#092: Is Divorce Good or Bad for Children? | Katy Faust
Is divorce good or bad for children? There’s tons of confusion around that question. In this episode, speaker and author Katy Faust offers answers with clarity and tons of research. She also touches on:
How does divorce affect the children?
Is divorce really worse than the death of a parent?
What do children need that marriage provides?
How do you navigate speaking about your parents in a respectful yet honest way?
What’s your advice to parents considering divorce?
Buy Katy’s book: Them Before Us: Why We Need a Global Children's Rights Movement
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Katy Faust
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TRANSCRIPT
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Is divorce good or bad for Children? There's tons of confusion around that question. But thankfully in this episode, speaker and author Katie Foss offers answers with clarity and tons of research to that question. She also answers. How did divorce become so prevalent? It's divorce really worse than the death of a parent. Really interesting discussion and research around that. What do Children need that marriage provides as a child? How do you navigate? Speaking about your parents in a respectful yet honest way and what's your advice to parents considering divorce? Tons of great content, had a lot of research. So keep listening. Welcome to the resort podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Julie Pontarelli. This is episode 92. As I mentioned, my guest today is Katie Faus. Katie is the founder and president of them before us, a global movement defending children's right to their mother and father. She publishes, speaks and testifies widely on why marriage and family are matters of justice for Children. Her articles have appeared in Newsweek USA today, the Federalist Public discourse, the Daily Signal, the Washington examiner, the American Mind and the American Conservative Katie helped design the teen edition of Kenya Vox which studies sex, marriage and relationships from a natural law perspective. She is the author of the book. Then before us, why We need a global children's rights movement. She and her husband are raising their four Children in Seattle. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Katie Katie. It's so good to have you on the show. I've wanted this for a while. So thank you for making time to join us. Well, on our little free chat here, I just realized that I've been a fan of yours for, I probably saw you like, right when you first launched because once you started talking like, wait a second, I've been on that website. So it's a joy to be with you. Thank you so much. Now you're the bigger deal and we're big fans. So thank you for the work that you're doing and I'm so excited to learn from you. I'd like to start with your story if that's okay. Like so many of us listening, even your trauma in your life, including your parents, divorce. What happened there and how did it affect you? First of all, I'm so glad that you understand that divorce is traumatic. You know, the narrative that our culture tells about divorce and really all forms of modern family is the kids will be fine. The kids will be happy if the adults are happy. And the reality is, as you know, the research shows that this is a deeply traumatic life altering event for kids and not only is it a one time event, it usually leads to multiple losses and transitions and other forms of trauma and, and lost. So you're just, you're framing is exactly right. And I'm so grateful that teens and young adults are coming to get validation from you because literally there's just hardly any sources in the world that will even tell kids that. Yeah, you are wrong to feel hurt about this. So, my parents were married until I was 10. I was clueless. I had no idea there was anything wrong and it was just, you know, some kids know and some kids don't and I was just absolutely oblivious and our parents sat down, um, and told me one night that they were getting a divorce and I was devastated. My world was absolutely rocked. Um, I ended up having like physical symptoms the first year afterwards of bizarre stomach pains that would like just, just come out of nowhere and debilitate me in the middle of a play date. And I remember my, my dad having to like, carry me places because I couldn't walk, you know, and I remember this one time where I was sitting in class ready to do like a, like a test and the teacher said, okay, pick up your pencils okay and go And then like, five seconds later, pencils down, it's time to stop. And I was like, what? And like 20 minutes had gone by and I hadn't even realized that, you know what I mean? Like, I just was so lost in the sadness and the upheaval of my life and this new reality. So my and I was petrified because the only kind of divorces that I had ever seen were the kind of divorces where the dad moves away, or the kid sees their dad once a month or only on the weekends. And my dad and I were really close, my mom and I were really close and so I was just so afraid that I was gonna lose, especially my dad, you know, so long story, they actually had a very amicable divorce and lived very close to one another. I could go see whichever one I wanted whenever I wanted. And so I ended up remaining in pretty close relationship with both of them throughout honestly, through the rest of my life. And for that, I'm very, very grateful. But, you know, the story is always, is not just That one time event of we're now getting divorced, it's really what ends up being nonstop change and instability after that. Right? So my father dated, he had, had a lot of several different girlfriends and then remarried. But very soon after the divorce, my mom re partnered with a woman and they have been in a relationship together ever since then, since I was 10. And so they've been a really big part of my life with the remaining of my adolescent years and then as a young, married and as a young mother and now as a mother of teenagers, so we, we've got it all going on and my husband's from a divorced home too, but his was not the kind of divorce, like my parents could still be in the same room together and we would sometimes spend holidays together. But for his parents, it was war, you know, and not just war with each other, but they used him against the other parent. So, you know, even though my story sounds somewhat dramatic, he had a more of a conventional, you know, both of his parents remarried heterosexual and it was very, very hard. I mean, his heart, they divorced when he was three and his mother actually was killed suddenly when he was 16. And he would probably say that the divorce was more traumatic than his mother's death. So we are definitely in that camp of people who are seeking to parent the family. We wish we had had as kids. We want to be the people who were, you know, especially my husband when we were dating. He would say, are you serious about this relationship? Because my Children will never live through what I've lived through. If we get married, it is forever and I'm, and I mean, he would just have me like, recommit all through our dating and engagement. He's like I am not going to do this unless you are all in because he vowed that his