I have different emotions all the time because my character sucks, right? You know, I don't have a lot of follow through. And the doctor prescribes me three medications. It was like bipolar medication, depression medication, and ADHD medication. So I walk out of there.
I'm and I got three prescriptions and I took a survey within 15 minutes and that was what I walked out with. And I was like, like that was a low point in my life. I wasn't even dating anyone at that time. But I was just like, I feel like I couldn't trust. I feel like I went into victim mentality really easily there because I realized like, I'm not in control. These medications have to help me. And so I ended up getting off all of them and actually
because I knew that I was the problem and I needed a change and I received coaching and mentorship. But that was, don't even know how I got to that subject, but what were we talking about?
Joey (14:08)
No, no, you're totally fine. This is really good. No, just like this idea of coaching potentially being better than therapy and
Kaseena (14:15)
That's exactly it. I just started to not trust like the traditional route as much of medicine and not to say there aren't amazing doctors and you know things out there but I just just to walk in so easily and get help when that was actually one of the worst things that could have happened for me. I needed a coach to help me rise above. I needed someone to really help raise my standard, speak, believe into me, not a doctor who didn't even ask me and doesn't know anything about my life.
but gave me medication that altered my brain and the way it works and somehow makes you addicted to some of these things. And I just, I realized like I had to do other things to get help. It was like, wasn't going to be the traditional way.
Joey (14:54)
Yeah, no, gosh, I'm sorry you went through that. That's rough. And you know, we've heard similar stories and I went through a period in college where my emotions were like all over the place. I felt kind of just super broken. I went to therapy and thankfully had a competent therapist. And I think that's the key. Like if you find a competent one, it can be really great. It can be really helpful. Just like a competent coach, but you know, not bashing therapists out there, but sometimes they're not the most competent and just like.
In every field, any profession, there's people who are really good and competent and there's people who aren't. So you need to be really careful with vetting them, which I know is another topic for another time. man, that is rough. Was there anything else from, I don't know, just growing up at home that was kind of big for you and your story? Anything you wanted to add in terms of any way in which your dysfunction at your home, your parents' divorces, how it impacted you or your relationships? This episode is sponsored by Blackstone Films.
They just released a new documentary called Kenny. It's about an ordinary Denver priest who lived like a true father and transformed families and inspired vocations. He would actually wake up at 430 every day to do an hour of adoration. His parishioners would ask him to pray for them and they actually got those prayers answered. Some even call them miracles. He had to shepherd his people through the Columbine shooting, if you guys remember that.
horrible, horrible event. He ate with the families in his parish every night of the week. He hiked with groups of young adults in the Rocky Mountains on Colorado, and he sat with couples on the brink of divorce, even saving a marriage, which they talk about in the documentary. And so if you want a hopeful model of leadership and fatherhood, something worth watching with maybe your spouse or your small group, watch Kenny. The trailer and the full film are now streaming on formed.org. You could just tap the link in the show notes to watch the full documentary.
or just the trailer. Again, thanks to Black Zone Films for sponsoring this episode and for telling such an inspiring story that I myself watched and really appreciate it.
Kaseena (16:47)
think overall, a lot of the biggest things I shared was just seeing the toxicity, feeling at a low graduating high school and receiving all those medications and then not really knowing what I want to do with my life and feeling like, okay, marriage doesn't look like a good route. Just feeling kind of hopeless in all areas, but I know, always, I have a faith, so I feel like I do now, I did then, I wasn't rooted in a foundation of believing in God then.
but I kind of always had some type of like little bit of hope in my heart, like there's gotta be like something better in life. Like I've always been a really big introvert, so I spent a lot of time alone. So I think it might also be because I've experienced so much toxicity being around other people that like it was like my time to like kind of protect my own self and my peace. And I think overall I just, always kept that little bit of hope that there's probably better out there. And I just grew like a...
