Considering Divorce? Why It's Not the Answer

3 minute read.

I hear people say they “fell out of love.”

Couples lament that it “didn’t work out.”

Some realized they were “only staying together for the kids.”

Most often, “we just weren’t happy anymore.”

How awful that must be. To be in a marriage that no longer brings you joy—to feel that the love you once had is no longer enough.

From where I’m standing, lifelong marriage looks like a heroic challenge—nothing short of a miracle.

I’m not exactly what you would call an expert in relationships, especially when it comes to marriage. I’m a newlywed twenty-seven-year-old with a rickety relationship history and not much to offer when it comes to marital advice.

On the other hand, if you are looking for help with using the word“literally” incorrectly, spending too much money on craft beer, or getting on your husband’s nerves, I’m your girl.

Regarding marital challenges, I can imagine what it must be like to not feel in love with your spouse anymore. How painful it must be to slowly become more distant, to feel as though the person you married is a stranger. How difficult it must be to love someone for a lifetime—someone who is inevitably broken and who has undoubtedly hurt you.

If you have made it this far in the great Odyssey that is lifelong commitment, I commend you, honestly. And there is one thing I would like to tell you (married couples); one thing I hope you know (and fear many don’t); one thing many of us seem to forget, or never learned in the first place; one thing that scares me from taking marriage too lightly or a Hollywood romance too seriously.

I say this not as someone with great insight or noteworthy experience, but as someone who has experienced the ramifications of a love that was lost, vows that were broken.

LOVE IS ENOUGH.

It may not always feel like it, but love is enough. It’s not what our culture tells us, but love is enough. You may have never been taught it, but love is enough. It may not be what you want to hear, but love is enough.

It’s enough because it’s a choice you make.

I know. How trite, how tired, how predictable of me to say that—not to mention a little “much” coming from a girl who has been married exactly fourteen months.

But I learned, I felt it, I saw it: what happens when couples treat their marriage as something less than permanent, an empty promise. I can say that it was devastating. I can assure you the effects are long-lasting. I can attest to the grief that comes when “love isn’t enough.”

But it is. Feelings aren’t enough, money isn’t enough, children aren’t enough, jobs aren’t enough, time isn’t enough . . . but love is.

The decision to love is the only thing that is enough. That is why marriage is a commitment. Because when nothing else is keeping you there, the decision to love—the vow you made—demands that you stay.

I can’t pretend to fully understand the difficulty of marriage. I’m sure that to some of you, this is borderline laughable coming from me. What do I know?

I just know what happens when you leave.

As much as divorce has been trivialized and rationalized beyond belief, I can tell you from experience: Your kids don’t just “want you to be happy”—we want our family. We aren’t “resilient”—although we will survive, because we have no other choice. Two homes are not better than one.

Nothing will be the same.

No one will be “better off.”

It can be tempting to see divorce as a cure-all, as the only answer, as the solution to our problems and the way to happiness. However, after the dust settles, research shows that most adults who divorce have lower levels of happiness and higher levels of stress than married couples.

I understand there are circumstances beyond your control. I know that marriage is unexpectedly difficult.

I also know that there are couples who do it. There are people who make it. Marriages that survive countless hardships, changes, and a lifetime of messiness. It is possible. And truly, it isn’t because they got lucky or because it was somehow easy for them. It was their decision; their steadfastness in the face of all the garbage life threw at them and in spite of the brokenness they saw in each other.

They chose to love and kept on choosing—there is never a time when you can’t choose love anymore.

I won’t pretend that I am remotely qualified to give you advice on these matters. But I do want to encourage you, to urge, that if you are struggling, if it has been difficult (maybe for a while) . . . you don’t give up.

Do one thing today to love your spouse: write them a letter, make a mental list of what you admire about them, take a minute to recall the day you met . . . just one thing.

Love doesn’t run out on us, and divorce is rarely the answer. Choose love. Choose your marriage. Choose your spouse, just like you did that day of celebration in front of your friends and family.

There are a plethora of people out there who are better suited than me to tell you how to make your marriage work. I can’t. I can only tell you that love is enough.

And I can ask of you what I asked of my own parents at the age of twelve.

Stay.

My Saving Grace: Marriage Advice after Twenty Years from a Child of Divorce

4 minute read

This is a guest post by Sandra Howlett, she has given us permission to share her work on the blog.

For most of my life as an adult child of divorce, I could never imagine being married. I was terrified of divorce and always wanted to know why marriages didn’t last. But also, deep down, I didn’t think I was the marrying type. Those feelings were not unique to me but something many children of divorce feel because of our wounds. I have now been married 20 years and if it was possible for us, two very broken people, it’s possible for you.

In the Catholic faith, we talk a lot about vocations, the primary way you live your life in connection to others, whether it be as a single person, married, or in religious life. Marriage is a vocation and a sacrament in the church and leads to holiness by nurturing the virtues of love, patience, selflessness, perseverance, and forgiveness. Treating marriage as a vocation was my saving grace.

Don’t Settle for a Mediocre Marriage

My fear of divorce helped early on but later became an obstacle to having a better marriage. When I was freed from those fears by contemplating what divorce might look like and choosing to stay married, I was able to live my marriage more intentionally, setting the bar higher than simply not getting divorced. 

Speak the Truth With Love

Like many children of divorce, I had a hard time with conflict. When a Catholic friend told me our job as married couples is to bring our spouses to holiness it struck a chord with me. I summoned the courage to speak the truth with love, and for the first time felt my husband really heard me without getting defensive or casting blame. It was hard to feel that love in the middle of conflict. It required faith and trust in God, faith and trust in my husband, forgiveness for past behaviors, hopefulness, and the belief that our troubled marriage could be saved.

Don’t Let Resentments Build Up

The little resentments we allow to build up over time kill marriages faster than fighting. Even though we fear conflict and rejection which can make us avoid fights or difficult discussions, suppressing our feelings is even more damaging and dishonest. Resentments build up when we don’t express our needs or truly forgive our spouses.

Resentment Kills Sex

Sometimes we want to forgive our spouse (or think we have) but our hearts tell us otherwise. Whatever the root of resentment—pride, power, fear of rejection—it’s important to identify it. One of the ways to measure it is by your willingness and desire for intimacy. Sex is an important part of the marriage bond and is very difficult to do if you are harboring resentment. That’s not to say that all sex issues in marriage are due to resentment. There are very real differences in men and women’s sexual desires that couples have to navigate which takes meeting each other in the middle and respecting each other’s sexuality.

Forgiveness

Learning how to fully forgive your spouse is a virtue that is not only important to the health of your marriage but will make you a better person. When I had trouble with this, I read multiple books on forgiveness. One of them was Seventy Times Seven by Johann Arnold, in which he wrote, “Nothing withers the soul more than an unforgiving spirit—the poisonous product of pain and pride that craves revenge under the guise of justice.” We need to forgive our spouses on a daily basis, multiple times a day for the little hurts in order to have a healthy marriage and to be at peace with ourselves.

Eliminate Anger 

Many children of divorce have anger problems whether they are aware of them or not. Everyone knew me to be a cheerful, fun-loving, and happy person. But when I was struggling in my marriage, I started to realize the depth of my anger, some of it from unresolved conflicts in our relationship and some from my parents’ divorce. Only I knew how dark my thoughts were. Watch for excessive anger in your life and in your marriage by being mindful of your thoughts and separating your past hurts from the current situation. Though anger sometimes makes us feel powerful and righteous, it is ultimately destructive in our lives and marriages, and usually hurts us more than the person we are angry at.

Never Count the Cost of Love

True love the way Christ loves is radical, never counting the cost or expecting anything in return. Our society is always concerned with not appearing foolish, and asking “what’s in it for me?” Love doesn’t operate that way. You must be a fool in love, loving when it seems hopeless, loving beyond all human reason, loving the way God loves. Never give up on love.

Give Your Spouse the Benefit of the Doubt

When there is ongoing conflict in our relationships, we tend to view every offensive behavior as a willful attack against us. Since we can’t fully know people’s motives or thoughts, we must give them the benefit of the doubt. Assume they have the best intentions unless proven otherwise. 

Focus on the Good

It’s natural and easy to focus on what we don’t like about our spouses but takes discipline to focus on the good. Focusing on the bad can lead to a loss of love, a victim mentality, and resentment. Give thanks daily for all the good in your spouse and your marriage, even finding the good in their less desirable traits. Marriage leads us to holiness, so when you are experiencing hard times in your marriage, thank God for the opportunity he is providing you to grow in virtue.

Be More Concerned with Holiness than Happiness

Our society places a lot of emphasis on personal happiness, and that carries over into our marriages. Marriage is the hardest thing I’ve ever done. It can be joyful, satisfying, and rewarding—and also extremely frustrating. We certainly should have moments of happiness in our marriages, but happiness is overrated and is based on emotions that are ever-changing. Pursue holiness and true love seeking the good of the other, over happiness, and be assured that some of our greatest joys are born from our deepest grief.

God Will Never Leave or Forsake You

2 minute read

This story was written by an anonymous contributor at 15 years old. Her parents divorced when she was 8 years old. She gave permission for his story to be shared.

HER STORY

I don’t really know an exact answer; as a child, I have always tried to figure this out. When my parents did live together I could tell as a child it wasn’t a healthy marriage. They would always argue though I feel as I get older my memory of when they were married is sketchy and hard to recall.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

It’s hard to figure out how/what I am feeling. When they were married I wanted them to separate because their marriage wasn’t healthy and they would always be arguing. They never communicated well and would always argue. My mom took me to church growing up and still does and I would blame her for not having a Godly dad.

HOW HER PARENTS' DIVORCE HAS IMPACTED HER

Yes, I believe having the family I do has impacted me and shaped me into who I am today. My parents’ divorce doesn’t define me but it has shaped me into who I am today.

HOW TO HELP YOUNG PEOPLE FROM DIVORCED OR SEPARATED FAMILIES

Seek after God; know that God will never leave or forsake you. Find someone you trust to talk to about how you are feeling. Don’t be scared to talk to someone. It’s healthy to talk to someone about how you feel. Holding in your emotions and feelings is not healthy.

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#062: The Best of 2021: Restored Podcast Highlights

In this episode, you'll hear 7 short clips from the podcast in 2021.

This episode, and the podcast as a whole, will help you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents’ divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and thrive.

If you’re new to the podcast, this is the perfect way to sample our content and learn how it will help you. If you’re a veteran listener, this is the perfect episode to share with someone you know who needs to hear it.

Thanks for listening! We do it for you.

Book a Restored talk

Featured Episodes

#039: The Anatomy of a Wound & How to Heal | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD

#037: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

#058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns

#056: How Virtue Results in Happiness & Freedom | Dr. Andrew Swafford

#048: Fear Became Reality: I Am Just Like My Father | Bart Schuchts

#054: How to Stop Damaging Yourself with Your Words | Chris Stefanick

#044: Practical Tips for Becoming a Great Parent | Mike & Alicia Hernon

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation. Our broken marriage. So can Phil ho again, I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 62 and as a way to reflect on the gear, my team, and I wanted to share some of the best moments on the restored podcast.

So you're about to hear seven short clips from episodes published last year. If you're new to the podcast, this is the perfect way to sample our content, to see how we can help you. And if you're a veteran listener, I wanna just thank you. Thank you for listening for so long. I hope this has been so.

Helpful useful. And most importantly, practical for you. And I wanted to say to you, this is a perfect episode to share with someone that you know, who really needs to hear this content. The clips are not necessarily in a particular order when we were choosing which clips include. I honestly wanted to choose all of the episodes from last year because they're all really good, but we obviously had to narrow it down.

So we chose seven clips and basically we based it on popularity feedback from you guys and some episodes that just stood. To us, by the way, if after hearing the clip, you wanna listen to a particular episode in its entirety, but maybe you forgot the episode number. Just go to the show notes, to find it@restorministry.com slash 62.

I'll remind you of that link at the end. Our first episode is episode 39, the anatomy of a wound, and how to heal with Dr. Bob shoot. Now, Dr. Baba says psychologist, he's an author, and he spent really his professional life helping people to heal their wounds in this clip. He explains really the anatomy of a wound, how a.

Works.

I wanna switch gears. I wanna talk about the anatomy of a wound. You write about this, uh, in your book, be healed. You write that, you know, there's various pieces and parts to wound, and I think it's really helpful if we wanna heal to understand that. And so if you would please teach us about that, break that down for us.

Yeah. And, and let me put it in the relation to the, to the divorce, because it'll become much more alive in this way, but. And, and be healed and, and other material. I talk about three circles. There's like three levels of the heart or three layers of the heart. And on the inside is just the pain from the wound.

So it's, it's trauma. And as we're finding more and more about trauma, trauma stays in your body until it's released and it stays in your mind and it affects the way your brain's organized and it affects the way every cell of your body. And. You know, it, it affects our physical, emotional, spiritual health.

And typically trauma is too much for us to bear in the moment. That's why it takes us a while to work through trauma. But it's not that the trauma's in the past, it's, it's the trauma remains with us until it's released. And so it's released. Through the experience of, of releasing the pain or the anger or the rage or the powerlessness or the fear or whatever manifestation that has.

But, but our bodies and our minds and our souls pulled on to trauma. One of the ways we do that is through our beliefs. And that's the next band. If you will, the next circle in its the beliefs are of two, two types. It's the things that we believe about ourselves, which affect our identity. The way we see ourselves, that's the beliefs we have about other people and about God and about life, which are we call judgements.

You know, they, they're the ways that filter our perception of reality, both about ourselves and about other people. And so in, you know, in the case of, you know, my, my experience of a trauma of abandonment of my dad, And for you two, and there's a rejection in it. Those are different wounds. There's a powerlessness there's fear.

So what we call the seven deadly wounds, all have beliefs associated with them. And so, you know, one of the beliefs and these aren't just beliefs as at an intellectual level, there's deep, deeply held beliefs of the heart, which is I'm alone. I'm not loved. I can't trust anybody. And there's a hopelessness that things aren't gonna get any better.

All those get, if you will lodged into the heart at a deep level, even if our mind knows a different truth or understanding knows a different truth, those, those things kind of hold. We hold onto them and they hold onto us and we actually hold onto them. As a way of protecting against the trauma, believe it or not, even though they keep the trauma in place and keep us in the trauma.

They're, they're in some ways a barrier to that trauma. Hm. And then the judgements we have to other people, you know, it's like the judgements that I made towards my dad or about marriage are about God or about the church or about women, you know, or about drinking, you know, all those things that, that form perceptions that then play themselves out.

When you get involved in relationships. You know, a lot of those judgements have unforgiveness related to them. Uh, and so we work through a process of forgiveness, but also of really recognizing and releasing the judgements because they filter everything. They're like putting on glasses that color, everything that you see.

And then the final outside circle is what we call inner vows or resolutions of the will of ways we're gonna protect ourselves. So one of mine was, I will never divorce. Like my parents, because I'll never want to hurt my children. Like I was hurt and we were hurt or I'll never want to hurt my wife. Like my dad hurt my mother.

And you say, well, that's a really good vow, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it isn't, it was good when I made it in marriage with the holy spirit. And that's really what I promise and I'm gonna love my wife for better or for worse and sickness and in health. And that vow actually kept us together. But this inner vow wasn't even C.

It was made out of fear and judgment. And in that it, it creates this self-protection that actually almost brought me into a place that was a very thing that I feared. And it's, it's hard to describe that, but it's, it's like I was so in fear of hurting my wife and hurting my children, that I didn't deal with the pain, or even with the conflicts that came up, you know, I was afraid of being afraid of rejecting or afraid.

Being alone or, and so those vows actually led me to insulate and protect and to control, uh, because that's what we do out of fear is we tend to control things rather than trust mm-hmm . And so it creates this whole vicious cycle of destruction that you're not even aware of until you're face to face with it.

And that that really began my deeper healing process. 10 years into my marriage, 10 to 12 years into my marriage.

The key to healing is truly understanding your wounds, truly understanding your brokenness. And you can think of a doctor who can only treat a disease once he diagnoses that disease, once he understands it. And the same is true for emotional. Wounds, you can't heal without first diagnosing without first understanding your brokenness.

And so if you want more check out that episode, that was our most popular episode of the year with Dr. Bob Schutz again, though was episode 39. Next is episode 37. Trauma what it is and how it damages you with Margaret Vasquez. Margaret is a trauma therapist she's been in practice for over 15 years, truly an expert on trauma.

And she's helped so many people heal from trauma, especially people who thought. Healing wasn't even possible, maybe that's to you right now. And so I especially invite you to listen to this clip and then hopefully listen to the full episode with Margaret in this clip we discussed what trauma is and how it affects you.

I wanna start with a, a really basic question. What is trauma? What's the definition of trauma. the simplest definition of trauma that I like to use is any event that overwhelms a person's normal ability to cope. And so kind of, you can kind of imagine, like, in that definition itself kind of contains the idea that that varies from person to person, right.

Because what overwhelms one person might not overwhelm another and that kind of thing. So it's a real, it's real particular to the person. So I kind of like that, that like, understanding that because. If we understand that, then we don't compare and go, oh, well, this didn't bother that person, but it really bothers me.

And so what's wrong with me, you know? So it, it really all has to do with our perspective in the situation and our perception of it, and really our personal experience of it as to if we're traumatized by. By an event or not. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. So if you would, what's an example, I guess, of a traumatic event that you typically see.

I know, based on what you said, it varies for people, but what's something that's kind of a typical traumatic event. And I know some people talk about trauma in terms of like a big tea trauma versus a little tea trauma. What would some examples be to help people listening right now who may not have a handle on that?

Yeah, sure. Um, so one of, so kinda some of the obvious ones would be, um, abusive, any kind. You know, physical, emotional, spiritual, sexual, verbal, natural disaster or accidents can be traumatic as well. It, it, it's so funny because so often people say, well, couldn't it have been worse? You know what? I went through, like, couldn't have been worse and I'll say, well, it could always have been worse or we wouldn't be having this meeting.

Right. Mm-hmm cause we're still alive. You know? So I think it's, I think it's more, it makes more sense to compare it to what we're made for. Instead of could have been worse because if something bothered us, that's enough reason. You know, if it was traumatizing to us, if it overwhelmed my, my whoever's personal ability to cope, then that, and of itself is reason enough for it to be trauma.

I often say like in trainings, I call it trauma. When I'm with my brothers, we call it childhood, you know, so, and I guess it's just kind of make that distinction because people can tend to, to minimize and kind of beat themselves up for, for things bothering. Right. And kind of say, I should have been worth thick skinned or tougher, or I'm being wimpy or self pity or, you know, or whatever that these things are getting to me.

And it's really not a matter of that. So some of the things that people typically think of as trauma are like combat or violent crimes, but it, it can really run the gamut. One of the. Biggest ones that I work with with people is biggest. Meaning one of the ones that that's the most effect most affects people is bullying.

And, and that's really sad cuz that's something that's kind of rampant today. Definitely. Wow. And it's um, I, I think you were a spot on in saying that a lot of people think of trauma as just this huge event in my life. Like you said, a big natural disaster, something very dramatic that happened like going to war, you know, something like that, but it.

A great point that it can be something that maybe is less dramatic. It can be something. Uh, a lot of people may write off as not being very important or being something that they should be able to have a handle on. Yeah. Well, you know, I kind of, I kind of got scolded in this back in the early days of practice and I was working with a young veteran and he had been through a lot of verbal abuse from.

His father. And he said to me, worse for him than hand to hand combat was verbal abuse from, from his dad when he was a little boy and kind of intuitively like just in my gut, that made sense to me. But I just, you know, I just asked him to say more about that. And he said, well, when I, when I went in the army, they gave me a gun and said, people are gonna be shooting at you.

Go defend yourself. That wasn't how it was when I was seven years old, little boy sitting at the breakfast table, eating my breakfast, you know, and my person who was supposed to be protecting me was just verbally decimating me, you know, mm-hmm. And while that kind of really put it in perspective, you know,

that episode is so eye-opening, there's so much more in it about trauma, about how to heal from it. I highly highly recommend it again. That's episode 30. Episode 58 is next forgiveness. The secret to healing and freedom with father John Burns. And we all know that forgiveness is not easy, but is it worth it?

Father John Burns. Who's an expert on healing through forgiveness shares. Why forgiveness is good for you and why unforgiveness is bad for you. And this is not strictly a religious. Conversation, but rather a human one. And so listen with an open mind, especially if you don't believe in God,

unforgiveness is classically defined as a form of hatred. It, it falls under the category of hatred and, and hatred never leads to anything. Good. Hatred is a vice and it's destructive. It's consumptive. So. Even though we may not immediately think of the places where we have unforgiveness as places of hate.

Unforgiveness is a type of hatred. It's where we're, we're throttling our enemy and demanding repayment. And again, especially sometimes an exorbitant repayment or a type of repayment that can't be had. So it's a kind of a futile posture in which we're very often stuck. I think it was Corey 10. Boom, who said to forgive is to, to let a prisoner free and to discover that the prisoner's.

So, so it's liberating because we discover we're clenched up toward our enemies and self-defense posture, survival mechanism, mode, and forgiveness is like a letting go of that, that posture of, of tension and, and a bound up heart putting down the weapons, you know, like not being just like on guard for the next encounter so we can go to battle.

And that all leads us to a certain. Lightness of heart at ease of breathing. I mean like a, a lot of the people I've walked with in, in forgiveness will talk about being able to breathe again after they've forgiven and this living under a constriction prior to that, that they didn't even know about. So it's just liberating aside from increasing our excellence and making our, our lives more like Christ's life, because he's perfectly merciful.

It also frees us up from all kinds of bondage, emotional bondage that has, as you named even a neurological impact. The best way to think about healing is always integration or communion or union and wounding sin, uh, as division separation, fragmentation, our minds even are stories they're fragmented by these painful places is where we shut down or black things out or tried to skip over.

Healing reintegrates or reifies, reifies the, the, the narrative, our own story. Reifies our life into God's life. Reintegrates us into God. Reintegrates our own hearts ends the, the, the war within us thinking, you know, like St. Paul says, like, I. I do the things I do not want to do. And I do not do the things I want to do.

Healing just makes it easier to do the good things and avoid the evil things. And when we notice the other going on it's cuz there's some sin, not only our own, but that which has been inflicted upon us. So forgiveness is just this. I would argue essential and central pathway out of the, the death trap of our wounds.

We, we default to living there, but, but when we discover there's a way out, not only is it hopeful, but it's also totally liberating. And so it's gonna end the hatred. It's gonna end the binding force on our hearts. It's also gonna end all kinds of neurological complexity and physiological complexity.

That episode is. Notch. And if there's someone in your life that you need to forgive, give that a listen for most of us who come from broken families, there's so much hurt. There's so much need for forgiveness. And so if you want grab a pen and paper, open up your notes app and take some notes. There's so much to learn from father John, as he walks through the steps to forgive someone in that episode.

Again, that's episode 58. On deck is episode 56, how virtue results and happiness and freedom with Dr. Andrew Swafford virtue is a habitual disposition to do the good that's the definition that the Greeks use. And it looks like good habits typically, but there's much more than just that it truly does lead to happiness and to freedom, which Dr.

SWER touches on so much more. In this clip,

what exactly are do we mean when we say virtue? What is virtue ? Well, I I'll tell you what, where it really struck me as, as an athlete. And when I had my, my conversion kind of really came to a head in a Christian moral life class with DRS. And I walked in thinking it's about a bunch of rules and the Bible says this church is this can't do that.

And I walked in, I couldn't have been more wrong. It was about freedom, friendship, happys. Virtue. All of a sudden I could see, gosh, this is why you're not happy because you, my friend are made for more. So one of the things that's really deep in the, in the, the classical tradition, uh, in likeso Plato, but, but is just absorbed and enhanced by the Christian tradition is really to see it as an athletic metaphor.

Right? I mean, like any player can hit a lucky shot, but the good player is consistent. Is reliable, can do it on command and, and takes joy in doing it with greater and greater excellence. That's what virtue really is all about. It's not just like on the outside. What do I do? It's what kind of a person, a man role am I becoming?

And the great beauty of this when you really step in is. In each and every action, the choice really is not simply what do I do right here right now? It's who do I want to be? Because I'm actually modifying my very self, just like a picture. Like I joke with my students. I'm like, look so often we wanna say, Hey, I'm a good guy, deep down.

I mean, deep down. I'm a good guy. Despite what I did last weekend, I'm a good guy. It's like, Hey bro. It's like saying I'm a good pitcher. Deep down. I just never throw strikes. it's like, it doesn't work like that because each pitch you throw with poor mechanics makes it more likely you'll throw with poor mechanic.

The next time. And so it's so easy for so many of us to say, Hey, I'm gonna live it up now. And I will get real about life in five years. And in light of virtue, it's like, no, no, no, who, what you're doing now is directly related to you'll be in five years because you are on a journey of becoming you're becoming a certain kind of person.

And so at virtue, does it becomes a, you know, it's, there's different etymology. I mean, veer and Latin means a Manliness or a power, like virtue gives you the ability. To do the good to do it promptly, to do it even effortlessly and to do it with joy. In other words, the moral life is not just, let's always do the hard thing.

It's no become the kind of people who can do the right thing. With ease with joy promptly on demand and thereby attained the freedom to be who you really wanna be. We all wanna be the hero when it counts, but the only way you get there is by being a champion in the little things. And you think about movies like gladiator, right?

So remember when he, you know, he's captured and think about the difference to him as a seasoned soldier. Versus others who have never seen combat. And does that one scene with a guy's like tinkling nose lake. And that probably would be me in all honesty, but, but that's what virtue does. Me too. It makes you a seasoned, moral and spiritual athlete.

So you've been there. You've been tested, you have a pattern of overcoming these things. And so when the big test comes like. You're ready. Whereas you're not just a lucky player who, oops. He hits a lucky shot. Like, no, no, you're you you're Michael Jordan. You you're the one who's who wants the ball in that clutch moment because you've honed in on the skills to play the game of life with excellence.

It's about the art of living and living well. I love that. And I was just watching gladiator last night. That's hilarious. As soon as you, as soon as you were saying that I was like gladiator. Cause yeah, Maximus had spent years and years developing his skills as a warrior. And uh, it's not something that happens overnight.

And I think that's a good reminder. One of my teachers at Franciscan, I went to Franciscan university. One of my teachers, Dr. Um, Ashe. He would always talk about ease, promptness and join. I love that framework cuz you basically to everyone listening. You know, that you've acquired a virtue integrated into your character when you can do it with ease, prominence, and joy.

Right. And so really helpful to remember. Totally. I aerosols got a great line at the beginning of his ethics, where he says, um, the it's really fascinating. The pleasure or pain accompany in an action is an index of my. It's not that the pleasure pain is an index of the action being good or evil. It's not that, but like if I'm especially pained by doing a virtuous action, if it really hurts, that's a sign that I have not yet mastered that virtue.

It's sort of like, I mean, you know, for me, this is pretty smoking fast. I've done it a couple times around a six minute mile, but yeah. And let's say I do that. I throw up everywhere. Right. And it's been a long time since I've done that, but let's say I train for a series of months and then around the same mile, same pace.

It won't be as painful. When I'm in better shape, that's what the virtuous, life's all about.

Dr. Swafford is the man such good episode. I learned so much from him. And if you wanna know more, listen to episode 56 onto the next episode, which is episode 48, fear became reality. I'm just like my father. Bart shoots and Bart shoots is the brother of Dr. Bob shoots, who you heard at the beginning of the episode.

And his story is just amazing. He was at rock bottom. So. So alone and then his life radically changed. And you'll hear a little bit about that in this clip.

After, after a few relationships ended, I, I came to the point of going love doesn't exist. You know, love doesn't exist. And so I just lived for temple pleasure. Now I just walked away from everything I believed and valued and, and just gave up. I was so depressed and so discouraged. So disillusioned, I just gave up on love and it was in that season and I would just feel guilty and I was alone in my room and full of shame and, and self hatred.

All this stuff. And I was like, I gotta change. And you know, I just didn't know how, honestly, I didn't know how until my senior year is like everything caught up to me and then it was like, oh gosh, okay. How do I change? You know, that, that, that, that was that work for me, you know? And I, I think for every one of us to answer your question, I just think.

We each, we each have our own journeys, you know, and the biggest thing I would say is never give up, never give up because, because there's gonna be answers, there are answers and, and you just have to keep persevering. And I knew that. And so I just kept going, you know, I, I, I, I entertained taking my life so many times and I was like, no, I'm not a quitter.

I'm not gonna do that. I'm never gonna quit. I'm gonna persevere. And, you know, little did I know, you know, that I would, I would make my way through it, but I, but I. Amazing. It's hard to, to know that in the moment. Right. Cause everything can just feel hopeless, but you're in a much better spot now. So yeah. I am curious what, what changed?

Like what happened? How did you eventually find healing? It sounds like it was a long journey, but, but what changed? Yeah. Yeah, it was, you know, and you know, through my four, actually five years of college, I, uh, I tried everything, honestly. I tried. I mean, I got into positive mental attitude stuff and you know, and I'd put on this good, positive mental attitude.

And it worked, you know, I, I was able to succeed. I would, uh, go to, you know, psychology. I tried, I tried everything I could think of, you know, all relatively good things. I, I went to church a few times, you know, I, I, I would go and give it a shot and go to church. And that would last me about a week or a month, you know, and then I would go right back.

To my vomit, you know, by my vomit is, you know, after my freshman year, when I just gave up on love, it was just, it was just partying, womanizing, you know, just, just living, just totally lost from who I really was. And just, just totally just, I mean, a good guy externally, but just, just totally lost. So it was.

Senior year, you know, and I remember my dream was to play in the NFL. And so in the football field, I had some successes, ups and downs. Now it's my senior year and I'm starting on that team that I said eventually finished 11 and one number two in the country. And I'm on track for my dream. And I'm like, this is great.

And, uh, got a bunch of friends and success and you know, the team's great, everything looks wonderful. First play of our second game. I got injured and I missed four games. And in that season, I was confronted with my life and it had happened several times over the five years of my college journey, but this one just feels like the last straw.

And, um, I actually, I met this girl. And, uh, we're just talking at a, at a bar and, um, she we're hanging out for about 45 minutes, you know, or drinking and hanging out. And I had intentions, you know, and here we were, and, and she, uh, looks at me and she says, I hate you. I'm like, what, whoa, what are you talking about?

I mean, we just met, you know, and she says, not only do I hate you, my whole sorority hates. I was like, whoa, what do you mean? I mean, your sorority knows me. Yes. And then she mentions three girls. It is painful even to recall. I mean, this is probably 37 years ago, you know, and I it's still painful. And she says, you know, she mentions three girls.

She says, because of you, each one of them tried to take their own lives and went, oh my God, you're kidding me. And I thought to myself, whoa, this isn't a game, man. And then what hit me? What hit me in that? was, oh my gosh. I'm just like my father, you know, I made that vow. I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother.

And I'm worse. And my self hatred man was just like, whew, I just wanted to crawl under a rock and die. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. I just hated myself. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm a real jerk. And uh, and then this girl says to me, beautiful girl. She says to me, besides I'm a Virgin, I was like, what?

Tell me about this. I was intrigued. I was like, whoa. And I remembered back to when I was 18 years old. When I was in high school, I said to my buddies, when I get married, I wanna be a Virgin. And they, of course, you know, said that's a wonderful idea. No, they laughed at me. They called me names. Uh, I mean, gosh, I will never say that again.

Within a month of that, I had lost my virginity and then it, it, my story of the next six years, you know, uh, it caught up to me now and this girl says, I'm a Virgin. I'm like, oh my gosh. Wow. Is it possible? Like, is that even possible? This girl obviously chose this, you know, like, is this even possible? And it just, it opened my eyes to like, hope.

Like maybe my life could be different. Like maybe I can change. Maybe I really can change. Maybe I can marry someone. Maybe I can have a good marriage. Maybe I don't have to be like my father. Maybe, maybe things can be different. And, and that began a process.

One of the things I learned from Bart. No matter how bad things get, no matter how hopeless life feels, never give up, never give up. You're never out of the fight. And his story really proves that there is always hope, especially when things feel hopeless. If you wanna hear the rest of his story, listen to episode 40.

Episode 54 is next. How to stop damaging yourself with your words with Chris. And Chris is a very popular speaker and author. And in this clip, he talks about how the words we say to ourselves have a much bigger impact than you might think.

I think this is such a relevant topic for people, especially who come from broken families. And in the book you say that there's a war of words happening in your mind. The outcome of that war. Determines your destiny. That's a bold statement. What do you mean by that? Uh, the, uh, the devil's real victory in our life.

We, we think it's maybe a sin we committed or some, uh, wound we're suffering from, or, or, or something hard we've been through. No, I, I, the real victory is when we experience a, a, a difficulty or commit a sin and then label our. Based on that, because then we continue to live out of that identity for the rest of our lives.

You know, the, the way we speak to ourselves and the way we talk to ourselves and label ourselves shapes how we feel, which shapes how we act, which shapes how our entire life pans out. So really the, so many of the, the spiritual battles we face. So many of the personal battles with getting to the next level.

In relationships in career in happiness. So many of it comes back to when you dig deep enough, how you see. How you talk to yourself, it's that war, a fundamental war of words that determines really the outcome of your life. Mm-hmm uh, and, and a brother. We, we, we really, we really can't get it wrong. We can't keep getting it wrong, you know, and I'm so tired of seeing people get it wrong.

And you could tell there's times where I'm getting it. When people are walking through life, looking like they got the crap beat out of them when they look tired and heavy it's so often because we're beating ourselves up on the inside. I, I think this seems simple on the surface, Chris, but once you start talking about it and think about it, I think it's a little trickier than it seems because.

So often I think the lies that we tell ourselves become so second nature, they're just subconscious they're there. And so unless you really take time to go through your, I am book or the course or something similar where you're doing some deep reflection on this, it can just pass over your head. I know for myself, one of the things that I catch myself doing often just on a subconscious level again, It's calling myself an idiot.

Like, are you idiot? You know, I do. I make a mistake. I do something wrong. You're you idiot, you idiot. So I think there's a real need to dive into this. It can't just be something that oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. I shouldn't be mean to myself. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's simple, but simple is not easy.

Right. In fact, it's very difficult to boil things down to the simple again and much of our lives. We're trying to get back to the simple within marriage. We're crying out loud. Oh, Nothing could look simpler. I love this person. She loves me. I wanna give my life to her. She wants to give her life to me.

the amazing thing. Is it actually, is that simple? But it's not easy to keep it, that, that simple and to work through all the crap that comes in the way of keeping it, that simple, that wants to destroy that, that, that beauty, that pure crystal line beauty , but that's, that's the, uh, the same journey as the, I am.

You know, there's, there is a simplicity that I, I want to introduce people to, because most people, they, they don't win this battle cuz they don't even know that they're in it. They don't show up for it. We're we're passive recipients of the things that go on in our heads.

On the surface. It might seem like the way that you see yourself, the way that you talk to yourself really isn't that big of a deal. But like Chris said, it literally dictates how your life. We'll turn out. If you wanna hear more from that episode, just listen to episode 50. Our final episode is episode 44 practical tips for becoming a great parent with Mike and Alicia.

Heran. If you wanna become a mom or a dad, one day, you need to know about Mike and Alicia Heran they're parents and parenting experts, and they give really great guidance on how to become a great mom. Or dad. And you're gonna hear a sample of that in this clip.

Uh, yeah, I guess the first thing is like, as a new parent, if you could go back in time to yourself as a new parent, uh, and give some advice, uh, yeah. What are a couple of things that you'd say the main points and I'm sure this might echo some of the things you said before before the first, the first thing that comes to mind is chill.

Uh, yeah, we're we're, as, as parents, we, we have to recognize we're playing a long game. It's it's not a sprint. It really is a long race and that there are gonna be cycles and seasons, uh, you know, early on you may get no sleep with a newborn, you know, and, and, and infant, uh, child, uh, or there's gonna be times when you have maybe one or two little kids that are just draining you and you're in the survival.

Mm-hmm they're seasons of life. And, um, and we need to have a longer perspective this isn't. You're not gonna stay in that zone forever. Um, Which is, is good and bad, right? Meaning sometimes you'll get through it quickly, but also, um, there are good moments which, you know, just to really appreciate and, and soak up those moments because, you know, we have two, uh, married children now and, um, you know, three others who are essentially out, uh, out of the house.

They do kids do grow up so fast. So, so one don't get stressed. I know it doesn't feel like it, but they do but, and, and I never believed anybody, uh, who told me that. No, um, but I would, I would say that, that, that don't sweat, the small stuff have a bigger, longer term perspective. Um, and really kind of embrace, uh, each of those moments cuz they, you, for that child, you only have, you know, you have a limited amount of time and it's, and it's a gift.

Right. Uh, and to really embrace that, I, I felt like I kind of felt like I was looking for the right answer to everything. Yeah. Like I wanted to just do it. Right. I wanted to find to be the perfect area. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to find like that perfect method. And I think a lot of people do that today.

Studies showed this. So this is what I should do. But the problem is that you can find studies that absolutely contradict each other about the way that you should raise an infant, as far as like sleep schedules and feeding, and you know, how you respond to them. And you can find studies that are all over the place.

But what you really need to do is just work with unity, with your spouse on what is the best for you as a couple, what is the best thing for your family? And don't worry, don't worry. doing it perfectly. It's okay. Like you were saying before, it's okay to make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes. You're gonna try something to get them to go to sleep and it's not gonna work.

And that's okay. That's totally fine. You can try something else or maybe you just need to try what you were doing a little bit longer. And so I feel like for me, like what I would tell myself, you know, if I was talking to myself as a new. so don't worry about getting it all right. And also just enjoy your children more.

That's part of the great thing about being a grandparent now is that you just enjoy our grandchildren and I have to say that even our younger children, um, like numbers eight, nine, and 10 . I feel like we still. Take more time to just enjoy them and them just play games, games, hang out and just like laugh at them and just realize that, you know what I mean?

Like just kind of relax a little bit and not worry about, well, I have to hurry up and teach them all these things, because this is the important point to teach this blah, blah. You know, it's okay. It's okay. Like it is it, your childhood does go fast, but it's also, you have time to teach them things little by little and a lot of things, times you are modeling.

You're modeling for them, the way that you live your life is more important than anything you say, or any discipline plan that you have or anything like that, loving them and modeling God's love for them. Honestly, I really do think is the most important thing. I think that's more important. Then being really strict and firm on certain rules or having the perfect rules of the perfect system.

Sorry, one, one thing that, that I, as long as you don't contradict me, yes. You, everything you said was perfect. There you go. Um, so if you learn this after 27 years, it's about priorities man battles wisely. Uh, no. So, so, but I, I think I, I Don. I think now I appreciate it more than I did back then. The importance of our marriage.

Yeah. Um, a as much as I loved my wife and we got, well, I think I took things for granted, meaning we, we were good. We were both good people. We were trying to deal with our own stuff. And we were collaborating in this great work of raising these kids. And I would probably look back and say, get a better habit of date nights.

Yeah. On a regular for sure. Uh, going out together. Um, I think that we early on, we were very good about that and then kids just make it more difficult, but I think they make everything more difficult, but I think we, I, I gave up or settled too quickly and then I accepted jobs. Um, that had me traveling a lot for work and I didn't compensate, you know, by saying, okay, now that I'm physically not home, how am I gonna maintain my emotional intimacy, uh, with my wife when we're physically not present?

Um, I, I think that looking back I've, you know, that would be, you know, some of the things that I, I think is strong, We're also seeing the fruit, you know, again, I think we have a great marriage, but it's like not taking any of that for granted and, and really developing early on good habits of yeah. Date nights and communication and so forth because we're seeing some, um, couples now come to us, struggling with even their own kids who now have left.

The faith are not following in their values. And one of the things that, that I, it looked a common theme, a common theme. Was, they had some major challenges in their marriages. And I look at that and I think that has a bigger influence than we may realize. Yeah. Uh, on our kids on like sleeping in separate bedrooms, you know, for years and years, that's, that's gonna affect your children, you know, and that's gonna affect the way that they see marriage and that they.

God and the faith and, and all of that. So, and, and anyway, it's important to work on your marriage and I'm sorry, I know you, I'm gonna just throw this out, just cuz I've seen a couple of people for adult children of divorce who, because they don't wanna repeat. What happened to them as a child, they often pour themselves out into their kids and they pour themselves into forming and loving their children that they actually unintentionally neglect their neglect, their marriage.

Yeah. And, um, and, and by doing that, you're actually. Undercutting the way that you're loving your kids and forming your kids, cuz the, the, um, the number one thing is if you wanna be a great parent, you need to be an even more amazing spouse. And I, I think we sometimes get things disordered. Um, in our parenting,

one of the struggles for those of us who come from broken families is that we believe that we maybe can't become a great mom or a great dad, and I get it. I've been there, but I'm here to tell you that you can't, you are capable of becoming a mom or a dad, a great mom or a great dad. And even if you didn't see that growing up, even if you didn't experience that, even if you didn't.

Receive that you can give to your kids, whether you have kids now, or sometime in the future, you can give to them what you didn't receive growing up and to do. So check out that episode, you can learn some tips and tactics on how to become the parent that maybe you wish you had, or that you want to be.

Again, that's episode 44. That's a wrap. And before we close out the show, if you're someone who recognizes the pain and the problems faced by teenagers and young adults who come from broken families and you want to help them, we wanna team up with you. A speaking engagement at your school at your church or conference could be exactly what those young people.

Need to hear. And our talks are geared toward helping young people from broken families to do a few things first, to navigate their pain and problems in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, they're also gonna learn simple tactics to heal their brokenness so they can feel whole again, they'll also learn tips on how to build healthy relationships, which can really be a struggle for people like us and so much more.

And some of our speaking engagements have been done. Organizations like Franciscan university of Steubenville Ave, Maria university focus the fellowship of Catholic university students, the archdiocese of Denver, the archdiocese of San Francisco and the diocese of San Diego. And as you can tell so far, our speaking engagements have been for Catholic audiences, but we don't just serve Catholics.

And so if you're interested in scheduling a live virtual talk, we'd love to talk with you. Just go to restored ministry.com/speaking again, restored ministry. singular.com/speaking. You can view the talks that we offer, and then you can request pricing and more info. And, uh, perhaps if you're ready, we could even get an event booked.

I'd love to serve you. We'd love to serve you again, go to ReSTOR ministry. Dot com slash speaking. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 62. Again, all the episode numbers from the clips that you heard are on that page. If you wanna listen to those whole episodes, thank you so much for listening.

If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's really struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, Share this podcast with them guys. We really appreciate your support for the podcast in our ministry this year. So many of you have shared the podcast with others or told people about restoring me just can't.

Thank you enough. Thank you so much for everything you've done to support us and to spread this work far and wide from our team at ReSTOR, we're just honored to serve you, and we wish you the best in this new year. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

A Marital Chill Pill: Why Some Countries are Forcing Couples to Wait before Divorce

2 minute read

I think we can all agree that marriage is hard. Even if you aren’t married yourself, it’s easy to imagine how living with someone day in and day out, for years and years, could get dicey. We all have quirks, some of which are harmless, but over time can become annoying. And some which are straight sinful—since we are all imperfect and have a tendency toward vice. People are human, after all.

This alone is enough to cause difficulty—and definitely does—in any close relationship, especially one as intimate as marriage. Add to that the external difficulties people go through—financial hardship, stressful jobs, parenting struggles, etc.—and it’s easy to understand why the decision to just call it quits can be so tempting at times.

That being said, it has become increasingly evident that divorce is harmful to the children involved—and often doesn’t bring the former couple the happiness they hoped for either. 

For these reasons, some countries are attempting to force couples into reconsidering their decision to separate. They are doing this by implementing a period of time that the couple has to stay together after making the decision to divorce but before they can legally do so—a marital “chill pill” if you will. For example, at the beginning of last year, China passed a law that requires couples who are seeking a divorce to postpone for 30 days before formalizing it. As of 2019 in Denmark, parents seeking a divorce are required to take a course and wait three months before they can separate. 

As you can imagine, there has been a lot of controversy surrounding these laws. Many see these restrictions as simply roadblocks to men and women finding happiness again. And though these laws are not supposed to apply in extreme cases such as abuse, some question whether individuals in bad situations are actually being given exemptions or not. Still others believe it is not the role of the government to interfere with marital relationships in this way, regardless of the outcome.

Whether or not you can agree with laws such as these, the reported results of these laws certainly give us something to think about. According to the Chinese ministry of civil affairs. Only 296,000 divorces were registered in the first three months of 2021, as opposed to the 1.06 million the same quarter a year before.

In Denmark, the course was tested between 2015 and 2018 on 2,500 volunteers and the results were “staggering,” according to Dr. Martin Hald from the University of Copenhagen, one of the course creators. 

It seems this time for reflection is serving as a breather of sorts for these strained couples, giving them an opportunity to regroup and get back on track. 

While marriage can be extremely trying, and there is rarely such a thing as a ‘quick fix,’ the findings from these laws challenge the widely held belief that divorce is always the answer to a hard or bad marriage. In fact, in other areas of life we see that this logic doesn’t hold. For example, if a workout routine is exceedingly difficult, you’ll rarely hear someone tell you: “just quit.” If work has become more stressful, you probably won’t simply quit to avoid the difficulty. When your car breaks down you don’t just throw it away without trying your best to fix it first.

Hard things take hard work, and often the most difficult things are also the most worthwhile. These laws remind us that while marital struggles will happen over the course of the years, often difficulties are temporary and almost always can be worked through. Maybe many more marriages can be saved if couples wait just a little longer before pulling the trigger on divorce. 

#061: Will I Always Feel Stuck? | Alexandra M

When Alexandra was in 7th grade, her parents divorced. Almost immediately, she went to counseling, which led her to believe that the effects of her parents’ divorce were in her past. She thought she was healed.

But in college, poor decisions and failed relationships showed her that perhaps it wasn’t resolved like she thought. She woke up on her birthday feeling sad and stuck, asking the question: Am I gonna be in this same spot for the rest of my life? 

In this episode, she shares the rest of her story and more:

• How working on herself has now led her to a really beautiful, healthy relationship

• How a memento from her past made her realize how much her parents’ divorce was still affecting her

• The answer to “Do you hate your parents?”

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Alexandra was in seventh grade when her parents divorced and almost immediately, her parents sent her to counseling for some time, which led her to believe that the effects from her parents' divorce were in her past. She thought she was fine. She thought she was healed, but in college, poor decisions that she made and failed relationships showed her that perhaps it wasn't resolved the way that she had thought.

And it all finally caught up to her. It hit her on her birthday. She woke up on her birthday and she felt really sad. She felt like she hit a dead end in life and those feelings. Caused her to ask some really tough questions. She asked, am I gonna be in the same spot for the rest of my life? What is it in my life?

That's preventing me from having a family of my own. And in this episode, she shares the rest of her story. She explains how working on herself has now led her to really beautiful, healthy relationship. She touches on how. Silence has given her a better understanding of her own brokenness and how it's even helped her heal.

She talks about how a memento from her past made her realize how much her parents' divorce was still affecting her. She answers the question. Do you hate your parents? And she also shares how restored has helped her in her healing journey. Really good conversation. So keep listening,

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' support, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listen. This is episode 61. If you're someone who recognizes the pain and problems faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families and you wanna help them, we wanna team up with you.

A speaking engagement at your school at your church or conference could be exactly what those young people need. And our talks are geared toward helping young people from broken families to navigate their pain and problems in healthy ways to learn simple tactics that they can use to heal their brokenness so they can feel whole.

Learn how to build healthy relationships and so much more. And some of our clients, first speaking engagements have been FCAN university of Steubenville Ave, Maria university focused the fellowship of Catholic university students. We've also worked with the archdiocese of Denver, the archdiocese of San Francisco, the diocese of San Diego.

And we'd love to work with you. And as you can tell so far, our speaking engagements have been for Catholic audiences, but we don't just serve Catholics. And if you're interested in scheduling a live or virtual talk, we'd love to hear from you. Just go to restored ministry.com/speaking again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/speaking.

You can view the talks that we offer there. You can request pricing, and if you're ready, you can even book an event. So go ahead to restored ministry.com/speak. My guest today is Alexandra. Madrin originally from South Dakota. Alexandra has lived and worked in Denver for the past five years. After hearing about the ReSTOR podcast from her friend, Alexandra began working through the long term effects that her parents divorce left in her life.

Alexandria is enthusiastic about helping others to discover the freedom that comes through personal development and growth, and is an advocate of strong friendships with others who have experienced divorce and the practice of therapy. To heal and grow. She's found that there is hope and goodness after one's parent's divorce and it all comes down to a personal choice to begin again, find healing and trust that your life will be one containing lasting love.

I really loved this conversation with Alexandra. I'm so excited to share it with you,

Alex. It's great to have your friend. Thank you, Joey. It's good to be here. Yeah, we, what we met went earlier this year. It hasn't been too long. We haven't even known each other, I guess what a full year yet, but yeah. Yeah. You've um, you've been through a lot in this last year and we we'll talk about some of that.

I'm sure. But let's go back in time. Let's go back to when. Your parents separated divorce. Mm-hmm . How old were you first of all? When they separated divorce mm-hmm yeah, so they were never really, um, separated. Um, it was kind of a gradual lead up to just divorce and I was in the seventh grade. Okay. Yeah. So you were young mm-hmm

Okay. And that's, that's such a sensitive part of life. Do you remember how old you were at that age? That's like what? 11, 12? Yeah, I think it was like. A lot of it. I don't, I don't really remember, but yeah, in junior high, junior high. Yeah. So however old you are in junior high. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. I'm just thinking of like the international people we have.

And so that just such a young tender age mm-hmm what, what happened as much as you're comfortable sharing what happens? Yeah, for sure. So, um, growing up my parents, they fought a. And, and it kind of just got to the point gradually over time, where a lot of, you know, addiction, alcohol addiction, and just some struggles that they were having just got worse and worse and, um, some financial struggles and kind of just reached a tipping point.

I think it was in 2007 or eight where yeah, they're just. One parent had enough and, and filed for divorce. So that's, , that's kind of the gist of the story. There's nothing else really, to it, aside from there was just a, a gradual buildup of, of struggle. Totally. Mm-hmm and that's one of the things I think, and it's important to point that out because.

I think a, one of the misunderstandings that people have when I talk to them about resort and what we try to do mm-hmm is that they think maybe we're solely focused on the event of the divorce mm-hmm , but so often, and this is what I typically say. It's like, it's not like a, an atomic bomb randomly went off.

It's like, there's been problems in the marriage for years and years, usually. Mm-hmm and all that lead up is part of the trauma. It's part of the difficulty it's part of what really affects us. It's not just the event of the divorce, so that in and of itself, it's not worthy to say that that does affect us in a unique way.

Mm-hmm , but everything that led up to a. Is part of it as well. Mm-hmm so I think, yeah, it makes sense that mm-hmm it was gradual, I would say it's probably most people's experience, but how did you see that affect you? How did your parents broken marriage? Mm-hmm their struggles, their divorce. How did that affect you?

Yeah. Um, well, when it was going on, um, I did actually go to a therapist or a counselor at the time, so I was in junior high and then, you know, after they filed, I kept going just during. This time of all of this happening. Um, yeah. So at the time I thought, you know, this is really great. I'm getting the help I need.