Children wouldn't live through what he lived through. Wow. Incredible. Thank you for sharing and man, yeah, my heart breaks for you and for your husband and I can relate on so many levels. And you know, I know uh in the book, in your book, you mentioned so clearly how there's really no such thing as a good divorce, even if some are less dramatic. And so what we'll get into all that for sure, especially the difference between low conflict and high conflict. That's a really important distinction that you make so clearly in your book. But I wanted to stop for a second on a pain point that our listeners deal with a lot and that is talking about this topic at all. So I'm curious how you as a public figure, talk about this topic, navigate, speaking about your parents in particular in a respectful, yet an honest way because like I said, there's a painful point for our listeners where we want to be honest, truthful about what we've been through that our parents actions and decisions harmed us, but still honor them because we love them. Like we want to respect them, we want the best for them. So how do you navigate that little trip? The ministry trade because when I am not doing children's rights advocacy, I'm deeply involved in church. My husband's a pastor, we do tons of counseling. I do tons of walking with people in difficult situations and you know, the women's ministry world in my life. We've got a little saying that says you don't need to tell everybody everything, but you do need to tell somebody everything. And so somebody needs to hear every little corner of the pain and the confusion and the loss that you've experienced. It's good to do that with a counselor, but it's I would say better to do it with a trusted friend. You've got to let somebody in, right? Because the areas where people don't get to come in those areas very quickly start to control you. So I think that you should tell somebody everything but probably not publicly. So for my situation, it actually is fairly easy for me to speak well of my parents because there's some things that I'm not going to share about them. You know, some aspects of things leading up to their divorce, post divorce. That's just not my information to share. So I don't, I can talk honestly about kind of give an overview of how it impacted me the divorce. But the reality is I don't share their dirt. I just don't, but I can absolutely share the things that they did. Well, like both of them remained very connected to me. Very intentional. They were, they did their best to live at peace with one another. And I will also say this, that as they re partnered and remarried, neither of them, they did a very good job of making clear that their new partners were not my parent, right? I had a mother and a father. Neither of their new partners or, or spouses ever tried to replace or step into the role of my mom and dad, which I thought was very smart. So I think that, that my parents, you know, obviously it was the undoing of the home that I loved, you know, and wanted every child wants their mom and dad to love them and love each other. That's, I mean, like, I've never heard it more simply than that. I'll tell you what every kid wants. They want their mom and dad to love them and they want their mom and dad to love each other. That's it. And if they're not loving each other, right. That's a, that's a sort of a death for the child in some ways. But even if they weren't loving each other, at least they continued loving me and I still had a full relationship with both of them. Beautiful. Thanks for that advice. That is helpful. And are you familiar with the podcast? The place we find ourselves? It's a great podcast. Yeah, it's a great podcast. He's a therapist out in Colorado and he really makes healing simple, which I love. And so he talks about trauma and how you heal from. And one of the things he teaches is that neurobiologists have found that um one measure of brain health is neural connectivity. So for everyone listening, if you imagine your brain is like a web of connections, the more connections you have, the healthier, your brain, the healthier you are as a person. And he says that the act of reflecting on your story in a constructive way. Um And in addition to that, telling your story to someone who can receive in an empathetic way, actually heals your brain because it increases connectivity, thereby making you healthier more whole. And so I think that advice is fantastic and we're big proponents of that as well. So I love that I want to shift gears to your book if that's okay. So in the chapter on divorce, the main point you really make throughout that whole chapter is that divorce is traumatic and it's bad for Children like we said at the top of the show and you prove it so clearly. So I'd like to get into some of that proof. But before we do, I want to give you the chance to elaborate a little bit more on what you just said, which is, you know, what is it that marriage provides for Children that they need so badly? You mentioned it already. But I want to give you a chance to go and if you don't mind. I'll back up a couple more steps and just say what I do if that's okay. So, back when the whole marriage debate was raging, um, in 2012 kind of first came on my radar. Um, what I heard people saying, you know, in, in an effort to advance gay marriage is kids don't care if they have two moms or two dads. And what that means is kids don't care if they've lost their mom or dad. Because every time you're looking at a picture of a kid with two dads, you're looking at a kid with no mom. Every time you're looking at a picture of kids with moms, you're looking at a picture of a child who has lost their father. And you know, we've been doing youth ministry and I have a background in adoption work. And I think there's very few things kids care more about than being loved and known by their mom and dad. And so to me, it was just this huge, it was like the weaponization of child pain to advance a political agenda. And I totally couldn't handle it. It like it enraged me. And so it got me into writing about the importance of mothers and fathers. And then because I realized that the whole marriage debate around gay marriage especially obsessively focused on what adults want. But then the more that I did like research and on all of this, I realized everything that has to do with marriage and family is always focused on obsessively on what the adults want, whether you're talking about like reproductive technologies, it's so focused on the pain and the longing of people with infertility, you know, or people with same sex attraction that want to have a child or cohabitation or polygamy or like all of these different topics, everything we hear about, it always has to do with elevating adult feeling, desire, longing, identity above the well being of kids. And you can see that plainly in the conversation around divorce. It is always about what the adults want, what's going to meet their needs. It's their suffering, it's their longing, it's their new romance, it's their unfulfilled part that always takes center stage and the kids just have to stick it and it makes me so angry. You know, I'm like all of us. I am surrounded by kids who are, who have just been told their parents are divorcing, who have been