massive desire to grow. Like I just I think I just became so fed up with everything that I experienced time and time again and every time I would get like a little nugget of help I would get so much energy from it. I was like, oh this this feels good like you mean there's a way to fix what I've been dealing with for however long and and sometimes I would try to share that with my family and like oh like look what I found look what I learned and I was probably the most excited out of everybody. don't know I just I I
so addicted to growth now because I think I've just seen the breakthroughs that can happen when you're in growth mode and when you're learning and when you're taking responsibility. But overall, I would just say it's just a lot of toxicity, just not a lot of character. And so I just had to change everything about myself. And that allowed me to learn to know myself, to love myself. And I think with that, that changed our entire marriage. And, you know, I think
But we probably should be together, you know, based off statistics like you had mentioned, and we shouldn't have such an amazing marriage. Like we didn't start off with any foundation that was anything solid whatsoever. No faith, toxicity, drugs, alcohol, like anything, everything you can imagine in there. And now we're sober, been sober for over five years. We have a strong faith in God and we're prospering, belly businesses, we're a team. And so I'm just super grateful and.
Joey (19:09)
Yeah. No, it's so good. I love it. And you had a really important point that like, think one of the things that we lose when we come from a family that's very toxic or dysfunctional is that we miss out on the mentorship and the guidance that, our parents are meant to give us. Not that our parents maybe didn't help us or guide us in some ways. I certainly did benefit from, you my mom and my dad in this area or that area, but
By and large, I feel like we miss out on a lot of that. So I think the importance of finding that elsewhere can be overstated. And that's what you did. And if you didn't have those people in your life, your life would be very different. I know for me too, not that I'm this crazy successor by any means, but just I would be in a very bad place right now if it wasn't for, like you said, faith, but also just the people in my life who just love me and affirm me and help me to grow into a better, stronger, healthier person.
Kaseena (19:59)
Absolutely. Yeah, it's I know I can't stress enough. I don't know how to share it without being you know, being a person that doesn't sound like it's like, you know, you're trying to sell a product that you you know, if you're a coach, you obviously want to sell coaching you want to sell whatever it is the business that you're in but like there's just no way like I would be like I just wouldn't be who I am and I like I think there's just no price like like I would pay anything to have that
love and life and security and faith and everything that I have, would pay millions of dollars for it to do it all over again. And like, just wouldn't like, you know, there's just no price point that is too high. And so it's like, what you know, if anyone's on the edge of like trying to find a coach or a mentor, do something to really get help. Like, I think if you want to do it faster, like that to me, that's the only way, but you have to find somebody that has results, like somebody that really gets you and just
really is living that life because I think for me religion I was very like opposed to any of it because I just saw a lot of people that were quote-unquote religious but like there wasn't a lot of character behind it so it's like I was forced to maybe go to church and forced to do certain things religiously but the character wasn't lived out in the way that I thought could be you know and nobody's perfect but I just didn't see it so to me it was very confusing
on that. And so it's like even a coach, like a coach just if you're going to work with somebody needs to be somebody that truly lives the life that you want to live versus you know maybe has a degree or like maybe makes a certain amount of money or status anything like that. It's like you have to be able to read between the lines and figure out the difference of what that looks like.
Joey (21:44)
Yeah, no, I can't agree more. There's a lot of hypocrisy out there and I don't...
you for being turned off to that I am too. So yeah, totally makes sense. There's so much more I know we could talk about there, but I, you know, we've both benefited a lot from it. And when you're on the other side of it, I get that it can be scary and intimidating and a big like investment of time and maybe even money. But, but yeah, I've never regarded it when you find the right person to work with. But back to kind what we were talking about before, before we move on to kind of the solution, the happier part of the conversation, I am curious if there are any like patterns or cycles that you found yourself.
falling into you and Taylor. Did you notice, like, yep, we kind of always go through this cycle of brokenness and low points in our marriage.
Kaseena (22:25)
Um, man, I feel like there's different seasons. like the cycle of like when we, you know, and he, he smoked a lot of weed. I did love it with him, but that was his thing. I liked to drink when I was younger. It was like a fun party college thing that kind of turned into like, I never went to AA and it wasn't like I, you know, woke up in the morning and had drinks, but like the drinking here and there led to a lot of fights. And so I would say like,
That season of our life, we experienced a lot of the same problems because we didn't have the control within ourselves to give them up or realize that that was the problem. was kind of like every movie you watch and everything you see on social media, everything's about alcohol and, you know, things like that. And so it looks so normal that you're like, that can't be why our marriage is struggling. So that was a pattern.