And, and then I went off to college and I thought. I thought that I was good to go. I was like, yeah, I I've healed from this. I, you know, my parents aren't necessarily in the super great place, but at least things are kind of settled down now. Mm-hmm and this is the, the new normal, I thought phrase, but , it's the new normal.

Um, and so, yeah, I, I thought I was fine, but in college looking back and I didn't really realize this in the time, but in college I was making a lot of really, really dumb decision. Kind of, a lot of people would consider this pretty normal for college behavior, but, um, for the kind of person that I am and the per the people who raised me, it was not normal for me to act that way.

And so just a lot of partying and getting into things that, that I shouldn't have been getting into. And I look back now and I really, I really see that that was, that was a coping mechanism. I was really trying to, yeah, I'd run away from, from some pain. At that time. Totally. What did that look like day to day?

Like mm-hmm , you know, were you aware that you were coping in unhealthy ways or was it kind of just like, this is my life and mm-hmm then you later realized. Maybe this isn't the best way to live? Absolutely not. Yeah. I would fill my day from like three jobs in college and I would work. Wow. Like one job from at the student center from like 10 to two, so I could study and then I would get up and I'd be the barista at the student center from eight to 11, and then I'd go to class and then I'd teach wow.

Ballet from three to five. And then you. Sleep wow. In, in between. So I was really, yeah. Outside of just making like bad decisions, as far as like drinking, uh, excessively, I was also really just every minute of my day I was doing something mm-hmm, trying to find a place kind of trying to find like, okay, what's, you know, what's my purpose?

Where, where am I supposed to be? And at what time am I supposed to be there? Just kind of every. Filling it up. Were you afraid of solitude? Were you afraid of kind of facing yourself in mm-hmm a lack of busyness, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And I still struggle with that. I really, yeah. I just, I I'm like such a productive person, but it's, it is hard to just sit and be.

And I think a lot of that is because I know when I'm sitting, um, in silence or yeah, I'm a Christian. So sitting in prayer. Yeah. I tend to navigate towards, you know, the areas of my life, where it's like, okay, I'm struggling in this. So a lot of that navigation goes towards yeah. My parents divorce. So of course it makes sense to just fill that time.

So you don't have to think about it. It's easier. I know, gosh, for so many years I just saw it an escape and I'm still tempted to that. Right. It's like, It's so much easier at times, just to drown out your pain or your problems and not face them and not deal with them. And so totally relate to that. I, uh, speaking of solitude, it, it can be scary.

It's like the scariest person to face, I think is yourself. Mm-hmm . And I remember, uh, at one point I was driving in the mountains alone. So for everyone listening, we Alexandra and I both live in Denver, Colorado. And so we have the beautiful Rocky mountains out here and. You know, I know you love the mountains.

Mm-hmm, , we've been skiing together. We, um, yeah, I I've been at times taking drives and mountains by myself. Um, and, uh, I remember I was meeting up with some friends and I was getting late at night and there was just like, no one in the car with me and I was alone and I was like, so uncomfortable. mm-hmm this is, this is like a few years back.

I'm like, this is like horrible. Like I really need to, I felt that loneliness that I really hadn't felt for a long time. Partly because like, you know, I've filled my life with friends and with my own marriage and now with Lucy, but, uh, yeah, I think it is good to go there even though it is scary. Mm-hmm yeah.

And, and the silence is when you really, you really start to understand what what's missing. I think, uh, for me, when I would go into that silence, I, I would go into kind of the memories too at times, so totally. Never never fun, but yeah, there's, there's work to be done. And, and I think any, yeah, anybody who's gone through a, a divorce or a parent's divorce, I think they can attest to that.

That, um, there's always gonna be work to be done. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's not like. yeah, you reach the, the summit and then you check it off your list and never deal with that. Again, mm-hmm, one thing a that struck me when I met you just getting to know you and like what you were up to in life and like your work situation is like, I did, I could tell you were a hard worker mm-hmm like, I could tell you were like structured, have a structured life you, you know, get after it.

And I admire that. And even hearing that about you in college, like three jobs. So you mentioned how it was kind of a way to fill the time and to kinda keep you busy. If you were comfortable talking about this was the financial side, a struggle too, cuz you mentioned. That that was for your parents. Mm-hmm and I know for a lot of us, um, that was the reality.

Like I know my parents like handled money very, very poorly mm-hmm and, um, so my siblings and I have just, you know, I, I don't like pay my parents for it or anything. I think there's been a lot of good lessons in just trying to like, find our own way. Yeah. It's a lot of us like, deal with that. So I'm just curious, was that part of the motivation to work so many jobs or did you just wanna get out and do stuff?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was entering college at a time where both of my parents couldn't really help a ton with, you know, they couldn't provide full tuition. so sure had to figure that out as some, some capacity, so definitely needed to work the capacity of which I was working in college. Was not necessary.

And, you know, the partying lifestyle obviously comes with expensives. So, okay. A lot of that had to do with, you know, okay. I wanna pay to go to this sorority event or mm-hmm, go to Sioux falls and South Dakota where I, I went to college and yeah. And, and get a new dress for this event or whatever it was.

There was a lot of, um, A lot of unnecessary kind of spending too, so. Totally. Yeah. No. And that makes sense. And one of the things, um, That John Eldridge writes about. He, you know, he's so insightful, John Eldridge. I dunno if you've read anything about him, but he, uh, he wrote wild at heart. Mm. And he talks about it a lot about men mm-hmm

And one of the things he says in his one book fathered by God, is that a lot of times, and I don't know if this is true in your case too, but this is what I've observed in people I've known who come from broken families. Mm-hmm a lot of times guys, especially will. Grow up, get a real job, you know, start making real money.

Mm-hmm and then they start buying themselves like toys mm-hmm and his insight is that part of the reason they do that often is because they weren't like delighted in as kids mm-hmm like they didn't receive the love, the affirmation, the attention that they craved. And so when they get into a position where they can afford it, they start kind of doting themselves, like.

You know, putting, bringing all these gadgets in their life or cars or doing expensive trips and things like that, which in and of themselves, like not bad things mm-hmm , but, um, but there there's a deeper need there and that, that was his insight. So is that something that you can relate to? I'm curious on the feminine side of it, cuz it's different for a guy I think.

Yeah. I don't, I don't think so. A lot of just, yeah, working in college and, and getting nice things was maybe to fill void, but, but mostly just to fill the time. Totally. Yeah. Makes a ton of sense. Dating relationships. Mm-hmm so I know this is like one of the main themes for your story. Yeah. Is there, were there were struggles there?

Yeah. Talk to me about that. How has, you know, everything you went through with your family affected your dating relationships? Mm-hmm yeah, I would say it is the main theme. It's kind of what's brought me to this podcast. I would say. So in college was in some relationships, just super unhealthy, again, coping pain, all that stuff.

And then when I got outta college, I didn't date for a while, but Billy didn't know like what healthy was. Yeah. What , what is healthy? Um, I had, I had friends and family and healthy relationships, but when it came to mine, I was just doing something wrong. So I got out of our relationship late last year and woke.

It was kind of like two weeks before, uh, my birthday or three weeks before my birthday. And I get O I get up in, in the morning of my birthday and I'm just, I'm so sad. And I'm like, why am I so sad? it's my birthday. And I, I just started thinking and I'm like, I don't, I don't know if I'm ever gonna not be in the place that I am.

On my birthday, if I don't kind of seriously change something in my life, um, I really desired a family, but, but not to the extent of like changing my relationships to get there. And that was kind of the, the turning point for me is, is that birthday. And that week of kind of like unpacking what is. In my life, that's preventing me from, from eventually having a family of my own and, um, I would just date not with serious intention.

A lot of 'em went the same, just not towards marriage. And that's something that I desired, but I was like, why can't I get there? Yeah. So. I, I just took a step back and I was like, okay, something's missing here. And then a couple months later, just some events happened. And I found a picture of, of my family when I was a really little girl.

And that, that picture just caused me to, just to stop. I just broke down and I. I just sobbed. And I was like, this is not really a normal reaction of finding a picture of, of your family together. Right. And I started, yeah. I started thinking like, maybe there's something that I thought had been, uh, completed in therapy when I was in the seventh grade.

That is maybe still lingering . Yeah. And decided. Yeah, just with a lot of conversations with my friends that maybe I should go back to therapy and start thinking about relationships and, and what, what I could work on to eventually someday have a family of my own. Yeah. Wow. And that that's a big step. We were talking before we were recording.

We were having dinner actually. And, um, you were saying how. Yeah, that, that takes a lot of courage to just kind of like take those first steps down that path. And, but you did it and you're on the path. Mm-hmm and that's, I think that's such a victory in and of itself because there's so many people who just aren't, you know, they, they feel stuck, like you said, mm-hmm they feel the sadness.

They struggle with, you know, excessive drinking and they struggle with other unhealthy ways of coping mm-hmm , but they never take those steps to kind of, to overcome that, to heal what's at the root of all that. And so, yeah, I just admired you for getting after it and walking down that path, but it took some time, right.

Mm-hmm to get there. Yeah. And I think it's something that a lot of people need to come, uh, to terms with on their own, where they kind of get to this place where they're like, okay, I'm at a dead end again and again, and again, with the things that are important to me in my life. And so, yeah, it takes a ton of courage and I.

I really encourage anyone who's there who maybe today is your birthday or, you know, your birthday's next week and you're waking up and you're saying, gosh, am I gonna be this? Am I gonna be in this same spot for the rest of my life? Because I, I can't deal with, you know, what happened when I was younger.

You can, you can. And, and I know cuz I did and you're, you're so strong. It's so. But nothing is gonna change unless you deal with it. Dang. Wow. sorry. You're good at this. No, that that's me to drop a, a truth, Bob, but there it is. There it is. Wow. No, that's so, and that's so hopeful too, because I think those of us who've been in those really dark places.

I think sometimes we can forget what it's like to be there. Mm-hmm and there there's people listening right now who are right there right now. and so everything you just said, it's like, yes, like that's so, so hopeful. Like you can't, you don't need to have that life. You can have something better, which is just mm-hmm.

so beautiful. Switching gears a little. So often for those of us who come from broken families, there were certain things that we needed from our parents that they never provided for us often, not through malicious intent. Mm-hmm, , it's just, they were so busy with their own pain in their own lives that they just didn't give us what we needed.

Mm-hmm what did you need from your parents that, you know, they weren't aware of or didn't provide for you? Yeah, I'd say probably emotional stability, something that. It's really hard to come to terms with is that, you know, when parents are getting divorced, it's a very unnatural thing. So, uh, no one usually gets married with the intention of divorcing.

And so when. when parents get divorced, um, their emotions, they're dealing with those, you know, all over the place. And yeah, a kid at, at any age really needs, um, yeah, emotional stability from a parent. And so really throughout my life, I've had to learn how to set boundaries with, you know, emotional relationships.

I think I, I have a, a deep mercy for my parents because I know that. I know that they, they probably did the best they could, but as a, as a adult, now I look back and I'm like, yeah, I, I, wasn't given the, the emotional maturity that a parent needed to provide. Totally. And I totally can relate to that too. I, I think a lot of our parents were dealt a bad hand, not to say our generation is perfect, cuz we're not, we have own flaws for.

And not to say that we'll all be perfect parents. We won't we'll screw our kids off in some ways. I'm sure. But I, I think there is like, at least we have something to look back on and see, like our parents grew up through pretty crazy times. Mm-hmm like what? Sixties? Seventies, eighties, like all that. Yeah.

I think now we're starting to look back and unpack like, yeah. The way that a lot of us were parented, just wasn't adequate mm-hmm and you know, like you said, a lot of us say they did the best they can, but objectively we can look back and say it could have been better. Mm-hmm and, um, and that's not, you know, us saying that we hate our parents.

In fact, I wanna ask you, do you hate your parents? Absolutely not. Okay. , that's, that's one of misconception that I think a lot of people have about resort is that they're like, oh, you're trying to get people to hate their parents. And like, no, no, we actually wanna like kill those relationships. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And I think there's a, there's a definite reality that your family can be good again. Hmm. There's a grief that, you know, anybody whose parents are divorced, uh, lives with for the rest of their life. it is it's. yeah, it's sad. And with that sadness is yeah. Grief. And, but the, but on the other, on the other end, there is a light that, that people can change and heal.

And I think that parents can love their kids better throughout their lives, you know? So totally. I, yeah. I love, I love both my parents dearly we have great relationships with both of them, so that's beautiful. Definitely. Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure there's struggles, but we all have those struggles. And I know, yeah.

Lately my parents have been more cordial to each other. Mm-hmm the, the divorce was tough. It was, they were just, it was a three year process and a long divorce mm-hmm is two years mm-hmm and it was like three. So it was just so ugly and messy and full of drama. Thankfully, a lot of that has kind of died out.

There's still struggles though, but, but I could say too, Typically get along with my parents much, much better now mm-hmm than I did in the past. And that's one of the things for any parents listening right now. Uh, we love you guys. We're just often dealing with our own stuff and, uh, we might not totally know how to handle every situation.

It can, it can be hard and. Uh, there can be situations that almost feel impossible to us. It's like, I don't know what to do in this situation. It's, mm-hmm, like a lose, lose situation. I know I've dealt with that, but to any parents watch are listening, you play such a major role in helping us deal with the trauma, with the brokenness in our own lives.

You might not be able to be the one that's there for us through all of it. Um, we might need that space. At least the research I've seen has said that the parents play a huge role in helping us to, to navigate life, um, after the fact. And so, uh, I, I think it, it's good for you as a parent to understand that you are needed, you are important, both parents, mom, and dad.

And so, um, you have an important role to play. So with that, let's get into. coping and healing. So you gave an example of kind of unhealthy coping mm-hmm . How about on the flip side, what were some things that you did maybe two or three things that helped you cope in healthy ways and then ultimately helped you begin to heal as well?

Mm-hmm so the first decision that I had to make to get there was just to do it to acknowledge. Yeah, this is gonna be hard. I might turn into an unpleasant person while this is happening. so, yeah. Did you warn all your friends? And I, I did. I talked to my roommates and I was like, Hey, listen, I'm thinking about, you know, going to therapy to revisit some of the childhood things that happened in my life.

So they knew, and they were super supportive, but. Good for you, by the way, most people wouldn't do that. I was kind of joking, but oh, wow. That's amazing though. That's really good. Yeah. I was like, I better warn them if I'm like gonna be crabby. I don't know. So um, yeah, so I, I actually that's the first thing is I, I sought out a therapist and found somebody I really liked and she's been wonderful and that has been unbelievably difficult, but so worth it.

Um, so if you're even. Considering it, I hope you do go forward with it. Aside from therapy. Um, really finding, I think it's important to have friends who have been in the same situation for me personally, it can be very difficult to have a friend group of. Of friends with perfect families. And I know not every family's perfect, but there's some that are pretty darn close yeah.

Especially comparatively, like, yeah, I know I've looked at my family and then friends of mine, like mm-hmm you have a really good family. Yeah. And I, I'm definitely not advising you to go out and, you know, find a bunch of. Of friends only from divorced parents, but it is helpful to have, um, some friends that really do understand because they've been there.

I have a couple friends that I call upon, um, and that call upon me and we, we really support each other around difficult times. Like the holidays, if there's weddings or whatever, the, the family events are coming up. It's really helpful to have people who understand because they know themselves because they've gone through it.

Totally. Yeah. That's been really helpful for me too. Yeah. Cause a lot of times I think we feel like freaks. We feel alone. We feel like, why am I so bothered by this? Everyone else seems to be fine. Everyone else says it's for the best. Everyone else says my parents, you know, your parents are happier. You should be happy to mm-hmm.

But then we feel this hurt. We feel this emptiness, we feel stuck in life and we know like, no, something's not right. So if you have people who say mm-hmm, actually, that's an appropriate response for what you've been through. You're not weird at all. Mm-hmm , that's suffering. Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and kind of going off of what you just said, there are scars left behind.

So even if it is the, you know, the best or whatever, the situation or whatever anybody's telling you about your parents' divorce, um, there's still a scar left on everyone that was involved and that scar does not go away. And sometimes that scar is more visible around certain times of the year or certain events like, uh, weddings or funerals, whatever it is that brings up those family gatherings, those scars are, are out to, and everyone can see them.

And so, yeah. Yeah. Something to remember. Yeah. It can be hard to deal with. It's like, you know, you fall and cut yourself. Mm-hmm , it's like you can heal the wound. Or, you know, men, the moon a bit mm-hmm but the scar's still gonna be there. Mm-hmm , it's a good reminder. Aside from therapy and friends. Was there anything else that was helpful?

Yeah, I mean, uh, I think as hard as it is spending a lot of time alone, as much as you can, to just really be honest with yourself. So if you see, you know, in different areas of your life, where you are, you're backing away. you're avoiding talking to somebody and your family, or you are you're struggling in relationships, really take, I would recommend.

And this is what I did is I just really took a step back, spent a lot of time alone, reflecting and even outside of therapy. So you do a lot of reflecting in therapy, but a lot of time, you know, just taking some time to be alone and work on yourself. Yeah. It's. Yeah. It's the hardest work you'll ever do, right?

Mm-hmm yeah. Coming from someone who you work hard, right? Yeah. I know you, gosh, you put so much time for studying for the LSAT and now looking at law school and just the jobs mm-hmm , you know, the jobs you've done the job you're in right now. So it is hard work mm-hmm and I'd much rather do a lot of other things than that.

We're always a work in progress. Mm-hmm I know you would say you're working on it still, but mm-hmm, , how's life different for you. How have you seen yourself grow and improve even in, you know, I know you've said this is relatively recent for you. Mm-hmm but yeah, you, you, I could tell you've grown. How have, have you grown?

Yeah. Um, there's such a freedom and, and first acknowledging like, Hey, I need help. I'm, I'm struggling with these, these, um, these memories and, and this grief, um, I think I've changed specifically because I've, I've really been able to learn how to love better around me. And, and I think healing really comes from.

accepting love from others as well. So, um, I'm in a, in a relationship right now and it's, it's going really well. Yeah. Um, and I think that, um, I've learned a lot through this relationship about, yeah. Just how to love someone better. And that's, that's a huge for me, a huge win it's. It's a. , it's a really hard thing to do.

Um, you have to dig with great courage, look at your life honestly, and say, I'm struggling. I need change. But when you do that, the fruit that comes after that is so, so good. You said you were able to learn to love better mm-hmm but that didn't just happen right away. Mm-hmm was there some sort of progression where you, I know you, you know, woke up and saw, man, I have all these failed relationships.

Like they're not going where I want them to go, which ultimately is to marriage and family life. Mm-hmm which, by the way, I know, you know, this mm-hmm that's normal for people like us. We typically have more failed relationships. Mm-hmm which sucks. but it's just part of the deal. Mm. . Yeah. I mean, I'm guessing your friendships played a role in that, but was there anything else in terms of like learning to love mm-hmm that helped you turn a corner or get to a point where you can love the way that you're loving right now in your mm-hmm dating relationship.

Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. I think, um, there's this, this analogy is like the, um, Adam and Eve. Analogy that I've heard, uh, from a couple different people, but it's basically, um, when you think of the sin that, that you've committed, it really has all comes down to the fact that she was grasping for that apple. Um, it wasn't like freely given to her, you know, it wasn't an act.

It wasn't, it wasn't a gift. Um, it was, it was grasping for something there. And I think when. Adult children are divorced kind of step back and they're like, okay, I'm gonna receive this gift of like, of healing, but also I'm gonna stop grasping for what I think a relationship is. And I'm just gonna pause.

And work on myself until I'm given that gift and that healing, I think that's a really good place to be. So for anybody out there, that's maybe either struggling in relationships or is wondering, like how do I change? Just pause and, um, really work on yourself first mm-hmm because I know I was really grasping for just for things that were not there, which is not loving someone at all.

So when you stop grasping, you're really able to be free to love. that's beautiful. That takes a lot of patience and. courage, like you said before to just kind of be still and not grasp. I think American culture especially is all about grasping mm-hmm right. Where the ambitious culture in a lot of ways, not that others aren't, but in a lot of ways, that's like very signature of American culture.

So that is, that is such a different approach and that's hard, but that's beautiful. They've learned that, uh, I love the point you made about working on your. I think a lot of times, all of us, almost all of us, we really, we want really beautiful relationships. We want happiness. We want love, we want all those good things, but we don't really make the connection that you just made, that your personal condition typically is reflected in your relationships.

Mm-hmm so if you're a mess, your relationships are probably gonna be a mess too. . And so taking that time to begin working on yourselves and mm-hmm or on yourself, and like you said, it's always a work in progress. Mm-hmm , but it is something you can make substantial progress on. And then when you enter in a, a relationship, you're at a point where you can continue that work in the relationship mm-hmm and that's something that you alluded to too.

It sounds like the relationship you're in right now has been healing in itself, which is really beautiful. Did you wanna talk about that at all? Yeah, for sure. so yeah, I was actually, uh, the first person I brought home. Since, you know, early college. So it's kind of a big deal. Yeah. It is a bigger deal. I think for adult children of divorce or, or teens or young adult children of divorce to bring significant others home, because it can be a very messy thing to see.

So it's very vulnerable to put somebody in that atmosphere of, yeah. Hey, this is our family, even though our family's. If somebody's not really privy to that, it can be, yeah, it can be scary. So a very healing experience in my relationship has, yeah, just been able to, to, uh, bring them home and, and reveal reveal our family.

Um, and have that completely accepted. Wow. But there's obviously there's conversations that have to happen before that happens. So working on myself has led to me, realizing those conversations have to happen before, you know, you jump right into, Hey, come. Come meet my family. So it's like a preliminary work to the preliminary work.

Okay. To the event. Nice. Okay. So lots of steps, but yes, it's good. You gotta go through it if it's okay. What were some of those conversations that you had that maybe can give people listening right now who, um, are a little bit behind you on the path? Uh, and a guide to maybe talk about this, talk about that before you get to that point, what were some of those conversations?

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So , for me, it, it looked a lot like sitting them down and kind of explaining to the level of comfort that you feel mm-hmm , there are some things about my family that I would like you to know before you meet them. Mm-hmm like literally those words. Exactly. I love my family. We are a close family, or we are not a close family.

Whatever your situation is. here's some context as to what it might be like to prepare you for this visit. I, I feel this way around my family and I may act this way around my family because of these reasons. Hmm. At the end of the day, I love my family, but we are all still a work in progress because of what happened.

Yeah. Okay. I'm sure you had other conversations too, but that like that alone is, yeah, that's powerful. It's really helpful. How did he react to that? Not to put him on the spot yeah, no, he was super understanding and honestly, very much more understanding that I thought so for a while it was kind of like, does he come, does he.

And at the end of the day, it was like, this is, you know, when you're seriously dating someone, it's, it's a reality that they're gonna have to meet your family eventually. Yeah. If you're gonna move forward and grow. So it was, for me, at least it was kind of like this has to happen eventually. Mm-hmm and I've been doing the work.

So now is the time I love that. courage. Yeah. Dig deep, you know? awesome. You're getting me pumped up. good. Um, how did it go at home? Great. So much better than I ever thought. Honestly, complete piece. It was a really great situation. So I think it's. It's also a great conversation to have, you know, and maybe think about first, um, before you have that conversation of, okay.

What is, what's a good timeline to bring someone home or what what's too long. mm-hmm yeah. How much time should you spend with certain people? You know, people who maybe. Um, are very triggering or, or cause you a lot of anxiety, maybe don't spend the whole time with them. So just kind of common sense like that.

Yeah. But think about those things ahead of time. And I I'd say it's never a bad idea to just prepare as much as you can. Mm-hmm . But in my experience, it went a lot better than I thought it would. So kind of going back to the, you know, have courage and be brave because it could go really bad, but it could also, it could go really well.

And if, and if that person. is, is the person. And they're gonna understand, and they'll love you through it. Mm-hmm and one of the things you said before struck me just how you kind of warned him, that you may be a little bit of a different person. I dunno if you put it in those words. Exactly. But I know for me, a lot of times, like I kind of go back to my old self when I'm with my family.

I think that's a pretty typical experience. Mm-hmm you go home you're with your siblings. You're with your mom, your dad, whatever the scenario is. And. yeah, you kind of revert to maybe an older version of yourself. So I think it is wise to warn someone be like, I might be a little bit more this way. Mm-hmm than you might know me.

Yeah. That that's really, really good. And you mentioned peace mm-hmm this relationship you told me is, but there's been a lot of peace. Mm-hmm I'm sure there's been. Struggles and things along the way, but for the most part am I, did I hear you right? That there's, there's been a lot of peace, a lot of peace.

Yes. That's beautiful. Contrast that with the past, like, what were your, what did you feel in your relationships in the past? Mm-hmm , you know, I think it's, it's difficult to nothing in life is gonna be peaceful if you haven't kind of done the work for that piece to arrive. So yeah. Had I maybe worked on myself and, and these issues that I was having personally.

Before meeting past boyfriends, maybe they have would've gotten differently. But I think the lack of peace was really, honestly, I think it was a lot on me. Hmm. Because I didn't really know what I wanted because I didn't really believe in marriage I didn't really think that. And that's maybe dramatic, but I didn't believe in marriage for me.

I should say didn't really know what, what could that look like in my life? what, what would it look like to really share my days with someone and have that work out? What decisions would I have to make to, to have that happen? So all of those questions weren't being asked, so it was more of a hobby than a vocation.

Dang. There's a quote. that's beautiful. Yeah. And I think a lot of people approach dating like that, where it's kind of like a, sport's like recreation. It's like something to, like you said, a hobby, something to do. Yeah. As opposed to like a means to an end, which would be figuring out if you're meant to spend your life with this person.

Mm-hmm . Yeah. So that's beautiful. You, you made that switch, uh, you didn't believe that marriage could work for you. Why was that? Why not? You? Yeah, I, I thought that honestly, I just wasn't ready and I didn't think I was ever gonna be ready. I had lost a lot of faith because I had had dated a lot. Mm-hmm and again, if I would've just started doing the work earlier, I wouldn't have dated so much probably, but I don't know.

Maybe not fair. You never know. You could always go back, but you just never know you are where you're supposed to be. I. yeah, that, that makes a ton of sense. Yeah. And you were kind of worn out and mm-hmm, kind of ready to throw the towel in and was part of it too. Were you just skeptical about the idea of marriage lasting cuz you saw your parents fall apart?

Yeah. I had been in weddings for, for friends and those weddings. I totally believed that they and still do believe. That they will work and that their strong marriages, there was just something, I think when it came down to me that because growing up didn't have the example in the home of what a marriage is, is supposed to be.

Like, I never, I wasn't constantly thinking of like on my wedding day or when I have kids. Or my marriage, because when you're not around that all, all the time, you don't think about it for yourself, you know? Yeah. Kind of think of it as like, okay. The senior class, um, in high school, everyone's talking to each other, you're around it all the time.

Who's gonna go on and do what with their lives. We're all talking about it. Right. Mm-hmm but when you grow up with a family, um, is not without a good a marriage. And that ends in divorce. It's not as much talked about as like, what is your, your future marriage gonna look like? You just don't talk about it.

No, no, you don't and yeah, man, there's so much there. A lot of times, I think there's a temptation to, yeah. Either run for men. Just think like that's not really an option for me. Mm-hmm . Or what I've seen on the other end of the spectrum is kind of idolizing it and making it into this thing. That's like, oh, it's gonna be so much better than what my parents had.

And it just becomes this like unrealistic thing that I'm working towards that once I get to it or get in it, it is going to be disappointing because it's not a fairy tale. It's not something that you can make the complete inverse of what your parents had. So there there's a lot there. That makes so much sense.

And it sounds like, um, and I think a lot of people like us deal with this, uh, marriage kind of becomes unattractive. Mm-hmm , it's like, well, why would I do that? I mean, it just seems, you know, looking around at the people in my life or at my parents, it just seems like it just ends in a lot of pain and dysfunction and unhappiness and misery, and like all that stuff.

It's like, mm-hmm who would want that if that's all you've been exposed to. Right. Mm-hmm yeah. And, and would someone ever. Me with all this baggage. Hmm. That's a big lie that I think a lot of, of, um, children of divorce experiences, this who are dating his experience, this lie of, of, you know, I, I just can't give them what they need because I have this part of me that's really broken, but it is, is a lie entirely.

Going back to what you said, you know, the person. That's meant for you that you hopefully marry someday will accept you in, in all of your brokenness. So that's something that I really had to, to call out as a lie and start remembering that, that that's just not true. Dang. That sounds like a long and painful process, but mm-hmm, , you've done so much and I'm sure we could talk forever about that.

Mm-hmm I did wanna ask you. If your parents were listening right now, mm-hmm what would you want them to know? What would you say to them? I think I would tell them that we all experienced in our family, this tragedy and, and at first and foremost would want them to know that I loved them. even though, um, it was really hard for us.

I'd also want them to know that. That the tragedy of their divorce has actually given me kind of a messed up way has given me a lot of freedom to understand myself and to love better. So, and not that I would thank definitely. I would definitely tell them I'm working on myself. I'd really like you to go do the same.

Be. We could just leave it at that, but I do want to, yeah. Let's keep going. yeah, no, I do wanna ask, um, if people wanted to reach out to you mm-hmm how do they, how can they do that? Mm-hmm yeah. I am always free to talk and, and listen, I'm on Instagram. You can email me. Um, my Instagram is, is Alexandra.

Underscore mad, M a T T E R N. Feel free to reach out otherwise. Uh, shoot me an email. Alexandra GMA, Gmail dot. You can also get my information through Joey, if you'd, if you'd like to gimme a call or text, happy to, to be a, a source of encouragement and, um, a friend to walk with you because this is not an easy journey to walk through.

So we gotta stick together. Amen. Not at all. It's not easy, but I do wanna ask you, how has restored helped. Yeah. Not, not to tutor on horn, but just to see, like what's been helpful. What, what is, what have we done that has been useful and helpful to you? Cuz we wanna do more of that. Mm-hmm so what, yeah, what's been helpful.

Yeah. So this podcast, actually, somebody sent this podcast to me on the same week that I found that, that picture of my family. So providential in that way, but yeah, um, this podcast has been unbelievably helpful for me just to realize that there's a lot that I think, you know, growing up, you don't realize that you went through that other people also experienced, so it kind of, it gives you a community.

It also. I, I mean, I would really recommend listening to this podcast with a pen and a paper piece of paper, writing down things that, um, stood out to you and then really sitting with those things afterwards. So I would do that a lot as I would jot something down. Um, I think on a past podcast I wrote down, somebody said it hurts to remember, but it'd be worse to forget.

So. I wrote that down. And I think about that a lot. So it'd be, it'd be worse to forget. So sometimes it's, it's just worth it to remember, you know, so good. Yeah. I wanna give you the last word, first of all, thank you so much for coming on. It takes gots. It takes courage. Like you've been talking about a lot to do something like this to share your story in such a vulnerable way, uh, with people you don't know.

So thank you seriously. Thank you so much. Mm-hmm what words of encourage. Would you give to someone listening right now, especially a young person who just feels so broken in life who feels stuck like you did, especially in their relationships because of what happened in their family because of their parents' broken marriage.

What encouragement, what advice would you give to them? I think I'd want any child, a divorce to know that every day that you decide to start the process of unpacking and adjusting and really dealing with, um, the events that happened. And the reality that is now, you know, your parents' divorce. That is a gift that you're not just giving yourself, but you're also giving to those around you.

So it is not selfish to work on yourself. It is a gift and it is loving the people around you when you choose to, to, um, work on yourself and to deal with these things. And, and you can do it.

One question I loved from the show is when Alexandra. Am I gonna be in this same spot for the rest of my life. And I, I love that question cuz it's such an honest question. I think all of us need to ask that, especially when we feel stuck, we need to look up and really face the reality of where we're at in life.

And I think it's only by doing that, that we'll be able to get unstuck and move ahead in life. Move forward in. Heal any brokenness in our life. That's holding us back. And so how about you? Are, are you gonna always be in the same spot for the rest of your life? And if you want something different, how are you gonna go about healing?

How are you gonna go about growing? Give this some thought this is certainly worth a little bit of time. Like I mentioned at the beginning, if you wanna hire. Stored, if you wanna hire me to come in and do a live or virtual event, just go to restored ministry.com/speaking. We'd love to work with you. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 61.

Thanks so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's really struggling because of their parents' divorce or separation, or maybe even just their broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again. And become the person that you were born to be.

A Fresh Start: Five Simple Tips to Set and Keep New Year's Resolutions

3 minute read

2022 is just over twenty-four hours away. Are you ready? Whether you are or not, the new year is coming for all of us. And as we all know, this is a great time for some self-reflection. Coming up with New Year’s resolutions is something that requires thought. What worked this year? What didn’t? What needs to change? A big part of our mission here at Restored is to help you heal and grow, so you can be whole again and thrive. As cliché as it may sound, New Year’s resolutions can help you to do this. 

New Year’s resolutions get a bad rep because of how often people drop them only a few weeks after setting them. The truth is that change is hard. Even those of us who go into a new habit with the best of intentions and the utmost determination often still give up when an obstacle presents itself. 

So what’s the solution? Before you throw in the towel and dismiss New Year’s resolutions entirely, try approaching them a little differently this year and see what happens. Here are some tips to help you along the way.

1. Examine the four major areas of your life: physical, spiritual, emotional and mental/psychological. Rate on a scale of 1-10 how you are doing in each of these areas. Are you praying every day? Are you exercising regularly? Are you keeping your mind engaged?

   One helpful exercise is to imagine your ideal day/schedule—does it include room for growth in each of these areas? Where are you falling short? 

2. Get specific. One of the first precepts of S.M.A.R.T goals is to be specific. This is because when people set resolutions, they are often unhelpfully vague. They might say something such as: “to get in shape,” or “to eat better.” These types of statements are not conducive to habit change. Motivation is fickle and often short-lived, but habit change requires time and being very intentional, otherwise it is too easy to fall back into our M.O. The more specific you can be with your goals, the better.

   For example, if you want to get in shape, pick a time and place to work out every week. Decide what kind of workout it will be. What do you want the outcome to be? Do you want to be able to run five miles in a specific amount of time? Or lift a certain amount of weight? When do you want to have reached this goal? Why do you want to attain this goal or make this change? Write the answer to these questions down, so you can remind yourself when you aren’t feeling motivated anymore.

3. Make it fun and easy. Eliminate as many obstacles as you can. Continuing with the exercise example, you can take out your workout clothes and lay them out beforehand, or keep a gym bag in your car, place your running shoes right by your bed, have a water bottle filled and ready to go, etc. This concept applies to whatever goal you have, think about what might stop you from your new habit, and do whatever you can to overcome that beforehand. Time tends to be a big challenge in taking on a new activity or implementing change, so schedule your new habit when you’re planning your day/week.

   Make the activity as accessible and enjoyable as possible. One tactic is called ‘temptation bundling.’ Essentially, you pick one thing you enjoy already and attach it to your new habit. For example, if you want to journal more, journal while you drink a glass of wine. If you want to learn a new skill, attach it to a soundtrack you enjoy or podcast you like. If you’re trying to get organized, watch a funny show while you do so. If you want to run more, do so with a friend or group of friends.

4. Reward and reevaluate. Make up your own milestones. Did you work out three times this week? Enjoy a sweet or splurge on dinner out as your reward. The more you associate your habit with positive things, the more likely you are to keep doing it. It’s important to not just plan the change, but how you are going to encourage it with positive reinforcement. If you find yourself failing, ask yourself why.

   Did you really not want that habit change all that much to begin with? Is the schedule you made too intensive and not restful enough? Are you burned out? Do you need someone to hold you accountable? Habit change is often trial and error. As much as we’d like to get it done as quickly as possible, we have to embrace the process and allow room for failure—as long as we get back up after.

5. Be patient. In our age of instant gratification, patience can be hard to come by. We want things, and we want them now. Unfortunately, that’s not usually how habit change works. If you think about it, our bad habits didn’t happen overnight. Maybe it was easier to fall into them, but it took time for one bad decision to become a ritual. The same thing goes for the positive change we want to make in our lives. Often we fail at our resolutions because we get frustrated with how long it takes to form the habit, or see change. So we quit. But change is a long game, so take a deep breath and keep going. As someone once sang, “it just takes some time.”

So there you have it, five simple tips to set and keep your New Year’s resolutions. We hope the beginning of your year is full of hope and joy. 

“We are what we repeatedly do, excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit.”

–Aristotle

#060: Divorced Parents is All I’ve Ever Known | Sydney & Daniel Binette

Since she was 2 or 3, Sydney’s parents have been divorced. It’s all she’s ever known. As a result, she spent most of her childhood living out of a suitcase between Mom and Dad’s house.

While Sydney has navigated her parents’ divorce fairly well, there have certainly been challenges. In this interview, we discuss those challenges and more:

• How Sydney has kept a good relationship with her parents and stepparents

• As someone from an intact home, her husband Dan talks about how the divorce has affected her and their relationship

• Real and raw talk about love and marriage, especially feeling at times like it is “too hard”

Email Joey@RestoredMinistry.com to schedule a meeting

Donate to Restored | Your special gift is doubled, and your monthly gift is tripled during December 2021

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

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• Sydney Binette

  • sydneybinette@gmail.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Sydney was only two or three when her parents divorced. So it's really all she's ever known. And for so much of her life as a child, she lived out of a suitcase going back and forth between mom and dad, which can be so difficult. But I've always been impressed with Sydney for a lot of reasons, but one of them being, she seems like she's learned to navigate her parents' divorce pretty well.

However, as you're gonna hear in the interview, there's certainly been some challenges. So in this interview, we talk about how Sydney has a good relationship with her parents and her stepparents, her husband, Dan joins the interview to talk about how Sydney's parents divorce has affected their relationship and how he's observed it affecting.

Personally, it's really neat to get his perspective, cuz he comes from an intact family while Sydney and I come from broken families. We also touch on how challenging it is to split time between family during the holidays. And we talk about legal separation and divorce in cases of abuse as well. And overall, just a very real conversation about love about marriage, especially when you feel like marriage.

It's just too hard.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 60. If you're interested in helping us grow in helping us reach 1 million young people from broken families, helping them to heal and grow.

I'd love to speak with you personally. I'd love to meet with you on a video call or on a phone call personally, just email me@joeyrestoredministry.com. Again, that's Joey J O E Y. Restored ministry ministry, singular. Dot com I'd be honor to share the vision that my team and I have for the future. Our financial goes to make that vision a reality and the incredible results that we've seen so far, even though we feel like we've barely scratched the surface.

And if you don't have time to meet with me, but you would like to make a year end donation to restore, you can do that. A restored ministry. Dot com slash donate again, ReSTOR ministry.com/donate. If you donate by the end of the year, your gift will be matched up to $15,000. That generous donor has pledged $15,000 to ReSTOR really believes in what we're doing and your special gift.

A one time gift let's say will be doubled. So if you donate a hundred dollars, that will become $200. If you start a monthly gift in December, that will be tripled. So $100 a month goes to $300 a month, for example. So email me to schedule a time@joeyrestorministrydotcomorifyouwannadonatenowgotorestorministry.com slash donate.

So my main guest today is Sidney bonnet, and I wanna introduce her, but I do wanna say that Dan, her husband is kind of in and out of the interview at different parts. So I'll give him in a little bit of an intro too, but Sydney is the wife of Dan and mother to three young children, four year old Rosemary.

Two year old Benjamin and newborn max million Sydney was born in Baltimore, Maryland, where she was raised by her four parents from a young age. She moved to Denver, Colorado after graduating from FCAN university of Steubenville with her bachelor's degree in chemistry and has worked with students and youth of all ages as a lab manager for a graduate level, academic research lab, a high school and middle school cross country coach, as well as a nature outreach coordinator.

For elementary age students, Sydney is a devout Catholic and helped to establish the young adult group at her home parish in Denver, in her free time. She enjoys long distance running, hiking, camping, snoring, snowboarding, and traveling with her husband and children. Now, like I said, Sydney's the main guest, but I also wanna give Dan a little shout out.

Daniel bonnet is an ICU nurse and an air force reserve airman. Dan loves a good time volleyball and traveling the world. Dan, there's a lot more I could say about you, Dan and I have been friends a while Sydney and I have been friends a while as well. But, uh, without further ado, here's my conversation with Dan and Sidney,

Dan and Sidney. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, Dan, uh, right now, just to paint a picture in everyone's minds, he's holding his son, Dan and Sydney's son. Max max is a little fussy, but he's doing okay right now. So you might hear him. He might chime in into the interview, but it's really, it's good to have you guys here.

We wanted to do actually a four way interview with my wife, Bridget, but it was just too much with all the kids. So this is awesome that both of you are here. Sid. You've always kind of intrigued me. You seem, you know, I've known your story for a while. We've been friends for a while, but it seems, and correct me if I'm wrong.

It seems like you've adjusted pretty well to everything in your family. Like you seem to be doing really well in life. And I'm sure there's struggles and things, but I've always wanted to talk to you more about this because of that. And so I'm excited to, to dive in, but let's start with the basics. So how old were you when your parents got divorced?

Yeah, I was about three years old, two and a half three. I actually don't truthfully know too much of my parents' story and their divorce just cuz I was so young and I never. I never asked too many questions. They never told me much, but I was really young. And then I was also really young when my parents remarried.

They both remarried when I was about six, but they had both met their, uh, respective spouses when, you know, shortly after they divorced. Okay. So to me, you know, my parents divorced was all I ever knew the, the situation as it was with, you know, my remarried parents with my stepmom and my step was just all I ever knew and all I ever grew up with.

Totally. Okay. So there's kind of a, a blank space there. You don't really know, like you said, what went down, but did, do you have any sort of insight into that? Like over the years, have you. Learned much. I have, you know, that was probably one of the hardest parts of my childhood was I didn't know. And then there were slight comments that would be made through my childhood.

And, you know, I think it was, it was hard. It was definitely not an easy situation for them. My parents were both really young when they got married. Mm-hmm they had me and my sister really young. I, I wanna say they were in their early twenties, 20 years old, maybe 21, I think. Okay. But in their divorce, in their separation, it was, I think just a, a pretty bad relationship between the two of them.

It just, you know, kind of was something where they got married young and they just weren't ready yet. But yeah, there was definitely comments that were made through my childhood, from my grandparents and from my mom about my dad or vice versa. So I picked up on a few small things, but I just, I never asked cuz I never wanted to know.

I didn't want that to be my business or my awareness of who my parents were. Sure. It would probably change the way you thought of them or looked at them. That that makes sense. Yeah. And yeah, it's so interesting to talk to people who were really young when it happened or much older when it happened such different experiences.

And I think that's something worth mentioning that not everyone's affected the same way. It really varies. You have some people who are affected, you know, in some ways and other people who are affected in other ways, some people who are deeply affected and really struggle with all that trauma and then other people who are more well adjusted and there's different factors that go into that.

And parents that parents actually play a big role in mitigating a lot of those negative effects. So, um, I'm curious to kind of hear all of that. So growing up that was just normal for you. It's what you knew. How, um, how did you react to the dynamic in your family where. You know, you had your biological mom step biological dad, stepmom.

How was that for you growing up? Both as in your childhood and then into your teens and twenties? Yeah, thankfully I was just really blessed by the situation with my parents. I have an incredible stepmom, an incredible step. They're both an integral part of my life. My stepdad is one of my greatest role models.

He's an incredible man. And, and so I'm really thankful for the way that things unfolded over the years. Mm-hmm um, it's definitely, I, I don't wanna say that by any means to say that it was easy because there's definitely deep seated, you know, emotions, obviously with all of it. And, and I think one of the hardest things, to be honest is that.

I feel so blessed. And so it makes it feel like I shouldn't have the emotions that I have around my parents' divorce, because they really did a good job. Yeah. I mean, they set it up. Well, they never even went through a court system. They just had joint custody and it was just, they had a good enough relationship between my mom and dad that they, they didn't wanna involve a third party.

They just said, you know, we will fairly split your time. So for me, that meant as a kid that I was, I lived out of a suitcase, my entire childhood. I went back and forth. If my dad was off on a Wednesday, I was at my dad's house. If my mom was off on a Thursday, I went to my, so, I mean, I was the kid going to school with literally a suitcase in my hands.

And it was just where I was going after school every day. So I just, I never felt like I had a, a one set place mm-hmm but that being said, I had four amazing parents. And so it just, yeah, it's kind of that dual of, I, I have these emotions. It's still really hard to live this life, but. I love everyone involved, you know, I love my four parents, so yeah.

Yeah. So that was, you know, the good and the bad. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it can sometimes be hard for us to distinguish between those two, like hold the good and the bad in our hands at the same time, because you can, on one hand, admit like this has been really good in terms of, I have these people in my life, these parents who have, you know, sacrificed for me, they've given me so much, they've helped me in a lot of ways, but at the same time, acknowledging, yeah.

I've been harmed too. And it's okay to say both of those. And I think a lot of times we have this, we're like defensive of our parents against ourselves. So I know it's, it's hard for us to even admit that, you know yeah. They, that wasn't right. Yeah. It it's almost like we have this knee jerk reaction to just say, well, they did the best they can.

Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Which, which is okay to say, but just because someone did the best they can doesn't mean that's the way it should have been. And we're not saying that to. Be mean to parents. Do you hate your parents? No, not at all. Okay. I was asked that question because, uh, there's a big misconception, especially with this ministry that maybe we're trying to, so seeds of hate and try to divide the parents from the kids.

And that's not at all. We wanna help heal those relationships. And a lot of times it does require. Uh, digging into these wounds, having difficult conversations and so on. So I'm glad we're talking. So over the years, I'm just curious, were there any, um, as much as you're comfortable sharing, were there any ways that you kind of dealt with the challenges that came up maybe in unhealthy ways?

Like I know for me, um, one of my parents separated when I was 11 years old, it just completely shattered my world. So a different experience and I just did all sorts of things to numb the pain. I acted out. I was very angry, very bitter gun to pornography after a buddy of mine showed it. And that just kind of was a distraction and escape from all the pain and problems in my life.

So I'm just curious for you as much as you're comfortable sharing. Was there anything like. Yeah, truthfully, I don't have very exciting one answer because you know, my mom has said this over the recent years as an adult, now that I'm an internalize and I never thought that of myself until she has recently said that a lot.

And I'm like, yeah, I guess I really am. So, I mean, that's, it, I'm a, I'm a thinker, I'm an internalized, but I really, I didn't, I didn't find any way to cope because I didn't feel like I needed it. Yeah. And I, and so. Emotionally, it came out in different ways, you know, and we'll, I'm sure get into that, how it's come out in my marriage emotionally and, and in that way, but truthfully, I didn't, I, I didn't ever feel like I was harmed in any way to the point where I needed to do something about it.

And maybe it would've helped me, honestly, maybe it would've helped the emotions I feel about it today, but I just kind of went all my life thinking like, okay, this is how it is. And if I feel emotional about it, then I'll just cry to myself. And that's kind of just how I have to cope. Yeah. Cause this is how my life is and it's what I gotta do.

Yeah. Yeah. And you you've always been that type of person as long as I've known you. It's just kind of like, all right, this is, this is life. We just gotta do it. Like , there's no use like crying over it or, you know, or maybe letting other people know, even if you're crying in your room or out of the site, but no, that makes a lot of sense.

And kind of going back to what I said before, parents play a huge role, um, if parents do their best to, um, and, and by best, I mean like an adequate job of loving their children and helping them deal with that, it can really, really help. Like there's studies that show that if a child who comes from a broken family has a, a good relationship with one or both parents, they're statistically much less likely to struggle with loneliness, depression, anxiety.

And so it's really helpful. And sounds like you benefited from some of that, which is, which is awesome. Dan, I wanted to ask you a question because you know, you have known Sydney since you guys were. What you guys were in high school or was it even before high school? Yeah, I think we met when we were 15.

I think it was like 2009 spring of 2009. We met. Okay. So you guys were young and, uh, Let's go into that story just a little bit, and then we can kind of backtrack to effect. Sure. Just, uh, the short and sweet of it is. So we met at a restaurant. It was my first job I was working as a bus boy and Sydney had already had like 10 jobs by then, cuz she's hardworking and comes from a very hardworking family.

So German. Yeah, exactly. She's very German and they're hardworking. And I think that goes back to kind of how she internalized a lot of this where it's like, yeah, this is how it is. This is how we deal with it. We don't complain. You get what you get, you know, pitch a fit. And that's pretty much kind of how city roles.

So going back to how we met. So we met when we were younger and I mean too young to date in my parents' mind, but yeah, it's kinda like the old fashioned story, like, oh, you don't know what love is. It's too young. And like, yeah, we probably were super young, but we learned to love each other. And so we started dating in 2010.

Okay. And then. Got married in 2016. Cool. So yeah, started dating in high school, went to college and then got married a year outta college, a year and a half for Sydney. Yeah. And that's kind of the short and sweet story. Cool. I remember, uh, we were studying abroad in Austria. You guys remember this story?

This was really before I knew you guys at all. I knew you separately, I guess. Uh, I think Dan, I knew you a little bit better cuz we lived in a similar spot and in our dorm and uh, you guys were like in my room with my roommates, we were all hanging out and I saw like the way you were interacting. And I told one of my roommates later, I think.

I think Dan likes Sydney or Sydney likes Dan, one of the two . I was like, so insightful. Joey's way behind the ball. No, let alone. You've been getting foot we've dating for years. Yeah. I always love that story that cracks me up. And it's also, you know, a good point to make, because I feel like just in my personality too, when we, so I, I transferred to Franciscan university.

I studied for a year at the university of South Carolina first. Okay. Um, and I was a year ahead of Daniel, so he, you know, I, I transferred the year that he started his freshman year. Okay. Yeah. And it's funny because I remember when I was transferring and I said, okay, well, here's how it's gonna be. If we're gonna go to the same school, I'm gonna have my friends.

You're gonna have your friends. We're not gonna be like at each other's hip all the time. I want us to live our own lives. And so, yeah, it, it's kind of funny cuz that's just my personality a little bit, but you know, it's a little bit of a good segue because I think that a lot of that is probably rooted in mind, not wanting to be dependent on anyone because it was always frightening.

What was frightening about it? just that it didn't seem guaranteed. Like you can fall in love with somebody, but it might come and go, you know, you never know. So at that point we had been dating for two or three years, but, you know, and, and at that point, Daniel had already kind of communicated to me in high school that like, I'm gonna marry you one day.

And, you know, it was kind of a, it seemed like a joking thing when he said that as a little high schooler , but I, uh, I, I just, you know, it didn't really hold weight to me necessarily, cuz I was like, okay, well when we go to college, things could be different. We might be different people. So let's not hold onto this.

Like it's steadfast. Yeah. And maybe that is, you know, I never really thought about it until our marriage, but maybe it is rooted in the way I grew. Yeah. And I, I think that's, um, a lot of, for a lot of us deal with that, we just have that fear of repeating what happened in our parents' marriage. That kind of realizing that well, at any point, my spouse could leave me and that's a fear I still have to this day.

It's something that I've like worked through a lot and it's very minimal now, but it's still in the back of my head, which is hard, but yeah, a lot of us feel that and we'd rather, you know, not it too attached to involved. Yeah. When I had met Sidney, I mean, she pretty much told me she's like, I'm not gonna get married.

Tell me the least 27 until I've lived and done a lot of things that I want to do because that's kind of, yeah, exactly. I, a little bit afraid. I don't wanna say afraid of commitment, but definitely hesitant. I was definitely the one pulling the like, Hey, we should, I really wanna stay toge you know, definitely pulling whenever there were hard times.