in this process for a year or two, who are 10 or 20 years out of it and it very often leads leaves a lifelong wound. So my I started a nonprofit in 2018 in essence saying that Children have a right to their mother and father and every question about marriage and family, whether it's the definition of marriage, how we think about divorce, same sex, parenting, sperm donation, egg donation, surrogacy, adoption, polygamy. Every conversation we have about marriage and family in essence boils down to matters of justice for Children. And that is, are you protecting children's right to their mother and father or are you violating children's rights to their mother and father? So we wrote a book about that. We, me and my co author Stacey that goes through each of those topics. Chapter one is just all about why Children do have a natural right to their mother and father. And it's not a stretch, it's a pretty well established, nearly universally agreed upon principle. Chapter two is all about why biology matters in the parent child relationship. And this is pretty relevant probably to your audience because they have experienced the dissolution of their parents', marriage of their two biological parents. And then very often they have begun to be parented by somebody who was unrelated to them in a handful of redemptive cases that has gone well because that unrelated adult is genuinely seeking to step into the child's life in a way that is redemptive, but in the majority of cases that has not increased child well being. And that's because research shows that unrelated adults are less protective, less connected, less invested in Children than their own mother and father. In. Chapter three, we talk about why gender matters in the parent child relationship, why moms and dads offer distinct and complementary benefits. And then we talk about why marriage is a matter of justice for Children because it is the only institution that unites the two people to whom Children have a natural, right? So it's on that foundation that we then talk about divorce. And so we go right into divorce right after that, right? Because if you're talking about the legal movement to destroy the family that didn't begin with same sex marriage that began with no fault, divorce, no fault. Divorce was the original redefinition of marriage. That is when we started to transform what used to be the most child friendly institution the world has ever known marriage into just another vehicle of adult fulfillment. So that's, that's sort of like leading up to divorce and like kind of the foundation needed to know before we address divorce, let's say with no fault, divorce for a second. How did that come about? Because you say in the book that divorce was once a rarity, it wasn't a very common thing but that all changed with no fault divorce like you just mentioned. So what is no fault, divorce versus at fault divorce? And how did that all come about? Most places, most laws, civil and religious have recognized that there are times when a marriage might need to dissolve, you know, biblically, there was exceptions for adultery or that was a justifiable reason to end a marriage. In terms of our civil law, we have largely regarded the three A's adultery abuse, abandonment, right? That if you were guilty of breaking your marriage vow to have and to hold in richer for poorer sickness and health till death. Do you part? Right? That's your vow. And if you violated the vow because you were abusive because there was adultery or because you abandoned the family or your spouse, society and civil government would punish you. Right? And so what that did is this at fault divorce standard actually pressured the couple to keep their marriage together because what would happen if dad ran off with the secretary? Well, first of all the courts wouldn't give him 50% custody in the house and society would look down on him and say you are, that is a home wrecking floozy. You need to go back to your wife and kids. How dare you do this to them? Right. So that's sort of the at fault model where somebody is deemed at fault for breaking up the marriage. Well, the problem was in the late sixties, especially you had people that were simply unhappy in their marriages and they wanted a divorce. But because no fault, divorce, divorce was not an option, they would then have to sort of lie and say, well, James had an affair and that's why we're getting a divorce, but James really hadn't had an affair. They just both wanted out of the marriage. And so we began with no fault, divorce going well, this is so mean adults have to lie and say they did something that they didn't do. Let's create something called no fault, divorce where you can get out of the marriage when nobody is at fault of abuse, adultery, abandonment. And so that's more humane, right? And actually Ronald Reagan was the first governor to legalize this in California in 1969 because he himself had to go through a situation where they got a at Fault divorce when nobody was at Fault because he wanted out of one of his marriages. So what that led to was an absolute explosion of divorces and no fault, divorce very quickly became divorce against your will, right? Instead of it both parties knowing, you know what? I just don't think this is working for us. No fault. Divorce meant that almost always there was an innocent party or somebody that was desperately trying to make the marriage work and hold the family together and be a responsible parent and one party that just wanted out and simply wasn't willing to do the hard thing on behalf of the family and the kids. But the no fault divorce model Required that both spouses be treated equally. There was no favor given to the innocent spouse or the faithful spouse. The judge was required to split things 5050 or award 50% custody or split the assets down even though very often there was one spouse who was misbehaving or not adhering to their vows. So Reagan later went on and said that was the biggest mistake of his political career was legalizing no fault, divorce because it had such a devastating impact all across the country. Wow. Fascinating in that background. No. Reading your book. That was, I was learning that for the first time even with this work that I do. So, it was so insightful and helpful. And I think one of the things I've heard, a lot of people say when, when this topic comes up with no fault, divorce is that, you know, they say without no fault, divorce, spouses, especially women will be stuck in abusive marriages. What's your response? It is true that it is sometimes hard to prove abuse. My concern with that argument is if there is abuse going on and you get divorced through no fault system, there's no way to keep the child from the abusive parent. There's really abuse going on. It must be proved they lose custody because to me it's not enough to say, well, he's abusive, he's unstable. I'm going to get a no fault divorce and get out of this. When the kids still going to have to deal with that, they're just not going to have the buffer of the same responsible parent. So there are some cases where I know where some women have left abusive marriages through no fault, divorce. I would rather have it be an at fault divorce and we punish the guy, punish him if there is real abuse going on, he