And through our faith, we gained enough strength to make that decision. And that was one of the best things and that broke a lot of those patterns. When we used to fight a lot, a lot of the fighting came from the fact that my husband was wanting to be intimate with me. And because I had so much going on in my heart that I didn't know how to express to him. And I kind of felt like I was protecting myself. So I would shut down my body and not want to be intimate with him.
And that led to major patterns of just us fighting and he, you I wonder why don't you want to lead me and why don't you want to fight for us and why aren't you changing? And it's like, I'm making him feel like crap. I'm rejecting him. I'm not making him feel like the king of our house. I'm not building him up with my words. You know, if he tries to approach me sexually, I change, like my body changes. I'm like, oh no, like not tonight. I'm busy. You know, I've got things going on and that's so easy to do. But when you don't realize like,
how intimacy is, it's like it opens up this bond between the two of you and my husband, like he, like guys need it to really truly open up their heart. Like it's like they want to be desired, they want to be wanted. And if that's not happening, like when the pattern of not being intimate in our marriage led to just a lot ⁓ of like loneliness and a lot of fights and...
That cycle when we broke that was when we decided to get help in that area. And when I decided to get educated around like, my husband's not an animal. He needs intimacy for other reasons to truly open up. And I also do too. Like it's a bond between the two of us as a married couple that we share. And so that unlocked a big one for us. But that pattern, it sucked. was just like, had I known earlier, obviously.
you know, you know anything earlier, you would fix it. But that really solved a lot of our problems.
Joey (25:11)
Yeah, no, gosh, you're in the nail in the head and yeah, so many people I think can relate to what you're saying. I know, yeah, we've been through definitely difficult seasons in our marriage and it's so interesting and we'll talk about this maybe a little bit later, but just how, you know, men in order to be, to offer that emotional like closeness, that emotional intimacy, we need the physical intimacy and the women, you know, in order to receive that, you physical or that emotional intimacy need to offer the physical.
the physical and so it's tricky because like none of us really want to go first. ⁓ But and I know we're going to talk about that but I'm curious like if you were well let's go to that now. So this whole idea of going first. So like let's say a couple is caught in that situation where it's like okay I need this and I need this and they know there's willing to go first. Like what's your advice there because again you kind of have to eat your pride and be like okay I will sacrifice and I will go first. Unpack that.
Kaseena (25:59)
just think like just stay where you are if you don't want to go first. That's like that that was the advice I got. I had amazing coaches and mentors for you know quite some time that really were tough love. Like I think I like really cling to hearing that like even like Tony Robbins like I'm very like give it to me because I just wanted to get truth and even though like it's hard so they they were not they didn't beat around the bush with me they're just like look
Like you have to go first or else you're going to be doing the same thing. Like, you know, if they're not changing, the only thing you could change is yourself. so like, even though like, like I didn't want to have sex with Taylor because he was, you know, not doing the things I wanted him to do. It wasn't loving me in the way that I wanted him to. He wasn't changing. And but I had to change my heart and not look at him like he was disgusting, you know, and not look at him like, my gosh, like you're just sitting there breathing. And I'm like, you know, it's like I genuinely had to make girl heart to like love him more. OK, what is he doing right?
Okay, like that would be something my coach would say is like, what find the things that he's doing right? And you know, and be intimate when you don't want to. And so it's just like this concept of like doing things when I didn't want to do them. And I know that through our relationship with God, that has been instrumental and very helpful to really clinging to our faith because that is it's all about doing things you don't want to do and be having that unconditional love and God loves us regardless of all the things that we do wrong. And so it's like, I'm not God, like I don't have the
ability to judge him for what he's doing and so I have to I have to love him unconditionally as well. So it started with changing my heart and I think if somebody is struggling with that it's like one know that you can change the relationship if you go first like you know it doesn't change if you don't so it's your choice but I think two like you can really actually learn to change your heart even if it's you know been like that for a long time or you know you can always forgive and you can always change your heart at any time you want it's just a matter of making that choice.