Definitely grew up in a little bit of a different situation in my family. I was like very anchored in terms of like, you make a decision and you stay with somebody and there is that, is it? Yeah. Like, so in the same way that Sydney kind of lives her life. Matter of fact, in so many other ways, one of the only ways I live my life matter of fact, was like, if you commit to somebody, if you date somebody, then you think about marrying them.

And if you marry them, you bet you, you are not going to get separated from them. Yeah. So it was kind of a, and Cindy and I have talked about this, but just kind of a divorce or separation really wasn't in the vocabulary when I was growing up. Now, a lot of times I still saw my, you know, and my, my parents fought a lot and just like any other couple, but mm-hmm , it was always at the end of every fight.

I can almost remember my parents. Coming up to me seeing that I was upset if they fought or were in a they're like, listen, you know, that we love each other and you know, that we would never leave each other. Mm-hmm . And so that was kind of like very, I remember that like a specific that was very young. I can remember my parents saying that, so, wow.

I think you talk about the seeds. And so like, that was definitely just in the back of my mind, like, yeah, there is no second chance. There's no, Separation, like we're going all the way pretty much, no matter what happens. Wow. So, no, that's beautiful. So that's a very, very different background and your parents are still married to this day and you know, like you said, not a perfect marriage, but a beautiful example of, of what you yeah.

What you grew up with. Yeah. And I was just gonna chime in there, you know, from my side of things, you know, I, I hate to admit it, but I'll, I'll be the first to admit that like, even in our arguments, as a married couple, I'm kind of, I hate that my mind, the first place it goes is this is just too hard. Like mm-hmm we should just get out of this.

Yeah. You know, and Daniel, Daniel knows that well of me, but, but that that's just to me where he said divorce is not in his vocabulary. Like to me, it's, it's very much a Mo vocabulary, not even just in my parents and in my childhood, but there is one relationship in my whole extended family that has stayed together.

Wow. And it's my mom's mom, but every other grandparent, everyone is divorced. Aunts, uncles, uncles, aunts. Yeah. Everyone. And even, you know, The vocabulary. My parents use is very much like when I've seen other relationships in my family that have struggled, my parents are the first to say like, oh, they're really struggling.

I don't know if they're gonna make it. And so that's just, what I've always grown up with was, was that vocabulary was very prominent. Yeah. It's like, there's this off ramp that you can take. And it's like always available. And that's, I think one of the problems in our culture right now is that we, we see the divorce as a solution to problems in marriage.

And often like one of the first solutions, it shocks people to say that, but it that's absolutely true. Like so many people, a knee jerk reaction is like, You should probably get divorced. It's not gonna work out like, oh, you know, you got in an argument, you should probably get divorced. It's not gonna work out.

Your reaction is actually really normal. I, I, you probably know that, but it's really normal for people like us. Cuz sometimes we have these feelings or reactions to things and we think we're like freaks, but that's not actually the case. It's like given what we've been through, it's an appropriate response.

And uh, that's freeing, I've found that freeing and a lot of the people I've talked through through this nonprofit, through this ministry have found that freeing as well. So, but yeah, that whole idea of divorce being contagious, being something that, um, it's like a model that's set for you and it's like you said, always an option.

So I could see how you would be more sensitive to that and afraid of that. That makes so much sense. I want to go back to Dan, how did you see. The family dynamic with Sydney through the high school years and the college, and even, you know, in your twenties, how did you see all of that affect her, her parents' divorce and everything?

Yeah. So, I mean, first off when I met Sydney, in terms of, she wasn't kidding with like packing out of her, you know, living out of a suitcase or living out of a bag and yeah, this is probably terrible to say, but right now it comes in great handy, cuz she is so hyper efficient with packing and you better believe that when we took this trip here, when we're going anywhere, she's like everyone's packed already.

Got it done. And I'm like, thank you. Meanwhile, I'm literally struggling to pack my own single bag an hour before we're leaving. And she is the difference between an Italian and a German. Oh yeah. And exactly that as well. Yeah. Organization versus free spirit. And anyway, So, yeah, just kind of growing up and seeing like, with Sydney's case again, like her parents were always got along so well and they were always, so it was different because she, she, yeah.

And like everything she said, her parents got along and since they got divorced so young, but when I met her, no, yeah, she was mostly just back and forth. Definitely. Afraid of commitment. That was probably the biggest thing in terms of like, but we were young, you know, I could understand that. Sure. But definitely I think, I remember we got into an argument like early on when we first started dating and it was like very kind of scary how she was like, that's it.

And I was like, wait, this is just kind one argument. She's like, I don't wanna get hurt. I've seen what this ha I've seen what happens here. I don't want this to happen to me as well. It's happened to everyone in my family. I'm gonna get out before we get too deep into this. And that was definitely something that kind of hurt me, cuz I was like, wow, she's very, kind of got a wall up.

And like I get it. She doesn't wanna be hurt. And the only way that I can kind of combat that is just showing UN unwavering commitment and unwavering. Just kind of like, Nope, we're gonna stay together. It's okay. We'll get through this. Totally. Um, obviously that gets harder and harder. The longer you date, the longer you stay together.

And then once you get married, that's like that we've we will, tomorrow is our five year anniversary. So we will have been married for five years tomorrow. Wow. I remember the wedding. It was a, it was a fun wedding. Yeah. Best party ever. so, um, shout out to everyone at the wedding. Yeah. Anybody, but it was awesome.

So just kind of that day, it was honestly, it was a beautiful and incredible day, but I remember being like, definitely like, this is it. This is the biggest test. Like if Sydney and I go through this, that is going, this is gonna be the ultimate commitment and unwavering tests. So for me, what I saw to answer your question though, overall was just like that very hesitant, like, Nope, not gonna get married till I'm 27.

It's happened to everyone else in my family. And I'm like, well, my grandparents stayed together. I, I had a very like opposite, like, yeah, I've got some aunts and uncles that got divorced, but nearly everyone stayed together. So I was like, if you see me through this, we'll make it through like, just trust me.

Yeah. And she was kind of like on the other side of like, I really am hesitant to trust you. Mm-hmm so it was a trust thing, a commitment thing, but. Once Sydney makes her mind up with so many other things. When she sticks her mind to something, she gets it done. Mm-hmm . So I knew that that would overtake some of those commitment and anxieties with all that.

Totally. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. There's this one researcher who says that, um, when it comes to relationships in marriage, everyone has some level of fear. Everyone faces challenges, but people who come from intact families where they've seen, you know, at least a good example of what marriage should be like.

Uh, they have that example to fall back on and it gives them confidence. It gives them courage to push on people like us who come from broken families. We feel those similar, maybe more intense fears, emotions, challenges, but we don't have anything to fall back on. We've seen a really broken model, which leaves us feeling more anxious and afraid.

Typically, you know, everyone's experience is perhaps different, but. That's why I can totally see what you guys are saying. Like you came from one background, so you came from another background. Yeah. It sounds super interesting and challenging to kind of mesh those together. I wanna keep going down this path unless you had anything you wanted to say to that.

Yeah. So I wanna keep going down this path of relationships and transition into talking about your marriage as much as you're comfortable. You know what I need to tell us everything unless you want to I'm, I'm an open book, you know, me, Joey. I'm pretty much an open book. Oh yeah. Yeah. So yeah. What have been some of the challenges that you would likely attribute to, you know, coming from a broken family or, or not?

What, what are some of the challenges that you guys have faced? Yeah, I think the biggest one is, you know, as we were just discussing. Every marriage has arguments. Many of them, I'm not saying don't get married, but there's always gonna be arguments in marriage. So we definitely fight a good bit. And it always to me comes to, you know, like, like I had previously said, just this is too hard.

Like maybe this wasn't wasn't right. So I think my thought process is, is definitely the most challenging thing that we face in our marriage. The next, just cuz it's on the forefront for me would be, you know, as it's early December, right now we're approaching Christmas mm-hmm and holidays are really, really hard for me.

Mm. Um, they always were growing up. It was always, you know, a back and forth kind of thing. Like we were here for these hours here for these hours. And it was just so divvied up. Mm-hmm . And so now you add not only, you know, most marriages would have two families mixed in now we have three cuz we have my mom's side, my dad's side and his parents' side.

Yeah. So trying to navigate that has been not only challenging, but to me it's like, this is even worse than it was when I was a kid. You know, I, it was enough for me to split it between two. I thought I was gonna get married and have my own family and now splitting it between three is, is really hard. And it honestly makes a lot of arguments between Daniel and I during the holidays.

Yeah. It brings tension, brings drama. It can totally relate. But yeah. Dan, if you had any thoughts on that love day. Yeah. I mean, you talk about in terms of. Trying to get family together and trying to be giving everyone equal time, um, you know, marrying into a family that has two families already, you know?

Yeah. My side of the family kind of sees it as, okay, you've got it's 50, 50 it's our family gets 50% and then Sydney's two families. They get 25 and 25. Mm. And it is tough because I'm almost immediately like, that's not, it's, it's a third, a third, a third. It's gotta be. And they're like, well, we're not the ones who got separated.

Why are we getting punished for that? I was like, mom and dad, I chose to marry Sydney because I love her more than anything in the world. And I chose to go into a family that has two families. So at that point we need to separate it into a third, a third, a third, and try to make it as equal as possible.

But at the end of the day, I mean, even Sydney and I have been married for five years and it's like, at the end of the day, we are still the bonnets and there will come a time when it's just gonna be. In turn it's, it's tough with holidays. Yes. Just like we are the only ones and we're gonna spend time with our family.

Yeah. Wow. I never, yeah. I never heard that ratio like of the 25, 20 or 25, 25 50 versus the a third each. Um, but that makes someone sense. And we've, we've experienced that too. When we typically go home to Chicago, it's, we're visiting typically staying with my mom. And so my dad, we don't see him as much, but now that we have a baby, now that we have Lucy, our time is even more valuable to them.

Like they wanna spend time with their grandchild, which totally makes sense. And I'm sure you guys see that too. Yeah. So, you know, whereas in the past, maybe it wasn't as big of a deal if we didn't spend equal time with mom and dad, um, now it's becoming a bigger deal and even the first trip we took there, people were unhappy.

yeah. So it's hard. It's really hard to, to navigate that. Has there on kind of the positive side, has there been anything that you've learned that has made navigating those holidays easier, better? I wish I could say yes. No, that's okay. Yeah. We're still, we're still figuring it out five years married. Yeah.

This will be our, I guess, fifth Christmas together. Okay. As a married couple. And um, and yeah, no, it's still really hard. Recently got into a conversation actually with my mom. We we're kind of jumping around a lot right now. We're in the midst of a, a big move for Daniel joining the air force and trying to navigate that.

But that being said, we've been living with my mom for the past two months. And then, um, recently just moved back up to my dad's house. Okay. Yep. And got into a conversation with my mom where she expressed how offended she was with the way that we've split up our time. Mm-hmm and it. Really shocking to me to have her say that I, you know, she was really justified in saying that because of the way we have divvied up, it's been a challenge, like we just said, but yeah, I was pretty taken aback to hear that mostly because, you know, my thought was, I didn't, I didn't wish this.

Like, I don't want to have to be the one to choose where I'm divvying up my time. So in answer to your question, no, we haven't figured out an easy way to navigate that at all. We're still working on it and that's definitely a really big challenge in our marriage right now. Yeah. Okay. No, that makes sense.

And thanks to your honesty, cuz I think that's where a lot of people are at and what I've observed in my life and the lives of the people that I talk to is that. Some years are better, other years are worse. And so, yeah, I wish I could say some years are better. I've hated it every year. So far.

increasingly worse. It's been increasingly worse. Yeah. And you know, not to say there's no hope cuz we're, we're gonna work on it. We're gonna figure it out. And like Daniel said, we're gonna establish ourselves as our own little family. Now with three kids, you know, eventually it'll come to a point where we are just our own entity.

And so that's really what I think we have to hold steadfast to is, is who we are as a young couple and as a, you know, growing couple together. Yeah. I think balancing any holiday or. Birthday or celebration graduation when Sydney walked down the aisle, her mom and her dad. Um, so our biological mom and dad were on either in, in both of her hands on her.

Right. And her left hand. Okay. Yeah. And her stepparents were actually just behind them. And I think it was a good symbolization of how well they get along and how well, like Sydney said, they were able to cooperate with each other and super nice. And they've hung out multiple times at graduations and things like that.

There's still some hesitancy when it comes to, you know, nobody wants to spend a lot of time with the person that they divorced. Obviously I can understand that, but I think just going back to the holidays and birthdays, and it's been. It it's been a learn. I mean, I don't wanna say tough cuz I could never understand what Sydney's gone through, but a lot of it is a learning experience for me the day that I married Sydney and her mom and dad walked down the aisle and there were two extra people mm-hmm who I thought it was a very symbolic kind of passage into, we are all family now.

Exactly. Like I was talking about with the percentages and we were all family now. And so yeah, when it's Rosemary's fourth birthday, she's gonna get three birthday parties. She's gonna get my mom and dad. She's gonna, and there was a point, I think Sidney was gonna say something like, I need to watch what I say in certain.

Scenarios. Hmm. Yeah. So we just celebrated Rosemary's fourth birthday last week. So that just happened. And that conversation just happened where Daniel said something to my dad about, oh gosh, she's already had so many birthday parties and gotten so many presents. We've done this with every parent so far.

And I didn't, I didn't say with every parent who are, but I, I definitely was like, geez, another birthday party. And like, it was totally insensitive because yeah, but it's kind of funny cuz you. Like I said, and like I talked about my childhood growing up, I'm an internalized and I just like, I, I just handled things and I just did what I was told.

And it was like, okay, we just opened Christmas presents all morning long, but now we're at another house opening Christmas presents again. And for a kid, that's a dream. Yeah. You know, two Christmases, but you know, it's funny now seeing Daniel kind of go through that process of growing into that reality now as an adult, whereas I experienced it as a kid.

And so to me, I have filters where I'm like, you just don't say certain things. Mm. And maybe you do, maybe you should say certain things, but I just I'm like, Nope, this that's not appropriate in, in this context. But yeah, it is funny cuz I, I just grew up with two of everything, always two birthday parties, two Christmases, two, um, you know, whatever it was, it was.

You just did you did double. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And that there's totally some positive aspects to that, but, um, I know what I typically hear is people will throw that around is like, see the divorce isn't that bad. Like everyone's happier. Yeah. And I know that's not what you're saying, but I think it's just worth mentioning for everyone listening, just so they don't misunderstand us.

But, um, yeah, for a kid that is, uh, I remember when my parents first separated like that Christmas, um, I think my dad was trying to like overcompensate and he just like bought us. Like at that time it was like PS two and just like all these games. And it was that aspect of, it was like, okay, this is kind of fun.

This is cool. But then deeper down. And I was like, this sucks. Like, this is really not the way I wish it was. But like you said, it's just the hand that we're dealt and we have to deal with it. So I want to go to, yeah, you brought up the kids, so let's just go there for a second. Have you thought about. Kind of Rosie's perspective on, and I mean, all your kids, but on her grandparents.

And have you had any conversations? I know she's so young now at four, but have you had any conversations like that or have you thought ahead to what you might say? Yeah. So to the first part of that, We actually recently, Rosemary, you know, we're, since we're bouncing around living with various family for now, she recently, you know, she's starting to learn like who is whose mom, you know, to her.

I am her mom. So to think of me having a mom is very like what . Yeah. Um, but so she's starting to ask those questions and it's, it's really sweet. You know, recently she asked that about my stepmom. She said, wait, but if only is your mom, then who are you? And so. She's definitely starting to understand that a little better and yeah.

And ask those questions and yeah, we do have to start thinking about how we're gonna answer those questions for her. Thankfully. So far, it's been just an over abundance of love because she has so many grandparents and family members that all love her. And, and so she's, you know, really sweet about just enjoying all of that time with everyone and, and who everyone means to, you know, what they mean to her.

Mm-hmm but in terms of answering those questions, it it's gonna be tough because, you know, especially for me, when, when Dan and I do get in those fights and we have those, those conversations, you know, for me, of course, my first thought is my kids. , you know, I guess my prayer for everyone who's experienced divorce is that that'll be the same for them because you think of your kids and you think of what it's done to you emotionally.

Mm-hmm , you know what it's done to me and what I don't wanna do to my kids ever. Yeah. So I think that's, they are a huge factor in what is gonna like keep our marriage moving forward, always because I don't wish this upon anyone. Yeah. Well, I think Joey probably has mentioned this in his other podcast as well, but just in terms of the fine line of staying together, if you're in a relationship that's struggling really badly and you have kids and just, yeah.

Staying together for the kids. Right. Is that like a blink 180 2 song or something? something , it's like about like, I think there's a, a line, you know, when of unhealthiness, like arguments and difficulties and then like, you obviously don't want to stay in an abusive relationship together if you have kids just to keep them, because that would do even more damage.

Yeah. To see mom and dad being abusive to each other. Mm-hmm , that's way worse than them being separated. Right. But in terms of just are, you know, there's there's and obviously, although I got a degree in psychology, I'm no psychologist, but when I learn and think about childhood development and just what a divorce does to, to the child's mind and to a kid, uh, growing up, like there is that fine line where I'm myself.

Sometimes even now, if things get bad enough, are we gonna stay together just for the kids? And where is that line for? I know I'm going off on a different track. No, no, this is very relevant. Keep going. Right. It's like, are we staying together for the kids? If Rosie and we're fighting in the car and Rosie's like, stop, stop, stop.

And I'm like, oh, it just kills me. Like we're raising our voices at each other. And my three year old in the back is like, mom and dad, stop. I hate it when you fight. And I was like, oh man, like, yeah. So, you know, there is that, that fine line, but it's also okay. If your kids see you fight. Yeah. You know, that's a normal thing.

I saw my parents fight and lots of people do, but it's that line of like, where things get harmful when kids can really get scarred. Mm-hmm . If they see you guys fighting in a. Super abusive way or anything like that. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, that's a great point. And this is a hard thing to talk about.

This is a very nuanced conversation when, with the topic that you just brought up, like, yeah, you should fight for your marriage, but where's the line where you need to like protect yourself for your kids. So what we talk about and what the, you know, for any Catholics listening, what the catechism says in can law that's church law.

If you're not familiar, basically it, that divorce is traumatic. It's brings disorder into the world. It's a very bad thing, especially for the kids, but there might be situations where it's a necessity because of abuse or threat of death or violence, something like that. And so in that situ. it should be looked at as a means as a legal maneuver to offer protection.

And it should never be used as like, well, I just wanna quit. It should be used only as like, I need to protect myself and my kids. And so that's and the church law, Ken law says that you separation might actually be a step in the direction of healing, the marriage. It's not ideal that you would go through that, especially for the sake of your kids, because that could be the separation itself can be traumatic, but sometimes it's necessary.

And so the hope and the goal is always to heal the marriage and bring the family back together. Now, is that always realistic? No, but then we get into the much bigger topic of, is marriage, just a contract? Is it a piece of paper or is there something more deep on a human level, on even a spiritual level where you make this vow and you're bonded to this person for life?

I. And if that's the case, which I believe it is, then marriage is more than just a civil contract. And so even if that civil contract were to be broken as a legal maneuver to offer protection, there's still the vows that you promised to your spouse, which it's a tough thing to talk about. It really is, but that, that's the way that we look at it.

So to anyone listening right now who maybe, you know, someone, or perhaps you are in an abusive situation, what we would always say is like, get to safety, get to safety, and that if that involves leaving your spouse, you do that. But thankfully just to offer a little more insight, cuz this often comes up, especially with this ministry, just offer a little more insight into that.

One of the leading researchers on the effects of divorce on the children, uh, has said that roughly 30% of divorces are actually, and this was years ago, 30% of divorces are actually those high conflict situations. So it might have gone up a little bit, but 70% are low conflict. Meaning there wasn't abuse.

There wasn't like a ton of, you know, overt fighting, just lots of violence or. Drama at home, 70% is situations where, you know, the couple has problems, but they could work through them if they chose and not to say, it's not hard, it's absolutely hard. But about 70% of, of those divorces, uh, could, could be worked through.

And that number might have gone up quite a bit because we've normalized divorce, uh, so much in our culture that, uh, it's a much easier thing to do now. And for the people who are in abusive situations, that's a helpful thing for people who need. Encouragement to stick with their wedding vows, to stick with their marriage, to work through the issues, to do whatever's necessary to get through that.

That's a bad thing. So it's very nuanced. There's like a lot to talk about here. So yeah. Any thoughts on that? Yeah. A couple comments on that, you know, first for us, when you talk about our vows and our wedding day, something that I frequently think back to, and Daniel's heard me say this a lot, but I really hold tight to what our, the priest who married us said in his homily during our wedding.

And he actually. You know, for those of you who aren't familiar with the Catholic church, usually priests can't get married, but there is a certain case where there are some priests, very few priests, but there are some priests who have been married. And so our priest was actually one of them. And so hearing it from his perspective is really interesting cuz he, you know, he stands for, you know, as a father of the Catholic church, but also as a father to his biological children.

Yeah. And, and he said in his homily to us, you know, today you are getting married because you love each other. But from now on love each other because you are married mm-hmm . And so I hold to that a lot. You know, when you talk about those, those cases of marriage where it's just low conflict or, you know, they've fallen outta love or the fights have TA overtaken their love, you know, I think that's one thing that's really important to hold tight.

Two mm-hmm mm-hmm is, you know what you stood. The day you made those vows and, and I definitely can't speak too much to the cases of high conflict sure. Situations, because it's just not something that I've ever experienced or am familiar with. Thanks to God for that. Yeah. And I'm sure that that's very challenging to maneuver, um, and to, to face for many but one thing to add to that is I, I think one way that I have kind of grown to cope with, you know, as we go back to the definition of, you know, bringing up the, the word divorce in your marriage.

One thing that I have really tried to separate out is the difference of separation and divorce. Yeah. You know, as a faithful Catholic, I, I really don't wish to stand for divorce. Mm-hmm um, except for in certain situations like we talked about, but, you know, I. The old saying separation makes the heart grow fonder, whether it's true or not, maybe not always, but you know, and Daniel and I have thankfully never faced this, but I try and just separate those two words out where maybe sometimes there's situations, if it is high conflict, where separation is essential, it's necessary to recover the situation.

And then the, the prayer moving forward was be that you still get back together, your divorce, your marriage hasn't, hasn't been broken, you know, you're still married, but maybe that, that time is necessary to be a part. So mm-hmm yeah, that's just kind of, I think a way of coping for me is I don't want to bring divorce into our marriage ever, but if it ever did come up, separation might be important first.

Sure. And I think that's something that our society really overlooks a lot. Yeah. And kind of skip that step no, a hundred percent. And the, the intention behind a divorce is very telling to some people, you know, like in the case of abuse, like we're talking about, they're doing it as a mean to protection.

Right. And, and there's kind of, there's two legal ways. You could go, at least in the United States, it might be different around the world, but there's, um, a divorce or there's a legal separation. And I, I couldn't tell you no lawyer. Couldn't tell you all the legal differences there, but one is more, the divorce is more final.

The legal separation is more of like an intermediate step. Yeah. It's, uh, it can be a step in the right direction to hopefully heal the marriage. Like I know of one couple right now, the husband's an alcoholic and he's just gotten down really bad path. And the wife is like, just genuinely wants to him to heal, get his act together, them to be a family.

Again, they have kids. It's really sad situation. Um, but he hasn't done that. And so she had to go the route of a legal separation. She didn't want to do the divorce because she believes in the, in marriage and it being lifelong. Um, but she can't be in that situation. So sometimes you have to make those hard decisions.

Yeah. Contrasting that with someone who, you know, might say, well, I've just fallen out of love. And I just want to get out of this and start over again. Those are ver two very different things. And that's the first case it's like, yes, that's understandable. The second case. It's, that's where we would push back and say, no, like fight for your marriage.

There's there's so much good that can come out of it, even if you have to fight for years to, to bring that good into your marriage. So yeah. Does that make sense with the two differences? Yeah, definitely. And you know, not to compare and contrast two marriages, but when I look at my parents versus my own marriage, thankfully, you know, I guess my response to some would be just that marriage is always gonna be hard.

I think, you know, I haven't talked with too many people about their encounters with marriage and their, you know, what they, what they deal with. But to me, I guess that's my perspective is that it's always gonna be hard. And for Daniel and I, we, there was nothing. In our dating life that would've indicated that our marriage wouldn't be great.

Yeah. Um, you know, we had a really great relationship dating. We were best friends. We still are in many ways beautiful, but it's, it's taken a, you know, it's different than it was when we were dating. Sure. Um, there's a lot more pressure. There's a lot more discussions to be had. And so it takes your best friend relationship to a, a different kind of level.

But yeah, for us, like we had a great intro into our wedding day. Um, so that being said. You know, having had that, versus when I look at my parents' relationship and how they didn't really have that, they were young, you know, for them, to my knowledge, they got married because they both wanted to be outta their parents' house.

They both wanted to be independent on their own. And the only way to really do that at their age was let's just get married, independent on each other. Sure. They didn't know each other too long. They were kind of a, an unexpected couple in college, very, or in high school, they were very different. And so looking at them and seeing how, how the, their marriage, you know, went about and ended mm-hmm is just kind of a Testament to me that it's always gonna be hard.

So, you know, even if you're best friends first, even if you have everything is rock solid going in, it's gonna be hard. And, and so, yeah, I think that's just something that I try to keep in perspective is okay. You know, even if I say that I wanna just start a new with somebody else, it's gonna be hard again.

Yep. Especially because. You know, Dan and I have the history that we have together that is such a rock for us. And, you know, you look at what your life could be like, and, you know, you have to ask yourself, is it really better? You know, is, is what that does to your children is what that does to yourself and your, your emotions.

Um, having a, especially having already grown up with divorce mm-hmm and then having to experience the emotions of that in a much more even personal level on your own. So again, of course, this is only for those cases where it's, it seems like an easy out versus it being a, a much more. High conflict situation.

Yeah. A necessity to protect people. Yeah. Max, you could hear max in the back. Hey, Hey buddy. No. So that makes so much sense. And, uh, there's this quote, I, I can't remember the whole thing, but it basically goes like, choose your heart. Marriage is hard. Divorce is hard. Choose your hard. And it goes through like this whole litany of different things that are hard and you just have to choose which, which hard do you want to go with.

And so, uh, it, I, I think it's a good reminder. And one of the essential ingredients of having a really healthy marriage is, uh, good expectations. And if you go into it thinking it's gonna be a fairytale, you're gonna be very shocked to notice that it's not and you're gonna have conflict. And if you think you're never gonna fight, um, you're gonna be shocked and that's gonna lead you to doubt, like, man, maybe I married the wrong person, or, you know, maybe I shouldn't have even gone down this marriage path at all with anyone.

So, no, I think it's a great reminder. And the fact that, uh, when you get divorced and get remarried, your divorce rate is much higher because I think people are fooled by that thinking like, no, it'll be so much different. And not to say there's some people who have a second marriage, that's like very happy.

They're faithful and things go well. Um, so there are those cases, but statistically, the majority of people, it just repeats itself, which is I think very telling of what could happen. Mm-hmm so going to kind of, some of the struggles we've, uh, had, cuz I don't want you to be the only one sharing. Uh, it's certainly been, even in our dating relationship, it's been a.

Difficult because I was always really afraid of love and marriage and vulnerability. Like even when we were in Austria and you know, I was starting a relationship there, I was just terrified of that. I didn't really know how to go about it all, to be honest with you. And, uh, there's so much fear, so much fear, so much anxiety I wrestled with so much before I would even get to the point of like asking her to be in a relationship with me.

And no one could tell that unless I told them it was, you know, I kept a good exterior kind of like you and just dealt with it. But, um, man, it was so hard and then fast forwarding to met my now wife bridged in our dating relationship. It was always difficult for me to just be vulnerable and trust. I like you and pretty fiercely independent.

And a lot of that I think is just a protection mechanism. Just like, well, what if you leave me? I need to, you know, make sure to keep my autonomy. To an unhealthy level. And, um, and it certainly is a balance, you know, there are other people on the other end of the spectrum who have an over reliance on each other to where it becomes this enmeshed unhealthy relationship.

But on the other end of the spectrum, you know, you have people who are so fiercely independent, it's almost like they do nothing for each other. So we've tried to hit that balance, but it's been hard. And so, uh, another fear of mine, like I mentioned before is just that maybe one day bridge would just leave me cuz to me as a kid, that's kind of what happened with my parents.

It was just like, I, my parents didn't have a perfect marriage. They certainly fought, there were problems there. And we kind of knew that I was kids, but they were together and that was good. And then out of the blue, it seemed to me, I later have learned more of the details. Um, they just. Broke apart. And I was like, what?

Like, how could that happen? And as an 11 year old boy, uh, that just like imprinted this idea in me that at any point, anything could fall apart. And that's a difficult thing to bring into a marriage because what I've learned too is we almost had this subconscious expectation that our spouse will leave us or that the marriage will end.

And we act off of that expectation, which then contributes to it actually becoming a reality mm-hmm so you have this like cycle that we have to fight through. So it definitely complicated, but, uh, for us it's been, it's been challenging. And I think at times that can just be emotionally distant in my marriage, whether it's all, you know, related to what happened to my family or not, that can be talked about and debated certainly a lot of it is.

And, uh, I've had to be very conscious and work through that and we go to counseling and do all that good stuff. So, yeah. Um, you guys aren't alone and, uh, we certainly have our arguments and sometimes they're handled very well resolved. Well, other times they're not other times it ticks days or, you know, longer to really, uh, resolve a situation.

But one of the things we've always tried to do, especially now that we have our daughter, Lucy, Is to resolve it. And she's like you said before, the kids are so much more motivating. It's like, I remember I was interviewing Jason Everett and we were talking about people who, you know, just feel tempted to cheat on their spouse.

Cause that's a real thing. And um, one of the things he said is like, yeah, once you have kids, you know, you might feel like, gosh, like, you know, really angry at your spouse. Like I could cheat on you right now, but I can never cheat on my kid. And so I think it's really beautiful and it kind of shows what family life is meant to look like.

Not that everyone could have kids, but I think there is that it's more permanence once you have the kids in the family in an extra level of motivation. Yeah. That's really sweet story. And I was gonna go back, you know, to what Daniel said about Rosemary, has she makes comments about, you know, please don't fight or she'll say sweet things.

Like, you know, you just have to say, sorry, and dad, you have to forgive her. And you know, she kind of coaches us also on the things that we coach her on. So it's practice what you preach. You know, I think the question that that poses is like you just shared with your childhood, you know, you don't wanna set a facade for your children.

I recently read about blessed Jerome LA June is someone that I really love. I hope that he becomes a Saint one day. We just named our, our third son after him and was a French doctor. He was a French doctor. He, uh, discovered the, the cause of down syndrome, which is why we named our son after him. Cuz our second son has down syndrome.

That's right. But anyways, he, he was an awesome guy. He has a, a book about him that I was reading and his daughter wrote it. And she says that she never saw her parents fight, you know, mm-hmm which maybe they had a really blessed marriage where they just, they didn't very often, but maybe that's naive to say maybe they did.

And they just didn't expose their kids to that. So I think the question it poses, you know, like I was saying is you don't wanna lead your kids on to think that arguments don't happen. Mm-hmm I think more importantly, you wanna teach them that they do and that they can be overcome. Mm. Yeah. But at the same time, you know, I think a big thing for us, and I'm not very good at those.

You can say that too, but is, is showing your kids both sides because my love language is by no means physical touch , you know, the German in me, I guess, is very, just put up a wall and stand straight um, just kidding. Germans are great. I love them. she's right. but, but to me, you know, when you fight, you know, Daniel is the first to always end it in.

Let's just hug. and, and I think that's important for your kids to see too is affection. And is you showing them that it's okay to fight, but you have to overcome and you have to forgive each other. And, you know, I think it kind of circles me not to go on a totally different topic, but it circles me to one of the big things that I've always said to Daniel to try and teach him or show him, you know, how it really feels to be a child of, of divorced parents.

But it really hit me, I think the first time being exposed to his parents when I walked in the door one day and I just saw them, you know, his dad walked home from work and gave his mom a hug and a kiss. Hmm. And I think that's the first time it really hit me was when I saw that. And I was like, I have never seen that in my life.

Mm-hmm , I've never seen my parents walk in the door and hug and kiss each other. Mm. And so that's really hard, you know, I've seen that with my stepparents, which again, beautiful relationships, beautiful people, but just that it kind of just hit me like a jab when I was like, I have, I would. I would love to just see my parents walk in the door and hug and kiss each other.

And so for, for those who have kids and, you know, for those who maybe aren't married, you know, if you're in high school or whatever, you aspire to be a, a mom or dad and have kids and, you know, be a spouse is just keep the affection, you know, show your kids that it's okay to have arguments, but you have to love each other still.

Mm, wow. That's beautiful. And I love that desire that you had for that. I think that's what we all ultimately want. And I think part of the reason this whole thing is so painful is that it's a desire that's often Mo most often not gonna be fulfilled. Like I remember my siblings and I saying something like that, and there was some drama going on at home.

And, uh, one of us said, like, we just want our family to be together to be whole, I forget which siblings said that, but it just like destroyed me, like, and I, wasn't a really emotional guy and. High school beginning of college, but that, that was like a stung. It was like, yeah, that would be really great. So I definitely know that experience, so many good things.

Kind of switching gears maybe a little bit. What did you maybe need from your parents that they weren't aware of all those years? Uh, or maybe just didn't provide? Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question. I think maybe just more awareness of the situation, you know, as we've touched on, they were really good at, you know, and this is, like you said, the defensive side where you wanna defend your parents.

Mm-hmm they were really good at handling it. They were really good at showing us that we had two sets of parents who were very involved in our life, who loved us very much. And, you know, basically creating it as if it were a. Unbroken relationship. But I think with that, you know, what that did with me was made me feel like I couldn't feel emotions about it, or I couldn't feel like it was, you know, a situation to be sad about because they just, not that they masked it, but it just wasn't talked about.

Sure. It was just, you know, like I said, this is the way it is. You get what you get mm-hmm and, you know, especially, you know, as I touched on the conversation I recently had with my mom and my sister, and I have only occasionally talked about how we feel mm-hmm , but it was just, you know, maybe just having them say, I know this is hard on you.

Like that was just never verbalized. Yeah. It was more put on me of. , I don't wanna pressure you, you know, I don't want you, I don't wanna pressure you to come for home for Christmas or, you know, whatever the conversation was, but it was just put on me to make the decision, whereas, you know, I wanna throw it right back and say, this isn't on me.

Yeah. And so I think just that would've been really, really impactful. Mm-hmm to have my parents be the ones to say, you know, it's really touching to sit here with you, Joey. And have you say like, you know, you're not at fault or it's okay. That you feel this way. Many people feel this way. That's, that's really touching to hear.

But I think hearing that from your parents is even more impactful to just hear them say this isn't your fault. And I know this is hard cause I was never said a hundred percent. Yeah, I would, man, that would be really nice. I think like you said, you nailed it when you said a lot of parents are just unaware, like your parents using them as an example.

But, uh, but that seems to be pretty normal. There seems to be three types of parents just in this work. This is like, what we've learned. One type of parent is just a parent. Who's totally. They just like really don't have an idea or at least not a good idea of like what you're going through, what I'm going through.

The second type of parent is someone that they're aware. They have some insight into it. Maybe they went through their parents' divorce. Um, but they just don't know what to do about it. So they kind of, maybe they act like they aren't aware or they just feel pretty lost. So they just don't do anything.

And the third type of parent, which I have met, they're rare. They're the ones who have the awareness and then take like steps to help their kids deal with it and apologize and own up to the mistakes that they've made. And it's really beautiful. There's this one, couple Barb and Joe I've had the honor of meeting with and talking to, and, um, they just really beautiful.

They're like going to their kids and talking about how they're so sorry for what happened. They both were divorced. Got married. And then, um, 20 years later, they're starting to wake up to this reality. So a lot there, uh, just in closing out. if your parents were here right now, I know some of what you just said would apply.

What would you say to them? it's a tough, probably the toughest question I've asked so far. Yeah, definitely. Cuz you know, I wanna say, I'd say nothing. I'd say don't listen, don't, you know, don't hear my emotions, but you know, I think I would, I would say thank you for loving us and handling it the way you did and giving us, you know, showing us still what it means to love somebody mm-hmm because you know, they did that really well in their second marriage, both of them.

So I'd, I'd say thank you for that, but I'd also say, please hear me, you know, please know that this is hurt. Wow. Just closing out. I wanna give you last word first. Thanks for coming on. Um, for any of you listening, you might be wondering where's Dan , he's kind of been popping in and out taking care of the kids.

Yeah. Just curious to anyone who comes from the background that we come from. Dan, I'd love to hear your thoughts too. What, what advice would you give to someone like that, especially who wants to be married one day, um, who maybe, you know, Dan, from your perspective, advice to someone like you, who's marrying someone from a broken family, what would you say to them?

And then said, I wanna throw it to you as well to say, what advice would you give to, um, someone who does come from a broken family? Who's marrying someone from an intact family. Yeah. Just that stay strong, you know, no matter what I liked what you said at the beginning, Joey, when you talked about like, these feelings are normal, like not a lot of people, I feel like get told that like, it's okay to have these feelings about, you know, either blaming yourself and I know your book, it's not your fault.

like, that's a huge part of like, just being able to not blame yourself. And when you do have those feelings towards your parents, like, and then having that guilt as well, all of this is a normal process in a very similar way. Um, when we learn about the stages of grieving, like all normal things. Just because they're like, it's terrible.

They're awful things that have to, you have to go through, but those are normal feelings to have. And then just telling people who, uh, wanna get married or who are in a relationship like that, just like, yeah, exactly. Stay strong. And like, except for those things that we talked about, um, in terms of like staying together for the kids for certain other reasons, like if 70% of marriages get 70% of those divorces are because of like, I don't wanna say smaller issues, but what was the term you used?

Uh, low conflict. Yeah. Low conflict. Like, I feel that that is so true. So yeah, if you put your heart and soul into your spouse and into your marriage, you can make it work. Beautiful. Sid. Would you add anything for, you know, especially a couple like you guys, one comes from an intact family. One comes from a divorced family, any advice for navigating marriage and life together?

You know, as we've talked about, we're both Catholic. I actually wasn't Catholic growing up. I wasn't Catholic until I met Daniel for that matter. Um, and I know some listeners may or may not be, but whatever your beliefs are. I think that something that really hits home for me is when Daniel used to tell me that he would pray every night with his mom for his future spouse.

Hmm. And I was like, whoa, you know, having grown up, not even somebody who was praying at all, um, just the thought of like, there was this woman who sat with her son, however old, he was two years old in the bedroom praying for me and she didn't even know me. So I think my, you know, my biggest thing is whatever age you are, whatever stage you are in your life, pray for your future spouse, pray for your, the kids, your kids, future spouses.

Yeah. You know, I, I pray that that is what has brought us together. That that's what will keep us together. Mm-hmm um, the power of prayer is, is really important.

Love that conversation. If you wanna reach out to Sydney, you can find our contact information in the show notes. Again, if you'd like to meet with me personally, to talk about ReSTOR vision, I'd love to do that. Just email me@joeyrestorministry.com. Again, that's Joey ReSTOR ministry.com will schedule a time to get together.

If you'd like to make a donation to ReSTOR, just go to restored ministry.com/donate. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 60. Thank you so much for listening, and this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or separation broken marriage, go ahead and share this podcast with them.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

Holidays 101: How to Handle Probing Questions

2 minute read

You’re standing in a crowded living room, sipping on some eggnog and minding your own business, when suddenly, somehow, that one person you were hoping to avoid corners you. Before you know it, you’re reluctantly engaged in conversation and the thing you were dreading happens: he or she asks a probing question that you very much don’t want to answer (and really shouldn’t have to). Suddenly the conversation becomes highly uncomfortable and you find yourself in a very awkward situation. Help, please.

This is not an uncommon scenario. Especially during the holidays when we’re often confronted with those difficult relatives who are just a little too inquisitive—whether they mean to be nosy or not. Before you down an entire jug of eggnog to numb the discomfort of awkward conversations, try these tips to handle probing questions:

1. Avoid

   While normally I wouldn’t advocate running away from your problems, this is one of the few instances where avoiding is okay. If you know a certain friend, family member, or acquaintance is going to cross boundaries, try to stay out of earshot. Move to the other side of the room, strike up a conversation with someone else, excuse yourself to go to the bathroom, or even consider not going to an event where you know they are going to be—depending on how stressful or painful the situation could be to you.

2. Brief Answer

   If you’re unable to avoid the conversation, keep it short and sweet. When they ask a question you don’t want to answer, say something vague and succinct. Then you can ask them a question that will hopefully steer the conversation in a different, less uncomfortable, direction.

3. Call them Out

   Without being rude, you can kindly and gently say: “I don’t feel comfortable talking about this right now,” or “Is it okay if we talk about something else?” Although saying this is a little more confrontational, it will likely be more effective at preventing future incidents of unwanted inquisitiveness from this person.

4. Deflect

   Humor is your friend. Try to turn the question into an instance for laughter instead of something serious. This is especially handy when you don’t feel comfortable calling the person out. After a joke or two, you then have the opportunity to change the subject or even say you need to get food/a drink.

5. Stay Busy

   Play with at the kids’ table (everyone knows they have more fun anyway), wash dishes, offer the host some help . . . find something that will prevent the person you are trying to avoid from striking up a conversation with you. 

6. Plan Ahead

   If you are familiar with this person, you can potentially ask them in advance not to ask questions about a specific topic you don’t want to discuss with them. Again, this can be done in a way that is gentle as opposed to accusatory: “I’m really not ready to talk about x,” or “I’m trying not to think about x during the holidays .” If you are unable to have this type of preventative conversation, anticipate what they might ask and how you want to respond. Consider even practicing what you want to say a couple of times. This will ensure that when the time comes, you don’t feel flustered and caught off guard.

   
   The holidays should be a fun, joyful season. Unfortunately, as children of divorce this can often be a difficult time instead. But there are things we can do to help manage some of the stressful parts. We hope these tips help you handle probing questions with grace, and to have a more enjoyable, stress-free Christmas

#059: From a Broken Family? 9 Tactics to Navigate the Holidays

Are you from a broken family? If so, you know how challenging the holidays can be. Not only is it difficult to balance time between mom and dad, but we also have to deal with any family drama. Instead of enjoying the holidays, many of us just can’t wait till they’re over.

But there is good news: it doesn’t always have to be that way. In this episode, you’ll hear 9 tactics that you can use to navigate the holidays and hopefully, enjoy them again. It won’t make them perfect, but it will make them better.

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

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• Listen to episode 32: How to Navigate the Holidays: Advice from 11 Children of Divorce

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family, I don't have to tell you how challenging the holidays can be. Not only do we have to balance the logistics of spending time with mom and dad, but we also have to deal with any family drama intention, and it can truly make the holidays painful instead of enjoying them.

So many of us just can't wait until they're over. And I get it. I've experienced this myself many times, but there is good. It doesn't always have to be that way. In this episode, you'll get nine tactics that you can use to navigate the holidays and hopefully enjoy them again. Now, I can't promise you that if you do these things, that your holidays will be perfect, but they will be better.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 59. I wanna jump right into the content. The content you're about to hear is from my new book.

It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And at the end of the episode, I'll tell you how you can get the book if you want it. And I even have a free offer for you by the. There's mention of God in this episode, if you don't believe in God, you can just ignore that part.

I promise that you'll still benefit from this episode, even if you take that part away. So my challenge for you is to listen with an open mind

question 15. What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life event? During the holidays coming from a broken family is even more difficult. It's a stark reminder that your parents aren't together and your family is broken. It's common to feel alone and uncertain of how to deal with it all logistically it is challenging to balance time between each parent and twice as many festivities, especially if they don't live in the same area, it's easy to feel pressure to choose sides and pick between parents while you try to make everyone happy.

It becomes overwhelming to balance everyone's desires and expectations. If the divorce was relatively recent, the drama intention might be especially high, which makes it all the more challenging instead of enjoying the holidays. You dread them. But my hope is that the advice below will be handled the season and even experience some holiday joy.

Again. First, remember that it's not your responsibility to make everyone happy. It's not your job to fix your parents. It's not your job to clean up the mess inside your family. Although you love your parents, you have to remember that your parents got themselves in this situation. Now they need to deal with the consequences.

You can't change them. You can't change your family. Sure. You can positively influence them. But within limits, don't feel ashamed about spending time with one parent during the holidays. You're not portraying the other parent. You deserve a relationship with both parents around this time of year, especially your parents and other people might expect you to put on a good face and be happy.

That's not right. You should never have to pretend to be happy in the midst of a difficult situation. Remember that you can't make everyone happy, nor should you try when you try to make everyone happy, you'll end up making no one happy and yourself miserable. Second set and enforce healthy boundaries.

Boundaries. Define what you like and dislike what you're willing and unwilling to do the rules that inform people how to treat you in a way they're like the out of bounds markers on the sports field. When it comes to the holidays. It's okay to lay down those rules with your parents. Boundaries, give people the option to self-select out from a relationship with you.

If they are not follow. So think through what you will allow and not allow. For example, you can tell dad that you won't talk to him about mom, or you can set rules about how much time you'll spend with each parent. This holiday season boundaries are especially important to protect you from manipulative people who want to control you for their own benefit by using fear, guilt, or sense of obligation.

If you're faced with someone like that. Back out of the situation or confront them and be clear that you won't allow this to happen. It takes courage, but in the long run, it is worth the discomfort. As part of your preparation, be prepared for the predictable circumstances that will arise a conflict with a specific relative dad or mom bringing their new partner to the party or whatever else.

Prepare for what you'll say and how you'll handle those situations. One option is to avoid the situation altogether. Another is to prepare polite yet from talking points. So you're not taken by surprise. It doesn't have to be complicated. It just takes some forethought. Lastly, boundaries need to be enforced.

If you tell someone this is the boundary and they break it, there need to be consequences without them. They'll ignore your boundaries next time. Be ready to enforce any boundaries. You. Third communicate ahead of time. Make a plan for the holidays and tell your parents avoid spending time with both parents on the same day on Thanksgiving.

Perhaps you spend it with your dad on Christmas. Perhaps you spend it with your mom, but the day following each holiday, you can have us. Second celebration with the other parent. This prevents you from becoming emotionally exhausted, which you have a duty to avoid. Similarly, you have every right to express your feelings to your parents.

Be honest and tell them your needs. You can say, I love you, but it can be really hard around the holidays to please you both and not offend you. I need you to understand my decisions, my boundaries, and understand that the tension in our family makes it difficult to enjoy the holiday. Set expectations well in advance.

So nothing comes as a surprise. Tell both parents when you'll see them and for how long, if you live at home, this can be extra difficult. You might not be able to leave a party, but even in that case, communicate what you are and are not comfortable with. Do what's within your power to enforce those boundaries.

Even if they won't respect them. In some cases, you may even need to take a break from visiting certain family members during the holiday. And may benefit from being around other families to remind you that there can be stability that you long for. And so deserve fourth, take owner. While you didn't cause the situation, you can choose how to handle it.

Well, even amidst the drama intention, you can choose your response, do what you can with what you're given, avoid being the victim who blames and never takes responsibility for what's in their control. One way to take ownership is to plan distractions from the drama, such as watching a movie, spending time with friends, playing games or another wholesome activity that relieves some of the tension and.

Avoid isolating yourself for extended periods of time. As much as you can taking a walk to get a breather is okay. Locking yourself in your room for hours at a time is not fifth. Be virtuous in each situation. Do your best to respond well. Be diplomatic, be the better person. Apologize when you make mistakes.

Keep in mind that your parents are learning to navigate the holidays too. So give them some grace, do your best to be kind loving and polite, but don't be a door. If someone mistreats, you stand up for yourself, play your role in keeping the peace. But remember that you can only play a part you're not solely responsible for keeping the peace.

Most of all, do your best. Not to allow other people to determine your peace and happiness, make the decision to keep your calm, whatever the circumstances in difficult moments, or remember to take a breath. Pause to think and detach from the intensity of the emotions before you act by doing that, you'll make better decisions about what to do and say next sixth, make a plan to take care of yourself.

The holidays are emotionally exhausting. If you don't take care of yourself, you might end up doing something you'll regret and in an attempt. To fill your needs. Think ahead. About the difficult emotions you might feel, have one or two ways to calm yourself if you're anxious or to experience some joy. If you feel down and depressed, see question 14 about coping in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, having a plan goes a long way. When you feel out of sorts because of the tension, drama, or sadness around the holidays, in the middle of parties or gatherings, don't hesitate to step away for a breather. If you need to leave, then do. Whatever you do allow yourself to feel your feelings work through them, pay attention to them and learn from them, ignoring them or stuffing them away only makes things worse.

The only way to heal and grow is by moving through those negative and messy emotions. Ask someone to be there for you during the holidays. So you can talk about it all. Don't do this alone. Seventh focus on the celebration, focus on the meaning of the holidays. For example, on Thanksgiving, reflect on what you are grateful for.

Even in the worst situations, you can always find something you are grateful for. It's so easy to lose the meaning of the holiday in the midst of the drama intention, but refocus when needed. Appreciate the little things, especially the food, your siblings, or your pets, keep in mind that you might need to lower your expectations for the holidays.

Unfortunately, you might not feel the same joy, safety and security with your parents anymore. In the midst of that, try to focus on the celebration and the meaning of the holiday eighth, ask God for help. Again, don't do it alone. God sees your pain. He wants to be there for you. Let him during that family party, when you feel.

Tell Jesus about it, know that he doesn't want it to be this way. Either trust that he is not finished with you or your family while the divorce or separation is devastating, God can bring good even out of evil. Perhaps you'll never see that in your family, but you can see it in your own life trust that he isn't finished with you lean on him when things are difficult during the holidays.

Ninth learned from it. All, whatever happens in life, there are always lessons to learn. See it as an opportunity to become a better, stronger person. Think about the lessons you can use in the future, especially to build your own family holiday traditions in your family might die because of the divorce.

That's hard to swallow. But remember that you can start your own traditions, especially if you have your own family or soon will a new tradition might look like spending time with another family or friend. If your family is toxic, be intentional about who you choose to spend time with. Ideally choose a family that models what it means to be a true and good family, the kind you want for your future and making your own traditions think back on what you loved or what you missed out on, make a list of things you wanna do for your own kids.

If you simply drift through the holidays without a plan or preparation, then it's likely the drama tension and dysfunction will overwhelm you. Given that it's completely understandable to dread the holidays, but there is a better way. Use the tips above to reduce the drama and enjoy the holidays. Again, have hoped that you're not doomed to experience holiday distress forever.

You can experience the peace and joy you desire during the holiday season. For more tips on navigating the holidays. Listen to episode 32 of the resort podcast at ReSTOR. Dot com slash 32. If you'd like a private place to talk about the challenges that you face during the holidays, join our private and free online community.

It's built for people like us. It'll help you feel less lonely. Get advice from people who've been through your experiences and challenge you to grow into a better. Stronger person join in three easy steps at restore ministry.com/community.