needs to be punished and he needs to be put in prison. So I do think that sometimes very often whether it's so called emotional abuse or some other kind of physical abuse, oftentimes that abuse is a veil for, I just want to get out of here, but I don't want to look like morally responsible, especially the emotional abuse. You know, I'm like, look, I've been around the block enough time. I have counseled people and struggling marriages. I know that some of those people say this is emotional abuse. And I'm like, you know, it's not, it's a legitimate disagreement or it's a personality difference or it's a, you're actually asking for something destructive and unreasonable. And he is saying, no, that's not emotional abuse. That's somebody willing to go along with what you're saying. So I do agree that there are some times where people use no fault, divorce to get out of a marriage that they should leave or at least a separation. But very often those claims of abuse are not what they, what they seen. And legally, I would rather have the abuse be proved so the guy can go to jail. Yeah. No, it makes so much sense how that would end up being better for the Children especially. And on that topic, I love how you bring in the research on this, the difference between low conflict and high conflict, divorce. I think this is really important to understand because I think a lot of people perhaps assume that the majority of divorces are high conflict situation where there's abuse, there's a threat of death, there's violence, there's, you know, a lot of overt problems and drama at home, but that's not the case. Talk about that. I think that, you know what we see from a lot of media. I think the perception we have is that divorce takes place in these extreme cases, right, where it's a serial cheater or there's abuse going on. And the reality is 70% of divorces break up low conflict marriages, right? The majority of divorces that take place today are not these extreme cases. The majority of them are people who have fallen out of love or who are unwilling to do the hard work. And to be clear, it is hard work. It is hard if you're in a marriage where there's job loss or financial challenges or porn addiction or emotional affairs going on or unpacking childhood baggage. I mean, the reality is you make the vow because it is hard. And the reality is that most divorces take place because somebody is unwilling to do the hard work. And what we say in the book and what we say in our ministry, in our in our organization is it is hard, like keeping a marriage together is difficult. But if the adults are unwilling to do the hard work in those low conflict marriages, what they are saying is this cross is too heavy for me here, kids, you take it instead, it is simply a transference of the hard work. That's so true. And I see that day in day out and the young people that we serve, that we mentor. It's, it's such a transference and you know, there's so many painful stories even in your book. You know, I hear this stuff all the time. Kitty but reading that chapter and divorce in your book, I had to like take some breaks and be like, this is so sad how much these Children suffer so oft in silence because no one's speaking for them. So I'm grateful that you are since you're such a so knowledgeable on statistics. I was wondering about the divorce rate. That's something that comes up a lot. What is the divorce rate currently? And are there any challenges to getting those statistics these days? Because I know there's been some changes in the way that we collect? Well, first of all, let me just say that I had done a lot of research on same sex parenting and I had really been in the reproductive technology world before I wrote the book. And divorce was probably the area where I was the least familiar with the research and it was the divorce chapter that I had to step away from a couple of times. It was the divorce chapter that I was like, and it's not like it's not like I don't have my own personal experience it's not like it's unfamiliar to me in terms of the lives of people around me. But I guess the research showed me the reality of what I had been seeing for a while. You know, the one statistic that really got me, That I was like that I've seen so many times is shows that in 50% of divorce cases, 50% of the kids who are living in two different homes because their parents divorced, 50% of them develop different personalities, right? They literally become a different person from their mother's house to their father's house because they have different religions. Mom and dad now have different political views. There's different secrets that kids have to keep at each house. There's people in their lives and very often they feel so close to the people at their mom's house and their dad's house, but the two people in those two worlds barely know the other one exists. And so they literally transform themselves into a different person between the drive from mom's house to dad's house. And that was when I just had to stop for a while because I saw that as a kid. I see it now in the lives of kids around me who are in a situation of divorce and it is an absolute cruelty. It's such a cruelty and the fact that we have allowed this to go on virtually unchallenged and unchecked for decades that we have wrecked a generation of kids over this and we never talk about it. It just, I'm generally a very nice person but you talk about these kinds of things and it enrages me because the harm to Children is so strong and so long lasting. So divorce, we did see a peak in terms of divorce rates. We have seen divorce drop in the last couple of decades, but it's not good news. The reason the divorce rate has dropped is because marriage rates have dropped and so fewer people are getting married. Therefore fewer people are getting divorced and fewer people getting married is bad because that means kids aren't being raised in marriages for the first few years of their life before their parents break up. They're being raised in cohabiting relationships before their parents break up. And Children in cohabiting households fair dramatically worse than kids raised in married households. So there's very little positive on the home front when it comes to marriage and divorce rates right now. Okay. Now, that makes so much sense and it is sad. I, yeah, there's so much to say here. One of the statistics that really stood out to me going back to what you said in the, in your book was about Children of divorce than repeating that cycle in their own lives. And I'll just read the snip if that's okay. It goes like this Children of divorce whose parents never remarried are 45% more likely to divorce and those whose parents whose divorced parents married, step parents were 91% more likely to divorce compared with adults raised an intact biological families. That blew me away. Any comments. I think it also blows me away. Right. You would think that a kid who watches their mom and dad divorce and then their mom remarries that they would go okay. Look, marriage is still worth doing marriage. You know, we can do this, but that's ultimately not what they conclude. If your parents divorce, it is going to set you back in terms of going. I don't know if like real love is even possible. But if you see one