Joey (27:54)
So
good. Yeah, and I think it kind of requires some brute force at the beginning. That's what I've learned too. kind of like you're saying, you don't really want to go first, but you the results of, you know, a good marriage, of a healthy marriage, of a happy marriage. And so it's like, no, the result matters more than what I feel like doing. So I'm going to forget my feelings and I'm going to, you know, do what's right and do the thing that's going to help us get the result that we want. But you kind of need to, you kind of have that brute force from time to time.
Kaseena (28:22)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you just kind of do it and you doesn't feel right or like, it's like it feels forced and you're like, oh, I think you're complimenting your spouse and you don't want to and you're like, oh, I like your pants today. And you're like, I don't want to say anything nice to them. But like you just have to start somewhere, know, like it's like that's where it started. And even sometimes now, like, there's something nice, something nice, even though don't want to. Yeah. No, that's yeah.
Joey (28:51)
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Kaseena (28:51)
Yeah, definitely true.
Joey (29:20)
And so if you're tired of feeling like you're never gonna get in shape, just click on the link in the show notes and grab the guide today. It's totally free and it might just be the thing you need to start feeling healthier physically and emotionally. No, no, yeah, it's like, you wearing that shirt yesterday? It looks just as good as yesterday. It looks great. It's so That's awesome. What were the main lessons that you would share?
Kaseena (29:38)
That's
Joey (29:47)
with maybe the younger you that's listening now who maybe never saw a good marriage growing up. In other words, what would you say on how you can build a healthy marriage? I know we've touched on a bunch of things so far, but what would you say specifically to your younger self?
Kaseena (30:01)
I like everybody experiences different things. So whoever's listening, it's like, you know, your parents might've been into one thing. You know, everyone has such a different experience if they've gone through divorce. I would just say the one thing I would tell myself is like, don't worry about everything else that's going on and don't worry about what you've gone through because all of it can change. And just like have way more hope than you do right now. Like start, you know, really think about
things positively and what you do want and just know that you have to seek out association and people and whatever it is that you can dream of like relationship wise and just know that if something's really really bad it can also be really really really good. ⁓ It's just you haven't seen it, haven't felt it, you haven't experienced it so what I tell myself is just like don't lose hope and know that this is nothing. This is not what life is.
It's just the life that you've experienced and you're going to one day use it to, you know, do something with it. You know, like I truly believe everything would go through. Like I didn't ever think I would be here, you know, sharing my story, but you know, it's all for a reason. And so, you know, it's part of your story for a reason, but it doesn't have to stay that way.
Joey (31:16)
there.
Hope, that's huge. I remember hearing a quote, I think it was from the author GK Chesterton, he said that hope means hoping when things feel hopeless. Yeah. And so I think that's like so good, we need to hear that. ⁓ What would you say are some of like the most helpful tips that you've learned from mentors or you've put into action in your own marriage when it comes to conflict? Because one of the things that we hear a lot from our audience is that they saw conflict handled very poorly growing up. I'm sure you and I can both relate to that. So yeah, what did you learn about navigating that difficult world of conflict?
Kaseena (31:46)
I would say what I saw was a lot of anger, explosion, like emotions and isolation. So one side would isolate and the other side would blow up. I just saw, yeah, things being expressed, but like the root of the problem wasn't quite being handled. And so what I learned through mentorship was that if you don't grow yourself emotionally, then it'd be really hard. It's really hard to just have like breakthrough in your conversations. And so what that means for
My husband as my mentor would say, okay, like, how was your tone when you communicated that? And I was like, oh, yeah, probably not good. And like, how was your face? I have a lot of attitude. I'm definitely not, my husband sometimes calls me a bull because I just like, I want to like, you know, go all in very tight bay and I have a lot of attitude, but I had to learn to like scale that back and like, okay. And he'll tell me now, but we've learned.