One question that you can think on is what can you do today? To prepare for the holidays. Think back through the tactics that you heard in the episode, and then make a simple plan to put them into action. As I mentioned, the content you just heard is from my new book, which is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

The sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults who come from broken families, The most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and problems that stem from their family's breakdown. And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationships, struggles, and so much more.

And I experience these problems firsthand. I know what it's like. It shouldn't be this way. It's not your fault. My new book is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges. By teens and young and adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so much more? The content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. After reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. To buy the book or get the first chapters free. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Or just click on the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 59. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' separation, divorced, broken marriage, share this podcast with them, especially if they're struggling at this time of the year with all the holidays, go ahead and share this podcast with them.

And always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel hold again and become the person that you were born to be.

Radio Show with Reach of 237 Million People Interviews Restored's Founder, Joey Pontarelli

Our founder and CEO, Joey Pontarelli, joined The Drew Mariani Show to discuss his new book, It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce.

You can listen to the recording by clicking play below or choosing your favorite podcast app. If you choose the podcast app method, fast forward to minute mark 28:00.

The Drew Mariani Show is the most listened-to program on Relevant Radio. Heard on 184 stations nationwide in afternoon drive, this Gabriel Award-winning, current event-driven show reaches a potential audience over terrestrial radio of 237 million, including the largest markets in the country: New York, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Philadelphia, as well as numerous affiliates throughout the country.

We also have 700,000+ downloaded smartphone apps around the world and more than 2 million online accesses for The Drew Mariani Show in 2020 alone.

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Two Years (When Healing Takes a Little Longer)

3 minute read.

I guess I assumed that time would bring about the change I wanted.

“Time heals all things.”

Isn’t that a thing?

“It just takes time.”

Maybe it does–maybe it’s just a lot longer than I expected.

It is painfully frustrating to live the same unwelcome thing over and over again: the anxiety, anger, and distrust that I couldn’t shake two years ago.

Somehow I thought knowing I had these tendencies—awareness—would be enough to keep it all at bay. Especially considering the bitter consequences it all has led to before.

It’s not.

And two years has done little to improve this.

So how am I supposed to find healing? When will I get better? Will I get better?

God heals. He is the source of healing. Although I think He can—and often does—use other people to facilitate healing. But for some reason it doesn’t always happen right away—or even after two years.

I’m not sure where the line is between ‘He allows it for a reason’ and ‘we get in our own way/have free will’.

Maybe I could be doing more to expedite the process.

There is a strange comfort in holding on to your wounds. It’s an excuse to act out, to hide away, to not give up bad habits that are hard to break.

It’s a little safer. It’s easier. Because opening yourself up to healing requires a receptivity and trust which we often would rather avoid.

There’s also the misconception that you can’t be hurt more than you already have been. So if you hold on to your hurt, it becomes a sort of barrier against further damage.

Not the most logical thing in the world, but humans rarely are.

The whole thing is just so risky. And it amazes me how people fail to understand that.

“It’ll be fine.” “Things will work out.” “Either way you’ll be okay.”

What, what.

That has not been my experience. And to me, thinking that way is naive bordering insane.

“You just have to trust God.”

If it were that easy don’t you think I would have done it already?

It’s like standing on the precipice of a cliff, looking down into the waters far, far below and people are urging you to just jump. Meanwhile you are covered in bruises and your arm remains mangled from the last time you tried the shenanigan.

No thanks.

It’s a terrible feeling. Trapped in fear–unable to distinguish between reality and what could be/has been.

Everything becomes a sign of danger, red flags appear everywhere I look, and deafening alarms are blaring–meanwhile everyone else is oblivious, urging me along and I have no idea if they are crazy or I am.

And I had hoped that this was past me now. I guess it was naive to think that a couple of years would have erased something so deeply rooted.

It’s discouraging, because I really don’t know if I will ever change. I don’t know if I will ever be capable of what I want to be capable of.

“I didn’t ask for the painful memories of my past–I don’t know why it’s the damn darkest ones that last.”

This week I was reminded to trust God’s healing process.

I’m not sure what other choice I have. I just worry about the damage I do in the meantime. I guess He must have accounted for that already; my overwhelming weakness and inability to fight this battle on my own.

He must know.

So I’m waiting. Because I can’t fix this. I can pray, I can learn, I can put forth effort (which is largely pitiable), but I cannot be the source of my own healing.

So I’ll stand on the precipice for now. Whether or not I’ll jump remains to be seen. But I know that if I am left to my own devices I will most likely walk away. Because it’s too hard. And it’s too scary. And the reality of past hurts are too much.

Therefore the only thing I can commit to at the moment is trying my best not to run away from the precarious edge of which I am almost unbearably terrified—and wait.

“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.”

CS Lewis, The Four Loves

I guess two years really isn’t that long, when you think about it.

This article was written by Restored team member, Miranda Henkel. It has been reposted with permission. It originally appeared on her blog, First Class Act.

#058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns

Forgiving someone that wounded you is difficult. Not only is forgiveness difficult, it is often over simplified and misunderstood. 

That’s why we interviewed an expert on forgiveness, who happens to be a child of divorce. In this practical episode, we address:

• What exactly is forgiveness?

• How to forgive through the four stages of forgiveness

• Why forgiveness is good for you and unforgiveness is bad for you

• How does compensation or reparation factor into forgiveness?

• Practical advice to forgive someone who feels impossible to forgive

Buy Fr. John’s books: Lift Up Your Heart: A 10-Day Personal Retreat with St. Francis de Sales | Adore: A Guided Advent Journal for Prayer and Meditation

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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• Fr. John Burns

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Forgiving someone who's hurt. You can be extremely difficult. It might be one of the most difficult things that any of us can do, but not only is forgiveness difficult. It's often oversimplified and misunderstood. That's why today I interviewed an expert on forgiveness who dedicated his doctoral research and dissertation on that very topic, healing through forgiveness.

He also happens to be a child of divorce, but this isn't just an academic interview. It's very practical as well. In this episode, we address the question, what exactly is forgiveness? We also talk about how to forgive someone using the four stages of forgiveness. We break down exactly how forgiveness is good for you and how unforgiveness.

Is bad for you. And we answered the question, how does compensation or reparation factor into forgiveness? We hit on some common myths about and barriers to forgiveness. And my guests offer some practical advice to taking steps or forgive someone you feel like it's just impossible to forgive really amazing stuff.

So people listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode. Eight. And you might have heard that my new book is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

And the problem is this for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and the problems that stem from their. Breakdown. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle and feel alone in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more.

And I experienced these exact same problems and it really shouldn't be this way. My book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned.

Unwanted inadequate and even rejected is something wrong with me. What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so many more questions? The content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories.

And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents, divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, they'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future.

And if you wanna buy the book or get the first chapters free, just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular. Dot com slash books go there and just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is father John Burns. He's a priest for the archdiocese of Milwaukee and author of the bestselling book.

Lift up your heart a 10 day personal retreat with St. Francis DeSales. He was ordained in 2010. He has served as an associate pastor and pastor in Milwaukee, as well as an adjunct professor of moral theology at the sacred heart seminary in school. Of theology. He completed a doctorate in moral theology at the Pontifical university of holy cross in Rome in 2019, his doctoral research focused on the theology of healing through forgiveness.

Father burns speaks at conferences, preaches missions, and directs retreats. Throughout the country. He works extensively with the sisters of life and St. Mother Teresa's missionaries of charity and has given retreats conferences and spiritual direction for the sisters in Africa, Europe, and the United States.

Now quick disclaimer, obviously father John Burns is a Catholic Christian. He's a Catholic priest, but this interview, this conversation is not solely a religious conversation. In fact, the basis for so much of his research is actually based on secular science. And so if you don't believe in. You're totally welcome here.

In fact, I'm so happy that you're here. As I say, often, this show is not just for Christians. It's for anyone who comes from a broken family and anyone who loves or leads someone who comes from a broken family. And I know for a fact that you will benefit from this conversation, even if you were to take the God parts out of it.

So my challenge to you is to just listen with an open mind, and I know you're gonna benefit from this conversation with that. Let's dive into the, I.

Father, Johnny Burns. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate you taking the time. Yeah. Good to be with you. Joey's super grateful. I know you've done so much research and have given talks and forgiveness and topics related to it. So wanted to start with a basic question and that is what exactly is forgiveness.

We throw that term around, but I wanna really define what we mean when we say forgiveness. Yeah. I mean, that's like, that's one of the great questions of our day, I think, because whether you're a believer or a nonbeliever, as you look around in the world and in your own heart, like there's tons of stuff that's really broken.

And, uh, a lot of places where we're carrying a lot of bitterness and it seems like there's just no way forward. And I think a lot of people are realizing in a lot of different fronts that, that revenge isn't working, trying to get back what was taken away, isn't working. And there has to be another way.

Forgiveness is that other way? Like, uh, maybe at the highest level, we could just define forgiveness as a pathway, through all the bitterness and pain we carry from all that's been done to us, a pathway through this different from seeking vengeance, punishment and revenge. It's letting go of a debt. It has a lot of components that, that touch upon all the emotions that also touch upon our faith.

If we believe in the Lord, but forgiveness really ultimately is a gift. It's giving something to someone who doesn't deserve it in place. What would be a more maybe innate or native response to, to punish them or to hurt them instead? Absolutely. And there there's so many stories. Um, I, I think of the count of Monte Christo coming to mind how, you know, where, where you see these people seeking revenge, going after revenge and in the end, it always comes up short.

It doesn't give the fulfillment that maybe it appeared to give, but I think people who maybe feel that inclination towards revenge, They, uh, may look at forgiveness and say, uh, father, like that, that's just weakness. What would you say to someone who says that forgiveness is weakness and maybe the appropriate response would be punishing someone?

Yeah. I mean, that's essentially for guys, that's like one of our biggest struggles is the thought that if I forgive, I'm letting someone off the hook or I'm condoning what they did, I'm giving them permission to keep doing. And, uh, that makes good sense. I get where that comes from. I've had to deal with that myself in a number of spots, pondering that and, and really admitting that that actually is an, an impediment to authentic forgiveness or forgiveness from the heart in the end.

It's to my mind, it's harder. To, to restrain the impulse, to strike back, to think through what my response will be, whether it be an instantaneous response or something, that's a response. Something happened a long time ago to, uh, to pause, to be strong enough, to not have to just punch back right away and then decide what's the best thing to do.

And if I decide. To offer kindness in place of bitterness and rage. If I decide to offer blessing and place of curse, that's more demanding. Uh, Thomas Aquinas, when he talks about forgiveness, he says, well, mercy, in general, he says, mercy is not skipping justice or forgoing justice. It's giving something more than what justice demands.

Kind of use a base example. Like if, if you owe someone a hundred, um, dollars who says denari to give them a hundred more, doesn't deny justice. It goes beyond justice. Justice is to repay to give something to someone who doesn't deserve it's surpasses Justice's balance. And in fact, Really disassembles the heart of the recipient.

I mean, when you hurt someone, you expect them to lash back. When you, when you throw an insult at someone, you don't expect them to be kind. The response of forgiveness, the merciful response is like disarming and almost confusing. Sometimes when, when we see someone forgive and. That really opens up a pathway in the heart to like, uh, maybe there's a different narrative here.

Maybe there's a different way. That makes so much sense. And it, so basically what you're saying is it takes so much strength. It takes self-mastery in order to respond to the brokenness in alive to the hurt that other people have caused us. And it makes me think of, uh, a phrase that Victor Frankel wrote in man searched for meaning.

He said between stimulus and response, there is a space and that space is our power to choose our response. And our response lies our growth and our freedom. And we're gonna get into freedom, but I love that line. I think it's so beautiful. And it's essentially what I hear you saying is that space between stimulus responds becoming a master of that space and really controlling how we respond.

Um, it takes so much strength. That's not weakness. Yeah. You know, virtue, uh, is key. I know you've done a show in the past on virtue. We really define forgiveness as virtuous activity, which isn't easy is demanding, uh, but also makes us better. And virtue requires, uh, an element of deliberation for its perfection.

Like we need to think through, uh, the virtuous person is always is pondering. What's true. And what's good. And what's fitting and what's appropriate. All that's demanding, which is why forgiveness isn't easy, but also it's strong. It's stronger. And for the believer really to look at the cross of Jesus Christ, that's where we see ultimately the, the strength of forgiveness.

You know, the cross Christ has all the power in heaven on earth to, to sweep away those who have betrayed him, uh, have unjustly treated him, have brutally abused him and are murdering him. He's in the midst of being murdered on the cross. And instead of striking back retaliating, even just with words, but also with deeds, instead of all that he chooses forgiveness and that's much more demanding, but also, uh, again, more captivating and also, um, this assembling of the patterns of evil that are just riving around everybody's heart forgiveness, unlocks that it opens up a pathway that that is, is strong.

That's powerful. I wanna shift over to the practical steps of forgiveness. So what exactly is the process of forgiving someone? What does that look like? Yeah, so here's where I, I, uh, most of the work I've done for the last several years in forgiveness is relies upon a, a secular psychologist named Dr.

Robert Enright. He works at the university of Wisconsin and is kind of considered the guru. They call him the guru of forgiveness. I think time magazine called him that, and he basically developed a process for, for forgiveness in the therapeutic setting. Um, that leads people from anger and bitterness and resentment to forgiveness with all kinds of emotional release and positive physical, psychological benefits.

The reason I love his work is because it actually all adheres and coheres perfectly with the Christian framework with what's said in the scriptures with what's said in the, in the theological tradition, especially in Thomas Aquinas. So what he's doing is effective everywhere. It doesn't need to be used only by believers, but, but what he's doing out in the secular setting outside of the framework of faith can be brought into the framework of faith and, and actually expanded upon significantly with the help of prayer, grace, the guidance of the holy spirit, sacred scripture, all these things, but.

To start with kinda the secular and right. Uh, he just lays out these four stages and really the first phase has to be admitting that we're angry. . And when he, when I first read that one of his books, I was like, I don't know, is that really the first step to forgiveness admitting that I'm angry and I sort of rebelled against that idea.

I thought there must be other manifestations, but when you're honest about it, anger, and it may not be exactly angry. It might define it as like, um, a bitterness, a, a heavy sorrow. Vengefulness hatred, spite ranker. We have all these different words, but there's a manifesting emotion. That's towards someone else who's hurt us.

And, and the first step is just kind of looking at that and being really honest about the heart, about the intensity of what's going on in the heart and just kind of getting a sense for. What's going on and why is it going on? When was I hurt? Uh, what happened when I was hurt? What did I start to think about as I was hurt?

How am I thinking about that now? How do I carry that? How intense is the pain right now? Has that intensity changed over time? Really? Just to get a, a good and honest. Awareness of what's going on within that's the first step of kind of uncovering the emotions and tons more. I can say about that if we want to get into practicals.

Um, but then after that we have to, this is the step two. We just have to admit that we're not actually doing okay. That on our own. We're not really able to survive under this intense emotion. We've tried to live with our anger or with our resentment, which kind of is the result of heavy anger. And it's just not working.

We can't make it go away, but it's also frustrating and agitating enough that we realize it's a problem. So in that step, step two, it there's a volitional moment that a, a choice that, that resides the level of the will, where we. I'm done, trying to do it the way that I've done it, whatever it is. And however I've been trying to do it.

I'm done with the old patterns because they're not making anything better. The bitterness just spreads. I'm passing it on to other people. I'm miserable. I mean, saints as well as psychologists. Now show us that. Sitting in that unresolved emotion leads to anxiety, depression, um, addictive behavior, all kinds of even heart disease.

It can agitate the inflammation that cooperates with cancer spread. So intense emotion that's unresolved is, is really dangerous. And, and so the second step is once we understand the intense emotion is to. I'm not gonna keep doing what I've been doing. I'm gonna choose a different way and that way is forgiveness.

And so it's basically just making a choice to move out of seeking vengeance, revenge, repayment, punishment, and saying, I choose another way. And that's an act of the will. We're able to do that. Even if the emotions are tense, we have freedom of will. We are able to assert our wills and say, I choose another way.

Even if I am not excited about. My emotions are kind of running in the opposite direction. Maybe every direction I can still make an act of the will. I choose something different and that different way is forgiveness. So that's step two, step three then is kind of working on forgiveness and there's all kinds of elements to this piece that this is definitely the longest of the steps.

But what we do is we start to sort of ponder the situation as it happened, as we remember it and notice how we're remembering it. We start to ask questions about like, what was the person who hurt me? What was their life like at that time, what were they going through? What's their backstory. Um, and if I know them, typically, the people who have really hurt us are, are family members or friends.

And so we know a little bit of their backstory and the basic principle that we hear often in healing circles is that hurt people, hurt people. And so when people hurt us, The the pain usually can be traced back to love. Believe it or not, that might not seem immediately obvious, but it's either the deprivation of love that that was there or the withdrawal of love that was there, or the withholding of love that, that we needed to be there.

So this is often like parents who just weren't attentive. Uh didn't didn't come to us who didn't seek us out when we needed them. Didn't pursue our hearts. Didn't encourage us, strengthen us. Challenge us, love us when we fell. Um, there's a, there's an ache in the heart there that is a deprivation of love.

That leads us to the emotional intensity that we encountered in step one in step three, we're looking at like, okay, the person who withdrew love from me or deprived me of the love that I needed. What's their story. What was going on in their life? How did they experience love or how was love withdrawn from them?

So I'm seeking to understand. And even eventually be compassionate toward the people who have hurt me. Now, that's really painful obviously. And especially in like deeper traumas that doesn't come super quickly, but it's something we have to work at for the believer. This is where the holy spirit comes in as well, because often we can't see the backstory to another heart, but the Lord sees both hearts, the heart of the one who's hurt and the one who hurt.

And so the Lord can give us a certain sense of. His stance toward the other person, his stance of compassion for their own suffering and seeing that what they did, they did outta their own pain and outta their own brokenness, perhaps without a sense of how much it was gonna crush our hearts. And that softens a little bit that emotional intensity.

So we perceive the other, especially if we can, in the light of God, how God sees them, because they're as much in need of mercy as we are. And then we just begin saying, I forgive you, of course the words. And especially if we can invoke the name of Jesus there, that's really powerful. But then we kind of notice like, all right, when I say I forgive you, I don't feel it.

Uh, or maybe I've said shot up, forgive you a thousand times before. And it hasn't worked or nothing's come from that. What's going on underneath that. There's a lot more emotional layering that kind of has to be uncover. So we're seeking the truth in the third step, seeking to understand what actually happened, um, to assess maybe whether they were remembering it correctly and then the truth of, of where they were coming from as that happened.

And then, um, looking just eventually that the third step culminates in, in offering a gift to the person who heard us, and that could be very concrete, but it also just maybe to be practical and, and to caution everybody. Forgiveness does not have to be interactive immediately and maybe it never will be interactive.

So what I mean is in the case of, for example, uh, an abusive spouse or parent who is a danger to us currently, we don't need to rush back into a relationship that's going to further hurt us and maybe even put us at risk in order to forgive forgiveness. First happens in the. It's a release of all of that emotional intensity and a turning of the heart toward the other end blessing, as opposed to in curse, which is the previous stance that happens within first and foremost.

And so this work is unfolding within us. And then may eventually lead us to an encounter, an interaction even eventually to reconciliation, and maybe we'll come back to how important it's to distinguish forgiveness from reconciliation. So I say that because there needs to be some concrete culmination of an offering of a gift, but that doesn't need to be something that comes about through an interaction.

The gift of my heart, towards someone who hurt me might be the choice to. To offer prayer for them or offer sacrifice for them might be writing a note to them, even if it's a note that I never send, but a note in which I praise a couple of their gifts instead of focusing on, uh, how tremendously intense is the hatred I seem to have toward them, it might be going outta my way to do good deeds for them, whether they'll see them or not shifting my will basically toward Goodwill and away from ill.

And so the culmination there is where we can kind of check in on forgiveness over time. Like what's the gift I'm offering? Am I, is the gift getting better? Am I offering it more freely and more fully do I eventually want to be a blessing to this person? And when the answer to those questions starts to increase toward the good, I know that I'm, I'm forgiving a little bit more with each time.

And I mentioned that time and that process reality, cuz. Forgiveness doesn't happen quickly. And, uh, it also often has to be repeated many, many times because the virtues are acquired by practice and habituation forgiveness grows and is perfected with, with time with practice. So first three steps there, the last is really more reflective.

It's like looking back and DEC and discerning, like, okay, now that I chose this other way, What fruit is it bearing is my heart freer. What's that freedom like, and then how can I become an instrument of that freedom for other people? How can I recognize, especially that the evil that occurred has now become an actual avenue for my becoming a better person.

And this is a theological principle, especially that God is able to use evil to bring about good. That would not have been possible, had the evil not occurred. And again, the cross is our prime example. Fruit of the resurrection in life for all those who believe we actually delight in the cross, not for the evil itself, but for the fact that the father brought about some great, good through allowing his own son to suffer.

We've been allowed to suffer. It's not fair. However, when we persevere in goodness, and when we turn our minds and our hearts toward the truth, especially as believers, when we let grace and the holy spirit guide us here, we get better at life. We get freer, but also we become holier. We become saints and forgiveness actually is this pathway out of a tremendous darkness into the life of the light that we're called to, as those who seek to follow Christ.

So that's the fourth stage. We're just talking about embracing or discovering freedoms of forgivenesses freedom. Wow. There's so much there and it's beautiful. And the one word I would use to describe everything you just said is it's so hopeful because the alternative is just emptiness and despair and anger and bitterness and everything, you know, that you had mentioned before.

And so it's so beautiful to hear you kind of go through those steps again, which are based in scientific psychological clinical work, but also something that the church has found in maybe different language. So it all aligns, which is powerful, but it's so hopeful. It's so hopeful, which is beautiful. I would like to drill into them a little bit more if that's okay.

And I was curious, would you mind giving an example of maybe someone working through these steps with a particular harm? So. I can throw out an example, if you wanna use a different one, that's totally fine. So, uh, you know, the people listening right now come from broken families, the majority of them, and.

You know, maybe dad had an affair or mom was abusive or something like that. So any sort of situation like that I think would really help our audience to walk through these steps in a, um, more practical way. Not that what you said, wasn't practical. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I maybe to add a layer to what I said, a part of like what makes forgiveness work is, is just the acknowledgement first off, step one of our pain, but, but really the acknowledgement that.

I have a sort of reflex for revenge and, and basic sort of, um, evolutionary biologists, really point to the idea that if we don't have an instinct for revenge culture would not have survived through many of the war torn eras, like revenge is kind of built into us and, and we would see this even biblically of course, the I for an I principle of the old Testament, we just snap back and that's.

Sub rational that sort of occurs automatically. So most of the time when, when we've been hurt really badly, we're, we're stuck in this pursuit of revenge, this desire to avenge our, our, our hurts and, and that frames, uh, the way we approach people who have hurt us in ways, we often don't really realize, but we'll spend.

Years, sometimes decades waiting for that one conversation to finally get the words right. And tell 'em what they did or to, to punch them back. Like in my case, I there's a doctor who, um, gravely injured my father during surgery when I was a teenager and my dad was never the same. He was crippled paralyzed.

I had to couldn't work ever again. My parents ended up divorced and I spent like decades planning to meet this doctor and have my revenge praise, the Lord. It never happened. And we've got a bunch of really powerful stories in literature and in film showing us the fact that revenge actually never really satisfies.

Like if I had been able to, to punch that doctor, nothing really would've been put back, you know, Can't have my dad back the way that he was, the, the mistake can't be undone. Those things aren't going to be returned, but that revenge instinct is telling us that, that if we get back at them, everything will be okay again.

So we really need to think that through, but kind of before we partake of the forgiveness process and realize. Typically, what was done to us, can't really fully be undone. If something was taken away from us often, it, it can't be given back, but that's not despairing. Um, that's hopeful. What that is is that's letting go of a sort of instinctual response and choosing a more human response.

A survival response is prevention, forgiveness, more human responses like, well, what's the best way to become better at life. Um, to be more like Christ, to be more like an excellent man or. So in the case of like a parent who, um, has hurt us as kids, you know, a lot of the time I've, I've walked with people who like want their childhood back or want their family back.

And, and they won't put words to that, maybe that way, but they'll be like, you know, if only this wouldn't happened, then everything else would've been just fine. If dad wouldn't have left that mom wouldn't have had to deal with this. And my sister wouldn't have gone through that. And, and there's this pursuit, it's a childlike hope that, um, by trying to write things.

They can have back their childhood or they can have back what was taken away from 'em. And of course we know that's just not possible. We don't go back in time anyways, but, but often this is operat in our hearts. And so just needing to, to pause and be very respectful of our own hearts and be like, all right, look, this is, this is where I sit in this pain, but, but I'm also a old enough now to say, I need to think through another way here.

I need to let go of the pursuit of revenge, but I also need to be like, this is, this is just not working out. And I don't think even if I had that one conversation, I don't think I'd feel better because there's something more going on around the pain than just what they did. I've been sitting with it maybe for years.

I'm I'm bitter because I've been ruminating over what mom did or what dad said or didn't say. And so for them to say it or on say it, isn't gonna get rid of the rumination, isn't gonna get rid of the intensity. So again, that's all kind of around the first step. There is just acknowledging what all's going on and then choosing the different way we kind of covered that, but it would be like, you know, looking at.

Looking at your parent, let's say and saying for much of my life, I've wanted you to change what you did or, and this is just in your own mind and heart. You don't have to necessarily have this conversation, but looking at them and just deciding to be a, a mature person, if you're a grown up to be an adult, if you're, if you're a teenager to be like, I can, I can act like, um, someone of maturity here and step above my pain and be reasonable about what's the best thing to do here because I, for, and I what's the saying, right.

It makes the whole world go blind. I think it's Zach brown, but it's also Gandhi and it's all these other folks. It's, it's good. Saying. . And then in the understanding phase of the, the third phase, it's really, it's really testing our memories. Um, and so to maybe sidebar here, we have to get pretty used to remembering and, and assessing whether we're remembering well.

And then ideally even praying through our memories and asking like, okay, where's the intensity? Am I remembering correctly? Is there a better way to. And as I remember, where are the stops, the gaps, the skips, where do I notice that? Like, when I see that scene in my mind, my blood starts to boil. And when I see these things happen, my blood boils in the same way.

So maybe there's a connection. You know, like a lot of people who were in, in verbally abusive homes will, will trigger real easily. When someone starts to yell, it might have nothing to do with them, even it's background yelling, but it just causes this. Echo. And so learning to spot the echoes with our originating places of pain and tracing those roots back and saying, okay, in my memory, especially in this situation, trying to forgive, what, what did I start to believe about myself?

What did I start to believe about my mom or my dad or my siblings or my family? Where did certain untruths kind of coil around my heart and still make it hard to breathe because learning to remember, well, or even just notice in the story where there are GIS, uh, gaps or skips or, or dark places that's gonna equip us in the present moment to, to, to have a higher degree of self knowledge, the type of self knowledge that leads us to ultimately to self gift or to excellence.

We can't give ourselves away till we know what we're giving. And so searching our heart, searching our stories. Brings us into a more honest assessment of what's actually in there. And what's happened both around the wound we're confronting, but also just around the, the whole of our heart. And that kind of comes around this process of forgiveness to make it easier, to get concrete.

As we try to say, like, what is the charity? What is the kindness that could. Undo that which was done to me that makes me still so sorrowful, so angry, so resentful. So I'm not sure if I'm coming around with enough practicality there, I'm trying to kind of round out each of those steps. Yeah, no, that, that's fantastic.

And I think, uh, for so many people listening, they can relate so much to the example you gave of the, the situation with your dad that is so tragic and difficult to deal with. And it led to so many. So many other tragedies and the marriage of your parents and your own life. And so I can't imagine how difficult that's been to, to work through, but I think that this all makes so much sense and I love the encouragement you gave.

And, and I didn't think of this honestly, but before we did this interview, but it's so powerful how reflection is necessary to forgiveness. And I remember learning from, uh, a C. That neurobiologists have found that, uh, the act of reflecting on your story, just like you just said is actually healing on a neuro biological level.

It increases the neuro connectivity of our brain. So for everyone listening, if you think of your brain, like a big web it'll increase the connections, which in, in essence makes your brain healthier and it makes you better person, a healthier person, more whole person. And so, uh, in essence follow what you're saying is going through this process is very healing.

Which I know the people listening to the show. We, we want that we want that healing, which is amazing, connected to that. And you've mentioned it here or there. Why is this so good for you? Um, in a few words, why is forgiveness so good for you? Again, you've touched on this already, but I just wanna really hone in on it.

Unforgiveness is classically defined as a form of. It, it falls under the category of hatred and, and hatred never leads to anything. Good. Hatred is a vice and it's destructive it's consumptive. So even though we may not immediately think of the places where we have unforgiveness, as places of hate unforgiveness is a type of hatred.

It's where we're, we're throttling our enemy and demanding repayment. And again, especially sometimes an exorbitant repayment or a type of repayment that can't be had. So it's a kind of a futile posture in which we're very often stuck. I think it was Corey 10. Boom, who said to forgive is to, to let a prisoner free and to discover that the prisoner is me.

So, so it's liberating because we discover we're clenched up toward our enemies and self-defense posture, survival mechanism mode. And forgiveness is like a letting go of that, that posture of, of tension and, and a bound up heart putting down the weapons, you know, like not being just like on guard for the next encounter so we can go to battle.

And that all leads us to a certain lightness of heart. At ease of breathing. I mean like a lot of the people I've walked with in, in forgiveness will talk about being able to breathe again after they've forgiven and this living under a constriction prior to that, that they didn't even know about. So it's just liberating aside from increasing our excellence and making our, our lives more like Christ's life, because he's perfectly merciful.

It also frees us up from all kinds of bondage, emotional bondage that has, as you named even a neurological impact. The best way to think about healing is always integration or communion or union and wounding sin, uh, as division separation, fragmentation, our minds even are stories they're fragmented by these painful places is where we shut down or black things out or tried to skip over.

Healing reintegrates or reifies, reifies the, the, the narrative, our own story. Reifies our life into God's life. Reintegrates us into God. Reintegrates our own hearts ends the, the, the war within us thinking, you know, like St. Paul says, like, I. I do the things I do not want to do. And I do not do the things I want to do.

Healing just makes it easier to do the good things and avoid the evil things. And when we notice the other going on it's cuz there's some sin, not only our own, but that which has been inflicted upon us. So forgiveness is just this. I would argue essential and central pathway out of the, the death trap of our wounds.

We, we default to living there, but, but when we discover there's a way out, not only is it hopeful, but it's also totally liberating. And so it's gonna end the hatred. It's gonna end the binding force on our hearts. It's also gonna end all kinds of neurological complexity and physiological complexity. All of that, I would argue I'm a priest because forgiveness is actually what God called us to constantly through the scriptures and what Jesus Christ himself modeled on the cross.

As I pointed out before, this is the way of, of excellence. Reunites reifies and reintegrates that, which was put a under by all of the divisive force of sin wounds and brokenness. I wanna, I wanna shift to, uh, reparation and compensation. So you kind of touched on that a little bit there. Uh, and, and before, uh, I'm curious, how does reparation or compensation work with forgiveness?

A quick example, a few years ago, my wife was in a car accident, a woman. Hit her from behind at a stoplight, she was on her phone. Didn't hit her brake. Soon enough, this woman hit my wife, you know, caused her bunch of, uh, pain in her back in her neck, in her. And, uh, so in that scenario, I'm just curious, is it contrary to forgiveness to seek compensation?

For example, we ended up suing the insurance company because they weren't covering as much as they should have. And so maybe it's a different example because we're going after our company as opposed to an individual person. But I am curious, like how does that all work with when it comes to forgive?

Yeah. Yeah. So let's get philosophical for a second here. The, the injuries in injustice, right? Someone took something away that we needed or did something to us that was painful and not fair. We can articulate that though. It's, we're talking about love. What's owed to each other is love. That's the St. Paul letter of the Romans.

And so the deprivation of love is a form of injustice. And, and so justice is kind of at the foundation when, when injustice occurs. We, we become angry because anger leads us to want to put justice back in place. Anger is the, the, the emotion that actually protects the order of justice. So anger's really important.

Really good. Yeah. I argue that in the forgiveness process, the, the most integral and thorough way is that we treat. And restore justice wherever possible. So in the case of an injury, like you're naming where there was all kinds of medical need that followed upon the injury, the restoration of justice or restitution and reparation is gonna help carry the burden of those medical bills that are the result of the accident and injury that was, could have been avoided.

So justice. Fulfillment of justice disperses. A lot of the anger be precisely because anger is oriented toward the restoration of justice. What we just did very often discover is because we remember and we ruminate and we reflect it rarely stays pure anger. It becomes an EMBI type of anger, a vicious type of anger that we call resentment.

That's the stuff that even when justices restored doesn't go away. So prime example with your. Getting help on those medical bills might, um, have dispersed a tremendous burden. And technically speaking, there's an element of justice. That's restored there. However, your wife still agonizes at her own pain, uh, ruminates over what happened and is still upset about it.

And the reparation, the. Does not disperse a lot of that. That's because there's more going on than just a simple one to one desire that justice be restored because our hearts are complex. This is what happens to anybody who was hurt in their childhood and who spent a very, very long time wanting things to be fixed.

So let's say. Um, you're alienated from a parent and you haven't seen your dad in 20 years and you've spent 20 years weeping, bitter, angry, um, even violently angry at times, maybe stuck in addictions around it. If your dad just shows up and says, I wanna be back in your life. In technical terms, justice is restored.

Like in a way your dad should have been there. He wasn't, he came back, but there's a lot more stuff going on. So the pursuit of justice there and reparation might involve your dad talking through a lot of those things and apologizing, but also, um, offering to attempt to make it up. We just have to be very realistic that, that those reparations are not going to be the only thing that disperses the intense emotion, because in the end, the, the hardening hardening of a heart, um, and the demanding of, of a vengeance mindset or the slipping into a vengeance mindset, the only way out of that is either to punish.

And get things back or to be merciful. So if dad comes back in the equation or your wife, you know, receives a settlement that helps pay for the bills, there still needs to be a process of looking at the other person and noticing like, okay, even though there's some justice restored, what's happening in here and whatever residual intensity is unpleasant and, and typically resonates with something that we know is not good.

That's gonna be the place for forgiveness has to happen. So justice forgiveness, reparation, they come alongside each other. Most of the time in places of serious pain, justice is not gonna be the only thing. And reparation pertains to justice. There's gonna need to be a process of going beyond the dictates of justice and offering something back.

And that's mercy, that's kindness. That's charity, that's generosity. That's ultimately that's love where love wasn't deserved. That's what makes it such a stunningly beautiful witness. Yeah, absolutely. That makes so much sense. So basically what you're saying is it's a partial solution. Compensation is a partial solution, but there's so much more that needs to happen to free the heart of the person who is harmed.

Typically. Yeah. Especially when there's a lapse of time. I mean, if I steal something from you, that's yours and then I give it right back to you, your emotional response might be pretty quick. And the restoration of what was taken might very well disperse, all the emotion that's surrounded. Like why did he take that from me?

I needed that, or I thought I could trust him. But if that there's a delay there, if there's a time lapse, uh, you're gonna spend more time ruminating. And a lot of emotions are gonna build up that don't pertain justice, justice, and that's where forgiveness has to come into your own life. If you wanna be.

If you don't wanna have to carry these intense emotions longer than you should, and eventually get sick from them. I think there's a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding and myths about forgiveness. I wanna touch on those now and perhaps one of them. That just came to mind is forgiving someone who maybe doesn't even know how they've harmed us.

I find that a lot in this ministry, you know, again, we're working with young people who come from broken families, and a lot of times the parents are very oblivious to the harm that they cause their children, partly because the children just don't wanna speak up about it, to hurt their parents. So we kind of hold everything inside, but a lot of times the parents are just oblivious.

They have no idea. How deep of a wound, they cause by, you know, having an affair by getting divorced by abandoning the family. And so how do you deal with a person like that? And if you would touch on some of the other common myths about forgiveness. Yeah. That's, that's a huge, huge, uh, question. And I would even add like a, a more subtle, but maybe more omnipresent situation of.

Um, a lack of attention from parents that often will carry a lot of wounds. So like in birth orders, you know, if a sibling is born just after you, typically, your parents had to shift their attention to that child. And so there's a lot of attention that you had that you no longer have happens, especially for firstborns.

And that deprivation of attention causes a huge ache on the heart. Of course, multiply that out. Someone who's a, a work obsessive parent or a parent who, who left the home, it's gonna be that same pain exaggerated, but, but they, the parent. In some cases didn't even do something wrong. Like you're needing to attend to a child, they're doing what they have to do toward the other child, but you carry in your own heart, a, a certain pain at no longer having the attention that you once had.

There's gonna be a lot of work to be done there around how you, how you kind of square off with that. How you notice again, what's happening within your own heart, and then how you start that forgiveness process. So we get into a lot of technicals or just different scenarios. The first though I'd say is to remember that forgiveness happens within first and foremost.

And so if a parent doesn't know what they did or isn't able to own up to it, I mean, man, one of the most crippling things I encounter is people that, that come and say they've been waiting for like decades for an apology. And they're just hoping, you know, like hoping they'll come back, acknowledge what they did.

And offer that apology. It's just so very often, not in their ability, their wheelhouse either. They didn't recognize what they did or they're just not able to own up to it because I, people are broken and the people who have heard us, you know, whether they realize what they did or not, they may not have what it takes to, to come to us and apologize.

So we just, in places where we're still waiting on an apology, I think the great freedom of what we are learning about forgiveness is like, we're not bound. By another's repentance. We're not stuck waiting for them to realize what they did that will certainly help, you know, in the case of, of someone who hurt us, especially a parent, if they recognize what they did and they're able to repent of it, that's gonna by leaps and bounds lead us forward in the process, but we're not stuck waiting for that.

And the great hope of forgiveness is it starts now the second you're hearing this and realizing that there must be another way. With or without your parent or your family member, knowing what they did and with, or without them being able to own up to it, those are all helpful things. But this is to you in your own heart to decide, to let go of a, of kind of a intentionally or an emotionally bound up place.

And you're in charge of your own heart. They're not in charge of your heart. It would be nice for them to come back into your heart and to be able to make things right. But you're not stuck waiting for that. And, and often we just have to kind of make that admission at the beginning. I would love it. If they'd apologize, they may not.

So I'm gonna get started on moving towards freedom here. And now second major thing it's related is, is that distinction of reference before between forgiveness and reconciliation. They're often confused and we think they're the same thing. And so we think I couldn't start forgiving, maybe my parents dead, so I can't talk to 'em and so I can never receive their apology off of apology back.

Um, maybe they're dangerous. Like I said before, maybe they're just outta the picture unreachable for reconciliations. When two people come back together, And it entails when there's been an injustice between them. It entails a change in the heart or the will of both parties. So if the other party's UN repentant unable to repent, or we can't interact with them, we can't reconcile with them because they have to choose to come back into the relationship when it's reasonable, when it's safe.

So that's a more mature place to go forgiveness points toward reconciliation and, and proceeds it. But they're different things we can forgive even without reconciling. And that's a great liberation for people who are either afraid of the person who hurt them, or they don't know how to get back in touch with the person who hurt them or doesn't seem like it's possible.

Forgiveness is, is inside of reconciliation and is its own thing happens in the heart might lead to interaction. Like I said before, Ideally, it leads to reconciliation, but even if it doesn't, that doesn't limit forgiveness is, uh, your, your capacity to entering into forgiveness that liberates you from all of the intense emotion.

Those are a couple of practicals. Let me know if you want me to dig in on some more. I know I'm talking a lot. I love this stuff. No, you're, you're so good at it. I'm learning so much. You should see all the notes that I'm taking. great. And, uh, no, that, that makes so much sense. And I'm sure there's so many myths that we can go into, but that's, that's really helpful.

Connected to that. And you touched on this a little bit already. What are some of the most common barriers? Again, a lot of what you said I would, would classify as barriers as well, but are there any other barriers that you would add that prevent people from really forgiving someone who hurts them? Yeah.

I think one of the ones that I've encountered a lot, especially, and we touched upon this, but the, the, the questions of justice and that, that concern that if I forgive I'm ignoring justice, I'm skipping over. I'm letting them off the hook. But just an important reminder to people is that what forgiveness really is, is the choice that I will no longer be the arbiter of justice.

So in the place of injury, I'm trying to restore justice emotionally. I'm, I'm wound up toward fixing the situ. But I'm also really close to the situation. So I'm, it's not easy to be unbiased. And there's a reason that court systems are set up at the judge and the jury should be unbiased observers of the situation, cuz you need someone unbiased to actually dictate and determine what is justice, what would be restored?

Well, what is punishment in the place of injury? I'm kind of fulfilling the role of judge and juror, but also sufferer. And that's a little too much to bear. So forgiveness rather than skipping justice forgiveness entails the choice to leave justice to someone else. In the case that you named before Joey, there might be a civil authority.

Um, there might be a in case of criminal activity, there is there the police, but also the courts and the prison system in the case of, of in general, like our belief in the Lord, Nobody escapes the justice of God. And so even if what someone did to me is not a crime, they're not getting away from the ultimate judge.

And so I'm just choosing to, to place the responsibility of justice off of myself, onto someone else. Who's able to administer justice, um, with a greater degree of freedom, but also, um, equanimity. So that's a liberating reality, I think, just to help people see they're not stuck, uh, skipping over justice.

That's so helpful. Yeah. Oh, totally. Please. Yeah. That's so helpful. Uh, this may not be related exactly to what you're naming, but, uh, what I found. Yeah. We can relate it to the, the specific question, but I just wanna touch on self forgiveness for a second, or this idea of, of being, of being kind to ourselves really, because I do think a lack of this posture toward ourselves, it impedes our own forgiveness.

So when we hate ourselves, We are typically, uh, gonna struggle with being good to other people, including the work of forgiveness and being kind to people who don't deserve it. That's a high degree of virtue. If we hate ourselves, we don't think we're capable of very much. Self forgiveness is a debatable construct.

Technically forgiveness is between two parties because justice is interpersonal, but in metaphorical terms, I can be angry at myself. From a younger moment. I can be angry at my teenage self or my, my youth self. When I did something horrible. I can hate myself for the things that I've done and hold myself in a type of metaphorical debt that is anger toward myself or manifests just like anger.

So a really important key in all of this is actually looking within us and noticing like, am. Angry at myself, resentful toward myself. Do I experience shame a sense of self hatred, um, destructive behavior toward myself, harming myself suicidal thoughts. These all revolve around a type of self hatred. That is going to completely impede the healing process, but also the forgiveness process.

So, uh, as a way out that whole forgiveness process I named before we can actually apply that toward ourselves. And what we basically do is in the, in this, the position of the enemy or the person we're confronting or hurt us, we're just seeing our younger self from an episode or a period in life where we realize.

We did things that we wish we wouldn't have done that are still hurting us. And we can actually end up, uh, being kind to ourselves through knowing what really happened through knowing ourselves, letting that story be REW woven together and actually loving ourselves. Cut me off if I'm talking too long, but a key on self-love here.

There's this self love is this principle. That sounds so new agey and kind of like self-help book wishy washy, but it's a deeply philosophical principle and theological one as well. When Christ is teaching the commandment of love, love got above all else and love your neighbor. As you love yourself. So the ability to love our neighbors is really rests upon our ability to love ourselves.

Thomas Aquinas would develop this and say like the love with which we love a neighbor is the love with which we love ourselves. We want good for people first by discovering what it is to want good for ourselves. He even says the good know themselves truly, and must truly love themselves. And that's been a key for me, self knowledge to know myself truly helps me to love myself.

When I love myself, then I'm able to make a gift of myself. And that's the only thing that actually fulfills me when I'm stuck in my world. I'm, I'm trapped. I'm unhappy. I feel crippled when I can make a gift of myself. I discover who I really am and the gift of who I am to other people. I have to love myself before that's gonna work well.

And I have to know myself before. I can love myself. So when we feel our heart's kind of agitated, even as these forgiveness conversations rise up, a part of the process is looking in and saying aim to the heart and saying, maybe I have to address a type of forgiveness toward myself, or a type of kindness toward myself that.

I have not yet exercised. And that might be like, what's at the very core of healing, perhaps more than anything else as that starts to happen, we let go of the choke, hold on ourselves. And eventually it's easier to translate that posture of kindness toward other people because we're exercising it toward ourselves.

First and foremost, tons to say on self-love and self-forgiveness, but really I've just seen it to be such a place where we come outta shame. We come outta hiding. We come into the freedom that, that our life calls us to, especially in charity. So good. It makes me think of so many things. I remember, uh, a phrase I heard about unforgiveness, uh, you know, unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

I love that. And in this case, Applies to yourself. It's like doubly painful and it's just gonna hurt all around. And I've personally struggled with this too. Just having made mistakes in my past, especially when it comes to sexuality, unless it's been hard. Uh, it's been very hard to forgive myself, even though I've sought God's forgiveness to people.

I've heard their forgiveness. It's not an easy thing. And I think, I think you said that so well that often, maybe this is at the core of our inability to forgive other people and to truly heal because we're so busy, just punishing ourselves. And I see this a lot with people, you know, we work with who come from broken families in one way or another.

They they're often just punishing themselves. And it's so painful to watch and watch. And sometimes it's because of things they've done or sometimes their punishment, um, in, in a sort of strange way, which I know you'll understand, this is an attempt to punish someone else. And so there's a lot, there. It's some deep psychology, but.

I, I think that is so, so helpful. I'm glad you brought this up and we're just gonna have to have you back to talk about this whole idea of self love and self forgiveness, because, but what I've encountered with a lot of people, especially in the, the Christian world is that, uh, self-love seems selfish and that's not what you're saying.

You're saying no, that there's actually an appropriate ordered way to love yourself. And, uh, and I think that's so important. I wish we had more time to go into all these things. Uh, I do wanna get your advice for someone who's really struggl. To forgive someone, what what's like one thing that they can do to, to move toward forgiving someone who's hurt them.

They just haven't been able to, to forgive. Yeah. So the one great key there is just to start small, like when we're really you're naming someone who's like really struggling with pain towards someone, don't start with the big wounds and don't start with the biggest people as it were. Who hurt you? The people who hurt you the most.

That's gonna, that's kind of a recipe for frustration and even failure. If forgiveness really is virtuous activity, and it really is a set of habits that we learn and we get better at over time. We gotta start with the small things. First learn those habits. It's just like why we got training wheels on our bikes, why we learn to swim and the shallow end, we just have to kind of start small practice, learn how to go through these steps.

Learn what happens in our heart as we go through them. And then adjust our posture toward the person in those bigger places. So if there's one person you're thinking about through this whole show who just really, really hurts, you maybe make a list of all the ways they hurt you, cuz you're gonna have to confront each of those ways.

Cuz each of them is, is provoking an emotional response and then start with the smallest one, start with the one that hurts the least and just practice moving out of ill will into Goodwill and offering some sort of gift and repeat that a few times. Get your heart kind of used to it and then move up to the next one.

And the next one and the next one until eventually. Found yourself letting go of some of that bitterness in each of the ways that they hurt you. Uh, of course, as well for the Christian, this is the activity of God in us. Forgiveness is, is grace is, is, is something that God helps to achieve within us. And so to pray first that God would go and forgive our enemies, that he would soften their hearts and that he would give us, uh, a heart like his, toward them.

He who sees them in mercy and, and not in condemnation and wants them well, wants them saved. To believe that that the Lord has done this first and he'll lead us to it and he'll do it within us. And he us how to do it ever more perfectly. Father John, you are the man. If people wanna follow you and buy your books, tell us a little bit about, uh, what you've written and how they can get those books and follow you.

Yeah. A couple books from Ava, Maria, press one is a personal retreat just on getting serious about the Lord. Another is a guide to advent that's coming out or just came out right now. It's a daily reflection journal. My dissertation on forgiveness. Isn't published, it's published, but not publicly published.

I'm working on just finding someone to, to brush it up for Amazon. Self-publishing just so you can buy it, um, at an easy form and I'm working on another book on forgiveness on this, a simpler book. Just because it's, it's such an important theme and we've got a lot of resources now, but that's not done yet.

Um, social media app, father, John Burns father spelled out I'm on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook. I'm kind of a passive user of social media on there, but I, I don't do too much, but you can find me and you can reach me that way. You just gotta be patient, uh, in my response time, cuz I'm, I'm really slow at getting back to people.

It's place. I need to ask forgiveness all the time. Both of us. Thanks for saying that. I wanna give you the last word here first. Thank you so much for coming on. Everything you said has been so helpful and just, I think so many people are gonna be chewing on this and re-listening to this episode. So thank you so much for your time, for your wisdom for, uh, yeah.

Your expertise for all the years, you've put into this and condensing it down into something simple that we can learn and act on, which is the most important thing. So, uh, kind of stepping back from forgiveness, I wanted to ask you. Uh, what words of encouragement would you give to someone who feels so broken, who feels stuck in life because of the breakdown of their parents' marriage and their family?

What encouragement advice would you give? Yeah. I mean, just take hard and take hope is the word that, um, that comes as you're just even asking that Joey, like, I, I love being a priest and I love the work that I get to do with people and, and watching the fact that every time God comes to encounter us, We get better.

Like he lifts us up out of our darkness. The beginning of John's gospel, the darkness just can't overcome the light. And, and so just to, to, to know of the light, to believe in the light and to look to the light and notice that where we feel stuck and trapped, we're typically stuck kind of obsessing over the pain, the darkness, and we're staring kind of inward and stuck, um, homo in kuvaas man turned in upon himself.

The way of the believer, the way of, of the excellent man from Aristotle's categories. Is of, of self gift of looking to the horizon and of hope. And so just take hope. Uh, the story does not end in darkness does not end in our pain. It ends in, in the triumph of the good, because the good is stronger than the evil that was there.

First, the light is strong, the darkness and, and it will overcome. So take hope, look to the horizon, notice where you're stuck, staring inward break outta that, uh, begin, um, to, to beg for the gift of hope, especially from our Lord. And then just trust that you're listening to this and whatever stirred in your heart is moving in your heart for a reason.

And that is the beginning of the pathway forward. I come back to that place and set a foot on it. It's it's hard work. Uh, believe me, I I've seen so many people terrified at the beginning of the process of forgiveness, but the hard work is worth it. It's so worth. We become better. We become freer. We come to life.

So whatever's moved in your heart in, in this time. We've shared thanks for coming alongside and, and take heart in the fact that the movement within you is, is the first invitation into this new way, a movement upward outta the darkness. And, and it's a beautiful way. I promise.

So good. There was so much good content there. Honestly, I'm gonna have to go back and listen to the interview myself, and I'm the one who conducted it. So I invite you to do the same, especially if that was a lot to, to chew on. But one question you can think about to just help you make this a little bit more practical in your life is who do you need to forgive?

Who do you need to forgive? Maybe just identify one person, maybe that's your parents, maybe it's someone else who, who really hurt you. And then a second question is this, what's the smallest step that you can take this week to begin that process that we discussed. What's the smallest step and then just do it.

Forgiveness doesn't happen overnight. It happens through baby steps taken consistently over time. And so get after it, start doing it again. A reminder that my new book, it's not your fault can be purchased on Amazon. You can access that through restored ministry. Dot com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 58. Hey, thank you so much for listening. We do this for you, and if this has been useful, feel free to subscribe, but more importantly, if you know someone who's really struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#057: How Alcoholism Broke My Family Apart | Kendra Posch

Alcoholism is a major cause of dysfunction in so many families. That was certainly true for our guest’s family.