of your parents remarry, something about that literally makes it more likely that the child will say I can never, I can never get married myself. I should never get married myself. Is it because there is less connectedness investment in the step family situation? Is it because they feel like so much more of an outsider? Is it because marriage now leaves the impression that they'll never get what they really want, which is their own mom and dad getting back together again? I don't know. I can't explain that statistic, but it's not really an argument that you can make from the data if you are a parent who has divorced and you hope and you, and, and it was against your will and you love the institution of marriage and you believe that marriages are wonderful and good. You should probably stay single. You should probably not get remarried because somehow that damages your child's own opinion of the institution of marriage in a way that your divorce didn't. Yeah. And it's a very unpopular thing to say, but there's so much truth in it and it's true. Love requires sacrifice. This whole idea that the purpose of marriage is happiness is just so false and we need to speak out against it whenever we can. Doesn't mean that happiness isn't a part of marriage. It's a good thing to experience joy within marriage. It's not gonna be a fairy tale. And I think especially people in Michael or my generation, I think we were kind of sold on that idea where even though we saw the, you know, misery of a lot of marriages and divorces and just broken families, we had this hope somewhere inside of us. I know I experienced like that simultaneous like terror and fear. Um And at the same time, just like a desire to build something so much better. Yeah, it became almost an idol to me. It was this, you know, this thing that I wanted to be perfect and be so different. So the opposite of what I saw in my parents' marriage, um that it just became this kind of fantasy that I was trying to build. And then I realized love is messy. You know, marriage is messy. We've been married about five years at this point. And uh I've learned that it's, it's not easy, but there's so much beauty in that. And we all know that the hardest things in life, you know, the best things in life are often hard. And so, you know, ask any Navy Seal, ask any Olympic gold medalist how they got to where they are. They didn't do it by sitting on the couch watching Netflix, like they showed up every day they put in the hard work, especially when they didn't feel like it. What should we expect any less in marriage? Well, and you know, we are almost at 25 years in our marriage. It is beautiful and we were idiots when we got married, we were total idiots. We had never seen a healthy marriage, lived out in our home and we had a few examples as kids that we could, you know, and there was one family in particular in my husband's life who showed him what he deserved and it was formative for him. But once we got married, we needed discipleship in this area of our life. So at the different churches that we went to, we would find a couple that was 10 years ahead of us or 15 years ahead of us who had a great marriage. And we were just like, tell us what to do, tell us how to do this. We gave them permission to show us what we were doing wrong. And there would be women that would, that I gave permission to hold me accountable and she would pull me aside after a conversation and she'd say things like, do you see how you undermined your husband in front of his friend? Don't ever do that again? You know, like I needed somebody to just give me tailored advice about this. So it's totally possible. But a lot of us need that recalibration, right? The recalibration of its impossible, it will never happen. But also the recalibration of it's ideal, this is going to save you, right? So you've got to have and the only way you're going to get that is with wise people who have gone before you who can give you that tailored moment by moment advice. So good, I love it. We want to start this program called The School of Love where we pair up young people who come from broken families with healthy marriages and families. So they could just spend time, go over maybe a couple times a month, have a meal with them, help out with chores around the house just to like soak in like you said, they're example, which just again programs you on a subconscious level and how to love, how to build relationships, how to build because like you said, more than anyone else, we learned how to love and how to build relationships and how to build marriages through our parents example. Again, even on a subconscious level but thankfully that programming can be rewritten, the script can be changed. And uh and we believe in that so deeply. So that's something I'd love to talk to you more about that sometimes. That's something that we will at some point because It's a trend we've seen in this podcast, like in the 90 plus interviews we've done at this point. So many people say, you know, it was so formative, like you said, so healing to spend time with this healthy family, with this married couple that wasn't perfect, but they had a really good, beautiful marriage. And that was the same for me. There were two couples who to this day just have so much love and respect for who gave me hope that love could last that it was possible and even showed me by their example of how to do it myself. So, so helpful. Thanks for that tip and to everyone listening, find those people in your life who you can look up to, you can mentor you. And you'd probably be surprised how willing they are to help you if you just ask, start with building that relationship. But in time you can be more intentional and say, hey, you know, I would go to the to the men in the marriage especially and I'd say, hey, I want a good marriage. You know, I come from a broken family. Would you mind mentoring me and helping me here and there? And they were still willing to give good advice. So great, great tip. I want to go back to the research in the limited time that we have together. So, you know, you've clearly demonstrated in the book shows you've researched this topic extensively. What have you learned about how divorce affects the Children in addition to everything else, we've already touched on how does it not affect the Children would be an easier question to answer. And the reality is that it affects Children on every level of their bodies. There's actually a stat that we give beginning of chapter two that talks about father loss, like they've actually studied father loss and in one of those death, divorce and incarceration where the kids that were surveyed in this study that had lost a father to death devils or incarceration and what they found, especially when that happened early on in life, that those Children had shorter telomeres, that is the end cap of their chromosome. So it literally affected Children on the cellular level and telomeres are responsible for health and longevity, right? Children who grow up daughters who grow up without their dad in their home, absent dad, maybe for divorce, maybe for some other reason, those girls end up beginning their menstrual periods on average a year earlier than other girls, right? There's something about father absence that