that we are both giving off a certain energy and we're giving off a certain vibe when we communicate. what we do now, what I learned from our mentors at the time is I just ask them like, is it right now a safe time to communicate? Because he could be feeling tired from work, he could be hungry, it could be, there could be so many things going on, he could be feeling frustrated with something else. But if I bring up.
problems in him. Like I might be making the whole thing worse. And so we just learned like tone, tact, and timing. It's like how you say things, what you say, the timing of when you say it. ⁓ Our mentors really helped us again and again and again with figuring out how to create this environment where when we were talking, like we can actually hear each other versus it just be like this fight that we're like, okay, guess what we fought and nothing else.
Joey (33:36)
Yeah, no, you get nowhere. You go in circles. And I love that like kind of tough love that you talked about before. I think that that's such a good reminder. I'm going to definitely use that even on myself. Like, Hey, if you want things to stay the same, you don't have to do anything about it. No one's forcing you. That's great. love that. ⁓ so no, no, really good. And I appreciate you going through all that. One of the things I noticed on your socials, you know, on Tik Tok is that some of your most viral posts.
are encouraging wives to prioritize sex. know we talked about sex a little bit, but I want to go a little bit deeper here. It clearly strikes a chord. And I know there's a lot of men in the comments talking about it. So I'm curious, what's going on? Why do you think there's such a need for content like that? And what's your message maybe to the men and the women who are
Kaseena (34:18)
You know, it's funny, I accidentally had a real go-vote, really viral, I decided I'm gonna share about, you know, a conversation that my husband and I had. I named the video, like, Being a Hoe Changed My Husband Into My Dream Man, because essentially when I started to show up emotionally and intimately, he really started to feel seen and loved and that like truly spoke to his character.
And what I learned from our mentors was that like, you know, they gave us advice to don't go longer than 72 hours without having sex. They're like, just don't do it. Like whatever you do, don't do that. So we started scheduling it and we started like, you know, it was very like rigid at first, but it was like, okay, like this is advice. I'm going to take it and see what happens. And when I started to show up in that area, my husband really started to grow a bigger heart and he started to change. I,
I realized that me using sex as like manipulation or as like something where maybe I wanted to like control things. Like if it wasn't my way, things weren't going the way I wanted, then I would shut down physically. And when I let go in that area and started to show up, regardless of how things were going and be more intimate with him, he truly transformed. And I was like, oh my God, this is the best thing. But I don't think a lot of wives understand that.
like they have a key to the man's heart. They just don't know what that like they don't really understand that they're not utilizing it and it's right there and ⁓ putting it on socials I realized my gosh like guys are yearning to be seen. They want it. They want to feel loved. They want to feel like they want attention from their spouse and yes I understand that you know the wives are hurting and there's probably reasons why they're not wanting to give them attention but I mean at what point do you
why are you in the relationship? like, start to find the good things. And so I think sharing these things on social media, I never wanted to have my PhD about that. Like it was like not what I dreamed of and it actually made me quite uncomfortable to talk about it online, but to realize the responses were wild. Like I just started growing like crazy and a lot of men were asking for help and it just was like, wow, this is a problem. Like it wasn't just our relationship. It's a lot of couples that are struggling in this area and
maybe that could be their breakthrough just like it was for us.
Joey (36:36)
So good. And it would be interesting. I'm not aware of research on the topic, but just how many marriages in America or in the world are like sexless right now? Are you aware of any research on that? imagine it's pretty, a pretty wild number.
Kaseena (36:50)
God, I know divorce is so high still. And I did a poll on my Instagram stories and I asked about fruitful marriages, did you grow up in a marriage that you loved seeing or even did you grow up in divorce? And was like 99 % of people all were either divorced or grew up in a marriage they didn't love. And I'm gonna guess a lot of those were sexless. A lot of those marriages that are not radiating light and love. We weren't radiating anything great when we were intimate.