In this episode, she shares how alcoholism played a pivotal role in the breakdown of her parents’ marriage and family. We also discuss:

• Why she kept a packed bag that was always ready to go under her bed at college

• What she’d say to her parents if they were listening to this episode

• How she truly desires a good relationship with her parents, especially her estranged father

Share Your Story

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Kendra’s story: Sea of Confusion

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Alcoholism is a major cause of dysfunction. So many families. And that was certainly true for my guests and her family. Today. In this episode, we talk about how alcoholism played a pivotal role in the breakdown of her family and her parents' marriage. We also discussed why she kept a packed bag that was always ready to go under her bed at college.

She shares what she'd say to her parents. If they were listening to this episode, we also talk about how she truly desires a good relationship with her parents, especially her estranged father. And we touch on the strange dynamic she's felt in relationships going between fierce independence to the point where she doesn't let anyone in.

And then the other end of the extreme, where she has an overreliance on people to the point of an unhealthy attachment on that person. This is a solid conversation. I'm so excited to share with you. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 57. My guest today is Kendra posh. Kendra is a nonprofit director who was born and raised in Northern Minnesota.

She attended Ave Maria university in Florida, and she now lives in Denver, Colorado. Kendra has a heart for the work that ReSTOR does and for true authentic relationships, she holds her family and friends near and dear, and can also be found in the mountains or flagging down a plane for her next adventure.

Kendra's actually a family friend and fun fact. She was the first person to submit a story on ReSTORs blog her story on ReSTORs blog years ago. And so I'll tell you at the end of the episode, how you can. Submit your store, if you wanna share yours, but for now here's my conversation with Kendra,

Kendra posh. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Joey, I've been looking forward to this. We've been friends for a while. Our families are friends. And so I always joke when people come on this show, they always talk about like the darkest, most difficult things in their lives, but there is so much hope which we're gonna get to, but let's start with the more difficult things.

How old were you when your parents separated and divorced? Yeah. Broad timeline. Parents were separated when I was 14 divorced when I was 17 and then gotten in enrollment when I was 22. Lots of different points. So this dragged on for years. Yeah. And it still affects me to this day. And here I am at 27, which we're gonna get into.

So if you would, what exactly happened between your parents? What happened in your family that caused everything to fall apart? So this is the hardest story ever, but short, right? Uh, we did an intervention for my dad's alcoholism, my freshman year of high school fall. And he went to treatment. It went well, everything seemed to be looking up.

It seemed to be the next step for our family. Right. This is a way to have more engagement with each other. This is a way to move past some hurts, et cetera. Mm-hmm um, but then bam, things were turned upside down. I didn't, it didn't go well, it didn't, uh, he went to treatment. Okay. Then he left the treatment center and went on a war path for lack of a better word.

He wanted a separation. Um, his whole extended family got involved. Um, Our small town got involved. oh boy teachers were involved at school. It became a really huge convoluted mess. Mm-hmm um, and I really just didn't know which way it was up. And so if people know anything about high functioning, alcoholics, you know, that first stage when you're approached by your family, you're forced to confront your addiction, um, to whatever substance it is to just face it to face it.

It's scary. Right. And so that first stage a problem, right? That's like the 12 steps. Correct. And that first stage is denial. You don't even know I am lying. Totally. That's what they say it is. And my dad, that's why he went on a war path. Right. He didn't want to admit he had a problem and he wanted to point out everyone else's problems.

Mm-hmm and his focus was taught in my mom and we were all caught in the crossfire. Mm dang. Right. And I know that all of his siblings stepped in and the extended family stepped in because they cared about him. Totally. It just seemed like. They circled the wagons, right? Mm-hmm but they left us on the outside, who we were branded enemy.

Right. We had to choose a side. And if we chose Iran side, you were cut off. So you were seen as the villain. Absolutely. Like it's my fault, right? Yeah. I'm a product. My mom is a villain, but I'm her evil sidekick. Gotcha. Yeah. Which, I mean, it's never okay for family members to do that. Um, but something similar happened in my family, you know, there's everyone picks sides when this sort of thing happens.

And if you even give any sort of indication that you're on one side, like if you're on dad's side or you're on mom's side, then the people on the other side see you as again, an enemy and they want to attack you. And I think family members end up doing things that they normally wouldn't do just because it's such an emotional dramatic situation.

Absolutely. And so it, it turns really, really messy, really, really quick. And it was so surprising. It seemed to be so abrupt, right. This change in relationship, this change in interacting with each other, there are a lot of things that I never knew. Someone could do to someone that they loved and yes, it's misguided, but that is me speaking as a 27 year old, not speaking as a 14 year old, that was caught up in this can't imagine so quickly thereafter it was courts.

Right? My mom and dad were in court, fighting over custody, fighting over all of these things, right. Entering into the preliminary stages and litigation of divorce. I don't super know what happened in that regard. My perspective was court ordered counseling, lots of different counselors court ordered visitation with my dad.

I was the one that had to pack my suitcase every other weekend and go and spend it with him. Right. Totally. And every single time it was am bushes by different people saying, choose a side, choose a side. Right. Mm-hmm he doesn't have a problem with. Mm, there it divorces fine. Kendra. What's the big deal.

It's normal. It's normal. It's accepted. Yeah, it should be good. It's it's a way out, right? Isn't this better than them fighting all the time. Mm-hmm mm-hmm those are the typical talking points of yeah. People who don't really understand the lasting impact and often devastating impact of the breakdown of your family, of the breakdown of your parents' marriage.

Exactly. And, um, to me, my Catholic faith is really important and what the Catholic church teaches about divorce totally at odds with how my parents raised me. So seeing my dad flip on all these things that we were brought up in mm-hmm was also so disorienting. Right. And you didn't know which way it was up.

When I look back on that time and I try to place myself in those high school years, it's, it's difficult. I can't remember good times versus bad necessarily. I recognize that like my brain blocked out so much because I was in survival mode. Totally. So I think, oh, what happened when I was 16? shoot. I don't know.

I remember three big fights with my dad. Mm. I remember a really good time at a piano recital. Okay. But I remember a lot of negative times. Yeah. So then my senior year of high school, um, my mom asked, Hey, I know you're going into your senior year. I think it's time we move. Right. We were in a small town of 5,000 and you're still doing visitation at this point.

We're still doing some visitation at that point. We were also doing, um, Tuesday night dinners with my dad. Okay. Okay. It was supposed to be a quote egg that I gave, right. From the counselor. You ought to do this. Your father loves you, but they were never fruitful. yeah. Right. It was just, how can I get you to see my side?

Mm-hmm it wasn't how was school today, right? Yeah, there was no, there was no building of relationship, which was so difficult and hard because from what I knew, my dad and I were close prior to this. Right. Yeah. And, and you desired that relationship again with him. Is that right? I do. Yeah, you do now. And you, did you at that point too?

Or was it at that point still? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yep. Um, there was a set point during my high school years where an ambush was planned for lack of a better word. That's how I'm going to describe it. One of those Tuesday night dinners and we were supposed to, you know, be in public, we're supposed to be at restaurants.

And next thing I know my dad is driving us to his house and I'm a very, um, detail oriented person. I'm about timelines. I'm about schedules. And I was like, I know we have an hour and a half grin and Barrett Tundra. Then you can get back to your homework. Then you can get back to your daily life. Right.

Mm-hmm I'm 15. What else do I know? Right. So this is, yeah, my goodness. You know, been at almost a year of all this stuff. Mm-hmm and my dad ambushed me with one of his brothers. Oh boy, the ambush was supposed to be nice. It was supposed to be kind right. My uncle brought my favorite dessert. We're all gonna have dinner together, but this is a Tuesday night.

We drove 30 minutes to get here. I have a lot of homework I need to do. Right. I'm focused on what I can control and what my vocation is at that time. The student I'm a teenager. Yeah. Gosh. And when I wasn't cheerful and happy to see my uncle mm-hmm, keep in mind again, this isn't the use of circumstances I'm supposed to be in.

He's already breaking these rules. Right. You know, something's I know something's up. Yeah. I wasn't happy. I'm allowed to not be happy. I'm a moody teenager. Please gimme some slack. and my uncle ripped into me. Um, and my little sister was there with me. Just absolutely reduced. The two of us to tears, you know, dragged us up and down verbally and emotionally of just how awful we were.

You can't believe that we would ever do this. How is this loving? Aren't you Catholic? Don't you honor your father and mother. How is this happening? Actually, he admitted mother, but wow. And I sat there like crying and I just asked my dad, I said, how can you allow him to talk to me like this? Hmm. And he just looked at me and he said, you deserve it.

Someone needs to speak like this to you. And at that point I knew it's not my dad anymore. He's so wrapped up in his hurt. He cannot see through this mm-hmm right. And it was a turning point in terms of my trust with him. Mm-hmm before then I was really desiring a relationship. After that point, I recognized.

It is not possible. I do not know my father. I do not know what motivates him when it's obviously not my tears and to protect me. Mm that's so heartbreaking because he is supposed to fill that role. Right? Exactly. He is supposed to protect you and it makes sense that there would be such a fracture in your relationship with him, given those actions, the, the things that he did to you are allowed to be done to you.

And I think some people listening right now, we have parents listening right now. Right. And some of them might think, well, Kendra, you must hate your dad. And you hate your uncle. What would you say to them? Do you hate your dad? Do you hate your uncle at the time? I did. I was so hurt. I bet it was so hard, especially rightfully so.

Not just hurt for myself, but my little sister was 11 and I became mama bear during out during this whole process. and so on behalf of her too, I was angry. Mm-hmm and it just seemed so unjust. Right. I was also operating from what, as I said, a moody teenager here, right? Yeah. I didn't, I didn't have any reference point.

Makes sense. Right. And so it was, and now, again, in hindsight, like I learned more about alcoholism mm-hmm I learned more about high functioning alcoholics. I learned more about family systems and the time and space has helped me where I can see that I was hurt and I'm no longer angry about it. Okay. I'm sad still.

Right? I still wish I had a relationship. Yeah. But I also recognize that it takes two to have a relationship and you have to have that safety there. Totally. I, I, I think the reason I bring up that question about like, do you hate your dad or your uncle is because there's a big misconception among people who normalize divorce.

They think that when we talk about the harm of divorce and how people, you know, or separation, or just really dysfunctional marriage, they, they think that we're hating on our parents. When in reality, all we're trying to do is just help bring healing and growth. And in order to do that, we have to face the truth, which is often a very uncomfortable truth.

And that's where people, I think get angry and upset with what we're doing right now is because we're talking about something that's really difficult and makes people look in the mirror and say like, yeah, I wasn't the best person I did hurt these people. And so, right. We need to be able to hold both at the same time and say like, okay, this hurt.

But we also, ultimately, ideally I should say. Wanna have a good relationship with our parents. And that's what we're so focused at restored. We wanna help people to get to that point. It doesn't happen right away as you know well, but to anyone listening who is maybe thinking that no, we're here to help heal those relationships and make them stronger in the future, perhaps.

But we want that right. How can I love my parents when things are so messy? Mm-hmm right. It doesn't mean I don't love them. I love my father. Of course they do that doesn't mean I need to have a relationship with him when there is no safety there. Right. When he doesn't have the capacity to do so. Totally.

Right. His, his experience with that is. Very narrow and limited. And it's on his terms only. Mm-hmm that's not a relationship. No. And every healthy relationship requires boundaries. Like you can't, we, we did an episode on this. You can't have a healthy relationship without boundaries. Right? It's it's impossible.

And so what you're describing is like you've put boundaries in place to protect yourself, but also to protect the other person. That's what a lot of people misunderstand about boundaries is it's not just like this one way street. If someone's mistreating you by putting a boundary up and saying, no, I'm not gonna talk to you now until you change your behavior, you're actually helping the other person.

It's actually like an act of love to say that tough love, tough love, right? it's not something that they would perceive as love, but it's actually a good thing to say, like, no, you, you can't treat me like that. And I won't allow it. And I'm not gonna have a relationship with you until you change that.

Exactly. Exactly. And teenagers are going to be moody. They're gonna be teens and you have to let them be that you can't expect them to treat, uh, this divorce and this messiness. like, they're an adult. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, , that's unfair. Right? It's being done them. Yeah. Right. I'm not, I'm not trying to like build victims or anything here, but they did not choose you guys to be married.

They did not choose you guys to go through a divorce. Mm-hmm right. And to, and to break the family, right. Obviously parents have to make decisions within like their own steam of things, but you need to let your kids be kids. I am by no means perfect in my interactions with my dad. Right. I again, remember all of the fights.

Yeah. It doesn't mean I was nice. I was always logical. Definitely bet. Yeah. Which was almost worse. um, knowing I was always logical and I just would present logical fallacies to my dad and, you know, he didn't like that. um, And that's okay. That doesn't mean I should be berated for my behavior, because if my father is acting like a child, I'm allowed to act like a child, cuz I'm also a child.

We had family members who were very angry and who kind of ganged up and attacked my siblings. And I, we I've had recently situations. There was situation with my dad where there was some disagreement. And at one point he asked us my siblings and I in like a group text message that he asked us to be like honest with him.

And so I took the opportunity and I wrote out a text message. Like I, I was careful not to like send it right when I wrote it, but I wrote it, I reviewed it and then I sent it. And one of the things I said was what you just said is like dad, like we never asked for this, like we never asked for you and. To break apart.

We never asked for you guys to get divorced. We never asked for a broken, dysfunctional family. Like we wanted a healthy and whole family. Yes. Like we wanted that so badly and it's just really sad that it was taken from us. So I agree with what you you're saying. We don't want people to remain victims, but it is okay to acknowledge that at one point you were a victim and people who, children of divorce are very much so victims, but we're just not meant to stay there.

Correct. We need to move through that. We need to grieve the loss. And, but I think acknowledging that you. This was done unto you, is it is crucial. Exactly. Because it was not your fault that your parents got divorced. Exactly. That's why our new book is entitled that cause no, it it's, it's kind of, it sounds silly when you tell someone that like why in the world would you blame yourself for it, but we do it.

And what I've come to is that often we do that because it gives us some semblance of control over a situation. That's very chaotic. It's like if I, if I could at least look back and see, well, maybe I could have done this differently. I could have done that differently. Then maybe we feel some level of control in otherwise control list.

If that's a word situation. Exactly. There are so many phone calls I can remember countless hours spent on the phone with my dad trying to reason with him. Mm-hmm right. Trying to just reason with him of, you know, alcohol or, you know, different things because in my mind, as a 14 year old or 15 year. if I can get him to accept this, mm-hmm maybe he will accept some sort of culpability for fracture in our family.

Yeah. And maybe then I can reason with him to show him, dad, I see that you're struggling with this and I still love you. Yeah. What can we do, right. Amen. Yeah. You can't reason with someone who's in the denial stage. That's the problem. And I didn't know that at that time mm-hmm so there's lots of tears, lots of phone calls.

Um, again, as I said, like my dad and I, in my perspective had a pretty close relationship. I was close with both my parents and to have that fracture and disintegrate so quickly and easily was huge, huge wound. Let's get into more of that too. When it comes to the wound, the wounds always have effects on us.

Right. We often react to them in different ways. Uh, how did you react to yeah. Just everything that happened in your life, your parents broken marriage, dealing with your dad's alcoholism. Like what were those effects? On you in particular? Yeah, I was angry. It doesn't mean I showed people my anger, but internally I was angry because this was not right.

Mm-hmm um, I'm a very logical and analytical person. And guess what? It isn't fair to have to be more mature than your parent. It was so difficult. It isn't fair. Or just to be the one to pack the suitcase. Right? Why can't he do that? Mm-hmm why do I have to be the one to drive four hours? It isn't fair to be asked by relatives to just let it go.

It's not that big of a deal. They're happier now. Mm-hmm right. It isn't fair to be the one to ask, to check your emotions and all of those things. So I dealt with anger, but I also knew, like, I felt like my emotions were wrong. Right. I'm supposed to love my parents. How can I love them when I'm angry? Mm. Um, and so I wore a mask, I shut down my emotions.

I, and I became so externally motivated and a perfectionist, right? Hmm. No one at my school, unless you were close to me or were in my, um, tine group. And even then they were shocked. Mm-hmm could guess that I was struggling with so much. Hmm. I threw myself into what I could control, which were my extracurriculars and my grades.

Yeah. You looked like you were thriving on paper from the outside. Everything was perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I was involved with my church. I was involved in extracurriculars. I was doing really well in school. I had great relationships and friends, you know, with things at school, but it was a veneer. I was very cool and collected.

Right. Which can also be a way to irritate someone, which I had quickly found out. Yeah. Right. And when you're always calm and someone can't get a rise out of you during an interaction, but I was shutting down my heart. I wasn't actually engaging with anything. and this became difficult for all relationships with parents, with my siblings, with friends, with family, with guys, all of it.

Yeah. And also all of that, again, I became fiercely fiercely independent. No one was going to hurt me like this again. Right. You wouldn't, you wouldn't let them, you wouldn't let anyone in to even have the chance to do that. Right. And so I disengaged, I sacrificed connection for the sake of autonomy. Wow. It was my survival mechanism.

Right. Do I regret those decisions? No, it's what I needed at the time. And it's in reflection and, and growing that I can, I can look back and I can see that that's powerful. You said you were a perfectionist. I think a lot of people, some people fall into that camp as well. When we're reacting to trauma in our lives, we just tidy everything on the outside, but everything on the inside is a total mess.

Right. And some people are the opposite where they just let their external reflect their internal. So it's like, everything's a mess inside and outside. But other people like I'm one of those, I'm like you where yeah. I make the outside look so perfect. Like so tidy. It's a beautiful facade. Exactly. And so no one would ever be able to know.

And I think that's partly why people like us. Um, are often misunderstood because we often like do really well in some areas of life, like our careers, you know, sports school at the risk of sounding arrogant. I remember the, like the day I found out that my parents were getting a divorce. I was away at school.

This is after they had separated years prior. It things at home had fallen apart. When I went off for my first semester, um, at a four year college. And so I got this call from my mom and I didn't want to tell anyone, I didn't wanna burden anyone with that, which isn't a good mindset. You should open up to people to everyone listening.

Don't do this alone. It's too much for you to bear and people wanna love you and help you through it. But a lot of the people around me, I didn't feel like they could maybe handle. The heavy stuff that I was going through, so I didn't wanna burden them with it. So I just held 'em on side and my way of coping oddly at that point was school kind of like what you said.

Right? And I literally, this again sounds super arrogant, but I literally aced a test. The day after I found out my parents were getting divorced because I, I just like. Poured myself into it. I didn't always a ACE tests. Don't hear me wrong people but, um, yeah, I, I just poured myself into it. So I think a lot of times we like run from some areas of our lives and then thrive in other areas of our lives.

Because those areas that we run from are just so broken. Right. And so difficult to deal with. Right. Like I said, emotionally, I was dead, externally numb. Fantastic. Right. It's a thing I could control. I threw myself into it and again, to an unhealthy degree, but that was my coping mechanism. When I was in high school.

I wanna see if you could relate with this. I felt so numb. Like I felt, I almost felt like I didn't have a heart in my chest. Oh, a hundred percent. Yes. Yeah. Like I wanted to, I, I like had this desire to be so happy and to live life to the fullest and just like, find so much joy. And all I really felt was just like numbness.

Like I, I was going through the motions. I was doing what I should do the right thing to do, but I just felt so numb. So that sounds like what you were going through as well. Right. I remember. Different conversations. I would have with friends where they're opening up to something. And I remember being so emotionally disconnected and reminding myself, Hey, you're kind of acting like a robot you ought to say.

Hmm. I'm so sorry here. Like I remember trying to coach myself to connect with my friends. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean to laugh. It's just a funny conversation, but it is listen to in your head. That's oh, my self-talk was so interesting, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I would say high school numb mm-hmm sea of confusion.

Total fo didn't know when she was up. No compass whatsoever. Right. I cl to my faith and I clung to my identity as, um, a mama bear to my sister. Okay. She didn't want a mom. She wanted a sister. Hmm. You only need one little sister. And that was my coping mechanism. Right. I really, I delved into that. So then when I go to college, right, I go to college down in Florida.

It's a long ways for Minnesota. And my freshman year, I had a suitcase packed and READi underneath my bed at all times. Why? Well, my little sister still had to go see my dad. Hmm. And if my mom had to leave for a business trip, she had to go see my dad. And if my, if things were bad, I was 18. I could be present.

I'm an adult that she did stay with. But that also meant I wasn't actually getting involved at college. I wasn't delving into myself and all these different opportunities that were there again, emotionally, externally, I was doing great, but being in a constant state of flight of ready to run there at a moment's notice.

You sacrifice so, so much. Wow. That's so moving and yeah, I don't even know what to say to that. It's just so sad that, and, and kind of shocking to people who don't understand your background, don't understand like this sort of trauma. Um, they probably could never understand, like why you would do something like that, but it makes my own roommate didn't even know.

Right. It makes so much sense though, you know? Right. I was, I was ready to flee to moments' notice to be there for my baby sister. Not because she asked it, not because my mom asked it, but it was the way that I could help in that situation. I remember. All the phone calls I had with my little sister mm-hmm we would talk a lot and I always could tell a marked difference whenever she was with my dad.

She even told me, well, it's not as bad with you, not here, cuz at least there's no arguing. Right. Cause it's true. I did. I was in Cindy with my dad. Yeah. Right. As I said, you know, I definitely provoked and was always like logical or just would shout. Yeah. You would stand up to him. Yeah. I would stand up to him versus my sister's tactic was to be passive and that's that's her decision.

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. She, uh, she knows what she has to do to deal with that situation. Sure. I just hated the transformation that would happen. Right. And I'm sure she saw the same with me whenever with dad, I am more angry. I'm more outspoken. I'm more aggressive. Mm-hmm that I saw with her. She's more dormant.

She's less herself. She's so quiet. I can't talk to her on the phone. Yeah. And so I was just ready to change that at a, at a drop of a hat. Wow. If I can protect her from that. Right. I was still in mama bear mode. Yeah. Not, not a big sister mode. Have you talked to her about that? Absolutely. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Yeah. We talked a few years ago, you know, it's always so funny when you open up, especially like to a sibling or to someone who's in that family system. Mm-hmm, compared to someone removed from it and to, and it's harder . Yeah. Right. And so I just told her I'm. You know, I know you needed a big sister. I know that now.

Um, I operated the best I could and you know, I'm sorry. And she, you know, she just forgave me and she goes, oh wow. I have a completely different take of events. interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so it was really, really healing, um, in that way. And I just have been focusing more on being her bitch sister or just a sister right now that she's an adult.

We're all adults now. Right. I have four sisters. We're all graduated from college, all autonomous sweet it, the relationships differ. Right. I mean, I still will only ever have one baby sister mm-hmm and she knows that. Yeah. And every once in a while, I'll check myself and say, sorry, went to mama bear it's.

So I think it's so natural. Like I'm, you know, one of the oldest in my family I'm number two and. I think it's so natural to be super protective. I, I know I was, we won't go into that right now. Right. You'd rather take the bullets instead of them having it a hundred percent always. Yeah. How else did you see the effects of your broken family?

Parents' marriage impact your dating relationships? Oh, if you're comfortable sharing. Oh, absolutely. Um, I have a core wound of feeling like I am not enough, like I'm not lovable in and of myself. Cause because if I was my dad would've stayed. Right, right. That'ss the whole self talk. That's so thing. Yeah.

Right. That's what I think. But it's paradoxical because my fear is also that I am too much. Right. I don't wanna rock the boat. It was so much easier in the family system to not be the one that messed up. Right. Cuz then all the fingers pointed at you. One counselor described it as, uh, the game of tag. Hmm.

If someone pointed out something to you mm-hmm Hey Kendra, you didn't finish your homework. Or, Hey Kendra, you didn't do your chores. I would immediately flip it and point at a different sibling and say, but she didn't do this. Something that was more grievous deflect, you deflect. But at the same time, you're tearing down that interpersonal relationship with the sibling because you were putting them in harm's way.

Mm-hmm mm-hmm right. So as much as I said, I would take bullets for my little sister. I was also seemingly happy to shun her into that because I was so worried about myself. So that that's what the deem of tag is. You're constantly pointing out someone else's faults, mm-hmm to deflect from your own. Wow.

And it's messy and it is not a healthy way of having a relationship. Everyone's all of your relationships, basically. Right. And I did that because I learned it in my family system. I brought it into romantic relationships. Don't rock the boat. Hmm. So I'm a very independent woman. I'm fiercely energetic.

I'm always doing something. And that I recognize is attractive to like the guys that, you know, I've been in relationship with. Totally. But then I turn into a door mat. Which is not me whatsoever. Yeah. Because I don't wanna rock the boat. I wanna, I don't wanna be, um, too high maintenance or too much. Right.

And so it was so patently false to my identity though. Mm-hmm right. They would ask me a word of, I want to eat tonight again, something so simple. And there's jokes about this and talks about this. If the woman doesn't know, I always know. Yeah. I have an opinion about everything. Even if you asked me in the moment I will form one.

Yeah. And I would be like, oh, I dunno, whatever you want. Right. I would just roll over with everything. Yeah. Or it'd be, I have to make this work cuz I have to do love. Right. Cuz my parents didn't. Hmm. And so there were so many red flags that would ignore. Oh. But like you just have to love them. No, one's perfect.

Kendra. You're not perfect by any means. So what can you do? That's something I struggle with as well. Um, in my day and relationships, I. I had this like fierce sense of loyalty almost to the level of like a marriage, cuz I just didn't. I never wanted to abandon someone and correct. That felt breaking up with someone felt like abandoning them.

So even in relationships where I was like, well, I don't know this isn't really going that well. I dunno if I could see myself marrying them. But I can't like leave them. I can't abandon them. Like that would be repeating what my parents did to me and I, right. That's not what love is. I can never do that.

And so it just misconstrued, I put way too much commitment into a dating relationship, which isn't meant to have that level of commitment. So I hear you. And I think, I think that it is a common struggle, but it's so interesting. Cause I, you know, knowing you as a friend, it's like you are so again, outspoken, opinionated in a good way.

Like, you know what you are. I like to think so you're, you're like a hard charger you get after it, you get stuff done. You're one of the most productive people I know. And so to see you flip, that's so interesting and it probably is super confusing for you when you're looking in the mirror and be like, who, who are you?

I would ask myself that a lot. I mean, you also recognize it when, I mean family or origin, when you go back and you're back home for Christmas and you are not yourself. Oh gosh. And you recognize it, but you don't know what to do about it. Right. And you just feel torn. I would say the other thing with like dating relationships and that emotional intimacy.

Again, I struggled with that with friends. Of course. I'm gonna struggle over during dating, right. A hundred percent. So there I did not date in college. Okay. Yeah. I emotionally dated. Sure. And emotionally dated just means it's an extended talking period. You would go to math together, but it was never actually dates.

It's like a flame. It was a flame, but I gave it so much pressure. And so, because I put so much pressure on it, right. The first date was such a big deal to. Which again, dating should be done in a very intentional way, but it was so out of proportion to reality that I would either be way too invested and turn into a doormat or completely just cut them off.

I would, as one friend said it in college, I would snip them, snip the guy. I would just drop all connection and just be done because the last thing I wanted to turn to with my daddy problems was a guy mm-hmm I hear you. We're done cut. 'em off. Yeah, you cut 'em off, but you're not giving anyone a chance. I had such a, it was such a weird paradox of having this high pressure on love and relationships mm-hmm but also once you were in it, having such low stage such low standards mm-hmm and so there were a lot of opportunities.

I never pursued because, oh, he just doesn't get it. Or he made that one comment about my dad. So he will never understand mm-hmm right. Cause he never talked about it. Of course. He's not gonna understand mm-hmm no one should understand from the get go. Yeah, right. You build intimacy. It doesn't happen in a deep dive on the first encounter.

Yeah. Especially with people who don't come from broken families, like it takes an, an extra effort for them to even try to understand what you're going through. Right. And it was everyone I, I thought, right. And again, it was my own self. Doing people viewed me as perfect. I had my life put together. I had dealt with these things cuz you assume you deal with them to be able to do this.

It's false. I hadn't dealt with them but I, at the same time simultaneously, I was like, I, they put me on a pedestal. They don't know how messy and unlovable I really am. Mm-hmm right. So I'm dealing with this and it would flip depending on the guy, depending on the situation. And honestly it was just tiring, which is why I typically just sniffed it.

And I was like, I don't know how to deal with this because I don't know how to deal with emotions. We're gonna cut it off. It's exhausting. It is. I don't have time for it either. Cuz I'm not hardly sleeping. right, right. I was so wrapped up in everything. Bottom of my total pole, even though my deepest desire is to be a wife and mom was to work on that because that's so interesting.

And it's, and it's that core wound of like, well, my dad left, why wouldn't he leave two? Yeah. And it's almost easier to suffer the consequences of being alone than it is to risk being with a guy who then discovers, I don't actually want to be with you or you're not enough, right. Or you're too much or you're unlovable or whatever lie.

Right. That we believe that when you're thinking in the future, you're thinking like I would rather just be alone. And I think that's where a lot of people are at right now, because then you can't hurt me. Right. It's just this big defense mechanism. Right. And it's such a lie because the right person and a good person.

So in your case, a good man, in my case, a good woman will be able to work through those challenges, right. To work through that brokenness, to show you. Not solely, but as an important person in your life that no, you are enough and you're not too much and you are lovable and you are good and you are worth fighting for, and you are worth sticking around for, but man, it's scary and you don't really know it until you go down that path.

So I remember for me, you know, my first serious relationship was end of high school, beginning of college mm-hmm and, uh, it was so scary. Like I was just terrified and so anxious. And she came from a really, really good family and that made me feel even more so that like, I couldn't open up to her cuz she couldn't understand.

And if I did, she might be like really thrown off and freaked out by like, man, you're kind of a mess inside, even though everyone thinks you are like perfect. Right. Um, which is a huge joke, um, that anyone in my life would've thought I was perfect, but um, I gave off the impression kind of like you did.

Right? So man, there's so much there. Um, any thoughts on that before we move. Only that I was so focused on everything during college. Again, I, I sniffed people. Mm-hmm, that my, my first real relationship wasn't until post-grad. Yeah. Um, which is a big learning experience for me in emotional intimacy and connection and not sacrificing yourself for the sake of connection.

And there's a lot that can be impact there. And it's like this pendulum swing I did mm-hmm right. Um, if you view relationships on a spectrum, right where the, the mean the middle. is the ideal mm-hmm and you're naturally gravitate towards one of the two vices, right? One of the two bad ways to do relationship yeah.

And access or deficit. So for anyone listening, who doesn't quite understand this, it's like, you can go wrong in either of those directions. So access would be too much and deficit would be not enough. Exactly. So let's picture spectrum of relationship right. Too much would be enmesh. You sacrifice self for the sake of connection.

Mm-hmm , which is what I did in every romantic relationship and over reliance on the person, they almost determine your happiness and your wellbeing. Right. And it doesn't matter what I think, as long as we're together, but it's so much better when we're together. I'm sure. Some of you have heard these phrases before.

Totally. I, that was my self talk, every romantic relationship. And then on the flip side, right on that deficit side would be sacrificing connection for the sake of autonomy. Mm right. Remember when I was describing how I robotically, talked myself through emotional intimacy with my friends. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Cause I, I was constantly sacrificing connection because I wanted to find out who I was, I needed to delve into that and it's a pendulum swing. So I'm naturally inclined to disengage from things. Right. I didn't know, emotional intimacy. It wasn't gonna delve into it. And I saw out other things, but then when I went romantic, it swung the other way and it was totally enmeshed.

Hmm. Yeah. And it was complete sacrifice of self for the sake of connection. Wow. No relationship is worth that that's not authentic and true and healthy connection. That middle yeah. Is able to connect without sacrificing self where it takes you. When you're in the middle, is it challenges you to become a better, healthier, stronger, more whole person?

You have to be vulnerable, right? It's hard. And in those opposite, those, those extremes that we're talking about, they both of them lead you to be, you know, a second rate version of yourself, a less best version of yourself, right? It's not what you're told to me. No, it's not authentically you so much there.

I wanna shift a little bit to the, a happier topic of healing and growth and healthy coping and all of that. So I'm sure we could talk forever about this, but what were one or two things that have helped you cope and heal the most in your life? Three things, counseling, counseling, counseling. Nice.

honestly, I, I mentioned that I was brought between all of this court ordered counselors. We flipped from, you know, this one to that one to everything I know it's like in, when I found a C. Again, not family counseling, not group counseling, but someone for me, I pursued out of my own accord. Not because the court told me to or anything.

Mm-hmm it helps so much. Wow. And this is a recent thing, right? So this happened within the past, um, 18 months, I started going to counseling. I, I had done, you know, different spiritual directions for lack of a better word. You meet with like a religious leader and you, you strive for virtue, right? It's like a spiritual coach.

Yeah. They help you grow as a person, grow a relationship with God. They recognize, um, the big tenets of your life, those big rocks that are in place that motivate you and how you make decisions. But a counselor has the tools to help you through this nastiness that happened, right? The emotional side of special, the emotional side of things, and to learn these tools and everything.

So finding a counselor, building that trust, it takes time, but I promise you, it is worth it. Don't flip from counselor to counselor. Well, let me take that back. unless they're not, sometimes it's not a good fit. Sometimes it's not a good fit, right? Yeah, yeah. Fair. But when you find that you need to give it a chance mm-hmm I am by no means having a perfect method for things.

And I, by God's, you know, Providence stumbled upon this counselor who specializes in family systems and addiction, and she has the same belief system as me. So it matches up really, really well. Dang. Yeah. Right. So it's not denying right. if I'm a Catholic and I have this view of divorce, I need someone that can empathize with that view.

Mm-hmm of why it's a big deal for me. Yeah. Why it hurts so much. Yeah. And I've been to counselors that, you know, they're a Christian and it's different, but like, oh, worst case scenario. It's always okay. That doesn't help me cuz that's not my belief system. So it was so important having that for me and then to see her regularly at the beginning, um, it was every week I was seeing my dad for the first time in nine years and I needed to talk to someone about it.

Yeah. And so I watched into that first session and I unloaded you will just say she made so many notes. Wow. And you know, after eight months I was able to taper off into every other week and um, and it, and it, and it can fluctuate sometimes it's every third week. Sometimes it's back to every week. Mm-hmm depending on what I need, but it's so good to have someone who is removed from my family system.

Who has a knowledge and experience to help me learn these tools and for someone to help me have compassion for myself, she knows me recently. I was just meeting with her and she knows how agitated I'm dating about the family holidays. Mm y'all know, this it's difficult, even if you don't have to choose between mom and dad, even just seeing family so difficult.

And it should be such a jolly time of year, but it's not. There's so many emotional expectations and, um, and ideals and everything set on it where it can get so messy. And it's, again, this is recent. My counselor sent me down and she's like, this is not you mm-hmm, let's work on this. Right. And to have someone that knows me and you can call me out of my space and bring me back to what I'm striving to be.

Mm-hmm, , it's beautiful. And it's so safe because we've built that trust. I wish everyone could have that access. And everyone could have that shorty of someone that is in the, their corner, not mom or dad's corner, your corner to challenge you to talk about your goals of who do you wanna be? How can we get there?

What are the biggest things that you're dealing with right now? Mm-hmm I talked to her about everything, right? Nothing is off the table because we've built that trust. Some weeks is said, dude, I will be honest. Some weeks it's it's work right. Some weeks it is, um, my parents or my siblings or whatever it is.

And it's the fact of the matter is like this hurt was done unto you and it affects every facet of your life. It doesn't just affect romantic relationships, not just mother and daughter relationships or with my dad or whatever. I found it, it, it happens to me in the workplace. Mm-hmm right. Where all these different things happen.

I become a doormat and all of a sudden I'm like, wait, mm-hmm , that's not me. So that's one, a second for me is prayer. Faith is a huge part of my life. And being able to delve into that with a creator who creative me out of love and for love combats, that lie that I have of I'm not lovable, cause that's vital for me too.

And that third thing is having, having people who, um, are outside of it. I have a beautiful example of marriage, um, and Noelle and Stan, this wonderful couple. They are not a replacement father and mother. I'm just gonna clarify that they are not, they are my friends and it's an intergenerational friendship because you know, they're older in their forties.

They have adult children. That's. But they are so removed from my family environment that it's so nice to have an outside perspective. Right. I have friends who are from broken families and who are not from broken families, but they're also at my same stage of life. So I strive to not have an echo chamber in my life.

I fully recognize that I can always learn something from someone and Stan and Noel are for me, ways of calling me onward ways of showing me examples, ways of saying you realize you're being crazy right now, right. Hendra, right. To force me to take a step back. Yeah. Because I can get so caught up into things again, I'm opinionated, but also doormat.

So it's like this weird balance where she will call me out and say, you have an opinion, you know, what is it? What do you want versus you need to pack off. You're being a little crazy right now with that guy, Kendra. Right. It's it's a whole gamut of things. Yeah. And to. not just an example of marriage, but have a confidant that is outside of that.

And can they're I'm too close to the painting. This is what one of my dear friends told me, FEDA, Rita, God, rester, soul. You're so close to the painting. 10, you can't see the full picture. You're so focused on the brushstrokes. You don't know what the full image is. And Noel constant re reminds me of that.

Take a step back even, and this is, um, and it's hard because when I become emotionally invested, cause I'm trying to work on this. How do I take a step back without shifting all the way to disengagement mm-hmm mm-hmm and she knows that, um, she's another confidant that I can go to. That is safe. We've built trust mm-hmm right.

And yes, she knows, you know, my parents. Yes. She knows like some siblings and things, but I know she's in my corner and that will call me on to be like that version of myself that I so desperately desire. I love that. One thing that we've talked about before in this show is like a lot of our brokenness in the trauma in our lives has come from relationships.

And that's pretty much always the case for anyone who's been through trauma. And so naturally the antidote is good, beautiful, healthy relationships. And I love that you have the counselor. I love that you have a relationship with God. And also that you have this beautiful, married couple that you can look to to replace the broken model of marriage that you have in your bones.

Like it, it literally goes down to our bones. Like it's kind of insane. It's not just something we can think about and flip on and off. It's literally something that we have to like work out of our systems by replacing with what it should look like, what a marriage should be. And so I love that and I found that super healing as well with I've had a couple couples in my life who.

Um, have done that for me too. And just, just being in their presence is healing. Isn't it? That's just, that's amazing. It's oh, I'm always looking at tickets flying back out to see new Orleans Stan, and you've spent quite a bit of time with them and that's an important point. It's not like when people hear that, they're like, oh, cool.

You've, you know, maybe talked to them on the phone or you've, I don't know, spent a, like, Dinner with them here or there, but no, you're talking like you've spent quite a bit of time with them. Yeah. I would say that our relationship really, really blossomed actually during COVID I had, you know, been seeking.

I was trying to, I was making these big decisions in my life. What do I do? And Noel and I were coworkers. Right. And she just offered, um, me like, Hey, if you wanna take a retreat from the world, right. COVID everything's shut down. I can't go to a retreat center to like, take a step back, take a week off and gather my thoughts and try to figure out what the heck I want from life.

What do I want for myself? She offered me their Airstream, which is sitting in their driveway. Nice. She goes, we won't bother you. We will let you do your silent retreat. You know, here's a car. If you wanna drive to the local church or anything, but like we will deliver meals to your door. What do you need?

Dream service. Nice. It was lovely, but it was the first time someone asked me, what do you need? No one ever asked me that during my parents' divorce. Hmm. It was always, you have to do this for your dad. This is how you love your mom. This is how you do this. She simply said, what do you need? We'll do it. Hmm.

No expectations. So I stayed with him. I did a whole week there and then went back to Minneapolis, Minnesota, as we all know what happened. And end of may, early June, 2020, a lot of turmoil came up in my city and it was just aggravating. Um, this, this piece I'd gotten from that week out in Northern Washington, mm-hmm so immediately flew back and I spent a month there and I lived with them still in the camper, but I, I came inside for meals, but I was able to witness their family tapestry.

I was able to spend a lot of time processing and talking with them. I'm a very external processor. And to be able to talk through scenarios or different things, it was so life giving to learn a different way. I saw how they dealt with conflict, right. There by no means perfect. They will be the first to admit that they are by no means.

Perfect. And I found such a piece there because of the acceptance, the acceptance of me. warts and all, yeah, it was, it was past the, the veneer of everything I was doing at work. Like I said, she was my coworker. Mm-hmm she quickly saw past that and people do people quickly see past it. Do either of them come from broken families.

Just curious, uh, to an extent like their families are intact in terms of marriage, but they've dealt with their own forms of crazy dysfunction. Okay. Dysfunction. I would say the biggest thing that I've learned from them is just because that was an unspoken family. doesn't mean you need to perpetuate it.

Wow. That's I learned that both from them as well as from counseling mm-hmm and when you break a family rule, prep will hit the fan. Yeah, it will. And it will be in the most, um, seemingly lovingly way. It has to be this way or that way, or, wow. You're gonna be ditching someone if you do that. Like how, how is that love?

Aren't you being selfish with your actions? All of this stuff is gonna pop up, but when you have those reference points for me, that's again, no Orleans stand it's my counselor. it's it is Christ to help keep me sane in this tumultuous storm. That's what I've anchored my ship to. That's awesome. Reference points to show you like what's healthy and what's not, which I think is so, so important.

I love what you said about, you know, Noel asking you, like, what do you need? Because so often, um, I mean, that's like tear provoking, like it's beautiful. So often what happens when your family breaks apart? When your parents get divorced or separated, whatever. Your needs are totally forgotten to the point where you feel the need to feel, fill your needs in ways that are not healthy.

Right. And that's exactly what I struggled with, you know, years ago in my life, when it came to struggling with pornography or other unhealthy ways of coping, like isolating myself, things like that, it was all an attempt to fill, like in real need that I had in a really crappy way. And, but it's all you knew.

Right? And I think that's what happens so often is like, we're just left on our own to fill our own needs. And that's often where that fierce independence comes from. And so it's so beautiful that someone asked you, like, what do you need? Like, it's such a simple phrase, but it's like, man, so, so beautiful.

Um, so much we can talk about, I do wanna ask you if you can contrast your life years ago to now, uh, what is different in, in a few words, like what what's different, how, how has it gotten better? And I know you're still working through. Stuff as we all are, but yeah. How is life different for you now? Right.

Like I, I mentioned at the beginning, this is the hardest story ever, but it doesn't set me off right. Emotionally to be able to discuss or look back on it. And again, I attribute a lot of this through counseling to give me the tools to be able to do this. I know so much more about my natural virtues and vices.

I know so much more about my inclinations and my brokenness of thi of wounds that I've done of wounds others have done on to me. Right. It's both. And, but I now like have learned tools to deal with the difficulties. I still mess up. I still feel absolutely I can analyze breathe and, and an attempt to like solve a situation.

But I'm actually able to use these tools from counseling to like take a step back mm-hmm . And I have that space where I I've been able to grow in self knowledge. And to me that's the most powerful type of knowledge. Why is that so helpful? So does someone listening, they might hear you say things like.

Self knowledge. And I didn't mean to cut you off. I think this is important. They hear you say things like self knowledge. They hear you say things like compassion to yourself. Someone might be like, that's kind of like this flaky kind of touchy, feely, touchy, feely. Oh, wait I with my emotions again, right?

Yeah. Right. So, so why is that? So on a practical level, like why is that so important to know yourself? Why is this so important to have compassion to yourself? Well, those are two separate questions. I would say fair. So self knowledge is important because when you start to learn more about yourself, you can start to reflect on different situations and your trigger points.

You can start to build that environment and boundaries that help make you feel safe and secure, where you don't lash out right at a family gathering. Why? Because you did a workout that morning, or you were able to take that alone time, or you're able to nip an argument in the bud. Someone gave you some critical feedback and you have a right.

You've learned to say, feedback is a gift. It doesn't mean you have to do something about it. Mm-hmm and you say to that person, thanks for that advice. I can, I appreciate that. You care. Yeah. And then you say, you know what, I'm gonna go for a walk. Right. And you might need some space to like, deal with that, knowing that you need that space is self knowledge.

Okay. Right. And then you can deal with more difficult situations. You can learn to build those boundaries where you don't feel like you're in survival mode where you don't go into blocking out emotions. Like, as we said, we were numb in high school. Totally. Right. You learn those different tools and that's right.

It's so vital because you know more about yourself. You then learn what you need. So you can give mm-hmm and giving is how you build a relationship. And that vulnerability and emotional intimacy, I can build a relationship with my father, without him being my confidant. And it's hard to get to that point.

And it's hard to think about that, cuz he's my dad. He. Ought to be the one protecting his little princess. Right? Sure. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. And so self knowledge is so, so powerful. It's so foundational. So basically what it's helped you do if I'm hearing you right. Is it it's helped you learn to navigate these really challenging situations without blowing up without melting down without becoming numb.

It's helped you in short to become a better you and happier you and a more whole you, the best version of myself. There you go. Right. And again, I'm, there are a lot of times where I still mess up, right where I leave an interaction with a family member and I'm like, shoot, I really, really mess that up. And I knew I was doing it in the moment, but if I can reflect back on it, I can see what my trigger points were.

Mm-hmm um, and so then I can start to reflect. The next best thing would be. I start to recognize it in the moment of like, wow, I am actively needling my sister right now. Right. Because I am feeling unsafe for whatever reason. Mm-hmm and sometimes that could be as simple as I didn't eat right before I talked to her.

Totally. Right. I'm just way more hangry. Yeah. So don't call someone when you're angry. Right. It's so it's as simple as that for me, right. To a much more complex and situational thing. Right? Sure. Sure. It's through that self knowledge where then I. One reflect, see where I messed up two. Maybe I can recognize it in the moment.

And then you hopefully build up two. You can recognize it before it happens so you can prevent it. And that's why it's so powerful. Yeah. No, that's it. That makes so much sense. And then the compassion portion of it, it kind of goes hand in hand, but what, uh, what else would you add? I guess to that question, if someone's thinking like, that sounds so corny, why is it actually really helpful and good?

This is something that I've been working on this past year with my counselor, right. Where she's like, you need to have compassion for yourself and I'm sitting there like, why , why is this so vital? Yeah. But it's, it's vulnerability. It's learning that emotional intimacy and it's learning how to. forgive myself and what I mean by forgive myself.

It's forgive myself for when I look back and I see all the ways I messed up, right with my dad, with my siblings, with my little sister, with my mom, with friends around me again, I was an angry mean person and very calm, cool, and collected where I made it seem like it was your fault. You were exploding. I needed to have compassion.

That that was all I knew. I need to be able to look back and like engage with my 14 year old self of like, Hey babe, it's okay. It's not your fault that your parents divorced. It's not your fault. You feel unloved. It's not your fault. You feel so lost. And that's where that compassion is vital because I'm then engaging my emotions and I'm engaging my heart.

I'm learning to forgive myself because if I can do that, I can start to learn to forgive others too. Like the difficult others, not the easy others. Sure. The difficult ones that involve lot more of your emotional capacity. Wow. That's important. That's not some corny, phony thing. That's really key. And I think when it comes to healing trauma, that seems to be one of the core tenets of any sort of trauma therapy is that you'd come to some level of giving yourself grace.

Maybe that's a different way of putting it, right? It's like, you're, you're kind of letting yourself off the hook in some ways in inappropriate ways, right? You're saying like, man, it it's understandable that you acted this way. It's understandable that you did these things and it's helpful when you have compassion for yourself.

And sometimes, you know, it can flow one way or another. For me, I needed compassion for self first, before I could have compassion for others. Again, the others that really hurt me deeply, not the easy others. mm-hmm right. And so for others, it's through compassion through those hard situations that they can then have compassion for themselves.

But for me, as I said, I locked down my emotions. It was the last thing I was gonna touch. Cuz it was messy. No one was gonna hurt me again. I will not be vulnerable. That's why it's been one of the hardest steps for me. Okay. But then I can look back and I can see my parents and I can see. Wow. You guys were both brought up in alcohol at.

you both dealt with to dependent, you know, behaviors in terms of communication and you perpetuated that in your own family, cuz that's what you knew. Mm-hmm and to have compassion for them at that time, I know I'm throwing around a lot of counseling terms and a, and a lot of alcoholism terms, um, because it's the way I analyze right where it is through logic.

And stopping and removing myself from the situation, whether it's taking a walk or hanging up the phone, not mad in a mad way. Right. And taking a space and reflecting where I can see, okay, this is the reality of the situation. This is what they knew. How can I move on? Wow. You've grown so much. That's beautiful to see.

And I admire you for sticking with it. I think that, and alone is like an act of courage and it says so much about a person. So bra, blah, anything else to add when it comes to how your life is different? Before we move on the last part for me again, this past year was, was moving. So we'd moved my senior year.

I wasn't, as I said, in relationship with my dad anymore, my mom was back and forth, you know, between different states, moving around, doing her thing. And my siblings were in all different states. And I love Minnesota with huge passion. Right? I love everything about it. There's so many good memories there. I did not realize how healing also how scary it was to move to a different state.

Not because a college brought you there. Right because community is right there from the get go, but to have a different start outside of that, again, we've moved my senior year. I was four hours away from my dad. I was not in that small town anymore, but being able to move to Colorado and to create that space of like, what do I want out of life?

Who do I want to be? These are constant questions. I asked myself even 13 years later after this, the first separation, right? Yeah. It was so vital to have that space where I can learn, what do I want? Right. When Noel asked me, what do you need? I had no idea. I didn't know how to answer. I'm always worried about like helping everyone else.

Right. You put others' needs over here. Right? And so you have to be able to engage yourself to do that. And so I had that space and I'd been working on this and I'd been out of college and I'd been doing all these things, but being able to move. Oh, my goodness. It was, it was another, a way to, to, to learn autonomy, right.

And to learn how to connect with my family, because I had my own little den. Right. I had my own way of an, an area where I, I still felt safe and secure where I can engage in more difficult relationships where I I'm texting my dad. Now I would not have been able to do that if there was ever a thing of just drive up and Sue me for dinner right there.

There's none of that pressure. Yeah. And so for me, that was the right decision to do. And you've been able to at least learn better how to navigate your relationship with your mom. You've gotten, you know, things aren't perfect by any means neither with your dad or your mom, but yeah, because I'm not perfect.

There you go. I love that, but that's really, I think that's a beautiful and powerful change in your life too. You know, it went from maybe acting out emotionally to now you're able to engage your parents in a respectful way, but also retain your boundaries. Not fall into like old patterns. Right. I can text my dad about hunting or about guns or about wildlife.

Right. I text my mom about home improvement projects I'm doing or about my faith. Right. There's different ways I can connect with them without feeling like I'm sacrificing myself for the sake of connection. That's awesome. If your parents were sitting here with us right now or were listening, let's say to this podcast episode, uh, it's a big question.

It's probably the most difficult question I've asked so far. What, what would you say to them? What would you say to your mom? What would you say to your. I love you first and foremost. And if I need space, please let me have it. And it doesn't mean I don't love you when I need to go for a walk or I need to remove myself from something, or I seem to emotionally shut down because there are times when I cannot give.

And if I'm backed into that, that corner and you want something from me immediately, and you need this and you don't realize you're doing it, and I'm trying to give better signs and ways of communicating. Like, if I can have that space, I can love you better rather than responding out of being scared or angry or vulnerable, and I'm not ready for it.