triggers an early reproductive season. And couple that with the father hunger that Children, girls often go through when they don't have a dad. That is one reason why we see drastically higher rates of teen pregnancy in girls whose fathers are not living with them and connected to them. Physically, Children of divorce are more susceptible to getting like common colds, chronic illnesses, like it literally affects their physical health for the rest of their life. People who already had underlying mental health struggles, sometimes the divorce can lead to extreme mental health disorders. So it can be very serious. We obviously see a greater emotional burden on Children. Like I think most of us expect that there's going to be an emotional toll on the kids, but most people sort of conceptualize it as, oh, it's like a cold, it's, you know, the divorce is like a bad cold, they'll get over it. But that's not really what divorce does to a child's emotional state. Children who have divorced parents just have higher emotional challenges and emotional struggles than their peers who are living continually in one home who have never had to deal with that trauma and that destruction, that disruption, Children struggle in school, right. Divorce. We pulled in some, some surveys of test results, you know, for like the S A T s or the equivalent in the UK and these kids will say the divorce absolutely tanked my test scores, right? Kids really struggled academically and then relational e you know, you pulled out that study that shows that kids whose parents divorced the deck is stacked against them When it comes to forming and maintaining their own healthy relationships. And there's a quote, I mean, probably have 30 stories in the divorce chapter of kids who went through divorce. And there's one woman that said, the one thing that my parents divorce taught me if anybody can leave you any time and you'll never see it coming and there's nothing you can do about it. And if you learn that lesson from divorce, why would you ever try? Why would you ever risk forming your own family and getting married? And I actually think that it is because divorce was so with at epidemic levels, when our current millennials are now considering getting married for them, marriage looks so risky. Shacking up seems so low risk, right? When the reality is, it's the opposite, right? Shacking up having relationships have much higher levels of abuse, more, much higher levels of dissolution. The Children of cohabiting parents are more likely to be abused in the collected, more likely to live in poverty. Marriage is and still, you know, was and still is the safest avenue for especially women and Children. But when you've learned those lessons of your parents', divorce, marriage itself feels risky. So it said it's a no, there's nothing good. I mean, there are a few rare cases where separation or divorce might be necessary for the protection of one of the parties or the kids, but there's no child of divorce, overall, whatever situation that fares as well. Statistically as the child raised by their own married, biological mother and father, I love it. You know, it's so important to know this stuff. And for some reason, the myths out there in our culture just say the absolute opposite. And the point you made earlier about your husband's family and just how his mom was tragically killed, you know, when he was 16, that reminds me of the story you told in the book and the study that you quote, that found that the death of parent inflicts less psychological damage on a child um than a divorce does. And that again flies in the face of what our culture says about divorce, which is Children are resilient or if the divorce is better for the parents, it's better for the Children too. So elaborate on that, especially that study, which is fascinating. We're not saying of course that it, you know, you lose your parents tragic accident that that's not a really, really difficult and traumatic thing to go through. Of course, it is, but it's mind boggling that this would be even more traumatic. So why is that? You know, why is it that it's sometimes more traumatic to have parents who divorced? Well, when my husband's mother died, everybody mourned with him. He was not alone. There was so much validation. Everybody looked back and remembered his mother fondly. He had a lot of people who supported him in his loss. But if you look back at often divorce situations, very few people will validate the child's loss. Much of the messages that Children get are. Oh my goodness. You should be so happy that your parents are happy. You get to have two Christmases. Wow. Look at this incredible man that your mom has found now. In essence, the messages are all like you should support your parents, right? You need to validate and support your parents. You should celebrate what's going on with your parents. And so very often in those divorce situations, the child is alone in their grief, nobody's validating it. If one parent looks back at the other parent, it usually is not with fondness. It's often like, oh that man, right? It's a demonization of the child's parents instead. So that creates a huge psychological burden on the child because the child has, in both of those cases, the child has experienced very real loss and trauma. But in one of those cases, the child is surrounded by a community of people who are mourning and remembering together. And then the other one, the kid is absolutely on their own. And oftentimes the world is telling them the exact opposite of what they need to hear. 100% and what makes trauma so devastating on anyone, but especially young people is essentially what happens in the aftermath of it. You know, if like you said, there's people come around you and love you and walk with you through it. Um You're going to fare much better in life than like you said, if you're abandoned, if you're feel like you're rejected, unwanted, like all these things that happen when your parents get divorced and it's just so sad that um there's not more people out there who are talking about this. I'm so glad that you and your organization exists and I want to shift a little bit to parents listening. We have parents listening right now who are considering a divorce? Like right now they're listening, they're considering a divorce. What's your advice to them? You don't have to read my whole book. Just read chapter five. Don't think your kids are special. They're not. Your kids may, may not know you're considering divorce or maybe they're too afraid to tell you what they think because they desperately want your love. And it's very hard for a kid to be honest with their parents because they're so desperate, right for that. Maybe they can't even form the words. But the reality is somebody is going to do the hard thing in this situation. There's no easy answer here. Whatever you are going through, whatever struggle you're experiencing in your marriage, I will not minimize that. It is hard. I have been in a marriage myself. I have been surrounded by a variety of other marriages. The kind of struggles that married couples go through are very hard, especially in certain seasons, they usually don't last. But man, those seasons when you're in the fire feel like it feels like you've just got to get out. But