But yeah, I don't know. I don't know any numbers there. I just know that it's not common. I don't think people talk about it in movies. It's always the guy's the animal. The guy lost sex for this, isn't it? But in movies, they don't make it out to like this special bond that keeps the, it's not the glue to your relationship. Sex is just kind of like, to me, I always felt immoral thinking about sex. I kind of felt like dirty. was like my mentor's pig gives a book. It's called Sheep Music.
and it has a lot of biblical principles in there and it talks about it was like it for me i kind of started reading it because it was talking about things through god and it was like okay like i'm not immoral if i read if i read about this i first when they gave the book to me i wanted to throw it in the trash because i was like i like no i don't want anything to do with this like this is bad
like it just made me uncomfortable. But as I realized and I started to open it and read a few chapters and I was like my husband he's like loved the book obviously he's like this chapter's good and this chapter's good and he's like it's so funny like but I just started to realize like okay like I want him to read the marriage books that I want him to read about communication that I should read this book about intimacy and so if if you need a book about that that's a great like if anyone's listening that's a great book but yeah I remember
feeling super uncomfortable when I started going down that journey. And so to think about how my whole page is starting to become about that, I never thought I'd be here now. But I think a lot of people are struggling with this topic.
Joey (38:51)
Yeah, no, and there's such a deep topic and we could only go so deep into it in this conversation because we only have so much time, but it's I know I think that there's so many layers there and it kind of depends on your background, but I can relate with you when it comes to like.
this shame around sex and sexuality that's definitely a big problem that seems to be pretty pervasive in America, especially in like religious circles. And so anyway, no, think it's really healthy to see like, no, no, like within your marriage, like sex is meant to be amazing. It's meant to be like you said, this glue that bonds you. I have this theory that the condition of your sex life reflects the condition of your marriage.
Yeah, if it's like crappy then your marriage is probably pretty crappy. Like if it's unhealthy and non-vibrant then your marriage is probably dull as well. so, so yeah, no, I'm tracking right with you and I think like it's so good that you're, you've clearly hit a nerve when I was like prepping for this interview. I'm like, people want more of this. And so yeah, any, any final thing you'd say there when it comes to kind of your message to men and women, like what's the takeaway? What should they go and do?
If you come from a divorced or broken family, or maybe you know someone who does, we offer more resources than just this podcast. Those resources include things like a book, free video courses, speaking engagements, a free assessment, online community, and much more. All of our resources are designed to help you heal from the trauma that you've endured and build virtue so you can break that cycle and build a better life. And so if you want to view those resources for yourself or someone that you know, just go to restoredministry.com slash resources or click on the link in the show notes.
Kaseena (40:22)
think, well, seeing the desire, a lot of guys seem to have a lot of hopeless comments as well. It's like, oh, like, you know, she doesn't desire me. It's all like, this is just how women are. And I don't think women want to be this way. Like, I don't think women want to be like, make you feel the way you feel if you're in a position where you're like, you know, wanting to be desired more. I just think we genuinely don't know. think like when my husband, he specifically, he like built skillsets to learn how to communicate over years.
It wasn't like this in the beginning, but he finally, I've had a breakthrough conversation with me where he said like, you are like rejecting me and it makes me feel like I'm not worth it. And I keep trying to come on and I'm the only one that initiates. I'm the only one that like tries and I feel gross. And then makes, you know, it's like guys, then they want to go somewhere else to meet their sexual needs. And it's like, I realized like I wasn't protecting my marriage when I was pushing him away and then making him feel like.
Like I wasn't the one that was going to be the one that completed him in that area. And so when he really opened up, like, and was very vulnerable, I think, like, that was the key to my heart was like, he shared his emotions and his feelings about like, this isn't just about like, you know, the fact that I'm wanting to be physical, like I want emotional connection here too. ⁓
And so we actually just came out, we launched a little like seven day guide for men. I posted it specifically on my TikTok, I haven't launched it on my Instagram yet. But it's like seven days of like application points of things that like my husband did to help me open up my heart. And like if guys really want more results in this area, like they can take action right now. Some guys just wanna complain and that's okay too. But a lot of the guys that are reaching out asking for help, I think like my husband always tells me like,
Give me something to do and I'll do it. Like if you offer to clean the house, I'll like give me a clear direction. Because I don't know what you mean when you say this, this and this. When you say I want you to like want me more, like that doesn't make any sense in my brain. And so it's like I need like specific direction. So in that like seven day guide, it's like a specific video with like, hey, give her a specific compliment on her character. Has nothing to do with her body. Like things that like would really make.