And someone forced me into this, right. Because I know they have the best intentions, but it's to let me have space because it's hard already navigating a divorce. It's also hard learning how to become an adult and having that autonomy in your family. My family's a very enmeshed family. And so to be able to allow me to have that space to operate, it's not being, being selfish.

It's actually me loving you better. Beautiful. Thank you so much. I'm gonna give you the last word, um, before I do just thank you for being vulnerable. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for sharing a lot of intimate details of your story. Um, it's powerful and I know a lot of people listening can totally relate with you.

So thank you so much. You have the last word. What would you say to someone right now? Who's listening, who feels broken, who feels stuck in life because of the trauma they've endured, especially from their broken family. What, what would you, what encouragement, what advice would you give to that person?

It's okay. If you're not at a space to give. And it's okay to receive from others. You are not in charge of anyone else first and foremost, you need to get yourself in order, right? And there's different paths for people as you delve through that, your duties. And first and foremost are to yourself because you cannot give what you cannot have.

Find your counselor, build a relationship delve into self knowledge. As I said, it's the most powerful type of knowledge to have. And to remember like the only thing you can control is yourself. The only thing you can work on and to strive in is yourself. And always remember the serenity prayer, God grant me the serenity to accept the things.

I cannot change the courage to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know difference.

Absolutely love the question that Noel asks, Kendra, what do you need? I think it's really profound and that's something I wanna invite you to think about, to chew on, to reflect on what do you need. In other words, what are you lacking in your life? That if you had, it would bring real, genuine peace, freedom, and happiness.

What do you need? Because the truth is if you don't fill your legitimate needs in healthy ways, what we tend to do is fill them in unhealthy ways, which leads to a lack of peace, a lack of freedom and a lack of happiness. And so give that some thought, what do you need in the conversation? My new book came up.

So I just wanna tell you a little bit about that. If you haven't heard about it, it's called. It's not your fault. A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents force. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults from broken families.

If you wanna buy it, or you just wanna get the first chapters for free, you can go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. If you wanna share your story on our blog like Kendra did, like I mentioned, at the start of the show, you can do that. It's really simple.

Three simple steps go to restored ministry.com/story. You can just fill out the form on that page. It's really a simple form that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll turn that into an anonymous. Blog article. Now, some of the benefits to doing that, reflecting on your story, through the process of writing it out is actually healing on neural biological level.

It makes your brain healthier and writing your story, the act of writing your story, not just reflecting on it is also healing. There have been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier.

And they're happier going beyond just reflecting and writing out your story. Sharing your story with someone else is also healing on a neuro biological love. And lastly, your story, the struggles you've overcome, the struggles you've endured can give someone else hope, especially someone who's going through what you've been through right now.

It could give them some guidance and give them some hope, especially if they feel hopeless. And so if you wanna share your story, we'd love to hear it. We'd love to receive your story@restoredministry.com slash story. The resources mentioned during the show notes at restored ministry. Dot com slash 57.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from the effects of their appearance, divorce, or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you are born to be.

#056: How Virtue Results in Happiness & Freedom | Dr. Andrew Swafford

Dr. Andrew Swafford came from a dysfunctional family, even though his parents never got divorced. As a result, he questioned: “Can I be a good husband and father? Or am I destined to repeat the cycle of dysfunction?”

Thankfully, he overcame those doubts and built a beautiful marriage and family. In this conversation, he shares what helped him to do just that. Plus, we discuss:

• What is virtue and how do you build it?

• A three part framework to know if you’ve acquired a virtue

• The ultimate measure of a virtuous person

• Why virtue offers you happiness and freedom

• Practical tips you can use today to build virtue

Buy Dr. Swafford’s book: Spiritual Survival in the Modern World: Insights from C. S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Dr. Andrew Swafford

  • John Paul II to Aristotle and Back Again

  • Nature and Grace: A New Approach to Thomistic Ressourcement

  • Nature and Grace: A New Approach to Thomistic Ressourcement

  • Ascension: Dr. Andrew Swafford’s Products

• The Art of Living: The Cardinal Virtues and the Freedom to Love

• Back to Virtue: Traditional Moral Wisdom for Modern Moral Confusion

• Emotional Virtue

• Mere Christianity  

• Sister Mariam 

• Fr. John Burns 

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

My guest today came from a dysfunctional family, even though his parents never actually got divorced. And as a result, he seriously wrestled with questions. Like, can I actually be a good husband and a good father, or am I just destined to repeat the cycle of dysfunction that I saw in my family now, thankfully he overcame those doubts and he built a really beautiful marriage and family.

And in this conversation he shares what helped him do just that. And I'll give you a hint. It has so much to do with healing. And building virtue. And so in this episode, we discuss what is virtue and how do you build it? He offers a three part framework to know if you've acquired a virtue. We also talk about the ultimate measure of a virtuous person.

We touch on why virtue offers you happiness and freedom. And then we share some more practical tips on how to build virtue today. This is such a valuable conversation. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 56. You've probably heard that my new book is live on Amazon. It's titled.

It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. The sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and problems that stem from their family's breakdown.

And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much. And I experienced these exact problems. I know this firsthand. It shouldn't be this way. My book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem.

It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges face by teens and young adults from broken families, such as. After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How do I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things? Like my parents' divorce happen. The content in the book is based on research, expert advice and real life stories.

And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tax. Dicks to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future.

And if you come from a broken home, this book is for you, but if that's not your background, maybe you don't come from a broken family. This book is also for you because you likely know someone who comes from a broken home. And so this is a solid resource that you could. Give to them or use to learn how to help them.

And so you can buy the book right now on Amazon. Just click the link in the show notes, or go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Now, if you're not ready for that, you can get the first chapters for free on our website. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Click on the button to get the free chapters. Fill out your name, your email, and we'll send you the free chapters again. You can do that@restorministry.com slash books. My guest today is Dr. Andrew SWER. Dr. Swofford is the associate professor of theology at Benedictine college. He's the general editor and contributor to the great adventure Catholic Bible published by Ascension press.

And he's the host of the DVD series and author of the companion book, Hebrews the new and eternal covenant, as well as the author and host of Roman. The gospel of salvation, both published by Ascension. Dr. Andrew is the author of nature and grace, John Paul II to Aristotle and back and spiritual survival in the modern world.

He holds a doctorate in sacred theology from university of St. Mary of the lake and a master's degree in old Testament and symmetric languages from Trinity evangelical divinity school. That's a mouthful. He's a member of the society of biblical literature, academy of Catholic theology and a senior fellow at the St.

Paul center for biblical. Theology. He lives with his wife, Sarah and their five children, Atchison, Kansas. And you might remember Sarah from the podcast. She was on an episode 20, which we discussed in the conversation. We spoke about navigating singleness in that episode. I'm so thrilled to share this episode with her husband, Dr.

And Andrew Swafford, such an insightful and valuable convers.

Dr. Swofford it's such an honor to, to have you on the show, I've been looking forward to this for a long. Yeah, such a blessing, Joey. Uh, thanks for having me on, man. I want to, um, talk to you about virtue. Wanna talk about how do you build virtue, things like that. But before we dive into the virtue side of the conversation, I'd like to start with your story.

When Sarah, your wife came on in episode 20, she mentioned pretty vulnerably that there was a lot of brokenness at home growing up. There's some dysfunction. And so. I'm sure. There's a lot. We can talk about there. I wanna hone in specifically on the example of marriage that you saw, what was that example like for you growing up?

Yeah, so my, my parents were married, stayed married, or are still married, but it was one of those kind of, um, unhappy marriages. I mean, lots, and, and from the time I can, as long as I can remember, I mean, I, I just assumed they would eventually get divorced. They just, just never did so lots of volatility. Um, you know, I mean, My dad was not to my knowledge and not with, not with me, uh, ever physically abusive, but, but very, very verbally abusive in terms of, it just didn't take much to set him off, worked really long hours, lots of overtime.

And, and, you know, and, and again, lots of people certainly have had it far worse, worse than I, but you know, lots of tension, lots of you just never know when, when something was gonna kinda set the trigger off. And, uh, yeah, that was, you know, one of the deep fears that I had, you know, kind of coming of age and after having my conversion was.

Could I be a good dad? Could I be a good husband? Because I didn't see the example of it. Absolutely. And because of the example that you saw, I'm just curious, what sort of fears and struggles did you have aside from believing, or maybe not believing yeah. That it was possible for you to be a good husband and be a good father.

I mean, so you, I think you kind of assume, uh, maybe subconsciously at least I, I did for a while that you kind of, you know, you're sort of destined to repeat the patterns you grew up with. And, and I can look back at my, you know, my father's life and, and, you know, he didn't have a great upbringing and there's lots of dysfunction there.

And so it's easy to kind of be almost fatalistic about that. And, and what. I, when I came to realize, and in some ways it, it didn't happen fully until after I was married, after I started living, it was, and that's why I love to tell college guys all the time. Like brother, you can be as good of a dad or husband as you want to be.

I think we do repeat the trends that we grew up with. If there's nothing to buck the trend, but if there's something. Bucks the trend, a convers experience, a firm resolved to be the dad. You didn't have that can move mountain. So I just wanna say to everybody, listening to everybody, I, I said this all the time to guys that come across fear, not man.

Uh, you are not a prisoner to your past. I don't care what what's there. You're gonna, we're all gonna have wounds, but you're not a prisoner. You can be, you can be as good of a dad or husband as you want to. So good. That's so encouraging. Cuz I think a lot of people, I know the people that we work with through our ministry feel exactly that fear that you mentioned of repeating the mistakes that they saw in their parents' marriage.

And like you said, so often it does happen from generation to generation. There's just divorce. Like one of my friends, I was talking to this couple that we hang out with, uh, frequently and close friends of ours and they can only think of one couple. That has stayed married in their extended and her extended family of everyone that's been married.

Yeah. Just shocking and, and scary too. And I know they feel that fear, uh, in a very real way, but I think it's good for you to say that you're not destined to go down that road. And I think one of the things that, uh, I think of two aside from the firm resolve, which is absolutely necessary is building someone of a system, a, a community around you.

Yeah. To support you because. If you go at it alone. I mean, so often you're just gonna end up going back to what you saw. It's just what you know. Right. It's what you know. And, um, I think you're, you're, you're you're so right. And you can't do this alone. But even, I mean like, so something like half of marriage is in a divorce, but how many are joyless?

How many are like unhappy? And we all know that number is devastatingly high. The key that I think I've come to, not alone with the community, uh, with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. After I had my conversion with him and. You can't just cover up even very, very good people, even devout people, they can fall into this.

So don't so on the one hand you can be as good of a debt or husband as you want to be. And then the don't be kind of naive to think it couldn't happen to you. Couldn't happen to me because once you get in sort of like dysfunctional patterns and ruts, it's like ruts in the grass, like the rain falls down and it goes right down that path.

And once those patterns get set up, they're really easy to fall into again and again. So I, I think, and part of where we're gonna get to with virtue is that kind. Human formation. Like not when the lights are on when no one's looking, where is the real game of our lives played? And, and man, I would say civilizations are one and lost right there in the school of a family, like right there when nobody's watched, not when you're given a talk, not when you're on the stage, not when all those things, when lights are on it's like what kind of man or woman are you behind the scenes?

And that's where your medal is really tested. And on the one hand you gotta have that resolved. But you gotta have that community to build you up, as you said, and, uh, you know, to speak from my full experience, man, it's not a natural thing by itself, man. I mean, grace builds upon nature, presupposes nature.

And if there's, if there's kinks in the natural human formation, it's gonna affect how grace can transform that. But in my experience, meeting Jesus and meeting him in a profound way in my Catholic faith, they changed. Everything. And it set me on a path. It wasn't overnight. It wa you know, you can't just take some Jesus frost and put it on some old, bad habits and old wounds and expect it to go away.

But over time, uh, it it's, he created the new man and me, and I'm still working progress, but nothing was ever the same after that point. Likewise. Along those lines. So obviously your relationship with Jesus, the people you had in your life, the community, the firm resolve that really helped to heal and start to reverse that cycle of dysfunction and divorce that ran in the family.

Was there anything else that really helped you to heal and to go at your own route? Yeah. I mean, so it's, I guess it's part of a whole, I mean, one. So I came to, I came to, I teach at Benton college now in, at Kansas. Uh, but I came here as a student. Initially I came here by football and, um, you know, grew up Catholic kind of a name only, but never met much to me.

Uh, didn't really go to mass and had this big conversion. Beginning at the end of my freshman year, but really came to a head in the fall semester, my sophomore year. And it's it. Wasn't just Anar call. I mean, it was, it was a, a brewing life changing conversion. I had to let go of some things and I, I met a new group of friends and, you know, the key thing frankly, was a, you know, as I was really be drawn in, drawn into the way of life drawn into the fellowship, the, the virtue, the, just the kind of purposefulness in life.

I mean, so many people. Life, like it's a story with no plot. And that's where this just sadness comes in. And, and all of a sudden, you know, football, wasn't, everything. It became a metaphor for life and not the other way around. And so, but I guess what I'm getting at is it was a relationship with a girlfriend back in Ohio university that eventually had to, that was the last thing holding me back, had to walk away from that for her second from mine, but this conversion process and the mentors that stepped into my.

You know, one of whom was, uh, Dr. SRE, uh, he and his wife, Beth were just instrumental in my life and in my wife's life. They're the godparents of oldest son. It wasn't just a one moment. Okay. Now you accept Jesus. Now he's your personal Lord and savior it. Conversion, as we know is ongoing, and this was a ever deepening journey.

Uh, that's not just, I'm gonna stop doing this, but what are the virtues I need to grow in? And what are the deep wounds from my past that I need to bring to Jesus and, and, and really dig deep, not in a way to kind of like re-litigate relive and beat myself up over. What's the dysfunction going way back and how can it be presented to Jesus on the cross and redeemed and transfigured, and, and here's the thing is like at the N jail.

So in one said, he said, you know, Thomas philosopher, historian philosophy said, you know, St. Thomas Aquinas writes as a free man. Santa Augustin writes as a freed man, Santa Augustin, who, you know, had a child out of wedlock and, you know, have this crazy story and then comes to me, Jesus. And both stories are beautiful and, and both are profound.

Not, one's not better than another, but it's. As I said, you can't just have this conversion and put some little Jesus frost and expect that now all of a sudden everything is gone. It's like, no, no, you gotta dig deep. And these things will resurface at different points in your life. And so I guess what helped me friendship.

Jesus, but really mentors that were really willing to go deep with me at both the spiritual and the psychological, the emotional level. Not in simply like a Naval gazing, but just a okay. What's there. And how can, um, how is this affecting you now and how can we free you from those chains? So good. And I love what you said.

I think if we just put bandages on our brokenness and ignore going to the root and just kind of stuff, things on under the rug, they're gonna come out later. And like you said, if you just put some of that pixie desk, Jesus pixie desk on stuff, you're not going to, it's not gonna change you at a heart level, which then when the struggles of.

Pain comes your way, problems come your way. And in different chapters, like you said, that's, what's gonna break down. It's it's not gonna last so, right. I, I, I love what you said there. And I think the human formation portion, like you said, building virtue is so essential. And so I wanna shift to that if that's okay.

I wanna start with the basic question, cuz a lot of people listening probably haven't studied this stuff as much as you have. What exactly are do we mean when we say virtue? What is virtue? Ha. Well, I I'll tell you what, where it really struck me as, as an athlete. And when I had my, my conversion kind of really came to a head in a Christian moral life class with Dr.

SRE and I walked in thinking it's about a bunch of rules and the Bible says, this church says this can't do that. And I walked in, I couldn't have been more wrong. It was about freedom, friendship, happys. Virtue. All of a sudden I could see, gosh, this is why you're not happy because you, my friend are made for more.

So one of the things that's really deep in the, in the, the classical tradition, uh, in likeso Plato, but, but is just absorbed and enhanced by the Christian tradition is really to see it as an athletic metaphor. Right? I mean, like any player can hit a lucky shot, but the good player is consistent. Is reliable, can do it on command and, and takes joy in doing it with greater and greater excellence.

That's what virtue really is all about. It's not just like on the outside. What do I do? It's what kind of a person, a man rule am I becoming? And the great beauty of this when you really step in is. In each and every action, the choice really is not simply what do I do right here right now? It's who do I want to be?

Because I'm actually modifying my very self, just like a picture. Like I joke with my students. I'm like, look so often we wanna say, Hey, I'm a good guy, deep down. I mean, deep down. I'm a good guy. Despite what I did last weekend, I'm a good guy. It's like, Hey bro. It's like saying I'm a good pitcher. Deep down.

I just never throw strikes. it's like, it doesn't work like that because each pitch you throw with poor mechanics makes it more likely you'll throw with poor mechanic. The next time. And so it's so easy for so many of us to say, Hey, I'm gonna live it up now. And I will get real about life in five years.

And in light of virtue, it's like, no, no, no, who, what you're doing now is directly related to who you'll be in five years, because you are on a journey of becoming you're becoming a certain kind of person. And so what virtue does, it becomes a, you know, it's, there's different etymology. I mean, veer and Latin means a Manliness or a power, like virtue gives you the ability.

To do the good to do it promptly, to do it even effortlessly and to do it with joy. In other words, the moral life is not just, let's always do the hard thing. It's no become the kind of people who can do the right thing. With ease with joy promptly on demand and thereby attained the freedom to be who you really wanna be.

We all wanna be the hero when it counts, but the only way you get there is by being a champion in the little things. And you think about movies like gladiator, right? So remember when he, you know, he's captured and think about the difference to him as a seasoned soldier. Versus others who have never seen combat.

And there's that one scene with a guy's like tinkling nose lake. And that probably would be me in all honesty, but, but that's what virtue does. Me too. It makes you a seasoned, moral and spiritual athlete. So you've been there. You've been tested, you have a pattern of overcoming these things. And so when the big test comes like.

You're ready. Whereas you're not just a lucky player who, oops. He hits a lucky shot. Like, no, no, you're you you're Michael Jordan. You you're the one who's who wants the ball in that clutch moment because you've honed in on the skills to play the game of life with excellence. It's about the art of living and living well.

I love that. And I was just watching gladiator last night. That's hilarious. As soon as you, as soon as you were saying that I was like gladiator. Cause yeah, Maximus had spent years and years developing his skills as a warrior. And uh, it's not something that happens overnight. And I think that's a good reminder.

One of my teachers at Franciscan, I went to Franciscan university. One of my teachers, Dr. Um, ashy. He would always talk about ease, promptness and join. I love that framework cuz you basically to everyone listening. You know, that you've acquired a virtue integrated into your character when you can do it with ease, prominence, and joy.

Right. And so really helpful to remember. Totally. AOLs got a great line at the beginning of his ethics, where he says, um, the it's really fascinating. The pleasure or pain accompany in an action is an index of my. It's not that the pleasure pain is an index of the action being good or evil. It's not that, but like if I'm especially pained by doing a virtuous action, if it really hurts, that's a sign that I have not yet mastered that virtue.

It's sort of like, I mean, you know, for me, this is pretty smoking fast. I've done it a couple times around a six minute mile, but yeah. And let's say I do that. I throw up everywhere. Right. And it's been a long time since I've done that, but let's say I train for a series of months and then around the same mile, same pace.

It won't be as painful. When I'm in better shape, that's what the virtuous life's all about. So good. Are VIRs just good habits or is there more to it than that? Yeah. Well, so they, yeah, I mean, so we can, we can go in, in deeper ways. Um, So for someone like Aristotle, he looks at what we are. I mean, and, and he'd be happy to speak about like the, the virtue of a horse or the virtue of, you know, a watch in horse.

What, what makes a horse, a good horse? What makes a watch a good watch when it performs its function? Well, so he looks at human being, what is a human being? He says it's he's it's ARA. RA is a rational. So reason and, and not just reason that is the ability to kind of calculate as if we're just a computer in a machine.

But, but, but to ask, because think about this, we can ascribe reasons to animals. The animal did this for this reason, but the animal doesn't ask itself, whether these are good reasons for doing this action. There, there are, I mean, again, animal animals are amazing, but I'm interested in the monkeys, DNA, not the other way around.

So what does it mean then to live in accordance with the fullness of my nature as rational? What it means in part for aerosol to not be a slave, to my emotions, not to be a slave, to my passions. Uh, and so I courage, for example, it's not, not having fear. It's not letting fear control me and having the ability to rise above it when the moment is right to choose the good, even in spite of this difficulty.

And so it it's good habits that are perfective of our nature, right? So, uh, the classic Cardinal virtues. So you think about, okay, what what's right. Reason applied to decision making. It's called prudence. What's right. Reason applied to relations with others. It's called justice. What's right. Reason applied to my emotions of fear and things like that.

It's called courage. What's right. Reason applied to my desire for food, drink and sex in inappropriate ways. It's called temperance. So those virtues then don't fall out of a hat as just a bunch of values that some people like rather they are perfective of our human. As rational and as free. And then when the Christian tradition comes along and says, yeah, but there's also faith hope and charity.

What happened? I mean, think about what charity. I mean, those things, faith, hope and share. I think what hope does to courage? Think about how it enhances and dramatically strengthens courage. Yeah, there's the courage of a soldier, but there's always the, there's also the courage of a martyr who has the ability to persevere through an evil that he or she cannot remove.

And we're all gonna need both kinds of courage in life. Think. Not just prudence, but faith where you see the world as God sees it, it, it doesn't suppress the natural virtue. It enhances it. And think about what, what charity does. I mean, think about whether it's love and sexuality. Think about placing all those things in the context of love of God and radical love of neighbor.

Where you love them for the sake of themselves and even for the sake of God, uh, because it's so easy. Think about, you know, cha I know we're all sometimes tired of hearing this, but like, is love about gift or about taking it's about gift or about need. I can love someone for simply what they do for me, but that's really loving myself as I try to pretend to love them.

Charity doesn't suppress temperance. Doesn't suppress human, love it dramatically enhances it. So for the Christian tradition, it's about that, which is perfective of our nature, which brings us to an objective happiness. So happiness, not merely as a subjective state of contentment, but the objective happiness.

That is the perfective of my nature, a happiness that is not easily taken away. It's not simply about what happens to me. It's the fruit of my character. So the Christian tradition says that's exactly right. And let me tell you more of. So good. This is mind blowing and I think, um, so many people listening are just taking all of this in and I, I think one way to summarize and correct me if I'm wrong here.

Yeah. Go for it. Is that, uh, one of the best measures of how virtuous a person is, is their level of self mastery. Would you say that's true or not? Oh, and I mean, I think it, when, when all comes to a head, can I rise above my spontaneous emotional reaction in the. And this will make or break a marriage. This will make or break a father and son, father.

And I mean, and we're not gonna be perfect, but, but think about how often we are just kind emotional pinballs and just think about all the kind of dysfunctions that, that occur when there's one comments made and then it escalates to more. And then you just develop these, these dysfunctional patterns and habits.

Roommates siblings, parents, spouses, like this is where I think. So I think you're exactly right. Can I attain self mastery? Can I be master of myself because I cannot fully love, I can't fully give myself until I am master of myself. Hmm, Dr. Susan, David is a psychologist at the Harvard medical school and she goes at this from somewhat of a more secular point of view, but she talks about how, um, this idea of emotional agility.

And she said it basically has two parts. It's it means facing your emotions, feeling them, not stuffing them away, not ignoring them. Right. Right, right. But then choosing your response in a way that aligns with your deepest held belief. So for Catholics, we would say, yeah, that sounds like virtue. That that's exactly right, because it's like you say, it's important to say this.

It's not a suppression of emotion. It's not a suppression of passion. It's a right ordering of them. And in real sense, it's even greater to do the right action with passion. So passion doesn't necessarily be the guy it's not passion's job to find the truth. It's not my emotions job to find the truth. But when I find the truth and I will.

Execute that truth. It's even greater if I do it with passion, because now my full self, the emotion, I mean, think about what the emotions do. There's a vividness to our lives. Cause the emotion there's like a Gusto to our lives that would be lacking. We're not angels or robots. Right. So love ordered by right reason.

Should bring all the passion in the world. You just have to get the, the right reason context first. And then it's actually, I think I would say this a positive. Good. So the tick spouses, for example, it's important to connect emotionally with one spouse. So the love can't be simply based on an emotional union.

That's gonna fall apart. Sooner than later, we know that, but once it's rooted in a firm act, will I give myself to you and you, to me, especially for a captain, the context of marriage as, as an into, so union form forged by God, then I have to, and I need, and I should, I should take the light in connecting emotionally with my spouse, with my kids.

The emotions are a wonderful thing. It's just not their job to find the truth, but we have to, I mean, it's it's, as you said, it's not about suppression. It's about. Channeling ordering and allowing them to enhance everything that we are. And that goes back to before the fall. You know, what the, what Catholic teaching would say when sin entered the world?

When we rebelled against God, before that time, our reason and our emotions and our appetites were all aligned. Like we didn't have to one wasn't fighting against the other, which sounds really nice. but because we're, we live in this broken world. Um, we have to realign those so to speak right in, you know, making those, and I remember CS Lewis talking about how the head needs to rule the stomach through the chest.

You know, I you're. So you're so right. It's a great, you know, I mean, and I, I, I, that sounds like abolition of man and, and Lewis, this probably is the same point. I'm not sure, but Lewis is known for saying encourages the form of the virtues in that, like, he, he has his wine and scripted letters that punches pilot was merciful until it became risky.

That it, when the, when the virtue is really tested, you will have to have courage in order to see it through. And, you know, I love that you brought up here before the fall because it's, it's. It's interesting in God's Providence that even after baptism, after we've been restored in Christ, the effects of the fall, you know, can Cubas and suffering death can Cubas meaning our kind of disordered desires.

And, uh, they remain in many states will say, well, you know, it's so interesting that they do remain and why. That we may, as they, many of 'em say that we may merit in our struggle. There's something about, I think every athlete knows this. God doesn't test us to see, are you gonna pass or not? Rather, every athlete knows this.

There's something that comes out of us that only is brought out in test that if we weren't tested, there's a greatness that wouldn't come out. If you weren't tested. And I think we know we don't want this, but we, I think we deep it. Now we know this. And so I think it's fitting in God's Providence and even look at our Lord.

I mean, he entered into our plight, uh, and traditionally, even with Mary's assumption, we've most of the traditions believe that she did in fact die as a participation in Christ suffering in death. Uh, and so even though the grace has been restored, we are sons and daughters of the father, the effects of the fall remained.

As really a way for us to participate in, enter into that great mystery of Christ that we may merit in our struggle. And you said I'd rather it not in so many times, but there's part of me deep down knows I am better for having been tested. I love that. And it makes me think of my daughter. I'm a new dad.

Um, our baby girl is actually three months today. Congrats brother. Thank you. We're we're obsessed. And it's so cool. Learning a lot about childhood development. Like learn, watching her grow. Like she's just such a sponge right now. And one of the things we've learned through a lot of the Montessori stuff is that you don't always wanna rush in and help your baby.

Like they need to struggle a little bit, like right now, She's learning how to roll over. And the temptation for me as a dad is like, oh, I'll just, I'll help you roll over. Um, but really I need to kind of hold back and say, no, this is ultimately in the end gonna make you a better, stronger person. If you do this on your own, it doesn't make I kind of sister here there a little bit, but I, I need to let her struggle, which is hard.

And when you're in the midst of it, especially as that person thinking of our relationship with God, it's like, it can be really frustrat. Yeah, no, and you're so right. And I, and I've, I've been teaching my 15th year, uh, the college students who do really well. I mean, just on the whole, we have great students, but those who have had the experience of facing adversity and persevering through it, because they, they own that.

They know they can do that. They, they become seasoned. They've been there before. You know, and I could think of examples with my kids. I mean, I, well, a couple of 'em were willing to act and, and there was this one time when, uh, I mean, honestly, like I think our most accomplished actor he's actually really talented.

Like didn't, he really got a really minor part, was super bummed. And, uh, in fact, one of his siblings got a. A bigger part and you know, it's probably in the family, like the better actor didn't get it. But long story short, I wasn't about to like call and complain to the, the, the director of the theater, anything like that.

Cause I'm like, you know, this is a bummer, but. Just embrace the moment. Embrace the moment. Whereas Lord teaching you here, um, embrace the humiliation for the moment. Be grateful for what you have, be grateful for getting a rule. Some kids didn't get any rules at all. Right. So, uh, it was just a moment of like, you're gonna, you're gonna lose some, like you're gonna get knocked down and, and it's not my job.

To make sure that that gets like fixed and switched in the moment. Rather, I'm gonna watch you grow because you're gonna get knocked down again. Life will knock you down like you, and I know this man life will hit you like a ton of bricks. And if you don't have the experience of having been knocked down, having been disappointed, having like really wanted something and come up short and the ability to persevere through that, like life is just, it's just gonna destroy us.

I mean, and it's, it's, it's about virtue. He could keep going back to it, but it's, it's all about. Virtue and virtue, not simply as like success in terms of career. Like it, it will translate in that way often, but success in life. And for me, that's what happens like, yeah, football's great. But what is the same blood, sweat and tears that I, I, I shed there.

What does that mean in the game of life and all of a sudden, like the mean of my life. Became so much more important. And I guess just to maybe give you a little anecdote, I think a lot of people let's, especially the guys out there are in this boat. I, uh, and I wasn't like a, you know, I mean, I played small college football, so I, I dream about being a Buckeye grew, you know, from Ohio, but it wasn't, wasn't, so made to overstate this, but I got accepted my high school hall of fame and we got to address the football team.

Like 17 of us from different ages, different time periods. And like so many of these guys, we didn't have Mitch time, like, you know, five, 10 minutes said, you know, all of us up here would trade places with you. High school athletes in a second. And I'm like, I'm about to contradict everything you're saying.

But so many of those guys never learn a second act. Like the highlight of their life is like junior, senior year varsity, Fred and lights. It's like, that's a really sad way to be like, I, I love my time there, but I would never go. That was a stepping stone to where I am now. And I think embracing virtue and embracing it wholeheartedly is a way to not live in the past for these kind of frankly, superficial moments that we think are the, in.

Absolutely. And it, it makes me sad too. I hear people talk about college or college years, like, oh, the best time of my life. I'm like, why not make now the best time of your life? Right. And I totally get, you know, there's good memories there. You have that community. Like I miss college in a lot of ways, but I, you know, I'm, I'm not itching to go back immediately.

I wanna live where I'm at right now. So I wanted to ask though, there's people listening right now who may be thinking like, Sounds like a lot of work and you know, our culture is so addicted to comfort. And so they might, people might be thinking, you know, this just isn't worth it. Like why, why even bother?

So what would you say? Why, why is building virtue worth the time worth the effort? Well, just look at every other walk in life that we consider important and the freedom of virtue is just like, it's just like getting in. It's just like any athletic skill that it's at first is clumsy and awkward, but over time in practice becomes fluid and effortless.

It's like learning a foreign language, which at time is clumsy and hard and difficult. It's like learning a musical instrument. I mean, all these things are examples where freedom is not the simply the ability to choose, but the freedom is the ability to do the good. And I think deep down, we want this, we see it in other areas.

And so I guess all I'm saying is, think about that same mindset. But in the game of life, and this will lead to, I mean, in so many ways it will lead to happiness. It, it will lead to a more secure and better life. Cause like for S little happiness is not so much a noun as it is a verb. Hmm. It's a verb that is the fruit of my character and living well.

What does it mean to live the human life? Well, it doesn't mean to simply choose comfort all the time. So recreation, pleasure. All that's a part of. But to make that the dominating factor is, is frankly, to lead to a life of sadness. I mean, sin leads to sadness and whether it's secular or not. I think we know that look at addiction, look at, I mean, and this is the thing is we're becoming a certain kind of person.

So I think, just think about who you want to be in five years and ask yourself how to get there. And the only way is to. Being sincere about wanting to live excellence in the little things. And it won't be perfect. It'll be a bumpy ride, no doubt. But like, I think deep down we know it's worth it. Like why would I shed blood, sweat, and tears to learn how to throw a ball better versus like becoming a better man or a woman.

And I think, I think what it is partly for us is we don't think that it's in our grasp. We think that like, you're just born that way. It's like, no. People ain't just born that way. I mean, like we have dispositions, some virtues will come easier to others and some vices will. I mean, like, so that's all true, but if you really enter into this, someone like Ariss, it'll tell you your happiness is far more in your control.

I. Then you realize because it's the fruit of your character, not simply what happens to you, whereas so much of our lives, like when I get this relationship, when I get this job, when this happens and like, we all know, man, that's a search of an end of a rainbow that ain't ever gonna come. And so it's like, maybe you, I might say this, you've tried it that way for a while.

Just give this a chance and just see what happens. Especially if you do with friends because good friends, then virtuous friends become workout partners in the game of. Who want to challenge you, but also love you and meet you with mercy when you fall. Uh, as my wife likes to say, good for good friendships are about availability.

You gotta spend time together. Vulnerability, you gotta be real and accountability. Like a friend who loves you enough to speak the hard truths. Wow. Okay. And I think for a lot of people having those friends. We don't have that. And in addition, one of the things that helped me so much is like looking to see people who are living that life, that I ultimately wanna live role models, essentially.

And I know, you know, in the Catholic church we have the saints, they live such beautiful lives of heroic virtue. And so looking to them and focusing on them, I think can be helpful as well, because so often what happens, I think is like, people think like, oh yeah, I wanna get in shape or, oh yeah. I wanna, you know, live the virtue of chassis or I wanna.

Become more courageous or whatever virtue you're trying to acquire. And we don't really know if it's worth it, cuz we haven't tasted it. But once you get to that point, you're like, man, this is amazing. Like the peace that I experienced, the joy that I experienced, this is way better than, um, you know, the unhealthy stuff I was into the sin that I was falling into.

But it's hard when you haven't tasted that. Totally. And you you're exactly right. You need levy mentors. So many people don't have heroes. We just don't have heroes anymore heroes in our lives or heroes that we look up to. You know, with our 24 hour, you know, news cycle. I mean, there's, I think we're suspicious.

Nobody's really that good. There's something lurk in the closet that I know about. And we've been, we've been, you know, kind of disappointed so often that I guess in some ways it's understandable, but we need real life heroes because virtue it's resolved, but it's also imitation. I mean like discipleship, like for the disciples with Jesus, you know, my taste, the word, the Greek word.

It really means student, but it's not student who like sits in the classroom. It's these students of a rabbi who lived with him for three years and Morris Coton is taught. So you need friends, but you need living mentors. Show me the way. So that I can imitate you. And, and as you said, the saints exhibit a, but I think we also need people in our lives that exhibit, this, that exemplify this, that show us the way that we can bounce things off of show me what it looks like to live the next decade of my life.

Give me someone just a little bit ahead of me so I can see what it looks like. What does excellence look like in the here and now? Beautiful. And the last few minutes that we have, I want to get into the tactical, cuz I think this is really where the rubber meets the road. So in your. When you want to build a virtue, how do you personally go about doing that?

And if you're willing to share, what are you working on right now? You know, everything . Yeah. So here, I think maybe what happens a lot is there's a vice that bugs us that we wish we didn't, you know, weren't addicted to didn't do. And, and the key is many virtue. Teachers will tell you, it's not just don't.

You have to practice the opposite virtue. You've gotta replace that with an opposite habit and there's gonna be struggles. It's gonna take time. But I, I really think the little things and so courage, we love courage. Like everybody loves courage. Expand what we mean by courage because you're not gonna always have physical opportunities to practice courage.

And the one that we always have opportunities for those templates, uh, because we're always gonna be eating food, things like that. So like, just take, take, I mean, just start like this take, take, um, maybe take one meal a week or one meal a day and don't do the, like the big mega fast, like what's one condiment.

You really like. What, you know, maybe you want sugar in your coffee, whatever is just, just maybe take a month and just try to try to a small, fast, a small, moderate, fast. I'm not gonna put salt or I'm not gonna use ketchup or I'm not gonna, I mean, it just on the one hand, you're probably thinking right now.

Oh, this is kind of silly. That'd be easy. Try it as soon as you try. Oh, Man and just watch yourself. It doesn't have to be forever, but just do it for month. See what happens. See, and start seeing little success stories. Uh, and I think that can go a long way. So, I mean, I think a lot of, you know, men and women struggle with this as is pornography and masturbation, things like that.

I would say there. Again, couple things. Watch what's flowing downstream. If your soul, if your mind, your heart is like a, a pool and there's a stream or a pond, or like, and there's a stream flowing into it. If that stream is dirty, it's gonna be really hard to keep this pond clean. So what's flowing into it by that.

I mean, I mean, let's be honest. Uh, what, what are my conversations? What are the movies that I'm watching? What are the, what's the music I'm listening to? What, what, what are all these things that really probably are affecting my heart and my mind in ways I'm not realizing, uh, that are gonna kind of look for an outlet.

So if you want you, can't just, you can't just get to the, the symptom. You gotta take the root out. You need accountability partners. I think also here though. What do you filling yourself up with? I mean, what is, what are you yearning for? And, and, and what if you really filled your mind with the true, the good and the beautiful, and I think here's where the conversion experience for me, the grace of Jesus Christ.

Um, what do you want Jesus that badly? And you bring him into your life. I mean, in my experience, chains were set free that had long held me down chains that I would not have thought possible. To break. So I think you have to believe it is possible. I think too often, we don't hear enough success stories in that category because I think people are afraid to sound pompous, but you need to, you need to believe that, Hey, look, masturbation is not like a, this is not like a done deal.

I mean, like there are people who don't do this. There are people who don't do this. There's people who have overcome these addictions. I think they need to hear these success stories. You know, I think sloth, I dunno if sloth is a deadly sin is sort of a sorrow at the difficulty of spiritual. Good. I think, I think that's the vice for age.

It's a sadness. It's like, I want to be great, but it's too hard. And so I roll over and die and I find myself bored, unfulfilled and restless. And so I scroll and I do things to kind of numb the pain either by pleasure or I become a workaholic and I get really super busy. So I think. Friendship, uh, accountability, fill yourself with the true, good and the beautiful, I think moments of quiet, a quiet prayer where you just listen, because that silence is loud.

I mean that when you really say I here I am, Lord, what in my life needs to change when you spend 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes like that, just listening. It's really hard to live a double life because either you'll eventually either stop the sin or you'll stop praying, but it's really hard to do. For a long time.

So I think that sounds we're just so you know, there's lights, there's screens there and I'm not against it, but like, yeah. Look up at the stars and spend some time and quiet. And your life will be better for it. I think prayer becomes so much more real when you do that. And when you bring your problems to God, not like he's a divine vending machine.

Like, Hey, gimme what I need. Right. Yeah. But really to develop like a relationship and say, okay, God like, okay, Jesus, this is what I'm dealing with. These are my problems, like right. Help me. Here and then having patience to wait to see how he communicates to you, which often in my life, at least is not through an audible means it might be through a realization.

I have, it might be through a song that I hear my, you know, my spiritual director through a friend who says something through a desire. I have something like that. He communicates in so many different ways. Totally. But, but I think per often is just so stale. If I can say that because we go into it and we kind of try to present ourselves with this, you know, neat looking suit on.

Right. And just say, God, like, okay, I'm here, I'm here to impress you. Right. We're in reality. He's like, yeah, I see right through that, but he's not gonna press us for it. Cause he's a perfect gentleman. Amen. Amen. I mean, when you go to God and your weakness and your brokenness and just what you're talking about here, Even at a practical, natural level, but we know it's, there's something supernatural going on.

It's the Lord, it's his living voice. It will clarify and refine our consciences it's so we can talk about conscience all day long, but we all know that like there's things that we would never do and we do it once. And then the second time, uh, and you're kind of used to it and your conscience gets numb when you really spend this quiet time and prayer in listening and you bring these weaknesses before the Lord, he will clarify and refine our consciousness.

And, and here's the thing. There's a real danger in being your own boss when you want to be your own boss. I mean, we all know this. If my reason and my passions are at odds. Yeah. I might align my passions with right reason or as more often than not, I will cook up some good reasons to justify doing what I want to do.

And prayer is really an active, I eat my own boss. I'm coming to you. And I want to, I want to subject myself to the truth, not the truth that I recreate to match my whims, but I wanna live in accordance with objective reality. And I want you to help me see that. And, and I think anybody and everybody, if they spend time like this, they will have that experience of I've got a deeper confidence in my own judgment, because I've been really reflective about.

And I'm not the boss. I've actually gone to someone who knows far more than I knows me better than I know myself. The, and the paradox there is that it sounds like that's, uh, the opposite of freedom, kind of putting yourself under someone else. But in reality, it leads to freedom. It's such a paradox, which I'm sure we can do a whole show on.

Yeah. And that's how, but if you're coaching a baseball team, a bunch of 10 year old kids, like, Hey kids they'll swing the bat. However you. Oh, gosh, but that doesn't make the free be great back. No, I mean, but that, that's the point is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm I'm for autonomy to have a real life coach who wants my good, even more than I do at.

Absolutely. I played baseball growing up into college and we were always drilling. And the better the coach, the better the player. That's exactly what I saw every single time. Yeah. I couldn't, couldn't agree more with you. A few things that have been helpful to me. I wanted to throw out there to you and to everyone listening, please.

Um, and you know, these things, I don't mean it to say I'm teaching you, but I, I I've just found these helpful. I wanted to mention them and feel free to elaborate on them. Um, one. Once a week. I have a reminder that comes up on my phone to like choose a virtue that I'm focused on for the week. And then every day before, you know, when I wake up, I'm trying to think of that virtue and try to put it into action to practical ways.

And then at night I kind of do a recap of my day, which, you know, Catholics call that an examination of conscience, which I know you would, if we had two hours, you would teach on all of that. So, so that has been really helpful for me. Another thing though, is. Two things getting clear, almost like a mental image of where I ultimately want to go.

Like you were saying before is exactly what you were saying before. Like, get very clear on like here's where I wanna go. Here's who I want to be. Like, that's where the role models and looking to the saints is so helpful, but then focus like. Intensely on the next step, not getting distracted by, oh man.

There's a lot of steps to get up that mountain, but really right. Okay. I wanna be at the top of that mountain. Here's what it will be like when I get there. Now I need to take these steps this step right now and doing that has been so helpful for me because otherwise I can get overwhelming. Yeah. That's no, everything you said is beautiful.

That's exactly right. You know, we talk about virtue as good habits and, and like, how do you grow out? What repeated actions like, like acts like habits. But one thing I think your point to is it's not just repeated acts. It's also, it's also acts with a renewed and vigorous intensity. So think about it.

Like your baseball swing is something off when you're gonna like fix it. You're gonna like really focus with great deal of intentionality with a great deal of intensity. On getting it right. Especially those, those first few. So that intensity of changing that intensity emotionally, that can go a long, long way.

And I love what you're saying about one of the things I like prayer and that kind of quiet prayer is to come away with an action item. Like what do I wanna work on today and bring it to mind throughout the day? Like you said, that's beautiful and the examine, uh, examin your conscience. I just think it just spent five minutes walk through your.

and give thanks, but also ask the Lord what needs to change and, and, and, and express your, your sorrow and your remorse. Like you. I think we all know everybody from the atheist, the Catholic knows you will be a better man or a woman for having done that, where so much we live life unre, reflectively, and we just go through the motions and, and even people who leave the faith, I think often, you know, some people have a big abrupt rupture, but some people are like, yeah, I don't really know how I got here, but five years went by and I kind of just.

Train and stop going and study. And one thing led to another and here I am, that's no way to live life. It's no way to live life aimlessly like that. And so that kind. Active intentional reflection. I think just, we know it. It's, it's huge. It's huge. And I think the intensity, the intensity can make up for lost time.

That was my experience. Like the intensity to wanna live differently, sped things up in a way that I never could have dreamed of obviously by the grace of our Lord, but that intensity can go a long way. That makes a ton of sense. And I remember when I would go to like a hitting coach, for example, I, you know, it was very intense.

Like we're focusing on maybe one movement in my swing. Right. And that was it. Yeah. And the reason we did that though, was to make it mess muscle memory. And then when I would step in the box in a game. I was not thinking of mechanic at all. That, that's what I learned through sports psychology and everything.

When you get in the game and you probably know, like, remember this from playing football, like, you're not thinking, all right, this is how I need to tackle you. You're just doing it. Right. And that's the goal. That's the goal. Amen. That's the freedom, right? That's the freedom. I mean, it affect the. The teaching externally has now been internalized by you to the point where you don't have to consciously think about anymore.

So my family and I, we just started jujitsu about six months ago. Nice. It's like our new, my gosh. It's we love it. So I've got, I mean, my, it was me and my two other boys. They're 14, 15 now my 10 year old daughter's in it, my six year old son and we are just jamming, but like, it's like a dance. You don't know the steps to.

And then you practice and then you get a match and it's like, you know, it's, it becomes intuitive. And that's the whole point of the virtuous life is to become the kind of man or woman who does the right thing almost instinctively and has that kind of freedom. Whereas the person who hasn't matched the virtue, when the moment comes, they have to really gin themselves up.

Whereas the person who's acquired the habit, who's made this a pattern. It would almost be unnatural to go the other way. Like the person who's been eating right for a long time. It's weird to kind of just like eat a bunch of candy bars. Like it feels kind of weird, even though at first it was really hard to eat.

Right. And eat healthy. And now it's like, it's I wouldn't wanna do anything otherwise. And the same thing happens in virtue. And I think, like you said earlier, A lot of us haven't tasted that. And so we don't know that we don't know the freedom, the happiness, the joy, the peace in for our lives, but also our relationships that comes from that.

But I think all I can say is brothers and sisters, man, it's, it's worth the risk. What have you got to lose? And, and I just promise you, you won't regret, you won't regret the blood, sweat, and tears in this area, just as you haven't regretted that kind of effort in other areas, this is even more important and more reward.

It's gold. Man, so good. And I, one final thought on that, I just think of the heroes that we admire, whether in a movie or in real life, and one common trend is that they have virtue and then that's, it that's really what it comes down to. So to someone who wants to build this virtue, they wanna learn more about the virtues, how to implement them into their lives.

Do you have any resources that you recommend in order to do. Yeah. You know, my mentor, Dr. SRE just wrote a new book called the art of living. Uh, and it's all, it's all about the virtues, the virtues as the skills to live life well, to live life with excellence and to live a, a happy life. So that that's when I wrote a book called John Paul, second air, settle back again.

Which has my story and it it's, it's, it's kind of maybe intermediate. So there's a lot of stuff on like God and science God's existence. I have my story, I get I a primer on Aristotle and kind of virtue there. And I also go through, uh, jump all seconds, love responsibility, and so kind, kind of bring it all together.

So the last time I, I taught the pH department for a while and I taught, uh, Nick kin ethics from Aristotle and general sex love responsibility. So this book kind of came outta that. Uh, I also have, um, a book on the screw tape letters, which is a little bit easier to read and that. Uh, it's called spiritual survival in the modern world.

And, uh, that's really very much. Kind of a lot of the stuff we're talking about at the very human level, the more life, the spiritual life. And again, obviously right as a Catholic, but lots of non-Catholics and, and even non-Christians have felt, have gotten a lot out of this. Those are Amazon. I have stuff for Ascension.

I've got a study on Hebrews, a study on Romans. I, I did the great adventure Catholic Bible, so that's a lot Ascension press.com. And then my wife, um, runs kind of a website where have all of our stuff@emotionalvirtuedotbigcartel.com, emotional virtue dot big cartel.com. Her book, emotional virtue. I should have said that first, uh, fantastic on this.

And this is, it refers to the relationships and lots of really hardcore like sororities. Fraternities like people who would never darken the doorway of a church have been incredibly moved by this book. My wife just has a way of saying, well, we all know it needs to be said, but you still like her afterward.

Right? So I'd recommend. Yeah. Oh, there's so many good stuff out there. I mean, you're ministry, all the things you're doing sister Miriam, James. Um, because. When you go to live this life of virtue and you really want it. There's often deep healing that needs to happen. And, and sister Miriam's work on just going deep because as she will say, often suffering that is not redeemed is gonna be transferred.

You're gonna pass it on somebody else. Somebody close to you're gonna hurt someone because you didn't tend to those deep wounds. Wow. Uh, especially with our Lord. So I, I couldn't re recommend her work. Father. John Burns, another friend of mine. His work is. And the same kind of healing category. So that's kind of a lot, but lots of great stuff out.

Well, list those all in the show notes for you guys. And one book, if it's okay. I wanted to add into, I just thought of that I read years ago was back to virtue by Peter KRE. Yes. Yeah. Love that book. And it taught me so much about virtue and about, you know, the different virtues and a little bit about, you know, how to acquire them.

So totally just wanted throw that in there, but I love the recommendations. Thank. Yeah. You know, CS Lewis's mere Christianity, the whole middle section on the moral life is fantastic as well. I, I, I, you. My wife and I are contracted with Ascension to co-write a book. And, and really we're gonna really focus on this human formation.

That's probably gonna be more 23, 20, 23, when that comes out. And then, uh, I have some other stuff coming from Ascension on the Bible and Catholic faith, but, uh, that'll be in the next year, but yeah, I think Lewis Peter CRA three. The catechism too, is, is very great. Is, is, you know, is excellent on this as well.

Uh, there's just a lot out there, so don't get overwhelmed, just pick one and just kind of, you know, go slow and, and let the snowball kind of get bigger. I have students like how, where do I start? There's so much to read. It's like, just roll the snowball. It'll get more compact. It'll get bigger. Take your time.

You don't have to do this. So good. Dr. Shaffer, thank you so much. I wanted to give you a chance to just give everyone a little word of encouragement, in addition to what you just said, especially to people who are listening right now, who, who do feel very broken, maybe they come from a lot of brokenness.

They feel stuck in life. So much fear, things that are holding them back. What, what else would you say to that person right now? Who, who does that? They feel that inkling in their heart. They're like, I want that better life, but I just, I don't know if I can do it. I don't really know how to do it. What would you say to.

I mean, can I start by just saying this? You are not damaged goods, you are not damaged goods. I think the hardest thing for us to believe in all honesty is Catholics. It's not the Trinity. It's not the sexual issue. It's to believe that the God of the universe, the creator of the cosmos actually loves me.

That the creator of the cosmos cares that much about this spec of matter. You're not damaged goods. You're not, you're not unlovable. You are worthy. You're not a prisoner to your. Start there because I think the evil one will tell us lies all, uh, uh, and the Hebrew word, Satan, Satan literally means to Hughes, like in temptation, he's our buddy come on.

But then when we fall, he's gonna dance us with shame. And I just think there's deep shame and fear. And I just wanna say you are not damaged goods, you are worthy and you are worthy of living the life that you really want to live. And you, my friend are made for more. And I know, you know, this, you know, you're made for more.

I need you to believe that, to own that, and let's make it happen and let's make it happen together. And we can be simultaneously a masterpiece and a work in progress. As my wife likes to say it ain't gonna be perfect, but just like of those other areas, the athlete, the musician, like it, ain't always perfect.

But we know what the path is, translate the same thing into what really matters. And you won't look back and you won't regret it

so much. Good stuff in that interview. I actually listened to it again. I was so good. I wanted to hear more. I wanted to. From Dr. Swofford and if you were overwhelmed by how much information was in that interview, I wanna say a few things first. You can listen to it again, just listen to it again, to absorb more of the content.