the reality is either you will do the hard thing of working it through finding the healing, doing the counseling, doing your own self examination, changing your own behavior, changing your expectations or your kids will do hard things. Do not imagine a scenario where nobody does hard things. If you don't, your kids will. And if you do, there's a very good chance that things will be better. In a couple of years, we've got several studies at the end of the chapter that talk about remaining in a marriage even when you want to get out. And the very high rates of improvement and happiness if you can persist. But if you choose the no fault, divorce route, your Children will not have a year or two of struggle, they will have a lifetime of struggle. So you are swapping, doing the hard thing in your own marriage for a couple of years for their lifelong struggle. And that is not the narrative of a just decision making process, a just society or adjust family does not ask the week to sacrifice for the strong, you are the parents. You are the strong, you sacrifice for the week, you sacrifice for your Children because the only alternative is your kids sacrificing for you. And that is the no go zone. I can't agree more and there's more information in the book. If you guys want to pick that up, kid even dives into what researchers have to say about kind of that economy. Like if you're in a difficult situation, what's best for the Children, which I thought was fascinating, Amato and Booth in particular Kitty. I was thinking of. Um, did you want to go through that at all? About a motto? There are cases like those 30% of high conflict marriage cases where the child does experience some relief in the wake of a divorce, right? When there are plates being thrown across the kitchen, when there is extreme volatility, oftentimes the kids do experience relief post divorce. Um so you can work that through and talk that through with trusted counselors and advisers. But we have to dispel this idea but but even the kids that do come out of those high conflict marriages who then divorce. Those kids do not fare as well as the parents who worked it out and were able to stay together, right? So sometimes you have to get out. But this narrative that then the kids are going to be fine. No, those kids don't fare as well as the kids who were persistently raised by their married mom and dad. So like we said like there are cases where divorce may be the best option, but that is not the majority of divorces that are taking place today. Yeah, and I think it's assumed that it's, it's safe to assume in most cases that's not your case that work through every possible scenario. And even if you know, one of the things that we see in this um nonprofit that we run is even if there's a need for a temporary separation, that is a tool or a step toward healing the family, bringing the marriage back together, that might be necessary in some cases. Hopefully, that's not necessary, but it might be. And the goal though, which is the difference than what the culture says is to bring the family and the marriage back together instead of just saying, oh, it didn't work out this time. We'll try with someone else. I totally agree. Marriage isn't for the faint of heart. It's work. And like I said, especially in certain seasons, right? Most of us go through a for worse before we get to a for better. And so hopefully you're embedded in a, in a community that can disciple you correct. You encourage, you offer some relief, give you wise counsel, all of us needed. Yeah. So true. Getting at the end of our time together, what will happen to our culture if we continue down this path of this divorce and dysfunction in our families? And what's the solution? Well, we're already seeing it, Children that just can't function. You know, we are seeing rapid increases in all of the social ills that we supposedly care so much about whether it's teen homelessness or teen suicide or seeing pregnancy, child poverty. I mean, every one of those social ills have something in common and that is there overpopulated with fatherless Children and many of them got fatherless through divorce. This idea that post divorce, you're always going to be getting 50 50 with both parents and seeing them all of the time is an absolute myth for a large portion of Children two years after, you know, I think it's about 40% of kids, two years post divorce, they don't see their, their non custodial parent anymore. Very often. Divorce is what leads to the complete loss of a parent. So we are just not going to be able to fix any of the struggles that we have in society unless we get back to this idea that Children have a natural right to their mother and father lifelong marriage is the only way we give to them, the only way we get to them. And the same sex marriage debate has gotten a lot of attention and rightly so, but it didn't start with same sex marriage. It started with divorce. Divorce was the original legal wrecking ball of the lives of Children. And so one thing we do at them before us is we look for any opportunity we can to fight divorce because it really is a matter of justice for Children. So you guys keep doing what you're doing because these victims need healing. We need the support groups, we need the mentoring. We need people that are helping people resolve the trauma. But we also need advocacy. I am so honestly, I'm so sick of all of these laws on every topic going through the state capitals with nobody, nobody representing the child's perspective. Nobody advocating for. They're right. Nobody's saying, wait a second, the adults might like this but you're gonna shackle Children with lifelong loss. So divorce is a part of that. You know, wherever we can get in on it, we're going to get in on it because it is what has gone on through divorce in the lives of Children is wrecking their lives. It is literally, you know, we talk in the book about how there's three staples of a child, social emotional diet. Three things they need to be nourished on every single day if they are going to arrive at adulthood functional and ready to take on the world. And those three staples our mother's love, father's love and stability. Okay. If you're missing any one of those three things, kids are going to be emotionally malnourished, they're going to be at risk for all those social ills. They're not going to be able to function as well in life. What does divorce do? Takes away half of mom, half of dad and usually stability is totally gone right now. It's only instability as mom or dad re partner, remarry divorce again. Decouple again. Welcome. New half siblings. Welcome. New step slings, lose those siblings through another divorce. Dad moves to another state. Mom moves away. I mean, whatever it is like the stability is just gone for kids of divorce. How do we expect? Why do we expect society to function? Why do we expect to have thriving kids when we are starving our kids and divorce is um is a huge reason why our kids are emotionally malnourished today. I couldn't say it better. And one of the things I see so much is like when you're living a life of vice, you know, bad habits and you have this trauma in your life that hasn't been resolved, it hasn't been healed, hasn't been dealt with. You're going to go on and build