a wife feel noticed because I think that guys are just unaware. Like they have no idea that they're also the ones that are closing off that intimacy. so yeah, I think it's just, it's just me about making things simpler for the wife, the wife understanding how big of a deal it is and the husband understanding how simple it is to make their wife want to desire them more. It's just, it's just, you have to break it down. It's like, if you take the whole marriage book and then get like five action points and be like, okay, what do I do?
Like what do I specifically do because I think guys would do a lot more of it if they just knew what to do. Like my husband always just give me an example, I'll do it. He always says that but if I don't know, you're gonna drive me crazy because I don't know what to do. ⁓
Joey (43:14)
Yeah, no.
So good. No, we, I know we're kind of simple creatures as men, like just tell us, like give us a to-do list of specific things like you said that we need to do and we'll do them. And no, it's so good. I, I remember Dr. Gary Chapman and the five love languages talking about, yeah, just that whole situation that you mentioned where, you know, I remember him telling a, I think it was him who told the story just about
you know, these sexless marriages, these marriages where there wasn't that physical intimacy in the men, you know, the love tank being so empty that they then sought it in an affair and, you know, in porn and like other unhealthy ways of like using their sexuality. And I'm not, you know, saying it's like, you know, it's just on the wives because of you, you know, men are going into this. Like men have personal responsibility here too. But yeah, I think this is a big problem. And, on the flip side too, like you're saying, like it's not all the wives' fault. And I don't hear you saying that, but it's like as men we need to step up, like you're saying.
communicate better and do those things to make our wives feel loved so that we'll be more open to it. So good. I wish we could talk forever. You wrote something really beautiful on social ⁓ about your marriage. You said, I wanted to walk away. The damage felt too deep. The work felt too heavy and I didn't know if we had it in us. Then I remembered the little girl inside me, the one who sat on the stairs listening to arguments, the one who begged in silence for her parents to just try harder, the one who promised she'd do things differently. So I did.
I showed up, we both did, and it didn't just heal our marriage, it healed the parts of me that I didn't even know were broken. If you're in the middle of the hard, you're not alone. Keep going. So good. To a spouse maybe who's listening right now who is in that really tough spot, who maybe wants to quit, what would you add to that?
Kaseena (44:55)
That's so deep. you're touching a chord because it's like that is true and it's like, I just remember feeling like I wish I could change everything as a little girl. It would just be to like be the best version of you.
and don't lose hope. It's like, I think there's always something more we can do. And I think in those moments, if you're thinking about giving up, it's like, there's probably more you can do. Not saying that every marriage should. I'm not saying divorce also is never an option and it shouldn't ever work because I think that there are healthy times where maybe it might be the best option. But majority of the time, I think that there can be a lot more done before before walking away. And so it would just be like truly dig deep and truly get help.
and just like, don't do this on your own. Don't feel like you have to do everything on your own. And that the relationship you're having affects everybody around you. And in fact, if you don't have kids, it's your family around you, it's your community. You know, if you have a faith you're representing to us, it's like, we want to represent God in the best way possible. And so through having a strong, strong marriage, like we can actually attract more people to know and love God through that. And so it's like, it's not just the marriage, justice isn't about you.
It's about everybody that's attached to you guys.
Joey (46:12)
Well, so good. Yeah, I can agree more that exhausts every option and exhaust them again like seriously Yeah, I mean what I've seen from a lot of the marriages I know they're falling apart like one of the problems this isn't always the case is that they never ask for help another problem is that they like tiptoe into getting help and they don't ever
Kaseena (46:20)
Again.