And my advice for you, like Dr. Swofford said is just focus on one virtue at a time, just focus on one thing at a time, baby steps, keep moving in that direction. Don't try to do it all at once. It won't work, do one thing at a time. What I like to do, as I mentioned in the show is just one virtue a week. And I wanted to say, if you doubt that you're capable.

Of building virtue of changing your life of building a better life for yourself and hopefully your family or your future family. I wanna tell you that's a lie. You are capable of doing it. And I'm here to tell you that you are, and if you struggle, and if you need some help, we are here to help you. Like please make use of restored, join our community.

Get some coaching consume more of our content, whatever it takes to help you to become a more virtuous person. You can start to build virtue by reflecting on these questions. The first is simple. What advices are you struggling with the most? Right now, you probably can answer that really quickly off the top of your head, but think it through, if you need to, what advices are you struggling the most with right now?

And then what virtue? Do you need to acquire to combat it? Maybe that's one, maybe that's multiple virtue, but again, just pick one and make a super simple plan to practice that virtue today, tomorrow this week, and the keyboard there is practice like Dr. Swofford said, this is like a game. This is like a sport we're.

We need to practice to acquire these skills. And as we do that more and more, it will become easier. We'll do it more quickly. And we'll. With joy. So keep at it. Even if you get discouraged, just get up again and again, and keep going. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 56.

Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's really struggling from their broken family, from their parents' divorce, or whatever's going on in the family, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#055: I Wish My Family Was Normal | Ashlyn Frederick

If your family is broken, you’ve probably felt like our guest today who badly wanted her family to be normal. It’s such a natural desire which goes painfully unsatisfied. 

In this raw episode, we discuss:

• How an affair broke her family apart and how that’s impacted her

• How we often use excessive drinking to cope with our pain and what to do instead

• When moving away from your family could be the right thing for a time

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

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• Ashlyn Frederick

  • Email: ashlynkailah@outlook.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family, you've probably had the thought. I just wish my family was normal. I've been there. I felt that I think most of us have, and I remember some sort of situation at home where there was some drama going on and one of my siblings said something like, I just want our family to be whole again.

And that just destroyed me. It just struck such a nerve inside me because I felt that desire so strong. And if you can relate, you're gonna love this episode. You're gonna love my guest today. In this episode, we touched on how an affair broke her family apart and how that's impacted her. She shares how anger was a real struggle for her and what she did about it.

And she offered some advice on how you can handle your anger in a healthy way. We discussed. How many of us fall into drinking excessively in order to. With our pain and what you can do and said, and we talk about how moving away from your family could actually be the right move for you. At least for a time.

This is such a down to earth conversation, lots of good stuff in it. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm. Joey Pelli thank you so much for listening. This is episode 55, and if you haven't heard, my new book is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

And the sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents separation. Or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their family's breakdown without guidance. They continue to feel alone in struggle, in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationships, struggles, and so much more.

And I've experienced these problems. Firsthand these exact problems firsthand. And it really shouldn't be this way. This book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges face by teens and young adults from broken family. Such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with.

Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? What's your advice for navigating the holidays in other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents?

What does God let bad things like my parents divorce. Happen and so much more, the content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading this book, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They'll learn some healing tactics to help them feel whole again. To learn about how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. And if you come from a broken family, this book is written specifically for you.

And if that's not your background, this book is also for you because you likely know someone who comes from a broken home, it's a solid resource that you can use yourself to understand them and help them, or even gift to them, give to them so that they can benefit from it. Now, like I mentioned, you can buy the.

On Amazon right now, just click the link and the show notes. So you can go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Now, if you're not ready to buy, you can also get the first chapter for free. Just three easy steps to go to restored ministry. Dot com slash books, click on the button to get the free chapters.

Just fill out your name, your email, and we'll send you the free chapters again. That's restored ministry.com/books, either by the book or get the free chapters today. My guest today is Ashlyn. Frederick Ashlyn was born and raised in Denver, Colorado where me and my wife and my daughter Lucy live right now.

And as one of seven kids, her sisters and brother. Biggest support system and best friends, especially after her parents' divorce. Ashlyn was raised in a conservative, uh, Christian Catholic home, where much of her identity was based on those Catholic values. Through her parents' divorce, Ashlyn has had to reconcile and rediscover her identity and through the process of healing and understanding God's plan for her life.

Ashland made the courageous decision to move to Kansas city, Missouri. This is the first time she has lived away from her family. And the first time she moved without really knowing. Many people in that area are having a job lined up. Ashland has seen the fruits though of this decision has only flourished in Kansas city.

Ashland is now the executive director of a nonprofit in Kansas city called the mission project where she gets to combine her passions of fundraising and working with individuals. With disabilities Ashland also, co-owns a photography business with her boyfriend KJ called Ture it photography. I love this conversation with Ashland.

It's so real. It's so raw. She's so honest. She doesn't pretend to be someone that she's not. She's just honest about where she's struggling right now in her life, but she also shares where she's grown a lot where she's healed. So super refreshing, very hopeful. And like I said, very unfiltered and honest conversation.

So here's my conversation with Ashlyn

Ashlyn. It's so good to have you on the show. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited. Now I get to talk about all the depressing stuff that's happened in your life. It's always a yes, a heavy conversation, but it's really a good conversation. I think it offers a lot of hope to a lot of people.

So if you would. Take us back in time. Take us to that day when, uh, your parents separated, let us know. Yeah. How old were you? What happened? Yeah, so my parents actually separated twice, so we, I was in seventh grade, so I was about, I guess I was like 12 or 13 years old. And that was the first time that they separated.

So what happened was, I just remember. Getting home from school and my dad was there alone and he was really upset. I could just tell. He was just off, there was just something wrong. He is a man that doesn't show a lot of emotions. He's very quiet. He doesn't really express his emotions. So for him to be like expressing his sadness was something completely new to me.

And he, we get home from school, all my sisters and I, and he just kind of explained he's like, your mom is going away for a little bit. She did something bad and kind of. Made it seem like my mom was in trouble in some way. And at that age, I didn't understand everything that happened or had gone on behind closed doors.

But from what, what I learned through like private conversations between my parents and from things that my siblings found out by accidentally looking on my mom's cell phone, my mom had had an affair with someone. And so they separated, they didn't divorce at that time. Um, and then probably six months later, my mom moved back in and everything was sort of back to normal as much as it could be back to normal, but ever since then, so 13 years old, my parents had never had a stable relationship after that.

There was always arguing. There was always really hushed conversation, arguments behind closed doors, but we knew what was going on. All my siblings knew what was going on. Then fast forward to the second time that they separated and then eventually got divorced a year later, I was 24, I believe maybe I was younger.

Um, maybe 23 and I had just moved back to Colorado after college and I wasn't living at home at the time, but I was living with a friend very close to my parents' house. And I just remember. My dad called me one day when I was at work. And he was like, Ashton, I need to tell you something. I was like, okay, what's going on?

And I could just tell that again. He was very upset. He was very scared to tell me whatever he had to tell me. He told me that my mom had been arrested for a DUI. So the du DUI kind of launched into him. Going through a bunch of paperwork that my mom had discovering that she had essentially a nine year long affair.

So she never ended the affair that she had when I was 13 years old. And so it was devastating for my family. My mom was kind of, my dad essentially kicked my mom out of the house. because he was just so angry, which understandably. So I don't blame him for his anger. We were all angry and it just really tore my family apart.

So much of like, what I understood to be family was kind of just lost in that moment. Mm-hmm I think it was lost when I was 13 years old when the first initial separation happened, but. This is when it was known that, okay, my parents probably aren't gonna get back together. So my parents lived separately in the same house.

So my mom lived in the basement while my dad lived upstairs for probably six or seven months of their divorce process, their divorce took an entire year and eventually my dad did move out after like seven months of them living separated in the same house. Every time you entered into that house, it was just full of just sadness and very, um, uncomfortable energy.

And I think I really stepped up cuz my mom did have to do, you know, jail time for her DUI. Unfortunately. So I had to kind of step up and help my dad with my younger siblings. Cause I still had siblings living at home that weren't able to drive, but my dad worked full time as a teacher at a different school.

So I kind of stepped up and instead of like grieving the divorce at that time. My grieving period really got delayed. So because I had to take care of my siblings and kind of help my dad work through some of the stuff that he needed to work through in the home life and all of that. Right. So when my parents finally separated for good and got divorced, my, they were finally living separately and it was still very, um, painful to go to my childhood home where my mom was living.

There was still a lot of anger. Mm-hmm I think all of me and my siblings had, and of course my dad still had a lot of anger, so that's kind of what happened and when everything kind of crashed and burned so that's, that's really. My, the background of my parents' relationship and looking back, I don't think that they ever had a very good relationship.

Sure. Yeah. But they hid it very well until I was about 13 years old is when it kind of starting get to get exposed. No. Wow. I can relate so much to really everything you just said. Um, on so many levels. I, yeah. Um, my dad actually had to spend some time in jail as well because he had broken the order of protection that my mom had, um, against him.

So many times that they like. Bumped it up a level to basically make it necessary for him to serve some time. So that is like, yeah, I can relate on that. That, that kind of punches you in the gut. Like, you know, your family has problems, then all of a sudden you're like, wow, I never thought. One of my parents who, you know, you looked up to I'm sure.

I know. I looked up to literally has to serve jail time. It's devastating. And that, isn't the only thing. Right? There's so many things that you said. I, I really, to so much, I know, even now going back to my. Childhood home can be difficult. Sometimes it's easier than others, but there there's a lot of emotions that come up when you're there and all sorts of just messiness, um, messy dynamics with your parents and things like that.

So there's a lot to handle that. I think most people, uh, don't realize my wife recently. Kind of caught on more to the reality of all this. Um, when we visited, uh, my mom's house and she's like, wow, like I never realized that you guys dealt with so much and it cuz it is so hidden. So I, yeah, I, I can relate again on, on so many friends when.

You were going through all of this, you obviously had to step into that parent role. Um, you said you kind of stuffed away a lot of the pain that you were going through and you didn't really have a time to grieve and heal from it. What, how, how else did you react to that aside from stuffing it away? Yeah.

Um, I will first say that me stepping into that kind of parental role was actually a very natural thing for me to do because. for most of my life, my parents kind of put me on a pedestal. I was the only child that really entered into, um, like youth group and really exploring my faith. And so mm-hmm for some reason, I don't know what the reason is, but they.

Thought that, because I was exploring my faith, I was more mature. So they did expect a lot from me. There were times where I had to like help my parents pay the bills. And so it was nothing new to me to step into that role as like a parent. But besides that, I think some of my coping mechanisms or my, the way that I kind of dealt.

And the things that I experienced, I think I was very angry and I definitely took my anger out on my boyfriend at the time. And he didn't deserve that. And that definitely affected our relationship. Obviously we're no longer dating, but mm-hmm, I think just so much anger, like was like boiling over and I.

Know how to express it correctly. And I didn't know how to talk about it because I felt like, especially in the circle that I grew up in, I grew up in a very conservative Christian circle. Mm-hmm divorce was taboo. I mean, you do not get divorced. That's what my parents taught me. And so. There was almost like a sense of shame and fear.

Mm-hmm surrounding the situation that my family found itself in. You know, I, I just remember feeling so afraid that anyone would find out that my parents were getting a divorce. And I was 24 years old. Like I shouldn't have been so afraid of that, but I was, and I was filled with so much shame and I also really kind of started struggling with my relationship with my other siblings.

Like we were all experiencing the same event, but we were all grieving in a different way. And so I couldn't understand their feelings and they couldn't understand my feelings cuz we were all experiencing it in a slightly different way. And. So I, I think it was just kind of grappling with the chaos of it all.

I, I just felt like I was just in a world of chaos and I didn't know how to express it. And so I just kind of ignored it for a long time. I ignored those feelings. I didn't ask for help. I didn't talk about it, cuz I was so embarrassed about my family and I, I even stopped going to my childhood church that I had grown up in.

My family had been that family that everyone knew at that church, you know, there were seven kids in my family. We were like that big Catholic family. Mm-hmm and then all of a sudden you didn't really see us anymore. And I just, I was so embarrassed about that. So I stopped going to that specific church and it was really sad cuz I felt like my sense of community was lost.

I felt like I didn't know who to talk to. Or who I could trust to talk to about it because I was afraid of being judged. Totally. And there were people that did my boyfriend's, my, my ex-boyfriend my boyfriend at that time, his family did kind of have that idea or that judgment that, oh, you know, you're, you're a product of divorce parents.

So that, I think that wow kind of affected me too, because I, they had that idea. And so I thought everyone had that idea. If they didn't have divorced parents. And I felt like somehow some something was wrong with me because my parents were divorced, even though I wasn't the one that made that decision.

Right. You were totally a, a victim in the situation. You had no say over it. And man, I am so sorry. That is to be honest with you really upsetting and, and, you know, I'm sure they didn't mean to hurt you, but. Just like judging you like that, just because you come from a broken home. Uh, it's just not right.

It's not fair. It was just like a lack of understanding. And I mm-hmm even, I didn't understand what was going on with my own family or what was gonna be the outcome. And so then for someone to have even more of a lack of understanding and a lack of compassion, it's just like really difficult because you already feel confused.

mm-hmm, totally, I completely understand what you're saying and I can relate on the anger front as well. It's been something that, you know, I've had to grapple with at different periods of my life. Um, I think it, it is a natural reaction as you know, in the grieving process. That's part of it, just, this anger comes up and I've talked to people who they like can't feel anger for the longest time, for one reason or another, they just kind of feel numb.

And then the flood gets open and they feel all this anger. And that is very overwhelming. I'm just curious on that front. Cause I think there's a lot of people listening right now who do struggle with that. Um, what have you learned to help manage your anger to help deal with it in, in constructive. Yeah, absolutely.

I think the best thing that has helped me is finding a third party. So like a therapist that is not biased, that doesn't know the full story. And just being able to talk to them about those emotions and that anger that you experience. I, I still get angry to this day about my parents and it's been. You know, a few years since my parents got divorced and totally, I still experience that anger sometimes because there are times where I just wish my family was normal.

I just wish that I could not have to celebrate two Christmases or two Easters or have to, when I travel back home to Denver, have to figure out how I'm gonna see both my parents on a weekend trip, you know, and make it fair for the other parent. And I, that makes me angry. and so finding a therapist was probably one of the best things that I could have done for myself.

And it took me a long time to get to that point. I will say it was not easy for me to admit that I needed therapy. It took a long time and I tried so many different therapists and I would go for like maybe two or three sessions, but then we started getting too. and I start had to start actually telling the truth of how I was feeling about things and it scared me.

So I would quit and I would find a new therapist. Now I've been consistently with the same therapist for a while now. And it's been so healing for me, just being able to talk to someone that doesn't know all the nitty gritty that doesn't even know. The people that I'm talking about, you know, they don't know my siblings, they don't know my parents.

So I can really say what is truly on my mind without feeling like I'm venting to a friend, you know, mm-hmm , I think I did try to talk to some of my friends about it and it just wasn't healthy. And I would try to talk to the person I was dating at that time. And it just wasn't healthy because. I would unload all of this stuff and burden them with all this stuff.

When they knew my parents, they knew my family members and it kind of tainted their relationship with my own family, which that's, I don't want that either. So a third party, unbiased person to talk to has been the best thing. And then the other thing is just. Taking time to do the things that I know I enjoy.

For example, I do enjoy painting. I can't say that I'm any good at it, but it's something that I enjoy to do for myself as kind of a therapeutic thing. Sure. So I've kind of made myself a promise that, okay, I will spend one day a week painting or drawing or writing. And those are things that I really enjoy doing.

And it's helped me kind of release some of those built up emotions that. Maybe I haven't talked to someone about yet. So, and then I'm a big runner too. So running has been very therapeutic whenever I feel angry or feeling like, like emotions are building up. Running has been a great thing for me because you can, I can just go on a run and not have to think about it.

And then I kind of forget about it for the day, you know? Totally. And I was able to kind of release it all on that run. So those are just some things that I have learned about myself through the process that I know have helped me a lot. And I hope, and I encourage anyone listening right now to. Do those things as well, just find something that you enjoy and do it once a week.

And then also find someone to talk to. That's not in your friend's circle, not in your family, someone that's external that doesn't know the full story. So good. I love that advice. And I have seen that helpful in my own life too, because I, I think sometimes what happens with me is, um, actually I'm going through a hard time.

Something's happening maybe with my family or some other area of life. And. Maybe I'm down or anxious about it, or just afraid whatever emotion I'm going through, whether it be anger or another. And I think I just start to neglect myself. And then also, I almost forget what it's like to do things that I love.

And then all of a sudden, after maybe like a couple weeks, I'll do something that I love. And I'll. Wow. Like, this is amazing. Like, I feel great. Like, this is so fun to play this sport. Like I love volleyball, for example, you know, at times I go weeks without playing volleyball and then all of a sudden I play volleyball.

I'm like, I need to do this more often. And then I, you know, don't do that. And it's no, it's such good advice. And, uh, it's so simple too. But like you said, with counseling, you might know that you need to do it, but it's a totally different thing to. Do it and stay with it because like you said, sometimes maybe, um, in terms of counseling, at least the emotions can be too intense.

So I admire you for pushing through that and getting to the point that you are. It is not easy. So seriously, I admire you a lot for that. Thank you. I will also say I've also learned how to set boundaries. I. Started realizing every time I would go home, the anger would come back. And I, not that I didn't wanna see my family, but I've come to learn that there are times that it's really hard for me to go back to my childhood home.

Like, like we mentioned earlier, or totally, it's really hard for me to celebrate Christmas, cuz it just doesn't feel the same when the whole, whole family's not together. And so those things like really started to affect me. I would get really angry after going home for a weekend or celebrating a holiday.

And I still visit my family, but I've learned, okay. When I visit Colorado, I'm gonna stay with a friend as opposed to staying at my childhood home mm-hmm and kind of creating that boundary and that balance to recognize, okay. Staying in my childhood home has not been healthy for me at this point. So. I'm gonna say with a friend so that I can enjoy my Christmas so I can enjoy my weekend with my family and catching up with my siblings and my parents, and then having a place to go afterwards.

So I can just kind of process and kind of take the time that I need to kind of rejuvenate after that. So, totally has another piece of advice that I would definitely tell anybody that. Find a different place to stay when you're visiting your family. If it's hard for you to go back home. And experience those emotions all over again.

That's so good. Yeah. You need that space to, like you were saying decompress and another trend I've noticed in my own life. And a lot of the people that we work with through sword is that when we're in those scenarios, being at home, we tend to just neglect our basic needs. Like we don't sleep as much, or we just don't.

How we should, or like you said, exercise and do all those basic things that we should be doing to take care of ourselves, but for one reason or another, we just tend to neglect our needs. So I think if you create that physical space, like you're saying, you're probably more likely to get better sleep to, you know, maybe get a workout in, eat a little bit of healthier.

Um, so I think, I think that's really wise. I wanted to circle back to the affair. Yes. So that is such a huge. Thing in your life, not just, you know, between your mom and your dad, how specifically did that affect you then? And even now? Yeah, I mean, it definitely, obviously the OB most obvious thing is that it definitely broke my trust and understanding of what true marriage is.

It didn't make sense to me that, you know, 26 years ago, my parents stood on the altar. Said their vows made all these promises to each other and then they didn't keep it. I still am confused by that. It makes me weary of marriage. It makes me kind of scared of marriage around the time that my parents were getting divorced.

I was also going through a breakup with an ex-fiance. And he was cheating on me too. So that combined with my parents, you know, that my parents scandal and all of that, it was, it made me question relationships a lot. And I just didn't really trust anybody moving forward. So after my parents got divorced and I started dating again, I just, just didn't really ever open myself up to anyone because I didn't want to get to the point.

Of, you know, essentially falling in love again and then down the road being cheated on because I, in my head, I thought just everybody cheated , you know? Yeah. I just thought that it was normal behavior because that's what had been shown to me essentially since I was 13 years old. And. Even still now I'm in a very stable, healthy relationship.

We've been dating for two years, even now. I still am like afraid that I'm gonna find out that he cheated on me, even though he has never indicated that he is not that type of person at all. He's the most loyal person I've ever met, but it's still just kind of like a question in the back of my head, like, oh my gosh, what if this happens again?

What if this is truly the behavior of everybody in this world? and I think too, I just don't really trust my mom very much with a lot. Like I just don't really tell her much. So it does affect my relationship with my mom, just honestly, it, it definitely makes me weary about sharing details about my own life and personal details about my own life with her.

Because one of the things that kind of happened when we discovered that my mom had an affair again. My sister, one of my sisters, she had later on shared with us that she knew that my mom. Had been cheating on my dad for however long she was, but that my mom had convinced her to not say anything. And so knowing that really affected me too, because it just seemed like we were kind of taught and raised to lie.

Like we were taught that it's okay to lie. And I know that rationally, it's not okay to lie. So I'm also afraid that, oh my gosh, what if I become like my mom? You know, I'm always afraid of being like my parents and I, I know myself well enough to know that I would never cheat on my significant other, or I would never cheat on someone or lie to someone mm-hmm , but it's still in the back of my head.

Like what if I become like that? Because that's kind of the home that I was raised in. Totally. No, and I have so many of those same fears too, and kind of in the back of my head, even though I know my wife is, you know, a good woman and she's faithful and everything like that, I ask a lot of those same questions even now, you know, years into marriage.

And it's something that has gotten much better with time. It's not like I'm walking around constantly thinking like, oh, she must be cheating on me or she's gonna just up and leave. But it does, it scars you on such a deep level that it's hard to maybe ever. I don't wanna say ever, but maybe ever get that totally outta your system.

Mm-hmm and I, I think we can progress to such a point where it's not a major concern or maybe even it isn't even a concern at all, but man, you can't undo that. You just can't undo that. And I totally get that. That would be in the back of your mind, even though the guy you're with is a great guy. Yeah. And you are a good woman and you wouldn't do that, but there's that fear.

I know that I feel. And so many people like us feel of repeating. What we saw our parents do. Mm-hmm and, uh, it can be very debilitating. It can be, it can be very much so I wanna, uh, switch over to relationships. You've already talked quite a bit about that, but I am curious, uh, in what other ways that maybe we haven't discussed yet, have you seen your relationship broken marriage?

You know, eventually their divorce affect your own dating relationships. Yeah. So I kind of touched on it a little bit, but after I, after my parents got divorced and I started dating again, it just definitely made me never really enter fully into a relationship. So with that being said, like, I definitely, um, struggled with my modesty and my purity because.

I was, I think I was trying to fill whatever wounds my parents had caused, but then the next easy step was just to leave after that, you know? And I think also it definitely makes me question if I ever truly, truly, truly wanna get married, I do wanna get married. I know that, but I think it makes, I am afraid of marriage.

And so. In any relationship that I had that was longer than, you know, six months marriage always came up as like a topic of conversation. And it just always made me very anxious. I, I had so much anxiety about that topic and it really took. A long time for me to kind of get over that anxiety in my new, in my current relationship, not new, we've been dating for two years, but, but then on the same hand, like token on this other hand, I wanted to get married so bad because I didn't want the person to leave.

Mm-hmm . So on one hand I was terrified of it because I didn't wanna repeat my parents' mistake, but I also put the pressure on to whoever I was dating that we needed to get married because we need to. Solidify this we can't, you know, you can't leave. Those are just two really extreme, unhealthy ways of thinking and, and dealing with a relationship.

I think I just kind of allowed myself to be used a lot by men, unfortunately, because I just didn't really see a lot of value in myself because of the same phrase, like, oh, I'm just a product of divorce, you know? Like I'm worth nothing else because I'm a product of divorce. There's clearly something wrong with me.

And that affected so many of my relationships, my current boyfriend, I mean, probably for the entire first year of us dating, he was so patient with me and he was so patient with my insecurities because. Day after day, he had to like, try to convince me that I was worth more mm-hmm and that's a really sad reality, but it's also really beautiful that he was so patient with me and stayed with me through all of that.

Until I could start believing it for myself. Mm-hmm , that's beautiful. I think even though it was really hard to get to that point, something really beautiful did come of it. You know, not all people are that patient and they probably get really sick of people being insecure and not having a lot of confidence, but he was very patient and he was very.

Encouraging. And he did give me a lot of, like, he basically gave me a confidence boost because of how well he treats me and how, how much he just cherishes me. And I have never really found that because I was just kind of throwing myself at these guys that I would be UN dating apps. Totally. I wasn't respecting myself in those relationships.

Then I met my current boyfriend and I slowly started to respect myself because he respected me. I think that's suddenly how it affected my, my relationships. And, and then also just like how I've grown from that. Sure. As well. No, that's amazing. And I think it's a good lesson to anyone listening who maybe doesn't come from a broken home, but they're dating someone from a broken home or maybe they're married to someone from a broken home.

It does require a lot of patience. Like I know same thing with my wife. She, you know, just had to go slower with me. I wasn't as quick to trust as some people are. And it was, yeah, I. Was afraid, really afraid and dealt with, like you said, crippling anxiety, um, at times about this whole topic of marriage and just so much fear of repeating what I saw in my parents' marriage.

Just not wanting that. And like you said, kind of going between those two extremes on, on one hand, just wanting to run the other way when it came to marriage. And on the other hand, um, honestly I struggled. Idealizing marriage just making it into completely the opposite of what I saw in my family and wanting that for myself to a point where it got like unrealistic.

It's like, no, that's not what it's meant to be. That's not real. That's not human. That's something else. It's some ideal that just doesn't exist in this world. And so I. I, uh, dealt with that too. And so I think it's good for people who don't come from our backgrounds to really listen to what you're saying here and understand that, okay.

Like there's not something wrong in the sense that this person you're dating has just like the only one in the world who feels this way. And it experiences these emotional problems and these fears and all that. No, it's actually pretty typical for people like us. And it does require a lot of virtue, a lot of patience, like you said, but your continued love, of course, assuming this is what, where you're meant to be, um, is incredibly healing.

That there's so much beauty to that. Obviously it's not supposed to be the primary source of our healing, but it it's such a huge part of it. and, and it has been in, in my marriage too. And I'm so happy to hear that you, um, you, you have a boyfriend like you do, it's, it's really, really beautiful going back to coping.

So you mentioned some, you know, the unhealthy ways that you had coped. Was there anything else you wanted to add on that front? Yeah, I mean, I definitely also coped with alcohol alcohol, a very big coping mechanism for me. When I lived in Denver still, I lived with a few of my close friends and we would throw parties at my house all the time.

And they, I mean, we were in the young adult Catholic community, so it was always other Catholics. You know, we would throw a Halloween party or a Mardi girl party, but I really used those social events to drink a lot. And it was because I just could not deal with the anxiety. And the anger and the sadness that I felt over my family.

So alcohol was kind of like my escape for a long time until I moved to Kansas city. When I moved to Kansas city, I only had one other friend here. And so my drinking kind of just stopped because, well, there was no one to drink with, I wasn't throwing parties anymore. Yeah. And I actually had to feel the emotions that I had been holding onto for so long and covering up with alcohol and.

You know, I had a few slipups here and there, but I also realized that, okay, you know, the history of my family, my mom had a DUI. I don't think that she was ever technically an alcoholic. Maybe she was like a closet alcoholic, but just the fact that she got a DUI shows that. This might be something that I struggle with.

Maybe I need to take a step back and not drink for a while. So I had committed to. A year of sobriety. Um, actually just a few months ago, like back in July, I was like, okay, I'm gonna commit to a year of sobriety. And God is really funny because a week after I made that commitment, I found out that I was pregnant.

So , you know, I just think it's really funny the way in which God is like giving me grace, because I don't know if I could have done a year of sobriety, but now I have to, because you know, I'm carrying a child and I. Not drinking alcohol for the past few months has been just so eye opening. Like I'm actually sticking with therapy for the first time in, in my entire life.

I'm actually able to express my emotions in a healthy way and then cope with them in a healthy way, instead of just being like, okay, like it's Friday night, like let's go out and drink. And not that alcohol is bad. But totally. Yeah, for me, it was definitely a coping mechanism instead of stopping at one or two drinks, I would drink three, four or five, you know, and, and that was just really unhealthy for me.

And it was my way of just numbing myself. So I couldn't feel. The confusion and the anxiety that my family's situation made me feel totally. And I think it's just, it's so common on so many fronts in our culture for people, our age to, you know, just go out and have fun and. Drink and get drunk and all that.

So it's, you're, you're definitely doing something, um, so good for yourself and I just commend you for it. It's it's amazing. And I think so many of us have different ways of coping. Like for one person, it might be alcohol for another person. It might be porn for another person might be cutting it. There's just so many different, uh, different things that we fall into that just aren't, you know, good for us at.

Some of the things that are done in excess other things that maybe should just never be done, but that's amazing. And I wish you luck in I'm sure. I know you're gonna do great. Thank you with, uh, with getting through that. That is not an easy thing. What, uh, what you mentioned counseling, you mentioned running, you mentioned a few other.

Things that you've done, like painting to help you cope and heal. Uh, was there anything else that's been really instrumental in your own healing process? Yeah, actually moving to Kansas city was really instrumental. I had kind of discerned and prayed about moving to Kansas city for probably about six months before I actually committed to moving here.

And one of my fears about moving was, well, I grew up in Denver. My entire family is in Denver. I need to be. Near my family in case something happens, but it wasn't until my sister, she lived in Ireland for a year and I went to go visit her when she was over in Ireland. And I was just kind of telling her, I was like, I'm just like not happy in Denver.

I feel so much anxiety living there. I feel so much pressure that I have to like be the sibling that takes care of my younger siblings. And I just feel like I haven't had any time to like really. Figure out how I'm feeling and how I'm dealing with the divorce. And I was telling my sister all of this and she's just listening.

She's like, Ashlyn, why don't you just move? And at first I was like, no, no, no. Like I can't do that. I can't move. And she was like, Ashlyn. I moved across the world, you know, and it's been so totally healing for me and not to say that you should run away from your problems, but there is something to be said about creating your own independent life.

And I had not been able to do that since my parents got divorced. You know, I had been thrown into this parental role. I had been thrown into just making sure that all my siblings were okay and making sure that nothing else in my family broke. I think ultimately my sister was like, you should just do it.

Like this is gonna help you. You're not running away from your problems. Your siblings are still gonna be there. You can still be a support system for your siblings, but you need to be your own support system for a little bit. Six months later, I moved to Kansas city and I just didn't even realize how healing that would be because now I can really, truly.

Have that distance that I needed. Mm-hmm to be able to process everything that had gone on the last few years, cuz I had like no time to process it until I moved two years ago. And I think it's been just been so instrumental because I don't think that if I had ever moved, I don't think I would have gone to therapy as long as I have.

I don't think I would've been honest about my feelings. And then also another thing that I'll mention is. Through moving to Kansas city and knowing how to like name my emotions and name my struggles and name my wounds by, by name, you know, identifying my wounds. That's helped me in my current relationship because now I'm able to be honest about this is really bothering me.

Mm, in my relationship, like, I can be honest with him about, you know, this isn't sitting right with me and we need to talk about it. Right. Whereas two years ago I could have never done that. Cuz I was not able to talk about my own. Feelings or anything. And I think moving to Kansas city really was a launching path for me to be able to truly open up my heart, to healing and opening up my heart to honesty and being honest with myself, cuz I don't think I was being honest with my myself and.

You know, it's not to blame Denver or to blame my family, but, you know, sure. I had kind of taken this role upon myself while I was living in Denver. I needed to be like the one that protected my family. And that's just the furthest from the truth. I never needed to do that. And I think moving to Kansas city kind of proved that because I learned that I can be independent while also still supporting my siblings.

Um, I can be an independent person that expresses their emotions in a healthy way without having to shove them away and not express them. So mm-hmm, moving to Kansas city has just been such a saving grace for me. So good. And I think there's an important lesson in what you just said about moving away.

Don't feel guilty guys. Like if you need to do that for a time again, I think Ashlyn's wise to balance that advice by saying you don't wanna just do it to run away from your problems, but you might need some space and that's okay. You don't need to feel guilty about it. You can do that and you can so love your family from afar.

Um, in different ways and that's exactly what you're trying to do, Ashland. I know that's what I'm trying to do, cuz my family is from the Chicagoland area and, and I don't live out there. And part of the reason I moved away too, was because it was a lot to handle. And the thing I felt most guilty about, I think was, uh, my siblings like feeling like I was just abandoning them.

But what I've realized over the years is that me pursuing. What I'm called to do in life, both in work and in my, you know, marriage now, it was really, um, good. Not only for me, but for my siblings too, for to model, hopefully for them, not that my wife and I have a perfect marriage, we have our struggles for sure.

But to some model for them like, Hey, you can have this too. Like, you don't need to be afraid of it. You can have it too. And it can be really good and it can be really beautiful. And I, I think in the long run, looking at kind of the long game, um, Doing, what I did was really good and healthy. Not only for me, but also for, for all of them as well.

And again, it's not like you're just walking away guys and never talking to your family. Again. Certainly there are situations where you need to take a break from talking to maybe one or both parents, or even relatives, perhaps even siblings too, but take the time and the space you need. Again, you're gonna become a healthier, more whole person so that in the future, you can be better at loving them setting boundaries and doing all those things that we need to do to navigate this really messy reality in our lives.

So such a good lesson Ashlyn, and I, I wanted to ask you too. Now that you've been working through a lot of this, I'm sure you would say that you're still work in progress and I am too. But how, how's your life different now that you've been through doing therapy and doing all those things that you mentioned?

Yeah, I think my, my life is just so much more stable, I think. Um, now that I'm not spending every weekend drinking and partying and. You know, coping with my emotions in an unhealthy way. And then also, because I've had kind of like that time and space away from my parents, I have been able to form better relationship with my parents for a while.

I didn't even talk to my mom. I didn't want anything to do with her. Um, and then like after a little bit, I didn't even talk to my dad for a while. And now I, I do think that my relationships with both my, my parents, they both improved. And I, I don't think that that would've ever happened if I had never taken the steps to enter into therapy and just learn how to set boundaries.

And my life is just so much more peaceful. I think too, you know, I, I'm not having to kind. Fight with my parents out of protection for my siblings and mm-hmm , um, I think that's just really powerful. It's just a really, my life is just so much more peaceful. And I wouldn't say that it's happier. I mean, there are difficult times still, and I still struggle with my parents divorce as I'm sure I will for the rest of my life, but I've, I've also grown to kind of appreciate my family in a different way.

My both my parents are remarried or my mom's getting remarried in November, so, okay. I've, I've been able to like, kind of welcome new members to my family, you know, my step parents and I don't call them my step parents, but that's what they are, you know, but I've been able to like welcome these people into my life and.

Kind of opened my heart to new people, even though I may not agree with it. I may not agree that my parents got divorced and I will always wish that my parents were still married, but I also recognize, okay, if this is making my, my dad happy or is this person's making my mom happy, then I'm gonna be happy for them.

And I will do everything I can to still have a relationship with my parents for a while. I thought I was gonna completely cut my parents out of my life. . But I also realized that that wasn't healthy either. Like that's not what I desired either. And I do understand that some people have to do that with their family members or what have you.

But I know that my parents still love me and they will still do anything and everything for me. if I needed it. So I was just never willing to completely cut them out of my life. Mm-hmm so I, I made it a goal of mine to just have a more peaceful relationship with them. And it has, it has been like that because I've been able to set the boundaries that I need to set.

I've been able to tell them when they cross a boundary mm-hmm and now we just have a more adult respectful relationship. Where I respect them, they respect me and we are able to just kind of live our own lives and then come together when it's a holiday and celebrate that holiday in peace. Instead of talking about the divorce or talking like angry at each other, or, you know, stuff like that.

All the things I, I get you. Yeah. That's beautiful. You've come a long way and I'm sure there's even more ahead for you. Um, if you stay on this path of healing really, really beautiful. Uh, I did wanna ask you, you've been a member of resorts community for the longest time. I'm just curious. Uh, what's been most helpful, um, for you that, that we've done, that we've produced that we've provided.

Yeah, absolutely. I. Hearing all the stories that you guys have shared on the podcast and then reading all the stories from the blog, and then I've actually gotten connected and made friendships with a few of the other members. It it's just helped me realize that I'm not alone and that, you know, my story is not that abnormal.

It's not that different than a lot. And I, because I think at the time when my parents got divorced, I thought, my gosh, my family must be the only family that. Is this messy, you know, you kind of feel like you're the only one. Totally. That's not true. Like the reality is, is this is a very sad reality for a lot of families.

And so to know that my story can be shared with other people and they are also sharing their story with me just has helped me heal tremendously. It also has provided kind of like a sounding board for my, for myself, like. Saying, am I crazy to feel this way? And someone saying no, that that's a product of, you know, that's the consequences of being a victim from a divorce.

Like we are victims and recognizing that we are not at fault and that this was something that was done to us has just been so powerful in my own life. And. Allowing myself to say, yeah, I'm struggling with this. What do you guys think that is just tremendously helpful for me to be able to have my feelings acknowledged by, by this community.

I mean, it really has become a community for me, a very. Healing community for me. And I just really appreciate how everything that I share through from my own experiences, that's just acknowledged and accepted. And then I'm given encouragement to keep moving forward. Amazing. Thanks for sharing that I don't mean to too around horn.

I just did wanna know kind of what's been helpful and what maybe hasn't been, but so good. And we'll link to, uh, some of the articles that, um, Ashlyn has written. So you guys can check those out. You're, uh, a good writer Ashlyn. And I remember the latest article that you shared, just talking about your story, um, was really powerful and beautiful, and that actually led to this interview.

So thank you for, for coming on. Thank you for being here. If people wanna connect with you, if they wanna talk with you, what's the best way to. Yeah. Um, just find me on Facebook. My name is Ashlyn Frederick, or you can, I mean, if you're in the restored group on Facebook, you can find me through that and just Facebook message me.

I'm also on Instagram, but I honestly don't know my Instagram handle. No worries. So, let me look it up really quick. Oh, it's Ashland underscore Kayla and Kayla is spelled K a I L a H. So you can definitely find me on Instagram as well, or just email Joey and he can get us connected as well. Yeah. Sounds great.

Happy to do that. And, um, yeah, we'll throw all that in the show notes for you guys, so you can contact Ashton if you'd like to, and there's a good incentive to, uh, join the ReSTOR community. You can talk. Ashley connect with, uh, the other people there, cuz there's, we're met over 50 people at this point. Um, and we're constantly we're, we're not constantly, I should say we're recently trying to find better ways to make the community even more valuable.

So lots of cool things coming, uh, in an upcoming months and year. Uh, so Ashton, thank you so much for being here. I wanna give you the last word. Um, you're, you're very wise. You have a lot of good things to say very articulate. So I'm really glad that, uh, you're able to join us and share, um, your story and your advice with our audience.

But I do wanna give you the last word. And so the question is this, uh, what words of encouragement would you give to someone who is listening right now feels really just broken and they feel stuck in life because of their parents' broken marriage, their divorce separation. What advice would you give.

Yeah, first and foremost, I will just say that you're not alone and that it's, it's okay to feel the way that you're feeling and you should acknowledge those feelings and allow yourself to feel those, but don't dwell in them for too long. I will also say that it does get better. Give yourself grace, be patient with yourself.

Allow yourself to explore healthy ways of healing that work for you, whether that's going for a run or going to therapy, I would encourage everyone. That's been through something like this to go through therapy, even if it's just for a few months, therapy is just something that's. Kind of taboo in our society, but it has really truly been the most helpful thing for me.

So I would just encourage you and anyone who's gone through this to just try to explore it and give it some time, um, to work, but also just know that there is a community for you in restored and that any member would be willing to talk to you. If you just need someone to vent, to, or ask questions to.

Find find a community like that. What maybe it's not restored, but I hope it is. But if it just find a community where you can truly talk about these things, cuz I think sharing your story is so important for healing and it's helped me with my own healing journey and I encourage you to just share your own story.

Because it will help aid in your healing.

If you wanna email Ashlyn, her email is in the show notes, or you can hit her up on social. Again, all those links are in the show notes. A question for you to think about when you're hurting, how do you deal with it? Give that some thought, try to identify the ways that you deal with your pain, that you deal with your problems.

You might be surprised most of us, I think, think that we know how we deal with our pain. We know how we deal with our problems, but if you actually kind of study it, you'll realize that there might be some unhealthy things going on. So first, just try to recognize that. And then you can make a plan to deal with them and to cope healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways.

So again, when you're hurting, How do you deal with it? If you wanna join ReSTORs online community, you can do that in three easy steps. Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/community. Again, ReSTOR ministry.com/community. You'll just fill out a form and then we'll add you to the group. And some of the benefits to joining is you'll have a safe place to speak.

Openly about the pain and struggles that you face. And this is with people who get you, who come from broken homes as well, young people who come from broken homes, it will help you not feel so alone and will also challenge you to grow into a better, stronger person. Again, if you wanna join our online community, just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/community.

If you wanna share your story with restored, we'd love. To read it. And what we'll do is we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article, but some of the benefits first reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiologic level. It makes you healthier, makes your brain healthier. Writing your story specifically is also healing.

There's been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events. In their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier and they're happier and so much more. And if you share your story with someone who is able to receive it, empathetically, it's actually healing as well on a neuro biological level.

And then also it gives guidance and hope to people like you, who come from a similar background who are maybe struggling as well. And so again, if you wanna share your story, just go to restored ministry.com/story restored ministry. Dot com slash story. There's a form there. That's gonna guide you in telling a short version of your story.

It takes a little bit of time to do, but not much at all. And then we'll turn that story into an anonymous blog article and we'll share with our audience. So share your story now. Restored ministry.com/story. The resources mentioned during the show notes ever stored ministry.com/ 55. Thank you so much for listening.

If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' separation divorce, or even their broken marriage, share this podcast with them, I know it's gonna be helpful. And always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#054: How to Stop Damaging Yourself with Your Words | Chris Stefanick

If you spoke to your friends the way you spoke to yourself, would those relationships become abusive? The words you tell yourself are often filled with lies, but you might not even realize it.

But those lies become your identity, which then dictates the quality and happiness of your life. Thankfully, our guest today can help you beat the lies and discover your real identity. In this episode, we discuss:

• Why it is so important to uncover the lies you believe about yourself

• How it’s simple yet difficult to replace those lies with the truth

• Two tactics and resources you can use today to change the way you talk to yourself and renew your identity

Buy Chris’s book: I AM: Rewrite Your Name—Reroute Your Life

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• I AM: Rewrite Your Name—Reroute Your Life

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

I have a question for you. If you spoke to your friends, the way that you talk to yourself, what would happen? Would you even have any friends for so many of us, those relationships would quickly turn abusive, but the problem is most of us don't even realize how badly we talk to ourselves. The subconscious second nature.

The words we say inside our heads are often filled with lies that we're not even aware of, but those lies told and believed long enough become our identity, which then dictates the quality direction and happiness of our lives. Does that sound important? It absolutely is. Thankfully my guest today can help you discover the lies.

You tell yourself and find your real identity. And don't worry, we're not talking about some phony self-help strategy with no substance. This stuff is actually helpful. You're gonna get a lot out of this episode, like learning why it's so important to uncover the lies you believe about yourself, how it's simple yet.

Difficult to replace those lives with the truth. And you're gonna get two tactics and two resources that you can use today to change the way you talk to yourself and discover your true identity. This is a very relevant topic for those of us who come from broken families. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy. Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 54 before I introduce my guests. I'm so excited to share with you guys that the book I've written for you is now live on Amazon.

You can buy it there, but first, a little background on the book. The sad truth is that most teenagers and young adults from broken families are traumatized by their parents' divorce or separation, but nobody gives them the guidance. They need to navigate the pain and problems. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, and much more.

And I experienced this stuff firsthand. I experienced this exact problem growing up and it really shouldn't be this way. My new book is an answer to that problem. The title is it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And it features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges.

By young people like us from broken families in the book. I answer questions like I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected as something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something's wrong with me? How can I heal and feel whole again, what can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things like my parents to force happen? And if you read the book and you implement the advice in your life, you're gonna see a lot of benefits such as you're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, you'll become a better, stronger, more virtuous person. You'll learn how to overcome emotional problems. You'll be given tactics to build healthy. Relationships, you're gonna find evidence based strategies that you can use to heal. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents.

You'll improve your relationship with God. You'll make better decisions that build a better future for yourself. And most importantly, you'll be given tools and resources to get the help that you need. And guys. This is not theory. This is practical down to earth. Common sense advice. That's based on research, expert, advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families.

And this book is specifically written for anyone who comes from a broken home, especially teenagers and young adults whose parents are divorced, separated, or really struggling in their marriage. And if that's not you, you probably love or lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids, a cousin, a boyfriend, a girlfriend, perhaps you lead them as a pastor youth minister.

Teacher, coach, whatever this book makes an awesome gift, it really gives them guidance or gives you deeper insight into what they're struggling with. So you can help them. You can buy the book on Amazon right now. Just click the link in the show notes, or you can search. It's not your fault on Amazon. Plus if you order the paper back in September, 2021, you'll get the ebook in audiobook for free.

And to claim those free bonuses, just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored. Dot com slash books, click on the September bonus button, fill out that form and then we'll email you the free ebook and audiobook. If you're not ready to buy, you can get the first chapters free. It's really easy. Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books.

Click on the button to get the free chapters. Fill out your name, your email, and then we'll send you the free chapters again. Restored ministry.com. Books. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for a long time and the feedback we've gotten so far has been really solid. So I know it's gonna be helpful for you.

A good tool, good resource to help you navigate the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. Again, you could get the free chapters that restored ministry.com/books or buy the book on Amazon today. My guest today is Chris. Chris is an internationally acclaimed author, speaker and television host, who has devoted his life to inspiring people to live a bold contagious faith Chris's live seminars, reach more than 85,000 people per year.

His reality TV shows videos. And radio spots reach millions of people and his educational initiatives are turning the tide in the Catholic church. He authored the chosen confirmation program, which has already formed more than 500,000 teens. Chris is actually a graduate of the same university that I went to Franciscan university of Stoneville.

He's also the founder and president of real life Catholic and nonprofit, which operates as the headquarters for Chris's various initiative. Above all. Chris is proud to be the husband to his wife, Natalie father, to their six children and grandfather to his granddaughter. Don't wanna make you wait any longer.

Here's my conversation with Chris Stephanic

Chris. Thanks so much for making time to be here with us today. May it's an honor. Thank you for having me. I think this is such a relevant topic for people, especially who come from broken families. And in the book you say that there's a war of words happening in your mind. The outcome of that war.

Determines your destiny. That's a bold statement. What do you mean by that? Uh, the, uh, the devil's real victory in our life. We, we think it's maybe a sin we committed for some, uh, wound we're suffering from, or, or, or something hard we've been through. No, I, I don't. The real victory is when we experience a, a difficulty or commit a sin and then label our.

Based on that, because then we continue to live out of that identity for the rest of our lives. You know, the, the way we speak to ourselves and the way we talk to ourselves and label ourselves shapes how we feel, which shapes how we act, which shapes how our entire life pens out. So really the, so many of the, the spiritual battles we face.

So many of the personal battles with getting to the next level. In relationships in career in happiness. So many of it comes back to when you dig deep enough, how you see. How you talk to yourself, it's that war, that fundamental war of words that determines really the outcome of your life. Mm-hmm uh, and, and a brother.

We, we, we really, we really can't get it wrong. We can't keep getting it wrong, you know, and I'm so tired of seeing people get it wrong. And you could tell there's times where I'm getting it. When people are walking through life, looking like they got the crap beat out of them. When they look tired and heavy.

It's so often because we're beating ourselves up on the inside and God's word tells us who we are. I mean, if you're a child of God, if you believe the things in the Bible, you actually believe the maker, you believe you're you're, you're crazy enough to believe that this universe didn't come from nothing.

That there's a. And that he loves you. If you're a Bible believing Christian, that that's the really crazy, amazing, beautiful part that makes life beautiful. And, and then he would die for you. If, if you just believe that as a matter of faith and leave it at church and don't let it inform the dialogue happening inside your head, you're not really experiencing a redeemed life.

And I'm just so tired of seeing the people of God look so tired we should look different. Absolutely. I think a lot of the people that we work with that restored often just feel so hopeless. And I think this ties into that. So well, I'm curious, what are some of the most common things that people say to themselves that distort their identity?

So I, I, I wrote a book about this called I am, and I have a program, a 33 day challenge program called I am. And the, the book goes through various wrong identities and, uh, replaces the, the lives, tell ourselves with God's work. And the, uh, the, the program is a little more focused in, in a straightforward journey.

And, uh, it's man, I'll tell you there's it, it could be any number of lies. I mean, I, I, I kind of pinpoint a couple key ones just to help people form the habit of becoming aware of what's going on inside so they could pinpoint their particular lie. But I, but I really think that whatever God is calling you to, however, he's calling you to glorify him, to magnify him forever.

The evil one sees that, and he tries to help you come up with a name for yourself that directly opposes. It's a matter of finding out what lie you're telling yourself, finding the opposing truth, and then engaging your will in the process, learning to start renouncing that lie and claiming the truth. And I, I think of Peter, it was one of my favorite scripture stories about this.

Here's Peter called to be the chief of the apostles that the first Pope of, if you're Catholic, you believe he's called be the first Pope. If you're not even a believer, you clearly think this guy's called to be a great leader. First time he encounters Jesus, he says, get away from me. I'm a sinful. So he named himself, he named himself sinful man.

He told Jesus his name and he, he did this in a moment where he could see that he was being singled out and called. He'd get away from me, Lord. I'm a simple, you got the wrong guys. What he was saying. I don't measure up. There was a lot packed into that statement and his name was Simon at the time and Jesus changed his name and he changed his name in a place called Caesar Philippi, where there's this humongous rock overshadowing, this town.

And I've been there. It's, it's, it's a mind blowing place and it's not part of the, it was not part of the Jewish community. It was a pagan. It was on the board of Lebanon. So there was no reason for them to even go here and it probably took a day and a half just to walk there. Jesus took a lot of time thinking about this location.

yeah. And, and, and went way out of the way it was, it was the opposite direction from Jerusalem to Galilee way outta the way, just to get this image in Peter's head. Peter you named yourself, you name yourself sinful, man. I have a new name for you, right in front of that massive rock named him, Peter, which means rock.

And why, why would he do that? Why would he go through the trouble? Because he was gonna make him the chief of the church in the early church, the, the, the fir the first folk. He wanted his identity to form how he led, how he acted, how he felt. He knew that everything hinges first and foremost on how Peter saw himself.

And he wanted that. To stick in his brain. Every time someone said his name, every single. You massive rock passing the fish. a little dramatic, right? Right. Yeah. I'm, God's, God's dramatic. Like that love is dramatic. Yeah. So, uh, that's an essential thing, but what, what is it for you? And for me, you know, is God calling you to lead the God that even one wants to convince you you're incapable or you're weak, but there's all, there's certain ways that God is, is calling all of us.

You know, we, all of us are, are, are blessed. I mean, our, our eternal state of being is gonna be eternal blessedness. And the even one wants to convince us that we're forgotten or we're cursed. I mean, all these lies circle around people's heads. That that have nothing to do with what God sees us. And when you disagree with God, the maker of all things about who you are and what you're worth in that equation, you're the one who's wrong.

yeah, absolutely. There's no way you can be right there. I, I think this seems simple on the surface, Chris. But once you start talking about it and think about it, I think it's a little trickier than it seems because so often I think the lies that we tell ourselves become so second nature, they're just subconscious they're there.