broken relationships, dysfunctional relationships, you're gonna have a broken marriage, your family is not going to function in a healthy way. And so often what we've seen and you see these two KT is you're just going to repeat that cycle and that will happen for generations. And so we need to put an end to it. But on the flip side, this is where I think there's so much hope I want to end on this note. Looking at someone like yourself to, if you can build those good habits in your life, if you can heal that trauma, get the professional help that you need, continue to grow in little ways every day, then you're gonna be this healthy, whole person, you're going to go on and build strong relationships, good marriages and you know, healthy families. And that's what I believe is going to transform our culture. But we need both. We need the personal growth side of it. We need the activism, legal side. So I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing. I could never do it, but I'm happy to support you in that work. And however I can, I'm pleased to know that you, you have our support. So thank you so much. And I did want to give you a chance to tell us anything else about them before us, like about your mission and how people can get involved. Well, first, I will say I love this ministry. I'm so grateful you guys exist. I hope that anybody that's listening to this podcast, share with your friends who have gone through a divorce like they need to know they're not crazy. Like that's my biggest concern is that kids have divorced. They think everybody around me thinks that this is awesome. My parents are happy with their new partners or lovers or spouses. My life is wrecked but I just feel like nobody, everyone keeps saying, oh my gosh, you know, your dad's so lucky he found this woman or whatever it is and you are not crazy. You deserve to have a mom and dad who love each other and love you. You are made for that and obviously not obviously, you will experience loss and pain if you're not getting, even if the world doesn't support that you aren't crazy. You are the one that's right for feeling hurt and pain over this. And I will say, you know what you just talked about is repeating the cycle. We often say in my house and at church with our youth group, you become what you behold, whatever it is you're looking at, you will become like that, which is why so many Children of divorce go on to get divorced. So I love what you're doing with the mentors because you need to start beholding something else. You need to start looking at something else. Look and study the families in your world where the mom and dad cherish each other where they absolutely delight in their Children, where they overcome struggles together. Give yourself something new to behold, right? Behold what it is that you want to become and sometimes we can't behold the example that was handed down to a fire own parents. We need to find something else that we can behold so that we can become like that. Because what you've gone through is really painful but you are not doomed. You are absolutely not doomed to repeat what was done to you. You can become something really different from your parents. You can become the family that you wish that you had as a kid. It's not gonna happen by accident. You're gonna need people ahead of you showing you how to become that thing. So behold, beautiful examples of families, right? Hopefully, you've got some in your world. If not, I would really encourage you to go to church somewhere because That is the place where I see the family that are doing the hard work of staying together, um where ads are striving to protect and provide where moms are sacrificing their career sometimes. So they can be present with their kids when they're young, go there, they will probably love to have you even if they're a 15 year old, you know, just walk through the doors and let them love you. So behold what you want to become and there's good examples out there. Thank you for mentioning that. And again, I just want to give you a chance to say anything else you want to about them before us and how people can get involved and help you. Well, you should totally come to them before us dot com and subscribe and you can stay up on all of our advocacy work. But I'll also say that if you want to share your story, I personally bet everybody that shares their story on our website. But then I'm going to encourage you to write under a pseudonym so that you can be raw and honest. One of the big things we do with them before us is we center the stories of kids because otherwise the adults stories get centered or the narrative is centered and it's very hard to fight against adult narrative and pithy phrases like, oh, the kids will be fine or kids are resilient. The thing that does absolutely destroy those narratives is the real life stories of kids who have had to live through those split home situations and the pain and the struggle and very often lifelong harm that ensues. So if you choose to share your story at them before us, I will do my best to change the world with it. How can people buy the book too? I just wanted to make sure that they have that and how can they find you elsewhere online aside from all of our social media tags at the bottom of the website, we're on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Um The book is at Amazon. It's also a Christian books. If you don't want to Feed the Amazon Beast, we do have an audio book. I got to narrate it. They did make me audition, but they did end up giving me the job. That was really nice. So if you'd rather just listen to it, you can listen to it as well. Yeah, get, get the information into you. I think that it will be very validating for a lot of you guys out there. I think that it might give you words to describe how you're feeling. If you are somebody that is counseling kids, it's going to give you a pretty sharp perspective on what this is like for them. If you're a parent who's struggling right now, go into this choice with your eyes wide open, knowing the kind of cost that you will leverage on your child. If you go down this path, this conversation piqued your interest and you want to know more, definitely pick up Katie's book than before us to learn more about the research behind this topic. Really fascinating research that she put in the book when it comes to how divorce affects the Children. And you can just click on the link in the show notes to get that book. If you come from a divorce or broken family, how is your parents' divorce or your broken family affecting you today? It's trickier to answer that question than it might seem. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it, you're not alone, that's actually very common. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself, find the love, happiness and freedom that you long for avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is naming and diagnosing the wound. Help you do that. Take our free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com again, my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then you can view your results again. Go to my broken family dot com or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you're not alone, we're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.