Joey (46:34)
their whole heart into it. And then they're like, well, we tried therapy, but it didn't really work. And again, maybe they had a bad therapist or an incompetent one, but I think that there's so much to be said for fighting for it. And then like you said, I would just echo too, you know, in cases of like abuse or violence, and that's obviously a separate conversation, separate situation, get to safety. But in, you know, the far majority of marriages that ended in divorce, more could have been done. And then there's data to back that up too. I say this a lot in the podcast, so the audience is probably tired of hearing it. But they did research on this and they found that over
little over 70 % of divorces who were in low conflict situations where there wasn't like plates being thrown and violence and threat of death, abuse, things like that. Doesn't mean there weren't problems, but it wasn't those dire situations where we'd say, okay, something needs to change for the safety of the spouse and the kids. Anyway, just, yeah, totally agree with you. And on that note, one of the resources to help maybe someone who's struggling or who just wants to...
you know, make their marriage as healthy and happy as it can be, you have a course. Tell us a little bit about ⁓ who is that course for and what's the transformation you would say that you want people to experience by going through it.
Kaseena (47:40)
Yeah, I think that there's ⁓ really lot of great things that I touch on. It's for me, it's I think, you know, we start with foundational things like values. The course is really for anybody that wants to grow in their marriage. Like it's label, it's titled F Divorce. ⁓ But you don't have to be on the verge of getting a divorce. I think there's a lot of people that are hurting that are yet quite thinking like, I need a divorce, but they still want help. I just like that name because it's catchy. I also feel very strongly about
not getting a divorce, it goes with my brand very well. But I think that there's just different, you know, it's eight modules, there's different things in there that really talk about just the foundation of how to like really get to a better, you know, foundation with your spouse, how to communicate, how to fight fair, how important intimacy is, and just my husband's perspective, he actually is on one of the modules as well, where he just talks about like what it feels like from the husband's perspective, because maybe, you know,
There's a lot of husbands out there that haven't yet learned how to communicate, but I think it's important for the husband and the wife to see, like this can be talked about. And so I think that that is important as well. But really, gosh, there's a lot in there. It's not the longest course, but it's very potent. And I think that going through it multiple times and then also there's resources that I recommend on there that really instrumental like books and things like that, know, reflective questions and I think stuff like that.
shouldn't be done too fast. think people need time to really digest. But overall, it's just about breaking chains. It's about, you know, being a better version of you and being willing to go first. So you have a little bit of everything there, mindset, tools, applications, steps to take. And then I also obviously talk about like how important coaching was for me as well.
Joey (49:25)
And the shortness of it is probably a benefit for a lot of people. I remember Alex Hormozzi saying that it's not the seconds of value, it's how much value per second. And I there's so much truth in that. no, I wish you a ton of success with that. If people want to get it, how do they do that?
Kaseena (49:40)
Right now through my Instagram. So I have on my TikTok my guide for the husbands and I might combine some of my offer, like the different things I offer there, but on my Instagram, you can find it in my bio if you check it out there and it's pretty out there. It says that's divorce. So you'll find it pretty easily.
Joey (49:57)
It's a good hook. It's provocative for sure. I definitely appreciate the work you're doing. We'll put all the links guys in the show notes so you can check that out. If nothing else, you can follow Casina and just get a taste of her content. want to give you the final word and I'm so glad that you came on the show. It's been good talking with you, but I want to give you the final word. You wrote this. said, if you didn't come from a healthy family, make sure a healthy family comes from you. What's your advice to, again, the younger you listening right now who maybe doubts that that's possible for them one day?
Kaseena (50:27)
Well, I think if you've heard this, you already know what I'm like. You know that I'm gonna just tell you that you've already heard the truth and so whether you choose to unhear it or not, you know that there is another way. If you've heard one person that's overcome, then you have no excuse. And that's not my... Like I say that with all of the love in the world, but like once I heard the truth once, it was my choice whether I didn't want to believe it. And so I would just say like if you...
have an open mind and you do believe that one person has overcame, then just know that you can too.
Joey (51:04)
That wraps up this episode. this podcast has helped you, feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach even more people. closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the