And so unless you really take time to go through your IM book or the course or something similar where you're doing some deep reflection on this, it can just pass over your head. I know for myself, one of the things that I catch myself doing often just on a subconscious level again, It's calling myself an idiot.

Like, are you idiot? You know, I do. I make a mistake. I do something wrong. You're you idiot, you idiot. So I think there's a real need to dive into this. It can't just be something that oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. I shouldn't be mean to myself. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's simple, but simple is not easy.

Right. In fact, it's very difficult to boil things down to the simple again and much of our lives. We're trying to get back to the simple within marriage. We're crying out loud. Oh, Nothing could look simpler. I love this person. She loves me. I wanna give my life to her. She wants to give her life to me.

the amazing thing. Is it actually, is that simple? But it's not easy to keep it, that, that simple and to work through all the crap that comes in the way of keeping it, that simple, that wants to destroy that, that, that beauty, that pure crystal line beauty , but that's, that's the, uh, the same journey as the, I am, you know, there's, there is a simplicity that I, I want to introduce people to, because most people, they, they don't win this battle cuz they don't even know that they're in it.

They don't show up. We're we're passive recipients of the things that go on in our heads is that St. Paul two Corinthians 10, we take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ. I think that's a call from, from God's word to say, Hey dude, wake up. You know, people start to despair because they, they conclude there.

I, I can't win this battle. This is just how I am. So I'm just gonna sit here in. Just after years and years of telling yourself something, you just start to believe that on such a deep level, that it's really difficult. It can be difficult to change it. It can, uh, it takes a lot of vigilance for me whenever I feel literally punched in the gut.

I, I realize my old lies are coming up and, and I, and sometimes I feel like I'm gutted literally gutted and I, I'm not aware. That where it's coming from. But then I have to say, oh, this is, this is coming from somewhere. This feeling in the gut's coming from some, oh, I'm, I'm buying into the lies that I whispered so quietly to myself.

I don't, I don't even know I'm doing it anymore. Time to, to name it time, to renounce it, time to claim the truth. Again, again, again, until I PR keep practicing. It's like going into the boxing ring man, and keep punching back until it becomes second nature. That's right. That's right. And you start to. And your life starts to take a new shape.

My book's helpful. The program's helpful. Sometimes counseling is helpful to help people unpack more, you know, whatev whatever you need. Just, failure's not an option though. Losing in this. Battle's not an option. Yeah. So true. I think for some of us, if we treated other people, the way that we talked to ourselves, it would be an abusive relationship.

We'd have no friends, so, oh yeah. Yeah. Note, what are one or two tactics that everyone listening right now can use to change the way that they talk to themselves? Obviously the book and the course go into it in much more depth, but what's one or two quick things that people can use right now. Yeah. It really boils down to number one, realize that you are talking to yourself.

You know, we think without thinking about what we're thinking, realize that you are labeling yourself. There is a way you've decided to see yourself as a narrative that you tell yourself about who you are and, and it does. And, and you do have power over. So that's, that's, that's two you that you're not a passive recipient in the, in this story, you have to enter the battle.

Um, so show up for it. , mm-hmm, show up for that battle and, and, uh, it really the, the, all this, both the book and the program, and so much of counseling. Again go if you need it, but I might be able to save you many thousands of dollars.

so much of it really lands on identifying, naming how you're lining yourself. And then engaging your will, not every thought and feeling gets a vote. Not every one of them has power, unless you give it to that thought or feeling. All right. So stop being a victim to what's going on inside your own head show up for that battle.

And then, you know, are you believing that you're weak? You actually can make a difference, but literally out loud. I've renounced the lie that I'm weak. And I send that lie and all the evils associated with it, all the demons associated with it, to the foot of the cross for Jesus to send to hell when they belong.

And I claim the truth that I can, that I'm strong, that I can do all things to Christly strengthens me, that I'm capable. You know, what, what are you, how are you aligning yourself? I maybe I've renounced a lie that I'm dirty. And I claim the truth that I'm pure. I mean, I literally mean you gotta look in the mirror and say it, man.

You know, preaching is not something you, you, you just go to podcasts for. I mean, the reason that the church has a preaching ministry from, at mass on Sunday to podcast or Catholic radio to whatever the heck you consume, it's, it's all useless. If you don't learn to preach to yourself, that's the purpose of all this.

Is to teach you to start preaching yourself, could form your thinking to the word of God. And then you experience what it means to be a free, liberated, happy son or daughter of God, regardless of what's going on in your life. Amazing Chris, uh, about the book and about the program there, uh, the book itself is a 33 day exercise, right?

Is the program similar? Yeah, it is. It's, uh, I think it's 33 days in the program. Uh, the, the book is more, it's more of a circular thing. It it's. The program leads through different phases. That's, it's more of a linear course that lands on, uh, on making the firm commitment. We just talked about the book lands there too, but it's, it's more meditations on various lies.

People tell themselves in truths from the word of God, just, just to get you in the habit of bathing in those beautiful truths on a daily basis. So I I'd love people. Ideally you go through the program and then you get the book and you just keep reading it again. And. Just, just keep practicing, but you know, there's a lot of people who, however, the heck you feel drawn to do this stuff.

Just dive in. Okay. Sounds great. And how could people buy it and how could people follow you? Uh, it's all on real life, catholic.com, both buying that and following us sounds great. We'll throw that in the show notes for you guys, Chris, thank you so much for your time. Just wanna give you the, the final word and about how this can really make someone's life better.

Thank you brother. Oh, and also you could, you could text the word Chris to the number 4, 4 1 4, 4, and you sent up for a newsletter. I I'm just, I I'm honored by the chance to talk about this. This for me, you could probably tell by talking, none of this comes from, um, you know, I I'm, I have it all together.

Let me tell you how to live. A lot of this comes from spiritual battles have been through myself and the liberation I've experienced, uh, by engaging those battles. And I'm really, uh, Oh, I'm just honored to, to, to share this with you. Thanks for letting me in, because I, and I'm so excited of what waits for you.

on the other side of you entering that battle. Everybody needs this, this isn't just for people who are, who feel particularly acutely broken, which sometimes we all do. Right. But then a lot of times we feel like I got it together. No, no. Everybody has a battle when it comes to identity, everybody. And God is calling us the victory and he's allowing us to be a part in that battle.

Cause he wants to make us strong. He wants us to share his joy of victory. He can just win himself.

Chris is the man. I'm really glad you got to listen to that interview and a reflection question for you to think about. What lies do you believe about yourself? What lies do you believe about yourself? For me, some lies I've believed is I can't build love that lasts. I can't get married. I can't be a good husband.

I'm not enough. There's so many more, but those are just a few that I I've really wrestled with. And what about you? Give it some thought. Write it out. Talk it out with a friend. And if you pray, pray about it, bring it to God. Then I recommend picking up Chris's book. I am wherever you buy books, there's a link to Amazon in the show notes where you could buy his book and his program, or course like he mentioned, can be purchased at real life.

catholic.com real life, catholic.com. Once you're on that webpage, just click coaching, and then you can find the, I am. Renew your mind program, you can sign up for yourself or you can gift it. You can sign up for someone else as well. And then finally, you can buy the book that I wrote for you on Amazon. By clicking the link in the show notes or searching, it's not your fault.

A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. You can also get the first chapters free restored ministry.com/. Books, just enter your name and your email on there, and we'll send you those first chapters for free. Again, restored ministry.com/books. The resources mentioned are the show notes@restorministry.com slash 54.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's really struggling from the impact of their parents, separation or divorce, share this podcast with them. I know it's gonna be helpful. Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#053: Does a Lack of Peace Prove Your Relationship Isn’t Meant to Be?

Many young people from broken families struggle to discern their relationships and calling in life because they feel so anxious and uncertain. The trauma of their broken family and the effects that stem from it often interfere with their ability to discern properly. 

In this episode, we dive into that and more:

• Why a lack of peace isn’t an automatic indicator that a relationship or vocation isn’t meant to be

• How to discern if you feel anxious and uncertain

• How our desire for 100% certainty prevents us from living the life we were meant to live.

Plus, we offer a sneak preview of our brand new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

Get the FREE chapters from our new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

A real struggle for young people that come from broken families is that we have a hard time discerning our relationships and our calling in life because we feel so anxious and uncertain about so many things. And it's not a topic that's really discussed much, unfortunately, but we've seen a clear trend in the people that we work with.

The people that we serve through restored, basically the trauma of our broken family and the effects that stem from. Interfere often with our ability to discern properly. And so we're gonna dive into that. We'll explain what we mean in this episode. And we're gonna talk about things like why a lack of peace doesn't automatically mean that your relationship or your vocation isn't meant to be.

We'll also discuss how to discern, how to make good decisions. If you feel anxious or uncertain, and then we'll touch on how our desire as people who come from broken families for a hundred percent certainty, often prevents us from living. That we were meant to live. We also share some personal stories about how Miranda and I have struggled with this and what we've done about it.

Also, you're gonna get a sneak preview of our brand new book and how you can get the book and a special offer too. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 50. Like I've mentioned, I've written a book for you, and I'm so excited to share it with you.

The sad is that most teenagers and young adults who come from broken families are traumatized by their parents' divorce or separation, but nobody gives them the guidance that they need to navigate the pain and the problems. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, and so much more.

And I've experienced this firsthand. I know this problem and it shouldn't be this way. My new book is an answer to that problem. The title. It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And it features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by people like us from broken families.

And some of the questions we touch on in the book are I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident? After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage?

I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How could I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? What has God let bad things like my parents' divorce happen. And if you read the book and if you implement the. Into your life. You're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, you're just gonna become a better, stronger and more virtuous person. You'll learn to overcome the emotional problems that you face. You'll be given tactics on how to build healthy relationships. You'll find some evidence based strategies that you can use to actually heal.

These are not complicated. They're simple. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents. You'll improve your relationship with God. You make better decision. That build a better future for yourself. And most importantly, you're gonna be given the tools and resources. You need to get the help that you need.

And this isn't theory, guys, this is down to earth, common sense advice based on research, expert, advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families. So this book is really for anyone who comes from a broken home, especially teenagers and young adults, whose parents are divorced, separated, just really struggling in their marriage.

And if that's not you, my bet would be that, you know, someone, you love someone, you lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids, a cousin, boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever. Perhaps you lead people like that. Maybe you're a pastor youth minister teacher, a coach. In that case, you could use the book to really understand people who come from broken families and offer them a resource that will help them navigate the pain and the problems that they face.

The book comes out on September 21st, 2021. And if you're listening before that date, you can get the first chapters free on our website. I'll tell you how to do that in a second. If you're listening after that date, you can just buy the book on Amazon, or you can still get the first chapters for free to get those free chapters.

It's really easy. Just go to. Restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. You can click the button on that page to get the free chapters. And then you're just gonna fill out your name, email, and we'll send you those free chapters again, just go to restored ministry.

Dot com slash books. Plus if you ordered the paper back in September, 2021, we're gonna give you the ebook and the audiobook for free. And so hop on that. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for months and the feedback we've gotten from people who've seen an advanced copy has been solid.

So I'm really excited. I know this is going to help you. And so if you wanna get those free chapters, you can do that today@restorministry.com slash books. One side note, this version is specifically written for Catholic teen and young adults. We've just noticed that the majority of our audience comes from that demographic.

And so if you're not Catholic or you're not a teen and young adult, is it still useful for you? The answer is absolutely. Yes. We've heard again and again, how helpful our content is for everyone above that age range as well. And if you aren't religious. You can just skip the parts in the book that don't align with your beliefs.

It's still gonna be helpful for you too. And in this episode, you're gonna hear part of the audio book and then my editor Miranda, and I discuss the content where we add some stories and give some more advice. And I do apologize. You're gonna hear some technical glitches. We really try to produce a high quality show, but sometimes it's unavoidable that we hit some technical glitches.

So I'm very sorry about that. Thanks for your patience. So here's a portion of the audio book from our new book. It's not your fault

question, 31. How can I discern my calling in life when I feel so anxious and uncertain? When it comes to discerning your vocation or a relationship, you may have been told that you'll know it's the right decision. If you feel at peace about it, any uneasiness is a sign that it's not meant to. Along those lines.

One writer offered this question as a sign that a relationship is not meant to be quote. Do you feel anxiety when you think of marrying them end quote, but that advice is only half true. A lack of peace could very well mean that this person or vocation isn't for you, but for most people, especially from broken families, it usually requires more Digg.

In other words, a lack of peace is an important indication that something is happening that is worthy of attention, but it doesn't automatically mean you're pursuing the wrong vocation or dating the wrong person in college. I dated a great girl. However, I felt an incredible amount of fear, anxiety, and an overall lack of peace from the beginning of our relationship.

It was so overwhelming that it almost interpreted it as a sign that it wasn't meant to be. It was so overwhelming that it almost interpreted it as a sign that it wasn't meant to. Thankfully I dug deeper and realized I was dealing with depression and relationship anxiety. For three months of our relationship, I felt extremely numb and anxious.

I could barely think straight an argument could be made that I shouldn't have been dating at all. And we did take a break during that time, but had I run at the first sign of a lack of peace, I would've missed out on a beautiful relationship. The source of my lack of peace was not the vocation of marriage or the woman I date.

It was my fear and anxiety about love, relationships and intimacy. I was terrified of repeating what I saw in my parents' marriage. I was afraid of opening up about my past and my current struggles that fear and anxiety interfered with my ability to discern clearly or blended me. I felt unable to discern properly this pattern repeated in most of my relationships though.

It got less intense. The more I. Another cause for my anxiety was my desire for 100% certainty. And my decision to date, the girl I was with, I wanted a sign from heaven. I had to learn the hard way that God doesn't usually make it super obvious what we should do. It would be nice. Wouldn't it? Afraid of making the wrong decision, afraid of failing in the relationship.

Afraid of repeating my parents' mistakes. I felt so uncertain that I didn't want to decide it was too dangerous. I thought even after I finally made a decision, I second guessed myself because I struggled with self-confidence. The first thing that helped me was to identify that fear and anxiety were at the core of my lack of peace.

Therefore, I didn't need to freak out that the relationship wasn't meant to. Once I knew that I could start working through my fear and anxiety so I could see more clearly. Whenever I felt that anxiety, I learned to be patient with myself instead of immediately doubting my relationship or vocation. So if you have a similar experience of overwhelming fear and anxiety in a relationship, make sure to question the root of your anxiety.

Is it the relationship? Is it this particular vocation? Do you struggle with anxiety? Past wounds, identify the root of the fear and anxiety that you are experiencing for people like us. It's often not the external circumstance that is causing it. For example, the relationship or the person you are dating, but it is rather a reaction to past wounds that are being triggered.

Don't isolate yourself, involve older wiser people who can give you advice and guide you share your experience and discernment with people you trust, especially people whose opinion you value, get their thoughts on whether you and your significant other are a good fit or. That vulnerability will help you much more than keeping everything secret.

That helped me, especially when I couldn't see clearly because of my emotions. So receive the love of others during this time, especially for mentors, this will help you make a better decision and feel confident in that decision. The affirmation and love of a mentor gave me the confidence I needed to pursue my.

Be aware of your tendency to be a people pleaser. It won't serve you well when making big decisions. In fact, it will harm you since you might be more interested in making someone happy than in finding what you're called to do with your life. Naturally, make sure you are praying. It helps to calm your heart, mind, and soul, but more importantly, it helps you connect with God.

His opinion and guidance are more important than anyone else's. He knows you better than you know yourself. So get his input too. Lastly, do your best, not to stress about your vocation, keep your desire to do the right thing and to follow God's will at the center. A pure heart and action will lead you down the right path.

When you begin to feel stress or anxious about your vocation. Try praying this prayer. My Lord God, I have no idea where I'm going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end nor do I really know myself. And the fact that I think I am following your will, does not mean that I'm actually doing so, but I believe that my desire to please, you does, in fact, please, you and I hope I have that desire in all that I'm doing.

I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this, you will lead me by the right road though. I may know nothing about. Therefore will I trust you? Always though. I may seem to be lost. And in the shadow of death, I will not fear for you or ever with me. And you will never leave me to face my perils alone.

For more guidance on discerning your vocation by father Steven W's book, how to discern your vocation. You can also download it for free with the bonus material. Another helpful resource is father Timothy Gallagher's book discerning the will of God, which is based on the spiritual exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyola

Miranda. Can you relate to anything in the content in the book? Like, was this a struggle for you as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean that overwhelming sense of anxiety hit me so many times. I mean, yeah, it was pretty much a constant battle for me in my dating life, especially I remember, I don't know who it was if it was some in the, in church or if it was something I read outside or.

Just someone's advice. But I do remember that moment when, you know, someone said there should be peace regarding dating. And I was like, crap. It's like, well, I'm never gonna get married then yeah. It's like, oh shoot. And you know, to be fair, I, I do think that. You know, obviously the first few relationships weren't meant to be mm-hmm

Um, however, that doesn't mean that they weren't supposed to happen. I think we talked about this at some point in the book and, um, in other material, but. You know, anxiety pushes people away, um, or it can push people away. And especially in relationships, it kind of causes us to, or it can cause us to either withdraw from people or to clinging to them.

And so either way you end up kind of creating space. From the other person. So, so, and then it just, it causes this kind of vicious cycle in a way you feel the other person pulling away or you feel yourself pushing them away, which then causes more anxiety mm-hmm etc. Cetera. And so I remember with my husband, like one of the things that I professionally had for the first.

Few months of our relationship, which we didn't date that long, but definitely for fair amount of time, I would always have a stomach ache leading up to us hanging out, or during at least like the first half, you know, the beginning that we were together. Mm-hmm . And so that I realized in therapy, you know, she kind of helped me see that that was actually a trauma response.

And, um, that I was reacting to. Kind of my past experiences with men, my, the, the distrust that I had of them because of a lot of what happened with my parents and, and their separation mm-hmm and the woundedness that was there that existed. And so it was really hard for me to let that go, like to not let that be a, um, yeah, like a sign, I guess, of like, this isn't meant to be, because I feel uneasiness.

Like even physically, I just feel. Like almost ill, you know? Yeah. Cause of the anxiety. So, and you know, he, he is my husband, so obviously like it, it was good for me to be with him. It was good that we were dating. But nevertheless there was anxiety. So if I had, you know, maybe taken to heart, someone's advice of like, yeah, if you're, if you're, if you're experiencing some anxiety, like maybe that's not the right relationship.

And I remember doubting a whole lot, and it was actually a lot of my, my close friends and family that encourage me in the relationship and said, you know, maybe this anxiety's kind of unfounded. And along with my therapist too. Um, she kind of helped me work through that. So I absolutely can identify with, with what you were talking about in here.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I wish people would talk about this more often. I feel like there's a huge misunderstanding when it comes to, you know, figuring out you're calling in life, figuring out who you're supposed to be with, if you're supposed to get married, all that. And I think people would, uh, really benefit from having conversations like these more because the advice about peace, like we mentioned in the book, Is good advice, but it's kind of half true.

Like there should ultimately be a level of peace, but that doesn't mean that there's not gonna be some sort of interference based on our past wounds and all the different things that we mentioned in the book. So I think it, it is really important to keep that in mind. And I relate so much with your experience.

Like I mentioned, uh, in the book, there was a relationship. I mean, pretty much every relationship I've been in has had some level of anxiety where I thought maybe it was meant to be because of. Like I said, it got better as I went on, but this one relationship early on in college, it was just so intense.

It was miserable at times because my emotions were just all over the place. And I was trying again, to make the right decision. I was like, am I meant to be with this girl or not? Um, am I meant to, you know, be married or maybe pursue a different vocation? It just caused so much anxiety and I just felt so lost at the end of the day, especially when it just came to any sort of discernment and you did better than I did in the sense that you knew.

Take this to people, which is awesome. I mean, maybe you didn't right away. You can elaborate on that. But I just held this in Miranda. Like I didn't talk to anyone about it. I didn't tell the girl I was dating. I didn't tell really many other people in my life. I just thought, you know what? Something's like wrong with me for feeling this, like everyone who talks about dating or their relationship, they'll say things like, well, it just felt so natural.

And it was just, we just knew it was meant to be, it was love at first sight. I'm like, I've never experienced that. I, you know, there's something wrong with me. And so I literally did think something, uh, was perhaps wrong with me, but there was peace eventually when I was able to, uh, basically stop forcing myself to feel a certain way or thinking that there was something wrong with me for feeling a certain way, but really just like letting myself feel whatever I was feeling.

And. Didn't fight them. Uh, I just let myself feel what I was feeling. I remember I had, uh, dinner with, uh, the girl I was dating and her family. It was new year's Eve. It was an awesome, awesome dinner. We had a great time. And I remember after that, we were just sitting around a fire and for some reason that whole experience and just the idea that, okay.

I can just feel whatever I'm feeling. I don't need to dictate it or manipulate. Or manufacture it that really, really helped me find peace and ultimately helped that relationship grow. I think one of the huge, um, misfortunes of this anxiety is that it robs you of something that should be enjoyable. That should be fun, that should, that we should learn and grow from mm-hmm

And I think like you, you know, you were saying. Anxiety, like other people are talking about the, the joy and the delight and yeah, just like all the goodness that there is getting to know another person and growing, um, with them. And. Know, just all the dating relationships can show us. And, you know, just enjoying that time, mm-hmm anxiety can kind of, it, it steals that, you know, can steal that from us.

It's not cool, bro. You know, like it's, it's, it's not, uh, not, should not be that way and definitely wish that I had enjoy. The dating relationships. Cause you know, I'm very blessed. Like I can say that the guys that I dated were phenomenal looking back, it's like, man, I, I wish that I had just enjoyed that more and um, not let the anxiety cripple me so much.

And even looking for my relationship with my husband, I wish that I had not questioned the process so much, um, because I think it tainted and otherwise, you know, beautiful, wonderful season. It's good that, you know, after that initial relationship in college kind of, we were able to come around. Grow out of it, almost at least a little to a degree, but I think for people like us, man, it can be a huge struggle.

Totally. Yeah. So much uncertainty, like you said. And I think it is, it is a real struggle for that. People like us are more, you know, likely to fall into and perhaps people listening right now didn't have this experience. Um, but I would say the majority of people that we've. Work with, through restored and friends of mine, people I know who come from broken families.

There's a lot of issues when it comes to dating and relationships. And that's just a theme overall that we've seen. But yeah, so many good points that you made. And I love what, you know, you had people in your life kind of giving you feedback, saying that your doubt was unfounded in certain situations, which is, I think it's so freeing.

I think one of the things that's needed is having people really keep you ground. and say like, well, you're not actually being objective about this. You're actually maybe letting your emotions, um, guide you here and make you think that something is a bigger deal than it actually is. Or maybe even think that something is a problem when it's not even there to begin with.

So I think, I think it's good to. You know, keep that in mind and to have people speaking into it, but I'm curious to get your input on something. I remember just wanting so badly to like tell the girl I was dating, you know, at the beginning of college, it was like end of high school, beginning of college to, to be accurate.

But I, um, remember just like feeling like I couldn't. I felt like she wouldn't really understand where I was coming from, because I didn't really understand what was going on myself. I didn't put my finger on it until later that I was dealing with, you know, anxiety and depression and just like overall numbness.

And so it was difficult to even share that with anyone, cuz I didn't have the words to. Tell them describe what I was going through. So that was a kind of its own cross in a very real way. But, um, I'm just curious. Do you think it's helpful for people in this situation to explain their anxiety and their concerns to the person they're dating?

Or should there be some level of like filtering going on because. When my relationships later on, I learned that there needed to be a balance. Cuz if I was just opening up all the time about all these feelings, I was having, the anxiety that I was experiencing, then I, that would actually make things worse than the relationship.

Kind of like you said, it would cause. That person to doubt too. It would, then that would make me more anxious and perhaps them anxious and just cause all sorts of issues, which are the opposite of peace. So anyway, I'm just curious what you think. If there should be some level of, um, vulnerability there or if there should be some filtering and the last thing I was just say before I let you.

Jump in. I was talking to other people about it. Eventually. Eventually I did have mentors or friends in my life who I couldn't talk to about. So I think you have to talk to someone I'm just not sure if it's appropriate to talk, uh, at least without any filter to the person you're dating. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, that's a tough one. I, I definitely can say my instinct was always to withhold. Um, but I do think that was to a fault. Um, I was very blessed to have an incredible therapist. I would spill it all unfiltered to her mm-hmm and she would gimme feedback. And one of the things she did encourage me to do a lot was actually open up to him more about it.

And so, you know, it could be that my nature is to hold back, hold back, hold back. So I was probably on one end of the spectrum and she was helping me nudge, nudge me a little bit more towards the kind of happy medium mm-hmm , um, which was definitely very uncomfortable for me. But I will say, I think it was helpful.

I mean, and I, I think it's one of those things too, like you're saying, like, it needs to be moderated, you know, especially like I would say at the beginning of a relationship, you, you probably will have a lot of, you know, you might have a lot of anxiety because of all the things that go dating, um, and the uncertainty and, you know, it's also excitement, which can feel like anxiety, which is really confusing, but, you know, so maybe though at the beginning of the relationship, you do wanna have more.

Of, um, a filter I guess, and, and kind of moderate what you, uh, open up about. However, I think the longer you're together, you know, the more it is kind of a continual unveiling of each other mm-hmm and, um, you know, I think there should be a level of comfort with revealing that, you know, when, and to, to, in, in various degrees.

Um, and I would say, um, like you said, you know, you said you talked to other people and I, and I. If, if you're able to talk to other people first about what you're going through, I think that's the ideal people. You trust people who maybe have been in a similar situation experience, similar challenges. Uh, I think if you are able to communicate with them first and then let them give you feedback about yeah.

You know, it might be good to bring this up with them. Or, you know, maybe you just hold off a little, you know, so to get some feedback before going to your significant other, I think is, is really helpful. And I like, thankfully did have that guidance, which served me well, but I do think it opened door sharing what I did with at least with Steven.

Like it, it, it opened the door for him to love me better. You know, like he, he was able to understand me at a deeper level. Something that was totally, totally unknown to him that he, he just had a very different background, very different experience growing up and it and things. So it did open the door for us to grow closer together, to understand each other better.

And for him to love me in a way that I was even better able. Able to receive. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I, I would totally agree with that. I should have clarified before. I don't think you should completely like withhold this experience. I just think, like you said, there needs to be some moderation.

Ideally you're taking it to other people first. And the main reason I was. Saying that is, I think it's important to let your emotions grow and develop because sometimes there can be a tendency. If you like feel any bit of anxiety kind of going off, the whole idea is that there should be peace. and so the first sense of anxiety or lack of peace, we might have this tendency to be like, oh, I need to talk to them.

I need to tell them about this where I, I think there needs to be a little bit of space there. Like you were saying where it's like, well, let me see where this goes. I don't need to act on it right away. And I remember in another relationship in college, uh, having a similar experience, it was probably about six months into the relationship.

Uh, there had been anxiety, you know, at different points, but there was especially a point where I would. Kind of questioned it and thought like, oh gosh, maybe this isn't meant to be. And my tendency was to, you know, kind of rush and bring that to the other person. But then I realized, you know, maybe I should just sit on this a little bit, you know, think about it, pray about it, talk with people who can guide me and then I'll approach them.

And that's kind of what I was getting at before. I think it is wise to use that sort of a filter. Where you never share anything and you're not vulnerable to the person cuz that's unhealthy. That's not good. Um, but to the point where you're not just saying any, everything in anything that comes on your mind or your heart, anything that you're feeling.

So definitely a balance. And I think what you said, the starting point really is to. Understand your tendencies. If your tendency is more to be maybe overly open with someone, then maybe you need to pull it back a little bit more. But like you said, Marin, if your tendency is to be more closed off, which that was me too, then perhaps we are the people who need to share a little bit more, then maybe we feel ready.

To share. So I think there is that, um, that balance, but I think there is value in letting your emotions like develop and grow and not just thinking that one evening, I felt that one thing. And therefore I need to have a serious conversation with this person. Yeah. I definitely think there should be a level of discerning before, you know, necessarily like not to overthink it to death, but.

Definitely letting things settle a little bit before you bring it to the other person. But I remember something that was super helpful that I did share with him pretty early on was my tendency to spiral, like to, for him to say or do something that. Would send my alarm BES going off and I would withdraw and I would just shut down, down.

And when I was able to like tell him that that was something that I experienced, he was able to then identify times when. That was happening and it just, or at least just asked me, are you spiraling right now? You know? And then it helped so much to bring me out of it, to, to, for him to like, have access to that.

So, I mean, and I don't know how early that was and, you know, might, might have been, might have been later in the relationship that I'm remembering, but when you let in, you know, the other person a little bit, little by little. Where you struggle in relationships, like it allows other person to help carry that with you and to, yeah.

Love you in a way. Is healing. Yeah. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And I really wish looking back to that relationship. I mentioned in the book late high school, early college, I really wish I would've been more vulnerable with her. I think it would've helped a ton. And that was one of the things that ultimately did help the relationship to become better healthier was when I started opening up a little bit more.

So, yeah. I, I agree. It it's definitely nuance. It's something that's not. Easy to just say, oh, just do this or just do that. But there are absolutely different things to consider. And I think in one way, it's like this whole discernment for people like us is more about navigating emotions than choosing like a way of life, which kind of sinks it really.

Yeah. Doesn't seem like it should be this way. Absolutely. I wanted to go back to something that you said too there that the early relationships you had though, they weren't meant to be, it doesn't mean that they weren't supposed to happen. I think that's an awesome way of saying, and I would totally agree in my relationships as well.

Like the ones that didn't work out, um, they obviously weren't meant to be, but I was glad that they happened. So, you know, I think it goes for both of us when we're recording this. We're not saying that, oh gosh, you know, we really missed the train on that one. Like, because we were anxious, we missed our vocation.

Saying that some people I think get that idea. Um, most of the time that's very false, but, um, but I think it is important to say, and I would just relate to, to what you said before and totally agree with. Yeah, it can be, it can be really tough, but the more, yeah, the more experience you get with it, like an awareness, I think is just really, really huge.

Yeah, absolutely. Like the awareness that you had that, you know, at the root of this, like your counselor said that not in your stomach, that stomach ache was really a trauma response that was pointing back to your distrust of men, which had to do with the breakdown of your family, your parents' marriage and your family.

So that awareness, I think, goes so far in helping. Talk yourself off the ledge, thinking that, oh gosh, everything is going to hell. Like, this is not good. Like this relationship is over just kind of catastrophizing. I think that's the word? Um, this whole, yeah, this, this whole drama that's unfolding inside of you.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I think, you know, with, with people like us, we have a lot of fear. Um, obviously this we're talking, you know, anxiety. And so the idea of dating someone and then breaking up sounds just like the end of the world. It's too hard. I can't do this. At least that was my experience. Like.

Remember the idea of the relationship ending was just mm-hmm it just felt like, oh my gosh, like I can't, I can't do this. I can't handle this. Mm-hmm um, I wanted it to be a sure thing and that's just not how life works. So it was really. That navigating that fear can be super, super tough, um, because it just feels so risky.

And especially if the other person doesn't have that experience, you kind of feel isolated a little bit in your, in your anxiety, in your fear about the relationship. But I remember, you know, my therapist kind of encouraging me and saying, you know, and if you break up this isn't it that then it, that then it there's more to the story like that, that person wasn't for you.

Like it was, there's more to, to your journey than just the break, like the breakup won't end everything, you know, there's more that comes after it. Yeah. But it can be, it can be really. Overwhelming, um, and alarming when you're entering in your relationship to accept that reality of reality of yeah. Like this might not work out and that will be painful, right?

No, it, it is such a difficult thing. Just kind of anticipating that pain. Cuz I know for me, I was so loyal in my relationships in the sense that I almost treated it like a marriage. It was like, I can. Walk away from this person, because like you said, in a way it almost felt like a divorce because I, you know, just was thinking, oh gosh, I'm repeating, you know, what happened in my parents' relationship?

And I didn't want that. And so there, you know, there might even been times in some of my relationships where. I maybe should have stepped back sooner or broke things off. And I didn't, because of that fair sense of loyalty, like, no, I will not repeat what happened, you know, in my parents' marriage, I'm not gonna give up on this person.

Like, you know, mom and dad did on each other. So I think that can cause discernment issues. Too, cuz we maybe hold on to something longer than we should, which is, which is really difficult. So I, I definitely relate to you just like dreading a breakup, but I think what your, you know, counselor said is just so helpful and even playing out that ending in your head, I found can be helpful just thinking through, okay, this could.

Then what then what? And thinking of the, then what, for me that has helped me kind of overcome a lot of the fear, cuz then I realized, well, you know, it will be painful. It is scary, but I'll survive and I'll be okay. And is it this, isn't the end of the world that you said? Yeah. And I think after dating a couple guys and it not working out when I was dating my husband.

I had a sense a little, it was still scary. It was still really hard. But I do remember having that sense of like, I've been through some really tough breakups and it sucked, but like I got through it and I, I think I'm stronger because of it. So, and grew grew from that experience. So it kind of gave me a level, a sense of, I guess, security in a sense that I had endured that.

And, you know, and I was here and I was okay. You made it no same, same here. And kind of on, on a little bit of a different note, I just wanted to say to anyone who maybe is comparing their experience of a relationship to someone who comes from a very intact and secure home, don't do that. Uh, I did that and I just think it's really unhelpful.

Again, you ultimately, there should be peace in your relationship, but you might have to fight through a lot of crap to get there. You know, just like Marin and I are saying you might be dealing with some serious anxiety issues or depression, or just struggles with uncertainty and all that. So if you're looking at yourself and saying, well, I am struggling with this and this friend of mine.

It's just like on cloud nine in, in her relationship and his relationship. And I just don't see something must be wrong with me. Maybe something is, and that that's basically what we're saying here. It's like, don't compare like apples or oranges. Don't make it harder on yourself than it already is by saying like, well, I'm not having that same experience as someone else.

And I think, and some level, I just wanna say that I think everyone has some anxiety in relationships that there's like Miranda was saying. There's a lot of uncertainty just by the very nature of a dating relationship. But I think it is important to give yourself some extra grace and not expect your experience to match the experience of someone who comes from a very secure, intact home.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think that was kind of a challenge in my dating relationships that the guys I dated, you know, were very blessed. In that they came from really beautiful families that, um, were intact and secure. And so they, it really was a challenge for them to understand, to step into my experience of, of brokenness and, you know, the woundedness anxiety.

Yeah, definitely. It's tough. And I think even in marriage, you know, if you marry someone who comes from a very different background, you know, your worldview is just totally different. And I think it's, you know, can be mutually, you know, it can be healing for you to be with someone, you know, from a secure home, but it can also be challenging.

Totally. I had the exact same experience. I think every girl that I dated came from St as you like, came from a intact family. And so it was difficult for them to totally understand where I was coming from. And, uh, I, yeah, I remember, I think having similar conversations as we're having now and it not going so well, cuz them thinking well, You feel anxious about this?

Well then maybe it's not meant to be where in reality, you know, there was a lot more underneath the surface, so yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Even in marriage, it can be, it can be really difficult to, uh, to kind of wrestle with all this and explain where you're coming from without it seeming like it's a, it's a major issue.

It's just something that people like us have to roll with, which is unfortunate, but it is the way that it is. I, uh, another thing that helped me. Was grounding techniques, especially when I felt so anxious. So for some of you who are familiar with psychology, you know, grounding techniques where it's basically using your senses to kind of pull you out of your head where, you know, anxiety, a lot of times ends in like racing thoughts, right.

You just get stuck in your head so much. And so you really need to use your body in ways that. Get you out of your head. And so for me, sometimes it was as simple, especially if I was in the midst of like a situation where I felt it with the, the girl or girls I dated, uh, I would even just touch a table or something.

And, you know, if you can imagine I'm doing this right now with my desk, you can imagine just like running your hand up and down the table or grabbing it or whatever, just getting. Out of your head by using your senses. So that's another tip for you guys listening. If this is something you're dealing with, give that a try and you can do that with all your senses, whether it's your sight or smell, whatever you can use, those grounding techniques.

Again, just like it sounds, it kind of brings you down to reality because in, in our heads we can kind of go crazy. We can think up all these different scenarios, think of all these different problems, which may or. Be there. And so it's important that we stay objective and that's where getting other people involved is helpful too.

But these grounding techniques I found to be, to be really useful. Have you Miranda, have you used stuff like that? I think that's still a struggle for me. I think I've learned a little bit about. You know, kind of the practice of mindfulness and one of the tactics that they encourage is using your physical senses to ground yourself.

I think I still wrestle with that. Some, I think that when, um, I'm like something triggers me, um, triggers my fear. It's very, it's so intense. You know, the physiological response is so intense and then also your brain is just like, it just. Takes over and you, you know, there might be like, I might go, you know, eight minutes without saying anything, but my mind is going in a million different directions and taking me down a lot of rabbit holes that are not, not good and not healthy.

So I think that's still more of a struggle. I think what has helped me more has been just vocalizing. It of saying, yeah. Like I, I I'm spiraling right now, you know? And, um, just the act of putting it in words kind of stops me in my tracks a little bit and helps me bring me out of that. But. Um, I think if you are able to use the grounding techniques, like I think that that's a huge tool that can be super powerful.

It's just a matter of, I guess, practice. Yeah. No, that's great advice. So if it works for you guys, maybe give it a try, see if it works for you. And if it does use 'em, if not, there just might be something else out there that can help you. And hopefully some of our content has, you know, directed you to, to those different things.

Marida one other thing. Topic is just the desire that we have for a hundred percent certainty. I've noticed this trend in people from broken families that we just desire that certainty more than other people. And certainly some of this is like a temperament thing, personality thing. Some people just want more certainty.

Some people are okay without as much certainty in life. But I think, uh, especially when it comes to relationships for people who come from broken homes, Really struggle with this. And what I've seen is a lot of people like us, they end up just being really stuck in life and not moving ahead in relationships because they're looking for that.

Like, Perfect fairytale ending just they want the right person. They wanna know that it's right. And they want to have no problems or feel no anxiety. And man, that sounds great, but I've never talked to anyone who who's had that. So I think it's important that we kind of acknowledge that this. Struggle for people like us.

And I'm interested to hear your thoughts, especially like, why is that? Why do you think we struggle with this so much? I think, you know, we've experienced the fallout of what happened when things don't work out and how painful it can be with, with marriage. And so we're traumatized, you know, we, we wanna avoid that pain at all.

And so it becomes a very, very fear is a very powerful motivator. And I think when it comes to dating or making big decisions, like we, we don't wanna be burned again, ESP, you know, because we've experienced it in such a deep way. Yeah. We, we want to. Avoid that at all costs. So true. And the one thing I would add as well is I think I've noticed this tri people who come from broken families is that we de desire that a hundred percent certainty, because we feel like we have no safety net.

We have no backup. We feel like there's no one there for us. So many of us just feel so alone when our parents' marriage breaks apart, our family breaks down. We feel like we have to just figure life out by ourselves. No, one's got our back. Even if maybe they do have our back. If something. Bad were to happen.

We feel like they won't. And so we end up just going through life, just kinda looking out for ourselves. And so I think that's why these decisions, especially big decisions, like a relationship or vocation can feel so scary. And we want so much certainty, which can leave us feeling stuck because we just feel like we have no plan B.

We have no safety. Yeah, we feel like, um, no, one's got our back that we have to, um, we can't mess up. We can't afford to make a mistake, so we're just, we're extra cautious. We're extra risk adverse. And I think there are statistics that children are divorced. Like just don't take as many risks as, um, you know, both in relationships, but also in life in general, we just tend to be more cautious.

We tend to watch our step a lot more and I definitely find this to be the case with myself. Like even. Small decisions. And I think we, we have kind of a couple sections on, on decision making in the book. Things that shouldn't be a big deal. I ruminate over a lot more than, than is appropriate because I wanna make sure this is right.

And so I definitely think that that's something to be aware of. Absolutely. It's a real struggle and it will hold you back in life. And. Not only that it will just leave you with a ton of regret I've realized. So I think it's really good to surround yourself with people who will push you to take risks, like good risks.

Um, but also to just remember that if you do fail, what happens, that's kind of the way's I think, to overcome so much of that fear is just mentally to go through that exercise of like playing it out, like, okay, if I do. what happens? How bad is it gonna get? And in some cases it might be really bad, then you can think, okay, if that happens, what am I gonna do to recover from it?

And then also a third question. This comes from Tim Ferris. He had this little exercise to kind of navigate your fears. You should also ask the question of, well, what can I do to reduce the chance that it will fail? So again, the questions are okay if this fails, like how bad is it gonna get, what can I do to mitigate those risks?

And then if, if a worst case scenario does happen, what do I do to recover? And so if you think through those and give that some time. What I've found is it kind of takes the wind out of the fear and it makes it much more manageable to go through and take that risk because in the end you can see, well, it's not as scary as I thought.

Absolutely. Just putting it out in the open and either, you know, like you said, reasoning through it on your own, or, you know, maybe taking it to someone else again, it makes it so much less scary and you realize, okay, The end result of this, even if I fail, is most likely not catastrophic is most likely not UN fixable.

Um, there's very little that can't be repaired in some way. And even if it is something that, you know, maybe you can't undo, it is something that you can, you know, have a contingency plan for. So I think it's really important to kind of examine that fear and like dig a little deeper. And instead of.

letting it dictate, you know, because it's so loud and it feels so strong, you know, kind of ignoring that a little bit, pushing it to a side a little bit, which can be super tough, but then. Putting it aside enough that you can examine it a little bit closer because a lot of times, you know, the fear is just fear and it's not really just in, in reality.

That's so true. Miranda. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a great conversation, uh, to everyone listening. We really hope this has been helpful for you. And, uh, in Thero I'll give you some more info on how to pick up the book if you'd like to Miranda. Thanks again. Yeah, of course.

I really hope that was helpful for you. One question for you to think about after this episode is over, is how has your anxiety or your uncertainty held you back from good things in your life? How has it kept you from discerning or making decisions about your life's calling or maybe relationships that you've been in?

And most importantly, what are you gonna do about it? What's your plan to overcome it? Give that some thought. Again, you can get the first chapters for free from my new book. It's not your fault. A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Enter your name and your email. We'll send you the first chapters for free. Again, restored ministry.com/books. Or just click on the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned are the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 53. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce as, or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, it's definitely gonna help them as well.

Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

How to Successfully Navigate Your Parents' Divorce (Big News!)

2 minute read.

Here at Restored we have some big news, and we’re really excited about it.

There is a lot to deal with when it comes to your parents’ divorce or separation. And yet, there isn’t much out there addressing the many unique struggles faced by teens and young adults from broken homes.

We wanted to help fill this void, which is why we’re extremely pumped to introduce our new book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce.

In this book, we address 33 pressing questions faced by teens and young adults from broken homes regarding the difficulties that stem from their parents’ divorce or separation.

We give advice on topics such as how to cope, healing, dating, handling anxiety and depression, making life decisions, and having difficult conversations with your parents. We sincerely hope that you will find it helpful.

To give you a taste of what you can expect from the book (launching September 21), we’ll be posting content from the book itself on the blog.

Please spread the word, we know there are a lot of people out there who will benefit from reading this material. And let us know what you think! We would love to get some feedback here or in the comments below.

Without further ado, here’s question number five from the book:

How can I stop feeling like my parents’ divorce was my fault? 

You aren’t alone in feeling this way. In fact, most people like us feel this way —‌ at least for some time. When my own parents split, I blamed myself too. I felt like I could have prevented it from happening. If only I had said this or done that, perhaps they would not have broken apart.

Why do we blame ourselves? Usually, it is because we feel powerless in a situation we didn’t choose or cause. Feeling completely helpless, we grasp for some level of control by convincing ourselves that we could have done something to avoid it all. An even more difficult struggle is accepting the fact that one or both parents, whom we love, would do something that could hurt us so much. It’s easier to blame ourselves than to blame them. It’s our way of protecting them. Developmentally as children, we lack the cognitive capacity to move out of black-and-white thinking. Forced to choose between ourselves and our caregivers, we will almost always accept the blame. This is done in hopes of maintaining a good image of the people we need to trust in order to feel safe in our unpredictable world. Further, even if we’ve never consciously blamed ourselves, we may have done it unconsciously which may present itself in feeling that we are somehow bad.

Whether you or maybe someone else wrongly placed the blame on you, it’s all a debilitating lie. Believing it will only harm you. Please, hear me: 

Your parents’ divorce is not your fault. 

There’s nothing you did to cause it. There’s nothing you could have done to prevent it. In fact, the problems that caused the split were likely present in your parents’ marriage long before you were even born. Sadly, there is nothing you can do to fix it, either. The responsibility is not yours, even if you want it to be. 

The uncomfortable truth is that our parent(s) choices hurt us, even if that wasn’t their intention. In fact, they probably thought they were doing what was best for themselves and for you. In order to heal, we have to first accept this truth. This is not about blame as much as it is about acknowledging the responsibility of those whose job it was to protect us.

Next time you feel responsible for what happened to your parents’ marriage and your family, remember: It wasn’t your fault. You couldn’t have prevented it. There’s nothing you can do to fix it. It is not your fault. 

Instead, accept the fact that your parents, ‌who would die for you, made choices that harmed you. That was wrong. There’s no excuse for it. Their actions damaged you and your family. That’s no small deal. In order to heal, you need to face that in all its heaviness. Then, give yourself space to grieve the loss. By doing that, you’ll be able to forgive your parents and hopefully even build a healthier relationship with them.

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Stay tuned for more content from our book, It’s Not Your Fault. You can learn more about the book and get the first chapters FREE here today! We couldn’t be more excited to share this project with you.

Here’s to undoing the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, one person at a time.

How Can I Cope in Healthy Ways Instead of Unhealthy Ways?

4 minute read.

As we recently revealed here on the blog, our new book, It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce, is live on Amazon!

We’re so confident this resource will be invaluable to teens and young adults from broken homes, as it shares practical advice on so many of the struggles that they face as a result of their parents’ divorce or separation.

Some of the struggles addressed include facing anxiety and depression, experiencing fear of love and relationships, developing an aversion to conflict, and more.

Today we share question 14 from the book regarding healthy ways of coping. We really hope this is helpful to you or someone you know from a broken home and that you will consider getting the first chapters FREE today!

How can I cope in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways?

After my parents separated, I acted out. I became bitter, angry, anxious, and depressed. In an attempt to numb the pain, I turned to pleasure. A friend introduced me to pornography. Immediately, I felt amazed yet ashamed at what I saw. It quickly led to a habit that offered an escape from the pain and problems in my life. 

Though it offered a distraction, I noticed that in the moment it felt so good, but afterward I just felt so empty. Even at a young age, I knew I wanted to be happy. Porn wasn’t making me happy, so I needed to change. 

The most immediate thing that helped was getting new friends, which is easier said than done. I realized my sports buddies weren’t good for me. Luckily, I met new friends who were genuinely happy. Whatever they had, I wanted it. I discovered that the source of their joy was their faith. They were devout Catholics. In an attempt to be like them, I began to learn my faith, develop intimacy with God through prayer and the Sacraments, and even build virtue in my life. The people you surround yourself with are very important. I love the quote, “You can’t change the people around you, but you can change the people around you.” 

Even with good friends, life is full of stress, intense emotions, and difficult situations. When you experience those difficult things, you react instinctively. That’s the definition of coping. Automatically, you usually turn to unhealthy things or use good things excessively. Why? It’s simple. When you feel bad, you want to feel good —‌ even if it hurts you in the long run. You want the momentary relief — a distraction, an escape, a way to bury your feelings or the reality of the situation. 

The first solution to unhealthy coping is developing “emotional agility.” In her book, Emotional Agility, Harvard psychologist Dr. Susan David explains that emotional agility has two parts: 1) The ability to face and feel your emotions, and 2) Choosing a response in a way that aligns with your deepest held beliefs. How do you develop emotional agility? Dr. David gives a few tips.

First, she says to create a space between stimulus and response. As quoted before, psychiatrist Viktor Frankl said, “Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” In other words, if you want freedom and growth, you need self-mastery. To do so, simply lengthen the space between when you feel something and when you respond. In that space, build discipline to choose what is good and healthy for you instead of what is harmful.

Second, she says to remember that you are not your thoughts. You are not your feelings. You have thoughts. You have feelings. But you are not them and they are not you. They describe how you’re doing, not who you are. And they certainly don’t control you. With practice, you can learn to control your response to those emotions so they don't own you. 

Third, she suggests labeling your emotions. She shares a story about a client named Thomas, who was a business executive. Upon arriving to the office one day, he had a seizure. The paramedics took him to the hospital. After running tests, the doctors had good news: It was extremely unlikely for Thomas to have another seizure. But he wouldn’t listen. Thomas became so obsessed with the fear of having another seizure that he lost his job, his wife, and even his home. 

Years later, he was living on the streets when Dr. Susan met with him in therapy. She noticed that when asked how things were going, he would almost always reply with “fine.” One day, she asked him about his mother. She had been there for him when everyone else abandoned him. When Dr. David asked him how things were going with his mom, Thomas just replied, “Fine. She died.” Dr. David was blown away. At that moment, she realized that Thomas suffered from a condition called alexithymia, the inability to identify and put emotions into words. As a result, he continued to struggle and feel stuck in life. 

To avoid getting stuck emotionally, Dr. David advises to first learn to recognize your emotions. When you feel angry, acknowledge it to yourself. Then, put your emotions into words by writing or speaking about them with someone else. Describe them in as much detail as possible. That alone is extremely helpful in avoiding unhealthy coping that you’ll later regret. 

Similarly, allow yourself to feel your feelings. Don’t bury them. Don’t ignore them. Face them. Instead of running from them, sit with those messy and uncomfortable feelings. If you ignore them, they tend to be prolonged. Like a weed that isn’t pulled by its root, they’ll keep sprouting up.

When trying to stop unhealthy coping behaviors, remember there are three parts to a habit: 1) The cue or trigger, 2) the routine or behavior, and 3) the reward. Eating fast food is a good example of how the three parts work. When you feel hungry you experience the cue or trigger. Going to get food at a fast food restaurant and eating that food is the routine or behavior. The reward is the pleasure from tasting the food, the feeling of being full, and the nutrients that your body gets.

To change a bad habit, it’s almost impossible to stop cold turkey. The neural pathway has already been carved into your brain. As a result, you still experience the trigger (e.g. hunger) and you still desire the reward (e.g. tasty food, feeling full, etc). To change, you have to substitute the routine or behavior with a better action that offers a similar reward. To stop eating unhealthy fast food, for example, you need to substitute that behavior with eating healthy food that offers a similar reward —‌ ‌it tastes good, you feel full, and your body gets the nutrients it needs. 

Also, don’t get discouraged when you relapse. It happens. Since your brain is so accustomed to that behavior, it’s easy to fall back into old ways. Get yourself back up and begin again like you never fell. Discouragement destroys progress more than mistakes do.

For more practical ideas on coping in healthy instead of unhealthy ways, see the bonus material when you purchase It’s Not Your Fault.

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Thank you for reading. Buy the book or get the first chapters FREE today. The book includes bonus material that gives you even more in-depth guidance about healthy coping and ideas on how to do so.

Here’s to undoing the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, one person at a time.